Democracy in America ~ Alexis de Tocqueville: Part Export

What is America? What is an American? What is democracy?

Share your thoughts with us!

"No better study of a nation's institutions and culture than de Tocqueville's Democracy in America has ever been written by a foreign observer; none perhaps so good." (New York Times)

DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA
by Alexis de Tocqueville
"I have sought to discover the evils and the advantages which democracy brings."
"In America, I saw more than America. I sought there the image of democracy itself, with its inclinations, its character, its prejudices, and its passions, in order to learn what we have to fear or to hope from its progress."
"My aim has been to show, by the example of America, that laws, and especially manners, may allow a democratic people to remain free."

Page numbers refer to Heffner's 1956 paperback edition

de Tocqueville on the topic of Manners and Morals:

"Manners are moulded upon the feelings and notions of each individual, rather than upon an ideal model proposed for general imitation." (P249, Some Reflections on American Manners.)

"Every man behaves after his own fashion." (P249, Some Reflections on American Manners.)

"In Democracies, no such thing as a regular code of good breeding can be laid down." (P250, Some Reflections on American Manners.)

"The manners of Democracies, though often full of arrogance, are commonly wanting in dignity." (P248, Some Reflections on American Manners.)

In this Discussion Group we are not examining deTocqueville. We are examining America but in the process constantly referring to deTocqueville's appraisals. Although written 170 years ago, his astute statements are as relevant to democracy now as they were then.
If you think primarily in terms of Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, etc. there are many political forums in Senior Net where you can share those thoughts. Our spectrum and deTocqueville's was much broader. He spoke not only about politics but about art, poetry, the media, religion, men, women, orators, equality, liberty, associations, the law, physical well being, the family, wages, manners, business, science and many many other aspects of democracy.
Were you born in the U.S.? Are you a naturalized American citizen? Are you a foreign born visitor wanting to know more about us? Are you a citizen of another nation who also lives under democratic principles?
Then this is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what deTocqueville and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader: Robby Iadeluca

LINKS TO PAST DISCUSSIONS
---Democracy in America~ by Alexis de Tocqueville Part III~
---Democracy in America~ by Alexis de Tocqueville Part II~
---Democracy in America~ by Alexis de Tocqueville Part I~

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We continue to float down the mainstream of America and we again look out across the landscape, comparing what we see with what deTocqueville observed. It's wintertime and we see one of the coldest winter seasons in many a year. Cold across the entire nation. It's flu season. It's pneumonia time. It's doctor visiting time. And as we check in with the doctors we see patients not only with influenza and pneumonia but many suffering from chronic illnesses of one sort or another as well as physical injuries.

Health appears to be the number one topic on most people's lips. Health in terms of the kind of care physicians are giving. Health in terms of the cost of health insurance. Health in terms of the regulations stipulated by managed care. Health in terms of federal and state laws.

And what of Alexis deTocqueville? He lived in a time when antibiotics were unheard of - when physicians dispensed vile tasting concoctions - when bleeding was still accepted as a medical cure - when women succumbed to the "vapors" and men relied on alcohol as an anesthetic. These were times when the general populace "put up" with physical hardships and died at ages which to us seem young. Alexis deTocqueville, who came from a continent where public health and careful hand washing was rarely considered, was amazed that Americans paid so much attention to their physical being.

How about you? How much attention do you pay toward your own physical being? Do you exercise regularly? Do you insist on nutritious foods daily? Do you get sufficient sleep? How often do you go to your physician for a check-up? How is your mental health? Do the lack of finances prevent you from receiving proper medical care?

Share with us the importance (or lack of importance) of health both in your personal life and the status of health across the nation. This is NOT a new Health Discussion Group. There are many excellent health forums on Senior Net where you can find help for your specific ailments. This is a forum where we are discussing the state of individual and community health as related to Democracy. Everyone has something to say about "health." If you have been a Lurker, we welcome you to start sharing your thoughts. Look at deT's comments above and let us know if you see any of his remarks as being relevant to the America you know today.

Be sure to click onto the Subscribe button below!!

Robby

I am a Canadian and receive as part of my citizenship OHIP. It is my Provincial Health Plan coverage. It covers everything and i mean everything...except for meds. At age 65 my meds will be partially paid for according to my income at the time. Canadians see health coverage as a RIGHT.

Last year our hospitals were full of flu victums. This year most of the Provinces paid for our flu shots and made them available through doctors offices or health clinics. Those with serious illnesses or over 65 went to their Dr. to get theirs and be checked out.

The shots were for the flu they thought would come. Too bad this particular flu was not the one most folks got. The flu is making its rounds but is the milder one. I wouldn't say that to anyone who has had it though.

I go to the Dr. once a year for a check-up and receive a mammogram once every two years. I also went to emergency at the behest of my Dr's office as it was the weekend. They thought i had suffered a stroke and i had a cat scan. I have also been to a clinic up the hill from my house, as i had pneumonia and needed meds. Again my Dr. was not about on the weekend. He has to rest sometime and i seem to pick the wrong time to be unwell.

I hope that is the sort of sketch you wanted Robby.

According to Idris, "Canadians see health coverage as a RIGHT."

Should that be so in all nations? If so, why?

Robby

I don't think that I see it as a RIGHT! Robby. I think I consider it as part of being a Canadian. Just like I consider our National Anthem as part of being a Canadian.

One thing that I would like to make clear is that we Canadians choose our own doctors. So often I have seen it stated on American TV that we are told which doctors we must see. I wanted to see a neurologist other than the one my doctor was going to send me to. I said that I prefered to see a different one and he made the appointment for me.

My neice has recently had surgery in Toronto. Her specialist in London wanted to fuse her right knee. At 30 years old she was not ready to have that done. She extensively researched other treatments and specialists on the internet. Her doctor made an appointment and she has now had 3 surgeries in Toronto. This doctor has given her another chance at life.

Good medical care should be available to all citizens in the United States regardless of income. Health care has become big business in this country, and I don't like it at all. Hospital stay and various medical procedures are determined by insurance companies. Is this right? And is it true that the U.S. is the only industrialized country that does not have national health care? What a negative commentary on this particular democracy.

Mal

"What is a Minority" by Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca can be seen in the February issue of The WREX Pages, now on the World Wide Web. This is a very important essay which shows all of us are a minority. Read it and see. Please click the link below and scroll down the index cover when you access the site.

The WREX Pages

In examinng health care, various terms are being used -- "a right," "part of being a particular nationality," "should be available." Is anything owed us? If so, what and why?

Robby

We pay for it in our taxes Robby. We Canadians pay high taxes. It is a good feeling to know that if someone needs treatment they will get it. I saw a TV program about an American lady with Cancer. She had sold her car and almost all of her furniture. The next thing that would have to go was her home. I find that heartbreaking.

Good health care owed to us or owed to the country? If a nation is to stay strong and well, it stands to reason that the people in that nation must be healthy. Just plain common sense.

Mal

I still see health care as a basic human right within Canada. The Canada Health Act treats it as such. If all are equal then all should be able to get health care as a right. It is also far cheaper to keep folks healthy or treat the problem before it becomes a nightmare. Canadians live longer than Americans for this reason, i believe.

I heard an American proponent of universal health care make the statement that in the US there is socialized medicine for the rich and those with company health care and capitalist health care for the poor. I don't know if this is a true statement or not but it is scarey.

Hospitals, nursing homes and private home care agencies are experiencing the worst staffing shortage in decades, health care policy experts, union officials and industry executives say. The shortages are most acute among low-paid nurses' aides who work in nursing homes and officials have linked the low staffing levels to abuse and neglect of patients. Hospitals complain that there are too few registered nurses, pharmacists and workers who code medical records.

The difficulties in finding and keeping health care workers stem in in large part from a booming economy that has created a surplus of higher-paying, less demanding jobs in other fields.

Robby

Whenever I think of the lack of health care in the USA, I am reminded of my own experience in China years ago. I'd had the flu before I departed on a 6 month teaching assignment. In the cold Chinese winter (often more than -30 below zero), I developed bronchitis and borderline pneumonia. I was hospitalized for 10 days and although some of the equipment was antiquated, the overall care I received was wonderful. When I left the hospital my bill was $17.00. I questioned the amount and was told "you are a guest in our country and have come to China to help our students. We are sorry that you became ill, but this is the correct amount. Is it too much?" Quite different from the "fleecing" of American tourists that is so common abroad.

If the Chinse could afford to take care of me for 10 days (including the medication, tests and food I recieved) for $17.00, certainly the USA could figure out how to make health care afforodable for all residents of the USA. The lack of adequate health care for our seniors, especially, is a national disgrace for this country!

Hi, Robby, thanks for the link.

I can only say that I experienced (as a bystander) the best and the worst of health car. The best was a Laotian immigrant, who had a "worm" - parasite lodged in his brain and who had 2 extensive surgeries from which he recovered marvellouisly. They were not entirely free, and ultimately he could not afford the payments and left to go home. What has happened after that I don't know.

The worst was a lady, who had many problems prior to breaking her hip. The surgery went well, but the recovery was not managed well. Instead informing the family what needed to be done, this lady went into a nursing home - which she paid for herself, because her she still had money and a home. She refused physical therapy because it was painful. She was also on oxygen for a lung condition and her children were told that she is "stubborn" and does not want to help herself. Yet, she wanted to live.

Hip surgeries don't go well without the motivation to make it better. Nobody told the relatives that they could play a big part in their mother's recovery. They went along with the "stubborn" explanation and probably accepted the end as something their mother caused.

There is a steady decline in nursing school enrollment and a growing nursing home population that is sicker, and whose more complex medical problems have transformed the job requirements of the people who care for them. In addition, the entire profession suffers from a major public relations problem, with certain jobs in health care often perceived as thankless occupations rather than labors of love.

How can this be corrected?

Robby

The business of health care has grown to be about one sixth of our economy. Inevitably such a huge amount of money has attracted a lot of companies tying to make a buck from it. It is far more than the doctors and nurses that we think of as delivering the health care to us. Not just the drug companies but suppliers of all sorts of supplies and equipment are huge businesses. The hospitals themselves have been bought up and consolidated into just few huge companies. The doctors and nurses are just small cogs in this huge industry and have long since lost control.

I cannot help but compare it to the way it used to be. When our first child was born in 1955 we had no medical insurance and as a person might do with the first child, we saved the cancelled checks in the tin box which held other keepsakes like newspaper clippings etc. I came across those checks not long ago. One check was to the hospital for $250 for 5 days for mother and child. The other was $100 to the obstetrician. The most noticeable thing was that the $50 per day to the hospital covered everything. There was no itemization of every aspirin or bandaid, and there were no separate bills from the nursery, the pharmacy, the radiologist, the laboratory, or the pathologist who supervised the lab. Just think of the savings in bookkeeping alone!

Now $350 was not pocket change in 1955, it was more than a months earnings, but no matter how much you add for inflation it was still a bargain compared to today for five days of care.

I don't have the answer to the problem of the cost of health care, but I think that as long as we do not look at health care as a single system instead of this conglomeration of separate special interests, each trying to maximize their share of the pie, costs will continue to rise much faster than general inflation.

The late W. E. Deming wrote about why attempting to optimize individual pieces of a system inevitably disoptimizes and may even destroy the larger system of which they are a component. I wonder what he would have made of the health care sytem in this country today?

It is true, isn't it, as Denizen calls to our attention that most of us, as patients, think only of doctors and nurses when we use the term health care. But he reminds us of pharmaceutical companies, suppliers, laboratories, and bookkeepers. Nowadays, of course, we must also think of managed care companies, and HCFA (which is the federal agency handling Medicare), state agencies which handle Medicaid, and Home Health aides. Then there are the holding companies which buy up all the hospitals, etc.

Is all this truly necessary?

Robby

On January 1 2001, the cost of health care in Japan rose for seniors because the Japanese government felt that seniors needed to shoulder a bigger portion of of their medical expenses as the "graying" of Japan would bankrupt the system. As a result, office calls increased from $4.77 per visit to $7.51 based on the current exchange rate. The charge for medicine increased to 10% of cost. My monthly visit for the regularly prescribed medicine cost $7.51 for a month's supply. My last visit to the hospital for laser surgery cost $11.86 for the skin cancer operation. I wonder what the next bill will be in two weeks.

Japan has now added compulsory long term medical care as a required program for those over 40. My first year taxes for that program was $75.27 because as a senior I was forgiven half of the fee the first year, and will have to pay three quarters of the fee the second year and full price the third year and later. I stop paying this tax at age 70.

If I am diagnosed as disabled and need a wheel chair, or elevator in my home, railing on bathtub, toilet or stairs, special equipment for a van, this is what pays for it. Day nurse aide or special help is covered when diagnosed. If I can not live at home because I need more special care than can be provided, they pay for nursing care in the appropriate institution.

I do not know what the future will bring but they are currently discussing changes in the laws to pay the wife/husband to quit work and stay home and take care of me if I become disabled on the grounds that if would be cheaper to pay her to take care of me than to pay for the cost of having health care professionals do the job.

Jere the lurker in Japan

There is a serious interest here in Canada to do more home care. Most folks would rather be home than in a hospital if at all possible. How they will finally manage to co-ordinate Meals on Wheels, Victorian Order of Nurses, Red Cross home care folks and the other things needed to accomplish this i don't know. I sure hope it works out because no one wants to stay in hospital one more day than they have to.

Given the new key hole surgery we can get home...it is just taking care of yourself once you get there.

(

Idris ~ My Mum died of cancer in '87. Nobody told us that we could have help to take care of her at home. She was in a palliative care ward in London (Ontario). This was our very first time to deal with this. Mum died only about 5-6 weeks after being diagnosed. The only thing that I could do to help was to stay at the hospital with her day and night. I could not bear the thought that she could die alone. We were very fortunate as we were all by her side when she died.

My Dad also developed cancer and we had learned that we could have help to take care of him. We kept him in his apartment until a couple of weeks before he died. We were with him constantly, but also had help. When he was near the end we took him to the home of my sister, as she lives in London. That is where his doctors were and all the aides that came to the house. We took care of him, but took advantage of the experienced people that were available to us. He was luckier than Mum as he was not given as many drugs. He knew that we were all there at the end.

My DIL works in a home with disabled adults. She has told her Mum and me that she would never allow us to be put in a 'home'. She said that she would take care of us. Her previous job was in a nursing home, caring for Altzeimer (sp?) patients. She is a caring person, but there is only so much that can be done when you work in these homes.

It now takes approximately six to nine months to fill specialized nursing positions compared with the three to six months it took just a year ago. Many home care services now turn away roughly half the patients who request short shifts of nursing care. And nursing home workers who each used to care for abut seven residents during the day shift are now regularly com;elled to care for 10 or 11 people and as many as 40 during the night shift.

Robby

We learn don't we Kath.

Robby, we have another problem. Lack of young people. Pretty soon the boomers will be getting into the troubles phase of their life and not that many youngsters to grow up and become all of the careworkers we need. That human bubble is going to cause major strains on the system.

KATH - I'm with your daughter-in-law on this issue. Yes, there is only so much that one can do when working in a medical facility as you describe, BUT when it's your own Mum, the daughter can turn the world upside down and inside out; run havoc over ANYONE who gets in her way; and she will fight like hell to make Mum as comfortable and pain free as possible at home. In this instance, I speak from personal experience - just like you did about your own Mum and Dad. Bless you both!

Three years ago my wife passed away, a victim of stomach cancer and medical malpractice on the part of her physicians, our HMO, the hospital into which we entrusted her care, and the collusion of every state agency involved with the protection of the public regarding medical care for the citizens of the state in which I reside. As a result, I have become deeply involved, on a personal basis, as an advocate of correcting what passes for medical care in a nation of citizens who deserve better. Sad to tell, my experience is not uncommon. My wife is only one of hundreds of thousands of innocents whose lives have been sacrificed on the altar of profit for a service and a profession which should never have been made into a profit making venture for big business interests.

Health care is now estimated to be a forty billion-dollar industry. As such, the power it wields is monumental in the area of manipulating legislation to favor its’ own interests and profitability and that power is growing every day with more and more mergers of smaller health care providers into monster conglomerates. Those conglomerates, acting under the protection of congress, as well as individual state legislatures, are making the decisions that determine whether hundreds of thousands of citizens of this nation will live or die. There are no altruistic motives on the intent of those decisions other than profitability despite what you may be lead to believe in their advertising propaganda in every type of media that exists.

Studies have shown that despite the fact that this nation spends more on health care for its’ citizens than all of the other civilized nations combined, the quality of the medical care received by Americans is no more or less than that of most of the smaller countries of the world. Why is that true? We, as a people, were deluded into believing that the privatization of medical care would not only bring down the costs of such care, but would also vastly improve the availability of such care to a greater number of our citizens. A total bald faced lie! Reality is that the exact opposite has come to pass and since silence is often deemed to be acquiescence, the special interests with their big bucks have won once again.

The cost of medical care, particularly the cost of pharmaceutical prescriptions, has sky rocketed through the roof to the point where our citizens are forced to drop medical coverage for themselves and their families and are even traveling to Canada and Mexico to buy their medications which they cannot afford to buy in their own country.

The biggest arrogance of all is that the major health plan companies have decided to drop those who depend on Medicare coverage to partially pay their medical care costs because they feel that Medicare does not pay them enough to continue their facilities and profitability particularly in suburban areas.

This may mean nothing to you if you live in a major metropolitan area. To those who live in communities served only by a small or no hospital center however, they may have to travel for as much as three hours to the nearest major city to have a broken arm set or have a baby delivered. It is an option available to the medical care industry under the law. Unfortunately, those who suffer the pain, and sometimes death associated with that law, have no recourse available to them for equanimity under the law in such instances. Does anybody care, and even more important, is there anything that can be done about it?

There is an alternative and the alternative is “socialized medicine”. If we are a truly democratic nation than good medical care should never be a privilege liberally available to the affluent but denied to those who do not have the ability to pay. In point of fact, in a truly democratic nation, good medical care should be a “right” endowed to each citizen just as applicable as any other described in the Bill of Rights!

There are some who, in reading the statement made in the previous paragraph, will be quick to denounce me as either a communist or a “bleeding heart” leftist liberal. The truth is, I am neither! If I am anything at all, I could probably best be described as an ultimate socialist. There is no question in my mind that there will come a time when enlightenment becomes reality. Citizens of the nation will then wonder at the fact that once upon a time, the government did not play a major leading role in its’ concern for the good health of its’ peoples. The major portion of that responsibility went only to those willing to make a profit at such an enterprise. To my mind that is not a true democracy. In a true democracy, Good Health will be added to the goals of Life, Liberty and The Pursuit Of Happiness.

When that day comes, as I am sure that it will, we can be a democracy greater than anything deTocqueville ever envisioned!

Mike

Mike, i have no idea why certain folks in the US call our system "socialized medicine" it is simply single payer. In other words the Dr. is guaranteed full payment of his bills, as is the hospital, chiropracter (to a certain amount) etc. There is indeed no profit in our system for the Provincial Government Agency, in my case OHIP.

We pay for these services through our taxes. The more you make the more you pay. Sounds reasonable to me if everyone is to be covered and we are all equally protected.

Please read deTocqueville's remark above which starts: "It is not the singular prosperity of the few..." and then compare it to Mike's comments that "In a True Democracy, Good Health will be added to the goals of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

What do you believe would be deT's reaction to seeing the health situation that exists in America today?

Robby

I think the US is the only first world nation not to have proper health care for all, regardless of income. It is a total mystery to me why this is so. I still think it is a RIGHT.

The average age of those in nursing homes has risen sharply in recent years as the population has grown older. Many younger and more robust elderly people have opted for other types of housing, like assisted-living communities, leaving the sickest and most challenging patients to be cared for in nursing homes.

The kind of residents that come in the nursing homes these days are more demented, more aggressive and more old. It is much harder to take care of them. More difficult patients, combined with the added paperwork generated by managed care, has meant tht workers are spread more thinly. A report issued last summer by the federal Health Care Financing Administration found that 54 percent of the country's nursing homes provide less than the minimal two hours a day of nurses' aide care for each patient.

Robby

There seems to be a new movement, with Bush's new administration's approval, to have a partnership with faith-based organizations in aid to the needy. This growing belief makes me uneasy. I can see all kinds of negatives coming from this combined relationship.

One of the potential problems would be the tendency to call it charity which many of us find offensive. I find it offensive as I consider good health care a basic part of a so called "Great Nation". Also faith-based organazations working with the government again put the First Amendment's separation of church and state in jeapordy. In other words, I am against the merger.

Mike, you said exactly what I think and know in a far better way than I could. There are so many horror stories about doctors and hospitals in my life that I wouldn't know where to start to talk about them.

Beginning with polio when I was a kid, there was one thing after another until now. 13 operations, my leg has been broken five times, other broken bones and injuries because of falls all leg-affected polio people take, too much to be interesting.

The problem now with limited income is finding a doctor who will accept a Medicare assignment. With limited money and doctors who don't want to treat me because I'm on Medicare, I don't get to the doctor very often. Without money in my hand when I walk in the door, despite insurance, I am not acceptable as a patient.

That is why, folks, I treated this most recent broken leg and muscle and ligament injury myself. I've paid good money to have a doctor tell me my left leg is useless anyway, and to use my leg brace as a splint for my broken leg. I wasn't about to do that again. Trouble is that when you're your own doctor, there is no prescription for pain. That's okay, I've built up a high tolerance for pain over the years, and I don't have money enough to pay for prescription medicine, anyway.

Kathy, the only kind of faith healing I believe in is what I just described. Faith in myself and a strong belief that I will recover.

Mal

Cathy:--deTocqueville had much to say about religion in America and in the future we will cover this sub-topic. Nevertheless, I understand your point that health and religion are often interrelated.

Robby

After my mother died my father moved into a 'geared to income' apartment building. As they were all older people they watched out for each other. Dad had a car and would drive people shopping or to appointments. If someone wasn't feeling well there was always someone that would cook extra supper and would share it. It wasn't an assisted living building. A doctor lived across the road. He used to visit the building daily and that saved the elderly people from climbing the stairs to his office. They has a 'greengrocer' visit a couple of days a week. That allowed them to just pick out what they needed. Dad would get enough potatoes to last him a week. They could also buy fresh farm eggs. In the supermarkets the packages are too big for one senior living alone. The building was like a village and when Dad died there were many of his friends at his funeral.

The link below will take you to an article in today's online New York Times which discusses some of the things Kathy mentioned.
New York Times article

Robby: Is it too late to add something about racism in America? I have posted almost nothing to this subject because I have had very little experience with it. However, I read something in today'd N.Y.Times that I found most interesting and something that we have not discussed. Let me know if you are inerested. Thanks, Mary

Mary:--It is never too late to post anything here. We try our best to keep to various sub-topics but we are a free floating discussion group. Just imagine in your mind that we are a group of people sitting around in a living room and when someone has a thought, s/he expresses it.

As we slowly float down the mainstream of America, we can still faintly hear the comments about racism and realize that this serious topic never dies. Please share your thought.

Robby

Hospitals are facing thir own labor woes. They have had a difficult time attracting pharmacists in the last two years, largely because of competition from the growing drugstore industry, which has poached many workers and pushed up wages. According to a recent study by the federal Department of Health and Human Services, pharmacy jobs in the retail sector have grown at nearly three times the rate of those in hospitals.

And that hardship for hospitals could worsen, both because of declining enrollment in pharmacy schools and because a recent change by those schools has lengthened the required study to six years from five, delaying the entry of new pharmacists into the market.

Robby

Thanks, Robby. These are not my thoughts . They are from an article in todays N.Y.Times by William Glaberson entitled "Who is a Seminole and Who Gets to Decide?" "FOR generations a little known chapter of America's racial history shows---descendents of escaped slaves have been members of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. Even on the tribal council descendents of slaves have sat alongside of descendents of native people"

Last summer a battle for $66,000,000 in federal funds resulted in Seminoles with native blood voting to strip the people called "Black Seminoles" of tribal membership. The battle now has engendered two federal lawsuits that challenge rhe basic principles of race in America.Who is an Indian?

Gambling revenues and federal land payments have now given Indians something to fight over A major issue has become who is an Indian and who decides?

In the 1840s both blood and black Seminoles were infamously forced out of Florida by the federal government.Now relatives of different colors, living side by side, are accusing one another of racism and getrayal.

The federal government has had a hand in this, as well. When the government, in the early 1900s paid $56,000,000 to the Seminoles as compensation for their land seized in Florida, only those Indians by blood received benefits for such things as school lunches, health care and job training. Today, both bpood and black Indians say they they were simply folowing the decision of the Interior Dept. whose lawyers say they were only advising the tribe as it makes its own decisions. (some dumb mess)

Sounds a little like "how black are you" doesnt it? I had heard a bit about this some time ago but did not realize the matter had reached these proportions. Apparently there is racism to be found in nearly every strata of the human race.Sad.

Mary

Mary;--Sounds somewhat like the differences occurring on various Indian reservations between the Fullbloods and the Mixed.

Robby

The new Bush faith-based ideas make me nervous. How many ways must our country avoid the direct care of its citizens. Fine, fine, great stuff from faith based organizations doing what they do, more power to them. But our government cannot delegate its responsibility to them.

Socialized, single payer, whatever, it's time for full access to medical care for all citizens.

When I was 12, a well meaning orthopedic surgeon "lowered my arches" and locked my ankles on both feet. Since I have a neuromuscular disorder, which he didn't know about and did not investigate to find out about, he virtually took away the use of my feet. Within a few years, there was no more nerve conduction, no more muscle use. With right-angle braces inside my shoes, I went on to lead a more or less normal life---the neuromuscular disorder normally would have begun to slow me down in mid life anyway. So, I've known about the shortcomings of medical care forever, it seems.

More power to you, Mike, on your crusade.

Betty:--When you use the phrase "full access to medical care," what specific details are you referring to?

Robby

Be careful what you wish for, huh?

Well, let's see. Without looking at the delivery end of it (socialized, single payer, HMOs, etc.), what I see as necessary and even possible is what the patient sees. I, the patient, want it all---outpatient, inpatient, prescription drugs, rehab, nursing care, home care, surgical procedures, all tests, mental health, everything. In payment for this, I am willing for my taxes to cover most of it and I am willing to pay what I am able. Based on current income or based on ability to pay measured by income plus. Maybe that involves a set amount a month "insurance" payment plus moderate amounts for each medical visit, each procedure. For people with no income or low income, I'm willing for my taxes to pick up the tab. I'm willing to share the cost but not have the cost be a barrier to my receiving care.

Betty:--When you use the phrase "full access to medical care," what specific details are you referring to?

Robby

Different consumers look for different information about physicians.

Robby

Our family were fortunate. We were born in England and then came to Canada. I have only ever known a life with healthcare for all. My youngest sister was born weighing only 1lb 12oz, with Cerebral Palsy. Fortunately it only affects her legs. Her surgeries and therapy have always been covered by our healthcare. I feel terrible for families that are not as fortunate. Without her surgeries and therapy my sister would not have been able to live the life that she does. She uses a scooter that she puts into her van with a hoist. That way she is able to travel wherever she wants. She is able to use the stairs in her house by sitting on her stair lift.

The average age of nurses is now above 40, and the ratio of nurses over 50 to those in their 20s is expected to reach four to one in the next few years. Some hospitals have been forced to cancel elective surgeries and divert ambulances away from emergency rooms because of the nursing shortage.

Many of the vocational programs for licensed practical nurses have been shelved in recent years, and high school guidance counselors are not encouraging careers in nursing and health support services.

Robby

Federal officials have imposed fines on hundreds of nursing homes across the country and courts have upheld penalties of more than $1,000 a day for each violation. In the most recent fiscal year, the federal government imposed five times as many fines as it had in 1996 -- a total of 1,000 up from 199.

Robby

There is a cancer drug dispensed free in Turkey, and Russia which is not available here unless you can pay! They work out a set amount for therapy for cancer per patient. If you exceed that you have to pay! This only came to light on a current affairs program a few months ago. I believe this as my husband got very inadequate management of his cancer no chemo after surgery as they were doing in the States at the time. The cancer drug I am talking about prolongs life in breast cancer and some other cancers. Some of our Lions clubs are donating the money for those who cannot pay. Many people in NZ just cannot afford med insurance. If you are on a salary our wages are very poor compared to say Australia or the UK. So in some ways we are not that much better than the USA except we do not pay for emergency surgeries or medical care. We pay our doctors for ordinary surgery visits and for Specialists. We pay more than Australians do. I am on a fairly low income so the state subsidises 30% of my costs for the doctor but I pay 70% so it still is quite a burden if you need more than one doctors visit in a month. Not all grass is greener on the other side of the fence!

Carolyn

Carolyn:--Somehow I had thought that the health/medical situation was much better in New Zealand than you described. As we discuss what governments and doctors do for us and look at New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and the United States, there seems to be a spectrum.

A topic which is rising to the top in the United States is "medical privacy." New rules, which go into effect in two years, will require doctors and hospitals to get written consent from patients before disclosing medical information in either written, electronic or oral communication. The rules govern virtually every doctor, hospital, pharmacy and health insurance plan in the nation.

Patients can sign a single consent form in their first visit to a doctor or hospital that would authorize routine future disclosures for the purpose of their medical treatment or payment of insurance claims. But disclosures for other purposes -- for example, to employers making personnel decisions or to banks or insurance companies -- will require separate consents.

Any opinions or experiences here regarding privacy (or lack of privacy) of medical records?

Robby

I would think it would be OK. If we have nothing to hide we don't need to worry. In Canada there is a great deal of welfare fraud. At one time there was talk of fingerprinting welfare recipients to try to halt it. WOW!! What a fuss people kicked up. Personally I wouldn't mind having my fingerprints taken for identification purposes. We have photos on our drivers licence, passports and health cards, so why would anyone object to fingerprints?

Not much welfare fraud now, Kiwi Lady. We have moved to an almost American workfare system. The biggest problem is affordable housing in places like Toronto with a less than 1% vacancy rate and condos going up everywhere.

My daughter has a tiny studio apartment right downtown in a secure building. As she is a minimalist the lack of space doesn't bother her. She does not have to use transit to get to work as she can walk. This is not only good for her but it helps to control costs. She hates public transportation. She pays a little over $800.oo Canadian per month.

Our youngest son was paying about $800 for a tiny basement apartment in Toronto Idris.

I think it is good that they are pushing for workfare. The welfare fraud was caused by sloppy work. Much of it was when people were claiming under different names and addresses. Even for children they didn't have. Here is a link for Queen's Park Welfare Fraud.

The new privacy rules mentioned earlier give consumers valuable new rights to inspect their medical records, to request correction of errors and to receive a list of disclosures that have been made for purposes unrelated to treatment and payment.

The rules provide for civil and criminal penalties, but do not create a right for patients to sue.

Do you folks here see this as adequate protection?

Robby

There is a danger in allowing even limited access to medical records if a person was suffering from a mental illness. Although the illness may be totally under control and the patient leading a normal lifestyle. If an employer was to be able to access medical information about that patient it may affect drastically their chances of employment or if already employed chances of promotion. Unfortunately there still persists the ignorant theory that all people suffering mental illnesses are potential axe murderers! Just a thought!

Carolyn

The American Civil Liberties Union criticizes the medical privacy rules for allowing the release of information to law enforcement officials on the basis of administrative subpoenas or other orders that do not require judicial review. That element may need tightening in future years. But on balance, the rules give patients enormous power to control the release of their own medical information.

Robby

I think the need for privacy would largely go away with a single payer system. The big worry now is that if there is any sort of chronic condition, it would be difficult or impossible to obtain insurance or to change jobs. I think millions of Americans are stuck in their present jobs because of this and that amounts to a kind of involuntary servitude.

Even worse, the need for privacy precludes the new technological possibility of having all our medical history in a national database where it could follow us from doctor to doctor, from state to state and be accessible instantly us and any medical practitioner we visited. Software could be written to compare the latest test results with our own unique history instead of the broad population ranges and even look for patterns and give tentative diagnoses. Such a database open to researchers could also be a boon.

But that is just a pipe dream of mine. All those special interests, remember? Special interests have the money to spend to prevent things that could promote the general welfare.

“ A topic which is rising to the top in the United States is “Medical Privacy” New rules which will go into effect in two years, will require doctors and hospitals to get written consent from patients before disclosing medical information in either written, electronic or oral information. The rules govern every doctor, hospital, pharmacy and health insurance plan in the nation” ---robert b. iadeluca.

The necessity for the proposed legislation will come into effect because, heretofore, the medical care industry has felt free to use and distribute this information with no regard for any consequences to the patient community. They view this intrusion into their patient records as unfair and deleterious to their business operations. As an example of sheer arrogance on the part of any industry in this country, this is without parallel for the following reasons.

A report issued by the Institute Of Medicine, a component part of the National Academy Of Sciences, quotes studies estimating that at least 40,000 and perhaps as many as 98,000 hospitalized Americans die every year from medical malpractice. A “culture of secrecy” so surrounds the medical mistakes contributing to that malpractice that every component part of the health care profession, as well as the government regulatory agencies, both federal and state, which are supposedly responsible for oversight, have taken steps to insure that such information is hidden from the public because of the potential threat of lawsuits.

As a typical example, when I appeared before the State Board Of Medical Examiners to file a report which detailed my wife’s passing due to medical malpractice, I was forbidden to identify her physicians, the hospital in which she passed away, or any other medical entity who played a role in her death. In addition, sections of her medical records were “blacked out” to conceal any information, which, I must assume, would have indicated medical errors. The legality for the justification of such action is based on what is always identified as the “laws of confidentiality”. That is a code name for any information, the use of which, would assist a plaintiff in initiating a law suit against those responsible for the medical malpractice issues.

But what is even more important, is the fact that in the rare instances when Physicians are actually charged and found guilty of gross medical malpractice to the point of being barred from practicing in the state where the malpractice was committed, that information is also hidden from the public. Those Physicians are then free to move to other states and continue to practice medicine on unknowing patients as they have in the state in which I reside.

This could be prevented if there were a national database that would provide information to patients desiring to check on the professional background of their physicians and any malpractice actions, disbarments, or disciplinary actions that may have been taken against them.

It may come as a shock to many of you to discover that, in fact, there is such a national database with disciplinary files on over 130,000 doctors and dentists which contains reams of such information collected over the past ten years including state discipline, hospital discipline and malpractice payments. The name of the program is The National Practitioner Data Bank, which was established by an act of Congress which is publicly funded, but which the public has never been allowed to use. Right from the beginning, the National Practitioner Data Bank has been closed to the very consumers it is supposed to protect. By definition of an act of Congress those records are only intended for hospitals, HMO’s and the various state medical boards.

The American Medical Association, the nation’s largest and most powerful doctors group, has consistently fought against public disclosure of such information on the grounds that it is not information that the public could understand and use in a relevant manner, to make good, informed decisions on whether a physician is competent or not.

So there you have it folks! The Great American Medical Records Rip-off. The same medical care industry that feels that they should have free access to all of your private medical records, has taken steps and a great deal of soft money to insure that you have absolutely no access to their records.

The travesty of justice and fairness that is being perpetrated here is compounded by the fact that you all are paying for it, not only in money, but in human lives which will have been needlessly sacrificed to protect the sanctity of a profession which, more and more, does not deserve to be identified as such.

Mike

Just a little note here. In regard to owning your own medical records, which you do. I recently changed PCP's for several reasons. On my last bill from the first doctor, was a charge for sending my records to my new doctor. This is just greed!, greed, greed! I have moved many times in the US and never, never, never had to pay a doctor for transferring my records. The last time was from a place where I had many medical problems. The file looked like a book and there was NO CHARGE to transfer my records! I have told my old doctor's office that I will not be paying the charge and also informed my new doctor about this practice. According to the person at the office, they have always charged for this transfer. I suggested that they warn all their new patients but then that might be considered a threat to the new patient. Medicine and all its environs have become simple profit making machines and little thought is given to the patients in many instances. Something has to give here, and I am beginning to think that Canada's and the UK's systems are not all that bad. We definitely need to corral the AMA who decides every year how many applications for med school will be honored. They keep the medical system totally under their control.

In Ontario a Dr. culls a file before sending it to the next Dr. The culls are mainly hand written notes to himself, not lab reports or other important info. The Dr. receives $25.00, as a fee to transfer the info.

One of the aspects of general availability of care that I'm not sure was mentioned in this thread of discussion was Preventive, rather than Remedial care. I've always felt that the same type of foundation was the basis for the creation of HMO-type health insurance plans.

I believe it's pretty stupid to accept the very high costs of remedial care, after-the-fact, while not attending to the very low costs of preventive care. HMOs, no matter how negative they might be otherwise, do offer preventive care that tends to bring down the costs of future remedial care requirements, if any.

How many people in the US negate annual physicals because they cannot afford it (even for their children), and then end up, at super-high public cost, undergoing remedial treatment for advanced disease or medical problems?

The same approach applies to generally-available health care at the national level. Given just a basic plan that every American can depend upon (call it National Health Care if necessary) would assure that the most basic forms of treatment and preventive care are undertaken on a semi-annual or annual basis at lower cost. Again, excluding this type of basic care availability for profit sake, while then accepting (for emotional reasons) follow-on remedial care costs is just plain stupid, and should be unacceptable to the society.

What is the true beef for not offering those without insurance (or everybody, then, if it makes sense) a basic set of National Standard Basic Preventive Care? The answer is probably money, which usually measures most American value-sets.

I'm truly offended having to pay more federal taxes to support very high cost remedial care (usually only at Publically Supported hospitals), while the health care industry isn't given the (national financial) vehicles to provide very low cost preventive care (even a simple annual physical and basic treatment at time of physical) without getting wrapped around the profit issue.

I realize that most of you here know this but in the interest of full disclosure as we talk about health providers, I want to notify everyone that I am a Clinical Psychologist licensed to practice in the Commonwealth of Virginia. This means that I see the picture from both sides - as a consumer of medical care and as someone who provides it. This does not mean that I agree with everything that is going on in this nation regarding this topic but I want everyone to know where I'm coming from.

Denizen points out the connection between one's occupation and health care -- that many of those who no longer work may lose their health insurance. Denizen share with us his "pipe dream" wherein technology can help us in terms of "following us from doctor to doctor" and being "instantly accessible" to a practitioner who is looking for patterns. His concern, however, is that the need for privacy "precludes this possibility."

Mike gives us the other side of the coin wherein "the medical care industry has felt free to use and distribute this information with no regard for any consequences to the patient community." "Aye, there's the rub." How to balance the benefits of sharing information with the costs (emotional and otherwise) of sharing information.

Mike is so correct about "information hidden from the public because of the potential threat of lawsuits." In my own case, for example, I pay high premiums for an annual liability coverage of $2 million and $6 million. This means $2 million for each incident and $6 million aggregate. It is high because I hold clinical privileges at the local hospital and the hospital requires it but I would keep it high even if I was not connected with the hospital.

So many things can go wrong. Physicians such as Obstetrician/Gynecologists and Brain Surgeons and others pay high premiums and one might say that Clinical Psychologists don't have this problem. Our profession is not a "hands-on" one. But pause a moment. Ours is the only profession where the door shuts, everything is confidential, and there is no one in my office except my patient and me. What if it is a woman and what if she claims that I took advantage of her sexually? How can I prove otherwise? Even if I am innocent she can sue me and I have nothing to protect me except my reputation which I guard zealously. In the community where I live and work, I am well known and I rely upon my other patients, my colleagues, and my fellow residents to speak up for me if need be.

Yes, doctors are deathly afraid of law suits but this does not, of course, change the fact brought up by Mike that there is a "cult of secrecy" in some areas and by some doctors (not all) to hide medical mistakes. As I said earlier, I see both sides and hope that everyone here (including you lurkers) will give us your thoughts on this matter.

Isn't the goal to meet what deTocqueville said 170 years ago in his quote above starting; "The object is to secure...?"

Robby

Health care is not an option but a necessity. The goal should be to provide it for everyone. I would like to point out that even when it is offered free people do not always take advantage of it or mis use it. My one daughter in law is a registered dietician and for a time worked with social services. I believe it was the WIC program.The mothers who were using this program had to come in and report on the care of their children. The diet of the children was very important and the mothers were queried as to whether the child had a nutrious one. The children's health care was provided free to the mother. My DIl left this field because she found that often the mother would take a child to a doctor, be given medicine free and then would not give it to the child ...the child then would end up in ER and usually required hospitilization. It was a very sad situation. While I believe we should have health care for everyone, free for those that cant pay and a mininum for those who can based on their income (I guess I am not sure what is fair) we also have to recognize the program will be abused and that will drive up the cost of providing it.. do we do like the law does now? Make not wearing a seat belt illegal? Deny people if they dont meet their appointments? If people were perfect we would have no problem..I have a very competent doctor,he is still young since I was one of his first patients years ago. He was in an HMO for awhile but opted out, was in a practice with other doctors and again opted out because he wants to give good health care. He allows time to ask all the questions one might have, offers alternative suggestions if you feel uneasy about a treatment, treats you as an intelligent adult. He wants to make a good living for his family but what I see is he first and foremost wants to be a good doctor. A USAF military doctor at the hospital in France was such an inefficient doctor he was forced out...he resented the fact that he had to serve so many years to repay his training in the service..and after each day made a list of the number of patients he saw and what he would have charged them and then bitterly denounced the situation at the OCLUB in the evening. Until we have perfect doctors treating perfect people we will always have problems. ONE thing I think is absolutely imperative is the right of the patient to see the doctor of choice. Over the years I have changed doctors when I found the one I was seeing was not the kind of doctor I wished to treat me. The doctor I see now mails to all new patients a letter saying that health care is a partnership. He encourages his patients to share their concerns about any treatment. That is what I see as an ideal situation. I think I just used up a dollars worth of opinion.... anna in VA

Referring to Ann's comment about being charged by a doctor for sending her records to another doctor. I have never heard of this. I regularly send records of patients of mine to another doctor. I should add (and this is important!) that I ask the patient if this is OK with him/her and, if so I ask the patient to sign a form allowing me to pass this info on. I then fax this signed form to the other doctor. If the answer is "no," I do not pass the info on. I do not charge for this transaction. I consider it an important component of my patient's health care.

I often receive information regarding a specific patient from another doctor and, to the best of my knowledge, they are charged for this. This is where it is most important for the patient to be assertive -- saying, for example, "I do not expect to be charged for this." Very often doctors complain (and rightly so in many cases) that the patient does not speak up. True, the patient is often rushed in and out in a 15-minute period but this should not prevent the patient from speaking his/her piece.

Idris tells us that her doctor charges $25 for transferring such info. If this is becoming common procedure, it has not yet reached my neck of the woods, at least not to my knowledge.

Gary brings up a most important point, ie "preventive rather than remedial care." When I was very young a story often repeated (I have no idea of the truthfulness) was that in China patients paid their doctors who kept them healthy and did not pay them if they became sick. This is probably apocryphal. Gary suggests a "National Health Care" where patients would regularly visit their physicians for check-ups and would simultaneously receive any needed basic form of treatment and preventive care. But doesn't this rely upon the patient taking on the responsibility of making regular visits? Somewhat they way dentists work?

Great thoughts being interchanged here!

Robby

They will not send your files on unless they get a signed statement from you. At least that is my experience here in Ontario. I have had to go through this a few times as one Dr. retired and one went to Toronto. In each case i had to go in and give my permission for the files to be transfered to a new Dr. of my choice.

I have used the health center in our village for 30 years, so have not had to have my files transfered. When I have seen new specialists I have been given an envelope containing X-rays to give to the specialist.

Our clinic is associated with the university. I choose not to be seen by a different student each time, but prefer to be seen by my own doctor.

When I was growing up in England, during the war, they practiced preventative medicine. Children were vaccinated against Diptheria and there was a clinic where we could get things to keep children healthy. We got orange juice concentrate, Marmite (a concentrated yeast extract rich in B vitamins) and baby formula. There were probably other things, but I just remember them (CRS). When I was married the clinic was where I went to be checked out by the midwife and get my vitamins. Once the baby was born I took the babies there to be weighed and checked out.

When my daughter was first born we had well-baby clinics too. A great idea because there were always questions to ask that didn't seem big enough for a Dr.'s attention between visits.

All children in Ontario get their shots for free, so that sort of gives them a good start.

My son was just on the borderline when he was born. He was wanting to be born early and it was best he come two weeks early. The Victorian Order of Nurses provided a nurse to come and weight him twice weekly until he got to 6 1/2 lbs. It was really wonderful to have someone come and just chat and check his weight. Too bad they don't do that now.

The VON is wonderful Idris. My Grandad was a diabetic and had leg ulcers for as long as I can remember. The VON came to the house daily and changed the dressings.

The well baby clinics are great. It saves the time of the doctors. With my first son I developed Eclampsia at the end. When my blood pressure was checked at the clinic I was sent straight to my doctor.

In New Zealand because of our statutes it is almost impossible to sue a medical Professional. The best we can do is to instigate a case for disgraceful conduct and it is very hard to do. In multiple offences we have a Commission of Inquiry and several terrible scandals have emerged in the last two years. The medical profession here close ranks often and there have been cases where pages from files have disappeared. It is very hard to get a physician to testify against another. The two Commissions of Inquiry we have had recently - one against a Pathologist and one against a Gynaecologist have brought out some terrifying facts where gross negligence has caused deaths. (In the case of the Pathologist multiple deaths from negligence in reading cervical screening slides!)

I think that there must be accountablity and honesty within the Medical Profession it has got to the stage here where no one is trusting their test results and looking sideways at their Specialist Doctors we have been through so much these past two years.

Carolyn

As I said earlier, this "privacy" bit has two sides. Some experts worry that health plans may be discouraged from disclosing pertinent data to other medical professionals by the requirement to release only "minimum necessary" information.

The biggest problem for the health plans is uniformity. The new rules set a national minimum standard but do not override stricter state laws limiting disclosure of information about such conditions as AIDS, cancer and mental illness. That will leave health plans the costly task of meeting many different standards, potentially driving up premiums that ae already soaring. The lack of uniformity is not the administration's fault. Only Congress can override state rules.

Robby

There is a struggle between privacy advocates and the health care industry, which will take its case to the new administration and to Congress. The president of the Health Care Leadership Council, an association of 50 chief executives from large health care companies, said: "We are seeking a more balanced approach to protectiang privacy." According to one of the members of Congress: "Requiring written consent is crucial to giving patients meaningful control over the most intimate details of their lives."

The new rules cover online pharmacies but do not cover other Web sites that dispense health information over the internet and collect data on the browsing habits of consumers. The rules limit companies' ability to obtain sensitive medical information for the purpose of marketing.

Robby

Robby:

With all due respect for your valid opinion and comments, I must state the following:

Exactly what is wrong with disclosing only “minimum necessary information” by health plans to other medical professionals? Does this not encompass “pertinent data”? I for one fail to see any justification for concern on the part of health plans in this area. What is it that I am missing here?

I am not of the opinion that the biggest problem for the health plans is uniformity. A national minimum standard, as established by the federal government, is exactly that: “a minimum standard”. The stricter state laws you mention concerning the disclosure of information about AIDS, cancer and mental illness can easily be made to be uniform by incorporating their requirements into the national minimum standard. That, not uniformity would be the real biggest problem for the health plans. Of course that would wipe out the costly task of meeting many different standards which supposedly would, in turn, drive up the cost of soaring premiums.

I must state that I am always intrigued, but not amused, at the constant threat of driving up the cost of premiums of health care plans to the consumer every time any hint of exercising any type of reform or control over the plans is proposed. It is an old threat, which has outworn its capacity to invoke fear in the minds of consumers and even congress itself. The cost of premiums has, is and will always be rising unmercifully, not because of the initiation of reforms or controls but because of the never-ending, seemingly insatiable demand for higher demonstrable profits.

Health care for profit does not work and will not serve the best interests of the totality of people of this nation. That is a confirmed fact, the evidence for which is clearly visible, not only in this democracy, but in many of the civilized nations of the world. It was a mistake that needs to be corrected. I take some comfort in the hope that eventually, when the higher and higher cost of premiums prices the “health care for profit” industry out of existence, cooler heads will prevail and institute a system of national health care which will benefit all of the citizens of our democracy, not just the affluent.

Mike

Hear Hear ! For all the people in all countries !

Carolyn

Mike believes strongly that Health care for profit does not work and will not serve the best interests of the totality of people. His hope is that cooler heads will institute a system of national health care which will benefit all of the citizens of our democracy, not just the affluent.

How does this compare with deTocqueville's comment above beginning "It is not the singular prosperity..." made 170 years ago?

Robby

This is not meant to be a mean spirited post, but it may sound like it. I am trying to be honest and tell you what i really think.

Who are the folks who put the label "socialized medicine" on the sort of plans that Canada and other first world nations have?

Who are the folks who are left out of the for profit system you have in the US? I would suggest that those who are left out are the rights seekers in your society. You know who they are as well as i do. They are the old, the very young, people of colour in most cases, people with life long health problems, those with mental or emtional problems, the homeless or poor.

In my mind when i hear the phrase "socialized medicine" i hear the haves and those in power saying...why should we support that lot of losers. Johnathan Swift was good at writing about this "us" and "them" thing. I'm not. How is it that your country can afford bombs to kill us all but not medical care for all of your citizens? Where are your priorities as a nation? Do you hate your "them" so much. Are they not part of you? Are they not human too? Do they not bleed, die in pain, live in hopelessness and fear?

Surely some of you must look at what lack of medical coverage means and say to yourself, as Lear did...oh, i have paid little heed to this...or something to that effect.

Are the haves so worried that their dollars will end up not in the pockets of rich HMO's but into equal health care for those they want separate from themselves.

Surely the measure of a great nation is not how many bombs it has but how it treats those less fortunate or of a different colour. Think about it... you are the only first world nation without proper health care to cover all of its citizens.

Enough of my ranting, but i had to get this off my chest.

Idris reminds us that "Surely the measure of a great nation is not how many bombs it has but how it treats those less fortunate." Idris can look at us objectively from another nation and sees those being ignored as "the old, the very young, people of colour in most cases, people with life long health problems, those with mental or emotional problems, the homeless and the poor." That's a powerful indictment!! Are we in America guilty of that and, if so, what are we doing about it?

Robby

You will continue to hide behind the label "socialized medicine" and do nothing. You will elect those who say they will provide "universal care" and then make it so expensive by including everything but the kitchen sink that it will never pass. I see this as a really miserable game your politicians are playing. They don't give a darn about "those" folks and i think you know it.

What are you afraid of???? Are you afraid that some poor kid may actually get proper care? Are you afraid that you will have to share a room in a hospital with someone who is very poor and very sick?

We were previously talking about racism. Maybe the worst racism is denying some folks medical care and not giving a damn about them. Maybe you have to wake up and smell the coffee. Maybe you have to stop thinking you are the greatest nation on earth and see yourselves for what you are...a nation that is for the haves and not the have nots.

If you can afford all of those bombs and weapons of war, you can afford health care for ALL of your citizens. At least stop speaking code.

Idris has the right, as does any citizen of America or any other nation, to give an opinion about the "workings" of this nation. Alexis deTocqueville, himself, looked at the "evils" as well as the advantages of America.

Every single individual, not only in the United States but in the world, is vitally interested in his own health.

Where are we going wrong? Is the subject here bigger than health? deT spoke not only about the laws of a democracy but its manners. What are we missing?

Robby

Visits to emergency rooms grew about 3 percent a year from 1997 to 1999 and have risen 6 to 8 percent in the last year, a figure that is expected to continue. The reasons are the lack of access to primary care doctors among the poorest Americans and a large number of Americans who are without insurance, often because of higher premiums.

Uninsured patients have little choice but to get even the most routine care in emergency rooms, which by law must treat every patient who shows up. According to Census Bureau figures, the number of uninsured Americans rose by an average of more than a million a year from 1987 to 1998.

Robby

In Canada we have local 'walk in clinics' that are open when the doctor's offices are closed. That prevents unecessary visits to the emergency rooms. There are doctors on duty and they write prescriptions if needed.

Idris is right on every single count. We don't have a health care problem in this country; we have a sociological one, and 50% of the voters in the recent election decided that's okay. Labelling national health care with that dirty word,"socialism", is enough to ensure that nothing will change. What's the matter with this conservative, fearful country, anyway? I said before that a healthy, strong nation is a nation full of healthy people. Is survival for the fittest (spell that moneyed) and elimination of the poor, the aged and minorities the credo here? What kind of democratic republic is this, anyway?

Mal

Mal, for goodness sakes don't give into the political party thing. Both of these parties are playing games with your health care needs. Don't let the sob's get away with this old blame game of dodge ball. That is how they get away with this nonsence.

It is far cheaper per capita to cover all of us in Canada, than it is in the US. We live longer. Our babies are healthier and mother's in better condition as they get care from the time they know they are preggers.

Why should any citizen be made to feel less and go to a crowded emerg? Why can't they have their own Dr. who sees them everytime. Why should some be made to beg for less than adequate care?

Are all men equal or just some????

How is it that deToqueville, a Frenchman, was so astute to see the flaws in America's version of democracy with more vision that many of our current experts on almost any subject. His kind of wisdom seems to be extinct today. I watch C-Span alot and am exposed to weak bureaucrats all the time. I see through them - I think easily, but deToqueville cut through bureacratic and empty rhetoric with much precisison for his time.

It angers me to see the average U.S. citizen swallow the self-serving statements made by most of our politians in telling why Health Care of America would become socialized medicine. Well, if providing health care for the many instead of just the few, I say: Let it be!

I am depressed at the rate our quality of life depends upon such greedy mentalities as we now seem to support. The masses, that damned group of people - such as you and I, are not being well served by democracy as is practiced today.

Perhaps the answer to Cathy's question lies in the very fact that deTocqueville came from another nation. We here in America might, as Idris says, keep looking for a "political" solution rather than a "health" solution. We may be too close to ourselves. As the old adage says: "We can't see the forest for the trees."

Robby

Idris and I can 'SEE' as we are from another nation. We can see that our system is much better for all Canadians than your system is for all Americans. But if we can see it as outsiders why are Americans not able to see that the Canadian system is better? You also are looking at us from a different nation. Perhaps you all believe your politicians that we are socialists.

Many primary care clinics are having trouble staying afloat and new clinics are not opening as quickly as hoped. The costs of running the clinics have started to exceed revenues since government funding has been reduced, managed care has become dominant and many patients have moved off Medicaid as a result of welfare reform. Doctors routinely complain that they are reimbursed in the area of, say, $12 for a pediatric visit.

Many hospitals that run their own clinics do so at a loss. Says the chef executive officer of one public hospital: "The reimbursement in primary care is pathetic. It really frustrates us because we would like to be aggressive about prevention and early intervention, but the financing doesn't work."

Robby

What is causing the rising cost of health care? Do I dare suggest That it is the greed of the health conglomerate? They have their own excuses for the poor services being rendered. It is called "buck passing"! Grrrrrrrrrr!

As long as both of your parties have their hands in the pockets of the HMO'S for elections funding you are not going to change the system.

I wouldn't want to listen to their stupid rhetoric. I would want action and that you don't get. The old scare thing of the cold war days has you all petrified. Ohhhhhhhhhh socialism. It is SINGLE PAYER!!!!!!!!!

Your two parties play the game and you are the losers. They don't have any intention of saying no to the HMO's or any other group that lines their pockets to get elected. It is all political rhetoric.

OK, America!! You have heard it from the Canadians.

Your thoughts?

Since NZ had the GREAT privatisation of everything except for basic health care, it has turned into a polarised nation too! The haves and the have nots. The Haves do not want to pay a little more tax on their millions! "Why should we have to support the dregs of society!" But because we have GST on everything it is "the dregs of society" who are paying a larger percentage of their income on tax! It is very sad but true the policy of Laissez Faire is becoming more and more common all over the world! "Let them eat cake!" (Marie Antoinette prior to the French Revolution about the starving peasants!)

There is more caring needed in the world about our fellow man!

Carolyn

As Carolyn says, is it privatization which is causing polarization? And does that move on toward the "let them eat cake" philosophy? Is national health care the only answer?

Robby

The Tommy Douglas Institute is a think tank. On the now oft heard remark to move to a two tier health system we find out that it is the very corporations that will make money if we do so that is ringing the alarm that it is necessary. Bless those loverly American Medical rip off artists who eye our market and say......why not?

We are still heads above you folks in terms of health care and heaven help the government that wants to diddle with it.

I also noticed that the bill to get you folks in on our cheaper meds was turned down by a democrat. Woooooo Why say you? Because they may not be safe for you poor souls. Ahhhhhhh

The fact is these are your stupid meds. We buy them from you but we have the common good sense to put controls on just how much profit a corporation can make on pills.

Gives you reason to pause and think doesn't it???????

According to the director of the Center for Health and Public Service Research at New York University: "Patients are not happy with the primary care delivery system. The hours are not good, waits are too long, and the people are rude. We have designed a health care delivery system more or less for the convenience of the system not the patients."

Often even people who have doctors prefer to use the emergency room. Says one patient: "It is easier than talking to two or three nurses on the phone who then decide whether you get to talk to a doctor or not. You know the E.R. is there, that the doctor is there. In health care, it is the one thing the public knows they can count on."

Robby

Robby, we have a number of medical clinics. If your Dr. is not available, the hour late or it is the weekend you can go to the clinic. It is not high tech. There is always a pharmacy in the building or vacinity and you can have blood work done there.

These are the places we go if we are stuck. Some people insist on going to the emerg when they shouldn't and of course they can't be turned away. Emerg is always busy with serious problems like strokes and heart attacks so i don't go unless my Dr. orders me there. I go to the clinic and within an hour i'm back home.

Emerg is a terribly expensive way to give health care. It is for emergencies not having a bad cold you might think is pneumonia.

Someone I think posted that their time seeing the doctor is at least 15 minutes. A report issued by the Japanese government here stated that the time spent with the doctor in the university hospital (teaching hospital) averaged 5-6 minutes with the maximum length at ten minutes.

Do we need more time? I have found the time I spent adequate but the next time I go I will time the visit.

My doctor never hurries me in and out. When I make an appointment they will ask what it is for. If it is just to get a repeat on a prescription the visit is short. If they know ahead that it will be a longer visit they schedule appointments to fit it in. I have never been seen in just 5-6 minutes as the doctor checks that the medications don't need adjusting.

Kath, if they don't spend the time then people get sick with the meds. They forget what you've already been subscribed, they are in such a hurry. Who needs that? I never feel rushed either.

As we live in a village Idris (about 2000 in the area) our village pharmacist even recognises your voice when you call. He knows all of our meds and keeps an eye on them.

Many hospitals are actually marketing their emergency departments. At Oakwood Hospital and Medical Center in Dearborn, Mich., patients are given free movie passes if they have to wait more than 30 minutes, even as volume has increased. At Sinai Hospital of Baltimore, patients are assigned to advocates who help them cope with nonmedical problems, like finding family members or even someone to walk the dog.

To further complicate matters, for years it was all but unheard of in most cities for a hospitl to regularly hang out a "No Vacancy" sign for ambulance crews. But in recent months, in cities from Boston to San Francisco, Phoenis to Denver, it has become common, to the alarm of doctors, paramedics and patients.

Robby

From listening to McNeil's News Hour it would appear that the President's interum prescription plan is in trouble. Now does that surprise you?

He wants to go ahead to provide for the most needy Seniors with incomes up to $14,000. Oh the excuses we will hear. Hubby and i laughed because you are all going to swallow the reasons why this isn't good.

Nothing that has ever been put out to the private sector has become cheaper! Saw one of your current affairs programs is it the Jim Lehrman show? He was talking about the municipalities like LA who retail their own power. Power was half the price on average than in the rest of California. Looking at the cost of your healthcare per procedure (who is fleecing who!)it is really ridiculous. Since our power was privatized it has risen 30%. Our telephones have gone up and service is much less efficient if your phone goes out it has been known to take more than a week to fix the fault. When it was Govt owned it was kept to a 24 hour max turn around and probably less than that from memory. What fools we are to have been sucked in by those who are supposedly looking after our interests!

The Private power companies here are not doing maintenance like they should be (profit driven). Remember the weeks of blackout we had in our CBD a few years ago in Auckland. People went bust in that blackout! No real compensation was paid and the govt inquiry did little more than slap the power company with a wet bus ticket!

Government departments or municipalities can run to a profit in utilities our telecom always did and the profit went back in to the countrys coffers! The lines were maintained too! We must be really greedy as shareholders and really thick as taxpayers to want our essential services sold often to foreign corporations. We own nothing now and we are so hard up that we can hardly afford essential services. It is a joke, a country of 3.9 million people should have kept the assets. We were comfortably off and now we have the rich and the poor and nothing much in between. I have seen it all in my lifetime and the efficiency thing under private ownership and the competition thing is a load of codswallop! They all put prices up and employ less people to give the shareholders big returns.

Carolyn

Crews generally go only to hospitals they know will take them. Cities generally have plans to handle what happens when too many hospitals go on diversion. They worry openly that patient care suffers because of the extra minutes spent in ambulances and because of the emergency room crowding that causes the diversions in the first place. Their biggest worry seems to this: If it is like this now, what will happen when the flu season hits in midwinter.

Virtually every major metropllitan area, and many rural areas, are struggling with this issue. They're seeing 8 or 10 or 12 hospitals in a major urban market simultaneously on E.M.S. diversion because they have no inpatient beds or critical care beds.

But you can't drive by every facility. You have to take the patient somewhere.

Robby

This will probably be the shortest post I have ever written but I must speak my mind! In reading all of your declarations, recommendations and intuitive thought relative to what passes for health care in the United States, I am so impressed at the insight, intelligence, and wisdom of all of your thoughts and opinions, particularly those of our friends and neighbors to the north. I am both humble and proud to be in your company. Thank you!

Mike

An old Chinese (I believe) proverb says: "A leader is a person who watches which way the people go and then gets out in front."

I understand what you are saying, Mike. I am called the "leader" here but I have learned to spend most of the time backing out of the way and letting the "insight, intelligence, and wisdom" pour out.

I have no idea how I ended up being the DL but the privilege is mine.

Robby

Enough, Idris. You wrote, "Hubby and I laughed...because you are all going to swallow" something something.

You're writing to the wrong audience. Most of us already agree with your perceptions and assessments about U.S. healthcare. Your several posts lambasting our situation doesn't help anything---especially since I agree with most of what you say.

After suffering through the Ashcroft confirmation hearings (as much as I could stand), I don't have a lot of hope for any meaningful changes/reforms in other areas, like medical care.

"Socialized" medicine doesn't scare me off. The word is ok with me. Canadian single-payor---I actually don't understand at all why anyone could fault that system--except, of course, those who stand to lose their billions.

We're singing with ya, Idris.

I have not been here in this discussion in awhile - I was not sure that I should share this with y'all - but after seeing Ted Kopple's show tonight and seeing a truly shaken dear man - my heart compels me to share the tremor of shock that we felt in our office on Tuesday.

I am a Real Estate Broker in an office of about 40 agents. One of our agents, Niten Shaw shared that the town so devastated by the earthquake in India is his home town. His family, his parents are all safe but he lost most of his family friends and many of families neighbors and his boyhood playmates.

Niten shared how most families kept their money at home and although there is nothing there now that money could buy - no food, water, material for shelter, medical equipment and supplies, petrol, food for livestock - infants, new mothers, the young and old are all without the bare necessities - when reconstruction is started there is no money to purchase material in order to rebuild businesses, homes, churches. The government of India will not take care of individuals but rather the city will be helped.

And so in order to get help and assistance to Individual families relief funds are being established. With that comes the fear of those handling the funds syphoning off the top and those in need and for whom the funds are collected would not receive what was intended for their aid.

Niten suggests that there are some good reliable National organizations but the good sized Indian community here in Austin established a relief organization with the soul intent of getting the relief to the people. Since Niten Shaw, a graduate engineer with an MBA as well, who owned a string of Video stores before coming into Real Estate knows how to organize and perform as the successful business man that he is - He along with a few others in the Austin Indian community from the earthquake destroyed area will manage and direct the aid appropriately and with honesty. If you think you would like to help you may send donations to Gujarat Earthquake Relief Fund
504 W. 24th Street, Box#222
Austin, Texas 78705

Betty:--As you say, we may be singing together, but for many of us it helps to get strong feelings off our chest.

Barbara, as you indicate, your posting was not directly related to our current sub-topic, but I'm sure we all agree that if we were all sitting around in a living room having our regular discussion that it would be normal to digress concerning such a horrible disaster as occurred in India. It has been shown time and time again that the Democracy in America "family" here is a caring one. Thank you for sharing that address.

Does everyone here agree with Betty in "not having a lot of hope for meaningful reforms in medical care?"

Robby

The problem is not only the crowding of the emergency rooms themselves, it is also the crowding of acute-care hospital beds in general. Patients get stuck in emergency departments because there are no beds for them in intensive care units or critical care wards.

Managed care has failed to live up to its promise to keep patients out of the emergency room. Many uninsured people end up in emergency rooms for lack of primary care. Hospitals have merged or closed or shrunk. Federal cuts in reimbursements for Medicare and Medicaid have brought added hospital cuts.

Will this continue or worsen?

Robby

It is terrible what happened in India. The Canadian government made $3 million available, then upped it to 5 million. I know that the UK made available 3 million pound, but haven't heard if they have found more. They will need all the money they can get to rebuild the area and take care of the people.

On a Newsworld TV program last night they were talking about our shortage of nurses. They are leaving Canada as they get more money elsewhere. I believe the wages were Ontario $30 an hour. British Colu,bia $23 an hour. In Seattle, which is just south of British Columbia, the wages are $50 an hour.

Many to the US, but also Saudi Arabia and anywhere that pays well. Many of them said that they would like to go where it is warm. They said that they were getting daily phone calls offering jobs.

Kath:--How will that affect the health picture in Canada if nurses leave for the United States to make almost twice as much?

Robby

One of the problems we have is lack of extenda-cares. These are govenment run Sr. Citizens homes for people with serious problems. Most will only pay their Canada Pension to reside and be taken care of in these homes. My father spent the last three years of his life in one. He had alzeimers. All was well until his mind was totally gone and he became violent. Then he was put in a lock-up ward. It was some terrible to see him in there but there was no alternative as my mother had serious heart troubles. We found her a geared to income apartment and she was delighted with the surroundings and freedom she had. Even found herself a boyfriend. Now that was good. She went to dances, flitted here and there and generally enjoyed her last five years.

You see if there are no extenda cares, too few Senior's Apartments with all of the ammenities then when they are ill they end up in the halls. Long term care should not be done in an intensive care ward and yet that is what happens here. It messes up the whole system. We need more extenda cares, meals on wheels, Senior's apartments with access to Drs. on call and other small things that allow folks to live life to the fullest.

We had better deal with this soon because the boomer bubble is fast approaching a time when many will be needed.

ROBBY~The same way as it would affect the US if nurses left. We will be short of nurses until we train more. Then what is to stop them leaving too? We can't afford to pay $50 an hour with our medical system. It is pure greed.

The daughter of friends teaches nursing. Her husband is a professor in a medical school. They are teaching in North Carolina at the moment, but are returning to Canada. They prefer it here.

Wasn't it Hillary Clinton who tried to instigate a movement toward national health care in the United States some years ago? Well, Mrs. Clinton is now Senator Clinton. Perhaps she'll reinstigate her campaign and do something about problems we've been discussing here.

Mal

Just wanted to check in with y'll as I haven't been here for days. My ISP was down and other things interfered with my online time.

Idris, am liking what you have to say, but you are "speaking to the choir". Seems we need a clean slate in several places, like health care and utilities ownership.

We do have some good things here in the States, such HUD Senior apartments which are tied to your income, we have Meals on Wheels, visiting nurses and physical therapists, transportation. When my husband almost died in the HDMC(heart disease management clinic) which is part of our hospital, the social worker was right there with suggestions and offering us help in finding what he might need and how to pay for it. We do try but "then the greed raises its ugly head!"

Its the same with our utilities problems. I heard yesterday that when California decided to deregulate they thought( or convinced the public) that many suppliers would pick up the dispersement of electricity and the prices would come down and then the companies could have enough money to build the many needed producing plants. Buuuuut, a huge congomerate in Texas seems to have taken over the biggest part of supplying California's electricity and is charging huge prices.

I heard that they are considering building plants in Mexico to produce the electricity. They have lower standards for clean air there. I wonder if they checked the wind directions and that the dirty air will make it to the US.

Kath, looks like for the very first time the President will visit Mexico before he visits Canada. Hmmmmmmmm

Then again on the positive side, who really wants to visit cold, snowy Ottawa until very late spring.

)

I wish I could take a Mexican holiday Idris. My son and his family went to Jamaica and our Prime Minister was in the next resort to them. We should all be so lucky. ;o)

My brother and sister-in-law live in Antiqua. Oh boy!

)

In reading through the last 35 posts or so, I see that many share the same feeling about health care (whether in hospitals, clinics, ER's) that I do. In our immediate area of Washington DC, two of the major hospitals have been in the process of closing for several months. Last week, another one announced that they were closing their ER. How can a hospital NOT have an ER, I wondered when I heard the TV news? The hospitals which are closing serve primarily a poor, elderly Black population. Following on their footsteps, are the middle-age poor, Black residents of Washington DC. Then the single-parent families with several children comes next. These people have depended on the ER and hospital clinics for their who lives. Now they have NOTHING in terms of even the most basic medical care.

At the same time, the Mayor was on TV yesterday talking about the "new development plan" in Washington will encourage construction of new apartments, restaurants and clubs. It will "revitalize" the downtown Washington area. This is at the same time while other citizens are desperately seeking health care for their families. Revitalization vs health care in the Nation's Capital? We know who wins. And it's criminal!

One of the other big issues here right now is that our Fire Depts. in the area are so far beyond their budgets that they cannot hire the personnel needed to staff up all of the fire stations around the metropolitan area (which includes stations in Maryland, too). Trained cadets are ready to work, but the budgets cannot afford them. Now how many milliions were spent on the Inaugural celebrations?

We have a lot of issues to be conerned about as citizens - and greatly ashamed about as Americans who allow our elected officials to continually overlook those most vulnerable citizens in our country. The only thing we can do as individuals is to keep on trying to make our voices heard in the political chambers over those of Big Business (i.e., pharmaceutical companies, health care monopolies, etc.) and fight like Hell when it affects our own families or those who come to our attention for assistance.

Mahlia it is heartbreaking that so many people are losing their access to medical care. What is going to happen when all of these diseases that are resistant to modern medicine break loose? These diseases will also hit the people with medical coverage, but it will be spread by the poor. As these people will not be seen by doctors disease will be spread. How will you know that they are sick with drug resistant TB? How will you know that you need to protect yourselves?

America needs a man with a vision to fight for the rights of the poor. They need someone like Tommy Douglas.

Kath reminds us of infectious diseases. Influenza has begun to rise after a slow start, according to federal health officials. But they add that most of the sneezing, coughing and hoarseness people are experiencing throughout the country is from viruses other than the one that causes influenza.

Because influenza ouatbreaks are notoriously unpredictable, the health officials warned that the flu season could get worse, particularly if travelers transmit the virus at airports and bus and train stations.

Earlier in the season people were urged to get a flu shot. The vaccine had been delayed by manufacturing problems but the supply is now ample. According to an influenza expert at the disease control centers, influenza activity is low to moderate in the nation but there are some "hot spots." Texas is the only state with widespread flu. Six other states (Arkansas, Colorado, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland and Tennessee) have hot spots in certain regions.

deTocqueville, in one of his quotes above, speaks of our "love of well-being." What are you doing to protect yourself and your family?

Robby

We do not have an emergency room in West Auckland. We have private clinics only- without real life support systems. If it was peak hour we have one corridor into the city to get motor accident victims to the orthapaedic hospital which is in South Auckland - quite a hike! I notice they are using the helicopter quite a lot. Ambulances do have life support units but not all of them. Our ambulance service is a charity one- St Johns. People pay subscriptions to join up their families if you are not a member you are billed for the use of the service.

I do have to say if you have a life threatening medical emergency you will be treated and it is free at any of our public hospitals. But saying so to go to the GP and pick up meds can be very costly for the average person. The most subsidy the poorest person can get is 30% of the cost. Well off people still get about a 15% subsidy. The problem we have here is for cancer treatment most people cannot afford private medical insurance especially the elderly. There are long waits to see free cancer specialists and by the time you get to see one it can often mean the difference between surviving cancer or not surviving. The cancer rate here they say is one in three now. People seem to getting it at a young age too.

Australia now has a much better health system than we do it used to be the other way around. Everyone in Australia pays health cover tax each week out of their wages. It is not an unaffordable amount.What you pay I think depends on your income. It works very well and they have very good health care. I would say that it is very similar to Canada's standard.

I really feel so sorry for the poor in countries where they cant go to an emergency room and get free treatment as we can here. OK our system is very flawed in some areas but it sounds like it is better than what you have in the USA for the poor.

Carolyn

I think our hospitals are not allowed to turn away anyone here in the States. We won't leave them lying on the streets.

The subject of the shortage of nurses, like so many of our other current problems, is multi-faceted and needs to be explored in a little more detail.

Perhaps it should be pointed out that there are those who believe that there is no more a shortage of trained nurses than there was a shortage of gasoline during the “gasoline crisis”. When the price of gasoline was raised to its current level, what appeared to be a shortage evaporated. Compounding that issue was, and still is, the prevailing working conditions under which the nursing profession is forced to operate. Under the dominance of a “for profit” medical care system successfully reducing the cost of the objective goals for which it was created by reducing quality of care and available facilities, hospitals are constantly increasing the patient load per nurse.

With cutbacks in Medicare and with government sanctioned decreases in services provided by HMO’s as well as physicians, patients who are in hospitals require more intense nursing care. Too many RN’s are simply not willing to risk losing their professional licenses and their livelihoods when mistakes occur, under unrealistic hospital patient load policies as well as irresponsible hospital administration economics.

Low wages and dangerous increases in patient load per nurse are directly attributable to what is perceived as a nursing shortage, much more so, I sincerely believe, than some might attribute to greed. If anybody doubts the validity of that premise, I suggest that you trade places for a day or two with any practicing nurse in any of our commonly overloaded hospitals.

What really puzzles me is the seemingly unreasonableness, to some, of the going rate of $50.00 per hour for a nurse in whose care you may be forced to place the lives of your loved ones, when we seem to have little complaint in the reality of $35,000.000.00 contracts with our favorite sport figures!

Mike

The promises of primary care have been dashed in large part, health care experts say, because insurance reimbursements for primary care doctors are so low that too few are willing to be in the field or to extend themselves to late hours or weekends when emergency care is required. A spokesman for the American College of Emergency Physicians said: "We are a symptom of the disease that is the health care system."

As regards infectious disease, most colds and upper respiratory tract infections, according to an epidemiologist, are caused by rhino virus, respiratory synctial virus and parainfluenza viruses. There are an estimated 75 million Americans at high risk for complications of influenza infection. They include people 65 and older, and those with weakened immune systems and chronic ailments like heart disease and diabetes.

Alexis deTocqueville wants to know if you are paying attention to your "well-being."

Robby

Robby, i think i mentioned a few days ago that most Provinces have made flu shots available for all of us at no cost. The first groups to be "shot" were the groups you mentioned. These folks went to their Dr. for the shot and a look over.

The rest of us went to a clinic for ours. The problem is the flu that is really making people sick up here is another strain. It got into the schools and that did it for many families. I am a shy person to start out with so staying away from crowds is no problem for me but many get into rather large groups and then they get sick. If it is about and you are there, you will get it.

I'm very glad the strain we were innoculated for hasn't been around because it was even worse than the one that is about.

Would you folks agree that now that the world is becoming smaller and transportation involves millions of people that if we are to consider infectious diseases, we must also examine what is happening in other nations?

In the last three months at least 340 people have become infected with the Ebola virus in Uganda, and 149 of them have died. Patients die from this rapidly and dramatically, from shock and massive bleeding. The Ebola virus spreads by contact with bodily fluids, including sweat, and can be contracted just by touching an infected person.

In Uganda the local hospitals cannot afford soap, bleach and gloves, the elementary infection-control tools that would contain the disease. The Uganda outbreak is expected to kill half its sufferers. There is currently no cure.

What, if anything, should we do about this?

Robby

Did you know that there was an envelope delivered to the Minister of Immigration's office in Ottawa, Canada. The envelope contained bacteria of some sort. It has been sent to Winnipeg to find out just what it is.

The whole building was closed down and the employees sent home. Four people who came in contact with the envelope have been given anti-biotics and are being monitored.

The envelope was purported to contain some dreaded bacteria.

All of our borders are so porous that we can't keep these folks out if they really aren't sick enough to stop them from travel. There are places at the airports to quaranteen folks but what if they don't know they have something and they don't look sick...yet. They get into the general population and then you have a problem.

Both of our countries have a problem with TB that can't be cured. The folks are walking around in the mix of citizens.

There are such gloomy and depressing stories in here today which include some degree of horror that I feel compelled to come in and say something about what is offered to people with little money in this country if they know how to go about getting these services.

My son suffered a brain injury in an accident, as I've posted here before, which can lead to schizophrenic and psychotic episodes. He has received care from a licensed psychiatrist for a minimal fee, under five dollars a visit, for many years. He also has bought his medication at a reduced rate, relative to the disability allowance he receives. Before he went on disability and had Medicare, his hospital fees were paid by Medicaid at no expense to him or me.

When I was supporting him and was his caregiver, I went to a psychologist through Health and Human Services for advice about his care and how to maintain my equilibrium under the extreme stress such caregiving brings. Those hour long visits cost me between five and ten dollars for an hour's consultation. It would have been less if I wasn't able to pay that fee.

Through the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, both here in NC and in Florida when I lived there, I was given a brand new leg brace, cost around two thousand dollars, I suppose, though my first one in 1936 was $25.00. I was also given a computer, computer table, printer and some training in Florida so I could earn more income for myself. Here I was told of jobs where people would hire a handicapped person. In fact, I was offered a job at the local Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, which I had to refuse because I could no longer work a 40 hour week.

I buy supplemental medical insurance through AARP at a relatively low cost compared to other health insurance fees to augment Medicare payments, and when I had cellulitis in my polio leg, my doctor made arrangements for me to receive daily visits from a nurse; from a social worker who brought me not only a walker but a bath bench so I could shower, and from a physio-therapist who worked with me doing exercises. Cleaning help was sent in twice a week to vacuum, clean and dust my apartment, and three times a week an aide came in to wash my hair, help me bathe, and do whatever else she could for me until I was able to do these things for myself. The supplemental insurance paid for all of this, as well as daily intravenous injections of an antibiotic as long as I needed it.

I was also listed with a transportation company which sent a van to pick me up when I had to go to the doctor and bring me home at a cost of 25 cents a trip. This service is still available to me for shopping, etc., but I live outside the city limits now, and the service stops there. A noontime dinner provided by Meals on Wheels was brought to me daily, at a cost relative to my income and expenses.

Many times people don't know where to go for help or where to ask for it. I've made it a point to tell as many people as I can about these social services.

I see no shortage of nursing help here in the area where I live, but I live close to two large university medical centers, both of which have excellent emergency room care and triage centers.

Though I can see many changes that should be made in the health care in the United States, I can also say that there are services available to all if they make their needs known and investigate what is available.

Mal

MAL - I was really heartened to read your comments about the range of services and support you have received for yourself and your son's needs. Perhaps so that others will be able to ascertain their own needs vis a vis what you have explained here, you could post some specific information - like the name of the supplementary insurance you carry in addition to Medicare - and then share that information with friends, colleagues, neighbors or anyone whom they might think could available themselves of additional help. Certainly your experiences have been very positive, but in many areas (and our Washington DC area is one), services are NOT as readily available, nor are people as willing to reach out and help. It would really be good to know how some of these wonderful services that have helped you could be contacted and/or to find out if similar ones are available in local areas.

Mal:--Thank you for helping us to see the other side of the coin. My patients pay me up front or we use their insurance card or we use a combination. I have never (repeat NEVER) sent a patient away for monetary reasons. I make the same remarks to every new patient who seems to be hesitating to continue. I say: "If you don't want to continue because you don't like me personally, I respect that. If you don't want to continue because you don't think I am qualified, I understand that. But if you don't want to continue because you can't afford it, I won't accept that. We'll work something out." And we always do. Like Mal's psychiatrist, I have on numerous occasions accept regular $5 payments for each visit.

I am not blowing my own horn. There are many health care providers who do such things. You are correct, Mal, that not every health picture is a "gloomy and depressing" one. Any other "happy" experiences here?

Robby

Thank you, Mal, for a thoughtful, well presented positive comment on the side of reason. It is all too easy to dwell on the horror stories and forget all the good that is done.

Yes, Mal, you have had a positive experience with health care here in the states and I am glad that you have shared it with us. Sounds like your town or state is doing a good job of looking after its less fortunate citizens. As I said earlier, we were offered consultation at our hospital from the social worker for evaluating our needs for my husband. She was so wonderful and full of information.

Robby, we do need to look at the good side of medicine in the US and you are good to share your experiences with patients. We are lucky to have you, a licensed psycologist, here, with whom to compare our different experiences.

Probably most of us have had both good and bad times with our health system. After all, we are all, patients and doctors and nurses, just human.

We all have only so much energy,and therefore, only so much time to make life quality decisions.

Who in this jungle of experiences, beliefs, advocates, truth peddlers, truly have the grasp of: This is your option as an American, Canadian, citizen to expect these so called TRUTHS? I am completly alienated about what is truth: there, here. where?! Geeeeez! Frustration here I is!!!!!!!

Robby there are only a few people in your field here who will negotiate fees. It is one of the reasons I was thinking about undertaking study so I could help others with only a nominal fee. My needs are not great. The problem I had was the prohibitive cost of the study I dont want to be taking on a mortgage now when I dont have one at present. I am glad there are people like you because there is a real need out there.

Carolyn

Many years ago I moved to Fla. with my eight year old daughter having spent my entire life in NYS.

She had a history of ear problems; her NY ENT SPECIALIST, gave me the name of a specialist in Florida and needless to say, she got ill with a 103 temperature and ear infection. I immediately called the referred specialist and was informed that I could have an appointed three months from then! I didn't know what to do, and then remembered to tell the name of the NY specialist who had referred me emphasizing that he was a personal friend of the Fla. doctor. Not only did I get an immediate appointment for that day, -- the doctor himself get on the phone immediately asking "Oh, hey, how is dr. so and so; what's he been doing, etc."

As I sat in that waiting room, holding my daughter who was in excruciating pain, I knew the doctor wasn't seeing her because she was a child in pain, but because he was a personal friend of the NYS doctor? I was soooooooo angry. And I had to admit, that my Mother, once again, was right. "It isn't what you know -- it's who you know."

After two years, I moved back to NYSE and, once again, within a few days of moving back, obtaining a job where medical insurance had not kicked in yet, and no other medial insurance available, as well as no savings, my daughter developed yet another problem. I took her to her ENT of years past who stated that she needed surgery immediately and if not, she would develop meningitis and die! He told me to contact Social Services.

I had no choice but to seek the assistance of our Social Services Department who informed me that because I was gainfully employed they could not help me and that if they could, my daughter would not be allowed to have the ENT doctor she knew from the time she was a baby. I explained they could have an automatic wage deduction on my salary. "No" was their response. They informed me that there was a medical funding shortage because it was an election year and the roads had to be paved so that the politicians could point to valid expenditure of monies. Social Services concluded by telling me "that the best advise they could give me was to abandon my daughter" and she would then get the hospital care that she needed.

Rest of the story: Across from where I worked there was a little bar where we went on lunch hours and met a variety of every class of individual from lawyers and judges; to mechanics to telephone linemen and operators, auto mechanics and secretaries. On fella in particular, everyone called either "Lou" or "Commissioner." I only knew he was a nice gentlemen. I had told the owner of the bar my plight because he asked what was wrong and he was so understanding. When I finished my story, he said: "Do you know who Lou is?" - "No." He continued by calling Lou over and formally introducing me to the County Commissioner who headed, among other things the Department of Social Services. He asked me to describe my plight, the name of my daughter's surgeon and how soon she needed surgery. He went to the phone, came back ten minutes later and not only was my daughter scheduled for her surgery but she was to be operated on by her own specialist. All because I casually knew a guy named "Lou"!

I know that Mal's story in so far as it relates to health care is uplifting and positive. Good for you Mal.

I guess the uplifting part of the medical profession to expound upon in this post would be to say that the ENT specialist agreed to perform the surgery for the reduced fee as allowed by Social Services. Oh, incidentially, he played cards with Lou!

My daughter received, an I am grateful, all the right medical assistance, for all the wrong medical reasons.

Dolphin

And Robby -to you I say - hip - hip - hurray.

Dolphindli

When I was married, it aggravated me because my husband seemed to take so long to react to what I considered a problem serious enough to be called an emergency, one that would have sent me impulsively out of the house and into my car to wherever and whomever that "emergency" involved.

When I was not married and alone, far away from relatives and people I knew, and had to make all of my own decisions, I realized that the time my husband had taken to think before he acted in an emotional way was necessary if I was to solve problems, not just medical ones.

Because my elder son is incompetent mentally in some ways and unable to make his own decisions in others, it was up to me to find ways to get him disability payments and proper medical care.

I fought doctors to keep my son out of an institution because I know he's too valuable to waste. I fought the United States government to get him disability payments. I contacted every possible source I could find to get him proper care. I investigated every possible means to find help. It didn't matter to me whether I had to call one doctor and ask him to use his influence on another doctor to achieve what was necessary, and I didn't think about reasons why my son was treated as long as he was.

The services that my son and I received were not handed out on silver platters, they were worked for, mainly because of my ignorance about their availability. The fact remains that those services were and are there. What was accomplished means far more than the methods in which those pressing goals were met.

The same was true when I had the medical problem I described. Luckily, along the way in both cases I found some advocates who pointed me in the right direction.

Information about social services should be publicly available to every citizen of the United States.

Mal

Carolyn:--As for your wanting to undertake studies so that you could "help others" for a fee. I have no idea what the laws are like in your nation but in America you would be playing with fire.

To get where I am, medically speaking, I had first my four years undergraduate degree in Psychology, then nine more years in graduate study receiving a Masters in Psychology and then a Ph.D. in Psychology, then interning for a year and a half in the addiction unit of a hospital, then applying for and receiving a license from the Commonwealth of Virginia in Clinical Psychology. If I tried to "help someone" and especially if I charged anything, I could lose my license and be prosecuted legally if I did not hold that license.

Dolphin:--In my opinion, it's what you know PLUS who you know. There's no doubt that most of us, as we look back, have gained in one way or another by knowing someone but a little extra knowledge about the subject at hand helps.

What Mal has recounted illustrates what I am trying to say.

Robby

The World Health Organization is coordinating teams of doctors in Uganda to help local hospitals isolate patients and to track the Ebola virus to find its origin. The American Centers for Disease Control and Prevention set up a laboratory that can diagnose Ebola before symptoms begin.

The C.D.C. also sent a team to Saudi Arabia to help control another kind of viral hemorrhagic fever. In earlier Ebola outbreaks in Congo, Gabon, Sudan and the Ivory Coast, the fever died off after local authorities got help to finance and organize basic practices to keep family members, fellow hospital patients and health workers from touching Ebola patients.

Do any of these infections thousands of miles away have anything to do with us?

Robby

How many hours by plane?????

In response to Robby's latest question, "...do any of these infections thousands of miles away have anything to do with us?"

I would like to ask if anyone remembers a song with the words: "ALL I NEED IS THE AIR THAT I BREATH AND TO LOVE YOU"?

Well, with air polution and AIDs alone, I doubt of that song would be a success today.

Addressing Robby's question further, I truly believe that disease in countries thousand of miles away does have an effect on the rest of the earth's population.

Maybe we should all go back and visit the post by mikecantor - 04:24pm Jan 18, 2001 PST (#1238 of 1432) -The Year 2015 - The CIA Report"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/Nightline/nl010118_email_feature.html

which stated in the very first paragraph:

"The first is the emergence of new and more virulent diseases. The danger here is seen as so great that some argue that the U.S. military should not be deployed to certain parts of the world so that they will not be exposed."

It continues:

"Secondly, we'll look at how the population of the world is changing. First, the numbers are exploding, mostly in those parts of the world where the infrastructure to support larger populations does not exist. Huge numbers of people are moving from the countryside to the cities, bringing a whole new set of problems."

We are not just a world moving from community to community; from city to city, but from Country to Country and with each move it is apparent that disease spreads. (Hell, Columbus brought unknown diseased to the Native American.)

Our world is a constantly shrinking entity and just as we bring ethnic cultures to share, it is sad to say we bring disease -- in fact, some carry diseases they do not even know they have.

In previously addressing the Aid's issue, look how long it took before the Center for Disease Control here in the US realized it was an entity of epic proportions? Isn't world AIDS a perfect example of disease following man or man following disease?

A bigger tragedy is not the disease that we know not how to treat -- but the diseases the governments are creating as a program of germ warfare. And, I ask, do we know who they are testing those germs on?

Additionally with factories, waste, and water pollution and eventually our lakes, rivers and streams being contaminated, of course disease thousands of miles away affect us. (In using us, I am not limiting this to the United States, but any country thousands of miles away from another country.

Crews on ships carry disease; migrating birds carry disease. We can just read the news reports on thousands of beached Dolphins, whales and other marine creatures to let us know that something out there is drawing very near to our homeland, wherever it may be.

So, to think we remain unaffected by the unknown diseases thouand miles away, in my mind, is tantamount to belief in Santa Claus.

Dolphin

And so, Dolphin (and others here), how should we go about handling this problem?

Robby

Here you do a three year course it is not a medical degree. After working for a certain amount of time in a practical sense you can do counselling.Basically it would involve counselling people who are having difficulty finding their way out of difficult situations or suffering low self esteem etc. Clinical cases are not always seen by Psychiatrists here, we dont have enough. You generally maybe get one appt with a DR in Pyschiatric medicine and then get handed on to a clinical Psychologist. Only the worst cases are under a Psychiatrist. One member of my family was under an American Doctor on a years contract here. He was the worst doctor I have ever come in contact with. I had to go along to the first few therapy sessions with the family member. He used four letter words and shouted. I wondered if he had a bogus degree! I asked to be removed from the sessions and also that the patient be removed. The Clinical Psychologist I saw later for myself to handle all the stress I had undergone caring for a terminally ill husband would have done six years study. She would have her degree and then maybe two years in a supervised practice. Most people are employed in Hospital extensions there are not many practising on their own so supervision is reasonably good. I am capable of obtaining a degree but the cost is prohibitive I got all my enrolment pack for college and added up the costs and I was not prepared to take on a loan from the State, it was too expensive for me when I have a property to maintain on my own and pay land taxes etc. I had no intention of getting some third grade qualification and setting out to charge exhorbitant fees to unsuspecting clients! I would have liked to get my degree and instead of charging $120 per hour charge whatever the person could afford. A counsellor here charges on the average of $120 per hour.

I am not as naive as you seem to think Robbie!

Carolyn

Carolyn:--In no way was I thinking you naive. I was merely pointing out what the laws were in America and indicating that I did not know the laws in New Zealand.

Robby

The flu most of us got the shot for is now in London, Ontario. These are the first reported cases. Let's see how long it takes to travel across the country.

Now if that flu were something else.....

Carolyn:--In no way was I thinking you naive. I was merely pointing out what the laws were in America and indicating that I did not know the laws in New Zealand.

Robby

I perceive a thread between all of those issues which are being discussed here concerning bio-terrorism, the spread of incurable diseases through the world, and the logistics of a governmental process whose main goals appear to be the initiation of tax refunds from what is now estimated to be a five trillion dollar surplus to shore up the threat of a recession.

At the very end of that common thread is a very common solution. There exists a need, not only in this nation, but in the rest if the world as well, for a realignment of priorities based on a realistic appraisal of the only resources, short of prayer, that are available to those who are prepared to face the future with courage and unbridled determination. Clearly, those of us participating in these discussions, know full well what the problems are. It is the solutions to those problems that confound us!

I would submit for your consideration what I believe to be some real solutions which have the potential for changing a future loaded with great peril for us all, to one that has the possibility of hope.

Every ultra-contagious disease that currently exists, anywhere on the face of this earth, not to ignore those about which we, as yet, are not aware of, is a direct threat to the lives of each and every one of us. The miraculous improvements with regard to transport of goods and services as well as an unbelievable movement of large masses of people to and through every nick and cranny of the world have made that a certainty. There simply is no conceivable way to avoid it. The best we can ever hope to do is to attempt to cope with the associated problems of mass transmission of communicable diseases as best we can. That can be handled in two phases. The first phase would consist of offering every material assistance possible in regard to hygienic prevention, including education, to those nations, particularly in Africa, whose populations are dying in such numbers, that if allowed to continue, could contribute to their extinction. In truth, in the world we live in today, humanity could well become an endangered species!

The second phase would be to call upon the more affluent nations of the world to contribute medicinal supplies towards the maintenance of life in diseased and poverty stricken countries who are forced to watch their children die for lack of a few pennies worth of medicine. Unless we can bring ourselves to do that, to a much greater order of magnitude than is currently being attempted, than I would seriously question our right to call ourselves civilized.

The threat of bio-terrorism to all life as we know it on this planet is no longer one of conjecture. As recently as this Friday, a group of distinguished scientists and doctors gathered in the lecture hall at the National Academy of Sciences in Washington to discuss the possible outcomes of a smallpox attack. The assessed grim toll of death was estimated to be on the order of millions of dead. Today, the U.S. total of smallpox vaccine is approximately 15.4 million doses, enough for only 7 percent of the nations population. Since populations are no longer vaccinated against smallpox, they are frighteningly exposed to a virus that killed 300 million people in the last century. One must conclude that bio-terrorism on American soil is a real threat particularly when it is well known that the Soviet Union stockpiled anthrax during the Cold War, a cache still believed in existence. Such organizations such as the U.S. Center For Disease Control and Prevention are well aware of what it will take to initiate some protective measurements against such potential bio-terrorism disasters. Unfortunately, in today’s economy and political environment, the need for a tax cut seems to be occupying our collective attention as a higher priority.

The question in my mind is this: What good will it do to spend this so-called surplus on tax cuts to avoid a recession, when half the population of the nation may no longer be alive to enjoy the benefits?

Mike

Carolyn - the type of training that you described sounds like what we would call an Internship in the USA. Two of my former colleagues in a major American unversity, who held Ph.D.'s in literature obtained a Master's in Psychology at Johns Hopkins years ago, did a two year Internship under the supervision of licensed practioners and then were licensed to work with individual clients. They had to refresh their status every 18 months and keep current with new research. Are there educational funds available to women in your area, who wish to pursue additional (or different) fields of study and obtain a degree. We have those options here and many women take advantage of them after they have retired (or as they are nearing retirement) from their previous professions.

I would like to address to your question Robby, but I believe you have unfinished business here relating to the health care field and the alleged professionals. If we must be angry at the health care system, then I suggest a reading of "As Nature Made Him", (John Colapinto) which is the story of a young Canadian boy raised as a girl. He received his therapy on both sides of the border.

And yes, wouldn't it be wonderful if caregivers just said "No problem, that will be $5.00". If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

Dolphin

PS - I will answer your question Robby when I feel it's appropriate and after seeing what see some other posts continue to relate to.

Thanks for asking.

MIKE - OK, you're hired. Come back here to Washington and head up a Citizens Lobbying Team to move through Congress, talking to representatives of both parties, as well as their main constituents, and create an "in your face and personal" presentation that brings home not only the stats on how many are dying "even as we speak," but the dangers of how all the "foreign" diseases that our American kids collect coins to alleviate are absolutely dangerous to our American country and culture in the foreseeable future (that means in "Your Lifetime, Mr. Congressman!) Then delegate a Team to the State Deparmtent and convince Powell and the Undersecretaries that the # 1 priority on ALL foreign policy considerations should be diseases aborad (and those already in the USA) that are dangerous to Americans. Be sure to mention that as many countries have focused economic aid and support on Africa to reduce AIDS, Chinese communities in the interior (far away from the massive government structures of Beijing and the trading zones of Shanghai and the Southwest, have been inundated with AIDS, but that the information is only NOW appearing in the world press. You and your teams (meaning all Americans) have a big job ahead of you - not a 9 to 5 in a nice corner office - because that is what it will take to make people stand up and take notice of the perils that we face if we do not pay attention now. All of us love and are proud of our grandchildren. Personally, I'd like to think that MY grandchildren will survice childood and have long lives, absent from the fear and dangers of disease that I - in my mature judgement - could have helped to prevent. And I know that all of you join me in this thought. So make your voices heard.

Add on to the dangers that Mike stated -- the spread of TB in Russia where it was once nearly under control but has become epidemic since the collapse of the Soviet Union. In most of Russia's overcrowded prisons tuberculosis has been spiraling out of control. TB is flooding the country. Some authorities are calling it the world's largest outbreak of the drug-resistant variety.

Rates of other infections, including hepatitis, syphilis and AIDS, are skyrocketing. An epidemic of diphtheria swept through in the mid-1990's. And reports of smaller, regional outbraks of encephalitis, typhoid fever, malaria, polio, pneumonia and influenza pepper their nightly news. (Here in the northern Virginia area where I live the news tells us of the once rare typhoid fever now in the schools.)

And to follow Mike's comment about "transport" and Mahlia's stern warning about possibilities, TB cases of Russian origin are turning up in the Baltic countries and in Germany and Israel.

Can "government" do anything about it? Tuberculosis is hardly new in Russia. It ravaged the country in the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. But before the Sovet Union fell it was finally being brought under control, through major government effort and and expense. Infection rates, though roughly three times higher than in the United States, were falling in parallel with those in Europe and developed countries elsewhere.

Here in this forum where we speak about Democracy, can we say that Russia's new freedoms have been accompanied by a wave of old diseases? What did deTocqueville mean when he spoke (quote above) of "the evils which Democracy brings?"

Robby

I would like to add my two cents' worth to the discussion. As a former employee of the United States Congress, I have what some refer to as "gold" among health plans. Federal employees, retirees, and members of Congress receive maximum benefits, when it comes to health. We who choose not to join an HMO, and with Medicare as our primary, are the most fortunate. I can go to specialists of my choice, get medicines which can run from very little to almost mind-boggling amounts, at a cost of $12 or $20 for a three months supply. As an example, a new medication is now available for rheumatoid arthritis, which costs approximately $14,000 per year for two injections a week. As a victim of this disease, I am able to procure this treatment, and it has enabled me to function at a near normal level. This is a medication that is not available to the vast majority of Americans. Why?

Well, the answer is obvious. Our Country is in the hands of those who at one time were referred to as "robber barons", and I see no end in sight to their power. These thieves have their hands in our pockets, and nothing has been or will be done about it.

An article in this morning's Washington Post concerns the cost of natural gas. To heat one's house in the Washington area, bills have tripled. One family's January bill, according to the article, went from $200 to $750. We are told that there will be no Government interference. Well, ya pays ya money, but you don't get a choice.

My heart goes out to the many who have posted their sad stories about medical care in America. I see little or no hope for the many who are less fortunate than myself. The boogyman has always been "socialized medicine", and the powers that be are not going to let anything change that might threaten the bottom line, PROFITS! That's the name of the game here, so we might as well get used to it.

We've got an administration that managed to force its way in through the back door, and they are not going away. They will make a lot of noise about being compassionate conservatives, but all that means is a lot of crocodile tears. There will be a huge tax cut for those who have the most, with perhaps a few crumbs for the many who have the least, but if anybody is looking for a change for the better as far a medical care or social benefits are concerned, fagedaboudid.

Bob C

Bob C:--Good to see you back again.

Bob agrees with our Canadian friends that a significant number of Americans are afraid of "socialized medicine." And he holds out no hope.

Do the rest of you folks agree that "the country is in the hands of robber barons?"

Robby

Hello Roberto:Hello Roberto:

I am curious is your drug ENBREL? It sounds like it. My granddaughter developed Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis at age 13 (now 17) and as soon as Embrel came on the market her specialist prescribed it for her; however, as you say the cost is phenomenal. My daughter has United Health Care plus and they notified her that they would no longer cover the prescription -- but, after doing battle, we were successful and they now cover it. She also gives herself her own shots and we laughed because the government will give free needles to druggies, but not to victims of disease. Ironic, isn't it?

Count your blessings for they type of health insurance you have. I often cringe when I watch our congressman and senators as soon as they mention health care and health insurance. I don't believe they have one clue as to what it is to be without insurance.

When you talk about 'robber barons' it conjures visions of insurance company ruling the health care profession; telling doctors what medicine will and will not be allowed; and they hold not only the public, but the medical profession by the preverbal prescription pad. (for lack of a better description).

The same way the insurance companies control medical testing. You can't have test D (which would immediately diagnosis a condition), until you have had test A and B. Such a waste.

Dolphindli

It seems passing strange to me that these elected officials can stand in front of their electors and talk about why there can't be universal health care...when they have the best money can buy. Hypocrits!

Robbie, at post #140 asked: "And so, Dolphin (and others here), how should we go about handling this problem?

