Women in Literature Export

How are women portrayed in literature?

This discussion will examine
how women appear in fiction and non fiction,
both by male and female authors,
and compare and contrast various issues
pertaining to women in literature.
Come tell us YOUR opinions!

What aspect of the portrayal of women in modern literature irritates you the most and why?

We are now taking Nominations for a book to read together in which we hope to examine how women are portrayed.
What is YOUR suggestion??

Women in Literature ~ Book Nominations
Book	Author
*The Handmaid's Tale*	Margaret Atwood
*Madame Secretary*	Madeline Albright
*Little Women*	Louisa May Alcott
*The Robber Bridegroom*	Eudora Welty
*Herland*	Charlotte Perkins Gilman
*Mercury 13*	Martha Ackmann
*Smilla's Sense of Snow*	Peter Hoeg
*Moll Flanders*	Daniel Defoe
*The Awakening*	Kate Chopin
*In This Our Life*	Ellen Glasgow
*The Yellow Wallpaper 11/1/03*	Charlotte Perkins Gilman
*The Royal Slave*	Aphra Behn
*Middlemarch: A Study of English Provincial Life*	George Eliot
*Persuasion*	Jane Austen
*Sense and Sensibility*	Jane Austen
*Pride and Prejudice*	Jane Austen
*Revolution From Within*	Gloria Steinem
*Moving Beyond Words*	Gloria Steinem
*Coming of Age in Samoa*	Margaret Mead
*Growing Up in New Guinea (1930)*	Margaret Mead
*Slouching Towards Bethlehem*	Joan Didion
*Eichmann in Jerusalem; A Report on the Banality of Evil*	Hannah Arendt
*Metropolitan Life*	Fran Lebowitz
*Social Studies*	Fran Lebowitz
*The Passion of Ayn Rand*	Branden
*From Strength to Strength*	Sara Henderson
*A Room Of One's Own*	Virginia Woolf
*Pope Joan*	Donna Woolfolk Cross
*Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas*	Morgan Llywelyn
*A Tree Grows in Brooklyn*	Maggie Smith
*The Red Tent*	Anita Diamant
*"Hedda Gabler" "The Doll's House"*	Henrik Ibsen
*Effi Briest*	Theodor Fontane
*Wuthering Heights*	Emily Bronte
*The Whole Woman*	Germaine Greer
*Writing A Woman's Life*	Carolyn Heilbrun
*The Color of Water*	James MxBride
*Yellow Raft in Blue Water*	Michael Dorris
*Sappho: A New Translation*	Mary Barnard
*America's Women*	Gail Collins
*Bushwomen*	Laura Flanders
The Last Gift of Time: Life Beyond Sixty Scheduled for 1/02/04	Carolyn Heilbrun
.	.

Women Nominated for Further Study
Click above
Comments? Write Ginny

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I'd like to welcome all of you to our newest General Discussion, Women in Literature.

This discussion is the direct result of many requests over the years to look at:

How women are portrayed in literature and

Women Authors and their voices.

I think it has a lot of potential, where would you all like to start?

Hopefully we can look at specific instances of how women are portrayed and then choose a book to discuss on a particular theme of Women in Literature: the sky's the limit.

Where would you like to begin, we want to hear from YOU!

Thanks for dropping by,

ginny

Boy, Ginny, you get home and hit the ground running!!! As a result of our discussion of All is Vanity, I'm reading House of Mirth and really enjoying it. My first Edith Wharton (should I be embarrassed to admit that? LOL) I'm just finished The Secret Life of Bees and have been looking at other books by Sue Monk Kidd... she has some interesting characters in Bees. She also has done books on the feminine spirit... I think it's so intersting you've chosen this topic, I've been thinking about this a lot lately... great minds, huh?

I can hardly wait for all these great minds to get here and come up with our method!! I'm game for whatever!!

Lou

Hi Ginny,

I bet this will be exciting. It will be a new learning experience for me. Will the discussion be limited to a certain time period in literature and history? Will it include non fiction and fictional characters?

Anyway you do it will be wunnerful, wunnerful!! I love your heading! This is exciting. I am repeating myself. One of my questions is answered in the heading.

Ginny, your energy is so inspiring. All this and Oxford and grapes, too.

I like the idea of Women Authors and their voices as a starting point, especially those who have brought forth change. Harriet Beecher Stowe, for one, Ida Tarbell and Rachel Carson as other examples. The portrayal topic is good, too -- what are some books that show a distinct difference in treatment?

Lou2, you're a school librarian, are you not? I'm off topic now, but here's my trivia input for the day. There was a blurb in today's Seattle paper about Courtney Love claiming to be Marlan Brando's granddaughter. Appears her grandmother Paula Fox (The Slave Dancer) is claiming an affair with him during the 1940's.

Pedln, How fun!! Now you know Paula Fox could not possibly have been naughty!!! Children's authors don't do that!! LOL I tried so hard to read Slave Dancer and simply could not do it... too much realism there for me. Did you read it???

Lou

I am in.. What a topic. I am interested in both women authors and how women are portrayed in fiction. There are times when reading that I am sitting there wondering if the author has ever even met a woman. It is scary the misinformation out there on how most women think or do. We also have women authors who seem to delight in making sure that their characters act more like male than female.. Again I dont know why. A nice homely author would be Louisa Mae Alcott. She did famous things like "Little Women", but also potboilers since she was the only one in her family to make money and they needed money to live. I always think of her as similar to Charles Dickens.. Not as prolific, but writing to put bread on the table. Her female characters follow certain patterns and I remember thinking the first time I read "Women,Men, etc." That Jo was the oddest person I had ever heard of. Now I realize that she simply patterned Jo after herself,but when I was about 10, that would never occur. Oops sorry going on and on on my hobby horse. Still I am looking forward to discussing all sorts of people and characters.

Pedln, I like the idea of learning about authors like Harriet Beecher Stowe. Through her words she created a powerful change. Her book speaks clearly about the painful life of a slave. I think she met Abe Lincoln, and he spoke about a little woman who created a great book. I believe she had five children too.

There are two poets I would like to discuss Emily Dickinson and Phyliss Wheatley. Ms. Wheatley was a slave, and Emily Dickinson never left her home or at least, not often. Still, their words resonate in our spirits. Both women, I think, worked within boundaries created by themselves or boundaries created by others.

As far as men authors, I would like to think about or discuss Frederick Douglass' work, his autobiography. Some of the people who owned him in slavery were kind and willing to teach him how to write and to read.

I would like to focus on ethnicity. There are so many wonderful groups of people in American and outside of America. Each group has its own share of great writers.

I have never read Harriet Beecher Stowe I should like to. Can you give me a title?

Women today fit into so many different moulds. There is no stereotype as we still have homemakers, we have women who choose like me to stay single after widowhood and enjoy their life, we have women who head industry, we have Women Prime Ministers now. Such diversity!

I am looking forward to this discussion. I only noticed it this afternoon!

Carolyn

Hello all. Looks like an interesting new discussion. We need to figure out a focus. Perhaps one will come out of our conversation.

Carolyn: Harriet Beecher Stowe--Uncle Tom's Cabin. It was vastly popular. Romantic novel about slavery, very much against it. It was made into a play and many Americans saw it. When President Lincoln met Stowe, who was a tiny woman, maybe five feet tall, he said, "So this is the little woman who started this big war." I'm quoting from memory, but that's close.

Thank you Maryal. I have actually read Uncle Toms Cabin but did not remember the author. I read it when I was about 8yrs old. My cousin had it in his library.I know I cried bitterly at Eva's death and the cruelty of the overseer. I intend to buy a copy for my library - the price is very reasonable at Barnes and Noble.

Carolyn

does good junk qualify as literature. I've been reading books where modern women are the heros, usually professionals of some sort as in Lisa Scottaline's group of women lawyers, sue harrisons eskimo women, jean auels children of the earth seies. I just finished Shelters of Stone which deals with prehistory women. Then there is Elizabeth Berg with modern women and relationships. wonderful topic. I didn't realize I was so into it myself. . . . claire /winsum

I think that non classical authors are in some ways better indicators than classical. I just finished rereading "Fair and Tender Ladies" by Lee Smith. It was originally published in the mid 80's. It is the story through letters of a mountain woman.. From the time she was young until her death. The book and Lee Smith have a good deal to say about the women of the mountains. I like books about women that carry me into a different world than myself. On the other hand, I am not interested in books about or by Frederick Douglas. Tried to read one one time and never made it past the 20 page.. Sorry.. just not my cup of tea. I like ethnic books, but only ones that are current and address the modern world.

Hi Stephanie and Claire,

Claire, you and I like the same authors, E. Berg, Lisa Scottoline and Sue Harrison. I have not tried Auel. I have been giving her books a thought or two.

Stephanie, I found Frederick Douglass' narrative easy and quick to read and worth reading. I respect him because he came from slavery and overcame many obstacles. However, I became disillusioned with him after reading Douglass'Women. If the novel was correct, he lacked a certain respect for women. He came off as a womanizer. If he were alive, I would have slapped him a time or two. I am not being nice.

I like Lee Smith too. I love southern authors. These authors have a sense of home, family and age old principles.

Wow, this is wonderful, thank you ALL, I am afraid to post and break the spell!!

I agree with Maryal we need a focus here, you all have raised so many intriguing points: books by women who brought about change, books by women, books about women, ethnicity, books where you wonder if the author ever MET a woman (hahah Steph) possible portrayal of real women (non fiction) in a slanted or biased way (all authors present a bias, many people don't realize that when reading non fiction), the difference in the way women USED to be portrayed and the way they are portrayed now, wow!~!

I'd say we have a couple of years here, will get the authors named by all of you in the heading by tomorrow (maybe not Frederick Douglass, but I'm going to alert Ella and Harold to the need to feature some ethnic things, I totally agree, George Washington Carver (AND don't miss Gandhi coming in December)....good good GOOD remarks, every one of you.

I will have to follow your leads and your suggestions: this is an area of literature I need more information and input on: I hope my own perceptions will be raised by your comments.

Lou, how are you enjoying House of Mirth? What choices does that heroine have in life? How is she portrayed?

I wonder if an acceptible place to begin or to focus might be how we perceive women are portrayed, generally in literature being written today (we have to start somewhere??) and then we can maybe read something, by one of the authors you all have suggested, vote on it, and see how it compares or contrasts, if it does?

I know when we read All is Vanity recently the subject of how women were presented was raised: I didn't see it, and would like to discuss it, but not all of us have read Vanity, and we're not likely to have read the same books...soooo... do you think we might try this?

You select from something you've read recently, or bring here an article on the web, maybe? And say, well...for instance, Jeffrey Eugenides, in his new book (the 2003 Pulitzer Prize winning Middlesex), calls his first love interest The Obscure Object and refers to her throughtout as The Object, I find that disgusting, does that say anything about anything or something??

And let's talk generally about the example YOU gave and how woman are portrayed in fiction being written in the last...how long? How many years?

When we can get something up about fiction (OR non fiction, magazine articles, etc., ) let's see if we can (this is beginning to be exciting) look thru what's said to what's being said, (if you all think this might be a worthy focus beginnning) if not, say so, am flying blind here, and let's discuss!!!

THEN we can have a basis for comparison. I'm going back thru our Book Club Online discussions, remember the one about the woman at the picnic? She drove me insane, just insane, want to go back and bring here here and figure out why!

How do you think women in Fiction or Non Fiction are being portrayed in modern writing? Books, articles, newspapers, etc? (help me out here, what's "modern," for instance, and we'll get a Question for Your Interest to Focus on in the heading till September 1??)

Thank you all so much, this looks like something we can all learn from, I sure will!

ginny

Ginny, I would like to add the name Isabel Allende to the group of women writers. I happened to see her on Booktv a couple of weeks ago. She is very humorous, a fun speaker to listen too. She talked about the Chilean culture, all new knowledge to me.

Hats, I like Allende a lot. Her writings are of another culture, very informative. I have to mention some women writers from the 30's, 40's. Must mention Anais Nin who wrote of women's psychology being different from men's in her many diaries. After her death, previously censored stuff was published, she had quite a wild life! Virginia Woolf, Rebecca West, Colette, to name a few.

More currently, Maya Angelou, May Sarton, Anne Lamott, Anne Tyler. I also like the new women mystery writiers, Lisa Scottoline (as mentioned), Evanovich...can't think of her first name! Laurie R. King is a new favorite. There are so many great women writers. I do enjoy the point of view, a seeing of the world, if you will through a woman's eyes.

Hi Paige,

I love so many of the authors you have named. I remember falling in love with diaries, and then, falling in love with the diaries of Anais Nin and Lindberg's wife too. I can't remember her first name. I love May Sarton' diaries too. I always hoped their words, their way of penning daily thoughts would enter my mind, maybe by osmosis.

Hats, it's Ann Morrow Lindberg. I read all of her stuff too. Biggest success for her was "Gift from the Sea." Huge revelation just this week about the Lindbergs. Seems as if he had another family stashed somewhere, what a disappointment that was to hear.

I have kept a journal for almost 10 years now. Nothing to publish, but a place to vent and marvel and cry and laugh.. I love reading journals written by women. the Anne Morrow Lindburg ( I think there were three or four volumes) were wonderful "Hour of Gold,Hour of Lead" was particularly of interest. I always wondered if I could have written of the disappearance and death of a child with such delicacy.. Of course I couldnt, but the concept has led me to look in so many places for different people. I loved Beryl Markhams autobiography.. Even though I have since read another biography who insists on giving the credit to one of her husbands. I did not agree but am not an expert.. It was just the autobiography seemed to echo the way Beryl lived. I also read several years ago ( and cannot remember the name of it) a book that had several diaries, all excerpts from women going west back in the wagon train days. What horrors they lived through. They were so brave and so alone. I also liked a small series.. Possibly a Vilhelm Moberg?? The Immigrants.. Very very pure, although it was fiction.. Still you got a real feeling for the isolation involved in settling the far west.

Stephanie, oh yes, Beryl Markham. Also, Isak Denison (Karen Blixen), Katherine Mansfield, Djuna Barnes, Vita Sackville-West, Rummer Godden.

I have kept journals for years and years, throw them out when the stack gets too high! Writing things down helps me with life! Sorry I left the "e" off of Anne Morrow Lindberg's name. With this subject of women writers, my mind gets way ahead of my typing fingers!

we're women if not published at least full of it...the stuff we are all concerned with. how about a discussion of excerpts frm our journals. some quite funny and illuminadting. who knows we may GET PUBLISHED. ...getting far afield here I know, but all of us keep writing here in the discussions and some of what we write is funny and interesting and even profound. , I wrote a journal from 1969 until the recent prsent and then threw most of it out. too personal for my kids to have to deal with after I'm gone. I still have stuff from 1981 and 1982 though. some handwrited in a scrawl and some typed and kept in a very thick looseleaf notebook.. writing is a great release. I wonder if these women writers saw it that way too. . , . claire

Hi Paige,

Thanks for jogging my memory.

Good question, Ginny… How are women portrayed in current literature??? I had to sit down and figure that one out. I looked at the books I’ve read in the past two months… and came to the conclusion that most of the books I’ve read have strong and/or professional women. I read lots of mystery books… Julie Smith, J A Jance, Susan W Albert, Kathy Reich, Lisa Scottoline, and Nevada Barr all have strong female main characters… not perfect, but they face adversity and challenge and “win” in the end, at least as far as the current incident is concerned. Minor characters may be women who are not so “savvy” or are unable to deal with life’s issues, but the main character overcomes for the present.

J K Rowling’s Harry Potter books have wonderful female characters, both young and adult. A young adult series by Garth Nix: Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen, doesn’t seem to have issues with sex, rather inheriting certain “traits” determine your destiny, so that females are at least equal with the male characters and sometimes much stronger.

In M A Monroe’s The Book Club all the women have issues and problems, but in the end seem to overcome, able to face the future, if not perfect. Peter Hoag’s Similla’s Sense of Snow has a wonderful female who manages to solve the mystery in spite of all the males’ efforts to contain her. Sue Monk Kidd’s Secret Life Bees is a study in characterization. Females are both strong and weak. They overcome and give up. But all are colorful and memorable. Iain Pears has created a wonderful female character in Instance of the Fingerpost: as the book progresses you realize just how strong this character is, though she is not the main character.

I’m not going into detail on Dan Brown’s DaVinci Code or Angels and Demons or Lewis Perdue’s Daughter of God for fear of spoiling the September discussion. But let me say I enjoyed the women in these books.

Steinbeck’s East of Eden was full of weak women, an evil woman and a refreshing young female character who showed great promise at the end. Only one of the adult females could hold her own among the many male characters. Women in the Brothers Karamazov seemed an absolute joke to me.

My nonfiction reading included only two books that I felt could address this question. When Religion Becomes Evil included no female religious leaders that I can remember and spoke to women as being abused along with the children. God, A Biography by Jack Miles spoke of women in the Old Testament mostly in roles of servanthood or as submissive wives and companions. One interesting aspect of this book was the feminine side of God.

You ask about The House of Mirth. I’m still in the first fourth of this one so I’m reserving opinion on it for a while as far as the female character is concerned, but I do feel an indictment of society coming on!! LOL

So, how do I think females/women are portrayed in current literature? I think certainly there are more strong women, competent professional characters than were available when I was young. But, hey, there’s been a revolution since then!!!

Lou

I think maybe literature is now ignoring those women who choose to be parents as their calling. All the books I read lately are women who have challenging careers and either in their thirties and unmarried with no committments or married with kids but juggling demanding careers with motherhood. As all three of my grandchildrens mothers have chosen to be full time mothers it must be a bit demoralising not to have their committment to parenting recognised. My grands mums are very lucky in that there is enough money to be able to stay home but it is an informed choice that they have made- all had demanding careers before parenthood. One did decide to stay on at work but gave up when her son was 15mths old deciding that both he and she were missing out on irreplacable moments. Does a mum have to be a career woman to be of worth?

Carolyn

The book about Western women's diaries was quite good and a good example of the times and morality in which they lived. There are the women of Edwardian England and the Victorian era as well as the women described in the World Wars, some of the German women really suffered under Hitler's reign. This is entirely separate from his many victims, they provide strong testimony as well, but just the average woman in Germany, struggling to keep her family going. In that vein Japanese women during the war have never been really described.

What about the Asian women who suffered thru the Japanese and the women the American government put into camps because of their ethnicity?

You have enough for several discussions in depth! I haven't even got to the fifties and sixties. What about Peyton Place, Valley of the Dolls, The Stepford Wives or Betty Friedan and the womens movement?

Angelface said: What about Peyton Place, Valley of the Dolls, The Stepford Wives or Betty Friedan and the womens movement?

I see red blazing when I see the words Stepford Wives!!!! Do any of the rest of you feel that way?? Never has a movie made me more angry.

Hubby feels that way about The Bridges of Madison County... and I can see why.

Lou

I don't know whether or not current literature is overly-focused upon career women at the expense of mothers or not. If so, imho it would be an improvement upon the focus, when I was growing up in the 1950s, upon women in traditional roles to the exclusion of females who were interested in other or, even, both roles

We haven't done any better in some of our portrayals, trying to stay hip and in sync with what's new at the time. Of course I expect all books try to do that but some are blindingly obvious.

I've also gotten to an age where I tend to skip over the sex in a book to get back to the story. I'm not into forcing morality on anyone, but most of the sex has nothing to do with the plot and usually seems like a pause in the story line.

Oh me, You are mostly right. The number of female characters with a happy home life, husband and children is small nowadays. There is currently a woman writing light mysteries.. Ayala Waldman?? She has written several light funny mysteries about having small children and also solving crimes.. Neat, but not realistic.

Having a senior moment, I accidently clicked on the send button and was not done. On the WWII oriental side.. Does anyone else remember a book that portrays ( in Burma, I think) a story of a whole group of people hiding and trying to get to a given point to be safe.. There was an interesting set of different characters. Most of them women. I also read at least one book on POW camps in the Phillipines.. It was on the camp where they put the women and children. Absolutely fascinating.

The modern authors are writing about woman who have careers that interest the reader in order to sell books. It is true you do not find heroines to write about among the stay at home mothers except in articles about sick children, premature multiple babies etc. and these women are hero's but so is every woman who manages a home and children and cleaning, laundry, cooking shopping, chaffering kids to school and everywhere else, teaching morality and on and on. Still no one ever did write about them except in diaries. It is very hard to get a picture of the regular 16th century woman not the royal class. It is equally hard to get a true picture of any woman in the biblical times. I think the Book The Red Tent came the closest that I know of to describing the daily life of women in the biblical times.

In the 30's when I began reading some adult literature written by Faith Baldwin and some others of her contemporaries I thought her women were as strong and resilent as todays women are. They were of course all different too, as their lives were. They faced the same problems that women do 70 some years later. More women work out of the home and then come home and do the same amount of work they always did(though maybe not as thoroughly) while men still only put in about an hour a day with family chores. Possibly we fool ourselves when we think womens lives are so much more liberated now!!! faith

I think in the forties and fifties women were portrayed as matriarchs. These women were strong and controlling, not exactly women you would want as an example. They were in the home, behind the man, controlling whatever he and the family wanted or needed, dominating the household. During this time, I think, therapists and others, in their books, blamed the mother for the neurotic behavior of their children.I think, in earlier books, there were a lot of stereotypes.

I remember reading The Awakening by Kate Chopin. The woman in that book could not make herself feel contented with who she "should" be versus whom she "wanted to be. I think this type of book was the exception. I think the book was banned. I might be wrong.

Some years back I had returned to school..one of the topics chosen as part of a mandatory history course (the time period was 1900 onwards as I'd lived through a lot of it) was to choose 3 women that we thought were of interest...as this was the late 70's, my choices were: Margaret Thatcher, who had just been elected Prime Minister in England...Jane Byrne who had just been elected Mayor of Chicago and my most favorite role model of all times Maria Sklodowska Curie. Apart from the bios by her daughters, there is a book called Marie Curie, a life, by Susan Quinn... I was married to a Pole from Poland for over 40 years so appreciated and understood the history. If this fits in with the subject we could also look at the poetry of Wieslawa Szymborska... colkot

Kiwi Carolyn, I’ve been thinking about women in traditional roles in the books I’ve read recently. The Harry Potter books have a wonderful character in Mrs Weasley, maternal loving stay at home mom, while at the same time having an awful stay at home mom in Mrs. Dursley. Some of the women in the Book Club by Monroe where stay at home moms, some loving the experience and some not. Don’t know how many of you were in our discussion of All is Vanity, but the stay at home mom there was a wonderful loving mom who got herself in a real mess. Julie Smith’s Skip Langdon novels have stay at home moms in most of them, they just aren’t the main character, some of them strong wonderful women and some weak. Wendell Berry has warm caring women in traditional roles in his books, but most of his books are not set in 2003.

I was a stay at home mom for 20 years and loved every minute of it. I have the greatest respect for women who manage to run their households with the money their husbands’ earn. We have great funny stories of mishaps and adventures, but mostly my life as a stay at home mom wasn’t worth writing about and certainly not something I’d want to read about.

Lou

Ha - but the stay at home Mum in All is Vanity was not really portrayed in a flattering way. I was a working mum and would have given anything to be able to stay at home. I had a six month sabbatical once and gosh I loved it and so did the kids.

Carolyn

Kiwi Carolyn, I'm agreeing with you. I think many of the problems in our world today would go away, if all moms could stay and mother their children... Have you read any good books with a traditional role for the mother that you enjoyed that you can share with us here?

Lou

I was a stay-at-home mom. When I did begin to work, I made sure that my hours allowed me to be home when the kids got home from school.

The contrary view has to do with Lou2's statement that a lot of problems would go away if all moms could stay at home and mother their children. I disagree because of history. There have always been problems, of one kind or another, whether moms were at home or not. Take a look at a little sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth, nineteenth century history, for example.

Also, in order for all moms to stay home, we would have to supply them with loving fathers who actually supported both their wives and their family. Back when I was small, a number of my friends lost their dads to heart attacks at an early age. And then there were all those wartime deaths and terrible aftereffects for many who did survive. And on and on.

I wish there were a easy fix-all for the problems of this world, but I don't think there is one.

I happened on "The Accidental Tourist" on HBO yesterday and sat contentedly through it. I had seen it years ago and loved both it and the book it came from.. Anne Tyler writes about interesting women. Sometimes stay at home, sometimes not. Her women are strong individuals with many quirks.. She is an excellent writer ( I think) and I have enjoyed most if not all of her books. Another interesting writer who does different sorts of women is Susan Howatch. She did some early romance types and then sort of circled into books with a strong religous theme.. Not necessarily holy, but about the church and the anglican priesthood.. Still quite fascinating and had some women who made strong statements. Marge Piercy is absolutely amazing with her women. Again they are quite different. One of my favorite all time books is "Vida". In that the woman went underground in the 60's because of anti war activities and never resurfaced. The strength and singlemindedness of the woman is simply scary.. All in all, you can find very strong women in very odd places.

Maryal said: "The contrary view has to do with Lou2's statement that a lot of problems would go away if all moms could stay at home and mother their children. I disagree because of history. There have always been problems, of one kind or another, whether moms were at home or not. Take a look at a little sixteenth, seventeenth, eighteenth, nineteenth century history, for example.

Also, in order for all moms to stay home, we would have to supply them with loving fathers who actually supported both their wives and their family. Back when I was small, a number of my friends lost their dads to heart attacks at an early age. And then there were all those wartime deaths and terrible aftereffects for many who did survive. And on and on."

I hear you Maryal, and I agree with all you've said. I went too far in trying to make the point that for the most part stay at home mom's stories are much the same... and don't make interesting reading most of the time.

Let me make up for that by letting you all know about a book I just read about in S/O issue of Book magazine: Madeleine Albright's Madam Secretary. It sounds like a great read to me... Could that be a good place to start???

Lou

and worked in my living room for nine years --giving guitar lessons to groups of kids. at the end I was burned out.

It would have been nice to have peers to talk too. as it was I had a tired wornout bad tempered husbaand and a couple of kids who wanted me there for a quick hello but then disappeared to follow their own pursuits.

It all depends. you could say, I had it both ways.

Looking back I think having a profession and getting involved in it, is best if you can find at least some time to be with family also because kids out grow parents and then what??. mothers have to learn not to be nothers . . . . . many go back to school but it's pretty late by then.not too late to learn but too late to get hired.

this is my opinion, not that of anyone I've found in a book . . . . I've often thought I might write one, but it's a mite late for that too . . energy and ambition on the wain. . . . . and kids in late middle age and husband long divorced. so I paint and read and stay at home to do it. . . . a stay-at-home=person if no longer a "mom" in the end. claire

In 1961 a group of women were recruited to go into space. The book "MERCURY 13" tells why they never got there. Written by Martha Ackermann, the Mercury 13 women were all super pilots and were given and passed the same rigorous physical and psychological evaluations that the men of the Mercury program and undergone.

This would make a good discussion, don't you think?

I stayed home when my children were small. My husband traveled a good deal, so we felt it necessary that the other parent ( me) were there to deal with all of the childhood problems. This worked for us. I was and am a good baker, so I used to give private baking lessons to the neighborhood and also volunteered for many school and other places. Then when they were in high school, I did a lot more. I worked part time and expanded my self through a library. They wanted a used book store in their basement and because I had been a volunteer, I applied for and got the job. I did quite a lot of things with used books and research( I am a genealogist and used to take commissions.). Then after they were gone completely, I worked full time. Mostly for the library and then owned several stores.. I never regretted staying home and actually enjoyed it.. But now this is not the pattern and I do see the difference in many children. The stay at home Mom is there when school gets out and that is so critical. They need to talk and that is when mine always did. After school snacks and conversation.. Worked for us.

same pattern for me. home when they go home for conversation etc worked for them if not for me. they're wonderful grown adults so I guess putting them first was the right thing to do. claire

There were difficulties to face in the past when women stayed home -- personal limits on time, budgeting money etc. Generally this was a middle class situation and was a choice. Poor women frequently had to work outside the home to earn a regular 40-hour paycheck, just like their husbands, except women's work continued when their paid job ended for the day.

And today's women don't have much choice when it comes to staying at home or working outside the home, however inconvenient the hours. The majority of families today -- middle-class and poor -- need the two-incomes for survival, rather than having a choice or option, its a necessity. Two-income families are not restricted to families wanting to live above the means of one-income. I can't fault husbands/fathers and wives/mothers for both working. It's quite a serious social issue that modern families have to face.

Marvelle

The question above is: How are women portrayed in the past 50 years in Literature? Instantly my thoughts turned to Holly Golightly in Breakfast At Tiffanys and the book The Women's Room. These little honeys came out of the closets, the kitchens and their husbands beds to find their own way and "get their own lives." I love those stories and as depressing as the process can be for liberation, this puts women in a positive, progressive light. Hooray!

Alf, I think of a A Room of Her Own by Virginia Woolf. I think of women needing their own space, a time to form their own identity apart from family. This way of thinking did not mean the women loved their families less. It just showed their need to enjoy and experience creativity. Creativity, I think, makes a woman complete, a better wife and mother. Some women find creativity in their career. That is fine too.

The woman in The Awakening by kate Chopin, if I remember correctly, found her creativity in art, painting. She rented a room around the corner from her family. I think this lady is one of "the honeys" you are discussing who "came out of the closet."

Unfortunately, society would not allow her to be true to herself, and she ended up committing suicide.

Faith, interesting that you mentioned Pearl Buck. Our high school sophomores have read The Good Earth for years. Now I wonder if they really get that much out of it. The books we have read and enjoyed -- how many are still meaningful to younger generations. Sometime ago I read Spring Moon by Betty Bao Lord, another Asian writer, who tied a history of China into her story line.

Stephanie, regarding the Phillippines during WWII. Did you ever see the film (and I believe it is also a book) Three Came Home, about an American family in a Japanese prison camp?

I have enjoyed books by Barbara Kingsolver, Bobbie Ann Mason and Gail Goodwin (Women's Room) but I can't give an overall view of how each depicts women and their roles. Mason's In Country did give a good picture of many young women who came through the halls of the high school-- big-hearted and kind, who planned for yesterday tomorrow.

The article below, from today's NYT seems to fit in with the above discussion of "Mom's -- at home and not".
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/21/technology/circuits/21wome.html

many of them here for interesting reading about and by women. now to find the time to go back and make a list for the library. I'm culling at the moment since I may be selling and moving. . . . . women do seem to collect a lot of stuff and when we have to move they make the desiciouns of what to keep. . men just throw everything out. . . . c

I think your tastes change as you change and grow and the books you become immersed in change as well. We look for women characters that are articulating the way "we" feel women should be at the time.

If we were actively looking for and buying books with a wider portrayal of women today, the books would be out there. Above the writer's need to write and the stories begging to be told, there is another side.

The commercial value of a book determines its printing and sale.Women';s portrayal in the media has never really changed that much in either mens or womens literature and that ladies is something we want and the men want or it wouldn't be commercial.

We are the directors of our consumerism. It is our purchases that fuel what books are offered and what type.

Now that is an interesting thought. Do we indeed consciously pick books that reflect whatever our current thinking is? When I try hard, I can see that when I was young and staying home with the boys, I did not in fact read things about women who were liberated and worked. I stuck with Science Fiction and Fantasy and Cozies in Detective. Now I read widely and truly love Anne Tyler,, Marge Piercy..Margaret Atwood. All female who write about liberated women. Have no patience or desire to read romances.. Just too too gushy for me..

Speaking of negative ways of presenting women, I never cared for the way that Ernest Hemingway depicted them. But then, he was such a macho kind of guy, I guess. Loved his books, but didn't care for the way he denigrated women, to a certain extent.

Lorrie

I'm not disturbed by Hemingway's depiction of women because he denigrated so many people -- especially men who didn't resemble himself, and that was most men. Partly too I remember the times in which he was writing and there is a kind of innocence to his ignorance. So I just enjoy his beautiful writing and don't give credance to his narrow perspective of humanity.

Marvelle

I have updated "Nominated Women in Literature"... if I have missed one of your suggestions, let me know.

Hemingway has always bothered me because his women seem to be no deeper than male-fantasy women. They are all alike. Take one of his women and transplant her to another book, and she will fit in well. Hem had lots of problems with his mother, and I don't think he really ever liked women. They were great for sex, of course, but he didn't seem to see them as people. He was such an egoist that I'm not sure he saw anybody as very important, but he was closer to men, especially men who liked to go to bullfights and shoot large animals, than he ever was to women.

His prose style, however, permanently affected writers who followed him. He was a master of clarity and minimalism. I admire how he writes but not what he writes, if that makes sense.

I found May Sarton some years ago, and loved her Plant Dreaming Deep and The House by the Sea, which was written at and about her home, Wild Knoll, in York, Maine. York, Maine is a place I love. In fact, I've told my three kids that instead of a funeral when I die I want them to go to Nubble Light at York and eat lobsters on the granite rocks by the sea while they listen to Dixieland music played by a band they hire that will play all the tunes I've played on the piano so many times, which we all have sung together. Sarton felt about that area exactly the way I do. Her journals about aging are something all women should read, I believe. I wrote to May Sarton and told her how I felt about her writing. She answered my letters!

What about Anne Bradstreet, Flannery O'Connor and Eudora Welty? Has anyone mentioned them? I just saw the "last 50 years". Well, these writers are still worth reading.

Mal

I also would like to name Toni Morrison and Zora Neale Hurston.

Pat, do not worry about these two authors. It must be awfully time consuming to put the list in the heading. Thank you for taking the time to do it.

Maryln, I am a May Sarton fan too, have all of her journals. I love it that you wrote to her and that she answered you. One thing that truly impressed me about her was that when she was very ill near the end of her life, she planted bulbs lying on her stomach on the ground. It's hard to stop a dedicated gardener. If you have not read them all, you have something to look forward to.

Zora Neale Hurston is wonderful and she was way ahead of her time.

I didn't realize that mentioning an author would nominate them for reading here. There were several mystery writers that I mentioned that would not make the best reading for our purposes here. I was just trying to answer with examples charterizations of women in my reading. I'm not asking for them to be taken off the list, I just don't expect anyone to vote for them... 'cause I certainly won't!! LOL

Lou

Toni Morrison portrays womanhood realistically. I have enjoyed her books.

Carolyn

Wow. And Wow, fabulous thoughts here and incidents of how women are portrayed in literature! (Not to worry, we're not voting yet, just collecting names and incidences, who knew there were so many!).

Odds n Ends:
I agree about Hemingway, and for those of you who mentioned Harriet Beecher Stowe and Uncle Tom's Cabin, I was quite surprised to find, in the new Sixpense House by Paul Collins, mention of the book A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin by Stowe which was

a justification of why Uncle Tom's Cabin was written, an explication of each character in the book, and an assemblage of news clippings to show that the depravities of slavery were no mere fiction. I cannot name another novelist before Stowe who peeled back the skin of a novel to show us its beating and breathing organs. We are used to this today, in our Making of... world of self-reference that we can never really turn back from, and theologians were used to it before Stowe, with their endless hermeneutics upon the meaning and making of every word of Scripture. But no one had thought to apply this scalpel to art.

So there, if he's correct, is a First for Women that perhaps has gone unnoticed? I had never heard of it anyway.

I love all the different nominations for a book you've raised, Mercury 13 and Madeline Albright, we'll get up a ballot sometime around September 1 and see what you'd like to narrow the following down to, till then keep the suggestions coming.

We do owe Pat Westerdale a great deal of thanks for this gorgeous page she has up in the heading in a link called "Nominated Women in Literature" (we didn't know what to call it but it's really fine.

Now one of you had mentioned (and I can't find it) a book which you said was banned, could you repeat it, we might want to consider it, as well? I had never heard of it and wanted to be sure we included it in the final mix but I keep rereading the comments and can't find it? Help??

Here's the list of women or women authors to date, who would you add and look below for a new focus perhaps on our initial topic, I think maybe it fits in with what you've been saying?

~ Suggested Books on/by/about Women ~
~ Women in Literature ~

Here are some of the authors nominated as our first choice in reading on the topic of Women in Literature. Please feel free to nominate either books by or about women, fiction or non fiction. We'll vote for the first selection.

Martha Ackermann
Susan W Albert
Madeleine Albright
Louisa Mae Alcott
Isabel Allende
Maya Angelou
Margaret Atwood
Jean Auel
Djuna Barnes
Nevada Barr
E. Berg
Anne Bradstreet
Pearl Buck
Rachel Carson
Colette

Isak Denison (Karen Blixen)
Emily Dickinson
Janet Evanovich
Rummer Godden
Gail Goodwin
Sue Harrison
Zora Neale Hurston
J A Jance
Sue Monk Kidd
Laurie R. King
Barbara Kingsolver
Anne Lamott
Anne Morrow Lindburg
Betty Bao Lord
Katherine Mansfield
Beryl Markham
Bobbie Ann Mason
Toni Morrison

Anais Nin
Flannery O'Connor
Marge Piercy
J K Rowling
Vita Sackville-West
May Sarton
Lisa Scottoline
Julie Smith
Lee Smith
Harriet Beecher Stowe
Ida Tarbell
Anne Tyler
Rebecca West
Edith Wharton
Eudora Welty
Phyliss Wheatley
Virginia Woolf

OK you've mentioned some wonderful takes on how women have changed (or have they?) or how they have been portrayed diffferently in modern literature (or have they?) Love all the reasoning here, it's like being privileged to sit at a table with the top minds somewhere, it's great, and I especially like the wide range of opinion and the number of voices.

I'm intrigued by something a couple of you said about the portrayal (or not) of the home maker: the stay at home mom.

I noticed a few of you mentioned the 2002 book All is Vanity, a book of fiction, and here I think I want to ask and understand the objection that was raised IN that discussion, if you have not read the book, no matter, here is what happened, your reaction TO this is what matters?

YOU be the judge, this is an important focus issue:

Two women, both young. One a stay at home mom. Not interested in trappings or money till her husband gets a fabulous tony job in a museum and entertaining goes with. It goes to his head. It goes to hers, with him pushing. Consumerism is rampant. The other woman quits her job to write a book, encourages her friend in this foolishness, and tries to make it right (too late). They'are all sadder and wiser at the end. Moral?

The question I have is this:

We have identified the Stay at Home Mom, along with the Professional Woman ("Mommy can be anything she chooses, just like Daddy") to be now appearing in literature, in different forms, both in fiction and non fiction.

Is it necessary, then, in these portrayals that either of these women's roles in fiction: the Professional or the Stay at Home Mom be peopled with saints who do no wrong? Is it necessary for the Stay at Home Mom to be portrayed as a "role model" and to have no faults like her other sisters (and brothers) in life?

How important is it that the women portrayed in fiction (and non fiction) today be positive role models with no failings?

What do you think??

ginny

Ginny, I mentioned The Awakening by Kate Chopin. I thought that it had been banned in past years (Post # 49).

Ginny, this is one of the reviews from over at Barnes and Noble.

From Our Editors Discontented with her comfortable but stagnant marriage, a New Orleans woman on vacation with her family meets several remarkable women and two desirable men who set her off on a different and difficult path: to live according to her own needs rather than in accordance with the rigid standards of society. First published in 1899, this book was rediscovered in the 1960s and pronounced a feminist classic for its open treatment of a woman's search for self-understanding. Includes an introduction by Pulitzer Prize-winning author Carol Shields, plus a sampling of early reviews, a biography of Chopin, and essays by modern scholars.

First is to Ginny's post. Its fine having positive role models but in the end, they are boring to read about and turn people off. A little soul searching of a type we may all identify with, a few faults we all have had or known of, provides leavening to the story and interests the reader in the outcome.

The working out of an issue that is complex can often make the whole story in my opinion. The prime objective of a writer in my opinion is to make her character real to the reader. Even a fantasy or science fiction character has to have some human qualities or we can't relate to them and in my opinion, that makes a story.

These sexualizations of books, stories and magazines is rampant and in my own opinion, destroys many stories I might want to read. If you skip over the two or three page sex scenes, often it makes the book that much more interesting. Yes sex does sell, but with everything, too much of a good thing can be palliative.

The other point is about Hemingway. The man wrote as he did because he was insecure about his masculinity. There are stories that his wives spent an inordinate amount of time in helping him and that insecurity comes out in his stories and in his suicide. Many men's sexuality comes out in their writings even if it wasn't meant too, the same with some religious figures.

My question is this; do you think women writers are the same? This is discounting the ones who use sex as their main character, but even that tells a discerning story.

What do you think?

Hats, I think you're right about The Awakening being banned. In those older books, "bad women" were supposed to come to "bad ends" and if they didn't it was a "bad book." For more on banned books, visit :

http://www.ala.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Our_Association/Offices/Intellectual_Freedom3/Banned_Books_Week/Challenged_and_Banned_Books/

Several other of our ladies have been banned including Jean Auel, Margaret Atwood, and especially Toni Morrison. The annual banned book week is coming up -- Sept 20? 23?. I love it, still have my censored shirt, ordered just for the occassion back in the 1980's.

Charlotte Bronte, Mary Shelley, Barbara Kingsolver, Carson McCullers, Dorothy Parker, George Sands, Lillian Hellman,Gertrude Atherton,Alice Walker,Lorraine Hansberry,Willa Cather,Virginia Woolf,Flannery O'Conner,Gertrude Stein,Anita Loos,Clare Booth Luce, Edna St. Vincent Millay,Marjorie Rawlings,Rachel Carson, Taylor Cladwell,Frances Burnett,Edna Ferber,Margery Allingham.

I've tried not to list any that have already been mentioned, but if I did I am sorry.

Plowing through the tbr pile, I found Carol Shields' The Stone Diaries... Won the Pulitzer Prize... "a universal study of what makes women tick"...???? Maybe we should throw that one into the mix????

To my way of thinking, the only perfection that made interesting reading is found in the Bible... and there are lots of non-perfect examples there too. Angelface said it well... makes folks more human. IMHO....

Lou

Angel, I agree with you -- plot and characterization are more important than being positive or negative. Being "good" or "bad" is irrelevant, but I find I do not care for books with "unlikeable" characters, Agatha Raisin (mystery series) being a good example. I'm trying to think of some "negatives," but they are not the protagonists -- the mother in Goodwin's Father Melancholy's Daughter and the mother in Ordinary People.

It seems to me that many younger women characters have negative relationships with their mothers, especially those in mystery series -- J. Jance's Joanna Brady for example. Those with positive relationships have dead mothers, Maron's Deborah Knott and Barnes' Carlotta Carlyle. A non-mystery would be Quinlan's One True Thing.

Perfect would not interest me at all. Either the stay at home or the career woman. The banning of books is interesting however. I remember that Margaret Atwood was banned.. I believe for "The Handmaids Story" but possibly another one. I know that Marge Pierce is banned in many high school libraries.. I suspect that a good many women authors are banned simply because they dont expect a woman to write frankly of life.

I am not a feminist, but I suspect that most of the banning of women is done by fringe churchmen. The idea of sexuality in a woman or indeed any independence of thought is an abomination and to be stamped out ruthlessly, especially as it is so frightening to ideas of their own superiority.

Often we fail to actually take in the words or meaning behind them when we read. We see what we are reading thru our own expectations.

An example is when I was much younger during the Vietnam war, a friend gave another friend a regular sugar cube and told his buddy it was soaked in LSD. The young man went on such a trip with that regular sugar cube that he was hospitalized for several months.

This is often how we "see" books and articles we read; thru those expectations.

It went something like never trust a man that starts his day with a noose around his neck.

Lillian Hellman had a few interesting things to say as well. Gertrude Stein was also another rave of mine.

Two of the well known characters in Womens books are the safe and nurturing best friend and the antagonist who represents all that the author believes is wrong with women today, no matter when that today happens to be.

Great points, Everybody and we'll try to get the new authors in the heading as well, who knew it was such a rich field?

To me and perhaps only to me, a woman character no matter what her profession or calling or stay at home mom or anything else, is invested with the same humanity as any other person and thus should not be required to be a role model, and a plastic one at that....remember the old TV shows with Mom in heels and a pretty dress all the time?

I fully admit that I am the wrong person to have opened this because I guess my own consciousness is definitely not raised, but I can't see why a woman character, no matter what her occupation, should not be possessed of humanity just like the male characters are. How are you going to have dramatic tension unless one of the other characters does something to react against?

I think what happens is exactly what angelface (love THAT name) says, in that it seems to some that the author is using the character as a vehicle for "what's wrong with women today." If we believe THAT, then of course we take offense at the way some women are portrayed, but there (I am finding out in our discussions) is always more than one viewpoint, on anything, all of your viewpoints are what we seek here, not to get a consensus, but to hear the different voices.

Hats, and Pedln, thank you for the banned book, I appreciate it, had not heard of it, and the review seems to touch on one of my own pet peeves: "The woman who goes off, usually in middle age, to find herself, only to find...yes...yes...she needs a MAN~!" I hate those things, just hate them. I don't know why and it seems as you read them you get towards the end, she started so well she's "finding herself," and whammo, she needs a MAN, yes she does. FAUGH!

I think we are getting a wonderful basis for looking at how women are portrayed, and what that might say about any of us.

I think for women not to be real or human misses the point, and is, in fact, more of a stereotype than Mom n Heels mopping the kitchen floor, but that's what I think, what do you think?

Were your childhoods or your own families, the women's roles in them, anything like what you saw depicted on TV?

My mother worked cleaning house for people because she had to if she and her children were to survive the poverty of the Depression. I didn't live with her very long, but was raised by a childless aunt and uncle.

My aunt had a job as a bookkeeper in a jewelry store downtown, and she was the dominant one in the household. My uncle's wages bought necessities like food, and took care of repairs and expenses for the house. Aunt Dee used her pay to buy Oriental rugs, Spode china, crystal glassware, sterling silver flatware, very good clothes for herself and various kinds of entertainment, books, Wedgwood pitchers and vases, Limoges figurines, sterling silver pitchers and bowls, trappings of families much richer than hers was. Not only that, at harvest time she canned vegetables for the winter, and in the Spring and Fall she tore the house apart and cleaned every inch of it with my uncle's help. It was just as well, because she was a terrible housekeeper the rest of the year, either because of limitations of time and energy or because she didn't like to do housework, or both.

From the age of 11, I went home from school to an empty house, had household chores to do, like clean the kitchen and get food on the stove for dinner, and I was expected to discipline myself to practice my music and study. I grew up thinking I'd go out and work, and that my "grownup" life would be much like my aunt's.

The environment in which I was raised was nothing like what I later saw on TV, or, in fact, nothing like the way I was expected by my husband to live when I was married.

Mal

My parents both worked outside of the home and we three girls were expected to do our part. My one sister and I cleaned house, readied food for dinner and did our homework. Dad would check our homework when he got home at five PM. and he fully expected some every day and that it was done and waiting for him when he got home.

My youngest sister was born when I was ten and my other sister twelve.We were expected to babysit her and then when she was older, she had chores as well. Housecleaning and preparing food and homework done as well as a clean room, were the expectations in my family.

In the summer, there was garden preparation and weeding, raking the yard and preparing the food for canning or jellies and wine. My folks worked just as hard when they were there and followed traditional gender ruled work such as Mom inside and Dad outside. Spring and fall, both worked to give the house a thorough cleaning and the yard prepared for the season ahead. We girls were able bodied workers.

This was exactly what all of the neighbors were doing as far as I knew in those days. You weren't allowed free time until the house and field work was finished. We were also expected to get out and play unless the weather was absolutely miserable. Then you went to a friend's house or played games and read. We didn't have a television and never noticed the difference until we heard stories at school about the various programs.

In the summer, we went upriver on the Salcha, about sixty miles to our cabin and spent the weekends visiting up and down river or playing on a river island. There was fishing and badminton and scores of games like tag or more card games. In the fall, Dad would go hunting and we would all help with meat preparation. My mother would sew our clothes and teach us sewing and other housewife-ry. Again, this was what everyone in our neighborhood did. There were many large families and you did what you did to feed and clothe them.

I don't want to say it was all drudgery. My parent played games with us, told us stories about our families and Dad taught us games and cards as well as skating,(ice & road); downhill skiing and softball. There were also family outings to a friend's that had a three mile curving driveway.

We would all sled down the entire route and the cars would pick us up and drive us back. Then there would be a winter's bonfire and we children had cookies and hot chocolate and the grownups had their own brew.

We were encouraged to read, In those days my parents went away from the norm in that no restrictions were put on what we read. You could sit next to mom reading a smutty book and she might ask you what you were reading and you would tell her. Oh, she would say and that was it. If you were reading a good book, she would ask more questions and compliment you on reading such an interesting book or something similar.

We learned by example and since we were exposed to so many books, when we did pick up a foul one, we usually saw the poor story construction and realized quickly it was to sensationalize sex or violence at the sake of the plot.

That was my parents idea I've come to believe, to teach us to love reading and to learn about taste by making available to us the good literature which taught us to recognize the bad or poorly written. Both of my parents came from huge farming families and grew up during the depression. Learning and family labor were emphasized in our family.

So, any love of good literature and reading was taught us by example and its something we all shared and shared with our children thus passing it on to the next generation.

My parents worked all of their lives and put some away for the future. My Dad was a welder and my mom a secretary. We weren't rich by any means if you count worth by money. The true worth was what we learned at our parents side.

This wasn't exactly about women and literature so much as it was about three women and literature. I'm sorry this is so long, but brevity and I are not closely related.

Before my mother became sick, she worked in the homes of other women. Then, later on, she worked in a hat factory. My father owned a tailor shop. After my mother was diagnosed with cancer, she remained home and worked in the tailor shop. Our basement had been made into a shop.

In the fifties, you did not see many role models for an Afro-American on the television. There were singers, comedians and sport figures but no role models for families. Neither in literature were there strong Afro-American families.

Then of the black women writers:

Jesse Redmon Fauset,Dorothy West,Gwendolyn Brooks,Lorraine Hansberry, and Zora Neale Hurston.

I think these men and women writers became better known after the fifties. Maybe during the sixties? These writers were not taught in the schools as readily as other writers during this period. It's only been lately that, for example, Dorothy West who wrote The Wedding became well known.

I once heard a professor say that these writers of color were not included in literature books until the sixties and thereafter.

I think that black heroes and heroines were in short supply in the general fiction category until the 60's. It wasnt that they were written,but they were never mentioned in school or college . I dont remember ever in the library knowing if someone was black or not however. The one black author that I could never get through a single story was Zora Neal Hurston.. It was and is the dialect that throws me.. But then, I had problems with Mark Twain about the same problem. Blacks were invisible people until the 60's. I went to college in a border state and there were exactly two blacks in the entire University in 1955.. Two women, they made them room together. They lived in my dorm and I never ever saw them.. They stayed in their room. Dont blame them, had to be scary as all get out. I knew girls in college, who had never seen a black up close until then. Amazing when you think of it.

There wasn't much to read about handicapped people, either. Franklin Roosevelt kept his handicap pretty well hidden. Marjorie Lawrence tried to continue singing opera after she had polio, but it didn't work very well.

There was no television when I was growing up. My ideas of family came from movies, which I saw once in a while, and the radio and books. Andy Hardy had a nice family, as I recall, and Little Women gave me a very romantic idea of what family life should be.

Mal

I too get sick of reading about middle aged widows or divorcees running around trying to "get a man!" Give me a break pleeeeeze! There are a lot of women who are happily single after widowhood or divorce!

Also as a kid I had a lot of responsibility and it did not do me any harm.

Hats, I didn't list anybody who started writing in the 1950. Many of these women wrote back in the earliest part of the 20th century. Zora Neale Hurston wrote in the twenties and thirties. Lorraine Hansberry wrote "A Raisin in the Sun" in1959. She started writing in the forties. Gwendolyn Brooks was published at 13 and was a Library of Congress consultant in poetry.

Dorthy West published in the twenties and some of her work was included in "The Best Short Stories of 1926 edition. Jessie Redmond Fauset was a literary editor of NAACP's Crisis magazine, 1919-1926 and was published over forty times.

The most common character is a blind man who rages against his fate. If he is a leading character, he gets his sight back in the end. A female character who has handicaps has usually been viewed thru euphemisms and is said to bear up with grace and dignity. The opposite side of the coin is the oft used antagonist who is insane and crafty.

I would like to see a story where a woman had an actual handicap that was treated in the same way the color of her hair or eyes was treated. As just one more side to a character and the plot doesn't revolve around the handicap.

Mal and Angelface, more about handicapped people should be written and read about in classes. Then, those students who will be our future leaders would be more aware of what life is like for the handicapped.

I do not feel that there is enough fiction written about senior citizens. The cozy writers do the best job. The cozy writers include the senior citizen as the alert and observant citizen helping to keep the community safe from crime. I like the grandmother in Jane Evanovich mysteries. She is full of spunk, and she has a wonderful sense of humor.

If you never read a cozy, I think you might find a dearth of material about the senior citizen who is not out solving the next crime. I do like the cozies because these books prove all senior citizens are not falling asleep in a rocking chair.

May Sarton has already been mentioned. She did a wonderful job, through her journals, in taking us through all of the stages of a woman.

Stephanie, I like your word "invisible." I think, at one time or another, ALL WOMEN OF DIFFERENT RACES have fought for the right to get their works published and recognized as good writing.

I remember one woman writer who dressed as a man. I can not remember her name. Was it George Eliot? I can not recall.

angelface, I have written a novel about a handicapped woman like what you describe. It's a mystery, and has a subplot about her inheriting an old house, which she turns into a haven for writers and artists in a town in Maine that doesn't like the idea. Now if I could only find a publisher.

Mal

I never have been able to get George Eliot straight! Or is it George Sand? For some reason the details of their lives confuse me, but I'm easily confused.

Ok we've talked about how women are portrayed on television in the 50's and such: heels and a pretty dress for house cleaning, etc., and it seems that that did not fit too many of our own homes or experiences, so how does the portrayal of women in 2003 compare to those in the 50's, do they seem to reflect your life (note Roseanne Barr's two new shows have been cancelled) and what does the way women are portrayed on television today say about women's rights in general?

Is the change for the better?

ginny

George Sand wore men's clothes. So did Willa Cather from time to time. There have been other women who did this.

I don't watch much TV. If I did, I'd never get my electronic publishing and writing done, but my daughter and I watch Ground Force and Changing Rooms on BBC America together every night right after dinner.

Ground Force is a show about how a handful of people transform a wilderness into a beautiful garden space in two days. Charlie is an attractive, sexy 32 year old woman on Ground Force who does heavy-duty digging and planting, often with various kinds of machinery. She also helps build decks and gazebos. Her specialty is creating water features out of what look like often impossible landscapes, starting with clearing the land, installing a plastic liner for a pool, stream, or whatever she's making, installing the water pump, and placing rocks, trees and plants around the water feature. One of the most memorable segments of this show was when Charlie and a few others built a beautiful garden for Nelson Mandela in South Africa.

