I didn't realize that he was the author of "Learning to Bow," which we had in our school library -- about his experiences teaching English in Japan.

Looking forward to the discussion.

Ah another Webtver, Nice to see you.

Ginger

At the bottom of the article are some promising links to different articles and histories of the different faiths. I particularly think you would enjoy reading about the "Dome of the Rock" and its history. The photos of the Dome inside and out are quite beautiful.

Abraham and his story interested me because of the connections with the three main faiths of the world. I knew about Isaac and Ishmael and a little of their histories but am fascinated by this combining of the three faiths' Abrahamic histories.

Whether these are true stories makes no difference as these are the myths(traditions) that many people have lived by for thousands of years.

As to the pages in the book, I am helpless to figure those out so will tell you that I am on the 2nd CD and just starting into the discussion titled "Isaac" which is the last half hour of the 2nd CD. Can anyone tell me what the first group of pages covers and how far I should listen?

I just got my copy yesterday at the Regional Library after Amazon kept moving the ship date of my order back and back. So, have not had a chance to get into it yet. My biblical knowledge is very limited, and most of it from the childhood Hurlbut's Story of the Bible. Ella, my knowledge of Abraham about equals yours, though I never really questioned it. I didn't know he was the father of three religions.

Why read this? It's there and we are discussing it. I would probably never pick this book to read on my own, but I learn so much from these discussions. And as Lou so aptly put it, "Can a study of Abraham help find a way through the mine fields, literal and figurative, of the Middle East?" It can only help.

I'm a baptized Lutheran, confirmed Methodist turned Presbyterian for 30 years. For ten years I belonged to an inter-denominational church in San Juan, PR, and an ecumenical approach to religion is what I favor. As a 12-year-old Guatemalan said to my daughter, "Hay un Dios, verdad?" I'm glad we will be having different perspectives from different faiths while discussing this book.

Not boring at all for me as I took every word in and am thinking about it all.

1. There are no direct historical records substantiating the fact that Abraham ever lived.

2. What we know indicating his existence and the details of his life is based on oral stories coming to us through the mist of some 38 centuries (from about 1800 BCE).

3. There are substantial differences in the details accepted by each of the three Abrahamic faiths resulting from different, often diverse, interpretations by each of these faiths.

4. Modern Archaeological and historical research studying ancient Fertile Crescent Cultures in the 2nd millennium CBE have discovered evidence of migration patterns and other parallel contemporary historical events that are consistent with the stories giving substance (but short of actual proof) to the existence of Abraham as an individual or a composite and basic truth of the stories.

pedln, I find that if I have a map laying here on desk, I can follow Abraham's journey easier. Glad you were able to print it.

Thank You for the clickable to The Dome Of The Rock as it does sum up how the three religions are seving the same God but are using different names at different times and places.

The book Abraham was a good book to read and very informative but the minds of Each and Everyone of you add so much more understanding to it like adding fuel to a fire. I am so enjoying your posts.I do have the map printed out, Thanks for it.

"Before there was time, there was water, and a darkness covered the deep. A piece of land emerged out of the water. That land is the Rock and the rock is here (Jerusalem). Adam was buried here. Solomon built here. Jesus prayed here. Muhammed ascended here. Abraham came here to sacrifice his son."

99 NAMES OF God

I I am a Christian that Loves God with All my Heart, mind and soul and do believe that God sent me to that articule for a reason because he Knows that we want to understand what is going on at this time and has a purpose for it and wants us to understand each other and I do believe that the Book Abraham's Journey Thru Three Faiths is defintly a good start.

Persian

I have seen you in person at the Book Gathering in DC and I have seen your posts in the Graditude discusions long before that as I go there also and have for a few years so feel that I know you better than I know some of my blood relation.

OH how I love Senior Net with it's conection of People from ALL OVER THE WORLD getting to know each other.

Let there be Peace on earth and let it begin with God thru me/us and a place called Senior Net.

With much love I remain part of All of the family of God and S/N

Ginger

It is So Good to see you here and I thank You for coming in to this discussion as you are one of the first persons I met on S/N and have been So Much Help to me and I apprieciate it. I will be waiting for your input on this discusion.

With Much Apprieciation I remain you S/N sister,

Ginger

I agree with Justin that it is a conflict over land -- but a particular piece of land which represents a religious or cultural thought in their mind.

Why is it that a significant number of Jewish Americans leave America to settle in Israel and put their lives in danger? They can look over the hill and say "that's where the Israelites did such and such millennia ago."

Robby

Does the phrase "holy war" mean that the person perpetrating a 'holy war', thinks that that war is approved by God? The human race is so peculiar!

Rah, rah, for Ginger!

I feel like I am in a history class and must go back to studying!

