Charlie, Ella had the book while we were in Toledo. Looks interesting! When you send the tape to her, I will watch it before she sends it to the next person. Okay?

Charlie, I would like to view the tape, and as Ann said she can view it while I have it. We live in the same city. I'll email my address to you. Thanks!

I am reading the book now but would also like to view the tape.

I'm getting the tape tonight so should have it on its way next week. One of the complaints voiced about this book is that there is not enough about the pandemic itself (she does concentrate more on the scientific search - but that was her intended focus) so if after reading, you feel that is the case, perhaps the tape will help.

Oh, so there is a reason to view the tape----I had been feeling the same as I do when chosing book or movie for the same story. The book always wins. It sounds as though there is a different focus on the tape, though, so please add my name to the list.

Recent newsreports have indicated that there will be a shortage of flu vaccine THIS YEAR,until later than usual into the flu season.

A new pandemic of the Flu or any other exotic disease is certainly within the realm of possibility,considering the ease of travel to other countries.

Look at the emergence of West Nile virus last year in NY & NJ.What's perhaps more astounding is the re-emergence of "old" bacterial & viral diseases either because of unsanitary conditions & overuse of antibiotics......within the past year there have been many cases of Diptheria in Russia & Ukraine...and now,no one gets vaccinated against smallpox,yet there are still stores of active smallpox in laboratories ( in the US & Russia).

The spectre of biological warfare is as frightening as nuclear warfare.

When you finish this book,if you want a fictional roller coaster go for Pandora's Clock by John J. Nance.

The West Nile virus is back---along the northeast coast. A news report yesterday showed footage of hundreds of people spraying places where mosquitos thrive---standing water, NY subway, etc.

I'm also interested in a recent report that says our current fad of disinfecting everything (note the store shelves of anti-bacterial everything) could be one way of killing off the "good" germs and helping the tougher germs thrive. Amazing. My sister-in-law who is the world's best cleaner (times 10) has me copying her methods in anticipation of her 3 little ones visiting my house each week. My favorite story about this sister-in-law is what she said she was doing one day when I called---cleaning "cat sneezes" off the back windows. "What do they look like," I asked. "Oh, you can't see them," she said, "but I saw the cat sitting here sneezing."

I am thru the third chapter of the book and enjoying every word and already understand why I do not accepted deer meat from my neibors even tho on the farm growing up I had to eat what was put one the table. aside from the fact that they are beautifull creature's that makes them hard to think of eating, is the lime thing. I am not a vegetrian yet. I am so enjoying this book. I kinda stick with old fashioned way's of medicine along with the new and make my own judgement on what I use. My doctor was giving me shot for my alleries and I walked in and said I am not taking the shot's any more as the cure is worse that the curse his nurse but we have just bought a new batch for you and I said give it to some one else, they said can't as it is specially for you so I said how much they told me and I paid the $20.00 and never took that shot again. I am seeing also how doctor's experiment on us and that is not new to me. I cannot take the flu or the phemonia shot's because of allergy's so I am spared having to take the shot's that most do and they get a different flu any how as things change so much. With the shot's they give the food we eat it's resistance bill's up so we cannot be immune to it. Just my personal feeling here. I do not post often and or much but this is special to me.

by the time it is time to post I will have to have the book back to the libary that I had to go to as our Book store did not have it, so will lose some of what I am reading, but hope not. Ginger

Ginger: I'm glad you gave the doctor the $20. Wouldn't you have felt badly if he had gone bankrupt?

Robby

Having just returned from the same trip Ginger did where she did not get sick and Pat W and I nearly died (Fran held her own but eventually went on antibiotics, too) I am a firm believer in the FLU and can easily see how a Plague could wipe out whole countries.

And I always thought I would never get anything.

I can't wait for the book to come.

Betty, I'm one of those freaks with the antibiotics, even carry moist antibiotic towlettes, carry Lysol, the whole nine yards, and haven't been sick in years, but boy England nearly carried me away.

And there I was, still hauling out the antibiotic wipees when it was perfectly obvious that I couldn't have gotten any worse, may as well have eaten off the street. hahahahaah

To Flu Shot or Not to Flu Shot, THAT is the question!

ginny

Flu shots are good... I just did not have one for the flu we picked up in Europe.... And on sickness... That is the first time I have been sick for ages... Never missed school for sickness in the last 6 years.

I would guess that the problem lies with traveling and not getting right shots before traveling where there are different germs.

Robby

Robby, I felt that to pay him and keep him as a doctor because he is good for what I need him for was a good choice. Maybe he'll loan me some money if I need some never thought of that, can't let him go broke. hahaha. Ginger

What about the re-circulated air on airplanes? That's what always comes to mind when people travel and get sick.

Well my doctor said it doesn't matter where you sit on an airplane, in 15 mintues the entire air is recirculated, if there's one sick person all are exposed.

There was a huge thing just recently comparing the spores in the air of all the airlines and I hate to say it and won't mention the name of the airline but the petri dish was full after a 2 hour flight and poor Pat and I were on one for lo those many hours to Rome.

For some reason I still think MINE was the horse chestnuts in bloom, I had never seen such, I still think mine was an allergy not helped by riding from Milano to Paris in a smoker car on the train.

ginny

Just got my copy from the library but want to finish my Carole Shields book first. What is this about a tape? There is a video of the book or a video of the pandemic? And can you all explain the links a bit for me. thanks. looking forward to another wonderful discussion.

YiLi Lin: The links by Chapter are just links of interest (or maybe not) to things that were mentioned in that particular Chapter. In Chpter 10 (the last) for instance, mention is made of an American Experience program on the 1918 pandemic. I have a copy of that tape which is being circulated to anyone that wants to view it. Everyone just needs to mail it along to the next person on the list. It's about the pandemic itself, rather than the search for its cause per se. Let me know if you'd like to see it and we can add you to the list.

Charlie

Thank you charlie- I am in the midst of convincing - i hope- a friend and colleague to join this discussion. Yes I'd like eto see the page but remember someone has to explain how to forward to the next person on the list.

REading slowly, mostly because in these days off I must get myself focused on my research. I need to finish this dissertation in this particular incarnation- hmm why???

Anyway just thought I'd add my 2cents about this antibiotic thing- most modern pharmacologicals have some benefit- but the most important thing is to not get sick in the first place- usually we have a host of germs, including foreign invaders assulating us antiobitics or no, towlettes or no- the key is to be stronger than the germ- the whole thing about the immune system- which is often well maintained with proper nutrition and exercise. Problem today is most food is not really food anymore- at minimum I would recommend some windowpots and at least grow a real tomato or two

YiLi Lin: I totally Agree, It is the chemicals in our food that is causing our problems.

I want you to know that I have tomatoes on my counter that have not changed in ripeness in 5 days. I've eaten 2 and the skins had about a 1/4 inch thickness just beneath them---not tough but tougher than average. A tomato-like taste but not what I think of as a good tomato. I don't trust them. They must be the new genetically altered kind---grown to last longer. Makes me very nervous.

I enthusiastically endorse your comments! Oh, how I wish that conventional medicine would pay more attention to Prevention than to the band-aid remedies that is all that most remedies are. Not to say that pharmaceuticals haven't saved lives but to concentrate on building up the immune system, now THAT would be health care!

Betty, we've had tomatoes like that too - isn't it awful. What has become of us that in this country we allow these things and in Europe and many other parts of the world they won't stand for genetically modified food - or hormone/antibiotic-infested meat products?

I don't think those tomatoes are genetically altered. They've been bad for a long time. I think they're just hot house grown to make it easier for the producer. Notice also that many of them are produced so that they have "sides" rather than being round. Makes it easier to pack more into the box.

Robby

Robby, I know tomatoes haven't tasted very good to me for a long time, but these are the first I've ever had that just sit there, lasting and lasting. Maybe if they tasted great, I'd be raving instead of complaining!

I'd be a bit cautious with those tomatoes also- and I would suspect those huge strawberries with no blemishes, those rock hard baseball size peaches and of course SEEDLESS watermellon- hmm wonder where the next melon is coming from if there are no seeds? (also you can taste the difference)

I had my awakening once when I thought I was getting this super bargainand bought a box of peaches in one of those large wharehouse shopping stores- like the tomato they never changed, finally after a week or so waiting for them to soften and turn mushy i chilled and bit one- yuck tasted like paper.

Downside of living in two places- is when i am south the only access i have is to major supermarket chains and that is where i most suspect anything advertised as a fresh fruit or vegetable- though presented well they for the most part are not real. at least in the north i can go to the local markets in chinatown and though the produce doesn't look nice, it is for the most part real food. No matter what though I always grow something fresh in a container in the window and ingeset as much as i can north and south from the farmer markets in late summer and early fall.this is a practice in chinese medicine to eat seasonally and store particular nutrients.

I know that we've eaten "altered" produce for many years--brighter colors, better taste. Don't know why it's just now bothering me. Seedless watermelon---I love it. I suppose I should be more concerned with what might be on the outside instead the inside. A report recently about the epidemic level of TB just south of Texas in Mexico. Many come to pick fruit, pack fruit. I think about this when I wash fruits and vegetables.

Lest we forget---something dreadful has happened to the taste of many APPLES also. The Delicious was the first one to go. It looks beautiful, but it is no longer delicious.

Maryal

hi. some of you i know. my maternal grandmother died of the flu in 1918...when my mother was only twelve. so this book interests me, even though i read a shorter version in a magazine some time back.

back to bad air circulating in airplanes. i fly far and often. and used to get weird colds and/or flu after most flights. then i asked a friend who travels ten times more often than i, and to stranger countries than mine, how she always stays so healthy. here's what she has done for years...and what i have done now for about three years.

neosporin antibacterial ointment in the nostrils. put it on before you leave for the airport. then two final digs as you're waiting to queue to get on the airplane. it's ugly. people look. and i don't give a fig. i haven't been sick since this program.

the thing i can't figure out is why i haven't caught any of the viruses flying around.

and flu shots work for me. i thought the available shots concocted each year were based on something universal flying around in the air. here we buy the shots in the drugstore and have a doctor or nurse administer it. this year my box of vaccine had "beijing/sydney" on it.

Fairwinds: I just sent you an e-mail.

Robby

I am really looking forward to this discussion to "officially" begin- aside from the information from the book i'm sure we will explore an amazing variety of issues in public health. soooooooo neat!

I'm so glad everybody is excited about this book, and I hope to get the tape viewed and off to Ella and Ann asap! Thanks, Charlie.

Fairwinds, you are the first person I know of who lost a relative to this flu, I never heard of it!

I can just picture you with that Neosporin, I went right out and bought some, it's no fun getting sick on a plane, but how much did you put that people went UGG? hahahahaa

I saw a comparison of airline air and the one I take is the one with the petri dishes totally filled after 2 hours, but I did not get sick going OVER I got sick when there. After I had been there two weeks.

Boy was I sick, too. Would you believe I STIL have a cough? That's been since Mother's Day, I wonder if I have TB here?

I always thought if I had been alive during one of those epidemics I would be the one who was unaffected, forget that!

ginny

I can well remember the older generation speaking of family members who succumbed to this flu. If you want to check out your own family, your Family Bible is a good place to start.

ginny...i don't think anyone has actually Said ugh when i smear the neosporin in my nose. i just Feel they must be saying it. after all, how many times in public or private have you stuck your finger in both nostrils? you know all the weird things we see while travelling. now we (since you have a tube now) are among the disgusting ones. baaff. je m'en fiche.

which is the petri dish airline?

marypage...the story of my grandmother dying of the flu actually seemed to be incidental to my grandfather marrying the seventeen year old maid a short time later. my mother quickly decided at twelve to go and live with her grandmother.

hahaha, Fairwinds, don't get mad, get even! hahahaha

We don't have a Family Bible, MaryPage, wish my mother had not just died (for several reasons, of course). She was born in 1908, and used to go with her father, a country doctor, on his buggy in the North Carolina mountains to visit the sick. I'm sure she would have remembered. Alas, they're all gone now.

ginny

Ginny, see if you can check the archives of your local newspapers.

My grandmother, also, died in 1918 of the flu... Family stories tell of how she was sick for over 3 weeks, and just wasted away. She was 59 at the time. My father, 18, (the youngest of the family) was also sick and missed so much school, he dropped out. There was a sister still living at home, who took care of them while she continued to teach. My grandfather, aware of the implications, moved out to the local YMCA. He brought groceries to them daily, but managed to not get sick.

Must have been really terrible... But like Ginny, I'm still coughing too... But xrays say no TB.

thank heaven for small favours, pat and ginny.

Just watched the video tonight and it will go to the post office in the morning to Ginger.

Did any of you hear 60 minutes last night and the T.B. epidemic that could very well sweep the country from the immigrants coming in - particularly from Russis - and just being on the plane with those that have it? I'm not good with remembering statistics, but NYC is getting many cases of it.

Happy Pat W. that your lungs are clear, but not happy with the news that you and Ginny are still coughing? Good grief, Charlie Browns, that should be over by now one would think. Makes me wonder if a a trip abroad is worth it?

May Nabb, I recieved the vidio tape of the flu and have watched it and am ready to send the tape to you so if you will email me your address I will send it to you.

Ann and Ella, Thank you for sending me the vidio tape of the flu. I have watched it and do apprieciate viewing it.

Ginger

I finished the book yesterday, the end of the book is so much better than the beginning, to me. I am looking forward to this discussion with much trepidation and am counting on all of you to help make it the success we have grown to expect in the Book Club Online, this one may be a toughie, tho, to discuss. We shall see, manana!

ginny

Ah tomorrow, and tomorrow and tomorrow....

Welcome to our brand new discussion of FLU by Gina Kolata!

Pull up a chair, grab a brownie, spray it for germs, and settle right down for what I will be amazed to see us pull off here!

At the outset, let's just establish what we have always said: every opinion is valid in the Book Club Online, and there are no right or wrong answers.

I look forward to hearing everybody's points of view, whether or not (gasp) they happen to agree with mine. I do admit to a bit of hysteria over germs, myself, so this should be interesting. Am I the only person who carries those antibacterial wipes on their person? Hahahaaha

Commence au festival!

Item in the New York Times, Sunday, July 23, 2000. "Public Health, Public Relations, and a Chemical Fog in the Battle of the Bugs: "the West Nile Virus II.

"It's new, it's foreign. It's particularly unpredictable as to who could be hit nest. And it's potentially deadly."…Josh Lipsman, Bergen County (NJ) Health Commissioner, speaking on the deadly virus currently killing birds in the back yards of the North East.

"He noted that last year there were 7 deaths, including one in New Rochelle (NY) out of 62 known cases, although a follow-up study estimated that hundreds more were infected with the virus, but showed little or no effect."

I guess a good question or topic to begin our look at this book might be: do you feel you are reading about a piece of history that does not pertain to us today?

Are you concerned in any way about the possibility of another "plague" such as the 1918 flu and…

Had you ever heard of the 1918 Flu before this book?

People now say that over reliance on antibacterial soaps and wipees is what is causing the mutant strains that may someday annihilate us all. Do you agree? Or are we stronger now, more immunized and more protected? Can this never happen again? Do you wash fruits or vegetables before eating them? How about that salad bar, do you have any qualms at all about digging in?

What are your thoughts as we begin looking at this book?

So glad you're with us,

Ginny

Good August Morning!

Of course the public salad bar gives me the willies. Of course I wash AND PEEL all of my fruits and veggies. Yes, epidemics can and WILL happen again. The viruses are out there, and every x number of years Something triggers their coming out of their hidey holes and going on the attack. No, I do not use the anti-bacterial stuff on purpose for cleaning; only by chance. I have tried the wipes, but they dry up in their little packets before I get around to opening and using them! What a waste of money! I have thrown So Many of these out in disgust. I DO carry around a tiny bottle of the anti-bacterial hand wash in my purse for emergencies.

But Bacteria is one thing. I have, for 10 years or more now, been boiling all of my drinking water. I have 2 gallons, in 4 half-gallon containers, in my fridge at all times. That takes care of bacteria and undesirable chemicals.

Nothing we know about Now will protect us from Viruses, except being careful about where we go. Stay out of public places, crowds, dirty places, the woods, and swampy places. Stay indoors so as not to be bitten by insects carrying viruses. Perfect protection is just about impossible, but we can use common sense.

What is the difference between a bacteria and a virus and a filterable virus?

Any bacteriologists in the crowd?

Spray the chair or the brownie?

Ginny, I have read the book but went back to library yesterday to get it again to glean as we discus the Fllu.

I used antbacterial dish soap in Minnesota and my aunt and I could not use it as it turned our hands black in spots like under the finger nails and we could not get rid of the black it had to wear off. I think that the antibacterial things kill the good bacteria off also.

I had heard of the 1918 flu and do believe it could happen again, so we best keep informed on the the West Nile Virus II.

I believe we picked up the flu in England the day we ate at the place with all the pigeons as it was like eating in a pigeon barn or yard to me thats why I was up walking around so nervously that day.

Ginger

Pat W.

Good questions, I hope these answers help bacteria is:

http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/b817-w.html

http://ohioline.ag.ohio-state.edu/b795/index.html

viruses are: http://hepatitis-central.com/hcv/whatis/virus.html

Was I aware of the 1918 flu pandemic before? Not really. I’d probably heard of it but it passed right through my consciousness – long ago happenings, you understand…

But I’m certainly aware of it now, and already, I’ve come across other references to it – which means the knowledge of it stays with me. Most recently, in a book I read recently by Philip Roth, I Married A Communist, there was reference to it by some of the characters. It’s fun when that happens.

What astounded me most – and consequently, what assures me that this historical event will remain with me were the statistics. The sheer numbers here. They are hard to imagine, much like the loss of lives in some far away place through some natural disaster. Hard to imagine a thousand people lost in a mud slide for instance, somewhere on the other side of the world. There’s something parochial about loss of life – 12 people killed in Colorado rivets us more than hundreds lost in a ferry capsizing in the South China Sea. Or is it just me? But I ramble. The statistics showing that the loss of life from this pandemic were more than the numbers lost in the world wars combined (I don’t have the book in front of me at the moment) just made me wonder why this was so “forgotten.” The reasons given by Kolata were a bit unsatisfying – the American Experience tape did a better job there, I think. I hope that everyone reading with us here, taks advantage of the opportunity to view it.

Somewhere along the line (years ago) I came to the conclusion that I can't spend my life washing this, spraying that, covering up this, etc. etc. and decided that there always germs around us and that my best approach was to keep my immune system strong to fight them all off. So far - so good.

Robby

Robby---I agree. I was raised by a mother from a small town in N. Carolina. One of her favorite expressions was, "You have to eat a peck of dirt before you die."

My daughter informs me that many children do not have much of an immune system because they have been overcleaned, overantibioticed. She also says that the new spray cleaners with bacteria-killing spray are not good.

Maryal

I have always had a good immune system... Had all the childhood disease lightly, but when I caught the flu in Europe, I have never been that sick from a disease.

My immune system just was not adjusted to their germs.

i am trying to resolve what i am reading with spending several months in india this winter or next. if you ( pat and ginny and others) got so sick in england, imagine how it will be with all that poo and then dead bodies floating down the rivers...and lying in the streets. on the other hand...i cannot Not go before i die. maybe this book will provide the be-all, end-all travel cure.

fairwinds, I would not have missed the trip, even I had known ahead that the 'flu' was waiting for me...

Check with travel agents what is best to take for medicines and such.

Bacteria are living organisms like us. We probably started out as a form of bacteria. We can take stuff to kill bacteria.

Viruses are not living organisms. They are not like us. They live, apparently metamorphsized, forever! We have learned how to do a great deal of avoiding of them, but not how to eradicate them. Unfortunately.

The Really, Really bad guys are the retro-viruses.

Viruses can only multiply inside of a living cell. But they can zip around all over the place looking for cells to mess up.

Mary Page. I thank you for that well put, understandable post.

After reading the book I am more afraid than ever that we will have an outbreak of some flu virus - whether it will be as deadly as the 1918 flu or not - but scientists keep telling us it will happen. The article Ginny quoted from thinks so - we are probably killing ourselves by two methods: being too clean and abusing and misusing antibiotics.

Will I take any more precautions than I ever have? No, what more can we do? I spray everything all the time with Lysol (I noticed they used that in the book) and am constantly washing everything, always have. Even after my daughter, a nurse, told me I was being too clean but I put that down to her rebellious years against discipline. She makes enough money today to have a woman come in and clean - Well!

I certainly admired that young Swedish fellow didn't you? After the NIH wouldn't give him a grant because of the Army, with their huge plane and all their gear and equippage, were going to duplicate his study, he went ahead with a small grant of $10,000 and he succeeded and the Army failed to get samples. The power of the individual over the bureaucracy - I loved that. And how about the Swedish government allowing their medical students to take all the time they want to graduate - even 17 years I think (must be just the wealthy ones that can afford it that long).