Charlie is my daughter's idol. My daughter is the one you saw using a backhoe when this apartment addition I live in was built. She also did carpentry and any number of things on this building. She's the only woman I ever knew who received a chain saw for her birthday.

Changing Rooms, about interior design, is another show where women do woodworking, painting, plastering, carpentry and any number of things. That's also a British show. Changing Spaces is the American version.

I also watch Food TV occasionally and see chefs like Alice Waters, chef and founder-owner of Chez Panisse restaurant, and other women in competition with men in a very, very tough field.

Mal

I watch "sex and the city" regularily. those four women reflect four different kinds of modern women and they all relate to each other better than sisters. very funny and often profound.

Angelface, you asked for a character whose handicap was as accepted as her hair, eyes, etc. Right now the only one I can think of is the woman doctor in ER, and I'm not sure of her name --Kerri?

Oh, and another, but he's a man, is Simon St. James. It will be interesting to see how much Elizabeth George dwells on his handicap in her new book, which appears to focus on the St. James' rather than Lynley/Havers.

Re: George/Sand/Eliot -- Sand -- Chopin's lover?

is my heroine of all heroines. She now hosts "Mystery" on PBS. I've been watching her ever since she was on "The Avengers" with whats-his-name, Peter something? That was a classy show.

I really like the sound of your story Mal; I also think its great about your daughter going her way in life. When will It be considered as just one of the many facets of a person's personality?

I don't like the idea of his work and her work! If you are able and interested, you should be able to get the training without fear of hidden harassment!

Hats, I've never heard of a cozy, but using senior citizens as leading characters is a great idea. Right now the baby bloomers are coming into the senior ages and once they hit in significant numbers, we will probably see a change in the media across the board.

Just a note here, we have the Senior Games once a year and it is always tough situations, not a cakewalk. This year, the man who led in basketball and scored the most runs was a 104 old gentleman!

Ginny, I do not think it has changed that much, just a different spin on old ideas. Make the woman characters have good jobs, money and clothes and then have them go out and find a man.

As to the 1950 characters and those in the present day, the only difference is in more "color" since the non white segment has done well in forcing television to be more diversified. Unfortunately those characters are also forced to behave as nonentities in their roles.

Instead of an all white group of mothers and daughters, now we have a diversified group of mothers and daughters. But the story line has never wavered!

Seems to me that several years ago, on a soap opera, there was a character ( female) in a wheelchair. It was matter of fact and not really mentioned. I remember reading about it. And lets not forget Ironsides.. He was a very down to earth sort of attorney?? or detective?? Years ago actually , but even though I did not particularly like Raymond Burr, I did like the character. There is a science fiction woman writer, who deals mostly in worlds where women are the dominant species.. I like her stuff, used to read it and cannot for the life of me remember her name. I know that she was Canadian and I believe French Canadian.. I bet Nellie would know.

Has anyone mentioned Joan Medlicott's books here? There is a series of three about older women who are strong. The books have a charm about them. One of them is proposed for a book discussion here starting on Oct. 1st.

Right, Paige! Those three Covington ladies are a very good example. We urge everyone here to come join this discussion on October 1:

THE LADIES OF COVINGTON SEND THEIR LOVE by Joan Mendlicott

We are looking for a quorum here. Please come in and state your intent.

Lorrie

Lorrie, isn't that the second book in the "ladies" series? Is there a reason we are not reading the first book? Am I confused? Imagine that! It would be the very first time!

No Paige that is the first book of the three.

Carolyn

Good Heavens, don't scare me like that! Thank you, Carolyn!

Lorrie

Now to get back on the subject of Women in Literature. Sorry about that, Ginny!

As I said, just imagine that I could be confused!! Sorry for the mistake, the reason I ask is because that in the front of the third book, "The Ladies of Covington Send Their Love" is listed second. Threw me off.

Hi, All!!

OK the time has come, we've talked a bit, with some fabulous viewpoints, and mentions of authors (if you have mentioned an author above in your post we have not yet gotten in the heading, please advise asap)! about the portrayal of women in literature, in both fiction and non fiction, by female and male authors, and now let's take the bold step, another first for the Books! Would you like to select ONE book to examine in which we can see how women are portrayed?

We'll clear the heading here but we'll keep all your super thoughts to refer back to, we've had several potential winners suggested already, the one about Margaret Thatcher, the one about the Astronauts who never made it (because they were female?) books BY women which show a viewpoint, what's YOUR druthers?

The floor is now open for your nominations, we'll put them in a table in the heading and vote!

THE HANDMAID by Margaret Atwood

Lorrie

Heard the Handmaid on BBC in serial form. Its a sci fi isn't it? It was quite intriguing.

Carolyn

THANK you Lorrie and Carolyn, Pat will get that in the heading asap, I've read it but not from the point of view of how women are portrayed (tho I wondered at the time) I expect my consciousness to be raised out the roof!!

THANK you for that one, who is next? We'll get up a lively slate and vote, when? In about a week?

ginny

VOTE for the next BOOK CLUB ONLINE selection! We want to hear from YOU! Come on over to the BOOKS COMMUNITY CENTER this week and nominate titles you might like to discuss with us. NEXT WEEK, we'll VOTE and discuss the winner in November. Get in on the fun!

not really qualified to vote though, as I havnt been through the discussion.

However, the woman I am came via Charlotte Bronte and Germaine Greer.I have never read anything by a man, that captured what a woman is.Having lived with one man for 34 years, and having loved him and been loved in return, he has learned nothing in that time about what makes me tick,.He still brings me home the wrong treat from the bakery.I feel I can predict his every move, and am never surprised.Sorry this has little to do with voting, just saying i dont think women are ever truly portrayed by the male of the species.

Anneo, that's a super point, we might want to debate that while we're nominating, Pat will put your authors up in our table above Women Nominated for Further Study (if they aren't already there, there are almost 80 there, this is fascinating!) but is there one particular title you think would make for a good close analysis?

I think that's a super bone of contention: can a man really explain or truly portray (I like the way Anneo said that) a woman?

Food for thought while the nominations come in, thank you, Pat for the table and putting up the title!

ginny

I'd like to nominate Madam Secretary by Madeline Albright. The Book magazine review made it sound so interesting.

Lou

AnnieO, some men are just not very alert about the little things, and your beloved sounds like one of them. I have known those who seem quite perceptive, however. But whether a man could truly understand a woman well enough to accurately portray one in writing... Based on my own reading, I believe a man could do a good job of portraying a woman, yet I doubt if a men perceive things as a woman perceives them. And vice versa. And studies do show that man and woman literally do not 'think' alike. ..Babi

THANK you, Lou, I have heard a great deal about it, too (love Book Magazine, we hope to be in there, cross your fingers and toes) but anyway as you can see Pat is gone off for a bit and ol ginny [ut it up and I'm not going to TOUCH another heading till I get help! hahahaha

Babi, isn't that the truth, women and men do not think alike, so how can a man ...does it make it MORE of an accomplishment when a man writes convincingly about a woman?? or vice versa? I wonder which is easier, I can't imagine how a man could write about how it feels to give birth for instance, but am I wrong there?

Keep 'em coming, Everybody, comments and nominations!

Have any of you read Smilla's Sense of Snow? That one is written in the first person of a female character by a man, Peter Hoeg. The book doesn't really flow very well, but I put that off to the translation from Danish, I think. I had to keep reminding myself as I read that a man had written it... but like you said Ginny, Smilla didn't give birth in the book!!! LOL

Lou

Did we discuss such a book (about a woman by male author) here in SeniorNet? Maybe not a book discussion, per se, but touched upon, talked about? Seems to me we did. I should check the archives, but I need to pack or I'll never get out of here tomorrow.

I see that Madeline Albright's name is in the heading and I don't know what she has written??? Anyone?? We discussed a biography of Madeline about 2 years ago (or maybe it was while she was Secretary of State, I'll have to go to the Archives to read it again), it was after she had learned that she had Jewish roots.

May I nominate the book THE MERCURY 13 written by Martha Ackmann which had an excellent review in TIME not too long ago. It delves into the lives of 13 women who were chosen for the space program when it was thought that women would do as well in space; however VP Lyndon Johnson stepped in with a note that said "Let's stop this now."

The author is a lecturer in Women's Studies at Mount Holyoke and the book gives us a peek into bureaucratic infighting and "good old boy jokes" and this was in the "sixties" - a time we thought that women were liberated!!!

All the women in the book went through the same rigorous physical and psychological evalautions that the men of the Mercury program had undergone and passed them all!

Wow, Ella, that sounds like a great book too... In the early 80s my friend gave me a book called Games your Mother Never Taught You... Have no idea who it was by... But it talked about the "old boy network". I read the first chapter and had to quit... I was so mad at my husband I couldn't see straight for weeks... and he's one of the good guys.

Lou

english women bore me. I can't identify with them.

Hi WINSUM, we were posting about the same time. Do you have a nomination in mind?

I can think of nominations but have trouble limiting myself to one. GINNY, maybe you can sort out my list but, yes, please wait on the heading for Pat to work her wonders with the nomination box. <BG>

-- Little Women by Louisa May Alcott (unabridged 608 pp) Although this is considered a girl's book, it would be fun to revisit the March sisters -- each with their own personality, hopes and dreams -- and to once again watch them grow up. Will the story still have the magic that it did for us as young girls?

-- The Robber Bridgegroom by Eudora Welty (185 pp) A Grimms Brothers' fairytale reset in Mississippi that mixes past-flatboatman Mike Fink and the dreaded Harp brothers with Welty's imaginary characters. Rosamond, the daughter of a frontier planter, is carried off from her family home by the bandit Jamie Lockhart which sets the story in motion.

-- Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman (189 pp) A feminist utopian society of women is discovered by 3 male explorers who are forced to reexamine their assumptions of women's roles in society. Each man reacts differently. B&N also offers "Yellow Wallpaper and Other Writings" which includes some short stories and an abridged version of "Herland."

GINNY, can you help me winnow my nomination to one? I think it should be just one title.

Marvelle

WINSUM, I just now looked at your Home Page. What beautiful art!

Marvelle

Its very hard for me to condense everything down to a single author and so I will have to just go with what ever is decided.

I read so much that I have collected quite a library and still seem to buy more and more books. People tell me to just get them at the library. Have you ever noticed that not all libraries share your tastes?

I am like Angelface and Marvelle. Ginny, I can not make a decision. If I had to choose, I might go along with The Handmaid's Tale by Atwood. Making one choice out of so many women authors is just too difficult.

Finally packed, just about ready to go.
Marvelle, Herland sounds interesting. I'm not familiar with either the book or the author. Doubt I would want to read an abridgement.
It seems we're going to need more than one book to look at Women in Literature. I'd like to see us start with an earlier period and work our way up -- like with L M Alcott, as was suggested, or perhaps Emily Bronte.

"After the appearance of Wuthering Heights, some skeptics maintained that the book was written by Branwell, on the grounds that no woman from such circumscribed life, could have written such passionate story" (from ClassicReader.com)

that I like is Lisa Scottoline and her crew of women lawyers, but I've already given a list of other women too. mostly they write mysteries. I like others too as in the bloodhound lady, only I've forgotten her name. I did read ALL of her bloodhound books though. does anyone remember her? I got her here. . . . claire

I like alcotts JO from little women because . . . . . yo all know what I mean. she's an unforgettable character. why don't we each just talk about the one's we'ce read and enjoyed. why limit it to one. I'm sure we've all read many of the same OLDER ones and we might discover some attractive NEW ones by sharing. . . . Claire

I agree with Claire. I'd rather be general then specific because to me, thats limiting the field. But then others may only care to discuss a small portion of that field and so I will go with the majority view.

There are also a lot of books and articles coming out of what are called third world countries. These are not by white male adventurers or even by males of those countries. A lot of the new books are by women and are highly political and not always an easy read, but I believe they have important stories to tell and we can no longer hold ourselves aloof from the nonwhite, civilized, developed, name your term, worlds.

Many chinese authors now. I have enjoyed each one I have read.

Carolyn

Herland was written in 1915 by a woman, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. She also wrote the famous short story "Yellow Wallpaper" around 1896.

ANN, Alcott or Bronte sound interesting too.

Marvelle

AnnieO.. Charlotte Bronte was already on the list, but I added Germaine Greer.

Ginny, may we add Anne Tyler and Ursula Hegi? Adding names is easier for me than nominating a title.

Maybe we could do an author from the 18th or 19th century and then follow with one from the twentieth century. Would be interesting to see if attitudes changed much or have attitudes not really changed at all in the portrayal of women in literature? There will be vast differences in some areas during these two periods and we should really do an overview within a time frame.

Carolyn

Pat - I nominated the book - MERCY 13 by Martha Ackmann. It would make a great discussion, I'm reading it now. Can you put it up in the heading?

if we are going to look at how women are seen in literature, we have to start with the English female novelist.

Ginny, of course my Bronte book is "Wuthering Heights", because I am from an age when one 'needed' a man to be whole.My woman of the world daughter cut her teeth on Jane Austen, and my specific choice here would be Pride and Prejudice. It is delightful to see that even way back then there were women who literally railed against being stereotyped. Somebody mentioned that they couldn't relate to english heroines, which is surprising given that like we australians many american women would have english ancestry.

I love Greer's "the whole woman", and though it offends the genteel woman, she to me is required reading as she slices through the nonsense and cuts to what we really are and I quote

"Women love all kinds of things, places animals and people. They can love a place with so gut-wrenching a passion that they dream of it every night. They can love animals with such tenderness that they would die for them, whether in a burning house clasping an old cat in their arms or under the wheels of a lorry loaded with live calves for export. They can love a child or an adult person with a devotion that never flags through long years of toil and struggle. They love undaunted by ill-treatment, abandonment or death,returning good for evil.They do not kill the things they love but cherish them, feed them, nuture them remaining more interested in them than they are in themselves."

We of course all no exceptions to the above quote, but to me at least it brings me pride in my womanhood.It gets bawdy further on, and I wouldnt quote here, but gosh I love Germaine Greers portrayal of we women.

Anneo

ANNE, I love Germaine Greer too and other feminists of the 60s. I feel pulled in all directions by the nominations; don't know where to start. Anyone else feel that way?

CAROLYN had the idea of starting from the earliest of women's writing and moving towards the 21st Century. Most of the early authors' works can be found online.

Of the three books I nominated, Alcott and Perkins Gilman are online works. There are others, for example Sappho. Although little of her work has survived it would be enough for a mini-discussion. Perhaps other women writers have shorter works we can read (maybe online?) -- novellas, short stories, poems, letters?

I'm willing to discuss whatever is selected but would like to see some shorter works mixed with lengthier ones. Am I being lazy? Two of my nominations -- titles for Perkins Gilman and Welty -- are short pieces.

Marvelle

The description of Herland sounded interesting to me. And I like the idea of starting with earlier writers and moving forward. That would give a clearer picture of the progression of thought and perceptions re. women. ...Babi

Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe It seems to be a first Romance book.

I would like to nominate The Awakening by Kate Chopin.

GinnyAnn: I was just thinking about Moll Flanders when I saw the titles being suggested. I was taught Moll Flanders was the FIRST novel. Anybody else learn that?

Moll Flanders (1722) is considered the first English picaresque novel. It was preceded by the first European novel, also known as a picaresque, Don Quijote .... of which Book One was published in 1605 and Book 2 in 1615.

A woman wrote what is widely recognized as the first full length novel -- Tale of Genji (ca 1007). The author was a Japanese noblewoman, Murasaki Shikibu.

I cheated a little because I had to look up the dates and if we looked around I bet we'd find other firsts.

Marvelle

Thanks, Marvelle, I don't recall either of the other titles being mentioned, but then I took that course about 100 years ago, so this sieve I call a memory may have leaked those out. ;0)

Oh, I know about sieves, JANE! I can remember better when writing than with speech. Go figure. I graduated college at 50+ so the courses are supposedly fresh in my mind but I forget things, especially dates.

Speaking of women being first
-- the first known writer was a woman, En-hedu-Ana (ca 2250 BCE). Even if we don't discuss her writings, I wanted to show 'we were first!' Makes you wonder what happened and how quickly this 'first' was forgotten. There are still men today who say women can't write real stories or poems.

A quote from angelfire.com about En-hedu-Ana: "She was the first known author in recorded history to write in the first person. There were many anonymous scribes who wrote before her but she was the first to identify herself in her writings. En-hedu-Ana lived around 2250 BCE and was revered as the most important religious figure of her day .... Her writing is so intricate [that] scholars call her the 'Shakespeare of Sumerian literature' .... Her writings go back 2000 years before Homer and more than 800 years before the Epic of Gilgamesh."

EN-HEDU-ANA

She was the High Priestess of the Moon-god Nanna at Ur (Ancient Iraq). Her poems are powerful yet. From gatewaystobabylon.com: "When her father Saragon, the ruler, died En-hedu-Anna was temporarily removed from sacred office through the revolt against her nephew Naram-Sin.... The removal of a High Priestess from office was a serious offense and En-hedu-Ana was especially vocal" [in the following prayer about the removal and her restoration; praising and asking for help from Inanna, the powerful goddess.]

PRAYER: NIN-ME-SARA

The prayer is popularly known as "A Hymnal Prayer of Enheduana: The Adoration of Inanna of Ur." The ME mentioned in the poem are the spiritual gifts of Inanna. These are invocations or magical incantations and more. They give the power of arts, crafts and other nation-building skills. Also the gift of office will naturally follow from the other gifts of Inanna.

I know we're not settled on what to read but wanted to mention the first known writer in world history was a woman. Some may wish to read the links, others not and that's okay.

Marvelle

now that is interesting.

In This Our Life by Ellen Glasgow. This book won the Pulitzer Prize in 1942.

Thanks, ANNEO. Here's a list of the ME of Inanna and how she acquired them:

THE ME

Marvelle

I nominate A Yellow Raft in Blue Water by Michael Dorris. This book is about three generations of Native American women. It's written by a man who was married to another famous writer, Louise Erdrich. I loved this book because of its insight into the different generations. Ruth McCormick

macruth

The nomination you have made sounds very interesting. Will see if I can get it from our library and have a read. Just did a quick search of our library and its not there - Pity! Will have to budget to get it from B&N later in the year if possible.

Carolyn

Marvelle, thanks for a look at a fascinating woman I had never heard of before...and I had read some Sumerian history. En-hedu-Ana... I have a friend who would be interested in this. ..Babi

Wow! This is new to me, but fascinating what's going on. I want to read all the books nominated. Primarily (if I have to focus) I'm interested in how women are perceived thoughout history. What I've learned from the discussions so far is how little I know!! Annieover

Thanks for the interest in En-hedu-Ana. I liked the idea of her as the first known author (man or woman) and she was a woman of power just as patriarchy began to redefine women's roles in her society. I thought her poetry would be a short filler until we know what direction we're headed. I've been looking for the nominated books at the library and having fun reading snippets here and there.

And now GINNY has posted (in another discussion) that she has an idea, exciting, new, unspecified!?!! ... totally different for WL ... now what can that be? GINNY, come on in and tell all!

Marvelle

I checked for GINNY's post and it was in Book Community Center about the "Curious Minds" discussion and not WL. Oh well, sorry gang. I guess it's business as usual.. Back in a bit with a snippit from another early woman writer.

Marvelle

I just finished SISTER OF MY HEART her novel about growing up in calcutta...that is if I have the right person. too lazy to go and find the book. a wonderful read, beautifully written and strongly felt. . . and a quick one. I couldn't put it down . . . . claire

Winsum, Sister of My Heart sounds interesting. I'm going to see if the local library has a copy.

Jumping ahead in centuries from En-hedu-Ana to 615 BCE and

SAPPHO

Sappho = saf'o There are two clickable poems by Sappho and two different versions of each poem. The link says of Sappho that she's 'one of the great lyric poets from any age ....' Plato called her the Tenth Muse, coins had her likeness, Horace imitated her meter and ode structure, Pope Gregory burned her books.

Some poems survive in fragments and the rest are lost to antiquity except for one called "Hymn to Aphrodite," aka "To Aphrodite," which may be complete.

SOME POEMS

Sappho is apparently difficult to translate because her poems were meant to be sung and accompanied on the lyre (pectis = harp) and we're missing that musical element of the poem; as well as the fact that her work is incomplete, mere fragments. There are many differing translations of her poems.

Marvelle

IMAGE: SAPPHO READING

IMAGE: SAPPHO & ALCAEUS

Alcaeus was a contemporary of Sappho's from the island of Lesbos and was also a poet.

Marvelle

I just requested Sister of my Heart from our library catalogue. I like Indian writers and have read quite a few in the last couple of years.

Carolyn

Well I hope you all know how exciting it is to read all of your thoughts, a million different voices and perspectives, suggestions and ideas.

And the marvelous thing about our book discussions on SeniorNet IS that we CAN have it all? This is one place on earth you CAN have it all, and I suggest we do just that. I suggest we have THIS discussion continue for general thoughts on topics relating to Women in Literature, I suggest we spin OFF readings of one particular book, we can take it in historical order and nominate within a time frame and SEE if we see change or we can take it by genre: read books written by/ about Native American Indians, for instance, we CAN have it all, so I suggest we dip freely into all the boxes of candy here!

We have some more nominations coming I believe and then we'll vote. We'll keep this discussion open, and add a discussion on whatever book we choose from the list above for our first ever foray into Women in Literature.

In addition I propose still another twist to our proceedings here and that is, one day a week, we'll bring HERE and post HERE a short passage for your opinion, which will demonstrate something about Women in Literature, the first one of these will occur next Tuesday and will be called Topic Tuesday, and we'll actively solicit your reactions? This will be a variation of a technique I learned at Oxford this summer and I am anxious to see if it works on our boards.

IN ADDITION big big news I am so excited I can hardly talk, or type, but in December we have an UNPRECEDENTED chance to participate with PBS as Partners in a Women in Literature project and we will definitely need ALL of you Pioneers here in Women's Issues as portrayed in Literature on board!!! More on this incredible opportunity later, but for now keep the nominations coming, how long do you think we should leave the ballot open, when do you want to vote, thank you Pat for putting all of those nominations up, am gone out of town, but did not want to leave before telling you all this, will write you all when I get back Sunday, is the slate above enough to choose from? I'd like to see The Yellow Wallpaper put up there, as well!

ginny

Well, Ginny, IMO you did it again! and I agree with you 100%! We can accommodate everyone! Such a great idea to realize that!

I have a book titled Sappho that has her writings... Also have The Book of the City of Ladies by Christine de Pizan... France's first woman of letters... written in 1405... Either of these could add lots of perspective?????

Lou

I think the novels of Jane Austen definitely have a place in any discussion about Women in Literature.

Ginny, by all means, let's add The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman to the above list.

Oroonoko; OR, The Royal Slave by Aphra Behn written in 1688, is probably the first novel written by a western woman. The complete text(at least I think it is complete)is here: http://www.blackmask.com/olbooks/oroonokodex.

This has a good bio. http://www.theatrehistory.com/british/behn001.html

But if we are going to vote on those listed above, it interests me that 8 of the writers are from North America, one being canadian, and one having european roots. The two men are english and danish.

I realize this is essentially an american forum, and appreciate the variety. I also checked and of course it doesn't say that this is about women in English literature, that was simply my assumption.I have however been delighted by some of the later inclusions from very early writers.

I dont ask that an australian or kiwi be considered, or even that an english authoress get the nod, would dearly like to see someone of the calibre of austen or bronte make the cut though.Otherwise this could be a pretty insular discussion. I rest my case.

Anneo

Hear Hear Anneo. One British writer would be good!

All right, ANNEO and CAROLYN, I hear you too. So what about Jean Rhys ? She was English, born in the Caribbean. She would be a marvelous fit in the line-up, IMHO.

Alone and penniless in London, later in Paris, she wrote short stories and novels, among them Good Morning, Midnight and After Leaving Mr. Mackenzie , and perhaps most notably Wide Sargasso Sea = an imaginative "prequel", as it has been called, to Jane Eyre , bringing to life the young woman who became Rochester's first wife, the mad woman in the attic.

I know that I was raised to be self-effacing and non-vocal as a girl. As a young woman I began to find my way as an individual; and only as a mature adult could I speak out, including nominating a book in a public forum. I used to worry about being wrong (therefore seen as foolish) and now I know that only by expressing thoughts and feelings can I learn and grow; and now I know that "right and wrong" are shadows on a cave wall.

I hope that people will be proactive and nominate? Otherwise, how complain ... yet not nominate yourself?

Please, please, nominate some books rather than worry that others haven't taken on that job for you. Please nominate if you feel something is missing from the list. I think that all of us here are eager to learn about books by authors we might otherwise be unfamiliar?

Goodness, there are a million books I can think of to nominate and I'm barely restraining myself (even though the days of diffidence are still with me).

I still like ANN and CAROLYN's idea of reading chronologically which I think begins with some great writers, En-hedu-Ana and Sappho and others (oh so many others). We've barely begun and are scratching the surface of possibilities. I'm excited to think of what we're doing and how many writing discoveries are waiting for us down the road we're traveling.

Marvelle

am not in the least self effacing, quite the contrary.

Also i didnt intend to complain, merely to draw attention to the plight of we down under people, who sometimes feel we are "a voice crying in the wilderness"

I too support the chronological idea, which will of course broaden the scope in and of itself, given that america is a 'young' country.

Anneo

But...but...but ANNEO, where was the voice crying in the wilderness that wasn't heard? Did you nominate a book which wasn't heard? The only plight I can think of that would be worse -- being self-effacing I know about this from experience as a child -- is to not be a voice with a nomination; especially if you felt a book was missing from the nominations of others.

As I said earlier, if you feel the nomination process is lacking a certain book, then nominate. Don't leave that responsibility to others and then be upset if they don't nominate what you want to read.

Please share a good book with us by nominating it.

So I don't feel that's a fair statement you've made ANNEO about the voice in the wilderness unless earlier you actually nominated a book, during this nomination period, that was ignored. Not correct at all. And the last paragraph in your post I don't quite understand. Sign me, confused.

Marvelle

Since this is about women as they are portrayed in literature, I never even noticed that my favorite women authors weren't up there. Austen and Eliot are right at the top of the list for me. Moreover, both authors masterfully depict strong, intelligent women of their time. PLEASE DO add Austin and Eliot to the list. Middlemarch is right over there on a book shelf, as well as Adam Bede. Persuasion, Sense and Sensibility, and my favorite Pride and Prejudice all feature women. ...Babi

Thanks BABI. Are you nominating the five books mentioned? I like the chronological approach too, but prefer going back much earlier in time to the beginning of writing/oral storytelling to see the progression, aids, and hurdles for women. Starting with the ancients rather than the recent past. So I'll be back later today to nominate the works of Sappho and En-hedu-Ana.

Early writings usually will be available free online; an important consideration in this longterm project. When it comes to full-length novels I have to opt for a hard-copy since my eyes don't hold out for long readings online.

Other nominations? ANNEO? CAROLYN? This is my last prompt to all posters to voice their nominations.

Marvelle

so far this list except for albright doesn't interest me but the subject does. I'm for freedom of movement and discussion and review of what we are currently reading within the subject. . . . claire

Gloria Steinem for Revolution from within (1992) and Moving beyond words (1994) Margaret Mead for Coming of age in Samoa (1928) and Growing up in New Guinea (1930)

Whether you find her interesting or not, Mae west wrote all of her own plays in the 20-30s.

Joan Didion, Slouching towards Bethlehem (1968)

Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem; A report on the banality of evil (1963)

Fran Lebowitz, Metropolitan Life (1974) and Social Studies

Hello Marvelle :

A number of suggestions have been made here, and I for one also have not made an "official" nomination - other than seconding Ginny about including "The Yellow Wallpaper" on the existing list and favorably mentioning Jean Rhys. When the path, the direction we are going to take, has been determined, more nominations will come.

ANNEO's and KIWI's recent posts lead me to ask about parameters for the Women in Literature project.

Are we going to include in our study women writers irrespective of their provenance and ethnicity ? Would male authors or playwrights be considered, e.g. Hendrik Ibsen for his famous plays "Hedda Gabler" and "The Doll's House" ? Or, for that matter, "Effie Briest" by Theodor Fontane? --the Washington Post Book Club tackled that one last year, and quite well too.

Just my thoughts.

I think we would have to include some male authors as a comparison. For instance does the fact that an author is of the opposite sex affect the way he portrays Women In Literature.

Carolyn

Several of you mentioned we need authors from other countries and I have one to propose for the future. At the time we discussed the book, SEABISCUIT we had a participant named Barbara S. (I believe I am correct) from Australia who was just marvelous and I emailed her about authors in her country. She gave me this suggestion - I have read the book and it is wonderful and I would heartily recommend it: FROM STRENGTH TO STRENGTH by Sara Henderson

Another book about a female author (one all of you know and one that is becoming popular again for who-knows-what reason)is: The Passion of Ayn Rand by Barbara Branden"

about a voice in the wilderness, was a generalization, about how one feels when geograpically removed from the rest of the world.Sorry if it read otherwise, no slur intended.

Re the young country, I merely meant that your country like mine was young, and therefore if we started chronologically it would necessarily entail asian, europeans and arab writers, before we came to ours.

My reason for not actually mentioning a particular book is the fact that it is unlikely such choice would be readily available other than in australian libraries. Again this is merely the tyranny of distance, as having checked, most of the american authors are not available to me.We of course can buy current popular authors but I at least do not have access to the likes of welty and chopin.I checked them on the net of course, and am suitably impressed.

Upshot is, I guess that it is impractical for me to take part here, but will lurk and enjoy, and wish you all good reading.

Anneo

If the choice is made to go chonologically, this book would come later, I realize. I would like to nominate Virginia Woolf's "A Room Of One's Own."

ANNEO, I wish you wouldn't leave but that's your choice. We'd be thrilled to see you come back anytime. I posted my ideas and cautions from the start, an opportunity given to all of us. I'll go over (although I wish I didn't have to) my ideas and cautions one last time and more indepth:

Expenses: I've mentioned that I'd like to discuss early writers because their works are available free online.

Most of us can't afford to buy books books books. I have no house or car because I don't have the money; I have only myself to depend on to get by; I barely pay my rent and utilities and will have to work all my life despite certain handicaps ... (oh, poor me! sorry, I can't take myself seriously for very long) ... but I give myself some pleasures as best I can. I figure life is to enjoy and so I enjoy within the framework of my personal challenges. I allow myself the luxury of occasional book buying, not often, and a once-a-year small splurge on super bargains.

We're most of us watching our pennies? And I never assume that other posters are any better off than I am? Sometimes I don't join a discussion because I would have to buy the book and that wasn't a option at that moment but hey, that's life. I keep a lookout for another discussion that I can join.

I don't like crying poormouth in a public forum, this is very distasteful to me, but I feel I've been pushed up against the wall here. I come to Books to get away from the idea of personal challenges. I had hoped that we all posted with the understanding that each of us have one or more limits in our lives: time, energy, mobility, health, finances. I've been disappointed here with that hope, but maybe we can start now with that understanding without having to explain ourselves again and again? This is a Books forum rather than a Chat and I prefer to talk Books.

There are some wonderful contemporary authors suitable for this discussion but I hope we also read lots of online writers... maybe rotate between hard-copy books and what's available online ... I've already nominated some online writers and many many of the other books nominated by posters are available online.

____________________________

Variety: There's a whole world of writers to choose from but the current process is that they have to be nominated in order to be considered at all.

Yet I do wonder if we'll continue with the nomination process as it stands. Is it succeeding?

I don't limit myself to one particular group or time period. I enjoy hearing the interests of fellow posters through posts and nominations; while I nominate titles I like which are missing from the nominations. I feel that everyone who's nominated titles has done this. I'm thrilled to see the lengthening list of books to be considered.

Personally I've posted on certain ancient writers -- one from the Greek islands and another from Iraq -- and I intend to post on others. (Note: for those groaning right about now re the ancients. It's okay not to like everything. <Smile>)

In this nomination period, we're posting about what interests us that's relevent to WL and so I post on the ancients as the beginning of writing in the world. Because I'm nominating I can't say that my interests aren't being looked after or considered. Whether my nominations are selected for an actual discussion is not important; but the nomination process itself is.

_________________________

Purpose of the process: I believe that the process is helping us know one other through the choices of books in each of our nominations. From this maybe we'll see a direction for our discussion. (I hope, cross fingers) IMO we dearly need to have some sort of direction. Right now, I'm lost in the sea of possibilities and wish I could see the shoreline, some sort of limits or parameter to the sea.

_______________________

I'm tired of this subject, aren't all of you?

I do feel lots of confusion about the direction of WL and wish .... I wish not to be confused. TRAUDE brings up some questions that are so dead-on pertinent to our direction. The questions could add more possibilities (confusion?) to our direction or maybe not. What do you all think of TRAUDE's questions?

Marvelle

Okay, Marvelle...I'm going to stop complaining about my 13-yr old car that's always in the shop and draining me dry. At least when it's out of the shop, I have wheels.

On the nominations, I would not include "Adam Bede", as the central character here is not a woman. I would recommend "Middlemarch". Of Austen's books, the big problem is deciding which one. All in all, I think "Pride and Prejudice" is still my favorite.

I do like the idea of starting with the ancients and working forward. Of course, in any time era the status and place of women is going to vary depending on where they are. The Celtic women, for instance, compared to the Roman women of that same time. ..Babi

I posted here about an hour ago, now the post is nowhere to be fond. It was addressed to Marvelle but general in substance. Neither polemical nor disrespectful.

It must have been deleted, but I can't imagine why. Would anyone tell me if I asked?

Hello, Traude. I am the only one with "authority" to remove posts that violate SeniorNet policy and I did not see or remove your post.

If you clicked the Back button in your browser after you made the post, it may be that you "unposted" the message. I have found that has happened to me occasionally.

If I have missed any of the nominations...please post again ..

And preface the title and author with "I nominate...."

Pat, on September first in Post #145 I nominated In This Our Life by Ellen Glasgow. This book won the Pulitzer Prize in 1942.

Mal

Mal, It is there about the 10th one down.

Marvelle sometimes, (you do not mean to I know) but you can come across as being a bit confrontational. Remember we can't see your body language on a message board. I hope Anneo does not leave the forum as she is a really good sort. (and shes an Ozzie cuzzie to me)

The first title, Atwood's book, should be "The Handmaid's Tale."

I have four more to suggest

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross

Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas by Morgan Llywelyn

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Maggie Smith

The Red Tent by Anita Diamant

No CAROLYN, not confrontational but with someone I respect I will question their statements. It's too easy to assume certain things about people and assumptions lead to misunderstandings. Anneo and I respect each other, we're direct, and we now understand where we were/are coming from.

TRAUDE, I remember your post and thought you had some great comments but can't attempt to quote you, my memory is not that good. Is it possible for you to reconstruct your post?

ANNEO, Chopin's more well-known works are online; Welty is not, at least that I know of. Of the three I nominated, two are online which I think is quite a good average. The works I can't read online are full-length novels... too hard on the eyes ... for them I have to trust to the availability of hard-copies from the library.

I'd also like to nominate some Sappho or En-hedu-Ana, available online, but have run out of time today to look up the possibilities. There's also a great writer from India that I wanted to post about next (ancient writer, online) and to continue from her era. Even if just posting some online works is as far as we go with ancient writers, I'm glad for the chance to post where people can read them or not, their choice. I'm not choosing by the PC method. I look for the best writers of their day/era whatever locale they're in and/or someone who's influenced the course of literature, especially woman-centered literature.

Marvelle

BABI, a thirteen year old car? That's like a hundred human years. You must be taking really good care of it for the car to still be sort-of-running.<smile> Truly, you have to have been conscientious about the upkeep for it to last this long.

Maybe we can revert to horse-transportation and run around town in fringed surreys; and our horses could produce little horses which miracle computerized cars can't do yet.

Marvelle

With respect Marvelle you do come across as confrontational at times. This is my perception.

Carolyn

I'm full of them and like others here am limited as to "buying books". I am open to sharing them though and often do through the book exchange where we send them to each other for postage only. why can't we pick a group that interests us and share those as we read them. we can announce when we've finished one and someone here can ask for it. the only rule is NO KEEPERS. we have to make the book available to everyone in the discussion when it's been read or not read as it may be. after all if we don't like it we can put it up for sharing and say so and why. I've read someof the books mentioned here but do't have them any longer. However I do have that wonderful book on growing up in calcutta to offer. . . anyone? ..... we can become a kind of swing off of the general book exchange which has pretty much been taken over by the romance readers and then robbie's enormous collection. Maybe Larry, the host would even manage it for us. . . . . claire

if I'm really into a book I want to finish it SOON maybe in a day or so and in a grop have to hold back to fit into a schedule. makes me crazy. but . . . . I can finish and make my review and offer it for sharing. . . what do you think after som e of us have read it and it may not be available for all when they want it those with the means can buy more copies. . . ???? what do you think. claire

WINSUM ... wow ... what isn't online or in our libraries can be shared between us ... jeepers, now that's doable I think. What does everyone else say?

I'm excited by the possibilities for shared reading. I have a few books to share that I hesitated nominating because of limited availability. Perhaps we can handle this ourselves; just passing a book amongst a small group like ours wouldn't take all that long. What a wonderfully creative solution, WINSUM!

Marvelle

Well! What a wonderfully vibrant group here this morning with all sorts of passionate ideas, love it, thank you all.

Let me first welcome a new person, Welcome Annieover12!!! So sorry I missed your post, I thought you were Anneo (Anneofavonlea) in disguise! hahahahaha

Welcome here, love your attitude and your post, do pull up a chair and stay awhile!

Let's see if we can get some clarity here on what we're trying to do and let's adjust as we go to accommodate the ideas of everybody, not much use having Brainstorms if you don't act on them?

We essentially here, now, because of your additions, have 4 Initiatives? Two will take place IN this discussion and two out of it.

First off, the list above of nominations for our first group reading is nearing 30, thank you Pat for putting them up and we did miss a few, so we'll want to adjust that asap, so we'll close the nominations at the end of today. If you nominated one and we missed it (as did happen) please repeat it here, meanwhile here are some I caught:

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross

Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas by Morgan Llywelyn

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Maggie Smith

The Red Tent by Anita Diamant

Gloria Steinem for Revolution from within (1992) and Moving beyond words (1994)

Margaret Mead for Coming of age in Samoa (1928) and Growing up in New Guinea (1930)

Joan Didion, Slouching towards Bethlehem (1968)

Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem; A report on the banality of evil (1963)

Fran Lebowitz, Metropolitan Life (1974) and Social Studies

Heinrik Ibsen for his famous plays "Hedda Gabler" and "The Doll's House"

Theoror Fontane for "Effie Briest"

Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte

The Whole Woman by Germaine Greer

Hats has suggested we add Ursula Hegi (Anne Tyler is up there) to the list of Women Nominated for Further Study, so Pat when you have a chance, can you add their names to that underlined list in the heading as well? Let's put Jane Austin on that one, too. Many thanks, Pat, for your help here.

Now who did I miss? We will close the nominations at the end of today, so for our first reading in Women in Literature, please submit your own nomination today.

So if we were outlining what we're doing here, we would see we have a nomination for a group reading in progress? This book will attempt to look at how women are portrayed in that particular book, about that particular time period and that particular country, you might even say the particular voice of the writer? And see what it reflects.

And while it's true that reading as a group is time consuming, that's what we do here in the Books & Lit, but let's, as I said earlier, have it all, I like your idea, also, Claire (winsum) of exchanging books (although that is a longer process, having to wait while one person reads it till the next can do it, as we have something like 30 people here, and growing, the last one will be at least 30 weeks off the discussion, still I think it has much merit and let's do that, too, we can share books here and count them as part of our Book Exchange, so it's a win/ win situation).

II. Now on the idea of voices from other countries other than America, well of course! As a matter of ironic fact, tomorrow's Topic Tuesday will display a voice not from America, and will not be identified until we're thru discussing it, as to the country of origin or the date of the writing. The idea, as I think Anneo expressed earlier, will be to examine common issues to all women , to see if there, in fact ARE any issues common to all women, it's not going to be a guessing game but rather a sincere attempt to examine issues common to all women in all times.

III. I also liked very much the idea of comparing, I think Carolyn said, of the difference in attitudes of the times (if we can figure out who represents the "Voice of the Times" in each century? That alone might make a great thing to debate) and how they change with the times, IF they did. IF they have, at all?

IV. So therefore Marvelle's idea of taking things in chronological order, time line wise is also very exciting, and Sappho would be splendid. The idea of online texts to examine is likewise exciting and if I did not know what was coming in December I'd say let's LEAP on it and go back centuries, but I think you will want to take advantage of our December offering, I think you will be electrified, and since it takes place in 2003, then I wonder, just till December, if we might read different selections, note the tenor of their perspectives, and then PLACE EVERY WORK WE LOOK AT IN A TIMELINE....you don't have to read in order in order (hahahah) to see change, right? Because every book by necessity IS of its own time. I suggest we take all the Topic Tuesdays and another day for an Online Readings...the Online Readings, at first, by necessity, will have to be short...till December.... (I can see we'll need two days a week for this effort) and when we're thru, put them on a timeline and identify them by country of origin and date, would that help till we get thru December?

What would you think about that?

So in essence we have the following on board:

We've nominated almost 30 books. I now call upon those of you who nominated each one to provide us with a short descriptive sentence about each one, to help us know what it's about so we can choose. This discussion will spin off and be a book discussion associated with this group.

We have Topic Tuesday coming tomorrow, which will be for the group here, in which you will find here an excerpt from literature about a woman which you may want to comment on and address the underlying issues. You can still talk generally about anything or any book as well. When we're thru addressing it we can identify the time and the country the voice originated in.

Also we would like your own submissions for Topic Tuesday and will put them up in the order in which they are received in email or posted here. Just find a passage online or scan one in and send it on?

We can have another day of the week, maybe Friday, in which we can begin to look at online texts, one by one, we can begin chronologically in a time line frame if you like, and that way those who do not have the texts available can avail themselvles of the vast library of online texts, I think that's a super idea.

And finally we can pass among ourselves a book and share it so we can all benefit from a particular reading, that is also a viable alternative, in a sea of exciting ideas.

So that's where I see us and will write you all personally, Pedln and Steph are on trips but hopefully everybody else and anybody new who wishes to join in will tune in tomorrow for Topic Tuesday, when you will find a voice, hopefully, that raises issues you all can relate to and discuss.

How does this sound?

ginny

Thanks, Ginny, sounds great. DH and I will be back Friday... that stay 3 nights get the fouth one free was just too good to pass up!! So I'll miss this first TT, but will read anxiously Friday to see what you all came up with.

Get a bunch of great minds together and see what you get?!? A great new discussion area!!! Thanks, ya'll....

Lou

GINNY, Sappho is regarded as the greatest lyric poet of ancient Greece. Would love to spend some time talking about her. I''m going to suggest a book of her poems in case we need to have a title on Sappho in the heading but her texts can be found online in various translations. For a basic suggestion, here is a good book of translations for those interested: Sappho by Mary Barnard. From B&N: "Mary Barnard's translations are lean, incisive, direct -- the best ever published." I think we can find more than enough online to keep us busy but am suggesting the above book in case people prefer a copy in hand of her poetry. Optional Reading: There are some studies of Sappho as well and here are two:

Reading Sappho: Contemporary Approaches ed. Ellen Greene. From B&N: "...scholars read Sappho's poetry for its literary content and its relation to literary and mythical tradition... feminist scholarship and work on gender theory [are also represented]."

Another possibility for an optional book is Sappho Companion, ed. Margaret Reynolds. From B&N: "... in roughly chronological order, Reynolds shows manifestations of Sappho in excerpts from various literatures.... looks at the ways literature of many different eras havetaken up te story of the ancient Greek poet Sappho."

I loved your post GINNY, lots of exciting things going on in WL. Topic Tuesday is intriguing.

Marvelle

Ginny and all, yes, it all sounds wonderful, every bit of it, the list above to be voted on, the whole interactive discussion in 195 posts joining together with such exciting ideas. It's my own damn fault that I'm so late getting here.....and I was cursing myself the whole way through catching up with the posts....so excited I could barely write out my quick notes as I read.

Since I'm so far behind, I'm going to hold off responding to so many things that caught my attention and just answer one or two things, before making a suggestion to add to the list above.

Early in the posts, Ginny referred to All is Vanity, the book that spurred some comments and discussion about how writers present female characters. And Ginny asked if writers should take care that female characters be role models, that they meet some conditions of strength or expectations of fully evolved terrific women.

My answer is NO, NO, NO. Not role models. That would be continuing the same thing writers have for too long done to women.....writing from a formula of some kind. It is Carolyn Heilbrun (will say more about her later) who said that most of what we know about women in writing has been written by men (count the centuries of who were allowed to write and publish....this is the theme behind Virginia Woolf's book, A Room of One's Own) and add women who learned to write as men have always written. The categories of types of women is a short list. We know them all. The original list had two categories. Nurturing mother. Whore.

What is needed and what is now slowly gathering speed (since 1970, Heilbrun says) is writing from women's actual lives, the vast and complex experiences of real women. Everyone who authored a suggestion for the list above could probably explain it better than I am, but you already "get it" that we don't fit into the few simplified categories that women have been stuffed into a la Hemingway, etc., etc. When Toni Morrison first published a book, her words were virtually a new language in print, because white writers and Black male writers had never ventured that far into the lived lives of Black women....no simple short list of categories would hold them.

I'll stop here and begin a new post on Carolyn Heilbrun.

Betty

Carolyn Heilbrun was a professor of literature at Columbia for many years and is newly retired (and has written a book on what a mess and surprise her retirement was).

Another book of hers, Writing A Woman's Life, a short 131 pgs., is, among other things, about biographies and autobiographies of women. It's about so much more, too. It's about our lives. (A used copy of this book couldn't be more than $4 or $5. I urge everyone to put this on your need-to-read list, even if we don't officially discuss it. It's a wonderful book and could be a good source book to help with whatever books we vote to discuss. On a bookshelf, it needs to sit beside A Room of One's Own, by Virginia Woolf. Every time I reread either, I learn something new.)

In the introduction, Heilbrun says,

"There are four ways to write a woman's life: the woman herself may tell it, in what she chooses to call an autobiography; she may tell it in what she chooses to call fiction; a biographer, woman or man, may write the woman's life in what is called a biography; or the woman may write her own life in advance of living it, unconsciously, and without recognizing or naming the process."

Most of the book is about the beginning of a new kind of biography and autobiography of women. Maybe it could be read in conjunction with an autobiography already on the list above.

Other quotes from the introduction......

"In 1984, I rather arbitrarily identified 1970 as the beginning of a new period in women's biography because Zelda by Nancy Milford had been published that year. Its significance lay above all in the way it revealed F. Scott Fitzgerald's assumption that he had a right to the life of his wife, Zelda, as an artistic property. She went mad, confined to what Mark Schorer has called her ultimate anonymity---to be storyless. Anonymity, we have long believed, is the proper condition of woman. Only in 1970 were we ready to read not that Zelda had destroyed Fitzgerald, but Fitzgerald her: he had usurped her narritive."

About May Sarton, Heilbrun writes, "In her book Journal of a Solitude, she deliberately set out to recount the pain of the years covered by (her book) Plant Dreaming Deep." Sarton had admitted that in Plant Dreaming Deep, she had written in the old genre of female autobiography, which tends to find beauty even in pain and to transform rage into spiritual acceptance. Because of Sarton's deliberate recounting of pain not previously revealed, Heilbrun marked 1973 as the "watershed in women's autobiography."

"Above all other prohibitions, what has been forbidden to women is anger, together with the open admission of the desire for power and control over one's life."

"No memoir has been more admired and loved in recent years than Eudora Welty's One Writer's Beginnings. Yet I think there exists a real danger for women in books like Welty's in the nostalgia and romanticizing in which the author, and we in reading them, indulge. Virginia Woolf remarked that 'Very few women yet have written truthful autobiographies.'" (The whole quote is Heilbrun's.)

Ginny, we can add Writing a Woman's Life to the list, but it probably should be read along with a biography or autobiography.

Those last critical comments from Heilbrun and Virginia Woolf make me think that at some point, we could add to our discussions the subject.......how has women in books affected how we think about women. Have all those male writers and women writing like men (well, hey, who were the first professors of literature? the first teachers of writing? Men) affected how we think? Do we notice how few categories female characters have lived in? Do we even feel/see a difference between our lived lives and how women are written? What was your first reaction to Woolf's A Room of One's Own? Have you read it yet? Did you know that London's libraries were not accessible to women? That Woolf had to be a guest of a male member of a library, just to get in the door? That's one experience told in A Room of One's Own.

Ah, choices, choices, books, books. We'll have a good time, no matter where we begin!! What wonderful books listed above!!! (Yellow Wallpaper and The Awakening could be read together. Both are short and are about similar issues. Both are fantastic and are classics in writing about real women's lives.)

Betty

Betty, I can barely sit in my chair! We have read the same writers and share the same thoughts about them! What a joy to find someone who speaks as if they have been walking around in my mind!!!

The nominations are about to be closed.

If you have not nominated a book, please do so before Wednesday!

May I suggest another? It is The Color of Water: A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James MxBride.

MARVELLE, sorry, there is so much going on and I can't reconstruct my post.

GINNY, I have a question on the definition of "Women IN Literature" :

Does that mean books BY women (and ONLY by women?) ABOUT women and their respective condition through the ages - to chart progress, as it were ?

Both The Color of Water and The Red Tent were discussed here, the former in 1998, the latter in 2000. The discussions can be found in the archives.

Thank you, Lou, Marvelle, Traude, Ginny Ann (gaj) and Pat, appreciate your enthusiasm, support and help.

Welcome Betty!! So good to see you here, thank you for those suggestions and enthusiasm, it's good to have you back!

OK something OLD Department: Traude, thank you for your two sets of questions, let's look at them now. I realize at first things seem a bit confusing but with the help of ALL of you and your willingness to try new things and new formats we'll have it worked out in a trice. First off, Traude's questions:

1. Does that mean books BY women (and ONLY by women?) ABOUT women and their respective condition through the ages - to chart progress, as it were ?

It means any book by anybody which shows how women are portrayed in literature? If we add the element of a timeline then we may be able to see patterns, too, (if we read enough authors, that is, one author....we'll have to decide if we think one author exemplifies an entire age?)

2. Are we going to include in our study women writers irrespective of their provenance and ethnicity ?

Yes.

Would male authors or playwrights be considered, e.g. Hendrik Ibsen for his famous plays "Hedda Gabler" and "The Doll's House" ?

Sure. I just saw The Master Builder in London and the women in that one don't come off very well but Patrick Stewart (he of the Star Trek fame) sure did.

Or, for that matter, "Effie Briest" by Theodor Fontane? --the Washington Post Book Club tackled that one last year, and quite well too.

Super, never heard of it, thank you for bringing it here.

Now this morning we're about to embark on something new. As we've decided to retain this general folder for general thoughts, I thought (and could be totally wrong) that we might once a week like to be jolted a bit by an actual passage from literature which may or may not speak to issues germane to all women, so let's begin this morning with Topic Tuesday #1:

Presenting here for your reading pleasure, a woman you don't know depicted in a situation described by the author of the piece. It appears that this husband and wife have a difference of opinion concerning gifts given, what is your reaction to this vignette? Does this illustrate any issue common to all marriages? What are your thoughts here, it would be super if we could get a dialogue going and then we can look at how the woman here is actually portrayed. Let's give this our best and see if we can get this off the ground, your own submissions for Topic Tuesday are eagerly anticipated, I will post the entire passage in the next post for easier viewing. Let's give this a try?

Topic Tuesday Selection: September 9, 2003:

Gifts had been bestowed on me before when I returned to [my homeland], but this time the farewell was overwhelming. The gifts of course included things in gold and silver, but there were articles of costly diamond as well.

What right had I to accept all these gifts ? Accepting them, how could I persuade myself that I was serving the community without remuneration? All the gifts, excepting a few from my clients, were purely for my service to the community, and I could make no difference between my clients and co-workers; for the clients also helped me in my public work.

One of the gifts was a gold necklace worth $5,000 meant for my wife. But even that gift was given because of my public work, and so it could not be separated from the rest.

The evening I was presented with the bulk of these things I had a sleepless night. I walked up and down my room deeply agitated, but could find no solution. It was difficult for me to forgo gifts worth hundreds, it was more difficult to keep them.

And even if I could keep them, what about my children ? What about my wife ? They were being trained to a life of service and to an understanding that service was its own reward.

I had no costly ornaments in the house. We had been fast simplifying our life. How then could we afford to have gold watches ? How could we afford to wear gold chains and diamond rings ? Even then I was exhorting people to conquer the infatuation for jewellery.

What was I now to do with the jewellery that had come upon me ? I decided that I could not keep these things. I drafted a letter,1 creating a trust of them favor of the community and appointing P…R…and others trustees. In the morning I held a consultation with my wife and children and finally got rid of the heavy incubus.

I knew that I should have some difficulty in persuading my wife, and I was sure that I should have none so far as the children were concerned. So I decided to constitute them my attorneys.

The children readily agreed to my proposal. "We do not need these costly presents, we must return them to the community, and should we ever need them, we could easily purchase them," they said.

I was delighted. "Then you will plead with Mother, won’t you ?" I asked them. “Certainly,” said they.

But it was easier said than done.

"You may not need them," said my wife. "Your children may not need them. Cajoled they will dance to your tune. I can understand your not permitting me to wear them. But what about my daughters in-law ? They will be sure to need them. And who knows what will happen tomorrow ? I would be the last person to part with gifts so lovingly given." And thus the torrent of argument went on, reinforced, in the end, by tears. But the children were adamant. And I was unmoved.

I mildly put in: The children have yet to get married. We do not want to see them married young. When they are grown up, they can take care of themselves. And surely we shall not have, for our sons, brides who are fond of ornaments. And if after all, we need to provide them with ornaments, I am there. You will ask me then."

"Ask you? I know you by this time. You deprived me of my ornaments, you would not leave me in peace with them. Fancy you offering to get ornaments for the daughters-in-law ! You who are trying to make of my boys Holy Men from today! No, the ornaments will not be returned. And pray what right have you to my necklace?"

"But," I rejoined, "is the necklace given you for your service or for my service?"

"I agree. But service rendered by you is as good as rendered by me. I have toiled and moiled for you day and night. Is that no service? You forced all and sundry on me, making me weep bitter tears, and I slaved for them!"

These were pointed thrusts, and some of them went home. But I was determined to return the ornaments. I somehow succeeded in extorting a consent from her. The gifts…. were all returned. A trust-deed was prepared, and they were deposited with a bank, to be used for the service of the community, according to my wishes or to those of the trustees.

Often, when I was in need of funds for public purposes, and felt that I must draw upon the trust, I have been able to raise the requisite amount, leaving the trust money intact. The fund is still there, being operated upon in times of need, and it has regularly accumulated.

I have never since regretted the step, and as the years have gone by, my wife has also seen its wisdom. It has saved us from many temptations.