For me, the term "myth" pertains to the religious and cultural beliefs and practices of a particular group.

"Ur, which flourished in the third millennium B.C. and is identified in the Bible as the birthplace of Abraham. In the 1920's and '30's a British-American team excavated a royal cemetery in which members of a powerful social elite were buried with their servants and exquisitely wrought possessions. Ur's most spectacular feature, though, is its immense ramped ziggurat, or tower, the best-preserved in Iraq."

The the Fertile Crescent was very interesting.

It was in the News so don't blame me if it is not so and I hope you Ella, Harold and all don't mind this long post that is not about the Book?

Smart 3 yr old Arab community rallies to aid gifted 3-year-old By DAVID GOODMAN Associated Press Writer Bachar DEARBORN, Mich. -- Most adults would have trouble keeping up with 3-year-old Bachar Sbeiti. He speaks Arabic, English and French. He can identify the flags and capitals of countries from Djibouti to Sweden. He can recite Islam's 99 names for God. "Bachar is just an amazing kid," said Maysoon Khatib, a fund-raiser for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. So amazed was Windsor, Ontario, family doctor Henry Clarke that he warned Hala Sbeiti that her son needed a special school to let his genius develop. "His exact words were: 'Use it or lose it,' " said Hala Sbeiti, a 32-year-old native of Lebanon who now lives in Windsor. So amazed were leaders of the 300,000-member Arab community across the Detroit River in southeastern Michigan that they decided to underwrite his education at the exclusive Roeper School. "Bachar's talent is a gift from God," Lebanon Consul General Mohamad Skayni told 60 people at a fund-raising reception for the boy on Thursday night. "But this gift won't become something concrete ... unless we look after it, unless we nurture it." "We want Bachar to grow among us, to get acquainted with our beliefs, our value system ... and then he will be free to be who he wants to be," Skayni said. So far, the scholarship drive has raised enough money to pay one year's tuition at Roeper, a private pre-K to 12th-grade school of 630 in the Detroit suburb of Bloomfield Hills. The immediate goal is to raise enough for three years, or about $45,000. "We truly have an exceptional kid," said Ghanim Al-Jumaily of Life for Relief and Development, one of the charities raising money for Bachar. "We truly want to pay attention to him." An exceptional kid. But still a kid. As the speeches continued, Bachar, dressed up in a vest and bow tie, wandered among the tables, oblivious to the fuss he was generating. "Mama, Mama," he called out after briefly losing sight of Hala Sbeiti. Being mother to a prodigy is hard work, the divorced mother said. "He talks 24 hours a day. He's always asking questions," Hala Sbeiti said. At bedtime one night, Bachar asked her for the capital of Sweden. She said she did not know and would find out in the morning. Bachar did not want to wait that long. "I called my brother, and he told me" that it was Stockholm, his mother said. "I told Bachar, and he was satisfied." Once Bachar asked his mother what happened to the sun at night. She said it rested while the moon came out. One rainy day, he confronted her: "Mommy, you lied. It's raining and there is no sun and no moon." Hala Sbeiti speaks mostly Arabic to her son, knowing that he gets lots of exposure to English from others. She also speaks to him in French, and he is mastering all three. Whatever the language, Bachar misses little that is said around him. Playing around the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee's Michigan office, he kept up a steady conversation with the office workers. "He sure talks a lot," Khatib said in English to a co-worker. "I don't talk a lot. I know a lot," Bachar responded -- in Arabic. Sometimes, Bachar tires of the attention. He balked at a television reporter's request that he show off his geographic prowess. "They're looking at me like a monkey," Khatib quoted him as saying. Roeper, meanwhile, is eagerly awaiting Bachar's arrival, admissions director Lori Zinser said. On Feb. 20, he and his mother visited the school. "We were instantly able to see that he is extremely bright, gifted," said Zinser, who admitted him on the spot. He is expected to start next week. His mother said she is excited about the opportunity ahead for her son, as well as the chance to go back to work while he is in school. She said she was overwhelmed by the response to Bachar's special needs. "I am really so proud of the generosity of my community," she said. "They really secured Bachar's future."

Many of this early patriarchs lived very long lives although the reproductive period of women doesn't seem to have been much different from ours. Sarah was considered too old to have a child but pretty enough to attract other men. These are just some things I think about when I am considering these and some of the other people in the Bible. It must have taken so much courage to leave the comforts of home and a prosperous city. (I have recently moved and that's no fun at all!)

I lost my post to you some how but any way The cutting off of the penis took me aback but knew what was meant so said nothing. The 3 yr. old is amazing to me as I was still wetting the bed at that age.

Harold

I do think the 3 yr. old will be taken good care of and be what he is meant to be.

You write I also read every post in here.

