All Over But the Shoutin ~ Rick Bragg ~ 5/03 ~ No Export

"There's one thing for sure about the life story of New York Times national correspondent and Pulitzer Prize winner Rick Bragg, as he tells it in this angry memoir: He hasn't had it easy. All Over but the Shoutin' details a childhood spent dirt-poor and fatherless in Alabama, protected by a loving mother who sacrificed everything for her children. It's the story of a have-not, resentful of the haves, who overcomes crushing limitations to become a newspaper reporter and who eventually scrambles his way into a job at what he calls "the temple" of his profession, the New York Times. In the end he triumphs, buying his mother the decent house she's always wanted -- with cash." - - - - - Stephanie Zacharek

LINKS

Pulitzer Prize winner in 1996 ! Feature Writing

Rick Bragg's Southern Grit

Writer Recalls McCarty's Tattered Bible

Vantage Group Guide

DISCUSSION SCHEDULE

- May lst - pgs. 1 - 78
- May 8th - pgs. 79 - 168
- May 15th - pgs. 169 - 249
- May 22nd - pgs. 250 - 329

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While browsing at B&N one day, I picked up this book and read the reviews and read that the author is a national correspondent for The New York Times and was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for feature writing in 1996 which prompted me to sit a spell and read a few pages.

Even the Prologue caught my attention - the author says "This is not an important book." He's modest - that's different.

Another sentence in the Prologue - "I have made my living in graveyards of spirit, in the blasted-out, crack-infested streets of Miami's Liberty City, in the insane hallways of Manhattan's welfare hotels, in the projects in Birmingham and the reeking oceanfront slums of Port-au-Prince and on death rows in three states."

A good reporter, I thought, he goes where he is needed.

And I turned to the first page of Chapter 1 titled "A man who buys books because they're pretty." That intrigued me - perhaps, a woman might do that to make an impression that those books increased respect from those visiting, or she liked the looks of them in the room - but a man doing it?

I bought it, loved it and want to share it with you, hear your thoughts on it.

About a week later, two woman in one of general discussions wanted to read or have read it, I forget, and assured me they will be here when the books goes up on the Boards.

I hope they see it and post here and I hope all of you do too!

Count me in. I just love this "young'n".

Howzat

Have read the book and would love to see it discussed!

Marge

HOWZAT! I just wrote an email to you and two other ladies who expressed interest before coming here! Am so happy you saw the book and will join in, and.....

MARGE, so have I and we'll share the pleasure of discussing it together slowly!

He's an excellent writer, one can understand the Pulitizer Prize.

Thanks for posting!

Hi, all. I've read this book, as well as his later "Ava's Man." Gosh, can this man write!!! I'd love to see "All Over" in discussion format! I usually can't post much 'cause I've got a lot of hay on my fork right now, but I love to share good books!

Gail T.

That's great, GAIL, we are so happy to have you, hay, fork and all! We all have much on our plates to do, but it is relaxing to stop for just an hour a day to hear what others say about an author, his writing or his characters in the book.

WElcome, Gail, please find time to comment now and then. We want to hear from everyone!

Ella, What a busy lady you are!! Not out of one discussion, before you are getting into another! On this rainy cold day I was "shopping" in the upstairs book shelves and found this book!! So, of course, I have to at least attempt to get through a complete discussion without having to leave town.

Lou

Gosh, I hope so, Lou! I know, I know, I have been busy in the books lately! I'm on a merry-go-round here but as long as people are interested, I am - particularly with the war news, these discussions keep my mind off the television. I have a daughter who may be called up - she's in a medical unit with the Army Reserves and her unit has already served once in Desert Storm! Heavens, isn't once enough to be in the Middle East?

So I keep my spirits up with all you positive and forward-looking folk - keeps me happy!

Hi Ella, you have an eye for a good book. I enjoyed Icebound, Abraham and Kitchen Privileges with you. I can not resist this one. I always like to broaden my view of life. One way to do this is by reading the lives of other people. May I join?

HATS! So happy you have come by to join us - this is a very well-written book, some critics have called him an angry young man, perhaps bitter.

We'll discover together whether he seems to be, whether he has cause to be - and enjoy each other's viewpoints while doing it.

Looking forward to it!

Dear Ella, I stumbled on Rick Bragg's 'All Over' several years ago and found the writing incredible. I would love to participate in your discussion group. The idea of 'slow talkin' re a book sounds delicious to me! I need to review the book to refresh my memory. Do you post a reading schedule (i.e., weekly chapters, etc.)? Looking forward to being with you May 1.

Thanks, Pat in Texas

PAT IN TEXAS!!

Yes, I will be posting a schedule and we will be discussing the chapters one by one as we journey through Rick Bragg's life.

It bodes well for the group that all of us has said his "writing is incredible!"

Thanks for joining us!

Ella, I left a link for you to look at in Working On. I love this guy. He looks like an unmade bed and has a wonderful accent which he uses to his advantage. Have seen him numerous times on Book TV and always read his column in the Atlanta paper when we lived there. He has a gentle way of looking at the sadness and happiness of life and I am sure this will be a super discussion. Are you holding the only copy of the library's copy?

Ann, do join us if you can. No, I don't have a library book - I bought a copy with a gift certificate I had - our library should have quite a number of copies - put one on reserve, we have a week or so yet before we begin the discussion!

It's a great book and we have a wonderful group to discuss it. Perhaps you can buy a used copy online?? Do try.

Ella, I was able to order it from ABE Books, online, used for $7.00 Hooray!! Its supposed to be here in about 10 days.

Sorry that the link won't work for here. Its such a good link!

Your posts make this absolutely irresistable and, oh joy!, I just contacted my library and they have a copy sitting on their shelf and it's now reserved for me! I will pick it up this afternoon.

Sometimes I think I should ask all the authors in the world to stop writing until I can get caught up!

Gail, loved your "too much hay on your fork" comment.

WELCOME - A BIG WELCOME TO EVERYONE - LET THE FUN BEGIN!

Am running late today and am so sorry! But here we all are (HELLO, DIANE, AM SO HAPPY YOU ARE WITH US - I often see you in the nonfiction general folder).

I am completely nonplussed! There is so much to discuss in this wonderful book it is hard to pick a place to begin, but the title is staring us all in the face, so let’s start there. We all know that a writer mulls over the title to his book, he wants to grab attention and with that in mind what do you think of RB's “ALL OVER BUT THE SHOUTIN” title? You did see the reference to that line in the book, right? (p.10)

They are his father’s words and what do they mean?

The lines, the sentences, the words in the book are so wonderful, let’s take the time - all the time we want to with this book, and tell each other our favorite line in – say the PROLOGUE!!

My book is underlined all the way through and it will be hard for me to pick a favorite line, but I will.

I want to hear your own first!

And while we are in the PROLOGUE why do you think Bragg begins with the image of redbirds fighting? Why does he include the story of a bird attacking its own image in the mirror?

Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to just stay with a few chapters at a time instead of wandering all over. Let's go through Chapter Two - as the Prologue and those first two chapters are about this father.

Is that okay with all of you?

I should say that we do stick to the discussion schedule posted in the heading above and if you have read the entire book, please refrain from talking about other parts that are not contained in our schedule.

And I hope there will be a spontaneous exchange of ideas and opinions, we will differ at times, but that makes a discussion more interesting; there are always several points of view possible on every idea or question.

I'm so glad to have such a wonderful group - it will be a great discussion and I am looking forward to it immensely! Thank you all for your interest!

I could tell from the first page that I was going to like this author's writing style. Bragg just really gets inside of things, then talks about them.

What a challenge, Ella, to come up with a favorite line in the Prologue alone - if this weren't a library book it would be solid with underlines! How about a few...

"...dreaming backward can carry a man through some dark rooms where the walls seem lined with razor blades." I practically gasped at that one.

Later, describing the mother of a killed child he was reporting on, "..for the benefit of people who live so far and safely away from this place where the gunfire twinkles like lightning bugs after dark". This really brought home how some people DON'T live "far and safely away...".

The description of the grandmother, "...who got mildly drunk on her prescription, played 'Boilin'Cabbage Down' on the banjo and stomped so hard on the planks it sounded like Jehovah pounding at the door..." Wouldn't you just love to have known her?

"...people who built redwood decks on their mobile homes and have no idea that smart-aleck Yankees think that is somehow funny. People of the pines. My people." Already Bragg is creating, in this reader anyway, a love and affection for "his" people.

There is more but I don't want to grab all the best ones.

Hi Ella, I love what Diane wrote. "if this weren't a library book it would be solid with underlining." How true. I love almost every line. I find myself wanting to cry or nod my head. It is impossible to read it without feeling something turn on emotionally.

Anyway, my favorite line in the Prologue is, "I know that even as the words of George Wallace rang through my Alabama, the black family who lived down the dirt road from our house sent freshpicked corn and other food to the poor white lady and her three sons, because they knew their daddy had run off, because hungry does not have a color."

Those last words struck me. All I can do is repeat them. "hungry does not have a color." Wow!! What wonderful writing. His writing is rich with beauty and truth.

I also think Bragg stayed too long with information about his father. Of course it does provide a background for where the mother and three boys are coming from, but Bragg could have tightened it up somewhat.

All over but the shoutin' is a southern saying that means something is thought of by people who know about it as a done deal, whether anyone is saying that publicly or not. This harks back to pentecostal church services that always ended with hands raised shouting, and sometimes "dancing in the Spirit". It was a joyful expression of the love that being a Christian brought out in people at these services. It brings tears to my eyes to remember having seen this, those kind and simple folk. How dear they were. Mostly gone forever now. Anyway, people waiting outside, mostly men, smoking and talking about hunting dogs, if you came up and asked if church was about over, someone would surely remark, "It's all over but the shoutn'"

I'm reading this book for the second time and I'm slowed down every few sentences by what he writes because he brings back so many memories. I was raised "southern" and everything he tells about is so achingly familiar.

Thanks for the links, Howzat

Like Hats, I found that one statement that "hungry doesn't know color" really hit me. This book is so sad and yet so funny. And, full of his anger, with himself and his father. At least that's what the first 78 pages seem to be saying. And, what a terrific writer! Yaaaaawwwwwnnnn! I woke up at 3:30am and decided to finish the first part of the book.

One thing about reading a book by someone like Bragg - you just want to savor so much of it and wish you could share it with someone. Well, that's what we have here! Isn't it great.

I love Bragg's phrases.... "lived hemmed in by thin cotton and ragged history", "one of them could climb up her backbone and escape", "like paper lace in a summer rain", "the slingshot that sends you hurtling toward a place", "my living in graveyards of spirit", "blowing a hurricane on her harmonica" and "lie like a Republican"!!! Bragg is a one man "Toward more pictureques (How do you spell this word??) speech"!! (Do you read that in the Reader's Digest??) Looking forward to talkin' and readin'!! Hats, Ann, I agree probably his "hungry doesn't know color" is probably his best phrase....

Lou

“Gets inside of things and then talks about them” What prompted that remark, DIANE? Can you expand on that? Interesting.

Can any of you explain why the redbird hated seeing himself in the mirror? Is RB trying to tell us something here? For myself, I know there are mornings I hate to look in the mirror – OH, golly – can that be me? Haha

However, not much I can do about it – but I wonder, do you think many of the people in this book are angry at themselves possibly?

ANN gives us a clue – she says that Rick Bragg is “full of anger with himself and his father.” Why is he angry with himself, Ann?

”Hungry does not have a color"! I agree that’s great writing – Hello HATS! The book is so full of lines such as that, hard to pick a favorite…

Thanks, HOWZAT, for the information about the southern expression “shoutin” and interesting that you connect it with a church service and I’m sure you are right. Somehow I thought it referred to his father’s death but why would they be “shoutin” after he died, it was puzzling to me.

Think of the author’s imagination here – his images – they are all through the book.

That phrase “like paper lace in a summer rain” that LOU mentioned is so apt! That is a simile and they are all through the book – they are the mark of a good writer – one with a remarkable imagination, talent!

You turn the page and here’s another one “carried his memory around deep inside her like a piece of broken glass.

Those similes don’t come easily, you just can’t snap your fingers and they are there. They take time and they add so much to the book! Wonderful images all through the book. Let’s watch for more similes.

RB is speaking of war and the harm it does to families, children, but I’m in agreement with HOWZAT that RB “stayed too long with his father” in the book. How about the rest of you?

Why does RB feel the need to share all his father’s faults with us?

Do you think he is excusing his father’s behavior a bit too much because of his experience in the Korean War? Would the father have been a good husband had he not gone to war?

What if Rick Bragg’s father had died in the war, would the book be as good to read – is there enough material here without the father?

RB tells us a bit about the Braggs. He uses "fought like cats in a sack" again to describe the Bragg men, says they often ended up in jail for fights in town, WITH EACH OTHER! Says his grandpa Bragg was a violent, head strong, dangerous man. RB ends up saying those Braggs are mostly all gone now, not so much from old age as "dead from misuse".

The bitterness RB feels, even up to when he was writing this book) as he begins to understand his family is "different" comes right off the page. He cites the teacher who put him in the "jay bird" group, even after she had let him go over to the fast track "cardinals" and he kept up just fine. Odd that a teacher would name the group for the slower ("your own kind") unkept pupils jay birds. Phonetically, J birds, is how people who are or have been in jail are refered to all over the south.

He mentions that he thought the teacher was of the "gentried class" and speaks of her disdain of these who would "track up [the] white shag carpet" ( Faulkner, The Snopes). I don't know if RB is so defensive about his upbringing that he misread some people and situations or not. But he says he was 30 years old before he stopped saying "damn straight I want fries" when he orders a hamburger or a hot dog; telling about the Friday night treats of footlong hot dogs and that they didn't have fries because it was 25 cents more, each.

When he talks about his mother eating last, I am reminded of my parents. I have seen my mother stand flat footed and say she just didn't feel like any dessert so that the apple pie she had would go around, a fib if I ever heard one. Or my father having to "finish something" up at the barn, waiting to come in later, after unexpected company had been served a meal, and saying to the guests, "Aw no. I'm just fine. I tell you there isn't anything more satisfying to me than cornbread in sweet milk". Tee hee, I can see and hear him now. Bless their hearts.

Red birds are especially bad about fights over females, and always to the death if the other male bird doesn't leave right away. This is always in the mating season. He mentions being puzzled by it. His mother's father tells him it is the male red bird's nature to kill a rival (hence the attack on the bird's reflection in the auto mirror drawing blood, the bird not aware that he was attacking himself). I am not sure what analogy RB was reaching for with this.

Howzat

Have you ever watched a bird attacking himself in a mirror? or in the reflection of himself in a car window? It is something to see...

Ella, it is something to wonder about... if dad had been killed in the war... who would mom have married?? Would she have been happier?

When I stop and think about the care that is given to our service men and women today with this current conflict and contrast that even with the lack of care for even Vietnam vets, I am so heartened that we have finally recognized the trama caused by war. I think about the wives the rangers at Ft. Bragg killed after a mission... War is trama for those who live through it. They are never the same.

So, I wonder, what would dad have been like if he had not gone to Korea and been a part of that war??? Of course, we'll never know the answer to either of those questions... Did Bragg ask this same question??

I do know that while folks are changed by war, they don't necessarily become angry and neglectful.. There are as many ways to be changed as there folks who experience it, I believe... Have you had experience with this??

Lou

Hi Ella,

I am glad you asked about the redbirds. Your question made me go back and read about them again. Have I ever seen a redbird? Maybe not. I am thinking of the cardinal.

Anyway, those redbirds must be important because RB starts the Prologue with their fighting natures. I think he likens the redbirds to families. Families do fight. Some families more than other families.

Finally, the battles within the family can turn into our personal battle. During these fights, there is a lot of "pecking" going on. I call that name calling or pointing out the faults of the other member of the family.

There comes a time, I believe, when all of that "stuff" or "mess" has to be sorted out. I think this is what RB is coming to grips with in the book. He is fighting his own demons. Some of which were put upon him by his own family.

Ella, in answer to your question about RB's anger. He seems almost puzzled by his reaction to his father and although he disclaims it, remorseful of his response to his father. I think that maybe he really wishes things could have been different but at the same time, doesn't know if this man would have still mistreated his mother, war or no war. One thing I didn't read was whether the other Bragg men in his father's generation were as awful as his father. And, I don't think that it was just being in the Korean war but the fact that he killed another human being with his bare hands that so strongly affected this pathetic soul. He was tortured beyond endurance by his memories. The cold, the deaths, the horror of war! It just defeated him, completely. He has no psychological defenses built in to his belief system. He grew up with men who fought constantly and ended up in jail for it and the jailing didn't defeat them from repeating their offenses. It just didn't seem to occur to him what a "war" would be like.

Hats, I think you're onto something with your analogy of the birds pecking each other and RB's family "pecking" each other... I'm going to get out the bird books... I wonder if the cardinal isn't the "red bird"???

I have been surprised by this book... with the talk in the general discussion group, I think I expected a heart warming memoir... this is anything but that. I'm finding it an unsettling read... beautiful writing, but unsettling reading.

Ann, good description of dad... pathetic soul... so sad. RB couldn't forgive his dad, and the dad couldn't forgive himself...

Lou

Hi Lou, I am glad you are going to get out your bird books. I am curious about what a redbird looks like. Is it the cardinal? I never have seen cardinals fighting one another.

Going page by page through Kaufman's Birds of North Amerida and The Sbiley Guide to Birds, I found only two birds that are red with only a little of another color for "trim"... the cardinal and and the summer tanager... both of them are common in the Alabama/Georgia area.... several other birds have red over a lot of their bodies, but another color is also prominent... I don't know if I'm correct or not, sure not an expert, but looks to me like Bragg's red bird is probably one of these 2.

Lou

HOWZAT sums up for us so well the author’s “bitterness” of his youth; he cannot forget, obviously, the hurts that still dwell inside him from his boyhood. And HATS comments that RB “is fighting his own demons. Some of which were put upon him by his own family.”

Does writing a memoir dispel the bitterness do you think? Psychiatrists tell us to write it down – is it helpful? Wouldn’t it be interesting to ask RB if this book helped to dispel the anguish and the distress he felt as a young man growing up in poverty?

ANN wonders about that apparently as she stated that RB is “remorseful of his response to his father.”

Is this book an attempt to forgive his father? Forget the anger and forgive?

LOU remarks that while folks are changed by war, they don't necessarily become angry and neglectful. I agree with that statement, my husband and a few of his friends, my BIL also, came home from WWII, each had seen killing, but none became like Rick Bragg’s father. From HOWZAT’s comments on the Bragg men from the book I believe the author’s father would have been just as mean and ill-tempered without the war.

Would there have been a book then?