I'll just start the ball rolling here by saying it's obvious here (or is it) that this woman is married to a man of high principle who wishes to live by those principles and to have his entire family do the same. I've always thought it might be difficult to be married to a saint and this passage shows that apparently that is the case, and this passage is repeated all over the world daily but not perhaps in the interest of high moral ground.

Marriage entails some sacrifices, we might want to ask ourselves ...well there's a lot we can ask ourselves here, does the desire of one partner mean the surrender of the other, for starters? What happens when one partner has a dream, does the other have to surrender entirely to it?

what do you think of her response here?

I know from where this passage was taken and it is a good first topic for discussion. This sentence alone tells the tale and reminds us all of how our mothers/grandmothers felt:

"But service rendered by you is as good as rendered by me. I have toiled and moiled for you day and night. Is that no service? You forced all and sundry on me, making me weep bitter tears, and I slaved for them!"

I sure wouldn't want to be married to this man! Since I do not know if she married him for love or if it was an arranged marriage, I can not say she knew what she was getting into. He seems to be a man who thinks everyone must think his way. Not knowing the time this story is set in, also limits what we know of her choices.

His remark that "...my wife has also seen its wisdom..." shows they stayed together. But there is nothing said about the quality of the life she had due to her husbands beliefs.

I would not want to be married to this man either. He is a very selfish man. In the first paragraph alone, the word "I" is used four times, not including the pronouns me, my and myself.

If his wife married this man knowing this was his ideal and his intended lifestyle, then I don't think she has much grounds for changing her mind when the $5,000 necklace comes along. If, however, she married a man who lived a more conventional lifestyle, had a regular job as xxx, etc. and he's now "converted" to this new "service to man/vow of poverty" then I think that's a different matter. Because I believe I know who this man is, I would also suggest there may be circumstances which make her one option that I would have done...get a job herself, kiss him goodbye and tell him to send postcards as he travels about...not a viable one.

She may not have those options and so be trapped, as many women around the world are, in a marriage where the husband has changed the rules but she's only 'property' and not entitled to a partner compromise.

Remember this adage: "Behind every successful man, there is a good woman?"

Which reminds me of Barbara Bush when George was president; she was asked what her role would be as First Lady. And she answered that her job was always to take care of George.

I don't know where this fable came from. It might have been a parable in the Bible for all I know, one of those holds on women that shames them into submission.

I knew a wise old Yankee once, who said to me, "Mal, never refuse anything that isn't nailed down; you might find a use for it sometime. If the gift offered is money, give one tenth to your church or some charity. Keep the rest for a rainy day."

If this happened to me today, I'd hire myself a lawyer and fight for what was legally mine. Then I'd institute divorce proceedings and live life alone without the manipulation of a selfish, self-centered . . . (I want to say S. O. B., but don't know if that's allowed.)

Mal

Thank you so much, GINNY, your answer makes everything so much clearer.

Now to the passage :

The spelling of some words leads me to believe that it was penned by an English author (or a French author and his English translator) from a 19th century book that has become a classic. This is just speculation of course.

Here are my thoughts on this one long passage :

The protagonist's agonizing over whether or not to accept the generous gifts, especially the "ornaments" of whose value he is quite well aware, and what to do with them if he accepts them, reveals a narrow-minded, unbending, very literal mentality.

To ask the children how to "dispose" of the gifts is telling too. He evidently consults them first and pleads with them to help convince the mother. Their "training in a life of service" has obviously been successful (they are all apples from the same tree), and clearly more successful than his "training" of his wife ! She is bitterly resentful, but there is no question that HIS decision will prevail, and so it does. The wife will continue to toil and moil for him.

The husband's solution, the creation of a trust fund for the benefit of his beloved (really?) community is a cop-out IMHO. He is sanctimoniously proud of having divested himself of the unwelcome lucre and takes pleasure noting its continuous accumulation in the fund. But the money sits idly in it without any practical benefit to the community - or an acknowledgement to any individual, which is hardly what the givers of the generous presents had in mind. Therefore the man's "wisdom" is questionable; he is a self-satisfied cruel despot and a miser at heart, devoid of grace.

In reading this passage I found myself angered by the remark that his children and his wife "were in training" for a life of service. This patronizing placement of his wife on a level with his children as in need of 'training' was very insulting.

The man's bland assumption of all credit to himself for the services rendered is also arrogant. How much of this service would he have been able to provide if his wife had not been taking care of the daily needs of life for him?

He undermines the respect of his children for their mother by enlisting their help in getting mother to do what was 'right'. And I note that he draws upon the trust fund whenever he has need. I find the gentleman smug and self-satisfied. My sympathies are greatly with the wife. ..BAbi

In response to the e-mail on voting for 1st and 2nd choice in the list, I will go with The Handmaid's Tale for #1, and Grania:.. by Llywelyn for #2. ...Babi

But DID he touch the trust fund ?

This is what he says in the penultimate paragraph of the passage :

" ... When I was in need of funds for public purposes, and felt that I must draw upon the trust, I have been able to raise the requisite amount, leaving the trust money intact." (emphasis mine)

I have read the posts on the passage quoted with interest. I would place this piece of literature in the Victorian era or earlier.

The attitude of the husband in this piece would not be out of place with the times in which they lived. It almost sounds as if the husband may have either been a Governor of a colony or a high cleric.

What we think is outrageous would be accepted in the society of the times so we have to view the piece with this thought in mind. A woman in the Victorian era or even the early part of the Twentieth century would have to go along with the decisions made by her husband and even her sons. A woman would have no authority in this matter and neither would her opinion carry any weight in the average family.

The reader in the age in which this piece was written would if she was a woman give a sigh of sympathy but would not expect the outcome to be any different.

Carolyn

We must keep in mind that there are many cultures other than ours and the man being the "boss" is not only accepted but EXpected. I think it would be fair to tell our readers that this was an "arranged marriage" from long ago. This is NOT a Fable Mal, it is FACT!

Don't get hot under the collar, ANDY. Based on what I've read of The Story of Civilization and what has been discussed in that discussion here in Books and Lit, attitudes, whether fable or fact -- such as the one of the man described in the quote -- have passed down through eons in various cultures to the serious disadvantage of women and women's rights as human beings. I am aware of customs of other cultures, and do not always consider them advantageous for women, as I'm sure you don't. I made a point of saying that "If this happened to me today", you'll notice, realizing full well that what appeared in the quote happened long ago. My reaction was mine, and I ask no one else to agree with it.

Mal

Thank you, Mal, for the loudest therapeutic laugh I've had in months....its righteous ring is still echoing....over the instant need for divorce. I'm pretty sure I agree, as you and others noted, that choice may have been next to impossible. Depending on era and country, suicide or, for the highly developed countries, being locked away with a diagnosis of "mad" might be eventual outcomes.

Traude's words "devoid of grace" stayed with me. This rigid family system where the wife has to be handled....not consulted, heard, talked with, included....I honestly don't know how much of this cool rigidity is part of the established marriage culture and how much the specific man brings. From this short passage, I can't tell what percentage is from him.

Also, even if this is an "arranged marriage," it could still be contemporary. And I don't mean just, for example, a setting in Saudi Arabia. Finally, it doesn't have to be just from an arranged marriage, even though Andy tells us it is. This passage could be from present day, developed country, standard rigid conventional marriage with a woman who has chosen to live through her husband. I have living relatives who would fit right in.

Betty

Betty, well, I'll be darned. I didn't expect any sort of reaction at all to what I posted, and looky here at what happened! The quote hit a nerve, since I was married much too long to that sort of man, and suffered all the consequences. Don't tell me about the no choices. I knew them all, including dark thoughts of suicide and being hospitalized because of my "female hysteria".

Free at last.

Mal

Is this passage about Gandhi?

Betty

Very likely, Betty. Even if it is, I won't change a thing I've said. My husband thought he was a saint, too, and worked all his life "for the benefit of mankind". One man's meat can be another woman's poison.

Mal

marriages often combine people who have different values. where there is a choice tht can be considered,but it looks like this woman didn't have one. . . poor lady if her culture kept her imprisioned and weak lady if she simply refused to leave him. . how can we apply our current values here and now in modern countries to another time and place. when gifts were tokens of respect and not meant to be personal. what does our president do with them. they belong to the country or are returned. gifts in this case are political as well. . . too bad that when they are understood as personal. . . arrogance enters the picture. . . his . . . and hers.

To choose to follow a mans ideals, if it is really a choice.Loving someone necessarily makes us look to what they believe.In a 34 year marriage, I have sure made some choices which I would never have made for myself, including the place where I presently live.

It is more than obvious that this is the work of Mahatma Gandhi, and he underwent a sea change after his marriage.I am a firm and arrogant feminist, and I think feminism is about choice.Marriage is about growth and one chooses to grow together or apart.

Winsum is also correct, by todays standards we would hang out to dry a politician, (and gandhi was the ultimate politician) who kept gifts to himself, and yet it seems to have been acceptable at this point.

However, this is a wonderful piece of writing to show how women were and often still are, directed in behaviour by a man.Even good men like mahatma gandhi.

Anneo

I would like to try and comment on how the woman is viewed here in this piece of literature. First of all, she has a mind of her own. She is willing and able to express herself and fight for what she believes to be the right thing even though it causes dissention in her marriage. She is also viewed as a troublemaker by her husband. He knows he will have trouble on his hands. He sees her as stubborn and with ideas of her own, and most certainly not willing to go along with his wishes in this matter. This gives me an idea of what he thinks of her. She's certainly not an equal partner. He will do what he wants to do regardless of her opinions. He sees himself as the superior person. She has concern for the future of her children. He is more concerned about his own purpose and mission in life. In my opinion, she still is written as a strong woman who has regard for her future and the future of her children, and is willing to disagree with her husbands plans.

MACRUTH, we posted together ....

Regarding the passage ... I was struck by how the man sees nothing wrong in using his sons as his "attorneys" to help him manipulate his wife to his way of thinking. This ability to get people to see things his way, the firm conviction of how things must be, and the delegation of tasks [to sons] are highly admirable traits in a leader, but not so admirable in private life with one's partner. Yet I believe that this goes on today with politicans/public servants and their families.

Ginny asks "what happens when one partner has a dream, does the other have to surrender entirely to it"? Living someone else's dream? If it isn't a dream you'd have for yourself? I would not, nor would I expect my partner to do so; but in the passage Ginny relates the partnership doesn't appear to be one of equals and that, I believe, is a crucial difference. The woman, however, was strong-willed enough to argue her position for a time. Being a saint's wife would demand great strength which the woman has.

Marvelle

I can only agree with Mal and the other women. I agree that this was most likely an arranged marriage as it sounds as if neither has much more then societal care for the other or for their children. This is a definite society marriage with all its trappings. The woman and man are probably mid level and the man has some small position of authority that he has built up in his mind to be greater then it is or could be.

It sounds if the wife is the only one aware of reality and of course in that era she never had a chance. I would take a stab at this being the late Victorian or perhaps mid Edwardian era and in a mid sized to large city in the world, but not an important city..

My latest book suggestion isn't in the heading which I added recently. Sappho: A New Translation by Mary Barnard. I wasn't thinking of a full-blown discussion for this, but there it is, since Ginny mentioned Sappho would be a good one to talk about. Perhaps just informally?

Marvelle

THANKS, TRAUDE. I misread that passage, and thought he was saying that he left the principal untouched. ...Babi

May I join in? I find this discussion fascinating. The passage intrigues me because it seems to be of another time and place, yet some of the ideas are still now and here, in my time. I work with women who have been behind their husbands, community leaders who gradually and steadily lost their assets because they needed to continue their positions in the community. Maybe they weren't in the charitable or leader areas, but these men had positions and status. They did not consider their spouses' needs or wants as they moved in their circles. I will give an example of a business man who cashed in all assets and life insurance policies to maintain his image, leaving an impoverished widow.

Anyway, what I saw was not only a woman who had different values than her husband, but one who wanted for daughters-in-law what she could not have. And maybe she wanted to have something for a "rainy day" if she were left a widow.

And I know from experience that a supportive spouse, even in this day and age, works hard and long to make it possible for the "outstanding" spouse to accomplish great things.

n

Welcome nlhome!! We are delighted to see you here and I agree, this IS one fascinating conversation, I'm in awe of all of the different points you all have brought out.

As many of you have surmised, this is an arranged marriage (at the age of 9 I think?) and it is not of this time period, the date of the gifts given was 1899, and (what era does that make this?) and the speaker is Mahatma Gandhi, writing his autobiography by request, (which may account, Hats, for all the first person "I" pronouns [and maybe not!]. At any rate this is a true story and I've been sooo intrigued in what you all found in it, let's look at some of the things you all said?

Let's start by giving another Gandhi quote,

Woman is the companion of man, gifted with equal mental capacities. She has the right to participate in the minutest details in the activities of man, and she has an equal right of freedom and liberty with him.

How does this quotation jibe with what you read above?

It's the same man speaking.

Ella mentioned that This sentence alone tells the tale and reminds us all of how our mothers/grandmothers felt, and I think she's right, is there any person married who has not come up against the will of the spouse? Marriage is supposed to be give and take between equals (or is that how we see it in 2003?) It's obvious that was not what was happening here, but note what several of you seemed to get out of this short passage? Some of you are angry, aome want us to consider societal and time concerns, some appplaud his wife's resolutelness?

This is taken from Gandhi's Autobiography. His wife was essentially illiterate as were most of the women of his time and he wanted to try to teach her to read, this is not an equal partnership that we understand today to be? And yet note how he presents her?

He could have presented her any way he'd have liked, we don't know her, and he's perfectly honest about his failings with his oldest son, how does she come across HERE to you? Would you say she's worthy of admiration or not?

gaj hit the nail on the head with an "arranged marriage." What made you suspect that?

Hats if you dislike him, how do you feel toward her?

Jane said something I'd really like to hear your thoughts on: If his wife married this man knowing this was his ideal and his intended lifestyle, then I don't think she has much grounds for changing her mind when the $5,000 necklace comes along. If, however, she married a man who lived a more conventional lifestyle, had a regular job as xxx, etc. and he's now "converted" to this new "service to man/vow of poverty" then I think that's a different matter

Ok now THIS one is a toughie, CHANGE is a major issue here, they were married or whatever as children, and everybody grows up, but what of the man who one morning announces to his wife in 2003 that he has become a woman? And will now proceed as a woman thru life, there's a change? This has sparked quite a bit of discussion around here recently, what WOULD you do? The answers are quite interesting and revealing. Your husband, your supposed best friend intends to be a woman. ...so do you pick up a new woman friend??

Similarly, the writer of this book Gandhi becomes more and more an ascetic, a man devoted to living the religious (and celibate) life, but they DID at one time have a conventional lifestyle, Gandhi was an attorney and very well placed, till he became aware of the inequities in justice between those of color and those ruling Africa and India and decided to devote his life to righting that inequity, with (as one professor said recently) the only weapon the British could not fight.

So where did that leave his wife?

A definite change, Jane, I love that point of view, it never occurred to me.

She may not have those options and so be trapped, as many women around the world are, in a marriage where the husband has changed the rules but she's only 'property' and not entitled to a partner compromise. I think that's where the tears of frustration come from and we've all shed tears of frustration, and we can appreciate the feeling.

more....

Malryn mentioned in the Bible for all I know, one of those holds on women that shames them into submission. And again here we can see it's an equally ancient structure in place, that was clever.

Traude, this was also very clever, tho I did not intend it a thing to guess, you all are very sharp in identification! The spelling of some words leads me to believe that it was penned by an English author (or a French author and his English translator) from a 19th century book that has become a classic. This is just speculation of course. the book was written in prison in 1927 and 1929 , according to the translation I have so you're close!

Therefore the man's "wisdom" is questionable; he is a self-satisfied cruel despot and a miser at heart, devoid of grace. ho HO!! Love it. So you're pretty angry at him as well. Isn't that interesting, I wish you all would come INTO the Gandhi discussion and help us puzzle out this man??!!??

BaBi, the his children and his wife "were in training" for a life of service. This patronizing placement of his wife on a level with his children as in need of 'training' was very insulting. This is quite interesting as well, how IS it when a person feels the "call" and wants to live and practice what he preaches, what happens to his wife? How many wives accompany missionaries to foreign shores unwillingly or how many as some of you have mentioned wives of celebrities stand there and smile while pursuing the other's dream? Have you read Pearl Buck or Kingsolver? IS this patriarchal in nature or simply the nature of all marriages?

I did stop at this: He undermines the respect of his children for their mother by enlisting their help in getting mother to do what was 'right' Or did he? Did the children understand by this that their very revered father in fact needed help to overcome this formidable woman?

Regardless of what it says about him?

kiwi lady (Carolyn) you are right, that is exactly the era that in which this occurred, is this indicative of the lot of women then, all over the world? Or just India or South Africa?

I loved this: The attitude of the husband in this piece would not be out of place with the times in which they lived. It almost sounds as if the husband may have either been a Governor of a colony or a high cleric. Oh very well done, you're right on it, as it turns out on both counts.

And this: What we think is outrageous would be accepted in the society of the times so we have to view the piece with this thought in mind. A woman in the Victorian era or even the early part of the Twentieth century would have to go along with the decisions made by her husband and even her sons. A woman would have no authority in this matter and neither would her opinion carry any weight in the average family. Well said, so can we begin to make any conclusions about this particular time in history or maybe life in India or South Africa at this time for women? OR??

Andrea, Right on: We must keep in mind that there are many cultures other than ours and the man being the "boss" is not only accepted but EXpected. I think it would be fair to tell our readers that this was an "arranged marriage" from long ago Well I think you are right but as you can see they have grasped it themselves, which I find amazing, very sharp bunch, here.

Malryn I am aware of customs of other cultures, and do not always consider them advantageous for women, This is an excellent point: are there any other cultures in which the woman always has the advantage, offhand? Would anyone know?

Betty: I'm pretty sure I agree, as you and others noted, that choice may have been next to impossible yes I think that's what we're all reacting to, in such a situation, what can the woman do, what choices are there when no choice is available? Do you think his wife knew that when she started?

Very good point here: Also, even if this is an "arranged marriage," it could still be contemporary. And I don't mean just, for example, a setting in Saudi Arabia. yeah boy, and in spades, so it's not necessarily then a dated piece, I mean we can't say that the treatment of women in all cultures has really improved in 2003??

And this, too: This passage could be from present day, developed country, standard rigid conventional marriage with a woman who has chosen to live through her husband. I have living relatives who would fit right in. Me too. me too, and in every country, too. br>
Don't you all know somebody similar to this?

more....

winsum (Claire) I did like what you said and you were right on, it was Gandhi!

poor lady...if she simply refused to leave him. . how can we apply our current values here and now in modern countries to another time and place. when gifts were tokens of respect and not meant to be personal. what does our president do with them. they belong to the country or are returned. gifts in this case are political as well. . . too bad that when they are understood as personal. . . arrogance enters the picture. . . his . . . and hers. Super point on the Presidential gifts, I believe we have seen that before and note what Queen Elizabeth just did with hers, who DO they belong to? Mountbatten spent a great part of the end of his life trying to get back from the Duchess of Windsor the jewels her husband had given her, Mountbatten regarded them as the property of the Crown. Lots of issues here, do you admire Gandhi at all for his attitude concerning the gifts?

Anneo, again another very clever guess, what tipped you off it was Gandhi?

However, this is a wonderful piece of writing to show... I agree with you, it struck me very forcibly when I read it and I'm glad you all have found it of use in spurring discussion.

macruth , loved this: would like to try and comment on how the woman is viewed here in this piece of literature. First of all, she has a mind of her own. She is willing and able to express herself and fight for what she believes to be the right thing even though it causes dissention in her marriage. Yes! And look who it is who reveals her to us thus. I agree. When I read it the first time I wanted to say Right on, Girl!

She's certainly not an equal partner. He will do what he wants to do regardless of her opinions. He sees himself as the superior person. She has concern for the future of her children. He is more concerned about his own purpose and mission in life. Yes I agree, too, we might argue which is the most important, and considering as we now know what he accomplished, which ended UP the most important?

In my opinion, she still is written as a strong woman who has regard for her future and the future of her children, and is willing to disagree with her husbands plans. I agree, and I appreciate that view, so this woman is portrayed in her husband's memoirs, not as a venal grasping greedy woman, not as a person who is unworthy, but as a strong woman who argues, and rightly, for her own rights and thinks of others. I think she gave as good as she got and I see him acknowledging that.

marvelle, thank you for the nomination of Sappho, our nominations will stop this evening and you're just in time and so is anybody else, we've had two sentences contributed for two of the books above, will say more on that later on!!

This was a very valuable point: delegating tasks [to sons] are highly admirable traits in a leader, but not so admirable in private life with one's partner. Yet I believe that this goes on today with politicans/public servants and their families. I think you're right, and obviously also in the Royal Family of England if nowhere else.

So in essence the passage still has relevance to our discussion and our times.

Being a saint's wife would demand great strength which the woman has. Now there is a statement to chew on, have you all never wondered what it must have been like for any person to try to live with a saint?

hahaha Malryn, not somebody who considered themselves a saint (tho we could certainly paper the walls with nominations) but one who, like Gandhi and others is considered, if nothing else, a Great Man ("Mahatma" is a title, not a name, and means "Great Soul," Gandhi found it burdensome).

What do you think about any or all of the above??

ginny

I must, must - just must put here two new books suggested by an article in the WashingtonPost.com (see the Community Center for the clickable). They sound exactly like two books we all would like to read and they are about women; read this title and description:

"America's Women, by Gail Collins (Morrow, Oct.). By the editorial page editor of the New York Times, a history of American womanhood from the time of the pilgrims."

Isn't that one of our goals in this discussion? Of course, it's just about American women, but here is the book and I think one that would be exceedingly well written and researched, don't you?

Look at this one - WELL!

"Bushwomen, by Laura Flanders (Verso, March). A radio commentator takes a hard look at women in the Bush administration -- Norton, Chao, Rice, Cheney and Hughes -- and argues that they mask a highly anti-female policy."

How about that!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to interrupt the conversation but if I don't do it now, I will forget it and I just read all those new books coming out and there seem to be more nonfiction than fiction which is exciting - well, just to me - because I have so many new ones to pick from and I know that authors are coming out of the woodwork to write good nonfiction. They are making it exciting to read; it's not just dull plain facts anymore.

Okay, enough of a spiel for now.

GINNY, thanks to the magic of my computer I was able to start reading Gandhi's The Story of My Experiments With Truth online today. I have the impression after only a few chapters that Gandhi's wife was uneducated and illiterate. I wondered about that yesterday when it seemed clear that Gandhi had written what you quoted. He and his wife were married when he was only 13 years old.

I guess what bothers me most about Gandhi's wife and about women in Ancient cultures we've examined in The Story of Civilization is this: What if the woman who was as subdued as Gandhi's wife obviously must have been was the true saint and had the potential for greatness? All I can think is there has been a terrible waste of talent and intelligence and drive and even progress for too many centuries than I like to consider.

I like what Anneo said about choice. If a woman like me, for example, had chosen the kind of life that was forced on her, it would have been fine. Men like my husband followed the example of his ancestors, who not only felt that women's place was in the home, but that their opinions and ideas didn't matter. I might as well have been uneducated and illiterate, too.

I was married in 1951, for any of you who might be interested, and I'm sad to say that such attitudes existed then in the United States and, unfortunately, probably do now.

Mal

I think it is very admiral for a woman to choose her way of life but now its gone full circle and men often expect their wives to be career women as well as mothers without taking on half the domestic responsibilities. I know young women who feel obliged to work because that is what society expects today. They could live adequately on one salary but often their spouses want holiday homes and other luxuries and women work to enable these luxuries to be obtained. I think there is this reverse pressure now which may give feelings of frustration just as deep as women felt when they were forbidden to work outside the home.

Carolyn

Gandhi's wife was raised to expect exactly what she received in marriage. I have a feeling that one reason she resisted Gandhi's attempts to teach her to read was because tradition stated that she wasn't supposed to learn to read; that what was good enough for her mother and all the other female ancestors she had was good enough for her. What she was not taught to expect was Gandhi's asceticism, which eliminated any sort of pleasure -- and even Gandhi himself -- from her marriage. I saw hints of Gandhi's later asceticism in what he writes about his early life.

I have thought for a long time that men and women who are dedicated to a cause, even if that dedicated cause is a profession, should not be married. Their minds are too preoccupied with their endeavors for them to be good spouses or good parents.

For women in my particular predicament (and there were many of us) the change that arose was not with their husband, but with themselves. We plugged along doing our housework and raising our kids and taking care of our husband with little or no acknowledgment and no reward. One morning we woke up and knew something was terribly wrong. When writers like Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir came in our vision, we realized that the way we felt was not selfish, but that the freedom for developing what we are is our right.

Most women in my generation thought divorce was a terrible thing; that the family was the most important thing and any idea of putting ourselves first was wrong. The kind of change I mention above can be terribly difficult for a man whose heritage says he's the dominant figure and what he decides is law.

I'm not sure today whether American society expects women to work, as CAROLYN has said, or whether women must work to bring in income that keeps their families alive and well because in too many cases the money earned by one wage-earner is not enough to pay for survival.

Mal

Such interesting comments from everyone. Great thinkers here!!

On the issues of sacrifices and compromises in career families...one career or two careers...so many things come into play: the quality of the relationship, values, marriage skills, culture. A mentor of mine has written several books on two-career families (not two jobs, but two full-blown careers) and has interviewed couples across many categories of issues. If there is a common finding that surfaces again and again, it is that each partnership has to work things out according to that particular partnership's needs. What works for one couple may not work for any other couple.

In her first book about needs of career couples, she told of the chaotic fourth year of her own marriage 20 years earlier. At that time, she had just accepted an assistant professor position at a university in another state, to begin the following year. She would commute back to their home in New York about once a month for a year, as they counted on his moving from his current university position to the university where she would begin shortly....he had been promised an offer within 6-12 months, as a condition of her acceptance. Two different departments, same university. It was where they both wanted to be and her offer happened to come first. They celebrated and looked forward to a challenging but exciting year. Then they learned she was pregnant.

She recounted what they did and how, 20 years later, she still couldn't believe they lived through it. The baby was born and stayed with her father (my mentor's husband) and large family support system while my mentor went off by herself to her new university position 1,500 miles away. She flew home every weekend for almost a year to be with her infant daughter and husband. She remembers very little understanding or support outside of her family, but remembers her husband saying if it had been reversed and he had commuted for a year, missing all that time with his daughter, that fewer people would have said to him, how could you do that? She listed many things learned through that experience and many questions still unanswered.

Their largest surprise that year was her husband's experience. Being a trooper, but not really prepared, he was willing to do his best, with his mother-in-law's and mother's help, to care for his infant daughter. What he wrote 20 years later, though, was that the experience changed him completely, that it transformed him as a father. He was pretty sure he would not have been that hands-on involved with an infant if her mother had been with them every day. It also increased his respect for women, he wrote, and affected forever how he related to female colleagues with children. My mentor wrote that she wasn't ever completely sure she did the right thing, leaving her daughter, except for what her daughter gained....a different kind of father than she might have had.

This mentor was the one who taught me to notice that when we ask a new male acquaintance what he does for a living, that we don't ask, "Do you work outside the home?" That we never ask that of men but always ask women should be thought about.

My brother-in-law, through economic happenstance, ended up staying home with 2 young daughters while my sister worked at an office. That was never what they planned; it just happened. A temporary situation lasted several years by choice, however. I noticed that when they visited my parents, my brother-in-law would be asked if he had been interviewing for jobs and my sister would be asked things about the house. My sister privately complained to me that my parents would tune her out when she told something exciting about her job and my brother-in-law's feelings were hurt when no one had anything to say about his stacks of special dishes he had spent hours preparing, one a special cake made with his daughters.

I have nieces who belong to another brother who, as adults, noticed that their mother, my sister-in-law, came alive as a person when she eventually began to work at a library after her children were grown. They had always known her as a quiet, unhappy person, until her world expanded.

These are three experiences....my mentor, sister and nieces....who help me see that there isn't any standard experience for everyone, that "stay at home" mothers (and fathers) or mothers who work outside the home don't come with identical definitions or experiences, that there are unique circumstances and choices....even changing circumstances for the same person over time.

It was Marvelle who reminded us that ethnic women and poor families of every background have always had to work outside the home. I've read papers that break down all the economic categories and add up the surprisingly small percentage of U.S. white women who have ever had the choice of where to work. A statement from one paper stayed with me....it's a huge subject for a medium-sized group of women. The paper was about the dramatic job changes for women just after WWII and into the "domestic" 1950s.. Black and hispanic women lost good jobs to men but had to continue working at lower paying jobs. White women were under enormous pressure to go home to stay....this was a new public message, was not a subject of concern in the 30s and early 40s. A related statistic...the number of women entering graduate school in the 1930s was higher than in the 1950s....this new pressure to be "at home" infiltrated everything. Think of all the convenience appliances invented and advertised on television to help women save time and create more beautiful homes.

I think I've drifted from the original topic......pardon me, but it's so much fun to be looking at these things with such smart women.

Betty

Betty none of my grandchildrens mothers have to work outside the home. I know they are very lucky but their husbands work very hard and long hours in very stressful jobs to enable them to do this. My eldest son and his wife want to put their children through Private Schools so my DIL is going back into the Police Force but its a choice she wants to make so they can enjoy the same good lifestyle while paying huge school fees. There are very good public schools where they live but they have made this choice. Its not to make ends meet as I said its a deliberate lifestyle choice. I had to work from necessity and how I would have loved to be able to spend those early years at home. I had a three month break when we adopted the twins and how I loved being home!

Carolyn

I like Mrs. Gandhi's spunk. She speaks up for herself, her sons and her daughters in law. Her words do not count, but at least, she gets them out of her system. I think she sees into the future and asks questions. "And who knows what will happen tomorrow?" I think Mrs. Gandhi is practical minded.

Gandhi is on a philosophical trip so he can not see or think of practicalities. Besides, Gandhi is trying to mold the whole household into "saints."

The time, place and circumstances are different. The human nature is the same as ours today. These people are just like us.

This statement really made me angry. "I somehow succeeded in extorting a consent from her." He brainwashed her!!

I have only recently heard about this folder and it appeared interesting until I read the posts.I have to agree with Anneo about the voice in the wilderness.We have many fine female writers here downunder but if nominated they wouldn't be considered as they are seemingly only available here.I think we all agree that the women of today have much more freedom of choice the they did in yesteryears.In those days women expected to be subserviant and it was the done thing to wait on their Husbands hand and foot and give them all the respect they demanded.It wasn't a chore as it was simply part of life for them.How things have changed.My Maternal Grandmother died at a very early age and I never remember her going out and enjoying herself.My Mother also worked hard to make a home and look after Dad as he was the breadwinner.Now we have found ourselves I wonder if we are really better off than these heroines in the books.We all make our own choices and if we want to remain spinsters we can.By the way Anneo my favourite is also Wuthering Heights.

HATS, I don't think Gandhi brainwashed his wife; rather he pressured her, and used their sons to pressure her, into giving in to his point of view. She gave in but we don't know if she actually believed his arguments.

GINNY noted Gandhi's quote that 'woman is companion to man.' If we switch the quote to 'man is companion to woman' we can see a different slant and that there's a hierarchy in both statements.

Marvelle

Even in Victorian literature we read about women who ruled the roost. They often accomplished this by using their feminine wiles. There are matriachs even in the Austen novels who had their husbands on the hop and their children under their thumbs. Women were not always portrayed as being subservient even in books written 150yrs ago!

Carolyn

Welcome Val!! We are very glad to see you here, I'm a bit dismayed at your concern here, tho: " have only recently heard about this folder and it appeared interesting until I read the posts." I'm going to gently disagree and say that the posts here are very fine thoughtful and intelligent assessments of that particular passage in literature and all of the issues it raised, but I wonder, since it was by an Indian author, if I can understand the objection raised or the apparent distribution problem in Australia? We've read Jill Ker Conway, an Australian, in the Books before, and very much enjoyed it. I wonder (I must admit now my curiousity is very aroused) what authors you have in Australia which are not available here? I am willing to bet you they are available here, and I would like to know the title of a book you would recommend that we might add to the list here? It wont' take a moment to find out on the internet if we can get it, do recommend one?

We would like, if permitted, to look at every country's authors and representatives of every time and culture: I started with an Indian but I will find an Australian for Topic Tuesday next week and hope that the difference in perspective ( I know no person on earth who has ever been to Australila who did not love it including my Daughter in Law and the man who keeps my grape stand said if he had not been married he would have stayed there) so Australia has a lure for me and I'm intersted in learning more.

I was NOT impressed with that other book we read about the woman who traveled all the way across Australia, (what WAS her name?) and the treatment of camels in the desert, thank you, but I'm sure there are worse things to read about!

At any rate, WELCOME and you've stirred us up, don't run off, let's see if we can find an Australian author for Topic Tuesday next week!!

I wonder if we are really better off than these heroines in the books THAT is a super point and worth discussing, what do the rest of you think?? Love it, many thanks!

marvelle, what an interesting thought: Gandhi's quote that 'woman is companion to man.' If we switch the quote to 'man is companion to woman' we can see a different slant and that there's a hierarchy in both statements. But you know Gahdhi was a very spiritual man, could he have taken this from the Bible itself?

It does alter conceptions, tho, many thanks.

Hats, I love your always frank reactions to things! statement really made me angry Extort, I wonder how he meant that, I will be interested to see if you change your thoughts at the end of his book or intensify them!

Ella thank you very much for those two nominations, we now have a partial slate, with a sentence for each, here are the nominees with their sentences so far, if you don't see YOUR book here, please either post one sentence about it or why we might want to read it either here or write me?

1. Yellow Raft in Blue Water: by Michael Dorris. This is a book about three generations of Native American women, each discussing the same events from her own point of view. It not only gives a clear portrait of each woman, but shows how important generation and culture are in our understanding of life.

2.The Awakening: by Kate Chopin

In a society with a stereotypical view of women, one woman struggles to be true to her own identity.

3. Writing a Woman's Life:

"A magical little book on all the ways we write our lives, including unconsciously, this title is popular in women's studies courses and could be read on its own or paired with an autobiography or biography. (P.S. The author has written 10 literate mysteries under a pen name.)

4. Bushwomen, by Laura Flanders (Verso, March). A radio commentator takes a hard look at women in the Bush administration -- Norton, Chao, Rice, Cheney and Hughes -- and argues that they mask a highly anti-female policy."

5.America's Women, by Gail Collins (Morrow, Oct.). By the editorial page editor of the New York Times, a history of American womanhood from the time of the pilgrims."

Malryn, that edition of Gandhi online is quite interesting, I love the notes, it's confusing at first, those numbers, but it's annotated and I learned a bit actually about the text that I did not know. Thank you for bringing that here, we have put the Online Text in the Gandhi heading.

What if the woman who was as subdued as Gandhi's wife obviously must have been was the true saint and had the potential for greatness? I bet Gandhi would say a saint is a saint, obviously he considered his mother one, and the footnote in your text makes that very clear, as to the Non Christian saint.

Love it, thanks.

kiwi lady, (Carolyn) They could live adequately on one salary but often their spouses want holiday homes and other luxuries and women work to enable these luxuries I find that today's young people, many of them, start out lives in much more luxury than we ever did, do you all think so? I recall our paying the whopping sum of $18,000 for a house in 1967, and going without living room furniture for several years, today's young people often do not have children early and live in houses which rival palaces, actually All is Vanity was not that far off.

Betty, thank you for those interesting stories, this thing you said sort of reminded me of something: related statistic...the number of women entering graduate school in the 1930s was higher than in the 1950s.... The percentage of persons attending college in the 30's and the 50's was actually so small (they just reported the 50's on television the other day and it was astonishing!) in the total popluation it is astounding, does anybody have those figures to hand?

I love this discussion!

Hats I liked this, too, that you said, I like Mrs. Gandhi's spunk. She speaks up for herself, her sons and her daughters in law. Her words do not count, but at least, she gets ... Super point. Her words do not count, and I expect she knows that, yet he does admit that some of her shots hit home, it must hurt, that kind of sacrifice demanded, would you think? When you can see it hurts the other person? For their own good?

Or yours?

OK if you have nominated a book in the heading and you don't see it with a sentence please do that work for us and give us a nice slate to vote on asap?

I'm going to tear apart my bookshelves and find an Australian author!!

ginny

Yep Ginny they do. My youngest son 31 has 3 living rooms and 3 and a half baths! He does not have a mortgage either! As I have said before my kids homes are beyond anything my hubby and I would have dreamed of owning!

Australian book -- I happen to be reading one. It is Broken Vows by Cory Daniells. It is a romantic fantasy. I started it because I am in an on-line discussion of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FRWbookclub/

The books I have suggested

Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe. - fictional life of a woman written by a man. Story set in the 1600's

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross - novel based on the life of a woman who disguised as a man becaame the only woman to become a pope in the Catholic Church. Set in the 9th century.

Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas byMorgan Llywelyn - A novel based on the real life of an Irish chieftain (Grace O Malley)who struggled against the English ruler Queen Elizabeth the First.

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Maggie Smith. Life of an Irish immigrant family in Brooklyn before the First World War seen through the eyes of a daughter.

The Red Tentby Anita Diamant Fictionalized life of Dinah, the daughter of Jacob.

The Color of Water:A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride (mistyped above). A loving memoir by a man who gives much of the credit for his success in life to his mother.

Fiona Kidman is a good contemporary writer who I would compare with Margaret Drabble. Her books are not pot boilers but literature. She is a NZ writer.

Carolyn

Janet Turner Hospital(Australian author) has written a book that I think is very relevant to the times. It's Due Preparations For The Plague. I haven't read it but have heard reviews that call it a taut and confronting novel, that propels the reader into the chaos of terror, and cruelty, and the unexpected hope of survival. I think it was written after Sept 11 th and the mass epidemic fears that followed.I've read other books of hers that have been very good.

I think she's the writer in residence at USC in the States and organizes writers festivals over there.

Jan

It would be extremely useful -- when nominating (and included in the heading?) -- to note if the work is available online.

My nominations available online: Herland by Gilman Perkins, Little Women by Alcott, and Sappho (different translations can substitute for Bayard as previously mentioned)

My one nomination not available online (although I'll doublecheck) is the little volume available in paperback, "The Robber Bridgegroom" by Welty.

A second thought: OUP books wouldn't be commonly available unless one's library has it or it's online.

Marvelle

Oroonoko:The Royal Slave by Aphra Behn. - Aphra Behn (1640-1689) was the first professional woman writer in English literature. It is avaiable on line.

I have found a passage which is short and would like your comments. The author is a woman.

"I have sometimes thought that a woman's nature is like a great house full of rooms: there is the hall, through which everyone passes going in and out; the drawing room, where one receives formal visits; the sitting room where members of the family come and go as they list; but beyond that, far beyond are other rooms, the handles of whose doors perhaps are never turned; no one knows the way to them, no one knows whither they lead; and in the innermost room, the holy of holies, the soul sits alone and waits for a footstep that never comes"

Anyone like to comment on this passage and maybe guess who wrote it and in what era it was written.

CAROLYN!!! (KIWI LADY) What a fabulous idea, thank you for that, into the heading it goes, I love that, it's perfect for our cause here and I appreciate your bringing it to us!!!

I'm finding Australian books out the window here in little old South Carolina and B&N online has tons of them, all you have to do is type in under Keyword, Australian Authors and there were almost 1000 available. There seems to be one called Rabbit Proof Fence which the stores here say they can get in a week but the online says goes out immediately that I would like to try, it would seem that there is a definite national voice there which we would greatly benefit from hearing, that's one more great thing to come out of this discussion.

First off, here are the nominations slate with their "sentences" to date. I do apologize to all of you who nominated a book for....asking you to help with the sentences, but we have a LOT goign on in the Books right now, and I need your help. I had always intended this as a collaborative venture and I hope you can help share (as Carolyn just did, nearly dropped my TEETH on that one, how fabulous!!) so here is the ballot to date (who have I left off) and what's missing now?

Wow Carolyn wow, that is one MARVELOUS piece of writing, wow, wow wow, it's now in the heading, jeepers I actually have chills, the soul sits waiting for the footstep that never comes, it sounds to me like....Mrs. Dalloway, for some reason, wow, do any of you all have any thoughts on the secret rooms and are women the only ones who have them and the soul sitting waiting for the footstep that never comes? WOW!! THANK you Carolyn!

GINNY, it is a type of Mrs. Dalloway, in philosophy and general time period of the author, only across the ocean (originally). I believe it's the American Edith Wharton, who lived in Europe when a mature woman, and the period would be late 19th century. I'm proud that we at SN discussed Wharton's House of Mirth -- but the quote isn't from that novel -- and I think she's a master writer.

I have her works but haven't cheated by checking dates etc. However, I say it's Edith Wharton because of the sentence structure (no one writes a sentence quite like her) and richness of thought and imagery.

Marvelle

My take on that marvelous quote from Carolyn is also 19th century, probably because of the 'drawing room' reference. I must confess to an ignorance of Mrs. Dalloway, having never read Virginia Woolf.

I think everyone has 'inner room' of the soul, tho' not everyone is of an introspective nature and is aware of it. Actually, I think the inner room of the extrovert it more deeply buried, and the door often locked against self as well as others.

Ginny Ann, on looking over your list of books, I found that I have read three, and thanks to your descriptions, now want to read the others. I've added them to my book list.

BOOK DESCRIPTION: MIDDLEMARCH A portrait of provincial Victorian life. A contrast between a woman passionate to use her gifts and talents in the world of the 1830's, and a pretty, spoiled woman who sees a man "whom it would be delightful to enslave". Virginia Woolf described Middlemarch as "..one of the few English novels written for grown-up people". {It is, however, 793 pgs in paperback form. Fair warning.} ..Babi

I will wait for everyone to come in and say their piece and then I will tell you all! I must say that this discussion has brought me some authors I have never thought of reading!

The other day I saw a BBC adaptation of Love in a Cold Climate (Nancy Mitford) we must not forget some of the satire that women have written- their feelings about the society in which they live. Nancy saw the hypocrisy of the era in which she lived. How the privileged lived in the early quarter of the twentieth century. I must say that the BBC do some wonderful screen plays.

Carolyn

I won't venture a guess as to author or time period. Those things really don't matter much to me; it's what I get from what I read of someone's work that's important to me. This piece gets right to my soul. I'm sure we've all had experiences with people, and perhaps particularly with men, who thought they "knew" us...but they were still in the "hall"---they hadn't even bothered to really dig deep enough into our thoughts and feelings to get to the other rooms...let alone through what I think of as a "secret wall" to the deep interior spaces this author speaks of. I'm looking forward to learning who wrote that piece, Carolyn. Excellent choice.

Yes I agree and wonderful comments, too, just roaring in to say here that Carolyn's topic is for TODAY thru MONDAY it's not the new Topic Tuesday and I can delay THAT one if necessary, so don't wait till Tuesday, jump right on in NOW!!

The piece was not intended to be for Tuesday its just a piece I found and thought that you would enjoy the sentiments expressed by the writer and I was interested to see if the anyone would guess the origin and the time frame it was written in. I think the sentiments expressed are eternal however and apply to all women for all time.

Carolyn

Ever heard me use the word "hate"? I don't remember ever using it here. I hate the passage about "women's nature." Using the excuse that there IS a woman's nature, so many inaccurate and awful characteristics have been attributed to women by so many writers....check out how our nature doesn't allow us to grasp the skills of a judge because we are too emotional and are incapable of sound moral judgment....the very popular belief about women until the last 30 years. (Brain size was another reason.)

Except for a temporary advantage in language skills of girls over boys and a temporary advantage of spacial skills of boys over girls, there are literally no differences in boy-girl brain development. The social development of young girls beginning to value connectedness and relationships and young boys beginning to get the message of money achievement equals manhood.....this is social learning that we get from our families, schools, textbooks, television, etc. LEARNING. A "nature" is not involved. It's a myth. Little boys weren't born knowing that you're a sissy if you cry when you break your arm. We teach it.

I hate the last image in the passage of a soul "waiting" for a footstep that might never come. How passive. It fits, though, with the popular social training of girls waiting on life to act upon them instead of going out to write their own lives.

Word Magic. I learned this term a long time ago, but think of it often. Words are so powerful. "Woman's nature"......that term is so embedded in our culture, I wonder if it will ever fade. Our best medical schools and social science departments have for decades attempted to spread the word of true biological and social differences, but unlearning is slow, slow, slow.....

Betty

Oh but don't you think or do you think that the "footstep" might NOT be that of a friend or lover that somebody has put their life on hold for but instead an Opportunity? How many of us "wait?" What's that poem about waiting? They also serve who also stand and wait?

John Donne?

It used to enrage me, now I feel differently. I used to think it was unfair?

Would you all say "waiting" no matter who or what it's for, is undesirable because it's passive?

You guys really need to come into Gandhi, the epitome of Passiveness as a Weapon. What do the rest of you think about this one, love it, Everybody and thank you, again, Carolyn!!!

ginny

Ginny said: Oh but don't you think or do you think that the "footstep" might NOT be that of a friend or lover that somebody has put their life on hold for but instead an Opportunity? How many of us "wait?" What's that poem about waiting? They also serve who also stand and wait?

John Donne?

It used to enrage me, now I feel differently. I used to think it was unfair?

Would you all say "waiting" no matter who or what it's for, is undesirable because it's passive

This one really has meaning to me... My husband was in Vietnam for two tours... There we were.... waiting for him... did we live our lives? sure, how do children wait for daddy? both of our sons were born while Dave was in Vietnam... so life went on... but we were definately in a holding pattern... waiting for him. Was it important for us to wait? we thought so. Did we serve? no one will ever make me believe all those prayers weren't at least partically responsible for his safe return, both times. were our lives on the line??? not the physical danger his was in, but considering the life some wives lived I do believe our family's life was on the line.... Was waiting passive? not to my way of thinking....

Lou

I have to disagree with Betty on her characterization of the differences between men and women (boys and girls). I strongly believe that men and women are equal in some kind of legal sense and opportunity-wise. But experience tells me that they are not the same. The differences seem to be attached to the two main hormones that drive us, estrogen and testosterone. Men have great upper body strength. Women are more patient. Clearly I am generalizing, but I base those generalizations upon much observation. I certainly don't mean that all women are patient or that all men have more upper body strength than a woman.

I think women are a great deal more complicated than men are. Thus, Freud could actually ask the question "What do women want?" and mean it. Women seem to find it far easier to understand men than men find it to understand women.

As for the passage, I'd say written in the late nineteenth, early twentieth century, most likely by Virginia Wolfe. It certainly has to be written by someone who is familiar with drawingrooms and the word "list" when it means wherever they want to go.

I have just argued myself into nineteenth century. Could be British or American and could be Wharton. Someone else has already guessed Wharton, I think. She was big on houses and rooms and using them to give symbolic meaning.

~Maryal

Ginny--the "standing and waiting" line is from Milton's sonnet on his blindness. Have forgotten the number.

Maryal

Indeed I believe men and women are very different. For instance they learn differently. Boys learn in a tactile way while girls learn in a passive way - from lectures and books. As girls are far outstripping boys in the classroom they are now in my country devising separate classes and different ways of learning for some subjects.

There was an interview the other day which pointed out the different ways men and women read road maps and many other different everyday activities which are approached in different ways by each sex. How many rows have occurred when travelling and reading road maps! Think about it!

Men approach life problems in a different way to women too.

Remember there are exceptions to every rule but in general there are differences. The Mars / Venus theory has been verified by many of the young marrieds I know. We are different and in our difference we do complement each other.

In the passage I found, I do not believe its a literal waiting for footsteps - it was waiting for opportunities that possibly cannot be accessed because of lifes pathway or perhaps because of society's restrictions.

Carolyn

Lou2, I loved your story of active waiting for someone to return safely from Vietnam. A different kind of waiting, indeed.

Maryal, when I hear something about women's intuition or something similar, as you put it, that women do a better job of understanding men than men do of women, what comes to mind is how women are socialized to pay attention to the needs of others. In this paying attention, we're so often tuned in to every little nuance of activity, beliefs, feelings. No wonder we have a better understanding of men; nurturing and understanding go hand in hand.

I loved a woman's story of noticing that, at her family's crowded house at Christmas, that when a man walked into the room, the group of women seated together talking looked over at him, momentarily stopping the conversation. Later, writing about it, she named the looking at him as a visual checking-in, seeing if he might have something to ask or say, checking to see if he needed anything. Later, just for fun, she and 2 other friends began to notice on purpose what happened when a woman walked into a room compared to when a man walked into a room. What they observed in families, churches, classrooms was the visual tuning-in and interruption of conversation the women did for men, but men did not do for women. Her article reminded the reader that slaves, maids, lower classes in general, must continually assess the needs of the master, employer, head of the family, etc.

Carolyn, the Mars/Venus book and others with similar themes are popular self-help or pop psychology books based on exciting and highly marketable ideas. They are not supported by legitimate studies governed by science guidelines of American Medical Association, APA or university departments or National Institute of Science. National Institute of Health, or National Institute of Mental Health. (The science guidelines for social and mental health studies are as detailed and strict as those for developing new medicines.) Sometimes it is difficult to tell what's legitimate, especially when "studies" are cited. One quick way is to look for backcover blurbs from NIH, NIMH, NIS, AMA, etc. or in the back of the book for details on funding, etc.

What's really frustrating to me is the gap between the enormous self-help, pop-psych shelves and the smaller science and social psychology shelves in bookstores. And, by the way, ask any publisher what book sells.....that men and women are truly different? or that men and women are truly similar? Different, of course.

An incredible survey study (across 10 years, I think??) looking at how newspapers and serious magazines/journals reported findings of gender studies.....often, a finding of "no difference" was rejected for publication. Very often, a numerical outcome of, say, 67 percent for women and 65 percent for men would be reported (for example, in the Wall Street Journal) as "Study Reports Women are Better........Than Men," not bothering to report that the difference was so slight as to be statistically insignificant. The remarkable thing about this survey study was that the overwhelming percentage of studies were finding no biological and social differences....which has been the case for several decades now....so it is just amazing (appalling) how the reluctance of the print media to showcase these findings has helped perpetuate the long popular notions of how different we are. I have a very vague memory of another article suggesting reasons for why we want differences.....I only remember the part about how the worst thing you can be called as a little boy....is that you are like a girl. No one wants to be like a girl. Sissy and much worse words, as kids get older. Think of some of the adult cursing terms....there is a lot riding on distinct differences.

Betty

Betty I realise Mars/Venus is not a book written as a medical text book but as I have said there is a lot of truth in it- both men and women I have discussed the ideas in the book with could identify with much of the thinking. The differences in learning have been results of research and so far the experimental classes are working very well for the boys. Boys 11-15 often fall behind the girls at school. Some boys do cope very well with traditional methods but there is a large group that do not. The concern about boys in education is a worldwide concern.

Carolyn

Oops, I meant to add an acknowledgement to Maryal's mentioning men's upper body strength. I know very little about physical body differences, except the most obvious, including physical build and sexual hormones. To language skills and spacial skills, I used to always add biologically based male aggression as a bio difference. The well known studies were replicated with identical results and stood unchallenged for a long time. In 2000, however, there was a monumental challenge that shook that field and called into question the origin......as part of looking at television violence and computer game violence, etc., etc. If there is something since then, I don't know it.

I heard on a tv medical news program about new theories to check out on fluctuating hormones in both men and women....we know more about women. I know so little about medical science, except what I hear on the news....isn't it wonderful that finally, finally, the medical studies that historically included only male subjects (because "women with fluctuating hormones are such poor subjects")....on such important subjects as HEART DISEASE.....now include female subjects!!! About time!!

The male-subjects-only studies that made me wonder about us as a human race were the decades of breast cancer studies that didn't include female subjects. Wasn't it in the mid 1990s that women were first included in breast cancer studies?? I keep trying to imagine a research team of mostly male researchers (??) talking about how women's hormones would screw up the study's results. Yes, it would be more complicated, therefore more expensive to include women, but, for Pete's sake!! I keep trying to imagine who it was that first interrupted this madness. Was it their secretary with breast cancer? A female Sloan Kettering oncologist? ? The first female researcher on the team?? So many women get breast cancer....how could those roadblocks have stayed in place so long? I don't get it.

Betty

If you ever need to give an example of how our culture has valued men more than women, you can tell of the years of well funded heart disease research with male subjects and the poorly funded breast cancer research....with male subjects.

Betty

Has anyone read or seen the title by Rosalie K. Fry, "The Secret of Roan Inish" which is a children's book? Its a good coming of age book with the wonderful Irish myth of woman's "seal skin-soul skin" which is mentioned in the book, "When Women Ran With Wolves". I really liked the myth and the movie is advertised as a wonderful coming of age story for a girl.

What a surprise when I looked for a used copy!! They start at $199 and go up to $499! Whoa! Look for it at your library!

There is some sort of societal directive that seems to privilege men over women. I don't think it is as strong in the US as it is in other countries. But there is no doubt that it is there.

It's interesting that the male animal is highly prized since they don't have as good a shot at survival either when they are premature or when they are aging as the female does. Women live longer.

Betty -I'm just putting a lot of emphasis on the power of hormones, estrogen and testosterone, as they influence behavior. You and I are saying much the same thing, I think.

Maryal

I"m not sure it can be considered that. I'm an artist and usician. determined not to lose my art in the clutter of wifedom I put it first, and eventually taught guitar so as to help with the income. before I had kids I worked as a clerc in someones office. . . a terrible waste of a life and I'd not do it again. So I worked and still do, producing my art, but not aking money. I think it contributed to the downfall of my marriage which lasted for twenty seven years. My husband kept saying to me "why do't yo get a REAL job" and I'd reply that I had one. The kids had a full time mom out of this arrangement and I think they benefitted. they work mainstream. My daughter just became an assistant professor of psych. at new york university ? I think. no raise in income but nice to finally be acknowledged as a WORTHY person. too bad we have to make an extra effort to PROVE that even to ourselves. . . . claire

and I refuse to edit this thing...that is WORK (g)

Well folks - time to reveal all.

The piece was written by Edith Wharton. It was written in 1891. It was from a tale called "The Fullness of Life." I am reading a biography at the moment called "Edith Wharton - A Biography - No Gifts from Chance" It is interesting that in the early part of her writing career she was more of a celebrity in London than she was in New York. I do agree that her writing is "very English in style". Its an interesting read - a very big book- and if you haven't read it would make a good winter read.

Carolyn

Wow, so it was Wharton! Her style is so individual that I thought it had to be her; and she often uses houses and rooms as metaphors as Maryal noted.

I did some research on this particular story after CAROLYN revealed the author. (Thanks ever so much, Carolyn. This has been a fun discussion.) There is an exciting tale of conflict behind the quoted passage and the story from which it came.

