Aaarrghhhhh! Welcome, me hearties, to sign up for our discussion of The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty! It begins officially on November 1. There's plenty of grog, salt pork, and duff aboard ship waiting for you!

You may be one of many who have seen a film about the mutiny on the H.M.S. Bounty. The thrilling story has attracted a number of famous actors such as Charles Laughton and Anthony Hopkins to portray Captain Bligh as a villain. Handsome leading men including Erroll Flynn, Clark Gable, Marlon Brando, and Mel Gibson have played the romantic leading role of Fletcher Christian.

This book is different. It's Captain Bligh's own written account of what happened. Maybe he wasn't such a villain, after all!

Find the paperback at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Mutiny-Board-H-M-S-Bounty-Captains/dp/1589762282

or the audio at Barnes and Noble: Audio Version

online version: Click on ONLINE VERSION OF THE BOOK above.

So climb aboard, you sea dogs, and find your copy of the book. Aaarrghhhhh!

Marni

Okay, put me before this mast. I'll be the botanist for the journey, after all, after all, we'll want to know it really is Artocarpus altilis (Parkinson) Fosberg when we start collecting.

Kleo

Having just read Two Years before the Mast by Dana
I'm not sure I'm up to shipping out as a common sea man/woman ...

Are midshipmen/woman positions open? I promise to climb the virtual rigging and
to supervise the common sailors, as a good m'shipman does.
Anyway, count me in, Marni!
(may I bring my Latin book along?)

Yay! Kleo, I'm signing you up. Would the botanist be before the mast? Well, it won't be for 2 years anyway. You won't have to do rough duties. We'll rely on your knowledge of plants on our journey.

What's Artocarpus altilis (Parkinson) Fosberg?

Yay, Mippy! Yes, we need some midshipmen. You're signed on. Please bring your Latin book. Maybe you can help me. I need it! I'll bring mine, too. We can study up in the crow's nest.

I have no expertise at all to offer, but I'll sign on anyway. First-hand history is always interesting, ..assuming, of course, you're not reading some self-serving edited version of the truth. Actually, I have read before that Bligh was a top-notch seaman, whatever else he was.

Babi

Nah, botanist is a cushie position, although they're sometimes set ashore and made to walk the continent.

Kleo

I'll plan on participating too. I may get the Audio tape and and try that media for the first time. I've read most of the published works and led an overly broad discussion about 4-years ago. I say overly broad because we used no single books and included the three movies and the novels in the discussion. I look forward to this discussion centered on Bligh's own work..

Avast and welcome, BaBi and Harold! We don't require any particular expertise - just an interest in reading the Bligh and joining our discussion. I'm happily adding your names to our crew list.

Harold: I hope the audio version is a good one. It's quite a bit more expensive than the paperback. I'm hoping this book and the discussion will be completely different from that of 4 years ago. I missed that discussion. You're right. We will be focused.

Kleo: Your botany expertise will be so helpful when we get to some exotic islands. I know we'll be interested in some features of plants there when we arrive in November.

Yeh, Capn Marni, we'll be up in the vitual crow's nest, doing our hic, haec, hoc

There's a wonderful scene in at least one of the Patrick O'Brien books, where the Captain, Jack Aubrey, is trying to teach Latin to his group of midshipmen, and of course the boys don't see the point of studying Latin.
Have the rest of you hardy crew read any of the O'Brien books? IMO, his physician on shipboard, Stephen Maturin, is one of the most interesting characters in fiction. Love him!
Capn Marni ~ is off subject ok this early? Don't let me drift off course too far

IN edit: Capn, my Capn, you have been all over the book boards, recruiting crew! Way to go! Some experienced seamen/women, at least experienced readers, are likely to see your messages and jump aboard ship! Well done!

Marni, ahoy! I would like to come along, please.

Yay, Hats, ahoy! Climb aboard. We won't sail without you!

We have our quorum, everyone, so we're on for November 1!

Midshipman Mippy: Those O'Brian novels about Aubrey and Maturin were some of my very books of all time. I read them from start to finish as fast as I could get my hands on them after I finished the Horatio Hornblower series. Both series were so much fun. I may go back and read them again. I noticed in Barnes & Noble that the O'Brian books are being sold now in packages where you can buy the whole set quite cheaply. I don't own them all. I had gotten as many as possible from the library and had bought just the ones the library didn't have so I could read them in order.

MIPPY, I loved the Hornblower books. Thanks for the ref. to Patrick O' Brian. I'll look him up.

Babi

Good luck getting your books, everyone. Be sure you get the William Bligh book The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty. There are many other books about the mutiny and info entitled "Mutiny on the Bounty." But that's not our book. We want the William Bligh version.

I first read it when I got it from the library - the hardback. It is different from the paperback I subsequently bought from Amazon.com only in that it had notes by the editor which are not in my paperback. Everything else was the same.

The online edition is the same as my paperback except that dates are included in each chapter. They're missing from my paperback.

Marni

I'd like to read the book with you;the subject interests me.

I, too, am a Patrick O'Brian fan. Did you know that both Jack Aubrey and Horatio Hornblower are modeled after the same real-life character--Thomas Cochrane. Some of Aubrey's exploits are pretty much taken straight from Cochrane's life, and in some cases the true story is even more improbable than the fiction, for instance, the battle between the Sophie and the Cacafuego (really Speedy and Gamo) and the way Cochrane essentially achieved naval control of the whole western coast of South America with one ship and a lot of bluff and luck.

Ahoy, Pat H! Welcome aboard! We saved you some grog. Yay! Another O'Brian fan. That's interesting that both Aubrey and Hornblower were modeled after the same person. Must have been the exploits rather than the personality, though, because Jack and Horatio were so different except in their nautical and leadership skills. I was so surprised to find out that Admiral Nelson's first name was Horatio. I suppose that's where Horatio Hornblower's name came from.

You're right about the true story being even more improbable than the fiction. I've been reading about the Barbary War and it is absolutely unbelievable the things that happened. It's like reading an O'Brian novel except that it was real. I hope we read exploits like that with our Bligh book, too!

I just had an interesting experience this weekend. We climbed up the Stonington, CT lighthouse/museum. It's the first time I've ever been to the top of a lighthouse. It was pretty cool. There was a big cistern and a well that we could look down into below. And to climb up, we had to climb a narrow metal circular staircase that wound up and around up and up and up and up until finally we had to climb up a small ladder to get to the top. We saw lights that warned the ships back in the day.

With our tickets we were also able to get a guided tour of the Nathaniel Palmer house in Stonington. His claim to fame is that he was a sea captain who supposedly was the man who discovered Antarctica in 1820. I can't believe it, though, because last year at Yale we saw an Xray of what is supposed to be the first painting of Antarctica (underneath another painting) by William Hodges, a draftsman on one of Captain Cook's voyages in the 1700's. Captain Cook had already been to Antarctica in the 18th century.

Glad to have you aboard, Pat!

Marni

Marni, did Captain Cook discover Antarctica? I bet his life is interesting too. I am not familiar with ship language like aft, bosun, etc. Is that important? I guess you and others will guide me along. I have my William Bligh book too.

Hi, Hats! No, you don't have to know a thing about nautical terms! I don't know them myself except for a few terms I've heard in pirate movies and in reading. I grew up in the port of New London, CT where the US Coast Guard Academy and a US Submarine Base are located. Growing up, I sailed small sailboats with my friends; so I know the difference between starboard and port, but not much else! It doesn't matter at all!

Here's a glossary of some nautical terms, if you're interested:

http://www.tcmall.com/nauticalknowhow/GLOSSARY.htm

I think people knew Antarctica was there even before Cook. I just read something on the internet that a Greek geographer wrote about Antarctica in 150 A.D. He called it a place of evil. It is not known how the Greek might have learned about it.

I just read that Cook was known to have gotten only within 150 miles of Antarctica. I wonder if that's true? I also read that Nathaniel Palmer circumnavigated Antarctica.

We always seem to be finding out new information about past events. It makes history exciting. Did anyone read the book 1421 - The Year the Chinese Discovered the World - about Admiral Zheng He's fleet and its journeys? I found out about it on this site. What a fascinating story!

Marni

Marni, thanks for the glossary. It will come in handy.

1421 The Year the Chinese Discovered the World This is a very interesting and even entertaining read but I understand that the author is unable to substantiate most of his assertions and many of his claims have now been debunked by others in the field. - A friend who happens to be a cartographer has expressed concern over matters he considers to be spurious in regard to several of the maps used in this book and says one should take everything the author says with a large grain of salt.Nonetheless the author has already made a zillion pounds from sales.

gumtree -- I've read most of it, some time ago.. It is interesting and his premises sound real or possible, but I am always skeptical about "new" discoveries like this author presents. I'll go look and see what "they" say about the book now.

Yes, I agree. Somewhere, a while ago, I read a book review which said the Chinese Discovered...
facts were unsubstantiated.
Perhaps for this group, there are other more worthwhile books to buy.

Re 1421 - the author did not substantiate most of his theories in his book re the exploration of the new world. Some ideas seemed pretty far out. But it was interesting to read his theories. The most interesting thing to me was to read about Zheng He and the Chinese fleet and the times of the Ming dynasty. It does seem that they really did have a very thriving trade business with the section of the world including southeast Asia, Indonesia, India, and part of Africa.

Marni - I agree that it is always good to hear of new theories and as you say the book itself gives an insight into 15th century China and its civilisation at that time - but I think we should remain aware that this book is not grounded in historical fact so far as the exploration is concerned - or the size of the fleet and length of individual boats etc.

Gumtree: I just realized I haven't welcomed you aboard to our discussion yet! Are you joining us in reading the Bligh account of the mutiny? I hope so!!

Marni

Marni - Thanks for your welcome. I'm not sure whether I'll be able to participate - every time I try to become involved in the discussions something gets in my way.- For the moment can we take it that I will probably be lurking around whenever I can?

Bligh is a very interesting character and if nothing else was a great navigator. His own account of the Mutiny should be quite revealing. He has his place in Australian history.

Lurk away, Gumtree. If you don't have the book, it's available online by clicking the "ONLINE VERSION OF THE BOOK" link above.

When we begin our discussion of the book in October, it will be interesting to hear your perspective of Bligh's abilities and about his place in Australian history.

Marni

Gumtree,

Wasn't he governor of New South Wales for a while?

Kleo

Kleo Yes indeed, Bligh certainly had a turbulent career. He was appointed Governor of New South Wales Colony early 1800s when the colony was somewhat in disarray. Bligh tried to put things right but when he attempted to prohibit the paying of workers in rum he was arrested and deposed by a conspiracy of profiteers (military and civilian) The events leading up to the 'Rum Rebellion' were quite a saga.

Ah, yes, that's right, gumtree, Bligh's second encounter with mutineers.

I was researching Norfolk Island Pines (Araucaria heterophylla) a while ago and learned all the connections among Bligh, mutineers, New South Wales, Norfolk Island, Pitcairn Island, the mutineers, and all. Rather obnoxiously fun.

Thanks, gumtree.

Kleo

Marni, can we start talking about ship language? With my lack of knowledge about seafaring journeys, I am afraid of becoming lost, swallowed up by the waves of the ocean.

Ahoy, Hats! Don't worry about nautical language. There are certainly nautical terms that Bligh uses in the book, so just bring any questions you have to our discussion. If we come across anything we don't understand, we can help each other out.

There is approx. 1 month to go before our discussion officially begins. I don't want to begin too early a discussion of the book or Bligh, or the story of the mutiny, what led to it, and the aftermath. It's not fair to those who haven't read the book and who don't want it spoiled. Some folks, with reason, get irritated when too much is discussed before the official start date. In the last discussion I led, one member dropped out because she was upset that we started ahead of time without her. I couldn't blame her for being upset.

Some folks are anxious to begin early because they read the book early and really want to talk about it, or because they have knowledge of an aspect of the book, or because they have questions. I think the most important thing is that we simply have respect for each other and make sure we don't spoil the book for others.

Personally, I enjoy pre-discussions about related topics, as long as we're careful to steer clear (HAH! "steer clear"!) of the book, the mutiny, William Bligh, etc.

How do the rest of you feel about beginning a pre-discussion?

If anyone is interested in discussing nautical terms before November, I have an idea for a topic related to Hats' question:

Many nautical terms have come to be used in everyday language today - like "steer clear." Can you think of any others? Do you know their derivations?

Marni

Lower the anchor, is that a nautical term? Bow and stern of the ship?

Hi everybody - Sounds like an interesting discussion. I vaguely remember the movie with Marlon Brando, And I think I'll enjoy the book. I always enjoy Sr Net book discussions, even if I disliked the book. Sign me up! ~JudyS

Ahoy, JudyS! Welcome aboard! Hope you found the book OK. Plenty of time to get ahold of it. To read the book online, click the link above that says: ONLINE VERSION OF THE BOOK.

Marni

Hats: Re "Lower the anchor, is that a nautical term?" It is surely a nautical term. A boat's crew lowers or casts out its anchor, a heavily-weighted object attached to a rope or chain or cable, until the anchor grips the land below water to keep the boat from moving any further. The anchor holds the ship in place so it doesn't float off.

I have never heard the term "lower the anchor" used except as a nautical term. How would you use it in everyday language?

I've heard the word "anchor" used as a term for something used to hold things securely in place.

My dad had a small steel anchor for his teeny motor boat when I was young. Dad could just pick it up and throw it overboard. It had flukes on it for gripping. He'd throw it in the water by the rope attached to it and the anchor would sink from its weight. He'd then pull on the rope until he felt the anchor firmly grab the sand below. Larger boats need larger anchors. Ship anchors can be so large that the crew have to raise and lower them with special leverage devices. Some ships have multiple anchors.

Last weekend I saw an old anchor in a nautical museum in Stonington, CT. It was made out of a rock attached to a chain.

Here is some interesting info plus pictures of anchors:

http://www.answers.com/topic/anchor

Hats: Re "Bow and stern of the ship" - The bow (pronounced as in a dog barks "bow wow," not as in a bowtie) is the front of a boat; the stern is the back.

My husband's dad was in the Merchant Marine. He had to memorize the names of every sail and every rope on a ship. They all have different names.

Below are some links to terrific sites where you can see the parts of a ship and see what it might have been like aboard an 18th century sailing ship.

Parts of a ship: http://www.wanttaja.com/navlinks/SHIPVIEW.HTM

Decks of USS Constitution. Click on "Virtual Tour": http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/

360 degree tour of USS Constitution: http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/360degreeGallery.htm

Marni

Marni, Good stuff.

Would folks like to learn about some of the plants or ecology in the pre-discussion? Like the whys and whatfors of the breadfruit? Let me know. I haven't reread the Bligh book yet, though, so if this is in his book, let me know, and I'll save it.

Kleo

Kleo, I would love to learn about plants and ecology. What is Breadfruit?

I've been curious about breadfruit ever since I saw the Movie! And I've never seen it for sale anyplace.

Batten down the hatches! Is that spelled right?
I think we use the expression to mean get ready to go, get set for an event,
but it sure is taken from the days of sailing ships, with their hatches to be closed in "heavy" weather.

I'd love to participate in any prediscussion that you designate, O Capt'n Marnie!

You batten down the hatches (fasten them closed) to prepare for bad weather, hence you "batten down the hatches" to prepare for something difficult or dangerous. You might even "clear the decks" in the process.

"Batten down the hatches" and "clear the decks." Good ones, Midshipman Mippy and Pat H!

I thought of another one: "Know the Ropes" or "Learn the Ropes" - I use this one myself when I mean I know how to do something. There were miles of ropes in the rigging of sailing ships. Experienced seamen had to know the functions of all of these lines and know where they were located, which was which - and they all had names.

Anybody have another one?

Kleo: I can hardly wait to find out about breadfruit. Darn - I think we'd better wait til the formal discussion on breadfruit since it's such key part of the story. Some participants don't read through all the pre-discussion and will just join in where our posts begin on Nov. 1.

Hold that thought!!!!

I have an idea, though. There are/were other important foods that were important in the Society Islands.

Kleo: Can you tell us about some of the other important plants that were important foods on Pacific islands in that area? Thanks!

Marni

Permission to come aboard!

I think this is going to be a very interesting discussion. Bit of history involved where I live!

Capt William Bligh was married here while Fletcher Christian had relatives living here. Also Midshipman Heywood's family lived here.

Bodie

Bodie: Ahoy! Welcome aboard! This is very exciting! You'll be able to give us such interesting information!

Where do you live?

Marni

Anchors Aweigh - or is it "Away?" - I think means that the anchors are taken up, and now the ship can get underway. Or is it underweigh? ~JudyS

Anchors Aweigh or Away - Good question. I have no idea. Let me see if it's in the nautical glossary.....

I found that "AWEIGH" means "The position of anchor as it is raised clear of the bottom." So that's probably how you spell it.

Here again is the nautical glossary I found on the web. I'll see if we can put it in the Heading above.

http://www.tcmall.com/nauticalknowhow/GLOSSARY.htm

I found this, too: "UNDERWAY - Vessel in motion, i.e., when not moored, at anchor, or aground."

Marni

I found a couple of fun nautical expressions used commonly today:

"Three Sheets to the Wind" - A sheet is a rope line which controls the tension on the downwind side of a square sail. If, on a three masted fully rigged ship, the sheets of the three lower course sails are loose, the sails will flap and flutter and are said to be "in the wind". A ship in this condition would stagger and wander aimlessly downwind.

I've been "three sheets to the wind" a couple of times in my life!!

Here's a related term:

"Groggy" - In 1740, British Admiral Vernon (whose nickname was "Old Grogram" for the cloak of grogram which he wore) ordered that the sailors' daily ration of rum be diluted with water. The men called the mixture "grog." A sailor who drank too much grog was "groggy."

I often feel groggy when I wake up in the morning.

Here's an interesting one....

"Let the Cat Out of the Bag" - In the Royal Navy the punishment prescribed for most serious crimes was flogging. This was administered by the Bosun's Mate using a whip called a cat o' nine tails. The "cat" was kept in a leather or baize bag. It was considered bad news indeed when the cat was let out of the bag. Other sources attribute the expression to the old english market scam of selling someone a pig in a poke (bag) when the pig turned out to be a cat instead.

We "let the cat out of the bag" when we tell something that is supposed to be a secret, or reveal something too soon.

Marni

Bodie: Do you live on the Isle of Man?

Marni, that nautical word list is interesting. I wonder if all those words were specifically invented for life at sea, or they had other meanings before being used on board. ~JudyS

Judy: That's a good question. I have no idea. I wonder if Harold can give us his opinions on that. He was in the Navy.

My guess would be that the language evolved from life at sea. Men had gone "down to the sea in ships" for so very long. I imagine the tasks required, specific to the naval jobs, resulted in a whole new language. Those who went to sea lived in their own world, often for an extremely long time, even years sometimes.

Sailors probably brought their special language home with them. They probably talked like that around home and around their friends. It makes sense that others would pick up the expressions.

Here's an expression my dad used all the time when I was growing up. (He was in the Navy during WWII.) "Pipe Down" - Means stop talking and be quiet. "Pipe Down" was the last signal from the Bosun's pipe each day which meant "lights out" and "silence."

Marni

Here's a picture of a Bosun's (also spelled Boatswain's) pipe:

http://www.stanleylondon.com/bosuncase.htm

Here's information about a Boatswain's pipe, plus you can listen to some of the pipe calls by scrolling halfway down and clicking on the links!

http://home.earthlink.net/~bosun-m8/id20.html

marni0308

Sorry not to have replied before now!

I do live in the Isle of Man- does everyone know where it is!

Bodie

Bodie: I'm so excited that you are joining us from the Isle of Man!

Personally, I don't know about the Isle except what you mentioned in your earlier post. I believe the Isle of Man is somewhere off the western coast of England.

Can you tell us about your Isle? Were you born there?

Thanks!

Marni

Yes, I know where the Isle of Man is--nestled between England and Ireland, with Scotland to the north, but I don't know much about it. What is it like, and what is it like to live there?

I have a friend here who comes from the Isle of Man. She emigrated in the 1960s and is very interesting when she talks about her birthplace - the people and some of the old customs - would enjoy to hear more about it from you.

Marni0308-Pat H-gumtree

Thanks

The Isle of Man is situated between the United Kingdom mainland and Ireland. The nearest point to the Island is near Galloway in Scotland which is 16 miles from a place called the Point of Ayre in the north of the Island.

The Island is approximately 32.5 miles long and 13 miles wide. In recent months a census was taken and although the full figures have not been released, a provisional total of 80,000 people live here. However, it is thought the total will be nearer 83,000.

We are a self-governing Island and our parliament known as ÔTynwaldÕ, is thought to be the oldest parliament in the world. We have our own ÔManx languageÕ, which thankfully has seen a revival in recent years and is taught in the schools.

We host annually the TT (Tourist Trophy) races. This being road racing over a thirty seven and three quarter mile circuit around parts of the Island. The races will have their centenary in 2007.

Yes, I have lived all my life here, in the capital called Douglas. I mentioned Midshipman Heywood who was on the ÔBountyÕ, the family home is or was about 4 miles away from where I live.

If you would like to know any thing else, be glad to tell you.

Bodie

Bodie - Thanks - tell us all you wish- The Manx races are well known here - at least among aficionados...

Bodie: Thanks for the information about your isle. I have heard of Manx cats and have read that men from the Isle of Man are referred to as "Manxmen."

Where does the word "Manx" come from? (Why the X?)

Is your language a Gaelic language?

Do the residents generally ferry to England or Scotland or Wales? You mentioned 16 miles to Scotland. How long would that trip take?

Are there many towns on the Isle of Man?

Important participants in the incident of the Bounty mutiny and the aftermath were from the Isle of Man. I imagine they are an important part of the Isle's history for tourists today. I would like to hold off on the particulars of this til we get into our discussion of the Bligh book in November. But I very much look forward to your insights in this then. So exciting!!!!

Thanks for your information, Bodie!

marni0308

Will answer your questions later in the day as family due.

Agree that the link between the Bounty and the Island best heldover until the disussion starts in November.

Bodie

marni0308

Yes spot on with Manx Cats, who have no tails at all! Also Manxmen we are called!

The word Manx is not as easy to explain. Going back 500 years it has been spelled as 'Mankse',Manske and Manks. As our history has a Norse connection from about 800 AD,a lot of Manx placenames have a Norse origin. Probably with the passage of time it has changed from some of the above to its present form. And Yes it is a Gaelic language.

The shortest point between the Island and Galloway in Scotland is not a sea going route, it is used to show how near or far we are from the United Kingdom mainland.

The ferry routes are from Douglas (capital) to mainly the ports of Liverpool( ferry 3.5 and Sea-Cat 2.5 hours) and Heysham (ferry 4hrs and Seat cat 2.5 hrs)with other sailings to Befast and Dublin. We have one passenger airport at Ronaldway, flying to the main UK towns and cities.

There are towns and villages on the Island. Many in fact,however, as the Island is small so are the towns and villages. About 30,000 live in Douglas.

Bodie

Thanks, Bodie!

Here are several maps of the Isle of Man:

http://www.gov.im/infocentre/maps.xml

Here's a map of the Isle in relation to the United Kingdom. You can click on the Isle of Man to see it.

http://www.isle-of-man.com/information/map-uk.shtml

Marni

Here's info and a picture of a manx cat:

http://www.fanciers.com/breed-faqs/manx-faq.html

I found this part very interesting:

"Many stories of the origin of the Manx are found in cat and mythology books. In many of these tales the Manx are descended from ship's cats who were shipwrecked on the Isle of Man when their ships were sunk off the coast. A commonly told story is the legend from the early 1600s of two ships from the Spanish Armada that were sunk off Spanish Point near Port Erin. The Isle of Man was the refuge for the tailless cats from these two ships. Another legend has it that the cat came from a ship wrecked in 1806 off Jurby Point, while another says it was a Baltic ship wrecked off Castle Rushen and Calf Island.

Early speculation considered the Annamite cats to be the beginning of the Manx, these cats having short tails. They were introduced into Burma. Others felt the Manx may be descended from Siam and Malaya. The Malaya Archipelago cats have kinked, knotted and short tails.

The Welsh also lay claim to the Manx in their legends and the people considered them sacred animals in early times.

British folklore has it that mom cats bit off their kittens' tails to keep humans from snatching them away."

marni0308

Some great information you have there, excellent links as well. Thank you.

Try this link to Isle of Man Guide, it has so many other links that gives a lot of history about the Island.

http://www.iomguide.com/

Bodie

Thank you, Brodie!

marni0308

With me being new to the discussion! Could I ask when it starts in what form will the discussion take?

Bodie

Brodie: I'm following a basic format used by some other Discussion Leaders. The format seems to work well, so I'm continuing with the same basic format.

We divide the book up into segments to be read each week. (See the Schedule above to see how our book is divided up.) Participants read that section and we discuss it throughout the week allotted for that section. The length of time for the discussion usually depends on the length of the book. In this case, the book is very small, but is meaty. We'll be taking one month for our discussion.

On the first day of each new week I will provide weekly discussion questions that will appear in the Header above. The questions are simply to stimulate discussion and are not meant to stifle any other discussion. Anyone can ask questions at any time. Anyone who is able or who is interested can answer any question or bring up any points. We can follow the questions, or not. Some folks, as they read, make a list of questions or notes or points that they want to bring up.

We discuss the particular section of the book for that week, along with related information that anyone in the group knows. For example, Kleo knows a great deal about plants and has information about breadfruit. Gum knows about Bligh's role in Australia and has information to share about that period of his life. You have information about the Isle of Man and its relation to The Bounty story.

Some people read ahead. Others don't. We try hard not to give away, or "spoil," information about future sections that some people have not yet read.

People often provide links to information on the internet to provide additional insights or to support an idea. We try to substantiate our information by providing sources. Many of us enjoy related information that may not be strictly pertaining to the book, but enriches our knowledge of the subject matter or of the times. We try not to veer too far off course.

Hah! "Veer off course!" Another nautical term!

Often, participants join for awhile in a "Pre-discussion" during the month preceding the formal book discussion. That's what this is. People bring up what they wish. I just ask that we respect each other and don't "spoil" the book for anyone by starting too soon. Some people cannot begin until the official start date.

I hope this helps!

Marni

Marni0308

That seems a very well tried and trusted format to me. Roll on November 1st!

As learning curve for me!

Bodie but Brodie.

Bodie

I think I should add one more thing about our book discussions. People in the group are from all over the world. We have no set timeframe for discussions. People join in whenever they can.

I use Eastern Standard Time because I live in New England - Windsor, Connecticut. I get up late and "attend" our online Latin class at about 10:30 a.m. or so weekdays. After that I usually check into book discussions. On weekends, I may be off now and then; but I'm always able to check in. I try to answer questions that arise if I can. I know you all will be helping me to do this.

I will be adding new weekly questions the night before each new week begins, in this case on Wednesdays after 12:00 a.m. Our wonderful technical staff, including PatW and Marjorie and Jane, help us out. PatW created our wonderful Header above and will help me add questions and links. Thank you, Pat!!!!

Marni

Oh, I'm sorry about misspelling your name, Bodie! My next door neighbor's son is named Brodie. I can see I am mixing up the names. So sorry!!!!

Marni0308

It often happens with names that we get mixed up!

Bodie

I am just horrible remembering names! Actually, I am getting to be forgetful about many things. It's very frustrating!

If I mess up anyone's names, please forgive me and let me know!

Years ago I bought a book about a method to remember names of people you meet. You are supposed to look directly at the person's face, at a particular identifying feature of the face, and imagine something happening on that facial feature that is related to the sound of the person's name.

For example, if a person's last name is "Wells," you might imagine someone hauling up well-water on the person's nose. As you imagine this, you pronounce the person's name aloud as you are saying Hello. For example, someone introduces you and says the person's name. You shake hands with the person and repeat the name aloud while you imagine the well-water. You repeat the name again.

I found this method difficult. I tried it for awhile. It took me too long to imagine a scene on the face. It actually worked, but I took too long.

Has anyone ever tried it?

Yes, Marnie, I've tried that, and it only works a little bit of the time.
At least here we can open all our books and references in front of us. There's no test! Right?

Definitely not tests, Mippy! Hahaha!!! Plus, we don't have to be dressed up! We can be in our bathrobes! Who would know???

marni0308

I tend to write a list when shopping, so I do not forget anything.

Trouble is I usually forget the list!!

Bodie

At least you're on the right track, Bodie. I'm a bit casual when it comes to shopping lists, but I try. Often I leave mine on the kitchen counter. But when I remember them, I feel very efficient.

If I have more than 3 things to buy and don't make a list, I'll forget one of them.

I feel the same way, Pat H!

Did anyone see "The Worst Jobs in History" tonight on the History International channel? It was about maritime occupations - quite interesting. I learned a few things.

In the 17th century, when England was building up its navy and cutting down forests to make ships, shipyard workers had the job of sawing wooden planks from tree trunks with a 2-man saw. Irons used to hold the logs were called "dogs." The junior man would stand in a sawpit holding the lower end of the saw. The senior man would stand above holding the other end standing on the log. The log would hang over the sawpit and they'd cut up and down. The man on top was called "top dog" and the man below was called "under dog." The under dog had the less desireable job because sawdust fell in his face.

Young midshipmen were called "snotties."

A sailing ship's speed was measured in "knots" because they used to measure a ship's speed with a rope knotted at fixed intervals. They'd throw the lightly weighted rope overboard at the stern and count a fixed period of time. (Some used a 28 second hourglass to time the operation.) Then they'd haul in the rope and measure the number of knots in the length of rope let out. Today 1 knot = 1 nautical mile/hour = 1.852 km/h exactly. This is based on the internationally agreed length of the nautical mile.

1 in 5 deaths at sea were from shipwrecks.

Oh, I forgot to mention another thing I learned on "The Worst Jobs in History":

Apparently, it was tradition in the British Navy that the first person caught lying each week was given the job of cleaning the "head" - the toilet. ("Head" in a nautical sense refers to the bow or fore part of a ship. The ship's toilet was typically placed at the head of the ship near the base of the bowsprit, where splashing water served to naturally clean the toilet area.) When a ship was in port, the sea water didn't wash away the mess, so the sailors had to do it. They were lowered down to the dirty area in a "boatswain's chair."

Info about a boatswain's, or bosun's, chair:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosun's_chair

?The first person caught lying? I wonder if lying was sort of a normal, expected behavior in the old sailing days. ~JudyS

It seems as though there must have been plenty of it, JudyS. The British Navy was really into clean ships.

On the TV program they said that in the British Navy the sailors had to wash the ship every day with saltwater. If the ship was thought to be unhealthy, for example, if there was disease aboard, they washed the ship with vinegar. Vinegar must have acted as a disinfectant, although I don't think they knew about that until later in the 18th century.?? But they must have figured out that it helped.

Now that I think about it, didn't Abigail Adams clean her house with vinegar - in Founding Mothers wasn't there something about that?

White vinegar is one of my normal, everyday cleaning products. It's surprising what a good job it does. I would think even if they didn't know about disinfecting, they'd probably notice that if there's a disease aboard two ships, the one cleaned with vinegar would have a healthier crew. ~JudyS

Decided to look on the Net about vinegar, It does get a good write-up from many people in relation to its medicinal and household usage.

I see for sore throats it is recommended as a gargle. Good for using in a vaporiser if congestion is a problem. They reckon good to use if too much sun, as it brings cool relief to the skin. Also good for relieving itching with bee stings.

It says great in the home as a glass cleaner and polishing chrome on the car. Many others uses as well

Bodie

Wow, I had no idea vinegar did all that!

Do you know what the difference between white vinegar and other vinegar is?

If anyone has started reading the book and has trouble with Bligh's use of nautical terms, PatW put our Nautical Glossary up in the Header above for us to use as a reference tool. It's under the Schedule.

Marni

marni0308

No idea what the difference is between white vinegar and the other vinegar is.

Bodie

The important ingredient of vinegar is acetic acid, which is the sour part. It is obtained from the fermenting of ethanol (alcohol). So if you leave your open bottle of wine sitting around, it turns sour, and you get wine vinegar (if you are lucky and it doesnÕt end up tasting like varnish). If you ferment apple juice long enough, you get cider vinegar. These have many flavors from their starting materials. If you ferment plain ethanol, or ferment almost anything and then purify it by some means such as distilling, you get white vinegar. It has the sourness, but not the extra tastes from grapes or apples or whatever. You would want to use white vinegar for anything like cleaning where all you wanted was the acidity, and the other vinegars where taste was important. IÕm sorry if I sound pedantic here; IÕm a chemist, and talk this way normally.

Pat H

Thank you fror the information,very interesting indeed.

Bodie

Thanks, Pat H. Interesting. I think the only thing I've ever used white vinegar for is dying Easter eggs. I have no idea why you are supposed to put the white vinegar in with the water and dye.

I suppose the saltwater would have had its cleansing value, too, for cleaning ships. Is salt an antisceptic? I know my doctor told me to rinse my mouth with saltwater when I had a sore gum.

Another way sailors had to clean a ship was to scour the deck with holystones. I read somewhere that they did that to get rid of slippery stuff that could cause the men to slip, but I'm not sure if that's the real reason. I didn't have any idea what a holystone was, so I looked it up. Answers.com says: "Holystone is a soft and brittle sandstone that was formerly used for scouring and whitening the wooden decks of ships. It was used in the British and American Navy for scrubbing the decks of sailing ships (e.g. it was done on the deck of the USS Brandywine before taking General La Fayette home to France.....The term may have come from the fact that 'holystoning the deck' was traditionally done on one's knees, as in prayer."

http://www.answers.com/topic/holystone

Golly, I just found something interesting reading about nautical terms. The term mayday "is the internationally recognized voice radio signal for ships and people in serious trouble at sea. Made official in 1948, it is an anglicizing of the French m'aidez, "help me."

Here are some more..... http://www.navy.mil/navydata/traditions/html/navyterm.html

Marni, I am reading all the clickables and information about nautical terms. This is really interesting. I thought "chewing the fat" meant men were spending time talking about anything they felt like talking about. Did anybody else think that?

I love the definition for why the holystone became known as holystone. That is funny.

Just another note on vinegar:
I think we use white vinegar for cleaning because it is the least expensive. I use it occasionally to clean out my coffee machine.

Hats: I agree with your understanding of what "chewing the fat" means today. It's interesting to see the derivation. Maybe it evolved into today's usage because the men gabbed at the table when they were chewing for so long.

It's amazing to see how many terms we use so commonly today started out as nautical terms.

Mippy: I totally forgot about how we use vinegar to clean today. I wonder if we use the distilled to clean so it doesn't stain? Maybe vinegar such as wine vinegar, which is red, stains.

I so often long to hear both sides of an issue. Sign me up.

Juanita Millican

Ahoy, Juanita! Welcome aboard! We have plenty of grog, salted meat, and sauerkraut for our journey. I'm carefully doling it out so it lasts through November!

We have such an excellent crew for William Bligh's story. Yes, we'll hear his side of what happened. It may be different from stories that have come down through history.

Grab your book, The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty, and take a look at our Schedule above.

Marni

I'm so excited that we have such a great group for our discussion that I'm making a duff to celebrate!

"Duff" is how British sailors pronounced "dough." A duff is a Navy pudding. Plum duff is plum pudding, a steamed suet pudding with raisins.

I found this recipe for duff on the internet. It's not at all like my suet-based plum pudding that I sometimes make for Christmas.

Sailor's Duff Pudding

1 egg
2 tablespoons sugar
_ cup sorghum
_ cup boiling water
1 teaspoon soda
2 tablespoons melted butter
pinch of salt
1_ cup pastry flour
1 teaspoon baking powder

Dissolve soda in boiling water. Sift flour with baking powder. Beat egg, sugar and sorghum with mixer and add remaining ingredients. Put in a ten inch angel food cake pan and steam one hour.

Sauce:

In a double boiler, cook one cup sugar and one cup butter. Remove from heat and cool till you can touch it with your finger. Stir in one egg and return to double boiler until it thickens (about three or four minutes). Add 1 tablespoon vinegar and serve over bread pudding.

------------------------------------------

Ooohh!! I just found a recipe for another pudding popular in the British Navy - "spotted dick." This sounds good. It sounds more like a steamed suet pudding. Maybe I'll try this instead:

Spotted Dick

2 oz plain flour
1 tsp baking powder
1/2 teaspoon mixed spice
pinch of salt
2 oz shredded suet
1 oz white or brown sugar
4 oz currants
2 oz fresh breadcrumbs
1 egg, beaten
4-5 tbsp milk

Butter a 1.5 pint pudding basin. Sift the flour, baking powder, spice and salt into a mixing bowl and mix in the suet, sugar, fruit and bread- crumbs. Stir in the egg and sufficient milk to produce a soft consistency that drops off the spoon in 5 seconds. Turn the mixture into the pudding basin, which should be two-thirds full. Cover with greased foil or a snap-on lid (the plastic container from a 2 lb Christmas pudding is worth saving for this purpose.) Steam for 2 to 2.5 hours. When cooked, remove the cover and allow the pudding to shrink slightly, then cover the basin with a hot serving plate, hold it firmly and invert. Lift off the basin to leave the pudding on the plate.

Serve hot with custard.

Custard

3 egg yolks
1 tbsp caster sugar
1/2 pint milk
1/4 tsp vanilla essence

Whisk the yolks and sugar together in a bowl. Heat the milk in a saucepan until it is nearly boiling. Whisk the hot milk gradually into the egg mixture. Put the bowl over a saucepan of simmering water and stir the mixture over the indirect heat until it is thick enough to coat the back of a wooden spoon. (Direct heat will make the custard curdle.) Stir in the vanilla essence and more sugar, according to taste. Strain and serve hot.

Marni

I just read that "Spotted Dick" was also called "Spotted Dog" and it was Jack Aubrey's favorite dessert, for you Patrick O'Brian fans.

Ugh! I just remembered the name of another favorite pudding in the O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin novels: Boiled Baby. I found a recipe:

Boiled Baby: serves four

4oz plain flour
2oz suet
lots of nutmeg
1/4 tsp cinnamon
a handful of lexia raisins (the really big ones you can get in Waitrose)
enough milk to bind

Mix the lot and put it in a pudding bowl. Put a cloth over the top and tie it tightly with string around the lip of the bowl. Boil for two hours - and voila! Your baby!

There is a cookbook called "Lobscouse and Spotted Dog", by Anne Chotzinoff Grossman and Lisa Grossman Thomas, in which the authors have supplied recipes for many of the dishes mentioned in Patrick O'Brian's books, along with some background recipes of the time and quotes from the books. It's full of cardiac disaster type recipes like the puddings made with suet. The authors, in an interview I read, said that unfortunately they found the recipes to be delicious: one particularly fatty pudding was especially tasty as leftovers, sliced and fried in lots of butter.

Pat H: I saw the names Anne Chotzinoff Grossman and Lisa Grossman Thomas and the title "Lobscouse and Spotted Dog" when I was looking up the recipes on the web. I'm going to check again and see if their recipes are there, or if it's just an ad for their book.....

I found a site which appears to be an ad for the book and a place to buy it along with info about Patrick O'Brian and his books. It's a fun site. Lots of info about naval food mentioned in the Aubrey/Maturin books.

http://www.wwnorton.com/pob/SpottedD/welcome.htm

There are some recipes on this site and pictures, like the following:

http://www.wwnorton.com/pob/SpottedD/holiday.htm

I'm planning to be a stowaway on your voyage. I've ordered the book, but won't post much (at least at first) as I'll be traveling the first week in November. But this looks like the perfect book to take with me.

Great facts about terminology. I have a book of nautical terms (thanks to PatH) but seem unable to remember them. When I read the O'Brian books (another addict -- I've read them all) I found myself looking up the same terms over and over. Maybe this discussion will do it.

Did those of you students of both Latin and O'Brien notice the passage where Aubrey says that until a seaman knows his "hic hoc huec" he's not a gentleman? Presumably that means I'm not a lady, since I've forgotten it already.

