We began yesterday by discussing Stephen Ambrose's warning to Tom Brokaw about the importance of recalling the savage nature of war along with the heroics and achievements of war.

Our posters yesterday agreed with Mr. Ambrose. Do you? Theron reminded us of the Korean War, which many have FORGOTTEN. That's where we were yesterday - the importance of remembering the reality of war.

Were the young people who rushed to serve after Pearl Harbor aware of the true nature of war? Were YOU?

I am thinking of Question #5 that Joan posed above (click onto the MORE box.) Were there many like Tom Broderick, who is described in Brokaw's book, who went into the service "seeking adventure?" I believe that there was a significant number of them but I also look at the "serial numbers." A serial number was the ID attached to each person as he came into the service. If he enlisted, his number began with "1." If he was drafted, his number began with "3." (They didn't use SS numbers in those days). In the course of my duties over the 3 years 10 months I was in the service when I had access to large amounts of serial numbers, I can tell you that the quantity of 3's was far greater than the 1's. (I don't know the national ratio.)

This is not to say that many of those drafted did not later become heroes in one way or another. But I think of that old phrase I believe referred to earlier; "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them." If they were going to become great, a majority of them waited until it was thrust upon them. Does this imply that the majority of young men were cowards? No, but put yourself in their place at that time. One can love his country but not immediately dash out for adventure which might lead to death. Tom Broderick was a special kind of person who I do not believe represented the average man of that time.

As you read Pages 17 through 24 in Brokaw's book, you will come to your own conclusion. What do you think?

Robby

If you use subscriptions, BE SURE TO CLICK ONTO THE "SUBSCRIBE" BOX BELOW !!!

Thank you, Yuri, for accepting your "assignment" and we are looking forward to hearing from you. Hopefully, you can post from the various places you will be in France. Bon voyage!!

Robby

Can justification possibly be determined by results? If the colonists had lost their "revolt" to the British, would the Revolutionary War have been justified. If Hitler had won, would WWII have been justified? Or is war justified (if ever) by its intent?

Robby

I have so many questions for you - every time you post answers...more questions!

~Was it only the very young 17-18-19 year olds who enlisted en masse after learning of Pearl Harbor? Was it only the young who were looking for adventure? I guess the only way to get answers is from your own memories and experience? Ray, Art, Jim, Dick G. - Robby? What was it like for you? Was it a sense of duty mixed with excitement...was there fear? Did you know the danger?

~ Those of you who went on to Korea...Jim, Theron - was it out of choice? Theron, you mentioned "patriotic draft resister" Were many drafted? Were their protests? Did you have the same sense of purpose as you did in WWII? Were you feeling FORGOTTEN during the war?

---

~ Here's another question for which there may not be an answer... If Veterans of War spoke up of the real horror of war, how would we ever get anyone to enlist? To put their lives on the line? Is duty and patriotism that strong? Does this explain the Vietnam War protests? I know so many of you had sons who fought in Vietnam. Could you share with us what that was like for you to see them go?

It's one thing to say, in hindsight that there should have been another way, but the fact is, it was simply too late!

Studs' point, and I think Brokaw's, is that it is important to listen to the hard realities of war from the mouths of those who had no other options at the time, and rose to defend not only their own hides, but all of those they left behind. Hopefully, listening to the stories and finding that it was not what some of the movies of exultant valor and victory portray, our leaders, our populace, will make all the right choices and take all the right steps before we ever get into such a situation again. Of course, that's the ideal - and if we ever really get into it again, it will be a very different kind of war, I'm afraid.

When I first met him his blindness wasn’t as far advanced as it was going to be. As the years rolled on his blindness became much worse. He then had to use chess pieces and boards specially made for the blind chess players and his opponents were required to use his pieces and board in these tournaments. The blind players would move these special chess pieces by feel and move the pegged chess pieces into squares containing small peg holes for the pegs of the chess pieces. A lot of the chess games we played were tournament rated games and there were time limits imposed on these rated games, and to make make matters worse, rated tournament games are “touch, move.” Bob didn’t let this faze him he would join right in and he would win some of these tounament games.

Bob would also travel by jet plane to other cities to play in tournament games for the blind. But by this time both his diabetes and blindness were very advanced. His family would not accompany him on these journeys, I don’t believe there was money enough for any family member to accompany him, but they would see to it that he got on the plane safely and some one would be there to meet him when he would deplane. I suppose it was one of the tournament officials, however, I’m not sure. He played in one of these chess tournament’s for the blind in another city shortly before he died--he was only in his early fortes when he died, leaving a wife and children. He admitted to me “...that last out of town tournament was pretty rough.”

I never once heard Bob complain about either of his two handicaps even when they become severe. When he would “see” me, he would always greet me with a cheery “Hi, Bill.” Now, I know Bob was not of our generation--I was considerably older than he. But. I’m sure with his integrity, fortitude and great will to strive on through these hardships, he would have fit right in. After all, he had all qualifications that were necssary to be part of the “greatest.”

Bill H

And I think we have much to learn from his post on his war injury and post war experience ~ echoing Tom Broderick's story. Perhaps he"ll repost it in this NEW discussion and talk to us about it.

Time for dinner...reheated lasagne in 94 degree heat...how's that for planning?

There was a lot of sense in what Malyrn said about "when in combat it all boils down to fighting for your own skin." When I started basic training the war was still raging. We had a tough, tough old army 1st Seargent. One day he stood in front of the company formation and said. "Forget about this bull s... that your fighting for your country, when you go into combat you're going to fighting for your own ass."

Bill H

At the expense of sounding too pedantic and too theoretical, I would say that as long as human beings (and other organisms for that matter) exist, there will be differences. Is it stretching it too much to point out that chimpanzees and and birds and lizards and fish and insects have differences? And the law of life says that these differences must be resolved. There is a winner and a loser.

I can hear a score of voices saying at this point that we human beings are above those other organisms and that we have learned the art of negotiation. Have we? Compared to those other organisms we have been on the scene for such a short period of time. Cool rational heads occasionally arise but what psychologists call the reptilian brain (the lizard brain) - the old part of the brain - still runs on emotion and for most of us is as powerful as ever and overrides the "thinking" portion.

So we are all caught up in it. The bands play, the flag waves, the orator expounds -- and we are off to the recruiting office.

Please, folks, let us not downgrade the person who like everyone else was caught up in the moment of emotion but then used his skills and inner strength to help bring us back to peace and rationality. There is such a thing as heroism. There is such a thing as placing a higher value over oneself. Witness the mother who dashes in front of the car to save her child.

Think back to Hitler and Tojo times. Where would we be now if every American and other Allied citizens had refused to fight and said: "Wait a bit; let's negotiate." I personally believe that while most of in combat took great measures to "save our skin" that this was not the primary reason we accepted being drafted. The four freedoms meant something to us.

Robby

You have also reminded us that people (sometimes nations) "must first be stopped from acting out their destructive ways prior to rehabilitation." I think of drug abusers who sometimes must be placed in jail after having committed a crime but then, if we are a thinking society, we now put them in a rehab and hopefully turn them into productive people. War is often a necessary way (even if we don't like it) of stopping nations from destructive ways but after we have "jailed" them, if we are wise we apply a Marshall Plan.

Barbara, I like very much your question wondering if World War I vets helped to contribute to the values of those in the GG.

Faith: I agree. We are doing exactly what Brokaw requested. We are talking to the younger generations and in being truthful are also talking about the horrors of war. We are trying to teach a lesson from the experiences of our own lives.

Marguerite: Your analogy is great. "It takes only one to start a fight" but then "others rush to the rescue." The UK rushed to the rescue when Poland was invaded (based upon a previous agreement) and now the war was on.

WONDERFUL WONDERFUL POSTINGS!! And what I find so terrific is that despite the passions of our participants (how can it be otherwise with such a passionate subject), no one is taking potshots at any individuals. We are sticking to the issues. Thanks to everyone for making this such a productive forum!!!

Robby

Robby

The reluctance to speak about war experience is more a problem than "crowing"...someone said in one of the Brokaw books that anyone bragging about what he did in WWII was no where near the war.

You saw the results of the horrors of war when you were still at an impressionable age and that has stayed with you for life. As I said in an earlier posting, my father was a World War I vet and received a 100% disability pension. I never saw him go to work although his mind was sharp. In addition, my mother used to submit essays and poems to various periodicals regarding the veterans -- what they went through and how they were treated. As I observed and listened, I was also at an impressionable age.

Despite that, six months after the U.S. was attacked, I enlisted. Notice -- I did not enlist immediately. I had a pretty good idea what war was like and was not looking forward to it. At the same time, the nature of the times was such that it was obvious that something had to be done and the alternative was to go hide in a cave somewhere for "X" amount of years.

When major world events take place, we are all pawns on a chessboard. Some of us think we are in charge but we pause, think it through, and then take whatever move seems the most logical at the moment - both from a national and a personal point of view. 99% of us enter the military without any thought that we are going to be heroes and 99% of us leave the military knowing that we were not heroes.

Was it Eleanor Roosevelt who said: "You must do the things that you think you cannot do?"

Robby

I say "sometimes" because many of them were completely "out of it." They didn't know where they were or they thought they were in Europe or in the Pacific area. Some could talk and some could not. Some were absolutely mute and had been that way for 30 years. Some would look at you with vacant eyes. Some would cry. Some would shout out unintelligible words or if they were intelligible, it might be something like "Watch out! There's a sniper over there!" Their lives had been arrested emotionally at some traumatic moment during the war and they had never "grown" since then.

We may feel sorry for the mother or father whose son was killed but have you ever thought of the family whose son, brother, cousin, father did come home but only physically and who spent the rest of his life in a V.A. hospital in the mental ward?

I repeat Mal's comment that "it wouldn't hurt if any of you visited a VA hospital." If you have the nerve!!

Robby

Robby

Lois, will you tell us more of your room-mate and her feelings about growing up in the camp? Was that in CA or in the heartland?

Thank you all for what you are bringing to this discussion!

I relate completely to that! I am trying very hard to be fair to the "younger" generations but I, also, see a lack of feeling of responsibility around me. If this is, indeed, true then the reason may stem back to earlier discussions here where we spoke of our Great Depression years. We had hardships, we had chores, we grew up quickly, and shirking was just not part of life. My parents always put the two "R's" together - Rights and Responsibilities. If I was old enough to have specific rights, then I was old enough to have specific responsibilities. Those of us who found ourselves in the military knew immediately what our superiors meant when they used the word "responsibility." We may not have liked it but we did it. "You're in the Army, Mr. Jones!"

Training like this (at least I believe it was true in my case) lasts for a lifetime. I like to think that people can rely on me and that I don't look to others to bear the brunt. Any further thoughts on this?

Robby

Can you give some examples of your own life or of those you know who, although disabled in one way or another, move on ahead in life without complaining?

Robby

What is your experience?

Robby

Thank you for sharing the thoughts of your good buddy. You say he is "computer literate" so perhaps he would enjoy sharing directly with us while you continue to do the same. He is so right about it being "very very cold!!" How well I remember that winter!!

What are some of your reactions, Pat, to our quotes from Brokaw's book?

Robby

Can you help us to understand how the thought "they are shooting to kill us" would soon pass? How could something which would give you such a powerful adrenalin rush disappear like that so that the next day you are ready to do it again?

Robby

You bring up an important point in comparing generations that the current "drug culture" generation seems to follow the peer pressure of "following not leading." How would you relate that to our generation in which, as we entered the military, we were taught immediately to follow.

Robby

What you have quoted speaks for itself and I wouldn't dare comment on it.

I will, however, pull out one phrase which I believe to be apropos in this Discussion Group.

"Two people can look at the same thing and see it totally different."

Thank you, Pat.

Robby

I was not acquainted with those facts but, as you say, those of us who have honest military records do not want to be connected with those who found it necessary to create their own.

Robby

I agree with you that we are now at that point in our discussion of Brokaw's book where we are speaking of the military and personal lives of the various people interviewed by Brokaw and perhaps bringing up personal experiences which relate in one form or another to the themes that Brokaw emphasizes. At the present time we are giving our reactions to the stories of Tom Broderick (pg 17-24).

As you all know, this Discussion Group comes under the folder in Senior Net entitled Books and Literature and we are currently reviewing "The Greatest Generation." Your comments specifically about this book or your personal experiences which you believe relate to it would be appreciated. If you have not had the opportunity to obtain this book, comments by others can give you an idea of our current discussions.

Robby

There's no such thing as an answer here being "correct." We each give our answers as we see them.

Lee uses so many powerful phrases that relate directly to the THEME above. He talks about "direction," "wanting to accomplish something," "values," "horizons in our future," "sense of belonging," and "work ethics."

How do you react to what Lee has told us? Do any of your experiences or of others you know relate to the THEME above?

Robby

Does this ring a bell with anyone here? Do you know of anyone in your family or an acquaitance with WWII experience who applied "duty and honor" in the civilian world after the cessation of hostilities?

In no way, as I see it, does any of this detract from Lee's WWII memory of the importance of "direction," "values," "wanting to accomplish something," "horizons in our future," "sense of belonging," and "work ethics."

As you folks continue to read GG between pages 17 and 77, (or if you don't have the books, look at the themes in our heading) do you see any of Lee's quotes as being relevant? Do you see any of it being practiced?

Robby

Are there any memories here of relatives or friends from the WWII generation who showed duty and responsibility to that degree - in any line of work - after the war?

Robby

Van Gorder says it (pg 34) in different words:--"Another legacy of the World War II generation is the strong commitment to family values and community. They were mature beyond their years in their twenties."

Do you relate to any of the themes in the paragraphs above?

Robby

Bill H

Hendie had a friend who, after the war, became a priest in a quiet hamlet similarly to Van Gorder in Brokaw's book who became a physician in a quiet hamlet.

Mal feels that glorifying that particular generation is like glorifying war. How about their accomplishments during the Great Depression, Mal?

Faith found that veterans in general didn't glorify themselves,that they "hated war" and that their attitude affected their children, the Boomers who, Faith believes, are more honest than their parents' generation.

Mary Koerner saw examples of veterans entering the civilian field of police work and, in so doing, helping people in all walks of life.

In speaking of Wesley Ko (pg 37), Brokaw believes that "a sense of personal responsibility and a commitment to honesty is characteristic of this generation." He adds: "Values were bred into the young men and woman coming of age at the time the war broke out. It's how they were raised."

Any additional comments from your own personal experiences?

Robby

Any similarities in your life?

Robby

When I was on tour of the British Isle, there wasn't enough time for me to go there. That's the trouble with the tour vacations--either keep up or get left behind. Thanks again.

Bill H

Bill H

 
      WAR 

      I despise 
      'Cos it means destruction 
      Of innocent lives 
      War means tears 
      To thousands of mothers eyes 
      When their sons go off to fight 
      And lose their lives  

      War! 
      Is an enemy 
      To all mankind 
      The thought of war 
      Blows my mind 
      War has caused unrest 
      Within the younger generation 
      Induction, and then destruction 
      Who wants to die!?  

      War! 
      Has shattered 
      Many a man's dreams 
      Made him disabled 
      Bitter and mean 
      Life is just too short and precious 
      To be fighting wars each day 
      War can't give life 
      It can only take it away 

As a Veteran of the Korean War - I have to agree. Even my grandson who is now in his first year of college made the remark"Oh Yeah, I've heard of it."

