We begin with the abandon ship order and a vivid description of the terrible pressure the ship was under. How wonderful that the author not only had the diaries of many of the survivors, but was also able to interview so many personally. The details that the diaries provide are what make so much of this story compelling. Only from the diaries could Lansing have gotten these descriptions of the sounds the breaking, pushing ice made:

"Sometimes there was a sound like a gigantic train with squeaky axles being shunted roughly about with a great deal of bumping and clattering. At the same time a huge ship's whistle blew, mingling with the crowing of roosters, the roar of distant surf, the soft throb of an engine far away, and the moaning cries of an old woman."

I read this book many years before, and there is so much I have forgotten. For example, I was surprised to read that the ship had been at sea for year by the time the crew was forced to abandon her. And I had also forgotten how good the writing is.

What an awful realization of isolation that must have come over those men.

Katie

Oh, golly what an interesting introduction,what an interesting subject. Waiting, waiting for my copy from Amazon. Waiting.

Did you also put the illustration in the table?

This is fabulous!

Ginny

Yes, Ms. Ginny, I did put the book cover in the B & L table, and I asked Pat to put it in the Index. So glad you are here!

K.

Um, Ms. Katie, Ma'am.. This page has strange margins. Did, by any chance, a tag get left open in the heading? Like, maybe "blockquote"?

(Oooh! that picky, picky Jeanne!)

Fixed it Jeanne!!!

That's better!

12-2-97

I put my first post in the other folder on the appointed date, i.e. 12-1-97

Best

LJ

Thank you ladies. I DID leave that blockquote open. SUCH sloppiness!

Katie

This is such an exciting book, it's almost beyond belief. I've never seen an iceberg, nor heard one, and the descriptions of the sounds: the screeching train wheel sounds, the roaring, the moaning, sounds just unbelievable.

I'd like for someone who HAS heard those sounds and seen icebergs to further describe this phenomenon.

Finding so much life so far out was also very shocking to me. Penguins and whales and albatrosses! The whole thing kind of reminds me of a melange of The Ancient Mariner and the Titanic stuff and Mr. Popper's Penguins.

I thought the ship building by the Norwegians with an eye to every detail was just fascinating...and now, in only three chapters, we're stuck!

What did you all really think of the character of Shakleton?

Ginny

I started this book while in Florida and find I don't want to put it down. I thought it was very interesting how many men applied to serve on this expedition. Shackleton must have been quite a judge of character and it appears most of his selections were wise.

The wisdom of Shackleton in making crucial decisions at apparently just the right time to abandon ship and at many other places throughout the journey is quite impressive. He had tremendous responsibility for the lives of many men in very unknown situations and it appears most of those decisions were on target.

Since this was Shackleton's third effort in the Antartic, the question comes to my mind as to why a man would subject himself and others to such harsh conditions. It must have been something beyond the realm of rational thought that drove him to undertake this third adventure. I suppose it is the same type of drive that causes mountain climbers to attempt Mt. Everest even though they know their chances are not great.

If anyone is looking in on this discussion but hasn't decided whether to read this book or not, I would certainly encourage them to find this book and join in. It is certainly an example of the endurance of the human spirit and is very well written. You feel you are on the expedition, but stay nice and warm and comfortable, unlike the participants in the expedition.

Larry

Hello all -

I've been away a few days and was glad to see your posts when I returned!

Ginny - I was fascinated by the description of the boat-building process too. I went out onto the web to find out more about modern icebreakers and found a couple of interesting sites. The first is a fairly technical description of modern icebreakers. With steel hulls and nuclear powered engines, modern icebreakers have little in common with the Endurance. The other site is an interesting interview with a captain of a Coast Guard icebreaker. It's worth a look.

And I loved the description of the animal life in the area too: "Finner, humpback, and huge blue whales, some of them a hundred feet long, surfaced and sported in the leads of open water between the floes. ...Overhead, giant albatross, and several species of petrels, fulmars, and terns wheeled and dipped."

As for Shackleton, clearly he was a very ambitious man, and this project meant more than adventure to him - it was a meal ticket to fame and fortune. But his true character becomes very clear later in the book.

Larry - I'm so glad you liked this book! And welcome back!

Any sailors out there? Isn't it an old sailor's tradition that changing the name of a ship is bad luck? The Endurance was originally called the Polaris.

Katie,

Having finished the book last evening, all I can say is that Shackleton and the other participants in the voyage deserved any fame or fortune they may have gotten after what they endured. I can not even imagine enduring the terrible conditions they experienced.

Larry

I also find this book hard to put down. I was trying not to get ahead of the assigned pages but am two thirds of the way through.

