Greatest Generation ~ Tom Brokaw ~ Part III ~ Nonf Export

Your posts emphasize the fact that there are no easy answers as to how things were following the war - that when we look back in time there are so many situations that don't fit into a Norman Rockwell, Life Magazine cover explanation of how it was. Every one has a different life experience! By the way, there is a terrific exhibition in DC right now of Norman Rockwell paintings...if it comes to your town, don't miss it! Full of surprises!

Robby's post about the soldier/citizens returning home, now citizen/soldiers....stirs the imagination. I wish you could find the book, While You Were Away, Robby! Would love to hear the advice you were given as you attempted to take your place in society.

What changes do you remember most when you returned? I spoke to a Vietnam Vet recently who told me that when he came home and heard the song, Cecilia on the radio, he really understood that radical changes had taken place while he was gone. That one song stands out in his memory as a symbol of change!

For some reason, I had imagined that there was an immediate period of prosperity in the country as soon as the war ended! Dumb! Of course most of you were returning to the same or worse economic situations you had left behind. You had a lot of catching up to do! And those with no man in the house, you were not part of the economic boom when it did come!

Norm, Theron, I was like you - never understanding the household economics. No one really had a lot, everyone had sacrificed, so that the general excitement prevailed without comparing what everyone else had or had not. I guess what I'm saying, there didn't seem to be a sharp division between the haves and the have nots in my small corner of the world.

Mal, I know that times were tough for many. My heart breaks for a childhood that can never be returned to you. That's why we can't make general statements that describe every situation. But millions of soldiers returning at once to take their place in rebuilding the country did affect a large part of the population and that cannot be overlooked now.

Joan, it's a far, far better world now than it was for my poor mother in the '30's. Every time I begin to feel broke or the slightest bit sorry for myself, I think of her and others like her and realize how much we have today, thanks to the valiant men and women who won World War II for us.

I graduated from Maritime academy when I was 16. My father had signed for me. I did not get into the war till '44 My first ship was the hospital ship the Hope that was tied up in New York. All chiefs no indians. I prefer the cargo ships such as the Liberty and Victory ships have sailed on both. In addition I have sailed on the Esso Charlston a coast wise tanker. People used to go to the beaches and watch the German subs blow up the coast wise ships.

One trip on that tanker I saw two men so sick they actually turned green and wanted to die. I don't blame them. The ship was empty and men were down in the hold cleaning out the shale. The smell of oil was over powering. Add to that the slow sea swell that made the ship go up and down at a slow pace and then add a fog horn off in the distance. As I write this I can almost feel the ship slowly going up and down and the for horn moaning off in the distance. I was lucky I was sailing as an assistant pump man. I ran around turning pumps on and off. Those poor guys down in the hold had it rough.

One time on a victory ship heading toward Belgium the fireman got drunk and let the water out of the boiler. Ka Boom! Blew up the boiler. I am glad it was a victory ship and not a liberty. The victory ships had two boilers. So we limped into Antwerp where we unloaded our cargo.

Unfortunately they did not have the facilities to repair our ship so off to Rotterdam Holland we went for repairs. Yes they still wore wooden shoes. Some more bad luck. I pulled the night watch which meant I tried to sleep during the day. Forget it. Between the wooden shoes on a steel ship and the rivit guns banging on steel I found a place on shore where I stayed for a week. In them days I was young and single and was learning all about life. I almost married a girl from Belgium.

However, my mother, whose parents came from Sweden decided that I wanted to marry it would have to be a Swedish girl. Sorry mom. I married a girls of English descent. Her father came from England and her mother was Irish.

My relatives on my fathers side came from England about 1640. My uncle was a retread. He was in the Navy during both wars. WW1 & 2. He tried to get me in the Navy but the Navy turned me down because I was color blind (blue/green). The Merchant Marine was the next best thing.

There were still hostilities going on when I was in Manila. The Hukapauts would come down and raid the villages. The first building that was being rebuilt in Manila was a movie house. Hostilities had ceased in Minala but there were a lot of sunken ships in the harbour of which we had dodge. All the buildings were destroyed and the city was just begining to get itself together.

A friend took me on a trip to the outskirts to a place called Wa Wa Dam. It was a power generating plant up in the mountains. I saw where the Japs had hidden in the caves and fired down on our troops. I saw a field covered with human skeletons. What a battle must have gone on.

When not on a tug boat I drove a truck to Clark Field carrying high octane gasoline. Some one opened up with a machine gun. The truck went one way I went another. It took me three days to get back to Manila. So much for the Phillipines.

I was home for a while and decided I would enlist in the army. I made PFC before I was out of basic training as they considered my training at the academy. I started to have a problem with my jaw and spent some time in the hospital. If I yawned my jaw would dislocate.

I had learned to operate commercial motion picture projects while at the academy so I got a job as a post projectionest. I ran the post theater. Till I got a medical discharge (honary) from the army because of my jaw problem. So there you have the story.

I come from a poor family. My father worked in a soap factory. he made enough money to support us but that was about it. As a young person I had many different jobs tying to find out what i was suited for. Being in the merchant Marine taught me an awfull lot about life. When I finally settled down I took a course in electronics under the GI Bill. The rest is history.

Spooks:

What did you do in your spare time?

Robby

Chase women of course.

Spooks:

As if I didn't know!!

Robby

Just to set the record straight - We were NOT "poor folks". If anyone said different in my mothers presence, they were in for some serious retribution. One winter my Dad was sick and unable to work for about 4 months. The County Welfare Officer came to see if there was anything they could do to help. My mother chased him off the porch with her broom! I learned, many years later, that he went to the corner store and arranged to have the shopkeeper tell my mother that the "Church People" were helping out.
Mostly we lived on a farm and we had meat, milk, eggs and vegetables that we raised. During the war the thing I remember most about the "kitchen economics" was that we had to not use sugar on our cereal in the morning. We could, however have Maple Syrup as that came from the farm.
Basicly we were "Hill Folks" not "Poor Folks". Robby, living in Preble, NY, you must have met some families like that.

Theron

Where is Preble, N.Y. My grandparents are mountain people from Moriah, N.Y.

Theron: I lived in Preble after the war but the type of farmer-folk (upstanding, proud - in the good sense, self-sufficient, helpful, family-oriented) still existed. They were mainly dairy farmers in that area and were having hard times selling their milk at a profitable price.

Spooks: If you take Rt. 81 straight south from Syracuse, you arrive in Preble. It is right next to Tully Mountain which is a medium-size ski resort. If you take Rt 81 straight south from Preble, you arrive in Cortland. In other words, Preble is almost exactly half way between Syracuse and Cortland.

Robby

I agree with Spooks re the Merchant Marine. My first real boy friend was a young radio officer on a British merchant ship that crossed the Atlantic many times and also went to Greenland (he brought me back some nice nylons from there). Had some stories to tell me. Went on board his ship only once when it was anchored in the Firth of Clyde where I was stationed. I can still see myself trying to get up the rope ladder with everyone looking on. Luckily I had dressed with my navy long pants and not the navy suit I generally wore. In August '45, I was in Harwich at the naval base - married since July 14. My husband had gone back to Germany thinking he was going on to Japan. After the bombs ended the war, he went back to the U.S. in the November and I was demobbed in September (the British Navy let the married women leave first) and then waiting until February '46 for a war bride ship.

Nylons from GREENLAND??!!

Robby

Moriah is much further north. We actually lived in Port Henry on Lake Champlain and I worked in the mines at Mineville.

Spooks - I used to go near Moriah on my way to an AT&T repeater station at Reynoldstown.

Theron

One of the things I have been doing as part of my Korean War web page is to read and transcribe the daily letters I wrote home to my wife during the Korean War. I was not married during WWII and I'm sure none of the letters to and from any of the several girl friends I wrote to then still exist (just as well).

I had been married a year at the time of the Korean War, marrying a coed I discovered while using my GI bill to attend the University of Minnesota. We are approcahing our 51st wedding anniversary so the choice (whoever made it) seems (so far at least) to have been one conducive to a long, and rewarding relationship.

 
                 Maggie 

           Turning 
           With easy grace 
           You glanced back, charming me. 
           Why do I remember this now, 
           My love.

That things have worked out so well amazes me after reading the letters- What a standard 1950's Male Chauvinist Pig I was then (probably not over it yet).

But that is not the point of this post. I read with interest the point that the war changed the men and women who were affected by it. At one point in the letters as I was preparing to return home I wrote a long letter describing what I thought then were some of the changes that had happened to me during my experience in Korea (never stopping to consider what changes might have happened to her).

One of the things I did note was that there were, indeed, soft edges that had hardened and these would be seen in a number of ways, a more cynical attitude, a different language (she says I still haven't gotten over that), and a stronger sense of self-reliance.

Whatever- the honeymoon lamp was still lighted when I returned and that helped to smooth the readjustment period which is, of course, still in progress.

Jim:

There are some very beautiful phrases in your letter (in addition to the Haiku) but I won't corrupt their beauty by repeating them. The readers can see for themselves.

In 1950 practically every veteran was a "male chauvinist pig." We were (and are) strongly influenced by our environment.

Robby

Jim and Robby, your self-evaluations of past chauvinism are so welcome to hear and make it infinitely easier to hear the next 200 who frown and say, who me?

Betty - Who me? (grin) I guess I have to admit to being one of the Macho men also. I never felt it was a negative thing, and certainly didn't mean it that way. Which probably makes me twice as macho.

We are getting into a male-female thing here but I guess it does relate to what was going on right after WWII. We men had two influences --

1 - The prior to the war influence in which it was accepted by "society in general" that the man was the master of the household, and
2 - The military influence in which a "man" was a "doer" -- he made things happen, he took charge.

I spoke in an earlier posting how difficult it was for the citizen/soldier to become a "kinder-gentler" (excuse the political inference!!) male citizen -- especially with Rosie the Riveter implying that we were not as important or needed as we thought. It was, in effect, a slap in the face (even if subconsciously) and a wake-up call that it was time for us to "take over."

What did we know? We knew only what war and prior-to-war experiences had taught us. Of course there were a million Machos all over the place!! What did you expect? And so there were thousands of Macho-Rosie clashes and thousands of divorces. In many ways after-war was more difficult than during war.

Robby

Foley, what is nylon anyway? Thought you'd be receiving wooly tights from Greenland! I can see you too, swinging on the rope ladder to the delight of all the Merchant Marines watching you! Would like to hear more about the "war bride ship"??? There are some stories there, I imagine? Did you have an idea of what life would be like in the US with your new hubby? How did the adjustment period go???