Now I sit me down in school     Where praying is against the rule     For this great nation under God     Finds mention of Him very odd.     If Scripture now the class recites,     It violates the Bill of Rights.     And anytime my head I bow     Becomes a Federal matter now.     Our hair can be purple, orange or green,     That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.     The law is specific, the law is precise.     Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.     For praying in a public hall     Might offend someone with no faith at all.     In silence alone we must meditate,     God's name is prohibited by the state.     We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks, And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.     They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.     To quote the Good Book makes me liable.     We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,     And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.     It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,     We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.     We can get our condoms and birth controls,     Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.     But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,     It's scary here I must confess,     When chaos reigns the school's a mess.     So, Lord, this silent plea I make:     Should I be shot; My soul please take!

Pat

I believe that mothers were also the great war "heroes." My mother died when I was nine years old and my father, a World War I disabled vet took care of me until I was sixteen. My mother's death was a great tragedy in my life but in another sense she was spared seeing me go off to war.

I remember the many windows where there were small flags with blue stars indicating the number of men of that family who were in the military and the flags with gold stars indicating the number of men who in that family lost their lives in the war. While those of us in combat were undergoing terrible experiences, I think now of the mothers who had no idea where we were and what was happening to us. I think of the unnumbered sleepless nights they must had with horrible imaginations cluttering their minds. In many ways, in my opinion, this was worse than actually being in combat.

Some flags had two, three, and four blue stars. Some flags had one gold star. The most horrible case, of course, was that of Mrs. Sullivan who proudly had a flag with five blue stars on it, came to the door to greet an offical Navy representative and, in the twinkling of an eye, the five blue stars were now to be changed to five gold stars. Is there any combat experience that can be worse than what happened to this mother learning what had happened to her five "babies?"

Two organizations still exist -- Blue Star Mothers (although the membership is less than during WWII and Gold Star Mothers. Does anyone here have any personal experience with Blue and Gold Stars? Does anyone want to share?

Robby

I repeat -- mothers were also among the unsung "heroes" of that war.

Robby

The first Gold star in our neighborhood was "Okie." A tall slender fellow he whistled where ever he went. As he walked home from school -- as he delivered his papers -- you would know his coming as he whistled. In our small neighborhood we all knew each other and before the war was over three of "ours" would be Gold stars. On our street we did have several different faiths - and religion was a large part of our life.

Did you know the mothers of those three friends of yours who lost their lives in the war?

Robby

I wonder why that was?

Robby

Regards the letter writing -- mine were always addressed to my Dad and sister. Mother was killed in an auto accident in 1941.

On this Mothers Day, what other stories can we share here regarding that very very special person?

Robby

Any other stories to share regarding the role of mothers during World War II?

Robby

Any additional stories regarding mothers in that era?

Robby

His stories of how his brother, an air force pilot, came to bomb the steel mill he was working in were related to me many times. His brother of course had no idea Jack was working in the steel mill. Actually when the Japanese heard the bombers coming they would gather the prisoners into a tunnel where they were all safe.

As we continue to read Brokaw's book, we see between pages 135 and 179 (as indicated in the question above) that, in addition to mothers, women in general played a vital role in conducting this war. Lee tells us about nurses and what some of them went through. The temptation is to call World War II a "man's" war but detailed examination shows us that it was truly a "world" war -- that every person in the majority of nations around the world was involved in one way or another.

Let us then not only examine these pages which are devoted to the role of women but dig into our memories and share what we find with other participants here. For those from another generation who were not old enough to have these memories, your reactions and comments are welcome.

Robby

Mal, you state that Major Picard had been a school teacher. Colonel Mary Hallaren, discussed beginning on Page 139 in GG, had been a junior high school teacher. Under Eisenhower, she oversaw the upgrade of the Women's Army AUXILIARY Corps to the Women's Army Corps. Her reaction to comments about her being only five feet tall describes her character.

Robby

Robby

Your mother was obviously one of those unsung "heroes" -- by herself raising 14 children and then seeing them leave for possible death. You also point out the importance that letters had to each mother, in your mother's case saving each one and later returning them to the sender. Thank you for giving us another instance of the significant place of mothers during that world conflict.

Robby

Robby

Does this story trigger any memories?

Robby

In Memorie to my Mother Agnes Wright Lake

June 17th 1909 till March 18th 1997

I would like to read the book so will request it in the right discussion.

I recieved The Greatest Generation just before going to England and picked it up every chance I got, after I was done reading it we searched for The Greatest Generation Speaks to no avail in England, but bought it before going to my house when I got back. Thank you Jim.

Have you checked out the photo gallery in the Seniornet's Greatest link up in the heading? Take a look at those three handsome faces! Yours could be there too...am waiting for Robby to locate his...

Jim Olson, I have gone back to read all of your clickable and did so enjoy that I was on long distance for one half hour. Thank you again.

Well put Robby Thanks.

In our trip to England we went thru the Churchil (sp)( I am very sick) bomb shelter and it was so impressive. He had a place to go as did our President etc. It was far underground. Will expand more later. Special telephone line to FDR. I must go lay down, but will be back later to join in all of this.

On Page 38 of Speaks, Veronica Mackey Hulick, who worked with computers, said: ""When we got a print out from the computer, we couldn't read it. We tore it off quickly, ran to a door at the end of the room, knocked, and a hand came out and took it."

Apparently the hand that rocks the cradle also carried vital secrets to unidentified hands. Any other stories of women's role in World War II?

Robby

Pollyra: We need someone like you to remind us of another extremely important responsibility during the war -- phone operators who were primarily women.

Keep those stories coming, folks. Where else did women play a vital part in the war effort?

Robby

If you were in a small town like that, you probably knew the folks you were connecting! Yes, you were handling very sensitive calls of utmost importance, weren't you? Did you have anyone close to you on the front? You must have some stories to tell, small town or large! We'd love to hear more from you!

Welcome, Polly! Your name has been entered into "SN's Greatest" in the heading!

What kind of shows did you put on for the pilots?

Robby

Perhaps I am misunderstanding. Did you mean that you were "sorry" that the war was over on VE Day?

Robby

Robby

Are there any women here who were active either as civilians or in the military during the war who relate to that?

Robby

Amazing that you kept the military secrets for 25 years! No wonder you feel funny talking about them even now! On the Net! To thousands! Are you sure these secrets have been declassified? Do you know more about the "Enigma" (love the name - sounds so veddy British)- and how it was spirited out of Germany to England. You were using it to decode German radio messages?
This is fascinating!

Even in combat, the male machismo was strong. Any memories here about the effect of women on men during the war?

Robby

gladys What memories to be wed on the day the war ended. Thanks all for sharing.

My Mother worked for the Kingbury aminunition plant at one time during the war, very dangerous.

Please share with us your mother's experiences in the ammunition factory.

Robby

Did she ever tell you any of her personal experiences?

Robby

Sorry about that. It would seem to me that it is impossible to work in such a dangerous situation without having some close calls here and there. Another example of why those of us here should recount our own experiences before they are lost to posterity.

Robby

How are you feeling, Ginger? Have you been to a doctor? Ginny is concerned you are medicating with eucalyptus oil??? Take care! That is a potent flu bug sweeping England right now!

Gladys, isn't it funny the way some things stay with you, long after the danger has passed? How about low-flying planes? Same as sirens, I'll bet!

The Japanese invaded Attu and Kiska islands in the Aleutians in June 1942 and my father's employer, American Can Company, immediately sent him to Dutch Harbor on loan to the military as he had spent 30 years all over coastal Alaska. (I still have his clearance papers for the military.) From then on all mail from Dad was censored. Alaska was considered a "war zone".

We were constantly told never to pick up any strange objects as the Japanese were sending explosives by balloon to western USA. Strict blackout conditions were the order of the day as were food and gas rationing stamp books. Street lights went out and heavy drapes were kept over all windows at night or the block warden would let you know about it. Fort Stevens on the Oregon coast near Astoria, Oregon was shelled by the Japanese so blackout conditions were taken seriously.

My mother was a block warden and I made the weekly stint of checking along with her. Immediately, huge Kaiser shipyards started up in Vancouver, WA on the Columbia River. We went from the condition of the Great Depression to a vast booming economy in a matter of months! Housing was in very short supply as well as everything else.

In my first year of high school there was a job and volunteer fair at school. The Red Cross especially appealed to me so I signed on as an emergency quantity cook and was sent to Saturday classes for training. I was only fourteen at the time but the Red Cross was desperate for volunteer help and overlooked my very young age.(I was told that I was the youngest registered emergency Red Cross cook in the USA and that absolutely certified me to wash mountains of dishes by hand).

I was assigned to the newly built Red Cross center adjacent to the main downtown Portland railroad station. The center had a dance floor, jute box, a bank of telephones, shower facilities, lounge, reading room, canteen and rooms with bunks as well as a restaurant and kitchen. it was all run by the Red Cross and the USO.

There was no air conditioning in the building. I worked full shifts starting at 6:00am on weekends and any other time after school that Red Cross was short of help and that was a lot. When no one showed up for the night shift (work was all volunteer) we day shift workers just kept on working until the restaurant closed at 11:30pm.

I was limited to working in the kitchen as the Red Cross felt that I was far too young to mingle with the mass of military that streamed through the center. I learned to cook hot cakes by the millions on a restaurant size oil-burning stove, make sandwiches and cut pies by the thousands, dip ice cream by the gallons and make coffee continuosly in huge urns. But by the time that I was fifteen, I was working at the counter serving hundreds of GI's streaming in between trains plus serving food to troop trains passing through after fifteen minutes of warning.

The center never did have any dishwashing machine, just two big metal sinks that I got dishwashing duty on. It seemed that I always had the faint odor of disinfectant on me.

We got a phone call on very hot July night; a hospital train was coming through and could we feed 500 in twenty minutes? There was a mad scramble to make sandwitches and round up gallons of ice cream and coffee. The military police escorted two of us through the blacked-out rail yards and then we proceeded to slowly walk through the train to pass out food. I was fifteen years old and it was the first time that I saw the effects of war up close. It was a deep shock to me.

It was absolutely crowded with severely wounded young men and the medical staff that cared for them. I remember so well how hot it was on that train, even with the windows and doors wide open but by the time that we got off I was shaking from what I had just seen. We were never told where the train came from or where it was going as the military did not want any negative publicity. Well, I could go on with more stories about my young Red Cross days during WW2. Enough for now. But in my life, WW2 became a "story without an end".

I didn't know the Japanese shelled Astoria! I was there last summer.
Did you continue with your RED Cross work throughout the war? I can't imagine the impact of that wounded troop train on a 15 year old girl! I'm dying to ask another question, but will wait for the next installment!

Again, Welcome!

Softness he had and hours and nights reserved
For thinking... His laugh was real, his manners homemade.
- Karl Shapiro, "Elegy for a Dead Soldier"

Karl Shapiro, a Pulitzer Prize winning poet of WWII, died this week at 86. You can hear him reading one of his most famous poems here:

Losalbern, there will be an opportunity in the future to share your story. It sounds as if you have quite a bit to say! We're looking forward to hearing from you!

Black American troops began to come through the center and many expressed great surprise at being waited on by white waitresses and that the seating in the restaurant was on a first-come-first-served basis. The Oregon Red Cross was very particular that all military personnel were served with respect.

I was then assigned to a work team at the Portland Port of Embarkation serving food and hot beverages to embarking troops. You were never given but a very short notice because of security and a Red Cross vehicle came to my home and picked me up. The saddest embarkation was of the Nisei troops. I think that I remember one being the 441st division but I was never sure on that. Those American troops were being sent overseas after volunteering for the service, although they did not have to, as they could have lived on with their families in one of the ten notorious Japanese American internment camps. They were all very young men as most of the troops and who on the whole were of slight stature. I saw some of them collapse on the dock under the enormous packs and assorted gear that they had to carry while standing literally for hours waiting in formation to board the ship in the ice cold rain and wind. I especially remember how silent they all were, not even talking to one another.They were being sent to the European theatre while their parents were locked in grim wind-swept prison barracks out in the western desert, being guarded by American solders that did not ever have overseas duty. Their parents had lost all of their property and personal possessions in the evacuation auctions that had been held outside of the first Japanese American holding areas such as the Portland stockyards. When the Nisei came home on leave to visit their families, they had to endure the presence of an army guard being present at all times to guard for what? I had close childhood friends who were taken away to "camp" under guard, why, I could never understand. Their families had come to America just as mine did, to work for a better life. It was so sad because so many of those young Americans of Japanese ancestory never came back alive.

There is more to my Red Cross wartime volunteer work that I will continue later. I was most interested in the story of the code breaking operations that some wrote of. I had heard of that operation in a computer class and saw a most interesting TV program on it.

PS Joan, it was Fort Stevens that was shelled by the Japanese submarine. The Fort is on the beach at the mouth of the Columbia

I didn't realize that the Japanese had actually "shelled" our coasts...I did know there was much hysteria after Pearl Harbor and false rumors that the lower 48 was in danger of attack - which led to fear that the Japanese may have infiltrated the population - and the internment camps. Don't jump on me, I KNOW it was terrible for Japanese-Americans at the time (and especially for those who never did reclaim their property and businesses), but I have long felt the families with children were at least SAFE(R) in the camps away from the hysterical US population at the time! What do you think?

Betty, yes, we were in Astoria last summer, saw the Astoria column...beautiful, breath-taking country! It is no wonder you miss it! Did not visit Fort Stephens though...

Charlie brought us news of Karl Shapiro's passing and an audio of his "Elegy to a Dead Soldier". In case you couldn't hear it, here is an obituary that appeared in today's Washington Post which includes the poem...

"Mr. Shapiro's work first received serious attention in 1941 with the publication of his second book of poems. After being inducted into the Army that same year and assigned to the medical corps, he was stationed in the South Pacific. He turned out most of "V-Letter and Other Poems" during that period, naming the works after the practice of censors microfilming letters home from U.S. soldiers before they were delivered.

The poems re-create the tension between the intensity of wartime experiences and a sense of detachment from events that many soldiers felt while trying to conduct their lives away from the fighting.

Lee, I know how you felt - even if I was in the army I was still in a quandary many times as I was shipped to different places where no one knew me and I couldn't speak the language. Makes you wonder "What am I doing here?"

Robby

Any memories or comments about those wonderful activities where "Britannia ruled the waves?"

Robby

As far as I am concerned the "greatest generation" did not exist solely in the United States. Both the Great Depression and the War touched other nations besides ours.

Robby

Ella, I laughed aloud at your description of the airplane races! And checked WIC (Women in Community Service), with branches all over the country - the national office appears to be on Beauriguard St. in Alexandria, not far, but not Arlington...

I did look up one of the founders, Mary Halloren What a an outstanding woman!!! Thanks for the nudge! We certainly don't want to miss her as we talk about women in the military. I bet this bibliography will prod some memories!!!

I have already recounted in earlier postings of men crying in their beds on their very first night in the military. Men in their sleep calling out for their mothers. And then the Army, in its infinite wisdom, promoting me to be First Sergeant in an Infantry Regiment. The top kick, if you recall, was the "tough" company leader who told the men: "You're not home now! I am your mother and your father! If you have a problem, come to the company Orderly Room and tell me what's bothering you." These were mere boys, mind you, telling me in the privacy of the Orderly Room (while the Captain was blessedly absent) that their wife was pregnant, or that their mother was sick, or that they were scared and wanted a pass to go home or go somewhere else -- "Please, Sergeant, please??!!" And they were telling all this to their surrogate mother and father who was, himself only a mere boy, only 23 years old. And what if the First Sergeant himself is scared? How does he handle that?

As has been quoted earlier -- "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them." What is a hero? Is it someone who is not scared? Or is it someone who is frightened to death, who finds himself in an inescapable situation, and who takes the only action left to him -- that is, move "forward" or die.