The episode of the father giving the gift of “pretty books” to Rick is somewhat puzzling isn’t it? He spent so little time at home that one wonders how he knew Rick liked to read? And were there gifts to the other two boys?

YOU ARE ALL SO WONDERFUL IN YOUR RESPONSES AND I LOVE READING YOUR COMMENTS. IT’S SUCH A PLEASURE TO BE AMONG A GROUP OF DISCERNING READAERS!

LOU, I think that Rick Bragg would be tickled to death to read our comments about his book – it’s a form of flattery to the author to dissect his writing, don’t you think? He spent hours and hours writing it, each sentence and paragraph must have been a struggle, and, even though he said he wrote it for his mother’s sake, he wanted readers and must have been thrilled that it was a bestseller.

If you were his mother, would you have given your consent to have your life bared in such a manner?

Which brings me to another point which I find interesting. Have you noticed the technique RB uses to hammer home various points he wants the reader to be sure to notice ---:

”I hope she blames herself for that, too” (speaking of the awards he has won)
“I hope she sees some of her backbone in me”
“I hope she sees some of her gentleness and sensitivity in my words”

Excellent technique in writing don’t you think?

The title for the section about his mother is “THE WIDOW’S MITE.” The word “mite” means something small, doesn’t it? It could mean many things in regards to his mother, what would be your first reaction to the word in regards to RB’s mother?

Later, ella

Howzat, thanks for the story about the shoutin' at the end of the pentecostal church services. That helped so much in understanding the title as it applied to Bragg's father.

I thought that Bragg dwelled lengthily on his father's flaws and weaknesses for two reasons. Yes, those traits provide a background to show where the mother and three boys are coming from, but they also show the traits of character that Bragg himself IS MOST AFRAID MAY LAY WITHIN HIMSELF.

Several times in the beginning of the book RB mentions how his father told him that he is the child most like himself. Other relatives have commented on his similarities to his father. Even in his adulthood RB says he finds this uncomfortable, perhaps because he himself worries that there is TRUTH here. And, BECAUSE HE NEVER FULLY FORGAVE HIS FATHER, IT MUST BE TOUGH TO MAKE PEACE WITH HIS FATHER WITHIN HIMSELF? Elsewhere in the book, Bragg states that he wants no ties like wife and child. "If I had a dog, it would starve," he says ruefully. Perhaps RB is not yet willing to put himself to the test his father failed -- a test of ongoing responsibility to wife and children?

I don't see Bragg as an extension of his father, but is this how he sees himself? As I read his words I see a man of sensitivity and compassion; a man attuned to the beauty of the physical world. But doesn't this possibly bring us back to the initial image of the fighting redbirds?

I loved what Hats said about the fighting nature of the redbirds being akin to RG "fighting his own demons, some of which were put upon him by his own family." I am sure this is true, and perhaps I can add to that. When the redbird pecks at the MIRROR, can that be an analogy for Bragg's personal battle to control his father's destructive personality traits WITHIN HIMSELF?

Ella, I think that much of this book is a tribute to Bragg's mother, and yes, I think it may have helped him to write it down and trace his way through his upbringing. He writes with such lyrical sensitivity, don't you think?

Harriet

Hi Harriet, RB does write with "lyrical sensitivity." Your understanding of the mirror makes sense to me. I grappled with the part about the mirror. It does make sense to me that RB is striving to keep his character traits separate from his father's.

Thanks Lou for looking up the redbirds. So our redbirds could be Tanagers or Cardinals.

I enjoy reading your family stories Howzat. You write about your family as if you can hear their voices all over again in that same setting.

If a person can get past the pain and exhaustion, I think it is helpful to write memoirs. I think this is why RB writes that it is like walking through "dark rooms where the walls seem lined with razor blades."

I like his one fond memory of his father. Maybe this is the man his mother first loved. "I know that my father had not always been the tortured man of my childhood, that when he started courting my momma, a tall, serenely beautiful woman who looked like a 1940s movie star, he had worn black penny loafers with dimes in them and pants with creases sharp enough to slice bologna."

Ella, is that one of those similes? You might have already mentioned it. It does give us an idea of who his mother first loved. He was a strikingly good looking although, he was a tat mean even at that point.

Sent you email but don't think it will help Ist link works but the second on does Not work for me for some reason.

Oh, I can see this will be a fast-moving discussion! And good one, too.

At this point, I just have one little comment about the birds fighting their mirror reflections. We've had two experiences with birds taking big time notice of their reflections. One was a plain little thing, probably a sparrow, who fell for the reflection in my husband's car's side mirror. In both of our experiences, though, the birds fell in love!!! Or it seemed like that - not fighting at all. The little sparrow would actually be waiting on our rooftop for my husband to come home from work (I went out to see a few times). Then he would spend all that time, perched on the top of the mirror, leaning down and kind of upside down, gazing into the mirror with quite a few soft little pecks (kisses?). This went on for weeks and I finally felt sorry for the little guy (all the other fellows would be bragging about their newly hatched eggs and what would this one have?)and stretched a large sock over the mirror. I guess he could still see through because he stayed a few weeks more, peering through the material.

I'm taking way too much time here, sorry, but the second was an Oriole, not Baltimore, but a terrific looking son-of-a-gun. He found himself in a reflection of our living room window, very close to an oleander bush. He would flutter and flutter at that window literally from sun-up (it would wake us up) to sun-down, but it did not seem to be a fighting stance. After several days of this (and being right in our window I could get a wonderful close look at the beautiful feathers), I noticed a drab, colorless version of our little stud sitting close by on an oleander branch and it became obvious it was his mate! I could just read the look on her grey, patient little face..."Oh, for heaven's sakes, George, get OVER it! You're making a fool of yourself!" And, after a few weeks, I guess he did.

But to tie this back in to the book, I do believe it could be said that these two birds were not only in love, but really trying to look deeply into themselves to see what was there. I dunno. Maybe trying to make too much of this one thing but it's interesting.

Someone asked (I'll have to keep notes) if all the men in RB's life were as awful as his father but I do remember his commenting that his uncles were among the kindest men he'd ever known. Perhaps in comparison to his father, that would have been the case regardless but they did seem to be caring and gentle. Nice that he (and his Mother and brothers had at least that).

This book is so worthwhile, I feel I should be reading it right here at the computer so that every paragraph or so - or every post or so here, I could chime in. Anyway, onward.....

PS Ella, you're doing a wonderful job of coming up with provocative comments and observations. You're just a natural at this although I suspect you put some time and energy into it as well. Thanks!

Diane, your bird stories had me roling on the floor (now, that is figuratively speaking. I haven't actually been able to roll on the floor in many, many years.) I'm so glad you took the time.

This is my second reading of this book and I am thinking now that RB was permanently affected by his childhood, though I think he would deny it. His talent for "seeing" and "hearing" hurt, slight, injustice, irony, righteous anger, the ignorance of innocence, of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, all the things he has written about to this day, that won him the Pulitzer Prize, come from what he experienced growing up and NEVER FORGOT. He can spot any of this stuff a mile off.

The "good" uncles were his mother's people, her brothers and brothers in law. Of the Braggs, RB says his father's mother was the only one that was a good person, although she "enabled" her husband and sons to be worthless and no good, cleaned up their messes, got them out of jail, washed their filth when they were drunk and sick. RB says that his mother and her mother in law talk by telephone most every day and have a good relationship.

I agree that RB's father would not have turned out well even if he hadn't gone to Korea. None of his other brother's did, nor his father. I agree that RB worries about somehow being "like" them, that he might stay on guard to this day to "catch" any symtoms of Bragg behavior before they develop into anything. Of the three brothers, two--Sam and Rick--turned out okay. Mark didn't, but that's later.

Howzat

The redbird story in the prologue seems like an analogy of RB, the author. He is looking back at himself and in telling this story, he may be hurting himself to the point of bleeding. Does this make sense to anyone?

As to the Widow's Mite, Ella. The NT story tells of a woman who put her last penny(mite) in the church 'poor box' and I see what RB means when he seems to cite his mother as 'the widow' who did that. She gave her all to him and to his brothers. Was she a door mat? For his father and him and his brothers? I don't think so although she too was enabler for RB's father. Did she think it was her duty to always try to get the family back together or was that just the culture that she was raised in?

When somebody mentioned the widows' "mite" I couldn't think of anything except my grandma Adams using that word to indicate a small amount, like "don't you think that's a mite too small?", which she always said to her girls unless they were dressed in a shift that hung on them like a tow sack.

Your explanation about the redbird's symbolism sounds right to me.

When do we start on the next part of the book?

Howzat

HELLO HARRIET! So happy you joined us and gave us your excellent explanation of why RB wrote extensively about his father – he saw traits of his father in himself! Hmmmm Frank McCort (author of Angela’s Ashes), who also had a terrible childhood, drunk father, terrible poverty, said he wrote his book to get his childhood memories out of his system. Is it possible? Would you say that RB’s childhood has made him insecure, afraid, as you said, to face marriage and responsibilities? Things to ponder over.

Please understand, HATS, that I am not an English major, but if you stick around Seniornet BOOKS very long, you learn a great deal of things. A “simile” always has either “like” or “as” in front of it; consequently your quote is not one; however here are two very good ones (pgs.28-9) – "words come out in a jumbled rush, like puppies spilling out of a cardboard box" and "pockets were empty as a banker’s soul."

Then there are metaphors! Oh, dear, is this boring? But, quickly, here are samples I learned: The world is like a stage (simile) – The world is a stage (metaphor). Different versions of comparisons. I love to learn something new as we go along.

DIANE, your astute comment is excellent – the birds were“trying to look deeply into themselves to see what was there.” Somewhat similar to what HARRIET stated. Good thoughts.

Thanks for all those great comments, HOWZAT, what did RB get the Pulitizer Prize for, all I know is that it was for “feature writing.” Could that be all his stories for the NYTimes or one in particular? We must find out.. We start discussing the next section of the book on May 8th.

“She gave her all to him and to his brothers,” is Ann’s explanation for the title of “Widow’s Mite.” Definitely. It also could mean she had such a small amount of anything in this world, whether it be love, marriage, material things. A new dress once every five years – FORGET IT. She never had a new dress. Did she have someone to talk do you think, someone besides her children, someone to help her cope or someone to complain to? I can’t remember if the aunts were in-laws or sisters at this moment.

On p.23 RB talks of riding on a gunny sack his mother was pulling through the cotton fields – it made the work easier, gave her a reason to keep going. Is she telling a little fib here? Was it just possibly because she had no one to leave him with? I don’t know, perhaps I’m cynical, but there are a few things I cannot swallow whole here; even though I would love to! It’s a story of wonderful, beautiful, self-sacrificing love! And a mother’s love is that, truly - I know!

Wasn’t the story of RB’s birth hilarious? She named him “Ricky” after Ricky Ricardo! Hahaha I loved that TV series, but I wouldn’t name a baby after either of them – and then tell the child I did it!

Didn't you all wonder (as RB explains) why his mother kept going back to his father (p.40) – this is one sentence I loved in the book (there are far too many to love, I cannot pick the best one).

"I guess trying to explain it is futile, since it would be like trying to explain starving to someone who thinks hungry is being late for dinner."

Another, speaking of the few times his father played with the children and wishing it could last – "It was a dream sandwiched by pain."

The man writes so well, knows how to put those words together. Wow!

Perhaps his mother would have done differently today with resources we have in place for battered women, welfare, etc. What do you think?

And the church just gave her a ham or turkey at Christmas? Couldn’t they have seen the problem and helped more?

So sorry for the length of my posts! I want to address each one of you because your posts mean so much to me as a discussion leader, to all discussion leaders – you make the difference between a good discussion and a mediocre one and, of course, a good book is much easier to discuss than a poor one.

I was not born in the South, but I know what an outside privy is, I know what a stove in the living room is and how cold it got in the other rooms, I know my sisters and I were ashamed at times of our clothes, our shoes; but we were never hungry.

However, have never cared for "plastic flowers" - hahahaha

Thanks, Ella for your definition of a similie and a metaphor.

Okay, all, this is a heads up message from Ella. Her phones went down this afternoon and the phone company can't promise to fix it before May 6th which is Tuesday and then, who knows what time they are talking about. Good Grief!!

Anyway, I plan on running over there tomorrow and see what she had planned for the next section. I will see y'all tomorrow!

Good grief is right! Someone else was complaining on one of the other discussions today about extreme difficulties with phones. Gee, in this day and age? ...man to the moon and all that.

I forget in which part of the country Ella lives. Is this a weather thing?

Sunday, May 4th, Rick Bragg will be a panelist on The Tennessee Williams Festival of Books, talking about "Southern Humor", at 9pm eastern time on BookTV C-Span2. Hope you all can watch, or set your video recorders to tape it.

Howzat

Hi Ann and Ella, sorry about the phone situation.

Howzat, thanks for telling us about the t.v. show.

Oh yes, do watch the C-Span program. I love this author! Puts me in mind of a large, unmade bed or a rumpled king-sized comforter! And, he is so funny!

Ella's phone was put out of order by someone cutting the main underground phonr wire into her neighborhood or her yard? Back here after I speak with her.

Oh, we live in Gahanna, Ohio, Diane.

Did I put my latest book discussion blurb in here? Well, here you go!

I was leaving a message on some of the sites where I thought there might be some readers for "Searching For Hassan". The message was:

Check into our new proposal,"Searching For Hassan" by Terrence Ward. This exciting book is filled with great descriptions of historic sites, the sounds, smells, and tastes of Iran(Persia) plus good explanations of the country's religious ties. One wonderful Irish-American family searches for and finds an Iranian family, who were lost to them 30 yrs ago. The graciousness and respect that these two families have for each other's culture is heartwarming. My favorite quote is from Hassan to Terry Ward: "Remember, if you open the eye of your heart, then you can see things that cannot be seen.

And, Persian was kind enough to explain the above quote. Thanks, Persian.

Persian - 11:51am May 2, 2003 PDT (#402 of 410) Mahlia

"Remember, if you open the eye of your heart, then you can see things that cannot be seen."

Ann - in Persian culture this is the same as telling a beloved family member or friend that when he/she/they travel, they are "in my eyes." Physically, one can only see so far, but when someone is in your heart or you look at them "through the eyes of your heart" it makes all the difference in the world. Whenever my husband or son travel (especially now, since both are in the Middle East), I constantly assure them that they are "in my eyes." Ward's book should be very interesting!

And here is a link to that proposal: Searching For Hassan

I know! I'm shameless!!

Sure hate Ella's phone situation... our weather has been something else here... furious storms the last two evenings... thank goodness, we only lost power for a few hours. Now digging... that's something else again! Checking out cspan2.. our coverages changes all the time and I can never keep up with what we have, when... durn it!!

Lou

Howzat, thanks so much for that information. I've heard that Rick Bragg is a wonderful, entertaining speaker. I'll certainly try to watch or tape it.

Ella, OH, OH, OH! No phones, so no working computer, so no Ella! What a problem! However our always foresighted and resilient Ella has left us some wonderful Vintage Reader Guide questions for consideration in the link of her heading here and many of those questions pertain to the first 8 chapters of our book.

I was fascinated by part of question 4.

"What is the significance of the gift of books by an illiterate father to his clever son?"

Could that gift have meant that Bragg's hell-raising, liquor-soaked, wife-beating daddy conceded that there WAS a world beyond fighting? Is it possible that he wanted the son who seemed so clever and motivated toward learning to be part of a better way of life? I wonder why he didn't tell Rick to share the books with his other brothers?

Why no gifts or farewells for his other two boys?

Does that gift put Bragg's father in a more sympathetic light even though he had no idea of the treasures that were in that carton of books? Or perhaps he just recognized that his son longed for learning?

How does this gift fit into the personality of Bragg's father?

Harriet

Thanks to all of you, my phones are all working again! So nice that Ann and I live in the same little city outside of Columbus, Ohio and we learned that through Seniornet!

WE'll finish this section today and tomorrow and, Harriet, thanks for the questions, am out helping my husband who, at 78, needs all the help he can get.

Meanwhile, think of those questions Harriet posted and here's another good one.

You have all heard the expression "poor white trash" - RB's book tells the story wouldn't you say? Poor white people have not been examined by authors as much as poor black people or would you say that? Is their plight as bad? They do not have to contend with racism, true, and perhaps the job opportunities in our society have been or are more partial to white people - is that true today?

A few expressions about food in the book are unfamiliar to me, maybe some of you know what "pokeweed" is and I have to admit I do not like grits!! Terrible huh? We had cornmeal (white or yellow) as cereal when I was young and we put milk and sugar on it and ate it for breakfast.

What are May Pops and Grapicolas?

And do I remember starch!! Oh, yes, we starched everything and we sprinkled those clothes when they were dry and rolled them up until we got around to ironing them. Loved RB's expression - Some people had backbone to lean on. Daddy had starch! Hahaha

One more wonderful simile before I go outside (it's lovely today) -

"The floor had so many cracks that the wind reached up to tickle your ankles, like cold invisible fingers reaching out of the ground"

Later, Ella

While outside working I thought of that expression "poor white trash" (used in one of the questions linked in the heading) and do wonder how that came into our language. Why "trash?" What does that signify, if anything? Why would anyone think that because you are poor you are "trash?"

THANKS MUCH, HOWZAT, FOR TELLILNG US OF RB ON C-SPAN TONIGHT. I'll be watching!

Harriet, in regard to the first question you posed - "the significance" of the gifts of books by an illiterate father to a son could be the father saw in Rick the similarity between the two and, in the hope that education might prevent his son from the same life he engaged in, gave the books. What do you think?

Ella, I don't know what "may pops" are, but "grapiolas" were probably a local nickname for the carbonated beverage "Grapette" that came in 7oz glass bottles and gave me, as a child, one of the most agonizing choices I had to periodically make. This was back in the day when soft drinks were called "soda" or "soda pop" or "colas"--some would say, "you want a coke"? meaning did you want a soda, any brand.

Grapette, being a small amount, was a hard choice when you had big 'ol RC Cola (the most ounces of any soda at the time) as an alternative, for the same price. But, Oh!, Grapette was sooo grapey, just like grape juice only with a little bite (the cabonation). It lay on the tongue and in your memory like real velvet. Whereas RC Cola was just a whole lot of something ordinary. A while back, there was an attempt at bringing Grapette back, but the original recipe must have been lost because the taste wasn't the same. "Colas" used to be kept in large boxes full of ice and you rooted around in that cold for what ever kind you wanted. And it was COLD. The melting ice would leave the drinks swimming in icy water. I can still feel how cold it was, how wonderful to pull a bottle out and pop the cap off using a device on the side of the box.