HAHAHA!Jim from the verse you write, forgive me, but a poetic chauvinist pig seems oxymoronic in your case!

I can understand what you "boys" are describing...your rough edges after your time abroad. It seems that it must have been easier for the single guys to come home and slowly readjust to cilvilian life, than it was for those with a wife and family waiting for the guy that went away to return to resume life the way it was. There were lots of marriages right before, during and at the end of the war. To me, it is amazing that so many marriages survived! Far more survived, 6-1 we are told - It couldn't have been easy on anyone...including the kids!

Tom Brokaw's wife, Meredith describes her experience in this chapter. She saw her father only once in the five years he was away, living with her mother and grandparents. "He returned home to find a five-year-old stranger as his daughter." As a result their relationship evolved slowly...although by the time she was an adult, they became close.

It seems that those returning home with the "rough edges" described here, would naturally have a hard time feeling comfortable with little ones....

I have many many times said I was so pleased that I was single during the war. Not only because of the difficult acculturation after the war but because of the thoughts that go through a married man's mind while he is thousands of miles and years away from his wife. Not every Section 8 came from battle experiences.

Robby

Of the 8 or 10 "drugstore cowboys" that I misspent my teen age years with, I was the last one to be discharged from the Army in Febr. 1945. The "gang" throught a party for me in "Charlies Blue Room", a local gin mill that I wasn't eliglble to even enter prior to my entering the service. We had a ball swapping stories that night and impressing the ladies in attendance. My oldest friend, from age 12 on, as always, had a pretty lady as his companion that night and he quietly mentioned to her that they should find a date for " good old Bern" And so she arranged a blind date with her friend June for the next night. I found myself sitting next to the most charming, pretty girl that I had been remotely close to in years. I was dazzled and still am after 53 years of marriage. This was a great start to a new life. A second chance at living.

Losalbern:

Now that is romantic!!

Joan - re the war bride ships, I'll tell more in a few weeks. Off to Colorado to visit a son and family in the Rockies for a few weeks. Having a terrible weekend with torrential rains in northern New Jersey, we made every TV channel in the N.Y. area. Lakes and rivers overflowed, roads impassable, cellars flooded, a real mess. I'm lucky living in a condo complex on high ground. Right by Lake Hopatcong, in Jefferson Township.

Foley - During my years in New Jersey, I spent many a summer day at Lake Hopatcong. And we took Girl Scout troops camping to the area near Sparta where there also seems to be a major disaster.

This is such a small world, Jeanne! I now just read in the Washington Post about the flooding...my first boyfriend lived in Neptune (Jerry Hopper, wherever you are!) and I spent summers at Lake Hopatcong...1940's and 50's at my grandmother's place in Mt. Arlington, right up the road from the post office!

Foley, we'll be waiting to hear about the crossing on the war brides' ship and all that you dreamed and talked about with other shipmates! The image of a shipful of brides!!!!

Losalbern, I agree, that is romantic! Would love to hear more about your secret for such a long and happy marriage, and how the romance survived marriage!!!

In this chapter Dorothy Cavin tells of her scrapbook from the World War II years. In 1987 her sister found it and gave it to her.......and there the memories of her lost love all came back to her. She had long forgotten the scrapbook... In it she found a poem from Daphne her Raymond had carried in his pocket the day he was killed. The paper on which it is written is stained with the blood of his mortal wounds:

      When You Come Home

When you come home once more to me, It is unlikely, dear, that I shall be Articulate, the words I've wanted so To say, I'll try in vain to speak, I know I shall reach blindly for you, stricken dumb With swift and aching joy when you have come, Or if my tongue find utterance at all, It will be commonplace and trivial.

But you will understand. And, oh, once more I'll feel your hand laid lightly on my hand As was your wont, smoothing it again And yet again. You'll lift my face and then We shall forget all else. You'll hold me fast When you come home, come home to me at last.

He never made it home.

I'm reading of the zillions of letters between these young lovers, many filled with poetry - and am beginning to feel the desparate separation and what this mail must have meant to these young people. How about it? Any old scrap books? So many long-forgotten details are hidden there. Letters?

Remember those cabinet table radios? I had forgotten all about ours until I read about them in this chapter. We used to sit around it and listen for news... Ours was a drum-like affair on legs. I just called my stepmother, who is moving next month, and yes, she has it, and yes I can have it...she's not sure if it works anymore. I'm going to Pittsburgh to get it at the end of the month. Don't ask what I'll do with it...or where I'll put it. But it will be my memento of this discussion!!!

Somewhere in the book, T.B. stated how amazed he was after interviewing countless G.I.s of WWII that so few divorces occurred in their marriages; and often when he asked about their children they were saddened by the fact that many had been divorced.

From the recent posts, so many of you have expressed enduring love for over 50+ years. My husband, a Navy veteran, and I are celebrating our 50th anniversary this year and often we've wondered how it has happened that we've been married so long (the years have gone so fast) and somehow we've survived rough storms in our time together - the death of our son for one. Needless to say it was a traumatic experience and we could not find a way to console each other - each has to survive some things alone.

Robby, I am not sure that prior to WWII I would agree that the man was the "master of the household" - a better expression and one I remember so well from that time is the "man is the breadwinner." Ladies, what are your opinions on this?

I'm still puzzled as to why so many marriages of WWII have survived? There must be answers - perhaps if there are we could help the young people today survive their hardships and make marriage work. What is the divorce rate today - one in two?

Re: divorces in post-WWII time --

1 - People who divorced in those days usually didn't talk about it, especially to interviewers.
2 - Many couples who didn't want to stay together did so because there was a stigma in those days regarding divorce.

Robby

Ella, you ask important questions, but we need you to put on that thinking cap to figure out how you two made it to your Golden Anniversary! (Congratulations! That took work. I know!)

From the US Census Bureau and the National Marriage Project statistics - your generation married at a younger age than the preceding or the following generations and yet you made your relationships work! How? Divorce was obvious not the solution to differences at the rate it is today. There was something about the Depression and the War Years that made you stick together?

From National Marriage Project based on US Bureau of Statistics:

The increase in divorce, shown by the trend reported in Figure 5, probably has elicited more concern and discussion than any other family-related trend in the United States. Although the long-term trend in divorce has been upward since colonial times, the divorce rate was level for about two decades after World War II during the period of high fertility known as the baby boom.
By the middle of the 1960s, however, the incidence of divorce started to increase and it more than doubled over the next fifteen years to reach an historical high point in the early 1980s. Since then the divorce rate has modestly declined, a trend described by many experts as "leveling off at a high level." The decline in the 1980s may be attributable partly to compositional changes in the population, for example the aging of the baby boomers and a decrease in the number of people of marriageable age. The continuing decline in the 1990s, however, apparently represents a slight increase in marital stability.

It is somewhat heartening to know that the divorce rate has declined a bit, isn't it?

We have been together for 52 years because we can communicate. We can talk out our problems. It is give and take. I give..she takes. Not realy. Marriage is a 50/50 deal and a lot of young folks don't relize that. Then there are the arguments over money and things like that. Young people don't seem to be able to communicate their feelings for each other after the honeymoon. Just my thoughts.

Before 1960, or thereabouts, it was much more difficult to get a divorce, in many states. When faced with the legalities, and sometimes the humiliations, of actually getting a divorce, many couples stayed together and eventually worked thru their problems. Others, as was mentioned, stayed together "for the sake of the children", which was often not the best solution. The "no fault" divorce is what has upped the divorce rate, in my opinion. There is not much incentive to stay married, especially when young people go into marriage saying, "If it doesn't work out, I'll just get a divorce." That thought never occurred to me. I married for life...and lasted a wonderfully long time, until his death just before our 40th anniversary.

Also, keep in mind that most people stay married. When you hear, "Half of all marriages end in divorce," or some such high numbers, those statistics are of new marriages. To oversimplify---say there are 100,000 married couples in a city. During a year, 2,000 couples get married. Total now is 102,000. Half those new marriages end in divorce---1,000. Total is now 101,000. Think about it. If the statistics referred to half of the existing marriages, then half of the city's population would divorce that year. (Headlines) That would be half of everyone you know in your church, your job, your neighborhood, your extended family. A good way to think of the divorce rate is to think of your experiences at work or in your extended family. A few people in your department, or one cousin and a sister.

Researchers try all the time to get a clearer picture on the trends of marriage/divorce rates. As so much of our culture has changed so drastically over the last 100 years (some good, some bad), it's very difficult to say definitively what factors affected divorce rates and in what order.

We're usually quicker to list the negative influences on marriage, so I'll name a few of the good reasons we divorce. Women can picture themselves working. Unmarried women are no longer called spinsters or carry the shame of "divorced woman." The work world accepts women to a greater extent. The general stigma of divorce has all but disappeared. The effect of a chaotic home on children's lives is better known. Progress of battered women leaving batterers is slow, but is increasing. Women now have a few models of women whose lives improved with divorce. When my mother might have divorced, there were virtually no models to follow. Strangely enough, I think that increased self-esteem of both men and women have contributed to a feeling of wanting a deeper, more meaningful life---including a good marriage. Fewer men and women think, "I'm stuck in this loveless existence and there's nothing I can do." People are living much longer, so marriages are tested for longevity in a real sense. When we speak of divorce rates in the 1930s, for example, we have to consider life span, economics, male and female roles, etc. (It's only recently that we think of both men and women being responsible for the happiness in a marriage; it was previously the woman's domain to take care of the emotional life of the marriage and it was the woman we blamed if things went wrong---such as his infidelities.)

Some of what I listed have counterparts that are not healthy and are not good reasons to give up on a committed relationship, but I'll leave those to be listed by others.

Betty -- What a great post! Yes, there are always many factors for these things, and it is hard to tell which came first. I think all of the factors you mentioned are valid.

But I can think of a couple of things that have helped June's and my marriage. At the end of our first date, I knew that I wanted to see this girl as often as possible and I asked her for a date the next day. "Sure," she responded, "you can take me to church in the morning." I jumped at the chance and I have been taking her to church ever since. She made a Christian our of me, one day at a time. (Never underestimate the power of a good woman.) Just a few weeks after our marriage, Household Finance sent us an invitation to try out for one year their method of living on a budget. We thought, "why not!" and so we did that. We had our receipe box filled with small envelopes each one labeled rent, food, clothing, etc., where we laboriously allocated our meager funds and thought it was almost fun. Well, methods have changed over the years but we still operate on a monthly budget and it is so ingrained now I dont think we could get along without one. Never once in 53 years of a happy marriage have we had a fight over money! Some serious discussions, perhaps. I recall that it took me a long while to realize that a woman required a larger clothing budget than a man does. But we have read where money problems plague many marriages. It hasn't happened to us and I thank good old Household Finance for getting us started.