They sprayed for mosquitoes in a few sections around Boston recently because of some dead crows and the fear of West Nile virus. They finally had to tell people top stop bringing dead crows to the public health offices because they were overwhelmed…

The reference I was trying to find is right in the prologue: the 1918 flu virus killed more Americans. Americans “in a single year than died in battle in World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War.” And “killed more people in a few months’ time than any other illness in the history of the world.” Now those are astounding and hard to comprehenf facts!

Re the “possibility of another "plague" such as the 1918 flu”, Ginny: I’d have to say I’m not concerned because of the faith in science and the ability to attack disease. On the other hand, it was just this type of attitude prior to 1918 that made the pandemic so traumatic for the populace. Made, in Kolata’s words, “a mockery of the newfound optimism.” They thought they were immune to those types of things. The fact that they were dead wrong about that was part of the reason cited for the fact that the pandemic was forgotten as quickly as possible – it didn’t fit into the prevalent worldview that science could conquer nature, etc.

Re: antibacterial soaps being a contributing factor to the increasing resistance of some strains of virus. Sure – I believe that is true. I think it’s pretty well established scientifically. That and another factor that is often cited: Not taking the complete regimen of doses of medicines which tends to only weaken infections, thus enabling them to become immune to it’s effects. [cross-posted with Ella]

We had an old-fashioned family doctor for my children, because he lived in our little town.. His premise on antibiotics.. if the child's fever could not be brought down with aspirin and cold baths, he might prescribe penicillin. He felt the child should be given a chance to recover on their own, thus building an immunity.

The anti-bacterial stuff is forcing BACTERIA to mutate into stronger and more resistant BACTERIA.

Bacteria does not cause the flu.

Colds and flu come from Viruses.

Anti-bacterial cleaning does nothing to or for viruses.

To avoid a virus, you must avoid contact with other people: their blood, their spittle. You must keep mice out of your house and mosquitoes from in and around your property. Stay away from wild life and such.

We have 3 big virus threats in this country right now: Aids, the West Nile and the Hanta virus. There are already whole books out on the latter.

Sounds like a wise family doc, Pat.

I put up a picture (a representation really) of a cutout of a flu virus, up top. We'll try and change the images daily from a number that have been culled from around the net and gathered for you right here. Thanks also, Virginia for the links. I put those up top for easy reference at any time.

But, but, but.....my recent extended stay (living) in the northwest opened my eyes to ecoli bacteria. It's a killer. Eat undercooked hamburgers with it or have it served with hands that didn't wash (mom's, dad's, waitress, etc.) and if you delay a day too long getting to the hospital, it's too late. There were so many instances of ecoli deaths---all traced back to meat---that I went months without eating any beef (probably good for me, anyway) and I still nervously inspect a hamburger to see that there isn't even a hint of pink still left.

Today, here in Texas, the Nova and (???)one other special told alarming percentages of TB diagnoses all along the California and Texas borders. How far do peaches, tomatoes, etc. get shipped inland? How many new Houston citizens---an international mix to rival San Francisco's---are working in the grocery warehouse that delivers my groceries?

20/20, or was it Sixty Minutes, did a country-wide study comparing bacteria and pesticides found on "regular" and "organic" fruit and vegetables. Neither had any traces of pesticides---the original marketing reason for buying "organic." Both had alarming levels of ecoli bacteria, slightly higher in "organic.". The highest levels were found in prepackaged salad greens---slightly higher for "organic" prepackaged salads. Green beans also had measurable traces of ecoli--both categories.

After trying out several people to clean my house and do other errand-type tasks that are too much for me physically, I've found a wonderful young woman from Columbia (who charges too much, but I'm lucky to find her anyway). (She became a U.S. citizen in a ceremony yesterday.) It occured to me last week to ask her to wash her hands when she comes in. (my baby niece, nephews, chemotherapy-ravaged-immune system of sister-in-law, me) I stood right there and watched her run her hands under cold water, no soap, and she was through washing her hands. All these months, we've worked on---what the baby might touch, what sister-in-law might touch---should it be straight Lysol, etc. I can't believe I was able to think instantly of a non-embarrassing way to "teach" her how to wash hands. I said, oh, that's just how I used to do it until my sister-in-law taught me how. I actually demonstrated---warm water, soaping just past wrists, soaping faucet knobs that pre-washed hands turned on, rinsing hands, rinsing knobs.

I know it sounds like I'm going overboard---actually, I've decided that washing hands is going to be the one thing that will make the most difference (after washing vegetables and fruit, of course).

A washing-hands story. During the last hospitalization of my sister-in-law (in one year--2 kinds chemo, radiation, 2 surgeries, birth of baby one month after start of first chemo), she was at an all-time immune system low, so my brother stayed with her around the clock to ask each nurse and doctor to wash their hands before touching her. I want you to know that only one nurse washed her hands without being asked first. A hospital-wide policy, but obviously not being enforced. The most obstinant? Several doctors. This is the hospital that just got rated number one cancer center in the country, M.D. Anderson. I still want the 2 of them to write this up and either send it to the hospital director---or, better yet, for publishing in a medical journal.

The more I read the news, the more I am thankful that 20 years ago I became a vegetarian. Not that vegetables are always "clean" but the odds are better.

Robby

I am with you all the way on hand washing, Betty. Mine get washed WITH SOAP twice every time I arrive home, in addition to many other times during the day.

And Robby, I and most of my family have been partial vegetarians for years. For me it started as a health thing suggested by my doctor. With my granddaughters it seems to be almost a philosophy. My son and several granddaughters will not touch meat, period. I don't bring it in the house, but have been known to cheat a tad when out. We all eat fish, seafood and fowl.

Mary Page and Betty: As I read your posts I saw the dilemma we are in - on the one hand, we are being told we are too clean, using antibacterial soaps, sprays, etc., and on the other hand, we are being warned about new virus (viri, viruses?) to come. Of course, I realize that bacteria is spread by contact and therefore sanitation is a necessary course of action. But what to do about virus?

We do rely, as Charlie stated, on our scientists; everyday in the news we read of a new astonishing development in the field of medicine. Why wouldn't we have great faith? But I do believe I read somewhere in the book that as we get our flu shots in the fall, they are outdated. It took months to make up the vaccines for the latest strain of virus and in that time another virus may have cropped up.

I remember having great faith in our scientists and scientific knowledge, and still do in the theoretical or research stage, but I have gradually lost all faith in medical and scientific implementation, enforcement. We do a wretched job of every day health "care," so I can't imagine that we would do a good job in a health care emergency. AIDS.

I have had physicians tell me that patients come in asking for an anti-biotic to help them with their upper respiratory infection. They would insist on these anti-bacterial medications that they had heard of even though the physician would tell them that it had no effect on a virus. Ultimately the physician would give them this anti-bacterial because if they didn't, the patient would go to another physician until they got what they wanted.

And then (here is where the power of the mind over the body comes in), they sometimes got better because they had been given something (placebo effect) to "cure" them.

Robby

Lest anyone think that I do not believe in handwashing, I certainly do. Especially when I am teaching, I come into contact with many many different hands, papers, sneezes, coughs, desks, doornobs and whathaveyous. I wash my hands frequently. I am also careful to wash my hands after I get home from shopping and before putting the food away.

And I am really careful with food. Chicken should not be placed back in that little tray it comes in after you wash it. All surfaces should be cleaned after preparing chicken.

But, as we have been talking about, viruses are a whole different kettle of fish. Robby's example is instructive. So many people ask for an antibiotic when they have a virus, not a bacterial infection. Thus, more and more strains of bacteria become resistant to antibiotics.

Maryal

betty raises a good point. The pure science is generally ok - it's the politics that is considered when implementing health care policy that seems to make some of our health care initiatives suspect, don't you think? We even saw that in Kolata's book. The Swine Flu virus episode as reported in the book and the lingering suspicion that Guillain-Barre Syndrome was one of the "side effects" if you will of those political decisions is just one example. Drug costs are another recent example of health care policy being influenced, arguably too strongly by the manufacturers.

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Ella - What about flu shots, though? Does the data support their overall effectiveness? I think so, but I could be wrong.

Robbie mentions an interesting story. What with the internet and the availability of 'information' - there must be a lot of self prescribing going on these days. I know that those manufacturers free samples are fairly readily available at the doctor's office.

Same with me. I wash my hands regularly too. If I have been touching (or even near) patients in the hospital or nursing home, I then wash my hands 3 times one right after the other.

Robby

Out damned spot!

Charlie: But life is NOT a walking shadow!!

Robby

Charlie---I get a flu shot every year. This has been my procedure since about twelve years ago when I fought off a flu almost all of second semester. Then I succombed. Every cell in my body hurt. I was afraid I would die; then I prayed that I would. There was NO comfortable position to lie down in. I vowed to myself that I would never skip a flu shot again, no matter what the risks were.

Even though my students have all had flu shots, they are in contact with many other people, especially when they go home for Christmas. The come from all over the country, change planes in half the airports in this nation, and bring back with them a stew of whoknowswhat.

Of course, even with the flu shot, one is not safe. The best those who prepare them can do is to include those strains of flu that they THINK will be a problem the following winter. Sometimes they miss.

Maryal

Pontius Pilate washed his hands many many times also!

This is a good place to remind ourselves that if health in the community is much better than at the beginning of the century, it is due to the realization of the importance of public health measures -- washing hands regularly, washing foods, keeping clothes clean, taking showers, toilet procedures, etc. etc. -- as being even more important than any developments regarding medication. Preventing rather than curing. Examine the public health measures of many of the "developing" nations and then ask why so many people die from so many diseases.

Is everyone one here acquainted with the term "iatrogenic?" Does everyone know the place to try to stay from for health reasons?

Robby

Since Miami is a port city Tuberculosis has become a real problem again. People with AIDS are very prone to it. Many people who have the disease don't complete taking the medications as prescribed. Some tuberculosis has become drug resistant. If you should contract this strain there probably is no cure. Many people enter the country illegally with this disease, as well as, others.

When I was in nurses' training there were special hospital sanitoriums. I don't now if all of them are closed or not, but the one we trained in no longer exists.

robby, i've never heard the word "iatrogenic" but i'll bet you're referring to hospitals as places to avoid...dangerous places for bugs and viruses...staphlococcus etc.

the virus that scares me spitless is the ebola. thankfully, it seemed to go back into hiding.

didn't it?

Fairwinds, the ebola virus, just like all of its extended family, is lurking Somewhere.

But our book tells us viruses can be killed in blue ultraviolet light. And then that is ALL it says about that! Now I read a book on bacteria, viruses and fungi a couple of years ago which, I swear (except my memory is weak these days) said viruses Could Not Be Killed, but would expire if they had no cells to live in.

Can we Live in ultra violet light? Sounds good to me! I also get confused about my original book being so adamant that a virus is not a living creature such as we are and bacteria are, and then goes on to speak of them living and dying?

Hey, maybe they are aliens from outer space! Everyone sufficiently spooked?

Robby, I do not believe I have ever seen or heard that word. Looked it up, so now I know something induced in a patient by a doctor's words or deeds. Now, WHERE should we stay away from?

An iatrogenic illness is one caused by the medical profession. You go to the hospital for a specific reason and come back with a respiratory illness that you didn't have before. That is "iatrogenic." A hospital has more germs than any other place in the community. If the physicians and nurses are not keeping themselves as sterile as they should or the facilities are not sterile, you could very well pick up an illness. This is not uncommon.

Robby

Seems like with every report I hear on illnesses, bugs, etc., contracted in hospitals, the statistics get worse. I do know that as my sister-in-law's immune system deteriorated late spring, she worked hard to stay out of any hospital or clinic environment, trying to make appointments at 9 PM to avoid high peak patient traffic times, which, as I understand it, was not the worst of the threats.

Have I already written about this new hospital in Chicago? I think it's been open a year?? The entire focus is on patient comfort and ease---based on the theory that happy patients will heal faster and spend less time in the hospital. The first year's average number of days spent in the hospital is proof that the theory was correct. Each patient has a private room with a view of nature. (That cuts in half the number of people coming into the room with various germs.) It avoids the patient being awakened in the night when a 2nd patient is being cared for. Privacy is protected. The patient is calmer and begins healing faster.

Another innovation is a doctors' and nurses' sink just inside the patient's room for hand washing. It's an immediate reminder. Staff do not have to go inside the patient's bathroom or down the hall to wash hands.

The best part. There is no admissions department. You are met at a reception area just inside the front door of the hospital and escorted to your room. Within minutes, a person comes into your room to complete admissions paper work. I'm moving to Chicago.

Added---Robby, we were posting at the same time on the same subject.

Oh, it has been a joke in my family forever: "Don't go to a hospital or doctor's office unless you want to get sick!"

We are just kidding, but it seems to run true.

On the news tonight---researchers have broken through the final mysteries of cholera. Now they know exactly how it manifests in the body.

I did not grow up in a small town in NC but both my grandma and mother used that same phrase about eating a peck or dirt. I am happy to read the posts where people are re-thinking the overuse of antibiotics and "antibacterials". One of the areas I used to be very concerned about when I was younger and my children were young, were those doctors quick to give antibiotics for sore throats that the immediately called strep. I used to always ask- how do you know its strep if you did not take a culture? and I always insisted they take cultures for any sore throat and only accepted the antibiotic if it were positive. I'd like to think I really helped my kids.

When I was a boy, we always called it the "living room." I never knew why.

Robby

When at the first signs of a cold of any kind, I use Eucalptus oil. When we were in England I had my oil and used it. When I am home I put it in a medicine part of a heat humidifier over night and then it provides oxygen also (very important) from the steam and and the medicine in (Halls menthol) which is Eucalptus oil and it works for me. I think steam heat was a very important thing to my grandparants living in to there nineties.

The 1918 flu was spread by bird into the pig and then from pork to humans.

I was talking to my neibors to night and they agree that birds carry germs from all over and infect us. How do you feel about all of this. (Eucalptus oil) Birds etc.?

Ginger: Once again showing dangers of meat.

Robby

Many times it turns out to be close proximity to the droppings of animals that get us into trouble. And birds, yes - Ginger. I guess crows are a carrier of the West Nile Virus. And wasn't it some kind of pet store birds that was suspected of the initial spread last year?

From what I have heard about that West Nile Virus, there is a mosquito that bites and infects the bird. The unfected bird then flies and probably gets bit bu another mosquito. That mosquito could also bite and infect a human. So it would behoove us to do what we can to protect ourselves against these insects. I have not heard of any particular mosquito involved.

Both Malaria and Yellow Fever are carried by Particular mosquitos. Yellow Fever killed alot of people in the early days of Florida's history. People do occasionally get malaria.

Hospitals do indeed have lots of germs in them. After all that is where sick people go. Many antibiotics have also become resistant to organisms. Could the day come when antibiotics will no longer be useful? One reason they try to limit the visits of children under 12 is that they are most likely to carry communicable disease.

Charlie, The West Nile Virus is our next concern. I have heard of it. This all reminds me of the movie the birds, so they are getting us another way. Scary to me.

Robby, Yes I to eat less meat now but do eat chcken but am getting concern about that now. The vegetable would be fine if they did not put so much of the perseveties on them as that gives me probalems also. OH What to do.

Ginger

Louise, I was just about to post to you and the phone kicked me off so I went to buy printer paper.

Thanks for the information that Tuberculosis is on the rise. The birds and the mosquito's, was very informative and good to know also. At least we know about these things now but what to do about them?

Ginger

Louise - I heard it said the other night on the news, that mosquitoes are amongst nature's most efficient disease delivery systems. Think of it - what an odd and potentially deadly little insect!

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Virginia - "Oh, what to do" indeed. It can be frustrating, can't it? This is where many people just throw up their hands and say: "It'll always be something that'll kill me - so I'll just eat what I like." Smokers hide behind this mask of futility, too: "Why quit? I enjoy it. You can't live forever."

Reminds me of an old Joe Jackson song: Everything Gives You Cancer (sung very upbeat - chachacha).

Thinking about your ruminations on was the epidemic "buried" and if so why- I wonder if back in those days there were the same kinds of economic concerns that can risk public health as there are today. So I wonder if the epidemic was suppressed because it would effect the pork industry, politicians felt powerless and would not admit to the epidemic for fear of constituent retribution, ??? For me an interesting observation is the epidemic seemed to take hold just about the same time as the AMA. This was a period in American history where natural and popular health movements were under assault by what we now know was a major political influence. The training of doctors and the credentially through this society was a major cultural change. The AMA's platform was "science"- the new god for the 20th century. I wonder if suppression was necessary to give the AMA its foothold. Can you imagine where we'd be today if they had to admit to an epidemic that AMA doctors and Science could not halt? Can you imagine today if a naturopath or populist came up with a simple "cause" or low and behold preventive or cure for the disease? At minimum "lotta bucks at stake here"

I wonder if the 1918 Flu has something in common with the war never talked about---the war in Korea. Both had close proximity to the end of a world war. Focus was on renewal. From a relative sense, if it seemed smaller than a world war, why pay much attention to it. Besides, people were exhausted.

I can't remember if this book mentions the Korean war, but the Tom Brokaw discussion has spent a while wondering at the odd silence about it.

Really interesting comments, YiLi.

Betty, I think you may have grabbed hold of it.

There are times in our lives when we become overwhelmed by events we have not a shred of control over. There are times in our lives when we live with a dreadful circumstance for so long that we never want to speak of it again when it has passed.

Men come home from wars and do not want to mention what they have experienced. People go through ghastly traumas such as floods, famines, earthquakes, avalanches, fires, the death of their children, crippling accidents. They often refuse to speak of these things later. They just do not welcome questions or comments. They want to bury these things.

There may have been a world-wide mental fatigue over the flu epidemic.

Right. And the Flu was so intertwined with the war in the collective consciousness, that it took a backseat, the enemy unseen as opposed to the more visible enemies of warfare. What Kolata defintely sets out to do though, is to set apart the scientists - the "detectives" - from the rest of the populace. These detectives never completely forgot, or gave up their quest to find the "killer."

I do so apprieciate Gina Kolata for the information that she has given us and the detectives who never completely forgot, or gave up their quest to find the "killer." (The FLU) How it must have been for Johan Hulit to go to and finance his own expedition as he did and for me he is my hero for doing this.

Ginger

or medical procedure. The reason physicians' offices and hospitals are places of contagion is just plain old exposure to other sick people. If the doctor gives you the wrong drug or uses a wrong technique, the resulting damage or disease is iatrogenic. I found out 45 years ago that a "well baby checkup" often resulted in a sick baby!

While I would never underestimate the importance of public health, didn't anybody have scarlet fever? That was just strep infection, which is no longer considered too dangerous as long as penicillin is available. They used to burn books and toys of children who had scarlet fever in order to prevent contagion; my husband was quarantined for three weeks.

IMHO the abolishing of quarantine for infectious diseases is a great step backward. Although in a pandemic it would not be effective asd the bacteria or viruses are everywhere.

Virginia - So glad you mention Johan Hultin. He is quite an interesting character, isn’t he? There’s something of the lone adventurer about him that is appealing. His presence in this tale made it a better read than it might have been.

Hi, Sibyl - and welcome to the discussion. Tell more, if you know, about “the abolishing of quarantine for infectious diseases“. I guess you’re right. We’ve all read about these quarantines in the 19th Century and before. When did this come about? And what was the reasoning behind it? Or is it just evolutionary?

I wonder if the suppression as a result of exhaustion with war holds in other countries as well. This flu was a pandemic and it appears from reading this book that no one, "no where" recorded the extent of the disease. However, looking forward to AIDS as a pandemic, today's communication technology and the rise of epidemiology as a science I am sure contributed to the more accurate recording and public information about the disease. I am also wondering if because we sort of live in the lifetime of the flu, yet it occurred in a pre-technological time that we are looking at it through modern eyes. Looking back sure we know about the black plaque, etc. but we now about them historically. I wonder if in those times people were keenly aware there were these pandemics engulfing the world?

YiLi - The flu epidemic “had no chronicler”, as Kolata said. YiLi – do you mean to say that the people in times of the plague, for instance, were not keenly aware of the proportions of the epidemic because of the primitive nature (comparatively) of the communication of the era? I wonder. Certainly it probably contributed to the length of the epidemic, at least. One would think that, eventually, it was well recognized that they were dealing with an event of global proportions.

Charlie and YiLi, I think it was lack of comunication that the uneducated people did not know that the flu of 1918 was world wide.

Ginger

From what I have read in newspapers and magazines, it appears there is a great deal of denial going on in Africa today as to the extent of the AIDS virus there.

Yes, though it appears that the denial is at the political level. Back with the plague though, aside from communication through trade routes- which was often anecdotal and oral history- yes, I am suggesting that the people in those times did not know the extent of the plague- at the time-. Also I think a natural human instinct, even now, is to sorta hunker down when adversity strikes- towns engulfed by natural disasters- neighbors help neighbors- someone sick on the block- even with contagion- the block surrounds and protects. It is almost like through technology "outside" awareness and help come in almost as an intrusion. No I am not saying that the aide is not welcome, but I think it is not until after the adrenalin rush subsides and progress is made that people think about the outside. I think about the issues of recent floods or town rebuilt after tornado or hurricane. Later, the people respond to the outside help with gratitude, but at the time of immediate need, the "clan" so to speak binds together and feverishly takes care of business.

