Well, some of us are off to the beach to gather seashells, and others are shoveling snow! Where's the justice? Did you notice the TBD designation here? That stands for "TO BE DECIDED"...by YOU all! What do you think? Is this good holiday fare -to start Dec. 1 - or do you want to wait until January, say the 15th?

This is the real thing! So true you'd wish it was fiction! The tape is available too...just indicate interest and we'll put your name on the sign-up list in the rotation!

Don't miss this one!

Hi, everybody! Isn't this a beautiful heading? Doesn't it make you want to don your climbing gear and head out for the nearest peak? No? Well then, pull up a chair and let's read about people who do just that.

I'm really excited about this book. I've just purchased it, but to tell the truth, haven't actually had time to start reading it yet. But whichever starting date is chosen is okay by me. I read fast.

Lorrie

As I understand it this is a duel in words between Krakauer account of what happened in his book and this version of the story written using Boukreev's words.

Sounds like interesting tales full of heroism and for me I would want to read both books to get a clearer picture of the politics involved here. Therefore, since the busiest time of the year is approaching this would be great to snuggle safely with, curled under an aphgan just after the holidays. Would we have to wait till Jan. 15?? What about January 7 or 8?? If we have what looks like a rainy winter our snuggling most likely will cease by the end of January.

AVALANCHE (pronounced "AV-uh-Lanch").

As destructively terrible as an avalanche can be, embedded within it is the Latin word for "valley," _vallis_ — a word whose flavor changes, depending on the weather.

Mountainous country is certainly beautiful in the winter; It's essential to stay reasonably quiet — and not sing songs like, "Down in the valley," because all too often, a shout or shot or any excessive sound can shake loose overwhelming amounts of snow and ice.

In an avalanche, these frozen layers, mixed with mud and boulders, slide immediately and swiftly down the slopes as deadly masses that often become snowy shrouds over everything and everyone in the way of their booming, crashing, deafening paths.

The derivation of this word includes not only the Latin word for "valley," but also the French _avaler_, "to descend" — which is what an avalanche certainly does, thunderously.

I have bought this book and am anxious to read it along with you, but simply cannot begin until at least January 2, 2001!

I'm game. I read Into Thin Air and am interested to learn another's story of the disaster.

By the way, when did Boukreev die? I can't find a date in the linked articles above.

Betty, Ginny is off for the week, so you are all on your own for the preparation for this adventure. I'm sure that date must be included somewhere in the links above. If not, perhaps someone would like to conduct a search?

When is a good start date for most of you? We've heard from Mary Page for certain. Is there anyone else who would rather wait on this one...till after the holidays?

Also, if you'd like to get on the list above for the tape, just mention that here and it will be mailed to you in turn...

January is fine with me, although I could be ready to read it before then if everyone else agreed. I expect it to be a fast read.

How about right after New Year's, Mary Page, Betty, Barbara, and anyone else who pops in? Yes, Betty, I have the book now, and it doesn't look all that thick.

Lorrie

Yes, Great!

Right after New Years is Perfection!

Having just gone crazy moving, I now have to plunge into the insanity of trying to select the suitable items for my long Christmas Gift list. Then do a myriad of cards. I have a dozen books started already, and it would be nice to finish those before toasting 2001. Thank you for being considerate! Surely you are all in the same place? Well, maybe sans the moving part.

Lorrie I would like to see the video of the Climb Please. Ginger

Sure thing, Ginger! Your name will go up there shortly. Anyone else want to view the video of Mt. Everest? They say it's stupendous!

Lorrie

All right, now, this looks like a mandate for January 2, and we now have two versions of the Everest video, the DVD one and the VHS one so you takes your choice.

This is a splendid choice for January in the snow, and one requirement of the reading will BE your own trek out in the snow for versimilitude! Yes, and we will report on same! Yes! ( Don't panic, I'm kidding, you can reach out the window and make snow cream if you don't want to crunch forth)!

We shall climb it together, who else is interested? I guarantee you this IS a book to read, I must go refresh memory on the Krakauer myself so I can be ready!

Lace up those boots!

We may even look at poor Mallory who had practically nothing on when his body was finally found last year, how on earth he ever climbed anything is beyond me. He's the one who said, "because it's there."

Meanwhile I'll start readying things here at our base camp for the climb.

Sherpa Ginny

I would like the VHS please. Ginger

Me, too!

Lorrie

Sherpa Ginny, well, I've got my high-powered lens ready to follow your progress up the slope. I'll be drinking hot buttered rum by the old rock fireplace, following your every step. My base camp will be at the chalet....because it's there.

May I sit here next to you, Betty? Is there a mug with my name on it?

I didn't get finished, before I had to return it to the Library.... But I can borrow it again when you are ready to go.

Ah, certainment (as Faith would say), MaryPage. Your mug is ready and so's your overstuffed chair with overstuffed footstool. You can borrow my telescopic lens anytime to see sherpa Ginny's red face and stiff limbs.

Never fear, our intrepid Sherpa Ginny, I am here with you, climbing gear all set, to make the climb along with you and any other adventurous people who have guts enough to join us instead of sitting on some balcony in some chalet sipping hot whatever and making smart remarks! Onward and Upwards!

Lorrie

Color me gutless, with brains. Have borrowed my son-in-law's duck hunting binoculars and will cheer you on until you are specks in the sky! Umm, snuggly warm with this hot cocoa and my down-filled throw. Hey, pour just a skoch of that stuff you're drinking in my mug, would'ya Betty!

Hey, Lorrie, I've got the cell phone to call for medics and search parties if you radio in for help. You might want to be nice to me and MaryPage.

Looks like a fun Climb.. Need I bring a small oxygen concentrator?

What is it with this group? First, off into the wild blue yonder you sail with The Ancient one , now you're ascending mountains with the Russioans. You tire me out. How 'bout if I stay home and get the hot chocolate ready for you. Climbing up the Mt. isn't the hard part for me. With this knee it is climbing back down that gives me grief.

Andy: Never fear! I will carry you down on my back! Remember, "you're not heavy---you're my Bookie sister!"

Lorrie

Hugs to you, you little turkey.

Do those of you who want to view the movie want it now or would you want to wait till after the holidays?

I think I'll wait, on my part, because it's a tough subject and it's pretty warm here at the moment, want to get in the MOOD.

I'm so glad we're reading this, I always felt that Boukreev did not have his say and now we'll give him one.

I'm looking forward to it.

How many of you have read the Krakauer? I will try to get it again from the library and see if I can reread the parts in which they differ, most of those are at the end.

ginny

Ginny, I think I'd rather wait until after Christmas? How about you, Ginger?

Lorrie

BLOCKBUSTER has "Everest" in its DOCUMENTARY section. I had no trouble finding it and checking it out. Very beautifully filmed. Very, very scary. BETTY, I'm betting these "gutsy" gals are going to run screeching back to base camp and shove in between us in front of the fireplace just as soon as they find out those ladders they have to pack along up there are for placing across BOTTOMLESS CHASMS and walking across with all their gear! Color me smirkily gutless! love from marypage

Nah, they'll do fine, MaryPage. By the time they reach any icy, slippery, bottomless chasms to cross, they'll be oxygen-deprived and won't be hampered by fear or doubt.

Of course, our fireside rum drinks may produce similar symptoms.

But we will have no where to fall! We can just go to sleep on our many-pillowed chaises, under our heavenly warm blankets.

WATCH it, you Guys, you may find yourselves hanging off the mountain! hahahaha

Scary, Mary Page? Wow!! I'm very intersted in seeing it and I was going thru some magazines yesterday and found the issue of Vanity Fair with the huge article about Mallory's body in it.

I don't remember too much about the Krakauer, do any of you? I remember he made a point about the woman who made it harder on all the others as she was not "ready" and insisted that others carry her burden, he didn't seem to think too much of that.

Likewise he really didn't think too much of Boukreev's not using an oxygen tank and I guess there is where the argument started.

But he leaves out his own part and it seemed to me it was a signifigant part, in not beiing of use (Boukreev said he tried to get him to help which K left out of his own book, if I remember correctly).

I really need to get that book again, it's still on the best seller lists, too.

You all can say what you will, but I am prepared for this trip. I have my own heated tent, my own wireless service and my own food! I am ready!!!

I can't wait to read this with you all! I really wanted somebody to talk to when I first read it.

Welcome to all others who may be watching, stomp on up here thru the snow, and stake out your place at the campfire, we start UP on January 2, just waiting here for the weather contitions to clear. (They did the same thing in the book!)

Sherpa Ginny

Sherpa Ginny: Pay no heed to those nay-sayers down below! Your group is gearing up with all this equipment and we're rarin' to go! That was interesting about Mallory's body--I think I'm going to have to read the first book ahead of time, in order to compare.

Clara the Climber

I don't want to look at any dead, frozen bodies. Do you, Betty? Nyeh ----------. Hey, here come the pots of fondue, with dipping breads. Cheese, beef and chocolate! Make room!

The Krakauer. Ginny, this is so weird. I'm almost certain I read the book because I recall a lot of the guy's story---but I could just be remembering reading lengthy accounts. Who knows. I've looked for the book, thinking I still might have it, but no luck. I'm pretty sure I read it---because I, too, remember lots of holes about Krakauer's part. Plenty about the others, and yes, about someone, must have been the woman, who was ill prepared. That had become commonplace, if I remember correctly---to allow adventure-seekers to join groups of skilled climbers.

I believe I read a long, detailed account complete with loads of pictures and maps in NEWSWEEK at the time that this tragedy occurred. I think it was followed up with later, shorter articles about, forinstance, how the doctor from Dallas was doing, etc.

Now I do think the Dallas doctor was another trip, I do remember him, but he was not of that party!

See what eating fondue does for you? hahahaha

Yeah, as much as I disliked the Krakauer I need to get it again, it's now in paperback I believe and once again on the best seller lists, but there is a LOT on the internet, check out the urls in the heading.

The Mallory body was astounding, the photographers were condemned for publishing it but it's so poignant, if I put it in here I will do it as a clickable.

It's hard to imagine such conditions, and I really want to hear the squeak of snow in the movie, I do think it will set the tone perfectly.

Well said, Clara the Climber! hahahaha We'll get a list up of our own party in the heading here, Fondue lovers and all! hahahaha

Sherpa Ginny (I had not realized until I looked over those footnotes that one of the Sherpas also took issue with Krakauer!)

Ginny, I went to the library today to get Dakota Born and it will not be in till tomorrow if then but picked up Animal Farm and read it so it goes back tomorrow. I did get The Climb today and it will be read now and then maybe, hopefuly get it again when it starts. hopefuly, hopefuly. Up again, Ginger

Fabulous, Ginger, I'm so glad you're feeling better, just thinking about this one makes me COLD! I keep trying to find a Krakauer, will try again, there were several passages I thought I wanted to read back over.

ginny

Having followed our Sherpa through London, Rye, even under the Channel to Brussels, I could not make this trip. Just don't give her a map...it only confuses things.

I've read Krakauer and am now looking forward to this one.

Fran

Get outta here,our FRAN! Welcome, welcome, delighted to have you here, what do you MEAN "followed," as I recall, you led the way and I meekly followed! Look out, CLIMBERS, Sherpa Fran has a pick axe! hahahahahaa Besides, she's probably BEEN to Everest.

What fun! hahahahaa

Sherpa Alpha Dog

I meant to say "I could not NOT follow her" on this new trip.

Yeah, the last time I was on the top of Everest I saw Sherpa Alpha Dog's flag, but it was getting a bit tattered. High winds, you know.