Losalbern, I'll bet more people would still be married if not for the fights over money---which, let's face it, are about values, roles, negotiation, how organized to be and other things, probably. I also love how you speak of marriage. Sometimes I think I hear, in how people speak about marriage, an implicit decision that was reached somewhere along the way that this marriage will always be in place. It's a different sound than the all powerful in-loveness heard at the first of a marriage.

My grandparents had a wonderful marriage. I asked my grandmother once if she ever thought of leaving him. In her quiet, musical, Christian-woman voice, she said no, never, but she thought of killing him one time.

Betty, what a Grandmother! I'll bet I would love her too!

Joan. Relating to post#6 Anchorage-Sasebo, Japan: The sea lane to home had a bit longer to run. After Sasebo,returned to Philipines and loaded up with cargo for Kure, Japan, joined convoy with U.S.S. Barnwell. Arrived in Hiro Wan, Honshu, Japan on Oct. 23rd and began unloading operations, harbor area was crowded with the sunken remains of Japapnese battlewagon and aircraft carrier. City was a mass of rubble, spent very little time ashore

U.S. Naval Officers and men,with mail from F.P.O. in Honshu brought on board for transportation to U.S. Departed Hiro-Wan 28th Oct. proceeded along swept channel of the Inland sea. 3rd Nov we crossed the I.D.L. so we repeated Saturday, our very own "long week-end" 5th Nov. brought the news thay our destination had been changed from San Francisco to Portland, Oregon. Crew stopped singing "California here I come" and started asking where is Portland, Oregon? as a kid from Boston the only Portland I knew about was in Maine

We sighted land at 0800 on 10th Nov, and at 0845 we were abeam the Columbia river lightship,Pilot on board and at 0900 we were standing up the Columbia river entrance channel, stopped alongside Channel Buoy #23, took on new Pilot, passed under the Longview bridge and at 1740 tied up to Albena Sea Wall.

You asked when I realized the war was over? I think this was the time it really hit, as I looked on the dock on 11th Nov and saw delivery trucks from Arden Farms, Portland, Oregon and Langendorf United Bakery sitting there. this was home, this was America! 13th Nov brought milk from Medo-Sweet Dairy and Pie's from Crispi Pie Shop, life was getting sweeter and sweeter.

Personnel changes, boats transferred to Port Director and LIBERTY! Portland was a pleasant surprise with great restaurants,dances to attend,and beautiful gals to make it all perfect. Two weeks went fast and on the 28th of Nov at 0700 we were standing down the Williamette to the Columbia and on to San Francisco. I was getting closer and closer to home with every turn of the screw!

Passed under the "Golden Gate" 30th Nov, at 0757, passed under "Oakland Bay Bridge" at 0822, were greeted by the large flowered "Welcome Home" on Alcatraz Island. We tied up at the Alameda Naval base. I shall be back with the next segment on my voyage home to Boston as soon as possible, I bet you can hardly wait!

Interesting comments on the divorce rates and new marriages, Betty! You've begun to clear up the first part of the puzzle. This is what has confused me...couples are going into first marriages much later in life than previously...careers the main reason. You'd think they would be more mature, financially better off, clearer about expectations etc. Why don't these marriages last longer than those of the World War II generation...they were the youngest couples in modern history, often very short courtships - whrilwind romances, long separations! Yet their marriages have had a much higher success rate!

Ella, dear - it is impossible to imagine the grief you both faced. The fact that you faced it "alone, but together" is an indication that you each retained your own INDIVIDUALITY and perhaps that is one of the secrets for a lasting marriage?

Spooks, COMMUNICATION! 50/50 (you give, she takes!) You funny man! I'll bet a SENSE OF HUMOR comes into play in your house more often than not!!!

The DIFFICULTY OF GETTING A DIVORCE, Katie! And "eventually things worked out and you got past the problems... "

Losalbern ~ COMMUNICATION and PARTNERS..Good commercial for the Household Finance Company...are they still in business?

And as Betty picked up - the IMPLICIT DECISION THAT YOUR MARRIAGE WOULD ALWAYS BE IN PLACE - I'm beginning to think that that is the main ingredient here!

Betty's grandmother...(in her "quiet musical, Christian-woman voice") expressed the same sentiment that Peggy Assenzio laughingly states in Greatest Generation - she and John married a month after Pearl Harbor, he was 23, she was just 21:

"When my friends ask whether I ever considered divorce I remind them of the old saying, we've thought of killing each other, but divorce? Never!"

The Assenzios haven't had an easy time of it - John still has nightmares (post-traumatic shock?), but this has kept them close, he says.

Let's hear more! I think we're getting somewhere!

About half a platoon of us were stationed at a coast artillery unit, in a small village perhaps 20 miles from Wakayama, Honshu . Our immediate task was to destroy the usefulness of these huge gun emplacemnts that had our very landing site as their field of fire. We utilized local labor to muscle the big heavy shells around and so we had some decent rapport with these folk. One evening my buddy and I decided to walk the mile or so to the local village just for kicks. It was dusk as we walked down the dusty road chatting about the days effort when suddenly we were startled by this childish voice saying to us "Where are you going, GI Joes?" We were astounded to hear this coming from a girl of about 12 years of age standing at her front gate. "Where did you learn to speak such good English?", we replied in awe. " In San Francisco, where I was born", she replied

Oh my, there's a story there! You wonder at what age the little girl found herself in Japan?!

Dunmore, you are taking the long way home! I feel as if I'm right there with you! Robby mentioned earlier the buffers between battlefront and homefront that made the re-entry to civilian life easier! Yes! You're right! Can hardly wait to hear of your triumphant entry into Boston!!!

Would be really interested to hear about all of your first days home....

I'm thinking like a mama right now, and trying to imagine what it would be like having one of my boys walk up the lane to the back door after having been away.....oh my.

We three were talking in earnest when we were joined by her parents who invited us in for a chat. It turned out that the Hashimoto family had a mom and pop grocery store in San Francisco for many years. Pop became heir to two properties, one in Tokoyo and this home. They decided to sell the store and go live in Japan as people of means. But there was a problem: Their 14 year old daughter absolutely refused to go. So they left her with friends and hoped that she would change her mind with the passage of time . Then the war broke out and all communications were lost. The Hashimotos were bombed out of the home in Tokoyo and felt fortunate to have the smaller home in this village to fall back on. "But " complained Pop, "it is old and drafty and we dont have adequate blankets for the winters cold." It just so happened that we were guarding a warehouse full of Japanese military supplies so my buddy and I "liberated " as many as we could sneak past the guard with that night. The Hashimotos were delighted. Then I asked Mrs Hashimoto to give me her daughter's address and before "lights out" I wrote her a letter and told her that her parents were ok and that she could write them via my APO. And she did. I got more than polite bows when I delivered that first letter. I got hugged! We were able to do that for several weeks until our unit shipped out to another job.

I skipped to here as I wanted to post what the South Bend Tribune has said today on this,

Area Briefs LANSING State reps collecting veterans' stories State representatives Cameron S. Brown, R-Sturgis, and Charles LaSata, R-St. Joseph, are among Republican House members collecting Michigan veterans' stories. The purpose of the project is to preserve the stories of all veterans, especially the few remaining veterans of World War I and the aging veterans of World War II. "Future generations will be able to better appreciate the sacrifice made by veterans to preserve our liberty," Brown said in a statement. The project was inspired by Tom Brokaw's book "The Greatest Generation," which included personal stories of dozens of World War II

Ginger

Will catch up when I can as so far have read and enjoyed the posts.

Ginger

I literally lived for the day I would 'make it' back home, a day to day existance. The '30-day leave' stateside upon return was a disaster. I felt alienated, didn't belong, couldn't relate to the seemingly undisturbed life back here, angry and couldn't wait to get back into the safety of the service - so I left early. Seven months later after visits to Lake Lure,NC and St Pete,Fla., a second leave wasn't so bad. Yet on discharge, July '45, I couldn't think of resuming studies for my degree and just hung around with other confused returning vets. It was the gentle, careful parental guidance that 'it was time to move on' that did change things. I did get my degree, opened an Optometry practice Dec '47 and retired Dec '87.

It couldn't have been easy for the families of returning men as they couldn't understand us - or we, them. Am sure many of us owe our future to their devotion.

I am caught up on your posts and thank all of you for them.

I was in the Normandy invasion when I was 20 yrs old from there up to battle of huertgenforest, and then the battle of the bulge. we crossed the Rhine using the Rimagen bridge that had been captured we took over a fully staffedgerman hospital in Linz just across the Rhine we were in Thuringia when the war came to an end I would sure like to find out what happened to our money we were payed in french francs before we left Englandat the rate of 4 to one dollar the exchange rate was about 25 to one I would sure like to know my email is eldontaylor@msn.com snail mail is E.L.Taylor 601 okanoganave apt 48a wenatchee Wa 98801ph#509 662 9285

He sits and stares with tortured eyes
At things I cannot see,
But I know the look and I've seen the tears;
For years they've haunted me.

He sees his buddies he left one day,
Dead and buried in Korean clay.
Some were wounded and maimed for life;
He wonders why he survived their plight;

"Stroud, don't die," he cries from his dream;
From a nightmare so real he has to scream.
I wake him from his troubled sleep,
And comfort him while he sits and weeps.

I've seen this happen night after night
And dodged his flailing arms in fright.
But knowing I've got to free him fast
From the horrors of his wartime past.

The war he fights each day and night,
His mind is filled with awful sights.
There is no hope for peace at all,
Until God makes His final call.

Written for my husband about 3 A.M. He had just went to sleep after a terrible night of nightmares and flashbacks.

By the way, we've been married 41 years and love each other dearly.

Kathy

Kathy, we already knew what you wrote in your last sentence. It's obvious.

Kathy:

A most beautiful poem and a reminder that the aftermaths of war visit veterans' families as well.

Robby

Kathy, you are among friends. Your beloved is clearly loved and you must surely know how much he loves and depends on you. Yoursis a love story. And a stark reminder that for many, the war experience is not left in the past, but something to be lived with on a daily, oh, and a nightly basis.

Tom Brokaw mentions the concept of duty, instilled in war-time as being one of the ingredients for the longevity of the 40's marriages...but in your case, it is clearly more than that!

What do you all think? How much did the military training and values affect the marriages of these young soldiers?

E.L. Taylor! You are WELCOME! here!

