Founding Mothers ~ Cokie Roberts ~ 3/06 Export

Welcome to
Founding Mothers
& The Women Who Raised Our Nation
By Cokie Roberts
Questions for Consideration:
        Week 4 (Mar. 22 thru Mar. 28)

Chpt 7: “After 1789: Raising a Nation”

1. How would you compare Washington’s inauguration to modern-day inaugurations?    What were some of the precedents that Martha Washington established in the President’s house?   That Abigail Adams established in the Vice President’s house?   Other ladies of the Cabinet?   How would you describe a typical reception, or levee, held at the President’s?   How did Martha Washington feel about her social role as President’s wife?

2. What did Abigail mean when she wrote as the first Vice President’s wife: "...all distinction you know is unpopular?"

3. How did the Founding Mothers accept Alexander Hamilton’s plan to pay the debts incurred during Revolution by Congress and by the various states?   What were some of the issues? What compromise was made so that Hamilton’s plan was approved?

4. Why did Kitty and Nathanael Greene end up on a Georgia plantation after the war? How did Kitty get Congress to compensate her for Nathanael’s war expenses?   Why didn’t Kitty want to re-marry after her husband died?   What other trials and tribulations did Kitty go through after Nathanael died?

5. How and why was women’s education changing by the end of the 18th century?   What did Catharine Macauley have to say about women’s education?   Judith Sargent Murray?   Annis Stockton?

6. What role did Mary Wollstonecraft play in the rising women’s movement?

7. What was the first state that allowed women to vote?

8. Describe the Hamilton-Reynolds scandal, “one of the most notorious affairs in American history,” and its impact on Hamilton’s political and personal life.

9. How did the French Revolution impact America?

10. How would you describe the very first turnover of the U.S. government when the second President took over?   Why were other countries surprised?

Timeline Links ~ Discussion Schedule

Discussion Starts Here Discussion Leaders: Marni & JoanK

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WELCOME!

Come join us in reading, what Cokie Roberts calls “a book of stories –stories of the women who influenced the Founding Fathers.”

And that is what this is. Roberts, former political commentator for ABC, follows the wives and mothers of our founding fathers from the start of Revolutionary fervor through the trials of the new nation. But she tells the stories of these incredible women as if we were sitting around a table talking about women we knew.

So reserve a seat. I’m going to light a fire in the fireplace, and made a big pot of cocoa. Marni will bring the marshmallows. Come hang out with Martha and Abigail and Kitty (oh, that Kitty!). Meet the woman who “scandalously danced the night away with George Washington” and the one who had him so bamboozled that he swore to protect her while she was spying for the British. Meet two women who changed the South’s economy and one who ran the US postal service. Meet women whose families were torn apart forever by the war. See how these women coped with tragedy and danger, and how they kept the country running while their husbands and sons were liberating it.

"1776" is giving us a fascinating picture of what it was like to fight for freedom. But after reading Founding Mothers, I really feel that I know how it was for women like me living through those times: I feel that these women are my neighbors.

And what neighbors they were! In the midst of situations we can hardly imagine, they didn't just cope, they formed the backbone on which their men had to rely. In the end, Roberts concludes that our founding fathers could not have done what they did without the “Founding Mothers”.

JoanK and I are looking forward with pleasure to discussing Founding Mothers with you. So please sign up here by indicating your interest and find a copy of this wonderfully enjoyable book.

We will begin following our Discussion Schedule on March 1. (Click on "Discussion Schedule" in the heading above on this page if you would like to see the entire schedule.) If you are interested, we can begin a "pre-discussion" on Feb. 1.

Cokie Roberts writes in an easy-to-read informal style and includes lots of little-known fascinating tidbits about famous and infamous women who played a role in the founding of the United States. We'll even read about what some call the biggest scandal of 18th-century America!

So get ahold of your copy of Founding Mothers and join us soon!

Marni

You can count me in. I have always enjoyed Cokie Roberts and know I will like this book. As a matter of fact, my copy arrived yesterday, so I am all ready.

Evelyn

Yeah, Evelyn, WELCOME. We should have lots of fun.

JoanK and Marni, I am so excited!! Like Evelyn I have my book. I am ready to meet all these wonderful women. Did I hear the word scandal tossed about??? By the way I love cocoa and marshmallows.

HATS: WONDERFUL. I was hoping you would come!

If we run out of cocoa, I might try to make "crown soup" (the recipe is in the book).

Evelyn and Hats are joining us!! Huzzah!! And you each have your book already. That's wonderful!

Marni

Joan: Crown soup sounds interesting. Just be careful of your clothing near the fire.

I visited Mystic Seaport in Mystic, Connecticut, where they have a reconstructed colonial village. I learned there that the most common cause of women's deaths in colonial times, after death by childbirth, was death by burning from clothing catching fire while cooking!

How terrible! So be careful making that cocoa!

Marni

My dgt gave me a signed copy of Roberts' book for my birthday in Oct and I have picked it up intermittenly to read. Am about a third of the way thru. Since women's history is an avocation of mine I am familiar w/ many of the women's lives she mentions, but some are new. Looking forward to talking about them w/ all of you wonderful people....jean.

Welcome, Jean. So glad you are joining us. You have such a wealth of knowledge and will add so much to our group!

I'll have the book and be there as a low key participant. I always liked Cokie Roberts as a news reporter/commentator. I heard her briefly this morning on my NPR station right after 7:00 AM.

Marni and Joan, If you want me to I will put a link to this sign-up page on the soc.history,war-american revolution board (see my post on "1775" and "Non-fiction" boards). It would be interesting to test this resource to advertise our programs. Perhaps Books might pick-up a couple of new participants. Let me know if you want me to do it.

Harold's here! Hurray!! I was so hoping you would join us, Harold.

Yes, that would be great if you put out that link. That sounds very interesting. That would be great to get new members, too.

I'll send you an email, also, to make sure you see this.

Thanks!!

Marni

My local PBS was advertising an upcoming "American Experience" show on John and Abigail Adams. They didn't give a date, but watch for it.

Meanwhile, last night thy did one on Eleanor Roosevelt. There was one first lady who really carved her own niche in history!

I have ordered this book. I will lurk here anyway. I hope that I can participate in the discussion as history is my thing. However I cannot promise because I have had such problems concentrating lately.

I like Cokie Roberts and am looking forward to reading the book. It will give a good history read after I finish the current one, The Judgement of Paris which is on art history.

Joan Grimes

JoanG: Welcome! I'm glad to see you here. I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble concentrating. That's so difficult, especially for book lovers, I think. Please lurk away and know that you can join us at any time. We look forward to hearing from you. I enjoyed your comments in the Middlemarch discussion.

Marni

Thanks Marnie.

Hopefully I will not have the trouble reading this book that I did with Middlemarch. I ordered both the print book and the book on cd. So my eyes should not hold me back on this one.

Joan Grimes

This book is not as dense as "Middlemarch". It should be a lot of fun. I'm so glad you're joining us.

My book came today. I am looking forward to reading it and listening to it.

You are right Joan K, it does not seem to be as dense as Middlemarch and I do have the cd to fall back on. The cd for Middlemarch was just too expensive to buy.

Joan Grimes

Well, imagine that....a discussion for a book I bought last year.

I'll be back. (Cokie is one of my favorite people).

Sun

Yay, Sun is joining us. That's great! Welcome! It's nice to see that another person besides myself read the book before and enjoyed it enough to join a discussion in March. I'm currently re-reading the book because it's been awhile. I'm enjoying it as much the second time as I did the first!

Marni

YEAH, SUN. I'll add some cocoa to the pot!

Thanks anyway, Joan...I'll bring my own coffee or Pepsi. <grin>

Sun

Saw Marni's invitation in the Latin Lounge (sounds like a Cuban nightclub, doesn't it

) Admire Cokie and would love to join the discussion.

The Latin Lounge?

Clever idea, Marnie, to promote your book group among the Latin students!

I'm a history buff, too, and would love to join in.
March is an especially good month, because Latin classes will be on break part of the month.
I read the book when it came out in 2004, and will enjoy re-reading here.

p.s. (good Latin, post scriptum) Hi to my classmate and friend, JoanK ~
You might recall I disappeared from Middlemarsh (and Latin) when Florida was clobbered by Wilma.
Hopefully, the hurricane season is over.

The Latin Lounge a Cuban nightclub! Hahaha!!

I love it!!

Welcome, Marylin and Mippy! I'm so glad you saw my notice. I was sort of in a quandry as to whether or not it was appropriate to put a notice there, but then decided it was our lounge. Lots of ideas have been shared there.

Actually, lots of Latin phrases were used by our Founding Fathers - and Founding Mothers, too. James Madison was a Latin scholar. Many articles submitted for circulating pamphlets in the late 18th century were signed off by aliases of Latin names. The Federalist Papers were signed with Latin names.

So, I went for it and used our Latin Lounge. And lucky I did because you're joining us!

Marni

Mippy: It's good to see you're safe and sound after that horrible summer and fall of hurricanes. We were all worried about you for awhile.

Marni

WELCOME, WELCOME MIPPY AND MARYLYN. I remember very clearly, Mippy!! We were all worried about you! Luckily, there shouldn't be any hurricanes in March!

GUESS WHAT'S ON TV TOMORROW NIGHT?

A documentary about John and Abigail Adams! - American Experience, Public TV, 9:00 - 11:00 p.m.

Abigail Adams is one of the important Founding Mothers in our book!

Marni

If you live in Texas or around the Dallas or East Texas area, the American Experience program: The Adams Family - John and Abigail comes on tomorrow, PBS, Ch. 13. from 8 - 10 p.m.

Sun

I am very excited. Can't wait.

Here is a link to the program

John and Abigail Adams

There is so much interesting info in that link, Pat. Thanks!

Our dear JoanK lost her husband last night. He had a massive heart attack. They had been married for 50 years. She is surrounded by her family and they are comforting each other.

Marni

To Joan ~
Sending hugs to you at this difficult time.
Warm thoughts coming to you from everyone, I'm sure,
and all your wonderful words will be awaited, until you return in these Books posts again!
Love from Mippy

Marni, Sun and Pat...thanks for that!! I did see it...just serendipity I guess, and wondered if any of you other 'Founding Mothers' women were watching it! I really enjoyed it...hope you all did too!

I've already priced the book and will be getting it soon. So count me in for the discussion as well. Do enjoy Cokie and have always been interested in the hearths and homefire influences in the founding of our country.

Alliemae

p.s. yes, Mippy and Marni and anyone else studying Latin...isn't it GREAT that we'll 'be on a break'!!

I've really missed all you women I've done book discussions with and am so happy we'll be together again! And I sure look forward to meeting new 'book buddies' too!! That's ALWAYS a plus...

Alliemae

Alliemae: Hurray! I'm so glad to see you'll be joining us. You are always so enthusiastic and add so much to a discussion!

Marni

I'm so sorry to hear the news of JoanK's husband. There really are no words. Thank you, Marni for letting us know.

Joan...my heart goes out to you at this sad and difficult time. You and all your loved ones are in my prayers.

Alliemae

The DVD of John and Abigail Adams is apparently out.
I put it in my movie rental line-up, since I forgot to tape it on PBS;
it should come in another week or so. I'll let you know how it was, and the details of the actors, etc.
Anyone who missed it on TV can rent it, if you have a DVD player.

That's good news, Mippy. It seems a number of people had trouble taping it and missed it. I did watch the 2-hour program and absolutely loved it. It covers the years of John and Abigail's relationship and beyond. You can see through exerpts from letters and from interviews with historians and authors, such as David McCullough, a good picture of the personalities of each, their relationships with each other and with others, trials and tribulations, good times, and especially the wonderful love affair between John and Abigail.

Marni

I look forward to Cokie's analysis of the news each Monday on NPR. She is so sane and sensible. Looking forward to reading this one. Is there any chance she will be looking in?

Hi, Mrs. Sherlock! Are you joining our discussion of Founding Mothers? That would be wonderful. Currently, we have no plans to contact Cokie Roberts.

I have never listened to her radio program. So, I just looked up NPR (National Public Radio) on the web. Below is a link. If you want to listen to NPR on your radio, click on the "call letters Find" button in the upper left-hand corner. It brings you to a screen where you can select your locale and find the radio station of your area where you can listen to NPR. Apparently, some programs are broadcast live on the web. Cokie Roberts' program is called "Political Analysis" and is on the "Morning Edition." However, I can't seem to find the time she is on. Can you give us the time, Mrs. Sherlock? Thanks!

http://www.npr.org/

Marni

Coretta Scott King died this morning

Hats, I saw that this morning as well and suddenly felt a terrible sadness not only that another great figure in American history has left us but for the personal and horrific tragedy she experienced when Dr. King was assassinated. How can anyone bear a loved one being murdered. May she rest in peace.

Alliemae

Hi Alliemae,

You always say the right words. It is sad.

One thing about getting older is the droping away of the people we have "known", either in person or through the media. We have lost another link with one of the most profound eras in our history. Ironic that Rosa Parks also died recently (2005). We are the poorer for this loss.

Mrs. Sherlock, I agree.

Are we using HB or PB or doesn't it matter? My book store only has the PB in stock.

If anyone knows the difference also, as to illustrations, etc. would you pls tell me.

Thanks much,

Alliemae

Alliemae - I ordered a hb used copy thru Amazon.com on 1/21 and it arrived here today (CA to OH) so it was only a 10 day turnaround. Cost was only $7.99 including shipping and you can't even tell this is a used book. Might consider this option if we need a hb. Marylin

Thanks, Marylin!! I think I'll look into that!!

Alliemae

Marylin: You bought the HB for a great price.

I have the paperback myself. It shouldn't matter whether we have HB or PB. The text should be the same; just the page numbers will be different and that shouldn't present a problem.

As far as illustrations.... in the PB, there is a black and white portrait of a founding mother on the first page of each chapter. That's it. No other illustrations. I haven't seen the HB so don't know if there are any additional illustrations in it. I didn't need anything else while reading the book - like in the book 1776 we needed better maps than were provided in the book. That's not the case with Founding Mothers.

Good luck finding books, everyone!!

Marni

I'll bet if you sent an e-mail to NPR and told her when we were going to discuss the book and how it works that she might "drop in." Her sister Barbara Boggs Sigmund was mayor of Princeton, NJ when we were starting the Alice Paul Institute and was very supportive of the institute. They are/were (Barbara died of cancer about 15 yrs ago) gracious southern women and I think Cokie might be curious about the discussion......jean

Cokie's analysis was broadcast around 7 am Monday's on KQED-FM, the San Francisco NPR station. Since I retired in November and moved to Salem, Oregon, I haven't heard her. Maybe my sleeping-in has prevented me from establishing her schedule on Oregon Public Broadcasting's Portland station. I do know that KQED-FM has computer "broadcasts" and the programs maybe be downloaded for pod-cast. I may submit to the Ipodization of America: I miss Michael Krasny's Forum, even though its emphasis is California and San Francisco, he also has featured author interviews (he is an English porfessor at SF State U). Whew! That sentence really got away from me, didn't it?

Marni - re post 53: looks like the illustrations in the HB are the same as in your PB, so there should be no differences except page numbers.

Thanks everybody for the book info! Looks like PB is good so they are holding one at the book store around the corner for me...can't wait for our discussion!!

Alliemae

Mrs. Sherlock and Jean: Thank you for your suggestion about contacting Cokie Roberts. I've been considering the idea.

There is so much meat in the book itself and we will be covering a huge amount in just one month discussing Founding Mothers. It would be very ambitious of us to try to cover the book plus a discussion with the author, as well, in that time frame. So, we'll carry on with plans to discuss the book during the month of March without attempting to include the author then.

There's always a certain amount of planning, coordination, and assistance required in arranging for an author's participation. Perhaps it will be possible for someone to coordinate a discussion with the author for when we have finished the book. Meanwhile, you might be interested in documenting questions for the author while you are reading the book.

Marni

Mrs. Sherlock: Do you have an iPod? Have you downloaded a podcast yet? My husband gave me an iPod for Christmas and I have been gleefully loading soundtracks into it for the past month, buying supplemental gadgets for it, and playing it in my Jeep. But, I haven't used it yet for podcasts.

Marni

Marylin: Thanks for letting us know about the HB. We should have no problem participating no matter which copy we get our hands on. It should be easy for everyone to get ahold of a copy.

Marni

Marnie0308: No, but I'm getting one soon. I checked the NPR site and there was Cokie Roberts' Monday commentary, referencing the State-of-the-Union speech. If I had my Ipod, I could have downloaded it and listed to it at my convenience. If no one gives me one for my birthday next week, I'll give it to myself. Where do you find the type of music you like? I was afraid it would all be geared to people in their teens and twenties.

Mrs. Sherlock, I don't have an iPod, but it was my understanding that you had to program your own music in them - so you got only what you put in there. Am I right???? (to those who know)

Yes, you have to load music into the iPod and I've found that it's quite time consuming! Luckily, I had burned many of my favorite soundtracks onto MP3 CD's already. It was easy to transfer that music into my iPod. But eventually I had to switch from automatic transfer to manual transfer and that takes time.

It boiled down to having to read the manual! It was quite clear there, though. I've always hated reading manuals. But sometimes there's no way around it!

The big advantage for me of having an iPod is having all my mobile music in one place. It's a lot easier than lugging CD's around and changing them when they're finished playing. I play music while exercising, driving, walking, a lot.

Good luck with yours, Mrs. Sherlock!

Hi Marni and JoanK,

Until I looked at the reading schedule, I didn't realize that recipes are in the back of the book. I hope there are photographs in the book too. I have the hardback version. I just haven't made time to sit down and enjoy the book yet.

I think these recipes are written for ladies living during that time. One tells how to dress a calves head.

Hats, you're right. The recipes are those used in colonial times. Dressing "a calves head..." I wonder if anyone need's to do this today? Perhaps?

My PB copy has no photos except for one of the author right on the first page as you open the book. The other pictures are painted portraits because paintings/drawings were the "photos" of that era. Of course, I suppose you could say there are photos of the paintings!

Marni

I also did not open my book till this morning even though I had bought it on Friday!!

When I saw the recipe for dressing 'a calves head' and Hat's comment and Marni's reply I was reminded of something that happened a couple of decades ago.

My best friend was engaged to a Greek fellow and wanted to surprise him for Greek Easter dinner (or was it Christmas...long time ago!). His best friend told my friend that lamb's head was traditional.

She enlisted me to go to the Italian Market to find one. We got the poor head home and didn't have the slightest inkling of what to do first in its preparation.

We burst into laughter at the same time when we said in unison, "I guess we could start by brushing its teeth!"

Yes, the teeth are still in the head!! Finally we just got the friend to come over and get the head ready and her fiance was very impressed!!

Just a bit of silly trivia but I'm laughing about it all over again!

Alliemae

Alliemae, you've got me laughing outloud.

Teeth still in the head???

Thanks for the fun.

I am so glad you are joining the "My Name is Red" discussion. I kept thinking about you. I could remember you sharing in the Jesus and Harvard discussion.

The teeth still there. Yum!

Reminds me of a party where they roasted a whole pig on a spit. It was definitely the entire pig, including eyes and all. One fellow was dared to eat one of the eyes after the pig was roasted. He accepted the bet and very dramatically popped an eye into his mouth. Said it was delicious and ate the other eye.

I just remembered that I bought a cookbook of colonial cooking many years ago - maybe at Mystic Seaport or at Sturbridge Village. I'm going to have to go hunt for it.

Marni

Alliemae - you have to go on with that story. How was the head readied? Was it actually prepared with teeth, or did you do extractions before you baked/boiled/roasted it? And again, how much meat would be on a head? Served whole or just the prepared meat. I've got to travel more.....

I think Cokie Roberts Acknowledgments and Author's notes are very interesting reading. After agreeing to write "Founding Mothers," Cokie Roberts was diagnosed with breast cancer. This book was published in 2004. How is Cokie Roberts doing now?

Waiting for my book; so impatient...

First of all, Hats I didn't know about Cokie Roberts diagnosis and I'm hoping it was an early detection. They are doing wonderful work now with early detection breast cancer with a good survival rate.

Also Hats, I'm thrilled that we will be in TWO book discussions together next month--and about being in either the 'Moms' or the 'Red' group with any of you I've been in discussions with before.

I also MUST say that in each and every book discussion I've been in I've LOVED meeting BRAND NEW (to me!) group chums also! More minds, more learning and more FUN!!

About the lamb's (or 'calves') head: YES! the teeth are still in! But we didn't have to brush them.

Marylin, you just soak the entire head in salt and vinegar water for just 10 minutes or so (to clean but not to affect the flesh) and then bake in the oven with salt and pepper and a sprig of fresh oregano and a bay leaf at the bottom of pan in just about 1/2 inch of water. It is served whole on a garnished platter at the beginning of the meal.

Marni--here the eyes are not only a delicacy but a status symbol and go the the elder male at table, usually grandfather, father, eldest son or male relative.

I will say this about that. For once I am happy that this custom does NOT observe equal rights for women!!

Alliemae

The eyes a delicacy. For goodness sake!

--------------------------------------

I found my colonial cookbook! It's called The Old Farmer's Almanac Colonial Cookbook. ISBN 0-911658-81-5. I don't remember where I bought it, though. They're from early editions of The Old Farmer's Almanac. At least one of the recipe's was first published in another book in 1662. In the "Foreward" it says the Old Farmer's Almanac was first published in 1792. The recipes have been adjusted for today's cooking methods.

Since JoanK was preparing some hot cocoa for us to drink as we chatted around the fireplace, I thought I'd make something to munch on - something they used to eat in colonial times. Maybe we all could bring some munchies from old recipes. Here's one that sounds good....

WINCHESTER NUT BREAD

3/4 cup water

1/2 cup light brown sugar

1/2 cup molasses

3/4 cup milk

1 cup white flour

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

2 1/2 teaspoons baking powder

1 teaspoon soda

2 cups whole wheat flour

3/4 cups nut - walnuts or pecans

Dissolve the sugar in the water and add the molasses and milk. Sift the flour, salt, baking powder, and soda together and add the whole wheat flour unsifted. Mix all together, add the nuts, and bake in a greased loaf pan in a slow oven (275 degrees) for 2 hours. Wonderful served warm or toasted with butter.

Marni

Oh, good! ~
Here's a chance to talk about baking in colonial times!
In summer, I'm a docent at an 1840's captain's house in Yarmouthport, MA,
but the kitchen, on the lower level, has been dated back to the mid-1700's.
We don't bake, but we explain how it was done.

The oven is brick, next to a fireplace; the oven's interior space is dome-shaped, and called a bee-hive oven.
In size, it resembles a restaurant pizza oven. The door is iron.
How did they heat it? By putting in a shovel-full of red-hot logs from the adjacent fireplace, closing the door, then guessing the temperature from experience!
The bread or cake was put into the hot oven with a paddle, like a pizza paddle (not something most homes
have handy today). Then the colonial woman knew when to take it out!
Yes, aren't we glad to have electric or gas ovens!

Please do comment, and also do contact me if you are on Cape Cod in the summer!

Mippy! How fun! You're just the kind of person I love to meet when I tour old houses, one of my favorite things! You must know so much about what occurred in old kitchens.

Do you have any photos of the kitchen where you are a docent? I can hunt for something similar on the web if you don't.

It's absolutely amazing what women used to do in the kitchen! And here I am with my new automatic oven thermometer so you can get an instant readout of a roast's temp. from outside the oven!

Marni

Hi, Marnie, what fun to be posting at the same time!
Sorry, no photos; we don't wear costumes, either, for some reason or other. I've asked the director, but cannot find out why. It would be fun to wear one of those "mop" caps.

Besides baking, we discuss what kinds of food were popular in New England in colonial times.
David H. Fischer's Four British Folkways in America (1991) is a wonderful reference book for anyone interested in the details of how life was lived, in all regions of colonial America.

The docents also discuss types of lighting (beeswax candles were too expensive for everyday!), soap making, and how to spin with both wool and flax using different types of spinning wheels.

here's a link, but not a picture, of something similar: Colonial Kitchens

Hi, Mippy! I wonder why beeswax candles were expensive? What did they usually make candles out of?

Have you ever been to the Yankee Candle Co. in South Deerfield, Mass? That's a fun place! They have a building with an old fireplace and they demonstrate how to make candles - different kinds including beeswax candles. I've never actually watched the demonstration.

I'm going to hunt for some photos.

Marni

I was planning to make cocoa. I didn't want to violate the spirit of the times, so I asked my SIL (who has written about the history of chocolate -- "Chocolate on the Brain" by Kevin and Nancy Mills) if the colonists would have had cocoa at that time. He wasn't sure: the upper-class English had it. A colonist would have had to be wealthy to have it.

You will see in Cokie's book that the Colonists, following the British, were addicted to tea. After the Boston tea party, they boycotted tea. Some drank "Liberty tea" made from roots and flowers -- sounds like the herb teas we get today. Others drank coffee, which they considered a poor substitute.

So we'll have to decide what to drink. Let me know. But definitely with Marni's munchies.

CR's breast cancer was widely publicized. I seem to remember that her operation was televised. I may be wrong on this.

Here's a site that has very interesting info about a colonial kitchen in New Hope, PA. But the photos are small and dark. People bathed in the kitchen. I love this line: "Supposedly the tradition of June weddings arose because June was the earliest month that you could comfortably bathe, an event that would be desirable prior to the wedding."

http://www.parrymansion.org/colonialkitchen.htm

I read this: "A colonial brick oven was generally built into one side of the big fireplace, with an opening into the chimney to release smoke. It was kept shut with a heavy iron door. About once a week, a fire was built inside it, made of special dry wood called oven wood. This fire was kept burning for two to four hours until the bricks were hot.

The baker gauged the temperature of the oven by holding her arm at the opening; you could always tell a baker because she was missing hair on her arm (it had been singed off by the heat). When the oven was hot enough, the coals and ashes were brushed out, and the oven was filled with pies, bread, and other baked goods like custards. The oven was as big inside as a double bed, and thirty or forty small loaves of bread could be baked at once.

After the food was baked, it was removed from the oven with a long-handled wooden spatula called a peel or slice. Modern pizza bakers use a similar tool for removing pizzas from their large ovens."

http://www.netaxs.com/katz/s3-1.htm#16

Joan!!!! I'm so glad you're here!!!!!

Not sure this would be a good snack, but doesn't it sound delicious? I would require exact measurements, though, for the cream - teaspoon? tablespoon? - and the rosewater (in cooking?), nutmeg and sugar. But I wonder if this is how some cooking reputations were made - you experimented until you got a delicious dish, and only you knew the exact measurements. I copied this from the Williamsburg site when I went looking for recipes from the Colonial era.

Apple Tansey To make an Apple Tansey, Take three pippins, slice them round in thin slices, and fry them with butter; then beat four eggs, with six spoonfuls of cream, a little rosewater, nutmeg, and sugar; stir them together, and pour it over the apples; let it fry a little, and turn it with a pye-plate. Garnish with lemon and sugar strew'd over it.

Thanks, Alliemae for the instructions on baking the head, but think I'll pass.

Mippy - you will have so much information in this discussion!

JoanK - I could go for some herbal tea with the munchies.

Marylin: That sounds so interesting! I don't know what a pippin is - or a tansey. The rosewater sounds lovely.

Joan: I know! Let's say you are related to a ship captain who is acting as a privateer during the Revolution. He recently captured the HMS Bluebird which was heading back to England from Central America carrying some expensive specialties, including a large container of chocolate! The captain gave you some and you have saved it for a very special occasion. And here it is! Your friends are gathering to discuss a wonderful book!

Marni

Oh, JoanK!
Welcome Back!

Great link, Marnie!

Yummm .... Herbal tea with a slice of pie sounds like a good New England afternoon snack!

Especially in New England, women baked pies of all types: main dish pies, like our pot pies, with duck meat or game meat, if domestic-type animals were not plentiful;
fruit pies: berries, pumpkin or whatever was in season; in winter, there were apples and nuts stored in the cold; at all times of year, if you had reliable chickens and a cow, there would be custard pies.
D. H. Fischer wrote that oven-baked main dishes and desert pies were more popular in New England than in the Southern colonies. In the South, fried deserts or pan-fried cakes were more frequently chosen.

Doesn't all this make you hungry?

Thank you JoanK for answering my question. I did not know about Cokie's diagnosis until reading the Acknowledgments in the book. I thought it took a great deal of courage for her to continue on with such a huge project like "Founding Mothers" and to finish it. I commend all women with cancer because my mother died of cancer.

I did not mean to bring a sad note to the discussion. I just wanted to applaud Cokie Roberts tremendous and wonderful attitude.

Have fun in the colonial kitchen. I have enjoyed each and everyone of the posts. The discussion is off to a hot and yummy discussion. Of course, that is not unusual with JoanK and Marni.

If you don't mind telling us.

My mother used to make soap, boy did that stink! She saved the lard from her cooking and from butchering and added lye to the mixture.

When my oldest sister lived on their first farm, we took our baths in a wash tub in the kitchen. Not only because it was easiest to get the water - she had a pump in her kitchen - but because in the cooler months that's where the heat was - she had a cook stove that burned wood or coal- to heat the water and the body! So, that business of waiting til June doesn't fly

Sounds like an alibi to me.LOL......jean

Hats: I'm sorry about your mom. I was so shocked to read that about Cokie Roberts, too. And she carried on anyway and wrote a fabulous book. Sounds like she has inherited the strength of her colonial forebears!

Marylin: What kind of herbs do you suppose women used for herbal tea in colonial times?

Mippy: My mouth is watering as I think about all those pies! Do you happen to have a recipe for us of a particularly delicious-sounding one?

It's interesting to read about drinks that different people got "hooked" on - like the British and colonial Americans and their tea. I read that many Europeans became addicted to hot chocolate and to coffee when the Spanish (and later the Dutch, French, and English) began importing it from South and Central America in the 16th century.

I am totally addicted to chocolate and was interested in hearing how it became so popular in Europe. Very early on, chocolate, coffee, and tea were traded on the commodities market in the Netherlands where the stock market was invented.

For other chocolate addicts, here's a brief history of chocolate:

http://www.masterstech-home.com/The_Kitchen/Articles/choco-history.html

Marni

Jean: Lard and lye!! Good heavens! I guess I had heard about animal fat in soap, but not lye. I think I read that sometimes ash is used, but I may be thinking of something else.

What an interesting childhood you must have had. Where did your mother live that she butchered herself and made soap? And where was your sister's farm?

Marni

I remember reading that lower-class Europeans had reasonably good teeth before the Spanish bro't them sugar and chocolate. They just didn't have much sugar in their diet of grains and vegatables. So, the Spanish bro't sugar, chocolate, tobacco and coffee from the western hemisphere to the Europeans and took diseases from Europe to the Americas.....h -h-h-u-u-u-m-m, maybe we SHOULDN'T celebrate Columbus Day!!.....jean

I grew up in south central Pennsylvania.My parents were farmers and lower middle-class.

(My mother had earned a college degree in 1923. I was always very proud of her for that. She was able to do that because she lived near Shippensburg were there was a "Normal Shcool," now Shippensburg University and from which about a dozen of our family members have now graduated. She was a school teacher until she became a farmer's wife.)

My oldest sister (she is 15 yrs older than I am) and her husband were dairy farmers until they retired in the 90's. I loved butcher days when I was young, I got to take off school and work w/ the women, cleaning "skins" (intestines) and making sausage and the conversation and the smells of the meats cooking were wonderful.

My mother also made her own ketchup when i was very young. Another stinky business w/ the tomatoes and vinegar. She always had a huge garden, which I hated working in.LOL And she did all kinds of canning, and later freezing, vegatables, fruits and meats.

Her longest lived skilled output were quilts. Each of her children and grand-children have at least one of them. She never would have considered herself an artist, but she certainly was. Her early quilts were true patchwork quilts, using feed sacks and pieces of left-over fabrics from her sewing clothes for us. But later in her life she put together patterns, colors and beautiful stitches of her own design......my oldest sister did many of the same crafts and cooking.

I am a knitter (taught by Mom) and crocheter (taught myself), but i don't do any of those other handicrafts that they did, but all of us were/are readers!!!....jean

Marnie I think pippins are a variety of apple? And regarding herbs for teas:

In Colonial America, when tea drinking became unpatriotic, conventional tea leaves were replaced with sassafras bark, chamomile flowers, spearmint leaves, lemon balm leaves, raspberry leaves, loosestrife, goldenrod, dittany, blackberry leaves sage and many others. Rye and chestnuts, ground and roasted, or roasted crushed barley were made in to coffee substitutes. (From Chadds Ford Historical Society site.)

Jean - We live in the house on the farm where my husband was born. He remembers butchering day every year where several neighboring families would gather and each family member would have their job. He also remembers his mother making soap with lard and lye. Now since marrying (48 yrs. ago today) and moving from the city to the farm I have always had a large produce garden and make homemade catsup, salsa, relishes. And, yes, it is smelly.

I have enjoyed reading all your posts. I love to cook, and all the pies sound mouthwatering. I don't think I'll be cooking a "calves head" anytime soon tho.

Thanks, Marni, for the Winchester Nut Bread recipe. I printed it out and am going to try it.

I saw Cokie Roberts on TV Sunday morning. She looks tired and like someone who has been ill, so I hope she is recovered and is all right.

I'm looking forward to this discussion and learning more about the women in Colonial America.

Evelyn

We made soap in 7th grade in science class. Made me appreciate the labor involved with producing the simplest things in life, let alone the biggies like slaughtering a pig, milking a cow. My folks had chickens when I was little and I've seen my mother kill one and then we ate it. Labor to produce food is intense! This was in the south. Maybe the reason that things are fried in the south has to do with the ambient heat and the need to kill any bacteria in food?

Marylin: Thanks for finding that out about the pippins. I would never have guessed apples. I wonder if the word "pips" has anything to do with pippins. And thanks so much for the types of herbs used in making tea. They sound wonderful. It's interesting how herbal teas have become so popular recently. I've seen some of the herbs you mentioned in tea packages in the store. The sassafras sounds really good.

Remember a number of years back - in the 70's, I think - coffee got really expensive and people were buying chickory to drink instead? It wasn't the same at all. I guess today, though, chickory plus coffee is a southern hot drink. They had it when we visited New Orleans two years ago.

Evelyn: Let us know how the nut bread comes out. I hope it's good!

You gals who have lived on farms and who have seen or helped with butchering or soap making....what an experience! And what a lot of work! Mrs. Sherlock really said it: "...Made me appreciate the labor involved with producing the simplest things in life..." It makes me feel very lazy. Sometimes I think it's such a pain to go to the grocery store to shop for food!

There was a very good novel out a few years back about a young woman who lived in the mountains in about 1900 - in the south, I think - and she got married. I can't think of the title of the book. She and her husband ended up moving in with a man where she did the housework to make money. I remember there was a spring house where she stored butter and milk. At one point she had to slaughter a pig and it was a huge huge difficult task with many components. Does this sound familiar to anyone? It was a wonderful novel but my brain is not functioning very well right now. I think there was a kitchen fire in the novel, too.??

Marni

Guess what was in the paper this morning? (Hartford Courant) An article plus picture about the 3rd annual chocolate festival in Historic Deerfield, Mass. on Sat. In the photo, a woman dressed in colonial clothing demonstrates the colonial method of preparing chocolate for beverages!

Well, I'm off to New London/Groton to visit my dad who is in a nursing home. He fell and broke 3 ribs. Be back tonight.

Marni

Marni, I am very sorry to hear about your dad. My thoughts and prayers are with you and family.

Marni, hope you Dad is not in much pain, broken ribs can be very painful.

My Dad used to make sassafras tea and wine - it was for a tonic, of course, my Mother's family were strict Calvanist Presbyterians, NO alcohol in their house, except for medicinal purposes

...jean

Oh, Marni!! I hope your father will be all right. Give him our best. I know he is the one who sparked your interest in the revolution, and we are all benefiting from it.

So cocoa is ok, but we'll also want some herb tea. I like the idea of a privateer relative who brings us cocoa. He would have to be brighter than the privateer who captured the first shipload of cocoa headed for England. That privateer sank the cocoa with the ship because he thought it was sheep droppings ("Chocolate on the Brain").

Cocoa has a history of being connected with insurrections. One of the English kings had all the cocoa shops in London closed because they were centers where men would meet and talk politics. He thought they were planning a revolution. That was earlier, but we'll be right in historical tradition.

Good for Cokie! I found when I had breast cancer six years ago that it was psychologically very important to keep on with my "projects" (in my case teaching for the literacy council) as best I could. While I was being shoved around like a piece of meat, it reminded me that I was still me.

I'm back from the CT shore. My dad is feeling better. Thank you so much for the kind remarks.

JoanK: You have been through so much! And here you are making us feel good and telling us such interesting stories like the ship captain sinking the cargo of chocolate. That was really something!

Well, I am very much looking forward to our herbal tea and chocolate. Maybe our book and our drinks will put us in a rebellious spirit! And....my mouth is still watering thinking about the pies that Mippy mentioned.

MIPPY: I found a nice meat pie recipe in my Old Farmer's Almanac Colonial Cooking cookbook. I'll type it below. Can you tell us some more about colonial kitchens and how women might have cooked this meat pie? What kinds of dishes and pans did they use? Where did they store their herbs, spices, meats, butter, etc.? How did they wash the dirty dishes? Where did they eat?

-----------------------------------------------

Steak and Kidney Pie

3 lbs lean beefsteak (top round is good), cut into 1-inch cubes

2 pair veal kidneys, cut to similar size (or 3 pair lamb kidneys)

3/4 cup flour

1 1/2 teaspoons salt

black pepper

butter or bacon fat

12 small onions

6 carrots scrubbed and cut into large pieces

1/2 lb mushrooms

2 crushed cloves garlic

1 cup beef stock

a glass of good red wine

herbs

--------------------------------

Dredge the pieces of meat in seasoned flour and brown them well in fat in a large frying pan over a hot flame. At the same time cook the onions and carrots in enough salted water to cover. As the pieces of meat are done, put them into a 3-quart deep pie dish alternately with the onions and carrots. Slice the mushrooms into the frying pan with more butter, cook briefly, and add to the casserole. To the juices in the pan add the remaining flour and garlic. Gradually pour in the water in which the vegetables were cooked, plus the beef stock and red wine, stirring to make a smooth sauce.

Season the sauce with herbs as available, fresh or dried parsley or chervil, marjoram or thyme, chives or green onions. Taste the sauce. If you wish, add more salt or herbs to taste. Pour the same over the meat and vegetables. Make a pie crust. Put it over the pie and flute the edges. Slash it in several places to let steam escape. Glaze the crust if you wish by brushing egg yolk over the surface and ornament it with pastry cut-outs. Put the pie in a 350 degree oven 50 or 60 minutes before you are ready to eat it.

Serves 6-8

Marnie ~ Interesting recipe ... maybe someone other than me will try it. I've stopped cooking red meat at home, the last few years; my husband might order some at a restaurant, but as we get older, we eat differently.

On colonial kitchens, I'm not an expert, but could give some examples from the kitchen where I'm a summer docent. The pie pans would be hammered tin or other light metal. The table dishes might have been wooden, not china, in a middle-class family, and they would eat at a table right near the kitchen fireplace. The house I'm familiar with did not have a staff of servants, who might have carried cooked food to a dining room, where a more affluent family would eat.

Carrots, onions, as well as potatoes, would be favorite kitchen garden crops, especially good to
store in the root cellar in the winter. Apples store well, too.

Herbs, tied in bunches were hung to dry along the beams in the kitchen ceiling. I think New England women seasoned their food quite nicely, from the variety of herbs apparently grown.

Butter and cheese would be stored in a cold-house near a creek. Or perhaps just kept in a cupboard, in winter. I'm pretty sure spoiled food was not as great a worry then as now.

How did they wash the dirty dishes? In a large tin washing pan, with water warmed up at the fireplace. Soap was harsh and homemade, as others have posted above. (Lye is the caustic solution made when water is poured through fireplace ashes.) There were fewer dishes to wash than we typically have, especially if meals were one-dish pies or stews. And drinking cups were metal or perhaps pottery, if you could afford them.

Life was not easy in colonial times.

The steak and kidney pie sounds really good/ am going to have to give it a try/

and Marypage got them talking about hard cider because JA when at Harvand said they had a pint everyday for breakfast. My understanding is that Ben Franklin also liked to have a pint of hard cider everyday. There was a heck of a lot more consumption of alcohol then than now. Of course, sometimes it made up for the putrid water that was available.

Recipe for hard cider, a la Marypage: buy a bottle of unpasteurized cider, probably from a farm stand, set it by your back door, watching it carefully when it starts to fizz, have yourself a nip with some ginger cookies. She says it's delicious at that time - if you like it "harder" let it sit longer. My brother makes cider, I'm going to try it......jean

Mabel, yummy! I am going to try MaryPage's recipe for cider too. I am reading the archived "Red Tent" discussion. Those archives really come in handy.

Lakota Wolf - Welcome! We're glad you've joined us. Come have some hot chocolate or some herbal tea while we try out some interesting recipes and perhaps a nip or two of hard cider.

Mippy: Thanks for the info about the colonial kitchen and life. I'm so glad you know so much about it. Sometimes I feel so lucky I live today with our modern conveniences and freedoms and education and jobs for women in our country. It really hasn't been that long, though, in the scheme of things.

Jean: I have accidentally made hard cider. I'm not sure I'm too crazy about the taste. It IS fizzy. But, I supose after you've had one, it doesn't really matter!

It certainly does seem like older cultures drank a lot of spirits - the Romans and their wine, the British navy and their grog, the colonists and their hard cider....Officers of the Revolution passed out extra rations of rum when their men performed well. I remember in "Master and Commander" the surgeon advised Captain Aubrey that there would be fewer accidents aboard ship if he stopped doling out the grog. The captain said if he did that, he'd have a mutiny on his hands. I bet you're right - that it was safer and better tasting than the putrid water available.

It seems that no matter where people are, they are inventing and manufacturing some sort of alcoholic drink. There is always some sort of grain or plant that will ferment into something that people can drink for a high. Where there's a will, there's a way!

Marni

Funny you should be talking about the John Adams biography, and his drinking hard cider, I have just started reading it, and had just read that passage before I logged on. The book also said that he liked a glass of madiera. I've never had madiera, but I always associated it with handlebar mustaches and evil villains enticing young girls to their doom. Maybe because of the old Flanders and Swann song:

HAVE SOME MADIERA MY DEAR

JoanK: I've never heard that one. What a riot! Scandalous!!

