Democracy in America ~ Alexis de Tocqueville: Part Export

What is America? What is an American? What is democracy?

This discussion is now closed. Please share your thoughts with us in a new discussion of Democracy.

"No better study of a nation's institutions and culture than de Tocqueville's Democracy in America has ever been written by a foreign observer; none perhaps so good." (New York Times)

DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA
by Alexis de Tocqueville
"I have sought to discover the evils and the advantages which democracy brings."
"In America, I saw more than America. I sought there the image of democracy itself, with its inclinations, its character, its prejudices, and its passions, in order to learn what we have to fear or to hope from its progress."
"My aim has been to show, by the example of America, that laws, and especially manners, may allow a democratic people to remain free."

Page numbers refer to Heffner's 1956 paperback edition

de Tocqueville on the topic of Older Citizens and Democracy:

"When I survey this countless multitude of beings, shaped in each other's likeness, amidst whom nothing rises and nothing falls, the sight of such universal uniformity saddens and chills me."

"The world which is rising into existence is still half encumbered by the remains of the world which is waning into decay."

"None can say how much of ancient institutions and former manners will remain."

"Human existence becomes longer and property more secure. Life is not adorned with brilliant trophies but it is extremely easy and tranquil."

In this Discussion Group we are not examining deTocqueville. We are examining America but in the process constantly referring to deTocqueville's appraisals. Although written 170 years ago, his astute statements are as relevant to democracy now as they were then.
If you think primarily in terms of Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, etc. there are many political forums in Senior Net where you can share those thoughts. Our spectrum and deTocqueville's was much broader. He spoke not only about politics but about art, poetry, the media, religion, men, women, orators, equality, liberty, associations, the law, physical well being, the family, wages, manners, business, science and many many other aspects of democracy.
Were you born in the U.S.? Are you a naturalized American citizen? Are you a foreign born visitor wanting to know more about us? Are you a citizen of another nation who also lives under democratic principles?
Then this is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what deTocqueville and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader: Robby Iadeluca

LINKS TO PAST DISCUSSIONS

---Democracy in America~by Alexis de Tocqueville Part VI~

---Democracy in America~by Alexis de Tocqueville Part V~
---Democracy in America~by Alexis de Tocqueville Part IV~
---Democracy in America~by Alexis de Tocqueville Part III~
---Democracy in America~by Alexis de Tocqueville Part II~
---Democracy in America~by Alexis de Tocqueville Part I~

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Congratulations, Robby, on passing the one year mark with Democracy in America!!

Happy First Birthday!

TODAY IS OUR ANNIVERSARY!! We began this forum on July 29th in the Year 2000 and for ONE FULL YEAR we have been gazing out across America and comparing what we see with what Alexis deTocqueville saw 170 years ago. We have been observing and commenting on just about every facet of life in this vibrant Democracy and in other Democracies. We have been talking about America's origin, politics, education, jobs, art, poetry, the media, religion, men, women, liberty, equality, civic associations, the law, justice, physical well being, the family, wages, manners, commerce, science, youth, holiday traditions, crime, and various other aspects of what makes up a nation.

Perhaps after this most wonderful year the time has come to draw this discussion group to a close and may I suggest that we do so by reversing our usual procedure -- by turning our gaze inward. Let us look at ourselves -- the Senior Citizens, the Seniors, the people of a "certain age," the elderly, the older adults, the grandparents, the "sandwich" generation, the "greatest" generation, the citizens of the 20th Century. We are in a unique position. We, the older generation, can look back and see the past century in a way that the younger generation cannot. Our opinions matter. Our wisdom has been derived from decades of experience. What to some others is history, to us are memories. One definition of a "mistake" is a "learning experience." Let us talk about our "successes" and our "failures." Let us share what we have learned. If we do not share what we have learned, what was the purpose of our even having been here?

We have seen and heard much. In our brain cells are the memories of people and events which elsewhere exist only in history books and sometimes not even there. We have experienced public events such as elections, assasinations, and wars and we have experienced personal events such as giving birth, raising children, and supporting those families. And all those events were in the context of a century which was so radically different from the 21st century that our progeny probably cannot understand it.

In effect, we are a bridge. What is our message? What do we have to say to those who will some day be our age? Let this final sub-topic be "Our Message." In the best way that we can, let us help younger folks see our nation and our world through our eyes. From time to time something may happen "out there" -- across America or around the world -- which affects the older generation and we will, of course, allude to that. We will also continue to keep our good friend, deTocqueville, in our thoughts. Having him close to us throughout this period of time has shown, on the one hand, that his remarks were at times a bit askew as he had no way of realizing how this nation would change. On the other hand, his remarks ofttimes helped us to see how, in may ways, we are exactly the same.

As usual, some of deTocqueville's remarks relevant to this sub-topic will be posted above. Let us continue to compare what he saw and said with what we are seeing in our day. In this, our final sub-topic of Democracy in America, we have an opportunity which may not be presented to us again. As we gradually close out this forum, let us not scroll down so quickly in order to post our remarks. Let us linger in the Heading. Let us watch the flag flying and allow our feelings to be formed into words. Let us look at those three questions which make up the Heading and try to answer them to the best of our ability.

What are your thoughts?

Robby

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Congratulations to you, Robby, and to all of us who have participated in this unusual and stimulating discussion.

The 20th century was an amazing and almost unbelievable one. We went from horse drawn carriages to rockets to the moon. Incurable illnesses like poliomyelitis were eradicated. Hearts, livers and kidneys were transplanted successfully. Two World Wars were fought, along with others like the Korean conflict and Vietnam. Where only a few people were able to move on to universities and colleges, now every child that is born in the United States has the opportunity for a higher education through scholarships and other assistance. We also have seen skyscrapers and huge highways take the place of pristine forests, streams and rivers to the detriment of the Earth's environment. We have seen presidents assassinated and have grieved with their families. The world has become very small because of communications technological advances. Who ever would have thought when we were born that now we would be communicating instantly with people thousands and thousand of miles away?

Some of us have seen nearly all of these things in our lifetimes from our own points-of-view. We are a wealth of firsthand information for younger generations, who are interested and listen to what we tell them if we only would take the time to do so. My own children and grandchildren have learned from me and what I've seen and remember, and I make it a point to talk to them and their friends and share my memories and experiences of the past almost 75 years while they tell me what life is like for them now. What an incredible lifetime we've all had, and what treasures we have to share.

Mal

Thank you for these remarks, Marilyn. You tell us that "we are a wealth of firsthand information for younger generations, who are interested and listen to what we tell them if we only would take the time to do so."

It is my fervent hope that this is exactly what we will do in this final sub-topic.

Robby

Kiwi lady--

With reference to your post about globaliztion and the article you read--

Many years ago I had a friend who taught me a very valuable lesson. Her reaction to an article such as the one you mentioned, would always be:

"What's in it for him?"

Although that attitude has tended to make me pretty much a cynic, I do find that it's been worthwhile to use it as a personal litmus test when I read the newspaper, listen to TV news, etc.

Wasn't it a saying in the 60s, "Question everything"?

Robby - you ask if the world wants what we have. One of your questions.

What do we have? We have a few established families who will never want for anything else as long as they and their offspring is living. The Busch's are one of those families. The Rockefellers were - I haven't heard much lately about anybody. There are other names. They made their fortunes while the country was young and they have expanded on it.

The rest of other wealthy families are newcommers. They may or not may get to keep it a little bit longer.

As I see it - the rest of us have a house of cards. Any wind can blow it over. One little wind is informing us today, that computer sales have plummeted worldwide. For some people it may be worriesome. Investors may sleep less soundly. That's just a small one.

Water - when populations were small, there was plenty of water. When polulations grew, there was the need of harbors. When polulations got so big that industries needed more outlets, natural flow of waters were diverted to create better commerce. Not to forget, that deserts became cities, as mentioned before, and woods were plundered without regards to new growth, to animal populations etc. And MAN is still not stopping.

I am not painting a gloomy picture. And Robby, your last statement, that we can teach the young.....do you really believe that? I don't.

My 26 year old granddaughter has told me she's learned more from
me than anybody she's ever known. I've never tried to teach her.
All we've done is talk, and we talk about everything, past and present.

Mal

This learning process is a two way street. My kids, the 26 year old granddaughter I mentioned and my 16 year old grandson are far more aware of what's going on in the environment than I was at that age, and I have learned from them. My granddaughter is also very health conscious. If I ate the food she does and paid as much attention to exercise as she and my grandson do, I'd live to be twice as old as I am now.

I've learned not to preach or pontificate when I talk with people a lot younger than I am. Nor do I try to "correct" them or say things were better when I was their age. If my granddaughter and her friends, for example, have made mistakes similar to mistakes I made, we discuss the means we used to avoid making them again.

Younger people interest me a great deal, and I find they're very interested in people of my generation. We talk, that's all, just talk and share what we know and have learned. In many instances we are not on the same level, but by the same token, in many instances we are.

There's not one with whom I've spoken who is not curious about World War II. All of them have strong stands against war. This leads to a discussion about how to prevent war.

So it goes with everything we discuss. The point I'm making here, I guess, is that one must create the opportunity to make these inter-generational discussions possible.

Mal

The aging of America is a success story by almost any measure. At the start of the 20th Century, the average American, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, would have been fortunate to reach age 50. Today, thanks in part to advances in health care and better living conditions, Americans can be expected to live well into their 80's.

Currently, 12 percent of the U.S. population, some 34 million people, are over the age of 65. But those numbers will soar in this century, demographers say. More than 80 percent of all Americans will live past 65.

Pehaps the most sobering statistic of all -- According to a study by the Consumer Federation of America and Primerica, a member of Citicorp, one-half of all American households have accumulatd less than $1,000 in net financial assets.

Are the elderly of this nation ready for old age?

Robby

What's the alternative?

Nothing he is a very rich man. He is a real patriot wanting to protect what is ours. About questioning. He is the only one of our big industrialists who has questioned the road we have taken here. He is very unpopular with the ruling Round Table our aristocrats of industry here, who have very big clout with Government Policy. He is a lone voice from big industry.

Carolyn

Its too big a topic for me to comment on fully here but the last part of the century to me was a sad time. I am an idealist and I mourn the loss of the importance of the nuclear family. I am sickened by the violence of todays society. I can remember the time when it was unnecessary to lock the door when leaving home. I remember the time when murders were an absolute rarity in NZ society. Where we were lucky to have one a year. Now we have several a week. This is way above what we would expect just from the rise in population alone. I want to change the world! I am only one little voice but I do what I can in the practical sense. I do know however that I have reared four caring human beings who work hard, pay their taxes and are very good parents. Some of my lifelong idealism must have rubbed off!

Carolyn

Carolyn:--

Based upon your remembrances and experiences as you state them in your posting, what wisdom can you pass on to the generations after us? You have stated the problems. What are the solutions?

Robby

Although only one in twenty-five Americans was over the age of 65 at the turn of the 20th Century, one in eight are at least that old today. In a few years, "Baby Boomers" will begin to join the ranks of the elderly, and one in five Americans will be elderly by the time the last boomers turn 65 in the year 2030.

Since 1960, the country's population has increased by about 45%. The number of over-65 Americans doubled in the same period. But the over-85 crowd has almost quadrupled in the same period. And those trends will continue. By 2050, the number of over-85 americans will increase by over 500%, and the ratio of over-85s to over-65s will triple.

A lot of statistics here which simply means that a "lot of people are getting old." Do we have anything to say about that to the "younger" folks? Do we care? Is it none of our business?

Robby

We do care or should. I have discussed this with my three children, ages 48, 44 and 41 several times. Fortunately for them, but not for me, they have the example of their mother, who provided for them rather than her own future.

Two of my children have good jobs which allow them to save for their old age. The oldest, who is ill with Hepatitis C and has other physical problems, is on disability and will require help from some agency or other, though he no doubt will receive a good inheritance from his rich father if he lives that long.

It is my sincere belief that the greatest influence we as seniors can have is on our own children, our grandchilden and their friends. If each one talks to our own, we can assert some influence in a good, positive way.

I was thinking earlier how lucky I am. I "hang out" here in NC with younger people; have only one acquaintance my age, and the only older people I know and to whom I relate are in SeniorNet. Some of these people I have met. I say I am fortunate because I hear a great deal about life as people much younger than I am view it, and their views are often quite different from those of much older people.

Mal

Mal says:--"I "hang out" here with younger people; have only one acquaintance my age, and the only older people I know and to whom I relate are in SeniorNet. I am fortunate because I hear a great deal about life as people much younger than I am view it, and their views are often quite different from much older people."

Is that the experience of the rest of you? Are most of your acquaintances in your age group -- or not?

Robby

I have learned to question everything about my government. Inthe previous thread, now archived, Lee mentioned the military. I have great respect for any person, man or woman, who served in the military when we were threatened by an attack from the Japanese and entered into a world war. I regret, though, that those same types young people, were conscrip-ted to Viet Nam--since I have read many a history about the way that war was handled--and it is not pretty as far as Nixon goes. I did not like the Gulf War--although it is not the fault of the young ones who served, and they should not be villified. My point is that excessive nationalism should be avoided. There is much to read in history about the dictators who relied upon excessive nationalsim--and, I may add, the military, who they controlled. Remeber the military has been used many times to overthrow a sitting government.

So I think that, number one, an extended education is necessary to really get a grasp on history and the evils of certain governments, because what we learn in primary and secondary school is superficial and mythologized. My country, right or wrong, is not the way I think is a healthy approach. Of all the positive aspects that can be mentioned here about this country, there are also many negative than are seldom mentioned--I don't think sticking one'shead in the sand and going off on an emotional tear about how wonderful we are is realistic. We are not that perfect and there are a few countries that are even superior. The thing to do is to be aware of the faults, as well as the good points. That , to me, is more patriotic than excessive nationalism--then work toward making a change, and work toward making it better.

I am not afraid to say my country is sometimes a disappointment--I will teach any young ones I know to question government and to become involved--so as not to slip into the many pitfalls such as fascism, a dictatorship or as I believe, today, excessive corporate control over the government which erodes democracy. I believe I am a true patriot--we are not perfect and there is no sense putting a spin on it.

my two cents

Kiwi--

You say he is very rich, and an industrialist. Don't you suppose he has a stake in some aspect of globalization? What industry? How is it affected by globalization? Just curious.

Jenny's wisdom that she is passing on to the next generation includes the fact that "an extended education is necessary to really get a grasp on history and the evils of certain governments, because what we learn in primary and secondary school is superficial and mythologized."

She adds "question government and become involved."

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Jenny--

I only had one year of college, but it was enough to show me that most of what I had learned in high school as an absolute fact, was really just an approximation, if that.

I had an excellent --if unusual--political science professor. In the spring of 1945, she took me to a nearby conscientous objector camp where I had a chance to meet and observe Norman Thomas (leader of the Socialist party). On the way home I was saying how impressed I was that he seemed just like anyone else, rumpled suit, etc. She told me that he went to a considerable effort to give just that effect. It was she who explained to us about propoganda. I am forever grateful that I had that year of her tuition. I've built on it ever since.

Jean adds that "most of what I had learned in high school as an absolute fact, was really just an approximation, if that."

Robby

As we look back at the 20th Century, what women stand out? There are many of them, of course, so with your permission I will divide them into five groups --

1 - Political Leaders and International Heads of State,
2 - Heroes and Explorers,
3 - Activists and Visionaries,
4 - Philosophers, Theorists and Scientists and
5 - Authors, Artists, and Musicians.

Can we do one group at a time? I'll start off with Group One. How about Madeleine Albright, Hillary Rodham Clinton, and Patsy Mink?

Robby

I'd like to suggest that people read the Congressional Record online in order to be better informed about what's going on.
Click the link below to access it.

The Congressional Record.

2. Annie Scott Peck, Amelia Earhart, women astronauts
3. Simone de Beauvoir, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem
4. Madame Curie and others I'll mention later
5. Judith Raskin, opera singer (She and I had the same
voice teacher and went to college together)
Ella Fitzgerald, a musical innovator,
Marian MacPartland, piano player,
Joan Mitchell, artist, Georgia O'Keeffe,
and many, many more.

Mal

Here we go. Women of the 20th Century in all the categories
Robby suggested. Please click the link below to access the site.

Women of the 20th Century

Mal – Your post No. 2. What you said resumes much of what I think about the past century that shaped our world and the words you used were such that I would have been unable to express them better myself. Bravo my friend.

When I draw on the past for advice to future generations I have to look at the length of the road I travelled and it was overwhelming. When I was young, I thought if only I had a nicer house, more clothes, more fun, less worry, life would be so much better, not thinking that it was exactly those things that molded me into the person I am today. If I had had all the things that I thought were essential at the time, then I would not have the determination I have to meet challenges. I would not have learnt and stored most important knowledge. What I received was priceless. The miserable childhood, the frustration of not being able to fulfill all my ambitions, the illnesses that stopped lofty goals, the passions of youth that were both necessary and fleeting, the joys of bursting with youth and vigor, the overwhelming pleasure of motherhood and family life, the appreciation of art, the happiness of transferring my values to my offsprings, the death of dear ones.

I can say all this today because now I am old enough to choose what I consider essential for the rest of my live. Enough is there to give me serenity and let the world find its own niche. the young generation will surely make tremendous mistakes but advice is there for the taking. All they need to do is ask.

What I say to young people is to find those essentials of life because the rest is superfluous. Not to attach importance to material things because you can't take it with you after you're dead. To be transparent meaning having no hidden agenda and at the same time, to understand that human beings all have faults and make mistakes. To care for others sincerely and to forgive. To help them when they are in need. To see, not just look, at the beauties of the world. To accept that life on earth is spent in a flash and to live with eternity in sight. Accept that growing old is not a disease but a strength to draw upon in a crises.

I have learnt so much from this discussion Robby and I can only thank you and all the others in this forum for the knowledge you have transmitted to me during this year. I understand more about democracy now, but especially what makes an American American.

Now I am ready for a change as it has been a constant in my life.

It has been a long time since I visited this site and you have covered a lot of territory. I dont feel confident in making comments until I can get a feel of what has transpired in past discussions and where the discussion is going now. I will keep reading past comments and read carefully the current ones.

Looking forward to reading your posts and hopefully can add some worthy ones of my own.......anna in VA

Robbie I think basically our younger people have lost their faith in God. I think having faith in God and having biblical moral codes did make our country a safer place. "Love thy Brother" It is proven that violent video games and violent movies are desensitising young people. I personally do not watch violence for violences sake.

There is a lot more I could say but due to the intolerant attitude of a lot of people towards Christianity I would be wasting my breath. What did I teach my children- The 10 commandments. If they did anything wrong they had to own responsibility for their actions. For instance my daughter shop lifted a chocolate bar. I took her to the Manager of the shop. She was shaking and in tears. I made her apologise and pay for the chocolate bar. She never forgot it and told me the other day she has never taken so much as a pen from work. The Manager thanked me and said he wished more parents would do the same and believed if nipped in the bud it saved heartache further on. When Vanessa applied for a job there after school she got the job. Nothing was held against her.

I also told my children if they fell foul of the law I would not protect them. I would support them but they would take their punishment. I have seen too many parents even lie to protect their kids or rather their own faces. This has produced irresponsible adults and these kids have nothing, some of them coming from wealthy families and are well behind my kids in careers and monetary security.

My kids were brought up in a working class home. They got loved and supported in their school efforts but had to work for luxuries etc. This gave them very good work ethics and has stood them in good stead all their lives. If they want something they go for it!

What do I say to the particularly to the parents of the day. The worst thing you can do for your kids is to give them anything they want, when they want it!

If we all gave our kids boundaries and forbade them unsuitable friends it would make a big difference. Its much easier to say yes than to put up with the teenage tantrums and say no. I say take the hard road. Its the kids of today who can make a difference for our future. Carolyn

Excellent thoughts, Carolyn, and they remind me of my mother's abundant love but firm boundaries. She would say, though, that her secret key was to make sure we were involved in school and church activities and groups. So, our friends automatically grew out of band, choir, French club, church summer camp, etc.

Your first paragraph looks fine to me.

Eloise tells us:--"What I received was priceless. The miserable childhood, the frustration of not being able to fulfill all my ambitions, the illnesses that stopped lofty goals, the passions of youth that were both necessary and fleeting, the joys of bursting with youth and vigor, the overwhelming pleasure of motherhood and family life, the appreciation of art, the happiness of transferring my values to my offsprings, the death of dear ones."

In our message to the coming generations, is it possible for them to understand that misery, frustration, and illness are priceless?

Carolyn calls to our attention that "if we all gave our kids boundaries and forbade them unsuitable friends it would make a big difference. I say take the hard road.

Again, my question. How can we help coming generations to understand this? Are these words (if they are listening) just rolling off their shoulders?

Robby

There are misery, frustration and illness in every single generation and have been for centuries. The types of misery, frustration and illness may change, but they do exist and will exist as long as there are human beings on earth. I myself would not call these things "priceless" advantages. Rather, they can be very negative influences. Striving to eliminate what causes the misery, frustration and illness has been the goal of people for a long, long time, and so it should be.

Parents over centuries have tried to teach their children the difference between right and wrong whether a Christian Bible has been used as guide or not, and whether there is faith in God or not. Imparting to younger generations the knowledge of what is right and what is wrong is merely transferring of a means of survival, in my opinion. The instinct to survive is innate in all of us. What we do is nurture what is already there.

I do not agree with the principle of "Spare the rod, spoil the child". To me love and nurturing are far more important and powerful tools than any spank on the bottom ever could be. One does not cultivate a healthy garden by beating it with a hoe or depriving it of water and care (love).

I feel that the legacy we give to younger generations is guidance, understanding, caring, tolerance and a willingness to share what wisdom we've acquired over the years we've lived by talking to the people in those generations and, above all, listening to what they say to us. We cannot know what problems younger generations face in their lives in the 21st century unless we
listen and learn from them.

Mal

Is it possible that we of the "older" generation are not listening enough to our youngers? Are we expecting them to do all the listening, assuming that we are the ones with the "knowledge?"

Robby

No Robby you can't TELL future generations about how to cope with life. It has to be experienced first-hand. They listen and try to absorb, but they don't understand. Its too much for them who were cossetted and the first adversity that come across feels like the world is coming to an end.

What seniors went through during ¾ of a century cannot be bought. Our strength and resillience is immense. The next century might go through much worse than we did, who knows. But they will have to go through with it and some will cope and others won't.

For 7 years between my 5th year and my 12th year we went through such poverty, that only our mother's strength and determination could cope with the strain and we would not have learned how to survive. It was like 7 years of war. A parent who can give her children the extent of education she gave us during that time should be given a medal for bravery. It was a school of survival, of moral integrity of pure courage. Faith in God is what sustained her even if she never preached. She just 'lived' her faith. She was never discouraged, never without resources. Through her varied readings she acquired knowledge that she passed on to us. Her heart was in the right place.

Even if I tried to pass on the lessons I learned, it did not impress on my children in the same way. They had comfort. After the war, poverty went out the window. Sure you can tell them about adversity, but without living it, you can only skim the surface but the deep lessons that you learn while going through that, cannot be absorbed.

Take away their comfort and watch how the next generation will cope. Electricity, water and fuel will be in short supply and prices will soar, pollution will be worse, food will be transgenic and will pass on unwanted genes. Nations will want what other nations have and poor ones will try to invade the rich countries in order to live a better life. Those poor will demand equal treatment and will depend on the new country's help, which will deplete budgets.

It will be a totally different century with high tech and the shrinking of the planet. But adversity they will have, you can bet on that. Our own century will pale compared to what the next generation will go through. What we passed on to them will determine the strength they will have to sustain their own adversity.

Misery and stress are relative, not absolute. Comfort or not, I know my kids and many of their peers and my grandchildren and their peers went through and are going through varying degrees of struggle and adversity and came through, or are now coming through, them well.

One does not have to go through physical hunger to know hunger and need, perhaps a different kind, but hunger and need, nevertheless. One does not have to go through a severe economic depression or a world war in the way that those of us who did not actually go and fight that war to know what war, conflict and deprivation are like.

The fight to survive in an immensely competitive, cold world and the struggle to succeed in an often unfriendly, tremendously demanding work environment today demands the same strength and sometimes sacrifice that it took us to get through what we went through.

All of my kids went to work at an early age and left home to further their education without financial help from their parents. After finishing as much school as they could work for and pay for themselves, they went out on their own, often barely making enough to keep a roof over their heads and food in their mouths. Do these younger people and others I know who are like them not know adversity? I say they do, and I say they show great strength.

I am not negative about the future ahead, I have hope for that future, knowing the young people I do and listening to what they tell me about their lives in the past, their lives now and their hopes and plans for the future.

Rather than using the criterion of my own past life to examine and assess what these younger generations are and what they do, I use theirs.

Mal

Eloise says:--"Our own century will pale compared to what the next generation will go through. What we passed on to them will determine the strength they will have to sustain their own adversity."

They will not have our experiences so exactly what are we passing on to them?

Robby

Malryn - I understand what you are saying, but we have to WAIT until adversity strikes to see how they will cope. They have NOT had anything like we did yet. In general, they still have way too much comfort in spite of the struggles they went through. That's not what I call adversity. The last war was adversity for those who fought it for those who lived through it at home. You yourself have strength, more than many other people I know, and YOU passed on your strength to your brood because you went through what you did. I am not a pessimist, I just observe what I see around me. I live with young people all the time too and I listen to them complain about their lack of money. Complain about the Banks who won't give them MORE credit.

Robby - The example of our strength in going through adversity. Our integrity, our resillience. We can preach, we can rant and rave that's not enough. For those of us who had the chance and the courage to transfer to them some of that strength will help them go through adversity.

Life must be lived forwards, but can only be understood backwards.

--Soren Kierkegaard

As Mal said people have always strived to give their children the lessons they learned. We learn that certain behavior is better than others through our own trials. When we are helped when down we see the need to help others. We can call them ten commandments or we can call them good sense but survivors see the need to have rules and limits to destructive behavior.

My grandparents left Ireland and Germany and came to America with so little and they survived because it was necessary to do so. Each succeeding generation survived and prospered because it was needed.The younger generations will do that as well. Some will fail as some of my relatives did because they did not have the courage to do different. Yet they came from the same home life, had the same moral upbringing, had no less than the siblings who educated themselves and learned a trade and opened a business.

My own children have done the same. We helped them but inside them was a need to help themselves. I am not even sure we can teach that. In the small church I attend I see the most dedicated young people. They see a world that offers them opportunity and they are working to take advantage of that opportunity. When the local Relay for Life fund raiser for cancer was held this year these young people held car washes and sold doughnuts, raked lawns, help seniors who needed garages cleaned out etc in order to raise the hundred dollars each person who participated in the relay was asked to promise.

As seniors our adversity is not over. It comes daily to all of us..the need to get through another day. Some perfectly healthy seniors just give up and others survive devastating health problems and overcome. What makes one a survivor and one not I dont know.

I recall my brothers, city raised who survived WWII and the younger ones Korea and Vietnam. Yet I remember one of my older brothers who had an Indian in his unit. While they trained in the deserts of the West this Indian would take rattlesnakes and snap their necks. His bravery was admired by all. He and my brother fought in Europe and survived The Battle of the Bulge by hiding in a root cellar of a Belgium farm family. While in a relocation center in France awaiting thier turn to come home the Indian committed suicide. His memories of the war was too much for him. My brother returned, married and had a family and lived to be 74. Why did one survive and one not?

What am I trying to say? I worry that some of my grandchildren will not be a survivor. They seem to have so much but who knows what resilency they have inside. I will trust it will be what ever they need to become adults and parents of the future.

Anna says:--"I worry that some of my grandchildren will not be a survivor. They seem to have so much but who knows what resilency they have inside."

How many of you folks are worried about your grandchildren?

Robby

I wonder just what it is we are worried about? Atomic war? Nearly complete devastation? The end of the world?

In the past I was caregiver and friend to two old men who were nearing the end of their long lives. In the first instance, this man talked of nothing but the end of the world and death. After trying very hard to show him he had a lot to live for - whether it was a month or several years - I concluded that he took comfort out of thinking the world would end when he died and stopped trying to convince him otherwise.

The other man never stopped thinking of the future. He was a complete and absolute realist in every sense of the word and was up-to-date with the news and what was going on in the world. Yet he listened carefully to what the younger people, with whom he surrounded himself and with whom he spent many happy hours, said about their dreams of the future and how they saw the world, and he took their words and hope and spirit as his guide.

He never let go. He never gave up. When the unezpected time of his death came, he was planning to move to a different state in order to create for himself a different life and future. He was close to 90 at the time.

Sometime I think we translate what we think is a non-future for ourselves to the rest of humanity and the world, rather than keeping in mind that if we live only one more day we do, indeed, have a future.

An interesting thing happened to me today. My 26 year old granddaughter came over to do some cleaning for me. Since my priorities go beyond sweeping floors, we went out in my car to have coffee together and talked about her life and mine. I offered some suggestions about issues she has right now, and she offered suggestions about certain problems I have. We had our coffee and a sandwich in my car, came home, and she picked up the broom.

While she was sweeping, I read her four chapters of the book I'm writing right now. The book is about people her age, and I was somewhat nervous about reading it to her, afraid that someone my age (73) would not be able to put in words how her generation feels.

How did she react? She said, "Ami." (That's what she calls me). "Ami," she said, "you know, don't you? You know what we think about, what we hope for and fear."

Do you know how that made me feel? You're right. I felt good.

I repeat: Listen to what they say, these people of younger generations. They'll tell you better than you could ever project what is bothering them about this time now and the future which will come to them. If you listen very carefully, you'll find that the real concerns they have are not about credit extended to them by banks.

Mal

Mal's granddaughter said:--"You know what we think about, what we hope for and fear."

Share with us, Mal. What are their hopes and fears?

Robby

I had to suppress a smile when my daughter and SIL became parents for the first time! One of the first things my daughter said to me was "And she is not dating seriously til she is 16" The rule in our house was lots of friends in big groups, bring your friends home, but there are no serious dates until you are 16. This caused much gnashing of teeth amongst the girls but the boys did not care their sport and cars came first.

My daughter also said to me "Mum I am so glad you were strict about where we went and who we saw. I looked back when I turned 20 and saw some of the girls I envied when I was 15 stuck in a rut with no partner and babies to bring up"

I felt when my kids were teens it was not my job to be popular it was my job to keep them safe. This is the hard road.

The one thing I do regret is that I was a working mum. I missed out on a lot and it has influenced my eldest sensitive daughter to be a stay at home Mum at least until her kids are at school. My SIL works two demanding skilled jobs in order for her to be able to do this.

My kids also say that having to work for extras as children has given them drive and the confidence to succeed in the world.

All of the children but one are conservative parents setting boundaries for their children. There is a marked difference in the children who have boundaries to the one who has none. The one with no boundaries is missing out because people dread his visits and I for one cannot handle him for an overnight stay. I worry about this childs teenage years if there are no stop signs for him.

Carolyn

Robby:

I can only tell you what my 26 year old granddaughter Megan said. Her fears and those of her friends are that a terrible war will stop their lives before they have the chance to live to see some of their hopes and what they work for materialize.

This comment of hers led to a discussion about how to prevent such a disastrous thing from happening. What Meggie said is, "Talk. Talk before we kill each other." Makes sense to me.

When I asked how, she said, "I learned from you that we are all human beings, that we want and need many of the same things, so talk about them and don't let anything else come in the way."

When I asked what the "anything else" was, she said, "Gender issues, racial differences, prejudice, religious differences, cultural differences."

The hopes? Not so different from what we as seniors had when we were young. A job, security, family, someone to love and care for. Meg has decided that for a while she'll live her life independently without a partner. When I asked why, she said, "When I feel as if I am secure enough in myself and what I need to do alone, then I'll think about sharing my life with someone else." (And she has tried that.)

"First," she said," I have to find out what the messes of my childhood did to me and resolve those problems." She has admitted to me that her life would have been easier if her parents had decided the same thing.

We discussed relationships and what they were based on. Megan, who is 47 years younger than I am, said that the best relationship between two people of any age is not based on physical attraction, but is more than that, a sharing of intellect, likes, dislikes, goals and values.

As an aside I'll say I wish I'd known my granddaughter a long time ago.

Mal

My grandchildren are so young, the oldest of six being just 8. The mothers work and I am proud of these young women who are using their education and still trying to be good moms. My sons were raised to help and they do that. They baby sit, take care of the little ones when Mom has to go out of state to conferences, prepare meals, do laundry etc. I am proud of them as well.

Still each home looks like a Toys r Us. The children are used to wanting something and getting it. My daughter who was here this weekend with her two ( 7 and 5) picked up after thier messes instead of making them help. The 5 year old was astonished when I told him to pick up the stuff he had left on the floor and only complied when I said No TV if you dont pick up. Those are the rules in Nana's house.

I understand as busy as these mother's are how time consuming it is to see that a child learns to be responsible for some of its messes. The fathers are the same way ..with so many shared responsibilities they dont take the time needed to see the children help some. Perhaps my grandchildren will be as independent as their parents and do some things because they want to not because they are made to.

I look forward to the day when they are older and we can share more. The 8 and 7 year olds are girls and they have stayed with me several times and we always have a great time. They are helpful when I ask them to set the table or do some task..NOW that cheers me!

By the way my motto has always been You Cant Help Aging But You Dont Have To Grow Old. I tell my doctor I intend living to a hundred and I expect him to help me do that. I cant imagine what it would be like not to look forward to not just a new day but a new world and a better world.

My grandparents, my parents and my five brothers always embraced life. That is the greatest gift and one I thank them for.

Oh, Anna! I DO know that look of astonishment! My little great granddaughter has been astonished more than once since she arrived on July 24, but here in MY home we follow Gran Cobb's rules. She especially has trouble saying "Yes, Ma'am" or "Yes, please", instead of "Yeh." She is doing it, however, quite agreeably. I am sticking to the requirement and, hey, we're getting there!

Emily is seven. oops! and three quarters. Please don't forget the three quarters!

Am I hearing that the message to young folks is "consistency" is extremely important?

Robby

You bet!

There are a lot more Rs than the "three" required in raising agreeable human beings.

Responsibility is, as Mal points out, extremely important. Reasonableness. Rationality. Realism. Refinement. Remonstration. Repetition. Respect.

Boy, am I confused.

"Yes, ma'am"?
MaryPage, I am surprised.

"Consistency?"

At what stop did I miss this boat?

Mal

The aging of America is partly a triumph of affluence and major advances in medical technology that have increased life expectancies and the quality of life for the aged. It is possible for unprecedented numbers of people to enjoy long retirements free from poverty and in better health. Americans are living longer than ever before, enjoying longer retirements, receiving ever higher annual Social Security benefits, as well as rapidly rising levels of medical care.

Considering the hardships of our youth that were described earlier, is it Gratitude Time?

Robby

MAL - can Megan come to my house for awhile? Boy, what a treasure!

MARYPAGE - I second your household rules. That's the way I raised my son - perhaps more so, since we were a multigenerational, multicultural household. When my grandson, who is now 9, asked a few years ago what my "first name" was, my son replied "Gram's first name is Yes, Ma'am." My grandson complained "No, that's Mom's name!" I was laughing so hard, I had to leave the room and didn't hear the end of the discussion.

Mal - Your grand'daughter gets her strength from you. Respect, love, help, guidance, continuity, safety etc. etc. I see my 10 grand'children growing strong too and it comes from way back.

The world of aging portrayed in the mass media has not traditionally been an enjoyable or positive one.

The elderly population suffer from negative stereotyping more than any other identifiable social group. Preconceived notions about cognition, physical ability, health, sociability, personality, and work capability perpetuate these negative stereotypes. In American culture, increasing age seems to portend decreasing value as a human being.

Old people today are generally not appreciated as experienced "elders" or possessors of special wisdom. They are simply seen as sometimes remaining competent enough to be included in the unitary role category of "active citizens." Old people are respected to the extent that they can behave like young people -- that is, to the extent that they remain capable of working, enjoying sex, exercising and taking care of themselves.

Comments please?

Robby

At this age and still be able to write on the computer alone is something to be grateful for. The past century was eventful and rich and we were the ones who shaped it. We produced a progeny that is in the process of building the next century with the tools we provided them with.

I am grateful to God for being alive, healthy comfortable, for the gift of being able to express myself freely, for the gift of seeing my grand son display those precious values that were those of my grand parents, for the gift of watching the world progress beyond the wildest imagination in space. It was a gift that new discoveries now cure and treat diseases that used to be deadly permitting us to live longer and fairly healthy.