Must write a new song: "On Top of Old Everest" -- but Ginny won't let me sing it, anyway.

Fran

You got that right, Singing Sherpa Fran.

hahaha, write one anyway! We'll all sing it! I'll get the MIDI for on top of old Everest for those stay at homes who plan to only stick an arm out the window when the time comes to break camp!

Non Singing Sherpa Alpha

Oh dear, me and my biiiiiiiiiiggggg mouth.

Ginny, I think you are mistaken. The Dallas doctor WAS part of the group that suffered the disaster on Everest. The thing is, there were many, many separate climbing parties involved. But he definitely suffered his dreadful injuries from that terrible storm. He is in the documentary film EVEREST as well.

REALLY? That Beck something? No kidding, MaryPage, well then I need to read the Krakauer again, I was not impressed with him at all, Beck Weathers or something like that?

I did not make that connection, SEE what sitting by the fire with hot cocoa does to improve the brain? In the base camp???? hahahaa Can I claim frozen brain? hahahaha

I've ordered the Krakauer in paperback, I hope it has an index!

ginny

Yes, MaryPage - I remember that the doctor (Beck) was in that party too. I think one of the key problems was that there were so many different climbing parties up on Everest that year that the "traffic jam" trapped people up near the summit and caused their deaths.

I read Into Thin Air a year or two ago. It was one of the few action/adventure books I've ever read - and I could NOT put it down. I became fascinated with all accounts about this fateful storm on Everest.

I'll get the book and join the discussion in January.

I seem to recall that Boukreev was portrayed well in Into Thin Air. Am I remembering wrong?

HEY, our Sarah, welcome welcome and a big blue cold

Welcome!!

No, in fact, as I recall (but we can already see how clear that is) Krakauer actually blamed a good bit of the problems on Boukreev, and they did have a sort of point counterpoint there for a while with the lead Sherpa joining in, too.

It's fascinating to read the other side of the story, I hope those of you who do remember the Krakauer will please chime in, obviously I need to reread it!

ginny

Should we have Into Thin Air as a "sub-read" for this discussion? (I know we've already officially read it here at SN, but it might be interesting to read both for this discussion.) Into Thin Air is a VERY fast read - I think I read it in a day!

Sherpa Ginny: Could we now see the vcr tape? I've been reading Into Thin Air and it would seem apropos.

Lorrie

Sure, Lorrie, I'll mail it to you tomorrow, and let's do both, Sarah, my copy of Into Thin Air just came too!

Also in the very latest People magazine is another survivor, a man who SKIED just now down from Mt. Everest, he was one of the ones on this now famous climb we will be looking at, and apparently he skied over the body of one of those who fell on that climb. I found that a little disconcerting.

If you all get a chance to see the article, do, I thought it was very apropos, myself!

Mailing tomorrow, great idea, let us know how bad it is, MaryPage said it was very exciting!

ginny

It was exciting, but watch out if you suffer from vertigo. I felt vertigo sitting in an armchair and watching the tape!

Shoot, I'll just stay down here in front of the fire and get vertigo induced by my hot toddy. Ya'll go on up there and let me know how it was when you get back down here. I'll keep some toddy mix for you. At least, if you make decent time, I will.

Well here I am, at last! We've lost several of our climbers to sick bay on the way up and they are resting comfortably, I hope, and securely at Base Camp.

Like Anatoli, I, too, am late but am reading both the Krakauer and the Boukreev in tandem, for each step of the way. It's an interesting contrast between the two, what is hinted and what is not.

Krakauer points out the immense piles of trash on the mountain and the efforts of the climbing teams to bring trash down each time they come. Looks to me like the Sherpas get to bring the most of it, did it you?

I was stunned at the tremendous numbers of people assembling on this mountain despite the horrendous cost. It did seem to me that that Charlotte Fox was kinda skipped over in that she has apparently climbed more of those 8,000ks than almost anybody, certianly more than the men.

Not sure what Miss Gammelgaard's big deal is, and Sandy Pitman gets a very different treatment in both books.

Would you say from your reading at this point that the Mountain Madness Team was as well prepared as Rob Hall's? Would you have been confident to go up with them?

Do you personally have any desire to climb mountains, much less in the snow?

I was surprised at the conditions around Kathmandu too, it's a miracle they weren't all sick, did that surprise you?

What do you think here in these first 50 pages?

Late Sherpa Ginny

Tonight (January 2) my local PBS station is going to show a Nova program about climbing Everest. Watch for it on your local stations.

Fran

I have both books as well, but am not 50 pages along. Trying!

Francisca, I am watching the dreadful Everest film on PBS as I write. Ghastly, looking at that white, frozen body of George Mallory.

Nix the reading....I'm watching the PBS special on Mallory, too.

I appreciate so much, Fran, that notice I taped it but such is my clever set up here you can't watch and tape at the same time, that's another project we have aborning for the coming weeks.

LIsten, let's discuss the Mallory thing. You know these people were severely criticized for making this movie and showing these pictures.

I have a huge long article on Mallory including the shots of him in the snow, there's one you have to see, but the thing that stands out and shouts at me is the lack of clothing they had ON? Just look at how they dressed and compare that to how the modern mountaineer dressed, it's a miracle Mallory got as far as he did.

I hope to have the tape watched by this afternoon, meanwhile, this is fabulous, what are your thoughts on the Nova show, Everest, climbing in general?

It's a bit much to ask people to read TWO books, sorry your book is in SC, Betty, but if you all are willing and agreeable, we can take this in Dickens like installments? I can put up statements from both books and we can look at them that way?

I'm marking both as I go, we're not in a hurry here, we can take our time and climb slowly trying to understand what they're saying about ropes, and oxygen, etc.

ginny

Good. Right now we should be in base camp, getting used to THAT level of altitude. Me, I'm not going UP any further, but I'll utilize the binoculars and man the radios and cell phones and keep track of you guys.

I will say, having now watched half of the Mallory Nova production, which I am delighted to have seen, that I can see how that blue and white sort of sears your eyes and when you're no longer looking at it, the mountain, the sky, that you would long to go up there again.

I can see how that part of it would get in your blood,

I see that David Breshears is the person interviewed (that woman has an eerie voice, the narrator, gives me the chills) and of course he's mentioned in both books, so he knows his stuff too.

I am stunned to see them discussing the clothing and those archival photos of Mallory show, are those KNICKERS they were setting out with?

I wonder how on earth, using that pick a hand hold method they did and not dressed any heavier than I would be to go to the mailbox, they ever got....(and no oxygen tank, right?) they ever got anywhere near the top?

As I recall, one of Krakauers slams at Boukreev was his choice of clothing but maybe if Mallory could go up like that the Russians knew something, I looked HARD at those Sherpas in the film but don't see too many fancy duds.

Those crampons really are ferocious things, doesn't this open up an entire new world of thought here?

WHY climb it at all?

That program I taped, and it shows you the way they went up with animation on the mountain and explains base camp, etc. If you are reading this and would like to see it, I can mail it to you, it's on VHS.

I also have the Everest movie but only on DVD at the moment?

ginny

Mary Page, you and I seem to be IT? Sarah does not have her book, Lorrie and Ginger are out with illness or contributing to another discussion, what say we table this one till more can join up?

I will do whatever you like?

Fran are you joining us here?

We do need three for a quorum to continue?

It's no great disgrace to put one on hold, the Hoving has been on hold for 5 months.

ginny

I really don't want to go on HOLD, if we are permitted not to do so. What I would LOVE is to go very, very slowly. Take 6 weeks or more to read the whole thing. Comment as we trudge along.

I have become hooked. I remember being hooked back when some of Into Thin Air appeared in Newsweek. For myself personally, I am NOT into mountain climbing and, quite honestly, always thought it quite daft that some people felt they just HAD to go UP, as the famous person (Hillary?) said: "Because it is THERE!" I am also NOT into being cold, or even terribly chilly. Crisply cool is good.

But I have taken to reading these 2 books just after getting completely ready for and into bed, so I don't get far each night. I am now even DREAMING cold, snowy slopes. I watched EVEREST and the thing about finding Mallory's body. I had to fetch and don an additional sweater!

Now I have reached Ginny's goal of page 50 in CLIMB, and need to do the same with In Thin Air.

Comments thus far: The world of climbers is fascinating and a very tight one. I never knew about there being 14 8,000+meters peaks on this globe. Nor that 8 of these are in or partially in Nepal. It reminds me of so many other instances in life of keeping track of knocking off x number of somethings to reach a goal of having seen or killed or conquered or read or eaten or heard or won or competed in or what have you.

So far, I like Boukreev a lot. I like the way he thinks.

At the beginning of Chapter 5, page 48, THE CLIMB, I am horrified at "airborne particles of human waste" and "one of the first challenges is to leave Kathmandu healthy." By the way, is it still pronounced CAT MAN DO?

I would like to know more about their problem with those particular particles and WHY do they have them? Are they DOING anything to eradicate this problem? Boy, do I NOT want to go there, except vicariously with this dear group of readers.

So Ginny, let's stop for a long thermos of hot mint tea with shovelfuls of sugar and contemplate the first 50 pages in each book until the entire party of climbers catches up. Is that acceptable?

It was me that didn't have a book---BUT I DO NOW, just got it last night by UPS. Sarah has her book, right?

I'm ok with postponing, if we do, because I'm struggling to catch up in the Legends book. However, the Boukreev book looks like such a fast read that I could be ready in a day or two. What do you think? I'm all for reading BOTH books here---Into Thin Air, etc.

I just read MaryPage's message---we were posting together---and I'll get through the first 50 pages today.

Ginny, if you really wanted a bigger group, then do reschedule. I'll go either way, north face or south face.

Ah, it must have been altitude sickness that got me there, I seem to have a higher voice than normal hahahaah (did you notice that doctor on the Nova thing with the extrememly high voice in the high altitude)....NO! Park that TENT and stake out a pole, we're here to stay and I will let you all set the pace, as you both said we have a lot going on.

Betty, don't RUSH, we can wait!!!

Now that you're both here we can wait till the snow thaws.

Betty you really want to see the Nova thing, shall I mail it to you?

It's really good.

I agree, I'm dreaming cold, too, all that ice and all those bare hands and...now in that Nova thing, poor Mallory's socks were so thin?

It was Mallory who said, "Because it's there," and I thought the comments from his son were very interesting as well. That Nova thing is about as good as any I can imagine.

---

Yes, the filth, and I wondered, too, is it Catmandu?

Well, the filth on the mountains in the first place. Wouldn't you think you would try to bury it or something?

I am noticing a bit of subtle difference between the two books. I am not sure what it IS but I am noticing and it may be that ...there seems to be a bit more...judgmental stuff in the Krakauer Thin Air than in the Boukreev, or is it my imagination, for those of you with both books?

Sine the issue of Boukreeve's command of English is a major major thing with Kraukauer later on, let's all try to go up and hear the audio of Boukreev and decide for ourselves!

ONWARD! While MaryPage remains at Base Camp, Betty and I will foray out and build up our ....what IS it they build up by going ever higher each day? That poor guy on the Nova tape had his entire left side go and had headaches. If I were he, I would have gone down immediately.

The highest I have ever been while standing on earth was on Mt. Titlis in Switzerland. We had gone on a side trip from Zurich, my friend and I, and when we got to the top of the thing (which did have snow in the summer, despite her saying it would not have) she developed dizziness and it was unpleasant for her.

I need to look up how high that is, this 8,000 meters stuff is not cutting it, with me.

Altho one guy did say on the Nova tape something about 30,000 feet and that's at the altitude airplanes fly, right?