Hi JoanK and Marni,

I love the name Madiera. What color is it? I am thinking red like a pretty strawberry. The name seems so romantic. May I have a goblet of Madiera?

I know servants should not drink. If you won't tell, I won't tell.

Is the song referred to, "Have some Madeira, my dear"?

The word "madeira" means "wood" in Portugese.

I found some interesting info about madeira in colonial America:

"Madeira [the island], situated as it is, in the Atlantic shipping lanes, was a natural port of call for any ships traveling across to the Americas or south around Africa to Asia. Thus, almost all friendly ships dropped anchor in the harbor of Funchal, the regional capital of Madeira. This was good fortune for Madeira and for its wine trade. Ships making the stop invariably loaded wine for the voyage. What cinched the deal was a piece of British legislation in 1665 forbidding the export of European wines to British colonies except through British ports and in British ships. The one exception was Madeira. As a result, it became a regular supplier to all American ships heading west.

The Boston Madeira Party?? America grew fond of the wine from Madeira and became one of its biggest customers, buying nearly a quarter of all the wine produced here. By the 18th century, the British American and West Indian colonies, drank it as their only wine. Not only was it the preferred wine, but it was so highly thought of that five years before the Boston Tea Party, it caused a riot on the docks of that city when British customs officials tried to impose duties on a shipment of Madeira. It was used to toast the Declaration of Independence in 1776, and in 1789, at the inauguration of George Washington.

News of its popularity in America from the troops returning from the American War of Independence created connoisseurs of Madeira in Britain as well. Ladies were known to use it to perfume their handkerchieves. Officers in the service of their country demanded 15 bottles of it a month. It was said to have tonic value as well. It was so recommended for sick or overworked people, that it was nicknamed the 'milk of the old.'"

Here's more on the history of madeira wine. (Keep scrolling down so you don't miss any.):

http://www.intowine.com/madeira.html

CHEERS!!

Marni

Marni, thank you. Wow! This is interesting.

Happy Valentine's Day, everyone! YAY, CHOCOLATE!!! I'm jumping the gun a bit, but I can't wait to start in on some chocolate truffles (yummie) and now I think I'll follow that up with a nice glass of madeira!

Marni

Hear i am, a student/ teacher/ professor of history for 44 years and i NEVER heard of the Boston madiera riots!! What a sad commentary on American education........LOL......jean

Happy Valentine's Day!! I will have glass of madeira and some chocolates most definitely.

Who would have thought when signing up for a discussion of women during time of the shaping this country, that one would have an excuse to sample (in the interest of history) a bit of madeira. Ohhhh, history discussion is good! Thanks for the interesting site, Marnie. Happy Valentine's Day to all.

Jean: While sipping my madeira (hiccup), I found a bit more detail about the Madeira crisis in Boston:

"On May 9, 1768 customs officials in Boston checked the report of John Hancock's ship, the Liberty, which had just returned from a voyage to Madeira. The ship captain, Nathaniel Barnard, reported to the customs house that he had brought in 25 pipes of wine (about 3150 gallons). The customs commissioners were immediately suspicious for this volume fell far below the capacity of the ship. They found a tidesman who had secretly helped unload the bulk of the Liberty's cargo under cover of night and would testify to that effect. The officials ordered that the Liberty be seized for smuggling, and it was towed out to the British warship Romney. This action set off a riot led by the Sons of Liberty. Hancock lost his vessel in admiralty proceedings, but attempts by the customs commissioners to secure further damages proved unsuccessful in the face of violent threats from mobs. The royal government in Massachusetts under Governor Francis Bernard and his Lieutenant, Thomas Hutchinson, discovered that extra-legal authority could not be ignored. It felt helpless to prosecute participants in mob actions, for the Boston Town Meeting chose jurors. Needing to show force, Bernard asked for British regulars to be brought in to maintain law and order. Without sufficient consideration of what the introduction of British troops into Boston would mean and how they might be withdrawn, if that became necessary, the British government acceded to Bernard's wishes."

http://www.boston-tea-party.org/case-study.html

Marni

I read something interesting in this morning's paper - A new spreading trend, which may be on the way to becoming a national trend, is chocolate lounges, designed particularly for women, as an alternative to coffee bars.

Marni

Help, chocolate overload!

Happy Valentine's Day to all!

and the riots that followed the incident. I just forgot about the madiera!! Maybe I was imbibing at the time.....Hooray for the American education system!!..jean

We definitely have to have madiera and chocolate. I wonder if chocolate overload counteracts too much madiera? Or is it a double whammy? Right now I'm working on the chocolate overload part.

Amazing! Madiera riots. Who knew?

Once I made a 'tourist' trip around my home city of Philadelhia and by the time our guide finished telling us, about a zillion times, about how well loved madeira was during colonial times, especially when he took us through Bishop White's home with talk about the men and their after dinner cigars and madeira, I couldn't wait to go around the corner to the City Tavern (right in Olde Towne) to have a madeira myself--and found I enjoyed it even more than port! It seems to go very well with the color and touch and smell of the rich dark furniture in some of those old homes. (I DID NOT HAVE A CIGAR!) :^ )

I'm so glad I'm in Philadelphia while we are reading this book! And I will gladly contribute madeira and thin and crispy vanilla drop cookies dipped in chocolate for our get-togethers!

Alliemae

Those cookies sound yummy, Alliemae!

Just once I took a puff of a cigar. OMG! I thought I was going to die. It was the worst thing. The men can go off to drink madeira and smoke their nasty cigars if they wish. The ladies can sip madeira, eat delicious cookies, and have a wonderful chat in front of the fire. The dishes are done. Time to relax.

Hey, I just thought - maybe we ladies could do a bit of quilting or sewing or other handwork while we chat and enjoy ourselves. The men are welcome to join us if they wish!

(I recently came into the possession of some of my Welsh grandmother's handsewn linens. They are the loveliest things, with the most beautiful, delicate designs embroidered. She supported the family by sewing and tailoring during the Great Depression after my grandfather's business went under. She sewed my grandfather a tuxedo tail suit for a wedding when my dad was about 5 years old. So she made the same tuxedo tail suit, pint-sized, for my dad, too. I have it today. The work is amazing.)

Marni

Marni,

I hope Harold will come to the discussion. He always brings such interesting historical information. I bet he would enjoy some Madeira.

I love handwork. I bit of quilting or embroidery always makes ladies open up and really talk freely.

I wish we could see your grandmother's linens. I can just imagine the embroidered beauties.

My father was a tailor. My mother loved to sew. She sewed my clothing for school.

What a great idea! Always wanted to do that but always end up crocheting or knitting afghans and throws, even though I LOVE to hand sew.

I have friends who won't stop to watch tv without also doing some handwork. They feel somehow justified in watching the television that way.

I couldn't do that. I get so engrossed in what I watch I'd stick my fingers for sure!

Alliemae

Marni, WOW!! Not a bad idea at all.

I did hear last night on the news that Starbucks has discontinued their very, very chocolate drink (can't remember the name but it sounded exotic). I rarely go to Starbucks but wish I had tasted that super-duper chocolate drink!!

Alliemae

Hats: No male to be be excluded! Harold is a joy! (I am hoping, though, that no one is smoking cigars!!!!)

I just mentioned the handwork thing because someone mentioned something that reminded me of how men (in the past) used to head off by themselves to drink, smoke, and talk without the ladies after a meal. And we're sort of in a colonial mode here.

But a contemporary colonial mode!!!

When I was in my 30's, there was a woman in town who taught quilting in adult education. I attended her class and learned, for the first time, some basics about quilting. It was really fun and interesting. We made a number of pillows, using a different quilting design each time - everything by hand, no machines, for the quilting part. Gosh, I can't even remember anymore the names of the design - they each had a name.....Oh, one was called "cathedral window," I think. One was made with trapunto technique. One was a beautiful star.

It was very detailed intricate work, but so worth the time. I wonder if I could do it anymore with my arthritis in my right hand. I'm not sure I have the patience anymore, either!!!

Marni

I've never quilted, but I'm fascinated by quilts. I'm an avid mystery story reader, and one of my favorite authors is Earlene Fowler who bases each mystery story on a quilting pattern. She has a picture of the pattern in the front, and explains it's history, how it got it's name, and even some myths associated with it (for example if you cover a baby with a quilt in the pattern "Drunkard's walk", he'll grow up to be an alcoholic).

Now I don't quilt, but I do weave baskets. This must have been done during Colonial times. So I do think if I would whip up one to hold a bottle or two of the Madeira and the chocolates that that would be a good thing....

Marylin: Basket weaving is one of the most ancient of arts. Do you have any digital photos of your baskets that we could see online?

I was reading about quilts and quilting bees and found some very interesting information. e.g.:

"Needlework is the one art in which women controlled the education of their daughters, the production of the art, and were also its audience and critics. Before the Civil War quilting was the main form of needlework in the United States, practiced in most households by females old enough to hold a needle. Later, girls were taught to sew even before they learned to read (if they even were taught to read)."

"Susan B. Anthony delivered her first speech to women at a church quilting bee in Cleveland."

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/women/html/wh_031000_quilting.htm

"When America was first settled, fabric was scarce and the settlers had more important things to do than make quilts. Before the Revolutionary War, commercially made fabrics and quilts were imported to the Colonies, which had not yet developed a fabric industry of their own.

Since quilts were considered a luxury, most likely the wealthier residents of the east coast, those closest to the major ports where fabric arrived by ship, were the only ones able to acquire them. The American quilting industry was born there, as tailors and housewives saw a market they could fill.

In the early 1700’s floral fabrics from France began to arrive. They were quite expensive, so the quilters of the day would carefully cut out the designs and attach them to cheaper backings. This was the beginning of the pieced quilting movement in America and the first of many original mosaic style quilts featuring popular quilt patterns, such as the “Tree of Life” began to appear. Over the years leading up to the Revolution, quilting became more popular, but the war itself put a crimp in the availability of fabric, something that would reoccur with just about every period of war until recent times."

http://www.theartfulcrafter.com/quilting-two.html

Some photos of beautiful quilts:

Quilts

Marni

I found some info about colonial basket weaving:

"In colonial times, baskets were made of hickory, cedar, ash, and reeds. Colonists preferred white oak for its clear, perfect, straight grain. They saved the reddish heartwood fort he basket handles."

http://www.promotega.org/csu30025/Trades.htm

http://www.history.org/Almanack/life/trades/tradebas.cfm

I came across this list of colonial occupations as I was browsing through information about baskets. It's kind of an interesting list. I've never heard of a number of the occupations, such as:

ALNAGER: official who examined the quality of woolen goods and stamped them with the town seal of approval

AMANUENSIS: one who is employed to take dictation or to copy manuscript

PIKELET MAKER: baker who specialised in making small pancakes or crumpets (We could have used one of these as we were discussing Middlemarch!)

SKINKER: a tapster; one who drew ale

More: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~sam/occupation.html

Marni

RE: Quilting - there is a series of (fiction) books about quilting, written by Jennifer Chiavarini. Takes place in small-town Pennsylvania. Such a homely art now, I had no idea that it was available only to the elite in the beginning.

I'm so enthralled with all of the information on quilting and cooking and just being in the company of our own little 'quilting bee'.

I especially enjoyed finding out that Nanny Knit-a-Blanket was included in Marni's QUILTS as I am a knitter and crocheter (slower now that I, too, have arthritis of hands).

I have wished many, many times that I had saved bits of fabric to show my family history in a quilt.

Alliemae

I'm feeling terribly guilty about something. My husband inherited his father's quilt that had been in the family for many years. It was made by an ancestor in America in 1802. Actually, it's not a quilt - but a woven wool bedspread for a double bed. It was hand-woven on a loom and it has all kinds of designs on it, like stars, log cabins, etc. Woven into it is the ancestor's name and the date. It's very heavy and very beautiful - made just of the colors blue and white. (I wonder if the blue is from indigo??)

I put the bedspread on one of our guest beds. Apparently, the sun shone on it during the afternoons. It BURNED a section of the white wool and turned it brown. I can't believe I wrecked it. It must be so valuable.

I wonder if there is any way to fix it???

Marni

Alliemae: Do you know how to create your own quilt designs? That would be so neat to create a family quilt.

I finally found some good photos of a kitchen & ovens in an old American house, although it is a bit later than colonial - Hull House in Lancaster, New York in Erie County - built in 1810. This house is in the National Register of Historic Places. Scroll down and click on any picture to enlarge it.

http://www.landmark-niagara.org/hull/int/index.html

And here's a better closeup of the beehive oven next to the fireplace.

http://ah.bfn.org/a/virtual/us/gen/humph/source/22.html

Jackie: Here's a site about Jennifer Chiaverini, who wrote the Elm Creek Quilts novels:

http://www.elmcreek.net/

Marni - those sites are wonderful, thank you. The quote from the first one about quilts that it's an art that transcends is very visible in my family. As I mentioned before my Pennsylvania, farm-raised mother made quilts for years. Her quilts tended to be light-weight, "summer" bedding, made at first from cotton and later from washable left-over scraps or pieces she bought to make her design. Her batting was very light and thin and the colors tended to be mostly light colors. My mother-in-law who was African-American and grew up in South Carolina made heavier "winter" covers and called them comforts. They were thicker and heavier and darker materials. She made mostly "crazy quilts" where my mother made "patterned" quilts. Some of the patterns i can remember now - I used to know them all - were log cabin, wedding ring, something-"fan,"etc. and she hand pieced them and hand stitched them in tiny little stitches. My MIL hand pieced hers, but them did large fancy "emboidery-like" stitches along the piecing. I grew up w/ the quilting frames in my bedroom and thinking i would be using them someday, but one must be a very good detail person to be a quilter, which i am not. Knitting and crocheting are easy to "frog" if i make a mistake, quilting is not!!

I always tho't basket-making would be fun. When I was director of the YWCA we had a lot of interest in basket-making classes, but i never had an opportunity to take the class.

I find it interesting how men and women have thru out history turned necessary chores - feeding and clothing and keeping the family warm - into social and/or creative events. ......jean

Jean: Re "men and women have thru out history turned necessary chores - feeding and clothing and keeping the family warm - into social and/or creative events..."

It seems that many of the chores would have become so extremely tedious if they hadn't been able to help each other, work as teams, and make social and creative events out of some of them. What hard work!

I took a chair caning course in adult ed one semester years ago. I had bought a set of beautiful walnut chairs with cane seats for my dining room. They were in excellent condition except that a couple of the chairs needed re-caning. When you hire someone to do it for you, they charge by the hole and it's expensive. So, my husband and I each did one chair. It took us a whole semester of adult ed to finish our chairs! Of course, we were gabbing away the whole time, too, because the class was a very social event as we caned away. But what a lot of work!

Now I cringe whenever someone particularly heavy sits in one of my caned chairs because that can cause an accident of the cane tearing. It was not the most practical thing in the world to get caned chairs. But, they are very handsome.

Marni

Marni: Thanks for the site. I just finished her latest, about the early Elm Creek (1840's) and one of the quilts used to help slaves on their journey to Canada. Such perilous times, one couldn't trust one's neighbors; slave hunters everywhere.

Jean Your last comment is really interesting. There is such a difference even in one generation now here in the country. My husband tells of things that they did on the farm when he was a boy and now it seems there is no difference from living in the city (except lots more room). But there seemed to be much more socialization just for the normal necessities for living then. Don't know if TV or convenient transportation is to blame.

Marnie - thanks for all the wonderful sites. I didn't get through all the occupations (just made it thru the 'B;s'), but in the grand scheme of things it has not been all that long since the Colonial days and look at all the occupations that are gone.

I do have a digital and would be glad to post pictures of some of my baskets (nothing fancy, by the way), but I really don't know how to post them here. Instructions? It also would be nice to see some of the quilts that have been spoken off.

Thanks again to all for the wonderfully interesting sites.

Marylin: Can you send your digital photos to me as attachments to an email? If you do that, I'll arrange to have them posted here. Let me know here in a post when you send your email so I'll be on the lookout for it. Send your email to:

robert.lydecker@snet.net

Please use as the Subject of the email: Founding Mothers

Thanks, Marylin! That will be really neat to see your baskets!

Marni

Marni,

I need to catch up! As always you have given lots of sites to learn from and enjoy. I can't wait to read all the posts and look at the clickables too.

HA! It's not only men who use madiera for nefarious purposes (as in heh, heh, heh)!! Wait till you see what one of our founding mothers does with it. We definitely need to have some on hand.

Hi JoanK,

Now I am really curious.

JoanK: I was visiting with my father today and mentioned the song "Have Some Madeira, My Dear?" By gum, if he doesn't have the record! Somewhere.....That's the sticky wicket. (My parents save everything. And I mean that literally.)

Well, I cooked today for the first time with an implement the founding mothers surely never had - a digital food thermometer. I got one for Christmas. Had to read the directions. So far so good. I'll have to see how the roast turns out.

Let us know! Directions for charcoal grills say to time how long you can hold your hand over the heat as an indicator of the temperature. My grandmother used to flick a few drops of water into the skillet; when it was hot enough the drops would dance.

The digital thermometer worked very well! I selected medium rare and the roast came out exactly right. I was wondering how the wire would fit out the oven door, but the door shut without any trouble over the wire. It's great because it shows the meat temp. throughout the cooking process compared to the temp. it will be when done.

I have begun reading "Founding Mothers." I must say Cokie Roberts style of writing is wonderful. I would love to know if she has written any other historical books. Because of the way she writes or because of the facts she picks I feel sympathetic toward Aaron Burr. Just knowing a little about his family life makes me feel badly for him. Families faced hard times living in Colonial America.

I know it's too early to talk about the book. So, I won't say another word. I am just so excited that it has been chosen for discussion.

Is the book "Founding Fathers" as good a read as Cokie's book?

I think "Founding Mothers" is special because Cokie Roberts includes the letters and/or journals of the Founding Mothers. Reading the book is like sitting down and having a conversation with these ladies.

Hats - you are whetting my appetite. Must stop all the reading on the sites and get on to reading the book.

Marnie - I often wonder how I would bake/cook without all the modern day conveniences. Can you imagine guessing the temperature of an oven? Or doing all the mixing without an electric mixer? There are so many things we use today that we think are 'normal'.

I will send the basket pictures late tonight. I usually send photos during the night as we have a slow dial-up. Now that sounds old fashioned, but just think of how the Colonists would marvel at the world today. That sounds like a Rip Van Winkle story idea in the making.

Hi Marylin,

I could never live without a microwave. Just imagine if Abigail Adams and the others could walk in a modern kitchen, what would they say or do first?

Hats: I'm so glad you're enjoying the book so much. Yay! I agree that we should hold off until March before discussing the book. Some people who signed up won't begin joining us until March 1 and I don't want them to miss out on anything. But we have tons we can discuss before then that is related to the book! I'll check to see if I can find out what else Cokie Roberts has written.

--------------------------------------------

Marylin: I'll be on the lookout for your email.

It really is unbelievable how quickly we become dependent on new technology. Now that I have DSL, I think I'd go berserk if I had to go back to slow internet speed.

My mother's microwave broke and then immediately her oven broke. Just her gas stove-top burners work. She and my dad are in the "Meals on Wheels" program and use their microwave to heat up their meals if they wait til dinnertime to eat. Meals come in plastic containers. You'd think nothing could be easier than "Meals on Wheels" but if your microwave and oven are broken, it's more work to warm the meals up. I had to work with Mom to order a replacement microwave (under warrantee) and it won't arrive to the end of Feb.

I wonder what our colonial forebears would think of Mom's "difficulty"! Just getting wood for the fire would be a task of mammoth proportions for me! Just think of the supply you would need every single day!

I am just reading a book about Lincoln and his rivals for the 1860 presidency. When his wife, Mary Todd, married him, her family was quite disgusted with her that she would marry someone so beneath her and so poor. Lincoln always provided for his family, but he didn't make much money for awhile. Mary had a house, but no servants in the beginning of the marriage. She came from a wealthy home in a slave state. (I don't know if her family had slaves, but they certainly had plenty of help. I know her brothers fought for the Confederacy.) She had to learn a lot and work very hard to take care of her new home. Eventually, Lincoln made enough so they could pay for some household help.

I imagine it must have been much harder for Mary Todd Lincoln to adjust to her new marriage lifestyle than for someone today! I guess it's all relative, though.

Marni

I can't believe it. I haven't read a whole book about Abe Lincoln yet. Marni, what do you recommend?

I think you recommended "Lincoln" by Gore Vidal. I had forgotten.

Hats: Here is a review of a book about Lincoln that I am reserving at my library, along with Doris Kearns Goodwin's book, Sounds very interesting:

click here for book review

edited to prevent scrolling

Mrs. Sherlock,

Thank you for the link.

Hats and Mrs. Sherlock: I think you'll enjoy the Doris Kearns Goodwin book about Lincoln and his rivals. There is so much about the issue of slavery in 19th century politics that I never knew. And the biographical information about Lincoln and his family and friends and those of his rivals is really fascinating.

One thing that interested me is that DKG talks about some very close relationships of men with other men. Recently, there have been a number of suggestions in biographies and TV programs that some great men, such as Lincoln, Seward, John Paul Jones, and Alexander Hamilton, had homosexual relationships with special friends. DKG talks about close male friendships and the times.

I really enjoyed the Gore Lincoln, too. It's an historical novel, but Gore did so much research. A lot of it seems to be based on fact.

Those are the only two books I've read about Lincoln. I really did not know much about him until recently. I've always heard that he was one of our very greatest presidents, but now I admire him even more.

Does anyone else have any recommendations on books about Lincoln? And, considering it's Presidents' Day, how about books about Washington? (I enjoyed His Excellency.) Or any other presidents?

Marni

Marni,

I am glad to hear you enjoyed "His Excellency" by Joseph Ellis. I think we are going to read it soon for a discussion. I am anxious to know more about Washington.

Lincoln, a Life of Purpose and Power by Richard Carwardine (Knopf) is given a great review
in yesterday's N.Y. Times Book Review.

One paragraph which I liked covers the fact that Lincoln was the original Great Communicator, an
orator of amazing power.
For any of you familiar with either Roman or British politics, you'll recall that the art the orator was
highly valued and did sway government decisions, and was highly lauded in the media.

America has skidded down the path to sound bites, but at least we can still read about the
great Lincoln. I plan to buy the book!

to stay in shape!! Or worry about not getting enough excercise and of course, for colonial women that was even more true. Chopping wood, tilling soil, planting gardens, stirring food, lifting iron kettles, chopping up chickens, etc. etc. I'm reading the Stephanie Wolf book that Harold recommended in the John Admas discussion about everyday life in colonial Amer. She says that even "middle-class" homes in the earliest days had few chairs. People stood, squatted, leaned instead of sitting and if they sat it was on the floor, so one had to be capable of getting up and down from that position!

As i tell my students often "we live in the best of times!!!" Of course, HAVING to do that excercise instead of "scheduling" it would mean a lot more of us would be getting much needed excercise

I know I would. We'd already be doing our "chores" so excercise wouldn't be such a "chore." Oh pun, pun, pun......jean

We've been out of town for a long weekend, so am having to get caught up.

Re the quilt discussions, nobody's yet mentioned The Quilts of Gee's Bend. http://www.quiltsofgeesbend.com/ I've always thought this was such a great story, and with such wonderful quilts.

Mippy: Thanks for that Lincoln recommendation. I'm going to try to find it when I finish my current Lincoln read. It certainly is something to hear about the marathon speeches by great orators like Henry Clay, John Calhoun, and Steven Douglas which could last for 4 or 5 hours or more - just one person's speech. People traveled for many miles to listen to political orations. They didn't have TV. It was a popular form of entertainment.

I remember hearing that when Lincoln gave the Gettysburg Address, the photographer who was setting up to take Lincoln's picture while he spoke didn't have a chance to get the picture. He was expecting Lincoln to talk for hours, but his speech only lasted 15 minutes (or less?). Also, Lincoln's voice was apparently high-pitched and reedy, but it projected a great distance so it didn't matter.

-------------------------------------------

Jean: That was so interesting about people not sitting much in chairs. I had no idea. I wonder if some of them had caned seats like my dining room chairs and they were worried people would break them if they sat in them!!! hahaha

-----------------------------------

Mary Z: Thanks for the link to The Quilts of Gee's Bend. What beautiful and unusual quilts!

Mippy, thank you for the book title. The title makes me very interested.

MaryZ, thanks for the link.

Mabel, thanks for mentioning that title again.

I have a question. In the Acknowledgments Cokie Roberts writes,

"These are by definition elite women. There are many other women of the time whose lives were much harder than the ones described here, but the Founding Fathers weren't listening to them."

I have been wondering if our definition of "elite" would differ from the definition of that day and time. I think of an "elite" lady of Colonial times as one with a very intelligent mind. A lady who is able to organize and plan for her household. I see her as suffering with her children through sicknesses and death because of the lack of medical care as we know it.

Then again, I remember Abigail Adams doing physically hard work herself because her husband was just beginning to move up in the world. Later, after John Adams began to make more money, go abroad, etc. I think Abigail did what she did by choice. "What exactly did an "elite" woman do in Colonial times? If she worked so hard by the sweat of her brow, she would not have time for thinking great thoughts or would she have had the time? I see the women who thought about change as the "elite" women.

Hats: Your questions and thoughts about elite women based on Cokie Roberts' Intro remark are very thought-provoking. If you don't mind, I'd like to borrow your statement and use it when we begin our discussion on March 1. I've added this posting to my list of questions. Thanks for your idea! Hope you don't mind waiting til next week to discuss it.

Marni

Marni, it's getting harder and harder to wait.

Well, I'm thrilled! Marylin has sent us photos of 3 of her gorgeous baskets that she made herself. I've asked our technical staff to add them either to our header above or as a posting so everyone can enjoy them! We should be able to see them soon!

Here's what Marylin said about the baskets:

"In the first I was actually taking a picture of some of the produce from my garden (I make use of the baskets!), the second was a gift for a friend (but wouldn't it be nice filled with chocolates), and the 3rd I couldn't resist sending - a wine basket made for a housewarming. Perfect for some madeira?"

They are truly beautiful and I can hardly wait for you to see them, also. Perfect for chocolates and madeira is right, Marylin!!!

If anyone else has digital photos of your handmade items, like quilts, for example, please let us know!

Marni

Jean: Last night I was thinking about what you said about this being the 300th anniversary of Ben Franklin's birth. I saw the article "Ben Franklin Slept Here" in the latest (March) edition of Smithsonian Magazine. Franklin's only surviving residence, 36 Craven Street, London, England, was restored and opened on Jan. 17 as a museum. It's just off Trafalgar Square. The article had some very interesting info about Ben, "the most amiable and eccentric founding father." He stayed at this residence for most of his 16 (gasp) years in London. (I had thought it was only 10 years.)

The building is a 5-story Georgian structure and Ben had rooms, including a laboratory, on the 1st floor. His wife Deborah, one of our Founding Mothers, sent him things from America that he liked - cornmeal, cranberries, buckwheat flour from Philadelphia....Ben debated topics in nearby coffeehouses and pubs such as the Dog Tavern, the George and Vulture (hahaha), and the Ship and Shovel.

It was here where Ben refined the Franklin stove, invented the Armonica, and perfected the lightening rod. (He had also invented swim fins! He had delighted in swimming long distances when a young man.)

Franklin took daily "air baths" here. Each morning, for 1/2 hour to an hour, he'd sit NUDE in the open 1st-story window, letting the air circulate over his body while he wrote letters!!! (No wonder he was considered eccentric!)

Marni

Marilyn's baskets are just beautiful!! Each design is so very different from the other one. What a wonderful talent!

Marjorie, thank you.

Not to change the subject I wanted to thank MaryZ again for including the article about the Gee's Bend Quilters. MaryZ, when my children were little, I quilted all the time. I would go the quilt exhibits at the Houston museum. Then, I had the chance to sell some quilts to ladies up on the mountain.

I just love the article and wanted you to know it. Aren't the colors in that quilt rich and bright?

Marilyn, how long did it take you to learn the art of basketry? The weave is so pretty.

Thanks for your help, Marjorie!! Marylin's baskets look great.

Aren't Marylin's baskets just GORGEOUS!!! They looked even better in the original pictures from Marylin, which show the details more. But they were very large and but we can only put photos of a certain size on these pages due to technical requirements.

Still, they look absolutely beautiful.

How long does it take to make one of these baskets, Marylin? They're so intricate and each with such a different design.

Marni

Hats, you must be an expert quilter! You even sold some!! Do you have digital photos of any of your quilts? We'd love to see them! If so, please send them to my email address:

robert.lydecker@snet.net

If you are able to send pictures, let me know what you call the patterns. Thanks!

Marni

Marni,

I don't have a digital camera. We are thinking of getting one. I no longer quilt. Now I crochet afghans. Crocheting is easier for me. I don't have to worry about piecing or appliquing the top. Then, putting batting in between and quilting the three pieces.

Quilts are so beautiful. It's well worth the work involved. I just don't have what it takes any longer. It's much faster to crochet, I think.

I'm so glad I have my digital camera. A few years ago I was thinking about getting one and saw an article in the newspaper that gave pros and cons to some brands. It recommended a Kodak DC215 Zoom for someone who wanted an inexpensive simple easy-to-use digital camera with nearly professional quality photos. I thought that's for me! And I bought it and have been happy with it since.

The only problem was when we upgraded to XP on our computer. The software to load the photos onto the computer doesn't work. I have to either load them onto my son's printer and then have him send me the photos by email. Or I have to have a CD made and then load the photos on from my CD.

I'm thinking now of getting a printer like my son has. I can load the memory card from my camera right into it and the photos automatically will load into my PC. And his printer only cost $79 - It's a Brothers brand.

Marni

Here's my one and only remaining quilted item that I made. It's a pillow in the cathedral window quilt design. I made it a jillion years ago. Kids played with it and it got dirty and I put it away. All my other quilted pillows I gave away as presents.

Does anyone have a recommendation on the best way I might clean this without ruining it. It's kind of delicate. I have to fix a few stitches.

image deleted because webpost wanted password to see it

Marni

Oh, thank you, Marni and Marjorie for posting the basket pictures, and for your kind words, Marni. To answer your question, I am a slow weaver, so it takes me a couple of days for a basket depending on the design and how long I 'stick to it' each day. I usually do one and that gets it out of my system for awhile, I pack everything up and don't make one for a bit.

Hats Thank you also for your kind words. To answer your question, I am still learning. I began by taking a 3 hr. class at Sauder Village (www.saudervillage.com/history/WhoWeAre.asp) once a few years ago and was hooked. From there it was just buying books, patterns, etc. I would like to take other classes (there is so much to learn about weaving) but there have been none available near here. I am a beginner weaver.

Quilting has always intrigued me. Sauder Village does offer lots of quilting classes, but I have never taken them. If anyone is ever in the NW Ohio area, a stop at the Village is a must. A class act. It was started by Erie Sauder, the founder of Sauder Furniture.

MaryZ Thank you for the Gee's Bend Quilters site. Those are the most unusual patterns I have ever seen in a quilt.

Now on a completely different subject, we are now redoing our bathroom. Can you imagine a Colonial woman viewing a modern bathroom? Also, can you imagine a modern woman sending goodies to a husband who has lived in Europe for 16 yrs.!

Marni - instead of the picture of your pillow, I get the small red x thingy. When I tell it to show the picture, a window pops up asking me for my 'network password'?? Any ideas how I might get your picture?

Marylin: Let's try a link to the picture and see if that works. Here goes:

Marylin: re "Can you imagine a Colonial woman viewing a modern bathroom?".....

I just happen to have a photo I took of Thomas Jefferson's bathroom (privy) at Monticello. Heh heh! See what we're missing! His was probably a special privy because his house was so stunning and he worked on it endlessly.

Oh, rats, the picture comes out very dark. Well, basically, there's a hole in a bench in a small dark room. That's it. Underneath, a stream flows by to wash away the waste.

Marni

The baskets are gorgeous! John and three of our daughters have done basketweaving - and have made some wonderful baskets. Like you, Marylin, we use ours - they're not just for show.

Glad you've enjoyed the Gee's Bend Quilt site. These ladies were "discovered" several years ago - I don't remember the whole story. But they've been written up in Smithsonian, been on CBS Sunday Morning, and their quilts have been on exhibit at the Smithsonian in Washington. The patterns are all original to the makers (as I understand it). I would dearly love to see them in person.

We have two great quilt shows in nearby Athens, TN. In the spring, the McMinn County History Museum has a show of local quilts - some new, some antique. In the fall, they have a show of quilts from some Japanese quiltmakers. The two types are so different, and all so beautiful.

Marni - the link did work, and the pillow is beautiful. I wonder if a professional cleaner would have some idea of how to clean it? Do you ever think that you will take up quilting again?
I enjoyed your picture of the 'bathroom' at Monticello. I was also thinking that Mrs. Jefferson would not have had to spend mucho days running around to displays to find just the right fixtures. At this point, I envy her!

Thank you, MaryZ. The baskets that I have kept, I use. Most I give for gifts. Regarding the quilts, there are several quilting displays of Amish-made quilts in nearby Indiana. They are simply beautiful. They are the more traditional patterns, though, not like the Gee's Bend quilts.

Antique baskets and quilts are worth so much money today. I see them on The Antique Roadshow sometimes or in antique shows and they are amazingly valuable. But you can see why when you look at all the handwork and talent required.

I wonder if colonial women got arthritis the way we do today? Maybe most of them didn't live long enough. I don't think I could quilt anymore with my hands. On the other hand, maybe they just did what they had to do and didn't complain the way I do!!

discussion! Congrats to all of you on your talents. The baskets and the pillow are beautifully made. I always tho't i might enjoy basket making as i mentioned before.

Don't you just love Ben! I would love him as a friend - NOT as a husband - but as a friend i think he would be perfect - fun, intellectually challenging, humorous, knows good wines and good food!! Wow! 16 yrs in London and how long in France? Maybe France was 10 yrs, Marni. I know he didn't spend much time w/ Deborah.

And i was outraged at John J Audubon for the way he treated his wife!!

I forgot about ole Ben. But I think because of his personality I gave Ben a little more slack then i did JJA. I think because JJA got so snooty about his wife not coming to him, it made me angry at him.......isn't it interesting how by just reading about these people we develop opinions about them?........jean

Jean: Re "isn't it interesting how by just reading about these people we develop opinions about them?" Isn't that ever true!

It amazes me how wrapped up I can get reading biographies about people who died centuries ago. I remember when I was reading the Ron Chernow bio of Alexander Hamilton last year, I started blubbering when the author described in detail the duel between him and Aaron Burr and the details of Hamilton's terrible trip back to New York and his death among his friends and family. I snuffled about it for days. Hamilton certainly had his faults, but I just grew to admire him so much reading that book that I ended up visiting his grave in NYC.

Marni

Marni,

I love your Cathedral Window pillow.It looks so perfect.

About the Founding Mothers, would they have done a lot of Crewel Embroidery? Crewel Embroidery is so beautiful with those shades of colors blending into one another on an exotic flower petal or an exotic looking bird or tree. Those embroidery pieces are now in some museums. I think the Tree of Life is sometimes done in Crewel Embroidery.

Remember Erica Wilson? She did beautiful Crewel Embroidery and also needlepoint, etc. I love the Crewel Embroidery.

Have not read many historical biographies, so you all are giving me lists that will last for a long time!

Thank you, Hats! The cathedral window pattern was the hardest quilting pattern I ever tried. It's a very beautiful pattern, though.

Re: "....the Founding Mothers, would they have done a lot of Crewel Embroidery?" I found an article about the history of crewel embroidery with good pictures. Here are some excerpts:

"The word crewel, with a variety of spellings, can be found in English records back to the 13th century. It is thought to have come from the East to Egypt then to Greece and Rome where it traveled with the Roman conquests to England. From the 15th century crewel embroidery meant any embroidery technique using fine worsted yarns. I've been known to say repeatedly that the name surely refers to the effect of the sharp needle on your fingers while stitching. This is definitely an untruth for past usage of the word crewel included tent and cross stitch using an inoffensive tapestry needle. By the 20th century crewelwork had been redefined to mean surface embroidery with wool. Crewel, by definition, is the application of a variety of stitches to the surface of fabric, usually linen, following a design applied to the fabric.

In 1600 Queen Elizabeth of England signed the charter for The East India Company opening up trade with the Far East which then introduced painted cottons called palampores. Designs for these eventually were dictated by English fashion but translated by Indian painters where they evolved into the fantastic tree of life with multiple flowers and leaves often growing from Chinese style mounds. Crewel work exploded into fantasy bed hangings with a palette of greens and blue greens, oversized leaves, birds and animals. The stitching became a contest of pattern and motif, with each leaf competing against the next for variety. This was not the only crewel style available during the 17th century but it is the most memorable. As the century progressed, the style lightened, becoming more graceful for its move to America.

American women in the 18th century took crewel to their hearts producing their simplified but original style of bed hangings, pockets, pocketbooks, petticoat borders, chair seats etc. The amount of crewel remaining in collections today attests to the devotion and industry of American women. Design became regionalized with mounds and prancing animals remaining popular near the seacoast, while blue and white scattered patterns were favored in the Connecticut Valley region. The stitches also changed as they moved from England; long and short to the faster self couching stitch also called New England laid or Roumanian. By the third quarter of the 18th Century, crewel faded as women became overwhelmed with the American Revolution."

Here's the link to the whole article and some examples of beautiful crewel work:

Crewel Embroidery

Marni

OMG - Did you see the crewel work on those petticoat borders? So incredible!!! The ladies must have worn their clothing so that their petticoats showed deliberately to show off the gorgeous needlework. I'm going to have to search for information about 18th century clothing.

Marni

Here's a wonderful Colonial Williamsburg site where you can see excellent info about colonial clothing with examples. You can move your cursor around on the clothing and see definitions pop up. (Unfortunately, the print is very small.)

Be sure to check the menu under Clothing in the left hand column to click on other clothing items.

Sure enough, the petticoat is exposed.

http://www.history.org/history/clothing/women/anatomy.cfm

Marni

I got a chuckle when I read the section about Stays. Thank goodness, we don't have to worry about anything like this today. Hurrah for casual clothing!

"Stays were the essential foundation garment of the 18th century. They developed from the "boned bodies" of the 17th century, and in the 19th century were to become corsets. But just as the names of these garments changed, so did the shape and effect upon the body. The fashionable 17th century torso was an elongated tubular trunk, with little taper and encased the bosom. Through the 18th century stays covered the body with their conical form, lifting and supporting the bosom.

In the 19th century corsets created a curvelinear body, minimizing the waist and accentuating the bosom. The stays of the 18th century, therefore, did much more to support the body and remind one of good posture than they did to cinch the waist. Women of the gentry and middling sorts wore stays most of the time. Children of these classes also wore stays to learn proper carriage. While fashionable ladies' stays were wanted for a good shape, working women needed them for good support. All women were admonished by their contemporaries to not tightly lace or "straight" lace their stays out of concern for possible injury. Those who did so out of vanity were mocked by the satirical print to the right, entitled, 'Tight Lacing or Fashion before Ease.'

The extent to which stays were worn by slaves is unclear. Plantation records do not indicate the use of stays in the yearly allotment to field slaves. That some slaves, particularly house slaves, did wear stays is proven by the many descriptions in runaway ads. As the sorts of women who wore stays varied greatly, so did the types and quality of the garments themselves. Frequently constructed in layers of linen with narrow strips of boning inserted within, stays could vary from perfectly rigid to very pliable. Boning was either baleen, metal, wood, pasteboard, or pack thread. Their exteriors could be covered in fine silks, utilitarian worsteds, or plain linens. Perhaps the lowest sort of stays were those given by church charity, generally made in a single layer of thick leather."

Marni

Here are interesting quotes from the Colonial Williamsburg site:

"Keep in mind that fashion changed as fast as the weather in England and hence in Virginia, therefore what style or philosophy was in vogue one year would be forgotten the next....It is comforting to know that 18th Century people were concerned about the rapidly changing fashion and the amount of time, energy and money lavished on fashion as we are in this century."

"The whirl of fashion during the 1700s was endless and often contradictory. Consider these facts. During the 18th Century, ladies' skirt styles changed five times. It was not unheard of for hat styles to change 17 times during a 2-year period."

"English fashion dominated in Colonial Virginia. In England, however, French styles had a wide following, particularly among the upper classes. This link was so strong that people joked a gown worn in Paris this week easily could reappear at a London soiree the next."

Great information, Marni - thanks. So the term "straight-laced" meaning up-tight or very proper comes from the stays that the ladies wore. Isn't word history fun?

actually all the DL's do a great job of doing that and keeping us all so enthralled. Going off on tangents to talk about the information in the links is a great part of the charm of SN for me. We all appreciate you time and talents. I just love learning all these bits and pieces that all of you in the discussion bring forward for me to think/learn about. .......Don't you love About.com? ......jean

Here is info and pictures about 18th century women's hairdos and wigs. It takes a minute for the pictures to fill in.

http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/18THHAIR.HTM

About Men's Wigs:

Wigs entered England fashion by way of the French in the late 1630s. The first wigs were highly stylized. Wigs were tightly curled and reached the shoulders. From the period of 1680 through 1700, the length got longer, reaching the middle of the back.

Styles would change by 1710, the length shortening. Wigs also got smaller and less complicated in their design. Curls only existed on the sides, the balance of the hair falling straight back and tied into a short ponytail.

Caring for the Wig

How did a man take care of his wig? Wigs were maintained with fat mixed with cinnamon and cloves. The wigs were also powdered with perfumed flour.

Type of Wig Showed Rank

As the wig was an important item of the fashionable, the size, material and style evidenced the position of its wearer. Wigs that were made from human hair were the most expensive and finest made. Wigs were also made from yak, goat or horse mane hair. These, of course, were of a lesser grade. For the man who did not go bald, he would have slips of his own hair peek from beneath the wig.

http://www.romanceeverafter.com/fashionable_head_covering_the_wig.htm

More about men's wigs and some pictures. (It takes a minute for the pictures to fill in.)

http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/18THHAIR.HTM

Larger pictures of various styles of men's wigs in the 18th century:

http://www.englishcountrydancing.org/frenchfashion3.html

I think I put the wrong link in for women's wigs above. Here goes another try:

http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/18thhoeyhats.htm

"Fat!"Oh yeah, that's got to smell great after a week or two, regardless of how much cinnamon and lavendar they plop on top of it!