Alf

I remember also a message of you meeting Bruce Feiler at the Sarasota Book Festival. Go Girl Go, Tell us more.

Thank You for the meaning of jihad as I did not know it meant struggle and maybe some others did not either. AH this coming together is a very leaning experiece. I love it.

Muslim Children as are being lead astray the same as the rest of the World's Children.

Well said. I also believe that genetically we all stem from the same root and I believe that research done recently explained how we are, who we are, genetically today.

Harold

I also hope the 3 year old has a long life and is a positive person on earth.

Abraham and his surviving brother take wives; then Terah (their father) assembles the entire clan and decamps for Canaan (Israel). They arrive in the ancient crossroads of Haran, near Syria, where they settle. Far from random, this travel pattern is consistent with the lives of pastoral nomads, who traversed the region with herds, passed time near settled lands, then migrated to other places. (The Bedoin tribes still do, I believe - maybe others, ones in Afghanistant?)

Ancient documents describe an interactive society, in which wandering tribes were never far from urban areas, where they bought and sold goods. The Bible alludes to this lifestyle, calling Abraham a Hebrew and an Aramean. These and other variants, Aramu and Arabu, were common terms for "seminomad" until they were replaced with the catchall "Arab.">

Safe travel and may you hear the flutering of the Aunties around you.

Lou2, I too have been wondering about that story of the Abraham and the fiery furnace. I thought that story was about another bibilical figure. Like, Daniel? I will go look it up elsewhere. Here is a Judaism page and an explanation of the fiery furnace which is long but worth reading. Abraham-FieryFurnace

Notice that the story is in the Midrash. Now, I have to look that up!

And once again, Abraham-Idols-Fiery Furnace

. The Sumerians built their temples on platforms, one platform on top of another, some temples reaching higher than others, apparently to reach nearer to heaven. These temples have been called ziggurats. Images of Ziggurats: at Ur, at Babylon.

I read the link on Abraham-Fiery Furnace and so apprieciate it as I had Never heard about it. Now to check out your link on Midrash.

"The Jewish people received two Torah's at Mount Sinai. One was the Written Torah (a.k.a. the Five Books of Moses) while the other is known as the Oral Torah as it was not written down and was kept as an oral tradition. In time, because the Jews were being scattered throughout the world in our hard exile from the Land of Israel, the Oral Torah was also committed to paper, and it could be that the story of Abraham smashing the idols (which is a true story) was committed to paper at that time. Nevertheless, even though it was written down at that time, the origin of the story goes back to the time of Abraham."

And that picture of a ziggurat is great!

Lou, I think archeologists would be hoping right now that some of those historical sites will not be destroyed, don't you? Or artists, architects - everyone who loves old sites, old buildings. I know I love them and it always saddens me that a city will destroy the old to build anew, for example, our own train station, which had so much history. My husband left from there (as did hundreds of others) to go to WWII - he spent three days on the train to get to the west coast, San Diego, where he was trained to be a signalman in the Navy.

"All three religions joined in this interpretive process, though Jews necessarily came first, probably beginning around the third century B.C.E……In an elaborate, historical psychoanalysis, the children of Abraham slowly re-created the story of their forefather's early life in an effort to better understand their own. …….This process initiates a rich paradox: God may have made humans in his image; we humans made Abraham in ours."

Ihad very long post for you pertaining to the three yr old child and the some about me but it would not post and kicked off of S/N and I became a Guest on S/N but am Back with all but just cannot remember at this time what I said but will think on it.

Ann

I wonder what will be said about this and will wait for some to give there opinons as this not just a Christian discussion.

Ginger

To all who have provided links to help our understanding, thanks. In an earlier discussion (Seven Sisters) we had a link in the heading that linked to the many links that were provided throughout the discussion. Would is be possible to have something like that here? It would be very helpful.

Mahlia, I'm grateful for your explanation of jihad, and for your information about Arabs and Muslims. I remembered some of that from what you provided in the discussion of "House of Sand. .", but it was good to see it again, in depth. Thank you.

I have grown pertaining to religion and have now found that I love God (remember God has many names in different languages) and hope to achive the purpose in life that God has for me.

Ann

I believe that God is a Spirit and be whatever God chooses as God created us man and women right and can do whatever in our lives If we let it work. I do believe that God has allowed me to have a part of that Spirit. I pray (just the spoken word and not repletion get an answer from his spirit. Be Gods answer good or bad and accept God's answer.

We have many creature that are both Male and Female and do have the ability to reproduce such as the seahorse en al. So Who knows but I guess we will find out later.

Still searching, Ginger

So Good to see you here. I Will be Watchin to see Your post and thoughts on this Very Special discussion.

