A grand "good morning" to all of you and welcome to our newest discussion The Color of Water .

As you can see from the heading above, this discussion is just an open forum, no leader, just the posters reacting to each others thoughts.

I found this book to be extraordinary, have so many many questions, and can't wait to read all your comments upon my return...

This puts a kind of different twist on the ghetto experience, doesn't it? I can't help comparing it to Angela's Ashes .

WHAT do you think of the Mother in the piece, no matter how far you've read?

Was she an extraordinarily strong person? I must admit some envy of her perseverance in the face of terrible odds. What a strange family she had. So many conflicting things to start out, and since we've no leader, I guess I'll say I don't undertand her original family's postition on anything, really.

Her mother, who was crippled with polio, was a beautiful woman, did you see the photo on the back cover? Polio is not exactly a "leper" type disease, yet apparently her husband, who ....didn't he marry her with the disease, treated her like a leper??

Poor woman. Since I almost cut off my little finger, and have had to do everything with one hand for about three weeks, everytime I do something I can hear McBride saying how amazing it was she could do so much with one hand. Fie on the Rabbi, no true Rabbi he! Doesn't "Rabbi" mean "teacher?" Fie!

Ginny

I found this woman amazing from beginning to end, still! But , what drove her? You never quite know her intentions. Makes me want to talk to her but from what her son says she doesn't reveal much when he tries to interview her. What made her appreciate education so much? Her background doesn't to give her much support so why does she work so hard to educate her children? What a woman!

AH YES, The MOTHER (Bubbie) A shadowy figure and indeed the MOST tragic figure in the book. These were East European Jews. A separate breed, not like West European Jews at all. In fact, to this day (Or at least as recently as 20 years ago) one might still run into an elderly woman of this "Type" who refuses or is unable to relate in ANY language.

The background might be better understood from the musical "Fiddler On The Roof", but there is an undercurrent here (In the present book) of an "Arranged" marriage, of Chauvinism without compensatory affection, of an estranged (Why?) family - a very "Strange" family in a strange land. One wonders about the "Jewish" Mother's sanity and intellectual endowment. Certainly the "Rabbinical" Father offered no mitigating features to the story. Indeed, he was more a "Con-Artist" utilizing religion as a prop than a legitimate teacher.

Think about the unfortunate, unloved, displaced, handicapped, "Used", almost abandoned woman, cut off from family and friends, roundly ignored and disliked by her mate, unable to flourish in the soil of her new nation, sitting alone by the window saying in yiddish to the wild birds she has befriended "Little bird, Little bird. Fly away".

Best

LJ

I haven't got the book yet, my main library is sending it to our branch. As soon as I get it, I will read a little and be right in the discussion!

I'm so glad we returned from our weekend in New York in time for me to share my feelings about "The Color of Water" at the start of this discussion. I absolutely loved this book, and could understand each and every character in it because growing up in a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York I knew all of these people at one time or another.

However....I don't think I ever really knew anyone as impressive as James McBride's mother. I had the impression that her first husband was the most influential person in her life, and he shaped what she eventually became. Thank goodness he rescued her from that hateful birth family, because without him coming into her life I think she could have easily fallen into the trap of becoming like her mother.

I am still reading The Color of Water and will finish soon...The book is very impressive but a little hard to follow with the story jumping between the two very interesting life stories...It was with interest that I read of her genuine love for the young black boy that caused her to have an abortion- which thus rid her of the fact she held a baby yet was unwed...Had her father influenced her so much that she found acceptance of the young boy who it seems must have offered her a love not found within her family???? The father accepted all souls it seems and didnt set up any racial barriers for the children to follow...Is this how we learn racial tolerance??? I guess that all youngsters who find family love lacking turn to other means to satisfy this need to be loved...BTW I remember how my grandfather signed a contract forbidding each home owner on the block not to sell to the negros several streets away...It was also while living in my grandparents home that I myself met a nice young black boy my age...The tough Irish girl of our "gang" called him "snowball" so one day as I met him at the park I too greeted him as "snowball"...This sensitive young boy turned to me and asked quietly that I call him by his own christian name Jim...I felt that he shouldnt have taken offense as I was called a "dumb swede with a yellow streak down my back"....but he did feel offended by "snowball"..He by the way died in the Korean War...I enjoy reading of cultures notknown to me and hope the book club will have other books for discussion on those many diverse cultures in America...Ann Marie

I thought this a wonderful, and very unusual book, and think your posts are, too. I also found it a little disconcerting to jump back and forth between the speakers. Sometimes I had to shake myself mentally after a line or two to realize what was happening.

It may not be at this stage of the book, but I do believe the "Rabbi" was an intense bigot. A scene at the end of the book bears this out.

I wonder what any one of us could have done under such horrid circumstances? This really puts a burden on those of us who whine under much less stress.

Of course, as Jill Ker Conway, who wrote Road From Coorain pointed out in her last book, a glowing memoir by a son usually assumes almost "fairy tale" status: nobody's THAT good, and it's not THAT simple, she says...What do you think? This certainly seems to be an unusual woman; those who read Road From Coorain might want to compare women in stress!

Fran, you did nominate a good one!

LJ I didn't know there was a difference in East European Jews and West European Jews? Is even that segment (European Jews) divided, too? I thought I learned a LOT about some customs that I had heard of, but not personally experienced.

And as Ann said, the mother certainly had a drive for education, which she carried out right to the end. What strength of character she must have. Can you IMAGINE not mentioning your past at all to your children??

What did you think, by the way, of MCBride's calling her "Mommy?"

And isn't it strange, in life, and in books, how the very thing we may fear the most or hate the most (or maybe they're the same thing), we end up with intimate knowledge of?

Ginny

Of course there is always danger of gross inaccuracy in making generalizations, and one must also include the element of time in analyzing the waves of European Jewish immigration to this country.

Like many other things, time distorts our impressuions. Did you know that there were SEVERAL ports of immigration? Ellis Island was NOT the only standard port of ingress to the United States.

There were at least two major East European immigrations. The first as I understand it was mostly in response to the Czarist Pogroms. I think the second followed the West European "Heyday". The west European group tended as a whole to be of have become the "Reformed" tradition which is much less rigid than the "Old" almost exclusively orthodox East European tradition. As the older generations of Eastern Jewery have died out there has been a major shift of their progeny to "Reformed"

I'm not as clear on my understanding of "Yiddish" which is essentially a German dialect, but I suspect that it was less commonly spoken by the older East Europeans.

This (in the book) family background, though polish, apparantly was (As was Poland) a "Melting-Pot" of traditions.

Best

LJ P.S.

Andara, who posts only VERY rarely and who at one time edited the Modern Russian Lit folder, knows vastly more about this subject than do I.

Well I have the book but I just haven,t gotten into it yet. I promise next time I come on I will have something to say. I am a new person on here altho I have been in browsing a lot. I followed all of you through Catherine Graham's book. Very interesting. Jean

Have just read a few chapters, but find it is a very sad book and "color" is central to this author, at least in these first chapters. On pg. 5 he says "The image of her riding that bicycle typified her whole existence to me. Her oddness, her complete nonawareness of what the world thought of her, a nonchalance in the face of what I perceived to be imminent danger from blacks and whites who disliked her for being a white person in a black world." And later, "my mother was strange. She never cared to socialize with our neighbors .... she drank tea out of a glass. She could speak Yiddish, etc." I'm sure as the author grows older he sees his mother in a different light.