Sherpa Back on Track

Ginny, I tried the Veteran Climbers and the What Really, and the reading was extremely interesting, but I could not get the audio to work. I tried the Transcript Of and the Outside Online, and I got that page not available message.

Stupid library in this stupid little hick town doesn't have this book, nor does it even acknowledge the author in the computer. guess who is aggravated?

Nurse Ratchet? YOU, aggravated? NAH!

We need a nurse along here!

MaryPage, say not so, darn darn, I hope that's not a permanent thing, maybe I can do another search, those links were 99 percent checked and they all worked, darn!

I looked up Mt. Titlis and found that it is 10,000 feet!!!! Here is a nice html page on it, it's really super, you take all these cable cars up and up and hover over brown Swiss cows with all those bells on their necks and when you get to the Very Very top they have this great cafeteria and the BEST chicken cordon bleu I ever ate!! The Glacier Mt. Titlis, Switzerland

Now I have been to the top of 10,000 feet and felt fine. So I now need to consult the book and see where that would put me (I bet not even in base camp).

Sherpas Anonymous

Llasa, Tibet, where I stayed for a week is a little over 13,00 feet... but we had a couple of days trips to the hill villages that were 15,000. We were a little breathless the first day... but our plane landed at a small airstrip at 10,00 feet and then we were on a bus for 4 hours, 200 miles, to reach Llasa, so we became used to the thin air gradually..

Now Mt. Everest is in a much higher category... 8848 meters.... about 28940 feet.... like twice as high as Tibet

PAT you've been to TIBET, get outta here, and Lhasa, boy did you see that movie about the Dali Lahma, boy that's traveling now!

Did you find the conditions not clean as they say here?

Do you have a coverter of meters to feet, I see that 8848 meters is 29400, that's about, what? 3 and 1/3 feet to a meter?

What are some corresponding American altitudes (I'm determined to have my 10,000 feet mean something!) ahahahaha

You get to be the Lhasa Sherpa here!@

Sherpa Ginny

A meter is 39.25".. (I just looked on the meter stick) I just did a bit of quick arithmetic... You're more right than I am.

Any way you look at it, that is high. ... I can see why they needed auxillary oxygen...

Mount Whitney, California, 14,494 Feet

Mount Elbert, Colorado, 14,433 feet

Mount Rainier, Washington 14,411 feet

Borah Peak, Idaho, 12,662 feet

Sassafras Mountain, South Carolina, 3,560 Feet

Charles Mound, Illinois, 1,235 Feet

.....oh, Great Sherpa.

Yes, I'm here, but not sure if I can make this ascent. Haven't got the B book yet, and I loaned my Thin Air to a friend. Also am having work done in the kitchen......

and on and on and on. We'll see how it goes.

Come on, sign the contract and join the trek to base camp. The Adventure Corp. needs your 65k! Come to think of it, it is probably more like 75k in 2001, as opposed to 1996.

OK, here I am, at last, back in base camp, frozen half stiff and irritable because of the loo situation.

WE begin again on January 29, which is a couple of days after my son's wedding, and when I will once again be able to gird on my crampons and begin our first acclimation to the next camp.

I'm not sure actually why this short acclimation is good, looks to me like and certainly if I were going, I would have spent the last year at high altitudes, you're flirting with death here, some of these people seem to think it's like walking to the grocery.

So let's reconvene here on the 29th and set out for camp I. Does anybody else want to see the tape of this actual climb filmed by another team who was there on the same day?

It appears that this disaster is going down in history so we can say, I guess, we lived thru it.

Sherpa Ginny

I am far enough along in both books now to have gone through being fascinated with the differing accounts of what happened and then to get a bit soured on the finger pointing and blame finding in INTO THIN AIR. The bottom line is, it is so easy to LOOK BACK and blame other people and draw a picture of how they SHOULD have done things, but everyone, it appears to me, did the very best they COULD have done, given their goals, perspectives and personalities. Also of great importance is the fact that they would all have been in quite a different physical and mental state than WE are accustomed to, simply due to the extremely high altitude. Me, I would not climb that mountain. No question about it, Boukreev WAS a hero.

I actually read both Into Thin Air and The Climb over the weekend and am raring to go!

I was struck with how little criticism Boukreev and Krakauer actually leveled at each other.

Kraukauer questioned Boukreev's decision to return to Camp IV so quickly after the summit bid, but didn't really slam him that hard. Krakauer acknowledged Boukreev's heroism in rescuing some of the people in the "huddle" near Camp IV. No question - he was a hero there.

Boukreev seemed to criticize Krakauer endlessly for collapsing at the (top/bottom?) of the Hillary Step after he waited in line for all the people to climb up it as he was descending. Krakauer explained that Andy had turned up his oxygen too high and then that it had run out. Nonetheless, I thought this criticism - albeit harsh - was on a very minor point.

About the clothes - I didn't even catch the part in Into Thin Air where Krakauer questioned the adequacy of Boukreev's clothes. If it was there, Krakauer didn't make much of a deal of it.

While Krakauer (I think) criticized Boukreev for not taking closer care of Mountain Madness clients - Boukreev didn't really refute that his style differed significantly from Rob Hall's. Boukreev was also honest that he was somewhat ill at ease with people, wasn't much of a hand holder, needed to hire people on his Indonesian trip (at end of book) to be more "touchy feely" with clients. He also admitted that Fischer scolded him for neglecting the clients. I think this had a lot to do with Boukreev's style. He expects clients to be independent - so that if danger arises, they can help themselves. This approach could be dangerous - but in the case of the May 10, 1996 climb, I think both the "independent client" paradigm and the "hand holding" model that Rob Hall used broke down.

At bottom, I don't think the two authors dwell much on who was to blame - and certainly don't demonize one another.

For the most part, they blame the overcommercialization of Everest, the fact that inexperienced climbers (and too many of them) were on the mountain at the same time, and, most of all, they blame the weather, the effects of hypoxia, and the Death Zone.

It's a gripping story that has captivated me since the events actually occurred. I'd really like to discuss the books further with you!

I have not finished either book yet, but am getting there. Am constantly rereading paragraphs and going back and checking the maps and pictures and lists of who was there and with whom.

Have begun to feel I know the way up by heart, section by section. Just got a new DVD player and have ordered 3 DVDs from Amazon about climbing Everest! One by National Geographic, one narrated by Jodie Foster, and one a 1999 climb by an American team which their third attempt and first success. I mean, I am going to climb that Mountain! (while sitting on my bed sipping tea.) I've already seen the video EVEREST, so I did not order that one, but I may yet!

MaryPage - you're right: there's something SO gripping about this story that makes you want to devour everything there is to know about Everest! I did that last time I read Into Thin Air - even managed to convince myself (how, I don't know) that I COULD climb Everest! Weird.

Well, I would not go THAT far! I do feel I know the terrain though!

Actually, I know perfectly well it would kill me. As in permanently dead.

I'm packing and not reading and wished I was reading and not packing. Will move to Austin in 4 days---Thursday. Things are so crazy here. My helper/packer did not show up Saturday but my unannounced parents did---my mother refuses to call ahead. Then my (distant) brother walked in. (These people don't pack; they sit and "talk.") I don't like unannounced visitors, even family, when my house is perfectly in place---and really hated it with boxes and grunge and stuff strewn around. Arrrggghhh.

Now my son has decided to fly in to "help." I do need help, lots of it, but this sweet guy rarely knows what that is. We'll see if I can stand this much "help."

I'D RATHER BE READING!!! One (hopeful?) strategy is to put Into thin Air into my son's hands during a lull and say, "Read!"

I'll be back when the computer is hooked up, digital speed this time (not the hookup time, though).

Have finished THE CLIMB and can hardly Wait until we start discussing and taking this trek up the mountain. Does anyone know what the sanitary provisions are? I've never climbed a mountain, let alone Everest, but I am beginning to catch on that it must be a back-to-nature, every person to themselves arrangement. Glad we are only climbing in This element!

Am reading INTO THIN AIR while waiting for y'all to start up here. Betty's back! That is, she is all moved to Austin and settled in. Ready when you are!

Well done, MaryPage, and I've changed the dates in the heading to reflect our new schedule from yesterday to next Sunday the first 50 pages of the Boukreev. I'm leading another discussion so must, even tho I have read the Kraukauer twice, I do see you all have it as well and I'm going to rely on you for your "heads up" when you see something you think conflicts or to bring our attention to the Kraukauer.

I did notice, however a bit of blaming and value judgments going on in the Kraukauer and wondered about them, there was none of that so far that I can see in the Boukreev. Don't you get the opinion that Boukreev was the professional here and knew what he was doing even IF Kraukauer later blames him, how incredible that is to me.

Let's look at the first 50 pages, MaryPage raises an issue I immediately thought of, what...they just what? You have to remember they leave bodies in the snow where they fall, why is THAT? So you know they aren't going to be very fastidious, what, do they just walk out of sight or?? Or dig a hole or??

That's a little more back to nature than I would like to be, I, too, am glad we're here experiencing it vicariously.

---

Don't you love the maps and drawings in the front of this book? You can see the planning. The PBS show showed previous ropes left in place on the mountain, would you trust one of those old ropes? Then why do they leave them there?

On the first page Boukreev sets the tone, saying "Hyakutake's stellar trespass was considered an ominous sign by the Sherpas in whose villages the cosmic smear was a matter of concern and conversation."

Here again we have superstition versus a money machine such as the teams which are poised to ascend the top.

Which team would you have felt most comfortable on?

Do you think Mountain Madness was good enough?

There seems to be some dispute about what is the most important factor in choosing a team. Is it the experience of the other climbers or the expert guides?

Four HUNDRED people including a movie crew assembled. It boggles the mind. Why all at once? Is it a weather thing, do you think? Why all at once, that would spoil it for me and it would make me feel safer than apparently I should , too.

It looks to me like Todd and Hall had the best records in climbing of all the teams assembling, just from the stats, one had never lost a client and Hall had taken 39 climbers to the top....I'm assuming back as well. And had turned a bunch of them back, too, for safety, on another trip (wonder if they get a refund when that happens???) I think I would have rather been with his team.

The Mountain Madness brochures on page 9 in the hard back seem to say the Sherpas will do most of the work and lead the approach on the summit??

Looks like they also fought over Krakauer, I wonder if they were all alive and had it to do over if they would, now?

Now I thought the oxygen situation was frightening and seemed to depend upon money and obscure Russian bureaucracy. It would seem to me that people who were not able to climb without oxygen were having their lives threatened by this occurrence, as well?

And then the tent was still in Russia, as well.

---

What do you think about any or all of this as we sit here at Base Camp warming ourselves by MY portable fire? hahahahaha

Sherpa Ginny

In hindsight, of course, I would choose the Mountain Madness team, because they got ALL of their clients back alive. I would feel extremely safe with Boukreev.

So, YES! The Mountain Madness team WAS good enough!

The most important factor in any team effort is the expert assistance available.

In INTO THIN AIR, at the very beginning of the book, Krakauer explains that the government of Nepal attempted one climbing season to restrict the number of expeditions on the mountain to FOUR ( 4 ) in a given climbing season. This put a lot of their own countrymen, the Sherpas, out of work! There was a big hue and cry, so they dropped that regulation. The whole sad situation is just another of the too, too many instances of MAMMON (money and greed) ruining our environment.

There is NO REFUND if a client does not make it to the Summit, no matter the reason.

The Russian tent did make it. See footnote page 71, which, I know, we aren't at yet!

About the 2 books: I trust THE CLIMB more than INTO THIN AIR. I suppose this is because I trust what people DO more than what they SAY, and because it is less polished and commercial a book. Also, I have added up the people involved and their opinions, and the vast majority seem to feel Boukreev was entirely correct in his telling and in his doing.