Pokeweed is a weed that grows to about 5 ft. It was mostly used as a spring tonic (and it did work), but you would be cautioned to only use the tender new leaves. You could boil it like greens or use it raw as a salad leaf (with fresh tomatoes, onions and cucumber). Mature pokeweed is bitter.

Grits are ground corn. I like mine with butter and sugar, anytime of the day or night. I often fix myself one of those individual serving sizes for dessert (comfort food) in the late evening.

The poor of any color are viewed as an underclass (and yes, we do have a class system here in the States), and are subject to all the prejudices held for people lacking formal education, financial resources and "proper" housing. Back when RB was growing up, it was still "okay" to treat so called lower class people badly (even violently). Today, this prejudice is still with us, but hidden in the light of day (or in well lighted areas). I imagine the "trash" part came from how some poor people's yards looked, piled with old cars and litter.

Glad you got your phone back.

Howzat

Poke... mama always said poke salad was/is one of several "weeds" that were a steady part of the diet of "poor farmers" in Oklahoma... Poke is poisonous, so that's why you use the new tender leaves... the berries make wonderful dye!! A vivid violet... Dock, durdock, lambs quarter... those are the other names I remember from my folks' tales... I have been amazed... RB was born in 1959... he really is a young person, but his story reads as though he were much older... His mama was born in 1937... that's my husband's age... That's been a hard thing for me to keep in mind as I read this book...

Could poor white trash come from the fact that they were "throw away"?? Not important to the community in anyway??? Grapes of Wrath is the only book that comes to my mind about white trash... and of course the depression.

Howzat, your memories of grapette are exactly as mine are!! Though I never had much of a choice... mama always said, grapette or orange-aid... grapette always won!! My grandmother loved RC cola... ah, the memories...

Lou

Well, did you all get to see and hear RB last night? I love this man's wit and his graphic stories of his family. I spent most of the hour laughing my socks off. This guy is really brilliant under all that good ole' boy facade. It takes such a person to see beneath all the ills of his world and find the gold. He's a delight and a treasure. Did you hear him discuss this book and his newest one, "Ava's Boy or Man"? Says they are his first serious books and he really appreciates being able to write them. And now that he has written them, he hopes to go on to different type of book and looks forward to writing with more humor or grace? And, yes, he does seem too young to have experienced life so fully and to write about it. I have children older than he is but they aren't as brilliant as he is.

I grew up in Indianapolis, a city girl, but I do remember my grandfather having a nip now and then. He kept a pint up in the cupboard and under the seat of his car.

In the summer, our gang met up at the ice company every hot afternoon, where we combed through the ice and water 'coke box' looking for a Grape Nehi or a really good lemon drink whose name escapes me.

Introduced to 'grits' as an adult in Atlanta, I fell in love with them and still eat them occasionally for breakfast. I like to break my soft fried egg into them and add butter and salt and pepper.

ANN, I saw the program also and RB stole the show - in fact, if he had not been there, it would not have been a show! No one else talked much, not many questions came from the floor, and the emcee was a total dud (where did they get him?).

But RB was a smash hit - he was FUNNY! Which surprised me as I have yet to see any humor in this book. Do any of you?

This is the last day to discuss our first section through page 78 and I will put dates instead of weeks in the heaading, less confusing to all.

The two chapters "When God Blinks" and "The Free Show" are terrible to read - meaness personified!!! The hateful house, a drunk and out-of-control father, the aristocratic teacher, and most despicable of all – Alabama’s notorious George Wallace. "The people and the governor fed off each other, until both grew full on their own doomed ideal. They thought it would last forever."

That describes the times, other words and other pictures, other speeches are all over the Internet if one wants to read them. It is enough for many of us to recall those days, the terrible 60's.

RB comments that a “big part of the Old South is on coffee tables in Greenwich Village” and, of course, he is speaking of old buildilngs and houses, but what of the Old South’s attitudes? Have they disappeared forever? A new Atlanta, bustling economically comes to mind, other prosperous cities in the South. Underlying the new, does the Old South linger? I don’t know.

RB recalls a few things we might have forgotten – I remember the wringer washers, do you? And irons! Was there electricity in their house, I can’t remember, but RB’s mother ironing night after night in the bedroom and I did find one line that is somewhat humorous on page 74 when our author touched a hot iron and states that he was in training to be a reporter or an imbecile. Haha

Our author had been in training with his first breath, his first recollection of anything at all; he remembers well, doesn’t he?

His mother deserves all the accolades he can give her; "as children, we never knew how tenuous our existence was. She absorbed that unpleasantness, too."

Certainly, when his mother read that, she cried? Did it make up for all those years when she worked so hard for her boys “absorbing the unpleasantness” of being poor, hungry, never knowing where the next meal was coming from or the next pair of shoes.

Do you believe racism is still as prevalent in our society as it was in the 60's? Has it just gone underground? Do you see any progress at all?

I spent 19 years in a rural high school in NC... the school is integrated, but for the most part when optional, students tend to gather in groups of the same race... Does this stem from a prejudice or simply from having more in common??? I'm sure I don't know... I would say that not much comes to light publically that is based on racial problems... now does it happen without being publically acknowledged??? perhaps some, but I would guess not nearly as much as in the 60's...

Having been born in Oklahoma with many Native Americans and growing up in Texas with many Spanish in my school I have to say that my husband's military career with the integrated force was just another wonderful experience of getting to know other folks and their customs... we really are more alike than different.

Wish I could have seen RB last night... I would love to have seen and heard his humor... 'cause there's not much in his book to laugh about.

Lou

I, too, thought the BookTV thing was "saved" by RB. No, he hardly ever writes anything humorous--see his book "Somebody Told Me", a collection of his newspaper pieces. He is attracted to, and writes extraordinarily well about, stories of the down trodden, the underdog, the misunderstood, the innocent (and not so innocent) victims of society (and capitalism, which, like it or not, is hard on the poor and under educated), the old and the sick.

RB can be so tender and so understanding. Some of his stories will tear your heart out, but then some will make you so proud to be a human.

Southerners are polite, mostly. Even if you do or say something really gross, people over 50 might say, "Well, now, that is so tacky". The younger ones, of course, are likely to be "in your face" about things--people are getting that way all over the world. But prejudice is still with us only more hidden. Scratch some folks in private and you'll get an earful. There's still not too much tolerance for difference in religion, politics, sexual preference, or race. But to know how people really feel about something they have to trust you, to know that you will not blab it all over.

Howzat

I am loving this book and find now that I can't keep from reading on ahead. But, I'll keep my mouth zippered when necessary. And I am crushed that we couldn't catch RB on tv.

Ann, my grandfather was of German stock and loved his beer but I am told he was known for his wonderful dandelion wine. Alas, I was too young to have enjoyed that particular delight.

Oh Ella, I don't have the book handy right now but I do not think of it as being without humor! Often I think he has to find the humor to keep from crying but yes, I do find wordings or thoughts to chuckle at.Probably sometimes between the lines. Now watch - maybe I won't be able to fine any! I'll come back about that.

Yes, sadly, I do think racism is still around - maybe not as obviously but just as hurtfully. The slight little snubs, lots of things.

Lou, that's an interesting point about when groups gather together - is it from prejudice or having things in common? Probably both but that doesn't address the prejudice problem. Just think as a for instance, if people didn't flock together into groups based on similarities of race, background, tradition, etc. - we wouldn't have Chinatowns! Maybe not a good example but it is sad to think of traditions being "melted" away - sad for the ones who should be inheriting them, sad for others who would miss hearing about and enjoying them.

howzat, you posted two comments I really liked - one about capitalism being hard on the poor, elderly, etc. Good as capitalism has allegedly been for our country, you hit the nail on the head about what I DON'T like about it. And then what you said about RB - "Some of his stories will tear your heart out, but then some will make you so proud to be human". Right on.

How'd you get the dates and chapters to zoom like that? Neat!

I found an e-mail addy for Rick Bragg and told him we were discussing his book. If the addy's any good, maybe he will drop in for a looksee. You think?

Howzat

Ella, yesterday I clicked on your link above: Vantage Readers Guide and found it is actually, Vintage Readers Guide. Just one letter! Hahahaha!

I have found much to chuckle at in this book. Its the language and the way folks react to things. Did you hear him tell that funny story about standing around the truck and not talking? Its such a male thing plus southern.

Yes, there is still racism but with maybe a couple of generations passing some of it will mellow out. When I was in HS back in the olden days, we ate lunch in the cafeteria where the African American girls separated themselves by sitting together at one or two tables. We all loved all of those girls and included whenever we could but that was looooooonggg ago. Blatant racism like "White" and "colored" designated public facilities are gone. And movie theatres are open to all races. They didn't used to be. And, of course, our schools. I saw a piece on Sunday Morning though about well to do African Americans who are flocking to subdivisions in Atlanta that seem to house only that race. Thats a curious result to anti-segregation laws.

Even though the anti-segregation laws are in place, I think it takes some time for a race who once lived under segregation to automatically feel comfortable with those who have rejected them. First comes the law, then, comes the time of acceptance from the victims of discrimination and those who have been the perpetrators.

For example, If a person is told to live beside another person by the law, do they really want to? Do you really want to live beside them? Do you really want your children to go to school with them? The law says one thing. Our hearts tell us another thing. I think a person who is discriminated against can feel whether those who "say" they accept them are really sincere.

If my memory serves me correctly, the laws were put in place for black and white children to go to school together in Little Rock. When the day came for the children to follow the law by entering the school, all hell broke lose. However, the law was in place.

I do agree with Lou, Howzat, Ann that times have changed greatly. This is definitely a better time. However, like Howzat wrote, there are the underhanded whispers, jokes, etc. Society is not totally clean of race hatred, but we are working on it. That is what is wonderful. When we stop trying to achieve change for our future children, then, we can feel sad.

Got a reply that said wrong Rick Bragg but agreed it is a good book. So, either there's more than one Rick Bragg or it was Rick Bragg and he doesn't want me to know that. Tee Hee, I'm not deterred. I'm going to e-mail to The New York Times and see if that works.

Yes, the race thing is getting better. Some people, black and white, keep the whole thing stirred up to help with their "agenda".

Howzat

ANN – no, I don’t remember RB talking much about his book – “AVA’S MAN.“ Has anyone read it? My book has a blurb about it in the back; in this he writes about his grandfather, Charlie Bundrum, who he mentions in our book. Charlie, who drank exactly one pint for every gallon he sold of moonshine, sounds as though it has much the same content as our present book. I agree RB is a delight and a treasure, but how long can he keep this up? How many more books are there about his relatives, I think he will run out of them soon enough.

HOWZAT, have you read “AVA’S MAN?” You mentioned another book of essays by RB, have you read them? Does the book mention which ones were responsible for the Pulitizer Prize or does it have to be an individual piece he wrote; in other words, can the Pulitizer be won for general writing?

LOU, you spent your life in the military, tell us a little about it – any overseas duty? And you said “we really are more alike than different.” Why then is there prejudice? Most of you agree it is still prevalent in our society; maybe it always will be? Can organizations such as churches help with the problem? Are they doing enough? Our minister just started a gathering of Hispanics in our neighborhood for one night a week and it grew, and now the church is offering Spanish lessons for a fee. Should we attempt to speak their language or insist they learn ours? I don’t know.

I remember many years in NYC we asked an elderly woman for directions and in very halting English she said she couldn’t speak English, she was sorry. I think she understood better as we asked how long she had been here and she said 15 years – and couldn’t speak English! Amazing that!

HOWZAT, what did you mean by the statement that “the younger ones, of course, are likely to be "in your face" about things--people are getting that way all over the world.” Can you give us an example? Rudeness? In a particular way about prejudice? Is that good or bad? I’m not sure I understand.

DIANE, I want to know where RB was humorous! Do find something, he can get downright depressing to me!

HOWZAT – you did!!! Oh, that’s wonderful – wouldn’t it be grand if our author stopped in! Do you suppose he uses a computer for writing his books? His columns? Oh, certainly in this day and age he does. I attempted a few years ago to get an author to visit us and he wanted to, but he couldn’t figure it all out, even his secretary didn’t know how to get online! Can you imagine!

HI HATS! Oh, I think you are right, this is definitely a better time! Race problems, even though still with us, are improving a little. RB says it well here:

”They will tell you that the depth of that meanness and hatred and ignorance varies from soul to soul, that white Southerners are not the same and symmetrical, like the boards in a white picket fence. They will tell that the depth of that meanness often depends on what life has done to a person, on the impressions left by brushes with people different from you, on those rare times when the parallel universes came close enough to touch.”

The parallel universes come close enough to touch! Like that. Notice the simile there?

Must go – off to doctor’s office.

Later, Ella

Bragg's Pulitzer was for "Feature Writing" The citation reads: For a distinguished example of feature writing giving prime consideration to high literary quality and originality. ... for his elegantlly written stories about contemporary AMerica." There are stories about: Mardi Gras, the Oklahoma City bombing, Susan Smith, the mother that drown her sons in SC, and a couple of others listed... This comes from the link in the heading...

Dave had tours in Korea, 2 in Vietnam and the family all when to Germany for 3 years... Ella, I can't say where prejudice comes from... one of the activities I did in the K-3 school where I worked a while was to read books about other cultures and we would compare and contrast... do Venn diagrams... amazing how the kids could see the differences, but had a harder time with the similarities...

Hats, do I remember right? Are you in Tennesse? I was so glad to see you post... the weather has made me worry about everyone lately!! LOL

Lou

Hi Lou, you are right. I am in Tennessee. The weather has been terrible. So far, we are safe. My son experienced a power outage on his job. It just depends where you are located. In some areas, the flooding is very bad. Thanks for asking.

Got an e-mail from Rick Bragg. He says he's glad we're reading his book but that he's a computer simpleton and will not be joining our discussion.

In Europe, Asia, and, well, most other places, people speak at least two languages. I speak only English, but I would really rather I spoke Spanish and French and German too. I took Spanish for a year when I was 50, but most of it didn't "take" because I didn't have anyone to talk to. You can't "do" a language alone. You must have at least one other someone to regularly talk to become fluent and have the language "stick".

Yes, immigrants to this country should learn to speak English as quickly as they can. It makes economic sense, if nothing else. But children, who are especially social, understand this need right away. They jump in and learn a new language so they can be included as "players" in the society they find themselves in. They often are put in the position of being interpreters for the adults in their families.

Some of the young today do not suffer fools gladly (their perception of "fool"

) and will quickly "tell you off" right then, and in public, even. We called this "sassing" or "acting out" or "disputing my word". I was brought up, along with my whole family and everyone I knew, to hold my public tongue unless I was sure that the consequences would be of a beneficial nature, that group civility trumped individual preference. That's why some of Emily Dickson's poetry seemed so uncomfortable to the people of her day. She used some of her poetry to be "in your face" about "things". I love her.

No, I have't read Ava's Man yet. It got mixed reviews. The New York Times (of all venues) reviewer jumped on that book and stomped a mud hole in it. Others loved it front to back. I know I'm predisposed to like it, but who knows?

Howzat

And, Howzat, whatever happened to "Don't speak unless you are spoken to?" and "Don't make a scene in public". I think we considered it a matter of pride to follow some of our parents advice.

Ella, if I had my book here at the computer I would point out some of the humorous phrases, IMHO, in it.

Did you hear him tell the story about his girlfriend's chance remark about the street mime that they saw in New Orleans? And, his saying that he knows that as long as he lives he will never forget it? What he actually said about not forgetting it was, "As long as I live I will remember what she said and make myself sick laughing about it. Even if I live long enough to be sitting,in a rocking chair with a blanket over my legs, on a\the front porch at the local Home for the Elderly, I will laugh about it." His Southern phrasing plus just listening to him makes me chuckle. And, I can here his voice when I read this book. I had seen him three times before Sunday night on CSPAN over the past year. Maybe he wouldn't translate so funny to me if I didn't hear his voice. There's a gentleman in Atlanta, on the radio, who phrases his sentences the same way and he also just rolls me on the floor. While some of you have mentioned that everyone should learn to speak English when they emigrate to the US plus the possible lose of Chinatowns, Little Italy, etc. if we mix everyone up more, might want to read and discuss a book that I am reading right now. A real eye opener for me, its titled, "The Middle of Everywhere" by Mary Pipher. I may propose it for next Fall. Quite a well written book and certainly taught me more about the refugees who come here in the present days.

Hats, Thank the Lord!!! I just keep seeing the tornados and wonder and worry... Guess that's my Oklahoma roots talkin'!!

Lou

Ann, I'm glad you agree with me about the humor in this book. If it weren't a library book mine would be filled with underlines. Then I'd probably have to go back with white-out to highlight the really special lines! But yes, I see it sprinkled all through - sometimes more in the lines, sometimes more between the lines. What a gifted author. We'll have to make a concerted effort to make Ella change her mind!

Does the fact that RB has been on TV a number of times recently mean he's becoming better known? And that we can expect more? I sure hope so - I'd love to see and hear this guy.

"The Middle of Everywhere" sounds like a worthwhile read. Hope you'll present it again.

My copy of the book has a photo of RB's mother on the cover and I find myself looking at it often. She looks so normal! Like someone who might have been in my class (I think she was also born in '36). She doesn't look like the tough, rugged, fatigued, grief-burdened woman that we read about. Not that I disbelieve, not at all! Just that it shows how little we know of a person from the outside. If fascinates me.

Hats, I'm keeping you in my prayers. Do you have a root cellar or something to run to if you need? Stay safe - you and your family.

Thanks Lou and Diane for thinking of us. So far, this evening, it is clearing off. I hope tomorrow will be a better day. I feel awfully bad for those who have been flooded out of their homes. There have been some who have lost their lives.

A quick note before I turn off my computer as storms are coming! Do stay safe, HATS! It's that season when the weather can't make up its mind what to do and we all suffer!

Really, HOWZAT! RB is a "computer simpleton?" Well, who wrote you then? Apparently someone in his office knows how to do email????????????

I had a premonition, remember? But I certainly thought that due to his age, RB would know word processing and computer lingo, but no!!! I think writers start out with one technique and are afraid to abandon it for fear of not succeeding - somewhat superstitous maybe?

It was in 2000 that Harold and I discussed Ben Bradlee's book - A GOOD LIFE - he was the former editor (since retired) of the Washington Post and he wrote a wonderful book of his life. I contacted him at the newspaper and his secretary called me one day - ON THE TELEPHONE!!!! I was speechless for a moment, but she said Ben wanted to get online. How do you do it??? Well, I talked to her and Marcie (of Seniornet fame) talked to her by phone and she never learned.

She was his longtime secretary and said she must learn it first and then teach Ben! Sadly, she never learned!!! At the Washington Post!!

Wouldn't you think that someone there could have shown the two of them how to do it?