Here's the very short story, click on "The entire work" sublink to open the story itself:

Edith Wharton's "Fulness of Life"

The work is in public domain but the link itself is prohibited from commercial use by the Universtiy of Virginia.

Probably the two persons whose expressed opinions on the work agree the closest are BETTY and EDITH WHARTON. Wharton hated it. She wrote the story when she was trying to fit into her society's dictates on gender roles.

Edith Wharton wouldn't allow the story to be reprinted after its initial 1893 publication. She called the story crude and "one long shriek." There is a strong touch of autobiography in the story. Wharton was married to a man, Teddy, who was unfaithful to her and who she didn't love. Speculation is that in writing "Fulness of Life" Wharton was trying to persuade herself into loving Teddy but she finally realized it couldn't be done and she divorced him and lived her own life.

CAROLYN, your passage stirred me to read some of Wharton's ghost stories. She's one of the best. I look forward to reading the biography you recommended.

Marvelle

Marvelle - Whether Wharton hated the tale or not this passage is one of the most widely quoted of her work. I myself think the passage does reflect the life a woman had to lead in the society of the time. It should be pointed out too that her husband Teddy suffered from Bi Polar disorder and probably was unable to give her the emotional support she craved. She also had her own shall we say " artistic temperament" like many great creative people she suffered from periods of depression. She had many male friends but according to the biography I read she had only one real love affair and this was not consummated until she was well into middle life. She tended to be very outspoken and could often be cruel to her friends. She destroyed some friendships. I can't help wondering about whether she too had a mental illness. I am not being disparaging by stating this fact. Some of the most creative and brilliant historical figures suffered from mental illness.

Edith Wharton fascinates me and the only work I am familiar with is the "House of Mirth" so I am keen to read some more of the work after I finish the large pile of books I have waiting for me!

Must go now as Ruth has arrived and we are going to the library (where else?) and grocery shopping!

Carolyn

Carolyn, our discussion here of House of Mirth (last year?) was wonderful, spirited, complicated, sometimes contentious and uncomfortable, full of opposite perceptions.....around Wharton's intentions. Some thought it was a straight forward story of life at that time. Some thought it was a statement of how awful it was for women at that time. It reminded me of our discussion several years earlier of Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf....was Woolf saying something about Mrs. Dalloway's limited life? Some thought yes, some thought no.

Marvelle, I'm stunned. What are the odds of an author not liking her own work!! I was prepared to feel lonely and defensive about not liking something. Earlier today, I was thinking about the middle part, minus the "nature" opening and "waiting" ending. There's something appealling about rooms of the mind....is that what others were responding to?

Maryal, I wish I could put my hands on a provocative piece about...maybe it was about PMS or general affects of low estrogen. I won't do it justice because my memory of it is sketchy. Very much the opposite of what you'd expect....a true stepping back for a different perspective. Instead of a negative connotation, the anger and irritibility were associated with freedom of expression....instead of our usual cushioning or hiding negative emotions, the shift in hormone levels allowed letting go in an authentic way. PMS allowing true selves to be seen. No apologies. Something like that. I do remember my own thoughts when I read it. I thought of a statement of anger from a man in a business meeting being labeled as a show of strength. Anger from a woman in any setting is rarely seen as something positive. Even "negative" anger is something we shouldn't feel....which is ridiculous. Emotions are emotions are emotions. We have them.

Betty

Wharton:The Decoration of Houses

Wharton: The Age of Innocence

Wharton: The House of Mirth

Wharton: Glimpses of the Moon

Wharton: The Hermit and the Wild Woman and Other Stories

Wharton: The Valley of Decision

I think women do not show anger easily - perhaps thats why we end up with so many conditions which reflect suppressed anger. It took me a long time to realise that I was entitled to get angry! I think its something which has been pumped into us about being the peacemaker or the gentler sex. There is nothing wrong with showing anger as long as its not put into actions which cause physical or mental harm to others. I can remember once after my 2 BILs and my hubby got on my nerves (because they were acting with a patronising manner towards me. We all worked together) I picked up a sugar basin and smashed it on to the floor and then walked into my bedroom. We had work breaks in our kitchen as Rod and I lived on the orchard premises. Five minutes later there was a timid knock on my door and my eldest BIL stood there with a tray of tea and biscuits and a dazed look on his face. They all got a shock as I was always so amenable.

Carolyn

Good for you Carolyn.

A few years ago I read most of Wharton's The Age of Innocence. . I did not like it.

I did like the House of Mirth but for some reason I could not get the book in time for the discussion. I am going to look for some more books by Wharton and compare them to The House of Mirth.

I should never have heard of Edith Wharton if not for the mooted discussion on SN last year.

Carolyn

Louisa May Alcott did not like little girls. She was much more comfortable with boys and men and her portrait of Jo in Little women was probably autobiographical.

She wrote Little Women strictly for the money and never cared for the book. Little Men and a third following book, were more to her taste.

I believe that in the book, having Jo marry an older man is very telling. Often a girl that is different in temperament from other girls and by this I don't mean gay, just not as girlish as most girls and women were or behaved back in Alcott's day; needed extra growing time and maturity and older men were more apt to appreciate a woman of this temperament.

In Alcott's day, many gay women would take in a boarder or a companion, ostensibly to help with expenses. Homosexuality was there, just not discussed or acknowledged.

The odds are quite good that a professional author may take a dislike to certain works. Sometimes the author has outgrown the work, or wasn't working up to par for whatever reason, or it's a work in which the author wasn't being honest with herself while writing it.

Don't worry BETTY, about being put off by the passage for we're not after a consensus. It's up to the individual whether one admires, or doesn't admire, this quote or the Gandhi quote or any other.

You're right about the rooms, at least for me it was the rooms imagery that struck me as being quite beautiful and full of possibilities of one room opening to another and another; but I also can see your point about "woman's nature" and the passiveness. Overall, what I get from the passage is a sense of those possibilities and I tune out the waiting for footsteps (which eventually Wharton did too).

What I see in the passage and Wharton's response to her own writing is the image of a woman changing and growing; Wharton found the possibility in rooms. What is right for a woman now may not be right later which may not be right even later.... That's so with all human beings and not just women.

Marvelle

Angelface! We posted at the same time (I'm afraid I compose sloooowly) and both of us addressed authors who might take a dislike to their work. I loved your information on Louisa May Alcott. She didn't like little girls and didn't like her book Little Women? Wow! It just goes to show that authors definitely have opinions about their own work. Thanks for the wonderful insight into Alcott (and insight into Wharton by example of Alcott).

Marvelle

Maryal!!!! Milton, of course how CAN I be so stupid, many thanks!! It's amazing how old you can get holding certain misconceptions and then POWEE you find out you were wrong, well it now makes perfect sense (actually it did before, it just took me a long time to see it) Thank you for that.

I LOVE the idea of those rooms and I love the way some of them are occupied by family who come and go as they want, love the suggestion there that it's not...just love it, Lou, what a poignant post, I loved that too, ALL of you have had such super insights, it's a pleasure to come in here and WHARTON, you will not believe I've read no Wharton but I haven't.

But I'll tell you about that last room, that last one where the soul waits, I know that room well.

What FOR I'm not sure, I expect you all remember the story of the man who spent his entire life looking for...whatever it was, only to find out he had it all along. That passage really resonates with me and since it's Wharton it appears I need to read her.

Fantastic discussion!

ginny

I read somewhere and I am trying to remember it fully which is slower nowadays; but it seems that the writer said there were three senses of self. To paraphrase as best as I remember is the public self, the inner self and the self as it really was. I think this may be a littler fuller then the ego trilogy.

I think that as I age, that inner self is opening up to the unconscious or "real" basic self and they are becoming more of the same.

Here are two examples of poetry that I wrote at different times of my life. Please do not judge their métier, just the emotions for those times in a woman's life from the fifties.

this first excerpt is from a poem I wrote at fifteen.

"Lying in a Cristal bubble, watching costume players stroll; never quite getting life's odd joke.

This last was written in my late thirties directly after a bitter divorce.

Love is a shining light to see by...

A haven to return to

Out of the storm.

The raging sea surrounds us all

Love is a raft we cling to

To some it is a passion

A chattel to watch over

To others it's a shining aura over them.

A security blanket to

Wrap in, keep warm by, stay safe by.

So why am I lost

In gray waves and shivering?

My poems today are just as personal and yet they sing with the joy of self, the liberation of age and experience. The acceptance physically and emotionally of the self as it is and where it is.

We change so much thru-out our lifetimes in ways that we could have never foreseen at any stop along the way!

Breathtaking poem, ANGELFACE. The imagery especially (which is one of my passions, great imagery). It is true that we grow into ourselves and change. My favorite poem by May Sarton is "Now I Become Myself" with the image of running through life, until as time passes

"I, the pursued, who madly ran,
Stand still, stand still, and stop the sun!"

GINNY, you haven't read any Edith Wharton?! Like Henry James she was a novelist of manners. Her biggest failing in my eyes is that she was a snob. However, I love her writing especially House of Mirth, Ethan Frome and, what is considered her most important work, The Age of Innocence. HofM is most strongly invested in the lives of women, Lily in particular. Hope you enjoy Edith!

Marvelle

In the biography I am reading the author noted that Wharton HATED everything she wrote the minute she wrote it! She was her harshest critic. She had to be persuaded to actually submit some of her most famous works! I really like what I have read so far, as her work is more like that of an English writer. She was popular amongst French readers too. I think tragedy was very popular with both English and French readers. NZ writers even today tend to deal with what I call "black" subjects. By black I am not referring to race. I mean portraying the more sombre side of life.

Henry James and Edith Wharton were friends and admired each other as writers.

Carolyn

Gee, what an interesting biography you have Carolyn. I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for mentioning it.

Wharton scholars have noted her refusal to republish that one story "Fulness..." and her unique dislike of it, more than her other works, and the reasons behind it which I mentioned previously. We'll have to agree to disagree about Wharton's assessment of that story. My response to the passage quoted from the short story is in-between the ones who liked it and the ones who disliked it.

_________________________

GINNY, so you're waiting? For someone or something or.... what? Here's the poem from May Sarton which was my own personal dilemma for years and which Angelface's lovely poem reminded me of:

Now I Become Myself

This is a well known poem which depicts a woman's desire and search for identity which finally comes with Time.

Marvelle

I love that Poem and May Sarton who I had not heard of before that I know of. I cliped the site into my favorites.

That is so true Marvelle. Would that young women or even some older women would have the courage to be themselves! My daughter Nicky has always had that courage from a young age and has more friends than she can cope with. She has quite old fashioned ideas in some areas and does not give a hoot about fashion etc. She is a reader like us and at the moment is studying for her Librarians Diploma. At the moment she is doing her own study on the American Civil Rights Movement. As she gets older she becomes more like her radical mum! That poem is very meaningful to me. I have observed that passionate readers are also great thinkers.

I am looking forward to our next Tuesday!

Carolyn

Angelface, I'm glad then I posted the poem. I was at first hesitant to add another work into the mix but it is such a favorite of mine. Carolyn, you "radical mum" you. I think that's a wonderful, admirable way to be.

Time for sleep now. Night all.

Marvelle

I've never been afraid to be myself. I am not the words you see typed on a monitor screen, nor are you, or is anyone else.

Do you think the Edith Wharton quote above could not be applied to a man?

I wonder what the lot of women would have been like if God had not been anthropomorphized into the form of a man?

Mal

Thank you for that poem, Marvelle, I think we might need to look at IT again, talking as we are now about "being yourself," one of the little subtle things in All is Vanity which blew me away was the author's having one of the characters who became somebody else in email. Somebody had mentioned to Christina Schwarz that in email often people deliberately take on another personna, that is, they write to amuse, they make their stories more charming than normal, in fact, they "write." I found that interesting.

In a medium like this, you could actually be anybody. You could SAY you were anything? If you were so inclined you could BE anybody with any background at all, who is going to check? Who COULD check? I might NOT be a grape farmer but instead live in the city in an apartment in Miami?

You can create any person at all.

Heck, I could "create" self as a man.

So in essence it's interesting WHO of our many personalities and experiences we choose to present here and how, I think, we're our own voices here, it's a strange and interesting medium.

ginny

Ginny, this medium is one-dimensional. People are not one-dimensional. We cannot see the other dimensions with a computer . . . yet. We see only what we and others choose to present. This is why I say we are not what we see typed on a monitor screen.

In the Books and Lit forums I believe we try to present the best part of what in us is intellectual because the quality of the people who participate here is appears to be high.

To be an apartment owner in Miami and write as if you are a grape grower in South Carolina, you need some capabiity as an actor so you won't slip out of the rôle, and some talent as a writer. If I'm taking on the rôle of an intellectual I'm not going to tell you I'm dressed in ratty old clothes; the sink is full of dishes, my computer table is loaded with junk, my credit card is maxed out, and my left knee hurts like hell. Nor am I going to tell you I'm much more timid and sensitive than I pretend or come across, or a whole lot tougher, as the case may be.

Because there are extraordinary sources available to us through libraries and well-researched papers on the web, we can appear to be much more knowledgeable than we actually are. I've told people numerous times that I'm only as smart as the reference books I have right beside me and what's in my computer, and it's true.

Mal

GINNY, I've always liked that poem but don't know that it'd make a good study. I first heard it when I was in my 40s and it touched me then. Lots of literature is about a quest for identity and even Wharton's story is partly that. Learning who you are and growing into yourself isn't a static process because it continues all our life in one way or another.

Marvelle

about people here than we do in reality.One "owns more" when we can be to some degree anonymous, but reference books wont teach you how to string sentences with a flair and cohesion. Even from aus, we tend to meet other senior netters, speak to stand out americans by phone etc.

whats more in so many areas what we have said is there to haunt us, I often do a search on someones previous posts if I am interested in them.

Re the wharton quote above, seems like romanticism to me, quite frankly if we don't know who we are yet, best find out fairly soon. watched Germaine Greer interviewed on enough rope tonight, and as she says, its kinda sad that we finally learn to be happy with ourselves and our world as we near the end of out time here.

Anneo

Two great poems in one reading! My thanks to Angelface and Marvelle.

Malryn, your Post #296 is so true, and perfectly expressed! I am often conscious of appearing "more knowledgeable than we are" because I've just had the fun of looking up information on the subject.

There have been one or two posters on SN that I felt uneasy about, and I think your comment about 'taking on a role' explains my doubts. Something simply didn't ring true, and I found myself taking their stories with a small grain of salt. Odd, isn't it? ...Babi

Ha Mal - you did not fool me!

I guess we can present ourselves differently but what you read is what you get with me. I have always been open and frank in the discussions here. I don't think I have hidden anything about myself that I can think of.

Firstly I never went to college and I am basically self educated. I had some very responsible and varied jobs and did on the job training for them. I married young like many of us did in the sixties and had four children - 2 were adopted as older children. They were the children of a work colleague who died of cancer and left 7yr old twins.

I suffer from GAD and fibromyalgia, I live in an aging little house, I have a modest income. I love reading. I don't do exciting socialising I get too tired for that. I love animals , trees and all aspects of nature. My eldest daughter and myself are bosom buddies and I have a very good relationship with the others. Also I hardly ever wear makeup and I don't care a lot about fashion. I don't set a lot of store on personal possessions but I can admire others nice things. I love looking through my sons beautiful homes but don't yearn for the same for myself. People tell me I 'scrub up ok' when I do bother for special occasions. Most of my good clothes are hand me downs from my mums extensive wardrobe. She dresses very tastefully and fashionably! When she thinks I look too disreputable she looks out a few outfits for me and hands them over! I am an idealist and have very radical political views!However in contrast I have strong moral values. I believe in God. Thats me! Oh and I love the tiny islands I live in and the small population.

Carolyn

Hey Babi, me too! I take some people with a virtual grain of salt but that's because of the nature of the virtual beast. For myself, I prefer not to reveal much personal information in a public forum about Books. Someone else might choose otherwise. This website, however, is read worldwide and not by SN members alone. Fishbowl disclosure vs privacy -- there's not much inbetween choice with the web.

Babi, I love the fun of research too. You have to start with some good research skills and some knowledge of the subject, but it's the search and learning from it that excites me. I don't ever want to stop learning.

I like what you said GINNY: "...it's interesting WHO of our many personalities and experiences we choose to present here and how...[I could even be a man].... we're our own voices here, it's a strange and interesting medium." It is strange and interesting but I couldn't stretch credibility into seeing you as a man ... mostly because of how you express yourself and your viewpoints. Strange and interesting idea, but then again, who knows.....?

Marvelle

I would hate to think in a forum such as this anyone would pose as the opposite sex! What jollies would they get from it? I don't have any fear of posting in SN message boards but would be much more discreet on chat if I participated a(which I seldom do). I notice that the people who spend most time in the chat room don't often post on the message boards. I think books is a pretty safe forum. I have not yet had any problems associated with this website although I do know someone who did get hate mail from the political discussions. So far I have not had that problem. I don't have anything to hide so I don't see any problem with being honest in here. I think SN is one of the safer sites on the web.

Carolyn

I don't have anything to hide so I don't see any problem with being honest in here. I think SN is one of the safer sites on the web. I do also, Thanks.

Fool you about what, CAROLYN? You know I'm a caterer in Indianapolis and live on Springwood Trail just off Kessler Boulevard. My business, called "The Catering Company", is located on 38th Street, an easy drive from my house. On the off season (which isn't in April and May!)I've been known to take courses in Yiddish and Automobile Mechanics at Butler University. I don't have much time for the hitting the books lately because my race car driver husband just bought a souped up Daimler, and we're at the Speedway more often than we're not.

GINNY, on the other hand, is the artistic one. She's a choreographer for La Dolce Vita on Collins Avenue in Miami Beach. She's been doing that kind of work for years, ever since she retired from the stage where her biggest hit was "Chicago" in 1975, when she worked with Bob Fosse. An avid reader, GINNY has been known to forget to leave her book in her dressing room when her cue came to go onstage.

BaBi works at Balducci's in New York City. She takes lunch breaks at a little English restaurant named Tea and Sympathy when she feels inundated by prosciutto and cheese. That's where she gets the bulk of her reading done.

MARVELLE is a mystery, her privacy is so well-protected, but it's rumored that she's the owner of an art gallery in Santa Fe.

GINGER'S a he, not a she, and owns a cattle ranch just outside Houston, the last in a long line of ranchers. GINGER hobnobs with ANNEO, who lives on a sheep ranch in the Outback and gets to town every couple of years or so.

It's you, CAROLYN, who have everyone fooled. I know from a reliable source that you're a Canadian who teaches New Zealand and Australian Studies at the University of Toronto. Your last book was titled "15 Ways to Make a Good Cuppa in Auckland," and you've run for political office more than once. You can't fool me!

Any way you look at it, I'm still Old Mal

I am laughing so hard my belly hurts, Thanks.

Mal - Can't fool an old dog like you!

Carolyn

God, mal you sure had me fooled as well, such an exciting bunch of people, and I thought you were ordinary every day laid back, rural, dudes, just like me.

Seriously though am off in the morning on one of my rare city visits, and George is trembling at what I may spend. (with good reason)

If you are looking up down under books, there is a tiny tome called "harp in the south" written in 1948 by kiwi expatriate Ruth Park which I consider excellent, and some consider boring.

Whilst I am bragging, there is the great "Kings in Grass Castles", by Mary Durack a non fiction account of her familys journey and settlement of the Cooper Basin, the last piece of untouched water in the world, and the only place where two rivers make a creek. Mary Durack is Georges cousin, and they were the first Europeans to settle this country.(south western Queensland)

Sorry, I shall depart and leave you in peace now.

Anneo

I have been reading since I was three and writing poems and essays and collecting verse since I first learned to write. I buy reference books like others buy chocolate! In fact my first response to something I don't know is to buy a book about it. When I was eight, one of the classroom tests said my vocabulary was on a college level which thrilled my mother, but was due basically to my being a bookworm. Like most readers, I knew what the words meant, but often couldn't spell them or pronounce them!

The point of all this is that I enhance my stories or if you will, "I write them." When I am talking about my cats, I often assign human attributes to what is happening to make it more humorous to the reader. I can not say in truth that this slant on the story was exactly the same as the cats had because we are different species.

Also when I post in these discussions I can use my bigger words if you will because among my own group, they will start to roll their eyes if I start on a subject from the web that has nothing to do with their offline lives and they are simply not interested. It is the same with my photography. I have learned to make separate trips. One alone with my camera and one with my friends.

The point beyond that is that I write to make everyday happenings more interesting, but I have never lied. Let me give you an example.

I went down the hall to the bathroom last night and stepped on a grape stem.

or

As I was going down the hall last night, I stepped on something that seemed to grab at my foot. In sudden panic, I jumped back and hurriedly turned on the light, expecting some awful bug had gotten in the house. I was reassured to find it was only a grape stem, but then had to wonder why it wasn't in the garbage with the others. Beau! I said with a snort!

Both sentences are true.

I for one much prefer the second story, but who is Beau?

Beau is a seven month old Abyssinian cat that I rescued and nursed thru an illness. He was seven weeks old, had kennel cough and weighed 13 ounces. Unfortunately now he thinks he's a Mafia Don!

MARYAL: I’m not intoxicated; I just staggered by and read your #273. I began this by means of a WW-II term, “dead reckoning”. WOW! By the time I finished your #305, I felt I had just acquired a perfectly clear day, a gyro compass second to none and an ecyclopedic mind.

So you’re the wife (or relative) of the GREAT Al Unser? [You did not say that, Maryal; I did]. LOL – Now, back to the drawing board and your #273: (now that I know where you are and the expanse of your abilities), People in America (The US) have largely forgotten the real roots of this Country of Milk and Honey originally began by having freedom of religion. We liberated our women; I remember when women could not vote.

I believe it is ridiculous that women cannot share the complete freedom, earn equal wage across the board (but glad it's you who gives birth to babies). Respect for women can be accomplished and still keep within biblical teachings of the Apostle Paul [First Cor. 11 – 3]. From a domestic standpoint, I speak from 71 years of togetherness with the same woman and 58 years of having to sleep with that same woman. We have raised eight single-birth, well-educated children and each of them have ears almost identical to my own. Joanna has served 100% as wife and mother; I have served 100% husband and father. None of our children left home early. Their only way out of the Labor Camp was to go to school.

Let us look at our future women. Local stats reveal a pronounced reduction in teen pregnancies....Simultaneously, there is an increase in AIDS among our younger female population. Do we need to take a second look at what our children are doing? Aren’t we leading our youth deeper into trouble? Or, do we sit back and let our children take the blame for leading us? I am extremely proud of our feminine population and believe it deserves our greatest care.

Americans, of which we are among the proudest, are despised by world populous because of our diverse freedom – Men have led the way and love to blame the women for their evil leadership.

We began a writing career in 1983. In making unbelievable progress, we discovered first, the electronic typewriter was a must. Then, the word processor entered the picture and practice. Well, I mastered that advancement rather easily. By the time we was ready to fly that machine, someone invented the computer…along with its vastness of improvements. Although we continue the course, we are not yet airborne. We hope to discover a younger partner in time to salvage our dreams – Now, I say ‘we’ when Joanna can barely type her name and hardly has a physical science thought in her head. Joanna is as much a part of me as I am and each religiously believes we are one in the same person.

Thanks for leaving your key in the mailbox and letting me in. Click on paulajo at the beginning of this post to see our profile. Paulajo.

Has anyone here read Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd, also the author of Secret Life of Bees? I'm most anxious to hear what you have to say if you've read it.

I believe it was Betty that mentioned Carolyn Heilbrun's Writing A Woman's Life.... Kidd quotes here in this book.... when titles keep cropping up that's always a sign to me... Thanks, Betty.

Lou

Welcome Paulajo, we are very glad to see you here, thank you for your comments, and thank all of you, Ann, Lorrie, and Lou2, for those recommendations, I am trying to think of some way we can get up a list of all the books recommended here for future reference.

Malryn, how creative, love it, the question of online identity is fascinating to me, Angleface, because irrespective of "profession," identity is something very.....to me it almost changes daily, it's hard to explain it, I'm glad we have this very thoughtful discussion to look at these issues.

OK first up here is the Ballot so far, what is not here that is in the heading and will YOU add a sentence or so of description to the missing books which were nominated?

What's missing?

Here's the List of Nominated Books With their Descriptive Passages: What's not here that is in the chart above? What would you want to add to the descriptions?

Yellow Raft in Blue Water: by Michael Dorris. This is a book about three generations of Native American women, each discussing the same events from her own point of view. It not only gives a clear portrait of each woman, but shows how important generation and culture are in our understanding of life.

The Awakening: by Kate Chopin

In a society with a stereotypical view of women, one woman struggles to be true to her own identity.

Writing a Woman's Life:

"A magical little book on all the ways we write our lives, including unconsciously, this title is popular in women's studies courses and could be read on its own or paired with an autobiography or biography. (P.S. The author has written 10 literate mysteries under a pen name.) Bushwomen, by Laura Flanders (Verso, March). A radio commentator takes a hard look at women in the Bush administration -- Norton, Chao, Rice, Cheney and Hughes -- and argues that they mask a highly anti-female policy."

America's Women, by Gail Collins (Morrow, Oct.). By the editorial page editor of the New York Times, a history of American womanhood from the time of the pilgrims."

Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe. - fictional life of a woman written by a man. Story set in the 1600's

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross - novel based on the life of a woman who disguised as a man becaame the only woman to become a pope in the Catholic Church. Set in the 9th century.

Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas by Morgan Llywelyn - A novel based on the real life of an Irish chieftain (Grace O Malley)who struggled against the English ruler Queen Elizabeth the First.

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Maggie Smith. Life of an Irish immigrant family in Brooklyn before the First World War seen through the eyes of a daughter.

The Red Tent by Anita Diamant Fictionalized life of Dinah, the daughter of Jacob.

Revolution From Within
Moving Beyond Words by Gloria Steinem: Gloria Steinem wrote about the woman's voice being inconsequential and unheeded in her books and much of what she writes, she experienced as in the "fabled" bunny attempt.

Metropolitan Life
Social Studies by Fran Lebowitz:

Fran Lebowitz was a political and mainstream commentator on American life and Virginia Woolf uses fiction for her metaphors.

The Color of Water:A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride (mistyped above). A loving memoir by a man who gives much of the credit for his success in life to his mother.

Oroonoko:The Royal Slave by Aphra Behn. - Aphra Behn (1640-1689) was the first professional woman writer in English literature. It is avaiable on line.

Middlemarch: A portrait of provincial Victorian life. A contrast between a woman passionate to use her gifts and talents in the world of the 1830's, and a pretty, spoiled woman who sees a man "whom it would be delightful to enslave". Virginia Woolf described Middlemarch as "..one of the few English novels written for grown-up people". {It is, however, 793 pgs in paperback form. Fair warning.}

Nominations available online: Herland by Gilman Perkins, Little Women by Alcott, and Sappho (different translations can substitute for Bayard as previously mentioned)

Madam Secretary,

"...in an outspoken memoir, the highest-ranking woman in American history shares her remarkable story and provides an insider's view of world affairs during a period of unprecedented turbulence."

Today is Topic Tuesday and in a second I will have up today's selections, how is being a woman presented in THIS piece of literature? The object is to look at this voice and see how women are presented or portrayed in literature, what do you think? Coming right up!!

Topic Tuesday Selection: September 16, 2003:

Topic Tuesday, Passage #3:

Here are three excerpts from a woman writer which show a particular point of view or philosophy. How do these excerpts differ from the other two we have looked at? Or how are they similar? How is this woman presented in literature?

1. And it struck me then that the most difficult thing had been the decision to act, the rest had been merely tenacity-and the fears were paper tigers. One really could do anything one had decided to do whether it were changing a job, moving on to a new place, divorcing a husband or whatever, one really could act to change and control one’s life; and the procedure, the process, was its own reward.

2. Above all that horrible, false, debilitating attractiveness that women hide behind. I pulled my hat down over my ears so that they stuck out beneath it. “ I must remember this when I get back. I must not fall into that trap again.” I must let people see me as I am. Like this? Yes, why not like this. But then I realized that the rules pertaining to one set of circumstances do not necessarily pertain to another. Back there, this would just be another disguise…Why did people circle one another, consumed with either fear or envy, when all that they were fearing or envying was illusion.? Why did they build psychological fortresses and barriers around themselves that would take a PhD in safe-cracking to get through, which even thy could not penetrate from the inside?

3. I had understood freedom and security. The need to rattle the foundations of habit. That to be free one needs constant and unrelenting vigilance over one’s weaknesses. A vigilance which requires a moral energy most of us are incapable of manufacturing. We relax back into the moulds of habit. They are secure, they bind us and keep us contained at the expense of freedom. To break the moulds, to be heedless of the seductions of security is an impossible struggle, but one of the few that count. To be free is to learn, to test yourself constantly, to gamble.

the creative writer is the author of #305.

Welcome, Paulajo.

There is not a word of truth in my Post #305 except that MARVELLE's privacy is well-protected. There is a Springwood Trail in Indianapolis (I lived there in the '60's), and the La Dolce Vita Club is on Collins Avenue in Miami Beach. The so-called Indianapolis Speedway is in Speedway, Indiana.

Mal

TOPIC TUESDAY #3: There is nothing about the tone of this that is familiar to me. I suspect I haven't read anything by this writer. Strong on self-examination and analysis of how she got to be who she was. I wouldn't care to read a whole book of this, tho'. ...Babi

1. This woman has had an important self-realization. However, circumstances often prevent women from doing "anything they decide to do", and the "procedure, the process" are sometimes so painful that there can be no rewards at all.

2. I don't see attractiveness as debilitating. If it makes a woman feel good to look good, I see no reason why she should make herself unattractive to prove her point of independence. I think self-protection is normal for both women and men. If the psychological fortress and barriers are part of that self-protection I find nothing wrong with them.

3. There's risk-taking in almost anything, even driving to the supermarket, but we aren't aware of it usually. Sometimes it takes courage to quit a job that makes you miserable and go out to find another, not really knowing whether the new one will make you more content or even just more comfortable.

Thanks to a small inheritance, when I was 52 years old I left the security and everything else I knew and moved alone to a state I'd never even visited before, where I bought a piece of land and a trailer 1000 miles away from family and friends. That was breaking from the "moulds of habit" bigtime. The one thing I learned was that I am a whole lot stronger than I had ever given myself credit for in the past.

Mal

Ahhhhh. The similar concerns in the Wharton quote, the All is Vanity dreams, Marjorie Morningstar, (and?) A Christmas Carol(?). It makes me want to stumble into a possibly ill-guided but genuine (hopeful?) suggestion to a person to visit any of the countries where our average worst day would look like living in a castle to those who have so little hope. In case that sounds insulting, I'll admit that I go there often, in my mind.

When I get wound up in my interrupted goals, or obsess over the precarious life of my son (with less than even odds, I would guess) or wonder how much death of my physical body my mind can tolerate, I have to leave here, in imagination, to visit women who think I have it made. They'd be thrilled with the Meals on Wheels lunch I just ate, marvel at the fancy computer I'm typing on as I watch a West Wing rerun in the background. I don't have to contend with the 92 degree Texas heat outside in this air-conditioned apartment. Of all the luxuries I have, the best, I've decided, is that I'm free to continue learning and have unlimited access to incredible sources of information throughout the internet. My cup runneth over.

There are many things that keep me from living fully, I guess. Somewhere near the top of the list is the maddening gap between what I know and what my frustrated self will absorb and live. What I described above is what I know. Putting it into practice consistently?? Depends on how much sleep I've had and other crazy determinants of mood, attitude, etc. Energy level affects everything and I rarely have enough energy.

Sometimes I'm lucky and I have whole days in a row when everything is clear and easy....in other words, a mission to call my mother just to let her know she's loved (her life isn't so easy right now, either), especially when I'm not necessarily in the mood to call her, feels like INSIGHT, wisdom even. What could possibly be more important!! Being a loving daughter to an elderly mother....and at the same time, trusting that I'm modeling behavior I'd like my son to understand....fills me with the deepest kind of satisfaction and puts all regrets and other questions of priority in a completely different light. On good days. Laughing at and with myself a lot, lately, I've started asking, "How many times do I have to learn this?"

==========================================================

Ginny, remember my middle name? "context"? I'm struggling to stay quiet about my frustration with part of Tuesday's format. It's fun to wonder who wrote a passage and when, but my bias is that we need all the supporting information we can get as a foundation......that looking at how the author wrote about women is difficult enough, even WITH all the identifying information. Even if we could magically read the whole book, read about the author's other works, read about how culture incorporated women at that time......even then, we would have our work cut out for us.

Would it be possible to give more information in a day or two, say, Thursday or Friday? So, for a day or two, we could be guessing the author and book. Then, after knowing them for sure, the focus on the passage could intensify.

AAAAAggghhhh. I've been redoing this sentence until I'm ready to scream. I'm determined to get this thought into a simple sentence. Knowing the author and title may or may not give us information on how the author writes about women. "Writing about women" goes beyond checking to see if the material can be matched with an era, obviously. For example, we could pick 10 books published within a 5 year span by 10 different authors, or by just 2 authors, or by the same author for all 10 books. Within each grouping (10 groups, 2 groups, or just 1 group), we'd be holding one variable constant (time period) and be able to compare and contrast treatment of women within each group.

A 2nd suggestion.....would it be possible to have a much longer passage to read, then narrow down the focus to a particular paragraph or two? I can see the pluses and minuses of this change. Also, it might help with one passage, but make no difference with another.

Both of my suggestions come from a willingness to learn. I think I'm in that stage of knowing just enough to be dangerous. Even those times I'm confident that I think I know what the author has done, I find it difficult to communicate it easily to others. That happened in All is Vanity....well, that and the fact that the author was sitting in the room. (chuckle, chuckle)

I'm fine with whatever changes are made to the Tuesday passages and fine with no change. I read through the new passage above just once before beginning this message......feeling instantly that it's going to be a struggle to learn much about how women are treated in literature by reading this particular passage. (first impression, anyway) It is FULL of references to things we can't identify. In working together to look at how authors write about women, we need all the tools we can get, all the information available, all the context possible. We need to fill in the gaps. I'll read it again and do my best.

==============================================

Did anybody catch the listing of the television movie, this week, "The Devil is a Sissy." My chuckle came out sounding like a cough. So, even the devil can be ridiculed by being called a girl. Only once in my life was I quick enough for an instant comeback.....a nephew and his friend, both 7 years old, many adults within 25 ft., a not too gentle shoulder shove from his friend and "Sissy!" said with no smile in his voice at all. The boy's mother heard and called out his name just as my brain kicked in and I said to my nephew (my voice full of joy), "Tell him thank you!!" Dead quiet in the room. I said, sweetly, "He said you were just like a girl, so tell him thank you VERY much!" The adult women in the room got it and cheered appropriately. The men looked puzzled.

Betty

Interesting pieces. I understand a striving to attain goals but sometimes the goals we set are not practical in that to reach them we may have to sacrifice things which in the long term may cause us pain in the future. I wanted to study law when I was a young mother and I began the preliminaries. I soon realised that my children would suffer because of the amount of study I would have to do. I had one child who had a health problem. Although I never did get to satisfy this dream I did manage to work in a position which often took me into the courts and I did have authority to negotiate. One time the Crown Prosecutor did not turn up and the Judge allowed me to present the case. (I had prepared the brief in any case). It was second best but I have never sat back and regretted the decision I made. It is an admirable thing to attain ones dreams but if we can't I see no point in crying over spilt milk. Its not my way! I feel some authors do spend a lot of time portraying women as being unfulfilled.

I shall write more later.

Carolyn

It took me a long time to catch up to the posts alone, and it will be a while longer before I can begin to reply to the comments.

I won't try to guess who the author of today's writing is, though the spelling of "moulds" is something of a give-away.

The first paragraph reads as though the author had just then come to the realization that every goal is within reach, once the decision to take action has been made, which is, admittedly, the first and most difficult step.

But that realization is hardly an epiphany IMHO, and I wonder whether the author was insecure, diffident or extremely sheltered. I'll reread the paragraphs now.

Why is the (clearly introspective) author of our Tuesday reading so critical of the "horrible, false, debilitating attractiveness" that women "hide behind" as a "disguise" ? Without knowing what led the author to this view, it is obviously impossible to speculate on her reasoning, and our own opinions on the subject won't help us.

Paragraph 3 presents a rather astonishing leap in connecting freedom and security as tools to keep track of one's weaknesses.

I am strongly reminded of the short stories, particularly The Yellow Wallpaper , by Charlotte Perkins Gilman whose work I warmly recommend for your attention (see the above list).

Ah, Betty, I see you are a fellow Texan. I can relate to your query of 'How many times do I have to learn this." Ah, my friend, we have learned, but the flesh is indeed weak. Even knowing better, we can't always summon the energy and will we need, as you so truly testify. Hey, my knees won't bend as they used to, and I need an amplified phone. I'll give me a break, and you give you a break. Meanwhile, we can still enjoy the mental exercise here.

You make some good points re. the discussions. After the initial analysis of the Tuesday Topic, it would give additional insights to the subject if we knew the author. ..Babi

"False debilitating attractiveness" I have to say that the women in my family who present themselves always immaculate, not a hair out of place, perfectly groomed even when first arising in the morning are the ones who deep down have low self esteem. Of course everyone likes to look their best when at work or on a special occasion, I would not call that hiding behind a facade, but how many of you know people that no matter what time of day it is that you call they are made up as if they were going on a special date? I know that when I was very young I felt the need to always be perfectly made up because I did not like the real me. I think that to feel like this is a form of slavery. Its refreshing to me to be able to go shopping without worrying about makeup maybe just a dash of lipstick. I do think women feel pressure about keeping up an appearance. Most men don't!

My using makeup, fixing my hair and the way I dress have nothing to do with my opinion of myself. If my image in a mirror looks good to me, I feel better than if it doesn't. I feel better when my house is relatively neat and clean, too.

TRAUDE, the word "mould" didn't suggest a nationality to me. It might be my New England education, but from the time I was very small I believed moulds were forms used in sculpture or making Jell-o and molds were fungi that grew on lemons I forgot were in the refrigerator.

Mal

BETTY:

Parts of your post made me very sad. I, too, sometimes think about "interrupted goals, obsess over the precarious life of my son (with less than even odds, I would guess) or wonder how much death of my physical body my mind can tolerate." I'm much older than you, though. What hurts me is that a woman your age must tolerate what you do.

My poor mother, who died in 1940 in a two room cold water tenement, heated by a small kerosene stove she also used for cooking, would think I'm very rich, indeed.

And so I am.

Mal

Wealth is relative. To me to pay my bills on time, have food in the cupboard, a roof over my head, easy access to a good library and to have people nearby who love me is wealth indeed! Of course if I had to give up my internet access I think I should feel very poor indeed! I think this would be great deprivation to me now.

Carolyn

It's nice to have money in the bank, though. Ignoring how good that might feel, I'm going to splurge all of an under $1000.00 amount of money, sent to me each spring for orthotic expenses, on a trip to Richmond next May so my daughter and I can attend my first ever SeniorNet Bash, the International Virginia Tea Party. I'm saving out $15.00 so there'll be $5.00 apiece inheritance for each of my kids. Now if this isn't breaking the "mould of habit" I don't know what is.

Mal

I separated my "work look" and my "at home" appearances. Some days when I got home, my clothes would literally choke me and I would sometimes gag slightly as I tore them off and got into my robe. All these feelings were physically real to me even if I knew they originated from my mind and not set reality!

Working and having to deal with the public and increasingly young and clueless kids was really dong a number on my health; and retirement was a blessing. I went thru the first year almost entirely with my new computer and housecoats while my house slowly fell into dust and disarray.

Now this third year of retirement, I am slowly becoming less a hermit and more willing to spend time with other humans. To this end, I find myself reapplying make up again and find its not defining me as much as it is a way of showing care about myself. My self esteem has taken some hard blows in my life, but real acceptance didn't take place until after retirement and my ability to be totally what, where and how I wished to be!

I'm on a pension and am in no way rich, but among my cats and with my friends, and having my own possessions around me makes me feel like a Queen!

I have a very good friend who always used to have her makeup on when I saw her. Her habit is to shower, dress and put makeup on the first thing every morning. She had to sometimes had to forgo this while she was her father's caregiver. However, she got it on as soon as she could. When we visited them at their townhouse in Arizonia I finally saw her with out makeup. I knew then that I was family to her!

Now that I am finished my BC treatments, she has encouraged me to wear makeup. She is right in suggesting this, because I do look better with a little blush on my cheeks. Knowing I look better helps my attitude.

When I tried being a business lady I was told to dress for work, even when I was working at home. It seems that how you are dressed is reflected in your phone manner!

Ok, I've reread the passage and think my first impression was wrong....I don't think more information is needed to comment on how the female voice is presented.

(My prior post wasn't about this new passage....I didn't realize some might think it was. It was about waiting and second-guessing and regretting, etc., in response to comments made about All is Vanity, Wharton's quote and other things.)

The female voice in the passage is strong. If it's from All is Vanity, I'll have to eat a hat, I suppose. (As I wanted those 2 characters to be more complex.) It's Virginia Woolf strong. Doesn't matter that there is wandering or ruminating or owning up to not being very consistent. That just adds realistic complexity.

The decision to make a change is the turning point. That's the statement in the first section and is rock solid, psychologically.

In the 2nd section, she promises herself that she will let people see her as she really is, the real person without the (makeup) "disguise" (her word). She realizes that the "false" beauty is what people envy....the illusion they envy. She also recognizes that people hide behind psychological barriers. (Boy, do we.)

The 3rd section features the dangers of habit, how easily we sink back into them, even after struggling to leave them. The last sentence is wisdom itself...."To be free is to learn to test yourself constantly, to gamble." This reminds me of the axiom....the one thing I can count on to be consistent is change.

I can't wait to hear what book this is. The character is away from home base, thinking of how things are back in the real world, how people interact back there, how they jeopardize their own growth. Her yearning to change and grow and keep on challenging herself is very moving.

Betty

"...the most difficult thing had been the decision to act"

This did resonate with me, since I often have difficulty making a decision. Once I decide among alternatives, I can move forward, but making that decision drives me crazy.

"To break the moulds, to be heedless of the seductions of security is an impossible struggle, but one of the few that count. To be free is to learn, to test yourself constantly, to gamble."

This also is sooo true. I always have to force myself to relinquish the familiar and secure in favor of the new and challenging. It reminded me of the "Ladies of Covington," when, despite their handicaps, they conquer their fears and set off on their adventure to an unknown place.

BETTY, no matter who this author is, I stand by the impressions I expressed in my earlier messages : that her natural talents were suppressed (stifled - like Edith in ALL IN THE FAMILY), to say the very least, REpressed perhaps? She was most certainly sheltered.

I would like to align myself with Betty's overall analytical approach and -- as gratifyig as personal identification in similar circumstances might be, I think THIS exercise is to analyze the passage rather than search for and report on our own experiences and reactions. If I misunderstood the task, please correct me, GINNY.

MAL, it is not my nature to be argumentative, but please let me say that the English word I learned was "mold"= the American spelling, whereas "mould" is clearly the British spelling. There are other telling examples which I won't mention because we are not here for linguistic exercises or linguistic sparring.

We will be told, I hope, who the author of this passage is before next Tuesday - I really don't have time for guessing games.

TRAUDE, when I was in grammar school in Massachusetts I was taught to use both "mould" and "mold". We also spelled "realize" with an S not a Z. In fact, many of the words we learned were taught to us with the British spelling. That is why the word "mould" alone did not make me think of a nationality of the author. My comment was not in the form of an argument; it was rather just a musing.

Is it possible that this writer was poor Sylvia Plath?

Mal

I think the writer could be British.

Yes it is easy to go back into old patterns of behaviour but that is not restricted to the female sex its a universal weakness!

Tomorrow I have a little bit to tell you about W Somerset Maughn.

Carolyn

You ladies are giving me such wonderful instruction on analyzing literature!! Keep up the good work and one day I'll feel I know enough to give it a try!

Great selections!!!

Lou

Ok just coming in briefly to remind everybody that we do have a slate of books nominated and we're about to take a vote. I don't think we have a short blurb for each book nominated so will ask you to check this list against the one above, and to supply if you will a blurb for any missing title?

Here is the list:

Here's the List of Nominated Books With their Descriptive Passages: What's not here that is in the chart above? What would you want to add to the descriptions?

Yellow Raft in Blue Water: by Michael Dorris. This is a book about three generations of Native American women, each discussing the same events from her own point of view. It not only gives a clear portrait of each woman, but shows how important generation and culture are in our understanding of life.

The Awakening: by Kate Chopin

In a society with a stereotypical view of women, one woman struggles to be true to her own identity.

Writing a Woman's Life:

"A magical little book on all the ways we write our lives, including unconsciously, this title is popular in women's studies courses and could be read on its own or paired with an autobiography or biography. (P.S. The author has written 10 literate mysteries under a pen name.) Bushwomen, by Laura Flanders (Verso, March). A radio commentator takes a hard look at women in the Bush administration -- Norton, Chao, Rice, Cheney and Hughes -- and argues that they mask a highly anti-female policy."

America's Women, by Gail Collins (Morrow, Oct.). By the editorial page editor of the New York Times, a history of American womanhood from the time of the pilgrims."

Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe. - fictional life of a woman written by a man. Story set in the 1600's

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross - novel based on the life of a woman who disguised as a man becaame the only woman to become a pope in the Catholic Church. Set in the 9th century.

Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas by Morgan Llywelyn - A novel based on the real life of an Irish chieftain (Grace O Malley)who struggled against the English ruler Queen Elizabeth the First.

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Maggie Smith. Life of an Irish immigrant family in Brooklyn before the First World War seen through the eyes of a daughter.

The Red Tent by Anita Diamant Fictionalized life of Dinah, the daughter of Jacob.

Revolution From Within
Moving Beyond Words by Gloria Steinem: Gloria Steinem wrote about the woman's voice being inconsequential and unheeded in her books and much of what she writes, she experienced as in the "fabled" bunny attempt.

Metropolitan Life
Social Studies by Fran Lebowitz:

Fran Lebowitz was a political and mainstream commentator on American life and Virginia Woolf uses fiction for her metaphors.

The Color of Water:A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride (mistyped above). A loving memoir by a man who gives much of the credit for his success in life to his mother.

Oroonoko:The Royal Slave by Aphra Behn. - Aphra Behn (1640-1689) was the first professional woman writer in English literature. It is avaiable on line.

Middlemarch: A portrait of provincial Victorian life. A contrast between a woman passionate to use her gifts and talents in the world of the 1830's, and a pretty, spoiled woman who sees a man "whom it would be delightful to enslave". Virginia Woolf described Middlemarch as "..one of the few English novels written for grown-up people". {It is, however, 793 pgs in paperback form. Fair warning.}

Nominations available online: Herland by Gilman Perkins, Little Women by Alcott, and Sappho (different translations can substitute for Bayard as previously mentioned)

Madam Secretary,

"...in an outspoken memoir, the highest-ranking woman in American history shares her remarkable story and provides an insider's view of world affairs during a period of unprecedented turbulence."

OK now if I understand the request (thank you Lou and everybody, Lou all you have to do is give your own opinion, no amount of special knowledge is needed, that's the point here, how these women are portrayed, in your opinion, in literature).

Hang on there Lou and Malryn in NC!!

If I understand the requests for Topic Tuesdays, then sure we can have a longer passage, I apologize for the three short passages out of context, but unfortunately the context which follows each of them veered off into the author's specific adventures in crossing the entire Australian continent by herself on camel, and were, in fact, so specific I thought they might influence the reader, so had to leave them out, I apologize for that. The necessity of finding an Australian author on my shelves and rereading the book in its entirety in order to find something for this passage unfortunately did not lend itself to a more careful choice.

In addition if I understand it correctly, I do like the request to name the author and time period and title on Thursday or Friday, as that gives us a day or two to actually spend time looking at what the author said and how the woman in that was portrayed, without labelling it to a period, a country, or a particular label, I like that, it can stand alone.

The author is Robyn Davidson, an Australian by birth, the title of the book is Tracks, the story of her solo journey across 1,700 miles of the Australian continent on camelback, written in 1995. The editorial blurb said she worked for National Geographic and was writing another book.

When I read the excerpt I am struck by her youth: it's obvious the speaker is a young woman, and having succeeded in that mammoth trek, she naturally feels nothing is beyond her grasp. However we know that age has a way of putting the lie to that, the question IS, is her attitude one she will continue to be able to apply? Or one we can find useful to every situation? I think some of you have addressed that.

I'm afraid I'm with her on the appearance thing, I think that's very perceptive of her. (And she appears to be a very beautiful young woman, not sure that helps the issue or hurts it).

Then if I understand the request, it would be much more scientific if we could have several voices from a specific time period, we would get a better sample, and we can also try that, but at the rate of one a Tuesday we might be several hundred years old before we attained that goal, how would you want to try approaching that?? I think it's a good suggestion, it just flies in the face of what time we have left: nonetheless, I do want it ALL, how can we do that?

So we have represented so far (and please remember YOUR OWN SUBMISSIONS for Topic Tuesday are eagerly solicited, send them to me so I can get them up on HTML pages?

So we have three very different voices here so far. Mahatma Gandhi's wife (who, by the way, Carolyn tells me has written her own autobiography and I really think I need to read that and not only read it but we may here want to look at it in the future, wouldn't you KILL to see what SHE said? I loved her spirit). She was presented strongly by a male author in the piece. Then we have a woman presenting herself in terms of metaphor, which in itself bears closer scrutiny, is that a means of distancing and cover-up itself? Beautiful writing about the secret soul.

Now we have a young woman, an adventurer who says you can do anything you like, anything, and again a different, totally different view of life from the other two, so I'm not sure what conclusions we can draw but the voices speak for themselves, we'll try to get up a chart asap showing the first three.

Last week's issue of In Edit: thank you, Maryal, NEWSWEEK! Magazine was all about the differences in sex and perceptions and had a very interesting quiz, it's the one with the little boy and girl on the cover, talking about why Autism strikes males mostly, if you're interested in whatever biological differences there may be between the sexes you might want to try to read that article, (not sure if it's online).

Here's the link to the autism article--interesting reading.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/961387.asp

OH thank you SOOO much Maryal, I see I need to correct my post it's Newsweek, thank you!!

Still on? Are you having classes today? How's the wind there? Be CAREFUL!!

I wish we could find the quiz that accompanied that article, I think we all should take it: some of the questions are quite interesting if we can get that issue or find the quiz, I myself was bemused by them, many thanks!

Hi Ginny, Yes classes today with truncated schedule. All out by 12:45. Rain has begun, skies look like hurricane weather, bright in some strange places, dark in others. It's most likely going inland, to the west of DC instead of Annapolis. Power outages are expected. I expect we'll get the worst of it late today and tonight, but who knows.

Maryal, I got a big grin out of your $5.00 each inheritance for your children. I hope you enjoy your Virginia Tea immensely.

Carolyn, a quick side note here. My daughter has a New Zealand friend she met thru' the Internet also. Her friend lives in Auckland. How far is that from your neck of the woods?

Ginny, I was caught by your comment that the author of the last piece was a beautiful young woman, yet she seem to have a negative opinion of women taking effort to enhance their appearance. It has sometimes appeared to me that thoughtful beauties can be much more aware of how little that beauty has to do with who they are. They therefore know just how much value to place on outward appearances. How many times have you seen a beautiful woman marrying a man of no particular good looks, and heard the comment, "I wonder what she sees in him?" I would say she has found a man who sees her. ...Babi

Babi - I live in one of the four cities that make up the Auckland Region. The Auckland region is very sprawling and has Four cities and two county councils in this region. I live in Waitakere City which is West Auckland which is about 15mins from the heart of Auckland city in off peak hour and more than an hour in peak traffic. What suburb does your daughters friend live in? I could then tell you if its very near to me.

Carolyn

BaBi, Beautiful young women have very little need to enhance their appearance. And some of the women who marry a man of no particular good looks see money when they look at him.

That's Malryn, BaBi, not Maryal. Maryal would never be as selfish with her children as Mal is.

Maryal, do you still have electricity, I wonder? It's hard to believe with 650,000 homes without power in NC that we still have ours. I hope you and everyone else affected by this storm are all right.

Mal

Here is the capsule information about the books I had suggested.

1. A Doll's House (1879), a play by Henrik Ibsen, is a social drama. Nora Helmer, sheltered, coddled, and expected (first by her father than her husband) to be nothing more than an amiable decoration, leaves her husband alone in the Doll House after eight years of marriage.

2. Hedda Gabler (1890), another play by Ibsen. Hedda is a ruthless, shallow, neurotic woman, bored with her dull scholarly husband, repelled by the idea of her possible pregnancy and worried she may have to forgo certain luxuries if her husband should fail to be appointed professor at the university. Many famous actresses have played this coveted role.

Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen (1828-1906) is considered the father of modern drama. He brought the problems and ideas of his day to the stage, emphasizing characters rather than ingenious plots. His work reflects the twin themes dear to him : that the individual, not the group, is of paramount importance, and that the denial of love is an unforgivable sin, tantamount to a denial of life.

3. Effi Briest (1895) by novelist Theodor Fontane is the story of a lovely middle-class girl who is forced by her family to marry a baron more than twice her age, a man who was once linked to her own mother.

In this context may I mention Gustave Flaubert's immortal Emma Bovary ? We discussed this masterpiece and the unhappy heroine a few months ago in depth in two concurrent discussions, one in English, one in French. Incidentally, "Emma Bovary" is referred to also in the novel "Disgrace" now under discussion in the Books.

"And it struck me then that the most difficult thing had been the decision to act, the rest had been merely tenacity-and the fears were paper tigers."

I can relate to the first passage. In some instances, I find it very hard to ignore my fears and move forward. In most cases, after moving forward, I find or discover that my fears have been only "paper tigers."

Each stage of life, I think, is an unknown path. The good part is knowing I have made it through so many of these secret passages. I say "secret" passages because so often the women who have gone through these stages don't have time or don't realize the importance of their own efforts so they don't tell where they have gone, and we walk the path alone.

Those of my friends or family who do share their journey are the ordinary heroes in my life. These are the courageous women whom I never want to forget. I include my friends here as women who help me make it through frightening territory.

At this point in my life, my greatest fear is being alone. Is there a statistic or a fact about women living longer than men? In my whole life, I have never lived alone. First, I lived with mom and dad. Then, I married.

Anyway, each stage of life, I think, has its own unknown paths. The good part is knowing I have made it through so many: my teens, my twenties, thirties and forties and now, I will make it through my fifties and beyond always with the help of other women.

HATS, I always hated being alone, yet somehow through my life I found myself alone more often than I wasn't. By keeping my mind occupied and staying very busy, I don't get lonely, though I am alone in this room most of the time. The computer and these discussions help prevent loneliness. I am also not afraid to be alone. I know from experience that if unexpected happens, I will manage. I imagine there are other women here who feel this way, too.