At 20, you were on the beach at Normandy and then went on to the Battle of the Bulge!!!! This is amazing! You are so fortunate to be here, forgive me if I am over-reacting to this information, rather than the fact that you lost your wallet! Please explain that and tell more! It's probably more serious than it sounds after your description of what you had been through! Yours is an important story for the history books and we'd love to ask you a zillion questions!!!!!!!!

Ginger, the Michigan project is interesting and important! Thanks for sharing that with us! Is there some way you can get in touch with them and tell them of this discussion?

Suntaug, yours is an important part of the real story...the homecomings were not always "triumphant". Your anger and confusion at the undisturbed lives at home, when you had come from the reality of war is understandable and must have been the reaction of countless returnees!

One of the Veteran's wives who participates in this discussion, told me that her husband came home to no particular welcome, looked for a job and worked his way back into civilization with no encouragement or help from anyone. I've got a feeling that a lot more of you came home in this way, than Life Magazine ever portrayed at the time.....

I'm happy for you, Sun, that you had the gentle parental proddings...

Waiting for more of Losalbern's first days back in Boston...........

Sorry, Joan, I didn't return home to Boston. My parents home was Omaha and that is where I grew up and returned to. But after all the hoopla of renewing old friendships and trying to encourage the newest one ( this pretty little girl named June) I left after three weeks for Los Angeles to enlist the services of an eye surgeon in Beverly Hills. Three surgeries and nine months later I went back to June and from that point on we began our life together. But those nine months in L.A. weren't entirely wasted because my relatives out there were still celebrating the end of the war and believe me I joined in. Throughout those nine months I wrote June some of the best letters I had ever written in my entire life and tried desperately to keep our flame going. So my transition from military to civies was fairly easy compared to some guys. You see, I had a head start.. The Army and I had one thing in common; neither one thought very much of the other. I always was a civilian at heart.

I would guess that 99.9% of the WWII soldiers were civilians at heart. There was always a small core of soldiers in the Army who had been in the Service during peace time and they were called "Regular Army." They had special Service numbers which were different from ours which began usually with "1" or "3." Many of us "looked down" on the "standing Army" soldiers feeling (not necessarily true) that they hadn't been good for anything else. Their length of service was for specific terms. Ours was for "duration plus 6 months."

Robby

Robby, My transition from soldier to civilian was sought after eagerly as a second chance at life that could have slipped away so easily had the war not ended when it did. I have always been grateful to have been spared combat and I can attempt to understand the pain so many great guys took home with them. I thought Kathy Chrisley's poem about her suffering husband was both loving and sobering. I have a dear friend reliving those terrible memories of torture and neglect in a Japanese POW camp. The war has not really ended for all these great guys. They are still in transition. God bless them all.

Robert my Army serial number begins with RA-111...That was during the latter part of the war not in peace time. The length of service was 3 years.

Spooks: I knew that the term of enlistment for the Regular Army (RA) was for a specific period but I wasn't sure just how long. I realized, of course, that even those in the Regular Army could not apply for discharge while the war was on.

As you were part of the peacetime army and not a temporary citizen-soldier like most of us, perhaps you can share what you saw as some of the differences if, indeed, you saw any.

Robby

Joan I have sent them a clickable in email so hope they join here. If they do not they will get another clickable in email with a very special message from me as I do think they need to come here.

Love Ginger

Joan, a postscript to our conversation as to why marriages in our generation have endured and, of course, it is just my opinion, not one of sociologists or pschologists, etc. We wives had never heard of phrases such as "male chauvinism" or "feminist movement." And we never considered that we toiled with no pay, etc. My marriage was a partnership in every sense of the word - we disagreed often, talked it out until a compromise was reached as in any corporate boardroom.

It was by CHOICE that my friends and I were housewives. Fortunately, we could afford to stay home, but sacrifice of many things that young couples take for granted made that possible. We never ate at a restaurant unless it was a very special occasion, we passed clothes around to others when our children outgrew them. Buying a couch was a HUGE DECISION and it was usually a Christmas present to each other.

We were not young when we were married, according to the standards of the day. I was 23, my husband 26, and we didn't have children until I was 26 and 30. We had financial goals and celebrated when we reached them.

In disbelief, I listened to a young dental hygenist tell me yesterday that she would be bored staying at home with her 6-month-old baby! What beautiful images she is missing - memories of her baby trying to catch a sunbeam in his little fist, trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and finally happy to get it right, precious memories!

I have never been happier in my life as when I could take off the yoke of the work world - and be free. To take my children wading in a nearby creek on a hot day, ride to the country and looking at farm houses, naming horses and laughing when we got lost! Coffe club on Thursday mornings with other housewifes, drinking coffee, eating rolls and smoking, yes, that too. A support group to try to understand our children better.

Will the career women of today have those memories? Not likely!

I have those memories, too, and they're wonderful, but from the beginning I wanted more than staying home taking care of children, my husband and doing laundry, cooking, washing floors on my hands and knees and cleaning house. I was a classically trained musician who had appeared in numerous concerts and recitals. I was a professional jazz musician, had three radio shows of my own and did TV appearances. Paintings of mine had appeared in art galleries. I could read in four different languages. I had a fine education, and the people who raised me had convinced me early that I should use my brains and my talent. For 27 years I used neither, except in this way: There was not a day that went by that I was not able to squeeze in time to write.

It was true that I chose marriage, but I had no idea when I did that I would have to sacrifice such a big part of what I am.

Mal

So here's the scene---three fraternity guys are having breakfast rolls and coffee on a Sunday morning. They are discussing future plans. "I don't know," says the first guy, "After I graduate, I just want to work until I find a good woman, then after our first child is born, I may want to stay home a year or two."

"You're kidding," says the second guy. "You would ruin your career chances right off the bat. Me? I'm not having kids until I'm in my 30s. By then, I'll have shown everyone how serious I am about a career. Then, I'll stay home until my youngest is in first grade, then in my mid 40s, I'll go back to work."

The third guy can't believe his ears. "You guys are crazy. I'm gonna have kids and keep working. My wife may not like it, but that's her problem. Why should she be the only one who doesn't have to stop to take care of little kids? Why is it only up to me to have a career or not have a career. Why should she assume it is only my problem? It's not fair that women's careers comes first, no matter what. I'm gonna work and have kids and manage just fine."

_____________________________________________________

Men are never asked if having children or having a career comes first.

Ella! Amen sister, I intend to show your posting to June! You are two of a kind. June loved being a homemaker Mom. Even so, when our youngest was 14 or 15 she took a part time job as a secretary to an architect's firm and loved that too because of the daily interface with a wide variety of professional people. She was a "mom" there too and widely admired because of her "people" skills. The experience expanded her outlook on the "real" world of commerce. Mal , you are so fortunate to have talent. A jazz musician! wow! One of my favorite things to do is to listen to one of my Errol Garner CDs while fishing aound on the net. What a genius he was!

Genius he was, losalbern, along with a lot of other jazz musicians I could name, female and male.

Arthritis in my hands has done a job on my classical piano playing, but I can still pound out some pretty darned good Dixieland and sort of fake but passable Boogie Woogie and modern jazz beat. Sad to say, my soprano has gone to the cellar, and my voice is a very torchy Marlene Dietrich.

However, I don't waste time crying about that. I am finishing up my ninth novel right now, and after being in this discussion, I figure I have enough material to make the tenth one I write a novel about World War II. That is to say, after I finish the last two chapters of another one about World War I.

Mal

9 books WOW! I can't even get started on the first one. I have 25 journals of about 300 pages each on a research project that I would like to put into book form. However, I guess I will have to get a ghost writer. It amazes me about all the talent that is on this net. A jazz musician, book writer, and a whole lot of other things all tied in with being house wives. You ladies deserve a whole lot of credit. My wife worked till the children came along. She did not go back to work till the kids had grown up. She is a people person. She could have stayed home if she wanted. I made engouh to support us both but she liked to meet people. My rule was the kids come first. After they have grown up then do as you please. So long as there are small children in the house then I think that is where the wife belongs. The husband should make enough money to support a family. The husband should also help with the heavier house work such as moving furniture (women like to move things around a lot) or doing the laundry to take some of the load off the woman. When the kids are small she has a 24 hour job. The man should help. End of lecture.

Do you get your novels published? Nine novels is an awfully huge amount of writing. I have written three "books" just for the heck of it because I enjoy writing stories. But my stuff was never intended to be published. I write about my family and family events so it isn't saleable material. I just tell stories. Its fun and I like to think that some day a great grandchild will curl up in a chair and read a story about our lives in the 20th century and realize that we were good people, happy people. Perhaps that great grandchild will smile when he or she might realize where some personality quirks originated. I have written about my stint in the Army too, but it tells about the adventures of a goldbrick and has no place on this posting site. It was more or less a contest between me and my First Sergeant. I dont think Robby would care for it at all.

losalbern, you'll never know unless you try Robby and see. Right? Sounds good to me.

Spooks, it would be a great project for you to go through those notebooks and sift out enough for a book. That's what an editor or ghost writer would do, and it would save you some money. From what I read here I'd say each one of you veterans of World War II has a book in him or her.

I do editing for money in my spare time, try to write at least 1000 words a day, lead a writers group right here in SeniorNet called the Writers Exchange WREX in the Writing, Language and Word Play folder, and publish three literary electronic magazines. If you click my name you will see the links for those ezines. Maybe you'd like to take a look.

There are stories of mine in two of those magazines, I think, but I'll be darned if I remember their names! I write as Marilyn Freeman. What I do remember is that there's an excellent essay by Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca in my magazine, "Sonata magazine for the arts". Robby's essay is called "Can We Learn in Later Years?"

I found long ago that nothing ever gets done just talking about it, so when I get an idea I get very busy and go to work.

Oh, yes. A publisher is sniffing around one of my books right now. I have published stories and articles and my stuff has appeared in several electronic magazines besides my own on the World Wide Web.

Thanks for your comments, fellas. I appreciate them.
Mal

Malryn, that's great, I've read your stories before. Keep at it, we may all be buying your book or books! I managed to "squeeze" - Haha - 20+ hours a week, every week, into being an accountant, bookkeeper, secretary and receptionist for our business that we started together. It was successful and, therefore, we expanded and then started another. The office was in our home and we had no time for vacations, but weekend trips were wonderful - my children didn't complain! We worked hard, we saved, we gave our children love and attention - I loved every minute of it! BESIDE EVERY STRONG WOMAN, WALKS A STRONG MAN!

The 25 journals are all technical. It would be a tough job to edit because every thing links together. There has to be at least 500 technical illustrations. It has nothing to do with the war. If I did it my way the book would be so large no one would be able to afford it. Isn't that a nice situation. The people that would want to read it would be not over 2500. When I pass over it will be left in the archives out in Indiana. Thanks for the info. I will check out your writing.