Here's a clickable to that discussion if you are interested - the book was full of all the news of his era, Watergate, Nixon, the 60's, the 70's, etc. Loved it.

A Good Life by Ben Bradlee

A good book. Harold thought he didn't come online because we called him (in the very first line or two) a "rich spoiled brat" which he was, but when I mentioned this to his secretary she laughed! She said he would be amused, as that is very mild compared to other things he has been called!

OH, Dear, must get off!

Well, Ella, that's so interesting about writers not wanting to learn the computer. My step-dad "1, my step-dad #2, as well as my step-brother were all writers (not of books, I wish!, but TV, advertising, etc.). Each one of them had an old manual and, as step-dad #1 gave way to step-dad #2 (my Mom was so unlucky - they, as well as my very own father all died prematurely, leaving her with two generations of children to raise - but that's another story), and a new step-brother, manual typewriters gave way to electric typewriters, and, ultimately, to the computer. Do you know not a one of them had a bit of interest in moving on - said they couldn't write as well without hearing the tapping of keys, swinging of the carriage arm (remember that?) and so forth. And you know what?- I absolutely cherish (now) the memory of the sound of a manual typewriter tapping away into the night, a sound like no other.

Hi Ella, I enjoyed your story about Ben Bradlee and his secretary. I got a laugh out of that one. I hope you are safe. The bad weather is still with us too. Many schools have closed. I know people out west are suffering badly too.

Well, at least we have a good book to turn to from time to time.

The dust jacket cover picture of RB's mother was taken when she was young, just married. We don't know what she looked like in later years, but I always imagine her looking like that famous picture of the woman sitting in the tent door taken during the depression years by, I think, Margaret Burke White. You must have all seen it, it is the most requested (or was) picture from the archives at the Smithsonion.

Yes! I can't believe RB is computer illiterate!

Howzat

Hats, did you get more stormin' yesterday? We were watching the Braves game and it went into a rain delay before it started. Also, the Canton,GA area got many sightings of funnels. We have very dear friends who live there so must call to check on them today. We(Gahanna, Columbus, Ohio area) are being promised "more of the same" along with flooding that we had this morning. It just suddenly became very dark after first light, and I mean really dark, and then the rain and hail and wind arrived. Didn't last long but there's more comin' this afternoon and tomorrow, too. That is, if you can believe the weatherman!

I am disappointed in the chapters that we are reading now as they not only don't seem all that sad or funny, I'm losing interest. Hope it picks up in the next chapters.

Hi Ann, It stormed heavily this morning. Now, the rain is gone, and there is no thundering and lightening. Many schools are closed. The place where my husband worked closed at ten o'clock this morning because of flooding. He will be home any time now. I think there won't be a let up in rain until Saturday. It is really depressing never seeing the sunshine. I hope your friends are alright.

I am becoming disappointed in the chapters too. I hope Rick Bragg picks up some steam again.

The first thing in this section I underlined was RB talking about his car, p112 in my book: "....I loved her because she was my equalizer."

I found this interesting in connection with an incident that happened to me: I was driving for some field trip, students ask where I lived and I pointed out our house as we drove by. Our house is a 2 story white job, and our car at that time was a Tempo... very small... One of the young men turned to the back seat and ask the other students "Which would you rather have, a big house or a big car??" They all agreed they would rather have a big car because you "Nobody knows where you live and everybody sees your car."

Car= equalizer.... at least to RB at that time and to those students..

Lou

YES, STORMS EVERYWHERE! LIKELY TO BE ANOTHER ONE ANY MINUTE, SO THIS WILL BE SHORT!

Tomorrow we begin the next section of the book - pages 79 to 168 and it will be fun to have new stories to bring here and discuss.

As I read I often wonder how RB is able to set the mood, to bring this period alive for us, to make us see the poverty, his lonely mother - all of it! He has magic in his fingers and his mind whether he types or writes, it's beautiful writing.

DIANE, for heavens sakes, do have your mother (is she still living) tell you all about her life and either SHE or YOU must write the story; those marriages, raising those children, you just must get her to talk about it! It’s history and it can be alive and fascinating, just like RB has done! Oh, if we could all write like he does – whether it be with paper and pencil, typewriter, whatever, wouldn’t we be proud of ourselves!

Do you think he is able to do it because he is not married? Is this one of his fears of getting married? Possibly a wife and children would interfere with his writing and that is all he has? His only skill is writing, is there permanency in that? Security?

Interesting to speculate! You know women - we want all men to be married, don’t we!

Read the description of those two remaining photographs of his father at the end of Chapater 8 and this line:

"the pictures are very small. It hurts my eyes to look at them for long."

It isn't his eyes he is complaining about here - where is he really hurting?

See you tomorrow!

Ella, I think it's not the size of the pictures that hurt RB's eyes. I think it is the memory. In each photograph, he sees the father that he never had a chance to know. These pictures show his father before life had made him a bitter man. This is the man who RB would like to have known.

At the very least use a tape recorder so that later you can transcribe what she says into your computer. But, if you have a video camera, set it up on a tripod, center the lense on your mother's head and shoulders, then just "talk" (you can have a list of topics and/or people and places to ask her about). Expect the conversation to wander a bit because when people remember they remember other things, too. It won't be long until she forgets all about that camera. Make sure you know when the tape will run out so you can put in another one. Plan to do this over a period of time. You'll see that your mother will start looking forward to the sessions. Use the best quality tape you can buy--digital is best, but not every one has a digital video camera.

I mourn the fact that I did not tape my mother and father. I pull my hair and ask why? why! Of course, I would have had to tape them separately. Mother always deferred to Dad--he always answered any questions people asked mother.

I have lots of cassett tapes of "gatherings" but with everyone all talking at once you can't really hear ANYbody.

Howzat

Oh my, dear people - Mom passed away in 1988. Too late now but she would have loved that! Yes, she DID have an interesting life, complete with tragedies but also some pretty good stuff - like all of us, really. But hey, on with the show...

I've just about finished the book and I'll be sorry for it to end except I have a big stack of library books that all came in together and I need to tackle them. Probably some will have to go back unread, or at least, briefly skimmed.

Diane, I have a history similar to yours and have tried very hard to get some of it on paper and stored on my 'puter. The one thing that you can do is this. Get the book by Bob Greene and his sister, "To My Children's Children" which I think would help you to write some of your story. We used it last year in our creative writing class and found it a helpful book with many ideas for putting together your family's history. When I say, I have a similar history, I mean, my mother was widowed twice before she was 35, had three separate groups of children and then married the wrong man for #3. Ain't life a mess! But, my mom was a trip and never really let life get her down. She danced on the stage in NYC one summer, was still dancing for shows put on by our church after my Dad died, and I have a fond memory of her and a bunch of friends rolling up the living room rug to have a tap dancing contest<between her and male tapdancer) late one night. She ran a boarding house for hockey players(along with my Dad) for ten years which made our lives interesting and different. Never a dull moment!

Ella, I apologize for "jumping the gun" yesterday with a post into this week's reading... got ahead of my self there. when I read about the car, the field trip jumped into my mind...what there is left of it, mind that is!!! LOL...

My cousins and I have been lamenting that we are the older generation now, well at least for most of the family... we have my mom and one of her brother's wives left... 9 children in Mom's family and 13 in Dad's... and just those 2 left... and think of all the history that's gone!! Mom is 97... determined to be 100!!

Lou

I agree, HATs, with your summation of RB’s thoughts of his father – good thinking. Our author has a way of disguising his true thoughts and one must be aware when reading – read critically in order to appreciate what is hidden as well as what is in plain view. You don’t get the Pulitizer Prize for writing if you can’t have “layers” to please the reader.

DIANE, hope you don’t leave us – drop in now and then!

HOWZAT – I smiled at this “everyone all talking at once you can't really hear” – that’s my family or I should say it used to be. There were six of us (all sisters) and our spouses (who usually found a spot away from us to talk calmly), and children! MY LORD! I couldn’t take it today. There are just 3 sistersleft, two spouses. My daughter once said it is a wonder that all your husbands stayed with you and your sisters! Hahaha

Also I was amused that your mother, HOWZAT, deferred to your father – it was the way some families worked it all out. Was she dependent on your father for other things?

Good for you, Ann, that you have that record, your children will treasure it! Isn’t it true that all readers believe they could – should write? Haven’t you ever read a book and said I could have done that, and could have done it better?

LOU – your mother is 97! WOW! Can you tape her, have her tell you some anecdotes? Families used to have many children – and now they are having fewer all the time – I read an article that said if the present pace of having fewer or no children continues, we might have to advertise for more immigrants just to continue our industry! Imagine that!

I love going through this book slowly – much more interesting the second time around. Let’s remember that RB said in the beginning that he was writing this book for his mother – wait, I’ll find his exact words:

”This story is important only to me and a few people who lived it, people with my last name. I tell it because there should be a record of my momma’s sacrifice………to repay her for all the suffering and indignity she absorbed for us, for me”

His momma reads this book, his momma is among those who believe that God was a benevolent force, believed in salvation.” RB states that her faith, her belief “made the unbearable somehow bearable for her and the loneliness, less.”.

So she reads the book and what does she think of her son who says:

”I stopped going, (to church) after awhile. I never went to church again, but I am not sorry I went then…….I don’t buy all of it or even most of it, what those preachers said, I don’t think you have to do anything to get into heaven except do right.”

Should he have left that out?

I loved his stories of church, baptism, the hymns, the altar calls, the hysteria some felt when they received God! I knew all that as a child; my grandmother took me to such a church where the women were very plain, no cosmetics (work of the devil), and long sleeves, long skirts (bare flesh incites lust in men!). I remember all the hymns – The Old Rugged Cross, Nearer My God to Thee, I Walked in the Garden Alone, Just As I am.

You don’t forget your childhood memories very easily, but I cannot write them as well as RB does – as exquisitely as he! The phrases – “Mark was still too little to waste good religion on” – there’s humor, if one can call it that!

This is too long a post and I must go and I’ll leave you with this question:

What memories did RB conjure up in the chapter on church and it’s rituals? Did anyone in your family listen to the preachers on TV or radio? Did they contribute to them?

Do his anecdotes on his childhood contribute to the book? To the reader – in what ways?

Ever heard of “red-eye gravy?”

Later, Ella

Ella, my mother's favorite church song was The Old Rugged Cross. She would sing it everyday, and she had a very loud voice. She loved to sing it while cooking meals. The kitchen was downstairs. My bedroom was upstairs. I could hear her all the way upstairs.

She did have a good voice. Funny, in my head, I can still hear her singing that song. Some memories stay with us forever. I am reminded of that link you gave us for the Mary Higgins Clark discussion. It was about Genetic Memory. That is a concept I find hard to understand. It would be interesting to read a book about why and how we keep some memories and not others.

My mother did not go to church every Sunday. She read her Bible before bedtime. My sister wanted her to do in depth Bible Studies.My mother never did get involved with doctrinal teachings.

My mother seemed to just love reading the Psalms. When I was very little, she taught me the Twenty Third Psalm. If I had a nightmare, she told me to always repeat that psalm, and I would find comfort.

I have never heard of red eye gravy.

RED EYE GRAVY!!! Oh, my goodness.... That's one of those things Mama fixed for the "adults" and we little kids couldn't eat... it was too rich for us... the same with cucumbers, onions and vinegar!!! So to this day, I don't eat either of them, but sure have memories of how good they looked and smelled... forbidden fruits, I guess!! All I can tell you is Mama fixed it after frying ham... it was for biscuits usually..

Lou

OK, my darling husband just got home and tells me you make red eye gravy from ham grease. You add coffee and water and cook it down... and he says, serve it over grits... so there are 2 (probably a million!!!) options for you. LOL

Lou

When you fry ham in a skillet with just a bit of oil or butter what you have left after frying is "stuff" in the bottom of the pan. You deglaze this stuff with water and add just enough corn starch to thicken it just a tad. What you end up with is a gravy (sauce in France) that is sort of red in color. Hence, the name.

I'll bet the deviled eggs RB says were dusted with cayenne pepper were really topped off with paprika. Same color, both peppers, but I've not heard of using cayenne pepper.

Ella, yes, my father was "head" of our family. My mother deferred to him in most everything. She didn't always like his decisions and chaffed under his rule, but she was of that era. She had ways, however, of changing his mind. And a few times, that I know of, where she refused to "cooperate". My father was concerned with the "big picture", Mother took care of the details. I can tell you that the person who takes care of the details has more power than is apparent.

RB's book is so full of pain and anger. He talks about being frightened to death when he thought he was going to be a father. He never seems to have long term relationships. He neglects to "care" for relationships--even family, if you look close. He does as he pleases. He admires and respects Sam, his older brother? Maybe yes, maybe no. He would never settle for being like Sam in a million years. He says his younger brother, Mark, is out of hand and worrisome to his momma but, except for the ability to write exceedingly well, he is more like Mark than he realizes.

Writers, generally, are loners, taking from the world what they need and giving back books. They aren't, usually, "regular" folks. They "drop in" and talk a while, then leave--even when they're there, they're "gone", looking at every thing with the writer's "can I use this?", writing and re-writing as they listen and talk, anxious to get away and "write it down".

At least he is aware of his selfishness. I think he does his momma a disservice when he doesn't talk with her about the places he's been or what he's seen. It's condesending. He says it's to save her worrying, but it's more like he thinks she's too unsophisticated to understand what he writes. Damn him, he should send her copies of everything he writes. Margaret Marie is not dumb, she's just uneducated. Sometimes, when RB is being (in my opinion) a patronizing snake-in-the-grass I just want to throw the book against the wall. But, he's such a good writer. I get over it and go on.

Howzat

I get the impression that RB's mama stayed home more than she went out. She did not go to church, but that was not because she did not believe in God. It was because she did not have the right clothes to wear. She felt ashamed of her appearance. When you have to worry about whether your wearing the most stylish dress or hat, I think there is something wrong with the church.

Anyway, RB's mama's faith seemed to be very strong. Maybe, it is a good thing that there are television evangelists for those people who are hospitalized or shut ins. I have never tried touching the top of the television. I know many people do believe that will work.

Hats, RB seemed to feel that his mother also feared embarrassing her sons with her seedy appearance. She spent her available money on her boys rather than on clothes for herself.

I noticed that whenever she sent Ricky to church with relatives she would give him a quarter to donate. That must have been difficult for her to produce. Maybe another reason she didn't go to church was that she didn't have money for her donations, and this shamed her.

The southern culture Bragg writes about is totally new to me, as is the revivalist church meetings. It seems so strange to me that people were living in the kind of poverty that Bragg and his family survived in the 1960's and 1970's.

Howzat, I felt that Bragg did start to help his mother as soon as he could but it apparently took a while before he became aware of some of her more urgent priorities. He writes that the opthamologist to which he brought his mother looked at him with contempt for letting his mother's eyes deteriorate so severely, but his mama never shared the extent of her vision problems with her children.

She was a woman who carried self-sacrifice to an extraordinary level and, if she had communicated her needs as her children began to earn money, they surely would have helped even more. It was almost as if the habits of a lifetime were too hard for her to break and she couldn't focus on her own problems well enough to communicate with her adult sons.

Under the most normal of family situations, It's a rare young adult son who can "read" a parent's mind to figure out her needs. I thought Ricky did try to help out, but his mother's reluctance to confide her medical and financial needs must have made the job more puzzling, His mama accepted money from Ricky and then she hid it under her mattress rather than using it to help herself.

The problems of poverty run very deep in this family and made Mama harder for Ricky to help.

Harriet

Oh no, Ella - I wouldn't leave this group now! The book is only half of the "fun" - the discussion is the other half.

Just reading the most recent posts about the almost unimaginable poverty that RB's Mama endured is making me wonder about her sisters and brothers-in-law - didn't they live pretty near by? Since Mama never, ever went out, did someone else do her grocery shopping? I don't feel there's a complete picture of her life. And her teeth? - the whole family just allowed her to go on with no teeth at all? They went on and on just accepting her "excuse" about waiting till the weather grew cooler. It's not that I disbelieve RB but I just can't get the whole picture in my head.

Howzat, I noticed we disagree on the receipe for red eye gravy... must be the part of the country we are from... thicken red eye gravy??? never!! LOL interesting, huh???

Lou

My mom was a professional cook and manager of many different establishments and her way of making red-eye gravy was deglazing the pan with the ham leavings using water or coffee. Buuuuuuut, she and I also make it from the leavings of steak which is ssssoooooooooo good! Ooooohh! Delicious! We used it on our potatoes--either mashed or baked or however they were prepared.

I think that RB's mom was so beaten down by life that telling or complaining to her family or children about ANYTHING that was going wrong just wasn't allowable in her way of thinking. And, how could she complain to her extended family when, although they weren't very well off either, were giving her a roof and whatever else they could do without. The uncles were good to RB and his brothers and gave them attention as a father would. Living like this must just beat you down and down and down. She has gone without for so long that it became an ingrained habit never to ask for more.The embarassment of not having anything decent to wear to church or out to much of anything. Not something that most of us can even imagine.

When he was on C-SPAN, I heard him tell about having a TV that only brought in one station and the female author who was there described her family taking turns being the antenna. Oh yes, I remember antennas! Egad, the world of cable and computers has changed our lives but not the lives of the poor.

Gol-lee! As many recipes for red-eye gravy as fleas on a dog! All new to me, but.....

I must say WHOA here. You are all too far ahead of me, I can only (sorry) take in my aged mind a few chapters at a time, and I would hate to pass by such lovely words, sentences, descriptions and not discuss them. I’ve just reviewed the book through Chapter 12, MERCY, please don’t go so fast.

HOWZAT – wonderful statement you made – “Writers, generally, are loners, taking from the world what they need and giving back books. They aren't, usually, "regular" folks.”

I’ve never thought of writers in that way, quite possibly its true of many of them. They take and take with little consideration for others – those whom they are writing of – should RB have written this book with anonymous names – disguised names?

As we read through these chapters let’s give consideration to the other people, those about whom he writes that are still living, and try to determine their point of view as they read this book – his brothers, his mother particularly.

Harriet gives us another way of looking at RB’s mother, perhaps – “She was a woman who carried self-sacrifice to an extraordinary level and, if she had communicated her needs as her children began to earn money, they surely would have helped even more.”

Could be true, so many ways of looking at these characters that RB is describing for us.

Some posts ago, LOU said ”amazing how the kids could see the differences, but had a harder time with the similarities...” Is this true of RB? At least throughout this book? All he sees is rich kids and the other side, let me quote because I love the way he writes the following:

”You see them every day on their side. On their side, the teacher calls their name in homeroom and they walk with their heads up to her desk to leave their lunch money, and pay their own way. On your side, the teacher calls your name and you stare at the tops of your shoes, waiting for her to check the box beside your name that says “Free,” wishing she would hurry. On their side, the summer glows with bronze beauties in bathing suits at the beach. On your side, people step away from you as you wait in line at the hamburger stand, because you smell like sweat and fertilizer and diesel fuel.