While reading Mahlia's post: " Personally, I'd like to think that MY grandchildren will survive childhood and have long lives...So make your voices heard," I had just finished reading a term paper prepared by the same granddaughter referenced above and, for me, it connected to this discussion.

Her paper was on 'muckrakers'; "those journalists and photographer's who brought industry to its knees and government to task to instigate laws on the books that remain today regarding child labor, poor working conditions and pollution. Without the brave, courageous, relentless and unyielding exploitation of the political and industrial corruption of the era, by the muckrakers, who knows what our standards would be operating today" (her words).

Well, maybe we should all turn into muckrakers. I know I mention Mike's post several times in regard to the CBS special with Koppel - who in essence is bring forth exactly what is happening with the nation as far as the spread of disease is concerned. Is he not bringing an awareness that affects all of us?

It's almost like we want I want to put my grandchildren in a cocoon. I watch one inject herself with a medicine for a know disease but where will the medicine come from for the unknown diseases.

We need, all countries need, tighter immigration laws. Heavens, my Mom told me stories of being quarantined on Ellis Island just for having a cold. With today's influx of immigrants, especially illegal immigrants there is no control and no monitoring.

A while back (very short while) we were talking about the pomp and circumstances of the inauguration - and the millions and millions of dollars spent on such frivolity (yes I believe it to be frivolity with so many dying of starvation in this country) when those funds could be used for research and spreading the word on the environment and disease more effectively than as a 'pet' project for some congressman, senator or president.

We are a wasteful nation and we are throwing ourselves away. Which brings up another point! Garbage and he disease it spreads. New laws implemented mandate waste disposal plants and already rules and regulations are not being followed.

My God, we have barges of garbage going up and down our lakes and oceans on boats and ships that are not even fit to carry garbage. it just seems to be a money maker for some and a death warrant for others.

I'm with Mahlia in her thinking. We must all be advocates.

I will also pray a lot.

dolphindli

Our children are very aware of the state of this old world. They are the ones who must face what we have done or allowed to be done. What sort of a world will they inherit? Beats me, but i don't think it will be what we look out the window and see. We have outsmarted ourselves and swallow the lies our politicians of all stripes tell us.

Soon there will be conference in Montreal about world trade and expanding the NAFTA to encompass South America. There lies drugs, poverty, child labour, poverty, horrid governments, poverty. We will accept it. Accept it all and our children and grandchildren will reap the whirlwind.

I think that the US could use someone like our treasured Joe Schlesinger. It is so good to find someone that is as honest as he is. We Canadians think he is wonderful.

Here is a poem by the thirteenth century Persian Poet Sa'adi.

Human beings are like part of a body

created from the same essence

When one part is hurt and in pain,

the others cannot remain in peace and be quiet

If the misery of others leaves you indifferent

and with no feelings of sorrow

You cannot be called a human being.

This too is my philosophy and so should it be the philosophy of wealthy nations towards their own suffering and the suffering in other nations.

We should be helping with health care for our own poor and those in emerging nations.

Carolyn

Been away 2 days, so am just catching up on posts.

Carolyn, I liked the motivation and spirit behind your thinking of getting your credentials and helping those who can't pay the exhorbitant fees. Here in the U.S., there are other people who "counsel" besides licensed Ph.D. psychologists. I know some wonderful social workers with social work (masters) degrees who are licensed in each state to do "counseling." Keep checking for grants and low-interest loans and scholarships. My experience is that money ear-marked for certain programs is often available, but not awarded because no one applied for it. In the U.S., there are books that list thousands of sources of grant money, etc. See if your library or the government carries a similar source.

Betty:--I'm glad you put quotes around "counseling" because there is all the difference in the world between that and psychotherapy. But that subject is for another discussion group.

Robby

Russia is a democracy, is it not? Then let us comment briefly about the health situation in that nation.

With life expectancy falling in that nation, there is a rising concern both there and in Western nations that Russia is struggling to preserve the well-being of its people. Russia faces a grim future, and could even require an international rescue effort.

Russian hospitals are in a perilous state. Drugs are in short supply. If available, they are often too costly for the average citizen. By one 1999 estimate, at least 20,000 cancer patients die annually because they cannot afford medicine. The problem is not just that Russia's health care system is ancient (one in 10 hospitals was built before 1914) or ill equipped (one in five hospitals have no running water - just think of that!!). All that was true when Soviet leaders ruled. The new problem? There is no health care system, not like there was before. Under the Soviet system, health care was accessible to everyone and free. Now that it is a democracy, reforms have mostly destroyed what existed before, and nothing has replaced it.

Robby

“Our country is in the hands of those who at one time were referred to as “robber barons”, and I see no end in sight to their power. These thieves have their hands in our pockets, and nothing has been or will be done about it.”

“The boogyman has always been “socialized medicine”, and the powers that be are not going to let anything change that might threaten the bottom line, PROFITS! That’s the name of the game here, so we might as well get used to it.”

“.....if anybody is looking for a change for the better as far as medical care or social benefits are concerned, fagedaboudid.” -----Roberto

I must say that I agree with everything stated in Roberto’s excellent post, with the exception of the negative connotations implied: “nothing has been or will be done about it”, “so we might as well get used to it”, “a change for the better as far as medical care or social benefits are concerned, fagedaboudid”.

I sincerely believe, and I know that I am not alone, that, as a nation, we can never throw in the towel at what we perceive as wrong-doing by our government and the special interests that are subverting the principles of what our democracy’s founding was based on. To do so is to debase and vilify the blood, sweat, tears and lives sacrificed by so many others who gave so much to preserve and protect that which we are privileged to enjoy today and to disinherit the loved and loving children who will come after us as well. I will not be a party to that and, in my heart of hearts, I know that many of you share that conviction. How could we ever do otherwise?

For my part, there are certain memories that have been burned into my consciousness, concerning my own life experiences, which are very personal but by no means unique. Every day they are becoming increasingly common to those who have experienced the pain and anguish relative to a criminal lack of adequate medical care or social services for ourselves or those we have loved and perhaps lost as a direct result thereof. In that regard, we must recognize that the consequences of that which we have endured have nothing to do with inevitability! In a world of democratic thoughts, goals and objectives, people rule! Never forget that WE are the people!

There are no absolutes in a democratic society that cannot be changed if the people are willing to stand up for change. The prerogative for doing that, believe it or not, is entirely in our hands. We CAN change the way conditions are, but only if we are committed enough to make those changes. How do we do that?

Do what is necessary to make sure that your voices, in sufficient numbers, are heard by those who have a very clear understanding of the voices of a united majority. No one has greater respect for those voices than your elected representatives on both a state and federal level. Their very livelihood and lifestyle depends on what you, their constituents get mad about. Seniornet is an excellent vehicle of discussion for the exchange of viewpoints and opinions by the more mature elements of our society, but communicating those opinions to your elected representatives as well, carries the greater weight of change where it is needed most.

It should be remembered that no matter what the extent of the largesse generously distributed to lawmakers by lobbyists to influence their cause, nothing will instill more fear into the hearts of a wavering lawmaker more than a dozen mailbags from their constituents questioning the sanity of their decisions.

In my minds’ eye, I can remember one somewhat startling television interview with the President-elect in which, with a somewhat smug expression, he stated the following message to a voting population suffering from the anger of disenfranchisement:

“Whether you voted for me or not, I AM your President!”

Perhaps sooner than later he, as well as other members of his administration, will discover another inevitable reality, that in this democratic nation: “People Rule!”

I can remember a petition presented to our Parliament some 20 years ago there were a million signatures which would have pretty much been most of the eligible voters in our country which was a total pop of about 3 million souls. It was against a controversial piece of legislation. The politicians took no notice of it at all and the law was passed! Once they get in they do not care and it is only in the few months going up to an election they start to panic and try to please the voters! The rest of the time as far as I can see they do exactly what they like! They do not give a d----m!

Carolyn

Voices are heard. When the dreaded GST (sales tax) first strarted here they added the tax to feminine hygiene products. The women of Canada set up such a din the government changed its mind. Another time the TV cable company decided to up its cost to the consumer. Again they were forced to change their mind. I am sure that Idris will remember more times. I suffer from a severe case of CRS.

Mike reminds us that we are a Democracy and the "people rule." Would it be relevant at this point to remind ourselves that there are different types of democracies and we are also a capitalist nation? Referring again briefly to Russia which has recently become a democracy and which is trying to emulate the American form of government, consider the following:

Russians with money can occupy Brezhnev's hospital suite. But instead, wealthy Russians are gravitating to places like Meditsina, a 10-story complex a mile north of the Kremlin. From the first-floor family-practice clinic, staffed by Russian doctors and American advisers, to the sixth-floor CAT scanner, to the ninth-floor operating theater -- its walls plated in $225,000 of germ-resistant German stainless steel -- Meditsina caters to a patient's every desire. This month laptops and Internet connections will be offered in every room.

The director of family practice says: "Lots of our patients are business people. They can't afford to lose their connection to the outside world." Like it or not -- and many Russian doctors steeped in the notion of free care say they do not like it -- this is the future of medicine in Russia -- a first-class private health-care system.

The masses are alrady paying for poor health care. The thirst for the ruble has alrady begun to improve care for at least some average Russians.

When I was a young fellow, my elders often tossed about phrases which remain with me to this day. One of them was "Money can't buy health." Did you hear that one? Did you believe it? Do you believe it now?

Robby

Enbrel, DOLPHINDLI, and I find it most helpful, although I also take two Celebrex each day. The combination is almost miraculous in its effectiveness.

MIKE CANTOR writes, "There are no absolutes in a democratic society that cannot be changed if people are willing to stand up for change." That sounds nice, and one can't quarrel with the principle, but I am afraid many of us are a bit naive when it comes to understanding how the system really works. I've been privy to this for many decades, in my former work capacity. I've listened to the inner musings of the "great and near great", who decide what gifts they will bestow on the unwashed masses. This hands on experience has made me most cynical when it comes to thinking that these representatives, whom we vote for, and who are supposed to carry out our wishes, really give a rat's rear end about our concerns.

True, they are interested in being elected and re-elected, but the great majority of these folk are bought and sold by these robber barons to whom I have made previous reference. I've been on trips with these lovely people, whose expenses are paid by powerful interests, along with huge donations, and one would have to be lobotomized not to realize that there is quid pro quo.

The electorate has a very short memory span. At election time a lot of noise is made, the name of the candidate who won previously usually stands out in the mind of the voter, and about 90 to 95 per cent of the time is re-elected with little difficulty. Occasionally some candidate is defeated, if his misdeeds have been so horrible that people finally sit up and take notice, but otherwise, these guys and gals can continue in office almost indefinitely.

I know I sound cynical, but I've been there, and seen it happen over a period of more than forty years. If things get really horrible, we are thrown an occasional bone, but don't count on getting very many. You're a babe in the woods, if you do.

Bob C

I'm not as cynical (all the time) as you are, Roberto, but I do have whole days when I am. An example, to support what you write, of Congress deliberately ignoring the will of the people was played out during Clinton's impeachment. Most of the country did not want him forced from office, but that sentiment fell on deaf ears.

At one time I felt annoyance at the electorate of U.S. not raising their voices in instantces of injustices and unfairness as our govermental powers were practicing. I think I understand better now as I see how my children, now grown, have to spend every waking hour in making a living and attending the demands of having a family.

When done properly these demands on their time leave precious little time to be aware, and therefore; concerned about the broader picture of national concerns.

It is good strategy to divert the populace rather than encourage diversity in watchdog participation.

I'm going to post a link that tells you something about the fact that Mr. Chretien our Prime Minister is meeting with your President today and a working dinner this evening. Somehow i don't thing these two will see eye to eye on a lot. Our P.M. is a Liberal...

They certainly will have lots to talk about from shakes and shingles to the oil fields in our northern waters. I really don't want to think about this much. The elephant will most certainly stomp on the mouse.

cbc - Chretien and Bush meet

Yes, for some reason I feel a need to apoligize for our new president for being so rude to our wonderful neighbor, Canada.

Who knows why he felt no need to be a more gracious leader in a new role. I hope tonight's visitation makes up for this oversight.

I think we should take the US to the World Court. This has been nuts since NAFTA.

I take it all of you know everything there is to know about the complete inclusion of all of North and South America in a trade zone like NAFA. We of course don't have much real power but we do have hydro power, oil, gas and water. I can hardly wait until we are forced into this one.

The Innu are anything but happy as the pipelines will go over the frozen tundra and do damage to the caribou herds. This is of course not only their livelihood but what they eat for a lot of the year.

Just imagine white everywhere and on it a moving cloud of brown. It goes on an on forever as it moves and shifts. Well that my friends are the caribou. Put in a pipeline and they are in trouble. You can't bury pipe up there. There is only perma frost and a it is fragile as the lichen the caribou eat is fragile.

What the heck is the use!

Says Aleksandr L. Podoltsev, one of the Russian hospital's chief doctors, makes no bones about matching the quality of, say, Massachusetts General, "but let's look at the end result: expensive isn't always better. If you only think about making money, then life is deprived of its professional purpose."

The change started with teeth - since the Soviet leader Mikhail S. Gorbachev first loosened controls over dentistry in the late 1980s, 40 percent of all dental clinics have been privatized. Now it is slowly spreading to the rest of the body. Eye specialists have set up a private practice in the regional hospital. Scores of public and semipublic hospitals are dipping their toes in the waters of private medicine - and then jumping in.

Many patients are expatriates whose companies thronged into Russia after the Soviet Union collapsed. Competitors like the American Medical Center and European Medical Center have built fortunes on this foreign wealth. Meditsina has opened American-style family practice clinics and is advised by the University of Iowa which has sent faculty members and medical residents to work there.

This is a nation where paying for medical service and making a profit at it have never quite overcome the notion that all people should be equal. And so capitalist health care is taking another route there -- with a distinctly egalitarian Russian twist.

Does this fit in with deTocqueville's comment (above) beginning: "The object is to secure...?"

Robby

Roberto:

Yours is a very powerful message. It is, however, confirmation of that which has been surmised by some of the American public. Not all of us however, suffer from the degree of naivete , which you attribute to us. It occurs to me that perhaps you need to be reminded of the fact that naivete works both ways. In your forty years of confined exposure to “how the system really works” you have obviously formed the opinion that oppression and legalized abuse of the “unwashed masses” is inevitable and not subject to change in the foreseeable future. I would respectfully suggest to you that the naivete of the populace at large, although you may not believe it to be so, is rapidly being eclipsed by your own, and that of the “robber barons”, as well as those who do not give a “rats’ rear end” about the consequences of their actions.

During the height of the recent “stolen election” fiasco and the defamation of the integrity of the Supreme Court, the intensity of passion of the people of this nation reached heights which must have sent shivers up and down the spines of “the great and the near great who decide what gifts they will bestow on the unwashed masses”. Roberto that is why the highest representatives of both political parties kept making television appeals to emphasize that “we are a nation of laws.” They were not that stupid that they could not see that the nation, one which is heavily armed to boot, was in such a state of fury and frustration at what was being perpetrated on them, that we probably came closer to the initiation of what could have been seismic cataclysmic civil disobedience if not the initiation of passions not visible since the Civil War. Even the word “revolution” was blazoned across the banners of the protestors. Those who believe that this nation will forget all of that which transpired in those crucial days are the ones who are truly naive!

There is, in fact, an undercurrent of change in how people feel about their government today that is centered on a distrust which has been enormously enhanced by a media which is only too eager to expose all the foibles and chicanery which the public always suspected but now knows is proven fact. The status quo is in a process of fragmentation! The shortsightedness of the power structures in government to discern this and make meaningful changes before radicalism takes control will result in their own downfall but not in the downfall of the republic.

The truth of the matter is that: yes, people rule but conditions will have to reach an order of magnitude of such horrific consequence that only a few congressman hanging from the lamp posts in Washington will cause anyone to sit up and take notice of that fact.

The epitaph of a power structure gone mad for profit, and a governmental hierarchy arrogantly not sympathetic to the needs of its’ people will undoubtedly then be:

“America, take back your country!”

Mike

We have been talking about health and money in the same breath and this cannot be done without mentioning the pharmaceutical companies. With the advent of sophisticated new computer technology, pharmaceutical manufacturers have been quietly compiling resumes on the prescribing patterns of the nation's health care professionals, many of whom have no idea that their decisions are open to commercial scrutiny.

These prescriber profiles are the centerpiece of an increasingly vigorous -- and apparently successful -- effort by drug makers to sway doctors' prescribing habits. To create them, pharmaceutical marketers are buying informaion from pharmacies, the federal government and the American Medical Association, which generates $30 million in annual income by selling biographies of every American doctor. The profiles do not contain patient names. But they do offer drug companies a window into one half of the doctor-patient relationship. And they are raising important public policy questions, both about the privacy of doctors' prescribing decisions, and how much commercial pressures influence them.

Do you folks see anything wrong with this?

Robby

Robby, last week a woman arrive at Toronto International Airport from the Congo. She travelled to Hamilton to stay with relatives. A few days ago she was admitted to hospital. It would appear she has the ebola virus. She is in quarantine in the hospital there and a sample has been send to our disease control centre in Winnipeg. In two days we should know if she has it or not.

If you wish to learn more about the ebola story, here is a link.

ebola scare

Throw into the health and government mix, the "deregulation" of utilities!! WE are being scammed by the greedy in this country. Example: The Houston comglomerate which now holds control over the electric production and delivery in California. They saw this coming and jumped in to make a "bundle" at the expense of the customers of the power companies. Sounds very similar to the "big oil trusts" earlier in our history. The people don't matter, just let us make more money!! This is disgraceful! How dare we not care about the "whole body" instead of just the "belly of greed"?

And, speaking of revolution, can we not see that this could happen over not being able to pay for medical care, our utilities, our schools,etc,etc? We get tired of seeing the goings on in Washington where the health care is incredible. No one has a policy even close to the one that Federal employees enjoy. And, guess who's paying for that? You got it! WE ARE!!

And this woman, who may be infected with the ebola virus, stopped for a night in New York before going on to Canada.

A sample of her blood has also been sent to the Centre for Disease control in Atlanta. Canada and the US always do this as these are cross border issues.

I posted here last week but got no reply that the Immigration Department in Ottawa received an envelope that was said to contain a deadly bacteria. The same protocol was put in place.

Gee, thanks for that info, Betty! We really needed that! Just being silly!

How about all the people that she was on the plane with? We should feel sorry for them,too.

That ebola info was from the link Idris posted.

Idris, what happened with the envelope? What were the test results?

Nothing has been reported yet, Betty. It would take a few days to find out and that happened on Friday. I expect we will hear early this week.

Ebola is not east to contract. There must be an exchange of bodily fluids. This is not like untreatable TB which i believe to be a bigger menace. It is air borne, as i understand it. Maybe we should wait for Robby or someone else with some expertise on the matter. I am just relaying what i'm hearing on the radio and have links for.

Ebola has an incubation period of 3 to 9 days. She seemed fine when she arrived, as i understand it. One can go from Congo to Toronto in 36 hours. Gives you pause for thought doesn't it.

"....passed through contact with bodily fluids, such as mucus, saliva and blood. It can be passed by a handshake." This is a quote from a Washington Post article on the ebola virus (that I read just now by entering the words "ebola" and "bodily fluids" into Yahoo search) on how the ebola virus can be transferred from person to person. So, now I'm confused. "Bodily fluids." When speaking of AIDS, I thought bodily fluids meant semen, blood, etc. If saliva has always been on the list, why is it accepted that touching and hugging an AIDS patient is safe? (I'm assuming that it is saliva that is the transferring agent on hands. Maybe something else?)

I've put out a search for our resident epidemic expert, MaryPage. Maybe she knows some more about the spread of the ebola virus. I'm also going to go see what the CDC website has. Geez, now I wish I'd learned how to copy a link to a post. Robby, I might need your help.

One would suspect because different bodily fluids carry more or less of the virus. Don't know i'm afraid. I'm sure we will hear more as the day goes on.

Well, here's the CDC fact sheet link on Ebola virus. I copied it to my email, then here, but don't know how to make it into a live link.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/virlfvr/virlfvr.htm

Oh---it worked.

Well, interesting, CDC writes that humans are not "carriers," only monkeys, that the virus has probably spread from monkey to monkey through the air, but that there is no documentation of that ever happening with humans. Only bodily secretions. Contaminated needles and in less than sterile medical facilities in Africa. In families (in Africa) that are caring for sick members---"feeding and holding." Interesting historical chart of all previous outbreaks---it does give an impression of difficulty of transmission and quick containment.

This ebola stuff isn't exactly on the subject of pharmaceutical issues (our current topic), but I'd rather talk of anything else in the world than how DEA (federal government) documentation of every last pain medicine prescription every doctor writes has made it totally impossible to have a non-political patient-doctor discussion of pain issues. It ends up costing me financially to have large research/hospital pain departments keep my family doctor's file thoroughly documented---because the average doctor lives in fear of being audited by the DEA. You should see the number of articles each year in the American Medical Association's journals encouraging doctors to treat their pain patients and to stop fearing intervention by the DEA. One article (last summer?) actually asserted that all the rumors about DEA audits were myths, that doctors are more likely to be sued by patients or families of patients in pain than to be audited by the DEA. That's not what most doctors believe.

A current extremely important policy question: To what extent are health care prescribing practices influencd by commercial concerns?

The price of prescription medication is high on the national agenda. The impact of marketing on the cost of pharmaceuticals is at issue. While the public discussion has focused largely on the recent trend toward advertising directly to patients, the industry still spens most of its money wooing doctors. Of all the billions that the drug companies spent promoting their products last year, 87 percent was aimed at doctors and the small group of nurse practitioners and physicians' assistant who can prescribe some medications.

Robby

One of the last acts of your previous government was to ban the sale of Canadian drugs to your physicians. Now they said there was a question of safety. That is stupid because these are your very drugs.

We have controls on just how much profit a drug maker can add to a drug.

about what I have said, MIKECANTOR, but I think it takes more than righteous indignation to bring about the changes you, myself, and so many others are looking for. We can get "mad as hell" and swear we're "not going to take it anymore," but still nothing really happens. I can cite so many instances of political corruption over the years, that it would soon reach the point of boredom. Surely you know of the "Boston dig", the cost of which has gone from a couple of billion dollars to well over twelve billion now, and the dig goes on. Surely you have heard of the former chairman of the House committee on Roads, Bud Schuster, where a new four-lane highway just happens to go right by his home in Pennsylvania. Surely you are aware of an airport, whose location I can't remember right now, that has cost multi-millions of dollars, and only has a very few planes landing there every day. I am also sure you know of a bridge out west that has been built, that goes absolutely no where. I am also sure you have read of the USS Cole, recently almost destroyed in Yemen, that just by coincidence is being repaired in Mississippi, where the head honcho of the Senate, Mr. Lott, just happens to be from. Surely you must know of the House and Senate Committes on Public Works, which each year appropriates huge sums of money to pay for projects that are neither wanted nor needed by most folks in the country, but just happen to be asked for and received by our beloved senators and Congressmen from the fifty States. "You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." These are just a few examples of the "pork barrel" that is filled with goodies each year, from the tax base that all of us supply.

And have you read of the action of Brazil, in today's paper, a country that is going to start manufacturing generic versions of the drugs that are essential in the treatment of AIDs, because the drug manufacturers of this country refuse to supply these life saving treatments at anything near a cost that third world countries can afford?

I agree that things have to get so bad that the politicians are in fear of if not their lives, at least their political careers, but I am sorry to say that we are no where near that point, nor do I see in the at least immediate future anything like that point being reached. Most people are far too busy trying to make ends meet, to do much if anything about the royal screwing they are getting.

There are a few voices in the wilderness, but I am afraid they are not being or going to be heard.

Bob C

How right you are Bob.

(

I say go Brazil and let the US drug companies take you to the World Court. I would love to see the drug companies explain why their profits are more important than human lives. Kaching!

Preamble to the Constitution of the United States

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

The insurance companies' approved drug lists (those drugs they will pay for) also affect what doctors prescribe. Those approved drugs are determined by what the drug companies charge. Most patients don't realize that all drugs cannot be easily interchanged with similar drugs.

---------------------------------------------------

Thank goodness for your attitude, Mike. I suspect that some of your can-do approach comes from your having taken action on issues you care about most. My beliefs about where we are as a country, however, lean pretty close to Roberto's outlook. The issue closest to my heart is the progress of women and other groups who have been struggling to gain power over their lives and to reduce forces that cause fear. I'm sorry to say that never in my adult life have I seen the status of these issues more at risk than today.

"What I find most repulsive in America is not the extreme freedom reigning there, but the shortage of guarantees against tyranny". Vol1,pt2,ch.5

As it seems to me we have a Gargantuan possibility of a far reaching tyranny - the medical/pharmaceutical industry!

Cathy has given a quote of deTocqueville which she believes relates very closely to today's medical/pharmaceutical industry or what she calls a "far-reaching tyranny."

What are your reactions?

Robby

I very much agree with Cathy.

I said i would report when the next cases of the flu, some of us had shots for arrived in my area. It is now in Buffalo, New York, according to their health people.

Does that far reaching tyranny mean: Us trying to control world trade practices with things like NAFTA as Idris points out is happening in Canada? or is deToqueville only speaking of things that are controlled here in the US by conglomerates of greedy people?

"The real fear, of course, is that some mysterious infectious disease from a remote and primitive jungle will break out and run rampant in an industrialized city in the Western world......." page 214

"Then came the big one." page 220

"And they had to accept the idea that if there were three filovirus strains they knew about ____ Marburg, Ebola Zaire, and Ebola Sudan ____ there were probably more waiting for the right circumstances to emerge." page 224

There is a statistical kill rate of between 50 and 90 per cent. It seems to vary with the particular outbreak.

They are also called "hemorrhagic fevers", because you get a high fever and then begin to bleed to death internally and from every orifice and even through the pores of your skin.

These are known as the "hot" viruses. As of this moment, there is no cure. They have not even been able to find their origin. Certain monkeys ARE carriers, but they are not the point of origin. They are hunting fiercely and around the clock for a way to inoculate against this virus. There is a certain amount of any human's sputum which sprays out when they speak. Normally, we do not see this, but it has been proved through tests. This alone can spread Ebola, you do not have to touch blood or other secretions.

There you go, Betty! I've given most of my Ebola books to a biologist granddaughter (well, she graduates college with that as her major in May), but still have a few on hand.

There is no news yet, except that the woman is a tad better. She is still in an isolation ward at the Anderson Hospital where they have the proper facilities. The larger hospital is McMaster but they are not equipped to handle the situation. Calls have gone out around the world and the WHO, Atlanta has the samples as does the facility in Winnipeg.

Thanks, MaryPage, I knew you had a growing library on this subject! I didn't realize that monkeys were only the carriers and not the true source. Pretty weird. The cure undoubtedly, she says sarcastically, was in some part of the demolished rain forest. "Hot" viruses?? Yeah, makes sense.

According to a professor of pharmaceutical marketing at the University of Mississippi, the pharmaceutical industry has the best market research system of any industry in the world. He says: "They know more about their business than people who sell coffee or toilet paper or laundry detergent because they truly have a very small group of decision makers, most of whom still are physicians."

Pharmaceutical sales representtives have been a staple of American medicine for decades. Their courtship of doctors is intensive and expensive, and their largess runs the gamut, from trinkets like prescription pads and pens, to staff lunches at hospitals and medical offices and offers of free weekends at resorts.

I see these sales representatives in my area almost daily(my office is surrounded by offices of physicians and is just a hundred yards from the hospital). If they are males, they are dressed impeccably - suit, tie, shined shoes, the whole bit. But most of them are females and they are invariably dressed sexily, whether it be short skirts or clinging dresses with high heels. Would you believe that there is a connection between what they are wearing and the medicine you are prescribed?

Robby

Ya gotta sell, Robby. Sex and glitz sells. Weekends sell too. I had a Dr. that used to do the weekend thingy all the time. Now i have one who would rather be with his kids. He installed his wife as secretary and there is no way one of them is going to get past her.

)

Roberto:

Recognizing the fact that we are of one mind with respect to the political corruption and chicanery that seems to come at us in what seems to be a never ending stream, there is a question which I must ask you which keeps popping into my consciousness.

My devotion to the advocacy of change with respect to what is being perpetrated on the people of this nation by a government which should and does know better, is based on a personal life experience which has formed the foundation of one of the purposes of my life. I am now and will always be haunted by the experience of standing hip deep in the blood and body parts of dying and dead marines who sacrificed the ultimate for their country. I can still see their eyes as the last bit of life left their bodies. More and more these days the question I see in those eyes is: “Mike...is this what we died for?”

My attempts to respond, in what some may deem to be inconsequential efforts in my attempts at the advocacy of change, often make me feel inadequate to the task. None the less, I can no more stop pursuing my advocacy of change, than I can prevent tomorrow’s sunrise. I will continue to pursue that path however, with the last breath that I will draw in this lifetime. Part of my frustration lies in the fact that I, like most of the public, only know what I read in the media.

A few of us however, like yourself, have had the opportunity to work within the system. “to have listened to the inner musings of the great and near great who will decide what gifts they will bestow on the unwashed masses”; “to have been on trips with these people,”; “to have been there and seen it happen over a period of more than forty years”!

You need make no apologies to me, or to anyone else for that matter, for your cynicism. It is well founded in the reality of that which you have personally witnessed. While I share your cynicism to a degree, I do not share your opinion that those “few voices in the wilderness” are not being, or going to be heard. They WILL be heard, Roberto! It is no longer a question of “if” but “when”.

In that regard, my question to you is this: “Based on your personal experience within the system over a period of forty years, have any thoughts ever occurred to you of how the people of this nation could better bring about changes and greater impact that could benefit all of us which may or may not have been exercised thus far?”

Please believe that I ask this question in all sincerity. We, all of us, need all of the help that we can get.

Mike

Mike:--Do you believe the problem is "political corruption" or corporate corruption -- or both?

Robby

Prescriber profiles play a significant role in the courtship. Pharmaceutical marketers say they use the reports to help determine which doctors should be offered certain perks. And the perks themselves worry ethics officials at the American Medical Association, who are trying to discourage doctors from accepting them, even as the association's business side sells information that facilitates the giving of gifts.

Robby

Idris, if she is getting better, it is unlikely it is Ebola. However, it is not impossible. They did find, in the outbreaks there have been, that a few people lived. So far, they have not been able to find out WHY!

If it does turn out to be Ebola, and if there are outbreaks of the disease as a result, it is unlikely they will be HUGE outbreaks because the CDC, (Center for Disease Control) and WHO and numerous other agencies, PLUS the United States Army, are all prepared to jump in and isolate like crazy. And they really, really know exactly how to do this now. We should, of course, feel concern, but not panic.

Robby:

It is political corruption that is feeding, like a cancer, on the concepts, hopes and dreams on which this nation was founded. That cancer is attempting to devour the will and spirit of a people whose courage and conviction established a government unsurpassed and without parallel in the history of civilization. That is easily confirmed by viewing the frustration and resignation that is sometimes expressed in the posts being viewed here during the course of this discussion.

We must not allow ourselves to be dissuaded and to abandon and walk away from the ramparts of democracy and freedom for which so many paid such an enormous price to create and sustain, by political entities who believe that the power of money is greater than who we are as a people and as a nation.

The battle is joined between the best of what this nation is and will become and the forces of political corruption that have deluded themselves into believing that they are all-powerful and that the people are submissive to their chicanery. Some of that became apparent, like the small tip of an enormous mostly submerged iceberg, during the recent election fiasco.

It should be remembered that everything that transpires in the miasma of our body politic is being intently watched by the rest of the people on the face of this earth. They know and understand, even though some of us may forget and falter in our dedicated beliefs, that the future of the world’s civilization depends on how America responds, not only to our own problems, but to those of the rest of the world as well.

Like it or not, we have been entrusted with a great responsibility of an order of magnitude that will test us, as a people, in ways greater than anything we have ever experienced heretofore. Truth and justice for all will prevail to the consternation of corrupt politicians and all those who vilify even our very existence. Our strength is in our people and in their resolve as expressed in our Constitution.

Be proud America! Fear and resignation to what some deem to be inevitable is not a viable option even for the least of us. Our history has already demonstrated that, as it will again.

We will take back our country! If not us...who? If not now....when?

The People Rule!

Mike

Doctors have long used free drug samples to let patients try new treatments or to start patients on medications quickly while they are waiting for prescriptions to be filled. But now doctors, administrators and pharmacists at hospitals say they worry they cannot control the increasing amount of free medicines that are doled out by pharmaceutical representatives.

Worried about safety and rising drug costs, a small but growing number of hospitals, clinics and other health care organizations across the country are banning free samples of brand name prescription drugs, or limiting what samples their doctors can accept from drug companies. Sammples are helping to inflate drug costs because the drug companies tend to give out samples of the newest brand name drugs, which are often the most expensive. The companies rarely give away samples of lower-cost generic drugs. And if the sample medicine works for the patient, the administrators say, physicians will often prescribe the higher-cost drug, even though a generic drug may work just as well.

Does your physician prescribe generic or brand-name medicines for you?

Robby

MaryPage the woman is still unconscious. She showed no symptoms of anything alarming until she entered hospital. Indeed they first suspected Menengitis. The lab results are expected late today or some time tomorrow.

Every new President lets congress threaten Canada. Trent Lott fired the first shot over the bow of our sovereignty yesterday. Bush stated yesterday that he, "would have to convince Congress to keep trade doors open to Canada." Thanks bunches!!!!

Trent Lott will now start treating us like the 51st State to get us to ship more raw materials rather than value added. You want our resourse so badly and knowing we are a small country will launch court cases through the NAFTA agreement. What swell guys you are!

Then again we are used to being beaten up by our bully neighbour to the south. The threats are out as a new President and Congress takes power. Every time the same thing. Then again Americans always have to be right and flex their elephant muscles. You only think of yourselves and force whatever you want on the rest of us.

We are your best friends always and your biggest trading partner. Still you threaten if you don't get what you want. I remind you all that we are not the 51st State but an independant country and your friend. With friends like you, we don't need enemies.

Each new government brings new threats to our sovereignty and frankly i'm sick of it.

A friendly reminder that we have some excellent political discussion groups on Senior Net for those who would like to get into names of politicians and parties. Our goal here is to compare what we see in Democracies today with what deTocqueville saw 170 years ago.

Robby

Idris, how strongly can I put this? Your contempt for specific things from our president does not surpass my contempt. I don't know what's worse, to be here and powerless or in Canada and powerless, but you often put words to my feelings of powerlessness. Remember, please, that this country is made up of many individuals--not all of us think as one person. At least you live in a country that makes our liberals look like conservatives---as you've often noted. Often, I envy your situation.

I second that! Idris, MOST of us love our Canadian neighbors and wish you all well and think of you as brothers and sisters.

IDRIS, I don't really think all those dreadful things you are predicting about the relationships we in the United States have with our wonderful Canadian cousins are ever going to happen. Don't believe all that rhetoric you're hearing about Canada becoming the 51st state. We may be the world bully, but more likely we're the world savior. Despite the dreadful political situation that we have going right now in this country, Canada is perhaps our closest and dearest friend, so please relax. We've got enough troubles of our own without creating more stupid and useless policies that would be detrimental to your truly wonderful democracy.

MIKECANTOR, you ask 'Have any thoughts occurred to you of how people could better bring about changes and greater impact that could benefit all of us which may or may not have been exercised thus far."

That's a pretty tall order, and I don't think I have any specific answer to it. I know we both were around before and during World War II. I am sure you remember how close we came to becoming a fascist or perhaps communist state, before our entry into the war. Our country was on the verge of economic collapse. There were demagogues all around us, fascists and communists, appealing to those "unwashed masses" I have previously mentioned. I believe we were pretty close to total economic collapse, before our entry into the war.

I truly believe that the time when the people of this country can bring about major change is when we face a really great economic or political crisis that causes ALL OF US to pay attention. You know how Roosevelt came along, like a knight in shining armor, when the country was in such desperate straits. It takes something like that to wake the people up. Otherwise, most go about their business, trying to get by in their day to day lives. We keep our heads down, nose to the grindstone, and let others who make all the noise determine the direction in which our country goes. Right now it is those loud mouths who are in the driver's seat. When 100 per cent or something close to it of the electorate wakes up and goes to the voting booths, then and only then will there be any major change. Right now less than half of those eligible to vote do so, and our politicians are elected by perhaps 20 or so percent of those. I don't hold out much hope for the system to change, unless as I've said, something terrible happens that wakes all of us up. Wish I could be more optimistic, but from experience over many, many years, I can't.

Bob C

Roberto, I respectfully ask you to believe Idris when she writes of the detrimental effects of NAFTA on Canada and other issues. She isn't just "believing all that rhetoric" she hears. For many months, she has filled us in on pretty complex issues regarding how the U.S. government's actions directly affect Canada. She's extremely well informed and we've learned a textbook's worth of information on Canadian government, politics, etc. She and others from Canada have opened our eyes.

"In America," deTocqueville says above, "the passion for well-being is general. It is felt by all."

According to many physicians, there is huge pressure on the part of patients to have physicians hand out prescriptions for every cough and sniffle, even when it made no real sense. Their constant request is: "Do something to make me feel better, now." Yet, while many of these patients show an outright rejection of pscyhotropic medications ("don't mess with my mind"), they are almost dangerously accepting of the psychological side effects of drugs given for physical ailments.

Is the desire for "well-being" really a passion on the part of most people and are they paying very little attention as to how this is done?

Robby

I don't know, Robby. I do not spend much time thinking about medications, except for their expense. In my family, we are not big pill takers, and this goes way back. I don't make any attempt to keep up with what other people do, or what their mind set is in choosing to do it. For myself, I take only what the doctor says I absolutely must have, such as the thyroid medication to replace the fact that my thyroid was removed. I understand I would die without that. I do not follow the popular remedies for this, that and the other; and I have no interest in doing so.

Robby - I have been pretty stubborn in what I would allow to happen to me in the health field. Recently, as I think most in this forum know, I had some physical break downs that I was unable to resist the medications available for those symptoms. In other words, I became trapped. I am now presently on medication (sounds better than being on drugs - right?)that I MUST take in order to keep a reasonable grasp on life. If this isn't tyranny I don't know what is.

It is so difficult to make a statement these days that resound the personal determination that - I will or will not - adhere to a certain cure available at that time. It bothers me greatly that I have given over my control of self-determination to others. Is this the way of the future or are there alternatives on the horizon for us?

If others control, through drugs, what happens to us and our personal freedom - where does that leave for us as a authentic being?

Alexis deTocqueville speaks of "well-being." Is there any way we can at all speak about health without referring to what has been called "The Quiet Scourge?" The AIDS virus is surging like a prairie fire around the world. We are not talking about a national epidemic but a pandemic. H.I.V. ranks among history's worst epidemics -- 21 million have died and 36 million more are now infected. Could deTocqueville have envisioned in his wildest thoughts the extent of illness of any kind?

Said the top AIDS official in the previous administration: "People say that the more we learn about H.I.V., the more we realize we don't know a whole lot."

What should any of us do? Can anything be done? Is anything significantly being done either in the various Democracies or in any nation of the world?

Robby

A spokesman for President Bush said he intended to close the federal offices on AIDS and on race relations. Then, it was reported in several papers that he "changed his mind," and in other papers that it was an inaccurate statement. Since the statemnt came from a Bush spokesman, not from "whitehouse sources," it makes you wonder. I guess this means we won't be doubling the amount spent on AIDS research any time soon.

The incentive to fight those fragments of our social and physical well being can only be as strong as those people awakened to the potential of failure if not implemented.

I doubt we will ever reach that kind of forsight.

The national news on CBS and NBC both just reported that the campaign stated those offices Would be closed, but the White House reported today that there has been a change and they Will Not be closed.

Hmmmmmm......

I just read a report that the woman does NOT Ebola virus. Here's the first paragraph of the story:

TORONTO (Reuters) - A woman lying sick in a Canadian hospital after arriving from a central African country does not have the deadly Ebola virus but could have another type of tropical viral hemorrhagic fever, government health officials said on Wednesday.

When H.I.V. was isolated in 1984, the secretary of health and human services promised an AIDS vaccine within a few years. Seventeen years later prospects for an AIDS vaccine still appears remote. More than 30 experimental H.I.V. vaccines have been given to people in the earliest phases of testing.

An effective vaccine is crucial to controlling this pandemic. How does the health field work within a Democracy? Is there something within this form of government that leads (or does not lead) toward combatting serious diseases? The Soviet Union's form of government was able to put Sputnik into space before we were able to do it. In this battle between humans and this powerful virus, where do you see us going?

Robby

I received this article from Pat Scott this morning and thought someone here might want to read it. Ebola Virus in Hamilton?

Also, she sent this article about Toronto's garbage traveling through SW Ontario: <Toronto's Garbage: Want it going though our area?

Thank you, Ann. Following is a quote from the article: "If confirmed, this would be the first case of Ebola in North America.

Health officials are downplaying the risk to the public, saying the likelihood of a large-scale outbreak is low because hemorrhagic fevers can only be transmitted by close contact with bodily fluids."

This is important. A Democracy is supposedly an open form of government. We want to know what is going on. At the same time it is easy to work ourselves into a frenzy if we do not cooly examine the situation.

What do you folks here see as the relationship between Public Health issues and Democracy?

Robby

I don't doubt that Idris sincerely believes what she has posted in regard to how NAFTA affects Canada in its relationship to the United States, but I can't believe it's all bad. When I go to the supermarket, I buy all kinds of produce that was grown in Canada, and I am sure that does not make American farmers happy, but it is a two-way street. I know Canada is one of the largest if not the largest of importers of American goods, so we do benefit in that way.

I do know that there are always innocent parties who are injured in situations like this, but there are also others who benefit greatly. I don't think any country should live in isolation. Afer all, we are all on the same planet, and in world trade, it is essential that nations interact with each other, not just verbally but in commerce. When a country tries to rely on protectionism, trouble always follows. I hope our two countries never go down that disastrous path.

Bob C

Roberto:

Do you see a connection between Public Health and produce that we buy from other nations? And how do you think deTocqueville would have reacted to this?

Robby

Roberto, I appreciate where you're coming from and cannot (without help) debate the NAFTA issues with you. I just wanted to give you an idea of part of the history of this forum and what many of us have commented on---our appreciation to those in Canada who have patiently and painstakenly taken us through Canadian history, government, politics, local issues. Your post to Idris seemed to dismiss her comments out of hand---"don't believe rhetoric" and telling her to "relax." I'd feel the same if someone wrote to you that you should not believe all the rhetoric you hear of what goes on in congress.

Roberto:--You are comparatively new to this discussion group. Many of the topics you bring up have been previously discussed in this forum. Newcomers and some old-timers might find it helpful to click onto the three links above to learn our thoughts.

If you are interested in our past discussions on the political conventions, the political debates, education in America, the work force in America, diverse populations in America, and the origin of America, you will find this by clicking onto Democracy in America - Part I.

If you are interested in our past discussions on the election, the judicial system, the system of checks and balances, and related items, click onto Democracy in America - Part II.

If you re interested in the Media in Democracies and the Family in Democracies, click onto Democracy in America - Part III.

Currently we are discussing Public Health in Democracies and the thoughts of Alexis deTocqueville who was most aware of the sense of "well-being" that he noticed when he came over here in 1831.

Robby

Roberto:--An additional thought to help you further enjoy this discussion group which, as you know, comes under the Books & Literature section of Senior Net. Many of the people who participate or "lurk" here have copies of deTocqueville's book, "Democracy in America" and refer to it as we discuss. A paperback version of the book can be obtained for less than $7. For those who do not have the book, they find it helpful to refer constantly to the quotes of deT above which are changed periodically to reflect our sub-topic of the moment.

Your comments relating to his thinking are welcome.

Robby

I know Bob C (Roberto) well; well enough to know he's a very intelligent man who needs no one to come to his defense, but I do think we're coming down on him a little hard. I re-read his posts in their entirety and see nothing at all dismissive, insulting or offensive in anything he said. Taken out of context some of his words might seem that way. Taken out of context some of the words any of us say might seem that way. However, as far as I know a congenial agreement or disagreement with no intent to hurt and a reaction of objectivity and not over-sensitivity have been the watchword of this discussion. I hope it continues this way.

Mal

I have become reluctant to criticize another country. We Americans do that too easily. I find myself ashamed of us for being such braggarts. Arrogant Americans is becoming a definition of U.S.A. Surly we can avoid such an assessment by being willing to admit that we are becoming extra-sensitive to criticism from other countries. Being Americans DOES not make us "All Knowing"!

With the rapid flow of information and ideas available in the internet we must be more discreet in our declarations that we have the answer for everything. We do not. The pooling of information, and governments sharing that information will speed the answers to many world problems.

I wince when I hear and read U.S. propaganda that scolds another country for what we have, in the past, been guilty. Our history is full of big mistakes - we are still making them. We have not solved racism, poverty, and the answer to peace, or rather, the lack of it. I admire the Canadians, and wish we could learn from them without becoming critical of our country or theirs. Just to have the freedom to discuss mutual problems should not make either country nervous or touchy.

Are we smug because AIDS and MAD COW disease is not a national problem yet? We had better not be! What is a problem in other countries can become, very easily, a serious problem in ours.

I will shut up now!

Maybe with the resistance to super bugs and the epidemics of almost incurable rain forest viruses it is time to bring in old fashioned quarrantine methods and travel restrictions! Maybe there is too much freedom of travel! They dont spray aircraft like they used to either.

Carolyn

Carolyn:--How would you go about restricting travel in the name of Public Health?

Robby

I can remember when I had diphtheria. The public health department came and put a quarantine sign on our house. I couldn't go back to school until they allowed me.

The lady in Canada who was suspected to have contracted the ebola virus had it ruled out. It isn't unreasonable to rule out a particular diagnosis especially when a person is displaying symptoms that could indicate more than one disease. One thing to think about is that ebola is not airborne and even in Africa it is not that rampant.

As for AIDS, it is still preventable. Although Of course, the newborn can't do anything about it crossing the placental barrier. I can remember the first patients I took care of that must have had AIDS. (That wasn't the name given to the condition they had. That wasn't part of our vocabulary yet.) It is not always easy to develop a vaccine for a particular disease.

Here is an interesting article from the NYTimes today or yesterday on what a company in India is offering to Africa. <India Offers Aids Drugs>

A crucial step in developing any vaccine is knowing which antibodies produced in response to a vaccine indicate the greatest likelihood of protection. The vaccine industry is trying to develop H.I.V. vaccines without having a clue if the subtypes are important to protction.

The president of the group that sponsored the international AIDS conference in South Africa last year said he did not believe an AIDS vaccine would be available for at least 10 years. He added: "We still don't have the knowledge to create an effective vaccine. I don't know if we will ever have one because the problems are so great."

Please absorb the power of that statement. In this battle between human beings and the AIDS virus, what are the odds of our winning this world-wide battle?

Robby

Do we as individuals on a day to day basis have any effect whatsoever on Public Health or is that all up to the corporate, governmental, and medical/health world? As we sit in our own homes or make trips to other places, does what we do affect the size of epidemics? Or are we helpless and left with nothing to do but complain?

Robby

Robby, in response to your 238, I believe we are helpless against the viruses present on and in this planet. I think the odds favor our going on for some time, but those tiny machines that clone themselves, at the same time that they are mutating like mad, plus the bacteria and fungi, own this globe and even outweigh us, literally. I would put my money on them obliterating the human race. This is, of course, a moot point, since neither of us will be around to say to the other: "I told you so!"

As for your 239, my opinion is that we, as a society, put too much faith in the "they" who are taking care of us and supposedly will not allow anything to happen to us. The fact is, we do not want to put up the money for "them" to do their jobs and TAKE care of us, the public; we do not hire enough people to inspect our meat, grains, and other foodstuffs, to control our water and air purity, to monitor train and plane sanitation, to safeguard our hospitals and nursing homes, and so on and on. Bottom line, we want a free ride. We want heaps and heaps of free cash to buy into the over-materialized society we are living in. We prefer "things" to safety and profits to peace of mind. If we could content ourselves with a simpler lifestyle, we might turn around the environmental hazards closing in on us, and prolong the lifetime of our species as a whole. My bet: we are too stupid and grasping to do so.

Didn't I read (someone correct me) that the difficulty with creating an AIDS vaccine is that the virus is always changing, gradually, that it will be virtually impossible to stop it, because there is no definitive it.

So well put, MaryPage, on how our need for more, more, more will surely be our undoing. I had not thought of it exactly that way, but, sure, our ever increasing need for better, bigger, faster uses up our resources and is antithetical to safer, cleaner, etc. You really made me think.

--------------------------------------------------

And you made me think, too, Mal. I think I was reacting to the difference in the tone of argument between Roberto-Mike disagreements and Roberto's response to Idris. I'm as guilty as the next person in misunderstanding this limited medium of voiceless printing on the screen---no body language or tone of voice. But I was picking up a change in quality (method?) of disagreement (and of course I could have misread that, too). Mike and Roberto have disagreed fiercely on issues but allowed respect for the other person's position. When Roberto responded to Idris, there seemed (to me) to be a discounting of her position ("don't believe all that rhetoric"....just relax, etc.)----which, had he read the hundreds of posts from her that others have, he would have known that she's as qualified to speak on those issues as he is of the inside workings of congress. It's a catch 22, because I probably sounded like what I was accusing Roberto of. Discounting. And, I might not have written to him at all, but I'd just given Idris a hard time for lumping all U.S. citizens together (even though sometimes we deserve it).

Underneath all of THAT, if you can tolerate a further analysis, is that I often agree with Idris, content and tone, and I had that same identification with Roberto's first few posts. As I wrote, I often feel as cynical as he does---and am always glad to find out I'm not out here all by my lonesome feeling that way. (It's that "worthy contender" thing---he's worth arguing with.)

Lastly, for anyone who's just joined us in the last few months, I am rarely out of step with Mal's view of things, respect her forthrightness, agree AND argue with her joyfully, learn from her always, and if anyone can stop me in my tracks with a why-did-you-do-that, it's Mal. So, thanks.

Trust between government and the govern has been disappearing now for the last ten years. The govern feel the government lies to them in order to escape blame for negligence, or the public feels the government will do anything to avoid what the government would call "panic".

Complete honesty doesn't seem to be a tool of governments anymore, if ever. Maybe the freedom of the internet will, eventually, force the government to be honest with its people. I truly feel we, the "unwashed" - as Mike likes to put it, are capable of sound action if we can depend on truth telling. It is the suspicion that "we" are being lied to that make us go "bonkers".

Robby - my comments above are in response to your question #239. It seems to me we get off track rather easily in this forum, no fault of yours. It becomes easy to ignore a prompt that is trying to guide and widen a discussion. I have been guilty of that alot!

asks: "Do you see a connection between Public Health and produce that we buy from other nations? And how do you think de'Tocqueville would have reacted to this?"

First of all, let me say I see a connection between public health and produce that we buy not only from other nations, but that we buy from the good old USA. How many times have we heard of poison on the apples, cranberries, cantaloupe, lettuce, sprigs and sprouts, peaches -- well you get the idea -- that are grown right here? What about those cattle that are being kept in isolation in Texas -- last I heard that was still part of the USA -- that were perhaps fed banned feed that could cause Mad Cow Disease? Yes, there is always a danger from anything we eat, no matter where it comes from. Hopefully these matters are being handled properly by those who are supposed to handle them. If we were to take to heart all the dangers that are out there, I think most of us would crawl under a blanket, curl up in the fetal postion, thumb in mouth, and never get up again. The world is full of danger, but MOST people manage to live long and productive lives, despite all the dangers that are out there. Yes, life itself is dangerous, but we go on despite all its many pitfalls.

About how de'Tocqueville would have reacted to all this, well, the last I heard, the man is dead, and not being clairvoyant, I can't really say. Now that is supposed to be a humorous remark, so please don't take it seriously.

I also want to assure Idris, for whom I have the greatest respect, that I was not talking down to her in the slightest. I have a high regard for her and her views, but we all come from different backgrounds, and fortunately differ on many things. There are no rules we can follow that will make for a perfect world; only opinions. Hopefully it will always be that way.

Bob C

Roberto:--deTocqueville is definitely dead but he was a most astute person and is being quoted regularly in newspapers and magazines in relation to what is currently happening. Many of his remarks give the feeling that if he wasn't clairvoyant, he was at least a man with vision.

AIDS is the leading cause of death for African-Americans betwen the ages of 25 and 44. The Centers for Disease Control now believe that one in every 50 black American men is infected H.I.V. While blacks are just 13 percent of the U.S. population, more than half of all new H.I.V. infections occur among blacks. Blacks are 10 times more likely than whites to be diagnosed with AIDS and 10 times more likely to die from it.

Robby

Mary Page, et al--

About those 2 offices Bush was going to close. I don't even remember which is which, but one of them will stay open, with a greatly reduced staff; the other will be closed and its functions dispersed among other administrative groups.

With the apparent ferocity that GB is showing in undoing many of the good things that have occurred over the last 8 years, I think he stands a pretty good chance of REALLY mucking things up. I was truly overjoyed when I saw a chart of what that income tax cut will mean to people in my income bracket. A BIG FAT ZERO.The chart showed the bracket as incomes between 12K and 45K. Current tax rate is 15%, future tax rate is also 15%. As one speaker put it the other day, the rich guy will have enough to buy a Lexus; the little guy MAY be able to afford a muffler. At the risk of being shouted down, I still think the country as a whole would drive more positive benefits if the so-called (and so far, 'predicted' budget surplus) were to be used to oversee the alleviation of some of our pressing problems in the areas of health care and education.

In some cases, entire African-American families are being wiped out by AIDS. This removes the notion that AIDS is a disease that primarily affects gay white males. Black women, for example, are becoming infected at a frightening rate. They account for 64 percent of all new infections among women in the United States.

Robby

During the Olympic games, travellers from the Northern Hemisphere brought flu down here, We ended up having some flu cases at the start of summer. We also get viruses we have never had here since we have such huge numbers of travellers now coming from our Asian neighbours. It may be OK now but what happens when infections outrun the antibiotics. We are told we have quite a few problems now which are antibiotic resistant such as the strain of TB! Will we go back to the time when people died from this awful disease? Makes one think!

Carolyn

Antibiotics cannot be used on viruses anyway. Only on the secondary infections that sometimes occur, as these are bacterial in nature. There is no medicine for a virus. There are immunizations for some viruses. As Betty pointed out earlier, viruses mutate, and so it is that dedicated souls are working around the clock to identify the latest flu strains to emerge and come up with something to combat them! Then these same valiant persons hold their collective breath hoping the flu shots we get in the fall have covered the anticipated strains of virus.

Most of us, surly, agree that we cannot live forever. Some countries seem to have a better handle on the health of its citizens. Where would we stand in such a measurement. For the life of me I can't come up with a way I want to die. Geeeeeez!

There was wide denial in the black community for years about the spread of AIDS among African-Americans, in part because of the powerful stigmas attched to AIDs, homosexuality and IV drug use. Enormous numbers of blacks with the virus suffered in silence and shame, unable to tell their families or even their ministers.

At the same time, the attention of the wider public and the bulk of the services related to H.I.V. and AIDS were geard to the community of white gay men.

Some voices are now being raised in opposition to this raging epidemic in the black community. The consciousness of the black clergy is slowly being elevated. Politicans are beginning to speak out. Julian Bond, chairman of the N.A.A.C.P., has been trying to get out the following, absolutely crucial message: "This has become a black disease. Stop thinking about this as something that happens to somebody else. Because it happens to us."

Are we as individuals helpless to do anything about this epidemic?

Robby

To: Cathy Foss; Re: Yr. Post #242 of 2/9/01:

I must make a comment on something you said in the referenced post.

“I truly feel we, the “unwashed” – as Mike likes to put it,....”

Please forgive me if what I am about to say seems like “nit picking” and it certainly is not to meant to reflect on your posts or the opinions you have so eloquently expressed which I highly respect and value.

The phrase “the unwashed” is NOT a phrase that I like to use. It actually originated in Roberto’s post #165 in the second paragraph where he makes reference to the “unwashed masses”. In the dialogues between Roberto and myself, where I have used that phrase, I have always utilized it in quoting Roberto and have been careful to surround it with quotation marks.

I would hope that Roberto intended the phrase to reflect on “the inner musings of the great and near great” he mentions in the same sentence, to whom he was privileged to listen during his tenure as a former employee of the United States Congress.

I personally consider it a derogatory phrase and it made me extremely uncomfortable to see it used in this discussion, no matter what the intent. To have it ascribed to something, that, as a phrase, I am enamored of using, is particularly uncomfortable for me.

There are probably those out there who are saying: “Well...that’s his problem!” And you are, of course, correct! I confess to a high degree of sensitivity as to what participants in this discussion think of my opinions whether we are in agreement or not. I just wanted to set the record straight.

Mike

Africa is not the only region ravaged by AIDS. India says it has four million infected but may have five times as many. The Caribbean has the second-highest rate of infection after sub-Saharan Africa. More than one in 50 adults is H.I.V.-positive. The epidemic there is spread primarily heterosexually. In Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, the number of infected nearly doubled in just the last year alone.

This is a plague of a severity not seen since the Black Death killed at least a quarter of Europe in the 14th Century. Is there anything that we, as individuals, can do about this?

Robby

Mike, dear friend, I have to smile at your indignation about the figurative use of the term, "unwashed masses". That term, "unwashed masses", has been used in journalism and literature for centuries to signify the deprived. There's one unwashed mass right among you, you know. Because of my October leg injuries, I have not been able to shower for 14 weeks. Anybody want to come and give this poor, deprived, still-in-a-wheelchair woman a hand?

It might interest some of you to know that there are people in Trinidad who think aloe vera is a preventative and cure for AIDS. Because of this, they refuse to use any other sort of protection or take medication available to them. I learned this recently when I researched a short story recently discussed here in Books and Lit. I wonder how much superstition, ignorance and myth enter into the spread of AIDS?

Mal

Mal:--Concerning your comment about "ignorance" related to AIDS, consider the situation in South Africa. South Africa has done nothing to treat AIDS. The biggest obstacle is the president who has inexplicably decided that he is not convinced H.I.V. causes AIDS. It has become politically incorrect to talk about treating AIDS in South Africa. His comments delayed the institution of efven a program to cut mother-to-child transmission.

Here, in this forum, we discuss what is going on in Democracies. South Africa is a Democracy. Are there any here who believe that the attitude toward AIDS in Africa has no connection whatsoever with what we in our Democracies are doing or not doing?

Robby

Robby, I am aware of the hard-to-understand attitude of the president of South Africa. It's not only hard to understand; it's hard to believe when many people in that country are dying from AIDS.

Of course the attitude there affects people and what's done elsewhere. It is not only some in South Africa who feel this way; there are people here in the United States who are completly ignorant about this terrible disease and who refuse to listen to explanations about its dangers and what it is.

Sadly, it reminds me of people who still today do not believe the Holocaust happened in World War II.

Mal

Gary Moore has opened a most interesting discussion group. It revolves around a very short but exceedingly important paragraph -- the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States. Those who would like to participate are invited to click onto PREAMBLE TO CONSTITUTION and click onto the "Subscribe" button at the bottom when you get there.

Robby

America's new Secretary of State has said that Africa's AIDS epidemic is a national security issue for the United States.

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Thank you, Robby, for continuing to ask, is there anything we can do regarding the pandemic of AIDS in the Black communities around the world. Including India and other countries, I wonder if this has become the disease of people of color. Which explains, in my mind, why so many either don't know of the devastation in the Black families....or don't care, as usual. The world is experienced in turning a blind eye to what is killing people in African countries and in African-American families.

One sentence from one of your previous posts particularly jumped out at me....the one saying that someone Black is 10 times more likely to die from AIDS. So, help is not reaching those who have AIDS...or they are not being tested while still in the HIV-positive stage...so many barriers, maybe even discrimination, surely silence.

All of this...if we'd let it...could be a mirror to how little we value the lives of our Black family neighbors.

What can we do? Inform ourselves. Read. Discuss. Stay informed. Write our congress-people. Contribute money. Read Black authors; stay open to learn how we're not seeing or understanding. Next time someone talks about gays and AIDS, speak up about what we know of the Black families. Get clear within ourselves that we ultimately are missing out, missing something, when we can't find a reason not to care about this.

All of us in this forum have read various remarks by Alexis deTocqueville commenting upon America's racial discrimination.

Is there a correlation between discrimination and what America is doing (or not doing) regarding AIDS?

Robby

Mike, I knew that your use of "unwashed masses" was a quote from Roberto---which was a quote when he used it, too. I'm glad you corrected the misunderstanding, though, because we always need good models to follow on how to correct or disagree with another poster---carefully, and with grace, as you did.

Dear me, I do get somewhat perturbed when I refer to what I think is a universally understood phrase or two, but much to my chagrin find that such is not the case. 'Unwashed masses" is not anything I originated, but is a phrase that is commonly used, and has been for quite some time, in reference to the poor and downtrodden of this world. It never occurred to me that it might be misunderstood. I shall in future attempt to "keep it simple," etc., a phrase that was used during Clinton's first run for the presidency. Now I didn't make that one up either. I hope no further explanation is necessary.

In reference to ROBERT B. IADULUCA's concern about the spread of AIDS among blacks, both here and in Africa, this is indeed a terrible threat to all, with race playing perhaps a somewhat greater role. According to news reports as recently as yesterday, there is now a spreading "fatigue" among the white homosexual population here in the United States, as it concerns precautions necessary during sexual intercourse. With the treatments now available, they are using less and less protection, which is now resulting in an increase in this dreadful disease among this group also. The only way of stopping its spread completely is abstinence, and that is an impossibility. A slight mutation in the virus's makeup, and it can become an airborne plague, which would lead to an epidemic that would make the black plague look like a sneeze.

Bob C

Roberto says:--"The only way to stop the spread of AIDS completely is abstinence, and that is an impossibility."

Following the guidance of my college professor teaching logic, putting the these two together means: "It is impossible to stop the spread of AIDS." Let us then continue. The current pandemic will spread even more.

Where and when is the end?

Robby

Robby, when you look back at history, and indeed even our own lifetime, it seems to fit a pattern that blacks do not want to admit to there being an AIDS problem. The same race, in our lifetime, has been terribly conflicted over the sickle cell disease problem, dragging their heels about being tested, etc. This appears to be a flaw in all human beings, not only blacks. Again, in my lifetime people WHISPERED that someone had cancer! Seriously, I remember this well. Venereal diseases were not spoken of until WWII, and then not on the homefront. There have been many, many hush hush epidemics. When we were reading about the 1918 Flu here on SeniorNet, we discovered that one of the principal causes of the lack of information about that epidemic in our archives is the fact that people were so buttoned up about it.

We humans fear what we are ignorant of. Education must ALWAYS precede any other measures taken to combat any disease.

In the meantime, the virus replicates and replicates and replicates day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, second by second, ------.

Robby: This may be nitpicking your statement about the inevitability of the AIDS pandemic but, strictly speaking, it doesn't actually require complete abstinence to prevent the spread. Monogamy would suffice. But I suppose that is an impossibility too. At any rate, it is hardly a pragmatic answer for the world although it is for millions of us.

More to the point is the denial that many previous posts allude to. Someone mentioned it reminded them of the denial of the holocaust. I would add the denial of global warming, of evolution...the list is endless.

There is a difference between healthy skepticism and denial of inconvenient evidence. (remember the OJ trial?) I wonder if the pervasiveness of commercialism and advertising in our lives (and our politics) doesn't teach us it's ok to disbelieve what we hear from "reliable sources".

The marketing experts have learned not to appeal to our intellects with any factual information, but to aim their messages to our emotional sides, our egos, our fears, our libidos, our feelings. Whether it is a political candidate, or merchandise or whatever they are selling, the obective is to make us "feel" good about the way we mark the ballot or add to our credit card debt. They don't want us to "think" about what we are doing.

So most of the world is not like present company who have somehow managed to reach advanced age and retain the use of their intellect. We can make that distinction between skepticism and denial of the inconvenient that so many of our fellow citizens cannot seem to make.

One ray of hope is that we are more likely to vote than the others, something that the marketers of political candidates don't seem to have caught onto.

Sorry, I digress, back to what to do about AIDs. I understand that in Cuba, where civil rights are not important, that those who were HIV positive were quarantined in special camps. I wonder if that was effective at all. Probably not, but if it has been effective and saved lives, is it justified? A moral dilemma that has implications beyond Cuba. On the other side of that argument is that the breeding ground for resistant tuberculosis seems to have been the overcrowded prisons in Russia.

I wish we had answers for these problems. I wish we could tust our leaders too.

"Where and when is the end?"

Robby, maybe this is the coming of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse--Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death.

Bill H

Denizen:--Regarding my "statement" about the inevitability of the AIDS pandemic, please note that I just continued the stream of logic given by someone else. I was not the one suggesting complete abstinence. Following that I asked a question.

Your thought, if I understood it correctly, was that "monogamy would suffice to prevent the spread." But then you added that "that is an impossibility too." So that brings us back to where we were.

I take your point that there are many denials - not only AIDS, but holocaust, global warming, etc., etc.

Your point about what is done in Cuba brings us strongly back to the question of the relationship between AIDS and Democracies. The illustration I gave earlier regarding accomplishing things was the Soviet Union which place a satellite in space before any of the Democracies. Now you call to our attention that in Cuba where civil rights are ignored, those who are HIV positive are quaranteed in special camps.

In this forum where we are discussing Democracy in America and other nations, could we possibly be saying that a Democratic form of government is not always the best for the populace?

Robby

MIKE- I was most concerned that I left the impression on your reference to the "unwashed" as belittling. I was completely knowledgeable about the history of the phrase. I have used the phrase many times in conversations, and in posting. This was my way of acknowlegeing your reference. I do see where (Now!) you could take offense. Please believe me when I say no offense was meant or taken. I must say I have enjoyed the posts you have made and hope you will continue. I like the way you think!

Dear Cathy:

There is absolutely no reason for you to feel that you have to apologize to me for anything since I did not take offense at anything you said. I think I know something of that which is in your heart from your previous posts, enough to recognize that no offense was meant or taken. My post was solely intended to establish my particular position on the use of the word “unwashed”. I am as familiar with the history of the word as are others participating in this discussion. That does not nor will it ever change my gut feeling that it is derogatory in intent. There is no one on this web site, no matter how articulate they may believe themselves to be, that will ever change my opinion on that issue.

While I recognize the fact that I am not infallible and perfectly capable of making some errors of judgement, I also reserve the right to be as opinionated on certain issues as I choose to be as long as there is no evidence of deliberate intent to offend anyone as was the case in this instance.

I can only add that if there is a classification of citizens who must be considered as “unwashed” then I proudly take my place among them!

Mike

So, Mike, you considered yourself deprived? Welcome to the club.

More to the point, I have lost only two friends to AIDS. One was a well-known restauranteur in this town, well-respected in the community, a man who was considered by chef Craig Claiborne to be one of the finest cuisiniers in this country. Bill Neal was his name, and if you're lucky you went to his restaurant when he was there and own one of his cookbooks.

Another was the nephew of Gene Tunney, remember him? Gene Tunney was a world champion boxer for those who don't know. We called his nephew "Tunney" after his uncle.

I worked doing billing for Tunney at the Catering Company of Chapel Hill a while, but my strongest memory of him is at a Christmas party given by my daughter. He came into my living quarters and carefully inspected all of the artwork done by my friends and me and the collections of pottery and ceramic art I own and told me he thought they were fine and wished they were his. Tunney was a peaceful, sensitive and thoughtful man, and his death at age 32 left a real mark on my life.

How many victims of AIDS do you know? How many gays and lesbians do you know? Do you know what they think about AIDS? Ask my grandson's godmother. She's a lesbian and was my daughter's best friend while they were growing up in New York. Know what she's doing now? Well, she's a Ph.D. who just returned from a stint in Africa where she taught women about the danger of AIDS and how to protect themselves. I am proud of this woman I've known since she was ten years old.

Mal

Mal:--Thank you for coming back to the subject of Public Health and the effect it is having and will have on Democracies.

AIDS has orphaned 12 million children in Africa, nearly triple the number of political refugees and displaced persons there. Millions more are expected to be orphaned in coming yeaars.

Of the greatest concern are comments such as that by Epidemioloist Kevin DeCock of Kenya who said "the world does not have any solutions."

This would seem to lead us back to the vital questions:--

1 - Can we, as individuals, do anything about this pandemic?
2 - If, as appears, there are no solutions, where are we heading?

Robby

Alexis deTocqueville said the following:--"In America, the passion for physical well-being is general. It is felt by all."

If deTocqueville were to visit us today, do you believe, as he looks around at the majority of us that he would see the majority as having a "passion for physical well-being?"

According to the American Journal of Public Health, nearly 25 percent of women in the 50's have so much body fat that it cannot be measured, at least not in the traditional way, which employs a device called a skinfold caliper to measure the layer of fat just beneath the skin. Men were in better shape with fewer than 5 percent of 50-year olds listed as greater than caliper. These data were collected in 1994 and, given the national trend toward weight gain, the current percentage of people who are "greater than caliper" may be higher for both sexes. The Journal says this undercores an epidemic of obesity in America.

In this discussion group, we are examining America. Is this what America looks like?

Robby

All: I hope you don't mind my intrusion. In addition to the previously identified Preamble Discussion, the Political Issues folder now has a Article I (Lower House) Discussion as well.

The PI Folder will be discussing the entire Constitution over time in separate discussions, and those discussions require a focus on the Constitution and not other posters.

Come by and give us your thoughts.

While I recognize that America is getting more obese (I consider myself overweight but not obese), I wouldn't consider it an epidemic. At least not yet.

There could well be an American epidemic of comfort and excess, and obesity may be just one of the side effects of such a society.

Is America's problem an "epidemic of comfort and excess?"

Robby

A recent national survey of adults by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that more than two-thirds of Americans, 64 percent of men and 78 percent of women, are either dieting to lose weight or watching what they eat to prevent themselves from gaining weight.

Robby

Perhaps, we have given up taking responsibility for our country's fat problem. Part of it lies with the way we eat and way we feed our children. After all, it is easier to stop at McDonald's on the way home from work than to cook a healthy meal. What we fail to see is that our population will become more unhealthy and unable to resist infections if they are not fed properly. To help build our immune systems we need a balanced healthy diet, enough sleep and some kind of spiritual base. We have deserted those perspectives in the druthers of having it all. Each one of these things help build up our immune systems.

There seems to nothing that we can do about traveling and travelers spreading disease. This has always gone on in the world. It is maybe worse today since we can travel so easily.

Bill H (re: Post 267)

No one except you seems to dare equate what is going on in the world today as something that was predicted in the bible. We live in a Post-Christian era. A de T. wrote his book during the great Christian revival era that prevailed in America during that time. His description of the moral values of Americans is correct for that time. I wonder if he could have felt the corruption and the evil that would permeate not only America, but the world. He vaguely warned us of the rottening of Democracy.

It is up to us to read and follow Christ's teachings on an individual basis. Those who do will never regret it.

I do not believe an educated man like the South African President believes what he is saying about the HIV virus. The truth of the matter is they cannot afford to treat the vast numbers of patients with the most modern drugs. I think his statements are politically motivated and he will not admit the truth.

I believe that developed nations do not really care about the Aids Plague in Africa because the sufferers are black! The size of the problem makes it one of the greatest and most devestating plagues in history. Why not set up an organisation worldwide which will collect funds for aids treatment in Africa. Maybe we can all sponsor treatment for an aids patient. Has not one of the drug companies offered to supply the drugs at a greatly reduced profit?

Carolyn

In this discussion group we have participants who are Christian, Jewish, and Muslim as well as those who do not follow any particular faith. We, of course, respect each person's belief and concentrate on a common ground for all of us, i.e. belief in Democracy.

Robby

Carolyn sees a relationship between racism and AIDS. The solution by the pharaceutical corporations is to give limited, negotiated price cuts in slow, grudging and piecemeal steps. In May 2000, Glaxco Wellcome, Merck, Boehringer-Ingelheim, F. Hoffmann-La Roche and Bristol announced a program called "Accelerating Access," promising to sell drugs at deep discounts to poor countries that met certain standards.

Robby

We all, I am sure, have experienced frustration at the advice given to us about our nutritional well being from commercial, health, and governmental advisers. Who speaks the unbiased, honest truth on the proven requirements for healthy living: magazines, T.V., agriculture assurances, governmental studies? Who?

I have almost stopped eating eggs (I LOVE EGGS!). I have stopped eating them as I have been advised they are dangerious to my well being. Also, butter is a no,no. Milk has become a bane to adults, but not to children (figure that one out). It looks like that we are taking our future health in jeapordy to eat the lower cuts of beef because of the dreadful danger of "mad cow" disease! The incubation period for this particular horror is 10 to 15 years. (I probably shouldn't worry about that one.)

I have been advised not to eat foods that are high in vitamin "K" as it will play havoc with my medication. ALL green vegetables are sources of vitamin "K"! Now - that leaves fruit! I don't like apples, pears are never ready to eat, bananas are always too green to eat - but too ripe if I turn my back. I don't think I should have to put so much time in just planning on what to eat every meal time. NO WONDER WE FLOCK TO THE FAST FOOD PLACES!

Perhaps the pharmaceuticals can come up with a COMPLETE nutrition pill that will take care of the above concerns and restore my sense of well-being.

Cathy:--How are you enjoying your three glasses of water a day??!!

Robby

Have you not heard? Water is not safe to drink in most of America! I am truly sorry to tell you this, but I do want to warn you to be careful and do whatever you can to only drink PURE water.

Wine is getting to be my favorite drink! Now that is a subsitute I can live with!

Cathy:--I was about to say that the subject of obesity does not relate to you as you are probably down to 60 pounds -- but then, wine (alcohol in any form) is fattening.

Robby

As people in our country are being overfed, except for those who are hungry, so many millions of children and adults in the world are without enough food. George McGovern is on C-span2 Book TV today (on tape from Jan. 24) talking about his new book, The Third Freedom: Ending Hunger in Our Time. (He's talking also of the far reaching effects of education throughout undeveloped countries.)

One figure he quoted---from the world's current stockpiles of grains (he listed 9 or 10), every person in the world could be fed 3500 calories a day for years. He blames ignorant, egocentric leaders of countries for not cooperating in getting offered food to their citizens----or for not accepting help, period. (I just thought...this is basically what is happening in Iraq, too.)

McGovern, with the interesting partner of Bob Dole, is pushing the idea of a U.N. sponsored school lunch program. I don't know the status of this proposal. He said he hopes he can get George Bush's approval, as he did Clinton's. Sounds like it's still in the planning stages. Anyone know?

The fight of AIDS will surely have to include feeding people as well as educating them, as MaryPage mentioned. That will hinge on who governs those countries---so, our interest in national elections around the world is one more piece of thinking about combating AIDS.

According to an obesity researcher at the University of Colorado Health Science Center in Denver, "we eat because it's 12 o'clock." He asks: "How many people eat because they're hungry? The only way to keep from gaining weight is to make gaining weight a conscious activity rather than an unconscious activity. If you leave it to your physiology, you're going to gain weight. You have to plan."

He adds: "It is the responsibility of obesity researchers to tell the public that they really do have to think about food and exercise all the time."

Robby

Obesity is one of the major causes of Type 2 Diabetes. Pretty soon that will be the next 'epidemic'. http://www.mayoclinic.com/home?id=DA00016

let me clarify what I said in reference to abstinence being the only way to stop the AIDS epidemic. I should have added "at the present time." There is always hope that science will eventually come up with a cure for this scourge, in time to prevent the wiping out of mankind. Yes, that, I believe, is the inevitable end that will result, if a way of prevention or a cure for this horrendous plague isn't found.

I also wish to state to any who have taken offense at any phrase or words I have used, in what I believe is a very serious discussion of very serious matters, that that is their problem, not mine.

Bob C

I believe that everyone here is speaking seriously and is accepting that everyone else is serious. My experience with all the participants in this forum is that no one is purposely jumping on anyone else -- so a constant stream of apologies is unncessary. In this Discussion Group we are addressing the topic, not the other person.

Robby

Medical experts say that Type 2 diabetes and sleep apnea are widely believed to be linked to obesity. Asthma is common among the obese but there is no clear cause and effect relationship.

Robby

Robby and others: Why should we want to prevent the wiping out of mankind? Wouldn't that be doing our planet a favor?

Rambler:--Would you care to expand on that?

Robby

Perhaps we need to just relax and acknowledge that there will always be life threatening conditions to our existance on this planet. How could there not be in this world of millions of people and differences of opinion of what those conditions are? Nature seems hell-bent on making us grow and fight for our privelege of life.

But - I do think we can relieve the stress with humor now and then.

Robby - I know the fattening nature of alcohol - that is what prevents me from becoming a wino(sp.?). Although a couple of drinks a day is, at this time, deemed good for one's health.

Some federal statistics show that rates of obesity climb as poverty increases. Of course, the factors that determine who is obese are complicated. Environment, daily habits and hereditary factors all come into play. In individual families there are genetic components and there are behavioral components and teasing these apart is almost impossible.

The resulting obesity has led to growing concerns about high rates of diabetes, cardiovascular disease, hypertension and asthma in younger and younger patients. Is this the America that Alexis deTocqueville saw?

Robby

First let me say I have just spent the most delightful 3/4 hours reading all past discussions on this site. Great forum. Now to your (288) Robert, many may say it is far fetched to think overweight is caused by eating when we are not hungry so much. But my wife and I are retired and while not overweight, well not too much, we made the resolution this past New Year's to increase our exercising and to eat only when we are hungry. We find that not only did we loose some weight, but we have thrown away less food than usual. We concentrate on fruits and vegetables with a little protein thrown in. The down side is that we aften eat by ourselves as we really want to stick to this "when your hungry, only". Aside from tea to accompagny the other, we found not staring at food is best and walk away. We were programed by work etc to eat at 7.oo am 12 noon and 6.00 pm. hungry or not. I tell you we are making great strides and feel so much better.

Rodger:--Welcome to our Discussion Group. Congratulations on the success you and your wife are achieving with your personal health.

You bring up a good point -- that is, the psychological side of eating -- being conditioned by the clock or being conditioned by the sight of food.

The physician using the skinfold caliper mentioned in an earlier posting pinches the layer of fat with a thumb and finger and raises the layer or pulls it straight out from the body. Then the calipers, a pair of pincers with a gauge attched, grab the flesh being held between the fingers, measuring its thickness. The results show where a person tends to store fat and they can be used to calculate the total percentage of the body that is made up of fat.

Telltale places to pinch include the back of the upper arm, the front of the thigh, and soft spots under the shoulder blades and waist.

Robby

Rodger, good for you! You and your wife are great examples of the type of thinking we need to have more of.

I feel one of the worst things that has happened in this country to negatively affect health is the ridiculous reliance on the pharmaceutical industry. My husband just came home from a week in the hospital with pneumonia and the whole treatment program was based on drugs. The healthful supplements I had to get permission to bring in from home. I had regular meetings with the "dietitian", begging them to not put chemicals like aspartame, margarine, etc. on my husband's trays. I realize it's a problem, providing nutritious food to a changing and difficult population but after all, people are there to get better and need wholesome, natural, unadulterated food.

My understanding is that other countries make good and regular use of things like herbs, nutrition, massage, and other safe and natural forms of health treatments. Even essential oils which I believe are used in French hospitals to prevent the spread of germs. All these things are relatively inexpensive, are proven effective, and without nasty side effects. How have we let pharmaceuticals monopolize our health program and how do we put an end to it? Didn't the U.S. come out 37th in a recent WHO survey of quality of health care given throughout the world? Obviously what we are doing is not working so why not take a close look at other countries which are getting better results?

Diane:--Good to see you posting in this forum!! And looking forward to more of your comments.

As I indicated in an earlier posting, there is huge pressure for physicians to hand out prescriptions for every cough and sniffle when it makes no real sense. While the physician is often the one with this philosophy, it is also often the patient who insists: "Do something to make me feel better, NOW."

Regarding weight, according to those specializing in obesity, the only way for most people to control their weight is to be exquisitely aware of food, planning their eating and planning exercise to burn off calories and NEVER letting a day go by when what to eat and how much to eat and how much to exercise is not on their minds.

Why is it that Tocqueville didn't see this problem when he visited America?

Robby

Robby,

Did anyone read the article about other countries,ie.India, offering drugs for treating AIDS in Africa at lower prices that I put up in here, last week? India Offers Drugs to Africa If India can do this, why can't all of the countries who are equipped with the drugs do it? According to the article, India, in offering these drugs at these prices, can break the big patent holders stranglehold on the AIDS drugs. There are also some side articles on this page concerning Brazil and India that you might want to read.

Rambler, gotcha, sir! Seems that we might be saving the earth, doesn't it! But, for who?

The reason given for adults not needing milk is that we don't digest milk, after the age of 6 or so. We no longer produce the enzymes that are necessary to digest it. What does that tell us? Maybe we don't need milk? We need calcium so where do we get it. There is a fair amount in vegetables but supplements are the only things we can ingest and actually measure the amount that we are ingesting. Drs now want us to take 1200-1500 mgs of calcium a day plus 400mgs of VitD. And, it took me a week of research to find the correct calcium to be putting in my body. And, of course, its very expensive! There is no winning here!

Don't miss this one! Whoa! India's Drug Company of choice

According to the National Center for Health Statistics, 6.5 percent of children ages 6 to 11 from 1976 to 1980 were overweight, defined as heavier than 95 percent of children of the same age. Ten years later, that fraction had nearly doubled. From 1990 to 1994, 11.4 percent of children in that age group were overweight.

How does that fit in with deTocqueville's remark that "the passion for physical well-being is felt by all?" As you look around you on the street, in the supermarket, and at schools, do you see the same thing or not?

Robby

Two reasons for obesity that exist now but didn't exist in deT's time.

Televisions with remote controls---and computers!

Simple causes for obesity are unavailable as far as I am concerned. I think mental health is inextricably bonded to obesity or anorexia as we know it today. In a culture that demands a slick body, cheefulness and an outgoing personality in order to count makes the believer spend an ordinate amount of time on cosmetics, exercise, and the art of emoting, that all else gets the short shift.

It takes big chunks of time to become the genuine skilled human being for the qualities of the famous or persons of great influence. It is a delicate balancing act to bring physical beauty and true competency. Being mediocre in these two qualities is unacceptable in our present success measurement. The strict criteria of looks and mental astuteness, plus all the other attributes we demand make such a demand on the strivers, and if they fail to measure up they seek consolation in food, drink, etc. Everyone can't be a celebraty or a howling success. We must learn to feel life is worth it regardless of our questional measure of success. That, to me, is good mental health and will add to the degree of success we are able to attain.

We all know about being a couch potato with the TV but Phyll adds computers as a means of fattening ourselves. Any comments on that? Please don't leave this forum in an effort to become thinner!!

Cathy sees mental health as "inextricably bonded to obesity." Are we saying that the obesity problem, especially among children, is related to their mental health?

Robby

I eat only 2 meals a day. I eat a very large breakfast (may be a Brit. thing) and a supper. I may weigh about 20lb more than I did at 16. I am not into snacks, but have a beer in the evening. I spend most of my life on the computer and don't move around much.

I think that kids of today would be much fitter if they had the play things that we did as kids. Nothing from the store!! We always found something to do and never had store brought stuff. I can never remember any of us whining "I'm bored". If I had done that my Mum would have given me something to do, like washing the kitchen floor.

Unlike in adults, who as a group - fat, thin and in between - are heavier than they used to be, obesity seems to be preferentially striking children who are already overweight, making them fatter while the thin children remain thin. The result is an ever-increasing number of children who are classified as too fat and a bigger gap than ever between the weights of the fat and the thin.

Many fat children and teenagers find themselves isolated and subjected to the derisive stares and comments of strangers, who assume that their weight problem is of their own making. Physicians are concerned. A fat child may be a fat adult, they say, and prone to problems like diabetes, high blood pressure and arthritis.

What do you folks see as you look around you?

Robby

ROBBY. There are many who think that obesity is a genetic problem, and not a dietry one. In this matter I am often reminded of a comment made by my wife, who as a child was deported from Poland to Siberian labour camps by the Russians. She says that while some were over weight at the beginning of their ordeal, not one was more than a walking skeleton when they got to safety in Persia ( Iran ). Pictures taken at the time show this all too horribly. Obesity is stored fat, from eating more than required to maintain weight and energy. Don't you agree?--Trevor.

I am really not sure Robby. Our sons are definately within the accepted weight for their ages. Our granddaughters are also among the lower weights in their age level, but not below. I think that this may be from their mother being overweight. I do worry about the girls going overboard in their attempt not to be as large as their mother. Fortunately they are very stable and should be able to resist it.

Hi Trevor. I was posting when you were or didn't get to read your post. I was a baby when the war started in England. I am sure that having a bit of extra weight helped with the rationing. We kids grew up with never an ounce of extra fat. Maybe it has helped us in our lives as we have never got into overeating. I am so pleased that your wife managed to manage to survive what the Europeans had to go through. I am so sorry. I am not sure if her name is Wiesla. I didn't want to use it in case I offended you.

Hi Trevor!! We've missed you. Sorry your latest posting was of your wife's terrible experience.

Kath:--There can be doubt that the childhood you and your friends experienced was considerably different from the experiences of children in our peacetime Democracies.

Robby

Let me see - in 'my day' we walked to school, a very long distance; in school we ran alot and after school we played tag (running) ring-o-levia - (running to hide.) We Walked to the movies and walked back. We walked downtown; we walked back. We ate rhubarb off the bush; picked apples from the trees and unless we got appendicitis from eating the green apples, we didn't see a doctor for a 'check up'. our teeth were good because we didn't have money to buy candy. (I do remember home made fudge).

Scenerio for kids today: ride the bus to work; ride the bus home because parents are afraid of perverts; driven to baseball/basketball practice (if any)and driven home because parents are afraid of perverts; can't take long walks in the neighbor, (supra); spend time on the computer -- talking to perverts; driven to movies to watch perverted movis; picked up and driven home. Tons of money for name brand sneaks that are good for everything but walking. I don't know how we did all the things we did in our one pair of Keds - but then again we didn't know we couldn't walk, run, play baseball, basketball, kick-the stick and all that jazz in just one pair of shoes. Same with dungraees - yes dungraees - that my grandchildren chuck at.

And because I missed some posts - prescriptions - let me just say that I wish, as a sick patient, I could get into see a physician as fast as a drug salesmen. Ever notice they constantly have elaborate lunches for doctors and give them fancy promotional gifts. Give me a break. And, to book, half the time the physicians only know what a drug does because the pharmacuetidal company told them. Well, I had an uncle who use to say: "Hey, just cause he said it, don't make it so!" And, if a drug bothers you, after having shelled out a small fortune for it - the doctor's says, 'well don't take it' and you ar left with a bottle of pills that only made one sicker in the first place.

In closing, I have very healthy, very athletic and food conscious granddaughters. I can remember saying to me daughter also (who is the same) "There are no treats in this house!" Her response: "Hmm, no treats? We have apples, banana's, oranges and other fruits which are all treats."

I am the obese one.

dolphindli

KATH. No problem, her name is WISIA ( Pronounced Vee-Shah ). What with my surname and her names we are used to being called all sorts of things ( BG )-- Trevor

Dolphin:--You tell of a childhood which was, I feel certain, much like the childhood of many of us. But considering the health of your children and grandchildren, and your healthy childhood, your last sentence sticks out by itself. Care to expand?

Robby

Sorry Trevor. I wasn't too far out.

)

What is it that tempts people to eat so much? According to a professor of medicine at St. Luke's-Roosevelt Hospital, portion sizes are enormous. People are walking around with liter cups of milkshakes. And people nibble all the time. They're eating on the street, they're eating all night while they watch television. Also, Americans are eating more and more meals away from home. Fast foods are notoriously fattening.

But expensive restaurants, too, have been known to ladle on the fat, knowing it makes their food taste good. Mashed potatoes at luxury restaurants may contain one part butter to two parts potatoes and vegetables often get a tablespoon of butter per serving added on their way out of the kitchen. At one restaurant, the menu correctly said that its halibut was poached, but it did not say in what. The answer, according to the chef, was goose fat.

Just as Alexis deTocqueville was observing America objectively, so are we. What change do you see occurring in America and, perhaps, in other Democracies?

Robby

I would like to think that the World Wide Web will become even more of an influence in our thinking. Freedom of information and a well educated populace will surely make a unification of all peoples possible and less endangered by Totalitarianisn.

Our ability to exhange dialogue with others unlike ourselves, I think, will convinceus we are more alike than different and what is different amoung us is better understood and, therefor; makes us more accepting of diversity.

I have especially enjoyed exchanging thoughts with our Canadian posters and wish we had even more variety in this forum. How many other countries have posted in this forum? I know we have Kiwi Lady from New Zealand; what other countries have we exchanged thoughts with in this thread? I address this question to Robby. Do you have a tally of foreign posters

I am a double Cathy as I am English and also Canadian. I was 27 when we came to Canada.

Carolyn and Trevor are both New Zealanders.

Kath - wouldn't it be great to pick up some contact with Russia? How would someone in a forum like this make contact? What link exist to make a contact possible. I am real dumb on this possibility.

I would like very much to see people in this forum from other Democracies. Suggestions are most welcome!

Robby

I doubt that there are many English speaking Russians online Cathy. Any that are would probably not represent the average Russian. For myself I am the wife of a retired Ford worker and the daughter and granddaughter of bread bakers with their own bakeries. People such as we have here represent the average person. We know what it is like to live the life of the majority.

It is my impression that most European countries have a goodly number of their people able to understand and write English. I think it is more than likely that we would be suprised at the number of English speaking common people in Russia and the Balkans.

All we need to invite some more participants is for someone who knows someone who has e-mail addresses in a foreign democracy!

) I know no one, presently, to send e-mail and invite them to "Tune" us in. Surely there is some source we can contact with available European webside addresses.

I wonder, perhaps Senior Net has such a source. I will try to check that out.

Go for it, Cathy!

Researchers who have seen what they describe as overwhelming evidence of biologically determined weight ranges say they are becoming weary of hearing promoters of weight-loss programs insist that people could be really thin if they truly wanted to. Behavior, they say, has failed to explain why people stay fat. Studies searching for behavioral characteristics, like binge eating, eating too quickly or skipping meals that typified obesity failed to find consistent patterns. Every behavior by fat people was found just as often in thin people.

These researchers say a realistic weight goal is a loss of about 10 percent of body weight, which often is enough to make people healthier, lowering their blood sugar and blood pressure. This, they add, requires great effort -- and constant vigilance for life -- but it also means coming to terms with the fact that, for many, being slender will always be a fantasy.

Robby

ROBBY. 10% of body weight you say? I have in the last three months managed about 5%,( 220 down to 210 ) and there it remains fixed. I'm sure I would lose more if only I reduced my intake, but like many others I don't! Trevor.

We are continuing (as we have been since July 28th) to float along in the mainstream of America and other Democracies and comparing what we see with what Alexis deTocqueville observed. Currently we are looking at the physical appearance of the various citizens "out there" and comparing that with deT's "passion for physical well-being" that he said was "felt by all."

But for the moment we pause, as we have occasionally done for the past six months, to observe a holiday and see what the "folks out there" are doing. This time the holiday is Valentine's Day. This is not just an American holiday. It is observed in many other nations.

How do you see people here observing it? How are you and your family and friends observing it -- if at all?

Robby

I am doing what I have done all my life Robby. Nothing. We never had Valentine's Day in England when we lived there. We never had Halloween either. For some reason they have started to celebrate these days in England. Probably big business looking for more profits.

Montignac is very popular here in Quebec. He wrote a book on nutrition that describes the way they eat in France as compared with America. I must say though that the French are slowly getting overweight as fast food is getting popular there also. He claims that the pancreas plays a major part in digestion. The French (he says) don't diet or exercise much. They just do what comes naturally. They go grocery shopping every day and cook that. They seldom eat dessert. Fruit and cheese ends the meal. Wine is always served. No snacks between meals or fast foods. Montignac explains that refining food causes weight gain because it sends a message to the pancreas that it has not had nutrition yet, and a person wants to eat until he/she feel "full". That feeling is important to stop eating for 4 to 6 hours to give the stomach a rest. Protein is high on the list.

I go to France often and enjoy their wonderful cooking and usually loose a few pounds eating like a queen.

I only wish I only had that problem to worry about in life.

Kathy Foss

Look at the folder-Geographic Communities on Seniornet. I know of one lady who has been over here to a bash. She and her husband traveled from South Africa. Very interesting poster!

Happy Valentine's Day Everyone!!

Robby--

Yes, I'll admit that there are a great many folks out there (including me) who are overweight to a greater or lesser degree. But don't forget the proliferation of Gyms, body building equipment, etc. That certainly indicates a devotion to a feeling of physical well-being.

How are we celebrating Valentine's Day? I walked into the office today, to find a cute little thingee holding a Hershey Kiss and a nice little bit of Ghiardelli chocolate on my desk. Then in comes one person with really delicious donuts, another with bread pudding & Bourbon sauce, another with a lovely fruitbowl. I was really surprised because we're having a pot luck lunch tomorrow so never figured on anything at all today. And, of course, didn't bring anything. So, we're celebrating by eating our heads off, and it isn't even lunchtime yet.

that the role models of today, particularly for females, are such that striving to emulate them leads to eating disorders among so many of our younger people. For example, there is Calista Flockhart, who looks like an escapee from a death camp, but yet is one of the most popular of TV stars in that dreadful sitcom she is in. The message that is sent is that it is good to be thin, even skeleton-like, but the message that Mother Nature sends is that women particularly are supposed to be sturdy, in order to bear children, I presume. I can only presume, because we males are blessed in that we do not have to go through what must be a truly traumatic experience. It's been noted that if men had to bear children, the human race would cease to be.

There was a time when a Reubenesque-like figure was the standard, but in modern day society, particularly in the Western World, the opposite is now the case. There has to be a major change in attitude, so that heavier does not continue to be anathema, but is accepted as a natural occurance. That doesn't mean one should resort to gluttony, since anything done in extreme is not to be condoned; but moderation is the key to success in most endeavors, and especially in achieving one's dietary goals. It is a goal that all should work towards, and with a little perseverance I sincerely believe can be achieved.

Bob C

In a culture where fattening food is everywhere, thinness is a national ideal and 55 percent of the population is officially overweight, what is normal and what is abnormal? Over the last two decades, scientists have progressed both in their understanding of eating disorders and their ability to treat them. Researchers have found, for example, that cognitive therapy and antidepressants are effective therapies for bulimia nervosa. And they have learned that eating disorders tend to run in families, suggesting that the vulnerability to such problms may be at least in part genetic.

How do you see the fact that over half of the nation is officially overweight relating to deTocqueville's comment above beginning: "The love of well-being...?"

Robby

I dare say that anyone who comes to the BookFest in November will see plenty of Ruebenesque figures.

Jean: I'm glad you mentioned the Bookfest as it gives me an opportunity to provide a Link for those here who would like to know about this tremendous event! Everyone in Senior Net who is active in Books & Literature (and that includes everyone here) is cordially invited to be part of this tremendous event to take place in Washington, DC on November 7-11 of this year. Just click onto BOOKFEST and you will find yourself in the forum that will give you all the details. This will give you an opportunity to meet personally all those folks here with whom you have been exchanging conversation.

Robby

In non-Western cultures, fatness often is associated with high status. Polynesian kings were frequently quite fat, while the girls of Banyankole in East Africa were fattened in preparation for marriage like so many Christmas geese. A professor at Harvard says that when he began doing field work in Hong Kong in the 1960s, women who were slender would not have been marriageable. Neither would highly muscular young men.

With the 20th century came spectacular innovations in agriculture and food processing that made food cheaper, easier, more abundant and more calorie-dense than ever before. At the same time, labor-saving devices made sweat ever scarcer. As adiposity was democratized, the elite in industrialized countries began seizing on thinness as a sign of high status, not to mention of a good education. For it was the most educated sector of the population that learned first about the benefits of fruits, vegetables and whole grains.

Robby

How Now! I expect if I were to move to Polynesia, I could be an EMPRESS!

Happy Valentine's Day, Robby!

Robby et al:

Here is a very lengthy article that someone sent me the other day. I thought of you and thought you might enjoy reading through it.

Why There Is A Culture War

Linda

I thought some of you might be interested to read what was sent to me in a newletter from Russian Cuisine at http://www.ruscuisine.com. Olga Timohina, who owns this site, is a Russian who lives in Russia. Here's what she says about Siberian food.

"The particularities of nutrition of Siberian people have been formed thanks to ancient traditions and bleak climate. People preferred dairy products, vegetables, and greens in summer and meat dishes with pickles in winter. They treated food with care and solicitude. All the products were spent with a great thriftiness, especially in spring. Bread was considered a sacred object and it was sinful to throw or drop even a piece of bread or leave breadcrumbs on the table. Meat was the product for holidays; all the best food products were purchased to save some money for other expenses.

"Women got up earliest with the lark and cooked the meals. There usually were three meals a day, children could eat more often – pancakes were baked especially for them and they were given milk. Breakfast was called 'zautrennik', lunch – 'pauzhin', supper – 'vechernik'. The housewife could fry potatoes in the oven, mash and dress them with sour cream and butter for the first meal. Schi were made only from meat and water and ukha was cooked without any spices. For uzhin, a hill of thin and thick pancakes, pies with viburnum (snowball berries) and, of course, kasha were served. Kasha with milk and butter was steamed out; vegetables were stewed or baked in the oven. Or it could be vice versa: dairy products were for the morning meal and potatoes with sour cream for the evening, but lunch ('obed') was traditionally with soup, kasha and kvas. Soup was a simple mixture of potatoes with meat slices and bay leaf. Main dishes, as a rule, were served with sauerkraut and pickles.

"Obed was accompanied with okroshka (salad made from radish, onion, cucumbers, eggs and dressed with kvas). In winter okroshka was completed with kholodets (meat in aspic) and served with oaten beverage and kulaga. Kulaga was made from boiled rye flour, viburnum, wort and sugar, and then placed in the oven for a whole day. In autumn, from mushrooms, gruzdianka (milk mushroom stew) was cooked with potatoes, onion, dill and sometimes, groats. Pelmeni (small dumplings with meat filling) is aboriginal Siberian dish as they could be kept thanks to hard frosts for a long time.

"Uzhin was diversified with pies, shangui (a kind of pirozhki) with berries, carrot, cabbage, curds and onion. Pumpkin was cooked with buckwheat or millet gruel and served with milk. As you can see, the food was very simple and can't be called delicious or fine. But its principal advantage is nourishing and filling qualities.

"Everything was eaten with wooden spoons from a common ceramic bowl. There were no special rules of behavior at table, but laugh, fun and talks were forbidden. The eldest man of the family took the first portion of food and it was him who watched the children. Meal was a traditional place to review all the faults and slips. It was the same eldest man who spoke and the other kept silence and accepted the punishments obediently.

"Before taking meal, people prayed and bowed low to the icon. Children were obliged to ask a permission to leave the table. Having left the table, children bowed to the icon and thanked the parents: 'Thank you, Dad and Mom'."

Linda, thanks for the link. Very interesting article, one that articulates well some of my foggy and jumbled, inarticulate discomfort with Toqueville. My response, often, to a declaration of de Toqueville is, "...but, it's not that simple."

In reading ANY article, I always ask myself, what is the author's bias? The last paragraph of this article spells out the author's bias, although the rest of the article seems balanced, with the exception of one glaring editorial-sounding sentence mid-article (something about there isn't much evidence of an epidemic of violence against women. What planet does this author live on?)

All in all, the premise of the article is immensely interesting. It's not a fast read, though. Since I think it's well worth reading, though, I'll share some tricks I use to keep me going when reading something complex----I slow down and read deliberately, punching the key words in each phrase, as if I'm reading aloud in my head to someone. I also expect to reread many phrases. Sometimes the rereading of a sentence, punching the key words louder in my thoughts (and, frankly, sometimes aloud), is what it takes to understand what's written. If a whole paragraph is still fuzzy, I reread the paragraph.

Reversing a policy that has kept medical errors secret for more than two decades, federal officials say they will soon allow Medicare beneficiaries to obtain data about doctors who botched their care. Tens of thousands of Medicare patients file complaints each year about the quality of care they receive from doctors and hospitals. But in many cases, patients get no useful information because doctors can block the release of assessments of their performance.

Under a new policy, doctors will no longer be able to veto disclosure of the findings of investigations. Federal law has for many years allowed for review of care received by Medicare patients and the law says a peer review organization must inform the patient of the "final disposition of the complaint" in each case. BUT federal rules used to carry out the law say the peer review organization may disclose information about a docctor only "with the consent of that practitioner."

Any experiences here regarding that?

Robby

On February 19th this nation will be celebrating the national holiday of Presidents Day. That day also happens to be the fifty sixth anniversary of the battle of Iwo Jima. I would respectfully suggest that during the course of your celebrating Presidents Day, that you take a moment to reflect on the supreme sacrifice that was made by so many thousands of Americans during what is generally acknowledged to be the bloodiest and most horrific battle of World War II. They died so that this great democracy of ours would survive.