That these men were totally beyond any outside help was indicated early. "Thus their plight was terrifying in its simplicity. If they were to get out they had to get themselves out." No radio, no track-tread machines, no helicopters. They had each other and a resourceful leader.

Shackleton had experience in the Antarctic region, he had a detailed plan, and he had confidence. "He had not the slightest doubt that the expedition would achieve its goal." And he was a born leader, able to make instant decisions on demand.

No doubt success would "open the door to fame, then riches." But beyond that something else drove him. "In a very real sense he needed it--something so enormous, so demanding, that it provided a touchstone for his monstrous ego and implacable drive." Beyond that, who can say?

Yes, Katie, their is a superstition that giving a ship a new name was bad luck. Some believed it but none really proved it.

Russ

Katie: those sites were fascinating! Read and read. The shipbuilding one is very interesting, technical, but interesting, and the interview was just wonderful.

Thought his description of what it sounds like, " There is also a lot of noise as the ice moves along the ship; this sounds a lot like a classroom of children running their fingernails up and down a blackboard..." was very interesting. The kids who submitted the questions asked some good ones.

I love the image of their approach through the ice, and the use of the two ships. AND OF COURSE, he mentions the Shakelton voyage, am so glad to be reading about something everyone BUT me knows all about.

Russ: I'd never heard of the changing the name being bad luck! What happens when you BUY a boat? You have to keep the old name??

Ginny

When do we move along to the next chapters. I'm sure none of us was able to stop with chapter three.

Best

LJ

Just finished"Endurance".Wow...watta tale!

It reminded me very much of "Perfect Storm" in that I found myself repeatedly saying"Oh God,here we go again"when another hair raising adventure was about to unfold.The difference was that I had no idea where Shackleton was taking us whereas I already knew the fate of the men in "Perfect Storm".

I was also amazed at the level of endurance of the crew.It's inconceivable that anyone could endure these brutal hardships for such a protracted period of time without even considering suicide.Perhaps my feelings reflect a weakness in my own personality or,more likely,the "Endurance"crew were iron men on wooden ships...something we don't see in the '90's.

Thanx for putting me on to this one...I really loved it!

Dale Knapschaefer, Manchester, NH This book is so exciting that I couldn't stop reading even though I didn't want to come to last page and see it end. The members of this expedition were outstanding in their ability to work together following Shackleton's leadership. They had a tremendous desire for all of them to survive as a group. Somewhere in the book it was said that Shackleton was the ideal leader to have when an expediton was facing incredible odds. It was good to see that the author described so many of the crew and the important job each had in their mutual survival. There were all kinds of skills that were needed at one time or another; carpenters, navigators, hunters, sailors. But without Shackleton's leadership and organizing ability they could not have gotten through. I think these are the difference between Shackleton's expedition and last year's Mt. Everest disasters. Shackleton made a decision, stuck to it and the group followed him. Last year's Mt. Everest leaders didn't stick to their decision on the time to go down. The members of the group didn't follow the leader's instructions and probably had little concern for the safety of the group as a whole but were primarily interested in getting themselves to the top. Thanks for suggesting such a good book. Dale Knapschaefer

Welcome Dale and Walter!

It's so nice to know that we have some others who are reading and enjoying this book!

Chapters 4 through 8 tell us how the crew managed to keep in good spirits and good health through the long polar night. Knowing that within a short time that they would have no sunlight for months, they hunted seal and penguin, and stashed 5000 pounds of meat and blubber for themselves and the dogs. When the light left, they somehow managed to avoid the despair and depression they one might expect. I know people who can't get through a winter in Seattle without major depression.

In chapter 5, we get to meet some of the crew and read how they entertained each other with practical jokes, music, and special celebrations.

Chapter 6 is the beginning of the end of the Endurance. The pressure from the ice flows begins, making the ship "creak and groan like a haunted house." For days, the ice continued to attack the ship, and at one point tore a hole in the stern, allowing water to enter. The crew built a cofferdam (a new word for me) to seal off the stern using torn blankets as caulk. Imagine the tension. It must have been incredibly exhausting.

Finally, at 4 pm on October 25, one year after they sailed from Buenos Aires, "...the pressure reached new height. The decks buckled and the beams broke; the stern was thrown upward 20 feet, and the rudder and sternpost were torn out of her. The water ran forward and froze, weighting her down in the bow, so that the ice climbed up her sides forward, inundating her under the sheer weight of it. ....at 5 o'clock they knew it was time to give up. She was done, and nobody needed to tell them."

I agree with you Dale, that Shackleton's leadership evidenced itself early. The regularly scheduled social events, the dog teams, the absolute order of things could only have happened with a captain who understood how to work with crews of men.

Thought: it never would have occurred to me that blubber could be burned for fuel. Doesn't fat just melt? Is blubber different from lard? Somebody help me here.