And later "God is the color of water" and further on Ritchie, the brother, thinks "Jesus should be gray." And a smile - Ritchie wanted to be green like the Incredible Hulk. I remember that show!

But a question for someone? On pg. 12 the mother believes Jewish woman wore wigs because they were bald? Did they shave their heads?

On pg. 46: the Rabbi making fun of black people laughing when they were so poor, and yet, his family had money but were so miserable! Sad, sad, so far the whole book is sad!

Besides the book being sad, it is difficult to read as I must put my glasses on to read the mother's story as it is fine print, and take them off to read the author's story. Most distracting!

And a welcome to Jean (who just happens to be my sister, and she did follow the Graham book which she had read and admired).

LJ: Are you saying that just German Jews spoke Yiddish? Maybe I read that wrong, but am sure the Russian Jews also spoke Yiddish, no doubt with different dialects. Could you explain Yiddish to us - and how it is different than the language spoken in the country the Jewish people lived in?

Some years ago, I read all of Stephen Birmingham's books on the European Jews immigration to America - forget a lot of what I read, but know I was fascinated at the time. I heard him lecture at our Main Library shortly after his first book came out.

This is my first experience with this web site and I truly enjoyed everyones comments. In answer to the question about the wig - They do not necessarily shave their heads. Since a woman's beauty is in her hair an orothodox woman would cover her hair so as not to tempt other men. (Same reasons that the nuns wore headpieces).

As for the mother keeping her background a secret to her children, it seems to me that it was a painful experience -certainly her father's abuse was an important factor - better not to talk about it. Maybe then it would go away.

But what I wanted to know, was why choose two black husbands. Was it deliberate.

I'm afraid I can't tell you much more about "Yiddish" except for some vocabulary. No-one could explain it very well to me when I was a child and was asking some of these same questions myself. Many words are NOT German in origin. I'm afraid that all the "Old" orthodox east european Jews I've known are dead.

Best

LJ

About Yiddish I know nothing, except like LJ have heard phrases when I was younger, that I now have forgotten. I think his mother's life was so unpleasant when she was younger that she tried to disassociate herself from her race and religion as well as her family and friends. Here was a man who was kind to her, seemed to have a purpose in life, and was asking her to join with him. If I were she I would have jumped at the chance. I was very interested to learn that not only her children all received college educations....all twelve of them, but in later years she did also. I wish we could get her to comment about her life, and how her son portrayed her.

I, for one found her life inspiring. She really practiced what she preached with her kids, tolerated no back talk, etc. I could have learned a lot from her. Probably still could.

A great big welcome to Jean (Ella's sister) and Joan. It is great to have you both joining in the discussion and I am looking forward to your comments on this and in any of the other Books & Literature discussions.

I have not yet gotten a copy of this book but am following the comments.

Larry

I am abour one third of the way through the book. I also am having a bit of a problem reading the italic print (nothing new for me), but I am getting used to it. I am sure the mother has blotted out a lot of her early life--wome painful episodes already--I will finish the book this week.

The comment about the epitomizing "Picture" of his mother wobbleing on a bicycle, oblivious of the inherrant risks to herself from both black and white quarters is appropriate. Mama had followed her heart and her natural inclinations in a world which did not accept non-conformity. The only world open to her was black christianity and it seems to me that she latched onto it and trusted in it and was both blessed and extremely lucky to have survived in it.

You have to think of her as determined to do the best she could do living a life which to her, was honest and purposeful, looking always forward, not back, doing the very best she could do to raise her children to be everything that she had not been allowed to be.

This dedication had given her a confidence and "Goal orientation" which prevailed against what appear to be insurmoubtable odds.

The New York scene at that time seems to be the most unlikely place on earth for her to succeed. Indeed this whole tale though obviously true, pushes the limits of credibility.

Best

LJ

Anne Marie: In reading the posts, I was interested in your remembrance of the "snowball" name for the young black boy. Why do you think you have remembered that all these years? We all remember certain scenes of our childhood and often wonder why some remain in memory.

LJ: I had the same thoughts about "Pushing the limits of credibility." We hear and read such dreadful things about the "projects, the drugs and crime." It's truly a wonder that this woman survived in the neighborhood. I don't know what time frame we are reading about?? Will have a look-see to try to determine how long ago this all took place. Can someone tell us?

The introduction and comments in the back about the characters indicate that the mother is now 77 years old. She was first married at 21, in 1942, and then again in the late '50's. She must have been raising that large family from the 'forties to the 'seventies! I haven't been posting because I have to go back and re-read - read the book too long ago and am suffering currently from oldtimer's disease!(Sometimes referred to as CRS.)

Thanks Jo for the info. That disease isn't so bad - I have it, too! Better than the alternative!

Have been thinking about the color of water again. Many years ago I took a beginning course in Art in college and the very first day the instructor gave us all colored chalk and paper, sat us down beside a stream, and told us to sketch a tree and the water. Then he said "And I don't want anybody to pick up a brown chalk for the tree trunk, or a blue or green chalk for water." Have always remembered that! Don't remember how I got out of that dilemma, though! How would you have?

I have often thought that if everybody in the world married a person of a different color, maybe the world would get over this intolerance toward color; but probably not - there is still the problem of religious intolerance.

Ella, about the art assignment, i would have squinted my eys, tried to see sunlight bouncing off the water, and tried a blend of every single color I saw or every one available in the color box at the time - for the water and the tree trunk! Everything is a blend, people are a blend - no pure black or white. We will reach the Utopian state you suggest when our survival as a HUMAN race depends upon it, if the Powers that Be give us the chance to choose that ultimate harmony.

She ignored "Matters of race and identity", and although his mother "Stood apart" from the other mothers at thwe bus stop, and his first time alone with his mother was the first day of school, when he got home and saw his tribe of siblings down the street, they were just a bunch of ordinary people at a distance... I guess, in light of some of our other discussions this all indicates that "Provinance" can be everything or nothing.

Barbadian natives and Montserratians are all black --- VERY black, yet I've had Montserratians say "Klein, you're not white" and more spontaneously a Bajun grocer said to me regarding a native I was with, "Oh HE's not Bajun" as if I were. If you speak the language, many people (seldom Americans) go color-blind.

I think she (mama) was colorless to her friends, children, neighbors and God.

Best

LJ LJ

I've missed being able to participate in this discussion! My hard disk evidently got fried on June 5th and I've been without a computer since then. I took it in to service, and you can guess the rest. . . wait, wait, then wait some more. Fortunately there's a "cyber cafe" in town and I can rent time on AOL.

I've already seen half a dozen questions, and as many comments, that I'd like to be able to respond to, but will wait until my own machine is back on my own desk.

There's no denying this is a provocative book and there's room for lively discussion.

Ros

I've just read a few pages but already I know I'm going to enjoy McBride's writing style, admire his mother, and be charmed by the young James. I hope we are told how the mother met Andrew McBride. I can understand her marrying him, but I question a 21 year old Jewish woman planning on such a marriage before she met him.

Just from the few pages I've read, I have the impression James mother has a soft spot for him, as if she knew what he thought and would remember.