Most every motion picture I have ever seen (with the possible exception of Private Ryan) has been full of baloney. Loaded with false Hollywood heroism and a big absence of the feelings of "little boys" who just wanted to go home and curl up on their mommy's lap.

Robby

The United States is made up of immigrants from all over the world. I am wondering if there are any Seniors here who have knowledge of Homefront activities in the "old country" -- members, if you will, of that "great" generation.

Robby

To you who answered the call of your country and served in its Armed Forces to bring about the total defeat of the enemy, I extend the heartfelt thanks of a grateful Nation. As one of the Nation's finest, you undertook the most severe task one can be called upon to perform. Because you demonstrated the fortitude, resourcefulness and calm judgment necessary to carry out that task, we now look to you for leadership and example in further exalting our country in peace.

I have a copy of that letter, too. I put it away years ago along with other mementos that I haven't looked at for decades. I have no idea where they are. After a while they don't mean anything any more. I held a Combat Infantryman Badge. So what? Many men in combat did. I still have my stripes somewhere. They don't mean anything now. I know where my Discharge Papers are because I needed them to buy a house recently. They're all material things which as I have grown older became increasingly unimportant.

Robby

We must WELCOME, RELISH! Your mother taught you more than she ever imagined - and prepared you well for what was (and is) to come! Please come back often! We would love to hear more from you!

Ellen, I understand what you are saying about the internment camps. It was quite a frenzied period in time...I wonder if anyone really intended for what happened in those camps OR if any group of people is to blame or to be held accountable for what actually happened. At least, in hindsight, some attempt at restitution was made. Too bad it took so darn long...

And finally, Ella , with your humorous plane stories (we really do need you here for smiles) - there is NO WICS office in Arlington . The offices are in Alexandria. Either TB made a mistake, or they changed offices (which isn't unusual in this area!) Women in Community Service. I put up the first link because it had a bio of Mary Hallaran...

Night all. It's been quite an emotional roller coaster in here today! Who knows what tomorrow will bring?

What an amazing story!! And so many sub-plots in it -- your meeting a first generation Norwegian-American at a New Years Eve Party -- his particicpation in the fighting on Omaha Beach -- the sadness of his eventual suicide and that of his brother -- the legal ramification of heirlooms in Norway -- the disappearance of your two daughters and your finally locating them -- your oldest daughter dating a member of the Army which originally was our enemy. The type of story which led many years ago to that phrase: "Truth is stranger than fiction."

Are you in regular contact with your daughters? How did it come about that you lost contact with them? Do they know you are participating in this review of Brokaw's book?

Texas:

Thank you for sharing that exchange between John Glenn and Howard Metzenbaum. How odd that Metzenbaum would even ask such a question!!!

Robby

Always good to hear your experiences!! Aside from the "putdowns," tell us of some of your other experiences in Mess. And then, even if you were younger at the time, you just have to tell us why you and your mother went to Switzerland. What happened there?

Robby

You "relived a lot of horrible times through this discussion but have come to see another way to view the individuals." What a powerful statement, Faith, and not an easy one to make as you share your deepest emotions with us. As each of us share our memories and emotions with each other, it is almost impossible that we not all change in one way or another. Thank you for your constant participation in this forum and we are looking forward to your continued sharing.

Robby

As you said: "If you had never experienced those times, how can you relate to them?" I agree 100% and have ocasionally tried to explain that to folks of a younger age with some degree of success. But we can, at least, share with them and hope that some of the emotions rub off.

As you put it: "So much has happened since then." Every now and then as I watch the blast off of the "Challenger" or board a commercial plane, or remember the landing on the Moon, or send an instantaneous e-mail and then look back at my childhood where there were more horses and wagons on my road than autos, or remember my studying until the sixth grade by kerosene lamp, or see photos of me in knickers, I can hardly believe I am the same person now that I was then. But, on second thought, I guess I am not.

I'm so sorry to hear about your first husband. There is another way in which we have changed. We understand so much more about the disease of alcoholism now that we didn't know then.

Your daughter and family live on the beautiful Rhine River. My memory of that river is crossing it on a temporary bridge erected by the Combat Engineers. We had no time to enjoy the scenery.

Ellen, would you and/or your daughter be interested in sharing any of their thoughts regarding the generation of her father-in-law and mother-in-law which, after all, is the same generation as the one we are now discussing? Either army stories of her father-in-law or homefront stories from her mother-in-law -- if they are comfortable sharing them. Germany, also, suffered from the Great Depression and they had terrible times prior to the war.

Thank you, again, for all that wonderful sharing!!

Robby

Hendie: How interesting (your post #276) that learning to speak French cures one of bronchial problems.

Robby

There have been many references to V-Mail...(Victory Mail?) What exactly was it - censored mail from the front? Who "cut the holes"? Was this a military operation?

Meanwhile, back on the homefront....Do you recall those newsreels - footage from the front - in the movie theatres? What were YOU and your families doing at home as the war raged?

ps. Robby, I think French gets the "frog" out of one's throat!

V-Mail was little one page letter paper printed on very thin paper
with a flap and glue on it to seal it up, making an envelope. It was
made to save weight for Air-mail, especially to mail to our GI's.
They were available at the Post Office.  It was cheaper than regular
postage, and encouraged people to write often. The postage was
printed right on the V-Mail sheet and became the outside of the V-Mail to write the address.
The Address was usually an APO # for the overseas GI's.  This
was to assure secrecy as to where the GI was located. Mostly we
knew, by other means. I must have written thousands!

I feel so "old" when people say they never heard of V-mail.

Robby

Robby

What I was not prepared for was our customers telling me they forgot their "red" stamp and would bring it in tomorrow. Of course tomorrow never came and the owner would get up set with me. Butter became so scarce, as did toilet paper and soap. If a good customer asked for it we had it -- someone we did not know, I was told to say " No, we didn't have any." It was embarrassing as the lady knew you had just got some for the previous customer.

My father was a local school teacher and people were always offering him gas rationing stamps. He would turn them down, saying "It isn't right." He was very disgusted with people who lied to get extra gas coupons and then sold them to others.

When I was 12 I got a baby sitting job by going from house to house until I found one of those families of former servicemen who had a baby. I found an adorable 9 month old baby boomer. Thinking back and comparing it to now - would you let a 12 year old stranger take care of your baby? But then, today girls that young are having their own.

Robby

Ellen mentions that she still has a photo taken by the military of her in "the" dayroom at her school. If any of you have photos that you would be willing to share with everyone please let us know. Check out the beginnings of our photo gallery at http://www.seniornet.org/gallery/joanp/greatest/honored.html or click on the link to the GREATEST GENERATION in the heading of this discussion. Read the instructions there about how to get photos to us.

Note: I edited this post to direct the photos to Joan Grimes who is maintaining the "photo gallery" for this discussion.

Robby

Thanks for the post on VMail, Hootie!

Thought you might be amused at this article from today's Washinton Post on us -

"There are so many of us, there is no good word to describe us all," says Theodore Roszak, author of "America the Wise" (Houghton Mifflin).


We span more than 50 years and four generations: the oldest boomers (born 1946-64), the Silent Generation (1930-45), the World War II Generation (1915-30) and the Depression Generation, celebrated today as centenarians.

I wasn't that "friendly" in the Army. I believe I shared in an earlier posting that I grew up without swearing being part of my vocabulary. It wasn't that we were prudish or anything -- just that neither side of my family felt the need to use such words in order to communicate. So even the words "damn" or "hell" were not part of my vocabulary, much less the four-letter obscenities.

THEN CAME THE ARMY !! The first change was that I drank more coffee the first month of service that I had in my entire previous life. After that came my promotion and my wearing "three up and three down with a diamond in the middle" and I rapidly learned to use every vulgarism I could think of and do it in a stentorian voice. That was the language that was respected and that was the language I used for over three years.

Then came discharge and within 24 hours that language dropped from my vocabulary and I spoke to my family and friends as I always had prior to the war. To this day I rarely use a "hell" or "damn" and I don't drink coffee any more either!

So I repeat -- you only know the civilian Robby -- you don't know the S.O.B. "top kick" who lurks within. I'll bet I could still run a company through a quick close-order drill if I had to. You never lose that stuff. HUP - TWO - THREE - FOUR!! TO THE REAR MARCH !! BY THE RIGHT FLANK --- Oops, sorry! I lost control for a moment.

Robby

Robby

As you say, cigarettes were part of the rations but I used them for money. Girls were more important to me than nicotine. Each to his own addiction.

Robby

Robby

Katie - 'carte blanche' from Paul! That's great! Interesting reading! His name has been entered into Seniornet's Greatest - and Gladys, do send your picture! The gallery is definitely not for men only! But check out the photos of the guys we have received so far! Is that last one...James Dean??? We look forward to more of your photos!

Love,
Joan

I remember giving candy, "choon" gum, etc. to the children in France but I must say that I also gave goodies to the children of Germany as well. A child is a child.

Robby

There's a very profound lesson in your comment -- people from ALL countries, Allied and the "enemy" who "befriended us." I would like to see some further comments from others here on that subject. Ane please remember, folks, Patrick and I (and others here) are not "do-gooders" who are against war solely for philosophical reasons but people who were in the thick of fighting and know what it is to be in contact with those who wanted to kill us and yet who found humanaity amidst those terrors.

Robby

I think you are the first person here who brought up the subject of Sad Sack. I don't remember his having been mentioned before. There may be many people here who don't know who he was and as you mentioned him, I will defer to you to describe who and what he was. His antics and what he represented are a whole subject in itself.

Robby

Our VFW Post 4025 in Niles, Mich. has just got a new Commander, Her name is Sylvia Roberts who is still in the Military, she served in the Gulf conflict so are post is growing. All Vietnam and Korea veterans are WELCOME. (Things are Changing) I was asked, I think by Joan Pearson many moons ago in The Good War discussion if the new Veterans would take there place in our VFW and AMERICAN LEGION ORGINAZTIONS as we pass our Country on to them and I belive that they will. I belive in God and Country stll, and remember the song (coming in on a wing and a prayer. The door bell just rang so will talk later.

Robby

                  ^                           

                                  (      ) 
                                 [        ] 
               ____________M_______O/  \O_________M___________ 
                                   /    \                  
                                    \  /                           
                                     -    
                                   WHAT ?

If you were born in 1929, you are definitely of that "Greatest Generation." Joan will see to it that your name goes up there.

Not bad, Hendie, not bad!!

Robby

Many of the older men were in the National Guard and waiting to be called up. A good friend of mine was Egbert White, a middle-aged Account Executive, who knew of my photo background and who would often chat with me. He was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve and had been assigned the responsibility of creating a brand new periodical for those in the Service which would be called Yank Magazine. This would be sort of a "Life" Magazzine for those in uniform.

After one of our lengthy chats we came to the conclusion that I would not wait to be drafted but would enlist in the Army, would go through basic training, upon which he would have orders cut to have me transferred to his unit in the Signal Corps. My assignment with the Signal Corps would be to take photos across Europe for publication in Yank Magazine.

I enlisted in the Army and in September, 1942, after a summer of basic training, I was notified that I would be part of a cadre to help form a new division. I was told that I had done a superior job and was most capable in command and administration and was promoted immediately to First Sergeant from Corporal and was ordered to report to Fort Jackson to be in command of approximately 200 enlisted men in a Regimental Headquarters Company.

What happened to my plan of being a photographer for Yank Magazine? How do I know? How can I explain what goes on in the mind of a young man?

Ella:

GI is "Government Issue." All the clothes and equipment given us was labeled Government Issue and somewhere along the line we all decided that we were nothing more than that ourselves.

Robby

The Mauldin characters that you think look like Sad Sack were probably Willie and Joe, the two central characters in Stars & Stripes. I think Sad Sack was only in Yank. Sad Sack represented the poor disoriented GI who was constantly thrown around by the military bureaucracy and never quite knew what hit him. Willie & Joe were representative of the "average" GI and in demonstrating their experiences, Mauldin constantly took subtle, and sometimes not too subtle, swipes at the bureaucracy. He was disliked, and even hated, by many of the top brass because he illustrated the truth as he saw it and, in the process, touched nerves.

Robby

I was the one who didn't follow through. It's pretty heady stuff for a 22-year old to be a "Top Kick." The girls always enjoyed going out with someone whose arm showed three up and three down and a diamond in the middle.

Robby

Robby

What topics we get into here in describing a "great" generation!! "To the Rear Harch!! (notice it is Harch, not March - just as it is Hup - Two, not One - Two), it automatically includes a turn. One pivots very rapidly on the right foot and continues marching. And don't think there wasn't more than one Yardbird that tripped himself up. A real mean Top Kick (not me, you understand!) would give three "to the rear marches" together in a row.

Apparently there were many extraordinary things that made us great!!

Robby

Behind their backs (and occasionally to their faces) we called the officers gentlemen "by act of Congress." Those Army officers who were not West Point graduates but had received their commissions from crash courses at Ft. Benning were labeled "30-day wonders." While we received much of our basic training from RA's (Regular Army), we nevertheless looked down on them because we did not consider the peace-time soldier equal to those of us in the business world.

And as we laughed our way around the world, we not only laughed at ourselves but at the enemy as well. There were occasions when some of our soldiers who were behind the German lines left Kilroy signatures driving the Jerries nuts. In the Battle of the Bulge, General McAuliffe's answer "nuts" (rather than a formal answer) to the German unit's request for surrender had them completely baffled. Even some of our own allies were baffled by our informality. The French, Belgian, and Dutch could never get over our organizing sand lot ball games where the catcher who was a private would razz the batter who was a 1st lieutenant -- and the "looie" took it!

We were truly what General Eisenhower labeled us -- "citizen soldiers" -- and humor and informality is what helped us to hold onto our sanity during one of the world's worst conflagrations.

Robby

I'd also be interested in each of us asking a young person...a young teen, what he/she thinks Memorial Day is about and then how he/she observes it, if at all...and if the response is vague, to take the opportunity to briefly explain it, using the specific name of a relative or friend who died for his/her country. I think it would be an excellent opportunity to keep the candle burning!

And the candle...I'll get that up right now!

KKKatie,I think I've got all your "C's" and "K's" straightened out! Will you check them?

Gladys, I've located your photo, but since that gallery is Joan Grimes' department, I hesitate to touch it. She is out of town, but I have mailed her and as soon as she sees it, I'm sure it will be re-instated...

Bill Mauldin was the cartoonist Studs Terkel"Good" War and we learned he is living in Arizona today...let me search that discussion for more on Willie and Joe...

ps Betty, did you play the tuba!!! Or did I misunderstand!!! I love it!

Bill Mauldin's just been nominated to the top ten list of best editorial cartoonists of the century. Here's the write-up about him and a site of some of the Willy & Joe cartoons...

(6) Bill Mauldin (1921- ) acquired his fame as an anti-authoritarian critic in the most autocratic of societies, the U.S. Army during World War II. Mauldin’s spokesmen — the scruffy, bristle-chinned, stoop-shouldered Willie and Joe in their wrinkled and torn uniforms — were taciturn but eloquent witnesses on behalf of the persecuted. Their popularity was an affront to generally accepted notions of military propriety, but Mauldin never wavered, even after General George S. Patton leaned on him. “I knew these guys best,” Mauldin said, “and [the cartoons] gave the typical soldier an outlet for his frustrations, a chance to blow off steam.”