Those of us who were witness to that event cannot ever forget what happened in that place and in that time. Those of us who were not, should take at least a single moment to rededicate themselves to preventing it from ever happening again!

Mike Cantor

Thanks and Bless you for being there, Mike.

MP !

(just learned something new ..... )

You would not be an Empress now if you were overweight. The polynesians too are on a campaign against obesity. The King of Tonga is encouraging all his people to lose weight, he is on a program and he is running competitions in weight loss to help to reduce the diabetes etc in his country.

I agree with Robbie some people will never be wraiths! The models most young women aspire to are down right anorexic in their appearance. One of my daughters is naturally very thin but she is not nice to cuddle like a bird, you can feel all her bones!

Carolyn

Carolyn says: "The polynesians too are on a campaign against obesity."

Maybe this public health problem is not just in the Western world. A couple of months ago Dr. Thandi Puoane, a black South African well acquainted with the social norms of her society and a public health expert, arrived at one of the clinics in South Africa with a mandate to make obesity a health priority. A team of veteran community health educators, almost all of them women, met her. Nearly every one of the health workers was fat, most of them, in fact obese. And worse, most of the workers were not the least bit worried about their weight. She told them: "You can't take these people and send them into the community. They need to be examples. We need to change their behavior before we can change the community's behavior."

So if obesity (not just fatness) is spreading all over the world, what is the cause?

Robby

Mike Cantor - I could not be more impressed with you and what I consider a good citizen of U.S.; however, I do not see anything currently on our political scene that moves me to believe that we have learned such a signifant lesson as to assure ourselves it won't happen again.

We still are at the mercy of those of whom have the control of the airways and the justice system, plus the ears of those in power. Have you ever tried to make contact with a power person as a good, upright citizen and been successful? I would love to hear any such stories.

Carolyn I remember the King's lovely mother. I was a child in England during the Coronation of the present Queen. To this day I remember how much we Brit's loved Queen Salotte (sp)? A truly beautiful lady and one that I will always remember. She was truly big and beautiful.

I have a wierd way of deciding if I am 'packing it on'. I hate anything tight on my waist. If my pants feel tight I go on a low carb diet for a couple of weeks. Once my pant waist is comfy again I stop. I never weigh myself, but go by the 'comfy' test'. I am about 135-140lb (I think).

While physicians will always weigh you upon entering their office, weight specialists will always tell you that the way your clothes fit is a better way of judging weight than the scale.

Robby

I am with you there Robby. I go by my clothes, comfort, and never weigh myself. How we feel is much more important than a number on a scale. Mind you!! I rarely buy clothes. It may not work with people that have 'fat clothes' and 'thin clothes'.

ROBBY, it is indeed exactly as Dr. Thandi Puoane described it. All the older ladies are still very obese, their were different reasons for this, part tribal customs, part the food they ate and still do. However the younger girls, who are now seeing by watching TV and the meeting of the different races in schools will help a lot to change this. If only we could manage to get our terribly high rate of aids down too, it is apparently also very difficult to make some of the cultural groups see reason.

Margret.

Margret:--Good to see you here again and it's nice to hear from someone in South Africa who can give us first hand information. As you know, we are currently discussing Public Health in Democracies and any additional comments by you would be much appreciated.

Robby

My oldest daughter spent a year in Lybia with her father several years ago. While she was in Lybia, she took a tour of Europe. Upon her return to U.S. she was made aware of how long it had been since she had seen so many overweight people.

All in our family are quite tall and have not had to worry much about being overweight, even so, we all must watch how much we eat or that would not be the case.

How nice to have a poster from South Africa. I, too welcome Margret! How is Democracy practiced in your country! Again, WELCOME here.

According to Dr. Otelio Randall at Howard University Hospital, the rates of obesity, cardiovascular disease, hypertension and other chronic conditions are high everywhere, but they're especially high among African-Americans. Among black women, for example, about 66 percent are overweight, compared with 47 percent of white women.

One in 10 middle-aged black women is morbidly obese, more than 100 pounds overweight, explaining at least in part why black women are four times as likely as white women to die young of heart disease.

Robby

I have often thought about African Americans and First Nations people being overweight. It could be that their metabolism is different to the general public. Perhaps they are more inclined to pack on the weight when times are good. It would help to maintain them when food was short. This is not needed now, but a few generations ago it could have made the difference between living and dying.

However, according to the experts in the field, the dread obesity epidemic is not restricted to any race, creed, ethnicity or slice of the socioeconomic supersized pie. Virtually every group known to demography is getting fatter. The poor are getting fatter and the well-to-do are getting fatter. The old are getting fatter, baby boomers and Generation Xers are getting fatter, children too young to have a category are really getting fatter.

People are brodening abroad as well -- in Europe, Australia, South America, Africa, Russia, the Middle East. Asians once seemed to be blessed with magic anti-adipose devices, but they, too, are getting fatter. Even in the poorest nations, where hunger and famines are still part of the landscape, obesity rates are climbing. In 10 percent of the families in Indonesia, for example, there can be found both undernourished and overnourished people living in the same household.

There is no group in the population left unaffected, according to a professor of psychology and epidemiology at Yale, the prevalence of obesity is rising in everybody. Just what is going on here?

Robby

Excerpt from this morning's news

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 6:25 a.m. ET

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- The City of Brotherly Love, which two years ago earned the distinction of being America's fattest city, is trying to shed the lard.

Led by Mayor John F. Street, a fitness fanatic, and Pat Croce, owner of the NBA's 76ers and a former fitness trainer, the city is trying to get residents to lose a combined 76 tons in 76 days.

In 1999, Men's Fitness magazine named Philadelphia the least fit city in the country after a survey showed nearly 30 percent of its residents were obese, and only 16 percent exercised regularly.

Street, a now-trim 57-year-old who once weighed nearly 300 pounds, makes regular use of the gym he had installed in his City Hall suite after taking office last year. He even has a full-time fitness czar.

deTocqueville said 170 years ago (see above):--"The love of well-being is now become the predominant taste of the nation."

Think of what deT said and now listen to a professor of nutrition at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill: "The obesity epidemic is very, very scary. It is associated with an array of diseases and disorders, familiar killers like diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, stroke and cancer and chronic miseries like osteoarthritis, infertility, fibroids, gastrointestinal problems and sleep disturbances."

What happened to the healthy population that deTocqueville saw?

Robby

Betty Gregory - Yes, technology, inactivity, lack of interest in cooking, fast food ads on TV, push buttons, wealth and the race for high profits by companies who know what people will buy given a little nudge with smart advertising techniques.

Television did it and our inability to judge and resist the temptation to indulge in junk food in spite of our knowledge of what is good for our body and what is bad.

Profit is the master of the human race.

What I'd like to know is what was the lifespan of Americans when de Tocqueville was here? What illnesses were prevalent? What percent of the population was poverty-stricken? What percent were farmers? What percent lived in cities?

I am tempted to say that things were not as blssful and serene at that time as we might believe. I am also tempted to say that people were not as healthy as de Tocqueville thought.

Mal

“Profit is the master of the human race.”------Eloise De Pelteau

On occasion, as I read the posts placed here, a statement is made that really makes me stop short and reflect on its’ ability to electrify my thinking processes. The above statement is one of those and I cannot help myself from commenting on it.

The premise is correct, but not absolutely. The observation is acutely perceptive but, from my own point of view, too all encompassing. Within those boundaries however, there can be no question of its veracity as well as Eloise’s ability to really tell it like it is!

If I may, I would like to squeeze in a few minor comments of my own. As a member of the human race, at least I was the last time I looked, I can state unequivocally that profit is NOT my master. I sincerely believe that there is a large portion of the human race that, although silent, feels the same way. The only master that I recognize is that of a divine presence that exists in each and every one of us whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.

There is a universal applicability of the statement made by Eloise whether it is directed towards the problems of obesity, the quality of medical care as available to the citizens of this democracy, or the subjugation of their rights with respect to lawfully choosing their elected leaders, but only if the statement is slightly modified.

I would respectfully suggest that it should read: “Profit is the master of those members of the human race who have replaced compassion, respect for others with whom they share this world, and love of their fellow man with the disease of greed!”

Eloise, it occurs to me that my observations reflect what you really intended. That being the case, please know that as we are of one mind, I salute the intent of your words to a greater degree than my own.

Mike

There was a fair bit of obesity in the well to do classes in the eighteenth century too! Too much wine and good food then! Also they had servants and did little manual labour and exercise was mainly on horseback for the men! Well to do bored women also were couch potatos and lay about with imaginary illnesses! I dont think much has changed. I think the main change would be in the obesity in children nowdays which has a lot to do with being ferried everywhere and too much time in front of TV and Computers and parents indulging their passion for junk food against healthy home cooked meals and lots of fresh fruit and wholegrain breads etc!

Carolyn

For unknown reasons, subjects under stress tend to eat comparatively more, and to crave fatty, sugary foods. To make matters worse, the body under stress tends to lay down its adipose stores around the belly rather than on the thighs, buttocks and arms -- and abdominal fat has been shown to be a particular risk factor for heart disease.

Happily, one antidote for stress also happens to be an antidote for obesity -- exercise. And it is by encouraging physical activity that obesity researchers say the greatest hope lies. Sometimes, small gestures make a big difference. In seeking to encourage employees to use the stairs more often, for example, the Centers for Diseae Control and Prevention gradually spruced up the staircases. And with each improvement -- sweeping up the ancient dust balls, applying a fresh coat of paint, adding artwork to the walls -- ever more people chose to climb.

Is walking part of your life or the life of your friends and family?

Robby

Mikecantor - Gee thanks for undeserved praises. Unfortunately I often squeeze statements to their smallest possible conclusions and miss oout on clarity. You are absolutely right, not everybody is greedy, but high profits goals by large corporations can modify our most resistant behaviours. I don't want to buy a certain products, but competition has vanished and I must buy from the only company that produces it. Sometimes I really fall for the ad on TV against my better judgment.

When it comes to obesity, we have a wide choice of food to choose from, but because we are in a hurry, we drop in at MacD for a quick pick me up. It saved us from cooking for a couple of hours. Brain activity has replaced muscular activity because most of the people work sitting down. Half of the total population of Quebec lives in and around Montreal at sedentary jobs. I doubt if in underdeveloped countries, most of the people work in the fields, and if they do, they never seem to suffer from obesity.

The medical profession and the pharmaceutical companies work hand in hand but when do we hear about prevention unless we are saddled with a disease. For the past 30 years I have read and followed the advice of naturalists to prevent illnesses. Because I am healthy, researchers would not be interested in studying what I have done for so many years in order to stay that way. If I need the medical profession I respect their advice and buy the prescription because there are some health problems that just cannot be prevented.

Eloise uses that key word "prevention" and also comments upon eating outside the home and eating the right foods. More and more people are eating outside their homes. Restaurants and the deli trade are becoming a prime source of food. In addition, many supermarkets now have salad bars and deli counters that provide precut and prepared foods that are not cooked or heated by the consumer, and mishandling of these foods could easily sicken hundreds of customers.

There have been in recent times a number of serious and sometimes fatal episodes of food poisoning. Most cases never come to official attention. But while salmonella was once the primary culprit, a number of troublesome new organisms have been identified. The potential for widespread disaster has definitely expanded.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that food-borne illness account for a staggering 76 million illnesses, 323,914 hospitalizations and 5,194 deaths each year in the United States. The hardest hit are the very young, the very old, pregnant women and those with compromised immune systems caused by disease or its treatment.

Robby

CATHY FOSS. You asked if anyone had been successful in contacting a "power person". Yes, I have been there, done that. Several years after my retirement, I was having a real problem concerning my wife, who is covered by my health plan. For some quirky reason, she had been dropped, though she is entitled to coverage.

I picked up the phone and called the office of my local Congressman, since I was unable to get any satisfaction from the Office of Personnel Management itself. It was but a very few days, and specifically on a Saturday, when his legislative assistant called me back, stating that she knew how very concerned I was, and she didn't want me waiting to hear from her until Monday. The problem was straightened out completely, cutting right through the bureaucratic red tape.

Sorry to reply so late after your inquiry, but I've been having problems with my iMac. Wish I could get that resolved as easily as I did the above.

Bob C

In the last 20 years, according to the chief of the food-borne and diarrheal illnesses branch of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, at least a dozen pathogens have been newly recognized as serious food-borne hazards. This includes the sometimes lethal E.coli O157:H7 which can contaminate meats and produce, and Listeria monocytogenes, an organism that can kill adults and cause miscarriages. It can contaminate raw milk, soft-ripened cheeses and ready-to-eat meats, and thrives even in the refrigerator.

Salmonella, which used to be the No. 1 cause of food-borne illness, is now a relatively minor culprit. However, there are new problems. The incrasing consumption of chicken in this country has been accompanied by an increased incidence of Campylobacter jejuni infection which now exceeds salmonella as the most common bacterial food-born pathogen.

For those who regularly microwave frozen dinners -- have you noticed the large percentage of them that have chicken?

Robby

We are currently discussing Public Health, i.e. a concern for the entire populace. As you look at what the Federal Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and other federal agencies are doing on our behalf, do you agree or disagree with deTocqueville's comment above beginning with "In no country of the world..."

Robby

Robby, doesn't microwaving or oven cooking kill these Campylobacter jejuni bacteria in frozen dinners? Are we at risk when we eat anything?

Mal

Mal:--I haven't the slightest idea. I'm still alive. Of course, I don't eat many TV dinners anyway. I'm a fruit, vegetable, and whole grain person. I rarely touch chicken and with extremely rare exceptions I haven't eaten red meat for 25 years.

Robby

in the microwave which boils water in a couple of minutes so must boil anything liquid i the dinners. Now how long does this have to go on to kill germs -- about five minutes? It's something I've wondered about too Mal, because more and more often I find myself using them and often they don't take any five minutes to be ready to eat. Robby you visited us in the weight support group. We all seem to be interested in cooking in there. I find myself combining prepared foods. . . still cooking if only for one. People living alone involve so many adjustments when they're used to being with others and yet it's happening more and more in this country. thank goodness for tv dinners. They didn't have them 170 years ago.

I heard or read something recently about the effects of the need to sell products to people whether they need it or not. This week, there was a report that if children drink just one soft drink a day, (or was it just 1 more --and, if that is the case, more than what?) they will eventually become obese. Just look around at the folks who can't be anywhere without a bottle or can of something in their hands. I think we failed to wean a couple of generations. The tendency has been that if a little of something is good, tons of it is great. Think of the ads you see for juice. Used to be that we drank 4 oz of juice (in a juice glass) for breakfast. Eight ounces is what we NEED for our vitamin C needs. Think of that the next time you see an ad or program where someone is draining a juice bottle, or is being encouraged to drink more and more juice. And is it any wonder that nutritionist are now saying that juice can be blamed for overweight kids.

A day or so ago someone here gave us a cameo of the way kids used to be--playing outside, eating an apple instead of a bag of chips. That description fit my childhood existence to a T. Besides, during the depression, there just wasn't money to buy snacks.

Television has glorified gluttony. Remember the commercial of the very fat slobby guy dancing around about something--nachos, fritos, ???? Being a slob is presented to us as desirable. I was very pleased to read in one of this morning's papers about a local teacher who slides bits of etiquette into lessons--calling them "little life lessons". Her class kids took the initiative in organizing a Poetry Tea--with the kids dressed properly, and putting into effect the etiquette rules they had learned, --and they said they didn't want soft drinks and chips. They had several varieties of tea, and desserts. I'm sure hoping it's a foot in the door to the resurgence of being sensible about things.

Winsum:--Good to have you with us! We are currently discussing Public Health but gradually move along to fit in with whatever is happening in America at the time and, at the same time, compare today's America with the one deTocqueville saw. You are encouraged to click onto the three "Links to Past Discussions" above to get an idea of what we have talked about so far.

Jean reminds us of the constant urging that "more is better" and sums it up with the term "gluttony." Is that a major difference from the America of 1831? Was life then such that gluttony was out of the question?

Robby

Still chuckling, Jeanlock, about your comment on failing to wean a couple of generations. (I did notice, however, while living in the northwest for 6 years, that many carried water in their own bottles---not the purchased water.)

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Carolyn, your reference to the ample women era make me wonder if the larger sizes came from the upper classes only, since food wasn't as plentiful for the economically poor. Also, your mention of women's pretended illnesses---I heard the most interesting presentation once that proposed that being ill was the only legitimate way (until the 2nd half of the 20th century) that a woman could excuse herself from her dawn to dusk duties---either in her middle and lower class endless, physical hard work or the powerless pedestal of upper class. This was her only way to say no. Isn't that an interesting theory?

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I saw part of 20/20 last night. A medical researcher studied why 3 year olds naturally stop eating when their bodies are no longer hungry (they "listen" to their bodies) and people beyond that age eat beyond feeling hungry. (A tape of squirming 3-year olds was shown, large pieces of food still on their plate.)

Some of the findings (that I can remember)---we start to be influenced by "louder" noises than our hungry/not hungry body after the age of 3. Portion size did not determine what satisfied people. In other words, people ate whatever portion was placed in front of them and felt satisfied, no matter what the amount of food. (As in restaurants---we eat what they bring and then we're "through.")

People ate more if they were with lively groups of people--or any group of people. They ate less only if they were with one other person that they had an emotional attachment to. Boyfriend-girlfriend. Husband-wife.

The researcher also stressed that we have constant prompts (cues) to eat---television ads, friends, full refrigerators, luscious menus, etc. That all this influence (my word "noise") is louder than our body's signals of hungry/not hungry, that we have forgotten how to hear what the 3 year old hears.

I would also agree with Robby about overeating being related to stress. I think I eat more than I did when my husband was alive. I darent keep anything in my pantry which is calorie laden to snack on because I think when I do start to feel lonely in I go looking for comfort food! The only thing I keep is sesame crackers and plain unsweetened low fat home made acidophilis yoghurt. This is my icecream replacement! I have fruit to snack on and always eat wholewheat bread. If I had a bar of chocolate in the house I would eat it until I felt nauseous. Chocolate is very addictive to me. Once I start I cannot stop!

Carolyn

A couple of days ago my morale was at an all time low as usual at the end of February. The sun was shining so I got into the car and drove about 60 miles to a small town in the Laurentian mountains where we had moved after getting married in 1948. I parked the car on the very spot where our first house used to be and when I got out, I gazed at lake that used to make me feel like I was in heaven. (I was raised in the city). I started to walk on the lake. There was a winter carnival going on and children were playing all over some snow sculptures, slides, and skating on a large skating area about a mile long. Little kids with skates no bigger than my hand wobbled and chased each other squeeling with delight. I noticed some people far away walking on the lake and I too ventured out. The snow was hard packed and I could walk easily without sinking. The silence made ma sing with joy. I no longer felt down and smiled at the memory of going out in a rowboat in July with my husband when we got off on a little island and there we started our family. Could you blame us? After 3 hours of sweet memories, I was totally reconciled with the world and with myself and came back home.

Life is beautiful. Love Eloïse

Eloise:--A beautiful story -- and yes, Life is Beautiful!!

Robby

"So if obesity (not just fatness) is spreading all over the world, what is the cause?"

The sugar in breakfast cereal. That's where it all started.

Linda

Among the ancient Greeks and Romans, plumpness, particularly in women, was seen as desirable. The goddesses were often depicted as hefty matrons. On the other hand, early physicians like Hippocrates and Galen recognized that too much fat was unhealthy. The early Christians also looked scornfully upon the obese, counting gluttony as one of the seven deadly sins.

In some medieval paintings, sinners were shown as fat and Christ's disciples as slender. Slenderness has often been equated with holiness, the sign of an ascetic life tht eschews the carnal pleasurs of the body in favor of the transcendent, fat-free pleasures of the soul.

To the common folk, however, the lure of portliness beckoned. To be a good 20 to 40 pounds above what we would now consider desirable was seen as a sign of prosperity. Thin people were regarded with suspicion, as ugly. The artist who best captured the sensuality of corpulence was the painter Reubens. A Rubens woman, according to the art historian Sir Kenneth Clark, is "plump and pearly," while others described her as a "luscious fat girl."

Linda lays the whole current world-wide problem on sugar in breakfast cereal.

Your thoughts, folk?

Robby

I think that the ceaseless insistence in advertising on eating --especially stuff that is not necessary to sustain life-- is largely responsible. And that is mostly on TV. Does anyone remember the commercials on the old Kraft Theater? During the commercial break, they usually demonstrated a recipe. And, I, being pretty unsophisticated in those days, usually went right out the next day to get the stuff to make it. I've learned better since, but there is just no escaping the advertising, and --apparently-- people's being unable to resist.

Did the fattening of America begin with the onset of television?

Robby

My opinion is that people spend much, much too much time in consideration of what people LOOK like, and too little time pondering what is in their minds.

I think too many of us are couch potatoes--I know I am, because my leg was amputated after being struck by a car--I'm just learning to walk ith an artificial leg. It's hrd to keep your weight down, when you can't move around except in a wheelchair. I weighed 98 lbs when my leg was chopped off, now I weigh 130. I don't know if mr potato head has a wife,but if he does, she probably looks justlike me with all my bump. lumps,bulges. Oh well, at least the car only hit me.didn't run over me.LOL!!!!

Scootergirl:--So sorry to hear about your accident. Most certainly you have a good reason for being what you call a "couch potato." I don't think that's what the originators of that term meant.

But you are doing exactly what some others here are recommending. You are exercising. You are learning to walk on your artificial leg.

And you deserve all the credit in the world!!

Robby

I agree 100% with Mary Page. Much too much emphasis is put on how people look and too little on how they think.

Ideal body weight and shape change like fashion. Remember President Taft? He weighed 300 pounds. A bathtub was installed in the White House for him that was big enough to hold four men. At that time to be "portly" was a sign of success. Marilyn Monroe was no lightweight, nor were any of the "sweater girls". Remember them?

There is a terrible concern at this time about being thin that often leads to anorexia or bulimia. My 26 year old granddaughter was hospitalized at the age of 14 for anorexia. She didn't eat because she thought she was too fat. To this day, she eats very little. Her 5' 9" body is pencil thin, and she still thinks she's fat.

Of the many teenagers I know who are in and out of my daughter's house, I don't know one who is overweight, and I don't know a child who is, either. That's fine, but when their television role models are so thin that you can almost see through them, what sort of example is that?

Common sense about eating and a small knowledge about nutrition is all it takes to avoid obesity. Kids are taught nutrition in schools today. I hope this teaching keeps some of them out of the hospital or from death from starvation because "thin" is fashionable.

Mal

Scootergal is a wonderful, courageous woman with an incredible sense of humor. Don't tell her, but I admire her very much. You didn't read that, did you, Scooter? If you did, I'm done for in the story we're writing in the Writing, Language and Word Play folder!

Mal

Other factors have contributed to the recent rise in the severity of food-borne illnesses. Some experts say these present a far greater threat to the health of Americans than pesticide residues and environmental contaminants.

Recent increases in the consumption of health-promoting fresh fruits and vegetables have resulted in greater exposure to diseases like hepatitis A, shigellosis and salmonellosis from contaminated produce. Along with a wide array of ethnic and exotic processed foods from all over the world, Americans can now enjoy an incredible variety of fresh produce year-round, thanks to imports from other countries, some of which are not as careful as they might be about agricultural hygiene. According to an infectious disease specialist at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine, there's been an increase in food-borne disease in recent years because of the globalization of the food supply.

Should we eat foods which come only from our own nation?

Robby

ROBBY asks "Should we eat food that comes only from our own nation?" As a nation ( New Zealand) that lives by exporting food,I would say definitely not! The US tries to restrict the import of food. She placed horrendous tariffs on Australasian Beef, lamb, wheat, fruits etc. though we do not impose similar restrictions on your exports. We even import Kiwifruit from California! Australia and NZ are taking action against the US, in the world court, and WTO, over these very matters. After all , many Americans have visited our shores, and as far as I know, no one has died , or even got ill from eating our foodstuffs. (BG)-- Trevor.

In no way am I aiming this remark at New Zealand or any other specific nation but our Food and Drug Administration has warned the last two administrations that systems for assuring the safety of imported foods are inadequate and outdated and the agency, along with the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, is expanding efforts to increase the safety of food processes abroad.

During the last decade, however, food poisoning outbreks have been caused by imported foods that include raspberries from Guatemala, carrots from Peru, mangoes from South America, strawberries, scallions and cantaloupes from Mexico, coconut milk from Thailand, canned mushrooms from China, a snack food from Israel, and alfalfa sprouts from several countries.

In all fairness, I must add that some of the largest and most serious food poisoning outbreaks have resultd from food safety violations within American borders. In the mid-1990's a nationwide outbreak of salmonellosis that afflicted an estimated 224,000 people stemmed from a single source -- a batch of Schwan's ice cream that became tainted with Salmonella enteritidis when the pasteruized ice cream premix was transported in tanker trailers previously used to carry unpasteruized liquid eggs.

Does anyone here relate these efforts to deTocqueville's comment above beginning with "In no country...?"

Robby

Most cases of food poisoning are caused by poor food handling hygiene in the domestic situation.

I am appalled at the ignorance of of people about very basic food handling.

Never use the same chopping board for raw meat and salad preparation without scrubbing the board after chopping the meat.

Keep hot foods hot and cold foods cold.

Only keep left overs maximum of 48 hours in the frig.

I never reheat a whole chicken but will reheat chicken casserole. I reheat any chicken which is not attached to the bone.

Only reheat food once. Throw away any leftovers from the reheated batch.

Wash you hands thoroughly before preparing food and wash between preparing meats and salads.

If you stick to this at home you will not get food poisoning from contamination.

Carolyn

When I subscribed to the UC at Berkeley Health and Wellness Newsletter (keep meaning to start again), I read results of a recent (last summer?) examination of vegetables and fruits for bacteria. To the editor's surprise, out of many imported and domestic foods, the most contaminated were peaches and greenbeans grown in the U.S. The foods receiving the highest/safest score were peaches from Mexico. I spent the summer carefully scrubbing or peeling peaches.

Speaking of peeling, I've read somewhere that to be safest, we should peel all fruits---apples, pears, peaches, plums, etc. I don't, but I think about each time I eat a piece of unpeeled fruit.

I have something with an odd green color in the back of one of my refrigerator shelves which sometimes seems to move. Should I check it out?

Robby

Politicians need a "straw-man" to knock over from time to time. This gives the public the illusion of boldness and power, but in reality is just a show-off. Sadaam Hussein is our current "straw-man". Whenever a show of force is deemed to be necessary for public relations, politicians huff and puff and blow him down again.

As we float along in the mainstream of time and observe America, today we see citizens across the land celebrating Presidents Day -- each in his or her own fashion. Mike Cantor, a few postings ago, suggested that we take this day to pause and reflect upon the 56th Anniversary of the Battle of Iwo Jima and to additionally reflect upon the thousands of veterans who were there or in other battles risking (and sometimes losing) their lives to protect our Democracy.

How are you celebrating Presidents Day? Is it a meaningful day to you? In my youth we celebrated Lincoln's Birthday on February 12th and Washington's Birthday on February 22nd. Some people have today off. Some do not. What is America doing today?

Robby

Welcome Jaybay! As you can see by the Heading and by the postings, we observe what America is doing and compare those events and beliefs with what Alexis deTocqueville observed 170 years ago.

Currently we are discussing Public Health in America and other Democracies but are pausing a bit at this point to see what America is doing on Presidents Day.

Come back and continue to share your thoughts with us.

Robby

It doesn't seem to mean anything any more. It was an enormously stupid idea to lump together the birthdays of our two of our most loved and important presidents. It was done to provide a weekend holiday for workers. I cannot imagine a business just folding up if it gave its' employees a day off at any time of the year. It is a disservice to both Washington nd Lincoln to couple two such diverse men. We, as did you, Robbie, celebrated these birthdays individually. We honored each man for his own unique contribution to our country. You ask "what are we doing today?"- not a damned thing that really honors these two real heroes.

Sounds as if I have taken a "nasty pill" upon awakening this morning. It is just that I'm pretty fed up with the many ways in which our country panders to commercialism and business. Education could use a little of this special treatment.

Hacked off, Mary

Realism is not necessarily "nasty."

Just lost a message I posted a short time ago about what are we doing to celebrate this Presidents Day.

Continuing comments on the outbreak of infectious diseases which begin right here in America--

An outbreak which sickened 61 people in Illinois, Connecticut and New York with the potential killer E.coli O157:H7, incluidng 21 people who required hospitalization and a 3-year-old child who spent 11 weeks in intensive care, was traced to a small lettuce farm in California. Intensive investigations eventually implicated packaged mixed baby lettuce that was most likely contaminated by feces from nearby cows and was not properly washed by the producer.

Shortcuts taken by a California producer of fresh-squeezed unpasteurized juices resulted in the death of a 16-month-old toddler in Colorado and the hospitalization of 13 other children sickened by the same virulent strain of E.coli. And, in the most infamous case, in 1993 contaminated hamburgers from Jack-in-the-Box restaurants in the Northwest resulted in the deaths of four children, who were among hundreds sickened by burgers containing E.coli O157:H7.

The disease-control centers estimate that E.coli O157:H7, which was unknown as a cause of food poisoning before 1980, now infects as many as 20,000 Americans a year and kills up to 500. In addition to packaged lettuce, ground beef and unpasteurized apple juice, the organism has been identified in alfalfa sprouts and deeer jerky.

Robby

Interesting that E Coli was not a problem until after 1980. Surely handling is due to carelessness as equipment used for processing surely is better than it was earlier. I don't know what you can do about products such as juice or ice cream. However, I lived in Turkey for 2 years and as the water was unsafe to drink and fruits and veggies were known to be fertilized with human waste, we had to soak all fruits and veggies in water to which a small amount of clorox was added. Then it was rinsed with clean bottled water. Bottled water was used for the soaking process, too. I read not long ago that this practice is recommended here in the USA. Even bananas and other items, like canteloupe. My daughter has always done this. I do on occasion but am a little lax. I don't know the amount of clorox to add for sure. I would say a couple of teaspoon fulls to a gallon of water. If someone knows the correct ratio, I would like to know it.

By the way, I don't think all overweight is due to gluttony!! That is a pretty strong term. For us in the Weight Loss Discussion, who were invited here, that sure doesn't help our self -esteem.

Ah, the mention of lettuce reminded me....from that same UC Health and Wellness newsletter, prepackaged salad greens got a terrible score. So, it was suggested we buy our salad makings separately.

Also, what's the name of that woman who publishes cleaning tips, Helen? Helene? Anyway, she has always contended that vinegar surely kills as many germs as clorox, but has never "guaranteed" it. Finally, she had a lab do a comparison study and found that vinegar, indeed, is as effective as clorox in ridding countertops, etc. of germs. (I have always added vinegar to floor-washing liquids---and we probably all use it to clean older coffee machines.) Using it saves money. Also, the disagreeable smell is gone within 30 minutes of using it. I still use clorox in the bathroom and on kitchen countertops, though.

Martex:--Welcome to our Discussion Group! I agree with you. Some folks believe that being overweight is always due to gluttony. I am not one of those. Genes and others factors certainly enter in.

Please continue to post with us and give us your thoughts on the current sub-topic of Public Health.

Robby

You don't have to use bottled water. You can boil water for 10 minutes and kill every speck of bacteria in it. Ultra violet kills viruses.

Under the new plan, mentioned earlier, where doctors will no longer be able to veto disclosure of the findings of investigation, investigators will have to tell patients whether their care met "professionally recognized standards of health care" and inform them of any action against the doctor or the hospital.

The new policy came in response to a lawsuit against the government by the son of a Medicare patient who was admitted to a hospital in Jacksonville, Fla., in 1998 after an asthma attack and after experiencing high blood pessure. The patient died of a stroke six days later, while still a patient at the hospital.

The plaintiff had concerns about his mother's care. He filed a complaint, which was investigated by a group of medical quality experts known as a peer review organization. The plaintiff and his lawyer filed the lawsuit, in which they argued that the old Medicare policy violated federal law.

Said the plaintiff: "I was curious to know whether the hospital or the doctors did anything that contributed to her death. A nurse told my sister that our mother had received a very high dose of asthma medication." The Florida peer review group had initially denied the plaintiff's request for information.

The lawsuit is pending in Federal District Court in Washington.

Robby

There was an article about Americans not drinking enough water. That this was the reason we are overweight. But I can not find it so I can post it.

Anyway - if we are thirsty sometimes we think we are hungary.

I am trying hard to drink more water!

FrancyLou:--Thank you for that comment about drinking sufficient water. Public Health experts constantly remind us to drink water constantly, not only because it helps to stay away from eating, but because of its aid to health in many other ways. Unfortunately, as has been commented on here from time to time, America seems attached to drinking soda pop rather than water.

Robby

I am buying bottled water - because I can use it exactly as if it was a can of soda, where I go it goes.

Sorry I gave the impression that you had to use bottled water here in the USA. We had no choice in Turkey. No way even boiling the water would make it fit to drink there. It was a deep red and had a visible "cloud" of bacteria in it. Consequently, white items of laundry were all tinged a brownish orange color. We couldn't use bottled water for laundry or bathing (too expensive and impractical) but I wish we could have.

Also, I did read not long ago that the USA is over using antibacterial cleaning products. All it is doing is making the bacteria more resistant. So, by and large, for just ordinary cleaning, regular soap should do the trick. From surveys, regular soap destroyed as much bacteria as the antibacterial products. We are already in danger of overusing (overabusing) antibiotics for every little sniffle that comes along. Now we are in danger of not having an antibiotic that will work against the new strains of bacteria that we are causing.

I use to be an RN and believe me, if you want to get sick, just check into the hospital. Be thankful if your doctor sends you home right away. The longer you stay, the greater your chance is of getting sick. Watch next time you are visiting someone in the hospital or you are at the doctor's office. Does the staff use the sink in your room before they examine you? Do they spend 2 minutes washing?

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I am quite concerned about all of these things. I also dislike salad and dessert bars in restaurants. I shudder about the practices in the kitchen but all the people using the salad bar? I am surprised more of us aren't getting sick or dying.

Martex:--Just the thought of water which is "deep red" scares the daylights out of me!! I need to hear stories like this to help me feel more gratitude that we have a government (no matter how imperfect it may be) that watches out for my health.

I agree with you about a hospital being a dangerous place. I see patients there regularly and when I am ready to leave, I wash my hands thoroughly three times in a row. However, I repeat, hospitals here (with all their imperfections) are far ahead of many nations in the world with certain exceptions.

Robby

I am not sure if it is still the same but a couple of years ago our Snowbirds were put into quarrantine if they had been hospitalized in the US. It seems that they were getting infections in the hospitals down there and 'sharing' them when they came back to Canadian hospitals.

Don't feel too secure about our hospitals. We don't place in the top ten. Even things like childbirth is more dangerous than in some other countries.

A group of 60 of the country's largest companies have announced plans to push hospitals to reduce medical errors that are to blame for the deaths of tens of thousands of patients each year. The "Leapfrog Group", which includes General Motors, General Electric, AT&T, Boeing and I.B.M., said they would encourage their employees to use hospitals that act to improve patient safety. The companies also plan to favor hospitals where doctors order prescription drugs and medical services on computerized systems that reject dangerous mistakes. Only seven percent of the country's 4,800 hospitals have these systems.

Favored hospitals will be expected to hire specialist doctors called intensivists to supervise intensive care units for patients with life-threatening conditions. And patients with cancer and other high-risk diseases will be directed to hospitals that hzve relatively high success rates.

Robby

The employers' group mentioned above was formed last year after a study by the Institute of Medicine Unit of the National Academy of Sciences said at least 44,000 hospital patients died each year because of preventable mistakes. The companies in the group insure a total of 20 million people.

However, a senior vice president of the American Hospital Association, a trade group, questioned the employer group's standards. She said hospitals that were short on cash might hesitate to buy expensive computerized ordering systems or to hire intensive care spcialists. Both involve new concepts, she said. And, she added, in some cases families of high-risk patients like premature infants, might prefer a nearby hospital to one further away with experience based on a high volume of difficult cases.

Robby

I just saw another post of Martex's and said I would post it here:

Regarding water...75% of Americans are chronically dehydrated.

In 37% of Americans, the thirst mechanism is so weak that it is often mistaken for hunger.

Even MILD dehydration will slow down one's metabolism as much as 3%.

One glass of water shuts down midnight hunger pangs for almost 100% of dieters .

Lack of water is the #1 trigger of daytime fatigue.

Preliminary research indicates that 8-10 glasses of water a day could significantly ease back pain and joint pain for up to 80% of sufferers.

A mere 2% drop in body water can trigger fuzzy short-term memory, trouble with basic math, and difficulty focusing on the computer screen or on a printed page.

Drinking 5 glasses of water daily decreases the risk of colon cancer by 45%; plus it can slash the risk of breast cancer by 79%, and one is 50% less likely to develop bladder cancer.

This is very important news!!!

Thanks, Martex!

Linda

Spread it around as much as you want. I felt it was very important. My memory problems and joint pain may very well be due to lack of water. Sometimes (quite often) I may drink two cups of coffee in the morning and nothing else all day. That is in the winter. I do better in the summer.

I am sorry, Robby. Getting off topic. But this could be a reason for overweight.

I knew I saw that somewhere! That was what I wanted to post.

Many people are dismayed when they look at the notoriously inefficient health care system, particularly at the task of persuading the nation's harried, technology-averse doctors to wire their practices. There is a gap between medical and Silicon Valley.

In the case of hospitals, the reasons for the delays often include money. Cuts by the government in Medicare and Medicaid spending, combined with constantly declining reimbursements from managed care companies and skycrocketing drug costs have made it difficult for medical centers to find the budget to expand their information systems as much as they would have liked. Mergers have further complicatd matters.

Hospitals love technology when it means complicated new machines to help diagnose and treat diseases, but they are not always attracted to software that calls for changes in age-old routines.

How up to date is your local hospital? Does it use the latest software? And how about your physician?

Robby

North Korea's health system has collapsed. How does this affect us in the U.S. and the rest of the world? To read the New York Times article about this, click the link below.

North Korea health system

Sure, there are lots of things that may cause serious illness or even death, but I don't think most of these make up more than a small fraction of the dangers that we humans face each day. The greatest risk any of us have faced is the very act of birth itself. It's all down hill from there.

Of course we should wash our food before we eat it, cook it properly also, and be sanitary about it. It is wise to wash one's hands before eating, and keep them clean as possible. Don't put fingers in the mouth or any other orifice without washing before and afterwards. Look before crossing streets. Drive carefully. Go for regular checkups, and follow up on what the doctor says. Use a little common sense. Death and taxes are inevitable, we all know. If I had my druthers, I'd rather be in Philadelphia when it comes to the former, but unfortunately we don't have a choice.

Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think.

Bob C

Do the rest of you agree with Roberto that it is all downhill from birth?

Martex and Linda - Thanks for the stats about how little water we drink. I believe its true. Since I have been drinking at least 8 glasses of filtered water a day I feel better. But what makes people less thirsty is what I would like to know..

Roberto - I don't agree with you about "its downhill all the way after birth" please explain what you mean by that. I think that I had it easy in life in spite of a few things that happened to us in childhood. We see too much on the news about illnesses in the world, it makes us feel helpless and discouraged, but life expentency is still around 80 years of age. I don't freak about germs and viruses. Humans develop immune systems if we don't alter what nature made genetically, with pesticides or insecticides people could reach 120 years old.

Some centers saw the revolution coming years ago and built their own systems. The most highly recognized is Intermountain Health Care, which runs 22 hospitals in Idaho, Utah and Wyoming. Its highlights include computerized drug monitoring, electronic bedside charts and a robotic pharmacy delivery system, as well as a system in which doctors can enter orders for patient care in a hand-held computer.

University of Massachusetts has particularly benefitd from the new ability to integrte vast amounts of patient information into a single chart stored online. With X-rays and blood tests and other data centralized, decisions can be made more quickly and confidently. Having an entire patient record also allows doctors to talk families through their loved one's entire medical history after a death, right there on one screen, to help them ake sense of it all.

Does any of this remind you of your hospital?

Robby

There are two fine essays by Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca in the March issue of The WREX Pages, which just went on the World Wide Web. The first is What is a Minority? The second is Can We Learn in Later Years? These are essays which should be read by every member of SeniorNet, in the opinion of this editor-publisher. You'll also find Irish stories for St. Patrick's Day, a story about celebrating Mardi Gras in New Orleans, a page of original water color paintings, and much, much more, all works done by participants in SeniorNet. Click the link below to access the index cover. Scroll down for Robby's essays, please.

The WREX Pages

Do the realities of this sometimes "harsh" world sometimes get to you? Click onto the WREX Link above and you will also find a delightful piece entitled "Bella and the Salt Lick," written by Idris, a regular participant in this forum who joins us from Canada from time to time. Give yourself a relaxing treat!!

Robby

Finished catching up reading the last 120 posts. Thank you for thinking of us Cathy

The difference between fatness and obesity is the amount.

The support of the Japanese medical system to seniors is great. I paid 10% only of the charges, up from 5% last year. I just wish the medical procedures were as good. My last surgery was done by a Dr. without gloves on a skin that was not cleaned and the post procedure was covering the open wound with non sterile gauze pad plus tape cut by non sterile scissors in a university (teaching) hospital.

Before that an angina attack was diagnosed as intercostal neuralgia caused by the humidity in the air. The explanation for intercostal neuralgia was pain between the ribs. Don't go running to your reference sources because the term does not exist in Stedmans Medical Dictionary or in Merck's. Be grateful that you live in the US for better or worse. It could be worse.

Jere gives us another perspective:-- "Be grateful that you live in the US for better or worse. It could be worse."

Are you willing to accept unsanitary procedures (given in a teaching hospital, no less!) in return for paying far less money? Jere forces us to back up and think. What is GOOD about health practices in America?

Robby

Jere there are several sites for Intercostal Neuralgia. Here are a couple.

Intercostal Neuralgia

Intercostal Neuralgia Overview

ELOISE DE PELTEAU, what I meant by that is when you consider the astronomical odds of each of us even being conceived, from a single egg, and the millions of sperm cells struggling to hit the jackpot, that is truly the one really major achievement of life, our actual conception. Of course we have no memory of that, except for Shirley McLaine, but when you think about it, what else could possibly come up to that?

About that magical age you referred to, I have reached that plus one, not without a struggle, of course, but putting all of life's challenges and obstacles into perspective, I can't think of a single thing that can even come close to the miracle of one's conception and birth.

Bob C

Health experts tell us that "quality medicine" is prevention. A hospital of the 21st century is an Intensive Care Unit and an organization whose unit is knowledge and expertise.

E-health will take care almost completely out of the hospital. Medical devices that use the Internet to connect home and doctor open vast new possibilities for improving care and lowering costs. Says an executive of I.B.M.: "If someone has congestive heart failure and we give him a bathroom scale with a modem, it would decrease costs. He goes to a party, gains two pounds because he is retaining fluid, and that scale calls to my case managers, locks the fridge, and says order a diurectic. The bathroom scale is a pervasive cmmputing device that decreases admissions."

Robby

That was an interesting statement from the IBM executive, Robby, and having been personally connected as a recipient of the IBM Health Benefit Plan for over 40 years I can state definitely that IBM has always encouraged preventive health care.

As far as "locking my fridge", I personally would strongly object to any health care provider going that far! That is a bit too patriarchal for my taste.

I found the following interesting article and I have posted the introduction which is a good description of eHealth.

"eHealth refers to all forms of electronic healthcare delivered over the Internet, ranging from informational, educational and commercial "products" to direct services offered by professionals, non-professionals, businesses or consumers themselves. eHealth includes a wide variety of the clinical activities that have traditionally characterized telehealth, but delivered through the Internet. Simply stated, eHealth is making healthcare more efficient, while allowing patients and professionals to do the previously impossible."

---"Delivering Behavioral Telehealth via the Internet: eHealth" by Marlene M. Maheu, Ph.D. 02/01/00

The rest of the article can be found at http://telehealth.net/articles/deliver.html

Phyll:--Thank you for those interesting facts about eHealth.

There are few industries that have more to gain from the Internet revolution than medicine. Some of the central components driving this industry are rapid advancements in bio technology and medical reserarch, increasingly curious patients who shop the Web for medical information, and pressures from managed care companies to contain costs and speed treatments.

What is commonly referred to as medicine's "dirty open secret" is the glut of errors that occur in hospitals. Says the general manager of global health care industry at I.B.M.: "Hospitals are real laggards when it comes to the Internet. What most hospitals are doing is trying to go from bricks to clicks, but the system is still based on bricks, which is not going to get us there."

deTocqueville said 170 years ago: "The love of well-being is now become the predominant taste of the nation." How modernized are the hospitals in your area?

Robby

I live in an area that has three teaching hospitals: Duke Hospital System (internationally known), University of North Carolina Hospital System which is based in Chapel Hill but has recently bought the private hospital that I have been admitted to several times, and then we have the Wake Co. Hospital system in Raleigh which has a fine Cardiac Unit and also has several satellite hospitals, one of which is in my town of Cary. Add to that the Raleigh Community Hospital which is trying to increasingly delve into the field of Geriatrics. They are all apparently well into leading edge technology but I admit that I don't know if any of them have ventured very far into the eHealth field. It is possible that they have and I just don't know about it.

Physicians, pharmacists and federal regulators are increasingly concerned about what they say is a growing number of drug shortages, particularly at hospitals. The director of pharmacy at Columbus Regional Medical Center in Columbus, Ga., said: "This past year's shortages have been the worst I've seen in 26 years of hospital practice. We have not had any life-threatening cases, but it certainly could have happened."

There is no single reason for the shortages. Some stem from the drug industry's rapid consolidation, which has led to fewer companies making each drug or supplying the raw materials. In some cases, regulators found problems at factories making the drugs and shut down production until procedures were improved. And some big drug companies have stopped making the older drugs and have instead reserved factory capacity for newer drugs, which bring higher profits.

Any shortages in your area?

Robby

I almost hate to post this, for fear of jinxing something, but I went to a new doctor yesterday in Austin. Besides being a diplomat in two AMA specialties (I checked with AMA) and working with others to make "pain" an AMA specialty that could have diplomat status, this doctor's whole office is high-tech.

Pretty much everything we talked about was being recorded on the computer in real time by the nurse (copy for me to take home) and everything to the pharmacist was computer generated (copy to me). My next appointment was on a computer print-out, with instructions on how to modify with my computer. I have to email the nurse by next week with specific answers about side-effects to a new medicine.

The above is relevant to our discussion. Beyond that was the best discovery for me, though. This doctor is as up to date (with journal articles, other information) as I am, on my particular neuromuscular disease. That's almost unheard of---only happened one other time in my life. I handed him a recent University of Washington med school study and he KNEW about it and was as excited as I was about it, then told me of what was happening in the same group of researchers!! I could have hugged him.

He'll probably move out of state in 3 months.....who was that comedian who always started his schtick with "with my luck..." All in all, my "luck" is good, but my run of average to below average doctors had hammered down any optimism in this department. It was time for a change.

I believe that doctors are surprised that patients are learning from the use of computers and are ready to give opinions. That was something that doctors have never known before. My niece chose her surgeon from much research done on her computer. WOW!! What a wonderful choice she made. Instead of a 30 year old having her knee fused he saved it for her.

Kath, I found this doctor by beginning at the AMA internet site. Maybe I should have gone this route before now.

Medical treatments available today, especially for the degenerative diseases of age, generally help patients get along with failing hearts or arthritic joints but do not make whole the underlying damage. What is now being called "regenerative medicine" will provide youthful tissues in place of those that are old or damaged. This, proponents say, will ultimately include the prolongation of life by regenerating our aging bodies with younger cells. This will lead to patients returning from the hospital with new tissues and organs.

"Given the right cues," says a researcher at the National Institutes of Health, "the body's tissues are self-assembling. Stem cells can turn into heart muscle." He adds: "In two years people will routinely be reconstituting liver, regenerating heart, routinely building pancreatic islets, routinely putting cells into brain that get incorporated into the normal circuitry. They will routinely be rebuilding all tissues."

Do you believe this will happen and are you ready emotionally for this new medical advance?

Robby

Roberto - Just as I thought. When you say its downhill all the way you really mean its uphill all the way don't you?. Its sheer divine intervention that we are conceived and that we reach an advanced age without getting 'dead' along the way. Life has always fascinated me. Why do I have this soul/mind. Why was I born in this century instead of the one before? Why was I born a woman here in Quebec? The "why" is not important because this life here on earth is temporary. What's important is eternity.

Robby - In two years according to this researcher we will be able to get replacements parts for worn out ones? Will we be able to get new 'everything' or just a few new parts? Two years is a very short time and the hospitals will have to get the latest technology. Are pharmaceuticals going to get in on the act?

Today in the province of Quebec, all pharmacies closed their doors to protest a new government threat to nationalize medication. Just a reminder that a small glitch can derail any advances in medical practices.

Life is beautiful is you are healthy I guess.

Eloise:--I'm sure the pharmaceutical corporations will get into the act but I'm not sure how. Undoubtedly, medications will be required. The body's 100 trillion cells govern themselves through an exchange of chemical signals. Cells secrete chemical signals to influence the behavior of other cells, and they receive signals through special receptors embedded in their surfaces.

The entire commnicatins system of the human body, a set of some 11,000 signaling factors and their receptors, has been identified and captured by Human Genome Sciences, a corporation. Human Genome Sciences has applied for 9,200 patents on the genes involved and has been granted United States patents on 146. It has built a plant to manufacture these factors and it has advanced four of them to clincal trials.

Those two years will pass rapidly!!

Robby

I don't have the specific numbers in front of me, but was anyone else as blown away as I was when the genome project announced that, to its surprise, we have far fewer genes than was previously thought? If I remember correctly, it was about half the total predicted. Not only have all our genes been identified, but---playing with the numbers reported---we're half as mysterious as they thought we were.

As pitiful as our health care delivery system is and as MANY changes are needed to upgrade hospitals, etc., etc., we're living in the most amazing time of medical research breakthroughs. Not too many years ago, I would have said "not in my lifetime" to many unsolved medical mysteries....but I've completely stopped saying that. The gene marker of my neuromuscular disorder was pinpointed about ten years ago, but no one knew what to do with that information. Today, gene markers are being identified right and left for all kinds of variations of my disorder---variations that were not even known just a few years ago. The reporting of these variations are routine updates now, not big "breakthroughs." There are so many true breakthroughs going on all over the world---how does the medical community, even researchers, stay up with it all??!!

I was delighted that it has been proved we are all 99.9% the same! The fact that we have only a few more genes than mice Was a stunner.

So gratified you made that move, Betty.

I keep searching the skies for the snow we are due today.

Betty Gregory!

How nice for you to find a doctor that brings out your hugging instincts! I have not been so fortunate. For one thing my doctor is available only one day a week at my health clinic (I do like him), but I mostly deal with his Physician's Assistance or PA. This PA has the bedside manner of an attack dog. She can reduce me to a trembling blob of "Yes mam/No mam" quicker than a snap of fingers. She is an ugly, rotund and I mean ROTUND blob. I know this sounds cruel, but some people in the health field are not very good examples of their trade. I don't like leaving the health clinic feeling like I wish I had advised her to heal herself first. I am seriously thinking of changing my health care providers. Who needs this kind of turmoil when one is recovering from an illness? (I sincerely hope she is not one of our lurkers!

And I kind of hope she is. Do her good!

Mary:--And not only did it show that we are 99.9% the same but that our genes are not that different from the worm.

Robby

The next time I see a worm (I can easily wait)I am sure I will remember Walt Whitman's "There but for the grace of God, go I."

One trial in the field of regenerative medicine is that involving a protein that stimulats the cells of the skin and inner body linings to heal wounds. It is being tested on patients with nonhealing ulcers.

Another stimulator protein is a major player in the body's immune system. Human Genome Sciences plans to try it on patients with defective immune systems and to test a drug that suppresses the protein in patients with lupus, an autoimmune disease wehre the protein is overactive.

Would you agree that this fits in with deTocqueville's quote above beginning: "The object...?"

Robby

Cathy, the instinct to hug was directly related to the past rage felt about incompetence, insensitivity, discrimination and disinterest. When confronted with an absence of those behaviors, I felt like hugging.

I've always liked worms. The wiggley kind that burrow in the earth, that is. Not Worms, as in low-down, sneaky, messin-around Men!

See, in our primitive brains we have always been aware of the connection!

The head of the Human Genome Sciences describes human beings as "self-assembling organisms." He says: "The information is there to be captured and used. If we have all the genes, we can find which gene creates the desired medical response in a cell. It's a fundamental principle of regenerative medicine that we only have to trigger the body to do what it needs to do."

Stem cells are the living clay from which the body is sculptured and repaired. Stem cells are dull and featureless but they can morph into blood, skin, bone or any of the body's other replaceable tissues. And they retain the gift of self-renewal which, to curb the risk of cancer, is withdrawn from all the body's mature cells. Although stem cells are not immortal, they last a long time.

Isn't what is going on before our very eyes an amazing process of learning and application? What the mind can conceive, "man" can achieve.

Robby

Man has tried for well over 200 years to be treated as if his race is unimportant! It is you know! It is very important! Man is an acknowledgement that his existance counts or not! How many sentences have we had that TRUTH emphasised? It matters not what your race, YOU ARE here and very important! Don't release your importance because you don't understand the concept.

Robby, you are right. It is amazing, and I am immensely gratified to be alive to see it happen.

Aside from our gigantic leaps in biological knowledge here, I am fascinated with where our discoveries are taking us philosophically. This area is not one for us to discuss in this forum, as it would trample on too many deeply held personal beliefs. But just to generalize for a moment, it would seem huge segments of our global population are not ready for these revelations, and are skating on extremely fragile ice as far as their religious convictions are concerned. I find myself watching to see when the backlash is going to come and of what it is going to consist. It is very much a parallel, socially, with the discoveries of Copernicus and Galileo. They were ordered to recant or be burned at the stake!

It is indeed fortunate that we have a separation of church and state here in America. No one is going to be able to avail themselves of the power to put a stop to where these discoveries are taking us!

True, there is tremendous progress in the field of medicine, and I am one of the many beneficiaries. However, the very medication that is of such help, Enbrel, is indeed in limited supply, as per the question of Robby. I have had to register in order to be able to continue receiving this drug. A new plant is being constructed to increase production, but until it is completed, I wonder how many will be denied its benefit? Also the cost is outrageous and out of sight for those who do not have the necessary health coverage. A truly dreadful situation.

I for one am somewhat skeptical about the daily announcements of medical breakthroughs. Most if not all seem to be not the two years away that Robby refers to, but at least five or more. I feel there is an optimistic approach in these fields that is not merited by actual results.

There is, for example, tremendous opposition to the use of stem cell research, which is tied in with fetal tissue. Politics and medicine do not mix. I have read recently of a breakthrough in use of the umbilical cord, that may replace the need for fetal cells. Hopefully our politicians will not find objection to this. There has also been a breakthrough in the use of circumscision tissue in the field of burns. The tissue is cultivated, and used as a protective cover for burned areas. Maybe our politicians will stay out of these things, but who knows?

Bob C

Mary:--Alexis deTocqueville made numerous comments on the topic of religion in America but with the forebearance of everyone here, I suggest we get to that topic at a later date -- we will not ignore it as it is most definitely a part of the origin of America -- and remain for a bit on the topic of Physical Well-being which deT also considered important.

Roberto is of a pessimistic bent on the topic of Public Health. He believes that Regenerative Medicine will take more than two years to arrive. He is skeptical about the daily announcements of medical breakthroughs. He wonders if politics will win out over medical research and application.

Are we being too optimistic as we look forward to the field of medicine and Public Health in our lifetime?</B.

Robby

Embryonic stem cells are created in the very early embryo -- from them, all the bodies' tissues and organs are generated. Once the body is formed, the embryonic stem cells disappear, leaving behind a few descendants to keep the body in good repair throughout its lifetime.

Biologists at GERON of Menlo Park, Cal, have succeeded in making human enmbryonic cells develop into heart muscle cells. The source of the brain's stem cells was discovered only last year -- in the lining of the brain's fluid-filled ventricles -- and the skin stem cells' hideout was identified this past August as a special pocket half-way up the root of the hair follicles that stud the skin.

Does anyone here get the thrilling feeling that we are detectives tracking down items that Nature is "hiding" from us?

Robby

Just don't forget that the politics that could stop discoveries that could, and indeed will, cure our ills is driven by religious views.

Mary:--I agree and we will most certainly get later to that topic. As those who have read deT know, he said much on that subject.

Robby

It is hard for me to believe that great effort to improve the longevity of the common man will ever be undertaken by any government let alone in the United States.

I don't like to believe that I am a cynic, but it seems to stretch the life span will only compound the problems of survival without great strides in environmental know-how. I just don't think the political climate will encourage such applications of extending the life span of the multitudes.

In other words, I believe that such marvels of rejuvination will be reserved for the proven worthy. What a nightmare for the common man that is.

RE: my post #428, Kath 430, Betty Gregory 437 and Eloise # forgotten.

That doctor that performed with an absence of antisepsis was in a very modern brand new annex. My card in the reader slot in the lobby notified the doctor I have arrived for the appointment. When I see him he writes his notes on the screen where my previous visits and history are shown. He calls up the pharmacy screen and prescribes medicine which is waiting for me for pickup. He schedules my next appointment and the computer calculates the time, what he did, and notifies the accounting department what to bill me for. When I get to the lobby after picking up the medicine waiting for me, the bill is there waiting for me on a print out. It is a GREAT improvement. I only wish I could get him to wash his hands before touching me.

My point is we can modernize the hospital/school better and faster than we can modernize the doctor/teacher. A point we had best not to forget.

Jere

In reference to Jere's comment about "washing hands." There are others here who may be more knowledgeable about this than I but if I remember correctly, I read somewhere that in this past century's move toward improved Public Health, what with all the various developments, by far the action that made the greatest difference was getting the average person to wash his hands and keep himself clean generally.

Robby

If Science finds cures for everything the world will become overpopulated.

What happens then? We only allow the most perfect to recreate. We breed a super race. We sterilise the genetically imperfect or the ugly so they do not reproduce.

Man is arrogant!

Carolyn

Only the perfect will be allowed. I heard on the news that a baby will be cloned this year. Good grief...I for one am not ready for this. Maybe man is tampering too much.

Martex:--Good to have you posting with us!!

Following the comments of Carolyn and Martex, should we let Nature "do its thing" and stop trying to find cures?

Robby

No! Bring on the cures!

And cloning is okay. We just have to adjust our sensibilities to the notion. Remember, all sci-fi and/or horror stories aside, all babies still have to be grown in a uterus and born the normal way, each in its own time, but in general in 9 months. Ergo, the pictures of legions of soldiers, all exact replicates of one another, is hog wash. Identical twins are Clones. They are. So are the extremely rare identical triplets. Yet they have different personalities and talents. This whole area is nothing to worry about.

Our grandchildren will have to wrestle with factories making babies. Seriously. We will learn to grow humans completely without the bodies of women. Well folks, we won't have to deal with That One!

CAROLYN expresses this concern in her comments, if we continue with medical breakthroughs to prolong life. Well, that is not something in the future, but to a certain degree is happening right now. Multi-millions of people in the less developed parts of the world are left to suffer and die, not because of lack of food or medicine to feed the hungry and treat the sick, but the greed of the "halves", who rather than being willing and anxious, as they should be, to help their fellow man and woman, look only to making a profit. That can't be done with these suffering fellow human beings, since they have little or nothing to begin with. Therefore only those with the means to purchase the benefits of these medical breakthroughs will benefit. It's been that way down through the ages. Of course that doesn't rule out mass uprisings, which will lead to chaos. In many areas of the world that is occurring right now. Let us hope it won't be one step forward and two steps back.

Bob C

Instead of dwelling on horror stories out of science fiction, let's consider the positive aspects of genetic technology and therapy. If muscle rejuvenation through genetic therapy had been possible when I had polio, my whole life would have been different and much, much easier than it has been. The same is true for Betty's neuro-muscular disease and for my son's liver problem caused by Hepatitis C. There is already research being done for genetic therapy to be used in cases of diabetes, MS, muscular distrophy, cancer and AIDS. Don't we want these plagues on humanity to be cured in whatever good way is possible? I think we do.

Mal

I do think morally we have a lot to worry about with the development of cloning. It will be a sad day for humanity if they ever dispense with the womb for nurturing a foetus.

There are scientists who have pushed the ethical boundaries for decades. We today are living both in the most exciting and the most potentially devestating time in history.

I have no problem with cures being found for many illnesses but the genome project is going further than that and we will soon have "The fountain of youth drug" Then as Bob C says the drug companies will ignore the developing nations because of inability to pay and we could in the worst scenario end up with one of two nations being the only ones left on the planet with any sizable population and the black nations being left to die out from diseases such as aids and the ebola virus. Dont say it could never happen! It could!

Carolyn

I have no problem with body parts, such as growing a liver for harvesting. However, cloning is something else. Would you like cures that happened because a baby was cloned and then they slaughtered the baby to use the body parts? This is no more far fetched than anything else. It could happen. Lots of unethical people and companies around. My one word to sum up the 1990's is GREED.

By the way, thank you for the welcome, Robby. However, I really don't belong in here as I am not an intellectual. I speak only from the heart.

Carolyn and Martex, cloned does not mean manufactured. Cloned is a egg that has been manipulated to grow a perfect copy of the DNA placed in it. It still has to grow 9 months in a woman. It still has to be born. It is still 100% human; as I pointed out, just as human as anyone's identical twin is.

The RULE OF LAW makes a born human being a citizen of the state she is born in (as of now, all clones are and will be female!). No citizen may be put to death in the name of science or for any other reason, except, of course, where capital punishment is allowed.

Martex:--This forum has been active since its inception last July. And it is so because it has many participants who speak from the heart. You are in the right discussion group.

Robby

I appreciate it.

Mary...what is the difference between manufactured and manipulated? I am sorry, but I don't believe in playing God. Who gets "custody" of these babies? Surrogate mothers are usually paid to have babies. Will they be paid. I understand that the first one will be DNA from a dying woman. I guess the husband of the woman will be the custodian. Poor child...is it Daddy or Hubby?

In a Greek myth, a youth beloved by the goddess of the dawn made the error of asking her for gift of eternal life instead of eternal youth. Later, bowed by miseries of age to which death could not put a natural end, Tithonus begged her to withdraw her gift, something that even Greek gods could not do. She did, however, provide the apparent consolation of turning him into a grasshopper.

Companies purusing regenerative medicine in its various forms are reluctant to talk about extending the maximum human life span. Says the chief executive of Geron: "Our objective is to increase health span, not life span. Our hope would be that our children live a great fraction of their life in wellness."

Robby

The woman carrying the child has first legal rights to it. If she has a contract to carry it for an infertile couple, then it is theirs. Exactly the same as for any other baby.

You can use your search engine to get information on cloning. I particularly recommend the sites with information from scientific journals. No other sites are truly to be trusted, as some tend to magnify myths and expand ignorance on the subject.

The main thing to remember is that Twins are Clones. Haven't you known a lot of identical twins? They can be very different People! You even get so you can tell them apart, even when faced with only one of them.

Then I give up. hahah. Twins now are not clones. Maybe we should leave it that way. As I said before, I don't believe in playing God. There are plenty of children in the world today, there is no need to clone them.

Organ parts are different. It would be nice to be able to make a liver for a person who needs one.

I just want to get along...not get into debates.

Click the link below for an article about a protein spray which has been developed to help heal large sores in elderly people.

Protein Spray

There is one thing that has not been mentioned here to alleviate fears about cloning of human beings. That is the world wide controls that would be and are placed on companies which participate in genetic research, development, technology and therapy. There are numerous articles available right now on the World Wide Web about controls placed on genetic altering of plants and animals today.

I just read an article about a manufactured artificial skin which has only recently been approved by the FDA for use in a childhood disease where the touch of a finger can create painful blisters on the skin. This is not genetic technology, but it is controversial technology. As long ago as twenty years before now, my ex-husband's research company developed an artificial skin from pigskin. Pigskin is very similar to human skin. It was not approved by the FDA here in the United States, though it is used in Europe for the treatment of burn patients. The FDA is one of the hardest nuts to crack when developing new research. As any scientist. He or she will tell you.

There are all kinds of controls the world over on scientific research, and especially genetic research and development. You can find more information about this by going to your favorite search engine and doing a search on Controls on Genetic Research, Development and Therapy.

Mal

Betty Gregory--

Back in 1985, while I was in California, I had reason to investigate the use of (then, very new) PCs in medical practice. I bought journals, sent off for demo software, etc. and decided to go into business automating doctors' offices. Well, no one was ready for that, at that point, and after a year or so I decided it wasn't worth all the effort I was putting into it and decided to stick to my tech writing. I'm so glad to hear that there is one doctor who is using the technology to advantage. Every time I go into a doctor's office and see those huge racks of paper files I grit my teeth. The time they must spend looking for the file, reviewing the file, giving the file to the Dr. to review, getting the Dr. to write his comments on the file, and refiling the darn thing must be enormous. If more doctors operated as yours did, they'd have a heck of a lot more time for the patients, and--I think--maybe fewer mistakes. Is there a chance I'll live long enough to see automated Dr. offices in general?

Thanks, MaryPage, for the excellent example of twins with identical DNA as clones. That example will help a lot when I talk with others about their concerns on cloning. So many existing studies on twins show the impact of environment---especially those documented cases of twins raised apart. Twins may have identical susceptibility to heart disease but grow up with very different personalities. They might both be highly intelligent but one might be motivated to finish college and the other may not.

The gene configuration on one of my chromozones is identical to my mother's and three brothers. We all have the same neurological disorder, a very slowly progressive disorder that weakens the lower legs and hands. All four of us, though, have dealt with this identical genetic based disorder in different ways. Drastically different ways. We're four very different people and sometimes it drives me crazy that the one thing you would THINK we could agree upon are the ins and outs of managing the same physical disability---but that's rarely the case.

After all these years, Mother and Dad finally decided to redo their whole house, inside and out, last year. I was so relieved, thinking that finally, they would do something to help my mother get around in a very inaccessible house. Nope....all cosmetic changes---new carpet, new cabinet doors, countertops, wallpaper, etc. A few inexpensive changes would have helped my mother tremendously, but she ignored my suggestions. They're weird, anyway.

The possible result of cloning that intriques me is the probability of a new form of caste system. Such as: those humans pretailored by cloning would be superior to those pot-luck from the human womb. Can you imagine the legal entanglements? Just filling out an application for a job would probably ask if one were a clone or a "natural" born entity. Would the parents of a clone have the ease of bonding that comes with the natural birth of a baby? Would cloning be a tool for creating a work force; or would the clone, being of superior concoction, eventuly make the "naturals" a laboring force? If a natural married a clone would their child be a half-breed? ETC! What would happen to democracy in a caste system?

The human clone is bound to happen and not too far in the future. It would seem to me that this COULD be a real threat to democracy as it would demand a kind of control that COULD undermine method of reproduction.

Betty - I have identical twins, now 44 yrs old. The first born became insulin dependent diebetic at the age of 7, and the other at the age of 21. At the hospital where the 7 yr old was treated, they said that her twin sister had 100% chances of becoming a diabetic. They have taken different careers. One is a nurse, the other is an Admininstrive Assistant. What struck us the most is that they both chose the same type of husband. They are not particularly close perhaps because they live in different cities. I definitely do not consider twins to be 'clones' because it happened by natural process, not a man made process. A human being cannot be totally identical to another human being just because they look alike. There must be some kind of difference somewhere in an area that researchers have not been able to detect.

Robby - I received the video tape on A. de Tocqueville and looked at it today. Could you tell me who has requested it and I will send it along.

I am still reading the book. That man was a visionary, a philosopher and an excellent writer. He fell in love with with Democracy in America and wanted France have the benefits of a Democracy, but without giving up all the bonuses of aristocracy to which he still belonged. I learned from the video that both his parents were imprisoned during the French revolution and he was very much affected by their plight.

Here is an article I received today that speaks of advanced age.

I have read many books and articles in the last few years that we may live to be 120.

This article pops the balloon but does seem to be valid and certainly fits your present discussion.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/MGB7PM8OHJC.html

Eloise, identical twins do have identical genetic makeup because they came from the same source---the first cell, split in two. I know it's easy to give the word clone more weight than it's worth---it merely describes what is genetically identical, nothing more.

New technology includes medical devices, diagostic products, drugs and surgical procedures -- everything from digital mammography to laser surgery to artificial skin, from angioplasty to hip replacement to the radioactive "seeds" to treat prostate cancer. Health costs will grow faster than the government now assumes, partly because of adances in medical technology, and the long-term financial outlook for MEDICARE is therefore less rosy than officials assume.

The trustees of the MEDICARE program say that the hospital insurance trust fund, which pays hospital bills for MEDICARE beneficiaries, would be solvent until 2025. But under the new assumption recommended by the advisory panel, the trust fund would run out of money four years sooner, in 2021.

MEDICARE provides care to 39 million people who are elderly or disabled. Will your children and/or grandchildren be properly covered?

Robby

MEDICARE was created in 1965. The basic structure has changed little since. It remains a bastion of fee-for-service medicine, with the government acting as an old-style insurer, setting prices and reimbursing doctors and hospitals.

Only about 15 percent of MEDICARE beneficiaries are in H.M.O.'s but the working population has been overwhelmingly moved into H.M.O.'s and other forms of managed care, where there are more administrative controls on medical services.

An outside health expert says: "It is the classic division between the market people and the traditional MEDICARE people. The "market people" look toward a means of modernizing a creaky program, giving the elderly more choices in health plans and ultimtely saving the government money. The defenders of traditional MEDICARE argue that forcing this competition with H.M.O.'s and other private plans would enexorably weaken the traditional program.

Without naming names in the political world (there are some excellent political forums on Senior Net for such discussions) or concentrating on the political aspects, where do you personally fit into this "battle?" Are you using MEDICARE? Are you satisfied? If not, what changes would you like to see in this important program of medicine in America?

Robby

Quote from "Tonto's Revenge" by Rennard Strickland, chapter 3 regarding the American Indian. "The Indian health level is the lowest and the disease rate the highest of all major population groups in the United States. The incidence of tuberculosis is over 400 percent higher than the national average. Similar statistics show that the incidence of strep infections is 1,000 percent higher, meningitis is 2,000 percent higher, and dsyentery is 10,000 percent higher. Death rates from disease are shocking when Indian and non-Indian populations are compared. Influenza and pneumonia are 300 percent greater killers among Indians. Diseases such as hepititis are at epidemic proportions, with an 800 percent higher chance of death. Diabetes is almost a plague. And the suicide rate for Indian youths ranges from 1,000 to 10,000 times higher times than for non-Indian youths; Indian suicide has become epidemic".

I don't think that the original American Senior citizen worries so much over getting some obsure disease in from Africa but worries about coming down with the common cold and what it could imply while living out in some three-room shack on an Indian Reservation that is shared by three or four generations. I can't answer how Medicare fits into that picture.

Ellen:--Those are shocking statistics!! deTocqueville says (above): "The object is to secure the benefits which equality may supply." Are Public Health practices in America aiding the Indian population or not?

Robby

I don't really have any facts on that question Robby. I do know that American Indians suffer far more from common health problems than white, middle class America. The Black Americans in my family suffer from all of the contemporary Black American health problems, especially diabetes and cardiac. But they have received faster, better care than the Reservation Indian because they are urban and closer to professional care.

Rural Americans of all backgrounds suffer from lack of good health care but none so much as American Indians, especially elderly Indians.

I'm in the lower income bracket and rural. How does Medicare help us folks out here on the edge of the world? Well, with a bright young doctor from India, (who's quick action saved my life) and a very small "Ocean Beach" hospital, we probably do somewhat better than many elderly Americans. Its a long shot better than our grandparents had out here but that's not answering the question. I do know that we don't have the health insurance that the citizens of Germany have today as my daughter is a doctor in Germany. I am watching to see what answers come in on that question.

I do know from personal experience that what Rennard Strickland says about Native American health is all too true. I have seen it first hand, and not just in one area or reservation, but from the Kodiak Islands of Alaska to the reservations of Idaho, Washington and Montana.

Cathy, I think I should point out that clones are not predesigned. They are exact copies with identical genes. Nature makes them. You appear to be confusing the term with the articles about design babies being possible: i.e., picking out hair color, eye color, skin type, IQ, height, etc. Right now, this wish list can only be accomplished by those women who go to a sperm bank and leaf through their data banks on what is available. And, so far, they have to take the whole package as it comes and give birth quite naturally to the child of the male who donated the sperm. All clones are by natural birth as well. And clones are exact copies of other human beings, not designed at all.

It has been speculated that perhaps at some time in the far future there will be custom MADE children. These will not be clones, obviously, since they will not be genetic copies of living (or deceased) persons. These will be, if indeed they ever come into existence, the "different" ones.

ELLEN - I, too, have witnessed first-hand the dreadful lack of health care among the Native Americans when I lived in California, Oregon and Montana; visited in New Mexico, Colorado, Washington, and Minnesota. The medical practioners whom I knew personally in Oregon and Montana were dedicated men and women who chose to spend 2 years providing health care to Native American residents, but then returned to their home universities to complete their medical educations. I've always wondered if the State Govt. and the Fed. Govt. couldn't sponsor a Medical Corps program (like the Job Corps) for Native Americans who were interested in the medical fields. Support them through their educations with the cleaer understanding that their educations would be paid for totally if they agreed to return to their reservations or communities to provide health care or the residents. I have always strongly supported international education, but I also feel very strongly that the USA has not "looked to its own residents" in a truly comprehensive manner, particularly the Native American community.

The term "health" is far reaching and includes mental health. The World Health Organization (WHO) has predicted that mental and neurological disorders -- ranging from depression to Alzheimer's and epilepsy -- will strike 400 million people globally and are set to surge in the next two decades. By 2020, depression will jump to be the second greatest cause of death and disability worldwide, following ischemic heart disease.

Many people are taken by surprise that depression can cause death and/or disability. Any comments regarding this?

Robby

Depression depresses the functioning of the body in a healthy manner. It also can bring to mind fantasies of suicide.

One's whole outlook becomes unwholesome and dark and unhealthy.

Lynda (Hairy):--You bring up a most important point -- the mind-body relationship.

Robby

Mary Page - Your right I did post in ignorance. I sometimes post on too quick impulse, and usually am embarrassed.

Do you see danger in cloning as it would require governmental control in order to keep undersirables from cloning themeselves? Would that not be a problem? Would that be ego reproduction vs. what I call pot-luck reproduction?

Thanks for pointing out my error, Mary!

Medicareseems to make many of usuncomfortable in using it. I did feel that discomfort for awhile until I realized that the wealthy also used it. Then, on realizing that I could not help but wonder if the wealthy should use it. I know that if I were wealthy I would certainly feel guilty in using the governmental program.

I, until this last year, have always enjoyed good health and was not to informed about Medicare, but would have been almost wiped out financially had it not been in place.

I almost feel unpatriotic in presenting my Medicare card.

The medical needy are bringing many problems of our system to our attention, and I feel this is one of our biggest problems to solve as a nation. When does democracy become socialism? Is there not a modern society build on democracy/socialism blend?

Cathy says:--"I almost feel unpatriotic in presenting my Medicare card."

Without zooming in on her - she did say "almost" - do any of you have similar feelings? If not, why not?

Robby

In our particular instance we were "forced", if you will, onto Medicare. My husband's employer states quite clearly that at the age of 65 (or early retirement due to disability) the company insurance becomes secondary to Medicare. In other words Medicare is our Primary insurer through no choice of our own. In no way, do I feel guilty using Medicare. It beats going on welfare to pay horrendous medical costs. And I think in the long run is less costly to the Gov. than a large increase in Welfare rolls would be.

CATHY refers to a feeling of guilt in using Medicare. I wonder, Cathy, if you also feel guilt in voting, paying taxes, and doing other civic deeds. Medicare is a program that was brought about by the will of the people. Its time was long overdue. It has been a lifesaver for untold millions, and hopefully will continue to be. That is a very important aspect of democracy, which is the main topic here. How can one have such a democratic system, if the needs of all our citizens are not met?

True, there are instances of abuse, but think how awful it would be if these programs that benefit so many were not there. There aren't too many who remember the depression, but I am one of those "fortunate" few. There were no social programs, and people literally starved to death, or died from medical causes that could have been prevented with proper medical attention. We surely don't want to go back to those dreadful times.

We now have a banking system that prevents the danger of collapse, food inspection that usually works, and prevents spread of disease, and, thank God and Lyndon Johnson, Medicare, which is a blessing to so many, to name just a few. Count your blessings, and rejoice.

Bob C

Bob C says: "How can one have such a democratic system, if the needs of all our citizens are not met?"

deTocqueville says (quote above): "The object is to secure the benefits which equality may supply."

These statements made 170 years apart. A similarity?

Robby

I think sometimes people consider Medicare a charity, which it is not.

That leads to my questioning why people consider help from the government like welfare payments and food stamps, or even subsidized housing, things that should be hidden as if it was a sin to be in the predicament that causes such help to be necessary to survive.

A few years ago I supported my son and myself, paid for his medical bills before he received a disability allowance and a mortgage on the land and trailer I owned on an income not even close to $1000.00 a month and what little I could pick up with part-time jobs. Because of a brain injury caused by an automobile accident, my son is disabled and eligible for food stamps, Medicare and Medicaid. Also because of that injury, he was unable to go and pick the stamps up, so as his representative, I waited in line every month and got them for him. The people I saw were not rejoicing at their lot, but I'm aure they were as happy to receive this help as my son and I were. Medicare is paid for by tax money. So are food stamps and other kinds of help needy people require.

I'm not sure many here are aware that there are facilities like the Office of Vocational Rehabilitation which pays for job training and certain very expensive pieces of equipment like braces and wheelchairs, medical help, psychological counselling if necessary, and other assistance so the poor can be trained and find jobs, thus working their way out of poverty. I find nothing embarrassing or shameful about taking advantage of help that is offered by federal and state governments. Without this help, as Roberto said, people would starve and die.

Mal

Mal says: "I find nothing embarrassing or shameful about taking advantage of help that is offered by federal and state governments."

We are a Democracy, right? We are the government, right? Then, if I understand Democracy correctly, this help is offered from us to us (we, the people). The folks in the federal and state capitals are not the "government," they are the government's "representatives." We tend to say, in common usage, that the government is in Washington. The government is not there. It is spread across 3,000 miles of land.

Robby

I find it significant that many of us can find no fault with popular ways of justice waiting. We are no more than our belief in justice. We are right, I belive, in insisting that we have paid our dues.

WHEN, WHEN, do we learn that we have paid our dues?????

Robby has it exactly right, and so does Mal.

The government is made up of people we, THE PEOPLE, have elected to office. We can change them any time we don't like what they are doing.

And we, the people, want to help those of us, our very own neighbors, who have fallen on difficult times. It could just as well be us.

For some reason, going back to times when the poor were thought to be the least of God's creatures and guilty of their own place in life (yes, we thought this. we thought it big time. read your histories!), those who have never known Want or Poverty or incapacitating illness have looked down their noses at the afflicted as if they were vermin. One of the smarmier sides to human nature. And just one of the many that make no sense at all.

ROBBY - As a long-time resident of the metropolitan Washingtonn DC area and a former affiliate of several Fed.Govt. agencies, I am often amazed at people throughout the USA who think of Washington as "the government," rather than the location where their elected representatives conduct the people's business. Your comment about the government being spread across the country reminded me of the day the Oklahoma bombing took place. I was at USDA at the time and within an hour of the bombing our phones started ringing off the hook. People from throughout Oklahoma and border states called to ask "the government" what they could do to help. Several people told me "we knew that you could direct us where our help might best be needed." After several calls like that, I began directing those people to the local Red Cross, their local government offices and the emergency response offices in the Oklahoma Governor's Office. At the end of a very long day - and those calls continued for several days - I wondered why on earth people would call Washington DC to ask about offering help right in their own area.

On January 1st of this year, the federal government began to offer its nine million federal governmental employees improved mental health benefits equal to those for physical ailments. This is a significant victory for mental health advocates, who have argued for more than a decade that the widespread practice of providing far less coverage for mental disorders is discriminatory.

The new policy also offers further evidence that the notion of equality in coverage is gaining wider acceptance. Thirty-two states now have laws that in some way address such insurance disparities, and many large corporations provide equal coverage for their employees, believing that doing so saves money in the long run.

Do you believe that we are entering an era when people, in general, will look upon mental health differently from the ancient approach of "insane asylums" and "crazyness?"

Robby

Cathy, not too many years ago, I must have lumped together Medicare and Medicaid, not realizing that the first is for people of retirement age (and those "retired" by disability) and the second is for those of any age who have low incomes. In fact, when the company I worked for required me to apply for Social Security Disability (which would include Medicare) at the same time I applied for approval under a company long-term disability policy (I'd been paying premiums on), I was really embarrassed that I had to go downtown to the big Social Security office and fill out all those forms and be interviewed.

I felt even more than "unpatriotic." I felt ashamed and did not want to be seen going in---I didn't think I SHOULD qualify, and didn't WANT to qualify. I didn't want to sink that low, didn't want to be known as receiving social security disability OR Medicare.

I've told this story on myself many times. I parked around the block, just in case someone who knew me saw me. Then I found a back way into the building. I followed signs to the Social Security office, which led right up to a set of closed double doors. The door on the right had the vertical, curved handle with the thumb-press knob on top. Since my hands are weak, I used my whole left hand to push down the thumb-press, while pulling the door back with my right hand. The door was really heavy and I barely had it open before it slamed shut. I don't remember how many times I attempted to open that door, but it was several times.

At my last and successful attempt (sweating now and breathing hard), I had put my briefcase on the floor, put my shoulder bag around my neck and swung it to hang down my back, and turned around backwards quickly the minute the door was open to step one step backwards through the door with my leg and, uh, bottom---so that I was sort of wedged in the opening while I picked up my briefcase before stepping on through to the other side. I was sweating and shaking from the effort, but the minute the door slammed shut behind me, the whole thing struck me as funny and my embarrassment was gone. I was imagining a candid camera somewhere----thinking, if you got through the heavy doors with no trouble, you'd be rejected for Social Security Disability----if you had a difficult time, you were automatically approved. And, of course, I knew it made sense to apply. I already guessed that I'd easily qualify, and should.

I'm sure Marypage is right. (Uh, do I remember right, that you like Marypage, not just Mary? I can never remember.) I'm sure you're right, that this (fading) stigma associated with cues of need come from our history of placing different values on people of different economic levels.

Nothing bothers me anymore. I've been through a gazillion potentially embarrassing situations and don't even bat an eye when I hear others confuse Medicaid with Medicare. Who cares. As lousy as the Medicare coverage is, I'm glad to have it. And thank my lucky stars for Social Security Disability and the long-term disability policy benefits. Don't know where I'd be without them.

Todays right wing business philosophies and the reluctance of wealthier people to pay higher tax to give something back to society has returned our civilisation back to the attitude that to be poor or sick is shameful! When we paid higher tax rates here in NZ we truly had Godzone Country. We paid nil for education or healthcare! We were truly blessed in the basics of life. I never begrudged my 47cents in the dollar. Now the average person pays about 30c in the dollar and we pay through the nose for everything except emergency hospital treatment that is lifesaving treatment.

Speaking to young people today they really begrudge taxes although they pay less than ever we did. Most of them earn far more than we did but want it all for ME! This is picking up on the snide remarks made by many politicians who truly make people feel it is a sin to be poor or unable to work through illness. I have no sympathy for young women who go ahead and have more than one child out of wedlock and expect the country to support them. We can all forgive one mistake it would be inhumane not to do so but there are cases where women have up to five children to different fathers and have never earned a dollar since leaving school. I can remember leaving for work while one young woman who lived nearby lay in bed. I worked full time having four children two of whom we fostered and later adopted and we never claimed a cent from the state for the fostering period, we worked to support all four children all of whom have never been out of work. I think we have to draw the line somewhere but the low income families need a hand up as do the sick and disabled. They should not feel ashamed and we should not make them ashamed.

As for mental illness, most peoples attitudes have not changed and the public in general think that a person who has committed say murder while in Psychosis should be put to death. This is missing the point that the patient may do something truly seeing and believing that the person they killed was an enemy soldier or someone who was coming to kill them.

Statistics however show that more murders are committed by those per head of population who are legally sane than by people who have a documented history of mental illness.

I have seen our police shoot to the death a person who was in a Psychotic episode and not even have a Psychiatrist called in to try and speak to the person. This has happened a number of times in the last five years and I have wept as I watched it all happening on TV.

If the authorities have no understanding of mental illness or systems in place to deal with the incidents above how can we expect the average person in the street to understand mental illness .

No I do not think any thing will change. It is fashionable to have depression but it is not acceptable to have bi polar affective disorder or to have Schizophrenia. People with these afflictions lead lonely and often unsupported lives.

Hope I have not gone on too long but the above topics are very dear to my heart.

Carolyn

Some 400 million people today suffer from mental and neurological disorders worldwide. Depression, often genetic, hits roughly twice as many women as men, according to WHO experts. The Americas and Western Pacific regions have the most victims of depression, with the lowest rates in Africa.

Surveys in Brazil, Zimbabwe, India and Chile show the more impoverishment -- measured by hunger, level of debt and education -- the higher the prevalence of common mental disorders.

Robby

CAROLYN, I think you maybe a little hard on the police whom you refer to in your above post.I do not think they shoot, until there is just no alternative. As you know, in NZ,the first police to arrive at a disturbance are usually unarmed, ( the armed offenders squad comes later, usually), and several policemen have lost their lives in trying to physically apprehend these often mentally ill persons. In the dreadful emergency of the moment, an armed offenders squad member must be the sole judge when it is necessary to shoot, don't you think? I remember that instance in downtown Auckland, captured on tv, when the offender shot the police dog, but the police still overpowered him without firing.

Sorry ROBBY, I've sort of wandered of the subject!!-- Trevor

“On January 1st of this year, the federal government began to offer its nine million federal governmental employees improved mental health benefits equal to those for physical ailments. ----Robert B. Iadeluca

Is there some one out there who can explain to me why federal employees, who are already recipients of what has been described previously in these posts as “the gold plan”, are treated as the aristocracy of this democracy when it comes to receiving medical benefits not available to all citizens?

“How can one have such a democratic system, if the needs of all our citizens are not met?” ---Bob C.

Well, if the needs of all of our citizens are not being met, or even coming close, perhaps we don’t have a democracy after all!

“The object is to secure the benefits which equality may supply.”----deTocqueville

THAT’S the word I was looking for....”EQUALITY”!!

“When does democracy become socialism?”----Cathy Foss

Right On Cathy! My answer would be: “Only when the many fully recognize that because of their numbers that the many really have the power of one!

Democracy is not a holy word or concept. It was created by a societal population that has changed so radically that our purely democratic system of government has no choice but to change with it. More and more I am coming to believe that what passes for democracy in this nation today needs to be modified. Not because the principles as established by the founding fathers of this nation were faulted, but because we have evolved into a society whose objectives are biased towards human greed and an insatiable lust for profit. New checks and balances and a reappraisal of our priorities are sorely needed. There is no question in my mind that eventually they will become accepted reality.

Eventually, and I hope sooner rather than later, we will emerge from our cocoon to the full realization of who, what, and how powerful we really are. At that point in our development we will undoubtedly become the democracy/socialism blend that you refer to.

People Rule!

Mike Cantor

ROBBY, I was reading today Will Durant's " Our Oriental Heritage ". In it I found a quote from the Laws of Hammurabi ( 2123-2081 BC.) It says:- I, Hammurabi, worshiper of the gods, was called to cause justice to prevail in the land, destroy the wicked and the evil, to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak... To enlighten the land, and to further the welfare of the people..

The aims expressed are still striven for today. They have a very 'modern ' ring to them. Are our political endeavours any closer to achievement today, than they were 4000 years ago?-- Trevor.

Comment by deTocqueville quoted above:--"It is not the singular prosperity of the few but the greater well-being of all, which is most pleasing in the sight of the Creator."

Comment by Mike Cantor:--"More and more I am coming to believe that what passes for democracy in this nation today needs to be modified."

Comment by Trevor:--"Are our political endeavours any closer to achievement today, than they were 4000 years ago?"

Are we evolving toward true Democracy or are we not?

Robby

Mike says, "More and more I am coming to believe that what passes for democracy in this nation today needs to be modified. Not because the principles as established by the founding fathers of this nation were faulted, but because we have evolved into a society whose objectives are biased towards human greed and an insatiable lust for profit."

That strikes a chord.

Linda

Mike Cantor - I agree with you wholeheartedly on your insistance that democracy has not been, nor is practiced anywhere in its true meaning. We certainly practice capitalism and practice it very well. I truly wonder if the two can ever exist without capitalism dominating the concept.

70 percent of those suffering from major depression can fully recover if properly treated. We can expect a decrease in suicides if we are properly treating depressed people. At preseent, depression is the fifth leading cause of death and disability, while ischemic heart disease trails in sixth place, according to the Geneva-based WHO. The table is currently topped by acute lower respiratory infections but infectious diseases are generally expected to fall.

Mental and neurological disorders represent 11% of the "global burden of disease," a figure based on mortality and disability. The figure is expected to represent 14% in 2020.

Different diseases are prominent in different regions, with one exception. Schizophrenia is ubiquitous -- you will find the same rate of schizophrenia in Los Angeles and central Africa, probably because there is a very strong genetic component. Schizophrenia, a chronic disorder, affects 45 million people worldwide, with about half of the victims achieving full "social recovery."

As we examine Public Health in this forum, what is your attitude toward mental disease?

Robby

My attitude is that I wish the public would become more aware that everything about the human being springs from the brain and from the health and condition of that brain.

I wish High School Biology courses had more time for this subject. I wish they could show the kids pictures of healthy brains next to pictures of all different types of sick ones. Most of all, I wish they could show them, step by step, what happens with addiction and why there is so very much relapse.

And, if I could play God, I would gather up all the holier-than-thou types who preach so much about motivation and self-reliance, etc., and make them study the brains and see all of the pictures.

According to Surgeon General David Satcher, one in 10 American children suffers from some sort of mental problem, but only 20 percent are being treated for it. "We are talking about depression which is probably the most common," he said, "but also attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder."

In a report which he signed, he called for an overhaul of children's menal health progrms, including training teachers and doctors to recognize problems and doing more research.

His concern was that children in many cases are dumped into the juvenile justice system, with others ending up in special education classes or on welfare.

Anybody here who has knowledge of similar situations or any general comments?

Robby

There is a really simplistic explanation as to why Governmental employees receive certain benefits that are not available to the general population. When one becomes a Federal, or for that matter, a State or local government employee, there are fringe benefits that go with that employment. These do include health benefits that are not available to the general population. That is the reason why people who are qualified to the point that their services are needed in said employment received such benefits. Civil Service is available to all. One takes a test, and those who are most qualified get the job. Anyone who has what it takes can become such an employee. Just compete, as others do. That does not, however, apply to the politicians, who also get the benefits of these services, but in a way they too compete, running for and getting elected. They are also a very miniscule portion of this group.

One doesn't object to military personnel getting benefits that the general public cannot avail itself of. One doesn't object to Postal employees getting fringe benefits that are not availabe to the general public. One shouldn't object to Civil Service employees getting fringe benefits that are not available to others. They've worked for and earned them.

In private employment there are stock options, bonuses, health plans, retirement benefits and more. Should those same benefits be given to the general population? If Civil Service employees receive additional benefits, that too is an additional incentive to become such an employee. Let's be fair here.

I would indeed hope that sooner rather than later complete medical benefits are available to all, but that's going to take a sea change in the attitude of the haves vs. the have-nots. I've said before that when the self-disenfranchised voters of this country wake up and use their power, there is no end to what can be achieved. Until that momentous day, it's going to come very slowly in dribs and drabs, as usual.

Bob C

Too few people with mental health problems seek treatment. One reason for this, I believe, is because we still tend to think of the body as divided---mental and physical. Even when you tell someone that schizophrenia is a brain disorder (hold up the picture of the sliced brain, Marypage) or that there is often a strong component of chemical (neurotransmitter) dysfunction in depression, people still don't see how singular the body is.

"Treating depression with anti-depressant medication is no different from treating diabetes with insulin," I have said a thousand or so times. Also, "Would you hesitate to have a broken arm set?...Then why would you hesitate to treat any other part of your body?" Cultural images/beliefs are difficult to alter, though.

Historic fear, myths and misinformation still affect how our society views mental health. It wasn't that long ago that people with mental disorders were seen as evil and were effectively imprisoned in warehouse-like institutions. Insane asylum...just think of the image. I think a little of that image is still part of today's "mental" health.

Another piece, maybe a stereotype, of why people don't seek treatment is the associated image of weakness---that someone is weak if he admits he needs counseling or other treatment for depression. In practice as a psychologist, I ran into this all the time. Finally, I made it a habit to bring it up myself some time during the first session---acknowledging evidence of "strength" shown in scheduling a first appointment. "Strong people reach out for help when they need it," became a mantra. Ah, and all the apologies for "not handling" something. "But you are handling it," I would say..."You're hurting; you're here." Then there is the speed with which depression or pain should end....all the messages given to someone grieving that time has come for the grief to be finished. The implied message is hurry up and get back to normal---as if hurting isn't normal.

Personally, I feel we've just scratched the surface in thinking of the body as a whole....mental and physical not separate. (Loss of sleep can come from a broken foot or depression. A broken marriage can cause loss of sleep, backache, situational depression. Depression can make a backache worse, even if the root cause is a herniated disk. People who are depressed have more car accidents. Stomach upset and headaches may have nothing to do with stress or everything to do with stress. Learning something new is more difficult when one is depressed. Learning something new may fit well into an overall plan to alleviate situational depression.)

Pardon me for going on and on. One of my pet peeves is that many people don't receive treatment for this major illness, depression, when it has one of the best cure rates of all the major illnesses---compared to serious heart disease, cancer, etc. If all physicians were better trained in spotting mental disorders, that would be half the battle, I think. I wonder how many physicians know that irritability is a major symptom of depression---not everyone is slowed down ("blue," low mood, sleeps a lot); many depressed people are speeded up---restless, irritable, sleeps less. Just think how many people with headaches, stomach disorders, sleep disorders, eating disorders---are depressed and the family physician doesn't catch it.

“ I can go to specialists of my choice, get medicines which can run from very little to almost mind-boggling amounts, at a cost of $12 or $20 for a three months supply. As an example, a new medication is now available for rheumatoid arthritis, which costs approximately $14,000 per year for two injections a week. As a victim of this disease, I am able to procure this treatment, and it has enabled me to function at a near normal level. THIS IS A MEDICATION THAT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO THE VAST MAJORITY OF AMERICANS. WHY? WELL, THE ANSWER IS OBVIOUS. OUR COUNTRY IS IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO AT ONE TIME WERE REFERRED TO AS "ROBBER BARONS", AND I SEE NO END IN SIGHT TO THEIR POWER. THESE THIEVES HAVE THEIR HANDS IN OUR POCKETS, AND NOTHING HAS BEEN OR WILL BE DONE ABOUT IT.” ------- Roberto- 12:10pm Feb 4, 2001 PST (#150of 519)

“ONE SHOULDN'T OBJECT TO CIVIL SERVICE EMPLOYEES GETTING FRINGE BENEFITS THAT ARE NOT AVAILABLE TO OTHERS. THEY'VE WORKED FOR AND EARNED THEM. ------ Roberto- 01:33pm Feb 26, 2001 PST (#519of 519)

Roberto, those of us who suffer from rheumatoid arthritis, and who can never receive the new medications as you are, allowing them to function at a near normal level, will find little consolation in the “obvious” fact that the “robber barons” have their hands in our pockets, unless, by God’s grace, you happen to be a federal employee.

The fact that the federal government is also offering improved mental health benefits exclusively to federal government employees who have “worked for and earned them” must give some pause to those who are denied those benefits. Nothing could provide a clearer demonstration that their mental well being and that of their desperately ill loved ones, is not as important to this government, as that of those who are employed in civil service.

Yes Roberto, I agree....let’s be fair here!

People Rule!

Mike Cantor

Betty:--A wonderful detailed posting on mental illness and the population's reaction to it across the land. I will not comment on it as it speaks for itself. What reactions do you others have as you see the devastation that mental illness causes and the fact that it is often left untreated?

Mike and Roberto continue their discourse on the topic of fairness in the selling of medications, using federal employees as an example. Do either of you (or others here) see the place of the pharaceutical corporations in this battle for medications available to all? And could the federal government be considered an "employer" which is giving the same benefit to its employees that other employers could also give teir employees if they so desired?

Robby

MIKE CANTOR, that the opportunity for Government employment has always been available to everybody. All one has to do is qualify, and if you are in the top range, the job is yours. When I passed my court reporting test, I was one out of 100 who did. That is a skill that I was fortunate in having, and it led eventually to Federal employment. When they had a test to become House floor reporter, I came out Number 1, though I turned the job offer down, as I preferred to work in Committees. I made more money in private industry before my Federal employment, and turned to that employment only when I decided that the fringe benefits offered were more important to me than the larger amount of money in private employment. To me it was common sense that in the long run I would be better off than making more money but not having those essential fringe benefits. Right now, according to an article in yesterday's paper, private industry on average has salaries that are 32 per cent higher than Government employees receive. My son works for Government, and could make a seven-figure salary -- yes, that's right, I said seven-figure -- but prefers Government work, with its fringe benefits. That is more important to him than a large salary, and killing himself trying to get rich.

There are many others in the same category, as I said before. Your military is a prime example. Right now it is an all-volunteer service, and for whatever reason, there are usually sufficient recruits. You have teachers, thank God, who hold the future of our country, through the children they teach, in their hands. They get these fringe benefits, and most deservedly so.

This is a nation of special interest groups, each pulling in its own direction. That is how our system works. As I have said again and again, when the majority of this country gets its act together, the many benefits that people such as myself have rightfully earned hopefully will be spread more widely, and perhaps sooner than later become available to all.

Bob C

"The Gold Plan"

Roberto, I read with great interest your post #519 that states “government employees receive certain fringe benefits that are not available to the general population” I was a federal employee/manager for forty-years, (now retired) and I would like to clarify your use of the word “fringe.” In your first paragraph you refered mainly to the health benefits that are offered to federal employees and retirees. The fore-mentioned can avail themselves of these health benefits if the federal worker or retiree elects to payfor these health benefit insurance polices. I must quickly add that the federal government also contributes money for the health insurance policy and I agree the FEHBPs (Federal Employees Health Benefit Plans) are outstanding health plans.

The health benefits for government employees were created in 1959 by an act of congress, but they were rather basic health plans that only entailed small amounts of payroll deductions. This has all changed. Today there are negotiated agreements between the federal employee’s, supervisor’s and manager’s respective unions, government department/agencies and bureau representatives and the various insurance carrier’s participating in FEP, who all meet annually and hammer out the best possible benefits within each carrier’s plan for certain amounts of money from the enrollee and the government.

These many plans vary in the benefits they provide based on the amount of premium the enrollee is willing to pay. Needless to say, the lower the premium the less the benefits. (there are even some HMOs in FEP and they offer low monthly premiums, but they are HMOs and I avoid them like I would the plague). Higher monthly premiums get the enrollee better benefits. There are members enrolled in high option self and family paying over three-hundred dollars monthly premiums. Although Uncle Sam contributes, this “fringe” benefit is not handed out good heartedly by Uncle Sam free from cost to the enrollee.

Roberto, I’m certain you didn’t mean to imply that these are free health polices. No, unlike the free health benefit polices that some unions in the private sector negotiated for their employees, we contribute to the cost of ours, and rightly so.

When I retired, I was still eligible to participate in FEHBP as long as I paid my monthly premium. Needless to say this premium increases every year and has reached the point that the premiums are now considerably more than my Medicare premiums, even though my carrier, as well as other FEHBPs, is secondary to the Medicare enrollee.

FEPs are quintessential health plans, however there are over 9-million members and their families enrolled in it’s various plans. This makes it a huge group health plan, and that is what makes it affordable for it’s enrollees. The government doesn’t disallow the private sector from forming this kind of health insurance plans. It’s the fact that the private sector can’t muster the great number of enrollees needed for this kind of insurance plan benefits. Although, some of the private sector health insurance plans offered to their employees are quite good.

Bill H

Mike and Roberto

You both explained that you receve a recently approved injection for Arthritis. Are these injections Medicare approved? I have Arthritis but my FEP carrier won’t pay for any thing that’s not Medicre approved.

Bill H

Bill H. is correct.

And so is Roberto.

Most federal, state, county and city employees have qualifications that could enable them to land more lucrative positions in private industry. Admittedly, some do not. But most do.

Many of these opt for the public sector for the benefit package. This is the carrot the Congress, the Legislatures, the Boards of Supervisors and City Councils have had to dangle from the stick in order to attract qualified workers. Without it, our society would be without agencies to supervise the building and maintenance of our infrastructure, services to fight our wars and protect our peace, groups to guard our borders and identify our citizenry, offices to schedule our trading with other countries and states, officers to represent us with other countries, departments to guard our health against the threat of tainted water, plague and pestilence, and so on and on. It is a huge worry and endeavor just to keep all of these departments, which provide necessities we take so for granted, manned and running.