INTO THIN AIR contains better writing, but one would expect this from the more successful writer. DeWalt had the disadvantages in THE CLIMB of having to receive Boukreev's story through interpreters and attempt to fashion it into fluid English and of not being a climber himself. Krakauer, on the other hand, is an established climbing writer AND an established climber. Both spoke to a lot of people, but DeWalt seems to have taken more pains to research and talk with all the participants and background persons.

Krakauer has what I consider to be disadvantages in some ways: he was THERE, but was limited to his own spot on the mountain at any one moment. His report was written in a hurry right after the disaster, before he had time to do careful checking of facts. He as much as admits this himself. He knew the people who died, most of whom were clients from his own group, and had to have been emotionally torn up. This is always a time to make snap judgments, especially as the survivors were likewise in highly emotional states and were full of erroneous information and differing perspectives. Finally, they were all suffering from oxygen depletion in those altitudes, which severely affects logical thinking.

MaryPage, those are very astute comments, and I really appreciate your perspective. Does Krakauer now recant or repent? Has anybody seen any interviews with him much later on? I know when Boukreev first wrote his book Krakauer responded and it's in an interview in the heading, I'm wondering NOW if he has any second thoughts.

I believe I am going to disagree tho about what is the most important thing, I'm not sure unless you have one expert PER climber that experts like Boukreev (tho he seemed to save half of them himself) could help much?

What if you and I were on a rope just like Mallory and his young friend and I fell? If you couldn't hold me up you would go too, just like Mallory. Having an experienced expert there wouldn't save us. I would think the climb would only be as strong as its weakest climber.

I would have gone with the team who turned back not the more charismatic people, unless Boukreev were hitched up to me, and you were right, it WAS Beck Weathers and he is going back up, I saw something about it on the news.

Krakauer did not seem to care for him, as I recall.

Also it was Rob Hall's team which began bringing down trash from the summit which I think is a worthy goal, but weren't they the ones who had somebody paint the mountain to carve out their own places for base camps? I wonder how you clean something like that up when there's no water.

Thanks also for reminding me about the permits, you are right, the dollar dogs plus the government need to take equal blame.

I also agree with you about the tone of the two books, Boukreev's is spare no wart type of thing but he leaves off characterizing the people and K seems bent on same.

I thought it was interesting how Boukreev, right before the climb, kept running up and down the mountains at different altitudes, all that would have worn me out before I started, and then on page 48 how he would work with the Sherpas, rising at 8am and working all day, and the strange diet which he had not only acustomed himself to, but preferred. He said, "Our work was strenuous at that altitude, but for me the work is part of my adjustment to altitude. Pushing the body, keeping it exercised and active at those elevations, is, I think, important and contributes to acclimatization. I enjoyed the measured, regular schedule and the rhythms of the work, and every evening the physical fatiigue was so great that sleep came easily.

I wonder if that one thing is what makes the difference in the Sherpas and the paying customers, that acclimatiztion?

Also, what does K say about Gammelgard, apparently Boukreev did not remember her and Fisher was surprised? She doesn't appear that remarkable to me?

ginny

Well, INTO THIN AIR answers my questions about sanitary facilities, rather too graphically. Now I know more than I really wanted to know. Also, I think it interesting that Boukreev, the Russian, takes rough living in stride, while it bothers Krakauer, the American, a lot more. For instance, in describing Base Camp, Boukreev is describing how deluxe the accommodations are and stressing they even have hot showers. I just could not figure that, but I trusted him. Then along comes Krakauer and says they consisted of a bucket of hot water and a piece of hose! Now, I would have had to have been kidding someone if I described that as "hot showers." But I really don't think Boukreev WAS kidding! He was definitely more of the outdoorsman than I could ever relate to.

I'm glad you're able to compare the two books, too, MaryPage, as you've caught things I did not and I am really beginning to wonder about my reading ability, of course Boukreev came from hard circumstances, do I remember that? He lived a tough life before he came to the mountains so he was apparently grateful for small things. I would guess water would be a luxury in this place. Where are you reading in the K about the facilities? I seem to vaguely remember piles of stuff lying around?

Wasn't Boukreev worried he might get sick in the city and careful what he ate or was that K?

ginny

See Page 66 of INTO THIN AIR, but not just prior to or just after eating.

I tend to read more slowly than most people, but eat up and retain most of what I have read for a very long time. I guess I am still reading for exams!

I gave away my copy of Into Thin Air last week, but had read it some time ago (I think I did).

I just started The Climb and right away it reminded me of a first impression I had of something while reading Into Thin Air (or all the articles). That's this thing of bragging about summitting all those mountains without oxygen. (And when did summit become a verb, anyway?)

It's all such a mix of skill--which implies safety---and of some kind of macho daring---which implies lack of safety. Contradictions.

I do like the choppy but authentic writing of Boukreev and DeWalt.

Hi, Betty!

You really do read closely, MaryPage and that's why I always like "reading" with you, I get more out of it since I fly thru everything like a wind storm. hahaahah

---

Betty , THERE you are, struggling up in the snow, Welcome! On the summit thing (hahahah on the verb, I didn't even blink at that one but you're so right and I bet there is a host of other arcane....verbisms coined for this particular "sport.")

Well IS it or ISN'T it all about macho? I mean look at the old explorers? Why on earth would anybody WANT to climb it if not to show their prowess, what makes these people climb?

The old "because it's there" is not much use, look who said it, (Mallory) and look how he ended up.

I did get sort of a....well, those who climb with NO O's as they call them are more....more.....than those who need the crutch of O's. Yet it seems physiologically that it's the luck of the draw who gets this altitude sickness and who doesn't rather than some strength or is Boukreev saying that if you just acclimatize (is that a WORD?) yourself, anybody can do it, is there some sort of implied thing that they were NOT strong enough or prepared enough in the first place? Big difference in how they prepared, the Sherpas and Boukreev, and the others?

Thank you for that page 66, MaryPage, I had it marked actually I see, yep, piles, yep, walking, it's a wonder any of them lived to even try to climb, I bet that's a sight in many ways.

Nope! hahaha not for me.

Page 17:

Fifty thousand for five climbers; ten thousand for each additional climber. Unbelievable."

But they are charging EACH PERSON, what....$65,000 to make the climb? I'm not seeing all that money going to the Sherpas, there ought to be plenty left over.

Would you say mountain climbers, especially those with these high altitude mountain peaks under their belts, are different or special people? Or what sort of person WANTS to do this in the first place?

ginny

Boukreev seems to think the most of this Ed Viesturs, "who has summitted nine of the world's fourteen 8,000ers without the use of oxygen, is in my estimation America's finest high-altitude climber."

Ok whose team is HE on? Boukreev had just come from another huge mountain, the 8,463 Makalu. (This is on page 14), and he mentions that Scott Fischer had summitted Everest after three attempts and without oxygen and immediately gone to Lhotse 8,511 and done it too. So he might have felt he would be OK this time.

I notice that Boukreev says, however, that Scott had "great potential" as a high altitude climber and many good things to say but seems to reserve his admiration in the same paragraph for this Viesturs. I want to watch out for Viesturs and see what happens to him.

ginny

Ed Viesturs and his bride (who stayed at Base Camp) were with the IMAX/IWERKS group for the purpose of filming getting to the summit of Everest. See the very front of the book INTO THIN AIR, page xxi and page xxii.

These people had NO IDEA the tragedy that was waiting, but THEY WERE THERE! They had elected NOT to climb on the infamous May 10th, and went up 2 days later instead. After having rented and viewed the video, I bought it at TOWER RECORDS here. $19.95. EVEREST, A MacGillivray Freeman Film. They had an incredibly strong team of well known climbers for their project. Liam Neeson narrates the film to music. I have viewed it twice now, and will continue to do so. Really, really puts you in the picture here.

I just got it back from Lorrie and that's what I'm going to do right now, view it!

Will return with more comments later on.

ginny

Well, Lorrie! So where are YOU? If you have read and viewed, get in here and POST! We desire your 2 cents worth, and more if you've got it!

I did finish the video and I must say I was disappointed in it? It's more of a honeymoon story than a recording of the tragedy. You would almost not know except for the tears for Rob Hall, what actually happened.

It was excellent in showing the actual mountain and the motivations for climbing and it's obvious without being said that Viesturs decided to err on the side of caution for his attempt and thus made it down alive.

Likewise it made the point about how difficult it all is, the ladders surprised me, I thought they were going over any minute, but you can actually see where previous ladders had melted into the ice in some places.

So. Once they did it, what then?

I can see where standing on the top of the world was fascinating and the stuff about India continuing to push into the neighboring continent and Everest gaining 1/4" a year was SOOO exciting.

Yet since there was no mention of the others save Rob Hall, I found it strange, how did the rest of you think it?

At least we know what happened to Viesturs and that was interesting on Beck Weathers, and made good points on the lack of O's and how people THINK they are thinking clearly when they are not.

Did you wonder as I did, who took those photos on the top? As the woman was struggling upward one slow and carefull foot at a time, did you wonder who was taking that picture? I did. Whoever it was had to have climbed it, too.

How about the Spanish woman going bare handed a lot? Did you notice that one? Why did her fingers not get frost bitten?

And last but not least, Viesturs himself, who trains every day without cease, did not use O's to get to the top.

ginny

Ginny, the purpose, and the only purpose, of the IMAX film crew was to film getting to the summit of Everest. See page 359 of INTO THIN AIR. This group had, as I stated before, some of the best climbers IN THE WORLD in it. The backers had $5.5 MILLION DOLLARS invested in making this film about climbing Mount Everest. It WAS NOT TO BE ABOUT OTHER GROUPS or a tragedy they did not know in advance would occur. They did, as you know, include some aspects of the tragedy, but THAT WAS NOT WHAT THE FILM WAS ABOUT.

I believe it was David Breashers who did the filming. Krakauer says "With Breashears, Ed Viesturs, and Robert Schauer, they were without question the strongest, most competent team on the mountain." I believe the credits in the movie tell who was filming. I loved the movie, but I think it was because I understood it was not about the books written or about the people in the books or the tragedy. Knowing that in advance, I just loved seeing what the climbers saw.

I am thoroughly ashamed. After going to all the trouble to order the book, and then wait for it to arrive, and then to review parts of the other one, "Into Thin Air," when "The Climb" finally did arrive, I was able to read only about a third of it, and my neighbor borrowed my copy "for just a day or two," then proceeded to go to Florida for three months. Alas, I cannot comment with any lucidity without being able to refer to the book, so please forgive me, comrades-in-the-printed-word!

From the little I do remember, I felt that Boukreev was the more authentic of the two writers. To me he seemed less impassioned, more matter-of-fact, and completely believable in what he says. As far as I'm concerned the real heroes of this tragic misadventure were the Imax team!

Lorrie

They certainly did a great deal, gave up a lot of their time and oxygen, etc.

I am really enjoying Krakauer's book. I feel THE CLIMB explains climbing itself and organizing a group better. Also, I agree with Lorrie, it seemed completely authentic. On the other hand, INTO THIN AIR is a faster, more enjoyable read. Krakauer is so fluent in the language and such a good writer. His descriptions are wonderful. He has an exquisite eye for detail. And I appreciate his willingness to express his deep emotions regarding this tragedy and to state that he did make mistakes and errors in his reporting. He even showed the great grace to include a very unflattering letter from Scott Fischer's sister, a letter I agree with because it expresses MY assessment of what he did wrong in his reporting. No, Krakauer is okay, except that he got overemotional and jumped to conclusions that were not founded in fact. I hate it that he blames himself for the death of Andy Harris. It is a miracle that Krakauer lived to push himself into his tent and sleeping bag. He could not POSSIBLY have gone out and saved Harris. Not possibly. Impossible. Could not have done it. Period.