I pray that the people who will shape the next century will find within themselves the strength to preserve the earth free of evilness, pollution and war and that they find ways to advance in scientific achievements without destroying the values that were those of the preceding century.

Eloise:--What a wonderful post expressing so many things to be grateful for!!

Any other "gratitude lists" here?

Robby

I have only one thing to be grateful for. I'm glad to be alive. When I had polio in 1935 I nearly died. After I slowly began to recover, the doctor told my family I'd never live to be a teenager.

Baby, look at me now !!
Mal

Go for it, Mal!

Anyone else?

Robby

Great story, Mahlia!

I thank God Mal fooled the prognosticators, and rejoice in her life, which has given so much to so many. Just take a look at her wonderful face, and you see humor and wisdom personified there.

Yes, Mal; "Yes Ma'am" is an epitome of good manners in my native Virginia, and I do find it satisfactory. As Pooh would say, punning madly here, it is an "answering thing."

Robby,

Did you see the article in this morning's Post (page F8, in the Health section--it's actually a letter) about the fact that characterizing people as seniors after 50 or 55 is becoming irrelevant? It now starts at 75--these folks are known as "young old". At 85 they can be characterized as "old old".

Seems like we're all younger than we thought. Does that mean we have to do more?

Hurrah! I'm not even "young old" yet, so does that make me "young?" And Robby, hey, look where you're headed!

brash youngster of 72 addressing almost "old old" of nearly 81......

Dear Mary Page, my friend in life, art and music:

If you'd read my story, "Ruby", in the current issue of Sonata, it wouldn't have taken you long to see how delighted I was when my neighbor down the street in Durham, NC in the late 50's took my two little boys, age 6 and 2, in hand and taught them to say "Yes, Ma'am", "Yes, Sir" and show Southern respect for elders that this Yankee from New England had never seen before. I was joshing, my dear, that's all.

About seniors in films and on TV: It's hard for me to comment since I rarely ever watch television and have not been to a movie theater for several years, not because I didn't want to go. Some of us have to cut the garment according to the cloth, as they say up North where I come from.

I will say I detested the "I've fallen and can't get up" commercial of a few years ago. That's happened to me, completely to my surprise, since I always could handle such a thing before now. Not fun. Not fun at all. It was one of the most demeaning things I've ever seen, that commercial. Enough to make me want to turn the TV set off for good.

Mal

Hear! Hear!

Clap! Clap!

Mary Page, if you do happen to read Ruby, I have to tell you the only the first part of the story is mostly true. Unfortunately, there never was a Ruby, though I did, indeed, hear a jazz singer in St. Augustine when I lived there who improvised and "scatted" on operatic arias.

Mal

Jean - Mal - MaryPage - Carolyn and of course Robby - What! "old old" at only 85? I was on a radio show with a lady of 92 who was off playing golf afterwards. Imagine calling "baby boomers" "old" that's going to be a hoot to see them protest. I told my kids never to talk to me about their retirement and I say to people don't say such and such to me because I'm too young yet, I still have at least 25 years to go.

Our first job if we want to change the media's attitude about our age group is to make PUBLIC by letter, phone call, newspaper, magazine our appreciation of an ad showing a person over 55. We are not vocal enough. We are so polite. We don't want to 'hurt' people's feelings by criticizing. Yet they count on us for buying their products and watching their trash on TV. Also by NOT buying products which are age discriminatory. We have clout and lets use it.

MAL - I saw that advertisement you mentioned and was absolutely disgusted. I talked about it with a couple of friends and we decided that we would protest. Between the three of us, we got about 100 of our friends, colleagues and acquaintances to write and call to complain - and in VERY strong language. I've worked for most of my adult life (and as a volunteer in my youth) with various individuals who deal with disabilities of many kinds. As a 5 year old, I had rheumatic fever, was hospitalized in total isolation for 6 months (without any family visits), needed to learn to walk all over again, and then learned that the doctors had told my parents that I would NEVER be able to lead a normal life: continue my education, graduate from high school and/or college, marry, have children, travel, develop a profession, be active in sports, etc. My mother believed them; I did not, nor did my life bear any of the restrictions forecast for me at such a young age. The stamina and courage of individuals like yourself is a wonderful thing to behold! You can ride on my sled anytime and I'll even let you wear my treasured red mittens!

I look at my left nand, just one of the two that played so many concerti and sonatas and so much jazz. The fingers are gnarled and head east where I sit instead of directly south where they once did and should. The veins just below them are an intricately woven pattern of embroidery. All are covered by a delicately tucked and pleated layer of skin. I think my left hand is beautiful, and so is the right one and the rest of aging me.

My whole life is gnarled, embroidered and woven, tucked and pleated, a not quite finished fabric, not the sleek, smooth, not anywhere close to being finished fabric of youth.

I do what I am able to do with a body that has always been less than perfect and is no longer young. No competition with youth for me, no. I earned all these scars and wrinkles, all these gray hairs you see, and wear them proudly like medallions, proof of a job well done.

The fastest thing I have at my no longer youthful age is my mind. I exercise it and other parts of me every day. When the elbows and knees wear out, that overtaxed and stimulated mind will be here (if I'm lucky) to take me to places where I've never been, leap hurdles I was never physically able to leap, climb mountains and soar into space, talk to and make love to people who are centuries of years old and brand new.

It is my mind that directs me and always has. Right now it is saying, "Get up from this computer, dammit, get your crutches and take me and the rest of you outside for a clean, fresh air walk."

Mal

Thank goodness I am with some of the youngest people in the world. Mal has always thumbed her nose at those who would say she couldn't and I think the rest of us do the same.

And I am not polite about letting people know age has nothing to do with being old. Everytime a doctor told me some problem I had was part of the aging process I would tell them about some person 30+ years younger who had the same problem. All I want to hear is what can be done about it. If nothing then I will just learn to LIVE with it.

It took me a long time to appreciate my family, my many relatives, the neighbors and everyone who contributed to the me I am ...BUT I am grateful beyond measure that they were there for me. I remember sassily telling my father You cant teach old dogs new tricks! WOW I would eat humble pie if I could tell him how many new tricks this dog has learned.

Whenever someone suggests I sell my home and move into a smaller place with less work I tell them MY HOUSE NEEDS ME ! and I need it. Once in awhile I hire someone to help me since at 5' it is hard to do some things.. But I am pleased I can still run a vac and with these wonderful tilt in windows I can watch the birds at the feeders through clear glass.

In some of the classes I attended at the local University we had some ladies who were pushing 90 and one over 100..They were fascinating..with their stories , their poetry, their attitude. We have people who attend in wheelchairs, with walkers and with canes. None of which takes away from the sparkle in their eyes, thier wit and wonderful sense of humor nor their intelligence.

HOORAH FOR ALL OF US! It was considered ill bred to TOOT ones own horn years ago BUT I think we should all get the loudest ones we can find and TOOT.

Thanks all you good people for your wonderful attitude for which I am VERY GRATEFUL. anna

Mal - Thanks for coming to the Quebec folder to say Hello! What you just wrote above was so beautiful it made my cry. I printed it to remind me of you and to learn from you how to write. So to exercise the mind is the secret to make it stay young is it? I very well can see how this is true in D in A.

Annafair - You take courses at University too do you? What a bunch we are.

Eloise--

I was highly offended at two of the commercials for raunchy sitcoms that NBC saw fit to show during West Wing last week. The comparison between the excellence of WW, and these utterly vulgar sitcoms was just too much.

So, I went on to NBC.com yesterday, and refusing to be derailed by their insistence that I take a poll about WW, hung in there til I got the place where I could send them a message. And I did. I realize that the networks target most of their shows to the 18-49 age group.

Now, today, the percentage of people in that age group who have had the benefits of a college education is higher than it has ever been in our history. I can't see the point of teaching people about how to judge excellence in literature, etc. if they are going to settle for Survival and those raunchy sitcoms.

One of the early screens in the process asked for my age; I didn't lie. So, if they only care about the younger folks, they may not even read my letter.

Jean - I believe it when someone said that one letter is worth 10 phone calls and it usually gets where it is supposed to go. So don't be discouraged and think they don't read your letter because of your age. They do and it counts. I think I'm going to write to my Provincial and Federal Governments more often from now on especially about RETIRING their employees as early as 50 or 55. If that happens anyway, these 'young' people should immediately find another job. When it happened to my brother, he started painting. He is now in his 70's and is so good. He sells all his work. He is a watercolorist.

Oh, such wonderful comments from all on the process of aging and how we see ourselves. Let me tell you, it is no small task to grow beyond that all-protected and valued category of YOUTH. Here are some things that really bother me in our culture.... actors (such as Fay Dunaway) who are around 60 and look MUCH younger than they did at 40 because of multiple surgeries. Their version of "staying young" is just one more way of devaluing growing older. Those who mean staying active and staying healthy when they say "staying young" should stop and think how this perpetuates "young" is better than "old."

I'm not thinking of launching into a discussion on plastic surgery, but it makes me sad that at virtually no time in a woman's life is her natural adult face ok as it is. The culture we live in promotes (to the tune of billions each year) all the various ways women must redo the look of her natural physical face...in order to approach "beauty." Starting in her 20s, she has the best chance of looking beautiful...with the correct moisturizing regime and makeup. With each laugh line or crow's foot, however, the chance of looking "flawless" (translated: beautiful) decreases. Time for the surgeon's knife. Or, if one cannot afford that, to feel ever more un-beautiful as time passes. All women's cosmetic companies could have as their unspoken subtext, you're not ok as you are and it will get worse. (What young men have been internalizing about their whole physical bodies, the last 10-15 years, is not far behind in intensity, but for a very long time a freshly scrubbed face is still fine.)

It's just too bad that any reference to old, elderly, aging, has to be explained or modified. By itself, it's not ok. One says, "I'm an active 74 year old...and I feel young inside!!" Without the ever-present high value on youth, we might could feel/say, "I'm 74 this morning and isn't life great!! I'm so glad I don't ever have to be 54 again." (individual preference for someone) Someone else might say, I hated my 20s, loved my 30s, hated my 40s and now I'm in my 50s and it's my favorite. Another might say, I'm only 45 and can't wait until I'm 60...the people I know at 60 all seem to be at peace with themselves. These are tough examples to write because I'm attempting to leave out a cultural preference for youth and it's difficult to imagine.

The other thing that bothers me and I've only begun to be bothered....all the jokes about aging. There's an undercurrent there I hadn't noticed before. The jokes look harmless but they are full of stereotypes. I feel certain that we could joke about aging in some other way if youth was not so over-valued.

To realize how few women beyond 30 (those without doctored faces) are shown on television or movies, watch some BBC or PBS British produced movies....they actually include middle aged and elderly women with undoctored faces!! Remind yourself to take note for a while, to see if you see a range of women's ages on U.S. television. We can talk of the implications (and how that feels) at another time.

betty

How did the American culture develop such blatant disregard and disrespect for the elderly? Gerontologists Butler, Lewis and Sunderland suggest the following causes:--

1 - A history of mass immigration, still ongoing, mostly consisting of the young leaving the elderly behind in Europe and Asia.
2 - A nation founded on principles of individualism, independence, and autonomy.
3 - The development of technologies that demand rapid change and specialized skills.
4 - A general devaluation of tradition.
5 - Increased motility of the population within a large continental space.
6 - Medical advances that have relegated most deaths to later life, producing a tendency to associate death with old age.

All these have made it difficult to embrace old age itself as a valued and contributory phase of life.

Robby

I am not sure the emphasis on staying young is really new. If I remember my history it seems women of wealth at least have always tried to stay as young looking as possible. They used milk baths, mud baths, compounds that included arsenic on their faces to hide pox scars among other things. Wigs when their hair thinned ..I think if we really look at history men as well as women tried various means to stay youthful.

I think it is a shame that people resort to surgery but then actresses etc are in a field where beauty is important. Politicians, musicians, anyone who is in the public eye try to stay looking young.While exercise is good for you healthwise a lot of people think it also keeps them more youthful. Kenny Rogers had liposuction and if you see candid photos of some who look fantastic in movies it is shocking to see they look quite ordinary and their age. Privately I find it rather reassuring

I just recieved an article on how to keep the mind young. Most I know including myself dont mind aging but we find it frustrating when the things we used to do in five minutes now take a half hour. I can remember taking care of 4 children, cooking gourmet family meals, doing all the many things to keep a house presentable and still finding time to pursue outside interests including a lot of volunteer work.

My mothers generation was no different or my grandmothers. There was always pride that they stayed active and because they avoided exposing thier skin to the sun they stayed youthful looking until very old age. Even at 86 my mother's skin was soft and mostly unwrinkled. My grandmother's skin really never aged until she was 90. None of them used makeup except for a dusting of face powder.

So I dont think the emphasis on looks or trying to stay young is new. When I was a child I had many relatives who were in their 70's and 80's and I adored them. I loved their wrinkles and found them fascinating. My father came from a family of 13 and my mother was the second from the youngest of 11. She married at 16 and my father was 30 and I didnt arrive until after they were married 15 years. I share that to explain why I had all these older relatives. They all had interesting stories to tell. A couple of my uncles were cowboys when they were young, one was called Wild Bill who married and fathered a large family while being somewhat a roue` and a vagabond. He was quite a story teller.

People who stay active and interesting as they age are always welcome. Right here in this group we can see that. We admire those whose thinking remains young even while the body ages. My youngest daughter has friends who tell me and her they wish their mothers were like me. Independent and active. They take me out for lunch when I visit her and we have wonderful conversations and they listen to me.

So let us not be too hard on ourselves or those who try to stay young at heart.

just thinking at 6 am...anna

AnnaFair tells us:-"People who stay active and interesting as they age are always welcome. So let us not be too hard on ourselves or those who try to stay young at heart.

And she tells us that at 6 a.m.!!

Robby

Anna, would you allow me to play with your words? "We admire those whose thinking remains young..." you wrote. Well, what if staying active, healthy and continuing to use one's mind could be how we think of "old" as well as "young." So, remaining active would not be exclusively a "young" thing to do. Under a broader definition of "old," it would say "staying active physically and continuing to learn and grow." As Gloria Steinem said after someone said she didn't LOOK 40 years old!....."This is how 40 looks!!"

A study by Gerbner, Gross, Morgan and Signorielli states that the under-representation of elderly on TV is no accident. It mirrors the income distribution of the U.S. economic strata. In short -- "Women may do most of the buying and older Americans may have significant purchasing and investment clout, BUT men earn and the middle-aged groups spend most of the money in this country."

The average age of characters in prime time TV commercials is approximately 30-35 years old. The elderly fare even worse in weekend daytime programming, as the average age of characters in commercials then peak at between five and ten years old, falling sharply during teen years, peaking slightly for parent-figures at 35-40 and tapering to almost none, even for grandparent-figures.

Further, women appear to age faster than men in commercials, and women disppear into old age invisibility between 40-45 years of age, as opposed to men, who fade slowly to less than 5% of all characters by age 55 and over.

Personality profiles show that elderly women are both more repulsive and peaceful than younger females. Elderly men are seen as less fair, rational, and happy than those of younger age groups.

Robby

Is it possible that the representation of elders on TV and in movies has some basis in fact? How many grumpy and grouchy, complaining and generally negative, the-end-of-the-world-is-coming old folks do you know? The seniors who come in to Books and Lit are not typical or average people, in my opinion. On the other hand, as I tour through other SeniorNet discussions I have read numerous posts about ailments, death, injuries, the past, the past, the past (which was always "better" than now) and receive a very negative impression of people who are older.

It doesn't take a youthful body to be "young". People who are forward-looking, not stuck in their own generation, the Depression, World War II and have a genuine interest in younger generations and what they think and do are youthful, in my estimation. Turning one's nose up at what is new and different accomplishes only one thing, stagnation.

As a publisher of three electronic magazines, I have the job of choosing art and music to go on the web pages I build. I try to fit the illustration and music to each particular piece. Sometimes I use classical fine art and classical music. Sometimes I use the music of our time, Swing, Elvis music and the Beatles. Many times I use Rock, punk, funk, fusion music and abstract art.

How do I know about Rock, punk, funk, fusion, contemporary and abstract art? I've made a point to find out, to see exactly what's going on right now with these things. I surf the web and read stories by young people just to see what they write about and think. I talk to young people. They and their dreams of the future interest me.

Does this make me young? Nope. I'm still the same age, still have the same past and background, still have certain aches and pains that have developed as I've grown older. What it does do, though, is trigger off curiosity about more. What's going on somewhere else with other people? That curiosity pushes me on to find out.

To tell the truth, I am often moderately horrified to see people my age and even 10 or 20 years younger who are stuck in such ruts of the past that they can't even move.

Mal

Just as I was feeling good about myself I find that I am repulsive..AUGH !

Betty I think we agree. Years ago when I was a Girl Scout leader we had a small number of girls in the troop who acted OLD! They didnt want to do anything that was fun. I have never known such a stodgy group. The rest of the troop would be having the best time doing some of the silly things I devised. These girls would look at us as if we were silly and out of it.

For a few years while my husband was alive there were five couples who would do things together. Have gourmet meals, go to plays, etc and on our picnics we would take along a device that allows you to make super bubbles ( I still use mine my grandkids think it is neat) It was such a lighthearted group. I have many happy memories of that group. I still have friends who ENJOY life to the fullest. I guess you can call it acting young or just remembering life is enjoyable.

So I guess we can say This is what 70 looks like or in Robby's case This is what 81 looks like. Whatever I think we look wonderful. Robby I have a question for you. Do you at 81 think you are young at heart or old? I am not sure I am asking the right question.

Remember we have survived a lot to reach our advanced ages. In a poem I wrote I said we are the last of the long grey line. Most of us have lost many loved ones and dear friends. While Mal survived polio and defied the doctors prediction I have survived 7 major operations starting with an emergency appendectomy at 16. If there was an emergency to an operation I was the one who had it for everyone else. Last year I had a hernia repair ( along an incision from 30 years ago) so I could get on with my life!

Positive people at any age are young. Perhaps it is sad we cant say Gee I am old and that is the way it is. I cant say why that seems a negative to me but it does. My spirit just soars and it feels young! I cant help that ...and I think of my aged relatives who enjoyed life and they set the example. I knew they were OLD in years but they seemed young to me. They were funny and full of life and they were my example. I AM GRATEFUL TO EACH ..anna who is still thinking at 10:24 am ..love you all....

Just as I was checking what I wrote there appeared Mal's summation. Perhaps the reason I think we are young is because we still are curious.

When I was preparing for my daughter and her two ( 7 and 5) to come for week I spent some time putting things away I felt were dangerous or too valuable. WHY because they are curious and Jack, the five year old is into to everything. I dont consider that bad I just dont want him to get into something that may hurt him.

Now here we are at advanced ages STILL getting into things. A computer was something to learn about and enjoy! Using the net to research things of interest, learning something new, not thinking I cant but I CAN!

We are like my grandson always wondering about things and trying to learn. Life just doesnt get better than that.

Hugs to all you delicious, thinking beings ..who challenge me every time I come here. anna

Robby--

I think you may be off by about 10 years as to the age when women age beyond recall. Take a look at some of the people on TV who are still pretty much glamour folks: Diane Sawyer, in her 50s; Lauren Hutton, ditto (tho I don't like her trademark gap-tooth smile), Katie Couric, also in her 50s.

Also, just to start an argument: Because people are maintaining their more youthful looks and activities well past the age when they become eligible for social security, I am in favor of raising the age of eligibility. Exceptions, of course, for those who are unable to continue working. I didn't even apply for social security until I was 70 (but they did pay me for the years I was eligible but didn't collect).

Katie has not hit 50 yet. She was in the high school class of a former boss of mine. That makes her 46 this year.

maryPage--

Sorry. Must have been misinformed, but there are lots more. I was sure I heard someone on TV say she was 50+ In any case, she's far from over the hill.

Anna:--To answer your question, I feel EXACTLY the same way I felt when I was 30. I know there's a difference when I climb stairs, or bend over to pick up something, or lift something -- but my curiosity in absolutely everything, no exception, is exactly the way it was when I was 13, never mind 30. I wake up every morning, deciding what I am going to do out of the long list of things I want to do. I listen to NPR radio, I read the NY Times, I check out my emails, I do some research on the Internet. I'm not afraid to die but I regret that my time on earth is limited because I have 50 years of stuff I still want to know and do.

Does that answer your question?

Although I ony post to this group infrequently I have followed it assiduously anf finally felt it incumbentupon me to present a very different view of people my age. The last hour was spent writing this thing (it takes me longer because I only type with one finger) and some how the damned web ate it. So after lunch I'll do it all over again.Ugh1 Mary

Be patient, Mary W. We'll wait for your thoughts.

Robby

Ken Dychtwald, author of "Age Wave, The Challenges and Opportunities of an Aging America, says that "Madison Avenue has constructd a smoke screen of myths about the older consumer that have kept most businesses away from this potentially powerful market. We have been led to believe that all older people are poor and cannot afford to purchase new products, or services, even if they want to." Further, he states: "And we have been told over and over that older men and women are fanatically loyal to their brands and too set in their ways for advertisers to bother marketing to them."

Any thoughts on this?

My body is not very young although I am not very old. Its genetics! I cannot do anything about it. However my mind is very young. I would rather mix with young people than people my own age.

A few years ago I joined the over 50's club. Some of the members were much older than me and their bodies in much better condition but their taste in music books etc were too old for me. I could not go along and enjoy the concerts and activities they did. I felt I was too young for them!

My best friend and confidente is 32. I like my kids and enjoy talking to them. Maybe my mind will always stay 32. I like tights and TShirts I hate dresses. Dresses are things I wear if forced to because of a formal occaision. Sometimes I wonder will I still wear tights at 85? I love playing imaginary games with my four year old granddaughter. I love Bob the Builder and Barney! I love Disney Movies.

However my hands are swollen and veined, my face is not very wrinkled. Told on the weekend I am aging well. However I do have health problems.

My body cannot move as fast as others of my age but my mind is like Speedy Gonzales! As long as my mind continues to stay young I will not feel old!

Carolyn

Carolyn says:--"I would rather mix with young people than people my own age."

Anyone else here feel like this?

Robby

That is what I am saying ....our hearts(well maybe not our hearts and the rest of our parts) but our spirits are young! And I think that is a good thing!

About the studies re old folks I say a POX on them and that is an IRISH POX which is the worse kind.

My goodness we have to try new products because a lot of the ones my mother used arent even on the market. And what about the studies that say seniors are using computers and the internet in greater numbers than young people?

My husbands aunt who died at 86 ..17 years ago was a home economics teacher. I have all her cookbooks and little books she collected from a variety of companies. Do any of you remember Aunt Jenny ( who gosh looked ancient) a representative for Spry shortening. I dont but I do remember Spry and I havent seen it on the market in years. Yesterday I looked through a cookbook published in 1927 for the purchasers of Fridgeaire refrigerators. Half the things mentioned havent been in use for as long as I remember!

Elderhostel programs offer seniors such an enormous opportunities. One couple I know went to one in Applachia and learned how to make a dulcimer. The wife(73) who was widowed two years ago just returned from a 72 day trip around the world through the Princess Lines..and they have cameras on board that are beamed to a satellite and I was able to follow her daily. I didnt see her as the cameras focus on the scenery but one day I caught her ship as it was outside the Panama Canal and over the time it took ( I did other things and came back to the computer) I was able to go through the canal with that ship. Among the harbors I visited through this wonderful invention was HongKong..Tahiti, Manilla, etc Went through the Suez Canal with her too!

well I am off to pick some tomatoes from my garden ,,,all of my grandchildren last week picked tomatoes for dinner. For the two oldest ones I sliced the ones they picked and put in separate dishes just for them. They made a sign that said these tomatoes are OFF LIMITS!

Mary will look forward to what you have to say and I have had my computer eat my writings as well. When that happens I could wish it would get indigestion!

anna

Since I am old enough to be the mothe of most of you I have olived a great many years,87 on my next birhday. So, you can see that I am undeniably an old lady.I now look old--I frequently feel old-- and, thank the good Lord I always THINK OLD. The advantage of accrued wisdom serves me well. It does not preclude my ability to understand the problems of the world, the crises of our country, the shortcomings of of my community, or of the changing world our young people now face. I have five grandchildren--all different--with various outlooks--and different problems. We communicate well. We discuss almost everything and they are uniformly pleased and grateful for my interest and understanding.They realize that anyone who is my age has undoubtedly experienced all of what they have confronted or will have to face. They tell me that they always learn something new or

u

Annafair--

Of course I remember Aunt Jenny. And I remember the very first can of Spry we ever bought. Was just wondering the other day what became of the product. Mother and I were so impressed with the pretty little swirl on the shortening when we opened the can that we put our fingers in and tasted it. Blah. No flavor, of course. But it was pretty. One of the very few times that my mother and I shared a real moment.

There's another poem in the Ted Malone book that I think probably describes the way you feel after all the relatives have gone home. I'll try to find time tomorrow to type it out for you.

or useful.

There are also several "surrogate kids", younger people scattered about the country whom I have loved all of their lives. Their parents are now gone but they regard me, as one of them puts it,as "Other Mother".We talk or exchange e-mail frequently and discuss all sorts of things,some of which might blow your minds.This ability to achieve this raport is not because i "think young" but rather because I actually "think old" I never wish to think as young persons think. I want to UNDERSTAND their thinking but not to emulate it. All my years of living and learning have contributed to this wonderful state.

"Staying young" is a crock! It is an impossible fantasy. No matter how young we look we are the sum of our many ageing parts--intellectually, emotionally and physically.

I am thankful for all of the expeiences of my long life--the many physical problems--the inexperienced rearing of our sons(a sort of learning by doing)--the loss of my beloved husband, parents, friends, and for the ability to absorb each event, horrible or ecstatic, and to learn from each one.

The life I now lead althoug very different from any other I have ever lived makes me most thankful,as well.I now live with my son,Ken, who has become my best friend, He is a lovely human being,faithful and caring. He is truly one of the great gifts of my life.

Electronics comprises the world in which I now live. I communicate with those of my family and friends who are still here by telephone or e-mail.I am home bound, rarely get out, but dont really miss some of the hassle I remember.

One of the very best things to happen to me has been the discovery of the internet and best of all Senior Net.The discussions have proven stimulating, sometimes challenging but always enormously rewarding. The lovely friends I have met have truly enhanced my life.

All the parts of the wonderful life I have had have served to keep me interested, aware, learning, and,I hope growing. I do not ever want to think as a young person thinks. I wish to think with the brain to which I have added much over the years. I'm thrilled to be able to no longer think "young"but to think "old"

Hope you can plough through all the bad typing. More about something different later.

Before i close, Robbie, I must thank you for a skillfully led discussion group.I believe you to be a peerless leader as well as clear thinking almost old guy.

MARY

Americans see beauty in a different light than Europeans. It's only a wild guess but it might be because America is a young society, it thrives on youth and in Europe beauty goes back further and down deeper. They admire what has endurence. That is why they are not shy of complimenting an older woman. They admire old literature and old architecture, old art masters. They admire ancient philosophers and thinkers. They are more conservative than Americans.

By what criteria should we define beauty? Who is going to tell us what beauty is. The beauty of a twenty year old is not the same as beauty at sixty, but both have it if they have 'inner' beauty. I saw a girl in the metro today, she obviously was born with deformed arms. Her face was serene and open, like a flour, her eyes were direct, her smile was broad. She had inner beauty.

People who go through surgery and think they will look younger are mistaken. The skin on the face can be pulled and tucked, but the cranium cannot. The bone structure ages and no surgery on earth can stop it. A 50 year old woman who has an hourglass figure and beautiful blond hair might think she looks attractive, but her face is still that of a 50 year old woman.

Why this obsession with youth? Who decides that a women has to look 25 years old forever. Is it a television culture? Or is it because it is natural for a woman to seek a mate at any age and when she goes through surgery to look sexy to get a man, gets exactly what she is looking for, sex. If that is enough for her, then OK, but its not enough for most women. It is pathetic to what length women go through to try and stay 20 something forever. The beauty industry is booming because women buy those products. Nature itself has beauty products that are almost free. White hair in proportion to age looks good on most people.

Every age has beauty and what messages television sends through its programming is directed at those who watch TV the most. The others should not give a hoot.

When we FEEL beautiful, we are. No matter at what age.

Mary - I just noticed your age. I bet you feel beautiful inside and out.

Robby - That study must have been made by 'young' males. An older woman, repulsive!!! Thank God I never felt that way. So I say ... to them.

Robby, your number 80 describes my own feelings.

MaryW, you are NOT old enough to be MY mother!

I meant to tell you all about an article I read in the July 22 WASHINGTON POST magazine that gave some fascinating figures about education which fit in well with what we discussed way back when.

In 1776 children spent an average of 82 days in school  
in their whole lives!

By 1950 it was 9 years!

By 1980 it was 12.5 years!

So we ARE headed in the right direction!

Now, let us look at JUST African Americans!

In 1950, fewer than 14% of adults had a High School education!

By 1980, 51.4% did. So they are getting there along with the rest of us!

Hey, things can't be all that bad when they are improving this much!

Sounds good, Mary Page, doesn't it?

I loved your post, Mary Worth, but then I love you, as
you know darned well. Ready for more reading material?
MaryW is reading my latest opus, have to write chapter 11
and send it off to her tonight!

Mal

My daughter's partner had gall bladder surgery Monday.
She will have gall bladder surgery and a laproscopic
exam day after tomorrow, Friday. Hopefully, these
procedures will bring better health to these two fine
young people and a time of peace, good health and less
stress into this house after a very long period of injury and
ill health.

Mal

Having spent some time bouncing back and forth our opinions about age and feelings and attitudes, what, then, is our message to our "younger" citizens.

Robby

The future is written in the pages of the past because human beings remain basically the same since the beginning of time in spite of advances in modern technology.

I will say to young people of today to heed the advice of their elders, like First Nations did with respect and thoughtfulness, because elders have lost some of the passions of youth which clouds a better judgment with an anticipated aura of success while elders have acquired a wisdom still absent until a man or a woman has advanced in age.

Tonight I say to younger generations that I hope they grow as old as we have and do it as well.

Mal

Mary Page came in earlier with some good news about education. Today I received a letter from my sister who lives on the coast of Maine. The northern seacoast town she mentions is where her daughters, my nieces, all live. I wonder what effect this sort of thing will have on younger generations? I feel certain it is not an isolated case.

"The last sardine factory in Lubec has closed. This is a huge and sad event. Lubec, a town of 1000, has lost 250 jobs. People have been working there all their lives and now it is gone. They are disadvantaged people in every way, not given too many gifts. Lots of them have no schooling so there is no hope that they will be retrained.

"Some of the workers remember when Lubec was a real place, with 40 sardine factories and lots of work. There were movie theaters downtown, stores to shop in, things going on, and a population of about 10,000, so it's said Now it is even more of a ghost town.

"A while back, some years, there was a fire bug in Lubec, fires set galore. Turns out it was the son of the fire chief but this is the sort of thing that will happen. There will be such problems. One year there was talk of shutting the school and that will come up again, I imagine."

Mary W....YES!!! I shouted "Yes!!" when I read that you "THINK OLD" (your caps) and then you listed all the accumulated qualities and wisdom within "thinking old." That's exactly what I was struggling to explain, that "young" stereotypes (being active, healthy, curious) help perpetuate the myths.

So, using all the HEALTHY attributes that Mary W. lists, that's what thinking old looks like!

"Old" can look good (wrinkles and aging skin included), old can feel good (less anxiety, more peace, more confidence, more wisdom) and old can shine with intelligence and miles of perspective. Pressing the point to the extreme (just for fun), there is far more to celebrate about being old than being young. I look at my son's current phase of restlessness, of his uncertainty, and I understand that much of it comes from lack of experience. If he goes through a similar time, say, 15 years from now, he probably will be much better prepared.

Personal examples (your thinking of someone) is far better than an example from me, but I just thought of two pictures of Jackie Kennedy.....first, the whispery voice doing a television tour/interview in the White House (every stiff inch of her body hair-sprayed into place).....and much later as a literary editor, consumed with her work and looking very comfortable/relaxed inside her skin. The older Jackie was far more beautiful physically and her older thinking far more interesting and....evolved.

betty

I meant when I said my mind is young that I like to look at life with fresh eyes. I have no time for the current philosophy which says if you are not unwrinkled, slim and beautiful you are worthless. My sister cares for many elderly people. They are pretty much absorbed in themselves. They take little interest in what is going on in the lives of others. What I am saying is that I like to keep a young mind. I am continually educating myself. I care about what is happening to our planet and our young people.

What would I say to our young people. Discard the current obsession with consumerism and concentrate on the things that matter. They are family, friends and community. Look at people for how they are on the inside and not on the outside. Be honest in your business dealings and with those whom you live alongside. Give your children boundaries and as much of your time as you can possibly spare. Tell them constantly you love them. I think that about sums up what I would tell todays generation.

Carolyn

Carolyn, you summed up my feelings very well.

Ruth Ann

I second Ruth Ann...and it is good advice for any one at any age. Thanks for saving my mind of how to express my feelings and my advice. You did it ! anna at 3:07AM

Mary your sane, intelligent and wonderful post about thinking old has almost convinced me to say in the future I think Old..In fact it is so good I ask your permission to send it to my good friend Carol who is an ordained minister and the Chaplain at a local senior community. I believe she could and would use it for one of her sermons.

I would also like to share how Carol and I became friends. When we moved to Virginia in 1972 my husband was still in the USAF and the pediatrician at the base hospital was Carol's husband although I didnt know that at the time. It was with great relief when I found this wise and understanding doctor. So you can understand my disappointment when I called for an appointment to find he had left the service. But he was going into private practice locally and my children were some of his first patients.

I am the kind of person who reads a newspaper from front to back. That includes want ads, personal columns, lost and found etc. So I was surprised to find that my new neighbors were my pediatrician and his family. Carol had decided to return to college for her master's degree and was looking for someone to care thier children after school in their home.

The ad ran for over a week and I decided to call and offer to allow her children to stay with me at my home if she couldnt find someone to come to hers. She came by and it was obvious I was older by some 13-14 years. They met in college and married and had their children. Lyn was in some sort of program where the government paid for his education and he gave them a few years of service.

Our relationship progressed rather rapidily to friendship which endures to this day. Each morning we would walk three miles around our neighborhood and we became part of each others social circle. We lunched together, shopped together etc.

Their children stayed with us while they took vacations and ours with them when we took vacations. Age never entered into our relationship we were just friends.

Some of thier friends questioned our friendship and asked her " I know you and Anna are good friends but what do you have in common as she is so much older?"

Carol shared this with me and her reply "Anna is the youngest person I know!"

I suspect if your family and friends were asked about your age they would say "She is the youngest person I know!"

Please may I share your remarks with Carol? She uses some of my essays and poetry in her sermons and I know she would love to use your thoughts as well.

anna at 3:36AM ...I never think of the fact I am a sporadic sleeper as having insomnia but as having opportunities to think, or read, or write in the quietness of my home.

So many wonderful thoughts here!! And I am pleased to hear that some of you folks will share these thoughts with friends outside the Senior Net, many of whom are "younger" citizens. In this way, it will make a difference that we are here.

Robby

Recent travel surveys, from the past fifteen years, show an increasing number of older people are currently licensed to drive. These drivers are behind the wheel more than their counterparts of fifteen years ago. Some believe this demographic change, called the "graying of America," coupled with the increasing mobility of the older population poses a serious highway safety issue. The major concerns are the identification of "high-risk" older drivers and the establishment of licensing guidelines.

Legislative attempts to add to the testing requiremennts for older drivers have met with opposition from senior groups such as AARP. Additional driving tests for the elderly continues to be a highly contoversial topic around the nation. Senior advocacy groups hve pushed state lawmaekers to defeat age-based driving bills in both Florida and Texas.

What should be done about this? Can you speak from personal experience? Do you know of experiences by others that relate to this problem?

Robby

I think everybody here is so bursting with energy it's wonderful to read early in the morning. It's an encouragement to younger people who say: 'I don't every want to grow old'. They don't know what they are missing.

Mary - Your post about 'thinking old' is so heart warming and I want to remember your wise words forever.

Robby – Someone should print these 'old folks' essays and distribute it throughout America to dispel myths about growing 'old'. I would rather say growing 'young' so that when we leave this earth, something very worthwhile can remain for future generations.