Many have a sincere calling to work for the welfare of their fellow citizens rather than a for-profit organization. It may sound absurd to some, but there really are altruists in this world, and they truly are driven by these sentiments.

Federal workers choose from a large number of health plans. They pay for what they get, with the government paying the larger portion. They are allowed to take this benefit into their retirement, but they continue to pay for it.

They also choose from several retirement packages. Again, they must work the number of years required and must have additional funds taken out of their pay for the higher packages.

Federal employees also have life and disability insurance plans. The government pays for the very smallest, simplest one, but employees may choose to have money deducted from their paychecks for larger insurance benefits.

Finally, upon retirement an employee may choose to take a lower benefit in order to provide a pension to his or her survivor upon his death. Again, there is a choice of several percentages of less pension they may elect.

Federal employees do pay a lot towards their benefits. The citizens of the United States are the ultimate beneficiaries.

Roberto, you are completely missing the point that I was trying to make. The issue that I raised has nothing to do with the willingness or the ability of individuals to participate in government employment. My concern addressed itself as to why a medication available to federal employees should, in your own words be “a medication that is not available to the vast majority of Americans”.

That part of your response that I find particularly significant is two fold: First you mention that the obvious answer is that our country is in the hands of “robber barons” who have their hands in our pockets and that nothing has or will be done about it. The second response is that “one shouldn’t object to civil service employees getting fringe benefits that are not available to others; they’ve worked for and earned them.”

I find your reference to “robber barons” non-responsive to the question that I asked. The second part of your response addressed itself to “fringe benefits that are not available to others”. Fringe benefits, in general, as received by federal employees are neither a concern of mine. What I do find particularly offensive is the federal government’s exclusive offer to federal employees of “improved mental health benefits equal to those for physical ailments”, a benefit denied to the citizen population at large under any program that I am aware of. If it is your position that these mental health benefits are, “fringe” in nature and, as such, are an entitlement of those in civil service, so be it! You are certainly entitled to have that opinion! However, I find that to be gratuitous and objectionable in particular consideration of the public mental health problems currently prevalent in publicly administered areas.

Perhaps if you had the responsibility to explain to the desperate parents and loving families of those mentally ill that they could not receive the treatment and patient care they need because they are not federal employees, you might feel differently about the issue.

I guess that my problem is that when my brother bleeds, I bleed as well.

People Rule!

Mike Cantor

If anyone in this forum where we are discussing the physical and mental well-being of citizens of a Democracy doubts how close this topic is to the emotions of each of us, the previous postings have probably erased these doubts.

Consumers across the nation faced double-digit increase in their health care costs starting this past January, reflecting the biggest surge in medical inflation since the early 1990's. The increases showed up in large deductions from paychecks and higher deductibles and payments for care, especially prescription drugs. Employers learned earlier last year that their health care premiums would be increasing between 10 and 30 percent this year. Most companies across the country are absorbing the majority of the hefty increases, hoping to retain important employees in a tight labor market, but they are sharing the burden with workers. And at some companies, employees are paying a growing xhare of the costs.

Costs are increasing for government employees as well. In the Federal Employees' Health Plan, the nation's largest, monthly payroll deductions rose 14 percent to $74.23 in January for most single employees, and increased 21 percent to $175.30 for families, according to a spokesman for Blue Cross and Blue Shield, which covers about half of the eight million federal workers and retirees. The annual deductible and employee payments for hospital and outpatient care also rose.

May I add that I appreciate the civil manner in which each of you is addressing this highly volatile topic without attacking personalities.

Robby

Robby in your last post and I quote “Costs are increasing for government employees as well. In the Federal Employees' Health Plan, the nation's largest, monthly payroll deductions rose 14 percent to $74.23 in January for most single employees, and increased 21 percent to $175.30 for families"

Robby the monthly premiums that were given to you are for the FEP Blue Cross/Shield’s Standard Option Benefits. However, for FEP Blue Cross/Shield’s high option benefits the monthly premiums are: For self only $151.97. For self and family $301.86, according to the brochure that OPM sent me. I personally feel the Blues are the best of the FEP plans.

N.A.R.F.E.--the monthly magazine for retired federal workers--states: that for retired federal employees enrolled in Medicare A&B the BC/S standard option is enough. I agree. But for those who are not covered by, Medicare A&B, I don’t think the standard option of any of the FEPs is sufficient enough to meet todays high medical costs for employees with family. I say this based on the descriptive brochures I receive, read and study, from OPM and the various plans. I’m certain that, if I was not enrolled in Medicare and still had dependent family, I would not gamble on any of the standard options.

Bill H

The Mental Institutions of days gone by weren't the greatest places on earth, that's for sure, but I think having our mentally ill wander the streets and have no homes is worse. Are we so heartless as a government to turn our backs on so many, many people?

The more greed on Wall Street the more need on back streets.

Linda

The notion of equal coverage of mental and physical ailments -- referred to as "parity," -- was endorsed by both sides during the campaign. Yet, according to the director of state affairs for the National Mental Health Association, a nonprofit group, despite various advances, true equal coverage, in its fullest sense, remains elusive. She said that many state laws include so many restrictions that they have little impact, and that in some cases, insurance companies have simply found other, more subtle ways to limit coverage for mental illness.

In offering equal coverage, federal officials hope to provide a model for employers around the country. The initiative is likely to be monitored closely by Congress, which will probably take up the parity issue in its current session.

Under guidelines developed by the federal Office of Personnel Management, private health plans for federal employees will no longer impose higher co-payments or deductibles for mental health services, or set limits on outpatient visits or hospital days for mental disorders that are lower than those applied to general medical or surgical care. Treatment for alcohol and other drug abuse will also be covered equally under the new policy.

Robby

About half of America's homeless suffer from a major illness or health problem and one in four fail to get needed medical care. A study pulished in the American Medical Association tells us that homeless people suffer from physical and mental illness at nigher rates than people in the mainstream, and one in three reported being unable to get drug prescriptions filled. The research was based on interviews at shelters, food pantries and transitional housing program.s

The homeless are more likely to go to hospital emergency rooms for medical care and are four times more likely to require a hospital stay -- a reflection of the increased cost of delaying tratment. According to the author of the study, a professor at the University of California, San Francisco, "The homeless people are really a very vulnerable part of our population who sufer terrible burdens of illness and early death."

Any relation between this and deTocqueville's remark above beginning with "The object is to secure...?"

Robby

Maybe it's that living out the dream is more difficult than those who dreamed it thought it would be----or that we are doing a lousy job maintaining the dream's standards of equality, the same equality that de Toqueville thought would supply the benefits.

That idea does fit the thinking of some today who say that we end up paying more (financially, socially?) for not attending to preventive care and early illness. (And maybe goals of rehab in prisons.)

Almost half of the homeless surveyed reported at least one major illness or health problem and almost three-quarters suffered from either a mental health problem or abused alcohol or drugs or both.

An estimated one out of every hundred Americans have an episode of homelessness during the course of a year, often brought about by poverty, mental illness, substance abuse or other factors. The majority of the homeless surveyed did not have medical insurance, although those who did had better access to care. Many homeless military veterans did not take advantage of their insurance benefits.

Betty speaks of preventive care. Any ideas how we can go about trying to prevent the situations outlined here?

Robby

BILL H, if you are covered by Medicare, and have BC/BS standard coverage, that is sufficient to enable you to receive the drug Enbrel, with approval of your doctor. I don't know what health plan you have, but it is well worth it to belong to this plan, if you are in need of drug coverage. I see no need for the high option BC/BS coverage, as the difference in premiums is hardly worth the small extra benefits. There is a charge of $20 for a 90-day supply of non-generic drugs, and $12 for generic.

MIKE CANTOR, I have never said that mental health benefits should not be made available to other than Governmental employees and retirees. I am all for a "gold plan" health care program for all. I have said that Government employees and retirees do indeed get such benefits, and that they have earned them. NO ONE should be resentful of that. One does not obtain benefits by whistling. It takes hard work and political clout. I am getting a little frustrated, but I must repeat my constant refrain. When enough of the self-disenfranchised voters of this country awake and realize the power they have at the ballot box, then there will be a sea change in health care and other benefits that should be a birthright. Until then, these things will come in dribs and drabs, and very, very SLOWLY. Denigrating one group does not help others, but only pulls everybody down.

Bob C

Bob C

Roberto, you say: "I am getting a little frustrated, but I must repeat my constant refrain." Please don't get frustrated. I'm sure as you look back over your lifeime at face-to-face conversations you have had in living room conversations, you have found (as have I and others) that our point of view may not fit in with what others believe or accept.

And that is OK. That's why this is called a Discussion Group.

Robby

Hi every one maybe this will help or muddy the discussion waters more I do not know. Many things are different in overcrowded Japan about the mental health problems you are mentioning. For one thing, the well being of the individual is thought to be the responsibility of the extended family. When my cousin in lawÕs wife died of cancer, his mother came and lived with them to take care of the small children the dead wife left behind when she died until they, the remaining family, could work out a more permanent arrangement. By family I mean all the aunts and uncles and the grown children.

In front of where I live are people camped on the banks of the river in seven makeshift housing things (units, shelter, shacks, all convey the wrong idea) and sleeping under the bridge across the river. Are they homeless, or are the homeless the thousands that are thrown out of work by mergers, downsizing, bankruptcies that can not pay for where they are living and are forced to go elsewhere? Are they any different from the drunks who sleep in the train stations after the trains stop running at night, because Japan does not have the shelter system of the US.

Is the system of expecting the family to care for the mentally ill, not the violent ones, with technical and the meager financial assistance from the government to the caretakers a better way to go? It certainly means less government assistance/interference in the lives of the people.

Now, I recognize that US nuclear family is far smaller than the Japanese extended family, but is either right or just different? Is the difference a matter of religion, education, tradition, what?

Jere In Japan

Bob C., don't you have that backwards? I have a real need to know here. Is it not the Generic drugs that have an extra $20 charge and the NON-Generic have only $12?

I have exactly that plan, i.e., Medicare plus the FEP Blue Cross/Blue Shield Standard Plan, and I have been told I can save by opting for the non-generic. Hey, I'll go for the generic in a Heart Beat if I can save money! Please advise soonest.

Hi, Jere! Welcome back! And "muddying the discussion waters" is great. If everyone agrees with everyone, where is the discussion?

As Jere examines the culture of Japan (which we must remind ourselves is a Democracy), and compares it with the culture in America, he calls two things to our attention:--

1 - Where is the role of the extended family in America, especially as related to the health of individuals within the family.
2 - When using the term "homeless," what is the difference between those who were thrown out of work and live in makeshift shelters and drunks who sleep in the train stations and the non-violent mentally ill?

If Gertrude Stein were here, would she say:--"The homeless are the homeless are the homeless?"

Robby

Sorry, Bob C (Roberto), but your posts on what the government employees have "earned" did sound elitist. I had worked on a post for a while (that I deleted instead of posted) asking you why you thought a civil service garbage truck driver (on a military base) was more deserving of good health coverage than (1) an underpaid emergency room nurse, (2) a manager of an after hours homeless shelter or (3) anyone else who works hard at her job.

From your most recent post, I gather you think that the absence of good coverage is the fault of those who don't have the coverage. You would ask those people to do what the government employees did not have to do---so there is still a tone of the government employees being more deserving.

I don't remember anyone writing that the government employees do not deserve the coverage they have---only that everyone else is just as deserving.

Your argument that everyone has the same opportunity to take the civil service tests and work for the government---well, not really. Sure, all the millions could line up to take the tests, but there are not enough openings to employ even a fraction of the total.

I'm stumpted as to why anyone would begrudge all U.S. citizens good health coverage....or blame them for not fighting hard enough for it, that it is their own fault that they don't have it. How puzzling.

Note...Both my parents worked in Civil Service until retirement and I worked three summers in Civil Service between college semesters.

As we continue to float down this mainstream of time and look out over the American landscape, I am interested in what you all see in terms of mental health treatment in this nation and how you compare it with deTocqueville's observations taken 170 years ago.

Robby

No one can predict when public attitudes will change, as history shows it takes a very long time. Not only that, but sometimes an era of enlightenment sinks into another dark age in some areas and regarding some subjects.

That being said, I do think public education, through the media principally, but also through biology textbooks and perhaps even popular literature, will eventually bring future generations to understand that mental health is a physical thing to be treated in hospitals and with medication and surgery, just as any other illness.

I am referring to medical coverage that civil servants and/or military receives. I am 60 now and have been under this system since I was 18. It is Terrible!!! Never see the same doctor twice, wait forever for appointments. I could go on and on but I won't. Maybe you are talking the top ranks but down on the bottom or the middle of the barrel, it is still rotten apples!!!

Martex, you must be speaking only of military health coverage. I have been under the Federal Employee Plan for over 20 years, and can choose to go to any doctor I want. I have been seeing my own personal physician whenever I want. I have the Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Perhaps if you are not military, you chose to go with an HMO. There is no choice of what physician you see with HMOs. I have deliberately not chosen to go with an HMO because I want to retain my right to see the physician of MY CHOICE!

I wasn't aware of any difference for civil servants. My husband was a civil servant for over 10 years after retiring from the Air Force, but he still was under the same coverage.

I worked for many years for a city government that gave their employees bluecross and was great. However, there were two of us that were military dependents and they wouldn't let us have the insurance. If I worked there today, I would protest. I think that may have been illegal to keep us from being covered. They sure didn't give us more money to make up for it.

Another comment on something else. About the "people" being the government. That may be true on paper but try and see how far that goes with our "representatives" in Washington. In my opinion, they are for the lobbyists. They have more or less forgotten that they represent the "people" but they still get voted back in every time they run for office. .

Mary Page says:--"Public education will eventually bring future generations to understand that mental health is a physical thing to be treated just as any other illness."

As we in America and other Democracies move toward the "conquering" of mental illnesses, do you folks see it as Mary does?

Robby

Roberto:

Thank you for the information concerning Enbrel. Yes, I am enrolled in BC/S standard option and Medicare A&B, therefore, I am covered for Enbrel. I phoned my pharmacist for more information about this medication, and she explained that it is an injection type therapy and, as Mike Cantor pointed out, very expensive. From my conversation with her I don’t think my Arthritis is severe enough for Enbrel, however, I’ll speak to my doctor

The National Association of Retired Federal Employees, is also of the opinion that one enrolled in FEP BC/S and Medicare A&B is sufficiently covered. I agree. The BC/S high option where Medicare patients are concerned does not warrant double monthly premiums. However, I must say again, if I was not enrolled in Medicare, I don’t think I would gamble on ANY of the FEPs’ standard option benefits. I would take a close look at all FEP high options.

Bill H

May I suggest that some of the information being exchanged here is more appropriate for the various Health forums. This forum comes under Books and Literature and is concentrating currently on comparing what Alexis deTocqueville said about well-being and what we see in Public Health in America today.

In addition to using the Health forums, an exchange of emails (by clicking on the red names) might also be appropriate, allowing others to post to the topic at hand.

Your assistance would be appreciated.

Robby

ROBBY - a few years ago, I was presenting a lecture in a public school and one of the young students began having a grand mal epileptic seizure. Several of the students around him got up out of their seats, gently eased him to the floor, sat down next to him and made sure that he was not going to be harmed by hitting any of the chairs during his seizure, while another one went running for the school nurse. I stopped my lecture and waited with the students until the seizure had run its course. Then we helped to lift the young fellow up onto a small folding gurney that the nurse brought with her, covered him with a light blanket and watched as two of the older students pushed the gurney to the nurse's office and made him comfortable. I wasn't sure whether to continue or not, but one of the students said "go ahead, they'll stay with Steve until his Mom comes. He's our friend."

I was so PROUD of those kids who responded to an emergency with care, concern and a compassionate attitude, rather than the ridicule that might have been expected years ago. They obviously were familiar with the student's seizures and knew how to respond promptly and correctly. Epilepsy is STILL a misunderstood neurological disorder, although there are so many thousands of people who experience seizures in the USA. But those students took their classmate's seizure in stride.

If you are a caregiver for a severely mentally ill person you do not have a life. Often the strain becomes so much that the caregiver themselves become ill. You cannot act as a jailer either and that causes more problems if the sick person wanders off and the caregiver is physically unable to stop them. Sheltered accomodation with qualified mental health workers is necessary in my opinion for the severely mentally ill. Many patients did not want to leave our country institutions because they felt safe there and many tried to stop them being closed. Now some are on the streets.

Carolyn

For the benefit of those who have recently joined us and perhaps a reminder to all of us as to exactly what we are doing in this forum, following is an excerpt of the very first posting.

Welcome to an exciting adventure! We are about to launch into mainstream America and as we flow along day by day observing the sights and sounds of this vital nation with all its strengths and weaknesses, we will at the same time be making comparisons between what we see and hear and deTocqueville's comments concerning the Democracy he saw.

As the days and weeks go by, America will unfold before our eyes -- political conventions, campaigning, opening of schools across the land, a pause to observe Labor Day and the workplace in America, celebration of Columbus Day and discussion of the origin of America, then the election itself, followed by Thanksgiving, a unique American holiday-- and so America moves on. Very little happened in the United States of America of the early 19th Century that deTocqueville didn't see and comment upon. And so much of what he wrote is apparently relevant to the America of today.

As you observe America and form your thoughts, may I suggest that you refer constantly to the quotes of deTocqueville above. They will be regularly updated so as to stay in line with what America is currently showing us. Is he relevant? Are his observations pertinent to our America? Come aboard and share your thoughts with us!

As this forum moved on, we also discussed population changes in America as well as the condition of minorities. Currently we are discussing Public Health in America and this cannot be done completely without discussing the Federal Drug Administration (FDA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

As panic over the spread of mad cow disease grips Western Europe, American health officials say they have been taking stringent steps to prevent the disease from taking hold in the United States. The brains of sick cattle are routinely tested for the disease. Imports of beef and certain beef products are banned. No one who lived in Britain since the late 1980's, when the epidemic became known, is allowed to donate blood.

So far, these agencies are succeeding in their hard work to protect all of us. Mad cow disese and its human analogue, the new variant Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease, have not been found to have killed any cattle or been identified in people on this side of the Atlantic. Given the small number of human cases in Europe and that mad cow disease has never been proved to exist in American cattle, most experts agree that the risk for most Americans remains extremely low.

Do you see any correlation between deTocqueville's remark (quoted above) which begins: "In no country of the world..." and what our Public Health officials are doing?

Robby

questions asked of me here.

MARY PAGE, you do indeed have it reversed. A generic drug is the less costly, since it is not a brand name, and would therefore be $12 by mail order, or perhaps even less at your local pharmacy, which is 25% of the allowable charge. Check with them first; otherwise the mail order will charge $12, no matter what. A non-generic drug is a brand name, and the charge is $20 by mail order.

BILL H, Enbrel is not for any form of arthritis but Rheumatoid, and is usually prescribed for that only when other forms of treatment have failed.

BETTY GREGORY: I am sorry you got the impression from my post that I thought civil service employees were more deserving than others, when it comes to health care. If you had read my post of yesterday, you would have seen that I am a firm believer in universal health care as a birth right, and am far from an elitist when it comes to such matters. If I had my druthers, there are many changes I would like to see made in not only health care, but matters that affect the many less fortunate than myself. I believe that "all boats should be raised", rather than only those of the very fortunate few, such as myself, who have been able to take better advantage of the system as it now exists. That is going to take a massive educational campaign that will bring about necessary changes in our priorities, so that nobody, regardless of their status in life, is left out.

Bob C

Answers to questions about specific drugs and specific illnesses can be passed along by private email allowing others to continue the discussion about America.

Robby

I appreciate your answer, Bob C.

In the seven months that this Discussion Group has been in existence during which time we have examined the comments of that great writer, psychologist, sociologist, and traveler Alexis deTocqueville, it has become increasingly evident that his observance of this nation covered just about every aspect of our culture.

The behavior and attitudes of women did not escape his gaze. Please take note of his remarks above under the heading of "deTocqueville on the topic of American women." We are all, of course, reading these through the eyes of people of the 21st Century.

Your thoughts, please?

Robby

Roberto, thank you for your informative posts. I see several of us appreciated and benefited from your recent postngs.

Bill H

The National Science Foundation is dedicating $2 million in grant money to find ways of increasing women's participation in technological fields. They state that without this and other steps, women will continue to be discouraged from entering the world of high technology. Studies show that women are active users of the new technology and that female Internet users slightly outnumber male users. But the paucity of women creating that technology is cause for concern.

The most recent N.S.F. statistics show that between 1984 and 1997, the proportion of women receiving bachelor's degrees in computer science dropped from 37 percent to 27 percent. Currently, women make up only 20 percent of the information technology work force.

One reason given is that girls receive little encouragement to explore computers early in their schooling. Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Roberto:

I would like to state that I, along with others participating in this discussion, also appreciate your answer. Your position, as stated, clearly demonstrates that while we may have some differences, the goals that you envision, especially that of “universal health care as a birthright”, cannot be questioned, least of all by me.

I am particularly heartened by your statement with respect to the need for “a massive educational campaign that will bring about necessary changes in our priorities, so that nobody, regardless of their status in life, is left out.” In that, we are of one mind!

People Rule!

Mike

Alexis de Tocqueville observed that "Destitution has driven these unfortunate Indians to civilization and oppression now drives them back to Barbarism." "If they continue barbarous, they are forced to retire; if they attempt to civilize themselves, the contact of a more civilized community subjects them to oppression and destitution. They perish if they continue to wander from waste to waste, and if they attempt to settle they still must perish".

To: Ellen McFadden1; Re:your Post #559;

“....the contact of a more civilized community subjects them to oppression and destitution.” -----Alexis de Tocqueville

It is interesting to note that in 170 years since de Tocqueville’s observation, the plight of the Native American has deteriorated further. On February 23rd a federal Appeals Court found the U.S. government has mismanaged and neglected trust funds kept on behalf of Native Americans for more than a century clearing the way for Indians to seek up to $10 billion they say is rightfully theirs. These trust fund accounts were set up in 1887 to compensate Indians for use of their lands. This includes royalties from the sale of oil, timber and other natural resources channeled into Individual Indian Money Trusts, which are passed down through generations.

Record keeping by the U.S. government has been so poor that government officials cannot say for certain how many Indians have trust fund accounts or how much money is in them. A minimum of 300,000 Indians have accounts out of an overall national population of 2.2 million. $500 million in royalties is put into the accounts each year. Many impoverished Indians rely on the money to pay for food and everyday needs.

Missing records and the deliberate destruction of other trust documents constitute felony fraud on the part of the US government and a black day in the history of this democracy.

The decision by the Appeals Court ensures the authority of conducting trust reform properly so that people will be held accountable and that the trust accounts will be restated to reflect what is actually in them. Government lawyers will probably ask the appellate court to review the case on appeal. The time has finally come to repeal a terrible injustice. It remains to be seen as to whether that, will, in fact finally be accomplished.

People Rule!

Mike

I agree with Mike that in a Democracy the "people rule" at least theoretically. We might ask ourselves if that means all people no matter which gender or primarily the males.

Said one of the recent Senators-elect; "I think what's important is that in a democracy that everyone is represented. And if slightly over half the population are women, it's incredibly important that women are at the table. Every table. Not only the kitchen table, but every decision-making table."

Our type of democracy is a republic with representatives speaking on our behalf. Do you folks believe that the women's voices are being heard as much as the men's voices?

Robby

As a former public school teacher, I am beginning to notice that the numbers of girls are increasing in the math and science classes. They are also appearing in the computer programming classes and the tech classes.This is not to say that parity has been achieved. We need to work harder for that.

Jere:--Thank you for sharing this information which you gained from first-hand experience. Do you, and others here, believe that the increased participation by girls in math, science, computer programming, and tech classes is leading toward greater participation by women in democracies?

Robby

Based on my observation of just five countries, US, Canada, Mexico and Japan I think the US is in the lead and much better than before, but it still does NOT come close to parity. I used to ask this question of my adult classes, What is the ratio of men to women? What is the ratio of men to women managers, secretaries, telephone operators, CEO's and voters. Now tell me you have equality?

Jere in Japan

Jere brings up that important word and concept "ratio." deTocqueville says (above) in commenting on American women: "She is full of reliance on her own strength." Is this strength being efficiently employed in America and other Democracies such as Canada, Mexico, and Japan?

Robby

No, of course women's voices are not being heard to the extent men's voices have been and are. An overwhelming majority of women are saying (and all the polls report) that they don't want the strength of Roe v. Wade chipped away, yet the current president and his political cohort are committed to undermining the strength of that law, or as he puts it, that fewer and fewer will be allowed to get abortions. He will also use the choices for supreme court justices to carry out weakening or doing away with Roe v. Wade.

I wonder how many people understand that, beyond its legal function, Roe v. Wade serves as a barometer. Roe's importance goes far beyond allowing women to decide when and if to be pregnant. It's significance is an ongoing measure of how women's lives are improving or declining, in general. The strength of Roe has been fading over the last 20 years, even as the percentage of women who support it has increased, and, it's important to add, the percentage of men who support it has slightly increased (emphasis on "increased," not "slightly"). So, those who represent us in congress are hearing even less of what women have to say.

I feel badly about this, but I'm really not interested in discussing what de Toqueville had to say about women. The subject of women's lives is too important to me and I'm too familiar with what various men in history had to say about women---most discounting completely the ability of women to live as full participants in social, religious and family matters. Many well known men from history were quite savage in assessing women's small brain, lack of any intelligence, lack of reason or logic, and, therefore, advocated service roles for them....to be attractive, pleasing and attentive to men. (What comes to mind are the words "fine painting." A man wrote that a woman should be like a fine painting, never speaking or in other ways bothering others, but able to inspire with its beauty.)

The tone of de Toqueville's assessment of American women is pleasant, respectful, even if the women of which he writes sound like interesting specimens to be observed and assessed. I might be a tad unfair here, and maybe should welcome a 19th century male view that offers a respectful tone. However, unless someone has training and credentials to do sociological assessment, I'm inclined to think things like...was this a random sample from all walks of life or just some privileged upper class women he happened across in his travels.

Maybe I am just tired of looking that far back and would rather look ahead.

One fellow from the past, maybe contemporary with de Toqueville (or slightly before?), whose opinions on women are worth reading, is John Stuart Mill. Why and how he was able to see so clearly the wretched conditions in which most women lived, no one knows for certain. His short treatise, Subjection of Women (yes, he used the word subjection) likens the status of women to slavery and does it with intelligence and conviction. His fiery concern for women is just incredible, given the time in which he lived. A true feminist before his time and if you find yourself short of hope, go read John Stuart Mill! (He was thinking these thoughts long before Elizabeth Cady Stanton was writing speeches for Susan B. Anthony!!)

Betty

Thank you, Betty, for that simultaneously passionate yet carefully thought out appraisal of women in America since the inception of the nation.

Do you folks see an improvement in this area or is there merely a status quo and perhaps even a regression?

Robby

1869 was the publishing date of Mill's Subjection of Women.

Betty:-- That was 38 years after deTocqueville visited America. And wasn't Mill writing about England? (Which may or may not have made a difference.)

Robby

Good point, but I'm not sure it made that much difference. His views were considered accurate in the middle of the 19th century by American Elizabeth Cady Stanton and several writings of his were mentioned at Seneca Falls, 1848, that first gathering of women (and some men) who were about to begin fighting for the vote for women.

In 1950 I was a Scout Executive based in Geneva, New York, and Seneca Falls was in my district. I have the memory of seeing the very location where they met.

Robby

MIKE CANTOR, I do believe we see eye to eye on just about everything, but let me take one little exception to your last two words, "People rule." I would amend it to "People should rule." I am afraid we have a long way to go before that ideal state comes about. I feel it is the powerful who rule now, as they have through just about all of history. People only rule when things become so intolerable that they force changes in their society. We all know from this past election that the will of the people has been thwarted through manipulation of the electoral system. Though legal, it is an outrage, and I feel there will be repercussions for years to come. The presesnt Administration is taking their triumph as a mandate for regresssive policies, despite the fact that the majority of people, who are supposed to rule, think otherwise. I will bet the ranch there is going to be hell to pay.

About the plight of American Indians, I began my Capitol Hill reporting career back in the late 1940's, and for decades took hearing before the various appropriations committees of both the House and Senate. Tribal leaders from all over the country came each year to plead their cases as to the desperate conditions that existed on their reservations. Each time promises were made by our Representatives that things would be fixed. I took dozens of hearing before the Indian Claims Commission, and over these decades the surface was hardly scratched. It has been stall, and stall some more, with nothing ever being done. I am extremely skeptical about their plight being improved now. It's more of the same bull. AND THE BEAT GOES ON.

Bob C

Bob C states:--"I would amend it to "People should rule." I am afraid we have a long way to go before that ideal state comes about. I feel it is the powerful who rule now, as they have through just about all of history. People only rule when things become so intolerable that they force changes in their society.

Do you have any thoughts, Bob, as to how this might apply to the status of women in America today?

Robby

In France, which is a Democracy, millions of women across the nation have always remained at the fringe of politics, believing that they were not really welcome in an overwhelmingly male club. All that changed this year. Political parties ae wooing women as never before because a law was passed last year in France that appears to go futher than any other in the world in attempting to share representation more evenly between men and women.

Starting with municipal elections scheduled this month, the new law requires all political parties to field an equal number of male and female candidates in almost all elections.

This is the nation from which deTocqueville hailed at the time when they had just completed their revolution. Has France bypassed America in its attitude toward women?

Robby

There is no question that the status of women has improved in America in my lifetime.

I become upset, however, on almost a daily basis as I see the media report stories of new laws legislators at the federal, state, county and city level are constantly attempting to get into the hopper and get passed which will curtail some civil rights for my sex, and only for my sex.

Roe vs Wade is a good law they are trying to eradicate, of course. Some of you might be surprised at how many, many bad laws are cropping up all over the place. One has just been proposed in Colorado which would require all Women (not the men!) to undergo a year of counseling before getting a divorce! If you think about it, the ramifications of that one alone could be horrendous!

We are not in the Constitution of the United States. The ERA was never ratified. We are a majority in numbers, but can be and Are treated as less than equal by most of the minority sex! How can this be, you ask? Simply, too many women are brainwashed on this subject. We need to enlighten them.

Here in NZ we are fortunate. We have a high proportion of women in Parliament and of course we have now had two consecutive women Prime Ministers. Our present one being the Hon Helen Clarke.

However, saying this there is still a way to go in the Corporate World where women often have token positions but hardly ever get to be CEO. Telecom here does have a Woman CEO which was made much of in the media when the appointment was first announced.

What is the proportion of women in the USA and Canada Governments?

Carolyn

We have 13 out of 100 Senators in the United States Senate. I am not up to date on the numbers in the House of Representatives, but I believe the % is smaller. We have, I believe, 2 governors at present, or, whoops, did we just lose 1 to a lesser Cabinet position?

In short, we are Not well represented. I look to the day, probably not in my lifetime, when things will improve and we do not have to fear restriction of our rights. Actually, we should have 51% of the Senate and House for proportional representation!

De Tocqueville wrote about Democracy in America as compared with the new system of government that had just ousted the monarchy with a violent revolution. He compared women here with French women of his time who were aristocrats like himself and just needed to be pretty ornaments. I don't believe he ever associated with ordinary class people. While he was here in America he was 'received' in the best society. Heaven forbid, I would not like to live in his time because I certainly would not have the kind of lifestyle I have today. I would have to be 'taken care of' by my sons who would do only what they thought best for me. I would have no control over my money, my household and the use of my time.

Women then did not enjoy the freedom of movement or of decision that today's women enjoy. If we have made some progress, it is limited. Now we can vote, we can have our own bank account. We can work outside the home and have ALMOST the same freedom as our husband. (we still have to do most of the housework).

I don't believe we can ever have this so-called equality that feminists strive to get.

In France, 7 percent of the nation's mayors and almost 9 percent of its national legislators are women. That is roughly comparable with the United States, where 13 percent of senators are women, but far behind the 45 percent of Sweden's legislators who are women.

Parties in France have had to scour the countryside to find women willing to be candidates. Few have come forward on their own. And even when asked to serve, many women demur, questioning whether they have the time and the competence to enter a field they regard as a male battleground.

Robby

Salute, Bravo, Kudos and all those other good things to Robby---a great navigator and helmsman who smoothly steered us of the rocks and back to the main channel where we belonged.

Knowing very little of medical care I did not contribute to those discussions. Now I'm in familiar territory, having been a woman for a very long time. Just off the top of my head--- it is clearly apparent that De T spent all of his time with Americans in the upper echelons of society. The woman he describes as "mistress of herself"did not exist in that time. No woman was independent of her father or her husband. She was unable to own property, inherit property or, of course, vote. She was chattel. "Purity of manners? probably. They had to know how to beautify their homes, set a lovely table, dress as befitted their social station, be aware of the latest European manners and dress. Hardly the way most women lived then. "Chastity of mind"? De T would have had to have done some creative and remarkable exploration to have discovered that. Most likely chastity of mindwas very much alike for both sexes. I'm actually not sure what IS "chastoty of mind". Can anyone define it for me? It's a little quaint, isn't it? "Timidity or ignorance"? I haven't a clue. And, finally, I agree wholeheartedly with our author that wonen do now and have always relied on their own strenght. They hahe had to in order to survive. It took great self-reliance for women to progress beyond De T's time. It still does.

More later, Mary

“I would amend it to “People should rule.”....People only rule when things become so intolerable that they force changes in their society.” ----Bob C.

I agree! However, I also feel that the winds of change are beginning to envelop us more rapidly than most of us realize in every corner of this earth. Those qualities of perception, intuitive recognition of truth and reality, combined with the slowly dawning realization of the power of one, are just below the rim of the horizon on a new dawning of what tomorrow will bring. There will be no turning back! Enlightenment is approaching on a fast track. Each day’s edition of the news of an awakening of realization of what is really happening throughout the world, in every nation and to every people fully confirms that.

It is for those reasons that I respectfully decline to add any qualifiers such as “should” to my mantra:

“People Rule!”

Mike

Hope your take on this is the correct one.

In 1971 I was the talk of the neighbourhood because I chose to go back to work for 40 hours a week when I had preschoolers. All the neighbours whispered behind my back and I was known as a selfish uncaring mother! In 1971 in NZ only 15% of mothers worked full time! How things have changed!

Also please excuse my gaff in posting a message twice!

Carolyn

Carolyn:--Regarding mothers of pre-schoolers going back to work -- although a second income can lift a family's finances, it is conceivable that for many parents the job is simply a way of staying sane. Working in an office is the only way a parent can make a personal phone call tht lasts more than three minutes -- and finish her breakfast.Being a parent is a wonderful thing, but so is having a second cup of coffee.

As men share at-home parenting responsibilities -- leaving work early to pick up the kids, staying in with the sick ones -- it's no surprise that the number of women returning to the work force is climbing. Mothers have suffered in an under-appreciated and overworked role for too long. Fathers, may I suggest, will not. They will demand extended paid parental leave, better playgrounds, universal day care. Taking care of children is hard work!

The life of a working mother may be difficult, but there's one thing that may be worse -- life for the wife of a parenting father.

Robby

At last! Recognition for the wife and mother....whether she works in the home or out of it.

I was for most of my sons' formative years, a stay at home Mom. That was my choice, probably because both my husband and I were latch-key children and wanted something different for our children. However, I was always miffed when someone asked me if I "worked". You bet your bippy I did!

Andrea (an extremely active Senior Netter!!) emailed me a Link to the NY Times Reading Group which, as you can see below, is discussing deTocqueville. I have underlined the sentence which indicates, I believe, what we have been doing here for seven months. Following is the comment in the Times.

MARCH: The Reading Group has begun its discussion of the March book, Alexis de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America," the classic study of the culture and institutions of the United States, the first volume of which was originally published in 1835. Most readers are wary of current debates over whether Tocqueville can be considered an ancestor of the modern conservative movement. As one reader says, "We'll all have to exercise self-discipline in holding up the mirror of history to Tocqueville's exposition. In a mirror, the left is right and the right, left. Distortions abound." Rather than viewing it as a partisan document, many readers are conceiving of the book as an early study of how to promote the development of democratic societies. One reader, noting that America's democracy "developed over the first half century or so of our nationhood," says that Tocqueville "witnessed the early flowering of the concept and described it well."

Since the late 60's I have realized the unfairness of our so called democracy. We all are aware of the ground breaking of the women's movement of the late 60's and 70's. It was with the book of "THE FEMINE MISTIQUE" that awakened in me the basic cause of my rage of unfairness of my country. Once awakened I changed my lifestyle and with that accomplished had to suffer the disadvantages of "bucking the system". My bucking the system was costly by which I mean divorce, adjustment to a lower level life style, and a certain style of treatment by my friends and acquaintences. It was tough to maintain my necessary carriage of femininity and still resist 2nd class status. I still, at times, have this battle.

What makes me angry is the awakening of women to their 2nd class status so late. Granted socialization is a powerful obstacle to overcome, it is a necessary gamble we must go through. My contention is that not enough women have the courage, even today after much groundwork already laid down, quake at demanding their status of unqualified equality. This sickens me. I see United States still amused and even mocking of the possibility of a female President. It certainly lessens my patriotic homage to our nation.

Power is never given, it must be taken. My regret, "old too soon, smart to late". I am not too certain women will make it in the far future let along the near future. Poor Hillary!

the "--status of women in America today." You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. My views are really quite simplistic, and reflect my ideas on all other types of inequality in our society. I had an uncle who used to say, "Nothing for nothing," and I think that about covers the subject. Nothing is ever given to one on a silver platter. It takes hard work. Women are in the majority at least numbers-wise, and have the power of the ballot. If they want something bad enough, they've got to get mad enough to take it. I guess I'm singing my same old tune here. Use your power where it counts most. Get out there and walk the walk and talk the talk. It takes a massive educational program for the have-nots to take the power that is necessary to achieve social goals. Women have the numbers, but they are not taking advantage of it. All it takes is the ballot box.

Bob C

It is the pace of our society which prevents women from realizing they have been treated as second class citizens, that many of the "nice, church-going men", such as the one who has just been exposed as a traitor, are something else again under their public masks, and that women have the power to organize and do something about these things.

Women are stuck with most of the work load everywhere. Men hold the important, decision-making positions of power. They make most of those decisions in offices and on the golf course. Women do the paper work in those offices and do the bulk of the work at home as well. Men have more hours of leisure. They have time to evaluate the news and form opinions, or to swap views while enjoying sports events. Women's lives are harried, hassled, over-worked and over-stressed. They tend to vote by what the men say. It never occurs to some of them that perhaps there are issues directly concerning themselves and their children which the candidates the men like are not going to take care of to their benefit.

I am generalizing here, of course, because what else can I do? There are many exceptions to what I have laid out above; but I truly see this as the main problem in corraling the majority (the female) voters to understand what the stakes are.

Cathy says:--"Power is never given, it must be taken."

Bob says:--"Women have the power of the ballot All it takes is the ballot box."

Mary says:--"Women have the power to organize and do something about these things."

One word seems to pop up in all three quotes.

Robby

ROBBY - it might also be an interesting point in this discussion to examine the differences in how men and women recognize and utilize power. How often have assertive, self-confident, well informed and articulate women been criticized for their manner, while men possessing the same qualities have been commended? What is so disconcerting about a strong woman who exhibits her strength professionally and personally, while a man of the same measure is respected?

deTocqueville commented upon this in his quote (above) which begins:--"She is remarkable..."

Robby

Mahlia points to a very, very important psychological factor. Hey, Robby, I feel that I am tramping through Your fields here, as I am certainly Not qualified to discourse on that subject matter.

However, I do hold the qualification of Being a woman, and it is true that when we speak our opinions we are considered "unwomanly", as though the definition of a woman includes in bold red: "a member of a sex which has no opinions."

We have brains, opinions, and talents in abundance!

By far the greater number of patients who come to see me are women. They are willing to reach out. Men come to see me when they are "coerced" by the women in their lives, or when their situation is so bad that there is no doubt they can't handle it themselves. Then comes the next part -- getting them to unearth their feelings as opposed to their thoughts or their behaviors. There are exceptions of course.

So now the question comes. Where does "power" enter in all this -- if it does? Over the centuries why has it been acceptable to both genders that the men "run the show?"

Robby

One part of the answer about allowing power to remain with men...maybe a small part...is religion. Many of the religions in the U.S. accept the male as dominant and the female as a helper to the dominant male.

I have no new statistics on this. How much available capital do women control today? The ballot is important but there has to be available money to effect many changes. Do you think that women are on a financial par with men?

Mary

The birth of the parity law in France mentioned in an earlier posting was not easy. First seriously discussed in the early 1990s, it engendered fierce opposition, even from some feminists who said that quotas of any kind were demeaning to women. But since the passage of the law, the idea has steadily grown in popularity.

In one recent poll, 63 percent of those surveyed said that the parity law meant that French voters would get a better choice of candidates, and that the law would bring about better governance. Sixty-five percent said they wanted a woman elected mayor in their town in 2001.

Could it be, as I suggested earlier, that France has bypassed us and is more of a Democracy than America is?

Robby

“Women are in the majority at least numbers-wise, and have the power of the ballot. If they want something bad enough, they've got to get mad enough to take it.”

“Women have the numbers, but they are not taking advantage of it. All it takes is the ballot box.” -------Bob C.

Agreed! But not quite enough! Getting mad enough and having the numbers are essential but there are still two other ingredients, which are mandatory for success to be achieved in demonstrating the awesome potential of the power of women in this democracy.

One is the demonstrable leadership of charismatic women, in greater numbers that currently exist, who have the skills and determination to instill a willingness on the part of a large portion of the female population, not excluding that of the male population, in supporting them philosophically, politically and financially.

Just as equal in importance is the willingness on the part of the female population in this nation to support such women in a unified rather than fragmented outspoken manner in such numbers that they cannot and will not be summarily dismissed as being of little relevance to significant issues.

Participation in American elections is only slightly more than fifty percent of those eligible to participate. Can you imagine the difference it would make to this nation if American women could be moved to become so involved in the electoral process that their actual voting numbers alone could increase to at least half of those eligible to vote?

As Bob says: “Women are in the majority at least numbers-wise, and have the power of the ballot. If they want something bad enough, they've got to get mad enough to take it.”

I often wonder what it would take to make them mad enough!

“People Rule”

Mike

In surfing the TV news channels this evening I caught part of a news broadcast announcing that, due to a change in laws, there are now more women holding public office in France than there have ever been in its’ history. This is particularly evident in all of their municipal elections resulting in almost all French mayors being women.

To no ones great surprise French men are up in arms about this “problem”. One gentleman went so far as to introduce the subject of discrimination against men. His position was that if the law favored women in elections, than it would be just as logical to discriminate between tall and short men or thin and overweight men. Say what?? To those a little more discerning as to what is really happening, I can only say: “Vive la France”! Somewhere, I have the feeling that deTocqueville must indeed be smiling!

“People Rule!”

Mike

I have always envied the guts of the French to stand up for what they believe in and to exercise their rights of protest, sometimes not that peacefully!

Y'know the most amazing thing too. Their Government listens!! I have not yet seen them being batoned by police during a protest. They do have free speech which is more than I can say for our people!

Viva La France!

Carolyn

Cathy F you are right to be enraged. In Japan the women are getting the laws passed for freedom from harassment, discrimination, stalkng but yet are not exercising that power because of a lack of education. They look to the US and Canadaian women as role models.

However, they do not recognise the power of the purse that they have. In a typical Japanese household it is the custom and practice for the husband to give the paycheck to the wife who gives the husband an allowance for the rest of the week or month. She pays their bills including his bills.

Still the discrimination et al goes on because the men do not know what discrimination/harassment/stalking is. I have posted on this subject before so will not repeat the example.

You are enraged but the Japanese population, men and women alike, are taught not to lose emotional control so how do we get them enraged and the rest of the women of the world?

Why is it only up to the women to get "mad enough" to speak up and vote and change things? Don't any men have daughters and granddaughters and wives and sisters that they'd like to support? Is the fate of women only interesting to women?

Betty

“You are enraged but the Japanese population, men and women alike, are taught not to lose emotional control so how do we get them enraged and the rest of the women of the world?” -----Jere Pennell

Jere that is a very interesting question! Of course there are many nations, other than Japan, in which women have been subjugated by custom and male domination through so many centuries that the concept of reactive resistance based on anger and frustration has been practically bred out of them. But the thing that places the human soul above all other creatures is the ability to question: “Why?” That ability, while being latent almost to the point of non-existence in some cultures, has however, and always will be part of the human physche. It may remain dormant for ages but I sincerely believe that eventually, perhaps as a gift of the creator of us all, it will eventually discard its’ dormant mode and through evolution and the process of natural selection, slowly begin to grow and flower to a maturity of beauty, independence and strength it has never known before.

In essence, that means that the ability to recognize the validity of an inner rage and accept it for what it is, must come from within. It is not a benefit that can be given from one individual to another. It must grow from the seeds which have already been planted in our consciousness. Cultivation for growth of those seeds will come, as it does for all people of this world we currently occupy, when the leaders have appeared to show us the path we must follow to achieve our own specific destinies. All of the lessons of the history of humanity confirm this as a true reality of life. And so it will be for the women of Japan as well as for all of the men, women and children of the rest of the world.

People Rule!

Mike

Am I correct that in most of India, the woman is subjugated to the man? And isn't India (the largest democracy in the world) the nation that for years was ruled by a woman?

Robby

When one considers it was not until the early 1920's that women had the right to vote, explains some of our being behind in the accumulation of wealth and therefore power. In Victorian times women's property became the property of her husband after marriage. Early in the life of America building its style of Dmocracy women were victims of "Anatomy was destiny". Since the advent of the "PILL" women were liberated from becoming reproduction machines.

Since these very strong bridles on women's lives she had a very short time to accumulate wealth/power. To this day how many fathers groom their daughters for power positions in politics, business,and communications? I can't think of any. How many people know that GeorgeBush Sr.has a daughter? Not many. I wonder why. Anyway, like the Blacks women have a lot of catching up to do. That is why my support for women in positions of power will always have my vote.

Also, BETTY, I find the Christian religion and the Bible responsible for many of our difficulties in fighting for the potential of women's struggle for the expression of their talents to lead.

I observe that any time there is a woman that stands out in politics, people make derogatory remarks about her, such as she must be a lesbian or she sure must hate men. Never is she characterized as feminine, etc.

Do you notice very many women in media over the age of 40? I know we have a couple like Barbara Walters or Diane Sawyer. However, there is no problem with old men on the news. They can look old and wrinkled, but women have to stay young and "sexy" looking in order to be in front of the camera. There is still so much discriminations.

Personally, I feel that most men fear a strong, intelligent woman. They voice the opinion that they like women like that but they don't want to marry one! They still want the timid little mouse for a wife that keeps her mouth shut. Bare foot and pregnant is the ideal!!!

Robby, Indira Ghandi was of the highest caste and had wealth and an education.

Hundreds of millions of females in India are totally illiterate. They are considered not worth the expense of educating. They do not know any better for the simple reason they have never been TOLD of or HEARD of any other way of life whatsoever.

There are volunteer groups of women from our country and others who are going into the poorest villages and trying to organize the women and bring about change. They have affected marvelous results, but so far they are making only the slightest of dents in the overall problem, which is a problem of culture.

Cathy, it appears to me that Most religions which have been organized by and run by the males of our species have been set up so as to exclude women and delegate them to a lower status in society. When they are ten years old and have clubhouses in trees, playrooms, garages, backyard sheds, etc., which firmly state "NO GURLS!", we think boys are cute and funny and that it is just a phase. Unfortunately, for too, too many of them it is not just a phase. They get bigger, but they never grow up and get over their clubby tendencies.

In response to the post by Martex # 607.

"Margaret Chase Smith was born in Skowhegan, Maine, on December 14, 1897. Her entry into politics came through the career of Clyde Smith, the man she married in 1930. Clyde was elected to the United States House of Representatives in 1936; Margaret served as his secretary. When Clyde died in 1940, Margaret succeeded her husband. After four terms in the House, she won election to the United States Senate in 1948. In so doing, she became the first woman elected to both houses of Congress."

Margaret Chase Smith was never thought of as a man-hater. I suggest that the flower she wore on her jacket or blouse every day she was in public service might have been a sign of her famininity.

Mal

My mother wasn't able to vote until the year I was born. She was 28 at the time.

MaryPage:--If Indira Ghandi became President because she was high caste and was well educated, then perhaps the answer in America is improved eductation for women? Education = power?

Robby

Mal, I read a book written by or about, I forget which, but I think she wrote it, Margaret Chase Smith (whom I admired extravagantly) in which she laid out a lot of really, truly hateful things her fellow senators did to make her life miserable.

That has always been my entire argument, Robby. Women need to be educated. The consciousness-raising groups popular in the seventies helped enormously here, but we need a lot more and we need it yesterday.

MaryPage:--Education is supposedly as available to females as males in America. What change would you make?

Robby

I am not talking about public school education here in America, Robby. This is about catching the Attention of women and getting them to read and hear the true facts and statistics about their condition as human beings in our society. Too many start out by age 13 as boy-crazy shopaholics with telephonitis. They never stop to contemplate Anything, much less where they are on the power-scale. By the time they are attempting to balance working and taking care of a family, they instinctively know there is something wrong, but do not understand what and do not have the time to find out. I would like to get to them before they even finish Junior High, or Middle School, and motivate them to change their focus. Unfortunately, Girl Scouts and most other groups do not appreciate what is needed here.

The training required can be done in the home, of course, but hardly by mothers who do not themselves know the system.

My daughters and granddaughters found their focus with the assistance of fervent oratory from moi.

So if the training should be done primarily in the home and most mothers do not know the system, where do we stand?

Robby

I stand grinding my teeth and foaming at the mouth with smoke coming out of my ears.

Seriously, though, I do not know how to address the problem, there are so many different aspects to it. Dreadful role models, for one. This applies to boys, as well. Girls see all this tacky behavior, with the emphasis being on attractiveness consisting of being as naked as the law will allow, with as many pieces of jewelry piercing body parts as we used to shudder over in the National Geographic when we were kids. Amazing how a supposedly civilized nation considers it sophisticated to go primitive, isn't it? We need to convince our young they are contributing to their own downfall while expending their energies on the selling of sex. For the guys, it is macho sports and music (?) icons with toilet mouths and rude manners that have a violent edge to them. I don't know, Robby. Can we change the Three Rs to FOUR, by adding a course on Respect, to be taken (given) from K through 12? Respect for self AND others.............

I had the good fortune, during my reportorial career, to get to know this most distinguished Senator. She was a "Class Act", with a capital C. I came to admire her over many years for her intelligence, wisdom, and sense of fair play. The country is much the better that she passed our way.

BETTY GREGORY asks why more men don't get mad enough, when it comes to the plight of women. I'm back sounding my usual refrain about power. It is not ever surrendered without a fight. Men have this power, and have had it down through the centuries. Men must be educated right along with women. My mother used to tell me how she marched in parades, demanding the right to vote. That did not come easy, but only after much hard work.

Women have always been sexual objects to most men, and women themselves have, to a large extent, bought into this. "Me Tarzan, you Jane." You have standard setters that women follow. There's that fraud Madonna, cute little t & a specialist Britney Spears, Pamela Anderson and Julia Roberts, two of the many cleavage experts, who help set standards for females. Just shake your booty, girls, and the world is yours.

In politics we have such shining examples as the late Claire Booth Luce the famous courtesan Pamela Harriman, and that most recent shining example of the use of "feminine mystique", Hillary Clinton, whose main claim to fame is that she was married to former President Clinton. What sad examples these are of female achievement.

Women do indeed need role models, but not of these kinds and characters. I find myself hard pressed to even think of women who have achieved fame and fortune through their own efforts, though I'm sure I could with a little more thought on my part. What is lacking here is sufficient education on the part of parents and teachers. A woman's anatomy should not be a cause for achieving greatness, but rather her intellectual abilities. I go back once again to power. It takes work, and lots of it. Until that time arrives, women are always going to be taking a back seat to men. Women can have the power, if they would only learn to value themselves as a group, and pull together, along with men, to achieve their goals.

Bob C

Bob C says:--"I find myself hard pressed to even think of women who have achieved fame and fortune through their own efforts."

I realize that he said this in a positive manner and I pass it along in that fashion but the question arises -- why is it hard for him and me and many others to locate such women in our minds? They are out there somewhere but obviously not high in political and/or business circles.

The solution? MaryPage suggests a course in respect to be given K-12 so now we are back to the school again rather than the home.

Maybe the only answer is the passage of time - perhaps 100 years?

Robby

Marie Curie, Jane Austen, Clara Barton, Florence Nightingale, Susan B. Anthony, Harriet Tubman, Eleanor Roosevelt, Margaret Thatcher, Mother Theresa .............

What I was thinking of was women who are high in the political/business world - women who are looked at as CEOs, presidents, etc. I agree, there are many excellent authors and scientists who are women.

Robby

Your society is geared up to encouraging young girls to think only of their looks and shopping. Who is idolised in your high schools? The Jocks and the cheerleaders! Parents in America even have plastic surgery done on their daughters. Most of this surgery is purely cosmetic so again what message does this sort of thing send out to young women. When the bright but not beautiful are respected and admired womens aspirations will start to change.

Students in our high schools wear uniforms and no makeup is allowed there are only a handful of schools where uniform is not worn and they are not among the top schools. Methinks the competion in the clothing etc distracts from the schoolwork.

Just a casual observation after watching a program on child beauty pageants. Thank goodness they are not popular here (only among the Filipino community).

Carolyn

You have named A Students NERDS!

What you want is what you get!

So now we're back again to "training" within the home.

Robby

I agree Margaret Chase Smith, Eleanor Roosevelt were good examples. I also loved Barbara Jordan. However, I was speaking generally. There are always a few exceptions to the rule. Most of the women who have made it did have "money", too.

Carolyn, You amaze me. I agree with everything I have ever read that you posted!!

Martex:--Good point! Is it necessary, as with Indira Ghandi for example, that women need to have both money and education to rise to the top?

Robby

According to research done at the University of Tennessee and published in the American Journal of Public Health, many of the programs set up to help elderly people, especially women, are not reaching those in need. Nearly one quarter of about 1,000 disabled women aged 65 years and older said they could not afford food. But less than 3% received home delivered meals. Less than 5% attended group meal programs and only about 19% were receiving food stamps.

According to the study, despite national programs targeted at reducing nutritional deficits in the elderly, particularly the frail elderly, many older disabled women still appear to be having difficulties obtaining adequate food. Minority women were more likely to report financial barriers to receiving food. Nearly 50% of non-white women compared with just over 13% of white women reported financial difficulty obtaining food. The authors suggest that this finding reflects "the depth of poverty in non-white women."

Robby

Why do we expect life to improve (?)(change) overnight. 100, 200 years? Look at the women in the work force today for what ever reason, compared to yesterday. And has anyone addressed the warfare that goes on to rise to the top. Whether it is in the genes or whereever. Is it Mothers love that gets in the way, and Dads going to battle? Must read Mars vs Venus. what a logical title.

The FIGARO MAGAZINE of Frence, 17 Feb. 2001,

"A large proportion of tests do not show signs of the disease because the desease only reaches the brain after the cow has been infected a certain length of time, perhaps years. The laboratories perform tests only on a small sample of brain tissue where they look for 'prion' (my dictionary did not have the translation in English) where it lodges towards the end of its journey. This element slowly goes up the nervous system. During the first years, it is absent from the cerebellum, and its accumulation in that region only becomes perceptible after a long period, and is invisible and not reactive to the array of tests now being done. The samples are sent to the lab and the carcass moves ahead to the holding area and is kept there for ONE day until the result of the test is known, then it is sent out for human consumption".

According to this article, every British citizen has eaten infected beef at one time in his life. The tests are not a veritable guarantie for beef consumption.

How sure are we that our beef is desease free? Not at all I would say.

This article mentions a possible relation between Alzheimer's(sp) and mad cow desease.

I still eat some beef, but not as much as before.

To see the statistics about elderly poor women in America. Very sad when we advertise ourselves as the most advanced, wealthiest place in the world. I imagine there are a lot of disappointed imigrants who expect to pick up gold bars in the streets of America.

No one should go to bed hungry in any part of the world.

The old, the ugly and the invisible. They should go away; what is the use of them, anyway? They're just taking up space and resources.

I believe this is the mind-set of much of America.

Rather discouraging, to say the least, when you are one of their number!

MARY PAGE, of women who have achieved greatnest in one field or another, as I said, with a little thought, but that is the problem. it does take a little or even a lot of thought. One could go on endlessly when it comes to men who have achieved success in whatever field. Women have to struggle individually and as a group to achieve any kind of success in whatever endeavor they choose to undertake. I am sure most of us remember the little character named Topo Gigio, where the puppeteer had the figure say, when Topo was told how easy something was, "For you easy, for me difficult."

That's the sad story with so many women. They've got to run harder and faster to stay in place with men. That's certainly not fair, but it is a fact. Feminine wiles have played a large role in the success of so many women in the political and other arenas, while strict ability by itself has been almost completely ignored. It is going to take a long learning process to undo the ills of the past, and that has got to start with the educational system. It will take hard work and more of the same, but over time I am sure it can and will be done. What length the time will be is hard to say, but it will come.

Bob C

Women historians have taken on the problem of researching the question: "Why are there not more famous women painters, playwrights, authors, composers, etc?"

They find there WERE women. Women who appeared to be assistants and apprentices to MEN who presented the work of these women as their own. Why? Because it would NOT HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED otherwise.

Someone famous who writes today suffered the death of his wife recently. Said he would never write again. The word is out that his wife wrote all of his books. ALL of them. Is it Dick Francis? I am not certain, but I did note this not long ago.

Women disguised themselves as men in order to paint, compose, and write. The Bronte sisters sent their books in with male pen names! And even the publishers admitted much later that they WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN LOOKED AT THEM if they had believed they came from women!

No! No! We have always possessed the talents. The place the male-dominated society placed us in forced us underground and stole our recognition.

I would like to suggest that the reason women have not had the level of success as men is because women are too busy making life easy for their men and don't have the free time to create in the arts.

I also believe that women have allowed themselves to caught up in the myth that woman is an ornament and all she needs to be is beautiful (which, by the way, takes time). SHE does not have a wife to take care of laundry, meals, housecleaning, running errands, chauffering, etc.

Women, today, are enrolling in colleges as never before and in many of the academic communities report women's enrollment is over half of the enrollment. Female doctors are no longer a novelty, we are having more and more women in the judicial system. The time is coming in the arts too as women reject marriage in order to have the freedom to create. (This is happening in Italy - the birth rate has dropped desperately in areas because women have become aware that they will just be a domestic slave if they marry.

I am surpised that no one mentioned Margaret Thatcher, Medeline Albright, Opry Winfrey, Catherine Graham, all great achievers.

deTocqueville said (above) that "An American woman is always mistress of herself."

Is there nowadays a certain amount of self-pity on the part of some women or do women as deT saw them no longer exist?

Robby

ROBBY!!!!! What do you mean self-pity! I can't beleive you believe that. That remark of self-pity is often made of the Blacks. After much suppression, in the past and even now, that remark very often gets made by some men smug in their own theories as to why women and other minorities have not made it big in politics, business, arts, etc. Would you dare ask that question of a Black or an American Indian? Shame! I make this retort with a weak grin!!!!!

Cathy:--I didn't make a statement. I asked a question. And I would also ask it of a Black or Indian. Asking something is not necessarily implying it. It begs an answer.

Robby

At the Medical University of South Carolina in the late 1980's, the university's public hospital in Charleston tested the urine of selected maternity patients and turned evidence of their cocaine use over to the police. Thirty women were arrested, some taken from their hospital beds in handcuffs directly after giving birth. Said those doing it: "Law enforcement was not the purpose of it at all. All it did was help people get off cocaine and avoid the tragedy of these pathetic babies coming into the world."

The question later coming before the U.S. Supreme Court was whether the drug tests, conducted without warrants and without suspicion of individual wrongdoing, were unconstitutional searches.

Robby

Robby, I knew you were just playing the Devil's Advocate, but couldn't help using you as an example of my feelings on the matter.

Everday it seems authority reaches beyond its boundries and the public shrugs it away if it does not affect us personally. I feel we must be more alert to how the government tries to cure social problems. It can become a real danger to all of our rights. I am very concerned how overpowering the drug control efforts that are being conducted.

In November four more women joined the ranks of the Senate, bringing the total to 13. The woman Senator from Texas said: ""Women, in general, try to make people feel more comfortable and ease anxieties." Said the woman Senator from Maine: "My experience has been that women tend to be better at working across the aisles and are more pragmatic and results oriented."

Do you folks here see women, in general, as having those traits?

Robby

I do, Robby.

I truly believe if women ruled the world we would have no wars.

Why kill one another? It does not solve the problems! Why not find ways to get along together? Why not make allowances?

I have noted with amazement that many of the same people who preach that married couples should find ways to get along and maintain the marriage also want us to take our guns and armed forces and wipe out other countries and want to do away with the United Nations.

Eons ago Philip Wylie wrote a book in which one half of the book shows what would happen to our world if it were suddenly totally without the female sex. That half of the book ended with total nuclear annihilation. In the other half, the world was suddenly totally without the male sex. At the end of that half of the book, the President of the United States was meeting the President of the U.S.S.R. mid-Atlantic Ocean for a conference on Peace in This World!

Wylie was an iconoclast who wrote in the fifties. And yes, he was a male, so you see, they DO come endowed with good sense sometimes!

Is this related to the "purity of manners" that deTocqueville mentions above?

Robby

"She is remarkable rather for purity of manners than for chastity of mind." I love this statement. Think of what it implies!

I believe that if women were ruling the world, we'd still have wars. There is not one facet of male thinking that a woman doesn't have, despite hormonal differences. Surely a woman ruler obsessed with power would have no qualms about grabbing a smaller country if it happened to have what she wanted. The peacemakers would intervene in the name of peace and would certainly defend themselves with arms if the need arose.

Show me the time when two people of vastly different philosophies and opinions can get along without some sort of confrontation, not to mention countries, and I'll say perhaps then there might be a chance of no wars.

Mal

Remember the war that Margaret Thatcher readily engaged in the Falklands with Argentina? She was called the "Iron Lady". I will until the balance is complete to support any woman that is in power to equalize our war efforts to change the past and current philosophy of war as we have known it in the past.

If women are to rule with less cruelty it must take place soon in extraordinary circumstances. Otherwise she is going to believe force is necessary for survival.

We have no other record to my recollection that women would be more merciful than any leaders of the past. STILL I AM ADAMENT THAT THE LEADERSHIP OF WOMEN CAN BRING A NEW HUMANITY TO THE WORLD IF SHE BELIEVES IN IT! I THINK WE DO!!!!!

I don't believe that if women would be leaders that there would be no more wars. Animal Mothers are ferocious in protecting their young. I believe even more than the male of the species. I for one would probably be ferocious. hahah.

It is just that society has always expected women to kowtow to their men. It is changing but we won't see it in our lifetime. Maybe not even in our daughters' time to a great extent.

This might be off track, but where in the marriage vows does it say that women will do the cooking, laundry, housekeeping? Until men realize that they can do those things, too, there will be little change for women.

I've often thought that if women were responsible for the countries in the Middle East and Central Asia, there would be less violence. Not completely devoid of violence, but less inclined to take up the sword. I think of former female leaders (Indira Gandi, Benazir Bhutto and Golda Meir), who like their male counterpats, headed countries during times of war. Granted, these women were mentored by men, but they had strong intellectual, analytical and diplomatic skills of their own which they put to good use.

There is a lot to be said on the positive side about the differences in how women accept and process power in public office as compared to their male counterparts. I agree that in times of emergency and war, women would probably NOT be less ferocious, nor would they neglect their responsibilities to protect their constituencies. But I believe they would strategize differently than men.

MARTEX - I believe you are right in noting the protective instincts of female animals towards their young. In my Persian family background, we have an ancient saying among the women that is still heard fairly often today: "treat me as you wish and I will defend myself against your tongue, but harm my family and I will kill you in an instant."

Women, for the most part, don't go into politics, are not: great composers, great architects, inventors, generals, dictators, renown artists and ruthless in business because they are women.

A woman's psychic is oriented towards motherhood since conception. Until she is finished with that role, say after menopause, her mind, her thoughts, her actions all converge towards building and maintaining a nest for her young.

When the nest empties, she has lost her youth, overwhelming ambition, drive to excel, compete and win that she needs to reach the top where men are in their 40's and 50's.

I do not envy men. A man's career is the most important thing in his life and that is needed to satisfy the demands of raising a family.

De Tocqueville just added plattitudes to his otherwise brilliant exposé of Democracy in America in the 1800's.

In 1939 a few paintings of Grandma Moses were hanging in a drugstore in Hoosick, New York. An art collector saw them and bought 15 of her paintings. Three of them were shown that year in the Museum of Modern Art in New York City. Grandma Moses was 79 years old.

I started publishing my first electronic magazine in 1997 at the age of 67 and wrote nine novels after the age of 60. I now have three literary magazines on the World Wide Web.

Who was that writer who published her first book, a best seller, at the age of 90?

After the nesting phase of their lives is over, some women do not stop. Some women continue and accomplish a great many things.

Mal

So, we're back to education.

Education comes in many forms. Day to day experience is a wonderful teacher. Whatever else you think of Clinton, he did appoint women to some very visible, powerful positions. The highest ranking "police officer" was a woman, Attorney General Reno. The representative of the United States of America who traveled and talked with the world's most powerful leaders was a woman, Secretary of State Albright. For all those years, little girls and young women and older women experienced women in several powerful roles in ways that had never happened before.

I live in Austin, the capitol of Texas. It's a unique place. Our County Sheriff is a woman, gays serve on city councils and commissions. Our city's long-standing commitment to protecting the environment puts the state's and other cities' policies to shame. (The protection of an ancient and sensitive aquifer under the west side has guided many decades of development decisions.)

I know this is an odd way to make a point, but progress for women and other groups is taking place in....Texas. Wouldn't you say that's a hopeful sign for the rest of the country?

I know I'm usually the first to point out how much ground has been lost and what a risky and dangerous time it is for the fundamental rights of women, but I also see a broader continuum upon which progress is proceeding inch by inch, as if it cannot be halted.

(Except for Supreme Court Justice appointments, that is.)

Back to education. What needs to be learned? What do elementary school age girls need to know? (And boys, too.) Basically, that boys and girls are very, very, very much alike. That there are no fundamental, inherent biological differences (outside of reproduction). That boys and girls sometimes learn to behave differently after they are born. That we learn roles---how to act like a real "boy," how to act like a real "girl." That the messages of how to be are all around us...from television programs to books like Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Without proof and against much existing scientific data, these programs and books promote the idea that boys and girls are somehow inherently different. A wealth of information known to researchers all over the world simply does not support this theory.

(continued) That within each one of us is great art or great architecture or medicine, or great writing. That being an excellent "achiever" (like men are taught) is ready inside all of us. That being an excellent parent (like women are taught) is ready inside all of us. That the human body, just as it is, is beautiful. The body doesn't need out-of-proportion large muscles or face make-up to be beautiful. That size of house does not determine size of happiness. That beauty does not fade when women get wrinkles and men lose hair, that natural aging isn't something to fear. That there is no age cut-off for starting new careers. That very old women and very old men are fun to know and are still beautiful.

That reading will always bring you what you need to know. Read newspapers, history, good stories, poetry, the latest science, biographies. Read every day.

Betty

Taking into consideration what Betty has to say, much of which if not all I agree with, I then think of her question:--"What do elementary school age girls need to know?" And the following statistics come to mind.

The United States has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the industrialized world and a higher teen birth rate than more than 50 developing countries. Forty percent of American girls become pregnant before the age of 20, and 80% of these are unintended pregnancies to unmarried teens.

Is this related to education (or lack of education) of elementary school age girls (and boys)?

Robby

According to the United Nations Population Fund, "discrimination and violence against women remain firmly rooted in cultures around the world." The statistics so far show eighty million unwanted pregnancies not to mention infanticides and so-called "honor" killings. Said the report:--"Passed down from one generation to the next, ideas about 'real men' and 'a woman's place' are instilled at an early age and are difficult to change."

The "State of World Population Report 2000" said girls and women the world over are still routinely denied access to education and health care -- including control over their reproductive activity -- and to equal pay and legal rights.

Is this something you see limited to nations which are not democracies, or is it across the board?

Robby

It would seem to be cultural.

On the one hand, most teenagers today are sexually active.

On the other hand, most adults are unable to process this as fact.

So we have a battle going on. Not between the teenagers and the adults, but between adults and adults.

We have the group of adults who say we must preach abstinence to the kids, and never, ever give them contraceptives.

And the group who say, DO, by all means, preach abstinence, BUT also offer them contraceptives.

I am all for the kids abstaining from sex until marriage, and all for them not getting married until they are 35.

I am also a realist. No generation on the face of this planet has EVER been able to change the culture of teenagers, whatever it might be at the time. I do not feel it is caving in to favor facing reality. If it is, then I cave in! I cave in to save teenagers from these unwanted pregnancies and from the diseases that unthinking promiscuity spreads. One day these kids will be the grownups. Maybe they will find out how to resolve these problems for Their teenagers.

Oh, and violence to women and discrimination, in health matters as well as every other field, is prevalent here in America as well as in the rest of the world. I believe Israel, Sweden, and a few other countries are exceptions to this rule. But not the United States. Did you hear Dan Rather last night? Did he say 40% of married women in America suffer from domestic violence? I believe he did state that these are the latest figures, and they have come down from higher percentages!

That's the 2nd thing, Marypage, after kids having sex, that adults can't believe---that people who claim to love women are battering them. Interestingly, some of those non-believing adults are the ones dishing out the violence and some are the women receiving it. You'd think that those adults would be easier to convince, but not so.

Whenever, and I mean each time, I have occasion to write something about emergency room statistics or anything else about violence against women, no one has anything to say. I imagine people thinking, yeah, yeah, we've heard all about that before. Or, my more usual thought...that people think, "there she goes again," that radical person, for bringing up a "woman's issue."

On a few occasions in in-person settings, as eyes began to glaze over, I stopped and asked whatever man was nearest me for the name of a sister or daughter. Then I would continue, using "Lisa" (or whatever name given) in for-example examples. I could only do it for a minute or two because it was too painful to continue. People can't tolerate the pain of thinking something like that might happen to a family member, but for it to happen to someone "out there" doesn't sustain interest. Denial functions so well that important information is missed.

ROBBY - not only should we be reflecting on the fact that there is such substantially high numbers of resident American women being abused, but also there are "slave cartels" in the USA, which function as the base for enslaved prostitution in several of our major cities. The young women, girls and some boys, who are enslaved in these cartels are "purchased" abroad or promised opportunities for improving their lives in the USA. Once they reach the country, they are turned over to local cartels and foced into prostitution. One of the networks ran an in-depth program on this topic a few nights ago. Immigration and Naturalization comments were included in the program -meaning that govt. officials are aware of the problem - but little has been done to curtail this type of slavery in the USA.

Watching the program, I was reminded of a similar type of enslaved prostitution run by Israelis in Tel Aviv. There was also a TV program about that location a few months ago. The women are brought from Eastern Europe and Russia primarily, although some Scandanavian women involved in drugs were also "assigned" to a specific brothel in Tel Aviv.

When I was a visiting professor in China a few years ago, one of my female students wrote a paper on drugs and prostitution in Shanghai, where one of her female relatives had been kidnapped and forced into prostitution some years earlier. It was shocking to read the young woman's comments, as they seemed to cavalier, but when I talked to her face-to-face I easily saw the fear in her eyes.

I agree with Mal - women of my generation raised their kids and took care of their households and managed their education and careers all at the same time. I have women friends now who are senior officials in both govt. agencies and corporate offices; they still BALANCE - which is the name of the game for women. Perhaps now that there are a few more men sharing responsibiliteis for the kids, they will know what it's like. But overall, the balancing game is still for women.

The State of World Population Report 2000 points out that Governments last year agreed to targets that include:--

1 - Halving the 1990 illiteracy rate for women and girls by 2005
2 - Meeting the need for family planning by 2015
3 - Reducing youth HIV levels by one quarter by the year 2010, and
4 - Ensuring that skilled attendants assist 90 percent of all births by 2015.

Robby

Betty, I do not feel its a "yeah, yeah" or never a "there she goes again". It is more what can be done about it. Once the marriage has taken place it is too late. I beleive all good parents worry greatly when their children get married. What have we misseed? What is the test for an abusive spouse. The Mother to the child included. Lust always seems to preceed love and I for one do not know what you can do about it.

I must say I get so tired of the question of how we treat women. We should treat women as we treat any other groups of humans. But - usually it invloves their humanity and dignity which seems to be lost in the valuation of women. Woman is more that a reproductive machine, she is more than a comfort provider, she is more than a "momma" for neglected males. She is a unit that deserves all the known benefits known to the good life. She has no more obligation for making life easy for men, and other humans dragging her strength beyond her natural energy. She has the right to demand the space to become all she can be that we usually only apply to men.

the Dan Rather show. There was also one instance shown of a wife's violence against her husband, who is in the Air Force, I believe. He is in fear of his life. Though she has been placed under arrest, she has vowed to get him when she is released. True, this is a reversal of what one usually sees happen, but violence is not the exclusive province of males. We are seeing more and more of this with women. One can't know for sure what is causing this phenomenon, but I would assume it has to be at least partially due to the increases we are seeing in violence among all segments of our society, not just the so called poor and less fortunate. It's world-wide, and is not going away.

Bob C

Many women find it easier to talk to another woman when the subject is sexuality or menopause or pregnancy, according to the medical director of the all-women Montefiore Larchmont Women's Center. She adds: "It's perfectly understandable. Find me a lot of men who'll go to a female urologist for their yearly prostate exam."

Given patient preferences, is it unacceptable sexual bias for a practice with an opening to favor female aplicants? The medical director says: "That's for the lawyers to work out. All I know is that many of our patients tell us how glad they are to be able to see women, who know exactly what they're going through."

In one New Jersey ob-gyn practice a particular male physician received no raise and was later told that he would not become a shareholder in the practice. "They said that because I was male, I wasn't drawing as many patients as they'd expected." Two months later he was fired. He responded by opening his own practice, right next door -- and suing for breach of contract and sex discrimination.

Your thoughts?

I was surprised at the number of elderly men who are patients at the practice I go to. We have three women doctors who are also young wives and mothers. They are very good listeners and compassionate people. Is the listening part of the success of their practice?

There are no male doctors in this Practice.

Carolyn

I guess I must move on from this forum. It seems no matter how I express myself there is no understanding of the importance of the feminine view. There are only so many ways to express our abuse and upon reading the exposuers of the unfairness of the female point of view is to command too much wringing emotion.

Cathy:--You have contributed much to this forum. Your leaving would be a loss. We are a discussion group which means that we hold discussions. And a discussion always holds more than one point of view. What we try to do here is not to "prove" who is right or wrong or which point of view is correct. What we do is exchange our thoughts and, in the process, each of us gains.

I don't know if you have had an opportunity to read each posting but I have seen a number of people, including you, who have emphasized the "importance of the feminine view."

Robby

Your post in this area reminds me with tears in my eyes of advising the teenagers in my high school who were pregnant and were having their baby because it was the only time they had experienced love they said. This was a mixed group of unwed mothers, and mothers to be.

That is awful.

Jere, I have heard that same emotion expressed over and over again. However, I do think it is typical teenage angst to feel unloved, at least for Some time during adolescence. I think it is what we used to call "a phase."

My own children expressed some of this, each in their own way. Then my granddaughters went through it. Six have emerged unscathed, but there are days when we would consider the first taker for our 16 year old! Oh, I get so sick of that "Nobody loves me" routine. It really translates to "Nobody understands me", which is partially true and partially untrue. This, too, will pass.

Of course, there IS truly the heartbreak of kids who Are Not loved. I can hardly bear to contemplate the truth of this, it is so awful. But for the most part, I think the "nobody loves me" is an attempt to avoid personal responsibility.

Oh, and our 16 year old is not Really up for grabs. We are just marking off the days until she is about 18 or 19 and suddenly does the turnabout we are so used to.

Roberto, you are correct. I can affirm through my experience in Corrections that women are the largest growing segment of this nations prison population and possibly in the world as well. I personally believe that it is an extension of the type of society we live in today in which women are discovering that silence and non-involvement, with respect to violence, abuse, as well as other aspects of criminality they may encounter, are no longer the only options available to them, whether they are legal or not.

The dark side of equality includes the ever increasing possibility of a greater degree of exposure to the temptation of committing violence or, other illegal acts, which heretofore mostly remained within the province of the male gender. In the dispensation of justice in this area , there is very little consideration with respect to the gender of the perpetrators of criminal acts although many would consider that an arguable issue.

People Rule

Mike

Cathy: Robby states that: “You have contributed much to this forum. Your leaving would be a loss. We are a discussion group which means that we hold discussions. And a discussion always holds more than one point of view. What we try to do here is not to "prove" who is right or wrong or which point of view is correct. What we do is exchange our thoughts and, in the process, each of us gains.”

With full deference to our discussion leader, I would add: “I couldn’t have said it better!” To my mind your leaving would be a loss because of the passionate eloquence of your words. There are those participating in this discussion who are able to wield the force of impact in what they have to say, but not many who can manage, as you do, to make the readers of your posts sense the depths of feeling and emotion which have obviously been stirred in your heart on the importance of the feminine view.

It may well be that the response to your stated views are not what you would have preferred to see. But that will never change the fact that your insight and opinions on the matters discussed actually do reflect what many of us feel but have not bothered to take the time to respond.

As Robby is well aware, I have often found myself in that same position on a number of occasions. I also made the decision to leave these discussions for reasons not unlike yours. But in the end, and after a considerable amount of introspective thinking, I realized that what I had to say and to whom I wanted to say it, was more important, at least to me, than the reaction or lack thereof, from other participants in the various discussions I have participated in.

Stick with us Cathy! We may have our problems, warts and all, but what you have to say is indeed important to all of us. Please remember that!

People Rule!

Mike

Well said, Mike, about Cathy's input.

I want to understnd better what you wrote in your last post, Cathy. I've read it several times, but this time, I'd rather have more information instead of just think I know what you're saying. I, too, think a woman's point of view is important. But, I suspect you're saying more than that and I'm not sure what. Would you indulge me and explain further?

Like Mike wrote, I, too, have gone through a few times already (in 2 1/2 years) of thinking, that's it, I'm outta here. Nobody's listening. Nobody's responding.

You know what? One of the reasons I haven't given up is that I keep running into admissions from others that they nearly quit, that they felt unheard. Finally, it hit me that this reaction is quite common and I think the format is partly to blame....we don't see or hear the others' responses when they read our posts. You don't know when I shake my head yes in agreement, or when I chuckle, or when I talk to the monitor screen under my breath, "wow."

So, we miss body language and other natural, physical feedback. Even knowing that, there are still days when I'm so disappointed when a post that I worked on so long just sat there by its lonesome, no answers. My "taking it personally" has faded quite a bit, though.

Someone mentioned not too long ago, when this very subject was being discussed, that asking a question is a good way to insure answers. It would have to be open ended, though, not a yes/no question. ("What did the rest of you think it meant when Jack told her that money was not an issue?")

If part of what you're saying is that your point of view isn't respected----ahhh, that's tougher. We can say the words "everyone is entitled to their opinions" and that agreement isn't necessary, but it sure does feel good to be acknowledged or agreed with, doesn't it? I guess we all need that. What helps me cope with that kind of need is knowing that one or two people (whom I've heard from over and over) will know what I'm saying and understand me to a T. That helps a lot.

Betty

Total agreement with all the respondents to your message re leaving us. Don't. I am a little concerned when I continually see us trying to correct ills that have been hundreds or thousands of years in the making overnight.

Last Fall the House of Representatives ovewhelmingly approved a wide-ranging measure that toughens laws against the trafficking of women and children for prostitution and sweatshop labor and helps states and localities fight domestic violence. The vote was 371 to 1, with only a South Carolina Representative voting "no" because it increased federal spending.

Violators can be sentenced to prison for 20 years to life, depending on the severity of the crime. They can also be forced to make full restitution to their victims, paying them the salary they would have been due for their months or years of involuntary service.

The bill also included strong protection and aid for the women or children who are brought to the United States and held in bondage. Often, they are arrested and deported when discovered, since they are not legal residents of the United States. Said a Kansas Senator: "We punish the person for the act of being trafficked."

Robby

CATHY. Hang in there. I have never before directly responded to your posts, but that does not mean I have not read them. Rest assured that I, like others here, read all posts with interest. Perhaps it is impolite of us not to respond in person to all posts, but the impracticalities (sp?) are surely clear. You have not responded to my occasional posts, but I do not critisize you for that. Please keep posting-- Trevor.

CATHY - may I also join in reassuring you that the lack of response to your direct posts is truly not a reflection on whether your comments are read/considered seriously. As one who has posted often throughout the numerous discussions offered in SN and also experienced total silence in response to my comments, I encourage you to consider that an online discussion like this one (and the others) is so dissimilar to a face-to-face or chat session as to require a bit more patience. Additionally, there are so MANY comments offered, ranging from the extremely well focused to those of more general nature and, of course, the more emotional ones as well. The very diversity and number of the comments may often work against a direct response to one of your posts. I don't mean to defend the action (or lack thereof) of any of the other posters, only to mention that I have also experienced the silence of no response. If your interest is drawn to this discussion, then continue to make your contributions with the knowledge that your comments are read by thoughtful readers.

Women don't seem to be inclined to worry much about being put down in my family. I had been college faculty for 25 years, (and worked from the time that my youngest was a year-old child), my sister a navy nurse through the Vietnam era, my daughter a professional refugee camp facilitator, my other daughter a medical doctor in Germany, my niece an architect for the federal government, a niece that is a computer engineer and all of us but the computer engineer with marriages and children. You just get out and get going and do it and not worry about society's role for women and all of that.

Do you see any difference between the status of married women today and those who lived in America 170 years ago? For example, do any of the four quotes by deTocqueville above related to women have any relevancy to attitudes toward women today?

Robby

What "dangers" do you suppose deT was referring to in his quotes above?

Robby

As is our practice in this forum, we continually look out across America to see what what face is being presented to us and this week the face is not pleasant. In city after city and in county after county across the nation -- just this week alone -- there has been an increase of students shooting teachers and other students and other young people making serious threats to finish what the students have not completed.

Alexis deTocqueville said 170 years ago "In the Middle Ages, when it was more difficult to reach offenders, the judges inflicted frightful punishments on the few who were arrested but this did not diminish the number of crimes. It has since been discovered that when justice is more certain and more mild, it is more efficacious."

This past week a boy who was 12 years old when he killed a 6-year old girl was prosecuted as an adult and was sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole. Just what is going on in America? Do we truly understand? And are we taking the proper steps to correct such actions?

Your thoughts, please.

Robby

"Do we truly understand? And are we taking the proper steps to correct such action?"

I can only ask in return, just exactly what are the proper steps? It is very difficult to let one's head rule, instead of emotion, when it comes to such vile and unspeakable crimes. Here is a twelve-year old boy, who weighs about 150 pounds, attacking in a most vicious manner a six-year old girl, who weighs perhaps 45 pounds. Despite her screams of agony, the boy's mother ignores them, and the boy proceeds to almost tear this little girl apart.

Before trial his mother is given the choice of allowing the boy to plead guilty to a lesser crime, which would result in a sentence of perhaps three years for the boy, but turns down the offer. She is sure her little darling is going to be acquited. Well, it turns out otherwise, and now there are outraged cries at this horrendous sentence.

Intellectually I am sure those who are horrified at the sentence are correct, but at least for me, and I am sure this is the case with many others, I am so offended by the obviously deliberate cruelty of the boy, and also the obvious failure of the boy's mother to even express sorrow at the little girl's death, that I am unable to answer Robby's questions. Of course this doesn't solve a nationwide problem, and I wonder if there is even a way of ever solving it. We do live in very troubled times.

Bob C

"It has since been discovered that when justice is more certain and more mild, it is more efficacious."

Today's society is so bizarre. The criminal element is almost more mental problems rather than criminal sometimes. We need to deal with love, understanding rather than harshness sounds like what deTocqueville means.

Linda

Linda:--Do you believe that more "love and understanding" could lead to less of these "bizarre" student problems?

Robby

Well, we can't just carry guns and whack people if they don't behave.

The 70's seemed to be a time we went into a "touchy-feely" interlude "warm fuzzies," etc. I suppose it had some value, but was overdone and pretty much discarded. I think of prison guards and how tough they must be. Although they have to be tough. Some of the inmates are very cruel and dangerous.

My answer Robby: I don't know. Theoretically, yes. But in actuality it has to have some benefit and then make it grow from there. We can't continue like this.

Linda

Linda:--I don't know either. And it appears that most of America doesn't know. But there just has to be an answer, doesn't there? Does the answer lie with the parents? I don't know the average age of those on the Senior Net but are these students the age of our grandchildren? Are our children neglecting their responsibilities towrd their children?

Robby

I think the Mother should be punished as well as the child since she knew something was going on that was out of order.

I think too much is blamed on "mental problems" today. I think more respect should be taught as well as maybe a little harsher discipline. I don't mean beat the child today but a swat on the backside never hurt me and most of my generation. Schools have no authority today. "Touch my child and I will sue'"!!

Parents are afraid of their children. Instead of giving them choices in life to choose from, the children are allowed to do as they see fit. Who are the bosses in the home? QUIT THROWING THINGS AT ME.....

Yes, the threat of lawsuits affects everyone. Lawyers have put all of us in a vice no matter where we are. If someone drinks a cup of coffee that is too hot there can be a law suit.

Parents, grandparents need to keep tabs on these kids and be home and available more. Love and understanding at home will work wonders! That's a start!

Linda

Martex:--When you say: "Parents are afraid of their children," do you mean physically?

Robby

Don't blame lawyers for court cases that come out of the contingency fee form of billing. Just change the law for billing and you have solved the problem. You know what happens with contingency fee billing, so stop it. Problem solved.

)

Yes, I think in some cases parents are afraid of their children. They lost control when the children were small and when the "child" is a teenager they are running the household. I have seen parents that are afraid of their children!! They are afraid the children will turn on them, possible accuse them of being unfit parents, etc. You can get arrested now because of children calling the police. All because parents were so afraid when the children were small to say, "no". Goodness!! it would harm the poor little child's psyche.

I never worried about my children "hating me" when they were small. I figured they would get over it by the time they matured. They did.

Just the other day, there was a news program on the overuse of ritalin in this country. How come we have so many children that need this drug now? I also talked to a lady at the hospital the other day that has one grandchild, age 7, who is violent. Blamed it on brain chemicals. Of course, he was on ritalin to regulate his defective brain chemicals. I would love to be a little lurker in the household to see who is in control there. She sounded afraid of him and she was not old and feeble. haha.

Kids are left to their own devices today. Parents don't want to be bothered. It is more important keeping up with the Jones'.

I am very upset about what is happening to our children and grandchildren. why are they so unhappy? they have everything(answer) but nothing means anything to them. I still feel that the tv is one of the biggest reasons for this mess we are in. the violence is never real to the kids minds because on tv everyone is still alive after a shooting and the disrespect to friends and family is considered cutsy and funny example shows like Rosanne and similar ones had the kids always smarting off, something you and I did not do because we just knew better. My parents didn't believe in spankings and whippings but they had different ways of making me know what I was doing was not acceptable but they always showed love no matter what. I know that nowadays moms have to work but that too I believe is the breakdown of the American family and we will have to change things for our future kids or what will happen I don't know. sorry I didn't mean to preach but this is my opinion. Shirley T.

The state, in Canada and the US, both base their tax base on both parents working.

More children are in care from a very early age.

The state allows for frivolous claims of abuse without much more than words. Sometimes parents make this up too. The state then takes action. They have to because so many children and women are abused. Sometimes the mother is the abuser.

There is acceptance of two kinds of justice and the kids see it. One law for the powerful and one for the average Joe. We are guilty if we accept this because the guy has a nice smile or is a great sportsperson.

We force kids to be little sausages. They must conform and be like others. We feel a special thrill if the kid is a great sports person but hold contempt for the one who is very bright and call them names such as nerd.

It takes two salaries, or what's left of it after the taxman, to live in a safe area. It takes forever to get home to be with the kids. What do they do? They go to the Mall and hang out or play on the puter.

Violence is seen on TV every night as well as perversion. It is the "good stuff." The more the violence and horrid behaviour the larger the viewer numbers. The same goes for video games.

Lack of gun control that works.

There are hundreds of reasons why this is happening in the US of A. I just hope it doesn't come here. Somehow i think it will.

sat:--Welcome to our discussion group!

sat says:--"nowadays moms have to work but that too I believe is the breakdown of the American family."Do the rest of you believe that if families were back to having one earner that the current shooting problems would be diminished?

Robby

In the case of the 12-year old boy killing the 6-year old girl, the prosecutor told the jury that the girl's death was no accident. He said that the boy wanted to get rid of her because he had a crush on her mother. The mother testified that when she told him that her daughter was dead, he shrugged and rolled his eyes. The next day he asked her if he could live with her and have the girl's toys.

Robby

I believe that every Mother in the world should stay home with their children until the children go off to school and then the mother should have hours of work that let her be home when her children get there.

How can they do this? Quit worrying about keeping up with the Jones'! Got to have everything in the world right now. Did we get everything when we first got married? Heavens no!! We waited. It is not so bad. Possessions do not make you happy.

Ask the kids that have rooms like ToysRUs what they would rather have.....a room full of possessions or more time with their parents.

One parent should be about with the child. I don't think there is magic in it always being the Mom.

It takes money to live in a safe community with good schools. To get to the job you need at least one car. To pay for all of the expected things a child "must" be in they require money. All in all, i'd say i feel sorry for parents and children.

Robby, any child 14 or under should be in treatment if they do something wrong or something unbelievably wrong.

What little boy has not been in love with his teacher, neighbour or other older female figure? I think it pretty normal. What wasn't normal was the 12 year old's inability to empathize. This was the root of the problem, not the fact that he was in love with her mother.

After age 14 i think a child has the ability to reason and therefore i hold them culpable to a far greater extent. After 18 they are men or women and should be treated as such.

I wish we incarcerated less and treated more, for minor crimes. These folks get out and they come out worse than when they went in.

I can think of a woman here who will soon get out of prison. She admits to still having violent sexual feelings. One more year to go until release unless something is done to desigate her a dangerous offender. Scares the bejebers out of me and our community.

In these unusual cases, how firmly should the law be followed? In the case being discussed, the prosecution invoked a florida child-abuse law under which the jury did not have to conclude taht the boy had meant to kill, only that his actions were intentional and abusive. The boy's lawyer argued that that law should not have applied to this case.

Do you see deTocqueville's comment above beginning "Lawyers are attached..." as relevant to this situation?

Robby

Beats me, i don't even understand what he said.

"the prosecution invoked a florida child-abuse law under which the jury did not have to conclude taht the boy had meant to kill, only that his actions were intentional and abusive."

Obviously the boy's actions were intentional and abusive. Did he mean to kill the child? Was he even capable of thought that was empythetic? Seems to me he wasn't. I have no idea where this leads me, except that this child is now in an adult prison. Have we thought about that? Does he deserve the treatment he is going to get in there? Should he not be in treatment as well as jail? This whole case smells.

Here in Texas, one of the most exclusive areas is rampant with heroin use by teenagers.. No 1 in the nation. With the right parents, a child might be better off in Harlem.

The only reason I said Mother was because most men earn more than women so it is logical for the mother to be the home person. Besides, if most men are like my late husband was, the children would be taking care of him. LOL.

Idris:--I am understanding deTocqueville as having said, in effect, that lawyers believe firmly in authority to maintain public order and pay no attention to, for example, where mental illness might be an element.

Robby

According to research conducted at Wake Forest University, adolescents are not likely to engage in violence if social learning from exposure to violence does not occur. Violence was defined as participating in five different types including -- participating in a physical fight which resulted in seeking medical attention, attacking someone with a weapon, using a weapon to force or get money or things from someone, carrying a concealed firearm, and carrying another weapon such as a razor or knife.

The research involved 11-and 12-year olds, living in or around public housing. Only 1.4 percent of the students had NOT witnessed or been the victim of any violence and 54.1 percent of all students reported witnessing or being the victim of between one and 15 acts of violence.

Robby

Well, authority is sure not doing its job, is it.

Robby, we now have child armies and all manner of brutaility in this world. We are raising children all over this world who are victums of, or are perpetrators of violence. What do we really expect will come out of this, nice kids?

Do you remember the chapter in "Who Has Seen the Wind" where the boys go out to slug Prairie Dogs? Same idea. One of the boys was just old enough to have empathy and turned from it in horror. The year before he did it and it didn't bother him. He had reached the age finally where he understood what pain he was causing.

We see pain around us all the time and turn a blind eye. The news is now entertainment and we simply accept what washes over us.

I get your point Martex. My son and his wife will be co-parenting my soon to be grandchild. I can hardly wait to see how this is going to work out. Maybe great!

)

Co-parenting a child. Good luck. I am sure that Grandma will be a loving influence, too...

Not from 4,000 miles away, Martex. The will have a webcam so at least i can see the baby.

Distance of grandparents, absent parents, violent neighbourhoods, disgusting TV shows, violent games, loneliness, not fitting in and the list goes on. No wonder kids have such a hard time growing up these days. Then we turn around and blame the victum. Shame on us.

Very true words, Idris.

Sooooooooo, what do we do about it? What can we do about it? If we know the problem is complex where to we start?

In ten years this will be a Canadian problem too. We don't have guns coming out of our wazoo but we have many of the same problems. Everytime something like this happens in your country, we get all in a tizzy and want action. But what action? Where do we start?

Can part of it be flex hours for parents at their place of work? An end or trimming back of the consumer society? Banning ugly video games from young children? How do we do that?

Do we teach people to respect each other's differences? Do we make sure our schools don't become war zones? Do we really seriously tackle the drug problem? What do we do?

I like this quote better than the "Lawyers are attached..."

""My aim has been to show, by the example of America, that laws, and especially manners, may allow a democratic people to remain free."

I had a meeting at school today. Before going in I stopped in my classroom to drop off my books and papers for tomorrow's class. In the hall was a boy I had 5 years ago who now goes to another school.

He was telling me things he'd made with lego and some friends had made. Then he told me that last Friday there were two gangs at his school who were going to have a fight. There were four squad cars and lots of police on foot. Sounded like a war zone as there was a boy there with 4 guns - one of which was a shotgun. They were not loaded. Another boy had all the ammunition for the guns and 2 other boys were carrying other tools of the trade which I don't remember what he said. I just kept seeing my former First Grader telling me this bizarre tale. I thought later "...and we are teaching them Math and Reading and Writing for THIS?"

He said another thing. He said schools are less safe now than before Columbine.

He's only a 6th grader, for goodness sake! And he's a sweet young man. This should not be! It is terrible!

Get the economy under control so moms don't have to work. Get grandparents to help raise the kids - - aunts, uncles. Don't use day care. At places like that the kids tend to get "different." Like the kids in The Lord of the Flies. They get clique-ish.

Linda [floundering]

It takes a village to raise a child.....

As I view the messages on this board concerning the causes of violence in today’s schools, I am somewhat dismayed at what appears to be a lack of realization concerning the basic how and why of where the problems came from and why they continue to grow without any visible signs of abatement. There are some inescapable truths lying beneath the surface which, I feel, are being overlooked.

Collectively, the major problems, in my view, are: a lack of communication with and between the nations’ children of all ages particularly with respect to peer pressure; the scourge and contamination of violence, blood and gore as depicted and displayed in every media and which are specifically designed to satisfy an industry with a lack of conscience but with no lack of an insatiable lust for profit; the frustrations and misery of many children being raised in single parent and dysfunctional families and in those families that have been deluded into believing that we are living in the brightest and best of times; and the burning desire of countless splinter groups determined to further their individual causes by hanging there perceived problems on the body politic of bloody school violence.

Have I missed anybody? Probably, but these will have to do as starters!

In case some of you are wondering why I have not included “guns” as a causative problem, it is simply because “guns” as a provocative cause pales in comparison and would, in fact, not even exist as a problem if some meaningful solutions could hopefully be achieved in the other areas mentioned.

Why is not more attention being paid to the fact that belonging and being acceptable to a group of other children is so extremely important to kids of any age group and educational level? That is a perfectly natural attitude and desire and is clearly manifest even in the animal world among all species. It is a value which is instinctive in every child and should, but is not, being nurtured adequately by caregivers of those children be they parents or teachers.

I would also add, that it should be nurtured as well by the school friends and acquaintances of all children especially towards those who are obviously not as out-going or are inhibited by what they may deem to be an unacceptable physical appearance such as being skinny, obese, short or perhaps not athletic or pretty enough!

If children can be made to fully comprehend that their perceived dislike of other students may be based on nothing that is real and meaningful in their day-to-day relationships and may cause an aura of hurt in the victims that only children can really understand, than half the battle of reducing school violence has been won.

Papers on this subject, written by students, as well as mandatory class discussions and motivational courses, should be directed towards every student’s awakening awareness of why they very often develop total apathy or intense dislike for other students. That is a reality that must be recognized as the keystone of the problem. Peer non-acceptance, particularly to a child of school age, can be devastating no matter what strata of society they and their families happen to be a part of.

Every major instance of school violence that I have read, inevitably mentions the fact of rejection or harassment of “picked on” students, causing such fear, anxiety and frustration that it eventually results in bombing threats, guns, or other weapons being bought to school by students who feel the need to have some means of protection available to them where there are no parents or siblings to protect them from being hurt by other students. That is the basic taproot of the tree of violence currently escalating in almost all of our school systems nationwide. The highest priority of corrective action should be directed there rather than in installing metal detectors, or God help us, arming teachers.

People Rule!

Mike

I have been a believer in separate sites for recreation for kids and young adults with professionally trained leaders - I believe in 24 hour sites , so that young adults can be served - there has been a trend away from professional recreation in most communities - this is not a panacea but I feel it is a step in the right direction .

I know as a youth in San Diego CA I could participate in everything from checkers to badminton in one of many sites that operated to 10 PM at night - We learned the skills and cooperation necessary for the many activities that we participated in - I would hope in the future that recreation is recognized as a source of coming together for youth - I would hope that it would be heavily subsidized at the federal level so that communities cannot beat it out of the budget.

Mike has written a detailed well-thought out comment on what he sees as the cause (or at least one of the major causes) of school violence. If I understand him correctly, it is an ignoring by teachers and others in power of the "rejection or harassment of 'picked on' students" which eventually "results in bombing threats, guns, or other weapons being brought to schools" by the picked-on students who feel the need to be "protected."

Mike calls our attention to the importance children attribute to "belonging" and that this should be especially nurtured in the case of those children "who are obviously not as out-going or are inhibited." A partial solution he suggests is "mandatory class discussions and motivational courses" helping students to understand why some pupils dislike others or are apathetic toward them.

Any participants here who know of such discussions being held in the school near them? Does this relate to deTocqueville's remark, called to our attention by Linda, that "law, and especially manners, may allow a democratic people to remain free."

Ol Imp emphasizes the importance of learning cooperation in recreation and would like to see more 24-hour sites under the guidance of professionally trained leaders.

Robby

In the Wake Forest University research, it was found that several variables may increase the likelihood that a student would participate in a violent act. In addition to exposure to violence, they include:

1 - Multiple substance usage
2 - Interest in a gang
3 - Cigarette smoking
4 - Male gender
5 - Symptoms of depression.

If you had to choose just one, which one would you choose?

Robby

Well gosh! I thought i covered acceptance of others, pier group pressure and violence in an earlier post. Guess i was not clear enough or no one bothered to read what i said.

Acceptance of others is part of our school system because we are such a multicultural nation. That is acceptance of other's colour, race and creed. I would point out that nowhere is acceptance of brightness or smallness covered. No one seems to think "brightness" is covered. These are the "nerds" and everyone hold them outside of the "acceptables." Society does not treat these children very well and i think we all know it. As most children are well behaved in our society we are really trying to figure out what causes the odd one to do something terrible.

From what i know of your school systems you already have some schools that are like armed camps. You have to do something about all of those guns laying around and are too easy for children to get at. Then again maybe you don't really want to do that.

If you folks don't want to read my posts, that's fine. I am an outsider here so can understand why you don't. Maybe you just want to talk among yourselves. The truth is, there are other realities out here in other democracies.

Why is it that a BBC reporter noted that many of the students at the school went home to wash their hair and change clothing for the reporters? What was it that made the children want to know who was or was not a "paying reporter?"

Idris:--Yes, you did mention acceptance of others in an earlier post. We acknowledged that and sometimes a number of us agree on our perceptions. And that's good. We don't always have to disagree.