Oh, My Dears! Do click on here and read this! It is DELICIOUS! Hey, this just gets better and better!

SANDY HILL PITTMAN

I was reading page 373 of INTO THIN AIR last night just prior to turning out the light and slipping down under my comfort. Read that there was a nasty article about Sandy Hill Pittman in the August 1996 Vanity Fair. Thought to myself: "I have a pile of old Vanity Fair magazines from back when I still subscribed to it; issues I have not had time to read, but will some day. Wonder if I've got that one." Then I went to sleep and forgot until just a while ago. Went looking. I HAVE IT! I HAVE IT! I HAVE IT!

Wonderful article full of ALL KINDS of stuff NOT in either book! Gossipy stuff! Plus heaps of great color photos of all the team on the mountain. Try to get it at your library. If you can't, I will be happy to send it around, as long as I get it BACK! We can have a whip around: say, me to Ginny to Betty to Lorrie to me, or whatever you want to work out.

He! He!

Wow. Wow, Mary Page, (we were posting together on that Vanity Fair, this is on the Salon article): and that Salon article was written in 1997, don't you want an update? LOOK at those names:

Bob Pittman was photographed in the New York Times this spring with his new girlfriend -- Veronique Choa, the estranged wife of climber and film-maker David Breashears ...

She never mentioned that she was short-roped up the mountain by the Sherpa Lopsang, just as she never mentioned that she was carried out of the blizzard by the guide Anatoli Boukreev. By the time others mentioned it to the swarm of reporters circling the story, Pittman's reporting looked suspect.

Her lawyer sent threatening letters to some of the more vocal survivors, including Jon Krakauer.

wow. Wouldn't you like to know what happened next and where they are now?

---

Lorrie, quite understandable after all you've been thru, we appreciate seeing you here anyway!

---

I dunno, I still think they might have said a bit more about the other 7 that died no matter what their motivation was for making the movie, but I'll stifle! hahahahaa

Snort!

How many pages do you want to take next week? I may have a bit of free time tomorrow to get ahead?

Sherpa what is "short roped?"

Yes, do send it to me, do you have the one with Mallory (James Dean on the cover?) I promise I will not dog ear it, would love to see it!

Will send you my address and will not get ketchup on it!

Inquiring Mind Wants to Know

I really, really think you are too young to be reading this stuff, Ginny.

But I'll mail it to you on Monday, and e-mail you when it is on its way. Everybody else, let Ginny know if you want it from her.

Oh, yes, Ginny! I DO want to know. But not too much. What we have here in hand is quite enough for this old lady! I shock easily.

please note there are heaps of other sites you can get to from that site

Whoa, another great site to go look at later today, thank you SOO much MaryPage, and you're right, the Mallory article might bring a tear, it's pretty strong. I can't WAIT to read this, even tho young, I will haunt the mailbox eagerly.

I don't think Krakauer could have done one thing, and I don't think he should worry or berate himself, either, he's lucky to be alive, but to blame the person who DID save several others is not cricket either, don't you think?

I expect he's toned that down since the untimely death of Boukreev, but I do want to find out what really went on, as well. I've got my own suspicions, can't wait to read it.

ginny

I get this sense that no one is in here except thee and me, Ginny. Oh well, I'm having a ball. Here is another excellent site:

EVEREST 96 BOOK LIST

And I went to Barnes & Noble this afternoon and purchased:

CLIMBING HIGH by Lene Gammelgaard

HIGH EXPOSURE by David Breashears

EVEREST by Broughton Coburn (a National Geographic book)

They did not have SHEER WILL by Michael Groom, so I came home and found it was published in Australia by Random House International and can be bought on line. Think I will wait a while and try again here. B&N could not order it for me!

I'm lurking. I read In Thin Air. Haven't read, and probably won't read the other for a while since I've got about three books going now. For that reason I don't feel I should participate.

However, I was absolutely fascinated by Krakauer's book, and have been following the discussions on the various websites as well as this one. Was fascinated with the Salon article that you mentioned, MaryPage.

What I found most fascinating overall with Krakauer's book was that he made me very, very interested by something in which I have had, up to this time, absolutely no interest at all! In fact, I only picked up the book because I was desperate for something to read and it happened to be handy at our apartment complex library. (This was in December.)

So I am with you guys in spirit and watching, watching!

Gail, hang in here, because I think, and Ginny, correct me if I am wrong, we are not only discussing THE CLIMB here, but the entire story of May 10, 1996 and the weeks before and after and each and every one of the individuals on Everest at That Time. We are truly interested in The Whole Story, and not just one person's telling of it.

Like you, I have never had so much as a scintilla of interest in mountain climbing, and, like you, it was originally the excerpts of Krakauer's book that appeared in Newsweek which first got me interested in THIS story. Still, if SeniorNet and Ginny had not taken up this particular book to read, I would not have done so. Now it is my current passion and I am grabbing everything in sight or site that will tell me anything more about it.

I do love mountains though. To look at and to live in. My idea of Heaven knows two sites: The Blue Ridge and Massanutten Mountains from the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia and the Adirondacks in the area of Lake Placid, AuSable Forks, and Jay in Upper State New York.

Ginny, I stand corrected about the purpose of the IMAX team. EVEREST, Mountain Without Mercy, by Broughton Coburn, published by National Geographic, tells the whole tale. They went up there PRIMARILY to complete a Scientific Mission: namely, "to install the world's highest Global Positioning System and weather station on the South Col of Mount Everest." That was what they really, really had to make every attempt to do. Then, if the weather permitted, their climbing team, the 3 shown in the film, would attempt to summit the mountain along with the filming team and "bring back the first IMAX camera footage from the top of the world." David Breashears WAS the cameraman and both the climbing team and the filming team got up there and succeeded.

The big tragedy occurred while the IMAX team was still in Camp II, and they watched a lot of it through their telescopes. They could have chosen to film from the moment things went wrong and afterwards, and they were well aware such footage would be worth a whole lot of money commercially, since the whole world was so interested, but they chose the moral high ground and put all of their efforts into the rescue and left their cameras behind.

No wonder the mountain smiled upon their efforts over a week later and crowned their projects with success.

My computer died last night!! Well, the monitor, anyway, which was confirmed today by a Mobile computer fix-it team of two. I sent them off to pick up a new one from Office Max and am now back in business.

Wow. This is something---each time something goes wrong with this computer, I find out just how impossible it is to do without it. I'm not sure that's good. I'm sure it's not good. But, for now, who cares, I'm back online.

I finished The Climb, couldn't put it down, in fact. Everything that could have gone wrong was going wrong---how could those deaths NOT have happened. They didn't have enough oxygen!! The unexpected storm was a blizzard!! Scott was not following Boukreev's advice on scheduling.

Jon Krakauer's assertions about Boukreev's behavior seem slanderous to me. Scott, the leader, was ultimately responsible for the safety of everyone. Boukreev's actions AFTER so many screwups can't be the one focus of everyone making it or not making it.

I'm interested in hearing from others what you think of Boukreev's and DeWalt's many subtle criticisms of Scott's management---or lack of it.

Great links, MaryPage. Krakauer sounds awfully defensive.

Betty, the more I have read of what Krakauer says, the more I like and admire him, BUT, I do find him to be one of those critical people. It begins with him long before the terrible deaths. Boukreev has said of himself that he was a difficult man. Everyone, after the fact and after Scott Fischer being dead and unable to set the record straight, had a different attitude about one another and about what actually occurred. I felt, after reading JUST those 2 books, that Boukreev was definitely a hero throughout. Krakauer admits he was a hero, but says he should have been with the clients all along.

Now I am reading CLIMBING HIGH by Lene Gammelgaard. She most definitely favors Boukreev's version of things. Also, from her book (and it is obvious that she and Fischer were extremely close friends) I find things finally click for me and I realize Scott Fischer himself let his clients down big time. He was obviously already quite ill himself and unable to make good decisions, so I place no BLAME on Fischer; but Fischer was still down the mountain when all of his clients came down from the summit. Instead of deciding to go ahead and summit himself, a feat he had already accomplished several times previously, he should have turned around and guided his now worn out clients on down to Camp IV. That was the final thing that set them all up for the terrible night. I repeat: Fischer should have never continued on up that mountain by himself, but should have accompanied his clients down it. How in the World can Krakauer turn the blame onto Boukreev??

Gammelgaard describes Boukreev as "straight and uncorrupted." She refers to him as the "Russian superclimber." She tells a lot of other stuff about the relationships between the team members and describes the sanitary arrangements in great detail. Finally, she is quite a philosopher. She has an exquisitely beautiful way of looking at life and living it and her book left me feeling complete and satisfied. It reminds me of things of fragile beauty in this world, such as watercolors, charcoal drawings, perfect poems, harp music, and heads of newborn babies.

And Ginny, the August 1996 issue of Vanity Fair is on its way to South Carolina and chez Ginnie.

The sticker of the 7 gorgeous young women on the front of the mailing envelope is of my 7 brilliant and beautiful granddaughters. Hear! Hear!

Stapled my card to the front of the magazine. I now have 5 books, 1 video, and 3 DVDs about this one climb of Everest, so would like to keep the magazine as a go-with item. Will probably pass the whole pile on to a granddaughter who does a little climbing. Just a very little, but enough to make her interested in this.

Do send it on to whoever wants it. Betty? Lorrie? As soon as the LAST person gets it read, please return to sender! love to all, MP

Sandy Hill Pittman - feh! (As my father would say) What a lack of appreciation.

I picked up a minor referecne to her in The Climb - when he said that an unnamed "socialite" refused to acknowledge that Boukreev saved her life that fateful night. I got the distinct impression she had threatened to sue him if he mentioned her in a bad light.

Gail T: delighted to see you here, PLEASE do stick around, I have forgotten our discussion of the Krakauer book but I do know it spurred me onto the Boukreev, please do stay and give the point counterpoint, any of you who may be reading this, as I find I can no longer keep up reading the two, I keep getting them confused.

MaryPage! WOW! When you dive in, you dive in, we want to hear all about the Gammelgaard book, too, I can't recall, I really can't when the participants in a discusion brought MORE books to bear on the topics at hand. This is wonderful, and I await my mail with glee, can I scan in the gorgeous granddaughters for everybody to see?

Speak further about the sanitary stuff, if you will?

Betty, we sure are glad to have you back, we're looking at first at the first 50 pages, but I'm with you, let's keep on the lookout for signs of stuff. Frankly, I would not have gone up with Mountain Madness, but then, frankly, I would not have gone up at all, and I doubt these folks are really over interested in the safety concern, they seem risk takers, to me.

Lorrie, how great to see you here, I think you have remembered it well, actually, it's a fascinating subject, and one which I guess people will debate for years to come.

I was shocked to hear of Boukreev's death, had just bought his book and seen all the comment between him and Krakauer, I wonder if K's friends in the climbing world...wonder what they think of him? Maybe MaryPage's books will tell us.

Today is the 5th, can we begin looking at pages 51-100 tomorrow and yes, hoist up those tent poles, we're moving OUTTTTT!~!!!!

Sherpa Who Carries Nothing Ginny

I think you are right, Sarah. Everyone tiptoes around that subject except the Vanity Fair article and some other magazine stories, both on and off line. The books do skirt the matter.