So Good to see you here. I Will be Watchin to see Your post and thoughts on this Very Special discussion.

Thank You so much for saying that I am an inspireration.

I do not understand When you say make a beliver out of me as I am just telling things from my point of view and stating the facts as I know them wanting to understand so Much more.

This is about a book of three faiths and I want to learn and that is why I read and enjoy S/N and S/N Books and Literature so much.

Your S/N sister, Ginger

The caves are very interesting as as I was looking at them I thought Well guess I will be in a cave then but oh the different words that mean the same thing as I think today my cave is called a mausoleum. Please Smile everybody. My name and birth date is on my Cave.

Ginger

I like your answer to is God male or female and it makes sence to me. Thank You for posting your thoughts on this.

I apprieate Jonathan's information also and am looking forward to hearing more.

Ginger

Carolyn, what a powerful story you have told. How did that young man live the rest of his life after his dream? IMHO, there are many people all around us who are standing and serving quietly then leaving us with the example of their lives. Have they been 'called'? Maybe, maybe not.

Not to bring up another belief, since we are dealing with these three for now, I can't help but remember Sidhartha(Hindu?) and his 'call' to the difficult task of achieving "humility" which he seemed to equate to perfecting his life. If I am remembering correctly, he kept returning to this life until he was humble.

Back to Abraham who is the Father of these three faiths. Even if he were a legend, would it matter? We all may need a "hero" to follow and that's what the three beliefs here seem to do. Isn't there a book about the many faces of God? "The Hero of a Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell?

This waxing and waning of scholars' attitude to history verses myth is an interesting phenomenon. This "higher criticism" of historicity of many areas, Homer, Christ, Shakespeare, and even Abraham comes and goes as George Steiner acknowledged. He noted that "the higher criticism assumed that if a text was very ancient or had been often reproduced, it would necessarily be corrupt. We are no longer so sure."[9] The criticism against Homer, Christ and Abraham dealt with the lack of evidence as proof of the mythological aspect of these stories. Yet, for all the talk, it turns out that Troy was very real.[10] In fact, the search for Troy inevitably led to the further serious, scientific investigation that Atlantis (of all things!)was Troy with Eberhard Zangger's excellent work.[11] Granted this is a most interesting twist, the idea here is that historic reality may be behind the myths all along after all. New attitudes to ancient ideas, usually pawned off as just old myths or stories, are now determining that many ancient areas once thought of as old wives tales are actually historic verities, such as Abraham, Enoch, Moses and the Patriarchal Histories and even Jesus. Erich Auerbach's famous comparison of Homer and Abraham revealed that the Biblical narrative was based on solid historical reality with Abraham in fact, being a real individual.[12] This interplay of myth verses historic reality is an ever ongoing discussion, and there is enough new material to justify itemizing in a footnote.[13]

I agree with you that if the one God chooses to do his work and the person of his own Free will will not. God will find someone who will. God does let us make our own discisions. Thanks God. With All Due Respect I remain Your Servant.

Ginger

One of the reasons we here seem to be so comfortable discussing this topic is that most of us have our faith(in whatever we believe in) under control and seem happy with where we are. Isn't is nice? Ahhhhh, I love it!! A perk of being old than dirt!! As Lorrie would put it!

"The Call is saying that the relationship with God is not a relationship of belonging, it's a relationship of strangeness. We're all aliens. Abraham is blessed-the nations of the world are blessed-because he had the courage to go to another place and make himself a stranger. Because, believe me, at some time in our lives, all of us have to go to another place, too, and make ourselves strangers."

"The Bible is constantly sending people into the desert for redemption, because it's there, away from the ease of settled life, far removed from ready water, that they turn to God for sustenance"

The "call of the desert" is a call to silence and solitude. The "desert" for most of us is not the wilderness of the Sahara, but the call to be quiet and to reflect upon our own salvation: a time to be alone with God. "We all have the desert in our everyday lives. The sand and the sun and heat and lack of water and loneliness may take different forms, but we all experience them: problems, deprivations, physical inconveniences, discomforts and loneliness." (F. Le Clerc) This call is made particularly to those who live in the midst of incessant chatter and noise. If God is to speak, man must be silent. An ancient Egyptian prayer says, "O Thoth, thou sweet well for a man thirsting in the desert. It is sealed up to him who has discovered his mouth, but it is open to the silent. When the silent comes, he finds the well." (2) In the Old Testament, Israel first met Yahweh in the desert, and the story of the desert wandering remained the type of the encounter of man with God.

"Arriving in Egypt, Abraham fears the pharaoh will kill him for Sarah, who is beautiful to behold, so he asks his wife to say she's his sister. She does, and is promptly seduced by the pharaoh, who rewards Abraham with riches and cattle. God then rewards Sarah for her suffering by afflicting the pharaoh with plagues. The pharaoh responds by banishing the family."