Regarding your comment, "If you folks don't want to read my posts, that's fine. I am an outsider here so can understand why you don't." -- you had me fooled. We regulars here had always considered you an "insider", if there is such a thing in this discussion group. I believe, Idris, that you sometimes say this because you are Canadian and the name of deTocqueville's book is "Democracy in America." But, as the title of this forum implies, we are about all democracies, not just the United States.

Robby

If you have a problem, which has many solutions then you have to look outside your borders to see why other first world nations don't have the problems you have. What is it that is different in these societies?

The horrible truth is that every time something happens in the US of A and gets world wide attention, it puts other first world societies at risk of the same thing happening there. There is almost an acceptance of a new rung on the horror ladder. If there is really no effort or change in what causes these problems then what we see now will only be the beginning. That is the nature of things.

Think about this, the kids that were at that school went home to wash their hair and change their clothes for the cameras. This was not a truly tramatic thing to them. It was an event!

According to columnist Bob Herbert, "Gun violence in America is as common as the sunrise. We are addicted to gun violence. We celebrate it, romanticize it, eroticize it. Above all, we market it -- through movies, videos, television, radio, books, magazines and newspapers. Think 'Gunsmoke.' Think 'The Godfather.' Think 'Gangsta rap.'"

Handgun Control, a lobbying organization in Washington tells us that in 1996, handguns were used to murder

1 - 2 people in New Zealand
2 - 15 in Japan
3 - 30 in Great Britain
4 - 106 in Canada
5 - 213 in Germany
6 - 9,390 in the United States.

Robby

Thanks for the stats Robby. I think he says it well and makes the point of most folks in other countries. We see you as a very violent society and really won't want to change. It is part of your culture and i don't think you are about to give up your guns and your love of the culture it has spawned.

You are moving your border guards to our side of the border when the new bridge at Niagara Falls is finished. Our border guards do NOT wear guns but yours do. I am totally disgusted at this turn of events.

There have always been children that have been alienated by other children. You have just met one...me!! I went to a fairly wealthy high school and I wasn't rich. I was a "late bloomer" and a bit of a nerd. However, I never had thoughts of blowing anyone away. That is not good enough reason, in my opinion. Besides, do you think most kids today are interested in motivational discussions? I don't think so. You can hardly get them to read a book, what with the availability of video games, televsion, etc.

Excuse me, Idris, but I am really the new kid on the block and I don't have the education that most of you have, but I do believe that Canada is a part of America.

About guns...I don't have a need for one and I don't think most people do.

I agree with you Martex. Many children who are outsiders are great kids and never cause a problem. We have a few that kill. What is different about them? What is it in a society that makes them think they will get some guns from Dad and blow some other kids to smitherines? What is it in the culture that allows this thinking? You just have to look around and open your ears to see what's wrong. There is a culture of violence. A love of guns. An acceptance of dealing with problems through violence. Just listening to the music they like tells you something has run amok. For most kids this is just "let off steam" stuff but for others it effects them enough to make them think they can get even and kill the enemy.

Do we really think kids don't know that the society allows slavery once again on their shores? This is but one of the things they know to be true about their society. How much empathy do we have that we allow it? Are we all that guiltless in this whole mess?

My absence from this forum sounded like a powty child that can't take the in-attention of posters of this forum. I did not mean my objections to sound like a spoiled child. I meant, and still do, that the subject of inequality is going to be forever with us, and why bother to carry on the same worn out arguments? I truly think open rebellion is the only recourse for some of us.

I know, as most women do, how it feels to be powerless; could that not be the reason young people commit such outrageous ways of getting people's attention. Sometimes "SHOCK" is the only tool groupsdesperate peoples have to use. I, in no way, advocate and have sympathy with young adolescents taking such radical action as gangster tactics as indiscriminate shooting of guns. This tactic always fails! Why do they not use boycotting the offending perpetrators? The very effective protests of the young people of the sixties did change society in America. It took this very active generation of young people to change American's conscience about an unjust war in Vietnam and the blind approval of their elders.

Last but not least I would like to thank those posters that urged me not pull out. "Thanks" You guys are a great bunch of articulate, wise old thinkers I have missed. Sorry about the "old"!

Martex:--Looking back at yourself as a "late bloomer and bit of a nerd," did you have any adults that took you under their wing and nurtured you in one way or another? Were you truly "alienated?"

As regards Martex' comment that "I am really the new kid on the block," may I encourage every participant in this forum to scout out other Senior Netters and invite them here? To have a truly scintillating conversation, we need all the "new kids" we can get.

Robby

Cathy how do a bunch of "nerds" organize themselves? I would agree your approach is much better than violence. How do "the nerds united" state their case when the schools are all gung-ho on the "sporty" types with the big muscles and university scholarships awaiting them? I think it is up to us to start believing that the "nerds" are the great kids and not the ones with muscles and team games that are made so much of. There is something very wrong with the idolization of sports folks.

"I truly think open rebellion is the only recourse for some of us. Sometimes "SHOCK" is the only tool desperate people have to use."

What methods would you suggest these alienated students use to gain attention, Cathy?

Robby

As a Late Blooming Nerd, I did have a couple of teachers that must have seen my unhappiness and took me under their wings. I will never forget them.

Welcome back, Cathy. You are a great asset here. None of us believe wholly in what the next person says, but I think we all respect your right to say it.

I would urge young people to use their rights. To use the power of communication to gather the strength to state their case! Young people very often see the "wrongs" of society better than the leaders. They should empower their objections with clearly stated reasons and use the power of the internet to propagantize their objections. Why have not the young so called "malcontents" not used the tool of the internet more?

I feel the generation of the 60's was the first ones to truly affect national policy. They should be proud. The thinkers of that generation were able to gather strength for the "Cause" by being very articulate and with great zest made their protests.

Unless I am misunderstanding the string of thought here, I am seeing a most interesting paradox -- the young people are the problem and the young people are the solution. I believe Mike said that one of the problems was a "lack of communication with and between the nations' children of all ages, particularly with respect to peer pressure."

Robby

Yes, but i would say the young people have the problem and the young people can point the way to the solution.

Maybe they need to carry placards on their websites that hit us full in the face with what we have let our societies become.

Martex,you have said it better than I could about moms being home and not having to have everything the other people have, our generation waited to pay for what we wanted with cash and the kids always had a parent around to talk to. sometimes change is not always the best. Shirley T.

I feel strongly about it. You can always find a way to stay home with your children (unless you are a single parent) if you are willing to put your children before possessions.

Also, A family that eats dinner together and goes to church together has a start on producting children that are caring adults. Children are feeling like "useless baggage" the way society is becoming.

I may have read your remarks all wrong, but it seems to me you again have put all of the obligations for youths' problems back on the mother. I resent that assumption. Quality of child rearing has always and, I hope, will always center on genuine love of the child by the parent. If a child has throughly been assured that he is loved it does not call for a sacrifice of being always present at home. Some of the most outrageous neglects of children have come from mothers that are unhappy in the home.

It is a very confused dilemma of what causes youth's re bellion, but I think our progress as a people depend on youth's rebellion of what it sees as unfair and unjust. I truly believe in the power of love and love is always patient and listens.

Too often we think the values of the past are to be defended by the youth of the present. I don't think "Nature" believes that. I think it is natures way that we move on with new thinking and examine continuesly what fairness and justice is. I don't believe that Nature just wants to adhere to the past in our building of the future. I feel we must learn our mistakes and not repeat them.

HI Cathy, you are right about a child being strong if they have the love of a parent or both parents, what I'm seeing too much of and it scares me is parents that are single and trying to find a life for themselves leaving the kids home alone at night . the divorce rate is horrendous and the single parent feels that life is passing them by so they go out at night and where does that leave our kids. also we all see a lot of throw away kids that no one wants or are made to feel they are in the way,and the news on tv fortifys that every day, I wish there was a answer for this problem but I don't see any thing that can turn this around except for all of us to change our morals go back to family basics and religion and try to help out where we can. Shirley T.

Takes "parents" (since you don't like my use of Mother) that puts their careers on the back burner. If they can't do that, maybe they shouldn't have children. I can't say I was all that happy staying at home, either, but I had children and I sure found many a ways to make myself happy. Maybe this society is too much of a "Me" society. I see it all the time just in the way people don't have any regard for their fellow man at the grocery store. They make no effort to keep their darn carts over to the side so you can get by. LOL.

Personally, I don't see what the peace movement in the 60's did for anyone or anything. All I saw was a lot of drug use, naked people, and sex in public on the news. Now jump on me, Cathy. hahahah.

I was divorced in 1967. That was the gateway to the protest of the late 60's and 70's.

I had two children that were in the middle 70's on the U. Of I campus. They, of course, got caught up in the campus unrest at that time. They were caught in the dragnet that happened often that police would make at these demonstrations.

They both knew that I loved them and was very much on to what they were doing. They in explaining to me their behavior convinced me they were, indeed, protesting legitimate causes. Today both of my daughters are leading lives that are productive, but determined not to fall in with conventional thinking if it involves some subject of social cause they see as unjust. How can I argue with that?

By the way, I was far too busy in the 60's and 70's to be caught up in trivial "wants"; I was just trying to keep a roof on our heads and food in our stomachs. I managed that, and have no desire to apoligize to anyone my sympathy for the protests of the 70's. I feel progress was made and the social climate of our times was improved, but there is much more to be done.

So as we share thoughts and try to home in on the immediate solution to the "shooting in schools" problem, please help this befuddled forum facilitator to see where we stand.

1 - Legal solution -- prosecute immediately all those who shoot, some of them as adults, and jail them accordingly.
2 - Mental health solution -- Hospitalize or give regular outpatient treatment immediately to those who have brought violence to the school.
3 - School solution -- Start immediate teacher training to recognize problem students, and use preventive and/or remedial methods.
4 - Family solution -- Prosecute immediately and penalize parents of student shooters.

deTocqueville spoke about law, education, health, and families. What do you suppose he might have said?

Robby

Did you notice the difference in how Federal Politicians handled this shooting spree as compared to Columbine?

In the Columbine horror they all got up and demanded changes. Made a really big deal out of it and then let the whole thing die. This time it wasn't even worth having their face on the evening news.

Why is it that we do not demand that children have the same sense of security in their schools that we demand in the workplace?

The results of research by the Oregon Research Institute show that approximately 80 percent (REPEAT 80 PERCENT) of depressed teenagers do not get necessary psychiatric medical treatment. Said two psychiatrists in an editorial in the American Journal of Psychiatry: "The fact that only 20 percent of depressed adolescents seen as part of this highly-structured, longitudinal follow-up study received some form of tratment strongly suggests that in community settings, the adolescent window of therapeutic opportunity is more likely than not missed.

They add: "The early recognition of -- and the development of effective treatments for -- adolescent depression clearly should be a high public health priority."

Robby

No kidding!

I truly believe we live in societies that hate children..except our own. Even then i sometimes wonder.

This is a great discussion. Nothing is more important the our children. Let me add a few thoughts about what has been troubling me for a long time about the experience of children today. I think that an important way that we all learned about life was by seeing the example of the adults around us. But today, largely because of the dominance of the automobile, children do not get to see much of real life. We segregate them in schools, or day care, in safe suburban neighborhoods, in front of a television or computer. How are they going to learn about the world of work? About responsibility, about working with others, about caring for the ill, the weak etc?

Some, who come from exceptional homes, do make out ok, but many do not. All of the children are not going to be above average. Some will be below average in scholastic development, physical or social develoment. And where are the below average going to find role models that fit their ability in the segregated society of the schools?

As I think back (way back) to my own growing up years it seems to me were were not so protected. We got on our bikes and roamed the town or city. We did not need to be driven to the designated place for baseball or soccer or whatever. Vacant lots sufficed. Many of us had to work early on a farm or helping in the shop or the store. A child today is very restricted until they acquire a car. Most cannot afford the insurance when they come of age unless the parents provide.

So what of those below average kids who do not come from ideal homes? Is it inevitable that so many will wind up living on the streets selling dope or their bodies or go to prison? When I try to imagine myself in those circumstances, I am not at all surprised that some despair and act out in inappropriate ways.

I know it is trite to say "it takes a village". What village? We adults can get by without the village so we have abandoned that way of life and, I am afraid, abandoned the young at the same time.

Idris said, "Do we really think kids don't know that the society allows slavery once again on their shores? "

I'm fuzzy here. To what were you referring?

You are definitely no outsider here, Idris! You are one of the mainstays!

After Columbine I saw quite a show on TV about a school that was instituting a procedure for the students to communicate and try and solve their problems themselves with the help of student facilitators and an adult.

If a child was being harrassed or bullied or picked on he or she could to to the group and explain the problem. Then the bully or whoever would also come to this round table and they would dscuss the problem. The facilitators would help keep the exchange civil and keep a proper direction to it.

The procedure certainly looked like a mature way to deal with hurt feelings, knowledge of violent behavior, anything that might need venting or reporting. I believe there were consequences and specific guidelines for them to follow. It looked like a very workable idea. I wonder what ever happened to it.

Linda

I agree with all of you except perhaps Idris when she blames mothers or parents for what is happening today. Mothers did not invent suburbs, computers games, television violence, abuse of drugs. I agree that there are some unfit parents. I don't feel responsible for 'all' of what my children do today, even if I made some mistakes, children should learn how to deal with their imperfect past. We can't turn back the clock you know. But we can influence our grand'children by our own behaviour and loving presence, if their parents will let us do it.

SAT and Robby - yes, yes.

Robby - I have the video tape on de Tocqueville's trip to America. If anyone wants it, I will be glad to send it along. It was very interesting.

They are suppose to supply the rules. Maybe they should monitor their children more. Maybe I sound like a dictator and I probably am. I was a dictator until my children were of age and I am happy to say that "some" of my grandchildren are being raised the same way. You know what? My children love me today and I am sure they did then even thought at times they told me they hated me.

What child has the maturity to decide their own rules? I guess this is the new theory of interfering with their freedom. hahahha. Well, these little kids that are going around killing other kids sure interfered with the dead kids freedom.

Why aren't people suppose to be responsible for their children?

Eloise, i do not blame mothers for what has happened in our societies. I think mothers have taken enough blame over the years for everything from bad breath to poor school marks. I certainly don't blame them. There is more than enough blame to go around.

Hairy, there are thousands of slaves living in the US of A. There are probably quite a few in Canada too. They are from the Bosnian War zone, Thailand, China etc. They are offered jobs that are low pay but honest labour by hoods who have a hidden agenda. The slaves land and the buyers of these slaves take their passports away. They become hookers, kitchen workers etc. They stay in the state of slavery because they must pay back the money it took to get them here. It is mainly run by gangsters. The numbers grow every day. Whether we like it or not, they are slaves.

We (including me) are all posing the problems but how about the solutions?

We segregate children away from the world of work and "real life," we do not have role models for those below average, we "overprotect" our children, they don't have chores and/or jobs after school, they are restricted until they acquire a car, we no longer have a "village," the young are abandoned, the bullies and those picked on are not communicating with each other under the guidance of a facilitator, there are unfit parents, suburbs, computer games, TV violence and abuse of drugs, mothers and fathers are not doing their job - they are not "dictators" to their children, people are not responsible for their children, etc.

The whole nation is constantly repeating the problems over TV, radio, and with each other. Is there or is there not a solution? Do we in the "wise older" generation have it?

Robby

My earlier post:

So as we share thoughts and try to home in on the immediate solution to the "shooting in schools" problem, please help this befuddled forum facilitator to see where we stand.

1 - Legal solution -- prosecute immediately all those who shoot, some of them as adults, and jail them accordingly. 2 - Mental health solution -- Hospitalize or give regular outpatient treatment immediately to those who have brought violence to the school. 3 - School solution -- Start immediate teacher training to recognize problem students, and use preventive and/or remedial methods. 4 - Family solution -- Prosecute immediately and penalize parents of student shooters.

deTocqueville spoke about law, education, health, and families. What do you suppose he might have said?

Robby

Move to fix all of the things you have suggested are wrong and a few more. We can't change the world, but we can try to help to change some of the things that are wrong in our own families. We can't fix all of them but some we may be able to help a little.

You can admit to your children or grandchild what you see is wrong when the subject of these violent actions are talked about. That's how you get people to think about a problem. You have to confront the problem with thought before you can start change in motion.

Perhaps this may come as asurprise to many of you, but most schools are trying to deal with the problems of violence by training teachers how to recognize potential violennce, and how to deal with it before it happens. I have seen the results at my school, but it still takes the kids to report what they see and hear. Without them, teachers can be no more effective than anyone else.

As for those gun statistics, how many homicides were committed with rergistered weapons? A very small percentage, I'm sure. Check the rise of violent crime in England, Australia, and many of those other countries that have the strictest gun control. (We have plenty of laws, but no enforcement.)

As for the 60's generation being so great, if one were to check carefully, one would see the escalation of drugs and violence really started at that time.

It starts in the family. Set an example for your children and maybe it will spread.

I guess these are the same type of problems since mankind began. Everyone must have criticized the younger generation and the world is still spinning around.

Yesterday morning some educator said that schools are safer today than they use to be. I don't know when use to be was. I don't know if I buy that or not.

There are no precise figures, but the Coalition for Juvenile Justice in Washington, a federally financed group appointed by the nation's governors, cites estimates that 50 percent to 75 percent of teenagers in the juvenile justice system nationwide have a diagnosable mental disorder. Perhaps 15 percent to 20 percent of them suffer from a severe mental illness like manic-depression (bipolar disorder) or schizophrenia. More alarming, these numbers appear to be growing.

Robby

The presiding judge of Los Angeles County Juvenile Court said: "It is a serious national problem. In essence, we are criminalizing mental illness among young people, who through no fault of their own, have been abused or neglected by their parents, then bounce around the child dependency system, and finally, because they are untreated, their illness leads themn to act out, sometimes violently, so we lock them up in the juvenile justice system."

Robby

Robby.......

Thanks for the invite. Well folks, you all have very good ideas and some workable solutions that would work in a few (very few) cases, but I see the picture as being even more drastic and far broader than perhaps many of our citizens see it at the present. We are (in my opinion) only on the threshold of the violence we will see in our beloved nation. The match has just been struck and has yet to touch the bails of dry straw of an uncontrolled violence. We cannot unshoot the gun my friends, it has been fired and the recoil is reverberating throughout our society. We are reaping what we have sowen. How can we stop Hollywood? By what means can we prevent the open sex and uncontrolled violence our children are watching on TV and the internet? No, it can't be stopped by placing a few restrictions on individual P.C's, and the children of working families will always be the children of working families, and they will always FIND the time to not get into mischief (that's polite language for criminal activity). I have said for years that so goes Hollywood, so goes the world. Unfortunately, many, if not most young adults today are products of Hollywood. Children, students, and young men in college, are NOT taught how to respect their fellow man. Young men see women as tools for pleasure rather than a person to admire, love, respect, and care for. Marriage? What's the percentage of longivity? How many men cheat on their wives?

Let's take a peek at our massive prison system. How many prisons actually rehabilitate their inmates? They go in criminals and come out criminals. Most of them do not know how to write a (legal) check, let alone maintain a check book without overdrawing. Most of them do not know how to pay bills, save money, shop for groceries, or care for a home and family. How many do gooder judges (we call them Santa Clause judges) place hardened criminals back out onto the streets? How many rapist are turned loose to repeat their crimes? Guns ARE a problem, but NOTHING, I mean absolutely nothing can be done to rid our country of gun crimes. Now that I've covered the positives, I'll address the negatives.

PLease forgive me for coming into your forum and being so completely negative, but I personally have not witnessed a change in the criminal behavior in our society, and I have observed crime to esculate, not decrease. I have credentials that qualify me as an expert in narcotics, burglary, robbery, and theft crimes, and I am certainly NOT an expert. There is an old saying, the only expert is a dead one, because he's seen the one the others haven't. Take the young black fella that killed the little girl. His criminal behavior and acts of violence have been known since he was a small child. Why, I truly ask: Why wasn't something done in his early years? Even now the lad has shown violence in jail. Unfortunately, there are thousands like him walking the streets.

I like the soundness of Robby's approach toward seeking solutions, and people like him should never stop, but "one day" will never come.

May I come back and visit your forum?

Lee:--Good to have you with us. You are always welcome.

Lee paints a terrible (but not necessarily unrealistic) picture:--"We are only on the threshold of the violence we will see in our beloved nation We are reaping what we have sown. How many prisons actually rehabilitate their inmates? They go in criminals and come out criminals Do gooder judges place hardened criminals back out onto the streets. "One day" will never come."

I know from other forums in which Lee participates that he is retired from law enforcement. Whether or not he is correct here, I (for one) am listening to him.

Are you saying, Lee, that there is NO solution? Are you asking us to sit by and take no action? That what will be, will be? Is this what we are to do with the wonderful America that deTocqueville saw 170 years ago? And we might remind ourselves that one of the reasons that deTocqueville visited America was to observe our prison system.

Robby

EDITORIAL IN THIS MORNING'S NEW YORK TIMES

An Extreme Sentence in Florida

It is hard to recall a case with as many layers of tragedy as the murder of Tiffany Eunick by Lionel Tate. She was 6 years old in 1999 when Lionel, then 12, battered her to death. This was a horrifying crime that required a stiff but judicious penalty. Then last Friday, the youth, now 14, was sentenced to life without parole after his mother stubbornly refused to accept a plea bargain that would have carried a three-year sentence in a youth facility followed by 10 years of probation. It was an unbelievably harsh sentence to fall on one so young.

Much of the public dismay over this case has focused on two striking elements. One was the bad judgment of the mother and the defense lawyer in turning down a sentence that the prosecutor described as lenient under the circumstances. The other was the judge's imposition of the maximum sentence allowed for first-degree murder even though prosecutors were willing to see him reduce the charge.

The sentencing was made possible because of a trend in American law that began over a decade ago in response to the increasingly violent crimes of juvenile offenders. This led to a national wave of legislation in which 45 states made it easier to try offenders under 18 as adults and put them in adult jails and prisons with sentences as tough as those imposed on adults. These changes were a recognition that juvenile law as it existed before 1990 was outmoded. Clearly some crimes by some older juveniles deserve more punishment than the juvenile courts can administer.

But in this case, the offender was so young it is hard to believe there is no room for eventual growth and rehabilitation. The reaction of Florida's governor, Jeb Bush, has been measured and responsible. Mr. Bush, described by aides as troubled by the harshness of the sentence, has said he will consider a clemency petition, which may be sent to him on an expedited basis. He has requested the state corrections department to transfer Lionel to a youth facility. Mr. Bush should reinstate some version of the plea bargain and correct the awful misjudgments of a misguided mother and an overly harsh judge.

I would agree with Lee that this problem is going to get worse if something really important isn't done.

Robby, i will be more specific about my question "Why????" You wrote above...Perhaps 15 percent to 20 percent of them suffer from a severe mental illness like manic-depression (bipolar disorder) or schizophrenia. More alarming, these numbers appear to be growing.

My question is what is the basic reason for these diseases? Is it a chemical imbalance in both cases. I know there are meds for both of these problems but the patients must take their meds and be monitored. I have little understanding of either disease but did take part in a depression forum on Sypatico a few years ago, where i met a few of these folks. If there is 15-20% with these two problems then it seems to me it is cheaper to treat the illness than to incarcerate after they have committed a crime. Not to mention the pain they have caused others.

It would be interesting to look into the mother's reasons for rejecting the plea bargain. Perhaps she knows more than she is telling about the boy. Could it possibly be that she fears the boy, and knows he is a danger to her and others? This is just speculation on my part, but according to the newspapers here in Florida, the little girl was pummelled horribly, and suffered broken bones and internal injuries. It appears that the boy's actions were far beyond a few wrestling moves.

As for the editorial, i really didn't understand that being tried as an adult in your country mean you went to an adult jail. I don't believe that is the case here in Canada, but i could be wrong. I believe it just means a much longer sentence in a juvenil institution.

One thing i do know the most enlightened judicial system for dealing with young offenders is in the Province of Quebec. They are trying some very interesting stuff and seem to be making some headway with the problem. Maybe Eloise can fill us in as she lives there.

Idris:--To answer your question, research is increasingly showing that depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia - among other mental illnesses -- have a genetic component. Whenever I make an initial assessment of a new patient, I always ask about significant medical/emotional illnesses in their family. This often points to possible diagnoses in my patient.

I agree (I believe that Lee would too) that it is much less expensive to treat than to incarcerate. If memory serves me correctly, the Los Angeles prison system has been described as the largest "mental health institution" in the nation.

So, if I may be permitted to ask the same question (to which I don't have the answer), what is the solution to the school shootings?

Robby

I agree that the problems are genetic in nature. I noticed this in the depression forum on Sympatico. I thought we were really helping folks in treatment, but Wordy's folded.

First i think you have to find out who has these problems. Then you have to find out if there is money to fund treatment and if the children/parents will go along with the treatment. It isn't easy to admit you or your child has a problem as it still has a stigma for some folks. I have learned that admitting that i had clinical depression rather freeing. I am not ashamed of it anymore than i would be if i had diabetes or a broken leg. So, possibly an attitude shift might be necessary.

I have been listening to the CBC and a Dr. series on the overuse of Ritlen (?) on very young children. I often wonder if the drug is given but not followed up with proper mental care. If children have been put on this drug what portion of them will develop serious problems later because the drug is masking a larger problem. Some children really do need this drug but the program indicates that far too many children are put on it that don't necessarily need it but councelling.

I must admit some of this stuff really makes me feel depressed and i just tune out as i do threads that get depressing. I must look after my mental health first and dwelling on the glummier side of life can get to you after awhile.

Are we saying that the problem of shootings in schools is primarily a Public Health (mental illness) problem rather than a Law and Order problem?

Robby

I think a good deal of them are, Robby. I could be totally wrong but i truly think this is a large part of it.

According to "The Sentencing Project," a non-profit organization in Washington, DC: --

Our growing prison system has pushed our incarceration rate ahead of all other nations. Last Fall the United States surpassed Russia to regain its position as the nation with the highest rate of incarceration in the world.

Our rate of incarceration is 5-8 times that of Canada and nations in western Europe.

The United States has been adding to its prison population even as crime rates fall.

Women and children make up growing segments of new prisoners.

People of color comprise two-thirds of all prisoners nationally.

If deTocqueville was examining our prison system now, I wonder what he might say.

Robby

Just think about the implications of Mothers with babies being incarcerated. If she has a mental health problem and gets no help with it, she is raising a child. What does that do to the child and are we causing the child to have a better chance of having a problem because the mother gets no mental health care?

We are taking the easy way out here don't you think? If treatment were given and accepted there would be a better chance of stopping it at the Mother's generation.

We are incarcerating folks who are holding marijuana, even if not selling. Why are we doing this? We know the marijuana became a huge criminal problem when it was determined that it might put cotton farmers in trouble if hemp were accepted. Marijuana just came under the same general heading and it killed off the growing of hemp. This of course made the cotton farmers very happy but what have we done? Why put someone in prison for holding marijuana? It should be taken care of with a fine and save space in our prisons for serious crimes.

Are there more incarcerations now you have for profit prisons? We don't have those here.

Our largest growing group of inmates are First Nations People and folks from the Carribean.

We are going through the marijuana arguement in Canada too.

I am truly upset at the acceptance of our love of drugs. We, that is Americans, are the most prolific user of drugs. Why is that????? It seems easier to blame all matter of reasons other than the USA need for drugs. We are unable to deal with life and its complications without the artifical aid of drugs? I think we are there!

Why should United States be the number one user of drugs in their everyday life and not admit our needs are a shame to our nation? What is it in our society's tolerence for drugs? We, when examined, make all kinds of speculation as to the cause. Is it related to our governing system? Is it because our struggle to achieve is not met with equal justice? What is the cause of our unrest? I believe it is necessary for us to honestly admit it is a problem of all of us, not just a few.

Cathy:--Do you believe that drugs are the primary cause of the school shootings?

Robby

Cathy, what if it is the same as the few who have a problem with booze? It is a way of escaping. Escaping what is the question. Bet there are lots of reasons. I still don't think incarceration is the answer. Fines, treatment etc might be a better answer.

Besides in some areas the selling of drugs is big money in an economy that doesn't usually produce for them. They sell the drugs to the whole of society. The areas where the drugs are sold from become loaded with jobs for small fry pushers, big time hoods. The hoods drive around in big fancy cars...where else could they make this kind of money? It has become a business and will continue to be as long as there is profit in it and people who want to dull their reality.

Many folks who have depression problems self-medicate with booze or drugs. Indeed it is one of the things a Dr. looks for.

IMHP, there are no solutions. One can talk about the problems, and make a long list of what one thinks should be done, but it isn't going to happen. We are talking ideals here, not practicalities. In the real world, which is where most of us live, there are very few in our society who do more than lend lip service to what they believe. When it comes to paying for these things, you will hear nothing but hollering and complaint from most. The solution is in the pocketbook, but everyone wants it to be somebody elses, not theirs. All one hears from most of our elected representatives is tax cuts, but when you cut taxes, you have less money available to pay for the many things that the citizens of our country need.

You have the elderly who need drug coverage and medical care, the poor who need financial help, the prison population that needs rehabilitation, children who need love, guidance, and care, sick and disabled, who are in need of social services, the very rich who must have tax relief and reduction of the capital gains tax, shipping interests who need subsidies, the military that needs more and more to defend this country against imagined threats, along with increased pay for those in service, and on and on.

It's wonderful to be idealistic, but it's far better to be realistic. We live in a throw away society, and we throw away the most precious of all things, our children, whose hands hold the future. We don't need words; we need deeds. Until the country as a whole is ready, willing, and able to put their money where their mouths are, very little if anything is ever going to happen. We all know the problems, but we don't want to pay for the solutions. I think we're all on a non-drug induced impossible dream trip, from which few are going to awake. Get real, folks. Talk is free, but solutions aren't.

Bob C

It has been our experience in Ontario and a other Provinces that cutting taxes actually increases the wealth of citizens, they buy more, consolidate debt and our economy grows.

Our taxes are higher than yours because we have more social services such as universal health care. I really don't want to get myself into trouble in this thread again so i shall leave it at that. Other than to say that spending money on health care for everyone certainly helps to keep the population healthier. Health problems are detected before the problem becomes really expensive to fix. We also live longer.

Bob C says:--There are no solutions. One can talk about the problems, and make a long list of what one thinks should be done, but it isn't going to happen. We are talking ideals here, not practicalities. In the real world, which is where most of us live, there are very few in our society who do more than lend lip service to what they believe. We all know the problems, but we don't want to pay for the solutions. I think we're all on a non-drug induced impossible dream trip, from which few are going to awake. Get real, folks. Talk is free, but solutions aren't."

If, indeed, Bob is correct (and I have heard nothing here to the contrary), then it is time for us all to draw back into our shells. (I can just hear Idris saying at this point: "This is all too too depressing." And, of course it is.) According to him, we have already been suffering from the "ostrich syndrome." He says there is no solution but if I truly understand what he is saying, it is that there IS a solution but we prefer not to employ it.

WE prefer not to use the solution which is there before our eyes. And who is "WE?" And why are WE so powerless?

May I call everyone's attention to deTocqueville's three quotations above directly under his name?

Robby

Once upon a time there were 100 ostriches who decided to have a convention. They agreed to meet at a particular beach at 9 a.m. on a specific Saturday morning. At 9 a.m. 99 ostriches were present but the 100th ostrich was still not showing up. One guy finally said: "I know what. Let's all hide from him." At that, all 99 ostriches bent over and stuck their heads in the sand.

A minute or so later the 100th ostrich showed up, looked about him and said: "Where is everybody?"

Robby

I'm sorry, folks, if this is another late-breaking depressing bit of news but this forum reflects what is going on in America these days. Maybe we shouldn't be too angry at the media. Perhaps they are telling us exactly what our nation is doing.

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 12:14 p.m. ET

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- A man was arrested today at the Sacramento International Airport on suspicion of waving a gun outside an airplane maintenance building. Employees at the Cessna Citation building were evacuated but nobody was injured, said airport spokesman Gregg Weissenfluh.

No passengers in the airport's two main terminals were evacuated or in danger at any time, Weissenfluh said. The Cessna building is at the opposite end of the airport from the terminals. The man made demands but it was not immediately clear what the demands were, Weissenfluh said. It was also unclear how he got into the airport with a weapon, he said.

President Bush has decided to cut back on security measures in public housing. It is too expensive. A message to parents that now drug dealers can move back into their neighborhoods and entice their children again. What do you think of this?

Martex:--As you know from the Heading above, we refrain in this discussion group from referring to names or parties in political circles as we examine America as a democracy. There are many excellent political forums in Senior Net that deal with that.

However, I understand the context in which you ask the question and am interested in the reaction of others in this forum. Do the rest of you see a relationship between security measures in public housing and students going to schools with guns?

Robby

The same thing applies to the new immigrant with the banana wagon. He was told there was a recession coming on and he stopped buying bananas or fixing his cart. He went broke!

I want to know the answers to these problems because i live in Canada. If you don't fix your wagon, ours may soon be in the same shape. I don't want that to happen here.

How can anyone say you can't change? You are not the same as you were 100, 50, 25, 10 or 5 years ago. You have improved some things and let other things slide. So who says you can't get a little more enlightened?

What depresses me is the whiners who say all is lost and nothing can be done. You are a powerful nation and can do many things. Lord, there is no help for poor third world countries if you can't pull up your socks. They haven't given up, so why should you? Good grief, what is wrong with talking about possibilities? Don't you think that think tanks are doing exactly this with much smarter folks than we are?

Good grief!

I don't understand your housing projects, so can't comment. I'm not ignoring the question put, Martex.

Question: What the heck does the federal government have to do with Housing Projects? Funding? Isn't policing local? I'm confused.

Lou D...... Bingo, you hit the nail on the head. The mother, a state trooper, well acquainted with violence was in fact afraid of her son (my opinion), and Lou, you have insight. Last night after watching Larry King, I turned to my wife and asked: "Can you name just one (1) person we saw and heard on this broadcast that would spend just one night in the same house with that boy that would not have to sleep with either one or both eyes open?" There are untold problems with that boy and no jail will ever make him return to society a reformed man. If and when he gets out (and I believe he will), he will once again be a terror and menace to society, and will either be killed, will kill again, and most assuredly will be returned to the only place that will prevent him from hurting private citizens again. I saw zero remorse on the boy's face, and only confusion. He wasn't completely there, and is apparently too young (in his mentality) to comprehend the gravity of not only his offense, but what was happening in that court room.

Blue Knight do you have a designation called "dangerous offender" or the like. We have one here and it allows the courts to keep a person in jail forever or under treatment forever if they can't be trusted outside. Just wondering, as i don't know your system at all.

Robby my friend.......

You pose: "Are you saying, Lee, that there is NO solution? Are you asking us to sit by and take no action? That what will be, will be? Is this what we are to do with the wonderful America that deTocqueville saw 170 years ago? And we might remind ourselves that one of the reasons that deTocqueville visited America was to observe our prison system."

Actually Robby, there are solutions, but I sincerely don't believe our culture is moving in the direction that wants them bad enough to change their set. We (our society) are bent toward destruction from within. We read aout Rome, we know the results, yet we are moving in a fast pace of "I want mine, and I want it now." Most races are for winners Robby, but the race we are in will only produce losers. YES, I'm very negative regarding the future downfall of America. Geepers I wish I could see it differently Robby, but I cannot see any evidence what-so-ever that would indicate a "turn around" so-to-speak in the correction (improvement if you will) of the poverty, slum raised, and ghetto, conditions in our goood old USA. I have a true sense of it's hopeless.

OK, changes. Robby, who's going to initiate changing Hollywood and all other so-called intertainment industries? I firmly believe that should it be mandated that zero filth and violence from these sick industries were to be implimented, we would one day see a move toward change. I know this is not the forum for this next comment, but it's time to open our doors to God. He's been kicked out of every public establishment known and I ask, what does He represent? Yes, it's peace and the love of your fellow man. I ask, what's the opposite of peace and love. That's where we are now. Sure, I'd venture to say that most, if not everyone, in this forum are dedicated to these principles, but our society, which is our nation as a whole, is not, and if by chance they want change, then they must first start to produce fruit of their belief. The sin of doing is bad, but there is an even greater sin by mankind, and that's ALLOWING it to happen.

All of us, yes, I'm including myself, must start at home, then we must spread good will and change to our communities, and not sit back and (hope) the other guy will do it for us. Letter campaigns are a good start.

Idris.......

Our criminals can be labeled as dangerous offenders, but this alone will not keep them in our prisons. Many of our states have a "Three strikes and your out" law, which means they must be committed to prison for life. However, life does not always mean life. The young killer recently mentioned in this forum received a life sentence and the are now talking about reducing his sentence. Our streets and prison system here in the US are loaded with criminals with rap sheets (criminal records) a mile long and the courts continue to put them back out into the streets. There is a thing called Civil Rights, and a Constitution that protects even the criminal. I for one am not willing to advocate changing our Constitution. From what I read in Robby's posts is a man that has dedicated his life to working with men and women who's lives are fraught with self made problems that they themselves cannot solve without the help of men like him. However, I have yet to hear of a professional in his field that can change the path of our criminal society. This monumental task requires great insights to, and the finding of, solutions, and then the placing of them into action by the implementation of laws by the nation as a whole.

But I don't consider what I said as being political. Should I have said just President and then it wouldn't be political or what. I thought it was a valid point of another reason for the country to be in the shape it is. So...May be I should just shut up!!

Blue Knight...You have it all right for sure!!!

Martex is getting at the heart of my earlier post.

I don't believe Robby's comment was meant in any way to be in the negative Martex. In fact, he carried it on by asking our opinion of your post.

Robby #766.......

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Blue Knight, we too have a Constitution and a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We are a democracy. However, when one is designated a dangerous offender, you don't get out.

We also do not have the death penalty anywhere in Canada and have not since the late 50's. Our murder rate is far less than yours in terms of per capita but i still know that what you produce in the way of films, news coverage etc. comes sliding across our border. It is worrisome. Quite frankly it is not only garbage but very violent garbage. The fact that this is considered "entertainment" is a darn scary thought. One recording does not do anything to most folks, it is the constant barage of it that is gruesome and dangerous.

We can't stop what comes across the border or through the airwaves. Our entertainment is under "culture" and is yet another bone of contention with the soon to be updated NAFTA at the end of March. One shutters. Few of you understand NAFTA so there is no point in going into it.

What is it that draws children to this type of cruel and violent stuff? It truly confounds me. Is it just a reflection of parts of your society or is it for shock value?

It still seems to me that if we don't incarcerate every Tom, Dick and Harry for minor things then we have more room for the really bad folks and maybe some money to give treatment.

I agree we are too punitive here in USA. We think if we catch it (whatever the offense)in time, all will be well.

Our prison population is over 2,0000! This is in United States of America we all brag about! If we are so great what are we doing with 2,0000 of our people in prison? Who can explain this? Perhaps Lee can. We incarcerate more of our people than any other country in the world. Perhaps our justice system is not so just? Just maybe?

For the first time there is a willingness on the part of kids to talk out more openly because they are realizing that kids armed with guns can have real consequences. Posters in the halls urge students to tell someone if they see threatening behavior.

Calls to police in California and Kansas hav led to arrests that the police say averted potential school massacres. These tips may represent a breakthrough in efforts to get students to abandon their code of silence and to tell school officials about plans for violence.

Robby

Dear Cathy.....

The great misnomer is that "I want 'Justice'" No attorney ever argues justice in our court system, they argue law. Our prison system is not large enough. I'm 100% for placing the thief on up into jail and prisons. All crime, whatever it is requires consequences for our actions. I do NOT believe in the slap on the wrist, as it simply tells the offender that the punishment does not fit the crime and "What the heck, they really don't care about punishing me" so I'll do it again, and again, and again, and again........." You know what? They do. Earlier you read where I called the judges Santa Clause Judges because every day is Christmas, and it's gift time for the offender. Now please, my next comment may bring the wrath of some down upon my shoulders and I'm truly NOT trying to offend anyone, and if I do, I sincerely apologize in advance.

The United States has been steeped into our present decadent crime problems and juvenile delenquency problems for several reasons, and they are as follows: #1, A near Godles society. Take God out of Good and what do you have left? "O" #2, it is the parents fault, they are too busy to communicate with their children, so the kids find and have the time to get into trouble. The rest I won't number, and they are: Dr. Spock, a liberal society that believes everyone should be free to do their "own thing," drugs, school drop outs, liberal laws, liberal judges, I want mine and I want it now society, a near total disregard for your neighbors needs, little to no communication with your neighbors or with people met in public, a mistrust for fellow man, no love for others, poor work ethics, a lack of respect for employers, and an I'll do just enough to draw my paycheck, or I'll give the boss eight hours and that's all mentality, rather than giving him a minute or two of your own time. There is no end to this list. Like I say, it's the Me, me, me, me, and no you. How many wives are CRYING for their husbands to converse with them, or even to just listen to what they have to say? Ok, I've said enough. Off the soap box.

I'm sorry Robby, I guess you wish you hadn't invited me.

Are we to receive comfort from a "Big Brother" method of security? Is that what we mean of Democracy? How can a population live together with tattle tale method of security?

If a large percentage of those in prison needed mental health treatment and still need it...

If a shockingly high percentage of young people go untreated for mental health problems....

If parents and teachers think a child with a mental health problem is only a "bad kid" or a "lonely kid".....

If those children who had direct knowledge of that student's intent to bring a gun to school to kill people...could NOT bring themselves to get a fellow student "in trouble,"......

Then a massive campaign to demystify mental health problems, aimed at schools, parents, students, should begin. "Counseling," that mysterious thing that seems to be offered AFTER a shooting, could take its rightful place at the other end...when someone is identified with the first signs of mental health disease.

I don't know all the particulars between the beginning and the finish of such a campaign, but one fantasy I have is that a fellow student might possibly be persuaded to "help" another student by saying to a teacher, "J doesn't eat with us any more and he looked depressed to me and I think his parents just split up," as opposed to "getting someone into trouble" by saying, "J has a gun at home and he said one day he might bring it to school and teach everyone a lesson."

Betty

I made the above post before yours showed up.

I agree with much you said about excuses. They do seem weak and silly. But - they are the excuses that happen. We MUST find ways to handle these warps in everday living without hounding out the perpetrator with long prison sentences. I know this sounds like a very simple solution to a complex problem, but - we can never abandon our mercy for those who have made mistakes. Let us, for crying out loud, give them a new start! I guess that is called "Rehabilitation".

However, many students knew last week that the boy in California was planning to shoot up the school. They did nothing and now there are two dead teens.

Also, for psychiatric treatment to work, the person in need wants to have it. How many would want it? How will it be paid for? You all want to pay for it?

I am in Texas and I for one am glad that our former governor applied the death penalty. The bible says, "An Eye for An Eye".

Sure our prisons are over loaded. Well, I saw several news reports that many ex-cons can't make it on the outside and they do some petty crime so they can be sent back. After all, they get 3 meals a day, television, libraries, educations, medical and dental care. They have it far better than many poor people in this country. Now, maybe I better shut up. Blue Knight and Bob C. you have powerful messages.

A few years ago a lifer was let out of prison. He got out and proceeded to kill many women. Finally he was caught and was retried and got the death penalty. He was executed last year. Do you think the families of the victims thought that he should have had a second chance?

By the way, he was in for murder the first time, too. He was on death row but the death penalty was ended so he was suppose to be there for life. Some one on the pardon board (or whatever they call it) decided he was safe. Hah!!

Lee:--Regarding your being on a soapbox -- my concern begins when no one is participating!

I would add in this forum that we are, indeed, a cross section of democratic society. For some the presence of a deity is most important and we respect that. For others, such a belief is not part of their lifestyle and we respect that, too. As we continue to discuss this highly emotional topic, I am sure that no one will make any effort whatsoever to press his or her personal beliefs on any others.

Are we, then, talking about the importance of law in trying to solve the current crime problem or are we concentrating on psychotherapy. Or both?

Robby

Late Breaking News. What is needed -- law or psychotherapy?

Court: Suspect Planned To Kill Self By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 6:38 p.m. ET

EL CAJON, Calif. (AP) -- The high school freshman accused of killing two classmates and wounding 13 other people in a campus shooting spree told investigators he planned to use his last bullet on himself, according to court records.

Charles Andrew ``Andy'' Williams, 15, said he counted out 40 bullets before class, stowed his father's gun in his backpack and hid in a bathroom stall to load the revolver, investigators said in an affidavit for a search warrant. It was unsealed late Monday afternoon. He understood that his behavior was wrong and that it would result in injuring or killing people,'' Sharon Lunsford, a San Diego County Sheriff's Department investigator, wrote in the affidavit.

The search warrant was for the apartment where Williams lived with his father in suburban Santee, near San Diego. In the search they seized seven rifles, a computer and several computer disks. Williams was charged with 28 felonies, including two counts of murder, for the March 5 shooting at Santana High School.

Investigators suggest in the court records that Williams carefully planned the shooting but had no specific target. He told authorities he planned to run away and kill himself after the shooting but that police thwarted his plan by arriving sooner than he expected, Lunsford wrote. He said that, while he did not intend to kill any particular person, if someone died, they died,'' wrote Lunsford.

The documents provide few clues to the motive for the shooting. Williams told investigators he had made a few friends since moving from Twentynine Palms six months earlier, that the people in Santee were ``different'' from those he had known before and that he was disappointed with school.

He had begun to skip school and was barred from classes several times because he was late. His father, Charles, told investigators his son had recently started talking back to him. The father said he had taken his son shooting several times and kept other guns in the house in a locked cabinet.

A spokeswoman for Williams' attorneys said they declined to comment Tuesday because they were busy researching the case and a possible challenge to Proposition 21, the voter-approved initiative that required prosecutors to charge the boy in adult court.

Who is going to pay? We are going to pay. We pay when children kill children and families are destroyed. I'd rather have mental health treatment for all who need it and pay a few dollars. I remind you again Canada's Health Care system...while we still have it, is cheaper per capita by quite a bit than your system.

What is the big thing about money? Put in a proper system and these folks will be covered. Sheesh!!!!

Look, i have stated in here that i suffered from clinical depression. The only person i really hurt was me. However, the more folks admit that they had a mental health problem the quicker it will be that these illnesses are dealt with and not hidden. I'm no more ashamed of it than if i had diabetes. It is how we think about mental health care that counts. If it is seen as the person being a brick short of a load then nothing will ever change.

We have to know the symptoms and then get help for our loved ones. If you don't know the symptoms then you aren't tuned in to how serious this can be and that it can be treated.

I still think that the statements of the boy make it pretty clear that he had no empathy at all for anyone, including himself. That is clear to me. I also know the feeling of not giving a damn what happens to you when clinically depressed because you feel so terrible about yourself. These people need help and a proper health care system should be there to step in and help. First of course you have to know what to look for and pitifully few of us do.

I would also like to know the stats on the percentage of the total population that is incarcerated for starters.

I don't understand your proposition process either.

Idris, the proposition process is simply democracy at work. An issue is brought up with a proposed solution. The people vote on it. If it passes, it is supposed to become law. (The politicians sometimes find ways to defeat these laws.)

So far, most of what I have heard is "throw more money at the problem!" This seems to be the knee-jerk response to almost every issue, but seldom does it bring about a solution. I can't think of any major social problems that been solved lately with more money. How is money supposed to change behavior? It only ends up lining the pockets of politicians and their friends.

What is the solution to school shooters? We could start by giving less publicity to the perpetrators, and denying them their 15 minutes of fame. Better response by classmates and teachers to possible problems. Utilize teachers and other support staff to a much larger extent. It would be a start, and not a lot of money just thrown at the problem.

Lou.....

You're right regarding the money and publicity problems. However, we'll have to come up with a way to keep the kids from telling their parents and prevent everyone from leaking "hot news" to the press. We all most assuredly must agree that this is an unworkable solution.

I'd like to address the "Snitch" word. Personally, I used many "snitches" in my career, and their assistance brought many a felon to the bar. We treated our snitches with kid gloves and pampered them and would you believe, we wouldn't give their names to other officers for fear they would use and abuse them, or unintentionally cause them to be killed. I prefer the word "Informant" over snitch. Kids can be excellent informers who might well posess information that would never be known had they not come forward by divulging their knowledge of another kid with a gun, or had access to one where he had made threats to kill. We are not speaking of tattle tail things like Billy pulled Mary's hair. A good informant (snitch) could save a ship from a terrorist attack, or the life of hundreds of servicemen in a barracks. Oh yes, they have their place, and they are valuable in the protection of life and property. Let us assume young Johnnie has informed law enforcement authorities of a potential shooting situation and his information was acted upon. What has the youngster learned? Responsibility, reverance for the law, and a sound respect for life.

James Alan Fox, an expert on mass murder and a professor of criminology at Northeastern University, said that recent incidents might represent "a cultural change in how we view snitching." He said: "The code used to be, snitching ws the lowest form of human behavior for kids. You were seen as a worm. Now there have been so many forums and events about Columbine at schools that we are encouraging and rewarding snitching, and kids are also starting to take talk about guns more seriously."

The difference in attitude shows clearly in the case in California where a freshman at San Jose State University was working in a drugstore, checking the quality of photos processed by its lab. Columbine did make a difference to her, she said in an interview.

"My awareness level did go up a lot after realizing that young high school students could pull off a crime like that at their own school, and could have that kind of anger," she said. What she saw in certain photos shocked her. "He had so many different kinds of explosives and guns and everything, like two pictures of each thing. "When I saw the anger in his face in those pictures, I got the feeling that he could pull off something like Columbine."

She called her father, who urged her to call 911, and was told that a cruiser was on its way. At almost the same time, the high school student came in for his pictures, but she kept him talking until the police arrived.

When the police raided his house, they said they found 4 rifles, a sawed-off shotgun, 30 pipe bombs, 20 Molotov cocktails and 2,000 rounds of ammunition. They also found a tape recording in which he recounted his obsession with the killers at Columbine.

So much for "snitching."

Robby

Research at the Oregon Research Institute of formerly depressed teens showed that by their 24th birthday:

1 - One-fourth experienced subsequent major depressive disorder
2 - One-fourth experienced comorbid major depressive disorder, eg bipolar or dysthymia
3 - One-fourth remained free from depression recurrence but experienced a non-mood disorder, such as substance abuse, anxiety and eating disorders
4 - One-fourth were free of illness.

In other words, they may have gotten out of high school (either by graduating or dropping out) -- but now what?

Robby

Lou D, forgive me for wondering just what these propositions are all about. I knew what they were as we have talked about them in Canada and wonder about putting them into action. We are bombarded by your news so know your system fairly well.

When i say i don't understand them, i am talking about the motivation behind them. In many cases that we hear about they often seem like mean spirited, small minded people gathering together to remove money from schools and bridges, etc. It is the old thing of, "if i don't need it, i'm not paying for it." Is this why your teachers are so poorly paid? I am not very clear on that from listening to the cross border radio programs. If i'm having a particularly up day this week i shall listen across the band and try to find out. It is not one of my favourite pastimes.

It matters not one bit to me what you decide to do. Canadians will have to act to protect themselves against this wave of violence you don't wish to spend money on directly. You will pay, but that will be for more jails. Maybe that is what is preferred and is certainly none of my business.

Children in Canada have much the same anti-snitching code. I'll try to find out if there has been a change in attitude here. There are certain newer communities here that will never accept a snitch. Terrible thought too.

Not very happy stats, are they Robby?

I know that once one has a severe depression, one is put on a sort of "fragile" list for quite some time. It does re-occur with great regularity. I suppose that is why it is a very good idea for the family to really know the symptoms and make sure the patient gets to a Dr. before it comes back full force.

It is also true, i'm told, that once having it the illness it is far more likely to re-occur and the chances of full recovery less each time. I suppose it is up to the individual to know when they are falling back into depression and removing themselves from whatever it is that is threatening their good mental health. Certainly it is a black hole that makes the individual incapable of rational thought.

After two students were killed in the shooting last week, interview after interview with saddened fellow students had one glaring thing in common....no matter how much or how little knowledge they had of the shooter's intent, they did not tell anyone. Why? They were not sure how much weight to give the kidding around....those serious threats followed by "I was just kidding." Even two adults with specific information were not sure what to do, so they did nothing.

We adults are so thick skulled. We're hanging on to an idea that isn't working. And, no wonder. Even professional health care workers who are mandated by law to report suspected child abuse, question themselves, wonder if they are about to get an innocent person "in trouble." It's not just a child's hesitation; it seems to be a human reluctance to ring an alarm bell.

------------------------------------------------------

Insurance companies could help demystify mental health care by PAYING for it and stopping the practice of highlighting and separating it from every other kind of care in all printed material. "Mental Health" paragraphs are always boldly set off to the side...along with substance abuse treatment and other iffy too-risky-to-cover illnesses. It's about where CANCER paragraphs used to be.

Speaking of mental health...I wonder sometimes if this country isn't some form of mentally sick, with our paranoid, juvenile, macho-crazy gun obsession. Evidence of what works is all around us in other countries but, like a defensive teenager, we launch into our justification to own these deadly toys. "But, but, but," we say, tuning out the rest of the developed world.

betty

Betty, mental health problems are covered under our OHIP in Ontario and i assume the same applies across Canada. The meds aren't covered unless you are a senior (geared to income) or very low income earner.

I wonder too what you think of the report by the BBC reporter that some of the children were going home to wash their hair, change clothes and find a "for pay" reporter. It would appear to me that the media coverage of such events is doing some pretty strange things to children.

Idris, you don't seem to realize that it is not just an "all for me"' or "I don't need this" situation. Too many people in other countries get their impressions of us from the media -movies, tv, newscasts, etc., most of which are either embellished or exaggerated, or reflect only one person's or group's, opinion.

Take, for example, Massachusetts. A few years back the state income tax was raised from 5% to 6%, with the promise by the legislature that when the state recovered from deep deficits the tax would be rolled back. After years of record breaking surpluses, they went back on their word, so citizens sought to force them to roll back the tax rate with a binding proposition, which they to this day ignore. Another proposition, overwhelmingly voted for by the populace, was term limits, which seem to be ignored in a like manner. Most of these propositions are just an attempt by the citizens of a state to force the state legislatures to redress some real or perceived wrong.

Sometime it might be a good idea to check on the average teacher salaries on the internet. Then add to them the value of benefits they receive, such as health insurance, sick days, personal days, professional days (all paid), and compare them with other municipal workers in the same district or city. Then judge if their salaries are comparable to those in your country.

An item in an English paper (the Guardian, I think), said there have been, since 1974, 38 shooting incidents in U.S. schools. If true, not as widespread a problem as the media would lead us to be believe, although even one such incident is too much.

Then i guess we don't need to discuss the issue and all is just fine. Glad to hear it, LouD.

According to the U.S. Justice Department, the main reasons the prison population has increased even after an eight-year drop in crime are:--

1 - The number of inmates returned to prison for parole violations increased
2 - The length of the average sentence rose
3 - Drug crimes, which are not included in the overall crime rate computed by the FBI, did not drop.

1 - The number of inmates returned to prison after being released on parole during the 1990's grew by 54 percent
2 - Parole agents became tougher about revoking parole for technical violations like failing a drug test
3 - The number of criminals sent to prison for new convictions rose only 7 percent.

Robby

I don't wish to turn this into a religious discussion, or lack thereof, but I've always believed that we are our brother's keeper, despite what Cain said, in answer to God's question to him about Abel. I wonder how many of us here do more than add lip service to the problem? Do we only talk the talk, rather than walking the walk? How many have gone out among the poor, the under-educated, among those less fortunate, among children hungering for affection and love, and offered a helping hand? Have we gone into shelters with offers of help, distributed food and blankets to the cold and hungry, tried to teach the under-educated, done more than write a check, leaving the details to others?

I don't think government per se is going to ever come up with a blanket solution that will satisfy the dire needs of the less privileged, provide the nurturing and care that children must have, in order to grow up healthy and strong. There are too many others who have their hands out, reaching for whatever they can get, and the hell with everybody else. We always have been and will be a nation of special interests, and that is the reality of it. I hate to use cliches, but I can't help it here. "The squeaky wheel gets the oil."

I think it is up to the individual to do what he or she can to nurture our young, provide love and understanding to children, not just our own, and perhaps SOME progress can be made. It is not an overall solution, but at least it would help in some small way to begin to attack an intolerable situation.

Bob C

Bob says: "I don't wish to turn this into a religious discussion.

I appreciate that, Bob. It could easily do so, couldn't it? There are those here who believe in Cain and Abel and we respect that. There are those who do not, and we respect that too.

Your additional comments, however, are most worthy of consideration. Your primary question was: --"Do we only talk the talk, rather than walking the walk?" It is a question which all of us might consider.

Robby

Here are the results of a computer-assisted study by the New York Times looking back more than 50 years and coming up with a profile of 102 killers in 100 rampage attacks. The study included the shootings in 1999 at Columbine High School and one by a World War II veteran on a residential street in Camden, J.J. in 1949. In all, 425 people were killed and 510 people were injured. The database, which primarily focused on cases in the last decade, is believed to be the largest ever compiled on this phenomenon in the United States.

Though the attacks are rare when compard with other American murders, they have provoked an intense national discussion about crime, education and American culture. The research found, however, that the debate may have largely overlooked a CRITICAL ISSUE. AT LEAST HALF OF THE KILLERS SHOWED SIGNS OF SERIOUS MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS. Whether they happened in a school, in a mall, in a crowded train or in a workplace, these crimes have been characterized in a language of incomprehension -- "senseless," "random," "sudden," and "crazy."

To use Bob's term, in solving this problem, how best can we "walk the walk?"

Robby

I have a question for Lee who, before retiring, spent many years in the area of law enforcement.

Lee, based on your experience, what amount of training do law enforcement officers receive in the area of mental health?

Robby

"I am full of apprehensions and of hopes. I perceive mighty dangers which it is possible to ward off -- mighty evils which may be avoided or alleviated, and I cling with a firmer hold to the belief that, for democratic nations to be virtuous and prosperous, they require but to will it."

Alexis deTocqueville

Not being sure what Tocqueville means by virtuous I make the following remarks: A prosperous nation is what every American brags about. BUT, are we truly prosperous with 2,0000 of our citizens in prisons? Supposedly 40,0000 without health insurance? With an infra-structer crumbling? With farmers losing their farms? With public transportation on the brink? With bankruptcy laws being changed to protect the Banks at the loss of the customer? With every down turn setting the stock market in a panic? I think not. I believe the average citizen wills our prosperity, but the powers that be are in a frenzy for their re-election and too busy in their survival to pass legislation for the health of the electorate. I am pessimistic in our virtue.

Robby.....

You've asked a good question. I date back pretty far Robby, and it would be safe to say that in the 50's through the late 70's there wasn't any training in that area. Quite naturally, mental health was recognized in later years as being a major contributor (in varying degrees) to the untold suicides and family disputes I've encountered in my years of law enforcment. Robby, my head is swimming with stories of people that I now recognoize as having needed that kind of help back then. As one of many examples, I found myself at the top of a high rise building trying to talk a woman back from a ledge below me. It took over an hour to gain her confidence until another officer and I could go out and snatch her back in. After bringing her back into the building, she clung to me like I was her father. We didn't have a department psychologist in the early years, but later the department had one assigned and on call 24-hours a day. He was there for officers involved in shootings. Victims, patients, and suspects we believed to have a mental problem were taken to Detective Headquarters where they were evaluated and then transported to U.S.C. Medical Center (County Hospital) for observation and further evaluation and lock-up (if they were suspects in a crime). All others were admitted for the appropriate personnel to make a proper evaluation. The reason our first stop was Detective Headquarters was for confirmation by officers trained in the recognition of (mental problems). We did not want to book a person with mental problems into our jails. It was a safe-guard for the suspect and the other inmate population.

Cathy speaks of the number of people in prisons. Are the current school shootings merely a microcosm of a larger picture of crime in America or is it something very different?

Serious crime declined in the first six months of 2000 compared with the same period in 1999, but only by three-tenths of one percent, the smallest decrease since the nation's crime rate began falling in 1992. While the number of murders fell 1.8 percent nationwide in the first half of the year, many cities, led by New York Los Angeles, Dallas and New Orleans, had an increase in murders for the first time since the early 1990's.

All the measures that contributed to the drop in crime are still in place:--

1 - More criminals in prison,
2 - Innovative police strategies
3 - Intense community efforts to work with troubled young people
4 - A waning of the crack cocaine epidemic
5 - A strong economy providing more jobs in poor neighborhoods.

The Uniform Crime Report of the FBI is based on arrest figures supplied by local police forces and measures four violent crimes -- murder, robbery, rape and agravated assault -- and four property crimes -- burglary, petty theft, motor vehicle theft and arson. It does not include drug arrests.

Are we a lawful nation?

Robby

You got a smile out of me on that one Robby. NO, we are not a lawful nation, and I sincerely wonder if we ever were.

Question:

#1, What is lawful, and #2,What is unlawful? If we fail #1, we fail #2.

Robby, question: Is a white lie equal to a lie? Or, is there such a thing as a white lie?

Of course it's a lie. A lie is a lie. But a white lie is "supposedly" holding back from saying a truth you don't want to tell, ostensibly to be nice.

Now I have a question for you and everyone here. We have been talking about crime and we call this a nation of Laws (not synonymous with a lawful nation). So where do lawyers fit into all this?

Robby

"I cling with a firmer hold to the belief that, for democratic nations to be virtuous and prosperous, they require but to will it." Alexis deTocqueville

From what we've seen the last couple of decades would you say it is possible to be prosperous and virtuous at the same time?

An excellent question, Linda. I'll hold back on giving my answer at the moment.

Robby

Robby.......

To argue law.

Harry......

Yes, but it boils down to individual ethics.

New York State will become the first state to require that nearly all nonviolent criminals who are drug addicts be offered treatment instead of jail time. It is already being phased in and will be fully in place by the Year 2003.

Criminal justice experts and court officials, noting that court-required tratment has an average success rate of 70 percent, said the initiative would reduce the number of people who repeatedly commit crimes like burglary and prostitution to support their addictions. They predicted that the state's inmate population wold decreae by at least 10 percent once the program was in full force.

Robby

We have I believe as a nation lost our moral compass and our character.. We have undergone enormous changes over the past 50 years in our culture and have become much more multiculturial.... We have not assmilated all the "new" Americans into the fabric of our nation....We are tearing each other apart...racial unrest continues, rich against poor, young against old, and it seems our two political party's encourage this in many ways..... Material things are more important to people than people....There is a total lack of respect for each other...for our schools...for our institutions....Young people of course are a reflection of all this.... Though many do not believe in "old time religion" somehow we must instill values and character back into the nation and the schools....In many homes this is no longer taught...school may the only way some children are exposed to values....respect for each other.....and life....... I think drugs should be de-crimialized.....the sooner the better.... Good for another discussion I expect.......

"We have undergone enormous changes over the past 50 years in our culture and have become much more multiculturial.... We have not assmilated all the "new" Americans into the fabric of our nation.

What do you think of Tigerliley's theory? Have we, as a nation, grown too fast with too much input from too many other cultures? Is the variety of "differences" among us the primary cause of crime? Do we continue to be a "nation of Law" rather than a "nation of people" or has the tremendous influx of varying types of people overwhelmed the Law? Is our Constitution no longer workable?

Robby

Poverty, hopelessness and mental illness are the usual causes of crime.

Canada is far more multicultural than the US of A and we certainly not as violent. We do not have certain strong fundamentalist organized religions either. If you go to Vancouver you will see just as many Indian temples as you will Christian Churches. In Canada it would be impossible to say...return to God, because one would have to wonder, who's God.

Canada has certainly grown too fast to incorporate everyone smoothly. Percentage wise, we have grown far more quickly than you have. It is not easy and multicultural programs abound. I fear they often do more to set apart, than to bring together.

I can't see these new folks being assimilated. I can see them being accepted as part of the larger community, but not assimilated. There is no point in telling the government to slow down as we like you are an aging population. We need young folks very badly to keep everything going.

What will we become? I have no idea.

From the Worcester (Mass.) Telegram and Gazette, 3/15/01 ---

"Mr. Jeleniewski was said to be obsessed with the movie “Scream,” and, prosecutors said, hatched the idea of killing the two young women, whom they had met over the summer."

These killings took place in 1997. Three young men were involved, tried and convicted. Can anyone doubt the influence of Hollywood upon the minds of many of our young?

So you think that is the whole answer, Lou D? I doubt it. It is but part of the larger puzzle. There are no easy answers, which we all love so much.

"Can anyone doubt the influence of Hollywood upon the minds of many of our young?"

How does one account for the young who are not negatively affected by Hollywood?

Robby

They are not negatively affected because they do not have emotional problems and hopelessness, for starters.

I didn't intend to convey that that was the answer. I only meant to show an example of a part of the problem.

BTW, these 3 young men received various sentences, and could be out in 15-20 years or so. Yet the two teenage girls they brutally murdered will never be free of their graves. Where is the justice?

The criminal justice system will never make whole that which was lost, Lou D. That is why it is important to minimize the number of criminals. What would you suggest for these murders?

If i may, i would like to add one more problem to this mix. FAS or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome is often a contributing factor in crime, in my opinion. I was only able to find a couple of links but this one is the best of the bunch. If you read through it you will see some pretty horrific numbers for certain segments of the population.

We have this problem in the far north of Canada. It is difficult to solve this problem never mind help. At the very least we are making an effort in certain communities where the folks themselves have asked that the children be removed because of gas sniffing. The children must be removed, motivaated, challenged and of course a change in the environment. So far no one has figured out how to change the environment in these horrid places. The families are in severe trouble and are just beginning to get help. I'm sure that wasn't easy for them but the problem is enormous.

FAS

It's been said that John Grisham (The Brethren, The Chamber, The Pelican Brief) lost a good friend due to a copy-cat killing of someone having watched Natural Born Killers. Grisham had fought long and hard to stop the film from being released, too. Since then, his writing has changed. He seems to have lost heart for the types of writing he was doing before.

Another thing about the movies: Remember when we were growing up the movies were filled with smokers. I wonder how many of us were influenced by seeing so much of that and began smoking because it seemed "the thing to do."

Now it is guns and bombs, violence...

Linda

To be eligible for the drug treatment program in the New York State courts mentioned above, offenders will have to test positive for drugs and be willing to plead guilty. They are assigned to specially trained judges who will monitor their cases. Instead of going to jail, the defendants will enter a rigorous treatment program that will generally last two years, and they will submit to strict monitoring by court officials, including continued drug tests.

If they relapse, they will go to jail, most likely receiving stiffer sentences than normally given now, although that will be left to the judge's discretion. Even if a defendant chooses to stand trial, the judges and district attorneys will still have the discretion to refer them to drug treatment until trial.

Do you folks here see a definite connection between mental health in America and crime in America, or are we emphasizing the mental health aspect of it too much?

Robby

It is only part of the puzzle and one of the reasons. There is no "click this button and win" thing in this.

We've gotten too soft and spoiled. We are a greedy country and the children are given everything they want and more. So we have selfishness as a problem and children wanting their own way more so than ever and many parents are backing the child rather than teaching them to give and to have manners. This isn't all children, of course, but there is a bigger and bigger percentage of them each decade.

Linda

Do you really think the children who live in terrible conditions in the inner cities of places like Chicago, etc. are spoiled and greedy? I don't think so.

Of course not. Only the ones that grow up to run the country.

I would say that's the $64,000 question. "Prosperous" is rather subjective. A lot depends on one's state of mind. I recall, while working as a "big brother" many years ago, being appalled at the sorry to me living conditions of a young boy I was trying to mentor. I went into his home on an extremely hot day, and noticed that they had no a/c. I asked him whether he was hot or not, and his answer was, "No, we got a fan." To me he had to be uncomfortable, but to him everything was fine.

I am not sure that we can define prosperity in terms of possessions, though that is what America seems to be about. I believe being prosperous is truly a state of mind, and that is where the difficulty lies. Just what kind of a mind set do we as Americans have? It seems to be, for the most part, "I've got mine, and that is really all I care about.' We talk the talk, as I've said, but when it comes to doing anything about helping others, we have pious words to say, and that's about it.

Yes, there are many who have mental health problems, who live in poverty, who have physical disabilities, and the list goes on. I don't see the point in all this hand wringing. It accomplishes little, except venting on the part of individuals. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, at least to myself, but until there is action instead of words, this sad state of affairs is not going away.

Bob C

"I don't see the point in all this hand wringing. It accomplishes little."

And so, as I have asked in previous postings, what is the solution to school shootings and other crimes?

Robby

Roberto asks: What can we do to put our muscle where our mouth is? That is the key to problem solving! Rhetoric is cheap. An attempt to act is vital, but very seldom successful. Why?

I have reached the age where injustice is an angony to my sensibilities; but, what can I do? Roberto , I truly don't know. I have only so much income and much of that is helping my grandchildren and their education. I guess I am using that old saying "that charity begins at home."

Robby asks: And so, as I have asked in previous postings, what is the solution to school shootings and other crimes?

I say put discipline back in schools. Put prayer back in schools. Heavens!! Now in some school they don't even say the Pledge of Alligience anymore.

Teachers can't even send a student to the principal's office now or the parents will be on the phone with their lawyer.

At home, teach your children to respect their elders. Take away the free use of television and video games. So, we are interfering with the child's freedom? Well, he/she can have freedom when they are old enough to pay their own way. Quit worry about traumatizing him/her by saying, "No".

Got to go...I am meeting my daughter and grandson for lunch and shopping.

I'm afraid "discipline" and "prayer in schools" won't have much effect on poverty, hopelessness and mental health problems (list from Idris). The child I'm talking about is not the one talking back to the teacher or who got too many video games for Christmas. The child I'm talking about doesn't make too many waves but has been writing poetry about suicide for months, or who has to hold the pillow over his head at night to tune out sounds of his mother being beaten. The child I'm talking about is a superb actor...he looks fine but is fragile on the inside and slowly falling apart.

A friend of mine did a year's internship about five years ago at a child psychiatric unit. Most of her patients were under ten years old and had attempted suicide. Quite a few were 5 and 6 years old. I still can't get my mind around that.

Maybe they were the lucky ones...the ones whose desperation rose quickly and someone HAD to notice what was happening, therefore the treatment. What about those whose illness (or level of pain...maybe from the death of a parent, or secret abuse, or serious brain dysfunction) is not quite so noticable? Those are the kids that struggle through each year, either gradually getting better or gradually getting worse. Those are the kids that need identification and treatment.

If you think the old things work, then go for it. Good luck to you.

Sorry, Roberto won't happen again.

I happen to agree with you Betty.

Robby.....

Whew, miss a day and how can one catch up?

I do not believe there can ever be a nation of people without being a nation of (with) laws, unless that nation of people were a nation of perfect people. This will not come in our world.

Martex.......(Your #837)

I agree. Start the movement, I'll back you.

Me, too, Martex. And add to that give some weekly responsibilities to the children. Taking out trash, setting the table, cleaning their room, etc.

Just the thought of a lawsuit gives everyone the willies. I blame lawyers for messing up a lot of things. No one can even speak their mind sometimes for fear of a lawsuit. Now, in The USA, that seems kind of silly.

Linda

We have all ways the mentally ill, the dysfunctional family's, and the poor.... We had them 50 years ago....we have them today....we will all ways have them..... That is not to say that we as a nation should not continue to help all those just mentioned....we have and we are....... I don't think it is just the mentally ill and the poor shooting up the schools...Most of here probably didn't have a whole lot as we were growing up....I didn't know it....I thought I was fine....I say again......we have lost our moral compass and character as a people..... Many of our citizens respect nothing...not themselves nor anyone else....... Our institutions are failing...our courts, our schools........ I would rather have the 10 commandents as a guide than no guide.....there are no parameters anymore.....there is no "right and wrong".... Children need these guidelines...they need some structure...... They are not getting it from their parents.....As for doing something to help change this situation I am helping younsters in a reading program at the local library.....

Very well said Tigerlily! I agree.

Someone said a gazillion posts ago that the 60's did such and such to the country. I meant to add to that post that the morals sank terribly. There is more divorce, more promiscuity, more children born out of wedlock, less regard for authority, and we could go on and on.

Add Vietnam to the mix and we have become hurt, dizzied, and crumpled.

Linda

Tigerliley, i certainly agree with you.

I wonder where Cathy went, as she always has something good to add.

Roberto, i did a lot for other people's children right up til the time my children graduated from university and moved on to other universities. What is it that you do to help? My daughter is a volunteer in a literacy program for adults. My son's work is all about learning and youth. However, at the moment i am doing nothing to help young Canadians in trouble.

Without looking in the dictionary, how do you folks define the term "morality?"

Robby

poor, abused, or mentally ill. The reason the world (I do say world, too, because the USA is not the only country with problems. I bet there are even a few in Canada), Anyway, the world has many problems. I think more or less everyone in the world will never come to an agreement. It would be nice if they did but that is unrealistic. I see all the problems that you all mention. However, I focus on the ones I think are the most important. Just like you all focus on what you think are the most important.

As i live in a country that has Judea/Christmas mores, i believe it to be to treat others as i would have them treat me.

The mores of different societies vary a fair bit. There are certain things that as a Canadian i believe are wrong and Americans may think are right. If i lived in the middle-east or an Asian country the mores would be very different.

is having a conscience.

Morality = Having a conscience.

Anyone else?

I believe that we all serve with the gifts (skills, education, finances, intelligence and natural interests) that we possess as individuals. Those who are skillful with children (literacy programs) are at the heart of learning. Others who focus on their own family members are equally important as their lessons to grandchildren can be shared with classmates, team mates, etc. Adults who have law enforcement or military backgrounds (or are still active duty)share their own experiences with youth, bringing to the forefront what a structured, law-abiding environment is like to young people who may have little of that in their lives. Some volunteer (or pursue careers) in mental health, carefully delving into lives often lost in shadows and fantasies.

North America comprises communities of people reaching out to help, NOT just those committing crimes or violence against themselves and their communities. Community service is unheard of in many other countries, especially to the extent that we have it in our own communities.

However, the media (both print and non-print), along with the sensationalized movies, contributes so much to the negative aspects of what children see, hear and ultimately believe: the boy who walked off the roof because he believed if Batman could do it, so could he; the 12 year old boy who killed a 6 year old girl by swinging her into a banister, copying something he had seen adults do on World Wide Wrestling; a child who shoots a gun at a classmate because he has seen it done on TV. One can only ask, where are the adults to explain that is NOT what "you do in real life."

Yes, many children are from parentless homes or are in foster care or institutionalized. But there ARE adults around. "Parenting" does NOT necessarily mean only with one's own children, as the many organizations of concerned adults are proving. The mentors in the community who work with troubled youth (and often their parents) show positively what can be done. Schools COULD bring more morals teaching to the classroom, if the Boards of Education (and the voters behind them) were't so afraid of breaching someone's sensitivities. Good, decent behavior instruction (and the value for human life)should not intrude on any child's religious or ehtnic background!

I've worked with international children from war zones and their understanding of human life (especially those who have witnessed mass murders in early life)is so totally different than most average American kids. These are TRULY traumatized children and youth! This is a wonderful region of the world, but we have alot to be ashamed of; alot that needs more (immediate) attention. Those of us who have raised our children - and perhaps are helping to raise grandchildren too, whether directly or indirectly - have to just keep doing what we are capable of doing. And if possible let our voting voices be heard in the legislative chambers of elected officials.

What a wonderful post, Persian.

Well put, Persian. Bravo to you.

)

Robby.......

I'm sure we all have much to say regarding morality. I guess we might address: By who's standards? What I might see as moral or immoral, might well be the opposite from how the other guy might feel. I'm sure we've all heard the saying: "If God doesn't do something about the immorality running rampant in America, He's going to have to apologize to Sodom and Gamorrah." I must return to my previous comments of: "So goes Hollywood, so goes the world." The filth our children (grandchildren) see on TV (and they DO see it), adults using foul language in the presence of women and children and haven't a clue they have said anything wrong, teachers, professors, TV personalities, movie stars, and yes, some parents("do your own thing, and "if it feels good do it") are encouraging and bombarding our adults and our youth to "join" the immoral lifestyles, and honestly believe that we who speak against it are out of step with society. Should I mention people in high places? No, we all know about that one. The selling and usage of illegal drugs is immoral, and leads to adults and juveniles selling themselves to make a buy, and yes, even on Monday night football one of the commentators uses foul language and he thinks it's funny. Most of us in this forum remember the Haze office in Hollywood who flipped when Bob Hope mentioned "Water Closet" on TV. Look at how we have advanced in 50-years. The question is, can anything be done to turn it around? I say NO, and the morals of our once beloved and respected USA are only going to get worse. I'm sure there are those here that might say: But we have to do something, and I ask, what, and how? Saying and offering solutions sounds fine, but can, and will they ever be done? Boy how we've left the days of Ma Perkins.

Now, am I looking for us to be a perfect society? Of course not, but I would like for us to be living in a decent society.

Robby.......

MIght I add to your last post by saying: Even folks with a conscience can live an immoral lifestyle. Some of them jump off of buildings.

Lee has described some of what might be called "excesses" in the operation of our Democracy. According to deTocqueville:--"The authority Americans have intrusted to members of the legal profession, and the influence which these individuals exercise, is the most powerful existing security against the excesses of Democracy."

Are the members of our legal profession acting to control or eliminate these excesses? What are our courts doing (if anything) in the name of morality?

Robby

In many ways you are a more moral society than you were in the 50's. It depends on what you see as being moral. In the 50's you still had segregation and all that entailed. There are visions still in my head of the first time i saw some of that in your country.

In both of our countries one would lose a job and being beat up if a whiff of being a homosexual came to light.

Women stayed with abusive husbands for the good of the children no matter how bad it was for them or the children.

Children we not believed when sexual abuse was known by the family but denied.

In some ways the courseness of the life we live now is more evident but in other ways it is better.

Lee says: "So goes Hollywood, so goes the world."

More than 80 percent of American adults tell pollsters they think the violence in the culture contributes to violent acts by young people. But the First Amendment makes it almost impossible to draft a law that would place meaningful restrictions on the entertainment. Freedom of speech is sacrosanct. Any real crackdown on entertainment would amount to an extension of regulation from Washington. There were always peep shows (turn of the 20th century) or gangster movies (1930's) or comic books (1950's) or disco (1970's).

Last Fall the Senate Commerce Committee approved a bill that would prohibit the broadcast of television shows with violence in the daytime or early evening. Under the legislation, the Federal Trade Commission would define what was violent. The bill never became a law. The notion of letting five unelected bureaucrats at the commission decide what can be broadcast and when it can be broadcast is objectionable to most free people.

Pause to think. It is impossible to prospectively define what constitutes "violent" progrmming in a way that will not prohibit the transmission of "Saving Private Ryan" or "Schindler's List" for example. Do we want to ban the broadcast of "Romeo and Juliet?" Even if by some fluke of politics the bill were to be passed and signed by the president, the supreme Court would almost certainly declare it unconstitutinal. Approximately a year ago the Supreme Court struck down a law that required cable systems to limit sexually explicit channels to late-night hours, on the ground that the law violated the basic principle of free speech.

May I suggest, folks, that although our current sub-topic is Crime and the Law, we are actually back to (and always seem to come back to) the basic question which lies in this Discussion Group's title -- "What is a Democracy?" Please re-read deTocqueville's remark above in the Heading which starts with "I have sought..."

Robby

One of the reasons i am opposed to the NAFTA renewal at the end of March is because your country perceives our "Culture and Heritage Ministry" as a protectionist thing. It isn't to us and the manuvering by the entertainment industry in your country to define all of this as "entertainment" is very upsetting.

Your stuff comes across our border in enormous waves and something must be done to protect our culture and heritage. Our world would be a far less creative and distinct place without the artists of Quebec and other Provinces.

We do have laws that say one cannot spread "hate language and literature" in any form. We have a different way of looking at protecting the vulnerable and i hope we don't get beaten into submission on this one.

If my words seem a tad angry and odd then that is simply because this discussion is going full tilt in Canada, as we come up to the 31st of March deadline. Believe me i am a pussycat in comparison to many a Canadian.

Robby, you asked what our courts are doing in the name of morality. My answer is nothing! What they have been doing is providing a "legal" way to allow purveyors of violence and filth to foist upon the rest of us their products. Idris has complained about what comes across the border over the airwaves (I presume), with no way to prevent it from being available to impressionable people, all in the name of "freedom of speech". It's too bad they (the courts) don't seem to realize that the right to swing one's fist ends just before the other person's nose.

Lou:--I believe it was one of the Supreme Court justices who said a few years ago that "I can't define obscenity but I know it when I see it." In light of the comments I made in my Post 858, how would you define "violence" and how would you go about blocking it without blocking, for example, "Romeo and Juliet" or "Julius Caesar" or "Hamlet?"

Robby

LouD, we do have laws that protect one from walking into a movie or watching something on TV that is horrid. Programs and movies are rated for foul language, gratuitous violence and explicit sex. That is about all the government can do.

The death our our cultural heritage because of your huge entertainment industry truly frightens me. There is a difference in our homegrown creative products. Just because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist. I know it is difficult for any of you who live on your side of the ditch to understand this. NAFTA's renewal at the end of this month, is causing much concern over here be it papers, radio, TV or the arts communities.

This is of course but one of the many things on the table for the end of March. It matters not how much the little mouse squeeks, the elephant will have its way.

Did you know that in Canada we are more upset about violence than sex on the screen? Probably not.

Idris:--How do you define "horrid" or "foul language" or "gratuitous violence?" In dictatorships, the head honcho says "this is the definition" and that is that. Operating a Democracy is a two-edged sword.

Mike keeps saying "The People Rule." Some people would not want to stop what you describe as "horrid." They, also, have a vote.

Robby

Robby, it is geared to age. Simple as that. If a child is with an adult and the adult would like them to see the show or own the video...then so be it. It is simply a method of telling the customer where this movie, cd or video fits in a scale. You make up your own mind whether you want to view it or not.

I abhor violence and therefore would have a pretty low tolerance level. The customer decides given the "R" for restricted or "violence and explicit sex" etc. It is up to the individual.

As for your question, as a Canadian i can hold a different opinion and calling names won't change my mind.

What if the "child" is 16?

Robby

A child is no longer a minor at 16. They can pretty watch, purchase or rent whatever they chose. They had better have a card with them to prove age.

Morality = Doing what you know in your heart to be the right thing.

People that do 'bad things' know deep in their heart what is right and wrong, but choose to do it anyway. Those that don't have that knowledge are few and far between.

Hi Mahlia. We are just going to town. I will email you when we get back.

Two definitions of "morality" so far:--

1 - Conscience
2 - Doing what you know in your heart to be the right thing.

Robby

What if your society tells you something is "right" when it is wrong? Doesn't it depend on your level of enlightenment, where you live, what the local or nation's laws say are okay? People accept what they are taught is right or wrong, that doesn't mean it is.

Look around the world at what is acceptable and "right" i bet there are a lot of them we don't agree with. The people in those countries do accept the local or national "right."

Idris I think that all humans know deep down what is right. We have felt the pain when people have done 'wrong things' to us. I don't think it matters where we live or what our culture.

You are probably right, Kath but governements have a way of making people think something is right when it isn't. Just look at the mess in the Balkans right now.

Everyone knows it is wrong to kill but if you can demonize the victum or pretend they are sub-human you are giving the right to kill, maime and murder. It is seen as right, good and noble.

We have a number of places in the world right now where people are being murdered using this premise.

Were lynchings not this same form of murder? We as humans are but a hair's breath away from scum. We convince ourselves that right and God are on our side and murder.

I suppose I am hopeless ..... Morality is living ones life in a manner which does no violence to you or your fellow beings.....now there are many forms of violence I know....that is as close as I can come to an "over all meaning"...... I am kind of like that judge, Robby.....I know it when I see it.........

Three definitions of "morality" so far:--

1 - Conscience
2 - Doing what you know in your heart to be the right thing.
3 - Lving your life in a manner which does no violence to you or your fellow beings.

Robby

I have come to believe that there are so many kinds of evil that we (more precisely i) can do without thinking about it. I have purchased clothing from countries where i have since found out they had not only child labour but indentured servitude. The world goes smaller with trade and we are confronted with moral decisions unheard of years ago.

Do i know this is wrong? Yes. Have i done it? Yes. What does that make me? Certainly not moral when i purchased those items. Does my morality end at my pocketbook. Do i act to stop abuse of children in this way? Do i speak up loudly when wrong is being done? Probably only when i am truly disgusted. Does that make me moral? I sure don't think so.

I don't think being moral is easy, because sometimes it is a matter of looking the other way so i don't have to judge myself too harshly. If one knows that a harm is being done somewhere in the world because of what i do, then i am culpable.

Idris says:--"We are confronted with moral decisions unheard of years ago.

That makes one to ponder. Are we saying that what is moral today is not moral tomorrow -- or vice versa?

Robby

Yes, i am. It was easy to be moral years ago, or at least i found it to be. I knew what was right and what was wrong. My world was small, my opinions less well thought out. Like everyone else i became more aware of the horrors around me. Each new realization has had to be thought out, and quite frankly i find myself wanting. This is not a pleasant situation to find oneself in.

If i take the easy way out and say nothing, do nothing as far as my own existance goes then i am immoral. Slaying dragons is not in me, and i find it frightening to think i will turn a blind eye to that which is wrong if it can somehow embarass, hurt or cost me. I have no idea if anyone else is the woosie i am but it truly bothers me. It is not easy being moral in this rotten world. More power to those who will stand on the side of right, no matter what it costs them.

CATHY says, "Charity begins at home." TIGERLILEY says, "I am helping youngsters in a reading program at the local library." There's at least part of your answer, Cathy. One doesn't have to be charitable in a financial way. There are many things one can do to help children. Donate a little of your time. That's not much to ask. My son tutors inner-city children on his lunch hour, in reading and math. He brings along a box of pencils, and paper, which he gives as rewards for achievement. They are overwhelmed, and strive hard to learn. That is what I mean by walking the walk.!

IDRIS asks me, "What is it that you do to help?" Well, dear, I'm old enough to be your father, and am no longer physically able to do anything much but write checks. However, my conscience is quite clear. I did what I could when I was a lot younger, in one on one situations as a "big brother." That ball is now in the courts of others who are more viable.

Bob C

As I am not aware of the various ages in this discussion and, I would assume that most of us are not, perhaps comments on that are not appropriate. I will be 81 this September but I will not take it upon myself to determine who in this discussion is the age of my children nor do I believe that is relevant. Wisdom to some come when they are pre-teens. Others are nonagenarians but their wisdom is lacking.

Robby

Roberto - I have the philosophy that to do damage to another human being out of ignorance or intent is evil. I will never hurt a child that finds themselves in my care and influence. I could not in any way say or do anything that would harm them. BUT - sometimes we are misunderstood in our trying to guide them in the right way as we see it. If we can just trust our young to be honest with us I believe we can be honest with them. I feel we must live what we espouse. We can't fool'im - they know when we are hypocrites!

I feel we all have only so much energy and so much money to make a difference. I think we all know when we have met that measure and the peace of mind we deserve.

Adris......

I really don't see the "equal" boarder exchange as an Us against you. Our smut crosses your boarders, and your dope crosses into ours. Granted, both are vile, but neither nation can be blamed as the blame belongs to those who wish to view or use these illicit products. You comment that Canadians are up in arms over the films entering your country and law enforcemment in the USA are alarmed over the massive amounts of illegal drugs crossing into our country which severely affects our economy and safety. The question remains, what are we as joined and friendly nations going to do about it? or, will anything (enough) ever be done to satisfy society?

"The question remains, what are we as joined and friendly nations going to do about it? or, will anything (enough) ever be done to satisfy society?"

Exactly!! We are back to the original question, aren't we? Most of us know the problems. What are the SOLUTIONS?

And an added thought -- who are we to complain about our elected representatives in this Republic if we can't seem to think of any solutions ourselves? Especially those of us who have lived for many decades.

Robby

Robby......

There ARE answers (solutions), but we are confronted by individual moral constraints. The elimination of these scourges would require drastic measures that society most likely will not accept. Where does that leave us? Square one.

"We are confronted by individual moral constraints."

The operative word there is "individual," isn't it? "One man's meat is another man's poison." Hence, the difficulty in defining what is moral. And this brings us back to Mike's constant refrain that "The People Rule."

This reminds me of something when I received training to be a Scout Executive and was responsible for forming committees. If the responsibility was left up to the committee "as a whole" without a chairman, then the problem we were taught was that "everybody's business is nobody's business." There had to be a location of responsibility. Harry Truman said: "The buck stops here" but it doesn't, does it, because we have a system of checks and balances in a Democracy. The Executive and Legislative and Judicial are supposed, theoretically, to be absolutely equal. And an equal balance means no one is running the show -- except the PEOPLE!! And here we are, back here in Senior Net, a cross-section of "older people" supposedly running the show.

So if we, the People, hold so much power, how come we are unable to arrive at a solution?

Robby

Well Robby I know a lot of things which would be a good beginning but as we all know what I be believe to be a good beginning would most certainly not suit others......Maybe that is why things are in such a muddle..... We no longer have national goals, morals, culture or heritage..... Again I believe our two major political party's are not showing leadership in this area......may even be they foster more unrest in the populice with race baiting, class warfare etc.....

There ARE times when the moral choice is not clear. This has been the subject of drama since the time of the ancient Greeks. The greek plays are full of it. There was the fellow who was bound by tradition to avenge his father's murder by killing the murderer who turned out to be his mother (and wife) so he killed her and plucked out his own eyes.

There is a curent debate about reforming campaign finance, a blatantly corrupt system, by infringing on our cherished right of free speech.

Solution? All we can do is the best we can. This often means trying to select the "lesser of two evils".

Roberto, i have no idea why your posts to me are so abrasive. Is it just me or something about me that bugs you? My opinions are just as valid as yours are no matter how old or smart you are. I am posting as honestly as i know how to and don't hold myself out to have great answers to anything including this question.

Yes, Blue Knight the drug of choice from BC floods your country in the West in particular. The scum of the world do their best to make money on the trading and selling of people, guns and drugs.

In another month, in the beautiful Old Quebec City, the Free Trade of the Americas conference will be held. Already it has large groups from the US of A coming to do another battle from Seattle. Canadians will act up too along with a number of our politicians. The questions are moral, as free trade spreads into the whole of the Americas.

The question becomes will we note only the threatened violence or the issues raised by those who hold a differing opinion on this trade deal? We will see it as a moral battle? Will we see it as a bunch of crazies? Is this any different than the folks in the 60's who fought to stop a war or segregation?

I am a free trader but not an America first and the rest will do as they are told, trader. I find this a very moral battle for the hearts and minds of the rest of us. Yes, it is difficult to be moral today because competing interests and self interest and greed abound. This goes for Canada and Canadians too. What we do will effect the lives of many very poor men, women and children. Will we step up to the plate and do the right things or what is best for us?

We cast our vote and pray the elected do what is right. These folks represent us and if they work on a deal that makes worse the lives of people living in third world circumtances, i too am culpable because i voted for them.

Maybe it would be easier to pretend none of this matters because these are not our children and the shirts will be cheaper.

Is there such a thing as national morals?

Robby

Drugs cross the border both ways.

Idris:--Would you expand a bit please? How are they determined? Who determines them?

Robby

What in your mind does your country hold dear? Is it not your Constitution and Bill of Rights and laws? Is that not what you believe your nation stands for. It contains your nation's morals. These are the things that make up your fibre as a people. Your ideals or morals, if you will.

Many Canadians also feel the same way about their Constitution, Charter of Rights and Freedoms and laws. We may not always live up to them but we believe in freedom and democracy. The individual counts and is held sacred.

Think of other nations in this world now and in years gone by. What do they, in your mind stand for with their Constitutions and laws? These truths and beliefs that we put on paper become what we as a people stand for...our morals. Yes, a country has morals. They stand for something even if that something in many cases in this world are perverted and corrupt. It isn't just that they are on paper, it is that we "hold these truths to be self-evident."

We know the United States is not a perfect country. But how many others can you think of that you would like better? There are still plenty of people who do their best to get into the country illegally because they want what we've got.

The amazing bit of news that fascinates me today is that Fidel Castro has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yes, they are coming to every democracry in the EU plus Canada and the USA. It is causing quite a problem.

It is odd, as Canada has just voted to keep Cuba out of the FTAA. Why? Because Castro simply does not seem to have a desire to put in any form of democracy.

MORALITY, God, Home, Love, knowing right from wrong and practicing it in front of the children , no lies, no stealing, respect for young and old. Shirley T.

Shirley T.........

AMEN. No one can put it any better.

Robby, (National morals).......

I really don't believe we can say yes to this at all. There seems to be a driving force behind (perhaps) most Americans (And the peoples of other nations) "Me first." If it (what ever it is) affects "ME" and "I" am better off for "it," and if "it" profits or improves "my" lifestyle. I'm for it. I do not mean for the Me's and I's to apply to myself. Selfishness, covetness, and personal gain seem to come first.

I'm presently viewing the news regarding legalizing, or decriminalization of drugs in New Mexico. Oh boy, are they ever opening a can of worms.

Shirley T's post rings very loud in my thoughts. Again Shirley, bravo. Oh how I wish these traits were of paramount importants in the attitude and thinking of the peoples in this great nation

Blue Knight, i can't help but believe that many countries in this world, most obviously including your own stand often on the side of your country's morals. Why else did we all end up in Bosnia, Somalia and on and on? What real reason other than believing a wrong must be righted did we go? Why indeed do we stay in the area of Bosnia when we know a Balkans war may be but days away again?

Nations like people do put themselves first but when a true evil presents itself, democratic nations send their young. Why would your country or mine do this, if it was not that as nations we wish to stop the murder and slaughter of people by rogue governments?

Many a war we have wondered about, but some there is no doubt that the nations that send their young to stop the evil do it because they are moral and wish to stamp out an evil.

Maybe i'm wrong but a nation's people cannot be moral if the nation they live in is not moral. It has to do with the principles of the nation and how the people see themselves. The court at the Haig has passed judgement on the leader of Bosnia as a mass murder. We were right to go and may well have to stay.

So many cans of worms, and never enough time to get the cover on!

Robby, way back when you asked about the violence in Romeo and Juliet, et al, this was an integral part of the story. Today in films and television, we see violence for violence's sake, portrayed as graphically as possible, but never with the objective of impressing on our young the horrors of it. Just ask any teenager or video game player, or better yet, listen to them talk among themselves about violence in entertainment. Remark most often heard? "Cool!"

While there is so much bad about our society, there is plenty of good that has been mentioned. The example of Bosnia is good, but I have another question. Why was not Rwanda deserving of intervention, or Somalia now? Are/were those countries too immoral to deserve our help?

I believe there must be some solution to society's problems, even if it means going the way of ancient Rome. Hopefully, it would never come to that, but who is to say?

Lou D, i hope it was because they were not part of NATO. I also have a feeling that many a "white" nation does not want to stick itself in a postion of killing people of colour. Maybe i'm wrong. What the heck do i know anywhoooo. I am just trying to understand this whole thing about morals and the questions Robby has raised.

I was listening to another radio program today on NPR and they were talking about young people getting into serious trouble with the law. The professionals in this broadcast said the highest rates of criminality were among the largest groups of the young. One of the answers they suggested was education. I take it this does not fit the high school shooting problem but rather troubled youth in general.

AESOP'S FABLE

The Crab and Its Mother

A CRAB said to her son, 'Why do you walk so one-sided, my child? It is far more becoming to go straight forward.'The young Crab replied:'Quite true, dear Mother; and if you will show me the straight way, I will promise to walk in it.'The Mother tried in vain, and submitted without remonstrance to the reproof of her child.

Moral Example is more powerful than precept

Regarding the question as to whether there is such a thing as National Morals, please consider what deTocqueville said in his remark above beginning "Manners are moulded..."

Robby

How worthy the cause to lose your child to sensless and immoral wars?

In a study of teenage rampage homicides, the following was found:--

1 - Little evidence that video games, movies or television encouraged many of the attacks
2 - In a decade that had a sharp decrease in almost all kinds of homicides, the incidence of these rampage killings appears to have increased
3 - Society's lack of knowledge of mental health issues, rather than a lack of security. In case after case, family members, teachers and mental health professionals missed or dismissed signs of deterioration.

The killings have their own logic and are anything but random or sudden. Of the 100 cases reviewed, 63 involved people who made threats of violence before the event, including 54 who threatened specific violence to specific people.

A forensic psychologist at the University of California at San Diego says: "These are not impulsive acts. They are not acts of affective violence, where they drink a lot and go kill someone. There's a planning and purpose, and an emotional detachment that's very long-term." However, there was often a precipitating event in addition to histories of failure and mental illness -- a spark that set off the tinder.

A professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine says: "You can see someone who is morbidly depressed for a long time, and they have a suicide plan in place, but the timing is determined by impulse."

What are we doing for the mental health of our children?

Robby

I promised Roberto that i would not speak about depression again, so i guess this lets me out. I still think it is a major part of the problem in these mass killings though. The pattern of thought, without mental health care is well known. Oops!

)

According to columnist Jeffrey Rosen:--

"As trust in traditional authorities declines, we are increasingly turning to law to regulate the kinds of behavior that used to be governed by manners and mores. In schools, in workplaces, in churches and in politics, our interactions are increasingly conducted in the shadow of legalese. We are becoming a nation of separate, resentful, legalized selves. The explosion of legalisms have become a substitute for moral debate."

Are we a confused nation mixing law with manners and confounding them both with our lack of knowledge regarding mental health?

Robby

I found this in my NY Times supplemental today and I thought it might be of interest to you.

7. In the Forums: "Democracy in America" ========================================

Members of the Reading Group can rarely be accused of undue deference to a classic. One reader, expressing disappointment with Alexis de Tocqueville's analysis of America, wrote "I fail to see this as the work of a scholar, but of a popular scientist playing into most of the previously held conceptions and misconceptions of American democracy." And several Americans in the Reading Group have reacted with instinctive cultural pride to de Tocqueville's comment that, as of the 1830's, "America has hitherto produced few writers of distinction."

There has been particular criticism of de Tocqueville's overview of racial issues in America. "I felt that Tocqueville wasn't particularly interested in the subject," wrote one participant, "and just slopped something together." But the book has its defenders, such as one reader, who writes, "To criticize this work in the modern context would miss the point." http://www.nytimes.com/books/forums/index.html?0316bk

Lou D, as you know Canada has few people in the military than Toronto has in its police force. We do peacekeeping all over the world. It is a very different sort of training than peacemaking. When we went to Somalia a group of peacekeepers tried to peacemake. It didn't work out very well and i hope they are never called on again to do such duty without first being prepared for peacemaking.

As you recall some of our men were tied to posts for days and taunted. Our military for the most part come prepared to peacekeep. They do the infrastructure thing, feeding, organizing a legal system...well you know.

Thank you for that, Andrea. As our Heading indicates, we are a forum constantly comparing what we see across America and comparing it to what deTocqueville saw and reported.

Robby

I wonder what Mr De Toq would say if he were aboe to watch C-Span's " New History Series," starting March 19th. It will look at the lives and works of 45 selected writers who have influenced the course of our nation's history and explore what their works mean to Americans today.

Robby, your question in bold letters in post 905 makes me smile....'cause it sounds like a statement to me, and I agree.

Columnist Jeffrey Rosen continues:--

"The vocabulary of law and legalisms is the only shared language we have left for regulating behavior in an era in which there is no longer a social consensus about how men and women, and even boys and girls, should behave."

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

While Canadians are not as litigious as Americans, we appear to be getting that way, mores the pity.

Just thought i would post this link about depression in teens and children. It will give you a very good idea why this fits the profile of the children in question.

teen depression

why my remarks seem at times to be misunderstood by some. In a previous post IDRIS had asked, "What is it that you do to help?" I can understand her question, since I had been listing things that I believe can be done, one on one, to assist youngsters. In answer to her question, I brought up my age, by way of explanation as to why I could no longer practice what I was preaching. Perhaps I should have said that I was now physically unable to, because of age and infirmaties, but that doesn't make my suggestions invalid. I certainly wasn't even implying that my age means I have more wisdom than she, or anybody else, for that matter. There are old fools as well as young ones. If my suggestions appear to be "abrasive", I think that is the problem of the reader, not me.

ROBBY's question about solutions is unanswerable. I've said before that there is little or nothing that can be expected through government. There are vested interests that are at the controls. It is up to the individual to help as much as is possible. I couldn't agree with CATHY more.

I've got a sign-off, a la MIKECANTOR, that I think would be rather appropriate, under the circumstances.

Special Interests Rule!

Bob C

Roberto, i am very sorry if i misunderstood your post. I am very sorry.

Misunderstandings are common when we deal with the written word and cannot see each other's facial expressions or tone of voice. This is why it is helpful if each of us address the issue at hand rather than the personality of other participants.

Robby

There are many aspects of the relationship between Crime and laws and morals which we are yet to touch, but as we continue to float down the stream of time and look out at the face of America, it is impossible not to pause and see a holiday known (if not observed) by almost every American. Saint Patrick's Day is for the "wearing of the green."

There are 5 million Irish in Ireland, north and south. There are 39 million Irish in America -- almost one out of six Americans claimed Irish ancestry in the 1990 census.

