Hi Everyone

Guess I am first to post. I am really excited about this discussion. What say all you NY trippers who of you brave souls are going to join us? This will be a FUN discussion.

Count me in! I've just recently returned this book to the library but will request it again so I can go through it with the group. This will be both fun and nostalgic for me - can't wait.

By the way, do any of you fellow Helene Hanff fans know anything about Patsy, Helene's co-adventurer? Helene only passed away a few years ago and I wonder if there's any possibility that Patsy is still with us and would be interested in joining in. Wild possibility, I know but wow! what a prospect.

WOW Diane what a good idea. I wonder how we would go about finding out. I have a few ideas and maybe we could put all out heads togeather and figure out something.

GREAT IDEA

Oh, Judy - that's great. Go for it!

Look at the start date up above!!! Buuuuut, I can't resist a post!

Unfortunately, Patsy passed away two years after Helene Hanff wrote this book in 1978. She died of breast cancer. What a stalwart friend she was. Bringing the newspaper clips to Helene on their outings and suggesting(insisting) that the author see certain places and comment on them in the book. I felt that Ms Hanff couldn't have written such an interesting book about NYC without her friend, Patsy.

Ann: That is such a good point! I know I never would have loved NYC as much- if it hadn't been for 2 very close frineds of mine. (Cohorts in crime.) The enjoyment of spending the day with someone you love just "touring" around, without care or recognizing anyone is a kick.

ALF, our SN Books&Literature trip to NYC in December of '98 was enhanced for me by having my sister with me. She and I planned our whole itinery before we went and when it overwhelmed us, we threw parts of it away. Also, we had others along who were enjoying it as much as we were and making suggestions about what to see and what to skip. Makes quite a difference.

Boy Ann am I glad you showed up. I was going to go to all kinds of New York sights to see if I could find Patsy. I am very sorry to hear that she has passed away. So far we have Diane, Alf, Ann, and myself. A pretty good start I would say.

Have a great week-end.

What a shame about Patsy. Helene must have outlived her and been so sad.

Guess what I picked up at our library today - "The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street"! I'm loving being back with dear Helene again and will only tell you that, upon meeting Nora (Frank's then widow) for the first time, Nora addressed her as Helen, to which Helene responded that her name was Helene, and Nora said, more or less, "But I've been calling you Helen for 20 years!".

It was interesting at the check-out desk at the library today - one clerk had never heard of HH, the other was as big (or bigger!) a fan than I in that she had read most of the other books. I am so glad that there are still a few to go. And really looking forward to this discussion.

Hi, everyone! Judy, I'm in too...got my book on back order at B&N and hope to have it soon. Just been trying to keep up with all the discussions I'm interested in, that ALL started May 1st! hahaha!

Looking forward to this...

Eddie

Hi Judy! New York, New York that wonderful town! And I ordered my first book from Bibliofind and received it yesterday - a slim little paperback book, and I was expecting the hardcover with pictures! I don't what I expected for $4.50-Haha. Oh well, I'm eagerly anticipating discussing the book with you and all the others!

One of the first books I remembering discussing on Seniornet (after I found this marvelous site!) was 84 Charing Cross Road, and later saw the movie. Both great!

Hi Everyone this is so COOL!!!!!!!! Let me tell you the books I have. Underfoot In Show Bisness The Dutchess of Bloomsbury Street

Q's Legacy

84 Charing Cross Road

Apple Of My Eye

Letters From New York This is a great book. Someone asked her to do 5minutes in NY a radio talk show about her life in NY. It was a BBC Womens Hour broadcast and she agreed to do it for 6months, which by the way turned out to last for six years. I can see her sitting on the porch on the warm evenings. She paints such a picture of living in NY and what goes on in her neighborhood. I have all these pictures in my head. I think we need to read them all. hehehe

Eddie, remember Chicago, Ella remember NY & Chicago???? I have a feeling NY is in our future, what say you??

Judy, there was a porch in NY for HH to sit on? Did we see any porches when we were there? Don't remember any! A few balconies!

Oh, yes, I remember NY and I remember a Judy who is so excited about being there she walks around to all Seniornetters and pounds on their door to get acquainted at 11:30 p.m. when we were sleeping! And has the audacity to say, but it's only 8:30 in Seattle! Hahaha! Wait till next time - Oh, I hope there's a next time and that it is this year! Chicago was not very friendly to us! Putting us out on the street - Bah, Humbug to that city!

Boy Ella AMEN to that. I think we will be back to NY even sooner than we may think.

Well it wasnt really a porch, everyone came out at night when it was nice and sat on the steps and visited. People took their dogs out and children played. I guess I'll never be a HH can't describe things well but I sure can see them in my mind.

I wonder who woke up people in NY??

Hey Judy" We New Yorkers didn't need to be awakened. We were running around motel/hotel rooms too, looking for hte friends that we hadn't yet had a chance to meet.

what story was it recently that spoke about the fracture of the American Family being based on the fact that the American PORCH is now obsolete ?? Give me that porch and I'll make us friends.

Wrap around porches and regular veranda porches are coming back here in a big way, but of course you can't afford a house here nowadays. I think the average home here is 350,000.00 My house and the others like have decks. Thats nice but a just think a porch is nicer.

The true story about waking people up in Ny goes like this. We got in late being from the west coast and when we went to the hotel it was 8:30 our time and 11:30 NY time. The bell boy told us there was a lady in romm 11111 that wanted us to stop and see her. So we were haveing so much fun and he took us up and we knocked softly on this door. Well here sticks Ella's head out night cap and all. hehh Needless to say she didn't want to visit at that particular time. We were embarssed but the guy said, I guess he just didn't say when heh

Hey, Judy, just rambling around Seniornet tonight - I think my Neil Simon discussion is coming to an end and I'll close it up soon. People all finished the book and don't want to wait around to discuss it any further. So on to another one!

I'll tell a story about front porches. Our first house we ever bought had one, most of the neighbors did and I loved to go out there after dinner and sit in the swing and watch the neighbors, some would come over. But - there was this one fellow on the street that liked to talk to Dick and he WAS A TERRIBLE BORE! So when I spotted him coming I would run like the dickens inside and hope he didn't notice me leaving! Those were the days, my friends!

I've read the HH book already as I got the hardback from the Library - the one with all the pictures in it, and I've seen most of all those places. Remember I had been to NYC a few times before the Bookies trip, but am ever so ready to go back with all of them again - anytime! Oh, we had fun!

I've just picked up Letter From New York and, oh, what a treat! Apple seems to be more about places in New York while Letter is about New Yorkers, the people. Both overlap, of course. Whatever will I do when I run out of HH books?

Gee, I wonder if any of her friends from Letters are still around. Arlene, Richard and Nina come to mind - they may be younger, but not really sure. And I love HH's rapport with animals - especially dogs.

By the way, all these HH books on New York plus the Neil Simon books we're reading elsewhere are making for one homesick ex-New Yorker.

Ella I wonder what is the difference between a porch and a deck. There shouldn't be much but some how in my mind a deck is just not the same as a porch.

Diane wasn't that Letters From NY great. I want to go back and sit on those steps and talk to the people. I noticed in NY when I was down in the different neightbors many people with dogs, and very well taken care of and groomed.

When are we going. Everybody keeps saying were going back but I want to know when.

Re: the porch/deck question - I just thought of this. To me a deck is open, no roof, while a porch always has a roof of some sort.

And then there's the question of a veranda vs. deck. What is the difference here except that one sounds fancier than the other? I'm curious because we have this "thing" around most of our house. It is cement and fairly wide and covered by overhang. It's great for sitting and watching the leaves blow and deer go by but what the heck is it? It doesn't seem at all like a porch (maybe because it's at ground level, not raised) and deck doesn't quite work either. We n eed to call it something. But since we use it all the time and refer to it all the time I say, "So what if I exaggerate - I'm going out to sit on the veranda!" (which it clearly isn't but we've joked about our "veranda" for so long it's beginning to work).

One other thing, I think a porch suggests looking out over a lawn and sidewalk and street while a deck would usually overlook a lawn (or beach) on into the distance.

This is fun!

I am in heaven! I just received a hardback copy of "Apple of My Eye" from a used book dealer in Oregon. The pictures are delightful and in part, I reread the book last night. When are we returning, Judy and Ella? Sister Mary is already packed! I think the idea of going yearly to the NYC Book Fair which is in May would be so nice. We would have to get in annual reservations at the Leo and then we would be off on the subway and the busses and walking. Heaven!! Oh, so great! Would Candie return, Judy? And, my brother, another lover of NYC would probably want to join us. He is also a prolific reader. He used to go to NYC on his vacatons but hasn't been there for two years. His eyes just light up when you mention that place.

I like the discussion on the verandas, porches and decks. Although we have had all three, I think the front porch is my favorite. Especially in a neighborhood with sidewalks and people going by that you speak to and ask about their families, their lives. Keeps you in touch with the community without even leaving home. Now, I have a very small front porch and a side screened porch plus a back patio. My neighbor has a larger front porch and sits out there speaking to everyone who passes and yelling at the drivers going by too fast. We call him, "the resident policeman".

I am reading a new book titled, "Turbulent Souls" which is set in NYC. Just started it so will have to wait to comment on the NYC stories later.

OK heres the skinny.

A veranda is a wide covered open gallery or porch used for sitting.

A porch an extior appendage to a building forming a covered approach or vestibule to a doorway, a covered walk or portico.

A deck A platform that serves as a ship's flooring, or a surface similiar to a ships deck.

I have a deck in the back and one off the bedroom and I don't particulary like them. I think I would like a porch so I could keep an eye on the neighborhood.

Boy its almost June 1st. Has everyone got the book?? I have surgery on May 30th but I will be here on June 1st bight and early.

Ella and Judy, what, what, you didn't have a ball in Chicago??? Even with the crazy beginning I just had the BEST time! I only was in NY for the luncheon so barely got to see and talk to everyone.

Kitty O'Shea's?The Historical Society? Studs? the Architectural Tour? the fabulous luncheon? After the Ball? Pleeze!

By the way, ladies, I'm getting a copy of HH's book in a few days so hopefully I'll be joining you in this discussion.

Eileen

Okay, where is everybody? How do you want to start this book, Judy? Just jump in? I haven't enjoyed reading anything about NYC so much. This lady has just laid it all out on how to tour NYC. I have bought three copies of the book and intend to give them to Sister Mary and my brother, Charlie. All you have to do is mention NYC to them and their eyes light up and they start packin' their bags.

Judy, you and some of the group went to the Fraunces. What did you think of it? Did you feel safe going in the evening? How did you get there?

Eileen, I think what sets NYC apart is that it was our first time together as a group of book lovers. I loved Chicago,too, but don't want to be in charge of anything anymore! It wears you out and it takes away from your pleasure. You are always worried about everyone enjoying themselves and in Chicago, I just worried since its beginning was certainly different! Before I left home, I was worried! But, in NYC, I just played and played! And, that Judy had already read this book. Just knew everywhere that she wanted to go and see! I would recommend this book to all who are making a trip there even though its outdated. One of my copies has a P.S. section in the back where HH updates most of the stuff to 1988. Its my prize copy. Well, I have the HB too. Can't decide which one to give away! Maybe, I will order another copy from Bibliofind!

This is SO great and Judy is SO excited and worried about this discussion I bet she's read Ann's post 1000 times. I talked to her by phone yesterday and she's having a bit more problems than she expected as a result of her hand surgery on Tuesday (it's her right hand) and it's , what with the meds, difficult for her to pick out with her left hand so she would like to start the discussion, if it's OK with everybody, on on JUNE 5 and hopes everybody will join her here, it's her first Books discussion and she really wants it to go well!

So feel free to talk now or grab the book and rejoin us on the 5th~

ginny

DRAT!! DAMN! DOGGONE IT! My library doesn't have this one. I'll have to do some financial fanangling (sp?)

Ann, and you did a fantastic job too! BUT, I can definitely see trying to keep everybody happy would be a worrisome job. I can't compare NY with Chi because I was only there for the one day. I still think the Chicago luncheon was a BALL! Even my darling DIL, Donna, didn't expect to have such a great time!

Ginny, good, June 5, I haven't got the book yet - I ordered it a few days ago and they said it take probably a week.

Eileen

Stupid fingers Ella. Its something called trigger finger and they go out of joint everytime you move them and nothing can be done but surgery. Had left thumb and little finger done last year and now it was right thumb this time. Very painful but not a biggie operation. Had the bandages off today and stitches come out next thursday. They cut like at the base of the finger and make the tendon or some such thing longer. Enough of that. I will be ready on the fifth, it seems to be working out better for everyone. I think this is going to be fun. Would like some inut from you about how to go about it. It really doesn't have chapters, what should we do?? I really feel much better today and not so grogy probably didn't make much sense when I talked to Ginny yesterday. hehe

You have trigger fingers? You're not the cowboy type at all, what are you trying to pull here? Hahahaaa

Never heard of such a thing, Judy, is it a genetic-type thing? Are your children trigger-free?

Oh, gosh, I have this book sitting on my coffee table and have been leafing through it during the commercials, looking at pictures (the library copy). Do you want to put up a schedule? Just divide the book into 3-4 sections and put the page numbers up there at the top. And then we'll see how that goes.

It's difficult to slow people down, though, as this is a slim book and easy to read, so perhaps you'll want to just put some questions about the book, author, NYC, blah, blah up there in the header?