Losalbern: Tell me about the problems with the First Sergeant.

Robby

First off Robby, he was a very good First Sergeant. But like most all non-coms, he delighted in assigning extra work details to his unsuspecting charges. His duty was to make certain that these little extra jobs were character building. We had to learn how to take orders and not ask questions or complain. He had the muscle, the authority and we dog faces had nothing going for us. My duty, as I saw it, was to avoid these character building exercises with a passion. And I learned the ropes at the heel of an expert. But the Army took a dim view of soldiers who avoided extra details such as these. These people were labled as being "goldbricks", a term I became very familiar with. And so it became an interesting game. Quite soon, my mentor, the ace goldbrick and I became joined at the hip as far of our First Sergeant was concerned. If a request for two GIs for some special crummy detail came down the pike from Headquarters Company, our names just automatically seemed to pop into his mind. In all fairness, I have to admit that we were exposed to some incidents and assignments that were downright interesting. Sometimes! My First Sergeant really tried hard to make a semblance of a soldier out of me, but he didn't have an awful lot to work with.. Losalbern Ps. Did you have contact with any goldbricks? Any body come to mind?

Losalbern:

Well, when you get down to it, the Army was filled with Goldbricks, wasn't it? After all, what percentage of the military (especially the Army)was there because they preferred that to civilian life? And it became an art -- how to be a goldbrick and not to have the appearance of one.

But being a First Sergeant was no cinch either. It was considerably different from civilian life, also, unless one had previously been a Simon Legree. The First Sergeant was a buffer. The Company Commander sat comfortably in the Orderly Room and told the First Sergeant what he wanted to see happen, eg prepare immediately for a ten-mile hike in the rain. The Top Kick (who perhaps at home was a real nice guy) may have said something to the effect of: "Captain, it's raining pretty hard." The CO, who was recovering from a bad night out on the town, said: "They'll live, Sergeant."

Now what does the First Soldier do? Does he line up the company and say: "Fellows, I don't really like this idea but the Old Man says we gotta do it?" Would that make him a buddy? No -- it would label him as a softie!! -- the last thing in the world that a First Sergeant can be seen as. Lose the respect of your men and you have lost the whole shootin' match. So he says: "You're in the Army. Look like a soldier!"

It was a tough life, being a First Sergeant!!"

Robby

(Of course, we did make more money and had special privileges.)

Robby, you could be my First Sergeant anytime! Not doubt you did a super job. And of course it was a difficult job. The First Sergeant ran the Company. The CO and his staff just went along for the ride. But I want to tell you that I had some second thoughts in the light of day about my last posting. I realized that this site is not the place to talk about goldbricks. This site is meant for guys who were heroes and anybody who saw a day of combat is a hero to me. So I promise never to deviate any more and detract from the real purpose of this posting site. I promise... losalbern

Joan et al : Had two great weeks in San Francisco, Went out to Keezar stadium to see service football teams. I remember the El Toro Marines and the Pearl Harbor All-Stars as two that I saw, with great college names popping off the roster, Buddy Young from Illinois and Norm Stanlee of Stanford, are two that I remember.

On 3rd Dec we left San Francisco and headed WEST!!!!, it took awhile, but I soon realized we were going in the wrong direction, I knew the Panama Canal and our home Port of Norfolk, Va were not west, but west it was, filled with "scuttlebutt" as to where we were going, as the Captain was not in the habit of calling me into his stateroom to describe where he was taking me, I had to depend on the "old Men" in my area( old men meant anyone over 21) to figure it all out. On 31st Dec,"New Year's Eve" we passed Iwo Jima, abeam to port at 18 miles On 5th Jan, 1946 we anchored in the Gulf of Po hai.

It was becoming very difficult to see Paul Revere's lanterns in the steeple of the Old North Church, back in Boston. 7th Jan, anchored, two Chinese barges are now tied up to the ship, one for cargo, the other contained a building that was to be used for housing for the 100 chinese laborer's for the unloading of material destined for the Marine detachment in Tientsin, Liberty was granted, in group's of 50,overnite in Tientsin for all hands.

Liberty in Tientsin. 5800 chinesae dollars for one American, so it was the American cigarette that we carried for barter. Luckey strike,. Old Gold, Chesterfield were the brands most acceptable by Chinese merchant's, we also carried Dunhill and Merit brands which required a great deal of explaining to be accepted for goods, to the point of opening the carton, before the merchant would nod his or her head in acceptance. Marines took us in tow to make sure we didn't get the short end of the deal. Lodging was in the National Hotel under the Red Cross, happy to see and use the Snack bar, hot dog's in a roll with cold milk, my buddy and I were in heaven, until two Marine's sat down with us and in general conversation, mentioned that the milk was not pasturized, that put a bit of a damper on things. If asked what did the area looked like, my answer was a very simple "brown, everything ,looked brown", Hundred's and hundred's of people riding bicycle's and policemen , up in their boxes swinging a club as they passed, in the attempt to keep everyone moving and moving fast.

My buddy and I went on a rickshaw ride, pulled by a man who I quessed. soaking wet, weighed 95 pound's, pay-off time came and was settled by adding one carton onto another until his head nodded in agreement. 20th Jan,all hatches unloaded, chinese barges unmoored with all chinese laborer's, at 2159 underway, standing down Gulf of Po Hai enroute Toku, China to San Francisco. Will post again later today

Hi, I haven't been on in a few days. Seems like I crash our computer every time I try to do any thing lately. Been keeping Roger and our daughters busy trying to keep it going.

I just want to thank you all for the nice comments you made about the poem and Roger and me.

Kathy

8th Feb, at 1055 passed under the "Golden Gate " bridge, small boat off port side taking picture's. Came on board a few day's later and sold large B/W at $2.50 each. I still have it hanging in my home. We anchored berth #32. Spent 7 days in San Francisco this time,with general R@R in the city and left
15th Feb, underway for Balboa CZ
24th Feb arrived Panama Bay, standing in channel to Panama Canal at 1532.

Commenced being towed in Miraflores lock, first section proceeding to second section, at 1935 commenced being towed into Pedro Miguel lock,1950 proceeding into Cuceracha reach, at 2000 proceeding through Panama Canal, at 2232 anchored in GATUN LAKE reach.

25th Feb, 1810 proceeding through lock into Limon Bay anchorage,1508 standing out of anchorage, enroute to Little Creek, Virginia. While we were anchored in GATUN LAKE we pumped fresh water from the lake onto the deck and washed any dirty clothing and had a nice outdoor shower.

27th Feb Cuba sighted 26 miles at 340 degree's at 1643 changed course, proceeding To aid of S.S. FOUNDATION ARANMORE AGROUND ON s.e. coast of Great Inagua Island, West Indies, dispatched boat and took aboard Mrs R.J. Thronville and Paul Thronville at 1413 28th Feb.Underway to Little Creek 1625. I think I can see a small glow appearing on the horizon and I hope it's Mr. Revere waving his lantern.

3rd March arrived Lynhaven Roads anchorage at 1006,at 1220 LCM's unloaded(these are 50ft tank lighters with forward ramp used to carry tanks and trucks to the beach) delivered to C.O. Little Creek. Two passengers departed .1514 enroute to New York, arrived
4th March, Graveend Bay 1038 started unloading ammo.

Proceeded to Todd Shipyard at 33rd street, Brooklyn.
20th April I was tranferred to Ellis Island for processing and discharge, transferred

26th April to 1st N.D. Boston, Mass. Honorable dischaged that p.m. My first civilian step's took me uptown to where I sat on a park bench in Boston Common and just drank in the surroundings.

Eventually took the subway heading home, tranferred to the "street car" got off and started walking the last two miles to my home. Met a neighbor along the way that I knew, it was a nice meeting, he greeted me with a firm handshake and said how happy he was to see me home safe and sound. I knew he had lost a son over Europe, so the handshake and a firm hug said everything that had to be said.

Walked in my driveway, into my home, called out "Mom" where are you?. No answer, I peeked around the door and there she was in her favorite chair, with her beads in her hands and a big smile on her face. We kissed and hugged and cried tears of joy.

My dad came home from work later and my married brother and Sisiter and families arrived that evening and the journey was complete. Let me say at this time my sincere thanks to all who work so hard to make this web-site so great, without it I would have never sat down and wrote this story, one that certainly can be repeated a million times over.

Oh Dunmore, that was beautiful ~ the long journey home was certainly a "buffer" to prepare you for your re-entry. And then after all that, you - (and Paul )on the parkbench in Boston Common before the final lap! I can just see you!

Meeting the neighbor whose son was not coming home with the quiet hug...and then moving closer to the quiet tearful reunion with Mom and her worn rosary beads...

Nothing needs to be said about of this poignant scene, except to thank you for taking us back in time with you. We would like to follow you in the next days and months into post-war America.

Again, thank you!

Oh, one more question - about those stars in the windows. How long did yours stay up after the war? We understand that the blue signified someone was in the service, the silver, that someone was sent overseas, and the gold, that someone would not be coming home. Were there two stars in your window? How long did they stay there after your homecoming, do you remember?

This is a delicate question, but for those who did not return, I cannot imagine taking those gold stars down - ever!!! Do you have memories of this?

Kathy, sorry you are going through the fatal blue screen routine with your computer! Most of us have developed a love-hate relationship with these little techno-pets of ours!
I hope your days are going well. You two are in our thoughts and prayers, a true reminder of all those who did return, but cannot forget. I read in one of TBrokaw's books, that only 10% of the troops of WWII saw combat...I'd wager it was higher than that in Korea. Too much for those who saw the reality of war up close to forget. That is understood. What is not understood is the toll this experience continues to take on that percentage. Your willingness to share your story puts a face on these numbers. This is so important and we thank you.

Kathy, we understand that the Korean "conflict" arose shortly after WWII - and that the country was not as "into" it as with the big one. Did the families of those involved in the Korean War post stars in their windows?...What I'm trying to ask, were there any such visible indications at home that families again had loved ones in harm's way?

I can remember GOLD stars remaining in windows for years after the war. BLUE stars came down rather quickly as people wanted to forget the war.

Sort of like the uniform -- some discharged soldiers continued to wear their uniforms, including the Ruptured Duck, (or without the RD to impress the girls) and some ripped that uniform off within 24 hours after discharge.

Incidentally you could go around in uniform without that RD but if you did, you were subject to being accosted by the Military Police who assumed you were still in the service.