Are you one of those? Do you or your family celebrate St. Patty's in any way? How do you see the Irish as helping to make America what it is today?

Robby

While reading Andre Dubus III "The House of Sand and Fog" I came across this passag:

"Esmail's face looks like it did when he was a small boy, before he had his own television, computer, and video games, when he was still interested in stories of people."

Linda:--Television, computer, and video games are all inside, aren't they, while "people" are usually outside the home.

Robby

However, Linda, I like your quote. Maybe it won't be long until the pendalum swings back and people realize what the "experts" say is wrong and start raising their children by the "old ways".

Robby...isn't it sad that children don't have the carefree lives we had. It is no longer safe to let your children play outside. I only wish that one of my grandchildren had the freedom to ride his bike down a country lane. Thank goodness two of my grandchildren can still do this as they live in a town in Ne with a population of maybe 300.

Robby.......

You say and ask: "In a study of teenage rampage homicides, the following was found:"

1 - "Little evidence that video games, movies or television encouraged many of the attacks."

I strongly question this unnamed study. I counter #1 with: Video games, movies, and TV may not have caused the perpetrators to plan and carry out their murders, but the seeds of violence were most diffinetely planted by these three medias. Each kid had to have a screw (or two) loosened by several unhappy incidences in their lives, yet those alone would not have caused them to leap from a moral life to an immoral act. However, a thorough (in depth) investigation into the lives of each of these kids will reveal them to have spent many hours watching out of control violence via the media.

In the study I suggest, investigators should discover that each one of the kids had major family problems in the home. Lack of family love, and little to no attention to them by their parents would most likely stand as a glaring beacon. We all know that you can be very lonely in a crowd.

We have been speaking about various crimes and the handling of them by the police and other authorities. As we look across America, however, from time to time we see crimes committed by the police. It is not my intention to generalize here as I bring up the topic nor do any of us, I assume, want to make this a pro-police - anti-police discussion. I am quite sure that Lee would be the first to point out that there are some policemen who shouldn't be in uniform just as I will be the first to say that there are some clinical psychologists who should not be licensed. There are always exceptions.

Let us, however, examine what happens when someone who is sworn to uphold the law becomes a law-breaker himself. Perhaps Lee will help us to understand this.

In Brooklyn, NY, two police officers were part of a brazen robbery gang for several years, according to federal authorities, holding up drug dealers, plotting armed robberies of businesses and even using a patrol car and police raid jackets for a robbery scheme. The two officers became so reckless, according to court papers later unsealed, that they are accused of a crime sending shock waves through the force -- conspiring to murder a fellow officer.

What goes through the mind of a policeman who becomes a criminal?

Robby

Sometimes I think we are too reckless with our statements of conditions!

Let me go back and ask: What did Toqueville mean when he asked if United States was a prosperous/virtuous nation? We are a prosperous nation if one only counts dollars stashed away and invested. but not in terms of population wealth. Virtuous! That blew my mind away. Will someone give my an example of a virtuous nation?

I don't like being a critic in the country where I have my being, but I am not blind either. The question of our nation in the manner of mental health staggers me. What does a Country in good mental health look like? I truly don't know. Although I am NOT a student of history, can someone tell me of a nation in good mental health at anytime in our past history? Would Israel qualify? I don't think so.

As for the Irish, my Dear God, they have been fighting one another in a relgious war for decades. I will never honor the Irish by wearing green. How about a black arm band with a Shamrock on it?

Cathy asks:--"What does a Country in good mental health look like?"

Anyone want to give a description?

Robby

Sorry, Cathy, can't think of a single one!

I don't think there are any either.

Is the despondent approach regarding America and other nations exhibited in this forum an indication of how most Americans feel about America? Does the fact that no solutions toward strengthening America legally and morally are being proffered mean that there aren't any or that they exist but these solutions are still beyond our knowledge?

Columnist Jeffrey Rosen, quoted earlier, says that the fact that "there is no longer a social consensus about how men and women, and even boys and girls, should behave" has vindicated a prediction of deTocqueville. Rosen states that deT's argument was that traditional sources of authority are undermined by democracy -- that legislators would pass an increasingly mind-numbing web of laws and regulations, designed to eradicate special privileges and to prevent those in power from favoring some citizens over others.

According to Rosen, deT warned that these laws would run the risk of creating despotism of a different sort, administered by lawyers and politicians who acted not like "tyrants but rather schoolmasters."

Looking far into the future, deT feared that as individuals increasingly turned to the "nanny state" to regulate the most minute aspects of social life, personal interactions might be governed by a "network of small, complicated, painstaking, uniform rules." Citizens would eventually stop trying to understand or resist them, and increasingly large aspects of social and political life would be overseen by the American lawyer who would resemble an "Egyptian priest."

Was deTocqueville correct? Have we come to that -- a numb citizenry which knows nothing about nothing and looks to our "school masters" to hold our hands and guide us?

So we poor peons "who do not know how to behave" throw up our hands regarding solving the problems of crime, mental health, education, etc., drop on our knees, and plead with our "teachers" in the nation's capital to show us the way.

Robby

Robby, there does seem to be a law for anything and everything. The law invades everywhere. It tells us how we should think too. It informs us what is right and wrong in the most minute detail. Kind of stupid when you think of it and yet laws are formed by court cases brought. These form the case law that grows larger and larger with crushing results.

Government seems in the business of forming legislation that begets laws that effect us too. It is never ending. One can't fight the system anymore because one hardly understands it in its complexities. The regulaltion of thought and action is everywhere to cover every possibity and then some.

I don't know that this is what makes us unable to act when we know something must be done. Person to person sometimes works and that is where i put my hope. One can't move mountains though.

I did offer an idea/solution for beginning to tackle part of the mental health question. Post #784

It is a darn good post too, Betty. I went back and re-read it and it certainly makes sense to me.

The question is how do we get the information to youngsters. Most folks won't even believe depression can be that serious. You always get people who think you can just pull up your socks and fly right. It just isn't like that as my link to teen depression suggested. Full blown clinical depression is a terribly serious matter. We now have ways of treating it before the person does something horrible to themselves or others.

This is a chemical imbalance and not a snap out of it thing. There are also just too many people that see this as something to be ashamed of. That has got to stop.

This is Betty' post with her suggested solution.

Your reaction?

betty gregory - 03:34pm Mar 13, 2001 PST (#784 of 929) If a large percentage of those in prison needed mental health treatment and still need it...

If a shockingly high percentage of young people go untreated for mental health problems....

If parents and teachers think a child with a mental health problem is only a "bad kid" or a "lonely kid".....

If those children who had direct knowledge of that student's intent to bring a gun to school to kill people...could NOT bring themselves to get a fellow student "in trouble,"......

Then a massive campaign to demystify mental health problems, aimed at schools, parents, students, should begin. "Counseling," that mysterious thing that seems to be offered AFTER a shooting, could take its rightful place at the other end...when someone is identified with the first signs of mental health disease.

I don't know all the particulars between the beginning and the finish of such a campaign, but one fantasy I have is that a fellow student might possibly be persuaded to "help" another student by saying to a teacher, "J doesn't eat with us any more and he looked depressed to me and I think his parents just split up," as opposed to "getting someone into trouble" by saying, "J has a gun at home and he said one day he might bring it to school and teach everyone a lesson."

Betty

Sorry, Idris. You got in there so fast!!

Robby

Do you think anything will come about such as Betty has mentioned? I really don't see it happening. It should happen but somehow i don't think it will.

Personally, I'd like very much to address the new question, but which one is it? Questions come in so fast and considerable thought goes into each of my own answers, I post them, and then find a new topic has been presented. I'm old enough and secure enough to not be offended when there are no responses or additional comments, but I'm hesitant in responding to the police question as it will take thought and time. I can't help but believe that each topic should be exausted before moving on. Just a thought.

You are correct, Lee. If, however, a certain amount of hours pass and no answers are given, it gives the impression that the specific topic has been exhausted or that no one is interested.

It would be great if, in an organized way, we completely discussed one subject, then went on to another, etc. but the best we can do is follow the same procedure done in an informal sitting room conversation where, from time to time, someone throws in another comment.

Please feel free to give your thoughts about the "police" question. You are undoubtedly the expert here on that topic.

Robby

Blue Knight please just pop in and post when you feel you are ready to do so. This is a thread so we can always go back and refresh our memory should we have the need to do so. Boy, don't i wish conversation had a "previous" button sometimes.

I too would be interested in your professional thoughts on the matter.

Me, too, Lee! Post away! Your thoughts are well expressed and read carefully. You have interesting stories and ideas. Thanks!

Linda

Apropos of previous discussions concerning the quality of medical care in this democracy, I just came across an item in the news that almost caused me to fall off my chair while operating my computer. It seems that a surgeon who mistakenly operated on a man’s healthy hip five years ago, (rather than the hip he should have operated on), has performed surgery on another patient’s healthy knee, even though the leg intended for surgery was clearly marked “yes!” After the 1996 operation in which this same surgeon pinned the wrong hip of an elderly patient, the hospital required that its’ staff write the word “Yes” on any limb that was supposed to be operated on.

For Monday’s surgery, “Yes” was clearly marked on the patient’s problem knee, but this same physician operated on the other one anyway! In a letter issued by the physician, he said that he was embarrassed and anguished by the incident.

In what appears to be an attempt to rectify such errors, the hospital staff will now be required to pull a red hockey sock over the wrong arm or leg and write the word “No” underneath.

Were I unfortunate enough to be a patient in this hospital, my suggestion would be to put a large paper bag over this surgeon’s head and point him towards an open window!

Fortunately (?) not much attention is paid to my suggestions and the hospital did notify state regulatory agencies which resulted in a law suit being settled out of court. Terms of that settlement and of a state-approved disciplinary action were confidential. The physician has relinquished his title as president of the hospital’s medical staff and terminated his private practice in that city. Since the disciplinary action was confidential, he is now free to continue his misdeeds on other patients in other states.

Just add this to the ever-growing list of medical malpractice incidents which demand an equitable “patient’s bill of rights” which Congress will not pass!

Mike

If we lived in a society which did not embrace consumerism and keeping up with the Jones's. Would there be more time to care about our fellow human beings and "Love our neighbours" Would we be saved from some of our present day social ills?

I think we would! One can have peace within with very little material possessions!

Carolyn

Thank you kindly my friends, but I assure you I am not an expert. I AM just a guy with thoughts and opinions.

Ok, rouge cops. First, I must say that almost every police officer I have ever met, worked with, or supervised, went into police work with the same wide eyed, innocence that I had back in the beginnings. None of us really knew just exactly what would be demanded of us, and we wanted to hurry through the Police Academy so we could immediately go out on the streets and crush crime. A prerequisite demanded of every one of us was that we HAD to have reverence for the laws of our city, state, and country. Anyone with less desires or ambitions was washed out of the Academy when detected. The one thing that the written test, oral board, physical agility testing, and psychological interview could not detect, was an ingrained deep sin nature. Many candidates never made it to the Academy for various background propblems, were unable to pass the oral board, and many were unable to pass the psychological exam. There were those that actually told the oral board they would willingly shoot a petit (petty) thief. This was exactly what they didn't want, and the guy always failed the oral. You would be amazed at how many young people believe that shootings will rid the city of crime. They are looking for cool and calm candidates that are able to think on their feet, think fast, and will be able to reason with violent suspects (when possible) and not come up with a knee jerk decisions that would get the officer and the city into trouble. Make no mistake about it, an officer may have to make a decision to shoot in a nano second, and later, it will take the courts months to decide whether he/she made the right decision.

If you were to ask me exactly why a cop goes bad, I may not be able to give you an answer you may be looking for, but let's try. Let's look at a senerio of temptation. The cop makes a drug bust in a home and after cuffing the suspect he starts looking for evidence (this is leagal). As he searches the house he finds a few thousand dollars under a matress or in a closet, and because of the druggies lifestyle, he knows the guy isn't saving cash for a rainy day. The money most likely is laundry money and he knows it has been obtained by illegal methods. The cop is married, hasn't ever been taught how to manage money (this speaks for most young people, where ever they work) and is in hock up to his eye balls. In a moment of poor decision, he knows no one will ever know that he had taken 5 or 10 grand from the stash, so he jams it into his pockets. He goes home and now he is shredded with guilt, and doesn't want to keep it, but it's too late, the suspects money has been booked into evidence and there is no way he can put it back, so he HAS to keep it. If he tells his sergeant he will be fired. Now it becomes easier each time he's faced with right and wrong. He salves his conscience by booking everything the next time, but on other occasions he slips deeper, and deeper. Finally, he is so entrenched in his illegal activity that it is now second nature. Lousy, right? NO honest officer would ever have anything to do with this kind of guy and he is now scumb (to a cop). There is nothing more stupid or worse than a crooked cop, and they always trip themselves up. This is not Hollywood and they don't have a script to follow and they eventually get caught. Now, the whole Department must suffer because of the bad publicity.

I am, as Robby knows, retired form the Los Angeles Police Department. Thankfully, I never had one of my men go bad, but there were others, Not to long ago four cops went over the edge and one of them actually shot a suspect, covered it up, and even stole drugs. Please, it was the LAPD that discovered the illegal activities in the Rampart Division and they set up a sting and caught the guys and the rogue cops are, and will be, doing a lot of time. There are 21 seperate Divisions throughout the city, and Rampart Division was but one of them. The few hundred honest and good cops in Rampart have, and still are, suffering from the few that went bad. When I first went on the Department in 1956, I was assigned to West Los Angeles Division where the Department had discovered 7-police officers that were burglars and all of them went to jail. Every time I pulled a citizen over to write them a traffic citation, they would ask me how many garages I had burglarized. We all lived under this for a few very tough years. Are you folks aware of the high incidence of police officer suicides and divorces? Nice guys fall victim to the old "Women love men in uniform," and they come to think that the women that follow their cars and go after them in restaurants or coffee stops are true. No, it is a fantasy, and easy to fall victim to. Stupid? Yes it is. Weak? Yes they are. A cop has an argument with his wife over sex or money and it gets pretty heated. He goes to work and some good looking gal flashes her eyes and he stupidly thinks "At least someone likes me and cares for me," and after work he calls home and tells his wife he has to work overtime. The wife believes him because he usually works a couple and sometimes many more hours overtime every night. This is true of police work.

I also have to be very honest with my next scenerio and I hope I will not offend anyone. The push to hire men and women of color regardless of their ability to pass the tests I mentioned above, were hired above and ahead of young men and women with far higher scores. Some of these folks had to attend classes conducted by the police department that taught them how to pass the police entrance exams (these classes were taken because they had failed the entrance exam), because they were high school graduates of a pass no fail system. Let me give you an example of scores. A young black candidate finishes with a final score of 86, and a white candidate finishes with a 99. The black candidate is hired. This was the exact scenerio with the officers in Rampart that went bad. Now, please allow me to get out of what could well become a messy argument regarding race. Before the push to hire more people of color and women of all races, there were hundreds of black, hispanic, and women candidates who's scores were equal to, and higher than whites, and the hiring practices of the Los Angeles Police Department was 100% fair for everyone. Why do cops go bad? they are human and are hired into a profession they were not mentally equipped to handle.

Lee, thank you very much for your usual well-thought out and described-in-detail posting. I will refrain from any reactions at the time and hold off because I know many participants have thoughts of their own on this subject. I will, however, just say that your very last point struck me. "Cops go bad because they are not mentally equiped to handle the profession."

OK, folks. We see articles about this problem in the newspapers and on TV all the time. What say you?

Robby

I am aware that we have a considerable number of people who "lurk" (I don't like that expression either) in this discussion group but make no comments. Democracies belong to everyone. What are your thoughts?

Robby

May I suggest that as we continue our current sub-topic, an occasional viewing of deTocqueville's four quotes above about "Manners and Morals" may help us to have an overall perspective. I continue to be amazed at deT's astute observations of society.

Robby

What if instead of saying nation's are moral, i suggested that nations now recognize wrongs within their society and have a new awareness of a collective sonscience?

"A collective conscience" - an intriguing concept.

Robby

I think we are in a muddle because old values have shown cracks. In an attempt to become more just there is confusion. We are searching for new values commonly held and these are not necessary "religious" in nature. This makes sense to me as we now include many religions and points of view on what is "moral."

As long as I can remember I have looked upon Canada's Mounted Police as heroes and sooooo well uniformed. Maybe I saw too many Janette McDonald/Nelson Eddy movies. They, as depicted, were so handsome and dashing with their slick and mighty horses. (Sigh) Are they still very important in Canada's law enforcement? Please say YES!

Cathy we still have the RCMP. The sad fact is they have for the most part been dismounted. Horses are expensive to keep and train. We almost lost the musical ride a few years ago in yet another quest to control costs. The uniforms are still the same when they are in full dress on Parliament Hill and other places. Normally on the street they would wear the same uniform but in a light brown with black leather boots etc.

They are handsome still and beautiful. It now more closely resembles our new Canada with different colours and races. Even the odd turban. The women of course are a lot smaller but look just as spiffy, Cathy.

I can't think of a time in recent years when there has been a scandel but maybe i missed it. We are still proud of them in any event. Such a very long rich Canadian history there, Cathy.

)

BLUEKNIGHT'S reference to minority hirings, though I commend him for his honesty. It is a stereotype that has been an undercurrent in police and other types of employment that just won't go away. The implication that somehow minorities are not as intelligent as whites, because they don't get grades that are high is a canard. When one comes from a different culture, there are bound to be differences, but that doesn't make one less intelligent than another. One hears a lot these days of police stops being made, when the suspect is guilty only of "driving while black." There are so many offenses committed against minorities, not only by law enforcement officers, but civilians as well, that it boggles the mind. That is a major problem right there, a state of mind. We all have our mindsets as to how people should look and behave. Anyone who doesn't come up to what appears to them to be the norm is immediately suspected of something, whether there is basis is fact or not.

This applies to our children also. Everybody has a simple solution for complex problems, and they just don't work. Teach prayer in school, and our children will be fine. Recite the pledge of allegiance in class, and it will make little angels of children. Their chests will swell with patriotism, and their emotional problems will disappear. Let the teacher handle things in the class, and there is no need for parental concerns. Prevent teachers from teaching anything but the ABCs in class, or the country goes to hell in a handbasket. Blame TV, blame parents, blame teachers, blame children, and on and on. Guns don't kill people; guns do kill people. Dare to be different; don't dare to be different. Throw all criminals in jail and throw away the key; rehabilitate criminals, and all will be well. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

Bob C

I was, as many other Americans, effected profoundly by the O.J. Simpson Trial. I lost a good "hunk" of respect for the law at that time. It was so easy to see how money was the mover of justice in that trial. To this day his lawyers - such as Johnny Cochran, are considered heroes, even celebraties! The Police were made to look like a bunch of baffooms, which I guess they were.

I am not proud that I don't have awe and respect for the police, but I don't. Even in small towns, such as mine, there are rumors of corruption and deception. At election time for mayor, there are public charges of corruption on each candidate. There is no way an average citizen can get to the truth as to what is really going on. Too much cover-up! Even fear from harrassment by local, small town police can effect the willingness of citizens speaking up. (I hope I will not be sorry for speaking up here in my community.) They don't throw Senior Citzens in jail, do they!!!!!! :-0

Bob C:--Are you stunned by the attitude of many police toward minorities or are you stunned by Lee telling us about it? You, yourself, say he is being honest.

What we are doing here in this discussion group is describing America as we see it and what we see is not always friendly or compassionate or pleasant. deTocqueville speaks (quote above) about the evils that are inherent in Democracy.

Unless I have missed something, I don't hear Lee saying anything that would indicate to us that he, himself, believes that the ability of a cop depends on the color of his skin.

Since this forum started in July we have touched upon many aspects of America which were not commendable and, always following the principle of addressing issues not personalities, we have tried to describe America as we see it.

Robby

Cathy says:--"I am not proud that I don't have awe and respect for the police, but I don't."

Is that possibly sterotyping, Cathy? Does your comment cover all police with no exceptions? Lee went out of his way to emphasize that some cops go bad because "they are human." Do we expect all police to be super-human, to be absolutely pure in their motives and actions, and to be immune to all the evils to which the rest of us are susceptible?

Robby

Robby - it is easy to do sterotyping with one's comments. BUT I was simply telling when my admiration for the justice system started slipping. The latest scandle in L.A. of cops hiding or even destroying evidence in crime cases, of being on the take (their pay is not an excuse as they did become rookies knowing what the history of pay was.) We all know the slow, mistake-ridden work the Police did in the Ramsey affair in Colorado. We all have listened to the terrible mistakes made my New York police with shooting first and asking questions second. On and on it goes.

If a GROUP wants respect they must perform the duties of that group and correct injustices by bargaining with those in charge. Group respect is critical in law enforcement.

I have no idea how pure our justice system is, but it certainly performs badly in my estimation at the present time.

Cathy:--You use the term "justice system" which is much broader and I believe that Lee might at a later date comment on that after we have completed our discussions about Crime. deTocqueville also had many comments about the American judical system which includes not only the police but the judges on all levels.

Robby

In January the New York City administration agreed to pay up to $50 million to settle a lawsuit filed on behalf of tens of thousands of people who were illegally strip-searched after being arrested for minor offenses. The searches were conducted by jail guards in Manhattan and Queens during 10 months in 1996 and 1997. Many of the victims of the illegal searches weere first-time offenders who were arrested for minor infractions like loitering, disorderly conduct or subway offenses.

The money is in the process of being paid out to more then 50,000 people who were arrested during the 10 months. The lawsuit recounts several cases of men and women with no arrest record who said they felt humiliated as they were ordered to disrobe, lift their breats or genitals for visual inspections, and to squat and cough.

The city's Department of Correction has said that it adopted the policy of strip-searching all people arrested on minor charges "for security purposes." But a federal appeals court had ruled in 1986 that the Fourth Amendment barred strip-searches of people charged with misdeameanors or other minor offenses unless there was reasonable suspicion that weapons or contraband were concealed.

Robby

Roberto......

I haven't read any other responses as yet, but I would like to give a reply to your post. I would ask that you go back to my post and reread what I said. I am not finding fault in you my friend and I ask that you forgive me if I seem to be picking on you as an individual. However, the public does have a way of reading only those things they want to read and completely discount all of the story. I spoke of specific individuals that wanted to go out into our streets who would be required to make life saving decisions, investigate on scene accidents, murders, rapes, beatings, family disputes, child molestations, plus a myriad other very necessary and demanding investigations that requires a modicum of investigative intellegence that those particular candidates just didn't have, and for an individual, or group of individuals to mandate teaching people how to pass a test that qualified individuals have absolutely no trouble in passing. Not one of those people were, or are qualified, and the do NOT belong behind a badge. The liberal do-gooders in our society that can't understand this, want 77 IQ's in police uniforms, and I am not a bit bashful in saying that I want nothing but the most qualified to respond when I might be in need of help. Now please go back to my post (if you will) and read where I spoke of hundreds of black, white, mexican, and women, who were, and are as good and better than whites on the job. Please give credit where credit is due. I wouldn't want a "D" student passing medical school simply because he/she were of color and the med school HAD to pass them because their skin color made a quota, and neither would anyone else. Simply because we are speaking of law enforcement, there seems to be some sort of an exception, and this quota system applies to them only. Sorry my friend, police work is a profession, made up of professionals who, when any emergency arises, willingly place their lives on the line for the citizens they are hired to protect. As it is, we must constantly look for, and weed out the bad apples that happen to slip through the cracks.

Kiwi Lady, where do you expect to find humans that are not concerned with material things? Even tots as young as one year, or even less, show they want/need material things, and can prove very aggressive in order to obtain them. I doubt very much if you can convince many, even in New Zealand, to give up modern conveniences in order to help others and bring peace. Human nature being what it is, I am sorry to say that your hopes are not about to come true.

The number of posts do make it hard to remain on one part of the discussion, or continue in the same vein. But Robby, sometimes there is no answer to a post as some of us actually need time to sleep, or carry on with our lives. It must be a sad day when anyone lives only for a discussion, any discussion. I try to keep up, but there are other considerations. So my comments come in a little late most of the time, but many of us are still very interested in what others say or think.

Cathy......

Many times I have walked out of a court room after a trial where I had a knot in the pit of my stomach because we lost a case because of something the prosecutor either asked, or failed to ask or say during the trial.

The O.J. case was a sham from the beginning. The trial was NOT about O.J. or the preponderance of evidence presented, it was: Mark Furhman, did you at anttime in the past ten years ever use the "N" word. Mark lied, and they lost the trial. Mark Furhman happened to be an excellent detective, and his police and investigative work had never been questioned, just the "N" word. Was he wrong? Of course he was. Did it have one shred of importance for the guilt or innocence of O.J.? Of course not. What did the Jury forman do when their verdict was read? She stood up, raised her right arm up toward the ceiling with clenched fist. What was that? The black salute. She was saying: "We won." Justice? Cathy, they never argue justice, they argue law and foolish things like I just described. Judge Ito was primarily to blame for the sham of a trial we all had to endure.

Lou D:--"sometimes there is no answer to a post as some of us actually need time to sleep, or carry on with our lives."

I agree with you completely. I can't speak for others but, as for myself, I put in a 40+ hour a week in my profession, am active in the local Chamber of Commerce, handle public relations for the local symphony, put in some time in my vegetable garden, and because I live alone, make my own meals, take care of my pets, and handle house chores. I assure you that the Senior Net, while important in my life, is not my primary concern.

Robby

Thanks Lou.

Robby.......

What kind of weapons do they find in strip searches?

Sorry, dear sir, I just couldn't let that one go by. I've had to conduct hundreds of strip searches, and it becomes rather routine. In Los Angeles it was always funny when on rare ocasions we had to take a "female" to the women's jail to be strip searched by women officers. The scream always brought a smile (giggle) from the male officers who knew She wasn't.

Shame on me, I shouldn't have posted this (but I did).

BLUEKNIGHT, I've walked the walk, as a member of a religious minority group, and can scarcely begin to tell you how dreadful it feels to know that the only reason for being unacceptable for a job is because I didn't happen to be a member of the "correct" group. I certainly don't believe that anyone who is unqualified, for whatever LEGITIMATE reason, should be hired for any position on the basis of race or religion, but I did not understand that to be your point. I believe the implication of your post was that black people were hired even though they were unable to pass written tests with a high enough score, and therefore had a low IQ. A lot of these tests are slanted to the degree that tnough a member of a minority may be fully qualified intellectually, the tests do not take into consideration cultural differences that make these minorities unable to pass. They are not of lower IQ, but of very different backgrounds.

Despite the scandals that one hears so many times about police corruption and often outrageous behavior, I salute the thin blue line that keeps our country from falling into anarchy. There are always some bad apples in any group, and the police are no exception. My point is that conscious or unconscious biases must be eliminated in every type of employment, in order to provide a level playing field. If and when that happy day arrives, we will be truly a democratic country for all.

Bob C

I truly expected the responses you two took to the quality of police protection. Both of you are right in your defense of the police protection most of us have and should appreciate.

My point is: The police force is one body/group that must have strict intergrity in order to be affective. Too often we see the "putting on of the blue uniform" bringing out the "THUG" in some personalities. Is there any safeguards in place for those kinds of people wishing to use their authoritativeness to push people around and intimidate them unnecessarily?

In my view strip search should not be allowed. It results in the " giggling" of the searchers, and the acute unease the stripper must surely feel. Why not e-xraying instead? I think strip search should be resisted strongly, even at our peril! That process is an indignity that should not be forced upon anyone. The law enforcement community should guard against the thuggary that is always a danger to those in uniform.

These are the faces behind the settlement of what could be the most expensive civil rights lawsuit against New York City.

1 - One person was arrested for selling sneakers on the street.
2 - Another was pulled over for driving with a broken taillight.
3 - And another found herself in custody for arguing with a police officer.

And all of them, perhaps as many as 60,000 people, were arrested for minor offenses and illegally subjected to strip-searches by jail guards in Manhattan and Queens over 10 months in 1996 and 1997. This past January, lawyers for the plaintiffs announced that the city had provisionally agreed to settle the suit, pending the approval of a judge, for up to $50 million.

The illegal searches occurred after the city's Correction Department took over the processing of people who were arrested and taken to jails in Manhattan and Queens to await arraignment. The processing was formerly done by police officers. The illegal searches took place only in jails where police officers had been moved from correctional duty to street patrol.

Robby

Cathy.....

I gave the "exception" in the strip search of sodomites in drag. BTW Cathy, yes, the officers are looking for weapons, but the purpose of a strip search is to prevent drugs from going into the jail. Entrance tests cannot ferret out men or even women (regardless of race) who abuse their authority. We used to say (those many long years ago) that you could always tell a recruit because he walked leaning forward to the left (badge heavy) and his upper body sagged to the right (gun heavy). They grow out of it. I'd venture to say that 99+ % of all officers are true to the oath they take and have reverence for the law. The small percent that abuse their authority are the ones we hear about, and are the causation for increased pressures on the job for all good cops. My daughter, a nurse, who's husband is a detective on LAPD said this to her son just out of the marines, who wanted to follow in the foorsteps of a family of law enforcement officers: "Why on earth would you want to go to work where you can go to jail for doing your job?" Police officers are constantly being placed on the carpet for doing just that, their job. You folks may not understand my next comment, yet you may, if you set aside prior anti-police prejudices you (may) have. Two officers pull over a suspected robbery suspect because his (or their) car matches the description of a vehicle just involved in an armed robbery. The dispatcher on the hot line gives the description of two male blacks in a 1999 ford bronco, white in color and driving South bound on 88th street. The officers observe two male blacks so. bound in a white over gray bronco, s/b on 88th. They pull them over, and the driver says "You are only doing this because we are black." The officers check them out, find they are NOT the suspects. One has a traffic warrant and is booked. They sue the city and win because they were racially profilled because they were black. This thinking belongs in the dark ages. The officers were 100% correct in their suspicions and tactics. They were doing their job.

Please allow another scenario that I personally was involved in. An APB (All points bullitin) was broadcast on my police radio: "211 (armed robbery) just occured, she then gave the location as having occured in Venice division. I was working the adjacent division, West L.A. division. "Three male blacks in a 1965 Cadillac, black in color. My partner and I observed a 1965 Cad, red in color with four male blacks. We pulled them over, got them out of the car at gun point, searched them, found the weapons and the money they stole. Now why did we pull them over? The car was a Cad, and they were black. Police have to use their heads and not always rely on an initial description. Obviously, the witness made a mistake regarding the color of the car and the number of suspects. These guys were hot, and did time. Today an officer can't do what we did. They'll be sued for stopping a red vehicle when the description was black. Should you ask an oficer if he is willing to stop suspicious persons, the majority will tell you "No way." Why be investigated and even receive days off for doing your job. The tail is wagging the dog out on our streets, and you are far less safe today than you were twenty years ago. I've got another good one for everyone reading this post. You, a senior, are easy pickings for robbery, purse snatching, assaults, burglary, and a host of other crimes, because you don't pose a threat to those chicken hearted thugs our society is so willing to protect.

Robby......

Your 964 are excellent PC for any officer doing his job.

Cathy.....

More on strip searches. It's a disgusting job and no officer, male or female likes to do it. Orders are orders, and No officer will willingly NOT do it, for fear the suspect might have drugs and if they do, his toosh is on the line.

Roberto.......

The tail is truly wagging the dog. All people of ALL color (this includes whites) are prevented from getting jobs they qualify for. BTW, I too am walking the walk, and talking the talk. You know exactly what I am talking about my brother.

Various law-enforcement officials are trekking to New York City to study how the city was able to shake its reputation for out-of-control crime and become what the city's administration says is one of the safest large cities in the United States. Since the beginning of the year, at least 235 police departments, about 85 percent of them from outside the country, have sent delegations to the New York Police Department.

Officials from the department make their case, displaying charts and serving up statistics. They say that the New York city seen today is not the New York City of 10 years ago. Crime has been reduced to the lowest level it has been in decades, to where New York City now is "the safest large city in the United States." One of the regular presentors is a professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice who says that he sometimes feels like a seventh-grade social studies teacher as he gives civics lessons on the complicated network of courts, police departments and federal agencies that underpin American democracy."

As far as law in America is concerned, are we indeed both talking the talk and walking the walk?

Robby

Blue Knight what do you know about "no go zones" in certain ethnic areas? I am very uncomfortable with it but maybe it has something positive about it that i don't understand.

BLUEKNIGHT, when you say, "All people of ALL color (this includes whites) are prevented from getting jobs they qualify for." Are you saying that makes it all right?

That doesn't get to the root cause of, nor alleviate, the problem. It also doesn't justify the unfairness and injustice of such outrageous conduct. Discrimination for any reason is disgraceful, and wherever found must be eliminated. Then and only then will our democracy work at its FULL potentiol.

Bob C

I was well aware that the humor you express on the "In Drag" people caught up in a drug sweep. It does have a modicum of humor; yet, the awful humilation of having a strip search, to me, is unexcusable. I also must admit an admiration of Blue Knight I. He is a valuable contributor to this forum. No doubt! However, I am not comfortable with all the components of this issue.

New York has, according to statistics, reduced their rate of crime significantly. Much praise has been awarded for this reduction of crime! BUT what about the charge, also, that the man-on-the-beat anxious to have a favorable report by his pricinct in its "looking good" not report all crimes he could legitimately charge? In other words, he is "looking the other way" in some crimanal events.

I make these assesstments and questions after taking care of my laundry, hygiene of the home, and a good allotment of sleep.

Blue Knight is so right! We all have a life away from the board! That is why I get lost in the swiftness of change in subject matter,also. I usually can have only so many remarks go by, but I feel impelled to jump in.

I admire you all greatly.

I received an article in an email from a friend that I believe in a great deal. I don't know that many of you won't consider it just a "trivial pursuit, but I made a webpage of it. I do hope you will peruse it and whether you believe it or not is not important to me. We all do have our own opinion.

Common Sense

This discussion and gathering has taken on a decidedly and uncomfortable ultra conservative tone. A good mix of ideas is always thought provoking and opinions all over the board are the "norm" at Books and Lit, but posters with more liberal or (especially) moderate perspectives have all wandered away from this discussion.

I wonder if this is related to de Tocqueville's more conservative slant (from those qualified to know, not from me, who is not qualified to critique him)...or, what?

I would say that a discussion group that at one time leans toward "liberal" comments and at other times leans toward "conservative" comments is a forum that is being balanced, in the sense that no discussion will ever hew strictly down the middle. As I indicated in earlier posting, I am aware that this discussion group has a significant number of "lurkers" who post at times but spend much of their time just "listening" and thinking.

Could we call that Democracy in action?

Robby

Betty g, are you referring to the fact that some posters want law and order that makes you consider them "ultra conservatives"? Or just what is it that made you make that statement? I am truly curious, and am interested in what actually defines a liberal or a conservative.

Martex, that was so true! Thanks for pointing that site out!

Thank you, Lou.

I am also curious about what is a liberal or a conservative. Mainly, because I have always called myself a liberal but maybe I am really a conservative. I really don't see what difference it makes. I think we are a combination of both.

Roberto......

When you post..."BLUEKNIGHT, when you say, "All people of ALL color (this includes whites) are prevented from getting jobs they qualify for." Are you saying that makes it all right?" I quite frankly don't understand how you can possibly come up with this kind of conclusion.

I'm saying that anone that candidates for a job (position) regardless of their race, and they pass the written, oral, physical, and psychological (if required) and they are at the top of the list, they should be hired. Good grief my friend, my posts don't elude to anything but this. I did say previously, that when a white scores very high (for the sake of argument he's 98%), and the City Personnel Department hires a black, Mexican, female, indian, oriental, etc., that scored in the 70's and 80's before they hire the qualified white, then that's not only silly, it's downright illegal and they should be sued by the rejected white. I don't care if the position is for Janitor, the most qualified should be hired first.

Robby......

I know of several very good reasons as to how New York City has been successful in lowering their crime. First, they have the largest police force in the United States, and perhaps most of the world. The last stats I heard was 33,000 officers. That's one per block. Los Angeles has less than one per sq. mile. They most likely have implemented an effective Neighborhood Watch progam, a citizens commercial, industrial, and business alert program, plus a crime awareness program in the downtown high rise commercial districts. Police Officers trained in Crime Prevention could spend every waking hour giving talks on Executive Protection, business and residential Security Surveys, Lady Beware (anti-Rape) programs, etc. The "Key" to successful crime reduction is citizen awareness.

Adris.....

I can only give my opinion on a "No go" policy. It's other name would be: "Free reign." The tail is wagging the dog here. When the citizens in a given city can dictate where and when police can enter a certain part of their city, then crime wil run free. Allow a similarity. Back in the mid teens of the last century the Boston police department went on strike. Before the militia was called in, every crime that could be committed had been committed ten to fifty fold. That includes women on the street wearing furs, stealing out of stores.-

Martex.......

If you are female, I bow and kiss the back of your hand. If you are a male, I firmly grasp your hand in both of mine and say THANKS, I've added it to my favorites. You're my kinda citizen.

Betty G......

I have a fairly good idea as to what a conservative and a libral are, but where do you read "Ultra" in this forum? Like Lou and Martex, I would really like to know where you are going with your thought? Please understand, I honor your right to believe as you wish, I certainly do, but who, what, and most imnportantly, why?

I have nothing but admiration for you. I "get" exactly where you are coming from. I agree with you totally. There are bad apples in every barrel but that doesn't ruin the whole crop.

Thank God for the police force, the military forces, the school teachers, everyone in the USA. Always a few bad ones, but there are more good ones...

Jeffrey Rosen calls our attention to the fact that when deTocqueville came to America in 1831, American society was still vertical enough to have clearly identifiable social hierarchies. And, in an age when citizens had no doubt where they stood in the ruthless pecking order, interactions among different classes of people were regulated by a sense of honor.

The idea that gentlemen should behave honorably, for example, was an idea that high-status people traditionally used to differentiate themselves from low-status people. In a traditional honor-based society, like the Old South, if you were insulted by a social equal, you challenged him to a duel, and if you were insulted by a social inferior, you bludgeoned him with a cane. But under no circumstances would a gentleman sue another gentleman, because the honor code held that an offense against honor could only be answered by a physical attack.

DeTocquevill says (above) that Manners are lost and vanish forever as soon as the democratic revolution is completed. Have we now, in the 225 years since the creation of our democracy, evolved sufficiently to the point where we no longer need manners?

Robby

Manners? Not exactly a treatise on manners, but I would like to share something I received today that does relate to the subjects we have been discussing.

Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about, so we won't spank them anymore.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued. And we accepted their reasoning.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's a grand idea.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said we have no problem with that. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of children and then stepped further still by making them available on the Internet. And we said they're entitled to their free speech. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ The entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, illicit sex. And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just

entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.. ~~~~~~~~~~~AND NOW~~~~~~~~~~~~ We're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves? ~~~~~~~~~PROBABLY~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with...

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

That really says it like it is. We reap what we sow is right.

What I am talking about is designer clothes, changing electrical appliances etc every year. No one needs that! There are many people who do think like me and would rather support children in the third world than keep up with the Jones's!

Nearly all my appliances apart from this computer which was a gift are in good working order and more than 10 years old. Actually I have given away many of my small appliances as I never use them! I cook from scratch too!

When I was a young girl no one in my neighbourhood had much but what we had we shared. We did not need to lock doors and murder was almost unheard of. A double murder here in NZ 40 years ago was an absolute horror. The papers were full of it for weeks. But when the world caught up with us thats when it all went downhill! It does not say much for so called progress!

Carolyn

Dear Idris.....

The only way I can think of correcting a wrong is to go back to school and rest on an old method of teaching. Soooooo, off to the blackboard and..........

Idris, Idris, Idris, Idris, Idris, Idris, Idris, Idris. Ok dear lady, I think I have it correct now. Please forgive this old coot's incorrect spelling of your name.

My respects, Lee

Lou......

Good timing, and well said. What hurts Lou, is that it's true. To your tag I say: "EXACTLY"

In 20th Century America identity became far more open and fluid. You could choose who you wanted to be. American society became less hierarchical, the code of honor came to be as oppressive and patriarchal.

These changes had unintended consequences. Traditional hierarchies in families, schools and workplaces collapsed in the 1960's and the authority of parents and bosses came to be replaced by a group of experts -- guidance counselors, psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists and judges, who imposed social control in more therapeutic but no less confining ways.

At the same time law began to fill the social space previously occupied by manners and mores. The rights revolution of the 1960's had many noble achievements but in rebelling against hierarchical authority in all of its forms, it arguably threw out the baby with the bath water.

In the late 1960's, as the authority of teachers and parents came under seige, school discipline began to be legalized. The United States Supreme Court set the tone in 1969 when it upheld the right of high-school students to protest the war by wearing black armbands. Students, the court noted, do not "shed their constitutional rights to free speech or expression at the school house gate."

So now we have the traditional conflict in a Democracy between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. And the apparent conflict between running a Democracy based on law and running a Democracy based on manners and morals. Do you folks believe that law began to fill the social space previously occupied by manners and mores? Do you agree with deTocqueville's comment (see above) that Manners are lost and vanish forever as soon as the democratic revolution is completed? And what about Law? Is Law bad? Haven't we always prided ourselves that America is a nation of Law and not a nation of People?

Robby

Just because someone writes something doesn't mean i have to agree. There are those who blame Dr. Spock for this and that but not me. I am totally oppossed to people who strick their children or treat them in a disrespectful manner. As a child of abuse both physical and verbal i simply will not go along with that opinion. I never struck my children and i praised them to the hilt when it was deserved or required. Children live on love and need it. I was not a parent that allowed anything and everything but my corrections were well thought out and respected their humanity.

I disagree with almost all of the post in question and just wanted to post my disagreement to it.

I am also in my downsizing phase. The Salvation Army and Shelter for Battered Women have been the recipients of as much "stuff" as i could do without even though i still have children who visit home and require beds etc. These too will go one day.

One of the strengths of this discussion group is that we have always followed the principle of "disagreeing in an agreeable manner." When we get to the day when everyone agrees with everyone, then our forum has come to an end.

Robby

I just represent a different point of view on this matter and felt it should be stated by someone. None of the problems we currently have will be solved with simple solutions, to my mind.

Idris, that post (not my words, BTW,), was not meant by me to imply that Dr. Spock was the root cause of society's problems, but it does portray an example of how we got to the situation we have today. Correct or not, it does show that more than one thing brought us to today, and there have to be solutions to many smaller problems to eliminate the bigger ones.

It seems to me we start at the root of the problems. Waiting until children reach an age where they can't be externally controlled is the wrong way. We have talked about many reasons for all of this and one of our posters gave us a point by point. I tend to agree with her.

I'm not saying i'm right, i'm just saying that is what i believe part of the answer is. The Dr. Spock book was very good for giving young mothers pointers on illnesses. I found it very helpful for that. On the other hand my mother said it was just thick enough to beat some sense into a kid. Needless to say she nor my father were ever left alone with my children. I knew what they called correction and they sure as heck weren't going to do that to my children.

Can one sometimes say that "pretense" is a hallmark of civilzied interactions? An incident is recounted where a female student made a halting pass at the instructor in his office. As gently and firmly as possible, the instructor rebuffed it. After mentioning the incident to a colleague, the instructor was told he had to protect himself by informing the dean immediately. So he went to the dean's office and, to his embarrassment and that of the dean, reported the innocuous incident.

To protect the student's privacy, the instructor withheld her name. Neither the student nor the instructor had done anything wrong, but the whole thing had to be filed away in the event of future litigation, which never transpired because the student and instructor both pretended it had never happened.

Is such "pretense" being civilized? Is this increasingly difficult in a world where every glance and gesture can lead to a lawsuit?

Robby

Several posts back you mentioned the incredible numbers of police in NYC. I was rather taken aback that you said this coverage averaged about one policeman for every block in NYC. Did I understand that correctly, and if so, is that not getting pretty close to a Police State? To quote Tocqueville "What I find most repulsive in America is not the extreme freedom reigning there, but the shortage of guarantees against tyranny." Vol.1,pt.2,ch.5 I, personally, would find that ratio pretty close to tyranny.

Idris - I am with you on Doctor Spock, for what it is worth. I respected his kindness and gentleness toward children. He was my book-at-hand consultant when I was trying my hand as a parent. With the exception of one (who is not hopeless by any means), I am very happy at their out-turn. I urge you, Idris to continue to speak your mind on every issue. I always take the time to read your opinions as I do certain others that I won't mention at this time. I gotta go!

Cathy:--It was Lee in Post 980 who spoke about the numbers of police.

Robby

tempest in a teapot here, BLUE KNIGHT. You'll get no argument from me that those most qualified overall should be hired. Hiring in any field should be from the top down, and not be based on race, religion, or previous condition of servitude. To quote you again as I did before,"All people of ALL color (this includes whites) are prevented from getting jobs they qualify for." That sounded to me like a justification for discrimination, since it applies to "ALL". Perhaps it is a matter of semantics here, and words are subject to interpretation. That was my interpretation of your remark. If I am wrong, as you now state, I stand corrected.

Everybody can't be a phd in police or any other work. There is more to being a law enforcement officer than passing a test with a high grade. It takes a certain amount of humility, respect for others, sympathy and understanding of the human condition. Herman Goering would no doubt have come out at the top of any written test list for policeman or other position, but I think we'll all agree that he would have been a most dreadful choice. Smarts alone doesn't cut it, as you well know. It is important, but not everything.

Bob C

Thanks Cathy.

)

I will only make this point on Community Policing as i see, it in our larger cities. As you all probably know we don't have that many larger cities in Canada. However, in larger multicultural cities it is imperative to have as many police who not only reflect the community but understand its values and fears. Our larger cities make a real effort to make sure that as much as possible the police in the community look like and understand that community.

This may not appear as an asset or show up on a test but by gumbo it certainly is a treasure of information and ethnic understanding that no amount of book learning or testing is going to get you. There are skills and there are skills and some aren't testable.

The rapid growth in the immigrant population, particularly in places that have no experience with heavy immigration, has produced a national law enforcement challenge. Though slow to start, police departments across the country are now requiring officers to learn what is known as survival Spanish. They are also recruiting Hispanic and Spanish-speaking officers with offers of higher pay and bonuses.

And they are trying to sensitize officers who may harbor bias against Latinos or view them as an added burden. Complicating the situation in many places is the targeted victimization of immigrant Hispanics by armed robbers who have learned that some Latinos distrust banks and carry large amounts of cash. Robbers have also learned that some of the immigrants, mainly Mexican field workers and laborers, are reluctant to report crimes because of either the police or the Immgration and Naturalization Service.

Robby

Robby, we have found that in certain ethnic communities there is the presence of organized foreign gangs that work within these communities. An officer that looks like, understands the community and understands the language is essential to getting at the bad guys.

We also do not have enough of these folks and often the patrol is made up of two officers, only one of which comes from the targeted community.

We also have communities so new to our shores that there has not been time for them to educate themselves enough to get the required degrees but the police go into schools and have recruit sessions. It should not be long before these communities will be represented too. I just bet there won't be enough though. "It ain't cool."

There are other new communities where they think it very "low cast" to be a policeperson or a fireperson. In these cases there is nothing you can to but wait until the community is more comfortable with Canadian ways. One can't say they are not brilliant folks, so we wait.

“Do you agree with deTocqueville's comment (see above) that Manners are lost and vanish forever as soon as the democratic revolution is completed? And what about Law? Is Law bad? Haven't we always prided ourselves that America is a nation of Law and not a nation of People?” ------------- robert b. iadeluca

“The United States Supreme Court set the tone in 1969 when it upheld the right of high-school students to protest the war by wearing black armbands. Students, the court noted, do not "shed their constitutional rights to free speech or expression at the school house gate." -----------robert b. iadeluca

Robby, it is a rare day when I find myself in strong disagreement with something you have written, but I am sure that you will agree, as you have on a number of occasions, that disagreement is the life blood of this forum.

In response to deTocqueville’s comment, the democratic revolution which formed the basis for the creation of this nation, has never been, is not now, and will never be completed until the day when we are no longer a nation dedicated to freedom and justice for all. Should that black day ever arrive, than a popular expression of the sixties and seventies comes to mind: “Stop the world, I want to get off!” I am sustained by my faith and my indestructible optimism, that that will never happen! I will add that I am not dissuaded in that belief, nor should anyone else be, by the thread of negativism that I have seen being woven through some of the posts displayed here. The remonstrance’s emphasizing that “special interests rule” and that nothing appears to be currently in view that will change anything for a very long period of time, is confirmation that there are none so blind as those who will not see. The evidence is there and it grows every day that “People Rule” and that can be discerned by the naysayers if they will only look a little harder. The obvious shortcomings of what is going on in our current democracy support the statement that “People deserve the government that they get!”

The leaders we have are those that we, (collectively), put in those positions of leadership because of the unwillingness of too many to actively participate in the privilege of voting. It is somewhat analogous to the so-called war on drugs, which has been lost by a nation which is the biggest user of drugs as compared to all the other nations of the world but continues to play our the farce of expending billions of dollars wasted in an effort to defeat the problem, while at the same time, ingesting more cocaine, heroin and marijuana than all other nations combined on the face of this earth. But even in that area there are conditions of change, which are not generally known, but which are taking place, in spite of ourselves. But that is another topic.

I must confess that I have never before seen the statement that “America is a nation of laws and not of people!,” much less the added disclaimer that this is something we have always prided ourselves about! Robby, please tell me that I am misinterpreting your statement! My personal belief is that there is a real fear in government today, that the population at large will one day come to fully realize that the power of America is fully vested in the people rather than in the law and their power can, is, and will be awesome to behold when fully aroused. I also believe in the inevitability of that happening, perhaps sooner rather than later.

The example of the concession of the United States Supreme Court in upholding the right of high-school students to protest the war by wearing black armbands, while only a minimal example of the reality of power possessed by the people, is only the tip of the iceberg. Students, the court noted, do not "shed their constitutional rights to free speech or expression at the school house gate”. Neither do any of us who have the dedication to enter the voter’s booth and speak up for what we believe is right in America.

People Rule!

Mike

It is precisely because people rule that Canada and the USA are nations of laws. Without the law the people don't rule, anarchy does.

Mike: In answer to your question:--

The American Colonists adopted a system whereby, common law was to remain inviolate over the government. No one was to be above this law; thus the coined saying, "We are a Nation of Law and not of Men." This saying has nothing to do with the regulations the government enacts, it is completely in reference to the fact that the common law shall be enforced regardless of class.

Note that the word is singular - Law - not laws but the concept of Law. One of the French monarchs (I forget which) said: "La loi, c'est moi" - "I am the law." President Nixon found that this was not so. Somewhere along the line he thought that if he said so, THAT was the law. The Law itself took precedence over him as a man and he "resigned."

Let us keep in mind that the law which we must obey we ourselves create. We must obey ourselves. As Lincoln so aptly put it - a nation of the people, by the people, for the people. Yes, the People Rule by creating laws and then obeying them. We cannot go around willy-nilly doing what we want. The Law comes first.

Robby

My hat is off to Idris who said in a few brief words what I took four paragraphs to say:-- "Without the law the people don't rule, anarchy does."

Robby

I agree with that.

)

Oops, i meant i agreed with your post, Robby.

There are nations that do not have a codified set of laws today. Some nations have a codified set of laws that they do not pay any attention to. In most cases these nations find themselves in a state of anarchy more often than not.

Corporations will not readily invest in these nations as they are not certain that what they purchase today ie. land to put a factory on, will be theirs tomorrow. Smaller business people will not invest for the same reason. Without investment there is no way to produce a product to sell. If there is no product to sell, there are no jobs. If there are no jobs, people starve. All of this because there are no codified laws for something as basic as human rights or the purchase of land.

The ownership of land is basic to human needs in a third world country, just as it is here because without that no one can even put a crop in the land to feed their family, never mind sell the product for a profit.

Idris:

I can not speak for Canada, but if anyone is of the opinion that the laws currently being promulgated by the U.S. Congress regarding almost every aspect of our lives and that of those who will come after us, are in the best interests of the people, rather than in the best interests of the Congress and that fabulous group “special interests”, than I would respectfully suggest to you that a little anarchy goes a long way!

What the heck...it worked in 1776!

People Rule!

Mike

So, you look around the world and see other countries that are doing it better? You will get some control over campaign financing if the speaches in Congress today were any indication. Democracies never run smooth, they are too complicated. You can vote and determine which way you want to go politically.

You are the richest nation in the world with the most bombs. What you say goes and you are griping? Look around you and tell me where you would rather live other than another democracy. There are precious few of them in the world. We all lucked out and live in one or the other of them.

"Hope is the oxegen of the human spirit."

We live in countries of hope and promise. We have it good and can make it better for our young. If we fail it is because of us, not some politician in Washington or Ottawa.

Just to give you an idea of just how powerful the US is...The stock market is in trouble. Dollars from around the world flee to strength. The US dollar not only goes up but many nations around the world now find themselves with a falling dollar.

Canada'a dollar fell to 60 cents on the American dollar today. We will not be able to lower our interest rates because we need the advantage of a higher rate to bring in funds for our bonds.

At the end of this month the US trade group within the US government is going to slap countervails on our softwood lumber for starters. Why? Our stumpage fees are higher than yours but your lumbermen are screaming blue murder as our products are cheaper. Well duhhhhhhh yes, because our dollar is less expensive.

The tariff and countervails will be put on and the news media in your country will say we have "subsidies" on our products. Nonsence! We have a cheaper dollar and it will get cheaper if things in the stock market make our dollar of less value again.

You hold the big stick my friends. Stop complaining because you have no idea how good you have it.

Idris.......

You are 100% correct, at least by my standard of thinking. We have all been around the horn sufficient times to recognize that the people who make the laws are the law, and without laws that regulate our behavior, we would repeat Boston a billion fold.

Mike......

It's apparent we do not agree. I'm old school and strongly believe our nation is held in check by the laws we the people create. Yes, we reap what we sow, but your tongue and cheek "1776" is somewhat drastic. We both acknowledge there are men in office we do not agree with, but then, you and I don't necessarily agee either, but should we go to war over it?

Robby: (in response to your post #1006):

You seem to be making a distinction between the law which was to remain inviolate over the government and regulations that the government enacts. I will admit to having problems differentiating between the two. To my mind, enacted law is the harbinger of regulations, which must, of necessity, be applicable to both the people and the government with no exceptions in principle, if not in the details. What is illegal for one should be just as illegal for the other. And yet, our history, particularly in the last one hundred years, is rife with governmental transgression against common law which appears to continue unabated, unchecked, and without suffrage or consequence because of the unilateral decision of the government itself to make it so.

To illustrate the point I am trying to make, consider the fiasco of the Bureau of Indian Affairs being entrusted with the responsibility of the care and disbursement of revenues derived from resources and funding derived from leasing and other business enterprises conducted by them, for the Indians, on their land. Billions of dollars have totally disappeared, as if having been sucked into a black hole in interstellar space. Nobody, least of all the government officials entrusted with that responsibility for the last 100 years has the slightest idea how much is missing or where those monies went to. To their credit, the government finally decided to spend about a hundred million dollars on a computer system to resolve the problem. They just announced the other day that the program was a total failure and they still have no idea of how much or where the money is. Since this was a violation of law, as well as regulation, why is there no accountability for the perpetrators of those responsible? Perhaps the Indians should indeed consider themselves fortunate to be living in a country that the rest of the world envy’s for its’ opportunities, opulence and a system of laws, without which, anarchy would rule. Somehow, I don’t think that they do! To their credit, they remain within the parameters of the laws of the land and continue their fight for justice for the people, THEIR people. For them, anarchy is not a viable option.

It must be recognized however, that there are those among us who do not have the same reservations about anarchy! If anarchy is to be considered an abomination then the powers that be must accept the fact that changes in our democratic system need to be made, sooner rather than later, to accommodate the urgent needs of all of our people, not just the affluent, profit oriented, or politically correct. To do otherwise, is to invite disaster!

“Let us keep in mind that the law which we must obey we ourselves create. We must obey ourselves.”

Robby, exactly who is “we”? With only twenty five percent of the eligible voting population participating in elections, that would seem to clearly indicate that the remaining seventy five percent have been disenfranchised either voluntarily in an act of justifiable disdain at the available candidates submitted to them in the electoral process or as a result of apathy, I must continue to ask: “Who is we?” As has been repetitively suggested by others in this forum, “we” are the special interests who are really influencing, through their tremendous financial power, almost all of the current laws that come before Congress for consideration. The debacle of the last election could not have demonstrated that fact more clearly. I will never accept or believe that their control of the future of this nation is more valid than that of the ordinary citizen whose only wealth is in his love of country and his abiding faith in it’s future. The rising wave of resentment that is growing in this country with respect to the sinecures of leadership espousing and creating a society that is anything but democratic simply and logically will not go away.

Perhaps the truth that many are unwilling to accept is that democracy, as we have always known it, has changed. DeTocqueville’s vision of what he perceived democracy to be 170 years ago, while extremely perceptive is, for the most part, no longer valid. We are at a time that we must recognize that we must change with respect to our priorities and objective goals as well.

One final note! From the posts I have read so far with regard to my statements on anarchy, I wonder if some of you believe that I am, in fact, an anarchist in favor of anarchy to solve our problems. Nothing could be further from the truth! Too much of history has detailed the consequences of the anarchistic process. I have seen too much blood and death in my time given to preserve the basic democratic principles on which this nation was founded to ever believe that anarchy, in and of itself, could result in anything but chaos. The way of the law for the preservation of what this country has been and what it may yet become is the keystone of my political ideology. At no other point in the history of this nation has that ideology been as threatened as it is now and in this time and place. My message is simply this: if we, every single one of us, do not change to accommodate the ever increasing threats to the principles of freedom and justice for all peoples of all nations, than the very real threat of anarchy awaits us, just over the horizon! Attempting to maintain the status quo by believing that in time, things will improve by themselves because of who we are, is truly more anarchistic than anything I could possibly dream of!

People Rule!

Mike

Mike says:--"Democracy, as we have always known it, has changed. DeTocqueville’s vision of what he perceived democracy to be 170 years ago, while extremely perceptive is, for the most part, no longer valid. We must change with respect to our priorities and objective goals as well. If we, every single one of us, do not change to accommodate the ever increasing threats to the principles of freedom and justice for all peoples of all nations, than the very real threat of anarchy awaits us, just over the horizon."

There is often an intermingling between Manners and Morals (our current sub-topic) and Law. Individuals and nations can change themselves through legal means and they can also change their manners. What used to be trivial conflicts now find their way into court. Consider, for example, standards of grooming in public schools (which are an arm of the government.) A series of federal cases arose out of rules that regulated the way high-school boys wore their hair. The rights revolution gave way to what a Stanford legal historian has called a general expectation of "total justice" - the idea that courts could compensate individuals for every misfortune, social slight or general brush with unfairness or bad luck.

This trend accelerated in the 80's and 90's, and ordinary citizens found it wasier to challenge the authority of traditional intermediaries, like lawyers, doctors and teachers. A result was an explosion of legalisms, as vast areas of life that used to be regulatd by a complicated array of formal and informal social conventions became regulated instead by rules and laws.

The Constitution, the Law of our land, remains but we ask ourselves -- has our Democracy changed in that, as deTocqueville said, "manners are being lost?" Did we in those days operate our lives on more than just what the Constitution told us to do? Did the People Rule in 1831 following primarily their generally accepted Manners and Morals and now do the People Rule following primarily a complicated set of rules and laws?

If, indeed, we must change with respect to our priorities, should we again place at the head of our priority list, reverting society back to a "gentleness" where we dealt with our neighbor according to what the community "accepted what was right" rather than according to what the court "told us what is right?"

There are different ways in which People Rule. How do you folks think they should do it?

Robby

Robby re: "we dealt with our neighbor according to what the community "accepted what was right" rather than according to what the court "told us what is right?"

That sounds terribly dangerous to me. Who makes up the community? Do we end up with the have's determining what everyone else must do? Does one religious group determine what everyone else should believe? Must one be a certain colour, race or sexual orientation to fit in to this community that accepts their view of what is right?

The US like Canada, is now a community of communities and no one set of manners will fit all. The best you can do is try to form a collection conscience which includes all and go from there. Churchill said something like, democracy is messy but it is better than the rest. I tend to agree with him.

So as I see it, Idris, we have three choices:--

1 - Do what each of us individuals choose to be correct.
2 - Follow social conventions as set up by the community
3 - Obey the laws as interpreted by the courts.

The America that deTocqueville saw in 1831 was one where "Manners are moulded upon the feelings and notions of each individual, rather than upon an ideal model proposed for general imitation." and "Every man behaves after his own fashion."

Robby

Robby, i would suggest that #3 is the route to take. You can't go back to the way you were anymore than we can. I quite frankly thought the old way stunk. Look at all of the folks that got left out of the system and any sort of justice or freedom.

The old days were not good for many folks within our societies. We must move forward with the politics of inclusion. We can no longer cling to linear thinking but move to a messy circle. At least that way we are inclusive societies that accept differences. Eventually we will come to an understanding of what values we all hold sacred.

Growth and multiculteralism is where we are going and there is no going back to times of black and white ideas of what is right and what is wrong. That way lies disaster. Look around the world and see what "pure societies" are like. They are an abomination for the most part.

Just a friendly reminder of this excerpt from the Heading above:--"If you think primarily in terms of Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, etc. there are many political forums in Senior Net where you can share those thoughts. Our spectrum and deTocqueville's was much broader."

Robby

Cathy, i can understand your frustration over the last election but i would like to make a few points for consideration.

First, most nations do not have a two party system and we elect leaders of our countries where the leader never has some magic number of votes greater than the others. Indeed they often have far less votes than the combination of the official opposition and the third party. We do not see the government as illegitimate.

If, as i understand it, you are as a nation going through a period of "lack of confidence" then i say it is time to get this last election behind you. The world is coming closer and closer to a recession as the US pouts over this. Must we all suffer because of this? There will be hardship all over the world if your nation does not get back on track and lead.

You are the nation that leads the world. I may not like your enormous power sometimes but them's the facts. It does no good to name call the leader of the free world because it spreads fear everywhere. I certainly mean no disrespect to the people of the US, but it is time to move on and get on with the business of leading. People around the world will suffer terribly if this continues much longer. Some statements by your media about the leader of the free world are down right irreponcible and remind me of a kid having a tantrum. This is serious business and the world awaits.

Idris you always do such a nice job, sure would miss you if you left.

Robby, I see it as only one choice all within the limited freedom as the media continues to drive us toward wanting more laws on a national basis that are contrary to the individual choice and restrictive on the community. And now with Globalization who knows how to handle the Balkan thing? What is missing with all the comparisons to what deToc wrote, what is the effect of communications on bringing on the changes. Messages had to be written out, when you put it in writing you used to stop and think, since it would be a month before you received a response. You did not hop on a horse and travel a week to argue a point in meeting. The 1st amendment applied to the press and to the fellow with the soap box in the park. Today the telemarkers and polsters invade my privacy in the name of free speech and we have to pass more unenforcable laws. A child shoots up a classroom and the nation is stirred up, not that it should not be, but what results. Not to many years back the parents would probably have been tarred and feathered by the community. 65 years ago Holly wood was not recognized as part of California by those of us who lived to the north because of their moral standards. How much further will free speech extend this decandence.

Enough, can only be quiet so long then I need to put in my two cents. Enloy all the postings.

As you may or may not notice I had my last post deleted as I was having difficulty in editing. It was full of errors. I tried many times to correct them, but due to the editing program as it is now I found it very awkward to work with.

I guess by now, Idris, I am feeling very frustrated by our being considered the leader of world governments. We, in my opinion have a long way to go in the evolution of democracy. We are losing the criteria for even a representative democracy and no one seems to care.

As I am getting very impatient with our "editing" option I had better sign off.

Robby, if my last post was "political in the wrong sense" then i can delete it. There are times when i'm not sure what is relevant and what is too politicial. What isn't political these days? It all seems to be.

Thanks Camron.

)

Camron says: "Enough, can only be quiet so long then I need to put in my two cents. Enloy all the postings."

You just keep right on giving your "two cents," Camron, it quickly amounts to big money. As I have said in earlier postings, I am aware that there are numerous "lurkers" (I don't like that word) who come in on a daily basis and listen to the discussion but who choose not to give their thoughts.

Please!! Your opinions are valuable!!

Robby

I agree because it does no good at all to the fullness of the discussion to have just a few opinions put. The more opinions, the clearer the whole thing will become. If we are to form a consensus then all points of view are necessary.

With my temper back in control I would like again ask: Do not others see our "system" eroding to the point that our elections are becoming a matter who is the cleverist in manipulating the voters and their voting conditions.

I am sorry, Idris, I feel to overlook our last election irregularities is just another erosion of our freedom that we will regret in the future.

There is no static organization that does not require vigilance to correct the flaws that always seem to be there.

I feel we in United States are at a crossroads in our grasp of what we want our nation to be.

Cathy says:--"I feel we in United States are at a crossroads in our grasp of what we want our nation to be."

I have been following your thoughts, Cathy, but would you give us a statement on "what you want our nation to be?"

Robby

Cathy, all democracies in the world are at a crossroads. What we all decide to do will determine the future "look" of what it is to be a democracy. I am just as nervous about my own country and where we are going. In addition we have truly lost the right to govern ourselves due to our lowly position in trade agreements. That is a problem your nation does not have to the same extent because you pretty much tell others how it is going to be.

Still, i take your point and agree with it.

Robby - I would like our nation to make a reality of the "Melting Pot",not just a look good phrase.

I would like our nation to value all of its citizens and operate soley for their benefit. Afterall, that is what democracy is suppose to mean.

I would like our politicians to feel an obligation to serve its citizens over how to get elected again and the chicanary we all know is there.

I would like our candidates for president to truly be selected by the people, not solely by our elected politicians.

I would like to have our candidates to understand only so much money is allowed, and only so much airtime alloted to promote his candidacy . I would like campaign reform be more that just the bandaid reforms currently promoted by Senator McCain.

I could go on and on, but feel this enough to chew on now. I can come up with a much fuller list, but feel I need to give more thought that to extend the list now.

I always have believed in "putting my money where my mouth is", and herewith list only a very few of the reasons why I believe special interests rule:

Congress is now contemplating a ten billion-dollar appropriation for farmers. I'd say farmers do indeed have at least a little clout.

Latest ruling by EPA kills new standards for arsenic allowed in drinking water. Well, I guess a little more arsenic never hurt anybody.

Repetitive injury laws reversed. They cost too much. What the heck, it only hurts when they laugh.

Civilians hamper sub operations before colliding with Japanese vessels. Aw shucks, these civilians were entitled to have their fun. Didn't they make big donations to the "proper" political party?

Campaign funding reform? Golly day, who needs that? Got to get elected, you know. No easier way to do it.

Better change those signs on National Airport, so that they all read "Reagan National Airport," or there won't be funding for D. C. Metro. Why don't they just change the name of Washington to Ronald Reagan? Practically everything else is getting to be named after him.

What this country needs is lots of tax credits for the rich. Why not? Don't they pay practically all of the taxes anyway?

What this country needs is better relationships with "grass roots conservatives." The heck with those nasty other folks.

Animal by-products stil being fed to cattle in the USA. Shoot, Mad Cow Disease is never coming here anyway, and look at all the money we can save.

"Big Dig" in Boston: Costs being hidden. May now cost 18 billion, up from 14 billion, up from 4 billion. "Oops, sorry. Should have paid more attention to those math lessons in class. But shhh, maybe nobody will notice."

55 Russians to be expelled, after Hanssen spy case revealed. Might as well lock that old barn door anyway. Never can be sure whether those nasty Russians are still hiding there.

The Legislative Branch sure doesn't need the ABA's help anymore in determining qualifications of judicial candidates. They're just a bunch of lawyers anyway. What could they possibly know?

That's enough for now. My mind is boggling.

Special Interests Rule!

Bob C

Mike........

You write like a tall fella I know of that once lived in a log cabin.

Who appointed us (USA) the rulers of the world? Maybe no one else (country) wants to get blamed for anything. "Lets pass the buck to the good ol USA!! They may be one of the youngest nations but goodness!! They are so generous with the money and we don't even have to pay our loans back." (That is how I feel that most nations feel about us).

Other nations don't mind holding out their hands but they sure don't want to take any responsibility, in my opinion. I don't see the US government with a choke hold on them. I lived in Spain and in Turkey for 5 years of my adult life and traveled quite a bit so I may know a little about feelings towards the USA.

Very seldom am I at the keyboard of my computer as long as I have been today. Why? My strong feelings as to where we are heading as a nation.

My answer to Idris is if we are the world's example of a democratic society we had better get it right! I don't feel we are even close to be a model of democracy.

We have a strong media influence on our airways in USA and it is so easy to get into their phrasology. With their fascination with their perpetual polls and playing with our real feelings which very seldom get discussed. Very few of the media really "get" the public pulse. They are more concerned about the cost of media time than concern about the true question: What do you think as a voter in the so-calledAmerican equation? Very often they only ask a simple and limited question to serve their purposes on the Evening News!

Surely we are not so simple as to not see through the selfishness of each party and resent the rehtoric given in the name our citizenship. It is impossible for me to give, Robby, in just a posting or two what I would wish for our nation.

One last comment(at this time). I am hungry to see one, two, even three of our politicians devoted to serving their country rather than joining in the pursuit of strategy for their next election. We do not elect our candidates in order for them to plan strategy games to keep in power. We elect them to work for our benefit. What is so radical about that expectation? HUH?

I post this without worry of editing. I am that concerned that if we are the pattern for democracy, let us, for crying out loud get it right!!!

What Cathy would like our nation to be:--

1 - A reality of the "melting pot."
2 - A nation valuing "all of its citizens."
3 - A nation where its leaders feel an "obligation to serve."
4 - A nation where the leaders are "selected by the people."
5 - A nation where candidates are limited to "only so much money and media time."

Robby

Is what Cathy requesting impossible in a Democracy? Consider deTocqueville's comment (above) which starts with "In Democracies ..."

Robby

Again, comparing the use of Manners and Morals in society as opposed to the use of Law, consider the corrosive ways that legalisms infect the most informal interactions at school and in the workplace when traditions of trust and manners break down. In the TV program, "Boston Public," a teacher asks: "We should be fingerprinted because we work on a high-school faculty?"

The atmosphere has become so pervasive that it is transforming even the last bastions of traditional authority, where consensus about what sort of behavior is shameful still exists. A generation ago, if a clergyman was caught in shameful circumstances, such as stealing money or having sex with a parishioner, he would slink into the wilderness. Today, he might come back as a litigant. Now, churches who fire ministers for adultery or other misconduct risk a countersuit for wrongful termination, defamation or emotional distress.

Again referring to deTocqueville's comment above beginning: "In Democracies...," does Democracy contain the seeds of its own destruction?

Robby

I guess, Robby, de Tocqueville was right. America has been sewing the seeds of it's own destruction in the name of democracy! It is not democracy per se that is dying. It is the society we live in today which has lost it's manners. (Or would it be better to call it "ethics"? Manners does not seem to be the appropriate word in this day and age.)

We have seen posters refer to the past election, wherein some cry about the results. It is too bad that we must make this a political discussion, but may I add my two cents worth? Ah, never mind. Who cares about over 100% of the voters in some cities voting, or the dead arising to vote over and over, or felons voting? Ethics (or manners) be damned! It is their right to do so.

DeTocqueville was a prophet in his time. Free we are no more. I am amazed at how far-seeing he was.

I've missed some of the thread on the discussion, so I don't feel comfortable (fully capable) posting at this point, but I felt it necessary to ask what DeT felt about the Republic (if anything)?

Tomorrow morning i will be getting on a plane for Vancouver. It is 4,000 miles away. It may well be that tomorrow afternoon i will be sitting in a waiting room in a hospital awaiting the arrival of my first grandchild.

Could there be a better reason for this Canuck to want this world to be a better place? Could there be a better reason for my believing that we can save our democracies? May the world my grandchild grows up in a far better place than it is now. Can we say that we wish the world better for us who are older or those that come after us. The First Nations people talk about making the world better for the seventh generation and i understand the concept so much better this day than i have before.

From the far away shores of Italy, Wales, Germany, Ireland and England poor folks came to the US and Canada. Children were born and now the children of the children are about to give birth. From misery and poverty to hope and security in so few generations. I now will have a blood link with my American daughter-in-law.

The circle is complete and i am full of joy. For two months i have been teaching myself to draw illustrations for my tales. I wanted to give something of myself to this new life. Something full of magic and wonder for that is what all new babies are. They hold the seeds of hope and love. Is this not the reason we hope for a better world? Do we pass on something closer to the world we wish our grandchildren to live in or give up in despair?

I shall talk you all in a few days, after i have seen my first grandchild and the joy in my child's eyes.

I'm not willing to bypass Martex's last post........

I've long believed the world would be on the doll were it not for the good old Money Bank of the United States. It worries me silly everytime we receive a world ruler, or our President visits, or sends a delegate to visit another country. May I step out of forum character for a second by calling this give away program idiotic? Just who was the jerk that started this giveaway program, and who in their right mind believes for one second that giving OUR money away either makes or retains friends? Who's kidding whom? When these international panhandlers visit us, I always make mention to my wife, "Well, there goes another few billion dollars." Of course I also say this every time we shoot another elite joy ride shuttle into space. I am not at all convinced that those wasted dollars our presidents freely give are not without a hook. I ask this question of all present: Name one nation that respects the USA?

I'd love to see us refuse all of them for the next five years. Of course should this impossible wish be implemented, we would be threatening with war (remember the "Mouse that roared"?), or would be attacked on all fronts until we said: Frees X. The word "Isolationism" has been labled a dirty name by santa clause politicians. So now we have NAFTA, and our small businesses are suffering. I'd best stop, someone might think me negative

Lou:--We can call it "manners" as deTocqueville did, or ethics, or morals. They are all very different from laws.

This is the paradox of our increasingly democratic age. deTocqueville may have been more observant and astute than we realize. As traditional authorities find themselves under siege, citizens increasingly turn to laws and legalisms to resolve their social disputes. But when courts actually take sides in those disputes, they find their own legitimacy challenged by the losers, who disagree too violently with the rulings to accept them with good grace. (Remember that word and concept?) As a result -- here comes the paradox -- the one branch of government that society trusts to exercise its authority -- the courts -- loses its authority the more that it tries to assert itself.

Does democracy have the seeds of its destruction within itself? Is democracy already on the decline? Or, as deT says, "is the effect of democracy not exactly to give men any particular Manners but to prevent them from having Manners at all?"

Robby

I think the terms negative, positive, and self esteem are a little overdone. I guess I am considered negative, too, Blue KNight. Poeple that know me in real life would laugh at that. Maybe I think we are realistic, not idealistic.

Also, it would be nice if people would vote (back to politics) for the best candidate. I am neither democrat or republican. I vote for the best person, not the party. .

Bring back the Monroe Doctrine...(If I remember right, isn't that the law for isolation?). Long time since I was in school.

We know how totalitarian regimes handle the following -- cut off their head, cut off their arms and/or legs, stone them, banish them -- but how do nowadays democracies handle this? Use prevention through manners/ethics/morals? Use punishment through law? In what direction is the concept of democracy going?

Second San Diego-Area High School Hit by Gunfire

By CHRISTOPHER S. WREN

As many as seven people were injured today in a shooting at a California high school located barely six miles from Santana High School in Santee, Calif., where a student killed two fellow students and injured 13 others in a rampage earlier this month.

Initial accounts of the latest incident — this time at Granite Hills High School in El Cajon — were confused. But it appeared that a teenager armed with two firearms opened fire, shooting up to eight times and hitting at least one teenager in the chest. One or two teachers were also reported slightly injured. Details of other victims and their injuries were unclear.

Oh My!! I hadn't heard this. I have been outside more than inside today as housepainters are here. I believe it was Secretary of Education that just said the other day that schools are safer than ever. He better wake up and smell the coffee or whatever it will take to face facts .

Anyone thinking of home schooling? I do worry about my grandchildren and my daughter wh works at a school.

What is this world coming to????? All the discussion we do won't help a bit. If people are the government, what do we do? I don't think there is an answer.

"If people are the government, what do we do? I don't think there is an answer."

Agree? Disagree?

The Monroe Doctrine.

Yes, it was about isolationism.

As to yet another shooting there are answers and we have been discussing them. They go from mental health issues to getting rid of guns, to respect for each other. I know others have other ideas to put in the pot. These are the ones i would focus on.

Rats! Can't turn the underline off. Sorryyyyyyyy

Don't worry about it, Idris. These things happen from time to time.

Robby

We have been using the word, "Manners," that deTocqueville uses, as well as ethics and morals. Idris adds the word "respect." Do these four words illustrate what is supposed to be the foundation of democracy?

Robby

A couple of weeks ago, New York's new police commissioner, Bernard Kerik, was making the rounds of the city. A little after midnight he and two aides were driving along 42nd St., between Seventh and Eighth Avenue. But there were double-parked cars all over the place.

Mr. Kerik, who was in the back seat of his car, noticed some cops chatting on the sidewalk. He asked his driver to pull over. He was going to tell the cops to do something about the double-parked cars. A detective in the front seat lowered his window, beckoned to a sergeant and said, "Excuse me, could I talk to you for a moment?"

The response shocked the commissioner. An officer standing beside the sergeant said, "Hey, you want to talk to us, you get out of the [expletive] car and come over here. We don't {expletive] come to you." Mr. Kerik said later: "I thought my head was going to pop off my shoulders."

The cops on the sidewalk went into a kind of collective shock when they realized that the police commissioner was in the car. Very quickly, the double-parked cars were moved. But the incident didn't die there. Commissioner Kerik has been spreading the word to the top brass and ordinary officers alike -- the heyday of the abusive, arrogant cop is gone. He wants police officers to treat the public with respect.

Robby

Maybe more top brass should take ride abouts.

)

They do Idris. The Commisioner is wrong, "the days of abusive, arrogant cops are (NOT) gone." We still have the apples in the barrel. Anyone here ever been to Chicago? New York, or any of the small towns in trhe South? I'm sorry to say that there is a lot of work to do. What those kind of officers have never recognized is that they are SERVANTS of the people.

Civilian complaints against the New York City police have shown a steady decline over the past three years. Complaints of unnecessary force are down 16 percent since 1998. Abuse-of-authority complaints are down 20 percent. And discourtesy complaints are down 26 percent. Mr. Kerik said: "If you go back and look at the Police Department when we had 30,000 cops, I think there were about 41 or 42 fatal shootings per year. Now we have 41,000 cops and yet last year we only had 14 fatal shootings. But people's perception is that they're shooting, they're brutalizing, they're beating people -- it's not true."

Robby

Well, that says it for NY. What about Chicago, Los Angeles, and some of the other big cities? Do their rates of such incidences show a decline?

In the process of discussing Manners, Morals, and Law, we have, of necessity, been also discussing Crime. Would you place the following incident under the heading of crime?

A neurosurgeon accused by the New York State Department of health of operating on the wrong side of a patient's brain and committing other serious medical errors has been cleared on nearly every count and has had his license restored. The patient ultimately died. The Health Department expressed outrage at the decision, one made by its own hearing committee, and said it would try to prevent the doctor from resuming practice.

The case was extraordinary because the physician had lost his post as chief of neurosurgery at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in Manhattan in 1995 after he was accused of operating on the wrong side of another patient's brain. At that time, the state issued minor sanctions against him.

Was a crime committed?

Robby

Robby - in my mind I certainly would call it a crime. The nerosurgeon was and is guilty of reckless homicide. How could it be otherwise since it had happened before. Once a serious mistake has been made one would expect the surgeon to be very cautious and confirm again and again which side to operate on. Scares the dickens out of me.

I feel physicians and policemen close ranks and become the "brotherhood of silence"; thus, leaving the way for further reckless mistakes.

Now-I would like to have someone explain to me, since we insist we are a democracy, what public domain means. I ask this question because I have always understood that public domain means the public owns some lands and the airways. My question? If the public owns the airways why does not the public dictate the use of those same airways and why does not the public profit from that use. As we all know TV and radio stations are making unbelievable profit from the public airways. I don't understand! Why does not the public have a say in how they(airways)are used?

Sorry for my prior intrusion.

)

Robby.......

Absolutely not. The surgeon made a fatal mistake in practice, and judgment, and like so many other doctors who remove the wrong limb, or internal organ by mistake, have clearly have shown their incompetence. The medical board (commission) should revoke their licenses until such time as they have proven a renewed degree of competence by a decision of medical examiners. This process should encompass x amount of observed operations by a board of surgeons.

A crime is an act committed in violation of law. There was no law violated on the part of the surgeon. The suspension of his license, and the law suit will take care of the punishment.

I do not know the circumstances or causation for the medical board's decision to renew his license, and without sufficient evidence, I am unable to condemn the medical board.

Idris:-->B>"In my mind I certainly would call it a crime. The nerosurgeon was and is guilty of reckless homicide.

Lee:--"A crime is an act committed in violation of law. There was no law violated on the part of the surgeon."

How important definitions and connotations are when discussing law, manners, morals, ethics, values. Health providers term such action "malpractice." Lee suggests that the surgeon's licenses should be suspended until he has indicated a "renewed degree of competence."Does such a procedure exist in police circles when a policeman/woman shows incompetence? How about other professions in addition to medical and law-enforcement?

Robby

Lee! If I were to have a car accident and it resulted in a crippling of a person, I would be charged with a crime and have to pay for the infraction. Why not charge a surgeon for crippling his patient by recklessness? Through his reclessness he has destroyed a quality of life. I realize you were an enforcer of the law and not the maker of the law, but Lordy, Lordy how unfair can a law be and not have to account for one's action.

Robby - this is what I mean, justice in American is all screwed up.

It is interesting that my question on "Public Domain" remains uncommented on.

Robbie--

ref your message 1055, Was a crime committed (did I spell that right?)?

No, only if the Dr. intended to do the damage. But certainly malpractice to the extreme!!!!

I have a question to pose as we are discussing manners, morals, crime, etc.

Thinking about the recent school shooting incidents: What about the manners, morals, or whatever you want to call it of the kids who bullied and taunted the boys who eventually wound up exploding? Call it etiquette, manners, or whatever --when do we begin considering how what we do affects those around us?

The Wash. Post has a feature writer who covers traffic matters. They call him Dr. Gridlock. A week or so ago he printed a letter from a commuter who habitually picked up 'slugs' (for those of you unfamiliar with the term, a slug is a person who stands at an unofficial spot on the routes out of DC in the hope that some driver heading in his/her direction will pick him/her up and provide a ride home.) The reason the driver pickes up such folks is so that he/she can use the HOV (high occupancy vehicle) lanes. Anyway, this person was complaining about how his riders abused his car leaving a mess, etc.

This week there were several responses to that letter and EVERY ONE OF THEM SAID IF HE DIDN'T LIKE IT, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO PICK UP THE PERSON(S)! Not one felt that someone who was getting a free ride home had any obligation at all to be courteous and not trash the vehicle. That really made me realize just HOW far we have come from polite attitudes to others.

One more thing, and then I'll yield the floor (but I don't get here very often). When I read the James Clavell book about Japan (was it Shogun?) one thing that really impressed me was the fact that because Japan was very small, and very crowded, people went out of their way to be considerate of others.

About the airwaves, etc being in the public domain. There are laws regulating what radio and tv stations can broadcast, though they seem to have been watered down, as the federal communications commission allows vulgarity (in the guise of free speech, I suppose) that would have been unheard of years ago. So you see, Cathy, there are rules and regulations governing areas in the public domain, and government bodies to make and enforce them. And so I have read, the people are the government in a democracy. Therefore, it is our (the people's) fault that these companies are making those profits.

Funny, but somehow I don't think anyone has ever asked me, nor anyone I know, to help make these rules and regulations.

LOU - rules and regulations (legislation) can be made, amended, changed completely, phased out over a period of time and, eventually, done away with totally if people who feel strongly enough about them LOBBY hard enough to make their wishes known to their elected officials. And, of course, if there is a logical reason (supported by strong statistics of just plain old fashioned factual information that has not been tweaked by paid pollmeisters) for the changes.

Don't wait to be asked; if you care deeply about something, let your voice be heard. And if you REALLY care about something, get a bunch of like-minded people together and let your local, State and Federal officials know of your concerns. It is not necessarily "the people's fault" that so much of what we hear and see via the media has become so low-class, but more so that the millions of lobbying dollars from the corporate sector sound loud and clear above the voices of the average citizens. A good example is the pharmaceutical companies: American people really do care about high quality, affordable health care and medication (especially for seniors or others on limited incomes), but facing an enormous, billion dollar company can seem daunting. Yet there are thousands of people nation-wide who just will not let up until things change for the better. You don't have to stand on street corners or scream and yell and shout (unless you want to), but a strong solid communication blitz directed toward the offices of your elected officials will get their attention. So will personal visits by articulate people who know - and want the representative to know - that their vote put that person in office (or not) and as a citizen they are watching to make sure things happen in the right way. And if not, there will be NO second term. I've worked in and around Washington DC for more than 30 years and I know from personal experience that "the voice of the People can still be heard in the Nation's Capital."

According to columnist Alan Wolfe, Americans have traditionally relied on time-tested moral rules that command obedience and punish defiance.

1 - NOW we live in an age of moral freedom, in which individuals are expected to determine for themselves what it means to lead a good and virtuous life. We decide what is right and wrong, not by bending our wills to authority, but by considering who we are, what others require and what consequences follow from acting one way rather than another. America, according to Wolfe, has always experienced freedom, but only recently has it discovered moral freedom.

2 - In the 19th Century, principles of economic liberty were instrumental in creating a society in which the right to own property, to hire workers and to manufcture and dispose of goods was accepted as the most productive way for a socety to create and distribute its wealth.

3 - This was followed, in the 20th Century, by the spread of political freedom. By century's end, the idea that people had a right to vote and to run for office -- and that such a right could not be denied them on the basis of ownership of property, race, or gender -- had become wo widely accepted that no socety could be considered good unless its political system was organized along democratic lines.

Economic freedom led to political freedom which led to moral freedom. Are we evolving?

Robby

Robby........

Ah, but the two cannot be compared one to the another. A doctor that makes a mistake, or who may even have been negligent, must actually violate a given (written) law to be arrested, and tried. A police officer is sworn to uphold the laws of his city, state, and government. Any infraction on his part is a willful act. In so doing, the police officer has violated the law, and there are written consequences for his act. You see Robby, I am not arguing for or against either one, but I am arguing law vs. accident, mistake, or negligence, with the latter being the hardest to prove. Many doctors have been sued for malpractice, and haven't lost their license.

Cathy......

The doctor does in fact have to pay for his actions, IF the injured party sues.

If you were in a traffic accident and the other party were injured, there is a fifty/fifty chance you wouldn't have to pay a cent. You see Cathy, you may not have been at fault.

Our laws are most diffenitly NOT "screwed up" as you say. I would venture to say our laws are as well, or poorly written as yours.

Cathy, you say......."but Lordy, Lordy how unfair can a law be and not have to account for one's action." What unfair law are you addressing? We've already established that the doctor (surgeon) had not violated a written law. I say, thank good common sense that he wasn't illegally charged for a crime he didn't commit. If we were to throw everyone in the slammer for what we THINK is a violation that has not been written in the Penal Code, Municipal Code, or Vehicle Code, we'd be throwing our neighbors into jail because they gave us a dirty look.

jeanlock......

In the case of the Japaneese, it's called culture, and it dates further back to their overcrowding. You are correct, they ARE polite, very polite, until they visit the USA and then they are like all other tourist.

Robby......

"Moral freedom?" The way I see "moral freedom," is that we were not the first to discover this sick and destructive way of life. To mention three that slid from morality to moral freedom, to complete immorality, were: Sodom, Gomorrah, and Rome. There is a forth that has slipped from decency to immorality, They call us the United States of America. Guess where we are going?

Lee - my point in lamenting the law, as it now stands, is its indequacy of it applying to "like" qualities in other human actions.

If I were to sell a product that, in its application, were to cause human suffering and pain why would not the US Attorney General come down on me and charge me with negligence and fraud? Why does the law that would apply to me not apply to medicine and its practioners? Perhaps we do not enact good laws, we grow them. Lee, I am very much impressed with your insight and knowledge of the law. Thanks for your response.

CATHY, but I have to sing the same old song. It's called Special Interests. They control the PUBLIC DOMAIN. That goes for the airways, land use, forests, mineral rights, grazing, water rights, etc., etc. There are powerful forces at work all the time, that have the money and the connections that enable them to exploit this nation's riches, for their own benefit. It is naive to think that it is otherwise. Land is leased for a fraction of its value, so that profit can be made by ranchers. The airwaves are "auctioned" off to the highest bidders supposedly, but there's not a chance of a snowball in hell that anyone who doesn't have money is going to be able to buy in. This applies to just about everything in the public domain. It is a fact of life.

Bob C

I think I really knew all you just said in your most recent post. I guess I just wanted someone else point it out. You did!

How can we reconcile this "as it is" with the way it was "meant to be"? To me the only answer is: Keep the peoples' noses so busy with trivia, and we (the moneyed) can walk in and rob them blind.

Grrrrrrrrrr!

Robby - before you chide us for getting into politics let me first ask how one can realistically discuss democracy without discussing politics. IMPOSSIBLE! Let me quote: "I know of no country indeed where the love of money has taken a stronger hold on the affections of men, and where a profounder contempt is expressed for the theory of the permanent equality of property". Vol. 1, pt. 1, ch. 3.

If you think primarily in terms of Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, etc. there are many political forums in Senior Net where you can share those thoughts. Our spectrum and deTocqueville's was much broader. He spoke not only about politics but about art, poetry, the media, religion, men, women, orators, equality, liberty, associations, the law, physical well being, the family, wages, manners, business, science and many many other aspects of democracy.

Cathy, you ask: "Let me first ask how one can realistically discuss democracy without discussing politics." I hope that this excerpt from the Heading gives an idea of some non-political aspects of democracy, some of which we have covered since we began last July and some which we are yet to cover.

Rpbby

Moral freedom is so radical an idea, so distrubing in its implications, that it has never had much currency among any but a few of the West's great moral theorists. Even those who made passionate arguments in defense of freedom in general did not extend their arguments to moral freedom. Indeed, the common position among most Western thinkers has been to argue the necessity for moral constraint as a precondition for freedom in all other aspects of life.

Is that contradictory? As we look at makes up a democracy, does it make sense that we need to exercise constraint before we can have freedom?

Robby

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated: but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."

C.S. Lewis

Robby--

In either the Post or the Free Lance-Star this morning there was a column about just that (the content of the C.S. Lewis quote). Darn, wish I hadn't tossed the papers already.

Jean:--What is your reaction to his quote?

Robby

Robby--

My opinion? Why he's absolutely right, of course.

And that's just the pith of the article I spoke of---except that CS writes better. I've just remembered about the article. The author was using the Taliban's destruction of the Bhuddist statues as a point of departure and went on to give several examples of what idealism can lead to. He/she (I didn't pay attention to who the author was) pointed out that one group's believing in an ideal, and in their need to make everyone else conform to that idea is/was responsible for some of the great horrors in history--citing, of course, Hitler's belief that the destruction of Jewish culture, etc. was necessary for a pure Germany.

"One group's believing in an ideal, and in their need to make everyone else conform to that idea is/was responsible for some of the great horrors in history."

Jean has added another concept, "ideals," onto the terms we have used previously -- morals, laws, customs, manners, mores -- in discussing how we go about operating a democracy.

Robby

Although we have never successfully operated on an ideal democracy are we saying now that it depends upon the perfection of the Christian religion?

Cathy:--Unless I have missed something here, I don't recall anyone in this discussion group saying that the operation of a democracy depends upon the perfection of any specific religion.

Robby

How can one resist Communism, Socialism, Christianity and still maintain an intelligent argument for personal freedom and its creative possibilities. We are so managed that our brain power gets pocketed in stereotypical thinking? Geeeeeez! Bye, bye my lovely bird of change!

Personally, I find it amazing that man can hold any conversation regarding this fallen world without speaking of why it is on a fast track to imminent destruction from within each and every nation of the world, without speaking of it's beginnings, and the intellegence behind it's soon ending. Now why do I say this? Simply because man has never solved the worlds problems, and has a difficult time in handling his own.

As one who has had some considerable experience, on a personal basis, with medical malpractice laws, I must take some exception to some of the questions and responses that I am seeing posted on the subject. To begin with, The National Academy of Sciences’ Institute of Medicine, a private, nonprofit institution that provides health policy advice to the federal government under a congressional charter granted to the National Academy of Sciences, has issued a report showing that as many as 98,000 people die each year because of mistakes by medical professionals. In fact, more people die each year in the United States from medical errors than from highway accidents, breast cancer or AIDS. That venerable institution acknowledges, as well, that those figures are a conservative estimate. The enormity of the problem is of an order of magnitude that would be the equivalent of a 747 passenger aircraft barreling into the earth’s surface with a total loss of hundreds of lives on board each day, of each week, of the year.

Were such a daily occurrence of loss of life to actually take place, it would result in a hue and cry that would bring this country’s anger crashing down on the heads of those responsible for it’s occurrence resulting in massive corrective action to resolve the problem. Instead, what we have been witness to is a massive cover-up and a conspiracy of silence, financed by the profits of what passes for medical care in this nation today and countenanced and made legal by a Congress which has made itself subservient, once again, to the “special interests” who more and more are taking over the corruption of democracy in a manner directly opposite to what the founders of this nation envisioned.

The question asked that precipitated this discussion was whether serious medical errors, particularly those contributing to the patients death, should be considered under the heading of crime and, if that is the case, what should be the acts taken against the perpetrators of such criminality, which would be deemed to be appropriate to preventing their repetitious performance on other innocent patient victims.

The verifiable answer to those questions is, almost without exception under current law, that criminality will not be considered as a valid charge against any physician who has ignored through ignorance, incompetence, an unacceptable lack of professionalism or judgmental expertise, or simply caring enough about the patients right to the best care his physician can provide for the maintenance of his life under the sworn oath proviso of “to do no harm!” Most of the medical profession, inclusive of almost all hospitals and other ancillary aspects of medical care, manage to do this through the device of the legal prohibition of disclosing confidential information. Originally designed to protect the patient, it is now invariably used to prevent the medical practitioner, be he physician, HMO, hospital or state overseeing agency, from being sued! How can you initiate a criminal action if the alleged criminal is shielded by a legal wall of silence from revealing any of the actions, which precipitated the criminal act? In every state of the union there exist laws of medical malpractice defining illegal medical acts which cannot be used by the victims of medical practice because of the laws of confidentiality. The most amazing part of this about these laws is that the medical profession is the only profession, and I mean ONLY, which is entitled to use such subterfuge to protect itself. There is no parallel in any other business or profession, except possibly the FBI, CIA or other appropriate governmental entity, entrusted with the responsibility of protecting this nation’s security, which has any similar powers EXCEPT for each state’s BOARD OF MEDICAL EXAMINERS! While far from being the court of last resort in medical disputes, it is, at least, a place where citizens can go to file complaints about the care victims of medical malpractice or their surviving descendants can go to appeal for justice, right? Wrong! Of the approximately 100,000 patients who have died from medical mistakes each year, less that one percent of their physicians have ever been so much as suspended or been given letters of reprimand for their actions by state medical review boards. Of these, less than one tenth of one percent have ever lost their licenses to practice medicine and, of those very few that have, they are almost invariably still free to practice medicine in other states.

If there are any of you wondering at the largesse and generosity of these members of the Boards of Medical Examiners you should know that they are invariably OTHER DOCTORS! This is, in fact, the “good old boy syndrome” at its nadir.

Cathy, you ask the question: “How unfair can a law be and not have to account for one’s action?” I sincerely hope I have provided you with an answer! For those of us who have had to watch their loved ones pass away in an agony of indescribable pain as a result of medical malpractice, unfortunately, there are no answers!

People Rule!

Mike

Mike.......

God post. I'm so sorry I no longer have the web site that lists all doctors by area that have been sued for malpractice. I found one close to us and I stayed clear of him when I had my knee replaced.

Mike says: "Most of the medical profession, inclusive of almost all hospitals and other ancillary aspects of medical care, manage to do this through the device of the legal prohibition of disclosing confidential information."

When the New York State Department of Health said the physician had operated on the wrong side of the brain, it presented the case as rock solid. He had also been accused of making the same error five years ago.

But a hearing committee charged with deciding his fate saw things differently. It cleared the doctor of most of charges, upholding only one serious charge involving a spinal surgery.

How could there be such a disparity between a rare but serious set of allegations by the Department of Health and the ulimate finding of a hearing committee appointed by the Commissioner? There are quirks in the process of disciplining physicians that can affect the outcomes. For example, investigators must make determinations on complicated medical information. Many prosecutors do not understand the medical evidence. The panel that decides whether to uphold charges is composed of two physicians, who might identify with their medical colleague, and a lay person. And when one of those doctors shares the subject's medical specialization, that doctor's opinion often carries the most weight, which can sway a case.

Given this odd mix of interests and skills, it can be very difficult to strike the correct clinical and professional balance from beginning to end. Both doctors and their lawyers say that the pursuit of doctors has become so vigorous tht it inevitable that some of the Department's most high-profile cases may not be upheld.

No one but the three-person committee, whose members normally do not speak to the news media, can know for sure how they arrived at their decision (backing up Mike's comment about privacy). Perhaps the panel's doctors felt that having lost a year of practice and having his name besmirched was punishment enough for a doctor who, whatever his shortcomings, was not guilty in their opinion of the more serious charges.

So here we are talking about democracy and how it operates through Laws, Manners, Morals, Ideals, and Mores. Is democracy evolving?

Robby

Here is an excerpt from that report Mike was talking about:

"The startling conclusion shows at least 44,000 and possibly as many as 98,000 Americans die every year in hospitals because of medical mistakes, such as bad penmanship. Last October, a Texas jury awarded the family of a man $450,000 after it concluded that a doctor's illegible handwriting caused a prescription-drug mix-up that led to the man's death. The IOM report says these medical errors occur in every aspect of health care -- in nursing homes, retail pharmacies and even on the operating table."

In case anyone should get the idea that it is only doctors who are the cause of these deaths, we should set the record straight. And the report is only an estimate, from a low of 44,000 to a high of 98,000. Of course even one mistake is too many, but we should put this in perspective. The media account doesn't say how many doctors caused these deaths, or nurses, or pharmacies. It takes into account all deaths due to medical mistakes, whether by a doctor or other person involved in some aspect of health care.

When I see the loose morals, the "anthing goes" on TV and in movies, the children of some parents allowed to do anything they want, I wonder if there isn't such a thing as "too much democracy." Or have the lawyers just made a mockery of it? How can doctors get away with what they are getting away with?

Linda

When my husband died in 1985, his corneas were removed without permission. My husband would not have wanted them removed but they were. The mortician informed me of the fact. I found out that if the family does NOT say they do not want organs or eyes removed for use, they will be removed...Verner's Laws, or something like that. So much for the "organ banks" saying you have to give permission. That is a lie!! They take them if you don't say anything. I was a practicing RN at the time and didn't know this law.

I went to a well known news reporter in San Antonio and it was the source of an investigation but the eye bank was bigger than I was. Before all of this, I would have wanted any of my organs donated but no more. There are lies in every segment of our society.

Linda asks about "too much democracy."

deTocqueville says (see above) that "Every man behaves after his own fashion." and "In Democracies, no such thing as a regular code of good breeding can be laid down."

Is the concept of "too much democracy" not as silly as it sounds? What do you think?

Robby

Does my swallowing problem create a proven necessity for my feeding tube and the cessation of taking any food or liquids by mouth. The Doctors concern is resultant asperation pneumonia. Is it required because if I were to die from another bout of pneumonia and I did not have same he could be sued for malpractice? IE, not assuring I understood the necessity of having the feeding tube? Lawyers pursuing Doctors for malpractice, ambulance chasers. Like my wife died of germs in the hospital, not from leukemia. Do I sue every nurse who did not wash her hands before touching my wife. Do not misunderstand, operating on the wrong limb, clearly an error. Take his license away, and maybe the hospital's for no real time check on the on-going proceddure. Medicine is still an art, not a science. Is not the average age much greater today than yeaterday.

Camron--

Well said. I couldn't have done it as well.

On a Friday night after work, Bob was having chest pain, so went to Baltimore Gen. and had an EKG. They sent him home because it didn't show anything and they did not have his previous records to compare. (Now, I understand, anyone coming in with chest pain is kept overnight). Result? The next morning he was still having pain so I called his regular doctor who said to get him to the hospital pronto. Bob, being Bob of course, wanted to know if he could have one more cup of coffee before he left. Wish you could have heard the Dr's reaction.

The upshot of it was that after a week and a half of hospitalization, they began open heart surgery and he never came out of the anaesthetic. I've often wondered if I should have acted against Balt. Gen., but decided probably not. But I do speculate as to whether the outcome might have been different with prompter action.