Returning to civilian life a celebrity with the first of his two Pulitzers (1945) under his arm, Mauldin continued the same satirical approach, but cartoons that were critical of postwar America were seen as “political” rather than “entertaining,” and newspapers began dropping his feature. Then in 1958, he replaced Fitzpatrick at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and Mauldin’s liberal perspective had a home again. “I’m against oppression,” he said, “by whomever.” Later, after he’d joined the Chicago Sun-Times, Mauldin drew one of his most famous cartoons: the statue of Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial, head in hands, grieving at the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

Robby

Good to see you with us. We are looking forward to further postings from you.

Just shows you the power of a Commanding General, doesn't it? It also shows the power of the American GI who looks at facts regardless of what the higher brass say. Just another incident to indicate what made that generation "great."

Robby

I will be silent in this forum for three days as I take a much needed and earned mini-vacation with my cousin, Diane, near Sarasota, Florida. I love you all but I will purposely stay away from the Senior Net. However, it will be very difficult not to think of the many memories that have been shared here.

Robby

Gingee

Hendie my friend Thank you so much for your post will my crying cease being touched by the posts here. Thank You so much. Love Ginger and or Gingee as Gladys and I kinda joke about.

A reminder that we will be observing Memorial Day in this discussion, remembering individuals who never made it back from this war or Korea or VietNam - or any war. If you are taking some days off, as is our Robby, you may leave the names of fallen soldiers and some particulars (war, service branch, dates) in a post and they will be honored here.

Thanks, all!

ps. Hendie, Gladys, Marguerite, is Memorial Day recognized in England, in Canada, France at this time? Please feel free to include your names here no matter what! We wish to remember them ALL!

As Robby points out, this is not just a free day to bar-b-q or shop...but how many of today's kids know what it is really all about. Will you make a point of asking a young person why there is no school on Monday and post the response here? Wouldn't it be fine if they were aware of the significance of the day? Be sure to leave them with something they didn't know! Start the dialog at every opportunity! Not a long lecture - just one specific glimpse into war and loss!

Will put up the heading later this evening. See you then. (I feel like Dan Rather saying that - opps, I mean Tom Brokaw!!!)

Harold Okinpaul

Jerry Roberts

In the Greatest Generation, Leo Doyle remembers World War I veterans coming to his school auditorium to tell of some of the things they went through, but his grandchildren didn't know what it meant. I asked 8 kids who were visiting the Folger what Memorial Day was about...will share their responses with you on tomorrow.

ske!, you are very WELCOME here! We have added your name to the SN'S GREATEST! We look forward to hearing from you again!

Of course Donald belongs on this list, Ellen! He certainly died from his war injury! And Norm, can you supply some details on Harold O. and Jerry R - such as branch of service, or where they died?

Hendie, I wonder how we ever arrived at the date of May 30 to observe as Memorial Day? Will have to research that! (I know how we arrived at the Monday observance!) We'll have to talk about this tomorrow, but know also that we intend to remember all of our loved ones and friends who lost their lives in military service - no matter where!

Then as I got a little older it became a "holiday" and time off from work. Even after returning from the service I looked forward to it as a holiday and to play with the kids for an extra day.

Now that I have arrived at the "Golden Years" it has returned to the same thoughts I was taught in elementary school. I think of the friends and comrades who did not return from the wars. Just last night sitting on my neighbors porch I made the comment I didn't like Tom Brokaw's news program that much, but after reading his books I have a closeness to Tom that wasn't there before. My neighbor commented how Tom Brokaw has done a real service to all of us that served in WW2 and the wars following. I agree. Mr. Brokaw says it isn't his story, he is only telling us what he has heard. However Mr. Brokaw has done a great job of assembling these stories and putting them in their proper perspective. I thank him for that.

I wanted to mention that in our town of Gahanna, the local band director took the high-school marching band around to all of the cemeteries on Memorial Day for services. This was back in the 60's and 70's and early 80's. I am unaware if the practice is ongoing. He was a special person when it came to honoring all for their sacrifices. We moved from here in 1983 and returned in 1998 and he is retired now. And, we did call it Decoration Day.

When my husband died three years ago, I was presented with n American flag at Fort Snelling, where he is buried. I donated the flag to our building, where it has fluttered proudly through the seasons on the flagpole just outside the entrance.

Last year, because that flag had begun to tatter and become faded, our resident veterans offered to replace it, and a modest flag-raising ceremony was planned for Memorial Day. Everyone was invited to attend, including the new group of elderly Russian emigres, new citizens or about-to-be citizens.

The ceremony was solemn, and the new flag was raised by a uniformed group of veterans from the American Legion. It was about then that the entrance door came open, and a huge contingent of Russian emigres filed out. Bedecked, both men and women, with all their medals from WWII, they stood in a group, perhaps 50 or 60 of them, and, led by a former musical director from the Ukraine, proceeded to sing.

These people could barely speak English, some not at all, but they knew every word of “God Bless America.” It was so rousing, and so heartfelt, that everyone joined in, and we all demanded an encore.


Never have I witnessed, or been part of, a patriotic ceremony that stirred me as much. I will never forget.


lORRIE

His mother replaced the silver star in her window with a gold star

Bill H

"I think my father kept his silence for the same reason most men who had seen combat in World War II -- or any war -- kept silent. Because the totality of it was simply too painful for words."

I asked a group of young people who came into the Folger Museum for a tour - I work there - what Memorial Day was all about. They were between 12 and 15. A few came up with..."about soldiers who fought in wars", one girl thought it was about Viet Nam, one said she didn't know at all, most said it was a day off from school. I asked them what they actually did to observe Memorial Day - this is in DC, the Nation's capitol, where Memorial Day is observed in a big way...but these kids did nothing. No parades, no visit to Arlington Cemetary... They did pay a whole lot of attention to one thing though. When I told them that tomorrow at 3pm, all radio and TV stations were going to suspend programming for a full minute and play "Taps" in memory of all those who died in wars, they perked up! This is where they live! This is relevent! Radio! TV! This must be important. I told them it was and they promised they would talk to their parents and grandparents about relatives and family friends who served in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam...

I think we have to become aware of the power of our numbers and our voices and make sure we do all we can to make sure the memory of those who made the supreme sacrifice for our freedoms lives on...

I hope you all will continue to share memories of your loved ones who died in service all day tomorrow! We wish to honor them the only way we know how...by keeping their memories alive. A separate list can be created for other wars...Korea, Vietnam...

Thanks, Evamarie, for the article about the flag raising. And Betty Gregory, about the little 4-yr old and his pointed questions. Four year olds are something else and more intuitive than we know. Also, little sponges for information.

The Capitol is an emotional place to be this weekend. Rolling Thunder captures everyone's attention as literally thousands of motorcylces roar into town announcing the Viet Vets arrival. They have been all over Arlington and DC all weekend. They bring back into consciousness those terrible years and tears. So many tears. I cannot imagine how you parents of Viet Nam servicemen and women lived through that, knowing what you do about war!

I was looking for the schedule of events in Arlington Cemetery this morning and came across Ann Lander's column which contained a letter from the son of a WWII Vet. He makes important points, so I'll include it here in case you haven't read it:

"If your parents or grandparents are veterans, please take this opportunity to encourage them to talk about their experiences, even if you have heard their stories before. Listen as if you are hearing them for the first time. Let them know how much you appreciate their sacrifices. You may not get another chance to express your gratitude, and will deeply regret the lost opportunity."

This soldier's prayer, written by an unknown author, is dedicated to our comrades who paid the supreme sacrifice and is a bond between us who served with them, and an inspiration to all who follow in their footsteps.

He was a very agressive flight leader, real adept at finding targets. As our operations officr put it, "He made the mission really count." Wright drew a lot of enemy fire and returned to base on many occasions with a badly damaged aircraft. "Great guy to fly wing on," we wingmen joked, "He absorbs all the enemy fire!"

It was Captain Edwin Wright at war's end, but he was still ineligible to vote or buy an alcoholic drink in the U.S. He had completed eighty-eight combat missions during which he not only earned the respect of his leaders and wingmen but was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal with thirteen Oak Leaf Clusters. As with most "amateur warriors," Captain Wright returned home, doffed his uniform, and melted into the civilian landscape. When 506th Fighter Squadron veterans reunited in recent years all attempts to locate Ed Wright failed. To his wartime wingmates he remains forever the very young, very fearless, and very, very lucky fighter pilot.

When returning from a bomber escort mission, it was their duty to seek out and destroy additional enemy targets. On one of these missions a coral of Clydesdale horses was on the list of additional enemy targets. The Germans, being short on fuel, used the Clydesdale to pull or drag into place the heavy artillery weapons they were using to shell our installations. When the coral of horses was located, the pilots peeled their planes off, each taking his turn at machine-gunning these poor dumb innocent beasts until all of them were killed

Ray told me that tears were streaming down his cheeks as he carried out the strafing destruction of the Clydesdale. He said the only thing that had given him solace was the certain possibility that by killing the Clydesdals they were saving the lives of many Allied troops.

Bill H

If any of you know or have read any other versions of "taps" let us know. I would like to read them

Bill H

"Fading light dims the sight,
And a star gems the sky, gleaming bright.
From afar drawing nigh -- Falls the night.

"Day is done, gone the sun,
From the lake, from the hills, from the sky.
All is well, safely rest, God is nigh.

"Then good night, peaceful night,
Till the light of the dawn shineth bright,
God is near, do not fear -- Friend, good night."

Sometimes one can say too much. There are times when words do not tell the story.

Robby

One of the ways the observance of Memorial Day has changed is the switch to the Monday "holiday" To me, Memorial Day, Decoration day, will always be the 30th and when it became attached to the three day weekend, it lost a lot of its significance For many, it turned into a third day at the beach. Living a half mile from Arlington National Cemetery, I live Memorial Day! The sound of the gun salutes reverberates throughout the house during much of the day. The roar of the VietNam Vets motorcycles, "Rolling Thunder", is heard everywhere...thousands of them come into town through Arlington on their way to the wall, the parade...and uniforms are everywhere. I spoke to as many as I could...several from the Korean War.

I miss the small town observance I grew up with...the parades with familiar faces waving to me as I waved to them. May 30 is my birthday. My father used to set me on our fence and I thought for several years the passing parade was to honor me as I waved in appreciation - until my father explained it all to me. (I wasn't four either, Betty!) I found this interesting:

The kids in Alexandria, VA had school yesterday. They had used an extra snow day this winter and had to make it up. Since many simply did not show up (parents had made beach plans - of course it rained all weekend, but we won't talk about that), the teachers used the day to discuss the significance of Memorial Day - many had well-prepared presentations...some had invited veterans to talk to the kids. Of course, there was media attention, reporters waiting to hear the poor kids complain about missing the "holiday". But you should have heard them! They were overcome by what they had heard - "stuff" never heard before ...and there were NO complaints about having been in school! They were much impressed by the national moment of silence and the lone bugler playing "Taps".

I was included in all this because I was able to play the trumpet and marched with the High School band. I became a member of the Sons of the Legion and, as such, was often requested to play Taps at funeral services. I also remember the pastor of a local church asking me one Memorial Day Sunday to hide up in the balcony and play Taps at the appropriate time. Memorial Day stands out in my mind.

Robby

Your comment about the defaced Kaiser Wilhelm Church is, in a way, a reminder to all of us that the only true memorial is in the mind. Edifices can be defaced but not pure memories. The "less than perfect" bugler can struggle through the high notes of Taps but we don't mind because we feel deeply what it represents. The Memorial Day speaker can go on and on in a boring way but he/she cannot ruin the bitter-sweet pictures in our minds. For those of us who still stand with our hands over our hearts as the Flag goes by, it matters not if the Junior Band is out of tune. Nothing can destroy the Truth as we remember and cherish it. Memories are Forever.

Robby

I had learned by that time that to put a flag at half-mast, it was necessary to raise the flag to the top and then lower it to half mast. On that Memorial Day, shortly after sunrise I briskly raised the flag to the top and then slowly lowered it to half mast. With my family, I walked to the village and watched the parade. Upon returning home at about noon, I briskly raised the flag to the top and left it there until sundown at which time I folded it properly (imagine folding a 6" x 10" flag into a cocked hat shape)and put it away in a nice place.

Patriotism and respect is learned at an early age.

Robby

Bill H

I knew most of these calls from my Scouting experience and learned the others later. Because of my special duty I had special privileges eg extra passes and escaping KP.

Robby

Robby

Just a few more plants to water, the fridge to clear, the dog to walk and we are ready to take off for the West Coast for a week in San Diego with sons #2 and #4. I want to thank you all for the birthday greetings! You made my May 30 birthday memorable!

Later!

"Growing up, it seemed to me that everyone else came from nice, perfect families made up of a mother, father and children. But, for my mother and me, our family was just the two of us. On the subject of my father's death, there was for the most part silence. For me, this silence led to feelings of great shame. Shame that I did not have a father, shame that he had been killed when everyone else came home, shame that we'd been left behind, shame that we were 'different.'"

Does anyone here of any generation relate to this? Were you left a war widow? Were (are) you a war orphan? What were and are the feelings attached to that?

Robby

What you did with the younger members of your family is exactly what it is hoped many of us are doing or will do. (Please re-read the quote by Brokaw just below the title in this forum.) Does it sometimes amaze you (and others here) that our grandchildren (who, after all, are adults in many cases) do not truly understand the meaning of MEMORIAL day? Do they ever pause to examine the meaning of the day's name?

Robby

In 1998, a military team identified two of the 50-caliber guns listed on his plane. Patricia says: "I'm the first family member ever to have escorted the repatriated remains of an Army serviceman. As the plane left Honolulu, a lifetime of tears burst forth. This was it. My father was no longer lost and alone in those mountains. He was with me and I was taking him home."

Perhaps there are others here who know of similar experiences. Sharing will help.

Robby

These discussions are making a difference within us individually, aren't they? We can't possibly continue to examine the meaning of World War II and all wars without looking at Memorial Day in an entirely different fashion.

Is there anyone else here who, like Maryal, Gladys, and others is beginning to share more about this topic with family members and friends?

Robby

Thank you for sharing that with us. Very emotional !! Do you, and others here, believe that Memorial Day was a bit more significant across the nation this year?

Robby

Sounds to me as if Memorial Day plus discussion of the postings here brought you and your sons even closer together. I also found it interesting that many of the people cleaning and planting things in the cemetery were around your age. Do you and others here believe that the meaning of this holiday will gradually disappear as those of our age die off?

Robby

How wonderful that you shared your personal experience with your students which, as you indicate, was not only helpful to you but to them. A beautiful example of linking the two wars in a positive way. You describe that as a "small thing" but I would guess that some,if not all, your students would describe that as a turning point in their lives. War does not always have a happy result but (to use a common trite phrase) you changed lemon into lemonade. Blessings on you!!

Robby

Robby

One time after his death she had a vivid dream where she saw him ahead at a County Fair but "as seems to be the way with dreams, just as I was getting close enough to reach out to him, I awoke from the dream." Forty years later, on two separate occasions, she was typing a memo and without thinking typed the date -- December 18, 1944 -- the date on which her brother was killed in battle.

Does anyone here have similar events to share regarding dreams or "odd" events regarding the deaths of Servicemen in their families?

Robby

"We had one son and he is a pilot just like his father. Genes are so powerful. His father saw him just one time and then went overseas. He was killed when the child was six months old. My son is a pilot just like he was, and he loves fast cars just like he did, and he even has the same exact signature."

Does this story ring a bell? Any family members who were very much like their father who was killed in action? Are genes "powerful?"

Robby

Is this perhaps the best attitude to take? Are we concentrating too much on the past or should we heed that Ancient Greek who told us: "Those who ignore the past are doomed to live it again."