Whichever way you do it, or no way at all, we'll enjoy discussing it - she's a chatty person isn't she? Would love to run around the city behind her, wouldn't you? Or does she make you tired?

When I first came to Seniornet Books, folks here were just finishing up HH's book - oh, gosh, the title just flew out of my mind. But you know the one I mean - later, I saw the movie with Anthony Hopkins, love that man!

That was "84 Charing Cross Road", Ella. I am thinking of reading the book as it has always been a favorite movie of mine. Have seen it three times or more. Anne Bancroft was in it too.

Judy, you could just get a gun and protect yourself at all times as you already have the appropiate fingers! I love Ella's questions. Are your children trigger free? What a great line! The woman is a stitch!

I took a picture of where 84 Charing Cross Road should have been. It was just gone.. the numbers went from 82 to 86... How disappointing. But I did find the book in a used book store.

Ann don't encourage Ella it will just make her worse. heheh Busy day today. I will be back to post tommorow for Monday June 5th because I am so far behind you guys you will think I'm not there hehe

My husband says you probably really have "mouse fingers"! Heh,heh,heh!

All right, fun's over and time to get into some serious stuff here, Judy! I want you ready to answer some questions like where did NYC get the title "The Big Apple?" Why not the Big Cheese, the Big Nut, or the Big Rhubarb? And who was the Mayor at the time it was given that nickname? Did he approve, did he have to? And what does everyone think of Guiliani stepping out of the race? Did you like him?

Judy, that should keep you busy and stop you from making disparaging (don't you love people that use words like that?) remarks about me!

Pat W - gee, fun to see you here and so glad you recovered from your big bad bug! Someone is missing the boat over there in the Mother Country but not putting in a bookstore at 84 Charing Cross Road! Is it a neighborhood where it might succeed?

This will be a fun discussion and I need one - I've got a bad cold and coughing that starts shaking my knees and moves on up rattling everything slowly until it explodes through my nose, mouth and eyes! Pat - perhaps that bug was carried over the Atlantic by the wind or something??? I hope I survive it and get well fast as I plan on going to Toledo come June 17th.

Good Grief, is everyone going to get that flu? You know, Ella, Ralph had it when we went to the wedding in Indianapolis last week. It takes a while to get over as it makes you very tired. Tell Dick to sleep in the workshop if he doesn't want to get it. Its awful! Takes lots of C and your vitamins and tell to do the same. I hope you weren't breathing your germs on me at the High Tea! Maybe, Ginny and Pat and Ginger are infecting the US.

I know who was mayor-and why its called the big apple but I will have to look it up for specifics. Its in the part of my brain that's taking a nap right now. Be back later!

Here is the reason for the Big Apple title for NYC. "Why Big Apple?

There are several schools of thought on this one and probably more than one correct answer. Back in the 1920s, stableboys used to call the New Orleans race track, The Big Apple.

Traveling jazz musicians used the name to refer to Harlem, which was the jazz capital of the world at that time. And in the 1920s and '30s, "The Big Apple" dance was considered to be really groovy in the nightclubs of Harlem.

In 1924, journalist, John Fitzgerald, was the first to call the City "The Big Apple", referring to the city as a whole, in his Morning Telegraph horse-racing column and in the early 1970s, a publicity campaign promoting the tourist industry brought the name back into common usage.

Finally, in the summer of 1999, BBC reporter, Tony O'Rourke, started this website and the rest is history...

WELCOME

This gets posted tonight as West Coast time is so much later then East and I want you all to get a good start.

My only concern is do we want to read by dates or maybe 1/3 at a time or just go for the whole thing? There are no chapters but each area she goes to is accompained by a picture.

I have said before that this book made my trip to NY the best of my life I could see the things she described and I would think this book was written in 1977. Will the things still be there. They were and it was wonderful.

As you will see in the first part they find Fraunces Tavern where is was said that George Washington said good bye to his troops. So our Ginny wanted to know what I wanted to do the first day we were in NY beings we got there early. We went to the Circle tours and had a ride around the harbor and saw the statue of liberty all of NY, Wall street all from the water. Then we divided up and all got cabs and we to Fraunces tavern. It was magic, just like she said. After dinner we walked over to the waterfront and went shopping in a mall on a pier. No Ann I was never afraid or even concerned walking at night in NY and we walked every night.

I think we are going to have to be careful not to make this Apple of My Eye discussion a trip down memory lane for our trip to NY. Supposed to be about the book I keep telling myself.

Something to think about. If the editor of your newspaper called you and asked you to write a discription of all the scenic places and historic places in your town, to accompany pictures that had been taken for a book to be published down the line, how many have you been too???

I was past 60 years old before I ever went to Mt Rainier. Have you seen all the places of interest in your area?

Ella I hope you are feeling better soon. I wonder if meaness comes out in the form of a bad cold???? hehe just kidding.

Welcome to Diane, Ann, Alf, Eddie, Ella, Eileen, Ginny, Pat W and whoever else would like to join us in our discussion of Apple Of My Eye

Question: Why is New York City called the Big Apple?

Answer:

The phrase "The Big Apple" referring to New York City was first used in 1909 by Martin Wayfarer. In a metaphor explaining the sentiment in the Midwest that the city receives more than a fair share of the nation’s wealth, he explains: " ‘New York [was] merely one of the fruits of that great tree whose roots go down in the Mississippi Valley, and whose branches spread from one ocean to the other…[But] the big apple [New York] gets a disproportionate share of the national sap.’ " (Irving Lewis Allen, City in Slang [Oxford University Press, 1995], p. 62)

"The Big Apple" took on a different connotation when it was made popular in the 1920’s by the New York Morning Telegraph sports writer John J. FitzGerald. He heard it used by African-American stable hands at the racetrack in New Orleans when referring to New York’s racing scene which they considered the "big time." FitzGerald liked the phrase so much he titled his racing column "Around the Big Apple." In the introduction to his column from the February 18, 1924 issue FitzGerald writes: "The Big Apple. The dream of every lad that ever threw a leg over a thoroughbred and the goal of all horsemen. There’s only one Big Apple. That’s New York."

The phrase was most widely used by jazz musicians during the 1930’s and 40’s. Again it was used as a metaphor for achieving success. Playing New York, in particular the theaters of Harlem and on Broadway, was the ultimate aspiration. When playing away from home, they were out in the branches ("the sticks") but when they were in New York they were playing "The Big Apple."

The phrase fell out of favor during the 50’s and 60’s but was revived in the 1970’s by the New York Convention and Visitor’s Bureau’s campaign to attract tourists to the city. Using a red apple as their symbol, they promoted New York as the Big Apple, and it is now an internationally known nickname.

In 1997, with the help of Big Apple advocate Barry Popik, the City Council acknowledged John J. FitzGerald’s contribution to New York City lore by naming the southwest corner of W. 54th Street and Broadway in Manhattan, the corner where FitzGerald lived from 1934 to 1963, "Big Apple Corner." A plaque was placed on the building by the Historic Landmarks Preservation Center to commemorate him.

Copyright 1999 Museum of the City of New York

It has been several years since I was in NYC, and I'm sure our discussion will surely contain references to our experiences.

Judy: ... So start remembering and tell us what you saw and liked best.

Was my answer not long enough, Ms Judy? Now, what else should we be looking for in this book? The love of the city that she portrays is wonderful. I think we could just go by the chapters and do one every three days. When reading this, I would remember most of these places and when the ones that I didn't see came up, I put them on my list for visiting next time.

Our local symphony orchestra is celebrating their 50th year in existence and are playing in Carnegie Hall on April 18th. Should we go, Ella? Sounds good to me.

One every three days sounds good to me Ann. Actually as my grandson would say. I read Ellas giving me the big quiz and went and found the answer and put it up and did not see your post at all til I came back later. Maybe we were posting at the same time.

See you all this afternoon when I get back from work.

While sitting here waiting for the doctor to call (after being up all night), I'll just acknowledge all your great research, Ann and Judy! My curiousity knows no bounds and I've stared at that apple long enough that I needed to know (sounds like that awful commercial "I need to know that you'll take care of----")

While reading I should be making notes as to where I haven't been and want to go next time - Sure, Ann, let's just hop on a plane and go off to Carnegie Hall and I missed Lincoln Center - and on and on.

Did you watch the Tony Awards last night - there was this British fellow and I can't remember what show he was in, but he said he loved America and to him that meant New York and that meant Broadway! Well!

From "the sticks" - where life is boring and all we do is think of mean things to say! Hahahaha - Ella

It was suggested that we list famous places in our vicinity that we have or haven't visited. I live near Boston and we are awash with "historic" sites and no, I haven't seen all of them. (:

I haven't got my book yet, hmmmm!

Eileen

NOW what do I do? I've finished Apple and returned it to the library. I loved it so much I checked out Letter from New York (if you like Apple, you'll LOVE Letter) and then was so delighted to find Duchess of Bloomsbury Street which I also loved, and now I have Q's Legacy which I've just begun and am so happy to be back in HH's exquisite company again. But, I don't want to miss this discussion and can see already that I can't do it from memory.

The blessed library just dug up Flu for me (subject of another SN discussion coming up) along with Andrew Weil's latest - Eating for Optimum Health.

This is just ecstacy and I will find a way to do it all.

The recent discovery that I have shingles has slowed me down only a tad.

Onward with Apple!

Where is everybody.????????/

I need some help here you guys.

Ella I expected at least a atta boy about finding the answer to your question. Big deal for me. I even cutted and pasted hehehe

I think HH was right, the only way to see NY is to walk or ride the but preferably a double decker on top. I can see missing the trail at the Cloisters. Remember the walk from the Fort Tyron cafe to the museum that was a great day. On my list for next time is the Sunday walk that she and Patsy planned, can anyone tell me the places they planed to go all on one Sunday.??

My husband has been diagnosed with basal cell carcanoma and will have surgery next Thursday. So I am going to need a little help in here as he will be home for a month and I can't think of any place to go for a month so it should be interesting hehehe I have always said if he retired I would get a full time job, but not this time.

Do any of you know of a resturant in the world trade center beside the fancy one on top???

Judy, sorry to hear about your husband's surgery, good wishes and prayers go with you both on Thursday.

I can't comment yet - the bookstore hasn't called me yet!!!! grrrr

Eileen

Judy. You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

Ginger

Oh, Judy, am sorry about your husband, and have been meaning to come back in - am on the darndest schedule you've ever heard of. I can't sleep at night because of coughing, it is the meanest cough - it seems to have a mind of its own because when I want to sleep, it is just waking up. So I'm napping off and on in the daytime sitting up and in between meals and errands and the beat goes on......certainly hope the meds kick in soon! Do let us know about your husband.

Oh, I have loads to say about HH and her book - you know, it makes me feel very good, downright brilliant, when I read that she and her friend, lifelong NYorkers get lost - Hahaha. I've done that lots of times - it's very easy to do!!! They got lost in the very first chapter trying to find the Fraunces Tavern, didn't they?

Judy - you must tell us about your dinner there? I've not been there at all and want to know if I should go next time I'm in NYC? Last time our group was there we walked around Battery Park and found it depressing - understand it was December, but it looked old, dirty and as if it needed big equipment to come in, turn over all the old trampled dirty soil, thin a few trees, new bushes, something. I don't mind OLD, I love OLD, but dirty and old don't go together!

Loved FDR's comment: (pg 23) - "My fellow immigrants." Didn't know he said that, wonderful isn't it? Reminded me that once my husband, who doesn't know a stranger, just talks to everyone he meets, once turned to a fellow he was sitting beside in an auditorium and engaged him in conversation - noticing he was dark complected Dick asked him what country he was from (Oh, boy!), and the fellow said I'm an American, what are you? It embarrassed my husband, and rightly so! The fellow looked as though his origin might have been from the country of India, but we are all from another country aren't we?

Never heard of that Kosky-Osko bridge or Koshoosko, the builder of West Point, but then I could have died without that knowledge and wouldn't have cared. But everyone should go see Ellis Island when they are in NYC - it wasn't a museum when HH wrote this book - deserted and falling down (it was that way also on my first trip in the '80s), and I was so happy that it is now a wonderful museum and I have an idea they removed a lot of the stuff from the Statue of Liberty over to there. We'll have to check Miss Liberty out next time we are there. She was being cleaned one visit and had scaffolding up so we didn't get off the boat, but have loads of pictures of her (why? she doesn't change over the years) but we seem to need to take more pictures everytime I see her and, of course, I get all choked up thinking about those poor immigrants coming here - and the soldiers returning home and seeing her).

Hey, we used to have "Chock-Full o'Nuts" in Columbus, too. I think! Isn't that the places where the big peanut man was on a sign outside? Loved those places, they are all gone from our downtown, as is all the little sweet shops! Darn modern times! But it's all there in NYC and all like it used to be in every little downtown in America, the Mom and Pop delis with 4-6 stools, the vegetable stands, the small hotels and I love it!!

JUDY - are you sure you want me to continue? That was just Chapter One and I could go on like that for hours!!!

Judy, please add my thoughts and prayers for your husband's upcoming surgery - and recovery. My husband has had several of those removed and we've both survived. The worst part, depending on where the thing is located, is keeping the site dry for the first few days while trying to shower the rest of the body. Plastic bags and/or Saran wrap help.