One quote was that when Sandy Hill Pittman was phoned and asked "about the two gentlemen who reportedly had saved her life on the mountain" she snapped back: "And what two gentlemen would that be?"

Like, Wow!

THERE's our Sarah, posting with me as is befitting twins, one of whom has lost 50 pounds and the other of whom found them!

YES!!

Sarah, never thought of that, I bet she DID, too, is this not fascinating?

ginny

Okay. Starting on page 80 of her book, Gammelgaard says that at Base Camp they had a toilet with 3 stone walls on the 3 sides where people might pass by. The 4th half-wall faced a lovely mountain peak, Pumori, and nearby glacier lakes. The sky was the roof and there was a tarpaulin door. Floor of stone with a deep, deep hole in the middle. Had to be used standing up. You could see when anyone was in there.

Later in the book she says she bought a 2 piece climbing suit, and would buy the 1 piece in future, because the 2 piece did not have sufficient flaps and she had to bring the bottom section down to her ankles and get overexposed.

And there is more, but this is SeniorNet. Hope this does not offend anyone.

I MUST read that Vanity Fair article too. I'm so amazed, MaryPage,that you found it!

I too read both books and I didn't find either author's criticism of the other to be that strong! I came away liking both of them - and only really disliking Pittman.

Signed, Ginny's Twin

No, no, don't send it to me. The last thing I received I destroyed, or my VCR did, and my to-the-mail schedule isn't even settled for moi. I can't be trusted.

I definitely want to read the Lene Gammelgaard book. What's the name of it? Oh, it's in one of your former posts. I'll flip back in a moment and find it. I wanted to know her better. There wasn't enough about her in either book and what you wrote of her, MaryPage, settles it---I have to read her book. Which video is the best of the ones you have? I'm tempted to order that, too.

This whole story has made me think of the cognitive dissonance theory. That's when two ideas (or facts or concepts or beliefs) are at odds with each other. Uh, let's see. Example, I want to be forthright and truthful and tell/write what I really think of a book. AND, I also want to avoid telling so much truth that someone's ideas sound criticized. Ok, here's a better one. I want to see my mother more often. Seeing her more often means putting myself in an acutely stressful situation.

The cognitive dissonance(s) in climbing Everest are just amazing to me. The summit is a place that doesn't support human life. The body is beginning to deteriorate on its way to the summit. Going there is putting one's life at risk. THEN, there are all these rules and guides about how to do this deathly thing SAFELY---which, in a way, is completely contradictory. Being safe would mean not climbing to the summit. I suspect that those who are "successful" in their bid for the top have done X number of things that are dangerous---just to get there, for example, walking across an icy ladder that spans a canyon of ice---the ladder put there by...whom? someone who put it there before you got there. Same thing with the ropes. The climbers are risking their lives each time they trust a rope that someone else has made a decision to replace or not to replace. Eeeeeeuuuooo. Gives me the willies.

Weather reports. Am I reading this right? At the end of Boukreev's and DeWalt's book, Boukreev writes about BEGINNING to insist on weather reports. Are you telling me that all these former climbing groups just looked up and out to the sky to assess the weather and didn't have some kind of official weather predictions forwarded to them every 30 minutes on a radio? Has this "sport" been that crude up until this accident? This is difficult to believe.

I don't even dislike Pittman. I just do not understand her reaction. It sounds as though she was in some type of deep denial. Maybe her ego demanded she be able to state she got up that mountain and down again all on her own. Maybe she just cannot admit she was close to death and was rescued. I can't figure out why, though. Charlotte Fox was a much more experienced climber and she had a PROFESSIONAL reputation to preserve, yet she admits to the near-death situation and that Boukreev saved her. So does Tim Madsen. I just can't figure it!

Have finally found Michael Groom's book by going to Amazon.com and then clicking on International and then going to Amazon.com.uk from there. Have ordered it, and should have it in 6 weeks or so. The review says he goes into a great deal of detail about climbing that mountain, including how he lost his feet.

I always do this. When I read up on a subject, I get everything I can about it, trying to get a 360 degree look at it, as it were. Life is such that you just cannot do with only one person's perspective. At least for me, it is not enough.

Oops, Ginny, I guess 5 or 6 of us were posting at once. I was pulling something from the end of the DeWalt book as you were reminding me that we're in the first 50 pages. The first 50 pages? I thought (grin) we were talking in whole books---since there are whole books, plural, being referenced. Guidance, please.

Betty, maybe Ginny can scan those pages from Vanity Fair for you? Ginny, I would love it if you could scan the granddaughters, but I doubt you can as the sticker is VERY small. You will need a magnifying glass just to see them a little bit!

Betty, the Lene Gammelgaard book is called CLIMBING HIGH and Barnes & Noble has it. In fact, Barnes & Noble has a section called MOUNTAINEERING, and that is where I have found a lot of good stuff.

Gammelgaard's book is written directly from her journals. Apparently she has been keeping daily journals for over 20 years. She writes just wisps and pieces from day to day, impressions really. And there are parts from letters and documents and schedules. Maps and photos. All of the photos, from what I can recall, belong to her. There is a wonderful photo of her with Boukreev. Oh, and a great photo of Boukreev's tent. All of the others had the same types of yellow, mountain-gear issue tents. Boukreev's was a real tent and the material design was BLUE & WHITE FLOWERS! Go figure! Gammelgaard loved it, and says everyone did.

There is something just a bit disturbing about virtually everyone who was on Everest on May 10, 1996 profiting from the tragedy. I didn't realize so many of the participants had book deals. Did any Sherpa actually make some (much needed) money here???

Yes, they did. I am waiting to purchase the book by Jamling Norgay, son of Tenzing Norgay who was the very first to ever summit, along with Sir Edmund Hillary. Jamling Norgay was with the IMAX team and assisted in the rescues. I cannot remember the name of his book, which is due out in April, but it has something to do with "The Soul of My Father", I think.

Oh, another tidbit I adored and forgot to tell you. Gammelgaard says the Sherpas are all given the name of the day they are born on, and that therefore there are only 7 first names! That is why so many have exactly the SAME name!

MaryPage, that's fascinating, what day would we be? I would be Tuesday which, despite my not being full of grace, is still a nice name.

hahahaha

Betty, in the heading next to the little mountaineer with the tent is the schedule, and since today is the 5th, we will move on tomorrow to the next 50 pages, but please feel free to say anything at all, I've read both books, but will need prompting as to pages if it's out of our range, that's just suggestion for debate and we have a great one going anyway.

Certainly I can copy by Xerox or scan whichever, the Vanity Fair Article AND the tiny granddaughters! hahahahaha I think if it's several pages, photos AND text Xerox might be better.

ginny

Betty, all 4 films are different. Each gives some facts about the climb that others do not. Each contains different people and photos. For most posters, I would not want to advise as to which would suit them best, but for you I have no such hesitation. Because you are a doctor, I am certain you would prefer EVEREST, The Death Zone, by David Breashears. It is a film made for and owned by NOVA, for WGBH Boston Video. You can get it in DVD, which is superb. It is narrated by Jodie Foster. This is the film that approaches the mountain scientifically. David Breashears announces in this film that he will never go up again. Ed Viesturs is found to have atrophy of the brain (MRI taken before and after going up). They take all sorts of tests on the way up and back. One of them nearly dies at Camp III overnight during the descent. They climbed in 1997 and put this video out in 1999.

MaryPage, that one does sound terrific. What I need to know, too, is if this one (or another?) lets me really experience the mountain(s). Seeing mountains (even pictures), but especially being in the mountains always has for me an immediate calming effect, reduces whatever is too much. I breathe differently, I talk slower, I can't get enough looking up there at them. If one of these films is particularly beautiful, let me know, please.

-------------------------------------------------

Ginny, oh, the heading....schedules and all that. I knew that. Sniff. >^..^<

Have you got a cold, Betty? hahahaah Just reading this makes me sniff. In fact, when I watched the movie I got so cold I had to turn up the heat.

That IMAX movie in the heading, would be an interesting one for understanding the Everest experience, certainly that ICEFALL thing will be seared in your memory, as well as the ladders and the crampons crossing same. I will be glad to mail it to you if you like?

---

I've changed the little figures in the heading to keep Scott Fischer's optimistic attitude while we begin our ascent. Our new schedule will take us to page 97 and, having just read it over, I am struck by all the warning bells Boukreev keeps sounding. This climber really won't make it, that climber is not acclimatized and the very electric " Here, I understood, as had been the situation on other commercial expeditions, I had been hired to prepare the mountain for the people instead of the other way around." (Page 57).

---

I don't know where to start first, but that statement, coming as it does before the one in the heading, seems to indicate a bit of ambivalence on Boukreeve's part, what do you think?

He's very careful about how he describes Fischer, too, very very careful. It's obvious Fischer was much loved and certainly he has qualities any person could admire.

It's also obvious he was not well, and taking medicines preventively that were not meant that way.

Did you notice that in a footnote Boukreev's favored route for getting the climbers ready, spurned by Fischer, was taken by Rob Hall? (Page 54).

I think if we were here to make a list of the things that bothered Boukreev we might see a pattern coming forward despite himself? The old phones? As Betty said, were conditions that primitive (and how could they be with all that satellite equipment)?

MaryPage, what fascinating things you continue to bring here, Ed Viesturs atrophy of the brain, that explains some stuff too. What causes that, the high altitudes?

Let's make a list of Boukreev's caveats, and see what they add up to?

1. Antiquated phones (it's all we have) for Mountain Madness.

ginny

MaryPage, I'm looking for you. We have some ebola virus questions in Dem of Amer folder. Hurry.

Have all of you slid down the mountain? hahaha, hope not. Yesterday in B&N the clerk was recommending that Left for Dead by Beck Weathers, am not sure I want to read that one. Have seen too many interviews with him about his own determination and that may well have been what it was, but I do think he had some help.

As well I did see the Breshears book and I did look into it for mention of Boukreev in the index but don't remember seeing a whole lot about him there, either.

Am very interested in the Gamellgaard book and hearing more about it, that bit on Boukreev's tent with the flowers was magic and of course as we can see in the heading, the other teams did laugh at Boukreev's sneakers (Snickers) and I thought he was a bit...chilling in his very accurate prediction of "There will be no more jokes" when they got to ...was it the top or just the mountain itself.

Kinda reminded me of a field hand we once had, James, who told me conversationally one day that if he saw X and Y killing each other he would do nothing to interfere. That was quite a shock coming from such a mild mannered man quiet man and of course I had to say O James you don't mean that and he said, yes I do. And of course still water runs deep I guess, he's now in prison for an ax murder, killed one of our other field hands, actually.

So Boukreev's words sent a chill thru me and I read this one before he died.

ginny

Ginny O'Henry,

Good grief, what a surprise ending to that paragraph. Ax murder, indeed!! wow

Surprised me, too! And there's a coda? I am very nearsighted, almost blind, and so before the trial began, early one morning, about 6 am, there came a knock on the back door and so I was more concerned staggering out with bathrobe as to being covered properly, and did not put on contacs, which is all I had then?

And so I opened the door and there stood a whole porch full of VERY tall men: I could see the shapes, but nothing else, they could have been martians, but something in the way one stood caused me to peer out and say, "James, is that you?" And it was, and he would like to have his job back till the trial which of course I said yes, and so they went away happy, as he would begin back the next day (he didn't come every day then)...and later that morning I happened to walk out on the porch, "eyes" in, and , and there, to the left of the door, was a major ax, a huge maul type thing, which, had he BEEN so inclined, he could have sliced me in two with it. It's ironic that that particular implement had been left there the day before.