When James sees his mother waiting the bus stop and when he talks to her in the middle of the night, when she is there for him after school, I wonder if she was there for the other children. Somehow, I think that she was. As he lets you know that she was a non-conformist, other women of her day, come to my mind. There were and are other women with her determination and in similar circumstances. But not with the color involvement! They just try to live their lives the best that they can. She is an incredible success! I saw a 60 minutes back in the 80's that presented a wonderful black family of share croppers whose oldest child wanted to attend college fervently. So, the father agreed to help the child get through if he or she would promise to help the brothers and sisters also attend college. There were, I believe, 12 or 13. After getting them all through school, the parents were celebrating their 50th anniversary and the children came home and built a new house for the parents and gave the father a grand piano. It brought tears to my heart and eyes.

About Rachel, I think she always possessed talent and drive. She charactrerizes herself to James as claustrophobic, a runner, a sprinter. No way she could have survived much longer than she did in her father's household, and fate led her to James McBride. All the talent and energy she had and all the faith she acquired were channeled into those children. I imagine that look of single purpose on her face as she bumped along on that old bicycle through a territory where she was largely regarded as an alien. She didn't care! She had the strength to do what she was determined to do and she has been rewarded in her children for that determination. I envy her that strength.

One of the ideas that I found most interesting was in her (Rachel) names. She says something like I had to destroy the old names so I could create someone new. She says she has no self-esteem when she leaves her childhood home where all the abuse took place. From there she builds on who she is inside herself. Where did that come from I wonder.

The mother of Rachel has such a sad story. Used for her money and discarded. Rachel says she was not nice to her mother. I wonder if the father's attitude rubbed off on Rachel.

No mention is made of her own schooling. I wonder if her teachers have some influence on her attitude. Somewhere she acquired her strength.

James paints beautiful word pictures, doesn't he? The bicycle image is wonderful.

Sage

Haven't read this book ... but was browsing through and noticed the question about Jewish women wearing wigs. In Orthodox custom, married women must keep their own hair covered at all times because the sight of a woman's hair is sexually arousing to men. Some scholars approve the wearing of a wig with no additional headcovering such as a scarf, hat, or veil; others insist that even a wig must be covered because of the "appearance factor," i.e., a man might be misled into thinking that he is looking at the woman's own hair. Today, only ultra-Orthodox women keep their hair covered at all times. Unmarried women do not have to keep their heads covered, according to the Code of Jewish Law, in order to make clear to men the marital status of a woman. My source is "The Second Jewish Book of Why," by Alfred J. Kolatch, Jonathan David Publishers, Inc., 1985.

On pg. 61 I was amused (although that is not the right word) when Rachel says "In Suffolk, they had a white folks' school and a black folks' school and a Jewish school." She explains that the Jewish school was not really a school, just instruction. Am curious to know if there was a Catholic school in Suffolk. Throughout the book, the issue of intolerance toward blacks and Jews are discussed, but not the Catholics. I remember in the '40's listening to conversation up above my head and thinking the Pope was going to buy America!

I wonder how I could have kept my sanity with 12 children; that alone would have driven me over the edge, not to mention the racial problems. Rachel ruled over these children with "severe beatings" (pg. 67), and by the King/Queen Rule; all of which would go against the "grain" of modern day teaching. At one time in my life we lived near a family who had 9 children and the oldest was responsible for the next youngest in every aspect; dressing for school, studying, etc. Worked great for them - a well-disciplined family! However, the father had to work 2 jobs to support his brood.

I admired Rachel (and the author) when it was stated that the children were saturated with books, art and music instead of food; however, the chaos in their eating habits is somewhat deplorable. But there was little choice in their economic situation.

One lovely sentence: "The question of race was like the power of the moon in my house. It's what made the river flow, the ocean swell, and the tide rise, but it was a silent power, intractable, indomitable, indisputable, and thus completely ignorable." What do you think of that statement?

Ella, To me the quote you give in the last paragraph of your posting means the impact was definitely there (like the power of the moon) and there was absolutely nothing that could be done about it (again like the power of the moon on the earth).

I just picked up this book today at the library and read the first few pages. It looks like this will be a very interesting book.

Larry

The Jews I knew who came from Eastern Europe came here to escape from the pogroms of Russian Cossacks and severe Polish anti-Semitism. The first language they spoke among themselves was Yiddish. However this was not for long. Education and assimilation in America was of the utmost importance to them. They loved this country and wanted to be a positive addition to it having come from lives of persecution. They very quickly learned to speak English. It was when they didn't want their children to understand something that they lapsed into Yiddish. When they realized that the children eventually began to understand the Yiddish, they would revert to Russian. Unfortunately today Yiddish is a dying language. Most of us understand some and speak a little…but that's the extent of it.

Education was and is of primary importance in the Jewish family. I remember when our children were young and complaining about something or other in their schooling, that I told them they were ours until they graduated from college. If at that point they chose to quit, it was their decision then but not until then. It worked!

I wanted to wait until I finished the book, I am only half way through it, still recovering from fierce exhaustion from our trip and having added a sprained ankle to it all. Fortunately I had the good luck to wait for that to happen until we got home. However I realize if I wait until I finish, some of my responses to comments may no longer seem relevant. This is a case in point.

Oh another bit...about changing names. Many of the names were changed to escape anti-Semitism in America. However many names were changed for them while going through the immigration and schooling process. For example when my grandparents came here from Russia their name was Krakmelnickoff...when they went through immigratiion (in Philadelphia) it became Melnick. An aunt whose name was Marushka quickly came home from school named Mary...and so it went.

Helen: Maybe you can answer our questions about Yiddish - what language, if any, it was derived from? I believe we thought (a few posts ago) that both the Russian and German Jews spoke Yiddish. Yes, I agree, one hates to see a language, or any part of a culture, disappear. Oh, please don't wait to comment until you finish the book - if you are anything like me, you've forgotten half of what you've read!!!

My Great Grandfather who was also my great uncle was named Davidovitch, but the guy who got off the boat in front of him was named Klein, so we're Klein.

The derivation of "Yiddish" is not as clear as some would think. Some phraseology is clearly german idiom. e.g. Es tut mir veh die ganze koerper. (Everything hurts) but what about words like Chutzpah and Pfnecke (referring to intestinal fortitude or brassiness)

Best

LJ

I'm amazed at what Rachel/Ruth accomplished in that chaotic household. I'd be skeptical except I know people who are able to work that way - cut right through the chaos to accomplish the most crucial things. It's a question of clear priorities and unflappable concentration, I guess. I'm easily distracted by too much confusion, but she was not. The children's education was paramount, a fact attributable to the heritage she forsakes, and she admits it. Despite the terrible relationship with her father, she credits him for having paid for certain lessons to make sure his children learned what he thought was essential. Reading about Ruth's methods for making sure her children got the best possible education gives me insight to our own urban Jewish community and the wonderful achievements of their children who attend city schools.

Finally got "The Color of Water". I'm enjoying it immensely, just started reading it last night and am up to Chapter 11. I am confused about one thing - though it may be solved as I read more of the book - James McBride refers to his "biological" father and later on Rev. Abner Brown as his father.

My grandfather told me that when new immigrants were signed up for work for the "Boston El", whatever the timekeeper thought the name sounded like determined what was written down. No Social security numbers, licenses, etc that we have in abundance today to identify us!

Eileen Megan

Ruth has every reason to hate the South, but what she says about the South is strange. Something like it puts on a good front, all neat and tidy, and underneath all hateful and cruel. (I am doing the book by audio, so I can't go back in the book and find the page.) I think we can all say that about our cities and town. I don't know if it's more so in the South.