Oh Cap'n Marnie, our cap'n ~
Great nautical food! Aren't there so many books taking off from the O'Brien series!

There used to be a web site (cannot find it today) where fans discussed the series of novels. They even talked about the music that Jack and Steven played, showing how it was correct for the period.
Does anyone remember the sailors dances and the hornpipe dances they enjoyed? Here's a link:
Hornpipe

If I could would go on this trip just for the food but I will just observe.

Ahoy! JoanK, our stowaway and O'Brian aficionado, and Ginger, here to observe! Welcome aboard and Huzzah! Plenty of grog to go around!

Mippy: How interesting to read that info about the hornpipe. I loved reading that Henry Purcell wrote a hornpipe. I played some of his baroque music when I took piano lessons way back when. Dancing is important in the Bounty mutiny. And to read about the book The Dancing Master! Do you believe how many editions were published!! Guess what? You can still buy it:

http://www.amazon.com/English-Dancing-Master-Country-Dances/dp/0903102803

Look what I found on the web - hornpipe sheet music PLUS the audio of hornpipe - "Downfall of the Ginn" plus Henry Purcell's "Rondeau from Abdelazer." Just click on the blue "Play" line to listen.

http://members.aol.com/DrAJDoyle/music/horn03.html

Here's Henry Purcell's "Hornpipe in E Minor." Scroll down and click on #6 to listen:

http://www.amazon.com/Henry-Purcell-Bowrs-Brent-Wissick/dp/B0000049NU

Here's a place where you can listen to "Sailor's Hornpipe." I'll bet you all recognize it. Just scroll down song #4 on the Track list and click on it.

http://btobmusic.barnesandnoble.com/search/mediaplayer.asp?ean=628261003723&disc=1&track=4

OOOOOH!!! I lisened to all, Thanks Loved them.

The observer here

Loved them. I've known the Sailors hornpipe all my life and never knew what it was. If they'd played it more often on the Bounty, maybe they wouldn't have been a mutiny.

JoanK, LOL,

Will try -- think I need a course in speed reading. Having trouble keeping up with A Fine Balance.

Avast, Kidsal, and ahoy! Climb aboard and join us! I feel the same way about the speed reading. Ever since I had to get biphocals (sp?)(progressives), I've been such a slow reader. I was told that with the progressive lenses, you have to read by moving your eyes left to right, and that seems to be what I have to do. It certainly slows down one's reading.

Good luck with reading the Bligh narrative. It's not a long book. Glad you can join us!

Marni

I found a video of the sailor's hornpipe. It looks a lot like my friend's Irish step dancing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1-hNjYCJws0&search=Highland%20Hornpipe

I found this out about the hornpipe dancing on the site below:

"Rennaissance courtiers attributed several dances as being performed to the rustic instument known as the hornpipe - an insturment of great antiquity consisting of a single reed pipe with a cow horn bell (sometimes with 2 parallel pipes) At various times it meant a jig, a reel or even a country dance. Country dances were often stepped to the distinctive 3/2 syncopated hornpipe tunes and these are sometimes called "maggots" from the Italian maggioletta meaining a whim or delight. Later in the mid 18th century the 4/4 or 2/4 common time hornpipe appeared, now refered to as the "Jacky Tar". This Irish, Scottish or English solo dance is a very old Celtic solo dance that is very much based on the sailor's abilities during the dancing with the sailors originally performing it with folded arms. The steps are clearly shipwise such as hauling in the anchor, climbing or rigging ropes etc. The Sailor's Hornpipe was most popular during the 16th to 18th Centuries but the original (Hornpipe) goes much farther back and was originally done by men only."

http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Teachers/folkAlanJabbour.html

I couldn't help it...had to get out my fiddle and play along!

I wonder if I can just sit next to Ginger and come for the ride. Promise I will be quiet, of course, unless there is a jig, reel, strathspey or hornpipe happening. Then, there's no tellin' what I might do because I know all the dances as well.

Hey Prancer I am the quite one in here but your on there good list, come sit next to me and we will do the jig when they play it:).

Ginger

Love to!! Speaking of doing jigs...that's exactly how - I got the name "Prancer" - constantly dancing around. I can hear the adults yet "Will you STOP that prancing!"

Ahoy, Prancer! Come aboard! We absolutely HAVE to have a fiddler!! I should have thought of it before!! Lots of dancing going on aboard ship. We need our exercise!

I figured your name had something to do with Christmas. Thanks for explaining!

Marni

Ahoy, Cap'n Marnie ~ How terrific! The hornpipe dancers were amazing!

Now I must admit I have no idea how to find things on YouTube.

Thanks Marni for the welcome. I'm sure Ginger will keep me in line! ( I might wear my kilt)

Ho, Midshipman Mippy: I've never seen You Tube before. I was searching for a video of a sailor's hornpipe - it took me quite awhile to find one - and there it was.

Prancer: Do you really have a kilt? I'm curious because I just found out last year that my family has a plaid. I'm a wee bit Scottish (Ferguson).

If you have started reading Bligh's The Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty, you've noticed how Bligh so very frequently gives the ship's position. For example, Bligh describes the position of 2 rocks on northern Tenerife, in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic, as latitude 28¡ 44' N and longitude 16¡ 5' W. Personally, not knowing anything about nautical reckoning, I found this to be extremely distracting until I did a couple of things:

- I looked up information about longitude and latitude so I wasn't at a total loss as to what Bligh was talking about.

- I got out my Atlas and hunted for the places Bligh referred to, searching for the latitude and longitude he stated.

- I often glossed over the directions unless it seemed that I needed to know more about the position Bligh was pointing out. I didn't want to get bogged down in his directions.

Here's some information about latitude and longitude that may help a bit:

Latitude gives the location of a place on Earth north or south of the Equator. It is expressed in degrees, minutes, and seconds. Each degree of latitude is sub-divided into 60 minutes. One minute of latitude can be further divided into 60 seconds. One minute of latitude is one nautical mile, defined exactly as 1852 metres.

Longitude is also expressed in degrees, minutes, and seconds, and whether East or West or Greenwich, England.

Explanation of Bligh's example stated above: The position of 2 rocks on northern Tenerife, in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic, latitude 28¡ 44' N (meaning: 28 degrees, 44 minutes North of the equator), and longitude 16¡ 5' W (meaning: 16 degrees, 5 minutes West of Greenwich). You can find this position in an Atlas because some lines of latitude and longitude are drawn giving the degrees. Here's Tenerife on an atlas:

http://encarta.msn.com/map_701517001/Tenerife.html

More about latitude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude

More about longitude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude

Marni

Marni0308

Yes, I have a kilt. My ancestors are from Scotland and Ireland and they settled in Nova Scotia very close to Cape Breton, so I have lots of Celtic influence.

Here's a place to look at your tartan. click here

Hope this link works.

When I got to the longitude/latitude measurement of the position of the rocks, I more or less skipped over it. I think its enough to be able to say the ship was within sight of them, and of the church tower also, I think. However, reading that made me think that a sea captain needs to be a precise and detailed man. ~JudyS

Yup, that's our plaid. It worked. Thanks, Prancer!

Don't get chilly with your kilt on!

Judy: I just added a link to an atlas on that longitude/latitude post #123 I think it was.

You're doing the same thing I did for the most part - basically skipping over most of Bligh's positionings. Just once in awhile I'd want to look more carefully at them. And yes, you hit the nail on the head. A captain would really have to know how to determine his bearings.

I just wanted to be sure no one is getting too hung up on all of the nautical bearings in Bligh's account.

Marni

Here's an interesting and brief animation showing how sailors navigated down through time. Just click on the "Launch the Animation" button to begin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/launch_ani_navigation.shtml

marni, Thank you that was very interesting.

Yes, that was very interesting, and shows the sort of problems the sailors faced. I haven't started the book yet, but I'm guessing that anyone who wants to can just skim the navigation bits and take Bligh's word for his position.

I could wish that the presentation had not said the Pole Star is part of the Great Bear, though. It isn't; it's part of the Little Bear.

Marnie ~ That link was outstanding! Thanks!

Pat H - Good for you for noticing that about the error in the BBC animation on navigation. I looked at it again. They say in the wording that the Pole Star (North Star) is part of the "Great Bear" but in the picture they show it in "Ursa Minor." The North Pole is in the Small Bear, or Little Dipper.

I hope they didn't make any other errors.

Marni, what a very interesting link. I'm surprised to have learned so much from such a simple presentation. For instance, who could have imagined how important an accurate watch would be in finding one's way across the sea. ~JudyS

The National Maritime Museum and Greenwich Royal Observatory have a wonderful website. Here's some info:

"The foundation of the Royal Observatory, in 1675, was expressly to discover a method for finding longitude, and this astronomical research required the use of very accurate clocks. As it turned out, the solution to the longitude problem, found in the 18th century, proved to be a highly accurate portable clock, later to be termed a Marine Chronometer. The Observatory then took on the role of testing and issuing these instruments to the Royal Navy. Owing to the rapidly developing railway and electric telegraph systems in 19th century Britain, the need for an accurate and comprehensive distribution of Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) for the nation became a priority for the Observatory. Thus, the fundamental horological connection with maritime studies can be summarised as Precision Timekeeping."

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/

This museum/observatory has a large online exhibit of their collection. The museum has about 400 chronometers and other nautical time pieces.

Here's a picture and info about chronometer H1, "the first experimental marine timekeeper made by John Harrison in Barrow-on-Humber between 1730 and 1735 as a first step towards solving the longitude problem and winning the great £20,000 prize offered by the British Government. Now known as 'H1', the timekeeper is unaffected by the motion of a ship owing to its two interconnected swinging balances. It compensates for changes in temperature and thanks to extensive anti-friction devices, runs without any lubrication. It was the first relatively successful marine timekeeper of any kind and was the toast of London when Harrison unveiled it in 1735. It is one of the great milestones in clock-making history."

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=ZAA0034

Here's a picture and info about chronometer H4 which won the £20,000 prize. It was completed by John Harrison in 1759.

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/explore/object.cfm?ID=ZAA0037

Captain Cook used a copy of H4 that was made by Kendall and called K1:

K1 Chronometer

Those of you who participated in the Ambrose "Undaunted Courage" discussion about the Lewis and Clark expedition may remember that Lewis brought along a chronometer on the journey to help him and Clark determine their position and chart maps. The chronometer, purchased for $250 from Philadelphia clockmaker Thomas Parker, was the most expensive item bought for the journey. The chronometer lost 14 seconds per day. Imagine how you'd have to figure that out and make up for lost time in order to create accurate maps.

Here's a picture of a chronometer like the one Lewis purchased. You can enlarge it by clicking on it. I saw a chronometer very much like it in a nautical museum in New Bedford recently. It was screwed on 2 sides inside a mahogany box and hung suspended from the box so it could sway freely and stay stable despite motion of a ship.

http://www.l3-lewisandclark.com/ShowOneObject.asp?SiteID=29&ObjectID=63

Hi everyone ...I'm just back from holiday and catching up with all the posts.

The story of John Harrison and his 40 year quest to build the perfect timekeeping piece is told in Longitude by Dava Sobel. It's a very interesting read and Sobel explains a lot about the problems of navigation before Harrison's breakthough - together with a brief outline of astronomy, navigation and clockmaking. She combines all this with politics, intrigue, feuding clockmakers and sheer skullduggery.

Gumtree: Longitude sounds excellent. This Spring I read Dava Sobel's Galileo's Daughter and it was wonderful.

I'm off to Newport, Rhode Island, tomorrow for the weekend - a mini vacation and a friend's wedding. I hope to have a chance to go to the Newport history museum while we're there. I'll check in Sunday evening when we get back.

Marni

Marni - Ive had Galileo's Daughter on the shelf for a few years but haven't read it yet...soon maybe. Enjoy your break away.

Marni, I hope you are having a really grand time. You work very hard for us here in any discussion. I can tell you do it with fun and love. It's not taken for granted.

Thanks, Gumtree and Hats. We're back from Newport and we had a terrific time. The wedding was in the beautiful town of Narragansett right on Narragansett Bay just across from Newport and the reception was on the island of Jamestown which is between Narragansett and Newport. The weather was gorgeous, sunny and crisp, and we did a lot of hiking in a national wildlife preserve on the ocean and in a bird sanctuary nearby. Fun weekend!

Rhode Island is a very beautiful state. I knew almost nothing about Rhode Island even though I live next door in Connecticut. I've been reading about RI on the internet and found out some interesting RI "firsts":

Rhode Island enacted the first law prohibiting slavery in North America on May 18, 1652.

The first Baptist Church in America was founded in Providence, Rhode Island in 1671.

Anne Franklin of the Newport Mercury was the first woman newspaper editor in America (Aug. 22, 1762)

The first Synagogue in America was founded in Newport, Rhode Island in 1763.

The first armed act of rebellion in America against the British Crown was the boarding and burning of the Revenue Schooner Gaspee in Narragansett Bay on June 10, 1772.

The idea of a Continental Congress was first proposed at a town meeting in Providence, Rhode Island on May 17, 1774. Rhode Island elected the first delegates (Stephen Hopkins and Samuel Ward) to the Continental Congress on June 15, 1774.

The Rhode Island General Assembly created the first standing army in the colonies (1,500 men) on April 22, 1775.

On June 15, 1775, the first naval engagement of the Revolution occurred between a Colonial Sloop commanded by Capt. Abraham Whipple and an armed tender of the British Frigate Rose. The tender was chased aground and captured. Later in June, the General Assembly created the first American Navy when it commissioned the Sloops Katy and Washington, armed with 24 guns and commanded by Abraham Whipple, who was promoted to Commodore.

Rhode Island was the first Colony to declare independence from Britain on May 4, 1776.

Pelham Street in Newport was the first in America to be illuminated by gaslight in 1806.

The first strike in the United States in which women participated occurred in Pawtucket, Rhode Island in 1824.

Watch Hill, Rhode Island has the nationÕs oldest carousel that has been in continuous operation (1850).

The motion picture machine (a machine showing animated pictures) was patented in Providence on April 23, 1867.

The first lunch wagon in America was introduced in Providence in 1872.

The first nine hole golf course in America was completed in Newport in 1890.

The first state health laboratory was established in Providence on Sept. 1, 1894.

The Rhode Island State House was the first building with an all-marble dome to be built in the United States (1895-1901).

The first automobile race on a track was held in Cranston, Rhode Island on Sept. 7, 1896.

The first automobile parade was held in Newport, Rhode Island on Sept. 7, 1899.

More interesting information about Rhode Island: http://www.sec.state.ri.us/library/riinfo/riinfo/knowrhode

Marni

Avast, all sailors and readers!
I just returned from the SeniorNet conference!
There's a post in the Book Nook, so I won't repeat here. But email me if you want to hear any specific details! (please put SeniorNet in the title line).
Ahoy, mates!

Ahoy, Midshipman Mippy! Sounds like you guys had a blast! Welcome back!

Pat H: Someone mentioned in the Book Nook that you had an accident. Are you OK?

I'm fine; it won't get me out of standing my watch.

Whew!

Are we almost ready to make sail, oh Cap'n? Just one more week?

Ahoy, Midshipman Mippy! I just saw your photo, Pat H's, and JoanK's photo in the Latin lounge! That was fun! Very neat! You all look like you are having such a great time! It's wonderful being able to see faces of friends here on this site!!

Yes, we're setting sail in one week - next Wednesday, Nov. 1. I'm betting our weather will be fair and calm.

Everyone: Stow your gear and meet us aboard in one week with books in hand! You're all invited to the captain's table. We can drink grog, Madeira, or coffee, munch on hard tack, and talk about the HMS Bounty. We'll begin with the first 5 chapters.

Huzzah!!!

Take a look at this link; if hardtack breaks teeth someone
else can have my share!

hard tack

I have enough broken teeth as it is -- I don't need any more.

I vote for madiera and some kind of cheese.

What about all the puddings that Jack Aubrey ate?

Sounds unappetizing--maybe I can get my hard tack to take a walk away from me.

Mippy: I love that article about hardtack! Can you just see those weevils, Pat H??!! When I read about the weevils in the O'Brian books, I pictured some sort of beetle, but wasn't sure what it was exactly. I'm going to check. Be right back.....

Ahah! Found an article in Wikipedia. A weevil IS a beetle. Hey, the weevil in the picture looks very familiar. I've seen weevils! I wonder if our hardtack (ship biscuit) weevils are the wheat weevils mentioned here?....No, the ship "weevils" aren't even really weevils, according to this! This article says they are "Stegobium paniceum (Anobiidae)."

Here's info/picture of weevils: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weevil

Here's info/picture about hardtack "weevils" provided by The Historical Maritime Society, in London, I believe. It says, "It would appear that any small beetles at the time [on ships] were called 'weevils' and all large ones 'cockroaches'. The basic pest found in ships biscuit is incorrectly termed the 'weevil'. In fact it is not a true weevil but a relative of woodworm called the 'Bread Beetle' - Stegobium paniceum.:

"The issue is as to when they changed from a small nuisance into an infestation that resulted in condemned food. The bread room of a ship was especially designed and located to keep bread cool and dry and this gives us a clue to those circumstances when problems could arise. The rate of reproduction and lifecycle of storage pests considerably increases with humidity and temperature. Hard tack was thrice baked to completely dry it out and hence preserve it (for up to five years by the victualling board standard). The baking would also make it extremely hard for any insects to penetrate the grains to the softer centre on which they feed. Dampness makes the bread soft again. So if bread gets damp in hot climates then any insects present will proliferate very quickly."

http://www.hms.org.uk/nelsonsnavymaggot.htm

Ick! Large white maggots in hardtack, too!

Master and Commander fans: Remember Jack Aubrey getting such a chuckle from the joke about "the lesser of two weevils"?

JoanK: I'm liking your idea about cheese and madeira more and more. How about some Spanish manchego cheese that a few of us tried during the Don Quixote discussion? It is delicious!

Oh, I'm getting excited! This Historical Maritime Society article links us to a fabulous page called "Nelson and His Navy" [about Admiral Horatio Nelson]. It has terrific links to articles that explain things such as "the Duties of the Master" and "the duties of the Surgeon" - even "Cheese and the Royal Navy"!

Hmmmmm. According to this cheese article, we should be eating Cheshire or Gloucester cheese. "The Navy had always issued Suffolk Cheese, a thin, hard and durable variety, but practically inedible. There were frequent complaints against it, and in 1758 the decision was taken to switch to Cheshire and Gloucester Cheese, even though they were considerably more expensive and probably did not keep so well."

http://www.hms.org.uk/nelsonsnavymain.htm

AAKKK! I thought I was all set -- I threw Bligh into my suitcase for my trip to see my grandkids, figuring I could get most of it read on the five hour plane trip. When I pulled it out, it wasn't Bligh at all. but another book that looks a lot like it.

My SIL says he owns the book, if he can find it. If not, I'll be behind til I get back on the fifth.

Meanwhile, SIL (a history buff) also says there is an account by the mutineers. Did you know that? Seems a whaler visited the island 18 years later. Only one mutineer was still alive, but he talked.

JoanK, Only one mutineer was still alive, but he talked. You have sparked my interest but won't be on the list to join you all but will sure watch the post more carefully Thank you.

MARNI, I've encountered a problem. I knew from a catalaog check that my library had a copy of Mutiny on the Bounty by William Bligh, so I hadn't worried about that. Yesterday I went to check it out, and discovered the book was actually a fictionized version rewritten for juveniles.

The library did a check of the 'libraries' database for me, and we found the book written by Wm. Bligh was only available at University libraries. They have put in a request for me, and hopefully one of the Universities will make their copy available. That, however, may be soon, or it may be six weeks!

Where, O where, did you and the rest of the prospective participants find this book?

Babi

BaBi and JoanK: Don't worry about not having the book immediately. If you can stand it, you can read it online. Click on the link above in our Heading where it says "ONLINE VERSION OF THE BOOK."

BaBi: I got my book on Amazon. It's paperback entitled "The mutiny on Board HMS Bounty," written by William Bligh, published by The Narrative Press, copyright 2003.

ISBN: 1-58976-228-2

Golly, I hope you both can get the book. Try the online version to see if you can read it there meanwhile.

Marni

There is an interesting sounding program on the History Channel tonight at 8:00 p.m. EST. It's the narrative of a true story of a ship's crew that was shipwrecked in 1815 off the coast of Africa. They were captured and enslaved by Arabs and eventually freed.

"Skeletons on the Sahara"

Here's info about the show: "In 1815, a Connecticut merchant ship is run aground off the west coast of Africa. Captured by Arab nomads, Captain James Riley and his crew are sold into brutal slavery and marched across the Sahara Desert, where skin boils, lips blacken and men shrivel to less than 90 pounds. Along the way the Americans will encounter everything that could possibly test them, but Riley and his men will also discover ancient cities, secret oases and a culture largely unknown to the modern world. We'll take viewers inside the adventure, with realistic recreations shot on location and compelling interviews with descendants of Riley, his crew and the Arabs who held them captive. Includes expert commentary from Dean King, author of the bestselling book of the same name."

I believe it repeats at 12:00 a.m. tomorrow. It lasts 2 hours.

The bookstores here only had a version which was a part of Bligh's account plus some of the trial procedings, plus some other stuff, and I had to order the book from Amazon. Border's had filed it under "Transportation".

Transportation?! Interesting! I tried to find it at first at Barnes & Noble online and they didn't have it at all that I could see.

I read Skeletons on the Sahara -- an extremely interesting look into desert life. Riley and his men were treated as slaves and the women were the most violent toward them. Some of the crew died, others were left behind as slaves with tribes, Riley and another man were purchased by the British embassy and returned to the U.S.

Tomorrow I have jury duty, so I'm glad we are not starting our discussion on Monday.
That reminds me of some parts late in the Patrick O'Brien series.

Wasn't Cap't Jack a court official because of his land-owner status?
Was he a justice of the peace?
And didn't you have to be a land-owner to serve on an English jury.
Also, needless to say, in those years women did not serve or vote.

Jury duty, Mippy! I wonder if you'll be picked for a jury. I don't recall that about Jack Aubrey. I think I'm going to have read the series again.

Here's a wonderful BBC site with information about sailing in the Pacific before Captain Cook's voyages. You can see the whole article rather than just one page at a time by scrolling down to "Print entire article." Click it to show whole article. You don't have to print it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/cook_pacific_01.shtml

Then to read some terrific articles about Cook's voyages, click on the articles listed in the right-hand column. There's also information about Sir Joseph Banks, Bligh's patron.

Marni

I thought this info in the article was very important:

How advances in ship design helped exploration

"Ships of the 16th century were 'square rigged', like Magellan's, with high sides for their size. The high wind resistance, especially of those towering sides, made the ships ungainly and only really able to sail well with the wind behind them. A major step forward in ship design happened in the early 18th century, when the high sides began to be cut down, decreasing wind resistance and giving a vastly improved sailing performance.

'Technological advances had an enormous impact on exploration in the Pacific in the 18th century...'

Neither did the earlier ships have the triangular sails at the front that are now so familiar on modern sailing boats. These foresails, invented about 50 years before the Cook voyages, improved manoeuvrability and enabled ships to sail more effectively into the wind. The impact that these technological advances had on exploration in the Pacific in the 18th century was enormous - it meant that ships could go where they wanted rather than where the winds and currents took them."

How improvements in navigation helped exploration

"Captain Cook's voyages to the Pacific coincided with important scientific advances that made navigating a ship to a known point, and more importantly finding the way back again, a more reliable business. Up to that point, navigation had been a chancy affair, relying heavily on what navigators themselves called the three 'Ls': lead, lookout and latitude.

We determine geographical position through latitude and longitude, which are imaginary lines of measurement drawn around the world from east to west and from north to south. A position anywhere in the world can be plotted at the intersection of its latitude and longitude.

That was the theory. Navigators could work out a ship's latitude with reasonable accuracy by measuring the distance of the sun or a star above the horizon with a backstaff or quadrant. Longitude was more difficult. A line of longitude is a measurement of time, and in order to plot where a ship was on that line, a navigator had to be able to measure the distance between the local time and the time at the ship's point of departure from a known meridian. It proved impossible at sea to make the calculations with the necessary accuracy, and as a result establishing a position depended on Dead Reckoning - knowing your latitude and compass course and calculating the effect of the wind and currents on the ship. Errors of hundreds if not thousands of miles were common, and many lands were 'discovered' by early European navigators - only to be effectively lost again.

John Harrison's famous chronometer, H4, built in 1759 after years of experimentation, was the first marine timekeeper accurate enough to be used with confidence when plotting longitude at sea. But it was only one of several scientific advances that made navigation safer and more reliable in the 18th century, and made possible the systematic exploration of the world's oceans and lands that had been heralded by the Cook voyages."

Don't miss the BBC article about Life in the British Navy. It includes information about life at sea and combatting scurvy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/life_at_sea_01.shtml

Great links. I've so far resisted reading the book online, but am keeping my hand in by rewatching "Master and Commandar" and reading a book called "Nathanial's Nutmeg" about the entry of Britain and Holland into the spice trade, about 170 years before Bligh. Very interesting.

Surprisingly, according to this book, mutinies were not that uncommon. Perhaps that was no longer true when Bligh sailed. But I had forgotten that many of the sailors were "pressed", and were there against there will. Not so surprising if they rebelled.

The British Navy ships had Marines (soldiers) on board. They were used as fighters in boarding parties, but one of their functions was to prevent mutinies.

I picked up the Bligh book at my library today just in time to start. It's a lovely Large Print edition, very easy on the eyes with a clear, black, bold print. Lucky me!

JoanK: I love the movie "Master and Commander"! One of my favorites. I bought it, too, and have watched it 5 times already. My husband thinks I'm nuts!

I am surprised to hear that about mutinies being common. We'll have to discuss what was so uncommon about the mutiny on the Bounty. Let's all consider that. What was it about the story of the Bounty that made it so notorious? (Let's wait til we officially begin our book discussion, though, before we get into this. Yay! Almost time!)

Gumtree: I'm so glad you found the book!

Pat H: That's really important in Bligh's narrative!!! Please bring that up again later this week when we begin our book discussion!!!!

Tonight on Public TV is a program about the history of Yellow Fever. My newspaper said it was on at 9:00 p.m. EST and I put a reminder out for myself. But I just noticed that the time has changed to 10:00 p.m. EST on my online TV Guide. It says that a history of influenza is on at 9:00. So, the yellow fever history is on at either 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. EST.

Yellow Fever was one of the diseases that killed large numbers of the British Navy as they ventured out more around the world. Malaria was another of the endemic diseases they encountered that killed so many ships' crew and soldiers and explorers.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN, EVERYONE!

Marni

Great graphic! I'm looking forward to trick-or-treating with my grandkids. I love holloween.

My book finally came yesterday, I've read the first 5 chapters, and am eager to weigh anchor tomorrow. I won't say smooth sailing, since Bligh certainly didn't have it.

Happy Halloween, to all! I've given away a lot of candy this evening!

Well, Capt'n Marni, I'll be on the virtual ship
But not, no, not in posts, as Jury Duty continues for another day.
At least it's a civil, not criminal case.

Perhaps at the end of our discussion we can talk about what the British navy did when captains lost their ships. However, Bligh was not regular Navy, so procedures were possibly different.
I think a court martial occurred in the regular British navy, right?
That detail is not in this book, by the way, in case this post tempts anyone to look at the end. We'll have to use other sources, which is fun.

JoanK: Are you on your vacation now? Are you in California with your grandchildren? I know you said you'd be away for the first week of our discussion. I hope you have chances to peek in and join us even though you don't have your book.

PatH: That's great news about your book!

Mippy: I hope your jury duty case is an interesting one and not too long. I had visions of you getting sequestered in a motel with the other jury members during a long murder trial! I'm going to raise your question about Bligh in my first post to begin our discussion.

Our book discussion is now open for William Bligh's The Mutiny on Board HMS Bounty. Come aboard, stow your gear, and join us in a gill of grog and some tasty salt pork, hardtack, and sauerkraut as we talk about Captain's Bligh's version of the voyage and mutiny of the Bounty. We even have a steaming Spotted Dog (pudding) for dessert!

If you don't yet have your book, it is available online from a link in our Header. Our Schedule is there, too; we are covering the first five chapters this week. Check out the links to Supplemental Information.

We have an exciting group here with lots of pertinent information. Kleo has botanical information for us about breadfruit. Gumtree, who lives in Australia, knows about William Bligh's experience there as governor. Bodie lives on the Isle of Man where Bligh was married and where Fletcher Christian and Midshipman Heywood lived. Many of us are fans of popular novels about the British Navy such as the Patrick O'Brian Aubrey/Maturin series.

"Midshipman" Mippy and JoanK are not with us temporarily - Mippy is on jury duty and JoanK is on vacation. We look forward to their return!

Take a look at this week's set of Questions to Consider. Mippy raised an interesting question for us to consider as we move forward: What did the British navy do when captains lost their ships?....Bligh was not "regular Navy," so procedures were possibly different......"I think a court martial occurred in the regular British navy, right?" Mippy: I've added your question to our growing list of questions to consider during our last week. But anyone can jump in to discuss it at any time.

Bligh's narrative is specifically about the Bounty's voyage, the mutiny, and the harrowing voyage in the launch after the mutiny occurred. It is all his own version of what happened. There was a lot more to the story. Please feel free to provide supplemental information to add to our knowledge. I'll refer once in awhile to a book I just finished - The Bounty: The True Story of the Mutiny on the Bounty by Caroline Alexander, a wonderful well-documented follow-up to Bligh's story.

So, let's weigh anchor. I lift my glass of grog to you with a hearty "HUZZAH!"

Marni

Well Marni, here I am but certainly not as an expert on Bligh in Aust. I got the book a couple of days ago and have only just looked into it having a browse which is my usual custom with a book.

I'm very impressed with the links in the heading - it will take me some time to check them all out - thanks for making them available - I've no doubt everyone will benefit from them.

Just a quickie about Captain Cook's Endeavour. A replica was built right here at Fremantle Harbour in 1980s. A beautiful job - one could visit the boatbuilder's during construction and view the progress - we went several times - after launching and sea trials etc it eventually sailed back to England to be shown off. When it came back again it had lost all its gloss and perhaps looked a bit more authentic.- a tough sea-going vessel but oh, so small. I believe the replica is now in Sydney as a tourist attraction.

I saw Mippy's post about Bligh not being in the Regular Navy and her query on the court martial or lack of it.

My impression is that Bligh was Regular Navy and had been from the beginning of his career as Ship's Boy right through to the end. He did however transfer from Royal Navy to the Merchant Navy for a couple of years just before he took command of the Bounty. I believe this was due to the Royal Navy standing men down or reducing them to half pay - which was their usual practice when there was no war to be fought, or the Royal coffers were low. Bligh returned to active service to take command of the Bounty. Any commanding officer who lost his ship would have to account for the circumstances.

Please set me straight if this is all wrong.

I found an intriguing bit in the opening "Advertisement" for the book.

"and, being drawn up in a hasty manner, it required many corrections. Some circumstances likewise were omitted"

It appears this final version of Captain Bligh's story contains many 'corrections' and some 'circumstances' that were previously omitted. His explanation is reasonable. I'll be curious, tho', to see whether his story appears to have been altered or padded to bolster his own position and defend his actions.

Babi

Gumtree, you are absolutely correct. In a timetable in one of Marni's links, it says that Bligh was in the Merchant Service from 1783-1787, and returned to Royal Navy active service in 1787. The Bounty had been a commercial vessel, but was Commissioned Jun. 8, 1787, and Bligh was made her Commanding Lieutenant Aug. 16, 1787.

A court martial was automatic whenever a Royal Navy ship was lost, whether or not there was any suspicion of wrongdoing or incompetence.

Our questions will be posted in the Header shortly. I'll post them here for now so you have a chance to think about them. Here goes....

1. Regarding the ÒAuthorÕs AdvertisementÓ in the bookÕs beginning: Why and for whom was William Bligh "advertising" this account?

2. What was the mission of HMS Bounty? Whose plan was followed in preparation for the voyage?

3. Describe HMS Bounty. Was there anything unusual in how the ship was fitted out? Describe the CaptainÕs quarters. Did Bligh have a role in fitting out the ship?

4. Describe the Bounty's crew. Were any additional passengers aboard? Who kept the key to the arms? How competent was the surgeon? Were important crew missing?

5. What route was the Bounty to take to Otaheite (Tahiti) in the Society Islands and when was she to leave England? How long was she to be gone? Why didnÕt she leave as scheduled and what problem did this create?

6. What sort of ÒmischiefÓ and suffering did storms create for the Bounty and her crew?

7. Regarding Captain BlighÕs management of his ship: How did he divide the shipÕs watches? How did he manage food and water? When and why did he order men to be flogged? What seemed to motivate the captain the most in the decisions he made? What is your impression of him as captain of a ship? Did he have skills important in a good captain? Faults?

8. Describe some of the crewÕs tasks. Was their life at sea treacherous?

9. Why didnÕt Captain Bligh sail to Otaheite by way of Cape Horn? What effect did route via the Cape of Good Hope have on the length of the voyage?

10. Why did Captain Bligh have every person aboard examined by the surgeon when the Bounty reached Otaheite?

11. How did the natives on Otaheite differ, in BlighÕs narrative, from the natives in Van DiemenÕs Land? Why did Bligh give his men ÒparticularÓ directions not to reveal the cause of Captain CookÕs death to the people of Otaheite?

12. Describe BlighÕs narrative style. What does he focus on? Do you think he leaves anything important out? Do you think his style changes when he describes the BountyÕs visits to land?

Gumtree: That must have been fascinating to see the Endeavor. I didn't realize til recently how very important an explorer and navigator Captain Cook had been. He went on 3 very important voyages of discovery, was a brilliant navigator, and created charts/maps for those who followed him. Much of the world's oceans were unknown to most men of his time. He and his crew were extraordinarily brave and daring. It was interesting to read in the BBC links about how the change in ship design enabled Cook and others to venture farther and faster in the age when the British came to "rule the seas."

William Bligh sailed with Captain Cook on Cook's 3rd and last voyage, the voyage when he was killed by natives in Hawaii. Imagine seeing that event - your captain being stoned to death in the distant Pacific! Cook had taken Bligh under his wing and taught him much of what he knew about navigation and charting maps. Bligh became an expert himself as he shows us in our book.

Gumtree: I read the same thing - that Bligh was regular Navy as captain of the Bounty. He was a commissioned lieutenant with acting role as captain at the point of our story.

I read something interesting about Bligh's commission in The Bounty by Alexander - Bligh had been promised a promotion to the position of Post Captain. He had expected that when he took on the job on the Bounty. But it didn't happen and Bligh was extremely disappointed because he had taken a cut in pay to do the job. As Post Captain he would have had a much higher salary, even on half-pay during peacetime.

Marni

BaBi: What an interesting line you pointed out in the "Advertisement." It sounds like he meant to clarify the way he described navigating. (He is really into that!) And it sounds like he wanted to add more detail. I thought it was interesting how his story was published for the public.

PatH: Thanks for the clarification about Bligh's commissions. I found that interesting about how Bligh worked in the Merchant Marine during peacetime. When the Navy wasn't at war, often the seamen lost their jobs. My understanding is that commissioned officers maintained their positions, but went on half pay. Considering that many made very small salaries in the Navy to begin, half pay would have been difficult for raising a family. Bligh had been fortunate to be able to find a good-paying position in the Merchant Marine.

He seems to have been a respected officer.

Here's an illustration called "The Death of Captain Cook" by Francesco Bartolozzi and William Byrne after a drawing by John Webber.

http://www.library.ucla.edu/special/images/cookscans/5600.jpg

PatW: Thanks for our questions!!

Marni, that's a really important point about Post Captain. The date of this appointment determined your place on the seniority list for promotions. From this point on, promotions went in order of the list, although assignments could be more or less desirable. So when you got on the list would determine, for instance, your chance of becoming an Admiral. It would be a huge disappointment not to get such an appointment, once promised.

I found a "simplified" explanation of the various ranks of commissioned and non-commissioned officers in the British Navy. It seems that non-commissioned officers did not receive the half pay that commissioned officers received when not employed on ship.

"Captain" Bligh was actually a lieutenant (commissioned officer) when he commanded the Bounty.

http://www.kipar.org/piratical-resources/british-navy-ranks.html

Pat H: Didn't an officer's rank determine how much of a percent he received of the prize money paid to the men when they captured an enemy ship during wartime?

Yes, prize money was divided according to rank, and everybody got something, down to the most junior crew. I think Bligh would have gotten the same percentage commanding the ship as a lieutenant or a post captain. I doubt this was important, since the ship was rather lightly armed, not set up for capturing prizes, and that wasn't it's mission.

Question 3: Bounty was a smallish ship. The most unusual thing of her fitting out was the fact that a large area that would normally be the Captain's turf was turned over to a sort of greenhouse, leaving the Captain with small areas for sleeping and dining. Bligh himself drastically reduced the amount of ballast and shortened the masts, which shows his concern for the theory of sailing. I have no idea whether these were good or bad decisions, but since the ship didn't turn turtle or have handling problems, I guess they weren't stupid ones.

She was armed, but more lightly than a ship that was going to do serious battle.

I found this an Interesting read, particularly Chapter 2 with its almost day-to-day account of the voyage from England to Cape Horn and the unsuccessful attempt to reach the Pacific around the Horn. I thought it interesting how the Bounty was able to replenish its fresh water supply by catching rain water. Also in the South Atlantic there were several accounts of catching fish and small sea mammals. I noted also they still had a live hog on which they dined as they began the attempt to round the horn. I think Bligh had anticipated the impossibility of rounding the horn as his original orders required. He had applied for and received permission to use his judgment to go the other way around the Cape of Good Hope should the Horn transit prove impossible. This was the course he was forced to follow.

I want to say right at the start that I am a Bligh partisan. I deplore the libelous fiction of modern opportunistic authors such as the Northrop and Hall team that made him out a sadistic madman. He was very much an 18th Century navigator; he was very much Royal Navy officer later commanding a frigates of the line at the Battle of Copenhagen where he earned the praise of Admiral Nelson

The Mission of the Bounty was to obtain breadfruit plants from the South Pacific for introduction int the British West Indies. Planters from these Islands, inspired the expedition hoping the breadfruit would prove a cheap nutritious food to feed black Afro slaves working the West Indies plantations, Later after BlighÕs second voyage succeeded in introducing the fruit, the Slaves found they didnÕt like it and refused to eat it. Apparently the breadfruit experiment in the end was a failure.

Thanks for the info about the ship, Pat H. The Bounty was a very small ship. Bligh gave us some of her statistics on page 1. Much of the room on the ship was fitted out to transport breadfruit plants from the Society Islands in the Pacific to the West Indies. An attempt would be made to grow them in the British West Indies.

Bligh doesn't mention it, but the purpose was to find a cheaper way to feed the slaves on British plantations in the West Indies. Sir Joseph Banks, mentioned by Bligh in the first paragraph, coordinated the mission.

The entire ship was refitted to carry the breadfruit plants safely. They needed light, water, protection from the saltwater and elements, etc. Most of all, they needed room. They had to be stored. The captain's facilities with the large skylights was the best storage place.

Did you notice the deck was covered with lead and pipes were installed for draining and reclaiming plant water?

Interesting to hear about this type of task that the British Navy was called upon to tackle - transporting plants from one location on the globe to a far distant spot.

Here's a picture of a side view of the Bounty, refitted to hold the breadfruit plants. On the left side you can see what may be the false floor created to hold garden pots:

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/maritime/gallery/images/bounty-gallshipdrawing-lg.jpg

Here's a portrait of Sir Joseph Banks, wealthy natural history and botany enthusiast and influential patron of the Bounty's breadfruit mission, painted by Benjamin West in 1771:

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/maritime/gallery/images/bounty-galljosephbanks-lg.jpg

Here's a painting of Lt. William Bligh painted by John Webber in 1775:

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/maritime/gallery/images/bounty-gallwilliambligh-lg.jpg

Here's a painting of the breadfruit plant {Artocarpus incisa} c. 1769, by Sydeney Parkinson.