Mal

Hats- Most women adapt to living alone far better than men adapt. When my husband died I had never lived alone. I went straight from my family home to marriage. I won't say the first years were easy - they weren't but each year it got better. Now I treasure my solitude, I treasure pleasing myself when I go to bed, when I get up, if I want to cook or not, I can listen to a book all night if I wish. I can make tea in the small hours and there is nobody else in the house to disturb. Its a time to do things you hesitated to do when there was someone else to consider. Its a different life but it can be a very fulfilling one.

Carolyn

Hats, what a beautiful post, actually I wasn't going to mention this here but I also have been inspired by everyday heroes, some of whom are/were weathering some of the worse straits imagineable in coming thru the human condition, and none of whom, I don't think, ever knew they were so inspirational. I have learned a lot about life in my own Mobile Meals route here in rural SC which I have had for 17 years.

Being alone is an interesting concept. Through the internet none of us are alone, we may be physically alone but nobody needs to be mentally alone when they are lucky enough to be able to reach out like this to others, it's a really good thing.

I'm wondering if what matters in the long run is how you approach everything or not? I dunno the older I get the more I realize that I have no answers and the strangest thing is, I used to think I should write a book I knew so much? But now it seems I don't know a drop in the ocean, it's amazing how much I don't know, and it's amazing how much others DO, getting old is an amazing experience, isn't it?

Would you say the attitudes this young woman has will stand her in good stead or are they brittle enough and not realistic enough and will break?

Should you look at life as one large ocean whose waves you continually have to sttack or can you ride some of them peacefully till it stops?

Wow we're getting here away from woemn or are we?

ginny

Like the ocean, life is not always turbulent. It's learning to appreciate the peaceful, sometimes dull, times that can often be hard, I think.

My mother, with whom I lived only 7 years of my life, and who died 5 years after she was forced by poverty to give me away because she could not afford the expense of an illness I had, has been an inspiration to me all of my life. Mama tolerated hardship with grace.

There are several women in SeniorNet whom I admire. One stands out among the rest. She is known as Sea_Bubble, or E T when she writes her beautiful poetry and prose.

There is a special reason why I find her approach to life a fine one. She had polio at the age of two when her family was living in the Congo. Her childhood was filled with treatment for that illness and operations, some in San Francisco, some in Switzerland.

Polio left her with two paralyzed legs. She can walk only with two full leg braces and crutches and spends a good deal of time in a wheelchair. If I have had problems as a result of this illness, Bubble has experienced twice as many.

She lives in Nathanya, Israel now, and is under constant threat of bombing for herself, her husband, her two children and other relatives. Despite this and her disability, she is cheerful and an inspiration to other disabled people through her volunteer work as a chat host of a support group for people who have handicaps of all kinds. She loves to read and learn, and does volunteer work at a lending library for newcomers to Nathanya and other Israelis.

Yesterday morning I was very much surprised to receive a phone call from Bubble, who has been on a much-needed and rare vacation in Europe. She called me from Brussels because she was worried about how I'd cope in the hurricane. Uncomplaining, generous, willing to give of herself, kind and good to others and herself, these words describe my friend.

Mal

This discussion has taken a really inspirational turn. I have gotten so much good advice from your posts about dealing with adversity. Kiwi Lady, I love your post about looking at the bright side of living alone and enjoying its advantages. It is true that women friends can take the edge off the bad patches in life.

MAL, my sister lives and works at Ben Gurion University, which is not far from Nathanya. It is a cosmopolitan community of many religions and nationalities. She says it is tense there now with the increased violence and the breakdown of talks, but everyone goes on with with daily life as they always have.

It's been a pleasure to read the recent posts, esp. about what women have endured w/o letting it destroy them. My grandmother's life would read like an extended soap opera of tragedies, but a sweeter woman never lived.

Apologies to Maryal. I meant Malryn, I'm sure. (*~*(

Carolyn, my daughter's friend lives in Glenfield; a lady by the name of Lesley Pain who apparently takes great pleasure in sending fun gifts from New Zealand to her friends. Hearing from her is always a lift for Valerie. ..Babi

Babi - My mother lives in Glenfield. That's a suburb of North Shore City.

Carolyn

Carolyn, if you ever happen to meet Lesley Pain, do tell her you have something in common....Texas friends who are glad to know you! ..Babi

The recent posts have been a joy to read. There is so much pain in the world, but somehow we women find the inner strength to go on and the best of us find the good in any situation.

One of the things I learned while going through my Breast Cancer treatments was who my really good friends are. These women made sure I got to where I needed to be when I needed to be there.

Maybe we need to ask ourselves, when we vote for the first book to discuss, is 'what sort of relationships' are present in the story. Do we think they ring true to the reality of what we women really are.

Hattie,

I have found being alone surprisingly preferable. Living with a husband had its known rewards, but many single-again friends and I have shared individual pluses of quirky preferences. For example, I can't imagine checking with someone about a thermostat setting....I never get enough sleep, but the few hours I get come when I'm snuggled under a quilt in a chilly room.

I love not having to cooperate or compromise on when to eat, what to eat, when to be extravagant or frugal with money, where to put the litter box, when to unplug the phone. And, for this specific moment in my life, what movie to watch at 4 AM is as critical to the rest of the 24 hours as how much pain medicine to take and whether to cry or call a friend long distance, to hell with the cost. I really love my solitude and love having the choice of when to have solitude and when to add friends to my time. When I was younger, I coped well with being alone, but now, in my mid-fifties, I actually prefer it. That's a surprise to me.

Betty

GINNY...........Thanks for the welcome.I don't always have time to come in regularly but I will try.The Australian authors I like are the ones who write about the early settlers and the outback.The main ones that spring to mind are Judy Nunn (Southern Cross,Kal and Territory) Mary Durack,(Kings in Grass Castles,Sons in the Saddle,To be Heirs Forever)Sarah Henderson (Strength to Strength,the Strength in us all,Some of my Friends have Tails).I could go on but these are ones that I have read.Also Bryce Courtney is pretty good but I have only read two of his which are the Potato Factory and Thommo and Hawk.The latter is a bit vicious.

You may be interested in http://www.aussiebookshop.com.au This is a site where you can buy the books and they are delivered free to anywhere in the world in two to five days.

Love all the posts here, I wonder if people adjust better to solitude when they have been only children, do any of you have any thoughts on that one?

Val, I appreciate those suggestions for the future, that Strentgh to Strength particularly looks enticing, am going to look that one up, thank you for those!!

OK Topic Tuesday will yield to Wacky Wednesday, and our Topic will go up tomorrow as I have ISP problems and can't stay on more than 2 minutes, imagine what it took to post this hahahahaah The sun will come out tomorrow and we'll have a brand new (LONG) passage to digest and WILL get all these passages up also to keep so we can compare.

Meanwhile, LAST CALL!!

Here is the ballot about to go out for the Nominated Books for our first reading in Women in Literature! Is YOUR book in the heading represented? Is there one in the heading not here? If so please supply a descriptive passage and we'll be mailing out the ballot ....the minute we can stay on 3 minutes! hahahahah

Here's the List of Nominated Books With their Descriptive Passages: What's not here that is in the chart above? What would you want to add to the descriptions?

Yellow Raft in Blue Water: by Michael Dorris. This is a book about three generations of Native American women, each discussing the same events from her own point of view. It not only gives a clear portrait of each woman, but shows how important generation and culture are in our understanding of life.

The Awakening: by Kate Chopin

In a society with a stereotypical view of women, one woman struggles to be true to her own identity.

Writing a Woman's Life:

"A magical little book on all the ways we write our lives, including unconsciously, this title is popular in women's studies courses and could be read on its own or paired with an autobiography or biography. (P.S. The author has written 10 literate mysteries under a pen name.) Bushwomen, by Laura Flanders (Verso, March). A radio commentator takes a hard look at women in the Bush administration -- Norton, Chao, Rice, Cheney and Hughes -- and argues that they mask a highly anti-female policy."

America's Women, by Gail Collins (Morrow, Oct.). By the editorial page editor of the New York Times, a history of American womanhood from the time of the pilgrims."

Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe. - fictional life of a woman written by a man. Story set in the 1600's

Pope Joan by Donna Woolfolk Cross - novel based on the life of a woman who disguised as a man becaame the only woman to become a pope in the Catholic Church. Set in the 9th century.

Grania:She-King of the Irish Seas by Morgan Llywelyn - A novel based on the real life of an Irish chieftain (Grace O Malley)who struggled against the English ruler Queen Elizabeth the First.

A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Maggie Smith. Life of an Irish immigrant family in Brooklyn before the First World War seen through the eyes of a daughter.

The Red Tent by Anita Diamant Fictionalized life of Dinah, the daughter of Jacob.

Revolution From Within
Moving Beyond Words by Gloria Steinem: Gloria Steinem wrote about the woman's voice being inconsequential and unheeded in her books and much of what she writes, she experienced as in the "fabled" bunny attempt.

Metropolitan Life
Social Studies by Fran Lebowitz:

Fran Lebowitz was a political and mainstream commentator on American life and Virginia Woolf uses fiction for her metaphors.

The Color of Water:A Black Man's Tribute to His White Mother by James McBride (mistyped above). A loving memoir by a man who gives much of the credit for his success in life to his mother.

Oroonoko:The Royal Slave by Aphra Behn. - Aphra Behn (1640-1689) was the first professional woman writer in English literature. It is avaiable on line.

Middlemarch: A portrait of provincial Victorian life. A contrast between a woman passionate to use her gifts and talents in the world of the 1830's, and a pretty, spoiled woman who sees a man "whom it would be delightful to enslave". Virginia Woolf described Middlemarch as "..one of the few English novels written for grown-up people". {It is, however, 793 pgs in paperback form. Fair warning.}

Nominations available online: Herland by Gilman Perkins, Little Women by Alcott, and Sappho (different translations can substitute for Bayard as previously mentioned)

Madam Secretary,

A Doll's House (1879), a play by Henrik Ibsen, is a social drama. Nora Helmer, sheltered, coddled, and expected (first by her father than her husband) to be nothing more than an amiable decoration, leaves her husband alone in the Doll House after eight years of marriage.

Hedda Gabler (1890, another play by Ibsen. Hedda is a ruthless, shallow, neurotic woman, bored with her dull scholarly husband, repelled by the idea of her possible pregnancy and worried she may have to forgo certain luxuries if her husband should fail to be appointed professor at the university. Many famous actresses have played this coveted role.

Norwegian playwright Henrik Ibsen (1828-1906) is considered the father of modern drama. He brought the problems and ideas of his day to the stage, emphasizing characters rather than ingenious plots. His work reflects the twin themes dear to him : that the individual, not the group, is of paramount importance, and that the denial of love is an unforgivable sin, tantamount to a denial of life.

Effi Briest (1895 ) by novelist Theodor Fontane is the story of a lovely middle-class girl who is forced by her family to marry a baron more than twice her age, a man who was once linked to her own mother.

"...in an outspoken memoir, the highest-ranking woman in American history shares her remarkable story and provides an insider's view of world affairs during a period of unprecedented turbulence."

Here's some info on the short story GINNY mentioned:

The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Gilman Perkins. Written near the end of the 19th Century; available online. In a society where men assign and define women's roles, a woman finds she must repress her thoughts and feelings. She can't allow herself to get angry at her physician husband because he then accuses her of neglecting self-control. She sinks into depression and her husband instructs her to abandon her intellectual life and avoid stimulating company.

Marvelle

Oh, Marvelle, I already have my nose out of joint just reading that description!!! What a frustrating situtation!!!

Lou

Just a thought. Short stories would enable us to cover a huge range of literature. I for one find it hard to get books which are very much written for America. They are very expensive here too. It would be easier for me to access short stories as many of them can be found on line or they are in collections in our libraries. The Yellow Wallpaper sounds really meaty! Don't know what the rest of you think about my suggestion. I am not trying to interfere with the discussion just pointing out difficulties I may encounter in accessing some books.

Carolyn

Sometimes works can be difficult to obtain for many of us, no matter our locale. I believe that quite a few of the nominations are online and not limited to short stories but including novels, poems, and nonfiction. Perhaps Carolyn you can let us know which of your nominations are online? That would be a big help.

Lou, the husband in The Yellow Wallpaper riles me too. And the situation gets worse!

Marvelle

Hmmm...Ginny, I'm not sure if only children adjust better to solitude. Perhaps they do, but I think how children are raised...ie, how structured their time is by adults, etc. may also play a part. If a parent has a child's time so structured with social activities, "play dates" (something I never heard of until the last few years), from the time they're tiny, I think those children may have trouble with "solitude." If, on the other hand, a child is raised to know that saying he/she is "bored" meant Mom found some jobs immediately and that the child was expected to "entertain him/herself"...ie, play alone with whatever was available or read or work puzzles without expecting anyone else to "entertain"him/her that child has no problem with "solitude."

Maybe, too, the child's own personality comes into play here too. Maybe those children who used to be called "introverted"/shy handle solitude better than those who were called "extroverted"/outgoing.

Ginny, please note that Virginia Wolf's recommendation was mixed up with Fran Lebowitz's!

"Fran Lebowitz was a political and mainstream commentator on American life and Virginia Woolf uses fiction for her metaphors."

Solitude.... I just finished reading 100 Years of Solitude.... I have to say, I have no idea what that book was about!!! All those pages and no understanding!!! Will be interesting to read what that discussion here in Nov has to say....

I'm finding solitude a really interesting.... I think the word is concept. Do we have/Is there solitude in a crowd? or maybe I want to ask, do you have to be alone to have solitude?? Or am I just loosing it here?? LOL

Lou

Lou...I can be very much alone/have solitude in a crowd. In fact, it can be a refuge in a very large crowd for me.

That being said, because of a handicap, the positions I was able to work were highly public and involved a lot of dealing with people. I was mostly in the managerial field and when I retired, the first couple of years, I became a hermit. I think I needed that to de-stress.

I am just now becoming more available to people again. I do not play the radio, haven't in years and I watch only purchased videos on my "supermarket special" television or one of two shows. I often will forgo one of those shows if I have a good book or the sites I go to have busy discussions.

Solitude to me is important. I don't find it necessary to be "up" all the time or to have something on for noise. In my 52 years, I've found that I can be quite good company!

This week I am in Sydney, Australia's largest city, and can find no peace amidst the hustle and noise.I cannot wait to return to the country where silence can be actually heard.

In Western Queensland it is possible to see forever, I drive out along the beef road, not another human within cooee, and sometimes I think can almost see the face of God.People are fine and good company, but it is so wonderful to feel "the bliss of solitude"

Anneo

ANNEO...........What a wonderful description.I can see what you mean too.We rarely go up to Perth since moving here and although it isn't in the bush it's very countrified down here and so peaceful and quiet.Last week we had to go up for a Grandson's school Grandparents day and whilst there we decided to have a look around one of the big shopping centres for a change.We couldn't wait to get back home.It was so crowded and noisy.Here we are in horse country and we have two race tracks within coo-ee and apart from all the horses there are mainly farms.It's wonderful.

GINNY........If you like the outback stories and the hardships endured out there you will probably like the books I mentioned.There are many more but these were the ones I know.

After being brought up in a large family and having four kids myself, when I was widowed at 46 at first I found it extremely difficult living alone. However with time I have grown to enjoy solitude. In fact I find when I am with a lot of people for a weekend I am so glad when I get home to my quiet house! It does not matter what personality one has its just what we become accustomed to. I do think SN has been very good for me. I never really feel alone as there is always someone up somewhere in the world who is posting when I go on line. I often go on line in the wee small hours if I can't sleep as all the Americans Canadians and some of the Aussies are still up.

Carolyn

I understand your point, and think the human spirit adapts well to change. After 34 years of marriage, my husband doesn't intrude on my solitude, he is in fact part of it.

You say about people being on line, and I have come to think of you as being up through the night, and find the idea oddly comforting.It is I think the knowing that another person is there whether or no we talk to them, that makes one feel connected.

Anneo

What beautiful, introspective, thoughtful posts. Anneo, what a beautiful post, we live in the country here on a farm in South Carolina, and it's funny how you get used to that peace and calm--tho I can't claim there's nobody who might hear me (love that cooee!!) still it's very peaceful (except in grape season which we're about to enter). It's funny, really, I've always felt a peace in this place (it had been vacant 2 years when we bought it but not on the market) and while we were in negotiation for it I uused to come out and sit here, just drinking in the quiet. Oh for Pete's sake as I write this I am staring at a deer in the front yard who is staring at me, and that's the rub, the grape crop appears destroyed by herds of deer stripping the vines, so it's TENSE TIME here at Anderson's but I digress.

Do you think that perhaps being alone by choice and being alone by necessity are two different things?

One really fine thing about SeniorNet Online is you're never really alone and you can "talk" to people, as you see here, even in other countries, Anneo is way out there in the Outback of Australia as you see, this is a marvelous box here on the desk which brings you REAL people at the touch of a switch. Deer in yard with antlers.

OK today is Topic Tuesday/ Wacky Wednesday and here is our latest view of the life of a woman, this is a bit harder to answer the question, but I think it begs for an answer: how are these women portrayed in this passage Topic Tuesday #3?? What is this passage really saying about women here? Are they as helpless as they appear to be portrayed? What is it that binds them?

Topic Tuesday #3:

Adhering to Standards: Do Clothes Make the "Man?"

"Don't give in to it, and it will give in to you," Steel and Gardiner exhorted their readers. The women who lived in India in the heyday of the Raj could have endured the hot weather better if they had not been expected to continue to dress as though they were at Home. Even on the hottest days, they wore stockings and dresses, which fell, until after the first World War, in heavy folds to the ground: and, until standards were relaxed during the Second World, War, they never went out with their arms bars. Underneath they wore petticoat and camisoles and, for much of the Raj, the inevitable stays-the iron frame for the memsahib. Up to the 1920's, when they went out in the early morning to play tennis they wore petticoats under their long skirts. If they went riding, they wore light jackets. The Complete Indian Housekeeper and Cook , while firm on the ability of English women to survive the heat, listed a stifling amount of garments for the hot weather. First came a combination suit of silk or open-weave flannel, then corsets made of net, a petticoat buttoned to those, and a silk camisole to cover the corsets. Over that, it was suggested, a light woolen tea-gown would be suitable wear in the mornings. "A lady will find," said the authors triumphantly, "the discomfort of clothing in a temperature over 98 degrees, reduced to the minimum compatible with European ideal. " Many women also added cork spine-protectors and flannel cummerbunds. These last, Said Mary Frances Billington in her book Woman in India (1895), should be worn day and night round the lower abdomen "as it is of the first importance to women to avoid anything like cold in the organs peculiar to the sex." Is it surprising that by the middle of the nineteenth century those would could afford it fled to the Hills with their children, their pets, and their favourite English plants?

….by the second half of the 19th century, there was little social contact between British women and Indians. Men met each other in a business setting and occasionally shared sports, but the only Indians women met regularly were their servants. Missionaries often complained that British women did little to meet or help Indian women. Maud Diver in The Englishwoman in India (1909) intended as an apologia for her countrywomen, pointed to the formidable obstacles in their way: "a death-dealing sun, a hazy knowledge of facts, a lurking uncertainty as to how her advances would be received, the probable discouragement of her husband… Perhaps, too, they were quite simply afraid of the unknown.

Certainly there were difficulties involved in meeting Indian women, especially if they were in purdah. Purdah women could not be seen by an men except their close relations, so they had either to be visited in their own quarters or all sorts of special measures had to be taken by their hosts. Such meetings, arranged out of a sense of duty, were awkward and generally disliked by both sides….Different notions of courtesy caused much embarrassment: the British felt that the Indians were being impertinent for asking personal questions; the Indians felt they were rude for not asking them. The British women often grumbled at the Indian custom of putting scent on the handkerchiefs of honoured guests and they took off as soon as they decently could the garlands of flowers they had been given in yet another mark of politeness. In most of the memsahibs' descriptions the Indian women appear as picturesque types, more interesting for their dress than for themselves.

GINNY, I think being alone by choice and being alone by necessity are two very different things. I live in a country neighborhood in the one room apartment addition to a house set a good distance back from the street. It is far enough away from that street that I can't see a car if one happens to go by. From this room I live in I can see one house through a window. That house is so shielded by trees and shrubbery that it might as well not be there.

Because I am no longer able to get out by myself, the only other person I see besides myself is my daughter who comes in for an hour a day after dinner, if she is able to, or the rare UPS delivery man.

If I did not have the computer as a means to get to SeniorNet discussions and the social contact there, I'd have to find a way to get out with people (at no cost to me, since money is a factor) because I believe that being alone in this way in such a narrow world can do strange things to the mind. People are social beings, and are not meant to be this much alone.

Fortunately, I keep so busy with the three electronic magazines I publish, the writing group I lead and writing and reading I do that I don't notice being alone as much as I am. It will be a distinct and very unusual pleasure for me to go to the Richmond, Virginia SeniorNet Bash in May. I expect to be overwhelmed!

Mal

What did the men wear? There were references to the British reluctance to give up their ways and style of dress in The Piano Tuner. There were also mentioned other ways in which the British did not make an effort to adapt to Burmese culture in that book.

It seems to me that in the 19th century both women and men were restricted by hidebound ideas about what was proper and genteel and what appeared to them to be almost pagan and vulgar. Women suffered more in these climates because of the stays, petticoats and camisoles and layers of clothes which were the fashion of the time. And why were they the fashion?

Western fashion has always been dominated by male designers, whose ideas about what women should wear were based on what they thought women should be. Obviously, men in the 19th century were of the mind that women should be restricted, covered from toe to chin and laced into the boundaries with which men wanted to girdle them.

Today it seems as if the men who dominate the fashion world are titillated by the streetwalker look, which is just as degrading as stays and petticoats and binders were. It's hard to walk into a department store today and find pants whose "waists" do not rest on the hips not very far above the crotch and tops which don't reveal at least some of a woman's ribs and her belly button.

No, women have never been as helpless as they appear, but they are gullible to the whims of male fashion. I am amused today to see young women who all look alike; then remember that when I was much younger we females all looked alike, too, in our World War II uplift bras, girdles, slips, short pleated skirts, pullover sweaters that came down over our hips, jackets with big padded shoulders, bobby socks and saddle shoes.

If you can't find anything in the store that doesn't make you look like every other woman on the block, what do you do? Design and sew your own wardrobe and dress in a way that makes you unacceptable among your peers? I wonder.

Mal

It is unfortunately true that women have always felt it necessary to be in fashion in order to fit into their peer group. Acceptance is, I believe, the key. The non-conformer is generally regarded with either pity or, I suspect, envy. In either case, the deviant must be a very strong minded person, for she will not "belong" to the dominant social group.

The Englishwomen of India in the days of the Empire period had an additional imperative to preserve the 'civilized' English way of doing things. Never mind that the English styles and fabrics were wholly inappropriate to India. Superiority over all aspects of native life had to be maintained. And before we start thinking we wouldn't behave that way, think about all the complaints we hear about American tourists overseas. Hmm?

Mal is quite right that men were the dominant designers of women's fashions. I have sometimes suspected certain designers of a secret hatred of women. Why else would they impose some of those monstrosities on us? Lately, I have suspected the same of leading hairdressers. Who on earth came up with that new hair style that so closely resembles my old, worn straw broom?

..Babi

I almost forgot...Ginny asked for a description of the Austen books I recommended, "Pride and Prejudice", and "Sense and Sensibility". I guess I thought those were so well known they needed no desciption.

In "Sense and Sensibility", Austen contrasts two sisters and their different approach to life. The elder sister is 'sensible'; the younger sister is full of tender 'sensibilities'. The contrasts offer valuable insights, and the story offers great reading.

In "Pride and Prejudice", as one might suspect, a number of misunderstandings arise because of the 'pride' and 'prejudice' of the characters. There are lessons to be learned by all concerned, and they lend themselves to lively discussion.

//Babi

Solitude -- Since Ray's retirement, he works a part time job. So I revel in the time when he is at work. To have the house to myself is very important to me. However, I think it would be a burden if I knew he wasn't coming home.

When it comes to how we dress, it is all cultural. The ones in power usually set certain standards. As an American born during WWll and raised with the Baby Boomers, I started to reject much of the traditional and went with more comfortable clothing. So I look at the British in India from a perspective 'why didn't they rebel?'. It is very difficult to see it from their perspective.

Moll Flanders by Daniel Defoe Complete book on-line http://www.blackmask.com/page.php?do=search&query=moll+flanders&cat_id= Full title: The Fortunes & Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders &c. Who was Born in Newgate, and during a Life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her own Brother), Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest, and dies a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums .

OROONOKO; OR, THE ROYAL SLAVE by Aphra Behn Written by first English woman playwrite. Complete book on line at http://www.blackmask.com/page.php?do=page&cat_id=491 "And turning to the men that had bound him, he said, "My friends, am I to die, or to be whipped?" And they cried, "Whipped! no, you shall not escape so well." And then he replied, smiling, "A blessing on thee"; and assured them they need not tie him, for he would stand fixed like a rock, and endure death so as should encourage them to die; "But, if you whip me," said he, "be sure you tie me fast."
"All women together ought to let flowers fall upon the tomb of Aphra Behn, which is, most scandalously but rather appropriately, in Westminster Abbey, for it was she who earned them the right to speak their minds. It is she--shady and amorous as she was--who makes it not quite fantastic for me to say to you tonight: Earn five hundred a year by your wits." -- Virginia Woolf, A Room of One's Own

The Whole Woman by Germaine Greer Found this about her. http://books.guardian.co.uk/authors/author/0,5917,-79,00.html

Writing a Woman's Life by Carolyn Heilbrun Carolyn Heilbrun in Writing a Woman’s Life observes

“It is hard to make up stories to live by. We can only retell and live by the stories we have read or heard. We live our lives through texts. They may be read or chanted, or experienced electronically or come to us like the murmurings of our mothers, telling us what conventions demand. Whatever their form or medium, these stories have formed us all. They are what we must use to make new fictions, new narratives.”

Little Women by Louisa May Alcott can be downloaded at http://www.blackmask.com/page.php?do=page&cat_id=139

GinnyAnn

Mal - You are right, to be alone by necessity in the manner you describe is not good. That is why I believe SN is such a lifesaver. I am fortunate that I can choose to be alone if I wish or have company if I wish. I do appreciate being able to have this choice. When everyone goes away at Christmas time which is our summer hols I find being able to keep in contact with my cyber pals on SN is a great comfort.

Clothes- I must be honest and say I have never been a clothes fanatic. Clothes do not mean a lot to me. As long as my clothes are clean and tidy they don't have to be fashionable. I rarely buy clothes. Mum gives me her very nice cast offs as she buys more clothes than she can wear and they are tasteful and suitable for both of us. Mum does not dress like an old lady. I also dress for comfort rather than fashion so I don't think I would have fitted in too well in the time period described in the Tuesday piece! Perhaps I would have shocked my peers.

I am really thirsty as its 6am Thursday here so I will make myself coffee and come back later.

Carolyn

Remember Michener's Hawaii??? the father forced his family to wear the long handles and woolen clothing sent out to them, while the natives were so comfortable??? That's what this piece reminded me of....

I was amazed in reading Freedom at Midnight just how far the English went to perserve their Englishness while in India. But didn't these ladies dress this way at home for riding? and all other occasions? No wonder they headed for the mountains and the cooler weather.

Lou

But you describe it well, and if I close my eyes, I can imagine your circumstance, and for a short time at least, empathise.

You have an excellent ability to pass on your feeling and circumstance here on senior net, it is unfortunate that we cant spirit you away to the sea or the outback, but we can at least enjoy your company and your skill with words.Incidentally, think your mind is in top shape, so you are obviously keeping it active.It would be the simplest thing to become introspective in your case, I should imagine, and yet you persevere and appear to enjoy.

Anneo

Anneo:

Thank you for your beautiful post. If you click the link below and read a short description of my room, which I wrote in 1998 before my daughter and I had to leave this house for two and a half years, you will see another reason why I don't mind living as I do. There have been some changes. My friend, Carl, is dead. There's only one cat now (the black-purple one), and I would like a little ocean in my life.
THIS ROOM

I think that I am alone from both necessity and from choice. I need these times alone to face the crowds of people out there.

Margaret Mead's books about "Coming of age in Samoa" is about young girls, (and boys); and the tightly woven rituals their society goes thru and the other book,"Growing up in New Guinea", is of a similar vein. My mother purchased these books for me to read when I was between 14-16 and it opened my eyes so much! I think they should be required reading not just as another culture's ceremonies, but in the fact that we are alone and yet we stand together as a people communing on this earth, different but the same.

"Eichmann in Jerusalem" is a story about when the Nazi had been captured and brought to trial. The effect of this trial and the almost seemingly old man and his garden normalcy really effected allot of people. It was this young Jew, Hannah; that first came up with the phase, "The banality of evil."

GINNY, thank you for this excellent, challenging new topic.

Your questions :

1. How are the women portrayed ?

2. What is (the article) saying about them ?

3. Are they as helpless as portrayed ?

4. What binds them together ?

re 1. and 2. The English women in the article are in India as wives of military personnel or members of the diplomatic corps. They are portrayed as rigidly (and obediently) adhering to the dress code of the era, irrespective of (or simply ignoring) the vastly different climatic conditions, "carrying on" valiantly, with their escape to the hills the only relief in the hottest season. That escape was a practical necessity, an entitlement to which there seems to have been no opposition. This phenomenon is hardly new : In the hot humid Italian summers, the Florentines continue to escape the city and head for the hills of Fiesole, as they have done for centuries since the times of Dante, Petrarca and Giovanni Boccaccio, or even before.

re 3

Were these women helpless ? In what way ?

Obviously they couldn't run off but had to make the best of the situation, as women have done for centuries. I tend to believe in retrospect that these women coped as best they could and were full-fledged members of the colonial forces - at least to the outside world. Clearly there must have been financial compensation for the husbands to make it all worth while. I am sure some of those wives, especially officers' wives, came to like their environment, the obedient ever-present servants, the leisurely life within the confines of their own privileged mini British colony in an exotic outpost.

That is hardly unusual either in this century; Americans have created their own compounds in other countries.

re 4

Despite differences of class (very important in those days! - and even now) the women were bound together simply because all were in the same situation.

As for "Do Clothes Make the "Man" (or Woman) : Yes they do, to an extent, but that is a whole different tangent.

One of Kipling's lines comes to mind in connection with this discussion. Writing in India, there is a poem with this line: "for the Colonel's lady and Rosie O'Grady are sisters under the skin".

His poem "The Female of the Species" might be an interesting topic for discussion here. The closing line of each verse is the theme: "the female of the species is more deadly than the male".

..Babi

I'm not me anymore since I got old so I couldn't tell you who I am now because I do't know. It's interesting trying on new ME's though nothing much fits. . . old means limited but there's still enough left to fool with. I'm impatient with others and myself when things don't get don't RIGHT NOW. . . I think tht's new, frustrating. I'd rather not own that one. the movers agent is on her way. I had one yesterday wanted over twelve thou to move me. . . a male. . . let's see if a woman see's things differently. . . . cllaire

"...the female of the species is more deadly than the male". is a quote I have often heard. It is a thought I agree with. Mother bears won't let anyone near their cubs, including the father bear.

Good luck with the movers, Winsum. Wait until you hear about the insurance coverage.

GAJ, bears aren't the only ones! If you have Kipling around, take a look at that poem. It's a mixture of serious/humorous. I find myself divided between thinking 'true', and 'now wait just a minute!' ..Babi

I think if somebody would like to put the poem here I would like to refresh my memory of it and what it says, I think we might all enjoy commenting on it and the impression it gives; I think it would be fun. I recently read Kim by Rudyard Kipling and was blown away by his ability to paint a scene in words, I'd love to see it!

Our Topic Tuesday this week, and I've loved ALL your thoughts (and thank you for the additional blurbs for the nominated books, much appreciated, we've got quite a slate there!) was from Women of the Raj by Margaret MacMillan (1988).

I'm quite struck by the photograph in the passage for this week, a woman sitting sidesaddle, jumping a horse while holding an umbrella. It's an amazing photograph, to me and one I just threw in, there were a lot more.

The article seems to equate strength (don't give in to it and it will give in to you) with appearances, and "keeping up appearances," appears to involve dress. I can't imagine wearing all those clothes in that heat, no wonder they always had to lie down and were faint half the time in those British movies??!!??

Then the divide between the two cultures, again one of lack of understanding perpetuated by appearances, note that the lasting impression of the Indian women being of their dress being more interesting than themselves.

What is this passage saying about how each type of woman is portrayed? I would say neither seems of great character, depending on what you measure character by? Or what they used to measure character by?

So it would sort of seem to me that these women were in a prison, and while it's not entirely of their own making, they willingly seem to shut and lock the bars. What would have happenede if they had not done this dress code, would they have been shunned? Why would they have cared if they were? There's something being said here very important. (And was it only that way during the Raj??)

We know that some brave women (usually very old or perhaps very titled) occasionally risked all to actually befriend the Indians, and we have seen in Passage to India what happened, what are some other movies which have shown this? I can "see" one now but can't recall the name??!!?

What's that poem about stone walls do not a prison make nor iron bars a cage? I guess there are prisons and prisons and one big big surprise coming up involves prisons and I sure hope you all will help out with it!!

At any rate, this woman in the photograph is showing us several things at once. Sidesaddle is an interesting way to ride, many people think it's quite difficult, actually it's almost impossible to fall off, as your leg (in this case her right leg), is wrapped around a horn and jammed back under her left leg and it's one of the most secure seats there is (so much for that rumor). It's also one of the few ways you can ride in a skirt comfortably. In fact you'd really have to go some to fall off. However if the girth should break, you're dead because you could not roll free, jump off or anything else, you're dead, so to jump a horse sidesaddle is a very dangerous enterprise and to do so carrying an umbrella (which would probably spook a normal horse) is a powerful statement: I'm not sure what, but something very egotistical, at the very least. So I'm wondering why she's in that garb, is that her way of "acting out," and "showing off? or a bit of independence? The woman has an almost impeccible "seat," she's really a very fine rider, so from the photo I get an indominable spirit but from the dress and the article I get the opposite, so I'm not sure who is zooming who in this book, but it's a good book, nonetheless.

ginny

Stone walls Do Not a prison make

http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/kipling_ind.html

When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride, He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside. But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail. For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When Nag the basking cobra hears the careless foot of man, He will sometimes wriggle sideways and avoid it if he can. But his mate makes no such motion where she camps beside the trail. For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

When the early Jesuit fathers preached to Hurons and Choctaws, They prayed to be delivered from the vengeance of the squaws. 'Twas the women, not the warriors, turned those stark enthusiasts pale. For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man's timid heart is bursting with the things he must not say, For the Woman that God gave him isn't his to give away; But when hunter meets with husband, each confirms the other's tale -- The female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Man, a bear in most relations-worm and savage otherwise, -- Man propounds negotiations, Man accepts the compromise. Very rarely will he squarely push the logic of a fact To its ultimate conclusion in unmitigated act.

Fear, or foolishness, impels him, ere he lay the wicked low, To concede some form of trial even to his fiercest foe. Mirth obscene diverts his anger --- Doubt and Pity oft perplex Him in dealing with an issue -- to the scandal of The Sex!

But the Woman that God gave him, every fibre of her frame Proves her launched for one sole issue, armed and engined for the same; And to serve that single issue, lest the generations fail, The female of the species must be deadlier than the male.

She who faces Death by torture for each life beneath her breast May not deal in doubt or pity -- must not swerve for fact or jest. These be purely male diversions -- not in these her honour dwells. She the Other Law we live by, is that Law and nothing else.

She can bring no more to living than the powers that make her great As the Mother of the Infant and the Mistress of the Mate. And when Babe and Man are lacking and she strides unclaimed to claim Her right as femme (and baron), her equipment is the same.

She is wedded to convictions -- in default of grosser ties; Her contentions are her children, Heaven help him who denies! -- He will meet no suave discussion, but the instant, white-hot, wild, Wakened female of the species warring as for spouse and child.

Unprovoked and awful charges -- even so the she-bear fights, Speech that drips, corrodes, and poisons -- even so the cobra bites, Scientific vivisection of one nerve till it is raw And the victim writhes in anguish -- like the Jesuit with the squaw!

So it cames that Man, the coward, when he gathers to confer With his fellow-braves in council, dare not leave a place for her Where, at war with Life and Conscience, he uplifts his erring hands To some God of Abstract Justice -- which no woman understands.

And Man knows it! Knows, moreover, that the Woman that God gave him Must command but may not govern -- shall enthral but not enslave him. And She knows, because She warns him, and Her instincts never fail, That the Female of Her Species is more deadly than the Male.

The fact that this article is about English women in India is purely coincidental. All women of that era wore clothes that were not designed for comfort or freedom of movement. They were designed to conceal evidence of flesh or sexuality. Women on the frontier in the U.S. did not dress any more appropriately for the weather or their work than the English women described in the article. Not so very long ago, people thought it scandalous when Katherine Hepburn appeared everywhere in slacks (she claimed she did not own skirts). And even today, many women would rather ruin their feet than wear comfortable, properly fitting shoes.

And now the major goal of clothing for women appears to be to reveal as much flesh as possible. So, can anyone tell me, are these extremely revealing styles designed primarily by women, or by men? And are they truly for the comfort of the women? Are we any freer of the demands of 'fashion' or the 'mores' of the day? ..Babi

We have choices, some women show flesh, some dont. If you sit and watch the passing parade the ranges of dress worn by women are as diverse as is possible it would seem to me.Of course the norm dictates to us all, mostly because we have no wish to stand out from the crowd. Even the women who proudly claim not to be the slave of fashion, and simply wear what they want and dont care how they look, for the most part fit within the range of not drawing attention.

Personally, I recall as a young woman, I dressed to attract a particular type of man, and now I try to please myself.My 27 year old daughter wears clothes, which are generally considered beautiful by her peers, but strike me as way too revealing, because I could never comfortably show flesh above my elbow or knee.(no wonder I enjoyed my nun's habit)

In the end I guess we are all subjected to the whims and mores of our time, hopefully in 2003 in Western society at least, we women have more of a say than we did in the past though.

Anneo

Thank you Ginger for that wonderful poem, I love Kipling! We must look at him in more detail some time.

And thank you all for your wonderful insights on the issues raised in last week's Topic Tuesday, love the conversation here! (I didn't know you had been a nun, Anneo!!) Also thank some of you for the additional nomination blurbs, in email and here, when I get back from Washington DC next week where the Books will be one of the Presenters on the Mall at the National Book Festival (see the Welcome or Community Center above for more details) I will put up the author of today's Topic Tuesday and mail you all a ballot, we have so many books on it I don't know HOW we will ever choose, but it's nice to HAVE that dilemma, huh?

Ok last week's Topic Tuesday was about clothes, and the restrictions that society puts on people, as several of you pointed out, both men and women, I think today's woman is interesting in the context of the world in which she lived, (which I also thought was interesting) which seemed to bind women and men but in different ways. I'm beginning to think we have a long history in this world of being bound by "society." I wonder where that all started (can we blame the Romans for this, too? ) hahahaahah At any rate, here's another woman portrayed in literature, and even tho she was a real person, still the way she is portrayed here says a lot, I think. I am enjoying looking at all these different voices, and hope you are, too.

Carolyn did you say you wanted to mention something about Somorset Maugham? (sp?)

Topic Tuesday, September 30:

My mother decided she could not be happy with a husband who regarded flirtations and extramarital sex as essential aspects of “being a man.” She wanted someone who loved her, who would not want to hurt her by doing this sort of thing. That evening she made up her mind to end the relationship.

A few days later, Mr Liu Senior suddenly died. In those days a spectacular funeral was very important, particularly if the dead person had been the head of the family. A funeral which failed to meet the expectations of the relatives and of society would bring disapproval on the family. The Lius wanted an elaborate ceremony, not simply a procession from the house to the cemetery. Monks were brought in to read the Buddhist sutra of “putting the head down” in the presence of the whole family. Immediately after this, the family members burst out crying. From then to the day of the burial, on the forty-ninth day after the death, the sound of weeping and wailing was supposed to be heard nonstop from early morning until midnight, accompanied by the constant burning of artificial money for the deceased to use in the other world. Many families could not keep up this marathon, and hired professionals to do the job for them. The Lius were too filial to do this and did all the keening themselves, with the help of relatives of whom there were many.

On the forth-second day after his death, the corpse, which had been put in a beautifully carved sandal wood coffin , was placed in a marquee in the courtyard. On each of the last seven nights before his interment the dead man was supposed to ascend a high mountain in the other world and look down on his whole family, he would only be happy if he saw that every member of his family was present and taken care of. Otherwise, it was believed, he would never find rest. The family wanted my mother to be there as the intended daughter-in-law.

She refused. She felt sad for old Mr. Liu, who had been kind to her , but if she attended, she would never be able to get out of marrying his son. Relays of messengers from the Liu family came to the Xia house.

Dr. Xia told my mother that breaking her relationship at his moment was tantamount to letting Mr. Liu Senior down, and that his was dishonorable. Although he would not have objected to my mother breaking up with young Mr. L normally, he felt that under the circumstances her wishes should be subordinated to a higher imperative. My grandmother also thought she should go. In addition she said, “who ever heard of a girl rejecting a man because he got the name of some foreign writer wrong, or because he had affairs? All rich young men like to have fun and sow their wild oats. Besides you have no need to worry about concubines and maids, you’re a strong character; you can keep your husband under control.”

This was not my mother’s idea of the life she wanted, and she said so. In her heart, my grandmother agreed. But she was frightened about keeping my mother at home because of the persistent proposals from Kuomingtang officers. “We can say no to one, but not to all of them, “ she told my mother. “If you don’t marry Z you will have to accept Q. Think it over: isn’t Liu much better than the others? If you marry him , no officer will be able to bother you anymore. I worry day and night about what may happen to you. I won’t be able to rest until you leave the house.” But my mother said she would rather die than marry someone who could not give her happiness—and love.

The Lius were furious with my mother, and so were Dr. Xia and my grandmother. For days they argued, pleaded, cajoled, shouted and wept, to no avail. Finally, for the first time since he had hit her as a child for sitting in his seat on the Kang, D.r Xia flew into a rage with my mother. “What you are doing is bringing shame on the name of Xia. I don’t want a daughter like you!” My mother stood up and flung back the words: “All right, then, you won’t have a daughter like me. I’m going!” She stormed out of the room, packed her things, and left the house,

In my grandmother’s time leaving home like this would have been out of the question. There were no jobs for women, except as servants and even they had to have references. But things had changed. In 1946 women could live on their own and find work, like teaching or medicine, although working was still regarded as the last resort by most families...It was only since 1945 that women could contemplate getting into a university: under the Japanese, they could not go beyond high school, where they were mainly taught how to run a family.

This sounds like Amy Tan to me. You always get such a clear understanding of Chinese customs with her books. The key point here, to me, is that independence [being able to earn your own way] equals the right to choose for yourself. ..Babi

The inter foritude she had to have had, to pack and leave family behind. Good for her! But, I wonder what it cost her as her life moved forward? Did she find the love she sought?

It's sad that the man is excused for choosing to sow his wild oats. I am glad the woman was strong enough to wait and search for a better man.

It does sound like Amy Tan. But it also sounds like many other Chinese and Japanese novels I have read about those years when a female's life was totally controlled by her family and society, and her sole purpose was to marry well, bear children, and obey her husband and her mother-in-law. Of course, none of us are ever completely free of the family and culture in which we grow up, but today women in most cultures have many more choices than they did even 50 years ago. But even today, despite DNA and paternity suits, men are often free to sow their seed and escape responsibility for the fruit.

I hesitate to bring reality television into this august subject body, but perhaps its worth noting that the winner of Big Brother was a female Korean American.

This lady, like all ladies who had the fortitude to leave a situation they can’t live with, has my great respect! What a catch 22 for her… This really is a good example of the double standard that existed, exists for men and women. His “wild oats” don’t bring shame on his family. Her not honoring funeral customs, even though she has broken her engagement, brings shame on her and her family. You are just too right, horselover! And we didn't even mention child support...

The funeral customs seem excessive to me. The American way of death can be hard to bear, but this weeks long process would be impossible for me. Cultures and customs can be hard to understand in so many ways...

Lou

GinnyAnn, I'm floundering tonight trying to determine where best to post this to you here in Seniornet. Maybe this "Women in Literature" forum will suffice, "Cold Mountain" being partly about 2 women who persevere in mid-1800s rural mid-west (my youth too, mid-1900s).

A long time ago, you led us in a fun group-discussion in TA about Frazier's "Cold Mountain" bestseller. There then, we'd discussed who the ideal "Inman" might be in some future movie version. There, we mostly voted for craggy-faced Clint Eastwood.

Now, it's 2 years later for us. And a movie version of "Cold Mountain" will open in USA theatres in Dec. The Inman role will be by Jude Law. I guess it's time for me to give such a potentially plum role to one of our country's newer good actors.

Early hype is that the Ada role by Nicole Kidman is Oscar-quality. I guess we'll see...in late Dec. Hopefully, Jude Law's Inman will also be of Oscar-nomination quality. It's a meaty role, if well-done.

Here's only photos of Jude Law I could find at first fast search online tonight: publicity photos from his supporting role in a 2002 movie "Road to Perdition" with Paul Newman:

http://home.thirdage.com/Reading/jimva/judelaw2.jpg

http://home.thirdage.com/Reading/jimva/judelaw1.jpg

-- JimVA.

Well hello, Jim VA, long time, no see, glad to see you here again, we also read Cold Mountain here in our Books & Lit, some time ago and I LOVE Jude Law, I watched the Ripley movie three times just to see HIM but I can't see him in Cold Mountain (it will show how good an actor he really is, I guess). Anyway, welcome to Women in Literature!

Many of you will be saddened to learn our Betty Gregory is in hospital, we've heard from her son, you might want to drop her a line of get well when you get a chance!

Tomorrow is Topic Tuesday and we need to get the voting ballot arranged and in order, am just in from our representation at the National Book Festival and it may BE a day or two before I can get settled, but keep watching this space, hope to see YOU all here when our next women goes UP!

Long time No See, Welcome back.

Senior Net Books discussion on Cold Mountian

Check it out if you wish to.

I'm so sorry to hear about Betty. I hope her recovery will be swift.

Mal

It is so good to hear from you:-) We did have some fun in that book discussion. What have you been up to?

I am interested in how well they do Cold Mountain.

Do you have an email address for Betty?

Carolyn

Yes, here is Betty's email: bgregory@sbcglobal.net, am running a bit behind with Topic Tuesday and the ballot, but have some simply stupendous news for you all which I hope you'll like, so please stay tuned here and hold your breath!

ginny

GINNY, now you have me all agog to know what the 'stupendous news' will be. What a tease! (Can't hold my breath. :>)) ..Babi

I am sorry to be delayed getting back in here, and apologize for my tardiness, today being Tuesday I have a new Topic Tuesday for you (Babi, I think the magnitude of the news!!! or at least I hope the magnitude) is well worth the wait!!!! hahaahhaahah

I'm holding my own breath haahahahah

At any rate, last Tuesday's selection was not Amy Tan but that's a very good guess, it was from Wild Swans, a non fiction autobiography by Jung Chang, and I agree it was quite good. The funeral outpourings in this country since the death of Princess Diana have amazed me, but as you can see, it has a basis in older cultures, I can't imagine having to live thru such constrictures!

I found that fascinating.

Equally fascinating today is a new voice, from an unexpected quarter: the York Correctional Institution, one of 11 profiled in Wally Lamb's new book: Couldn't Keep it to Myself: Wally Lamb and the Women of York Correctional Facility. There are so many different voices, and experiences, and NO self pity, I found it hard to choose one, I hope this one will interest you!

.

Here is the author:

Her name is Robin Cullen, does she fit our preconceived notions of a hardened criminal? Here is her background:

At age 34, Robin Cullen was driving home from a wedding when she and her girlfriend, a passenger in Cullen's truck, changed destination. Cullen became disoriented, entered the wrong side of a divider road, and attempted unsuccessfully to correct her error. Her vehicle flipped over, killing her passenger. Cullen was subsequently convicted of "second-degree manslaughter with motors vehicle ,driving while intoxicated." She served three years of an eight0year sentence.

While incarcerated, Cullen served as a teacher's aide, a literacy volunteer, and a backup puppy trainer for the National Education of Assistance Dogs project. Additionally she worked in date entry, coding accident reports for he DOT, served as a lector for Catholic Mass, earned college credits and painted walls throughout the prison school, including one classroom's four sided mural of an enchanted garden. Upon release Cullen became certified through Amherst Writers and Artists Institute to teach therapeutic writing. Presently, she volunteers in weekly sessions at a half way house, working with women just exciting prison. Not thirty-nine, Cullen is sole proprietor of her own painting company Color Outside the Lines; she labors full time throughout Connecticut, customizing homes inside and out.

"I never thought it would happen to me, " Cullen says of the accident that sent her to prison. "I am grateful for all the love in my life, and for the truth that sets me free."

Topic Tuesday Selection: October 14, 2003:

Christmas in Prison

A crowd gathers to read the new bulletin--long faced women who look like children still waiting for a Santa who never showed. What the sign really means is: No Christmas Presents delivered again this week.

Each Christmas in prison, the commissary sells overpriced holiday packages. These are the only “gifts’ we are allowed to receive. Folks on the outside place their orders and send money to be deposited in our accounts. An inmate can order a holiday package as well as give herself a Christmas present if no one else has. The cost is deduced from the wages she’s earned, between 75 cents and $2.25 per day for jobs ranging from food prep to janitorial to teacher’s aide service. .

Even if I’d saved three weeks’ pay, I would only afford the lowest priced holiday offering, the “Health Package, “ which sells for $26. It contains Smartfood popcorn, reduced fat Oreos, Stella D0’ro diet breadsticks, and a small box of herbal teas. Herbal tea is not available during the year and I would love to have some, but I’m not willing to spend all that money for the rest of that junk food marketed as “healthy.” Last year I lucked out. Other women who’d received the herb tea but wouldn’t drink it gave me theirs. I made a dozen apple-cinnamon tea begs from last January through April..

..In 1997, the first of the three Christmases I’ve spent in jail, every woman on the maximum-security side of the compound found two bags of goodies outside her cell door on Christmas morning. Santa had left me a big blue bag of pretzel rings and a “party size” bad of salsa favaored Doritos. Yuletide decorations were a little “thin” that year: two scrawny, artificial Christmas trees, absent of lights and presents. The one in the dining hall had faded decorations and foil limbs. It barely survived the women brushing by it on the way to the chow line. The tree in the visiting room was in worse shape-as defeated and sad as the seasonal “returnees,” those emaciated woman returning “home” to Niantic for the holidays, their faces ashen and drawn, their bodies decorated with old jailhouse tattoos. Names, signs, symbols, declarations of eternal love: the women here sometime mark themselves and each other with sewing needles, shoe polish and ink from the barrels of broken Bic pens. For Christmas dinner that year, we ate roast beef.

A year later, Christmas, 1998, there were no “secret Santa” bags of pretzels or tortilla chips outside our cell doors. But the trees were back, a little more debilitated than the year before. For Christmas dinner, we ate roast beef.

This past year, no junk food, no trees. We ate roast beef.

When the trumpet of the jubilee sounds on the day of atonement, the Old Testament promises, liberty will be proclaimed and every man shall be returned to his family. No man shall oppress another (Leviticus, 25). When Jesus preached in the synagogues at Nazareth, He said no one belonged at the celebration more than the poor, the blind, and the imprisoned (Luke 4). Pope John Paul has proclaimed 20000 the Jubilee Year. At York C.I., however, no one’s gotten the message. The trees have disappeared, the roast beef dinner’s endangered, and the “presents “ have been held up until the backup of money orders gets unclogged. We can get out and Christmas is no longer allowed in. This is a maximum security facility.

and you expect intelligent comment.

I just feel this intense sense of shame, so much joyous christmas fare over the years, it is difficult to show interest in the one that comes in 2003.How could I have had so much pleasure while my imprisoned sisters had so little. "There but for the grace of God goes Phillip Neri."

I need to sleep on this one, everything I think, seems trite, in the face of such ignorance.If we live in civilized countries, where such events occur, is our silence not tacit approval?It is simple to sit here and weep, but it helps not.

Anneo

No, Robin Cullen doesn't look like a criminal, but she was driving drunk. When she did, she had a terrible weapon in her hands that she couldn't control, and she killed someone. She had to be stopped and learn somehow. It's too bad about her sparse Christmases, but there have been, and are, others (like me) not in prison, who have spent Christmases alone with no gifts and no companionship, too.

It's taking some courage to write this post. At the end of my marriage I was not just a mess of insecurity, I was desperate. I'd never been alone in my life before; I didn't have enough money to live on, and not only was I refused housing because I'm handicapped, I was refused every job I applied for. (This was in the 70's before the Disabilities Act was passed.)

I had used alcohol occasionally to dull physical pain in the past. At this point in my life, the pain I felt was as severe as any physical pain I'd ever had, so I was drinking six beers, or almost a quart of wine, over a period of 24 hours, enough to be able to function quite well, and not enough to feel or act drunk.

I had moved back to my hometown in Massachusetts where I hadn't lived for 26 years, being unable to afford the cost of living where I'd formerly lived in New York where my kids still were. Except for an elderly uncle, I knew virtually no one in Massachusetts.

One day I had a bad money crisis on top of learning that my elder son had suffered severe head injuries in an automobile accident in New York. The combination of my being very upset about how I was going to live and worry about my son and the alcohol I'd consumed was enough to make me lose control of my car when I hit a bad pothole in the road, and I veered to the left and hit another car.

Despite the seat belt I had on, my head hit the steering wheel, which gave me a bloody nose. There were no other injuries.

The police came and took me in to the police station to do a breathalyzer test, which I failed. I was told I could call someone to come and bail me out so I wouldn't have to go to jail. There was no one except my 80 year old uncle to call, and I wouldn't do that.

I was led to a small cell, locked up, and spent only one night in a jail with a small sink, a toilet and a cot with no pillow and just a thin blanket, but it was enough to make me know what prison must be like. One of the greatest humiliations for me was that the high school from which I'd graduated with honors was now the City Hall, and the city jail was in the basement.

During that awful night a policeman walked by the cell I was in and said, "What's a nice woman like you doing in here?" I told him I had made a terrible, terrible mistake. That didn't change anything.

I was released very early in the morning and taken back to my apartment in a police car. I went to court a few hours later. When I saw the two policemen who had come after the accident I'd caused and taken me to jail, I thanked them for arresting me and stopping me from doing more serious damage than I did. I had realized during that night that arrest meant "stop", and I certainly needed to be stopped, since I couldn't seem to stop myself.

What followed that night was a turnaround for me. I stopped drinking and began to change my attitude about many things. I was still struggling, and it was years later before anyone would hire me for a job, but I managed, and I've never been back in jail. I will never forget it, though.