So in terms of the flu, I think here too people rallied around the community need, those references looking back people realizing that perhaps more than a family member, townsfolk or people on the block were stricken- was because attention was being paid to the immediate. Then because the sophisticated technology we have today- including TV- since no one was really looking "outside" there was also no way for "outside" to be looking in. Wondering if I am expressing what I mean??????

To tell the truth, I haven't read closely enough to understand what ths Aids/Africa controvery is all about. I do understand that the premise is that the HIV virus doesn't cause AIDS. But I don't know their theory on a deeper level. Fill me in if anyone knows.

But I think I gotcha, YiLi, and I'd tend to agree.

One thing this book did for me is raise my level of awareness of the yearly flu discussions and what is involved, of course, in arriving at a vaccine. It's interesting that they're saying that there may be a vaccine shortage this year and consequently, tests are now underway to see if "half doses" of the vaccine might be effective. Which would make the vaccine go further, earlier. They're looking to see if these 1/2 doses will stimulate the bodies production of flu-fighting immune cells vigorously enough. We shall see. Another thing that happened this year was that manufacturers had trouble growing one of the flu strains that was needed to produce a vaccine for the most current expected flu strains. Plus, the government apparrently found some issues with two manufacturers, which the government required them to correct. Both of these problems were mirrored in the book, especially concening the swine flu epidemic.

YiLi Lin, I thought you did an excellent job of portraying very real scenarios.

Charlie, I have read a lot about the situation in Africa, and the amount of denial that HIV is the virus that causes AIDS PLUS the amount of denial that HIV is definitely passed to sex partners is so dismaying as to make me feel actually faint with disbelief. A really huge tragedy going on there. I am, however, no expert and cannot describe for you more than this.

The President of South Africa, himself, is in denial!!

Robby

Here is a pretty good explanation of South African President Mbeki's position on the AIDS crisis in his country:

South Africa's Aids Agony
The statistics for sub-Saharan Africa are in their own way, as startling as the stastistics for the 1918 Flu epidemic for the United States: half of all HIV cases in the world are in this region; estimates are that by 2005, the life expentancy will be 47 years of age; 10% of the entire population of South Africa is infected - and all of these statistics are believed to be low.

President Mbeki is not endorsing dissident scientists so much as he is asking for an open-minded scientific inquiry. The president has a right to ask for a new scientific inquiry in to the pandemic. He has not said mainstream thinking is wrong. We all know that years of scientific evidence has often been defied by new evidence years after the world regarded such evidence as the gospel truth.

Some of this sounds familiar, does it not? After all - at one time scientists thought that they had identified the bacteria (see the 'image of the day') that caused the flu: Pfeiffer's Bacillus.

In addition, scientists have recently found the origin of the AIDS virus, one particular subspecies of chimps that populates West-Central Africa, where the virus was first diagnosed in humans. These chimps, which it is believed have been carrying this virus for centuries, do not get sick from it. And since 98% of their genetic material is identical to humans, their study, it is hoped, will prove beneficial. Ironnically, the population of this species is endangered, because they are hunted for the "bush-meat" trade. It is believed that the virus may still be spread this way in Africa!

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The "Image of the Day" is a Bureau of Health Rat Receiving Station in San Francisco. Aggressive measures helped wipe out the epidemic early in the century. This all reminds me of the bird receiving stations set up here in Massachusetts to monitor the West Nile Virus.

Thinking I might post twice to sort out my thoughts.

Just got this flash- a few folk especially over in New York discussion are talking about the sell-out of bug repellants in the various stores. I posted there and repeat here in terms of our reading- that I wonder if we are doing the same thing in our fear about West Nile that we've done over the years with antibiotics? We humans will rely on the toxic approach, perhaps causing additional health problems or problems with the ecosystem and meanwhile the mosquito will build up a resistance and reproduce as a megamosquito.

Admitting to my bias, that I think Nature knows what it is doing for the survival of the whole- looking back at the FLU let's not forget that those people who had the first round flu, the swine flu and those few who survived the mega-flu all had natural immunity that then lasted their lifetimes. The other interesting thing is the overall state of health of those survivors as compared to those who succumbed. I don't recall. But I do know that enlightened medicine whether allopathic or natural does "treat" by building up the body's natural defenses to external pathogens. 'methinks a good idea for west nile'

And a second post on HIV- in one way its possible that the government representatives are simply heeding the words of the Buddha- to not simply accept what has been believed as true simply because it has a long tradition. There is a part of me that would like to respect the questioning especially of the 'Science god'.

However, I can't seem to shake my cynicism when it comes to governments enacting policy 'for the good of the people, society or culture'. Gnawing at me is the question of what's in it for the government if they espouse denial and let the population die off. See the downside here is that I don't see the government suggesting or supporting alternatives- that's the bug in my bonnet. Well the people are starving anyway- it is not an industrial technological society so losing people would benefit rather than hinder the economy- there is a worldwide prejudice toward the region, both for its racial politics and now easily can be blamed for the scourge. it is always easier to blame and create monsters of third world people- so a government in denial may be simply looking for its place in the global economy.

then of course there is the challenge of changing social practices, especially regarding sex. in america we had the various relgions supporting the government by determining "good vs. bad" practices and we comfortably blamed the scourge on various subcultures. the christian churches do not have a foothold in african society- or they operate side by side with the traditional cosmology and rituals- like in Haiti where a family will attend a catholic mass then go home and dance the voodoo rite.

so in a nutshell- i'd toss the gauntlet to the african leaders- and say maybe your questions are good- but what's your plan?

YiLi Lin, How can we build up the body's natural defenses to external pathogens naturally?

Ginger, I think the way we build resistance to pathogens is by exposure to them. A virus (which is what causes flu) has a natural limitation. If you contract the disease and survive you do build resistance to it otherwise you do not survive. Fever is what helps the body fight infection. Of course if we have as healthy a lifestyle as possible. Proper weight and diet and exercise, no smoking, moderate alcohol.

YiLi - Actually, the 1918 flu killed people between the ages of 20-40, the healthiest of the population - a factor that puzzled scientists and was contrary to most influenza attacks.

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What about the ethical questions this book raises? Were you at all troubled that the first dig in Alaska presented the possibility of disaster? Did it seem that Hultin was properly concerned, even later, as to their approach? What about the digging up of bodies in the name of science to slice and dice lung tissue? Bothersome at all to you?

Charlie. Yes the first dig in Alaska did present a problem as I wondered if he would start it all over again but some times we must take chance's to discover new thing's.

Strengthening the body's defenses can be accomplished in a lot of ways. In Chinese Medicine one speaks of external pathogens working themselves from the outside in- and thus one takes medicinal herbs and engages in physical practices to 1) prevent the external pathogen from invading further and/or 2) engage in seasonal and environmental dietary practices. For example, when I have a chill coming on, I drink ginger tea and add hot spices to my diet. In damp, rainy weather I don't eat "damp foods", when congested don't eat white flour products, limit dairy, etc. One can go to a naturopath or Traditional Chinese Medical doctor and get a professional prescription for both treatment and prevention. There are also amazing practices in the Aryuvedic traditions.

Something simple, in my mind, the benefit of a centrifugal juicer in the house. Then a general formula, fruit juices to detox and vegetable juices to build up.

Exposing the body to pathogens sends a message to the various components of the immune system, they engage in their reaction and remember the invaders. Key to all of this though is to have a reasonably effective immune system to begin with, and with today's social, psychological and environmental stresses, - without sounding like one of "those people", i sure believe we can all benefit from some enhancements.

Charlie- yes and wasn't that the enigma in this book- the younger and "supposedly" healthy who succumbed. Looking bck though with milennium eyes, I wonder if there was another catch to that population and why they succumbed- maybe they had not lived long enough to develop the various immunities? Maybe they were out in the world and more likely to be exposed? what we know now about stress, maybe this was a war-stressed aged group and thus more likely to develop the disease. I sure tehink those young men in the army camps, though commited to a cause, sure had to be stressed despite the physical condition of their bodies.

Hmm your questions about the Alaska dig sure open a can of worms. This is not even a straight up "greater good" dilemma because it could have been a "greater evil". Well at least the guy did it cost effectively

Yili Lin, Your comments are most interesting. I always wish that Oriental medicine and Western Medicine could work together more. I would love it, for example, if accupuncture could be covered by our unsurrance. I do use green tea. It is amazing how much space is now being occupied in the grocery stores by this product.

Finally caught up, having printed out the last 100 messages, Charlie you are doing a fabulous job here, I love the daily photo change, those are fabulous.

Working backwards: Charlie, I thought they made the point that the virus was hard to get to live and easy to kill, almost that a "breath would wither it," thus I didn't think they were endangering anybody at all.

I've been very interested in MaryPage's thoughts on the difference between viruses and bacteria: I have learned something. Where does a fungus fit in there, Mary Page?

Louise: TB! I have always been afraid of TB~ My grandfather, a train conductor, died of TB in a sanitarium and I have been half afraid of it ever since. The doctor I saw after Pat W and I and Ginger and Fran M staggered home said everybody on our plane would get what we had (how about THAT, Pat? because of the recirculaton of the air). He said it only takes one sick person..points to ponder here.

I think, if you really want to know, that there is an AWFUL flu now building in Europe and that next winter it will make its way over here where only Pat W and I will be left to cry out, Bring out your dead, it's that bad!

Ginger, you may be totally right, I wish you had said something about the bird droppings at the pub, I did not know you were uncomfortable, I situated myself away from them as best I could.

SWF: Me too, I remember Quarantines! Plackard on the house, you don't go IN you don't come OUT I remember it well. I think if more people would quarantine THEMSELVES when they get sick and give the rest of us a break, we'd all be better off.

How about those grocery checkers with fever blisters on their lips touching your food, how about the McDonald's people wiping same and touching your fries? Will we all go NUTS? That's a virus.

How about those commercials showing a gorgeous woman with eye whites the color of mustard which say, " she always did like the salad bar?" Hepatitis A from the salad bar, Guys.

Robby, vegetables are not always safe as Betty points out, and the salad bar is one of the worst offenders, so they say. Somebody has to tear that lettuce, did he/ she wash his/ her hands? Hep A is a virus, too, isn't it? Have you all had all those Hepititis shots? I've had nothing, and I found it out the hard way in England.

And as Betty said, what constitutes a "wash?" (hahaha, had to laugh, Betty, I thought I was the only one with "knob" rinsing. hahahaha).

We had beautiful grapes this weekend which I soaked and washed and washed and washed and when I was thru eating them you could smell the pesticides on my hands. Is that good for us?

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Fairwinds, our Patrick (Travelin Man) spent a long time in India and didn't get sick, go for it!!

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Ella, I loved that, too, about the power of the individual spending his own money over the buracracy, but what about the end of the book? BOY talk about an example!

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We have been lucky in that we have never had a problem with chickens but the chicken is not the cleanest thing in the world to start with, I know several people who raised chickens who wouldn't eat one, do you, Pat?

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Based on my experience in England I am definitely going to get a flu shot if available and the 10 year pneumonia one too. That thing which is coming is a killer.

SWN, I haven't heard of scarlet fever in years, you are right! And now you say it was just strep? I didn't know that!

Did you all know all those immunizations you got in school or as a child are no good any longer?

YiLiLin, you mentioned that it was the young who got the flu and that that was the enigma in the book, I think you are right, I think the author says somewhere that the older people tested had already developed immunity.

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Were you all surprised that even in the middle of an epidemic in Kansas in the war that they took the time to autopsy and save samples of lung tissue?

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I was kind of surprised at this statement: "it is a straightforward task to produce antibodies." on page 131. If that's so, why do we have so many incurable diseases?

ginny

I remember being quarantined when I had the measles. Nobody could come to visit and the shades were constantly down so the light couldn't hurt my eyes. I lost a week at school.

Robby

Ginny raises an interesting point about "self quarantineing". How much less spread of colds and flus would there be if people just stayed home in bed and got well when they were sick instead of trying to 'gut it out'. We'd all be better off.

Thank goodness, some of what you list, YiLi, is becoming more "mainstream" medicine, e.g., benefits of ginger, green tea, etc. My latest discovery (where HAVE I been) is the avoidance of dairy when I'm stopped up with a cold. Makes all the difference in the world. I tried telling this to some Texas family and they grinned knowingly, one of them said, "this some California thing?"

I will spare you all from my "milk" rant.

You know, I felt just great when I checked into this discussion this morning, but now I think I'm coming down with something!!

What about milk, Charlie?

Lorrie

Quick, Lorrie!! Don't eat anything. Drink lots of fluids. Lie down for a bit. Go where it's cool. We need you, especially in Jane's classroom.

Robby

Robby, my mother used to reach for what i think she called Cascara to solve all physical problems. Her attitude was "A good physique (sp?) (and I'm not referring to the body beautiful) cures everything."

Every day she gave us some horrible cod liver oil, she put smelly goose grease on our chests for colds, (or mustard cloths) and she would make a "bread poultice" to treat a sore foot. I think that was the forerunner of penicillin. It's a wonder we made it this far.

Lorrie

Well just to make you feel a lot better today, did you all know that the Ringworm fungus, (tinea corporis: that's the one on the skin, a cousin to Athlete's Foot and the one of the toe nail you now see so many commecials about) is catchable? You can contract it by towels, from showers, from clothes, from direct contact with a place somebody else has been, in short, you can "catch it." And it's a fungus, and I have no clue as to where that is on the chain of things.

Kolata mentions Legionnaire's Disease, do you remember the hysteria over that one? One problem she doesn't mention is "Cruise disease," how many times have you heard of people disembarking who ALL got the "flu" while on ship? I wonder what that's all about, I know of several SNetters who have contracted it on four different ships and cruises, and were deathly ill, it makes you wonder.

When my children raised chickens for 4-H and sold eggs, we always had somebody who wanted to arrange them in a bowl on the countertop, saying they would stay there for a week or so. Uh....no? Once you explained that there's a membrane the egg producer washes off that then makes that porous shell a microcosm if not refrigerated, it made no difference and one customer said, well let me have them just as they come then, without washing. THAT is a customer who had no knowledge of the chicken and the backyard chicken farm, that's for sure. Talk about e coli.

Charlie, what's with the milk products thing? Every person I know who was allergic to milk or did not drink it or eat products has thinning of the bones?

I wonder if anybody, now, one week into the discussion wants to venture a thought on how effectively they feel this book is written?

What do you think? Does Kolata manage to sustain the level of interest you would have expected from the reviews?

ginny

I wish I could Remember all that I have read about these.

Am Not a biologist. Have a micro-biologist son-in-law in Missouri and a biologist grandson-in-law in Baltimore.

But have Loved reading about these 3 fascinating things. I THINK I read that the 3, combined, make up more weight than all the people on this planet.

I remember that bacteria are living, like us. That viruses are not. That viruses either have DNA or RNA, but never both, as we do. That viruses should be thought of as little "machines" which, upon being reproduced, must attach to a living cell in order to get the protein from that cell which is necessary for the virus to coat itself with in order to move about and keep "living". The reason ultra violet rays "kill" the virus is because ultra violet rays attack and flatten the protein molecules, rendering them useless.

I have read that most biologists fear and expect more pandemics throughout the rest of the history of mankind. These will be caused by viruses.

Fungi live everywhere, but the most fascinating fact about them is how they cover the earth's surface UNDERGROUND. Sometimes, with one particular type of fungus, ONE individual grows under several ACRES!

These are the 3 things that make us sick from contact with them. We can, of course, expire from falls, drowning, fires, and mayhem. But these 3 alone can kill us with disease.

Keeping ourselves and our homes clean protect us in large measure against the fungi and the bacteria. Viruses are another matter! Go live alone on a mountain top without ever seeing another person, and you might escape viruses. Then again, you might walk out in the early evening to view the stars and get that fatal mosquito bite!

I'll keep it mild..I don't believe cow's milk is good for you, that's all - it's a "clogging" food. I think that most people have a lactose intolerance to one degree or another - some more than others. I've got problems with the massive dairy "industry" and lobby that have made any disagreement with their position something like heresy.

Well - of course I have no answer for the calcium problem - but then again I haven't researched this at all. It is a legitimate question.

Kolata - I think she's only an adequate writer. I think the book could have been better organized.

Mary Page - I can belive that. Hear about the huge - HUGE - fungus that grows underground? Supposedly the largest living organism - acres and acres and acres...

If I remember correctly, it is in or near Minnesota.

Robby

Aside from Charlie's points about milk- there is a category of foods considered "phlegm-producing". When one suffers for "dampness" or phlegm leading to stagnation (sometimes the precursor to a western concept of tumor) it is important to make dietary changes and avoid damp or phlegm foods and use foods that enhance circulation (blood and qi). Bananna, milk, most dairy, white flour, pasta are examples of phlegm producing foods.

I've had good results when i first get that twinge of something of doing a grape thing- eat grapes, grape juice (real juice) for at least 3 days. For one day I try to do only grapes and grape juice- then just have a lot of it with additional foods and liquids. Those big red ones with the pits are my favorite!

Oh and yep there is a lot of calcium to be found in various vegetables- one does not have to rely on dairy. Or choose real yogurt- the kind with cultures.

Well I can't let the opportunity go by to reinforce what YiLiLin said about grapes, how about our own Mr. Grape, Charlie??

Grape juice is high in resveratrol which does just about anything for you that is good you would like, it's a very potent chemical and is more in the juice of red grapes than the white. It's one of the reasons that Europeans who drink a lot of wine have such good arteries, supposedly.

However, you needn't drink wine to get the benefit.

Likewise if you eat or use organically grown grapes you get even more benefits. Studies have shown that grapes which are grown organically are higher in this element than those which were sprayed and the juice of the muscadine grape is the highest of all.

You should also keep in mind that grapes that you get in the store, Concords and the like are probably so drenched in pesticides and fungicides that you may not be able to get it off.

---

Charlie, one thing I do agree with you with in your Milk Rant is the steroids and chemicals given to cows, especially those which increase production. I don't think that is good for any of us, but keeping the back yard cow is not an option for most Americans, either.

---

MaryPage, no I hadn't heard of that fungus and it gives me the chills!!!

Kolata had a lot of material here and could have made a book out of several of the stories, I did feel it got very exciting at the end, the race and all, that was exciting. Too bad she didn't limint her material a bit?

How do the rest of you feel about her ability to keep you up at night reading this book?

ginny

MINNESOTA? MINNESOTA? AN UNDERGROUND FUNGUS?

I MUST CONTACT GOVERNOR VENTURA IMMEDIATELY! maybe he can wrestle it out of there!

lORRIE

There really are many good comments and suggestions here. When you think about it the milk of any mammal is intended as the food for the infant of that species. I do eat ice cream and yogurt because I like them and tolerate them. I don't even feed cow's milk to my cats.

Well - the book was good for me to read because I really did learn a lot about things I didn't know before - the content was good - the presentation somewhat lacking, in my opinion. Some have said that a prior book, whose name escapes me at the moment, is the definitive book on the pandemic. Yes, there was a lot of stuff here, but it was all interesting, and much of it new to me - not having read a great deal in the sciences. Take John Dalton's eyeballs, for example, and the color-blindness experiment. That was all new stuff to me. Maybe not to those of you who read more along these lines - maybe I'm just exhibiting my limited reading habits!

I just read that ABC and John Stossel of 20/20 are both apologizing for his report (shown twice) that said organic food is no healthier than non-organic food. It's the producer (didn't write down name) who is in trouble, though, after it was discovered that someone on his staff overlooked ordering a pesticides test on the organic samples.

I hate how misinformation gets started. It was a fluke that I saw the article and can retract what I wrote earlier. What if I hadn't seen the article?

I'm kinda late jumping in here having read "Flu" a few months ago and not having terrific recall. A few comments.

I remember being disappointed in the book itself. The material was fascinating but it was somehow (to me) presented in such a dull way (except for a few high points). I kept thinking that this lady needs a good editor or something to liven things up. On the other hand, I've never written a book so who am I to be critical of someone else's accomplishment?

Charlie and others re: dairy - right on! Several years ago I read that cow's milk is for baby cows. Period. Cow's milk is naturally loaded with far higher a concentration of protein than mother's milk - think of how much weight a calf gains in its early months compared to a baby human. Humans are born with few instincts and a lot of learning to do. Brain development is critical - not body weight. Consider also the inexcuseable addition of hormones, pesticides, antibiotics, etc. added to dairy cattle milk and, well, I can do without most of it except for occasional ice cream and cheese. And yoghurt (the live culture kind only - and plain - not with added sugar and flavorings). The Dairy Council has done a bang-up job of marketing their product but truth apparently had little weight in their presentation.

I just read about that underground fungus thing too - my article said it was in Oregon (forget which part). I can't help but wonder if it doesn't contain some fascinating, yet-to-be-discovered, life-saving attributes. Like some of the rain forest growths. Do you suppose we'll have to just about completely eradicate the stuff before we discover its good points?