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/maritime/gallery/images/bounty-gallbreadfruit-lg.jpg

Harold, welcome! We were posting at the same time. All that happened and the experiment was a failure!

Wasn't that something about what the Bounty had to go through trying to get around Cape Horn! I think I read somewhere that they had to toss most of the live animals (their fresh meat) overboard during the terrible storms because the animals were thrown around and got in the way.

Harold, thanks for the info on slaves refusing to eat breadfruit. I wonder what the alternative was? Something dirt cheap and nasty, no doubt.

Harold, I think that for me, one of the pleasures of this discussion will be deciding what I think of Bligh. I doubt that "sadistic madman" will be the answer. For a start, I can see that he was concerned for the physical well-being of his crew and was not much given to brutal punishments like flogging. My first guess is that I will decide that he was somewhat dense in seeing what people were thinking and in the skills necessary for jollying people along to get them to do what you want. I'm pretty sure we won't be able to fault his seamanship.

Marni, you read my thoughts. I have never seen breadfruit. Thank you for the painting. I wonder is that an unripe or ripe breadfruit in the painting. It looks a bit smaller than a cantaloupe. Do you think so?

Does anyone know if breadfruit plants are common today?

Does any know whether the fruit was actually nutritional, or did the Royal Navy just assume so?

Hi, this post is done during a coffee break (10 a.m. EST) on the laptop of a friend. I hope to be back at my own, and to participate later today, if our jury reaches a decision. We are not sequestered, as it is a minor civil case.

On page seven I see a full description of breadfruit. I should have read further.

I always thought breadfruit to be a relative of the fig - but starchy and very nutritious. I read somewhere that it doesn't taste like bread and doesn't taste like fruit either. It has other names I think. Doesn't it grow in Hawaii?

Kleo will tell us all - Where is Kleo?

Good question. Kleo, would know.

Yes, Kleo, help!! What can you tell us about breadfruit?

Hi, Hats! Glad you're here and I'm glad you mentioned the info about breadfruit was on page 7. I had to read it again.

I think one of the most interesting things Bligh writes about breadfruit is "It must be eaten new; for, if it is kept above twenty-four hours, it grows harsh and choaky; but it is very pleasant before it is too stale." The sailors and botanists who visited the South Sea islands and ate breadfruit probably ate it while it was very fresh and delicious. What do you bet that when they fed it to the West Indies' slaves, it wasn't always fresh! The masters probably wanted to use it up til it was gone and it probably went bad. It probably tasted terrible and so the experiment failed.

I wonder why breadfruit would have been cheaper than regular bread for feeding slaves?

-----------------------------------

Pat H: RE "My first guess is that I will decide that he was somewhat dense in seeing what people were thinking and in the skills necessary for jollying people along to get them to do what you want."

I think you hit the nail on the head. I was surprised as I read Bligh's narrative at how seldom he mentioned his men. He went on and on about other things, the ship, the weather, and especially the ship's position, but he rarely mentioned his men who must have surrounded him every single day and interracted with him constantly. Wasn't that so strange?

Bligh strikes me as an extreme introvert for some reason - very into his books and charts and scientific instruments etc. But not into people. I can see that someone like that could totally miss the non-verbal messages given off by the crew.

I have to travel down to New London today to check on my parents. I'll be back tonight.

I agree Bligh doesn't come over as a 'people person' but I think we have to remember that only major cases of insubordination, punishments, illness and the like would be entered into the ship's log. As commander he would be expected to deal with everyday matters without mentioning them. His focus on navigation was necessary to ensure they arrived at their destination and his observations when in port were expected - he was His Majesty's eyes and ears and had to note down what he saw and experienced.

Apart from all that - I don't think that in this part of the journey there was any suggestion of mutiny - Christian Fletcher is being given more responsibility and they appear to have a good working relationship (so far as we can tell from Bligh's account).

The only causes for complaint seem to have been the bad weather and Bligh persisting in trying to round Cape Horn against the wind for so long and the fact that twice he does not take the opportunity to land and take on fresh supplies even though by that time the victuals are mainly spoiled or lost. He is obviously relieved to land at Cape Town and see his 'people' restored to vigour.

We need to remember that in the British Navy of those days, discipline was highly prized, and a 'firm' disciplinarian was considered the best captain. Insubordination of any kind was dealt with promptly and firmly. On board a ship at sea, the Captain was God, and that is not much of an exaggeration.

A question was asked about courts martial; if it was answered I missed it. From other reading, I gather that there was always a court martial when a captain lost a ship, but in the great majority of cases the captain was exonerated. It was only where a captain was found to be negligent in his duty, or rash to the point of foolishness, that they were found guilty. Ships were bound to be lost, in spite of the best efforts of the best of captains, and every officer on the review board was well aware of it.

On the percent allotment of prizes taken at sea, don't forget that the admiral sitting at his desk on land, giving orders to the captains, also got a portion of the prize.

Babi

4. Describe the Bounty's crew. Were any additional passengers aboard? Who kept the key to the arms? How competent was the surgeon? Were important crew missing?

I count a total of 46 Men departing on the Bounty. Of these 9 might be considered of officer or Warrant Officer rank. In addition there were 4 young gentlemen who were Midshipmen. The majority came from all parts of the British Isles. One non-English crewman was Henry Hillbrandt who came from Hanover that is now Germany and then was a part of the domain of the English King George III. Also, one of the crew was an American from Philadelphia PA. This was Isaac Martin who was a mutineer who was killed by natives when the bounty briefly returned to Tahiti after the mutiny before departing for Pitcairn.

Two important passengers were David Nelson the botanist and his assistant William Brown. Their duty was to look after th the cargo of breadfruit plants to assure their alive arrival in the West Indies. Nelson I believe had been a Botanist on the last voyage of Captain Cook. The Surgeon, Thomas Huggan was an alcoholic hardly competent even when judged by the standards of his day. I remember reading in Chapter 2 that the Master kept the keys to the arms chest. This would be Christian whose possession of the keys gave the mutineers quick access to firearms. Previously I had not realized that Christian had the keys by virtue of his position as Master. I would have thought that the Officer of the Watch would have had the keys . This would have been Christian who was Officer of the Watch the night the mutiny occurred.

In the 18th century Royal Navy discipline was maintained by a small detachment of marines. These elite sea-soldier were much relied upon to keep a disgruntled crew in check. For some reason the mission planners at the Admiralty neglected to include a marine contingent in the Bounty crew leaving Bligh defenseless and an easy victim when the mutiny occurred.

Click Here for Breadfruit from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Possibly marni has already linked this site, but I like it because it does go into some detail about how it is prepared and used. Apparently in the 18th century this fruit was the basis for the diet of the South Pacific Island people.

Click Here for another site with additional Information including some data on the fruitÕs food value and many recipies. Again I apologize if these sites have already been linked.

Regarding BlighÕs character and his place in history, I agree that all of you should formulate your judgment over the course of the course of the discussion. I would, suggest, however, that we today should not judge him against todayÕs social standards: rather we should judge him against the backdrop of his 18th century world. In particular we should not forget the fact that the bounty was a single ship alone on a distant sea. We should judge Blighs command decision agains those of the likes of Lord Nelson, Captain Cook, Captain John Paul Jones, and even Meriweather Lewis. The latter too in command of a similar sized isolated military contingent did not hesitate to flog disobedient members of his crew.

Bligh doesn't seem to be a brutal captain. On March 10, he punished Matthew Quintal with 2 dozen lashes for insolence and mutinous behavior, and remarks that this is the first time he had had to punish anyone. Since they sailed on Dec. 23, that's 2 1/2 months without a flogging, surely pretty mild for the time. I gather from some of Marni's other sources that he had a pretty rough tongue.

I understand that the reason for not having a detachment of marines on board Bounty was that so much room had been made available to carry the breadfruit plants (which was, after all the purpose of the expedition). There simply wasn't space enough for them. But it left Bligh exposed and without a back up when trouble came. We should probably also note that there was no other commissioned officer on board which no doubt added to his vulnerability.

Such interesting posts! Thank you for your great insights here!

Gumtree: You made some very important points including: "he [Bligh} was His Majesty's eyes and ears and had to note down what he saw and experienced." You've got me thinking that in his narrative after making it back to England, Bligh represented the British Navy and the king in his published narrative, also.

I think your statement here is extremely important: "The only causes for complaint seem to have been the bad weather and Bligh persisting in trying to round Cape Horn against the wind for so long and the fact that twice he does not take the opportunity to land and take on fresh supplies even though by that time the victuals are mainly spoiled or lost."

Captain Bligh was determined to fulfill his mission despite many odds. Time was already against him because he got started late and hit winter weather at Cape Horn. His ship couldn't make it around the Cape despite a whole month of desperate attempts. Bligh was aware of certain weather and sea conditions at specific times of the year, and of breadfruit growing periods. He knew he would be adding many additional miles onto his journey by heading east to Otaheite rather than west. So he sacrificed ship and crew and himself to a certain extent and he gambled by skipping stops for taking on water and supplies. This probably was to save time and the mission in the long run.

Bligh wrote that their trip from England to Otaheite was 27,086 miles. I read that 10,000 miles were added onto their journey because they had to travel east around the Cape of Good Hope instead of west around Cape Horn.

BaBi: You made a key point - in the British Navy the captain was king. His word was law.

Pat H: It does seem that Bligh was almost soft with discipline compared to some captains we read about. Bligh did not relish flogging. He seemed, on the other hand, extremely concerned about the health and welfare of his crew, taking steps to ensure this - such as enforcing a diet that included sauerkraut (Captain Cook had done this), mandating rigorous cleaning of the ship with vinegar, nightly enforced exercise (dancing).

I read something interesting. Bligh specifically took on a nearly blind sailor because he could fiddle. Bligh required a fiddler who could play things like sea shanties so the men would dance (such dances as the sailor's hornpipe) and get daily exercise. (Captain Cook had done this, also.) Apparently, the men got very tired of the sauerkraut and the dancing.

Harold: Thank you for the info about the crew and the links to breadfruit info. Yes, Bligh mentioned it was the Master (Sailing Master) who had the key to the arms. Wasn't the Master Fryer? I'll have to check to see if we read yet about Christian taking on the role. At the onset of the voyage, Christian was Master's Mate. Bligh did continue to ask Christian to handle various important tasks.

Harold and Gumtree: You both pointed out a vital problem - no marines. Pat H had told us previously how important the marines were on board to maintaining discipline. To have no marines was asking for trouble. And Bligh was concerned about it.

The marines' major roles were to protect the ship's officers, helping them to maintain control, and to be charge of the weapons. The marines were trained to fight, guarded and protected the ship and men, and fought on land as needed. They acted as an amphibious force.

Bligh listed the ship's crew in chapter 1. If you're interested in finding out some more about who they were, click on this link. It lists the crew, includes the names, and you can click on each name to find out biographical info about each crew member.

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/bounty/crew-list.shtml

This link tells us that Breadfruit is also known as Jackfruit - I have helped many Chinese Indonesians who often serve Jackfruit sliced and rolled in a coconut mixture - you can buy it in the Asian markets in your town - this link tells us a bit more about the taste of Breadfruit.

I am thinking as we cringe at all the beatings and rough treatment of the sailors - that was the way of things for many during this time in history - I would think the biggest issue the men would have is the drinking water required to keep the breadfruit saplings alive - this is water they would not be able to drink and since they were caught in the tropics without drinking water they probably went mad with rage. They certainly would have more desire to save themselves than to save these saplings for the King.

I have not read yet, what Bleigh says about his rationing the drinking water - but that to me is probably the key to what happened.

Here is an aerial photo of a modern day 90-foot schooner in trouble last year off the coast of California. The picture helps me get a better grip on the size of the Bounty.

Sounds to me if he lessened the iron than he had to shorten the masts - there was not enough ballast to handle that much sail.

Vaguely I am remembering from my sailing days that the best way around the Horn was from east to west - but this short site gives a map and a bit about rounding the Horn which is Drake's Passage.

Barbara: How very nice to see you here! Welcome aboard! Fascinating that you actually were in Indonesia and know about breadfruit. Did you taste it yourself? What did you think of the flavor and consistency?

Unfortunately, I could not get your link to work. Could you re-post the link? Thanks!

Yes, drinking water must always have been a problem for sailors on long voyages. Reminds me of the line "Water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink." I wonder what that comes from?

We know that huge casks of water had to be loaded onto ships before they shipped out, and they had to make period stops to replenish their supplies. Often the water supply got old and slimy and green, probably filled with germs and bugs. Isn't that why they preferred to drink wine and grog - water mixed with rum? To kill the taste? Maybe the alcohol helped to kill whatever was in the old water, too?

Bligh mentioned the special lead deck and water pipes that had been installed in the Bounty to help conserve fresh water - so they could keep re-using the same water for the plants. Also, the sailors made a huge effort to catch rainwater in sails to use for drinking water. I believe they charted where fresh water supplies could be found on their maps for future sailors. They would want to know what islands they could stop at to find water. I believe, too, that one of the reason the British Navy transplanted many trees and plants to various islands around the world was so that they could replenish their ships when they made stops around the world.

Barbara: You've raised an interesting point about the mission and its effect on the men. Just what would the crew have thought about their mission of transporting plants? Would they have recognized the importance of their job as Bligh perceived its importance? Perhaps they thought their captain considered the plants more important than his men?

At this point in our narrative, they haven't yet begun to load up with any breadfruit. And yet they have had concerns about drinking water simply due to the length of their journey and the captain not stopping at planned stations. However, they made it safely to Tahiti.

Marni

I was not in Indonesia - I have worked with over 30 families from Indonesia and several of them have had me to their home for various celebrations that were mostly bring a dish kind of events although the one women Lily, was a wonderful cook and liked to introduce me to various foods that I would never have known about...

It has been years since I read the Pitcairn Island version of this tale and to me that would be interesting to compare the two voyages from the sailor's point of view and the captain's point of view - I remember reading this book back when I was a young teen - maybe eight grade age... in my mind's eye, I am sorry Bleigh is Charles Laughton climbing into that row boat.

In a long article found this photo of a reenactment of the Revolution with men using a Swivel gun -

The explanation is -- "The swivel gun was a small cannon named for it's mechanism of attachment. It was about the only 18th century gun that was not a "crew-served" weapon, although it's effectiveness was multiplied when manned by more than the gunner. Once mounted, almost always on a fixed base (as the block of wood shown below) it may be pointed quickly to any quarter. But the swivel mechanism cannot stand heavy recoil, so the size, and hence effectiveness, of a swivel gun is severely limited." artillery

And here is an article showing a photo all about Bleigh and his Kendal Timepiece that was first used on Captain Cook's voyage.

OK what I wonder is - why did Bleigh proceed to try to sail around the Horn when he received the message it was already too late in the season - I did look it up and the safest time is between October and March and I was incorrect the winds blow making the trip the easiest from West to East. - So why did he choose to go by way of the Horn where he was buffeted by storms...?

And my second query is - there is no mention of a sextant - they were used since just before Bleigh was born and successfully can measure both Longitude and Latitude - their invention took place at the same time by men in England and in America - is this again an issue over funds since this was not a private venture but a government venture subject to government approved funds - it sounded like Bleigh was lucky just to get a watch to help locate the Longitude where he was sailing.

Granted the sextant would not have helped him in a storm because you do need the sun but it would have helped him in the South Pacific but more why did he go ahead towards to Horn after he was told it was too late in the season? He did not seem a stupid man so I can only guess he was a belligerent man who would do his thing and drive everyone to accomplish what he wanted.

Barbara: I was able to read the breadfruit article. Thank you! Fascinating! And the story of the 90-foot ship really makes one think about the dangers of life at sea in a vessel. What a life!

Here is a photo of a descendent of the breadfruit tree Bligh planted on St. Vincent. It's in the St. Vincent Botanic Gardens mentioned in Barbara's link:

http://www.svgtourism.com/images/articles/Botanic%20Gardenspath.JPG

Here's a photo of the fruit from the breadfruit tree on St. Vincent:

http://p.vtourist.com/1270924-breadfruit-Kingstown.jpg

Here's a brief article about how the Bounty had been refitted for the breadfruit voyage, along with a painting of the Bounty:

http://library.puc.edu/Pitcairn/bounty/bounty.shtml

Here are photos of the ship Bounty III, built for the film "Mutiny on the Bounty" with Mel Gibson. (Bounty II had been built for the film with Marlon Brando.)

http://www.lareau.org/bounty9.jpg

http://www.lareau.org/bounty7.jpg

http://www.lareau.org/b-moor3.jpg

Here's a diagram of the original Bounty:

http://www.lareau.org/bounty8.jpg

Re Barbara's question: "Why did Bleigh proceed to try to sail around the Horn when he received the message it was already too late in the season?"

Bligh provided his orders in chapter 1. Bligh said "In the foregoing orders it is to be observed, that I was particularly directed to proceed round Cape Horn; but, as the season was so far advanced, and we were so long detained by contrary winds, I made application to the Admiralty for discretional orders on that point;"

Bligh received the reply: "The season of the year being now so far advanced as to render it probable, that your arrival, with the vessel you command, on the southwern coast of America, will be too late for your passing round Cape Horn without much difficulty and hazard; you are, in that case, at liberty (notwithstanding former orders) to proceed in her to Otaheite, round the Cape of Good Hope."

Perhaps Bligh felt obliged, due to his orders, to attempt to round Cape Horn first. He would have saved himself 10,000 miles by succeeding at this. He wrote how seaworthy his ship was. But it was not to be.

oohhhwww great photos - the breadfruit reminds me of Osage Oranges although I think the Breadfruit is probably softer and certainly greener.

The photos of the Bounty are a treat and the one from Pitcairn Island gives a me a real feel for the ship - it was sorta tubby wasn't it as compared to a schooner that came along later in history.

Marni do you think Bleigh was such the stickler for command even after he was given permission to ditch the early orders? This to me is telling of his character if we could fathom out why he chose to go ahead to the Horn...

Barbara: Re "why Bligh didn't have a sextant?"

I did not find much in the first 5 chapters about the specific nautical instruments Bligh used to navigate. I skipped a bit farther into the book and Bligh mentioned that the following were on the Bounty:

quadrant

compass

map

ephemeris

book of astronomical observations

sextant

timekeeper (chronometer)

Bligh's surveys and drawings

Oh, lovely photos of Osage Oranges! I've never heard of them.

I don't know about Bligh being a stickler for command. Interesting question. He certainly tried with everything he, the men, and the ship had to get around Cape Horn. I suppose orders were everything to a ship's captain. A captain may have been the king aboard ship, but he still had to follow orders. Wasn't it a courtmartial offense to disobey orders? Maybe he just wanted to see if he could do it?

When you think of it, though, Bligh came up through the naval ranks starting when he was a boy. I don't think he had a lot of influential wealthy relatives who could get him places. He earned what he got and maybe didn't want to jeopardize his position?

I'm off to shop. Be back tonight.

OH I hope you are OK with my being fascinated as I read and need to know what the references are - I am just sharing as I read what I want to know about - here is a link showing The Needles

OH! marni, The bounty rebuit for the movie of Mutiny on board the bounty is just gorgious with the blue of blue water around it, thanks for showing us it.

Barbara, It is such a joy to read your posts in any discussion you are in as you are so informative and descriptive of what interest you, Glad you are here.

Barbara, It's great to have you on board. I think your references and attention to the details are great, along with all those nifty links. The more we learn the more fun it is.

Oh great I think we will have fun...

Marni you did find where he had a sextant - and so now I am confused because someplace I read he used reckoning - with a sextant in use there is no reckoning - the other confusing thing is that the clock started at noon - aboard ship that I know about the clock starts at midnight breaking the 24 hours into 3 sections that would match his later talking about 3 watches - each watch has an increase in the number of bells from one to finally 8 - one bell is rung for each hour of that watch - 8 hours in all - And so that bit in the beginning maybe is saying something a bit different because of when it was written - I do not think that ships that sail below the equator change their time to start a day at noon -

I know - such a little detail - but the only way I can see of getting inside the head of this man is in these details - he shows he is experienced and where the comfort of his crew was not upper most, like anyone in business cares for his equipment he cared for the health of his crew in order to achieve success.

He certainly was not alone in trying to go round the Horn during the bad time of year was he... but with all his caring for the health of his crew it still puzzles me why he would take on a risky route when he was given permission to ignore his earlier orders.

OK gotta finally leave the sailing of the Bounty for awhile - I am still on chapter 3 so I have more to read - this is the last day for early voting and I need to vote since I work the polls all day Tuesday...

I just remembered - need to look it up - Tenerife was famous for its lace - and maybe other embroidery...? I do not know but worth a look see... later...

Barbara--I peeked ahead and saw that Bligh was not given the ship's sextant when the mutineers cast him off, so he would have had to use reckoning from then on. I think I remember him mentioning using reckoning already (I'll have to check where), but presumably that was only for a day or two in bad weather.

For non-sailors or non-fans of Patrick O'Brian, reckoning is guessing the ship's position by knowing what direction you sailed, the ship's speed, how long you have been sailing at that speed, and guessing how much the currents moved you differently. You can imagine how inaccurate it was. It was even worse when you were tacking (zigzagging) which you have to do when you have the wind against you.

Reckoning

Barbara and Pat H: I found that Bligh wrote that he used "reckoning" throughout his journey. It seemed he used that navigational method along with such things as his chronometer. He compares the results to each other. He found that his "timepiece" was off by using reckoning.

Bligh uses the term "reckoning" as well as the term "dead reckoning" and I was wondering what the difference was. Answers.com says "reckoning" is "The act or process of calculating the position of a ship or an aircraft." That's pretty brief.

Here's a description of "dead reckoning." It makes my head swim!!

http://www.auxetrain.org/Nav1.html

Nautical Time

Bligh's use of nautical time does seem confusing. He himself said in his "Advertisement" in the beginning of our book: "...the notation of time used in the Narrative being according to sea reckoning, in which the days begin and end at noon, must have produced a degree of obscurity and confusion to readers accustomed only to the civil mode."

Here's a chart and description of ship time and how the ship's bell was struck to tell time:

http://www.twogreens.com/wakeup/lifeatsea/watches.htm

The time of day is very important when considering the men's watches. Bligh assigned men to be in charge of the ship at certain times. Bligh says: "I now divided the people into three watches, and gave the charge of the third watch to Mr. Fletcher Christian, one of the mates. I have always considered this as a desirable regulation when circumstances will admit of it on many accounts; and am persuaded that unbroken rest not only contributes much towards the health of a ship's company but enables them more readily to exert themselves in cases of sudden emergency."

Does anyone know just what this means - creating 3 watches? (I read that the usual schedule was 4 watches, not 3.) Is a watch on the Bounty 1/3 of a 24-hour day - 8 hours?

why did Bleigh proceed to try to sail around the Horn when he received the message it was already too late in the season"

Don't forget that sailing ships traveling to the tip of Africa (Cape Hope) did so by sailing EAST across the Atlantic to South America, and catching the winds to carry them back WEST across the Atlantic to the south of Africa. So it may not have added that much mileage to his journey to try the Horn. Given the potential savings, it may have been standard procedure.

Oh, cool! If you click on the bell picture in the watches link above, where it says "The bell of HMS Victory" you hear the bell of HMS Victory (replica of Admiral Nelson's ship) ring 8 bells.

Harold: You were in the Navy. Did you use this kind of nautical time in the Navy?

Ahoy, JoanK: How's your vacation going?

Oh, dear. JoanK: I think you just lost me on the directions. I don't think I'm much of a sailor tonight.

JoanK, you said very nicely what I was going to say. I don't think the decision to try sailing around Cape Horn was unreasonable or remarkable. He almost hit the window of opportunity that would have made it possible. A little bit of good luck rather than bad would have done it. And the saving of time once in the Pacific would have been significant. As you point out, the time lost in trying wasn't as great as we might think. And when he couldn't do it, he wasn't pig-headed about persisting.

It seems crazy that the shortest way from England to South Africa would be by way of South America, but if you factor in the winds it's so.

I'd appreciate correction from someone more knowledgeable, but here is my understanding. Tours of duty on deck were divided into watches,5 4 hour watches and 2 2 hour watches. (The reason for not having 6 4 hour watches was to prevent people from always being on duty at the same time, day or night.)

I think that if you have 2 watches everyone is on duty every other watch, and if you have 3 watches, you would only be on duty every 3rd watch. I don't think the length of the watches changed. Bligh had a small crew, so I'm surprised that he could divide it in thirds, but it would surely be a popular measure.

Please, anyone who knows better, correct me.

Click Here for Information on the sextant from the Wikipedia, free encyclopedia. According to this article it had been described by Sir Isaac Newton in the 17th century and was rediscovered to come into general use replacing the astrolabe after 1730. The Sextant could be quite accurate even for determining Longitude if an accurate chronometer was available. Click Here for the story of the BountyÕs Chronometer. It was a somewhat inaccurate cheaper 200 pound version of the better 500 pound instrument used by Captain Cook. After an interesting history the instrument today is back in England at the Greenwitch Observatory.

Though I spent 2 years in the WWII Navy I, I have forgotten the details but I think there were 3 watches each with 4 hours on followed by 8- hours off. During the off time the men might be employed in other duties repairing, servicing or cleaning the ship; sleep time too would come during the off periods.. As an example the first watch might be on 8:00 AM to 12:00 noon and return at 8:00PM until 12:00 midnight. The second watch would serve 12:00 noon until 4:00 PM, then be off until 12:00 midnight to serve until 4:00 AM. The third watch would serve 4:00 PM until 8:00PM and again 4:00 AM until 8:00 AM. There was a complicated system called a Òdog watchÓ the details of which are now completely erased from my memory through which the three watches would switch their time period .

Though I was in the South Pacific from July 1944 to June 1946 I was always shore based in the Philippines, Ulithi, and Guam. Even so I was transported on various craft and aircraft. The closest one of these came to the Bounty in size was an LCI (Landing Craft Infantry) from Ulithi to Guam a two night one day voyage. The LCI however was about 150 feet in length, some 60 feet longer than the Bounty. Its flat bottom designed to discharge its troops on the beach cause it to roll terribly in even moderate seas. ItÕs the only time I have ever been really seasick. They gave me a sleeping pill and I slept 10 hours waking feeling fine. I remember that afternoon we each got two beers from a supply our Ulithi skipper had given the ship. After that I got seasick again. On the Bounty I donÕt doubt I would not have been worth much rounding the horn!

Click Here for my Ulithi pictures

Harold looks like we are posting about the same time - I do not plan on adjusting this post however it says about the time of watches what you are saying...

Whew you are right that link that explains Dead Reckoning navigation is overwhelming - as I understand Dead Reckoning, like all plotting of a course - you need a chart or map that shows were you were and where you are going - during the time of sailing I understand they usually used pins to chart each day where they think they are -

The stars at night are a help for direction and then you have to estimate the distance traveled based on your speed and time - this does not take into account things like wind and drift and tides or currents that can affect the calculations -

This was done before a watch/chronometer was available with an hour glass which again proved inaccurate since every turn of the glass there were seconds lost. Bleigh had his chronometer - if he used reckoning [I understand on his journey after the mutiny he would have had to sail by dead reckoning] there are two ways I know about that distance was measured -

One the ship had two marks on it that when a piece of wood tied to a line was thrown overboard as it passed the marks it was called out and the time noted so an estimate of distance was measured. The sailors calling this out had a chant that helped to measure the time as well.

The other a line was tied every 6 feet which in nautical terms was called a knot - the line had a piece of some old log or floatsum from the sea tied to the end and it was thrown aft with the line feeding out as the timer measured a half hour and then pulled back in with the knots counted to again measure distance within a period of time like measuring a vehicle that is moving a 60 miles an hour to figure out how far you can expect to be in an hour -

The distance traveled in an hour by car is seldom 60 miles because of slowing for bumps or red lights or weather or whatever - same with a ship.

Some ships measured their distance every hour and others measured every change of watch and still others morning and evening. This measurement was plotted along the direction line -

The Moon, Jupiter, or the navigational star Spica were used to measure the distance between one of them and the horizon by sight or with a sextant the distance between the horizon and the sun is measured. There is math involved that I have forgotten [during my young teens my best friend's father was a fishermen and on Saturday and Sunday evening in summer he took couples out for a sunset to moonlight [or whatever the moon] sail - we helped him chart the weekend cruises]

As I understand the watches - at sea there are three watches 4Ð8, 8Ð12 and the 12Ð4. Your work aboard ship is dependent on your watch. If you are on the 12Ð4, you are on watch from noon until 4 PM and then again from midnight until 4 AM. In between its your time, unless it is "All Hands," which means all the crew is on deck.

Each Watch has chores specific to the watch:

The 4Ð8 lights the stove - washes down the deck with saltwater - gets the ship clean and makes sure all lines are coiled and stowed after tightening braces and halyards that may have gone slack overnight and usually sees to re-nipping the buntlines.

The buntlines are the middle lines on a sail - the lines attached to the end of a sail is attached to a double patch like triangle called the clew and those lines are called the clewlines - and so re-nipping the buntlines is adjusting the sail - where as the halyards are the lines that lift the spar the sail is attached to - During the afternoon 4 - 8 watch this group cleans up at the end of the workday.

The 8Ð12 cleans the ship below decks, including living quarters and heads every day. This group begins the day's projects: sanding, painting, tarring, rigging, sailmaking and so forth.

The 12Ð4 carries on with the ship's work under the supervision of the Bosun.

There must be variations on the division of the watches since Pat has found some that say they use 4 and 5 watches - as far as I know at sea the time is divided into the three watches and if they further divide the time that still does not affect how time is rung out by the bell - as to the 2 watches of 2 hours each - I had heard of this and when I questioned it years ago the answer seemed unfair since it was the 4 to 8 watch in the afternoon that was split into 2 hour watches so that the ship could take turns eating dinner - but that meant the other two watches still had their 8 hours split into 4 hours shifts in addition to the extra 2 hours that allowed the one watch to eat dinner. I was told the 4-8 watch had so much heavy sea duty that the others didn't mind taking on some of their time since they only had to be available to adjust sails if called upon.

MARNI: I'm the one that confused directions. That's what I get for posting in the middle of the night. Of course, they sailed from England. WEST (actually SW) to South America, and then EAST to Africa. This enabled them to use the prevailing winds and was actually easier than sailing down the African coast, where you would get no help from the wind.

Joan I found it - yes that had to be the answer - this site explains how the Greek historian Herodotus (c. 484Ð425 B.C.) reports on a fascinating voyage

Within the article is this --

In recent years most classicists have come to accept the voyage as one of the great sailing feats of antiquity. Once the Canaanite galleys reached the Horn of Africa, in present-day Somali, prevailing winds and currents would have pushed the ships all the way round the South African Cape where Atlantic winds and currents continue up the coast to northwest Africa.

The galleys would have had hard rowing north along the present-day coast of Morocco, but once at Gibraltar, prevailing westerlies would carry the ships back to Egypt. Nevertheless, later attempts by Greeks and others to circumnavigate Africa from west to east invariably failed because of the winds and currents.

The account by Herodotus does not mention the Benguela Current off West Africa, which sweeps across the Atlantic where it is known as the South Equatorial. This current could easily carry a disabled galley to the Brazilian coast past the Paraiba River, the place where the Canaanite inscription was reported to have been found in 1872. "

OK so I now see Bleigh as an experienced and careful seaman - who used precaution to assure the success of his voyage which included a pragmatic concern for the health of his crew.

I noted that Cmdr. Bligh's equipment included a Kendall timekeeper. Just for fun, I went looking. Here is a Kendall timekeeper:

KENDALL

Babi

Wow Babi - I bet in its day that was considered quite the time piece - and I bet collectors still look upon it as a wonderful looking piece of equipment - the scrolls on all four sides are what I would think of as Victorian and here we are talking the later part of the sixteenth century.

Thank you, Pat H, JoanK, Harold, Barbara, and BaBi for the interesting information about the winds and navigating east, and about the nautical time and watch system and choronometer.

Harold: Those are such wonderful pictures of you in the navy in the south seas. Did you ever have a chance to enjoy the beauty of the islands?

Barbara: I am so impressed with your knowledge of nautical watches and the duties performed on different watches. How did you happen to learn so much about that? It sounds as though you have had a lot of experience sailing. I must say, I'm still somewhat confused about nautical hours and watches, though. My head still whirls with that kind of information!!!

How fascinating about the Canaanite galleys! I'm amazed they could travel that far - and possibly across the Atlantic!!?? I didn't think they were built to do it. Aren't they flatter-bottomed than other ships so they can travel into shallower water? Well, maybe that doesn't matter. When you think of something like a raft crossing the Pacific - like the Kon-Tiki. Amazing things have been done by brave sailors!

JoanK: No wonder I was confused about directions! I still think I'm not much of a sailor, though! However, I just love reading about the history of navies and naval heroes, though.

BaBi: Isn't that chronometer a gorgeous thing! I visited a little museum at Mystic Seaport where there was a collection of old brass chronometers. They are things of beauty. We saw an especially wonderful one, similar to the Kendall, at the New Bedford Historical Museum. The chronometer was set by 2 screws into a mahogany box so it could hang carefully and remain stable despite the knocking about of the ship.

It was a big interest when I was a young teen - not only did I have friends whose father's sailed for a living but the boys were always spending their summers arranging berths for themselves to earn money or, a group of us would be stretching canvas on ribs to make anything from a dinghy to a bay fishing boat.

And of course for me, the reader, I read most of the sea stories that talked about life aboard the tall ships. I knew the difference between a clipper ship, a schooner, a bark, a brig and a sloop plus a few others - knew the sails by name and how they were sewn - on and on... it was for a short time one of the many interests in my life that I amerced myself.

My hero at the time was Nathaniel Bowditch - from a New England family of 13 - mother dies when he is young - he is apprenticed out at I think it was age 8 - teaches himself 3 languages by using the Bible of each language - taught himself math and advanced math - worked for a Ship Chandlery and invested his money in the cargo of a ship - finally goes to sea in his teens as an officer - he was the master of a ship during his last journey - became an investment manager for individuals making them a fortune - wrote "the" book on navigation that was still "the" tool for navigation used by Annapolis till the twentieth century - his statue is Cambridge Mass. I was enthralled reading his biography when I was in the eighth grade.

I've been getting annoyed trying to picture the route of the voyage without a map in the book. Then I saw the link and printed it up. Much better! Such a long voyage with the extra trip down to Cape Horn and then the change to Cape of Good Hope!

I've seen the movie (and TV?) versions of the mutiny but didn't remember what the actual purpose of the voyage was. Breadfruit, huh? How did that work out in the end? Did the trees survive? Were they ever used for feeding slaves as in the plan? Maybe we'll find out later.

Barbara, I think Bowditch is a great childhood hero. My own interest in sailing was the result of reading Arthur RansomeÕs books as a child. Has anyone else read them? He was an Englishman, and the books mostly describe some children sailing in the Lake Country in the 1930s. I always wanted to try sailing, but never got the chance until 3 years ago, when I spent a few days on a friendÕs catboat, then took a Coast Guard course, then took a few lessons on small boats (16-19 feet). At that point my arthritis got worse, and now I have to figure out if my shiny new hip and my decrepit old knees are seaworthy.

My feeble knowledge of sailing conditions in BlighÕs time comes from reading Patrick OÕBrianÕs books, and 2 companion books (see further post). If you havenÕt read them, I think you would like them.

Antlerlady, good to see another voyager. Since we are only considering Bligh's side of the story here, I think that it will be good to have people who have seen other takes feed in different perspectives.

Some of us are Patrick O'Brian fans, and maybe some more will try him after this discussion. I have read the whole "Master and Commander" series. A book that makes it much more intelligible, and is also very useful in this discussion, is "A Sea of Words" by Dean King. The main part of the book is a lexicon of terms--naval, medical, botanical, quotations in other languages from the books, parts of ships, etc. It also has articles on the history of the time, the organization of the navy, the state of medicine then, and lots of other good stuff.

Another useful book is "Harbors and High Seas", also by King, which gives maps for everything that happens in the books. Be warned, that he gives plot synopses that give away plot points, so you don't want to read ahead.

Ahoy, antlerlady! Welcome aboard! I'm glad you discovered the map in our Header. It's small, but it does help. We will be finding out about what happened to the breadfruit plants.

Nathaniel Bowditch was a new name for me. Here's info about him from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Bowditch

It's fun to hear people's stories about how they became interested in nautical literature. I became interested because of my dad. He was in the Navy during WWII. Now that he's blind and an invalid and can't get around, he likes to tell stories about his Navy experiences. He recommended that I read the Horatio Hornblower series, which I loved. Then he recommended the Patrick O'Brian books, which I loved even more. Then I started reading biographies about people like John Paul Jones and Steven Decatur, and about the early American Navy and the Barbary Pirates, etc. Now I can't wait to try to find some of the books Pat H mentioned.

I've loaded a bunch of sea shanties and other songs of the sea onto my iPod. I play them for my dad with portable iPod speakers when I visit him. He likes to sing along. I heard about a new CD - "Rogues Gallery" - produced by Johnny Depp. It's a 2-CD album of sea shanties, pirate songs, etc. and some of it is quite wonderful. You can find it in B&N and in Amazon. Click on samples of some of the song tracks in this link to get a taste of the music. A few songs are terrible, but most are interesting. A good one is "Mingulay Boat Song" by Richard Thompson.

http://www.amazon.com/Rogues-Gallery-Pirate-Ballads-Chanteys/dp/B000GGSMD0

Marni

MARNI, my sympathies. Whenever I find myself inundated with more info than I can absorb, I console myself with the words of Sherlock Holmes. On one occasion, Watson was surprised to find that Holmes was unacquainted with astronomy, and explained to him all about the planets, stars and solar system. Holmes listened with great interest, but then said he would erase it all from his mind! He said that his mind could only hold so much, and he preferred to store the kinds of information that would be useful to him as a detective. Shucks, if Holmes' brain can't hold it all, why should I be bothered?

Barbara, thank you for that synopsis re. Bowditch. I had come across the name before, but only as a place. I didn't realize it had been a person, and a fascinating, brilliant person as well.

My copy of the book has arrived, courtesy of the Univ. of Texas at El Paso. It is so much easier for me to read the hard copy than the on- line book. This issue contains a Preface by Laurence Irving that was not on-line. It is the 1936 re-issue, so some of you may not have it. The opening paragraph (beautifully written) strongly set out his defense of Bligh.

"It is our misfortune that we live at a time when the story of man's vices is found to be more acceptable to the reading public than that of his virtues. Shoddy historians, tumbling over one another in their eagerness to nose out the peccadilloes of a popular hero or the frailties of a recognized saint, portray, with prurient relish, the object of their researches as a groundling no better than themselves."

Wow! Babi

Marni, Arthur Ransome's books are definitely for children, and also somewhat dated. I'm not sure an adult would enjoy them much, except as a reminder of happy memories.

A biography you might enjoy, if you haven't already read it, is that of Thomas Cochrane. Both Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey are based on him, and some of his real life exploits were even more improbable than Aubrey's. The bio I read was by Robert Harvey, but there are others too.

Huh so Osnaburg Island is part of the Society Islands -

Drawings of Sir Charles Saunders Island; Osnaburg Island; Boscawens Island; Amr. Keppels Island; and Wallis's Island

Drawing of Osnaburg Island

All about the Society Islands need to scroll down a bit to find the beginning...

My guess is the only reason this book became an interesting read is because of who the author is - so far all we have is the copying of his ships log - seems to me there are several books of this caliber from this time in history - oh how we have moved on expecting so much more from non-fiction unless the remaining chapters improve we could be reading a police blotter or the notes of a science project or as it is the log of a ship at sea... even a detective story has more ummph than this read.

Thank goodness you included the link to the map Marni - from just reading the locations are not sinking in where they are.

Sounds like they made pretty good time - the wind must have been strong pushing them along with the number of times we read they had to reef the sails in.