For those of you who have raced through this book (I don't blame you - I did too when I first read it), here a link to an interesting site that tells us more about Shackleton's background and this expedition. And there are pictures! It's a little long, but I think interesting.

Katie

Katie,

When I think about this story at this point and knowing that the ship is going to be destroyed, I am amazed that the spirit of these men didn't seem to turn to dispair. They had no way to communicate with anyone and no one knew where they were other than a general area or dead. Also, thoughtout the book, I wondered how they stood the constant cold and wet conditions. Perhaps this brought living down to the essentials of survival and the human spirits ability to find a positive where there doesn't seem to be much to be positive about. Where there is a will there is a way is really exemplified in this story.

Larry

Larry/Katie. I too was impressed throughout from this point onward, that they NEVER got warm. I, for one, would never have made it.

Best

LJ

Me either! My nickname would have been The Whiner.

Katie

Whiner II here. I surely do NOT understand how they stood that cold. Was just nonplussed by the entry about how much warmer it was, they could go out with bare hands and heads, and it was 1.9 above zero!! They said it was like a "heat wave!!"

Are these just supermen or does one get used to the cold?? Keep thinking about Robert Frost's poem "Fire and Ice."

I've actually heard it is not pleasant at all to freeze to death, despite what has often been written.

I wish we could ask some of these latter day Coast Guard guys as the children did in the interview Katie posted.

Also stopped over this one: "Had the radio included a transmitter so that they could have boradcast news of their plight and position, the attitude of the crew might have been very different." (page 32)

So I guess I'm wondering WHY it didn't? Weren't there any transmitters then?

Was the Captain, after all, remiss?

Ginny

In the comfort of our homes it is hard to imagine the extreme cold, ice, snow and isolation these men faced. As a very young man, with one companion, in north central Minnesota, near the Canadian border, I walked seven miles over small lakes and through woods in deep snow and 40 degree below zero temperature, to a logging camp. It was late in the day and we had lost the trail and were looking for a good snow drift in which we could make a cave where we could spend the night. Then in the distance we saw smoke rising from a chimney. We found the bunk house and spent the night there while the temperature descended to 50 degrees below zero. That was nothing compared to what these men faced.

When it became apparent that they couldn't get the ship out of the ice pack, had they thought of alternatives and made plans? Apparently so, to the extent that they would spend the long winter night aboard ship. In time they realized the ice could crush the ship. And then what? What effect did such extreme conditions have on the men and their relationships with each other? ". . the men had built up a backlog of shared experiences that offset the vast difference between them." (pg.39)

When the barometer dropped to 28.88 the storm came--the wind, the blizzard, 34 degrees below zero, and the ice pack moving-- then,". . the feeling of security was rapidly disappearing." (pg.48) Did any of them ask themselves what folly had prompted them to join this venture?

Russ

I think it is interesting that some of these men had experienced some of these conditions before and chose to try again.

Larry

Perhaps the willingness of these men to risk their lives on this expedition (and others) is the same need that current space adventurers must have. 5000 men wanted to go with Shackleton. Few modern programs are more competitive than today's space shuttle program.

Russ - I've been semi-lost while skiing and as the light begins to go, the thought of spending a night out in the snow is terrifying. No wonder you remember that experience so well.

Has anybody gone to the site I linked with in message 18.? It contains this account of another one of the dangers they experienced while stuck:

"By early January they had shifted only a few miles further south. Frustration of the crewmembers was relieved on January 5 as a football game was played on the ice. Everyone was having fun until the ship's captain, Frank Worsley, fell through rotten ice and had to be rescued. Another perceived problem was the killer whales. Spotting a seal, the creatures would dive to great depths and then smash through the ice, seizing the seal in it's mouth. The expedition found a hole 25 feet in diameter that had been created by a killer whale. As photographer Frank Hurley took a dog team over the thin ice, he would hear whales blowing behind him. He would quickly dash for solid, thick ice with "No need to shout 'mush' and swing the lash. The whip of terror had cracked over their heads and they flew before it. The whales behind...broke through the thin ice as though it were tissue paper, and, I fancy, were so staggered by the strange sight that met their eyes, that for a moment they hesitated. Had they gone ahead and attacked us in front, our chances of escape would have been slim indeed...Never in my life have I looked upon more loathsome creatures".

Yikes. Now THAT'S adventure.

If you haven't looked at this site, do. It has some good pictures of the Endurance and the crew.

Katie

RUSS!! Seven miles?? -50 below?? How does one cope with such cold??

Katie: I had not gone to the site of your Post 18, as I had spent enough time on the last two sites to read another book! However, I just typed 18 instead of the 23 at the top, hit enter, and away I went.