Excerpt from this morning's New York Times

Britain's Queen Mother to Leave Hospital Thursday By REUTERS

Filed at 6:23 a.m. ET

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain's Queen Mother will leave the hospital on Thursday, after a blood transfusion for anemia, in time for her 101st birthday celebrations on Saturday, a royal official said.

The Queen Mother, mother to ruling Queen Elizabeth and a symbol of wartime resistance against Nazi Germany, was resting at London's King Edward VII hospital after what aides described as a ``successful'' transfusion.

``The treatment has been completed satisfactorily and Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother will be returning (home) this evening,'' said a spokeswoman at the Queens Mother's residence, Clarence House.

The spokeswoman declined to give further details but British newspapers said the transfusion had taken up to eight hours to complete.

The normally sprightly Queen Mother has kept up a busy round of engagements despite her age -- from visits to flower shows to horse racing events.

Robby - I was asked by the Quebec Government's Auto Insurance Office, here to present myself to my family doctor to verify is I was still apt at driving a car at my age. I was somewhat pleased with how my driver's licence now reads: "No illness to declare".

From now on, I will have to do this every FIVE years. That should take me down the road a bit. My daughter laughed when I said I don't expect to buy another car after this one, since the last one lasted 13 years.

Driving a car takes responsability and I think it's good to verify a driver's ability, but not just because of age, physical limitations that should be the criteria.

Excerpt from this morning's New York Times

The Queen Mother is built of strong, sturdy stock. She also has had many, many advantages that only come to those with wealth and has had the best of medical care. I feel quite certain that she never had to worry about the cost of medication and doctor's bills in the way that some of us do.

What I have been unable to understand is why, when they reach 65, some seniors think all of a sudden that they're truck drivers. The trailer and land I owned near St. Augusine Beach, Florida were behind the KOA, a camping ground for RV's and automobile-pulled trailers on Anastasia Island. The majority of people who stayed at that place were senior citizens. Scarcely a week went by that a couple of them would not knock on my door to see if my home was for sale. It seemed to me as if they were ready to buy a place and stop their travel style of living, but I don't really know. When I see a senior driving one of these vehicles, an alarm goes off in my head, and I drive very cautiously.

I read in another discussion in SeniorNet about a man who was driving a long trip. He took his medication as usual and fell asleep at the wheel. If his wife had not wakened him, there could have been an accident.

I had an accident a couple of years ago when I drove out of the parking lot of the post office downtown and took a left turn to get on the road home. It's a very bad spot, and one I knew was difficult.

I was tired that day and didn't want to take the time to turn right and drive up to another street and down the next block to the highway, so I broadsided a car when it didn't slow down as I pulled out.

Of course, I was driving very slowly and the damage was minimal and no one was injured, but I was left with the thought that if I drive when I'm tired or don't feel just right, I'd darned well better be more cautious than I usually am. It didn't help to be told that there are accidents at that spot nearly every week. I was not as a responsible as I should have been and learned a real lesson that day.

Refresher courses for driving are a very good idea for people who are older, I believe.

Mal

What a lot of posts since I was last in here!

Want to put a word in edgewise about Mal's telling us way back there about the sardine factories closing in Maine. Watched STATE OF THE PLANET for 3 hours on the Discovery channel last night. We have fished out those waters. Seriously. The fish are gone. We are importing from all over the world, because we have fished out our own waters. Scary stuff.

Mal says:--"Refresher courses for driving are a very good idea for people who are older, I believe."

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

I VERY STRONGLY agree, Robby. In fact, I've taken my first of what I hope to be a series of these courses. It taught me a lot.

Ruth Ann

First let me say I think every driver needs refresher courses regardless of age. I have been teased because I am a cautious driver. If I miss my turn I go to the next street ...turn into it and then turn around in a safe area and retrace my steps. I feel it was my fault and I should not cut in front of other drivers just to save myself a few minutes. When I know I am making a left or right turn down the road I stay in whatever lane until I reach that turn. I never weave in and out of traffic to try and save a minute.

All of you who drive must see others do that each day numerous times. Many people just wont move over to allow emergency vehicles by. Thier attitude seems to be I was here first! I live about 4 minutes from the second worse accident intersection in all of Virginia. It is now a monitored intersection and people are reminded a yellow light does not mean HURRY AND GET THROUGH but it a signal to let you know you have tme to stop before it turns red.

Every day I see people of all ages ignoring traffic signals, failing signal turns or showing a right turn signal when they want to make a left, or changing their minds at the last minute. So I think periodic refresher classes should be mandatory.

People of all ages drive when they are overly tired, on medication, have had too much to drink etc. My children used to be upset at me because when I became tired I would stop at the nearest 7-11..let them get a drink and then LOCK the doors and tell them not to get out of the car while I took a nap. 15 min later I would awake and be refreshed enough to resume my travels. I did this even if I was in minutes of my destination. Once I tried making it home and went to sleep at the wheel a block from my home. Fortunately I was driving very slow and woke immediately but it reminded me a car is a place where you need to be at your best.

MaryPage ..I didnt see that show but I did read fishing waters have been over fished since man arrived on earth. We are feeling the effects of that early practice. Now it becomes VERY SCARY to know we are adding to that problem and to me it means if we are affected by what was done thousands of years ago then what kind of legacy will we leave?

Gee you all make me think! I have been accused of thinking too much. There are many who tell me I cant solve the problems of the world. They are right but I believe if there is enough dialogue we may find solutions.

anna who has to go to the dentist....;-((((

Annafair says:--"Gee you all make me think! I have been accused of thinking too much."

Should we close down the discussion?

Robby

I have two friends with whom I will just not ride unless absolutely forced to. Both drive about 5 miles an hour. One, when trying to get on to the interstate, just stops at the top of the entrance to evaluate the situation. The other drives with the right wheels partly off the side of the road. Neither has much sense of direction, and it just drives me wild to ride with them.

I am relying on my daughter to alert me when she thinks I'm not safe on the road as I know that I probably wouldn't recognize it myself. I very seldom even try to drive at night any more, especially if it's raining.

Why close this discussion, Robby, when we've barely begun to scratch
the surface of all that need to be talked about and said?

Mal

For nearly seventy years I drove without an accident. When I began to have difficulty walking my doctor requested a disabled license plate for my car. I used this until I moved to Dallas where it became increasingly difficult to find a parkig space close enough to my destination.I was unable to walk the distance from m car to the entry of the building I needed to enter. One day when I was trying to find a spot I watched a huge "Bubba" in an enormous pick-up truck park in a disabled parking space, jump out anr walk briskly into the store. I was livid. I called him every obcenity I could think of, turned around, and drove back home. This was a large retail establishment with a security service which obviously didn't function at peak efficiency. I called the store to tell them that I had missed my hair appointment thereby costing my operator and them and that I was mad as hell. That evening when Ken came home I handed him the keys to my car, told him to get rid of it, and never drove again. It was a horrible experience to be without wheels. My wings had been clipped and I was forever earthbound. It was very hard to realize that never again could I go anywhere alone. I would have to depend upon someone else to drive me. Awful for a fiercely independent womann. I survived it. There are some awful drivers out there. However I believe that statistically the worst are the teenagers. Elderly people should drive for so long as they are in complete control of their faculties in order to maintain their independence. However, when they begin to get fuzzy or forgetful they should give it up. Such drivers are really time bombs.

The driver courses like "55 Alive" are only so good as their instructers. Some are useful, some a waste of time. Pick and choose.

Be careful out there, Mary

Mal:--I suggested that we close down because we were making Annafair "think too much." You didn't look at the screen hard enough to see my tongue in my cheek.

Robby

Oh, gosh, Robby! I forgot you're "boy with cheek".

Mal

Hi everyone: MARY PAGE-- I'm sorry that I'm not old enough to be your mother. It would have been fun to think of you as one of the daughters I never had. I have enjoyed your posts enormously and agreed with them as well. You'd have been a great addition to my girl children in never-never land. I was simply not destined to have daughters. I know all about how to make boys but no one ever taught me hw to make girls.

t me how to make girls.

I don't know what happens with this thing. I just goofs up occasionally.

ROBBY--My message to young people is "get a good education, the best you can afford". Then don't just rest on your laurels, keep on learning all the rest of your life. Stay curious about everything and persue all things which interest you. There is one other lesson for young ones that I almost forgot, Robby.Somewhere along the way when growing up every one of them must somehow, in some way develope a sense of self-discipline. It is, I believe, perhaps the one most necessary quality for a successful life.

BETTY--Thank you for your kind words. You have been another bright light for me in this group.

KIWI--It is a wonderful thing to survey life with fresh eyes.It does not require just young eyes. It requires eyes that have been used tirelessly and eagerly to learn and understand our changing lives and world. Perhaps we believe the same thing and are just describing it differently

And, now, MAL--I love you too my dear. You know how much you have contributed to my newly discovered enjoyment of life. Mary

Mary W's message to the Young:--"Good education and self-discipline."

How does one obtain self-discipline?

Robby

I am truly upset about the vote against cloning technology for therapeutic research. With stem cell research allowed, there is the chance for cures for Alzheimer's disease, heart disease, rejuvenation of paralyzed muscles, severely injured tissue and organs and certain types of cancer. As I see it, and I may stand alone here, this is a terrible setback for medical research and medicine in the United States.

I'm sure someone will rebut what I say with an ethical argument. My reponse to that is there would be so many restrictions on "human cloning" that such research and use of genetic cures would be safe. Other nations think so. Why don't we?

About self-discipline: Only when a person is given independence and responsibility for him or herself is he or she able to learn self-discipline fully. After making a certain number of self-hurtful mistakes, people avoid what caused the mistake. That I consider a big part of self-discipline.

Some of us who did not have a conventional childhood with a mother at home to look after us had to learn self-discipline and responsibility for ourselves early. Though I envied kids who had homelife with a parent at home, now I think the opposite was not a bad thing.

Mal

Robby I am so relieved to find that lump on my screen was your cheek ! AND I must confess closing a discussion WONT keep me from thinking nor expressing my opinion! My children think I have opinions about EVERYTHING and I confess I do ...when we were first married I would wake my husband up once in awhile around 2 am and tell him I was lonely and wanted to talk! To his great credit he fixed the pillows, got himself a cigarette ( I never smoked) put his arm around me and said what do you want to talk about? We always had the best conversations then about everything in fact when he died the thing I missed most were our conversations> Everything was catalyst to a conversation. We didnt always agree but we had some wonderful debates. WHAT I AM TELLING YOU >>NOTHING DETERS ME

Which is why I enjoy coming here where everyone has an opinion and expresses it ..we dont have to agree ( and how dull that would be if we did). Sometimes I feel we are all around an imaginary table and sharing our thoughts and feelings. For me life doesnt get better than that!!

Now what was the question? Oh the education part is the easiest the self -discipline the hardest. Sometimes life just kicks you in the pants and you HAVE to practice self discipline to survive. If young people have a goal self discipline will come to them or they wont reach the goal ...my tomatoes wont grow or ripen unless I am willing to devote time and effort ..when it is hot I dont want to take the time to water or feed them but I do because I know one day I will see a red tomato on the vine and when I eat it the taste is sublime!

Setting a goal and reaching it gives you the same feeling. It is sublime....

Too much thinking and I am going to go and have a wonderful fresh tomato sandwich...anna

MARYW - I had an experience like the one you describe in an earlier post. A dude in a big pickup parked in what my son calls "the polio parking place". I was disgusted, parked wherever I could, picked up my cane and limped into the large home supply store where I chased him until I caught up with him and told him off. He dashed out of the store, got in his truck and drove out of there as fast as he could. I laughed because he was rugged and at least six feet tall, and I am not at all intimidating in height or appearance. I'll bet you he never parked in one of those places again. I can imagine how it looked to other people in the store when this "cripple" confronted the scofflaw.

Recently I've been to the supermarket a couple of times and there was no designated spot available and no one I knew was in the parking lot to help me. I parked where I could, took my courage in hand, tucked the crutches under my arms and hoped I'd do okay walking a pretty good distance into the store. I know people in there, and so I searched around to find someone who'd help me by getting me a wheelchair and putting the crutches back in my car and one time in the office.

I'd hate to give up my car right now, especially since I live in a country development and the nearest store is 6 miles away. I am also alone with no one but me to depend on for my needs most of the time.

Having spent five months in the house after the fall last October that caused my injuries, now that I at least am able to walk with crutches, I decided I'd get in my car and go and figure out how to get in and out of places when I got there.

People have been wonderful to me as I shop alone in a wheelchair, very helpful and kind. Both women and men have taken things off high shelves that I couldn't reach, and more than once I've been asked by a total stranger if I needed help.

It sure is different from a while ago when my daughter pushed me around the store in the chair. Then people talked to her not me, and acted as if these broken bones and torn up ligaments had affected my brain. When they see me shopping on my own, it's a completely different story.

Mal

I suggest we shut down the "by Alexis de Tocqueville" part of this discussion, and just go right on forever discussing Democracy, America, Democracy in America, things American, and so forth. God willin' and tha crick don't rise, and the boy with cheek has staying power.

Then we could call it the "Democracy in America Graduate Course"!
Would Books and Lit allow us to do this?

Mal

From my experience in the insurance industry, which was eons ago, I learned why elderly drivers as a group did not have very many traffic accidents. As a class of drivers, they tended not to drive when it rained or stormed, drove during the day more than at night, rarely drove under the influence of alcohol, used their seatbelts, took a longer route if it meant going around high traffic areas, were more willing to go the speed limit than the average driver, kept up car maintenance better than average and were rarely in a hurry to get from one place to another. I would guess they also use fewer cell phones when driving.

Betty--

That's so interesting. And fits with my knowledge of the folks my age down here. Altho one of my senior neighbors has just put the tags on what I think is the 3d or 4th new car he's had since they moved here about 3 years ago. Usually this means he wrecked the old one.

I went to a driving improvement class this spring, and was apalled at the stories the "all young' drivers were telling. I asked them where they usually drove, and didn't leave the lot until they were all gone. They couldn't believe I'd had only one accident in 45 years of driving.

Annafair's message to Youth:--"You HAVE to practice self discipline to survive. If young people have a goal, self discipline will come to them or they won't reach the goal."

Are the younger people of today setting goals?

Robby

Research has shown that everyone ages differently and growing old does not necessarily mean a person becomes a safety hazard on the road. Much depends on the person's physical and mental health as the years pass. Studies have shown a direct link between the kinds of driving problems experienced by older motorists and the physical changes that can occur in all older persons.

According to the AARP, about thirty percent of those over age 65 are hearing impaired. The ability to hear is more important to driving than most people realize. Hearing can warn a driver of danger signals like the sound of sirens, horns, or screeching tires. There are occasions when a driver can hear a car but can't see it because of a blind spot. Good hearing helps drivers to be sensitive to what is happening on the roadways around them.

Any memories related to this?

Robby

I hate to put a damper on what Betty said, but my experience with Alcoholics Anonymous in the past 25 years showed me that there are many more drunken senior drivers than most people would believe. At meetings in four different states and more cities than that, the ratio of seniors age 50 and up who had been arrested for drunken driving and forced to attend AA meetings was approximately 45% seniors to 55% youths. In many cases, the alcohol these older people had consumed was put on top of drugs like Valium and Prozac, thus increasing their propensity to be a danger on the road.

The worst case I heard of in this area was when a successful dentist, well known around town and in and out of AA for several years, came home after an evening out drinking and passed out on the divan with a lighted cigarette. His house caught fire, and his sleeping wife did not survive. This man was over 70 at the time. He was badly burned, and as far as I know is finishing (or has finished) up his life in a nursing home.

Alcoholism among seniors is a much greater problem than many people realize.

Mal

Recently, Columbia University's National Center of Addiction and Substance Abuse issued a report indicting that almost 20 percent of elderly women abuse prescription drugs or alcohol. The director and others claim we have an epidemic of alcohol abuse among the elderly.

In fact, more of the elderly misuse prescription medications than alcohol or else combine medications improperly with drinking. As for drinking alone, government surveys have shown that the oldest Americans have the fewest problems of any age group.

Have your physicians warned you about drinking alcohol along with the specific medication you are taking?

Robby

Your point's well taken, Mal...I'll bet there are far more seniors WITH drug and alcohol abuse problems than we might guess. I still think, though, that compared to every other age group, seniors probably do better on the road and have fewer auto accidents than others because so many other factors come into play. Impatient people driving at night in high traffic areas, even when it's raining, etc.,etc. (are usually not seniors and) have the most accidents. Averages are just averages, though, so there is room for a wide range of behavior on an individual level. I also would guess that seniors with alcohol problems are more invisible than others and receive less treatment...am I right on this? An area not to be ignored, for sure.

The increasing prevalence of chronic diseases in the elderly may complicate driving. Arthritis or changes in posture may make it difficult for a senior to operate the vehicle properly. Reduced muscle strength or loss of coordination due to such conditions as Parkinson's disease can also limit driving ability.

Seniors often take several prescriptions at one time and side effects or drug interactions can affect driving. A class of medications commonly taken by the elderly to treat insomnia and anxiety may put them at greater risk for motor vehicle accidents.

Robby

Betty - It seems to me that there are many elderly women who drink alone, perhaps because of social reasons. For many of them, consumption of alcohol by women was not acceptable by the groups they moved in.

There is an older woman in my family, an in-law who drank enormous amounts of wine at home. Her husband, a non-drinker, bought it for her to "soothe her nerves". She went to bed at 8 o'clock each night and drank from the bottle she kept in her room until she either passed out or fell asleep. Interesting that her older sister did the same. Is this tendency genetically caused? I myself think it is.

Publicly, this woman drank very little, and I'm sure no one outside the immediate family was aware that she drank in the way she did. I know in her case that the alcohol was mixed with prescription drugs, lots of prescription drugs. Of course there was no treatment for her because never in her life would she admit that she is an alcoholic or go for treatment.

It's hard to believe she's lived to be 92, but her husband is an enabler and hid or protected her problem and took care of her and excused her behavior. I have a strong feeling that her type of alcohol abuse is not untypical of many, many older women who abuse alcohol.

Drinking alcohol always has been more acceptable for men. They belong to social clubs and organizations, and it is considered normal and natural that they drink at these meetings. I've seen many more older men who were arrested for drunken driving than women, for example, in my "checkered career" as someone who had a problem (has a problem; recovery is a lifetime process, and here goes my anonymity again) and someone who helped others as part of her recovery or tried to. This leads me to believe that men tend to drink to excess outside the home and women don't.

I have been able to help some younger women get into rehab for treatment and go to psychologists for therapy, but any suggestions on my part were always refused by older women.

AA people do not 12 step the opposite sex, so my experience has been with women, and I can't say much about men except what they have said in meetings and confessions to me by a close male family member, a good deal younger than I am. Those things, of course, I would not reveal.

I simply know there is a huge problem with drugs and alcohol among people in the 50 to 90 age group, male and female.

Mal

This is not an area where I am an expert or know about. In my lifetime I have consumed so little alcohol I think I could be considered a tee totaler ...and as my doctor will tell you I take as little of any drug I can get by with.

I have a lot of allergies so I am very cautious when it comes to drugs. Any new drug my doctor wishes to prescribe I insist he look up in his formulary book. Many times it has an ingredient I am allergic to and he tears the prescription up.

My brother in law and sister in law are recovering alcoholics. I think that is the correct term. They have been sober for many years but cannot touch alcohol. Thank goodness they had no children since when they were alcoholic they were not aware of their problem and did many irrational things.

My hearing loss is now profound and is another reason I am a cautious driver since I cannot hear the high pitch of sirens. The old ooga ooga sound I could hear and could now but not the new digital sounds. I have a light hooked up to my phone to alert me when it rings. I also have a security system since I cant hear the doorbell although it is a special one for the hearing impaired. My dog knows I cant hear and barks when the doorbell rings. A lot of organizations have computer access and that has been a blessing for me. I had a tax problem a few years ago and was able to resolve it by "talking" through the computer with the office. The lady who took care of it for me was so helpful and kind. I also use on line banking since telephone access to my account is frustrating. Sometimes I am not sure hearing people can appreciate my using the computer. I talk to my family with my computer and of course here in D in A I am blessed with each of you ....

anna in Va

My father is an alcoholic and still is. He used to drive when under the influence and I believe he still does. I have not seen my father for 10 years as he is not a very nice person. He has lots of money but has cut all of us out of his will except our brother because we asked him to apologise for our awful childhood. He told us he would do it all again and did not see that he did anything wrong. He destroyed our trust. Alcohol dependancy is so destructive to the family unit.

Now Robby you asked about young people and goals. My children have had goals. They have all reached them. One daughter has only 9 weeks until she graduates from Auckland University (Best one) with an A average. She leaves for the UK on 16 November to further her career. This girl has worked full time in demanding positions. She is currently an I/T Personnel Consultant. She has only taken two more years than normal to complete this degree. I take my hat off to her. What self discipline. The last thing on her 5 year plan which was recorded on her PC is the flight out of Auckland Airport. I do believe our home philosophy of self discipline and work ethics has helped her to achieve this. Her present CEO chose her because she came from this background.

My eldest sons goal was to own his own home at age 20. He did this without a cent of money from us. I did however seek out the site for him and negotiate the price. The company I was a builders consultant for built the home which he lived in happily for 8 years. This boy worked 7 days a week in his trade for three years to do this. I helped to negotiate the finance but did not go guarantor.

My next sons aim was to build his own home and be freehold before the age of 30. He was. It was a very nice large home designed by him also. He found a site no one wanted because it was too difficult to design a home for. He worked out a three level home design and got all the planning permission etc. He sold it a year ago for a handsome profit and built another home on the same type of unwanted site which was completely freehold. He is now in the UK working as a builder for a very handsome weekly contract price.

Yes I think young people still dream and make goals.

Carolyn

But I am pleased to say that Annafair (who sat next to me at last year's Virginia Tea Party) could hear me easily. She occasionally had problems with others a ways away and I repeated their comments but she seemed to hear me easily.

So you see, Anna, you are still part of our world and we are looking forward to seeing you at this year's Virginia Tea Party.

Robby

Yes, I think young people still dream and make goals.

But it appears to me (and perhaps others here), Carolyn, from hearing your relationship with your children, that a positive influence by their mother made a big difference.

On the other hand, you did not have a similar positve influence by your father, yet here you are, active in Senior Net, and obviously being a worthy citizen.

Where do you folks think the influence of parents fit into children meeting their goals?

Robby

All of the income earned by the American labor force is not used solely for its own consumption. Besides saving, they are also responsible for two groups of dependents. Children under age 15 can not take care of themselves, and the elderly over age 65, once retired, look to the current labor force to help provide the security they need.

The labor force has only so many resources and thus there is competition between the two groups of dependents. The relative economic status has changed over time and there are those who say that it has been shifting to the benefit of the elderly.

The elderly have three sources of support -- themselves, workers who vote for the elderly they would otherwise have to support, and workers voting for their own future. Children have only their parents voting for them and as a whole they are not a very politically active group.

Are America's children being cheated by the elderly?

Robby

MaryPage - Was that you who suggested that this discussion be moved here? What a good idea. Perhaps A de T might become obsolete with everybody around to challenge him. I am glad that we can still air our ideas for a while though.

Robby – I must admit that here in Quebec, we have the highest suicide rate among the elderly and TEENS, statistics say. How sad.

A research Group attached to the Royal Victoria Hospital of Montreal found that: "drug-related illness is the primary reason for 1 to 5 % of medical visits, three to 23% of hospital admission and one in 1,000 deaths in the general population." "Of elderly people, 78% have at least one chronic disease and 30% have three or more".

A large number of elderly don't take their medication according to prescription. This study says that seniors need to question their doctors more on their prescription but seniors don't: "my doctor knows best and he will tell me what I need to know". But what the elderly needs to 'understand' is another thing. The elderly takes the prescription home, but too often doesn't fill it. Or they forget what the doctor told them how to take it. Since they are not about to learn all the interaction between this pill and that one, they sometimes think they its OK to just take a bunch of them and swallow them all at once. Or, they take too many because they have visited more than one doctor and they 'hide' things from their doctor. Who is honest enough to tell their doctor that they 'drink' to excess? The doctor cannot just guess that.

When we see this, it is not surprising that some elderly fall asleep behind the wheel, or have poor judgment when they are driving. The medical profession might not be tuned enough to the problem of drug interaction and driving and if they should not be made responsible for their patient's misuse of drugs. But, whose responsability is it? I believe that if an elderly is not doing what he/she is supposed to do to be as well as possible, the family should be involved and warn the doctor about their parent's limitation and driving a car. When a senior visits their doctor, perhaps they should suggest that they bring a close relative too so instructions be better understood when that is possible.

Good morning, everyone. My daughter is in the hospital having surgery at this moment. It's interesting that her father owns a business which makes high-powered water jet surgical instruments. That's not the kind of surgery my daughter is having today, though.

Our kids had the advantage of a father who is a scientist, very much left-brained and brilliant in whatever he did. He also is a musician, a fine pianist. His work kept him away from the home and family a good deal of the time. Despite this, our two sons and daughter have enormous respect for him. So, in fact, do I, even though we have been divorced for 26 years.

As you know, I, as their mother, am very right-brained, artistic and musical. Our kids were raised by parents who talked science, math, music and art at the dinner table, as well as politics and world affairs. It was not unusual for musicians to come into the house and play chamber music with my former husband, and there was not a minute of the day when there was not the sound of music in the house.

All three of our kids show the effect of the environment in which they grew up and the effect of their genetic heritage. All are artistic and have a real interest in science. They also show the effects of certain tensions that arose because there were such personality and other left brain-right brain differences between their father and me.

It is hard for me to know about parental influences on me, since I was taken from my mother at the age of 7 and never really knew my father. The people who raised me both worked, and I was pretty much on my own from the age of 11 on. I see family likenesses with my brother and two sisters with whom I have been close despite our split family after our mother died.

There are all kinds of influences on children. Teachers I had in school and for music influenced me a great deal, as did an elderly mathematics tutor I had once when, because of an injury and surgery, I had to miss a lot of school.

I am not sure I understand your question about the elderly cheating children today, Robby.

Mal

Mal and Carolyn are both right on about alcohol.

Alcohol has been the big spoiler, destroyer, hateful thing in my life, as well. Like Anna, I drink very little. It was dearly loved family members who were afflicted. I went to Al-Anon for years, and yes, there are more alcoholics, both using and recovering, out there than you know. Bushels of them! They are all around you. They are one reason I am home by five o'clock every day, summer light or no. They are one reason I will make every attempt not to drive on weekends. They are there, and alcohol is JUST as deadly a drug and addiction as any other.

Thinking about your daughter and wishing her well, Mal.

Eloise calls to our attention that "here in Quebec, we have the highest suicide rate among the elderly and TEENS."

This is true across the nation. Among the elderly, it is primarily white men.

My question, Mal -- should some of the money which is now being spent on behalf of the elderly be diverted to the teens?

Robby

There have been many times in my life when I have contemplated suicide because the physical and/or mental pain I had was more than I thought I could bear. One of my deepest regrets is that I was not given the gift of therapy with a good psychologist at a much earlier age than when I finally went on my own for such help.

The fact of a life-threatening illness when I was a child, being removed from my mother, her death and numerous other things that happened to me during a very difficult childhood made me a prime candidate for therapy.

There was not just that, there was the pain I felt because I was physically different because of an illness over which I had no control. There were cruel jibes from my peers as a child and thoughtless remarks by adults about my handicap that caused me much grief and pain.

In "my day" mental illness was to be feared. Psychiatrists and psychologists were "kooks" who didn't know what they were talking about. It was similar to there not being any special facilities for handicapped people until fairly recently. It was as if the mentally ill and handicapped were supposed to be limited and kept hidden, away from the rest of society.

There came a time in my marriage when I had three kids, two hands and could not run. My scientist husband felt that psychology is an "inexact science" and told me any problems I had, like drinking too much from time to time, could be solved by "will power". He was wrong.

If there are teenagers and elderly who are forced to the thought of suicide because of an inability to cope with problems and a difficult life, there should be therapy for them immediately. Many, many crimes in this country are caused by mentally ill people who need help. Why don't we help people in this way?

Based on a lot of experience, my opinion is that a mental examination should be performed just as routinely as a physical one is because there is not a single one of us who has not been mentally ill in one way or another at one time or another in their lives.

Mal

Her name doesn't seem to show but the cake and congratulations above come from Ginny, Host of Books and Literature.

Mal, you know very well I agree with you but I will allow others to react to your comments.

Robby

Robby - Perhaps it is the breakup of family units that is responsible for suicide among the elderly. In my age group in Quebec, we had large families but still, many elderly women are in a Senior's Home among people she does not know. Every moment of this woman's life had been spent within a large family, as a child, as a mother, then when her husband dies, she is suddenly cast aside among strangers at her 'advanced' age. She is not allowed to work as everything is taken care of for her. No family member to talk to. She is lonely among lots of people. She feels totally useless because all her life, work had been her pleasure.

I think I would go bezerk if I could not use the energy I still have working.

Why should funds be taken 'from' the children's cohort to be directed towards the elderly. Could there not be a better solution?

Ginny, thank you for baking that cake. You express what we all feel here and thank you Robby for allowing us to express ourselves and for putting up with me. I am still trying to learn how to say things, not being all the time successful.

There are no simple answers to complex problems. It is complex
problems which bring thoughts of suicide. This is why I believe
therapy is so absolutely essential for people who consider it.

Mal

I did not get therapy til I was in my fifties. The first group therapy I went to was free and run by my church. The counsellor was our very gifted Pastors wife. It was 12 steps but so much more. It covered the drug and alcohol abuse as well as abandonment and physical and mental abuse. It became so involved it lasted 18mths. This was the first time I looked at myself and realised I was a dysfunctional person. I had lived life as best as I could but my thinking was very colored by my experiences as a child.

This group gave me the courage to seek help with my anxiety which I had battled with since the age of 10. I lived a successful life. I did well in all the positions I held but every day of my life was a living hell. No one could see it and I could not speak of it. In latter years I lost my support person my late husband to cancer this has made life very difficult for me. I have learned ways to cope so that I can live on my own but I still have that battle every day.

If my problems had been treated as a child I may have been cured. Today we still have this attitude in society that mental illness is shameful. Well I have a diagnosed mental illness. I dont publicise it as people would treat me differently. I hope none of you will think differently of me because I have shared this with you.

You cant see mental illness like you can a physical disability but it is every bit as disabling. My hope is that society will one day take this branch of medicine every bit as seriously as they do other branches. Mental illness is treated as a poor sister in the medical world and not enough research or treatment for the sufferers is available. These sufferers are amongst the most vulnerable in society. I can remember watching the police shoot an obviously Psychotic man on TV before my very eyes. There was no Psychologist on the scene to talk to the man he was put down just as if he were a mad dog. I sobbed uncontrollably. I have never forgotten it. It has happened three times since in the last three years.

I hope what I have shared here will give some of you food for thought.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I extend my hand to you over the thousands of miles between
the east coast of the United States and New Zealand in understanding
and friendship.

Mal

Thank you Mal

Carolyn

Oh! Carolyn how sad for you to go through that and wonderful that you could confide yourself here in us who are your friend. It's all true society, (us) don't understand the anguish, the pain of mental suffering. We (I) put it under the rug, try not to look at it in the face, are (am) afraid of it. I should have sought help after my husband died, I was so disfunctional it was pathetic and made my own children suffer even more after they lost their father 30 years ago.

Here you can talk Carolyn and nobody will stop you. I am still afraid to say what's inside. I don't even know what it is!!! Know that you are loved and respected my friend.

Eloïse

While some of my patients are teenagers and in their twenties, most of them are in their 40's and 50's, and a few past that.

Robby

America's non-metropolitan population has proportionately more elderly people than metropolitan areas. In 1997, 18 percent of the rural populoation was elderly compared to 15 percent of the urban population. This was due to a population aging in place, the out-migration of the younger populations to cities in search of better employment, and in some counties, the in-migration of elderly in search of a retirement destination.

While the proportion of elderly population in non-metropolitan counties was greater than the proportion in metropolitan counties in 1997, many of the elderly residents in non-metropolitan counties were located in urban areas because of better access to services such as health care.

What is the percentage of elderly in your area?

Robby

100% rye cheer en mah ahpotmint!

Very few. I'm probably the only one over 50 in this
development of relatively expensive houses.

Mal

The 2 sisters who live across the hall from me, neither of whom has ever married, are 89 & 97 years old. They still go to work 3 days a week, all dressed up with hair curled and lipstick applied carefully. They have been doing volunteer work at Anne Arundel Hospital for 26 years! They plan to retire this fall because the hospital is moving and they don't want to drive that far! The 97 year old has quit driving, so the 89 year old has to do it all.

I mean, I am the YOUNGSTER here! I bounce outside and bring their groceries in for them, literally skipping up the steps!

I live in a two storey duplex home area of Montreal and my neighbors are somewhere between 25 and 50 some with pre teens we saw growing up. Its a very stable area from where no one seems to ever move. Italians, French, Protugese, Vietnamese. We are the only ones who speak English in this area. 6 families out of 7 have three generations living next door or above a member of their family. I never see alcoholics roaming around, never saw a crime against a person being committed. I walk home in the evening from the metro alone sometimes for 10 minutes. I was never accosted.

I must be blind or what!

Mental health was mentioned earlier. From 15 to 25 percent of elderly people in the United States suffer from signficant symptoms of mental illness. The highest suicide rate in America is among those aged 65 and older. This group represents approx 12 percent of the total population, but accounts for 20 percent of suicides nationwide. Worldwide, elderly people lead the World Health organization's list of new cases of mental illness.

Many of the nation's elderly are reluctant to seek psychiatric treatment which could cure or alleviate their symptoms and return them to the previous level of functioning. Many older people don't understand mental illneses or acknowledge that they even exist. They feel ashamed of their symptoms or else feel that they are an inevitable part of aging.

Medicare, which sets the standard for health care insurance coverge, has traditionally discriminated against psychiatric care by offering a low level of benefits. Elderly people, their loved ones and friends and often their own doctors fail to recognize the symptoms of treatable mental illness in older people. They blame them on "old age" or think nothing can be done to alleviate the problem.

How can we go about improving this current state of affairs? What specifically should we do?

Robby

Robby, these suicides among the elderly; how many could be attributed to the fact that some have been living in pain, usually with cancer, with virtually no chance of a cure? How often is it done (suicide) just to end the pain and find relief? We know a doctor can't assist anyone in dying, ala Dr. Kevorkian, so what other way is there? Or would you call the fact that one does not want to live that way a mental illness?

An excellent question, Lou. Could wanting to die be considered rational thinking?

Robby

It is not irrational to want relief from pain. What seems irrational to me are restrictions which prevent doctors from prescribing enough pain-relieving medicine, narcotic or not, to people who are suffering because of an incurable illness. To say the patient "might become addicted" -- that's irrational. To want to hasten death that is imminent because of such suffering is not irrational, in my opinion.

If older people are suffering emotional and mental pain which makes them want to die to relieve that pain, medication should be prescribed to relieve that pain. It should be accompanied by therapy. If elders and others refuse that therapy, there's not much one can do.

I've maintained for a long, long time that attitudes about mental illness must be changed. If a campaign to educate people about mental illness took place that was like the campaign against smoking in the U.S., it would help relieve many severe problems, including alcoholism and illegal drug use which could possibly lead to crime.

Mal

Robby that is a good question and one I would think might apply to some. My husband suffered for over two years with cancer in a terminal stage. Yet it was not a sad thing for him. It was harder for me because I saw what he didnt, he was losing ground by bits and pieces which also changed his personality. Until the last week of his life he dressed himself and came downstairs every day. The last week he stayed in our room and died in his bed. So many people came to visit him it was like a party and in fact the first day he stayed upstairs we did have a party in our bedroom. We had been invited to help celebrate a nieghbors birthday. It was a small group and we had the party in our bedroom One night 60 people from our church including the choir he had sung with for 20 years and they sang for him and he even joined in as much as he could. I share this because if anyone could have an easy death he did. He went quickly the final night in his sleep. But we arent all that fortunate.

When I was growing up most of the people I knew died at home. Hospitals were for people who had hope of getting well. Many people are now outliving their children and their spouse is gone and no one to give them that tender care. I wonder who will be there for me? Fortunately my immediate family members died from heart attacks. My doctor worries that will happen to me. I tell him that is the way I want to go!