BaBi: Thanks for the quote from the editor from your edition. It seems to me sometimes that today's times are like that, too, with people bending over backward trying to point out faults of heroes. In the edition that I had borrowed from the library earlier this year, there was a good Introduction. The book I bought has none. If you find anything else to pass on from your edition, and you don't mind typing it, please let us know.

Pat H: I definitely will have to find a biography of Cochrane. I have never read anything about him except in a brief online bio.

Barbara: Thanks for the drawings and info of some Society Islands. Very nice. Interesting to read, "All voyagers agree that for varied beauty of form and colour the Society Islands are unsurpassed in the Pacific."

Yes, it did surprise me, too, that this book seemed to be a regurgitation of Bligh's log. Yet, it was a HUGE best seller when it was published and has been published periodically since. I found it picked up a great deal in next week's reading. I would not call Bligh a great writer, however! I think one important thing about it is that it is from the horse's mouth. It is a prime source of information about the mutiny and voyages.

When I saw the drawings you provided, Barbara, it reminded me that Captain Bligh was quite an artist. Here are some of his beautiful paintings:

http://www.janesoceania.com/captbligh1/index.htm

Marni

Marni, thank you. The paintings are beautiful.

Marni, thanks for the link to the paintings. Probably when JoanK unpacks (she gets home late tonight) she will have some comment about the birds.

Discipline was crucial on board a ship. For one thing, with so many men crowded into such small quarters, living a difficult and dangerous life, some of them there unwillingly, tempers could easily explode. Everything had to be run strictly by rule.

Also, the sailing of a ship such as the Bounty was an immensely complicated matter. There were hundreds of little details that had to be gotten exactly right or lives might be lost. If you reach for a rope and it won't uncoil because someone has coiled it up wrong, or if the expected tool isn't ready at hand where it should be, the whole ship could be in jeopardy. You had to be able to count on everyone doing his duty exactly as he should. And sometimes this meant the men putting themselves in considerable danger.

Maintaining discipline is an art that comes easily to some men and not to others. I think a crucial point will turn out to be how good Bligh was at this.

Would someone kindly remind me how to post a web address in a shortened form? I have been told, but forgot how, and couldn't find it easily in the help section.

Pat there are two ways to do it - the one since I do not want it to become a link I will use [ ] in place of <>

Lets make this post the link - again remember the first would be a < but I am going to use [

[a href="http://discussions.seniornet.org/webx?13@53.0UcYa3i4kCe.659@.862525dd/255"] post number 255 [/a]

and so it is the symbol < followed by the letter a
then a space followed by href=
followed by without a break "
followed by the URL - all those words, letters and numbers
followed by "
followed by the other symbol >
then you give your link a title
followed by the symbol again <
followed by /a and the matching symbol >

Or you can take the URL and paste it on to the window in this link and it will automatically shorten the URL giving you a new one that you can copy and paste here.

http://tinyurl.com/

so that the link to the post will look like
http://tinyurl.com/yk4btf

Oh, I'm so excited! I found a wonderful thing on the web! A whole book of artwork by William Bligh scanned at the State Library of New South Wales. Here are some more paintings by William Bligh, but if you want to go through all of the book, just keep clicking on the "Next" button:

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=4

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=5

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=6

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=9

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=8

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=42

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=50

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=51

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxa565/a1086;seq=60

As I was hunting for more artwork by Bligh, I kept finding instead paintings OF Bligh. Here's a nice one - a larger view of a painting of Bligh when he was rear admiral:

http://nla.gov.au/nla.pic-an11230917

Here are two paintings of Bligh's wife, Elizabeth:

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/images/bligh-elizabeth-lg.jpg

http://www.plantexplorers.com/explorers/biographies/captain/images/elizabeth-bligh.jpg

Last year I visited a William Hodges exhibit at the Yale Center for British Art featuring his paintings created while he was a draftsman on Captain Cook's 2nd voyage. It was wonderful and included many paintings of Tahiti. Here is Hodges' "Tahiti Revisited":

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/server/show/conMediaFile.5259

Here is Hodges' "Matavai Bay":

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/upload/package/30/explore-matavai.php

More paintings of Otaheite by Hodges. You can see some of the natives and their canoes as well as the landscape:

http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=pxd11/a156;thumbs=1

Painting of Tahiti by John Webber:

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/maritime/gallery/images/bounty-gallvaitbaytahiti-lg.jpg

Bleigh did a very respectable job sketching birds and fish didn't he - funny his art work looks just like him - his wife seems a fine looking rather jolly looking women with her rosy checks.

The other two - Hodges and Weber were very good weren't they - especially Hodges - such full colors - easy to see why Gaugan was entranced with Tahiti.

Seems to me I read someplace at one time that an education even into the nineteenth century included learning to sketch and paint. While reading this it occurs to me that it isn't really all that long ago when this part of the world was new and the Americas were only being explored in the interior away from the coasts - the Lewis and Clark expedition was a full 15 years after the Mutiny although the Amazon had been explored 45 years earlier than the Mutiny.

As astonishing as the first lift off into space had been, for the shear volume of new knowledge and products the explorations during this time in history was a wonder...

Beautiful painting.

I'm fascinated by Bligh's book. Right from the start I found it so compelling a read that I am reading it aloud to husband who is also caught up in this amazing story. - he helps me out by explaining some of the technical aspects of sailing ships

Marni - Thanks for the links to Bligh's watercolours - the sketches are wonderful (watercolour defeats me - give me oils any day)- though his depiction of an echidna leaves lots to be desired...even so, when he writes about the flora and fauna here he is pretty spot on - but maybe that's because they are familiar to me.

I was very interested to read his observation that the trees cut down when he visited Van Deiman's Land (now Tasmania) with Captain Cook some years previously, had sprouted again -

I found no signs of the natives having lately frequented this bay, or of any European vessels having been here since the Resolution and Discovery in 1777. From some of the old trunks of trees, then cut down, I saw Shoots about twentyfive feet high, and fourteen inches in circumference

This is a very accurate observation. He is undoubtedly referring to the Tasmanian Blue Gum, Eucalyptus Globulus which grows in the wild on average to around 200 feet with a girth of 30-40 feet.- some reach 300 feet It's Tasmania's floral emblem -the world's 6th tallest tree and they grow in abundance around Adventure Bay where Bligh landed. This tree coppices well, so Bligh's observation that the old trunks had 25' shoots was accurate - the gums will shoot again provided the tuber beneath the soil is left intact - which is why they can survive bushfire.

I was interested to read that the 'life' of Jack Aubrey was based was based on an actual seaman. I noted, with some surprise, some interesting parallels between Aubrey and Bligh. Wasn't Aubrey's wife Bessie? Bligh's was called Betsey. Irving describes him as "a man of simple courage", "passionate in his devotion tot he Service to which he belonged, passionately devoted to his wife and family whom he adored, passionate in the pursuit of the secrets of nature.."

Remember Aubrey's close friend, the naturalist/surgeon? Bligh's friends were Nelson, the botanist in charge of the breadfruit trees, and Ledward, his surgeon. At Tenerife, Bligh got permission from the governor for Mr. Nelson to "range the hills, and examine the country in search of plants and natural curiosities", just as Aubrey's friend did.

Babi

Ginger found a terrific link about sea shanties. Click hear to listen to a whole bunch of them and to read the lyrics, too. How interesting to read that originally they were CHANTED while the sailors worked. That must be why I've seen sea "shanties" spelled "chanteys."

http://www.contemplator.com/sea/index.html

Gumtree: I'm so glad you are enjoying the book so much. So am I! It is an amazing incredible story!!! How lucky your husband can explain some of the technical aspects. My husband listens when I get excited about something in the story, but he can barely keep his eyes open. I guess he's used to me reading lines from books to him!

How fascinating about the Tasmanian Blue Gum. I was wondering about it. What a huge tree! Bligh really did remind me of a naturalist because he was so interested in the animals, flora, and fauna, wrote about them in such a detailed manner, and drew such lovely pictures of them.

Golly, BaBi, I can't remember the name of Jack Aubrey's wife at all! I just remember him as a womanizer. There do seem to be similarities between characters in those books and Bligh and several crew/passengers. I wonder if Bligh's surgeon Ledward used opium? Well, his first surgeon certainly drank a lot!

Barbara: The Bounty expedition does seem particularly fascinating when you think of how very few ships had voyaged this far into the practically unknown at the time of Cook and then Bligh. These men were very courageous and bold. The sea is unforgiving. Bligh's painting the birds reminds me of John James Audubon boldly tramping off alone into the wilderness painting his birds for the world to see.

aha someone came aboard that knows about the trees in that part of the world - welcome Gumtree - tell us a bit more about what these trees are used for - do they produce a fruit...? Blue Gum and the Eucalyptus Globulus - we use Eucalyptus branches in dried flower arrangements - small rounded leaf on a stalk with a wonderful scent - is the tree Eucalytus Globulus the same as our decorative branches?

Is Tasmania a temperate island or is it a tropical island?

Babi as an adult I never did keep up with the wonderful seafaring authors - However I am enjoying and wonder if you have been seeing the PBS Masterpiece Theatre about a young man's voyage on a sailing vassal - I think it is called "To the Ends of the Earth." A lot of life experiences packed into the small space of a ship at sea... it makes the perfect stage to tell a story.

Hi, Barbara! I watched the whole trilogy of "To the Ends of the Earth." It was based on a story by William Golding. He wrote "Lord of the Flies" so I was wondering what Golding would be saying about human nature with people tightly packed together on a very long voyage from England to Australia, I think it was. Wonderfully done, didn't you think?

When I was watching "To the Ends of the Earth," I was thinking about the size of the ship. It was supposed to be an old British "ship of the line," the largest type of warship built for the British Navy during the 18th century. (The ship on the program didn't look like a ship of the line.) A ship of the line was 3-masted, approx. 200 feet long and had 3 gun decks and at least 60 to 110 guns, and sailed with 400 to 600 men.

The Bounty was small, a brig, I think it was, 3-masted, but 90 feet long, sailing with 45 men to handle her.

Just for comparison, the USS Constitution is 204 feet long, over 43 feet wide. On my tour of Constitution, we were told she had sailed with a crew of 475 to 500 men. Imagine cramming all of them into one ship and managing everyone!

It took 2000 trees to build the Constitution. England was practically stripped naked of trees when the country built her great fleets. They cut down trees of America and Canada when they denuded their home country. I wonder how many islands and lands such as Van Diemen's Land, etc. were denuded as the British cut down trees for building masts, etc. and for firewood during their stops to replenish and refit during their years of great exploration and colonization?

I wonder what types of trees growing in the Pacific could be used for things such as masts? Not everything would be appropriate, of course, because it would have to be extremely hard wood. I wonder how hard the eucalyptus wood is. The tree seems to grow rapidly.

Yes, I did like it - never could figure out what was the matter with the guy- oh never can remember character names - but the one who at the end was snoozing in the garden - it was smelly and yet for a bit I thought it was a hip out of it's socket - could you figure it out?

And then I wonder what did happen after his godfather died - did he have a position there that I missed or was he independently wealthy - just some tail ends that may have been explained in part one and I didn't register them...

I guess they were showing that if you cannot take a dressing down from a captain than you must be unstable - because when the ship was afire he did nothing to save himself and seemed to be more about proving that he was right in his madness.

Yes, I agree it was well done - the camera work was wonderful.

I wasn't exactly sure what the medical problem was, either. Seems like his hip out of socket caused muscles to pull taut, so maybe there was a blockage of the intestines which caused his stomach to swell up? That was pretty gross. We never did find out certain things - you didn't miss anything in the first 2 parts that explained. I suppose the young man would have inherited something from his godfather. People called the young man "Lord" so he was titled. He godfather seemed to have been extremely important.

His friend, the 1st lieutenant, (Somers?) was a strange duck! He had made his way up through the ranks and seemed so very competent until he had competition from the other young lieutenant. Somers almost would rather have seen the ship burn just to prove the other man wrong. It was like he gleefully went down with his ship just knowing he had been right when the ship burned. Quite a bunch of interesting people on board in the program!

Whoops we are posting at the same time - thanks for the update on the show - so I really didn't miss anything - and yes there was a lot of gross parts shown that were probably true to life as compared to the romantic version we typically see.

Marni the Constitution was a totally different kind of a ship - it was a Frigate - long and built low - they carried maximum sail on a mainmast, foremast and a mizzenmast with a gaff fore and aft rig on the missenmast and it carries topgallant mast and sail - its cannons reloaded faster than any at the time and where war ships were slow and heavy in the water because of the ability of disability of the cannon fire they had to get fairly close to their target where as the Constitution with its superior and quick reload could fire from a greater distance.

In contrast the Bounty was a cutter with less sail and the missenmast is short on a cutter although it also carries a gaff rigged fore and aft sail - however the total sail area is much less. No topgallant mast.

It is easier to see the difference on these models - this is the Bounty Model along the side you can click on the Constitution and see that model to get an idea of the difference between the two ships.

Oh yes one more on Masterpiece Theater's production - what was that all about when all the women were going into the cabin to see him after they thought he was so injured he would die? I thought maybe at that point he was dead and they were preparing the body but they just kept filing in one after the other - what was all that about do you know...?

hmmm just thought - since they were the lower class - forgot what they called them - steerage maybe - well maybe there was a blockage that they were cleaning up bit by bit - yuck it was so gross that I guess our imagination can go on and on...

Aubrey's wife was Sophie.

There are only vague similarities between the fictional Jack Aubrey, IMHO, and the very real Captain Bligh.
British ship captains were not expected or allowed to mix and make friends with the other regular officers. That would explain the possibility for friendship with a naturalist, who was not a "regular" officer.

For a parallel in history, Voyage of the Beagle by Charles Darwin is more vivid. Darwin, himself, got off the ship and "naturalized" as much as possible. The Beagle was small and had limited space to store Darwin's collections. And his friendship with the ship captain, FitzRoy, did have lots of ups and downs, but that again was possible only because young Darwin was not a naval officer, climbing up through the ranks.

Sometimes we get so involved with fictional characters that we almost forget they are fiction, such as Sherlock Holmes. But I do like to think of Jack Aubrey as a captain who would never, ever have let ill feeling in his ship evolve into a mutiny, don't you?

Mippy, welcome back! That about Jack Aubrey reminds me - Russell Crowe was interviewed on 60 Minutes last night. Crowe always makes me think of Jack Aubrey and "Master and Commander." I thought he was quite a spectacular Jack Aubrey, extra weight and all. He showed how Aubrey as captain kept his distance from the men and always maintained control, but simultaneously gained the men's great respect and admiration. It seemed Aubrey did little things like praise men for their good work. Praise can go a long way.

I wonder if Captain Bligh praised his men? He certainly seems to have wanted everyone healthy and happy. But, as someone mentioned, was that so the mission would be successful or because he was really concerned about the men, or both? Hard to tell. To me, Bligh seems like a scientist, so concerned about things working properly, so involved in the naval instruments and in the botany, etc. He doesn't strike me as a people person, for some reason. Perhaps it is because he has been, to me, very distant in his writing about the voyage.

Perhaps because we are reading an account that was written AFTER such a long harrowing experience in which he was so extremely humiliated by a number of his men, some of whom he apparently felt close to, so close to death for so long - perhaps he found it difficult to write about the human side of the events and people involved.

BaBi and Mippy,you have brought up a very important point. Once a man became Captain of a ship, he led a socially isolated life. Although he ate with others, they were not supposed to initiate conversations. His word was law, and no one could directly contradict him. It would be very easy to lose track of the currents of feeling on board and not realize when things weren't going well.

Some men had the knack of seeing what the men were thinking, leading them effectively, and keeping their loyalty and some did not. I agree about Aubrey--he is pictured as having a good feeling for the pulse of the ship, and being able to lead the men well. His real life counterpart, Cochrane, was this way also--popular and well-liked and respected by his men.

Marni--we were posting at the same time. I agree that Bligh doesn't seem to be good with people.

Barbara: Thanks for the info about the Constitution. Those American frigates were quite spectacular, weren't they. The Bounty certainly was no American frigate and no ship of the line. I was thinking, though, that she was basically 50% that size and she had only 9% of the men (and no marines). Of course, she wasn't at war and didn't need all the men required to man the guns in battle.

You know, I was thinking of the 2000 trees it took to build a ship like the Constitution - such a huge use of an important resource. Six large frigates were built at about the time the Constitution was built. The Philadelphia was one of them. The Philadelphia served less than 1 year before it was sent to the Mediterranean where it promptly ran aground and surrendered to Tripoli. Then Steven Decatur and some men burned the ship to prevent the Tripolitans from using it. Wow, what a waste of a ship! All those trees and everything else used to build it!

I guess that kind of thing happened a lot - the loss of expensive ships at sea either due to war or natural elements or whatever. My father told me tha in the 18th century one ship in 5 was lost at sea. I can't find any statistics on this. Does have any statistics of ships lost at sea?

Pat H: It's almost hard to imagine how Bligh could not have had a good feeling for the pulse of the Bounty when you think of the size of the ship and how much of it was taken up with stuff for the breadfruit plants. You'd think they would have practically been tripping over each other, including the captain.

Hi, been busy, caught up with posts, most of reading, a few comments.

"To me, Bligh seems like a scientist, so concerned about things working properly, so involved in the naval instruments and in the botany, etc. He doesn't strike me as a people person, for some reason. Perhaps it is because he has been, to me, very distant in his writing about the voyage."

Part of the job of every sailing vessel at this time was to return useful navigational and scientific information back home. Bligh was obligated to check the coordinates of all places he visited, to confirm their locations by various means, to draw maps, do illustrations (not paintings, but scientific illustrations) of organisms, and islands, and lands, and to further knowledge of the British Empire for protecting, expanding and profiting off of their holdings. He probably spent some time conversing with the main botanist, although not his assistant, maybe dining with the former, as this was typical on ships, as both would be in charge of gathering scientific information for the King.

He probably spent very little time with the crew because he had no time to spare. He was completely in charge of the ship and its crew, their supplies, the mission, and charting their journey. In addition he was responsible for a large part of the science the journey would be expected to return, and had to write up everything that happened every day, on top of doing illustrations, charts, exploring, checking water, planning.

He probably simply had no time to hang out and get to know the crew, so I can't fault him too much for this, even if it is not particularly flattering toward him.

"Perhaps because we are reading an account that was written AFTER such a long harrowing experience in which he was so extremely humiliated by a number of his men, some of whom he apparently felt close to, so close to death for so long - perhaps he found it difficult to write about the human side of the events and people involved."

Or he simply can't humanize his inferiors, making him a man of his times. I've heard a handful of folks here express a strong preference for Bligh's version of the events--well, the British of the time did so, also. And for quite some time afterwards, as the lower classes did not necessarily have a voice. Bligh had everything in his favor for presenting a retroactive and attractive view of events, and no incentive whatsoever to cloud his view with an unbiased eye. This does not mean I disfavor Bligh's version, in particular, but do want to point out that it's only his word, he has no reason whatsoever for including negative information about himself, and much incentive to not do so (his and his family's future, for example), and the times were greatly in favor of his viewpoint as an officer, and against that of the mutineers, even before they mutineed

Reading from the other side also would give us a more balanced look.

Jackfruit and breadfruit are not the same plant, but rather they are different species, Artocarpus heterophyllus is jackfruit, and Artocarpus communis, or Artocarpus altilis is breadfruit. More on that later.

The slaves had no incentive to like breadfruit, as it would not increase their diet or ease their harsh life in anyway, and sometimes change itself is abhorrent, especially when all of life is as dreadful as being a slave on a sugar plantation in the Caribbean in the 18th century. Whoever commented about it being served rotten, guessed well, imo, as this would have been typical behavior of the plantation system, get a new plant that has to be served fresh, don't pay attention to directions, then whine about the failure and blame it on the slaves. Bread required a lot of work, flour had to be imported at great cost, time spent preparing the bread, the ovens required wood to burn, and their temperature had to be fairly well maintained, and more wood was necessary than for cooking breadfruit. I suspect, though, they were fed some sort of corn bread, rather than a wheat flour bread.

The term "corn", as it is used in the book, by the way, is the British use for grain, not maize, as Americans use the word "corn."

Great comments everyone, you answered most of my questions, except this burning one:

Why was the deck covered with lead?

Kleo

It was the deck of the great cabin (Captain's quarters, but extended forward) that was covered with lead. As I understand it, this was a sort of drip pan to carry off the water from the pots of breadfruit trees, which were set in holes in a false floor over the lead pan. Pipes at the forward corners of the drip pan carried the water off into tubs for recycling.

Incidentally, this meant that Bligh had given up the large quarters due a Captain. He had "a small cabin on one side to sleep in" and "a place near the middle of the ship to eat in".

Welcome, Kleo! Glad you made it and thank you for your insights and answers.

Speaking of the lead lining reminded me of the copper lining the bottom of the Bounty. I read that this was one of the early successful uses of lining the bottom of a ship with copper to prevent "the worm" from boring through the wood. I had wondered what "the worm" was - thought maybe it was barnacles, but it is not - I had to look it up. The worm was the Teredos (Teredo navalis- family: Teredinidae), a marine worm.

"Teredos are worm-like wood boring bivalves with small somewhat T-shaped shells at the front end and a pair of calcerous projections called pallets at the rear. The whole worm is several inches long.

The file-like end of its valve are used for boring; the pallets seals the open end of the burrow. Shipworms are one of the few marine creatures that exist mainly on digested cellulose. They are a menace to untreated pilings and wooden boats."

http://www.geocities.com/submergefestival/teredos.htm

Pat H: It seems Captain Bligh not only gave up a good portion of his private space, but took on tasks not usually assigned to the captain. For example, he had no purser. Bligh had to act as purser, a large job. Here's what Wikipedia says the purser was responsible for:

The purser was "a warrant officer in charge of supplies such as food ("victuals"), clothing, bedding, candles, and so forth. The purser was not actually in charge of pay, but of necessity had to track it closely, since the crew had to pay for all their supplies, and it was the purser's job to deduct those expenses from their wages. The purser bought everything (except victuals) on credit, acting almost as a private merchant. In addition to his official responsibilities, it was customary for the purser to act as a literal private merchant for luxuries such as tobacco, and to be the crew's banker.

As a result, the purser was always at risk of losing money and being thrown into debtor's prison; conversely, the crew and officers habitually suspected the purser of making an illicit profit out of his complex dealings. However, very few pursers became wealthy from their dealings; although there were wealthy pursers, it was due to side businesses facilitated by their ships' travels."

I read in the Alexander book about the mutiny that after Bligh returned to England, he got a lot of flack about his role as purser, with people suggesting he cheated to make a profit for himself. From Bligh's letters, it appears he actually lost money personally as a result of his purchases for the Bounty.

Poor Bligh had a lot to contend with as captain of the Bounty. No large private cabin. No marines. No purser. No other commissioned officers. He had taken a cut in pay when he took on the job - plus didn't get the promotion promised to him. And what a difficult job he had!

Pat H: Thanks for the explanation of the lead. It reminded me of the metal (lead?) lining in my antique oak refrigerator. Have you folks seen those old things? Mine is quite a good size. I use it to store my liquor. It has shelves and space for a block of ice. At the bottom of the ice shelf lies what looks like a lead liner with ridges that funnel the melting water to a pipe that goes down a hole in the bottom of the frig. The water pours down the pipe into a tray.

I picture the lead and pipes in the Bounty as something like that except much larger.

I wonder if the metal in my old frig is lead?? My brother almost died of lead poisoning when he was 2 years old. He chewed the old paint on our porch railing. We had an old house.

Barbara : Here is a link to the Tasmanian Blue Gum - though this poor captive tree is not very tall - more pictures as you scroll down

Tasmanian blue gum

Barbara - Tasmania is certainly not a tropical island - it's part of Australia and lies off the southern coast of Victoria.

This link is the most comprehensive I could find and will tell you more than you ever wanted to know.

Van Dieman's Land/Tasmania

I have been reading the book online as my copy hasn't arrived. Either I missed it or Bligh didn't describe what punishment he gave to the three deserters that eventually were caught and returned to the ship. He did discuss flogging other sailors????????

Thanks, PAT. My memory failed me there. Aubrey's wife was 'Sophie', not Bessie.

I was impressed by the action taken by the governor of Teneriffe to alleviate the poverty and 'wretchedness' of the lower classes. He established a home, or 'hospicio' for indigent girls, men and boys. The girls were taught to spin and weave, dye and produce saleable goods. After five years, they were at liberty to leave and marry, with a dowry given them of their wheel and loom, with a sum of money from the fund produced by their labor.

The men and boys were employed in making blankets and common woolens, and if they became ill or infirm they were able to remain there and be cared for. This all sounds like a surprisingly advanced outlook for those days.

Babi

Gumtree: Thanks for the fabulous images and info of the gum tree and Tasmania. Beautiful tree. I loved the picture with the kookaburras! The leaves of the tree do look like the eucalyptus leaves in dried wreathes.

The only thing I had heard about Tasmania before reading about it here was the Looney Tunes Tasmanian devil (above). He does look quite ferocious in his photo.

Babi: Bligh, too, was impressed by the establishment for the poor children in Teneriffe. It reminded me of "poor houses" and indentured servants. I felt very sorry for the children being forced to work like that to pay their way. However, it was better than starving and being on the street. I suppose it was a system ahead of its time when you think of stories like "The Little Match Girl." And they did end up with something to take away with them as a result of all their labors. But it made me sad.

But remember, he was the only one who had any personal space, and he had two, his tiny cabin and his dining quarters. Generally he would have had a much larger cabin, but the crew got by with no personal space. Modern military ships are the same, the captain gets big quarters, officers, except the top few, share quarters, NCOs get large shared rooms with some personal space, and lower enlisted men get a locker attached to a bunk above or below another bunk in a huge room full of bunks.

Ah, okay, lead for the potted plants, that makes sense.

Teredo is a mollusk, it does not belong to one of the marine worm phyla.

The indigenous inhabitants of the Canary Islands were a stone age culture when Europeans started settling there in the late 14th century. They probably were most closely related to the European stone age cultures, but their language indicates some pre-Islamic Berbers origins, also, and some others.

Yes, nobody loves a purser. I can't put too much interest into any complaints that the captain of a ship, forced to act as the purser on top of everything else, cheated anyone. It would have required too much effort and time, imo, that Bligh simply could not have had.

Kleo

Kidsal: Very good point. You're a bit ahead of us in reading - in the Week 2 chapters. Some of us haven't quite reached that point yet. Let's definitely discuss that further when everyone has caught up.

And catching up soon we shall! Tomorrow begins our discussion of Week 2 - Chapters 6 thru 10. The Bounty has arrived at Otaheite!!

Here is an interactive map of the Society Islands. You can click on areas such as Tahiti to enlarge them.

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/oceania/society.htm

Tahiti is "about half way between South America and Australia in the central South Pacific. It is the largest island of the Windward Group of the Society Islands in French Polynesia. Area: 402 square miles." More about Tahiti with some wonderful photos:

http://www.polynesia.com/tahiti/island-map.html

Kleo: If the Teredo is a mollusk, not a marine worm phyla, what was "the worm" that Bligh mentioned, the worm that plagued wooden ships? Everything I've read calls it teredo, but I don't know anything about it except what I've seen on some websites. Was "the worm" the teredo, and just not a worm?

Teredo is a mollusk, but another name for it is shipworm. I'm sure that is what the copper bottom was protecting against, as it was such a common problem (still is).

Thanks, Pat H!

I did it! I shortened a URL. Thanks to Barbara StAubrey

Captain Bligh seems like a nice enough person to me. He mentions very early in the book about how the crew had a nice christmas, and he says later on that he had made sure to tell them all to dress warmer when they began sailing into colder waters. It's interesting to notice that he refers to them as "the people" rather than the crew or the men or the sailors. It somehow makes him seem kind. Also he seems to be pleased about catching fish and rain water, and he's very concerned about keeping their clothes dry. He's trying to make the best of a hard life. ~JudyS

Hi, Hats, and everyone. Ramadan was early this year, so I've been very busy getting through the Muslim holidays--the few Christians in my family are heavily outnumbered by the Muslims in California at about 150-1.

Yes, Pat, well-stated. Sorry, Marni, should have clarified that although it is commonly called a worm (shipworm), it is not a worm, but a mollusk.

Yes, Judy, he seems nice enough telling his story. Still, I simply can't imagine being flogged--20 lashes? or was it 14? It hardly matters when 1 seems subhuman to implement. And you can bet that noblemen and ship's captains didn't have floggable offenses they had to worry about.

His overall concern for his crew is from shipping with Captain Cook, who had excellent discipline and great response and loyalty from his crew because he made sure they were shipshape in health and clothing and all details he could attend to before he demanded they make his ship shipshape--he had very clean ships, too.

Speaking of which, what did they do for a head on these old ships? Must have been pretty foul, whatever it was.

Kleo

Wow, was that interesting about shipworms! Yes, Pat, your shortened URL worked!

I wonder if the USS Constitution has a copper bottom? It was built approx 1798 so it was somewhat later. I'm going to check....Yes! The copper bottom was restored along with other extensive repairs from 1992 to 1996. You can see the copper on the keel being restored in this photo:

http://www.hazegray.org/features/constitution/const04.jpg

Here are other photos of the restoration:

http://www.hazegray.org/features/constitution/

I get all excited about tall ships. They are so beautiful. I grew up in New London, CT, home of the US Coast Guard Academy and the USS Eagle. They periodically have parades of tall ships in the Thames River. The beauty of the ships on parade brings tears to my eyes.

The USS Nautilus is located permanently at the submarine museum across the river in Groton. Boy, you think it must have been tight quarters in the Bounty. Go for a tour of an old submarine. I can't imagine how they could not have gotten claustrophobia!

Those are great pictures of the restoration of USS Constitution. I went on board her a year or so ago, and my SIL had trouble prying me loose. She is magnificent to see.

So now, after 10 months, we have finally reached Otaheite. I'll try to gather up some remaining thoughts in a couple of posts before going on to read the next chapters.

There is a typo in my book at the end of chapter 5: it says that the ship had run 27,086 miles, making an average of 10 miles every 24 hours. That is obviously wrong, and the online version says 108 miles. I think that's a pretty good speed for the times, given weather variations. Does anyone know for sure?

I notice that after they had spent a month failing to round Cape Horn, it only took them another month to reach the Cape of Good Hope. (But they then stopped for 38 days of repairs, etc.)

My version says "10 miles" also. Unfortunately, I know nothing about speed at sea.

Barbara or Harold or anyone?

Meanwhile, have we covered all of the questions? I just realized I put one question in that is not covered until Week 2's reading - part 2 of Question 11. But we'll cover that this coming week.

6. What sort of ÒmischiefÓ and suffering did storms create for the Bounty and her crew?

The terrible storms at Cape Horn and several others in the Atlantic did severe damage to the ship and opened her seams. It created havoc with sails and lines. Everything was soaked and had to be dried.

I can't imagine living through an experience like that. I get sea sick sailing in the Thames River on a nice day. There must have been many days when a sailor in the 18th century thought he was living his last day. What courage they had to have! And sometimes, what luck.

Remember when the Bounty first sailed, a sailor fell and was nearly killed? He was lucky. I was wondering if the men thought that was an omen? On the other hand, maybe it was too common an occurrence to be considered an omen.

How about Questions 10 and 11, part 1? Anyone want to give them a go before we move on?

10. Why did Captain Bligh have every person aboard examined by the surgeon when the Bounty reached Otaheite?

11. How did the natives on Otaheite differ, in BlighÕs narrative, from the natives in Van DiemenÕs Land?

Captain Bligh had the crew checked for venerial desease as he didn't want it transmitted to the natives on the island.

The natives on Otaheite were more sophisticated?? -- apparently a better government as not as much stealing. Also Bligh seemed confortable visiting and dining with them for long periods of time.

Maybe I can catch up with Capt. Bligh. I have been in the country of India.

I love reading the descriptions of land and birds and flora during the journey. I haven't caught up on post. I will try to catch up on posts tonight. I don't recognize the birds mentioned. I know there is a poem about the albatross.

1.pintada
2.albatross--I picture this bird as big and heavy.
3.blue petterels


There is a mention of seeing whales too. -- Are whales as dangerous as sharks? I say no.

My father loved to go fishing. Often, he would go deep sea fishing. A few times he took me along. I remember one time becoming seasick. I ended up in the "hole." Seasickness is the worse feeling in the world. I will never forget that awful, awful feeling. The next time I went with my father he took along seasick pills. I stayed up on deck, caught fish and loved the roll of the ocean. He liked to go to Cape May, Wildwood. The names are escaping me. Too bad I didn't keep a journal of my boring life because now my memories are flying away from me.

Are the Hottentots the Dutch?

Capt. Bligh describes the natives. One part of the description I can't understand. "their skin is scarified about their shoulders and breast." What is the meaning of "scarified?"

Thanks for the great links gumtree - need to catch up and be back later - I am exhausted - worked the polls yesterday from 6: in the morning when we set up till 8:30 last night when we finally delivered our packets - there were 7 of us and we handled over 1400 as well the computer went down for about 45 minutes during the evening rush so that we were writing by hand information without even the benefit of the old books we used when so much was done by hand. Every part of my aches today and without being able to take brakes I did not drink enough water and so my legs are cramping up - I just loaded myself up with potassium - I need to get myself functional - have meetings starting late morning till this evening - I know I sound like one big complaint - but I am zonked - be back tonight.

Question 10--I wonder if Bligh was really concerned about giving venereal diseases to the natives, or if he was more concerned about disease spreading more widely among his own men; the men infect the natives, who then infect more of the men. Of course, since the medical treatments of the time for venereal disease were pretty useless, There was no practical defense.

Did anyone notice the death from doctoring? Toward the end of chapter 5, James Valentine gets slightly sick. He is bled (standard treatment of the time). "Sometime afterwards, the arm in which he had been bled became painful and inflamed: the inflammation increased, with a hollow cough, and extreme difficulty in breathing, to his death." He died of infection from the bleeding.

PatH, I did notice the part about James Valentine. He had athsma. Wasn't it awfully extreme to bleed a man for an athsma attack? The bleeding seemed to cause him more problems.

At first the Otaheitians seem very friendly. Some tell about remembering Captain Cook. The Otaheitians, so far, seem hospitable. They don't have much breadfruit to share with Bligh. The islanders do share cocoanuts and plantain trees. Their willingness to board the ship, I suppose, is because of their acquaintance with Captain Cook and his crew.

The Hottentots are the Khoikhoi, one of the indigenous peoples of South Africa, closely related linguistically and ethnically to the Bushmen. They were called the Hottentots for some reason related to the sound of their language, one of the south African languages with the elaborate clicks.

Kleo

Kleo, thank you. That's interesting. I did find some information. I hope it's the right information to go along with what we are reading. Kleo, everything you wrote is in the article. So, I guess this link is alright.

Hottennots

Why didn't Bligh want the Tahitians to know how Captain Cook died? Captain Cook was killed by previously friendly Hawaiian natives during a dispute. Presumably Bligh didn't want to give the Tahitians any ideas.

Wow, so many great posts today! I've been looking at election results on the news and working on my Latin.

Kidsal and Pat H re venereal disease - I wonder, too, if Bligh wanted to find out who had it and see if his men caught it from the natives. Cook's men had already been there. Bligh must have been very familiar with venereal disease, having been at sea for so long. I read somewhere that it was not known where venereal disease came from. Some thought the British caught it from natives of America or from islands and then passed it on. I also read that the Tahitians were devastated with venereal disease shortly after the British ships began stopping there. This all reminds me of the Lewis and Clark expedition where apparently nearly all of their men came down with venereal disease after sleeping with indian women of various tribes. Itmay may have been passed from French traders and then amongst the tribes. What terrible contagious diseases!

Pat H: With all of the venereal disease being passed back and forth, and being treated (unsuccessfully?) with mercury, do you think the wives back home (and their children born after) got it? I've never heard about that. But, wouldn't you think their husbands passed it along?

Hats: Welcome back from India! Hope you had a safe journey with no sea sickness. I think by "scarified" Bligh meant "scarred." He also uses the word "tattooed" and "painted" a number of times, so I think there is a distinction between these words. I wonder if the Otaheitians as a culture cut themselves to make ritual scars as did some African tribes? They certainly did a lot of tattooing.

I read in the Alexander book that many of Bigh's men had themselves tattooed in the manner of the Tahitians during their long stay. The tattooes were extensive. Some of the crew, including Peter Heywood and Fletcher Christian, had their entire buttocks and lower back tattooed. Here is an article with photographs and illustrations of the tattooes, including illustrations made by a man on one of Captain Cook's voyages. "The artists of the Captain Cook voyages can again be credited with the first illustrations of Tahitian tattooing. In a sketch by Parkinson, we see the typical women's tattoo as described by so many of the early explorers."

http://www.janeresture.com/oceania_tattoos/tahiti.htm

Pat: I did notice that about the man dying from being bled. Don't they think that is what happened to George Washington?

Kleo and Hats: Thanks for the info about the Hottentots. I have heard of them before and, for the life of me, I can't remember where.

Pat: Re "Captain Cook was killed by previously friendly Hawaiian natives during a dispute. Presumably Bligh didn't want to give the Tahitians any ideas." I read that Cook was stoned to death by Hawaiian islanders en masse. Reading about the ongoing warfare among the various Tahitians made me nervous for Bligh and the Bounty crew. I felt sometimes like Bigh had to walk on eggs. Bligh described the natives as such a very delightful, friendly, happy people; yet they certainly had a dark side!

Golly, I just heard Rumsfeldt resigned. I have to go watch the news!

Barbara: Good for you for working the polls! You are such a good volunteer!

I'll check in later.

Marni

Re: miles per day, and the figure given at the end of Chapter 5: 27,086 miles:
If they had been out sailing for 10 months, using 30 days/month, that is an
average of approximately 90 miles per 24 hour-day.

The three deserters were Charles Churchill, William Musprat and John Millward. Bligh writes that although they took weapons with them, he could not figure out what their plan was (p. 71, paperback). After a few days, Tepahoo told the captain that the deserters had been spotted (p. 73) and subsequently the three returned of their own free will, saying that they had intended all along to return (p. 74).

We can only speculate that the deserters were looking for a chance to live among the natives, and gave up on the idea when it wasn't as easy as they had hoped. At one point (p. 75) the natives had seized and bound the deserters. So "going native" wasn't any fun!

Thought this might interest some of you: origin of tattoos

A better to read copy : A Brief History of Tattoos:Tattoo You

The word tattoo comes from the Tahitian "tatu" which means "to mark something."

It is arguably claimed that tattooing has existed since 12,000 years BC. The purpose of tattooing has varies from culture to culture and its place on the time line. But there are commonalties that prevail form the earliest known tattoos to those being done on college students on Telegraph Ave. in Berkeley.

Tattoos have always had an important role in ritual and tradition. In Borneo, women tattooed their symbols on their forearm indicating their particular skill. If a woman wore a symbol indicating she was a skilled weaver, her status as prime marriageable material was increased. Tattoos around the wrist and fingers were believed to ward away illness. Throughout history tattoos have signified membership in a clan or society. Even today groups like the Hells Angels tattoo their particular group symbol. TV and movies have used the idea of a tattoo indication membership in a secret society numerous times. It has been believed that the wearer of an image calls the spirit of that image. The ferocity of a tiger would belong to the tattooed person. That tradition holds true today shown by the proliferation of images of tigers, snakes, and bird of prey.

In recorded history, the earliest tattoos can be found in Egypt during the time of the construction of the great pyramids (It undoubtedly started much earlier). When the Egyptians expanded their empire, the art of tattooing spread as well. The civilizations of Crete, Greece, Persia, and Arabia picked up and expanded the art form. Around 2000 BC tattooing spread to China.