Would you put those sites in the heading? I'd love to have some of those photos displaying as we read. Found the photo of them trying to cut a path in front of the Endurance just fascinating. Also a photo of the ship going under!!

Note that Shakleton, a handsome man, took many voyages!! First the Nimrod, then Endurance, then Aurora!!

On Aurora they do talk a bit about cold damage and how they all discussed food to a fine detail.

Here's the bits about the cold:

"I ask myself why on earth one comes to these parts of the earth. Here we are, frost-bitten in the day, frozen at night. What a life!" The temperature that day, at 1 p.m., was -23°F.

and:

"Our start was made under most bitter circumstances, all of us being attacked by frost-bites. It was an effort to bare hands for an instant...Wild is a mass of bites, and we are all in a bad way..."

I also thought it was interesting how the cook would cover up the pan and point to a portion and ask each man to choose sight unseen, so there would be no grumbling.

Shakleton is an Aquarius. That explains a LOT!

Ginny

I just looked at the site you referenced in Post #18. Someone certainly likes long paragraphs. I was struck by the photos and wonder if these were taken during the expedition. I don't remember reading anything about anyone having a camera.

One of the things I thought about a lot as I read the book was the handling of the supplies and equipment and how difficult it must have been to keep moving all of this, as well as the three boats. I don't think I will ever forget this story. Wasn't it amazing that they didn't lose a single man in this expedition, even the one who had the heart attack.

Larry

Katie: I read most of the site you recommended in post #18 and found good supplementary information; I thought the writing style not as compelling as our book.

Larry: It seems typical that those who had been there wanted to go again. I had a friend years ago who operated a fifty man logging camp in severe winter conditions. When he came out in the spring he vowed he wouldn't do it again, but when fall came he could hardly wait to go back. I thought also of the labor and time involved in moving the stores around, on the ship and then on the ice flows. Reminded me of the 100 year old woman, who, when asked how she reached such a good age, responded, "Keep moving!" For the ship's crew, constantly moving the supplies may have contributed to their survival.

Russ

My wintering out experiences are dwarfed by these posts. I read this book with absolute awe. The ultimate survival of so many under such primitive conditions, much like Kon-Tiki and The Ra Adventures helps to prove that early Man could do anything !!

Best

LJ

Perhaps I can answer some of the questions. I have made over 14 trips to Greenland. I was the Navy's ice pilot for the Thule area from 1963-68 and cruised on several of the wind class icebreakers" Atka. Westwind and Eastwind. Icebergs are indeed majestic and with their minerets, caves and arches, can be awsome. In the event that some of you would like to observe icebergs first hand, the greatest concentration in the Eastern arctic is at Jacobshavn midway up the west Greenland coast. Exposure: The greatest danger then and now is hypothermia or the loss of body heat. Wool is by far the best insulation when exposed to moisture or sea spray. Goose down is deadly. With several layers of wool and a wind and waterproof outer garment one can tolerate horrendous exposure. Protection of extremeties is critical as 1/3 of ones body heat is lost on ones neck and head, hands and feet. As a boy growing up in northern Maine I became acliminated to sub zero temperatures at an early age and reveled in the Maine winters thus arriving in Greenland well prepared. It was interesting to observe that in Greenland, other Americans from the northern states preferred their L.L.Bean clothing to U.S. Govt issue. Except for ship bows crushing ice floes there is liitle if any noise when transiting an ice pack. Greenland pack ice, by the way, rarely exceeds eight feet in thickness. As pack ice prevents seas from forming, a ship is remarkably steady in ice. Icebergs are unstable and massive so the prudent ship driver gives them a wide berth. One question related to blubber or the thick underlayer fat of seals, walrus and whales. Blubber was the primary source of light and heat of the Inuit. The soapstone lamps/stoves were about 18 to 20 inches in length and perhaps an inch deep. A long wick made of cotton grass was pressed against one edge with a simple wood rod above. Slabs of blubber would be hung over the rod and the heat from the burning wick would result in a steady drip of oil from the blubber. In the U.S. lard was the common oil used for lighthouse lamps. Whlae oil was too expensive. By the way, this is the second book about the boat jouney published in the past 15 years. John Flint

John!! Welcome, welcome, and brace yourself for a flood of questions, this is so exciting!!

I did think I could hold back a little, but find much to ask even from your post!

Now where else, BUT SeniorNet would we have SUCH a distinguished group assemble? I'll tell you, this group is the envy of everyone on the boards!!

Now, brace yourself, as I have a million questions:

1. So WOOL is the best insulator?? Even now?? So the men with their wool and their slickers would be able to stand such awful cold?? Do you ever feel warm at all, even when you come inside and get in front of a fire?? What would you say was the average inside temp on one of those trips?? Are we talking 70 degrees inside?