Keeping active ...a few years ago some friends who had moved away came to visit. While here they visited the mother of another good friend who had been persuaded to sell her home and move into a senior complex. It offered meals, nurses on duty, activities etc. Before her entry to this place she maintained her home and led a very active life. A year after she moved she was using a walker and had become sedentary. She herself said she should have stayed in her home where she had to do all the work as the activity kept her mobile.

Eighteen months ago I became clinically depressed. It was so unlike me but my oldest daughter recognized the symptoms and my doctor prescribed a low dose of Zoloft which I took for six months and it helped immeasureably. Since I have never taken anything for depression I was a bit reluctant. I do think older people were raised to think it was a weakness to take medicine for our minds. My family said Mom if you had infection that could be cured by medication would you take it? With a yes answer they said so what is the difference? They were right.

Growing older is not for sissies! Someone said that and it has merit. By the way 30 years ago when I moved to this neighborhood it was one of young couples or at least couples with young children ( like my husband and myself) Most of the people are still here. Our children have moved away but we stay. Even though the homes were originally 2500 sq ft we have all added to our space. And most of the people that move in now are seniors. The pool association is so much smaller and are hard pressed to get enough young people to man a swim team. The young people that use it are the grandchildren of members.It is a lovely area and although we are now near everything it is quiet because of the location and the owners walk around the neighborhood at all hours.

Seems I have tried to address every post so I need to get with it as I am having a small dinner party for a friends birthday. We are having steak, stuffed baked potatoes, a medley of fresh vegetables, tomatoes from my very small garden, mushrooms stuffed with crab meat and last night I made a Black Forest Cake. The honoree's choice. SO I HAVE TO GET WITH IT <>>But I always have to have my daily Fix from this site...anna

Anna's reluctance to take medicine for depression is fairly typical among older people, I think.

There has always been an element of shame, guilt or fear about mental illness, less so today than in the past, but these attitudes still exist and are part of what I'd like to see changed.

At my own request, I have been hospitalized twice for depression. The first time followed a move of my family from the east coast to a midwestern state where I knew no one. I was exhausted and mostly alone helping my kids adjust to the move, since my husband travelled a great deal for his job. The youngest of the three kids was 4.

The second hospitalization came when I sold my Florida trailer and moved here to NC. Once again I had become exhausted and was living alone among strangers in a place that was too difficult physically for me.

An interesting thing happened during the second hospital stay. A day or two after I entered the hospital, I was standing in my room talking to a doctor. The knee lock of my leg brace broke, and so did my leg when I went down to the floor. (The only working muscles in my left leg are in my toes. None in my knee are functional.) The minute my leg broke, my depression went away. I was so focused on my leg that my mind stopped stewing over what had been bothering me. From then on I refused medication the rest of the time I was in the hospital.

I have learned from these experiences and know and recognize what leads me into depression and the symptoms of it. If it should ever go beyond what I can change and control, I would immediately seek help.

I realized some years ago that I used alcohol to relieve pain. Many people do. Now I get myself to a doctor for medication that reduces and relieves the pain, whether it is physical or mental.

Mal

Annafair - Your life, as I see it, is like a fairy tale, including your depression and your husband's last breath in your arms in your own bedroom. No, getting older is not for sissies, that's for sure. It's Normal to be depressed after your spouse dies. Its part of coping with the death of someone who has shared your life for around 5 decades.

Your last sentence with the description of your menu for tonight and the 'DAILY FIX' thing tells me that as far as I'm concerned, you're OK. My life was so different, like night and day and I say now without blinking an eye, I'm happier now than I have ever been. I have learned a lot since I was so-called young.

Mal - I agree with you.

Robby - Do you really think that more could be done to relieve the depression of getting old?

I asked my entourage about what they think the future had in store for them. My 48 year-old English student, said she was optimistic and that science would find more cures for illnesses, that there will be more 'clean' air and water, that seniors should not give up on the younger generation, that their values and advice were respected and admitted she was wrong when she said she didn't need her parent's recommendations after she was 20. This woman has no children.

Eloise asks:--"Do you really think that more could be done to relieve the depression of getting old?"

I don't believe there is any such thing. I believe there is Clinical Depression and I believe there is such a thing as becoming older, but the two don't necessarily go together. I am going on 81 and I don't believe I have depression and I treat patients in their 30's who have depression.

Robby

Part of the means I use to avoid depression as I grow older is to stay as busy as I possibly can. It's not necessary to clean several rooms in a house, cook a meal for a family of six, mow lawns and do other things like that to stay busy. We have computers, and any number of things can be done on them, from publishing electronic magazines as I do to making cards, arranging a photograph collection, researching geneaology and any number of other subjects, even reading books and listening to music online. The world's largest library, encyclopedia and art gallery and hundreds of newspapers, not to mention chat rooms and interactive games like bridge and chess, are at our fingertips. If an older person examined all of those, he or she would be so interested and busy that there would be no room for depression.

Mal

Robby - What I meant was that there are so many people who think that getting old is depressing and they can't stop mentioning it. (Alhzeimer) (I'm forgetful now, I'm getting old) (What can you do, at my age) etc.

My sister who married a man from Brittany after the war went to live in France. She became clinically depressed and after 8 years there, her husband decided to sell everything in Paris and bring her back home to Montreal. She recovered, then HE became depressed and criticized everything in the book about America. He never liked living here. My sister is now sorry that they came back. Cultural ties are so strong and you don't break them easily even after years of separation. Are the ties to one's country genetic or can you break away by sheer willpower?

The ties to one's country are not genetic. We are influenced by a combination of our genes and our environment, part of which is the nation in which we grew up.

Dementia, which is characterized by confusion, memory loss, and disorientation, is NOT an inevitable part of growing old. In fact, only 15 percent of older Americans suffer from this condition. Of that number, an estimated 60 percent suffer from Alzheimer's disease, a progressive mental deterioration for which no cause or cure has been found. (When I diagnosis someone with Alzheimer's, the proper term I put in the chart is DAT (Dementia of the Alzheimer's type.)

The other 40 percent of all dementias can be caused by:--

Complications of chronic high blood pressure, blood vessel disease or a previous stroke, Deterioration is in steps rather than in a steady progression.
Parkinson's disease, which generally begins with invluntary and small tremors or problems with voluntary movements. Dementia may occur when the disease is severe or very advanced.
Huntington's disease, a genetic disorder that begins in middle age and has symptoms of changed personality, mental decline, psychosis and movement disturbance.
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, thought to be caused by a viral infection leading to rapid and progressive dementia.

Nobody ever dies from old age. We all die from a specific ailment.

Robby

What makes me think this gathering is similar to group therapy is the gradual establishment of trust. We only begin to tell the most private, personal information when there is a sense of safety or trust. Yesterday's several posts of private information, even Eloise's "too afraid" non-telling telling, indicate that a group has a culture (our group has a personality!!) and that trust has been established.

Robby, don't you find it interesting that just after you introduced the idea that we begin to wrap up this discussion, the discussion did anything but begin to wind down, including offered suggestions on ways to continue......and some beautifully written, very private posts. Within psychologists' speak, there is a well-worn saying, an image jokingly and lovingly called "hand on the doorknob issues." When a client doesn't want to leave at the end of the hour, she stands with her hand on the doorknob and discloses very interesting and serious information.

Robby, your resource materials are wonderful and your choices of what to present for discussion always amaze me. My hand is on the doorknob as I tell you how much I appreciate the hard work you've done this year and that I wish you would keep doing it. Maybe it isn't fair to you to say that we'd like to continue. If you are interested in continuing, how would you structure it?

Sending this discussion out of Books would be very different than keeping it here.....we are readers who discuss topics. That's my guess about the quality discussions in the Books part of SeniorNet (a little prejudice here).

There are essays and editorials in on-line newspapers (Washington Post, New York Times) that present many current and not necessarily political topics on democracy in America. That could be one source of discussion material, if this discussion continues.

-------------------------------------------

Carolyn, of course I see you differently now....I feel closer to you....and won't be able to agree or disagree with you without considering the closer feeling. I love it when a group has enough safety (trust) for people (you and Mal, yesterday) to say anything you want to.

Speaking of which...did anyone else notice that "young" in yesterday's posts was associated with NOT receiving psychological help, and "older" was associated with finally getting assistance? Youth is far overrated.

betty

Yes the doctor legally can, in the state of Oregon, perhaps soon in the state of Maine, in the Netherlands, and perhaps elsewhere.

There may be few doctors who are willing to do so, but that's another problem. Those who are considering do-it-yourself suicide need only contact the Hemlock Society, which has many state chapters and is headquartered in Denver. And if doctors and hospitals ignore your do-not-resuscitate orders, and you are a Hemlock member, Hemlock will (if asked) intervene on your behalf.

How ironic that Timothy McVeigh and other vicious folks go to their deaths in the most gentle manner imaginable. First they get a drug that renders them unconscious. Then they get a drug that stops their breathing. Then they get a drug that stops their heart. It's over in a few minutes. But a suffering patient who wants to die cannot, in almost all jurisdictions, legally get the tender closure that McVeigh got.

Betty - You have a lot of insight. No, I won't tell what I don't know, but if I could pinpoint the cause of my 'past' problems, I might, but I would prefer to do that face to face. A computer is too cold even if the people posting are warm and caring. I need a person, not a machine. My past is not a secret. My children know everything about me. After my husband died I had 6 children between 12 and 20 and I should have consulted. That's what I wanted to say to Carolyn.

Isn't it fun that we can talk almost 'like if' we were in a living room with no one else listening to what we are saying?

Eloise:--Your term "living room" is exactly the type of ambience I've tried to create ever since we began. As we continue to exchange thoughts, we imagine that we are face to face, laughing together, talking seriously together, and respecting each other in every way.

When we hold that image in our heads, it becomes easy to conduct a discussion group.

Robby

A computer may be cold, but I feel anything but cold in this
discussion and the Writers Exchange WREX discussion. You
are my friends, as are the writers of WREX. For someone who
is as alone and housebound as I am and others like me are,
including Betty, the computer is a godsend which has changed
many lives in a very positive way.

Mal

Rambler, what you said about the way Timothy McVeigh died as compared to the prolonged suffering of
innocent people who would find release from that suffering in death is something I've thought about for a long time.

Thank you for saying it here.

Mal

Elderly people may become forgetful, disorientd, or confused becaue they have developed a quickly reversible condition that is totally unrelated to dementia. For example, drug interactions or overdoses, poor diet and other physical or mental problems cause symptoms that mimic dementia. Depression often resembles dementia in that its victims withdraw, cannot concentrate and appear confused.

These pseudodementias can be reversed when their causes are diagnoses and treated. It is therefore important that a physician first complete a thorough medical evaluation. The evaluation can differentiate true dementia from factors that could mimic the condition such as:--

1- Improper use of medications
2 - Malnutrition caused by poor eating habits.
3 - Diseases of the heart or lungs.
4 - Diseases of the adrenal, thyroid, pituitary or other glands.

The body-mind connection cannot be overemphasized.

Robby

Thanks, Robby. That's the kind of information we all should know.

Mal

Modern medicine has enabled the majority of older people to spend their later years in relatively good health. Regrettably, this is not the case for many elderly patients who require daily care at home or in nursing facilities. Chronic illness often makes these waning years the most difficult of all for both patients and their caregivers.

In this 21st Century, more than 12 million Americans, mostly elderly, need some type of long-term care. Long-term care is not one unified program, but many different support services aimed at helping people who have lost some capacity for self-care due to a chronic condition or illness.

Such patients require the help of others to perform what are referred to as "activities of daily living," which include eating, bathing, dress and moving from bed to chair, etc. This can be a very expensive proposition. A year at a nursing home or three daily shifts of qualified home care workers can easily cost $50,000 or more.

What is your experience in meeting the challenge of caring for the elderly?

Robby

It cost $80,000 a year to give my mother round-the-clock care in her own home for four years. Fortunately, she had the money. I was not willing to put her in a nursing home, but near the end, I had to consider it because the money was running low. Until the day she died, I (only child and heir) thought of the money as hers alone: As long as she lives, spend it on her! And we did it!

We hold our heads high. But who are we to feel proud?. What about all the folks in similar situations who never had the resources we enjoyed?

It is ironic to me for my husband to die at home I was required to have several things. One a living will which we both had excuted at an earlier time, second I had to post on the back of our bedroom door a RED caution poster that said DO NOT RESUCITATE and I was supposed to put on his wrist a bracelet with his name and information as they do in a hospital. I did put the poster on the door but I never put the bracelet on. Besides all of that two different doctors and one nurse called me to tell me it would be best to have him in the hospital. For some reason they thought I would not be strong enough to see this through. I kept telling them NO ONE WOULD CALL 911. If I had not been determined to allow him what he wished and what I wanted I think I could have been intimidated enough to place him in the hospital.

When he could no longer go downstairs the doctor used a morphine pump to ease his pain. Interestingly enough Medicare refused to pay for the pump ( at least in the beginning) When I called to see why the 218 dollar bill was being denied the person I spoke to said they had no way of knowing he needed it. I get angry just remembering that conversation. I told him the doctor prescribed it and a nurse put it in. My final question was If I had put him in the hospital and the bill had been thousands of dollars you would have paid it and you dont want to pay 218 ? In any case I refused to pay it and although it took a year for the company to get thier money they did pay the full amount.

I think of families who would prefer to have their loved one at home but would not have the strength to fight the advice of the medical profession. Two of my children moved in that last week to help me and each day the other two were there as well. Even now when I recall the kindness of neighbors and friends who left hot ham biscuits at my door in the mornings and brought meals and who came and visited him the tears come. I had to stop here as the memory is sharp.

Re the remark about Timothy McVeigh ....I hadnt given that much thought but it is true that people who need that final help whose only fault is that in a society obessed with prolonging death for those who would welcome an end to their pain we are cruel instead of kind.

Both my father and my father in law died at home because their doctors ( how times have changed) encouraged us to allow them that right. One of my sisters in law on the other hand had no one to be there for her ( my brother having preceded her in death) died alone in a hospital hooked up to every concieveable machine. Her petite body swollen with fluids so she looked like a football player dressed in full gear.

In an earlier post I mentioned that when I was growing up most people died in the home. In fact many of my older family members and neighbors were waked in the home. And as a child I always accompanied my parents to the wake whether in the home or the funeral home. Unless the person had died in an accident or was very young there was an acceptance that one doesnt see now. The wakes were really not the solemn events I attend now. There was an acceptance and in some ways and I know this may sound wierd but there was a celebration of life.

Just thinking at 4:30 am and grateful for everyone who visits here and shares their thoughts and feelings so openly. And grateful for Robby and his sharing his expierence. anna

Annafair shares her intimate memories and then tells us "I had to stop here as the memory is sharp."

I wonder sometimes if the younger generation realizes that these traumatic experiences in life remain with us. I spoke with a 17 year-old patient not too long ago who said "you don't understand" because I was too old to know the experiences he was undergoing. I reminded him that I was 17 years old at one time and shared with him that I could still bring easily to mind the death of my mother when I was nine years old.

There are exceptions, of course, and many participants here tell of the wonderful relationship with their children and grandchildren. In general, however, is there such a thing as a generation gap? Is it a case of "the twain shall never meet?" If we do, indeed, have a message for the younger generation (and what is it?), is that message falling on deaf ears? Or not?

Robby

Annafair – What I wanted to say before about the computer is that when I read your post, I really wanted to touch your hand to express my sympathy and look at you but since I can't, I hope to be able to say it with words. I don't have all of Mal's ability to do that. I think it's very unfortunate that we have to fight the medical profession when it comes to dying with dignity. When my BIL died, my sister had to argue with the doctor about that. It’s a good thing that all her children were there too. Sheer number made them back off. You also had the courage to fight for your convictions, but those who don't have family support have to rely on the doctors to decide when to turn off the respirator.

Rambler – That is the proof that your mother brought you up well.

Robby – I only have one brother and two sisters alive now out of 6. The four of us are extremely active and fit but one day we will need someone to see us through our final years, months, days. We all have families who care. I think we are the exception but since you are in that profession, perhaps you could tell us the proportion of elderly who don't supportive families.

I used to say that my mother died of old age, but I guess I was wrong. I didn't think that when the heart stops beating, at an advanced age of 95, it was a disease, but simply it just gave up. When my brother died, who had no other family but us, his three sisters, were with him every day for a week until his death.

I don't think that the message we are sending to younger generations falls on deaf ears. We don't have to preach to speak up, our life is the message.

"Our life is the message."

-- Eloise

Somehow I got unsubsribe to this list... By my own hand, I am sure ...

Too many gone by to play "Catch Up", so I will have to begin anew..

8:)
dapph
Click here to chat about CourtTV on Seniornet.
Click Here to get to the CourtTV website.

Dapphne:--It's easy to catch up. Just tell us what the message is that we "older" people "are giving" or "should give" to the younger generation.

Robby

More than 65 percent of all community-based elder care is provided by unpaid sources, usually family and friends. Despite the sensational media attention to cases of elder abuse and abandonment, most Americans care devotedly and responsibly for their relatives or friends in need. Most of the remaining 35 percent of elder care is provided by nursing homes, assisted living residences or paid caregivers at home.

Robby

I've spent a good bit of time in my life as caregiver. During the last five years I lived in Florida I was sole support (on $766 a month) and caregiver for my elder son who was brain-injured in a terrible automobile accident a few years before. This left him with what doctors called "undetermined schizophrenia" and subject to psychotic episodes.

Caring for people who have a serious mental illness is not easy, especially by an untrained person. We'd be having a perfectly intelligent conversation (he is extremely intelligent), and I'd suddenly realize nothing we were saying made any sense at all because he had gone into a psychotic episode.

It's extremely difficult to watch a close relative in such a condition, especially when the condition is so bad that you have to sign the necessary papers to put him in the hospital because he is incapable of knowing whether he is sick or well.

At the same time I was doing this, I was caregiver for an elderly man, who was also a sick friend, so I could augment my income. I was released from the caregiving job for my son when he married a woman who wanted to take care of him. The elderly man died.

At the end of that period in my life I can truthfully say I was close to being completely exhausted. Those five years are a big part of what led to my being hospitalized for depression after I moved to NC. I moved up here because I wanted at last to do something for myself. At age 61 I had every intention of going to the University of North Carolina to work for a Ph.D. The bout with depression and the broken leg, and various physical complications because of that, changed those plans. I ended up becoming an electronic publisher.

Luckily, throughout the time I was caring for my son and the elderly man, I was counselled by a very good psychologist. I'm convinced that his help was what kept my physical and mental health intact. It took me three years to recover, though, and get my own thinking straightened out.

I have carried a Living Will in my wallet for over 20 years. I have also told my kids that if I am so sick that I require great amounts of care, I want to go to a facility where that care will be given to me by strangers who are paid to do the job. I do not ever want my kids to go through what I went through during the time I cared for my son.

I have been hospitalized enough in my life -- 13 operations, numerous broken bones and other injuries and also spent several weeks in a nursing home after a muscle transplant when I was 10 years old -- to know that there are caring, wonderful people in hospitals who work hard to help people. I'd rather be cared for by them than ever be a burden on anyone in my family.

The love and sacrifice of my family will never restore my health or give me life if I am terminally ill.

I have often thought that people think love can cure anything. I know it can't.

Mal

I hope that everyone noticed Mal's comment that "I wanted at last to do something for myself."

That is not selfish. It is self-caring. There is a BIG BIG difference!!

Robby

I am touched my your statement and remind us all that sympathy doesnt even require words. Across the miles I hold your hand and give you a hug and say thanks.

Having been there I am glad to hear your sister and family were able to give your BIL the final gift of love. Sometimes even with family support we allow doctors to make decisions we as a family should be making.

My family doctor treated both my husband and myself. He also had a group of oncologists that cared for him. A few months before my husband died I had an appointment with our family doctor who is young and always treated us as if we were relatives. When he inquired about my husband I mentioned I was no longer sticking to his diet but was fixing him all of his favorite foods. His expression was one of almost horror and he said I dont know about that. My reply was What difference does it make now? I also refused to give him all of the medicine he had been taking for years ..as he was rebelling against swallowing them. I told the oncologist..tell me what he absolutely needs to take because I wont force him to take all of this medicine. We reduced it to just a few a day instead of about 15+ he was taking.

What message are we sending to the younger generation? It is one that will help them when they are where we are. It was my parents and my mother who cared for my fraternal grandmother for ten years even though they had six children of their own. My grandmother was a fiesty Irish lady but my mother treated her with respect and kindness and saw we did too.

It was my MIL who cared for her husband through his final illness that added to the lesson I learned from my mother. When my MIL had a stroke she came and stayed with us for awhile and like my mother I and our children treated her with respect and kindness.

Every kindness we offer to others is a lesson for the younger generation and I believe when it is thier turn to be where we are they will have absorbed that lesson and passed it on.

We may never see the lesson fulfilled but I am certain it will be there.

One of my surviving brothers has a wife who has become an invalid. He built a ramp for her wheelchair, had the bathroom altered for her use and waits on her hand and foot as she is quite incapacitated. His letters to me tell of the things he does ..not in a boastful way but in a loving way. He takes her for small trips which is a burden for him. He is 70 and has a few problems of his own. Her sister comes often to help look after her as well.

All around me I see not only my family caring for their family but others who help and care for family and friends with love and kindness. It is my belief the younger generation is absorbing those lessons and they will be there for them when they need them.

With love and affection for all of "My FAMILY here" I wish you a great day... anna

Oh, Mal; I know so well what you mean.

Caregiving is so totally exhausting. You are exactly where you are when you are the mother of a demanding infant who cannot be left alone and who calls upon you at all hours of the day and night. You have to keep within earshot. You have to be ready to run and assist. You have a myriad responsibilities and NO time for yourself. The patient often winds up blaming you for everything, even up to and including the weather!

When I was a young mother, no one came to help. My parents were in another state. My in-laws both worked and had too many other responsibilites. I had only the one brother, who was 15 years younger and still a little kid. When I took care of my dying mother, I was the only sibling (my brother being my stepmother's child), and there was no one to help. Later, I looked after several other relatives and, finally, my husband was ill for over 7 years. There was none of the loving help Anna describes.

Now, at 72, I sometimes feel guilty when I see people my age working hard for worthy organizations and giving their time to others. I want to make up for all the time I did not have to myself. I gloat in my privacy, the quiet, the ability to do as I please and do it when I please. I revel in living alone, despite having a sociable personality. I feel I have paid my dues and been awarded a free pass. Still pinch myself every day over the release from a constant stew of stress.

"Every kindness we offer to others is a lesson for the younger generation."

-- Annafair

Thank you for understanding, Mary Page.

I went through raising my three children, all four years apart, alone and without help and a husband who was away a great deal of the time. He had kidney trouble, and I also took care of him through that and the surgeries which were required.

After our divorce, I moved to Florida, more or less to escape the demands of my family who seemed to think I'd jump in with every possible kind of help, including financial help I could not afford. I taught them that early on and could complain about nothing because I had done that teaching job so well, to my own detriment.

The three kids all followed me down to Florida, all with varying degrees of problems, including need for a roof over their heads and food. My second son and daughter left after a couple of years. My elder son stayed, and I have described what it was like with him.

It took me a long, long time to learn that if I didn't take care of and help myself first, I could not possibly help anyone else. At this time I take care of me. I have made no attempt to pick up my crutches and go to try and help my daughter, who is two doors away recovering from her Friday surgery. She knows I love her, and she also knows and understands me.

Mal

In reference to Annafair's comment:

My hope is that the help I've given to hundreds of alcoholics and drug addicts, all younger than I am, is something they will pass on to others in their generations. At this time of my life I extend a degree of hope to writers, especially seniors, whose work might not be published anywhere else except in my electronic magazines. Help and kindness are a two way street. Anything I'm able to offer today always comes back to me.

Mal

The Hospice movement has for years kept patients free from pain. My husband had to spend the last five days in hospital due to the drug he was on not being able to reduce pain. He was allergic to morphine and to take morphine gave him severe angina - like an elephant on his chest even a small amount.

At the hospice they made him intravenous drug cocktails getting stronger and stronger. Eventually the strength of the drugs put him in a coma. It is not illegal here to have all the drugs for the day in one dose I believe. I believe many people elect to do this. The pain specialists can keep the pain at bay. Trouble is there is not enough palliative care specialists or nurses. The ones I met were so loving and dedicated. It takes a very special person to work in this field. God bless all the hospice workers. My husband lived 6 years with a type and severity of cancer which should have ended his life in 12mths. Most of the 6 years he did have a reasonable quality of life and could enjoy his boating etc. It was a miracle even his consultant said this. It enabled the last child to be independant of us. For that too I am very grateful.

If the hospice near you is looking for funds dig deep in the pocket. You dont know if you may need their services. If you are terminally ill put your name immediately on their list to ensure when the time comes you will have the loving care and support they give.

Carolyn

Medicare, the health insurer for older Americans, does not cover long-term custodial care, either in nursing homes or at home. Medicaid does, but has stringent eligibility requirements, including an income and assets "ceiling." In other words, poverty, as defined by the program, is a prerequisite for participation. This forces many older patients and their families to pay privately for elder care, usually with great financial difficulty and stress.

Most older Americans who need long-term care don't qualify for Medicaid until they have exhausted their life savings. In most states, a patient cannot qualify for Medicaid until he has less than $2,000 in countable assets. Burial funds, principal residence, personal effects, and other specific resources are exempt from Medicaid elibibility requirements.

As we look for messages to give the younger generation, do we have any message regarding this particular topic?

Robby

Robby - In Canada, it seems to me that we have a better health care system than yours. I don't use it much so I don't know first hand.

Mal - I hope your daughter and her friend will fully recover soon from their bladder operation. I am sure that she feels good that you are right there next door to give her moral support and love.

When I hear my daughter and her husband downstairs talk to their children, I hear my own words repeated again. So I guess I didn't speak in vain.

In response to Robby's post: I'd tell younger generations either to get the law changed by a vote campaign or save every penny for their old age.

I knew a chiropractor in Florida who owned a great deal of property and was quite a well-to-do man. He told me once that he made sure that his aging mother owned absolutely nothing, including bank accounts. Because of her son, she had everything she needed and more, and lived very comfortably in one of the beach condominiums he owned.

Though I'm sure there are not too many here who would qualify for Medicaid, I would. Despite my eligibility, I pay $177.50 each month for supplemental Medicare insurance which would provide me with a certain amount of nursing home care.

This supplemental insurance also provides a certain amount of at home care, which I had once for cellulitis complications from a broken leg. The care was very good, included cleaning help, bathing help, visits by a nurse and physio-therapist, and paid for daily intravenous injections of antibiotics. Meals on Wheels cost me $3.00 a meal at that time (about 7 years ago) out of my own pocket. I don't know what the cost of them is now.

I urge everyone to get a supplemental Medicare insurance policy if you can, and suggest that if I can afford it, you can, too. If the price of supplemental insurance goes much higher, though, I'll have to reduce the amount of coverage I have.

Thank you, Eloise. I'll tell Dorian and Jim what you said.

Mal

I have been sharing some of the thoughts and conversations with not only seniors but younger friends. Mary W's great post on thinking OLD she allowed me to send it to a younger friend who after years of off and on studies was ordained a minister in the Methodist church last year and is the Chaplain in a senior community here. I also sent it to my oldest daughter who became legally blind in her late 30's but who is so busy using a program called ZOOM text, writing a column of seniors for a local newspaper and so many other activities it boggles my mind. Today at church I also mentioned it to a group and like me it was a new way to look and appreciate our knowledge gathered over our lifetimes.

Each person who posts here has something important to contribute. Mal encouraged me when I participated in the WREXER group. And her own story is an inspiration never to give up on OURSELVES!!!!!!

MaryPage you have paid your dues and it is one I understand as well. I have loved my life and would not change a second of it still when my husband died I had to reinvent myself. For the first time in my life I was living alone and that was part of my depression. It was a place I had never been before and I still dont enjoy it. Returning from a trip to California ( my doctor said I had to get out of my house) I sat in the driveway and looked at my home. In my heart I knew it was my Eden but still it was so full of memories that both elated and depressed me. I sat there and said to myself "Anna you either have to plant yourself where you can bloom or bloom where you are planted"

If my husband returned today he wouldnt recognize the place. I have made it my home. It doesnt mean I have erased the memories just that I recognized for me to survive I needed to make new ones as well.

Seniornet first on AOL and Mal's writers group and the poetry forum opened doors for me. For the first time in my life I only had to consider what ANNA wanted to do. I had been it all. I had been the daughter my parents hoped I would be, the wife my husband treasured, the mother my children brag about today, the friend, the SS teacher, leader of the Youth Group, GS leader,so many things where I was a volunteer and spent hours being helpful. I dont say these things to brag and if my husband had survived I would still be that person. And she was a lovely person ...BUT now I had to think what did I WANT TO DO? I wanted to write about my past, I wanted to meet new people with new ideas, I wanted to travel with seniors (Elderhostel) and finally I wanted to make new friends willing to move into the future and not be cemented to the past.

Through this medium I have done that and I am thankful every day for the electronic world and the people I have met here. I opened my home to a monthly meeting of fellow poets and writers. It isnt that I intentionally left my old friends behind but they chose to stand still while I was impatient to move on into tomorrow.

A lesson from my mother If you dont love yourself first you cant love anyone else. I hope that doesnt sound selfish but I really think it is true. I confess I have had to rewrite this when like Mary my computer ate my words. So I hope my thoughts are clear.

IN ANY CASE I am proud to tell people about my friends here. I am not only proud but delighted I have met some up close and personal. So I guess another thing I would tell young people Leave yesterday behind and STEP into Tomorrow!

That is what I see here ...love you all....anna

Great post, Anna. I am honored to have been part of your new life.

Mal

Annafair - I empathize with your sharpened memories. My husband was terminally ill with cancer of the brain for a year and I, under the tutelage of doctors and nurses, learned the complex procedures and protocols that enabled him to be home the entire time, the exception being a week following his initial brain surgery. I had little help or respite and it took a toll on my own health but I am not sorry for the experience. My husband's oncologist told me not to call 911 under any circumstances.

As the current subject has been of a serious nature and recent posts both touching and inspirational I hesitate to "lighten" the air. I can think of many messages that I feel responsible in passing on to the younger generation but, as pertains to my own family, one thing that comes to mind is my grandchildren's frequent questions pertaining to etiquette. My own mother was particularly insistent that my sisters and I observe "good manners." I recall vividly an aunt who viisited when I was twelve and had me walking around with a book on my head (an extreme case) and instructing me on becoming a lady. <G>

My grandchildren indulge my idiosyncrasies with good humor. Both the girls and the boys call with questions about corsages, writing thank you letters, attire for various occasions, appropriate gifts, and so on. I've recently given them etiquette books. This is not to say that they don't have minds of their own and can't make their own decisions.

One of my grandsons has many friends who are frequently at his home as his parents have lots of family parties and these kids are always welcome. Several of these boys haven't a clue about decent table or social manners. Don't get me wrong, they are great kids and I'm no doyenne of the social world, but these kids are going to have to go out into the world and probably be disadvantaged or uncomfortable in some situations if they don't know know at least the basics of being mannerly.

A few years ago I worked for a very nice man. Young, very good looking and a great conversationalist. His table manners on the other hand were atrocious. So atrocious that it was a detraction from whatever point he was trying to make.

My 5-year-old granddaughter is very polite and extremely thoughtful of others. One is never too young to learn to treat others and oneself with respect.

Perhaps passing on lessons in social conduct isn't a major topic in the grand scheme of things but I think it is worth noting.

Judy/CA

"Perhaps passing on lessons in social conduct isn't a major topic in the grand scheme of things but I think it is worth noting."

-- Judy

In one of the earlier chapters of my life I was a career Scout Executive with the Boy Scouts of America. As such, much like some clergymen, we moved from council to council every few years or so and, in the process, were interviewed by the council considering hiring us.

As I was being interviewed in one council, I was taken out to lunch. I was told much later that they were not so much interested in what I said at the table as they were in my eating habits.

Robby

EXCERPT FROM THIS MORNING'S NEW YORK TIMES

A Caustic Look in the Mirror From Boomers By ALEX KUCZYNSKI

Joe Queenan is 50 years old and sorely ashamed of it.

"I loathe my generation," he said last week. "We became culturally frozen in time at a very early age and continue to think of ourselves as trailblazers. It's completely pathetic."

A writer who contributes frequently to GQ and Forbes, Mr. Queenan's latest book, "Balsamic Dreams: A Short but Self-Important History of the Baby Boomer Generation" (Henry Holt), chronicles the cultural irrelevance of his generation, which is — at least to Mr. Queenan — a whiny, narcissistic bunch of paunchy, corporatized losers.

And he is not alone in his distaste.

A body of literature — call it boomer bashing — has emerged from the trenches of American popular writing. As the 80 million Americans born from 1945 to 1963 have begun to slip en masse over the dreaded benchmark known as the big five- oh, a squadron of journalists, editors and authors have begun to question the abilities and point out the failures of the Woodstock Generation. Because most of those churning out the criticism are boomers themselves, the bashing also has the distinct whiff of boomer self-loathing.

Here we are giving our message to the younger generation. Our own families excepted, of course, are the baby-boomers (our children) a failed generation?

Robby

Robby - I don't understand what is meant here by "failed". Failed where, how? In academics, science, business, art, diplomacy? Are the journalists talking about failure in everything? Before I think about this broad question, I would need to do a lot of research and not 'shoot the breeze' (such a cute expression invented by Americans).

I can only look at my immediate family's, friend's and relation's children to see how they are doing.

"We became culturally frozen in time at a very early age and continue to think of ourselves as trailblazers."

What did Mr. Queenan expect? That his generation would be any different from any other?

The fact is that the Woodstock myth and the idealism of some in that generation when they were youths was a very brief space of time in history, just as World War II was also a very brief space of time in history.

Mr. Queenan continues to be an idealist if he thinks the ideals and "trailblazing" his generation did would affect the evolution of human beings in an all-powerful and permanent way. Evolution of human beings takes thousands of centuries, not one generation.

It is not a case of "Down with the old and up with the new" in the blink of an eye. Changes take place only by chipping away at old ideas generation by generation until some changes come, no matter how valuable we think the new ideas are or how much people would like immediate change.

After Woodstock and World War II were over these young people went home and found out they had to go to work to earn a living and support themselves just like every other generation that came before them, even if their start as adults was dramatic and history-making. Some of them did turn into "paunchy, corporatized" types, just as some of our generation did. Why does that make them losers? The baby boomer generation is no more a failed generation than ours or any other generation has been, in my opinion.

As for being "culturally frozen", all generations stick to their own time in some ways. In my opinion, Mr. Queenan and all of us would do better to stop introspectively contemplating the navel of an old time that is past and look to a younger generation and what is new and the future. What can he and his generation do about that? What can we and ours do about it?

These are the important questions, it seems to me. Beating oneself because he or she didn't realize a youthful, idealistic possibiiity is a total waste of time.

Mal

Life is a set of opposites. The search for a purpose is a quirk of the human brain. There is no purpose. There is just orderly move- ment. Life is old age, pain, and sorrow. In the end, we lose everything. That is how it is. Go figure! Michael Nattenberg

Cheer up, Michael. The sun might be shining where you are. If not, it will tomorrow. Enjoy the day.

Mal

I agree with Eloise...Life is the message. That 17 year old may not have understood now that you understand, Robby, but I'm not sure there is anything in that. He will, in his own time, begin to see that life experiences grow empathy for others.

Anna, your last long post was a masterpiece. What a wonderful description of your self-renewal. You and Mal and MaryPage deserve this freedom to write your lives, as a favorite author of mine says. I particularly hope younger people (or young people, as Robby calls them) are watching and learning.

-------------------------------------------------

Robby (ahem), please check with Ginny and Charlie on this, but as I understand it, Boomers (that's me) and others are contributing members of SeniorNet...not just visitors. Your last few questions clearly section off seniors as one generation...or at least somewhat older than 50, and it has been explained elsewhere that "we" in Books and SeniorNet are several generations, in fact, that there is no age cutoff. (As luck has it, Charlie, Ginny and I are all about the same age.)