The Greeks used tattooing for communication among spies. Markings identified the spies and showed their rank. Romans marked criminals and slaves. This practice is still carried on today. The Ainu people of western Asia used tattooing to show social status. Girls coming of age were marked to announce their place in society, as were the married women. The Ainu are noted for introducing tattoos to Japan where it developed into a religious and ceremonial rite. In Borneo, women were the tattooists. It was a cultural tradition. They produced designs indicating the owners station in life and the tribe he belonged to. Kayan women had delicate arm tattoos which looked like lacy gloves. Dayak warriors who had "taken a head" had tattoos on their hands. The tattoos garnered respect and assured the owners status for life. Polynesians developed tattoos to mark tribal communities, families, and rank. They brought their art to New Zealand and developed a facial style of tattooing called Moko which is still being used today. There is evidence that the Mayan, Incas, and Aztecs used tattooing in the rituals. Even the isolated tribes in Alaska practiced tattooing, their style indicating it was learned from the Ainu.

In the west, early Britons used tattoos in ceremonies. The Danes, Norse, and Saxons tattooed family crests (a tradition still practiced today). In 787 AD, Pope Hadrian banned tattooing. It still thrived in Britain until the Norman Invasion of 1066. The Normans disdained tattooing. It disappeared from Western culture from the 12th to the 16th centuries.

While tattooing diminished in the west, it thrived in Japan. At first, tattoos were used to mark criminals. First offenses were marked with a line across the forehead. A second crime was marked by adding an arch. A third offense was marked by another line. Together these marks formed the Japanese character for "dog". It appears this was the original "Three strikes your out" law. In time, the Japanese escalated the tattoo to an aesthetic art form. The Japanese body suit originated around 1700 as a reaction to strict laws concerning conspicuous consumption. Only royalty were allowed to wear ornate clothing. As a result of this, the middle class adorned themselves with elaborate full body tattoos. A highly tattooed person wearing only a loin cloth was considered well dressed, but only in the privacy of their own home.

William Dampher is responsible for re-introducing tattooing to the west. He was a sailor and explorer who traveled the South Seas. In 1691 he brought to London a heavily tattooed Polynesian named Prince Giolo, Known as the Painted Prince. He was put on exhibition , a money making attraction, and became the rage of London. It had been 600 years since tattoos had been seen in Europe and it would be another 100 years before tattooing would make it mark in the West.

In the late 1700s, Captain Cook made several trips to the South Pacific. The people of London welcomed his stories and were anxious to see the art and artifacts he brought back. Returning form one of this trips, he brought a heavily tattooed Polynesian named Omai. He was a sensation in London. Soon, the upper- class were getting small tattoos in discreet places. For a short time tattooing became a fad.

What kept tattooing from becoming more widespread was its slow and painstaking procedure. Each puncture of the skin was done by hand the ink was applied. In 1891, Samuel O'Rtiely patented the first electric tattooing machine. It was based on Edison's electric pen which punctured paper with a needle point. The basic design with moving coils, a tube and a needle bar, are the components of today's tattoo gun. The electric tattoo machine allowed anyone to obtain a reasonably priced, and readily available tattoo. As the average person could easily get a tattoo, the upper classes turned away from it.

By the turn of the century, tattooing had lost a great deal of credibility. Tattooists worked the sleazier sections of town. Heavily tattooed people traveled with circuses and "freak Shows." Betty Brodbent traveled with Ringling Brothers Circus in the 1930s and was a star attraction for years.

The cultural view of tattooing was so poor for most of the century that tattooing went underground. Few were accepted into the secret society of artists and there were no schools to study the craft. There were no magazines or associations. Tattoo suppliers rarely advertised their products. One had to learn through the scuttlebutt where to go and who to see for quality tattoos.

The birthplace of the American style tattoo was Chatham Square in New York City. At the turn of the century it was a seaport and entertainment center attracting working-class people with money. Samuel O'Riely cam from Boston and set up shop there. He took on an apprentice named Charlie Wagner. After O'Reily's death in 1908, Wagner opened a supply business with Lew Alberts. Alberts had trained as a wallpaper designer and he transferred those skills to the design of tattoos. He is noted for redesigning a large portion of early tattoo flash art.

While tattooing was declining in popularity across the country, in Chatham Square in flourished. Husbands tattooed their wives with examples of their best work. They played the role of walking advertisements for their husbands' work. At this time, cosmetic tattooing became popular, blush for cheeks, coloured lips, and eyeliner. With world war I, the flash art images changed to those of bravery and wartime icons.

In the 1920s, with prohibition and then the depression, Chathma Square lost its appeal. The center for tattoo art moved to Coney Island. Across the country, tattooists opened shops in areas that would support them, namely cities with military bases close by, particularly naval bases. Tattoos were know as travel markers. You could tell where a person had been by their tattoos.

After world war II, tattoos became further denigrated by their associations with Marlon Brando type bikers and Juvenile delinquents. Tattooing had little respect in American culture. Then, in 1961 there was an outbreak of hepatitis and tattooing was sent reeling on its heels.

Though most tattoo shops had sterilization machines, few used them. Newspapers reported stories of blood poisoning, hepatitis, and other diseases. The general population held tattoo parlors in disrepute. At first, the New York City government gave the tattoos an opportunity to form an association and self- regulate, but tattooists are independent and they were not able to organize themselves. A health code violation went into effect and the tattoo shops at Times Square and Coney Island were shut down. For a time, it was difficult to get a tattoo in New York. It was illegal and tattoos had a terrible reputation. Few people wanted a tattoo. The better shops moved to Philadelphia and New Jersey where it was still legal.

In the late 1960s, the attitude towards tattooing changed. Much credit can be given to Lyle Tuttle. He is a handsome, charming, interesting and knows how to use the media. He tattooed celebrities, particularly women. Magazines and television went to Lyle to get information about this ancient art form.

Toady, tattooing is making a strong comeback. It is more popular and accepted than it has ever been. All classes of people seek the best tattoo artists. This rise in popularity has placed tattoists in the category of "fine artist". The tattooist has garnered a respect not seen for over 100 years. Current artists combine the tr5adition of tattooing with their personal style creating unique and phenomenal body art. With the addition of new inks, tattooing has certainly reached a new plateau.

Mippy: What was your reaction to how Tynah got the Tahitians to find the deserters and also the pilfered articles? It seemed to me that some of the natives helped the sailors get away and others, on instructions from Bligh and Tynah, helped get them back. Did anyone find out what happened to the deserters once they were back on the ship? Desertion was a hanging offense, but I didn't see anything about them after that.

Ginger: What an interesting article about tattooing! Tattooes are certainly back in the U.S. Just look at basketball players. Some men are tattooed to represent a gang. Women have tattooes all over. My sister-in-law has a butterfly tattoo on her right breast. My husband, who works for a large insurance company (usually extremely conservative), says casual clothing at work has become so casual that young women wear low-waisted pants and cropped tops to work so you can see their bare midriffs and their tattoos there.

My next door neighbor told me that her daughter-in-law, who lives in St. Thomas, got a tattoo, got hepatitis, and is dying as a result of infection from getting the tattoo. Apparently, you have to be extremely careful and clean, not share needles among clients, or diseases can be transmitted. I heard that even if tattoo artists use a different needle with each client, if they dip in the same ink they can transmit disease.

I wonder why the Normans disdained tattooes?

Marni, Thank you for not scolding me for my post but it was interesting to me so thought to share even though it was quite long.

I wouldn't scold you, Ginger!! And the article was long, but interesting. Tattooes fascinate me, for some reason. Has anyone seen the TV show "Miami Ink" on the Discovery Channel? It's a weekly program, I believe, and shows the various tattoo artists at work. They are incredible artists. Such a variety of people go in to get tattooes - and for the most interesting reasons. For example, someone's friend died, so to remember his friend, he brought in his photograph and had a tattoo created on his back to commemorate his friend. See info here:

http://tlc.discovery.com/fansites/miami-ink/slideshow/miami_ink_gallery_index.html

I remember the days when I grew up in New London, where the sub base is located and so many ships come in. There were always lots of sailors around. They were the only ones I ever knew who had tattooes. And lots of sailors had tattooes. How times have changed. I personally would be uncomfortable getting a tattoo, though. I'd be the one to get a disease, with my luck! Plus, they're basically permanent. I know they have machines today that "remove" them, but I've seen results and there is scarring.

Tattoos also change with changing body shape. Someone I know said her brother had gotten tattood with a dashing unicorn as a young man, and as he got older and flabby, the unicorn looked more like a pregnant horse.

Bligh was shocked when the women laughed at the death of a child. Children were killed to control the population -- much as was done in other countries. Children weren't needed to work so was no need for large numbers.

I went to a wedding. The girl had a tattoo on her shoulder. You could see the tattoo because the gown was off her shoulders. I have forgotten the shape. It might have been a bird. Instead of looking at the gown, I kept looking at the tattoo. Ginger, thank you.

I thought Shaddocks might have been fish. Now, after reading on, I find out Shaddocks are trees. Bligh describes the Shaddock trees as "full of fruit." I thought the breadfruit very pretty with the lime color. What do the Shaddock trees and their fruit look like?

I am enjoying Bligh's description of the appearance of the people, their actions at dinner and how they treat him and each other. Bligh seems to like social gatherings. Still, I don't know him well enough to make a decision about his complete character. Did he act differently with his crew?

Kidsal, it is very disturbing to read about the killing of babies. One family had eight children, all eight were murdered.

Hats, Your welcome my friend.

History of the shaddock tree

Ah, I was going to investigate the shaddock. Now I know it was a forerunner of grapefruit, a favorite of mine. I was also curious about the fish with the glowing spots, the 'blubber'. I found this:

"June 27th, evening The great blubber fish that ws left in a large tub of water on deck last night was not to be seen as a fish this morning, but as atoms of one, floating about in the water. Several of these species of fish possess this wonderful power of falling to pieces in the water, or violently exploding themselves, & each separate atom has life & motion, & I believe eventually developes into a perfect fish again."

The creature is identified in the "Scientific's" reports as the fire salp, Pyrosoma spinosum, a bioluminescent planktonic organism formed of a sock-shaped colony up to 60 feet long and made up of millions of individuals.

Tattooing certainly is popular today. All my grandchildren have at least one tattoo, and some of the older generation are sporting them as wel

We hear about Fletcher Christian from time to time, and always he is shown as being promoted and trusted. He is first given a watch, then made a lieutenant. Bligh was drastically short of officers, and needed to promote someone into that role. Christian was put in charge of one of the 'wood and water' parties at Adventure Bay, and was delegated to escort one of the chiefs on board ship.

The Preface in my edition notes that Bligh knew Fletcher Christian before the Bounty. In his last command with the West India trade, Christian was "a resentable young man who, in order to learn his trade, was serving as a seaman before the mast while messing with the midshipmen. Finding this young man an apt pupil, Bligh tutored him in the arts of navigation..." When given the command of the Bounty, Bligh apppointed his young pupil as master's mate.

There is a personal relationship here that one would think would inspire loyalty.Is there more to it than we know? I have read nothing so far that would suggest an explanation.

Babi

Babi, Thanks for the information of the blubber fish I found it "very" interesting,

Pat H: I've heard that about tattoos changing as bodies get heavier. It really is very interesting how people are drawn to have them done. Something about them permanently changing the body must make them extremely significant. I wonder, though, today do young people think of how very permanent they are when they are such a fad?

Kidsal and Hats: I was shocked about the murder of the children as a means of controlling the population in a small land. The example of the 8 children in one family - you'd think that they would have created some sort of birth control in the society. Well, maybe they did and we just didn't hear about it. I can perhaps understand better the situation where a child was fathered by royalty and they killed the child because they didn't want competition for a kingship mucking up the line of succession.

What did you think of Bligh's idea about moving some of the Tahitian people to Australia where there was so much land without people?

Hats and Ginger: What a surprise to find out the shaddock was a form of grapefruit! Thank you for the link, Ginger. I love grapefruit, but can't eat it anymore because of all the warnings about not mixing it with medications. I just stay away from it now.

Babi: I was so sure the "blubber" was a jellyfish! Bligh described the long tendrils. Now to find out it was something else! Do you suppose the fire salp, Pyrosoma spinosum, is related to the jellyfish or a form of jellyfish? Now I'm wondering if it was bits of the fire salp floating on the water that created the luminescence described in the Aubrey novels?

A few years ago, the Boston science museum had a huge exhibit of jellyfish. Did anyone see it? It was fascinating! There are so many different kinds. Some are so beautiful! We learned to stay away from them where I grew up on the water. They'd come floating in during August when the water got warmer. The sting from the tentacles is terrible. Now they say you can put....meat tenderizer, I think it is....on the sting to take away the pain.

I just found this about the fire salp. Nope, not jellyfish.

"CHAIN-JELLY or COMMON SALP: Although described as a jelly, this organism is quite unrelated to the common jellyfish. Indeed, it belongs to a much more advanced place in the evolutionary scale, where it almost became a vertebrate, but for some unknown reason retreated and became more primitive in appearance. The long double chains are really only one phase in its life history, the colonial phase, and are formed asexually from a solitary parent by a budding process somewhat like that of certain plants. Each of the new individuals is able to produce eggs and sperms, and the eggs once fertilised hatch into tiny tadpole-like larvae which eventually grow into solitary individuals similar to the colonial form, but still clearly distinguishable. The solitary individuals then become parents of the new colonial generation.

The commonest New Zealand salp, Thalia, often occurs in enormous numbers in open waters particularly in summer months, and their presence in the water is quite unmistakable even to the casual observer. They seem to be a favourite diet of the snapper, particularly about spawning time, though being largely water they would not seem to be particularly nutritious and are often passed right through the alimentary canal without any sign of their being digested. A close relation of the chain-jelly is the fire salp."

http://www.teara.govt.nz/1966/F/FireSalp/FireSalp/en

Here are some photos of salps:

http://www.mar-eco.no/mareco_news/2004/the_pyrosome_story

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Babi: Bligh certainly seems to be rewarding Fletcher Christian with promotions and assignments. Bligh says very little about his relationships with his men, including Christian. We are all probably aware that Christian becomes the leader of the mutiny, so everything we read about him, however little, is important. Christian came from the Isle of Man, where Bodie is from. His family had important connections. I wonder if this had anything to do with his promotion?

From everything I've read about Christian, he seems to be popular, attractive, bright, a good seaman, and connected. One thing that is important, but not very clear, in Bligh's account is that Christian was one of the men assigned to be in charge of the breadfruit in the tents on land. Christian and some others stayed on the island while some of the other men stayed on the ship. This must have made a difference in relationships with the Tahitians. I read that Christian married a Tahitian woman during this stay.

I'm off to New London to check on my parents. I'll be back tonight.

Ginger, that is a great article about the Shaddock tree. I never would have thought of the grapefruit. Thank you.

I just found out something interesting about boats from my dad down at the nursing home. I told him about our discussion about the copper on the bottom of ships to protect against shipworm. He knew just what I was talking about.

We always had a small boat when I grew up - a wooden motor boat that my dad used for fishing and motoring around the Thames River in New London. It was all wood. I asked him why it didn't get wrecked by shipworm since it had a wooden bottom - no copper coating - just paint. Listen to this! THE PAINT HAD COPPER IN IT. He painted the bottom once a year and the copper in the paint protected it against shipworm!

marni, WOW that is very" interesting. Please tell your dad I said thank you for sharing his knowledge with us.

Is anybody watching the TV show "Survivor"? I'm just watching it now. It takes place in the Cook Islands (named after Captain Cook). They are in the South Pacific just west of the Society Islands. To win immunity, the teams just had to answer the question "What was the name of the ship on which occurred the most famous mutiny in history?" And of course the answer was the "Bounty"!!!

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/oceania/ck.htm

Nuts I just switched to dish and don't see it listed. That'll learm me durn me

Oh, sorry, Ginger. It's on CBS 8:00 to 9:00 p.m. EST on Thursday nights. It will be on for a number of weeks more!

marni, I can get CBS so guess I just missed it.

I stumbled across a portrait that you might be interested in. When Captain Bligh first arrives at Tahiti, he is chagrined to find that his friend, Omai, from a prior visit on Captain Cook's 3rd voyage, had died. Here is a portrait of Sir Joseph Banks and Omai and someone named Daniel Charles Solander (2nd portrait down), along with some other portraits of Sir Joseph Banks. Click on a portrait to enlarge:

http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/person.asp?LinkID=mp00240

Here are some portraits of Captain James Cook:

http://www.npg.org.uk/live/search/person.asp?search=ss&sText=james+cook&LinkID=mp01012

Daniel Charles (Carlsson) Solander Just for anyone who wants to know -

Solander was a Swedish botanist who studied under Linnaeus -and was a Librarian and Keeper at the British Museum - He came from a family devoted to science.

He accompanied Cook on his first voyage as an assistant to Joseph Banks - he probably did the hard yards for Banks, who although genuine and influential (and nowadays revered) was more of an adventurous dilettante in his younger days.

Solander invented a box to carry specimens which has developed into the Archival Box we all know and love - known as the Solander Box.

He was an honoured and respected member of the Royal Society who commemorated him in Wedgewood's plaque.

There are many portraits, engravings and lithographs of him and also a portrait medallion in jasper by Josiah Wedgewood which is housed in the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney.

An area in the Sydney Botanical Gardens is named for him - the Solander Garden - as is the plant, solanum solanum one of the nightshades.

Marni, that is fascinating! "The paint had copper in it." thank you for sharing.

Gumtree, I would love to see that plant.

Marni, I did think Bligh's solution for the islanders was interesting. He thought if the islanders with so many children would join with the people in New Holland, these people had land and not enough people, then, the problem of destroying children would end. Do you think the islanders had more than one reason for killing their children? I see where Bligh says it was a way of population control. Could there also have been religious reasons, some ritualistic reasons for killing the children? When children are murdered, is this called infanticide?

Gumtree: That is so interesting about Daniel Charles Solander. I have never heard of him before and to think of all those things named after him! We're coming upon very interesting information reading this book!

I'll see if I can find any pictures of items named after him.

Hats: I thought Bligh's thoughts about moving people around were interesting, too. It's almost hard to imagine someone considering that. After all, the native people had lived there for.....who knows how long? That was their country, small though it may have been. This made me think that Bligh was forgetting the human element and thinking more in terms of scientific. But, then again, he was appalled at the sacrifice of so many children.

You've got me thinking now about Michener's novel Hawaii Didn't he have a section about warfare among Polynesian islanders and how one group decided to leave in order to save themselves and find a new land? They took off in canoes and settled.....where? Or were they the original settlers of the Hawaiian islands? Golly, it's been a zillion years since I read that book. But it does appear the islanders did leave areas to seek out new lands. The Polynesian people were extremely talented seamen and could travel amazing distances in their canoes.

Now I'm thinking of Thor Hyderhahl's book Kon Tiki. Was it a raft/boat of Polynesian people that he was copying when he made that famous voyage? That's another one I read a zillion years ago.

As for killing their children, I know I read 2 reasons, per Bligh - The Tahitians killed their children for population control because they had only so much food and space on the islands. And they killed them to get rid of any competition for the throne. I don't think I read about any religious ritualistic killling. Yes, I do believe that would be called infanticide.

Did anyone find other reasons that they killed their children?

What did you all think about the warfare among the various tribal groups?

Well, I'm not having good luck finding photos of the Solander items. I did find many articles about Daniel Solander. Botany Bay was apparently named after him and Dr. Herman Spring, both hired by Sir Joseph Banks, and botanists on Cook's 1st voyage. It was originally called "Botanist Bay."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Solander

Here are a couple of links to the Solander Box

Scroll down on this one for the phtos of the boxes and on the very bottom the price of various size boxes conservation by Design Solander Box

Here are a few more Marni - don't you love finding out about this stuff - who would have guessed that there was so much to uncover reading this story.

there is a trail in Botany Bay National Park called Banks-Solander Track -- 1 km, 30 minutes, easy

This short nature trail, which branches off from the Yena Trail, starts a short distance from the Discovery Centre. It's a self-guided track which gives you a fascinating insight into the species that Joseph Banks and Daniel Solander, Cook's botanists, collected in 1770.

There is a Historical Novel Society Magazine Solander

The Australian Bio of Solander

Art work of Banks and Solander collected plants

Well, infanticide was a reality for a number of groups of people with limited means as a method to population control. Most pre-modern birth control methods were not reliable. Most cultures that practice infanticide also practice abortion of some sort, so it is likely many women tried to kill the child before he or she was born. And it is generally infanticide, the child is killed right away as an infant, rather than any attachment allowed to be form. Unfortunately it is only in the modern society that euthanasia is not a necessity, so it's a bit weird that societies all over the world today are advocating for it (mostly, of course, of inconvenient old women, not of rich men for sure, don't think for a moment that as many women as men are killed for being old or inconvenient in the Netherlands and other places).

Generally life in even the best "primitive" societies requires a great deal of adherence to cultural norms for the society to be able to live within its means, and they cultural norms often include horrific practices for population control, distribution of resources and other needs.

I don't understand why it is more understandable to kill an infant of the future king than to kill any infant? "I can perhaps understand better the situation where a child was fathered by royalty and they killed the child because they didn't want competition for a kingship mucking up the line of succession." You can just simply say that the child isn't eligible. Maybe I'm missing something?

Anyway, other societies, in the Americas for example, practiced the ritualistic killing of adults. Some practiced the ritualistic killing of elders, some Siberian cultures, for example, and some North American Indian cultures--again, where Oregon State is moving towards and other Western Cultures (and, no, it's not always about an incurable disease regardless of age, it is in practice a convenient way to do away with old people). I'm not sure which is more humane or less abhorrent, killing adults or infants?

I think Bligh was right on the money suggesting the relocation rather than the murder of infants. Even if it is the cultural norm and the people practice it, humans are genetically predisposed to bond with their children--I can't imagine it was ever easy.

Then there is the old human stand-by to population control: warfare to kill young and sexually reproductive males, and now females in the modern scheme.

Blech.

Kleo

The fire salps are, indeed, primitive chordates, in the phylum Chordata, because they are closely related to the vertebrates, rather than the phylum Cnidaria, the taxonomic home of the jellyfish, sea anemones and related invertebrates.

Kleo

MARNI, as far as relationships with the Island women, I don't think it mattered whether the men were stationed on shore or not. I noticed a line early on in which Bligh noted, after a large gathering of the natives on board ship, that all the male vistors left at sunset. The specification of gender leads me to believe that the women visitors did not.

There was acknowledged intimacy between the women and the sailors of the Bounty. The South Seas natives were quite free in that respect. We already know Fletcher Christian took a wife there, tho' we haven't reached that point in the reading of the log. I wonder if any of the other men thought of their native consorts as 'wife'? Historically, I would think not.

Babi

Marni and Barbara- thanks for the Solander links - we learned about him at school along with Cook and Banks - (Bligh too!). I didn't really expect anyone to be very interested in him as he doesn't come into the Bligh story but he was the driving force behind the real botanical work done on Cook's voyages.

We go to Sydney next month so will check out the Solander walktrails in the Botany Bay Park- The coastal scenery there is spectacular -haven't been there for years!

Barbara: Great Solander links! The photos and illustrations are wonderful. I found it fascinating to read about the intention of Banks to have the botanists' illustrations printed. The project went so far that the copper plates were engraved. But Solander died and Banks never finished the project. You folks who read the Audubon bio last year - Does this remind you of Audubon's project making the folios of The Birds of America? Engraving and print production back then was such a huge and expensive, time-consuming effort. Didn't it take at least 10 years for Audubon's elephant folios to be completed?

Gumtree: Those botanical walks look lovely! What a wonderful place to be able to meander!

Kleo: Thank you for your thoughts on infanticide. I have not been aware of societies' ritualistic killing of the elderly. Can you tell us more about this?

The Tahitians did use "the old human stand-by" of warfare. There were a number of instances cited by Bligh of warfare between the island people where it seems many of them were killed.

I found Tinah's situation to be somewhat pathetic. He had been chief, but, if I understood this correctly, the role was passed on to a royal child who was kept very protected while young (was he adopted? I'll have to look back and check). Tinah and his wife were still very important and they worked actively with the British to maintain relationships that benefitted each party. Tinah begged Bigh to take him and his wife to England when the Bounty left. It seemed Tinah was expecting to be killed by competition for the throne as soon as the British left. I wonder if he was killed?

Babi: You're right. The Tahitian women did stay aboard. I read something in the Alexander book that suggested those who stayed on shore had greater freedom and time to intermingle and socialize with the natives and the culture, develop close - even marital - relationships with some island women, were perhaps able to become more a part of the island life style than those who stayed on the ship, suggesting some found reason to stay on Tahiti and, in that state, were willing to leave their homeland of England behind forever.

Acting Midshipman Peter Heywood, Fletcher Christian's friend, also from the Isle of Man, was married to and had a child with a Tahitian woman, and was tattooed extensively, according to the Alexander book. This became important later on because Heywood was one of the mutineers captured and brought back to England for trial. This part of the story is not covered by Bligh in his account.

In the late 1780Õs when the Bounty visited Tahiti, its culture had already changed quite drastically as the result of CookÕs visit and other earlier European intrusions. BlighÕs precaution of having the doctor examine the men to check for active venereal infections was quite like a futile precaution since venereal infections were already in the native population.

Later European intrusion and collonization continued to corrupt the native culture. For an account of Tahitian culture a century later read ÒNoa NoaÓ, Paul GauguinÕs verbal picture of Tahiti in the 1890Õs. This short book is inprint today at either B&N or Amazon. Also a French version is available on-line fro the Project Guttenberg Web Page. I could not find an English version on-line.

I found the linked site with examples of Tahitian Tattoos interesting because I can not recall seeing modern American tattoos in the style of the illustrations on the link. In contrast I can count on seeing examples of our East Texas Caddo Indian body art during the course of watching most NBA televised games.

Hats based on my observation largely from the Tonight ShowÕs ÒJaywalkingÓ segment, I would guess at least 50 % of American Females between 20 and 30 carry some sort of body art today.

Marni, I read a lot about it as a teenager when I started reading my grandfather's works. He studied Siberian culture during his explorations of the area, and it was a practice in at least one of the Siberian tribes he studied. I read about it in some North American Indian cultures and studied paleoanthropological evidence of cultures that did not practice this, who obviously allowed their elderly to live long beyond their ability to provide for themselves. It was a very unpleasant topic and has forever clouded my thinking against "mercy killings" of the terminally ill and suffering, in particular by starving people to death in medical surroundings--it's just too similar. I couldn't possibly provide any unbiased or useful information.

Kleo

Harold, I'd guess you're right about that, my son's friends are a more tattooed than usual crowd and the women run over 80%, but watching other women in his age-range, I'd guess at 50%. There are certain groups that never tattoo, some of the immigrant groups from the Middle East and South Asia probably have low tattoo percentages with a few making up for the many un-tattooed, as some of these cultures have intense tribal tattooing histories.

Kleo

Harold, that is a very large group of women. I remember when only men would wear body art. Thank you for listing the book "Noa Noa" by Paul Gauguin. I would like to read it.

When writing about ourselves in a journal, it is easy to see and write our good points. Will we truthfully tell about our flaws? In other words, can we trust William Bligh's journal as the total truth? In his journal, how will he handle the coming mutiny?

The people on the islands seem very hospitable and open. They willingly tell about their religion, share their foods, and help out when the crew is in trouble. For example, Teenah and two other people travel to the boat during the storm to see if everything is alright. One lady is so upset about catastrophe coming to their ship she scratches herself with a shark tooth to show her pain.

The islanders have been at war with one another at one point. What did they use for weapons? What is a cloth plant?

I am finding it hard to see the man William Bligh through his words. His writing is interesting. I just feel like there are facts about the islanders, some about the crew but nothing about himself, his private feelings. The book reads like a "log."

I checked back in the Alexander book for info about Tynah, after the Bounty left. When the HMS Pandora landed at Tahiti in 1791, hunting for the Bounty mutineers, Tynah was still alive and "the stately king," 6' 4" tall, approx. 40 years old.

Harold: I think it is fascinating and sad to see how very quickly the Tahitians were affected from cultural and physical contact with Europeans, considering how few ships apparently had stopped there since Cook had arrived in the islands. I read that the men of the Pandora were surprised when they did not find the idyllic paradise which had been described to them by sailors from the Bounty.

I read an interesting article about the impact of European culture on the South Pacific island culture. One theory about this impact is called the "fatal impact thesis."

"The fatal impact thesis is a variety of historical idealism embracing the following propositions: contact between Pacific Islanders and Europeans was an epistemological shock to the former, who classified the latter as supernatural; contact was also a psychological shock, in which the islanders questioned their own identities and lost their sense of mastery of their own situations; contact was a cultural shock in which role expectations became confused and normal responses became inappropriate. Altogether, the European encounter was such a severe cultural and psychological shock as to have fatal consequences for populations and cultures alike. The introduction of exotic diseases and tobacco and alcohol use were both biologically and socially destructive; while the introduction of values such as materialism, practices such as prostitution, and a new religion that was not rooted in the existing cultural fabric caused demoralization and anomie. The "fatal impact" thesis thus holds that the effects of contact on a pristine society were wholly deleterious. The interpretation is perfectly congruent with the eighteenth-century "noble savage, civilized decadence" dualism. While a good deal of the destruction was caused by material agents (microbes, alcohol, industrial products), the "fatal impact" thesis is distinguished by its emphasis on the intellectual and emotional consequences of contact."

The article: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jwh/14.1/campbell.html

Kleo: Your words made me think back to my mother-in-law a few years ago. She lived in an assisted living apartment in CT. Her good friend, right across the corridor, had multiple schlerosis. They visited every day. One day the friend left to visit family and she never returned. My MIL found out later that her friend had committed suicide with the aid of Dr. Kervorkian, the first person in CT to do so. She was surrounded by her immediate family when it happened. My MIL was so shocked and never had an inkling of what was to happen. I have very mixed feelings about this. Obviously, so does our society.

Hats: You raised some very important questions. "Can we trust William Bligh's journal as the total truth? In his journal, how will he handle the coming mutiny?

Bligh certainly was writing for the public and he had to protect himself, his reputation, his family. He did seem to be taking his words directly from his journal. I get the feeling that what he says really did happen, at least from his perspective. I don't get the feeling he is lying. But he certainly leaves out a lot. We will be reading all of his own words of this account; but even when we have finished, we will not know the whole story by any stretch of the imagination. We can read from other sources to find out more and find different perspectives.

I certainly recommend, again, Caroline Alexander's The Bounty as a fantastic, carefully documented history of the mutiny for anyone who is interested in reading more about this famous event. It provides many perspectives which are backed up by exerpts from letters, logs, journals, court transcriptions, etc.

Marni, I definitely feel like William Bligh is telling the truth. This is one reason I am glad to read his account. I had missed your earlier recommendation of Caroline Alexander's book. Thanks for posting it again and also the link telling about interaction between Pacific Islanders and Europeans. I bet reading another book would fill in other details. I am glad to read Bligh's account too, even with the gaps in information.

I don't read the reason for the men just leaving from the ship. I suppose Bligh couldn't lose any of his men. He wanted those men back as quickly as possible. Why did the men take off and leave the ship? I guess the men are beginning to feel discontent.

HATS & MARNI, it is always a question in reading someone's own journal or autobiography, to wonder how self-serving the documentation may be. Laurence Irving (admittedly a strong Bligh partisan) addressed this issue in his Preface. Since what he has to say can be readily checked, I would accept it.

Irving writes: "Anyone who cares to compare his full day-to-day Log with this Narrative will find that the various details which are omitted in this necessarily condensed version, the majority are incidents which are creditable to Bligh himself."

The advent of the Europeans, with their advanced science and technology, their iron tools, their great ships, was bound to have an unsettling impact on the natives of the Islands. These early contacts with men like Cook and Bligh at least treated fairly and honestly with the natives. I thought Moannah, in making a ceremonial speech on behalf of Bligh, expressed clearly what was important to the natives and why they were friendly to these early British seamen. "..that we were good friends; and therefore he exhorted them to commit no thefts: he told them to bring their pigs, coconuts, and bread-fruit, and they would receive good things in return; that we took nothing without their consent".

Babi

Babi, thank you for the Laurence Irving quote.

I have been trying to find detailed information on the history of this book such as when did Bligh write it? When and by whom was it published.? Yet I can find nothing about it!. It is not in the B& N catalog and the Amazon listing of the in-print paperback gives no real information on its origin or history. Also the Project Guttenberg site that gives the complete on-line text tells us nothing about its origin and it is never listed in the bibliographies of my several secondary sources including the 1982 Bligh Biography, ÒCaptain Bligh and His MutiniesÓ by Gavin Kennedy that I used in the earlier Seniorsnet Bounty discussion.

I know that after BlighÕs return to England and his acquittal at the mandatory Court Martial that all RN Captains are subject to after the loss of their ship, he wrote several published documents in defense of criticism that had been published by several people principally ChristianÕs Brother and Peter Heywood. In these his purpose was clearly the defense of his reputation. That does not mean they are false, but they must be judged with that fact in mind. BlighÕs critics too had their own agenda to which Bligh is entitled to make his reply. I have a facsimile copy of BlighÕs handwritten log kept on his open boat voyage to Timor after the mutiny. In this he tells of the Mutiny and names the names of both participants and loyalists but does not touch the complete story as this book does.

I am not critical of this book, yet the question of Blighs purpose in this writing and its authenticity has been raised in previous posts and I cannot find answers that would be helpful in formulating Judgment of its value.Has anyone further information on this books history that has aluded my search?

I agree that Bligh is not lying. What is left out is mostly what he didn't notice. For instance, it doesn't occur to him until after the mutiny that the most likely persons to have tried to cut the cable were some of the seamen. We hear very little of what the men are doing all this time.

Harold: I hunted for information about when Bligh wrote his narrative about the voyage and mutiny. In the Pacific Union College Pitcairn Islands Study Center, which has a large collection of books and historical papers about the incident, I found in their bibliography that a narrative by Bligh was published in 1790:

William A. Bligh, A Narrative of the Mutiny on Board His Majesty's Ship Bounty (London: G Nichol, 1790)

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/studycenter/books-papers.shtml

In the bibliography of Carolyn Alexander's book The Bounty, the following two items are cited among others:

Bligh, William. A Narrative of the Mutiny, on Board His Majesty's Ship Bounty; and the Subsequent Voyage of Part of the Crew, in the Ship's Boat, From Tofoa, one of the Friendly Islands, to Timor, a Dutch Settlement in the East Indies, London: G. Nichol, 1790.

Bligh, William. A Voyage to the South Sea, Undertaken by Command of His Majesty, for the Purpose of Conveying the Bread-Fruit Tree to the West Indies in His Majesty's Ship the Bounty commanded by Lieutenant William Bligh. Including an Account of the Mutiny on Board the Said Ship and the Subsequent Voyage of Part of the Crew, in the Ship's Boat, From Tofoa, one of the Friendly Islands, to Timor, a Dutch Settlement in the East Indies, London: G. Nichol, 1792.

So, it looks to me as if Bligh wrote his first narrative in 1790 and the revised version in 1792.

Hats: I agree that it seems probable that the men are beginning to feel discontent. It seems to me that an important factor leading to the mutiny must have been the length of time the crew had to remain in the islands - to collect enough breadfruit plants and ensure their survival, and to wait til the weather was appropriate to sail back west to deliver the breadfruit to the West Indies - and the people and lifestyle they learned to love while staying in the islands.

Life on the island must certainly have been easier than life on the ocean. It sounds like Bligh took off periodically to visit sights and to attend island affairs. His men, without the close guard of posted marines, must have been living, to a certain extent, a life of leisure and enjoyment even though they had been assigned tasks to attend to.

Babi: Thank you so much for sharing exerpts from Irving and Moannah's speech. I'm glad you pointed out how the islanders were sharing their food with the British crew. They shared so much food that at times they were even short of some items. We already know that the islanders practiced infanticide in order to control the population. It must have been a burden on them to have an additional 45 or so people there for 6 months eating their fill.

They shared and expected the British to share in return, which they did. However, there was a lot of "pilfering" going on. You pointed out that Bligh had expected the islanders to take nothing without the consent of the British. Bligh indicated that when pilfering did occur, the island leaders were extremely helpful and diligent in getting the stolen items back to the Bounty.

As Pat H pointed out, the ship's cable was cut. This seems to have been the most important crime described by Bligh. As Pat H mentioned, Bligh assumes it was done by the islanders and it dawned on him only later that it had been done by his own crew.

I agree with you, Pat, that Bligh seems to have left out mostly what he didn't notice and that we hear very little of what the men are doing all this time. Although some have pointed out that the captain's log may not have contained Bligh's observations about the men, his narrative is not his log. He could certainly have written more about what he had noticed on board leading up to the mutiny if, in fact, he had noticed anything. I'm not sure he did. Perhaps one reason was, as Kleo mentioned earlier, Bligh was simply extremely busy.

This is also a caste society, the British of the 18th century. Bligh would be given all the benefits of a bit of doubt, and he would not have been raised to consider that a lower class person could possibly be righter than a ship's captain. He also probably had a blind eye to any and all inconveniences his crew suffered under him. For example, he puts the men on limited rations. The captain of a ship has a completely different stock of rations for his dining pleasure. While the men were being given less water than they needed it's highly unlikely than Bligh ever did without wine with his meals.

Again, he has no reason to offer any evidence that supports the mutineers, as it will cost him his career, and it could cost his family their livelihood.

Still, I suspect many events are just as he saw them, although filtered greatly by the fact that he was raised to think he was a better sort of human being than those raised with so much less, where every meal was a matter of doubt.

The seamen are weighing not just their life on the island versus their life on the ship, but also versus what they will return to in England: a caste society in which they are darn close to the bottom rung, and even if they're not, the least turn of bad luck can promptly dump them there. Poor in Tahiti in the 18th century versus poor in England? At least one could not be hanged for stealing food to live in 18th century Tahiti.

But again, the captain's duties were immense. My husband is a retired Marine. Sometimes before an extended tour of duty on board ship, the military takes the families out for a cruise on the battleship or whatever. During one such cruise the captain's voice came over the intercom. Every sailor and marine on the ship froze to hear what he had to say--it was clear how important this voice was. It's a very directional sort of command, the captain watches what his crew does by how well his ship is run, the crew obeys the captain via their direct superiors. Not a lot of direct contact.

Kleo

Kleo: Thanks for sharing the info about your husband's career and the experience on the ship. Did you have to travel often being a marine's wife?

I first became interested in the marines when I read about the Barbary Wars and the 8 marines who were assigned to William Eaton to help organize the army of the ex-pasha of Tripoli and take Tripoli after the USS Philadelphia surrendered. It's interesting to look at the role of the marines then and now. I guess they've always been an amphibious military organization with duties on land and sea and now, of course, in the air.

It's interesting to think of Bligh, as captain, having plenty of food and drink while rationing supplies to his men. I was thinking of the other side of the story considering Bligh's reduced quarters and dining/work space, no promotion, additional responsibilities, no marines, etc. I was imagining Bligh feeling somewhat put upon, although he doesn't really indicate those feelings in his narrative. I suppose all of these factors added to the state of affairs on the Bounty.

HAL, it is my understanding that the first narrative account written by Bligh was in the nature of a report for the purposes of his Court-martial. It would have been a fairly succinct summary of events. It occurs to me, that he would have felt no necessity to justify himself in the matter of the mutiny, as their is no justification in the Royal Navy for mutiny against the Captain of the ship. Bligh would have needed only to show that he did all in his power to save his ship.

The copy I am reading is an unabridged re-edition of the 1792 book. In his 'Advertisement', Bligh explains that he is writing this more inclusive version "for the purpose of communicating early information concerning an event which had attracted the public notice: and being drawnup in a hasty manner, it required many corrections." The earlier 'hasty' narrative being, I suppose, the one prepared for the court-martial.

MARNI, I thought the speech Manooah made, on Bligh's behalf, said that the British did not take things without the consent of the natives, which is why they considered them friends. I don't think the phrasing suggests the opposite, that the natives did not take things w/o the consent of the British.