2. Love the LL Bean story! Will tell my husband, as he loves their Maine Warden Parkas!

3. Are there actually ships that go for tourists to Greenland? Are those glaciers more desirable to see than, say, Glacier Bay in Alaska?

4. What is pack ice?

5. In the photo in Katie's URL of her post #18, the men are shown out on the ice in front of the ship apparently cutting or marking out a path. Is this still done?

6. WELCOME!!

Ginny

Welcome Captain! It's so nice to have someone write in who's "been there, done that."

I don't scare you away with too many questions, so I'll only add, what exactly does an ice pilot do?

And thanks so much for the explanation on how blubber is used for light and heat. We just finished a discussion on Tibet that involved yak oil and butter, which apparently smells awful. Does seal blubber smell awful too? Oops, another question.

Ginny - I put a link up to the site with pictures. Good idea. And Larry - so right about LOOONNNGGG paragraphs. The photographs have excellent resolution, but perhaps that is not too surprising. Photography was much further along than distance communication at the time. I imagine that keeping the cameras from freezing was the hard part.

more later,

Katie

CAP'N. Be Prepared for more questions as we progress thru the book. I was struck by the scene when the men went back to the ship to retrieve what they could and waded DEEP in the ice-water. Having been thoroughly indoctrinated in the principle that "When your feet are cold, you're cold all over" I wondered if or how they EVER felt warm. I assume that evaporation by cooling (And freezing) had something to do with it.

Best

LJ

"May the Lord help you to do your duty & guide you through all the dangers by land and sea. May you seee the Works of the Lord & all His Wonders in the deep."

So begins Part II - the inscription in a Bible given to the expedition by Queen Mother Alexandra of England.

In this part, the party has established a relatively comfortable camp (called Ocean Camp) on a stable flow. After initially ridding themselves of everything except essentials, the party realizes that the flow is travelling north and instead of trudging over the ice (very hard going)they decide to just ride the flow (or floe) as it moves northward toward land. Shackleton orders that the Endurance be scoured for anything of value. Tons of stores were recovered, and we learn how it is that photographs of the expedition survived. Hurley's negatives were recovered from the ship.

Shackleton, unhappy with the northward progress, decides to strike out to the west, which proves to be extremely hard going.

The New Year of 1915 finds the party camping on unstable ice. Worsley wrote: "All the floes in the neighborhood appear to be saturated by the sea to the very surface, so much that on cutting 1 inch below the surface of a 6 or 7 feet thick floe, water almost at once flows into the hole."

We also begin get to know some of the crew better. The egotistical Hurley, the insensitive and annoying Orde-Lees, and the cranky Scot McNeish.

Once again, the aspect that stands out, apart from the incredible good-naturedness of the crew, is the leadership of Shackleton. No detail is too small for his attention, and every contingency has a plan, and the plans have names! The Emergency Stations Bill devised by Shackleton outlined quick actions to be taken by all hands in the event immediate action had to be taken to go to the water or proceed over ice.

What caught your imagination in this part of the book?

I don't know about you, but as I read and reflect, I'm traveling with them! I felt for both Macklin and Sirius. Macklin had to destroy the friendly puppy while he was jumping up on him, wagging his tail, licking his hand. The puppy was blind-sided by his friend. The man had to kill what he loved.

Life on an ice floe! How could they adjust to that after depending on the ship? Shackleton said, "This floe really strong. Will sleep tonight." Pg. 67 But is not the ice floe a symbol of uncertainty and insecurity? The floe was part of a much larger ice pack and "everything depended on the drift of the pack." Pg.72 They were carried along with no rudder, motor or sail. Does life feel like that sometimes? Under those conditions, in what did they trust?

The "heat wave, with 35 degree weather and 82 degrees in the tent, was no blessing. Slush snow and ice made survival more difficult. Pg. 76 "They straggled across the ice." Their boots reached to the knee and were often filled with ice water, weighing seven pounds each. You would need to be an Olympic athlete to walk under such conditions!

Hunting was a constant necessity, mostly with clubs and knives. "In the beginning a few of the men were squeamish about this seemingly cold-blooded method of hunting, but not for long. The will to survive soon dispelled any hesitancy to obtain food by any means." Ps 81. How difficult would such a change of attitude be?

Russ

I think that in a situation such as this or say, a third world country where food is truly at a premium because of what we call poverty, the people are aware of the potential competition for food and the priorities of survival. Thus, when and emergency arises, the parting of a pet is no-where nearly so disastrous, or such an emotional crisis as it would be for us.

Best

LJ

I guess it does seem overly sentimental to have cringed over the puppy. I almost wrote Ginny, who recently acquired TWO new puppies, to warn her not to read that page. Still, even in those extreme circumstances, it was difficult for that man to kill the puppy.