What are nomads? The word means people who move from place to place and never settle down. People who live in the desert are called nomads because they must always move from place to place. That is because they live on the milk and cheese produced by their flocks of goats and the meat and wool of their sheep. There never is enough grass in one place for them to stay very long. When the grass is all eaten up, they must move on.

In the desert things change very slowly. So if we could have seen the nomads of Abraham's time, we would not have thought they were very different from the nomads of today.

Your link to Abraham, A Nomad?-Never! was much apprieciate by me who read and learned. I Thank You for it.

I read all of Your link also and understand much more than I had as to what is going on in today's world. Thank You So Much.

Ginger

Yes all striving for the same place but with different language's and different up bringings that is what the Book Abraham A Journey Thru Three Faiths is all about and I do so love each post. I Thank All You for your posts.

The Nomad (State Side) as a Child because of My Father's Job and so it was with Abraham and his Children, Ginger

Edit Going from International Falls Minnesota with all the stops along the way due to Dads job to Key West, Flordia and from DC to the West ah the differance was in All was more than a small child could understand but as an adult Now I see and am learning to understand Why this has happened to me along with this book at this Special Time in our lives.

"Your offspring shall be enslaved in a land not theirs .....but I will execute judgment on the nation they shall serve; and in the end they shall go free...To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates."

Yep I have the Boxes come up and cannot leave so shut down and come back. Hope someone can help us.

Persian, I have printed your very informative link and will now retire to read it.

Since I was only able to get the large print copy of this title, what page are we reading to in it or what section, Ella?

"Though legally Sarah's action is consistent with the ancient practice of surrogate motherhood, morally her act is troubling. The language suggest this. Sarah does not mention the maid's name, nor does she acknowledge that the resulting child might belong to the other woman. …….

Moreover, Sarah takes her maid and gives her to Abraham in an echo of the way Eve takes the fruit and gives it to Adam."

Mahlia, I did print the link that you put up and its an eye opener. I guess I was aware of Ishmael and Isaac and their place in this history of the three faiths but not aware of how all this was resolved inside the different faiths. Thanks for all your explanations and links, they are so helpful and interesting.

1) Islam, followed by more than a billion people worldwide, is the world's fastest-growing religion and will soon be the world's largest;


2) A believer in Islam worships God directly without the intercession of priests or clergy or saints.


3) On Fridays, in addition to daily prayers five times a day, all male believers are required to gather together for the noon prayer and listen to a sermon called a "khutba" in Arabic. In many places today, women also attend Friday worship although they are segregated from the men. – ISLAM by Jonathan Bloom and Sheila Blair

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MAHLILA – OH, you are precious! BOSSY WOMEN! But, is it not true that husbands can divorce wives in the presence of others (men, probably). I have read, but am not sure about the truth of anything that I have read –but if such be true, wouldn't that make the wives a little reticent to speak up and criticize a husband or tell him what to do? Just a thought.

Multiple wives remind me of the Mormons which used to practice the same thing; perhaps some do, but many do not I believe.

A few questions for all of you - what do you think of Sarah's actions toward Hagar? Abraham's reaction to Hagar via Sarah?

How would you feel about all of this if you were in Hagar's place?

Would you feel comforted by God's message? Would you ask God for more?

Perhaps this is irrelevant, but is there any way all of this could have been avoided at the very beginning of this story?

"The wrong done me is your fault! I myself put my maid in your bosom; now that she sees that she is pregnant, I am lowered in her esteem?"

I am willing to believe that Sarah and Abraham were siblings and that it didn't matter in those times. I am also willing to believe Hager was cast out into the desert with Ishmael but timing of all this seems to be in question. How old was Ishmael at that time? How old was Isaac when Abraham was told to slay his favored son? And who was it? Ishmael or Isaac? And, what difference does this make in the continuation of the story/myth/tradition?

Ella, I believe that your description of "jihad" is not the same as Persian's earlier post. I think what she said is that "jihad" is searching for a spirituality in your life and trying to find a divine presence within yourself. So, if I have quoted her correctly, a 'holy jihad' is not a 'holy war' but a 'holy search' for God within us. Is that right, Persian?

Ginger

Persian, thanks for all the explaining about "jihad". I had it partly right but you put it so much better.

There are many versions of Abraham's putting Hagar and Ishmael out in the desert and that he put them right in the place where God gave Moses the 2 tablets of the ten commandments. Also,IMHO, the fact/story/tale that Abraham and Ishmael kept up a relationship throughout their lives makes this whole story more believeable.

I understand jihad much better now and i thank you.  I  now that I search for this myself and as soon as I think it within my grasp-- poof, it changes.