Ella, re: the peanut man, aren't you thinking of the Plantar's Peanut Man? They used to have little shops where they sold mainly peanuts but I think other kinds, too.This was during my , ahem, youth, back in the 50's, but I somehow think they're not there anymore. In Jr. High a bunch of us formed the "Peanut Club", made a trip into the city and were either given, or bought, little plastic peanuts to wear on chains around the neck. I have no idea now what the club was all about but it was fun to wear the little peanuts. In retrospect, of course, it was unkind to those not in the club. It's so easy to be unkind without meaning to, isn't it?

Judy, good luck to your husband and we will pray that you two live through your "enforced togetherness".

Ella, sounds like I won't be calling you soon. I don't want to wake you up from your naps!

I think the "Chock Full O' Nuts" shops were mainly in NYC. I don't remember them being here. There is nothing like the little neighborhoods in NYC and also in Chicago. Some stores have been there for many generations of the same families. We snacked at "Chock Full O' Nuts" when we were in NYC in 1978 and drove through Chinatown. Probably saw One Wui Plaza and Confuscous Plaza. I know we ate a meal in one of the Chinese restaurants.

I agree with Ella that Battery Park left me cold. Freezing! And, my grandson warned me not to go there. Too many street people, Grandma! How did he think I was going to get to Ellis Island? I wonder if HH got to see the NEW Ellis Island. The tour takes a day. If you read all the info at each case. Fascinating stuff! I was amazed at the many things that people still had in their possession from way back there in the 1890's. So many suitcases, dresses, old country remembrances. They certainly carried some strange stuff on those ships, like crockery and pots and pans and pictures.

And, talk about getting lost! Mary and I became separated from Ella and Cindy in the museum and we thought they had returned to the Leo, so we did, too. After finding our relatives on the wall and eating. Watched the sun go down while riding the ferry back to Battery Park. Fun day! Wish I had known about the memorial stones in the park before we went. See, we need to go back! I have put two entries into the contest for winning a trip for two to hear the Columbus Symphony play at Carnegie Hall on April 18 and I intend to win!

Thanks Ella and Diane I am sure he will be fine. Diane Ella is right in New York it was Chock Full Of Nuts. HH talks about it and the great coffee they serve in the first part of the book.

Ella you are marvelous. Keep it up. Fraunces Tavern was great and I would definately go back there again. I did not see much of the area as it was night time when we got there and it was night when we walked over to the pier. It was our first official dinner in NY and we were so excited. I believe Ginny had bad table manners or something but the memory isn't too clear maybe I can find someone who remembers. What do you thing of HH opinion of the Museums and of the cloisters?

You mean there weren't two separate places - one being Chock Full O'Nuts (which I also remember) AND the Planter's Peanuts places? Thought for sure they were not the same. But I was young and foolish then and probably don't remember accurately. Hmmmm.

OK, back to the museums and cloisters. I have to re-check out the book to catch up with this conversation.

Diane - I think you are right, I must have been thinking of Planters Peanuts with that peanut man in his top hat. I've never been to NYC's Chock Full o'Nuts - if they are still there, we must go in and get some coffee next time. THERE WILL BE A NEXT TIME - but if Ginny doesn't straighten up and learn table manners (hahaha), we'll just let her sit alone!! Right?

Hi Ann - Oh, golly, did we ever have a day at Ellis Island, beautiful place, and you must rent the ear phones and listen to Tom Brokaw take you through the place and describe it all in detail. Forget the gift shop!

Now as to Chapter Two - and the Cloisters - and the Rockefellers - is there something in NYC that isn't somehow attached to the Rockefeller family in some way? We've been there, done that, haven't we? And we ate before we went to the Cloisters, a bit smarter than HH and Patsy, weren't we? And we have to brag and boast just a bit about meeting, dining with, listening to, being guided by, the famous former director of MOMA, and author THOMAS HOVING! (That name should bring Ginny running here to comment, shouldn't it?)

We just MUST - it's a MUST - get a ticket for the Culture Bus, did any of you know there was such a vehicle? You can ride all day, getting on and off wherever you wish, and it just keeps running around the city after you and it sounds like a winner - hope they still have them.

Now I knew a little about that mixup of the Avenue of the Americas and Sixth Avenue and if I were a New Yorker I would insist on voting on that issue and getting Sixth Avenue back, wouldn't you? There's just no need to confuse tourists like that when NYC is such a marvelous grid and easy to get around in, unlike Washington, D.C. and others!

And we must go shopping uptown on Madison Avenue, at least, window shopping - I've never done that! We walked into Saks Fifth Avenue, up one aisle and down the other, and out, just so we could say Oh, of course, we shopped at Saks! But I did buy dish towels at Macy's and they are wonderful quality, still use them, would recommend them highly! I'm cheap and I'll admit it!

B&N just emailed me that my book has been shipped.. I'll catch up..

Judy ... Sorry to hear about your husband... When mine gets sick, my world comes to halt while I play "gopher".. Just don't give him a bell to ring when he wants you.

Thats not my problem Pat I wish it was. He won't let me do anything for him and if I have to it won't be a pretty sight. He's one of the old school macho I can do it myself and I don't need any help. I told him I had a trip planned ( which he knew) for the following week and asked if I should cancel it. He said what for?? I don't need any help. So there you have it.

I am sure everything will come out fine. If I did't have something to worry about I'd be worrried about not having something to worry about.

Judy, we'll all be thinking about you and Don, and certainly hoping for the best. What help do you want with this discussion? It seems to be going on splendidly?

ginny

Does any one remember that song - "I'll take Manhattan, the Bronx and Staten Island too, and then we'll wander through the zoo" - I tried to find a midi of it, but perhaps it's just too old? And I don't remember any more of the words - does anyone?

I thought of that song when at the end of the one of the chapters it gave all the statistic of the boroughs. That isn't in the paperback book, just in the hardback copy.

I have no idea what chapter we are on as they are not numbered, just dated and I read one this morning that talked about the OTB parlors (off-track betting) - do you suppose they still have those? They are no worse, in my opinion, that all these sites here in Ohio that sell lottery tickets which my husband complains about all the time - just a legal gambling scheme and he thinks it should be outlawed for all government agencies to encourage gambling of any kind, and I agree! Think of those who suffer from gambling disorders/disease - whatever - like Art Schlicter or that baseball player from the Cincinnati team (uh, oh) can't think of his name - somebody??????

It's an unwritten law in NYC that you must take either the subway or bus around in order to get the full flavor of the city - as HH and Patsy do. No taxi rides, you don't see people there! Although my daughter and I got into a bit of trouble with that law, but it's a long story!

Interesting how Wall Street got its name! No way do I have the courage to go up into the World Trade Center Towers - those observation decks - and look down, don't do that in my own city. Never yet have I found the courage to take one of those outside elevators that crawl up the wall either - we have one of those! How's about the rest of you?

Judy, you haven't thoroughly described that Fraunces Tavern - the room you ate in - was it elegant, linen tablecloths, history on the walls? Or were you talking too much to take it in?

I'd like to hear Ginnys description of Fraunces Tavern. I was so awed by NY altogeather that I'm not sure what I saw. It was just to great. I also would love to know all the names of the people that were there i just can't seem to remember these days.

What I do remeber you went up steps and inside was a room kind of like a living room. It had chairs to sit in and a fireplace. They then took us through the bar which was packed and many people standing. Our room was kind of large with big tables. There was at least 10 of us. We had the lovely linen tables clothes and silver. The deco was all early American and of course all old historical things. The food was wonderful, but then of course there was Ginny. I believe hogging all the bread, but then we didn't care. On the way out we saw other rooms, so apparently it is broken up in a series of small dinning rooms. There is an upstairs which has a museum but we didn't get to go there because it was closed. Also it was close to Christmas and everything just sparkeled. I am going to try to get Ginny to describe the resturant now. I think that would be fun just to see how bad I screwed it up.

Ella what did you think about HH opinion of the museums and tearing down part of her very own much loved Central Park??

Well that is just exactly so, just the way it was except for the bread hogging, but that WAS good bread. They are working right now on the NYC Photo Retrospective, and the photo of the group is there so we can remember it together.

I had heard about this Fraunces Tavern from Judy who of course was all over it, historic, Helene Hanff, etc., and I thought, oh bleah, because that type of thing doesn't really appeal to me, but off we want, horrific cab ride, half of us left out on the street because, as our cabbie confided, "I don't pick up drunks." Not sure which of our pitiful windswept group he thought was in that condition, but he wouldn't listen to us.

Out of the cab we got, people on the streets milling around, people in line, I thought Uh oh, up stairs, and into this huge old house, historic, with small rooms, reception room full of old fireplace, very nicely decorated, then off into one of what seemed a million small rooms, our own private room!! Very exciting, we took the whole room up, full of plates on wall, fireplace, reminds you of "George Washington slept here" kinds of places, colonial decor and furnishings, very nice waiter who kept insisting that everything was 5 mintues away from Fraunces Tavern, just five minutes.

Here's the Group at Fraunces Tavern, sorry for the small pix, this was a huge long table they had made for us and it was a room all to ourselves, and here's the Five Minute Man .

The food was fabulous and apparently it IS near the Pier and the amusements because Judy, in her fashion, struck out in the dark, cooler heads took a cab back, the place was packed and is obviously The place to be, I recommend it highly, ESPECIALLY the bread.

ginny

Yes Yes Ella history on the walls. All very dark with dark wood panneling and dark colors. Very George Washington colors.

HH didn't much care for the Metropolitan did she? Wait I'll find it and put it here -

The Metropolitan Museum of Art is one of the world's great museums. It is also a sprawling, ugly pile of gray stone, which you won't realize when you go there because you'll enter through the front doors on Fifth Avenue and the museum's Fifth Avenue facade is impressive....... all of its acres were torn out of Central Park, which does not belong to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, it belongs to me. Me and a million other New Yorkers for whom life in New York would be unthinkable without it.......Will you tell me why, in this skyscraper city, a three-story museum can't built up? Why does it always have to build on the ground, destroying more and more of Central Park?

She has a point doesn't she?

Judy - click on the New York folder - down there where all the trips are located - and you'll see who all was there I think. We all went on separate trips which I liked and then met for lunch and occasionally for breakfast. When you're in that city, particularly, you should just go to those places that interest you the most, don't you think? Instead of everyone trouping along together?

Years ago, Cindy and I walked through the MOMA - or parts thereof - it's huge, you get lost, and the only thing I remember seeing is the Egyptian room that has all those wonderful things that the U.S. bought to preserve them from the Aswan Dam. Truly remarkable things. They are all in a room together and besides, they had benches there to sit and rest awhile!!!! I needed that. I think we ate at a cafe there also.

Ginny could we list the names.??

There was Candi Scudero

Janet Sue Collins

Laurel Tomchick

Judy Laird

Ginny Anderson

Sandy ??

Was her name Ella? I don't think thats right and her DIL from Canada and I forget the other two ladies names. They went on the boat ride. Do you think I am getting Altzheimers. ???

Thanks Ella we must have been posting at the same time. To tell you the truth and I hate to say it in the company of such illustious people as we have here. Museums are not my first pick when I go to a new city. I love the neighborhoods. I spent a lot of time in Greenich Village, SoHo, Little Italy, I talked to so many people and learned how they live and what they do, Candi and I went to some bakeries and coffee shops that would make you cry they were so good. I went down little street with brownstone walkups and was thrilled. We also walked down a very narrow street where there was a school and during recess they just put out saw horses and the kids played right in the street and the cars just went around. Only I would assume in NY. We even were so off the wall that we went to a flea market about 3 blocks from the hotel.

We walked down there on Sat morning on our way downtown and Candi bought an antique sewing maching that weighed about 50lbs and we had to deal with getting that home. Wouldn't have missed it for the world.

Also ran in Ann and her sister down in a shopping area off the wall some place. I saw Ann out of the corner or my eye, this was kind of on the street type markets so I walked up beside her and poked he and she nearly jumped all the way downtown. More fun more memories.

Yes, Judy, you saw NYC the way we all should have been seeing it. The flavor of the city neighborhoods. I remember when I was in grade school that they blocked off the streets for us to use during recess. And, my big city was Indianapolis.

But, being sure not to miss some of the touristy places, Mary and I were in the Met and I had read all about the building of the extensions in "Making the Mummies Dance" by Tom Hoving. I don't know! I think I disagree with HH about the necessary growth of the Met. They have such a huge collection and want to share it with the public. Tom Hoving did a super job of getting that extension built and when we were touring the place, we had to see the "Temple of Dendur" and its environs. There were a young mother and child sitting on the floor, drawing the temple. And, they weren't the only ones. I liked the museum because it was so accessable. We had dinner at the Met with Joan Grimes and her cousin and the restaurant had a live string quartet playing. It was delightful!

Even when we went out Ellis Island, there were street performers down by the ticket kiosk. And all kinds of souveniers available. I wish we had known about the Fish Market as we would have had dinner there. Weren't we lucky that the weather was not bad in spite of the time of the year?

Ginny posted in the Library that HH died alone and penniless in a nursing home - isn't that sad! Where was Patsy anyway? They seemed to have been such good friends. She was the one who graduated from Harvard and I think HH had not had a college education - as if that makes any difference! Intelligence has nothing to do with education, don't you agree?