However, that "cap" idea might not be a bad one to revive for those bad hair days.......LOL

Remember those girdles we wore - I in the '50's, even tho i was all of 100 lbs. We had to have something to hold up our stockings AND we were not allowed to have ANYTHING jiggle! I wore one only when i was going to church or some such occaison, but my Mother wore stockings everyday of her life, even when she was working in the garden.

Thank you, thank you, thank you to the contemporary women's movement!!.........remember at the Democratic Convention in Atlantic City, the press said the women "burned their bras and girdles"? Well, they didn't really "burn" them, they put them in trash cans, but "burning bras" has become a symbolic statement for feminists and I say 'right on' especially where the girdles are concerned. As w/ everything the pendulum has sometimes, on some women, swung waaaaaay to far in the no underwear dept, but on the whole, it has been a good thing IMO...jean

Thanks, Jean, and everybody! I love roaming around on the web trying to find interesting information. It still boggles my mind at what we can find out here!!!

Jean: I'm going to have to look more carefully at About.com. It pops up everyone once in awhile when I'm searching for a particular topic.

Marni

I noticed last year that there was a brief comeback of the garter belt and stockings with seams! And I still see girdles in lingerie departments. I remember the relief we had when garter belts were replacing girdles. I was in college when pantie hose were invented. We thought they were just fabulous! But remember how wrinkly they were at first? They didn't have the same stretchy fabric and perfect sizing that came a few years later. I remember my knees would get wrinkled.

Marni - what a fountain of information and I only got thru some of the sites! Thank you

Mabel - I had the same reaction to the fat used to maintain the wigs. Can you imagine being in a room with 20 or 30 men whose wigs were a few weeks into being maintained? Whew!

I can remember my mother wearing a corset and dress every day. I also can remember begging and begging and begging to be allowed to wear jeans when I was in grade school. My father was very strict about girls in 'pants'. I don't rmember at what age I finally won the battle.

I am going to stick my nose in here - I studied all sorts of Needlework for years - went to both England and France to do more study and taught Samplers with the The Embroiderers' Guild of America (EGA) having developed a teaching sampler as a result of my study at the Fitzwilliam in Cambridge.

Let me get this one out of the way - the word crewel or cruell referred to the wool yarn and not the style of embroidery - Crewel is an old Welsh word meaning "wool." It is thought that the wool used to stitch were the end of the bobbins of wool used for the weaving of clothing. American women had little time to do needlework to decorate large pieces of cloth and therefore, most of the American work is smaller decorative items.

The history of all embroidery is the study of the availability of light and needles - there were more embroidery pieces stitched in the upper class, not only because women had the time but because glazing remained a great luxury up to the late Middle Ages, with royal palaces and churches the buildings to have glass windows. Up through the late Middle Ages Guilds were the established groups of "men" who created all needlework from gold work on uniforms, flags, the clothing of royalty to making velvet, tapestrys and felt.

Printing a design on cloth, in Europe is a very recent skill that was only available in the eighteenth century so that designs on clothing were either stitched on or, woven in or, the threads of the cloth were separated and bundled together forming a lace.

It was in the very late 1600s that a form of plate glass was developed in France - this process brought about more availability for windows so that the average women did not have only the doorstep to sit on during warm weather, for the light she needed for needlework.

Young girls created lace and other fine needlework by the fractures of light from a candle shining off a cut glass goblet while she sat 12 or more to a room without heat - each girl seated with her tiny fracture of light on her work. Lead crystal was developed in England some 15 years before plate glass. With the light from a lead crystal glass goblet half filled with water to reflect the light from the candle an efflux of lace was produced by young women of whom 90% went blind by the age of 24.

Lace, its transport and taxing is another whole story... back to the crewel work - Arabs alone knew how to make needles. With their expulsion from Spain in 1492, needles became very scarce - it was not until 1650 that the English figured out how to hand make a steel needle and much later before they were made in quantities which opened the door to the women of merchant families and landowner families being able to pursue needlework. And so it all came together in the 1600s - light through glass windows and steel needles.

A side note - when I was studying old letters between daughters and their mothers at the Fitswilliam, I read one from a younger daughter who begged her mother to send her the family sampler since she was all alone so far away in Nottingham, where as her older sister [the eldest daughter inherited the rolled family Sampler with all the stitches and designs] lived right there in London near her Mom and they could easily continue to stitch by using her Mom's sister's Sampler.

We have no idea if any of these family rolled samplers made it across the ocean as the guides for the early needlework here in America - however we do know that most of the threads used were grown, spun, dyed by the women who did the work unless they were among the few who were wealthy enough to have materials sent to them from England and France.

As early as 1640 there are decrees issued in the colonies that families must grow flax for weaving which is the alternate thread used in Lindsy Woolsy.

And that is the secret of most needlework - we think of the early samplers and great bed hangings or special 15th century purses and boxes but decorative needlework was the stuff of Shepherds and other tradesmen -

Smocks that go back to 11th century Europe is the way to trace the sophistication of stitches and in the Balkins and Middle East they learned to make felt before Christ. Trades people, shepherds and farmers wore felt capes and hats, even saddle blankets were gradually decorated by applying dyed felt on top of felt, first in strips and later in designs - and then for the study of Lace we start with the borders on garments shown in Graeco-Roman statuary and jars. later the vestments worn by priests.

In the US we did not have a history of clothes dependent on European peasant wear - we borrowed from the rich history of Native American needlework that would take another huge long post to explore. The Native American decorative stitchery was also influenced, as was the world history of textiles, by the material that were discovered over time.

Isn't it amazing that the study of something as seemingly simple as the decoration of clothing can teach us so much about all phases of life at a given time. Many thanks, Barbara.

So many interesting things. Thanks, Barbara, for all of that information.

Barbara: You have so much experience and knowledge of needlework. Thank you so much for all of that interesting information!

If you stopped in just a little while ago, and saw a message from me. Forget it. (I deleted it.) I'm suffering from burnout, and a bit on the grouchy side.

Carry on.....see you later.

Sun

Sunknow - I'm sorry you're unhappy we started chatting before the book discussion began. It happens often. However, we have been very careful not to begin any discussion of the book. We're waiting until March 1 for that. Some of us just enjoy a pre-discussion of related topics. A number who signed up for Founding Mothers have not been participating in the pre-discussion and will not be here until March 1.

Believe me, the book itself is another discussion entirely. I have been preparing discussion questions. It is by no means necessary to participate in any pre-discussion. You will not miss out on anything by waiting until March to join us.

I will mark the spot where we will begin posting the book discussion on March 1. You don't have to read any of the postings prior to that in order to participate in the book discussion. And you won't miss out on anything related to the book discussion topics.

Why don't you just wait until March 1 and then return. I do hope you will return because we'd love to have you and hear what you have to say.

Marni

Well, I'm off to Boston in the a.m. to visit in-laws for the weekend. Often we'll visit historic sites when we go. The last time we visited, we went to Castle Island and saw the old fort there that was mentioned in McCullough's 1776. I hope we do something like that this weekend, although we haven't planned anything special. It may snow.

Marni

...however, being the 'efficient' type (i.e. rather lazy and needing 'instant gratification'!!) I have been enjoying knitting afghans and throws and scarves with the roundest of needles (between 1/4 and 1/3 inch diameter) made of wood (doesn't stick to the plastic and I don't have to hear metal against metal!) and a fine polyester wool (for babies and 'dressup' or 4-ply sports yarn (both machine washable) using a simple knit, row after row after row and the items come out so lacy and soft and huggable; also results are seen so quickly that I have my instant gratification.

Just thought I'd mention it...and...you can easily do this while chatting or watching tv as it requires little, if any, concentration.

Alliemae

Oh Marni...lucky you!! My son and his family used to live in Boston, right up the hill from the Commons!

I worked in Boston in 1968 at the New England Newsclip Agency (very interesting job as a speed reader getting clippings marked for our clients) and did mainly southern NY and CT but one of my accounts was for Ted Kennedy!! Oh how I loved Boston. Always picked up lunch on the way back from sightseeing on my regular lunch break and ate half in my afternoon work break and half for my 'supper' after I had gotten the kids settled and in bed.

We lived in Chelsea in a fourth floor apartment...me and four kids, one in a stroller. Each trip to work and then back home required a couple of trips up and down the stairs to and from the fourth floor just so that I could have me, the kids and the stroller ready!! We returned back to Philly after summer so the kids could go back to their own schools and I had lost pounds and pounds and even more inches!! Good memories indeed!!

Hope you are having a wonderful time!!

Alliemae

I love Boston, too, Alliemae! I'm so glad my sister-in-law lives there and likes to have fun. We didn't do much this weekend, though - mostly sat around a fire eating and talking all weekend because it was so cold and snowy. We did visit a great discount bookstore and went on a driving tour of Wellesley College.

We talked lots about books and bought a bunch. I bought An Imperfect God: George Washington, His Slaves, and the Creation of America by Henry Wiencek. I've never heard of it but it was on sale for $5.95 (hardback) so I couldn't resist. And I borrowed 2 McCullough books - Truman and the one about the Brooklyn Bridge. I'm thrilled!

I'm reading it also Marni, very interesting, gives a different aspect of GW's life.

Alliemae - I'm also an afghan, baby blanket, scarf knitter and crocheter; i've gotten past the stage of wanting to "fit" sweaters, etc. It is a good way to feel productive while watching tv. My son and dgts' friends are all starting houses, marriages and babies, so i keep them supplied. I like the idea that i can pick/make my own patterns and colors, makes me feel a little creative. I wonder how we would feel about it if we HAD to do handicrafts to keep our family warm, or decorate linens or petticoats for a little beauty in our lives as the women did before. Maybe the decorating part would be fun, but I don't know if the warmth/practical/necessity part would be as much fun........jean

Hi Marni,

I am glad you are back. Marni and Mabel thank you for mentioning the book about Washington. I would like to read it too. It's just another perspective.

You know, I would love to read "Truman." I thought about checking "Truman" out from the library. I would love to read the one by David McCullough. Marni, let us know how you like it. I will wait for your review.

Truman by David McCullough is excellent. I've read it twice.
All of David McCullough's books are worth reading, IMO.

Mippy, I am glad you liked it. I will certainly check it out from the library. I have fallen in love with David McCullough's writing. I bought a copy of "John Adams."

Jean: How interesting you're reading the same book! I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it. I think I'll read it next after I finish the Lincoln which I am loving so much but it is really long. So, you're a crafter, too. Looks like we're a talented bunch!!

Hats and Mippy: I'm looking forward to McCullough's Truman, too. I've heard from several readers that they thought it was McCullough's best work. I don't know a single thing about Truman, so it will be a real learning experience for me.

I think I'll have more time to read now that the Olympics are over. I was totally hooked on them. What an Olympics for the Italians. I was rooting for them because it was held in Italy. What an exciting conclusion to the last long cross country ski race. I missed the last 2 hours of the finale because I had to watch the conclusion of Bleak House. But that was worth it!

Marni

Marni,

I know zilch about "Truman." I can't wait to learn more about him. I like the Olympics in the winter better than the Olympics in the summer.

IMO he has a lot of similarities to John Adams. I wonder if DM would agree about that.His book on Truman is just as jammed packed, maybe more so, it's longer, as his book on Adams. I knew my Dad was a fan of HST, but when i started studying his administration during my college years and then when i was teaching about post-WWII I was astonished at the major decisions he had to make and so many of them have stood the test of time as being good decisions. And of course, there was that wonderful, exciting '48 whistlestop campaign and the 'upset' of the election. .......jean

from STephanie Wolf's book "As Various as their Lands" (recommended by Harold) about 18th century everyday life.

"......Flocks of sheep tended by men and patches of flax and hemp grown in women's gardens provided the woollen, linen, burlap and 'duck' that clothed most Americans, covered their beds, and provided storage for their 'dry goods' and sails for their ships. Men saw to the shearing of the sheep and the combing of the wool, as well as to the heavy work of "breaking" and "hackling" flax and hemp, that is, separating the fibers from the stems of the plants and softening them to make them ready for spinning.

"Women spun the fibers to turn them into yarn or thread suitable for making cloth, this was a job perfectly suited to the concept of women's work as relatively light, easily interruptible, and requiring some - not too much - skill and training."(not too much skill...easily interruptible, ummmm)

"....On the other hand, the craft of weaving - which required skill, concentrated blocks of time and a fair amt of investment in the equipment, as well as a good deal of space in which to set up the looms - had long been a man's job."......(What a surprise, i had never seen anything about men weaving here in the colonies)

"....by the middle of the 18th century, women on well-established farms where ...there were enough children or servants to help w/ the regular household tasks began to break the gender barrier and weave their own fabric, or set their female servants and slaves to do it for them....when it came to making hshld items and clothing out of textiles....women were expected to be skillful w/ shears for cutting cloth and w/ the needle for sewing it together. It was they who made the sheets, napkins, bed-curtains and cushions used in the house; they who made the basic family clothes. .....No matter who made the clothes and sheets, no matter how simple or fancy, maintenance was the woman's responsibility. Repairing rips and tears, remaking out-of-date or outgrown items, experimenting w/ special "receipts" (recipes) for removing stains and boiling, beating, starching and ironing the 'white wash' were so clearly eschewed by real American men that a foreign observer at Bunker Hill blamed the 'ragged and unkempt' appearance of Am soldiers on a lack of washerwomen and seamstresses. 'Americans (men), not being used to doing things of this sort, rather to let their linen, etc, rot upon their backs than to be at the trouble of cleaning 'em themselves.' .....'They wore what they had until it crusted over and fell apart.'"

Phewwwww! I'm tired just writing that.....interesting reasoning for the gender division of tasks, uh?

Tho't you might enjoy that.....jean

Wow! So much interesting info there, Jean! 'They wore what they had until it crusted over and fell apart.' Isn't that something! You always hear about the ragged army with no clothes or shoes. In 1776 it sounded like some of the men were literally naked. No wonder. Their clothes must have just rotted off from being filthy!

I did 5 loads of laundry today, thinking to myself how I really needed to have a laundry room upstairs instead of in the basement. I got to thinking of what it must have been like to do laundry before the days of washing machines and dryers and even indoor plumbing! I cannot imagine working as hard physically on laundry as people had to do up until this century.

I remember when I was a little girl my mother had a washer with rollers on the top. After the clothes were washed, she'd wind the washed wet clothes through the rollers to wring out the water. She had no dryer and hung everything outside on the clothesline. My mother still hangs much of her laundry to dry on a clothes line. She says it smells good. No thanks! I think my clothes out of the dryer smell just fine! I hate housework!!

Housework? Only if I'm getting company, or there's nothing better to do, or it JUST CAN'T be put off!!

My mother had one of those washers also and hung her wash outside - remember the smell of clean sheets dried in the sun, aaaahhhhhh, or the feel of them frozen on the line, bbrrrrrrrr, as they would be today if i had had any hung outside!!

When Wolf mentioned the "receipts" for starching, it reminded me that my mother made her own starch along w/ her own soap and ketchup......i'm glad i don't have to do as much physical labor as she had to do, let alone women of pre-20th century. Of course, houses and clothes were not expected to be kept as clean as we expect today and there weren't as MANY clothes to make or look after. As each new "convenience" came along the standard of cleanliness or the amount and variety of food, or the standard of "decoration" expected was raised.....and today we have MARTHA who has put expectations waaaaaayyyyy over the top. Fortunately, i don't feel the need to go there LOL....jean

Marni and Mabel,

My mother had one of those washer machines with the rollers too. I remember hating the day she would pull that thing out of the corner of the kitchen. If I remember correctly, it made a mess too.

We had a small backyard. I remember my mother hanging clothes so neatly on those lines. I also have a washer and dryer. Our dryer is older than the washer. My husband keeps installing a heater in it. Then, it goes again. When I pull sheets and clothes out, everything is hot and toasty.

Mabel, thank you for typing that loooong quote. It really makes you think. With all of our complaining, our lives are far easier. If Abigail Adams lived now, she would really have time to write so many more of her ideas down for us to read.

Without refrigerators, how did women in those days keep their foods? Did they can? You know, you use mason jars to put up your peaches, green beans, pickles, etc. My sister would can goods. My husband's mother would can goods too. My husband had twelve or thirteen sisters and brothers.

Not having enough room for a loom reminded me of quilting frames. Some women had quilting frames hanging from the ceiling of their homes. In some way they could pull the quilting frame down to quilt. Have any of you seen these kind of quilting frames?

Mabel and Alliemae, I stopped quilting a long time ago. I now crochet. I find it very relaxing. I am trying very hard to make a pair of mittens. I need to start now in order to have a pair made by next winter.

Hats, et al - my mother had a sit-in-the-corner washing machine with the wringers on top. We'd pull it up to the double sink in the kitchen and wring from the washer to the sink. My older sister refused to learn how to use it, but I thought it was great fun (I was naive and SO young!), so I got to help with the chores.

One of the great days of my life was when I got my first washer - and THEN to finally get a dryer. IMHO, hanging the clothes on the line was always highly over-rated. It's right up there with ironing, IMO.

I laughed at your comment, Hats, about your husband keeping the dryer going. My W&D were both in the 25+ year age range a couple of years ago, when the dryer heating element went out. I told John that if he so much as TOUCHED the dryer I'd kill him! Under NO circumstances was he going to repair it again - I was going to get a new one. And then,

, since we had to move the washer out of the utility room to get the dryer out, I got a new front-loader washer, too.

We do prize the hand-work that our foremothers (and fathers) did and try to keep those skills alive. But you know that as soon as those men and women had new labor-saving devices, they hurried to use them. Quilters who had labored mightily over their hand sewing, were thrilled to have sewing machines to take over those chores. And here we are, now, wanting only hand-sewn quilts. Go figure!

MaryZ,

I'm laughing. If it's hard, we want it easy. If it's easy, we want it hard. Aren't we peculiar?

I am having so much fun remembering that wringer wash. I can see the clothes going through the wringer right now.

I, too, remember the wringer washers and the solar dryers (clothes lines). I like the smell of sheets and pillow cases dried on the line, but rarely do it. With birds visiting, I just don't like rewashing the sheets.... Does anyone remember the towels and washclothes dried on the line when there was no breeze? Ouch. When we were first married, my husband had an elderly aunt who used to iron everything - even her towels and wash clothes! I think she thought I was so worthless!

I remember my grandmother used to iron everything - EVERYTHING - even my grandfather's underwear! He was very particular about everything, very neat. Can you imagine ironing underpants??!! I hardly iron anything anymore.

My husband remembers sitting atop his mother's old washer and riding on it pretending he was riding a horse because it moved around when washing.

MaryZ: Welcome to our discussion!! I'm so glad to see you here. I hope I didn't miss you earlier. You've arrived at the opportune time because we are just about to begin our book discussion of Founding Mothers!!!!

Marni

I'm delighted to announce that tomorrow is March 1 and our Founding Mothers book discussion will officially begin.

The fireplace has a big stack of firewood and a warm fire is crackling. Cocoa is simmering gently and the wonderful scent of herbal tea is in the air. The madeira is about to be uncorked, so have your wine goblet ready! Grab your copy of Founding Mothers and join in tomorrow!

Tomorrow is the first day of Week 1 of our discussion. Week 1 covers the Introduction and Chapter 1 and Chapter 2. The Header above has a link to the Discussion Schedule. Discussion questions for each week will be provided in the header also.

I'm looking forward to our discussion of this fascinating book! See you tomorrow!

Marni

Marnie - I saw you in the Cuban nightclub again...will you be in shape for tomorrow?

Marni, I don't know how often I'll be here - actually, we're heading out of town in the morning for 8 days. I'll be checking in when I can and enjoying the discussion, but I don't have the book, so probably won't try to contribute. I do hope to get it read soon, though.

What's this about a Cuban nightclub????

MaryZ,

Have a safe and fun trip. I would like to know about the Cuban nightclub too.

Marni, are you dancing while the rest of us are sleeping? MaryZ and I won't tell.

MARNI: Cuban night club? Who knew you were so wild? I'd better hide the madiera!

I'll be traveling tomorrow, but will check in at the end of the week. I'm excited that we're ready to start.

Add me to the list of those who hate housework. When we lived in Israel, I did all the wash by hand, and hanging on the line. Nothing romantic about it. The rug was vacuumed by hanging it on the line and beating it with a stick. Since we lived in the desert, clouds of sand would come out. I did it once, then rolled up the rug, and stored it. The bare floors were easy to clean. They were marble and had drain holes in them. You swept them then emptied a bucket of soapy water on them and swept it down the drain. I wish I had those floors now.

Marylin: You are too funny!!! I was practicing my cha cha while exercising at Curves this afternoon. hahah!! I got inspired watching Dancing with the Stars. (Yes, I actually watched some of it! It was fun! My son is horrified that I watch some reality shows. But, then, he watches Fear Factor.)

Hats, I'm getting too old to give up my sleep - even for dancing! The Cuban nightclub is our Latin class student lounge (the Latin lounge hahaha!!)

MaryZ: Pop in any time. We look forward to it.

Joan: What a trooper - then and now. Wow! That was roughing it. But the floor really does sound fabulous. I just love marble floors - marble anything. So very beautiful and cool to the touch. Perfect floors for a warm climate.

See everyone tomorrow bearing wine glasses and books! Joan, no hiding the madeira!!!

Marni

1. How did Cokie Roberts obtain the information for this book? Why was it difficult to get a complete picture of the lives of these women?

Cokie Roberts had a very difficult time finding a paper trail for these women. Unfortunately, in this period of history what a man wrote and said was far more important than the words of a woman. Many of the diaries and letters written by women had been destroyed by themselves or another person. The words written by men have been kept far more carefully.

Women at this time did not have the vote yet. That gives an idea of inequality in society.

Why was it difficult to get a complete picture of these women? Women were not important. No, that is phrased incorrectly. Women were extremely important, but not recognized as being so. Even years later this was true. Someone doing genealogy told me about a massive grave marker (about 6 feet tall) from the early 1800's that she came upon that had all kinds of inscriptions on it for the gentleman buried beneath. Beside it was a simple marker with the one word "Wife" inscribed. In reading how Ben treated Deborah, I wanted to scream. He couldn't see his success was made possible by Deborah? Wonder if this was the norm?

Good morning, Hats and Marylin! Thanks for getting us started!

Welcome, everyone, to our Founding Mothers discussion. Pull up a comfortable chair - by the fireplace if it's cold and snowy the way it is here in CT where I am - and let's continue what Hats has started.

I was browsing through the back of our book last night looking at Cokie Roberts' notes where she indicates sources for information and quotes used in her book. The notes start on page 289 and go through page 348. Her sources are histories, biographies, essays, books of poetry, newspaper articles, journals, compilations of correspondence, and letters. The research Roberts did is amazing.

You're right, Hats. In the past, the men's words were published and saved. But, thank goodness so many women at that time were literate and wrote so many letters!! And so many people saved letters. Without modern technology, women wrote to friends, lovers, husbands, relatives - a lot! - much more than we write to each other today. And so many women kept daily journals noting interesting tidbits of their daily lives. Today we'll pick up the telephone or send an email much more often than we'll write a letter or note. How many of us today keep a daily journal?

Thank goodness, people often saved letters and journals then. Like John Adams, for example. His wife, Abigail, asked him to destroy her letters; but he saved them for posterity.

Many, of course, have been lost. But as time goes by and attic contents are revealed, more and more letters and journals are being found. They are changing history!

Marni

Marylin: Re "In reading how Ben treated Deborah, I wanted to scream. He couldn't see his success was made possible by Deborah? Wonder if this was the norm?" Good question!!

In the first chapter, wasn't that the most amazing story about Benjamin and Deborah Franklin! He spent 16 years in England working (and playing). She handled his American businesses and household and children for him while he was gone! I loved the ending of the chapter. Deborah had died and Ben had to go home to tend to all his affairs she had taken care of for him. Ben "had the audacity to mourn the loss of 'his old and faithful companion, and everyday...[he became] more sensible of the greatness of that loss that cannot now be repaired.'" Ben had a dream years later. "He went to heaven to try to reclaim his wife, but Deborah wouldn't have him. 'I have been your good wife....almost half a century. Be content with that.'"

HAH! I guess he finally got his!

Marni

I just found something I was looking for. I found a stack of love letters from my husband that he wrote to me before we were married and that I saved!! This book reminded me of how I used to write letters to people I loved and kept the ones they wrote to me. If my husband and I were to die tomorrow, my son would eventually have found them in my desk. (He would probably immediately throw them out!)

Did any of you write and save letters? Did any of you ever keep a daily journal?

I was thinking....in some cases, the women in our book were famous as a result of being a relative of someone famous - or sometimes were famous in their own right, like Catharine Macaulay, the Englishwoman who ardently supported America, corresponded with Mercy Warren, and who wrote the 5-volume History of England. If they were famous or related to fame, it would have been more likely that their letters and journals would have been saved.?

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I have to head down to New London to comfort my parents today. My dad had another fall and broke his ankle again.

This makes me think of the colonial women who took care of multiple generations, often all living together in the same house.

I'll be back this evening.

Marni

I was first attracted to this book when it was released last year, first by its title, then by its author’s name. Regarding the title I had read the Joseph Ellis book “Founding fathers” 3 years ago and really liked it. Of course I was familiar with the author, Cokie Roberts as the well-known news reporter that she is. My first thought was that the new title was something of the taking advantage of an opportunity to publish in another field exploiting the title connecting it to the previous Ellis success.

But I’ve found the Cokie Roberts plan for this book completely different from the Ellis plan for the “Founding Fathers” book. The latter case was less than a dozen, I remember it as eleven, chapter length stories each different about an interesting episode involving the founding Fathers. The two that stand out most prominently in my mind are the ones about the Burr/Hamilton duel and the Thomas Jefferson dinner party that resulted in a compromise that located the Nation’s capitol on the Potomac at a new city (Washington, D.C.)

In contrast the Founding Mothers plan involves stories about more than eleven prominent women active during the late colonial, revolutionary, and early independence years. I didn’t count the number but there are certainly many, quite a few of which I had never heard of before reading this book.

An early reservation in my mind regarding the value of this book stemmed from the obvious fact, the author was not a historian. Her claim to fame and recognition was in an entirely different field. How could she amass the research necessary to write such a book? Yet in the first part of this book Cokie Roberts seems to have given an adequate answer with the Acknowledgments and Authors Note, and Introduction chapters. Of course she had research help; so did Ellis, McCullough and Ambrose. They had their graduate students to exploit. In the end I felt quite satisfied with the caliber of the research that went into the writing.

Isn’t it interesting that these women, many of them quite obscure, got their lives recorded in historical records making a book such as this possible?

How nice to begin our visit with women in colonial times!

Marnie ~
... wishing you well on your trip and wishing good health to your father.
At least you don't have to make the journey on horseback! John Adams' exhausting trips,
sometimes without any escort, between Braintree and Philadelphia, are noted in biographies of him.

The question on Couverture caught my eye, as
I love learning words that were unfamiliar. Here's a link:
Couverture

Mippy, thanks very, very much for giving us that link!

I had been lulled (or was I lulling myself?) to sleep by the misconception that womens rights were at an all-time high and yet, in so many places in the world, women...our sisters...are living today, in 2006, by the same conditions as the women did in colonial times and worse.

I'm enjoying the book and admiring the women in it...so proud to have come from their contributions to our heritage...but even if I didn't get anything else out of it, learning about couverture by means of your link has given me back my fire! For that I thank you...all the women in this group...and Cokie Roberts.

Alliemae

I would be unfair not to add my following thoughts.

I truly believe that we in America and other places in the world have been blessed by having in our societies myriads of men who did not think in a backward and unfair manner.

I am sure that fathers who insisted on their wives and daughters and other women in their lives having a right to learn and to be treated with respect have so much to do with the quality of women's lives even from pre-colonial days and before.

My father and great-grandfather were both this sort of man and I thank them.

Alliemae

Harold: I'm glad you're satisfied with the caliber of research Cokie Roberts applied to her book. I was amazed at how she covered such a large amount of history in her book as well as biographical sketches of many many women along with fascinating anecdotes. It's quite a combination, but she does it successfully. A majority of her anecdotes I had not heard before, so that made it particularly interesting for me. And all the while, Roberts was contending with breast cancer. Quite a woman.

Here's some biographical information about Cokie Roberts on the NPR site: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=2101090

Mippy: Thanks for the explanation of couverture and thanks for the well wishes. It's startling to see how limited women's rights were in colonial times. It seemed married women had fewer rights than single women.

Alliemae: It did take men as well as women for American women to gain the rights they have today. But, what a struggle!

I loved reading about Abigail Adams and that she resented that women couldn’t own property or enter into contracts; she wanted new laws written into new government giving women rights and she pressured her husband about it. I loved reading the famous words she wrote to husband when the Constitution was being written: “Remember the ladies.” (They didn't and he didn't.) But I did love the words John Adams wrote to his wife: "“You are really brave, my dear, you are an heroine.”

Marni

Here are two good timelines listing events of the periods covered in chapters 1 and 2:

Timeline 1700-1763: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/rev-col.htm

Timeline 1763-1775: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/rev-prel.htm

I've been hunting for more portraits of the Founding Mothers in chpts 1 and 2 and the Founding Fathers they are associated with. Our book only shows one portrait per chapter. As you might imagine, I couldn't find any of some of the women. Perhaps none were ever painted or some were lost or are just not available online.

Here are some I found. (Abigail's takes awhile to load.)

Portraits of Abigail Adams: http://images.nypl.org/?id=494185&t=w

John Adams House (Adams National Historical Park in Quincy, MA): http://www.hgtv.com/hgtv/dc_home_tours_other/article/0,1793,HGTV_3460_1390219,00.html

Painting of Adams’ Home: http://images.nypl.org/?id=494232&t=w

Portrait in color of Mercy Otis Warren AND HER PLAYS!!!!! (Scroll down and click on Title of play to read it): http://www.americanrevolution.com/MercyOtisWarren.htm

Portrait in color of Deborah Read Franklin: http://www.fi.edu/franklin/family/inline/deborah.gif

Benjamin Franklin at court of France: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-027.jpg

Portrait of Sarah Franklin Bache: http://www.americanrevolution.com/SarahFranklinBache.htm

Portrait of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-106.jpg

Statue of Richard Stockton: http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CAP/PIX/stocrbrow.gif

Portrait of Catharine Macauley: http://www.npg.org.uk/live/OC_Data/images/weblg/5/7/mw40057.jpg

Marni

"....there's nothing unique about them. They did......what women do. They put one foot in front of the other in remarkable circumstances. They carried on."!!!! That is the story of much of "women's history."

Unfortunately many women and men have never learned anything about women's lives throughtout history, or of women who "in remarkable circumstance" did remarkable things, that, had they been men, would have probably put them in our history books for all of us to learn about in elementary school.

In the intro Cokie mentioned that Catherine Greene, the wife of our (for those of us who read 1176) beloved Nathaniel, helped Eli Whitney invent the cotton gin. Now, so many different people have been credited w/ the invention of the cotton gin that it a very confusing story at this point, but if this story is true, we should have heard about Catherine before now. Our history has been very slanted and omissive. We should all get into a women's history course somewhere. I'm offering to facilitate one at our local library and at the Life Center at the college.

Don't you love Eliza Lucas Pinckney? I think there was a recent new bio of her, I must try to find out. "Irritated w/ the incoveniences of war, she wished 'all the men were as great cowards as myself, it would make them more peaceably inclined.'" If she was serious it is a great philosophical statement, if she was being humorous, it was great wit.......jean

In case my note was lost in all the links above, if you click on the Mercy Otis Warren link in post #251, you'll also see links on that page that lead to her actual plays. I was pretty excited when I saw that!! A number of her writings are there also. Lots of interesting material about her.

Here is her link one more time, in case you missed it:

http://www.americanrevolution.com/MercyOtisWarren.htm

OOOHHHH my aching head just looking at those pics of Abigail in that huge wig!!!!!......jean

Hi, Jean! I loved Cokie's ending to her Intro, also! I also enjoyed what she said early on - she wanted to know what the women were doing, not just the men. THANK YOU, COKIE!! She said:

"The men couldn’t have done it without the women." “The women made the men behave.” “They did – with great hardship, courage, pluck, prayerfulness, sadness, joy, energy, and humor – what women do. They put one foot in front of the other in remarkable circumstances. They carried on. They truly are our Founding Mothers.”

Jean: I've said it before - I want to sign up for your course!!

Wasn't Eliza Lucas Pinckney fabulous! Imagine. All the amazing things she did. I noted down a few of them:

– at 16 was in charge of 3 plantations; oversaw planting and harvesting & experimented with crops;

- schooled in London & then further educated self, read Latin;

- planted a forest of oak having the vision of selling the wood in the future for use in building ships;

- figured out how to grow indigo & got others in the area to grow it, also, so it turned into an industry; they didn’t just have one crop system; became source of wealth;

- Charles Pinckney proposed to her “a few months after his wife died.” Hmmmmmm????

- Figured out how to grow silk worms and made silk

- Widowed at 36 when husband died of malaria back in America; then handled everything herself;

- Ran a smallpox hospital and gave inoculations; taught her slaves to read and write

Wow!

Marni

Aaaggghhh!!! It's 12:30! I'm off to bed.

These posts are wonderful. Mippy and Marni thank you for all the links too. I haven't begun to finish looking at each one.

Mabel, I would love to take a course on women's studies too. Without understanding women's struggles it is impossible to appreciate one another fully as women.

I love learning about the women like Eliza Pinckney. My, did she have a head on her shoulders. Was it indigo she produced as a crop? No one would go along with her. She had success too.

It is painful that Ben Franklin such an inventive and progressive man could not see the importance of educating his daughter. His sons, he felt, must have an education.

"Though Franklin had proudly reported his daughter's achievements to his mother when she was small, he never provided her with the same education he did his son and, later, his grandsons."

I love reading about the achievements of these women. Their mighty minds have been silenced too long. Everyone should know what they achieved in such hard times in history.

Marni, I read your post. I see you have already mentioned the Indigo raised by Eliza Pinckney.

Reading the words of these women in letters and journals gives a feeling like you are hearing their voices. What a treasure to have these written words from the past. I am grateful Cokie Roberts wrote this book and shared the letters and diaries with us.

My mother kept my father's love letters in a buffet drawer. The bundle tied with ribbon. Sadly, I don't know what happened to those letters. My father's spelling was not the best. Still, he got his point across. He loved my mother.

My mother wrote letters constantly. She had a beautiful penmanship. She didn't write notes. She wrote long letters. Sadly, the letters have disappeared. In a poetry book she gave me, she signed her name. Her signature is just beautiful. I keep the poetry book and look at her name often. It's like I still have some part of her.

I have always tried to write a journal. I have never been completely successful. I will write for a few days. Then, stop and not write again. During this discussion I am coming to see the importance of writing letters and journals.

Remember the diaries sold in Woolworths? The diary would have a gold lock and a key hanging by a ribbon. I always bought a five year one. I never had whatever it takes to stick with it and fill the whole diary. I had a friend named Carolyn. She kept her diary diligently. I wanted to be just like her.

Isn't that a powerfully true statement!! This book and even moreso the posts are reminding me that I belong to a truly remarkable community!

Alliemae

What a delicious memory! Love it!! I had them too but sadly was not too faithful in keeping them up.

Alliemae

Alliemae,

I could never keep one up either.

Hats: That is a beautiful story about your father's love letters to your mother and about your poetry book with your mother's signature that reminds you of her.

I've never been able to deep a journal or diary either. My mother still does to this day.

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There are a number of things I found quite shocking about Ben Franklin, but he was definitely not alone in the way he educated his son but not his daughters. Nearly all of the American women we read about had limited official schooling, although several families allowed their daughters to listen to the tutors teaching the sons in their homesl. Some of the daughters continued on to educate themselves. Like Eliza Lucas Pinckney. She spent years going through the library at Charles Pinckney's house and she taught herself Latin amongst many other things.

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Hats: You mentioned indigo. "Was it indigo she produced as a crop? No one would go along with her." Do you know about indigo?

One of the "Worst Jobs in History" segments on TV was about dying clothes with indigo. Indigo dye was supposed to be one of the most horrible-smelling things in the world. But after the dye took, something about the process stopped the bad smell. I'm going to have to look up indigo. I'll be back.....

I found a really interesting article about indigo history and how it is made by Dr. Gary Noel Ross.

Here is some of the info:

"But just what is indigo? In common usage, the word refers originally to a blue dye obtained from a leguminous (pea family) plant of the same name.

Considered the oldest and most durable of dyes, indigo is often labeled the "King of Dyestuffs." Its method of production can be found in ancient Indian Sanskrit. Many mummies from Egyptian and Incan tombs are wrapped in indigo-dyed cloth, and the earliest Persian rug dated from the 5th century B.C. contains authenticated hues from indigo.

In powdered or paste form, indigo has been used as a paint, a cosmetic (eye shadow), and an astringent for cleaning wounds and ulcers. So highly prized was the dye that its true nature was a carefully guarded secret for thousands of years. Even as late as 1705, some dyers believed indigo to be a mined mineral....

Other chroniclers of the time reported that indigo developed a bad reputation because it produced a rust on neighboring wheat crops and because the method of dye production killed most of the laborers.

Plantation production ceased about 1806, although limited plantings to satisfy personal use continued for some time afterward. The dye eventually received a decisive blow in 1878 when a laboratory-concocted chemical alternative was prepared in Europe."

Here's the whole article. Click on the pictures to enlarge. They're good!

http://www.leeric.lsu.edu/le/special/indigo.htm

Marni

Oh, that's a lot of information. I know nothing about indigo.

Marni, I hope your father's condition improves each day.

"The word Indigo is derived from the Greek Indikon and the Latin Indicum, meaning a substance from India."

"...blue denim cloth, whether in jeans or skirts, is dyed with [synthetic] indigo."

"It is believed that the term "blue collar" worker is derived from the indigo workers, who used to wear the cheap blue cloth. The less charitable say the workers used to be blue all over!"

"In the 19th century, Bengal was the world's biggest producer of indigo in the world! An Englishman in the Bengal Civil Service is said to have commented, "Not a chest of indigo reached England without being stained with human blood". Indigo was part of the national movement. Champaran in Bihar witnessed indigo riots in 1868. In 1917 Gandhiji himself launched an enquiry into the exploitation of indigo workers."

"There is also a belief in India that working on an indigo extraction unit makes a woman sterile. Hence, only men used to undertake this job."

"Indigo has outlasted the travails of history because it is one of the most "colourfast" natural dyes. The blue remains beautiful, even if it fades. The range of colours based on indigo is extensive. Even among natural dyes, indigo has special qualities. It does not need a mordant to make it fast. It is compatible with all types of natural fibre."

http://www.chennaionline.com/artscene/craftpalace/history/indigo.asp

I wonder if the beautiful blue and white bedspread made in 1802 that my husband inherited was made with indigo. I bet it was. The blue is still vibrant.

Marni

Hats: Thank you so much for your kind thoughts. My dad is not doing well. He went into a nursing home recently due to a fall when he broke 3 ribs. In the nursing home he fell and hurt his ankle. Now they think he has pneumonia. It's so hard seeing parents getting old and frail. Some lose their parents when they are young. My parents have been fortunate to live long lives. But it's tough when the quality of life is gone and they go from one accident or illness to another. I just feel so sorry for him. And my mom is losing her memory and is so worried.

I used my iPod to cheer my dad up! He was a captain in the navy during WWII. He loves to sing and loves sea/navy songs. I loaded a bunch of sea shanties onto my iPod, plus the US Marine Corps Band playing "Anchors Away" plus "Eternal Fathers," the Navy Hymn. I bought a cheap tiny iPod speaker set and was able to play aloud the music for him. Right away, despite his breathing trouble, my dad started singing along! I joined in and I think he was cheered up a bit.

Sorry to go on about this.....

Marni

We were introduced to some very talented women writers in chapters 1 and 2, women who wrote histories, poetry, plays, newspaper articles, etc.

Here are actual works from several of the authors:

Mercy Warren’s play The Group: http://www.samizdat.com/warren/group.html

"An Invitation Ode to a Young Lady in New York From Her Friend in the Country," poem by Annis Boudinot Stockton, New Brunswick, 1753: http://www.scc.rutgers.edu/njwomenshistory/Period_1/stockton2002b.htm

Phyllis Wheatley poems (To read any Phyllis Wheatley poem, right-click on the title of the poem): http://www.poemhunter.com/phillis-wheatley/poet-3107/

Marni

"Women had a place in commercial life. Those who reached their majority and were not married could own property, buy and sell, sue and be sued, represent themselves in court, make contracts and perform other routine commercial and legal functions...In short, they had all the rights of men. They did not have the privileges of voting or holding public office..."

During the 18th century, Williamsburg had six millinery shops, all run by women. Margaret Hunter, one of the milliners, apparently came to Williamsburg in 1767. "That same year, her sister, Jane, leased a building to use as a millinery shop. Margaret worked in the millinery business in England prior to coming to America. Margaret seems to have worked with her sister until 1771 when she advertised her own shop. She apparently was still in business during 1780, the year she ran her last advertisement. We know nothing more about her except that she died in 1787."

http://www.history.org/history/clothing/milliner/millinershop5.cfm

Marni,

I bet those songs really cheered your dad up. Don't worry about going on, your parents are a part of you. When they hurt, you hurt. Now I'm going on.

Oh, you have posted some interesting information about women writers. Recently, at my library, I happened to see a biography of Anne Bradstreet. I would love to read about her. Well, I am going to look at the links. Thank you for working so hard with all that is going on.

I love the way Cokie Roberts includes wit and humor in this book. She gives us both the wit of the women in their comments and her own wit in her asides.....My students will love reading this. It's not so "dry" as some of the "academic" treatises.

My perception of Eliza's writings is that much of it is said w/ some jest, do you all agree, or not? I think it's impressive how many women WERE literate considering that most people tho't like BF and didn't send them to school, or at least no for very long.

Marni - it is sad and stressful when we see our parents feeling badly. So many of us are in the "sandwich" generation, caring for both parents and children. Isn't it interesting how we stay optomistic thinking - "when I get this kid out of /highschool/college/a job/married, etc, then i won't have to worry so much and have less stress........yeah, right!!! Take care of yourself also, hope your Dad and Mom will have better days ahead. BTW i noticed you are also a late-nighter, we were both posting at midnight last night......jean

Your dad and all of you are in my most positive thoughts...sending healing vibes into the Universe...IOW, you are all in my prayers.

What a wonderful idea about the iPod and the music. When my dad was in an Assisted Living home I gave him a cassette player with some of his favorite music. Those little things mean A LOT! You're a good and thoughtful daughter.