News reports yesterday about the death of six patients in Colorado. It seems that brain surgery was performed on a man who had a disease similar to but not Mad Cow Disease; Creutsfeld Syndrome, or some similar sounding illness. The instruments used were sterilized, following this surgery, and were used again and again in other brain operations. The disease was passed on to five additional patients, before the problem was recognized. This is a disease where sterilization of instruments has no effect, since it is a prion, or comletely different category of disease. Where does the blame lie? Is it the physician, the hospital, plain stupidity? I've got only questions, no answers.

Special Interests Rule.

Bob C

A lawsuit was brought this month against a "home for adults" in New York State on behalf of 24 residents and the state's recent decision to revoke the medical license of one urologist who arranged certain surgeries and to suspend the license of another who performed them.

One by one, the residents were called down from their rooms at the home for the mentally ill and ushered into an ambulette. Over five days in January 1998, they were taken to a small hospital nearby. Once there, they were shepherded into the emergency room, many listless and disheveled, some so bewildered that they began to wander off before being stopped by nurses or guards.

Eventually, the residents -- some barely middle-aged, one nearly 80 -- were put under general anesthesia for an hourlong operation to shave tissue from their prostates. In most cases, they were operated on by a urologist who had never met them and did not adequately review their medical records. Health officials charged the use of "assembly-line techniques to mass-produce surgery," a series of procedures that generated tens of thousands of dollars in Medicaid and Medicare fees for the hospital and at least one doctor.

What are we talking about here? Illegal? Immoral? Unethical? Or perhaps very proper?

Robby

Something of major concern......

After retiring from police work I worked in two major hospitals in Los Angeles as the Security Director and what I'm about to say comes from observation and personal experience.

Have you folks ever noticed that operating nurses and surgeons walk out of the operating room wearing their so-called sterilization booties? They are supposed to wear them INTO the operating room to prevent bringing infectious deseases into the operating room. They are also supposed to wear new ones each time they return to OR. Do they? No they do not, they actually walk down the halls, go to the bathroom, walk to public elevators, walk into the cafeteria, and back into the operating room. Can you imagine what they track back into the OR? Recently, I wrote to the Editor of the Spokesman Review in Spokane, Washington suggesting his investigative reporter check into this gross problem. Doctors and nurses working operating rooms know they are wrong, but they have an attitude of elitist. We are all old enough to know of the problems of death and dying in hospitals prior to scrubbing.

Robby......

You left out Criminal. An act can be clasified as being criminal without being in the Penal Code. The doctors AND the hospital should be heavily fined, and the loss of licence on the part of the doctors. The hospital should be refused by Medicare to handle their patients. Stiff fines should cause others with similar thoughts to forget their dasterdly deeds.

I guess the only alternative is "do-it-yourself" operations and treatments. It seems we are stuck with the present system, and must hope for the best. Remember, doctors and nurses are humans, and subject to human frailties, including greed and the tendency to make mistakes, among others. Is a mistake a crime? Should it be treated as such?

Lee:--I'll go past that. I have seen physicians walk outdoors with those booties.

The moral debate continues as to who is authorized to decide who is eligible to do what. In America employers and schools are incrasingly adopting "zero tolerance" policies when it comes to violations of codes of conduct. The general collapse of authority means that society no longer trust employers and teachers to exercise discretion about whether or not to punish wrongdoers for technical violations.

In an effort to avoid any hint of favoritism, some schools have also abandoned "common sense." Last September, an 11-year old girl was suspended from a sixth-grade class in an Atlanta suburb on the grounds that the chain on her Tweety Bird wallet violated her middle schoool's antiweapons policy. Last March four boys in a New Jersey kindergarten class were suspended for three days after a game of cops and robbers in which they pretended their tiny fingers were guns and played at shooting each other. The District Superintendent said: "This ia a no-tolerance policy. Given the climate of our society, we cannot take any of these statements in a light manner."

Do you agree or not with deTocqueville's remark (above) which begins with "In Democracies, ...?"

Robby

I enjoy the longer posts, but, please, if you do have a long post, break it up into parahgraphs. That makes it so much easier to read!!

The easiest way is to hit the "enter" button twice right where you want to begin a new paragraph. (Here's where I hit "enter" 2 times.)

The line automatically goes down to here.

Thanks!!

betty

Doctors should be put before an independant body consisting of maybe a Judge and other qualified people. Evidence can be given by medical professionals and others to determine whether there has been negligence etc on the part of the doctor. A judge is quite capable of determining this in an inquiry setting not a court room. There is the old boy network all over the world in the Medical Fraternity and it is very hard to have a doctor struck off when being tried by his peers. After all these doctors are often being paid very big fees for their work! They should be held accountable for bad workmanship!

Carolyn

The United States Immigration and Naturalization Service has a long memory. We are deporting people who, at the time of their conviction, did not commit a deportable offense.

Take for example, this 21-year old fellow who had a 16-year old girl friend. The girl's mother was angry that her teenage daughter was involved in a relationship. She informed the police and the man found himself charged with sexual contact with a minor and given four years' probation. He is now 34 and married, has a son, and has never had another brush with the law.

Under the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, because he had a record, he was a wanted man. Immigration service officials stopped him at Newark International Airport as he and his family came back from a wedding in the Philippines. He was imprisoned for more than six months before raising bail of $25,000.

Even though his old girlfriend wrote a letter in his defense saying that the relationship was consensual, he is now fighting to avoid being sent back to the Philippines, where he was born and raised until he was seven.

He laughs sarcastically: "The motto of the Statue of Liberty in today's America is Give Me Your Tired, Your Poor, and Your Hungry because we still have empty jail cells." Although there have been many complaints from immigration lawyers and even I.N.S. officials about the harsness of the 1996 immigration act, America is continuing to depart immigrants who long ago committed crimes.

As we continue to discuss Crime, Law, and Morals, does the concept of Justice fit in here?

Robby

That question does not represent an opinion on my part, and I do not know the answer. The question, however, must be asked because we have become unaware victims of merciless and insidious American industries who purchase from our politicians their ability to poison our bodies without oversight from our government.

I beg you to watch ""TRADE SECRETS" tonight on Public Television. It is a 2 hour show starting at 9 here. Bill Moyers did the study, and then had HIMSELF tested for these man-made chemical compounds just to see if his own body had picked up any from our atmosphere. The results?

His body is packed with them! He had 87 different ones in his flesh; hidden in the meat of his body doing who knows What kinds of damage! These are chemicals made by MAN, not nature, we are talking about here. Released into the air we breathe, we cannot escape them and they are changing our health in every way imaginable and unimaginable.

Do watch! Perhaps if enough citizens do, we can arrange changes that will extend protection to the as yet unconceived. It is too late for us.

Mary brings up another aspect of Crime -- crime by corporations.

Robby

Robby - you are a psycholigist and I would like to ask you about patient/doctor confidentuality. Let me pose a hypothetical scenario question to you. If a patient of yours speaks of doing harm to another in his sick view of life do you feel honor bound to protect docter/patient confidentuality or do you feel the duty to report such a threat to law enforcement bodies? Do you have the protection of confidentiality that, for example, Priest have in protecting the confidences of their flock?

The landmark California Tarasoff decision presents significant considerations for mental health practitioners. Tarasoff was the 1974 court decision that set precedent in mandating that therapists/counselors have a "duty to warn" third parties about patient’s threats to harm them. On appeal, the court voided the the initial ruling California and gave California practitioner a series of steps in carrying out a "duty to protect.

I am not only "honor bound," I am required by law to report this.

I am dashing off to the office but will get back to you in an email on this important topic.

Robby

LAW AND ORDER, an hour long television show, dealt with this recently. They had a situation where a man told his therapist of his desire to kill his girlfriend. The therapist wrote her a letter stating that in his opinion this man posed a threat to her life and well being.

p.s. She chose not to take enough precautions and he did kill her.

I do have a question about logistics. if a doctor does remove his covering garments before leaving the operating room, then he is bound to spread whatever infectious agents he walks on or touches. If he doesn't remove them before leaving, he is still spreadind infectious agents. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

Bob C

MaryPage, you always get there before me. I was going to mention that Law and Order episode. But before I got to the Post a Message box, there you were already.

Well, it's all your fault, Jeannie! You're the one who insisted I should watch Law and Order!

Cathy:--I have just returned from my office and promised to send you an email regarding your question in Post 1105. It was my intention by using email not to interfere with the current sub-topic of Crime and Morals and Ethics but it dawned on me, based on many comments by others here in previous postings, that there is a definite connection between mental health and crime so I will try to answer your question here.

It has been emphasized often by many participants here that the United States is not a single entity but a federation of 50 sovereign entities, each with its own laws. So it is with mental health. Each state has its own Board of Psychology which issues its own rules and regulations and licenses practitioners to practice within that specific state. This means that the Tarasoff decision which I mentioned earlier is important to know but the most important thing for a psychologist to do is to know and follow the laws of his own state.

In my opinion, however, there is an even more important procedure to follow. I'm speaking of preventive measures. I make it a practice to have every patient sign a form at the start of our relationship, acknowledging that there are exceptions to confidentiality, the prime ones being danger to the patient him/herself or to someone else. In addition to that, if the patient has (or had) suicidal ideations, I will often have him/her sign a "contract" that I will be immediately informed if thoughts of suicide seem near to becoming actions.

On a separate topic, many of my patients are addicted to one substance or another and that is a whole different "ball of wax" falling under the Code of Federal Regulations, known to us familiarly in the profession as "42 C.F.R. Part2." This says, in laymen's terms, that you would have to have a highly specfic court order to drag information out of me regarding a patient who is an addict. Even a subpoena wouldn't do it. Many attorneys don't realize this.

I hope this answers your question, Cathy, and helps to show the importance of mental health in examining crime.

Robby

Regarding prosecution of crimes by the immigration service mentioned earlier, critics say that in many county jails, eg Louisiana, Texas, New Jersey and Florida, detainees and their lawyers say inmates are beaten, solitary confinement is imposed for trivial offenses, and water and food are often inadequate.

After scores of complaints and lawsuits concerning the physical and mental abuse of immigrants detained in county jails and other detention centers, the INS this past January issued national standards for the treatment of its detainees. The new standards, covering everything from visiting policies to grievance procedures, were phased in at all detention centers administered by the immigration service. They will continue to be phased in over the next two years at state and local jails that house immigration service detainees.

There are about 20,000 such detainees in jails and prisons, up from an average of 8,200 in 1997. The sweeping immigration act of 1996 and legislation enacted after the bombing of the World Trade Center have contributed to the increase in the number of immigrants detained either for past criminal offenses or for entering the country illegally.

Robby

Robby.......

Let's look at your new question realistically and not emotionally. The guy committed stat rape, a felony violation of law. Whether the girl agreed to sexual intercourse or not, she WAS a minor, he DID violate the law. The law does not stop, the man must pay for his crime. A man murders your wife (not really yours), you hate her, and the man is finally caught ten years after the crime. You go to court in his defense. Should he be tried for his crime? You bet he should. You can't unsound the horn. We cannot be a society of forget the laws of the land because we feel sorry for the criminal. Laws MUST run their course. The courts will make the determination of guilt or innocence, not the mob.

Again, we are a nation of laws. The people make the laws. We don't agree with them? Then we move to change them.

"We cannot be a society of forget the laws of the land because we feel sorry for the criminal.

How interesting (to me at least) in this discussion group that we see such concepts as law, manners, ethics, justice and morals interrelate. Now Lee injects another concept.

Where does compassion fit into the laws of a Democracy, if at all?

Robby

When compassion brings one to take the role of judge and jury upon oneself, I shudder to think what this nation would be like. Years ago Truman Capote, in his book "In Cold Blood", drew a picture of one of the killers that was very sympathetic, until he wrote the words the killer uttered "..right uo until the time I slit their throats!"

That particular scenario has stuck with me for many years, as Capote had portrayed the man as a syumpathetic character up to the time he revealed the killer's true feelings. I had developed a feeling for him, and what had driven him to the crime, until I realized my compassion was misplaced. So now I take a more jaundiced view of defendants, until the whole story comes out.

Just a thought--

Where do the statutes of limitation fit into the discussion of which crimes should be prosecuted many years after the fact?

Then, Lou, "when the whole story comes out," is there a place for compassion or -- to inject another concept -- forgiveness?

Robby

Lee says:--"The law does not stop, the man must pay for his crime. You can't unsound the horn."

But, Jean reminds us, what about the statutes of limitation? Does a person necessarily have to pay for his crime? Can the horn unsound?

Robby

Robby, I stated that when one acts as judge and jury in the name of compassion. Quite a bit different than after the courts have decided guilt (or innocence). Another matter entirely.

As for compassion or forgiveness, would not that be more province of the victim?

Is not compassion and/or forgiveness the province of everyone?

Robby

Robby

Not before one has had his day in court. It is not for me, or you, to judge others outside the law. Why would I have any interest in forgiving, for example, the two men who raped and killed the 10 year old Curley boy near Boston a couple of years back? I hold nothing but contempt for them, and others who take a human life while committing a crime. If the victim's family wants to forgive, that's fine with me, but it is not my decision to make.

OK -- all you "lurkers" who listen to our dialogues with fascination!! What are your thoughts?

Robby

Jean, I have heard over and over again that there is NO statute of limitation on murder.

Not being in "the law", I do not know this to be a fact first-hand. But I sure have heard and read it a lot.

maryPage--

I know that. But I was just throwing that element out for consideration.

Eighty-four prisoners were executed in the United States last year, a 14 percent decline from the 98 put to death in 1999. Is this a sign of a new sense of caution and skepticism about the death penalty among the public and our leaders?

272 people had been sentenced to death in 1999, down from an average of 300 annually over the previous five years. There seems to be a new hesitancy and skepticism on the part of jurors in giving out the death penalty.

Just what is going on here?

Robby

Perhaps a realization that human beings serving as policemen and jurors are fallible and send innocent people to their deaths. Perhaps a hesitation about playing God and extinguishing the life in other human bodies.

Perhaps we're regressing to where we were when there was no death penalty. I've never been able to even contemplate taking a life; and I can't think that one murder excuses another. Life without parole, I can live with. But I think cold-blooded killing by the state coarsens all of us.

Along the same topic--it really bothers me to see the relatives of victims in the courtroom expressing satisfaction at the severity of a punishment. I could never see myself as vindictive; I'd want the guilty party caught, tried, and imprisoned. But I wouldn't derive any sick satisfaction from knowing that party had been put to death.

Said beautifully, Jean! Clap! Clap!

In today’s news:

A bill is about to be passed in the Arizona legislature closing a loophole allowing the Board of Medical Examiners to license doctors who have been disciplined or are under investigation in other states. The board would also have to launch an investigation if an Arizona doctor’s actions elsewhere come under scrutiny. The legislation was inspired by an investigation last year that showed the board was ineffective at stopping the worst doctors from repeatedly harming patients.

Two Texas medical associations representing 37,000 physicians filed a federal lawsuit Monday accusing the nation’s largest health care insurers of fraud, racketeering and conspiracy by systematically refusing to pay for medical treatments deemed necessary by doctors. Medical associations as well as individual doctors filed a class-action lawsuit seeking to reduce the role health maintenance organizations play in the relationship between doctors and patients.

Legal analysts said that the lawsuit has the potential to revamp how managed care companies operate and how health care services are delivered. The allegations of Texas physicians are combined with similar complaints filed by California and Georgia doctors in Federal Court.

The lawsuits state the following:

Insurers illegally use their “monopolistic power for financial gain” by “manipulating and strong-arming physicians into denying medical care for patients”

HMO’s “utilize cost-based criteria” and not “medical necessity” in determining whether to approve payment for treatment.

Companies Offer “bonuses and financial incentives” to claims reviewers who “deny a certain percentage or absolute number of reported claims” by doctors and hospitals.

Insurers systematically “down-code” claims, paying for similar kinds of procedures that are less expensive.

The matter is already being referred to as a huge lawsuit with historic potential which will have an impact equal to that of tobacco, possibly even bigger because it impacts so many more people.

Roll on you mighty river!

*** PEOPLE RULE! ****

Mike

I'm in Lou's court. I'm NOT presenting this as men vs women, but we must admit that the two appear to see punishment through different colored glasses. There is no statute in murder cases and obviously there shouldn't be. Many states hold felony warrants longer than others, but my friends, law is harsh. court is not kindergarten, and convictions are brought about through trial by court, and from the verdict of a jury of the defendants peers. I ask you should O.J. be able to play golf. go to prison, or be in a casket? I believe he belongs in a casket six feet under ground. Am I blood thursty? I think not. Was O.J. blood thursty? You bet he was when he sawed the throat of his wife with a knife, only after stabbing to death an innocent bystander. Vengence is mine says the Lord. And He gave man the authority to judge man legally through the court system. O.J. stole God's vengence (if indeed it was required). The prison system is overloaded with criminals, not nice guys who deserve another chance to repeat their crimes before their sentence runs to fruition. When the courts sentence a criminal to 10 years he should serve 10 years, not two and out on good behavior (what ever that means). When a jury says life, it should be life. When they say death, it MUST be death. But, what do we see? Large groups of do gooders who really know nothing more than what the heard from the media, marching in front of the prison DEMANDING clemency and even release. Robby poses "forgiveness" for us to consider for further debate. I ask, Robby, who are you referring to? The courts? I say No way. The public? Again I say No way, The police,

When a child molester or rapist is released from prison, I ask, have they been cured? I would hope no one here will say yes. No, they are predators, and like any other wild beast, the will strike again. Are you willing to say: "I forgive him"? When a detective is assigned a homicide case he always starts with family members as the first suspects, unless the case says otherwise. I ask another question: Just exactly how are you going to "forgive" any of these people? Just exactly what do you mean by "forgive."

Nearly two-thirds of Americans approve of capital punishment, according to the latest polls. But that is the lowest level in 20 years and a significant decline from a high of about 75 percent in 1994. In addition, even the current figure drops further, to about 55 percent, when the polls offer life imprisonment without parole as an alternative.

When reminded about cases in which death row inmates had ultimately been released on the basis of DNA evidence, 64 percent of Americans favored a temporary halt in executions while steps are taken to ensure that the system works fairly. Statewide polls around the nation show similar numbers. Even some of capital punishment's staunchest defenders concede that there is demand for reforms. One prominent death penalty advocate, a professor at the University of Utah College of Law, said that "the public obviously is on board for fixing identified problems in identified jurisdictions," though "not on board for a permanent abolition of the death penalty."

The re-examination of the system has been prompted by a number of factors, including

1 - a decline in homicide rates,
2 - the barrage of publicity given death row inmates exonerated through DNA testing, and
3 - execution moratoriums originally declared last year by the governor of Illinois.

A Columbia University study, issued last June, found that two of every three appealed death sentences were eventually overturned, mostly becaue of serious errors by incompetent defense lawyers or the withholding of evidence by overzealous police offices and prosecutors.

Lee says: --"I believe he belongs in a casket six feet under ground. Am I blood thirsty? I think not. What do we see? Large groups of do gooders who really know nothing more than what they heard from the media."

Do the thoughts of the public expressed above have any importance? What is a "do-gooder?" Is the only answer to a murder by an individual another murder by the state? If that is not the answer, then what is?

Robby

that don't believe in capital punishment. To those that don't believe in the death penalty. Are you willing to pay more taxes so that more prisons can be built and psychologists can be hired?

I would wager that a lot of people that ask for mercy or forgiveness would change their minds if it involved their loved ones. What is that saying...."walk a mile in his mocassins".

I heard on a news program the other evening that even mistakes are made in interpreting DNA so maybe there are mistakes made all the way around.

Oh, by the way, how many of you that don't want the death penalty...are you willing to let the criminal live next door to you when he gets out of prison? I don't think so!!

Robby - I don't consider a death penalty murder because the punishment fits the crime. If the law becomes softer, then there will be more crimes never punished. Violence is on the rise and criminals get away with murder, life is becoming unbearable for the victims and their families.

One day my wallet was stolen from my handbag at a cafeteria and the cook behind the counter alerted the police who ordered the thief to give me back my wallet. The police wanted me to press charges. I didn't because what's the use. Petty crimes are NEVER punished and the victims often are.

A horrendous sex crime was committed on two teen-age girls by a man and his wife. The man got 'life', which means a few short years and his wife got a shorter sentence. Lately the courts wanted to release her on GOOD behaviour. The public went wild and demanded that she be kept in maximum security to the end of her term. They won.

If crimes are on the decline, the public should get a feeling of security which is not the case. Sentences should be harsher in my view. In large cities in the evening, the streets are empty. Fear of criminals is what keeps people indoors after dark.

Perhaps as we continue discussing this topic, a definition might be in order so that we can all be on the same track, so to speak.

What do all of you consider the definition of "murder?"

Robby

To the message about the little Payne girl? What a heart wrenching post full of truth. I wish it were still here...

Definition of murder? Probably different to everyone. To me: anytime a person loses his life due to the actions of another person, that is murder.

Martex' definition of "murder":--"Anytime a person loses his life due to the actions of another person, that is murder."

What definitions do some of you other folks have?

Robby

Martex - Sorry about that. It required editing.

Definition of murder - The taking of anothers life, with malice aforethought.

_________________

In July of last year 8 year old Sarah Payne was abducted while playing in a field in the quiet peaceful county of Sussex here in the UK. A man was arrested in January, and will be tried for her abduction and murder later this year. If he's found guilty, he won't be sentenced to death. We abolished hanging some years ago.

THE main argument against capital punishment has always been that there is no place for it in a civilised society.

A civilised society? Do they mean the kind of civilised society where an eight-year-old girl can be abducted, assaulted, murdered and dumped naked in a ditch? Is that what we call a civilised society?

I am not one of those who believe that hanging is too good for the murderer of little Sarah Payne. Hanging sounds just about right to me.

It wouldn't have to be hanging. There's perhaps no place for the noose in the 21st century.

So how about a lethal injection? Then Sarah's murderer could die peacefully and painlessly. Which is a far easier death than the one that small girl was forced to endure.

Nothing that anyone can say will ever make me change my mind about one fact - the killer of Sarah Payne has lost his right to live.

Lock him up and throw away the key? That would be letting him off lightly.

Why should Sarah's killer be allowed to die in a prison bed? She had to die screaming with terror in the back of a van or in a pitch-black field at midnight. Is that a civilised society?

Sarah's murder will soon fade from the headlines and the front pages. Her beautiful little face will eventually be replaced by some other beautiful little face photographed in another one of those heartbreaking school photographs that are so full of hope and so blissfully unaware of an unspeakable fate.

Sarah Payne will eventually be replaced in the news by some other tiny child who has been robbed of their life.

And while we all feel deep sympathy for her family, in the end their loss is not our loss.

Those who loved Sarah will never get over her murder. Sarah's killer has robbed them of any chance of true happiness. All those who loved that child have had their lives ruined.

So much misery, so much anguish, so many wounds that will never heal. Why? For a few seconds of warped sexual pleasure. If the liberal establishment were not so dominant in this country, we could at least have a rational debate about capital punishment.

Would it have saved the life of Sarah Payne? Could it save the life of other children? These are all questions that should be asked.

As it is, anyone who dares to bring up the subject is some kind of rabid hanger-and-flogger, slightly to the right of Attila the Hun.

And that dismissive attitude is an insult to the tens of thousands, perhaps millions, of ordinary decent people whose views have more in common with the Old Testament than with those of the Do-gooders.

When you see those heart-wrenching photographs of Sarah Payne at play with her family and friends, it is tempting to believe that something rotten has happened to us in recent years.

But the adults who get sick pleasure by stealing childhood innocence have always been with us. When I saw those images of the fields where Sarah was abducted, I remembered the fields where I played as a boy, and all those long, hot summer days spent roaming open spaces.

But even as I wandered those fields in the Forties, at the other end of the country there were other murderers stealing lives that had hardly begun. So we shouldn't get too sentimental about the good old days. The one good thing was that, if caught and found guilty, those killers would have forefeited their lives .

Everyone reading this knows there will be more children who will be robbed of their lives. That is a certainty.

The question is - what are we going to do about it? Our response to the rape and murder of our children should be ferocious and unforgiving. The ultimate crime deserves - demands, SCREAMS out for - the ultimate deterrent.

The other argument against capital punishment is that the law can and does get it wrong. It's difficult to refute that one. Men frequently get banged up for crimes they did not do, sometimes for decades at a time.

You can't give an innocent man back his life the way you can give him back what's left of his liberty. Yes, the judicial system can certainly get it wrong.

But by allowing sick, brutal men like the killer of Sarah Payne to die peacefully in their beds - or to wander our streets, casually and cynically evaluating your child or mine - the rest of us are getting it even more tragically wrong.

I don't agree with the "malice aforethough". If a drunk gets into a car and in the process kills someone, he didn't have malice aforethought, but nevertheless they are dead thanks to him.

I despise plea bargaining, too. I guess I am uncivilized. I say take them right out and string them up...like in the old wild west days. All these stays of execution that last for 20 years are ridiculous. Why does justice take so long?

quality of a supposedly democratic discussion here. At times I find the rhetoric to be ferocious and bombastic, with an "I am right and you are wrong" attitude. There is an attempt on the part of some to put in a box anyone who may have a difference of opinion by categorizing them, someone like the schoolyard bully, who must have his way or else!

Might does not make right, nor does one set of ideas become correct because one repeats them constantly. There should be room for honest and sincere discussion here, in a calm and deliberate manner. No one has all the answers to problems that have plagued mankind since the beginning of time.

I shall seriously consider whether I wish to continue to be involved in such a hostile environment.

Bob C

Alfie's definition of murder:--"The taking of anothers life, with malice aforethought."

Bob C says: "I am offended by the degenerating quality of a supposedly democratic discussion here. At times I find the rhetoric to be ferocious and bombastic, with an "I am right and you are wrong" attitude."

Unless I have missed something, Bob, I have not seen any posting where an individual has been taking a "me vs you" attitude. To begin with, this is an emotional topic and it would be almost impossible for such a topic to be discussed and have it be discussed "calmly and cooly." Secondly, this Discussion Group reflects what is going on in America day by day. This topic is being discussed regularly in homes and court rooms across the nation. We are on this topic because we compare what we observe across the nation today with what deTocqueville saw in 1831. For us to ignore such a topic would be to blind ourselves to what deTocqueville described (see above) as "democracy itself, with its inclinations, its character, its prejudices, and its passions.

No where since this sub-topic has arisen have I seen any participant here personally attack another participant. As to right and wrong, isn't that what a discussion is -- where I believe I am right and belief you are wrong?

Our approach in this forum has been for eight months now and continues to be that we can "disagree in an agreeable manner." Emotional at time? Yes. But as I have said in an earlier posting, when everyone of us agrees with everything that everyone else says, the discussion group is at an end.

I am sorry, Bob, you consider "Democracy in America" a "hostile environment." Please remain with us and continue to share with all of us your views and opinions as I hope everyone else here will do.

Robby

I might not use the word "hostile," but I kinda, kinda get the drift of what Bob is saying. I wouldn't attribute it to any poster, per se, though......

but this might be a good time, or I'm taking this opening from Bob to say....couldn't we please take a mental break from all the heavier, more negative, politically loaded topics. Pollyanna I've never been, but the recent topics that draw more fundamental stances keep the conversation at a elementary level. And, awfully negative. If we're going to honor different opinions, the discussion needs to be at a higher level.

Betty:--Interesting that you should say that because from time to time I receive emails asking that the sub-topics be less bland and contain some "meat" they can sink their teeth into - topics where they can have some scintillating back-and-forth discussions! Law and Manners seemed to be one of them. It came up because this forum reflects what is going on in America and the headlines talked about shootings in schools. And of course there is more to Law than murders. That came up as a sub-sub-topic. It also seemed to bring out some "lurkers" who hadn't been posting for some time.

Robby

Also in the news these days under Law, Mores, and Morals is the view across America about the legal use of marijuana. Alaskans voted two years ago to legalize the medicinal use of marujuana. Back in 1975, under a right-to-privacy ruling by the Alaska State Supreme Court, residents were allowed to possess small amounts of marijuana. In 1990, voters decided to recriminalize the drug.

However, private use of marijuana is rarely prosecuted in Alaska and, in interviews on the streets, it is clear that many Alaskans find that situation acceptable.

Do you belive that the general view in Alaska reflects the general view across America?

Robby

Hi everyone!

You know this is so odd because i just spent the last four days with a lovely lady who is my political opposite. As we moved about Vancouver on foot and by cab there were times when the questions put about my country and some of its practises made me very uncomfortable. I did my best to answer the questions truthfully even though i knew some of my answers would upset the lady. Truthfully even some of the questions upset this Liberal Canadian who is a middle of the roader here.

Yet, she was clear in actions and in words that she was so glad i was there for her at a few rather upsetting times over those four days. Our relationship as Grans is well sealed now but politically we will never see eye to eye. I do not wish to have another political discussion with her either. I still think she is a neat lady but politically we are oceans apart.

Canada is moving to an Alaskian point of view Federally very soon. Indeed, this was one of the minor less upsetting subjects discussed.

Does walking a mile in the other man's moccasins include those of the person who may have committed the crime?

If not, why not? Perhaps one would see things differently in those moccasins.

I lived in Oregon when we voted yes to medicinal use of marijuana for cancer patients and for chronic pain patients...with a doctor's written approval for use of, not purchase of. Unlike California law which allows patients to buy the marijuana, Oregon patients can grow their own or receive it from others, but not purchase it. This difference was an attempt to avoid the problems California was experiencing.

I notice that the Supreme court has accepted a case from...is it Arizona? (I think there are 8 states that have passed similar laws.) To decide if the states can have a law that supercedes the federal law. Is that right?

I approve of this use of marijuana and would have had my doctor's written approval to acquire it, had I stayed in Oregon. (Don't know if I would have reached the point of using it, because what I use now for pain works just fine.) I live in Texas now where nothing remotely resembling a bill to approve marijuana for anything will ever touch a senator's desk. Lightening would probably strike.

betty

ALL drugs are dangerous, not just illegal drugs.

There are over-the-counter remedies which are dangerous.

When a person's life is totally taken over by exquisite pain for which there is no relief, life becomes pure hell. I wish every lawmaker could be in THOSE shoes for just 1 hour! Just one small hour! They would be SCREAMING to make marijuana legal for doctors to prescribe. The irony is, it USED TO BE!

My mother died in terrible pain with cancer in 1970. I used to Beg the doctors and nurses to change her prescription and up the dosage, etc. Their response? "We are afraid she may become addicted!" Hey, these were the SAME people who told me she was going to Die and there was No Chance for her! Nothing else that could be done!

So why did she have to die in agony? Tell me why. I still tear up over the memory. If I find myself dying in agony, I think I'll make a noise the whole Nation will hear! Believe me, I won't just curl up with it and hollar, as my Mother did. I'll find the strength to make a Big Noise!

Mary Page....I don't know who was handling your mother's pain control but they certainly did not serve you well......This attitude of people with chronic pain becoming "addicts" is old hat...... People at the end of life or suffering with "cancer pain" do not need to be in this kind of pain in this day and age.....Pain can be controlled with good pain management.........

MaryPage, things have changed a lot since 1970, but not nearly enough, and not across the board. If you happen to get the right doctor and the right hospital, then you have a chance of being treated appropriately for pain....even though a hospital's accreditation is now supposed to be tied to (1)posting in several places a "patient's rights" poster about being treated for pain and (2) some measurement follow-up that I'm not familiar with to check to see if the hospital is listening to patients about pain. Sounds sort of flimsy, but I like knowing about it because I could certainly use that information at a moment I thought I wasn't being heard.

I'm afraid the latest news reports on the misuse of oxycontin by teenagers and others (and robberies of pharmacies) may cause a setback or slowdown to progress in treating pain.

The war on drugs seems to be losing some appeal. For decades, experts on drug addiction have argued that long prison terms for nonviolent drug offenders, many of whom are addicts as well, are less effective than drug treatment programs at reducing crime. They also say imprisonment is more expensive than treatment. The country's prison population has grown to two million and a quarter of the inmates are serving time for drug offenses.

Why are critics of the drug war making headway now? The answer, criminologists and other experts say, may lie in the waning of the public's fear of crime. Fear causes intolerance. People are more willing to put up with severe penalties for relatively minor drug offenses when crime rates are high.

Should the many drug addicts who are in prison be somewhere else?

Robby

jeanlock.......

You didn't say that, I know you didn't say that, you couldn't have said that, amd meant it. Must we all go out and commit crimes to understand the criminal mind? I served in law enforcement and the prison ministry for 11-1/2 years and I have a pretty good idea as to the criminal mind. I really don't need to commit a crime(s) to understand them. Logic is sufficient on the part of everyone here to know them.

You speak about the addicts in prison, Robby, but what about the dealers, namely those addicts who sell drugs to support their habit? Should they be in a treatment facility, where they will be free to make addicts of others, especially the young? Or would you have them in prison, where they could still get treatment but not engage in luring others into selling their souls?

Legalizing marijuana: I am surprised that the pain-reducing ingredients can't, or haven't been reproduced chemically. From my viewpoint, it seems many of those wishing to legalize the use want to be able to smoke the stuff. If it hasn't been found already, there must be a way to manufacture the painkilling ingredients, and keep them under tighter controls.

Lou says:--"What about the dealers, namely those addicts who sell drugs to support their habit? Should they be in a treatment facility, where they will be free to make addicts of others, especially the young? Or would you have them in prison, where they could still get treatment but not engage in luring others into selling their souls?"

Perhaps there are some facts I am not aware of, Lou. Is it indeed so that

1 - In a treatment center addicts make addicts of others?
2 - In prison they can get treatment?

Robby

A common sentiment today is that drug addicts need treatment, not incarceration. Most advocates of the treatment route view drug addiction as a health issue. The public policy view is that we should treat drug abuses as health problems, not law enforcement problems.

Advocates claim that the drug addict lacks control over the commission of the offense, thus they do not benefit from, nor are they deterred by, punishment through inacarceration. The threat of imprisonment has no effect on a drug addict because the compulsions and threat of withdrawal that are elemtnts of addiction far outweigh any consequences a drug addict may face for the commission of these acts.

Robby

Lou D, the little I know about the attempt to produce a pill form of the marijuana....they did and it didn't work. I don't accept that, however, and feel the same as you, that surely, it could be done. Seems like the big pharmaceuticals would want to pursue this and I'm not sure why they haven't. Or, if they have, why they have given up. I understand that something in marijuana works to combat the upset stomach after chemotherapy better than any other medicine. Am I just behind in the news on this? Is there something that works even better now? And what about AIDS patients that say it saved their lives...in that it is the only substance that combats the hunger loss.

“The war on drugs seems to be losing some appeal.” ----------robert b. iadeluca

Robby, there is no war on drugs! What passed for a dedicated effort to combat the drug epidemic is over. We lost!

When, as a nation, we consume more drugs of every description, than all the other nations of the world put together, than we only become the subject of amusement and derision of other countries when we vociferously proclaim our intent to fight a drug war. Interdiction in other nations, education, and billions of dollars squandered on assisting other nations to combat the problem at its’ source have been total and complete failures. The source of the drugs has never been the problem. The market demand in the United States was, is now, and will continue to be the major problem in the continued expansion of the drug culture in the future unless and until we make radical changes in the criminal justice system and some that which we hold sacred as basic pillars of the democratic process. Those changes, to the consternation of those who are unwilling to recognize the necessity for changing the vision of democracy from what it was, to what it must become, to survive the attacks of its’ enemies and detractors, are the only solution to the problem.

The basic issue is this: while there are many problems in our society which lean towards resolution via compromise, negotiation, punitive incarceration, education, and many other conscionable and reasonable approaches based on forbearance and mutual respect, combating the endemic problems associated with fighting drugs is not one of them. If we would be victorious in that area, we must change our attitude towards capital punishment.

We are in the process of losing, not only generations of adults, but our most precious national treasure, the children of America, without which there will be no future for any of us or our heirs, to those who profit from the sale of narcotic drugs. For those found guilty of committing that heinous crime on an extended scale, the punishment must be made to be of such an order of magnitude that it will bring terror to the minds of those planning to participate in that enterprise. I sincerely believe, and I know that I will be condemned by those who do not share that belief, that such response is the only weapon that we have left. If there are those well meaning souls out there who have a better answer, my prayer is that you are correct and that I am wrong.

In some Middle East countries, capital criminal acts such as the sale of narcotics are still subject to dismemberment, either by decapitation or by the removal of an arm or leg. Should the perpetrator be foolhardy enough to attempt to commit the same crime again, then a second limb is removed. Barbaric and inhumane? Of course! But guess what? Those countries utilizing that form of punishment do not have a drug problem! Please save your shocked remonstrances at my suggestion. I am not foolhardy enough to suggest that as a viable alternative punishment for any crime in any nation, democratic or otherwise. But does it not give one pause to wonder at the potential for retribution of the criminal act of selling drugs, particularly to children, that must go through the mind of one who is pondering the commission of such a crime?? I think it does!

The variable nuances of bringing about a punishment the nature of which, while not that severe, but which would still remain applicable in what we deem to be a civilized society, would take more time and space than is available here. Instead I would like to relate a true story, recently appearing on TV, that could be considered a viable alternative but is not being implemented except for only one woman who happens to be a Judge, in Superior Court in New York City. This woman with the heart of a lion has her own beliefs of what large-scale drug pushers should receive as punishment in her court. It is not unusual for her to issue sentences upon conviction of two to two hundred and fifty years at hard time in a maximum-security prison with no possibility of parole. No parole and no plea-bargaining! Those of you who are more familiar with the real world of crime will instantly recognize that there is a price on that Judges head along with every member of her family. She and every one she holds near and dear to her are under a constant twenty four-hour a day security guard by the New York police department, and yes, she is herself armed!

When questioned as to her fears for her safety, her response was: “If someone is really determined to kill you and they keep at it long enough, than they will succeed!”

If you are in any way inclined to say a prayer, even if only rarely, I ask you to please pray for her! She could very well be the vanguard of a new movement to really bring about a meaningful and decisive effort to conquer the scourge of drug traffic afflicting this nation.

People Rule!

Mike

Sorry, Robby, but I meant that people being in a treatment center still have the ability to sell illegal drugs. If they don't make treatment available in prisons, then why not? You stated "The threat of imprisonment has no effect on a drug addict because the compulsions and threat of withdrawal that are elements of addiction far outweigh any consequences a drug addict may face for the commission of these acts."

It is my contention that if they don't worry about the consequences, why leave them free to commit more criminal acts to appease their cravings? Incarceration does not have to be in a prison as we know it, but some place of restraint should be available. What is the percentage of "rehabilitated" addicts who refrain from using drugs 2 years after treatment?

Mike says:--"The source of the drugs has never been the problem. The market demand in the United States will continue to be the major problem unless and until we make radical changes in the criminal justice system. We must change our attitude towards capital punishment.

"We are in the process of losing the children of America to those who profit from the sale of narcotic drugs. The punishment must be made to be of such an order of magnitude that it will bring terror to the minds of those planning to participate in that enterprise. In some Middle East countries, capital criminal acts such as the sale of narcotics are still subject to dismemberment, either by decapitation or by the removal of an arm or leg. Those countries utilizing that form of punishment do not have a drug problem!"

Since discussing Law and Manners and Morals, various participants have bought to our attention the connection between Law and Mental Health. Is the illegal use of drugs a Law problem, as Mike indicates, or a Public Health problem?

Robby

I think that the illegal use of drugs is both a legal and a public health problem....very complicated....one bleeds into the other.....

And if we are talking about drugs, we cannot forget three major drugs -- alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine. They are all legal so do not present a Law problem. Their use, however, most certainly fits into a society's manners and mores. Are they a Public Health problem? How should we deal with the heavy use (and abuse) of legal drugs as compared to the way we deal with illegal drugs?

Robby

"The quality of mercy is not strain'd.
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes."
William Shakespeare in Merchant of Venice

I believe it to be a mental health problem and a way for people shut out of the economic system thorugh poverty and lack of education to get wealthy. As long as there is a market in middle income families there will be pushers. I would incarcerate the pushers but not those who are just users. I would have treatment for the users.

Idris:--What about the users who sell drugs to support their own addiction?

Robby

The use of cannabis or any form of heroin, cocain, in my view its not a crime or a health problem unless it creates related crimes. It is more of a personal choice which should be left to the individual. If it makes a person sick, lazy, unproductive, its still his/her choice. Those drugs have been used since the dawn of mankind. If it has a negative effect, that person knows it. In past centuries people did not live as long as we do today in the Western World by almost 50 years and drugs might have been one of the causes of their shortevity.

There should be more "information" about the negative affects of drugs, but to spend that much energy trying to erradicate it is pointless in my opinion. If those drugs were freely available on the market, prices would plummet and also would crimes related to it and so would the immense cost to society which drains the legal and the health systems.

When my children were born in the 50's the NUNS use to administer a narcotic afterwords to east pain. I had less pain, but it gave me a skin rash and I asked them to stop it.

Perhaps it would be too painful and embarrassing to ask why we as a culture need drugs in order to deal with life. We are the number one user of drugs in the world. What in the heck is going on. I understand the convenience of using drugs to dull the pain of life, but is our country less able to deal with life's disappointments or are we too "chicken" to hold true and dear to the belief that our personal lives is our legacy to how we coped with life in the 21st century. Those never having a problem with drugs do not understand the the immediate relief of a drug, when life becomes more than we, at that moment can bear. How easy it is to critisize a method to cope when one has never been challenged by over-whelming events that take over our lives.

I am looking forward to the day when someone FINALLY asks: Why does the USA need their drugs so badly that it is the world's champion user?

"Why does the USA need their drugs so badly that it is the champion user?"

Any answer to Cathy's question?

Robby

let us say that it should be o.k. or legal for people to use heroin, crack cocaine etc. as this should be a personal choice.....what responsiblity then does the rest of our society have to these folks when they become ill , indigent, etc. due to their use of drugs.... I know the next question will be do we have any resposibility to those who have sickend themselves due to the use of tobacco and alcohol....I don't know that caffiene does that much damage physically......

The United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention estimates that cannabis is the most widely abused drug in all parts of the world, with around 141 million people consuming it. This corresponds to 2.45 per cent of the world population. In particular, large numbers of young people experiment with cannabis. The proportion of school children and young adults who have used cannabis at least once in their lives is as high as 37 per cent in some countries, while the proportion for past-month use can be as high as 10-25 per cent. Overall, cannabis abuse is increasing in many countries while stabilizing in countries where it has already reached high levels.

Globally, UNDCP's estimates show that the abuse of synthetic drugs, particularly of amphetamine-type stimulants (such as "speed" and Ecstasy) is widespread and increasing rapidly. Some 30 million people abuse such synthetic stimulants.

Having spread relatively slowly in the 1980s, abuse of amphetamine-type stimulants (ATS) grew rapidly in a large number of countries in the 1990s, particularly in Europe, Australia, North America and South-East Asia. Recently, the abuse has stabilized in some of these areas but there is still a continuous growth in demand for ATS at the global level, and in East and South-east Asia in particular. Increasingly, synthetic drugs have become the recreational drugs of choice among young people, often in combination with cannabis. MDMA (Ecstasy) is popular in the industrialized world, especially in Europe.

In general, cocaine along with various other "coca-derived" substances is the second most widely abused drug in the Americas after cannabis; coca-derived substances dominate the demand for treatment. Abuse of cocaine still seems to be highest in the United States, despite the large decline in its use over the last decade and the growing levels of abuse of cocaine and "bazuco" (coca paste) in Latin American countries. UNDCP estimates that some 13 million people abuse cocaine world-wide.

Are we talking about an American problem or a world-wide problem?

Robby

I don't think i've really made myself clear. I believe the use of drugs to be a mental health problem.

I would NOT legalize drug use, i would de-criminalize it. In other words the state could still take action against the user. I would then sentence the person to take treatment, not just a jail sentence. I would also impose a fine which would help to pay for the treatment.

Robby, i don't care whether they are a user or not the pushing of drugs demands a healthy sentence in jail. I would also make them take treatment. Not all will be helped but some will.

California's Proposition 36 was approved on Election Day. This proposition would sentence addicts convicted of simple drug possession to court-supervised treatment instead of prison, and provide $120 million year for treatment programs. This treatment approach would not apply to individuals convicted of the sale or manufacture of possession for sale of illegal drugs. Nor would it apply to offenders convicted of a second crime during the same court proceeding. In addition, individuals who fail in treatment programs could be sent to prison under existing laws.

California, like the rest of the nation, has experienced a ballooning prison population, caused in part by a big increase in drug offenders. More than 12,000 people are sent to California state prisons annually for drug possession alone.

Robby

Sounds like a plan to me, Robby. What we are doing now isn't working so it is time to go back to the drawing board.

)

I agree 100% with Idris...

But I believe that Marijuana should be removed from the list of illegal drugs, and people should be able to grow it in the back yards or in windows boxes....

dapph

I sincerely believe our biggest mistake was in banning these drugs. We made the same mistake with alcohol, and created a huge world of crime! Young people WANT to try that which is banned. There is a phase our species goes through when the forbidden is the most desirable thing with which to pass the time! Oh Joy!

At the beginning of the last century, these drugs WERE NOT banned and we did NOT have the rampant usage in our youth or the dreadful expenditure of our tax dollars to try to stop the traffic.

Alcohol is just as much a drug. It kills too, both the user and the persons that user kills or injures while under the influence. If all drugs were legal, they would not have the hold over our young that they now have. Education and religion would keep most from indulging. The others, they are using now anyway, despite all laws. We could spend those tax dollars attempting rehabilitation, instead of fighting an expensive war in foreign countries and on land and sea and in our courts and prisons.

I have never used drugs and I am not a drinker. I do not use tobacco or caffeine. The only reason I am for taking the ILLEGAL stamp off of these substances is that I think what we have been doing and are doing is an exercise in futility. Truly I do.

I hope California's proposition No. 36 works. It sure sounds like a step in the right direction. I worked for 2 years in a drug rehab program and prison is not the answer for the user. However, drug rehab wasn't all that successful, either. So, there is no magic bullet.

California's enormous prison system is the largest in the Western Hempishere. At the end of the Year 2000, it had more than 162,000 inmates. This may be radically altered since the passage of Proposition 36, approved by 61% of the California residents. It was opposed by virtually all the state's law enforcement officials, judges and even some health care groups.

Nearly one in three prisoners in California is serving time for a drug-related crime. The new law puts California at the forefront of a national movement to change drug laws. It will send first-and second-time nonviolent drug ofenders into treatment, reducing the prison population by as many as 36,000 inmates a year, according to the state's nonpartisan Legislative Analyst's Office.

Would this be one of the areas where Mike's comment "The People Rule" was applied?

Robby

I am making reference to denigrating remarks about "do-gooders, bleeding heart liberals," and such categorizations, which I find offensive, demeaning, and entirely unnecessary.

Bob C

Bob C:

I would appreciate your telling me the specific "denigrating" remarks I made. Telling me the specific post in which I made them would help.

Robby

In California, the proponents of the new Substance Abuse and Crime Prevention Act emphasized the cost savings of the shift. By diverting thousands of drug abusers from jail or prison, the Legislative Analyst's Office estimatd that the measure would save the state about $250 million a year in incarceration costs and save local governments $40 million a year in operations costs.

The measure allocates $120 million a year for drug tratment, estimated at $4,000 a patient. That represents a large cut of the costs -- about $20,000 a year -- to keep a person in prison.

Robby

I apologize for the tardiness of this post but I have been away for a while preoccupied with the earthquake here in Japan and my move to Hawaii today. Your posts on the subjects of capital punishment and punishment vs. rehabilitation in the prison system plus the concern of the length of the prison sentences cause me to make this post. I am not trying to make a point rather than provide information that may prove a point for you.

The Japanese do have capital punishment but it is rarely use. It is inflicted only "for the most heinous crimes." Even the Sarin gas attack in the Tokyo subway did not merit this punishment. When prison terms are meted out the length seems by US standards to be very mild. Most sentences are less that five years and I have never seen one over ten. The cult leader and his key cohorts in the gas attack only received 7 yrs.

The key to the length of the sentence is a lack of remorse for the crime. The ones over three years in length are for those who show no remorse for what they have done. Therefore you can understand why it was important to the Japanese that Comdr. Waddle apologize and assume responsibility for the sub attack on the Ehime Maru.

Now for an understanding of the prison system. The recidivism rate is very low, single digits, in Japan. Once in prison seems to be enough for most criminals. Let us see why. First, the size of the cell less that a half the size of the US cell and the height is much shorter to the point where I can not stand erect in the cell. Second, there is no talking permitted at any time by the prisoners except when spoken to by the guards who do not carry weapons. Everywhere in the prison are signs reminding the prisoners of the rules the chief one of which is silence. Forget visiting hours, conjugal visits, TV sets, libraries for reading, personal belongings sports, gyms, etc. These do not exist. This may be why no one visits a prison or wishes to return to it. Drug use or abuse is not grounds for a prison term while the selling of which is.

I believe in distinguishing between the abuse and use of drugs. The man or woman who has a couple of cocktails or smokes a joint is not abusing drugs and should be left alone.

The only people who benefit from the War On Drugs are those who sell the drugs and enforce the laws.

Robby--

Thank you for the bit of Portia. That's pretty much the attitude I've taken all my life.

Blue Knight--

Don't believe the originator of "Walk a mile...." specified any particular type of person. I think it applies across the board.

Jere.....

Thankyou for sharing about the prisons in Japan... let someone sit and think about what they have done for a few years, and one would not think about doing a bad deed again......

I don't believe in the death penilty, but I do believe that if someone does the deed that they need to do the time.... and shorter more restrictive sentences, giving them three squares, and some good healthy paperbacks, seems so much more effective....

We wouln't have to worry about prison violance, or escaping...(lock the keys away in a safe until it is time for them to go..)

We don't have to treat them badly, (smaller cells, one person to a cell, but ceilings high enough to stand, a clean place to sleep and deficate, and water....)

We wouldn't have to worry about rehab...cus one would be rehabilitated after a few years of that....

We have fallen so far off the beatin path here in the US, that I have no faith that we will ever recoup....

This is not a political statement, but a humanitarian one....

dapph

It does seem that allowing the prisoners to fraternize is a mistake. They set up a culture of their own, and the things learned there are not good. They should not be allowed to mix at all. No tv, no cigarettes, no cohabitation. No phone calls, except from their attorneys. They can learn to write letters. Also learn to read, if necessary. They could build the prisons of all small, single cells facing the hallway for the guards to check on them and feed them and for them to be taken in and out for medical purposes. There can be OUTSIDE porchlets for each room, walled off from every other porch, where they can get fresh air and walk in tight circles and/or do exercises. These could be viewed from the guard towers. If this sounds inhumane, hey! This is supposed to be PUNISHMENT!

Dapphne says:--"We wouldn't have to worry about rehab...cus one would be rehabilitated after a few years of that...."

A Justice Department report said that prisoners sentenced for drug crimes predominate in the federal system. The 1998 census, for example, showed 30,470 sentenced for drug crimes, compared with 9,557 for violent crimes and 7,935 for property crimes.

A criminolgist at Carnegie Mellon University said a major finding of the study was that the continued growth of the prison population was driven by the huge increase in the number of parolees being returned to prison. The report says most of those returning parolees have committed new crimes. Says this criminologist:--"More parolees were being returned for violations like failing a monthly urine test for drugs."

Isn't addiction a disorder where the person (regardless of his intelligence level) continues the same behavior even when he knows it will obtain the same result?

Robby

Robby

When I worked with the state prisoners in WA they called Federal prisons "country clubs." Can you imagine why? Living conditions were far better than those in the prisons of WA state.

This is turning out to be one of the most interesting and startling discussions I have ever participated in. I am enthralled by all of your views, not only those I agree with but also those that I take some exception to. There are so many questions being raised that I find it most difficult to choose which ones to initially respond to

In subsequent posts, I will endeavor to respond to as many of the questions and issues raised as time and space and my own concepts and knowledge of the issues will permit. I respectfully request your forbearance and patience with my viewpoints, particularly if they disagree with yours, considering the fact that I do not consider myself an “expert” or authority on anything! Like you, I am an observer with opinions I wish to express and with an equal desire to listen to the variety of opinions of others.

I have just one request to make in this post and it is this:

It has been a long time since I have recommended a motion picture worthy of being viewed by all audiences. I am taking this opportunity to suggest that if you see only one movie this year, let that motion picture be “Traffic”. If you have any interest in what is really going on with respect to the “drug war”, and even more important, how that event could affect each and every one of us, especially those with children, please go see this motion picture!

Be forewarned; it contains violence, sex, depravity and many of the negative things the motion picture industry is criticized for emphasizing excessively in their product. In this case, those things are necessary to delineate the moral turpitude and criminality associated with the war on drugs. It is a motion picture that demonstrates that Hollywood can indeed produce a film that has redeeming social issue recommendations when it so desires. Go see the film! If your mind is open to the truth, you will not regret it!

People Rule!

Mike

Mike says:--"I respectfully request your forbearance and patience with my viewpoints, particularly if they disagree with yours, considering the fact that I do not consider myself an “expert” or authority on anything! Like you, I am an observer with opinions I wish to express and with an equal desire to listen to the variety of opinions of others."

Mike, what you are saying and trying to do is no more than what all of us are saying and trying to do. Speaking for myself, I am most certainly not an "expert." Every participant here is speaking from the heart and if there is disagreement, it is done in an agreeable way. In my opinion, that is what is making this Discussion Group so successful. Thank you for your continued thoughts and sharing.

Robby

My friends......

I've been involved in many, many, drug arrestes and drug related arrests, and none of them had anything to do with social redeeming value. Many were homicides, rapes, robberies, burglaries, knifings, beatings, motor vehicle accidents (too many to count) family disputes, and many other crimes, all related to drugs. Legalize? Sorry friends, but I have to say......You've got to be kidding. How many of you have personally seen teen age runaways laying in the gutter with filthy adults (neither have taken a bath in months) with tracks running up both arms? Or women working the streets for pimps for another shot? Or young women dancing nude on bar tops for another shot? Or young boys being sodomized by the scum of the earth homos for another shot? Sorry friends, your speaking of the low of lows when you want to leagalize or "allow" "HARMLESS" drugs to be decriminalized. Would you allow your grandchildren to use drugs? I think not. Everyone on the streets using drugs today is the son, daughter, wife, husband, or grandchild of someone. If those parents or grandparents are not responsible enough to say NO, then you say no and back law enforcement against this scourge that is destroying our nation.

I sometimes wonder how many of you fully appreciate the horribly accurate eloquence of the consequences of drug addiction that Blue Knight1 has contributed to this discussion. He has been down in the gutter with the worst of the worst, (or the low of lows has he describes it). I can attest to some of that which he has seen through my own experience in corrections but nothing can compare with the “hands on” revulsion of physically dealing with addicts who are forced to subsist in the living hell of drug addition that Lee has intimate knowledge of.

If those of you who are leaning towards legalization of drugs would only realize that the conditions that he describes would not only still exist under legalization but would be multiplied in human agonies and suffering a thousand times over. Such is the nature of addiction whether it is legal or not. It is a monster that is simply not satiable.

Utilize the imagination that God gave you as a human soul, and look closely into the faces of the “teen age runaways laying in the gutter with filthy adults”. If you look closely enough you may recognize the face of someone you know....possibly your own child or grandchild. If you are under the delusion that you and yours are immune from that type of tragedy in today’s permissive society, then know that there are millions of parents out there who would proclaim to your face that you are as wrong as they were.

For them it is too late but you still have the power to change the future, for our children’s sake if not for anything else. Do not forsake those you love and untold generations to come by even considering legalizing drugs. Given the divine gift of free choice, choose life, love and a sincerity of compassion for those with whom we share this life and this world. Clearly, it is up to you!

People Rule!

Mike

Mike and Lee (B. Knight), I support decriminalizing drugs not because I don't believe you about the horror of drug use and all the misery and death surrounding it....but because I do believe you and because, after years of thinking and reading about what would have a chance of changing the face of U.S. drug problems, I actually believe separating "crime" from drug use is our best hope for a dramatic change.

Putting everyone in jail doesn't work, hasn't worked. Murder, robbery, etc., would still be crimes, but not possession or use of drugs. Over the years, I've read, maybe, several hundred articles outlining ideas associated with decriminalization of drugs....including taxing drugs, just as other drugs, alcohol and cigarettes, are taxed.

All our resources could be focused on education and drug rehabilitation. We would have the same conversations with our children and grandchildren on the dangers of drug use, just as we do now and just as we talk about cigarette and alcohol use.

Both Lee and Mike speak out strongly against legalizing drugs for the reasons that they gave. Can we for a moment or two then examine the result of the use of what many of those working with addicts call the most devastating drug in the land and one which is legal? ALCOHOL!

Should we "illegalize" alcohol which as many of us in this age group know was done 80 years ago? If we declare "prohibition" the wrong thing to do, then how should we deal with those people who have the disease of addiction through alcohol? And if our answer is to consider it a Health problem and work with it accordingly, should we not then take the same action with other drugs?

Is substance abuse a Law problem or a Public Health problem? Whether our answer is one or the other or both, what specific actions do all of you suggest?

Robby

How many of the posters here shoot up heroin? What about taking speed? (Do they still call it that?) Or what about smoking crack cocaine? Hmm? Anybody? Why don't you? Because it's illegal?

I would guess that most of us would say, no, not just because it's illegal....most of us would say we don't believe in messing up our bodies like that, that we think drug use is dangerous, that people can die instantly with heart failure, we'd say we're not going to play around with possibly getting addicted. That it can mess up our brains and our genes. That it's not a Christian thing to do.

Well, those are the same reasons we want our children and grandchildren to list. Not just because they would be afraid of being caught, but because it's not a smart thing to do.

Statement by National Institute for Alcoholism and Alcohol (part of the National Institutes of Health.)

Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease with symptoms that include a strong need to drink despite negative consequences, such as serious job or health problems. Like many other diseases, it has a generally predictable course, has recognized symptoms, and is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors that are being increasingly well defined.

Alcohol is a "legal" drug, which is only to be sold to adults. Any teacher in any high school can tell you that a large percentage of the kids talk about the previous weekend's parties, or the coming one, and how they intend to get drunk. This from many as young as thirteen. This goes on everywhere, from the largest cities to the smallest towns. Now this is a so-called legal drug, which they have no trouble getting.

If we decriminalize other drugs, will that make them more available to young people? They have no trouble getting alcohol, so I wonder about cocaine, heroin etc. Will we end up with more addicts, and will we have to expand treatment facilities to take care of them? And how good are these treatment centers? What are their success rates? I don't know the answers. Does anybody?

I think that eventually we will have to decriminalize drugs as the "war on drugs" has been about as effective as prohibition was..... At least this will take the criminal element out of it..if people could get the drugs this would also reduce the crimes committed in order to get drugs and perhaps reduce the degrading behavior practiced by some in order to get drugs....the money used to "fight" drugs could be better used for public health and education. As for alcohol...it would do no good to make it illegal again... We would just be begging for the criminal element to take over.....back to bathtub gin and people killing themselves drinking less than a pure product.... There will be with us all ways those who abuse any drug . There will be those who never use....there will be those who use and experience no problems.......We have to come to terms with this.....

No, I wouldn't want my children or gands to abuse drugs. I agree with that. I think that in the Western World drug use is rampant because its illegal. Some teens don't know what to do with themselves. They go to the mall. Assosiate with young thugs. The drug market creates related crimes because it is so lucrative.

I heard on the news that Switzerland decrimilized the use of hashish. I was surprised because of their history of conservatism, but they must have made extensive research to know that if you legalize it, it will become less tempting for young rebels who would rather do something that will get the adult's wrath.

In past centuries they did not have Health or Law Enforcement Systems to the extent that we have today. Then if you made a crime, you probably were just executed. If we have those systems now its because we can afford it.

I only want to say that criminelizing drugs only makes the problem worse. It must be hard for lawmakers to decide which is the worst of the two ills. Either to let people die of their addiction, or to try to make laws to force people to live without the use of drugs.

During the last war we never heard of drug abuse. It could have been that the nation had a national purpose to defend what they considered to be the most precious things they posessed, freedom of choice and "democracy".

I've been involved in many, many, drug arrests. Many were homicides, rapes, robberies, burglaries, knifings, beatings, motor vehicle accidents (too many to count) family disputes, and many other crimes. Teen age runaways laying in the gutter with filthy adults. Or women working the streets for pimps for another shot. Or young women dancing nude on bar tops. Or young boys being sodomized by the scum of the earth homos.

Lee tells us the above in an accurate and most graphic way the results of using drugs. The very same results (every single one named above) also come from the abuse of the drug alcohol.

Why do we legalize that drug?

Robby

Very simple answer to why we legalized alcohol in my view.....Prohibition did not work.... as it is not working with the drug situation.......

I believe that the following depicts very well the problems that we face ourselves and that face the world at large.

""If we could reduce the population of the world into one village composed of 100 persons while maintaining the proportions of all the people living on earth, that village would be thus represented:

- 50 Asiatics - 21 Europeans - 14 Americans (North, Center, South) - 8 Africans.

There would be 52 women, 48 men - 30 whites and 70 non whites - 30 Christians and 70 non-Christians - 89 heterosexuals and 11 homosexuals - 6 people would have 59% of the total world wealth and those 6 would originate from the United States - 80 would live in bad housing - 70 would not know how to read - 50 would suffer from malnutrition - one would be dying - one would be born.

If we consider the world in this manner, the need to ACCEPT and UNDERSTAND would become evident.

- If you got up this morning with more health than sickness, you are luckier than the million who will not see next week.

- If you have never been in danger of a battle, of solitude, of emprisonment, of the agony of torture, of hunger, you are better than 500 million people.

- If you can go to church without fear of being threatened, tortured or killed, you have a better chance than 3 billions of people.

- If you have food in the fridge, clothes on you back, a roof over your head to sleep under, you are richer than 75% of all the people on earth.

- If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, in a box somewhere, you are among the 8% of the richest people in the world.

- If you read this message, you have a double blessing, because someone thought of you and because you don't belong to the 2 billion people who don't know how to read."" Unknown author.

When I consider this, it seems evident to me that we don't have anything to complain about if not something that we have generated ourselves.

Why am I wasting time in my comfort and not using more to help others? I feel totally selfish, self-centered and I fail to thank God enough for my blessings and I am asking Him to make me a better person.

Betty Gregory and Robby--

You say it much better than I have time to attempt to formulate on the run. I totally agree.

Eloise:--I don't know the particulars of your private life but I would guess off hand that you are not "selfish and self-centered" and are helping others.

Robby

I want to legalize drugs for all of the reasons we can derive from the dreadful scenes Lee portrays for us. I want to put my tax dollars to helping these people, not to stopping the flow of drugs. If they MUST use, let there be safe, clean supplies available from licensed vendors. No pimps, no extortion, no guns. Perhaps not as many Junior High kids will try drugs. Not as many High School kids will be hooked. There will be time and money and people available to help those who do.

You see, we are never, ever GOING TO stop the flow of drugs. Never! Wish we could. But hey, we cannot put goodness into the hearts of every human being. It has been attempted for thousands of years. We should go on trying, but it can't be done. Ergo, we must be pragmatic about how we set about ordering our society to the best possible benefit for the most of us.

Legalizing drugs will take them away from the criminal world. Legal drugs will be cheap, and criminals will NO LONGER be able to make those huge profits. They will have to turn away from the traffic in drugs when they cannot sell at their prices. This is what happened with alcohol. When it became illegal, the criminals rushed in and bootlegging became a word in our language. Joe Kennedy got rich from smuggling Scotch! Liquor poured over the border from Canada every night of the year, and up from Mexico and in on our beaches! Law enforcement was going CRAZY trying to contain it. Secret private clubs, "speakeasies", sprung up all over the place. Young people tried drinking who never, ever would have except for the lure of excitement and "wickedness."

We The People will not be in charge here until WE allow the drugs in and control the selling, just as we do with all alcohols now.

Is it a stretch to say that one unregonized reason for the overuse of drugs and alcohol just might be because of overpopulation and too severe competition for the prizes in our own personal world? Only so many can be mayor and councilmen; only so many can be govener and legistrators; only so many celebrities, etc. Competition is an horrendous experience in this our curent culture.

Expectation of our parents is a heavy burden in many cases. We seem to think that genius in achievement is the optimum sought prize. Is it? To prepare onself for positions of power and to compete for them can be one of the most brutalizing struggle in our lives. We are never tutored in how to accept defeat. We are only dehumanized by defeat, yet only so many postions are available for prestige.

Should we educate ourselves to live with mediocrity? I think this classification is the scourge we fight by drugs and our attempts at in naming causes for our mediocrity. Mediocrity is really a four letter word in our culture!

"We are never, ever GOING TO stop the flow of drugs. Never! We cannot put goodness into the hearts of every human being. We must be pragmatic about how we set about ordering our society to the best possible benefit for the most of us."

"Should we educate ourselves to live with mediocrity? I think this classification is the scourge we fight by drugs and by our attempts at in naming causes for our mediocrity."

Are we talking about prevention here?

Robby

EXCERPT FROM THIS MORNING'S NEW YORK TIMES

Drug Research Inadequate, White House Panel Finds By FOX BUTTERFIELD

The quality of data and research on what works to reduce the supply and demand for drugs is so poor that no accurate assessments can be made.

A report, by 15 economists, criminologists and psychiatrists assembled by the National Research Council, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences, took no position in the heated debate on whether to give more attention to drug enforcement or drug treatment. But the experts recommended a series of steps to increase government financing for research into drug control policies and for better ways to gather accurate data.

The chairman of the committee and a professor of economics at Northwestern University, said in an interview, "We are concerned that 10 to 20 years from now we will still be in the same position, still having these same fruitless debates forever. The bottom line message is, we simply don't know enough to know the effects of current enforcement policy."

The experts found that even what might seem the simplest measures of success in the battle against illegal drugs are unreliable. Similarly, the report said, studies of whether drug treatment works and whether it is more cost-effective than enforcement are flawed because they do not use the scientific method of comparing randomized groups — for example, comparing one group of prison inmates who have participated in a treatment program with another group of inmates who have not.

The report noted that the $30 billion spent in 1999 by federal, state and local governments to combat illegal drugs was twice the American cost of the Persian Gulf war of 1991.

The report also said that the number of people arrested in drug offenses in 1998, 1.6 million, was three times greater than in 1980, and the number of people incarcerated in state prisons on drug charges in 1998, 289,000, was 12 times the number in 1980.

Yes Robby I think we are talking about prevention, education, and treatment for those who do get hooked..... If you are a user and commit a criminal offense then you will be liable for your crime but should NOT be able to continue drug use while incarcerated......

All this week a re-run of The Massey Series will be presented by CBC Radio. The program is called "Ideas." This is an excellent series that i'm sure you would find of value and deals with the "Rights Revolution." It is on at 9pm EST and i'll give you a link to the CBC url. You may think this is off-topic but it really isn't as much of the problems we are discussing come from a common root. If you have the proper software you should be able to hear this program.

Ideas

I was not making reference to you, when I referred to denigrating statements, such as "do-gooders" and "bleeding heart liberals", but that someone contributing here had used these terms. You stated that you hadn't seen anything offensive in what you had been reading, and I was merely calling to your attention something that I thought was, but you apparently had missed. I don't feel that one should resort to categorizing groups by name calling. It accomplishes nothing, and is inflamatory. I realize that emotions run high, but I feel there ought to be a little "law and order" here too, in postings.

Bob C

An interview with Senator John McCain, (R AZ), where among other things he said the following:

"We are in the grip of special interests."

I rest my case.

Special Interests Rule!

Bob

Bob, you say: "I don't feel that one should resort to categorizing groups by name calling."

To my knowledge, no one here has been doing so. We have a wonderful self-caring family in Democracy in America.

Robby

BLUEKNIGHT about those terms in previous remarks. I am sure, he will affirm my statement.

Bob C

When the term "drugs" is used, many people immediately think of the person shooting up heroin on the street corner. But of course medical personnel don't think of that word in those terms. Physicians deal with drugs on a daily basis. In every nursing station there is a drug cabinet carefully locked. In the hospital where I hold clinical privileges, there is a pharmacy (as there is in every hospital) where the door is locked and even the window through which the drugs are passed has thick glass with a special lock device. If we want to be accurate, the local hospital is the greatest drug dealer in a community.

So drugs (like most things in life) can be a two-edged sword. In a previous posting someone said that there is a difference between "use" and "abuse." Drugs in themselves are not "good" or "bad" anymore than fire is "good" or "bad." The question is: how do we use them?

Harried police are these days combating a growing wave of drug abuse involving a potent painkiller prescribed for patients with terminal cancer and others with severe pain. Illicit dealers use suffering patients as well as fakers to "doctor shop" to obtain OxyContin for resale. Addicts favor the drug because they have learned to circumvent its slow time-released protection and achieve a sudden, powerful morphine-like high.

The term "war against drugs" is meaningless. A drug is not a person, it is an object. If we are to have a war (if that is the metaphor you prefer), against whom would you suggest we have that war?

Robby

I took my mother to the hospital for overdoses of physician given prescriptions many times. She would forget what she took and take the drug again. She often put drugs away and then brought them out and added them to the daily cocktail of necessary drugs she took for a number of serious ailments. Lots of folks take drugs for very normal reasons and in the wrong hands or forgetful periods great damage can be done.

I don't know if you are all aware of this one but a number of youngsters in Canada have been strangling each other to get a high. One wonders how long it will be before a child turns up dead from this one.

There was a wave of that here a few years back, Idris.

We really have to get to the bottom of why children do these things to themselves. There is no point in continually putting people in prison and having them come out worse than when they went in.

Idris:--In your comment about children "strangling each other" to get a "high," you have widened the topic of addiction, and I am glad you have done so. People become addicted not only to substances but to behaviors. There are people who are addicted to gambling, spending, sex, and food. Behavioral addictions can help us to see the difference between "use" and "abuse." Every day of the year there are people who eat, spend, gamble, and engage in sex and their lives are happy. But for certain others who, perhaps are genetically predisposed, the above behaviors control their lives rather than it being the opposite.

Without getting too technical, a drug such as cocaine, for example, affects the dopamine receptors in the brain, touches the pleasure center, and causes a "high." In the same way spending, for example, can cause a rush of neurotransmitters to the same dopaminergic receptors and cause the same type of "high." May I suggest that we not suddenly say we are addicted just because we overspent or ate too much.

It is more complicated than that. For example, there is a strong positive correlation between compulsive gambling and alcoholism. But enough of that scientific talk. That belongs in another discussion group.

Robby

In the "Ideas" series noted above Michael Igantiff explores western cultures and the why of many things we see here that do not exist to the same extent elsewhere. Part of the problem may be the very fact that we come from societies that hold to the rights of the individual and attonomy of the person. It would be difficult for me to explain the first hour's program in any detail here but i think you can understand where he is coming from if you think about it.

Our societies are ones of abundance and individuality. Abundance itself has moral effects. The family structure is what holds our systems together. The family structure is based on trust and love. I have felt this for a very long time and many of my children's tales deal with this very message.

On the one hand if the child feels trust and love they have a tendency to grow up fairly normally. If however they are denied the feeling of trust and love they become selfish and uncaring. In other words they never learn to have empathy. Without empathy a person simply exists in self and tries to give quick pleasure to self. Drugs, purchasing etc all are part of the abundance and comsuming society that we see about us.

Mike......

You speak with wisdon my friend. Oh how I wish others were as wise regarding the drug problem. Hindsight is called upon by those who have forsight wisdom. You're using yours.

Roberto.......

California's attempts to legalize marijuana and other drugs as you quote, is akin (in my opinion) to driving a buldozer in high gear toward the door of a pottery store. Yes, I'm speaking of total destruction. Do you have memory of the Barbary Coast in San Francisco? The Barbary Coast was not unlike Sodom or Gomorrah, but good men and women who possessed decency and common sense recognized that the proliferation of this decadent part of the city was a threat to the survival of their city. Hard work enabled them to permanently shut it down after it's cancerous open drug usage, and red light district (all of it was) had spread like wildfire and was reaching out into the bedroom communities. San Francisco, the fastest growing Sodom and Gomorrah of the United States, is beating the drums of legalized drugs, and homosexuality, and like its once ill famed Barbary Coast, will once again reach out into the surrounding communities and will infect our children, husbands, and wives. I invision a better life for our USA than this. A healthy and strong United States requires men and women who are willing to fight for decency, not sit back and allow the degenerates to "Do their own thing." Those who would allow or vote for legalized drugs will be the first to scream bloody murder when they become victims to the slovenly parasites who live for their next free fix from the government. Oh, they won't stop at free drugs, next they will want your sons and daughters, then your property, then your life. It won't happen you say? Why won't it? it's happening now, and has been for over a hundred years, and it has become far worse in the past 50 years.

I am NOT engaging in name calling in any of my posts, and I especially do NOT wish to engage in personality differences in this forum. However, as adults, we all come from a wide spectrum of our once wonderful society, and each of us has lived long productive lives that undoubtedly has produced a wide variety of manners of speach along the way. We speak from our hearts and are far to old to play childish games of trying to hurt or speak down to one another. Personally, I enjoy reading the post of each person in this forum as I am able to gleen a smattering of their personalities and thinking. At times, I may not necessarily agree with the usage of some of their words, or even some of their opinions, but they are easy to overlook because each one of us is a contribution to the whole of the forum. If I were to use the words "bleeding hearts," or "ultra liberal," then I simply ask that those who do not speak as I do, to overlook my verbalizations, and look at the content and direction of my message. If any of us were to walk into anyone's conversation in any meeting room USA, and they were using adjectives, nouns, or pronouns we ourselves did not care for, would we ask them to shut-up, or simply accept them they way they are? It is not my place to change anyone's speech as long as they are not attacking me personally. Please accept me as I am. If I have offended you personally, I ask you to please forgive me.

Drugs? Getting high?........

How many of us remember when drugs were not as prevalent and kids were getting high from sticking their noses into open gas tanks on cars and sniffing raw gas? Or, how about glue? Yes, we must change our teens habits. Now we're back to parenting aren't we? That's what it comes down to every time, being responsible parents and parenting our children, not just raising them.

There are 75 times more deaths from alcohol than all the other drugs legal and illegal combined. Yet Christ was called a drunk or wine bibber, at least he drank and was a drug user if you consider alcohol a drug. No one supports drug abuse and I cannot concieve anyone believing the War On Drugs has been anything but a failure. I have worked in night clubs and believe given the choice I would rather be around ten thousand pot smokers than ten drunks in Yankee Stadium. I am opposed to drug abuse of any kind but I find it extremely easy to distinguish between the use and abuse of drugs. I think unfortunately given your mind set that you are more the drug problem than the solution.

I am alcoholic and I have not had a drink in thirty three years. I was fortunate after losing everything I had to achieve sobriety. I cannot tell you how many times treatment failed before I achieved sobriety. Treatment is the only answer they could have put me in prison but I would still be an alcoholic. The only people that benefit from the War On Drugs are the people selling the drugs and the people enforcing the laws. We have over sixty years of failure in the war on drugs. Why is it that anyone would continue that path?

New York State has mandatory drug-sentencing laws. Under these current laws, judges have little discretion over whether a drug offender will be imprisoned, and if so, for how long. Instead, they must operate within a range of minimum and maximum sentences that take into account only the amount of the drug seized and the defendant's felony record -- not whether the crime involved violence.

The governor of New York State has announced his intention to change this. His plan would allow for shorter mandatory terms for drug offenders servng some of the longest sentences, treatment instead of incarceration in some cases, and some sentencing discretion for judges. The judicial restrictions now effectively give prosecutors far greater control of cases, allowing them to use the threat of long sentences to squeeze plea bargains from some prisoners and to force others into drug treatment.

Make sense or not?

Robby

The 'war on drugs' is just digging us into a "grave that we will never recover from" until the government recognizes this, and takes control..

IE...

Legalize EVERY drug, just like alcohol, and make the price affordable .....

Distribute from Agencies or Liquor Stores....

Age appropriate, etc..

So now the Government is regulating drugs....

Which means that the 'junkies' are now getting controled drugs, like the "alcoholics'

Dosabe appropriate, and getting them at prices that they can afford, even if they hold legitimate jobs...

Not a pretty sight but better then getting something that will kill them or having them kill, rob and maimed, just to get "high", and satisfy their addiction.....

Now where are the street 'drug dealers' going to go???

Not to the 'bigger drug dealers' (no money to be made in drugs, once you can get them at the local liquor store ), but to that local liquor store....

Immediately, the 'cartels' would be out of business.....

So now illegal deadly drugs, would be controlled and then we can get into the business of caring for the unfortunate people that are hooked...

The money will be there, when we get rid of the dope dealers..

Crime will drop, significately ....

The prison population will drop (more money for the real bad guys), and then we can deal with "how to punnish the real guys"...

As I said before, I feel that a few months/years is a "safe solitary confinement" would deter a whole lot of people from choosing a "life of crime"....

The crime rate would drop exponentially...

Yes we might be a nation of "drug abusers" ....

But, we would have a solution to the real problem, once "drug dealers" and "long time prison terms are made shorter, but in solitary"...

And "Rehab" would be "positive reiforcement"...

Thru literature, or tapes if one can not read...

They certainly will not have a "drug problem" when they come out, because "their ain't no drugs in solitary"....

And their ain't no rape...

And they probably will not want to return again.....

So the recidivism rate should be low...

There is a whole lot more that I feel is positive....

Now, where are my ideas faulty?

dapph

The most radical part of the governor's proposal -- reducing the mandatory terms for those serving the longest -- is not entirely objectionable to prosecutors, since it addresses a symbolically important but relatively small group of drug offenders. The real fight will be over the fate of the lower-level drug offenders and over whether judges, instead of prosecutors, will decide who goes to treatment and who goes to jail, and how long the sentence will be.

Over the years, mandatory sentencing laws have been credited for locking up some of the bigget drug dealers for long period of time, and blamed for imprisoning, also for long periods of time, drug addicts who turned to crime only to fuel their habits.

Robby

Let's legalize drugs and treat those who have a drug problem. Why put any one who has not committed a crime unless you want put everyone who takes a drink in solidary confinement. Lets face it drunks are a far greater danger overall than most drug users. It is the only drug whose pharmacological action produces violent behavior,Heroin,Marijuana or Cocaine do not. Unless we distinguish between the use and abuse of alcohol and drugs we are if we are intellectually honest going to wind up with a lot of people in jail.

Now if you commit a crime under the influence of drugs you cannot use the fact that you were using alcohol or drugs as defence.

Unless someone commits a crime under the influence of alcohol or drugs what is the reason for putting someone in prison? Heroin,Cocaine,or Marijuana are not as dangerous as Alcohol. If you are not abusing alcohol or drugs what is the point of forcing someone into treatment. I am an alcoholic and I haven't had a drink in thirty three years I have friends who have drank longer than I have been sober and never had any problem with alcohol.

Dapph.....

Your laundry list is A typical of statistic gatherers who've never been there, and will never, nor can they ever be proven. My previous posts have fallen on deaf ears, so I'll not waste my time repeating myself. The chosen road our liberal society has taken is one of certain destruction.

I truly do not believe this is a "liberal" or "conservative" matter. Honestly, it should not be. It is a matter of WHAT WORKS the best for the greatest number of people and our society as a whole. These drugs USED TO BE LEGAL. Then well-meaning persons with deep feelings against their use by other human beings brought about the passing of laws against them being legal. Just exactly what happened with the Prohibition Laws against Alcohol!! Then all hell broke loose in their useage, and the expense of fighting the growers, the smugglers, the dealers and the users. If we do not have to concern ourselves with the growers, do not have any smugglers, all the dealers are legal ones, then it stands to reason we can turn all of our energies and efforts into getting the users unhooked.

I am not "liberal" in my attitudes about how people should behave, how they should comport themselves, what substances are bad for their health, etc. I would describe myself as extremely conservative in these areas. I am just trying to reason things out here in as logical a manner as possible. SOMETHING needs changing here!

The more I read the many posts that support the legalization of drugs as a panacea to reducing crime and an overburdened prison population, as a means of diverting millions of dollars to education and treatment as well as reducing the cost of illegal drugs as a means of eliminating the drug cartels excessive profits....the more I realize how little many of you comprehend the real consequences of that which you are proposing.

I would ask you to please consider the following scenario:

A universal society would be created in which there was no such thing as illegal drugs. Any of the drugs now deemed to be illegal would be plentifully available through legitimately controlled sources with no more control on their purchase than there is now with the purchase of cigarettes or alcoholic beverages. Now I ask that you utilize your imagination to realistically examine the consequences of living in that type of environment.

Marijuana and “crack” cocaine would immediately become the initial drugs of choice for each and every member of our society, which would of course include all elements of our government including congress. These drugs would be the most popular because everyone could legally grow marijuana among the roses and petunias in their back yard. Crack cocaine would also be extremely popular because it can and is being made in the kitchens of any home in America. As a matter of fact, at this moment, marijuana constitutes the biggest cash farm crop in the state of California. While that enterprise is of a covert nature now, with legalization, anybody will be able to grow their own with no more conceivable restrictions than growing tomatoes.

Now that we have established the background environment of a nation with no restrictions on the use of drugs, what effects would that have on the general population? Well, for one thing, alcoholism would no longer exist as an affliction of society. The instantaneous “rush” of what now constitutes illegal narcotics would become so all pervasively popular, particularly with those of our youth seeking quick gratification that can currently only be legally supplied by drinking copious amounts of bad tasting liquor, that it would put most, if not all, liquor stores out of business.

On the plus side, almost all of us would be walking around with smiles on our faces because of the artificial sense of power, superiority, and an inflated false sense of sexual prowess and intellectual abilities that could never be supplied by nicotine, caffeine, or beer. At last, we would really be a “feel good” society. Of course, with all drugs being considered legal, there would be no constraints on their use by all governmental employees, whether municipal, federal, or even by our military manning the bastions of defense of our nation against our enemies. Would it not give us a greater sense of confidence as the strongest military force on earth to know that the hand that rests on the trigger to launch a nuclear device is also holding a “joint”? Why not?

To those who believe that legalization would, in fact, reduce crime, let’s switch to the scene of you and your family out for a drive on a beautiful sunny day. Suddenly, from nowhere, another driver pulls up alongside of you, and with a drug inspired deranged grin decides to slam into your vehicle killing you and all of your family as well. In that last instant before you depart from this earth, you just might console yourself with reflecting on how this could have all been prevented had it not been for the legalization of drugs which you so vehemently supported as the only solution to all of the problems concerned with drug addiction.

If you cannot recognize the differences between drug addiction and alcoholism and their consequences than perhaps it is those of you so vigorously support legalization of drugs that are more in need of education than the addicts themselves are.

Once the “Pandora’s Box” of drug legalization is opened it will be as difficult to close as “prohibition” was as easy to eliminate. Please be forewarned that you now stand on a slippery slope that could irrevocably damage the future of this nation as well as that of the rest of the world. There are other answers to the drug problem. They are not as easy to come by as legalization and they have their own set of consequences. May God give us all the wisdom to make the right choice!

People Rule!

Mike

I would like at the outset to thank everyone here for the logical step-by-step way in which we are examining this problem which extends not only across America and other Democracies, but perhaps around the world. There may be differences in opinion among us but we are addressing the issues, not personalities.

Mike asks us "to please consider the following scenario: A universal society created in which there was no such thing as illegal drugs - a nation with no restrictions on the use of drugs. Alcoholism would no longer exist as an affliction of society. All of us would be walking around with smiles on our faces because of the artificial sense of power, superiority, and an inflated false sense of sexual prowess and intellectual abilities that could never be supplied by nicotine, caffeine, or beer."

May I please follow your excellent example of examining this logically and in the process come up with some questions?

1 - Mike asks us to envision a society in which there were no illegal drugs. Mary reminds us that not too long ago these drugs were not illegal. At the turn of the 20th Century, for example, weren't there traveling vendors legally selling nostrums guaranteed to "cure everything" and didn't it turn out that they usually contained cocaine?
2 - Mike suggests that in such a society, "alcoholism would no longer exist." Is it indeed true that back then when such drugs were legal, that alcoholism did not exist and afflict society?
3 - Regarding nicotine, caffeine, or beer not furnishing a "false sense of sexual prowess, intellectual abilities," -- if this forum wishes, we can later discuss nicotine (a great plague in itself) and caffeine -- does not beer contain alcohol? And does not alcohol create these false senses? One 12-ounce can of beer equals one 5-ounce glass of wine equals one shot of whiskey. Someone who drinks a 6-pack of beer has drunk the equal of six shots of whiskey.
4 - Mike asks us to "recognize the differences between drug addiction and alcoholism and their consequences." Are we saying here that alcoholism is not a drug addiction. Exactly what is the difference between addiction to alcohol and an addiction to powder cocaine, crack cocaine, heroin, PCP, psilocybin, ecstasy, various prescription drugs, compulsive gambling, compulsive sex, and compulsive spending?

Just what is addiction anyway and can America and other Democracies best solve the societal problems it causes through Legal means, Health approaches, or both?

Robby

Mikecantor - Your last post seems to be to indicate that everybody including you and me would become addicted to drugs if it became legal. I disagree because when it was legal not 'everybody' became addicted. Coke started out as a drink with cocaine, thus the name. Not everybody drinks alcohol, not everybody smokes or falls into addiction when it is readily available.

It appears that the law has not come close to solving the problem of drug abuse. I'm just wondering where the solution to the problem is, it cannot come from just one source. Why don't legislators spend more money on stopping violence on TV. What are they doing about that?

What we are doing now is NOT working...

The "war on drugs" was lost before it started.....

Alcoholism is not going to go away if you legalize street drugs...

Ask a person that is addicted to alcohol ... it ain't going away...

Most of the people riding around in cars slamming into people are DRUNK, on acoholic beverages..

Look at the stats.

Anyone under the influence of any drug should not be operating a vehical. Period. And that includes "perscription" and "over the counter" drugs.. that are all 'legal' today..

I can go downstairs right now and purchase crack, crank, coke, maryjane, speed, extasy, valium, etc.. etc.. etc... but I don't..

Why? Because I am not interested now or haven't in the past ... (Experiment with a few .... yes, but my worst addictions were caffine and nicotine)

Don't anyone presume to know where I have been, what I have done, and what I have been exposed to...

I raised four children as a single mother thru the 'drug war years'..

They all experimented with different drugs as they saw fit. (one chooses to obstain from any mind alterating substances because she saw at a young age the devastation that it can cause )

One is a recovering alcoholic (he almost killed his father in law, when both of them were drunk)..

And two are in their middle twenties, both living on their own persuing their own 'dreams'...

One is a serious musician (daughter, on tour right now on the west coast), and the other as serious snowboarder (son, now living in Bozeman, Mt) (grin)..

So EVERYONE is not going to be addicted to taking drugs because they "can".....

(they can now ....)

I would like to find a solution to the "problem", that won't benefit the cartels and drug pushers (jail them and throw away the key for a few years...a healthy solitary environment is good for the soul..

I will not expound anymore about this issue, because like politics, my views probably will not change anyone elses views, and visa versa, so.....

Have a good day, EVERYONE!

8>)

dapph

In comparing the abuse of drugs and behavioral abuse, the following may be of interest.

Gamblers Anonymous offers the following questions to anyone who may have a gambling problem. These questions are provided to help the individual decide if he or she is a compulsive gambler and wants to stop gambling.

TWENTY QUESTIONS

Did you every lose time from work or school due to gambling?
Has gambling ever made your home life unhappy?
Did gambling affect your reputation?
Have you ever felt remorse after gambling?
Did you ever gamble to get money with which to pay debts or otherwise solve financial difficulties?
Did gambling cause a decrease in your ambition or efficiency?
After losing did you feel you must return as soon as possible and win back your losses?
After a win did you have a strong urge to return and win more?
Did you often gamble until your last dollar was gone?
Did you ever borrow to finance your gambling?
Have you ever sold anything to finance gambling?
Were you reluctant to use "gambling money" for normal expenditures?
Did gambling make you careless of the welfare of your family?
Did you ever gamble longer than you had planned?
Have you ever gambled to escape worry or trouble?
Have you ever committed, or considered committing, an illegal act to finance gambling?
Did gambling cause you to have difficulty in sleeping?
Do arguments, disappointments or frustrations create within you an urge to gamble?
Did you ever have an urge to celebrate any good fortune by a few hours of gambling?
Have you ever considered self destruction as a result of your gambling?

Most compulsive gamblers will answer yes to at least seven of these questions.

That is interesting, Robert...

State lotteries are making a bundle out of 'scratch' tickets..

I went down to the market the other day, and the poor old man in front of me got some groceries with his food stamps, then bought forty dollars worth of scratch tickets!!!!

My daughter has three young girls and they have solved the 'violance on tv' problem, but using the 'control' provided by the local cable company, to restrict the programming that they can get access to.

She is in her mid thirties, is a stay a home Mom, her friends are the same, and they all are committed to bringing up their children in a nonviolant manor...

It takes diligence on the part of parents these days, as in the past... And I believe that "parents" is another key word...

dapph

Alexis deTocqueville said:--"The authority Americans have intrusted to members of the legal profession, and the influence which these individuals exercise, is the most powerful existing security against the excesses of Democracy." (P123, The profession of the Law.)

As we continue to discuss this excess, do we agree with deT that the answer lies, if not completely, at least primarily with the "legal profession?" Or have our attitudes toward the law changed since 1831?

Robby

Dapphne says:--"I went down to the market the other day, and the poor old man in front of me got some groceries with his food stamps, then bought forty dollars worth of scratch tickets!!!!"

Could that be described as an addiction?

Robby

I guess if he answers yes to seven of your previously posted questions...

But, as you know Robert, I would am not prepared to judge another persons 'addictions' as I am only responsible for my own!

8>)

You could substitute 'any behaviour' for 'gambling' in your 'questions post' (like 'alcohol', 'eating' 'surfing the net') etc., to determine your addictions of choice..

Substance use is a CHOICE! I agree with Dapph, I COULD go out at any moment and purchase legal or illegal substances. I have chosen (1983) to give up nicotine, I have chosen not to drink alcohol (oh, you'll see me drinking along with the "gurrels"! Virgin Marys. Virgin Pina Coladas!), I have chosen not to take drugs. I can honestly state I have never had an illegal drug in my life (not even marijuana), honestly I have not.

And I know how difficult it is when you are hooked. I had an antsy 6 months after giving up cigarettes. I have lived surrounded by alcoholism for most of my life.

It appears to me that the line of difference between our opinions here is this:

One faction believes making substances (drugs) illegal increases the desire of the public, especially the young, to try them. Trying drugs obviously leads to greater using.

The other faction believes making substances legal would increase the desire of the public to try them.

I don't know, but the problems with drinking plummeted when Prohibition was done away with.

If we burn or bury every known addictive substance present on this planet at this very moment, a certain portion of the species is going to invent new ones and use them and become problem addicts. THIS is the real problem.

And legal or illegal, I and most of my family, friends and acquaintances will continue to CHOOSE not to drink, smoke, or take drugs other than those prescribed for medical purposes.

I find each of you with good points.

I am an addict...food addict. I also use to be a nicotine addict but got over that about 3 years ago after over 40 years. Do you see how the "poor smoker" is faring today? Most of the United States is off limits to smoking a cigarette now. They are polluting other people's lungs and the air, I guess. So, smokers now do not have the liberty of smoking where they wish. Cigarette advertising is outlawed on tv. Didn't help much to keep kids from trying it

So, if all other drugs are legal, it would seem to me that everyone will have more rights than the poor abused smoker who is made to feel like an outcast now.

Also, personally I sure wouldn't want the air traffic controller directing my plane to be high on cocaine or the cop on my beat sharing a marajuana cigarette with the fireman at the fire house. What a world it would be!!!

As you know by now, I am not as eloquent as the rest of you, but I hope I am making myself clear. Sometimes I confuse myself.

This is a question as i don't have the answer. There is a great push to have folks give up cigarettes. At the same time we have an enormous number of folks who no longer smoke but take drugs for simple depression. Question...is there a link here. I have a feeling there is.

Is it now socially acceptable to take an anti-depressant for simple depression or anxiety but not acceptable to smoke? Folks are just moving from one addiction to another?

The thing with smokers is, they may smoke all they want, they just may not blow that smoke full of carcinogins in MY face or force me to walk through or work in their smoke-cloud filled vicinity. Where the poor smokers may or may not smoke has everything to do with My health and well being, and nothing to do with theirs.

The rules are for the greater good of the greater part of our society.

Don't you think that physicians push pills more now? I do. Everytime I go to the doctor, he prescribes something else. I don't take any of them, except the drops for my glaucoma. Never took an anti-depressant in my life and I am depressed at times but I can handle it on my own.

Maybe drug salesmen are really good at their work. They have the physicians convinced!!

By the way, in my last post to clarify about the cop or the fireman or air traffic controller using drugs. Well, don't you think if you know there that it is not against the law and you won't be arrested that you are more apt to try it? I smoked marijuana once in my life and I think I might have continued if it had been legal. As it was, I was too afraid that I could be arrested.

Idris:--To answer your question, research has shown there is a positive correlation between nicotine addiction and depression.

Robby

I agree we all have a propensity for an addiction. If one claims they do not have such vulnerability, I say you are unchallgened, untried, and irrelevant, and quite frankly uninteresting.

Thanks Robby, i thought so but really had no proof other than my own experience.

Could it be concluded then that some addictions are socially acceptable and others not?

Martex brings up an interesting point with her concern about publicc officals being on drugs in their jobs. With the great variety and scope of drugs today it is difficult to be drug free.

Until recently I never knew what it meant to take meds everday and have to be concerned about their danger of interactions with OTC drugs. I am currently taking 6 different meds and am constantly worried what headache pills to take or what to take for allergies, etc. You can't be uninformed and survive in today's proliferation of drugs. YET, many of us would not be alive were it not for drugs. Such is the way of modern life.

I currently use cosmetics that plumb up the skin and make one look younger and all that stuff. Recently there was a news item that some of these cosmetics can be dangerous. I thought that all commercial items had to meet governmental approval. Evidently the Food Drug Administration cannot keep up with the drugs and nostrums coming down the pike

BLUEKNIGHT, regarding your use of certain adjectives that I objected to. I appreciate your explanation and sincerity. (Post1219)

BTW, you have me mixed up with someone else, re: posting about attempts to legalize marijuana in California. I know very little if anything about what goes on in California, though I am aware that they are having power problems. I suppose with all those drugs that so many take out there though, they probably don't even notice when the power goes off.

MARYPAGE makes reference to the 'SOMETHING" needs to be done!" Couldn't agree more, but the question is what. Our prisons are filled to overflowing with many whose only crime was to be caught using drugs. The cost to society of keeping so many in prison is incalculable. Every one of them could be sent to Harvard for what it costs to keep each in prison for a year, and there would be money left over. Is that what society wants? Perhaps a little of that huge sum might be spent on prevention rather than punishment.

I would like to bring another book into the discussion here, Brave New World. The characters there seem to be about what America is today. Soma is the drug of choice there, while today we have a much larger variety of choices. Permiscuity is the norm in this novel, as is obviously the case today.

A recent article in the Washington Post states that 55% of highschool children engage in oral sex. They believe it is safe, since they can't become pregnant. They also are unaware of the dangers of becoming infected with sexually transmitted diseases. Our society is out of control, and there appear to be few if any answers.

Punish people severely, or not. Throw them in prison or give them legalized drugs. Don't have sex until you're mature enough to understand what is involved. Well, that just isn't going to happen. It's all right if I drink, but I don't want you doing it. I don't want you driving wrecklessly, but if that guy over there on the road tries to cut me off, it's all right if I give him the "finger". Do as I say, not as I do. We're in one hell of a mess, and it's probably going to get a lot worse before it even starts to get better.

Bob C

Roberto - Glad your back!

Your worry about our society going down the tubes, I think, is abit premature. As long as I can remember the older generation has warned of the doom we would all be facing if current events were to continue. However, there always seems to be enough of the young adult generation to save our doomsayers.

Tom Brooks, a contemporary author, spent many hours interviewing college students in both ivy league schools as well as state universities and he found a solid core of sober, ambitious, dedicated young adults determined to make something of themselves. He found theym to be wholesome and believable. I am also optimistic about our young. I have five grandchildren that are very wholesome, just sometimes rebellious, sometimes critical of their elders' mores, but all-in-all very able to take over their responsibilities when required.

What is the rule for airline pilots?

"24 hours between bottle and throttle?" (or maybe it is 12)

That would not change if drugs were decriminalized.

The mayor smoking pot would probably do a whole lot better at mayoring then a mayor coming back from three martini lunch.

It is not good for people to do any drugs when they work... it is just bad policy. My ex husband was an electrician on the Nuclear Power Plant in Seabrook, NH when it was being built, way back when....

For lunch daily he would all go out and drink screwdrivers at the local bar...lots of them, every day...

And he wasn't alone ... Five or Six of the construction workers (at least) would be right there along with him.

How does that make you feel about the safety of Nuclear Power Plants?

8>)

Robby--

As a professional psychologist, what is your opinion of the effects of keeping a person in solitary for a period of X years? It seems to me that such a person might return to society totally unfit for normal human interaction.

And, I think a better word than 'liberal' for those advocating abandoning the war on drugs would be 'pragmatist'--- whatever works. Personally, I resent the opprobium attached to 'liberal'. I may have said it before, but in any case, I'll say it again. Liberals may have been wrong, they may have made mistakes, BUT they were sincerely trying to better both the individual and society. They TRIED! They didn't just condemn out of hand.

Cathy...

I agree...

I have great faith in all of the children in my family..and of their friends...Not that something bad could happen tomorrow, but the young people, in general are very respectful and doing their own thing, whatever that might be...

A 22 year old woman was sentenced Friday to 18 to 48 years in prison for having drugs in her system when the van she was driving crashed off a freeway and killed six teenagers. The woman admitted she smoked marijuana two hours before the crash. Her lawyer said she used the stimulant-hallucinogen Ecstasy ten hours earlier.

A jury found her guilty Feb. 16 of six counts of felony driving with a prohibited substance in her blood.

I have two questions to ask those of you who favor legalization of drugs:

If the legalization of drugs should ever become a reality, do you really believe that there will be more or less instances of this nature being enacted?

Since her conviction was based on “felony driving with a prohibited substance in her blood,” if the substance was no longer prohibited, undoubtedly her sentence would be of a lesser order of magnitude of punishment than that which she actually received. If one of those innocent teenagers were one of your children or grandchildren, in a world in which drug usage becomes a legalized norm of society, how would you feel about that?

Or maybe you live in a fantasy world in which such things always happen to someone else and not to you or yours! If that is the case, you are either very lucky or very oblivious to the horrific future this nation would face in an environment in which drug legalization became a reality!

Those of us who steadfastly oppose your views will continue to do so on the basis of our first hand experience and knowledge of the reality of the drug culture. We have seen that hell with our own eyes rather than enveloping ourselves in hyperbole and theoretical premises. It’s probably too bad that more of you have not experienced watching your loved ones going through the indescribable agony of drug withdrawal and death as a consequence of an unconquerable drug addiction.

You just might change your views on the legalization of drugs!

People Rule!

Mike

Mike, you wrote:

"We have seen that hell with our own eyes rather than enveloping ourselves in hyperbole and theoretical premises."

These little digs about how unqualified others are to have a reasoned opinion about legalization of drugs are tiresome. As Dapphne wrote, you cannot know what we've done or seen, so please ease up on the personal comments. You may not like or agree with some opinions, but your guessing about how we became so misguided to have those opinions is out of bounds.

Betty Gregory--

Bravo, bravissimo!!!!

Mike's #1229.......

From the posts I've read preceding Mikes post, I dare say some of you may not understand what I am about to say, but please try.

Mike has far reaching wisdom in his post and he is completely correct in his assessment. Roberto's comments regarding alcohol are a result of the decline of probition. The doors opened wide to alcohol and who are the drunks and drinkers of this world? Everyone that can hold a glass without restraint. Now go back and reread Mike's post. He's RIGHT folks, he's right, he has a handle on realism. You don't believe it? You should, he's speaking with wisdom.

Lee, you must be too young to remember, but I have been there! There was far more drinking per capita during Prohibition than there is today! The horrendous INCREASE in alcohol-related problems for our society was the reason they REPEALED Prohibition. Read up on it!

Mary Page.....

You said: "I don't know, but the problems with drinking plummeted when Prohibition was done away with."

FBI statistics accumulated from every police department in the United States says otherwise.

There was a lot less people there back in prohibition days, also...

I saw that whole trial and the sentencing .....

I also saw where that accident took place....

The State holds some of the fault for placing those children in the middle of a dangerous high speed highway out of Las Vegas.... and they will pay and pay for what they did too...

The girl was wrong for driving two hours after smoking, and not having had any sleep...She will spend her whole life in jail for it...

If she had been under the influence of alcohol, she would have been charged to a lesser degree, and would only spend a few years behind bars under las vegas law.....

People have access to these drugs every where .... Legalizing them would take them out of the hands of the drug pushes, and cartels, so it would be easier to monotor what is going on .....

Other countries have done it with MUCH success...

Law enforcement is loosing this battle because they can't control it, and too much money is spent prosecuting, and jailing users, instead of consintrating on the suppliers......

Users should be treated, suppliers should go to jail....