On the other side are cars that don’t tinkle with the sound of rolling beer bottles, and houses that don’t have a bed in the living room. But what really kills you on that other side are the people-the smiling, carefree people-who can just as easily look over into your side and turn their face away.

Then this lovely line, so rich, so descriptive!

”Only the oxygen is richer on your side. It has to be. Because your childhood burns away much, much faster.”

Oh, if I could write like that, I would be at the keyboard all day long!

Back to my point above – if Rick Bragg had not been poor, would either of his two books have been written?

At times he reminds me of Gatsby in THE GREAT GATSBY – by Fitzgerald. But Gatsby was very envious of the rich – is RB so envious that he wants to emulate them?

RB is certainly very aware, but is he envious to the point of making it his life's work to be wealthy? And, again, is this why he has never married for fear of having responsibility.

Is he a very selfish person as HOWZAT believes?

later, ella

Lou, you're right. You cook red-eye down. I don't know why I said that about corn starch. Yes, Ann, steak stuff and pork chop stuff and even lamb chop and chicken stuff make mighty tasty gravies (sauces) cooked that way. Yummers. I can taste it now.

Unless you have been to a tent revival service, or a pentecostal church service you really have no way to identify with what RB is talking about. Preachers that made "drama" out of their sermons and were all over the platform up front, gesturing wildly with their right hand and holding an open Bible in their left, wiping sweat from their faces with a big white kerchief, the parisioners shouting "Amen, brother" and "Tell it, tell it, tell it, brother", their arms reaching toward heaven, sometimes they rose to their feet and began to dance in the spirit. Oh it is awesome and thrilling, even to an agnostic. I chuckle when I think of RB seeing all that food that was served the first time he went.

Yes, RB did (does now) help as his mother will accept it (or make it known that she needs it). I'm sorry I went on so. I guess I was just overwhelmed with all those unmet NEEDS, going on and on and on. This is what unrelenting poverty is, and it still goes on today in the back hills of the South.

Margaret Marie's sisters and their husbands did help with money and food. The BIL's would give her back as change most of the money she gave them to buy groceries with, and RB mentions $20 a month one of his uncles (on the mother's side) gave her.

And, it is impossible to buy teeth and glasses for someone who refuses to go to an appointment.

Howzat

HOWZAT, we were posting together! Don't you dare take back your views, they were great and they add much to our discussion. You made a very good point.

And I go on far too much, sorry!

RB did marry. Stayed married several years. No children, and that was (mostly) the rub. She wanted children, he didn't. The parting was quick and without rancor. RB's F-I-L even helped him buy a house.

After you've read as many memoirs and biographies of writers that I have you begin to believe that what I said about them being "loners" is true. That wives and families learn to "live" with their "quirks" and their being "gone", either physically or closeted away somewhere writing, no to be disturbed. Or else there are divorces and alienation.

Howzat

I HAVE to take back the corn starch in the red-eye. I misspoke.

Howzat

I do not think RB is envious of people who have more money. His problem is that he was uncomfortable because he thought, sometimes rightly so, that people were laughing at his house or his mother or some part of his life. He was fully aware of their feelings towards him. For that reason, he picked some girls for friends and others he did not pick. He felt the "class" differences.

If RB envied anything, I think RB envied others who had a father in their lives. I think he really missed not having a father to complete the family.

Out of his fear, when the woman he married told him she was going to have a baby, he just ran away. RB said that he did not want to be a "weak" man like his dad. Thank goodness, the woman was not pregnant.

Perceptions!!! Here RB was embarrassed about free lunches... and my children brought home the forms and kept saying, Mom you don't have to look for lunch money everyday... just fill out this form... Tells you about this mom... one day I'll get organized, just in time to find the coffin!!!

Wasn't it about this time... in the 60's, that the free lunch program started?? I think it was part of Johnson's what kind of Society?? I knew that word when I started writing and now it's gone... darn... Anywho.... I don't believe anyone was sensitive enough to student's being identified for free lunches then... Now, privacy is so important you'd never, ever call that out in front of the class... And rightfully so, in my opinion...

I'm wondering if the extended family wasn't in financial straights also?? I think they probably had more that RB and his family... but the amount left to share might not have been great???? I haven't gotten to the teeth and glasses part yet... or if I did, it was late and didn't register... RB did buy his car though... wouldn't you have thought he'd help with teeth and glasses before he got a car???

Hats, I think you are onto something here... I'm not sure it was envy either... surely a recognition that his life was completely different than so many others... For years as I was growing up, we all had 3 outfits... one on, one clean and one dirty... period. Mama taught school with 3 dresses period. Now they were new, that is homemade, not secondhand, usually... I'm talking 40's here... and I remember when we moved to Texas and Daddy got his new job... we had chicken for supper... on a week day night, not Sunday dinner after church, and I thought we'd found a gold mind!!! But out of alll that, I have to say, we learned how to stretch a penny... I don't like to, but I know how!!! LOL

Lou

Hats, I think you're absolutely right - the one thing RB felt "shorted" on was a father. I think in his child's mind, later, too, he thought that if he had a daddy in his home, the other things would have somehow worked out. Makes you think about the many fatherless homes in this country and how those children feel. Of course, these days it is more common. But still, not easy.

Hi Lou and Diane,

Diane, I thought of the many fatherless homes too. Reading and thinking about RB made me grateful that I had a dad, and my children had a dad. Whether a woman is abandoned by her husband or becomes a widow early in life, I think the children do feel an emptiness without a father in a home.

One of my son's is going through a devoirce. My grandson is young, but I know that not having his father around will leave a void and a lot that he will have to struggle with later in life.

And, a divorce complicates a home and family so much. Kids have to reverse their feelings everytime they change locations. Or they think that they have to do so. Poor things! Its such a sad way to grow up!

When my mom was widowed at the age of 32, my brother, aged 10 at the time, seemed to be the one who took the most on the chin. He and my dad had a lot in common and hadn't even been able to discover all those wonderful similarities. I, on the other hand, still had my mom who was the leading female in my life, next to my grandmother.

Life just keeps goin' on when you think it would stop and give a person to take a breather once in awhile.

Ann, I love your last sentence - "Life just keeps goin' on when you think it would stop and give a person a breather once in a while". How true!

Sounds as if your mother was a real trouper too, just as mine was. When my mom was widowed for the second time, this time with two in college and two toddlers, and nothing much in the way of insurance or liquid assets, she went back to work as a model. And did alright, too. She was a pretty woman and I think she really enjoyed being pretty. Probably her main claim to fame was to have been chosen as a Lady Clairol which she did for a while. Thing is, I would have really preferred a stay-at-home mom who cooked cookies, etc. But she did what she had to. Her true love was really the stage but when she was growing up her parents considered stage people to be "naughty" and she never pursued it.

Hey, off the subject here. I'll have to check and see what parts of the book I need to review to jump in here. And I really do want to find some of the writing that made me see humor here for you, Ella. You do give such good questions and comments.

Off the topic,too. Diane, did you see my #82 post. Our mothers were cut from the same cloth. I always referred to the women of that time were inflicted with the "Theda Berra(Bara?) Syndrome". But, because they were confident of their looks, they went and did what had to be done! They did it "their way", didn't they? I love it!

HATS commented that RB “felt the class differences.” Indeed, he goes on about that for ever, in every grade he attended. Can you remember incidents in school such as RB relates! He must have been very observant even as a child or have a phenomenal memory.

The first painful episode with the girlfriend, his “steady” girlfriend, is understandable. Don’t you all remember episodes such as that?

Some of you think the worst of his pain was the lack of a father! Of course, true in many instances, but he both loved and hated the man who was his father and I doubt he would have wanted that particular one around for very long.

In chapter 13 he writes of his father’s death and the misery of his father’s phone calls toward the end, I just must quote something here:

”When he died I don’t remember any grief. It would have been artificial to grieve, like bending over plastic flowers laid at a gravesite, and expecting to smell their scent. You never know how brave you will be when you die…….But I know one thing, when I see it coming, if I see it, I will not reach out to the people I hurt in life, and ask them to care.”

His mother answered the frantic phone calls from his father, such a burden for her, wasn’t it? How she did it after the misery he caused her is miraculous! She’s a good woman. But none of them went to the funeral. Can anyone blame them?

I’d like to make a list and put in the heading some descriptive words or phrases that RB uses to give us a picture of what this woman was like. If/when you come across any good ones do type them in and I’ll stick them up there.

HOWZAT – RB MARRIED? A southern girl? Do you know anything more about her? Thanks so much for that information, interesting.

RB did poorly in school, “had dreams, but no ambition.” I would have liked for him to tell us his dreams.

Instead he tells us that of the varied weaknesses in his character, ”the strongest is a desire to live for the moment and let tomorrow slide.”

That’s typical of many teenagers, don’t you think?

However, many poor youngsters vow to grow up and make a success of themselves to avoid future pain and distress. RB did that eventually, but he had no ambition to do so, he even tells us that he worked at the high school newspaper, not for a love of writing which we would expect, but because he thought it was easy.

I had dreams in high school – didn’t you? Do you remember them?

Storms are again on their way here, I must stop – I will not be here on MOTHER’S DAY TOMORROW! So…… all the mothers amongst us you have a very

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY!

RB tells about his marriage in Chapter 18 (page 143 in my hb), even his momma went.

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY, Howzat

HOWZAT! OH! I just discovered that myself as I was reviewing the rest of our section. I had forgotten that but when I came to the line where he bought the ring at Service Merchandise I remembered it well, started smiling (we used to have that store years ago), never bought anything there; not because I disliked the store - I was only in it once!

"I have given more thought to buying cars than I gave to getting married" - Hahaha

How much time did any of us give? Shouldn't we all have had counseling of some sort before we hitch our wagons up to this long-term voyage?

Storms passed - going out for dinner, later, ella

I was stunned by RB's marriage also, Ella. Most particularly by the way he passed on the news.

Bragg breaks the news of his marriage in the last sentence of chapter 17 and, as Howzat tells us, he expands on his marital status at the beginning of Chapter 18. His big fear was responsibility and he doesn't have any pretensions about that,

His very first sentence that relates to his wife (at the end of chapter 17) explains that he accepted an insult from an editor "because he didn't have any choice." He now needed his job. He had a wife to support and responsibilities. Those are the very first words in which I remember Bragg mentioning his wife.

I thought this was sad...even after the marriage was over and he was involved in writing this book, he still thought of her mostly in terms of obligations upon himself. His need to be better than his father...perhaps a better man than he privately thought he was capable of becoming...fell heavily on his soul. In the end, he didn't care to test himself when she talked about having a baby. His wife remains nameless in his book.

His second statement about her is that she "was as pretty as sunshine on roses." I get the feeling that he really must have liked her but such an endearing and beautiful simile was not enough to make their relationship hold together. I imagine such tender whispers must have won her heart during their courtship though.

I have often read that the child of an alcoholic parent carries heavy burdens of adjustment throughout his adult life. Bragg bore a double burden: he had to cope not only with his fear of being temperamentally too much like his irresponsible father, but he had to deal with the reactions with which his early grinding poverty had marked his personality.

Harriet

Happy Mother's Day to all!!

Harriet

Her name is Linda (it's further on in the book, this is my second reading of this book, and I like RB less this time around).

Howzat

My reading schedule has been crazy this month... so I have read almost to the end of this book... and I have to say, RB has done some incredible things... but I have to stay with my first impression... wonderful, descriptive, colorful writing and awful/hard to read!!! I finally came to the teeth and glasses... somehow, by the time RB realized she needed them, I'm beginning to wonder about her... Is she being a martyr (sp???)??? No children to support... life style not expensive... why couldn't she go to Pearl, Lenscrafter, or one of the other million places that do glasses cheap?? I don't know... poor, working hard is one thing... not using your head is another...

Lou

LOU , I wondered the same thing – “poor, working hard is one thing... not using your head is another...”

She couldn’t see, FOR HEAVENS SAKES! Several times RB mentions sending home $100 and she put the money under the mattress! Her boys were all gone! Well, there was the youngest one – always in trouble! But he was grown – was she saving the money to bail him out of jail? Didn’t she owe something to herself along the way?

SHE COULDN’T CHEW, had terrible teeth! Too much! Certainly her brother/sisters-in-law and her son, Sam, could have helped. Why is it RB has to do it all?

They had a TV as RB mentions it (glasses would have been more practical) – sad, though, that when they finally got a telephone his mother had to sit and listen to the frantic and frightened dying calls from her husband. No one else would answer it or listen to him, would you have?

I don’t know if I would have felt anything for him at this time or not; RB states that he didn’t hate him, but couldn’t stand to listen to him, either and didn’t go to his funeral.

”I have been told, now and then, that I got some of my character from him, but it was mostly bad things. Anger….….rage.”

Is RB truly frightened of the similarities? Is that why he didn’t want children?

He wasted high school, had dreams but no ambition; enjoyed life as much as he could and excelled at nothing. Qualities that a mother could be proud of????

All the way through this book he respects and admires his brother, Sam, who worked hard, had a lovely family. RB could have done the same; his Uncle Ed would have willingly given him a good job. So………….

Why didn’t he?

More later -eg

Dave and I will be back Wed... I finished Over but the Shoutin' this AM.. and my mood is anything but beachie... Get to go bookstoring!! (You'd have to live in the back woods of nowhere like I do to understand!!!) So, maybe I'll find a "nice little read" to retore my soul!!!

Lou

Ella, I think you asked us to think of one word to describe RB's momma. If I had to choose, I would choose the word "guilty." I think she feels guilty about the behavior of Mark. Maybe this is why she does not fix her teeth. She feels undeservant of help. I feel like screaming at her and saying it is not her fault. It was their father's fault. She did her best. She loved her boys and never abandoned them.

Lou, have a good time!

IS EVERYONE TOO COLD, TOO WET OR TOO MUCH IN DANGER OF TORNADOES, STORMS, ETC. TO POST?

IT'S OKAY, JUST WONDERED IF YOU ARE ALL OKAY. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU CAN GET BACK ON - WE'LL GO ON AND FINISH THIS SECTION

RB states (pg 105) that he cares too much about appearances and about the facade that the world sees. By this time, after reading all the previous pages, don't we all agree that he stretches this "class" business out a bit too much - too long????

And what did you think of Chapter 15 wherein RB tells us that because he is poor he was suspected of murder? Really???

Did you get the idea from that chapter (p.121) that the murderer of one girl and the paralyzing of another is out of prison and preaching in a church? The murder happened in 1977 and this book was written in 1997 - the guy just spent 20 years in jail for this heinous crime?

Unbelievable!

It must have been frightening, but....BUT......

It woke RB up to the fact that he had no plans for the future and perhaps should get down to it; and he enrolls in college! That lasted one course? Hahahaha A bit of humor there when he said he listed his major as undecided since "THERE WAS NO BOX FOR "BARELY THERE AT ALL.'"

See you all later, I hope! ARe you still around? Want to continue?

I'll just tell you what, RB can wear you out. His unrelenting cataloging of slights (imagined or real) and prejudice that the poor (of all races and ethnicities) put up with all the time makes you want to take a time out now and then. However, RB has such a venal reaction to every single one (and one assumes that he puts each example in the book for a REASON) is wearing. He admits to having a large chip on his shoulder--even today. You keep wanting to back him in a corner and saying, "DEAL with it and shut up". But then, ahem, there wouldn't be a book.

I am just amazed with this second reading at how "surface" he is with relationships. He truly does "live" for being a reporter. And he really IS so good at it that editors everywhere recognize it right away even though he LOOKS like a nearly homeless "street person". He can't cook, he has no furniture. He never stays anywhere longer than "getting the story takes", and he never tells what he "does" in his off time. He mentions girlfriends in passing. I suppose he has no trouble replacing them. I do believe he is upfront with them from the beginning, that he's not for keeps.

But, oh my goodness, can that child write. I have the advantage of having read his collection of newspaper stories "Somebody Told Me". So when he mentions the different sorts of things he covers, I have memory of the "complete" story.

And he is honest and forthcoming about his faults.

So, yes, I want to continue. I've just been on the sidelines licking my wounds. I am reminded of poor Jonathan Edwards (Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God) and how his unrelenting sermons of doom to his flock wearied them so, that after 14 years of it, they turned him out of the pulpit.

Howzat

Howzat, they put up with him for 14 years? That must have taken some stoicism on their part.

I seem to get the feeling about RB's moma that she considers "unworthy" of anything that approaches normal existence. There are "Social Workers" who would see that she had teeth and glasses but she won't admit to being poor or apply for help. False pride!

I do think that RB mentions all of this because he is leading up to telling the reader about the many places that he has seen poverty and written about it. Hmmmmmmm, without his own poverty stricken history, would he care about the world's poverty? Is that what guides him in his choice of subjects for his column/stories over the years? I wonder if he compares his poverty to others poverty that he has seen. Maybe he found that his circumstances, as awful as they were, weren't as bad as other folks around the country and around the world.

Yes, I believe you are mostly right, that RB is drawn to the kinds of stories he writes by the fact that he "recognizes" them a mile away. I don't know if his momma has read his book(s), and we have no way of knowing how she feels about what he's said, but the picture he paints of her is ultimately one of a person with such an intense pride that it precludes "asking for help" of any kind--even RB's.

My parents were the same way. And, they carried the memory of "slights" to their graves. The class system we have here in the United States scarred them forever. Like RB and his mother, my parents went far beyond what I consider "normal" to compensate for their early "poverty" and felt much pride in their survivor skills. To make something out of nothing was the rally cry.

My parents went up in the world. Way up. And my father, like RB, carried his beginnings like a flag. He was boastful about it. But my mother never did believe she really belonged in her new status even though she thoroughly enjoyed the "perks" that went with it.

An example. Scratch biscuits are quick and easy to make. They are so much more delicious than "store bought" it is no contest, to me. My mother used store bought biscuits from the time they came out (horrible things, then) since she felt "scratch" was "poor". Go figure.

Howzat

HEY, SOME OF US ARE STILL HERE AND ASKING QUESTIONS ABOUT RB, WONDERING, WHAT IS HE REALLY LIKE?

BUT DOES IT MATTER - AS HOWZAT SAID -

"oh my goodness, can that child write."

Still we do ponder as to why he writes what he does? And, ANN, has a partial answer.....

without his own poverty stricken history, would he care about the world's poverty?

Those are two of the reason why we continue to read him, his detail, you feel you are in the room with him at times feeling his "joy and despair."