I'm reading a book about Ted Turner and even though his IQ was higher than John F. Kennedy's (imagine people looking up such stuff!)he didn't get into Harvard, no doubt because his father was not wealthy or influential. He went to Brown where he boozed, played cards, chased the women, had a good time (in male fashion) and learned nil. Finally was thrown out - that's education and the kind many of our notable, illustrious (your word, Judy, not mine) leaders and millionaires have received.

Ann fish market? What fish market???? Have I missed it altogheather is it like a public market??

Yes Ella she died alone and penniless, if we had been more organzed in those days we could have found out and definatley made a difference, I for one would have been there like a shot and I am sure Ginny would have been right behind me, or maybe in front of me. I still often think of it and feel so bad she was all alone.

Do you remember our walk from the cafe to the cloisters. Wasn't that fun? I can understand how they could get lost on the lower road. But just the enjoyment of being there I wouldn't care if I was lost.

I will be back later I must go to work now and then drive a lady to the doctor at 1:00. Its pouring rain and I hate to go out in it but its not going away. Been raining for 8 days.

About our HH dying alone and penniless, it sure makes me angry, too. But I hope she's getting a good chuckle now, seeing all the friends she didn't even know she had.

Re: Patsy, didn't someone find out for us that she died of breast cancer, way ahead of HH. But then, for those of you who have read Letter from New York (and if you haven't, you will!), what about her wealthy and successful friend Arlene? Also Rich and Nita?

I've re-requested Apple from our library system (not at our own branch, unfortunately - the closest copy is almost 100 miles away - ahh, again, the wonders of the internet - I can see my "hold" and I can also see that no one has pulled it yet. Interesting) and will jump into the discussion when it arrives.

Oh, good, Diane, we are waiting for a few others who are coming to discuss this delightful book. I've never read the Letter from New York, but I must, you say?

The only other HH book I've read was 84 Charing Cross Road. Did she ever marry? What actually do we know about her other than the books she wrote? How old was she then and when she died? Did she receive any money from the movie made - that wasn't so long ago it seems to me; was she alive then?

Judy - do you know any answers to my questions?

Ann - I don't remember a fish market mentioned in the book either. Where is this market? No doubt down by the waterfront, right?

I'll read another chapter today and be back! We don't want to get too far ahead as EM and Diane are waiting on their books.

Diane - do you know NYC well? I think you were in the Neil Simon discussion where we talked a lot about the city, but I can't remember each person's experience.

Oh Ella, yes, you must, no question, read Letter from New York. The best way I can describe it is that Apple is mainly about the places in New York and Letter is mostly about the people of New York - but places, too. Equally delightful. Maybe more so.

I grew up about an hour north of the city and as a result, I thought all little kids got to see the Statue of Liberty, Empire State Building, etc. for field trips. Boy, little did I know! When I got a little older and could take the train in with a few pals and go shopping, go to Broadway plays, and so many other things, I started to realize that this was a special place. After college I lived in Greenwich Village for a year. In fact, I lived on Gay Street and that was back when "gay" meant gay - nothing else. But then in 1959 I fulfilled my dream of moving to California. It was an extremely difficult decision..."The Road Not Taken" does come to mind from time to time - as it does to us all.

I went back to NY on a brief business trip in 1985 (the only time since leaving) and it was an absolute delight to find so much of the atmosphere as I remembered it. Except for the Village where I no longer felt safe. But oh, I walked from Macy's at 34th all the way up Fifth to Rockefeller Center (a much longer walk than I would have ever considered in any other city) and felt young again! New Yorkers walk, all over the place, and think nothing of it. And I took a side trip over to Grand Central which, to me, is a magical sort of place and I was really ticked off that HH gave it such short thrift. So many memories in that majestic building. I rode subways and hated the grafitti all over them but I think that's been resolved now.

I have to tell you one terrific memory from that trip. My employer put me up (thank you, thank you!) at the Hilton where, from one of the upper floors and a corner room, I had an outstanding view of Central Park, the Hudson River, various penthouse and roof gardens, and finally the streets way, WAY below. One morning on the way out of my room, I stopped for one more glimpse of the city from my elevated view. As I scanned, lo and behold it started to rain. Automatically I looked down to the streets and sidewalks and what did I see but an absolute garden of lovely opening flowers - multi-colored umbrellas literally blossoming down in the streets below. I wish you all could have been there.

OH my, I've enjoyed this. Thanks for listening. And thanks for asking, Ella.

P.S. My book is in transit - should have it by the weekend.

Ella I can't believe you haven't read Letters From NY, I just assumed you had read them all. Letters as Diane says gives you the feeling of the neighborhood. You must get them all, they are wonderful.

Another one is Underfoot In Show Business. Great read. I answered your question about how NY came to be called the Big Apple. I guess I am going to have to go back and find out if there are more. This comes from trying to do too many things at once I think.

Okay, Judy, I mispoke when I called it the Fish Market. Its the South Street Seaport which is a mall of shops and restaurants.

I have the "Apple" that was published in 1988 in what HH refers to as the "P.S." addition. Here I quote: Normally, NYC would not have been in crucial need of more shops and restaurants than it already had. But its waterfront maill, known as the South Street Seaport, was created at a moment when there was a dramatic change in the surrounding area of Lower Manhattan. There had always been a scattering of small neighborhoods down at the tip of the island, most of them poor and working-class. But in the 1980's, two new neighborhoods were added, both upper-income and Yuppie. The first and smaller was TriBeCa(a TRiangle of streets BElowCAnal Street) where old housing underwent "gentrification" and new luxury housing was added. The second was a monster complex of 40-story apartment towers mixed with a few low condonminiums, all built on Hudson River landfill at the edge of Battery Park and named Battery Park City. Its astronomically expensive co-ops, condos and rental apartments are 90% occupied, with more buildings going up, each sold or rented as fast as it rises. I have no idea how many thousands of people it will eventually house but it has already doubled the popultion of Lower Manhattan, if you throw in TriBeCa.

The new residents of the neighborhood are c hiefly Yuppies who work in the Wall Street financial district. Relieved of their long subway rides and commutation tickets, they can not only walk to or jog to work, they can now dine well and dress well without making long trips uptown, thanks to the South Street Seaport's shops and restaurants -- spend lunch hours, cocktail hours and long summer evenings in the Seaports's large open square.

To uptown New Yorkers, the Seaport is a pleasant place to spend a warm evening, and somewhere new to take out-of-town guests. What it may be to you, the tourist, I thought I'd better haul myself down there to find out.

It's on the East River a little below Brooklyn Birdge. At the far end of the square we saw a large lunch crowd at outdoor tables belonging to an adjoining restaurant.

She goes on to say that if you are a tourist, this would be a nice place to spend a summer evening watching the boats while you eat and there are many street performers there in the summer and many choices of restaurants where you can sit outside and enjoy the sights and lights of NYC.

Here is a good interview with HH that I found. HH Interview If you go to this sight, do click on some of the places that she takes you. Its a very complete sight about HH.

From what I have read about the "Letters" book, it is a copy of all the BBC programs that HH made over a six year span. Later they were put together as a book.

Here is Amazon.com's synopsis about "Letters" synopsis. From the bestselling author of 84, Charing Cross Road comes the beguiling, funny, touching tale of life in New York City. For six years, Hanff held captive audiences all over the world with her monthly broadcasts on the BBC Woman's Hour. In five-minute vignettes, she conveyed life in "The Big Apple." Now these stories are

Synopsis The author of 84, Charring Cross Road compiles the best of her five-minute monthly BBC Woman's Hour Broadcasts about life in New York City into one volume that celebrates the Big Apple and all its inhabitants.

Oh Diane, I loved the umbrella story. Sounds so like the "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" movie which I loved. Beautiful cinematography.

Oh, thanks to you, Diane, for that lovely description of your last visit to NYC. What a pleasure it must have been for you and you were the one that lived near there growing up, I knew someone in the NS discussion was. And like Ann - the "umbrellas blossoming" - great story, great sight to see, I can see you standing there saying AH! and AH! again.

Ann - that sounds a delightful place for us to spend some time when we go there next, but don't they all!

No, Judy, you don't have to go back, I was just asking what you knew of HH - her age, her marital status, anything about her that you might know. And I will get Letters from New York!

Ann I wonder if that was the mall that we went to after dinner at Fraunses tavern? It sound like the right area and it was on the water.

Ella I believe HH was never married. In my reading I have never even heard mention of a boy friend. It is my belief that she was pretty much a loner. ill get back to you about age.

She has a point about going up with a building rather than tear up precious ground that is so scarce in NY city.

In HH's Letter she refers to either Richard's dog Duke, or Nina's dog Chester, as her one true love. I think she was serious. As far as her death, she died at the age of 80 in 1997. We came so close to knowing of her while she was still alive! She died at the De Witt Nursing Home in Manhattan with no surviving immediate family members and supported by Social Security, royalties (apparently not generous), and a $5,000 grant from the Authors League Fund to help pay her hospital bills.

But DO read Letter - she had some good years, several trips to London, and, it would seem, some claim to fame in a modest way.

All this and more from one of the clickables above - including a photo in which she looks just as she should!

My library copy of Apple is STILL sitting in the Santa Barbara branch in transit hold! Must I drive down there myself and hand it to the courier service?

For Heavens Sakes! Now why didn't I click on those marvelous clickables above and read that stuff - did you see those line drawings on one of those pages! Funny - one reminded me of the time my daughter and I were in the lobby of one the bigger theaters in NYC waiting to get through and a beautifully dressed lady (fur coat, heels, the diamond earrings) heard us talking and realizing we were the "Out-of-Towners" asked us what we thought of the city. We had a marvelous conversation and she was so pleased that we did not find it "full of cold and rude people" -

Thanks, Judy, for putting them up, just hadn't noticed them before and all my questions about HH were there all the time for me to read.

Am going to be gone over the weekend and may not have time tomorrow to post, so will add two-bits (is that a quarter?) now about the museums chapter - and which ones would you go to if you just had time for two?

I've made my choices and they would be the Museum of the City of New York, because I like the word "manageable" - so many aren't you know. You run through them trying to see a lot, and end up remembering very little, but this one sounds delightful with all sorts of artifacts from the city's history. It's at 104th and Fifth, which is uptown quite a long way, so we'll have to plan to see something else while we're there up there - ????????????

And then - it's not a museum but HH talks about it anyway and has a lovely picture in the book and that is Paley Park at 53rd between Madison and Fifth. We can find that and by the time we do, we'll need to sit down and have coffee and watch the waterfall at the back wall and just relax.

As for J.P.Morgan's hideous mansion - NAH! One Christmas a few years ago, my daughter gave me this huge - really heavy - biography of old J.P. Morgan and I've been trying to get through the thing ever since. When I run out of good books I'll occasionally pick it up and go a few more pages - he was truly an ugly man to look at and ugly to work for and ugly to have him as a father! Too much money ruins many a good person, don't you think?

Carnegie I like - he started poor and when he got rich he gave us all libraries and I lived in a little town that had one of his and I'll always be thankful for the man.

OK, I picked up my copy of Apple today. Also, invited my nice friend, Joan, who volunteers at our library and has also become an HH fan, to join us. You here, Joan?

Ella, isn't it amazing what is right under our fingertips that we miss sometimes! I miss most of it, I'm sure, but am so glad to have "noticed" these.

Now to catch up...

Diane I am so glad you finally got your book. I look forward to hearing from you in this folder. Its a real easy read and you will probably pass us all up.

JOAN, welcome we would love to have you join our discussion.

I'll be back tommorow and try to move on. Ella and Ann are gone and Ella is my main person, but we will perservere I am sure

Have a great evening.

O.K. Ellen I'm for Paley park if its small. hehe Her description of NY being split down the middle by fifth avenue into East and West sides. She feels that the two will never meet which is probably true. Especially in this day and age where people with money seem to be getting lots more and people in the middle seem to stay pretty much the same. Now I absolutly have to see Lenox Hill. I'll find the apartment houses where she lived thats for sure. Now this Yorkville sounds interesting I think we need to go there. Then somes Beekman Place and Murrray Hill and Tudor City. That should take me an entire day. I am making a list of things to do when we go back and I think after reading this book I should be able to do it in days planned around certian areas. Mostly walking I think. I have never walked as much in my life as I did in NY and enjoyed ever minute of it.

I'm here and I love the way she writes, she really had the gift. She's right about 6th Avenue, too, I remember how confusing that was, could never get it right, I'm loving the book.

ginny

I'm just finished packing for a short trip over to the coast - Apple was first to go in the suitcase! Not quite sure where we are in this discussion so I think I'll just skim the first few chapters and check in when we return.

By the way, I had just finished Letter from New York (have I mentioned how much I enjoyed it - I did? - well, I thought so!) when we heard about that awful thing in Central Park. All I could think was, "How DARE they!" Kinda glad HH wasn't around to hear of such rotten behavior.

Anyone who hasn't read Legacy of Q also has a treat in store. And I'm glad to be reading it after the other books. Ties things in nicely. That will only leave Underfoot in Show Business - I think her earliest book if you don't count all her children's history books.

Diane, when I read that Legacy of Q I had to rush out and get a set of his books. Then in the Mitford discussion, the author had mentioned one called THE ART OF READING by Arthur Quiller-Couch and I've ordered it and am very excitedly awaiting its arrival.

I would never have heard of "Q" if it weren't for her.