YiLi, your posts are so interesting.

In fact, this whole discussion is more interesting than the book but I have to credit the author for her research.

Diane, great to see you here, I agree totally with your assessment of the book, it's a plow thru'er...then you come upon some fascinating marvelous fact or some person doing fascinating stuff and you say THIS is the stuff of a book, THIS and then you're off again. I keep thinking why didn't you FOCUS on one person, there is the stuff of many books here?

I hope we can look more closely at the end of the book when we get there, the race (and why should there BE a race, why is the government not paying people to do this, they pay for nasty art) (she snarled).....

Ah who knows WHAT to believe any more? Your best bet is to grow it yourself then you know what has been sprayed on it and who touched it and when. But how practical is that for most of us?

The Vidalia onion farmers are getting 3 cents per pound at the moment, ask yourself what you paid for a vidalia onion the last time YOU were in the store? How can we logically expect those who feed us to NOT enhance production? NOT to spray. We don't spray our grapes and we probably get 1/3rd of the potential crop, the rest lost to fungus and disease. It's not our main source of income but even if it were I wouldn't spray them. Of course I wouldn't be in the business long, either.

Of course the other day, in trying to put Frontline on the dogs, the stupid little (snap away from your face) container exploded IN my face, and some of it actually got in my mouth (my husband said HE didn't go around with his tongue hanging out!)

So the hysterical anti pesticide person of all time just ate some Frontline. If you are interested, it's bitter, don't do it.

---

In the chapter A Litigation Nightmare, the author on page 189, makes the point that the Mayo Clinic had discovered 29 cases of Guillain-Barre syndrome, giving a "rate of about three cases for every 200,000 people per year," the issue, of course, being to vaccinate or not to vaccinate??? THAT is the question?

Is it worse to HAVE Whooping Cough or the possible implications from the vaccine. Do you all remember Whooping Cough? What a nightmare. Daily shots, quarantine and that awful WHOOP as the person struggles to breathe. I wonder if that was just another manifestation of the flu virus, actually.

ginny

I had whooping cough and chicken pox together. I guess when we were growing up we were expected to get what was once called the Usual Childhood Diseases. I also had Diphtheria ~ our house was quarantined for that and I couldn't go back to school until the public health nurse said I could.

I think, for the most part, those of us who had the diseases and survived do have permanent immunity to them. Chicken Pox can revisit later in life in the form of Shingles.

We seem to be evaluating the book a bit early, but I must because mine went back to the libary and on to the reserve list. I remember thinking when I first started reading the book that I wouldn't be able to finish it at all if the author continued to discuss the disgusting experiments of putting mucuous and whatever else into the ferrets - those fighting, biting little beasts. But when I got into the stories and the adventures of the various scientists I was hooked. Kolata, as others have mentioned, could have written a more interesting book if she had told just one or two of those adventures, and I agree it was poorly organized - broken up into segments of this and that and left the reader hanging in places.

This discussion has been more entertaining and informative in many ways than the book. Are you saying mothers should not give their children milk to drink? Blasphemy! What then to "build strong bones and bodies?" Yogurt, fruit and veggies, yes, but no milk? I put milk on cereal every once inawhile; however, that is the extent of milk in my life except for ice cream.

The fungus (how many varieties are there?) is particularly nasty to get rid of. My BIL has it on his hands and toes and refuses to try the medicine to cure it - which is quite expensive I understand. My daughter caught the foot fungus from showers when her MASH unit was called to the Gulf War. The rains came while she was there and the medical tents all were drowned and they spent hours piling sandbags up around - she could write a book about the travails of living in the desert with the Arab P.O.W.'s for patients! The dampness, no doubt, contributed to the growth of the fungus. However, she has taken the expensive pills and got rid of it!

Does anyone know how many types of fungus there are? And, I agree with whomever said we might discover some future use of the fungus that is beneficial to man, so we must be careful about every living thing that grows. What are mushrooms? And toadstools? And yeast? Are any of those a fungi? I'm probably all wrong there, but there is something nagging in my mind about those.

I love grapes and I don't want to be told, Ms.Ginny, that the ones that I'm eating are probably coated with pesticides, and I'm sure that the apples and peaches and all the fresh produce we eat has the same coating on it - but at the same time we are - all of us - living older than the last generation and predictions are that the next will be older still.

Yililin - those explanations of what foods do to our body are fascinating and thanks for telling us about it. We haven't done the "juicing" - I think I might if I lived alone but my husband, who has this love of meat and potatoes - a meal is not a meal without them - would have conniptions about that whole business. His mother, who lived to be 94, always chose the meat of the day and then built her meal around that and she ate whatever she liked - which was everything!

Great post, Ella, and you bring up an anomaly, the person who eats everything they like and lives way up into their 90's. My husband's grandfather lived to way up in his 90's and had bacon and eggs every morning without fail for breakfast, and worked in the fields as a farmer exposed to pesticides all his life, but his son died of cancer before he was 60. How can we say what to eat or how to eat?

How interesting about your family's exposure to fungus, I can't imagine anything worse than foot fungus in a war situation, seems like that rings a bell somewhere to me, too.

If your BIL refuses to do anything about it, how bad does it now look?

ginny

All three of those are fungi, Ella.

Molds are fungi. Mildew is fungi. A lot of basements and bathrooms are full of fungi, and it is not good for us to breathe.

Fungi are of the Plant kingdom, but they do not have chlorophyll. I do not know how many there actually are, but I am sure there is a particular number that science has identified and named.

Fungi put out spores (their reproductive organs) which we breathe in and they make us sick.

What an education here.

I liked the book but the middle was boring ( thought I would never get out of the boring part).

I must go back to school now.

Ginger

Seeing Gerald Ford at the Republican Convention reminded me of his place in this book. What do you remember Ford for? Pardoning Nixon, hitting people on the golf course and...the swine flu fiasco. Honest. These are the first three things that come to mind and no more immediately come - I'm sure they would given concentration. What about you? In fact, with the high profile swine flu, came our yearly consciousness of the "flu season" - at least for me. What about you? Do you remember it before that, raised to that level of yearly awareness?

[EDIT] See image of a warehouse full of stored swine flu vaccine

Oh, Ginny - that awful stuff in your mouth! What is it - a pesticide? Sometimes it DOES seem that these awful things happen to those who are most apt to be bothered.

I share your displeasure of things unnatural and here I am with each of my kitties on antibiotics and my husband on a potent pain killer. What a wretched statement about the lady of the house (me) and her almost tireless crusade for wholesomeness and against chemicals!

But, in my behalf I will offer the following. A few months ago I came down with shingles (not diagnosed until I was into my second week). Reluctantly, I took my doctor's prescription which was supposed to slow down the virus. The blasted stuff was deep blue (did I really need artificial colors in my body?) and didn't seem to help at all. But after a few days on that I got my wits about me and researched the internet along with my "health nut" books. What really got me going was finding several statements to the effect that the older the patient, the more likely that the post herpetic pain would last for months, if not years. At 63, I was afraid they might be referring to me and didn't want to fall into their dire predictions. So, I enthusiastically downed all sorts of vitamin B complex (with extra B12), extra vitamin C, and an amino acid, L-lycosine. And sure enough, after a few more weeks, the shingles disappeared - totally.

I hope this isn't too off-topic but I post it because I fear we are becoming much too dependent on vaccines and totally forgetting that the human body is a marvelous and brilliant organism - often capable of self-healing as long as nothing is done to interfere with its natural mechanisms but instead given friendly assistance.

Yes, this discussion IS more interesting than the book!

Charlie: what do I remember Gerald Ford for? I don't remember a thing about the Flu vaccine, nor being immunized, actually. Did you all get the shots? Do you remember Swine Flu? I do remember Legionnaire's Disease and the panic it brought about, and a real panic it was, too.

I remember Ford was a very popular senator who fell once or twice and the media and comics made a field day out of that. He seemed a decent man, quiet and sort of bland. That's about it.

I saw Vaughan Meader (Meador?) (sp) on television the other day, do you remember him? Used to imitate the Presidents. They were doing a spot on those who made fun of the presidents and Vaughan Meader was shown as a young and handsome man doing his Kennedy schtick.

The interviewer turned from the clip to an old grizzled grey headed bearded bar fly and said where were you when you heard Kennedy (whom he had lampooned, tho I read Kennedy thought it was funny) was shot and he mumbled something about being in a cab and the cabbie asked him if he knew Kennedy had been shot in Dallas, and Meader, or Meador, ever the commedian, said, "no, but if you'll hum a few bars...." and then it came over the radio that he really HAD been shot. Meador then faced the interviewer and said, "And I've been drunk ever since."

Gerald Ford and the Swine Flu story is a good example of the author's "dithering." After introducing exciting details: President Ford, flanked by two of our American Medical Heroes, Sabin and Salk, announces a swine flu immunization program. But some deaths occur. The press presents obstacles. Legionnaire's Disease breaks out. What happens? What happens? The Swine Flu chapter starts on page 129, and finally concludes its story on page 187 after detouring into testimony after testimony of individual cases, patient histories, and lawsuit details. What was the final conclusion and who cares?

What we ARE here in the Books is about our very own opinions? We don't have to sugar coat anything, but my opinion is only that and not YOURS, what's YOURS? Did you hang on every event here breathlessly?

I think either the author is hyper and easily distracted into trying to include extraneous and possibly connective details, or the reader is, after slogging thru this thing.

---

Here's a good line, tho, lost in the verbiage: "One reason the flu is less apparent in summer is that the virue dies quickly in high humidity. It needs dry winter air to spread and flourish, which is why flu epidemics seem to disappear when spring arrives." (page 136).

That's an interesting thought, so is forced heating to blame for our woes? No wonder I don't have the flu much, our house stays at 80+ percent humidity no matter what we do, and is drafty as a barn in winter.

---

Diane, so glad you threw off those signs of Shingles, I myself am cutting back a bit on the vitamins, before getting the flu I took 13 a day, but have cut back when reading in Newsweek that Soy concentrates may actually speed the development of tumors, it seems nothing is safe.

I like Dr. Weil's site, you can type in your profile and it will recomend vitamins for your particular situation, but was taking too much soy (not on his recommendation). Yes, Frontline is a pesticide. The woman who will not allow any spraying at all anywhere near her drank some, that just goes to show you!

ginny

Great photo, today, Charlie, by the way! Stored boxes of Swine Flu vaccine. When you look at that photo, do you feel any particular emotion?

I do, want to see if I'm not alone.

ginny

I can't remember anything remarkable about President Ford.

Diane Church was that Purple Stuff you had to use by any chance Gentian Violet? That's what was once used when children got Thrush. I agree with trying to reduce the chemicals and other artificial materials that are used so much. I guess there are times when an antibiotic makes sense. If I ever have to take one I also make sure to use yogurt to keep the body's normal flora. These are the normal organisms that live in our mouths. An antibiotic can destroy these as well causing us to get thrush. Yogurt and buttermilk can help prevent this.

Louise, my doctor told me it was the bacteria in our gut that antibiotics kill off, causing diarrhea.

He told me we could take buttermilk, yogurt, or a teaspoon per day of the dried bacteria from a little bottle the pharmacist could sell me. The bottle looks like a large bottle of vitamin pills, but is filled with stuff that looks a bit like grey grape-nuts, though not so well rounded. Different members of my family opted for different things, when taking antibiotics. I am a buttermilk girl myself.

Whichever cure is chosen, it works! Puts the "good" bacteria right back to work!

Knew this book would evoke a super discussion. Oh and one can "juice" without replacing a meal and still get benefit. And yes I understand that now "scientists" have discovered humongous benefits from our North Carolina Scuppernong grapes (spelled it wrong?.

YiLiLin, spelled it perfectly right, native Scuppernong grapes, pronounced "Scuffy Dines" by some. That's what we grow.

Scuppernongs, for those interested, are a gold grape, and are one of a variety of the Muscadine grape of which we grow 42 kinds of hybrids.

That's enough commercial! hahahaha

The new issue of US News seems to bolster what you all three have said about bacteria! In the August 14th issue on Runway Rage on air travel there's a wonderful article on page 42 on how Roberto Kolter was depressed and his graduate students at Harvard Medical School bought him an aquarium, which, when he looked at it, has changed the perceived wisdom about bacteria.

He found that bacteria use communication to organize themselves into functioning, defensible colonies. Breaking up that communication may help prevent them from gaining a foot hold.

The article says that these colonies may be 1,000 times more resistant ao antimicrobial drugs than are individual bacteria.

The technical term for the "pulsating communities is biofilms, and it says that last week's announcement that scientists have identified the entire genome for vibrio cholerae speeds up our work 100 fold."

Just think, when I look at an aquarium I just see whether or not it need cleaning.

ginny

It may be as deficient as some of you think, but I am pretty much a fiction reader, and I got through it and enjoyed it. Something that impressed me, although apparently no one else, is how easily an epidemic like this could recur. The point of writing about the swine flu non-epidemic reinforces this. After all those lawsuits about that vaccine, which most likely had nothing to do with the Guillane-Barr symptoms, how quick do you think the manufacturers will be to develop and make available a vaccine for a new lethal flu? And while one wonders how the 1918 flu had so many simultaneous outbreaks, contagion would be no mystery today. Incidentally, whooping cough was common until immunization becase prevalent. It is the P (pertussis?) in DPT.

GREAT point, SWT, and so well made, too. Something to think about, how likely will manufacturers be to go all out for a new flu vaccine?

And how can they tell which strain of the flu will be the more deadly so they can have enough?

What do you all think? I don't know, what with Ebola and Encephalitis scaring people to death (who was it here who said Ebola scared them, Fairwinds?) Encephalitis scares me more because I think I am more likely to conract it. (I do wish I could spell, perhaps I have the "spelling flu,") but I sure would, after that experience this past spring, line up for shots! But...but didn't Charlie just say they don't have enough of whatever strain they expect this fall so are trying half doses?

Now why don't thy have enough? Is it for the very reason SWT asks?

I wonder if Whooping Cough (you are so right, it is pertussis...what's the T? Typhoid?) has been eradicated? As Louise said, TB is coming back with a vengeance and if this doctor Koltor's theories are correct, the reason that our drugs can't kill them is that they are mutating colonies which adapt all the time, bacteria, that is. And if they knew as much about viruses as he does about bacteria they might find something similar.

Now what is TB? Bacteria? Virus? I don't think it's a fungus? Boy, I'll say one thing for this book/ discussion, I am learning stuff!

That's a great question!

ginny

Re: TB returning and not having a match in the pharmaceutical arsenal that can conquer it, I just read yesterday (in our local paper?) that in Peru of all places, they have discovered a way to treat and cure TB - very inexpensively. I wish I had saved that article. I believe it also said that a major gathering of doctors was being planned so that the treatment could be presented.

Cynic that I am, I couldn't help but wonder if possibly this treatment (since they mentioned that it was not expensive) could consist of some natural ingredient (the underground fungus perhaps or some other plentiful and available plant life) and if so, the lack of profit potential would cause the large medical business concerns to hush up the discovery.

DId anyone else see this article or hear anything about it?

Intersting that my doctor's office called last Monday and said that they were scheduling all "older" patients for early flu shots...

Medicare pays for it I think, and the Dr. says I will be given 2 shots because I was sick last May.

So if I lived after the last bout, wouldn't I have some antibodies? Or is he expecting a worse strain... I sure don"t want anything worse. Huh? Ginny?

Pat: Yes, Medicare pays for it.

Robby

TB is caused by a bacteria.

I've always believed that the hotter the house in winter the more likely it is for germs to flourish. That's my crackpot story anyway - and I'm sticking to it!

---

My father was an inveterate vitamin-C taker and later developed serious kidney stones...........

---

Thrush, Diane? Never heard of it. What is that?

---

Swine flu warehouse - The photo reminded me that modern corporate science may not always have all the answers - and that when combined with political imperatives...well, let's just say that you may end up with a warehouse full of vaccination stockpiles for reasons that are more political than scientific.

---

Ginny, I think the reason they haven't stockpiled an adequate supply of flu vaccine this yeat is that there was one particular strain thay had trouble producing, coupled with some problems at manufactiring facilities.

In the old days when babies got thrush, we had to paint the insides of their mouth with gentian violet. It also was used for impetigo -- I can remember in early elementary school some of the very poor children coming to school with purple around their nose.

Also, when my kids were little every time they had a sore throat, the doctor did a throat culture to see if it was alpha strep or beta strep. He NEVER prescribed antibiotics until the culture came back. Only then was medicine prescribed. My great-grandkids are given automatically pronounced as having strep throat and medicated by their doctors whenever they are taken in for a sore throat. No cultures are ever done on them. I cannot believe this!

Gail, I guess it was you who asked if I was given Gentian Violet for the shingles. No, it was just a deep blue tablet, Valtrex I think, and I was objecting to the use of all that dye in the pill. As I also object to dyes in children's vitamins and many other things.

Charlie, I wasn't the one who mentioned thrush but as I understand it, it is an overgrowth of the bad bacteria (in the mouth) which happens when the good bacteria have been wiped out. It is characterized by painful sores on the inside of the mouth. As my kid sister lay dying of cancer (and chemo) a few years ago, her doctor decided to give her one last blast of chemo. It was clear to everyone else that she could not recover at that time and that the chemo had worn her out while not slowing down the cancer. That last chemo left her with thrush in her mouth so that her final days were burdened additionally with a painful mouth. Now you know one of the reasons why I'm so cynical about doctors.

Gail, I don't understand either why doctors dole out antibiotics without first taking a culture. Every time I try to intercede on the behalf of my husband, the doctor makes me feel that waiting for a culture would be a waste of time. There have been several times in recent years that waiting for a culture would have been preferable but that was after the fact. Dealing with the medical profession has been the best motivation for me to become more assertive and not the meek little thing I used to be.

Diane, you are absolutely right. People are not alike and are not like cereal boxes coming off a factory line. We are each a different case and deserve individual treatment.

We have to be strong advocates for ourselves and our loved ones. If any of you lack an advocate when you go to the doctor or hospital or are being treated for an illness, GET ONE! I am fortunate in that I have a daughter who is a very out-spoken nurse. She will turn any medical establishment inside out to get to the bottom line regarding what is going on with my health and treatment. No one is going to make a cipher out of me!

MaryPage is so right. I have been an advocate for my father while he was dying of cancer and my daughter has served as my advocate when I recently had back surgery. She knew exactly what to say under certain circumstances. She had met both the surgeons. When you cannot be your own advocate, you need a person who will act for you. A friend can do it as well as a relative, anyone who will continue to ask the doctor questions and find out the best course of treatment that follows your instructions.

Maryal

Gosh what wonderful points, I'm going to be a bit cynical myself and answer SWT's post by saying that what with all the insurers backing out on their older patients and the HMO's having all the problems, that I doubt there will EVER be another mass produced vaccine push like we saw for the Swine flu, even WITh the current hysteria over the Nile Virus. Note that everywhere the answer is pesticides, that the dead birds in the back yard (and what an eerie harbinger of doom!! A dead bird! A pox on your house!!) has nothing to do with it anymore, don't even bring the dead bird in, they have plenty, thanks.

I wonder if we're just better informed, both personally and publically now in 2000, and I wonder, I really think we are not going to ever have anything like that again.

Of course I say that in the full knowledge that if a cancer vaccine is ever discovered I will be first in line.

---

Diane, so sorry to hear about your sister, my sympathies for her suffering and your loss.

I'm finding out the hard way about the medical profession. Just got a bill that Medicare has refused to pay for an ambulance. I have gone around with three ambulance companies involved in the death of my mother on February 22 of this year. The bills are just now coming in.

Company #1 says the rule for Medicare payment is that if there is a nearer facility wher the patient could be treated that Medicare will refuse to pay for the patient being taken to another facility, you owe us. This is, perhaps, a misunderstood problem for those who have a choice of hospitals, and one many people are not aware of.

Medicare itself says file an appeal or have the doctor write a statement stating the need for the ambulance in the first place. Apparently there has been a lot of fraud in ambulance use.

Company #2 says Medicare has a new rule: in order for Medicare to pay for the patient's transfer, the doctor must certify in writing that, the patient (both these phrases MUST be used) is "not able to sit up," and that the patient is "confined to bed."

I put this here in the event that, God forbid, you ever have to call an ambulance and expect Medicare to pay for it. I did not call the ambulances, the hospital did. Each ambulance bill is $355-$400.

But why can't they do the right thing, and why do those who truly deserve the service have to struggle here 6 months after the fact? The doctor's certification is in the mail to me and they said they have had plenty of others. I wonder how much of a doctor's bill goes to staff for all these calls and letters. I personally came from a long line of physicians, my mother's family was totally full of them, even her aunt was the first woman accepted at Cornell Medical School.

I remember them all to be kindly caring fine people, am not sure where medicine has gone or why it went that way. My mother's doctors were also very kind people this time, but the entire situation has changed, the patient is quite removed now from the doctor in many ways to promote "effeciency," I guess. And malpractice lawsuits.