His story about living and dying in New York, on page 129, is masterful - and awful at the same time! A wall! "Embroidered with thousands of names."

He writes about violence and tragedies and sadness, sorrow.

HOWZAT - are most of the stories in the collection you mentioned on the subject of poverty and violence?

When you think about it, unless you are a war correspondent, or a political reporter, what else do you write about for a paper? Violence, tragedy makes news! People want it, they want it on TV, they want to read about it. And RB writes it very well.!

I must confess I never read those kind of stories in the newspaper - I've been accused of burying my head in the sand; furthermore I don't read the sports pages either so RB, even if he were a columnist for my paper, would never have received much attention from me.

Can it be true that his newspaper sent RB to interview the man who dug the grave of Bear Bryant? That's ridiculous!

"I was slowly beginning to realize that the only thing that was worth writing about was living and dying and the trembling membrane in between. I have never been a ghoul. I have been so sickened by killing and dying that sleep was just one more dream in bed at 4 a.m. But even then, I was drawn to those stories. There was something about the rich darkness of it, of that struggle by people at risk, people in trouble, that made all other stories seem trivial. They were the most important stories in the newspaper. I wanted to write them, only them"

That is RB's explanation.

But life is a "tembling membrane?" What do think of that description?

"I love writing the way some men love women."

Do you agree that is the reason his marriage failed? There are many men and women who choose not to have children and have a happily married life, the fact that he did not want children is not a good reason for a failed marriage.

later, ella

I think the "trembling membrane" might be the "earth" or the "world" ? HMMMMMM! Well, I like the way he writes and its true that the killing and dying of peoples over the earth are the main stories given to us today in the newspaper. The joke was on me in 1992 when I went to a "photo exhibit by journalists" in San Diego's biggest park. It was all about war and violence and death. How depressing! What did I think I was going to see? An Ansel Adam's exhibit?

All journalists find a "peg" on which to "hang" their stories. With so much coverage of Bear Bryant's life and death, the grave digger story was a clever "peg" Rb used to get his story in among all the others. You'll find the "peg" in the first paragraph of all news stories, like the little white Easter shoes of the little girls killed when the tornado hit the church, the shoes were in the rubble. Sometimes in novels you'll find the peg for the whole book on the first page.

Most of RB's stories are about the "spirit" of mankind in the face of "odds". This spirit is less noticable in the wealthy and comfortable, although they have it just like everyone else.

Yes, many writers have trouble with personal relationships because the writing is more important to them than any thing else. The same is true with all sorts of things--"where the heart is".

Maybe the "trembling membrane" is that space between here and there. You are alive one moment, then you are dead.

It occured to me last night that RB drags around his accumulated past like the Dickens Ghost of Christmas Past drug his chains. RB realizes this but is reluctant to cut any of them loose.

His wife DID want children. The marriage broke up because of this.

Howzat

Even in art exhibitions, ANN? Are we saying that RB chose a good profession??? Is it? I believe he is saying that writing and the schedule one must keep is a formula for unhappiness in a marriage, isn’t that what you understand?

Do you know any reporters or authors who are happily married? Or is there a difference between writing books and being a reporter or journalist?

YES, A “PEG” to hang a story on! I like that, HOWZAT, and I agree you usually get it in the first sentence or two to grab your attention. Or the headline, maybe, grabs you – it should! As I remember being taught somewhere a good reporter must answer five things in his news report – what, why, when, to whom, (UH-OH! – I forget the other!).

As I asked this question in a group email I just sent out, I’ll put it right here for our consideration:

WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE AN INDIVIDUAL NEEDS TO DO TO GET INTO HEAVEN?

Somewhere in the first half of the book, RB says he believes that if you just try to do right, you will have passed the test and will cross the river when the “trembling membrane” becomes still.

Is this enough? Of course, being the writer he is he must prattle on (don’t we all wish we could do his kind of “prattling?”) on with more comments – "We all try to buy our way into heaven, one way or the other. Some use the genuine currency of faith. But others, like me, try to barter."

Haven’t we all, at times, bartered - said a prayer that begins something like – LORD, IF YOU JUST HELP ME GET THROUGH THIS, I WILL……..

I have, it’s a human thing! Don’t you think every soldier in battle does this “human thing” now and then?

More later, ella

I am agnostic. I don't believe there is a hereafter. We have to get it all done before we die. There is no second chance.

I hate it when I hear adults consoling little kids that their loved one is looking down from Heaven. I certainly wouldn't want my mother to see me cry tears of regret and anguish and mourning yet today and she's been dead since February 11, 1999. She loved me so, it would break her heart over and over to see my misery and not be able to do anything about it.

Howzat

Hi Ella and Howzat,

Ella, In order to experience Heaven or any happy hereafter, I think we have to learn how to treat and love our fellowman. There is so much sadness in RB's book. I hope that people who have died violent deaths without reason will live a happy life after this one. If I had to think my parents were gone forever, and I would never see them again, I would feel so unhappy.

Believing in an hereafter helps some people to go on living after they become widows, widowers or lose their children to death. RB's mother lost her baby to death in the book. I think her faith must have helped in some way.

I had to finish the book yesterday. I am so glad you picked it. Now, my husband is going to read it.

I can't imagine living life without believing in a hereafter, though I know many who don't agree. It is the stuff of nightmares and wonderful dreams...

Hope I'm not jumping too far here, but I've been wondering about Haiti... Aren't his tales of Haiti just heart wretching? Has anyone kept up to date on what's happening there now? I sure hope things are better in that poor beleagured country, but somehow I fear they aren't. With so much going on in the world it's hard to keep up with it all... I would think it would take a lot of nerve to go there... and that is such an awful thing to say, with all the children that live and die there with no choice... hard, hard, hard... to even think about...

Lou

Ella
The crossing of that trembling membrane?The process of "osmosis"? HMmmmmm! Well, I didn't receive a group email from you but hope it wasn't anything to worry about. I haven't finished the book yet but am awaiting his mother being able to see and chew. Last time that I saw him on C-SPAN, someone asked RB about those two things and he said that she hadn't done anything about those things yet but that she did have a house. I assume that he bought it for her.
Howzat
An "agnostic"? Somewhere back in the dark ages, I learned that an 'atheist' says that he/she doesn't believe in 'god'. But an agnostic says if there is a god, I believe. Is that wrong? Or does belief in heaven or an afterlife automatically mean that belief in 'god' precludes that belief?
Hats

Does this discussion seem familiar? Like the one over in "Religion Related Books" and also, in "Spritual Issues" out on the big board inside the discussion folders for "Religion and Spirituality"? Another hmmmmm!??

Lou, I read the part about Haiti. It was "heart wrenching." At that point, I almost felt like not reading further. I wanted to protect myself from so much pain. I read on. I know with pain comes growth, even pain that is not experienced close hand or personally.

I have not heard about Haiti lately in the news, but maybe that is because we are so involved with the terrorist problems. There are so many problems in the world. I do hope that one day that country will be released, in some way, from the bandits that hold this country captive. I do not know the political side of the situation. I just know that there is overwhelming injustice there.

I knew that Haiti was a poor and troubled nation before reading RB's book. His book made what I knew more visual. I will never forget how he described the man trying to push the woman's insides back after she had been hacked to death.

These are the type of people that need to experience a better life after this one. I think especially of starving children and the children who grow older after seeing violence all of their lives. It is possible that living by violence will become the only pattern that they know.

Also, New York left me heartbroken too. The small businessmen who strive to just do a little work everyday, but they are haunted by fear that their lives might be taken in violence.

My father owned a tailor shop all of my life in Philadelphia. After being in business for years, we were robbed during the Xmas holidays. Our family was not hurt physically, but soon after, my father closed the shop and retired.

All of his life, he had pressed clothing, sewed cuffs, etc. He kept a thimble in his pocket with his change. Tailoring was his whole life and because of people who chose one night to take what he had worked for all of our lives changed.

Being robbed is an experience that is unforgettable. After such an experience, you always look behind your back. You never feel safe again. It is a very emotional experience. I will never forget the guy who RB wrote about in his book. The one who had chosen to have a shield put up around his business for protection. Unfortunately, the worker did not keep his appointment. This man's brother or one of his relatives was killed soon after. The guy always wondered whether having a shield put up would have protected his relative from death.

I think we are talking about pages off schedule. I am not sure. Ella, I did not mean to get off schedule. Please forgive.

Hi Ann, this discussion does sound familiar. I am thinking of the one going on now and our Abraham discussion.

Ella, I received your friendly reminder.

An agnostic believes there is a beginning "something" but they are not sure just what that something is. Agnostics do not believe in Heaven or Hell but some of them do believe that humans are part of the "stuff" of the Universe, which is constantly being recycled. Agnostics generally believe that dead is dead. I'm sure there must be some out there that believe in reincarnation and all sorts of other stuff, bordering on mysticism. Most Jews do not believe in an afterlife.

Unfortunately, most Haitians are still as bad off as they ever were. The rich ones are still living the good life up in the hills. But the country is so dismal and dangerous I can't imagine what sort of life that would be. And foreign investors are staying away in droves. Like Afghanistan, investment is waiting for stability--the people there are growing poppies again and I certainly can't blame them.

RB has too tender a heart to stay long in places like Haiti. He has a hard enough time getting over the misery he finds right here in the States. He talks tough, but don't you believe it. Reporters report. Then it is up to others who read their words or see their visuals on TV to do something about what reporters find. This means that reporters and photographers routinely walk right past the dying, the hungry, and the victims of all the meanness and injustice that this world has to offer. Their part is to tell about it, show it.

Ella, the print media editors want "Who, What, Where, When, and How". Also, in the week of May 22, that should be page 250 instead of 150.

Howzat

Our daughter is going to a third world country this summer for a few weeks... kinda of as a "try it" trip to see if she could live in a country like that... I think I can handle the few weeks... She told a friend that Mom hopes she's get over it with this trip... and she's right. I do want those folks to have help, compassionate people to assist and teach... I'm just having a hard time with it being one of mine who's going... selfish, aren't I???? Need, dispair, want in the midst of plenty... Oh, Lord...

Lou

Hats, my heart aches for incidents that happen to folks like your father... Someone broke into a friend's house and emptied all her "stuff" out of drawers, cupboards, etc... she talked about cleaning up... washing everything and the feelings of violation... How in the world can you ever trust again???

Can anyone remember what our forces went into Haiti about not too many years ago? Seems like I heard something fairly recently about that, but of course, I can't remember what is was all about...

Lou

Lou, your daughter must be very compassionate. What a wonderful experience for her, but I can also understand your fears. I can not remember why our forces were sent to Haiti. All I can really remember is what RB wrote. I think he mentioned that they were there as peace keeping forces. I would like to know more too. My memory is terrible.

LOU – I found a few references to the Haitian/United States relationship on the Internet – I’m sure there are more, but I’ll help by providing these links:

Haiti

Haiti

Haiti

Excellent review of the situation today in this link:

Review of a book

RB”s book was written in 1997, but since then Aristide was been elected President again; however it doesn’t seem to have made any difference whatsoever.

RB states "I was warned by one of the foreign editors not to predict in my story a judgment day acoming for Haiti. It would be premature. But it is hard not to expect some cataclysm. HOW CAN IT GO ON AND ON LIKE THIS?"

HOWZAT stated that "RB has too tender a heart to stay long in places like Haiti"; but he is a contradiction – a very complex person. He states in one place in this chapter on Haiti – "I had a hell of a story to do and I would be happy for as long as it lasted."

He needs these kind of stories to fulfill his love of writing. I’m not sure in my mind if he believes that these stories will help anything – any situations - if he is doing it with a purpose other than just knowing the story will be told – written well – and get good coverage in the paper.

Is he altruistic? What do you think?

Thanks, HOWZAT, for keeping me informed about all manner of things, I need all the help I can get!

LOU – my daughter was an exchange student at the age of 17. She went to Columbia and, against the wishes of the wealthy family she stayed with, she went with a group of other American students to the poor section of Bogota and took many pictures of their shacks, their poverty, their way of life – heartbreaking pictures! She was there for three months and it certainly opened her eyes to the world and how good we have it in America.

Let’s go on to the next question –

ARE YOU NOSTALGIC FOR YOUR HOMETOWN AS IT WAS? ARE THE CHANGES THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IN CITIES IN AMERICA FOR THE LAST FEW DECADES GOOD OR BAD?

RB goes home for a few months at the age of 29. Have you gone back lately to the place you were born, or the place where you grew up? What was it like?

I'm sorry for how much I've fallen behind, Ella. I've been having a busy few days. I'm working on trying to catch up on my reading.

I think it's possible for a complex person like RB to be both compassionate and callous at the same time. Recently I was listening to the musical score of Man of La Mancha. Man of La Mancha has been staged pretty often as a play, a movie, and even a current revival on the Broadway stage. I guess that's because it's still so moving...tackling the lovable insanity of a man so moved by the injustices of this earth that he feels he MUST help, but too sensitive to handle the problems in his right mind.

In his delusions, he becomes a knight errant, Don Quixote...seeking "the impossible quest," trying to "right the unrightable wrongs," yearning to repair the inequities of our world.

So...maybe I'm not the only one who sees any similarities between Don Quixote and our angry Rick Bragg? He tilts at the windmills of our world, writes about the poverty stricken and disenfranchised because he identifies with them and genuinely cares. Remember how proud he was of making a difference when he wrote about the 6 year old boy, Dirty Red, who had been unfairly arrested for assaulting a 7 year old girl? (Chapter 25)

But RB doesn't have the strength to deal with the more PERSONAL difficulties of his brother, Mark...the pain and guilt of that relationship makes him run away. Also, having climbed out of the life of poverty personally, there is now a limit to how much he dares to saturate himself before he feels himself sliding back into the old familiar mindset of hopelessness.

Howzat, I think you expressed it so well...he has "a tender heart," but he has learned to over-involve himself in his writing in order to avoid more pain than he can bear. Emotionally he lives a hit-and-run life. Reality on a personal level is where others live... but he's had enough of that in his earliest years and now observes from a safer place?

Ella, I love the way you described this gifted writer as a "contradictory" and "complex" man.

Harriet

Wow!!! You ladies have done a wonderful job with the workings of RB's mind!! Harriet, of course, you are right!! Never would your analysis have entered my mind... and reading it just now, I just kept saying, of course, of course!!! Isn't it amazing how one things leads to understanding another??? I can certainly identify with understanding others' problems and having a hard time with our own... As a matter of fact, I'm been dealing with that for the last week and just have to say, it isn't easy!!

Lou

It's amazing how RB can do a slam-dunk on your mind with his observations. When he tells about his early writing years in sports only, he makes the point of how sports fans are a mixed bag of people from every walk of life--social, economic, political, and religious. Rooting for their team, in the stands, they seem to get along fine, ignoring the "boundary lines" imposed by society. I had not thought of it before, but this is true (of course, there are some arguments over umpires and team strategy).

This was earlier in the book, but I'm just now remembering it.

Howzat

Dear Ella,

How nice to be missed! Thank you for your note. I am so new to the Seniors groups and so hungry for book talk, I overdid my May group selections. I am also in the 'Nine Tailors' group and loving it. Now I realize it is May 16 and I have just gotten a copy of Donna Tartt's book--the June selection. When I picked it up and realized it is 500+ pages, I knew I was in a pickle! Sooo--I'm reading 'Little Friend' now trying to stay up with the June group. (Did I say I read like a snail?) Anyway, I apologize for the absence of comments and participation in this group.

I am amazed at the breadth and depth of the comments you folks have made re the RB book. It's exciting to see such bright minds at work. As I read, I wondered how many in the group are writers. Many of you, I'd imagine.

Anyhow, and more to the point, I find the RB memoir amazing. The pictures he paints through his metaphors tear at my heart. His characters are so simple and complicated and loving and chronically exhausted and self-sacrificing and brave. And his daddy....Oh, Lord.

I was a beginning toddler on Pearl Harbor Day. The War was over before I started school. So I remember that time through early eyes: the stoic expressions on people's faces, the private tears, the hollow feeling in my stomach when the bus drove away with my uncle in his sailor suit, the scary poster at the post office that depicted Tojo as a hideous rat, my daddy's whiskey breath, my certainty that the Japanese soldier under my bed would cut out my heart with his sword if I got too near the edge.

I had tucked all these things in the fringes of my memory until Rick Bragg. I suppose war is war no matter where in the world it is fought and all children suffer the same fears. Bragg's stories brought that time back in living color.

I thought RB's description of his daddy's experiences in Korea and his observations re his daddy's family (especially Rick's paternal grandma and crazy grandpa)said all he needed to say about the origins of his daddy's behavior. It was masterful.

Pardon my ramblings. Once I get caught up in the thoughts generated by RB's book I lose my 'off switch'. I am pleased to be a member of this insightful group.

Pat in Texas

HARRIET – I’M SO GLAD YOU ARE BACK AMONG US WITH YOUR INSIGHTFUL COMMENTS – I’ve been humming the Impossible Dream all day long, but can’t remember many of the words so I’m quite bored with myself..my humming. I should look it up on the Internet, but it’s been one of those days…..one of those bad hair days…everything bad….everything I tried to do turned out wrong! And here it is bedtime and I’m just posting!!!!

RIGHT THE UNRIGHTABLE WRONGS! RB? Do you think so? He is a reporter and I think he’s too busy reporting – too busy with his job and making a living to “right the wrongs;” however, don’t you imagine every person who sees the poverty and the injustices – the have-nots of this world – would like to help if they could. By painting the picture in words RB is helping in his way.

I liked that idea also, HOWZAT, of sports being the great equalizer; thanks for that reminder in the book and….

PAT IN TEXAS! How nice to have you join us. When in the books; especially if you are new to the books, it is a great temptation to DO THEM ALL! HOW I - NO, HOW WE - WOULD ALL LOVE TO BE IN ALL OF OUR DISCUSSIONS AT ONE TIME, but it’s impossible and you soon find out that you cannot do it and do justice to a good author, a good writer!

I’ve learned to choose just one, although it’s hard isn’t it!!! Thanks for stopping by.

Hi LOU – did you read one or two of those Haitian links? The last one was the best I thought.

Let’s answer one of the questions posed awhile back. RB went back home for an extended visit with his Momma; seemed to enjoy it and wrote some stories about the down-home folks.

My question is have you gone back lately to your hometown, the place where you grew up? What reaction to it did you have? What changes did you see and were they good for the town – for you?

A couple of years ago I went back to my town, whose population hasn’t changed much over the years - Wal-Mart built on the edge of it, and like bees to the honey, all those awful fast food places swarmed around it and just ruined the old downtown area. Most of the stores there sit empty although you can see an attempt has been made to bring the people back where they used to shop. The corner drug store – we had one, honestly – the shoe store, Style Shop (where we oo’d and ah’d as teenagers over the newest fashions); the stationery store, hardware store – ALL GONE.