Have a great trip, and come back soon, yes, where ARE we, Miss Judy? In the book?

ginny

I think we are on page 78. When Ella left we were discussing the museum chapter which was page 63. O f course I have to ask Ella and she will want to catch up when they get back tommorow and Diane can catch up at the beach. You can read the whole book very quickly so others may be in different chapters. Aactually she doesn't have chapters just dates.

JUDY, YOU DID IT! CONGRATULATIONS!

You learned some HTML! Now learn a little more and soon you will be doing a whole heading and a home page - it's addictive - really! Am so proud you did this, I had to kid you a little about how long you've had a computer? It just took me ages to learn anything about HTML, but it's fun; however, you do a bit of @#@#@#@#%$^@%@ before you get to the above stage, don't you?

And Diane is off to the beach for what sounds like a great trip - how far away did you go Diane? And what beach? And where are you in Apple? We had a great visit in Toledo with 10-12-14 (somewhere in that vicinity at different times, people came for lunch, the day, the weekend, met a lot and remember their faces only) except for Ann and Jeryn with whom I have visited a number of times. A grand time! Slept 9 hours last night, was so tired.

Judy - Oh, you would have been the icing on a lovely cake! Would have loved for you to have come!

Will be back with next chapter of Apple soon!

Diane - are you back yet? Anybody here?

I've just spent about an hour, it seems, looking for the music to the song "Sidewalks of New York" - couldn't find the midi, but here are the words to the first verse. The song was before our time, but I remember it, do you?

Eastside, westside: all around the town! ... Boys and girls together -- And me with Mamie O'Rourke! -- In all kinds of weather, On the sidewalks of New York.

This next chapter is all about the "sides of New York" - I don't know if it is still like that, does anyone? Their own political clubs, papers, etc.

My daughter and I had a book about NYC the first time we went and we toured all the "districts" - each one unique - and we spent the nights going to the theatre or odd places. More fun! I remember we had a package deal at the Milford Plaza - not the best hotel, but in the theatre district. However, we decided never again. You get your meals included and we felt we had to be back in the hotel for our "free" - so to speak - meals and that didn't always work out satisfactorily!

HH is certainly right when she says THAT'S WHAT SPECIAL ABOUT NEW YORK.....THE CONCERN FOR THE MANY THAT PEOPLE HAVE WHEN THEY COME HERE, OR ACQUIRE AFTER THEY GET HERE. THAT'S WHY A HANDFUL OF RICH MEN AND WOMEN HAVE DONE SO MUCH FOR THE CITY

Judy - did you go to Zabar's? The best place for bagels and pastrami in the world?

The pictures in this chapter are just fabulous!

Diane now thats my kind of trip. I have a real thing about neighborhoods. I really wanted to go to the Bowery, but was walking around greenich village and had to meet Candi and was afraid if I went down the street that said Bowery I would be too late to meet her next time for sure.

No I did not get to Zabar's. Being from the west coast we really don't know much about real deli's. My list is growing so fast that next time I won't even have time to wake Ella up hehe

Judy - that was not Diane you were talking to above!

If you don't start paying attention, you are going to get your hands slapped with a ruler and sit in the corner! And I'll wake you up in NYC - you just wait!

Who else is here beside you and I? Any lurkers? Anyone? Don't want to be talking to myself, but the book is fun to read, HH is a personality!

O.K. Ella it was you, I am more spacey than usual. Going to work and coming home taking Don to the Dr, packing and going to Vegas. I leave HH in your most capable hands Ella. At least you will know who you're talking to.

Judy

Okay, Judy, HAVE FUN!

I'll be watching out for anyone who wants to come and talk about HH, or New York, New York - the city they named twice because it is so nice!

Let me hear from anyone out there and I'll come running in and we can just chat alone or with a crowd - YELL LOUD!

Sorry fellow HH-ers.

Here's what's going on and what will have to serve as excuses. I'm still fighting (and winning!) a case of the shingles. Our washing machine broke down and had to be replaced and a whole lot of mix-ups associated with that including our final choice which was finally delivered yesterday and DIDN'T WORK PROPERLY. Waited all day for repairman who called at 5:30pm needing to reschedule. My husband's back is killing him and we've exhausted places to go for help, it seems. And, in the meantime I'm reading "Legacy of Q" aloud to my husband and it's due back at the library tomorrow and can't be renewed again and I will not return it without finishing it.

But look, I'll finish it for sure tomorrow, and then I'm just itching (not literally, thank you) to get back into Apple. Are we to the part yet where she talks about the Frick Museum? I'm not an avid museum-goer but I did love that one. Small and friendly and it felt like a real find at the time.

OK, I'll be back soon. You know what I'm thinking would be fun? - to go on and read Letter from New York after we finish Apple, and then do Duchess of Bloomsbury Road, and finally Q. A sort of HH marathon. I know, I know - all this from the lady who can't even keep up with this one book! But anyway, what does anyone think?

I wonder if I could ask a favor. My copy of Apple has a carefully cut-out section of text. It's on page 81, opposite the photo of St. Patrick's and the last readable portion is, "When you go up to Fifty-ninth, where the park"..............and resumes, "...ters in skyscrapers along Sixth Avenue, and Rockefeller Center, which be-" Might anyone have the same version and be able to fill in the missing?

On the other side of the page (82) it reads up to "and it always gets them into trouble".............up to "We get the tour tickets at Avery Fisher Hall, I said, as we came"... Many thanks.

WHEW! You do have problems, Diane! As has been said, you can get a lot of trouble without a lot of trouble - Hahaha Hope your husband's back improves - my daughter has back problems and has gone everywhere for help also. It just happens periodically and there's nothing physically wrong, such a nuisance, it just puts her down for about 10 days!

Whatever kind of washer you bought that didn't work should be advertised, really!!! That's terrible. We've always stayed with Sears appliances and they have home repair if my husband can't fix it.

Yes, I'll fill in the missing text, and will get back to you with the reading of other HH books. Good idea! They do that with other authors here, no reason why we can't with this one. Here goes:

"When you go up to Fifty-ninth, where the park begins, you'll see that Central Park itself separates East from West, being bounded on the East by Fifth Avenue and on the West by Central Park West (an extension of Eighth Avenue), where Patsy lives. Both Fifth Avenue and Central Park West have fine views of the park, which is very evenhanded. Today the East Side is basically richer than the West; fifty years ago it was the other way around, which is also evenhanded.

What the West Side has always had that the East Side has never had is a concentration of the city's great performing-arts centers: the Broadway theaters, Carnegie Hall, Lincoln Center, the giant television network centers in skyscrapers along Sixth Avenue,........."

Diane, when you get back to the Apple book, tell some stories about the East and West sides if you know any. I find them fascinating. And then we can begin on page 93 for next time, Okay!

A program of Rogers and Hart music just ended on my PBS radio station with an announcement which went like this. Don't forget to read "Underfoot in ShowBusiness" by Helene Hanff. I have not idea why they announced this. I guess I should have been listening better instead of playing here on SN. Did anyone else hear it?

Oh Ann, no I didn't hear that. Wouldn't it be great if there would be a "revival" of HH's cult? Apparently she did have what some called a small cult following.

Thank you, Ella, for filling in the missing text. Um, could I nicely, pretty please, ask you to do the same for the other side of the paper where it ends off with "and it always gets them into trouble." And then resumes with "We get the tour tickets at Avery Fisher Hall, I said, as we came..."

What I'll do is print both sides out and give it to the library "fixers" of such things when I return the book. Why, I could even attach a little credit, "Graciously provided by Ella Gibbons, a Senior Net leader" or something like that. Really, thanks.

No I can't make too many comments on the East Side/West side thing. Remember I left NY when I was 22, back in '59 (having only actually lived in NY for a year - and the Village at that), and just wasn't aware of a lot of things that now I would be. I do remember always knowing that the "upper East Side" was "in" and walking along 5th Ave, in the upper 60's and 70's (that's streets - not decades!) I would look around and be aware that people of considerable wealth/fame/what-have-you resided there.

But Central Park was what mostly captured my interest - on the other side of Fifth. I didn't appreciate then what a remarkable achievement that park was and is. Incredible. I loved that zoo but, where is it that HH wrote that a whole section of the park was torn up for expansion of the Museum? And, I think that would have included the Zoo. And I would have agreed with HH. I guess there must be lots of places where you can buy peanuts to feed to the pigeons but Central Park is where I first did that and somehow was best. In those years I loved seeing the animals but my viewpoint on the caging up of animals has completely changed.

Let's see, are we discussing up to page 93, or starting there? Well, one segment that deserves to be called out is HH's description of her view of the Met from her ticket-taking post at the top of the grand stairway. It was a nasty, rainy day and the people entering the building looked frazzled, all "hunched forward, the way people do when they're cllimbing steps.

"But when they reached the third...step, they began to change. Coming up that staircase, they straightened, almost imperceptibly at first. They became erect, they began to climb more slowly - and about halfway up, every man almost unconsciously took the arm of the woman next to him. By the time they reached the top, the men were stepping aside to let the women pass, and the women were sweeping regally up to my table and smiling at me and saying, 'Good afternoon' which they don't normally say to a ticket-taker."

I love that picture. I wonder if I had been taking tickets there if I would have seen the same thing or would I have missed it? That's, to me, a big part of why I enjoy HH so much - it's not just her way with words (which is occasionally stunning) but it's WHAT she sees and notices.

Just before I left NY for California, a small dog bit me at an Italian street festival (on Mulberry Street of all places - remember the kid's book, "It Happened On Mulberry Street" by Dr. Seuss?). Couldn't find the dog so had to undergo rabies treatments for two weeks. I had resigned from my job, given up my Village apt., no longer had insurance, and had to cancel my plane tickets. Oh, what a time it was! And NO experience with doctors at all. Heck, I was young and healthy. So my step-dad, who had recently relocated to California from NY, referred me to a Dr. Gumport on upper 5th Ave. He was absolutely the nicest, kindest doctor. There I was - broke, with no income, meager savings, future all up in the air, and two weeks of doctor appointments to get through. But that dear man treated me and even acted as if he enjoyed having me there and just asked that I repay him when I could. You can believe that he was first in line when I received my first paycheck in California (had a temp job at UCLA in the Registrar's office). So much for snobbery and arrogant doctors!

I love HH's description of the difference between East Siders and West Siders. Given a controversial topic, the West Siders would march and demonstrate, sing "fight" songs, and show up on the 11 o'clock news. The East Siders would hold a "dignified debate" and send a telegram to the governor. She captures both sides and ya gotta love them both!

Time to take a break.

Oh, dear, Oh, dear DIANE!!

I'm off tomorrow for a week or 10 days to visit my daughter in Michigan and I took my book back to the Library. Just checking in for a few minutes today before I turn off the computer!

I wrote Judy a note asking her to continue here - she's been out of town also and I was just filling in for her!

Now I'll never get an honorable mention in a book at the Library! Boo Hoo!

Will send Judy another little note to be sure she looks in here! Thanks, Diane!

Hi Diane

Ella asked me to fill in until Judy gets back so here is your Page 82 paragraph.

If you're standing in front of 1 East Fifty-fourth Street and your're looking for 1 West Fifty-fourth Street, you'll find it right across Fifth Avenue or, as they say, right-across-the-street. But if you're standing in front of 1 East Sixty-fourth Street and your're looking for 1 West Sixty-fourth Street, it's not across the street, it's clear across Central Park, and you ask somebody where you a "crosstown" bus to take you over to the West Side. Patsy and I avoided this by turning west before we got to Fifty-ninth, where the park begins.

"We get the tour tickets at Avery................

That's it. Hope the library appreciates our hard work. Hahahaha!

Thanks, Ann. Glad not to have missed that description and I know exactly what she's talking about.

Hey, no reason I can't request a dual credit! Will keep you posted.

In the meantime, anyone who has an hour or so to spare must, absolutely MUST, go to the clickables at the top. The HH Tributory Page is loaded with photos, line drawings, and additional vignettes of our heroine. To read them is to become re-enchanted.

Ella, have a grand trip to Michigan. You will be missed.

I'M BACK

What great post's since I have been gone. Hi Ella and thanks for the great job you did while I was saying good bye to my money in the land of wonderful things. Came back a with a little less in my wallet but so what had a great trip.

Diane I love your post's. Hi Ann July is coming up quick, are you getting exzcited.

I'll be up to speed by tonight. We are on page 93 right? I did not go to the Riverside church on my trip. I think it was a pretty wise priest who "you don't spend millions on a cathedral when people around you are hungry."

Well that was stupid . I only wanted the big red letters to say I am back not the whole ----- thing. Oh well someday I will get it

Hey, Judy, did you visit the Episcolpalian cathedral, St John The Divine? Mary and I took a guided tour and were impressed. Started 100 years ago, its still in process. In reference to the starving masses and where money should be spent, I am of the opinion that some of these beautiful churches are spiritually uplifting and many of these communities spend many hours doing and giving for the poor. Especially the homeless. I do go on, don't I? I'll quit for now.

Glad you are home. How is your husband doing? Page 93, is it? Must get to reading now.

Hey, let's get talking!

I liked the interchange about elaborate churches vs. feeding the hungry. That thought has struck me many times and I'd never come to terms with it. But, of COURSE, the spiritual uplifting can often lead to deeper moments with God and His will, in turn leading us to "tend His lambs, feed His sheep...". Works for me.