---

Charlie, no wonder I never catch anything, our house is freezing in the winter. And the summer. And the fall. Is your email working at all?

---

Pat, TWO shots? I would think you and I were immune from every disease catchable after that experience!

---

Alf made a great statement in the Welcome Center and I would like to quote it here: "The absolute best part is if you don't like a book being read, people are genuinely interested in what it is that you dislike. It makes reading and sharing of our interests so much more enjoyable. "

We're not going to like every book we read here nor are we going to hate every book we read, but we will try to get the very last drop out of every book, that's for sure!

Let's turn our attention to Ann Reid this morning. Her story starts on page 287, if you still have the book. She was the one doing all the careful, involved work. She'd come back at the end of the day and not find any trace of the 1918 virus.

"It was terribly discouraging...I spent a lot of time in prayer over this. .."

They kept trying and trying and then, on page 214, "And she saw them--the black marks that showed that the matrix gene....[was] there. She felt a chill run down her spine....'Very few in science are given that kind of moment,' she said." (page 214).

Now that was exciting but the part that stunned me was the reaction from the medical community:

"Reid was elated and also stunned by the success of the project. She knew that most scientists would not even acknowledge her as a colleague, yet here she was, a key part of the team that was hot on the tracks of the elusive killer virus. After all, she was just a technician, she did not have a PhD."

She mentions being asked before, "Where did you postdoc? I tell them that I did not postdoc and they would turn around and walk away."

I was wondering, when I read that, about the entire "society" of science and science journals since Nature and Science rejected the findings article.

Did any of this surprise you at all? It did me. Do you suppose there are good reasons for this behavior, or not? And isn't it truly amazing how many people are working independently on these viruses and why doesn't the government get them all together????

Wonder if that's what's happening in cancer research too, don't you think it would go faster if all these people somehow got together?

ginny

Maryal, we were posting together, I'm in total agreement over the Patient's Advocate and sometimes the patient's family needs one, too. Oh golly the stories you hear.

ginny

Ginny--Yes,I noticed you were posting at the same time. After reading your post, it is clear that you have also been your mother's advocate. I applaud you. A difficult task, but the last gift we can offer to those we love.

Thank you for the exact words to use if someone on Medicare needs an ambulance. I am writing both phrases down for future reference. The patient is "not able to sit up" and "is confined to bed."

Maryal

so glad to hear you talk about advocates. i learned that abut 5 years ago with a lengthy hospitalization, that especially when you are not well, you really need someone at your bedside 24 hours a day, asking questions and monitoring and REMEMBERING what one doctor says as compared to another. this is important especially in teaching hospitals. recently i was hospitalized and "lucky" that the almost event took place when i was feeling better and so carefully watched the nurse almost inject an air embolism into my IV. When i questioned her she was going to diddle around rather than have to take out the IV, get new orders and reinsert. I almost went along with her idea then finally said- "no, I want you to take this IV out". when she did i noted that the end was bent and broken and the whole thing was clotted - which she would have forced into my veins had we done it her way.

Interesting note about the bacteria- seems in keeping with a book I've read that talks about cellular intelligence and cellular communication. I've been engrossed in these theories that are applied from quantum physics- makes me see nature in a whole new light.

Charlie I tend to agree bout temperature and germs, not so much that the actual temperature (if you are not exceeding or freezing them out) might be helpful, but a closed, warm, stuffy room in winter sure does not circulate air and positive energy well.

Speaking of Medicare, transport and the general state of medicine, the last few weeks have been a comedy of nightmares. Bottomline for my move to Houston was to be near family and good medical care. After letting go (this year) of a healthcare connection to an employer that I left 16 years ago, to sign up for a really good HMO/Medicare plan here, 2 things have happened back to back. My primary care HMO doctor said he's uncomfortable with my (2 year) ongoing pain management regime and he doesn't want to be my doctor anymore. (I was not that happy with him either, but I've never had a doctor say go away instead of, let's figure something out.) Then, 2 weeks ago, I received a letter from the HMO/Medicare plan that said, sorry, they will no longer provide coverage to Medicare folks after Dec. 31st. On the television news, I hear that all but one HMO/Medicare plan are leaving Texas at the end of the year. The one left? The worst ever, with virtually no prescription coverage and no good hospital affiliation here in Houston (so much for world class hospitals).

So, this last Monday, I'm set to see a new primary care doctor in the same HMO/Medicare plan. I'm using one of my 16 free transports to medical appointments. I'm to be ready an hour beforehand. I'll shorten the story and just say that the person that came to pick me up refused to come to the door. A woman from his company called and said, "He's out there. Go out." I reminded her of the discussion/agreement of needing help with wheelchair, etc. She said he was not allowed to touch a person. I had to ask if he was allowed to touch a door and a wheelchair. She didn't think so. Time passes. Many phone calls later, it turns out that he really wasn't in front of my apartment building after all. He was parked in front of the office because he couldn't find building 7. At one point, I was on the phone with his transport company and could hear him saying to her over his cell phone, "Ask her what two buildings it's between." I said, "Tell him it's between buildings 6 and 8." Ok, she said and told him. Ok, he said, neither of them getting my irony. I did not make that appointment. I had to reschedule with a doctor filling in for my new primary care doctor, as the latter was scheduled to be out of town for 2 weeks.

The worst parts, of course, are second guessing my letting go of the former health coverage and hating the long process of finding and establishing a trusting relationship with a doctor who still reads medical journals. (It's endlessly fascinating to find so many articles in AMA journals pleading with doctors to treat pain. Just this past year the institute that offers accreditation to hospitals had to issue a patient's right to be treated for pain---made it part of the accreditation policy.)

Anyway, sorry to get off course, but your posts on Medicare were too tempting.

I hear you all in this advocacy thing. My wife's sister is an oncology nurse and she takes a strong, active role when necessary, when dealing with the medical profession.

---

That was an interesting observation about Ann Reid, Ginny. There certainly seems to be a pecking order in the medical research area, that's for sure. We seemed to see that too, in Johan Hultin vs. Kirsty Duncan. Kolata's writing about Duncan is hard to characterize - but I was left with minor feeling of dislike for her and I don't know whether that was fair. Kolata said just enough to make me uncomfortable with her (Duncan) but not enough to clearly state her case. Now that I've written these things, I'm wondering if the word "advocacy" doesn't touch on the gnawing feeling that Kolata just doesn't ever let us know where SHE is coming from. She says just a little and then hops over to something else, only to return later. I guess I wish she were just a little clearer with me on where SHE stood on the various subjects she touches on. But is that FAIR? Or is that to be expected of her? If that is a role she does not choose, is that a valid stance. Like SWN, I am primarily a fiction reader, and maybe this is the problem. Maybe I'm looking for the wrong things here. Kolata is first and foremost a science reporter for the New York Times, and this book is closer to straight reporting than editorial style writing. But the problem as I see it is that she dips her toe into editorializing and then pulls back into reportage. She leaves me in an uncomfortable middlde ground. There. Now I feel like I understand how her style has made me feel.

Warning of expected "late delivery" of this years flu virus was in the paper again along with the urging that the "healthy" should delay getting the shot. My state (MA) has ordered up 65,000 more doses of the vaccine this year than last, but will end up with an estimated 28,000 fewer doses. Here are some more details: As I said before, the manufacturers had trouble with one particular flu strain - A-Panama H-3 N-2. They cultivated three for this years flu season - the other two being strains from Caledonia and Yamanashi (Japan?). The one from Panama took a lot longer to reach maturity in the chicken eggs, which resulted in the late delivery of much of the vaccine "harvest". There are four licensed manufacturers for this years flu vaccine: Loacted in Rochester, MI, Marietta, PA, Swiftwater, PA and one in the UK.

The other factor that is contributing to the expected early shortfall in the vaccine is the fact that the CDC droppped the recommended age to get the shots from 65 to 50. They estimate that there are over 70 million people at risk for "serious complications, such as hospitilization."

Charlie I think you have made an interesting observation. Yes, Kolata, I believe might have had some editorial input about objectivity in non-fiction reporting, yet wrestled with her "opinions" and attached values to some of her information. I too hought she was most transparent with the Kristy Duncan reports- something in her style made me wonder if she were not mimicking the fact that Kristy prayed at the gravesites. We I am sure expect all "nonfiction" to be biased, after all even the facts that an author chooses are particular to the case he/she is presenting. I think that was what disturbed me here, in other nonfiction there is often an assertion made early on---- this is the good guy- this is the bad guy and here's my book to have you see it my way.

I think Kolata was making an assumption that we all thought the flu was the bad guy and then threw in her historial bias in how various parties went about challenging the bad guy. Along the way I think she might have stumbled on a lot more "guys" and since she was not so sure we woud make agreeing observations, she made sure the characters and eventes were sinister in the telling.

Are the 2 flu shots some seniors will be getting from their doctors to cover the fact that the flu shots this year are to be HALF strength?

Betty, every word you wrote was of value to all the rest of us. I am devastated to hear you are having such difficulties, but do not apologize in telling us. We all learn from you. You arm us against our own possible future experiences.

Thank you, MaryPage.

My Dr. said the 1st shot will be full strebgth and the second 8 weeks later will be a booster.

Betty, bless your heart, one can FEEL the frustration even in the humorous way you present it, between Buildings 6 and 8, oh my and can he touch the door? hahahaha I know you were pulling your hair out, but we can certainly feel where you are coming from. Sometimes it makes you wonder, doesn't it, about people in general. It's times like those which prove to be a greater struggle for our own morality and judgments, at least mine do, some people are so...you just have to shake your head.

That's really interesting, Charlie and Mary Page, about Kolata's style. I'm going to look at the Duncan thing again, because I distinctly remember being impressed with her until brought up short, want to go back and see just HOW that occurred and when.

I am primarily also a fiction reader, tho lately I am enjoying more non fiction, especially about China. It's very hard, for me, to discuss non fiction, because, let's face it, either it happened or it didn't. That's not the case in fiction and you can spend endless time figuring out the whys and wherefores. But in non fiction it's hard to remember you are dealing with only an opinion.

Remember the old case of the class in psychology where the professor had the people barge into the room and stage a robbery? Thirty people saw thirty different things and they were all eye witnesses!

I don't think it's particularly a negative thing to look at the style of the writer, insofar as we are able to discern a bias, that is. I know nothing personally of the 1918 flu, nor the events surrounding it, I have to take Kolata's word for it. I guess that's part of the unease I feel too, in dealing with it.

But there are, for me, too many players and too many plot lines. I feel that she is really trying to give us the interesting bits of the story but it's sort of overpowering, at least to me. I also think the end of the book is much better written and might serve as what the rest could have been.

Now off to see what she actually said about Duncan!

ginny

Betty---I would like to throttle that driver who couldn't touch anything and who couldn't find your building. I'm angry at the whole medical system for the way you are being treated. I don't think that HMOs should be allowed to disappear unless there is something put in their place. We certainly do need some health care reform in this country. I am so sorry that you are caught in the middle.

Re: Kolata's "style." It's confession time. I read the first three chapters at Borders and thought to myself, I just cannot read this. I noticed the skipping around and the failure to write the kind of nonfiction prose that I demand if an author wants me to read him/her. There are well written nonfiction books, but this is not one of them. I have been following the posts here and chiming in now and again, but I had to confess that I have not read the whole book and the reason why. The subject is fascinating and the presentation should have been better in order to fit the subject.

Maryal

Maryal, right on!

I was so excited to read this book (I love reading about events in the world of medicine) and the subject of "flu" seemed to have the potential for a lot of page-turning anticipation. Then when I actually started reading I kept wondering, "When do we get to the good stuff?" I really mostly skimmed my way through and was relieved when the book ended. Not that I was wanting a Robin Cook kind of thriller but, as others have said here, it had the potential for so much more.

Thanks Diane---I'm with you. Also enjoy reading about medicine and discoveries. Usually.

"When do we get to the good stuff?" I love that. We got to the good stuff at the end, and Charlie's photo of Miss Duncan there yesterday (I love that changing retrospective, Charlie!) at the top of the page reminds us all to revisit her story.

Am I the only one who was AMAZED at John Hultin and his single minded pursuit of this virus? TWICE???? YEARS apart? That in itself is a story.

Back in a mo with Duncan.

ginny

Well, I don't feel like a dunce anymore.. If the esteemed Prof from Maryland has a problem staying interested, then it isn't just me.

I guess the best way, is to look for a chapter that looks interesting... or flip through reading a paragraph or two and flipping to something else.

But the first part is the worst...

I have not read this book but I am an avid reader of the New York Times and have often read Kolata's well-researched and well-written articles on the Science page.

Each type of medium has its own style -- research papers, newspaper articles, books. I was also engrossed by an interview of her on the Diane Rehm talk show on NPR. An expert in one medium is not necessarily good in another.

Robby

I like the observation that John Hultin was a story unto himself. In fact looking at the book now from that perspective and noting what I have liked about nonfiction in the past, is rather than an author's "report" the best of nonfiction often has us see events through the eyes of a significant player. This can be done through reporting as well as interview and anecdotes from other people living in those times. Perhaps this is the fatal flaw of the book, Kolata stood at the end of a century and looked back 'herself'. In scientific research the researcher (author) is the eyes of the reader but usually he/she is engaged in reporting on his/her own work.

A little bit different view of the sad tale of the medical pick up van- medicine has become one of the largest employers especially in the entry level employment market. I have found that often good-hearted, but poorly trained or minimal workplace experience or minimal skills people are hired or "placed" in entry level medical jobs. Aside from the appropriate remonstrations against the HMO- I think that the educational system, federal and state workforce development initiatives and the employer- especially in the medical economy- need to re-evaluate the profit bottom line. I also don't think they will engage in this re-evaluate without a significant public outcry- but one directed at this issue not just the rage of medical care abuses. - soapbox again, but hey its still raining

We've already talked about this, but here's more confirming evidence of the germ ridden air available to passengers in commercial airplanes. This article appeared in today's Boston Globe. You might not want to read this if you're flying anytime soon - or take a page from the Japanese who, it is said, "routinely wear paper masks on public transportation." Hold your breath

Alfred Crosby. That's the author of a previous book on the 1918 pandemic that I couldn't think of before.

One thing stands out about this Johan Hultin - doesn't he seem a decent man? How he insisted on gaining the trust and permission of the village leaders whenever he went on his expeditions? And to realize that this guy was 72 when he went back to Alaska. Quite amazing.

Yes, I was also impressed with Hultin, a very fine person very careful and respectful of disturbing the graves the first time, very watchful and noticing of how the people felt. I thought the race at the end was just like something out of Indiana Jones and wondered why they couldn't have combined forces?

You know since reading this book, I've been overwhelmed with other stuff from the news and the press about these subjects? Have you all?

Sunday's paper here talked about a Cancer Vaccine.

The very newest issue of People magazine has a huge article on the West Nile Virus, how it only apparently affects people OVER 60, how it's not something a person should get upset about, on and on.

Then Monday on my Netscape browser here came a big thing on airline safety and here came a catalogue in the mail with something that looked like a gas mask for your air travel.

Fairwinds, if you're still with us here, Adrienne, who travels to England several times a year, says she always gets sick and will try your remedy of the Neosporin. Here's hoping that helps her.

---

Does anybody want to talk about the video Charlie so carefully sent to everybody? You know he had to go make two copies because I taped The Sopranos over the middle of one, went to a lot of trouble.

I was really surprised at the sheer FOOTAGE shown and I thought the video was very well presented. For some reason I was not aware of the camera's being that old and was so surprised to see the figures there moving around.

Likewise I love the photo in the book of the two men getting on the trolly, the conductor is waving the unmasked man away. Do you think that was a "plant?" A commercial for wear your mask?

---

LIkewise I am really impressed with Charlie's research in the heading and spent some time looking at the various URLs that took a lot of time, our Charlie, and we do appreciate it.

I find I have not read Katherine Ann Porter's Pale Horse, Pale Rider , have you all? It certianly sounds good:

Pale Horse, Pale Rider (Modern Library Series) Katherine Anne Porter

Pale Horse, Pale Rider comprises three of the Pulitzer Prize-winning author's short novels or long stories, as Porter - who didn't hold with the term "novella" - called her pieces. In the masterly "Noon Wine," set on a Texas farm circa 1900, she offers an unforgettable study of evil. According to Reynolds Price the tale "can stand shoulder to shoulder with anything in Tolstoy or Chekhov." Both "Old Mortality" and the title story center on Porter's fictional counterpart, Miranda: a resilient Southern heroine who, as Mary Gordon observed, is in "the precarious position of a woman who must earn her way with no one behind her to break fall."

What People Are Saying [Katherine Anne Porter]...seemed from the beginning to be in possession of a magical assurance of tone and image. She is clear and exact; fresh, never mechanical. Nothing is insisted upon, nothing is jarringly decorative, and yet nothing is journalistic...the psychology is acute, undogmatic, and enduring, and under the protection of an aesthetic intelligence and unusually discreet and wise. —Elizabeth Hardwick

I've ordered that, it's obvious it's short and the Noon Wine one seems to be one I need to read. Have any of you read this book and maybe we could say a word or two about it, too, here.

---

One thing I love about our discussions is that instead of closing a door when we discuss a book we open a lot more.

Thank you, All, for all your input! Don't stop now!

ginny

I had meant to pick up the Katherine Anne Porter at some point, but never got around to it. Can't fit it in now, though, And wow - digressing even more - Elizabeth Hardwick...she's an example of a very talented writer who is mostly our of print. Anyone ever read Sleepless Nights?

Ginny: There is an excellent video of Noon Wine,that might be available in some libraries.

Actually,there were two TV shows made of Noon Wine. The best one was directed by Sam Peckinpaugh ( Of The Wild Bunch film ,fame)and starred Jason Robards.There were no commercial videos of the Peckinpaugh version released,but Robards donated his copy of the video to The Museum of Radio & Television in NYC, and I was very fortunate to have seen it at the museum,and I can tell you that it is Shakesperian in scope......sometimes, if you contact the Museum you can buy a copy of some of their holdings (depending on copywright and donation restrictions),

The museum is a great place to visit the next time you're in NYC,but you have to get there when they open ( 12 noon daily)to be able to get access to an individual TV monitor.

Fascinating. I would join a discussion of that book, which I do not believe I have read.

Wasn't there another book with a similar title though? Which I DID read? No rider in the title? Can anyone remember FOR me?

Mary Page--Was it Ship of Fools?

MaryPage, Jane Smiley wrote something recently about horses---no title comes to mind. Oh, Horse Heaven.

No! No! No!

It had Pale Horse in the title, but no rider. A man wrote it. WHAT WAS IT??????

(having one of those it's driving me nutz that I can't remember moments. having several of them.)

Looked it up!

No wonder I could not remember! Several men have written books with "Pale Horse" in the title, and I have read book reviews of a couple of them.

But the one I actually READ was NOT by a man! Bet a lot of you read it as well! THE PALE HORSE by

Agatha Christie!!!!!! Gotcha!

I figure I read it back in the nineteen fifties. That was when I was devouring her books.

One thing that surprised me is that I live right next to the former Ft. Devens (mostly closed now) where much of the early pandemic got its start. Surprised, because I had never heard any talk of it as part of the local history, in the town papers or anything.

I don't believe I have read any Katherine Ann Porter. Since our book discussions have opened here I have gotten MORE ideas for reading and have enjoyed more good books than I did any time before this, I believe.

Kinda opens you up to a new world of reading.

Charlie, really? Right near by? Well I don't imagine it's something they're thrilled about keeping in the public eye, people are sometimes superstitious and rumors attach where there is no foundation.

Malocchio stuff.

Or is that not too commmon in Mass? I can never remember whether MA is Maine or MASS, but have gotten so lazy I now use those state abbreviations, too.

Soon in America we will not be able to spell anything, we'll have to just abbreviate everything. L ts.

hahahaha

Esperanto!

What else does anybody have to say about this book?

ginny

Robby, that's a great point about Kolata's good writing in another field, I have been thinking about that ever since you mentioned it, great point and so true in many ways in life as well as literature.

MaryPage! Agatha Christie! Good for you, I was going nuts trying to remember and isn't that her one about Christmas and Poirot? (Going out on limb here). Boy I sure love Agatha Christie, she said she wrote so she didn't have to talk. But she talked to herself and acted out the dialogues to see if they were normal. I'm a total fan of Christie.

Ed, you always know the BEST places to go, now I had heard of that museum but never darkened the doors and now I have a good reason to go, but will read the Noon Wine first. I think we should get up a group, MaryPage said she would read the Porter, maybe we could read it and then see if the tape MIGHT be available. Anybody's library videos on line? I've been scaringly lucky with mine.

ginny

Ginny, U asked abt the bk. Ok read if u like N/fiction, but 2 slow at 1st.

hhaaha, let's do our own review of it?