Robby

Good morning, Robby! Let me guess what you did....hhhmmm. You stayed in France after the war, right? You were a single guy, in liberated Paris after the war...don't tell me you took off that uniform and walked around Paris in civilian clothes. Naaah! You were one to impress the girls and I'll bet that uniform was a real come-on!

Were there multiple stars in windows? For example, did your dad display both a blue and then a silver star too - once you went overseas?

Joan - I don't know about how long they stayed up but in the early 50's there was a network of "Gold Star Mothers" who opened their homes to servicemen who were traveling. I stayed in one in Oakland on my way to ship over to Japan & Korea. This particular home had 3 gold stars in the front window and was listed at the USO. The cost for room and breakfast was $1.00 per night.

Theron

When I was in Paris after the war, I was still in the Service and so were the other thousands of Americans in Paris. I was attending the Sorbonne as part of the Army Information and Education program. I wouldn't have been allowed to remove my uniform. I could have been court martialed for that. The uniform was less of a turn-on to the Parisiennes than the fact that we were Americans. They had been looking at uniforms of all sorts of nationalities for seven years.

I never heard of the Silver Star until you mentioned it this morning. Yes, my father had a Blue Star in his window as did other members of my family.

Robby

Robby,

My brother wore his Navy pea-coat for quite awhile after he came home. It was warm and he couldn't afford to buy a winter coat. He was going to college on the GI Bill and waiting on tables in a sorority house to meet expenses. I know that at the college in my home town and at the college that I went away to a lot of the returning vets wore their uniform jackets or coats for the same reason.

I never heard of or saw a silver star in the window, either. Just 3 blue stars in my parent's home and a gold star in my aunt and uncle's window.

Phyll

Shortly after my discharge I enrolled in college under the GI Bill. Not only did my being a student helped me to make the transition from military to civilian life, but as your brother did, Phyll, I also earned money while in college. In my case I was a "cleaner-upper" in the Chemistry lab. It was the first time I had received pay for a particular occupation subsequent to my enlistment. It was a small job but it was a "civilian" job.

Robby

Joan, No we didn't put stars or anything in our windows. My brother was in Korea. He went in as a paratrooper and after a couple of jumps was transferred into an infantry division. We were completely surprised the night he came home. We didn't know he was on the way.

When Roger was on the ship coming home, the news media had already found out about him. There were pictures of him in the papers and banks had his pictures on ink blotters. When he was two days from San Francisco he was told by the commanding officer not to speak to any of the news media. He was threatened with court marshal because he had purjured himself when he lied about his age to get into the service.

There were no parades. The Red Cross had a table set up with coffee and do-nuts. He couldn't get to them because the news media was all around there and trying to ask him questions. Roger was trying to ignore them and the M.P.'s got him and put him on the bus and later the other guys got on. In 1970, the Dept. of Defense came to our place of business and wanted him to talk about it then, and accept a very high award. But Roger put a demand on the Dept. of Defense that they couldn't meet, so that ended it. After they left, he told me it was all political. They needed an underaged hero because the Viet Nam War was going bad. There's lots of things in our life that I wish I could talk to you about. I can't do it though because it's too sensitive. But let me say this, we love each other with all our hearts. We both trust each other and I'm the buddy he really needs.

Joan if you can send me your snail address , I'll send you some pictures of Roger. One shows the tatoo on his forehead, one, right after he got out of training and the other shows him in Korea. I call it "the face of war". It was taken only six months later from the one after training.

Kathy

I don't see how he could have been court martialed for going into the service underage. In order for them to court martial him, they would have to acknowledge that he was old enough to be court martialed. They were in a bind. Sort of like our current problem in our society -- how do you penalize a juvenile who commits an adult crime?

Robby

Our homeward bound troopship was absolutely loaded with GIs who had left their various units in Japan. As the ship approached the Seattle coastline just after dusk, many of us strained through the darkness to get a glimpse of any part of America. Once in Puget Sound, a small tug sized boat came alongside and matched our speed. Then suddenly it lit up with hundreds of lights from stem to stern many of which spelled out "WELCOME HOME" while a bull horn introduced a troupe of gutsy girls who defied the chill of a cold February, 1946 night, sang and danced and put on a great show. We GIs were thrilled and delighted! Our ship's pilot must have struggled to keep our vessel upright when thousands of GIs rushed to the railing to watch that marvelous show. What a USO! Such dedicated women ! And a surprise welcome that I will never forget.

Three gold stars in that one window, Theron! Unimaginable how these people lived on with such loss! The fact that the Gold Star Mothers provided a haven for traveling servicemen (you!) is an indication that they were dealing with their grief in this way...

Phyll, I used to comb thrift shops for those navy pea coats..so warm and I love the buttons! So sorry about your cousin. Were you close? Can you remember how your aunt and uncle dealt with their loss? How does one celebrate the war's end with this permanent reminder?

Kathy, we should all have a buddy like you! Poor young Roger! What a re-entry! Not even a jelly donut! I'm sending you Joan Grimes' snail mail address - she's been taking care of the photo gallery for us. I want to see that picture. Wait a minute! What about that tatoo on his forehead? Is it still there? I really want to see this!

Now, Losalbern, that was a real Welcome! I'll bet our Ellen would joined that chorus line is she was around that night! Any more memories when you reached home?

Losalbern mentions the USO. I believe it was brought up briefly here in a couple of postings but it cannot be overdone. The United Service Organizations. We know about the big shows they sponsored, such as Bob Hope and the others. But the heart of the USO was the string of small, some very quiet, spots where a GI could go in and rest his weary soul. Yes, I said "soul". While those small USOs might have some pretty girls in there where he could flirt a bit, and while there might be a small spot where he could dance -- more than likely he found one or more motherly individuals upon whose shoulder he could cry, who would listen by the hour, who would help him write a letter, and where he could munch on a home-made cake.

Talk about veterans!! These non-uniformed folks (mostly women) put in as many hours and as much effort throughout the war years as might be expected from any one in the Service. USOs were "home away from home."

Robby

Joan,

My cousin and I lived in the same small town and went to the same school and of course, there was a family connection but we weren't really close. Strangely, his death caused a rift in our family. His family were farmers and his mother, my aunt, tried in every way possible to have him deferred from military service. She was successful until he was no longer comfortable with being the only one of his friends to stay behind and enlisted in the Marines. My mother was outspokenly critical of his deferrment mostly because my father had served 5 years in the Army in WWI and all three of my brothers were in service in WWII. She thought my cousin should "do his duty" just as others were doing. When he died, I think she never got over feeling guilty about her criticism and my aunt never really forgave her.

Phyll

In your last posting, Robby, your comment about the efforts of women during the war years was right on the mark. After reading many postings by so many ladies at this site, I am convinced that their contribution to winning the war was greater by far than mine. Joan, If Ellen was part of that Seattle USO show, she has my profound thanks. Regarding other memories about returning home, I pretty much covered them in #31 posting ( except for the incorrect date..Oh me!) Robby, I, too, returned to college on the GI Bill. But it took yet another "second Chance" to accomplish that move.

Robby,

I called a former V.A.Representative,who is also a friend of ours and a retired Full Bird Colonel. Not that I didn't believe Roger, it's just that I was curious myself.

I read the post to him I had put on and your response. I asked what perjury charges could have been brought against Roger? He informed me that when Roger signed a document to enter the service,saying he was 18 years old and using an illegal birth certificate, it constitutes perjury. I also asked him about the direct order from his commanding officer. He said," if the order had been disobeyed in combat, then he would have ordered a general court martial". He went on to explain to me that the punishments for a gen. court martial can be severe. But in Roger's case,it would have probably been a special court martial involved, which probably would have meant 6 months at hard labor, a forfiture of two thirds pay in allowances,reduced to the rank of Private and discharged with a Bad Conduct Discharge.

He also said if anyone in his right mind thinks an underaged soldier,( because he's underaged,)can disobey an officer, lives in a dream world and can't be too familiar with the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Joan, I've had second thoughts about the pictures. I wouldn't want to send them without Roger knowing about it. I won't be needing Joan Grimes snail address. I hope I haven't caused you too much trouble. Have a good night. Kathy

Is anyone at the Soldiers' and Airmen's Home or the U.S. Naval Home in Gulfport, Miss. on line? Would like to talk to you if you have access to this message board. Or you can contact me at: gemstar@inreach.com

Dear WHOMI, we will certainly look out for posts from the Gulfport, Miss. group, but you know, I think we'd have a better chance finding the answer to your question by contacting them! Will try on Tuesday. How's that? I have never considered the idea that there might be Internet access within these homes - but WHY NOT? Please tell us a bit more about yourself? We'd love to get to know you better!

Kathy, oh yes, by all means, do check with Roger before sending his photograph for "publication" here! Hahaha! But in the meantime, can you tell us more about the forehead tatoo incident?

I've written to Ellen - she's working now and her on-line time is limited, but she has stories to tell. Would like to reprint her "pink coat" story for Losalbern and two others who have asked. As I recall, she was with the Red Cross, but that was some story!

Robby's post on the USO, and previous posts on the Red Cross and other wartime organizations with so many participants...make me stop to think about all the post war adjustments, the shifting around in positions that had to take place at war's end. I'd like to hear more about the transition!

I assume that many factories closed down...especially those that produced tanks, planes and munitions? Did that happen immediately? We've read that many, many Vets returned to take advantage of the GI Bill ...were you full time students? Will you tell of your first months home?

The women who had been working...many returned home to start families - but was that immediatley? I'm wondering how that all came about? Some of you had careers - like the fascinatin', multi-talented Mal, and the teachers, nurses, etc. and I assume that you kept on? Ella writes delightfully of her delight at returning home to raise her family...am I right in assuming that the women who had taken temporary jobs to help with the war-effort were happy and eager to return home if they could? But regretted somewhat the loss of independence the salary had provided? Correct me if I am generalizing too much again?

And many needed to work...did you find that the work you did during the war provided you with confidence and practical experience for the workworld?

That must have been a crazy, heady time, immediately following the war! Like a musical chairs???

Have a super Monday, everyone!

Post-war certainly was a HEADY time. Just one example -- I commuted daily from my home to Hofstra College. A fellow named Levitt (whom no one had ever heard of at that time) was busy digging up the potato fields near Hempstead and building homes there. But it was the way in which he built them!! In the morning I would pass five concrete foundations in a particular spot. As I returned home in the late afternoon, there would be five houses standing there that hadn't existed in the morning.

A second section of housing would get underway but even as that was happening, veterans and their families were already moving into the first section, putting up curtains, and planting grass. Talk about heady!!