Robby

Are we doing that? If so, how are we doing it?

Robby

Whatever the truth may be, we here in Senior Net and in this particular forum are, perhaps without our consciously realizing it, taking part in a gigantic project. We are, to use Faith's words, teaching history by merely relating our own memories and experiences. We are (using Ellen's analogy) the Old Ones sitting around the campfire under the stars and passing on the "facts" of life to the younger generation.

We seniors are more powerful than we sometimes give ourselves credit for being. Thanks to all of you for using this power in a constructive way and please continue to do so.

Robby

We here in this forum are scattered all over thousands of miles, are conversing almost instantaneously, and are sharing thoughts and memories about a Memorial "holiday" which brings us together. What is that certain "glue" which holds us together?

Robby

We have been speaking of occurrences that happened at the time of World War II. In what way is your life today affected by those occurrences?

Robby

Yes, it's "time to leave the guilt behind." As you say, it is "the roll of the dice." I was close enough to be hit but was not hit. I was under the incoming shells but received no shrapnel wounds. I read the stories here and can emphathize and feel so badly but am simultaneously so relieved that I am still alive. Those who were not part of a "world" war do not realize the many slots we could have been put into -- one could end up being in China, Indonesia, Belgium, Burma, Germany, Italy, India, Iceland,Holland, Alaska, Algeria, Thailand,France, Morocco, Egypt, Azores, etc. etc. etc. or in anyone of the states -- also one could end up being a rifleman, a chauffeur, a tail gunner, a musician, a cannoneer, a mechanic, a parachuter, a cook, a glider pilot, a clerk, a meteorologist, a navigator, in anti-aircraft, in intelligence, in communication, and on and on and on.

How does one define "great?" Who was the "greatest" - the infantryman crossing the bridge over the Rhine or the combat engineer who constructed the bridge first? The pilot who guided the bomber to the proper place or the tail gunner who kept away the enemy attack planes? Yes, Hugh, it is the luck of the draw. Some of us are here now and some of us never returned. If nothing else, war taught us GIs to be fatalist. We all heard the expression about that particular bullet or shell that "had our name on it." Que sera sera.

Robby

I realize that toward the end of the war they were using the very young and the very old to fill the ranks. There were so many divisions on each front. Their divisional numbers were not as high as our own, but still it took a great number of men.

Faith: Thanks for those "after-war" memories -- practicing getting under school desks if there was danger of an atomic bomb falling or planning to meet at a specific airport. Other more "practical" people realized the true power of the bomb. There was much fear right after World War II, wasn't there? -- the Soviets using their bomb, spies in our midst, etc. And, as you say, the war made people more serious -- spending less time on partying and more time on community service. Would most people here agree that the United States grew up rapidly both during and after the war?

Robby

Maybe I'm over-reading this but what I am inferring is a tremendous interest on the part of the populace (at least in that area) in the WWII era and a desire to get signatures of WWII veterans (heroes) before they all died off. Am I understanding this correctly? If so, there is a seed there that could expand nationally. Is there a ground swell in that direction? I am also wondering about the general age of the people who are buying the books and getting the autographs of the veterans.

Robby

Yes, World War I was known as the "Great War" and was defined at that time by President Woodrow Wilson and others as "the war to end all wars." They were very naive in those days. The question -- are we naive now?

Robby

Oh - the ironies of life!!

Robby

”None of these boats survived so that an original could be placed in the museum. So Mr. Stephen Ambrose, whose idea it was to create this museum, had a Higgins boat built in exact detail and size to the very bolts and nuts. Quite a few of the men who built this boat were found and were put to work building the replica. They said the work came easy to them because they worked on and built so many of the originals”

Phyllis Zauner went on to say that on the grand opening--June 6, 2000--scheduled dignitaries include Viscount Montgomery, Louisiana Gov. Mike Foster, Defense Secretary William Cohen is tentatively slated to speak. Tom Brokaw will act as master of ceremonies. Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks plan to attend. France will send a frigate and national news networks will cover the event live.

The museum is 70,000 square-foot and was built at a cost of $25-million.

Bill H

Robby

All of us veterans have memories within ourselves and we rarely talk about them but it seems that when we meet with others who have similar memories -- for example, on Senior Net, or when you bring up the subject as you did -- then the memories start to flow. This is why, in my opinion, this forum is so good. It starts the memory juices flowing.

I do not agree with those who say this is negative. Yes, I live for today and for the future but I do not ignore the fact that the past happened. Sometimes talking about the past is therapeutic. Thanks to all of you are regularly sharing your past with us.

Robby

Robby

What person born between 1915 and 1930 or shortly thereafter was not touched in one way or another by that gigantic event?

Last year I put a few flags in my front yard in memeorium of those that lost ther lives that day storming the beaches. A man in his forties passed by and asked me why the flags. Even seeing the flags didn't make him think of what day it was. But, of course, he wasn't even born when the invasion of "Fortress Europe" took place.

Bill H

By the way, Songbird, if you go to this site you will notice that the D-Day Memorial Museum is in New Orleans and they have a site for you to click on where they explain the reason for its being there. I still don't understand why the memorial is in New Bedford,VA and the museum is in New Orleans, do you? See ya!

Robby

Robby

Robby

There were many other D-Days in WWII but this was the one that stood out.

Robby

When operations were being planned, the "inner sanctum" people would agree among themselves a particular codeword for the operation. It could be anything they chose. It could be "Ella." Obviously they bandied around various words or phrases which they felt would be meaningful. As you say, "overlord" means lord of lords. It is my understanding that in feudal times, the Overlord (as opposed to the other Lords) received his title from God himself. Whether this had any effect on those who determined the name, I have no idea nor do I know what person or group designated the name. Naturally it had to originate somewhere but I have no idea of its source. Maybe before we finish talking about D-Day someone will come up with the answer.

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

You are right. You should not be seeing "Private Ryan." You have gone through enough of a traumatic experience as you have been describing it without doing something to hurt yourself even more.

Robby

Thank you for joining us. In 1964, I visited Omaha Beach and had an experience similar to yours. Children were playing hide and go seek in the pillboxes where the Germans had been firing on the Allied Forces. Mixing that with thoughts of the invasion boggles the mind.

You had said, Mit, that you would ultimately come visit us in this Discussion Group and I'm so pleased you did so. Please continue sharing your thoughts and memories with us.

Robby

When American troops first landed in North Africa on November 8,1942, only a few leaders, civil and military, actually knew how many bitter months yet remained before the actual second front was finally to open in Normandy on June 6, 1944.

This extra time would allow over 100 American Divisions to train in England for the invasion across the English channel, and the fighting in Europe, and time to develop new fighting weapons and methods. In 1942 we were limited in offensive and tactical weapons. There were no LSTs, LCIs, "ducks" or special amphibious craft and equipment. These were still on the drawing boards or factory production lines. "Higgins Boats" ferried the assault troops to the African shore, and 75mm pack howitzers were broken down and carried on the backs of the doughboys.

At that time, little did we know that there yet remained much of our own "blood, sweat, tears, and toil" for our fighting troops serving under General George Patton in the Mediterranean theater and in future battles in France, Germany and Austria.

  History now reveals the many mistakes our own technicians and the allied army and navy planners made in this, our first amphibious battle action, and why the word snafu became common place. The naval coxswains steering the Higgins Boats were not experienced and were unfamiliar with the pre-designated landing places, and as a result our landing crafts smashed full speed into corral reefs, causing the waves to wash over our heads, doubling the weight of our 60-pound packs with water and causing many of our soldiers to drown. Many small boats were broached and overturned in the heavy surf, with the result that personnel were battered and bleeding from the cuts they received from the spike sharp coral reef while getting ashore. The beach was covered by enemy searchlights, enemy artillery and machine gun fire, and the assault platoons were forced to move out of the field of fire quickly, and attacked toward Fedala from where the heaviest enemy fire was originating. We were in the target area and immediately shelled by friendly naval fire, and suffered more casualties due to poor ship to shore communications.

The final overcoming of all these difficulties by the combat troops, and their ability to attain their final objectives and victory despite the many casualties, some of them caused by our own mistakes, was prophetic of our future in all of our battles in WW2, in Africa, Sicily, Italy, Anzio, France, Alsace. Germany and Austria. The mistakes would be reviewed by army and naval planners in preparations for future landings in Sicily, Italy and France.

Earlier, when we left the United States, in an effort to confuse the enemy concerning our final destination, and to minimize the danger from U-boats, our troop transports took 2 weeks to zig-zag across the Atlantic from Norfolk, Virginia, in preparation for the invasion, and our first battle.

During the long crossing we had many conversations with the Catholic Chaplain, 1st Lieutenant Clement Falter, who continually encouraged and assured us that we would be victorious in this, our first battle, and said, " Friends are God's way of taking care of us. I'll lean on you and you lean on me and we will all be O.K."

Fifty eight years later I remember well Chaplain Falter and all my other buddies in our first battle action.We all took different paths in life, but no matter where we went we took a little of each other everywhere. 1st. Lieutenant Clement Falter died on the beach at Fedala. He was the first chaplain to be killed in WW2.

Thank you for reminding us that there were other beach invasions besides the one at Normandy, eg the invasion of North Africa near Casablanca.

Robby

I agree with Songbird about dividing up your posting into small paragraphs. You are sharing such interesting stuff that we don't want to miss any.

Robb

Can anyone here visualize such utter fatigue?

Robby

I enjoy this discusson so much but say so little, Just know that I have not missed a post.

gladys, Hendie and all, Thank You.

Ginger

Don't worry at all about your spelling. It is your thoughts that interest us.

I don't know about the amphetamines. Back in those days we didn't have much knowledge about amphetamines and other kinds of drugs. Of course, coffee is in the family of amphetamines and I remember sharing in an earlier posting that I drank more coffee in my first month in the Army than I had drunk in my entire previous life. Except when we were active on the front lines and did not have hot meals, coffee was always available and the mess-kit cups were huge.

In my Post #651, I quoted Van Gorder in Brokaw's book as telling how dog-tired they were and how the Scotch kept them going. Alcohol is a depressant and tends to put one to sleep. I would guess the Scotch numbed them from the horrible sights they were seeing. They probably also drank plenty of coffee.

Robby

I read that the reason that the D-Day Museum was built in New Orleans is that that is where the Higgins boats were built and that Eisenhower gave those boats and Mr Higgins the credit for winning the war. Also read that the D-Day Memorial was put up in Bedford,VA because their percentage of losses during the D-Day invasion was the highest in the U.S. A sad story!

Seems like we could be doing something better than building memorials with all that money. Even combining the monies to build a really good museum in D.C. about WWII would have been better.

Yes, I did use your clickable on to the Sad Sack. And yes, yes -- I sat by myself and laughed uproariously. I recommend that everyone here click onto it. If you were formerly in the Armed Forces, the memories will bring a grin to your face. If you were not, then click onto it so you can know what our life was like. It is funny because it is so true!! When you get into Sad Sack, click onto the "original" and you will get a picture of what we civilians went through as we became Government Issue. Thank you, Ann, for bringing that to us.

Robby

As you say, the 116th Regiment of the 29th Infantry Division suffered the greatest casualities on Omaha Beach. The 29th Division was composed of three regiments -- 115th, 116th, and 175th. I was a replacement for the 175th Regiment and joined them at Brest shortly after St. Lo. I remained with the 175th throughout combat across Germany. We have spoken earlier of the luck of the draw. I was not there at the moment of the invasion.

While in the States, I was on the cadre of the 100th Division and after being chosen for a second time to be on cadre, I got tired of that and volunteered to go overseas and did so. (Remember, I was young and foolish at the time.) Later when the 100th Divison went overseas, it saw vicious fighting in the Vosges Mountains and 50 percent of the three regiments became casualties (killed or wounded). I was no longer with the 100th Division. Luck of the draw? I wonder sometimes how come I am still here.

Route 29 which runs by the area in Virginia in which I live was named the 29th Infantry Division Memorial Highway. The National Guard unit where I live is still part of the 29th Division. Many of the Virginia units were recently assigned to Bosnia but I believe the NG unit here was excepted.

Robby

We GIs had warm feelings for Red Cross reps who were often very close to us geographically and emotionally. They wore uniforms and as far as we were concerned were "one of us." He had a right to receive that award.

Robby

We'll keep Lorraine's question about Midway Islands in mind with each new entry, certain that we will come across someone who served there before we are through.

Hugh, your comments on disillusionment strike a chord and have me wondering at what point the disullusionment kicked into the patriotic response to the call to action? Oh, and we will be devoting a full week beginning June 25 to you and Vets like you who went on to serve in that "forgotten" war in Korea. We look forward to hearing from you on that!

Foley! Welcome back! We look forward to more from you! How's the Lake?

You simply copy the WHOLE URL, the http line that shows at the top of each page in the address box.

Then you paste the URL into the formula that follows and name the link whatever you'd like. <a="paste URL here between the quotation marks">Your name for the link </a> So the link will look like this Your name for the link

Talk to you later! Did I say your folks are the "Greatest"? Did I thank you profusely for what you are bring here?

THANK YOU ALL!

A pleasant memory is still ingrained in my mind of my trip up the mountain of Obersaltzburg. I’m sure many folks have seen Hitler’s Eagles Nest, and some have taken the tour up the mountain. I would think there are only a few of us however that went up the mountain and visited with the folks who lived there during the intense bombing of Obersalzburg.

In August of nineteen forty five, four hundred and fifty American and British bombers destroyed the complex. I have pictures of it before and after. Fewer yet had the opportunity to rummage through the ruins of Hitler’s home and adjoining buildings in the immediate vicinity, the SS Troops barracks and some of his top official’s homes.

November 3rd, 1951


Dear Mary Ann,
Here I am in heaven and didn’t even know it! Bertesgaden is beautiful! Our trip here on the train was a sight to behold, particularly as we went through some of the mountain tunnels. Water falls exploded out of no where at the top of the mountains, dropping hundreds of feet in a narrow wisp of a stream and then out of sight. As quickly as I found them, the train would whiz back into another tunnel and the sight was gone. I never got any good pictures because of this.

Berchtesgarden is snuggled in the Bavarian Alps and is one of the more picturesque parts of Germany. It is noted for some excellent skiing and scenery to boggle the mind. It sure lives up to its reputation.

One of my friends, Ed Kimmeth from the Chicago area, and I had planned to take a tour to Obersaltzburg where Hitler’s home is. The day started out cold and rainy and the tour was called off, so at the suggestion of our host at the hotel, we left to see the salt mines, another major attraction. I will write you a letter of them also.

Later in the day as we returned it was still raining. We returned to our hotel to relax and were in the restaurant when a sergeant came who has been traveling alone. We started talking and found we really enjoyed his company. He had been in Berchtesgarden since 1948 and was going back to the states in three months. It was about time to eat so we invited him to join us.

We bought his dinner (ten cents!) Ha. When we finished eating he asked us if we would care to go up the Obersaltzburg with him. We had thought of it but told him the tour was all through for that day. He said no problem as he had a car! The sergeant had a car!

It was getting quite dark at the time but we started out anyhow. Obersaltzburg is the mountain where Hitler had his beautiful home and also the best of the SS Troopers were stationed here to protect him. Some of his top officials, including the notorious General Goebel and Goering had homes here on the same mountainside.

When we started up the mountain it was quite warm and had stopped raining, but when we were half way up we hit some snow and it got much colder. We couldn’t see a thing so there wasn’t much sense in continuing on, but we were just out for the ride anyhow.

Sgt. McDowell had a ’38 Opel and it had no heater. When we reached the top we found a small lodge where there were no GI’s. The only way to get there was by car. The people were glad to see us and as we were their only customers this late at night joined us for a few beers.