Ruth talks about her education finally. She was perhaps more self-educated as well. And at last she is maybe not as strong as I first suspected. She manages to go on.

The name change again is strange. James talks about her driving. Under one name she could drive, but under Ruth she could not. Even James, was confused.

My mother was from a large family, and is as was said, the oldest helps the youngest and so on. DeeDee is like the lost child since Rachel leaves home and leaves DeeDee behing. So sad when her sister begs her not to go.

Sage

The abortion chapter was sad - her N.Y. relatives were as cruel as her own family, but the story is an old one and a new one both. Children in their teens getting pregnant! It's a story that emphasizes my strong position of being pro-choice and against pro-life. What would have happened to this 15 year-old mother and her black baby is beyond imagining.

PURPLE SAGE: the son was confused because she told him that she and her sister had driven a delivery truck all over the place, but later in the "Big City" she never did master that fine automobile of her husband's..

Seems to me, even a lot of young people in NYC ride bikes. Its probably easier, faster, safer and cheaper than trying to deal with traffic.

ELLA: You are SOOOO Right. Here we are in the midst of a worldwide population explposion, past the "Point of No Return", poisoning our air and destroying our natural resources and there's this big "To-Do" and illogical effort to try to make it worse by denying women the choice of how to deal with their own bodies.

Best

LJ

I think that the absolute epitome of pragmatism is to be found in the lines' "Mommy's contradictions crashed and slammed against one another like Bumper Cars at Coney Island. White folks, she felt, were impilcitly evil toward blacks, yet she forced us to go to white school;s to get the best education. Blacks could be trusted more, but anything involving Blacks was probably slightly substandard" As she continues her likes and dislikes, talking about bigots, and people who try to be snooty etc. it becomes apparant to me that she hadn't grasped the importance of the fact that a lot of things we think of as "Color Coded" are indeed a matter of socio-economic inequality, not truly directly related to color at all. Unfortunately, in a white dominated society all persons of color are judged by caucasians as socio-economically inferior until proved otherwise. (And vice versa)

Best

LJ

LJ, I am completely in agreement with you about so much of prejudice being based on socio-economic stereotypes! So many people classify all blacks as being inner-city, under-educated, rebels and rabblerousers. They think the educated blacks are the exception. Truly, there are as many rotten, inner-city, dropout whites as blacks and they are just as despicable, if not more so. If only people would judge people on the basis of who and what they are instead of the color of their skin--obviously, a trite comment--but still an apt one. My doctor is black or at least mixed race. She is fantastic. One thing I will hate about moving is leaving her behind. She is really the only high profile black, if not the only educated black in our small town, but everyone respects and loves her. Why can't we all give any black or minority that kind of room to demonstrate their value before judging them, and without their having to have a "Dr." in front of their name. I haven't had the time to read this book, but it will definitely go on my to do list and I will keep up with the postings. Sharon

Its difficult for me to word this next comment, but can you imagine how the "Yehuden" who resented Rachel and sat shiva for her because she left her faith, would feel about a (So-called) orthodox Rabbi who sexually abused his daughter, cheated his neighbors, and abandoned his helpless wife. What child would or could possibly trust such a faith?? If any ONE thing in Jewish tradition is an absolute taboo, surely it is incest.

Best

LJ

Interesting that Rachel hated the South and couldn't wait to leave permanently and James found Boston (North) so uncomfortable that he had to leave. His destination is his mother's home in North Carolina where he finds out as much as he can about her background - Old Man Shilsky, etc., and the neighborhood where she grew up and went to school. There's a feeling of estrangement, loneliness in both of them, as if they are seeking a clearer identity and/or a comfort zone.

I thot I had put a message here this am, but I don't see it. i doubt I will ever get the hang of this computer. I am reading this book and wonder what it would be like if we could only read between the lines. Ssuch a life, both for the mother and the children had to be unbelievably hard and how could they cope so well. I hope this get printed (posted) and if so I will continue to write as i go along in the book Just Jean.

I am reading the book and am wondering what we would really find if we could read between the lines. Hard to baelieve this family survived let alone all went through college etc. What a strong brave mother they had to instill all that into them. Jean

I thot my discussion message went through. I don't know why they won't take it. Anyway for my 2 cents worth, I am reading the book and wondering how this family survived. There is a lot of things in betqween the lines that you will never know and that is what i would like to hear about. I had to be terribly hard to be the mother or any of the children. Back in those times how did they survive? Jean

Jean,...Your posts are being received. all three of them. Just relax you will get the hang of it. After you post, it will take you back to the book section. Scroll down and you will see your post. You can make corrections by using the edit button between 'mark message' and 'delete' You can delete one or two messages by the delete button. Have fun, we all did.

Welcome to the book discussion. I also wish for more detail in the book. I guess one has to use their own mind as to the day to day happening.

Sage

Just finished reading the book. What is most interesting to me is how many things can be found in the same book by different people who come to the book with their individual history.

LJ, I come from a reform Jewish background. Of course, incest is taboo in Judiasm. I can't imagine what his congregation would have thought if they had known what the Rabbi was doing - how he treated his wife and his daughter.

I think there is a lot left unsaid. I would have liked to know more details about how Rachel/Ruth lived after the abortion and before she met James' father. She was on her own - did she just do what other's told her to do or did she do what she wanted to do? How much of what she did was dictated by her lack of money? Did she have any women friends besides Francis in North Carolina?

A very interesting story.

Sunshine, she doesn't seem to have had any other friends. She loved Frances because Frances didn't care about what her ethnic background was, didn't ask questions or make judgments - she was a FRIEND! I don't think she was on her own very long before she moved in with James's father, but there was a short period of time when she was doing manicures and running around with questionable characters. She was lucky in a way that nothing horrible happened to her during that period of time.

"We did not consider ourselves poor, or deprived, or depressed"

This is the third of Mommy's major "ATTITUDE PRINCIPLES". The first was her attitude toward color and faith which was total commitment to her Christian principles (She loved Judaism but her confidence had been destroyed by her experiences and her family). This gave her the ability to live this unique life without fear or hesitation.

The second was the ability to set her priorities i.e. School and Family. Everything else was secondary and there was simply no time or point in worrying about the little stuff.

The third point was that poverty is a state of mind, not a reality.

This last point is difficult for anyone born since the depression to comprehend, but it is real. It's a loss of confidence in the future that makes poverty real, not the lack of luxury.

Best

LJ

I just finished reading “The Color of Water” and enjoyed it immensely. Ruth/Rachel sounds like a force of nature. I admire her guts, her faith and her sheer determination in the face of what,to most of us, would be insurmountable odds. Her first husband was very influential in guiding her to use her energies in the the right direction.. Her deep faith was what sustained her after he died and gave her the strength to bring up her large family with strong convictions. Like life itself, it doesn’t sound like a “Walton Family” existence by any means, it was chaotic and crazy and scary but somehow she succeeded. I feel that if she actually had a “choice” she wouldn’t have gotten her abortion. Having 12 children and, in later years, working with homeless unwed mothers, a dilemma that she could identify with, makes me believe that. I wonder if James will write any more books, maybe giving us a more detailed picture of each of them. I sure would like to know more!

Eileen Megan

I am just about halfway through this book so don't have all of the pieces of the story. At this point I have great admiration for Ruth to be able to raise these 12 children under very difficult circumstances. It appears to was able to insulate them into their own world to protect them while they were young, even though as they became teenagers there was rebellion.