"God had told Abraham and Sarah that they would conceive a son. Obviously, to both of them God took too long. Therefore, Sarah asked Hagar to become a substitute wife and later, a surrogate mother. Abraham went along with it. Their plans were not God's plans. This led to jealousy and all sorts of problematic issues."

The people who lived here started reading Genesis, for example, and they feel, 'Well, it's hard to accept that Abraham is telling Sarah to say she's his sister.'........so they change it. They rewrite the story."

In the absence of land or central Temple being Jewish meant visiting a synagogue, observing law, reading Torah, and studding midrash. In this environment beginning in the centuries after Christ and continuing for the next millennium, Abraham became an important tool to boost the morale of beleaguered Jews and help them withstand the pressure to convert. He became a political figure fighting to preserve Israel.

Abraham has become so exalted that God now sits on Abraham's right. But the rabbis didn't stop at making Abraham semidivine they also made him the Idea human; they made him the first Jew.

Are we depending on a historical myth on which to base our faith in a monotheistic God, or are we going further and deeper, and building our faith on other self understandings, after deciding to accept a monotheistic God?

In order to develop an orderly religion and therefore, convert many to a way of believing, churches are formed. I think one has to look at the history of mankind and see where these ideas have originated. After all, we have Abraham, in charge of a large contingency, probably trying to keep them in line and peaceful, claiming that God spoke to him and this is how its going to be from now on! There will only be one God, because that makes things simpler. We are moving all the time, so now, we don't have to haul all those idols or statues around with us everytime we change locations. We have, as many of us have said, a "portable" God. God within us! So, maybe Abraham is a strong leader, in spite of his kowtowing to Sarah on certain matters. Well, he is human!

To me the most important message that comes from all of the people that Feilor interviews, is one of tolerance and love.

Persian, just to be fecetious, would you call the religions of the ancient world a form of crowd control? Kidding!! kidding!

Even though many of us are lucky enough to have free speech in our home country, as Persian says, when you are in another's country, its wise to watch your words. As it would be in anyone's home here in America. Although I was raised in a Christian atmosphere and church, I have always fought for the "other guy" to believe whatever he wanted. What more can you wish for your fellow travelers but peace and prosperity in this world and the hope of a heaven afterward? Again, IMHO, its trust in a creator that keeps many of us going.

"The Christian interpretation (of Abraham) grew out of the Jewish one and for generations offered a similarly broad message, that Abraham's blessing was open to all people, regardless of lineage. But over time, just as Jews tried to claim Abraham uniquely, Christians attempted to commandeer Abraham for themselves. The deterioration of the relationship between Jews and Christians can be seen as vividly as anyplace else in their rivalry over their shared father."

I like the way Feilor has written the explanation of how Paul went about writing his epistles/letters and why he wrote the way he did. He was proselytising? Setting down the rules for a new theology/religion/sect?

IMHO, for the first time, we have an easy to read and understand book that causes me to look further into this premise. Yes, the book is light but that allows more people to read it and then go on from there. This whole idea is handled lightly and of course, there is so much more to learn.

It is not easy and maybe impossible for all of this old world to agree on much of anything but I think Feilor is making an attempt with his referral to Abraham's momotheism.(Ooops, a Freudian slip?---maybe!)

Here's what my book, Great Religions of the World says about Judaism:

The first prayer the Jew learns as a child and the last he is commanded to say before he dies:"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One."

These trememdous words, uttered to the Jewish people by Moses as the spokesman of God, mark a sharp dividing line in the world's religions. For they created a new concept of God. Not only Judaism, but Christianity and Islam rest on this concept--strict monotheism. That is what sets them apart from the world's other major concepts of divine and human order, i.e., Oriental religions and Greek thought."

Again, there is no mention of Abraham!

"If you look at history, each religion, at different times, for different reasons, tried to establish itself as the dominant religion. Claiming Abraham for yourself is just one way to establish your authority. This power grab usually occurs at historical turning points.

For Jews it was after the Second Temple was destroyed and they had to buttress their sagging identity. For Christians it was after the fall of Rome in the fourth and fifth centuries; when they lost their political protection. It's a psychological need triggered by political circumstances.......You want to show that you've always been there. Abraham is a great way to prove that."

And this one: Essay comparison

I found these yesterday but have been distracted by life and didn't get them in here.

Persian, thanks for the links. They are most helpful.

George, I appreciate your explanations very much. We never stop learning, do we?

Harold, I don't know if making those entries to each subject shorter, or making the whole book longer, might have made it work better.

I definitely agree that there are many other problems between the three religions having to do with ethnicity, home countries, old hurts and old wars. Wouldn't it be great if the problems could be solved as easily as Feilor suggests?