Love, Alliemae

Thank you so much for all of your kind thoughts. It's just so wonderful having such nice people to converse with!

Jean: Will you be recommending Founding Mothers to your students? Would it be for extra credit?

Roberts does have a wonderful, rather wry, sense of humor - a little sarcasm here and there is required with some of the stories she has to tell. And as the book goes on, it only gets better. I get such a chuckle out of some of the anecdotes she has chosen.

Speaking of literate....I wonder why the French ladies of the period had a better education than the American ladies? I think both Franklin and Adams mentioned something about it. It sounds as though the French aristocratic women were very well educated and encouraged to express their ideas. Why do you think their culture was different?

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Hats: I love your idea about reading about Anne Bradstreet. I don't know anything about her. If you find a good book, will you please let us know?

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Alliemae: Those iPods are neat little things. It was great just being able to load on some songs from the internet without having to burn a CD. I just read in the paper yesterday that Apple is coming out with a whole stereo system for iPods. I knew already that they had linked up with Bose and Bose is selling a stereo system for iPods.

Marni

--- his Wife Deborah with John James Audubon’s concern for his wife Lucy. In 1765 when Ben departed for his last, 9-year trip to London leaving Deborah in Philadelphia, Deborah learned of his safe arrival in London not by a letter from him, but from other Philadelphians who had received letters. In marked contrast Audubon wrote Lucy virtually every day after his arrival in Liverpool in 1826. True Ben pleaded for her to accompany him and she had adamantly refused and there were certainly letters exchanged between them. In Bens defense perhaps he wrote Deborah upon his arrival and the letter was lost.

None the less, Ben seems not to have spent any great time pining for his absent spouse as Audubon certainly did. Rather Ben seems to have set up a replicate London Household with his Landlady, Margaret Stevenson and her daughter Polly the European version of his American family. Deborah and Sally. While Franklins biographer’s research has always fallen short of proof of infidelity, the arrangement certainly gives the appearance. And finally, Ben learned of Deborah’s death by letter.

Back in the 1930, I remember it was customary for women to add a few drops of a liquid they called “bluing” to rinse water used for washing white clothing either by hand in tubs or in the early wringer washing Machines. It was supposed to give whites a bright white appearance. Do you suppose this was made from the indigo plant. Indigo of course is another word for a deep blue color. I don’t thing bluing is sold in the stores today . At least I don’t remember seeing it.

And Marni I too am sorry the hear of your fathers ill condition. He must have had quite a WW II career. I bet he really enjoyed the old navy songs. We wish him the very best.

MARNI: what a good daughter you are: your father is lucky. I hold him and your mother in my thoughts and prayers.

I got home late last night from California to be greeted by a real treasure of posts. The links are wonderful -- Marni, you always seem to find the best! had trouble getting Wheatley's poems, but I'll try again. Deborah Franklin looks just as I would have imagined her -- the kind of solid, practical woman who takes care of everything around her. Franklin was indeed lucky to have found her -- luckier than she was in finding him!

I also had one of the Woolworth 5 year diaries when I was 8 or 10. And like the rest of you, didn't keep it up. One of the last entries says "My sister says I cannot spell. I am very hert" (h-e-r-t). Sigh, I still can't spell.

In cleaning out my parents' house after they passed away, I found letters that they had written to each other when they were courting. They are a real treasure to me. My father wanted mother to marry him, but she didn't want to "dwindle away into a housewife". She finally agreed on condition that she would never have to darn his socks!! (Indeed, she continued to work as a librarian for many years after their marriage).

To the questions. Did women then use birth control? I don't remember any mention of it. I'd be willing to bet there were some folk methods in use -- whether they were effective or not.

I remember talking to a Moroccan woman who was nursing her two-year old. She said her friends nursed their babies as long as they could because it gave some protection against getting pregnant again.

As it was, many of these founding mothers saw their husbands just often enough to be always pregnant. By the time the baby was born, the father was gone.

One sad thing this book really brought home to me -- the high child mortality rate. There were very few of these women and their husbands who did not lose a child at some point. If I ever feel I would like to have lived in some other time, I will remember that.

Harold: Thank you for your kind thoughts. Re "Ben seems to have set up a replicate London Household with his Landlady, Margaret Stevenson and her daughter Polly the European version of his American family." What a great comparison! I never even thought of that! He did replicate his home life in London. That fits right in with his requests to Deborah to send him American foods he liked from home. I wonder if he took air baths when he lived in America - in the first floor window!!??

I enjoyed your comparison of Ben/Deborah to John James/Lucy. Both men spent years abroad without their wives. But some of Audubon's letters of how he missed his wife were heartwrenching. They really loved each other.

Ben and Deborah's story was very sad. Ben asked Deborah to marry him when he was just a teenager, I believe, when he was renting in her mother's house. Kids in love. Her mother told them to wait til he returned from his first trip to England. Deborah married someone else while he was gone; her husband took off not to be seen again; and she was stuck. No one would marry her. Finally, Ben did - a common law marriage.

I wonder how he felt about her then? Did he just feel obliged? Was he angry she hadn't waited for him? Apparently, he had discovered other women. He had his illegitimate son, William, with another woman - the son whom Deborah raised. Ben and Deborah seemed so different. I guess sometimes people just grow apart.

I wonder why Deborah never went to England? I think I read somewhere that she got seasick. But it seems there must be more to it than that. Maybe she thought he didn't love her. Maybe she didn't love him. Maybe she just didn't want to leave her home. Ben certainly wanted to stay in England until he was basically forced to leave.

Maybe Deborah liked being in charge of business? She apparently was good at it! She had worked in her mother's "sundry" shop and she had worked in Ben's print shop. Per Cokie, she had "kept the books & managed finances, invested in real estate, expanded the business into franchises along coast, plus ran a 'salon' when husband became famous, ran the postal system when husband was in London (Ben was post-master general even when abroad)." Deborah faced down mob that stormed house after Stamp Act took effect 1767 and people were angry with Ben. She was a gutsy lady.

Wasn't that horrible that Deborah's mother died in a kitchen fire!? Weeks ago I warned our JoanK to be careful making our cocoa that she didn't get too close to the fire. I learned at Mystic Seaport that the leading cause of women's death in colonial times, after death in childbirth, was death by catching on fire in the kitchen. Awful!

Marni

Wow, after that mouthful, I have to help myself to another glass of madeira!

JoanK: Thank you for your kind words and prayers. Your stories about your journal and your parents love letters are the sweetest things I've heard in a long time. "My sister says I cannot spell. I am very hert" (h-e-r-t). SO SWEET!!! And your mother agreeing to marry your dad if she doesn't have to darn his socks!!!!! I love it!!!

Gosh, remember darning socks? I learned how to do it in Girl Scouts, but never darned a sock in my life. I am totally a member of a throw-away generation.

-----------------------

Harold: I remember my grandmother using bluing in her wash - the same grandmother who ironed the underwear. She also used it in her hair! I wonder if it was the same kind?? We still use bluing in the hair today, but it comes in a plastic bottle. I use it so the frosted blond in my hair doesn't turn reddish. It's very dark vivid blue that I wash into my hair and rinse out. I wonder if it's from synthetic indigo?

Marni

Certainly he was looking for a mother for William, but was he already aware of what a good businesswoman DF was? He was very focused on being wealthy and retiring early. He states that in his autobio. Of course, DF provided all the usual "wife" benefits and we know that men did not consider it their job to wash or mend even their own clothing. So, BF could do all his business and civic tasks and be well cared for by DF. I see it much more that kind of relationship on his part. DF sounds like she had affection for him. I can see why, he was obviously an interesting and charming man...BTW, BF would join us in a glass of madeira, I understand it was a favority of his.

I think you may have hit on why DF didn't want to go to England - she was an independent businesswoman running her own life here in the colonies. Remember, as a married woman - and she would have been considered one in England - she would have no rights, she did not exist as a legal enity, but here, there may have been people who knew they were not married, and the law - for at least seven years - would not have considered them married AND she was sans husband so she could act "not married" - i mean in a business, legal sense, but could "be married" when it was beneficial to invoke BF's name......she sounds like a very strong, smart woman to me.....

apparently that adage that "you won't get pregnant while you're nursing" didn't work very well for Sarah Edwards!!! even tho Jonathan was supposedly away a lot - 10,11 children?......jean

JoanK: I had trouble with the Phyllis Wheatley links also. Finally I found a little note that said to right click on the title of the poem you wish to read. (I checked the box first.) It worked for me.

Birth Control

Ha! I was hoping someone would bring that question up. I just was so astounded to read again and again and again about the women getting pregnant - constantly - except for George and Martha Washington. It seems that George was sterile. So many women had over 10 children. Cokie said they averaged a child every 2 years until their child-bearing years were over - unless they died first.

This subject is very important to me because I had big problems in childbirth - Danny weighed nearly 11 pounds when born and was too big to come out. I know that I would have been one of the women who died in childbirth in colonial times. I get upset when I read the stories of the women who died in childbirth because I vividly picture and feel what they must have gone through before they died.

I did not find one single thing about birth control in Founding Mothers. I thought I would. They must have talked about it a lot. I know they had developed condoms centuries earlier. Birth control of one kind or another had been used by women for thousands of years. 18th-century men used condoms for protection from venereal disease, but apparently they did not use them to prevent pregnancy.

When I was young I heard how breast-feeding prevents women from getting pregnant for quite awhile. I think I read somewhere in Founding Mothers that women started breast-feeding for longer periods in the 19th-century to prevent pregnancy - they were educated about it. It seems that many women in the 18th century often used wet-nurses to feed their babies.

It was a matter of family survival to have plenty of children since so many died tragically of disease etc. Many many of the Founding Mothers lost children. It seemed to be just a matter of ordinary life. But, even so, the loss must have been so unbearable. However, many of the women did have families of 10 and more children who lived and that they had to raise along with all of the other tasks of a woman's life. The women certainly depended on each other and on the older children to manage.

Oh, my wine is gone and I've talked my head off. I'm going to bed!

Marni

Hi, Jean! I was so interested when I read your post that I poured another glass of wine! Re: "as a married woman - and she would have been considered one in England - she would have no rights, she did not exist as a legal enity, but here, there may have been people who knew they were not married, and the law - for at least seven years - would not have considered them married AND she was sans husband so she could act "not married"...

Hmmmmm....I was thinking that they were, as common-law man and wife, legally married since their arrangement had lasted so long. I wonder when that law went into effect? When you say "for at least seven years" are you referring to when a law about this was passed or about them having to have the common-law arrangement for seven years?

How long had Ben and Deborah been married when he took off for years to England? I was thinking it had been many years, but I can't remember.

Marni

Now that I think about it.....I wonder how long a man had to be missing to be considered dead - as in Deborah 1st husband? Was it seven years back then? I don't even know what it is today?

One quick thought/wonder about Deborah Franklin. I find it peculiar that she was, I can't think of other words for it - in fear of Ben? She was so strong, but hesitated to make decisions about the building of the house for fear that Ben wouldn't like them? She certainly didn't want to displease him, yet stood up to others.

My best for your parents, Marnie. How far away from them are you? That has to make it hard if you have to travel a distance. An IPod - another invention that would astound our colonial sisters.

Must be off to bed as it's way after midnight!

I noticed that very few of the wives whose husbands went abroad accompanied them. It seemed to be the general point of view that the voyage was too hard and dangerous for them. While away, I was reading in the biography of John Adams, and even the loving and strong Abagail didn't accompany John to Europe at first, but had no hesitation sending 10 year old John Quincy with him.

The accounts given of John's trips certainly show how dangerous these passages were. It's amazing that none of our founding fathers were lost at sea.

Hi, Marylin! Thanks for your kind words to my parents. I drive from Windsor to New London/Groton and back - about 2 hours and 20 minutes round trip. Not too bad, but it's a ways.

Wasn't that so irritating that Ben sent those very specific instructions of exactly how something was to be designed or decorated after all Deb was doing at home. Sheesh! The guy had an ego! But I guess it worked for our benefit, after all!

-------------------

Now I truly have to go to bed to continue my Lincoln night reading for awhile. I've just gotten to the terribly sad part - speaking of children dying young - about Lincoln's son Willie dying.

Gosh, I just found words on the internet describing the exact same scene - an online book called BEHIND THE SCENES BY ELIZABETH KECKLEY, FORMERLY A SLAVE, BUT MORE RECENTLY MODISTE, AND FRIEND TO MRS. ABRAHAM LINCOLN. OR, THIRTY YEARS A SLAVE, AND FOUR YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

NEW YORK: G.W.Carleton & Co., Publishers. M DOCC LXVIII.

"Mr. Lincoln came in. I never saw a man so bowed down with grief. He came to the bed, lifted the cover from the face of his child, gazed at it long and earnestly, murmuring, "My poor boy, he was too good for this earth. God has called him home. I know that he is much better off in heaven, but then we loved him so. It is hard, hard to have him die!"

Great sobs choked his utterance. He buried his head in his hands, and his tall frame was convulsed with emotion. I stood at the foot of the bed, my eyes full of tears, looking at the man in silent, awe-stricken wonder. His grief unnerved him, and made him a weak, passive child. I did not dream that his rugged nature could be so moved. I shall never forget those solemn moments--genius and greatness weeping over love's idol lost.

Mrs. Lincoln's grief was inconsolable. The pale face of her dead boy threw her into convulsions. Around him love's tendrils had been twined, and now that he was dressed for the tomb, it was like tearing the tendrils out of the heart by their roots. Willie, she often said, if spared by Providence, would be the hope and stay of her old age. But Providence had not spared him. The light faded from his eyes, and the death-dew had gathered on his brow.

In one of her paroxysms of grief the President kindly bent over his wife, took her by the arm, and gently led her to the windows. With a stately, solemn gesture, he pointed to the lunatic asylum.

"Mother, do you see that large white building on the hill yonder? Try and control your grief, or it will drive you mad, and we may have to send you there."

http://digilib.nypl.org/dynaweb/digs/wwm9713/@Generic__BookTextView/67;pt=70

That reminds me - quite a number of the Phillis Wheatley poems were about deaths of children, as in:

"A Funeral Poem On The Death Of C. E. An Infant Of Twelve Months"

http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=3107&poem=15440

"On The Death Of A Young Lady Of Five Years Of Age"

"On the Death of J.C. an Infant"

"To A Gentleman And Lady On The Death Of The Lady's Brother And Sister, And A Child Of The Name Of Avis, Aged One Year"

"To the Honourable T.H. Esq on the Death of His Daughter"

Well, on that pleasant note, I'm off!

Marni

7 years as the understanding of committment for a common-law marriage, but i just googled it and that is a myth. Most states in the U.S. have today outlawed common-law marriages, altho those already in existence are grand-fathered. Basically a couple only needs to commit to living together and being considered to society as husband and wife. Here's a link http://www.unmarried.org/common.html. I'm sorry the right clicker on my mouse is not working as of a few days ago, so i can't cut and paste it for you, first errand tomorrow is to get a new mouse.....LOL........

At Franklin Court in PHila you can see inscriptions of his letters telling DF how to build, decorate and supply the house, including the kinds of glasses, dishes, pots and pans and silver to buy. He was also buying much of that in Europe and was sending it to her. He tells her exactly how to design the house. Maybe he wasn't always so charming after all.......that aspect of him sounds like it could be very annoying and yes, the is something about him that DF seems to fear. Is she just eager to please, or is there something stronger? I've wondered about that ever since i read some of her letters at F Crt. It's a very interesting museum to visit on Market ST in PHila.....jean

Marni and Mabel, thank you for all this good information.

I will definitely check out the book "THIRTY YEARS A SLAVE, AND FOUR YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE."

I am so in awe of the quality of these postings and the information I'm gathering here. The tone and the feelings of involvement being transmitted are truly as interesting as the book itself and, might I add, would make a good book on their own.

I don't think these comments and discoveries should be lost and I wish there could be a way that these could be shared not only in this discussion but with other readers of this book.

Just an idea I've been having. Don't know if it makes sense to any others of you or if any of you feel the same way.

I really think these are too valuable not to be shared, maybe even with the author.

Alliemae

...so why am I not posting more about this wonderful book?

I am not a critical reader (as in 'critic' not 'being critical'); what I mean to say is that I am not particularly analytical in my reading and sort of just breeze through a book enjoying what I enjoy. But I also miss a lot that way.

I think this is why I am so happy I have found book discussions like these; they open my eyes to the 'bigger book' and allow me to appreciate so much more of the book.

Alliemae

Alliemae, your posts are great. I always learn a lot from your posts.

I have been thinking of Mercy Warren Otis. She had five children. It's amazing nothing deterred her from writing and raising her family at the same time. Mercy also, while writing about the coming revolution, also continued her friendship with Abigail Adams.

These women were so much busier than we are today. Yet, they were able to be mothers, in-laws and friends. So often, I think, in our busy world, we think, there isn't time to call a friend or visit a neighbor. What's the difference between our world and their world? What's the difference between ourselves and these women?

I also think Mercy Warren Otis had to deal with her brother's brutal beating by a Loyalist.

I am so glad Cokie Roberts wrote this book. She should have won a writing prize for this book. Maybe she did and I missed that fact.

"The women might be filling new roles, but the old ones took precedence."

Marni - the passage about the Lincolns' grief at the death of their son was chilling. Even though the death of a child back then was much more common, it was no less hurtful. Interesting that Lincoln told his wife about her grief driving her mad - didn't she eventually become insane?

Came upon an interesting bit of statistics in our local paper last night in an article about March being National Womens History Month.
Regarding the present state of education for women: Percent of women (ages 25 to 29) who had attained a bachelor's degree or higher in 2004 - 31 (for men 26)
Number of women age 25 and older with a bachelor's degree or more in 2004 - 25.4 million (more than double the number 20 years prior)
Projected number of bachelor's degrees which will be awarded to women in the 2005-06 school year - 845,000
Master's degrees projected to be earned by women during this period - 350,000
Remember the old cigarette slogan: We've come a long way baby?

Marylin,

I feel the same way. No matter the number children loss the pain, I can imagine, is heartwrenching.

Thank you for the statistics. I thought of the same slogan while reading this book. "We've come a long way, baby."

Jean: Thanks for the interesting info about common law marriage.

Re: Cut and Paste with Mouse: You can do some commands without your mouse right clicker. You can COPY and PASTE using your keyboard, if this will help you til your mouse works.

To COPY: Highlight what you want to copy. Hold down the Control (Ctrl) Key and press the letter "c"

To PASTE: Click on the spot where you want to paste. Hold down the Control (Ctrl) Key and press the letter "v"

I know there are plenty more commands like these, but these two I use all the time.

You can also cut, copy and paste using your Edit button in the top Menu bar.

Marni

Alliemae: I think some book discussion call for careful critical examinations of the writing style and of the story. I think there is a difference in book club discussions between fiction and non-fiction. In my limited experience, it seems that with non-fiction, a key importance is the historical content chosen and the writing style used to relate it. Is it presented in an interesting manner - dry and boring.....fun and exciting? Is the material accurate? Is it the same thing we've heard many times before, or is it fresh or unusual?

It seems to me that some non-fiction authors are more readable than others - like David McCullough and Cokie Roberts, for example. It's almost as if they are telling a story rather than citing facts.

So for our discussion don't worry about carefully analyzing Roberts' writing style. Just enjoy the stories!

Hats: You brought up something very important: "These women were so much busier than we are today. Yet, they were able to be mothers, in-laws and friends. So often, I think, in our busy world, we think, there isn't time to call a friend or visit a neighbor. What's the difference between our world and their world?"

I've been thinking about that a lot.....

I think colonial women were busy in a different way than modern women. They had hard physical daily tasks to tend to just to take care of home and family. They had to spend more time meeting basic human needs for food and shelter - farming and hunting for food, building homes, preparing and cooking food, washing and cleaning, giving birth and raising and educating many children, preparing and burying the dead, supporting multiple generations. However, they helped each other and sometimes hired help. Some had servants and some had slaves. Mothers helped daughters and vice versa.

Modern women have modern technology that has made many tasks easier and faster to do, such as dishwashers, home heating systems, electricity...We don't have to spend so much time meeting basic human needs. However, the modern world has its own demands on people's time. Speed has created increases in some labor requirements. New technology creates increased expectations that must be met with labor.

Many women work outside of the home today for long hours as well as inside the home. Many women juggle different roles - homemaker, mother, family support. Women have a more equal role today legally and many of us seek to handle all of these roles. But I think some of this has created some isolation.

I do think we have much more leisure time today. Some use more leisure time than others. But many of us spend hours daily watching tv, reading newspapers and books, visiting, etc. And think of the hours we use getting educated compared to most women in the past. Look at Marylin's statistics! Most of us raise fewer children and we don't have to worry as much about the diseases that commonly used to kill children. But then there aren't as many daughters to help out in the kitchen. Generations live apart from each other and may not help each other as much.

What do you think?

Marni

Marni, we are busy. I suppose the way in which we are busy has changed. Many women work outside the home. I worked outside the home for a long time. Then, I had to come home and cook for a family at the end of the day and do other chores. Thankfully, my husband helped. In no way did we have a moment to waste. Some chores did not get done until the weekend.

The women in the future will look back at the women of the twenty-first century and find some of us just as admirable as the women in Colonial times. Even now I admire and wonder at women who find the time to conquer changing technology. The world is moving so fast. Sometimes I can not catch on or keep up.

We have so many benefits. Our relatives live longer. There are illnesses which are treatable. At the same time, these wonders of medical science lead to less personal time. We have to care for our relatives who are living longer, know the ins and outs of nursing home care and pray that the 401K does not cave in .

Some parents now are treating Austistic children at home. Some wives or husbands are treating Alzheimer patients at home. Because people lived shorter life spans in Colonial times, I think, their life stresses were different.

Each century will look different from the other and appear more progressive. Each time period will also bring its own set of work issues be those issues in the home or in the workplace.

Well, history books and sociology book won't run out of material and these avenues of study won't bore people because the world will keep on changing.

We have more hours in a day than did the colonial women. I should say more 'useable' hours'. I think nothing of staying up 6 hours past sunset just keeping the electric lights on and doing what I want to do. Nor do I feel the need to go to bed at 8 or 9 pm, not having chopped and hauled wood, carried water, tended farm animals used for food and drink, hand washing clothes, etc. Perhaps our Founding Mothers had servants or slaves to do these tasks, but I think it would be a safe bet to say that even so their lives were much more physically demanding than is ours today.

We are more independent with our labor saving machines. They were dependent upon each other and socialized their needs with activities such as quilting bees. Many could not read and, of course, had no television or computers, so socialized with one another for exchange of ideas. Like you, Hats, I wonder what it will be like 200 yrs. hence.

I wasn't really seeking reassurance about my posting although I do thank you Hats and Marni for your thoughtful words!

The important portion of my post #289 (to me) was this part:

"I don't think these comments and discoveries should be lost and I wish there could be a way that these could be shared not only in this discussion but with other readers of this book....

I really think these are too valuable not to be shared, maybe even with the author."

Alliemae

Click Here for more information on “"THIRTY YEARS A SLAVE, AND FOUR YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE" from the publisher in the B&N catalog. Reading this morning's comment caught my eye since at The Institute Of Texan Cultures we have material about an earlier slave who lived in the White House during the Andrew Jackson Administration. Later she and her family after 1860 Lived in Texas. I’ll see tomorrow if I can get some additional Information and perhaps a picture on this display. The person in the above-cited book appears to be different having come later during the Lincoln Administration.

Harold,

Thank you very much for the clickable. I have a great interest in reading this book.

And another comment on Deborah Franklin as a Business Administrator is that we should never underestimate the magnitude of her task. Remember Franklin was in effect the Royal Colonial Postmaster. As I understand it particularly from our Cokie Robert’s book, Deborah effectively managed this operation during her husband’s absence. That would be quite a task for anyone, man or woman.

Finally there was comment this morning on how many separate extended trips Franklin made to England during his lifetime. From Memory, I remember three. The first was when as a teenager about 1720 who had just completed a shortened apprentice training as a printer, he was sent to England by a rather flaky Colonial Governor to buy printing equipment. When he arrived his promised letter of Credit to finance his mission did not arrive. But how easily Franklin as the Englishman that he was, melded into English Society. His Philadelphia credentials as a journeyman printer enabled him to quickly find employment in a print shop; his ability and great work ethic quickly brought him a good salary on which he live a year or more as an ordinary Englishman.

It was th late 1750’s when he again went to England, this time to lobby for changes in the Proprietary Grant to the Penn Family ruling the Pennsylvania Colony. In a few years he successfully completer this mission and returned to Philadelphia. His final 3rd journey to England came in 1765. It was during this extended 9 year visit the he lobbied for colonial home rule, a mission that ended in 1774 in failure. At that point he returned to America a dedicate revolutionary. His later missions to Europe were to France where he was instrumental in obtaining a French Alliance with material and military aid without which it is difficult to imagine the successful conclusion of the Revolution.

For more on pre 20th century birth control, specifically condoms, Click Here. I remember Boswell’s London Journal mentions one of these early devices use by him for the prevention of disease

Interesting link on birth control. I know that in the turn of the last century in New York, the nurse Margeret Sanger had to risk imprisonment to get condoms to her patients who were dying from childbirth. Giving contraceptives was illegal under the Comstock Act of 1873.

MARGARET SANGER

Women busy then and busy now: I once read a very interesting book on housework in Colonial times. Unfortunately, I'm having a Senior moment, and can't remember its name or author. It pointed out that everything done required the cooperation of the whole family. For example, making stew for dinner meant that someone had chopped the wood for the fire, got te fire going, tended it. Someone had raised the animal used for meat, butchered it, preserved the meat, raised the vegetables, carried the water from the well etc. It took everyone in the family who was able to work to get that stew made. No one lived alone or worked alone, but with the help of family members or people brought from outside.

Today, if I want to have a microwave stew dinner (ugh) I can easily make and serve it by myself. I am just as dependent on other people -- even more people: those who grew the ingredients, processed them, made the stew, froze it shipped it etc. -- a whole army of people. But these are impersonal long -distance relationships of which I am completely unaware.

Similarly, I can get my news from TV, newspapers, the Web. I'm not dependent on other women for news, for learning how to cope with a new situation, for new recipes, help caring for the sick etc.

I can live "alone" and my personal relationships become something extra, for which I may think I don't have time -- not a necessary part of life.

An example: I once helped in a survey of women's experiences with menopause. One question we asked was "Where did you learn what to expect from menopause". Almost everyone answered either from printed material or from a doctor. Only two (if I remember correctly) said from their mother or a woman friend. I'll bet the percentages would have been reversed in colonial times.

What a lot of posts since I was last here! This is wonderful!

Hats: Re "Each century will look different from the other and appear more progressive." It certainly seems that new generations learn from the prior, make their own contributions to progress, and things move forward more and more rapidly. I agree with you that "The world is moving so fast. Sometimes I can not catch on or keep up." I hope we continue to move forward.

War is one of the critical things where man continues to make technological innovations. Our Founding Mothers are facing Revolution in this segment of the book and they have recently been through the French and Indian War. Some of them live on the edge of civilization, such as those in Albany, NY, and face ongoing dangers from native tribes. Today we have developed war weapons to the point where one or two countries can destroy the entire world. But, no matter how war is fought, women are the mothers and daughters of the men (and some women) who fight and die. Women struggle to hold things together at home whether war is fought on home turf or in a foreign country.

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Marylin: Boy, you said it when you wrote "their lives were much more physically demanding than is ours today." Has anyone seen the tv program - a British show - where a number of families are living like people did in the Middle Ages - as an experiment?? I cannot remember the name of the show and have seen it only once. It was fascinating. They are given some things to start with - some food is given to them - but they have to then prepare everything and live like they used to. It was interesting watching how hard it was on everyone - all the work involved. Even the show Survivor makes you think when you watch how hard it is just to make a fire!

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Alliemae: Re "I don't think these comments and discoveries should be lost and I wish there could be a way that these could be shared not only in this discussion but with other readers of this book.... I really think these are too valuable not to be shared, maybe even with the author."

I'm so delighted that you are enjoying the postings of your compadre Founding Mothers participants! It really is a wonderful discussion! The comments won't be lost because they'll be archived. I'd love it if more people shared in our discussion. Periodic notices go out to folks in SeniorNet. Do you have other ideas of how to share with other readers of the book?

Re sharing with the author....That's an interesting idea. We are not inviting her to join us in the discussion because there is too much going on just with the book discussion itself. I mentioned in the pre-discussion to some folks that it's a job in itself to coordinate a discussion with an author. I'm not prepared to do that for this discussion. However, it certainly is possible for discussion leaders who are interested to follow up on this book discussion and arrange something with Cokie Roberts after March. Maybe she could be shown our SeniorNet Founding Mothers site and read some of the comments.

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Harold: Thanks for the info about THIRTY YEARS A SLAVE. I was so startled to see the book right there on the internet. I had read quotes from the author in some books about Lincoln, but there was the entire book. I'll be interested in hearing more about what you discover about the slave who lived in an earlier time.

And thanks for the info about Franklin. Wasn't it something that he up and left his postal position leaving his wife in charge. I believe we read that Deborah expanded the service which had offices in other towns. She must have had a head on her shoulders and must have been very tough. After all she did and went through, I felt so badly when she finally gave up on her husband (which I thought she should have done long before - but I guess being Franklin's wife had its benefits.) Roberts wrote, "Eventually, old and sick and tired, Deborah had had it. She just stopped writing, telling her husband, 'Sally will write. I can't write anymore. I am your affectionate wife D. Franklin.'" - D. Franklin. That marriage was just too sad for words.

Harold: Thanks also for the history of condoms! Fascinating! I'd love to see those cave paintings!

Marni

books I've ever read. I read it in the 70's, but i'm not sure when it was published. It reported that the condom was first used in Egypt, BUT for animals! Sheepskin was used to keep the "wrong" horses from mating. Of course, people soon used them also for both birth control and vd control.

It's very interesting to me how things may been known/used/believed in one era in history and then lost to later generations. Of course, once we get to PUritanism and then to Victorianism, women were not "allowed" to know many things about their bodies and especially anything related to......sssshhhhh, sex. In the most patriarchal societies men wished to be very certain that their woman's children were the man's children, especially after, or where, property and inheritance came into play. That's why some women had to have chastity belts when their men went off for any length of time and particularly for long periods of time as in war - the Crusades, for instance.

Joan - in Wolf's book on colonial life she says that in early New England no one was allowed to live alone. That single men(mostly) or women who had no family or people to live with were assigned places by the ministers. That was a piece of social history that i was not familiar w/.

Marni - we're posting at the same time again

. Let me read what you said, I know i will enjoy it.........jean

JoanK: I just loved reading the Sanger link. I knew basically nothing about Margaret Sanger. I'd like to read a biography of her. Isn't that something to see the battle over birth control so similar to the battle over abortion. I had a number of friends in school in the 1960's who didn't believe in birth control, but it was for religious reasons. Personally, I cannot fathom it.

I also remember clearly what it was like before abortion was legal in my state. I had many a friend who arranged for an illegal abortion. And I had friends who married in high school and WERE FORCED OUT OF SCHOOL because they were pregnant. I wonder if youg women today would take a more proactive role on the abortion issue if they had any idea what it is like when abortion is actually illegal?

--------------------------------

Re "I'm not dependent on other women for news, for learning how to cope with a new situation, for new recipes, help caring for the sick etc."

You're so right. I think in many ways this is a good thing. But I also think it can make us isolated. Sometimes I think I'm in a very weird place. I retired from my job and right away lost some friendships - it's just the way it is; people are busy. One thing that has helped is talking with people about books, my favorite thing, on SeniorNet. But sometimes I look around me. I'm all alone in a room typing on my PC for hours! It's amazing how you can be alone but not be alone! We just have a new way to communicate and socialize today. And it works!

--------------------------

Learning about menopause....you are so right. It's too bad in a sense how mother/daughter relationships have changed.

You reminded me of something. I was not close with my mother as I grew up. But when my son was born, it changed our relationship. It was like for the very first time, we had something in common - bearing and raising children. It gave her something to talk with me about that didn't make her feel uncomfortable.

I remember being still in the hospitable after Danny was born. He and I had had a lot of anaesthesia and he was just sleeping for days. He wouldn't nurse. The hospital nurses were getting worried and they got me worried. I thought something was really wrong. My mother came to visit and I told her of my concern. Mom, who had been a nurse, said, "Oh, don't worry about it at all. When he's hungry, he'll eat." I took Dan home and the next day my huge baby got hungry. And everything was fine. Mom was right. I'll never forget it. She made me calm.

Women sharing experiences with each other certainly is so important in how we carry on and face difficult times.

I love reading about the mothers and daughters and daughters-in-law helping each other and sharing tasks, going back and forth between homes, sharing homes, in Founding Mothers. It certainly was a necessity of life then.

Marni

everyday of our fertile lives! It's largely because of her that we aren't having those 8 or 10 chldren that those colonial women commonly had. She's one of our brave foremothers whose name and activities we know. I love her story and it's a wonderful story for young people to know. She was jailed for her civil disobedience and she and her sister used Alice Paul's tactic of hunger-striking while in jail to get publicity and sympathy for her cause. She used publicity brilliantly. Her insistence that women had the right to know about and control their bodies and health has been beneficial to almost all of humankind........jean

Jean: Sheepskin condoms on horses! I'm not surprised, though, I must say. Breeding horses is big business.

I read that condoms used by the British in the 18th century were made of lambskin and tied with a pink ribbon! - for the woman to tie!! (I think we discussed this somewhere in another SeniorNet book discussion.) I remember reading that in an excavation of Sir Robert Dudley's (Queen Elizabeth I's lover) castle, they found lambskin condoms.

It's so fascinating to read about sexual mores in differing cultures and how things change as time passes. Amazing! I find I get so intensely irritated, though, when others want to impose their cultural or religious ideas on me. I just had a flash - Remember in Kite Runner, those of you who read it, about the Taliban stoning to death the couple buried up to their necks in the soccer field because they had had sexual relations before they were married?

And how about trundle beds!!?? Anybody know anything about them? I think it was in colonial times. Before they were married, an engaged couple slept in the same room in trundle beds and had to stay away from each other. Yikes! What was that all about!!??

Marni

There have been several very good bios of M Sanger, the most recent is "Woman of Valor: MS and the Birth Control Movement in America" by Ellen Chesler.

Thank you for the info about the computer - cut and paste, earlier in the day. I actually did know about using the edit icon, but at about 2:00 in the morning, i had completely forgotten about it. I wasn't familiar w/ the other way you suggested, I'm glad to know that one too.

Hi, Jean! We're up late together again!

I can't find anything about trundle beds or trundling in colonial times. Maybe I have the wrong word. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about???!!!

Marni

It's BUNDLING!!

I'm going to look it up!

among the Amish in Pennsylvania. I was told that they used "bundling boards" a 2x12 board stood on edge, down the center of the bed, w/ one person on each side of the board!!!!! Would that work today for any young person you know? Ha! Ha!Ha!

For some reason, AA and J Adams came to mind when you mentioned bundling boards......I don't believe i remember their sleeping in the same bed, but i do recall that because of a storm, John stayed over at the Smith's. When one had to travel on horseback or in carriage and it took a long time to go anywhere, suitors may have stayed over often. In fact, I grew up thinking that young people were never left alone for very long in times previous to mine. I think that came from my Victorian grandparents. So, I have been pleasantly surprised as i began to read stories about colonial couples who seemed to have a lot of time alone, and w/ a lot of intimacy. John and Abigail exchanged some pretty saucy comments about each other.........jean

Bundling - Def. from Wikepedia: "Bundling was the traditional practice of wrapping people together in a bed, usually as a part of courting behavior. The tradition is thought to have originated either in the Netherlands or in the British Isles and later became common in Colonial America, especially in Pennsylvania Dutch Country. The aim was to allow intimacy without sexual intercourse.

Traditionally, participants were adolescents, with a boy staying at the residence of a girl. They were given separate blankets by the girl's parents and expected to talk to one another through the night. The practice was limited to the winter and sometimes the use of a bundling board ensured that no sexual conduct would take place. More often, this rule was merely implicit, and was not always honored. In Colonial America, for instance, there are known instances of bundling causing premarital pregnancies.

The use of bundling boards allowed an expedient use of the practice of bundling in the early United States, where, in the case of a scarcity of beds, travellers were occasionally permitted to bundle with locals. This seemingly strange practice allowed extra money to be made by renting out half a bed.

As late as the 19th century, there are indications that bundling was still practiced in New England, although its popularity was waning. The court case of Graham vs. Smith, argued before Judge Edmunds in the Orange Circuit Court of New York State in 1846, concerned the seduction of a 19-year-old woman; testimony in the case established that bundling was a common practice in certain rural social circles at the time. By the 20th century, bundling as a practice seems to have died out almost everywhere, with only isolated references to it occurring in Amish Pennsylvania.

The most modern vestiges of this practice appeared in an article in the Dec. 12, 1969 issue of Time Magazine, which referred to a tongue-in-cheek effort to revive bundling by a so-called 'Society to Bring Back Bundling.'"

------------------------------

Here's an interesting article about courtship in early America:

http://www.hfac.uh.edu/gl/uscourt.htm

Marni

Well, my madeira glass is empty and I'm researched out. Time to read my Lincoln and get some sleep!

Marni

It pretty much confirmed most of what i had in my head about the matter.

I think during the latter part of the 19th century that white was not the favorite color for "ordinary" women's wedding outfits. My knowledge is that white did not become the predominate color until the 20th century. What do you all know about this?......Think about wedding pictures that you have seen.

I think young women and men should take Mary Fish' idea of writing a document that says what their ideal husband and wife should be and sign IT as their "pre-nuptial" contract!!!! Wasn't that smart of her? Didn't you like the things she put in her document?

Isn't Mercy Warren an interesting character? What CR has to say about her is intriguing. At the top of pg 49 she says it would be a mistake to consider MW as a latter-day feminist, but then goes on in that paragraph to say things that I would certainly see as similar to present day feminist thinking. I wouldn't think that CR would have fallen for the stereotype of the Phyllis Schafelys or Rush Limbaughs, but she mentions MW's handwork as tho modern feminists wouldn't approve. I am a feminist - one who believes in equality for women in all areas of life (the true definition, not the strident, man-hating person that Limbaugh portrays) and am very involved in handwork. As we've already mentioned, we today do it for different reasons, but feminists are just a much in need of being creative and productive in that area as any one who isn't a feminist. It is true that in the 70's at feminist mtgs there was a push to not have women doing craftwork while in the mtg. But it was a backlash to the idea that we HAD to always be busy/productive, that we could not just sit and enjoy our leisure time. That idea has disappeared as the recognition of it's enjoyment, self-fulfillment, calming, relaxing effect that handwork can provide.

From that first sentence on pg 49, CR goes on to talk about the equality that MW had and the things she spoke out on, THEN on pg 60 she reports that Mercy didn't want James to be too involved w/ the activities that she had encouraged!! WOW what a shock that was.

That's one of those interesting ambiguities that happen in people's psyches. I first ran into that kind of thing while reading a bio in the 70's about Dr. Josephine Baker who was one of the first women in the USA to get a medical degree. She fought long and hard to get into a medical school - only getting in to a small one in NY because the administration didn't want to have to make the decision to let or not let her in, so they turned it over to the student-body thinking they would refuse her. Instead, being teen-agers and young 20 year old boys, they tho't it would be a hoot to have a girl in their anatomy and physiology classes, etc, and voted to let her in. She was terribly harrassed, couldn't get a room in the town, etc. perservered thru it all BUT refused to go up on the stage to get her diploma. She tho't that 'would not be lady-like" so she sat in the front row and her brother went up on the stage to get the diploma!!! Isn't that ironic? How many of us have been in the forefront of change, but were then not sure how far we should push and made some seemingly contradictory decision?.......fascinating......jean

JEAN: I was just getting on to talk about Mercy Warren and her contradictions, when I saw you had beaten me to it. She wrote rousing poetry about fighting for liberty, and then didn't want her husband to take part. But later, when John Adams was sent to England, Mercy wrote to Abagail urging her to let him go. An interesting woman.

I agree with you about handwork. Some feminists in the 60s felt so constrained by the roles they were supposed to fill that they hated everything they associated with those roles. I was like that in college in the fifties. As one of only two women math majors in the school, I felt I couldn't do anything feminine, because that would label me a 'mere woman'. I hated the other woman mathematician, because she was feminine, silly, and "not serious" about math. I felt that helped the men to apply those stereotypes to me. Notice I resented the woman, not the men who were doing the stereotyping!! It took the woman's movement for me to become comfortable with all of me -- the parts labeled "feminine" and those that weren't.

Mercy Warren was one of the women Roberts focused on in the first 2 chapters. Mercy really was an interesting woman, who seemed ahead of her time. She had help. I think that made a big difference. She was educated along with her brothers until they went to college. Her brother believed in the emancipation of women. This all tells you something about her parents and the way the family was raised. Mercy married James Warren who fostered her literary endeavors.

Mercy wrote pamphlets against British laws; she corresponded with great American leaders & was great friends with Abigail Adams. Mercy wrote plays & poems that were published. Her play The Group was published Apr. 3, 1775. (I was wondering if that title had anything to do with the title of the popular novel The Group in the....1960's?) MW wrote a history of the American Revolution. Meanwhile, she had 5 sons in 9 years!

That was interesting about the contradictions - her urging women to let their husbands go to do their part in the formation of the new republic, but then pursuading her husband to stay home. James Warren was playing a very active role and people really wanted him in the Continental Congress, but he stayed with his family

Abigail Adams seemed to feel so differently. She needed her husband at home and missed him dreadfully, but knew how important it was to him to participate in the creation of the new country - she understood his ambitions and needs - and she thought he was important to the country and she put its needs before her own.

It was almost as though MW was selfish compared to some of the other women who made such great sacrifices.

Abigail Adams really was the epitome of bravery and "an heroine" as her husband called her.

Did anyone have a chance to take a look at MW's play The Group? I put a link to it. Here it is again:

Mercy Warren’s play The Group: http://www.samizdat.com/warren/group.html

Marni

I admit I find Mercy's writing tough going, as Cokie says. But that was the style of the day.

I was thinking that Esther Edwards Burr (mother of Aaron Burr) might have been more typical of the "elite" women at that time. She was married to a Presbyterian minister & president of Princeton, Aaron Burr (Sr), who had started wooing her when she was 14 & he was 33. A lot of that going on in this book!