-----------------------------------------

Yesterday's and today's posts make me think that there are oodles of interesting and related op-ed pieces online (easy to access) that could be our sources for discussion. OR, what.....?? (I assume that we'd have to have some kind of WRITTEN piece to discuss to keep this discussion in Books.) Are there others besides MaryPage who would like to see this discussion continue? MaryPage, say again, please, why we should keep going.

betty

Welcome to our discussion group, Michael. We look forward to further postings from you.

Robby

SeniorNet has no limit to the age of contributors and members. We are as we say we are.

Robby

Why talk about ending this discussion? Have we exhausted all that Alexis de Tocqueville said in "Democracy in America"?
I don't think so.

Today I found this quote in Chapter XVII, which I believe can be applied to my earlier post.

"I listened, and marveled at the feebleness of human reason. How can we discover whether a proposition is true or false in the midst of the uncertainties of science and the conflicting lessons of experience? A new fact disperses all my doubts. I was poor, I have become rich; and I am not to expect that prosperity will act upon my conduct and leave my judgment free. In truth, my opinions change with my fortune; and the happy circumstances which I turn to my advantage furnish me with that decisive argument which before was wanting."

"In truth, my opinions change with my fortune..." Perhaps Mr. Queenan and others like him are unwilling to have their opinions change with their fortunes. Perhaps he thinks the youthful verve which made his generation somewhat different from others at one time would last during the entire lives of the trailblazing baby boomers who exerted such influence a few years ago and whose influence still is felt. If he does, he's mistaken.

I rather think that Alexis de Tocqueville would not be disturbed by the "writing of lives" displayed in this forum. Are those lives not a representation of the American democracy about which he writes? This writing of lives creates links to the past and sends strong messages to the future.

To Michael I ask, why does life need any purpose at all besides the living of it? It seems to me, though, that you omitted quite a few steps that come before old age and "losing everything". Think about what we gain in the progression to that point, and consider what we leave as our heritage.

Mal

Betty - I agree with you that there is a need to have a discussion in "B and L" that relates to a specific book. Tocqueville's book has been discussed at length and it was immensely interesting to probe social issues and compare the life in 1830 with today. I know I have learned more here than I care to admit, but books like this one are rare and I will keep on reading his two volumes. I like historical fiction, like James Michener for instance and I have read all of his books. The Greek Treasures by Henry Sleemen is great.

Because I could read Democracy in America in French it brought me another dimension, the French thinking vs the English point of view. Very different and several times, some of the thoughts in the French book was not understood and translated correctly.

I don't know if I'm right, but Robby might want to do something else. But if he wants to continue, I agree that the discussion should be transferred to Social Issues. It used to be there before it came to B and L.

I have started lurking here and there and I will certainly choose a book to discuss, but I still have to think about which one. Its great exercise to practice my English which keeps wanting to stray.

For some reason I couldnt connect to seniornet this am and when I do you have all just taken off! We cover so much you make me feel like I am flying..zooming about cyber space!

Judy good manners is only a name to call kindness and thoughtfulness and caring! So everyone should practice them until they become part of who we are. My one DIL gave her daughter age 8 a wonderful stamp and embossing set to make cards with. She makes all of her thank you notes and cards for the family. We of course are delighted with her efforts and give her praise.

Robby I can see why your eating habits are important. Years ago I was asked on a date by a young man who was the best dancer! The date started with dinner where he ate with his mouth open..It was so offensive I excused myself from further dates by saying how busy I was.

When my family gather here I put my two granddaughters 8 and 7 busy setting the table which gives me an opportunity to tell them where utensils go and I always use good china and crystal ..I wont cry if one is broken but I want them to think dinner at Nana's is special ....and with working and being a mother my DIL's and daughter really dont have time to do that often.

MAL your reply to Micheal is ..I am not sure what to call it ..but it was so perfect and absolutely wonderful Mike hope you listened. BTW when I was 13 something happened to make me realize life was not forever ..and death would come to all. Even at that age I gave it a lot of thought and wondered would I have preferred never to have been born at all? It was late at night and a sweet breeze was blowing the curtain at the window and I looked out and Thought NEVER Regardless of what life would bring I was always going to be GLAD To have lived. For most of us here we have fewer years ahead then we have left behind but I see we all cherish our past and still awake each day to a new beginning.

Also as to whether we should continue our discussions..I dont think we can be stopped! And I am sure we havent covered all ...I have thought several times ...here we see democracy at its finest! MAL you have an enormous talent of hitting the nail square on the head and driving it home to a sensible and thoughtful conclusion!!!!

I have run out of breath! I am sure I missed mentioning some comment but they were all so good ...there is a deliciousness in reading intelligent and thoughtful remarks. My thanks to all of you..anna

Hi, came in and read a couple of days' posts. Just ready, on this heat-indexed day, to take an old-lady nap, so will talk at 'ya later.

I did think we might go into the folder called CONVERSATIONAL DISCUSSIONS and continue talking about DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA, with the continued proviso that we will not indulge in or engage in partisan politics, and without Alexis de Tocqueville. It is all up to Robby, the final decision, but everyone should offer their opinion for his appraisal.

No, MaryPage, it is not up to me. This forum belongs to all of you. I am the Discussion Leader who will soon be retiring but the discussion itself can continue in one form or another. The key people to touch base with are Marcie, Ginny, and Joan P. Email them with your suggestions.

Robby

Well, I guess that's that. Whether you know it or not, Dr. Iadeluca, you are stimulus and the pivotal
part of this discussion. Without you, I am just another female talking about my tatting and this and that.

Thank you all, everybody. Special thanks to Robby for his intelligence and super stamina.

Off I go. Chapter 12 of "Yet Untitled" awaits its erstwhile writer.

Mal

Regarding my importance in this forum.

"Sometime"
Sometime, when you're feeling important,
Sometime, when your ego's in bloom,
Sometime when you take it for granted,
You're the best qualified in the room,
Sometime when you feel that your going,
Would leave an unfillable hole,
Just follow this simple instruction
And see how it humbles your soul.
Take a bucket and fill it with water,
Put your hand in it, up to the wrist,
Pull it out, and the hole that's remaining,
Is a measure of how you'll be missed.
You may splash all you please when you enter,
You can stir up the water galore,
But stop, and you'll find in a minute,
That it looks quite the same as before.
The moral in this quaint example
Is do just the best that you can,
Be proud of yourself, but remember,
There is no indispensable man.

--Anonymous
(based on an ancient French proverb)

Robby:
Sometimes

You oughtta be glad we feel this way.

Signed:

Ms Independent 2001

Mal

Why is necessary for someone else to appoint our Robby as leader of a discussion group? Why can't we petition those who decide these things to let us keep our group intact? We could call it something else. Robby's Rebels or Real Life Democracy or The Dirty Dozen or anything. It would be a real shame to break up such an aggregation of interested and interesting people who have come to regard one another as real friends.

One of the purposes of SN, it would seem to me to engender just this kind if absorption with a topic, a real sense of comaraderie and apreciation of those with whom we communicate. This should be a primary objective of SN--to enrich the lives of it's constituents. This group has certainly done that for me. It has actually enhanced my life enormously and I'm truly grateful.

Now --as for you Robby--Your modesty is admirable but you undoubtedly realize that we are all being absolutely honest when we say that it would never have been so successful without your guidence. Unless you are just weary of the whole thing can't you help us?

Someone please come up with a solution. Mary W

Robby as Mary says are you just weary of it all? You are the glue that holds us together...So tell us you are going to be with us, please!

anna

Robby, are you up to taking on another discussion with us thinking type nuts?

Mal

Mary W, Mahlia, Malryn, ParyPage, Carolyn, Jenny, Jeanlock, Annafair, Betty Gregory, Tiger Tom, Blue Knight, 3 Kings, Rambler and everybody else I might have left out. ---------------Thank you for having come into my life.

I am as sorry to see the discussion come to an end as you all are. Nothing has stimulated me more than reading your intelligent posts and using my brain for other things than the daily, comfortable, routine. I was forced to look at issues in a deeper manner than before. Not only did Robby do an exceptional job of steering us into a specific topic, but also kept us from getting carried away too far from it.

The choice of the book could not have been better. The Book looked at Democracy objectively from a Frenchmen's point of view who observed how it was in America at the start, how it developed and how it might eventually become with all its pitfalls.

I think that we should let Robby decide how and when to retire from this discussion. We realize that every day he has researched how to ask very probing questions on a multitude of topics to stimulate responses. I believe he read all the posts. That takes time and energy and that is why I understand and uphold his decision.

Thank you and God bless you Robby in everything you undertake in the future.

Easy Does It.

We are not coming to an end tomorrow. No date has been set so let us continue examining ourselves, our experiences, our feelings, and weave them into some sort of message to others, whatever age they may be.

Robby

Time was, when Americans retired, they retired in earnest, to the golf course, to Florida, to consultancies, to volunteer work -- to just about anything except their old jobs. Besides, tax laws generally prohibit companies from distributing pensions to working employees.

But a number of large companies, including Avaya, Monsanto, PepsiCo and Lockheed Martin, are now finding ways to work around the legal obstacles and offer phased retirement. Phased retirement can take many forms. At universities, it is used to clear out elderly tenured professors. But in the private secctor, it is being promoted as a way to keep valued older workers in a tight labor market.

Workers in their 50's who would otherwise take advantage of early retirement provisions in their pensions are offered the chance to work reduced hours -- something surveys show many want to do -- and supplement their reduced incomes by tapping those pensions.

Is this new procedure affecting you personally or any member or your family or a friend of yours? What do you think of the idea?

Robby

My former husband, whom I've mentioned before, owns some businesses and also does consulting for some of the companies you mentioned, Robby. Why not use his intelligence and experience? I'm sure his expertise and knowledge at age 71 is valuable help.

In a smaller way, I'll say that I have been asked to give advice about electronic publishing. I am not in business, but details of my experience no doubt helped the people who asked for my advice.

If you'll allow me, I'll tell you that my granddaughter Megan was over today. There's a career crisis in her life, and she talked to me about it. When I asked her what she was going to do, she said, "Move back to New York." I reminded her that she would return to a place where there had been pain in her life and suggested that she go somewhere new where there was no past or reminders of one.

I told her of the time I moved alone to St. Augustine, Florida where I knew no one. I said when I did I took no past with me and there was no past to which to return. No one knew anything about me, and I could be whatever I wanted to be, including what I became; the manager of a book shop and art gallery. 26 year old Meggie listened carefully to what I said and perhaps will pay attention to the lesson enclosed in my words.

Is this not a kind of senior consulting? The only pay is the knowledge that a young person might learn from the experience and wisdom you have, but I call that a substantial reward.

Mal

Everything is a story. How do you separate yourself from your stories? How do you separate from rooms, when each one is a page in a personal memoir?

Consider this particular woman in Sacramento. Her life has gone through many aesthetic phases. In the 1950's, there was the matching monogrammed bath-towel phase (a must). In the 60's, it was the olive-green phase, in which she swaddled the living room and dining rooms entirely in olive green, including the piano (which she painted). But no phase, past or present, could have prepared her for the next one -- the 11-by-18 phase.

Sometime in the next few months, this 80-year-old widow will leave the three-bedroom house in which has lived for 14 years to move closer to two of her three children about two hours away. Like so many others making similar transitions, she will be leaving a place ample enough to house her aunt's wing-back chairs and her Grandma's marble-topped walnut bureau into a stark, rather frightening rectangle about the size of her current kitchen.

She will have to "de-thing" herself said a 78-year-old friend who went through a similar process two years ago. She is going to have to say goodbye to some things.

Ring a bell? Touch a nerve?

Robby

I currently live in a two story tri-level house with a fair size yard. The attached garage is used as a storage/garden room. Over the years I have accumulated a lot of stuff. Right or wrong I am attached to my stuff. I can no longer afford to maintain this house as it should be kept. Paint, repairs, etc. It is also difficult and tiring to be continually cleaning and traipsing up and down stairs.

What to do? The cost of housing in this area is off the charts and in this particular city there is currently very little in the way of senior housing. Ideally I would like to move into a cottage style home where I could keep a small flower garden and fulfill my love of decorating. This is pure fantasy on my part. The only homes like that here are very old, in an undesirable section of town, and still costly.

A few years ago my aunt moved from her home, (at her childrens insistence) into a senior housing building here. She was terribly depressed by the move. She was 'room 108' at the end of a long dark narrow hall on the second floor. This place did not have communal dining or other community promoting options. She lost touch with the friends she had played cards with, weekly for years, as she moved here from a different town.

Again, a few years ago, my mother-in-law and her sister, persuaded by their children,moved from their beautiful homes into a nice mobile home park here. My mother-in-law would confide in me that she missed her home terribly. She had had a beautiful landscaped yard in her former home, which she loved. Her beautiful home was moved, her oriental gardens razed and a large shopping center was plunked on the property.

I don't want to move from this area as my family all live here. My sisters and I care for our parents who live in a nearby coastal community. Fortunately they are still in their home, and because of our help, at least thus far, are able to do so.

I told myself last summer I was not going to spend another winter in this house, paying the huge utility bills and worrying about leaks. In the fall I became ill and was sick most of the time until early in the spring. Lately I've been going through a series of tests and now another summer has almost passed. I continue to vacillate.

I was with my daughter today and told her that I wished she and her brother would find the time to go through many of my things to see what they might want. I used to entertain large groups and I'm not up to that anymore and think I am ready to part with those memories and items. I now help my daughter and sisters entertain.

I have scads of books that I won't part with, at least not yet. I feel comfortable with my books around. If and when I am to downsize there are boxes of pictures, family memorabilia, various collections, antiques, boxes of theater posters, programs, costumes, hats, that need to be sorted and dispersed.

The rooms in this house sometimes throb with memories. Some good, some not so good. For years we had huge family Christmas parties here. I spent months in preparation so the children would have wonderful memories. In the summer it was BBQs. Family birthdays were celebrated here with fun parties all through the year.

Our family likes to play cards and games. I have a cupboard filled with games of every sort. My niece's wedding and baby showers were held here. I filled my kitchen more than once with flowers to arrange for weddings. I have memories of my mother-in-law, in my kitchen, teaching me to make ravioli and gnocchi. We had ciappino feeds for the people in my husband's office. My husband spent the last year of his life here, mostly in the room where I am typing this post.

My grandchildren love this house. The youngest (5) has her own room with an antique iron bed and antique dressing table. The closet is filled with her books and toys. In the bathroom next to her room is a little chest with a drawer containing a sign she wanted made when she was being potty trained. The bedraggled sign says, "Chelsea's potty." She still tapes it on the toilet when she stays overnight, which is often.

Robby and all - Sorry this is so lengthy. Your topic touched a chord. When the day comes parting will indeed be sweet sorrow. I do know that I am a survivor and I will adapt. Wherever that is I will have the most important "thing" close to my heart. The love of, and for, family and friends.

Judy/CA

Night before last my telephone rang and when I answered it the person on the other end of the line was a good friend from my past. We grew up together and keep in touch sporadically. She called to tell me she was returning to teaching. She retired a few years ago but found herself with time on her hands and a skill that suddenly is in demand. She wont be teaching full time but will have classes several days a week. She was delighted to return to a field she enjoyed and to be busy again.

A number of my friends upon retiring found themselves in demand as consultants. Supposedly the hours would be less although some of them said it turned into full time. One gentleman retired early from his job to give more time to his family. Just to keep busy he started a consulting business. His wife became a partner as the keeper of books etc and they enjoy the "business lunches" ..Their daughters are now on thier own and from the yearly Christmas card I find they are making more money in a more interesting fashion than when he worked.

Another friend retired envisioning a life of golf etc. Six months later he became involved in contracting ..building additions etc and when that became a bit too rigorous he opened a tavern and ran it for five years before retiring again. Now he volunteers at his church repairing etc ...he also does small jobs for people who cant find someone to do them. He says he could do it full time if he chose.

One of my friends father owned and operated a local real estate agency. He continued to run the business including selling real estate until his death at 92. The local paper did a story on him. He attributed his longevity to his continued work.

AND Robby I am glad you out there challenging us!

I keep going through my "stuff" trying to rid myself of it. I have given my children items they admired and wanted. I have given some friends paintings etc they admired. Still I find myself with a home too much with me. I am about ready to go on ebay and try to sell some of it to collectors. My own children have their collections and while they admire mine have no room for both.

Some of my friends who sold their large homes and moved into condo type places regret it as they have no place to make a "mess". They also found new equipment can fail as much as old.

I keep directing the ones with computers to come here and let it all hang out!

Here it is past 2 am and I am going back to bed. I spent the day collecting things to donate to the DAV this week. Someone said I should have a garage sale. I said fine do you know someone who will come and take my garage away!

Bless you all...anna

Decaf – During too few years I lived in a home we owned when my husband was alive and I believe that since we were very young those memories were the sweetest. In the back of my mind though there was always the thought that I would loose that and got inwardly prepared for CHANGE. All my life I have been forced to adapt to new situations. Now that I have been living in this house for almost 10 years, my daughter and family are thinking that we will might have to move. We share a duplex here and I live upstairs from them, but they are in the process of selling their business. I hate the idea. I foresee all kinds of problems. I love to have them around me. We don't live together, but we live close enough to have a daily contact and the kids bring freshness and joy as they are growing up so nicely.

My two sisters have found the ideal solution to their loneliness. – I always thought that loneliness was a large cause of illnesses, depression and suicide - Simone lost her husband two years ago. Françoise lived in Vancouver for 40 years and 3 of her kids are there. Both have 4 children. They have decided to share a large apartment in Montreal. They both got rid of almost all their nice furniture and stuff they were very attached to in order to be able to share the apartment. My sisters made tremendous effort to adjust to each other's habits that grated on the other's nerves. One does the cooking she learned while living in France, the other washes dishes. But I believe the most important element of why this works is that they are able to step on pride and ask FORGIVENESS. They tolerate each other's ideas. They share in the expenses.

Elderly people living alone is the most pathetic situation I ever saw. Poverty is nothing compared to loneliness especially when it comes at an advanced age. All those little cubicles housing millions of elderly people, like in a bee hive, is so unnatural to the human species. Do we live too long? Are we too unwanted? Are we responsible for this situation?

The longest we lived in a house we owned when we were married was 6 years, since we were transferred by the corporation where my former husband worked about every five years. I moved from a ten room house at the end of our marriage to a small two room and kitchenette apartment and have lived in numerous other places since, from a trailer I owned to one room I rented in a friend's house on and on to here in this one room apartment, which is about 500 square feet.

The adjustment to living in a small place after having lived in a large house is not easy. It's hard for me to understand why it was possible for people in their 80's to stay in their homes years ago, and why it's not possible now. Are the reasons for moving to such a small, confined space valid? Are we sold a bill of goods about how convenient it would be? It seems to me that if I'd lived in the same house for twenty plus years I'd stay in it, even if I had to shut off some rooms or rent a room to make ends meet.

Eloise mentions loneliness. Anyone who owns a computer and a telephone does not have to be lonely. I said that once, and someone said, "What if you can't afford a computer?" My response was, "Watch the ads. The eMachine computer I use, a gift from my daughter, cost $125.00 at Best Buy with coupons and rebates."

Mal

I have been reading (my parents told me) since I was 2 1/2 years old. By the time I was five years old I had a personal library. No holiday went by but what I didn't receive books along with other presents. As I grew older I bought books on my own. Then came years of undergraduate and graduate schooling when I accumulated text books and allied types of books.

The years moved on and I continued to obtain books for my own pleasure. Most of my books are non-fiction, the type of books where I would keep them for reference or for re-reading therefore I rarely threw a book away. Now eight decades have gone by (where, oh where, did they go?) and I have a personal library of over 2,000 books.

About three weeks ago I got to thinking -- deep thinking. What purpose do those books now serve? They sit there. They gather dust. I do not read them -- partly because I have already read most of them, partly because I no longer have the specific interests that I had when I bought them, say 50 years ago, and partly because I realize that my form of communication has become "reading" the computer -- that almost anything I want to know can be found with the click of a mouse. The conclusion was obvious -- the books were there solely because they were there. They were serving no purpose and their future was also becoming obvious -- a yardsale for neighbors who, as wonderful as they may be, are not interested in my non-fiction interests -- or Salvation Army or Good Will where the same thing applied -- or offering them to the library (which I did and found they had no place for my sometimes underlined paperbacks -- etc. etc. Their future was to be the local landfill.

Please keep in mind that I am VERY VERY attached to my books. For years I considered them the most important part of my life -- (silly immature me! but that topic for another time). Was I now to throw away a part of me?

I have always considered books to be functional. Items to be read and absorbed and remembered, not to sit (possibly unread) adoringly on some fancy shelf where others could eye them and compliment me on my great intelligence.

Now I am the one who is "rambling" on so I will jump to the conclusion. Here in Senior Net we have a book exchange. My books were given another life. They could be read by others who had never read them. What I had read was already in my head and so was not lost. Part of every day now is spent in either listing on Book Exchange the books I am making available or wrapping them for mailing.

It gives me great pleasure. I am not losing an old life. I am creating a new one.

Robby

For those who like books, click onto BOOK EXCHANGE and a whole new world will open to you!!

Robby

This is so hard...Hi folks, Hendie is still around and lurking but busy with this "de-thinging" business.

Since last Feb, when my house partner died of cancer, I have known that I had to unload posessions and do the sensible thing...move into smaller rented quarters closer to family.

It is a brutal operation - parting with collected baggage - but I console myself with the knowledge that I will be saving my family an awful lot of work in the long run - which is not so far away when I make myself consider my age. Yikes! nearly 82!.

I am so very grateful to my Mother for doing just this....never really appreciated it before...

Hendie

Hi Hendie!! Good to hear from you again! I had an idea you might be lurking. (Hendie and I met personally in the last Bookfest in Chicago in 1999).

Don't hide, Hendie. Come back and share your thoughts with us.

Robby

We pick and choose. I have been "de-thinging", as Betty H says, for 25 years. I am a collector. You know. "I might need that some day", so the job hasn't been easy. One thing I won't part with is my books, and I am pleased that Robby is parting with some of his. The two I asked him to send me will go into my about 2000 volume library.

Most of my books have been in boxes in the studio next door for the year we've been back in this house. They're too heavy for me to lift, and no one has had the time or energy to bring them into my apartment. I miss them terribly. They are my friends, especially my 300+ cookbooks, some of which I have read every day for a long, long time. Cookbooks not only contain recipes, they are a great source of history. Take a look at some old ones someday. Cookbooks also make me feel good, and I won't get rid of anything that does that for me.

I've parted with carpets and furniture, dishes, my piano and much more, but I won't get rid of my books.

Mal

I felt most clever when I sold my house in 1996 and gave one daughter my china, another my silver, and a third all of my crystal.

He! He! I don't have to POLISH silver anymore! Can wash ALL my dishes in the dishwasher; no more hand washing! Same with glassware. Personally, I find it a plus and a relief!

Now I'm in a very attractive one bedroom apartment just off the Chesapeake Bay and very close to downtown Annapolis and City Dock. I have nothing but trees, trees, trees off my balcony. Life is perfect, and I am praying I can stay here until that last breath. To go into one of those boxes in a retirement or nursing home would be the death of me, for sure!

Hi Hendie!! Good to hear from you again! I had an idea you might be lurking. (Hendie and I met personally in the last Bookfest in Chicago in 1999).

Don't hide, Hendie. Come back and share your thoughts with us.

Robby

I've been thinking about what it is that makes us think we need so much "stuff". I was also thinking about Henry David Thoreau and his "simplify, simplify" philosophy.

A long time ago I went into a replica of the cabin where Thoreau lived at Walden Pond. There wasn't much. A bed, a desk, a place for books. It bothered me a little to see an oriental rug on the floor, then I remembered how cold it is in Massachusetts. The rug was for warmth.

I'm sure people would be surprised to see the apartment where I live. I designed this addition to my daughter's house with her help, keeping in mind my interests, what pleased me and what I need to be content.

There are many, many windows, including a very large triangular window over sliding doors that lead to a small deck because I know I must have light in my life. Attached to the deck is a boardwalk to my car, so I won't have to climb stairs.

There's a long, narrow kitchen area with bookcases near the kitchen door. My pottery and ceramic art collection is there decorating the kitchen.

The living room and bedroom areas are separated by a freestanding closet which does not reach the high, peaked ceiling, which gives the illusion of great space. Behind the closet is my bed, a vanity, more bookcases and a bureau, all hidden from outside view.

In the living area there is my computer table, not at all neat. It is filled with all I need for my work, notebooks, pens in a blue metal cup, Tylenol, antacids (!), tissues, books. There is a filing cabinet next to this table on one side where my coffee pot stands. What I call "the employees chair", on which my cat sleeps much of the time I'm working, is on the other side. There is an arched opening to the kitchen near this table.

There are one small overstuffed chair and a maple round table and lamp beside it near the West windows. More bookcases, a clivia, a philodendron, a TV I rarely turn on on top of an old small chest. The doors to the adjoining studio are glass French doors, so I get light from the glass outside doors in that room.

The bathroom is big enough to contain a piggyback washer and dryer. No rugs on any of the floors because I slip on rugs and don't want to risk falling. That works fine unless the knee lock on my brace breaks.

The walls of the living area are a soft shade of yellow. The trim is wedgwood blue. The floor of the living room is a soft honey color. The floor in the kitchen is dark red.

This is my palette, primary colors I love because all other colors come from them. When I started painting pictures, I used only red, yellow and blue, mixed them and created any color you can name. All of those are what I see as the light and shadows mix the colors in my space. The paintings on the walls are ones my daughter, my elder son, a fine artist friend and I have done.

This is the best place in which I've ever lived in my life because it was built to suit me.

Once a woman came to see me. She's of an old Southern family and well-to-do. At first I was a little embarrassed because my home certainly doesn't look like most. Then I asked myself why? What she saw was me. She loved it; said she wished she could have a space of her own that looked like her.

Simplify, simplify. When you know who you are and what you like to do, your home reflects you, even when it is as sparse and bare as mine.

Mal

Mal – Very few seniors I know know how to type. Plus they would have to learn something new, which they avoid as they get older. They rely too much on television to keep them company. Don't forget we are the exception. For myself, I don't want to spend more than two hours a day on the computer. I don't like to talk on the phone a lot.

Robby – In the Comunist Manifesto you sent me there is a one liner that resumes the whole ideology and I never realized that before. COMMUNISM IS THE ABOLITION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY. Very interesting.

Sorry folks for this diversion.

Eloise, MaryW has told us that most of her social contact is done
electronically. She has also told us that she types with one finger
and is 87 years old. I suggest that if seniors do not want to be
lonely and have a computer, they'll meet friends through their one
fingered typing. We don't have to be the exception. Share what
you know. Teach another senior how to use the computer today.

Mal

Mal - We live the life we must live no matter what. I remember what Mary W said but thanks for reminding me. I tried to teach seniors how to use the computer for two years at a community center and gave up. I was getting nowhere they didn't even want to buy one. My volunteer work takes me different places now. I loved to visualize your home, who wouldn't be happy in these beautiful surroundings.

Love, Eloïse

Heloise, any computer teaching I've done has been through forums in SeniorNet and by email with people who have written to me and asked me to tell them how to copy and paste and how to get over being worried that their computers will blow up if they hit the wrong key, just as one example.

Many people who come into SeniorNet are afraid of the computer. I know I was five or six years ago.

"A little help from their friends" would make them overcome their fears. It is a small thing to do, but very worthwhile. Perhaps advice you give would provide them with skills they would not have without you.

Mal

Eloise, you just gave me a brand new thought and please color me stupid.

It is not that I thought everyone in the world could type. The thing is, I just never thought about it at all! Therefore, my concern over so many seniors refusing to even think of purchasing and using computers to communicate did not take into account this very relevant fact!

Mary Page, some years ago my daughter applied for and got a job as secretary at an art gallery that demanded typing. I said, "But, Dorian, you don't know how to type!" She told me it didn't make any difference, she would do all right, and she did. She devised her own typing method, as have my grandson, her partner, my granddaughter and my second son.

I never learned to type in school. I learned by putting caps on all the keys on a typewriter, which covered the letters when I was 15, and typing what I saw in a book, thus becoming what they call a "touch typist".

In my estimation, the excuse that one cannot type when it comes to using the computer is a poor one. Anybody who can see a keyboard can hunt and peck just as MaryW and probably millions of others do.

What we need to do is tell people they can do it!

Mal

When you encourage these seniors who are new at the computer, you
might recommend a typing program by Mavis Beacon. She'll teach
them to type in a hurry through one of her CD's

For some reason I am having trouble connecting with senior net ...I dont have the patience to WAIT so I turn it off and do other things.

When I return there are all these wonderful posts ..with ideas, suggestions and HOPE....

Mal your place sounds wonderful. Like you I need light. I have a skylight over my computer where my bed once stood..A skylight over my bed which is now in a smaller space once used for a sewing room and a small porch has been enclosed with windows all around. I needed to have all of my windows replaced with the wonderful insulated tilt ins and had a garden window put in my kitchen over my sink. Whatever season it brings me great joy. I have replace my incadescent bulbs with the new flurescent ones to save on electricity etc.

When we moved here 30 years ago the first thing we did was build a sunroom and later a deck. Last year I had a fence for my backyard installed so I felt a sense of security when I worked out doors. You know I cant hear worth a darn and felt too open without a fence.

As I have said my husband wouldnt recognize the place. In fact when I gave away the bedroom suite he bought for an anniversary gift when we moved here ( it was really too massive and dark for my tastes but one doesnt complain about gifts) he came to me in a dream that night upset because he couldnt find his way around and wondered where the bedroom furniture was. In my dream I confessed the Salvation Army had it and I never liked it anyway. Although I also confess to weeping when they took it away and had to bite my tongue to keep from saying NO NO I have changed my mind.

I failed typing in school. My mother thought I should take it and I cant tell why except I hated doing all those exercises. So when I bought my computer after my husband died 7 years ago I didnt go on line for a year. I had to teach myself how to type and now amazingly I have become a touch typist ..when I awake at 2 am and come here I never turn the lights on but type in the dark. And I confess I am VERY PROUD OF MYSELF !!

Several older ( 80's) friends who bought computers but never really used them now have webtv ..I am not sure what that is but apparantly it is easy to use and they love it and use it all the time as my mail box will attest.

Since my hearing is impaired my computer allows me to chat with family and friends all over the world. Each time I use it I marvel at how wonderful it is. Television definitely takes a back seat to my computer..I research all sorts of things Prescriptions to make sure I dont have a problem with them. I had silverfish and found out how to get rid of them on the net. Telephone numbers of businesses and friends. And I have found any number of shops etc have on line sites. The local tax office was able to help me via my computer when I couldnt understand over the phone. It is such a wonderful resource for everything and I think if the elderly could see how helpful it is they would embrace it. I do all of my banking on line and my insurance companies sends me my new contract via the computer and I print it out. The stores where I shop email about new items or ones I purchase regularly when on sale.

AND the interesting people is the ICING ON MY CAKE.. thank you all...anna

The discussion of typing techniques reminds me of a teacher in 8th grade who informed us one morning that he used the "hunt & peck" system. At which my girlfriend piped up, "Doesn't your wife object?"

There was just no stopping Eleanor.

Jean - "Hunt and Peck" Oh! yes "that's the ticket". I'm having so much fun with your American expressions I think I'll buy a whole book of them and learn them all. Or perhaps Robby has one he could send me?

Anna - "Icing on my cake", we say the "cherry on the cake".

Perhaps I didn't mention that all the buttons on the old old computers they had at the community center had FRENCH buttons and instructions and I couldn't figure out what they meant because my computer was fairly new and was all in English. Technical terms in French are so new and awkward, they didn't TELL me anything. My students didn't know English. This year I taught English and it's so much better since I can really communicate that way.

The Quebec reality is something else. Patience is a virtue and anger is the mother of all vices my mother used to tell us.

Robby unless your health is the reason you cannot resign. It is your thought provoking posts which have made this forum such a success. We have travelled so many different roads and yet we have managed to keep our sense of humour and agreed to disagree in many ways. This is more than can be said for some of the political discussions where vicious personal attacks have spoiled the debates.

I say we keep going I have never been so stimulated and have enjoyed participating so much. Is it not wonderful that I am so many thousands of miles away yet here am I meeting with you all every day in this forum! I dont care where the discussion moves to, just that we all stay together sharing our ideas and philosophy on life because that is what we have been doing.

Pleeeze dont go Robby!

Carolyn

I do not keep any of my books now except a library of childrens books old and new for my grandchildren.

My books are donated as soon as I have read them to the public library enabling more people to read the best sellers free by helping to shorten the waiting list. At our library we have best sellers we pay to borrow then more copies on the shelf for free. One more copy in the free section does make a difference. For instance I waited 9 mths to get hold of an Oprah book club choice and I rushed to order it from my PC immediately the program finished!!!! The others went immediately she mentioned it and beat me to it! Thus is the power of the internet and reserving books from the comfort of ones own home via the internet!

Some of my favorite books have been non fiction. One which affected me deeply was Nelson Mandelas autobiography.

Robby I am sure there is someone out there for every one of the books you have on the book exchange!

Carolyn

This afternoon I went to the hospital to see a friend I met during the war when we worked together. She is dying of Parkindson's. We have so many cherished memories her and I. So sad to see her go. Our job was to send out notices to young recruits to join the army. We used to go out dancing together.

How many remember the Big Bands, Tommy Dorsey, Glen Miller. Moonlight Serenade, In the Mood, Star Dust, I've Got a Gal in Kalamazoo, At Last. Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, Perry Como. Oh! yes, Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers. I remember wearing a flowing white dress and crinoline with white sandals. Our hairdo used to copy those of movie stars like Ann Sherriden, Betty Grable. The tennis club I belonged to had a band and my mother came by to spy on me. She said: "you can't even run a sheet of paper between you when you dance". We Jitter Bugged, Tangoed, Walzed, Fox Trotted and Slowed all evening long.

The tunes of the 40's and 50's were the best and our young crowd enjoyed it. I remember 'May Time' with Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy. I must have sat through the whole movie twice.

Was it that long ago? I guess so.

Just reminiscing. How about you?

Eloïse

What song topped a list of 20th century American songs as ranked first in the "Songs of the Century" project, created by the Recording industry of America Association?

Robby

Robby, I had to do a search for this, but what I came up with was "Over the Rainbow'. Some lists were done by years, and it interested me to learn that "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" was tops for the 40's. I never liked that song, and sacrilege of sacrilege, I never, ever liked the Andrews Sisters.

I remember the songs you mentioned, Eloise, and forgive me for not spelling your name right earlier. I seem to be hooked on Heloise et Abelard.

I don't consider the songs of my particular time to be the best ones, though I sure listened to "Your Hit Parade" every Saturday night on the radio. It was so very, very long ago, and so much that's new and exciting has come on the music scene since I was baby-sitting for 50 cents a night (that's all night) and listening to that show in 1945 and 46 that I have a tendency to lean to new music more than I do to the old.

Mal

My favorite movie star was Gene Kelly. I liked Lauren Bacall and Katherine Hepburn, Cary Grant. I loved the singers who sang like me, darned if I can remember their names, but they all were sopranos with a lovely vibrato, not Gloria Jean or the Canadian soprano. What is her name? Dancers were my favorites. Later I thought Laurence Olivier was wonderful, but I have no idea if he could dance. I never liked Judy Garland, either. I should hide my head in shame.

P.S. I just thought of a singer. Kathryn Grayson, remember her? Everybody in my family thought I sang like her.

That's enough from me.

Mal

Robby - I think it is Bing Crosby's "White Christmas".

Mal - Kathryn Grayson, yes and her vibrato was quite something.

Mal, you "never liked Judy Garland" yet it was her rendition of "Over the Rainbow" that topped a list of 20th Century American songs. According to a press release of the Recording Industry of America Association (RIAA), the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA), Scholastic Inc. and AOL@School, the list was put together for young people to "help furthr an appreciation for the music development process, including songwriting, musicianship, recording, performing, producing, distributing and the development of distribution and cultural values."

What other 20th Century songs rounded out the top ten?

Robby

"The rest of the top ten: Bing Crosby's "White Christmas"; Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land"; Aretha Franklin's "Respect"; Don McLean's "American Pie"; The Andrews Sisters' "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy"; the original Broadway cast album of "West Side Story"; Billy Murray's "Take Me Out to the Ball Game"; The Righteous Brothers' "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' "; and Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer."