Robby

I am 30 years old and doing research on what type of courses we could offer to the 50+ population. I stumbled upon this site, and I think it is wonderful. I find all your entries so interesting. It's been great reading all your entries, and somehow, trying to put myself in that time frame, for example, being a new wife and mother, and being told my husband is not coming back from war. What calamity it must've brought upon the wive's and mother's of that generation. I am absolutely enthralled by this and will continue to come back and absorb all your memories. Please keep on posting!

Martha:

Many of us (not all of us) in the generation born generally between 1915 and 1930 are concerned that the "younger" generation sees us as "history" and irrelevant. We are pleased that someone your age is interested and you are most welcome to continue visiting with us.

Robby

Has no one mentioned dancing? All our generation loved to dance, loved movies with dancing in them, played records on a record player all the time at home and on the jukebox when we were out. There were jukeboxes everywhere, on tables in restaurants and the big ones that sat on the floor. Living in Columbus, Ohio after the war it was the "thing to do" to dance and those who were very good at it took over the floor and the others stood back and watched and then clapped.

My husband and I met on the dance floor at the Y.W.C.A. On Wednesday nights the dance was held at the YWCA (on their gym floor) and on Friday nights it was at the YMCA (on their gym floor). Both had live orchestras - probably a 12-piece band - and for something like 50 cents you could get in. Girlfriends went in groups and likewise guys would stroll in singly or with their buddies and most were veterans!

It seems very strange to younger generations how we used to meet - a number of romances started at these dances. The girls would all stand at one end and the fellows at the other end and we would size each other up (my daughter thinks this is the weirdest part) and soon a guy would come across the floor and ask a girl to dance. A bit of "flirting" went on, no doubt, across the floor; however, my husband asked me to dance and then asked to take me home! At first, we met at the dances (where just coke and chips were sold - no hard drinks, this is the Y remember?) and then several couples joined and we would go out after the dance to a club - where there was a dance floor and drinks served and floor shows! And more dancing and a lot of fun.

Certainly all of you remember floor shows?

How well I remember!! Much of my life has been spent dancing. (I still do ballroom dances.) During those years I often went to Roseland Ballroom in NYC, the largest ballroom in the world (at least at that time and may still be). All the name bands performed there. And yes, there were GIRLS, weren't there? I almost forgot!!

Robby

I can't share your memory of dancing, but I did play the piano and sing with some bands. The only guys to flirt with there were the cute trumpet player and the drummer that looked a little like Buddy Rich.

Actually, I ended up marrying the cute trumpet player and never saw the Buddy Rich guy again.

Mal

Now there's a romantic story hiding somewhere there, Mal. Do you want to share?

Robby

The first time I saw him was when I went to chapel one morning when I was a senior in high school, and this tall young man sat down at the grand piano and played the first movement of the Beethoven Pathetique Sonata. It's not easy music, and I was impressed because I didn't know anybody else in school could play that besides me. That's not bragging. I had some advantages like a scholarship to a conservatory to study music, so was ahead of most people.

I found out this guy was only a junior and the son of an English teacher in the school. That was a damper, really. Who wants your boyfriend's father in school with you?

We began the walk down the halls routine; later learned a Mozart two piano concerto together; then I found out he played the trumpet in dance bands. It was through him I got the jobs, and we spent some fun weekend nights playing at dances.

He was a really terrific jazz trumpet player and, though good, was only a technician at the piano. I've always loved the trumpet since the uncle who raised me was a trumpet player and led a military band.

Anyway, my boyfriend and I met after school a couple times a week ostensibly to practice music, and the romance bloomed.

I'm older than he, so I went away to college before he did; then so did he in a different state with summers away in the NROTC. That didn't matter because we were in love. Six years after we met, we were married.

Music played a big part in our marriage, and I always thought he was much more fun as a trumpet player than a classical pianist.

Mal

I was a member of the high school band and orchestra. I had played cornet, trumpet and trombone since abut eight years old. After high school and playing in most of the local dance bands I was drafted. When I ended up in Germany I played trombone in a dance band in Heidelberg. We played for both Germans and Americans. When I returned home I played in a local swing band of about 14 in a resort area.

For years I didn't know how to dance because I was always in the band! Once I got the bug I danced more often than I played in the band. I have not been able to walk correctly since 1995, but when we had our 50th class reunion in 1997 I told my wife "I am going to dance tonight one way or the other." The band was a group of friends of mine and I told them whatI wanted to dance to and they obliged. It was great getting out on the dance floor with my wife for the first time in two years. My class gave us a big hand, as we were the only ones dancing the first dance! I paid for it the next day but it was worth it.

The Merchant Marine had none of the above. No stars in the windows, no U.S.O...No nothing. One convoy of 33 ships to Murmansk and only 10 ships made it.There was a good number of convoys and the German subs had a field day.

Spooks:

My brother-in-law was in the Merchant Marine during World War II. I'm sure he'd know everything you're talking about.

Mal

Just returned from Ft Benning,Ga. where, at ceremony, I pinned Airborne wings on grandson before he moves on to train for his Black Ranger beret and, if successful, on to a Special Forces Green beret. I am in awe at the energetic and healthy patriotism that is abound at that base. I am no longer in fear that our country is in weak hands- military speaking, not political. As they shouted while marching--"AIRBORNE"! I'm glad I went!

Almost felt like joining up again ---NOT!

I have been so busy that I haven't even had the time to post any messages, just barely read them! I am back in the middle of the work world, managing the Lewis and Clark Interpretive Center gift store through the Washington State Parks and Recreation dept. And its the height of the tourist season. It's a very dramatic setting, in a building that sits on a cliff overlooking the mouth of the Columbia River and the Pacific Ocean as I think that you know and have visited. Its an area called the Graveyard of the Pacific and is one of the most dangerous maritime settings in the world. The salmon season is on right now and the "hog line" is out in strengh around the last buoy at the mouth of the river. That's the famous buoy 10 with the Coast Guard hovering over the whole fishing fleet like mother hens worrying over their chicks. Huge commercial freighters swing right up through the fishing fleet and its interesting to listen in on the ship to shore radio conversations.

We have one of the few bar pilots in the world who is a woman. She has her master's license and was in the Gulf war as a ship's captain. I got to meet her one day at the center and it was truly an honor. Captain Debbie Dempsey. Wow, guys-you are so right about how things have changed since WWII!!!! Captain Dempsey is a very attractive young woman, who on her first bar pilot mission, clambered up the side of a huge freighter in a violent storm, walked onto the bridge of the ship, took rain gear and rain hat off, shook her hair out and introduced herself to the captain. He exploded in a high volume of cuss words, stating that no **##blanky####blank woman was going to pilot HIS ship across one of the most dangerous marine passages in the world in a storm! Captain Dempsey was said to just give him one answer. "Sir, its the federal law." he ended up by marrying her.

Speaking of marriage. My first marriage was lost to my husband's drinking from all of his war experiences (Omaha Beach, and a long list of Third Army battles). I had to commit him to the state mental hospital. There was no help for veterans at that time, help came after later wars, and its still difficult to think about the loss of such a bright, talented man. He developed syrosis of the liver (naturally) and a host of other health problems, was in a terrible auto accident due to his drinking which injured himself and our five year old daughter (in a jeep, naturally) and finally ended it all by commiting suicide, as did his brother, a survivor of the battle of the Bulge. Not all marriages had good stories out of WWII. I know. And those were very tough lean years, ten years after the depression was over.

Joan, yes, you have permission to reprint the "pink coat" story. or anything else that I have posted. And yes, it was the Red Cross that I volunteered in all during the war. I wore that darned old Red Cross uniform and hat all through those years.

Repeated here for all who ever came home to no welcoming celebration, fanfare - not even a donut. This is for the whole troop ship coming into port that rainy day in Portland with no one to greet them but this gutsy 17 year-old, our Ellen. What a story, simple but so meaningful and memorable for those troops and for all of us who read it here! The Red Cross at its finest moment!

One of the last times that I volunteered for the Red Cross was to greet a transport with debarking troops from the South Pacific. This was in Portland on the Willamette River. The day was gloomy dark gray, very cold and pouring down rain in February, 1946 but the incoming troop ship ( a Liberty ship) was covered from the masts to the railings with GI’s. Fire boats were escorting the ship, showering away with a watery greeting in the rain.

I had come from a morning shopping trip downtown with my first peacetime purchase of a new bright pink coat with big square lucite buttons, new snakeskin platform ankle strap high heels and a large pink chiffon scarf. I had put the box with the new clothes in the back of the Red Cross truck when I suddenly saw that the whole scene demanded something truly grand. I yanked off my heavy dark coat, jammed the Red Cross hat into my pocket, slipped into the new pink coat, snapped on the anklestrap high heels, shook out my hair and stepped out in the rain to the very edge of the dock. I stood there all alone and waved the chiffon scarf back and forth over my head. A huge roar rolled out over the ship and I could see the captain on the bridge pulling on the ship’s whistle again and again. Every man on those crowded decks was wildly waving back. It was surreal. When the ship finally docked, the captain was the first person down the gangplank. He strode over to me, threw his arms around me, kissed me on the cheek, and said “sweetheart, that was a welcome that I will never forget. Thank you.”

Ellen, your husband's - and his brother's tragic story drives home your point again - "Not all marriages had good stories out of WWII. I know. And those were very tough lean years, ten years after the depression was over."

Not all could dance and celebrate the fact that the war and hard times were finally over. For a great many people, the "heady" celebrations must have been hard to take. We can't forget that. Ever. What can we do to assure that returning veterans receive the treatment they need? And their families, the support?

Suntaug, you paint a reassuring picture of today's military - and patriotism. Dare we hope that Vets and their families are getting attention and financial support these days? Is it fair to say that our government was overwhelmed at the number of returning WWII Vets who required psychological attention, and their families who needed support?

In some areas the government gave attention and in others it didn't. Back in the first half of the 20th Century, our knowledge of mental illness had much to be desired. I lived near the two largest mental state hospitals in the world. Each of the hospital campuses looked like college campuses. They were beautiful. Large spacious lawns, park benches, beautiful private homes scattered around in which the top psychiatrists lived.

There was a railroad spur from the main line which led into the hospital grounds. At regular intervals, trains would arrive with the poor scared individuals (a large percentage of them black) who were then led into the hospital. One of the wards was the "violent ward." In those days there was no effective medication such as we know it these days. They just went on hallucinating for years.

Many of the families with whom I grew up had members who worked there. They told stories I prefer not to repeat here. I'll give a quick lesser example. One type of Catatonic Schizophrenia is known as "waxy flexibility" wherein the sufferer stays immobile for hours at a time. Some orderlies would come along and move the patient's arms or legs or head in such a way as to create an obscene statue and the patient would remain that way. Of course not all employees were that type but you get the picture.