She wrote a journal, written as a series of letters during the French & Indian War and it showed that she was often extremely depressed and exhausted from her duties as the wife of a minister & college president while raising children & managing the household. It was sad how she only saw her mother once after her marriage, then never again. (Her mother died of dysentery.)

Esther and her father died in a smallpox epidemic in Princeton in 1758. She was only 26 when she died and her son, Aaron Burr, was just two. So many people in our book died of smallpox or from the smallpox innoculation.

MARNI: "who had started wooing her when she was 14 & he was 33. A lot of that going on in this book!"

I noticed that too. I wondered if it was the custom then, as it has been in other places, for men not to marry until they were established financially, and then to marry younger women.

I think these women were elite because they were upper middle class women who - at least of the ones we have read about so far - were educated at least to be literate, were mostly married to and/or the dgts of educated, upper middle class or higher class men. Ben F was one of the wealthiest men in the colonies.

Would elite women be different today? YES! Elite women today could be of the elite strictly on their own accomplishments. Today "elite women" would be women of wealth and education......I was going to say women of influence, but i hesitated.....

Is Paris Hilton an elite woman?

OOPS, perhaps i'm being too much of a snob about intellect and power and influence, I was initially thinking she does not have influence, but i suppose she does have influence on the way some young women dress, or where they want to go and be - clubs, etc. Having the power of influence does not mean that it has to be a positive influence.

HHHHHUUUUUMMMMM what an interesting question you have posed Hats.......I tho't it was going to be relatively easy to answer. HA! ......... Encarta says "elite" means "privileged minority - a small group of people who have more social standing, power, wealth or talent than the rest of the larger group" Used as an adjective it means "the richest, best, most powerful; or more talented, privileged or highly trained than others".........

Does any of that - other than wealth apply to Paris Hilton -------I don't know why my mind landed on her, or if she matters to our conversation.........I guess an elite person doesn't have to fit all of the adjectives, one may suffice ..........now i'm not sure if an elite colonial woman would be different than a 21st century elite woman........aarrggghhhh Hats, you have confounded me, that's o.k., i like that kind of mental challenge.......jean

If you equate "a Well Known Woman" to being an "elite womeo", then the answer is yes. Paris Hilton is certainly the product of the Media that has certainly made many women and men well know throughout the nation and world. Perhaps the being ranked among the "well known" of the world does not automatically establish them as the Elite?

This permanent Exhibit at the Institute of Texan Cultures (ITC) tells of an ancestor of a current San Antonian, Stella Mae Gardner Hollis, whose great great grandmother, Emeline Miller, lived as a slave in the White House during the Andrew Jackson Administration. In 1990 it seems, Stella Hollis began researching family archives that included late 19th century pictures and family genealogical records to help her Grandson with a school history project.

In the early 1830’s Emeline lived as a child slave in the Whitehouse. On April 16 1832 in the East Room of the White House President Jackson Hosted a family christening ceremony involving the christening of his 3 year old grand niece, Mary Rachel Donaldson. As a christening gift to his grand niece Jackson gave her 8-year old Emeline to be her lifetime personal servant.

During the years that followed Emeline accompied Mary Rachel as they both matured moving with her mistresses from state-to-state, ending up in Texas in 1855. While there is no record of the circumstance of Emeline’s actual emancipation, it no doubt became a reality as the Civil War ended. In any case in the 1870 census Emeline is recorded as a resident of San Antonio with eight children. There is even a picture of her with one of her daughters and a detailed record of the family for that day.

I found this History-Wall exhibit impossible to photograph because of the lighting that spotlights certain areas. I do have a copy of Emeline’s picture with her daughter and I will at least put this picture on the Web as an Extension to my ITC, virtual tour page.

Click Here for a mini tour of the ITC. As it now stands, it does not include the Emeline Exhibit but it does include a tour of the Sharecropper’s Cabin that is also a part of the Afro-Texan exhibit. As I said I will at least add Emeline’s picture to this page.

Let me say that I am having a problem with my Dell desk top computer that crashed last evening. Dell Help (God Bless Dell and India) has it working again but there may be further undiagnosed trouble. Coincidentally last week I placed on order for a new Dell Media Notebook that will be delivered during the coming week.

Hats' question about elite women was a good one! Thanks for your ideas, Jean and Harold! And thanks for the def. of elite, Jean.

"Social standing, power, wealth or talent,... richest, best, most powerful, more talented, privileged or highly trained...."....influence.....These all sound like they would apply to elite women in colonial times and today. I was thinking of the words "politically or financially powerful."

It seems to me that most (not all) of the Founding Mothers were elite because of whom they married or because of the family they were born into rather than because of their own talents and achievements. Some had fathers or husbands or brothers who were wealthy, or politically or financially powerful. Sometimes the powerful were church ministers since in some areas power in the church meant political power, as well.

Today women can become part of the elite on their own merits in the worlds of art, politics, business, finance. I think being born into or marrying into an elite family contributes to a woman's position today as well as in colonial times - like Paris Hilton. Her family has tons of money. She herself has looks. She created notoriety with the publishing of her sex video. That launched her TV career. It all worked together and sort of snowballed.

Harold, thank you for the virtual tour of the institute. I took great interest in the two room sharecropper's house. In the south, I am sure there are people to this day doing sharecropping work. Like migrant workers, I suspect their living conditions are far from the best.

Marni and JoanK, I loved Mercy Warren Otis's hard fight for independence. I came to a complete halt when she didn't want her husband to take part in the fight or take his seat as a judge. I just didn't expect that reaction from her. Perhaps, at that point, reality set in. Mercy might have realized how much time she had sacrificed, her sons literally might have become sacrificed in the coming war. Maybe she thought enough is enough. My family has done their part. Let others do their part.

I really like Abigail Adams. She not only talked about "Remembering the ladies." She also talked about the slaves. She wrote John Adams.

"I wish most sincerely there was not a slave in the province. It always appeared a most iniquitous scheme to me--fight ourselves for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have. You know my mind upon this subject."

Abigail Adams cared about women issues and slavery issues. It seems she had the magnificent talent of being to care about both issues equally. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Did Mercy Otis Warren lose any of her sons in the Revolutionary War? Maybe the loss of one or more of her sons made her more protective of her husband.

Mabel,

Thank you for the definitions of elite. Also, thank you for the link about Margaret Sanger.

Harold: What an interesting post about Emeline Miller. I'm going to have to take a closer look at your link.

Harold,

I was sorry she did not appear on the virtual institute.

Am I right in remembering that Elizabeth Keckley was a free woman when she was in the Lincoln White HOuse? .....I remember that story of Jackson giving the young slave girl to his niece(?) for her birthday, and i remember it in many other family stories also. My God, how obscene! And reading that Phillys Wheatley was bo't by her family as a 7 or 8 year old off the boat!! Just think of what her experiece must have been up to that point - how obscene, it's nauseating. Literally makes my stomach queasy to think of those poor children's experiences.

Harold, enjoyed your pics from ITC. Your first picture reminded me that in many tribes, the Native American women were responsible for the "housing." If the housing was a teepee the women prepared the skins, gathered the branches for poles and constructed the teepee. When the tribe was moving, it was the women's responsiblity to deconstruct it, transport it - sometimes on their own backs - and reconstruct it. In NJ the Delewares lived in maternal family groups in longhouses. When a couple got "married" the husband came to the wife's mother's house. If he didn't behave there, the wife could simply put his belongings outside the house and the marriage could be ended........compare that to English law of women becoming nobodies when she got married - and who were the more "civilized" of the two societies? ....at least as we were taught in our history classes....jean

Hats: Re your question "Did Mercy Otis Warren lose any of her sons in the Revolutionary War?"

I do not find anywhere that she lost a son in the war. Below is a link to Wikepedia info about Mercy Otis Warren, including "Mercy Otis Warren was known as The Conscience of the American Revolution.....Mercy Otis Warren became perhaps the most important of Revolutionary War women.....Bitterly resentful in her old age of the restrictions imposed upon women, Warren focused particularly on educational reform. She chafed at the memory of doing needlework while her brothers were taught Latin and Greek, and she argued that such artificial limits on achievement harmed both men and women and were a violation of the natural rights philosophy espoused in the Revolution. .."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercy_Otis_Warren

I'm sure we'll see more interesting info about her as we continue Founding Mothers.

Marni

I was just going over the education of the Founding Mothers who were introduced in chapters 1 and 2. Although some complained about the limitations on their education, a number of them must have been unusually educated for their times in America.

Abigail Adams' father was a minister and she was educated in the classics. I imagine a minister's family had many books around the house. Abigail had the ability to communicate in writing regularly with wit and intelligence with various members of Congress and other political figures. Eliza Pinckney was educated in London. When she returned home, she educated herself further in topics such as the classics. Mercy Otis Warren was educated along with her brothers until they went off to college. She became a well-known writer. She and Catharine Sawbridge Macaulay Graham both wrote history books. Phyllis Wheatley was educated by the Wheatley family and became famous for her poetry. Annis Boudinot Stockton was a poet, so she must have been educated to a certain extent. Deborah Read Franklin must have had a basic education, certainly, to be able to handle all of the business dealings, financials, and investments that she did.

These elite ladies were educated women even if they didn't go to college. After all, American women didn't start going to college on a grand scale until well into the 20th century.

I was comparing these women with Abraham Lincoln in their education. Lincoln had a much more limited education than many of them, I believe, because his father took him out of school to help support the family when he was very young. He was basically self-educated.

Seeing the astounding accomplishments of many of these women and of Lincoln and the legacies they left behind makes me think "where there's a will, there's a way." They were intelligent, some even brilliant, strong-willed, determined and ambitious.

Marni

Marni,

Thank you for the site. I also thank you for trying to discover whether any of Mercy Warren Otis's sons had died in the war.

Oh dear!! Seems I got so excited about Latin Spring Break that I've overextended myself! (what's new, eh...bet we all do that!)

I've not only subscribed to this book discussion but also to My Name is Red, a very interesting but intricate book indeed and by an author whom I have not yet gotten used to.

Anyway did want to let you all know that I'm trudging through both books. I really like both books. I'm also trying to keep up with the posts. Wish me luck. I'm still here! (In other words...please don't drink all the madeira and eat up all the cookies without saving me some!!) :^ )

Alliemae

These women did much for the Revolution and I'm sure that they sowed the seeds of the feminist movement. The women in these first two chapters were for the most part somewhat exposed to education in defiance of the prevailing custom. I couldn't help but think of all the 'common' women who would not be educated; that were used more or less for breeding stock. Oh, the harm that any kind of discrimination does to all of society.

Oh, Alliemae, cookies!!! I must find another good colonial recipe....

Here's a tart recipe:

Maids of Honor (Isn't that a sweet name for a recipe)

1/2 cup butter

1/2 teaspoon salt

1 teaspoon vanilla

1 cup sugar

2 eggs

1 1/2 cups flour

2 teaspoons baking powder

2/3 cup milk

pie pastry

apple jelly (homemade if possible)

Make yellow cake batter. Cream the butter, adding to it the salt and vanilla. Gradually blend in the sugar. Add the eggs, one at a time, beating well after each addition. Sift the flour, measure, and sift together with the baking powder. Add alternately with milk to the creamed butter and egg mixture. Line muffin tins with pastry. Into each pastry cup put 1/2 teaspoon apple jelly. Then drop in a spoonful of cake batter, so that the tin is about 3/4 full as for cupcakes. Bake in a 350 degree oven about 20-25 minutes till the cake is done.

--------------------------------------

I suppose you could use a different type of jelly if apple jelly is not your favorite.

Marni

Marylin: It amazes me that they even had any time for education with all the daily tasks that required attention!

I just found a brief article about our author in Wikepedia. Listen to this!

"She is the daughter of the late Hale Boggs and his wife Lindy Claiborne Boggs. Boggs was Majority Leader in the House of Representatives at the time the twin engine aircraft in which he was traveling crashed over a remote section of Alaska. The site of the crash has never been located, and the bodies of Boggs and the three other men on the plane with him have never been recovered. Her mother subsequently replaced her father in Congress and served there for many years. her sister, the late Barbara Boggs Sigmund, was mayor of Princeton, New Jersey and a candiate for U.S. Senate from New Jersey, and died of cancer. Her brother Tommy Boggs - who coined the nickname "Cokie," because he couldn't say "Coreen" - is an influential Washington, D.C. attorney and lobbyist.....

...A 1964 graduate in political science from Wellesley College.....In June 2002, Roberts was diagnosed with breast cancer. She was treated by lumpectomy, radiotherapy, and chemotherapy and has remained cancer-free since."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cokie_Roberts

My gosh! Her family has had its share of tragedies! And her sister dying of cancer and then Cokie getting breast cancer. I wonder what kind of cancer her sister had?

What a distinguished family Cokie had! Her mother sounds like quite a woman! And her sister, too!

Marni

Here is a speech by Donna Shalala in 1996 when she was Sec. of HHS, speaking at the Barbara Boggs Sigmund symposium. Barbara had an eye removed because of cancer and she DID always coordinate her eye patch w/ her clothes. I remember a pink one in particular. She was very helpful to us as we started the Alice Paul Institue and in buying Alice's estate. Donna's speech talks about Barbara, but also about the state of women in 1996, which gives us somethings to contemplate and compare w/ the women we are reading about. http://www.hhs.gov/news/speeches/prince.html

One of the things that came to mind about the "elite" question - many of these men (husbands/fathers) would NOT be considered the elite in class-conscious Europe. Anyone who was a "trademan" or "craftsman" or even minister or professor would NOT be elite in England, unless they were the archbishop. So that lets out Ben, AA's father and many more.

AA and JA had a dear friend Joseph Warren who was killed in one of the Mass. battles, I think it was Bunker Hill. Even tho i can find nothing that connects him to Mercy, they must have been related even if not closely.

Interesting that Mercy felt that artificial limits of equality for women would hurt both men and women, meaning the opposite would be true - it would benefit both men and women to have equality. That was very insightful of her. We've spent a lot of time and energy in the contemporary women's movement trying to get that concept across to society.......jean

Jean: Thanks for the link to that inspiring speech.

I was hunting for info about Dr. Joseph Warren also. I had read some about him and his role in the years leading up to the Revolution. He was a very respected physician and was one of the patriots who died early in the conflict. Interesting to note that it was Benedict Arnold, Dr. Warren's good friend, who helped get money to provide for the family after Dr. Warren was killed. Here's a blurb about Dr. Joseph Warren:

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1256.html

I've been hunting for a relationship between Dr. Joseph Warren and James Warren, Mercy Otis Warren's husband, but have not found any either. However, I found something interesting about Mercy in my hunt. Mercy DID go to college:

"When Joseph, the oldest [Otis] son, decided not to attend college, Mercy, the youngest child, was allowed to take his place. She studied the same curriculum as her brother James, except for Latin and Greek, which she read in translation.

Both James and Mercy were exceptional students. Mercy loved history—especially political history—invective, and wit; Sir Walter Raleigh's History of the World (1614) became a lifelong model for her. Both of the Otis children studied literature, including Shakespeare, Milton, Dryden, and Pope, and became able writers and rhetoricians. It was the younger James who first uttered the phrase 'Taxation without representation is tyranny,' which became the battle cry for the American Revolution."

http://college.hmco.com/english/lauter/heath/4e/students/author_pages/eighteenth/warren_me.html

Marni

It doesn't say where she attended. I can't imagine. It couldn't have been Harvard, which was the closest college to them and where all those Mass. folks (men) attended. That is a very strange statement that she told her brothers' place..........if it said she studied (at home) the cirriculum that her brothers studied, that i could understand......I'm at a lose......jean

What college did she attend?
Wheaton College, originally a woman's seminary, might have been her choice!
In Edit: After posting, I found it was not. The college wasn't founded until after 1800.
However, it is where I attended college, many, many years ago, as a little slip of a gal from Ohio, coming East
for the first time! It was a woman's college then, and I loved the opportunity to shine as an educated woman among other women. A lot, but not everything, has changed in hundreds of years.

Here's a link
Wheaton College, Massachusetts

Mippy an Ohio girl! My mother grew up in Marysville, Ohio, near Columbus. I visited there many times. My dad got his B.A. from Ohio Wesleyan.

I've been hunting around to find out about Mercy Otis Warren going to college. It doesn't appear that she went to an actual college. She was tutored along with her brother, James, as he prepared for Harvard and then later as he prepared at home for his Master's Degree.

"Mercy’s older brother James Otis was prepared for Harvard College by the Reverend Jonathan Russell, his uncle....After completing his baccalaureate at Harvard James Otis returned to Barnstable where he began his studies for the M.A. degree. Mercy worked with him, probably doing her first reading of John Locke and David Hume at this time. "

http://www.samizdat.com/warren/generalintroduction.html

------------------------------------------

Mercy's brother, James, was really involved in events leading up to the Revolution. He went through some tragic events.

"In the summer of 1769 he got into a controversy with some revenue officers, and attacked them in the Boston "Gazette." A few evenings afterward, while sitting in the British coffee-house, he was assaulted by one Robinson, a commissioner of customs, supported by several army or navy officers. Mr. Otis was savagely beaten, and received a sword-cut in the head, from the effects of which he never recovered. He had already shown some symptoms of mental disease, but from this time he rapidly grew worse until his reason forsook him.....in 1771 he was again chosen to the legislature, and was sometimes afterward seen in court or in town-meeting, he was unable to take part in public business. In June, 1775, he was living, harmlessly insane, at the house of his sister, Mercy Warren, at Watertown.....The last years of his life were spent in Andover. Early in 1778......as he was standing in his front doorway in a thunder-shower, leaning on his cane and talking to his family, he was struck by lightning and instantly killed."

http://www.famousamericans.net/jamesotis/

Marni

Well, I have a cup of delicious herbal tea and am browsing through Founding Mothers. We've reached the end of Week 1, chapters 1 and 2 and will say good-by to several of the women we met in these chapters. Several more of the women will remain with us for awhile as we head into war.

The first week brought us through the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Colonial women's roles were changing as the country rebelled against Britain. Women were caught up in the Revolutionary cause.

We saw some women patriots joining mobs, tarring and feathering merchants who defied the boycott against British goods. Women were marching in political demonstrations and participating in subversive activities; they were doing without some goods, such as tea and cloth from abroad (wearing colors - not black - to funerals!). They were hindering British soldiers from finding hidden arms. Women were inciting the country to rebel by writing pamphlets, plays, poems and letters. They were advising the Founding Fathers. Some were pushing for emancipation of women.

All the while, they were bearing and raising children, maintaining homes (sometimes more than one), caring for family and friends, sometimes managing businesses and handling finances, and coping with disease and death. As Cokie Roberts said, "...doing what women do."

Marni

and we're talking about brave women who made a difference, particularly in the political arena and you've all seen me mention Alice Paul in snippets here is the website for the Alice Paul Institute www.alicepaul.org in case you want to know more.....jean

Marni,

That is a very sad story about Mercy's brother. You went into more detail than Cokie Roberts in the book. Just reading about his beating which Cokie Roberts told about made me feel deeply sorry for him.

Mabel,

I have heard you mention Alice Paul in other discussions. I am glad you listed the website again. These women were very brave. After reading just the first two chapters and sneaking over to chapter three, I can say without the support of the women our victory in the American Revolution would have been slowed down.

Are there any monuments in any states to some of these women?

Marni, enjoy your cup of herbal tea. I will join you.

Jean: I should be embarrassed to say this but I didn't even realize that this was women's history month. How timely that we are reading Founding Mothers now!!!

Thank you for the URL to the Alice Paul Institute. I don't think I've ever heard of Alice Paul before you mentioned her. Astounding when I look at what she did - such as authoring Equal Rights Amendment!!!

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Hats: Re "Are there any monuments in any states to some of these women?"

Here's a list with photos of monuments to women. Some of them are introduced in the section of Founding Women we are about to start!

Monuments to Women

Marni

Marni, thank you. After looking at the site, I don't see any monuments for women who did remarkable deeds during the Revolutionary War and the Civil War.

These monuments seemed to have been erected after women had achieved their rights or at a later time in history.

It's a good feeling to see these monument honoring these women. I have been to Arlington cemetery. I don't remember the one there. I might have been too focused on the grave of JFK. I visited the grave in the sixties.

Hats: When I click on the link, the first 5 women listed are notable for bravery during the Revolutionary period. I'll copy and paste the words from the site below.

1. "On April 26 1777, the daughter of a New York militia officer, Sybil Ludington was with her family when an exhausted messenger reached the Ludington home with news of a British attack and burning of Danbury, Connecticut where munitions and supplies for the entire region were stored. Sybil leapt to her horse and galloped off to rally the surrounding patriots and call out the volunteer militia to repel the British raid. Racing through the dark night over more than 40 miles of unfamiliar roads, the 16-year-old girl spread the alarm to rouse the countryside against the attack. The statue, presented by the DAR, is in Carmel, New York."

2. "Margaret Corbin: During the Revolutionary War battle of Fort Washington, 1776, Margaret Corbin manned her husbands cannon when he was killed, until she was wounded. Margaret Corbin was the first woman awarded a pension by Congress for her service and disability. She is buried in the U.S. Military Academy Cemetery at West Point. Some historians think that her deeds, not those of Mary Hays, began the legend of Molly Pitcher."

3. "In 1778, two years after Margaret Corbin's heroic stand, Mary Ludwig Hays also kept her husband's cannon firing after he fell in the battle of Monmouth, near Freehold, N.J. Mary Hays (later McCauley), said to have been Molly Pitcher, is recognized both in N.J. and in Pennsylvania, where she lived after the war. This statue is adjacent to her grave site in Carlisle, Pennsylvania."

4. "In Sharon Massachusetts a statue of Deborah Samson, who fought disguised as Robert Shirtliffe in the Continental Army, stands outside the Sharon library. Deborah served for three years and was awarded a pension for her military service."

5. "In 1782 when hostile Indians were attacking Fort Henry, Ohio, the troops ran out of gunpowder. Young Elizabeth Zane volunteered to fetch a keg of powder known to be in her brother's house sixty yards outside the gates of the fort. She walked past the Indians unnoticed and got the powder. On her return trip she ran through hostile fire and reached the fort in safety with the gunpowder. This statue is in the town of Martin's Ferry, Ohio and was raised in 1903 by the school children of Martin's Ferry."

Marni

Oh, Marni, thank you! I became too excited and missed the clickable.

Hats: I'm so glad you asked about the monuments. I wouldn't have thought to look.

Marni,

I am glad you were able to find the monuments. I feel so happy to see each one.

Along the area of the Lewis & Clark trail, in one of the Dakotas, is a monument to Sacajawea. She certainly could be considered one of our early heroines.

(Sorry to butt in - we're travelling, and I've only been able to check in occasionally. I've been enjoying the conversations.)

Hi MaryZ,

I would love to see a statue of Sacajawea. I hope you are having fun.

We're having a great trip, Hats - plan to come back home on Thursday.

The statue stands on a bluff overlooking the Missouri River. It's quite imposing. I couldn't take a photograph - the wind was blowing so hard, I couldn't stand steady enough - John had to take it. (But I don't have it to post right now - sorry)

MaryZ,

That's alright. Just don't get blown away!

Mary Z - Good to see you. That's great you'd stop by while on your trip.

Sacajawea was also on a stamp not too long ago along with her baby son "Pomp" Charbonneau. (He was the youngest person ever on a U.S. stamp.)

Have any of the Founding Mothers been on a stamp?

Alice Paul was on a stamp, if I remember correctly, I think it was in the early 90's. Not only was she involved w/ women's rights, but she consulted w/ Eleanor Roosevelt when ER was writing the Human Rights Declaration for the United Nations. She also had a house in Switzerland that was the home of the International Women's Party and housed people escaping from the Nazis.....one of the women, also named Alice, whose family she housed in Switzerland, "rescued" Alice from a horrible nursing home situation in Connecticut in 1976 by telling the Moorestown Friends Meeting about her situation, so they moved her to a Quaker nursing home here in Moorestown. It was there that i met and talked w/ her on her 92 birthday in 1977.....what a thrill that was!! Tiny little lady in a wheel chair. I asked her how she felt about the publicity she was getting at that time - (the ERA had been voted out of Congress, the contemporary women's movement was talking about her and women's history and Life and Look magazines had done articles about her). She looked up at me w/ her famous piercing blue eyes and said "you are the suffragists now!!!" WOW! The mantle ws passed and it was on us!!!!......jean

Thanks for all the memorials, MARNI. you always find the best websites. In Bethesda, Maryland, where our Deems, and PatH live, there is a memorial to pioneer women -- a beautiful statue which has become so surrounded by buildup you can pass it many times without noticing it.

JEAN: what a wonderful experience!

Jean: How exciting for you to meet and talk with Alice Paul. And you did pick up the mantle, Jean!!

PatW has placed in our Header above the Week 2 Questions for Consideration plus a link called "Timeline Links." If you click on the link, you will find a number of Timelines showing the major events of the Revolution for that period of time. Just click on any you are interesting in. More will be added as we move forward.

Thanks, PatW!!

I jumped the gun a bit on Question #1 when I provided Hats with the Monument information today. But there is plenty more to say about the question!

Marni

PatW, thank you.

Marni, I am glad you asked the question about the stamp. That's a good question. Is Abigail Adams on any stamp, I wonder?

Many of the women travelled along with their husbands during the war. Living this close to their husbands, some women had the misfortune to see their husbands shot in battle. Some of these very women like Margaret Corbin and "Molly Pitcher" immediately started shooting bullets at the British. I think this shows their bravery, allegiance to the cause and how much they loved their husbands. Perhaps, some of those shots were fired in anger. How dare you shoot my good husband?

I felt a little bit disturbed about the controversy over whether Molly Pitcher ever existed. Some write Molly Pitcher is really Mary Hays. Is it any way to know for sure? DNA? Where did the name Molly Pitcher come from? It's a pretty name. Maybe if somebody looked through old records for all the people with the last name of "Pitcher," they might come up with some information.

Once again, lauding and quoting David Hackett Fischer's marvelous Washington's Crossing

On Martha Washington:
(She) traveled back and forth in high style between Mt. Vernon and the army's headquarters, with slave coachmen and postilions in the brilliant scarlet and white livery of the Washington family. In winter she ... traveled in an elegant sleigh... and (was) her husband's best friend and most intimate advisor.
In ... headquarters she pitched in with the paperwork, and he came to rely on her support.

On slavery:
A close companion was Washington's slave William Lee, ... a manservant, but more than that... He was a comrade, a friend, and a brilliant rider in a class with Washington himself... The 'two men would rush, at full speed, through brake or tangled wood, in a style at which modern huntsmen would stand aghast.'
William Lee rode with Washington through the war ... and (he) later emancipated him 'as a testimony for his attachment to me and for his faithful service during the ... war.' (page 18).

Marni ~ Thanks for your nice note about our Ohio backgrounds-in-common!

Welcome to Week 2 of Founding Mothers! Since now we are right in the midst of battle with musket balls wizzing past us, I'm posting a link to fife and drum music. (I found it during the 1776 discussion.) You'll see pictures of drums and fifes. Scroll down and click on the "Play fife and drum music" button to listen a fife and drum corps play music of the Revolution. Let the fife play for a minute, then the drums pick up. It goes on for quite awhile and is pretty cool.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/revwar/guco/gucomusic.html

The drummer had a key role in the army. Every drum tap and drum roll signified something - a signal to the soldiers to do something very specific such as turn right or turn left. I read that there were 179 different drum signals used in the British army. The leader of the military group would give the order and the drummer would drum out the appropriate signal. A drum beat spoke louder than the human voice and could be heard over battle.

Marni

Hats: I was so surprised to read about all the women who followed their husbands (and lovers?) to war - and some of them bringing the children! Apparently, some of them were too poor to stay behind. Some of them wanted to care for their husbands - wash clothes, cook food, etc. I believe it was Jean who mentioned earlier that when the women weren't there washing their clothes, the men's clothes literally rotted on their bodies from dirt and sweat.

As we read, some of the women were killed or taken prisoner and some stepped up to fight, even took their husbands' places where their husbands fell in battle.

Some of the officers' wives - like flirtatious fun Kitty Greene (one of my very favorite Founding Mothers!), Martha Washington, and Lucy Knox, joined their husbands during the winter time, typically the "time off" period when the armies waited out the bad weather. Their quarters were better than those of the common soldier.

Vivacious high-spirited Kitty Greene hated to be cooped up at home with her children & didn't want to miss out on army camp entertainment where she was usually the center of attention. Of course, whenever she spent time with her husband, she got pregnant. Kitty loved to flirt & dance; Washington wanted her around – thought she was good for troop morale.(I think she was good for his morale!!) She was always able to cheer everyone up.

Wasn't that a fabulous story bout Kitty dancing a marathon 3-hours with Washington one winter in a “stamina contest.” Her husband, Nathanael, took her outside finally and told her she was “too fond of wine.” hahaha. I wonder what Martha thought!?

What did you think about Kitty leaving her children at home with the relatives?

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Mippy: I just finished Washington's Crossing! What a fabulous book!! I liked it better than McCullough's 1776! It gave much more information and was so well written!

Can you just picture Martha Washington riding to her husband in that fabulous coach?? or the sleigh!!! And what a vivid picture we saw of Washington and Billy Lee riding like mad after the dogs in a fox hunt near Mt. Vernon - or after the British when the Americans finally had victories at Trenton and Princeton! Some said Washington was the best rider in America and Henry Lee apparently was his equal.

Women soldiers in the Revolution: http://userpages.aug.com//captbarb/femvets.html

Marni

By the way, it might be easy to mix up Kitty Greene and Caty Greene. Kitty was Catharine Littlefield Greene, Gen. Nathanael Greene's vivacious wife. Caty was Catharine Ray Greene, Kitty's aunt. Caty corresponded a lot with Ben Franklin. Kitty, who grew up on Block Island, went to live with her aunt Caty in Rhode Island.

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I found some good portraits of founding mothers and founding fathers. With some of these, if you move your cursor around in the bottom right-hand corner, you'll see a red button. Click on it to enlarge the picture.

I looked and looked and could not find a portrait of Kitty Greene or of Lucy Knox on the web.

Portrait of Nathanael Greene: http://images.nypl.org/?id=EM15441&t=w

Portrait of Henry Knox: http://www.generalknoxmuseum.org/knoxbio.html

General Henry Knox Museum (replica of Henry and Lucy's mansion, Montpelier, in Thomaston, Maine): http://www.generalknoxmuseum.org/

Younger George Washington: http://images.nypl.org/?id=423414&t=w

Miniatures of George and Martha Washington: http://images.nypl.org/?id=420806&t=w

Martha Washington: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-116.jpg

Houdon’s life mask of Washington: http://images.nypl.org/?id=815049&t=w

Painting of Washington with Billy Lee: http://images.nypl.org/?id=422176&t=w

Painting of Mt. Vernon in 1799: http://images.nypl.org/?id=54284&t=w

Mt. Vernon today: http://www.mountvernon.org/

Marni

Hats: Here's a painting of "Molly Pitcher," whoever she was: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-045.jpg

Painting of the "first flag" being made: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-038.jpg

Portrait of Madame de Lafayette: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-124.jpg

Portraits of the Marquis de Lafayette: http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/special/marquis/MarquisFindAids/printcollection.htm

Marni

I tried my best. At the time i was director of the county YWCA and basically ran a women's center with a lot of programming to enable women to be (as the army slogan goes) the best that they can be. We had the first Displaced Homemakers' program in South Jersey - helping women who had been homemakers all their lives and were now divorced or widowed; we ran the campaign for southern NJ for the NJ ERA referendum, etc, etc. I was one of the "founding mothers" of the Alice Paul Institute, educating people about Alice and then buying her estate and preserving it. I was the Fed'l Women's Program Manager - helping women and supervisors get over the stereotypes of what jobs women should - or should not - have for the Dept of Army and in my job as an adjunct in history at the community college I incorporate a lot of women's history that students haven't learned before. I do a lot of speaking at women's groups and schools about women's history, women's rights and Alice.

Probably if you asked people who only know me superficially who i was they would respond first that i'm a feminist - altho i try not to beat people over the head w/ it

- it's because they probably know me from my jobs. My friends would have a lot of different responses, but feminist or women's rights advocate would be in there. None of it has been a chore, it just seems natural and right to do it and it's largely been a lot of fun and i've met wonderful people, especially women in the process....... a lot like coming to the SeniorNEt sites!

Thanks as usual for the wonderful links. Don't you just love virtual tours of places? You included the picture of Betsy Ross, if you ever get to PHilly visit her house. She and her husband combined families to include 9 children. When i first walked those narrow, twisting stairs all i could think of was a woman with a child on her hip, a laundry basket in the other hand, trying not to trip on those long skirts, walking up and down those steps. She and her husband ran an upholstery shop in the basement, so she probably made that trip many times a day.

Thanks for the clarification on Kitty and Caty, I think i may have confused them myself.......jean

JEAN: what a wonderful career you have! I'm so glad to know you.

Yes, I think all of us like Kitty Greene! Her picture on the cover of the book does and doesn't look like I expected. There's that twinkle in her eyes and small smile that tells you that she's up to some mischief (one of my grandsons looks at me with that same expression, his eyes saying "Are you ready for some fun?" and I always think "Yeah, let's go!"

But I didn't expect to see her wrapped up in so many clothes. It's the faithful Abagail who shows some skin, while Kitty is dressed like a nun!! Go figure.

Jean: What impressive credentials. We are proud that you are a member of our discussion!!! Wow!! You did pick up the mantle.

JoanK: From the note on the back of the book, it looks as though Kitty Greene's portrait (on the cover) was painted somewhere between 1800 and 1814 - somewhere around 30 to 40 years after the Revolution began. So she's an older woman there, but she looks pretty good for her age! She's wearing black. I wonder why?? Her painting is attributed to Frothingham, but I can't find it on the web.

I found it interesting that I couldn't find portraits of several Founding Mothers who were married to important men. I read that Nathanael Greene was "the forgotten general." He sure was forgotten. I never learned anything about him in history class. I just read about him for the first time fairly recently. Maybe that's why there aren't portraits of his wife available on the web.?? There are a jillion of Abigail Adams but, of course, she was a first lady.

I thought it was neat to see miniatures of George and Martha. That was the thing before photos - to have miniatures of your loved one. I read that they were painted on ivory.

Marni

Oh, my gosh! My husband just handed me a present - Washington's General by Terry Golway. It's a biography of Nathanael Greene! (It's my birthday!!) I had taken the book out of the library awhile back and my husband had said, "Oh, no! I got you that for your birthday." So I took it back to the library unread. Now I own it! If I find any good tidbits about Kitty in it that Cokie hasn't mentioned, I'll let you know!

Right on the cover it says, "Nathanael Greene was the most underappreciated great man in the War for Independence...."

Happy Birthday, Marni! What a wonderful gift from your sweetie!

today is also the birthday of my - as of 3 hrs ago - "future" dgt in law. My son couldn't wait for this day to be over!

But he relaxed after she said "yes."

Don't feel badly, I was a history major and i never heard any more about Gen Green than his name until about 3 yrs ago, and then i read about the southern campaign of the the Rev War. I don't remember where i read it, was that in the John Adams book? In college and much of what i read since then almost everything was about the battles in Virginia and to the north.

thank you Joan and Marni for the kind words about my career(s), none of them were anything i planned, i just kept following opportunities and my heart.......jean

Jean: Congratulations to your son and fiancee!! How wonderful!!

"i just kept following opportunities and my heart" - Good for you. Certainly not everyone does that. And I'll bet you created the opportunities!

I just read something in my new Greene book. The author refers to Nathanael Greene's wife as "Caty." I had read this in another book. Some authors call her "Kitty" and some authors call her "Caty." Cokie Roberts consistently refers to her as "Kitty" as did Joseph Ellis in His Excellency. (I'm pretty sure that was the book!)

In Greene's letters quoted in my new book, Nathanael calls her "my sweet angel" so that wasn't a help, although it's romantic!

I definitely had some madeira!

Marni, Happy Birthday!! What a wonderful gift too!

Marni,

Thank you for again finding such interesting links. I have gone through each one. I especially liked looking at the beautiful Montpelier. It is great to know of John McCullough's involvement.

Mabel, I feel very honored to know you. Wow! you have really involved yourself in the helping of other women to move into better lives in society, not to mention your wonderful help in the Alice Dunbar memorials.

Happy Birthday, Marni!

Enjoy your book, and let us know how you like it!
and Thanks for the links!

In this day and age women take childbirth for granted. Much of the time is spent trying to decide whether to wait and learn the baby's sex or to learn the baby's sex early so that shopping and preparing can start.

I had one friend who lost a baby in childbirth. I think my friend had Toxemia. I can't remember it has been so long.

These women had to wonder whether their babies would live or die. The mortality rate being high. To make matters worse the woman might have to go into labour without her husband at home. With the husband fighting a war, she did not know whether she might also lose him. These women had to carry more than a few concerns while also carrying their babies.

A day belated Happy Birthday, Marnie! Keep us abrest of info from your new book.

Jean, and others - I am honored to be in such impressive company. A toast with the maderia to you.

Martha Washington almost kept a sewing factory at her home. The slaves sewed many of the garments for the soldiers fighting the American Revolution.

Hello--lucked on to your discussion from a SeniorNet email update this morning. I will try to locate the book and play catch-up. I have read the previous interesting posts.

I have always liked Cokie Roberts and it sounds like a fascinating book.

You all sound very knowledgable about women's part in shaping our history.

Hello ladies, It seems your only Guy participant has been side tracked by a new Notebook Media Computer and his income tax. The new Dell notebook runs on Windows XP Media Edition complete with a TV tuner as well as the other bells and whistles; the income tax is of course our common lot. I guess I would rather mess with the Dell TV than the tax. I am having some trouble connecting it to my SBC Yahoo wireless modem but I I cant ignore the tax or Founding Mothers also.

Regarding our American Revolution and the personal violence to civilians engendered that was certainly a significant factor though it may not have been quite on the scale experienced in France a few years later or in most of the many revolutions in the more than two centuries that have passed since.

In the American 1770’s event it seems to have been mostly attacks by Patriot mobs on Tory loyalists. Actual hangings were not unheard of and the tar and feathers application was also a popular terror. I have never understood how this was carried out. Obviously if they applied melted tar at a near boiling temperature over much body area, it would kill the victim in a most painful manner. Though the intent may have been to inflect pain short of death, it would seem a most cruel punishment to inflict for an opposite political belief leading to the conclusion that our revolution like the others certainly included its share of terror.

I see on your profile that one of your dgts teaches social studies in a middle school. I taught social studies in the high schools for 7 yrs eons ago and i always said anyone who teaches in middle school or jr high school should get paid twice as much as everyone else, those kids want to be "adults" one minute and are "crying" the next. We need great teachers at that age, thank your dgt for me and all of society.

Harold - it is so great to have a man who will read about women's history and participate. I was pleased that you were going to be w/ us. After all, her/history is really the history of all of us, just like Mercy said that women's rights would benefit men and women.

Speaking of MERCY! How could she have the audacity to tell Abigail to send John on his way to France!?!?! She did acknowledge that AA might take exception to her giving AA that advice, considering that she wouldn't let James participate.........I'm sure that AA was too much of a lady to respond in the way that i might have.

......jean

Thanks for the toasts and good wishes!

Saucy: Welcome to our Founding Mothers discussion! We're so glad to have a new addition. I hope you can find the book. It's so interesting!

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Hats: I loved seeing the Montpelier site, too. I was curious about why it was named Montpelier. What is the significance of that name? James Madison named his home Montpelier. The capital of Vermont is Montpelier. Henry Knox named his home in Maine Montpelier. A number of towns in various states are named Montpelier. Even some U.S. ships and a submarine were named Montpelier. Any of you Latin scholars know what Montpelier means?

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We in America today certainly don't have to worry like the colonials about death from childbearing or our children dying from childhood diseases. Problems such as toxemia are usually spotted early enough and through Caesarian section children can be saved. Modern medicine prevents so many diseases that were once common.

It's so sad to read in Founding Mothers about all the children who died young and the women who died in childbirth or from its complications. And so sad about their husbands and children left behind.

A number of the Founding Mothers lost their mothers when they were young. Kitty Greene was 10 years old when her mother died. Kitty's husband, Nathanael, lost his mother when he was 11. Deborah Sampson was orphaned when she was young. Aaron Burr's mother Esther died when he was 2. Esther Reed died suddenly of dysentery when her youngest was 4 months old. Benedict Arnold's first wife Margaret died young leaving 3 young sons. Eliza Pinckney had to run 3 plantations when she was 16 because her mother died and her father was in the West Indies. Its goes on and on.

And then the worry about husbands and other relatives dying on the battlefield or from injuries sustained there. Diseases ran rampant through army camps - typhoid fever, smallpox, malaria, wounds....It certainly took strength to cope at home and on the battlefield.

Marni

I thought Mercy had a hunk of nerve. She wanted to hold on to her husband. Yet, she had the nerve to tell Abigail to let John go. How do you explain her reasoning? I can't.

Hi Harold.

Marni,

I am glad you listed the different places named Montpelier. In my head I had a familiarity with the name. Maybe I was thinking of James Madison's home. What does Montpelier mean?

Harold: Thank goodness you're here! We appreciate a male presence in this discussion. You add a very important dimension besides providing all kinds of interesting information and opinions.

Re: "...personal violence to civilians...In the American 1770’s event it seems to have been mostly attacks by Patriot mobs on Tory loyalists...."

It's fascinating to read about the War for Independence as a civil war. I had no idea until recently about the atrocities that Loyalists committed on rebels and atrocities rebels committed on Loyalists. The tarring and feathering story happened more than once. Sometimes, not always, tarring and feathered killed the victim because the tar was so hot and burned the skin. At the very least, it was a horrible humiliation and was a huge job to get the stuff off of the body.

Here's a brief history about tarring and feathering: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_and_feather

Another punishment used in this period was "riding the rail" where a victim was made to straddle a fence rail held on the shoulders of two men, with other men on either side to keep him upright on the rail. The victim was then paraded around town. It was supposed to have been painful as well as humiliating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_the_rail

Of course, victims also were booted out of their homes. We saw patriots as well as Loyalists forced to flee from their homes in our book. Jane Franklin Mecom was a prime example. She was run out of her home by Loyalists and British when the British took over Boston in 1775 and Jane became a refugee. She was forced to flee on a number of occasions, going desperately from home to home, staying with friends or relatives.