It’s sad and I revisited a few homes that brought back many memories, although in truth I did not need to see those houses again as they are in my memory book.

Let’s take time away from the book for a day and reminisce about our youth and our hometown, the folks we knew, do any of them still live there?

Ella, you should know better than to ask reminiscing questions! We will bowl you over with our thoughts! Hahahaha!

Have I been back to my ole' hometown lately? Well, as you know, Ella, I spent a week there last year and have never stopped bragging about the improments that have been made. A completely restored and improved downtown area, with museums( don't miss the Indian museum which is a wonderful collection of Indian artifacts donated by the native family), theatres, a zoo, botanical gardens plus I discovered the Art Museum for the first time and was just bowled over. And, of course, there's the Children's Museum which is like an annex to the Smithonian. I-MAX there also. I remember when it was so small that you could go through it in 2 hours, now it takes several days. Do I go on and on here? Well, it was a pleasant vacation. Beautiful flowers all over the place, brick walks, new condos and homes on the river and the canal, a new blue bottom for the canal which makes you feel like you are in someplace in the Carribean. You can rent all sorts of water transportion vehicles plus bicycles. Hotels, gorgeous shopping, connected by airwalks! This is not the town that I left when young because it was so boring! Is this really Indianapolis, Indiana!! It can't be! There's a lot to see and mucho parking available. Do they have a trolley? Not that I am aware of. But, I will write the mayor and tell him/her to put one on the streets. The best part was that I saw it with my ever present traveling companion, Sister Mary!

Like my children, I had many hometowns... but the one on Route 66, El Reno, Oklahoma is the one I'd like to talk about. We lived across from the elementary school. There was a tunnel so no one would have to cross Route 66 on foot. Wonderful Carnagie library complete with the lions that we walked to on Saturdays.. We would pick up my grandmother on Saturday evening and park in the downtown area so she could visit with friends that were in town shopping. The JC Penney store was there as well as Kelso's.. and the corner drug store where we chose cherry lime aids... (Ever had one? Still the most refreshing things on a hot summer day!!!) Our little house is still there... I had to laugh when I saw it... I always thought I was such a big girl when I could jump off the porch all the way to the ground... turns out it's all of 12 inches high!! We always felt picked on cause we had to walk to the library... those miles we walked turned out to be 2 blocks!! Downtown is almost empty now... shopping areas at the edge of town on the interstate have replaced the old stores... our old school is gone and there are several elementary schools... as well as other big beautiful schools.. Guess when Route 66 left, much of the town went with it. We would count cars setting in the porch swing, I'd take red and my sister blue.. she always won!! Lots of relatives still live there, so we visit though not as much as we'd like to..

Yes, Ella, I read the last link to Haiti... sounds like it's still a mess there. I purchased some wonderful lizards to hang on our garage wall at the beach... as we hung them today I realized they were made in Haiti. The lady at the shop said they were made from old oil drums. Wonderful colors and imaginative designs... I hope they, the Haitians, got a goodly portion of the money we paid for them, though I'm sure not nearly enough. I realized that might be one way we could help them... to look for imports from Haiti...

So, while I'm still not at peace with RB's book, it has given me value for the read...

Lou

OH, ANN! Indianapolis!!! That’s a big city and, of course, it’s beautiful – was it always so? Are you talking about the downtown area (such as our downtown area in Columbus, OH , which the city has been trying to save for years and years and it’s almost hopeless?) The downtown area has survived suburbs and shopping centers??? If so, I congratulate the city fathers! Thanks for telling us about it.

CARNEGIE LIBRARY!! Yes, we had one, also, LOU! And when I grew up I read the biography (or two maybe) of Andrew Carnegie; I wanted somehow to thank that man for giving us, and many small towns across America, a library!

And Saturday evening shopping, LOU! Yes,yes, we did that, too, everyone was downtown on Saturdays, you just had to go and walk up and down to see and talk to all your friends.

What happened to Route 66??? Isn’t it there – MERCY ON US! Remember the old TV show with that name? And your downtown sounds like my own, going to the dogs, it is.

The Haitians are making crafts and selling them in the States? That could be a wonderful thing for them and I hope they succeed at it. Do you remember when we were young imported Japanese products were sold and they were so cheap – toys for the most part, I think, weren’t they? We thought they were junk, and NOW – NEED I SAY MORE!

You live near a beach, LOU? Is it “Paradise?” RB thought so when he was hired as a reporter for the St. Peterburg Times and a couple of the stories he wrote were very different in content than his usual. A CHICKEN, NAMED MOPSY, WHO HAD BEEN ATTACKED BY A BOBCAT – and an ALLIGATOR HUNT IN THE EVERGLADES.

”The people were different. Law did not quire reach Okeechobee. It was there, upon seeing a shoe lying in the middle of the road, I actually got out to see if there was still a foot in it. It was there that I met a fishing guide named Jimmy who never, ever wore shoes, who never noticed the mosquitos that feasted on him, who talked only when he wanted to and that wasn;t much. I will never forget sitting in a boat with him on one of those pitch-black nights, and hearing him clear his throat.

(Notice all those phrases beginning with the word “who.” A technique he uses often to make the sentences flow like water in a slow stream.)

The guide told him he had eaten dog before and when RB asked him why, the guide said it was in my yard! Hahaha

Later, ella

AN ALERT!!! HEADS UP!!!

The New Orleans Festival in which Rick Bragg participated, is being shown again - RIGHT NOW!!! TURN ON YOUR TV'S!

We are about 3 hours from the beach, Ella, but when your mom is 97 and you are the caretaker, you need all the breaks you can get.. and I'm serious with that one... On our way home, I swear I saw an allegator in a pond, lake, waterfeature along the highway... We didn't have time to stop and turn around to check it out... I don't know.... There are salt water marshes on the way to the inn we love and always there are lots of birds there.. Oh, how that water and birds and sea life take away worries and soothe the savage beast!!! Somehow I think Florida and RB's experiences are once in a lifetime adventures!!!

Yes, Route 66 just disappeared... with the Interstates.... It was really something... "Get your kicks on Route 66".. remember that???

When you get bored let me know and I'll have my hubby tell you all about eating dog.... and other things that will make you not want to eat for a long while!!!

Lou

Hi LOU! I've been to Florida several times and occasionally if you get away from civilization there you see alligators sunning themselves on the banks of a pond, river, whatever! WE've seen small ones, never a large one and...

NO, THANKS, I'LL SKIP THE STORIES ABOUT EATING DOG!

Anyone else around? Did any of you see Rick Bragg on BookTV?

There is a difference, I know, between memoirs and autobiographies, but I'm not sure what it is. I know I've read two memoirs that Neil Simon wrote of his life - terrific if you are ever bored - and I'm hoping he will write one more before he dies!

Is that the difference? You can write a memoir at any age, whereas an autobiography should compress your entire life into one book?

Is everyone finished reading the book and do you want to continue? Would you like to continue with the WHOLE BOOK NOW, rather than just chapters? Critique the book as a whole?

Let me know your desires, I'm here to please everyone!

Ella, I have been waiting for the appropriate time to talk about the chapter he wrote about his father... and the Pulitzer dinner... I can't see the future in not going ahead and addressing the whole book now... Everyone seems to be gearing up to June... but of course, whatever the majority want is fine by me.

Lou

Haven't been here for two days. Spent yesterday at three of the grans dance and gymnastics show. They have so many kids in that school that they use the Vets Memorial in Columbus which holds 4500 people and its always almost filled with parents, grandparents, ggrandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. They all come! What a show! Great fun! There's even a hot dog and pizza plus drinks stand out in the lobby and people coming and going constantly. Would you believe 4 stalls in the womens bathroom? Yes, you would believe that, wouldn't you!

Since I haven't finished the book yet, I will run right downstairs where my husband is watching the Indy 500 Time Trials and read for the evening and get back here tomorrow.

By the way, did anyone else hear RB's comment on biographies that go on and on about how mistreated the author was since he/she's parents didn't buy them the things other kids had?

What everyone else wants to do is fine with me.

Howzat

OKAY ALL! LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR FAVORITE CHAPTER OR JUST ONE OF THEM NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE IN THE BOOK

LOU - The chapter describing the Pulitizer Prize and dinner is on page 292 and is titled VALIDATION!

Please someone tell me what you think RB's constant (somewhat irritating to me) phrase - "getting even with life" means? I've struggled for meaning long enough - I want to hear it from you.

And validation? Well that no doubt means, at long last, someone recognizes him for his talent, he can't go any further than the Pulitizer Prize - the top honor in journalism.

He doesn't exactly sound like the "gentry" yet -

"I didn't have a toothbrush or a change of clothes. I got to New York too late to buy anything except the toothbrush. The night before the second-greatest day of my life, I washed my underwear in the sink with fruit-scented shampoo, and hung them on a lamp to dry."

I'll ask a question from one of those in the link in the heading:

DOES HAVING BEEN BORN POOR MEAN THAT A PERSON WILL ALWAYS FEEL INFERIOR TO THOSE WHO WEREN'T?

"getting even with life"... I don't remember that phrase... interesting, isn't it, Ella??? Drove you crazy and I don't even recall seeing it!! I think your definition of validation is the answer... "Well that no doubt means, at long last, someone recognizes him for his talent, he can't go any further than the Pulitizer Prize - the top honor in journalism." Being recognized and given credit... getting even with life??? Could that be it??? I want to reread this chapter... I loved it the first time through and want to be sure to get it right!! Right back... as our grandson says!!

Lou

In Bragg's case the effects of his early poverty run deep. There is an expression:

"You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy."

It seems approprate in this case. I loved the chapter titled VALIDATION. It was such an emotional trip into RB's personal life and his relationship with his mother. The tears came to my eyes when I read it. Yet, at the same time I was also shocked at the depth of his mother's lack of connection with modern life.

This wonderful, strong woman who had faced down an abusive husband and had successfully protected her children when they were small WAS AFRAID OF EVERYTHING,,,,ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. She had hidden from anything that wasn't directly important in raising her children for years and years and had allowed the gap between the normal world and herself to widen until she had no way to jump back into the swing of everyday life.

When I consider RB's accomplishments in personally bridging the immense gap between his mother's world of fears and the journalistic world of the New York Times as he grew up, I'm awed. All of his peculiarities and insecurities fade into insignificance when I consider where this man started in life and the attitudes he overcame in order to win the honors that he earned. To tell you the truth, looking at the world through his mother's eyes gave me more of a picture of his childhood upbringing than ALL of his wonderful anecdotes.

I felt like I was reading a Cinderella story when RB told about his mother's reactions to airplanes, Broadway lit up at night, hotels with room service and New York skyscrapers.

His mother was his role model...Bragg succeeded in taking the BEST of her personality into himself and overcoming the most incapacitating of her dysfunctionality as he grew up. GOSH I LOVED IT! Momma is a stubborn woman. She won't accept dental work, she limits the ways in which her children can help her, but when she went to New York with her son to watch him accept the Pulitzer, it was an extraordinarily heroic and loving act.

It meant a lot to Bragg that the "fancy" people in his home town would now stop to chat with his momma to congratulate her because of HIS new prestige. He himself had much difficulty dealing with his own honored status. When his colleagues applauded him in the NY Times newsroom, he wrote:

"I felt stupid, as if, by whittling down the chip on my shoulder, I had nicked away part of my brain."

Harriet

And before I could get off and reread... Here is Harriet... Wonderful comments!!! Amen!!

Lou

The publisher and editor found RB dreaming at the Pulitzer wall… “But Frankel smiled, warm, not mocking.” “It was a good moment, the kind you would like to press between the pages of a book, or hide in your sock drawer, so you could touch it again.” Has RB finally come to a place where he can accept, without mocking??? Or not read mocking into other’s genuine praise??

Mama says “I don’t tell you a lot, but I am very proud of you. I look at you and know I didn’t do no bad job, not altogether.” So the praise, validation for RB’s accomplishments was also her validation????

Mama said “I’m glad you got out.” And then “One day maybe you can come home”. Maybe someday, she said, when I have what I want, when the car I am chasing like some mutt, just stops, and I have to decide: “Fine. I’ve caught it. Now what?”” This makes me wonder, What makes a place “home”??? When you could retire/go anyplace in the world, how do you chose “the” place to call home???

On NPR the other morning a couple were talking about their first big break… Finally, money enough to go to a “real” restaurant to celebrate… They ended up at a wonderful French place and ordered all the desserts on the menu and that was their dinner!!! I thought about Mama…. A fruit torte, a wedge of chocolate mousse cake, a plate of strawberries, a slice of what looked like mango cheesecake and a parfait tucked under her arm”…. I would love to have been a mouse in the corner watching her enjoy that!!!

Doesn’t it just warm your heart to see the care the folks at the Times showered on Mama?? Switching nametags at the luncheon… treating her like a queen…. Chatting with her to keep her at ease…. And then my tears reading about her tears… Didn’t you cry?? Mama didn’t sob, but I almost did!!!

But, then at the end of the chapter, just when I thought things were better, here RB comes again…. “I wanted it to shove down the throats of the people who questioned my sophistication, my very existence among them”… And so, Ella, how right you are… he is still not gentry… hasn’t come far enough in that pickup of his to realize HE’S the one making the big deal about his background… still with the chip on his shoulder, if he mocks first than theirs doesn’t count???

Lou

I wish I hadn't gone ahead and finished this book earlier as there is so much to grab onto and swirl around. But it doesn't stay as fresh as I thought it would.

Just a few thoughts - wouldn't a book about (or even BY) Mama be an eye-opener? She probably wouldn't be comfortable opening up but to know what she had been thinking and feeling all those years would be great.

And just a phrase that tickled me, and I'm pretty sure it was from this book, describing a newly-met person as being so "cool" - like the underside of a pillow. More or less that's how it went. I guess I really connected to that because of my own habit during the night of constantly flipping my pillow over to get to the cool side. So, aha! -someone else knows about that too!

I say this about so many books but I think I would like to read this book again someday. Perhaps more slowly. And I hope someday to catch RB on television.

Well, Ella, everyone has responded to your questions so profoundly that I don't know what to say.

I was amazed when Mama finally went to New York and brought to tears by the special treatment that she received from RB's coherts and bosses. He still doesn't understand that he is the one placing himself at the bottom of the ladder and there really isn't anything that anyone can say or do about that attitude. He will have to do that himself. I really enjoyed this whole book after going further into where he brings Mama to NYC for the Pulitzer awarding and buys her the house. Wasn't that fight between Sam and Mark a delicate touch on RB's side? Just to let the reader know that the anger of growing up so poor, the memories of a sad sack father, the unacceptance at school, even by the teachers, digging through the trash at the dump to find something worth selling or using, the smoke and sweet smell of the things that they took home, remains there as a chip on all their shoulders, if they let themselves admit it. Its a horrble place to be, not accepting one's self as worthy. Just worhty! My g--! I doubt if he will ever get rid of that chip completely.

The best line in the final chapters IMHO, was Momma's when she looked up at the buildings on Peachtree St in Atlanta. He writes, "We took a walk down Peachtree Street. At one point Momma stared up at the skyscrapers and made a dismissive grunt. "Ain't nothin' like New York, she said. Now, them's some buildin's." She has arrived in the world of the others. I wonder how she feels. Does she have the chip on her shoulder that RB has? Somehow, I don't think so. Her acceptance of her life seems pretty sincere. Hmmmm!

P.S. Just called to discuss something with Ella and her husband tells me that she is a bit under the weather so might not be her for a day or two. Hang in there, gang! This has been a good discussion about a very good book written by a many talented author with sadness and humor woven in such a way that one couldn't not finish the tale that he tells.

You've said everything I would have said. Of course we can't know for sure unless Momma writes her own book, but I don't think she carries the baggage of the past like RB does. She's been there, done that. I do feel she really enjoys her house. It's a shame there isn't a friend or family member, that's also now alone, to live there with her. Who knows? Maybe she likes being alone. My aunt Eudie did. While she encouraged visits, she didn't want people staying too long.

ELLA, get well soon.

Howzat

Hi Ella, Get well soon!

Take care of yourself, Ella, and get better quickly.

Harriet

You are missed, Ella, but take whatever time you need and really get better. We'll wait for you.

Just managed to get to the computer for a little while, but don't plan on staying here. I've never felt so lousy in life!

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU HAVE POSTED. Several of you mentioned RB's mother and loving to hear her story - SO WOULD I! From the perspective of a woman, a mother and not one that can't knock the chip off jer shoulder.

HOWZAT - why don't you email RB again and tell him how much we enjoyed his book, but he should persuade his dear mother to write her memoirs. He could edit it for her, we'd all love to read it.

There are three sections to the book - THE WIDOW'S MITE (which we discused), LIES TO MY MOTHER (which we touched on lightly) and then the last one "GETTING EVEN WITH LIFE" - and I don't understand what he means.

Any comments?

YOu all would know what was wrong with me if I told you I drank a gallon of cranberry juice (well, the big size) and drowned myself in water! You know - I've had this trouble before but not like this! My whole body hurts, am very weak, I have congestion in my chest, the doctor gave me CIPRO (two a day). Gosh I hope it works! Perhaps I should get used to this as I've heard that when you are older (I hate to admit it, but this year I'll ge 75) your body cannot throw off the troubles it had when you younger.

You can't. Not really. But RB seems to think he can. Anywho, what I think he means is, if a person, that has come up literally from nothing, succeeds in something that society in general admires, respects, and pays homage to, then one can say that one has "gotten back" at all those folks that looked down on one at first. But RB is still "going over" his accounts, his "life" debits and credits. His Pulitzer Prize and his great writing over the years should have marked those accounts "paid in full" and he should have let them go.

That's one of the benefits of writing a memoir, at least most writers "say" it's a benefit. You can go over all the "stuff" of your life, the good, the bad, and the ugly, tell about it and be done with it. But RB seems to be saying that he's going to keep his bad and ugly, thank you very much. LOL

Ella, as a matter of fact you DON'T come back from illness at 75 as well as you did when you were younger. Be patient, take it easy. Rest.

Love, Howzat

HI HOWZAT!

I'm much better today and know that I will improve steadily now, am over the hump!

I read my last post here and was appalled at the carelessness of it - the spelling, etc. I usually read over my posts for errors, but obviously I didn't yesterday - HEAVENS!

What an interesting post, HOWZAT, and I suspect you are correct in your explanation of RB's "getting even."

We've all heard or read of instances where people have "gotten even" with someone who has done them a disservice - just think of the HATFIELDS AND MCCOYS - one of the biggest examples I can think of. Plays have been written about that feud.