KLEO, it is evident that some of the men liked life on the islands, and wanted to remain there. I think it was not uncommon for a seaman to 'jump ship' if they wanted to stay where they were. It was more difficult, however, on an island. There was a limit to how far they could run, and they definitely could not 'lose themselves' in a populous city. To mutiny and take a ship,however, was a dangerous prospect. If it failed, every mutineer would most certainly hang.

Babi

The man named Isaac Martin strikes one of the natives. Bligh gives Isaac Martin nineteen lashes. Bligh's log, so far, does not tell why Isaac Martin lashed out at the native. On ships, are cases tried and given a hearing? Do captains have the right to make immediate decisions without any input from other officers on the ship?

I can not judge Bligh nor Isaac Martin as wrong or right. I do not have all the facts.

The cable of the ship is cut. Is it possible the men were ready to head back to England, had grown tired of remaining on the island? Is this why the cable is cut? I find it hard to believe that men would so quickly forget their native home and want to live on a foreign island. If they were convicts, I could see their not wanting to go back home and cutting the cable to remain longer on the island. Were any men on the ship wanted for crimes?

Also, all of the islanders might not have liked the presence of Bligh and his crew on the island. Perhaps, one of the islanders cut the cable.

Babi: Re "I thought the speech Manooah made, on Bligh's behalf, said that the British did not take things without the consent of the natives, which is why they considered them friends." I guess I got that backwards. I thought it was that the British did not want the islanders to take things.

Hats: Re "On ships, are cases tried and given a hearing?" I was wondering this very thing. I've read about situations where a sailor had to be tried and the captain had to wait for a....quorum? of officers to convene for a courtmartial, sometimes held at sea. But in what types of cases, I don't know. And what if the ship is all alone in the vast sea like the Bounty is alone in the Pacific?

We know that Bligh could assign punishment for certain offenses by flogging to non-officers. We've seen it in his narrative. (I read that commissioned officers were not flogged.)

I read that certain of the captured Bounty mutineers were hanged, but that they had to be transported to England first where they were tried in a courtmartial. I also read about a near-mutiny on board the HMS Narcissus 9 years before the mutiny on the Bounty, where 5 of the would-be mutineers had been hanged and 2 more sentenced to floggings of 200 and 500 lashes respectively, and the leader of the mutiny had been hanged in chains. But I don't know if a courtmartial was held.

When I first read about the cable being cut, I assumed an islander had cut the cable in order to take part of it away to use - a pilfering. But, then it seemed that a would-be mutineer did it in order to cause the ship to float away. Wouldn't you think, though, that there would always be men assigned to keep watch on the ship and figure out that it was floating away and then do something about it? So what was the point? A threat?

I thought it was very interesting how the Tahitians could practice medicine. Bligh described several instances of how illness/injury was treated in a sophisticated manner. An amputation had been performed with the stump neatly taken care of. It was almost as if the islanders were more advanced medically than the British when you think of the disaster of the man with asthma who was bled and got an infection.

I loved Bligh's description of Iddeah, Tinah's wife. She seemed so strong, powerful, and proud. Bligh said she was one of the most intelligent persons he met with in Otaheite. Bligh wrote, "It is not common for women in this country to go to war, but Iddeah is a very resolute woman, of a large make, and has great bodily strength."

Apparently, Iddeah had a lover (Bligh mentioned a "gallant") who was Tinah's servant; Tinah knew about it and encouraged it, according to Tinah's brother. I was amused to read how Iddeah also had a "hoard" in the captain's cabin which she "enriched" periodically from her husband's hoard. She and Tinah kept gifts on the Bounty as "being more secure."

The women wrestled in the island's wrestling matches and seemed as good as the men. They even wrestled with men.

I thought Tinah, on the other hand, was described by Bligh as somewhat cowardly and weak. It seemed he drank a lot of Ava and got drunk. Bligh wrote, "...but courage is not the most conspicuous of his virtues. When I promised to leave with him a pair of pistols....he told me, that Iddeah would fight with one, and Oediddee with the other." I enjoyed the way Bligh described how Tinah had to be fed by others. He would not feed himself. When no one else was around to feed him, Bligh had to feed Tinah.

Hats asked earlier about the cloth tree or plant. It was quite fascinating to see how cloth was very valuable to the Tahitians. They gave it as gifts and used it in religious ceremonies. I wondered, too, what plant it was made from.

I read in an article about Sir Joseph Banks that the plant used for the cloth was the Broussonetia papyrifera. In another article I read that this is also called the paper mulberry tree. The United States Exploring Expedition, 1838-1842, looked for this when they visited Tahiti. They had heard the natives made "tapa cloth" from this plant. But by the time this expedition got to Tahiti, they found none of the trees; the natives were no longer using the paper mulberry tree to make their cloth. They now preferred cotton for which they traded when ships arrived.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/1966/B/BanksSirJoseph/BanksSirJoseph/en

http://www.history.navy.mil/ac/exploration/wilkes/wilkes7.html

Photo of Broussonetia papyrifera leaves: http://cookislands.bishopmuseum.org/MM/MX1-4/4P053_Brou-papy_RR_GM1_MX.jpg

Here's an article/photos that says cloth is made from the bark of the plant: http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/collections/ecbot/BarkCloth.htm

I read that when some of the Bounty mutineers went to Pitcairn Island, taking some of the Tahitian men and women, the women used their skills and made the tapa cloth there.

Marni, thank you for the links. I also remember a woman dying cloth red. Did red have a special significance for the islanders?

Hats: I just added a couple more links/photos to that post. I didnt' see anything about red cloth in Tahiti, though.

HATS! I'm so excited! I found something about Tahitian red cloth! It just popped up when I did a search on "Tahiti red cloth." It's an article by someone named Hawkesworth. I have to find out who he was. Maybe a botanist with Banks on a Cook voyage. Here's a bit about the red dye process:

"The colours with which they die this cloth are principally red and yellow. The red is exceedingly beautiful, and I may venture to say, a brighter and more delicate colour than any we have in Europe; that which approaches nearest is our full scarlet, and the best imitation which Mr. Banks's natural history painter could produce, was by a mixture of vermilion and carmine. The yellow is also a bright colour, but we have many as good.

The red colour is produced by the mixture of the juices of two vegetables, neither of which separately has the least tendency to that hue. One is a species of fig, called here Matte, and the other the Cordia Sebestina, or Etou; of the fig the fruit is used, and of the Cordia the leaves.

The fruit of the fig is about as big as a rounceval pea, or very small gooseberry and each of them, upon breaking off the stalk very close, produces one drop of a milky liquor, resembling the juice of our figs, of which the tree is indeed a species. This liquor the women collect into a small quantity of cocoa-nut water: to prepare a gill of cocoa-nut water will require between three and four quarts of these little figs. When a sufficient quantity is prepared, the leaves of the Etou are well wetted in it, and then laid upon a plantain leaf, where they are turned about till they become more and more flaccid, and then they are gently squeezed, gradually increasing the pressure, but so as not to break them; as the flaccidity increases, and they become spungy, they are supplied with more of the liquor; in about five minutes the colour begins to appear upon the veins of the leaves, and in about ten or a little more, they are perfectly saturated with it: they are then squeezed, with as much force as can be applied, and the liquor strained at the same time that it is expressed."

Here's the article: http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~cookproj/archive/gen_rem_tahiti/ht020.html

I have to laugh, thinking of Bligh, stuffy and dignified, having to feed Tinah. You can bet he hated it, but he had to put up with the protocol.

Iddeah sounds like she's twice the man that Tinah is. It's interesting that Bligh can appreciate these qualities in a woman.

That IS quite a picture of Bligh, Pat H!

Speaking of pictures, here is a lithograph of Matavai Bay in Otaheite done on one of Captain Cook's voyages, "the site from which Captain Cook observed the transit of Venus in 1769." I wonder what kind of tree is the lone tree on One Tree Hill?:

http://transits.mhs.ox.ac.uk/objectimages/orig/tahiti1600.jpg

Oh, I found some interesting info and paintings about Captain Cook on a UCLA site when I hunted for info about Hawkesworth. Scroll down to #5 to read about who Hawkesworth was.

http://www.library.ucla.edu/special/scweb/cookcheck1.htm

Here's an illustration of the murder of Captain Cook from this site:

http://www.library.ucla.edu/special/images/cookscans/7600.jpg

I thought it was interesting how Tinah kept Captain Cook's picture and showed it to Bligh. Cook had been very important to the Tahitians.

Gumtree wrote (11/9) about Solander's invention of the Archival Box "we all know and love" Well...If I ever have occasion to get to know a Solander box, I'll try to join the rest of the crowd by learning to love it.

Marni, you mentioned the 2 possible reasons for the killing of new born babies Ð control overpopulation and remove threats to the throne. I agree that they were the only two mentioned by Bligh. Except that he did say there might be some kind of superstition that he wasnÕt aware of. But what is so shocking about the Tahitians killing newborns, when you think of the current rate of abortions in the US?

BlighÕs idea of transplanting some of the people to Holland, as if they were anonymous breadfruit plants, is kind of ridiculous, if you ask me. ~JudyS

For goodness' sake! I found something different - "The Life, Times, and Travels of the Extraordinary Vice-Admiral William Bigh," an "interactive graphic novel" about Bligh. "...this project taps into the definitive collection of Bligh materials housed at the State Library of New South Wales."

http://www.abc.net.au/bligh/

Hi, Judy! Re: "But what is so shocking about the Tahitians killing newborns, when you think of the current rate of abortions in the US?"

I imagine you would get a variety of answers to that question depending on one's interpretation of when human life begins. That has long been an important question in our society and in our courts.

I think when Bligh wrote about transporting people, he meant to "New Holland" in what is now Australia. I believe the Dutch had colonized a section of Australia before the British, and they had also colonized some of Indonesia. This is important in future chapters of our book.

Gumtree: Can you help us out here on the various settlements in Australia and the part where the Dutch were in 1789? Thanks!

hmmm makes you wonder what babies were killed -- I wonder if they controlled inbreeding this way?? Bligh wouldn't have been aware of the history of these folks but there were a finite number of people to choose from to marry or whatever was the way they coupled... and they may have come up years back with their primitive way to preserve the strength and health of the population.

Folks: I just went through part of the interactive graphic story of Bligh. It's fun! I had to download an Adobe Shockwave Active X program (I think that was what it was called) to run it. But I just had to click several buttons to do it. The "automated" version goes very fast - too fast for me to read everything - so I just clicked the right arrow to move the story along.

I tried and where I do have broadband it closed down my internet connection.

Marni, I am very excited about all of the information. I am especially interested in the islanders use of the color red. There are so many good links and good posts. I need to go and catch up before dinner. Thank you for doing so much research.

Marni, after trying twice, and having high-speed, I could not see that interactive link, sorry.
All your other links have worked just great! Thanks!

From what I can understand the red color is made from two types of figs.

"Of this Indian red I shall only add, that the women who have been employed in preparing or using it, carefully preserve the colour upon their fingers and nails, where it appears in its utmost beauty, as a great ornament."

I was struck by so many children in one family being destroyed. I have never heard of so many abortions done in one family here in the United States.

I always think of the islands as peaceful and serene. That is not true. When the islanders went out in their canoes, their canoes could become surrounded by sharks and barracudas. What is the difference between a barracuda and a shark? Which is more dangerous?

Reading various books it seems to me the barracuda is formidable in size - the shark is silent as compared to the barracuda and the shark will strike many times to finish off their prey - I think the barracuda is so large with such big teeth it does the job in one swipe. Certainly it has always been written as the most feared of sea creatures.

Oh, dear. Sounds like some cannot access the "interactive graphic novel" about Bligh. You may have a security program blocking it. Well, we certainly don't need it. It was just kind of fun. Sorry about that.

Hats: It does sound like 2 plants were required to make the red dye: one was a "species of fig, called here Matte, and the other the Cordia Sebestina, or Etou." I don't know what the Etou is. But how interesting to read the detail of combining the two to create that amazing-sounding brilliant red.

I'm so glad you and Barbara are discussing the shark and barracuda. I shuddered when I read about them because I knew that the mutiny was going to be coming up in our next readings! How frightening to think of what was in those waters!

Thank you, Barbara for the information about sharks and barracudas. I'll see if I can find a picture of a barracuda - Sphyraenidae (order Perciformes).....

Oh, gad, here's a Discovery article that begins "Take one look at a great barracuda's toothy grin and you'll understand why it has earned the nickname "Tiger of the Sea." With its sleek, torpedo-like body, dagger-like teeth, and ferocious appetite, the barracuda is built to hunt in the ocean...." They call it "the great eating machine."

Barbara: You're right! Barracudas can be up to 6 feet long!

http://school.discovery.com/schooladventures/planetocean/barracuda.html

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracuda

Here's an article about sharks in Tahiti. It includes "To a diver, Tahiti means sharks Ð tons of sharks that can be observed and enjoyed by both scuba divers and snorkelers alike. With an estimated population of 240,000 residents, Tahiti (more correctly known as French Polynesia) is literally outnumbered by the sharks that inhabit the surrounding reefs and seas. While no one knows the exact number, the shark population is estimated in the millions."

http://www.sportdiver.com/article.jsp?ID=2728

Hats: you say, all of the islanders might not have liked the presence of Bligh and his crew on the island. Perhaps one of the islanders cut the cable

I think you are quite right so far as Bligh's presence on the island being somewhat of a problem for the islanders. They are generous and hospitable people and at first showered Bligh and his men with gifts of food. They did the same with Captain Cook - but their food resources were very limited and only really sufficient for themselves. As we've read they killed many infants in order to keep the population down. I guess we will never know who actually did cut the cable but it's fun to conjecture.

What Dutch settlement?

As far as I'm aware the Dutch did not actually settle in 'New Holland' but many Dutch ships used the west coast of Aust as a navigational aid - They would come by way of the Cape of Good Hope - catch the 'roaring forties' trade winds and when they saw the coast of New Holland they turned north for Batavia - several landed here but soon realised there was no money to be made from spices or trade with the indigenous inhabitants.

Several Dutch ships foundered on the reefs along the western coast - some never to be found again -just think of all those 'pieces of eight'

'Duyfken' was the first Dutch ship to touch on Aust.in 1606- at Cape York Peninsula, the northernmost tip of the continent which Bligh has to pass on his way to Timor. A replica of 'Duyfken' (Little Dove) was built at Fremantle Harbour in the late 1990s

duyfken

The first settlement of Australia was at what is now Sydney when the First Fleet arrived in 1788. The fleet was a convoy of ships transporting convicts, many "for the term of his natural life'.Apart from the ships officers and crews, the guards (and their families) there were only the convicts.

Bligh's notion of transporting the Tahitians to New Holland would have arisen from his knowledge that Britain was already transporting convicts - he probably just thought it would be a good idea for the Tahitians though they would probably have starved here without knowledge of the 'bush tucker' of the Aborigines.

Gumtree, thank you for that information about Bligh's idea. I didn't know whether it was a good idea or a bad idea. Also, thank you for the New Holland information. Marni and Barbara, now I know the difference between a barracuda and a shark. Neither one is friendly. Really interesting that there are so many in the waters of Tahita.

I bet those black pearls in the Tahitian waters are beautiful. Not easy to get to with the presence of so many sharks.

Another comment on the cable: if, as suspected, a sailor cut the cable, I would think it more likely that it was with the hope that the ship would swing around and be damaged. It could not have drifted away, as other anchors were still in place.

Iddeah's shifting of presents from her husband's horde to her own, was to prevent his locker from becoming full. Bligh believed that she thought Tinah would receive no more presents if his locker was full. She was simply keeping space available.

I have been attempting to find out more about why the Chief's children were isolated, but so far have had no luck. The eldest, in particular, is regarded with reverence. The heir to the chiefdom appears to be sacred to the tribe. I suppose his brothers and sisters were kept with him partly for the companionship, and partly to assure that if something happened to the eldest, the next in line would be 'in place'. Too many guesses, here. I'll keep looking.

It would also be interesting to know why the Tutuee tree was taboo; or at least, breaking a branch from it and taking it into a house was taboo. So many intriguing questions keep popping up.

Babi

Babi, I am glad you brought up the cable. I had related the work of the cable to the anchor. Is the cable attached to the anchor? Is the cable very important? I see in your post that the ship could turn around and become damaged. Do you mean by hitting up against a big tree trunk sticking out of the water? The tree trunk than punching a hole in the ship side. I don't remember reading about the cable being repaired.

Is it possible the chief's children were kept separate to protect them from Veneral disease. I have always thought Veneral disease contagious.

Sharks and barracudas would certainly be unwelcome in my swimming hole! Poor Captain Bligh being put out to sea...

Yes, Babi, IÕm also very curious about the taboo regarding that Tutuee branch in the house.

Hats mentioned 8 babies in one family being killed Ð I seem to recall that the family was an important one and somehow the nephew became the adopted heir. Captain Bligh said ÒThe most remarkable instance related to me of the barbarity of this institution was of Teppahoo, the Earee of the district of Tettaha, and his wife, Tetteehowdeeah, who is sister to Otow and considered as a person of the first consequence. I was told that they have had eight children, every one of which was destroyed as soon as born.Ó Here is where Bligh conjectures that the killings could be attributed to some superstition, but I wonder if (since those children were all the nieces and nephews of Òa person of the first consequenceÓ) if their murders were motivated more by a practice of maintaining the status quo as to politics and leadership. ~Judy

Cable

The cable is the heavy rope tied to the anchor, the other end being secured on board the ship. Bligh refers to the incident as an attempt to set the ship adrift, so if there were other anchors, they weren't strong enough to hold the ship. If it had been adrift, it would have been quite likely to drift ashore, run aground, and be damaged, or to hit a rock, which might punch a hole in the hull.

I thought there was a change in Lt.Bligh between the voyage out and the stay at the island. On the way out, he did show concern for the crew in making sure their clothing was dried out as soon as possible after the storms, and noticing. He showed concern for the sailor with asthma who was bled,

It seems to me that the islanders began to distract him from his duty to take care of the crew. The ship's surgeon drank himself to death and Bligh did not notice until the man was almost gone. Bligh goes into great detail about the practices of the natives and pays less attention to the crew.

Could he have begun to 'drink the king's health' with the natives more than he should have?

Oh, great posts today! I've been going through closets pulling out old clothes for a charity that is swinging by to pick up tomorrow.

Gumtree: Thank you so much for the info about Australia! Interesting to hear that Australia was called New Holland but there wasn't a Dutch settlement there. I just took it for granted that there was. The "Duyfken" site is FASCINATING! I'm especially interested because my husband's is of Dutch descent and we have been reading histories of the colonial Dutch in New Netherlands. I'm going to pore through this site more carefully later.

Hats: I would like to see a black pearl. I don't believe I ever have. I wonder how they compare to white pearls?

Babi: I hope you are able to find something about the isolation of the royal children. I was thinking it was for their safekeeping, but didnt' know either. Even Captain Bligh could only talk to them from across the river. Good luck finding info about the tutuee tree and the taboo, also. It would be so interesting to find out more.

Hats: It didn't seem that the islanders thought venereal disease was a big threat at that time, from what Bligh said. I'm thinking it was a bigger threat than they thought, if that was the case. Bligh said some islanders who had venereal disease went off and came back seemingly cured. He was wondering what their medical technique was. But, I don't imagine they were really cured. Maybe the symptoms had been relieved.

Judy: I had forgotten that the family which killed 8 children had been a family of consequence.

Pat H: Thanks for explaining what the cable is. I thought it was attached to the anchor. Whatever the case, Bligh was extremely concerned about what happened and he doesn't show his emotions or concern often!

jbmillican: Good point about Bligh being distracted. Hmmmmm. Was he imbibing Ava with Tinah? I don't see any indication in his narrative of his drinking. However, I read in other accounts that the captain was a big drinker and sometimes got roaring drunk. Some have suggested he was completely drunk shortly before the mutiny. I wonder?????

I believe I read that the Chief's first boy became Chief when he was born and the Chief became his protector. The boy was taken from the family and placed under guardianship until he came of age or the Chief died. Does anyone know what became of the child selected to be the next Dalai Lama -- think he was living in Northwest of U.S.

Week 3 is here! We've reached the exciting chapters in which Captain Bligh describes the mutiny on the Bounty when he and some of his men are set adrift in a 23-foot launch in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. The boat was designed for a maximum of fifteen men and for short distances. They have enough food and water for five days.

Their voyage is one of the most famous voyages in history. We are able to read the details of the captain's experience because he is one of the greatest navigators in history.

Patwest has done a wonderful job posting this week's questions and a map showing the launch's route across the Pacific from the point where Bligh and his men were set adrift.

Here is a model of the open boat that Bligh navigated 3600 miles across the Pacific. It was crafted by Prof. James Norton, Department of Physiology, New England University College of Osteopathic Medicine.

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/images/bounty_launch/sideways.jpg

Here is a more detailed map of the launch's voyage and of the Bounty's voyage after the mutiny. Here also are some paintings and illustrations plus information.

http://www.global-leap.com/events/may2003/Mutiny%20on%20the%20Bounty-%20class%20resource.htm

Here is a painting, 1790, by Robert Dodd of Captain Bligh and some officers and men being set adrift.

http://us.penguingroup.com/static/packages/us/maritime/gallery/images/bounty-gallblighforcedoff-lg.jpg

Here is an old map of New Holland and the surrounding area. You can enlarge any area on it for a better view. For example, you can see where Otaheite, Tofua, Tongataboo, Friendly Islands, Timor, and Batavia are:

http://www.nla.gov.au/mrsid/bin/show.pl?client=raremaps&image=nk1586.sid

JB, a good relationship with the Island natives was important to Britain, as their ships were able to anchor their safely and find food, wood and water in ample supply. The Islands also had the breadfruit which was the purpose of the Bounty's voyage. They were to collect breadfruit trees and convey them to the West Indies.

Someone else commented on Bligh's scientific interests, and I also see evidence of a strong interest in agriculture and gardening. He introduces new plants and establishes gardens wherever he goes. He is very pleased whenever anything introduced to the Islands flourishes and is found helpful to the natives. It seems reasonable, since they are not at sea, that his journal would be filled with the activities on land. His crew seem to be doing fine. The surgeon had been drinking and refusing to exercise from the beginning, and it was only a matter of time before he drank himself to death.

I have had not luck so far finding anything more about the isolation of the Chief's heir. I found a reference to island chiefs bearing the same title as Tinah, but their children were not isolated. If this was a custom peculiar to Otaheite, I may never find an explanation.

Did you notice that particular importance seemed to be placed on a person's hair? If a native of the Island died while away from the Island,it was sufficient if some clippings of his hair could be returned to his family.

And wouldn't I love to know what an 'avee' is; "one of the finest flavored fruits in the world".

Babi

Kidsal: The Dalai Lama has his own official web page which includes all kinds of up-to-date info about what he is currently involved with: http://www.dalailama.com/

Babi: That was interesting to read that about the hair being important. I think many societies find a person's hair to be important after death. In 18th and 19th-century America it was popular to braid the hair of a loved one into a bracelet or place a snip of hair in a locket for remembrance.

I found out what the avee is. On the web it appears in Sidney Parkinson's "Descriptive catalogue of plants, medical, culinary, &c. found on that island," in his Journal of a Voyage to South Seas, p. 69. An edition of the Journal was published in London in 1773, edited and published by Stanfield Parkinson.

"avee. Spondias-dulcis. This is a large stately tree, and often grows to the height of forty and fifty feet: the fruit, which, I believe, is peculiar to these isles, is of an oval shape, yellow when ripe, and grows in bunches of three or four, and is about the size of a middling apple, with a large stringy core: It is a very wholsome and palatable fruit, improving on the taste, which is nearest that of a mangoe; it is strongly impregnated with turpentine, and makes excellent pies when green. The wood serves for building canoes, and for several other purposes."

http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/069.html

I also looked up ava in the catalog:

"ava. Piper-inebrians. The expressed juice of this plant they drink to intoxicate themselves."

There are some neat engraving plates from the Journal on this site, such as:

A native of Otaheite: http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/036.html

Venus Fort at Otaheite: http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/039.html

A Woman & a Boy, Natives of Otaheite: http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/049.html

House and Plantation of a Chief of the Island of Otaheite: http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/052.html

Natives of Otaheite: http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/056.html

Tools and utensils of Otaheite: http://southseas.nla.gov.au/journals/parkinson/109.html

I found, too, when looking up "ava" that "Manuia" (pronounced MAH-noo-yah) means ÒcheersÓ in Tahitian.

So, manuia, everyone!

Marni

Photo of avee, called "Ambarella" (Spondias dulcis) or "Otaheite apple":

http://cookislands.bishopmuseum.org/MM/MX1-4/4P257_Spon-dulc_RR_GM2_MXa.jpg

I found out more about ava, also called kava. It's interesting! Maybe this is what the Otaheitians used to cure venereal disease:

"Kava kava has been used for centuries by pacific islanders in cultural and religious ceremonies to achieve a higher level of consciousness. Kava's narcotic and stimulant effects made it highly popular and it has been drunk only before important religious ceremonies. Kava's cultural role in the South Pacific is beeing compared to with that of wine in Europe. Islanders have used dried kava roots made into a tea to obtain a mild stimulating tonic.

Kava can be found on Tahiti, Hawaii, Fiji, the Micronesian Islands, Samoa and other islands of South Pacific. It grows as a bush and its roots look like bundles of woody, hairy branches. Kava roots contain chemicals called kavapyrones that cause reactions similar to that of pharmaceutical drugs used for depression and anxiety and they are responsible for kava's effects.....

"Kava has been used for thousands of years to produce a wealth of psychological and physical effects. According to studies and observation, kava kava has a stimulating effect on the mind that causes a calming, relaxed feeling of contentment and serenity. It allows the human mind to reach levels of consciousness beyond normal and give a feeling of happiness and sensory enhancement. Studies suggest that kava directly influences the limbic system, one of the oldest developed parts of the brain associated with emotions and other various brain activities. Further research reported in Journal of Medicinal Plant Research shows found that kava reduces muscle tension and relieves stress.

Kava has played a central role in the cultural, economical, political and religious aspects of native South Pacific societies as a social relaxant and ceremonial means to achieve a higher level of consciousness. As a medicinal botanical, kava is reported to reduce anxiety, relax muscle tension, produce analgesic effects, act as a local anesthetic, and have a potential antibacterial benefit.

Kava has been used for more than a century as a treatment for gonorrhea, vaginitis, leucorrhoea, nocturnal incontinence and other aliments of the genitourinary tract. Kava also is said to be a diuretic, useful in the treatment of gout, bronchial congestion and rheumatism. Its primary uses in the United States and Europe, however, are as a stress reliever and muscle relaxant. Kava also is gaining popularity as a sleep aid. Several European countries have approved kava for the treatment of anxiety, insomnia and restlessness on the basis of extensive pharmacological data and positive results in clinical trials."

http://www.vitadiscount.com/kava-research.html

Here's a photo of kava and info from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kava

The Tongan story about the origin of kava was interesting. Showed a couple killing their child - in the Wikipedia article, if you didn't read the whole thing - here it is:

"In the place of Fā'imata on the island of 'Eueiki, close to Tongatapu, there lived a man and his wife. Fevanga and Fefafa were their names. They had a baby daughter called Kava'onau, who had a scaly skin disease (possibly leprosy).

Then once upon a time it happened that an important envoy of the Tu'i Tonga king, Lo'au, came to 'Eueiki, and landed his canoe at the house of Fevanga and Fefafa. Customs required that such a high chief was to be received with an abundant meal. But a famine was over the land, and only a kape (Alocasia macrorrhiza) plant was available with no meat at all. In despair the parents killed their little daughter and baked her as a pig in the same oven as the kape.

Lo'au was impressed by the sacrifice the poor people had made for him. He said that he could not eat from their daughter, and that instead she was to be buried as a chief. He ordered her head to be buried on one place, and her body on another place. And then he left. After a time two new, unknown plants grew from the parts. Fevanga tended them until they were mature. Then a rat came and chewed from the plant which was growing from the head, and was as scaly as the skin of Kava'onau had been. The rat became partly paralysed. Next it chewed from the other plant, growing from the girl's intestines, and the animal recovered and ran away.

Fevanga harvested the plants and brought them to Lo'au's residence in Ha'amea on Tongatapu. There Lo'au announced that the first plant was to be called kava, being the daughter of Fevanga and Fefafa, and that it would be the beverage of chiefs from now on. But like the rat, they would also consume in conjunction the second plant, which was to be called sugar cane, to balance the influence of the kava."

huh I often take a capsule of Kava when I cannot sleep at night - hmmm interesting stuff - and Marni the links to the art work showing the native people are just wonderful to look at - thanks...

Thank you, Barbara. Do the kava tablets really help you sleep?

Pat H: I'm practically falling off my chair laughing as I look at the picture of Queen Elizabeth drinking kava. The line "Consumption of a significant amount of Kava is said to result in "a state of paralysis of the lower limbs and musculature" - Makes me think of Tinah!!!!

I think I'm ready for some kava! MANUIA!

Thanks for the links, showing the boat, Marni.
Bligh and (originally) 18 seamen had to fit into that constricted space.

The provisions on board the small boat, listed by Captain Bligh (p. 109), were 150 lb. bread, 3 bottles of wine,
5 quarts of rum, 20 lb. pork, and water. Since they expected to collect additional water at islands or from rain, water was perhaps not their primary worry.

Bligh estimated that he would have to make the food last for 8 weeks.
Obviously they hoped to find additional food on islands where they stopped.
But after John Norton was killed by some natives, stopping was correctly considered to be more dangerous.

Oh, Mippy, wasn't that scene in Chapter 14 so frightening when Norton was killed. Even with Bligh's unemotional writing style, I got so tense as I read the section leading up to the attack. The natives arrived and their numbers began to increase.

"Soon after other natives came to us; and by noon there were thirty about us....the natives came about us as I expected, and in greater numbers; two canoes also came in from round the north side of the island.....the natives began to increase in number and I observed some symptoms of a design against us.....The beach was lined with the natives and we heard nothing but the knocking of stones together, which they had in each hand. I knew very well this was the sign of an attack.....

".....we began by little and little to get our things into the boat......I carefully watched the motions of the natives, who continued to increase in number.....we all got into the boat except one man who, while I was getting on board, quitted it and ran up the beach to cast the stern fast off.....I was no sooner in the boat than the attack began by about 200 men; the unfortunate poor man who had run up the beach was knocked down, and the stones flew like a shower of shot. Many Indians got hold of the stern rope and were near hauling the boat on shore, which they would certainly have effected if I had not had a knife in my pocket with which I cut the rope. We then hauled off to the grapnel, everyone being more or less hurt. At this time I saw five of the natives about the poor man they had killed, and two of them were beating him about the head with stones in their hands....."

Oh, my gosh!

The natives followed the launch quickly in their canoes with a supply of stones and surrounded Bligh and his men. "I had not an idea that the power of a man's arm could throw stones from two to eight pounds weight with such force and exactness as these people did."

How did Bligh and his men manage to get away from the natives?

Why did the natives attack the British?

Marni, I am not that far along. I need to catch up. The men have taken over the ship. So far, everything seems to be going so orderly. It's like the men have been planning this mutiny for quite awhile. Did Bligh not have any inkling of what was going on under his nose? How long had they been planning for this mutiny? I wonder if any of the natives were aware that Bligh was headed for danger when he boarded the ship that last time.

Is abuse the reason for the mutiny? What kind of abuse? What will the men on the ship do with all of that Breadfruit?

Nowadays a captain could communicate with officers on shore to get help. Back then, after boarding the ship, how did you communicate with officers not on your ship? I really want to know, when did the last big mutiny happen? Is this the one, the Mutiny on the Bounty?

Those words are so sad. At that moment all of your control is gone. Your future is up to other people, people not wanting to shake your hand and drink wine.

Marni, the other book you read, did it go in to further detail about the abuses suffered by the crew on board from the hands of William Bligh?

William Bligh gives reasons why he thinks the men revolted. Bligh feels they have made relationships with women among the Otaheiteans. These men are possibly feeling they could lead a better life away from England while living on these islands. That seems like such an immature reason to mutiny. What did they hate to face back in England? Debts?? What??

Then, Christian, I feel, is already feeling guilt for placing Bligh in such a predicament, for revolting against him. Christian says, "I am in hell-I am in hell." At that point, did he regret his choices?

Christian knew Bligh well. He had sailed with him three times. Bligh mentions past kindnesses done for Christian. Usually, I try to see the side of the underdog. This time I find it hard to sympathize with the mutineers. May be I am missing some information. I just feel like there is a big gap in the picture. It's like I am reading a mystery novel. When men stage a mutiny, how many are caught and punished?

"Christian, in particular, I was on the most friendly terms with: that very day he was engaged to have dined with me: and the preceding night, he excused himself from supping with me, on pretence of being unwell; for which I felt concerned, having no suspicions of his integrity and honour."

MARNI, Thank you, thank you. You found answers to three of my questions! The Avee, the Ava, and the cure of veneral diseases in the Islands.

Bligh obviously attributes a desire to remain in the Islands as the motive for the mutiny. "..for to the friendly and endearing behavior of these people, may be ascribed the motives for that event which effected the ruin of an expedition.." Bligh himself had become very fond of the Islanders, considered them dear friends, and hated to leave them.

Still, the mariners could expect to return again, in other voyages. So the attachments, for some at least, must have been much stronger. Laurence Irving wrote, "It is in the character of Fletcher Christian that the clue to the mystery of the Mutiny lies. No one can fail to have a certain sympathy for this incalculable man." ".....Christian was a gay, handsome and sensitive young man with a growing reputation for philandering, full of zest for his work, his recreation and for adventure." He also reports that when they left the Islands, Christian's native wife was soon to have a child, which he might never see again.

However, another significant (to me) piece of information is that when Fletcher Christian's wife, who had followed him to Pitcairn Island, died, he seized another of the Tahitan women. The woman's husband shot him in the back as he worked on his plantation. The picture I am seeing is of an intemperate man, unable to control his emotions or his appetites.

I'd be interested to know how some of you see it.

Babi

Hats: Thank you for all of your insights! Yes, this is the big one -THE Mutiny on the Bounty - probably the most famous mutiny in history. We're seeing it only through the captain's eyes, so it's an interesting picture how the mutiny suddenly occurred without warning - Bam! Bligh was totally unprepared, unaware.

Re: Is abuse the reason for the mutiny? What kind of abuse? Bligh indicates nothing about any abuse towards the men - in fact, just the opposite. In other readings, it came out at courtmartials that Bligh could be emotional and get angry quickly. When he got angry, he used a lot of strong language with his men (swore a lot and yelled, etc.) which got them angry. However, it was also clear that Bligh's anger was very short-lived and he got over things very quickly. He had short bursts of anger. He did not seem to have good people skills. The officers investigating the mutiny did not appear to consider Bligh's outbursts a big deal at all. Apparently, it was common for captains to use a lot of foul language and have bursts of anger.

Another thing I read was that Bligh may have been drinking more as the time went on, but I don't think there was proof of this - just conjecture. Also, apparently he could knit-pick over little things that occurred on the ship. Apparently, he got on Christian Fletcher's case about it. Apparently, the day before the mutiny there was a pile of coconuts on board that no one was supposed to touch on Bligh's orders - he was going to dole them out to the crew in a certain manner. Some of them disappeared and Bligh accused Fletcher of taking them. He got Fletcher really angry and that may have been the reason Fletcher didn't show up at dinner that night. It may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.

It sounds like Fletcher was depressed about leaving his native wife and the lifestyle of the islands, and he was totally irritated with the captain. I read that right before the mutiny, Fletcher prepared a raft and was going to leave the Bounty by himself, not mutiny but desertion; but he was talked out of it by friends. Fletcher had a lot of friends on board - he was so personable. Perhaps on shore they had spent time imagining a future of ease and happiness in the islands.

At any rate, Christian led a group of the men to take over the ship. It may have been discussed earlier, but it sounds to me like when it happened, it just suddenly happened. Fletcher Christian was the leader. He had the third watch. He had access to the weapons. They took over the ship and forced those not with them off the Bounty - except for some men they needed for their skills, like Coleman, who begged the captain to remember he had not wanted to mutiny.

Mutiny was a hanging offense.

Hats: Re: What will the men on the ship do with all of that Breadfruit? The mutineers threw it overboard! After all that work! They were sick of it, I guess. It must have represented Bligh, their chores, and everything they were rebelling against. Nothing about the mutineers and the Bounty and their aftermath is in Bligh's narrative.

I read in the Alexander book that Christian took the Bounty back to Tahiti - had to lie to the natives about what happened. They couldn't stay there because they figured if the word got out, they'd be captured and hanged. They left and sailed around trying to find a place to live. They went back to Tahiti again once and at that point 16 of Christian's crew decided to stay on Tahiti. Peter Heywood was one of these men. These were the mutineers who were captured later by the HMS Pandora crew.

Apparently, the 8 mutineers who remained with Christian on the Bounty took some native women and men with them who wanted to go, but actually kidnapped a group of women, too, so they'd have enough women with them. Eventually, Christian took the ship to Pitcairn Island, an uninhabited remote pleasant Pacific island southeast of Tahiti - it had been mis-charted on the map. Christian found it and figured no one would find them there.

At Pitcairn Island someone burned the Bounty. Then the mutineers there had no way to leave. I read there were fights, particularly over women, and they killed each other off. Many years later when the island was found, only one Brit remained, John Adams. Children had been born on the island and some of their descendents live there today.

Here again is the Pitcairn Island Study Center site. There is tons of info about the mutiny here:

http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/pitcairn/index.shtml

Here's info from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny_on_the_Bounty

Babi: Re The picture I am seeing is of an intemperate man, unable to control his emotions or his appetites. I agree. He certainly was an intriguing character. He captured the imagination of generations of people. So many leading Hollywood men have wanted to play his role in movies. He has become the hero of the story down through time.

I was not even aware of the role Captain Bligh played in the harrowing voyage in the open boat until I read his narrative and the Alexander book. I had no idea Bligh was such a brave and talented navigator. To me, now, Bligh is a hero.

Hats: Re: Back then, after boarding the ship, how did you communicate with officers not on your ship?

The only way I know they could communicate from a distance was by using flags and signalling. They'd have to be within sight. And who was there to communicate with? The crew was all on board the Bounty, far off in the middle of the Pacific.

Marni, great posts!! Thank you.

These last chapters have convinced me of Captain Bligh's courage and expertise as a navigator.

I don't think he abused the men to a degree to cause them to mutiny. When the three deserters turned themselves in, he did not punish them. But he did order a lashing for the man who struck one of the natives.

He was a wonderful leader as well as a genius of a navigator. He was able to keep discipline among the men with him in the open boat, even though they were on very short rations. I looked up quadrant and found it is a very simple instrument, calling for extensive manual calculations. Yet with only the quadrant and compass, he was able to accurately arrive at Timor.

We may never know just why the mutiny, but I don't think the fault lies with Bligh. He did deserve to rank to the rank of Admiral.

Capt Bligh writes that mutinies were common, but usually the Captains could rely on the natives to bring them back to the ship which is what happened when the three left the ship earlier.

I didn't understand why the islanders attacked Bligh and his men with stones. John Norton died from the stoning. Did the islanders stone the men just for their provisions? In my mind, I didn't think Christian had given many provisions to Bligh and his men.

Hats, I agree they didn't give many provisions to Bligh. They gave him enough to reach nearby islands. I think that by doing that, they could tell themselves that Bligh and his men had a chance to survive, so they wouldn't feel that they had the death of these men on their hands. Christian probably hoped Bligh would never get back to civilization so he couldn't send a search party after the mutineers.

Juanita: It really was amazing how Bligh was able to navigate with just the quadrant and compass through those waters with no charts or maps at all, just his memory, having been through that area once? before? Bligh had done much of the charting on his trip with Captain Cook, although Bligh wasn't given credit for it when the maps were published. He must have remembered what he had drawn.