But that wasn't his nature, and nobody can convince me it was. It was a crime of passion, and as he said, he didn't kill him, he just hit him in the head with the ax a couple of times.

Where is our MaryPage? Hope she is ok, glad to see you here, anyway, ax or no ax!

ginny

I am here with my mouth open down to my toes!

Ginny, You continue to amaze me...

I traveled with Ginny for 3 weeks and listened to many of her stories... but this one beats all.. Maybe she didn't want me to know she associated with ax muderers or she was afraid I'd have nightmares.

Now back to the climb.. Am puffing along.... 'cause I just got my book back.

Ginny, you should have that Vanity Fair by now! ????????

No not yet, what has happened to the rest of you? Lots of good questions in the heading, new pages??? Are you all schlepping down to pretty clean Kathmandu for rum buns?

ginny

PAT!! I'm so glad to see you here, we'll pause (like I had a choice, everybody's gone) till you catch up!@ hhahahaha

Sherpa Ax

YESSS! I did get the article (our mail runs late) and read it completely thru last night. Well well. For some reason even tho the author tried to discredit Pittman I find myself feeling the opposite after reading it, for some reason I feel sorry for her, I know I should not what with her Martha Stewart ties (I think they have a lot in common) and all.

Thank you SOOO much for that, MaryPage, one can certainly see that Boukreev was a total hero and shame on her (beginning to dislike her as I do that Weathers) for not acknowleding him and was it Biederman?

Anyway I do dislike the ungrateful and apparently it took all of them to keep her going tho I must say she did train and did seem to be athletic.

Wonder where she is now?

Maybe I sympathize because she's tall, that does look like a shallow life but it's one I have no experience with, I was surprised at the photographs because she's a lot slimmer than I had thought, as well.

Well shallow things for an apparently....well, better unsaid.

I'm scanning in the MICROSCOPIC photo of the grandkids, you were right, tiny tiny.

Now what did I say I would do with the article? Whither next?

Has everybody given UP on this discussion?

ginny

Here you go, MUCH too small but was afraid to try enlarging it:

beautiful grandchildren

ginny

Thanks, Ginny. Actually, it was a normal size snapshot and I have a five by seven of it. It was shrunk in my local Hallmark store and made into self-stick stamps for me to stick on my letters to friends.

I, too, came out feeling sorry for Pittman. From what so many of her friends (?) said, she is obviously one of those extremely well-meaning but clueless people who is like totally oblivious as to how she is perceived by others. Totally focused on what she is doing and utilizing all around her for her needs, but not seeing them as fellow human beings with agendas and needs of their own. Self-centered. She did a number of petty, even mean, things to others involved with Everest that Springtime. I have such an accumulation of those days and the individuals involved in my head now that it is difficult to sort out references. Since we are actually reading THE CLIMB here, I will point to Page 81 and the report of the hours Neal Beidleman put in helping her with her communications gear. Then there is the matter of Jane Bromet, who was doing publicity for Scott Fischer and the Mountain Madness enterprise. She was promised, see page 58, access to Pittman's satellite phone. Then see page 63. This nasty little bit of business is apparently typical Pittman. So, while one does, from the tender nature SOME of us females are endowed with, feel a bit sorry for her because she became such a pariah, I do also go back to Lene Gammelgaard's book where Gammelgaard says she had a hard time right from the first keeping herself from referring to Pittman as Sandy Pitbull.

Weren't you fascinated with the over 70 ladders it takes to do the Ice Fall and the fact there is a Sherpa who owns the franchise on those ladders? Also the fact that Sir Edmund Hillary was in Nepal at the time all this was going on? By the way, he is in the National Geographic film I have.

Catching up here... What big business Climbing has become.

The politics and logistics of such an expedition boggles the mind.. And a clash of personalties doesn't seem to point to success.

Well and then again, some people like Sandy Pittman just don't seem to realize, perhaps as you say, MaryPage, they have no clue how they affect others, no...humility or whatever it is. Wouldn't you love to know what they are doing now?

So who, now, do I send it to and thank you VERY much for mailing it on.

---

OK, now, how about the heading or is there anything in the first 100 pages you'd rather talk about?

It seems to me that Boukreev's understanding of what he was supposed to do versus the actuality is a shock and is very important. Even Fischer got impatient with him and I'm not sure how much of that was Boukreev and how much Fischer, I don't know if the rules were changed in mid course.

One of the photos in the article shows Fischer, bless his heart, he does look like a great person, humble, perhaps.

ginny

Now that I have read 3 books about that one group, I am inclined to believe Scott Fischer was sick from the very beginning. Probably a virus. He was determined to push ahead and make the expedition a commercial success, but his physical resources were depleted and altitude sickness set in and then he lost his judgment. This is the conclusion I come to after reading both Gammelgaard and Boukreev mentioning Scott being sick starting in Kathmandu!

Don't you think it's interesting that the focus of criticism has been on Boukreev, not Scott Fischer. Maybe that's because the Krakauer articles and book drew the initial attention to Boukreev's behavior, or maybe it's easier to blame a "foreigner," someone who did not speak English well.

Yes, Betty, I do believe Boukreev being a Russian who was not fluent in the English language influenced those who did not know him as well to dismiss him. Remember, Krakauer was with a DIFFERENT expedition. And, as I mentioned before, Boukreev himself describes himself as a loner with a difficult personality. He envies the men who are more charming, charismatic and outgoing. And when Krakauer wrote his book, Scott Fischer was newly dead (here, in his defense, Krakauer himself admits he may have written the book too hastily, as others admonished him he was doing) and Boukreev was still alive. We humans have an extremely strong inclination to shy away from speaking ill of the dead. We always want a living goat to blame.

Ginny, why isn't THE CLIMB listed on the current list of book discussions? And recently Pat sent around an e-mail newsletter of the current book discussions, and THE CLIMB was left out! How come? We can't get anyone in here IF THEY DON'T KNOW WE ARE HERE! When you go into the Welcome to Books site, that listing does not offer THE CLIMB.

MaryPage, those are intended for new and upcoming books not necessarily current? It used to be there and just completed a long run on the Home Page as well. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the book, I think it has BEEN in the newsletter but will ask that it appear in the next one.

On Fischer, you can see people are torn. I agree with you that he appears to have been ill from the outset. I had missed (you are SUCH a close reader) that Kathmandu part (and I did hear them say Cat man du in the movie but the spelling IS offputting) but obviously he was not well on the climb.

One of the photos in one of the articles shows a very vulnerable looking man with spectacles and that one photo with what I know happened makes me feel very protective of him too. I think if he had been more of an unlikeable character, I bet the blame would be more distributed.

And Betty mentions the language factor and I'm torn here. K says they could hardly understand a word he said and he understood almost nothing, but apparently, again, he was able to find out about the climbers in peril.

I don't know. He didn't FEEL he was hired for his social ablilties nor to glide the way for the big dollar clients,....so.....what do you suppose he did think he was hired for? Expertise, perhaps....

I don't know. When you read this thing it seems that some trained ferociously and some thought it almost ....there was a big difference in how they trained.

And that up and down stuff, Boukreev constantly moving up and then back and then up and then back and the others were not and were trying to conserve their strength. But look who ended up the strongest,

I don't know?

How important do you think Boukreev's climbing up and down and wearing himself out before the final ascent WAS?

ginny

Ginny, about the language thing...not that I'm convinced myself it played a major role...but I was thinking not in terms of effective/ineffective communication, but of discomfort. I don't know where the stereotype for Russian language/accent falls---I don't think it is seen as romantic like French, or off-putting like middle eastern languages. (The guy behind the 7-11 desk speaks...French...speaks Arabic....speaks Russian?)

I saw Boukreev as protecting himself with his careful scheduling of higher elevation, then rest, then higher elevation, then rest. On this point of scheduling for acclimation, Fischer did not follow Boukreev's advice.

From what I have read in other books and seen in my 4 movies, Boukreev was acclimating in the correct way.

One of the DVDs I purchased, SURVIVING EVEREST, by National Geographic, has on its menu (one of the things I ADORE about DVDs is they have a Menu and you get heaps of extra stuff that you never, ever get with a video and you can go to the menu and choose what you want) an exclusive interview with Sir Edmund Hillary which was given in 1999. In that interview Sir Edmund praises David Breashears and his film to the skies. He obviously not only likes the film, he knows Breashears well and likes him a lot. Anyway, he commented that he liked the tasteful and delicate way in which Breashears handled the 1996 tragedy in his film and volunteered that he, Sir Edmund, was grateful to Breashears for that.

Thank you for that, MaryPage, just goes to show you that you and Sir Edmund were in sinc, I guess I expected to hear more about the tragedy than I did the romance but that's not why it was filmed. The scenery WAS fabulous.

Personally, I think if they can bring down trash they can harness a drag to some of those bodies or give them some sort of burial. I had not realized that the torso in the photo in the book was only half a person. I do think they should....excuse me for noticing, do something about that.

They did bury Mallory under rocks when they found him.

---

Let's move on to the end of Chapter 15 tomorrow, if you all are ready?

I spent last night on the side of the mountain with Boukreev and the others getting scared in spite of myself in this new material. It's obvious the weather is awful. 60 mph winds, only two tents put up. Scott Fischer is exhausted, and has to turn right around and go back. Their oxygen is being depleted, there are a lot of worries on him, he's on antibiotics, his routine is constantly broken up by having to go up and down, don't you feel a sense of dread here? I do.

What is this SHORT ROPING?

Do you think the clients were right to be surprised at the "only one attempt" or was that common sense? (Page 114)....what did this mean to their need to get to the top?

Why did Boukreev not have a radio on page 115 so that Fischer had to once again, go back down.

Let me stop here and let's begin to the end of Chapter 15 tomorrow if you all are willing?

ginny

Boukreev indicated both during the expedition and afterwards that he was concerned at not being issued a radio. The expedition only had 2 and Neal and Scott got them. Perhaps Scott's rationale was that Boukreev did not speak English as well? We'll never know. But the NEXT expeditions DID take note and made absolutely certain that every single non-client climber and/or guide had a radio. I have run into that tidbit. I think it was on one of the DVDs.

That's interesting, MaryPage, sort of like the sinking of the Titanic actually resulted in a law passed about the number of lifeboats on sea from then on, doesn't this section give you the chills? You can almost see disaster coming.

As noted in the heading, I am interested in the character of Miss? Gammelgaard (sp) and since you have her own book, can you reconcile her zen like stance in the book with the quote in the heading and what on earth was going ON up on that mountain?

I guess also I want to ask here, if you were 30 years old again today and had all the money in the world (it must now take 100,000 to have a team take you to the top) WOULD you try for it?

I thought the reaction of the guy...was it Lou on page 142 from Detroit who turned around very striking, let me put it here....

I mean, God, I wouldn't have been there beating my brains out if I didn't. But...I live in Detroit. I'd come back to Detroit and say, "I just climbed Mount Everest." People round here would look at me and say, "Yeah, and did you hear about the Detroit Redwings?"... I mean, nobody here cares, or for that matter even knows where Mount Everest is. "Oh yeah, that's that highest in the world, isn't it?" In fact, a number of people said, "I thought you already climbed that." So to me, in my perspective of things, it wasn't life-and-death to me, it wasn't the most important thing in whe world, and I wasn't going to have newspspers writing stories about me. And media fame and fortune, world records and all that kind of stuff, which were kind of the stakes for....some of the others in our expedition. It meant a lot to me, I don't want to suggest that it didn't. But it just didn't--my ambition to get here just wasn't suffocating every other thought that I had in my mind."