I have just read the chapter where James talks about his discomfort with his Mother at a certain stage in his life because she wasn't black. I can't help but think that must have been and probably still is a very difficult thing for him to deal with now as an adult and with the additional insight he obtained about her background.

I found the king/queen concept that Ruth used with her children pretty inventive and probably a good management tool. Of course, James realized that she never gave up her power.

I thought the depth of her love for her children was well exemplified in her efforts to get her daughter to return home after she had run away in rebellion.

Larry

In a former discussion group where we read this book, one of the things brought out was the inventive ways Ruth used to entertain her children. Although no extra money was available, she managed to take them places like the street festivals, the parks and others when only carfare was necessary. I would imagine just scraping together enough for that was difficult.

I also would like to talk to the other children and wonder how they feel about their upbringing. It would seem James has managed to bring this great story to print without stepping on anyone's toes.

LJ-I like your definition of poverty as a loss of hope in the future. Right on the money!

Ann, I noted in the reading I did yesterday that Ruth would play one subway fare and then push all of her children through ahead of her. The story said the attendants gave her a hard look but allowed her through.

If James provided an accurate picture of his early teen years it is a wonder he ever survived to maturity. He lead a pretty rough and undisciplined life and must have caused his Mother a great deal of anguish.

Larry

LJ: Have been meaning to comment on the name change of your great-great ancestors - it was a funny story, in a way, but it must have been very bewildering! A new country, new language, new name! No one in your family was ever inclined to correct the record? Have any of you been in touch with the relatives in the "old" country? I know of a couple of people who have gotten either certificates or placques from Ellis Island that so-n-so arrived on a certain date, so they must have kept accurate records, even if the name was changed! What other ports of entry were there? I know quite a few Jewish people settled in the west after Spain run them out of Mexico - way, way back then!

Finished the book yesterday and was moved to tears (literally) by that chapter "A Bird Who Flies." James McBride should continue writing books, he apparently is gifted in writing as well as music. I wonder if he could write as beautifully and movingly on another subject as he did on this very personal story.

Ruth must have believed that God forgave her for leaving her mother in such dire conditions, but I doubt she ever forgave herself, hearing her mother sobbing throughout the rest of her life and carrying her mother's passport.

On pg. 207 I am puzzled as this statement: "Most black folks considered "finding myself" a luxury. White people seemed to think of it as a necessity." Do you believe that?

One other criticism before I leave this book. Why did he write that epilogue? What, if anything, does that add?

Ella writes......On pg. 207 I am puzzled as this statement: "Most black folks considered "finding myself" a luxury. White people seemed to think of it as a necessity." Do you believe that?

Yes, I do believe that. I think that people who are struggling to meet life's necessities like food, clothing and shelter must think we are absolutely crazy fools to waste time, "examining our navels", as my husband puts it. I definitely don't think this thinking is restricted to black people, who to all people who do not have that luxury.

Fran: We've all read of wealthy people, particularly celebrities, going into an analysis program with a professional, which must be very expensive indeed! Never have heard if they "found themselves", though have you? I doubt many "white" people can afford that luxury either, that is, if they think they are lost in the first place.

I'm just surprised that James McBride, who has and is living in both black and white environments, would generalize this way.

I assume from the remark "examining our navels" - haha - that your husband believes that finding one's self is going back to one's roots. In that case, don't you think James McBride found quite a few bits and pieces of his roots in writing this book? I know geneaology (sp?) has become a hobby of a great many people, particularly since the advent of the computer. Are these people engaging in a form of "finding themselves?"

Personally, I have never understood what one expects to find when they "find" themselves. Much cheaper to buy a road map! <G>

I think "finding himself" for James was the need to discover where he and his family fit in culturally. Ruth left the South because she was unhappy there, and when James is unhappy in Boston he decides to go to Suffolk to find out just what part it played in his family's history. He uses the word "lonely" over and over in this part of the book, including the time he sits on the steps of the synagogue where his grandfather had been the rabbi. The weight of confusion and rejection seems to lift when he discovers there are people of all religions and ethnic groups who care about him, remember his family, make him welcome. His need for self-discovery goes beyond wondering where he can succeed as an individual; it has a great deal to do with family history and the rejection experienced by so many over the years.

Hope it's OK if I butt in here ... though I haven't read the book and don't even have it yet ...

My daughter used to have a T-shirt that said:

I'm trying to find myself.

Have you seen me lately?

I liked LJ's definition of poverty as lack of confidence in the future, rather than just lack of money or income. I think that is very true.

I also agree that white people tend to assume that blacks are of low socio-economic status in the absence of evidence to the contrary, and vice versa ... but I think it's also true that BLACKS think of other blacks the same way, and the reverse for whites. Everyone internalizes the assumptions of the culture to some degree.

My college roommate (now a doctor -- probably the most brilliant person I have ever known) is the daughter of a Pakistani father and a mother whose mother was African-American and her father, Dutch. My friend is dark-skinned but she gets her color from the Pakistani side. On her mother's side, many of their relatives "pass" for white (well, actually, by skin color they ARE white) and refuse to acknowledge any connection with the black side of the family. At least, that was true 35 years ago; I'm not sure how true it is today, but I suspect it hasn't changed much.

My friend and I were roommates in college in northern Ohio and went to graduate school at UC Berkeley together. Our "color" difference never seemed significant to me until she came to Kansas City, my home town, to visit my family for a few days before we set off together on the train to Berkeley. As I planned our agenda for those few days I was embarrassed to realize that there were many places in Kansas City, in those days (1959), where she and I could not go together. I had grown up in that milieu and despite an undergraduate degree in sociology, had never really faced up to what was going on in my own home town. Alas, it hasn't improved much, as far as I can see.

I completed the book last evening and still feel that I don't have a very good picture of the Mother. What a complex and complicated personality and such contradictions. It is probably that very complexity that carried Ruth through the many very difficult and heart-breaking events that seemed to fill her life.

To me one of the missing links in this story is how she was able to get all of her children through some very excellent schools. Also the role played by the other children in the family is very lightly touched upon beyond the king/queen situation.

Perhaps we were seeing the conflicts that James has experienced played out through the story of the Mother more than the story of the Mother. I thought it was very telling that he would not hold on to some very good jobs. Also I wondered if his indecision about what he really wanted to do, i.e., writing or music, is another playing-out of the conflicts he feels in life.

This was a very readable and thought-provoking book. I sort of wish there had been more chapters as there seems to have been a lot left unsaid. Of course, that is better than oversaying the story.

Larry

Ella,

I think "examining our navels" refers to our psycological searching for ourselves while genealogy refers to our ancestors and our roots. My mother used to say that she couldn't understand all these people searching for themselves because she got up every morning and there she was!

Doing genealogy takes a lot of dedication but is fun. Especially when you come across good stories connected to your family.

Larry

I agree that this book leaves much to be desired concerning the siblings of James but it still remains very well written and certainly thought provoking. Sounds like Ruth had her hands more than full in the raising of these children. I, too, wondered how they were able to go to the best schools. The story gets curiouser and curiouser if you let yourself think beyond the pages, doesn't it?

Remember how Ruth went through all the communications the kids brought home from school at registration time? There was a small window of opportunity for registering students in schools out of their district, and she always took advantage of it so that they would be in "better" schools. She was quite aware that some districts had better programs, higher achievers, better teachers. Undoubtedly she knew about every scholarship or grant available to the talented and promising student with no money.