The tours had all stopped. We got to talking and I found her husband is a champion skier. He wasn’t in at the time, however there were trophies, medals and plaques all over the place. They lived less than five hundred feet from Hitler’s first house and the SS Barracks. They lived there in 1945 when 450 British and American planes came over and bombed it.

She told us how they hid in a bomb shelter in the side of the mountain and when she came out everything was in ruins but their lodge. The windows, doors and many other parts of the house were damaged, but the house and all the stuff in it was still in one piece. That’s more than you can say about Hitler’s place. We left there after gabbing for about two hours and she invited me back as her guest in December to ski with she and her husband. The German people were wonderful to us during my stay there.

----------The following day: Sergeant McDowell was waiting for us. We had lunch and once again took off for Obersalzburg. This time the view was beautiful. Still cloudy but beautiful. We looked down on Berchtesgaden and also several other smaller villages. It was like looking at toy buildings. There is a large lake I could see from here also, but I don’t think it was Lake Koenigssee.
<P. The first building we entered was the Berghof, Hitler’s home. It must have been a beautiful place, but it certainly is in sad shape now. No one is supposed to go in the ruins, but we went all through everything! There were no guides or anyone else around so we even went in the basement and had to look around by the light of my cigarette lighter. It was really quite morbid so we didn’t stay there long. There were big slabs of concrete that were kind of balancing over our heads so we went back upstairs.

Even there we had to watch our footing so we wouldn’t go through the floor and end up in the basement. Ha. Sergeant McDowell took my picture looking out Hitler’s living room picture window. What a view. They say you can see Austria, Switzerland and Italy from here. As I stood there looking out the window I had many thoughts of what type a person he must have been. If only all his energy could have been directed in a different direction. Sadly I guess his motivation was power and greed.

After looking all through that house we went through some of the ruins of the SS barracks. Here we found what must have been a kitchen and some huge cookers that had moldy food floating around in the melted snow water. Ugh. It is hard to believe these things have been here since nineteen forty five, but I know no one has used them since! I could have grabbed some souvenirs but it would have cost a fortune to ship them home.

There were pieces of stained glass, desk flags, bent up steel, and other junk. All of the military souvenirs had been grabbed by now and there was nothing of interest to me. It was fun roaming around through the bombed out buildings at our leisure. We had the car so we didn’t have to worry about missing a bus. Also the tour guides don’t let you enter any of the buildings.

------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- Reading this letter again today I remember one of the eerie feelings that ran through my mind. I was just glad I was not over there when all the bombing was going on. Even as I went through these buildings six years later there were still personal effects scattered through out the building. A tragic reminder of the war.

I am intrigued that you mention the SPARS. For those new to that acronym it comes from Semper Paratus - Always Ready, the motto of the Coast Guard, and represents the women who served in the Coast Guard during World War II. The Coast Guard, both men and women, played a vital part in that war and I don't see how we can tell the story without bringing them into the picture.

Is there anything that folks here can say to help document the credit they deserve?

Robby

Robby

Norm T, I so enjoyed your letter. Weren't you lucky to still have that letter?

Robby, do you think that you could repeat your story of coming home to NYC on the ship and up the Hudson River to the Statue of Liberty? Not all of the people who are posting here have heard it and it is so meaningful.

One of the writers to Tom Brokaw in "GG Speaks" mentions that he feels that the books are about character and that it seems to be missing from so many young people today. What say you?

I returned home from Europe in April, 1946. No one on the ship has been overseas less than two years. It was a strange feeling going back across the same waters on which we had watched destroyers protecting us and had watched for signs of submarines. Each of the ships carrying "our boys" home left singly and as quickly as possible so that peace time activities could replace the craziness of the last four years.

I was on a Liberty Ship. They were not built for comfort. We would stand in the prow of the ship watching it rise up on the crest of a wave. The wave would disappear leaving a space and the ship would crash downward making the whole vessel shudder throughout its length. The scuttlebutt was that the Captain told someone who told someone else that he intended to resign upon arriving at port -- that he would not continue to guide a "death ship." We found it ironic that we had survived a horrible war in the name of freedom and now might die on the way home in a ship symbolizing "liberty."

We passed the icebergs - we passed the Azores -- and then an announcement came from the Captain over the public address system. We were going to land in New York Harbor. New York!! America!! Home!! Who was the person who coined that ridiculous statement: "I hate to see a grown man cry?" Have you ever seen a thousand men cry? All at the same time? And no one ashamed? As I said, no one on that ship had been home for under two years. On that ship were men who had not seen their wives, children, family members or girl friends in that period of time. There were also men who had received "Dear John" letters letting them know that they had former wives and sweethearts and that there might be no one waiting for them. Nevertheless, America would be waiting for them and for this they were grateful.

GIs gathered in knots on the deck and below talking about nothing else. Because we were landing in New York, we knew we would pass the Statue of Liberty, the emblem that symbolized all for which we had been fighting. By God, we showed Hitler!! We had won over that type of tyranny and as we passed that Lady with the upheld torch, we were going to let out a cheer such as you wouldn't believe.

The day arrived. We entered the lower harbor and faintly in the distance the Statue of Liberty could be seen. Our speed slowed and as we approached the Statue, everyone (repeat everyone) gathered topside. I don't know who was in the galleys or lying in hammocks below, if anyone, but the deck was a mass of brown uniforms, all their wearers looking in one direction. It was late afternoon, the sun was setting over New Jersey, and now the moment for cheering had come. We were slowly passing under the Statue.

There we were, thousands of battle-hardened, some wounded, ordinarily foul-mouthed veterans standing on the deck, looking upward --- and not a sound. Not a sound!! It was possible to hear the rush of the water past the ship. I looked around me and saw war-wrinkled faces with tears streaming down them. I say "saw" but it was most difficult because of my own tears.

Ever so slowly as the ship passed the Statue, individual soldiers slowly drifted away to their own hammocks and into their own thoughts. No talking. Just an eerie silence as the ship moved into the mouth of the Hudson River.

Robby

In May of 1945, in the closing days of WW2 in Europe, we were running hell- bent down the Autobahn, using one of General George Patton's favorite tactics, with infantry riding in trucks, armored vehicles, and on top of tanks.

This method had turned out to be a disaster at Kasserine Pass in Africa, where we were out flanked, over run and suffered more than 5000 American casualties and lost more than 100 tanks.

However, to end the war, it was felt by the U.S. Army Command that it was necessary to cut off the escaping Germans in Rosenheim, and to secure the bridge to the area leading to the Redoubt country, and Berchtesgaden and the Eagle's nest as quickly as possible.

As we neared the bridge site, the Germans fled, and we took up the chase, only to be stopped by a great number of mines that had been strewn along the   bridge flooring, and the bridge road approaches. While removing the mines, the recon platoon saw a smoldering fuse beneath the bridge, and the C.O., 2nd Lieutenant Emile Byke, rushed down and cut the prima cord (an instantaneous type fuse) on a huge amount of demolition, just in time to save the bridge and many men's lifes, and much military equipment.

This allowed us to enter Obersalzberg and Berchtesgaden, capturing the entire Rosenheim garrison and Hitler's mountain retreat, where Marshall Hermann Goering and 25 German SS officers were holed up with much military fortification.

German units were surrendering in their entirety, and hundreds of enemy troops marched into our lines to give themselves up, although they were still fully armed.

I had 3 younger brothers serving in WW2, and one brother, George. had been shot down , severely wounded, and captured while on a bombing mission over Ober- Salzberg, and was in a German Prison hospital in the area and as luck would have it, he was liberated by my Division. He was suffering badly with gangrene due to a lack of medical supplies and treatment, and was immediately flown out to England and then to the U.S., where he spent the next 3 years at Cushing General Hospital in Boston, for surgery and rehabilitation.

Although he is crippled and still suffering from his WW2 wounds, he has no bitterness toward his former captors, and regularly corresponds with one of them in Austria by email with my assistance.

"You remember when we heard that they were giving us salt-peter?"

Yeah?"

Well, darn if that stuff isn't beginning to work on me now!"

Robby

Great that you are intending to show your sons a letter some day. As indicated by the quote in the heading above, Brokaw, while writing his book, hoped that it would help to create a "dialogue between generations."

Robby

And then I cried again at the image of Patrick's dividion liberating the camp with his own severely wounded brother inside! Patrick! What is his name? May we add him to the "Greatest" list?

Norm, another one who saved those precious letters. Priceless! We are so grateful you are all sharing these memories with us! Thank you!

Whether some of us are a "great" generation or not has been debated from time to time in this forum but one thing is undebatable -- this generation will come to an end. There will be nothing left but the words now spoken. Is there, as Brokaw hopes in the quote above, a dialogue going on between generations so that a lesson can be learned? Will younger generations pay any attention to these words while we are still here or after we are gone? Can we do anything about that? Do we have any influence on what they read? Can our words be made permanent in any way? Does it make any difference?

Robby

Robby

* You simply copy the WHOLE URL, the http line that shows at the top of each page in the address box. Hendie, you've been typing these URLS in your posts. You need to paste them into the following formula, so that it looks exactly like this:

If anyone can learn code, YOU can!

Norm, you're right, the US government shouldn't be blamed for the movie industry, but let's talk about another area which several of our posters have brought up from time to time in this discussion. There is an entire chapter on "SHAME" in The Greatest Generation, referring to the shame of racial discrimation at this time.

Martha Settle Putney , shares her personal experience with racism in the Women's Army Corps. Do we have any WACS among us? I hadn't considered women of color in the armed services before. Never saw their faces represented in drawings or photographs! Yet we are told there was a quota of black Americans in the WACS, due to the intervention of Eleanor Roosevelt.

Have any of you witnessed or experienced racial discrimation in the armed services? Can you imagine this - while fighting against the greatest bigot in history?

We are told in this chapter that such racism was sanctioned by the highest officials in our government. Is this your understanding of how things were?

Later!

Good to have you with us. Considering your birth date, Joan will enter you into the list above of "Senior Net's Greatest." Please come back and share some of your memories and thoughts with us.

James:

Joan and Marcie (Director of Education) are currently in contact with Tom Brokaw's office and will keep us up to date as to when and how Brokaw will answer our questions.

Robby

Now compare that remark with the quote by Martha Settle Putney above. Was there a racial divide in the military during World War II? How did it affect military operations as you remember them. Is there a divide now? Do you see change?

Robby

Pat, of course I remember expow/Don from the Good War discussion. Do you have his address? Perhaps anyone interested in dropping him a line might email you for his address if you have it? Will wait to hear from you...

Ellen, I am interested in your comments about the Red Cross policy of serving Black Americans equally during the war. I'm getting the impression that the discrimination was NOT so much practiced by the individual servicemen as by the segregation set up by the government, the higher echelons of the service. Martha Settle was a Black WAC - a lieutenant (although it wasn't easy to get that promotion) - she relates that black WACs were to use the swimming pool only on Fridays and then they would clean out the pool for the coming week. All of the units on her base were segregated except one - recruits who were having a struggle with basic training...including a half dozen black women. Martha ordered the black recruits to "swim with your unit"...after that the pool rules relaxed and the women began swimming when they wanted to.

She relates that the base band was not integrated, but what really made her mad was the fact that the GERMAN POWs were allowed to wander freely on the base And use the officer's club - from which black US officers were banned...

Am I interpreting correctly that the Red Cross was more "colorblind" than the military?

Robby

What you call your "fantasy" is so insightful that I will make no comment and let it speak for itself.

Robby

A significant number of Northern soldiers were "negroes," as they were called at that time. These were not part of the 100th Division because integration had not yet taken place. These men were part of Service Battalions and had passes to Columbia like every other GI. We must remember that this was 1942. Toward the end of the end of the evening as the buses to Ft. Jackson lined up by the curb to take them back to the base, those white soldiers who were from the South revolted at seeing "niggers"in the very same line and then, adding salt to their wounds, sitting in whatever seats they chose.

This was more than they could bear. Blood flowed in the streets of Columbia and this is not a symbolic statement. The MPs on many occasions could not handle the numerous fights. This went on every single night. No memos came out from headquarters asking for peace for, again we must remember, many of the commanding officers were themselves white Southerners.

Robby

Annafair: If your brother has any Coast Guard stories to tell, please pass them along to us.

Robby

You are so correct. One can live in a shanty and be "great!!"

Robby

Robby

Robby

"I have had about 20 years in the service both at home and overseas 1942 to 1962 and have not had any personal experience with discrimination toward any minority groups or individuals. I have not read the book yet but intend to in the near future. I am sorry to hear the reports I have read. Hope it will be clarified. "

Of course not. It never entered our minds. Practically everyone of us had grown up in a white neighborhood and was used to going through life never (or hardly ever) seeing a black face. We were used to seeing only white faces about us. Occasionally a shower battalion serviced by black troops came in to furnish much needed showers and occasionally black truck drivers zoomed by on the Red Ball Highway but that just touched the tip of our consciousness.

Therefore there was no discrimination because there were no black soldiers in our units to discriminate against. We were not thrown against each other. Only when blacks and whites came across each other behind the front lines or when on pass in some rear area did discrimination rear its ugly head.

I agree completely. That's exactly my point.

Robby

Here's a question...does WAC stand for "Women's Army Corps" OR "Women's Auxiliary Corps"?

Here's how Martha Settle Putney describes the WAC and her experience:

"As a student of history, Martha understood that the war "was the turning point of the century. When it was over the world would change. And I wanted to profit from it."

She also wanted to be an officer and told the WAC official she would accept nothing less than a commission. It was an elite group: The Army had agreed to recruit blacks, but no more than their representation in the population. In other words, a quotaForty black women were selected..."

Odd that you should mention the French as I was bringing this article on France and integration from the Washington Post. There were some interesting points on affirmative action, which Martha Settle speaks of in this chapter. The article is interesting, but long...so I'll print out the relevent parts in case you don't feel like reading the whole thing...

"Racial discrimination, even racism itself, remains a persistent fact of life in France--and the French themselves admit it under the anonymity of a pollster's survey. According to a Louis Harris opinion poll released in March, only 29 percent of those surveyed declared themselves "not racist." More than 6 in 10 said there were too many people of "foreign origin" in France, and they were specific about it: 63 percent said there were too many Arabs, and 38 percent said there were too many blacks.

An estimated 4 million to 5 million black people live in France, most of whom trace their roots, if not their birthplaces, to former French colonies in Africa and the West Indies. The number of Muslims is between 5 million and 6 million, the vast majority of them from what is called the Maghreb--the three North African nations of Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia.

Such numbers are only educated guesses. Unlike the United States, which asks residents about their race and ethnicity at each census, counting by race is illegal under France's strict color-blind policies.

It is not just counting that the French object to. What Americans call affirmative action, the French reject as "positive discrimination," and they resist other deliberate efforts to propel disadvantaged minorities up the socioeconomic ladder. The French often cite the divisions created by busing and race-based gerrymandering in the United States as reasons to avoid such social experiments.

Such efforts, many French say, run against the traditions of the centralized French state and violate the melting-pot ideal that many Americans have abandoned. List-keeping, or ethnic branding, still carries the waft of France's ugliest modern period, Vichy, when French authorities under Nazi occupation assisted zealously in the identification and deportation of more than 70,000 French Jews who were made to wear Stars of David sewn to their clothing.

By adhering strictly to its color-blind policies, France has not violated its national creed of egalitarianism. But another consequence is that "France is 30 years behind the United States" in its efforts to become the multicultural, integrated, tolerant society that it claims to be, said prize-winning author Calixthe Beyala, an African immigrant who is known for her uncompromising views on institutionalized French racism and is active in the uphill fight here to promote affirmative action."