As for killing with pick axes, we've all read of real life dramas where people have done far more difficult things in order to survive - the Donner party, the soccer team in the Andes, Scott Grady eating ugly bugs while hiding from the Iraqis, and so on.

I looked up pemmican since I didn't know what it was. So for those of you who also didn't know, pemmican is dried meat ground into a paste and mixed with fat. On page 80, it talks about dog pemmican. Does that mean they ate dogs?

Onward to Part III....

Oh dear. Just looked in here to see the pix and the new posts, and hoped that Captain Flint had posted and I didn't scare him off, and see all these references to puppies. Oh dear.

I know the Chinese eat puppies, but, honestly, don't see how...I look at them every night lying in their little crate at my feet, and they're such babies. Well, better steel self for outrage to come and read on.

Ginny

Listen, Guys: on second thought, will somebody tell me what page the puppy incident is on? I do hate to be that type of ninny, but think I'd like to skip this one: no use in you all having to listen to my anguished cries.

Ginny the Weak

Ginny! The account of killing the puppy is on page 66. Sorry about that!

Yes, L.J., and for many third world people every day is an emergency!

Russ

Thanks, Russ. I'll let page 66 pass, and be back in a trice.

Ginny

Part III - the situation gets more and more desperate.

"Launch the boats."

Four months after establishing Mark Time Camp, Shackleton gave the order to go in the water. During that four months the men endured hunger, extreme boredom, extreme cold, and the emotional hardship of having to kill their dogs. For the first time, morale was low, and the crew began to doubt that they would survive.

Gales blew the floe northward and westward, toward land. But the fear persisted that the floe would head out to open sea, meaning certain death for all. The floe, once over a mile in diameter, continued to break up. Land was in sight, there were pools of water, the pack was open...."but how long would it remain open? And yet, how long could they stay where they were? The immense floe that had once been Patience Camp was now an irregular rectangle of ice hardly 50 yards across. How long would it be befoe it was broken and ground to bits beneath their feet?"

Shackleton gave the order to launch, and "Even as they drew away from Patience Camp, the ice began to close."

Somehow, no one is yet dead, or even seriously injured. Aside from extreme discomfort, no one is ill. And except for a period in March, when they were hungry and wet all day long, the morale of the men was so much better than one would expect.

What's to say about this part? Shackleton continues to organize and lead, and the crew continues to follow orders under grave circumstances. I think that only trained seamen, used to the protocol of the sea, could have survived this. Had this been civilians, I doubt that order could have been maintained.

Katie

Katie,

This portion brings to mind something I was thinking about as I read this book. It seemed that Shakleton made the decisions just at the precise exact moment. They left the ship just in time, got things moved on the ice floes just in time, and took to the water at the appropriate time. Either he was a truly great leader or very lucky. Probably a combination of both.

Larry

Larry - the luck aspect you bring up is interesting. It was lucky that Orde-Lees didn't get nailed by the sea leopard, that no one fell through the ice, that the Endurance stayed up long enough to get provisions out, that when the men were hungry another sea leopard showed up, that the floe WAS blown northward enough so that they could even have a shot a reaching land.

But it seems there is also the "make-your-own-luck" aspect too. Shackleton planned for every contingency he could reasonably plan for, and he kept the men as occupied and productive as possible. Had Shackleton had the attitude that they were done for, they most likely would not have survived. I'm in AWE at such strength of mind.

K.

Given the same or similar set of circumstances today, knowing what is now known about the dangers, treachery of the seas they were in, being aware of the odds against them, I wonder if the wouldn't have perished for pure want of hope.

Most were seasoned, foul seas and weather seamen. They had survived before. They were not fully aware of the odds against them.

Perhaps a bit of "Ignorance IS bliss"

Best

LJ

Katie,

Your mention of the sea lion reminds me of the reaction I had when I read that part. I thought the author painted a most frightening picture of being chased by the sea lion. They sound like very aggresive creatures. Of course, I realize they were just following instincts.

Larry

Hello all -

We're heading over the fields and through the woods to Grandmother's house. I wish all of you a lovely holiday, and thank you so much for joining me in these adventures!

Back on Friday....

Katie

Katie and all, hope you had a good Christmas!

After five days of struggle moving camp on the ice flows, "they were suddenly idle . .with almost nothing to do, except to think." Pg 100 and "there was no goal, no objective to aim for." Pg 101 Isn't that more difficult than the harsh struggle with the elements?

I can imagine the terror Orde-Lees felt when the sea leopard suddenly confronted him. Pg. 102 How vulnerable a person would feel being chased by a twelve foot long 1,100 pound leopard seal! In that moment he must have developed speed he didn't know he had! The silver lining was that a thousand pounds of meat was added to their supplies.