No question, Woody Guthrie was great. White Christmas is a good tune, in my opinion. [ I have to say that: "in my opinion" ] West Side Story has really good music, thanks to Lenny B., who came right out of Lawrence, MA, next door to my hometown, Haverhill. The only time I saw Bernstein was at Tanglewood in the Berkshires. He was a kid, but Koussevitsky, conductor of the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and all of us thought he was great. He was. The man had genius. Scott Joplin would be surprised, since he wrote so many other ragtime tunes he thought were better than "The Entertainer". I have a slew of them as midi files in my computer, which I publish in my magazines. P.S. I never liked Bing Crosby either. Frank Sinatra was real singer. His technique was fabulous, so was Ella's. Why aren't they on this list?

Nite all. My chapter's nearly done. See you in here tomorrow, perhaps. The book I'm writing is kinda gettin' to me and might demand my attention first.

Mal

Robby: I can remember when, maybe a year ago, I would have been reprimanded by you for bring up a subject like popular songs under this general topic of Democracy in America. Where's the relevance, you might ask?

As of maybe 50 years ago, I think the most popular pop tune was "Stardust", but "Over the Rainbow" (which I liked better) may have been close.

Today, I have no idea.

Rambler, Hoagy Carmichael's "Stardust" is a real jazz tune and great to improvise on. Chord progresions that musicians love. Heads and tails above "Over the Rainbow", which is no challenge to a musician. Glad you mentioned it.

Mal

Ah I remember them all .. and even the words to a great number. Frank Sinatra phrased his lyrics so well..each word felt like he meant it ...Bing Crosby was good but he was always too sweet to me. Another one I liked was Frankie Laine...and I remember many of the lyrics to his songs too.

Stan Kenton I saw in concert and loved his music ,.The Peanut Vendor sort of creeps into my memory ...When we were in Europe we saw Ella Fitzgerald in concert.. what was the name of that group? It was a memorable evening. Our tastes in music ran the gamut from some opera all the way through jazz, blues, country western ..you name it we enjoyed it ...loved Classical guitar ..here my mind is going was it Carlos Montoya and who else...and what about Les Paul and Mary Ford?

All of the ones Eloise mentioned...St Louis had a ballroom I went to on dates ...cant remember the name Was it Stardust or was that in another city. In any case we saw quite a few of the big bands there and danced our shoes off...not really but I did go through a lot of dancing shoes..We did all the ones you mentioned Eloise and I loved the Tango as it was such a dramatic dance which my date and I always hammed up!

And the last dance was usually Goodnight Ladies..I would still dance the night away if I could find someone who could too!

And rambler what is better than remembering ? our past is prelude to the future. Democracy at its finest! I also remember headlines about strikes and lynchings etc ...and in retrospect we can see democracy at work ...We have moved a great distance since then. I know we still have a lot to do but we did what we did without overthrowing the government, without Civil War and while we still have a long way to go ..we have also come a long way.

from anna who appreciates each of you ...Very Much ....

When I read the heading I can see there is no topic that is not worthy of our attention and our remarks. I re read it every once in awhile and just did again.

There are no land mines in our thoughts but a real sharing of our feelings and the things we remember. It is such a remarkable expierence ...and each of you have added so much to the pleasure of coming here ... And again I have praise for Robby who doesnt limit us but keeps challenging us ...if by using our brain we are stimulating its new growth I fear we will all have to get larger hats! And isnt that what scientist are discovering?

In my classes at the university we covered some old material ..by that I mean subjects covered years ago in High School and College..all of a sudden we are seeing these subjects in new lights. Before we studied to pass and get on with life..Now we study and research because we want to know no longer superficially but in depth. For all of the seniors who participate in this program it may not add years to our life but it definitely adds interest and joy to what we have ...

anna who will now go to bed and be quiet ...well until next time

Rambler:--I don't remember where I might have "reprimanded" you back there but, as you know, we have subtopics here that we try to stick to. Here, in this final sub-topic of Democracy in America, we are discussing the Older Citizen and Democracy and (at least it seems to me) that it is relevant to discuss "older citizens" and "memories."

Mal says: See you in here tomorrow. The book I'm writing is kinda gettin' to me and might demand my attention first.

Please note her word "might" and her wonderment as to why she was staying up so late to post her thoughts. You guys are a determined bunch.

As you examine the music of the past century, what does the music say about the century itself? What does it say about you, as a person? Does it contain a message for the younger generation? How is "our" music different from "their" music? Does their music perhaps contain a message for us?

Robby

At 18 I happily discovered the music from south of the border. In my late husband's home my BIL played popular music on the piano and crowds of friends danced and sang to those tunes. So different from my home where only classical music had value in my mother's ears and we did not dance.

Mal - I don't even remember dancing music later than that era. What was it? I must have skipped over a few years. I only remember that Rock music came at the heals of the Big Bands with the Beatles.

Rambler - I guess we are just reminiscing what was part of Democracy in America in the wonderful years after the war when the whole world heaved a sigh of relief. In America we were not in the process of rebuilding the country from ravages of bombardments like in Europe. We just prospered and enjoyed life to the fullest as it was coming back to normal. The music industry keeps on producing those on CD. So they did not even go out of style.

Hi, everybody. Good morning to you all. Morning is when I plan my day. It's going to be very hot, so I must decide soon whether I'm going out to buy food. Getting it in the house with me on crutches is a bit of a problem right now. My daughter and her partner can't lift anything at this moment because of the surgeries they had, so lugging bags of groceries into my apartment is up to me. Took me three trips to and from my car to do it the last time I went. Determined is right, Robby. Right now I want to say something about music.

Eloise, I'm a musician, not a dancer, so I approach music in a different way from some of you. The era of Swing, which was "our" music for some of us, was very shortlived. It evolved from Ragtime, of which Scott Joplin was a big part. Dancing always goes along with popular music. The style of dancing has changed a good deal from what it was in the 40's. You just don't see much jitterbugging any more.

A lot of older people won't even tune their heads in to today's music, and I think that's unfortunate. To me it indicates a turning away from now.

I remember years ago that I had trouble listening to and understanding Rock and Roll. That's because I was convinced that Swing was the best and would never go away. I was also convinced many other things I'd grown up with would never change. Boy, was I wrong!

At a much younger age I had more reluctance to accept change than I do now. At a certain point I got "unstuck" from the rut I was in and moved on. Thank heaven!

Not too long ago I became interested in contemporary popular Latin and Caribbean music. I also listened to a lot of popular Japanese and Chinese music. We Americans don't have a priority on music, as I well discovered. New sounds, new things to think about, a different point-of-view. Life can be great!

Sure, the kids are saying something to us with their music. The trouble is, there are some of us who don't want to listen.

Mal

I must confess I dont know any lyrics to the new songs but whatever they are dancing to I have joined in and had a great time. Three years ago two senior couples. Myself, my date and another couple joined a group in Fredericksburg for New Years Eve. I forget the name of the place but it was on Caroline Street in what was a former Lodge of some organization.

They had at least two floors of dancers. The third floor had a trio that played more or less the OLD tunes where we danced and had a great time. On the main floor was a band that played "New Stuff" I dont know the songs nor what they called what we were doing ..but we did it! We just followed what everyone else was doing, we waved our arms when they did and imitated the movements. I cant really call them dance steps as they seemed more spontaneous than that and the crowd there was a younger group.

Robby I have copied the sentences from the heading because I want to ask a question. These seem to describe senior citizens as he saw them, is that right?

"When I survey this countless multitude of beings, shaped in each other's likeness, amidst whom nothing rises and nothing falls, the sight of such universal uniformity saddens and chills me."

"The world which is rising into existence is still half encumbered by the remains of the world which is waning into decay."

"None can say how much of ancient institutions and former manners will remain."

"Human existence becomes longer and property more secure. Life is not adorned with brilliant trophies but it is extremely easy and tranquil."

Is he saying seniors are uniform in appearence and attitude?

I dont want to comment I just want to understand if I am understanding.

Back to dancing and today's music. I have to say I am offended by a lot of what is called lyrics to a song..Recently I read where in an experiment in neighborhoods where violence is rampant ...classical music is being played and violence has decreased. So music to soothe the savage breast may have been someone's view of what really happens.

What think you?

Have to get busy ...anna

Anna - What I see in the first quote starting with "When I see" in my opinion is that Democracy in general, but especially in America has a leveling effect on society. Since there is no Aristocracy to flount flamboyant lifestyle and dress which could easily be observed, he felt everybody acted, wore and thought the same way. No one, except those who struck it rich, rose above the crowd. By the same token, the poor dressed almost the same as the rich people, peasants wore suit and tie on Sunday. Almost all speak with the same accent and behave as if anybody can rise to become the President of the United States. Tocqueville was 'saddened' and 'chilled' in other words he hated the idea since he was an Aristocrat and the low class could rise to the top if they wanted and were smart enough.

In the one starting with "No one" he foresaw that literature, architecture, and 'manner', 'moeurs' he could foresee that there would be a dramatic change from the old institutions.

Only the sentence starting with "human existence" I think refers to seniors.

I think he is saying that EVERYBODY looks uniform in appearance and attitudes. Not just seniors.

Mal - I fail to recognize the melody in Rock music. As for lyrics, well they leave a lot to be desired IMO. Do you mean to say that you can listen to Rock for hours? I can't. I know that music and everything changes. But it's a good thing I don't have to listen to it.

Woowee, is it hot and humid! You can see the humidity in the air. I was glad to get home, and brought in a heavy load of stuff, leaving only one bag in the car. I'll crutch out later to get it.

Eloise, there's a public radio jazz and popular music station in nearby Durham which I listen to. There are also two public radio classical music stations to which I also listen, one here in Chapel Hill. I also access radio stations of all kinds on the web.

As with all kinds of music, there are many different kinds of Rock music. Also, as with all kinds of music, I pick and choose what I want to listen to. There's good Rock and bad Rock, good Funk and bad Funk, good Fusion and bad Fusion, good Punk and bad Punk, just as there was good Swing and not good Swing.

The Rock and other popular music I hear is melodic in its own way. I said before, you have to tune your head in to it and listen long enough to know what you like. I can't dismiss all of this music as one generic unit because it is foreign to my ears any more than I can dismiss all contemporary classical music because it also is foreign to my ears.

Beatles music, which is old hat now, is extremely melodic. Those kids when they were kids wrote some wonderful songs. The lyrics are indicative of their time, which actually wasn't very long. The Beatles didn't stay together as a group very long.
"Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds", for example, is about LSD. "Penny Lane" is about pornography. The Beatles wrote about their lives and what concerned them, so do the young musicians of today.

Don't change the station because you hear a four letter word. It is a reflection of the lives and time of these people and their generation. If you met some of them, as I have, you would find they're as well-mannered and respectful as our generation was when we were young. They're making statements with their music, just as musicians and lyricists have for centuries. Sometimes there's an element of shock to get the listener's attention. This is not anything new.

Maybe later I'll put up a web page with some popular music of today on it that I like and post a link here so you can hear it.

What about New Age music? What's your opinion of that?

Mal

Robby, "Contes Français" has arrived in the mail. Thanks so much for sending it to me. I'll mail off a check for the postage tomorrow when I go out.

Does everyone here realize that you can have a book that is new to you just for paying the postage? Go to the
Book Exchange to learn more about this wonderful Book Exchange treat.

Mal

Mal says:--"The kids are saying something to us with their music."

You've described some of their music to us, Mal. Now please tell us what their message is.

Robby

Mal - I don't analyze and probe too much. I mainly live by instinct whether it stirs me or not. That's in about everything with some restraint now and then to check my runaway emotions. This way I can forgive my limitations.

I do listen to soft melodies with good lyrics. Yes, I also like some Beatles songs. 'Yesterday' is one of my favorites and the lyrics are very good. My own 6 kids are all off hard Rock music now and my grand kids are coming into it. Funny that my daughter can't stand one minute of Rock when the kids put it on and she used to love it when she was younger. Its just a phase I think.

Robby - When I look at a Rock Star on TV with his mouth open wide and his eyes shut screeming at the mike saying words I don't understand I see a lot of violence out there. What bothers me the most is the violence towards women in the lyrics, governments and society as a rule. It's a reflection of our society of course.

My popular music is the music of the thirties and forties. By the fifties, it was too different for my tastes!

Some of my favorites, incurable romantic that I am, were and are:

 
Moonlight Becomes You 
Serenade In Blue 
Snowfall 
Always 
I'll Be Seeing You 
As Time Goes By 
Deep Purple 
Green Eyes 
You'll Never Know 
It's Been A Long, Long Time 
Dancing In The Dark 
Something To Remember You By 
Harbor Lights 
We'll Meet Again 
Autumn Leaves 
Autumn in Vermont

Well, that's just the few I am remembering at the moment. Snowfall was my husband's favorite. I guess I'll Be Seeing You was mine. Oh gosh, it is so HARD to really have a favorite!

When you all look at MaryPage's list of titles, what do you believe is (or was) our message -- both to the younger folks and to everyone?

Robby

Why I don't like most of the music of today is because of the lyrics. In my day love songs were romantic and sang aboutlove. Today they sing about sex. I think its a pity that our younger generation have such a distorted view of romance and love. Love lasts forever, a relationship based only on sex never does. This is why I turn off from the popular music of the day not always because of the musical arrangement but its the words that get to me. I dont really know which was my favorite song but I know I enjoyed the ballads of the 60s and 70s which reflected the wish of young people to live in a world without war. The hippie culture never really took off in NZ, we were still very conservative. Hardly anyone went flatting before marriage, we all stayed with our parents until our wedding days. Girls who flatted on their own or with others were considered no better than they ought to be. This was the culture I grew up in. Many of us adopted the clothing and hairstyles but the drugs and free love were not common. The contraceptive pill was not available in NZ to unmarried women until the seventies. Marriage was a popular choice, living together was not really an option.

Carolyn

Carolyn says:--"In my day love songs were romantic and sang aboutlove. Today they sing about sex."

Is that one of the major differences between our generations and is the music reflecting this?

Robby

Actually, quite a few of our songs were very much about sex. They were just much more subtle. Well, let's face it; today's (from what I read, I do not listen) are not subtle AT ALL!

Does anyone remember Noel Coward doing "Let's Do It!"? That was a Cole Porter, wasn't it Mal?

"Birds do it. Bees do it."

She had to go and lose it at the Astor."

You didn't think this old codger remembered those things, did you?

Robby

What a naughty memory YOU have, Robby!

Was the next line, "even educated fleas do it!"? I used to wonder how the fleas who were not educated managed to reproduce! (Yes, smack my hand for a naughty girl!) (but I DID wonder!)

And you all thought I was the stiff, humorless, academic type, didn't you? Just at the time I was bowing out of here.

Robby

Actually, Robby, I never thought such a thing!

I was going to come in here and say, "What am I? The guru of today's music? You tell me what it's all about."

Then I read Mary Page's list. It is a list of very romantic music. Some of us grew up in a very romantic time, and you'd better believe it, World War II or not. Do you think those kids who went and fought World War II had any idea what they were getting into, what death, maiming and bloodshed they would see and endure? I don't think so.

With the influence of romantic, idealistic music, movies and books on us, we were a very unrealistic crew. Carolyn said in a post that "Love is forever." It isn't, and today's kids know better in the tough world where they live. They have seen what happened to us and their parents and are much more realistic than we were as youths, or perhaps are even today.

Here's a quote from Eminem, a Hip Hip Rap artist (white). Bear with his language. He's telling us something about his generation. Remember that this is a young man speaking.

"I'm not alone in feeling the way I feel. I believe that a lot of people can relate to my ****, whether white, black, it doesn't matter. Everybody has been through some **** whether it's drastic or ot so drastic. Everybody gets to the point of I don't give a ****."

Earlier I tried to post the lyrics of one of his rap tunes and my computer went kerflooey. This, essentially, is what he said.

"Mom has another valium in her hand. Grab her before she crashes on her *** and we all end up like Christopher Reeve."

Is this his generation this young man is talking about, or is it ours and that of his parents? Listen to these kids. They're telling us something about us and the democratic society we have made for them.

Mal

I hoped that this thread would take off. It sure took a long time though, but it did.

MaryPage - Would you believe that this French Can. could know all the words from the songs on your list? Well I still do. Romance was what love was all about.

Mal - In your Sonata or WREX there is a very cute story about "doing it". Its so humourous and folks let Mal send you a link, I don't know how to do it????, so she will. Its so funny, I laughed at every line.

In what category do the following favorites of the 20th century fit in?

Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer (Gene Autry, 31)
Your Cheatin' Heart (Hank Williams, 34)
On the Good Ship Lollipop (Shirley Temple, 136)
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (Beatles, 167)

Robby

maryPage--

"Fleas do it, etc....."

What they did according to the song was "fall in love". Didn't say anything about consummating it.

I have to say, and I do not apologize, that I can't bear modern 'music'---there's nothing musical about it. I remember when a friend and I went to see Harry Belafonte at the Westbury Music Fair (Long Island), and he had brought along some group of young Harlem 'singers'----After about 2 minutes, Shirley put her hands over her ears and said "I just want it to stay out of my ears." And I certainly agreed.

I think that the difference between our generation(s) and the current ones is that we "made love"--which implied some mutual feeling of affection.

Now they "have sex" just as they'd say "burger with fries". It's a commodity.

I believe that true love is forever. If two people truly love one another and are prepared to work through difficulties together it is forever. Just ask some of our SN members who have been married for 60 years.

We have a column in our local newspaper it celebrates long marriages. The couples are interviewed. One thing they have all said their long lived marriages were due to the desire to stay together and communicating with each other and respect for each other.

I think the whole problem with couples approaching marriage today is they sometimes go into it with the idea of "If it does not work we can get a divorce", not with the idea that we are going to work together and have a successful marriage.

I had an Aunt and Uncle who were my inspiration. They loved life, travelled, had fun but they really cared for and respected each other. My Aunt had a bad heart from age 56 she lived to the ripe old age of 85 after refusing by pass surgery. She maintained it was the loving relationship she had with Uncle which kept her alive, a sentiment which her cardiologist said was the only explanation. Their life was truly a "Love Story". That is why I believe that love does last forever.

Carolyn

That's the whole point, Jean. They did not come right out and say what the song was teasingly referring to. But don't you remember? In the twenties, thirties, and forties, having sex was called "It." As in "Have you done 'it' yet?" Most of us girls didn't even know what "it" was!

Carolyn, I think commitment might last forever, as long as forever is. When two people decide to commit themselves and their futures to one another and keep that commitment at the top of their brains and priorities, a long-lasting relationship can result with the kind of love that has grown because of that close, joint commitment.

In my opinion, love is a powerful emotion, but unless the emotion is based on very strong instincts like those most parents feel toward their children -- mother-love, father-love -- emotions can be fickle.

Also in my opinion, being "in love" is the kind of emotion which should not ever be trusted. That's me, and I certainly understand those of you who do not agree.

Mal

With all the confusion on this subject that young people have (just as we did), do we now with our "wisdom" have any clear guidance?

Robby

At my advanced age--ahem-- ican remember stuff you probably never heard. I remember my parents ragtime and how it morphed into jazz which I love. Then came the era of swing with all it's wonderful musicians, first black and then white. sandwiched in between was progressive jazz--an intellectual approach to current jazz.(Artie Shaw) The next really big beat on the scene was rock and roll.The Beatles swept just about every other kind of music into the musical archives including some of the biggest stars. Since the Beatles I really cant remember the chronology of hard rock, heavy metal,rap and all the other stuff which masquerades as music today today. I have no idea wha new age is.

There was nothing sexless about the music of the thirties and firties. All of Cole Porters' songs were sexy and gorgeous. Not just "Birds do it". Des anyone remember "Night and Day" or "Begin the Beguin" and others? The music was sensual and compelling as well the words. I remember nearly all the songs from my dating years but one was one of my husbands' favorite.It was "If I Could be With You".Anyone ever heard of it? There were many others as well.

Most of popular and typically American music evolved from early blues. That I really love. Todays rhythm and blues is sort of marriage of new music to old blues.

Every big band on the road made St. Louis, where I spent my first Twenty-six years. I either heard them in or concert or danced to them in hotel ballrooms or clubs, most of them outdoors(in the summer).This was also during the depths of the depression. No one had any money but the cost was very modest. Either a small cover charge,a minimum,or something. Girls didn't know what enternment cost in those days. We never paid for anything. Different now, eh?

Ther is a lot of stuff I want to talk about but it'll have to wait. It's tie for "Jeopardy",the only daytime program I watch on Tv.

Robby no one ever thought of you as stiff or humorless or any of those dehumanizing adjectives. Any one who has lived at all and especialy for so long as you have could have been content to simply study al of his life with no diversions.

More later, Mary

I don't think we do, really. There is an awful lot of pontificating, but in the long run, we still don't have this boy/girl thing figured out.

I don't know about yours, but mine was a generation of seduction and innuendo. "It" didn't have to be shown on the movie screen because the suggestion of it was so strong that all we could do was sit there and say, "Whew!" Times have changed, and sometimes I wish we were back to those old days. Who knows? Maybe we will be someday. History has a funny way of repeating itself.

Yup, Mary Page, Cole Porter wrote "Let's Do It". I can't tell you how many times I've sung and played that song in hotel cocktail lounges and on the radio, along with a heck of a lot more of his stuff like "Night and Day" and "The Lady is a Tramp". That rich dilettante sure could write a song.

Mal

Mary W reminds us that "the music was sensual and compelling as well the words."

Anyone here feel anything "sensual and compelling" about today's music?

Robby

"Sometimes I wish we were back to those old days.

Anyone else here with that same wish that Mal has?

Robby

Yes, indeed. The beat is so compelling that it's overwhelming
sometimes. Sexiest drumming I've heard since I came out of Africa as
a descendant of "Eve".

Mal

Nobody "did it" when we were young. Even engaged couples who were desperate to be together didn't. Our moral outlook was still governed by remnants of Victorian manners and mores.

MAL-- I'm with you about "being in love". Loving is very different. Maintaining love over a long period requires wisdom and discipline. When it works it is wonderful. I have always believed that to like is much difficult than to love. Liking is the foundation of any relationship. Sex is great but it is not ebough to sustain a long-lasting relationship or a marriage.

In connection with what Mary W says about the old songs being sexy, do you remember

 THE SHEIK OF ARABY 
STORMY WEATHER 
WANTING YOU

In my generation we "did it", but we made sure nobody knew.
Still the Victorian influence. Oh, boy, those Victorians!
If I'd known long ago what they did, I wouldn't have felt quite
so uptight about the feelings I had when I was a kid. Human beings
are human beings, and sexual urges are normal.

What a revelation that was!

Mal

You made me laugh so hard, Mary Page. It's Sheik, but who cares?
That song was long, long before your time. Who taught it to you?

Mal

No matter how much cats fight, there always seem to be plenty of kittens.

~Abraham Lincoln

Mal, you flatter me. That song was NOT before my time! And hey, I found it in the dictionery and corrected it!

Not for anything in this old world would I wish to go back to my growing up days.We were probably one of the most repressed generations in this century. Not only was everything forbidden but we really didn't know what "everything" was.

I was never taught anything I needed to know to prepare me for life. being a wife was a complete mystery to me as was being a mother.I hated being young and not understanding things and hated not having anyone to ask. My mother was an invalid almost all of my life--from the time I was eight years old until I was twenty-eight I had no maternal guidance. A little like Topsy? I spent years in a very rigid girls'boarding school where was certainly no help.

Ro recap--My youth was not fun. But we did have the advantage of a baptism of fire in the social upheaval afte WW1, the depression, WW2 and it's the enormous changes in it's wake.WE seemed to develope a self-discipline that served us reasonably well

But once again? never! Todays taste, maners, music .dress, language may have forced the pendulem off its swin but it will right itself again and very likely some better social order will evolve. Let us Hope

because it's 95 degrees outside and 85 degrees in this room, I will say to my dear friend, Mary Page, that "The Sheik of Araby" was written in 1921. Now, you're younger than I am, Mary Page, and I know darned well you weren't around then. 'Fess up. Who taught you that song?

Mary W, I continue to love you and your posts. Let's start a Mutual Admiration Society, okay? Hope you are well and tolerating that hot Texas summer you're in.

P.S. I'm fine. The present urgencies of this recuperating-from-surgery household have not yet done me in. That's why I'm going to finish chapter 12 or 13 (I forget) tonight of "Yet Untitled" and send it to you as soon as it's finished. Bet you didn't ever expect this book would concern itself with youthful male-female relationships, single sex relationships and the search for extra-terrestrial life when it started with a guy who invented a soft, cuddly doll that sang 15 songs, forecast the weather and did horoscopes, did you? Well, it does, and if I can make it work, I'll treat myself to a strawberry ice cream soda.

Mal

Referring briefly to earlier posts regarding moving from a larger place to a smaller place and getting rid of "things," I would like to quote one of the women who discussed her feelings during the course of a move. She said:--="We forget what it means to leave a place where we feel at home. If someone loses a spouse or significant other, we have ways in our society of grieving. But we don't have rituals for mourning a house."

How do you react to that statement? Is there any sense behind having a ritual for mourning a house?

Robby

Photographs! I've moved more than 30 times in my life in the USA and abroad and I'd truly be lost without the wonderful photos that I have of almost every place I've lived. The women in my family are writers and we have a collection of anecdotes about some of those previous residences: some funny, some sad, some ridiculous. But they all bring back interesting memories. I'm very adaptable - moving from large houses with big gardens to studio apartments - and find that there are joys and sorrows in each journey. I like to enjoy the good parts and deal firmly with the negative aspects. I keep remindmind myself that "Life's NOT a dress rehearsal."

I just came back from a 3-hour heavenly walk into the woods nearby where the river runs through. I even slept ON A ROCK a few minutes while I heard the distant roar of rapids where this branch of the St. Laurence river falls a foot or two. Surprisingly I hardly met anyone for the entire 2 mile long foot path. Too hot I guess.

While I was gone, I had to scroll back 5 or 6 times to catch up with what was going on. This discussion is running wild. It must be because we are on the home stretch. All those songs that everyone mentions takes me back to such nice memories when we were young.

Robby - When my husband died we had two houses, one in the small town in the Laurentians and one on a lake about an hour's drive away. I made a terrible mistake, not because I sold both houses, but because I bought a condo instead of a smaller house. We hated living in a building, the kids and I felt lost without a garden to escape to, greem grass to look at, trees too far away.

Since I never lived very long in a house I have never grieved for one but I think I would if I lived for 30 years in the same one.

The only house I ever mourned was one I never had, a house of my mind, the dream house of my imagination that I put down on paper with a pen when I was 14 years old. It is like the New England to which I'd love to return, but that place never existed either, except in my mind. I keep a remnant of those youthful dreams in my head because they please me sometimes, but I live in now today reality. Do I make any sense? What a leading question!

When I said "sometimes I wish I could go back to those old days", I meant the time of seduction in the movies and books when my imagination told me more than I'd ever see on a movie screen or a printed page today.

Cooling off a little here.

It's been a dumb, humid, hot, unproductive day. They happen once in a while.

Mal

What do you think folks. We have been asked many times: 'What message do we want to pass on to future generations' by Robby and we gave our opinion ad infinitum. I think we didn't suggest yet to publish all of this discussion since the beginning and distribute it to the younger generation. In this, they would have the complete lowdown. It would be an Anthology of Senior's Advice For Future Generation. Hey How About It?..............Eloïse

Eloise, it's a wonderful idea, but do you know what would be involved?

First someone would have to find an editor to edit over a year's posts and make them readable in a way that the book would sell. (That's what publishing is all about.)

Second, an agent would have to be found who would be so convincing that some publishing house would buy this "book".

After a publisher was found, some editor would come in and tell us to rewrite, rewrite, rewrite all that is here. Perhaps then the publisher might possibly consider sometime publishing what we have said.

It's a long, involved, demanding process, and as someone who has tried to have her works published, my advice would be to self-publish our "book". That also takes a lot of work, time, energy and money.

Believe me, I know.

I was editor and did all the pre-publication work for "Late Harvest IV", a collection of WREX Writers Exchange writing which was self-published by Seniors Networking in Publishing, a now defunct group, in 1998. It cost just about $3000.00 for 300 copies of the book, and I still have unsold remainders here where I live. Want one? Send me your address, five bucks and the amount of the postage, and I'll ship a copy of this 308 page book off to you.

Mal

Mal - Don't you know when I'm kidding? I would be too scared to see some awful posts of mine published. No, I like to feel that we are just between ourselves shooting the breeze, as you say down there, and nobody else evesdrops on us. I know that there are 'lurkers' too but not too many.

If such a book were published, no names would be mentioned. It would give the gist of what Seniors are saying these days.

Robby

Hard to believe, but in just the past century alone human life expectancy has increased by three decades and may reach 85 for babies born in this century. That may be near the upper limit unless science finds ways to dramatically slow the aging process, according to researchers at the University of Illinois in Chicago. Said one researcher:--"We anticipate that many people here today will live long enough to witness a life espectancy of 85 years, but everybody alive today will be long dead before a life expectancy of 100 is achieved, if ever."

This is, of course, an "expectancy." Many people now living will live past 85. Assuming you have good health, for how long would you like to live?

Robby

Until my next birthday!

Good to hear from you again, Raymond!! Come do some more sharing with us.

Robby

I have been sitting here thinking of everything you have been saying. Most of the songs I knew well and even remember the words. I have a treadmill and when I walk I sing...well let us say I make a joyful noise since I truly cant carry a tune. If my mother had heard Johnny One Note she would have said THAT'S ANNA MAE.

I couldnt possible tell you how naive I was as a young girl growing up..Suffice to say I was in my 30's before some words of the English language fell on my ears and had to ask my husband what they meant.

Romantic stories and romantic songs I embraced and made them mine. I read everything but without an adult's understanding. Years later when I re read some of those books I couldnt believe they covered incest, adultry, lust, seduction, perversion etc. Today I am sure a 12 year old would know!

When some of my classmates became pregnant, and that wasnt a word in my vocabulary either..having a baby ...they left school and in most cases married the father. If there were a lot of girls who became pregnant I have never been aware of it. We had about 250 in my HS graduating class and I kept in touch with many of them. Only a few had seven month pregnancies.

Perhaps having three older brothers who served in WWII and were very protective of me ...helped to keep me naive. I would never think of dating a young man my family had not met and I rather suspect my brothers let my dates know they had better behave..and they certainly did..I am laughing when I remember this because I felt I was going to live my whole live and NEVER KNOW what all the fuss was about.

Who wrote we called it making love not having sex? Because that is exactly what my husband and I called it. Withuot bragging HA HA I am we had a glorious time making love!

We had a wonderful life and it was special in ways it would be difficult to tell. I think at least three of my children will have the same..It took my oldest daughter and her husband some time to reach the point where I felt that was true. My son's and their wives have shown so much caring and love through some very trying times I think they too will. My youngest who is 33 ..a successful business woman and the mother of two I am not sure about. I am sure she will carve out the kind of life SHE wants. AND I will support that regardless of my personal feelings. I lived my life and I grant them the same.

Even if I could live a VERY long time with good health I am not sure I really would want to...I have lost as I am sure many of you ..both my parents, three of my five brothers, adored Aunts and Uncles, cousins I grew up with, childhood friends who were as dear to me as if they were my family. Thus far my grandchildren have been well and typical. The youngest was born with a kidney problem that has been resolved and my DIL tells me all of the specialists say he is aok...medicine he has taken since birth he can now omit ( he is 14 mos old)I do worry about my oldest since she is legally blind ,,,mostly because I worry what will happen if her husband precedes her ...One close friend lost her husband two years ago and last year the middle son of five. She has a difficult time dealing with that and I cant imagine my life without any of my children or grandchildren >>the longer you live the more pain these partings will bring. Even if you continue to GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE.///

It seems to me the best gift we can give to young people is to LIVE until we die and do it as well as possible. Always thinking tomorrow is a new day. And they will remember when we are no longer here that we kept learning and doing and surviving. And they will too.

I know I sound like Pollyanna Perhaps all Anna's have that flaw.

I know I said too much I always do..but I have never known when to stop. Just know I cherish everyone and love to read what you think and say...anna

Anna, I have so thoroughly enjoyed your long posts, as well as tons and tons of others' posts. This is zoooming too fast. I'm ready to talk of paring down belongings for a smaller house, then music I love, then one topic after another that zooms by.

I'm not sure there is comfort in hearing how others have successfully left behind a house and moved on to a smaller place. It seems like it would depend on so many other things...length of time in a house, what it has come to represent, etc. A loss is a loss and it is bound to mean something different to each of us. (Good point from the person you quoted, Robby, that we don't recognize a loss of place in the same way we honor other losses.)

When I moved to the Oregon coast and lived in my all-my-life dream of an old cottage, it meant the world to me. Every day of each of the five years, I was more and more in love with that spot, those trees, the smell of ocean and pine and spruce. What I could see from my windows was everything to me...those trees and I had many, many conversations. The opposite of that lovely spot is where I am now and I'm slowly making the best of it. At least I'm in liberal, beautiful Austin and out of Houston. But, I'm not the same and I have not done very well finding answers to how to be happy again in any place but my spot in Oregon.

A long time ago, when I was procrastinating about leaving one profession and beginning another, a friend reminded me (in written form) that leaving is rarely what we think it is. She reminded me that the best of what I have lived is now part of me...and when I leave something, I take it with me, gracefully. That is absolutely true. The Oregon coast is part of who I am now; it is not just a place where I used to live. That helps a lot.

betty

Dr. Leonard Hayflick, a gerontologist well respected in the field of aging, has denounced what he calls "outrageous claims" by some scientists that humans are capable of living well past 100 years. "Superlongevity," he says, "is simply not possible." He says tht even if the most common causes of death -- cancer, heart disease and stroke -- were eliminated, "the increase in life expectancy would be no more than 15 years."

Aging, he says, is a decline on a molecular level that makes people "increasingly vulnerable to disease" and that this process is not receiving much research attention. Instead, most aging research, he says, concentrates on the age-related diseases that can be easily identified such as heart attack, stroke, cancer and Alzheimner's disease.

He added that nature designed humans to peak physically at about age 20, to assure reproduction and survival of the species. After that, humans "coast for another four to five decades" and it is the length of this coast that determines longevity.

What reaction do you folks have to all this and especially the span of life described as "coasting?"

Robby

Anna – You are so right and I feel the same way. I know you will live a long and happy life because of the quality of your thoughts. Don't worry about later, it will all sort itself out as you are used to dealing with problems as they arise. I think I will get myself a treadmill. – AND SING - I tried a stationary bicycle but did not like it. I walk outside, but in the winter it's hard here.

Betty – I have always dreamt of seeing the Oregon because of mountains and dramatic beautiful scenery right on the Pacific Ocean. Back in the late 60's we owned a cottage on a beautiful lake in the Laurentians that we built ourselves, small house but big windows and tall trees through which you could see spectacular sunsets. I still think of that house fondly and perhaps regret it. For me it's not the house as much as the view that gave me pleasure and, of course, the sweet memories attached to it.

Robby – If I can live much longer with the health I have I will thank God a million times. I never though it would be this way when I was young. I will be 75 on the 25th of this month. My family is in awe of me and they watch everything I do and copy me. I know they want to live a long, happy and healthy life. They are nutrition conscious, care about the environment, don't care about luxury, face problems and the way they deal with them, I am amazed, raise fantastic children.

Medical researchers usually don't look at the prevention of diseases, but look at which treatment to apply. My view has always been prevention in physical and mental health. I am convinced that my own research has paid off in how I am today. I don't talk about that to my doctors. They don't even listen and shrug it off like if it was all 'old wives tales'.

It sure doesn't feel like coasting to me. Maybe Dr. Hayflick is right about "decline on a molecular level", don't ask me. I don't look at life from that angle.

One can't make generalities about methods of achieving good health and a ripe old age. The uncle in Massachusetts who raised me never smoked or drank alcohol. He was a moderate man who needed someone to take care of him, and after his wife died he found someone who would. He lived to be close to 90, died from the effects of a stroke.

His neighbor down the street, my friend and mentor at the end of my marriage, smoked his first cigarette when he was 9 years old, had his first drink in the presence of his mother not long after that and enjoyed his cocktail hour up until the day he died. He was not a moderate man in the way my uncle was. He talked fast, moved fast, rushed here and there, worked until he was 76 and would have worked longer if someone had hired him, liked change and loved life. He lived to be close to 90, and the last 25 years he lived alone. What caught up with him was an aneurysm he'd carried around for years.