It would be easier for law enforcement to control it, if it were legal to use, but not legal to sell etc..etc..etc..

When should a user be treated???

When he has broken the law...

When he is out in the streets and is a public menace...

I guess that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one folks..

dapph

We have a hung jury.

I wonder if people in law enforcement sometimes feel something similar to what the U.S. military felt in Vietnam....that they were given an impossible task.

All the posters here who spent good years in law enforcement...well, I guess we'd be shocked if they said, yeah, it was too hard, so we should have quit trying. It makes sense to me that you guys still believe that, with enough money, support, focus, and whatever else was deemed essential, that the drug flow would finally be interrupted and then stopped.

I'm not 100 percent certain of the wisdom of decriminalization of the now-illegal drugs, but I've been working my way there over time and am about at 99 percent. I wonder if you guys are where I was about 5 years ago.

I don't see this country making this reversal any time soon, though. In some ways, we're more conservative oriented on issues like this than we have been for decades.

Martex......

My how I find myself in agreement with those who espouse intellegence. Oops! I fear I may have made an enemy or two. I hope not, but your posts are similar to Mikes, in that you speak from experience that makes sense. You said:

"Also, personally I sure wouldn't want the air traffic controller directing my plane to be high on cocaine or the cop on my beat sharing a marajuana cigarette with the fireman at the fire house. What a world it would be!!!"

This is the crux of the fallout from an open and free use of drugs. Now please folks, I am not deliberately trying to aleinate any of you, but for heaven's sake, can't you see what will become of our nation with the idiotic freedom of drugs? Lord forgive us for our want to follow after Sodom and Gomorrah.

You closed your post with: "As you know by now, I am not as eloquent as the rest of you, but I hope I am making myself clear. Sometimes I confuse myself."

Martex, Never make excuses for good common sense that everyone should, and MUST follow, for us to maintain a decent society. Bless you, because it is people like yourself that are willing to stand up to those who are not willing to maintain a modicum of sense in this out of control world of ours.

Mary Page....

Thank you dear one, but I fear I have a few years myself. Have you read the statistics of drunk driving, drunks involved in traffic accidents, drungs involved in vehicular homicide, teenage addiction to alcohol, the divorce rate due to alcohol, the incidences of suicide resulting from alcohol, etc, etc,? Prohibition was peanuts compared to the problem we have today.

Dapph......

Huh?

"The mayor smoking pot would probably do a whole lot better at mayoring then a mayor coming back from three martini lunch."

Roberto......

I assure you, it's NOT going to get better. My source says it's going to get so bad that man will not survive.

Gee, guess i should tell my new grandson to crawl back in.

Lee, I guess it doesn't occur to you that questioning the intelligence of those with whom you disagree...says more about you than those with whom you disagree.

Robby, can you speak to all this posturing going on...seems like my request to end the name calling got translated as a challenge.

I envision the world like Mel Gibson's Mad Max movies. I hope that is the right title. I have never gotten those movies out of my mind. If you haven't seen them, maybe you should consider it. I don't want my grandchildren to live in such a world and this one is getting close.

Yesterday while shopping at two different stores, I saw a preschooler at each store acting up in a big way and when the Mother tried to calm them down, the children said a nasty to their mothers and hit them. I see more and more of this. I don't like children that are the bosses and the parents helpless (so it appears) unable to do anything about it. I am glad that I am older and my time is limited. Stop the world....I want to get off!!! I am too polite to say what I was thinking yesterday or today in here.

Mike says:--"It’s probably too bad that more of you have not experienced watching your loved ones going through the indescribable agony of drug withdrawal and death as a consequence of an unconquerable drug addiction.

May I suggest that not a single one of us here has walked in the moccasins of the others nor has any idea whatsoever what their loved ones have gone through. Sometimes in the passion of the subject at hand, we forget that in this forum we address issues, not personalities.

Lee says:--"My how I find myself in agreement with those who espouse intelligence." Speaking for myself, in no way am I able to appraise the intelligence of fellow participants nor do I intend to do so. I would hope that all others feel the same.

I have been gone all day and just returned to find 24 posts. Undoubtedly we are all interested in improving our nation in one way or another.

Robby

Well, I share some of that dread, Martex. In fact, in one way or another, I've heard most of us say how worried we are about the future of our children, grandchildren, our planet, all of it.

Let's don't let any discussion add to our worries or keep us up at night, though, (I tell myself)...which was sort of what was on my mind when I asked Robbie for some kind of a mental breather.

We probably all have our different perspectives that cause us to think things are getting worse and worse. I watched the best author read from his new book criticising our education system (today on book tv c-span) and ended up with tears in my eyes---partly because he was so articulate in his criticism and partly because I had an instant increase of ...I don't know, just a moment of deep pessimism. Which is not like me at all!!! Me, the eternal hopeful, we-can-do-it person. Except lately, a few too many worries.

Anyway, something about your post made my heart go out to you, Martex. (Did you hear it? I'm just up the road from you!!) So, let's step back once and a while and look away from the too many worries and enjoy our spring days. Bluebonnets...do you have any down where you are?

Betty

It is sleeting and raining here on the rocky coast of Maine, and I hate it!!!!!!!!!!!

I am more then ready for spring!

“Don't anyone presume to know where I have been, what I have done, and what I have been exposed to...” ------------Dapphne

“These little digs about how unqualified others are to have a reasoned opinion about legalization of drugs are tiresome. As Dapphne wrote, you cannot know what we've done or seen, so please ease up on the personal comments. You may not like or agree with some opinions, but your guessing about how we became so misguided to have those opinions is out of bounds.” -----Betty Gregory

As I see it, the purpose of this forum is for all of the participants to have the opportunity to delineate and express their opinions relative to the viewpoints of others choosing to engage in the discussion at hand. Those viewpoints may or may not include, at the participant’s option, statements with regard to their own personal life experiences and involvement, which serve to reinforce the positions taken. While I cannot speak for Lee, I think he would agree that the opinions we have expressed are based on that premise.

To categorize my comments as “tiresome” is a perfectly legitimate expression of opinion available to all participants in these discussions. I too, sometimes wonder, if I have a tendency to over-emphasize points of a discussion which I am particularly sensitive about as though I was attempting to beat a dead horse. Be that as it may, I must, however, take some exception to your inference that I deem others unqualified to have a reasoned opinion about legalization of drugs because of my “guessing about how we became so misguided”.

The above statement from one of Dapphne’s posts, which I believe is the one you are alluding to, I consider to be one of the most positive and affirming positions that anyone has ever taken in this forum.

Dapphne is absolutely correct! I must also point out to you that I have never considered those who do not agree with my opinions as misguided. The frame of reference, which I utilize for my opinions and responses, is based purely on the information tendered by the originator in the text of their posts. I have never and do not now, make it a practice to “guess” at the intent of any position taken by any participant in this forum. To do so would be particularly presumptuous on my part and I deny that allegation.

When statements are made, however, that I know to be factually incorrect, particularly when they are not based on any offered personal experience, then there is no other choice available than to make some assumptions about the consequences of their implementation. That, in essence, is what I intended to do, not only in this discussion, but also in any of those in which I have participated.

Each and everyone of us, particularly in discussions as volatile as this one has turned out to be, have the privilege of expressing our opinions in the manner in which we see fit, providing that no offense is given or taken. If anyone has taken offense at my remarks, I state unequivocally that such was not my purpose. I will also state that I make no apologies for the positions I have taken because they have been given in the context of truth and the reality of conditions as they are. If there are any conditions of misguidance here, it is purely in the minds of those who think otherwise of the integrity of my intent and are perhaps unwilling to fully expose the justifications for the positions they have taken. I believe in that as a democratic birthright of all of us. I ask only that you respect mine as well.

People Rule!

Mike

Interesting how various subjects inter-relate. We started out by comparing the Law in America today with the Law as deTocqueville saw it. This led to the topic of Manners and Morals. All that seemed to relate to prisons and crime. And that led to substance abuse and behavioral abuse. This became the sub-topic because of the high number of people ending up in prisons after using one substance or another.

But what about those crimes which seem minimal and yet lead to arrest? A Texas mother was ordered from her pickup truck by a police officer for not using seat belts, was placed in handcuffs and taken to jail in front of her crying children. This has gone before the U.S. Supreme Court and Justice O'Connor exclaimed to her lawyer: "You've got the perfect case!" upon which the lawyer replied: "We like to think so."

It was not so simple, however. The question of whether the Constitution pemits an arest in such a situation -- complete with handcuffs, booking and impounding and searching the truck -- is surprisingly unresolved. Her pickup truck, in which she was driving her 6-year-old daughter and 4-year-old son home from soccer practice through the local streets of Lago Vista, Texas at 15 miles per hour, contained two tricycles, a bicycle, an Igloo cooler, a bag of charcoal, toys, food and two pairs of children's shoes. No one in the truck was wearing a seat belt. The fine in Texas for not wearing a seat belt is $50. She was released after an hour in jail, when she posted bond. She pleaded no contest to the seat belt charge.

Her lawyer argued that to make a custodial arrest, rather than simply write a ticket, is so inherently unreasonable in the absence of another factor like breach of the peace or likely flight as to violate the Fourth Amendment's prohibiton against unreasonable searches and seizures.

Just what is going on here in America anyway?

Robby

"As I see it, the purpose of this forum is for all of the participants to have the opportunity to delineate and express their opinions relative to the viewpoints of others.

Mike is correct about this and our approach here is to do so without referring to the character or personality or capability of the person who gave the viewpoint.

Robby

Believe me alcoholics die going through withdrawal Heroin addicts do not. Withdrawal of alcohol makes withdrawal of heroin look like a picnic. Nearly five percent of alcoholics die going through withdrawal. I have never heard of a pot smoker going through withdrawal. I cannot speak for Cocaine but I understand many users or should I say abusers of legal drugs go through withdrawal.

Robby.......

I believe it unfair to ask us to make judgment, or qualify the actions of the police in your last post regarding the arrest of the seat belt violator. My reasoning is simple, we do not have the facts of the case. Allow this: All police officers (law enforcement officers) must follow department procedures at the scene of any and all vehicle stops. The woman was stopped for the seat belt violation. The officer wrote her and she refused to sign the citation. This automatically brings phase two of the arrest into play. The officer has no other option than to place her under arrest, place her in handcuffs, search her vehicle for valuables for booking for safe keeping, impound her vehicle, drive her to the local jail and book her for the violation. This the officer MUST do, he cannot make new law. Why the handcuffs? You must understand that all suspects (arrestees) placed into a police vehicle MUST be cuffed for the safety of the officer and the suspect. For those not familiar with nasty women in a police car, I assure you they can wreck havoc back there. A mad fighting woman on your back isn't a fun experience.

bookman.....

Few alcoholics die while drinking, untold numbers of heroin, crack, meth, and pill users die while using. ALL heroin, crack, and meth addicts started with Pot. Not all drinkers are alcoholics, but all users are addicts.

I can't understand why everything leads back to an incident supposedly involving a "bad cop". As I said the other day, there are rotten apples in every kind of barrel. I see more good cops than I do bad. I don't know any personally so don't think I am from a family of cops. I don't know how anyone goes out and puts their life on the line daily without going crazy. So, Robby, why keep bringing up all the stories.

I live in Texas and the woman should have had her seatbelt fasten or at least her children should have been in seatbelts or car seats. I was stopped recently by a very nice state trooper. I usually get a ticket but not this time. He probably should have given me a ticket as I sure was guilty. He was just doing his job when he stopped me. However, if I was a cop, I would have my heart in my throat everytime I approached a car. You never know when the person will pull a gun and shoot you dead. This happened not long ago in the town of 35,000 I live in. The policeman certainly didn't deserve to die for a speeding ticket.

Martex.....

Thanks for the e-mail, I appreciated it and feel free to write anytime.

I come from a family of law enforcement officers and I always remembered something my father told me. "Son, when ever you stop anyone, even a gray haired grandmother, when you get out of your patrol car you place your right hand on your weapon, leave it there, and don't take it off until you're safely back in your car and she's driving away." I never forgot that and lived by it. My good friend Chuck Carachilo working motors, stopped a guy one night, walked up to the drivers window and was immediately shot in the heart. Chuck thought it was a speeding ticket, the guy had just robbed a liquor store and thought Chuck was stopping him for the robbery. I know the fear you speak of, and all policemen have experienced it many times over.

Lee:--Sorry to disagree with you but "ALL heroin, crack, and meth addicts" do NOT start with Pot. Many of them go directly from nicotine and never use Pot throughout their using days. As to your statement that "Not all drinkers are alcoholics, but all users are addicts." I agree that not all drinkers are alcoholics, but I disagree that "all users are addicts." Someone here in an earlier post, emphasized the difference between "use" and "abuse." There are actually three phases -- use, abuse, and addiction. Someone who has an occasional beer is "using" a drug. Someone who has a six-pack a night and a 12-pack on week-ends is "abusing" and possibly addicted. Someone who has been abusing, tries to stop and can't, is "addicted". The same definitions hold with any other substance. Someone who has used LSD two or three times, has a bad "trip," decides to immediately stop and does, was a "user" but never an "addict". He stopped immediately on his own and obviously did not have an addiction.

I agree with Bookman that "alcoholics can die going through withdrawal but heroin addicts do not." The cemeteries are filled with alcoholics who had Delerium Tremors and other symptoms while going through withdrawal before dying. There is no instance on record of anyone dying from withdrawal from Heroin (although he might wish he could). It is, in fact, the horrible feeling of the withdrawal that leads the person to the next fix more so than any feeling the Heroin might furnish.

Martex asks me why I "keep bringing up all the stories" about cops. Checking of previous postings will show that I bring up a broad spectrum of stories. That is why the three Links are in the Heading to enable everyone here to browse through previous discussions. You are encouraged to do so. Participants may recall that not too long ago I was "bringing up stories" about "crimes" committed by physicians. I am sorry if Martex feels I am "picking on" cops. To quote a famous radio personality, I am interested in "just the facts, M'am" and all of us react to the particular sub-topic at hand.

In the case of the woman arrested and handcuffed after being stopped for not using her seatbelts in 1997, she and her husband brought a damage suit against the city of Lago Vista, its police chief and the officer who arrested her. The suit was dismissed in Federal District Court in Austin, Texas, reinstated by a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, and then thrown out again by an 11-to-5 vote of the entire Fifth Circuit. The appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court argued last December that at the time the Fourth Amendment was adopted, the general legal principle was that while the police could make arrests without warrants for offenses committed in their presence, that authority did not extend to non-felonies unless they involved breaches of the peace or some other added factor.

The Justices were troubled and intnrigued by the cases but unsure how to proceed. One Justice said it was imnportant to know "how bad the problem is out there" because many jurisdictions appear to authorize custodial arrests for minor offenses and that a case that is very rare should not be the basis for "constitutionalizing" a general rule.

Any additional thoughts on this Fourth Amendment case?

Robby

There is an area of Vancouver, BC known as Gastown. It is not my kind of place but most big cities have one. I shall give you a link and you can see how MJ simple possession is handled there. Then i think i shall make myself scarce until you get over it.

)

Pot in Vancouver

A number of years ago there was a book out called I'm Dancing As Fast As I Can which describes quite accurately the withdrawal from valium which is just as bad as heroine withdrawal which is no cup of tea. Reminds me of The Man With the Golden Arm.

I think drug use and abuse robs a person of realizing their fullest potential in life, to say the least. It grows and grows in many, many cases and becomes debilitating and leads to finding ways of making money (like robbery) to buy the drugs.

Linda

I am confused regarding a point being made back there in the posts about legalizing drugs which are not now legal.

I do not see where legalizing drugs will suddenly give us a problem of ADDITIONAL drivers, air traffic controllers, etc., on drugs and putting us in danger.

We are ALREADY in danger when we leave our homes from all of the drunks (on legal alcohol) and druggies (from both legal and illegal drugs) out there on our roads.

It will STILL be illegal to use drugs and drive. It will still be a cause for termination if you drink or use on the job. Nothing will change there.

It seems to me Society will simply be MORE in control of a situation which is now totally OUT of control. There will be, where DRUGS are concerned, no more Smuggling, no more Gun Battles, no more Interference in the agriculture/political affairs of foreign countries, much less prostitution, much cleaner, purer supplies, much less crime.

The Air Traffic Controller in the tower ordering my takeoff or landing is still going to be drug free or Fired, just as is the rule today. Legalizing drugs will simply put them where alcohol is. An additional benefit should be that they will lose their lure for the young people who really just want to try the forbidden.

Not trying to be RIGHT here, or make anyone else WRONG! Sincerely. Just trying to think the thing through.

with posts coming fast and FURIOUS, the latter being literally so.

CATHY, let me say I never said "we're going down the tubes." What I did say was "It is going to get a whole lot worse before it even starts to get better." If I thought there was no hope for the future, I would be in despair. I have five grandchildren, for whom I hold out high hopes that their lives will be much improved, through the efforts of those now in charge of the destiny of this planet, namely we "elders" who are running the show, or at least that is the way most believe.

JEANLOCK objects to the use of the word "liberal", as do I, along with any other attempt at derogation. I've said before and I say it again, that I believe name-calling has no place in this discussion. It is a buzzword that is not necessary, and is entirely unwarranted.

BETTY objects to name calling also. I fully agree.

MIKECANTOR's wish/hope that others will suffer misfortune so they can appreciate true suffering is rather sad, and completely uncalled for. Why would anyone wish that on others?

BLUEKNIGHT, I don't know whether or not you remember prohibition, though you do say you've got a few years on you. My grandmother was a bootlegger, who managed to keep body and soul together by making illegal hootch in our bathtub and basement. I can assure you that nothing she ever sold ever caused anyone to go blind or die, as the makers of illegal hootch did to so many. Illegal alcohol was a curse that caused tragedy to many of that generation, just as drugs are doing today. There was the famous, or rather infamous Al Capone, whose reign of terror was finally brought to an end by putting him in jail for failure to pay income tax, but that did not bring an end to the bootleggers' vile activities. It took an end to prohibition to accomplish that.

I certainly am not for the legalization of drugs today, though I do wonder about the waste of money and resources to combat a problem that really begins with each individual. Until this is solved by each and every one of us, I see no end to the problems we are having in our society today. It will take great effort on the part of all of us to bring about that much longed for day.

"WHAT FOOLS THESE MORTALS BE!"

Bob C

Why can't they use it more when it is legal? I would if I had the desire. Being illegal and fear of going to jail is a deterrent for many. What about the 3 cocktail lunch? Don't fool yourself. A lot of drugs are used at the workplace. I worked for over 2 years in a drug rehab program so I am aware of what some of the clients did

Also, I have seen heroin withdrawal. You might not die but you sure want to!!!

Good luck in Vancouver, Idris. I sure wouldn't want it to be like Amsterdam around me. I wouldn't even want to visit as an ordinary non druging person. When I lived in Turkey and it was necessary to go to a turkish shop for something, I even tried to not breathe too much so I coulldn't inhale too much hashish, which was smoked pretty openly. LOL.

I rather like the idea. We put fewer folks in prison and they know enough to stay put in one area. We still have fewer than 600 murders per year in Canada and our incarceration rate is going down for violent crimes. To each his own.

In addition to the case of the woman arrested for not using seatbelts and which ended up in the U.S. Supreme Court related to the Fourth Amendment, just a couple of months ago another case arrived in the Supreme Court regarding this Amendment.

The Supreme Court reaffirmed the fundamental Fourth Amendment principle that searches and seizures must be based on suspicion that a particular individual is engaged in wrongdoing. The case involved roadblocks set up by the Indianapolis Police Department to stop and check passing cars for illegal narcotics with drug-sniffing dogs.

The majority opinion forcefully rejected such roadblocks as violating the Fourth Amendment, which requires that searches and seizures be reasonable. In ordinary situations, that means that there has to be individualizd suspicion before such searches can take place.

Although this case relates to roadblocks to locate illegal narcotics, the even greater Constitutional aspect of the case is illegal searching and seizures.

How do the rest of you feel about searching your personal effects?

Robby

Well,I had it done every time I went from Turkey to Greece and vice versa. Also, had it done in the United States. It doesn't bother me a bit. However, I am not sure I would want an automatic strip search.

Go live in a lot of foreigh countries and then see how good the USA looks to you. The police in Spain and Turkey make the American police force look like kindergarten teachers.

Also, living in the capitol of Turkey, one day I went by Parliment and saw members of their government hanging out of windows. Hung on the spot. So, I think that makes the states look pretty good. If there weren't laws, there would be more of the things that no one wants.

It would seem like no one wants any law and order. Let everyone do their own thing. So be it. Vote it in.

Martex is not bothered by being searched at customs. How about having your car stopped on a highway in America and your being searched although there was no suspicion?

Robby

Last Fall a Chinese woman arrived in Portland, Oregon. An immigration agent decided that her passport was suspicious because the laminate over the photoraph was loose. The director of the immigration office said that the woman "fit the profile" of an illegal immigrant bedause she was taveling with another peson -- a man who turned out to be her fiance.

She was removed to a room where she was ordered to strip down to her underwear, and was inspected by two female agents. Then she was handcuffed and taken to Northern Oregon Regional Corrections Facility 80 miles away. Inspectors delcined to fell her fiance where she was and he finally resorted to hiring a Portland immigration lawyer to track her down.

After spending two nights in jail, she was told by the immigration service that her passport was indeed authentic and they brought her back to the airport for a flight to New York. The director initially defended the agency's treatment of her, but after an article in the local newspaper about her ordeal sparked a storm of outrage, he reviewed the incident, announced that agents had erred in their handling of her, and offered her an apology.

Robby

Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I forgot. I spent 3 months in Laredo, Tx in 1988. Went across the border everyday as I had racehorses at the Mexican racetrack at Nuevo Laredo. I was searched quite often both in Mexico and in the USA. Again, it didn't bother me. Also, here in San Antonio, I was stopped once by a highway patrolman and he asked me to ;et him look in my car and trunk. Again, no big deal. I was just glad that maybe he was doing his job. I have also had to go through many check stops leaving military bases. Maybe some of them are uncalled for, but I rather have them than not.

The way the Constitution reads is a matter of interpretation by the interpreter at the time

Canada and the USA share the longest undefended border in the world. It is an honour to be allowed to enter either country. It is certainly not ones right. Profiling can really get folks into trouble.

I still don't like the US border guards on our side sporting guns. It makes me nervous and i'm just not used to seeing guns.

IDRIS - forgive my ignorance about Canada, but aren't police offiers armed when on duty? I certainly can understand your apprehension about weapons if you are not accustomed to them, but with the increased threat of international terrorism, I'd hate to think of officers (of any service) without weapons when they are needed.

MARTEX - I've also lived in the Middle East and appreciate your comments about border search customs in Turkey and that country's on-the-spot punishments. Similar to Iran. Those experiences remain in one's mind for a LONG time.

This may seem a contradiction....I understand why we have the fourth amendment and proud and happy we have this protection....however....I would not be upset to have my personal effects checked just as I am not at an airport.....I too believe the officers to be doing their job for the greater good so to speak.........

Drug legalization and the realization that there is difference between use and abuse will do infinitely more to solve the drug problem than the War On Drugs.

England proved that Heroin addicts could lead a normal life and work if they had ready access to the drug. What floored me was with easy access to Heroin users used less.

The end of Prohibition did end the alcohol problem but it ended the control of alcohol by organized crime, and the corruption of our legal and political system by the bootleggers. Only to see illegal drugs the source of corruption.

I had many iranian friends (women) who were married to AF guys. After living overseas, I think maybe the USA may have a little too much freedom. hahah. That is a joke. No, seriously, I appreciate our country. It has always had problems, will always have problems. If it is not one thing, it is something else.

Tiger Lily..I feel the same. I don't like guns, either, but I don't expect a police office or the equivalent not to have one. He is risking his life enough without being unarmed.

Yes, our policemen wear guns. Until a year ago the Newfoundland Constabulary was the only police force that didn't. They didn't really need a gun until recently. Neither did the Bobbies in England until a short time ago.

Robby.....

Please note you quoted LSD, I did not. Heroin, Crack, and Meth is a one time and you're hooked. As for heroin users not dying from withdrawl, I have zero knowledge as to whether there are none on record. However, comparing alcoholics to addicts is taking us where? All are dangerous to society and themselves. My stand is that illegal drug users are just that, illegal. Addicts are are criminals that hurt not only themselves, but their fellow man as well. Also notice I did not say all pot users move on to hard drugs, but I stand firm on all users of stuff (there are other names not to be used here) were pot users. Now there of course exceptions, but few. Never, while working narcotics have I ever busted anyone for stuff that had not started on pot. All of my associates and partners shared the same experience.

Lee, you say:--"Addicts are criminals that hurt not only themselves."

Lee, are you sure that is what you meant to say? That every addict is a criminal?

Robby

Mary Page......

Respectfully, I say: You appear to not be in touch with the real world of narcotics. You said......"It seems to me Society will simply be MORE in control of a situation which is now totally OUT of control. There will be, where DRUGS are concerned, no more Smuggling, no more Gun Battles, no more Interference in the agriculture/political affairs of foreign countries, much less prostitution, much cleaner, purer supplies, much less crime."

Society will NOT be in control.

There will be just as much smuggling and perhaps even more.

Thre gun battles will continue.

The international problem will continue, along with the killings.

Hookers will be hookers, and children will continue to sell their bodies for drugs.

I respectfully request you persent your sources for all of you comments above. You closed with: ", much cleaner, purer supplies, much less crime."

How?

We are still following the thoughts of deTocqueville regarding Law, Manners, and Morals. There is much more under that topic than drugs and addiction. If everyone here wants to continue on with the topic of drugs, we will. Otherwise not.

Robby

Roberto......

I've got a hunch all of us are pretty well aware of prohbition and the crimes of the time. But, I believe the problem before the table was the fallout and the usage afterward. Usage increased and is still on the rise. That's my take.

As for liberals and conservatives. There are just that in this forum. Some of us here are moderately liberal to perhaps fully committed. Others of us are moderately conservative to fully committed. I'm a fully committed conservative in my thinking and if you were to say I was conservative, I'd say thanks Roberto, I am. No excuses, I live and think this way. As for labeling anyone, I don't believe I have. At least none of my posts have named anyone a liberal. However, anyone espousing the legalization of drugs is obviously very liberal in their thinking. Is that name calling? Of course not. Yet, there are liberals that don't want to be called a liberal and they kick and fuss when called one. Why?

We'd be living in Lala land if we said Ted Kennedy was conservative, right?

Idris.....

Excuse me Idris, but Border guards do not "sport" their weapons, they wear them as part of their uniform. I must correct you regarding US Border guards wearing them on "your" side. I cross the American/Canadian border frequently and your guys are on your side, and ours are on ours. When passing over (either way) each is in his own country.

Not when the new bridge is built. It is being set up in a new way. Don't worry we won't say much.

Robby.....

Of course I meant it Robby. "My stand is that illegal drug users are just that, illegal. Addicts are are criminals that hurt not only themselves, but their fellow man as well."

No where in my post have I mentioned anthing about prescription drugs. The conversation is about illegal drugs.

I am beginning to understand (I think) what the problem is here. It is a problem of definitions. Every addict does not use illegal drugs. People who are addicted to nicotine and alcohol (both of which are drugs but are legal) are not criminals. People who are addicted to illegal drugs are not the only kind of addicts. Addiction to alcohol is the cause of untold number of deaths of themselves and others. Addiction to nicotine is the cause of untold numbers of people dying by their own hand. Both are slow suicides. All addicts are not criminals.

You say:--"The conversation is about illegal drugs" and that is where the differences arose. Many people here have been talking about addiction which is a much broader topic than just illegal drugs.

You mention prescription drugs. If a physician prescribes one of the benzodiazepines which he has a right to do and, after continuing this for a while, the patient becomes an addict, is the patient a criminal? As I mentioned in an earlier posting, there is no such thing as an illegal drug. A drug is an inanimate object. It is how the drug is used which defines legality or illegality.

I repeat my question. Do the majority of participants here want to continue the topic of drugs or not? If you do, we will continue. If not, what are your thoughts about the Fourth Amendment?

Robby

Idris.....

You said something that took me back several years. Back in the sixties on my first of several trips to the UK, I remembered a Bobbie had been shot dead by a nutcake. Obviously he knew the Bobbie was unarmed. Just my own thoughts on your comment that the British didn't need weapons until recently was cause to reflect that they always needed them. Do you know that the Brittish had armed squads that were called out on special occasions? The police were armed, but only special teams.

Robby....

Your #1309. I agree sir.

Robby....I am ready to move on....I think everyone has given ther views and any thing more is just repetition......

I feel very strongly that the fourth admendment about seaching a car or residence with out a warrent, or explicit reason, is a very important issue, and this attitude that "I have nothing to hide, so search me if you will", is a very dangerous to our civil rights here in the US...

I am shocked that Texas can stop cars for no apparent reason, and search them....

We don't do that here in Maine... No way, no how.....

Neither do we set up 'road blocks' whenever we feel like bagging someone....

dapph

Dapph.......

I remember the CHP roadblocks set-up to find duces (502's) (drunk drivers). They were very affective and I had been stopped several times. I didn't mind at all and had they asked me to open the trunk of my car I would have gladly complied. Why? The answer is simple. #1, I had absolutely nothing to hide. #2, I never drove under the influence. #3, They were performing a service for all drivers that wanted to arrive home safely. Were my so-called rights violated? That's silly. My rights were being protected by men doing a thankless job of protecting me and my family. This business of "Protecting my rights" has gotten way out of hand. The Me generation has taken control. Up here in Idaho the "rights" people are seeing black government choppers rising over the brow of the hill and peeking into little old ladies kitchens. Our society needs trained police to protect them. Now, are we talking about out of control cops? That's another issue and those are the ones we should be after, not the majority of darned good guys out there keeping us safe.

Robby - Yes, on changing the topic because the posts demonstrate that opinions vary and they were clearly expressed.

I wonder why the translator chose "manner" instead of "standards of behaviour" to translate "moeurs" in French, because manner does not exactly convey the meaning I understand in AdeT's book. It could be because translators insist on using one word instead of several when there are no single word equivalent.

I continue to read the book and because AdeT. wanted to go into politics, he wanted to know how a democracy worked in America, he thought that if he could teach it to his countrymen, he could then apply it. I doubt that he ever got elected. You can't teach democracy, you can only live in it after it has been passed into law.

Could anyone tell me briefly what the Fourth Amendment is? Excuse my ignorance on such an important item in the American Constitution.

“It’s probably too bad that more of you have not experienced watching your loved ones going through the indescribable agony of drug withdrawal and death as a consequence of an unconquerable drug addiction.” ----------------mike cantor

“mike cantor's wish/hope that others will suffer misfortune so they can appreciate true suffering is rather sad, and completely uncalled for. why would anyone wish that on others?” ------bob c.

Bob, you certainly have a way with words, especially when you misinterpret the true meaning of what is being said.

What I was trying to convey, obviously rather unsuccessfully, is that there are experiences in life that can only be fully understood by those who actually experience them. Almost every one of us experiences some form of pain and suffering in their lives. It is a part of the life experience itself and directly contributes to the knowledge, character, and depth of compassion which forms the basis of how we interact with others. It is also true however that there are extremes of pain and suffering that are not fully understood by those who are aware that they exist but have not, themselves, undergone certain horrific experiences but only know of them by reading about them through various types of media. Honest and sincere sympathy is generated for a little while and then sublimated in the perfectly honest interest of coping with our own individual problems.

Americans, for example, have never known the mind shattering experience of being roused from their sleep at night and fleeing to bomb shelters, only to emerge from their underground hovels to discover the terrible loss of life and existence experienced during the bombing of London by the Nazi Luftwaffen. I, as every other American, should always be grateful that this nation has never had that experience. Does that mean that my “wish/hope” that enemy bombs will someday be dropped on this nation’s cities so that our people will more fully understand that which the British experienced during WWII?

No, I am simply not that heartless or uncomprehending of the nature of the pain and suffering experienced by others. Rather, I believe that it is something which should not be forgotten and which our leaders as well as our people must keep at the forefront of their deliberations when contemplating potential acts which could involve us in conflicts which will be indescribably worse than any that have yet been experienced on this earth.

The very same thing is true of what Lee and I believe is the unalterable consequence of the legality of drugs. I am no more a great writer than I am an orator of profound rhetoric, but I believe that God has given me some small ability to articulate my thoughts about the real intensity of pain related to drug addiction, in the hope that some may learn from the benefit of experience which some of us have experienced in the every day world of truth and reality not supposition or hearsay.

You are, I am sure, totally familiar with the names of Dachau, Bergen-Belsen and Auschwitz. Do you also really feel that you are as familiar with that what it must feel like to stand, stripped totally naked, together with all of the men, women and children of your family in an unlit gas chamber while poison gas rains down on everyone you hold dear choking the life out of them till the screams of terror subside knowing that all of their bodies will end up in flaming crematoriums?

Of course you don’t and why should you? You, and many others like you, have not personally experienced the overwhelming pain and suffering of the victims of that epochal period of man’s inhumanity to man and I personally thank God that you have not. But would you not agree that those examples of what wars can bring about should periodically be placed before the gaze of civilization in order to remind us of what must not be forgotten or misplaced in our memories to avoid their reoccurrence?

I am no more a great writer than I am an orator of profound rhetoric, but I believe that God has given me some small ability to articulate my thoughts about the real intensity of pain related to drug addiction, in the hope that some may learn from the benefit of experience in the every day world of truth and reality not supposition or hearsay.

Contrary to your statement of interpretation, I have never wished that others suffer misfortune so that they can appreciate true suffering. I don’t need to! You will wish it on yourselves, if that is what you truly desire. And that is what is truly sad and completely uncalled for.

On a final note, I must regretfully agree that it is time to change to a different topic. There is nothing to be gained, that I can see, by continuing a discussion, which, somewhere along the way, became a narrative of character analysis rather than one of positive affirmation of opinion.

People Rule!

Mike

We are grateful to Eloise for sharing her thoughts after reading deTocqueville's book in its original French language. I see no problem, Eloise, is using the term "standards of behavior." Practically everyone knows what that means and if we look back for a moment to our discussion regarding drugs (for just a moment, we are not returning to that topic!!), we can see that standards of behavior fit perfectly into what we were discussing.

As for the Fourth Amendment, Eloise, if you will back up just a few postings, you will see where I posted the Fourth Amendment in its exact words.

Any thoughts regarding the Fourth Amendment as applied (or not applied) to the mother arrested for not using seat belts or the Chinese woman arrested and held for two days? A key phrase in that amendment says "but upon probable cause." How should that be determined? What specific measures should be used? Is it purely a subjective thing dependent upon the arresting officer, his state of mind at the time, and perhaps even his upbringing?

Robby

I'm always surprised when someone doesn't understand how impressive are the words, "An unfortunate choice of words. Sorry." There is no substitute that brings as much respect.

------------------------------------------------------

This portion of the discussion on drugs, though not a very good down-to-earth conversation on the issues, has nonetheless helped me with something.

I had never thought anything close to this about people who are conservative and liberal, but I will want to keep in mind these new thoughts and test them out in other places.

People here who have identified themselves as conservative don't have much trust in the average citizen, talk about the average citizen as if she is 12 years old and cannot make healthy decisions for herself, cannot see the average citizen as wise enough to manage his own rights. They have talked about government as a tough parent and a citizen as a kid that's bound to go wrong or has already gone wrong for demanding her own rights. Often talks of outside forces (Hollywood) as a corrupting influence of citizens---those kids..

No wonder people with conservative beliefs think that decriminalizing formerly illegal drugs would bring on the worst kind of chaos...since citizens aren't viewed as wise adults, but unruly kids.

People here who have identified themselves as liberal often talk/think of the government and decision makers (with many enforcement branches) as aging, out-of-touch, not very smart adoptive parents (or foster parents)....parents who refuse to treat citizens as adults (even though most of them are around 50 or older), parents who make fun of the citizens, talk down to them, ridicule their ideas, and never sit down just to listen. People here who think of themselves as liberal feel disrespected, discounted, sometimes like a family outcast.

They would not be surprised if their ideas on decriminalization were ridiculed, discounted by the government. "Turn up your hearing aid!!," they want to shout at the government (aging adoptive parents).

betty

You said that so well, Betty ....

Thankyou!

My mother was a 'conservative', and her favorite word was "Should" .. They seem to have streached out the word "Should" to "Because it is the right thing to do"...

Yes, I am very liberal and I guess that is because I grew up in a conservative home and 'being liberal' seemed The right thing for me to be!

Funny huh?

My kids are bi-partizan... Older two conservatives, younger two liberals, like their Mom...

8>)

dapph

The exclusionary rule states that no object may be used in court as evidence if obtained illegally or without a proper search warrant. The Supreme Court in 1921 held that although the government could seize contraband, it could not seize property simply to use as evidence. There are certain cases where evidence from warrantless searches is admissible, such as when something is in plain view, at an airport, during an arrest, or when there is no time to obtain a warrant.

The exclusionary rule prevents the police, in their zealousness to solve crimes, from violating the civil liberties of American citizens. Warrants can only be issued by judges if there is "probably cause" to believe that evidence of wrongdoing will be found. Warrants must contain the date, location, and time of a search, what is expected to be found, and the grounds for believing that such an object will be found in the place indicated.

Many feel that these institutional safeguards are what distinguishes America from less civilized nations. They maintain that our civil liberties must be protected above all else. The problem in some peoples' minds is that a person should not have contraband in his/her possession to begin with. If a police officer or investigator uncovers contraband in an unconstitutional manner, they feel that there is no reason to pretend that the material does not exist.

What is your thought?

Robby

There are some of us here who understand addiction far better than you do, even with all of your professional experience. There is at least one here who understands the Holocaust and its horrors more than you ever could. Roberto mentioned once that he is of a minority religion, remember?

I suggest that discretion and caution be used when you make general, blanket statements about things you yourselves have only witnessed as observers, regardless what your particular and singular involvement as an observer was, is, or has been.

Mal

As we end discussing what was obviously a very emotional subject, I would be interested in any comments here having to do with the topic of "forgiveness."

Robby

Again...It is very generous to open up your car/house to law law enforcement person to search without a appropriate warrent, especially when you are clean, upstanding citizens, that do no wrong...

Just hope that the law enforcement person is as clean and upstanding as you are.....

It wouldn't be the first time that dope was planted on some unsuspecting young (racial profiling beware) citizens in order to procure an arrest..

I am not anti law enforcement, in fact, in my next life I would put law enforcement high on my list of things to be.

But the fourth amendment is there for a reason ... protection of our civil rights. Protection from some people who might take advantage of our good natures..

'you have a right remain silant..' etc....

dapph

Thanks Robby. I read the Fourth Amendment and should I ever be arrested on false assumption, I probably would think: "They don't know me, but they are doing a job that I think is essestial for the security of the country, therefore they are protecting me". Aw! shuks, I don't know how I would react since I have a very short fuse sometimes.

Yes forgiveness. the meaning of that word changed my whole life around. Since then I can live in peace with myself and with others.

"In America all those vices which tend to impair the purity of morals, and to destroy the conjugal tie, are treated with a degree of severity which is unknown in the rest of the world."

Alexis deTocqueville

Why? Is it our Puritan background?

As we continue to follow along under the sub-topic of Law, any guesses as to what is one of the greatest concerns about crime in America?

According to the technology company EDS, which commissioned the poll, more than two-thirds of Americans are concerned about the threat of hackers and cybercriminals!!

Said the president of that company, "Americans are not satisfied with existing protections from computer criminals." He added: "The future of the cybermarket place will depend, to a large degree, on safety and security." Some technology companies have expressed reluctance to report hacker attacks because of the inconvenience and embarrassment of an investigation.

Any experiences or fears in this area?

Robby

Not to stop the flow of conversation but your news media (at least what i can get locally) is not covering the protest in Ottawa re the coming FTAA. I'll leave you with a link as some have been arrested for attempting to climb over the barriers and get into the Lester B. Pearson building in Ottawa.

Please note that Canada too recognizes the right to peaceful protest etc.

Free Trade Protest re FTAA

MARILYN, for your input. You have expressed in very few words what I probably couldn't have said as well in far too many.

I am somewhat surprised, though perhaps I shouldn't be, at how easily one can be willing to abridge the Constitution of the United States and the bill of rights, not just the fourth amendment. Law abiding citizens are not the ones who usually need its protections. It is mainly to protect those who are accused of or actually involved in crime where its use becomes important. One's home is suposed to be one's castle, the right of protection from illegal search and seizure is supposed to be protected by the Constitution. When these rights are compromised, for whatever reason, our democracy is weakened.

Lawlessness on the part of government, used in enforcing the law, is an abomination that can and more than likely will lead to the forfeiture of the rights of all our country's citizens, and eventually the destruction of our way of life. If the rights of the least of us are infringed, God help the rest of us.

Bob C

There are protesters who are being arrested at the Lester B. Pearson building. This is how it is working. The demonstrators have been warned that then must not go over or attempt to go over the barricades. A protester who wants to be arrested comes up to the barricade, reads a statement and then climbs over the barricade. They are immediately arrested. Others who do not wish to be arrested stand further from the barricade, read a statement and then join the larger group of protesters and so do not get arrested.

“There are some of us here who understand addiction far better than you do, even with all of your professional experience. There is at least one here who understands the Holocaust and its horrors more than you ever could. Roberto mentioned once that he is of a minority religion, remember?” -----------Malryn

In the so-called “war on drugs”, you are either a victim, a participant, a combatant or a disinterested observer! That choice is available to each and everyone of us. Never having used illegal drugs, I have never made any claim of intimate personal knowledge of that of a “user”. I am firmly convinced that those supporting the legalization of drugs are much less aware of the consequences of addiction than those who are attempting to bring the darkest side of that problem to the attention of individuals who believe that the world would be a better place if only illegal drugs did not invite punitive restrictions on their use. Logic and reality bespeak otherwise! To those “who understand addiction better than you do, even with all of your professional experience”, this forum is available for them to voice their declarations. I do not see or hear those voices any more than you do!

You further state that “there is at least one here who understands the Holocaust and its horrors more than you ever could. Roberto mentioned once that he is of a minority religion, remember?” If you believe that being a member of a minority religion automatically gives one the insight to recognize the tragic consequences of the Holocaust to a greater degree than others, than I can only respectfully, and with some incredulity, take exception to that position.

For your edification, the name “Cantor” which I proudly proclaim in everything I have ever written, clearly signifies to those more knowledgeable than yourself, that I am a Jew and not only a member of a minority religion. If indeed, “Roberto understands the Holocaust more than you ever could”, than he must share he same knowledge that I have of my family being incinerated in the crematoriums and vanishing up the smokestacks in the stench of burning flesh only to disappear from the face of the earth as though they never existed!

“I suggest that discretion and caution be used when you make general, blanket statements about things you yourselves have only witnessed as observers, regardless what your particular and singular involvement as an observer was, is, or has been.” --------Malryn

You need have no further concerns about my lack of discretion and caution concerning statements about things that many of us have witnessed regardless of the depth of that involvement.

If the involvement and professional hands-on experience of those who, on a daily basis, fight in the trenches of this “war” are of no consequence to those in this forum who may disagree with our views, than my participation in this topic of discussion is at an end.

People Rule!

Mike

I hope you won't leave. There are lots of us listening (reading). So don't leave.

mikecantor - 11:18am Apr 2, 2001 PST (#1333 of 1333)

“There are some of us here who understand addiction far better than you do, even with all of your professional experience. There is at least one here who understands the Holocaust and its horrors more than you ever could. Roberto mentioned once that he is of a minority religion, remember?” -----------Malryn

In the so-called “war on drugs”, you are either a victim, a participant, a combatant or a disinterested observer! That choice is available to each and everyone of us. Never having used illegal drugs, I have never made any claim of intimate personal knowledge of that of a “user”. I am firmly convinced that those supporting the legalization of drugs are much less aware of the consequences of addiction than those who are attempting to bring the darkest side of that problem to the attention of individuals who believe that the world would be a better place if only illegal drugs did not invite punitive restrictions on their use. Logic and reality bespeak otherwise! To those “who understand addiction better than you do, even with all of your professional experience”, this forum is available for them to voice their declarations. I do not see or hear those voices any more than you do!

You further state that “there is at least one here who understands the Holocaust and its horrors more than you ever could. Roberto mentioned once that he is of a minority religion, remember?” If you believe that being a member of a minority religion automatically gives one the insight to recognize the tragic consequences of the Holocaust to a greater degree than others, than I can only respectfully, and with some incredulity, take exception to that position. For your edification, the name “Cantor” which I proudly proclaim in everything I have ever written, clearly signifies to those more knowledgeable than yourself, that I am a Jew and not only a member of a minority religion. If indeed, “Roberto understands the Holocaust more than you ever could”, than he must share he same knowledge that I have of my family being incinerated in the crematoriums and vanishing up the smokestacks in the stench of burning flesh only to disappear from the face of the earth as though they never existed!

“I suggest that discretion and caution be used when you make general, blanket statements about things you yourselves have only witnessed as observers, regardless what your particular and singular involvement as an observer was, is, or has been.” --------Malryn

You need have no further concerns about my lack of discretion and caution concerning statements about things that many of us have witnessed regardless of the depth of that involvement.

If the involvement and professional hands-on experience of those who, on a daily basis, fight in the trenches of this “war” are of no consequence to those in this forum who may disagree with our views, than my participation in this topic of discussion is at an end.

People Rule!

Mike

I would like to say I am surprised to find words placed in my mouth that I have not said, but there are those who's emotions always come to the front who deem it necessary to castigate their supposed foes. I believe it's called "sin nature." Personally, I was invited into this forum to share my experiences, thoughts, and opinions. I have, and have freely opened myself by giving insight to my position of being conservative. At your age you would have to be naive to not equate yourselves with either being conservative or liberal in your thinking. There are those who step over the line with "ultra" attached to either of these positions, and those are the one's who form fanatical thoughts, beliefs, and actions. I will not address the (cuts) made at Mike or myself, and I would hope for decency sake that future comments by my (our) detractors will address the content of my posts, and not what they THINK I am saying.

The worldly loved their booze and legalized it, and now billions (yes billions) of dollars are lost to traffic accidents, injury and hundreds of thousands of deaths resulting from man's choice to legalize this harmless drug. But then, I'm a conservative and my practicality in this regard should not be taken seriously.

Another vice of choice the world loves is the usage of their other killer called nicotine.

How many lives would have been saved had it not been for alcohol, cigarettes, and illegal drugs? Two of the killers are legal, so let's legalize em all and invest our money in cemetary acreage, and pine boxes, their a sure bet to bring a bull market.

Mike......

Having read your posts and having insight to where you were coming from, I was amazed to see you taken to the wall regarding your (perhaps our) lack of knowledge of the Holosaust. I just read your last two post regarding the disgusting animalistic demonization of those millions of innocent Jews at the hands of th Nazi regime, and it brought back memories of my visitation to the Museum(s) in Jerusalem, Israel dedicated to those lost in the Holocaust. No man alive could possibly walk through the adult or childrens museums and have a dry eye as the exited those buildings. Outside and between the two, is a statue (you may have visited there, and this is for those who have not) of a woman with her hands held to the sides of her face (she's wearing a cloak over her head), and it's called the "Silent scream." Your gut takes a turn or two as you stand looking up at her. But then, those of us who served in WW2 have zero insight to the madness of "Juden," ....."The Final Solution."

I might join you my friend.

I assume that no one here is part of the two-thirds of Americans who are concerned about the threat of hackers and cybercriminals and that as soon as we get away from the topic of drugs, there's not much crime left. Am I correct in my assumption?

Robby

Canada and the US are now officially in a trade war. This case has gone to the WTO three times already and Canada has won all three cases. This will probably take 10 years to settle and it will not be pleasant.

Softwood lumber dispute

You will have to get in line behind China, Idris!

LOL

This one is madness, Dapphne. Most of the lumber companies here are American owned.

The U.S. Supreme Court Justices are considering, for the second time, the case of Johnny Paul Penry of Texas, perhaps the country's best-known retarded death row inmate. Twelve years ago, while refusing to declare capital punishment unconstitutional as applied to the retarded, the Supreme Court set aside Mr. Penry's sentence on the ground that Texas law did not permit the jury to give full consideration to a defendant's diminished intellectual functioning as a factor mitigating against a death sentence.

In 1990, Mr. Penry was once again sentenced to death for the murder of a young woman in 1979. The question for the Supreme Court now is whether the amended instructions the jury received adequately addressed the deficiency the Justices identified in their earlier decision.

The broader question is whether the Eighth Amendment's prohibiion of cruel and unusual punishment bars execution of the retarded.

What do you folks think?

Robby

Canada does not have the death penalty and i am eternally thankful.

EIGHTH AMENDMENT TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

So, what happened???

It hasn't yet been decided. The Supreme Court has agreed to decide the constitutionality of executing mentally retarded murderers.

Robby

Here is a page that you may find of interest re Places where death penalty still exists and where it no longer exists

Thank you for that link, Idris. It certainly shows where America stands regarding the death penalty in relation to other nations.

Robby

The year the last person we executed in Canada was 1958. It was legally changed on the books in 1998. (i think)

I would not like to see either of you quit posting on this forum...Your thoughts and opinions have made it a much more interesting and balanced discussion in my view.....

You have a President who when Governor of Texas to my knowledge never stayed an execution. According to sources within the State Government he spent hardly any time reading the appeals!

As for an intellectually handicapped person being executed. This is barbaric! Why are you Americans not taking to the street en masse!

Seems to me the death penalty has not reduced crime in your country and as long as you have archaic attitudes towards bearing arms your murder statistics will never improve. Pity is, your innocent children are being murdered because no one has the guts to stand up against the National Riflemans Association and your armaments industry.

Sorry but the attitude towards guns in your country is beyond my comprehension.

Carolyn

Last week the Supreme Court announced that it would decide whether a growing national consensus against the execution of mentlly retarded murders meant that such executions should be deemed unconstitutional as "cruel and unusual punishment" in violation of the Eighth Amendment. The case, to be argued next Fall, could produce the court's most important ruling on the death penalty in years.

Experts say that abut 10 percent of the 3,600 prisoners on death row are mentally retarded, meaning they have IQ scores of less than 70.

Your thoughts?

Robby

There are many of us who indeed are fully educated about the Holocaust. I have kept a book entitled "Children of the Holocaust" so that I can show it to my grandchildren so they too will know.

We must not forget also that today too there is Genocide which has until recently largely been ignored by the World. I refer to the genocide in East Timor which took place over two decades whilst the world shut their eyes to the horrors taking place there.

We must cry out against Genocide regardless of where it is happening.

Carolyn

Carolyn, to tell you the truth there are so many things we now know about because of the news that it truly makes you sick sometimes. I know all of these things were present before but you would think some of it would have been stopped by now. You would think by now we would be saying "when" not "still."

Last month Earl Washington, Jr. was released from prison in Virginia after spending nine and a half years on death row for a murder he did not commit. Largely illiterate and with an I.Q. of 69, he confessed to the 1982 rape and murder of a woman even though no fingerprints or biological evidence tied him to the crime.

DNA tests later showed he was wrongly convicted and he was moved off death row in 1994 after his sentence was commuted to life. From prison he was taken to Virginia Beach where he had been sssigned to live in a home run by a support center for the mentally disabled.

Comments?

Robby

Dear Mike Cantor:

First of all, I don't know who you are any more than you know who I am. We have never met, and your name might be Michele Cantore, Roman Catholic Italian, for all I know. Right? My name is Freeman. Does that make me Jewish in your eyes? How does anyone know one's religion by the name she or he has?

At any rate, I have to tell you the closest I ever came to illegal drugs was in Europe when a friend from Amsterdam smoked hashish in the same room where I was. Hashish was perfectly legal in the country where I happened to be at that time.

I was not speaking about illegal drugs. It is entirely possible to become addicted to drugs that are legal, you know. Addiction is a disease which is treatable without imprisonment, and it exists all over the world. This is all I really was trying to say.

Wherever you are, Mike Cantor, I wish you well. I know you have done a good job at whatever you did and do, and I wish you every possible blessing in this life.

Mal

Yes, there did seem to be a misunderstanding in earlier postings. Some folks were confusing addiction with use of illegal drugs but now we have that all straigtened out. One can be addicted to alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine. (Don't laugh about the caffeine, it's not unusual for a person to enter treatment for that addiction. Withdrawal causes terrible headaches.)

Now on to discussing death penalities for those who are mentally deficient.

Robby

There is an execution pending in North Carolina right now of a mentally retarded man who has been tried and found guilty of committing murder. There are arguments that say he was aware of what he was doing, and the current law supports that. There are other views which say a person with his intelligence quotient of 70 could not possibly know what he was doing when the crime happened. Should people deemed as "mentally retarded" be hanged or executed in the United States for a crime like this, which the accused doesn't even remember? The determination of this case will have a great impact in future legal decisions in this country, I think.

At the same time, I wonder whether mental deficiencies such as the accused North Carolina man has and other severe mental illnesses should be considered by the courts before a verdict of execution is ever agreed upon.

Mal

Interesting how times change and interesting how the U.S. Supreme Court reflects (or wants to reflect) public opinion.

In a 1989 court opinion, Justice O'connor said:-"There is insufficient evidence of a national consensus against executing mentally retarded people convicted of capital offenses for us to conclude that it is categorically prohibited by the Eighth Amendment."

Since then, 13 states have rejected the death penalty for retarded killers and others are considering legislation to do so. When states without the death penalty are included in the count, half the states no longer execute mentally retarded killers.

Robby

Hopefully rather than the death there can be an alternative for the mentally retarded.

In the case of the man in North Carolina with an I.Q. of 67, the state attorney general said that while he demonstrated "borderline" intellectual functioning, he was not retarded and that the question was not properly part of his appeal. He had been scheduled to be put to death on March 2nd but won a stay of execution from a state trial judge.

As we go through life, what are the lines of demarcation and who decides them? If a person with an I.Q. of 70 is mentally retarded, will he then perhaps be free from being put death if the Supreme Court so rules. And will that mean that a person with an I.Q. of 71 may be legally killed? And what is the difference between "retarded" and "bordeline intellectual functioning?" Will a person lose or retain his life based upon the particular word or phrase used by a court? Who determines the I.Q. in the first place? What if one psychiatrist determines his I.Q. is 70 but another one says it is 71?

Are we talking here about Law or about Manners and Ethics and Morals? deTocqueville said (see quote above):--"Manners are moulded upon the feelings and notions of each individual, rather than upon an ideal model proposed for general imitation." (P249, Some Reflections on American Manners.)

Robby

Mental retardation is not necessarily a free ticket for violent behaviour any more than a number on an IQ test determine if a person is too 'retarded' to understand the extent of his crime.

What about schitzophrenics? They sometimes have a very high IQ, but they are still dangerous to society. If a mentally deficient person commits a crime, of course he/she should live in confinment or group home, but not executed. The problem is who determines the degree of the illness.

At least three professionnals should give a diagnostic.

Kiwi Lady - I agree with you about the arms control. First do yourselves what you preach others to do. The arms industry is too big to fight and governments have their hands tied behind their backs. The M.... is the most powerful organization on earth.

The threat of death row also looms over those who are not mentally retarded. Peter Limone sat in prison thirty-three years. For four years of that prison time, he was on death row. His wife eked out a living by sewing, and visited him faithfully twice a week, convinced of his innocence. His four children grew up and began having children of their own. He had a heart attack. His middle years passed, and they all passed, inside.

Now, at 66, he has been returned to his family, a circle so devoted that two dozen relatives and friends, from 2-year-old twin granddaughters to an 82-year old brother, came to court last month to watch a judge confirm that Mr. Limone was officially free and the case aginst him officially dropped.

What had happened? He was framed by a hit man cooperating with prosecutors and left to languish by Federal Bureau of Investigation agents who apparently knew he was innocent but never spoke out. Said his lawyer: "It was disgusting, what was done to him. It should be chilling to everyone else."

Robby

We had a rash of "lifers" in the past few years that were found through DNA testing to be innocent. If we had had the death penalty they would have been dead. Bad enough we took took their youth and incarcerated them for so long. Terrible.

from these discussions, in order to catch my breath. I don't wish to be a cause of nor encourgement for further emotional distress on the part of others that is obviously occurring.

Bob C

Bob C says:--"I don't wish to be a cause of nor encourgement for further emotional distress on the part of others that is obviously occurring."

I asssure you, Bob, no one here has that much power.

Robby

In proceedings over several years, Judge Mark L. Wolf of Federal District Court turned up instances of F.B.I. misdeeds so disturbing that they prompted an investigation by a Department of Justice task force and the establishment of guidelines on how agents interact with informants and what they must tell prosecutors about those relationships.

Testimony has painted some F.B.I. agents corrupt, and others as so intent on cracking the Mob in New England a generation ago that they entered into relationships with "top echelon informants" and let them literally get away with murder.

Please note the underline above.

Robby

For those who were on death row and have now been exonerated, the burden that they have lived with for so long has been lifted. The system that ordered them to die has given them a chance to live.

But another burden has been put in its place. Whether they have been out of prison for less two or for more than ten, these men have struggled to carve out a stable existence. They have fought to rclaim normality after the isolation of death row, the fear of execution, the confusion, disbelief and rage of having once -- and falsely -- been labeled an unredeemable murderer. They have also confronted broken marriages, job discrimination and deep suspicion from neighbors, employers and colleagues. And they have undertaken their new lives with remarkably little help. The governments that spent millions trying to execute these men have offered little or no financial restitution or support.

These are the ones fortunate enough to have access to DNA testing. They were helped by lawyers who took their cases pro bono and brought them media attention.

In America or any other democracy, what should we now do for them?

Robby

Eloise,

It does not say much for any hope for the future if the M rule the world.

I still think our gun laws have helped to keep violence down in our streets. Ok the gangs have arms but we have regular police raids and confiscations. Arms are much harder to come by here. Military style weapons have been outlawed here and in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre. We outlawed them here after the second of the only two massacres we have had here. Thank goodness our kids cant get hold of hand guns! If they could I believe it would be no different here than in the States, the kids would use them.

Our country certainly is not perfect but I am glad we have made some inroads against needless slaughter with sensible legislation re guns.

We do have a strong anti gun lobby here thank goodness but equally we have a very strong gun owners lobby but reason thank goodness has prevailed.

We do not have the death penalty here.

Carolyn

We pay compensation in Canada. It is the least we can do for ruining a person's life.

Ten of the 12 states without capital punishment have homicide rates below the national average, FBI data shows, while half the states with the death penalty have homicide rates above the national average. According to a criminologist at the State University of New York at Albany, whatever the factors are that affect change in homicide rates, they don't seem to operate differently based on the presence or absence of the death penalty in a state.

The states without the death penalty are Michigan, Iowa, Minnesota, North Dakota, Wisconsin, Alaska, Hawaii, West Virginia, Rhode Island, Vermont, Maine and Massachusetts.

The death penalty has been employed much more often when the victim was white -- 82 percent of the victims of death row inmates were white, while only 50 percent of all homicide victims were white.

Robby

What the heck does colour have to do with it????

Perhaps those who lived in the South during the days of lynching can answer you.

Robby

Sorry, wasn't thinking.

Texas, easily one of the worst offenders on the subject at hand, passed a bill in February to require prosecuters to hang on to biological evidence so that a convicted person could use it in DNA testing, if requested at a later date. In many cases, this testing would be at the state's expense.

I have been watching a program on CBC tv about Canadian Prisons. There will be a talk via internet taking place at 9 est. The site is pretty clear as to what to push. The guests include a prisoner called Neil and a correctional officer. If anyone wishes to give a look this is the link CBC

There are 5,500 correctional officers for our prisons. Our incarceration rate is falling. The recidivism rate is 1%. 85% of all prisoners are behind high walls. 15% are in minimum security awaiting parole.

The first thing the males go through is a correctional plan. This includes education, drug treatment and phyc assessment. The women to not get this level of treatment.

There are 15 women in maximum security. Twelve of them are First Nations People. They are in a tiny segregated part of a men's prison in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. There are plans in the works to make right what is wrong here. The plans have been in the works for 6 years since P4W was closed down due to a terrible mess-up at P4W.

Oh, i forgot. Our correctional officers do not carry guns.

Can manners be legislated? About a month ago the Washington State Senate passed legislation aimed at cracking down on bullying. The Senate's education chairwoman said that the point was to foster a "culture of respect and civility." The bill would require each of the state's 269 school disticts to adopt strict policies against harassment, intimidation and bullying, and to train staff members to spot and deal with bullying. No specific penalties were set.

The measure passed 36-13.

Robby

There is something like that here and is called zero tolerance for certain infractions. Sometimes it has rather odd side effects. I really wonder if it will work.

It has also been stated by phycologists in the Toronto school system that those that bully are often bullied at home. I don't know that this is true. What do you think, Robby?

I often think it is the bigger and cooler folks that naturally bully the kids referred to as geeks.

Yes, it is often (not always) true that the bullier had been picked on earlier in life.

Well, you can't stick your nose in a household because one parent or sibling bullies the other. Seems a problem we can't really do anything about except push for awareness.

The bullied will simply learn to bully to protect themselves.

The Attorney General of South Carolina announced in January that it was "open season" on home invaders. He said he was acting in the interest of public safety. Most states require that prosecutors or judges determine that a resident's life was reasonably seen to be in danger, or that a felony was about to be committed before deadly force can be justified.

He said that too many homeowners were being needlessly investigated for clear acts of self-defense. He added: "The state is going to back the homeowner if their house is invaded. I'm putting home invaders on notice that if an occupant chooses to deadly force, thre will be no prosecution."

As we examine the use of Law in America, what is your reaction here?

Robby

If it wasn't for the winters there, I think I would move to that Canadien paradise! Nearly crime-free, a government that takes you under its wing and provides you with free health care (free?), and politicians that listen to the public! Wow! (But then again, Canada doesn't seem to have the ethnic makeup we do, or the same history, or the same social problems.) Well, I can sit back and wait for those totally unfamiliar with our local situations to find solutions, even though I may disagree with some of them. My point being that not all is as it appears to one in different circumstances.

As for those found innocent on death row, how many of them were also sentenced for other crimes, or would have been if the prosecuters had not chosen to ignore them because murder is naturally the more heinous crime? I am just curious, as their backgrounds never seem to be mentioned.

I agree with South Carolina as far as the use of "deadly force" to protect one's home and family in the case of home invasion. Those of you who live in an urban environment have much better police protection than those of us in rural settings, where police response time is slow. We have to protect ourselves, and if the use of force is required, so be it. And I'm not about to give up my only means of protection because someone doesn't like guns.

My reaction is if one "invades" someone elses home the homeowner should take whatever measures he feels necessary to protect himself....

LouD, Canada is the most ethnically diverse nation on the face of the earth. Believe me, we have our problems too. We also have a very active Mulicultural Departments, Federally and Provincially. Canada does however have a very different beginning than that of the USA. We also have our misunderstanding there. It will take a lot of good will and good luck to keep this country together. The United Nations has granted Canada the honour of being the best place in the world in which to live for many years now. We are proud of that. We also know we have a long way to go to be the Just Society we wish to be.

Healthcare is not free it is simply single payer. In other words no HMO's or the like. Yet! Through NAFTA you perceive our system to be wrong as it is not "for profit." NAFTA is a threat to our healthcare system. Our healthcare system is much cheaper to run per capita than yours, due to the single payer system. Every Dr. is an independant business person. We pay for our system through our taxes. Free it ain't.

)

I am in agreement with Lou D in the statement of the rural setting and police response to a call for their aid as a crime is taking place. I am lucky enough to live in an area that is relatively crime free; however, were a emergency take place, how responsive that cry for help would be answered is unknown to me. I doubt it would be quickly enough that the culprit would be caught. I must say I am for the right to bear arms for domestic protection. However I would never approve the "shoot to kill" mentality. Shoot to wound only unless the apparent perpetrator was obviously out to kill.

My thoughts concerning the death penalty are: we should be more concerned about the sacredness of life than who deserves to live or die. There is always the possibility of redemption in a human being and, I feel to ignore that is a barbarity.

Thank you for your assurance.

Bob C

There is no doubt in my mind that the world is going through a transformation. Old ideas are being rethought. It requires vertical thinking and not horizontal thinking. The world is smaller now and with trade agreements popping up all over the world we find ourselves cheek to jowl with ideas we have never had to pay much attention to before.

We can see this as an opportunity to make a better world or run in fear from these ideas. New ideas and ways of thinking of things is very upsetting for it means we may be wrong. It means we have to change and change is a very hard thing for most humans to accept.

Who knows where all of this will end but i believe Canada to be a much better place for the changes here. Whether my beloved country holds together through all of these changes is not clear. I most certainly hope so.

The question is arising in South Carolina -- exactly what constitutes a home invasion?"

The boundaries of the new policy have been put to the test. A 36-year old woman was charged with willful homicide in February. She had an argument with the father of her child. Although he lives about 20 miles away, he kept clothes and other possessions in her apartment and visited regularly.

She said that he slapped her and put her in a headlock after she said she wanted to end their relationship. She broke free, ordered him out of the apartment, then slammed the door behind him and locked it. He broke open the door with his shoulder, and when he found her in the kitchen, she stabbed him in the chest with a filet knife, according to her statement. He staggered out to his car where the police found him dead.

The police considered the incident a fairly routine case of domestic violence. She was charged with murder on the assumption that she would get a chance to convince a judge or jury that she acted in self defense. The state Attorney General considered her to have acted in self defense in compliance with his new policy and directed the prosecutor not to prosecute her. All charges against her were dropped and she was set free.

Reactions?

Robby

"As for those found innocent on death row, how many of them were also sentenced for other crimes, or would have been if the prosecuters had not chosen to ignore them because murder is naturally the more heinous crime? I am just curious, as their backgrounds never seem to be mentioned."....

They can be taken back to court and retried... and if quilty, time served should be minus the time they already served...

If innocent, they should be supplimented for time spent by the states or government ...

And also supplimented from the difference between the time they have to spend for the latest trial, and the time they actually spent...

The defence of an official stance is almost undefensible. Who termirminates what states of being are justifiable? The defense of those defending our outlet of energy of changes in our defense of our lock-in-value of our value of sense of care. We must care of our defense care!!! I truly want to predict what it means to care about notable rejection and the victory that one becomes honest in their posting.

The "defense of habitation" is a widely recognized principle in American law, allowing the use of deadly force in most states if an occupant reasonably believe that someone is trying to enter his or her home violently to commit a felony. BUT criminologists say that each case is usually evaluated separately by prosecutors, grand juries or judges. Said a professor of criminal justice at the University of Carolina:--"It's a question of fact. That's why we have juries."

But the State Attorney General said he was tired of seeing homeowners who defended their homes dragged through lengthy investigations and trials before being cleared, when it was obvious to him that they did nothing wrong. He said: "We need to send the message that the home is sacred ground, period."

Robby

I meant to add that the State Attorney General previously mentioned has previously made headlines by advocating the use of an "electric sofa," a metaphorical way to speed up executions, and prosecuting women for murder if their fetus died after they used illegal drugs.

Robby

Lou D - Its the first time I hear that Canada is a paradise. Well I have to think hard about this be but you may be right. Where I live right in the center of the city I have yet to see a crime being committed. I often forget to lock my front door, and I sometimes come back home in the subway (metro to us) after dark and there is nobody on the street. But I feel the tension around me from my neighbours friends and family.

The health care system here might be cheaper than yours, but it is so bad in Quebec that patients are sent across the border for cancer treatment because our system has fallen too far behind and needs your help. My daughter is a nurse and she sees how patients are treated in hospitals. She says: Try to stay away from there mom if at all possible.

Our political situation causes language problems that no English parent wants to live here and send their children to French schools because it is the law here in Quebec. The English are fuming and the French are never satisfied. The province is forever nore economically depressed than the rest of the country.

I often envy Americans their freedom, climate and income. Don't forget that the grass is greener across the fense my dear.

I imagine my opinion on the home invaders thing is going to be unpopular, but I'm all for it. If nothing else, it would eliminate a person having to drag IN to the house a person who was beating down the door or breaking through a window once you had summoned up the nerve to shoot them. Yes, I'm being facetious, but there used to be, I believe, some sort of kink in the law that the person had to be well into your home before you could defend yourself? Imagine a woman alone having to sit and wait while the person broke in and got far enough in to shoot....while waiting for the police to arrive, if the phone lines were not cut?

People in different areas perhaps have different ideas of what constitutes property. If somebody is breaking in my house and I have enough strength to hold the gun still (a policeman once told me that's a woman's greatest fault, they want to try to talk to the invader or intruder and it's too late when they try to reach for something to defend themselves)...then I think it's ludicrous to drag me through a court for simply defending myself.

Insult on to injury, and my defense lawyers won't be free either. A long way from it.

No person has any right to break in your house or beat down your doors and threaten you, and in many places it's pretty dangerous to the intruder to do so.

I support the home owner's right to defend himself, and think it's a good thing, and I bet you if it is passed, there will be less prosecutions of innocent homeowners, and less break ins.

From a farm in rural South Carolina, but born in the big NE city of South Philadelphia.

ginny

It does seem that everyone worries about the criminal's "rights." No one seems to care about the victim. One case I am thinking about right now is not a home invasion but a little girl who is dead. To be sure her killer was only 13 but it has brought all of O.J.Simpson's Lawyers to his defense. (They weren't anywhere around during the trial. They showed up AFTER the trial.) The little girl is hardly ever mentioned.

I also believe that deadly force is ok if someone is breaking into my home , or physically attacking me or my family outside of the home...

I have a knife that is right here on my desk, if someone should breakdown my door, which I have secured with a board, so at least they will have to make a lot of noise getting in, I will use it if the circumstances warrent it.....

I will seduce them to come closer so that I will get in at one good shot ...(before they take it away from me and slit my throat)...

(We are talking deadly force here, now aren't we...8>)

I am a non violant person and don't do guns...

dapph (living on the rocky coast of Maine, in the heart of our biggest city, Portland, and loving it...)

To discuss what one would do in the case of an emergency invasion is really rather silly. I would resort to anything that would preserve my life. The invasion of my home would automatically put the OTHER life in jeapordy. Until that lesson is learned and learned well we all are potential victims of a lazy law system.

I also stand corrected, my husband has just come home and says it's still the law that the person has to be within your own house, that is to protect, in crowded neighborhoods, those who may be wandering in a confused manner or wandering through your yard. So the law still stands.

ginny

Many of us in America spend much time and effort complaining about what is going on in our nation and, of course, we have the right to do so. We are a Democracy. But Eloise from Canada gives us pause to ponder and reflect -- "I often envy Americans their freedom, climate and income. Don't forget that the grass is greener across the fence my dear."

Regarding the protection of our own homes, there seems to be a general consensus which Cathy sums up very nicely: -- "The invasion of my home would automatically put the OTHER life in jeopardy."

Robby

Eloise, there is a lack of radiologist across Canada. I believe each Provincial government is not only pushing this speciality but paying for a good deal of the education required. We have also lost a few to the USA. In time about 60% of them return to Canada but in the meantime we have an aging population, a small population and a growing need for certain specialists. I hope we can find a way to bring the system into balance very soon.

I also note that the ex-Premier of Saskatchewan has now been given the duty of looking at our healthcare system needs from coast to coast to coast. I hope Romanow comes up with some new answers to some old problems.

)

Here is a quizzer for you under the topic of Law.

Emergency medical technicians in Ashland, Mass., thought the 39-year old woman found slumped in a bathtub was dead. So did the funeral director until he heard a gurgling noise coming from the body bag. He quickly unzipped the body bag and held the woman's mouth open to keep her air passages clear. By the time emergency technicians arrived, the woman was breathing. She recovered.

The State Department of Public Health is investigating to determine whether emergency workers acted properly.

Question:--"Was the way this was handled a crime?

Robby

The woman found alive by the funeral director was the victim of negligence. If there is any charge it should be of negligence in the care of a patient. It has happened here also.

Radiologists - Here we have a drastic shortage of radiologists so people requiring radiation treatment for cancer are having long waits. In some cases this may be causing death. It is scary to know our cancer treatment is now behind the eight ball and has been for some time. This also includes the use of chemotherapy where a certain amount of money is provided for the drugs if you need more and cant pay you do not get the treatment. Our taxes are reasonably high if you include the 12.5% tax on every goods and service provided including basic foods. Once we had one of the best health systems in the world.

I do not know what the answer is to all the problems which beset the world these problems mainly affect the underprivileged. Does anyone really care if people can't afford decent defence and are wrongly convicted of a crime or they die because they have no medical insurance? I meet lots of people who do not give these things a second thought. Have we gone backwards and adopted the British 19th century attitude of Laisse Faire!

Carolyn

Carolyn, we don't find a way through immigration to get far more young people into our countries we are all in big trouble. The populations are getting old and there are not enough young folks. Them's the breaks of the demographics. Each first world country is also offering the world to young well trained professionals from all over the world. We are certainly in a mess.

I would also agree with your position on the lady.

Trouble in Paradise? It seems that health care by government is not quite the best when it comes to certain treatments. We have heard from some of those who seem to love their health care, but with certain exceptions. If one's life is at stake, I wager no system that can provide needed treatment will be scorned. There's a fly in every ointment.

As for the lady found in the tub, wasn't it reported that there were no life signs, no pulse? Isn't it possible that the technicians, who are not MD's, were not actually negligent, but were not trained for such a situation? It isn't the first time that people have been declared "dead", but later proved to be in a state resembling death. Perhaps any declaration of negligence should be left to those who are familiar with every aspect of the case.

Idris, how many young foreign doctors are coming to practice in Canada? I know we have many of them coming to the US, and have been for many years.

A Colonial historian from Emory University helps to dispel what he calls the "gun myth," the idea that during the time of the expansion of the frontier, that there was a "gun over every mantel" the omnipresent hunting weapon. While searching through over a thousnd probate records from the frontier sections of New England and Pennsylvania for 1763 to 1790, he found that only 14 percent of the men owned guns and over half of those guns were unusable. He examined many different kinds of evidence, trying to find where the famous guns were hiding. and learned that individually owned guns were not really in hiding -- they were bardly in existence. Before the Civil war, the average American had little reason to go to the expense and trouble of acquiring, mastering and maintaining a tool of such doubtful utility as a gun.

In the Colonial period the gun meant the musket, an imported item that cost the equivalent of two months pay for a skilled artisan. Without constant attention its iron rusted and blacksmiths were ill equipped to repair it (they shoed horses and made plows). The musket was not efficient for self-defense or hunting. It was not accurate beyond a few hundred feet (it had no sight, and soldiers were instructed not to aim, since volleys relied on mass impact). It frequently misfired and was cumbersome to reload, awkward qualities for individual self-defense.

Most murders were committed with knives, and -- contrary to the myth of primitive violence -- there were few murders outside Indian warfare. In North Carolina, for excample, on the average there was only one murder every two years between 1663 and 1740.

Where is the origin of "violent America?"

Robby

LouD, not enough. We have many primary care Drs. who are immigrants, especially in larger centres where they are much needed by their communities.

I have no idea, Robby. Maybe it came with John Wayne movies or some other myth producing machine.

If most individuals did not own guns, where were the weapons for the militia? The state was supposed to supply them, but rarely did. In 1754 there were only enough guns to arm a sixth of the eligible militiamen. Colonies had to take a gun census to know what was available. Weapons were confiscated for militia use if the owners could not use them. The Emory University professor sums it up: "No gun ever belonged unqualifiedly to an individual. It cold not be seized in a debt case, could not be sold if that sale left a militia member without a firearm, had to be listed in every probate inventory and returned to the state if state-owned, and coud be seized whenever needed by the state for alternative purposes. Guns might be privately owned, but they were state-controlled."

Where and when was the change from that philosophy to the attitude toward guns today?

Robby

Seriously Robby, if you could pinpoint a year when the change in attitude happened you could probably figure out when this myth started. It could have been the movie industry or something like that.

People do believe what they see in movies. "Saving Private Ryan" did happen, it just so happens it was a Canadian story and not an American one. Now i'm sure most Americans believe it was an American event and person.

I have listened to interviews about this phenomenon and how it works on the population. Myths are often just that, myths.

Exactly!

Idris, it is like that submarine movie Hollywood made last year. They portrayed it as a heroic American event, and it was totally a BRITISH one.

My country does have egg on its face when it comes to relating historic events. And we point fingers at the Russians for doing the same thing.

Oh well; it is all a game the boys play. A dangerous game, but a game nevertheless. Thank goodness we have journalists and historians who eventually ferret out the truth. Problem then becomes how to convince the public school textbook writers of that truth!

ROBBY - I think the issue of wide-spread gun ownership and indiscrimate killing (or injuring) was begun much earlier. For example, the earlier settlers in the American West, who encountered the Native Americans; the Easterners who traveled great distances under harsh circumstances to claim lands in the West were often in threatening situations which could be dealt with by force; the gold miners along the Western "gold coast" - or those merchants who took advantage of the miners; the rogue cowboys who left their underpaid jobs and took up banditry (although they have been romanticized by Hollywood and the pulp fiction that churned out in the early 19th century); the "rustlers" who infiltrated the large cattle herds during the long drives from the ranches in the southwest to the railheads, etc. All of these folks were armed, ready to defend (or attack as the case may be). Following the civil war, when many of the soldiers (both Northern and Southern) relocated to the Western USA, especially Texas. There has ben a long history of weapons ownership in this country - many years before Hollywood - and "defending one's property, family and home" is part of the American way of life. "You threaten me and mine and that's the LAST time you'll threaten anybody," seems to say it all for that time period and has come to be the message in many areas of this country now.

I'm originally from California, lived in several Western states, before settling in Maryland. I was raised with the idea that "you simply do not threaten my family, my home or my property without consequences." I don't think Hollywood created the idea of Americans defending their homes and family, but simply took it a step or two further in film.

I really have no idea so shouldn't have said anything. I don't live there and so don't know.

But...somewhere along the line, gun use was romanticised and I would credit the shoot-em-up western movies and war movies for helping elevate the macho gun into something every 2 year old wanted for Christmas. Thank you, toy makers. And myth movie makers.

Back in the 50s or 60's : There were westerns and war movies but did you evern see Roy Rogers shoot anyone. He wore a gun. Movies today have to be "realistic". You see the blood and there is a mangled body lying there. Children are immune to this and they aren't shocked by it. It is an everyday occurrence.

By the way, I don't own a gun but I am thinking of getting one. I am not really safe out in the country and the sheriff a good 20 miles away. I understand that in this barbaric state of Texas that you better drag the body inside or else you will go to jail for murder. It would seem that Texas is the example for most that is wrong in this country. I find it very civilized and I am not a native of the state. However, no matter how civilized, there are murders committed everywhere in the USA and every other country.

The movie Westerns show a life that never existed. The novels of the Western genre did the same in writing. There are all sorts of books on the subject of real cowboys and the real wild West that point this out. They also state that most folks could not afford a gun. Homesteaders had to put out big bucks to get one hunting rifle.

Martex, no other country in the world has the murder rate we have. These figures exclude war and genocidal situations. You can find the figures on the net.

I do believe that some time ago there was a book in one of the book sections in here that was called, "Lies my Teacher Told Me." It contained many of these myths. As i recall, Robby took part in that discussion so he would know better than i do.

I am not disputing the fact that the old west was not as depicted in the movies. I am only stating that children see more violence in the movies of today. I believe that the murder rate in the USA (which I am not disputing the fact that we have more of) is due to children seeing so much of it in the media about murdering that it is a reason for the violence. I think more American children are subjected to movies and television and video games than children in other countries.

It is hard to say anything in this forum due to how people interpret things that others say.

Martex....I am of the same mind as you.... I understand exactly what you are saying and agree with you....I came from a rural area and most everyone I know had guns.....Usually rifles used for hunting, etc.... My dad had guns and taught us all at an early age about gun safty.....they were never left loaded BUT he all ways told us to assume they were and act as though they were......We were not allowed to touch them and did not.....Of course in those days we minded our dad..... I have a hand gun and intend to keep it.....

I am not a 'handgun person' but I could go along with having a "double barreled shot gun by my beside, loaded.." here on the rocky coast.....

My children never come over with out warning, and if they do, they have to ring a buzzer that would rouse the heaviest of sleepers....

And I could post warning outside on my door, "Warning.... VICIOUS ATTACK CAT, ----- No Trespassing "

And then I could put stickers on my door, "Member in good standing of the NRA", 1963 - Present"

And "Sharp shooter of the year", 1980-2001"...

or last, but not all, or least "Charlton Heston for President, 2004.....

Do I have to pass any kind of a psychological exam to get a "shotgun"?

MARTEX - I also agree with you about the violence in films and TV that American children watch on a daily basis. We have many friends from abroad, who especially do not allow (or even condone) their kids watching anywhere near as much TV as Americans kids do. Among our Muslim friends they are appalled at the violence that is portrayed in many of the TV shows and movies, asking often and in serious tones "how can ANYONE, ANY society allow their children to watch these things?" Many of these families include men who are retired military officers who at some point in their lives carried sidearms. When they returned to their homes, their children would never dream of touching their father's weapons. (This tells us alot about what we DON'T teach our children about the seriousness of weapons in the home.)

My home is an armed household; my safety is paramount (especially when I am alone); I have been professionally trained in weapons use; and I am comfortable in the knowledge that I can protect myself if need be. My son is a former police officer and he and his wife review safety methods periodically with their two children. Education (and respect for the weapon and what it can do) is the key.

The professor at Emory U. talked about a period when the colonies were just that - colonies. It was in the Crown's interest to make sure arms were not readily available to the colonists, many of whom were not entirely pleased with the King's treatment of them. The framers of the Constitution probably recognized the previous lack of available arms, and determined that if the people ever had to fight for their freedom again, they should not be hindered by a lack of weapons.

Robby, why don't you do some research for other articles that may even show an entirely different perspective on what happened 250 years ago as regards the availability of weapons to the average person? I, for one, don't believe something is true just because one person says it is. I remain a skeptic whenever I see something such as this until I have seen more facts to back it up.

Daphne, did you or anyone you know have to pass a psychological test to control a 3000 pound mechanical monster, which is prone to parts failures at dangerous speeds, which at times have led to the deaths of over 42,000 this past year?

Well, just recently the mentally retarded person who was suppose to be executed this week in Texas got a stay. Also, for a question farther back about doubting if Gov. Bush ever stayed an execution...Yes, he did. In fact, he dismissed the death penalty for Henry Lucas who confessed to hundreds of murders. It was some small technicality. Happily, the brutal murderer died in prison recently.

I don't believe in hunting unless you can't afford to buy meat. I also don't believe in the NRA or Charles Heston's stand on the NRA. But he does have good ideas about the problems with raising children today.

Dapphne: I have always admired your stand here in SN. In fact, I laughted at a photo you had added things to in regard to our president and I got unsubscribed. LOL. I would still laugh. But I don't see anything funny about making fun of some of us by stating things like attack cat, etc. If you lived in the country by yourself, you might have some fear, too.

Well, I loved the attack cat and Heston for President signs as protective agents....for the humor, something we always need more of when discussing sensitive issues.

Martex, we're learning as we go here....on how to hold completely opposite views, on posting our complete disagreements (sticking to content), on respecting the other's right to feel/think differently, and maybe just a pinch of letting something go by without responding (just for peace of mind).

It's a tricky business. My personal belief is that it is tone that is the most difficult to manage. Neutral tone gains the most listeners, causes the least conflict. Sometimes, without mentioning the person we disagree with, we still manage to convey by tone that any other position could only be held by an idiot.

At any rate, this respect for all positions takes practice, so we practice. We'll get better.

betty

I think I have respected everyone's opinion. I don't expect anyone to believe the way I do. But I don't believe the problems we are discussing call for humor.

How do you feel about Patrick McVeigh being put to death next month?

What can I say....

My "sense of humor" and my ability to "forgive", I hope, will last a lifetime.....

8>)
dapph

I do not believe in State/Government Executions.....

I would like to see Patrick McVeigh spend the rest of his sorry life in solitary confinement..

And hope that he lives to be as old as most of us have.....

dapph

Martex....

I live in a city, here on the rocky coast of Maine.... and my companion IS my cat "attack cat" , brandy...
said in jest, because I a have a few scares from her very sharp claws and a couch being shredded as we speak......

Non the less, we are best of friends, she is the first thing I grab when our home is in peril ..

dapph

"CONCORD, N.H.-- A second attempt in two years to strike down New Hampshire's death penalty failed again yesterday. The House voted 188-180 against a proposal to abolish capital punishment. The decision was followed by a 212-155 vote to prevent the bill from returning during this legislative session. If the law were repealed, those who might have faced the death penalty instead would have faced life in prison without parole."

Now, if the states that don't have the death penalty would only place the murderer in solitary confinement for the rest of their life, with no tv or other amenities, (maybe a book or two, and a photo of their victim to look at) then I would concur with them. But regardless of what people think, prison today is not really punishment, what with three meals a day, cable tv, access to the internet, free educational opportunities, etc.

Wpould someone tell me how they arrive at a "million dollar" cost of appeals, etc. for someone prior to execution? They say it costs $40,000 a year to keep a prisoner. I could hire a good lawyer for that amount. So why the $1,000,000 figure?

I can't believe that so many of you needs guns to be safe. This is about the scariest forum i have ever been in. Unbelievable!

I'm with you, Idris. I'd rather be shot than shoot a human being. It seems so against nature to my sensibilities to shoot people.

I grew up in a house that had a shotgun in the front hall umbrella stand, and the boxes of shot in the top drawer of the commode right next to the front door. We also kept many household keys in that top drawer, including my skate key; so I was in and out of there a lot. Never touched the gun OR the shot! Never occurred to me. They were not my possessions.

Even the women in my family hunted. Deer in season. We all love venison. With current jelly; um, um, yum!

I inherited my great grandfather's Winchester rifle. Gave it to one of my sons-in-law, who craved it.

An Army brat, I am used to guns. Most of us do not need them. We do not need a violent society.

That said, I do respect the fact that others feel differently about these things.

I not making a judgment on those who believe they need a gun, i just can't fathom it. The only time i have ever seen a gun was in a policeman's holster. I just don't understand.

How many people have received that death penilty in NH, in the past few years????

The last time I knew, the death penilty in NH was death by hanging!!!!!!!!!!!

In the 60's I wrote an article which was published in an Indianapolis newspaper. In it I said I would never own a gun. I could write an article today for a Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill, North Carolina newspaper in which I said I would never own a gun.

Why own a gun? I don't need to hunt for my food. The supermarket contains more meat than I'd ever eat in a lifetime. I am not a member of the military. I can find no logical reason for owning a gun, including protecting myself and my property.

Mal

The only way one of my brothers (my favorite and closest in age) and I can talk politics is with humor...healthy humor, cutting humor, dirty humor. Don't remember when we discovered this, but before using humor, we couldn't talk politics at all...we'd end up with hurt feelings and feeling unheard.

Humor has even allowed us to claim some common ground. My brother's usual way to let me know he's about to complain about something in his own (Republican) party is when he begins, "I may have to vote for the idiot next time." Then I get to say something like, "I thought you did last time, " or "That won't be a change."

Sometimes he will know ahead of time that I won't have approved of something in my party (Democratic), so he'll say, "Senator______ was pretty impressive, wasn't he?" Then, I'll say, "Impressing Republicans is easy."

And on and on. A few times, with the respect that has grown with the humor, we've actually had some thoughtful discussions on the issues and you really couldn't tell which party we supported.

Maybe because of this experience with my brother, but I think for other reasons, too, I believe humor is related to respect.....and something about maturity, too, about not taking oneself so seriously.

Applause, Doctor Sweetie!

Don't call me sweetie.

That represents the laugh I got out of your using those very words! Wasn't it a nurse in an emergency room that called you Sweetie, and you said you might not have minded if she had said "Doctor Sweetie"?

Okay, I'll quit! Just Betty better?

Well I would NOT rather be shot than shoot another another human being...... In the real world in "fly over land" there are unfortunatly people who have no respect for other people, their belongings, their personal safety, etc......... I know this will come as shock to some of you folks but it wouldn't bother me a nano second to shoot come low life who was threatning me or any of my loved ones......

I've read all I can take. Some of you sound like a bunch of Brendas and Kobinas. You definately do not live in the real world. So you'd rather be shot than shoot another human being. Ya, sure. For heavens sake open your eyes. So you are sitting on your couch, you have a gun in your hand and a vile, nasty of nasties, kicks open you front door, he's just blown away your husband on the front pourch and he's swearing at the top of his lungs that he's goint to blow the head off of your 10-year old daughter sitting next to you. He then yells that he's going to splatter your brains all over the ceiling. Ya, sure, you'll say.."Go ahead and shoot us, I've been lying to her all my life that I was always there to protect her. God doesn't want me to protect my child." Like heck you would, ypou'd blow him out the door he came in. AND, if you wouldn't, then you really were lying to your kid.

Oh, now I'm the nasty guy. No, I'm a realist, living in a real world of violence, filled with viscious men and women who do not value life. And, I'm am a born again Christian who does values life, I love mankind, and hold all life to be precious. And furthermore, as a police officer I had to make that kind of decision, and because of it, people are alive today because of it. What makes me tick? I was a chaplin in the state prison system for 11 1/2-yrs, and if anyone would attempt to hurt my Vivian, then one year from that day they would be a one year old ghost.

As the murder rate continues to go down, as it has over many years, our fear continues to grow. Go figure.

-----------------------------------------

...and you've made me smile each time, MaryPage, because of what was behind it. Those 2 words, one I fought for, one I fought/fight against don't fit together, though, sort of like president and...oh, nevermind. I loved the thought, though, still do. I will never, ever divulge my one nicname from high school.

-------------------------------------------

Why the upset, Lee? Most posters, to my ears, do have guns and would shoot. Add ten points for me, Robby, I've finally been able to stick to stats and not enter the fray on a subject. A choice, always. Feels terrific.

I think that since you have lived, eaten and breathed in places where violance is the norm, then you must find it difficult to believe that most of us don't share your attitude, Blue....

"Big city living" is a far cry from "small city and country living"..

I lived in Portland, Maine for only a couple of years, and it is the first time that I have felt the need to "lock my door" at all times... Not because I have junkies strolling the halls outside my door (I don't), but because I feel it is the right thing to do...

Portland is a small city that fortunately has low crime rate, so the need to use 'deadly force' is rare..

That does not mean that I would not protect my self or my family, using deadly force, if necessary...It means that I am not sitting on a couch, fearing for my life, with a loaded shotgun waiting for my neighbors to break it down...

dapph

I don't have a gun. I live in the country. I am not sitting on the couch with a gun living in fear. However, a few years ago a college professor (lady) down the road was murdered and the killer was never found. I think there is too much generalization in this discussion. Also, where is the evidence for all the statistics? The country is just as dangerous as the city...people are people. Some of you all may be just a little too secure in your ideal of Utopia.

I've been following this discussion with interest, and thought you might be interested in this article written by my niece, Jessica, for New York magazine recently. She was brought up "gunless", but after repeated break-ins living in NYC, she decided that being "armed" against the intruders was the only way to survive. Of course the restrictions about keeping a gun in the big city are such, that by the time she would unlock it, load it, etc...it would be of no use against the intruder anyway...
Love Affair with a Gun

I do not live in fear and most certainly am not sitting around on the couch "waiting" for "trouble" with my six gun shooter at the ready....I have moved to Florida and busy, busy, busy everyday.....I go where I want and when I want too......I know areas I stay away from which shows prudence on my part.... I read the local paper daily and there is MUCH more crime here in this central rural part of Florida than in Missouri where I moved from...... I read of a home invasion not far from here in Gainsville.....there is a very big problem here with illegal drugs.... there are very good things going on here trying to combat all these problems but nevertheless it pays to be prepared.......my view.......my opinion.....

Thank you, Joan. That was a very good read.

I'm just in on this last page, but as for guns, I wouldn't travel without one in the car/motorhome. One night I was driving home from Colorado alone (to KS), was the middle of the night and no one else in sight. Had planned to stay in Denver but the Holidome had double booked rooms, then pulled into a parking lot of name motel in Pueblo and watched as an old pickup with no lights pulled in and cruised the parking lot. I pulled out as soon as they got around the corner and I got myself outta there. When I got near the state lines a big new pickup came flying up behind me (my little Honda Accord was doing about 75mph) and the three "boys" pulled along side and started easing me off the highway. I speeded up, they came around again, I slowed down and they got in front. This cat and mouse went on a few more times and they got serious about pushing me off when an 18 wheeler pulled up behind and saw what was going on and pushed them on out of the way since he was bigger. I followed him all the way into the next little town, stopped at an all night gas station for coffee and at 8:00 next morn was in my own driveway in central KS. I love to go camping and take photos but know I don't have a chance to outrun a bear or someone interested in grabbing camera equipment to hock. After talking to a highway patrolman to see if it was possible to get a permit to carry, at his suggestion I just put a small gun in my camera bag that will make noise if it's a bear, or show the human intruder that I do have some means of defence. Trouble was, the bag was too far away for me to reach in the car, but I really do think the kids were probably just drinking and didn't realize how dangerous the game was they were playing. I have never had to shoot the gun, but do think it might have impressed on them had I been able to show it, and they would have left me alone. Maybe not, I'll never know. But I refuse to spend my life being scared so try to be prepared as possible. I carry pepper spray that has a dye in it. When in bear country I have one in each pocket and hope that if they got that close a second one in the eyes/nose/mouth might do the trick. Does this make me a nutcase? Maybe, just don't surprise me in the dark~

Speaking of the death penilty, Lou....

All you ever wanted to know about the death penilty in the US

NH is the only New England State that has the death penilty....

And it has never been used!

I guess that you are right, Martex, life New England is close to being in Utopia. (We try to keep it a secret, though)

8>)

I think you just think New England is a Utopia. Do you have police there? Do you have prisons there? If so, I don't think it is Utopia.

Sure we do.... Here on the rocky coast of Maine, we have all the basics, police, fire, ambulances, schools, universities, prisons, homeless, drug addicts, etc..

In fact I have a police scanner on low most of the day. I like to know what is going on in the city below my 'window to the world'..

"close to being in Utopia" is good enough for me!

8>)

Hi nutcase Tisie....pleased to know you.....methinks some folks are unable to venture far from their homes for whatever reason and maybe are a little to idealistic.....whatever....differences are what make the world go round....I will continue to be as safety concious as I can be ...... I like knowing that I have a gun and that I know how to use it.........if the need should ever arise.......

I lived in Bradenton, Florida at the begining of the ninetys (seven years), and I bought a gun, you betcha....

But I sold it when I realized that I had two teenagers that I needed to keep the gun away from.... Wasn't worth the risk...

I finally moved back to the rocky coast of Maine, because of the high crime in the schools and streets down there. Best move I ever made, for their sake, and for mine...

You all seem to think that I am naive!!

Haha!

We are all living in different realities folks, that is why we tend to differ in our opinions, our politics, and our lifestyles......

How should we interpret this statement you made,

But I sold it when I realized that I had two teenagers that I needed to keep the gun away from.... Wasn't worth the risk...

Will you explain this please? Sounds like they were ready to go out and join a gang.

Oops, (can't maintain silence very long, can I) I have to say something about Joan's neice's article. Such a well written article, isn't it, Joan. There isn't any wiggle room at all for objections...to her choice, her reasoning spelled out.

But I had a clenched feeling in the pit of my stomach by the time I was finished reading it. I guess I get antsy thinking that there is a "sport" using something that is designed to kill. Firing ranges or hunting...those sports.

Everyone in my Texas family hunted and hunting rifles were the only guns owned. As a child, I never questioned the sport of hunting and guns were never a topic in my small city (not rural) family. I never saw those guns, can't even say where they were kept.

As an adult, as someone who thinks on the numbers of gun-related deaths compared to other countries, it seems so clear to me that the proliferation of handguns is related to the insane number of gun-related deaths each year. About hunting, even though I don't personally understand this sport, it also seems clear that those who hunt have nothing to do with gun-related deaths, except for the small number of hunting accidents, which is not at issue, as far as I know.

My utopian wish is that those who hunt could own and use their registered rifles, that handguns could not leave firing range premises, and that all other guns (outside law enforcement and the military) be collected and dumped into the middle of the ocean.

----------------------------------------------

Before moving back to Texas a year ago December, I lived on the northern Oregon coast for five years. It was a very small town and we generally did not lock our doors. Some afternoons, I slept on a long couch across from an open living room door with an unlocked screen door keeping out wandering animals, etc. Until a doctor shot himself and his 2 daughters the 3rd year I was there, there had not been a killing of any kind for 60 years.

What I suspect is that I accepted the press on both ends....I think I felt at too much risk in the large city and too safe in the coastal town.

The reported safety of that small town took forever to adjust to. I had lived in the Berkeley-San Francisco area and Dallas and other places where one had to think defensively---or you thought you did if you watched the 6 o'clock news, that is, which always showed the bloody details. Once I did let the security and serenity of that coastal town sink in, though, it was so wonderful. I had such a sense of freedom. I actually reached the point of hearing the normal creaking sounds of an old house through the night without thinking there were intruders.

If they my kids wanted to join gangs, there was enough around to join..

They didn't...

I decided that there was more danger having a gun in the house then not...

That simple, and I never regretted getting rid of it...
Oregon sounds a lot like New England..

dapph

It is now Saturday afternoon and I have been out of town since early Thursday morning at a meeting of the Virginia Psychological Association in Roanoke. I came back to find 44 postings and am always glad (and I mean this!) to see that I am indispensable -- that the forum doesn't die just because I am not here. And I am also pleased to see that, with just one exception, everyone stuck to the issues and did not attack personalities. Yes, there were deep disagreements but, as I have said many times previously, it is perfectly permissible to disagree so long as we "disagree in an agreeable way." If everyone thought like everyone else, there would be no discussion. We would just sit silently before our screen and concentrate on our navels.

I will be back shortly but wanted at the moment to express my strong pleasure to see that our lively group here is observing America (the theme of this forum) and sharing what kind of observations we see through our own eyes.

Tisie, good to have you join us!! We are looking forward to your continued participation.

Robby

Tisie.......

You live in the same world I live in. Something like the Boy or girl scouts......"Be prepared."

Ladies......

The couch is your mental preparedness, the gun in your hand is your mental preparedness. The real world of crime can be found in your local newspapers, TV News, and TV programs relating to Cops, and criminal history. NO, I do not live in a world of negativity, I have an understanding of crime and man's decadence. BTW, crime occures in small cities and towns, in the mountains, forrests, and beaches. Not long ago in my community of 99, a hunter pushed another hunter over a 400 foot cliff. Yes, serial murderers even kill in Canada

Daphne, unless they have changed the law in the last 6 months, Massachusetts did have the death penalty, and is still in New England. I don't recall the last time it was used, though.

As for dumping all those guns in the ocean, does anyone really expect criminals to give up their illegal weapons? I emphasize illegal, because the percentage of legal weapons used in crimes is infinestial. As for the problem of selling guns, here is a piece I found thatr dates back during the time of King Phillip's war, in the mid/late 1600s.

That notwithstanding the ancient law of the country, made in the year 1633, that no person should sell any armes or ammunition to any Indian upon penalty of £10 for every gun, £5 for a pound of powder, and 40s. for a pound of shot, yet the government of the Massachusets in the year 1657, upon designe to monopolize the whole Indian trade did publish and declare that the trade of furrs and peltry with the Indians in their jurisdiction did solely and properly belong to their commonwealth and not to every indifferent person, and did enact that no person should trade with the Indians for any sort of peltry, except such as were authorized by that court, under the penalty of £100 for every offence, giving liberty to all such as should have licence from them to sell, unto any Indian, guns, swords, powder and shot, paying to the treasurer 3d. for each gun and for each dozen of swords; 6d. for a pound of powder and for every ten pounds of shot, by which means the Indians have been abundantly furnished with great store of armes and ammunition to the utter ruin and undoing of many families in the neighbouring colonies to enrich some few of their relations and church members.

It seems that illegal guns were a problem back then, also.

Well, I was kind of sweating my big mouth speech. Nice of ya'all to be kind to the new kid (even if she is a little nuts). I also grew up with a father, uncles, brothers that hunted. My father was an old Frenchman that thought you must eat everything you brought home, and my mother explained to him early in their marriage, that the hunter also cleaned his own game including fish. They never had an argument about that!

My brothers taught me to shoot a gun and fish by the time I could walk because they already had one sister that turned her nose up at all their antics and tattled on them if they gave her a dirty look. I don't hunt with a gun, only a camera, and felt sorry when I caught a record catfish and knew it was hurting with that hook in it's mouth. Much as I enjoy eating fish, I would have a hard time cutting the head off one to eat if it wasn't already dead.

On the other side of this story, I would probably have to be like the criminals and hide my guns before giving them up. This is my biggest regret about driving to Alaska, not being able to take a handgun for noise and protection. I know you can take along a shotgun but that is a big item to stick in your pocket if you want to hike out into the wilderness.

Robby, nice bunch of folks you have visiting here. Happy to meet you!

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	"No better study of a nation's institutions and culture than de Tocqueville's Democracy in America has ever been written by a foreign observer; none perhaps so good." (New York Times)