By the way, I came back in here to say that Lysol sprays now advertise they kill viruses, too, as well as bacteria and that somebody very early on said that they don't like those pocket antibacterial wipes because they are not moist enough?

"Wet Ones" are soaked? They come in the pink wrapper and the yellow antibacterial wrappers small enough to fit in a purse or glove compartment and when you open them they are SO wet they drip, but you do feel safe. I couldn't travel without them, tho I must say I use a zip lock to store them in because often the seal does not work and the contents of your purse (sorry Charlie! hahahaha) gets soaked.

I think, today being the 16th, that we have done a pretty good job with this discussion, it being such a difficult book to discuss. I am surely interested in any other point anybody else might like to make.

On August 28 the PBS stations will be presenting a documentary on the life of Jonas Salk, you may want to watch it, he's shown in the commercials with tons of tubes, looks just like what we've read here.

One thing about this, I did learn a lot. And it's kind of opened my eyes a little.

And I must say I'm a tad apprehensive for the country if the current flu shots are not going to be able to be given to everybody who would normally get one, that sounds ominous, to me.

ginny

I find it most difficult to believe that a Lysol spray will kill viruses. If that is so, then we can wipe out AIDS in a week.

Robby

Robby, thank you!

That ad has Really been bothering me as well. Yet, I am no biologist. I Must remember to ask my son-in-law and grandson-in-law, the first a micro-biologist in Missouri and the second a Ph.D in Biology who works with viruses in a lab at Johns Hopkins.

Aha! So, Mary Page and Robby, you don't believe those ads, well, MaryPage when you get the chance, please report back here to us so we'll all know. Maybe if we read the very fine print it's a certain virus, but....but...didn't the book say viruses were easy to kill? Something about air and they don't live off the host?

Maybe Lysol means on solid surfaces, not in the body?

ginny

Bacteria are easy to kill, if you have the right stuff.

I haven't reached a place in the book where it says viruses are easy to kill. That goes against everything I have read previously.

I saw the same Lysol ad and wondered. Waiting for your report, MaryPage.

Mary Page, Missouri is calling me as I just got an offer to day, Hotel paid etc. at Branson but cannot find it in my year 2000 Rand Mcnally's map? I am intending to go with friends I have know for some forty years if I can help drive and help with directions. so Please Help

and do help on the virus, bateria please.

I really got an education from this book and the posts here. Schooling has kept me from posting but got to read every chance I could. thanks Ginger

Ginger, I have never been to Branson and do not know where it is. I gather, though, from conversations overheard that it must be somewhere near Springfield. Wish I could be more helpful. I am a Virginian and have never lived in Missouri. A daughter married a man from there and lives there, as well as 2 granddaughters and a great grand. Most years they come East to visit the huge family here, and I have only been to Missouri twice!

Mary P, Thank You for your response.

I believe the T is for tetanus. We used to have a separate series of shots for typhoid. Whooping cough is by no means extinct, you still find it in the cities although not frequently. And the current tendency of parents to refuse vaccinate their children and rely on "herd immunity" puts the country in danger of new epidemics. Herd immunity exists only when the vast majority of children have been immunized, for diptheria and whooping cough especially. My mother used to call diptheria "membranous croup", and she was extremely frightened of it. It used to kill a lot of babies.

Thanks for that post. I had never heard of the phrase "herd immunity" before, but I'll bet I'll see it again now. I learned something. Good day!

Wow, membranous croup, I swear that was what I got in England this time, it seemed just like it. I have never ever had anything go right to the lungs? Bypassed the nose and head, shot to the lungs. There's no telling what that was!

That herd immunity idea thing for some reason reminds me of one time when my children were very small, one a baby and one about 5, they were napping and my erstwhile "friend" dropped by with her two small children, covered in chickenpox sores! Just covered. I was just aghast. She said, oh it's better for your children (one a baby) to get it now than later. Can you imagine what a strained and short visit THAT was? My kids kept on napping and when her kids left ol stupid disenfected every surface they touched and, I will never forget this, turned on the attic fan!! Can you believe that? It was COLD, winter time and I turned on the attic fan to take all the....what? air out of the house, boy was it cold. I believe my husband, upon coming home from work, began to think perhaps his wife was not quite.....the same as other people.

The kids did not get chicken pox, I did from adult students when they were older, on the leg only and then they got it, but they were older.

I just saw and did not copy down, the rates of death from certain supposedly defunct diseases and I did notice that pertussis had a very high incidence of death when contracted, now that surprises me!

I keep quoting that stuff about viruses, I need to go try to find where I marked it and be sure I understood it, I may not have!

ginny

Since we seem to be winding down, I want to make a comment about the things people have said about medical professionals. I have two physician daughters, and I hear their side of things. We do not realize the extent of control exercized by the HMOs and the state regulations. Their demands supercede the physician's opinion most of the time. Medicare is no better, and requires endless documentation; most physicians have an employee who does little more than deal with various healthcare plans. The amount of pain medicine which may be prescribed is very limited in some states, and "excess pain medication" will result in loss of license for the physician. This is a great disincentive to making patients comfortable. Also, I very much sympathize with the person who had the bad experience with the person who was supposed to transport her, but the people who do this are often volunteers and if they do not have proper training it is the responsibility of the organization providing the service. Clearly the only instruction he heard was "Don't touch the patient!" This instruction is almost certainly a result of litigation. While I'm on this soap-box, I will say that while medical specialists do very well financially, family docs do not get rich by any means. One of my daughters has three small children and really needs fulltime help. Too expensive! These physicians earn enough to have a life style similar to other professional people, but they do not live lavishly and do not accumulate fortunes. In Tennessee family docs barely break even with Medicare patients..their overhead is surprisingly high. It's hard to keep an office open breaking even!

Others of us can rant too, Charlie!

As a Clinical Psychologist, I say AMEN to SWN's remarks!! Managed care "clerks" will tell me that they "may" allow up to 8 sessions but I must first "staff" (a euphemism) with them after the second, and sometimes first, session. Based upon my comments and their deep knowledge, they may say: "OK, we'll approve two more sessions and then let's "staff" again."

Their paperwork is notoriously slow. I will get a referral from them over the phone with very little info. I contact the patient or the patient contacts me. I don't want to keep a needy patient waiting so I quickly set up an appointment. After I have seen this patient for maybe 3-4 sessions, I get a notice from the Managed Care saying they are approving two sessions.

I am one of those "silly?" professionals who never turns anyone down so at times the patient is paying me peanuts for thorough psychotherapy. What do I say? "What! You don't have the dough? Too bad, buster, go back home and continue that deep emotional hurt." In addition to that, I also handle Medicare patients because I work with many elderly. Medicare also gives me peanuts.

Well, enough of this!!

Robby

SWN---The transport error was an administration error---you know, those "medical" clerks that work for HMO's. She scheduled a taxi company to pick me up. Three days later, an ambulance company---which was what was agreed on originally---picked me up. That first missed appointment was a critical one, but because of someone's incompetence, I won't see that particular doctor until the 23rd.

My beef with physicians in this difficult time for both patients and physicians is that not enough of them talk straight to patients. They will not admit when asked directly if they fear phone calls from DEA or the state board, or if they already have "enough" pain patients (whose prescriptions get tallied for the DEA). No, they say, oh, no, not a problem, then futz around for a few months, hoping I'll go away on my own. (My recent doctor would let Walgreens call 3 or 4 days in a row before returning their calls.) I faced this several years ago, looking for a brave physician. Without exception, it was the nurse, not the doctor, who would finally say, well, yes, there is some reluctance to carry too many pain patients. One in-hospital neurological workup I had at a major research/teaching hospital was scheduled strickly to provide documentation for a doctor's file. Once that was in place, everyone relaxed and things went along fine for 3 years. Then I moved and here we go again.

Here's some irony. Do you know what finally turned the state of Oregon around on providing sufficient treatment for pain? The passage of the physician-assisted suicide law. All of a sudden, doctors everywhere did not want to have to face that kind of request from a patient. Seminars sprung up everywhere for doctors focusing on adequate pain treatment. That mental shift--all the articles, all the seminars--set the stage for the passage of use of marijuana for both chronic pain and terminal patients. The mental picture that still blows me away is the talk with my SAFEWAY grocery store pharmacist. He contacted his state governing body to get clarification, then informed me that one other patient that grew her own marijuana had too much and offered to share with 2 others. He got permission from the pharmacist board to pass along to me her offer. A Safeway pharmacist. Actually, I didn't have a need, but I did talk to her and said I'd keep her in mind if things changed. Ah, I miss Oregon.

Thank you, SWN!

Everything you posted is So Important.

I hate bringing personal items to these forums, but it still hurts, 30 years after the fact, that my mother died in excruciating pain. The medical people Knew she was going to die (cancer), and soon. Yet they never DID take her off of the medication she had become immune to and put her on morphine, the next step in the plan. I begged them to. "She might become addicted", was the response! Hey, who the h--l Cares?, was my response. But they would not budge. I would not, under the circumstances she was in at that time, have cared either if she had been accidentally overdosed. She was DYING, for crying out loud! She was not allowed to die with dignity, but cried out until she became unconscious, and then she groaned right up to the dreadful end. To me, this is inhumane, but it goes on all over all the time.

About the viruses and Lysol, I have sent an e-mail to my granddaughter to inquire of her husband. No answer from him as yet, but here is what She (an Art History person, not a biologist) says: "From my understanding, how viruses can be killed has much to do with how they are replicated and how they express themselves. Bob studies RNA viruses, such as HIV, Rous-Sarcoma Virus, and others. These are elusive and they change, which makes it difficult to kill them. First they learn How the virus replicates and grows and the pathways it uses to do that. The next step is figuring out how to disarm it or stop its ability to replicate. Imagine having to do that for a virus which changes so quickly that any information gleaned is moot by the time you figure out what to do with it! Very frustrating. Antibodies to viruses can kill viruses, ultraviolet light can kill viruses, but I don't think Lysol can. My understanding is that Lysol is effective in killing Some bacteria, like salmonella, but not viruses."

Will let you know when I hear directly from the expert.

MaryPage, well that right there is a whole lot more than I knew. Thanks for sharing that and it will be great to have an expert's opinion, also, am looking forward to it.

I'm so sorry to hear of, even 30 years later, your mother's painful death and I agree with you there is no excuse for it. If it's any consolation, and it may not be any, somebody is listening because when my own dear mother died this February 22, she was on morphine, I'm sorry that happened to your mom, and to you.

ginny

Thank you, Ginny, and I am gratified to know your mother died in peace.

Within the last 6 months (May?), results of a study were published in JAMA (Journal AMA) that gave a foundation to scads of other less definitive studies. It reported a biochemical reaction traced to two different parts of the brain, the first in people with pain and the second in people without pain---when both groups were given opioid medication---morphine. The first group were people a few hours out of surgery---wow, talk about validity. The second was a control group. Anyway, many previous studies have shown such different reactions for people with legitimate pain---addiction is rare---in other words, very few "highs," no "drug-seeking behavior" (hallmark of addiction) and most mysteriously, low percentage of dependence or need for higher and higher doses over time to produce similar results. This latest study may have found the reason. (I hope I've remembered the right journal. Could have been New England Journal. I have a copy somewhere.) On this subject, though, doctors are entrenched in their beliefs on the dangers of pain medicine. Just because these studies are out there in the literature doesn't mean doctors will change how they think overnight.

Betty: I agree with you that it almost never happens that a person in pain becomes addicted to the drug. However, I am in the local nursing home 2-3 times weekly and speak regularly to the physicians. Don't blame them for their actions in this context; blame the attorneys.

Robby

Do you mean that I should turn my 30 year seething anger from the doctors involved to the legal profession?

MaryPage---I am sorry to hear of your mother's distress. When John died, six years ago from advanced melanoma, he had hospice care and morphine. I think the hospice movement is making strides in pain management. My father, in 1990, also died of cancer in a nursing home. The doctor had morphine "on request" for him from the time he entered. He didn't take it until the last week, but he was peaceful.

Maryal

YES

I know of doctors and pharmacists who have been prosecuted because they prescribed very large amounts of pain medications and pharmacists filled them.

Some patients who have back problems need very large doses of pain meds to function. And pain is what the patient says it is.

Of course, attorneys wouldn't be able to make their money winning their cases against the physicians if the public wasn't so litigious in the first place.

Something goes wrong? First question - Who can we sue?

Robby

My husband is on increasingly strong pain medications to try to resolve back pain. He has gone from Vicodin to Norco to Percoset and now, to Methadone - the last two are what they call "triplicate" drugs here in California - heavily controlled.

Re: the addiction potential, from what I've seen there is no way Del could become addicted to any of these. They have all had varying degrees of success at relieving the pain but each one had (and has) terrible symptoms of dizziness, confusion, disorientation, etc. My husband tolerates the pain as long as he can to prevent taking the medication and associated feelings of confusion. He frequently tells me that he can't understand how anyone could become addicted when they make him feel so lousy.

I had a small taste of that a month or so ago when I had shingles. Vicodin was the most potent medication I took but same thing - it took longer and longer for the pain relief to kick in, but the awful confused feelings happened sooner. Thank God they only lasted a few months and I no longer need any of that stuff.

It has been amazing to us that there is so little help for pain. Del has had the steroid injections along his spinal cord and they were only very temporarily effective. Next step is nerve testing to try to pinpoint the exact source of the pain but the earliest he could be scheduled was Sept. 7, so here we go again, waiting, waiting, and wavering between pain and feeling "out of it". Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic here but this situation of pain control is happening right now with us.

Robby, how does this fit into what you know. I wrote before how surprised I was when looking for relevent medical journal articles about how many articles I found simply trying to educate, or more often, CONVINCE doctors, to aggressively treat pain with adequate medication. Here's the article I wanted your reaction to---the title, premise and body of the article all focused on how unfounded doctors' fears of being singled out by DEA and state medical boards for either prosecution or loss of license. That the truth was that the very few physicians who have lost their license over anything to do with pain medication happened because of patient complaint to a medical board. The title of the journal article was something like "Myth of DEA Prosecution" or something like that.

At first I was glad to see the article, then upon reflection, I remembered (especially several years ago in Oregon) how rampant the fear of DEA intervention was/is among doctors. My limited view of all this still concludes that there must be constant harassment or threats or SOMETHING that doctors experience from DEA. Or from state medical boards.

Also, what I know is that states differ drastically. There is a new law in Texas that makes it difficult to prosecute doctors for anything having to do with pain medication prescriptions, but how naive I was to think that this law would affect doctors' perceptions.

The other thing is that there is a world of difference between treatment of chronic pain patients and patients who have cancer or other potentially terminal illnesses. As my sister-in-law who has cancer says, everyone is so ready to write her pain medicine prescriptions, to the point that she wants to say, enough, already.

MaryPage, I keep thinking of your experiences with your Mother and what awful memories those must be. You also reminded me of an allergic reaction my mother had to a blood transfusion just after surgery. Even being a patient just out of surgery, they let her scream with pain. That time haunts me as few others do.

So, long before there were threats from attorneys, DEA or whatever, there were old fashioned ideas about pain.

Diane:

Concerning "took longer and longer for the relief to kick in," you are talking about "tolerance." The body becomes tolerant to what is being used. Similar to what an alcoholic means when he says "I now need a 12-pack to get a buzz and I used to be able to do it with a 6-pack." Concerning "the confused feelings happened sooner" -- side effects almost always kick in before the therapeutic effects. This is one of the major reasons for "non-compliance" -- patients stopping their medication because "it made me feel worse." Physicians often fail to warn their patients in advance that there will be side effects, that they will arrive before the therapeutic effects, and that they will gradually go away but that the therapeutic effects will then start.

Betty:

As you say, there is a world of difference between "chronic" pain and "acute" pain. And pain being so subjective, when the physician doesn't find any apparent cause, the only thing left to him/her is to alleviate the pain without causing new problems.

Robby

Robby points out that people get a "tolerance" for pain medication, and this is the term that would not come to my mind when I wrote that my mother became immune to pain medications. I should have said tolerant to.

It seems to be a matter of fearing to give patients too much medication and a lack of empathy. We cannot, in truth, "feel your pain", and, too often, we just block it out. Too many medical people brush it off and block it out when a patient complains of pain.

If all the legislators in the country, including all 50 states and the U.S. Congress, suddenly had back pain or something similar and could not get relief, well, I just bet there would be legislation passed p.d.q.

So many of these new medical journal articles talk of dependence, tolerance, and other things to expect from SOME patients and urge doctors not to panic but to expect certain properties of medication. Other articles emphasize how few chronic pain patients experience ANY usual properties or side effects.

What I don't see studied but I read in anecdotal accounts on pain forums, etc., is how individual someone's reaction is to a certain medicine. That seems especially true of pain medicine. About two years ago, just after that in-hospital neurological workup, I was on timed release morphine. I hated it. It did away with pain, sure, and I had no high, no sleepiness, none of the expected side effects. However, it interferred in a big way with my reading. I had short-term memory loss. Halfway through a book, I had trouble remembering the first part. This isn't necessarily what other people experience---and it might have lessoned over time as most side effects do, but I absolutely couldn't stand it. So, I asked to try something less rigorous---it doesn't work as well SOME of the time, but I can read and think and remember---and the periodic crankiness from hurting is much preferable to the short-term memory loss. So THERE.

It is true that there are a lot of individual differences in reaction to medications.

I, for instance, am severely allergic to codeine, and it seems to run in my family. Have only had one pill once in my life, years and years ago, but it made me pass right out Instantly! Have had to plaster this all over my medical records.

Almost every one of us has something like this in their own medical histories.

I also had self-administered morphine when I had spinal fusion two years ago. I loved it. The machine was put on a seven minute cycle and I became an expert at giving myself a "hit," approximating seven minutes and then administering a second. After these two doses I slept for quite a while. When I had company, I used far less of the morphine. It was only hooked up for a day and a half, but it helped me to get through the worst of the surgical pain.

Betty, I had the same loss of short term memory years ago when I was given high doses of xanax in the hospital (also back surgery). But it was worse than yours. I couldn't even follow a TV show except to look at all the pretty colors and the faces. My short term memory did not seem to be affected by morphine, but I was only on it for a short time.

Maryal

Wow this discussion has moved into my soapbox arena- so i apoligize before i begin...

there are for me two issues here and i do not want to be misunderstood and have anyone believe that i am supporting the current convoluted allopathic medical system- but i would like to address my concerns to the consumer.

we are consumers of medical procedures and treatments and i think, especially when we are sick and adopting the sick role it is whawe forget. it is the consumer who ascribes to the physician and along with him the bureacracy that supports his practice dominance in the medical interaction. it is the consumer who has allowed the government and insurance companies to be the gatekeepers of medicine. i am not badgering the individual physician;there are some who transcend the establishment and others who buy right into it. most allopathic medical decisions today are made within the context of the "business of medicine"- and perhaps that is not such a bad thing, after all business is business. however, it is important for the patient to understand that. in return, he/she should enter into this business negotiation or have his advocate (something we talked about in previous posts) negotiate for him.

so you say i don't know all that about medicine- yep but aren't there other things we don't know a lot about yet we negotiate or make our voices heard- at the home depot checkout, with our tax man, etc. yet we allow the business of medicine to make our individual choices. we need to reflect on why.

so on the plus side, sometimes all you need to do is ask questions. the measure of a good practitioner is to not only answer your questions, but help you ask the right ones. in terms of pain and pain management i think you all hit on a good point- acute vs. chronic pain. what i do not think was addressed yet is the fact that medication is not necessary alleviating pain, it is altering the body's response to pain, some at only a physiological level others at both physiological and psychological. we have created a system that witholds these medicines in the same way we created a system that bans books, discriminates against alternative lifestyles and "punishes" unacceptable diseases. somewhere along the way we decided morphine derivatives were "bad" becuase drug addiction is "bad". just like other cultures that include hallucinogenics and other drugs into their rituals, we created a culture of exclusion. the key to me is the cultural influence of our medical practices.

there are many validated studies about the placebo effect where actual evidence was recorded that pain decreased both objectively and subjectively when the patient believed he was receiving a pain killer- why? because the body/mind interaction took control and produced the neurotransmitters necessary to block the pain sensation. i think in pain management the goal is to get these hormones and neurotransmitters to kick in- but the issue is cultural and economic on how we get this to happen. i am not saying we should all go out and ask for placebo, but i am venting a need to see us, especially us seniors, take direct action, speak up and demand the information we need to make health decisions. however, i believe our first step is to deconstruct the myth of the "gods of medicine" then accept the reality of the business of medicine.

In Tennessee, it is the state board that defines excess pain medication. Physicians have lost their licenses on review of records by the board. If it's your license, it's 100 per cent. I think a lot of this relates to the old protestant belief that it somehow shows a lack of character to take ANYTHING, even aspirin, for pain. I remember this attitude in my parents, and I am sure it is found in the state legislatures. Also, the fear of litigation runs very strong. When I asked the physician not to treat my mother for her final illness he said: "Do you have brothers and sisters?" when I said no, he said it was the right thing to do. One sibling may take the physician to court, even if several others agree to suspend treatment. Predatory lawyers actually seek people like this out. Yes, MaryAl, I think you have been angry at the wrong people, but, Hey, we have to be angry at someone for that kind of treatment.