It astounds me how Bligh was able to maintain such order and cohesion on board the small launch when everyone must have been so terrified, starving, thirsty and, eventually, sick. After Norton died, there were 19 people aboard the tiny boat. You have seen the model. There was barely room to sneeze. As Pat H mentioned, they had been allowed to bring only a few possessions. Yet they had to throw some of them overboard so there was room for the people and the food and water. No room to lie down. Imagine the fear of rocking the boat. They knew about the sharks and barracudas in the waters there. And this went on week after week after week......

kidsal: I think it was desertions that Bligh was referring to rather than mutinies. Desertions were very common, but mutinies less so.

Juanita: Bligh does not mention what happened to the deserters after they were brought back. I was very surprised. Desertion is a big offense. I wonder if something really did happen to the deserters and he just didn't mention it because of all that was going on. Or did he just forgive them? I find it hard to believe they were not punished.

Hats: Wasn't the stone attack so frightening?! Bligh said he knew what was coming when the islanders began congregating and cracking the stones together because the same thing happened in Hawaii when Captain Cook was killed. Cook was stoned and bludgeoned to death by Hawaiian natives when he held captive their chief in order to get the natives to return some things stolen. And Cook was killed for it! Bligh was right there at the time and saw the whole thing. Then Bligh did the same thing in Otaheite! I was shocked when Bligh wrote he held some chiefs on board the Bounty in order to force the natives to return stolen items.

Interesting how natives from a variety of islands had some of the same war tactics.

Pat H: I was wondering about what the mutineers thought about what would happen to Bligh and the other 19 men in the launch. I was thinking for awhile that really that must have thought they would die. Originally, they were going to force them into a smaller, less sea-worthy boat. Someone persuaded them to allow the men into the launch instead. The launch was a little bigger and in better shape.

I suppose you're right - that they thought maybe there was a chance the launch would make it to an island. Otherwise, why was Christian so intent on finding a remote place like Pitcairn Island if he didn't think there was a chance someone would come hunting for him?

They must have all realized, though, that chances were slim. The crowded boat in the huge sea....

Apparently, some men who remained on the Bounty were not really mutineers, but they were afraid to climb into the launch because there was no more room. I believe this was part of the defense Peter Heywood used later in the trial for mutiny back in England, although from what I've read, Heywood really was with the mutineers. He was so young, though, I think only 15 when the mutiny occurred. Imagine how easily a boy could be pursuaded by a charismatic man in a situation like this.

The description of the stoning was dreadful, especially before they actually attacked, and were knocking stone upon stone. But, like Hats, I really don't understand the reason for the attack. I wonder also, why the natives didn't attack immediately, why they waited until all but one unfortunate man had escaped back into the boat. Then they brought stones into their own boats and chased the sailors out to sea. Had they been harmed by other sailors at some point? Or were they normally warrior-like and unfriendly? Or were they afraid of Bligh and his starving men?

It's also amazing how the men cast adrift could survive on such tiny bits of rations, and sips of water - and how desperate they must have been to eat rotten bread and raw birds. ~JudyS

It isn't in Bligh's book, but the mutineers sailed back to Tahiti, picked up their women and some other natives, willing and unwilling, and dropped off some of the mutineers and the loyal crewmen before looking for Pitcairn Island. So they knew the story would eventually reach the British.

Kidsal: You brought up the important point about other mutinies occurring. One attempted mutiny had a great impact on the story of the HMS Bounty. It was the attempted mutiny in 1782 on board the HMS Narcissus whose captain was Edward Edwards. The mutiny was stopped. (Edwards had marines aboard.) But Edwards never forgot his experience. He was the captain of the HMS Pandora, the ship sent to capture the men who mutineed on the Bounty.

Judy: Good questions about the natives. Why didn't they attack immediately? Had they been harmed by other sailors at some point? Or were they normally warrior-like and unfriendly? Or were they afraid of Bligh and his starving men?

The only thing I can think of has to do with a comment Bligh wrote - the natives discovered the crew didn't have guns. The natives must have been quite flabbergasted to see the boat and crew land as they did. Maybe it took the natives awhile to realize that not only did the crew lose their ship, they lost the weapons that had made them more powerful than the natives.

It did seem that the people fought amongst their own tribes. They had very limited space on the islands. I would think they might have fought for food and territory, at least. I wonder if some of the tribes on different islands are less friendly towards strangers than others? Or, like Judy asked, did they have bad experiences with the white strangers?

One thing that really disturbed me was how both Cook and Bligh "detained" chiefs in order to get back stolen property. Yikes. Kidnapping a chief? That's probably about as awful a thing as could be done to a people. What did the captains think the natives were going to do about something like?! Imagine strangers coming to the US and kidnapping the president.

Pat H: That's right. The mutineers did come back to Tahiti. They lied to the natives about what happened, but word would get back whether Bligh and loyal crew were killed or not.

I read something sad about the mutiny and the fiddler, Michael Bryne. Remember he was nearly blind? Apparently, he climbed into the small boat that was going to be used to set Bligh and men adrift. Bryne wanted to go with them. But they switched from that boat to the launch. Apparently, Bryne, who couldn't see what was going on, got confused, and was just left sitting there in the wrong boat. He ended up staying on board the Bounty. He was one of the crew who was let out when Christian sailed the Bounty back to Tahiti. Eventually, Bryne was captured by the Pandora crew and taken back to England to go on trial for mutiny.

Bligh did hold the chiefs while demanding the return of the grapnel, but he did not follow through. When it began to grow dark, and the chiefs were greatly upset, he changed his mind and permitted them to leave. I think this may have been one of those instances of his flares of anger, quickly cooled.

It was evident the crew had a high opinion of Blighs abilities as a mariner. He was allowed to take only a quadrant and a compass on the boat. Even so, some among the crew felt that was too much. "I'll be damned if he does not find his way home, if he gets anything with him., was the comment of one. And when the carpenters chest was also allowed, another said: "Damn my eyes, he will have a vessel built in a month!" High praise, indeed.

Christian's parting words were emotional and revealing, don't you think? Bligh reproached him, asking him if 'this treatment was a proper return for the many instances he had received of my friendship'. He records Christian's reply as: "That,--Captain Bligh,---that is the thing;--I am in hell--I am in hell." This sounds to me like a man who has rashly acted, and now must follow through.

Babi

As you pointed out, Marni, It does seem quite bold and presumptuous that Bligh would feel free to kidnap the chiefs until he got what he wanted. You know what, Marni Ð he felt kind of free to boss everybody around. It seems to me that he looked upon the Tahiti people as if they were children, and that somehow he was their powerful Dad. When I read Fletcher Christian's final words to Bligh, I felt sorry for him, as well as for the captain. ~JudyS

Babi: That was pretty cool when the crew said those words about Bligh! He certainly must have had a great reputation as a seaman!

Oh, Judy, I felt sorry for Fletcher Christian, too, when he said those words Babi pointed out. What a big mistake! He ruined his life and lives of others. Those words, "I am in hell - I am in hell," have been made famous in movies of Mutiny on the Bounty. I remember Mel Gibson saying those exact words. I wonder if Clark Gable said them?

I'm thinking back to seeing those movies. I remember they made Captain Bligh such a villain when Charles Laughton played him. But, in the Mel Gibson version when Anthony Hopkins played Bligh, I thought he was much more human and less of a villain. It's been awhile.....

Judy: Re Bligh being bold and presumptious and looking on the Tahitians as children - doesn't this seem like something that white explorers have done throughout history? Maybe I'm really over-generalizing.

What did you think of the way Bligh carefully doles out the food, even making a little scale to measure so everyone got as equal a share as possible?

And what about how Bligh was determined not to touch some of the boat provisions for as long as possible during the period when he thought they could get food/water on shore? And then how he reduced the men's share, thinking they might get to Timor in so many weeks, but making the food last for 2 weeks longer than that in case it took them longer to get there?

What do you think you would have done?

Something that impressed me almost as much as Bligh's abilities as a mariner, was the way he handled the short rations. They realized that, without weapons, it would be unsafe to land on islands without a European population, which meant going all the way to Timor. The crew was eager to get home. Bligh did some calculations of supplies and distances, and made the men pledge to live on a slice of bread and a cup of water a day (for 8 weeks!).

The impressive thing is, he managed to make them stick to it. People under these conditions eventually start squabbling over food, fighting over it, sneaking it and hiding it, etc. Bligh seems to have remained in control at all times, his authority not questioned.

He was totally vulnerable to revolt against his authority--one man, with no force behind him. Anyone could have tipped him over the side of the boat. Of course he was their best chance to get to Timor, but some of the others would have been reasonable navigators, and might flatter themselves that they could do the job.

I'm still trying to figure out what he was like, but for starters, I think he was at his best under desperate situations, where your life depended on your actions and there was no chance to be petty.

So far as the enlisted men were concern, I think the several months spent in the seemed paradise of Tahiti and the bleak prospects of returning to the rigorous work of sea duty triggered the mutiny. Also the men had no prospects comparable to their experience at Tahiti awaiting them on their final return to England. To them their spur of the moment decision to join the mutiny must have been easy.

I think ChristianÕs decision to lead the mutiny was also resulted from his Tahitians experience but he had much brighter prospects awaiting him on his return to England. For him there must have been more complex reasons involved. We have not had much comment here on ChristianÕs character and his basic emotional and mental state. Bligh as an 18th century actor failed to recognize ChristianÕs psychological state as a cause, but recent authorities such as Gavin Kennedy, in his biography of Bligh, cites ChristianÕs weak character and metal conditions as a cause leading to his sudden decision to mutiny. .

What are your thoughts concerning ChristianÕs character and mental state? Did Bligh describe a confrontation just before the mutiny broke out between Bligh and some of the crew over their private stash of coconuts brought from Tahiti and Christians reaction to it? Tomorrow I will see if I can post more information from the Kennedy on ChristianÕs mental state as a cause

Pat H: I think you've brought up something really important: I think he was at his best under desperate situations, where your life depended on your actions and there was no chance to be petty.

Sometimes a crisis can bring out the best in a person. Doesn't it seem that happened here?

Maybe you've discovered a key to the mutiny. Maybe life was too easy on Otaheite compared to what they had gone through on the sea - for the men and for Bligh, too. Yes, there were moments of crises. But maybe the good life brought out the worst in some? We do see a new Bligh in the open boat, Bligh the hero.

Hi, Harold! We just posted together. I have to go back and read your post.

I agree that the reason for the stoning attack was that the native folk saw Bligh as being powerless without the Bounty and without its guns - and they saw the opportunity to acquire the launch which was no doubt superior to their canoes.

Bligh certainly seems to be a man who was able to rise to the occasion during this long voyage to Timor. His strength of mind in rationing the victuals, using the worst first and never deviating from his plan is staggering.

I think that despite there being others on board who were skilled navigators and seamen (Fryer for example) they all knew that Bligh was their best chance of survival

My library obtained for me a copy of 'The Blight NOTEBOOK' which from the transcription is

"this account was kept in my bosom as a common memorandum of our time and transposed into my fair Journal every day when the Weather would admit with every material circumstance which passed - Wm Bligh.

It happened that a Mr. Hayward had this Book with some Signals set down in it which appear is two Pages and I appropriated the blank leaves for this use"

The reference to the Journal is explained in the annotation which says 'A reference to the official log of the Bounty which he had managed to rescue. It (the Journal) is the original from which the official Admiralty version was probably copied.

I must say I get confused between 'logbook/ notebook/ journal / fair copy / exact copy' etc. but you might like to look at these links

Bligh Notebook

Click on Rebinding of the Bligh Notebook and then scroll down for an account of the conservation process.

Bligh Logbook

Click on corner to turn page - obviously this is a work in progress.

Gumtree, thank you for the Bligh sites. I remember years ago all the talk about the movie "Mutiny on the Bounty." I have not seen the movie. When we finish the book, I am definitely going to look at the movie.

Hi Everyone

Not sure if you remember me!

I joined the site prior to the discussion starting on November 1st. Really was looking forward to the discussion starting.

Unfortunately, due to a fall at home and a resultant knee injury that required surgery; I have been unable to take part.

Expect to be able to post regularly in a day or so, as I rely on Voice recognition for my computer which needs to be loaded on to the new tower.

A must for me as I have a dual hand disability.

Thanks to my friend for typing this for me.

Bodie

Of course we remember you, Bodie. I just wish we had know about your injury. I'm glad you are back, and I'll add my thanks to your friend for helping you rejoin us.

The thing about being dependent on the wind to get across the sea, is that you can never predict with any certainty how long it's going to take you to get there. I assume that is why Bligh was so strict with the rations. They might make it to Timor without the necessity of rationing, but it's not something you would want to bet your life on.

I was impressed with the efforts Bligh continued to do all he could for his men. Just so simple a thing as arranging watches so half the men at a time could have more room to lie down and rest. When the wet and cold were at their worst, that was when he would serve out the tots of rum. Eating damp, moldy bread sounds terrible, but many ship's crews ate worse routinely.

Babi

In the early morning of April 27th Bligh made his morning inspection of the decks and noted that a pile of shipÕs coconuts had to his view diminished during the night. He was furious and verbally lashed the assembled shipÕs company. There are four preserved accounts of the incident, by Freyer, MorrisonÕs, Edward Christian, and Bligh. Freyers account written in 1791, just 2-years after the incident does not mention Christian as being singled out for BlighÕs censure.. In fact he only mentions Edward Young. Freyer suggests that the pile of coconuts was not actually diminished; only its height was trod down by crewmembers at work during the night watch. Apparently he considered ChristianÕs involvement, if at all, insignificant.

MorrisonÕs account written in late 1792, on the other hand, has Bligh singling out Christian for his particular acid tongue verbal abuse. Christian is directly accused of the theft of the coconuts. Interestingly another memorandum written by Morrison just a few months earlier does not mention ChristianÕs involvement in the incident.

Edward Christian, Fletcher ChristianÕs brother was a law professor at Cambridge who defended Fletcher Christian in a 1792 pamphlet based on interviews with survivors. His account has Christian when confronted by Bligh as a thief, as considering the incident as being without consequence. This account has Christian saying he was dry and refreshed himself with one of the nuts, an admission that he had taken one, but considered it a matter of no importance.

Regarding BlighÕs version he apparently made no mention of the alleged theft of the Coconuts in the log or in his published accounts. (Was the incident mentioned in your book?) Apparently Bilgh did make reference to it in a 1793 written note to Sir Joseph Banks, in which he declares that the crime of theft occurred in the night. Though Christian is not mentioned by name Bligh declares it was the responsibility of the watch officer to prevent the theft.

Kennedy in his book sees Christian as greatly affected by BlighÕs acquisition creating a mental state of suicidal depression. From several primary accounts, Kennedy describes a wild and crazy night (April 27th Ð28th) during which Christian was behaving irrationally and suicidal. According to this view supported by the testimony of several contemporary principals, he decided to quit the ship in a makeshift raft intending to try to escape to a nearby island. To make the raft he obtained planks and nails from Purcell, the ships carpenter. Christian also stowed away beads for native barter and some food items. During the course of the night of April 27th Ð28th Christian involved at least 4 of the bounty crew to put together his confused plan and did not get to sleep until 3:30 only to be awakened and 4:00 for his watch after which he abandoned his escape plan to plan and stage the mutiny. At the early stage as Christian was recruiting support for the mutiny among the crew, Kennedy states that Christian had tied a heavy weight concealed under his shirt by a rope around his neck intending to jump overboard and drown if the mutiny failed.

Though Captain Bligh failed to recognize the significance of ChristianÕs final words spoken to him, ÒIÕm in Hell, IÕm in Hell,Ó the fact is these words are further evidence that Fletcher Christian was a deeply disturbed man as he uttered them and BlighÕs public accusation that this key officer was a thief had triggered the occurrence of a mental state of depression that brought Fletcher Christian to mutiny. .

In the Appendix of my Penquin copy of the Bounty Mutiny I found the following letter which was placed in evidence at the trial:

Deserter's Letter, dated on Board the Bounty, at Otaheite, Jan 26, 1789. Sir, We should think ourselves wholly inexcusable, if we omitted taking this earliest opportunity of returning our thanks for your goodness in delivering us from a trail by Court-Martial, the fatal consequences of which are obvious; and although we cannot possibly lay any claim to so great a favour, yet we hunmbly beg you will be pleased to remit any farther punishment; and we trust our future conduct will fully demonstrate our deep sense of your clemence, and one stedfast resolution to behave better hereafter. We are Sir, Your most obedient, most humble servants C CHURCHILL, WM. MUSPRAT, JOHN MILLWARD

Captain Bligh let these three off and they rewarded him by being among those involved in the mutiny.

Thanks for quoting the letter, KIDSAL. My book doesn't have this appendix. I found the language of the letter surprisingly courteous and literate. Two of the men were simply able seamen, tho' Churchill was a Master at Arms. I wonder if they composed the letter themselves, or had assistance. In any case, their composition was superior to their characters.

HAL, I wonder if Kennedy had any firm evidence of Christian's mental state, or was deriving it his impression of events. I noticed an iteresting comment on his physical condition in Irving's Preface. It seems Christian suffered from excessive sweating, the kind that requires frequent changes of clothing, and leaves wet blotches on everything one touches. This is a problem awkward and embarassing in most circumstances, but would be much less so at sea, I would think. Not to mention Island living, where clothing is kept at a minimum in any case.

Back to Bligh, I continue to be impressed with his foresight and sense of responsibility towards his 'people'. He instructed them, as best he was able, on how to find New Guinea and New Holland, and any other information that might help them to survive should anything happen to him.

The idea of dragging their wet, cold clothes through sea water to make them warmer was an eye-opener! I would never have thought of such a thing, yet the sea water was much warmer than the wind-chilled rain water. And just when I was thinking how unfortunate it was that they had to make this trip in such stormy, wet weather, I read Bligh's observation that it was a blessing of Providence. In hot weather they would have died of thirst.

The "Barringtonia of Forster", I find, is an evergreen tree or shrub, whose fruit is "an indehiscent berry or operculate capsule", if anyone has any idea what that means. I gather it is not an edible fruit, as the men on the boat made no effort to fish any of it out of the water.

Babi

Sorry I have not been a regular after starting - just a couple of comments if I can inject - years ago when I read this in some class that for the life of me I cannot remember what the class - a couple of things were decided since we read this with the Mutiny and another journal - there were 3 books we were reading - the conclusions were that Bligh had a different notion of ownership and the journal that was written by a women archiologist explained the natives of most of the South Pacific did not understand personal ownership and therefore, the taking of their leaders to them was an act of war.

Since this was an act of war there is much ritual that the natives carry out before they attack an enemy - again the journal went into some of that ritual - there was observed in some locations in the South Pacific something that involved a man hanging upside down by a rope from a high tree limb and then let go so that most often he hit the ground on his head but the swift were able alter their fall. I think that practice may have been in Borneo rather than on the Solomans.

Also, Christian was supposed to be beaten for taking something - I do not remember what - I thought I remembered it was the fresh water for the plants - it was not so much the beating as the humiliation of an officer being beaten in front of the crew and then never being able to give the crew orders that he could expect would be followed. Ships were not democratic - they were very autocratic. I remember at the time being shocked that the beatings were not given out immediately but rather there was an appointment so to speak for a certain time on a certain day.

Reading this again after so many years there are many things I forgot but most of all I realize this is one man's view and like any happening there are as many views as there are people present - that is why in a court room both views along with witnesses are part of the proceedings to get closer to a truth.

Babi I know what an indehiscent berry is - it is a plant or fruit that does not naturally release its seed.

here is a link that talks about dry Indehiscent fruit

In Message #453 BaBi asked:

HAL, I wonder if Kennedy had any firm evidence of Christian's mental state, or was deriving it his impression of events.

I think the evidence of Christians irrational behavior on the night of April 27th Ð 28th 1789 that I summarized in my message #452 is well documented from contemporary sources including the sworn testimony at the several Court Martial trials. Also many modern researchers other than Kennedy have discussed this factor in their published books and articles.

I would not expect Bligh or other pre- Freud 18th century principals to recognize the subtle signs of a bi-polar mental disorder. Yet several of the contemporary principals noted Christians disordered behavior, and as I noted previously Christians final words to Bligh as the launch cast away from the Bounty, ÒIÕm in Hell, IÕm in Hell,Ó tell us best of all his irrational state of mind as he led the mutiny.

While BlighÕs book gives us a wonderful view of the Bounty and is ill-fated mission we must remember that Bligh wrote it to support his position on the question, Did his command decisions contribute to the mutiny? His future navy career depended on the way this question would be answered by his own mandatory Court Martial. We cannot expect him to include material (such as the Coconut theft incident on April 27th) that might question his command decisions. For that we must look to other information from either primary (contemporary) or secondary sources (Modern research and published books there from).

I have said before I tend to be Bligh partisans based on the fact that I consider him among the greatest navigators. Also his ability and courage as a naval commander was later proven by his command of Ships of the Line in battle that brought the praise of Nelson and BlighÕs promotion to flag rank. I think his problems stemmed from the 18th century concept of leadership that required the leader to lead through the use of actual or implied physical force. Accordingly Bligh led by the threats of physical force either from the Royal Marines (The Master at arms on the Bounty) and the frequent reading of the Articles of War governing the Navy. Also he had a violent temper that figured prominently in the Coconut theft confrontation the day before the mutiny. He was my no means a modal commander particularly in the modern sense.

Hi, everyone! Hope you all have had a pleasant weekend.

Bodie: Nice to hear from you! I'm so sorry about your fall and surgery and hope you are feeling better. We look forward to hearing more from you.

Harold: Thank you for the information about Fletcher Christian and his state of mind and the info about the coconuts and its impact on Christian. Bligh did not discuss this in his narrative. And thanks for telling us how Edward Christian was an attorney who later defended his brother. Edward and others in Fletcher Christian's family played a large role in besmirching Bligh's name, even possibly bribing some of the mutineers at courtmartial to lie, from what I have read.

I still ask myself why did the other men so readily join in, knowing that mutiny was forever to ruin their lives, no turning back. Might it be so easy for some to say farewell to their homeland forever or to feel they might always be hunted by the law? Perhaps in the heat of the moment and the excitement and titillation, they were simply caught up in the mutiny. Fletcher Christian has been described as charismatic. Perhaps the force of his personality had strong sway with they men that terrible night. Perhaps ill will had built over some time to such an extent that a small thing could push them over the limit of endurance. Whatever it was that really happened, the life of every single man aboard the Bounty was changed forever that night, and many lives were ruined.

Gumtree: Thank you for the great links to the interesting info about Bligh's notebook and logbook. It seems Bligh documented a new log aboard the launch using materials he could find, such as Midshipman Heywood's notebook. Our narrative certainly sounds much like his log. He also made illustrations and observations. Fun to be able to read the log!

Babi: Good point about how the unpredictable weather/winds would have made the length of the voyage unknown. Once again we see Bligh thinking ahead to what might happen and planning the meager food allowance acordingly.

Kidsal: Thanks for the deserters' letter from your Appendix. I do not have this in my book, either. My book is bare bones!

Babi: Yay! You clarified for me what Bligh was describing regarding wringing out clothes in the salt water. I had no idea what Bligh was talking about. How the clothes wrung in salt water would make them fell warmer! I thought it had something to do with the salt. OK, now I get it - sea water was warmer! Never occurred to me.

And what an important point you mentioned - how it was a good thing they had such terrible weather. I couldn't get over what awful weather they had nearly constantly on their Pacific voyage - always rain, lightning, cold, dark, huge waves sweeping over the sides of the small boat. They were so cold! On and on like that! But if it had been beautiful and sunny, they would have been hot and more thirsty and sunburned.

Barbara: I think you're right - about Bligh saying Christian should be beaten or something to that effect in front of the men regarding the theft of coconuts. I read about that in the Alexander book. I don't think it was carried out - just Bligh threatening in a fit of anger. But, yes, how humiliating for Christian to be yelled at and threatened with punishment in front of the men since he was now acting Lieutenant.

I remember it being in the news (60s or 70s) about a flogging of two sailors in the Canadian Navy. The last flogging apparently. The two young sailors had stolen a part from the engine which prevented the ship from sailing because they had dates for the next night. Probably wasn't the type of flogging given in the 1700s.

BARBARA, thanks for the explanation of 'dehiscent'. See, I learn something new every day! On the topic of flogging, I don't believe that punishment was ever used on officers, probably because of the necessity for them to be seen as figures of authority.

HAROLD, thank you for the fuller info. on Christian's mental state. That does fit what took place, doesn't it?

We now have learned a new 18th century game! "Who Gets This?" I may pass this on to parents whose kids are arguing over the distribution of the goodies.

More and more I see the importance of those well-kept logs, giving latitude, longitude, and major landmarks. Captains sailing to a particular area for the first time would certainly give them diligent study. Sailing along a strange coast, they could know that at a given lat/long., with one landmark to their NW and another landmark to the NE, they would find a channel and a safe harbor. And weren't you all impressed when Bligh arrived at his destination, and found he had been off his reckoning by no more than 1 o,9' WOW!

Babi

Babi: Not only was William Bligh a brilliant navigator, but he was brilliant at cartography. I simply can't imagine being able to look at a coastline and drawing a map from it. It must take training, experience, and special skill, all of which Bligh had. Starvation, thirst, cold, and suffering did not keep the captain from his task of charting the Pacific islands and waterways the launch passed through. He always kept it in mind of bringing back this information to pass on to others.

Perhaps the jobs of charting and maintaining the journal were things that kept Bligh going on the terrible trip. It amazed me at how long he and his men kept their spirits up despite such adversity. Their will to survive was so strong. Maybe their belief in the captain's skill kept them going. They were so very weak and sick as they neared their goal, but they kept rowing and bailing, rowing and bailing. Not one of the men died on their boat journey to Indonesia (Dutch East Indies).

During the mutiny, I am glad Bligh's journal was not destroyed. His writing style is very readable.

Babi: I had never heard of "Who Gets This" before in any books of the sea I had read. All of the men with Bligh seemed familiar with it. It worked! It didn't seem like there were complaints of who got what part. Maybe they were all just so glad to get something, anything. They ate every single scrap of those birds they caught.

Wasn't that an amazing scene to visualize? The men grabbing for birds that flew near or landed on the boat? And they actually caught some finally. The meat/moisture must have saved them.

I see Bligh following the rules of the game, cutting apart the birds, carefully weighing sections on his scales, doling out portions, giving more moisture to the sickest of the men. I think Bligh's care with doling out food on the Bounty was very irritating to the men there. Maybe that part of Bligh's nature contributed to the men hating him. But that strict attention and adherence to detail and fairness, as well as preparing for the unknown future, probably saved the men's lives on the launch.

Hats: I have to admit I was really glad when we got to the part in our book where the Bounty reached Tasmania and Tahiti. I was getting irritated with Bligh's explanations of the ship's position. Then the book really picked up for me. This part of the story about the open boat I found totally fascinating!

Re Questions - #1. Besides the breadfruit plants, what gift did Tinah intend for BritainÕs King George? Remember Tinah had the mourning clothes made for King George? He said that the king, by wearing the clothing when he died, would always remember his friends from Otaheite. I thought that was very meaningful, very sweet.

Are we still following the schedule? I have not read pass chapter sixteen.

Yes, we're staying on schedule. We'll begin discussion of chpt. 16-20 + Wrapup on Wednesday. Right now, with our reading, the men are still in the launch on their way to Timor, getting weaker and weaker, but beginning to catch birds to eat. Bligh seems to know where they are.

Hi Everyone

Thank you for the kind welcome back.

Question Five

Having read about the mutiny itself a couple of times, I can not understand why Captain Bligh had no idea why the mutiny took place. It would be understandable if the Chapters leading up to Chapter 13 contained stories of rough or inhumane treatment towards the crew of the Bounty, but this does not seem to be the case

This begs the question, was there a breakdown of relations with the majority of the crew in the days leading up to the mutiny? If so, had Captain Bligh omitted this in his report or ships log for a reason? Was it perhaps that he thought the Admiralty would take a dim view of his leadership qualities if actions on his part had been the main cause of the Mutiny aboard the Bounty?

There have been different accounts of the disappearance of a number of coconuts from the Bounty and the CaptainÕs accusations against several crew members and Fletcher Christian. Furthermore, there have been different theories regarding Fletcher Christian taking water, though not we are led to believe for his own consumption.

He was supposed have opened the water casket to give water to an able seaman who was in poor health through drinking sea water. The seaman had taken this course of action in drinking sea water, because it is thought Captain Bligh had rationed the water to ensure the bread fruit plants had enough water so they remained in a healthy condition on the passage home.

However, we are asked to make a judgement about the mutiny from Captains BlighÕs own account, therefore the above questions have to be asked. I find it hard to believe the Captain of a ship whose crew mutiny against him would not have inkling anything was wrong!!

Looking at the list of those who sailed in the open boat with Captain Bligh, it seems the list is mainly made up of officers, tradesmen and professional people like the botanist and cooks. Also some men still loyal to Captain Bligh had to remain on the Bounty because of a lack of space in the open boat. This left in the main the able seaman from the Bounty.

A seamanÕs point of view on harsh treatment of course would differ from the CaptainÕs. At this time the Navy could never fully man their ships, this meant able seaman were Ôpress gangedÕ in to service aboard ship. Therefore, if they were taken on board against their will in the first place then it is probable they might not have a great deal of allegiance towards their Captain if victuals or water had been rationed. The two lists detailed in chapter 13 intrigues me, as nearly every able seaman mutinied against their Captain.

With that in mind, officers and sailorÕs life on board ship depends on every one working together; whether when at war to stop the ship being seized by the enemy or peace time to stop it foundering in rough weather. Now as we know on the Ôpassage outÕ, Captain Bligh decided to take the more hazardous route, being around Cape Horn instead of around the Cape of Good Hope. In the end he was forced to abandon Cape Horn because of severe weather and return to the route around the Cape of Good Hope.

During this attempted passage around Cape Horn, the ship would have had to function as a team to survive the awful conditions they faced. Any dissension could have proved costly to any man on board and the Captain Bligh would have been aware of any such discord or dissent.

Therefore, was there disharmony in the days before the mutiny that Captain Bligh failed to mention that caused this team spirit to ebb away to the point the men mutinied against him?

Bodie

Hi, Bodie! Glad you're back with us! You raise some interesting questions. Good point about how the crew would have had to work as a team to survive, particularly going around the Horn. Did Bligh just not mention the disharmony which may have begun later or did he not notice it? You pointed out something that I had not noticed before - the men listed as Able Seaman all remained on the Bounty. I hadn't really examined the lists carefully. I think what I noticed the most was that several of the midshipmen mutineed.

Bodie: You probably know more about Midshipman Peter Heywood and Christian Fletcher than any of us because they were from the Isle of Man. They are two of the most interesting of the crew to me, although Bligh does not say much about them in his narrative. Can you tell us what you know about Heywood and Fletcher and families?

Marni

Be pleased to let you know about Captain Bligh, Fletcher Christian and Peter Heywood. May be it is known already.

I live about a mile away from the village of Onchan, where on the 4th February 1781 William Bligh married as we know Elizabeth Bentham at the local parish church. ElizabethÕs family lived at Bemahague Onchan about half a mile from me. . William Bligh had been a frequent visitor to Douglas, as he served on HMS Ranger as a midshipman which made many trips to the Island. Douglas by the way is where I live and is the capital of the Isle of Man, hence why HMS Ranger would dock in Douglas port.

I am not sure if it was a family friendship that saw William Bligh being introduced to Elizabeth, but both her father and WilliamÕs father were Customs officers. After their marriage William and Elizabeth lived in Douglas, for how long I am not certain.

However, their daughter Mary was christened on July 7th 1784 at St MatthewÕs Church Douglas. Probably within a few years they moved off the Island to Lambeth in London, perhaps because of WilliamsÕs naval career.

It was thought through ElizabethÕs family connections, that she was a tremendous help to William during his career. We know William Bligh served in merchant ships, where he had been employed by ElizabethÕs uncle Duncan Campbell.

In relation to the breadfruit plants, we know it was Sir John Banks who helped arrange the Bounty expedition. An associate whether business or socially of Sir John Banks, was Duncan Fletcher. It is probable that the uncle recommended or put WilliamÕs name forward for the Captaincy of the breadfruit expedition.

Back later about Fletcher Christian and Peter Heywood. Physiotherapy first!!

Bodie

Bodie, I'm so glad you joined this discussion! Looks like there's a lot more to the story of the mutiny than meets the eye; especially the eye of Captain Bligh. ~JudyS

judywolfs

Thanks for the kind words. Now some informaton about Peter Heywood.

Peter Heywood came from a very well-known family living at the Nunnery on the Isle of Man. He was the son of a Deemster which is Manx for a Judge. His father being a Steward to the Duke of Atholl.

For a considerable time the Atholl family owned the Island, until in 1806 when the sovereignty of the Island was sold by the fourth Duke of Athol to the British Government. But it was not until 1826, when a further payment from the Crown saw the Duke surrender privileges of which he had possession.

Peter was heavily tattooed, having the Three Legs of Mann tattooed on his right leg. The Three Leg of Mann is the National symbol of the Island and is on our coinage.

A frequent visitor to the Nunnery was William Bligh. Both the HeywoodÕs and Mrs BlighÕs family the BenthamÕs were very good friends. It was said that a letter from William BlighÕs father in law urged him to take Peter as a member of the Bounty crew. Peter joined the Navy in 1787 when he was 15, being appointed as a junior midshipman.

After the Mutiny trial he returned to the Nunnery and his family where they nursed him back to health. He returned to the Navy in 1793 aboard his UncleÕs flagship the ÔBellerphonÕ, but only for a short time before he joined the ÔNigerÕ as MasterÕs mate.

For the next few years he served on several ships, one being the ÔGlorious FirstÕ where he served under three Captains, who had been members of his court martial.

He did command his own vessel, in 1803 the ÔLeopard 50Õ and the ÔCirencesterÕ in 1805, with many more vessels under his command until he was put out of commission in 1816.

A couple of months later Peter married Francis Simpson from Stirlingshire, he was forty three. They did not have any children of their own. His step daughter married towards the end of 1830, by now he was not a well man. He died in February the following year and was buried in St MichaelÕs Church, Highgate in London.

Bodie

Bodie: Thank you so much for the info about William Bligh and Peter Heywood. I hope your physiotherapy is helping you to feel better. I'm looking forward to your info about Fletcher Christian. You certainly are right in the middle of Bounty country! You have added much to our discussion by providing info about Bligh's personal life. He shares almost none of it in his narrative. It's hard to tell from what we are reading that Bligh was a loving family man and kind husband who dearly loved his wife and wrote her many loving letters while on his voyages.

It was fascinating to read what you said about the relationships between Blighs and Heywoods. No wonder Bligh was so shocked when young Peter Heywood mutineed. Thank you for providing insight into his life after he returned home. I have more info about Heywood that I'll post later in the week. His was quite a story.

I was interested in Peter Heywood's Isle of Man tattoo and curious as to what it looked liked. Here's a picture of the 'Three Legs of Mann' in a distinctive sculptural panel on the Manx Museum: http://www.gov.im/mnh/heritage/about/Image.gov?id=3780

Here is the national flag of Man with the "trinacria" emblem in the centre. The article here says, "The triskell is also often said to represent the three dynamics elements: water, air, and fire, or the wave of sea, the breath of wind, and the flame of fire." http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/flags/im.html

"The Latin motto, "Quocunque Jeceris Stabit", meaning "Whichever way you throw, it will stand", is a later addition to the Manx Three Legs and the earliest use of the motto appears to be on Manx coinage of 1668."

http://www.e-celtic.com/isleofman.html

Tomorrow we begin the last week of our discussion, right on schedule. PatW will be putting up a new set of questions for you to peruse along with a new map.

This is a busy week with the Thanksgiving holiday for us in America. I know I'll be baking pecan pies and cooking the mashed potatoes for our family gathering at my sister's - luckily not far. (Can't wait!) But it's not going to stop me from participating in our discussion. I'll be dashing to the computer every now and then during the next couple of days. I have some fabulous pictures, letters, and info related to the Bounty story that I want to show you.

I'd like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

Marni

Marni

Another web site with some more Manx 'flags'in relation to the Isle of Man.

The second flag listed as you will read is the Parliament day. Flown our National Day July 5th.

The third one listed is the Isle of Man Ship flag. For ships registered on the Island whose residents are Manx residents.

Fifth one listed is the one the Lieutenant Governor's Flag, he is the Queen's representative on the Island. The Queen is also Lord of Mann and chooses the Lieutenant Governor.

http://www.iomguide.com/manxflags.php

Bodie

Marni

Fletcher Christian was born in 1764 at a farmstead in Moorland Close which is near to Cockermouth in Cumbria United Kingdom. Some think he was very distantly related to William Wordsworth.

Besides their property at Moorland Close, the family owned other properties. It was in Douglas on the Island that they owned land. The Christian family had lived on the Island from about 1380. The ancestral home is being located at Milntown near to Ramsey which is in the north of the Island.

Fletcher Christian went to sea it is thought when he was either 17 or 18. He signed up as the Ôships boyÕ on the ÔCambridgeÕ where William Bligh was the sixth Lieutenant. Later he was to take two trips aboard the ÔBritanniaÕ again with William Bligh in the ships company.

The name Christian is of Scandinavian origin, originally thought to be MacCristens or Christins. Perhaps it would be better to view the web page link below to read about Fletcher Christians ancestors. Click on the ninth link in contents titled 'ChristianÕs of Milntown, Isle of Man and Ewanrigg Hall'.



http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/families/awm1889/

Bodie

I forgot to post earlier that Captain Bligh's remarkable journey to Timor in Bounty's launch, was such a brilliant act of seamanship. Truly it was remarkable.

Bodie

Thank you for your detailed account of the Peter Heywood, Fletcher Christian, and William Bligh connections to the Isle of Mann. It is great to have your participation and your local knowledge of the roots of these Bounty principles in the Isle of Mann

Seniorsnet Books needs greater UK and other international participation. Thanks again for joining here.

Harold

Thank you.

Only pleased I can contribute to the William Bligh discussion. Look forward to participating more in future.

Bodie

Bodie: Thank you for the information about Fletcher Christian and the family. They were well-connected. I saw in your post with flags of Man that your national holiday is July 5th. What occurred on that day that was so important?

PatW: Thanks so much for putting up our final set of questions and the map, making it so we can enlarge it!

I noticed on the map above that we can't see "Coupang" on it. It is "Kupang" today. Here's a map showing where it is on the island of Timor, in West Timor:



Per Wikipedia, Kupang is the main port city of West Timor, which is the Indonesian part of the island of Timor. "European colonization of Timor started in the 16th century. Although the Portuguese claimed the island of Timor in 1520, the Dutch (in the form of the Dutch East India Company) settled West Timor in 1640, forcing the Portuguese out to East Timor. The subsequent collapse of the company meant that in 1799 the area returned to official Dutch rule. Finally, in 1914 the border between East and West Timor was finalized by a treaty between Holland and Portugal that was originally signed in 1859 and modified in 1893.

Japan conquered the island as part of World War II in early 1942. August 17, 1945 saw Indonesian Independence declared, just three days after the Japanese surrender. The Dutch returned but faced a war with republican guerrillas, the eventual outcome of which was the proclamation of Republic of Indonesia in 1950, which made West Timor a part of Nusa Tenggarra Timur province."

View looking up Coupang River, Timor: http://www.brunias.com/images/a153.jpg

Coupang: http://www.antiqueprintroom.com/image?a5244d658ff034686933abab5daf2745

Young Malay Girl at Timor, carrying water bags from stick on shoulder: http://www.brunias.com/images/a154.jpg

Half portrait of King Solor at Timor, head-dress and cloak 1807: http://www.brunias.com/images/a155.jpg

Young Slave Girl carrying Tea on tray, island of Rotti, Timor: http://www.brunias.com/images/a156.jpg

Timor native in full dress: http://www.brunias.com/images/a165.jpg

Another Timor native in full dress: http://www.brunias.com/images/a166.jpg

Engraving of various trades, blacksmith, forge etc in Coupang 1807: http://www.brunias.com/images/a157.jpg

Implements, for use with Betel Nut: http://www.brunias.com/images/a158.jpg

Various Timor musical instruments and weapons: http://www.brunias.com/images/a159.jpg

Various Timor cooking utensils: http://www.brunias.com/images/a160.jpg

Bligh and his Crew of Ship Bounty received by Governor of Timor. Copper engraving: http://www.brunias.com/images/a152.jpg

Here is something I was excited to find and read, a letter from Bligh to his wife written while he was staying in Coupang:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Bounty/blighletters.html

Does it add to your picture of Captain Bligh? of the mutiny?