When rumor spread that Shackleton was considering killing the dogs because of the food they consumed, "Stormy debates on the value of the dogs against the food they conmsumed broke out in every tent." Pg 105 The dogs were more to the men than so much pulling power. "There was a deep emotional attachment involved. It was the basic human need to love something." Maybe even stronger than the need to be loved??

McNeish was glad when they retrieved a couple volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica, since all he had to read before was "his Bible, which he had repeatedly reread from cover to cover." Pg. 111 In his diary later he wrote, "Pray God we may find a landing here . . . But we are in the hands of a Higher Power." Pg. 135 Was his trust in God not just "because of" but "in spite of?"

From the sublime to the ridiculous, can you imagine the toilet situation? "Since one of the items they had to do without since abandoning the Endurance was toilet paper, they had to substitute the only disposable substance at hand--ice" ,Pg. 112

Russ

Happy New Year everyone! May none of us ever experience even 1/100th of the ordeal of the crew of the Endurance in Part IV.

As the floe they camped on deteriorated rapidly, Shackleton had no choice but to order the launching of the boats. Open water lay ahead, and there was reason to hope that land could be reached within a short time. However, they were to face the worst six days of their lives before landing was accomplished.

Starting with mass of ice bearing down upon them, two feet high and "as wide as a small river," those days in the boats brought frostbite, thirst, sea sickness, and unbelieveable fatigue. Sleep was impossible because of wind, waves and snow. They were constantly wet, and because no stable floes were available, they were unable to make camp and were forced to spend night after freezing night in the boats. The low point came when, after three days of nightmare conditions, they found that they were actually 22 miles further from land than when they had started.

Chapter 5 ends:

"They were on land. It was the merest handhold, 100 feet wide and 50 feet deep. A meager grip on a savage coast, exposed to the full fury of the sub-Antarticocean. But no matter - they were on land. For the first time in 497 days they were on land. Solid, unsinkable, immovable, blessed land."

As I read these chapters, I kept thinking how wonderful it would be to see all these sights, experience the blowing of whales, marvel at the bergs and the birds, and the force of the wind, BUT, from the warmth and safety of a modern ice breaker. Again, the fact that these men were sailors, that they had a leader in whom they had complete confidence, meant that they were able to survive impossible conditions - with only one man behaving badly (Orde-Lees). How would you like to go down in history and literature as such a whiner?

Again, a healthy and happy New Year to you all,

Katie

Yes, he was a real "Whiner". Actually, unlike most of the others, he was not what you would call "A survivor". Had it not been for the others, I think he would long since have simply laid down and died.

Happy New Year to you all.

Best

LJ

I'm afraid your DL has been lazy about moving this along, so let's cover Parts V and VI:

The crew of the Endurance is on land, but a colder, windier, rockier, more inhospitable piece of land would be hard to imagine. They crew attempted to create a shelter by overturning one of the boats. "The men did what they could to make this shelter weatherproof by packing snow and mud along one side, and draping blankets, coats and odd bits of canvas from the other. But nothing could be done to dry the ground beneath the boat, which was a stinking mess of melted snow in which penguin guano had dissolved. The discomfort was so intense that even sleeping was almost impossible....The winds...had driven the dustlike snow into everything - even the very foot of their sleeping bags, which had never even begun to dry out from the boat journey."

Shackleton decided to take a five-man crew and attempt to reach South Georgia on the Caird. While the 22 men who were left behind worked to improve their shelter and keep their spirits up, Shackleton and his 4-man crew dodged ice, endured constant wet, cold and sleeplessness, and reached the deadly waters of Drake's Passage. High winds. Huge rollers, sometimes 50 feet above the Caird, pulled the boat up, then let is slide down to the bottom of the trough.

Finally, they sighted South Georgia. After narrowly avoiding being dashed on the rocks of the shore, the crew spotted a small cove. They dropped the sails and rowed through a narrow opening until the keel hit rock. They were on the island and safe, for the moment. "It was 5 o'clock on the 10th of May, 1916, and they were standing at last on the island from which they had sailed 522 days before."

There is so much to be amazed about in this story, and for me, the fact that the men stayed relatively healthy under such awful conditions is cause for wonder. Blackboro's toes were successfully amputated. An enormous abscess on Hudson was drained. All I can think is that the environment was so terrible that even an infection couldn't thrive!

Katie

Katie,

I would image that since this part of the world had never been visited by man that there were no virus or other germs there. With the exception of the two or three men with medical problems due to heart, frost-bite and the abcess. The thought of camping under the conditions described are almost beyond belief. It just makes me shuttter sitting at the computer.

Larry

Katie - Larry, That's exactly how I felt.