Robby

Please allow me to cite another experience which was a regular event that took place at Ft. Jackson at the end of each month prior to our going overseas.

One of the Service Battalions would be the Finance Battalion resonsible for paying everyone. The accepted procedure would be for the enlisted man to step up to the Paymaster Officer, salute smartly, take his envelope, step back one pace, salute smartly again, and leave. However, as I stated in earlier postings, many of those in Service Battalions were black and the Paymaster was often black.

To prevent unseemly conduct, the usual practice was for the black officer to hang his cap on a chair and the enlisted man would salute the hat. In this way, he was saluting the rank and not the man. This was the procedure followed in many areas across the nation by an Army which was soon going overseas to fight for democracy.

Robby

Let me copy it again here to be sure...

"I posted earlier, that as a 17teen year old, I had my first encounter with racial prejudice. Stationed at camp LeJuene North Carolina with coast guard amphibious forces, I went to Jacksonville N.C. with several buddies, to go to the movies, bought our tickets, entered, and were stopped by the manager who told us that the white sailors were to go to the seats on the main floor and our black buddie would have to go upstairs. we protested to no avail and left the theatre together. Coming from the Boston area and of Irish ancestry I had grow up with stories of "no Irish need apply" appearing in store windows regarding employment or "no Irish or dogs allowed" appearing in restaurant"s , but this was a new one."

Robby

Robby

Robby

Brinkley, in the interview, referred to Tom Brokaw and the book we are discussing here. Brinkley believes that Parks should be named as one of the "greats" in the Greatest Generation. Rosa Parks was born in 1913, is now 87 years old, and is still alert.

Did the Greatest Generation become that primarily due to people like Rosa Parks? Did her action help lead toward a national feeling of shame regarding discrimination?

Robby

Robby

Based upon your posting (#784) I sent an e-mail to EXPOW's cousin, Willie, asking for additional information. EXPOW (Don Jurgs)is an esteemed member of this group and we are very concerned about him.

Robby

His tale runs as follows: “Towards the end of the war the Allied armies were liberating towns and villages so fast that chaos was setting in. Therefore, a military unit was left in each town and village to keep order. A staff-sergeant and his platoon of 24-men were sent to keep order in the little village of Do-da-don .”(phonetic pronunciation).

”After establishing billeting for the men and a form of ‘headquarters’ building, the men set about establishing order, but they soon discovered they had no “old glory” to fly over the headquarters building. So the Staff sergeant set about finding the town seamstress so that she could make a flag for them. The seamstress was more than glad to do this. They found cloth from any where they could. One man gave them his shirt for the field of blue background for the white stars. And finally the flag was made and raised over the headquarters building, where soldiers and towns people would more than willingly stand every morning and salute “old glory.”

”When it became time for the unit to be returned to the states, the flag was taken down and given to the Staff sergeant. When he returned home with the flag, he gave it to his wife and she would display it every Memorial Day and Fourth of July. But the sergeant would never talk about this flag or his war time experience, as so many men wouldn’t.”

Finally, on the Fourth of July 1999 the Sergeant told his wife he wanted this flag to be displayed in the front window of their house. He even told them how the flag was made and that the red for the red bars came from the background of the Nazi emblem that had hung over the little village The Staff sergeant died three months later.”

”Now you’ve heard the rest of the story.”

Would it be accurate to say that in the 20 years or so that had elapsed, Blacks has a greater opportunity opened to them?

Robby

Is there someone "out there" who is Black or Oriental or Native American but prefers not to identify himself as such? Are we Whites just spinning our wheels, pointing to the "shame" we now feel and, in the process, feeling so good about ourselves? Mea Culpa?

Just what do we have to say to generations after us concerning this subject?

Robby

And just how do we go about "helping to make the future better with love and understanding for the needs of others?"

Robby

My point here is that although I didn't think that the younger generations listened to us or were much interested in us, I feel that as a grandparent or step-grandparent(aunt,uncle,cousin), we can have influence with our young people. It does have to start when they are very young. It helps if you are a storyteller but hugs count for much,too. And, sometimes, it may seem that we aren't making headway, but we have to be confident that they are listening to us. I recently read an excellent article in the Atlantic Monthly concerning a young man and his grandfather,titled "The Transmission of Hope". Its here online. Granpa's Influence

Pat! Thank you so much for Expow's address! Wouldn't it be great if we could establish a dialog with him here, through his cousin Woody? He might enjoy the contact as he did in the "Good" War discussion...

~Tom Brokaw writes that Black Americans had "few champions of racial equality outside their own ranks. Eleanor Roosevelt spoke up for them, but her husband, the president, the great champion of the common man, was mostly quiet on the subject." There was "institional apartheidism" in place in government and therefore in the military before the war. This is how things were as the "greatest generation" came of age.

~Martha Settle, "a working-class black female from a tough town in Philadelphia", interviewed in this chapter, understood that the war represented an opportunity for change and was determined to make a difference. The newly formed WAC was "an elite group, which had agreed to recruit blacks - but no more than their representation in the population. In other words, a quota." Within six weeks, Martha Settle had her lietenant's bars. She has a lot more to say about the opportunities which opened up for her (not without a fight!), but the point is, that due to the perseverence and sacrifice of these members of these "Greatest", change did begin to take place.

Fast forward to today:

Lieutenant Settle, now (Dr. Martha Putney) "is saddened at the recent turn against affirmative action in California and other states. She knows what can happen when government programs provide opportunity." Your thoughts?

Martha Putney, at the printing of this book was working on her histories of the role of blacks in the armed forces at the Smithsonian. What would you ask her if you could speak to her? I'll bet she's on-line! Will make an effort to contact her today!

Dunmore: Thanks for sharing your memories about service in the Coast Guard. You talk about just doing "business" but there was danger involved of course. Any memories about combat action? So little has been said here about the Coast Guard in action.

Ellen believes that the "next generation won't give a hoot what we say to them" yet Ann suggests that we have more influence than we think.

I recommend that we all use the link Ann gave us to read George McKenna's essay about Grandpa. He tells about spending much time with his grandparents and then - they "suddenly aged". He defines grandparents passing on their "stories" to grandchildren as a "civilizing ritual" and that if we "deprive" them of these stories, we will be incomprehensible to them. He quotes Christopher Lasch as saying: "Hope derives from memories of the past."

Are we depriving our grandchildren of these memories? Is keeping them "civilized" partly our responsibility? Are we procrastinating until the moment comes when we "suddenly age" and then don't care any more?

Robby

As of this morning, EXPOW is still in the Veterans Hospital in Minneapolis. There are no details as to why he is there. His wife is collecting all the e-mails he is getting and is taking them to him in the hospital. His cousin tells me that receiving such messages makes him very happy. I am sure that he would be most pleased to hear from his friends in Senior Net.

His e-mail address is grumpngray@aol.com

Robby

Robby, thanks for the update. It is good to know that we can indeed communicate with EXPOW...

Robby

"The powerful currents of the wartime experience liberated and energized hometown Americans and returning veterans alike to fight prejudice. As early as 1942, the California League of Women Voters fought against immigration discrimination. The road from segregated military camps led to the overturning, in 1952, of the 1790 naturalization law and on to Brown v. Board of Education and the civil rights revolution. Fueled by war, the American melting pot had finally begun to boil for all its citizens."

I have a question - when did the WAC disband? When were women accepted into the regular army? Whenever that happened, I'm assuming that the army was integrated? Is that right?

  This Group became the 332nd Fighter Group, and the black pilots were kept segregated from the white pilots by several miles, while they were providing escort service for the long range bombers of the Fifteenth Air Force, flying deep into Germany on bombing missions. They got the nickname Lonely Eagles because they flew alone.

  It was only after several missions that they were accepted as equal flying partners.   My brother George, who bailed out of his bomber after it was hit and caught fire while bombing Hitler's Eagle Nest at Berchtesgaden, gives much praise and admiration for the bravery and skill of the African American pilots of the 332 Fighter Group.

This Group flew B51 fighter planes, and were providing escort service to the 15th Air Force long range bombers, protecting them from enemy fighter attacks while they were on this bombing missions over Obersalzburg.

While George was descending in his parachute after bailing out, one of the enemy fighter planes kept circulating around him, shooting at him repeatedly, and wounding him severely.

Suddenly one of the African American fighter pilots appeared, and engaged and shot down the enemy plane, and then flew around and protected George, until he hit the ground and was taken prisoner by the SS troops from the nearby garrison.

  To this day George talks about how relieved he was to see the flash of white teeth on the dark skin of the fighter pilot, as he grinned and held his thumb up in a victory salute after the enemy fighter had been shot down.

  Never again would George ever be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

Patrick, have you ever asked George to participate in our Discussion Group?

Robby

Yes, will you bring George's thoughts to us? Has he ever met up with any of the "Lonely Eagles" since the war?

I’m of Irish decent and Catholic to boot--now there’s a great combination, an Irish Mick. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA moved to one of the surrounding suburbs after I married, and I can honestly say that I never encountered any discrimination against the Irish in Pittsburgh. Maybe it was because the Pittsburgh Police force, at that time was predominately Irish, from entry rank level clear to the top and if you weren’t Irish you had as much chance as a snow ball in H... of being elected Mayor of the city. Perhaps all this put a damper on discrimination against the Irish in Pittsburgh

As we read about these incidents, we must remind ourselves that we are talking about the "Greatest Generation."

Robby

Glad you decided to join us. We are looking forward to some more of your experiences.

Bill:

I have a copy of Crusade in Europe which has also been with me for over 30 years. You are right. It's a book well worth reading.

Robby

There were times during World War II when the Germans came close to our Eastern Coast. Any stories of the action of the Coast Guard there?

Robby

Sparks flying in all directions here! Where to start?

First, a WELCOME to the new "faces", Stratton2 & williewoody!!! Every voice brings more fascinating detail to this tapestry we are weaving here. Please come back often!

Stratton2, isn't it funny how we remember the small homey details first, like "coloring the butter"? It is those details that send us back in time to childhood to remember others -

williewoody, you are now officially welcomed and registered in the list of "SENIORNET's GREATEST" in the heading above...you'll notice some photos there. We hope to add others when our official photokeeper, Joan Grimes, returns from vacation next week. Send her yours, okay? We think it's fantastic that you are here with us for two reasons...to serve as a link with EXPOW - (what I remember most about him is his great sense of humor!)
plus the fact that you served in the South Pacific (more exciting news about that later) and that, like Norm T you have stories of the Korean War to share with us on June 25 when we hope to revisit and address many questions regarding that "forgotten" war. Again, Welcome!

dunsmore, will you please tell again of your own experience with the Coast Guard? I suppose this is the time and place to ask...was the Coast Guard integrated during the war? Any memories of that?

I'm thinking of the men like Johnnie Holmes& Walter Morris, outstanding, recognized soldiers...they were the in the minority of the black men who served, weren't they. Only 10% of the black troops were in combat, the rest were confined to service duty - stewards, cooks, drivers... Martha Settle tells her students that they must be the best they can be - that they represent their race...and that she is saddened by the termination of affirmative action in California and other states. What do you think of affirmative action? What does this mean for minorities?

I think that in this particular Discussion Group we are having a serious problem. The problem doesn't lie with Senior Net or with this forum, it lies with the fact that we are all part of American society and that despite the Civil Rights movement, there is still a huge division between Black and White and that, furthermore, we either do not want to discuss it or do not even acknowledge it. About 30 years ago the Koerner report stated that there were two societies within the United States -- one black, one white.

In this Discussion Group we are to cover Brokaw's book and talk primarily about that generation that has been called the "greatest." However, that generation did not live only in the early part of the 20th Century; it lives now and it may very well have the same attitudes it had then. In my opinion, we need more Baby Boomers and Gen X in this forum. Ever so gradually as the years pass, attitudes are changing. It is not uncommon these days to see mixed couples holding hands in public. That was unacceptable in "our" time. We see Black sitting judges pronounce rulings on White defendents. Never never in 1940!!

I believe that most of us born somewhere between 1915 and 1930 or 1935 are prisoners of the culture in which we were born. Except for a few participants the topic of discrimination is rarely commented upon here. Implied is: "Let's get on with the real subject here" -- whatever that may be.

I don't personally believe we can understand how the Greatest Generation thought and acted during Depression and WWII years unless we understand how we think and act now. Yes, many of us have re-thought how we acted then and have tried with some measure of success to change but many of us tend to brush this unpleasant topic aside.

How does that expression go? "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree."

Robby

There is much on this page about segrations and racism during the war.

And here is the History Channel's page about WWII and letters from the veterans. And how to preserve your letters and share them if you want to do so. WWII Memories on the History Channel

Isn't it interesting what Tom Brokaw and maybe even Studs Terkel have started from their books?

Welcome to our two newest posters. Hope you will continue to do so.

And, Robby, what about "The apple, it don't fall far from the tree!"

The Koerner Commission in 1968 (over 30 years ago) came to the conclusion that this nation was in danger of becoming two nations, separate and unequal -- one nation Black and poor and one nation White and rich. Have we of the "greatest" generation done anything either directly or through our children or grand-children to strengthen our society in this area?

Yes -- this is an emotional topic but are we "great" enough to 1) address it directly, 2) address it with as much self-honesty as we are able to muster, and 3) address it with as little emotion as possible and with much courtesy and consideration toward those with opposing views?

Robby

Msybe I'm missing the connection. How is that related to our "greatest" generation in the United States?

Robby

Robby

As we read these comments in Brokaw's books, can we deny in any way that there were traits about "our" generation which most definitely were not "great?"

Robby

Robby

  You asked me about having my brother George share some of his Air Force and POW memories of WW2. I hope to encourage him to do this in the near future.

While he was a prisoner of war, he developed gangrene in his wounds, because of a lack of medical attention and supplies. (The Russian doctors were using crepe paper for bandages).

George spent 3 years in a military hospital after WW2, and after many operations, the specialists were able to clear up the gangrene by using maggots to eat up the contaminated flesh.

George joins former buddies and WW2 members of the 15th Air Force at all their reunions, and tells me that colored veterans of the Lone Eagles, who provided their escort service on bombing missions, also make their appearance with their wifes and families.

I had 3 younger brothers beside myself who served in combat units in WW2, all who have received decorations for valor, as well as another young brother who served in the occupation army in Germany after the war.   None of them are computer literate, or care to talk about their experiences in this discussion group, although they read all the topics regularly with me at my house.

  They visit me often, as I am over 80 years old, severely disabled and house bound. I hope I can get them computer literate in the future,so they can contribute their WW2 experiences.

I received an email from Jean this AM. (She is the wife of expow Don). She says that Don is still in the VA hospital in Minneapolis, and although he is much improved, is still severely depressed. She hopes the medications will clear this up quickly. She says he is deeply touched by all the good wishes and prayers on his behalf from this group, and that they lift his spirit. Keep the encouragement going to GrumpNgray@aol.com.

The other side of the coin, of course, are the re-unions of which Patrick speaks where the White veterabs of the 15th Air Force are joined by the Black Lone Eagles who escorted them during the war.

Robby

Perhaps you have some further information to share with us about the Chehalis Indians and their life in that era. After all, they were part of the "Greatest Generation."

Robby

You are absolutely correct that this forum is discussing, as you say, World War II and Depression experiences. As we look back we realize that it is impossible to tell the whole unvarnished truth about those days without including the many cases of discrimination, both during Depression days and in the military in WWII. History does not include only happy events. As Ellen points out in her appraisal of the unfortunate attitude of some of the Oregon American Legion posts toward Japanese-Americans, the "good old days" were not always that good.