I wonder if anyone else here in Books and Lit has been in jail for any sort of crime like the one I committed?

Mal

The day after the accident my name was splashed all over the newspaper under the headline "Woman arrested for driving while intoxicated."

The uncle who had raised me died two years later. He said, "After all I did for you" many times to me, and he never forgave me.

Mal

I am not sure, Malryn, if anybody else here has any connection with prisons in any way, In edit: But now my email suggests some VERY exciting possibilties for all of us, don't go away, ANYBODY!!

Malryn, thank you for that searing experience, so beautifully told.

Anneo, bless your kind heart, one thing that is interesting in all of these women's stories, well two things, actually, is that first off they can't discuss the case that sent them there, the information about Robin Cullen is Wally Lamb's own coda, the Son of Sam laws prohibit them writing about their own cases, and the wide range, I guess, of situations and cases and outlooks. (I just happened to choose this one).

"Luck," seems to play a large part in many of the stories, or bad choices, it makes ME personally thankful that I have not done exactly what you wrote: there but for the grace of God go I?) But a lot of people have.

And I think it would be easy for US to say, well you shouldn't have done XXX (which they know) but instead try to look at what this particular woman is saying and how she is facing up to what does seem to be a bleak Christmas, would we say, then, well don't do the crime if you can't do the time? What makes people make some of the choices we can see others making: this particular woman had had drinks at a wedding, the next woman we'll meet was stone cold sober and she's in there too, I guess we have to ask ourselves....well what DO we want to ask ourselves or say about this woman's voice?

I hope this will be interesting, and enlightening, for all of us, I hope it will not be too hard to bear; it has certainly opened my own eyes, and we will want to hear from both sides or opinions, because there are both, if we can.

Welcome to our new project!!

There's nobody else I would rather discuss this with, I hope to learn a lot from you and your experiences@

ginny

"Cullen was subsequently convicted of 'second-degree manslaughter with motors vehicle, driving while intoxicated'" says a lot to me. I was driving less than 25 mph. She had to be driving faster than that and a good deal more intoxicated than I was.

The drinks Cullen had at the wedding impaired her judgment. It doesn't take much alcohol to make that happen, as I and others I know, who caused much worse damage than I did, will tell you.

The choice I see here is whether a person is going to drink and then take the risk of driving and perhaps killing himself or herself or someone else, or whether that person is not going to drink, or drink and find himself or herself a designated driver.

In the hands of someone who is intoxicated, a motor vehicle becomes a lethal weapon. Since I have worked with alcoholics and drug addicts, I can tell you about real life stories and sentences that were far worse than what happened to Cullen, like the man who had "a few beers", who backed up his truck in a driveway and ran over and killed his five year old nephew, or somebody else who killed a man with her own hands when she was drunk.

As far as the type of Christmases she had are concerned, what did Cullen expect? One thing I learned after the incident I had was that I was not only responsible for keeping myself sober, I had to decide whether to be miserable and feel sorry for myself when I was too poor to have Christmas, or whether I was going to try to enjoy the day as best I could. Robin Cullen could have been thankful that she had roast beef for dinner.

I know it sounds tough, but if a drunk -- or anybody -- wants to turn things around, he or she can't afford self pity under any circumstances -- in prison or out.

Mal

I haven't been in prison (thank goodness) but I have worked in a maximum security male prison as one of the first women allowed behind the walls. I did this in my student intern days (social work) and it was an eye opening experience. I later set up a counseling center in a minimum security prison for men and found this an equally fascinating time. I'm not sure of the relevance of these experiences to our project, but Ginny asked for any kind of prison experience. I also had a woman student at the community college where I taught. She was in her 50's, very attractive and living with a man. They both had a few drinks one evening and then got in a big fight. She picked up a kitchen knife to protect herself, and he later charged her with assault with a deadly weapon. She was convicted and spent a year or so in women's prison. Women are often treated more harshly in correctional system than men would be for the same offense. I don't know if this has changed or not. I think our new project will be immensely interesting to all of us. Ruth

To me the interesting part of these stories is not how and why they got in the predicament they are in, but the way they conduct themselves once they are incarcerated. Will they become even more resentful and bitter, railing at the circumstances that brought them there, or will they accept what happened and try to make the lives of those around them a little less dreary?

Do you all remember Jean Harris, who was convicted of murdering Dr. Hightower(?) some years back? I always felt that that was too harsh a sentence, and could never understand the stubborn reluctance of any officials to reduce her time, etc.

If anyone could be considered a fish out of water, Ms. Harris, a former dean of a prestigious private girls' school, certainly was, in prison. She conducted herself with grace and dignity, befriended many of the other prisoners, and became famous for her fight to allow new convicted mothers to keep their children with them.

It will be fascinating to see how these women adjust to their fate.

Lorrie

Yes most go back to prison and they are the ones we hear about but there are Many who come out and stay out but we do not hear about them as the shame stays with them for the rest of there lives so they don't speak about it. I agree about our courts not being fare as I knew two women, one who shot and killed her husband when she caught her husband in her bed with another woman. He was a Captian in the service. She was sentenced to life in prision and a gal who beat her childs head in a commode recieved 15 years and that did Not seem to be right to me as the husband was in the wrong and the baby had done nothing. They were sentenced in differnt states. It did seem to me that the woman who shot her husband should Not have gotten the heavier sentence but then I never heard the whole stories leading up to the crimes. They were both in Federal Prison due to the crimes commited were on goverment property.

I found myself angry at the prison system gouging of their prisoners, and the prisoners' families, by permitting only their own highly overpriced trash to be used a Christmas gifts. I suspect this sort of thing varies widely depending on not only the State, but even the individual prison authorities.

The earlier introductory remarks citing the percentage of women in prison who had been physically and/or sexually abused makes me ask, "What do we expect?" How can we allow people to be brutalized and dehumanized, but expect them to be law-abiding? I am doubly glad now that our legal system has become more aggressive against abusers.

As to the author of this article, I respect the fact that she did what she could while in prison to use the time wisely and usefully. She doesn't mention what she did before entering prison, but it may be she came out of it making a bigger contribution to society than she had before.

..Babi

So I'll concentrate on a remark Lorrie just made. I too thought of Jean Harris (who killed the Scarsdale doctor) because she was Headmistress of a posh girls' school near here and because her story was national news. The focus with Jean Harris, whether or not she "intended" to kill the doctor, was on what she did after she was convicted and sent off to prison. She has taught and worked for women's rights, things like getting to see their children, ever since she went to the Big House. So I think for this writing sample we look at what Robin writes about.

Robin's focus is Christmas and how that holiday is observed in prison. I thought the most interesting details were about the holiday gifts that could be purchased through the prison store--at exorbitant rates. I liked the detail about saving those tea bags that other prisoners gave her. (If I had been imprisoned with her, she could have had my teabags as well--herbal tea tastes like not much of anything to me.)

I didn't feel sorry for Robin though. Yes, Christmas in prison, or in any other bleak place, is going to be grim. And yes she drove drunk and her friend was killed in the resulting accident. Therefore she doesn't get sympathy from me for being sent to prison. It looks as if she has learned something from the experience since she continues to help prisoners even now that she is released.

My son spent some time in jail up in Maine, and I visited him there. He also has a drinking problem. I looked around at the other prisoners--we met in a large lunchroom that was almost completely bare except for tables (bolted to the floor) and benches (also bolted). I think the walls were yellow. I wondered what the others were in jail for. My son was not in good enough shape to fill me in very well, but he did tell me about a couple of people. One he described had been charged with murdering his wife and son. He was in jail awaiting trial. Son said he said he was innocent. Son also said that later accused man said, "It was all her fault. She shouldn't have talked like that."

On drunk driving--I am a member of MADD, contribute to them regularly and have a red ribbon tied on my rearview mirror. Cars are potential deadly weapons whether or not one is drinking. They become more deadly when the person at the wheel has compromised their reaction time.

Years ago when I was attending Al-Anon five nights a week, there was a woman also in regular attendance who had lost her two little girls, six and eight, when a drunk driver hit their car. I have never forgotten how much she continued to suffer some ten years after the experience.

I am amazed at the writing I've seen here. What did you expect? As to how they are in prison and how they relate, that is only the different personal personalities.

We are seeing an increasing amount of people being sent to jail as well as young children. The times are now harsh and unforgiving and those that were expected to be "sweet & innocent," are being judged far harshly then those who we expect this type of behavior from. Our prison system is very like any third world country and especially in the bible belt.

Fundamentalism in any religion, Jewish, Christian or Muslim; is more like communism then we would suspect. It is a cult which pits people into small groups and sets them spying on each other. It may very well be the false religion that we were warned against. People caught up in this cult tend to judge any transgression far harshly then it deserves and their reactions tend more to the barbaric to keep the populace in line. Fear and not love rules their gods with small gs.

We have made many mistakes in the US over the years and in the world in regards to those who may not have all the advantages. First we need to make education a priority again. Not the one that hides everything non-religious under a barrel, but the type of education that will help those to find jobs and support themselves at least adequately.

We need to have places other then the streets for the mentally ill to stay and education for them to feel a part of the world. If this is too much in their conditions, then we need a warm and caring environment for them to stay and again not in the streets!

Our youth have been angry for the last forty years. Instead of cursing them and working on tighter controls and bigger holding cells, again education. Sexual, personal and employment education. For those who are going to complain about costs and their property taxes or not in their town or neighborhood, most of the beginning costs would be covered by putting people to work in prisons, half way houses or volunteer agencies. The important thing is the outreach!

The world today glorifies the athlete or the entertainment star and ignores the teacher or the humanitarian. We are more concerned with building bigger prisons then schools. If someone needs help, we are happy to do so if it is convenient and lasts for no longer then 15 minutes and if they just go away and don't come back.

Our prisons are fuller then they ever been before. The majority of prisoners have a mental or emotional handicap. Why are we imprisoning those we could help otherwise and often before they reached that stage? Is it because its simpler, cheaper, gets them out of public view and we can stand up, righteously and say we've taken care of the problem?

Yes, I know there are true psychopaths and the ones who will always be criminals, but these are often a bare singular percentage of those in prisons. Alto, the number of psychopaths is said to be increasing. But what do we expect in this world of ours where you can find a beer or liqueur advertisement with healthy happy people every few minutes on television; but often not a job? Legal drugs are glorified in our society. Eat, drink and be merry! Ignore the human cost and suffering.

There is a movie on a local TV channel tonight here in the Triangle area of North Carolina called "Against Their Will. Women in Prison". If I watch it, I have to be careful about what I believe unless I'm told it's based on accurate facts.

I think I must also be careful about what the women prisoners say in what they write. They naturally want any reader to be on their side. Wouldn't you?

I don't know if $26.00 really was charged for a package of popcorn, Oreos, breadsticks and a small box of herbal tea, now, do I? What else was in the package that wasn't mentioned, I wonder? How can I tell what's been exaggerated or what's been omitted?

I think the tone of this quoted piece is what's important because it reflects the writer and what she is. Frankly, I'm not altogether impressed by that. This statement can be subject to several different interpretations.

What astonishes you here in this posts, ANGELFACE?

MACRUTH, you said a lot when you mentioned that the man and woman who got in the fight "had a few drinks". "Had a few drinks" can cover an awful lot of territory. I'm always suspicious when I hear that phrase. How can we tell how much alcohol intake influenced the behavior and loss of control on the part of both of them? Who goaded whom into physical violence on the part of each?

What I'm saying here, I guess, is that it's necessary to be careful when assessing these stories or judging the people who wrote them. We are actually in the position of a jury, in a way. How difficult it is to find the truth, and how easy it is to sympathize just because we are women.

Mal

The trick is to find which bias you're comfortable with. Thats life.

I guess what surprises me is that anyone is surprised by what goes on in prison, how the inmates and those outside, will remake it into their own visions or by thinking they were "unaware" of its reality.

I guess I am saying that the prisons exist not for crimes committed but as a way to hide or disguise our mistakes. Why is it so hard for a person to say I'm sorry I was wrong? Or I'm sorry, I did a terrible thing? Each stems from the present view of not accepting fault for our own actions and for not wanting to take responsibility or action to correct those mistakes we've made in the past.

In a land that glorifies glitz and bright lights, where the National Inquirer and People Magazine reign supreme, we don't want anyone to think we had anything to do with creating a world where education is slim to none and a hero is one who tosses a ball around. We want to just keep on watching that ball bounce around and keep on reading about "other" people's issues. Not in my neighborhood, street, home, you fill in the blank, life!

Mal, you're against alcohol abuse. I was married to an alcoholic, I can speak personally on the topic as well. You're also pragmatic as am I. I never believe anything that isn't backed by another source, yet even that shows bias as that source must be acceptable to what I'm already saying.

I am not excusing or seeking to trivialize what these people have done. What I am seeking to bring out is that is if we would start at the beginning and educate these people, most of this would never have happened. Prisons have become dumping grounds for the poor, uneducated and mentally ill because its cheaper then getting them help and caring for them in proper facilities.

Lets get rid of politics and get some sense back into our lives! Look at Jimmy Carter's Habitat for Humanity and the programs in some of the slums,(projects); where they are going in and putting these women with no husband and three or more children back to school and then into employment. These programs are literally begging for time. money and volunteers and yet high school boys are being offered millions to skip college and toss a little ball around.

An added note and perhaps as a result of these occurrences; how many of these "super sports heroes" are now in trouble with the law or in jail? And how many such as "star" Winona Ryder gets a tiny slap on the wrist? What has happened to our perspective? How did it get so warped!?

ANGELFACE, the word "bias" goes against my grain just as it does the fabric when it's cut that way.

There are none so unteachable as those who won't learn. Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom before they'll change. The old saying goes something like this, "Convince a man against his will; he remains a firm believer still."

Mal

Doing here? Is that not indicative of how we deal with women in prison.

Does it matter why They are there? What matters is how we as a people deal with it. I don't feel especially kind hearted, and am ever thankful I have never been incarcerated.

When Jane was at university, she got endless parking fines. Eventually after she began running the museum here, the long arm of the law finally caught up ith her. Her first few months of wages, seemed to be taken up with neverending outstanding warrants, she was required to pay.

When she thought it all done the Sergeant came over one day with three more, totalling $800 which she refused to pay. She was I guess totally fed up.Aparrently it was a bad day for him as well and he took her over to the local watch house and locked her up.He did then ring her dad, who went and paid the fines, but by then she was a blubbering mess.Our local doctor actually admitted her to hospital,overnight because she was so overly upset by the incident.She said afterward........... all was ok untill he locked the door, at which time she completely lost self control.Without discussing the inappropriateness of the policemans behaviour, the experience was simply terrifying to our free spirited daughter.

Quite frankly, having spent a life time having cared for children who suffered vile abuse at the hands of authority, watched some of them take one road and others take another, I have no surprise at people ending up in prison.What does shame me is how we treat them, in a world where we are all supposedly equal.

you dont have to like the word bias, but we are all tied to it.Cynicism is another word that comes to mind reading your post.Actually I thought this womans story had very little criticism in it, that made it appeal, she didnt imply bad treatment,I thought.Simply a kind of "nothingness".

As for feeling sorry for her because shes another woman, hubby was just as touched as me by the piece, and hes as tough as old fellows get.

I guess in a sense you live in a kind of prison, being tied to a wheelchair, and your ability to deal so well with that does you credit.Real incarceration though takes away our freewill, as I guess it should.Society has a job to do, perhaps we shouldn't enjoy it so well though.Also dont assume sympathy on my part means gullibility.

Anneo

I've posted here too much today. I've been quite sick with a painful infection from my brace and having to sit too much of the time. This is what happens when I start to recover and come alive again. Tomorrow I'll do better.

Anneo, I assume nothing. My comments are more directed to me than they are to anyone else. Perhaps I should make that more clear.

I may be biased, but I don't like anyone assuming that I am about something that never occurred to me and telling me that's what I am, that's all. There's nobody in this head but me.

I was out fighting for causes when I was Angelface's age, very few of which saw any changes because of any of the hard work I did, or anything else I did. I've learned a lot since then. Evolution of any kind is slow, generation after generation. What sounds like cynicism is reluctant acceptance of this fact more than it is anything else.

Now I'm going offline and work on the upcoming issues of my magazines with my mouth shut and my hands busy doing something creative! ; )

Mal

I have done wrong and was and am Very sorry for a mistake made in my younger years, stealing cars and crossing state lines due to my mother insiuating that my father was going to turn me in for a small theft in His home. so I ran across these statelines and was given probation and then got Raped and so I ran and ended up in Federal prison in Alderson, West Virginia. I can give you the mailing address if you want me to. I was sentenced to two years but got out in ten and ahalf months. The Warden wrote my mother that she knew that I did not belong there but mom thru the letter away for some reason that I do Not know but I am at this time trying to get a copy of that letter get the sentance off my record but it will probaly never get done but at least I am trying. I got a job that lasted 30 years and several of those years I was a superisor. I retired in 1985 and became a Chaplin for three God and country orginizeations (sp) and I will always be a Chaplin, am I perfect the answer is No as no one is, but I do the best I can and the angels in heaven cannot do any better I have been told. So know Know that some of us come out of prison and do alright.

Do the prisons charge a lot of money for Christmas gifts you doubt well the answer is Yes back them and I think that they probably still do. My daught was born if Federal prison because of the (rape and my running as it was a family friend) and Hates me for where she was born and there is nothing she or I can do about it. What can I do about that Nothing as unless I get that letter and get whatever they call it. My daughter is 50 and I am 70. She has no children.

If anyone has questions I will answer them honestly. I am telling all of all you this for if I can help anyone deal with Rape, Prison or anything, I will.

Do Not run away. May God Bless All of You.

Love, Ginger

I will go back to read some posts I have missed due to the long post.

Oh, Ginger. I don't know what to say. My heart goes out to you. I must think about this some more before I make any further comments, but remember we all love you!

Lorrie

It never ceases to amaze how "untouched" your sense of humanity is, because of a tough road.Why is it that you are still gentle of spirit, do you think? or is that too painful.

Anneo

I will go back to read some posts I have missed due to the long post.

Anneo, It is not to painful a question for me as I have Always loved people, maybe because of growing up traveling as far as I know but most of all I Love God the spirit and God the spirit Loves me. When I look back on my life I understand why it was the way it was. It was to understand people better so that I can be a help to those that need answers to why is this and why is that etc. But I am a person that knows that No One has all the answers but I do my best to answer what I do know something about.

To all who against drinking, I do drink but do not drive even after just one drink even with food and no I have never killed anyone. I also smoke but leave the table most of the time when there are Non smokers around even in my own home I will go outside to smoke as I do know that it stinks to them, what I do Not tell many unless it just gets to be to much for me is that there scent of perfume in any way causes me a rash as I even use unscented soap. When the world we live in stops all the polution such as cars as they could be electric but then the disposable batteries would become a problem so who knows what to do? I do Not.

Must move aroung the boards before I get to sleepy as tomorrow is our once a month retirees dinner that I must go to as I arange it.

Love to All, Ginger

You have come up against enormous odds and triumphed due to a glorious human spirit and the Lord's help. You are indeed a strong and loving person.

That being said. I think you have my posts confused with Mal's dislike of drinking and driving posts. Do you know that the statistics now are one in each two women have been raped and that in each group of four, one has been abused to almost the point of death?

For men, there is their own private hells as well and this has been going on for thousands upon thousands of years. No, we may not make much of a difference and there will always be set backs.

However, if we just keep chipping away and working to better our lives and those around us by education, employment counseling and the simple practice of teaching a personal standard of honor to our children, along with a strong sense of duty to the unfortunate and mentally incapable, we can make a big difference down thru time.

When I read the essay, I thought the woman was more thoughtful about her situation, not complaining, but describing the holidays she was experiencing. I did not get a sense that she was feeling sorry for herself - except that she was perhaps regretting what put her in that situation.

This little piece of writing surely touched folks in this forum.

I work with the very elderly, mostly women, and their life stories often surprise me - that quiet little person in the corner who so matter-of-factly tells me the most amazing things. The life stories present a different, fuller picture of that person.

One thing has been clear to me these last few years - we are much more unforgiving of others' mistakes, errors or misjudgments.

Anyway, I am engrossed in this discussion and the ideas that are presented.

N

angelface, I thought that I had separated the answers but maybe not so I shall go back and check. I have known about the hell men and their own private hells for a long time as many years ago (I will call him a friend) of mine studied hard for the minestry and left due to the Hell of his time, he got out and married and has four Fine sons and I am so proud of him.

As for if we just keep chipping away and working to better our lives and those around us by education, employment counseling and the simple practice of teaching a personal standard of honor to our children, along with a strong sense of duty to the unfortunate and mentally incapable, we can make a big difference down thru time.

I say Yes, Amen and So be it which means the same as you know but some may Not.

I feel more energy and money should be put into education in prisons and rehab programs for the drug addicts. Drug and alcohol addiction account for many crimes. I have never felt revengeful about prison inmates who are in for crimes which were not premeditated. I admit to feeling revengeful in the case of men who stalk sexually abuse and torture children and also in the case of parents who over a long period of time systematically abuse innocent children. Society does not reward those who ask for help. Point in case - a man went to the authorities and confessed that one night when his wife was out he shook his little son. He was tired, the baby was colicky and he felt so much guilt. Instead of putting a support network in place the authorities removed that baby immediately and treated the man like a murderer. Then again we have the authorities visiting homes where children are being abused on a long term basis and leaving these children in the home until the child is murdered. The man above was looking for help and what did he get - condemnation for honesty. We live in a very strange society.

I am sure that the woman who wrote the account we have just read is not moaning just pointing out where her nights drinking had got her!

nlhome, I agree with your posts All the way and apprieciate your wisdom.

I can not understand the abuse of children by either sex and both sexes are guilty of it in some way or another and have been for a Very Long time. I was abused in many ways as a child traveling as we met so many different people. I remember screaming It Hurts, It hurts as a man tried to penetrate me, I was fornate (sp) as he could have killed me right there in his hotel room. I do Not remember what age I was but it at a very early age as I know that I had Not started 1st grade. It was a trusted friend of my folks. Did I tell them? No I never did.

Some how I feel a burden being lifted by telling all of You my life. Thanks Senior Net and all of You posters as You mean so much to me.

I have to leave as I am welling up inside with a feeling of tears coming on so must go to a cheerer (sp) side of S/N.

Love to All, Ginger

That really astonishes me as well nhome, that way ordinary people have of just telling amazing stuff.

Ginger, hope this is all in some way cathartic for you.Certainly is for me, one tells of pain here that has remained hidden for what seems like eons.I always try to remember that it is hurting people who hurt others,maybe sometimes people are not nice people, because not such nice things have happened to them.

Anneo

Anneo, I do Not know what the word cathartic means and could not find it in my dictionary so please tell me what it means. OH yes I understand that maybe sometimes people are not nice people, because not such nice things have happened to them and so history repeats its self and maybe will for a long time but At this time until people can change thru learning but some of our teachers have the same problems and are not nice people, because not such nice things have happened to them as we are finding out and trying to correct.

I don't know about the rest of you but I feel deeply honored that some of you have trusted us with your stories. Bless you!

Carolyn

I do, too, Carolyn, and there are more to come, believe it or not, you all are truly amazing, I've not only read what you said, I'm printing it out to reread and here I am at 4 am on my way out of town today, so can't address each of you till Thursday afternoon but just to say this in passing:

THANK YOU, each of you for your own unique perspectives and insights.

There IS no better discussion, no matter what the differences are, than one which has a wide range of opinion and or experience. It is difficult to express your own thoughts when they seem to differ from others, but the joy of our discussions here is, we welcome the differences, and the more the better: you are among friends.

We acknowledge that this particular subject, women in prison, may be difficult to read about during the upcoming holidays in December but we do think it's so important that we want to try, and we could not pick a better group; I do think real learning will take place.

After reading your thoughts, I would like to hone in on ONE for today and that is to ask each of you to try to think of the answer to the question several of you asked: What did she expect?

What did she expect itself is fraught. To answer it we have to examine our own minds.

Let's change the focus of it a little bit and ask what appears quite simple but is actually, a toughie: what would YOU have expected Christmas would have been in prison?

If I came up to you today and said OK TELL ME truly what would YOU expect Christmas in a women's prison would be like, what REALLY would you expect? What would your answer be?

I freely confess no pre knowledge of prisons, have never visited one, know only one person (up until now) who has been IN prison and he was a former field hand here in the vineyard who killed another one of ours with an ax. I guess that makes him an ax murderer. But he's IT until now and I never visited him. Thus you can say that there's NO way my own perceptions are NOT going to be changed.

On televison this morning Andrea Yates appeared, the woman who drowned all her children. Now THAT, to me, is beyond understanding and reading. I would not read her story, would you? How easy it is to call HER a monster. Would you care? If she had Christmas? Is that a hard line? This discussion is going to really make a difference I think, at least in my own thinking. Let's forget about Andrea Yates and concentrate on Robin Cullen for a minute. I am not seeing self pity and agree with many of you about the way she presents the material, it's clear to me, tho, that she expected or thought the prisoners should have, more.

If you EXPECT, what does that say about you?

Is that a form of hope?

Let's ask ourselves today (and it's really hard, I can almost not do it) each of you, what would YOU reasonably expect Christmas to be like in a maximum security prison? Even trying to think about it is hard, for me? what about you? Seems like that's a question you can dash off a facile answer to or you can really think about, what do you think??

The Yellow Wallpaper our first Women in Literature foray into reading a work together, is now up, it's a short story, and it was just pointed out to me by a very wise person that IT, too, is about a "prison," of a sort, we will really enjoy reading that one, a short story entirely online, talk about good WRITING!

Join us there, if you dare, a Halloween Treat (or is it a Trick?) hahaahah

So what would YOU expect Christmas to be like in a maximum security prison for women??

ginny

PS: To easily view the most recent (in fact, ALL the posts here) look up in the upper right hand corner of your screen, scroll all the way up to the very top of the page, and look for the words PRINT PAGE. You will not actually PRINT by hitting that but it WILL show you the entire discussion and you can easily enjoy everybody's thoughts in one piece?

ginny

I could write the direct explanation but simpler I think to say that it means really that it is an easing of the pain and emotion to openly admit it and talk about it.Does talking of your experience here make you feel less hurt. I surely hope so.

I for one have this huge problem about detailing my sexual abuse, can only do it at all because no one here really knows me.I have never shared my experiences on a face to face basis, and doubt I ever could.Your honesty, Ginger, is a comfort to me.

What would I expect of Christmas in a womens prison. Nothing I guess. No expectation, no hope.It is in my nature to look for good, and I would, but fear it would not be found there.It is so difficult to come to terms with the idea that another human has the right to punish me no matter how much I may deserve that punishment.

Dont have a lot of knowledge of Andrea Yates, but I do feel strongly that how we treat imprisoned women should not be about the severity of their crime.Of course it would effect the length of sentence.it shouldn't mean however that we deny them hope.

Christmas in prison, is still after all a celebration of Christs birth, if you deny that celebration to people, how can you honestly be compassionate.

Anneo

"The quality of mercy is not strained..." This is REALLY becoming a fascinating discussion, thank you, Anneo, for that wonderful post, is there no line then? I mean personally, just as individuals, not as the penal system or correctional system, is there no line we can draw and still consider ourselves compassionate? Can you be compassionate in ONE case and not in the other? Wonderful conversation.

And THEN on the subject of penal reform which several of you mentioned (if I don't stop here, I'll never get out of town but it's SOOO intriguing) how about the famous Gilbert and Sullivan song, "My object all sublime,

I shall achieve in time,
To make the punishment fit the crime,
The punishment fit the crime.

I'll go look that old song up: we'll need it, so we have several new considerations here this morning, many thanks!

ginny

Good morning, everyone. I am feeling very sad today, and do not feel constrained when it comes to sharing this with you. My WREX writers and I are a small but very close group of friends who share a love of writing. I say "my" because I alone hold the responsibility of keeping this group together. All of their writing is sent to me. I collate all of it and send it out to all the writers and anyone else who wants to read it every two weeks. I have done this for many years now, and, when very tired, have twice tried to find a replacement to do what I do. It's a real job and time-consuming, which can often bring complaints when a mistake is made. No one else will do this job except me, so these writers have become "mine" and they and their writing group my reponsibiity.

For a long time now, WREX has been besieged by illness. One woman writer is working bravely through having had breast cancer and surgery for that early this year. Right now one man is struggling to recover from serious leukemia. A woman writer is doing her best to recover from pancreatic cancer and the surgery necessary to help her. Both are going through chemotherapy right now.

Tomorrow a writer is having prostate surgery, and last night I learned that a dear, dear friend, whom I've known in WREX for many years, is to have a kidney removed next month. This news about threw me when I read her post just after midnight last night, and today I'm trying to adjust to it and tell myself that the strength we writers have individually and as a close-knit group will bring a day when all of us are fine.

GINGER, brave, strong, wonderful GINGER. Thank you for posting what you have. It pleases me so much to see pictures of you and your smile occasionally like the one of you and Robby Iadeluca that was in Photos Then and Now yesterday. I will be so happy to meet you at the Virginia Bash -- if I get there. I feel sometimes as if I were pushing my luck.

What would I expect at Christmas if I were in prison? Not much that I didn't make for myself.

I was 10 years old when I went into the Children's Hospital for a very complicated muscle transplant operation. I remember being alone and very, very scared, quite a distance from my home with visitors allowed only once a week, facing I didn't know what. I was there in that hospital four weeks in a cast which went from my armpits around my torso down my left leg and around my foot. Helpless even to turn over by myself on the canvas sling attached above the mattress on the bed it hung above. From there I went to a nursing home where I spent another four weeks, alone and even farther away from home and anyone who really cared for me, seldom seeing any of them.

The only time I felt weak was when somebody openly felt sorry for me. I couldn't afford their pity or self pity then or any time since, even when my mother died two years later, and when one by one I lost people in my family and my life that I loved. If I read self pity into the topic piece, it is because I know what weakness it can bring. Robin Cullen and prisoners like her can't afford self pity and weakness either, whether it's Christmas or just an ordinary day.

From the number of things I've read about Andrea Yates I've concluded that she killed her children when she was undergoing a psychotic episode that is similar to what my brain-injured elder son has. I watched my son, and helped him, through many psychotic episodes during the five years I supported and took care of him. Andrea Yates is given exactly the same medication that my son must take. While in a psychotic episode, the victim loses all touch with reality. He or she literally "loses" his or her mind. Since I know what such things can do and know also that post natal depression combined with this can worsen a really awful condition, I do not feel anger about the terrible murders of Andrea Yates's children, and I'm very, very sorry that her mental illness wasn't treated properly by the doctors she had.

So many crimes are caused by insanity, sometimes induced temporarily by drugs and alcohol. Mental illness is still not as "respectable" as physical illness is in this country, so more often than not it goes untreated. I long for the day when mental illness becomes as acceptable when it comes to preventive measures as physical illness is, and the day when cures and not just treatment of symptoms are found.

Society's attitudes about mental illness hold back the kinds of research which are necessary. Let's face it, there are times when all of us have been mentally ill -- depressed, perhaps uncontrolled at times like the man Carolyn mentioned who shook his child and the woman in the "Yellow Wallpaper" story.

My experience in life is different from that of most of you here. I suffered a life-threatening illness very early in life. I survived somehow, and have carried that illness, which has affected everything I do and have done in my life, around with me nearly all my life. All of my attitudes and many of my opinions have been colored by that. I have spent a lifetime compensating for what was taken away from me, and learned very early that I could not expect more than what I had unless I created it for myself.

Only someone like Sea_Bubble, who has had to live much the same way I have because she had that same illness early in her life, too, with similar effects, can really understand what it's like and why I say and do what I do. Only someone who has been in prison as Robin Cullen was can understand what it's like for her. I relate my own experiences to hers to try to understand. That is all any of us can do.

Mal

I too suffered an illness at birth and until age eleven. I have some loss of mobility, some complications and problems that I have dealt with all my life. This has also colored my life and my expectations although to see me, you would not expect any issues.

I lost my entire family of nine people between 1990 and 2000. I am now alone in this world and yes I am chronically depressed as the doctors call it. I am also that one in whatever number who doesn't respond to medication. In fact I have strange reactions to most of it and have a notation in all my medical charts to be aware that I will start to become awake and aware during operations. I am simply myself as all of us ultimately are.

I mention this to tell another side of the story, we all have one and if we are going to treat each other humanely whether it is a prison of mobility, emotion or steel walls; we are going to have to make changes. These changes have been happening piecemeal all over the world, thru-out time and will continue to move forward as we do.

Today,these changes require stronger education, new employment ideas and real,(not only simulated); understanding that no one person and no one religion, country or style of life is better then another, just different.

I've often thought that Roosevelt's idea of a Civilian Conservation Corps. would be a good idea again. I also feel that better understanding of mental illness is a must along with fair and humane and RESPONSIBLE treatment being mandatory! We need responsible education in all its forms, (sexual, employment, social, standard); if we are going to change anything in this century or the next.

A note about Japanese educational expectations being different then ours. We teach the way to solve a problem and expect the student to only use our procedures. In a Japanese class, the student is given the problem and asked to find a solution. Which is better? Perhaps a combination would be better then the Western method used now.

As to what I would expect in prison. Not much as I would withdraw into myself out of fear and terror. Knowing that I was among people who were capable of many things and I am including the administration as well as the prisoners in this. I would probably be cationic in my terror.

I have read of the people such as the Southern sheriff who makes a point to have the men under him wear pink underwear, live in tents and have bad food, and he's boasting of it. I have also read about the prison system and the people who use it.

Now admittedly everything I know is probably sensationalized, but that’s the foreknowledge I would carry in and I probably wouldn't come out, at least not entirely. Christmas, What’s that?

That's where we differ, ANGELFACE. If I were in prison I wouldn't withdraw into myself, I'd fight to keep my mind and myself intact.

About your comment about Japanese educational expectations: My grandson is in his first year at the University of North Carolina where he is majoring in math. He hasn't been told how to solve problems, he's been asked to create them, and has come up with a brand new formula never devised before. With the blessing of his UNC professor, he is working with someone at M. I. T. to perfect it.

Mal

Edit: I have a cousin who taught at MIT. He is now working for the government and as a genius he is very odd. Every single one I've met has been odd in some way. David loves practical jokes and is always playing them on someone. He has been married seven times, hmmmm!?

My statement about the sheriff isn't that he is so harsh, but that his mindset is so fixed, as in concrete. And yes Mal, at this stage in my life, prison would be the last thing I'd need. I would just withdraw; probably be happier for it. My fighting days are done.

ANGELFACE, at the time of my life when I was as traumatized as you are right now I thought my fighting days were over, too. Time showed me I was wrong. It might work that way for you, too.

I posted what I did about my grandson, by the way, for no other reason than to show you that educational methods in this country are and have been changing. Cheer up, ANGELFACE.

Mal

These are the only ones I have experienced.

Mental illness now accounts for many of our prison inmates. All around the world Governments have emptied out their mental hospitals and set loose people who cannot care for themselves. Its been proven time and time again. I know a lot about mental illness and I have seen a person in an acute Psychotic episode. They have no idea what they are doing and truly believe the thoughts in their heads such as being followed by an assassin or having microchips put in their heads by the CIA and being followed by CIA assassins. Every time I see a mentally ill person holed up and the police swat team outside - usually on TV I weep and when they often shoot the person who is often armed ( thinking to protect themselves) my heart breaks in two. I have spoken to many patients and the ones with severe bi polar disorder or schizophrenia often want to be back in a sheltered environment. I remember one group of patients housed in a hospital in the most serene and beautiful grounds begging our Govt not to close down their home. Mans inhumanity to man! Many of these people are amongst the homeless because when they get sick they cause havoc in the neighbourhood and get thrown out of their apartments etc. We have had several high profile murders here in recent years where families have begged authorities not to let their loved ones out of the secure wards too early and they have been discharged only to go home and murder a parent. There have been law suits regarding these patients against the Hospital authorities. Many of these sick people end up in prisons for murder and many lesser crimes.

A lot of inmates have a story and I bet that drink drugs or mental illness account for a good proportion of inmates.

One of the things that I find most interesting about older people is their stories. We have a sampling here in this forum. By the time you get to sixty, whether you realize it or not, you have had many experiences, losses, loves, achievements, puzzles to solve, places to live. The list goes on and on.

I teach young people, 18-24 or so. Those who have experienced some of the more difficult aspects of life, even though they are still young, are more mature and better able to confront other problems. The maturity level is very different. The only good thing I can say about suffering is that it does often teach people to be more open with others, more compassionate, less self-centered. I wish that we all could escape suffering, but it is a built-in component of life.

Angelface, I too have lost many people in the past ten years. And Mal has mentioned those in her WREX group who are having medical problems. It is one of the difficult parts about growing older. If one continues to live, one will lose loved ones who are older and, if one lives long enough, even those who are younger. My Dad lived into his ninety-first year, and in his eighties was burying people far younger than he was. The loss of close friends really hit him toward the end of his life. But he kept making friends anyway, friends who were considerably younger than he was, decades younger.

Mental illness deserves to be treated just as physical illness is, with the best in medical care and attempts to make break-throughs.

My son's best friend in high school was a young man who got perfect scores on his SATs. Every college he applied to begged him to come. He went to Stanford because of the urging of others. He really wanted to go to the Univ. of Michigan where his mom had gone.

After a year at Stanford, he transferred to Michigan where he was happy. And then, during his sophomore year, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. He heard voices coming from the TV; he thought that God was giving him assignments over the radio. He had no idea whether something was "real" or delusional. He has had the very best medical care and two loving parents who have tried everything available there is to try. And he is getting worse. Such a shame. His older sister was also schizophrenic. She took her own life.

Maryal (not Malryn who is here too--read our names carefully!)

Maryal - such tragedy for those parents.

Carolyn

Life was never promised to be easy, life was promised to have both the good and the bad to make us more compassionate and giving. We do not know why and perhaps never will, perhaps there are no answers.

What I am saying is that eduction of many kinds is needed desperately here and in other parts of the world. With the easier modes of transportation and computers shrinking our world, we can no longer shrug it off as someone's else's job or someone else's place.

Whether I'm depressed, Mal's cynical or Ginger hurting, as terrible as it sounds, it doesn't change the way the world is. We have to do that.

ANGELFACE, I ask you humbly and with all the respect I have not to presuppose what I am. You do not know me except through posts, and there is no possible way you can know what condition I am in when I post here or in other discussions.

I tried to explain this morning that I'm sad and troubled by what has been, and is, going on with people in WREX. Now I'll tell you about me in a few sentences I just posted elsewhere.

I'm not cynical, ANGELFACE, I'm sick. I spent an ill summer with very painful Cellulitis in my weak leg, and after that I developed an infection from my brace, which has caused me even more pain and is not responding to antibiotics yet; this is minor, but it is part of what has been happening to people I care for and me. I didn't sleep much last night because I was so upset after I read the post about the WREX writer after midnight last night. I had no business posting here or anywhere else today, since I am full to the brim with worry and concern about my friends, whom I care so much about.

You have mentioned education several different times. Now I'll ask you the question I ask myself: What are you doing about this? Who are you helping to educate?

Mal

I am not doing enough thats for sure. What I am doing is helping teach adults to read thru the Literacy Council. I wish it could be more, but time and the lack of any viable transportation constrains me.

I will no longer mention any names as I have no right and in that you are correct, what I meant to suggest was that even tho we have different issues and problems, the world still goes on each day. Forgive me if I have caused you any concern.

of course you can use names and make assumptions, just as we will about you. True we may often miss the mark, but the joy is in the trying.

Would that we could see ourselves as others see us, as someone wiser than me once said.

Anneo

When a person is in prison because they willfully harmed another... in whatever way, whether robbery, murder, etc. my compassion is stretched. When someone goes to prison because they used bad judgement, without malice, my heart goes out to them. How many time have I used bad judgement and thankfully, so far anyway, have not managed to have it addressed by a court. Love and compassion can make life better. Does it rehabilitate prisoners not to allow them to celebrate Christmas? Should they expect celebrations? No, not realistically, but could it hurt? could it make them more criminal? more unlawful?

Lou

Many of those in prison outside of the mentally ill, abused and neglected groups are guilty of not knowing how to make a decision or to stand up against the popular line. They want people to like them as we do ourselves or failing that, to fear them as we will sooner or later. I think this group would probably never enter prison again or else would become the hangers-on or assistance to those with more charisma, those that give them a place of belonging however poor it may be.

I'm not saying that they need television cable and their selection of sports channels, I am saying that you can't "scare someone straight."

I think simple nourishing food and the expectation and education of responsible behavior and decision making as well as employment education and programs such as training puppies for the blind or working with animals should be continued and even enlarged. Teaching and giving responsibility and expectations within a reasonable limit has been around for millennium. Expectations, genuine praise and perks such as holidays are all parts of this.

The mentally ill needed care before they were allowed to get to this point and the abused and those who failed to thrive and have no connection to us as people also need education and different kinds of care. Shouldn't it be a warning sign that many medical experts are warning of increases in psychopaths and psychotic behavior and in even younger patients? Shouldn't we be concerned? and why isn't this a major topic? Is it really true and why? or is it only sensationalism?

Why are these topics ignored or placated by almost everyone? Should they be important to us? Or doesn't it seem like something we should know about?

Anneo, thank you.

Good questions, ANGELFACE.

Neither my brain-injured son or I had money enough to pay for the services of a psychiatrist, and it was my experience with him that unless you have money, the kind of free or low-cost treatment a mentally ill person can get is less than ten minutes with a psychiatrist, who spends part of that time writing prescriptions. I spent three years trying to find a doctor who would listen to me as my son's advocate when he was unable to speak for himself, and to spend time talking to him when he could. It's not easy when there's no insurance and you're poor.

At the same time I did this, I fought the U.S. government to try and get a disability allowance for my son, so he'd have Medicare and not receive charity care in a hospital, which consists primarily, as I saw it, of a bed, food, and someone to hand out medicine. The government has to have all kinds of proof of disability, especially mental disability. Mental illness is hard to prove unless an M.D. says in writing that it exists. Sometimes it's hard to find a doctor in a free clinic who will do this.

When the government finally gave Rob disability payments and Medicare, I found a really good psychiatrist through a psychologist I'd met, and my son received better treatment in the hospital and out, and some real attention from his doctor.

We have to realize, too, that many mentally ill people refuse treatment. It is often very hard to find legal ways to force them to get it, and it is extremely, extremely difficult to put anyone in a locked ward for the mentally ill in a hospital against his or her will. It has to be done through the court, and that can be a long, involved procedure sometimes.

Mal

But to ignore it and avoid it as we as a people have been doing simply because it is so difficult and there is no money in it is what has brought us to where we are today. We need a totally new mindset in our future doctors and practitioners.

When I began to seek help for my daughter's medical issues, no one wanted to go beyond what I could pay them. The school was interested in testing until a "doctor" told them after viewing her thru the classroom door's window for a few seconds, that "she was only 'acting out.' That some teenage girls did things like this for attention." This "doctor" went on to head youth services for the mentally ill in the state clinic!

I finally was able to get medicare coupons. Since I was working at the time, I had to go through rigorous paperwork only to see the doctors unwilling to go beyond the scope of payment allowed. And in each circumstance, three months would pass between the required second opinions.

In the meantime, she was getting worse and the symptoms began multiplying. Her school sent her to discipline because she insisted on asking the teachers to repeat their words and to use a magnifying glass to read by. When she complained of odors in gym and had problems not throwing up; she was threatened with suspension. Remember they were still going by the idea that she was only "acting out."

When she turned 18, I was able to get her into adult medical help through Social Services. They sent her to a neurologist who immediately put her in the hospital, prescribed medicine,(steroids); to shrink the tumor and operated early that next week. She died of a stroke right after a sixteen hour surgery and I was sent both a bill for $86,000.00 for hospital services only and a letter from the school demanding her gym clothes return or she wouldn't get her grades for that year!

Later, a teacher came by with a basket of fruit and said that the teachers were feeling bad but that SHE had told them it wasn't their fault as no one could have known it was a brain tumor. My father was there and quickly got her out of the house before I began to throw that fruit at her head!

A young girl who at been at the hospital at the same time, with the same type of tumor went home later that week. Her affluent parents had seen the signs, got her expert medical attention and prompt service and she came home to live a regular life.

My daughter was killed by bureaucracy and it is that same mindset that is slowly destroying the rest of our populace without money and influence.

ANGELFACE, you've been through a terrible mill, and I truly sympathize and offer my condolences.

The disregard of the needs of sick people who have neither money nor insurance is a huge problem. I wish I dared to suggest to you that you find someone else to do this fight for you until your anger eases, and time has let you heal from the awful experience you had. Surely even just thinking about it must upset you.

I've known other cases where symptoms caused by a brain tumor have been diagnosed as some sort of psychiatric or behavior problem. I'm going to ask someone I know in the medical field if doctors are told today to follow many methods and routes of diagnosis before they make a final determination. Doing so would save many lives, it seems to me.

Mal

Both Robin Cullen and Mal’s stories are very moving testimonies of the circumstances faced by people who abuse alcohol and then get behind the wheel of a car or truck. They both tell of the tragedies that drinking and driving can cause. The tragedy is for both any victims of their stupidity and for themselves.

However, I see the piece by Collen as more than just a statement against driving drunk. It also shows how hypercritical the justice system really is in America. It is all about money. The lack of presents for Christmas is not about punishment but about money. Note how she mentioned that there was a backlog in the money order system. When the system did provide ‘gifts to purchase’ the items were at inflated price.

America’s ‘Correctional’ system is all about money.

GINNY ANN, I'm curious and confused. Aren't the prisons in the United States and the prisoners in them paid for by tax money? Aren't we having trouble finding the money to keep all the prisons we have open? In what way is the Correctional System "all about money" if it's paid for by our taxes?

Mal

It is still about education. Until a concerted effort is made to change the mind set of these people in charge of large groups of people such as prisoners, mentally ill, poor or misguided people, nothing will change and these same complaints will be voiced repeatedly. You need to begin at the source with both the younger people in the schools and with the law in making new rules about old assumptions.

The fact that I was working didn't matter to those doctors I saw. The fact that I was getting state help did and for what ever reason or concern, they were only going to go as far as the aid stipulated and no further. It is the same I believe with the prison system, they are following the preferences of a large group of the populace. An eye for an eye sort of mentality.

The fact that our drug companies were selling drugs, needed drugs in Africa for exorbitant prices, only changed "publicly" when world attention was focused on them. There are many other items such as the cigarette companies windfalls in Asia that are ignored. This is fueling some of the rage behind the protesters at the world summits and is ignored by the mainstream press. We are not the only ones doing this, it is worldwide, but we have a reputation, (we think); for truth, honesty and justice. Why are we surprised that only we seem to be aware of it?

Mal, on a personal note, this happened over fourteen years ago. I'm sorry, I will probably never "get over it." This has colored my thoughts since then and my convictions and probably always will. The fact that someone I loved died because of a bureaucracy that is still killing other people's spouses and children both angers and saddens me. The fact that there is no clear singular person to take the rage makes it worse. We need education for lack of a better word in our youth. We need to imprint both responsibility and empathy in them again and in 'our' I am not only referring to American youth as it has never been only an American issue!

but it is still important and still usable (spendable); it isn't really regulated. The more that you comply to the reigning assumptions, the more money. you have. I don't think it is a case of theft as much as corporate accountability. We want this type of behavior or it wouldn't be approval and rewarded.

I have heard that at our local county jail everything beyond the minimum basics costs an inmate money. If someone on the outside hasn't gotten a money order and placed it in his/her account, they can't buy extas such as sugar for their coffee or ketchup for their hamburger. The place is cold temperture wise and if the inmate didn't wear warm clothing going in, they have to purchase it in the jail. No one can bring them in a sweater or thermal shirt.

The inmates have to wear a sandle type footwear. But if they want to play basketball, they need to purchase jail shoes so they don't injure themselves.

I have heard that they use Ramen Noodles (at out local grocer cost about 10 cents) that cost 50 cents a package as 'money' when they play poker or other card games.

that Christmas packages from the prison store were so expensive or that they were the only ones allowed. There are severe restrictions on any kind of package coming into a prison. Prisoners' families would not be allowed to send packages from outside. The danger of contraband being introduced into prison is huge. Thus family members and friends who visit pass through detectors and are searched.

The exorbitant price, even if the packages contained more than the author describes, is typical of any government controlled agency. The federal government often pays far more for services than any business would. Same goes for equipment.

What you see below was excerpted from HERE. Scroll down to see what the former prisoners say about this.

"There, the state has recently filed a case against a group of eight women, current and former inmates of the maximum- security York Correctional Institution in Niantic, Conn., who with the help of bestselling novelist Wally Lamb have published a collection of essays about their early lives and prison time, "Couldn't Keep It To Myself: Testimonies From Our Imprisoned Sisters." The fruits of a writing workshop Mr. Lamb teaches at the prison, the collection was planned as a privately printed gift to inmates' families and friends - until Lamb's publisher, HarperCollins, offered to make a book of it.

"On paper, the state's case against the contributors is purely about money: State law says Connecticut should recover from inmates the cost of their incarceration. But the York defendants, their lawyer, and Lamb say their book proceeds are so small that the state must have more complex motives for pursuing them. Some hold that the Commissioner of Corrections referred the case to the attorney general because some of the essays were critical of the prison. Others see it as evidence that the system is more devoted to punishment than to rehabilitation."

Why are we trying to assign blame to the prisoners or to the administration?

No one has said the women or prisoners in general are blameless and no one is saying the government has ever been more then grey.

What we are saying is that there are the ideas available and unused. Where are the discussions of solutions. This is getting to be just another case of she said/ she says. We're going around and around and around.

to criminals making money from writing of their exploits, such as the great train robbers for example, are we really going to rehabilitate prisoners and then punish them for success in the area we have helped them.If one has served the time, is it not further punishment to then be expected to pay for their own incarceration.Muddled thinking in deed.

How is all this about money, when its taxpayers money. Well we all know its the squeaky wheel which gets the grease, and here in Australia at least the mind boggles at the misuse of the taxpayers dollar.When applying for government grants here, it is all about wording and knowledge of the system. I really do agree that attitudes have to change.That will be a long slow process, though.

Anneo

ANGELFACE, I think there should be changes in various areas of our government, but before I went out and tried to do anything I'd need many more substantial facts than I see here. In this case, it would, of necessity, require a study of the women's prison system in the United States that possibly would have to involve many people and a good length of time. "She told me of her experiences, and she told me of her experiences" just isn't enough to force changes under the legal system we have. Even just to change public opinion, there must be a foundation of facts.

If we had the small mountain of accurate information and facts that would be needed, what sort of changes would you propose?

Mal

Mal; I started out to write a long post and then simply stopped. The way for the public to get involved is simple. Learn what needs to be done, whether in a local, state or country matter and then find a way that you can play a part in doing it. Then if you want, and again I am speaking of the general rather then personal you; you can go on to more world and planet issues. The point is to do something!

Education is simply key, both for our youth and for those in need.

I put my time and money into local areas because that is where I feel I can make a difference. I have branched out by writing letters and petitions involving certain issues I believe strongly in. But those topics have been carefully researched.

Yes, I believe our prisons are in a mess and desperately need to be revised and yes all of us need to be concerned and able to help in some way. That is a matter that will take years to rectify. Does that mean we should stay out of it? Thats a private matter.

Our prisons are much more humane than that described by the writer in this story. There are family visits and a wonderful lunch on Christmas Day. Women Prisoners can have their kids in for the day. Of course some women would not be allowed family as they have broken prison rules and had privileges revoked. I know the food is generally very nutritious and plentiful in the prisons. The medium security prisons having their own gardens and farms in a lot of cases.

I really want to thank EVERYBODY here for their wonderful comments and stories and contributions to this discussion!! I am so impressed with what you’ve all added and each of the points you all saw in the piece, one of our most successful Topic Tuesdays I believe, many thanks!

I think we have so many factors that you all can add to the mix here: different countries, different prisons in different states, some of you have actual experience being incarcerated, or had a loved one in prison or know of somebody who was, some of you worked in prisons, some of you, like me, have no association, but all opinions are of the greatest value.

A quote I like on the PBS pages is “All significant social change arises from people sitting down to talk about what matters to them.” --Utne Reader, August 2002.

I really like that and think that we may make a difference here.

I spent a glorious afternoon yesterday, reading the print outs of your thoughts, sitting at the grape stand waiting for the customers to finish picking in this gorgeous fall weather with the changing leaves and the smell of grapes. The breeze blew (your papers went everywhere so my response will not be in order) but it was such a joy to read the myriad approaches to the subject, I am so impressed with you. I believe our discussion of Couldn’t Keep it to Myself AND the PBS Program Clubs What I Want My Words to do to You will be incredible successes. Here is a link "Mistakes" by Eve Ensler who says in part:

I was honored — and I mean this — privileged — to experience the depth of their seeking and reflection. I was moved and changed by their courage and willingness to take full responsibility for their lives and deeds.

There is the mistake. It is one moment. It is in the past. It is ruined. It cannot be changed.

Then — there is the woman.

Powerful stuff, but the POV programs always are. We are honored to be the online site for this discussion!

Ok first off, let me clear something up, this excerpt, like all the others, is taken from a larger work, which is just too long to type. I do want to say that the original does begin with a Catholic Mass for Christmas, with Robin Cullen the lector, and what she somewhat dispassionately observes about those in the congregation.

so the point is that no person, at least in this piece, is being denied the Church on Christmas. I’ll just speak of Christmas this time rather than any other religious observances I am sure they have.

I thought her remarks on the bags of pretzels as gifts were sort of the point of the piece, you may not agree, and those of you who can get the book will see for yourselves, but I did not really see self pity, but rather a dispassionate telling of what WAS. We might want to read stuff into that: WHY is she telling US that? Or is that what occurred to her, because she did expect something.

The question I have is why not? To me, a person who sees symbols in everything, those little insignificant bags of “things,” might have symbolized that somebody cared about them: love. That they were not forgotten? If I were in that situation I would have thought so and yes I would have “expected” or maybe “hoped” is a better word, for something, if these women are beyond hope, then we’re talking about something that I think Wally Lamb IS talking about, different.

I always expect: that may be a personality defect?

To buy yourself something is not the same, unless you bought it for another inmate, but (at those high prices: I DO understand no gifts can be brought in by reading what happens to every inmate when a visitor leaves, I left THAT out also?) but still, I agree with many of you that something “ought” or “should” be done, because….I can remember (you will now see how bizarre my thinking is) my youngest son, quite a young child, got money one birthday, I am now recalling my parents gave it to him, it was quite a lot as I remember, $50, he was about 9, so that he could personally buy himself some particular thing he had long wanted and which he had wanted to select for himself. We set out to the Mall in great excitement and on the way INTO the Mall (which we found out when the child was about to pay for the item) he had dropped the money and lost it on the way in. A crisp new $50 dollar bill.