Rape was a terrible price many women had to pay when a war was waged in their own country. It was awful reading about Lord Rawdon, a young smug British officer, who described rapes to his friend - how the British troops were keeping themselves entertained. "The fair nymphs of this isle are in wonderful tribulation...A girl cannot step into the bushes to pluck a rose without running the most imminent risk of being ravished...they don't bear them [the assaults] with the proper resignation....we have most entertaining courts-martial every day."

Marni

Harold, I am glad you are here too.

I wonder how safe the slaves were during the American Revolution? I know in an earlier chapter Cokie wrote about the British trying to win the slaves to their side by offering the slaves their liberation. I suppose the British did no harm to the slaves?

I haven't read very far into our new chapters.

Tar and feathering is awful. I have seen it mentioned in books. This is the first time I really got a clear view of what tarring and feathering involved. Were the British soldiers punished for this activity?

Harold: It sounds like you have a new toy!! - your new notebook!! Sounds like fun.

I just got a new toy, too - a new cellphone. My old one was quite old and it's unbelievable what stuff the new ones can do. My son researched the phones and helped me pick out a new flip phone. It flashes pink, blue, and purple lights when it rings or vibrates without sound! I can download Classic Rock music to play as my ring - like the Layla ring in the TV ad. It takes photos PLUS VIDEOS (15 seconds) that I can send to someone's email address or to their phone. I can text message (won't be using that much.) It comes with "Blue Tooth" technology so I can talk while driving without holding the phone. (I think I'll pass on that. I'll probably kill someone on the road.)

I've spent the last 2 days reading the manual and playing. With that and my iPod, I feel like a kid!!!!!

Have fun with your laptop and good luck with your taxes!

Marni

Hi, Hats! From what I read, it didn't sound as though many slaves were safe. I've read that the British offered them their freedom if they left their patriot masters and fought for the British. But I've read that many of them were then transported to the West Indies and sold.

I was glad to read in a number of books how African Americans and freed slaves were incorporated into the Continental Army. Massachusetts and Rhode Island inducted them into their state militias. George Washington, a southern slave owner was not for having them in the army originally. But he desperately needed troops. He finally capitulated and was glad of it. I read in my new Nathanael Greene book that eventually 15% of the Continental Army was composed of African Americans.

Re - British punished for tarring and feathering - I think it was the citizens who did the tarring and feathering, not the British soldiers. The British committed other atrocities like rape and murder, burning homes, stealing and plundering, stuff like that.

Marni

When I think of the American Revolution, I think of Crispus Attucks. He was murdered during the Boston Massacre, I think. I don't know whether he had a family.

I have found some interesting things out about Kitty Greene in my new book Washington's General by Golway. It's not based on her own letters, which have been lost. Many of Nathanael's letters survive, though. (I'm calling her Kitty because that's what Cokie Roberts calls her.)

Kitty grew up in a rather free style on isolated Block Island. Her mother died when Kitty was 10 and she was sent to live in Rhode Island with her aunt Caty. Her aunt made sure Kitty learned French and she was extremely social. But her aunt did not teach her domestic skills that were expected of most colonial housewives. "...her in-laws came to regard her as useless in the practical business of running a household. Nathanael's brother Jacob and his wife, Peggy, moved in with [her] and took over the house..."

No wonder Kitty kept running off to army camp to stay with her husband, leaving the children behind! She hated running a household and was unhappy with her husband's relatives and vice versa. Kitty liked to have fun and she liked to be surrounded by men.

Apparently, Lucy Knox did not care for her very much even though they spent quite a bit of time together. But, Martha Washington liked Kitty very much and they were close friends. Kitty named her first-born George Washington Greene and her second child Martha Washington Greene.

Kitty and her husband seem to have loved each other very much. Some of the language in Nathanael's letters to Kitty is a bit racy! In one letter he reminded his wife that it had been "eight long months" since he had "tasted the pleasures of domestick felicity."

Marni

Isn't that sweet? I really like Nathaniel Greene. He always was a good and dependable soldier under George Washington's leadership.

GEEEEZZZZ i'm going to have to go out and get myself a new toy, you two are having so much fun w/ yours, i'm jealous....of course, i did get a new car recently, maybe that can surfice.

I remember reading in Imperfect God (about GW and slavery) that some slaves were made to fight by the masters, but then were expected to go back to being slaves when the war was over.....many of them did not do that, but apparently some did!! CAn you imagine? "I've fought for the freedom of the country, but now you're not going to free me???".....

Discovering one was pregnant must have been thrilling and frightening in a way we cannot imagine......thank you Margaret Sanger.....jean

For me Abigail Adams is the real giant of the Founding Mothers featured in this book. McCullough too gave her a lot of coverage in his John Adams biography. Despite her puritan past I think she really got along in Paris better than her husband. Shocked though she may have been by some of the French Theater that she attended, McCullough thinks she really enjoyed the music and even the ballet and dance presentations.

Actually John Adams was not an effective negotiator with the French. Thankfully for the new Nation, Franklin was there to handle the French. The French Aid Treaty had already been signed when John Adams arrived. John Adams did much better in Holland where he was sent to successfully negotiate the Dutch Loan. He also was successful after the peace treaty ended the Revolution as the first American Ambassador in London. Abigail in London impressed the Queen as did John when the couple attended palace diplomatic functions, At the formal presentation of the new Ambassador, King George, the professional that he was, showed no evidence of his pre-war disposition toward his former subjects.

As First Lady, Abigail, and John, as President were the first presidential couple to occupy the White House.

{{{{A new car}}}} Now, that's a toy, Jean!!!

Abigail seems quite formidable to me - a real powerhouse. But, she must have also been charming for someone like Thomas Jefferson to have been on such good terms with her. She was certainly brilliant. It does sound like she did all right in Paris with the cultured and sophisticated French, after being so worried about embarrassing her husband.

What strength she had! Can you imagine going through a night of shaking and then thinking your unborn child might have died and then giving birth to a stillborn baby with your husband far away?

-------------------------------------

I was thinking of some of the other crises the founding women faced during the war....like Annis Boudinot Stockton, Richard Stockton's wife....(She was a poet.) She was the woman whose home, Morven, Cornwallis took over & much of it was destroyed; she hid her husband's important papers. Eventually, her husband was captured and imprisoned, one of the terrors these woman had to worry about. It sounds like Richard Stockton was tortured in captivity and was a broken man. He swore an oath to the king, was released finally, but never again participated in rebel events.

There must have been a lot of that kind of thing going on that we just don't read about.

Here is Morven, the Stockton home, which today is a National Historic Landmark and museum owned by the state of New Jersey: http://www.historicmorven.org/

And remember Catherine Schuyler, the wife of Gen. Philip Schuler and mother-in-law of Alexander Hamilton? She burned their wheat fields so the British couldn’t use the wheat. That's courage. She must have wondered what her own family might eat.

So many of the founding mothers had men who were imprisoned or were maimed in battle or who died in battle. So many homes were taken over by the enemy or burned or pillaged, food taken. It must have been so frightening trying to figure out how you were going to eat and survive. And some of the women, like some in South Carolina, were very isolated. War is always terrible, but what a terrible ordeal facing war in your own land.

Marni

I feel I need a change of mood to lighten things up. Cokie Roberts had a wonderful and wry sense of humor in the book. She told many amusing anecdotes.

One of my favorites is the story of Martha Washington naming her tomcat "Hamilton" after Alexander Hamilton, who was rather a tomcat in his own way, loving the ladies.

Were there any amusing anecdotes that struck your fancy?

Yes, I like my Madeira story. I was going to post it earlier, but I dropped the book in a place where I can't reach it. I'll have to wait until my son gets home to fill in the details, but roughly, it's like this:

After the defeat in New York, the American army was trying to get away. The British were chasing them, and since the Americans were heavily outnumbered, being caught could have been fatal. Fortunately for us, the British stopped at a farm to get something to drink. Their hostess plied them with so much Madeira, that they tarried while the Americans slipped away past them. She saved the American army.(I'll post her name when I get the book back).

So, it's not only aging Casanovas who use Madeira for nefarious purposes. I wonder if she murmured "Have some Madeira my dear" as she gave the general his third glass.

So let's all drink a toast to whats-her-name. Cheers.

WELCOME SAUCY!! Pull up a chair and make yourself at home.

JoanK - I liked that story about whats-her-name also. And if we drink enough toasts to her, her name wouldn't matter anyway. (Mrs. Murray, I think. Don't think that her given name was mentioned, but I could be wrong)

I was amused by Cokie's writing of Catherine Littlefield Greene's family. They were so high spirited that the women actually wore pants for riding. Imagine!

Marni - thank you for all the sites. I haven't checked them all as yet as am trying to catch up with the book.

Welcome, Saucy. Hope you find a book soon and join the discussion.

Saucy - Since your email is not visible, I would like to invite you to subscribe to Book Bytes, a monthly email newsletter about books here in SeniorNet. Write to BookBytes@seniornet.org.

I come by frequently reading the posts even though I haven't been able to keep up with this discussion.

Your posts...all of them...have cemented within me the vow to make this book my primary summer reading and I will print out the posts so that wherever I am while reading the book I'll also have them with me.

I am still participating at a minumum level in the My Name Is Red discussion, Turkey and Ottoman history being very dear to my soul and also because I had to borrow 'Red' from the library and it is due on March 17 whereas I bought Founding Mothers because I knew not only that I want to read it but hopefully my daughters and grandaughters will also. And I want to read it when I can give it my full attention!

Before I go back to 'Red' I have to tell you Marni that I loved your accounting of the 'Hamilton tomcat'...

And JoanK...as Madeira is one of my most cherished 'desserts' I loved your 'Madeira story'!!

See you all 'on the trail'...Hugs, Alliemae

pass it on to the sons and grandsons also, they need to know about how much women have contributed to our history as well....jean

Mabel...you are wonderful!! You are so unfailingly and faithfully and dependably everything that a feminist is in my mind and I truly appreciate you!!

Alliemae

JoanK and Marylin: Yes, the Madeira lady was Mrs. Robert Murray, the wife of a Quaker New York surgeon, and her first name wasn't mentioned. That was a good story! Cheers, Mrs. Murray!

Alliemae: As you can see from the reaction in our discussion, Founding Mothers is a wonderful book. I know you'll enjoy it.

Another anecdote I enjoyed - about Kitty Greene, of course - was when Kitty made an army uniform that she wore to celebrate the victory of the freeing of Charleston from the British.

I enjoyed reading about Catharine Sawbridge Macaulay Graham who shocked everyone when she married a man ½ her age & toured America with him, creating a buzz.

Then there's the one about Ben Franklin who wrote to Caty Greene how it was the French custom to kiss a lady on her neck because it was rude to kiss on the lips but the ladies didn't want men to kiss their cheeks so not to disturb their “paint.” Can you just picture that today - a man being introduced to you kissing you on your neck!!

I also got a kick out of hearing that 4 of Catherine Schuyler's daughters jumped out of the window and eloped. Sounds like some wild children! Catherine's daughter, Betsey, was one of the girls who hung around the army trying to get a glimpse of the handsome rake, Alexander Hamilton.

By the way, here's a drawing of Hamilton made during the Revolution: http://images.nypl.org/?id=424506&t=w

Here's a picture of Betsey Schuyler, the "plain" daughter in the family, who did marry her love, Hamilton: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-082.jpg

Here's a painting of Angelica Schuyler Church, Betsey's sister, and possibly one of Alexander Hamilton's lovers: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/church/images/ascport.jpg

Here's a picture of General Philip Schuyler, Catherine's husband and Betsey's father: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-112.jpg

And here's a picture of the Schuyler home near Albany, "The Pastures." Scroll down to see a painting of Catherine Schuyler: http://www.fortklock.com/schuylermansion.htm

Marni

Thanks for the kind welcome. Went to the local library this morning and checked the book out--mine until the 31st. Will read and try to keep up with your discussion. Need to look online and order me one as both daughters I think will want to read the book. I also checked out 1776 while at the library.

Jean-thanks for the kind words about my daughter. She started out in Elementary but loves Middle School. Bev (Saucy)

Is it my imagination or does Alexander Hamilton's looks have a similarity to Philip Schuyler? Ummmmm, fits my theory of "we marry our opposite gender parent!!"

Alex sounds like someone who might be a great guy to have as a friend, but not a husband!....

These stories of more and more courageous women are so wonderful, thank you Cokie Roberts and thank you Marni and Joan for getting us all to read it....jean

Saucy,

I also would like to welcome you. Enjoy!

What on earth is that on Alexander Hamilton's hat?

Yes, a handsome rake doesn't sound like a good bet as a husband!!

That is quite the uniform Alexander Hamilton is wearing in the picture. In particular that hat seems out of the ordinary. In any case I can't remember seeing anything quite like it in North America during the revolution at any rate. And the white pants may have been fine for the ballroom, but certainly not the field?

Hamilton was never the subject of my particular interest but based on my Senior's Net readings over the past several years I am now viewing him with increasing interest. Incidentally of the eleven stories in the Joseph Ellis, "Founding Fathers" book, I found the story of the Burr- Hamilton duel the most interesting. After that Ella spent some effort looking for a Burr biography to offer for discussion. Though there are a number in print, there were none that was judged sufficiently o outstanding.

" And the white pants may have been fine for the ballroom, but certainly not the field?"

If any of you like to read the "Master and commander" series about the British navy around 1800, The officers after months at sea might don their dress uniforms which included white pants when visiting a higher officers ship. I can't imagine what those white pants looked like by the end of the voyage!!

As I mentioned in the 1776 discussion, I was once present on the White House lawn when the president greeted Nelson Mandela. There was a concert by the fife and drum core, wearing formal revolutionary war uniforms -- which included white tights. While those were clean, there are very few middle-aged men who can wear white tights and look good (or women -- I sure wouldn't want to try it).

I found this info about uniforms of the Continental Army. Many of the uniforms have buff-colored pants. Alexander Hamilton was a captain of an artillery unit & also was aide-de-camp to the Commander-in-Chief (Hamilton moved up to Lt. Col.)

Uniforms of the Continental Artillery: http://www.srcalifornia.com/uniforms/r5.htm

"Artillerymen were the elite troops of this era. The need for a knowledge of mathematics and engineering made them a cut above other army branches. The uniform reflected the distinction; it was virtually the same in any army world wide."

http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/rw_e801.html

picture of aide-de-camp to Commander-in-Chief uniform plus others: http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/revwar3.html

I stumbled across this about Hamilton's infantry unit: "Capt. Alexander Hamilton's New York Provincial Co'y of Artillery September, 1776: Dark blue coats with buff facings, buff waistcoats and leather breeches mark Hamilton's artillery. Raised by the State of New York for the defense of New York City, they are unusually well uniformed, partly out of the pocket of their captain, the young Alexander Hamilton, later to become the first U.S. Secretary of the Treasury. Hamilton' s is the only U.S. military unit of any type to have an unbroken line of service from the war of the Revolution to the present U. S. Army. Today, this unit is battery " D" , 5th field Artillery, 1st Infantry Division, stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas. They are known today as 'Hamilton' s Cannoners.'"

http://www.nwta.com/FldGd/congress.html#Hamilton

plume: A large feather or cluster of feathers worn as an ornament or symbol of rank, as on a helmet. A token of honor or achievement.

http://www.qmfound.com/changes_in_the_army_uniform_1895.htm

Marni

JoanK: I agree about the white. White makes one look heavier!! They must have looked horribly dirty immediately!

The French uniforms were all white in pictures I've seen - white jacket, vest, and pants and tights.

That picture of Hamilton with the helmet and plume looks like one of the Continental Artillery helmets. Here's the picture of Hamilton again. He's standing near a large gun.

http://images.nypl.org/?id=424506&t=w

The top knot on the hat in the Hamilton picture is no doubt a plume of feathers. Several of the uniform hats in the article linked bay Marni in #418 also include plumes.

Apparently metal helmets were not used during the period. Though they had been used in medieval times apparently the coming of fire arms had rendered them useless, until the late 19 Century. Did either side use iron helmets during the American Civil war? I don’t recall them from the old pictures.

#3 What were some of the economic problems that the women had to contend with during wartime?

One thing we read about was the decline of the dollar, inflation. Americans couldn't buy the same goods with their dollar that they could before the war. (I read in another book that by 1779 the dollar was worth only 3 cents.) Prices of goods flew sky high. Merchants hoarded goods. So, not only was the Continental Army unable to buy clothing and food etc for the soldiers, but the women at home were unable to buy the things they needed. Also, because of the British blockades of ports, European and West Indian products were unavailable.

Another economic problem the women at home had to deal with was the shortage of farm hands. Many of the men were off to war. America was basically an agricultural society except for some of the port cities and towns. Without men to help farm the land, women had to handle the field labor themselves, fewer crops were grown resulting in a smaller harvest. And of course, in some areas where war was waged, both the British and the American armies scavenged the country, stealing crops and animals or burning them. Some people starved to death.

Marni

Harold: I roamed around on the internet hunting for metal Civil War helmets and found none. (Doesn't mean there aren't any.)

Here's a site with illustrations of all kinds of Civil War uniforms: http://howardlanham.tripod.com/illist.html

Marni

I'd like to meet the bird that produced that plume.

The gun in the drawing is interesting. Scroll down in this website:

http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.html

to see photographs of the artillary used.

Marni and JoanK,

I am trying catch up with posts and my reading. I didn't realize the wives of Patriots were put in jail. Elizabeth Lewis is one woman I have read about. She spent months in a British prison. She was there so long, her health deteriorated. These women really did go through a lot of major suffering. I hate to think what the prison might have been like as far as sanitary conditions and how the women were treated by the British while they were in prison.

Joan: What a fascinating article about artillery! Now I can picture the different kinds of shot used. I saw a number of different sizes of artillery pieces on display at West Point, including a carronade. I don't think I've ever seen a brass cannon, though. (I remember in the Master and Commander series, Jack Aubrey prized his 2 brass 9-pounders.)

I had no idea that Henry Knox made Springfield, Mass. (my birth place!) the center for gun production during the Revolution. I can certainly understand how some guns (and men) blew up as Knox experimented with the guns from Fort Ticonderoga during the siege of Boston. Artillery use really was a science.

Hats: That was a sad and surprising story about Elizabeth Lewis losing her health in a British prison. You'd think that women would be treated differently. It doesn't sound like any prisons during the Revolution were a decent place to stay. Many many thousands died from terrible conditions in prisons during the Revolution.

I mentioned in the 1776 discussion that I toured Old Newgate Prison in Granby, CT, which was a copper mine converted to a prison where some British and Loyalist prisoners were held during the Revolution. It was literally an underground mine, tunnels dug out of rock, moisture dripping down, dark, and awful. It was extremely shocking to think that men had to live down there. Eventually, the prisoners were forced to build several prison buildings above ground where some of the prisoners were held.

Marni

I just read an interesting article in today's Hartford Courant. The National Park Service is considering a proposal to make the entire Washington-Rochambeau route from Rhode Island to Yorktown a National Historic Trail. The French had landed soldiers in Rhode Island. In 1781 they marched across CT where Rochambeau's army was to meet up with Washington's in White Plains, NY. The story of the march is being told this year in CT, commemorating the 225th anniversary of the march and Yorktown victory, in 12 detailed "panels" which will mark significant camps and crossings along the route in CT.

One French soldier wrote in his journal: "Enchanted to find charming young ladies in our midst, our generals and colonels had the musicians play each evening and invited the girls to dance." The French soldiers wore wigs and tight-fitting woolen underwear (ouch!) and carried about 60 pounds of equipment plus their muskets. Most were in their 20's. The French soldiers were there for "Glory, honor, the opportunity to make a name for oneself, a chance to escape creditors and parents..."

The panels are fiberglass mounted in steel frames and include paintings, photos of historic buildings, maps, place descriptions, and anecdotes about French-Yankee encounters. One anecdote tells a story of the Josiah Bronson Tavern where Rochambeau and some French officers stayed the night. The proprietor had to lock up his daughter, Esther, to stop her from eloping with a French officer!

One of the sponsors helping to pay for the panels is the Society of the Cincinnati! So, it still exists!

Panel images are going to be posted this spring on www.cultureandtourism.com.

History of the Society of the Cincinnati: http://www.hereditary.us/cin_history.htm

I saw in another SeniorNet discussion that there is another society I had never heard of before, the United Empire Loyalists. It is made up of descendents of Loyalist who fled to Canada during/after the Revolution and stayed there. The site has a most fascinating history! The American Loyalists changed Canadian history.

United Empire Loyalists History: http://www.uelac.org/loyalist.pdf

United Empire Loyalists Homepage: http://www.uelac.org/index.html

"Patriot authorities punished Loyalists who spoke their views too loudly by stripping them of their property and goods and banishing them on pain of death should they ever return. They coerced others into silence with threats. Throughout the Thirteen Colonies that were under Patriot control, Loyalists could not vote, sell land, sue debtors, or work as lawyers, doctors, or schoolteachers. To be fair, in Loyalist-controlled areas, supporters of the Revolution met with similar treatment at the hands of British authorities. Approximately 70,000 Loyalists fled the Thirteen Colonies. Of these, roughly 50,000 went to the British North American Colonies of Quebec and Nova Scotia."

Speaking of Loyalists, wasn't that a sad story about Lucy Flucker Knox. Her family were loyalists & opposed to her marriage to Henry Knox. When the British left Boston, her family left the country & she never saw them again; she missed them. There must have been so many families like that - just like in our Civil War - families with allegiances on different sides and who fought against each other or never saw each other again.

-----------------------------

Hats: I found a bit more info about women prisoners: "During the American Revolution thousands of women took an active role in both the American and British armies. Most were the wives or daughters of officers or soldiers. These women, who maintained an almost constant presence in military camps, were known as "camp followers." Here at Stony Point Battlefield, there were 52 women who were captured with the British garrison on the night of July 15, 1779 by the American Corps of Light Infantry. In spite of the fact that these women were not considered to be part of the army they were still included in the list of British prisoners taken at Stony Point. Because women frequently did not serve any military function during the war, their individual names were never listed in the records of the day and are therefore unknown to us."

http://www2.lhric.org/spbattle/wohist.html

While hunting for info about women prisoners, I came across this article which has info about women's participation in the Revolution: http://colonialancestors.com/revolutionary/women.htm

I read some interesting info about Lafayette's wife. Lafayette had to flee France for his life during the French Revolution. He was captured in Austria and thrown into an Austrian prison for years. His wife and daughter went and stayed in prison with him. His wife lost her health there. After they were freed (with help from America), she never regained her health and died not long afterward.

Marni,

Thank you for the links. It is so sad knowing the British imprisoned women. What you have written about Lafayette's wife is very interesting. These women were so loyal to their husbands. Through thick and thin the women endured.

I have just finished reading about the courtship and marriage of Esther DeBert and Joseph Reed. She had to move from place to place, live without Joseph Reed when he became secretary to Gen. Washington. Then, she lost her little girl to smallpox.

I hate to even guess at the number of children and adults who must have died during the smallpox epidemic.

Cokie Roberts, I think, gives a clear and detailed picture of the lives of these women. For too long it has been like the Revolutionary War, the fight for independence, was a fight the men fought, when really, the women were fighting too, in so many different ways.

MARNI: thanks for the link to the revolutionary women. I recognized most of them from FM, but some were new. For every one whose name we know, there were probably ten who are lost to history.

The founding mothers had to put up with almost everything!! BUT, did they get tangled up in government red tape? If you don't see me again, look for me under a pile of incomprehensible forms. HELP!

I've been in JJAudubon and 1776 and now FM discussion and in each one i have felt connected in some way. I mentioned in JJA that I grew up in Shippensburg, PA. Yes, it was named for the same Edward Shippen who was the father of Peggy. I don't think he ever lived there, it was probably a land speculation for him, as we know that WAshington, Jefferson and Franklin all invested in such land speculation. I'll have to check w/ the local historical society to see if i can varify that. BUT, when i was growing up there, there was a Peggy Shippen Stationary Shop, cute little store, owned by a sweet women who probably tho't it was a cute name attaching it to S-burg......I'll jsut bet she had no idea that PS was married to Benedict Arnold!! I didn't realize it until after i was an adult and had studied much history.

CR talks about Esther REed escaping the Brits by moving to Burlington, NJ which is just 10 mi north of where i live, and then moving to Evesham, which is about 3 mi east of me.

Since you are talking about the plight of wives, let me once again recommend "The Virginia Exiles" a novel by Elizabeth Vining about Quaker men from the South Jersey and PHiladelphia area who owned iron foundries, but, being pacifists, refused to make cannons and cannon balls, etc. for the Continentals. They were sent to prison in Virginia. There wives gathered supplies for them, made many trips to Va, kept the homefires going as well as they could and petitioned over and over again for their release, which was finally arranged. It is a novel, but based on fact.

Yes, Joan, we have to dig a little deeper to find out about women's lives, but fortunately in the last 3 decades scholars and writers have been doing that, so a Martian reading our history books today would not think that only white men lived in our world. In the mid-70's I was in a discussion about how textbooks presented womem. When I came home i went to my book shelf of high school history texts to analyze them. In the American history text that was for the highest academic student there were 800+ pages in the book................ARE YOU READY FOR THIS?........only 50 SENTENCES talked about women.... Susan B Anthony and EC Stanton were on a side bar AND what it said about Eleanor Roosevelt was "Franklin married his cousin Eleanor!!!" Now, Eleanor had not been dead for many years at that point and was probably STILL the most famous woman in the WORLD........we have improved from that point, thank goodness and a lot of women and men like CR are digging and writing and we - and the Martians - can know that women and people of color were important actors in our history....jean

JoanK: Sounds like it's tax season!! Ugh!! We've been using Turbo Tax, which is pretty great.

Jean: I keep relating to these books, too! Benedict Arnold was born and raised in Norwich, CT, just north of my home town of New London. So, it was especially grievous for the people of New London when Arnold turned traitor and then burned down New London during the Revolution - practically a home town boy.

Wasn't that quite a story about pretty spoiled Peggy Shippen when her husband was found out, fled West Point, and she did her acting routine for Alexander Hamilton and George Washington! They felt so sorry for her as she sobbed and cried - oh, boo hoo! After her husband escaped, he wrote a letter to Washington about how Peggy didn't know anything about the plot or Major Andre. Hah! Meanwhile, Andre had been her friend and spy buddy, teaching her how to write in code and with invisible ink to send information to the British! Finally, she was found out and kicked out of Philadelphia.

Apparently, she and Benedict never were accepted into English society when they escaped to England and lived there after the war. I guess his business deals went bad and he was hounded by bad luck for the rest of his life. But Peggy got a pension from the British govt. for her role as a spy. But she didn't get to live in the lavish style she desired.

Marni

Hats: Wasn't that quite a story about Esther DeBerdt Reed! I thought it was so interesting that she and Joseph Reed had such a long-standing relationship before they finally got married - and sometimes a very long-distance relationship, at that!

Esther gave us a very different picture from other women we've discussed. Esther was English - from London - and fell in love with an American, eventually moving from England to America with her husband and becoming an ardently patriotic American. It seems to me she would have been in a particularly difficult position during the war, having friends and relatives back in England, even her brother. At least her mother came to America with her. Plus it must have been hard moving from the big city to what must have seemed a small place in comparison - Philadelphia.

Then Esther had to move around a bunch of times, as Hats mentioned, because the British were on her husband's tail. They plundered her home. Her husband joined the army without consulting her (AAAGGGHHHHH - Can you imagine!!!!). She found out 3 horses were killed under him in the war. He was right in the midst of it. Then Esther's two-year old daughter died of smallpox right before her baby boy was born.

Jean: Did you see Esther named her last-born son George Washington? Lafayette named his son George Washington, too!

Esther was quite a gal! She was elected leader of the Ladies’ Association of Philadelphia. Esther wrote the article “The Sentiments of an American Woman” which was published in a Philadelphia newspaper in 1780 – it urged women to raise money and to sacrifice for the armies by doing things like dressing less extravagantly. Esther kept records of her Association's fund drive – they collected money door to door for the soldiers. Esther spearheaded the effort & devised the means of collections; plus she got other towns to participate. Women in other towns followed the Philadelphia women's example after reading Esther's article in their newspapers.

I enjoyed reading about the power struggle between Esther and George Washington over what to do with the money collected in the drive. He wanted the money used to buy linen for shirts for soldiers (how practical - they did sound quite naked). The women wanted it earmarked for something special for the soldiers - something that Congress would not pay for. One idea was a reward such as $2 in gold for every soldier. Washington probably was using some common sense and knowledge of the men when he felt they'd just squander the money on liquor.

The ladies gave in to Washington, but were able to add their special touch - they bought the linen, but when they made the shirts, they sewed their names (initials?) on them so the soldiers knew where they came from.

Sadly, Esther died suddently of dysentery at age 33 when her youngest child was only 4 months old.

Marni

I also enjoyed reading about Kitty Green dancing three hours straight with George Washington. I could not believe it. Can you imagine? In my young day, I could not dance that long without falling onto my partner's feet.

Marni, JoanK or Mabel might have already posted about the dance.

Harold, could you dance that long?

Just wanted a man's viewpoint.

Marni,

Earlier, I could not comment on poor Esther's death by dysentery. How sad! She had a four month old baby at the time. She worked so hard to get out the word about the collecting of money for the men.

I had to laugh at how many times she tried to get her opinion across to Gen. Washington about spending the money. She was very bold or courageous.

Everytime I write Gen. Washington, I am tempted to write President Washington. When did we begin to call these men president? Was it after the War of Independence?

I am annoyed when the powers that be decide they are going to war and then don't provide, thru gov't funds, all that is needed by the troops. Every time i see the ad from Chris Matthews, et al, about giving contributions for a rehabilitation center for disabled vets, i could scream! If i have given my time energy and parts of my body to the gov't/country, then they have an obligation to take care of me - IMO. I think it is generous of people to want to set up these contributions - as the women did in the Rev'y War - but it irritates me that it is necessary........jean

Hats: I'm just reading an incredibly astonishing biography of George Washington - An Imperfect God: George Washington, His Slaves, and the Creation of America by Henry Wiencek. In a number of quotes in the book, Washington is called "General Washington" even after he was president. I think people thought of Washington in terms of his military experience. He first became well-known in America because of his published journal of his experiences while in the Virginia militia and then as aide to British Gen. Braddock in the French and Indian War. Later he was Commander-in-Chief of the Virginia militia. Even later, of course, he was Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army. People thought of him as a military man even though for much of his life he was a Virginia planter.

-------------------------------------

In Founding Mothers, we read that George Washington did not want his mother, Mary, to move in with him and Martha, even though he had invited Martha’s mother to live at Mt. Vernon. I wondered why. What was George's relationship with his mother?

The biography I'm now reading has a bit of interesting info about Washington's mother. Mary Ball was Augustine Washington's 2nd wife. Her husband died suddenly at age 49 in 1743 "after catching a chill in a sudden downpour while riding his horse" "in circumstances eerily predictive of his son's death..." Mary was left with 5 children to raise. George was her oldest. (He had 2 older half-brothers, Lawrence and Austin, sons of his father's 1st wife, who were out on their own.)

"Mary Washington's influence on her son may be seen in Washington's strict self-discipline and abhorrence of waste - traits that might well have been drilled into him by a widowed mother suddenly left in pinched circumstances. One of the Washington cousins later gave a description of Mary and claimed that the general's daunting manner came from her: 'Whoever has seen that awe-inspiring air and manner so characteristic in the Father of his Country, will remember the matron...the presiding genius of her well-ordered household, commanding and being obeyed.' The cousin added, 'of the mother I was ten times more afraid than I ever was of my own parents.' In her presence, he said, the Washington sons, 'proper tall fellows...were all mute as mice.'"

Marni

Marni - do you have the hard copies of FM and Imp God? I took the paper covers off of each to protect the covers and low and behold, the hard covers are almost identical - same size, same colors! I recognized it when i tho't i was picking up IG and had FM. ......just a quirky co-incidence......jean

I read something else rather interesting about wives in An Imperfect God. "At that time life spans were so short and remarriages so common that Virginians devised the term 'now-wife' to designate the current wife, as opposed to former or future wives. The Washingtons had use for the term....the union of John [George's great-grandfather] and Frances Washington represented the culmination of eight marriages altogether." [John Washington married a 2-times-married widow, Anne Brett; when she died, he married her sister, 3-times-married widow, Frances Appleton.]

Hi, Jean! No, I have the hard-back of An Imperfect God but the paper-back of Founding Mothers.

Could the binding be the same just because it's the same publishing company? I have many books with very similar bindings from the same pub. co. Maybe it's in some sort of non-fiction series?

Marni

Jean: Oops, nope. It says inside my paperback of FM that it originally was published in hard-back by HarperCollins.

My hard-back of AIG is published by Farrar, Straus, & Giroux.

There is now a book out called "First Mothers" and there has been other books that talk about presidential mothers. i find it interesting that Washington and Jefferson seemed to have very bad feelings toward their mothers and that we don't hear much about Adams' mother in his bio. But in reading "First Mothers" i found it interesting in reading about the presidents from FDR forward that they were almost all very influenced by their mothers. It was the mother who got them interested in politics, or who encouraged them to pursue whatever they wanted and especially supported their political lives. Mother Roosevelt was very overbearing, but told FDR he could do no wrong, giving him an amazing self-confidence, which IMO he transferred to the country during it's two major crises.

Also, interesting to me in that book was that most of those mothers had been very supported and encouraged by their FATHERS. So, that some of them had been educated and learned self-confidence because of their fathers encouragement. What can we learn from those stories?

Who is reading the Greene bio? Marni, is it you? I would be curious if there is any discussion about his mother........jean

I just finished the Greene bio. I don't even remember anything about Greene's mother! I hope that's more because there was little said about her and not just my poor brain!!! There was more about the influence of his father, who was strict, and his religion, Quakerism.

Lincoln's mother and step-mother were other mothers who strongly influenced a son. Lincoln's mother died when he was....11, I think. He apparently was devastated. His step-mother sounds like the opposite of the evil fairy-tale step-mother. She encouraged him to the max to read and teach/better himself. Sounds like she loved him a great deal. The author of <Team of Rivals suggests that Lincoln's father may have beaten him.

Sounds like Lincoln got his genius from his real mother. She was supposed to have been extremely intelligent. Sounds like he got his story-telling ability from his father.

Everyone: Have you noticed the changing pictures of Discussion Leaders in the Header of the Book Nook?

We're interested in seeing everybody's photo there!! It's been fun to see what people we "talk to" look like! If you are interested in adding your digital photo of yourself, please email your picture to one or the other of the following 2 email addresses. (Just click on one or the other and an email page should pop up with the address filled in.)

Patwest

or

Joan Grimes

Thanks!

Marni

Peggy was something, wasn't she. As was Arnold. I notice he had already been in trouble for corruption before he became a spy!

Interesting that Martha Washington seemed to like Kitty even after the dancing incident! I suspect Kitty was a little too popular with the men to be popular with some of the women. But since I don't have a husband in camp, I think she's great.

Someone mentioned Eleanor Roosevelt, whom I have always admired. Her mother-in-law was a real tartar. Eleanor's son, Eliot, wrote a series of detective stories in which Eleanor is the detective. His depiction of the relationship between E. and mil is very funny.

That is so Funny! Eleanor's son writing detective stories with his mother as the detective! They must have had a good relationship.

I got such a chuckle out of that marathon dance scene. It sounds like the officers and their ladies had quite a time during winter recess from war. Sounds like a lot of drinking and carousing went on. I bet a lot of wild stuff happened that was never recorded.

You know, I found in the bio about Nathanael Greene that he played a big role in getting his wife to join the group during the winters. In his letters, he literally Begged his wife to join him. He wanted some of that "marital felicity." He even brought up other women in camp to make her jealous to entice her there. So it wasn't just her hating to stay home with the in-laws, the housekeeping, and the kids that caused her to leave everything behind and join the men for months at a time.

Poor Kitty. She ALWAYS ended up pregnant after the winter flings at army camp. She and Nate were pretty fertile. She had 6 children (1 died after Kitty had an accidental fall and she miscarried) in approx. 10 or 11 years of marriage. And she had hard pregnancies often getting very sick.

Wouldn't you think the women would have put their foot down?? No More Sex!

Marni, I can't wait to read "An Imperfect God: I am going to read it almost as soon as possible. That is very interesting about the term "now wife."

Now I know why the term general is used for General Washington. I never related it to military service.

Mabel, I feel the same way. Why should women work so hard for what the military should, on their own, supply the men. I liked learning that the women did put their name on the shirts. I wonder if there is a painting of one of those shirts somewhere with a woman's name on it.

I have written the Elizabeth Vining title down.

JoanK, why did Peggy Shippen do it? Did her love for BA lead her to do anything, even spy? Why did they hang the other guy and not BA? It doesn't seem like any one of the Arnolds felt any remorse after getting caught. I couldn't believe BA's mischief even included selling out West Point, if his plan had worked. Did I read the story about West Point correctly?

This reminds me....I read something interesting about George Washington in this new bio I'm reading. The author read through all kinds of documents. The first thing Washington ordered after he married Martha was...GET THIS....SPANISH FLY!!!

The author wrote that this suggests George and Martha had a good physical relationship. I was wondering if it meant George was impotent?? She had already had 3 children. They never had any together. I had thought he was sterile. But, WHO KNOWS??

Marni,

I have heard in tough times, like the Depression or war, the pregnancy rate goes up. That seems impossible during wartime. I guess it's counting when men come home from war.

JoanK,

I have seen and heard of those mysteries with Eleanor Franklin and son. Now I will try one. I have seen the series at my library.

What is SPANISH FLY? Is it birth control?

Hi, Hats! John Andre was hanged after he was caught because he wasn't wearing his uniform and he was found carrying the secret papers from Arnold. He was technically a spy. Various people pleaded on his behalf to shoot him to death instead of hanging him. Apparently, it was more gentlemanly or something to be shot rather than be hanged.??

I'm sure Benedict Arnold would have been killed if he had been caught. But he escaped from the Americans to a British ship. He joined the British army as a general and carried out deeds of war against the rebels. He was a turncoat.

Peggy Arnold....I wonder what was going on in her mind. She wanted to live a high lifestyle. She was used to it because her family had money. Arnold didn't have a lot of money. He went into debt after he married Peggy who spent money like it was going out of style. That was one of the reasons Arnold defected. The British paid him for the West Point information.

I wonder if Peggy earned money from her spying before her husband was caught?? She got that pension later on from the British government.

Marni

Spanish fly is a drug made from the Spanish fly. It was apparently thought to be an aphrodisiac and had the reputation of arousing or increasing sexual desire, or libido or improving sexual performance.

According to Wikipedia: "The Spanish fly is an emerald-green beetle Lytta vesicatoria, (from Greek lytta = rage and Latin vesica = blister) in the family Meloidae. It is still sometimes referred to as Cantharis vesicatoria, but the genus Cantharis is in an unrelated family, Cantharidae....

The beetle contains up to 5% cantharidin. The powder made from dried and crushed beetle has been used as an aphrodisiac, under the mistaken impression that the urinary irritation created was sexual arousal. When the powder is ingested by human males, as it is excreted by the kidneys, it irritates the urinary tract causing spectacular swelling, called priapism, but this is painful and does not result in arousal.

Its medical use dates back to descriptions from Hippocrates. So-called "cantharides" is currently used, as a potentized ingredient of homeopathic medicine....A similar powder from Myalabris beetles (also in the Meloidae), called "vuka-vuka" (vuka = wake up), is known in Zimbabwe....

It is one of the world’s most famous aphrodisiacs. In Roman times Emperor Nero's wife would slip it into food, hoping to inspire her guests to some indiscretion with which she could later blackmail them.

Marquis de Sade is claimed to have given bonbons laced with Spanish fly to prostitutes at an orgy in 1772. He was sentenced to death for poisoning and sodomy, but later reprieved on appeal."

Marni

Marni,

Peggy Shippen was a Quaker, right? She must have disgraced her family.

I just feel that she and BA had the chance or luck to get across the sea to Britain and live without suffering one tiny bit for their betrayal of the Patriots.

I think the Arnolds did suffer, though. They were not accepted into British society. Nobody likes a turncoat, even if he comes over to your own side. Also, they were not wealthy because Benedict had trouble with his business enterprises.

They must have been unhappy. Peggy must have been used to being the center of attention back in America - wealthy family, connections, high Philadelphia society, husband in an influential military position in the Continental army.....all gone. Peggy's family was back in the states. So was Arnold's. Everyone despised him. He is America's most notorious traitor.

Has anyone read a biography of Benedict Arnold or of Peggy?

That's true. They were not accepted in British society. Later they might have felt some guilt too. What if games always play about in our minds.

and the info we can learn about,,,never would have guessed that Spanish fly would be one of them - tehee, tehee, that's one of my favorite things about these discussions!

Some where in my past reading, maybe in one of Joseph Ellis' books the author implied that Arnold was upset at not being promoted faster, especially after he married Peggy and had run up a large debt. There was also the implication that Peggy encouraged him in his anger at the Continental command group. She obviously wanted more money and more prestige also. ......

Marni - i sent my picture to Joan for the bulletin board. I am the picture-taker in my family, so i don't have a recent candid shot of myself. I sent a formal one that they take at church, hope there wasn't a rule about that - candid shots, i mean.....jean

Oh, Jean, that's terrific! A formal picture certainly is fine. I imagine some of us sent in something informal just because that's all we had. I wish I had had a better picture. But it's really fun seeing our members! Thank you!

Marni

I don't have a digital camera or a scanner. I can describe myself but I might get into embellishment.

We'll have to meet for coffee one day, Hats, and take each other's pictures, or get somebody else to do it. Don't know when we'll get it done, though. Already this week and next are filled up. When did THIS happen?!? We never do anything! Oh, well - one day, it WILL happen.

Can you take my picture off my preference page? That'd work for me.

HATS: tell me if you enjoy the Roosevelt series. They aren't great books, but are interesting because of Elinor. The one with the MIL in it I think is called "Murder at Hyde Park".

Spanish fly, hmmm. Poor George --when you're famous you don't have any private life at all, do you?

I sent a picture of me and my sister (PatH). But I forgot to tell her I was doing it. Don't squeal on me until I have a chance to tell her.

They are light, but fun and interesting. When he discusses Winston Churchill, i have to wonder "was Winnie really like that, for Elliot would have known him." Yes, i think they are great fun....amd Hats, i think you SHOULD describe yourself, give us a verbal picture and feel free to embellish.......

.jean

Yes, HATS, PLEASE DO!!