Back to HH and Apple. I must say that reading her book made me realize that I had missed a lot. If I ever return (oh please, please!) I would certainly use this book as a reference.

The one thing I do remember in this section (pages 93 to 104 - that's where we are, right?) is Grant's Tomb. When I was fairly young, probably 5 or less, my parents used to take us there for picnic lunches and we would sit on the wall overlooking the Hudson. Then we'd walk around and admire the building, etc. But, I had no real appreciation of what it was all about. Years later (like just a few years ago was it?) I read that there had been no funds for maintenance and the whole place was covered with grafitti and litter. But, I think something was done about that and it should be back to its former dignity. Oh, just remembered something - again it was many years later when I made the connection about the joke, "Who's buried in Grant's Tomb?" You know how you hear things over and over without connecting? It was like that - oh, they're talking about THAT Grant's Tomb.

If I had realized that this site had anything to do with New York, I would never have signed on. My daily New York Times is more than enough. Goodbye.

Yes, but for us out in the Boonies... This book is the account of a dream that I for one would like to come true.

You're missing a good read, Rambler, have you read any Helene Hanff?

Doesn't she have a way tho, in the way she expresses herself? I was very sad to see that Patsy died, it must have left her bereft, I felt I knew Patsy too.

Diane, I think the last time I was at Grant's Tomb it looked a lot better. We did enjoy our trip there so much in 1998, we are seriously looking at NYC for a future Books Gathering, so stay tuned!!!

You know, this will make me seem a lot more ignorant than I guess I am, but I have always not understood the joke, Who is buried in Grant's Tomb? Why would that have started? Who else BUT Grant?

We've had a call to reread all the HH books and I know a LOT of us are on vacation but I wonder if there IS any interest in doing same? We could float a trial balloon in September and see if there is some interest?

ginny

Ginny I don't know how I feel about reading all the HH books again. I could in a heart beat but they are so short your could like read and comment on maybe 1 per week.

Oh boy page 105 start Greenwich Village. On my list for next time is The little Church Around The Corner. I walked all these little street that she is describing and it was wonderful. I am sure I saw St Lukes Place. Seeing the Village at night is another goal. I actually never though about going at night but I bet it is a intirely different experience and one I would probably really like.

Its surprising that NY people do not like Grand Central Station. Isn't it funny that both Patsy and HH had bad memories there.

I wonder why they both like the U.N. building. Up pops in my mind "boring". Who knew it sounds like fun. Another 16 acres donated to NY by the Rockefellers. They also donated the land for the Cloisters and that park. It would be interesting to know just how much of the city landmarks and buildings were donated bu that family.

Radio City Music Hall was great. We went there to see the Rockette's Christmas Show and it was one of my favorites. The organs on either side of the stage are huge and the music was wonderful. Then we couldn't get a cab so we ran 10 blocks to see the Lion King. Now if I put the U.N. building on my list there are already to many things for one trip. When will we ever see it all??

Judy

Well, I reluctantly agree that re-reading all of HH's books would be overdoing it. Especially since I am probably the most recent discoverer of her I am probably most enthusiastic and just want to be sure that no one misses a one. It's a not-wanting-to-let-go kind of thing. I only have the one left, "Underfoot in Show Business" and somewhere, some ONE said that was her best! Ooooh, I can hardly wait. The only library copy is due back on the 7th and then it's mine for 3 weeks.

This probably isn't the right place to say this but I think Apple is the least favorite of her books that I've read. I love it and I like it but when I think of the others, I'm far more captivated.

Having said that, may I put in that I LOVE Grand Central - always did and now that I'm far away I really miss it. Such an awesome place of excitement, comings and goings, memories. But the building itself - oh the upper level, the lower level, and all the gates to the trains and the sparkling cement walkways - just like one grand, huge amusement park. Maybe that's one place I would have liked to have shown to HH and helped her to see it through MY eyes. Did you know there's one place, an upper level exit to the street but I forget which one, where there are interesting acoustics which allow you to speak in a low voice, in a certain spot, and be heard by another person some distance away - of course, they have to be standing in just the right spot, too. To me, a magical place and thank you Jackie Kennedy and others for not letting them tear it down. Imagine!

Ahhh, Greenwich Village where I spent my first year out of college. In THOSE days it was such a casual, friendly, interesting place and, of course, I see I missed some highlights. Oh well. Next time. I lived, with roommates, in a walk-up (four floors, or two - can't remember!) over a little restaurant, just by Washington Square Park which I walked across every day to my job at New York University. It was so safe in those days that no one even thought about it's NOT being safe. Musicians performing all over, for free unless you wanted to toss a a few coins. Wonderful little restaurants and coffee shops that were not too expensive for young working women (and guys).

I'll tell a little tale on myself. While I was apartment-hunting I followed up on an ad in the Village Voice, THE Village paper.The apartment was in the East Village, which was just starting to be called that, and less desireable but also less expensive. I walked over there and located the manager, saying I wanted to see about the apartment for rent. He looked at me briefly and asked if I was gay. I replied that I was pretty cheerful most of the time and then HE replied that he didn't think I'd be happy there (!). Honestly, I puzzled about that for several years (I'm a slow learner). Hadn't I smiled enough? Didn't I appear happy? Didn't he like my looks? Of course, NOW we all know what he meant and when I finally figured it out, years later, I felt so dumb. Anyway, the Village was a wonderful place to be young and single and it broke my heart to be back there in '85 and see that dope and dopers had taken over the place and I was actually frightened to walk around.

I loved riding the Fifth Ave. bus with HH and Patsy through all the old landmarks. And I was thrilled when they walked through the Washington Mews just before the end (or beginning? of Fifth. I used to take a "long-cut" through there because it was so utterly charming with the cobblestone street, lanterns by the front doors. And now I know what it takes to live in one of those houses - you have to be on the faculty at NYU - and I was only a personnel clerk!

Back to Grand Central, HH describes it as a "huge, squat stone building". And proceeds to describe it from the OUTSIDE! Perhaps she never went inside? That must be it. From the inside, "squat" is the last word you might think of to describe it - that place soars. And I hope it always will.

Oh, Diane, we so enjoyed Grand Central Station in '98 and that's where we also went to a huge Christmas craft show where sister, Mary, purchased her mirrow with the folding doors. It looks great in her dining room. The young man who sold it to us took it to our hotel, on the subway, for $10. For a brief moment, I thought we were going to be dragging it everywhere we went that day. And, it was early in our day! We still had St John the Divine to see and the Rockettes plus the 5th Avenue decorations

Judy, you are right about missing some things and for me it was, Greenwich Village, but since we are really planning to go back in the spring, I will be hiking around it. Only a few blocks from our hotel,too. Oh, heaven!! I also want to see Washington Mews. Cobble stone streets? Lanterns by the doors? Ooooohhhhh, I can't wait! I just ordered three of HH's books from B&N with my winnings from the Book Wizard's site. I think that I ordered "The Duchess of Bloomsbury", "Backstage in Show Business"( or something like that) and "Letters from Q". Can't wait to see them!

Oh Ann, I'm excited for you - all that good reading in front of you. I've just received word from our library that "Underfoot..." is waiting for me so that will be my final (sob) HH book. It's a shame this discussion has fizzled out. Any suggestions?

Diane I am sorry it fizzeled out too. I think it was probably due a great deal to the DL who was in way over her head.

Ann I sure hope you get Letter from New York as it is one of the best and you should have it for your collection.

My list grows steadily for NY in May. I would hope they would get a sign up sheet soon. If you want to go to Greenich Village I would love to go with you. I don't think its necessary to have a author whe you are going to a book fair do you?? Seems a little redundant to me.

Ddid you see the post where a man went last year and you had the pick of many wonderful authors and you could go and hear them speak. I think he went to Stephen King and a couple of others. Why would we need a author?

Waiting to hear from you about Vancouver.

Hi Ella

Judy, in case nobody knows what you are talking about here, I naturally will muddy the waters and try to explain!

We are looking at New York in the spring for a definite meeting of the Books, our,( probably the way it looks now) next Books Gathering in May of 2001. I say MAY, but we are going to be attending the New Yorker Literary Festival which this year was May 5-7 and had every author you ever heard of in your life there, at $15 a clip you could hear YOUR favorite author speaking, Breakfast with Broadway Producers and Playwrights, Poetry in the Park, it's total literary happening.

We will try to get the sign up sheet out next week, so we can alert our hotel to hold a block of rooms. Since we now know the area and we're OLD HANDS at Books Gatherings, (thanks to the simply wonderful efforts of the Chicago and NYC groups) this one should be a SMASH. But I'm talking out of school here, we don't have anything ready yet.

But I do want to address the issue of the author. As you know we did have Thomas Hoving at our first Gathering and Studs Terkel at our second. And you are so right, we do want the Festival itself to take the place of our angst in procuring a Program and Author. Yet if we CAN get an author, kudos to us, we feel it sets us apart and keeps on making us the very special group we are, don't know of anybody else doing it!!!

So tentatively mark your mental calendars, PLEASE for May of 2000, The BIG APPLE, bring your books and let's plan to have a BALL!

ginny

Ginny,you have got to get a new calendar!! That's May of 2001!! You need a break, lady!! Hahaha! Let's make this discussion part of the NYC new trip, shall we? Well, maybe not a good idea but I bet it happens anyway!

As to our HH books, I am informed that I can have one of the books ordered but must wait until the end of July for the other two. So sad! I gave sister, Mary, her copy of Apple when I was in Indy this past weekend. She said she can't wait to read it so that she can plan on not missing anything on the May--2001 B&L visit!!! Tee Hee, Miss Ginny!!

Oh boy do I need one and a week is not enough, is it? hahaha We can leave this as an offshoot of the NYC Trip because it's got a whale of a lot of good info in it.

I'm changing the date to 2001, this coming Spring, and this book has a lot of things in it that I never visited, in all the times I've been in NYC, so I'm underlining it now! Maybe we can do a Helene Hanff walk.

I'm so sorry she died before we got to her.

ginny

O.K., Judy I'm in - that was a challenge I know. Yes, let's talk about our plans for May, shall we? What do each of us want to see in NYC next time besides the Literary Festival and all it provides. I've never been to a literary festival so it should be something, right in the middle of all those illustrious folk who have actually PUBLISHED something! Wouldn't it be great to see a hard copy of a book you had put together, sweated over, spent hours thinking of just the right word or sentence - I often thought if life didn't interfere (you know, the cooking, housework, social life, kids, phone ringing, endless tasks) I could write something, yes, I could.

But would I? Could I? Could you go to a little cabin in the woods with no one around and write? Of course, I'd want to take along a few books to read, and that would defeat the whole purpose. And one week wouldn't do it anyway!

When we revisit NYC I'll go along to Greenwich Village with you and Ann, Judy. And a play every evening, of course. That's what we did the first time Cindy and I went back in the 80's (but I was younger, then, in my early 60's, sigh). Did I tell you that we got very expensive tickets to see CATS - it was in it's first year (and I think it just folded recently), it was good particularly the music - Andrew Lloyd Weber wasn't it? That last song where the good cats are going to heaven, leaving the bad ones below, I loved that one.

But the best one of all was one we went to off-Broadway clear up in the 90's I think it was and I've remembered every bit of that one. It was called TWO FRIENDS and starred that fellow that was in the TV show where he was a coach and Dick Van Dyke's brother was an assistant coach. Anyway, these two men came to a cabin for a reunion after 10 years and the one came with the intent to commit suicide as his life was such a mess and the other friend brought him back on track. A simple play but it was very good acting we thought.

And then we got 15% off showing our ticket to this adorable restaurant around the corner where the locals ate and talked to us about our visit. They wanted to know everything we had seen and tried to talk us (me, really, Cindy would have!) into going to Chippendale's where the men strip!

Judy and Ann - you two would have gone, right? I would imagine it's still there, but I pass on that one!

Our poor Ginny she doesn't know the fourteenth from the fifteenth and 2000 from 2001. She needs a longer vacation than a few days and you will all be happy to hear I am working on that. In the meantime all we can do is monitor her and make sure she doesn't fall off the edge of the world. Sandy knows enough to keep a good hold on her thank goodness.

Now I know this is a little soon but we need to make a list of the broadway plays we want to see. I think I have a inside line there to getting tickets for ANY play we want to see.

I think a HH walk would be perfect. Also I plan to go to the Bowery and Brooklyn. The Bowery for sure and Brooklyn maybe. I also plan to stay at least a week. From where I live a week-end just doesn't get it.

Oh boy what else are we going to do???

JUDY

Count me in for a week, in May 2001... Maybe by that time, I'll quit coughing.

Is that still hanging on, Pat W? For heavens sake, shall we order up some of Ginger's chicken soup for you? Have you been to the doctor's?

A week of NYC? Don't think I could take it! It's so exciting there, the energy of those people - do you see how fast they walk there as if they were always late! Just to keep up is tiring, but.......

Must tell you about a program on PBS - it will differ probably from where you sit but watch for it. They are doing a series on THE STREETS OF AMERICA - and the very first one was FIFTH AVENUE IN NYC. Great, they showed old films and the history of the avenue. Now did you know it starts at the Washington Arch (I must see this), which was erected _____???? (I forget the date) as a temporary thing in honor of old George's __________ (something - birthday? I forget this also). Isn't this a great story??? Are you sure you want me along? Hahaha

Then everyone liked it so well they put up a permanent arch and there it stands. The series moved on up the avenue showing this and that. Great show - I doubt if they think Broad Street in Columbus, Ohio is worth a show, but I'm going to keep watching just in case!!