SWN---You have me confused with someone else. I'm the morphine addict with the back surgery! And I'm not angry.

Maryal

Maryal, Swn was responding to my posting.

YiLi Lin has written a powerful piece, and she is absolutely correct in saying that we seniors must take direct action on our own behalf and demand the information we need in order to make informed decisions regarding our health care.

Both Swn and YiLi Lin have posted interesting possibilities as to why we, as a society, hold back the pain medication. We most certainly do, and it seems so dreadfully illogical that I sometimes wonder if historically it goes way, way back to fatalistic times when some people took illness and pain as punishment from the gods and therefore due them for their sins. I must say, I believe those around the ill would have held on to these beliefs a lot longer than those in exquisite pain would have done!

Excellent posts, all. I'm right with you, YiLi. We're paying for it, they are our bodies. We are the consumers.

Everything we've talked about is also somehow padlocked to the "war on drugs." The get tough syndrome.

Yes, YiLi, the body in its wholeness is capable of so much more than we know. The erratic strength in my legs and hands is directly affected by---hours of sleep, mood, physical movement. Any kind of physical movement. Playing with the cat, making a new pot of coffee, going to wash my face. Also, above all, music of two kinds can instantly lift me up out of depression or physical pain and I'm somewhere else. I've left the old spot. Classical music and, brace yourselves, hard rock---specific songs that I used to dance to or that I can say, "June, 1979, the Chicago meeting, wow."

After watching a 60 Minutes special years ago on stroke patients in a hospital who could not physically stand unassisted (no balance, strength, etc.) due to stroke damage---STOOD unassisted and danced to old familar dance tunes of their youth. The weird thing is that early into the piece, I instantly knew where they were headed before they actually said it. My body knew it. Many years ago when I was weak, but not as weak as I am now, I could dance much much longer than I could walk. (god, is there anything I won't tell you guys??) This tv special proposed that the music centers of the brain are connected to physical movement centers. I'd never thought that consciously, but my body had known it. Now I believe, but it's only an opinion, that music centers of the brain have some connection to neurotransmitters that affect other centers associated with movement, pain, mood.

I have read that the brain grooves in special pathways to everything. Thus it is that practice makes perfect, as in diving, skiing, dancing, etc. The brain all by itself can take over and make the body do what it has done over and over and over again. That is why, for instance, if you have moved jobs or your home and you get in the car to go to work and are thinking about something ELSE, the brain takes over and takes you back to your old job (or to your old home, etc.). Fascinating stuff.

I'm still chuckling, MaryPage. I kept reading your first sentence one way and I think you meant it in another. I first read, "....the brain grooves (cool, man) in special pathways...." and you meant "grooves in (pause) special pathways." hehehehe, like, cool, man, way out.

Hey, if I ever lose my senses and find myself in the hands of doctors (shudder!), I want you guys as my ombudsmen!

Robby, do you have any idea how comforting your post was? Not a single doctor informed us of the likely side effects of the various pain medications - despite the fact that I ALWAYS ask. I also always double-check with our pharmacist but nothing prepared us for the agony of the last few weeks? days? whatever it's been.

As I mentioned, Del has become apprehensive of the pain medication because of the extreme disorientation that goes along with the (eventual) pain relief. The feeling it gives him is similar to they way he felt after experiencing two mild strokes four years ago. And to me, he talks, walks and thinks the way he did then. We both hate it.

But I must say this. While visiting his new doctor, a sports medicine specialist last week who kept him lying flat on a table while he was being examined, his pain became so extreme that he took a methadone right while in the doctor's office. The resulting nasty feelings took over later that afternoon and, to our dismay, lasted through the next day. Either on this one pill or else he experienced a TIA. I phoned the doctor's office and they said to take him to the ER. We've been that route before and see that little help is offered and a lot of expense is generated. It was very tough for me but I had to agree that I could care for him better at home. I made sure that he ate nourishing foods, I rubbed essential oils (Helichrysum) on his back and around the base of his head (this is another whole subject - sorry), rubbed his feet and did what I knew of reflexology, and let him sleep a lot. A whole lot.

I don't know exactly where I'm going with this but Del is feeling a lot better today. I'm continuing with the Helichrysum (and he's not objecting as much! - I'm the alternative health nut - not him!). The last bout with the Methadone was so terrifying that I think Del's body is reacting defensively, thinking, "holy smokes, if that's what happens when I hurt, it must be better to not hurt!". Does this make any sense, Robby?

Betty, what a fascinating post. Fairly recently I attended a lecture on sound therapy and exactly the same data was mentioned - that stroke victims will often respond to familiar music long after other responses have vanished. Boy!, I know that some music does reach me so deeply inside. I've always reacted hugely to Russian music - especially by the Russian Marching Band and Chorus. And Dvoraks's Slavonic Dances (hope I have that right).

And MaryPage, you of the "groovey" brain! But you're so right. Long ago when I learned typing in high school (which I didn't particularly enjoy but thank goodness I learned!), I noticed that the repetition did something really nifty - eventually I didn't have to "think" about where the "W" was, or anything else - the autopilot took over. It's a wonderful adaptive measure that we all have and I often think that the untapped potential is enormous. For example, how long would I have to practice Brahm's Lullaby, or anything else, to be able, eventually, to play it easily. Or repeat French vocabulary/grammar, etc.

Oh, I'm getting way carried away again. Just want to say that I'm glad to have read this book that I really didn't care for that much.Without it I would have missed all this great talk. Thanks for indulging me.

Diane, methadone is a synthetic compound, works well on pain for some people. I had a hard time with it. In general, side effects of pain medications (and other medications) fade away over time. But, from this distance, none of us could determine if your husband's reactions are side effects or something else.

Your instincts, your gut reaction is what I'd really listen to. An anesthesiologist who has experience treating older folks might be a good source for you. I'd avoid "pain clinics" who do not have anesthesiologists on board, even big hospital pain clinics.

Now, here's just personal opinion (maybe bias)---I wonder sometimes why methodone is prescribed, does it mean someone thinks morphine is dangerous? There are no differences of the "dangerous" things, that I know of. It's just that when I hear of a really satisfied patient who finally got good care, I just don't remember that many saying, yeah, it's methadone.

Finally, thank goodness he has you. I don't doubt for a minute that those "alternative" therapies are making a difference. Wonderful example of you listening to your instincts.

Whenever I take a prescription drug I ALWAYS ask the pharmacist for a printout of the drugs side effects, components, what it's used for, drug interaction warnings, etc. I wonder how many people know they can ask for this.

Yep Sound Therapy is amazing. So is chanting, a way to access the healing of certain sounds and drive them deep into the body. Some gigong practices require only humming. I am "dependent" on sound. For every interaction with an allopathic physician starting back in 1993 with my first surgery, I do not even go to the doctor, never mind hospital or surgeries without my portable tape player that automatically flips over the tape. the measure now of a good doctor for me is whenever i have day or what they call minor procedures, i will only agree to the procedure if the doctor allows me to bring the tape into the OR. Two years ago a doctor agreed, then asked if they could put my tape in his recorder- promising he would not turn it off when i was under anesthesia. After surgery the doctor and anesthesiologist thanked me, they felt so much better and believed they performed their jobs better- thanks to my music. cool huh?

YiLi---what is the music on your tape?

changed it. I wish we were able to post directly after the message to which we are responding.

SWN--No problem. I finally figured out who you were posting to (should be whom) myself. And MaryPage didn't get confused. Just me. OOops.

You asked that I post in this round table, about the government "prescription program" for all Seniors. Well, what I was referring to is that both the Republican (Bush) and especially the Democrat (Gore) have as one of their planks in their platform to get you to vote for them is a "free prescription program" through Medicare for ALL Senior citizens. Please notice - they specify "prescription", so only prescription writing doctors will be included which will,in all liklihood,exclude homiopathic medicines, vitamin/mineral and other supplements, herbs and anything other than what the pharmceutical houses are producing. How in the world can we fight something like that? And, because it will be provided by the taxpayers, the Seniors are going to be even more willing to take whatever the doctor prescribes. How sad.

On the other hand, there are some medications that are keeping people alive. Drugs they would quite literally die without. And a lot of these Seniors are unable to afford enough food, let alone any clothing or other necessities, because they have to pay so much for these life-saving drugs.

And others are dying because they cannot afford them.

Right here in these United States of America! I, myself, could not live without my thyroid medication, because I do not have a thyroid. Fortunately, I can afford it. Not all prescription drugs are without merit!

When it is my time to die I will be it run over by a truck or an accident in my car. I do however use a steam heat with Eucapliptus oil. I also do not trust medicene but I check all medicene out first as I have many allery's I am told by my Dr. and got sun cancer where the sun don't shine by found out that I am alercic to the sun so that is how it happened.

However I got oil poisening from where I worked and half of my friends died of it so I feel very lucky to be alive today.

Ginger

Boy, this book has inspired all kinds of discussion. Back to Flu, etc., did anyone else see the long piece on West Nile virus on the television show Sunday Morning? So interesting and quite alarming. Someone interviewed said there have been periods in history when all kinds of "new" bacteria and viruses show up all at once and that we are going through one of those periods now. AIDS, etc. He and others who are in the middle of tracking the progress of West Nile virus say it can only get worse. The piece began with an unsettling reminder that all these organisms have been around far longer than we have and will most likely be here forever. That our tampering with the natural order of the environment is what introduces the bacteria and viruses into our lives. The island (name?) who transported (transplanted) deer to its woods now is the Lime disease capital of the world (deer tics).

On the other hand the chances of contracting West Nile Virus are about one in a million - statistically almost nil. Does the focus given this "new" virus warrant it? Your chances of getting behind the wheel of your car and surviving are much much less. Of course, we're in control (we like to think) of what happens when we're driving - unlike what may happen when we're bitten by a mosquito.

earl- hmmm I wonder if we can start a bit of a "swell"- after all we do it with book discussions. i would like to know if anyone has written to his/her representative and said that they would like altnerative therapies and botanicals included in the plan? but I do agree that there are a number of prescription drugs that seniors need and i would not like to see the whole idea washed out. maybe i am being a bit too cavalier, i just keep thinking that too often we all have ideas, opinions and excellent observations about a life condition and rarely do we feel empowered enough to believe we can make a change. (maybe we can't but we don't know until we try.) and yes in a way this is clearly related to our Book- Hultin our role model.

I am 100% in favor to have a "drug program" for Seniors, what I am deploring is their exclusion of vitamin/mineral supplements, homeopathic medicines when they require that they be "by perscription only."

'gotcha!

I thought you were excluding all prescribed medicines.

Sorry about that!

Marypage

I was wondering. Since we're talking here about various rare and really horrific diseases, I think we should do a follow-up on one of Ginny's suggestions: An in-depth discussion of Toenail Fungus!

Lorrie

Yili, I love your idea of contacting our representatives and asking, no - insisting, that alternatives be included in any forthcoming health care plans.

Did anyone else read the recent WHO study that rated countries on their respective levels of health care? I didn't see many details but do remember that France rated #1 and the U.S. #37. I think also the U.S. was #1 in COST while France was much lower.

So, doesn't it seem logical that we would want to check and find out what they're doing in France that is so beneficial (and inexpensive!) and incorporate some of that here? Huh, doesn't it?

Two things I think I know about the French system: 1) they use essential oils in their hospitals and doctors' offices to prevent spread of germs; 2) therapeutic massages are commonly "prescribed" as part of overall treatments.

Well, also 3) I believe French doctors (in fact, just about all doctors except those trained in the U.S) are trained in the therapeutic use of supplements and nutrition. Also homeopathy. Sounds like a dream system to me.

One more item - TB. A recent newspaper article stated that Bill Gates is donating $45 million to Harvard to fight drug-resistant strains of TB. The same article goes on to state that, "Peru has a pilot program that can cure patients with drug-resistant TB at a fraction of what it costs to treat them in the U.S..." Nothing was reported about what the Peru program consisted of but I wonder. Maybe sunshine and fresh air as opposed to flourescent lights and stale, recycled hospital air? Anyone else hear anything about this?

Lorie, I soak my feet in hot water and Epsonsalts (sp) for what ever reason and it works.

Took the flu book back today and picted up the Rime, It has such beautiful pictures Just like the tape.

Hope to see you in Minnesota but the weather may be a problem we shall see.

Ginger

Diane, I agree with you.

Ginger: Check the Minnesota page!

Lorrie

OK

Charlie, I'm still enjoying the changing photos on the page and I surely would join in to any groundswell or movement to have prescriptions paid for by Medicare or whatever agency.

I have a Mobile Meals route and there are some people who simply are without. Without medicines for advanced diseases like Diabetes, without family, without much in the way of Social Security, I don't know why that is, but it's so.

As I've been doing this for 15 years in the rural South, some of the cases have been very hard to watch. Many times neighbors and friends and church members take up a lot of slack that family or more money might.

I've been impressed with the spirit and determination of many of the very elderly and alone people we have met, some of whom live alone in their late 90's. I think they deserve more, especially in the way of presecription drugs. I don't see how some of them actually got as far as they have.

Old age is not for sissies, that's the truth.

Cheers to all of you, no matter what your age is!

ginny

I love it- old age is not for sissies- that is our fundraising bumper sticker to get $ to buy the stamps for a massive mail in to the reps!

Diane I think the French also drink wine

Where did Germany rank on that list? The German health system which supports botanicals and homeopathic remedies has a wonderful network of health spas, several of which have performed documented research in various modialities including hydrotherapy for a wide variety of chronic conditions. One- i need to look it up- recently received national recognition for its treatment protocols.

I think this is why I was really interested in how other countries responded (or didn't) to the flu, and would have liked this book to have provided more insight on the historical perspective from these countries.

Oh, Ginny, what a wonderful slogan! " OLD AGE IN NOT FOR SISSIES!" I think I'll put it up in large letters in our next newsletter. I live in a senior hi-rise for older people, it's in a nice neighborhood, with decent apartments some of which are subsidized by HUD. Many of the tenants here are in their 80's and 90's, and most of them have been here for 15 to 20 years. But now we are losing our subsidy, and the owners have jumped the rents 200%, making it definitely unaffordable for these people, who are already balancing the budget between skipping meals and buying presription drugs. To ask some of these elderly people to move out and give up the only home they've known now for so many years seems to me to be extremely cruel. Naturally there is no affordable housing anywhere, so it's not uncommon to find these old ladies sitting in their apartments crying. I wish some of those people in Washington could see how a lot of us older people see death as an only alternative to what they perceive to be ahead of them---sometimes I get so furious I could scream! I organized a committee long ago and have been working with various organizations, and we've flooded Washinton with tons of mail, but I can't see any difference. Forgive me for sounding off but this is a subject that I've put a lot of thought into, and work! My point is that all the treatments and cures in the world can't help a patient very much when they have to suffer such a sense of insecurity about basic living.

Lorrie

Lorrie, that's terrible, what can we do? US? We're good people here, what can we do?

There must be something?

ginny

Thank you so much for asking, Ginny! I've already posted this in the Round Tables folder dealing with Senior Housing and such, and got some positive feedback, mostly people asking the same question as you. I don't know what else we can do, we've been hammering both ocal and Washington legislators, those incumbent as well as running for office, but it seems as though the answers we get all come from the same copy machine. It would help if everyone would write to whomever is in charge of their district, and simply demand more affordable housing for the elderly, and not just for them! HUD says if they get sufficient funding they will continue to seek out places in which to assist people who are in desperate need. So write, write, write!! Thanks for asking, Ginny!

Lorrie

I think you can understand now how the people in my building feel as we watch the "millionaire madness" enfold around us, and see nothing but Greed, greed, and disregard for the plights of others right now. It's a mind-set I see daily that I am not happy with.

Except for all the wonderful people here, of course! Your immediate question is an example. Bless these "bookies!"

Lorrie

Lorrie, WHY did you lose the subsidy for housing for the elderly?

Please explain why. Who did it?

Mary Page, that's easy. During the Carter administration, I think, (I'm not sure of the exact year) a law was enacted to allow owners of private rental properties to obtain a government loan at an exceedingly low interest rate with the proviso that a certain percentage of each building would be set aside for rent to low-income seniors. At that time, many new apartment buildings went up, and a waiting list formed at each one for these apartments. Each eligible tenant had to fulfill certain guidelines, such as total assets and income not exceeding a certain amount, disabilies, and of course medical expenses. This was a wonderful opportunity for many people to move into apartments they couldn't otherwise afford, and the status of each renter was known only to the tenant and the office. It was an ideal solution for many of the older parents who wanted to retain their independence, and it worked out well for everyone, until three years ago Congress declared that these same landlords could prepay their government loans, if they wished. Most of the owners immediately opted for this, and declared that the new rents would immediately go "to market rent." Some people were given only 30 days to find another apartment, but the uproar that arose locally forced this particular state now to require the owners to announce their intent to prepay and then adjust the rent difference with a six-month notice. It wouldn't be so bad if there were alternative places to move to, but like the rest of the country rents here are priced too high for meost people on fixed incomes to afford, other than Public Housing, and even that has a long waiting list. Some owners, like ours, say they will continue to work with HUD, provided the money is guaranteed by HUD, but reports lately say that that funding will not be forthcoming. We will still work at getting the message out, but I don't have much hope.

Locally some developers, in conjunction with state and local agencies, attempted to build affordable housing in various suburbs around the city, but all were turned down by the group mentality of Not In My Back Yard."

The bottom line, then, is once again greed.

Mary Page: Exactly. We have an ally in Senator Wellstone, who is trying to introduce a bill to cover exactly this problem (more funding for HUD) and when and if he succeeeds in doing this I'll let you all know the particular number and status of such a bill and urge you all to write your representatives and senators to pass it.

We're all grateful to Senator Wellstone. (Remember the upstart little guy who campaigned from the back of a decrepit old bus?) He's been wonderful, and so has Bruce Vento, our representative, who unfortunately has devleoped cancer.

Thank you all for your compassionate interest. It's so good to know that other people care.

Lorrie

Ginny: do you know that for some very expensive medications the drug company will provide free drugs for poor people at the doctor's request? I was able to get taxominifin provided for my mother's old housekeeper by asking the doctor to write to the drug company. It made a lot of difference in her life. No one should have to choose between medications and food.

Well of course we all care, especially about our Lorrie, we're all comrades in arms here and I will surely write, we'll have a groundswell of literate Bookies on Parade! Who KNOWS?? You never know until you try.

SWT: NO Ma'am, I surely did not know that and I do appreciate the information! I will pass it on every time I encounter a case, this is not just in Tennessee, is it? Great information!

This has turned out to be not only an informative book discussion of a book which I didn't much take to, but a really important discussion, I think, of crucial issues, too.

Great job.

How would you all rate the Book on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best book you ever read and 1 being the worst: couldn't finish it.

Did the author (going to use here the B&N fiction characteristics for grading) make the characters interesting enough, were they fleshed out enough to keep your interest?

Did the author make the plot of the book flow in an interesting manner?

What did you learn from reading this book?

Is this a good "plane" or "beach" book?

Would you recommend it to your friends?

Was it a fun book to read?

OK, those are all the corrupted things I can meld for non fiction.

OH, here's one: if this book were made into a movie, who do you see as Hultin?

ginny

Sorry to be so late posting for this discussion but have been off line most of the month. Coming back on today, Ginny, finding your questions, I do have some thoughts to share, even tho late. I found this to be a very exciting, yes exciting book to read and have recommended it again and again mainly because it seemed to spur others to think and discuss real problems that confronts us all(our health) and need for policies to solve them. With issues of medicine and research we historically have left the solutions to the more highly trained or folk lore--our lack of basic understanding made this so, but currently those with the training are much too busy and thus our frustration with our doctor, health programs and institutions. Add to this a growing desire to make our own choices especially about our own bodies. One solution: a good science reporter--which I found Kolata to be--along with A. Verghese and Laurie Garrett. They seem to make the complicated more understandable for us untrained and even tho they're not historians, they can assist in the perspective of all things considered. The people in this book seemed very real and their work, tedious but exciting--I guess you would say, I liked the book! Yvonne

Rating=3
Interesting characters - but then again, these were real people and the I get a little but of a feeling that they were MORE interesting then Kolata portrayed.

Flow? No. Choppy and disjointed.
I did learn a lot, as this was a subject of which I knew nothing.

No recommendation, except do not take it to the beach. When (and you will) you fall asleep reading it - you'll get a severe burn on one side.

Max von Sydow would have to play Hultin.

[EDIT] Cross-posted with Yvonne. Please note that this is NOT a response to HERS!! I respect her thoughts and perspective on the book.

I suppose I'm to the point that the only criteria I need in a book such as this is---is the information verifiable, how rigorous and careful was the author's research. Does it read as if authenticity came before style? Yes, but I'm ok with that. I'd prefer good science in a more readable form, but I so detest all the pop-science, pop-psych and self-help books on the market that I welcome this book, choppy style and all (good word, choppy, just what I was looking for).