In tears he looked the the length and breadth of the parking lot, the car, everything. It was gone.

I bought him the present, tho I really regretted the loss of that money, and having to tell his grandparents. I told him that whoever found that money needed it worse than he did, and to THEM it would symbolize God’s love, and so I believe it did.

We spent quite a lot of time speculating over who might find it and what it might mean.

So that’s the way I personally think? Because things have happened to me like that in my own past where I “took it” for a symbol, albeit not such a large amount, sometimes as little as a dollar, and it may not have been, at all? But I “took it” as one and I think everybody, yes, even Andrea Yates, deserves at least that much: the hope of being cared about.

(I have argued about Andrea Yates so much in the last 5 days I almost never want to hear her name again, one thing for sure: NOBODY sees it the way I did, so my consciousness is DEFINITELY being raised). Haahhaha Now that’s MY take on the bags of pretzels hanging on the jailhouse cells, but MY take is only that, we re all coming from different places.

Barbara and I argued over Andrea Yates till she brought out Abigail, Sid, and the Alligators, do you know them? THEY will be on a future Topic Tuesday, as soon as she can get home and I can beg her to type it up.

You will LOVE them and what it says about each of us…now…on to YOUR wonderful posts, just wanted to thrust my own 2 cents in there!

ginny

Regarding the lost money.

My sisters husband was out of work. They had a young baby and were surviving only on my sisters salary as a part time hospital theatre cleaning supervisor. It was a very nasty windy cold day. They were going to the Supermarket and parked outside the store. The street was near deserted and then my sisters eye was caught by something fluttering in the gutter. It was a $20 note. She looked all around but there was not another person to be seen within calling distance. Certainly there was nobody frantically looking for money. That $20 meant that they got enough groceries for the week. She did not have enough money left to feed the little family properly after all the bills were paid. My sister called that $20 a miracle.

Carolyn that is EXACTLY what I'm talking about! I, too, looked for the owner of the $1.00 bill I found that time, (can you imagine?) but it sure felt like one to me, too, thank you for that!

If I can get thru this post, the vineyard is full of happy pickers, hopefully some of this will make some sense.

Ginger, bless your heart, thank YOU for that searing story, I, like Anneo, wonder at your gift of hope after what you’ve been thru, we appreciate you, very much.

Maryal, ditto, ditto, ditto, thank you for being so open and honest and I also agree with you that we, the folks here on SeniorNet, have lived thru SUCH life experiences, that’s what makes our conversations so rich and full of learning experiences. THANK you for those beautiful posts.

Angelface, also ditto, bless your heart, what a terrible story, naturally you have not gotten over it, who would. Thank you so much for sharing that painful experience with us, I am so sorry.

Malryn, thank YOU again, this time for that fabulous article, I can hardly believe it. One thing pointed out in the book is that the “Son of Sam” laws prohibit people profiting from their crimes, I think that link needs to go in both of the upcoming headings, many thanks. This sentence, “Others see it as evidence that the system is more devoted to punishment than to rehabilitation,” is something I think we can surely discuss at more length.

Ginny Ann thank you for those reports about conditions in your local facility, I think we might all benefit from hearing the differences and talking about which seem effective, this is all new to me and almost unbelievable.

We also have another person joining us who has a career in working with prisoners and I’m very much looking forward to the range of experience here.

MacRuth, I am so chuffed about your experience in this field and really look forward to hearing more, thank you for being here.

Lou 2, I agree, I think we can get a super discussion going over compassion: what it IS and what it is not, I hope, and I agree with you: could it hurt? And your point about bad judgment, you can see above that Eve Ensler, the playwright, is saying much of the same thing. We all make mistakes, some of them quite serious, and you can’t help reflect in these stories Wally Lamb has in his book, how luck or poor choices or mistakes seemed to play such a part in their lives. Not sure if “luck” is something people actually believe in, that might make another good discussion: one thing for sure, we won’t lack for discussion topics!

more….

I was 16 years old, and had spent the previous year working as a housemaid on a Longreach property. Going there had been an escape, had helped me hide from that better forgotten and allowed hope for a better future.

During the year, I hd been "mothered" by the overseers wife and leaving her was one of my few regrets. She prepared me a travel parcel, for my long train ride back to civilization.The boss dropped me at the railway station and I sat there with my luggage, anticipating.

Eventually I boarded the train and got settled, and went to open my parcel.The train was already heading to Brisbane when I realized I had left my precious cargo on the seat, at the station.
Forty-five years on, I still feel that sense of loss, not so much for the contents but for the hope that package contained.The hope that I was loved and treasured and missed enough, to have received tangible evidence.

Many things since have brought me love, none have taken away that pain, because I can never be that dependent on a parcel again.Robin Cullen will have many wonderful christmases which can never erase the prison ones, and I suspect ginnys son will never have another $50 dollars that offers more.Why is that?

Thanks Caroline for that little story, I hope my box became a little miracle for someone else.

Anneo

Compassion We can have compassion without being an enabler. For instance we can have compassion for a drug addict or an alcoholic without supplying them with money or the means to continue their habit. My daughter and I have often talked about what would happen if one of the grands got on drugs. My daughter said she would go clean the house and supply food. I said I would not clean the house but give food. I would be hoping for the authorities to step in and force the grand to get help because of living in dirty conditions etc.

I always told my kids if they got in trouble with the law and I knew they were guilty I would not get them an expensive lawyer to get them off. However I would be there for them for moral support, visit them in prison if they were sentenced, and be there for them when they got out. I saw kids whose parents were able to get them off offences with an expensive lawyer or even in one case spirit them out the country before the law got hold of them. I do not agree with this sort of enabling behaviour. I believe we learn from cause and effect. None of my kids got in trouble with the law. They had to be responsible - they knew I would not save them from themselves. Therefore they got taxis if they were going to drink or organised non drinking drivers. The kids and their friends had a roster for non drinking drivers. I never had to worry once I saw they were organised that a policeman would be knocking on my door late one night. On New Years Eve etc they would go into the city in Taxi buses.

Carolyn

This was sobering and also enlightening. None of us asked for parental loans and the times my parents babysat, it was an agreed on decision arranged in advance and few in number.

We had been raised to become self sufficient adults and once we left home we were expected to become such.

CAROLYN, I suggest to you that if one of your grandchildren was hooked on drugs you don't know how you'd react or what you do, no matter what you promise yourself now you might do.

I urge anyone in that situation not to waste time thinking about cleaning the addicted person's house or taking them food. First, get yourself into Al Anon and learn how to take care of you; then get on the phone and call AA or NA, and work hard to get someone over to the person you know to talk to them and try to get them in the program. That is the best, in fact, the only thing you can do that would be effective or worthwhile.

Don't waste your time, either, by trying to talk to the addict, close relative or not. You haven't been there; the person you contact through AA or NA has and knows what to do.

There are criminals, and there are criminals. I do not consider Robin Cullen or Andrea Yates criminals, regardless what they did. Anybody who abuses alcohol and gets in a car and drives it has a problem. That problem is alcoholism. That is what should be addressed first, not punishment for the crime committed because of the addiction. That should come later when the one responsible for the crime is sober and knows what's going on.

Incarceration doesn't get anybody addicted to drugs of any kind, including alcohol, to AA, NA, or treatment and rehabilitation. I don't have statistics, but it seems to me that incarceration can easily lead to more abuse of alcohol and more abuse of drugs, if only in the way that the resentful abuser when released says, "I'll show you," and heads for the nearest liquor store or dealer the minute he or she sets foot on free ground.

Andrea Yates had a history of mental illness. She was in no way equipped to take care of many noisy, demanding children, and she was suffering from post natal depression. The woman was terribly, terribly sick, and she was out of her mind. What's a criminal? To my mind, she doesn't fit the description.

In my lifetime I've suffered severe disappointments, more than I could ever describe here or that anyone would believe. When the bag of pretzels wasn't hung on my door, I said, "Oh, well" and got on with it. I learned a long time ago to expect from people only what they were able to give. If I were in prison, I'd expect nothing because I'd know that's what I was to "them" -- nothing, a number, nothing, a parasite on society, nothing, and because "they" didn't care whether I was alive or dead, they would have nothing to give.

I'm pleased to see that Robin Cullen has a painting business, and I'm glad the other women mentioned in the article I found have jobs and seem to be doing well. I've known some ex-convicts. Some make it; some don't. I hope some of these women will.

Mal

Mal from experience with my father and his alcohol addiction. No one has ever been able to get him to go to AA. Not even his little kids begging him and crying at his knee. You can't force them. I would always give a grandchild food. I would do it for anyone who had nothing to eat. I would not judge why they had nothing to eat.

You're right, CAROLYN. No one can force an addicted person to go to AA or NA, but someone in the program has a far better chance of convincing another addict to go to one meeting with him or her than anyone else, mainly because they've been where the addict is and know what's going on, including all the excuses for not joining a 12 Step Program. People in the program will then work to get the addict to another meeting and another until the program "takes". Addicted people in the program have a sponsor, and that sponsor is "on their case" 24 hours a day to help keep them sober and straight.

Sober members of the family don't understand what AA and NA members know from experience. Relatives are emotionally involved, while representatives from the programs are not.

It's not a question of refusing to give food to the addict, it's a question of what going into the addict's house and seeing and talking to him or her will do to the sober relative. That's why I say go to Al Anon first and learn how to take care of yourself. One of the first things advised is to detach yourself emotionally from the addict, even if that means staying away from him or her.

Much pain can be avoided if you go to Al Anon and talk with other people who have the same problems with an addicted member of the family that you do, and learn how they have worked through these problems and feel better and cope with the situation. Another good program is ACOA, Adult Children of Alcoholics.

Addiction is a family disease. The first one you must think of and take care of is you. I think Maryal would agree.

Mal

Santa as was the big cheese so to speak Christmas tree and all the trimings. Hey whatever happened to the real meaning of christmas I wonder? I do so Love it when I get a Christmas card with the Lamb and the lion laying together as that is what it is all about to me (peace) but who am I just a human trying to get along in this world and life is Not easy for anyone one.

Alcohol has been around for a long time and I cannot but wonder if it is best or the if the doctors got mad at the alcohol producers because of NO kick backs and discieded that it was better to have a druggie behind the wheel that they have precribed that they can make make money. The Greed in this country is rampid.

Please do Not get me wrong as I am gainst dunk drivers for sure , but what about the prescribed drugs? I wonder?

I do so Love it when I get a Christmas card with the Lamb and the lion laying together as that is what it is all about to me (peace) but who am I, just a human trying to get along in this world and life is Not easy for anyone one.

Alcohol has been around for a long time and I cannot but wonder if it is best or the if the doctors got mad at the alcohol producers because of NO kick backs and discieded that it was better to have a druggie behind the wheel that they have precribed that they can make make money off of. The Greed in this country is rampid.

Please do Not get me wrong as I am gainst dunk drivers for sure , but what about the prescribed drugs? I wonder? My daughter is a druggie so I so do know what I am taking about.

I cannot help but think of the people who were spared pain by Alcohol when they had to be cut on a long time ago.

Alcohol and drugs have been around for a long time and they Both may destroy the brain as we are leaning.

Cigs and pipes, were for healing as well I remember the soomthing of the ear ake when the smoke was blown in to my ear.

Enough You say So do I. Nite, Nite to all of you.

I cannot get in to any of the posts above so they stand as wrighten, such is life. No Problem as some youngins say.

I happened to see a memorial message from C Heilbrun's publisher in the New York Times the other day. At Betty's suggestion, I have read Writing a Woman's Life and also found The Last Gift of Time, Life Beyond Sixty. Had just discovered this great author and finished the second book in the morning and found the message in the evening. She was literary executor for May Sarton as well as a mighty author herself. A real lose to the reading community.

Lou

Lou, that Last Gift of Time: Beyond Sixty sounds good, doesn't? I am sorry to hear of HER death, looks like we just missed another good author interview, doggone it, always a day late and a dollar short, good thing we started this discusison finally. I am hoping that Betty will rejoin us soon as she feels able.

Anneo and Angleface and Malryn and Carolyn, and Ginger, thank you for those super points and stories, they are sooo appreciated and add to the fabric here of our entire being.

I think as we begin to address the various issues in the stories we encounter, we will all want, and deserve, the freedom to speculate without accusation, and to give our own opinion which will be respectfully received. My hope is that we will all come away having learned something. In order to do that, we must take the risk of opening ourselves up just a tad to what others are saying, even IF it seems vastly different, and that's my hope for this discussion, God knows I need all the opening up mentally I can get hahahahaa.

Now continuing with your own posts, just wanted to throw that in here, Lorrie made a super point when she said, "To me the intersting part of these stories is not how and why they got in the predicament they are in, but the way they conduct themselves once they are incarcerated. Will they become even more resentful and bitter, railing at the circumstances that brought them there, or will they accept what happened and try to make the lives of those around them a little less dreary?" I think that, too, is a very important point, what did they DO with their time, what is their attitude?

Babi mentioned that she thought maybe Robin Cullen came out of prison "making a bigger contribution to society than she had before." And THAT of course, would be one feather in the cap for Rehabilitation, or is it for her, herself, or both? We will want to look and see what is actually offered in the way of rehabilitation!

Macruth has said "women are often treated more harshly in correctional syststems than men would be for the same offense, I don't know if this has changed or not." I don't either and am not sure why that might be so, that's another fine point raised here, thank you!

Maryal mentioned the tea bags, I liked that, too, that shows to me resourcefulness and initiative, and not giving up.

That's the same point Anneo was making about what matters is how you deal with a crisis, what's that saying about it? I simply can't remember it today, but so true, how does it go??

nlhome, I agree that she was not complaining, but as Malryn has also asked the excellent question which has nagged at me a bit, also, then WHY did she feel compelled to write that? Maybe we should write her and ask her, what would you all think of that? Perhaps she would agree to be interviewed?

OK I hope now that I have not omitted any person, I really enjoy reading your posts in printed form, and as I said the wind blew them all over eveyrwhere, if there is a point you made you would like for us to all address, please let's look at it before Tuesday as we have an entirely new voice coming up then?

The Yellow Wallpaper is our first reading and it's entirely online, it had a quorum immediately and is scheduled to begin on November 1. I hope to see you all there. Please note in the heading it's noted in red ink in the chart to signify that we've done IT. I will tomorrow be mailing out the ballot with the sentences you have submitted and we'll vote on our first reading of a book in January.

If you are not on the email mailing list, please click on my name and email me to get on it, you're missing some huge big and important news?

ginny

Lou, that Last Gift of Time: Beyond Sixty sounds good, doesn't it?

It is a good read, Ginny. 15 essays with titles like "The Small House", "Time", the one on May Sarton "A Unique Person"... they were friends and gives a real feel for Sarton, "Sex and Romance", "On Not Wearing Dresses"...

"When she was young, distinguished author and critic Carolyn Heilbrun solemnly vowed to end her life when she turned seventy. But on the advent of that fateful birthday, she realized that her golden years had been full of unforseen pleasures..." and more from the back cover. I throughly enjoyed this book and highly recommend it.

Lou

GINNY,

A quick question : Did the female inmates write their own stories, and did Wally Lamb in turn edit the stories ?

I thought I saw earlier mention of the fact that the inmates were not permitted direct communication with the public in that regard. Did I misread this by any chance ? And if true, would such an order still hold for those who have since been released ?

Thank you.

I dunno, Traude, that's a good question, yes the women wrote their own stories, but there's a good bit in the book about the Son of Sam law which prohibits people from profiting from their crimes so they are not permitted to talk about the crime that put them IN prison, Lamb does a coda and brings us up to speed, yes, he mentioned in his talk at the National Book Festival, he'd write ONE page of his own new book and then tons of pages would come by FAX, from the teaching assistant but he could not say no, he's an incredible person, truly, yes it's their own words and in the book he talks about how he edited them.

Thanks for your interest!

The new Wally Lamb discussion IS up now, at Wally Lamb and the Women of the York Correctional Institution and Babi has already made a post indicating interest, thank you, Babi!!

We hope the rest of you will come on over, as well, we'll need you. When the PBS Program Series opens, with your individual permissions, I do want to copy some of your words here over to that discussion, not all of them so as to denude our own undertaking here, I wonder if we should actually put them on HTML pages, because they would also be of use to us in the Lamb discussion, what do you think?

Would you give permission for your own words to be put on HTML pages and saved?

I do hope all of you will try to see the PBS production on December 16 and come discuss it with us, too; we have lots of excitement going on, I do hope.

Tomorrow is Topic Tuesday and you will receive in the mail notice when it's up and also the ballot for the books nominated, I want to add that over Sixty book Lou just mentioned to the other Heilbrun in the heading if you don't mind, since it does look so good.

ginny

The writing style intrigued me LESS IS MORE.. Christmas as a symbol to create a whole strange world which touched all our hearts and minds. Is this cullen or lamb doing the writing? confused but very appreciative. . .. . . . . Claire

I've put Dec. 16 on my calendar for the PBS PROGRAM SERIES. I do hope it is airing here on the same date. ..Babi

Claire, Robin Cullen did the writing, it's her voice and hers is totally different from the others, Wally Lamb is teaching a course in writing at the prison, as a volunteer, and edited the pieces. The book is full of these things, and we might, once we have selected only 4 voices to look at (those of us in that discussion, that is, decide which story we ourselves liked most or which one moved us the most, but that's for later on, and I hope you all will try to be reading with us, AND will try to watch the PBS series on another prison experience December 16, I'm depending on all of you! (YOU'RE the ones who started this! hahahaha) no telling where it will take us, stay tuned for another Topic Tuesday, am running a tad late, am just in from my class today in the Religions of India, very interesting on the god who is half man half woman!

hang on!

ginny

Ok here we go, Topic Tuesday for October 21, another voice and this time one you might not agree with, let's see, do you or don't you?

Topic Tuesday Selection: October 21, 2003:

Waitresses on Television Sitcoms

Finally, there are those sitcom waitresses. The fact that television won’t allow nudity or scenes of an explicitly sexual nature matters not when it comes to the portrayal of sexuality in waitresses. The red-hot passions between Diane and Sam in Cheers was one of the series’ strongest draws, and Carla’s numerous lusty encounters were as much a part of her character as her well-aimed verbal barbs. There’s no point in pretending that the waitresses in Alice hadn’t been around the block a few times. Their relationships (which were as much a part of the series as their pink uniforms) were all of a decidedly sexual nature. As for the waitresses on It’s a Living, the salient memory for those who watched the show mostly involve what the character wore (little low cut dresses) and how they looked (all very attractive).

Sexuality, however, is merely one in a long list of qualities that these imaginary waitresses share. Another common theme is that of loneliness and, by extension, the need to be rescued emotionally. In almost every case, the loneliness and attendant need are caused by the absence of a man—which is somewhat ironic given the fact that all of these characters have endured varying measures of abuse at the hands of the men in their lives. Abuse, in fact, seems an in controvertible aspect in the lives of these waitresses. Consider the film version of Alice, for example , first married to an abusive husband, then involved with a psychotic suitor. Still, Alice needs a man in her life and will keep pining for him until the right one comes along to rescue her…..In fact, despite verbal abuse, no-good husbands, even rape, these women cannot be whole and cannot find personal fulfillment without a man.

This is not to say that the women portrayed here are not independent. Rather, the opposite is true. Several characters support not only themselves but their children on their tips. They are quite obviously women who work hard and who can take care of themselves physically. However the emotional helplessness present in every one of these waitresses under mines their physical independence and dictates an immutable need to be saved….And in almost every case, the right man ends up coming along just in the nick of time.

If these arguments aren’t convincing enough to elicit a recognizable profile, let me throw a few more common elements into the mix. With the exception of Diane Chambers in Cheers (whose character, I might add, was never a very good waitress,), the women in these films are largely uneducated. Those waitress uniforms, according to Hollywood have very blue collars. This is not to say that the omen portrayed here are stupid, In fact, they are all possessed of generous street smarts, are able to tirelessly match wits with an number of smooth-talking customers, always have a quick comeback to any comment, and often have true insight into the human condition. There is not, however, an intellectual in the bunch.

The inference can be made that if these woman were better educated, they would definitely not be working as waitresses. At the very least there wouldn’t be working in these places, a collection of greasy-spoon diners, dives, and questionable coffee shops….The I probably explains where there is such a shortage (at least in that my research has turned up), of waitresses in film who have attended or are attending college, who are simultaneously pursuing other careers, or who have any kind of intellectual life involving more than what’s written on their order pads. I waitress who is not mired in her job due to limited skills and education doesn’t fit the common conception. And although all the waitresses here are looking to get away from their jobs (even in fantasy, nobody want to consider waitressing a permanent career), their avenues of escape involves the help of a man and not their own resources.-----

From the book Waiting: The True Confessions of a Waitress by Debra Ginsberg, a 20 year career waitress.

What do YOU think about any or all of this? Ballot going out tomorrow!

ginny

Here in NZ lots of University students wait tables. Vanessa waited tables in an Italian Restaurant when she first started her studies. I have a good collection of authentic Scicilian recipes thanks to her experience except I use lite sour cream instead of the real cream they used in a lot of their dishes. Also women who have taken time out from their careers wait tables or do office or home cleaning as they can work in the evenings or during school hours its just a help with the family budget. Here we don't have diners as such so the waitresses have to be very smart and very polished. I have never come across any of the sit com type waitresses here. Do they REALLY exist or is it just on TV? The nearest thing to a diner we have here would be Denny's.

Carolyn

PS to my last post. We have lots of Asian and ethnic foodhalls here but its all self service mostly - buffet style or over the counter service. You go up to the kitchen counter and they dish up the food and you take it back to table.

Carolyn

Hi All! I haven't had time to read the posts in a while -- working two jobs on weekends and weekdays in order to get by, you know how that goes. (Reading is still my priority with free time! How I love books!) But I find it difficult, at the moment, to participate in discussions. I did, however, catch up on the last 60+ posts.

I'd like to say how much I admire GINGER for her honesty and heart (generous and kind as always -- a rare and treasured gift); ANGELFACE for her thoughtful look at and consideration of the issues and for not trying to claim Final Authority but being open to others; NLHOME -- how should I address you? -- for calmness and steadiness and thoughtfulness; and GINNY for her dedication to the topic of women in the world and her creative ways of getting us to think outside the box.

And thank you too -- ALL OF YOU -- for your contributions! I can post only infrequently at this point in time but it is a great treat to come into SN and Women in Literature and read all your insights; the interchange between everyone is inspiring. I may not agree with certain opinions or statements but they all make me think. Please keep on with the discussion. This is wonderful.

Marvelle

In real life a wait person is supposed to blend in with the background and have no personality except for a pleasant look on his or her face. Wait persons are there to serve and wait, not to flirt with or carry on conversations with the customer.

The restaurant business is tough and stressful, yet when the wait person leaves a kitchen where the chef is yelling and someone who cut herself is bleeding all over the floor, he or she must look calm and collected at all times. It isn't easy.

All three of my kids waited table for money. My daughter and her husband waited table for quite a long time after their son was born, one taking a day shift, the other a night shift, so one of them would be home with their child. Her husband -- now ex-husband -- is moonlighting as a waiter right now.

Wait people make less than minimum wage and pick up their income from tips. It is to their advantage to do a good job, regardless how rude the people at the table are to them. I've seen my daughter bring home less than ten dollars in tips in a night, and I've seen her bring home $500, depending on where she worked and how well her patrons thought she did.

Every restaurant they worked in here in NC and in Florida, where they lived before moving north, was filled with college graduates, college students, or people who had taken courses at a college or university, who were waiting table.

Would you agree that television sit-coms lie?

Mal

You ask: Would you agree that television sit-coms lie?

My answer is No as all you have to do is go to a truck stop where there are a lot of trucks and observe. Smile.

Malryn You are right on in saying wait person.' 'Wait person' is the new name for people who take the orders and then deliver the food. No sexal ID in 'wait person'. The times have sure changed. lol

TV situation comedies try to have personalities that the viewer can identify with. Carla was an earth mother figure while Diane was the sexual interest for male viewers. However, she wasn't a threat to women viewers because she wasn't brazen in her sexuality.

Could these programs be morality plays? And if so are the waitreses 'everywoman'?

GINNY ANN, around here in NC they're called "Waits", whether they're male or female.

Ha ha, GINGER, the people in the truck stop I used to go to in Amesbury, Massachusetts sure didn't act like the ones in a sit-com. Guess I should have looked around for one that was more fun! ; )

Mal

Having been a Wanderer all my life I have seen Many things such as the waitresses in truck stops as the food is very good "home style cooking" so most truckers know where to get there needs met and they used to do just that.

However, two things about world television are widely known or at least should be by now. So many college and government studies have been done about it in England, here, in Australia and New Zealand. So many magazine articles written about the paucity of TV that we could almost quote them verbatim.

Television stereotypes its actors because they need to generalize and will go with the prevailing view. The last time I really watched American TV, everyone was a detective, They were blind, wheelchair bound or going thru angst such as a broken marriage or having children who were hippies or were themselves hippies. Later, hippies were in and regular was out and if you watched much television, you would see the same episode on every program, barely disguised.

The second thing is that television is geared toward a fifth grade education as are newspapers and magazines. This is obvious in a country where People Magazine and the Enquirer share top billing, but other countries have their own variety of gossip and show biz.

The comparison of TV's version of waitresses is accurate enough. If a waitress is being featured, the script calls for all those 'marketable' traits. There may be wisecracking waitresses around, as I have no doubt there are customers who think they are fair game and need to be put in their place.

The true pattern seems to be as others have posted. In university towns, 'wait' persons are generally students. In most restaurants, fast, accurate and courteous service is expected and is given. 'Diners' have been pretty much relegated to the highways and byways. The waitresses I have seen in these diners are usually a little older, friendly, a bit footsore. No noticeable resemblance to the TV versions.

A story for you: My son worked as a waiter for his first jobs and was generally popular with his customers. Even in fine restaurants, however, there are sometimes customers who are rude, surly and abusive. One such customer was so ugly his companions were even embarassed. Andy (my son) was able to carry professional imperviousness only so far. When he brought the man his sandwich, the customer culminated the evening's rudeness with by snarling, "I thought I told you to 'step on it'! Andy looked at him for a moment, then set the plate with the sandwich on the floor, and stepped on it! And no, he wasn't fired. ...Babi

My sister had a similar issue with a local newspaper staff that stopped in the dining room where she worked for dinners on Friday. Since she was working for a hotel chain, she was generally advised to behave professional no matter what.

Well this group had a reputation for harassing their waitresses over the years and the wait staff was unable to do anything about it. On my sister's last day, they came in and spent the hours being their usual selves.

One favorite trick was to wait and have the food brought to the table and then say "I didn't order that!" and to the table at large, "Did I order that?" to which everyone would say no and look at the waitress, who was forced to take the food back and reorder. The hotel wouldn't say anything.

My sister was so tired of them complaining about everything that she asked them to hold off and she would bring them some official forms to use for their complaints. She brought a new roll of toilet paper out and placed it prominently on their table. She then exited the dining room to a round of applause from the other diners!

I have been away and have just caught up with all of the posts. I was agreeing with your comments on the falsity of waitresses on TV, but then I stopped and thought. We spent a month in the mountains of North Carolina. About a mile or so from the campground, there was a teeny little gas station with a laundramat, truck stop stuff and a little diner. We used to go have our second cup of coffee most days here.. We even did a once a week breakfast several times. The waitresses and cook here did in fact correspond with the blue collar image. Our favorite waitress was a nice funny woman with very few bottom teeth. She was efficient kind and very outgoing. The last day we were there, there was a new waitress. She looked like an older and prettier version of our waitress. Much to our surprise, our waitress said.." Oh thats my Momma. We always like to work at the same place" Then she name six or seven restaurants locally and said, that they had worked in all of them. She said, She liked to change jobs and never stayed anywhere more than 2 years. We enjoyed meeting her. She could have gone straight into a tv sitcome ( well, maybe the teeth would have needed some work)

This egalitarian country of ours, rarely hear the term waiter anymore. We simply have resturant staff, who one treats decently or starves.

Staff serving food are generally, making money, which in this country I might add is excellent, even without tips. We have a thriving hospitality industry where people are trained in good service.

I have a now retired brother, who worked for A.M.P. for years, and in the evenings ran a business called "have tray will travel", he made more money at that than he did with the daytime office work.

I find it sad that there are those who consider such work menial, or stop gap and need to assure that it is only used as a stepping stone to higher things.My kids all started their careers in McDonalds, and look on that time as a really great experience.They learned about customer service and work ethic there, more than they ever did being waited on (pun intended) by their indulgent mother.However company policy is to use young people, and so they moved on, but have always kept their time there in their resume.

Lets hope we are moving beyond the stereotype.

Anneo

Bless you, Anne, I couldn't agree more with what you say.

I was irritated by the condescending attitude of the author, and those sweeping statements of hers about the mental capabilities and the aspirations of waitresses is way off base. How dare she generalize like that?

I worked for three years and more as a waitress while I was trying to get through college, and the women I worked with were a far cry from the brainless, low intellect ones she describes as the norm. We all took pride in giving good service, making customers happy, and of course earning big tips. Most of the women I worked with who were full time were hard working ladies who worked undesirable "split shifts", put up with both harried chefs and customers, and all suffered from sore feet. Wearing a skimpy uniform or being adept at a snappy retort was far from the norm, and unlike what the author says, can do very well without a man, thank you.

Read what some of the critics had to say about her book:

"Ginsberg does not connect her situation to the larger problems of the service economy or of women's work in general. Nor does she contribute to our understanding of how to survive in her occupation or even how to get better service in a restaurant. The section on images of waitresses in film and on television is particularly limited in insight. Not recommended."
APaula R. Dempsey, DePaul Univ, IL.
Copyright 2000 Reed Business Information, Inc.

In lots of ways, I think the portrayal of these waitresses, as described by this author, parallels the portrayal of many women in tv sitcoms, waitress or not. I’m trying (unsuccessfully) to think of one single woman, unmarried woman, in a sitcom, that wasn’t “looking for a man”… no matter what had happened in their lives with men. I don’t watch much television and haven’t seen many of the shows she talks about, but from what she says, it doesn’t take much imagination to understand exactly what she is saying. But then, when I think about it, I can’t think of any unmarried men on tv sitcoms who aren’t “looking for a woman”. I have to say, I know several professional women who were waitresses at points in their lives… college vacations, college years, between jobs… and sometimes they took pay cuts when they found a “real” job. Guess that depends on where a waitress works.

So what does all that say about how women are portrayed in literature??? Maybe it says that stereotypes are alive and well in literature and in sitcoms???? Hopefully, in real life things are much better as you all have been saying in your posts... let us hope so anyway!!

Lou

Did I read the topic piece wrong? I thought Ms Ginsberg was talking about how waitresses are portrayed on TV, not describing real life people who wait.

Any 20 year veteran in the waiting business I've known is not just that. He or she is "Head of Waits" or a Manager by then. According to what I saw when my daughter had a Head of Waits job, there is a good deal of responsibility involved. As with all restaurant jobs I know about, there's a lot of stress involved.

The restaurant business and waiting table always reminded me of the theater. Nobody sees what's going on backstage or what went on before the doors opened for the night, and the show must go on flawlessly no matter what. I think waiting table is a most respectable and very tough job.

Above I refer to fairly high class restaurants. I've known plenty of people who worked in places like Denny's, for example. Their job is even harder, mostly because it's an assembly line kind of job where customers are in and out quick. The tips in that sort of place aren't anywhere near as good.

Mal

Mal is right. She is not speaking of people in "real life" at all. She is speaking of the stereotyping of low level jobs in the television medium and from what I have seen, she is absolutely correct!

ANGELFACE, a bow and round of applause to your sister from me, please. I loved that story.

As for the sitcoms, if they are to be successful it appears they must have a 'romantic' element, if not outright blatant sex. I doubt if a sitcom with a hero or heroine who 'could care less' would make it past the opening shows. ...Babi

I apologize for running behind on the Ballot mailing, but am gaining on it, the last hold up is about to cave! hahahaha

Babi you mention the airing date of the PBS POV Program Clubs, if it's not the 16th in your area, that's ok we'll be discussing it for a while, so any airing date will be fine, I think their website will show the listings in each area and we'll need to get up that discussion soon so we can put that in the heading, it's a local locator, thank you for asking.

Ok this week's Topic Tuesday again is an excerpt, I may try to find an entire essay for the next one, since so much has to be left out.

This is a new book which I bought and have truly enjoyed as it brings back my own memories of waitressing, there is a LOT of behind the scenes stuff.

I left out here her treatment of film waitresses which she DOES mix in here a bit too freely with the result that it IS a bit scattered, I have removed those items so what you see here is edited.

Her entire family has been in the restaurant business, wait staff, etc., and that's been her entire career, she's very.....insistant upon recognition AS a career, and she does, I'm going to have to agree with Lou a bit, have a somewhat strange attitude, in places.

MARVELLE!!! SOO glad to see you again, I wondered where you WERE! I agree, these ARE just super points being made here and I'm very proud of this discussion and this group, you've all done a great job with it. That "thinking outide the box is one of my favorite phrases and thank you VERY much for the kind words!

Malryn asked if TV sitcoms lie? What a good question? DO they? Not just about waitresses but about anything? I'd say they are total lies, do any of you agree or disagree? We're supposed to be laughing at ourselves but they have to exaggerate "our" experiences to the point that nobody is offended, so perforce they are lies, what are your thoughts on them?

Ginger, is it true, (really?) that truck stops have the best food?

Ginny ANN what a super question on your part also: is there an underlying theme: are these programs morality plays? Love that!

I need to think MORE on tha tone, that's fascinating.

Angelface, wonderful point about the intended audience of the sitcom, is she right, Everybody? 5th grade? Would you all personally watch a sitcom or a drama?

Babi good points on real life versus the tv shows. LOVE the story of I told you to step on it, I think HE would like this book! hahahaah

hahaha Angelface on the toilet paper, as well. The book has a lot of other ways your wait persons get back at you? And they are not pretty?

And LOTS of difficult customers, have you all seen The Restaurant, reality TV this year? Rocco's in NYC? I LOVED that show and it shows you the kitchen versus the wait staff, very good program, now being rerun on Bravo, I strongly recommend it.

Stephanie, welcome back, you can find those old diners with those older typical waitress, and I'm not surprised at the mother and daughter team but I am surprised they are in the same restaurant. Gosh change jobs every 2 years, wow.

Anneo, hahaah so you treat them decently or you starve? hahaha According to this book you treat them decently or ELSE, no joke hahahahaah, it's a head's up to the diner, I can tell you that. I myself nearly got fired once for being...er...too "haughty." For some reason the customer said, "you think you're better than us," (HUH? what? I'm this little kid waiting tables) oh well, I didn't at the time but I'm beginning to now hahaahahah I like that Have Tray Will Travel, you know that's how Martha Stweart got started, I think we in this country are actually moving toward a Service Economy and have been for some time, and it will be very interesting to see how we end up.

Lou, the thing that really struck me about this IS the part about needing a man. Not so much among waitresses, either in the sitcoms or real life but in fiction generally. I can't tell you how many times I have been disappointed, in fiction , reading about a heroine who is finally getting herself together at 50+ only to end up faling back on needing a man, it's almost...it's almost...you can almost see it coming in the book and you start to cringe, all that fine independence and freedom, suddenly gone, I dunno but I have noticed it in fiction, and I guess that's the section that struck me in this piece! hahahahahaa Thanks for the review, they are right on the insight, Ginsberg herself is a single mother, never married and I think that she is quite defensive about supporting herself, that MIGHT account for some of her "insights," but I loved the actual reports of what it's like, she says for instance it's a secret fraterninty and former waitstaff can always identify a fellow wait person by the way they act and the tips they leave. I am notorious for my tips, they are WAY too big, and have always been the source of debate, but that's the way it is, I know how it feels on the other side. Very interesting point you made on "looking for a woman or a man" on TV, Lou, thank you for that. I loved your summation on hwat does it say about how women are portrayed!

Malryn that's also an interesting point on after 20 years what you'd BE maybe not a waitress. They seem to move around a lot in this book, which of course would preclude your being head of anything, she talks about being given privileges and the older wait staff being furious, it is really quite interesting, (not to mention the spitting on plates of food by disgruntled wait staff). I recommend the book just for the experience.

Babi has an interesting point in that a sitcom about what makes a sitcom palatable, too.

What is your absolute favorite TV Show? Let's ask ourselves this to see if, perhaps we prefer sit coms or whatnot? How about at the movies? Do you prefer a comedy or a drama? I will freely admit I hate dramas, I don't care where they are put on , unless they are outre, for instance I love The Sopranos, but can't deal with The West Wing.

In comedy I love, even tho it had a totally tasteless last season, Curb Your Enthusiasm. My favorite program on TV this season only had 6 episodes, and was on NBC, the afore mentioned The Restaurant, a reality show, loved it. My second favorite program is in BBC TV, Ground Force, where gardeners move in and transform a yard in 2 days, love that thing, I know Malryn watches it, too.

More interesting than anything else I have seen.

This woman in literature, seems to scorn her sisters who are only looking for men, she wants to WRITE and be an author, and in fact, has written another book on raising her son Blaze. I like her writing style, but her conclusions less so, still it's a look at the service industry even IF the social commentary is a bit skewed.

ginny

Sit down and have a cuppa, relax lady!! LOL

The television and magazine/newspaper businesses of writing for the fifth grade level is not only about the lowering of academics, its also about the aforementioned generalizing and stereotyping.

Bibi made a good point about seeking a romantic interest in these roles. It seems that the better career a female character has, the more insecurities and emotional problems she has in her personal life along with "NO MAN!" The inference apparently being that a good man is better then all the education and schooling and or careers available to women and girls. In this vein they are indeed a type of morality play similar to the "True Confession" type magazines of my youth.

I'd like to answer your question along with Mal about sitcoms being lies with one of my own questions. Do you feel that the house, or clothes or general physical upkeep of supposedly poor or middle-class characters is in keeping with reality?

Sitcoms in television or movie plots deal with generalities and in what's popular now with the generation viewed to have the largest amount of spendable cash. They also must deal with factors such as the far right, far Christian right and the reigning political climate.

GINNY, you mentioned Martha Stewart, and I suddenly remembered catering. Early on Stewart was in the catering business with a woman named Foster, I've forgotten her first name. She runs a small restaurant not far from where I live that's always jam-pack full of people.

My daughter has worked in one way or another for a catering company here for years. So did my granddaughter for a while. It was through my daughter, Dorian, that I got a job doing billing for that company for a while. The office is one tiny corner of a smallish room, which is where all the cooking is done by, I believe, five chefs. Believe me, this cooking is superb.

Anyway, the Catering Company of Chapel Hill caters huge affairs, many of them at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, or at Duke University. I mean, a thousand or more people are there for sit-down dinners, at some of which are three caterers.

Dorian has waited table and done line jobs for these affairs and smaller events like parties and weddings. In order to do these jobs well, there must be an almost military-like precision. There is extra work involved for wait people at these things, but the pay is good.

The Catering Company decided Dorian's talent as an artist was more valuable to them than her waitress techniques, so they hire her often to design and sometimes make decorations like a wall-size mural of trees or a fake wall of styrofoam painted like aged brick, which was used in a gymnasium. She also made gold masks as table decorations once and large gargoyles for an affair at Duke. If you've ever seen the Duke campus and its Gothic buildings, you know why. The Catering Company is responsible for all that, as well as entertainment.

Did you know that the universities here often have their own catering service to provide for small affairs? They hire students as waits or people from outside.

Mal

No, these shows aren't realistic, nor are the scenery and set furnishings. Even a real life show like Ground Force does retakes, GINNY. Why did I think they wouldn't?

Mal

Has someone here posted that Herland is available online??? Another site was looking at that book and I found it at U of V's electronic library site... scrolling down to read messages here tonight for some reason that popped into my mind and I wanted to share it...

Lou

I don't know about now but back when we traveling in cars the truck stops had Great food. Now I think the breakfasts are very good and a lot of food as it is meant for truckers and if they cannot eat it all they carry the rest in there trucks. I fly in planes now, No broom. (BG)

Lou2, This one is for You and so the rest can read it if they care to.

Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman that can be read on Line.

Lou2, Thanks for letting us know that it can be read on line.

I was married for 29 yrs and loved my husband dearly but must admit that as a widow of almost 9yrs I am enjoying my "singleness". You could say almost I am "set in my ways".

Much as my husband loved our kids he would have found it too much to have the grands here so often. I was able to bring my daughter home with her two little ones and turn the house upside down to nurse her through pneumonia. I did that twice as she had a relapse. The chaos and the noise here would have driven him mad!

I would have been still boating and away all the time and I would not have been here to support my daughter with her two chronically ill children. As it is she knows in an emergency she can count on me. I am more than happy to be that support person. We are such good friends.

I am not therefore looking for any man to make me happy at this stage in my life. I can please myself without considering anyone else. If I want to stay up and talk to a friend overseas on MSM I can without feeling guilty. I can eat my meals at odd hours. I can leave the laundry after all its only affecting me. The dogs can sleep on the bed! I can have a lap dog instead of a German Shepherd! There are many pluses to being single. I too don't know why on almost every TV sitcom finding a man is the be all and end all of life!

Carolyn

You have said it all except we All need to have people to talk to and We get that on S/N. Yea for this Wonderfull place. I have All of You to talk to or to listen to and it is My discision. I love it.

It really is amazing how sincere people are in here! Yes Ginger you are right we all do need someone to talk to. I am fortunate I have a "soul sister" and my daughter to talk to face to face and of course I also have my cyber pals on SN who can be detached which is a help often when one has family problems etc. I have to say I really do feel I "know" quite a few SNetters. It seems like five minutes since I found this site and its some years now! Doesn't time fly when you are having fun!

Carolyn

I have several male friends that I used to date years ago and are now good friends. I also have many male friends here in town and those I've met in cyberspace that I never was anything but a buddy to. The point is, I believe, to be whole in and of yourself and then friends of both sexes will find you.

Why limit yourself to thinking only of the romantic? There are many of the opposite sex that make strong friends and bring different parts to the mix. I had to convince one man that I was on a site with, that we could be just friends.

He had never been plain buddies with a female before. Our interests are varied and not that alike, altho we do share many between us. From that awkward beginning we have been friends now for three years. A cat avoider with bird hunting dogs and a non hunting woman with two birds and six cats can be friends. Why do we need to sexualize everything!?

Angelface you are right. I do have one male friend on the net who has the same breed dog as me but he is gay so it truly is just a friendship. I have known him for 6 yrs now in cyber space. I thought I found a friend here who has the same breed dog as me and who lost his wife with cancer too but he did not want just friendship. I don't see him any more. I did have a good friend years ago who worked with me we were both married and knew each others spouses. It was a good friendship and we often supported each other at work and over family issues. He and his family emigrated to Australia and Rod got sick and I was too busy to keep up contact with him by mail. It is possible to have a very good platonic friendship with a male.

Carolyn

When people are so adamant that one doesn't need a partner.

I have been married for 33 years to a man, who has been a constant joy. That being said he doesn't curb my independence, in fact he encourages it.If I am at some time left alone, I am sure I will make adjustments, and survive. I might even enjoy myself,but I seriously doubt that I will be a better person, when I dont have to consider someone else.

Personally, I have never had a platonic man friend, who has involvement in my life.My daughter on the other hand has 3 or 4, and it seems to work admirably, but she isn't in a relationship with anyone.I guess I have many male mates who have known me for yonks, but would never get personal with them or confide secrets, maybe that is just conditioning.

As for real and stereotypes, are not stereotypes just an amalgam of the real waiters we have known, and dont you every now and then meet a genuine stereotype.

Anneo

You're right Carolyn. what upsets me is this need that some women have to seek out a man to "fulfill" them! I have absolutely no issues with love or dating, sex or romance. I'm in favor of them for me.

What I do not agree with is that we need someone else to "complete" us and then we give up the entire other parts of our lives and expect this other person to do as well! This is a huge burden to put on anyone! It is also highly insulting to the friends you're ignoring, the life you've neglected and to your own self worth.

The strongest marriages and partnerships that I've seen are where each has a life outside of being a couple. Then you may bring portions of that other life to share or not to share with each other. Since you were married 29 years, you know what I'm speaking of.

I also know how hard it is to convince some men and also some women that you can be just friends!

Anne, your length of marriage and the fact that you each had a life outside of that marriage that you could then turn around and share shows what Carolyn and I are talking about.

Also why do you need to define friendship in only a narrow view? Friends come in all sizes and in all types and shapes. I don't think I've ever treated a male friend like a female, its a different dynamic.

You say your daughter has three or four males friends, "but then she isn't in a relationship." Would that change or should it if she finds a relationship? Why can't she have both?

I'm not saying that you must not have a man in your life to be fulfilled in yourself. What I are saying is that a man is not the "only" criteria to being fulfilled as a person. You can be fulfilled in many ways

What do you mean a life outside, Angel.I dont thing marriage is about expecting things, its about giving oneself fully, hoping for nothing, but gaining everything.

We have an eighty five year old friend here, who lost his beloved wife 5 years ago.it is interesting how much he has changed things around the house since she died, cutting down trees he never approved of, removing shutters he didnt like etc. When I asked him if he ever told Jean he hadnt liked some of these things, he laughed and said that of course he hadn't. I then asked why.

"oh, he said, I never wanted anything in life that dampened her smile".

It is kind of nice to be loved that well, and well worth a small loss of independence.

Anneo

I tell you, that were my husband to have a really close relationship with another woman, my confidence would not be so high.I assume that the same would apply to him, but untill now have not asked. Just did and he assures me he would be hurt were I to have close friendships with men as I do with my girlfriends.

As for my daughter, I dont know.Time will tell.

Anneo

I also have Many that I go out to converse with every Wed. some are a retire group from where I worked that do have a luncheon and the other Weds. I go out with my neibors and Love all these people so Very much and there families but as I sit in my home on other days (evenings) I have All of You and do Not have to leave my home but I could go to the VFW. AMERICAN LEGION, MOOSE OR THE EAGLES but I would have to out on the roads after dark and I do not want to be so this is the perfect place or me.

As to being a Wait I have been one and even a carhop Remember those days?

Are the sit-coms somehow wrong to imply that women are looking for men? The way they do it is exaggerated, as is everything else in television comedies like this, but they are not wrong. Women do look for men ( or women as the case may be. ) Men look for women or another man. I think it's as natural as the flowers that bloom in Spring.

Do I need a man to feel complete? No, of course not, but when there's a man in my life I just plain feel better about everything in general.

The past few years are the first time in my life when there hasn't been a man in it whom I liked and wanted to be with at least part of the time, go out to dinner, go to a movie, listen to music, watch TV, just talk over coffee, laugh! There are still men in my life via this medium, including a couple about whom I've thought, Darn. I wish I'd met you for real a long time ago.

I'm a sucker for brains when it comes to a man, and there are some pretty smart cookies out there in Cyberspace. That makes it nice because we can "talk" about a lot of things, and I enjoy seeing the male point-of-view, which is something I miss in the cold-light-of-day of this singlehood.

Is it easier and better to be alone? Well, I tell you, I've been on my own 28 years, a year longer than I was married, in fact. No, it's not easier; it's harder, and it's not better, either. Who in their right mind would opt for loneliness over companionship? I suppose there are some, but not me. I work my butt off every day and into the night so I won't think about the disadvantages of being alone 23 hours a day. The other hour I spend with my daughter if she is able to come in.

Can women and men be "just friends"? With difficulty, I'd say.

So again I say the TV sitcoms are not very far offbase when they show women looking for men and vice versa.

Mal

Mal - You know me- I am pretty strait laced and what one could call old fashioned. I can say with all truth that one can be best friends with a member of the opposite sex without any hanky panky!

Anneo - I don't disapprove of marriage! How could I - I was married for 29yrs after all. I was glad when my kids found life partners but at this stage in my life I don't want it complicated. I am enjoying my kids and grandkids and no matter what a stepdad is not as tolerant as a birth father. I have a stepdad and hear what other stepdads feel about their wives families. We have never had the same relationship with our mother since we had a stepdad. We would love him to treat us as daughters but he does not want to. He said to us one day. I would have loved to have a daughter. It really hurt for him to say that. Well he had four but he does not want us. He does not know how much affection we had to give him and what he is missing out on. Dad alcoholic though he is was more tolerant of us if we had problems than our stepdad ever is. I want to keep the relationship I have with the kids as it is now- its precious to me.

Carolyn

There was a period in my life when I lived alone, after my divorce and after the last of the kids moved out. I did not mind it then, and was quite comfortable with my own company. Eventually, all the kids came back for stays of various length, and that was a good time also, in that our relationships developed beyond the mother-child mentality.

Now my daughter has lived with me for a number of years, sharing expenses and providing wonderful company. I know I would miss her terribly if I found myself alone again. Having her with me may be one reason why I don't feel any lack of companionship. Frankly, the idea of trying to adjust my life to a new male partner impresses me as just too much trouble!

Happily stuck in my rut...Babi

Anne, we are not communicating. The life outside is simply this. Do you have anything in your life that is not strictly involving your husband? Do you work, have girlfriends, go shopping, do things with your daughter? All of these activities are a part of you, but not necessarily part of you and your husband's time together.

Does your husband do anything at all that does not include you? Do you and your husband talk about things that you did when each of you were apart? This is what makes a marriage. That you have other things in your life, activities or what not that you can each bring to the marriage as an enrichment You are not as a couple, emotionally dependent on each other to supply each other's every need, you are not physically grafted together. Perhaps someone more gifted in words could describe it better.

Again, having friends, no matter how strong the relationship, of either sex is a part of life. Perhaps relationship is too strong a word. When you ask your husband about friends, were both of you perhaps thinking of friends that would take threaten the relationship that you had as husband and wife? I think you are not understanding me and making it to be something it is not.

I have friends of both sexes. Some friendships are more casual then others. Some are stronger. I also have at times, romantic relationships. These are not the type of friendships I'm am having with my male friends. One friendship often consists of my listening to how well he does in sports and in the preparation he does for the marathons he runs in. If someone were to say he and I were romantically involved, he would probably laugh!

I think that the fact that they can be themselves, that I'm not expecting them to be all of my life and that I already have relationships that don't include them, is part of the appeal. We can be simply friends, pals, buddies, whatever level the friendship is. Males and females can be friends without sex involved.

A woman that delays buying a house, going out with friends, getting involved in sports or classes or whatever may interest her, that doesn't do any of this because she is without a man is sad. The idea that she needs a man to "complete" her or to allow her a life is wrong.

A man and a woman had a separate life before they are a couple. This life apart, can only enrich what they have together. They shouldn't need each other to be everything in their lives. This is emotionally draining and will often result in trouble and the end of the union.

Catering is a whole different thing that Waiting tables. I worked for a caterer doing cakes, breads, etc. for a while. I know the kind of precision they need and was always fascinated to watch what was happening. I did my work at home, so I just visited, so was never part of it except to watch. Still I admired them. I read a Martha book that seemed to indicate that Martha and her first catering partner definitely agreed to never see one another again...EVER.

One last quick note that I just thought of as an example from television of the fifties and sixties. Rob and Laura Petrie of the Dick Van Dyke Show were married. Rob worked with Buddy and Sally as writers for a TV show. Buddy, Rob and Sally were friends as well as coworkers. This relationship didn't involve any romantic activities, just friendship and it wasn't threatening to any of the wives of the characters.

Poor Sally was of course "looking for a man!"

Ah, but Sally never ever tried to poach on anyone else's man. I liked Sally very much. She had such verve.

It was still a simple friendship between three people that didn't involve sex. Lets see if I can think of another, I don't watch TV so I am at a loss, but what about partners as firemen, police officers or ambulance drivers? They are often close friends because of what they deal with on the job.

Now TV and the salacious magazines would have us believe that they are all having affairs. This is simply ridiculous. Most of these people are platonic friends, good friends as well as partners. In a television show on now, what about the Robert character from "I Love Raymond"? He had a woman partner as a police officer, who he was friends with as well.

All humor aside, poaching is a hunting term. Are we hunting a man? Are we going to metaphorically hang him on our wall when we "bag" him?

When I owned my used book stores, I had quite a few male customers who I regarded as friends.. I am sure they did as well. No romance.. Many of them were quite a bit younger. Even had one teen, who came to see me. If he had money, he bought, if he did not, he sat on the floor next to my chair and chatted away about his life. His parents both worked and were way too busy to chat.. I always had a soft spot for him. I think it is possible for humans to simply be friends. I suspect the hardest group for this would be the early 40's when so many people reach out for all the wrong reasons.

What a lot of wise posts. I appreciate all of your opinions. This is such a good discussion!

Carolyn

It seems we are boring and unenriched. We work together, both our jobs, though not joined at the hip, so to speak, we spend pretty much of our time together.

In 33 years we have spent only 4 or 5 nights apart other than time in hospital, and though we have some dear friends they are for the most part, couples or my girlfriends.I dont wish to imply this is a restriction either of us has placed on the other, it is simply how it has played out.

Since we have for the most part been on the land or coordinated group homes our work has been together.Years ago we went on a weekend called "marriage encounter" run by the Catholic Church, in those years. It lasted for a weekend, and was adverised as making good marriages better.We were running a group home for 13 children at the time and our boss Sister Christina thought we needed some private time, so we went along.

The first activity was to write letters to each other, about special events like first meeting, marriage, first child etc. We were suppoed then to be surprised at our different takes on these events. Ours were I am afraid identical.

The next activity, saw me sneaking of to our accomodation, as I thought it pointless, when I got there, Hubby was already propped up with a good book, so we had a relaxing weekend.

On the last evening we were supposed to tell what we had improved in our relationship to a mixed group, neither of us could thing of anything. The moderator suggested to hubby that our communication may have improved. He replied instantly, " the last thing I need is more talk, as it is this woman wakes me three times a night to tell me something she feels I simply have to know"I have tried since then (with little success) to let him sleep in peace!!!!!!

Seriously though angel, I do understand what you are trying to say, I just do not subscribe to your theory.Vive la difference

Anneo

ANNEO, I think you're a very lucky woman.

STEPHANIE, I don't know exactly when Ms Foster and Martha Stewart did catering together. It had to be some years ago because the Fosters have been in NC for quite a long time. I do know Foster and Stewart are friends. Ms Foster is often on her TV show.

Oh, I did have one male friend. He was an artist and gay, and we had a very close friendship when I lived in Florida. The others I've known who considered themselves my friend, either through the book shop I ran or other jobs I've had, or musicians with whom I've worked, all made passes at me. It must be me. La femme fatale! "What a joke," she says in her aging dotage.

I'd love to say my husband had been my best friend, but he wasn't.

Mal

Anne, you and your husband are exactly what I am talking about. You just don't see it or think I mean something else. Sorry, nuff said!