Hats: embellishment - I don't think you could embellish enough! I'm so glad you're in our discussion. I love your sense of humor. It's nice to be sitting at my computer with a big smile on my face. I'm still smiling thinking about your foot tapping listening to fifes and drums from the 1776 discussion.

JoanK: I'm so glad you sent the picture! I'm going to have to go check the Book Nook and see if our technical folks had a chance to add any more pictures! This is exciting!

Hats and Mary Z: Isn't it strange how fast everything is moving. Just yesterday, I thought it was cool to buy a throw-away camera. Now it's digital cameras. Before I get used to something, something else comes along. I'm starting to get worked up about digital TV. I guess we'll have to get one of those or a converter box or we won't even be able to watch TV.

My son just bought me a funny thing - a portable automatic can opener. It sits in a charger when not in use. You can carry the can opener anywhere to use it. You clamp it onto a can and let go. It whirls all by itself around the can and stops when the top is all cut open.

Joan: Your picture is there! I love that picture! Who did you say was with you in the picture?

Mary Z: I'll see if they can use your preference page picture. I bet they can.

Jean: I don't see your picture yet. I'll check.

Well, it's 12:33 a.m. EST. Here we are in Week 3 of our discussion already! I was just finishing off my glass of madeira when I discovered that Patwest has posted the Week 3 questions in our Header.

Thanks, Pat!!

We're all set to discuss Chpt 5: “1782 – 1787: Peace and Diplomacy” and Chpt 6: “1787 – 1789: Constitution and the First Election.”

As my last post before heading off to bed, I thought I'd type a description of a new coach that Martha and George Washington ordered. This can give you more of a picture of Martha driving in her coach down the road towards her husband. It's from An Imperfect God by Henry Wiencek. Here goes:

George ordered the coach (from England) to be "in the newest taste, handsome, genteel and light...made of the best Seasond Wood, and by a celebrated Workman"...with a new arrangement of steel springs....The coach was to be green with a light gilding and other ornamentation and the Washington coat of arms was to be engraved....

The "new handsome Chariot" arrived made of the best materials, handsomely carved. It had "arches and scrolls; the sides, roof, and back gleamed with polished japanned paint; painted flowers adorned the panels of the doors; the frame glittered with gilt. A green Morocco leather seat, trimmed with lace, cushioned the passengers, whose feet rested on carpeting. The whole interior was sumptuously lined with green and red leather, and the passengers could gaze at the passing landscape through plate-glass windows etched with diamond-cut designs. If they desired privacy, they could snap shut Venetian blinds fashioned with mahogany frames. There was a place for the finishing touch, the ultimate accessory, a postilion - a slave, dressed in livery displaying the family colors, clutching a rail as the carriage bounced along, and ready to leap to the ground and open the door..."

It's interesting to picture the style of President George Washington and Martha compared to that of Vice President John Adams and Abigail.

reminded me that i was wondering when i read about Esther Reed corresponding w/ her brother in England - how was she doing that? How did letters get from her to England and how did he get his letters to the colonies, or more specifically to a "rebel" in the colonies? I don't know that any of you will have an answer, it's sort of a rhetorical question that was rolling around in my brain.

I'll have to have a glass of - something, not madeira - and jump into chapter 5, i haven't started it yet......jean

JoanK,

I haven't read the Eleanor series. I have just seen and heard about it. Now I will try one.

Marni,

You are so kind. I post a lot. Yet, I always live with the feeling of posting too often. It's just that thoughts keep running through my head while I am reading a book. Usually, I need answers. I come to you guys for help.

Here is a compliment to you. You never think a question is dumb or unimportant. You will do your best to find information. Somehow you find the facts everytime. You put a lot of hard work into a discussion. I applaud you. You and JoanK work perfectly together as a team. Of course, you work perfectly with Harold too.

What a coach!! It's too beautiful for Cinderella. Wow! Now I would like to see that coach in a museum, very lovely!

Hi MaryZ,

I am glad you are back. I am really camera shy. Don't tell a soul!

Mabel, I would love to know the answer to that question about the letters. I am going to definitely try the Eleanor mysteries.

A verbal description???

Now I really do need a glass of Madeira.

Jean: Re "Esther Reed corresponding w/ her brother in England - how was she doing that?"

She moved to America before the war and certainly must have corresponded with her brother then. As far as communications during the war....Letters and newspaper articles from America did make it to Britain. I was thinking that Loyalists communicated via their friends' ships or their own ships or via British ships that sailed between North America and England. Patriots had their own ships. They definitely sailed to France. I bet letters were smuggled back and forth between England and France. Probably patriot ships sneaked into various ports in the British Isles, too.

It seems like a number of American successfully conducted affairs and relationships with both Loyalists and Patriots, like the Shippen family. Probably, if you knew the right people, you could get what you wanted.

------------------------------------------

As I think about communications between France and England during the war, I think about Silas Deane. Have you heard of him? Silas Deane was our first American ambassador to France who was sent over on a secret mission to make deals with the French and get military supplies and personnel from the French. Silas Deane apprently made personal income from his deals in France and perhaps became a spy for the British. He and Edward Bancroft, Ben Franklin's secretary in France, certainly sent communications back and forth between France and England during the war. (Bancroft was definitely a British spy. I read an article that theorized that he murdered Silas Deane in England after the Revolution.)

Here are an article about the mystery of Silas Deane: http://www.silasdeaneonline.org/#silas

I became interested in Silas Deane because I taught high school English in Wethersfield, CT, many years ago. Silas Deane's home and business were in Wethersfield. I lived on Silas Deane Avenue. One of the town schools was named after him. He's considered a famous Patriot in Wethersfield. I was so shocked to read about his fate.

Hats: Thank you so much for your compliment!

Martha's coach reminded me of Cinderella's coach, too!

Marni

I noticed, as I read the article about Silas Deane, that his wife was an asthmatic. We've read about all the people dying of things like typhoid, smallpox, malaria, etc. But, a lot of people had terrible asthma, which sounds like such an ordinary illness but which can also be a killer. Nathanael Greene had terrible asthma attacks - apparently, one attack nearly killed him. I just read that Stanton, Lincoln's Secretary of War, died from an asthma attack.

I have asthma - although not seriously. One thing that brings on an attack is horses! Imagine if I lived in the 1700's. My son has problems with asthma and has to use an inhaler. A friend of mine periodically was sent to the hospital due to asthma attacks. She had to carry an oxygen pack around with her until the illness finally killed her. Of course, they didn't have things like inhalers and oxygen packs during the Revolution!

Jean: Your photo didn't get through. Can you re-send it?

I have an idea. Why don't you send it to my email address as an attachment. I can forward it. Here's my address:

robert.lydecker@snet.net

Thanks!

Mary Z: The technical staff is checking the size of your photo in preferences.

Marni

We've mentined how American women were raped by soldiers during the Revolution. I just realized we haven't mentioned Elizabeth Loring, wife of Tory Joshua Loring, commissary of American prisoners. She became notorious as the mistress of General Howe. She slept with the British general in return for promotions for husband.

She was notorious because the general was important. I wonder how many women slept with less important British officers in exchange for favors?

There seems to have been a lot of spying going on during the Revolution. I supposed there's always a lot of syping going on!

Another woman besides Peggy Shippen was a spy - Lydia Darragh. I think I read that she was a mortician in Philadelphia and was also a spy. She observed the British from her window, wrote coded messages about British plots, & hid the messages behind her son’s buttons. He delivered the messages to his brother in the Continental army.

Jean: Do you know anything more about her? A mortician?

----------------------------------

I just found something else in notes I took while reading....This was so sad.....

Martha Washington's only surviving son, Jacky Custis, finally joined the army in 1781 - nearing the end of hostilities. Not long after he joined up he died of “camp fever” at age 26. I wonder if camp fever was typhoid fever?

----------------------------

I just read something else intriguing about Jacky Washington. Martha had an African American half-sister who lived at Mt. Vernon. Jackie had a child with her, according to the author of An Improper God.

Marni,

I just ordered "An Imperfect God:

Hats: It is the most fascinating book! I think it's more interesting than His Excellency which I think is going to be a SeniorNet selection later this year! (That was good, also, though.)

Oops, I just noticed I wrote An Improper God. It should be like Hats wrote - An Imperfect God. Sorry!

In one of the PBS videos about the Rev'y War someone - and i am thinking it was David McCullough, i can hear him in my head

- told her story.

Women in the colonial period had opportunities in professions that were later denied to them when professions got "organized." Once certain professions were licensed by the gov'ts women lost out, even tho' they may have been operating those businesses already. If the licensing required education, women, of course, were not allowed to get the education. In most professions they were excluded until almost the end of the 19th century. Also, because of a shortage of people, or because a women was widowed and took over her husbands' business, women were accepted as proprietors in many skilled areas.

Maryland had a woman who acted as the printer for the state and it was she who printed the Declaration of Independence when many printers were afraid to do it. Also in Maryland, very early in its existence, a woman acted as the attorney for Lord BAltimore's estate. Sorry, those names are escaping my brain at the moment, but i will try to find them for you.

A woman who came to NJ w/ a husband and five sons, ran the glass-making business after her husband died and Glassboro, NJ was named for the industry. Of course, many women ran inns and taverns, etc. etc. .....and of course, women were the "pharmacists, doctors and midwives" of most communities, until the men (the powers that be) decided that those professions had to be regulated and women were shut out of them.

Joan - i sent another message w/ a picture, hope it works, if not tell me exactly what i need to do - i'm a novice at that sort of thing...jean

We who come from northern states may have grown up thinking of slavery as a southern institution.
"Gone with the Wind" has crept into our minds as a stereotype.
But it wasn't until 1783 that Massachusetts abolished slavery.

Here's a link on the history of its slavery;read through the pages,
about the court cases, and how late the end of slavery occurred.

Slavery in Massachusetts

Harold, could you dance that long (3- Hours)? Just wanted a man's viewpoint.

Hats, No way. At no time in my life would I have been inclined and certainly not today with my stiff back. Having said that, the three-hour dance stint is certainly no record. I did not check but I bet it is in the Guinness Record Book as 24 hours plus.

I too have been much entangled in the seasonal Government red tape mentioned by Joan K and Marni!

I have been intending to add a comment on the Benedict Arnold and particularly the Peggy Shippen affair. To begin with Benedict Arnold, being an English Arnold was no ancestor of mine. At the time my Arnold ancestors were sipping good German beer on their farm in the petty Rhineland Kingdom of Baden. I was sort of surprised to find out a few years ago when I joined an Arnolds Genealogy mailing list the great preponderance of American Arnolds today appear to be descendants from English roots; those of German descent (like me) appear to be a distinct minority.

Anyway back to Benedict and Peggy, I can only observe that Benedict’s defection seems to have been a particular odious form of treachery. It was treason in its vilest form. his only motive being financial gain, the price for which he negotiated to obtain as much as the British would pay. No wonder he was less than popular in his post war life in England.

Peggy’s family of course had been Tory inclined, but not to the extent of being frantically loyal. But she as Arnold’s wife certainly played a leading role in the negotiations leading to his treason. She was certainly in an awkward position when after Arnold fled to the British Man-Of-War she had to answer to Washington and Hamilton in person. Had she been a man, I suspect her fate would have been quite different. As it was as a woman, General Washington and Captain Hamilton simply could not conceive her capable of such active involvement as she certainly was, so she went free. Only Major Andre, the British negotiator with Arnold who was caught out of uniform, was hanged making him in my mind much the British equivalent of the Patriot’s Nathan Hale.

had a part to play in ending slavery in that state - the first to do so? And don't we just know that Abigail's discussions w/ him prompted him to make such a statement appear in the constitution!?!

I'm just reading one of the "What If?" books. Major historians surmise what might have happened if certain events had gone in a different way in history. I've come across a Thomas Fleming piece - prominent historian, has written many books about this period - that includes some detail about B Arnold's part in the war, so in the interest of giving both sides of BA's behavior.........here are some pieces of Fleming......

"If ..BA had lacked the nautical know-how - and incredible nerve - to launch an Amer'n fleet on Lake Champlain in the late summer of 1776, the British wld have wintered in Albany and been ready to launch a war of annihilation agnst New Eng in the spring of 1777....the British cmdr had perhaps 16,000 men and Indians...the Amer'ns hd barely 3500 broken, dispirited men, ravaged by smallpox and defeat....Carleton (BR cmdr) planned to come by water, backed by a fleet. Arnold decided to turn himslf into an admiral and create a fleet of his own. ...he knocked together 13 clumsy row galleys and gondolas made of green wood and crewed thm w/ soldiers who had never been on a ship in thr lives. With an insouciance that bordered on insanity, A sailed this makeshift squadron up (Lake Champlain) and dared the Br to come out and fight."

Carleton was bldg a full-rigged 180 ton man-of-war, HMS Inflexible, which cld annihilate A's fleet. Whn A heard abt it, he retreated to an island in the lake and took a defensive position. C was urged by his officers to attack, but he was impressed by A's bravado, so he waited for 4 wks for the Inflexible to be rigged and armed before attacking A's position.

In a wild 16-hr melee, the Amer'ns took a terrific beating bt held thr battle line until nightfall. In the darkness, A led a runaway retreat bt the Brit caught up w/ him over the following 3 days and destroyed all bt 5 of his ships. Ticonderoga was C's for the taking. He hd a 5 to 1 advantage in men and guns.

The Amer'n garrison pretended to be eager to fight, hurling cannonballs and curses at Brit scouting parties. C, remembering Bunker HIll, ruled out an assault and decided it ws too late in the yr to begin a siege. ..the Brit retreated to Canada for the winter...Admiral Arnold and his green fleet had broken the momentum of the Br counterattack from the North. .... if C had captured Ticonderoga..and routed or captured the Northern Army, there wld have been nothing to prevent him frm seizing Albany ...he wld have bn able to smash into New Eng wherever he chose, wld have converted Albany into a cntr of loyalist resistance to the Continental Congress.

A yr later, at Saratoga Gen Gates (Amer cmdr) had infuriated A by giving him no credit for his exploits in another battle where A and hs men inflicted heavy casualties on the Brit. After an exchange of insults, Gates relieved A of command and confined him to his tent. But A disobeyed orders and rode to another electrifying performance on the battlefield where he had his leg shattered by a bullet, but continued to fight. The following night, Burgoyne surrendered his army to GAtes and France decide the Amer'ns cld win the war and began backing them w/ desperately needed money and guns.

Flemings says "w/out BA at (those two battles) the war might well have ended in 1777.".......maybe BA was justified in being angry at the Continental Command and if there hadn't been a Benedict Arnold, we all may be shouting "love live the Queen?".......jean

interestingly, on the same subject.....jean

Jean: Thanks for the info about women in professions. It's amazing to me to read about some of the professions women practiced in colonial times until legally unable to do so.

Mippy: The article about slavery in Mass. was so interesting! Thank goodness for some of the foreward-thinking people who lived there. I'm shocked to think that I had never heard of Elizabeth Freeman until I read Founding Mothers.

Harold: I've read that Benedict Arnold was hanged despite pleas to save him because of how Nathan Hale had been hanged. Payback time. Now, after reading that Hale was captured in NY the very next day after NY was burned makes me wonder if the British just weren't darn mad about the city burning.

Jean: Wasn't that an incredible story about Arnold's "fleet"! He was an amazingly talented military man and Washington recognized this. It was so difficult for the talented leaders in the Continental Army to be successful when so much was stacked against them.

I felt, too, that some of the brilliant leaders, like Arnold and Greene, were sort of like prima donnas at times. They both were extremely sensitive of slights they perceived against them. Arnold had not been promoted as quickly as he felt he deserved. It was so difficult getting money and supplies for their men. It must have been extraordinarily depressing for them at times. I guess Arnold's wife must have pushed him over the edge. His story is a very sad one. We were lucky to have him for awhile.

Kenneth Roberts wrote a good historic novel about Benedict Arnold, but I can't for the life of me remember the title. I read it in the '60's. Does anyone remember it?

Jean: I received your photo. What a nice picture! I'm going to forward it to the technical staff. Thanks!

The historical novel by Roberts on Benedict Arnold is Arundel
Here's the link to the Amazon page:
Arundel

Mippy: Thanks for the title. I never read Arundel. But I just found the book I was thinking of - Rabble in Arms - also about Benedict Arnold, but about his navy experience. Here's a blurb from Amazon:

"This novel describes the birth of the United States Navy, where, in 1776, the American Colonists under command of General Benedict Arnold built a fleet of ships in Skenesborough (now Whitehall) at the foot of Lake Champlain. It describes the subsequent battle of Valcour Island, where this tiny fleet of ships took on a much larger British force sailing south on Lake Champlain enroute from Canada to Albany. Although the American Fleet was eventually dispersed, this first US Navy successfully delayed the British by a year in their march to the south. This year allowed the Americans to recruit a large enough army to defeat Burgoyne's British Army at Saratoga."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892723866/102-4747370-0505733?v=glance&n=283155

It sounds like what Jean was describing. I'm going to have to read Arundel, too. I really enjoy Kenneth Roberts books.

I would have tho't they might consider - - o.k., i'll remember.....the guy whose ships carried the soldiers across the Delaware on Christmas?...but, i guess they didn't "fight" a battle, so maybe that's part of the definition of a being a "navy." Harold? What is the definition of a navy? Help......jean

Jean: Are you thinking of John Glover?

Regarding what is a navy - I'm sure Harold can answer better than I can, but I found this definition from Wikipedia: "A Navy is the branch of a country's military forces principally designated for naval warfare, namely lake- or ocean-borne combat operations and related functions. It includes operations conducted by surface vessels (ships), submarine vessels, and seaborne aviation, as well as ancillary support, communications, training, and other fields; recent developments have included space-related operations."

Glover and his men rowed the army across bodies of water. Glover also fought on the land with the army. But his men were not a force designated for naval warfare. Arnold's fleet, on the other hand, was specifically built for combat on the lake.

I wonder if that's the difference.?

I love the story of the slave Elizabeth Freeman. John Adams had written the Massachusetts Constitution, and wrote in it "All men are born free". So she sued for her freedom, saying her slavery violated the state constitution -- and won!! imagine the shock of the politicians. I can imagine them saying: "You mean the constitution is supposed to mean what it says? Why if that's true, it's the end of politics as we know it!."

I told the story to my niece, who is a labor lawyer in Boston. She was very excited by it. She says she often is in the old court house, where they have exhibited bits of the original constitution, and papers from a law case about slavery. She thinks it must be Elizabeth Freeman's, and says she'll try to look at it the next time she's there.

Glad you like my picture. That's my twin sister, PatH on the left.

#482

I bet you are right about the Guiness Book of Records. Just thinking of three hours or more takes my breath away.

Mippy,

Thank you for the link about "Slavery in Massachusetts" Also, thank you for the book title, "Arundel." Is that by Kenneth Roberts? I think he might have written many historical novels.

I am behind on reading my posts, behind in my reading. Then, I have to run some errands today. Will come back soon.

JoanK: You're a twin!!! That's fun! I do love your picture and the way you and your sister are posing. You don't look like identical twins, or is it just the camera angle?

I have identical twin nieces, 2 beautiful girls who live out in California, Robin and Becky. I'll never forget when they were about 2 years old, Robin looked at herself in the mirror, pointed at herself in the mirror and said "Becky." Kind of strange.

Hats: Kenneth Roberts wrote a whole bunch of historical novels. My dad got hooked on them years ago and bought many of them in paperback. He saved them over the years. I have some of them today. There is one called Oliver Wiswell in which the main character is a Loyalist in the Revolution. I'm going to have to read it to see Roberts' depiction of the Loyalist side.

Oh, I just found Arundel in the bunch! I'm going to have to read that one, too. Too bad that Rabble in Arms is not there. I'd read that one again.

Roberts wrote an interesting novel called Lydia Bailey that takes place in the early 19th century. The main character sees the beginnings of the Haiti uprising and later is captured by Barbary pirates in the Mediterranean and joins William Eaton in the Tripoli campaign.

Thanks Marni and for the definition of navy. I had a sense that it had to related to combat.

Come on, you've all danced for three hours in you young lives, surely!! Remember Kitty was younger than Nat, it's GW we have to be amazed at. But he seems to have been Superman. Rumor has it that he had more than one horse shot out from under him during the War. Another story is that a young Brit soldier had a gun aimed directly at GW outside of PHila, but didn't know who he was and when GW turned and dashed away, the young man was astounded and he didn't want to shoot him in the back, so he didn't shoot!!! Imagine how our history would have been different if GW had been killed in the War.

Elizabeth Freeman should have a memorial dedicated to her.

I am blown away by how often these parents were separated from their children. My 31 yr old son is getting ready to move to Montana and I'm upset!! Just think of how awful it must have been to not hear from someone for months or even years, to not know they are o.k. and then when you get a letter, it could be months old, so you still don't know if they are o.k. AAdams must have had great faith in JOhn to allow him to take their sons w/ him and she probably was fortunate not to have known that JQA then went off to Russia. In McCullough's "John Adams" he reports that JQA comes back to Paris at age 15, ALONE, thru Finland and Denmark in the winter time, I think it took him about 6 months!

The Jays apparently didn't see their first son for sev'l years. I think i might have chosen being w/ my child rather than taking that trip w/ my husband. Especially at age 3, they are changing so much, so fast, i would not want to miss that. aaarrggghhhhh, what a choice to have to make!....jean

Jean: I don't know how they did it, either, leaving their young children behind, or letting them head off somewhere like Europe to get an education or to go on a grand tour for culture.

I was just thinking....Didn't the British often send their sons off to school from an early age - you know, like in David Copperfield? It always seemed cruel to me that mothers had to let their young boys go at such a young age.

Maybe the Americans during colonial times were just accustomed to seeing their sons go off. It seemed like many of the Founding Mothers' sons went to England for an education, like it was the traditional thing to do. George Washington's dad died when George was young, and his family couldn't afford to send him off for an education. George always regretted it. It sounded like he was different from many of the Founding Fathers in that respect.

Now you've got me thinking about what we see in Cokie's book. It's kind of a combination of a history book and a book of anecdotes about a lot of women. We see tidbits about people over a span of time. I like it because I'm finding out many things I never knew before. Yet, we don't see an in-depth picture of of the people.

I think one thing we're missing reading this book is the emotion that many of these women must have felt when certain events happened. Once in awhile we see it from their letters, but not too often.

I just found out reading An Imperfect God that Martha Washington's first couple of children died young. Her one remaining son Jackie was very very spoiled as a result. Martha did not want to be away from him, fearing something would happen to him. She was worried when he went off to school, thinking he'd drown while swimming. He was so spoiled that George had trouble with him.

Martha's one remaining daughter Patsy had epilepsy all of her life. George and Martha were constantly caring for her and worrying about her. Patsy died suddenly of an epileptic attack. George wrote: "[Patsy] rose from Dinner about four Oclock, in better health and spirits than she appeared to have been in for some time; soon after which she was seized with one of her usual Fits, & expird in it, in less than two Minutes without uttering a Word, a groan, or scarce a Sigh. - this Sudden and unexpected blow, I scarce need add has almost reduced my poor Wife to the lowest ebb of Misery."

Imagine! I'm not getting a picture of this Martha at all in Founding Mothers. But, I think getting a taste of what these women went through is very enticing. It makes me want to read more about them. That's a good thing.

Marni

He just relates how it effected Martha. I have a feeling his own emotions were similar.....jean

I'm sure they were, Jean. It sounds like he really loved his step-children. From what I've read about George, he almost never expressed his emotions, even in journals and letters. So for him to express his wife's grief was probably his way of expressing his own.

Re the 3-hour dance marathon - I just remembered the name of the movie about the dance marathons during the Great Depression - "They Shoot Horses, Don't They." Anybody see it? Jane Fonda was in it. I think it came out in the 70's. It was extremely depressing. The dance marathoners danced for over 30 hours, I think. They had breaks every once in awhile.

I thought it was interesting to read in FM about Abigail Adams' time in America during the years when her husband was abroad - many years. He sent her European goods that were hard to find in America (such as lace, ribbons, fans) to sell to make money. (Franklin did the same with his sister.) Abigail was able to make enough on the sales to save a sum she used to buy property in Vermont. She really was a thrifty Yankee!

Adams asked his wife to join him and she finally did although she was worried she'd embarrass him and he was worried his wife would "get too fancy." Abigail was feeling “excessively matronly” (she was still in her 30's!) Gosh, do you remember feeling old when you were in your 30's?!!

I got such a chuckle when I read how Abigail, when sailing to Europe, organized a ship cleaning brigade and gave cooking lessons. She was such an organizer! Can you just picture what she would have been like if she lived today?

I also got a chuckle when I read her description of how her French servants in their 30-room mansion polished the floors by skating around with brushes on their feet!

Abigail kept up with news from America. She and Thomas Jefferson disagreed on Shays Rebellion. Abigail was disgusted with the Rebellion. Jefferson wrote back to her his famous words: “I like a little rebellion now and then.” This foreshadowed the differences that grew between Federalists and Republicans.

3. What specific court case led to the abolition of slavery in the state of Massachusetts?

Elizabeth Freeman, a woman unable to read or write, brought a suit against Massachusetts. With the help of her lawyer she won her freedom along with another slave's freedom. Elizabeth Freeman had spent thirty years in slavery. As a freedwoman she worked as a nurse and midwife. I feel greatly honored to read about this woman's courage and thought.

I think this question was already answered by Mabel and/or JoanK. It is so inspiring to read about such a woman. I am glad Cokie Roberts included her story in the book.

I love that story! And it led to Massachusetts being the first state to abolish slavery )in 1783). Now, according to Marni's link, they are embarrassed that it took them that long. Well they should be (never mind how embarrassed other states should be, including mine).

I'm constantly surprised at all the money troubles the founding mothers had! Having been to Mount Vernon and Monticello, I thought of all the founding fathers as rich landowners. Turns out, even Washington and Jefferson were strapped for money, and they were the rich ones. The Northerners like Adams had only what they earned, and while they were serving in the continental congress, they didn't earn anything.

It makes me wonder how the war was financed. CR mentions briefly that Robert Morris was the "money man" of the Revolution. I hope she tells us more about him. We've been criticizing the Continental Congress for not giving the soldiers shirts, but I'll bet there was no money.

I've changed my mind about a dozen times trying to figure out if i would have liked him or not, or if i like him now!

He was one of the few who said "no, i'm not coming, my wife needs me." or "hurrying up and come and replace me, my wife needs me." Then he writes some very loving things to his dgts, but is so strongly authoritarian and seemingly unfeeling at other times. That may have been common in days when fathers were really the heads of the family and told the children what to do until he died in many families.

I think i probably mirror some of the same feelings Abigail had about him thruout her life. I just can't decide how i feel about this enigmatic, intelligent, devious, ambiguously behaving man........jean

I have mixed feelings about Jefferson, too. He was such a conniving person in politics and went behind people's backs secretly. And the things he said to his daughters in letters - I suppose it was the times, but it still really grates on my nerves. He'll love his daughterws if they behave in a certain way.? He uses his love as a reward.

_________________________________________

Re: "CR mentions briefly that Robert Morris was the "money man" of the Revolution. I hope she tells us more about him."

I read a really shocking thing about Robert Morris. He lent a lot of his own money during the Revolution. He did a lot of speculation in land and other investments. And he lost his shirt. He actually ended up in debtor's prison after the war. Like Charles Dickens' father. I was so shocked. He lost everything. After all he did for everyone during the war. Debtor's prison. Gouverneur Morris helped bail him out.

It seems that a number of the founding fathers lost everything during or right after the Revolution.

Speaking of Gouverneur Morris....What did you think about the story of his wife, Nancy - "the biggest scandal of 18th century America"?

Montana State U, so i'm a little behind in my reading, can't wait to find out about this SCANDAL. You're all wetting my appetite.....jean

I have always had mixed feelings about Thomas Jefferson too. I have never had the urge to read a bio about him. At first I didn't like him because of the Sally Hennings situation. Then, to learn how he betrayed his friendship with John Adams didn't help. I really didn't like how he handled that situation either.

I thought all the Founding Fathers were rich too.

Mabel,

I haven't gotten to the scandal either. I am really behind in my reading.

Here's additional information about Gouverneur Morris in this link: Gouverneur Morris

And to keep the two men straight, the signer of the Declaration of Independence, Robert Morris, is given a detailed bio. in this link: Robert Morris

In Edit: Good morning Hats!
My newspapers did not arrive on time, so I'm posting before breakfast! History for breakfast!

Re: Abigail Adams: In his John Adams” biography, David McCullough leaves the distinct impression that Abigail was very much successful as the wife of her diplomat husband in France and Holland during the revolution and later when John Adams was the first U.S. ambassador in London.

Re: Abolishment of Slavery by Court Decree: H.G. Wells in his 1930’s “Outline Of History” tells of an 18th century English Court case in which a Black slave brought to England by his Virginia Master was declared free. In a wonderfully worded opinion the Court declared Slavery an odious condition unknown to English law, A slave, the court held, became free as his foot set down on English soil. This is the repeated message in the 18th century Poem, “Rule Britannia” that later, put to music, became a National Anthem, Click Here..

At least one of Benjamin Franklin’s slaves too seems to have stayed in England as a free man.

Unfortunately for the Americas, the English Rule did not followed the Flag

Thanks, Mippy for the links about Gouverneur Morris and Robert Morris (not related to each other.) I can't wait til everyone has a chance to read the story of Anne (Nancy) Randolph and how she ended up marrying Gouverneur Morris!! It's pretty wild!

I became interested in Gouverneur Morris last year and bought his biography Gentleman Revolutionary : Gouverneur Morris, the Rake Who Wrote the Constitution by by Richard Brookhiser.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743223799/102-4747370-0505733?v=glance&n=283155

I also bought Gouverneur Morris: An Independent Life by William Howard Adams.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300099800/102-4747370-0505733?v=glance&n=283155

Boths books are very interesting. If you ever see a famous painting of the Founding Fathers signing the Constitution and see a man with a wooden leg, that's Gouverneur Morris.

He had two terrible accidents that changed his life - one when he was a young teenager. The story goes that he was home from school on vacation. He and a friend were playing jumping over a large pot of boiling water heating up outside. Morris accidently fell in and his arm, hand, and side were terribly burned. He was horribly scarred for life and could never use the hand again.

When he was in his 20's, he was involved in a runaway carriage accident. In trying to stop the horses, his leg was run over by a wheel of the carriage. A doctor amputated his leg. He found out later the leg probably could have been saved.

Morris, who was very athletic and active, didn't let these incidents ruin his life. He learned how to ride a horse, swim, sail, fish, hunt, etc. with the use of only one hand and one leg. He was brilliant and had a wonderful sense of humor and made friends easily everywhere he went. His mother was of French descent (her maiden name was Gouverneur) and she taught Gouverneur French, so he could speak it fluently when he was ambassador to France during the Reign of Terror.

The Morris estate, Morrisania, is part of the Bronx today and the area is still called Morrisania. The town of Gouverneur in upstate New York is named after Morris. It's where he and his wife went on vacation to fish and relax. That's something they enjoyed together - they both loved the outdoor life, swimming, sailing, fishing, etc.

Portrait of Gouverneur Morris:

Gouverneur Morris

Portrait of Mrs. Robert Morris: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-102.jpg

The Robert Morris Mansion - info about its excavation: http://www.nps.gov/inde/archeology/morris.htm

Thanks, Harold, for the info about the court case in England. They certainly were ahead of America regarding the issue of slavery.

Here's a timeline for the period we are reading about in Week 3:

Timeline 1784-1790: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/rev-nation.htm

Here are a few more portraits:

Portrait of John Jay: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-086.jpg

Portraits of Aaron Burr: http://images.nypl.org/?id=1161230&t=w

Home of Mary Alsop King & Rufus King: http://www.historichousetrust.org/museum.php?msmid=5

Mary Alsop King portrait: http://www.charityadvantage.com/kingmanor/mary.asp

Rufus King portrait: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_King

Portrait of Dolley Madison: http://www.vcdh.virginia.edu/madison/exhibit/washington/img/port1.html

Portrait of James Madison: http://www.vcdh.virginia.edu/madison/exhibit/washington/img/port3.html

Madison’s home Montpelier: http://www.montpelier.org/restoration/restoration.cfm

Portrait of Benedict Arnold: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-138.jpg

Portrait of Peggy Shippen and child: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-140.jpg

Painting of John Andre’s hanging Oct. 2, 1780: http://www.archives.gov/research/american-revolution/pictures/images/revolutionary-war-066.jpg

Scroll down to see a rather small painting of the Signing of the Constitution. It's neat. If you move your cursor around on the painting, you'll see the names of the various men there who signed. Click to see enlargements of the men. Gouverneur Morris is center/back, just behind Ben Franklin.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/convention/christy/

Have been reading back posts so haven't got very far into the book. The discussions are so wonderful and the links are much appreciated. By the time I read posts, take a side trip checking out the links, I don't get much read in the book.

My daughter brought me a book from the library she thought I might enjoy "The Petticoat Affair" by John F. Marszalek.

I am sure I will have to renew both FM and PA before I get them read. Thanks for some enjoyable time reading your posts.

That's a neat picture of the signers.

Boy, if we can't make up our minds about Jefferson, I can't wait to see what we make of Nancy Morris. Did she or didn't she? Do we have our first murderess? And if so, how many people did she murder? And where on earth did she get that hat?

What is it w/ naming girls one name and calling them something else??? I can understand Abigail being Nabby when her mother is also Abigail, but Patsy, Nancy - my grandmother was a Mary whom they called Molly - I didn't understand it then and i still don't understand it

If you want to call her Molly, name her MOlly!!

No wonder Nancy married the Gov' he sounds like a fun guy AND didn't have any problem w/ her history, how nice of him. He may be my favorite guy so far......and w/ money too!!

As usual, loved your links Marni. The pictures you have of the famous are not the unual pictures that i've seen, which was nice......jean

We have so many outstanding women here, it's easy to forget some. Let's not overlook Sarah Jay, who seems to have kept her sense of humor no matter what happened to her. Definitely the kind of wife these men needed.

in PHila, recently built to commemorate the constitution. Fair warning, it's narrated by Peter Jennings. You need to have Windows Media Player, which you can download. If you click on "launch stand alone player" you'll get a bigger picture. The statues of the original Constitution Convention are really REAL looking and Gov' Morris is there w/ his peg leg. I have a picture of my dgt, son and cousin w/ "Ben Franklin" but i'm not sure how to get it up so you can see it, since i don't have a web page......jean

http://www.constitutioncenter.org/visiting/ExhibitExperience/VirtualTour.shtml

Wow, Jean, that presentation about the National Constitution Center was so cool! And, as Peter Jennings said, it IS remarkable! Thanks for the link! My sister-in-law and family recently moved to Philadelphia. One of these days we're going to visit and see the fantastic historic sites. The Center is definitely on my list of places to see!

JoanK: Did she or didn't she? I think partly she did and partly she didn't! What a story!!!! It could be a movie!

You are so right about Sarah Jay. She was one of my favorite founding mothers. She had spunk. Her husband was lucky to have her. She was the only ambassador's wife who went over with her husband from the beginning. And their trip! Good grief! They were nearly killed on the passage across the ocean. And then that terrible trip through Spain. I thought she was very brave and stoic and good-humored through it all. Even when she was so sad about leaving her little child behind.

Hats and Jean: How are you doing with catchup for this section? We are going pretty fast and I know you are busy. Do you need a bit more time? Do you think we should wait until next Monday before we begin discussing the final chapter? Should we use all of this coming week to finish our current section (instead of just Monday and Tuesday)?

How does everyone feel about that?

Saucy: I'm glad you're enjoying the discussion. You'll enjoy the book, too!

Marni,

The weeks have just flow past so quickly. I am heavily working on my third week of chapters. So, I won't post for awhile. I will read my book, posts, and links. Thanks for asking. I will try to get up to date today. I was out most of yesterday and Thursday too. That really cut into my reading. At least, it's a good excuse.

I love Sarah Jay too! Her life was so exciting. Shipwrecked, then landing on Martinique. Unfortunately, she lost a baby girl. She was also separated from her baby boy. At least, Peter could stay with his grandparents. I felt very sad for Sally when her husband, John, and her brother had a falling out.

Wasn't that something when the Hessian soldiers were spooked by Susan's portrait above the stairs. Talk about a bolt of lightening coming just in time, that one was right on the button.

Harold, thank you for the added information about slavery in Massachusetts. I haven't looked at all my links. The discussion and the book has been terrific.

While reading about Sally Livingston Jay and her travels to Spain, I became interested in Spain and Florida. At what time did the Seminole wars take place?

Marni,

Are we going to stay on schedule with the calendar in the heading? That is what I have been trying to follow.

By the way, I would love to read a biography about LaFayette, Marie Antoinette, Thomas Jefferson, so many myths and facts surround his name. Thomas Jefferson did make the purchase of Louisiana, right?

Oh, and Susan B. Anthony.

I would love to read these with Harold, Ella and Marni and JoanK. If not, these are some of my reading goals.

Jean:, thank you for the Link to the National Constitution Center Site. I just took the Virtual tour. and explored some of its offerings. I did not know of its existence and see that it just opened in July 2003. It would be a most interesting place to visit.

Hats: Thank you for your suggestions regarding biographies for future discussion. Back in our year two,1997, our books group discussed American Sphinx by Joseph Ellis. This was a Bio of Thomas Jefferson.

Ella and I have discussed the La Fayette possibility and there are excellent in print biographies of him available. A La Fayette discussion is a real possibility this fall or winter. Also I should add there are other biographies of Thomas Jefferson and Marie Antoinette and Susan B. Anthony titles that also would make great discussion candidates. Should you have any particular title nominees, mention them in a post to the Non-fiction Board".

Hats and Harold: Count me in for that non-fiction book discussion! We have to add Jean (mabel) to the list of people who have to be there. She's a regular and always adds so much to the discussion!

Hats: Sounds as though you're catching up and want to stay on schedule. That's fine with me. OK. Let's stick with the schedule.

Harold, thanks for all of that good information and for considering future discussions for discussion. I would also like to add Napoleon. I bet reading about his exile and march on Russia is very exciting reading.

Marni, I could hardly stop reading very, very early this morning. I never realized Thomas Jefferson was such a family man until reading Cokie Roberts book. TJ was very kind to his wife during her illness. He seemed to love his children deeply too.

I am anxious to look back at the archives for American Sphinx.

Yes, Jean gives a lot of wonderful information during these discussions.

Hats: I enjoyed that story about the Hessians seeing a ghost, too! What a good story to pass down through the generations.

I had never heard of Anne Willing Bingham before - the wife of William Bingham, Robert Morris’ partner. She was “unquestionably the head of American society.” Abigail Adams referred to her as “the finest woman I ever saw.” I wonder if her husband lost money the way Robert Morris did.

-----------------------------------

Jean: I'm looking over my notes about the women and find I'm still laughing about your comment re the nicknames - like calling someone "Molly" when they were named "Mary." That still goes on. My mother's name is Mary and she was always called Peggy.

One thing I find interesting is how many people named children the same name as a child who died. For example, Alexander and Betsey Hamilton named one son Philip. He was killed in a duel and the next son to be born to Betsey was named Philip. I'm reading a biography of Horatio Nelson. His mother had 11 children. Two boys died and when the next boys were born, she named them the same names as the boys who died. I'm not sure I could bear to name a child the same name as one who died. I wonder if it had anything to do with inheritance. I think they were named after uncles or some relatives. Maybe they were more likely to inherit something from the uncle if they had his name??

I was interested to read that Mercy Otis Warren actually wrote articles against ratification of the Constitution. She was bothered by the secrecy of the Constitutional Convention. What an interesting time that must have been when the ratification process was going on. Many of the women really got interested in politics and discussed politics in their letters. A number of them wrote their opinions to men in powerful positions.

Weren't New York and Rhode Island against ratification?

-------------------------------------

I just read that Sally Jay's brother was lost at sea. Harold: Didn't we read in the Audubon biography that something like one out of six ships were lost at sea in that era? No wonder people like Deborah Franklin were frightened to sail across the Atlantic. Imagine all the people who died and all the goods and letters that were lost. Or being shipwrecked like the Jays and landing in a place where you weren't supposed to be.

I was just thinking about the issue of states' rights vs a strong central government - a big issue when it came to the Constitution. When you think about it, the colonies were sort of like little individual separate countries before the Revolution, each having its own government, laws, leadership. Going to another colony might have been like going to a foreign country. Each colony had its own interests on the agenda. It's unbelievable that they actually were able to come up with a Constitution that eventually was agreed upon and signed by each state. Of course, they didn't agree on many things and set some important things to be decided in the future - like the issue of slavery. And we know what happened with that issue.

There was significant opposition to the ratification of the constitution. The opposition are know in history as the Antifederalists; They were afraid that the strong federal government copied from the English model with an elected President replacing the hereditary King but with much the same power as the king, would lead to tyranny. Some of the leading antifederalists were well known such as Patrick Henry, George Mason, James Monroe, Samuel Adams, George Clinton, and Samuel Chase. The Antifederalists succeeded in getting the first 10 amendment, the Bill-of-Rights adopted with the main document.

Later during the late stages of the Washington Administration and during the John Adams term, supporters of Thomas Jefferson were also referred to as Antifederalists.

WebSites

Antifederalists

ANTIFEDERALISTS VS. THE FEDERALIST: MAIN ISSUES

Thanks for the clarification, Harold. Some of the terms get confusing. I've read of the anti-federalists being called Republicans. Maybe they became Republicans when it was nearer to the 3nd presidential election before Jefferson was elected?? Now today, to differentiate Republicans (as in Lincoln's new party) from earlier Republicans, I see the earlier Republicans referred to as Democratic-Republicans.

Speaking of George Mason....I see George Mason University just beat University of North Carolina in the NCAA tournament. Big upset. People have been asking me, "Who's George Mason?" And now I know.

UConn just beat Kentucky. GO UCONN!!!

I've read of the anti-federalists being called Republicans. Maybe they became Republicans when it was nearer to the 3nd presidential election before Jefferson was elected??

I think your thinking is right on track. In 1800 the party of Jefferson was referred to as "Republicans." The opposition was still the "Federalists." At that time TJ and his followers, the "Republicans" were sometimes called Antifederalists since they were suspicious of strong Federal Power and favored States rights. I think it was the 1820's before he party that had been the party of TJ became known as the Democratics. I seem to remember some Web research during a discussion a couple of years ago indicating that Andrew Jackson in 1828 was the first to run under the Democrat label.