I wonder how many "Drakes" passages there are? I can think of three right off. Its such a common name that it might be applied to any route between two bodies of land between which Drake was known to have passed.

I was so relieved when they made that landing, I'd be embarassed to tell.

Although thoroughly understandable, I was surprised that the stranded crew expected the rescue boat to return in anything less than a year (or more)

Best

LJ

LJ - Interesting about the many Drakes Passages. I had no idea.

I think the crew was operating on the most optimistic scenario. However, as April became May and May became June, and then it was August, hopelessness did begin to set in. They had two awful possibilities to contemplate, 1) the likelihood that Shackleton and the Caird were lost at sea, and 2) the probablility that they would have to spend the dark winter there, dying one by one. The Caird had taken all the best equipment and the remaining boats were not seaworthy enough to attempt South Georgia. All their hopes were with Shackleton.

This morning's paper reported that an international treaty has designated Anarctica as an international preserve. No mining or drilling, clean-up of trash, no dogs (they kill penguins), and cruise ships can't release raw sewage. I imagine the awful cold, high winds, and heavy seas are a major deterrent for mining companies anyway.

Katie

I just have one comment - I don't belong here as I'm not reading the book, but I've read the posts and I'm shivering too. Must read it one of these days. But my husband and I have owned various boats all our lives and we never named one of them - am I glad we didn't? Here I thought we were just too lazy or having too much fun fishing. Friends in our fishing camp always called it the "Gibby and Gabby" boat and would never tell us who was who.

Welcome Ella! You can come here and post whenever the spirit moves you. If you do get a new boat, just don't name it the Endurance - could lead to some bad luck....

Katie

I see by the schedule that I'm late wrapping this discussion up, so let's get to the happy ending:

Shackleton and the other four men with him successfully landed on South Georgia Island, wet and exhausted. Because of the Caird's weight and their physical weakness, they were unable to pull the boat up far enough to protect it from the waves. In order to secure the boat, they would have to dismantle the upper decking, thus making the boat unfit for the 130 mile voyage to the other side of the island and the whaling station. Shackleton decided that they would go overland - something that had never been done before.

Taking only the primus stove, some food, rope, compasses and an adz for ice cutting, they set off. The station was only 29 miles in a straight line. They started off at 3 o'clock in the morning, leaving behind sleeping bags and tents in order to make the best possible speed.

After spending three hours climbing a steep peak they reached the summit only to see that there was no way down. They looked straight down into a 1500 chasm. Their only course was to go back down the peak.

At about 3:00 in the afternoon they could see the ridge of the next peak. Concerned about the dropping temperature, and seeing fog rolling in, the men climbed with all the speed they could muster. "Finally, well after 4 o'clock, they struggled to the top. The ridge was so sharp that Shackleton was able to sit astride it, one leg on either side."

Shackleton realized that they would not be able to descend the peak fast enough to avoid spending the night outdoors, in the freezing fog. He called the others to him. "They had to get lower - and with all possible haste. So he suggested they slide."

"The slope, Worsley argued, What if it didn't level off?What if there were another precipice? Shackleton's patience was going. Again he demanded - could they stay where they were?"

At a terrifying rate of speed, the men slid down about 2000 vertical feet, coming to a halt in a snowbank.

They walked all night. The next morning, at exactly 6:30, Shackleton heard a steam whistle - the first sound from the outside world they had heard in 17 months. Finally, after negotiating another steep descent and getting drenched in a waterfall, they reached the station at Stromness.

After bathing, eating and donning new clothes, Worsley went around the island by boat and rescued McNeish, McCarthy and Vincent. Shackleton immediately began planning the trip to Elephant Island to rescue the other 22 men. After failing to reach Elephant Island three times because of ice, he finally got the Chilean government to lend him an old tug. It had been 3 months since Shackleton had walked into the station, and poor conditions had completely frustrated rescue attempts.

At last, on August 30, Shackleton sighted the island, and the men on the island sighted his ship. It was over - and not one man was lost.

These were extraordinary men, and Shackleton the most extraordinary of them all.

Katie,

I found it hard to imagine the feelings of relief for Shakleton and the other men as they saw the ships and the other men. It was also very impressive the determination that they had to rescue the other men.

This was just a really good and fascinating book. I had never read anything like it before. Assuming most of it was true, it certainly is an example of truth being stranger than fiction.

Thanks Katie for the great discussion.

Larry Larry

KATIE, You chose most wisely when you selected this one. Great selection and great discussion. Anxiously looking forward to "The perfect Storm"

Best

LJ

Thanks Larry and LJ. I'm glad you liked this book. Every few years or so I thumb through it and always feel the same sense of amazement that I did the first time I read it.

The Perfect Storm is starting up on the 20th. See you there...

Katie