His death was sad for me because he taught me more about appreciating life than anyone I ever knew. There's not a day that goes by that I don't look at the picture I painted of him striding down State Street in Newburyport, MA when he was in his 80's and remember the lessons he taught me.

As for me, my body has been abused by illness, accident and injury almost all my life. There have been times when I was not kind to it. I am 73.

How long would I like to live? Well, forever, of course. I don't think about dying and death, though I've spent plenty of time thinking of those things in the past. I think about life and what I have to do. I structure my life so that there's always plenty to keep my mind occupied and me as busy as possible. Since I know I won't live forever, I live one day at a time, work hard and enjoy my life as best I can. Things new intrigue me, and I am now going to explore a visual thesaurus my New York son wrote and told me about. Who knows what other exciting, new things will happen to me today?

Mal

Having a cup of coffee here. Soon my lovely granddaughter, Maria, age 21, will pick me up to take me to an appointment with my eye doctor. Because the heat index here yesterday was 110 degrees and because it is supposed to be WORSE today, I will scurry home and vegetate for the remainder of this day.

Mal, don't go all superior on me with that OLDER business! It is only a matter, after all, of MONTHS; and at our age, that simply does not signify. I think of us as the SAME age. Now, about the infamous Sheik! They still played that song in the thirties and forties. I played records of it. And in school, we had verses that I do not believe were ever heard on the radio. For instance, did the real verses include: "I'm the Sheik of Arabicque, At night into your tent I'll creep!"? etc.?

May W., what a coincidence! All of my adult life I have looked back on my childhood and compared myself to Topsy!

Mal, when one could enter a drug store, hop up on a stool at the soda fountain there, and order a real ice cream soda, the strawberry was always my favorite as well. But Mal, it just would not be the same without that cool marble counter to put your arms on while spooning up that delicious confection and, later, slurping up the last sweetness from the bottom of the tall glass. I think it needs the fans going overhead, as well. Sigh!

I have only mourned one house in my conscious wide awake emotions. However, in my dreams I have mourned them all. Dreaming I was back "home", I have wakened to deep feelings of sadness and loss. I think a sense of "place" and territory is deeply innate in all animals.

How long would I like to live? Until at least May 2025, when I can go back to West Point and step forward when my father's name is called in the last roll call for his class of 1925.

Me too, Anna! I can NOT sing also! Tone deaf! Sound just like a vacuum cleaner! Got it from my mother. My father could sing beautifully. Two of my children cannot sing also, too, as well. Two can sing very well indeed, one having won a talent contest for her singing. I am CERTAIN there is a gene for this! If there is reincarnation (mind you, I do not believe there is, but IF there is!), I am hoping to come back a red headed opera singer!

Eloise and Betty, I, too, have always wanted to see the beautiful Oregon, and especially the coastal area. Never have, and probably never will. However, I do not believe anything in this world can be more beautiful than the thousand island area of the St. Lawrence; Eloise's country!

I was not a protected and sheltered kid. I was aware of those four letter words when I was very young, though no one in my household ever said them. No one in my household ever taught me anything about sex or life, either. What I knew came from the sidewalk and other kids and reading I did.

I've told you I went on the train alone at age 14 to Boston, a city full of temptation and danger, 35 miles away from my hometown, took the subway to the New England Conservatory for music lessons and explored the city alone.

I've also told you I was alone at home after school from the time I was 11 years old, had the responsibility of cleaning up the breakfast dishes and other chores when I got home as well as starting supper, and the responsibility of making sure I practiced my music and studied. A childhood like that does not make for naiveté.

My husband tried to keep me sheltered, and what a mistake that was! Anyone who learns independence at an early age doesn't tolerate dependency too well.

My life as a female has not been like that of most of you, thus some differences I perceive, including not being swept up in romantic dreams about what life was all about, though I certainly had some in the fantasies I indulged in when I played the piano as a kid. That was when I dreamed of being a "star".

Mal

I used to play the "Sheik of Araby" on the 78 rpm records on the Sonora when I was five years old. I'm talking 1925.

Robby

Okay, folks, here you go. Please click the link below for......

The Sheik of Araby!!

Mal:--I have to say, you play the computer like a fine musical instrument. I admire your skill in this field.

Robby

Mal - Was that Rudolph Valentino and Mary Pickford there? I read that he was the most romantic actor ever. The song was still played 20 years after it came out.

After being married one year, I was still blushing when I heard sex jokes. We had lived in a cage before.

MaryPage - I only saw the Thousand Islands once from a boat. Lovely. Did I read that you live close to the Chesapeake (sp)? That must be also very nice. As long as you can see water, that's where I like to be.

Eloise, the picture on the Sheik page is of Vilma Banky
and Rudolph Valentino. Sexy, wasn't he? A handsome dude.

Thanks, Robby. If you'd had the time to work as hard as
I have to learn the ins and outs of the computer and building
web pages, you'd be doing the same thing a lot better than
I do, probably. There's so much I don't know! Have to get
busy now and learn all about it.

P.S. See what exciting things there are in life? I had no
no idea this morning when I got up that I'd build a Sheik
of Araby page.

Mal

The number of very, very old workers is growing, largely because of the blazing demand for labor in recent years, and the stunning growth in the number of older people. When the United States was born, one of every 40 people was over 65. Today, one in seven is, and by 2030 one in four will be, the Census Bureau has predicted. Older people today are also healthier, on average, making it easier for them to keep working.

Consider F. William Sunderman, age 102, who arrives at work at 8 at the Institute for Clinical Science at Pennsylvania Hospital in Philadelphia. He edits a medical journal and brags that he keeps two secreatries busy. He asks:--"If I didn't do this, what else would I do? I'd just twiddle my thumbs." Two years ago, he played his violin, a 1694 Strdivarius, with a string quartet -- in celebration of his 100th birthday.

Consider John F. Mally, 92, who puts in 40 hours a week as an efficiency expert at a plant making steel in Battle Creek, Mich. Consider Robert Eisenberg, 102, who in Los Angeles, works at a zippeer factory where he makes sales calls -- and worries mightily about cheap imports.

Consider Mario D. Fogel, who at the age of 95, still cuts hair at his barbershop in North, South Carolina, the one he opened in 1925. Consider Frieda Foretsch in Santa Claus, Ind., the greenhouse manager at the Holiday World amusement park, who had 400 geraniums and 500 ferns ready to plant just as soon as the weather warmed up. She is 90. Or Walter Burnette, a comparative youngster at 89, who maneuvers a power shovel for eight bumpy, grinding hours a day in Carroll Country, Virginia.

As the number of people over 65 climbs -- by the middle of the century, they are forecast to outnumber people under 18 for the first time -- younger people will be hard-pressed to support them through payments into pension and Social Security systems. That shift may also mean greater need for skilled workers, making it necessary for older people to work.

How old did you say you are?

Robby

Well, heck, Robby, I'm a teenager. I told you (or if I didn't I should have) that work is a good part of the answer. Why do they think we should retire so soon?

By the way, the first annual Cyberspace party of The Writers Exchange WREX is being held today at Peaches' place in Fresno, California. Peaches is sometimes known as award-winning writer and poet Mary Jane Rohr. Anyway, she has opened her home to everyone in WREX and Democracy in America, along with some fictional characters we writers have dreamed up. I hope you'll come over, enjoy the hospitality and say hello. Don't be turned off by the fun and games in there. We're letting our hair down and having some fun! Be sure to click Previous to see what the brunch menu is.

Mal

P.S. In case you do venture into WREX, I will tell you that Alfie is in England, Sea Bubble is in Israel, Emma's in Oregon, Peaches (Mary Jane) is in California, the Colonel is in Lousiana, I'm in North Carolina. How else could people separated by so many thousands of miles have so much fun at the first annual WREX party in Fresno, California?

Mal

Age has never been a problem for me...My father was about 46 when I was born and was much older than my friends. He had 8 siblings older and my mother was second to the youngest of 11 ..I grew up with all of these wonderful older relatives. I loved their wrinkled hands and faces. They were more interesting than the smoother ones of younger people. My Irish grandmother lived with us for ten years, at 90 the family had to put her in a nursing home because so many of her children had their own healh problems by then.She lived to be 100..she no longer recognized her own children ..telling them they couldnt be her children as they were OLD people. Her grandchildren she called by her children's names thinking they were hers.

Many of my relatives lived to be in their 90's and a few made it to 100.

This past winter my year old grandson was here along with the family for Christmas. He had an upper respiratory infection,his ears and eyes were infected. He recovered nicely by New Year's. It took me nearly 3 months to recover. I have never had an ear infection and certainly not an eye infection. My doctor advised me to avoid my grandchildren when they were ill. The immune system in the mature adult is not as strong so when you are younger. Of course I knew that but having raised four of my own I felt I had been exposed to it all and would not become ill. We do need to pay attention to that ..so while I think I am young ( Mary W I just cant help that

) my body is saying Lady you had best be prudent.

Words to songs...when I stayed with country relatives for the summer I played a wind up Victrolia and boxes of records I think NO ONE has ever heard of. Since the Victrolia was in a building by itself I could amuse myself for hours replaying those records until I learnd the lyrics.

One was a parody on My Bonnie lies over the ocean..called My Barney lies over the ocean and a song by Irving Berlin called The Old Maid's Ball and I still remember the lyrics ..to those and so many others..The walls of my home are still standing in spite of my "SINGING" I know all the songs from WWI as well as WWII ..each week when I was young I bought a ten cent lyric magazine and memorized hundreds of songs. Does any one remember Tippie Tippie Tin? My older brothers were always singing the newest and my mother sang all the old songs. She used to sing one that went Micky pretty Micky with your hair of raven hue...While you're smiling so beguiling With a bit Killarney, bit of blarney too. Childhood in the wildwood Like a mountain flower you grew. Micky pretty Micky can you blame anyone for falling in love with you?

Ah I have to go out into the HEAT and buy a gift for one of my grandchildren .. she is going to be 7 and I know I wasnt that tall or that wise when I was her age! Stay COOL ..anna

Anna - I used to sing "My Body Lies Over the Ocean" until I knew English better. It's when I met my husband, whose mother tongue was English, that I was introduced to all those American ballads. They were a very musical family. How I fell for those words even then. I wanted to marry a man who had blue eyes, so I would have kids with blue eyes. Also he spoke English and to me it was essential. Not to forget that he was so handsome. He died 30 years ago. Time heals everything.

Robby - Naughty, you don't ask a woman's age because her heart never does.

Ny analyze over the ocean
My analyze over the sea
My analyze lies over the ocean
Oh bring back my anatomy.

Oh! shoots, not those words for sure. I'm going to my woods and my river. That should give me a rest from you guys.

I have the strongest feeling that this discussion is over. Its absence will leave a gap in my life. I'm not concerned, though, because when that's happened before, something else has always come along to fill the space. The timing is unfortunate, though, because my daughter's health problem was not solved by her surgery last Friday, and her suffering continues. This forum was a pleasant way to turn my head away from that rather large issue in my life.

Thanks again, everybody. I'll say so long. I wish you all well in your futures.

Mal

That's Vilma Banky--Bankey (sp?) with old Valentino. I never saw him in a movie. He may actually have been before my time or before my parents took us to a movie.But , Of course, I remember the silents very well. The first "talkie" i saw was "The Jazz Singer" starring Al Jolson to whom I took an immediate and lasting dislike.

This is about nothing. I'll be back later with possibly something. Mary

I'm not crazy about your "retiring" from this discussion, Robby, but I can accept that it feels right to you...a year is a long time to devote to just one focus and there are other things of interest and other books to pursue. I would like some assurance, however, that you are not ill. The close timing of dissolving your library and closing this discussion leaves me feeling uneasy about you. And, please, no general one-liners. If something is going on with you, I really want to know.

betty

"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven . . . a time to keep, and a time to cast away . . ."

Ecclesiastes 3

I will not be leaving this discussion group tomorrow but the moment is rapidly approaching. My health is excellent (both physical and mental) and has nothing to do with my "taking a sabbatical" from being a Discussion Leader. In the overall scope of things, my taking a breather will not affect Senior Net in the least.

Let us be happy as we look back at the wonderful year that this "family" has spent together. In fact, there's nothing that says this forum can't continue. Under the guidance of Marcie, Director of Education, we will make a smooth transition, probably out of Books and Literature, and into another area.

Stay tuned for details!!

Robby

I dont really think too much about how long I will live. Although I am just in my fifties I have already outlived my husband who died of a hereditary cancer we could not prevent as we did not know his birth fathers medical history. Thank goodness my son had a colonscopy last year and they found the pre cancerous polyps which signifies a heriditary link. My son is only 33. We now now he and his sister will have to be screened. I live each day one at a time within my limitations.

I love the house I have lived in for the past 25 years, rather than having bad memories from my husbands illness it has many good memories. The children say its the one thing that stays static in their lives. When they come and stay and sleep in their old rooms they say they do sleep like babies and feel very secure. I have neighbours who also have lived here 25 yrs and although we do not live on each others doorsteps we support one another in times of hardship and tragedy. It is a great feeling of security when one lives alone to have neighbours who watch out for you. Some of the children of our neighbours have also bought in this street and now have children of their own. The young parents also look out for me. When I was waiting to get a new car after mine was stolen they ferried me to the store etc.

My grandchildren are now getting a kick out of "sleeping in mummys old room" My children get a kick out of watching their children tossing monkey apples at each other as they did as children. (often my kids would end up in tears as the boys would throw too hard at the girls!)

The internet has brought a new dimension to my life and enabled me to keep close contact with family overseas at little cost and as my kids leave NZ they will be as close as my PC and the camera.

I have really enjoyed this discussion and look forward to meeting again with another topic and another place.

Carolyn

The U.S. Census Bureau says that from 1900 to 2000, the number of people 85 and over grew tenfold, to four million, while the overall population grew less than fourfold. The bureau projects that the 85-and-over population will exceed 13 million by 2040. The number of centenarians is expected to grow to more than 834,000, from just 63,000 in 1900

And there is growing evidence that people already plan to work longer. A 1998 poll by AARP showed that 80 percent of baby boomers, those born between 1946 and 1964, plan to work past the age of 65. People already past that traditional retirement age are the vanguard. The percentage of people 70 to 74 who are in the work force or looking for work rose to 13.5 percent last year, from 11.3 percent in 1990. The figure for those aged 75 and older climbed to 5.3 percent from 4.3 percent a decade ago. I am in that group. I will be 81 this September and I put in a 40-hour week.

The word "old" is becoming meaningless.

Robby

MaryPage--

Believe it or not, it would never have occurred to me that there was a double entendre in those words. I'd surely hate to ever have to tell you just HOW unsophisticated I was. And for many things, continued to be for many years.

When we were on Long Island in the late 60s and early 70s, I belonged to a book club, and a small group of us decided to read James Joyce's Ulysses. We'd get together once a week, gossip for a bit, eat our bag lunches, and then start to read aloud----stopping every so often to look something up in the dictionary. There was a LOT we didn't know.

Looking back, I wonder if it could have been because even then we weren't bombarded with explicit sexual terms on TV, etc.

Robby--

Just logged on a few minutes ago, so this is in reference to a message from yesterday--"How long would I like to live?"

There are times when I think I have lived too long already. I think I just may have had all the drastic changes in my environment that I can handle comfortably. I find myself avoiding more and more. I'm sort of figuring I'll be around till 100, but won't really be too sorry if I don't make it----assuming I've read all the books I've been hoarding for retirement.

I want to thank you all for your beautiful postings. I'm privileged to read them, I know. Just a word about my dream house. I never lived in it. Every year or so I dream that I am in a sunny highish corner apartment in Paris. My dear husband is always with me and sometimes some close friends. I have never been off the North American continent and I have no French connections, but when I wake up from that dream I feel happy and contented. .....elizabeth

Thank you, Elizabeth. Your comments reminded me of the movie, "Mr. Blanding's Dream House."

Robby

Oh Mal, that was such joyful fun! Thank you!

I have heard that Valentino's funeral was the largest Hollywood ever had. Thousands and thousands of sobbing women.

Yes, I remember "Tippy tippy tin, tippy tin!" Does anyone remember "Taking Miss Brown to Lunch" or Irving Berlin's first tune, which was funny, "Marie"?

Sex was Number One in the twenties; they were just much more discreet. My mother and I used to talk about this during the years she was dying of cancer. I was forty by then, and she finally decided she could discuss SOME things. She said they wore short dresses and put ROUGE ON THEIR KNEES and danced a lot. Bosoms were not big then. Well, they were not large! Men were all "leg men."

Betty Gregory was worried about my health. Following is a copy of a posting I wrote in the Book Exchange.

A participant was worried about my well-being considering I was "suddenly" giving away most of my books. Was I feeling all right?

To me a book is not a "thing." It is not an object. In my entire life I have never bought a book because of its appearance. I don't care if it is hard cover or not, if it is leather bound, or if it is part of an attractive set. To me a book is a door. I go through that door and enter the life and thoughts of that particular author.

That author speaks to me, I listen attentively, and I leave, placing the "door" to the side, perhaps for future re-entry or perhaps never to enter again in my lifetime. Even if I never enter again, that author's opinions and views are now in my mind. I have changed over the years because I chose to enter those doors.

I have been building my library since I was a small boy. I have lived on this planet for over eight decades. I feel healthy but the inevitability of mortality faces me. The question arose: "What should I do with these books?" It was obvious that I was not going to read them all again. My family and friends did not show a desire to have them. Was I to deny my very very good friends in Senior Net the delicious opportunity of entering those same doors and listening to the same words of wisdom I had been listening to all those years? I decided that this would be selfish. Here was the Book Exchange waiting for me.

And so here I am, still feeling chipper at my age but hoping that many many of you will visit personally Lincoln, Plato, Eleanor Roosevelt, and all the various political figures, scientists, and deep thinkers who graced me with their presence throughout my lifetime.

I have saved a few books which I have not yet read and some I want to savor again but the rest are available to you if you should so desire.

Marypage I am so glad you remember Tippie ...My oldest brother came home one day singing that ...and told me it was going to be the NEXT big song. I was about 11 and he was 14 years older. I thought it was such a DUMB song but sure enough it was a BIG song..short lived but there.

Jean your post tickled me...no media of any kind to mention the explicit words. For years newspapers reported rapes as assaults. It took me a long time to understand what they were reporting. And authors didnt use too many explicit explanations either. I remember one High School English teacher asking us to name current books we had read...I dont know which ones I mentioned but I remember she seemed surprised..perhaps that is why.

Robby the library nearest me was about three miles away. In summer each morning I would walk to the library and check out three books. My mother was very careful about allowing us to be outdoors in the heat of summer. It was considered dangerous and possibly contributed to polio epidemics. I have no idea if that was just my mother's fear or was actual.

I would have checked out a dozen at a time but I wasnt old enough. I dont know how old I had to be to be allowed to check out six .. whatever was considered an adult then. Now I remember looking at all of those books and weeping. When the librarian asked why I said because I knew I would never live long enough to read them all. I have no idea how many books I have but my den is full of shelves full of books, I have three five shelf bookcases full of books and my husband built bookshelves beneath all the windows in the sunroom and they are full of books, a five shelf bookcase in the kitchen holds some of my cookbooks which like Mal I read as each one is an adventure not only in cooking but in life. When my husband's aunt died I reciever her collection of cookbooks gathered over many years teaching at Dobbins Vocational in Philadelphia. My taste runs from a-z. I have parted with some but others it is hard for me to let them go. They have comforted me when I was down, they filled the lonely hours when my husband was away on extended TDY, when a child was ill and I wanted to be there if needed a book kept me company.They go with me on trips and each bathroom has some ...My sewing room has two five shelf bookcases full of craft and project books. Someone asked if I ever used them ..yes like the cook books I look through them and see how interests have changed ..how new materials have made old ways of doing things obsolete. Like you I want someone to enjoy them and if someone asks I give them a book. My books do not include my childrens books. They do take them once in awhile for their children but even there times have changed and my grandchildren are interested in different books. Not the plain ones of their parents but the colorful illustrated ones of today. They are still young and are influenced by characters on TV and movies. I keep hoping as they mature they will want the books their parents read.

In the 4o years of marriage we lived in 17 different places, furnished rooms, a trailer, quonset hut, base housing ,off base housing, small places and large places, and each of them are etched in my heart and mind. Who I am today is made up of all the places and people that touched me. This home which I have lived in for 30 years I hope will be the last. From the beginning it wrapped its arms about me and kept me safe. It has room for the whole family to gather. My grandchilren love it ...my children too sleep like babies when they stay over. They cant imagine me any place else. If it is my Eden it is also theirs.

Robby I am also relieved that you will be here to eat that birthday cake and I hope there will be more Tea Partys and I can bake you a cake for many years to come.

Ah I have to make a shirt for my son...so I guess I had best get with it...it has been a privelege to be part of this group.....anna

Three little fishes in an itty, bitty pool!

Hut Sut Ralson on the Rivera and the Brolla, brolla sue it!

Bingo, bongo, bunga, I don't wanna leave the jungle!

Why does a gander, meander in search of a goose?

Mairzy doats and doezy doats and little lambsy divy!

Hey Daddy, I wanna diamond ring, bracelets, everything!

And there are some big time favorites I left off my romantic list:

DREAM 
SENTIMENTAL JOURNEY 
THERE ARE SUCH THINGS

Had to come back to post some songs I played and sang on the radio, on TV and in lounges and clubs.

I Get a Kick Out of You
The Lady is a Tramp
What Is This Thing Called Love?
People Will Say We're in Love
Someone To Watch Over Me
Somebody Loves Me
Blue Skies
Blue Room
You'd Be So Nice to Come Home to
White Cliffs of Dover
Embraceable You

Can't remember the name, but it goes, "My Mama Done Tole Me When I Was in Pigtails"
Is that "Blues in the Night"?

And a couple hits you never heard of: "Madness." "Sentimental Blues." You never heard of them because
I wrote them and a whole lot more. Sentimental Blues has a Boogie bass and was, yes, bluesey. Madness
has hot Latin rhythm. "Midsummer Love Songs" is a tune I wrote that was the theme song for my radio shows.

My kids all know these songs and a lot of Dixieland music I play. When we get together we sing!

Mal

Mal, ParyPage, Anna - That's how long I can stay away from this place. The woods were cooler and my sister Simone and I walked and had a salad at the shaded terrace by the rapids. Went to her place and played scrabble, left my keys in the car, had to call CAA. I am finally home to read those posts and so lovely to remember all those songs that we enjoyed in our younger days. Mal did you make an album of your singing? I would love to hear you sing.

Robby - I brought 10 books back to my favorite book store and in exchange I got four new ones.

My daughter, Dorian, and I made some WAV files a couple of years ago. This is not how I sang a long time ago! On the first one, my daughter is putting on a funny voice. She's the low one. I'm singing high. On the second one, she's the high voice. These are heavy files; please wait for the long download.

Presenting......
The MalDor Duo!!

Basin Street Blues by the MalDor Duo

I Get a Kick Out of You by the MalDor Duo

Mal I think I have this out of sequence and most probably wont sleep as I will be singing this dratted song...augh

My momma done tol me when I was in pigtails 
My momma done tol me hon  
A man is a two faced   
A worrisome thing  
Who'll leave you to sing  
The blues in the night  
Hear the rain a fallin 
Cant you hear me callin  
A whoo a whoo a hoo he  
A clickety clack  
He aint coming back  
My momma was right there's  
Blues in the night  
Hear that train a whistlin  
Blowing cross the trestle  
My momma was right  
There are blues in the night

I will never go to sleep...and wont get anything done My mind is SINGING ,,,my dog thinks I am crazy..after all anyone in their right mind is not going to be singing Down in the meadow in a itty bitty pool Swam three little fitties and the momma fitty too augh and so on... Did you mention the Flat Foot FLoogie? And that gander was from Elmer's Tune..What put the kick in the chicken (?) the magic in June that's just Elmer's Tune. Didnt it go something like this ..What makes a gander meander in search of a goose.. what makes a lady of eighty go out on the loose. etc

 Peace Peace Orestes like  
I breathe this prayer  
Descend on broad winged flight   
The welcome , the thrice prayed for  
The best beloved night 

I am going to bed and will report in the am how long I sang....anna

Oh, how I love all those songs you listed that you sang on radio, etc., Mal. Someone to Watch Over Me has always been a favorite, well, since I discovered the songs of the 20s through 40s, 50s....the golden age of lyrics and of melodies that stay with you. There was plenty of beautiful music written in the 60s through 80s, ballad, jazz, folk....but discovering those wonderful melodies of the 30s and 40s...I really love that era. Even all the Rogers and Hart creations. Musicals of that time have some of the most beautiful songs!! I envy those of you who "grew up" with this music.

Betty - Those after the war years were just wonderful. We were still innocent and saw the world through pink colored glasses because we had been chaperoned and protected until we got married.

The songs used to provide words which we could sing without embarrasment dreaming about the man of your heart. If I remembered all those words, its because they said exactly what I wanted to say at the time but was too shy to say them, the variety of songs to choose from was endless. Men are not that sentimental and if they are, they won't admit it like women do.

Mal - Those 2 songs were lovely and so was the picture of you and your daughter. What a duo you make. BTW how come Dorian still has pain even after she had her gall bladder removed? It usually works better than that, no?

Robby - Yes there is a time for everything. Sometimes it's so hard to leave things behind that we care about, but I have found that when I had to take a major decision that would alter the course of my life, I was scared, but in the long run, it was the best decision I could have made.

Anna:--A slight correction to words for "Blues in the Night." It was When I was in "Kneepants" and a "Woman" is a Worrisome thing. I can understand your making that mistake.

As you listen to the Hard Rock and whatever, do you folks believe the "older" folks of the Year 2050 will be singing that?

Robby

As I listen to the national and international news, as I listen to conversations around the community in restarurants or on the street or wherever, as I hear the young folks talk, more and more I believe in the "truth" of the statement -- "There's Nothing New Under the Sun."

Is my age showing with its attitude of "been there, done that?" I'm not saying that life is boring. I create more projects for myself than I can do in any 24-hour period. But as I hear the farmers crying for more rain, as I hear the kids complaining that their parents don't understand, as I read about Congress not doing its job, as I hear about schools saying they don't have enough money, as I read about various nations warring with each other -- WHAT'S NEW?

Robby

I read a post in the Café yesterday written by a woman who was a teenager in the 60's. She talked about how much she loves Rock and mentioned some groups my kids listened to like Fleetwood Mac. She also said she listened to today's music and likes it and wasn't at all disturbed by the words or the people who sing them.

She mentioned how people used to be upset by long hair on males. Then she said, "Look at it now!" My grandson's hair is almost down to his waist, and he wears it in a pony tail. Does that bother me? Not a bit! I do remember, though, that my elder son was kicked out of a high school in Indianapolis in the late 60's because his hair was Beatles length. Do you believe that? There was a lot of fear at that time because some kids were going against tradition as they sent us their message. I see fear now for the same reason. This has happened throughout history.

Of course, the music of that time, now and the future will be remembered and played and sung in 2025. I said before that we latch on to the music of our time and remember it, not just we, but everyone who has ever, or will ever, come along.

Robby, you hit on a subject dear to my heart. Yes, things do seem predictable because we've seen it before. Every person who grows to old age must feel this way.

What's new? Technology is new. Human behavior certainly isn't.

Eloise, when they removed my daughter's gall bladder and did a laporoscopic exploration, they found more wrong than just that. Now they're looking for treatment which will make her feel better so she can "get her life back" and go to work.

Mal

Data from the Nurses' Health Study indicate that older women who live alone are NOT more isolated and do NOT have an increased risk of poor health outcomes compared with women who live with a spouse. In fact, women living independently performed better on measures of mental health than those living with a spouse. After adjustment for age, baseline function, comorbid conditions and health behaviors, women living independently or with nonspouse others had a lower risk of decline in MENTAL health compared with those living with a spouse.

How about that, ladies??!! And what do you men think if there are any of you left in this forum?

Robby

Never forget de Tocqueville's warning on the bureaucracy:

"It covers the surface of society with a network of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, guided; men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting; such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, extinguishes, and stupifies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd."

We are arriving, our tax laws and Medicare are prime examples of bureaucracy in action.

BRAVO, MAL!

Robby, stop teasing Anna! You know perfectly well the words were changed depending upon the gender of the singer!

Oh, and I found out this morning, whilst Anna and I were ICQing back and forth, that she NEVER HEARD "Bell Bottom Trousers!" Hey, I think she is much younger than she claims to be!

Does anyone remember STORMY WEATHER?

Expand on this a little, would you, Raymond? If "our tax laws and Medicare are prime examples of bureaucracy in action", how would you change this? What kind of governing would you put in the place of what we have in this democracy?

In response to Robby's post, why is it surprising that women who live alone do not have poor mental and physical health and do not keep themselves isolated?

People who live alone have far less stress on them than those who live with someone else. Their stresses come from themselves, not somebody else. Demands on them are only what they put on themselves. That makes life easier, doesn't it?

Women of my generation are used to taking care of and nurturing people, so it seems logical that they would apply these skills to themselves if they are alone. All they have to do to be content living alone is to get over the idea that they need a man to make their decisions. For heaven's sake, women of my time spent their lives making decisions for their families while their husbands went out and worked.

Some of the strongest older women I know live alone and take care of themselves.

Mal

Raymond, with what would you replace "bureaucracy"? A "free" for All? Every man and woman for himself or herself? Simplify the rules? How? Can you please everybody? Arrive at tax laws and Medicare through what alternative?

Thanks, Mary Page. The lovely soprano of the old days is down in the cellar now, but I sing anyway.

Yes, Eloise, I do have 78 recordings I've made. There's a tape of some of them somewhere. If I can ever find it, I'll make a WAV file and post it somewhere or other so you can hear what I sounded like in my heyday.

Mal

Tonight at nine o'clock Eastern Daylight Time, one of my PBS stations, WETA, in Washington, D.C., is putting on a 90 minute show called: " BIG BAND SOUNDS OF WORLD WAR II."

As I told MP whilst ICQing ...I discovered another verse to Blues in the night...and remembered the verses to Three Little Fishes although it took severeal renditions to do that..and I remember most of Elmer's Tune as well. AND I had a hard time dropping off to sleep as all these tunes kept playing in my mind and asking myself NOW HOW DID THAT GO!

MP tells me she attended a Private Catholic Boarding school ..boy do I regret begging my mother not to send me to the Catholic Girls School and allow me to attend the local High School. It is obvious I missed out on all of the "OTHER WORDS" to all of those songs.

Off to get a frosty drink at Starbucks MP said was the "coolest" summer drink..you all have a great day...

MAL I dont envy people much But boy I wish I could really sing..and not make noise...how wonderful you can and do. I have always told people I knew life wasnt fair..I didnt look like Elizabeth Taylor and I couldnt sing like Rise' Stevens.. smile to all ...from anna where the heat index right now is 106..Yikes...

PS Robby it is okay to tease me...Remember I had five brothers and could always hold my own

BTW I have friends who say I am a disaster in progress !!!

Haven't been posting here since last fall but I have some thoughts as a last hurrah.

Gone are the days when we could grab a cup of coffee and sit down across from the Mayor at his desk or at the coffee shop and come to an understanding about making our towns a better place - not only has increased population put so many elected officials into big business, with the work cut up into catagories so that others can be hired to see it all gets done, which therefore includes many rules and regs as oversight protection (beaurocracies) but, in the name of measuring success even our children's education is seven hours of rules and regs with tests measuring as oversight portection, with little individuality or creativity honored as the prime mode of education.

Where is it all going - who knows - every generation seems to wax glorious over what was - after all we must justify our own existance.

As I have aged the thing that still strikes me everytime is that while I'm talking to someone they only have what they heard or read as a reference to the seminal moments in history that has shaped my thinking.

Roosvelt on the radio comforting us and giving us some backbone with his 'We only have fear to fear' speaches; remembering where you where when the news came on the radio that Japan had attacked Pearl Harbor; when Black Rasberry ice cream was the brand new summertime flavor and when Howard Johnson's opened up with 29 flavors; when Lou Gehrig made his faewell speach and the radio crackled as his voice cracked; the many 'discussions' ahum over the voice of Frank versus Bing; much less VE Day and VJ Day and than, seeing Ruby kill Lee Harvey Oswald right in front of our eyes on TV. That Thanksgiving weekend when this nation was in shock during the funneral of J. F. Oh yes, and the excitment as the nation stopped in front of every and any TV to watch those first explorations out in space. Just realizing a 20 year old today has only a dim memory at best of Ronald Reagan much less the real crisis the summer that we were stunned reading every sentence about Watergate. Remember Martha's exposé.

Even a Baby Boomer has no memory of what it was like before social security, when grandparents moved in or all the kids chipped in to take care of them with some of the kids struggling to take care of their children and now had this added burden. When folks complain about welfare I remember my grandparents.

At the turn of the century if a family asked for any assistance their children were automatically taken and put in an orphanage. My one grandfather hopped the orphange fence with his brother one night and the brother went on never to be heard from again. Mu grandfather met my grandmother's older brother who invited him home to live with them. He never found his parents again although he went back to the area they lived in time and time again.

And my father quit school after the 4th grade so he could work to support the family as a shoe shine boy so that he and his sister would not be removed from the family. He knew it was too dangerous to be a newspaper boy since, if you had a good corner, you were often ganged up on and beat up by the other newsboys and several of his friends were actually beat to death. He went on to do other things that earned money but not what we as a family can be proud to speak about. I have a hard time judging him under the circustances. My grandfather was an abusive drinking man and at the turn of the century women had no rights much less shelters therefore, kids held families together.

I also remember during the depression years when the cuttest child in the family, regardless the embarresment, was shoved forward to ask for the turkey or church handout. There was no food stamps or housing assistence, much less job training. And so with this history pictured in my head my views of social welfare are rather libral. I much rather pay in tax money so that assistance can be a depersonlized agency that is not requiring the poor to be humiliated or feel the need to be taking care of the feelings of those giving by acting so humbly thankful.

I can also understand that if there is little job opportunity than other illegal activities allows someone some measure of self-determination and pride and gangs allow for some measure of protective company and identity rather than being the faceless humble poor. Obvously these are not pictures shared by those that are making dicisions today about social welfare, who have not lived or had family speak of these experiences as part of everyday life. For me the unfortunate fact of our Democratic society is that each generation likes to distance themselves from the poor allowing the poor to be used as the fodder for political power by newbe politicians.

With all of that I think Democracy is a living breathing system that changes with the economic, moral and demographic changes in the society that is in the greatest number (or has the greatest checkbook) influencing Democratic action.

P.S. The greatest gift to me from my parents is they sent me to Catholic elementary school and then I got summer jobs to earn the money for my High School tuition so that I did get to go to Catholic High School. It is not so much the 'Catholic' concept as I am aware of the difference in attending a private school with small classes and high expectations and lots of individual help from the nuns and priests with not only studies but all sorts of after class discussions including help sorting out issues at home. I felt a sense of pride wearing my uniform even the ugly brown jumper and tan long sleaved blouse, brown oxfords with required white gloves and brown hat we wore in High School run by the Carmalites.

You think as I think. My views on welfare colored by the stories my grandfather told me of dentists and lawyers taking to the road during the depression. He had a small holding and a part time job so they all survived but many a traveller was fed and clothed at my grandparents home. My grandfather never wanted to see people reduced to begging again so he told these stories to us and explained the welfare system. Most capitalist democracies keep their inflation levels down by almost encouraging some unemployment this is documented in many economic studies. Should we let these unemployed beg or starve. No Way!

Carolyn

Barbara St. Aubery. You post was one of the best I have read on the SN since I first came across it. It should be required reading for everyone especially the flint hearted ones. There is much in the past that has ben glossed over and the past has become sugar coated. I hadn't know that things were that bad. I had heard of some things, but what you revealed I had never cam across until now. Mary Page, WHICH Bell Bottom Trousers? The sanitized one that was played on the Radio or the "Party" one that the British originated?

Hate to interrupt your serious thoughts with something frivolous, but here is an encore for your pleasure. It is the only real contribution to democracy in America that I can make. Please wait for the long download, especially Blue Moon. It's a pretty rendition.

Presenting The MalDor Duo singing:

Blue Moon

Sentimental Journey

A little French solo, sort of

Darktown Strutters Ball

Mal - Duo great. And a capella too. I can't tell which is your voice or your daughter's. I listed all the songs that were listed here so I can look for a tape.