I attended a special school in NYC myself, and know a little about the circumstances there. I'd say that any parents in NYC who are eager and serious enough about their kids education, become well informed about how the system works, can do what's necessary _without_ much or any extra cash (exc. perhaps subway fares, reduced for students) to have their children take advantage of what NYC's immense system offers.
I enjoyed the book alot ... think it's extremely well written and edited, with a keen sense of observation and memory that I envy, as well as a lot of real humor. It also offers a lot of insight into interracial circumstances and cultural differences.

The other day somebody asked about the epilogue. I think James wrote it because it was important to him to have a Jewish friend. He could share an ethnic history with someone, appreciate and even participate in that part of his history. (They had many other things in common, of course.) Also, it gave him an opportunity to show Ruth's reaction to the religion she abandoned. She showed interest and affection for the people, but when she explained the rituals to James it seemed to be with friendly detachment - no trauma, no guilt, no evident longing to return to her past.

I finished the book, and like Larry it left a lot unsaid. If poverty was having no hope, then Ruth was never poor. The hope she had for her children was rich indeed.

I wanted to know more about Ruth. How did she endure, what was her power that drove her. So much of how she survived left unsaid.

A powerful insight into interracial marriage and family. That she survived, but with scars is telling. James I thought was trying to understand his mother.

Sage

Though my parents were not interracial, I grew up with problems of Jewish identity: in Nazi Berlin I had to be sent to a Jewish school, and my mother who knew nothing of Jewish holidays, etc had to try and give me some home support for what I was getting in school... so I can empathize in some ways with what is described in the book ... also I've really dealt with the problem of Jewish identity as an assimilated Jew all my life since then. Few Americans seem to understand that Judaism is not just a religion, or necessarily a religion in their "normal" sense ... a lot of the Jewish practice they observe in this country is very Americanized... sort of Jewish version of Sunday morning Christianity.
Anyone who is born of a Jewish mother is a Jew according to Jewish law, and Jews are an ethnicity and in that sense a nation still partly in diaspora. People like me, who were not really taught to practice or believe, thus are left with endless ambiguity and doubts about every aspect of their lives. Don't mean to make myself sound as a victim though -- had a great life -- just trying to explain.

Well, I think Ruth survived because, for the most part, she was happy, and she was "Happy" because she chose so to be. She reveled in the challenges of raising her children in the image of what she had learned was what she should strive to be; She feared not because of the 23rd psalm and the inner certainty of her rectitude; She was bolstered by her chosen "Faith" which (Whether she would admit it or not, was founded on the Decalogue); AND she was indeed very "Lucky"

I got a real "Kick" out of the description of the "Vermont" Liquor store at the corner of 34th and Vermont in Louisville's West End. I've eaten Thanksgiving dinner and Christmas Dinner within three blocks of that corner for the past 15 years and skipping the three years I lived in the Islands , intermittantly for a number of years before that. (Old friends from the "Demonstratin Days")

At the time McBride was there, it was a pretty quiet "Middle-Class" neighborhood, true it was all black, but the most excitement in those days was an occasional teen-ager squeeling his tires. In the past five years it has degenerated terribly. There are now killings in the area almost every week, and most of those who aren't too old or too poor, who can, have moved away. (My friends are just too old to move) (Too old to cook, too- now)

The realy rough "Liquor store" corner in McBride's day was at 7th and Kentucky. closer to "Down-Town".

I'd love to "Ramble" on but I'm a week behind because of a sudden death in my computer earlier (When was it? I lose all sense of time when I'm cut off from you guys)

Anyway, I've still got a lot to say. Hope I can get back in time to say it all.

Best

LJ

LJ, We will be glad to wait on your comments as long as necessary. They are gems and add so much to the discussion of the story. Glad you are back in business.

You must be worried about your friends still living in such a dangerous environment. It is certainly a shame to see areas destroyed such as that neighborhood, but it happens all over. We are seeing the same thing happen in Atlanta and some of the outlying towns.

Larry

Ella! Sorry it took so long to reply but I am into computer graphics and have been concentrating on that..you ask how I remember "snowball" and I guess it remains in memory because I was raised without either parent and was somehow brought up by grandparents--my grandfather continually asked questions to ascertain my abilities and also if I had any substantial amount of IQ while my grandmother anguised over having to raise a family (my brother and I) at the "age of 55"! Maybe to me Sno was somewhat like me in a certain sense...fighting circumstances--he his color of skin and for me the fact that I really had no "family"...which leads me into wondering how this dear mother in our book could create empathy among so many children...do they all "dearly" love and cherish her????Or is it a relationship as one mother I have met who hated being "MOTHER" and had her children all call her by her first name! Talk about rebelion! I dont know about raising 12 children...I raised three and did well with my agenda on only the first one--he became eagle scout...the other two sorta made it ok but less with "burned out" me...have you ever lead a scout through all those badges???? I was also girlscout leader in a neighborhood of women who had no inclination to cooperate or to assist in the little darlings learnings and accomplishments...But that was me...I personally cant see having twelve and am glad that planned parenthood is there for those who are enlightened...Today one can see how enlightened the black community members are easily (talking about enlightenment) and you only have to see this as you talk with them that they too have accomplishments as well as problems created by our society and mores...But dont all of us have thus??? I have had several black professors as I continue to remain a college student and they are all different yet they are all truely "learned" as any other folk...It all goes to prove that as my mother once wrote to me "If you want something bad enough you will always find a way to get it" and she sent me a book on how to accumulate money in various ways....She would today be shocked at my plastic in hand!!! Ann Marie

Some Vignettes: How'd you like McBrides daddy watching a car thief drive away with his junk heap??. One gets more from insurance than a "Trade-in" or sale. I tried it with my Caddilac last year, but nobody would take it.

Mama's comment "You have to choose between what the world expects of you and what you want for yourself" I guess thats why I identify with her so well (and why I live on this hillside in the woods in an old trailer)

"I'm done with funerals", she said. I agree. I Don't go to them and Don't plan to have one of my own. I've given me to the University, but I hope somebody takes the tattoo of "Rafiki" with his staff off my thigh, to make a "Wall Hanging" (or a lampshade decoration?)

Just think how fortunate McBride was to experience Harlem in its heyday!!! We had nothing like it here, but there was one bar called "The Top Hat" to which a few of us from the East End would go for the very best in "Avand-Gard" entertainment. There is still to this day an annual "Walnut Street Review" (Walnut St. is now "Mohammed Ali" Blvd.) at the Ky Center for the performing arts where "Old Time" performers are remembered. I saw Nat King Cole's (Today, people remember only his daughter) three brothers at one of those several years ago

And on page 186, do you remember "James, James, Morrison, Morrison, Wetherby, George Dupree" Yeah!!! "If people go down to the end of the town, what can anyone do (or is it "Say")?"

Well, nuff fer now.

Best

LJ

LJ: Glad you are back! Was wondering about you and about ready to email the other hosts around to see where you were. Miss your comments when you're not here. Wonder why I know you enjoyed this book tremendously! hahaha We all did. And WE ALL REMEMBER NAT KING COLE! One of my favorites of all time, that heavenly voice, perhaps we'll get a chance to put in a request to hear it again at the pearly gates, eh?