Oh, but Ella, Broad St was such a beautiful street in the early 1900's. My grandfather(my mother's father), while visiting Columbus, went out Broad St. in a horse and carriage. He said the trees from each side touched each other. And my aunt, from my Dad's side of the family, lived on Broad with her aunt, during the summers while her aunt made clothes for the doctor and his family who lived there. They lived across from Franklin Park. This would be in 1916 through 1926. She played in Franklin Park and made friends with two little girls who lived on the park. They were still living there 20 years ago.

Now, back to the Washington Arch, Mary and I saw it from our tour bus which took us all around that area before taking us across the bridge to Brooklyn. Down into a riverpark we went and on leaving the bus, we could look back on the very lit-up Manhattan. Beautiful!!

The Arch was lovely and I never got over the thrill of walking by it to and from work. Also the fountain behind it. Ahhh, memories.

The other thing, those charming Washington Mews, if I recall correctly, were just a block or so from the Arch and just to the left, as you faced the Arch. A sweet little surprise when I "discovered" them but, of course, well-known to many others.

This may be of interest - when I first moved to the Village, one of my first stops was at the "Evangeline Home", run by the the Salvation Army for, no, not unwed mothers but for young career women just out of school and away from home. It was on 13th Street, just on the northern edge of the Village, and typically very pretty - lots of mature trees lining the street and well-kept, attractive buildings. It was clean and well-run and the rents were reasonable. I still remember "Miles", the doorman who was the unofficial chaperone and made sure that no gentleman callers made it past the lobby and to the elevators. Goodness, but they were the days!

Just remembered this, too. The Evangeline consisted mostly of recent college grads (just women - did I mention that?) but also a group of resident Salvation Army members, always in full uniform. I'm sorry now but I never got well-acquainted with any of them. What a missed opportunity. Around Christmas time I would sometimes emerge from a subway and there they were, gathered around the sidewalk in their bonnets and with drums, singing away. It's hard to believe now, here in sunny California, that that was ever part of my life.

Oh Diane I sure hope you are going to NY with us you could show us things we would never see otherwise.

Ann and Ella we can start out early in the morning take a cab to Greenich Village, Candi and I know a little tiny coffee shop that has pastries to die for, Do Greenich and then walk on to Little Italy, If the sun is shining and I am sure it will be its the place to be for lunch. Then on and on and on I am so Excited

Me, too, Judy, and I second the motion that Diane must join us!

Here's the history of the Washington Arch:

The Washington Arch, NYC

And this is more than one will ever need to know, plus PICTURES!

Greenwich Village and the Washington Arch

I have to spend a lot of time on that site. Thanks Ella. Lets have our picture taken under the arch.

Judy

Oh, how I would LOVE, absolutely love to tour NY with you ladies. It may not be in the cards but who knows?

Nice clickables, Ella, on the Arch. I had no idea of all that history. How gracious of the one gentleman to realize that even people living in tenements might enjoy beauty. We need more of his ilk.

I was going to put up some of our pictures from NYC but cannot do so in here, even as clickables. Have to stick with our Photos folder. Diane, if you want to see some good pictures of all of us in NYC in '98, go to the folder-Photos-Then and Now, then look in the one for that long ago. At the moment, Jo Meander is working on a retrospective of NYC which should be up in the near future. Maybe you would want to wait for that. Ginny and Jo and Joan are all out of town or taking care of family matters, so it will be awhile. I found a super one of a sunset from the island ferry with Liberty in the background. So beautiful! I have one of St John the Divine, Track 29 in Union Station, the little neighborhood of 22nd St where Ella, Cindy, Mary and I took a stroll. Got a few of SoHo and many of the places to buy foods, Christmas trees and bread right there on the street. What an incredible place to live!

Here is a site with a few resturants. Its from Journywoman which is a site for women traveling alone but anything about NY looks good to me.http://www.journeywoman.com/gfc/sheeatsout.html

http://www.journeywoman.com/gfc/sheeatsout.html

Hi all I have family going to NY next year but I do not know just when but it will be a cousin get together so will want to wait on them as we will be staying at the home of one of my cousins. But I do know that you will have a good time. Ginger

We went to see this play once upon a time in NY and loved it - it's been there forever, is reasonable in price and in a darling old neighborhood. If anyone wants to go I'll be aboard the bus as I'd like to see it again.

The Fantastics in NYC

Note some of the big names that have played in the show.

Ella - thanks for the clickable to The Fantasticks. I thought I remembered that it was playing, off Broadway, while I was living in the Village but since I headed west in the fall of '59 and it opened in May of '60, well, seems like a time warp. Is the song "Under the Yum Yum Tree" from Fantasticks? I envy you that you DID see it. Do you remember any other other music from it? I think there were some good ones but none come to mind right now (but just wait till I turn the computer off!).

I did see Three Penny Opera while I was living just off Washington Square. My two roommates and I invited our mothers in to the city for the day and we took them to lunch and to Three Penny. As I recall, an unusual afternoon (our mothers had nothing much in common except that their daughters were good friends and had gone to school together).

This is so much FUN!

Judy invited me to come visit.

When I was 18 years old (1938) I was a messenger boy for an advertising agency and, as such, had to deliver advertising material to printing plants, periodicals, and all sorts of companies within the five boroughs of New York City. I used to brag at that time that you couldn't get me lost in the city. I was familiar with all the subway lines (at that time, IRT and BMT, and much later the Independent), all the elevateds (at that time the 3rd Ave and 6th Ave lines), I had stopped at one time or another at every station from the Battery up to Van Cortlandt Park, I knew exactly where each express and each local stopped and changed easily from one to another.

There were very few places that existed at that time where I hadn't gone -- every building in Rockefeller Center (French bldg, English bldg, RCA bldg, International Bldg, Associated Press Bldg), I knew all the subterranean tunnels below Radio City and could travel from one end of Rockefeller Center to the other without coming up to the street. I had seen shows at the Radio City Music Hall innumerable times beyond count -- also at the Roxy Theatre. I had seen radio broadcasts in the old NBC studio. I used to watch the ice skating in the Rockefeller Rink and watch the Christmas Decorations there and at Macy's.

I had been to the head of the Statue of Liberty (the highest that one was allowed), to the top of the Empire State Bldg, the Cloisters, the Museum of Natural History, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Science Museum in Radio City, the Acquarium at the Battery. I had sat on park benches with innumerable girls in the middle of Central Park at 2 a.m., I saw shows at the three Burlesque theatres on 42nd Street before they were closed up. I have walked along Broadway from the Battery, through Wall St., on up to the garment district, through Times Square, and past to Central Park. I have been in the Times Square milling crowd on New Year's Eve three times. I had seen the Central Park Zoo, the Bronx Zoo, the Bronx Botanical Gardens, the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens. I have on numerous occasions taken the Circle Line boat trip around Manhattan Island. And that's just Manhattan. I've lost track of how often I took the Staten Island Ferry (there was no Verrazanno Bridge) I've been to Coney Island hundreds and hundreds of times, flirted with hundreds of girls in skimpy bathing suits, and even swam in the ocean water long before it became polluted. I knew less about Queens and the Bronx but I still knew those boroughs.

I could go on. There was very little about New York City that I didn't know. But MY New York is no longer there. Over the past four years I attended 17 week-end seminars in Psychopharmacology held in the Marriott Hotel on West Street near the Battery. Each time I stayed for the entire week-end in the hotel. You may tell me otherwise but I continue to say the streets are not safe. Sure, the odds may be with you but I don't feel like playing the odds.

Yes, there are new places where I have never been. I have attended a symphony at Lincoln Center but that was years later (1968). Earlier the Metropolitan Opera was on 40th St. near the garment district. Much later I spent a considerable amount of time visiting the United Nations building. But I don't mind missing those places because, to me, the price to pay may be too high. This is only my view. I wouldn't want to discourage any one from visiting the Big Apple.

Robby

Wheweeee, Robby! A history lesson of old New York! I loved hearing that - did you always take subways or ride bicycles in that early job? And were there streetcars instead of buses? I would imagine that was so as in all the cities of America.

Oh, phooey, on you that NYC is more dangerous than any other city in the nation. One could just stay at home forever if one took that attitude as every place has its violence, shall we all tell Robby the headlines in our daily paper and compare them to the headlines in the N.Y.Times?

Of course, you must be careful! I'm careful in crowds, isn't everyone? And NYC is one big crowd, all the time, everywhere!

The first time my daughter and I proposed to go to NYC and I was thrilled to the bone a fellow in my office took one look at me and said "we have to talk." Obviously, to him I looked like a typical midwesterner who had never been anywhere and he proceeded to give me precautions. We followed them, I still follow them in crowded unknown cities in the states and overseas.

That first visit Cindy and I were in the middle of a "scene" on the sidewalks of N.Y. Four teenagers had tried to grab the wallets of two men not far from us - they had shopping bags and had their wallets out as if they were just putting them away. Hahahaha! Three of those teenagers were up against the wall of a building with handcuffs on so quick we couldn't take it in and the 4th teenager almost knocked Cindy down running into the street! They were undercover cops! They try very hard to protect tourists/citizens in big cities. But being careful only makes sense.

When I returned to NYC on a business trip in '85, my native-California husband was sure I was going to be mugged. I hadn't been back since leaving in '59 and frankly, I had some minor concerns, but the moment I got out of the taxi and started seeing familiar sights, I knew I was on home turf. The only precautions I took were to walk with the crowd when using a dark side street to cross over to a larger Avenue. It worked out just fine. Even late at night I never had to wait much for a little cluster to form and head where I was heading.

I rode the subways, too, and I remember walking as if I knew what I was doing (I did) and never felt any apprehension.

I must confess (no pun intended here!) to dropping in to St. Patrick's for a fast nostalgic walk-through (I'm not Catholic but you can't beat that place for serenity and a glorious feeling of, I don't know, being somewhere great and I used to do that when I was in the area. I don't know anywhere else where you can do that.). Anyway, a kind of pathetic old gent approached me and asked if I had any spare change. I did and, with some brief hesitation, I have him a small amount. I mean, if you can't be charitable in a Cathedral, where can you be? When he drifted away, another gentleman, well-dressed, stepped over to me and lectured me for having opened my purse in front of a stranger. It was sort of like having my dad there. I hung my head and acknowledged that of course, he was right but inside, I think I did the right thing. (My husband, by the way, doesn't know this story and DON'T ANYONE TELL!).

The one place I felt unsafe was in the Village and it broke my heart. I got out as quickly as I could and that was that. I hope things have improved. The other sorrow I had on that visit was the awful grafitti all over the subways. Not that they were ever what you'd call attractive but they had a certain subway look. The grafitti ruined it and I hated it. I think they have fixed that problem.

You folks have brought up the very thoughts that were in my mind -- danger in dark streets, possibility of purse snatching, graffiti -- as I said, it is no longer MY New York where I felt comfortable doing whatever I wanted (legally) wherever I wanted and whenever I wanted. I was my own master. I would no longer go out in certain areas of the Bronx. I realize that this is true of areas in other cities. I have not lived in a city for decades and feel no lack in my life.

Robby

Booy Robbie this was such a surprise to me. It wasn't the post I was expecting from you. I thought you'd be oboy oboy were going to NY. Can't imigine anyone not going to NY. Well you might not feel safe in NY but I sure did. Had a ball and walked everyplace.

They might have cleaned up Greenich Diane or I just didn't notice but I was there alone more than once and just loved it. People went out of their way to help us in NY.

Well those of us that went last time will have a great time because we now have our new list of what we want to see.

Ann where are you, times a passing!!!!!!

ROBBY...there has been no graffiti in the subways for years! You come walk with me in Manhattan...I do not walk down dark side streets alone or ride the subways alone at night. I haven't spent as much time there in the last 10 years as I did before then, but I think it has only changed for the better. No, your New York is gone...thank God!...and little old lady me thinks nothing of shopping here, there, and everywhere all by myself. I've never seen anyone snatch a purse, lift a billfold, or even look like they might want to. I do not hang around on the Upper East Side, either, meaning that I tend to frequent areas where it is more likely to have those problems. And the first thing you and I shall do, is go to the Opera!!! At Lincoln Center! And haunt the gift shop there...my favorite store...well, nearly my favorite. It's still a wonderous place, trust me!

Well, maybe I'm too old. I'm talking about New York City in the late thirties. Would you be willing to stroll through Central Park when it's so beautiful at midnight with the lamps shining on the trees? Are you willing to stroll along West Street at night and watch the lights on the passing ships on the Hudson? Are you willing to walk along Broadway at night from the Battery to Times Square and admire the tall dark buildings as you go along silhouetted against the night sky? Are you willing to saunter along 42nd St. and 8th Avenue at night and then take a subway to a hotel in Brooklyn or walk to Pennsylvania Station or that bus station (I forget its name)? Are you willing to leave the opera at Lincoln Center at night and walk crosstown from there to Times Square or Radio City?

These are the beauties and conveniences I'm talking about -- not going to stores (which can be found in other cities) or operas (which can be found in other cities). When I was in Chicago in November I had no problem leaving my hotel room at night and going to the Noel Howard show a couple of blocks away.