Barbara - If you permit me I will I use your post for teaching English. It also gives my student an idea of what was life when we were young. The language you use is so perfect and that way she can read, understand, try to translate what you wrote. She needs some conversational English, so we discuss issues here in D in A. She is a very bright woman and she learns fast. This post is history.

There's much I disagree with in your post, Barbara, but perhaps it's because you and I grew up in very different places.

If it hadn't been for a city-government-run food commissary which gave out free food, my mother, my brother and two sisters and I would have starved during the Depression.

If it hadn't been for a free day nursery where my mother left my sister who is four years younger than I am and my baby sister, she would have been unable to work scrubbing floors and cleaning houses whenever such a job arose. This was a woman, estranged from her husband (our father), who was a fine musician and had a magnificent singing voice, by the way, which, of course, brought her no jobs at that time. A good friend of hers took care of my brother, a year younger than I am, and me. I am the oldest.

In Massachusetts there was an Old Age tax before Social Security came into being. There were also various state-run social agencies which helped older people. There still are, as I understand it. I don't live there now.

I was raised in the Universalist Church, a liberal Protestant religion, which merged with the Unitarian Church later. I went to public schools and a public high school and mingled with all the ethnic groups of my small city, and there were many, most of whom did not associate with each other, though we kids did in and out of school. There were many different kinds of religions also, and we talked a lot about them and visited each other's churches or temples when we could, not always at the pleasure of our relatives.

My college education at a very fine women's college was paid for by the state of Massachusetts because I was and am handicapped. I had to quality academically for this scholarship for four years of higher education before the state gave it to me. It certainly would never have been refused by me because it was a kind of welfare.

Yes, my background is quite different. My mother lived in poverty and died the same way when she was in her early forties, but she did not die of starvation, and she took advantage of every welfare facility there was.

I had no qualms at all when I picked up my disabled son's food stamps just a few years ago; have, in fact, thought of seeing if I was eligible for them myself. I have also thought about applying for Medicaid as I continue to outlive my income.

Everybody in my family worked when they could -- if there were jobs. So have I.

I am proud of my heritage, if not always proud of my country, and bear no shame for having made use of whatever has been offered to me and my family, both past and present.

Mal

The United States is not the only country facing an "age wave." Indeed, the age waves in most industrial countries are approaching faster than ours, and -- to judge by official projections -- could have an even worse impact on their countries' economies and public budgets. Unlike the United States, these other countries are unencumbered by the illusion that their people have some sort of inalienable right to live the last third of their adult lives in subsidized leisure. In other countries what government gives can be taken back if doing so is deemed to be in the public's long-term interest.

1 - In 1986, when Japan enacted a major reduction in future pension benefits, the Ministry of Health and Welfare issued a concise justification that cited "equity between the generations."
2 - Australia has made employee pensions mandatory, increasing coverage from under 40 percent to nearly 90 percent of the work force.
3 - Iceland has means-tested its social-insurance system.
4 - Germany has enacted, and France, Sweden, Italy, and the United Kingdom are debating, increases in the retirement age.
5 - In Chile, the average worker owns $11,000 worth of assets in the fifteen-year-old national funded retirement system -- a sum about four times the average annual chilean wage.
6 - Argentina, Peru, and Columbia are following Chile's lead and setting up funded systems of their own. Here, nothing has been saved in any national retirement system for any worker to own.

Does America "owe" the older citizen anything?

Robby

My opinion only.

If the lifespan of older citizens in the United States is going to continue to increase in length, as there is every indication it will, provision should be made to ensure that they survive productively, especially if they have "outlived their income" as I have. That's a personal point of view, but a matter of some concern to people like me.

Let's put 'em to work regardless of age, so they can earn a day's pay. We're not slouches. We have intelligence, skills, experience and are willing. Who wants retirement in poverty? Give us a job.

Mal

There are four main sources of income for those over the age of 65:--

1 - Continued employment
2 - Government benefits
3 - Private pension income
4 - Accumulated personal savings.

About nine out of ten Boomers say they want to retire at or before age 65 (about 6 out of 10 before age 60). More than two thirds say they will be able to live "where they want" and live "comfortably" throughout their retirement years. A stunning 71 percent expect to maintain in retirement a standard of living the same as or better than what they enjoyed during their working years.

Will that happen?

Robby

No.

There's no way that can happen unless prices stop going up or these people have limitless income sources for their retirement years.

I see a lot of seniors in SeniorNet discussions who reflect the prosperity of the past ten years or so. Investments, lots of purchases, two homes -- one in Florida and one in the north -- hopes of going to SeniorNet bashes as far away as Scotland, new cars, a new boat or two. I wonder how realistic this is?

We are out of the high tech, big dividend stock prosperity we knew and in something closer to the reality of making ends meet and knowing we have to extend our resources over who knows how many years?

As an aside, I just listened to the WAV files I put up on the web for you to listen to, and they made me laugh. I played them for my not-too-well daughter, Dorian, earlier and saw her smile and heard her laugh for the first time in many, many weeks, especially at Darktown Strutters Ball. We made that WAV file on request to be played in the SeniorNet chat room on AOL, hoping to make them smile with the reference to the "SeniorNet Blues". We sure had fun singing those songs. Thanks for your forbearance.

Mal

Robby - My Baby Boomer children say that they will have to provide for their own retirement income to supplement dwindling government's pension as the population ages. They also agree that compulsary retirement age should be brought up because at 65 they will be too young and fit mentally and physically to retire. They mentioned that there will be more home based businesses and large corporations will no longer be the major employers.

Even if America owed seniors anything for their contribution to the prosperity of the country and pension funds have dwindled to the point that they will be no longer adequate, what will seniors do except stay employed as long as they are able. That might not be such a bad thing for everyone concerned.

The ones that need the most help are those in the lower income brackets, the ones working for others in the minimum wage area.

These individuals bear the greatest burden of taxes. The cruelest taxes of all are those levied upon their entire income (FICA), consumption taxes and they get no break on the purchase of a house as many of them are lucky to be able to rent where they pay the real estate tax of their landlord.

None of the poor will receive an income tax refund as their income in many cases was not great enough for them to pay an income tax to begin with. They are stuck with the entire FICA tax.

Medicare is choking the health care industry with its stingy payments and overload of regualations and paperwork.

The bureaucrats do not have the answer, they are the problem.

Raymond, please be careful about saying "the poor are not represented in these forums". I may be an exception, but my income is not much above the $8590.00 poverty income for one person in the "48 contiguous states and DC", according to HHS Poverty Guidelines for the United States.

Just because someone has had the gift of a computer that cost $125.00 with coupons and rebates, use of cable access someone loans to her, spends $20.00 a month for web page space for two electronic publications and has the use of SeniorNet web page space (which is free to her) for another publication so she can publish writing of seniors, and pays rent to a relative for a roof over her head, does not mean that person is not restricted by lack of funds in almost every other way.

Hopefully, I am not alone in these forums as a non-affluent person. Hopefully, other seniors have had a $125.00 computer gift and the access to the world that I have.

Mal

Mal I am not affluent and have a fixed income. This year it dropped $160 a month and food prices etc soared. I am sitting at a PC donated by my daughter, my old one just could not be updated this is my daughters old one with only a 32 megabyte ram space. When she goes to the UK I get her other one with a much bigger ram space.

Being on a modest income does not make any of us lesser persons. We are challenged. Challenged to make the money go round which is getting more difficult as time goes by!

I am very lucky in that my children are all affluent and sometimes if they see I need something it will appear.

I am lucky in that I own my home but taxes etc continue to rise. I am sure there are many others who are "financially challenged!" sounds better than hard up!

Carolyn

I would have to agree with Raymond that most SeniorNet participants are not poor. Poor, to me, means without resources, not just low or fixed low income. Resources would include the means to think how to survive if expenses increased or if income decreased. It is still startling to be reminded that a chunk of homeless families became homeless the minute one paycheck was missed.

-------------------------------------------------

You won't believe what HBO documentary I happened upon a few days ago. I was able to see only 10-15 minutes of it and I didn't write down the name of the program. (My son calls almost every night and, for the time being, I don't say, could you let me finish watching this?)

Hold onto your, uh, hats....the gist of the program was....how could the younger generations today assist seniors who are stuck in older ways of thinking and doing things. Two examples given: (1) most seniors are missing out on the benefits of new technology ----specifically, those seniors who don't own computers; and (2) most seniors think younger people don't measure up and spend time listing what's wrong with them.

The narrator of the piece, a lawyer, was interviewing his father and his father's colleagues, all lawyers of a law firm that had just gone out of business. The son described his father as an old-fashioned "gentleman lawyer," a relic of a sort who was proud of doing business the old-fashioned way, without computers and (this was a BIG deal) whose law firm did NOT have "casual Fridays."

The father and his colleagues were filmed in their proper pinstripe dark suits and the son, the interviewer, was in a casual shirt and slacks. The father said, pointing to his son, "That's what is wrong with young lawyers today, going into the office looking like you look now." He sounded disgusted with his son. Then he talked of how one can't be certain of security, using computers. So, his law firm never did begin to use computers and they went out of business. (Maybe I missed what else they did that was old-fashioned.)

The rest of the short segment I saw dwelled on what young people wished they could impart to older people....mostly, the need to embrace change, the need to welcome new and different experiences. One person said something like "Old people stop taking risks. They never want to try anything new." By this time, I was laughing through just about every sentence....thinking about our extended focus here on what we wished we could say to younger people!! I was wishing that all of you were watching it with me.....it was definitely a lesson in perspective.

The content didn't surprise me, but to see it acted out in real life was just amazing. Later, I was laughing to myself and thinking....well, at least we have THAT in common, that the other generation needs to be fixed!

betty

Wow Betty you got in there before I finished all this - Fun but are seniors really that out of the loop hmmmmm. One thing I learned is that more of the older generation habitually takes on the task of trying to figure out how to afford things where as the younger generation is trying to figure out how to maximize the profits. It seems with that mind set the younger generation will soon own all the money.

Ha, I like that 'challenged' - I think though there is poor and than there is poor - my mother used to describe certain folks as being rich for having money - I think we could easily say there are some folks who are poor for not having money - many of us fall in this category.

Then there are the poor who are culturally, educationally and opportunity asthenic. They are and some families for generations have been socially shamed - not ashamed but shamed, meaning they are expected to believe that they, their very being is wrong or they are the cause of their misery. We all know the history of those denied education, even punished if it was discovered they were educating themselves. Then there are the poor who have no clue to the value of education. These are the poor that a temporary financial lift will not change their lives. The difficulties climbing out of these communities are so great.

Last year just about this time we read here in Books and Lit. about a young man, the only boy in his class to achieve success in his high school work to a level where he was able to be accepted at Brown University. The book went a long way toward breaking down the belief that if I or someone I know could pull ourselves up by our boot straps so can everyone. This true story was an amazing peek into the mindset and limitations of a "poor" community. Having an adult family member with a belief in something greater, who is gifted in the ability to instill this belief in a child is rare but essential if the child is going to make the crossover into a middle-class or better society.

Pride in ourselves is what keeps all of us achieving to the inner picture we hold of ourselves. We leave little room for the shamed poor to feel pride in having a right to equal opportunity while maintaining a 'culture' of poverty. For example, when a town decides to improve it's image, the first area to be torn down and the citizens scattered is the area inhabited by the poor. The idea of a mixed neighborhood of families with various economic circumstances is great on paper but, few aspiring middle class families will live among, sending their children to the schools where as little as a quarter of the registered children live in economic and cultural poverty.

We look down our noses at Britain with their class system. Looking around, we in the States do a pretty good job of ascribing to a class system without labeling it as such.

Democracy may not mean equality but I thought it did mean opportunity and the power to express our beliefs. Shaming is a control tool. As long as segments of our Democratic society are being controlled we are really playing a power game that lays down the concept that some of us are more equal and more deserving of the opportunities within a Democratic society than others.

I must admit I do not live among the poor although my income, since divorce, is less then one forth what it was. As Carolyn says I am financially 'challenged.' I can probably give 10 reasons why I do not want to take my time and energy to struggle through learning how to live with another culture, a culture of poverty, especially when I do not see how the experience and knowledge would aid my achieving the picture I have of myself.

It is so easy to point at a problem - it is the reality of fixing that is humbling.

And so I add to the dilemma all the while believing in the cowboy mentality that is the American dream. That alone, against great odds, we can pursue therefore, I can achieve my goal of continued financial independence from my children, maintain my home and achieve other goals I have for myself (my age and the ability to maintain a sustained work schedule is at odds as well as, having gone backwards by 30 years in accumulated wealth with no retirement fund). But again, I know I am poor from lack of money - period. Mom didn't raise me to be rich from having money.

The class system in the old British Colonies exists alright. Money now marks the upper class not breeding. My great grandmother on my grandmothers side was from working class stock but was more of a lady than my great grandmother on my grandfathers side. I think my granny used to say "Money does not a lady make!"

My son has a business, his clients are the very wealthy I would not say that all of the clients are ladies and gentlemen but some are.

Barbara is right, you can be poor in money but very rich in other aspects of life. My brother sat by the bed of his old boss who was a multi millionaire, he was dying and told my brother his money meant nothing to him, he had lost everything in his pursuit of the mighty dollar. He told my brother to forget about money and concentrate on the people he loved. This man died with only a former employee at his bedside.

I consider myself rich in having a caring extended family and close friends who really care about me. I am also rich in living in the most beautiful country in the world! (Many overseas visitors have told me I live in the most beautiful country in the world)

Carolyn

Betty, Barbara, Carolyn, Mal = I am grateful to you for enriching my life this morning. You reinforce my belief that as we get older we weed out the garden of accumulated knowledge to keep in mind only the most important and necessary elements that makes our life rich and productive, something that younger people still have to learn...Eloïse

Some powerful remarks being made here!! While practically every posting made here since Democracy in America began has been intelligently thought out and written, it seems to me that some of the most profound thoughts arose when we began to talk about ourselves -- the "older citizens" in this Democracy.

I wonder why that is?

Robby

Being rich in friends and family does not put food in one's mouth when he or she is hungry.

Betty talks about resources. A year ago my daughter bought the half of this house her former husband owned, which when married they owned together. Her well-to-do father loaned her the money to do this. There is a mortgage on this house which my daughter and her partner pay. I pay rent to live in this one room apartment addition to the house, but it is a minimal amount of money that doesn't help her much.

My daughter has not been in good health for a long time. It appeared that a solution to her health problem had been found, and she took a very good job. Only weeks after she began working at this job, she became ill again and has missed a great deal of work. Surgery was performed a week ago, which we hoped would solve her problem. It didn't. Her pay is being docked for work time she has missed. It has been suggested by her job superiors that a replacement for her be found.

Not only have I been worried about her health, I have been concerned about what would happen to me if she was unable to keep up the payments on this house. Without resources, what would I do, and where would I go?

Lack of money means lack of choice.

It's ironic. I have certain computer skills, which if I were younger would bring me a very good job.....if anyone would hire me. My handicap has stood in the way numerous times when it came to being hired. It's not the same as it was 20 years ago, but job discrimination against handicapped people still exists in subtle ways. I work more than a 40 hour week on the electronic magazines I publish, with the writing group I lead and writing I do. Surely, I could work at a paying job at home if there was one.

I don't at the moment live in a poor neighborhood and don't usually feel poor, unless I think about the fact that I've been unable to buy clothes for over two years and haven't had the $350 it costs me to buy a pair of shoes well-built enough to hold the leg brace I wear. My shoes are six years old.

Should I get rid of the sixteen year old automobile I drive and save on the amount of insurance and the $10. a month I spend on gasoline? There seem to be a lot of issues to resolve right now.

Mal

Thousands of elderly men and women too infirm to cook or even see the flames of the stove are put on ration lists for food in the most bountiful country in the world. A study by the Urban Institute found that some 5 million elderly hve no food in the house, or worry about getting enough to eat. They experience what the social service business calls "food insecurity."

Malnutrition among the elderly is commonplace. Researchers at Florida International University estimate that 63 percent of all older people are at moderate or high nutritional risk. Some 88 percent of those receiving home-deliveed means are at similar risk, according to a study by Mathematica policy Research.

The homebound elderly are largely invisible. They aren't glamorous, and giving them food is not at the cutting edge of philanthropy. They are the antithesis of the "greedy geezer" who has come to represent the elderly in the public mind. Politicians neglect them. They don't vote or make campaign contributions. Often their children have moved far from home, leaving them without caregivers, a dilemma more keenly felt by women, who usually live longer than men.

Any thoughts on this subject?

Robby

As I read through recent postings, I see a common thread here. Barbara, Carolyn and I have all given examples of being "financially challenged". (That expression turns me off as much as "physically challenged" does. You're either "hard up" or disabled or crippled, and sometimes all of the above. Politically correct words don't change a darned thing.)

Barbara, Carolyn and I are all women. If there are any men in here who are broke, I don't see them saying anything about it. Is it that women have more financial problems than men? Surely there must be some older men who are struggling financially. Not everyone is a whiz at making money on the stock market or a genius about saving, even if he happens to be male.

I believe the housebound you mention, Robby, often suffer from malnutrition not only because they are infirm, but because they're depressed and truly can't eat much of anything at all. I've known that feeling, and I've also known in the past nine months how difficult it is to cook anything when you either can't reach counters because you're in a wheelchair, or you can't stand very long on crutches at the stove, counter or sink. Betty, tell us how you do it, would you, please? Some elderly people also know nothing about nutrition. SeniorNet has some wonderful forums about nutrition and eating right, I am happy to see.

With all the surplus food in the U.S., why can't some of it be allocated to the elderly? I wonder if that would help. Some older people are so used to a diet that they turn their backs on any foods that are different.

Mal

If I went back to the poverty of my childhood - you never know – I believe I am better equipped now than my mother was to cope with it, but again, I have been spoiled with much to be grateful for since I became an adult which might be a deterrent in finding ways to be content with much less. Mind you, I don't live a life of luxury, if you look in my house, almost everything you will see, and a lot of what I wear, is second hand.

It is unfair that the elderly, after investing so much of themselves in their offsprings, now find themselves wanting when they need it the most. I am unwilling to blame anyone for this because human beings were born flawed, and even if we have developed certain skills leading us to believe that we have become superior, there are areas in our human nature that need to be greatly improved.

Just a short post to thank Robby for being a truly wonderful moderator. I think we have all learned so much and it didn't hurt a bit.

) We have shared so much, be it ideas, thoughts or feelings that the group became close and trusted each other with sincere posts. Maybe that was the magic of DM. I shall truly miss this thread and how excited i was everyday to read your thoughts, think about them and surf the web for answers.

I would like to have kept reading and joining in but i am having eye trouble which has necessitated eye surgery. Hopefully reading and using my puter will be something i can do again very soon.

Take care everyone and may you all have a bright and shiny everyday.

Special thanks to you Robby for a wonderful learning experience. You are a very special person and i have and will miss you. Take care, friend.

)

Idris:--Good to hear from you again and for giving us a final greeting just before we close. Be good to your eyes and do exactly what the physician tells you to do.

Robby

Over a year ago I was in the process of setting up this forum and needed a good Heading. I knew nothing about creating Headings (and still know very little). In stepped Marjorie! She and I emailed back and forth -- from my side giving requests and not knowing how in earth she was going to understand the vision in my mind much less putting it on the screen. But she visualized, too, and the day came when Democracy in America opened for its first posting.

I don't want to "put down" the creators of Headings of other discussion groups (and I admit I am prejudiced) but I think that the marvelous, stupendous, magnificent Heading that Marjorie gave us symbolizes perfectly what we have been talking about for over a year. No matter how many times you have seen it for twelve months, please go back and look at it again. Majorie chose that particular flag and placed it exactly where it is now. And you will agree, it is not just any old ordinary American flag. It catches your attention and starts you off with the spirit which has been the life blood of this forum

Look at the beautiful arrangement of the words "What is America? What is an American? What is Democracy." The layout and color combination is perfect and Marjorie did it.

Note the placement of the book in diagonal opposition to the flag. Note the red, white and blue horizontal line. Just the right touch and that's Marjorie.

And then, as you know, I periodically changed deTocqueville's quotes. Who do you think taught me how to do that?

A standing ovation for Marjorie, if you please!!

Robby

Barbara St. Aubery. I believe your second posting surpassed the first, which I applauded. You have a one man fan club now. Which is going to be vocal.

Thank you, Marjorie, for a good job well done.

Idris, it's lovely to see you.

Mal

Margorie - I am standing and applauding as hard as I can. I hope you can hear me. Félicitations et Barvo. Since we come in here several times a day, some of us, we see your beautiful work and it helps us to think about those brain turturing questions that Robby insists on flogging us with. I am sure we will all miss this exquisite torture.

Idris - I was so worried about you. I hope that your eye problems will continue to improve. I have missed your fine judgment and your Canadian patriotism. I appreciated your expert research and knowledge of Canadian history which, sorry to admit, I am in great ignorence of...Eloïse

Thank you all. I love what I do.

Marjorie, I had no idea you were the one that helped Robby with the Heading - oh thanks Robby for sharing that with us and YES, I agree the heading is a flag waver that encouraged the best from us as we dug deep within expressing our values.

Hehehe this may sound trite but darn it - it is true - with less you’re so right Mal there are fewer choices. We know each day what is important to our welfare and we point ourselves in that direction. No time wasted in choosing from a room full of new clothes or a pantry full of ingredients to assemble many meals or endlessly deciding which restaurant we will choose for dinner tonight or the pros and cons of appearance as to what car will be purchased this year or if I should call friends and make a day of it by running up to Salado or Dallas for our fall wardrobe or which spa we should attend to get in shape for wearing our ball gown at the Book Festival. And the biggie, when visiting my grands I'm not risking seeing in their eyes 'What Grama did you bring for me' rather than seeing 'Oh Grama is here, what are we going to do this time' - Yes, I miss the security of a healthy bank account but I've found security in knowing intimately what it takes to feed, cloth and keep me cool or warm. I cannot keep up with so called friends of old but I am building a life on what is.

Each day I have to remind myself - I can’t WAIT any longer in order to LIVE Fully - It WON'T get BETTER or EASIER. I will accept, what is, rather than wasting time wanting or waiting for life to be agreeable.

IT blew me away when not very long ago I read about Boethius who in 524 was in prison awaiting the most horrible execution. He faced being torn apart although, preceding his 'dilemma,' he had been a trusted Lord.

While in prison Boethius grapples with the true nature of happiness, why the wicked appear to prosper while the good suffer, and many other difficulties. At first Boethius is filled with a hopeless, self-absorbed grief, because Fortune has turned against him. He questions, as we all do at one time or another, "If there is a God, why is there evil? And if there is no God, how can there be good?" He questions mans belief in, "only the things that turn out happy are good?" He concludes "good men have power but evil men are impotent" and in his words, translated by Robert Harris, "Stop being a wimp; life is supposed to be hard, for your own good."

Boethius explains that we are only given in life those difficulties that will allow us to use our latent strengths. Without these difficulties we would never learn about or develop further these strengths that God especially gave to each individual, expecting us to strengthen society with these particular individualized strengths.

For me this put a new face on getting on with the difficulties of my life. Having difficulties I do know how hard it is to get past how unfair life can feel. But I must take care of myself and Boethius' philosophy gave me a new Pride in myself which includes the part of me that made me feel shame, rage and loss.

As they say, given the choice, most of us would keep our own difficulties rather then swapping them for someone elses difficulties.

Honestly I am so glad I am facing these new challenges while living in a Democratic nation rather then in places like Palestine or Rasht or Rwanda.

P.S. Tigar Tom thanks, I'm glad I hit a chord for you.

Hi, Barbara. I've read and heard the Boethius philosophical theories as stated by numerous other thinkers throughout the ages in various different languages. Rather than saying balderdash to the pain makes gain, suffer to be beautiful attitude, I'll tell you I lean more to a not-so-black-and-white attitude which is more of a mixture of grays, a rather existential point-of-view about life. Sisyphus comes to mind. Remember Camus? I will say this, though. No matter how many boulders my family and I carry up the mountain only to see them fall back down, We Still Sing!!

That said, let's have some more music! Anybody remember The Donkey Serenade??

Mal

Oh, Dear Idris, how lovely to have you with us again!

Majorie,

SPECIAL THANKS!

I have never been poor, but have been through difficult times. Now I am still not poor, but have to be very careful. I cannot do the traveling I would love to do. Actually, that is the only problem, so I am truly blessed and am thankful for it.

Most of the poor remain invisible, most of the poor do not communicate with mainstream America. Mainstream America does not commucate with the poor.

Our local senior citizen's center is a case in point. The individuals I see there are what I would classify as well to do. Noon meals are served at a low cost and many are there for the convenience, not the need. I do not see the poor there.

Where can we find the elderly poor? Where to look for the destitute young people with no skills and no jobs.

I can find some of them at the office of a local property management real estate man. His renters include a large portion of that poor group. Many are late with rent and have to scrounge to finally make the payment and along comes next month's rent. There are lots of non payment of rent and evictions through court action. This usually involves destruction of property as well. The landlord is the victim and vilified by the government-funded lawyers who represent the tenants.

What is the solution? Get rid of the bureaucracy? Raise taxes and spend more on programs for the poor? The poor then get to pay in part for their own relief.

For the past 10 years before my wife died, I have seen the problems that are strangling our health care and long term care systems. Over regulation, underfunding and increased paper work do not improve the system.

I have seen many times the documentation about women having a tougher time than men in retirement. The problem is well known, but the tough question is how to fix it.

The war against poverty is still being fought but poverty has won.

I repeat--the cruelest tax on those earning a minimum wage is the payroll tax. This is a tax that is levied even after retirement upon any who continue to work and are currently receiving social security. Every congress promises to fix Social Security and Medicare. Promises, promises and more promises.

I just found this in a book called "Lilith" by George MacDonald on the web. It was first published in 1895. It made me laugh a little as I thought of our discussions about kids.

"When my wife and I do not understand our children, it is because there is not enough of them to be understood. God alone can understand foolishness."

I love this book!

"The part of philanthropist is indeed a dangerous one; and the man who would do his neighbour good must first study how not to do him evil, and must begin by pulling the beam out of his own eye."

Mal - I love that Bible quote on judging others. Luke: chapter 6, verse 41 --"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye."

As the years go by I seem to be less anxious about everything, how I will live, how my income will be maintained, how my children are doing, what my health will be. I don't want to be overburdened with projects which goals I must reach at all costs. I am at the point when each day is a gift I surely did not expect or deserve. I try not to miss things I used to have because it causes stress, but sometimes it's hard. If I recall I didn't appreciate them to their full value when I had them. Only happy moments are worth remembering and not too often at that because the past is gone forever and the present is here. For me, since there is life after death that is the future that is worth aiming for.

Good morning, Eloise. So nice to see you today.

Whether one believes in life after death or not, each day of life is to be enjoyed. Yesterday when I drove to a convenience store near here, I saw a field of corn and tomatoes on the vine. I wanted to stop and take one of those beautiful tomatoes; they looked so good. The ivy we planted on the bank of a small rise where I park my car is going crazy in this hot, humid, thunder showery weather. I enjoyed looking at that, too. I was also pleased because I walked with the crutches on gravel to get in the store. First time I've attempted doing that, and it pleased me to be able to.

On with the day. Have a fine one, everybody.

Mal

Eloise, I agree with every word you wrote so well, except I take no comfort in life after death, since I do not believe in that panacea. Living each day without stress, as much as is humanly possible, brings great joy. That which is gone is done with and not to be agonized over.

I took this old lady to a womens' soccer game yesterday. It was a delicious treat, and I thrilled at seeing my hero, Mia Hamm, play here in the Navy/Marine Corps Memorial Stadium in Annapolis. Life is GOOD!

I'm smiling because my Maine sister just sent me a letter in which she reminded me of something I haven't thought of in years. The night before Hallowe'en the kids dressed up in anything that would make them look "horrible". Then they walked down the main street of town. These were called the "Horribles Parades". Was there anything like that where you lived when you were a kid?

Edit:
Good for you, Mary Page!!

Mal

When I was growing up, we had 2 nights. Sometime in the sixties the police departments all over this nation campaigned for one night only, and so the various 2 night celebrations were reduced to one, and a lot of tradition was lost.

Everywhere I lived, the 30th of October was BEGGERS' NIGHT. THAT was the night we dressed up and went out and begged for treats. Then, if anyone was so remiss as to not GIVE out treats, we crept back late on Hallo'ween night and played TRICKS on them!

Did you know this goes back much, much further than the Christian setting of a date for "ALL SOUL'S DAY?" The ancient Egyptians had, at the same time of the year, a DAY OF THE DEAD. Everyone put food outside their doors and huddled inside all day, afraid to go out. If the spirits of the dead were pleased with the offering of food and drink, the family might be left alone. If not, terrible afflictions might come upon them!

The Horribles Parades were held on Beggar's Night, Mary Page. After the parade, kids went and begged for a handout. They did exactly what kids where you lived did. The worst punishment for not giving out candy was waxing of windows. Not good if you were caught.

I never waxed windows and didn't receive much candy. There were very few children in the country neighborhood near Round Pond where I lived with my aunt and uncle. My brother and sisters made out a little better because they lived with my mother on a street lined with tenements full of kids. I never did like candy corn, anyway, ha ha!

An image of my brother in his corduroy knickers just flashed through my mind. See what a letter from a relative will do?

Mal

MaryPage, I remember that! In Pennsylvania they called it "Mischief Night" and it was felt any sort of mischief might be tolerated (can you imagine in this day and time) and the homeowners were on alert all night, how strange it all seems now.

And the towns all around had contests for window decoration and all the stores had Halloween pictures painted on them, I miss that.

And if you did Trick or Treat you were stopped at each house, had to come IN while they guessed who you were and gave hot chocolate, can we see how old I am?

All gone the way of the apple and the needle and the carloads of kids dropped off from way out of the area, big kids. We have not had a Trick or Treater here on the farm in 21 years, I don't miss them.

On another note, since it seems this discussion is winding down, for my own part, and on behalf of the 30 Volunteer Books Discussion Leaders let me just say what a joy it has to have had this "jewel in the Books crown" gracing our boards for so long, so many wonderful memorable posts: just look in the heading how many iterations there have been here.

I know you have all enjoyed this gift of love from Robby and we're so very pleased it took place here in the Books. We hope that some of our upcoming events will attract you, too.

Congratulations to all of you, for a job well done and an experience to remember.

ginny

Robby:

I can't thank you enough for what you did for this discussion. It's been one of the best in which I've participated. We do appreciate your hard work and the stimulus you've given to us for over a year. Thank you again.

To the rest of you here, it's been wonderful to exchange thoughts with you and to know you as friends.

Mal

Sometime between now and when you wake up tomorrow morning, you will find a Link to another forum. Our discussion group here, which is part of Books and Literature, will come to an end and you will have an opportunity to move to another forum which will be under the folder of Social Issues. It will not have a Discussion Leader but I feel confident that all of you folks here will have many many stimulating comments to make.

I am intending to lurk there but will not be as active as I have been this past year. I may occasionally participate but I intend to rest a bit in my "sabbatical."

Democracy continues.

Robby

Yes, yes, Ginny! We had to go inside and have the grownups there oh and ah over our costumes and try to guess who we were. Our treats were sometimes take-home stuff and often hot cocoa and doughnuts or cider and doughnuts!

Mal,we SOAPED windows; especially car windows. When I lived at Fort Knox, Kentucky, everyone had doorbells. I went to the 5 & 10 and bought this huge, long folding paper full of straight pins for ten cents! All the miscreants who had not opened their door the night before got a pin stuck in their doorbell, making them ring straight on until someone came outside to remove the pin!

Anyone silly enough to leave their yard furniture out, got it removed to a neighbor's home a block away! We never, ever stole anything or destroyed anything. The soap was hard for them to remove, though. The boys made stink bombs to leave on the front porches of people who indicated they hated kids and wanted nothing to do with Hallo'ween. I've decided all THEIR kids grew up to be preachers who declared our celebrations to be Satanic. My own family thought it was all a hoot, and I would live it all over again in a heartbeat!

Well, gosh, Mary Page, now that you mention it, the kids in my town soaped windows, too! I remember the pin trick, but never tried it. As I said, I lived in a rather rural neighborhood just six miles from the center of town. You should see it now! No,
I should! Then I'd go farther north up to the Maine coast out of this NC heat and sink my teeth into a boiled lobster. Oh, joy! It's been such a long time since I had one. Did you know lobsters were considered trash in the early 1900's and used for fertilizer?

I was invited into someone's house on Hallowe'en only once. As I said, there wasn't much going on around where I lived. The woman scared me because I thought she looked like a witch with a marcelled hairdo, so I threw away the candy she gave me the minute I left her house.

I remember one Hallowe'en I had a party for a few kids, including my boyfriend, Johnny Goodwin. He was a trumpet player, and I always thought trumpet players were "keen". We played spin the bottle. Ever play that? I'll say this for Johnny. He was a terrific trumpet player, but his embouchure certainly wasn't made for kissin' !!! (Johnny, if you're here in SeniorNet, please forgive me!)

Just finished Chapter 12 at last and am halfway into Chapter 13. That's the one where "our hero" decides to use part of his
25 acres of land to build a shelter for battered women. See what happens when the Democracy in America discussion shuts down? I write my own book!

Mal

Good for you!

Yes, we played Spin The Bottle! Great fun. Lots of giggles. Pure innocence!

Robby--

As you leave the D in A spot, just let me say how much we have appreciated all of the thoughtful effort you have put into making the group so successful. Take a brief rest, and then onward....

Oh, that one particular Halloween night, hadn't thought of it in years. We lived in Colorado, up the mountain from Leadville, CO., the highest elevation for a city in the U.S. By October 31st, it had been snowing off and on for 2 1/2 months, but we were used to it, so we knew to bundle up to go out. I was in third grade and my brother Dan was in first. This particular Halloween, however, there was a blizzard in progress. My crying over not being able to go trick-or-treating was genuine enough that Mother finally said, we'll try it.

The company-owned building we lived in (company owned all housing in town) had a front door foyer. Our first steps outside that outer door were traumatic....horrible wind and a full blizzard. We rushed back inside, but then I cried because I understood how impossible it would be to try to make it from house to house. However, I wouldn't go back inside our own front door, but insisted on waiting in the foyer to see if the storm would die down. My Mother actually allowed one more attempt and she led me out the door one more time...this time without my brother. We made it about ten feet further than the first attempt, then turned to come back inside. I wonder now if she knew it would be impossible, but was allowing me to determine it on my own. Maybe she thought we would make it to 2 or 3 houses. Trudging through snow night and day was our everyday existence on that mountain. We only lived there 4 years before moving back to Texas, but it was long enough for me to fall in love with mountains and real trees. That little town no longer exists; it was moved down the mountain to Leadville in the late 50s.

That's a wonderful story, Betty. Thank you so much for posting it.

Mal

Well I eventually found you after a lot of hiccups. My own fault really. I had changed my username and then forgotten which led to a chain of events I wont bore you with, but it shut me down for a few weeks until Seniornet put me on the right track again.

It seems that I have found you too late for the Democracy in America discussion. Pity. I would have enjoyed that. However it did start me thinking about freedom of speech and the rights of the individual in a democratic country, which you don't have in other political systems.

We had such an incident here in Sydney over the past few years. One of the football codes we play here is Rugby League; each club loudly and commitedly supported by their local community. In some districts it is part of the 'glue' that binds the population. Some years ago, Rupert Murdoch (News Ltd. and Fox Movies) decided to corporatise the game which meant that some clubs had to go. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth and one club (I think the oldest club) from the working class suburbs of Sydney decided to take on the 'big boys'.

Thousands of supporters arranged protest marches and gatherings (all peaceful), got the media on side, ran "chook" raffles in the pubs and more upmarket events and raised enough money to take the 'big boys' to court. They were defeated time after time as they went higher and higher through the courts, after each defeat raising enough money to appeal, until it reached the Supreme Court a few months ago.

THEY WON! And they had to be taken back into the competition.

I can't do justice to the emotion that this fight aroused in most of the population of this big city, but I think it is fair to say that there were very few dry eyes when the Court's Decision was announced.

I have been very interested in the childhood memories of Halloween. The closest thing we ever had to this here was going around singing Christmas Carols on Christmas Eve.

Best wishes.

Barbara

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	"No better study of a nation's institutions and culture than de Tocqueville's Democracy in America has ever been written by a foreign observer; none perhaps so good." (New York Times)