As President he was not shy about exercising Presidential authority. The Whig Party was created to provide an opposition advocating a powerful Congress over the President. This Party enjoyed considerable success during the middle years of the 19th century until if fizzled miserably in 1858 and 1860..

Yeah, George Mason University!!! They are a local U. that I was surprised was even in the NCAA tournament: to beat the mighty North Carolina is amazing -- I thought my son was joking when he told me!

The issue of Federal vs. States rights is still being fought over. It must have been scary to these independent revolutionaries to cede power to a strong Federal Government. The whole tenor of our constitution and the system of balance of powers is one of mistrust of too much power in one pair of hands.

Many of the powers they were reluctant to cede to the Fed are ones we now take for granted as being federal. But this system of balance of powers has kept us one of the best governments in the world ever since. Thank goodness for it!

I bet our founding fathers and mothers would be really shocked, though, to see how much power the fed govt. has today.

Where is George Mason U. located, Joan? I figured it had to be somewhere in Virginia.

Yes, it's in the Virginia suburbs of DC. Many of my friends have children who went there.

The information about the Antifederalists is very interesting. It is also good to know which Founding Fathers became a part of the Antifederalists.

I have never picked up what the Whig Party represented. I am glad to see these links. Harold, thank you!

I can't stay long. I am reading about that horrible scandal. Oh boy, in a scandal it's hard to find the truth, too many rumors flying.

Cokie Roberts ending to chapter 6 gave me a lot to think about. To me the important word is "undefined."

"Martha Washington took on the undefined and difficult role of the First Lady."

What a challenge!! How in the world did Martha Washington know where to begin, what to do first? Did she have a confidante other than her husband, President Washington? Really, since we have not heard much about these Founding Mothers, I do not know Martha Washington's accomplishments after the war was won and her husband became president.

In our time First Ladies have a certain agenda. Barbara Bush became heavily involved with literacy. Rosalyn Carter was involved with Mental Illness issues. Nancy Reagan had the "Just say no" program. I remember Jacqueline Kennedy redoing the White House. What was Martha Washington's focus? Did she focus on more than one issue?

Because ladies were not treated equally during Martha Washington's time was she expected just to entertain and serve tea? At a formal occasion, could she speak up, loudly and clearly, about political issues?

I know now what she did during the War of Independence. What about these years, after the ratification of the Constitution?

On to chapter 7. Great book!

Hats: You'll find out more about Martha Washington's experience as the first First Lady in chapter 7.

I'm glad you got to the great scandal!

Everyone: The Randolph family was one of the great Virginian families of that era. A number of the men were important in government. They intermarried with other great Virginian families. Thomas Jefferson's daughter Patsey was Nancy Randolph's sister-in-law.

What did you think about how Nancy and her brother were not welcome in their home after their father remarried?

What do you think really happened regarding the baby? Do you think it was Nancy's? If so, who was the father?

What do you think caused the death of Nancy's brother-in-law?

How would you like to have had Patrick Henry and John Marshall as your lawyers?

What did you think when Nancy was kicked out of her sister's home and had nowhere to go and no money?

What did you think of Gouverneur Morris when he married Nancy and shocked his family?

Oh, I really felt sorry for Nancy. She had nowhere to go. She couldn't get a job. It made me see the plight of women in that day.

I have to go frost my hair. I'll be stopping by every once in awhile hoping I don't get drips of peroxide all over my keyboard. Last time I did this, it took me 5 hours.

This is my favorite era of U.S. History to teach. Every time, I am in awe that there were a group of people (altho only men went to the PHila convention, as we can see women were in on a lot of the discussion thru their contacts w/ these men) who had studied gov't processes and read about possible gov't structures and could bring knowledge and intelligence to the convention.This was obviously the intellectual elite of the country at the time.

The second awesome concept was that they should NOT let anyone know what they were talking about and NO ONE would "leak" anything about the discussion. Imagine if a gov't enity tried that today? Hillary tried to do it w/ the health care issue and got skewered and Cheney had secret mtgs w/ the energy companies and has been questioned about it. But being secret in their deliberations allowed them to pose ideas and argue them and change their minds w/out the media accusing them of "flip-flopping." And they had a real hashing out of ideas and it obviously worked. We have the oldest constitutional democracy in the world and hundreds of other countries have copied our structure.

I enjoyed CR saying that Franklin had to be reminded that he was not to talk about what was happening. They had been called together to "reform" the Aricles of Confederation and they basically hi-jacked the process into one that rewrote the whole concept. Fortunately, some members were concerned that the constitution only stated the fed'l gov'ts powers and there was no statement about the states and individuals rights and responsibilities. Therefore, they got a promise that there would be a Bill of rights for states and indiviuals attached if the states would ratify what was the body of the constitution.

James Madison, who is usually considered the "father of the constitution" because he bro't the rought draft to the convention and wrote a draft of 12 amendments, had read those 200 books sent to him by Jefferson from France. He's a testimony to bigger is not always better.

GW was impressive because he was the largest man in the room, JM was impressive because he may have had the most incisive brain in a room of very impressive brains! Dolley is one of my favorite women, I think we would all love her as James loved her and she obviously appreciated his intellect and didn't mind that he was quiet and introverted. He also seems to have been an anxious personality. When he went to Princeton, he got sick, apparently related to anxiety and took time off to come home and he apparently had other such episodes in his life, when things got stressful, he "got sick" and needed to be alone to recoup......

How lucky we were that these men were willing to be public servants and that we had such a smart group of guys who were interested in building a country, a group that where willing to listen to each other and compromise for the good of the country...........jean

Jean: I just love the info you provided. That's wonderful that you know so much about this period and can pass your knowledge on to your students - and to us!!!

What a fascinating time. James Madison was really prepared, wasn't he! I read a good biography of him last year (forget which one). He was so extremely intelligent - and another little guy. (It seems there were a number of really big guys like Washington and Jefferson and a number of really little guys like Madison and Hamilton in our first govts.) Madison was a Latin scholar. Sounds like he was anxiety-ridden. He often had attacks of what he called "bilious fever." I wonder what they'd call it today. He and Dolley were so different - she was a party girl. He was quiet and reflective and rather paranoid. Like the Washingtons, they never had any children together.

Isn't it so amazing how lucky our country was to have this incredible group of people together at one time??? A bunch of them knew what they were going to do - change to a new Constitution - going in. The secrecy was fascinating. I heard they had trouble keeping Ben quiet, especially after he had had a few glasses of madeira!

And we were so lucky that Hamilton and Madison got together to pursuade people to ratify by writing The Federalist papers! They convinced a lot of people it was a good thing. I wonder what would have happened if they hadn't done that?

--------------------------

AAAGGGGHHHH!! I just opened the box of frosting stuff. Half the things are missing. And my car's in the shop today. Oh, NO!!!!

In one of my history books he was labeled the "father of the REvolution" because of a great speech he have at that time. And here again he persuaded some delegates who were not sure they liked what had been decided on.

Also, picture the convention in Phila in the summer of 1787 with the windows shuttered, so no one could hear, and the delegates in those tights, waistcoats, top coats, WIGS, etc. It must have been steaming. Can't imagine what the aromas might have been???

Yes, the importance of the FEderalist papers cannot be overestimated. Madison was amazing in his arguements and explanations and answers to people's concerns. He really midwifed this document from beginning to end. It was also JM who kept copious notes and published them 25 yrs later, so we have him to thank for knowing very clearly how the discussion evolved..........jean

Jean: Do you know why Rhode Island and...North Carolina, was it?...didn't ratify the Constitution?

1. What did you think about how Nancy and her brother were not welcome in their home after their father remarried?

I felt sorry for Nancy and her brother. Their father married so soon after the death of their biological mother. The stepmother was very young, maybe close to Nancy's age. So, I don't feel she was old enough to know what Nancy and her brother experienced.

The stepmother, unfortunately, seems to fit the type you read about in tales. She wanted the kids off the property. That's kind of cruel, downright cold.

By the way, I am learning quite a lot from Mabel and Marni. I am glad you are going into further detail.

Hats: I was really shocked about that, too, that the Randolph children felt they had to leave their home because the stepmother didn't want them there. Apparently, their father didn't want them there, either, or he wanted the new wife there more than his own children. Nice guy. Nancy was....what ....14 at the time?

And then she went into that bizarre home situation at - of all places - BIZARRE! Wasn't that weird?! All those brothers and sisters and in-laws and all of those brothers falling in love with young Nancy.

Oh, look what I just found as I was trying to find a portrait of Nancy Randolph Morris. A touring exhibition and virtual tour about Alexander Hamilton:

http://alexanderhamiltonexhibition.com/about/index.html

Historian and author Richard Brookhiser is the narrator.

MABEL: "Every time, I am in awe that there were a group of people (altho only men went to the PHila convention, as we can see women were in on a lot of the discussion thru their contacts w/ these men) who had studied gov't processes and read about possible gov't structures and could bring knowledge and intelligence to the convention".

Just got on the computer, and saw that. How strange -- I was just having similar thoughts. I was talking to a friend about something I had read about many of the "new" countries that achieved independence in the last century. In many cases said this author (whose name I've forgotten) the leaders of the independence movement are completely focused on independence. After independence is won, they become heads of state with no idea how to run a country. They wind up either becoming completely dependent on the country they rebelled against, or in league with corrupt people who plunder the country. I really think I understand for the first time, how lucky we are, how precious and unusual in the history of the world this country of ours is.

Now if teachers like you can only keep that understanding alive. So our children understand that they have to protect this freedom, now only by fighting for it abroad but by fighting for it at home against (perhaps well-meaning) people who do not understand the balance of powers that our government is based on and try to undermine it. In the Story of Civilization discussion, we read over centuries while the Roman people passively let there republic be dismantled step by step to concentrate more and more power in a few hands, until they moved from one of the most just governments of their time to one of the most despotic. Our only defense against this is to make sure, really sure, that our children understand what our government is.

They did in 1790 and 1789 respectively, it just took them a little longer than the others. It was a hotly discussed issue. Let me see if i can give you a mini-lecture on the ratification.... LOL (my students, friends and family would say that i "can't give a mini-lecture" because i'm a natural teacher and always assume "if they don't hear it from me, they won't hear it from anybody else," so i take the opportunity to educate!

The extent of political debate abt the Constn was unprecedented. Every newspaper in the country published the entire document and most supported its adoption. Altho most citizens concurred that the national govt should have more power over taxation and foreign commerce, some were afraid that it held the potential for tyranny. Debates between the 2 sides frequently spilled into the streets.

The Federalists held that the nation did not need to fear centralized authority when good men taken from the elite were in charge,(!?!) they argued that the carefully structured govt wld preclude the possibility of tyranny. The separation of powers among the legislative, executive and judicial branches and the division of powers btwn the states and nation wld accomplish that goal. The liberties of the people wld be guarded by "distinguished worthies" - men of the "better sort" whose only goal (said GW) was "to merit the approbation of good and virtuous men." EGAD!! George must be turning over in his grave!

Antifederalists, recognized the need for a national source of revenue but feared a too-powerful central govt. They saw the states as the chief protectors of individual rights; consequently, weakening the states cld bring on potential abuses of govt authority. They stressed the need for CONSTANT POPULAR (people) VIGILANCE TO AVERT OPPRESSION. They were often small farmers preoccupied w/ guarding thr property against excessive taxation (probably the concern in North Carolina) and ambitious, upwardly mobile men who wld benefit from an economoic and political system less tightly controlled than what the Constn would allow. (probably a concern in R.I.) Federalists denigrated such men as disorderly, licentious, and even "unmanly" and "boyish" because they wld not follow the elites' lead in supporting the Const. ....name-calling and defaming our opponents is an old, old custom in the USA!

So, the anitfederalists focused on the lack of a bill of rts, they believed that people cld still be protected from tyranny by specific guarantees of rts; they were not reassured by the Federalist assertions that the new govt cld not violate people's rts because it had limited powers. They wanted a bill of rts as was in most state constitutions.

"Letters of a Federal Farmer", the most read Antifederalist pamphlet listed the rts that shld be protected: freedm of the press and religion, trial by jury and guarantees agnst unreasonable searches. From Paris, Jefferson added his voice of support "a bill of rts is what the people are entitled to agnst every govt of earth, ....and what no just govt shld refuse...." TJ and J Madison had included these in the VA state constn. Besides Jefferson, the antis, as someone mentioned before were headed by Sam Adams, Patrick Henry and Richard Henry Lee.

4 of the first 5 states to ratify did so unanimously, but serious disagreements then surfaced. Mass ratified w/ a close vote and when N Hampshire ratified in June 1788 that was the required 9 needed. But NY and VA had not yet voted, and everyone relized the new constn cld not succeed unless those key states accepted it. Depsite a valiant effort by Patrick Henry, pro-Constn forces won by 10 votes in Va. In NY, Madison, Jay and Hamilton campaigned for it by publishing "The Federalist" answering critics. Their reasoned arguments, coupled w/ a promise to add a bill of rts helped win the battle.

ppphhhhheeeewwwww! The end!.......jean

This short biographical sketch includes several paragraphs with comment on Martha Washington as first Lady. I don't think her role, as First Lady was much different for her role at Mount Vernon or the other Washington homes. She ran the domestic and social aspects of the establishment as she had done for years with perhaps a bit more pomp and ceremony. I suspect John Adams found his new role as Vice President more strange and unfamiliar than Martha Washington found her's as First Lady. . .

Jean: Thanks for the class!!! Let's raise our madeira glasses to the Bill of Rights!!

Harold: Thanks for the info about Martha Washington. We'll be seeing more of her in chapter 7 beginning on Wed.

My glass is raised! Cheers!!

Marni and Harold thank you for the new links.

Now I need to go back to the sites and have more fun.

Marni, Nancy must have been a beautiful woman. She had three guys running after her. It all led to a mixed up tragedy. That is so sad. And the name "Bizarre." Why was that name picked for the home? Maybe back in those times, "Bizarre had a different meaning.

The scandal is so tangled it is hard for me to put the pieces together and hold the mystery puzzle together.

I was astounded to see the name of the estate was Bizarre, also. I looked the word up in Answers.com. to see what it used to mean. Here's an etymology. Maybe they meant the name to mean "unconventional" or "fantastic" rather than the "weird" we tend to define it as today.

"bi·zarre (bĭ-zär') adj. Strikingly unconventional and far-fetched in style or appearance; odd. See synonyms at fantastic.

[French, from Spanish bizarro, brave, probably from Basque bizar, beard.]

bizarre from Basque This word originated in Spain

Can a beard be bizarre? Of course. Can a bizarre beard be Basque? How bizarre! There is no question that the Basque language, spoken on the border between Spain and France, from which so many English words have come, has a word bizarra that means beard. There is no question, furthermore, that bizarro means "handsome" or "brave" in Spanish and Portuguese.

Furthermore, coming at it from the present day, there is no question that we got our bizarre directly from the French, in about 1648. And there is no question that the French were the ones who took bizarre meaning "brave" or "warlike" and twisted it to our present-day meaning of "strange, weird, grotesque."

But what happened in between? Did a Spaniard, observing a fierce bearded Basque, hear the word bizarra and by misunderstanding give it a new meaning? Did the French then borrow this "brave" bizarre from the Spanish? So could it be that bizarre comes from the Basque word for beard?

The experts aren't sure, but then the experts aren't sure of a lot of things about the Basque language. It has a bizarre history. It seems completely unrelated to other European languages, or indeed to any other languages at all, although efforts have been made to link it with languages of the Caucasus, the Americas, and Pakistan.

Basque is spoken by more than 600,000 people in the northeast of Spain, where it is recognized as an official regional language, and by 90,000 across the border in France, as well as some 8,000 in the United States...."

As you can tell, I just loved the story of the great scandal and the "trial of the century." I think I enjoyed reading about scandalous women more than the others - Nancy Morris, Peggy Shippen, Kitty Greene. Fun stories.

Nancy Randolph Morris was the best story for me. Wow. Here's my take on her story.....

It sounds like 17-year-old Nancy became pregnant when she lived, unmarried, in her sister Judith's home. Nancy was engaged to be married to her sister's brother-in-law Theodorick, who was living in the same house. (Maybe they were trying out bundling!) She claimed later that she had loved him and had had his baby, which was stillborn. Unfortunately, her fiancee died of TB before they were married, she said; and there she was, pregnant. (I wonder how often this type of thing occurred back then?)

Unfortunately for Nancy, she gave birth at a friend's house when her family was there for a long visit. Bad timing. Her screams in childbirth were overheard. Apparently, 23-year-old Richard, Nancy's brother-in-law, helped her to dispose of the "stillborn" child by dumping the little body in a woodpile. Later, slaves found the dead baby. Gossip traveled like wildfire and the story came out.

Some thought that Richard was the father, that he and Nancy were having an affair right underneath her sister's nose in her own house. Nancy and Richard both denied this. Richard publicly claimed innocence, but he was arrested and went on trial for murder. He was acquitted.

The bunch, including Nancy's other brother-in-law John, continued to live together. (A peculiar illness as a young man left Randolph beardless and high-voiced.) A few years later, Richard suddenly died at age 26. A rumor began circulating that Nancy had poisoned him. Eventually, Judith came to believe the rumors, incited by John, who had also wooed Nancy and now hated her. Judith finally kicked Nancy out of the house when Nancy was 29. Nancy had no family, no money, no prospects (as you can imagine!) and no job. She she drifted to Richmond, then to Newport, and finally to NY trailed by rumors. One story has it that she became a prostitute in NYC.

At age 34, desperate Nancy wrote to Gouverneur Morris for help. He lived in nearby Morrisania and had been a family friend long ago. Morris was looking for a replacement housekeeper and interviewed Nancy for the job. Nancy was supposed to have been very attractive. Bachelor Morris, who had never been married, and who had always been a "rake," liked what he saw and hired her. Apparently, she interested him very much. She moved into his house. After investigating her background, Morris married her less than a year later.

Morris' relatives were horrified, not only because they expected to get an inheritance from bachelor Morris when he died, but because he married a woman with such a terrible reputation. They put up a squawk for years. When she gave birth to Morris' son, relatives claimed it was the son of a servant. (When he grew up, her son looked very much like his father, who was nearly 6 feet 4 inches tall and had a striking appearance.) Thomas Randolph tried to ruin Nancy publicly in the newspapers. Morris always took the side of his wife. Good for him!!! He and Nancy were extremely happy together and enjoyed an active and luxurious lifestyle until Morris died at 64 of (probably) prostate cancer.

Unfortunately for Nancy, wealthy Morris had co-signed a relative's mortgage and Nancy had to pay the debts from it. She had to live frugally for years, scrimped, saved, farmed, rented, & made the estate income-producing, but paid everything off. She left her son his estate free and clear.

Nancy's relatives, meanwhile, were plagued with bad luck. Bizarre burned down; one of Judith’s sons was deaf, dumb and mentally ill; another had TB. (Nancy's sister had a tough time of it!) John Randolph was defeated for Congress. Hah!

I can't find a portrait online of Nancy, but here's a possible silhouette of her: http://luceweb.nyhistory.org/luceweb/item_detail_enlarge.htm?qmkey=601001

Portrait of John Randolph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Randolph_of_Roanoke

A novel was written about Nancy: Unwise Passions : A True Story of a Remarkable Woman and the First Great Scandal of 18th Century America by Alan Pell Crawford.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/068483474X/102-4747370-0505733?v=glance&n=283155

Wow!! a whole book is written about this scandal. Marni, thank you for the link. I would love to read that book. I would like to read one about Peggy Shippen too.

Well, that's what I thought too. I thought, for some reason, that Judith's husband was the father of the baby. Theodorick sounds a little weak to even think of having a family.

Marni, you know you could write that up as a script for a mini-series, and it'd never sell - because it's too unbelievable (bizarre, even).

It's even too unbelievable for a soap opera!! hahaha!!!

A fascinating story! There's no way to know what actually happened. It sounds like she really was pregnant. I hope the baby was stillborn, we'll never know. But after that, everything that happened was blamed on Nancy. Well, she seems to have made Governeur happy.

On being thrown out of the house: perhaps it wasn't that uncommon. My aunt Mary was thrown out of the house when her father remarried, but not with scandal. Her father remarried a young wife, who said she wouldn't have a teen aged girl in the house, and forced Mary to marry at (I think) 16. This would have been in the early 1900s. Mary told me about it when she and her husband John were elderly and I met her for the first time. The bitterness was still very strong in her voice. John was in earshot, and didn't react -- I suspect he had heard the story many times!

How unhappy people make others and themselves! I think of what Martha said: "I am still determined to be cheerful and happy, in whatever situation I may be; for I have also learned from experience that the greater part of our happiness or misery depends upon our dispositions, and not upon our circumstances." No wonder everyone who knew her seemed fond of her!

JoanK asked me to post the pic of Ben Franklin's walking stick that he bequeathed to George Washington on this discussion.

Ben's Walking Stick

Does anyone know what a "cap of liberty" was?

We've been lauding the constitution - and we should, it's an amazing document - but it did have one great flaw, not dealing w/ slavery. The accepted theory seems to be that the nation would not have been able to come together if that issue came to the floor. I always have a hard time teaching that because I and the students are both unaccepting of the idea of slavery. It's hard to put ourselves in Phila in 1787 and figure out how they could have dealt w/ it.

In Imperfect God, there are two stories about the Washingtons and their slaves in Phila. One of them paints a not very nice picture of Martha. Her personal female slave, hairdresser and seamstress, Ona Judge, decided - perhaps after hearing that M was going to "pass her on" (isn't that appalling?) to a younger member of the Custis family and Ona may have feared that she would be sold from there - to escape from the Washingtons. There were many free Blacks in Phila and she could get help in doing that. She did escape and ended up in New Hampshire where after about 6 months she was spotted by a yng white woman who was a friend of Marthas and when questioned by her, Ona admitted that she had escaped. Geo was informed and - the author seems to think that GW would have allowed her to remain free, but MW was furious at the "disloyalty" of Ona and insisted that they get her back - asked someone in authority in NH to quietly try to recapture Ona and return her. That was a political nightmare for GW. One of the men that GW was in contact w/ warned Ona that she may be forcibly taken, so she escaped again to a town further away.

The other story that i am familiar w/ from the news - when they were building a new building to house the Liberty BEll, it was realized that everyone who entered the building would walk over the ground where the slaves of the Washingtons lived during GW's presidency in PHila. IRONIC!! Some people rallied to have the area MARKED so visitors would know that piece of history. There was a huge brouhaha w/ the Nat'l Park SErvice. The NPS wanted to label the area as the place where the W's "servants" lived, because there were also indentured servants there. The news stories bro't more support for the authentic labeling of the area and so the NPS finally agreed that it should be noted as the "slave quarters." I heard a wonderful talk by the leader of the "authentic labeling" side, in a church in phila, where he gave the details of the discussions w/ the NPS.

This is a good ex of how history can be distorted and how some people's history doesn't get told automatically.......jean

Here is an interesting link about the Cap of Liberty.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf-cap.html

and "les miserables"

just didn't put it together....thanks Pat....jean

Joan: Egad, that's a sad story about your aunt. For goodness' sake! How awful.

MarjV: Thanks for the photo of Ben's walking stick! That's really neat. I was talking to my dad (in the nursing home) about it after I read about it. My dad told me something I hadn't known before. He owns a cane/walking stick that belonged to William Seward (Lincoln's Secretary of State). It has a sword inside of it. Gentlemen carried them for self-defense as well as for fashion and for walking assistance. Seward's name is on the cane. My husband and I dashed off to my parents' home to look at it. I'll have to take a picture of it some time.

Jean: Weren't those stories amazing! I think everyone should read An Imperfect God. There are so many astounding stories in it.

Pat: Thanks for the info about the liberty cap. I wonder if that is what Madame Defarge was knitting in A Tale of Two Cities.

Here is a frieze of "America" wearing a liberty cap:

http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/rotunda/frieze/america.cfm?displaylargeimages=1

Here is a picture of a liberty cap, a piece of "folk art" - Scroll down to the bottom right-hand corner of the page: http://www.srwhitecarving.com/page7.html

Today is the first day of our final week discussing Founding Mothers. Pat has put up our new Questions for Consideration in the Header above. Also, Pat added our final Timeline (below) to our list of timeslines available when you click on Timeline Links above.

Thanks, Pat!

Timeline 1784-1790:

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/rev-nation.htm

Who wants to try a question first!!??

Here is info/pictures of several of Kitty and Nathanael Greene's homes:

Their first home(Rhode Island): http://members.aol.com/JonMaltbie/Homestead.html

Information about Mulberry Grove Plantation: http://www.mulberrygrove.org/

Cumberland Island and Dungeness: Dungeness

Although she was an English author, Mary Wollstonecraft's work Vindication of the Rights of Women (1792) was lauded by American women and men; (page 254) she stirred up controversial topics including the civil rights of women.

Here's a link giving her biography:
Wollstonecraft

Right on that same page is the answer for "which state"
New Jersey was the first state to allow women to vote!

Yes, NJ's first laws about who could vote allowed anyone who owned 50lbs of property could vote, therefore, single women and widows who had inherited property could vote and did. However in 1807 when NJ wrote a new constitution it included a phrase that said excluded from voting were women, negroes, convicts and idiots!!!! ......one step forward, two steps back.....we must be diligent.....jean

Wow, Marni - I'm really impressed that your family has a cane that was owned by William Seward. The folks on Antiques Roadshow would LOVE to have you visit them.

Marni,

You have a treasure!! I can't believe the walking stick is in your family. That's just wonderful!

Mabel,

Thank you for the all the interesting information. I especially was saddened about Ona and Martha Washington. That's a very sad story. i can't imagine living with the fact that my freedom could disappear because the friend of a slave owner recognized me. It's really terrifying.

I am still waiting for my GW and Slaves to arrive in the mail. I hope it comes today.

MarjV,

Thank you for bring over the walking stick. Why don't you pull up a chair, have a glass of Madeira and stay awhile?

We would certainly enjoy your company.

Mippy,

Thank you. I didn't know New Jersey was the first state to allow women to vote. Hurrah to New Jersey!

I was all set to raise my madeira glass to New Jersey and then I read Jean's post about how they took the vote away from women! The rats! And to include "women and negroes" with "convicts and idiots." Thank you very much, New Jersey! But that was pretty neat for women for a little while anyway.

Mippy: That is absolutely the most fascinating article about Wollstonecraft. OMG, she was a woman ahead of her time!!!! What a story! I absolutely have to read a biography about her! Maybe if there's a good one out there, that would be a good book discussion for next year's Women's History Month.

And Mippy wins for answering one of the new questions first!

Re: "Isn't Cumberland Island where JFK,JR was married?" Jean: You're right! I just looked it up. John John and Caroline were married there and honeymooned on a yacht.

My dad DOES have a treasure! I hope I inherit it! I wonder how much something like that would be worth?

Marni, I'm sure it is valuable. You might check with the Smithsonian - maybe finding out who through their web site. A friend here had an old piano with local historical significance. She got some very helpful information from somebody at Smithsonian about how to find out a value and what to do with something like that. She did have to have it appraised locally, but the man she talked to was quite helpful.

Thank you, Mary. That's a good idea.

I like your Spanish proverb.

MARNI: yes, you should have it appraised. although if it's valuable, it might make you nervous!

I wonder if you have to do anything special to preserve it? Probably not: They're meant to be sturdy, but you might find out. Sometimes I watch a show on PBS called "History Detective", where they take an artifact that someone brings them and find out things about it's history (Much more interesting than "Antiques Roadshow" because they really go into depth about the history and the times). They were doing something with a walking stick once (I don't remember what) and went to a man who was an expert in walking sticks. He showed off his collection, which was gorgeous.

I still wonder if women carried them. And if they followed the popular custom of having a sword inside in case they had to defend themselves.

Re: 2. What did Abigail mean when she wrote as the first Vice President’s wife: "...all distinction you know is unpopular?"

I thought it was interesting how the members of the government and their wives had to be careful not to appear "monarchical." The country was emerging from a civil war and rebellion against a king and a monarchy. The new republic was setting an example of republican govt., behavior and fashion. The leaders, as Abigail says, couldn't appear with too much "distinction" or pomp or they would be accused of attempting to create a monarchy, as the Federalists were accused.

This type of thing was carried to an extreme during the French Revolution when titles of the aristocracy were dropped and people called each other Citizen -------. I read that the Marquis de la Fayette changed his name to Lafayette.

Martha Washington was described as wearing homespun.

On the other hand, fine dress certainly was worn to some fancy affairs. What an amusing story that Betsey Hamilton told - the story of the reception at the President’s house. Ladies wore ostrich plumes in their hair for evening dress. A Miss McEvers’ plumes were so high, and the ceiling was so low, that her plumes caught on fire from chandelier candles! Washington’s aide-de-camp smothered the flames with his hand.

Joan: I think that show "History Detectives" is really interesting.

Didn't some women carry small revolvers in their purses? I'm not sure when that started, though. Maybe that was later.

I just found out that the revolver wasn't even invented until 1818.

This is kind of off the subject, but I just read the new Smithsonian Magazine and there is a very interesting article about John Paul Jones who, according to some, is one of our Founding Fathers, the Father of the Navy. The article is about his death, burial, and later re-burial at Annapolis. It poses the question: Is the body in the vault at Annapolis really the body of John Paul Jones?

Jones was a brave and experienced Scottish seaman who moved to America for a period and became a captain and commodore in the new American "navy." He made some effort to get Congress to expand the navy and to create a naval academy to train seaman and suggested ideas for training. He became famous in America and in France, and notorious in Britain, during the Revolution when his ship, the Bonhomme Richard (named for Franklin after his almanac), forced the British ship Serapis to surrender under incredible circumstances. Jones was awarded the 7th Congressional Gold Medal for his service. (That was the precursor to the Congressional Medal of Honor which was created during the Civil War. George Washington received the first. See whole list in link below.)

After the war, Jones couldn't get a commission from America and headed to Europe to find a ship. He died in Paris at age 47, sick and alone, apparently of kidney disease in 1792 during the French Revolution. Records of his burial show that he was placed in a lead-lined coffin in a preservative (mummified) and buried in a small Protestant burial ground. The burial ground was lost, covered over by the expanding city. He was tracked down in the late 19th century. In 1905 Teddy Roosevelt, a huge promoter of the American Navy, paid to have his body recovered and returned to America as a great American hero amidst huge pomp and circumstance. He is interred in an elaborate marble vault designed after that of Napoleon and guarded 24/7 by naval cadets.

Some do not believe the body at Annapolis is that of John Paul Jones. The research of those who found and tested the body has been questioned. (Much research and measuring was done, and the face was compared to the life mask sculpture made by Houdon.)

A miniature painting of Jones exists in a locket with a braid of his hair. Some have suggested that DNA testing should be done comparing the hair in the locket to the remains in the vault. The author of the Smithsonian article doubts this will be allowed as Jones is so revered.

Here is a picture of (I believe) the miniature painting of Jones. Scroll down to the middle of the page:

John Paul Jones Miniature

List of recipients of the Congressional Gold Medal. Click on the blue to view each medal. Each is designed specifically for a particular hero: http://dallaslibrary.org/cgi/gold/goldmedals.html

Here is online info and pictures about Jones' death and return

I forgot to mention that it was Nancy Randolph's future husband, Gouverneur Morris, who was our French ambassador in Paris at the time of John Paul Jones' death in 1792. As Morris indicated in his daily journal, Jones went to see him often, trying to find employment with the American navy. Jones was kind of a complainer and was "down and out" and Morris got tired of his complaints and requests.

It was Gouverneur Morris who found Jones lying dead on his bed shortly after he died in his 3rd-floor Paris apartment.

Morris did not treat Jones with dignity. It was the French who buried Jones in an honorable casket and who "pickled" him in case America wanted her hero returned someday.

Right after Jones died, Morris received for John Paul Jones an offer of employment from George Washington.

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Well, I'm off to visit the parents in New London. I'll be back tonight. I'll wait til I'm home before I have any madeira!

Marni

One of the best things about studying history is that you find out that nothing is new! The things we think of today as 'terrible' and 'isn't it awful the way people are behaving today' aren't new! Human beings have always been the way they are today. Re the H/R scandal, people have always been adulterous and people have always blackmailed others and people have always lied about sexual affairs - and other unseemly affairs - and then they sometimes have to 'fess up!!! Nothing is new!!.......jean

C-SPAN schedule

I was just looking at the Booktv schedule for this week-end and saw some things you may be interested in: at 2:00 EST on Sat Washington's God will be discussed - his religion and politics; at 7:00 My Dear President - letters from and to presidents and their wives.

Also tonight (thurs) on CSPAN 2 at 7:00 there is a panel talking about the women of the civil rights movement. I read a book last year about them and it was very interesting, especially since we mostly see or hear about the men. ......jean

Mabel,

Thank you for the tv schedule.

Jean: Thanks for the tv schedule.

I thought the story of the Hamilton/Reynolds scandal was so interesting! It was like reading about Bill Clinton or something. There's something about men in power and women.....The amazing thing to me was how Hamilton published in the paper his innocence to claims that he had illegally used federal funds and he confessed openly his affair as his only guilt. His poor wife! She went around trying to buy up all of the newspapers so they weren't circulating! How humiliating!

Betsey Hamilton forgave her husband. I wonder how much she had to forgive him for during their marriage - especially when it seems he may have had an affair with her sister.

I guess the worst part for Betsey was his death and her son Philip's death before him. Her son died in a duel a year before his father - he got into a duel protecting his father's name. Then Hamilton and Burr went at it. From what I've read, Hamilton thought it was the gentlemanly thing to do. Apparently, he shot his gun off into the sky, deliberately to miss Burr. Then Burr took careful aim and shot to kill.

Hamilton apparently did not leave his wife with a lot of money. He was an extremely successful lawyer, and made plenty when he worked his cases. But he had spent so much of his life serving his country making very little.

I have to dash off to read about another interesting love affair - Admiral Horatio Nelson and Emma Hamilton. I'm just at the part where Nelson won his great victory of the Nile and Emma is gushing about what a great hero he is. I'm off to see what happens next!

You pick up so many interesting bits of information in this book. Living in the DC area, I always wondered why the US capital was here. It was a swamp here when they started to build. According to CR, it was a deal brokered by Jefferson. The Southern states agreed to a tax to reimburse the states that had gone into debt during the war in agreement for building a capital on the Potomac River.

It's interesting that CR records more complaints from Martha Washington as president's wife than during the Revolution. That sounds very human. During the war, she seems to have been the one who kept everyone else's spirits up. Afterwords, she probably let down her guard, and couldn't muster the same bravery for a dull day by day routine.

Good post, Joan (amica mea)
I was likewise fascinated by Jefferson's role in founding D.C.,
as we lived in the area for 16 years, before moving to Florida.
As an aside, the web pages for D.C., itself, did not yield the kind of
history often found using Google for most cities and states;

But this link is interesting: History of D.C.

That's a good summary of history and statistics. I spent my early childhood near Fort Stevens where, according to some stories, Lincoln got his hat shot off when the confederates invaded Washington. I remember sitting on a Civil War cannon at that spot and looking out at what I imagined was Lincoln's view of the attacking army.

The demographics are a little misleading. Since DC only includes the city and all of the suburbs are in the two surrounding states, what you see are the demographics of the central city, not of the whole region.

Today I bought a used copy of "Lincoln" by Gore Vidal. I have forgotten who recommended it.

Mippy, thank you for the link.

Hats: I read Lincoln, a historical novel, before Christmas. I loved it. Gore really did his homework. Then I went on to read Lincoln: Team of Rivals, nonfiction, which I enjoyed even more.

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JoanK and Mippy: You are both so lucky to have lived in the D.C. area. There is such an incredible amount of interesting things to do there and places to see - and so many of them are free to the public. I just love to visit.

That was quite a story about the compromise that resulted in moving the country's capital from New York to, temporarily, Philadelphia, and then to Washington, D.C. Hamilton was able to get his tax plan through, luckily for the country. Some of the states - I guess in the south - were really unhappy about having to chip in to pay off states' debts because they had already paid off their own state debts. But they were appeased to have the capital in their own territory.

It was George Washington who actually picked the site of the new capital. Naturally, it was not too far from Mt. Vernon. And Washington had vested interests in a city on the Potomac. He believed that the Potomac was the future highway leading to the settlement of the west. He invested in a canal company (the Potomac Canal Co.??) which built a canal through parts of the Potomac to make it easier to transport people and goods from the Atlantic, along the Potomac, to the west. (Washington had bought a lot of western land that he wanted to rent or sell to settlers.) The only problem was getting through the mountains. The Cumberland Gap was the gateway through the mountains from the Potomac. It wasn't an easy route.

People realized later that it was easier to build a man-made canal through New York (Erie Canal) from the Atlantic at NYC to Lake Erie because the Mohawk Valley was a natural and easier route through the mountains to the Great Lakes and to the West. The Potomac never ended up becoming the highily anticipated routeway. It was the Erie Canal and New York that ended up making the money.

I was thinking about Martha Washington's levees as the First Lady. It was interesting to hear how she felt like a prisoner as First Lady. She was the first. She had to set some precedents, just like George had to set precedents. It looks like Martha did an admirable job.

I think the first time I really took notice of a First Lady was when Jackie Kennedy came aboard and gave her televised tour of the white house and talked so intelligently about the history of some of the furnishings. It was a new look at her - not just honing in on her hair and clothes.

The first time I was really cheering for a First Lady was when Hillary Clinton came aboard and was so strong, intelligent, and actively involved in a new take-charge way. She really upset a lot of people, including a lot of women, and that certainly got me thinking. Like her or not, Hillary set some new precedents.

Marni,

I really did enjoy reading about the George Washington's residence in New York. Then, the move to Philadelphia. I don't think his residence is called "The White House" yet. I didn't know George Washington was the President to choose putting the White House in Washington. That makes sense he would have been closer to Mt. Vernon.

I do remember reading about Martha Washington feeling like a "prisoner" as the First Lady. I enjoyed reading about the cook being chosen from the tavern, Samuel Fraunces. He left his job as a cook at the Washington's residence. Then, an ad was put in the newspaper.

Recently, last year maybe, Laura Bush hired a new Chef, a lady. I think she is the first woman to serve in the White House as head chef. I don't know how the White House advertises for staff now. Is an ad put in the local Washington newspapers or is the ad put in some elegant cuisine magazine?

Do you remember Jackie Kennedy's Pillbox hats?

Next time Marni I will try to follow the questions more closely.

JoanK, do you remember those Pillbox hats?

Talking about Martha Washington, this probably has been mentioned, I liked the fact that MW continued to remember the Revolutionary soldiers. She enjoyed talking and sharing their memories. She never allowed herself to forget that without those soldiers freedom would have been just a word.

Thinking of the Revolutionary soldiers makes me remember Nathaniel Greene again. I think it was so wonderful how he gave from his own finances to get garments for the soldiers. Nathaniel and Kitty Greene really are memorable for their honesty and the willingness to help the Revolution.

and running to something else. Loved Jackie's pillboxes and her whole style....nobody since has come close to being so smartly dressed.....jean

Hats: I surely do remember Jackie's pillbox hats. (I was glad I didn't have to wear them. It was in the 60's and I was at an age and in a time where we were rebelling against wearing hats.) She was always so elegant. I thought at the time it was wonderful that the presidential couple was so young and handsome and elegant and intelligent. It was strange to hear years later about Jack's infidelities. She must have been going through something similar to what Hillary went through.

Today so much is discovered quickly by the media that people in govt. have to have few skeletons in the closet - or be able to hide them well. Just think of the great presidents and their first ladies who would never have made it to the White House with today's media scrutiny and the expectations the public has. We expect everyone running for office to be perfection.

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Hats: That's an interesting question - how does the White House advertise for staff. I have no idea. They must have a huge network and get needs out by word of mouth. I wonder how much nepotism is involved....how many favors are returned....

Well, I guess the name of George Washington's friend, George Mason, is going to be much better know after today. George Mason U. just beat UConn this afternoon and are going to the Final Four. This is the first Final Four since 1980 that no #1 seeds will be playing.

Our Founding Mothers discussion has come to an end. Cokie Roberts had heard a lot about what the Founding Fathers had done for our country. But she had wanted to know what our Founding Mothers had been up to. She knew the men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, fought the Revolution, and formed the government couldn't have done it without the women.

Cokie came to the conclusion, as she got to know the women, "that there's nothing unique about them. They did - with great hardship, courage, pluck, prayerfulness, sadness, joy, energy, and humor - what women do. They put one foot in front of the other in remarkable circumstances. They carried on. They truly are our Founding Mothers."

Let's raise our glasses of Madeira to our Founding Mothers and to Cokie Roberts.

Thank you all for joining this discussion. I enjoyed it very much.

Marni

Marni and JoanK,

Both of you have done a wonderful job. I really enjoyed the book and all of the extra information given during this month. Looking forward to being with both of you in another wonderful book discussion.

I heard about the "other" George Mason too.

I definitely remember pill box hats. And Jackie. The one time I saw her in person, I worked in Georgetown a few blocks from where the Kennedy's then lived. A bunch of us were going to lunch when we saw Jackie, about 9 months pregnant with John- John, teetering slowly and precariously down an almost vertical hill in four-inch heels!! We stood at the bottom, watching in horror, not knowing whether we should run up and grab her or not. Do you get thanked if you grab Jackie Kennedy, or arrested? Luckily, she made it without our help!!

The one time I saw Hilary Clinton, I think I saw one reason why some people reacted against her. She walks like a man -- she really strides out. I think this really arouses the sexism in some people. Of course, there are genuine reasons why some might not like her beliefs, but not everyone we disagree with politically arouses such strong feelings. I read that Eleanor Roosevelt had the same effect on some people.

I didn't know that George Washington had ordered the C&O Canal. It's not used now for commerce, but is a real treasure for local residents. It is the best place for a weekend canoe or walk or bike along the towpath. It has some of the best places to see birds in the United States: many of the birds I talked about in Audubon, I first saw there. Thank you, George.

Thanks to George also for founding George Washington University, my alma mater. It never grew into the great national university, as he thought it would, but I got a good education there.

Not to be confused with George Mason. This year, The DC area sent its three Georges to the March madness: George Washington, George Mason, and Georgetown (do you think we're overdoing this George thing). Only George Mason did well. I don't know about you, Marni, but I don't have any fingernails left!!

I can't believe this discussion is over. I will miss it a lot. Three "Huzzahs" for Marni, who did a fantastic job. And huzzahs to the rest of us too. We're the best!