Ann Marie: My 5 sisters and I were partially raised by all sorts of people and five years spent in an orphanage; speaking of which this orphanage was connected to a fundamentalist type church and it could beat the Jews when it came to "plain women" - everything was sinful and women were constantly tormented about their clothes and appearance for fear they might tempt men. Such ugly women and children! Oh, to be born a man who doesn't have to worry at all, HAHA! But we all know who is the force in these type of religions don't we? Someday women, we will rise up and demand this nonsense be stopped.

My book went back to the library, but I did enjoy it - thanks, Fran, for suggesting it. I would rate it a 7+

I've heard folks say they wished somebody would just STEAL the thing! I know of one case where the family wreck (heap?) was stolen...and returned! Sort of like "the Ransom of Red Chief" where the kidnappers paid to have the family take the kid back! The owner of the returned vehicle said he wished they had pushed it off a cliff.
Weddings start more trouble than funerals do.

My copy just came up for my turn from the library.... Will hurry down and give it a fast read.

I've already read Cold Montain... took it to China with me.

"The Color of Water" was extremely interesting. I thought the structure of the story added to its effectiveness. Ruth is a remarkable woman. Beatrice Sager

Beatrice, It is great to see you posting in this discussion. This was certainly a fascinating book and one that certainly held my interest. I agree that Ruth is certainly a strong character and faced many challenges in her life.

Larry

On page 196, I'm surprised that No-One has commented on the similarity to Jude and Sue Brideshead in our recent discussion of Great Books.

Best

LJ

LJ, I didn't even think of it when I first read it, but I see the connection! The difference is between Sue and Ruth - the latter would never behave as Sue did. She was glad to be loved and protected with or without the license - well, at first, anyway. Her parents' marriage was certainly no inspiration to emulate a traditional and "socially acceptable" union.

In the latter parts of the book the author reveals himself and his Mother as ordinary mortals with all of the failings and problems of us "Normal" human beings..

His work history reveals problems, but more astute perceptions than most, and her acceptance of the reality of her church's motion into a new era in which she was no longer a "King-Pin" are common experiences, not so much of growing old, but rather of growing up.

I'll bet many of us have "Been there" and for those of us who haven't let me suggest that the lessons are: 1.Nobody REALY cares who we were or what we have done. All that realy matters is Who and what we are now---today. and 2. As a retired librarian from Harvard told me in answer to the question of why she was doing a job as librarian in an off-shore medical school on a nearly desert tropical (but beautiful) island where social life for such a gracious lady was virtually nonexistant: "When I retired I found that as long as I had work or something I could call "My Job" I was somebody, but If I had no work (or job) I was just simply not anybody"

I understand that. I think its called that Lower Middle Class Baptist Work Ethic. Although I'm not and (Thank the Lord) never will be Baptist, These are some of the things that the present generation would do well to embrace.

Best

LJ

LJ, is that philosophy close to the idea of being GOOD - good for something??? If so, I don't think there are any religious or ethnic boundaries confining it to a group.

Caio ciao (not sure how to spell it) from the eternal city, ROMA!!

I see you're having a wonderful discussion, as usual!! Can't wait to read all the posts. Hope all is going well with you all, have become addicted to Italian game shows:the worst. Have never seen such hosts, such carrying on.

Having a great time, see you on July 4th!

Ginny

Ginny, Great to see our world traveler checking in. Have been thinking of you and hoping your were having a great time.

LJ, I certainly agree with the concept that having something to do everyday is very important to a person's self-perception, or at least it is to me. While we may change the focus of our work, most of us still want some type of work whether it be volunteer activities, church related, or active participation in SN.

Larry

Ginny, How nice to hear from you!!! Enjoy the rest of your time in Italy!! (I`m jealous!)

I finished the book and feel it was so worthwhile!! I am going to suggest it for the next read in our AAUW Book Group!!

Wasn't that fun to hear from Ginny! And, pray tell, when does she have time to watch game shows in Italy? Maybe she's getting "tuckered out" from all the sight-seeing and has to relax with TV in her room, do you suppose?

If you get back to this site, Ginny, I know you are just WOWING THEM IN ITALY!! Can't wait to hear all about it!

Ginny, how great to hear from you. See what happens when you haven't got your 'puter - watching Italian game shows, indeed! Can't wait 'till you get back.

Eileen Megan

Read Color of Water last fall. It was very moderatly interesting but I struggled to finish. I guess I just do not understand why anyone would have 12 children. Yes, they appear to be well educated but how can you possibly give them the time that they need? I only finished the book because I had started it and frankly do not understand why people think the book is so interesting. I have a friend (in her 60's, as I am) that comes from a family of 9 children. She said it was all her Mother could do to keep them feed and clothed let alone help them with homework, be a homeroom mother, etc.

Laura

Hey, Ginny, we do miss you! Hope Rome is wonderful and that you'll tell us all about it after you get back.

Laura: Happy to have another opinion always. Perhaps the reasons you stated for not liking the book are the reasons I enjoyed it. I doubt this mother (Ruth) worried about feeding and clothing those children, and I'm sure she wasn't a homeroom mother. I remember reading how the children just ate anything at any time - whole jars of peanut butter right out of the jar. Also, several have mentioned that we are not reading the whole story here about the other childrens' lives and how they survived childhood.

This mother was totally different from the mother you and I are accustomed to, but very glad you made your comments.

Laura, I was also happy to see your comments and have you join us in the discussion of this book. It is the different perspectives that we bring to any experience (including the books we read) that makes life interesting.

I think I enjoyed this book because it was a glimpse into a life very foreign to my own in terms of family size and growing up experiences (having been born and living on a midwest farm with only one sibling). Ruth was certainly not the type of Mother that I had as a child, but apparently she was able to overcome all of the circumstances she encountered and to raise some fine children. I wondered as I read how many of her children got into trouble in their teens, as only a couple were mentioned (including the author). Probably each of the children would present a different picture of what their growing up experience involved.

Larry

Dear Laura and others,

I think I enjoyed this book so much, because I felt I learned so much from it. Here was a Mother completely different from my Mom and a different mother than I was. She could have come from a different planet as far as our experiences go. I admired her very much because after having such a terrible childhood she found happiness in her first husband, and then after he died she was able to go on to find another good man, and was happy with him also.

I doubt if they believed in birth control, and looked upon children as a blessing from the Lord. I was impressed with how much she gave them that had nothing to do with wordly goods, and I would have no reason to suspect that the other children are not as admiring of their Mother as James is.

If it is time to rate the book I would give it a 10. It was an inspiration to me, and I would like to meet her some day.

Joan, my rating for this book is a 9. As I have indicated earlier I thought it was a very informative and interesting book but did feel it left a lot unsaid.

Larry

I was delighted with the book and give it a good solid 8.

Best

LJ

Celia sent this in email form, and I am posting it here to keep things all together:


I rate the Color of Water an 8. I enjoyed the book very much but wonder about some of the things like how did Ruth pay for all this education? How did she feed this tremendous family while they were growing up? Did they take well fair? Looking forward to the next book and hearing what the club thinks of it. Celia Browne in Florida

Just finished "Color" and will give it a 9+.. I liked it and would recommend it to my reading friends..

Discrimination is not dead... A Mexican family has moved into our small town (of Swedes and Scots) and the two children in school are frequently told they are the wrong color and called names... It's hard to understand how other children can be so cruel. (I'm sure they learn it at home.  When will the progression stop?)