I thought that was interesting. Many times when a person writes something, something else entirely comes out, whether he wants it to show or not.

Mallory climbed because "it was there," and Mallory was an interesting person in other ways, too.

I wonder if, under everything else, the reason people climb the highest peaks is exactly what Lou mentioned and I thought it was fascinating that since people THOUGHT that he had ALREADY climbed it, why bother, he could coast on that in Detroit?

I wonder this morning how important to us the opinions of other people really ARE? Are they important enough to make us spend this money and climb this or any other mountain?

ginny

I have become a really big fan of Lene Gammelgaard from reading her book. Have not run into her saying that to Neal yet, if indeed it is in there. Have completed my speed read and am now half way through the in-depth read, but am engrossed in THE COBRA EVENT, which had me up until two a.m. And then awake for an hour after that!

If I (a much younger I, of course) had all the money in the world and were the world's greatest athlete, I would not attempt to climb Everest. At first, after just THE CLIMB and INTO THIN AIR, I thought I WOULD trek up to Base Camp, but go no further. Now that I have read Gammelgaard and watched 4 movies on the subject, I know I would not even do that. Shoot, you get sick (diarrhea, etc.) just being in KATHMANDU! You get altitude sickness long before Base Camp. I do not require that type of punishment. I will see the Himalaya in film, thank you. Period.

I think a person would get a lot of fame in their community just from climbing Everest and being there for almost 2 months! You do not HAVE to be one of those who actually summits. Don't you think?

What I would really, really like is the chance to SEE it all and HEAR it all, without actually BREATHING & SMELLING it all or FEELING, as in being hot, cold, and bruised, it all. Do not wish to taste it either. My 4 films are great, and if more come out I will probably buy them. Puts me as there, vicariously, as I wish to be.

MaryPage, the Gammelgaard remark is on page 100 at the bottom.

I am torn this morning. I would hate to lose half my brain to that HAPE and HACE and all and apparently you don't know who will get it.

I was exhilerated by my own little trek a couple of years ago to the top of a glacier, but I too have a lot of problems with some of the accoutrements of this type of travel, and having climbed a small mountain here as a lark, I know that I have a lot of problems with the coming down part.

Apparently it's easier to go UP than it is to come down, it's just totally scary, or was for me, and I don't think that I could do it, I really don't.

Add to that the snow and the possible loss of control, add to that that crampon business on the ladders and you have not me.

Interesting how the gorgeous scenery was obscured for those who did summit almost immediately.

ginny

Ginny, I was not doubting the Gammelgaard remark was in THE CLIMB. Just have not run into it in HER book, CLIMBING HIGH, as yet. Will let you know if it is THERE.

Which book, Ginny? I have St. Martin's paperback THE CLIMB. Not there on page 100.

I have Anchor Books INTO THIN AIR paperback. Not there on page 100.

I have Perennial books CLIMBING HIGH trade paperback. Not there on page 100.

I am guessing you mean it is in THE CLIMB and you are reading a hardback edition.

Yeah, the only one I'm reading is The Climb in hardback, I did not know it was in paperback. Poor guy, he didn't have a lot of money when alive and even dead he doesn't get the residuals, he wasn't married, was he?

The remark is at the end of the eighth paragraph in the chapter Toward the Push, or what passes for paragraphs.

Hopefully she will address that remark, it seemed a bit....strong, to me?

ginny

To Ginny and the Everest librarian,

No, I don't think I'd climb Mt. Everest, but in my imagination of my next life here, I think I would like to do the all-out physical challenge, cuts, bruises, exhaustion, a hundred moments of fear/doubt, exhilaration, of maybe something like America's cup (and I'm not even a sailor) or cross country marathon. I have had the mental challenge of 7 years of staying with something that most of my cohort (including me) were sick to death of after 3 years and I often doubted that I'd live through it without killing them, me, or burning down the building. Finishing was the ultimate moment, though, the impossible become possible. The best.

Mary Page... "the Gammelgaard remark is on page 100 at the bottom." It is on page 100 in the hard back library copy I have. She has a way of saying things... that is almost tactless... veryblunt. ..I have just asked for Gammelgaard's book at the library and they have it in catalog, but can't find it.

But maybe reading it will give me a better opinion of her.

Pat and Ginny, I have found the quote on page 116 of the regular paperback edition of THE CLIMB. There is also a trade paperback edition with more pictures and maps.

I really, really like Lene Gammelgaard from reading her book. I get the feeling the guys resented her because she was a strong and able WOMAN climber. And remember, she had MUCH, MUCH more experience than Neal. I pick up in Lene's book that she resented the guys for discounting her abilities, while at the same time she saw them as holding her back. Except Boukreev. She seems to appreciate him.

I really feel now that I can climb up and down that mountain so far as knowing where everything is and what to expect and where to find things is concerned. Of course, with the vertigo I suffer severely from and the old age and the additional 55 pounds and the arthritis and the being out of shape, etc., etc., etc., well, in those senses I could not even put a toe on Mount Everest. But just want you to know I can get up and down vicariously. Have it all mapped out in my head. Can do it in my sleep!

Can you tell I do full immersion when I take it on to learn about something?

I must say, looking at the photos, that that sort of blue color and vista might get in your blood and you might always long to see that blue sky and white mountain, and imagine something so tall it's over the clouds!

As to the topics in the heading, personally when I am climbing anything, stairs, hills, anything, I like to go full speed up? I learned this from horseback riding, actually? A horse when left alone, will literally charge up a hill, I guess the feeling being get it over with. I have found it's easier, too, to go straight up and not pause nor rest nor go slowly. Any time I have ever climbed a set of stairs behind a much slower person I am exhausted at the top, I don't know why.

When I got to the part about the logjam ahead of the climbers, the mixture of teams, some not as fit, and the long waits in altitudes which stripped the breath and energy, I began, myself to almost clutch in fear. I would have turned around right there, could not have stood that, it takes twice or three times the energy to climb under those circumstances. And now we see there is only a short window of time to climb anyway.

What will happen in future? Will the government raise the rates to the point that NOBODY climbs up at all?

---

Given the circumstances, I'm amazed any person would question the one climb attempt rule, who on earth did they think would lead the second assault?

---

MaryPage, it's those who immerse themselves in anything, in my opinion, who get the most out of the experience and that's why were here and value you so much!

ginny

Any more comments on this section before moving on? I suggest we take the last 100 pages starting tomorrow unless somebody else would like to take only 50 more at a time?

Please let me know your suggestions?

ginny

I still don't know the answers to half of those questionsin the heading, including the STAR which was not seen by any astronomer, only by those on the mountain, what does that mean?

ginny

I thought it was only seen by some of the Sherpas? I took it as a bit of superstition.

Well actually on page 149, Henry Todd. some of this staff, Mal Duff and several others, probably mor4e than twenty people, Todd has recalled, saw it.

And said, "We're not talking about me being a little nutty, I saw it."

Interesting, and they may well have been halucinating because of the altitude, but it seems to have really occurred to more than one or just hysteria or a sun glint, I agree about the supersitition.

Shall we move on to the end starting tomorrow, then?

ginny

And so now at last we come to the end of the tale, and the climax of the book as well as life's episodes and I find myself dizzy again with who did what and when and it's confusing to me, this second time around, just like it was at first.

The main issue seems to be whether or not Boukreev erred disastrously by heading back down the mountain at a high rate of speed as noted by another climber, and I guess that would make a good debate point.

Do you feel that Boukreev's descent caused any of the problems?

I was aghast at my rereading this time to see that Beck Wethers sat in the snow 8 hours waiting for Rob Hall's team to take him down as he had been instructed! Just astounded! He was following orders to the nth degree, wasn't he? They left him for dead and he returned on his own.

NOW I want to read his book!

Were you surprised at how many of the climbers needed assistance? It looks to me like there were many many who would not have been saved if others had not half carried them and taken them down.

I think we can see that the lack of communication did not help Scott Fischer's last moments, perhaps Boukreev might have reached him, after all.

Were you surprised at the lack of help Boukreev got when asking for help in the tents?

What are your concluding thoughts to this true tragedy on the mountain?

I've got to read the Wethers book now.

ginny

Ginny, I have not been posting here because I did not see any point in you and I using up valuable space for a two-way conversation!

I am still intensely interested in this whole Everest climbing subject and will pursue it on my own.

No, I do not think Boukreev did anything wrong. I think he did everything as he believed it was expected of him. I think he would have rescued the Rob Hall expedition people if he had had an ounce of energy left. He was totally wiped out and what he accomplished was heroic and beyond human.

See 'ya around!

My Gammelguard book never arrived---that was going to give me points for comparison. It's reordered (why after all this time am I just now having trouble ordering books online?...Sign of the online company troubles?)

I looked at the outline to see when our discussion began, and did you realize we've been discussing these books, pretty much non-stop, since mid-November? The pre-discussion discussion was as good as the discussion.

I moved to Austin just about when the discussion officially started, but that's not really my excuse for erratic participation. I think it's my old nemesis...over-committing myself on too many books.

Speaking of which, Ginny, how many discussions can one person lead? Are you getting enough sleep? Enough down time? Was this last batch a fluke of your stepping in when others stepped away? Nothing shows from your end---I can't tell that you're overloaded, but among all the railroads and mountains, games, and sand and fog, I'd be pulling my hair out. (Makes me feel selfish saying I'm "overcommitted" just to READ and show up at my leisure to several discussions.)

Betty

ahahha, Betty, it's a fluke, this time, but when your Gammelgaard comes and my Beck Weathers comes let's continue, as I know MaryPage has many other sources, at least touching base in the Non Fiction discussion.

MaryPage, with all due respect, I think your opinions are as valuable a space filler as anybody elses, anywhere else on the Boards? In fact, your thoughtful careful and inexhaustable references to the literature of the event have added something nobody else could, and will stand as a record of our discussion, along with Betty's insightful posts. Quality not Quantity is our watchword in the Books!

Let's consider this discussion closed but continue sporadically in the Non Fiction with the other new books we have mentioned...we can't' second guess Boukreev, he's unfortunately dead, and it would be pointless to do so. He says over and over if he HAD stayed up he would have died like Rob Hall and Scott Fischer because of having to help, so I think perhaps there were several heroes here, those who helped the climbers down to the dogpile, for instance, and dragged them along (maybe that's why Pittman rejects him alone as her rescuerer) and Boukreev who went back up?

Certainly if more oxygen were to hand more would have been saved, and the assertions that Pittman used much more than her share, depriving others to the point that masks were yanked off others makes her look not only bad but causative, herself. If there were TONS of cannisters, if there had been extra ones and Sherpas who would have taken them up, more in the stash on the hill, etc. more radios, more climbers who did NOT need oxygen, then perhaps the poor Namba might have been saved. As well as Fischer and Hall.

Why they lingered so long at the top, why Hall helped Hansen at that late hour, who knows?

ginny

Over and over I come back to the FACT that oxygen deprivation takes away our powers of judgment, reason and logic.

With that as a given, there is no sorting out what occurs in these situations.

Right, Marypage, about the oxygen. Remember, too, that there is some pride associated with not using oxygen---when people who have summitted various mountains are listed, those who used no oxygen to climb are considered above/better than those who did use oxygen. Translated (possibly), tougher, in better shape, willing to endure pain. Maybe it is similar to the football player who says, yeah, I was hurting, but it didn't stop me from going back out there. Or the race car driver who doesn't wear the face mask.

Even though both men and women participate in this climbing sport, we're definitely in a male sport domain. The greater the risk.....

This discussion will be archived March 6th, but you may continue to make comments in the Archives. Thanks to all who participated!