Your statement "RB seems to be saying that he's going to keep his bad and ugly" seems to be true, but I wonder if it is. Does he keep his past in the present for publishing purposes? A topic to write about? It has worked for him - and many others, such as Frank McCourt.

Poverty sells, if you can write it well.

So when RB says "getting even with life" - the word "life" is his life, his past, his people? That is the word that stumped me - life, as if any of us can do anything about it. WE're born, we live, we die - that's life. In between it is up to each to take the opportunities that come along and make the right decisions.

Enough of that philsophizing!

I think most of our participants have flown the coop to other fields, other books.

So let's do this. We'll keep this discussion open for any of those who would like to comment further on Rick Bragg's wonderful book for a few days, and I will monitor it for any additional comments any one cares to bring to our attention.

THE FLOOR IS OPEN AND IS YOURS.

I have written to RB about his mother writing a book of her own. I haven't heard back yet. Yes, I think this discussion is about over. I'm so glad you are feeling better.

Howzat

Well, I just wanted to comment on the final sentence in this book and darn it all, I can't put my hands on the book at the moment. But, if I recall, RB spoke (through the pages of the book) to his father and said something about his father should not have left the family - he should have stayed with them and closed with, "...there would have been room for you."

For some reason those closing words touched me as much as any in the book. They kind of echo around in my head - "there would have been room for you....there would have been room for you..." What is he really saying? Anyone left have anything to say about that?

Ella, so glad you're on the mend. And thank you for a wonderful discussion. What are you reading or leading next?

Diane, Maybe he's saying, I would have loved for you to have been there??? I just looked... that's at the end of the chapter he wrote about or to his dad... I loved that chapter too.

I've been wondering if "It's All Over But the Shoutin'" here!!!! Ella, maybe we were just waiting on a cue from you???

The very last in the book is about RB's sleep walking... and Mama saying "You're OK, little man... you've just been travelin'" Is that his way of saying... This book has been about my travels??

Lou

Hi Ella,

Like everyone else, I am glad you are feeling a little better. As always, I enjoyed you and the posters. I loved the book. Unfortunately, I finished ahead of time. This is not my usual behavior. Usually, I follow the schedule in the heading. Next time I will not forge ahead and find myself lost and alone.

My memory is not good, and I find myself not remembering important points. Anyway, thank you again for being a great discussion leader and sticking with us through health and illness.

Lou, I was moved by Momma's final line to Bragg in the book also. "You're okay little man...you just been travelin'."

There might be another possible interpretation also. All through the book Bragg talks about his sense of displacement....about how running away from himself has become a goal in life.

Yet he recalls that when he was a child and awoke after sleep-walking, disoriented and far from his bed in a strange place, he had a perfect sense of security. He knew someone...his momma... was following him and protecting him. As Momma explained to him, he WASN'T lost. He was just travelin'.

Maybe this is RB's optimistic note for ending his book? He feels the chip on his shoulder getting lighter, he says. No matter how hard he runs and how lost he feels, it's still possible to feel safe in the dark? He's just travelin' a bit?

Just a theory...

Diane, I've been thinking about the line you remembered from the end of the book about RB's father. "There would have been room for you." RB writes that sentence when he sees his mother settled in her new house. He imagines that his father might have enjoyed seeing her in that lovely house. Even as he reminisces about the more loving side of his father, his fury rises and he again wonders how his father could have been so irresponsible as to abandon his destitute wife and children.

The ghosts of past grievances invade Bragg's pleasure in his mother's new perfect house, and I felt he slid between between emotional extremes as he considered the past and what MIGHT have been if his father had been a more responsible man. I wonder if that sentence referred to how Bragg himself felt...or how he believed his Momma felt? Remember, earlier in the book Bragg had claimed that he was forever caught between hatred and forgiveness of his father. How much he must have wished that he had a father that he cared about living in that house also! Lou, I agree with what you suggested as the interpretation.

Diane, perhaps the line that precedes your sentence is the only clarification we get from Bragg. It goes something like this:

"Momma jokes, sometimes, that she gets lost in that big house. There would have been room for you."

Harriet

Ella, thank you for your wonderful discussion. As usual, you did a SUPER job of presenting things for us all to mull over. You are just the best!

Ann, Hats, Lou 2, Diane and anyone else who posted, your comments have been a constant source of pleasure to me. Thank you for giving me so much to think over. Howzat, I don't remember seeing you on the boards before. I really enjoyed your posts. You are wonderful! Hope to see you lots more in future discussions.

I'll be leaving for the weekend Saturday. Everyone, have a great Memorial Day weekend.

Harriet

This is my first ever book discussion. I may never do it again, but I certainly have enjoyed this one.

My father was "footloose" from the time he could walk. His brothers and sisters were all homebody's but he was always curious about what was over the next hill, or around the corner. He was "gone" even when he was home. He day dreamed about where he might be if he wasn't where he was. When he was a child, he hitched rides on freight trains and was gone for days. He was a "travelin' man" as we say down here in Texas, meaning a man that will pick up and go at a moments notice and will be gone till he comes back. He traveled and worked all over the world. In 1972 he came home and promised mother that he wouldn't go away ever again, but I don't think he was really happy again, either. That's probably what RB's mother meant.

Thanks to all of you, and Ella, for the good time I've had.

Howzat

Now, Now Howzat, You have made many friends in this discussion and if I remember right you were in Sea something one time and made a some friends there also. I am a Quite one on here but but have enjoyed your posts so just check out what is offered and make a pick as you have done here and enjoy. I have seen you in many places in Books and there are some Very Good ones coming up so the choice is Yours as I love them all but do Not have time to read them all. Smile, but gleen from You Posters but do chose to read many of the books offered here as to me there is not a better place on the Net to be due to the Posters and the Discussion Leaders.

My First book to be in was When I grow Old I shall Wear Purple or maybe the World War 11 one and Remember being So Gently being told by Joan Pearson where To Post about my Mothers work in WW 11 and have Enjoyed it All since then and that was awhile ago.

Your Father has Sand in his Shoes so to Speak that made his feet itch so he was Foot Loose. Smile, Ginger

I am going to miss these wonderful posts about this little book with the big heart! I too was just bowled over when he said, "there would have been room for you" as it sounds like it comes from a broken heart inside a giant pillow of a man. Brought me to tears as did the comment at the end, "you're okay, little man, you just been travelin". Oh my goodness! I am sure the mother in all of us blinked back tears when we read that line.

Howzat, don't leave us! Come join in another fine discussion here in the B&L site. We have several new ones coming up for June and not to be pushing mine, hahaha, you could grab up "Searching For Hassan" which is another fine non-fiction and also a memoir of an American man who spent ten years of his childhood living in Iran with his family and wants to return to find the Iranian man and his family who took such good care of them and taught them so many things about the Middle East. Do come join us, all of you!

I wrote the poem to "travelin man" in the late 50ies or early 60ies and my musical aunt just loved it and gave it to a niece on her side of the family that was musicial and a singer and had connectons, I did not fight it as they changed it a bit, but the thought was mine as we travelled so much when I was a child. I so enjoyed hearing it and knowing it was popular tho knowing that the thought was mine. My Aunt lived in Denver Co. at the time and I lived with her.

Thanks to Ella and All the Posters here as I Enjoyed it all from your point of view as it does add so much flavor to the books.

Ginger

You ladies are so insightful!! Wonderful comments on those two heart wringing, heart wrenching sentences!!

It has been a great pleasure to be here with you all. Thanks so much to each and every one of you for all your memories, thought and sharing.

Lou

I CAN ONLY SAY THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION, THE PLEASURE OF YOUR COMPANY, AND YOUR KINDNESS TO ME, I APPRECIATE IT SO MUCH. LOVE TO YOU ALL.

P.S. HOWZAT, NOW THAT YOU HAVE JOINED IN STAY WITH US, PLEASE, AND JOIN ANOTHER BOOK DISCUSSION, YOUR POSTS ARE SO ASTUTE, YOU'VE BROUGHT MEANING TO THE PHRASES THAT WERE PERPLEXING AT TIMES. You and I TALKED IN THE NONFICTION FOLDER A FEW TIMES, SO YOU KNOW US ALL NOW!

P.P.S. Hi Ginger, whenever I see you anywhere in the books I will never forget that you told us (even showed us a picture) that you delivered papers when you were young on horseback!.

We will have memories of each other happily for many more years.

Harriet and I will be co-leading the book "LEAP OF FAITH" by Queen Noor in August. It is now on the PROPOSED list so post a message if you are interested. It is Number 1 on the Bestseller List NYT for nonfiction - it's great reading.

In October Harold and I will be doing a lively, readable biography of Benjamin Franklin, such a fellow, all of the ladies loved him!

Join us!

Ella, I'm just tickled that you and Harriet will be leading the "Leap of Faith" discussion. I've had the book on reserve for over a month and am up to about third in line. I'm hoping that will work out just right.

Again, thanks to all - this was so enjoyable. You think if RB writes again we could all get together again?

Then you, Ella, and Harold discussing Benjamin Franklin! Wow - that should be a good one, too. I'd say I can hardly wait but summer does seem to have just arrived and I'd like to enjoy it for a while.

I'm not going anywhere. I'm all over Seniornet, like a fleas on a dog. But, this WAS my first book discussion. Due to a mixup ordering a copy of "The Sea, The Sea" I never did participate in that discussion even though I did sign up for it.

I really appreciate how seniornetters put up with my long windedness. My children and grandchildren, when they ask me a question, always say, "Just give me the short version, please". LOL. It is said that computer writing is really messing with the language because people are in a hurry or condensing to make messages "fit" on palm pilot type devices and cell phone screens or using acronyms instead of words. Well, as you can see, I've not been unduly influenced, yet. (^.^)

Howzat

I get the LAST WORD! hahahaaaaaaaaaa

Note Howzat's simile in her last post.

Ella - oh no you don't - not yet anyway!

I can't resist this piece of trivia but speaking of Howzat's simile, it reminded me of a line in "Life of Pi", recently discussed on SN (neat book if anyone is looking for a good and unusual book to read).

The main character, as a young boy growing up in India was prone to scouting out new religions to study about and join. His father remarked that Pi picked up religions the way a dog picked up fleas.

I remember so few things that when I DO, it's fun to just toss them out.

Howzat - your posts are terrific. It's not how long you take to say it, it's WHAT you say - and you say it well.

I'm heading off now to the discussion starting June l on "The Little Friend" by Tartt. Come on along!

Hi Howzat, I would like to say how much your posts meant to me too. You made me see passages clearly that I would have missed, and you made me laugh. See you soon!!

Rick Bragg is in trouble. I heard on CNN yesterday that he has been accused of writng an article in which he did not give attribution to another writer who "helped" him with the information. Bragg is head of the Atlanta bureau for the New York Times. The Times has plenty on its' plate with the reporter that's been accused of using other people's work and claiming it as his own, now this accusation about Bragg--a Pulitzer Prize winner no less. The Times says it has put Bragg on a two weeks (paid) suspension.

Howzat

For those of you who are interested in the Middle East, we are starting a new book discussion on June 9th about an American family's search for their old friends in Iran. Very well written with sights, sounds,smells,laughter and tears, I think anyone would enjoy this book. Searching For Hassan

Howzat, I saw the blurb on TV also and wondered at the time that if the accusing "stringer" was just trying for notoriety while the NYT is having trouble with that other reporter, Blair?, who reportedly stole others stories on a regular basis.

Personally, I think you're right. However, all will be revealed. Even the New York Times likes a good controversy. LOL

Howzat

Aw geeee - it WAS our Rick Bragg! Whatever will that do to his mother? How COULD he? Do you suppose he'll make another book out of this act of incredible stupidity? On the other hand, I am a firm believer of not criticizing another till after having walked a few miles in his shoes. So we'll wait and see. Darn!

Other than what all of you have said about this affair, the only confirmation I have is a short paragraph in TIME magazine stating the bare facts.

Is there possibly a chance that he did it unintentionally, mistakenly? In the articles you are reading, does it give any other information, such as from whom he stole the material? How much?

Anything else?

Yes, I feel sorry for his mother and for him, also. Let's not judge too hastily until all the facts are known. There is a cartoon in TIME about all the people who have done the same - people well respected in the field: Doris Kearns Goodwin, The late Stephen Ambrose, Clifford Irving, R. Foster Winans, Janet Cooke, Stephen Glass.

FROM THE WASHINGTON POST TODAY -

Month after month, year after year, Rick Bragg said, his mission was to "go get the dateline," even when that meant leaning heavily on the reporting of others.

"My job was to ride the airplane and sleep in the hotel," the New York Times correspondent said yesterday from his New Orleans home. "I have dictated stories from an airport after writing the story out in longhand on the plane that I got from phone interviews and then was applauded by editors for 'working magic.' . . . Those things are common at the paper. Most national correspondents will tell you they rely on stringers and researchers and interns and clerks and news assistants."

But now what he calls a "poisonous atmosphere" has descended on the Times -- one that prompted the paper to suspend Bragg for two weeks for practices he considers utterly routine -- and the Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter says he will quit in the next few weeks.

"Obviously, I'm taking a bullet here," he said of the suspension imposed last week. "Anyone with half a brain can see that." But, he said, "I'm too mad to whine about it."

In the 3 1/2 weeks since reporter Jayson Blair resigned in the face of evidence that he had fabricated and plagiarized at least 36 stories, the Times has been going through a wrenching upheaval, with staffers openly complaining about the management style of Executive Editor Howell Raines. The floodgates have been opened for tips and complaints about other reporters, whose work is suddenly being scrutinized through a post-Blair prism. And Bragg, a Raines favorite whose evocative pieces about hardscrabble Southern life have produced plenty of fans and more than a few detractors, has become a particular target.

Bragg freely admits he did little firsthand reporting for the June 2002 story about Florida oystermen that prompted an editor's note last week. That note said credit should have been shared with freelancer J. Wes Yoder, who was hired by Bragg as a volunteer assistant and spent four days in the town of Apalachicola. "I went and got the dateline," Bragg said. "The reporting was done -- there was no reason to linger."

He recalls one Times editor telling him: "The problem with this, Rick, is that you wrote it too good."

Such Times stringers and interns "should get more credit for what they do," Bragg said, but in "taking feeds" from such assistants, "I have never even thought of whether or not that is proper. Maybe there is something missing in me. . . .

"I will take it from a stringer. I will take it from an intern. I will take it from a news assistant. If a clerk does an interview for me, I will use it. I'm going to send people to sit in for me if I don't have time to be there. It is not unusual to send someone to conduct an interview you don't have time to conduct. It's what we do.

"And this insanity -- this bizarre atmosphere we're moving through as if in a dream -- we're being made to feel ashamed for what was routine. . . . Reporters are being bad-mouthed daily. I hate it. It makes me sick."

Times editors are fully aware of these practices, said Bragg. He recalls asking to take an extra day on a story about a man who was awarded more than $1 million as the never-recognized son of musician Robert Johnson. But since the paper wanted the story immediately, he took two planes to Jackson, Miss., and "only got there by deadline," cobbling a story together literally on the fly.

When a jury convicted Timothy McVeigh in 1997 in the Oklahoma City bombing, Bragg wrote a lead he can still recite by heart: "After the explosion, people learned to write left-handed, to tie just one shoe. They learned to endure the pieces of metal and glass embedded in their flesh." The details, he said, came from "a stack four feet high" of clips from the Oklahoman, Dallas Morning News, Houston Chronicle and other papers.

"From each one of the stories I took a piece of the pain he had caused people," Bragg said. "We backed it up with interviews. That's what we're supposed to do. We gather the string that's out there."

Bragg may feel especially aggrieved because he suffers from a serious form of diabetes which causes circulatory problems in his legs and feet that make it difficult to travel. He intended to leave the paper nearly two years ago after landing a million-dollar two-book contract, but Raines took him by the arm at a party in the editor's native Birmingham and "asked me not to leave." After Bragg argued with his editors over coverage of the Columbia space shuttle disaster, "I called Howell and told him I was done. He said it's stupid to quit over something like this." Again, Bragg agreed to stay.

Some Times staffers say that Bragg's case is extreme and that other correspondents don't rely on the reporting of stringers and assistants to nearly the same extent. But Bragg believes that reporters at the paper "have seen their lives kind of twisted and bent" because of the Blair fallout. He feels especially vulnerable because of his long association with Raines, who was forced to declare at a recent staff meeting that he will not resign.

"Everyone who ever wanted to get even for a slight or unpleasantry or act out their jealousy now has their chance, and it will continue," Bragg said. "What I don't understand is the callousness of some people who would try to use this situation to settle their political squabbles. It is shameful that some people are using it in a power grab at the newspaper. It's just about the saddest thing I've ever seen."

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

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Do you have the same feeling as I do? That we will be getting more books authored by Rick Bragg? Certainly he has run out of relatives; he should write about his experiences in the newspaper world as he is quitting it.

Tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth! And then try to get a publisher, hahaha

Thanks for giving us that post from The Post, Ella. It helps to have RB's side presented. If there are indeed more books forthcoming from RB, it would be great to get together again for more discussion.

This is a common practice among reporters. What are authors, like the gal who wrote "Sea Biscuit", supposed do when an illness prevents them from doing all the reasearch on their book and depend on friends, stringers, researchers, historians--you name them----to help them. Many of those people are only mentioned in the Acknowledgements at the beginning of the book. They don't get paid the royalities on the book. Are they now going to claim those monies? This is ridiculous!

I didn't know that RB had diabetes. Everyday I learn a new fact!

I don't understand how newspapers determine who, among the many researchers, interns and go-fers involved in a story now-a-days, is entitled to a byline. If everyone who had some part in the story got their name attached to it, there wouldn't be much space left over in the New York Times for the actual story itself.

I wouldn't like to be a reporter and be forced to navigate my way through the restrictive deadlines and the use of second hand sources that those deadlines enforce. It seems to me that this confusing system allows for entirely too much subjective opinion by others on what constitutes "borrowing" from the stories of others. Moreover I would think It makes a reporter vulnerable to the competitive malice of others.

Surely, with such a distinctive writing style, Bragg's stories all carry his own inimitable signature within themselves.

I feel very bad for Bragg. He refused to borrow a mortgage on his momma's house because of his fear that the world would snatch his ability to earn money away from him. Unbelievably his beloved NY Times is doing just that... by attacking his reputation. Given his past background, he'll have to be very strong to avoid emotional problems, especially if he is innocent.

I don't pretend to understand all of the ins and outs of his situation, but I don't think that quitting infers guilt. I think that with his present physical health, he is smart to leave and devote himself to writing books.

Ella, it's been a first class discussion with an emotional ending. Thanks to you for your perceptiveness and guiding questions and to all for their wonderful posts.

Harriet