Proseltising? Evangelizing? All the same! If only these people who feel so inclined to "save" me would first ask if I have a church? or a belief? of my own. And look at our poor Mormons or that other religion where the children(18 and up) must give a year or two of their lives to proselitising in unfamililiar cities around the world. Not my cup of tea!

My reaction to all of this is that it appears to me that religion has "invented" by mankind and I will always question it.

Yes, the Catholic Church did try some fence mending in the '60's or even later, and it probably helped with the relations between Judaism and Chatholoism.

When I went to Friday temple here in town, I was amazed at the ceremonies since they were so similar to the Christian ceremonies in their churches.

Back later, its breakfast time!

After the Israelites were freed from slavery in Egypt, is that when they began to be referred to as Israelites?

Yes, Harold, I, too, liked the bishop of Jerusalem. I actually like what he gleaned from most of the people he places in this book.

Another quote from Feilor which has me confused: .....But over time, just as Jews tried to claim Abraham uniquely, Christians attempted to commandeer Abraham for themselves.

I really don't remember being taught that anyone owned Abraham directly.

My eyes are spinning from rereading the chapter about Islam and the Post article about the Shi'ites. I have another question concerning all that. Where did the Ba'ath party come from? Is is the civilian party that is behind Hussein? But they are Sunnis, right?

Back later. Recovering from a sleep over by our 5 yr old granddaughter.

Could Christ have been quoting the Psalms but using them as an example of his misery? And, salvation?Or again, as a fullfillment of a prediction?

Harold, I can't seem to get that link to work. Maybe the net is too busy this morning. I tried a google and had the same problem. Will try later!

In reading this chapter about the Muslims, I find it a simple faith to understand and like, but then we get to the man-made rules! The Five Pillars of Faith? Just a bit much for me but that's okay as everyone to his own likes and dislikes. Our journeys are our own.

That two imams partially disagree doesn't surprise me, as to how the beliefs are supposed to affect a person. One is pro-force and the other is peace inclined. Isn't it a shame when one religion feels that it must push itself onto others who don't believe the way it does. Remember Hawaii? And, the American Indians? All in the name of religion! I am not educated on the Ottoman Empire but am a small product of it as the Moors invaded two of my forbearers home countries. Portugal and Ireland! At least, that's what I have been told. Another google coming up!

Harold, I was finally able to open that link. Thanks, it gave a good explanation of the party.

Harold, as I said above, I am not surprised that the two men disagree somewhat. One for a peaceful resolution, the other, more sure that Islam is THE ONE FAITH. And, I believe they both believe that they are supposed to invite all non-believers to submit to God and become members of Islam. But, as one says, its okay if the non-believers don't become members as long as they live peacefully and continue with their own beliefs. Didn't one of them say that if Feilor continued to practice within the Jewish faith, he would die. And, he went on to say that both the Bible and theTorah promise this end. To say the least, I am slightly confused here. Its okay if we don't believe in Islam but we will die if we don't? What?

IMO, the different religious beliefs accomplish the destruction of the Tower of Babel. Even if we all spoke the same language, we would not be thinking the same thoughts.

IMHO, at one time in the world's history, the Moors( who were believers of Islam) peacefully occupied countries, not trying to force their faith on the natives. And, they improved the places that they occupied. Here is a pretty good link to a historical writing of the occupation of Iberia(Spain and Portugal) by the Moors. Moorish Occupation

I realize that these were peaceful invasions but after they had established themselves, they seem to have improved the country.

In the book, Sheikh Abdul Rauf, a native Kuwaiti who now heads a mosque in NYC, is quoted as saying that most Muslims have yet to experience the economic opportunity or sufficient education to be able to understand, much less implement, the ideals of pluralism and coexistence. He feels and says that American Muslims must redefine Islam to include separation of church and state, as well as human rights.

As to "submission to God" being a way of life for the Islamic, where does one get any answers to daily questions concerning their obligations or obedience to God? Are they permitted to do their own translations of the Koran?

When I was still church active, one of the many things brought up at such small gatherings as prayer groups, was the obligation, by example, of living the Christian way of life. And, couldn't this be true of any religion?

HAROLD - would you mind giving a couple examples of what you consider "liberalizations that would not have been allowed 25 years ago" in Iran.

1997, Kahtami elected (President) in landside win. Mohammad Khatami, a moderate, won an unexpected 70% of the popular vote defeating the stunned conservative who had been considered a shoe-in. This election was confirmed by the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei despite the fact that the Constitution gave him the clear power to veto the election.

1998, Khatami, & Albright signal a warming of relations= Khatami proposed cultural exchanges. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright invites Iranians to join with the U.S. to draw up a "road map leading to normal relations. I think some cultural exchanges have occurred. I have a recollection of an American participation in an Iranian Chest tournament

1999, Khatami Visits Italy, the first visit by an Iranian leader to a Western country in 20 years.