Please take advantage of the link that Mal kindly furnished. If you click onto that, you will be able to read many of the Great Depression anecdotes told in this forum. And please continue to share your thoughts and memories with us.

Robby

It is becoming obvious to us, however, as we read Brokaw's books and share our thoughts here that while it was not in the thoughts of White personnel regularly it was in the thinking of Black people on a daily basis. In Washington, Black leaders such as A. Philip Randolph and Roy Wilkins (Pg 228 of GG Speaks) were putting pressure on President Roosevelt to develop a Black paratroop outfit. Walter Morris, who was mentioned earlier, led a platoon of sixteen fellow Blacks in parachute training and they became the 555th Parachute Infantry Battalion. Instead of their being sent to fight overseas, however, they were sent to the Pacific Northwest as smoke jumpers to fight forest fires.

Can we here understand the "deep disappointment" that Morris says he felt?

Robby

If you have the opportunity you might want to buy (or borrow) "Greatest Generation" and "Greatest Generation Speaks." Getting one or both of these books will be helpful to you as we move gradually through the chapters of these books. If you prefer not to get the books, that's OK, too, because we not only comment on the books but we also share our personal memories and experiences and you will continue to find yourself comfortable with us.

Dunmore:

About a month ago on National Public Radio I heard an interview of the author of "Flags of Our Fathers" as he spoke of the experiences of his father and others at Iwo Jima. As you say, there were "vivid and horrific images."

Robby

Be sure to note that Walter Morris, (the pioneer responsible for the formation of the first unit of black paratroopers), completed combat training during the closing days of the war against Japan when his battalion was sent to the Pacific Northwest as smoke jumpers - to fight forest fires started by Japanese incendiary balloons. I'm wondering if Ellen has heard of this as this is her neck of the woods.

What happened to Thomas Jefferson?

Robby

  Five of the boys served in the armed services during WW2, four in combat units, and the youngest in the army of occupation in Germany after the fighting stopped.

There was no discrimination nor intolerance in my neighborhood while I was a youth, and my religiously devout parents, who could barely speak English, never spoke negatively about other ethnic or racial groups, and had instilled in us the idea that we were all created by God, equal in status,regardless of race , color or crreed, all facing the same difficultiess, and all should be helped during those difficult depression days.

I was friendly with the local Rabbi's children, and the chidren of members of his congregation, and was often welcomed into their homes during the depression, and shared their kosher food and stories with them, even though they knew I was a Christian.

One of my best friends was Jake Miller, son of a local junk dealer, who sold used furniture to the depression era families.

  Jake and I both enlisted after Pearl Harbor and took basic training together. Jake was killed in WW2. However, during basic training, we realized that there was much racial discrimination and intolerance prevalent throughout other areas of the country, as some of our fellow recruits demonstrated this on many occassions.

Being of French descent, I was labelled as "a frog", Jake was Jewish, so he was "a kike ". An Italian was "a wop", a German was "a kraut", a Mexican,Cuban or South American was "a spick", negroes were "coons". Recruits whose origins were from the south western states were called "Okies" and "Arkies" and Native Americans were called "Geronimos" There were other labels for recruits from different locations and other races and nationalities WW2 became the great melting pot, and after fighting together through many Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, witnessing many deaths and casualties and protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all.

Never again would we be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

In earlier postings I have shared some experiences indicating what was going on in the military. However, Patrick says: "Never again would we be intolerant."

Is that your opinion of today, Patrick? Is that how the rest of you feel?

Robby

Robby

I have spent an interesting afternoon at work talking with three black guards...who are quite interested in this discussion. (To a man, they agreed they "resent" being called "African Americans" - "I've never been to Africa in my life.") Of course Robby would say they are too young to comment on WWII - in fact, they claim not to know much about it except who won, who lost. But they did all agree to one interesting point, which led to the question on the presidents. I'll tell you about that later, because it is not an idle question. Their responses make an important point, I think...

Robby

Robby

Ellen: Did your "adoped father" tell you any stories about Alaska during the war that you can pass on to us?

Betty: We have many people in the Virginia area where I live who are very proud and speak often of their Native American heritage.

Robby

Your points are well-taken. Betty, you're right, just because this group of young Black men (in their 20's & 30's) dislike the A-F designation (so do Maryal's Black students, I understand) does not mean that all do. Perhaps this is a "young" men's reaction? I'll add here that they don't much like the term 'Causcasian' either, but didn't feel as strongly about that.

Okay, now I'll tell you how we got started on the Presidents' list...which grew out of a discussion about racial discrimination. There were several older Black men involved in this discussion...between 40 and 68, but none had direct knowledge of World War II.

You know, I wish I had a tape of this discussion! Betty, I know this was only one discussion, and the dangers of making sweeping conclusions from one such discussion - but this was real, direct contact with some Black men from Washington, DC who had something to say and were very eager to express their views. They inadvertantly brought up an very interesting question for our discussion. Hopefully YOU as a group will come up with some answers.

On the subject of segregation of troops and discrimination within the military during WWII, one man commented that there will always be discrimination "if you can get away with it because that's just the way people are." He said that if it wasn't skin color, it would be something else - big guys picking on little guys...a pecking order - based on anything at all that makes one person feel better than another, so that he can feel better about himself.

He went on to say, and the others all nodded in agreement, that whether or not people get away with this as a group depends on those in charge..."it all comes from the top." If those at the top seem to ignore what is going on, it will go on. "The man at the top sets the tone" was how he put it.

I honestly can't remember if I brought up presidents, or if they did, but at one point I did ask who they thought were the best we've had. Aside from leading to the question for our discussion, they had some pretty interesting, unexpected choices...(several of the older men provided their list later in the day, not in the company of the younger ones.)

I'll type them up now...

ps. Ellen, I've never heard of the Good Life channel...son has a sattelite dish that delivers millions of channel..or so it seems, and I think he gets listings...will ask him about it.
Did you ever hear of Japanese incendiary bombing into the forests of the Pacific Northwest during the war - particularly towards the end of the war?

We have not heard from him recently and miss him. I have been in e-mail contact with his wife who has given me permission to share what is going on. EXPOW is currently in a Minneapolis VA Hospital being treated not only from the various physical ailments he has had for some time but, in addition, is suffering from depression. This "depresses" the rest of us who know him. He is being visited regularly by his fellow POWs and has been encouraged to use a laptop computer so he can back to us in Senior Net but does not feel up to it at the present time.

I am sure many of you are concerned and I will keep you up to date.

Robby

I know your post referred to John Kennedy but I still remember vividly (on TV) the train bearing the corpse of Robert Kennedy slowly pulling past the Baltimore station. The crowd, mostly black, was on both sides of the track so close that some of them were almost hit. And spontaneously they were singing "Battle Hymn of the Republic."

Why were most of them black? What were the Kennedys offering them that they felt they had just lost? I am white (or tan and pink if you will) and try to understand but I guess I will never be able to walk a moon in their moccasins.

Robby

This is not regression. It is a stand that the Baptists have always had. It's a matter of interpretation of the Bible. By the way I am not a Baptist but have a son that spent nine years in the Baptist Seminary. I thought he was going to be a professional student (grin).,

It depends upon your base line. It may be the same stand that the Baptists have always had but it is regression from the direction in which society is moving. At least in my opinion.

Robby

"A year or so ago I visited Fort Huachuca, Arizona in Sierra Vista, Arizona and the military museum there where I learned of the existence of the 92nd Infantry Divison that trained there in the WWII era. It was a segregated all black (except for officers) outfit with a history that goes back to WWI. Black soldiers from the 10th Cavalry were also stationed there after the Civil War- but not related to the 92nd (formed in 1917)


It was also the site of training for a segregated of WAAC's but I haven't looked for records of them.

Reactivated Oct. 1942.

.

In an interesting sidelight one of the intern camps for American Japanese detainees was also in that general area of Arizona and the American Japanese troops (also a segreagted unit) also fought in the Italian campaign (as well as scattered special assignemts as interpreters in the Pacific Theatre.

Does anyone have any information about this infamous "EXECUTIVE ORDER 9066" that came out of FDR's oval office?

Robby

And then, you can share the pages you find using a link, the formula for which we will continue to post here. When you have found an interesting page, right click to highlight and COPY the URL(http line) that appears in the Address line at the top of the page. Then PASTE the URL in between the quotation marks in the following formula (and you name the link whatever you want where I have inserted "Sweet Sixteen" here):

We visited Port Angeles, too, Hugh! Spent the night and then from there went out to see some whales. Awesome! May we prevail to hear a bit more from you about Port Angeles and this subject before you "go dark"? September is a long way from now. I'm so sorry to hear about your grandparents - a painful indication of the depth of suspicion and prejudice that existed at the time!

Mary Page, do you think we can apply the same measuring stick of 'greatness' to a generation as to a President?

"...contributions to the good of this nation appeared to me to have the greatest weight on the scales of time: i.e., the most long lasting contributions towards our health and well being as a nation."

Is my impression correct?

Robby

In answer to Nao Tagasuki's question (above), I receive the impression that most of you folks believe that we "have not come very far in the last 50 years in counting citizens by color."

Is my impression correct?

Robby

Robby

May I suggest, however, that we do our best to stick with the topic of racism in the military, especially as mentioned by Brokaw. If there seems to be a definite connection between addiction and racism in the military, then of course it is relevant.

I will suggest to Marcie, our Director of Education, that she consider a discussion group on addiction.

Robby

The lookout of the SHARK RIVER lifeboat station on the New Jersey coast, while scanning the ocean from his lookout tower on 28 February 1942 sighted what appeared to be a ship afire. A picket boat and motor lifeboat from Shark River and Manasquam were immediately sent out at top speed toward the burning vessel. On arrival at 0200 the picket boat found the Standard Oil Company tanker R.P. Resor, at 7,451 tons, afire from bow to stern. Apparently the ship had been hit above the water line with one or more shells which exploded, setting the oil on fire. Oil seemed to be pouring from the ship faster than the fire could burn it. Blazing oil had spread from the bow toward the south for a distance of 500 feet. The Coast Guard boat cruised as closely as possible to the burning vessel, when voices were heard crying for help. The smoke that arose was,at times, blinding; and the heat was so intense that the Coastguardsmen were almost overcome. Nevertheless,they brought their boat close to the inferno in an effort to reach the victims, who were threatened with envelopment by the flames,Suddenly there bobbed up before the Coast Guard boat a man so thickly covered with oil as to be almost unrecognizable as a human being. He must have been three times his normal weight, making it difficult to gain a firm hold on his slippery, oil soaked clothing. The crew was unable to pull him on board,

The heat was growing more intense with the passing seconds and the strength of the life savers was taxed to the limit. After much effort, the men succeded in tying a line under the armpits of the helpless victim and towed him from the white hot sides of the burning vessel.Paint on the side of the Coast Guard boat had begun to blister. The man, with his extra weight, towed under, the boat was stopped, and the four Coast Guardsmen finally pulled him on board. The lifeboat headed again toward the burning tanker to rescue additional victims. Another oil soaked man was found, and clinging desperately to a life raft. Two crew members went over the side into the sea of oil to rescue this man, who was too exhausted to get on board without help. Both survivors were stripped of their oil soaked clothing, wrapped in blankets, given coffee and otherwise made comfortable in the cabin. Although the station boat searched the rest of the night, no other members of the 49 man tanker crew were found. Excerpt's from "The U.S. Coast Guard in WW2" chapter "Rescues at sea"

This chapter mentions that Germans and Italians living in the US were brought in for questioning at the start of the war, but certainly they weren't confined to internment camps as were the Japanese....yet they were all potential enemies. No Executive Order...

ps. Ellen, Hank Nothing like a plateful of Dungeness crab! Mmmmmmmmm

Spooks: The Merchant Marine is another branch of the Federal Government to which we have been giving short shrift. Please share with us some of your memories concerning your time in the Merchant Marine. And, of course, due to your birth date Joan will add your name to the list above of Senior Net's Greatest.

Robby

Robby

  They respected those differences after going through many battles together in Africa. Sicily, Italy and France, and could distinquish the unique qualities that each soldier excelled in, because of their cultural backgrounds.

One particular soldier in my platoon was invaluable as a recon scout. point man on patrol, or as part of the Forward Observation Team, because of his keen Indian intuition, knowledge   and discernment. He was a native American from the Mohawk Tribe on the Akaswanee Reservation, which is situated on Cornwall Island, on the Canadian border.

His nickname was 'Smoky'. One of the many jokes the platoon related about Smoky ocurred during the "Battle of the Bulge", when no one knew where the front lines were, and Smoky was sent forward on recon by the Platoon Sgt. According to the Platoon Sgt., General George Patton came riding forward in his jeep. with his flags flying and got out and asked the Sgt. where the front line was.

The Sgt. went with the General ahead a short distance and they came upon Smoky on his stomach with his ear to the ground. The Sgt. says to the General, " Sir. do you see that Indian?" "Yeah," says the General. "Look," says the Sgt., "he's listening to the ground. He can hear things for miles in any direction." Just then the Indian looks up. "German Command car. green. " he says, "about two miles away. Have two officers, one Captain and one Major with pistols,two soldiers with rifles."

"Incredible!" says the General to the Sgt.. "This Indian knows how far away they are, how many officers,how many soldiers, what color their vehicle is, who is in the car. and their rank and how they are arned,Amazing!"

The Indian looks up and says, "Ran over me about a half hour ago. More coming. Better get out of the way."

As I got into your story, I realized you were pulling our legs. But, of course, some types of humor are funny because they are so close to the truth. Many of us now realize how important the Native Americans were as we moved toward victory.

Patrick also pointed out another aspect in the military that civilians need to understand. There was discrimination and there was "discrimination" -- referring in a good-natured way to our differences. One might say: "Ask the Polack to do it" knowing full well that the Polish-American in the platoon was the one most qualified to save lives. As most of the GIs were drafted, the Army was a true cross-section of the United States. We got to know each other on a very deep level and while differences often led to fights, at the same time deep affection and respect often surmounted the differences.

Robby

We are those "older Americans." Did we push that "stain" to the far corners of our memories? Were we discomforted about it? Were we eager to remember only the glories of those years?

Robby

A sad letter there from a daughter who reported that her father was on his wartime ship - the Pennmar when it went down. He died trying to save lives...left her mother with 6 children who received NO benefits or help from the government...

If we have yellow skin and live in Japan -- no problem. If we are black and live in a black neighborhood -- no problem. If we are of Italian heritage and live in an Italian neighborhood -- no problem. If we are poor and live in a time of Depression or are wealthy and live in an up-scale neighborhood, then life moves along. But put differences together and there is a clash (depending upon our family values) -- people with slant eyes living in a "white" nation; wealthy people living where they can be observed by the poor, foreign speaking people living next door to someone whose ancestor came over on the Mayflower -- then the hairs begin to bristle.

During the Great Depression, except for a very small minority, everyone was hurting. During the war, almost everyone was affected. The similarities were greater than the differences. We were all on the "same side." Perhaps "greatness" was thrust upon us. Now there is no one "out there" against whom we can fight. No one who is so different (Hitler's Fascism) that we can forget our own petty differences. Now the enemy is within us. Our dissimilarities now again become more evident and something within us has a need to fight.

During "our" generation, we fought those external differences. Now the present generation is fighting internal differences.

Do we need an enemy out there (terrorism, a sudden recession affecting almost everyone) for the present generation to become "great?"

Robby