My late hubby and I had great conversations too but I have not met many other sensitive men in my age group. Think its a cultural thing men were just not taught to share their feelings as children like they are now. I have a friend whose husband is a very brilliant man but he is just a mans man and to me there is little companionship in the relationship - she says herself everyone says to her - How did you two last for so long. They do their own thing mostly - she has her interests and he has his. She goes on her own holidays - he goes into the wilderness. She used to go along with him sometimes when she was younger but not now - she is 70 now. He still heads off out into the wilderness with his tramping boots and his guns! Different strokes for different folks! They are still together after 20 yrs!

Carolyn

Not to be crass, but after having been alone so long, does the physical abstinence not become a problem.Like you I am not into "hanky-panky", for want of a better word, but I am sure not ready to live alone forever.

Anneo

Anneo of course I miss that intimacy but its not the be all and end all of life and I am old fashioned as far as morals go and its marriage or nothing! I am too busy to really worry too much about it! I said to a friend who asked me if I would get married again- "If God dropped a sensitive loving man who liked dogs and wanted to share 4 kids and 6 grands I might consider it but I think to get all that together would be a long shot!"

What would this perfect man get in return - a great cook,loads of affection, fidelity, two licky dogs and a huge ready made family! Think that is fair exchange?

Carolyn

Who knows, Kiwi. There is many a lonely man out there who would LOVE to have a ready-made family. Men generally seem not to do as well in a single life as women do. (I'm not speaking of the swinging young bachelors here.) The guy who finds you would be a very lucky man indeed.

I'm sure you are all aware of the famous study done of married and single men and women, asking how content they were with their lives. The happiest group were the married men, the next down the rung were the single women, third were the single men, and at the bottom were the married women. I found that most illuminating. <bg> ...Babi

I appre ciate good service and tip accordingly ..what is it? a pleasant person who anticipates my needs and is there to help. now how do you do THAT on TV.

seems to me the tipping thing is more than half the problem. If you paid a waiter his/her due, so that he didnt need to "perform" for his pay, he may have a better outlook, knowing that his clientele considered he was worth a full days pay for a full days labour.

Imagine if we started tipping doctors, lawyers journalist according to how well we percieved they had peformed. I think tipping is demeaning.

Anneo

I don't like it either, but I know it's a large part of their pay I lived with peope who were in the field and they got practically nothing except tip-s and even those were often pooled and split up for everyone including the hostess. etc.

not so true here in australia though, as our waiters are paid fair recompense, and tipping is not encouraged.My son is a hotel shift manager, and he gets about $20 weekly in tips, but his take home pay is excellent.

If you dont do your job properly, no job. If you do it well you are paid well. Seems fairer to me.

Anneo

I nominated Herland and mentioned quite a few times that it's available online. Also, my other nominations Little Women and The Yellow Wallpaper are available online.

Marvelle

I do wish that our waitpeople got paid well. I hate tipping. I am not fond of shared tips because that means that the truly awful waiter will stay in the field and the really good ones get ripped off. We had a waitperson so bad on Saturday night that the bartender came over and do most of the work. When we left. my husband paid the bill, but then went to the bartender and gave her a tip, saying loudly( he was not amused) that since she did all the work, he wanted her to have the tip. I hate tipping period.. Hairdressers.. masseuses, mail men( no way), newspaper( no again).. just pay a living wage and stop with the tipping stuff.

Its not only the shared tipping that I find unfair, it is also the way that you must report all your tips to the IRS or they go after you! I have a friend who was a banquet waitress and a hostess and she said it was really bad.

I was a carhop as a teenager,16; and a waitress briefly at 18. They told me I wasn't fast enough! I always tip for a job well done and leave something, 20%; for just being served. However, after really, really poor service; I have been known to leave two cents.

marvelle - 10:27am Oct 27, 2003 PST (#556 of 558) "Everything can be taken from a man [except the freedom] to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances" -Viktor Frankl

I nominated Herland and mentioned quite a few times that it's available online. Also, my other nominations Little Women and The Yellow Wallpaper are available online.

Marvelle

Marvelle, thanks so much for nominating Herland. I look forward to reading it. Your nomination was the first time I'd heard about it. I remember your saying that your nominations were online. Forgive me for not remembering this was your nomination. I apologize.

Lou

Wonderful comments on the tips, and service industry. The whole thing seems skewed to me, they don't make a living wage, and how do the employers get away with that and come to depend on the tips, which originally meant To Improve Promptness: TIP, but if you don't GO more than once and get the same waiter then nothing will be improved, it's sort of a vicious circle, isn't it?

Following the new direction that Amazon has pages of each book and all you have to do is just type in a phrase and Amazon will direct you to the book itself, I found the Helbrun Beyond Sixty and there's an entire chapter there and it's absolutely fabulous, I hit copy and select all and it copied but it will NOT paste, other than a line for the copyright? And when you go to View Source? Nothing is there. They have taken extraordinary steps to protect their texts!! hahahaha I bought the book immediately it looks like a total winner and am very grateful to hear about it here.

Today's Topic Tuesday is yet another voice, this time perhaps not as serious, on something most of us know well: shopping for a special occasion. I love this writer and love this book and had, again, to remove a lot of the text (simply because I'm not that good a typist and gave out) but I think this excerpt is quite telling in many ways and I wonder if you all see anything of value in this snippet?

Topic Tuesday Selection: October 28, 2003:

Partant Pour La Syrie

In a few weeks' time we are starting for Syria!

Shopping for a hot climate in autumn or winter presents certain difficulties. One's last year's summer clothes, which one has optimistically hoped will "do," do not "do" now the time has come. For one thing they appear to be (like the depressing annotations in furniture remover's lists), "Bruised, Scratched and Marked." (And also Shrunk, Faded and Peculiar!). For another-alas, alas that one has to say it!-they are too tight everywhere.

So-to the shops and the stores, and

"Of course, Modom, we are not being asked for that kind of thing just now!! We have some very charming little suits here-O.S. in the darker colors."

Oh, loathsome O.S.! How humiliating to be O.S.! How even more humiliating to be recognized at once as O.S>!

(Although there are better days when, wrapped in a lean long black coat with a large fur collar, a saleswoman says cheeringly,:

"But surely Modom is only a Full Woman?")

I look at the little suits, with their dabs of unexpected fur and their pleated skirts. I explain sadly that what I want is a washing silk or cotton.

"Modom might try Our Cruising Department."

Modom tries Our Cruising Department-but without any exaggerated hopes. Cruising is still enveloped in the realms of romantic fancy. It has a touch of Arcady about it. It is girls who go cruising-girls who are slim and young and wear uncrushable linen trousers, immensely wide round the feet and skintight round the hips. It is girls who sport delightfully in Play Suits. It is girls for whom Shorts of eighteen different varieties are kept!

The lovely creature in charge of Our Cruising Department is barely sympathetic.

"Oh no, Modom, we do not keep out- sizes." (Faint horror! Outsizes and Cruising? Where is the romance there?)

She adds:

"It would hardly be suitable, would it?

I agree sadly that it would not be suitable.

There is still one hope. There is Our Tropical Department.

Our Tropical Department consists principally of Topees-Brown Topees, white Topees; Special Patent Topees. A little to one side, as being slightly frivolous, are Double Terais, blossoming in pinks and blues and yellows like blooms of strange tropical flowers. There is also an immense wooden horse and an assortment of jodhpurs.

But-yes-there are other things. Here is suitable wear for the wives of Empire Builders. Shantung! Plainly cut shantung boaters and skirts-no girlish nonsense here-bulk is accommodated as well as scragginess! I depart into a cubicle with various styles and sizes. A few minutes later I am transformed into a Memsahib!

I have certain qualms-but stifle them. After all, it is cool and practical and I can get into it.

I turn my attention to the selection of the right kind of hat…[after many trials..]

Victory! We select the color---one of those new shades with the pretty names: Dirt, Rust, Mud, Pavement, Dust, etc…

A few minor purchases-purchases that I know instinctively will either be useless or land me in trouble. A Zip traveling bag, for instance. Life, nowadays, is dominated and completed by the remorseless Zip. Blouses zip up, skirts zip down, skiing suits zip everywhere. "Liittle frocks" have perfectly unnecessary bits of zipping on them just for fun.

Why? Is there anything more deadly than a Zip that turns nasty on you? It involves you in a far worse predicament than any ordinary button, clip, snap, buckle or hook and eye.

In the early days of Zips, my mother, thrilled by this delicious novelty, had a pair of corsets fashioned for her which zipped up the front. The results were unfortunate in the extreme! Not only was the original zipping---up fraught with extreme agony, but the corsets then obstinately refused to de-zip! Their removal was practically a surgical operation! And owing to my mother's delightful Victorian modesty, it seemed possible for a while that she would live in these corsets for the remainder of her life-a kind of modern Woman in the Iron Corset!

I have therefore always regarded the Zip with a wary eye. But it appears that All traveling bags have Zips.

The old fashioned fastening is quite superseded, Modom," says the salesman, regarding me with a pitying look.

"This, you see, is so simple, " he says, demonstrating.

There is no doubt about its simplicity-but then, I think to myself, the bag is empty.

"Well, " I say, sighing, "one must move with the times."

With some misgivings, I buy the bag.

I am now the proud possessor of a Zip traveling bag, an Empire Builder's Wife's coat and skirt, and a possibly satisfactory hat.

I think, when you look at the issues she raises there, there are a LOT of things being said, let's see if anybody sees anything of value there.

ginny

I do agree about the lack of smart clothing for outsize figures in department stores. I am not in the really big sizes but I am two sizes bigger than I was 10yrs ago. Even for myself there is little to choose from seasonally for the fuller figure. I saw a woman who was very portly walking down the street the other day in a new season suit. The skirt was far too short to flatter her at all. She had very big legs and the sight was not nice, I could not myself have worn a skirt that short and felt comfortable. However in the shops the clothing is designed to appeal to the sweet young thing with a sylph like figure. There is nothing out there for people like me unless I like to go to a boutique of which there are few who specialise in clothing for the fuller figure. The prices of course are way out of my league. The one nearest me is called Precious Vessels. Nice name don't you think?

Carolyn

I actually find today's Topic Tuesday piece quite amusing and very well-written, by a woman who has the vision and enough satiric mind to see comedy in tragedy, apparently.

I'm tired of ranting and raving about how women can be manipulated by men. Lately designers have taken the absurd "Anorexic Is Fashionable and Good for You" obsession that rules part of the Western world and translated it into clothes even my thin-as-a-rail-in-her-twenties granddaughter can't wear half the time. Not to mention the "No pain, no gain, keep fit at my spa or you'll die this very minute or even before" obsession that is crazing my country and putting us all in skin-tighr jeans. These people never got behind a push lawn mower or weeded a garden or washed the kitchen floor on their hands and knees.

I say, "The he-he-heck with 'em!" I say that because the main character in the novel I finished within a day or two is not allowed to break the Four Letter Word Rule about a word that starts with H. One slip of the lip and she's dragged into the Court on High!

I'd rather wrap a sheet around me toga style than encourage and indulge these "Every Woman is Shaped like a Barbie Doll, or Should Be" boys who try to run my life. Rise up, Women, I say. Get your pleasantly round butts into the most comfortable thing you own. Take to the streets with your bullhorns, your placards and your banners and tell those dudes that women who have normal shapes (who doesn't without extreme effort or fashionable cosmetic surgery?) will no longer put up with their C * * p! Stay out of the stores. Tell them a thing or two by withholding your credit card and your cash. Money talks, and lack of it to a shopkeeper talks even louder. Anybody who plays follow the fashion design leader game around here will have 8 points taken off their licenses to do anything.

Now I have to get out of here. Every time I start acting like a writer in posts online somebody complains and the SeniorNet authorities get on my case.

Signed:

One woman who is proud of the fact that she's round and firm and fully packed!

Mal

(Whew, that's the most fun I've had blowing off steam in half an age!)

Mal wrote:"One woman who is proud of the fact that she's round and firm and fully packed!" Good for you Mal!

Well I am round and fully packed but jiggle because I am not firm. lol

Clothing availabe to us 'full figured women' is starting to get better. I find stylish clothing in some of the catalogs that cater to my size. When anything over a size 14 became full figured I screamed! I would love to be a size 14 again!

The writer sure has it right about zippers! Especially on suit cases! Sometimes 'progress' goes backward rather than forward in the areas of comfort and ease of use.

The author is nagging at me. I think I recognize her.. JUst cannot quite put her name.. This means that about 2 this morning, I will wake, shouting Eureka..or some such nonsense. I was intrigued by the subject since we live in Florida and every single time, we go somewhere cold, I have problems believing it will be that cold. My mental picture is always warm.. Not so of course and boy does this cause problems. I am getting better however. When we went to Canada last week, I did take a coat, gloves, scarf ( no hat and boy did I need one). Still it got down to freezing and this poor sun worshipper got really truly cold.

I'm really enjoying your takes on Partant Pour Syrie, and I love how you have identified many of the issues and the way she presents them.

Malryn mentioned "a woman who has the vision and enough satiric mind to see comedy in tragedy," and I think I liked that in the story very much, notice that even tho she is humiliated by the O.S. (which I did not know what that was until she mentioned it) and that even being O.S. would not be "suitable" on a cruise, she maintains her own sense of "wait a minute here," note her satiric remarks on The Empire Builder's Wife. Little touches here and there, yes the zip works, when the suitcase is empty haahahahahahah

Ginny Ann I agree, it's obvious that this piece was written some time ago, yet the modern zipper is not exactly without it's perils. I can't telll you how many times I have seen bags come down the conveyer belt tied because they have sprung open, spilling their contents out in the belly of the plane. I myself presented a lovely spectacle in London once when my own bag zipper did that hideous lock thing they do? They get to the end and then want to open from both ends?

So I sat there in front of the ticket agents and SEWED the ziper shut! (That would not happen today, would it? They'd put it off the plane or slit it open) but I will never forget it, it was either that or buy a new bag and the airport bags were ridiculous in price, I could open my own bag store here with all the ones I HAVE had to add on over the years.

Again, Stephanie (I'm up here at 5 am waiting to see if you had an Eureka! moment!!) but yes you are astute to recognize the voice, that type of self deprecation and wit and irony is typical of this writer, but again yes, me too, and my own house is full of the Desperately Purchased: It's COLD jackets of strange materials, one from Stonehenge where I nearly froze, in Polar Tek, never worn again, I need to have a yard sale of Travel Garments.

And how true she is on finding clothes for a special occasion. When my oldest got married two years ago, I had somehow bulked up and did not realize it, and put off till the last minute getting a "Mother of the Bride" dress because of course I would lose all that weight, right?

When the day came, nothing that was suitable was found! So I began going to the "Shoppes," where they did the "Modom" thing, even in 2001, and it was just a humilitating experience I hope to never repeat. I will never forget one salesperson saying, as we went up and up in the sizes from my normal size, "I don't even want to say the word XXXXX (size never printed here if you pull out my tongue)." But say it she did and in it I got and looked like a O.S. Matron Empire Builder, in spades, that one did not do. Then to a Bridal Shoppe where they insisted on measuring me first (this over the phone they had not even SEEN me) oh no no I said, just a dress, oh no no they said the HEM the HEM, (said haughtily as if one normally shopped where hems were made personally). I said, no no hemming will be required, oh yes, they argued, yes it will, the earliest we can have it for you is... (4 days). I said do you mean to say your dresses do not have HEMS? (I can do the "Modom Reverse," too). Yes, (grudgingly) they have finished HEMS, of course, sigh sigh, but they will require hemming for best effect!!! I said, no hem will be a problem, I'm tall. No no they said it will require hemming. I said I'm 5'11 in stocking feet (I am now 5'4, having shrunk in height but in no other way) and there is NO way ANY dress you have will require hemming. Modom and the Salesclerk got IN it over the phone!!!

Everybody wants to look good! EVERYBODY wants to look stylish and I personally think unless you are 500 pounds you should be able to. Look at those catalogues for travel clothes? Do you notice the WAIST? Everybody has got to have a slim and trim WAIST or cover it up with a jacket, it's HOT in Europe in the summer, people died this last year from the heat, you can't always put on a jacket, where are the stylish clothes that don't require tucking in? they aren't in Travel Smith or the other one.

Carolyn, I agree, at least here in the stores we are beginning to see stylish clothes for the really big woman, and they ARE pretty. Precious Vessels is a bit twee, to me? hahahaahah I don't want to be called a Precious Vessel, I want to be taken seriously as a person who is no longer stick thin, but who wants to look stylish, and why is stick thin a virtue, anyway?

Those of you in America, have you seen Dr. Phil on TV with his house where people are to lose weight? What do you think of that concept, if you have seen it?

I've BEEN stick thin? And I was nasty and snappish (from the effort to stay that way) haahahahaha>

BUT now they say weight is a precursor of bad things, so we're all supposed to get out, tone up and get on with it, no matter what level of exercise, my 91 year old mother was given exercises she could use to develop muscle tone in her chair.

Ginny Ann said, "Sometimes 'progress' goes backward rather than forward in the areas of comfort and ease of use." That's the truth!!!

Loved the riff on corsets, of course you DO KNOW the corset is back? In spades? Called Body Shapers now they take off inches of that unruly fat in a trice. And they DO work, the problem with me is they make the entire body a casing like a sausage, so the "shape" one might have had is lost in the huge tube, (and of course no person can touch you lest they feel it, causing you to dance away hysterically when they approach with open arms,) it's a daring sort of new corset, the Body Shaper, does not zip but pulls on in one piece or hooks and eyes on, I thought the description of her mother was hilarious, I myself, upon visiting the various restaurant bathrooms of the world, and finding it necessary to completely disrobe, have had some hilarious moments, including but not limited to dropping said body shaper into the facility (what do you DO with a wet body shaper?) hahahaahahah Still, the more things change the more they stay the same, what's a topee, by the way?

ginny

I thoroughly enjoyed this humorous excerpt. Since I did not get on the computer at all yesterday, I'm way behind, and I think someone has said just about every comment I had to make. (I did giggle at "Precious Treasures") And of course, the British origin became evident in the first paragraph with the term "furniture removers".

Thanks goodness, we now have supporters who are condemning the Barbie syndrome as harmful to young girls, and announcing to the world at large that the 'ideal' figure rarely occurs in nature. Personally, I have renounced not only girdles, but also panty hose. I dress for comfort while still trying for things that, shall we say, accentuate the positive and hide at least some of the negative. ...Babi

When I was a lass ha ha!, it was fashionable to wear girdles. We all wore them from about age 16 on, regardless what sort of shape we had.

Because I had to wear a surgical corset from a very early age to prevent (everybody hoped) a spinal curvature, as well as a full torso removable hard plaster cast held on me by steel bands which I wore a terrible, painful, movement-restricted, long, long year, it was my dream in life to wear one of those flimsy-by-comparison, yet tight, tight girdles.

My dream finally came true when on my own I discarded that rigid surgical corset and got myself a girdle! Oh, happy day! Everything was fine until one of my college friends dislocated her shoulder putting her girdle on and all of us in my dormitory woke up to what we were doing. From then on it was a garter belt and nothing else to hold up those newfangled nylon stockings we were finally able to buy after World War II ended.

Shopping for clothes is difficult for me, not just because of usual figure issues women have, but because of the severe spinal curvature that did develop in my back despite all the instruments of torture I wore to prevent it.

In a place where clerks actually wait on you and help you, like in these "shoppes" Ginny describes, when I strip down in a dressing room, the clerk in attendance, I have to wait until the look of semi-horror and pity disappears from her face; then I explain my needs to her.

"Like, Miss, anything I put on is going to hang wrong, whether it's a skirt, a dress, or a pair of jeans, and it will need alteration and re-hemming."

She nods, with another look on her face that says to me she's thinking, "Oh, my God, why did I get myself into this? Why didn't I let Libbie wait on her?" Once in a while I find a clerk who doesn't go into this routine. She sizes me up, and leads me to exactly what I am able to wear.

I hate to go clothes shopping. For one thing, when I don't look in a full-length mirror I can forget my misshapen-ness. For another thing, going through these sessions with clerks who are not used to dealing with people like me can be a psychologically horrendous experience. Why should I expose myself to that?

At last, this woman who was told early on she'd never be any good at sewing by people who knew, bought a sewing machine and began making her own clothes. I had designed clothes for other people, why not design and make some for myself? After all, no one else knows my shape and my needs better than I do.

Well, the people who told me I'd never be any good at sewing were right. The clothes I make do not look like haute couture. But, you know what? They fit!

Because I am not normal I can only imagine the problems a woman who is must encounter. If they're anything like what I've run into, I sympathize.

I am sitting here this bright, sunny morning wondering why I didn't have brains enough years ago to go into the business of designing clothes for people who have special needs.

You know what else? It just hit me. We all do. We all have special needs. There aren't two shapes in the world that are exactly alike. Why in the world do designers and the fashion industry have the audacity to say we have to dress alike, I wonder?

Mal

Mal, you reminded me of a friend of my mothers years ago, who could sew anything. She even made suits for her husband. (She was raised by her English mother to be a lady, and sewing was the only domestic activity she considered appropriate to a lady. As a consequence, her housekeeping was a disaster. But she could sew!)

I asked her once why she didn't do sewing professionally, and she told me she did sew for others in special circumstances. She would not sew for anyone who could go and pick something that fit off a rack. But if they had problems finding clothes that fit, she would use her skills to make clothes for them. I thought this was great, tho' I did think it was a bit of the hangover from her mother's ideas of what a 'lady' could do. She couldn't be a seamstress or tailor, but she could provide a kind of service. ...Babi

Well, BaBi, except for rare occasions when I truly set my mind to it, I was never a good housekeeper because I always wanted to be doing something else like practice the piano or paint a picture or read a book. I don't sew very well, either, really, I just do it, or did, until arthritis did this job on my hands. It's nice to hear about the woman who sewed for people "in special circumstances." I'd love to find a seamstress like her.

Mal

As I understand it, they were gentlemen farmers until the stock crash of 1929 where they lost everything. They then proceeded to farm in earnest through the thirties dustbowl in Kansas and then moved to Colorado when the Kansas place went under.

My mother was raised to be a lady and she carried on that role as an adult. She maintained there were classes of people all her life and while she was personally mean to no one, this was the way she had been raised and how she tried to raise her three girls. We were even sent to deportment classes in the fifties and had dancing classes.

None of this really took with any of her children, altho I do know which fork to use with which course and I do find that small finger reaching out when I hold a cup. She had married a welder from her own circumstances and I think those "airs of civility" were all she felt she had to pass on to us.

She sewed almost everything for us and tried to impart many words of wisdom and this lasted until the sixties when we became teens along with Vietnam and the loss of at least one third of my class to its gaping maws.)(Years later in deciphering a dream I had, I realized that I equated Vietnam as death).

One way that she endeared herself to us even as we were rebelling, was that if we presented our case convincingly and truthfully such as with Kent State and the Civil Rights Movement, she would see our points and agree totally. Then if my father ever said anything, she would spring her new knowledge on him and it wasn't appreciated! She would also apologize if she was wrong! Heady stuff for a child and one I tried to continue with my own child.

So, looking back on my own mother, I can see that she had gone through so much flux in her own life and with her own family, that the way she was open to new ideas and to be able to bend rather then break had to have been a great asset to her. The stock crash, The world wars, Korea and then Vietnam and the sixties. Would I have done so well? I don't think so!

P.S. to Mal & Bibi, in home ec classes, I actually sewed holes in my material, trying to make a skirt and redoing stitches, hate to iron and only clean because I have a dust allergy and two of my cats have asthma so I have too! I think my mother just threw her hands up with me! (smile).

My grandmothers were both adept sewers. My Mom's Mom sewed much of my clothing until I reached High School. Her other daughter took it up also, but my Mom could barely hem something. I remember one time she had to get costumes ready for some skit or something and instead of sewing the hems she stapled them. lol

Angelface, you had a remarkable mother. I also learned from my grandmother the importance of being able to tell a child, "I'm sorry" or "I was wrong".

The sewing lady I told you about had an English mother who had been raised as a lady herself. We're now talking two generations back. One story I always remember concerning her, that her daughter told us. In an emergency, she always reacted promptly did what was necessary. But as soon as help arrived, she would faint. Ladies fainted under stress in her day, and so she did. And it was a genuine faint! It gives you an idea of what cultural conditioning can do. ...Babi

I lived out of town and the nearest town wasnt very big, so my Mother made all of my clothes and hers until I was a teen. By that time, she managed to figure out a way and bought most of my clothes. I am very short and at that point in my life, very tiny, so gowns and really good clothes, she had done by a local dressmaker, who was really good. Our dressmaker even made my wedding gown for me.. She was quite extraordinary in her abilities. No patterns, just sat and talked to you and bang.. the perfect dress in the perfect color. Oh how I wish she were still around.

There are a lot of us who wish some of those talented ladies were still around! We'd be delighted to augment their income. ..Babi

What I learned when I began to sew was that clothes are not made; they're constructed just as a piece of furniture or a building is. It's easy to know this in your head, but not so easy to do. If you're too lazy to measure everything precisely, especially the person you're making it for, there'll be a misfit.

I was very good at dreaming up designs for clothes and making, for example, a dress for my daughter that had a simple blue underdress and a fabric with cutouts (I've forgotten the name) over it, so you could see the blue underneath. Putting it together was another thing.

What I learned most of all from the trials and errors I made in creating patterns from designs I drew on paper for different people with different shapes was that designers and manufacturers have a really big nerve to put a size on an article of clothing and pretend it will fit and look good on every female who thinks she's that size. The clothes you see in movies and on fashion models are nipped and tucked and made exclusively for their shapes. I remember hearing once that Sears Roebuck, as it was called, made clothes on their catalogue models fit by pulling in the fabric with pinch clothespins on the back that were hidden from the camera.

I forgot to say that when I started to do serious knitting and making my own designs for sweaters and such, I never used a pattern. I did it all by measurements taken of the person for whom I was making it.

Mal

Plus her hair had been brought up and over a piece of cardboard to make it look the way it was in the photo!

What wonderful memories and posts here, I just saw Lost in Translation with Bill Murray and they had him at a photo shoot and he got up from the shoot and turned around and they had these clips on his suit in the back making his suit look good and he forgot they were there and walked off.

I cannot sew a stitch, despite having taken Home Ec and having to make a skirt and wear it for our end of the year project. My hands are huge, I have the hands of a man and can't hold a needle (not that I could SEE a needle at this point) Hate sewing, just hate it, I think it's an art or skill just like anything else, when I got married my Mother in Law had made all of my husband's clothes, including blue jeans, broadcloth shirts and suits, curtains, bedspreads, etc., can you imagine what she must have thought, I canNOT sew a stitch even today, not a one.

The writer of the piece is, as you all say, a familiar voice: Agatha Christie, (Steph, did you shout EUREKA??!!) and it's the first sentences or so in her fabulous autobiography Come, Tell Me How You Live.

I am a tremendous fan of this woman who wrote, even while on archaeological expeditions, in all sorts of conditions, on a beat up old typewriter, no matter what the circumstances, and this book nicely details her humorous account of her travels with her husband Max Mallowan the Archeologist. She said the older she got the more interesting she was to him. ahahahah LOVE it, and her. Wonderful book, by the way. She did two autobiographies, this one is by far the best.

By now you've all gotten your ballots, if you did not receive a ballot in email, please indicate here your first two choices, from the chart above, we are now selecting our first Book Group read, for January and on November 1 this forum will redirect all persons to our joint project of The Yellow Wallpaper, which itself is a TOPIC TUESDAY extraordinaire, it's in the heading and in red, click on the underlining and come join us, I'm expecting it to be a HOOT!

ginny

Sorry no ballot.. Do you mean this discussion is going to morph into the Charlotte Gilman thing. I truly do not like her stuff.

Stephanie, I am so sorry you did not get a ballot, have just sent you another one, thank you for speaking up!!

Well the idea was, yes, to read the Wallpaper instead of Topic Tuesday but we can leave this discussion open, if you like, but the Topic Tuesday will be The Yellow Wallpaper, I hate that but am co-leading Gandhi at the same time and can't do three new presentations at once. However, I can and will leave this open?

Would that be ok and you guys can talk on whatever subjects suit??

ginny

welllll we've already morphed into sewing from women in literature and child rearing and and and. I think women are like that in general when it comes to sticking to the point. We've done so many different things in our lives that each has several associations with others. I'm moving. . . no time to read other than this, so will hang ot and enjoy your ideas and posts. . . . claire

if I have to choose . . . this looks interesting.

Beyond Sixty Carolyn Heilbrun

claire

I liked Carolyn Heilbrun.. Never read Beyond Sixty, but it sure sounds interesting at this point. Ginny is a never say no type person?????

appears to be out of print but this site has interesting things to say about it's author.

http://hallmemoirs.com/specific_groups/91.shtml

and she's written more books about us women creatures and our lives. I think I'll look for it used or at the library whether we choose it or not.

and then Amazon suggests these, mostly by her.

Customers who bought this book also bought:

Writing a Woman's Life by Carolyn G. Heilbrun (Hardcover) Suddenly Sixty And Other Shocks Of Later Life by Judith Viorst (Author) (Hardcover) Reinventing Womanhood by Carolyn G. Heilbrun (Hardcover) Rules for Aging: Resist Normal Impulses, Live Longer, Attain Perfection by Roger Rosenblatt (Author) (Hardcover) The Measure of My Days by Florida Scott-Maxwell (Hardcover)

Explore Similar Items: 18 in Books, 6 in Music, and 7 in DVD

claire

hahahaah Steph, you got that right, I want it ALL hahahaaha,

Claire, thank you for that vote, no it's not out of print, I just got a brand new copy of Beyond 60 in the mail yesterday and it looks delicious.

I think also we're having great fun looking at how women are portrayed in literature and I wonder if you all saw the new book out on Sojourner Truth? I can't find it on B&N, but apparently it's something new, a new reprint or something? I think that one might be a super selection and nomination sometime in the future, the article on it I read had her repeating "Ain't I a woman?" I think we might want to read that one, someday, I never have, have you? I threw away the magazine so am not sure what edition it is, but it's under new books?!?

Thank you all for the votes, they're coming in very nicely, Claire did you not get a ballot? is that a new email? What is WRONG with my email lists!!

Sorry,

ginny

We don't have Beyond Sixty in our library system. I will look on B&N

Carolyn

OH great Carolyn, you must have ESP because....drum roll....

And the winner is......................

The Last Gift of Time: Life Beyond Sixty by Carolyn G. Heilbrun (who wrote Writing a Woman's Life). and it was a squeaker!

Runners Up were: The Handmaid's Tale, The Awakening, A Room of One's Own, Grania: She King of the Irish Sea, In This Our Life, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, Pride and Prejudice, The Whole Woman, The Color of Water, Writing a Woman's Life, and America's Women, so you can see it was a well represented field and several of those will make great future selections.

If you have not experienced first hand Life Beyond Sixty, I urge you to check it out and read a few words of the very first chapter A Small House, I believe you'll be hooked! There's also a chapter on E-Mail, this sounds like US!! Do join us in January!

ginny

I truely believe most everyone will enjoy this book... it offers so many different subjects as essay topics. A fine read.

Lou

Hi all……I no sooner subbed here, at Ginny’s invite, than I went walkabout (went ‘waltzing matilda’) to visit several friends…..1,000 kms south, all around, then back again. Here, I was wearing summer clothes. When I got to my several destinations, I wore winter clothes and am back in summer clothes now.

Since retirement, I have two types of clothes, jeans, rugby shirts, jumpers (pull over sweaters) and vests in winter, shorts, etc, t-shirts and cotton blouses in summer. I went out to eat with Anneo and hubby last night so Anneo knows my ‘limited’ dress styles.<g> She was all done up and because it was evening and a bit cooler, guess what I wore? Jeans and a blouse, with a scarf to dress it up.<g> Today, I’m back in shorts and t-shirt. I’ve given away my ‘work clothes’….too dressy for retirement.<g>

Here in Brissie, it’s not much problem shopping for summer clothes. They are in the shops 9 months of the year. What I do find funny, however, is that winter clothes are put on the racks in March, when it’s still very hot and humid and summer clothes are put out in late July during one of our 3 months of winter (well, winter to us, early spring to most people from colder climes). Since I shop the end of season specials, any new clothes I buy are ‘almost’ in fashion.<g>

I chuckled about the ‘pre-loved’ clothes. I know which shops to go to and have gotten some wonderful bargains, even name-brand clothes which were pre-loved.

We don’t seem to have a problem with clothes for ‘fuller figures’ here. There are sections in the major stores for we ‘mature’ ones. Plus, we have 1626, Millers and Ma Belle. I wear 16 here (in the US, I wear size 14, not fair, eh?) but sometimes buy an 18 top to accommodate the top part appendages.<g>

I can’t imagine wearing a corset of any type, certainly not with the tropical weather we have here. In fact, I wear all cotton undergarments, the skimpiest possible, to prevent heat rash. I’d rather get the bigger size top to cover the ‘bad bits’ than wear a corset to hold it in. When I shifted from the Territory to country Queensland in late ’81, I went down the street in a country town and there was a ‘foundation’ shop. The country women used to accompany their husbands to town on potty calf sales days and dress up in their finest, including foundations. They finally wised up and the foundation shop went out of business.

Like Mal, I’m not rapt in shopping. What happens when I’m in the changing room is that this strange old lady pops in front of young, svelte me.<g> Most discouraging.<g> I’m told I look between 10-15 years younger than I really am, and think and feel that way usually, aside from when I go in those changing rooms. The handy thing about dressing the way I do in retirement is that I know what size fits as far as tops, both summer and winter, so don’t have to go into changing rooms for them, or for jeans. I only have to try on shorts and cargo pants, leaving my top on, and making sure I don’t look downward until I have the pants on.<g> That way, I can preserve the image that I’m still in my late 40’s, early 50’s…..unless I look at my hands. I seem to be wearing these flesh-coloured spotted, wrinkled gloves. <g> I cared for my face, but forgot my hands, so it seems.

Last topic……husbands. I’m like Carolyn, I had many good years with my husband before he died, have been a widow for over 10 years now and would not consider another marriage, or live-in. Too independent, and I’m not in to taking on the role of cook, cleaner, laundress, nursemaid, Mum, counsellor, etc, at my age.

Bobbie

Hellooo Everybody!

Despite appearances to the contrary, not only have we NOT abandoned this effort, we are, tomorrow, going to begin our Second Reading in Women in Literature, as you can see in the heading, your choice, the Last Gift of Time: Life Beyond 60 ~ Carolyn G. Heilbrun. This is a book of short essays, we're only doing 54 pages the first week, BY a "Feminist," in spades, she is, talking about life, being over 60, what it's like, solitude, and the needs we all have as human beings regardless of age.

If you are interested in Women in Literature, and how they are portrayed, she throws out enough names to keep you going for years, and if you are looking for a provocative discussion on women,in OR out of literature, you need look no further, I urge you to make the acquaintance in the New Year of this woman, just profiled in last Sunday's NY Times, and talk about these issues, starting tomorrow, hope to see YOU there!

ginny

I amy try for the book.. Just way far behind on everything just now. Blame it on CKITM

It's good, Steph, it really is, hahaah and as far as the CKITM, me too, and it's worth it, I think and may lead to something even more!

ginny

Feminist alert! I think anybody remotely interested in women taking control of their lives or feminist issues wants to come over to The Last Gift of Time: Life Beyond 60 and see there a debate on women and women's rights in full cry. That was a good suggestion and it needs YOUR perspectives, you'll never have a better platform, come on over!

ginny

Hello readers! My nomination for a book that will arouse a good discussion is Herland by Charlotte Perkins Gilman.

malass! Welcome, Welcome!
Welcome to our Books & Litreature! Thank you for that nomination, you can see it firmly in the chart in the heading, that's quite a title, isn't it? Sounds like a winner. At the moment we've just started The Gift of Time: Life Beoynd 60, by Carolyn Heilbrun and are only looking at the first 56 pages this week, do join us there if you like?

That's the first so called "Feminist" book I have ever read and I am not having the "correct" response to it, come over and enlighten us!!

So glad you're with us!

ginny

malass You Have come to the right place AS ALL here love good books and like to talk about the books we read and get to know each other it's like being an extended family so you have found a Home with us.
Ginger

I picked up my copy of The Gift of Time: Life Beoynd 60, by Carolyn Heilbrun from the library yesterday. I have some reading ahead of me before I can say anything about the book.

Ginny Ann You have picked up a Winner in the "Gift of Time" I am so glad that You have opted to join us in that discussion. Do Not let the beging discourage you as it does get better as We read. I bought the book to save for whoever goes thru my things or to pass it on.

I see a Winner Poster coming into a Winner discussion. Oh Yes we will be awaiting your Post.

Ginny Ann we will be delighted to hear your ideas on the first 56 pages of the book this week, you can read that in an hour, looking foward to hearing what you have to say.

Feminist alert! What IS a Feminist? We are attempting to address that in the current Helibrun discussion, if you think YOU know, come tell us, it's a great discussion.

ginny

I think I"ve always been one but how to describe it? I don't need a book for that just a look at my own history. . . an insistance on having everything that the boys/men like and have or otherwise "ME TOO". . . . they can still have their goodies but I don't want to be left out. . . . now to get the book. Claire.

I highly recommend a book that our book discussion group just finished, The Many Lives and Secret Sorrows of Josephine B. by Sandra Gulland, (the first in a marvelous trilogy). It made me realize how very little I know of the French Revolution and certainly of Josephine herself. This is an historical novel done with incredibly good research. There's romance, decadence, sorrow and humor. It's a real page turner from the start and you might as well acquire all 3 at once.

"Feminism asks that women be free to define themselves---instead of having their identity defined for them, time and again, by their culture and their men.' (Susan Faludi - Contemporary U.S. writer)

On that note, I totally agree with that quote. However, I will also say that this goes not only for women, but men also. Men are defined by their culture every bit as much as women, and I believe human beings ALL have a right to define themselves, to grow and create in their own unique ways with their unique talents and abilities.

Because I have ALWAYS, from an early age, defined myself, sometimes through periods of confusion but eventually coming into the light at the end of the tunnel, I also believe the feminism of today is not helping women very much in that self-definition. When I look at feminism I see angry controversy, creating more victim thinking, re-writing history with many falsifications, denigration of men----and I don't like it.

I think feminism ought to concentrate not only on women "taking their own power" instead of having it handed to them via men and the courts and endless laws, but that they ought to concentrate on that for ALL human beings. In other words, instead of getting into the present social gutter, pull EVERYONE up to the light. I don't see that in contemporary feminism, I'm sorry to say.

Thank you Diane, that does look good, I am ready for our next reading to be on something we can learn about, perhaps a different culture, what would you all think?

Rose, thank you for that definition of feminism, I really think these are very good points you made:

I think feminism ought to concentrate not only on women "taking their own power" instead of having it handed to them via men and the courts and endless laws, but that they ought to concentrate on that for ALL human beings. In other words, instead of getting into the present social gutter, pull EVERYONE up to the light. I don't see that in contemporary feminism, I'm sorry to say.

Because I have ALWAYS, from an early age, defined myself, sometimes through periods of confusion but eventually coming into the light at the end of the tunnel, I also believe the feminism of today is not helping women very much in that self-definition. When I look at feminism I see angry controversy, creating more victim thinking, re-writing history with many falsifications, denigration of men----and I don't like it.

The recent inspiring song in the pre show of the Super Bowl, You Raise Me Up, just knocked me off my feet and I think that's the kind of thinking that I personally want to espouse, if I can, and the type of people and movements I would like to be around.

Since the official discussion of the Heilbrun book is now over, I'd like to express my extreme....not even sure of the word, sadness at the philosophy of that poor soul, I can't think of her any way else. When you speak of POWER, to me all I saw was lack of it, lack of power to deal with the vicissitudes of life when she had all of the accoutrements and gifts of success including those she had worked for.

Some people see her choosing to commit suicide as a choice and power. I don't see it that way, at all.

Her story depressed me so much that on my recent birthday, I found myself for the first time ever on a birthday, depressed. It seemed that this huge chasm opened up of the future, death, you name it, there it was, it did not help that somebody who went back more than 40 years with my husband passed away on Monday, and upon reflection, so many are gone who would have wanted to know. We all saw something different in that book, we all got different opinions, she so depressed me that I barely got thru my own birthday and that's a first, and it's something I don't need repeated.

I'm going to be very careful who I read next, because depression of the spirit (several said she was not depressed) is something apparently it's hard to get over.

Strength needs to translate to one's own spirit too or it's not strength at all.

That's my opinion, what's yours?

I mentioned the song You Raise Me Up and how I thought it was about the most inspirational thing I ever heard. Thanks to Judy Laird for this link you can hear him sing it, if you click on this and your computer will allow, It's called You Raise Me Up, click here You Raise Me Up by Josh Goban

The lyrics go:

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... to more than I can be.

I cannot see why you see the book as the reason for your depression.You disagree with her outlook, I can see that, what I cant see is why that should depress you. You strike me as one of Gods special beings who will wring every drop of joy and fulfillment out of life and leave longing for more. That is a wonderful way to be. It does not however discount the CH way as another possibility. I am sure she would not begrudge you your take on life.

I do not have your wonderful joie-de-vivre, and find myself at 61 needing to venture out less and less, wishing to lake part less and less, loving quiet and real solitude, and actually looking toward the end of my life with peace and expectation. I do not mean to suggest I am ready to die just yet, or that I could ever actually take my own life only that I see CH's point of view.

The feminism thing really worries me, because it seems to me to bring division between women and other women. I guess having lived a life where I was at first illused by men, and then married one who has become so entwined in my soul that it is difficult to define where I end and he begins, I wish this for all women. The reality is that here in this small rural area at least this is so far from the case and that breaks my heart, because the attitude, of women being less than men, is so entrenched that real change seems almost impossible. That depresses me.

Anneo

I guess I fall somewhere between Ginny and Anneo. When I think of Carolyn Heilbrun, it will always be with the pleasure I found in reading her mysteries. I have read a little of her criticism and I applaud her for starting a new way of looking at literature.

I don't find her suicide especially depressing although it is not a choice I think I would make for me. I think in places her view of getting older is realistic. We do lose energy as we age as well as some physical ability. Even without serious illness, we are not what we were at say thirty. I don't find that depressing either. It is simply a part of life. I am glad to be alive even though I am now in my sixties. I've been glad to be alive when I was younger too. There's always something out there that grabs my interest and I am infinitely curious.

However, as Anneo says, I find that I don't socialize as much as I once did and that I feel free not to join in an activity if it isn't especially appealing.

Maryal

The Last Gift of Time was a disappointment, and I really didn't like it. I think the discussion was far better than the book.

Because I truly didn't care what happened to Carolyn Heilbrun and wasn't interested in what she said about her life, what she wrote about herself and her hypotheses didn't mean much of anything to me. If she wanted to kill herself, so be it. That's not my problem or decision, it was hers.

I'm glad I read Heilbrun's Poetic Justice at the same time as reading this book because it redeemed this woman's writing in my eyes.

As far as feminism is concerned, Heilbrun didn't tell me much. I'm strong enough in myself that I don't need to join that parade any more, though I do support certain feminist causes. Thirty-five years ago I did need what I read and learned about feminism, which affected me in both positive and negative ways.

My attitude about life and aging is far different from Heilbrun's. As I said in the discussion, I see my life as phases with one sliding into another, each one bringing something new and different to and for me. I was very busy when I was young, and I'm a very busy old woman. Hopefully, I'll be able to work until I die. If I can't, I'll face that situation when it arises.

Mal

Amazing!!! How different we all are!! I regret recommending this book for discussion. Ginny, I wouldn't have you depressed, especially as a result of a book I recommended for anything. Please accept my deepest apologies. I saw this as a peek inside a mystery author... with inside gossip about May Satron, who also fascinates me... those were the pieces that got my attention. I left the book so thankful she had not chosen to end her life... then found she had died... and then she had taken her own life. We each internalize what we read in such different ways... I guess that can be my only explaination.

Lou

LOU!! Don't you DARE apologize or I will shut up in a heart beat! The BOOK recommendation was great! We have always said that it's not about liking or disliking the book, but that we LEARN something from every book we read. And we did, and it was one of the best discussions BECAUSE of the cordial disagreements? But it's over.

I wouldn't take anything for having read it, I'm glad I did, I'm glad you recommended it, I had never heard of her, now I have, I'm more educated and informed, but now that it's over the issues that book on WOMEN IN LITERATURE raised I really want to talk about, if you guys will or can?

Can we talk?

Anneo, bless your heart you see everything and everybody thru your own golden perspectives, you say

I cannot see why you see the book as the reason for your depression. You disagree with her outlook, I can see that, what I cant see is why that should depress you.

OK answer me this, all of you? Answer me this?

What's the ONE emotion you feel forwards Heilbrun as a result of reading this book?

Well two emotions?

I feel great sadness and compassion for this wounded bird of a human being, the poor in spirit, or was she?

WAS she?

Or was she something else?

How is this woman portrayed in literature BY HERSELF?

I don't…I don't understand your use of the word "begrudge," our Anneo? I don't begrudge her her take on life? I feel such sadness over it, but…is that begrudging? I regret it, I feel such compassion for this poor creature, can we discuss in what ways she, and WE are poor, because I think it's weakness on my part that makes me feel this way? I wanted more from her. I wanted to look up to her and her wisdom as….and it's not there, and what IS there, seen thru her eyes, is frightening?

Maryal, I think we all feel that need for solitude. I felt it at 37 when we moved to this isolated farm. Let's talk about, Anneo, will you talk…if you want, let's talk about ourselves here for once in apposition to the solitude we saw in the Helibrun, let's do? I am writing this sitting on top of a hill in total peace and solitude. When I was 37 I retired from teaching because in the midst of an exciting career this farm came up for sale and we bought it for the boys so they could have that experience growing up, and for us, because it was what we wanted and it cost me that career as it was too far, even in the same county, to commute. And I really enjoy, have come to prefer, the solitude and peace.

Anneo had a really good thing on the end of her post about how far women and men have come and what she sees around her, I'd like to talk about that, too. I'd like to hear what YOUR days are like where YOU are and what's important to YOU.

Maryal speaks of being infinitely curious and being glad to be alive. It's true we are older, I reject the idea (and I may change my mind) that this gift is ours to….the woman was totally self absorbed, don't you bleed for her? I wanted to put my arm around her.

Think for a moment about SeniorNet?

Look at us here, exchanging viewpoints and trying to understand. Of us in the group, one of us is in the Outback of Australia! One of us is a distinguished professor of Literature (Maryal). Where, I ask you WHERE would you have had the chance to talk to either of these fine articulate and thinking people, if NOT for SeniorNet? Would our paths ever have crossed?

Since those paths have crossed and Malryn and Lou typing there in North Carolina not all that far from me and me typing here in South Carolina on a farm out in the middle of nowhere, we'd NEVER have met and we'd never have had the benefit of your opinions and it's YOUR opinions I seek to counteract the …. what we just read.

Malryn when you mention feminism, what do you see Heilbrun as saying in that book about it…I keep coming back to Mountain Rose, all right answer me this? I'm ASKING for input not challenging? I really need to hear your opinions?

Is one of the hallmarks of feminism strength?

Does Heilbrun in that book show strength? If so where? What was it?

Is killing yourself when your husband is out walking the dog strong?

What's the ONE main emotion you felt about her after you read the book?

I really want to know? Seriously.

You push so, you make me weep with joy to be a woman. Do you not see that we are here discussing because Lou saw something in this woman. Even those who are not impressed with Heilbrun are posting wonderfully thought out reasons for their position.

My emotion toward CH is gratitude. I do not offer it lightly. I cannot see her as wounded because her path is different than mine. I say begrudge, because to be sad about her choice is in my view to somehow lessen it. The more I read of her works the more I admire her.

To kill oneself, alone, and without a sense of a hereafter seems to me to take incredible will, and the tenet of my particular faith that I most try to adhere to is "judge not, lest you be judged". In our senior years we should have learned well, that there are many ways, not all of them ours.

As for your perception of Heilbrun, somehow coming from weakness Ginny, all I can say is, you have got to be kidding. You are a strong woman. My reason for questioning your depression over the book, was simply because for the last few weeks I had been almost overcome by depression.The reasons were as varied as they were inexplicable and I dont intend to air them here. I would venture to say, however difficult assessing Heilbrun and Wally Lamb may have been for some of us neither the weak nor faint hearted would have survived.

Anneo

I feel that at least CH became Amanda Cross on occasion and wrote wonderful mysteries. I enjoyed her heroine very much, although I am not the sort of person she portrayed at all. Suicide does not seem to be an option for me. I embrace life.. I have alowed at 66 and my increasing deafness is becoming more and more of a problem. But still life is out there and gives me great joy in the strangest of times. Lets read a happy woman.. with strong ideals.. One of my favorite women of literature is Margaret Mead.. Has anyone else read Blackberry Winter ,, a biography or the later one that I have forgotten the name of ( darned memory thing). She reached out and chose her life.. Chose husbands, careeers, life styles.

GINNY, I don't feel as if Carolyn Heilbrun was weak in spirit. As I look at what she accomplished in her life, I don't think she was weak at all, selfish and self-centered maybe, but not weak. No weak woman would have stood up to the traditions at that university, or have fought so hard for tenure until she won.

As an agnostic who has had strong doubts about the existence of God, I understand where she was coming from. Not being able to lean on anything but one's faith in oneself is difficult, to say the least. That person questions everything -- or should -- including her beliefs, always leaving room for doubt. I think Heilbrun didn't ask enough questions, she was so sure she was right. By being so, she put herself in the same category as the men she thought held her back so much.

Any woman who has strength in herself is a feminist, in my opinion, whether she chooses to go out and have a career, or whether she lives on a farm, milks cows, does the wash, and puts three meals on the table for her family and the hired man, or whether she works on an assembly line in a factory.

Annoyance was the emotion I felt, not just at the end of the book, but through the whole thing. I have a great admiration for brains, people who use them, and scholarship. It seemed to me that Carolyn Heilbrun spent so much of her time and energy blaming men for her status in life as a woman that she wasted precious minutes, days, months, years which could have been put to better use of the mind she had.

She created her own isolation, and what good did it do? Rather looking at and talking to the plain ordinary housewife who has wisdom about being a woman, she went after stars like Steinem hoping for someone who'd share her views. Rather than studying the history of what sociological factors have made women the "second sex", she turned her energies toward negatives, like downgrading and hating men.

This is a childish thing to do, if feminists like Heilbrun would only realize it. It detracts from the purpose of what I think is real feminism -- that is, standing tall and proud in the fact that we are women without having to tear down anything else, like men, or wallowing in self-pity and licking self-aggravated wounds.

Heilbrun's killing herself didn't show strength to me. It was her own particular statement. As a child would do, she didn't like the idea of growing old, and she wasn't going to put up with it. By killing herself, she tried to show the world that she once again was right.

Heilbrun reveals a good deal of narrow-mindedness in this book. Her view of the world extended only just so far and no farther. She let herself stand in the way of what she professed she wanted to do. In my opinion, any person who will not listen to what others say and think, who does not question the righteousness of her own conclusions, is seriously lacking and does not truly learn. Carolyn Heilbrun defeated herself.

Mal

Regarding Ginny's questions:

"Is one of the hallmarks of feminism strength?" -- I'm not sure strength has to do with feminism. I think it has more to do with being fully human and self-realization as a human being. Doing what you have to do with the cards life deals you. I don't think CH did that very well. She accomplished much, and as Mal said, taking on the powers at the university is a form of strength, but in the end she fizzled out with regard to her own life and acted like a spoiled child. I think we are all that way to some extent because we all have many facets of strength and weakness. It was just that, since she herself put them on paper, we were able to see them. I don't blame her, but I do feel sorry for her. With all that intelligence she had more to offer to herself.

Does Heilbrun in that book show strength? If so where? What was it? -- Yes, in some areas of her life she does, such as when she takes on the university. But to me it looks like she had plenty of strength for those things that were outside of herself, and very little strength for those things that made up her personal life. A book or a conversation, or even here with our posts, we only show one FACET of who we are, but human beings are complex with many facets and we see only the facet the light shines onto in a moment of time. Because she wrote that facet of herself down, it has become permanent, and I personally did not like that facet of her from the beginning. I may have liked many other facets of her that she never revealed in the book though.

"Is killing yourself when your husband is out walking the dog strong? -- Personally I don't think killing oneself is strong at any time. I think living to the end takes strength. To me, killing oneself is the coward's way out, especially in her case where there wasn't even any illness. It shows amazing self-centeredness, almost like "I'll show 'em all!". I do wonder how her husband must have hurt. He's the one I wanted to comfort.

What's the ONE main emotion you felt about her after you read the book? -- That she was a human being with flaws like any other human being, but that she had nothing of importance to say to me, and no wisdom to impart. That doesn't make her bad. It doesn't mean I don't respect her as a human being. It simply means that when I read I search for wisdom or knowledge, something I didn't know before or an insight I didn't have before, and she had nothing like that to impart to me from the get-go. But I felt no depression that she killed herself. It was simply her choice, chosen very rationally on her part, a choice I cannot imagine making no matter how difficult life gets. I suppose if one has no religious conviction one even has a right to make such a choice.

I have spent the day re-reading Writing A Woman’s Life, trying to see if CH left clues there to what she wrote in Last Gift of Time. The date of WAWL is 1988… and LGOT is 1997… WAWL is about writing biography/autobiography of women and it made sense to me to re-read to see if I could pick up on what CH had written about herself in LGOT. I found no clues, insights into CH, but it is a good read. ( Ginny, there is a neat chapter, at least I like it, on Dorothy Sayers… she mentions Gaudy Nights especially.)

Over the years working in a high school, there were times when a student died… whether by their own hand, in an accident, or otherwise… It was always an intense time for the student body… I know our son was depressed for a long time when a young lady he knew, but was not at all intimate with, died… Students talked about suicide… memorial services were held... pages were dedicated in the yearbook, no matter if the student died in kindergarten or junior or senior year…

As hubby and I go about our days, here where we transplanted ourselves when he retired from the army, we are very aware we have ‘only’ been in this small town/county for 20+ years… we are transplants and will never belong here according to natives… The two of us have lived in lots of places and added friends from each place… and found over the years that if we hear from one person when we leave we have a true friend… but it is the team of the two of us that have made lemonade from lemons… been fast friends that travel together… most of our time is spent together… I’ve played enough cards and had enough tea and coffee with ‘other wives’ over the years… so my days are filled with books and projects that feed my spirit… mostly alone or with him.. occasionally seeing a local friend… and of course, try to interact with others at seniornet, usually not successfully...

I think the most honest response I can give to my emotions when we finished the discussion of LGOT was bewildered… CH was a bright, talented woman… it’s a shame she is no longer with us… but I can accept her decision, even though it is a sad one.

Lou