Pat / IL

I give this book a 9. All the differences in life experiences between Ruth's family and mine actually increase my admiration for what was accomplished. She is a very special woman, and I think her children do her and themselves great credit.

Pat, I am very doubtful that we will ever get to a time when we don't have the prejudice exhibited between people of different skin color, religion, etc. We see this exhibited everywhere in the world with long standing hatred between countries such as India and Pakistan and many other countries. We just had an exhibition of this last week here in Atlanta when a black minister in a downtown neighborhood came out and told his neighborhood that all people except the blacks should move out of the area. It is a real shame that we can't learn to live together and to see the person as an individual and not as a part of something bigger. It is my belief that civil rights has taken several backward steps in this country in the last few years and not for the good.

Larry

My mother was the oldest of 10 children so I grew up around a large family - I was a child during the depression and have so many very happy memories of my childhood at my grandmother's house, I never recall going "without", so, to me, large families are wonderful.

Although the mother in this book may not have fed the children properly, she did feed their souls or spirits very well. I still would like to know more about this remarkable family.

I rate the book 10

Eileen Megan

Pat W., it's really a shame that such prejudice still exists, do you remember this saying?

"There's so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us, it little behooves any of us to talk about the rest of us".

Eileen Megan

I will give this book a solid 9+. This is a remarkable mother bringing up her family in ways we may feel are not quite right. The author wrote the book giving us insight into this "unconventional" family. I am very glad I read it and will recommend it to friends.

I rate the book an 8 as like Larry, I thought there was too much left unsaid.

I will recommend it to friends, and may even read it again.

Sage

Although I was unable to participate in the discussion, I read the book (twice) and have tried to catch up on the comments, so I'll ask permission to add my rating to the others.

I would give the book a 6.5. No, let me be generous and make it a 7.

I have to keep reminding myself that memoirs are written for deeply personal reasons and are published for marketing reasons, and within that framework I can accept McBride's viewpoints and the way in which he selected his material. The book was certainly provocative.

I'm probably as far from being an Orthodox Jew as any Jewish woman of my age can be; but I feel moved to clarify, if not to defend, its philosophy. For those of you whose only acquaintance with Orthodox Judaism comes through this book, let me suggest that you try a light-hearted but more even-handed approach by reading one of Faye Kellerman's detective novels in which one of the central characters is an Orthodox woman.

Orthodox Judaism might be seen as roughly comparable to fundamentalist Christianity in its insistence on strict observance of many small regulations thought to come directly from God through Moses and through the later interpreters. Although many of us would find the rituals and requirements of Orthodox practice intolerably confining, we should be aware that many people find happiness, comfort and beauty in the highly organized structure. At its best, it emphasizes family life, order, cleanliness, the joy of service, love of children, respect for tradition, and hope for the future.

Without wishing to alienate anyone, I'd like to point out that the acknowledged peccadilloes of a number of celebrated and (purportedly) Fundamentalist Christian ministers didn't seem to turn people away from loyalty to their various churches. One seriously flawed man, who was after all a failure as a rabbi and a dismal failure as a husband, father, and businessman, doesn't represent the whole sect.

Ros

Well here I am down to the wire. It's not that I haven't read the book. I certainly have and as a Jewish woman (Reform, which the easiest way to describe, is a kind of Liberal Judaism) found it disturbing, offensive and inaccurate.

Of course I tell myself that here again we have a memoir, and that ties ones hands to a degree. My question to myself has been, do I just stay out of it or enter the fray. I waited until the end of the month so as not to belabor my unhappiness. I would have had to explain too much in too many areas to those of you from different religious backgrounds and it just felt as if I did not want to walk that path.

. I did take some surveys of some of my Jewish friends who had read the book to share their experiences and to see if I was overreacting in my response. There was a wide range of differences. One friend who is a Conservative Jewish woman (somewhere in the middle, but far, far from being Orthodox) who felt that this was one of the most-anti-Semitic pieces of fiction she had read in recent years. Another found it interesting that she (Ruth) chose to blame the negativity in her life on her Jewishness rather than on her family of origin and her early trauma. Still another woman friend actually knows one of the daughters who works in the NYC school system and who reports she is a terrific lady and as some of you suspected, not all of the children have this positive image of life with mother.

Being less charitable than Ros I will give it a shaky 6 . However if our intention was to rate it on it's ability to make the reader becoming involved and affected by it, it would go over the top!

Ros and Helen, Those were very helpful postings to put some perspective into this story. I thought it would be very easy for the author to have a fairly stilted view on religion. Over and over he talked about the reluctance of the Mother to be very talkative when it came to religion. In fact, I thought the last chapter created a very confused situation since the Mother had been portrayed as being anit-Jewish and then had no trouble returning to the house of worship.

Larry

Ros and Helen: Very good and I hope everyone here reads your comments. I think I might have felt as stifled as Ruth was growing up.. My parents were very strict and I was in college, before really being on my own... And I went rather wild and made some poor decisions.. But managed to pull it all together.

I had the feeling that Ruth would have had a hard time conforming to any religion or boundaries her parents might have set...

Pat / IL

Ros and Helen, your insight was ever so revealing. I hadn't even picked up on the Jewish concerns you expressed. All that after being really upset at the knocks on Catholicism in Angela's Ashes and Stones from the River because I'm Catholic.

Realizing that this is a memoir and McBride didn't ever intend to delve into the Jewishness, I'd give it a toned down (do to Ros and Helen) 8.

Di

Dear Roz and Helen and all,

I too found your comments of much interest, and barely gave her religious upbringing and father's occupation of any significance. I just thought of him as an insensitive clod or a man.

The only people I know who read the book loved it, including my Jewish sister in law. I would call her a non practicing Jew.

When we were reading Angela's Ashes some of my Catholic friends didn't like it at all, and if they were Irish also that just made it worse. I loved it. I guess we'll have to read a book that sheds a poor light on atheists for me to see if I feel it is fair. Have you noticed that Malachy, Frank McCourt's brother has a new book on the NY Times best seller list?

Dianne and Fran, I agree with you. The book isn't an indictment nor is it and endorsement of any religion. It's about Ruth needing to escape very specific behaviors and personalities, specifically the faithlessness and cruelty of her father, to find love and strength, which she certainly needed to raise that family. I also wish to know more about them.
I'm Irish Catholic, read Angela's Ashes, wasn't upset. I have a hard time seeing any religion as being "one size fits all" - any time, place, or circumstances. Life is about unique individuals, not "rules and regs."

I must agree that in no way could the book be "Anti-semitic" any more than news stories about wayward priests could be considered anti-catholic; I also respect and admire the restraint of those who did find it offensive in waiting for the conclusion, to comment.

Best

LJ

I admire all of you! Ginny will be so pleased that things worked out so well in her absence. I'm so impressed with the posts that I'm going to make it my business to read the book.

There is to be some down time today if I understand correctly as the 'NEW LOOK' is installed. I'll scoop up the ratings to date and then will come check tomorrow morning for any that you were unable to post today.

See you all in the Tuesdays with Morrie discussion tomorrow!

Later!

Joan

What a JOY to come back from out of the country and see the splendid job you've made of the discussion of this book, with NO discussion leader, just marvelous! Congratulations to you all, you've held up a high standard for subsequent discussions to follow.

Ginny in Awe

This discussion is now closed. Thanks to everyone who participated.