Robby

ROBBY...first, buy yourself a map. Lincoln Center is too far from Times Square for me to walk it. And no, I wouldn't walk thru Central Park at midnight. West Street, I think, is now the West Side Highway, and there is no place to walk right now, with all the construction going on. I've walked Broadway around 5th and 23rd St. often at night, and it's no different than 10:00 in the morning. The Flatiron Bldg. is just as beautiful, silhouetted against the sky. The City is for walking, and I sure did my share of it in my younger days while visiting there. I'm not afraid to do it now...just lack the physical stamina. And for goodness sake, I'm your age, or close to it...if I can do it, etc., etc....

Katie, you are right - Back in the 70's and 80's there was graffitti on the subways - GONE NOW - new stainless steel cars, pretty stations. And on OUR TRIP 2 years ago even the noise was gone, the honking taxis, etc. Guiliani performed a miracle I believe! And NYC crime is way down!

Change happens! Even good change happens!

Judy, I hope you are keeping a list of all these suggestions. I do want to take a tour of the United Nations next time we go. One thing I haven't as yet done! Has anybody? Is it worth the time? Were you awed?

Katie and Ella: Well, maybe you'll talk me into it yet. West Street still exists. The Twin Towers are on West St. True, I didn't go on the subways the last few times I was in NY -- maybe they are more beautiful now. I'll think about it.

Robby

Oh, Robby, just suck up and go!!! We are not going to spend our precious time talking you into this wonderful trip when we know that you can't resist joining this group wherever it goes. We protected you in Chicago and we will do the same in NYC. You can hitch rides with Ginny who takes a cab or a limo wherever she goes and has missed all the fun of walking the wondrous streets of NYC and riding the subways to everywhere. LOL!!! Just joshing you, Robby! We want you to go with us but only if you want to. We don't want you to miss the joy of staying at The Leo and having the big breakfast which will keep you walking and visiting for hours! Come on, Robby, we are such an safe group to travel with!!

Just finished "The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street" and now am ready to see London and England again! A 4th time! Nice book! Am rereading this one so that I am ready for the NYC trip. Can't wait to leave!

Our vacation is right around the corner, Judy. I am emailing our schedule to you today and will see you next week!!

Diane Church, I have a wonderful picture of the new graffiti in one of the subway stations. Its a tile picture of the Alice in Wonderland rabbit. NYC is improving their image!!

Ann: I know - I am apparently very cautious but can you protect me from the West Nile virus which has been detected in mosquitoes both in Westchester County and Suffolk County (where I lived as a small boy) and in birds in Staten Island?

Robby

Robbie as Ann says just suck it up and come on. We will take care of you. Isnn't there a song like that. Look what fun we had in Chicago well NY was twice as much fun. You couldn't walk at night in Chicago very far but you sure can in NY.

Remember everybody walking down to Baskin Robbins at 11:30 for ice cream. Running from the Rockettes to not miss the beginning of Lion King. Remeber the limo in front of Ragtime? We all bailed into that limo and it cost us 5.00 to the Leo house Oh boy it was too much fun. Diane you have to go, nobody has more fun than this group of old ladies.

OK -- BASKIN-ROBBINS DID IT !!

Boy oh Boy Robbie I knew you would cave. hehehe Yeah Baskin and Robbins every night. As I remember after one trip to Baskin & Robbins and a little can-can danceing in the lobby of the Leo House we were asked to remove ourselves from the lobby to a room in the back in order to keep the noise down.

I personally guarantee you will have more fun than a barrell of monkies.

Miss Ginny is due back today and maybe she will get the list up.

I can skip symphonies and operas and movies and fancy restaurants and specialty stores but I absolutely can NOT walk past an ice cream store!!

Robby

Ahhh, a man after my own heart! Baskin-Robbins it is, Robby! Oh, and there's a super deli-restaurant just down the street from the Leo where they introduce new dishes by giving everyone at the table, a serving. Just great! And around the corner, there's another deli where you can buy just about anything you want to eat and take it out. Remember that place, Ella! Great coffee,too. And the breakfasts at the Leo were no slouches either. All you can eat for $5 or if you prefer no bacon or eggs, its $3. I kid you not! We'll take Manhatten like a storm! And, JudyL, after all that chasing around on the subway, I find that the limo sounds pretty good to me.

Ann, Judy, I remember it all. I was too tired that night to dance in the lobby and on down to Baskins-Robbins - let's make it earlier in the evening next time, you guys! Have a little respect for your elders, please!!!! Now, Robby, I know you could go on all hours, being a young 78 or so, but I can't.

The little deli with 4 stools in the back with the wonderful coffee and bagels and cheese, along with free advice from the owner about NYC - what more can one hope for!

Robby, the Leo is not a first class hotel, but hopefully it won't close down the day we get there! Hahaha Where would the nuns go if they did?

Well Ella I did notice not that I would bring it up but the night we arrived you were in bed kind of early.

I tell you Ann that limo looked great to me.

I take a limo to and from the hotel where I stay in Vegas. Its 5.00 as opposed to 20.00 in a cab. You go right out a limo door, step in and away you go.

In Ny I went mostly by cab if I was downtown and tired. It was about 3-4 dollars to the Leo house and that was just fine with me.

Ella: I am 79, if you don't mind, and will be 80 in two months. So please respect YOUR elders !!

Robby

Oh, but you sound like a fun group to travel with. And with an appreciation of good food, without which, well, I couldn't even consider joining you!

Ann, thanks for the update on the subways. But I'm old fashioned - I think a subway should be subway-colored - no pictures, murals, etc. no matter how well done - I want them to have that same inches-thick khaki color they used to have. So much history caked into those inches of soot.

Does anyone know if they still have Hamburger Heavens there? They used to have really good hamburgers (duh!) and the seating was in little alcoves where people sat in semi-circles in seats with swinging trays in front. Hard to describe but if you've been there, you'll recognize what I'm trying to say.

If NYC is at ALL as I remember it, I think it would be impossible to go hungry - such a huge range of wonderful and interesting eating possibilities - at reasonable prices. In fact, even just next door to the Evangeline Home that I mentioned earlier was a little step-down place and Friday nights, any of my little group who was dateless would walk over for cocktails and dinner. I remember you could walk along just about anywhere and always, there were little step-down restaurants that looked inviting. You couldn't live long enough to try them all but it sure would be fun trying.

And there's one place I always wanted to go - the Russian Tea Room but that was way out of my price range. I don't even know why - in a city of exotic places, it seemed most exotic of all. I was brazen enough when I was back in '84 to step inside and get a fast peek around. It was luciously dimly-lit, richly furnished, subtle but good food smells - I MUST go there someday. It's right down the street from Carnegie Hall - is that 57th or so? Sigh. Talking like this is nearly as good as being there. Nearly. Well, almost nearly.

You folks are so hi-falutin. I'm used to Nedicks and Chock fulla Nuts.

Robby

Well, I've done it again. Revealed our secret hotel to a future visitor to NYC. She is originally from NJ and will be traveling with her husband to the shore there but they have planned on visiting NYC for one day(her husband is reluctant). So, I suggested that they go in early on Sunday and stay at the Leo, then have Monday,too. She said the price of hotels was preventing them from doing that so......................I revealed the Leo!!! I must be nuts!! Anyway, she contributed her own info to me about seeing Les Paul free. Seems he plays every night that he's available at the Iridium Club which is across the street from Rockefeller Centre. She called her husband and got the facts about this plus the address and the phone number. Her husband is a classical guitarist here in Columbus(plays with our symphony occasionally) and is thrilled at being able to see Les Paul. This lady was just selling me a new pair of walking shoes!!!! Now, when, I returned the next day to change the color of the shoes, I met another saleslady whose daughter is a V-P at Fox TV, out in California. These shoe saleladies certainly lead interesting lives!! Who would have thought!!!

Diane you give us some hope. Maybe you are thinking about it??????? Let me tell you you will never go hungry with this group. They had to get a crane to life the four of us from here onto the plane.hehehe I brough a case of bottled water with me and never heard the end of it.

We did everything from deli's ( which were new to me) to tiny coffee shops to just regular dinners to The Tavern On The Green. We did it all. Oh the Tavern On The Green at Christmas a sight you will never forget. ON that trip which was our first we all kind of went in our small seperate groups at night and then met up back at the hotel. I am sure this time it will be different. We can all pick the shows we want to see and plenty of time to get tickets.

For me new neighborhoods here I come.

Let me warn all of you, particularly Elder Robby (and that's going to be what you are called from now on!), about Judy who forgets that when she flies east she is going through 2 time zones. She will pound on your door at 11:30 p.m. just when you got to sleep and when you open the door she announces grimly - "What are you doing in bed at 8:30 at night." Hahaha - you may laugh, but it happened!

Ella: I was raised a Presbyterian and in that church an Elder was someone who was a guiding light in the church and was looked up to. Thank you for recognizing my true status.

Robby

Hahaha! Actually, Elder Robby, my husband was once an Elder in Old First Presbyterian Church, Columbus, OH, and the only status he ever obtained in our home was that he was the tallest! That's the only status you'll reach in our crowd in NYC also.

Ella: I see where I'm going to be forced to be humble in spite of myself.

Robby

Oh Robby, is Nedicks still there? I love(d) that place. There used to be such a catchy little jingle about Nedicks orange drink - it still runs through my head occasionally. If things work out according to my dreams (not my plans, my DREAMS!) I'll sing what I can remember of it to you one day. Just to warn you, I sing with more gusto than talent.

I used to regularly get a Nedicks breakfast at Penn Station -- coffee, small orange juice, and two whole wheat doughnuts -- $.25.

Robby

DIANA...the Russian Tea Room has just re-opened under new management and is supposed to be as good as ever. I was in the old one many years ago, and it wasn't expensive at all. A bit intimidating, but we had a nice table on the first floor. However, the elite eat upstairs or somewhere, I've heard. We had borscht, and it was heavenly! BTW, it's right next door to Carnegie Hall.

Diane, yes the Hamburger Heavens are still there according to my grandson. He even gave me the directions to the one in Greenwich Village. Guess I will have to look it up next May.

Speaking of hamburgers (which is ridiculous for me as I am a vegetarian!), what ever happened to all the little White House restaurants all over the city?

Robby

Katie, thanks for the post on the Russian Tea Room. I wonder if that's one of those places that it's better to dream about than to actually experience? No, I think I'd like to actually eat there.

Oh Ann, yes, please do look up a Hamburger Heaven (but I do not remember one in the Village?) and see if maybe they now have Veggie Burgers for Robby. Actually, for me, too. I'm not a vegetarian but given a choice, I'll take a veggie burger over a regular hamburger most of the time. It's the fixings, anyway, that make them so good, right?

Well, the Village may be expanded in my grandson's view and since we were staying in Chelsea, he instructed me from there. Its all in your perspective, isn't it? To him, everything is close by, and to me the question is, will my legs walk that far???

Oh Ann don't you remember in NY your legs go twice as far as any place else in the world. My daughter said I was outwalking her which made me feel good. Theres just always something to see around the next corner or in the next block.

You people are making me jealous... I WILL go to NYC in May 2001

Oh, great, Pat W. We'll have all our crowd there, will be a hot time in the town that weekend!

And be sure to bring your cane, as Ann and I might need to borrow it from time to time. There is so much to see, as Judy said, and in many ways, it is all little hometowns that we knew back when we were young - the small friendly shops with individual owners who talk to you and welcome you. None of these stores with the long cashiers lines who don't know the price of anything unless it has a code on it and have no idea of where anything in the store is located.

Although I didn't shop in the big department stores as Ann and Mary did, perhaps they are the same - no clerks around anywhere, but one customer service desk at the exit.

I loved the Chelsea section where the Leo is located. We would take walks around the several blocks and each pick our "own" brownstone to live in and dream away!

I picked out my brownstone but it was in Greenich Village and I could look down the end of the block and see the Hudson River. I also had my own cheese man, butcher, green grocher, a coffee and pastry shop, a laundry cleaners and a couple of resturants. And best of all no car. Its just too great a place. I also like to take a cab to the area I am going to because if I walk from the Leo House its takes up the energy I have to walk the neighborhoods. We had fun one Saturday we walked down a few block from the Leo House and found a huge flea market set up taking up nearly a whole block. From to see what people have in their flea markets in different towns.

My mother grew up in Greenwich Village (somewhere I have the actual address) in the latter part of the 19th Century when it was actually "village-like." Her sister died five years ago one month under 100 and saw the area change radically.

Robby

Somewhere recently I read a funny story about laundries (can't remember where), but a foreigner had come to America and when he saw the sign "coin laundry" he remarked that Americans are so clean they have to launder their money! Hahaha

How changed, Robby?

Ella: My mother was born in 1892. My aunt who just died (born in 1895) said that although autos had been invented, there were only horses and carriages traveling around The Village. I believe there are still stone steps where a Lady can climb up to the carriage. It was much more peaceful -- no sounds of autos or police sirens -- and of course everyone knew everyone. Nowadays it still has some gaslights (for theatrical purposes) but at that time it was all gaslight.

Robby

ANN...about walking...going north and south, there are 20 blocks to a mile. My son used to give me a hard time because I longed for a cab to go 10 blocks. He'd say, "I think you can walk ½ a mile, even in your high heels!" (And yes, I was still wearing them back then.)That's why I hate walking cross town. It seems to take forever because the blocks are so much longer. (Wider?)