Yvonne, I like your "all things considered" sentence.

Yvonne, SO glad to see you, I have MISSED you, so glad you're back, and what a good review!

Charlie, that's fabulous, Choppy Charlie! That's great!

Another good point, Betty, what DO we look for in a book such as this?

I like "choppy," too.

---

Waiting for everybody else's ratings or final thoughts and I would just like to say this:

We all hope to get different things out of a book discussion. To ME, the very best discussions are those in which you have totally opposing viewpoints and those are civily and cordially spoken, and we each learn somthing from the others' POV. THOSE are the best.

The books all say, "Avoid, at the outset, whether or not you liked the book. We learn something from every book we read, what have you learned from this book?"

I've got to go off and will put the Points of Criteria in the very bottom of the heading to make it easier for you to select a particular point if you like.

YOu don't have to agree, disagree or even use those points in your summation or assessment of the book. YOUR POV (point of view) is just as valid as any other persons, including the author's. What YOU think adds to the body of what we ALL think here, so don't be SHY in expressing yourself, whether or not you agree or disagree, that's not the point.

The point IS, what's YOUR opinion?

Back at ya later,

ginny

Meant to add that Mass has just voted to allow limited flu shots to be given by pharmacists. I was surprised to learn that many states (none in New England) already allow this. Did you know that?

what i learned from this book is that the flu epidemic of 1918 took the STRONGest people. i like knowing my unknown-to-me grandmother was one of the strong ones.

i would rate the book a 6. once i finally had time to read it, it went very fastand was fun to read. but i felt kolata's biases were too obvious. once we read that kirsty had "doe-eyes", did she have any kind of a chance? i was disappointed in the representation that scientists are as cut throat as they are seen here. but it's a world i know nothing about.

hultin the hero. i just loved his quiet perserverance. in the film, johan hultin should play johan hultin. is he attractive or what?

is it a beach book? not in the usual sense. but today i finished it on the island of st. marguerite under the chirping symphony of crickets clinging to the umbrella pines.

because of this book i feel i know more about my grandmother. can't argue with that.

Because of this book and our discussion I now know more great stuff about Fairwinds and a lot of you, and you can't argue with that either.

I came back in a hurry to say while we're waiting for everybody's assessments that I did inquire of one of the residents in a very nice single story housing development for seniors that I take meals to in which every person has a very nice ground floor single apartment, what the rent was.

One of our ladies is the sister of my Mobile Meals partner, and she said the rent depends on your income, hers was $69 dollars per month for the last several months but that she had had a "raise" in either her SS or pension and that it went up $13 dollars per month.

So that's an example of what's available here, anyway. Don't know of you all want to move, Lorrie, but I'd sure like you closer!!!

There are no services of any kind, it's just independent living. But it really is nice and attractive, and safe.

---

I'm glad I read this book, and very glad for this discussion. Many times if you belong to a Book Club you end up reading what you would not have chosen yourself, but you read it so that the next time they might read one of yours.

This Fall (actually next month, but we celebrate it in October) will be our 4th Anniversary of this book club, and in the last four years we have read one and sometimes two books a month in this one group alone: that's a lot of books. I think it's fun and good discipline and keeps the mind sharp, as well.

I am glad you all are participating here on the eve of our Fourth Anniversary Party, and I hope you will be here on our 40th!

Back in a mo, what's YOUR rating of this book?

ginny

Well I'll try to stay focused here--I'd rate the book a "7" with this footnote that the discussions were equally informing! Yvonne

"All things considered" yep okay book. I think what I liked best was its an easy read- so beach, plane, front porch, it was not the kind of book that interrupted other readings or agendas. I was most interested in the picture of the flu travelling through the army barracks and give a good rating to the fact that the author dug up this dormant information- even to care where the graves were.

Most of my other recent nonfiction reading has been in those crime/cop/corruption books and they have a more engaging style- least the ones i've read.

a movie- hmm not sure this will have the draw of ebola or al pacino running around in a white suit, i don't think people see flu as an immediate threat- and there doesn't seem to be an underdog to blame...but then again in the hands of a good writer.....

Before you leave here, don't miss clicking on the link for Chapter 9: some really stunning pictures "Arctic Pictures from Hornsund, Spitsbergen"

Charlie

MaryPage.....Where is your son located in Missour? I have worked in the medical field in Columbia, Mo. for years.....Would be interesting if he is in Columbia......More likely in St.Louis or K.C......I am findin this conversation on the "FLU" book fascinating.......Nancy

Nancy, he is in Springfield, and he is my son-in-law. He works in a lab there.

Charlie, Thank you for mentioning the pictures. The Northern Lights are so beautiful.

My apologies for breaking in here, but this is in regard to a post made several days ago, and we need everyone's help here:

Another link to check into a letter for writing to your lawmakers in regard to the Affordable Housing for Seniors and Families Act (S-2733)!

Affordable Housing Letter

Lorrie

I love Springfield , Missouri...Close to where I was born..By the way Chlorox will kill both the HIV and Hepatitis B virus.....The smell may be offensive to some, however I love the clean smell of it....Chlorx "clean up" is quite handy and nice...I use in the kitchen all the time....Is the next book you are going to do here and discuss "The Stain" ? I can't believe how much I have learned from this one discussion....

tigerliley, I guess I am walking behind you today as I saw you in Mo. then the welcome page and now here. Will be in Branson next week at this time if all goes well. A Big Welcome to you here. It is so good to have you here with us Bookies. I had to laugh about the books in the car etc. because I also do that. I just got the Micheal Reagan book and it looks good what I have read of it. It is all about his life. That is one of the books I am carrying on the front seat of my car. Talk to you later I'm sure. Ginger

Ginger what fun!!!!! You know I may never get in housework done again....I usually have my nose stuck in a book, and now it will be also stuck on the computer screen!!! Your going to probably be really warm in Mo. so be prepared....Are you driving or flying?

tigerlily...chlorax kills HIV? in a petri dish?

tigerliley, I will be driving as I was asked to go with a lady I worked with and have know for some 40 years as she does not see to well so her son will need help with the driving reading the map etc. so they have a hotel room for the three of us paid for. I will be working my way there. HO HO HO and off to work I go.

I know what you mean about keeping the house clean, don't breathe in to hard or you will catch the household dust from here. HA HA HA. Gnger

is there such a thing as a face mask that keeps out viruses? i wouldn't be embarrassed to wear it on the plane. that neosporin has done it's job sofar but i have a flight september 10 to california and my active imagination is already thinking of this year's new flu mutation circulating on that flight. the fall timing would be just about perfect.

charlie...love the spitzbergen polar bear photos.

By the way...Lysol has on the label: "Kills HIV Virus"*

Then the "*" in small print says something about "on pre-cleaned surfaces" and other caveats.

tigerliley - Click on Books & Literature at the bottom of this page and screoll down to Coming Attractions where you'll see three discussions starting on 9/1 and another couple coming in October. Many, many more to come. Welcome.

Fairwinds.....I worked in a dialysis unit for many years..Much concern in this community about passing any bloodborne diseases..We orderd chlorox by the gallons every week as this is what we used to clean machines and disinfect all surfaces......chairs, tables, cabinets etc..... I love Chlorox "clean-up" as I said and have it in the kitchen, bath etc.....It did a good job of removing mildew from walls on the screened in porch to..... Ginger you be careful on the roads....I - 70 through Missouri is a killer...It runs east and west so you probably won't be on it..Much discussion here on making an entirely new highway East and West..Just to much traffic to carry it anymore..... Ohfairwinds I laughed at the picture of you and the ointment in the nose!!!! If you can do that why be embarrased to wear a face mask. The travelers will just think YOU have something that you are protecting them from....I don't think the run of the mill masks will protect you from the TB germ but probably would for some other things... We had to have specially fitted special masks to care for TB patients AND they had to be in specially ventilated rooms....

Oh Charlie...Thanks for the information about the next discussions..Will do as you said ....Appreciate your help

Very interesting reading that you worked in a dialysis unit for many years! We now feel as if we own a spot in ours! So many hours each week are spent there now with my husband on dialysis! Lots of time to read though!

Pat

OK, I'm going to go ahead and give my own rating here since we're in the final days of the discussion.

I'll start by giving an A++ to our Charlie for giving the discussion such a jump start and for his marvelous ever changing photos in the heading.

You may not know it, but that takes a lot of time and dedication. I think that we here in the Books are very lucky to have such great people like Charlie spearheading our discussions.

Look at that one today: marvelous. MAZELTOV, Charlie, and thanks.

I'm going to give the discussion itself an A+ for the things I learned, the topical relevance to other social issues brought up, and the wonderful input from everybody. I learned how to avoid colds on planes and await the inside word on viruses, we are all learning something here.

ON the book itself, I really don't feel so charitably inclined.

Here's my opinion on it:

*****How would you all rate the book on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best book you ever read and 1 being the worst: couldn't finish it. You don't need to use THESE criteria, any will do, but these may serve as a starting point:

I'm going to give it a 3. I had to force myself to read it, it was a chore.

******Did the author (going to use here the B&N fiction characteristics for grading) make the characters interesting enough, were they fleshed out enough to keep your interest?

Yes the characters were amazing, even if the author presented a somewhat slanted view of them. It would be interesting to get THEIR opnions, to interview Duncan.

***** Did the author make the plot of the book flow in an interesting manner?

No here the author fell down, I think, by trying to include too much in too haphazard a way. I think the writing at the end of the book shows you what it could have been and I bet it was written first. I think the material ran away with her.

******What did you learn from reading this book?

A lot of things. That there was a 1918 flu which I had never heard of. I'm fascinated by the dedication of these people in medicine who try to overcome these diseases.

****** Is this a good "plane" or "beach" book?

Definitely not.

****** Would you recommend it to your friends?

No.

******* Was it a fun book to read?

Not for me.

*******If this book were made into a movie, who do you see as Hultin?

Well in his old age how about Sean Connery? He's played such a part before, actually. He'd be perfect.

Any last thoughts here in the waning days of the discussion before we turn our thoughts in the Book Club Online to Philip Roth's The Human Stain?

Thank you for making a great discussion out of a not so great (in my opinion only) book.

ginny

Ditto the thanks to Charlie- I remain amazed - the dedication and talent - thank you.

I like the book. Am only half way through it, as I have just too much to do and am reading about 8 books, no, more like a dozen, all at once. Any book that makes me think and ponder and hones my curiosity to know more about the subject matter, is a good book in my estimation. I would give it a B+.

My granddaughter tells me, to my intense surprise, that her husband the virologist says: "Almost anything can kill a virus. There are so many with so many different characteristics, that a given virus might be killed by virtually anything, including Lysol!"

But that does not take care of the viruses that might enter your body and the diseases they might bring you. There is no way we can rid our planet of the dangerous viruses; they will be around long after we are gone. So stay away from crowds, wild animals, mice, etc. Keep your environment clean. Pray that the researchers keep ahead of the curve on finding out how to treat the diseases the viruses bring to us.

My granddaughter recommends we all read "THE HOT ZONE" by Richard Preston. It is out in paperback now, and Barnes and Noble carries it.

Charlie yes, you were a wonderful discussion leader - I can't imagine the time and energy that you put into it but a big thank you - even though I didn't contribute a lot.

I received this book from my library way ahead of the discussion so I'll let that be my excuse. I do remember very much looking forward to this book because I generally dig into books on medical/health issues. As I said earlier, I was not expecting a Robin Cook thriller but I did think there was enough inherent true-to-llife drama that this would be a real page-turner. It didn't take long to see that this was not going to play through to my expectations. There were high points, though.

By the end, my impression was that this might have been a worthwhile research project but even that, not up to par. I mean, to have her (Kolata's) talent, energies of research and all, and yet to not have produced something better.

Reminds me of when my husband and I hear, for example, a piano concert performed by someone extremely talented but who, yet, makes some glaring (to us) errors. Neither of us gifted painists, mind you - but GOOD listeners! Our inevitable comment, whispered to each other is, "If I could play THAT well, I'd play better". We no longer even have to say that - we just nudge.

But the real good thing about this book is, as others have said, the wonderful discussion we've had. I really do treasure that. I look forward to lurking again with this group - and participating more.

P.S. Did anyone else have trouble getting past Pina Colada when reading the author's name?

Ginny, thanks for the loose structure, good guidance----and to you and Charlie and ??? for the terrific links above---you guys really outdo yourselves each time. I think it's just now sinking in how much pre-discussion work goes into the preparations. I was describing the resources and general set up of our book discussions to someone last week after a question of his made me realize that he was picturing something between sleepy 7th grade book reports and "Did you like it?"...."Yeah, I liked it" online chat.

After my telling of resource links to interviews with authors, giving him examples of who and what (Japanese woman in Japan responding to U.S. WWII veterans' perspectives of Hiroshima, describing our research library (spelled B.a.r.b.a.r.a), it occurred to me mid-boast that some of our discussions are equivalent to a good, if mini, graduate school class. Without final exams.

hahhaha, Diane, Pina Colada, every time! hahahahaaa I couldnt get past that, even when assured that she was pretty well known, you mind just makes those associations and will not shut up!

I do so enjoy your comments always!

MaryPage, thank you for that surprising report back, and you are right, I expect there's a real difference between a flat solid surface and the human body in terms of hospitable environment for a virus, too. It's interesting how the virologist says almost anything would kill one out of the body, so that makes you wonder IF you really NEED Lysol (says the woman whose house could be called House o Lysol). It's also been amazing to me how many nurses or people connected with the medical profession use bleach so much! Thanks for that!

Betty, another fabulous post with quotable quotes. I agree with you totally, the hardest thing we've had to DO in 4 years and the only negative thing, to me, of doing online book clubs is convincing people who have not tried us of their genuine worth! We need to have a membership drive and get the word out, thank you so much for attempting to do just that!

ginny

Final exams will be on October 15th this year...

Ginny: I think that adding a few more non-fiction books would help a membership drive. I'm all for fiction and we have some good ones here but experience with GG, Bradlee, DinA, etc. indicates, I believe, that this might draw some others into B&L.

Robby

Yes, Robby, you are right, those are very successful discussions, all.

When we lost LJ Klein, we lost our Non Fiction Coordinator and we've not recovered from that yet. Charlie Wendell is our Fiction Coordinator, and if we had 10 more Charlies, (and Robbys) we would rule the world, I believe.

Here are our current and coming attractions:

 

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    ---20th Century: Greatest Generation PART I ~ READ ONLY (1060 messages) 
    ---Great Books: Canterbury Tales NEW (252 messages) 
    ---Great Books: Canterbury Tales READ ONLY (1416 messages) 
    ---Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (97 messages) 
    ---Romance: The Secret ~ Julie Garwood ~ (68 messages) 

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                                 Coming Attractions 



    ---Biography: A Good Life ~ by Ben Bradlee ~ 9/1/00 (139 messages) 
    ---Poetry: The Rime of the Ancient Mariner ~ 9/1/00 (350 messages) 
    ---Book Club Online: The Human Stain ~ by Philip Roth ~ 9/1/00 (34 messages) 
    ---New Fiction: White Teeth ~ by Zadie Smith ~ 10/1 (55 messages) 
    ---New Fiction: Becoming Madame Mao ~ by Anchee Min ~ 10/22 (30 messages) 
    ---Romance: My Darline Caroline~ Adele Ashworth ~ Sept. 1 (1 message) 

And of these 12 potential and current discussions, 4 are non fiction. So that's not too bad, but we can and will do better. I think we have a nice balance and we're about to open a new general Non Fiction area in the general discussions. Not sure yet whether or not it will include True Crime and Biography, too. We do need a place to talk about those. Thanks for the suggestion!

ginny

It has taken me a long to find my way, and the time to search; but here I am at last. May I join you ? I have been a bona finde member of the AOL SrN Book Discussions & Review group for a few years and am also one of the SN WREXERS. Reading is a consuming passion.

Since I have recently read with absolute fascinaton the amazing book WAITING by Ha Jin, who left China in the mid-eighties, I would like to participate in the upcoming discussion of Anchee Min's book about Madame Mao. Min left China at roughly the same time Ha Jin did. A comparison might be inevitable.

I hope I am not intrud

I am not sure why the last few letters of my post have been omitted. Of course the word is "intruding".

Welcome Traude! It's good to have you with us. You don't even need those excellent credentials. You can just walk in off the street, as it were! Check out all the discussions that are currently running in Books as well as the ones that are about to start. I think you will find the discussions interesting and the people friendly.

Maryal

Traude- PLEASE do join us on October 22d for Becoming Madame Mao. You have perhaps already seen the Discussion in Coming Attractions and any Discussion that you can see, you can post in. You may be interested to also see the ARCHIVED discussion of Waiting. Welcome.

Oh, Traude, Welcome, Welcome!! I feel as though we're old friends because I have read so many of your posts in the WREXERS page. It's so good to see your name here, and I hope to see it in some or all of the wonderful upcoming discussions. Don't forget "The Human Stain" by Phillip Roth, or the group of seafaring stalwarts who will be sailing through the passages of Coleridge's "Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner!" I hope to see you posting everywhere.

Lorrie

Thank you all for your welcome, especially Lorrie who had encouraged me long ago to check by here. It took me a while to learn how to even check IN never mind BY ! NOW I must learn how to NAVIGATE -- (I have come across "archives" somewhere and must try hard to find them again - to check on the review of WAITING, inter alia). The possibilities are overwhelming.

If I may ask, what is the modus operandi ? Who chooses any given book, who sets the agenda ? Can any book other than the one presently scheduled for review be mentioned ? WHERE will the Sep 1 discussion of THE HUMAN STAIN take place ? Here or elsewhere ?

There is a great deal to learn for someone as technically inept as I am. Please have patience and be assured of my immense gratitude. Traude

and a dazzling array of wonderful books that were discussed here. To see the beloved titles alone is a true gift. In my exuberance I may have overlooked WAITING. Will have to look again. A veritable literary gold mine ! T.

TRAUDE- When you're anywhere in Books & Literature, you can always scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the Books & Literature Link. This will take you to the Main Page. Scroll THAT page and you'll see all the many Discussions available.

• modus operandi? - Message Board type Discussions
• Who chooses any given book, who sets the agenda? - Books are chosen in many ways from suggestions to voting to Discussions being "offered" to gauge interest. You'll probably see them all at one time or another. The "agenda" for a discussion is most always set by the participants with the guidance of the Discussion Leader. This too, can take many forms.
• Can any book other than the one presently scheduled for review be mentioned? But of course. We have a number of places where this is encouraged. The LIBRARY for one. You can talk about books any time of the day or night there - or most anything else for that matter. There is a BEACH BOOKS discussion. There is a Philip Roth Discussion. There is a PRIZED FICTION DISCUSSION. Soon, there will be a NEW FICTION Discussion. All of these can be found on the MAIN PAGE.
• The SEP 1 The Human Stain Discussion (now in COMING ATTRACTIONS) will move up to CURRENT DISCUSSIONS on that date

.

Hope this answers most of your questions. See you around!

Charlie

Traude---And one more thing---once you find a discussion you want to return to, you can "subscribe" to it at the bottom of the page. The subscribe and check subsciptions buttons are right above the message box where you write. If you have subscribed, you can hit the check subscriptions button when you come on, and you will be taken directly to the discussion(s) you have chosen and will see only the messages that have been posted since your last visit.

Maryal

Hi Traude- looking forward to chatting with you in October- yes waiting was a wonderful book and we certainly explored a lot of side issues.

Oh, Traude, I'm so glad to see you posting in the Books and Literature section! These people are wonderfully kind and gracious, and any one of them would be happy to guide you to where you want to go. Charlie, our Co-ordinator, who has already answered some of your questions, is a gem, as are all the Discussion Leaders you will be meeting. Looking forward to seeing your posts!

Lorrie

OH boy, what a LIFT today to look in here on the very last day of the discussion of this book and see a fabulous new member,

Welcome, Traude!

What a PLEASURE it is to see you here and you can't have failed to notice what a sterling bunch of people you have landed among. I'm very proud of them! Yes, yes, make yourself right at home and pull up a chair to any and all discussions. We're thrilled to welcome you.

I personally like the "Big Picture" you might say hahaahah, I like to click on the Books & Literature clickable at the very top or bottom of the page, because it will show me what posts are new in every discussion, and I may want to look there and see what's up.

In that way, our Boards are a tad different from other message boards, which are normally in outline. Thus you really can have the Eye in the Sky overview if you choose to.

Wonderful, what an omen, a brand new Bookie (and one with such impressive credentials! PLEASE go get all your friends there and bring them here, too!)on our very last day of discussion. Well I don't know what more one could ask!

WHEEEE

Ginny

If there are no further comments, this discusion is now concluded but the Book Club Online continues with its September selection: The Human Stain by Philip Roth.

Even after this discussion is archived, it is still open for comments. Hope to see you in our September discussion!

ginny