Important letters to others are included, as well.

MARNI & BODIE, thanks for answering all my question about the three legs of Manx before I asked. The letter from Bligh to his wife I found especially moving.

One statement in the letter I though esp. pertinent:

The Secrisy of this Mutiny is beyond all conception so that I cannot discover that any who are with me had the least knowledge of it. We have wondered how Bligh could have had no suspicion of the plot. Apparently, he was not alone in this.

There were many instances during this voyage when they were saved by circumstances which Bligh considered no less than Providential. I had to agree with him. It is incredible that these men survived all they did, with only one man lost to attacking natives.

Alas, no matter how stalwart the men were in their support of, and obedience to, the Captain while there lives were at risk, they were noticeably less so as soon as they had dry land under their feet. The seaman who belligerantly informed Bligh that he was 'as good a man' as Bligh, really aroused my ire and scorn. Bligh had saved his life, and this was his thanks!

I cannot blame Bligh for his action to preserve his authority, which was still so necessary to them all. Pulling his cutlass and challenging the man to fight put an end to that churlish rebellion. Bligh then says the "did not allow this to interfere further with the harmony of the boat's crew, and everything became quiet." The decision to let the matter end there was a wise one, IMO.

Babi

I have an interesting facsimile copy of BlighÕs log kept after the mutiny. In a Title page it is described as follows:

The following pages here reproduced in facsimile form a portion of the Admiralty copy of BlighÕs Log, reference ADM 55/151. The original is housed at the Public Records Office, Kew.

I take this to mean it is a hand written copy of the Bligh original made by an 18th century Admiralty clerk. It is on a two-column ledger paper in an extremely neat easily readable handwriting. My first suspicion was that it was the result of setting the type with a computer using a script font. However, this suspicion appears disproved by obvious subtle differences in particular letters as they appear on different pages.

There are some 190, 8 _ X 12 _ inch pages. The first entry dated April 29, 1789 gives a detailed account of the mutiny and a list of names of both the mutineers and loyalist. After that it is a typical ships log of day-to-day events ending August 20th at the Dutch Settlements.

This book was published in 1981 by the Pageminster Press,, Guilford, Surry, England in association with Argot Press, Melbourne, Australia. Its new price was marked at 13.95 English Pounds, I purchased my copy in new condition in the late 1980Õs at our Texas Half Priced Books chain for $9,98

Babi: I found Bligh's letter to his wife moving, too. I've read other letters that he wrote to her. It sounds as though they were really in love and very close. I read somewhere that Betsy was supposed to have been very intelligent and very well educated.

I thought one thing particularly interesting about the letters was this line Bligh wrote: "Besides this Villain [Fletcher Christian] see young Heywood one of the ringleaders, & besides him see Stewart joined with him." Bligh specifically points Heywood out as a leader of the mutiny.

Also, this line was important: "Should it please God not to give me' life to return let it be remembered there is no one here that is deserving of any attention from their country but my Clerk [Mr. Samuels] who has shewn much resolution & behaved well-also a Young Man a Mr. Hayward, but let this remain among ourselves until I return or not." Hayward was one of the midshipman who was in the open boat.

Harold: That's an interesting book to have. You must have really been interested in reading about the mutiny story. Was there anything in the log that Bligh has not told us about?

Marni

Our National day July 5th goes back along way in history, so best to give you some information about it and a web page link to assist as well.

The Island was ruled by the Vikings for over four hundred years, from when I am not certain, but about 800 AD to 1200AD. Besides settlements on the Island there was one in Ireland and the North West of England

Again, I am unsure of the date but one of the Norse leaders Gored Crovan successfully fought for power on the Island and ruled for about 15 years. At about this time our ÔTynwald ParliamentÕ was established; by the way Tynwald comes from the Norse ÔthingvallaÕ meaning assembly place. Godred CrovanÕs image is set in one of the stained glass windows of the Tynwald chamber in our capital Douglas.

The Isle of ManÕs parliament is supposed to be the longest unbroken parliament in the world. The outdoor Tynwald ceremony has continued to take place for over 1,000 years, only the details changing in that time. Originally it was held on June 24th, as the first recorded occasion was in 1417, however, then it was held on June 24th. It moved to its July 5th date later when the Island replaced the ÔJulian Calendar with the Gregorian CalendarÕ, several years after the United Kingdom had done so. If the Tynwald Day ceremony occurs on either a Saturday or Sunday, usually it is commemorated on the next Monday.

The Tynwald chamber in Douglas hosts the Islands Parliament building. There are two houses of Tynwald, the House of Keys and the Legislative Council. As it happens tomorrow November 23rd is General Election day on the Island to elect 24 members to the House of Keys.

Now on July 5th our National day both the House of Keys and Legislative Council meet at St. Johns for the open air sitting of Tynwald. This is the only day Tynwald meets in the open air and always on ÔTynwald DayÕ. The Lieutenant Governor usually presides at Tynwald Day representing the Queen, except on the occasions a member of the Royal Family is present.

The Tynwald ceremony takes place begins when the legislators and the QueenÕs representative assemble in the Chapel of St. John the Baptist and then in open air on the three tier mound on Tynwald Hill.

The hill is an artificially made one, made up of four circular platforms. The base is approximately 80 foot (24.5 metres) and the height from base to the top of the mound is about 12 foot (or nearly 3.75 metres).

Any bills that have received the Royal Assent are promulgated on Tynwald Day. Also members of the public are allowed to walk up to the Tynwald Hill and present petitions for the legislators to look into on their behalf. Most of the ceremony is conducted in English and our own Manx language.

There is a lot more to tell, but I think the link below will give a lot of information.

Also I have found a link with several short video clips showing Queen Elizabeth 11 arriving on the Island, arriving at St Johns, part of the Tynwald Church service and part of the Tynwald ceremony. However, to view these clips you will need Windows Media player 8 or higher. There are a few older clips on this link as well.

Marni

Let me know if I should include this link for the video clips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynwald_Day

Bodie

Samarang, on the island of Java, was another place the open boat stopped. You can see it on the map above. Here are illustrations of Samarang:

http://www.maps-charts.com/images/Polo%20Sud%20Image%2012-59.jpg

http://www.maps-charts.com/images/Polo%20Sud%20Image%2012-63.jpg

Bligh and his men made it to Batavia on the island of Java. Batavia is called Jakarta today and also is on the map above. Jakarta is the capital of Java. Here is info about Java from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(island)

Hi, Bodie. I was posting at the same time you were. I'll go back and read your message.

Bodie: I saw your note about Media Player and the video clips. I think many of us, if not all, have a version of Media Player. I have no idea what version mine is.

Go ahead and provide the link. We will either be able to see it or not. I'd like to try it.

This is so interesting to read about Isle of Man! Thanks, Bodie!

Marni

Gumtree: Do you have any additional information about the section of Australia/nearby islands where the open boat navigated on their way to Timor? What is it like today?

Marni

I to found Bligh's letter to his wife so moving, as it showed his deep love for Elizabeth and the children.

However, I am still not sure whether Captain Bligh was unaware of the Mutiny that occurred on the Bounty. I found the letters after the one to his wife very interesting. I want to read them a few times to see the importance they had in relation to Captain Bligh.

Both letters to Elizabeth's Uncle Desmond Campbell and Sir Joseph Banks were relevant in that they were conveying the bad news about the mutiny. These were more on a business level and I want to study them to see as I said the relevance of these letters.

On the link to the Queens visit to the Island and Tynwald Ceremony, there is a short clip of the Queen Mothers visit in 1949. Plus clips of other Royal family members visits to Tynwald.

http://www.gov.im/isleofman/tynwaldday.xml

Bodie

Bodie: The link worked for me. How interesting it was. I even heard a wee bit of the Manx language. It was very serious and somber, but I saw in the article that traditionally there is also a fair and dancing and music, plus a finale of fireworks. That part sounds more like our national day, July 4th. We celebrate the signing of our Declaration of Independence from England with parades, picnics, music (which usually includes the 1812 Overture for some reason), with a finale of fireworks.

Thank you for an interesting tidbit of your culture!

Marni

BODIE: how interesting the you have the oldest existing Parliament, and that it first met on (by the new calendar) July 5. ?Our Independence Day SHOULD also be July 5 -- that was the day our Declaration of Independence was signed, but it somehow got remembered on July 4.

I've finally found my book -- it disappeared while I was in California, fallen behind something. I've been reading madly (and skipping some) to catch up, and have them om Timor.

I don't understand why they felt they couldn't risk landing until a certain point, and then felt that they could land, if they kept watch for natives. It's probably in something I skipped. Can someone explain it?

JOAN, after being attacked by natives, and one crewman killed, on their first stop on the voyage, they were careful to avoid the natives thereafter. Where they did stop, there was no obvious signs of natives about, but they kept a watch in case any appeared.

Having Nelson, a botanist, with them was another blessing. On more than one occasion he was able to identify plants that were edible and safe. If you've been living mostly on bread and water, such supplements to the diet as beans were most welcome.

Bligh is careful to explain the apparent variations between some of his sightings and those recorded by Capt. Cook. "I ascribe this to the various forms in which land appears, when seen from the different heights of a ship and a boat." He also noted that Cook had more instruments at hand for accuracy. He evidently had the greatest respect for Cook, and did not wish to appear to be contradicting his findings.

I did get a smile when after documenting the weakness and miserable appearance of the crew, Bligh writes that "The boatswain very innocently told me, that he really thought I looked worse than any one in the boat. The simplicity with which he uttered such an opinion amused me, and I returned him a better compliment."

Babi

Marni

Glad the link worked, as I was not sure if it would work if posters had Apple Mac software. Yes a bit of Manx spoken as well, therefore will greet you and fellow posters with a good morning in Manx.

So, ÔMoghery MieÕ.

Only to pleased to give an insight to our way of life. I forgot to mention yesterday when I read Captain BlighÕs letter to Elizabeth, this sentence when he spoke about Fletcher Christian and Peter Heywood.

ÒI have now reason to curse the day I ever knew a Christian or a Heywood or indeed a Manks manÓ. I had forgot that Manx was written as Manks in the 18th century.

I did forget to add that Tynwald day always has its fairs, stalls, traditional dancing and a fireworks display. It does sound like your National Day with parades, picnics and music is similar to our National day.

JoanK

Yes both National days nearly on the same day.

Bodie

Well, I'm on the other side of the country from home, at my daughter's house, having just finished a magnificent feast of turkey with many side dishes and a nice wine, and I give thanks that it is not 1/18 of a pigeon-sized bird, 1/25 pound of rotten bread and a teaspoon of rum. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

I'll be back in the serious discussion soon, probably tomorrow.

AARGH!!! After typing a long post, with links, I accidentally exited! I'm not going to try to repeat the whole thing, just the last part.

You may be interested to know that Bligh was present during another famous mutiny, the Nore Mutiny, by the fleet at the Thames River. Bligh's ship was one of many present during this uprising, and tried to calm his crew during the whole affair. He was eventually sent ashore. There was also a Capt. John Bligh, who was one of the first to be jettisoned by his crew, which caused some confusion among later 'detractors' (per Irving) of Wm. Bligh.

NORE MUTINY

The leader of the mutiny was an elected 'president', Richard Parker, a man with a of belligerence and defiance of authority. For more on him...

RICHARD PARKER

Babi

I watched your links and found the ceremonies quite interesting. Do many of the present population speak the ancient language? Is it a Celtic language and do you understand it? Would the 18th century Bounty personnel from the Isle of Man have understood the language?

Last Sunday I watched the C-SPAN rerun of the opening of the new London Parliament that included the Queens speech to Parliament outlining the Governments coming legislative program. One of the programs included reference to the further devolution to greater local Government for Scotland and Wales. What changes does this current policy of devolution offer for the Isle of ManÕs connection to the UK?

Normally this C-SPAN Sunday night program is a re-run of Tony BlairÕs weekly question from MPÕs. I frequently watch it as I enjoy BlairÕs performance. Hollywood could not stage a better interest arousing performance!

As I remember the geography, the Isle of Man is in the Irish channel between England and Ireland. I presume this western location spared it German occupation during WW II as some of the English Channel Islands.

Harold

Such an intersting post from you, I will answer it hopefully tomorrow. Been out for most of the day, plus out to dinner this evening with family.

Bodie

Oh, some good posts are here! I'm checking in again after a couple of days of feasting and family visits. We had a wonderful time. Now I have to exercise and lose a few pounds!

JoanK: Hurrah! You found your book and have caught up! I see Babi has answered your good question.

Babi: That remark by Bligh about the boatswain commentng that Bligh's appearance was the worst of anyone - I detected a bit of a sense of humor there. I think it's really important for the readers to think about that Bligh was going through the same ordeals as everyone on the boat and still was able to lead and navigate and maintain control, getting his men to safety. The starvation, thirst, and battering by the elements took their toll on all of the men.

Do you suppose that the men's rundown condition may have contributed to any of the deaths in Batavia? Batavia was supposed to have been a real rathole back then, a place where many caught disease such as malaria and died. I imagine if your immune system were already compromised, it would be easier to fall victim to disease. And Bligh was one who became terribly ill in Batavia, although he did not die.

What did you think when Bigh put himself, his servant, and an aide on the first boat available home instead of others of the crew? What did you think when Bligh was not able to arrange for them all to go home together?

Babi: Bligh certainly did revere Captain Cook. It sounds like many people did. I wonder what Cook would have been able to accomplish if he had not been killed in Hawaii?

Thank you so much for the links to the Nore mutiny and Richard Parker - very interesting. I had never heard of them. I wonder how much rebellion in the ranks went on over the years. Something eventually came of it, obviously, because things have changed. For example, there is no more flogging in the navy.

PatH: We certainly were able to feast better than the poor crew of the open boat!!! I'm so glad you're enjoying your holiday.

Bodie: I was wondering if you noticed that sentence in the letter when Bligh said he cursed the day he ever knew a Manks man!

Speaking of the queen....I heard on the news that Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip will visit Jamestown in the state of Virginia in May to mark the 400th anniversary of the first permanent English settlement in America.

Babi provided us with interesting info about the Nore mutiny. I read about a near mutiny related in a way to our story of the Bounty mutiny.

Bligh got back home 11 months after the mutiny on the Bounty and he published his narrative just months afterwards. A courtmartial (routine when captains lose their ships) found him innocent and Bligh was hailed as a hero.

In 1790 the Admiralty arranged to send a 24-gun frigate, HMS Pandora, out to hunt down the Bounty mutineers and bring them back to England for trial. The captain was Edward Edwards. Edwards had already put down a near mutiny 9 years earlier when he commanded the Narcissus off the coast of northeast America.

According to Caroline Alexander in The Bounty, "Eventually, five of the would-be mutineers in this thwarted plot had been hanged, and two more sentenced to floggings of two hundred and five hundred lashes, respectively, while the leader of the mutiny had been hanged in chains. As events would show, Captain Edwards never forgot that he, the near victim of a mutiny, was now in pursuit of actual mutineers."

A lieutenant aboard the Pandora was recently-promoted Thomas Hayward who had been a midshipman on the Bounty. Hayward knew all the mutineers, the mutiny and the islanders.

The saga of the Pandora was a most incredible story.

Harold

I must admit I have not visited the Tynwald ceremony for a few years! One thing I forgot to mention is that those who take part and those watching the ceremony wear the Manx national flower, in Manx ÔBollan BaneÕ. Otherwise it is known as Mugwort. Now, as I am a gardener I know it by several other names. Such as Felon herb, St Johns plant and Chrysanthemum weed; should not say it but in certain places in the world it is regarded as a weed.

I am including a link below with some facts and figures about the Manx Language. Yes it is spoken on the Island now, however, it usage started to decline by the late 19th century and had nearly vanished by the mid 20th century; being replaced by English.

By the 1970Õs it saw a revival with some Manx speakers producing Manx in written form and with some programmes being broadcast on our local Radio station. It is on some of the schoolÕs curriculum and children from a young age can learn Manx and take exams regarding the Manx language. That to me is the best time to learn the language, at school as it will ensure the language remains part of our culture and heritage.

Manx is a Gaelic language and has close links to Irish Gaelic. I would think Fletcher Christian and Peter Heywood would have spoken the language while they were on the Island. I wonder were they allowed to talk in Manx to each other in private while aboard the Bounty.

Furthermore, I would think English would have been widely used Island at this time. Probably Captain Bligh would have spoken some Manx as Elizabeth his wife and her family, would have spoken Manx in the home.

The Isle of Man is not part of the United Kingdom, but is a crown dependency. Hence we have our own Government and the Queens representative here is known as the Lieutenant Governor. I donÕt think legislation going through Westminster will mean much in the way of change to the Island; as the Bill going through Westminster is more for devolution regarding Scotland and Wales.

Prime MinisterÕs question time at Westminster is always good viewing. Tony Blair is not very popular in the United Kingdom at present, neither is he with a small minority of his own party! On the other hand, he is a very good orator and his performances at question time are always good viewing.

We are situated as you say between England and Ireland, the nearest point being about 18 miles from Ramsey in the north of the Island, to I think the Mull of Galloway in Scotland. By the way the Island is 33 miles long and 13.5 miles wide with a population approximately 80,000, but it might be more than that now as we had our 10 year census taken a few months ago.

You were right about our western location sparing us occupation during the World War 11, though enlistment to the armed forces happened in the Island as well. The Island also had many prisoner of war camps located in around the Island.

Bodie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_language

16 of the men who had remained on the Bounty decided to stay on Otaheite. The men who stayed with Fletcher Christian on the Bounty eventually made their way to Pitcairn Island where the ship was burned and the men and natives with them made their home, had children, fought, killed each other, until only 1 Bounty crew member, John Adams, remained.

In Tahiti, Charles Churchill was murdered by Matthew Thompson who, in turn, was killed by Tahitians friendly to Churchill. The following men were captured by the crew of the Pandora: Josiah Coleman, Peter Heywood, George Stewart, Richard Skinner, Michael Byrne, James Morrison, Charles Norman, Thomas Ellison, William Muspratt, Thomas Burkit, John Millward, Henry Hillbrant, John Sumner, and Thomas McIntosh.

Captain Bligh had specifically told the admiralty that 3 of the men were innocent and detained against their will: Coleman, Norman, and McIntosh.

All of the captured crewmen, even those claimed innocent by Bligh, were clapped in irons and placed in a specially built cramped 11'x18' cage to the rear of the quarterdeck. The prisoners called it "Pandora's Box." This was where they remained chained in anguish for their trip home west across the Pacific, following Bligh's path.

The Pandora left Tahiti May 8, 1791, met with terrible weather, lost several of their small boats and men, and reached the Great Barrier Reef between Australia and New Guinea. On Aug. 29, the Pandora struck a reef violently and began to sink. The prisoners were still chained in Pandora's Box.

Coleman, Norman, and McIntosh were released to help bail. Four small boats were there with a small amount of supplies and weapons for evacuation. A crewman began to unchain the prisoners. Pandora's Box began to fill with water. Peter Heywood was the last prisoner to get out of the box. Richard Skinner, John Sumner, and George Stewart got out, but drowned. Henry Hilbrant never made it out of the box, and drowned.

Edwards group sailed for Coupang in the Dutch East Indies, the same port Bligh had made it to. As Alexander put it, "The irony that the Pandora's boats were to replicate part of Bligh's famous voyage is unlikely to have escaped anyone - least of all poor Thomas Hayward, who had been with Bligh and was thus about to embark on his second Pacific open-boat journey in a little more than two years. A voyage of some eleven hundred miles lay ahead."

They made it to Coupang on Sept. 16. No men were lost. All remaining prisoners were put in stocks in the fort placed in leg irons nearly naked.

The group all made it to Batavia by Oct. 30, remaining there for 7 weeks. All were divided up among 4 ships bound for Holland. The remaining 10 mutineers sailed on Christmas Day 1791 with Edwards on the Vreedenburg, commanded by Captain Christiaan. 15 of Edwards' men had died of "Batavian fever." The mutineers were released from their irons and allowed to walk on deck.

They were transferred to the Gorgon and eventually made it to England on June 19. The 10 mutineers were secured in the gunroom aboard the guardship Hector.

It's good to be back in the discussion. I read the last six chapters to keep up with the discussion, now am going back to read the chapters I missed.

I didn't phrase my question clearly enough. It's clear why Bligh was afraid to land after losing a man to the natives. But his behavior changes. At first, he stays away from islands completely, even though all his men are practically starving. But after he reaches a certain group of islands (I forget the name, he clearly relaxes (from the tone of the narrative), and is willing to come close to see if it looks safe to land. There has obviously been some change. Maybe something obvious -- perhaps the first group was so heavily populated that it was obvious even from a distance that they couldn't land. Or he knew from other explorers that the second group was lightly populated. But if he tells us what the difference was, I didn't catch it.

I believe he was willing to go ashore on those islands where he knew there where European settlements hoping the natives would be friendly.

Bligh writes about seeing high mountains on some of the islands. Is it possible some of these mountains could have been volcanoes? I think earlier in the book Bligh mentioned a volcano. I can't remember for sure.

Bligh also talks about mangrove bushes. I have heard of mangrove trees not bushes. Do mangroves grow with their roots in the water? May be I am thinking of another tree.

Bodie, are you saying some places think of our beautiful chrysanthemum as a weed? I heard a famous lady on tv, before Thanksgiving, talking about chrysanthemums. She didn't have many good words for the chrysanthemum. For the autumn, she preferred the aster.

William Bligh wrote about "the Malay fashion." He describes their clothing as "richly ornamented with jewels." Their clothing must have been very beautiful, maybe richly embroidered too.

Hats

Here on the Island, like many other locations in the world we have chrysanthemums and yes it is a lovely plant; one of my favourites.

However, the chrysanthemum is a close cousin of the mugwort weed, as its leaves in some ways resemble the chrysanthemum, which is why mugwort it is sometimes called wild chrysanthemum or chrysanthemum weed. If mugwort is sometimes called chrysanthemum weed, it means mugwort is thought as a weed to some people not chrysanthemums.

I prefer chrysanthemums to many plants, as they are ideal for the garden as they do give a lovely splash of colour to late summer and autumn borders. In addition, they are often still going strong up to within a few weeks of Christmas as long as there are no hard frosts.

Bodie

Hi Bodie, thank you for writing more about the chrysanthemum. By the way, I have enjoyed all of your posts. I love hearing about where you live the Isle of Man. I hope my spelling is correct.

Hats

Thanks for kind words, I love all flowers, shrubs and everything to do with gardening. My job for years and because of hand disability I had to give it up a few years ago. Miss it so much!

Got the spelling spot on. The Isle of Man in Manx is 'Ellan Vannin'.

Bodie

Hats and Bodie: This is really fun and exciting sharing botanical information and culture between countries! I can't seem to find a photo of Artemisia vulgaris (mugwort - reminds me of Harry Potter!). Bodie: Do you have one you can show us?

Kidsal: Thanks for taking a crack at JoanK's question. I don't have any other answers for you, Joan. It was a good question. Maybe, too, they were so thirsty and starving by that point that they were willing to be a bit more risky and go on land if it did not appear that natives were nearby. I know when they saw natives in islands off Australia, they did not go ashore.

Hats: I was wondering about the volcanoes, too. Indonesia, which is part of the Asia-Pacific "Ring of Fire," has at least 129 active volcanoes. Mt. Merapi, an active volcano, is on Java where Coupang and Batavia were. In 1994 a gas cloud from Mt. Merapi killed 60 people. People were evacuated from the area this spring because Mt. Merapi was erupting again. Here are some pictures of some Indonesian volcanoes:

http://www.decadevolcano.net/photos/indonesia_photos.htm

Marni, thank you for the link.

Here's a cool picture, an illustration of the HMS Pandora sinking drawn by Peter Heywood:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/marni_04/pandora-foundering-large.gif

Does anyone want to take a turn answering a question above?

Marni

This link gives a lot of information on Mugwort.

Bodie

http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/organicweeds/weed_information/weed.php?id=101

Bodie: Thanks for the mugwort info. The section called "Mugshots of mugwort" was a cute idea. I just thought of why it reminded me of Harry Potter. Regular humans are called "muggles" in the books.

Glad to see you all back from your Thanksgiving jaunts- we don't have it here but all this talk about turkeys and pecan pies reminds me that Christmas will be with us all too soon and we'll be indulging then - DIL does most of the cooking these days - and loves it -for which I am truly grateful!

In regard to question 5: I believe the reason Bligh did not stop at Eastern Timor was because he was unsure of his reception by the native Timorese and that he knew that he and his men were in too weakened a state to be able to defend themselves - he simply could not risk it.

His uncertainty about the islanders intentions was also why he did not stop at the islands earlier.

As for Batavian Fever - this was a real killer - I don't know the cause but we have a distant family connection, a Scot who was an orientalist - had worked in India etc - went to Batavia with Stamford Raffles in 1816? and was struck down within 24 hours of arriving - lingered a few weeks and then died. - maybe caused by an airborne virus or mosquitoes - does anyone know? If caused by gas - why weren't others taken ill as well?

Question 4 asks - Do you think Bligh held back too much food and water?

I think Bligh is to be admired for his strength of mind in sticking to his rationing despite the distress he could see in his men. His decision to use up the salt pork when pilfering became a problem was also a good idea - firstly it gave the men a little more sustenance and then shared it out fairly.

Bligh's decision to ration the bread even further to make it last a little longer would not have been taken lightly - but Bligh knew he could face longer at sea than he was expecting - even a little bread would be better than none if the journey had taken longer.

I was impressed by the way Bligh housed his men in the quarters allocated to himself rather than have them split up unnecessarily after they arrived. I think psychologically it would have been the right thing to keep the men together for a time after the trials and deprivation they had endured.

Although we are reading only one side of the story there is much in Bligh's favour - even allowing for his reticence on some matters.

Blight probably wanted to keep the men together and near him. He wasn't sure of why the other men committed mutiny and didn't want the men with him to change their version of the events.

NOTE: The Story of Civilization is taking a short break, and will start reading about the Renaissance on Sunday, December 3. This is a great chance to join the discussion. You don't have to buy the book, since Robby posts it bit by bit online, and we respond to his posts.

This should be a great discussion. Whatever we discus, we always post many links -- this should be a great opportunity to see much of the great art of the period, and discuss it.

We have a lot of fun in that discussion. Some are knowledgeable about history or art; others, like me, are complete novices. But it's amazing how often we see parallels to our own lives in the lives of people in the past. As Durant says "This is about YOU".

Durant says it better than I can:

Ò"It is a mistake to think that the past is dead. Nothing that has ever happened is quite without influence at this moment. The present is merely the past rolled up and concentrated in this second of time. You, too, are your past; often your face is your autobiography; you are what you are because of what you have been; Ò Just as you can only be understood by understanding your past, Ò So with a city, a country, and a race; it is its past, and cannot be understood without it."

That sketch of the Pandora sinking is beautifully drawn. Peter Heywood was quite a good artist.

Q. 7. Batavia was a horror. With rotting animals poisoning the air, the heat, and the houses in town jammed together as tho' this was the Netherlands instead of Java....it's no wonder diseases flourished. And then the merchants of the town, overcharging the sailors. And if that auction of the boat was not rigged by the buyer ahead of time, I'd be greatly surprised. It is most fortunate for Bligh and his crew that the Governor and the 'gentlemen' of the settlement were friendly and generous. And then the rate of exchange on the money! These people were sharks!

Babi

I was reading about the court-martial of the Bounty prisoners.

I think Captain Bligh had informed prior to the court martial that Coleman, Norman, McIntosh, and Byrn were not part of the mutiny.

However, it said that under the law in England it mattered not whether a man actively participated in seizing command of the ship or took no action to oppose the mutiny.

Seems a harsh law, as the men in question might have been restrained from offering assitance to Captain Bligh. And by all reports Michael Bryn was nearly blind. It Must have been a terrible ordeal for him!

As it happened the four men were acquiited

Bodie

Ginger was interested in the national flower of Isle of Man that Bodie shared with us. Ginger sent us this link. Thanks, Ginger. http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/m/mugwor61.html

Gumtree: You're right. Christmas is right around the corner. It follows so quickly on the heels of Thanksgiving here in the US. I roasted my turkey yesterday and we had another nice dinner. I like to roast my own turkey because we go to my sister's for Thanksgiving. We enjoy leftovers and my dad in the nursing home is looking forward to a turkey sandwich that I'll bring down on Wednesday.

Thanks for sharing the story about your relative struck down with Batavian Fever. Wow, 24 hours. What is that fever, anyway? So many men just from the Bounty and the Pandora were struck down with it. I'm going to hunt.....

On one site, I found "Most people died young in Batavia due to 'the fever' - malaria. It was most unhealthy, tropical with a high rainfall and poor drainage. The city drains were always loaded with breeding mosquitoes." http://farrer.csu.edu.au/ASGAP/APOL26/jun02-6.html

But I also found info about another mosquito-born illness, Dengue fever: "Although first reports of major epidemics of an illness thought to possibly be dengue occurred on three continents (Asia, Africa, and North America) in 1779 and 1780.....It is uncertain whether the epidemics in Batavia (Jakarta), Indonesia, and Cairo, Egypt, in 1779 were dengue, but it is quite likely that the Philadelphia epidemic of 1780 was dengue..."

Hmmmmm

Gum and Kidsal: I, too, was thinking Bligh housed his men in his house together so they would be more comfortable and be cared for. The house seemed roomy with plenty of space for all and they would be together for a recovery period, which they certainly all needed.

Babi: I was shocked to read the description of Batavia and the disease. When I think of the Dutch, I think of cleanliness. Did anyone see the film "Girl With the Pearl Earring"? Remember how the women were always scrubbing the floors and stairs, etc.? That's what I've always read about the Dutch women. Wouldn't you think they'd carry these habits to the Dutch East Indies?

Of course, the climate was completely different. Did you notice on our map above how close to the Equator Batavia is? It must have been so dreadfully hot and humid. There was so much water around and, apparently, plenty of mosquitos.

Bodie: I thought that was so horrible that Captain Edwards of the Pandora treated those men the same as the others when Bligh had made it clear they were innocent. To be chained in irons and caged up nearly naked, treated like an animal really, for such a long terrible trip - and then the disaster of the Pandora sinking and their long trip in open boats to Batavia etc. What a horror. They were not freed until they were found innocent at their courtmartial.

Marni

Marni

This link on Manx Wild Flowers I think is interesting.

Bodie

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/mwf1908/text.htm

Bodie: You have so many flowers there, even though the article says you don't have many compared to other countries.

In the US, our individual states have state flowers. I live in Connecticut in New England and our state flower is mountain laurel (Kalmia latifolia). It's very beautiful, comes in a variety of colors, and is evergreen. It's a flowering bush and can get quite large. Clumps of flowers grow in puffs all over the bush. Here's a picture:

http://www.ct.gov/ctportal/cwp/view.asp?a=885&q=246494

In 1986, Congress designated the rose as the national flower of the United States. (I just found that out.)

The drawing of the foundering of Pandora was impressive - I couldn't help but imagine though, how terrible it would have been in that ship to be locked in the cage. ~JudyS

Judy: Wasn't that so terrible!??! Pandora's Box. Chained up, knowing the boat is sinking, hearing the sounds of the crew running around salvaging things, the cage filling with water.....

Here's the story of the HMS Pandora for anyone interested: http://www.maritimehistory.info/mutiny/shipwreck.html

Peter Heywood brought this up at his courtmartial. I wonder if it had anything to do with finding him innocent. Of course, his influential family had a great deal to do with getting him off, plus words of others being courtmartialed. Also, he was very young when the mutiny occurred.

Heywood was freed after the courtmartial. He went back into the service and eventually was promoted to post captain.

Not everyone courtmartial was found innocent, though. Does anyone know who was found guilty and hanged?

Perhaps one reason Bligh didn't stop at the native settlements on Timor is that they were so small and poor looking. He needed food and medical attention for 18 men, the sooner the better, and this could only be obtained in the big settlement. He didn't seem to be afraid of the natives; when he got close to the settlement, hecontacted them.

Marni

Thank you for the link about the Mountain Laurel. Would I be right that it is also known as the Calico Bush?

It shows you learn something new every day! I never knew that individual states had state flowers.

My eldest sister, husband and son holidayed in New England in early September and they really enjoyed their time there. I think the son is hoping to return next year.

Bodie

Pat H: Wasn't that section something to consider - Bligh's decision to continue on rather than stop "for refreshment" at a more easterly location on Timor? They were in such dire straits, but he made the decision to sail/row on to Coupang. He had already been through the area with Captain Cook and knew a bit about the area. As you said, Bligh needed food and medical attention for his men which could only be obtained in the big settlement. I can imagine his decision to continue on must have caused some dissention on the boat.

Bodie: I've never heard of the term Calico Bush used for mountain laurel. I'm glad your relatives enjoyed their stay in New England. I love it here.

Marni

Just looked again at the link you gave me for the Mountain Laurel and it does say it is known as the Calico Bush which I thought it was.

I see it is also called sometimes Spoonwood, which again is something new learned today.If I remember it is a distant relation to the Rhododendron.

Bodie

I was just wondering if the Captain kept some type of journal during the trip on the small boat. There was so much detail as to latitude and longitude, the type and amount of food eaten on each day, etc. I certainly couldn't remember all that. Also he kept up his interest in the types of flora and fauna found along the way and still kept us informed about the customs and living conditions of all the different people he came across on the trip. Didn't he have enough to think about just trying to keep everyone alive? Do you suppose he did any embellishment of his observations after he got home?

When Bligh and his men were put into the boat, his clerk managed to bring the ship's papers, Bligh's commission (a very important piece of paper), and his journal. It would be a matter of course for Bligh to continue to keep a log, with navigational and other observations, just part of sailing the boat to him.

Court Martial

The court martial began on the morning of September 12th 1792 on board H.M.S. Duke and continued by adjournment from day to day (Sunday excepted) until the 18th of the same month.

The Court Martial was conducted by the following:

Vice Admiral Lord Hood - President

Sir Andrew Snape Hamond - Captain

Bart John Colpoys - Captain

Sir George Montague - Captain

Sir Roger Curtis - Captain

John Bazeley - Captain

Sir Andrew Snape Douglas - Captain

John Thomas Duckworth - Captain

John Nicholson Inglefield - Captain

John Knight - Captain

Albermarie Bertie - Captain

Richard Goodwin Keats - Captain

Bodie

Bodie: I didn't realize that the mountain laurel was a relative of the rhododendron. I have both in my back yard and they both have year-round leaves and clumps of flowers in the spring. They do have some things in common, now that I think about it. Here's what the small-leafed rhododendron looks like in the spring. (It's next to the weeping cherry tree.) http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/marni_04/WeepingCherryTree.jpg

antlerlady: If I remember correctly, Bligh wrote that Midshipman Heywood had a book of some sort or a ledger and Bligh used some blank pages from it to write his journal in the open boat.

Pat H: What do you suppose would have been problems for Bligh if he had not been able to bring his commission along?

Bodie: Thank you for the list of courtmartial judges. Did they need some sort of quorum to proceed?

I've been making a list also - a list of what happened to the mutineers brought to courtmartial:

1. Thomas Ellison Ð found guilty at the court-martial and hanged on HMS Brunswick at Spithead on October 29, 1792, age 17

2. John Millward - found guilty at the court-martial and hanged on HMS Brunswick at Spithead on October 29, 1792

3. Thomas Burkett - found guilty at the court-martial and hanged on HMS Brunswick at Spithead on October 29, 1792

4. James Morrison - found guilty at the court-martial and condemned to death; received the KingÕs pardon and was freed

5. Peter Heywood - found guilty at the court-martial and condemned to death; received the KingÕs pardon and was freed

6. William Muspratt - found guilty at the court-martial and sentenced to be hanged; appealed and was freed

7. Michael Burn - acquitted at the court-martial

8. Joshua Coleman - acquitted at the court-martial

9. Thomas McIntosh - acquitted at the court-martial

10. Charles Norman Ð acquitted at the court-martial

Did I miss anyone who was brought home as prisoner?

I found the info here: http://library.puc.edu/pitcairn/bounty/crew.shtml

By the way, William Bligh was not at the courtmartial of the men above. He was not there to speak his piece. He was already on a 2nd breadfruit voyage to go to Otaheite and collect breadfruit plants to bring to the West Indies.

Re #8: Bligh wrote that he notified the authorities of the mutineers in the various stops on the way home and in letters to England. It seems that wherever the Bounty would have sailed in areas of European civilization, if Fletcher Christian and crew had done so, they would eventually have been captured.

I read in the Alexander book The Bounty that the crew of the Resolution, which had been parted for months from the Pandora (since before it sank), was held up by authorities in Coupang because it was thought they might have had a part in the mutiny. Finally they were allowed to sail to Batavia where they were able to meet up again with the rest of the Pandora crew. The world definitely was on the lookout for the mutineers.

I love the name Calico Bush. I think of pretty fabric in pastel colors. I have never heard of a Calico Bush. We do learn something everyday.

Marni the photo is beautiful. I love Rhododendrons especially the deep pink you have shown. I love, love that Weeping Cherry Willow. I have never seen one. The Weeping Cherry is just too gorgeous.

"He was already on a 2nd breadfruit voyage to go to Otaheite and collect breadfruit plants to bring to the West Indies."

Marni, this is your quote. Obviously, William Bligh didn't allow the mutineers to kill his spirit. He didn't lose his courage. He went on another voyage. I wonder did William Bligh lose his trust. Sometimes betrayal by other people can cause us to become frightened of starting deep relationships. Bligh was very, very close to Fletcher Christian, and no matter the reasons, he betrayed Bligh's friendship. When a mutiny happens on a captain's ship, does he keep his courage and lose his trust?

Earlier, I think it was mentioned some men were hung. I can't remember. Were all of the mutineers penalized in a different way? Did some get away with the rebellion?

MARNI, thanks for your info. on what happened to the mutineers who were captured. I had seen a briefer account, but it did not note that Morrison and Heywood were found guilty, but were pardoned by the King. Family influence likely came to the fore there. I did wince to see that a 17 yr.-old boy was hanged.

Boys as young as 10-12 were going to sea as cabin boys in those days, so I suppose a 17 yr.-old was considered an experienced adult.

The Pandora's 'box' was a horrible contrivance. I can only suppose that Capt. Edwards' own experience with an attempted mutiny left him harsh and angry. He knew, however, that Capt. Bligh had specifically said three of the men had not stayed by their own choice, and he could have made an exception there.

Babi

Hats: Re "When a mutiny happens on a captain's ship, does he keep his courage and lose his trust?" That's a good question. I would think that surely mutiny would have an impact. As Babi said, "I can only suppose that Capt. Edwards' own experience with an attempted mutiny left him harsh and angry." That seems to be for sure.

I am amazed at how the navy men could get themselves right up again and go back to the sea. I can't imagine being that brave. I guess Bligh was used to the terrors of the sea because he had been working at sea since he was a boy and kept going back. Maybe some people are just meant for it. Maybe some like Bligh thrive in adversity. It seemed the best came out when he was in terrible conditions. He was very ill at times during the voyage back, but he carried on.

Look at young Midshipman Hayward. He headed out as a newly promoted lieutenant with Captain Edwards to catch the mutineers. Maybe he had revenge on his mind. But, maybe, too, he had career on his mind. This is what they did, how they earned a living.

Here's the testimony of Midshipman Hayward at the courtmartial. It's interesting because you can see the kinds of questions he was asked and you see another's version of the events:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Bounty/haywardtranscript.html