In July 1999 Iranian students crashed with police demonstrating against the closing of a reformist newspaper and proposed legislation restricting the press.

2000, Reformers take control of Parliament winning 70% of the seats in a February election.

2001, Khatami reelected president this time with 80% of the popular vote.

Khatami denounced bin Laden's followers. This was in a post 9/11 interview with an American publication.

Secretary of State Colin Powell and Mohammad Khatami shake hand at a November meeting at the U.N.

2002, In March Iran responds to a U.S. Senate offer for direct talks with American Legislators.

We have had so much information posted here that we could write our own book. Its been extremely enjoyable to share ideas and knowledge(theirs, not mine) with everyone especially georgehd and mahlia but others also like Babi, Kiwi, Ginger, Harold and all those whose names have slipped the squishy boundries of my mind.

Ginger, what a beautiful post! Thanks for that!

As I said earlier, way back, I am glad that I read the book and was able to discuss it with such knowledgeable posters. I would not know so many new things if we hadn't spent this time together. Thanks Ella and Harold. 'Youse guys are greaaaaaaaaaaaat!

"I believe if I'm going to die, or be shot, it's my destiny. God wants me to die at this moment. Even if I'm at home, then I'll die. So why should I be afraid to go to dangerous places? This is what helps suicide bombers kill themselves. They believe it's their destiny."(p.191)

Thanks again to all who have done such a good job of proving that we can discuss differences peacefully.

I do have a question for Carolyn and anyone from Australia. What are those two countries doing right that allows for peaceful coexistence among different ethnicities and religious beliefs?

And, has anyone been watching the Chinese experience on American Experience on PBS this week? We have so much to learn!

I am going to try to continue to read about this subject here and on the net but I am bowing out due to getting ready for Curious Minds new topic. Come join us with what I hope will be a positive and upbeat sharing of "High Hopes" in our world today.

Ann, who is 1/2 Irish!

I am reading a NG article on Inside Islam(an old issue-1/02) and there is such an impressive map of the world(mainly the Middle East) marked with the numbers of Muslims in all of these countries plus a simple history of the area on Faith and Politics: A Volatile Mix.

"Islam is a couple of hundred years behind......In the same way that American Catholics shaped Vatican II, and American Jews influence world Judaism with modern ideas like the Reform movement, American Muslims must redefine Islam to include separation of church and state, as well as human rights. The future of Islam lies in the West, in a prosperous community of believing Muslims who have a strong, open-minded voice."

I am going to read your link but wanted to say that I went into the "Islam" folder and felt, once again, that we all have much to learn. I also watched a short discussion on BookTV with Terrence Ward and his book, "Searching for Hassan" which I will try to get at my library. He brought up the possibility of Islamic Democracy in Iran (of all things!!) I wish I had gotten in on the talk in the beginning as he seems pretty well versed on the topic.

I like Ella's idea to leave this site open to see if we want to go on discussing this topic.

Harold, your comment about the possibility of the author frantically searching for an ending to his book left me laughing. I wondered about that also.

May our Children learn to live together understanding there back ground and others so that there will peace on earth and for me I know there will be.

Would America have thanked the British if they had invaded the South to stamp out slavery? Americans had to change this themselves from within.

I agree with Carolyn that probably we should just continue here with our discussion where no one seems put off with honest feelings and opinions.

The latest link is an eye-opener, isn't it? When I was reading a book about Russia(fiction) once, the thing that stood out for me was the openness with which people discussed politics in that country before the revolution. And, when you are in England, the same thing seems to be prevalent. As brash as we(US) seem to be, we are reluctant to freely discuss our feelings about government and country when it is in the "mess" that it is in, at the moment. Well, not everyone. I do remember that many discussed VietNam and marched against it.

A question: I remember a lady, wife of the leader of South Vietnam?, coming here and appearing at a Congressional meeting, begging us to do something before the Chinese and North Vietnamese took over. She cried that the French were desserting them in their hour of need. Is my memory faulty here?

BriefIslam GuideIncluded at the site is the whole book, "A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam".

Maybe if we could get the leaders out of the loop, the people of the feuding countries could solve their problems without going to war. But, most people would want to look to a more learned person to get problems solved. That's where the Imams and Rabbis come in, isn't it? As to our sparse knowledge of the Middle East, conversely, they really have a warped view of us also.

What if the oil weren't there, in Iraq, would this be happening? And along with it, the misunderstanding of the two cultures?

The link that I posted was only a suggestion so that anyone who needed a reference for Islam, it would be there and they wouldn't have to "google" for it!