My point? In the latter 1940s, the government thought in terms of houses, jobs, education, etc. (the GI Bill) and did a great job but society did not have the extent of knowledge we have these days to prevent many of the stories we are hearing here. Veterans hospitals existed but they were, I am sorry to say, just warehouses in many cases.

I don't believe that the government was "overwhelmed" at the amount of vets needing psychological attention. I believe that scientists and clinicians just didn't have the extent of knowledge needed at that time equal to the knowledge they had that was needed to build houses and start businesses.

Robby

Thanks Robby! Is it possible for our WWII/Korean Vets to get the help they needed back then - today? Do you think there is help for some of those still suffering from post traumatic shock? Or are some of these problems beyond even what modern psychology/psychiatry can reach?

Would it be fair to say that the GI Bill was centerpiece of the recovery effort? Can anyone supply information on this Bill? Whose bright idea was it? Is there still such educational support for returning Vets? Did you Korean Vets benefit from this bill?

Can you relate how the direction of your lives changed after the war? Say there had been no war - mind-boggling thought! What were your plans or prospects for the future?

Did you stay in your hometown after the war? Huge population shifts occurred in those years following the war.....and we've been shifting ever since! Who was doing the shifting? Did you return to your hometown to stay?

It seems that not just the folks from farms and areas where there were job shortages changed direction after the war. The chapter on Famous People tells of those who were really poor, with no prospects before the war, like the young Art Buchwald (love that funny man!), but also those from really wealthy families, like George Bush and Ben Bradlee who returned from the sobering experience of serving in the Navy in the Pacific, with different ideas of how they were going to spend their lives, rejecting careers in the family footsteps.

Ben Bradlee details his Navy experience and post-war decisions in his autobiography, which is gearing up now for a SN Book discussion...you should find this interesting...and can check it out here at this link: Ben Bradlee's autobiobraphy, A Good Life

What did YOU decide to do following the war? GI Bill? And then what?

Ben Bradlee, the chief editor of the Washington Post for some 29 years, states in his memoir that he has had a ringside seat at some of the century's most vital moments and in his book A GOOD LIFE he writes candidly about his experiences - his early years, life on board a destroyer in WWII, McCarthyism, the Kennedys and his friendship with JFK, the 60's, Civil Rights riots, affirmative action, and the Watergate scandal.

In his chapter on his service in the Navy he describes his first taste of action as follows:

When I heard the anti-aircraft guns of the other ships in our convoy, I ran …..onto the bridge. The first plane I saw was whizzing along the water about 100 yards away. Just as I recognized it as one of ours, and cheered as I saw him splash the plane he was chasing, I looked almost straight up, and there it was. ……A Zero…..I could see the pilot. And worse than that, I could see the bomb he had just dropped arching lazily down toward us. How far away was the Zero? Maybe 150 feet. How big was the bomb? Somewhere between the size of the Empire State Building and about 200 pounds, probably closer to the latter. Was I scared? Who knows? I was so exhilarated it didn't feel like any fear I had ever felt……it soaked everyone on the starboard side of the ship-and never exploded. It was a dud.

Later in the book, Bradlee states that the war had given him and many veterans a sense of purpose and a confidence that we could make things happen.

Come join Harold and I September lst as we begin the discussion of one man's journey through some of the events that have shaped our country and our lives, particularly his views on WWII. The book is available at libraries or can be purchased for approximately $11 in paperback form. Joan has a clickable in the heading to the book discussion.

Joan: I have to leave and will be back later tonight.

Robby

I don't know if Korean veterans benefited much more than WWII veterans regarding mental health because they were both in the same time period. Gulf War veterans and others who were in Yugoslavia may now be benefiting more. V.A. Hospital vary - some are excellent, some not.

As for the GI Bill, I would agree with your statement that it was "the centerpiece of the recovery effort." Education -- jobs -- homes. And all at reasonable prices.

Robby

Joan, I don't know how gutsy I am, but I would like to honor my half-sister who is a navy veteran and was a veteran's hospital nurse for many, many years until the government made her retire.

Dorothy Sarver was raised in a logging community up in the Cascade Mountains of Oregon. She joined the navy right out of high school during the Korean conflict and took her training in the navy hospital in Baltimore. Now that took REAL guts, a girl out of a very remote Oregon community who joined the navy and took off for a life-time nursing career far from her home. She was trained as a ship-board operating room technician and was eventually assigned to the Bering Sea and then the South China Sea. After four years she married (naturally) a navy man who had been only fourteen (yes, fourteen, he lied about his age) when he enlisted and served on the Pennsylvania from the time just after Pearl Harbor until the end of the war.

Dorothy and Thomas had a family of three children during the time that she continued to work at the hospital on Guam where she also received her full nursing degree at the University of Guam. I don't know how she did it but I have the deepest admiration for her strength and guts. She then went on to nurse for five years on the late night shift at the military hospital in San Francisco during the Vietnam era (the terminally wounded). After that she worked in the VA hospital in New Orleans. And as I said, the government finally insisted that she retire which she and her husband did by coming back to that rural community in Oregon. My sister, the navy nurse.

Ellen:

What a marvelous tribute!! Your whole family is extraordinary!!

Robby

Ben Bradlee, “A Good Life.”

As you know The Books & Literature group will begin a discussion of the Ben Bradlee autobiography on September 1st. We would like to take this opportunity to invite any and all participants in the Tom Brokaw, “The Greatest Generation Speaks” discussion to join us. Let me tell you something about our book and why it may be of interest to you.

Ben Bradlee, I understand receives significant mention in the Tom Brokaw book. He was certainly a prominent member of the “Greatest Generation.” From his front row seat as editor of the Washington Post for some 30 years he witnessed and reported all the events of this news-rich period. He tells us all in the book. His résumé includes Harvard (1939), active duty as a Naval Officer on destroyers in the South Pacific during WW II, a cub reporter/correspondent in the early post war years including stints with Newsweek, the Washington Post and service as press officer at the U.S. Embassy in Paris. Then of course as we all know he returned to the Post and in the early 1960’s became its legendary Editor for next 30 years.

Some of the discussion points I see coming out of our review go beyond the discussion of the actual detailed facts described in the book. Of course we can talk about the author’s treatment of specific events such as the Bradlee role in the Watergate investigation and his close association with his Georgetown neighbor, John Kennedy. But delving deeper we can also center on the role of the press in our modern democracy. After all the press has been termed, the 4th estate signifying our acceptance of its “special position” in our society. There would seem to be many questions relating to how it has used or abused its quasi-governmental powers. Can examples of abuse be cited? How have these powers changed over the past half-century? How about your local press, can you give specific examples of success or abuse? I am sure there are many other areas to explore that will come up as the discussion progresses.

Since this book seems of logical interest to you who are participating in the “Greatest Generation” discussion, Ella and I wish to extend to you this special invitation to join us on the Bradlee board beginning Sept 1st.

Harold Arnold

P.S. The Book review achieves of the N.Y. Times contains 3 excellent reviews of our book. Registration is necessary but I think easy to initiate through the N.Y. Times chanel that I think is included in all Windows 98 packages? I found the reviews by clicking the “Books” option on the left hand menu frame on the N.Y. Times Home Page. Then in the search box enter “Bradlee” and click “search.” The results will include the three reviews of “A Good Life” plus reviews of several of his other books including his book on the Oliver North affair. Hope to see many of you in the Bradlee discussion this fall.

N.Y. Times Home Page

I doubt if there are any among you who are not aware of the disaster associated with the sinking of the Russian submarine Kursk. At the risk of being accused of totally digressing from the subject of “the greatest generation”, and possibly incurring the anger of those who do not believe that the Kursk should be part of this discussion, I must interject a different point of view.

While I am honored to be considered a member of the greatest generation, I would suggest to you that the title is not confined to a select group but to all those who fought so valiantly with us against the Axis aggressor nations in WWII and that would include the Russian people. As the victorious survivors of that great conflict, if we truly believe that our legacy is the inherent wisdom to be passed on to future generations, we must never forget as well, the 500,000 lives sacrificed by the Russians in the battle of Stalingrad alone, in considering their contribution to that mutual wisdom. What transpired at Stalingrad was not just a heroic battle. It was also a turning point in the war in Europe because it destroyed, once and for all, the mythic invincibility of the German army and made our nation’s role in the battle of Europe one of a significantly lower cost of American lives than it might otherwise have been subsequent to the invasion of Normandy.

Having said that, I must add that, regarding the horrible loss of souls on the Kursk, I believe some words of sympathy and understanding should be added from our seniors to those of Russia who, in their own right, are also members of the greatest generation. To that end, I submit the following post, together with only one of a number of responses received, as they appeared on a CNN message board, along with over ten thousand other posts from around the world in a matter of only a few days:

mike cantor – Tuesday, 08/22/00, 1:54:45am (#9590 of 10034)

As I sit before my computer screen reading all of your messages, I am conscious of the awesome wonder of a miracle in progress. One hundred and eighteen men have died a horrible death in the service of their country, fathers, wives, brothers, sons of mothers who now grieve an agony that they alone can know...a grief that they alone can experience..at that which they have lost.

The miracle is that ten thousand voices have been raised from countries around the world to praise, to protest, to question, to suspect, to vilify the perpetrators, but most important, to offer their prayers and sympathy for the souls who have been needlessly sacrificed as well as for the living grief stricken who have been left behind to shed bitter tears.

The miracle is that while the ten thousand voices speak in many different tongues, they are understood because of the generosity of those who can translate those different tongues so that every message can be made available to all. Let no voice be unheard seems to be the motto and a part of that generosity.

The miracle is that through the development of mankind's technical intellect those ten thousand voices can communicate their anger, their hopes, their fears and their resolve through the miraculous medium of cyberspace and the internet.

The miracle is that there are no medals, no posthumous awards, no statues or monuments, no matter how magnificent, to perpetuate the sacrifice and the tragedy that has taken place here of a greater order of magnitude in the progress of humanity than the ten thousand voices.

The miracle is that my dreams of the brotherhood of man and nations are, slowly but surely, becoming a reality in the more than ten thousand voices being raised world wide in this matter.

If I could wish for another miracle it would be that the families and loved ones of those who perished in that submarine could somehow be made aware and take some comfort in knowing that those they grieve for have a very special place in God's heart. If not for them, the miracle of the ten thousand voices might never have taken place.

Rich Roberts – Tuesday, 08/22/00, 2:19:42am(#9595 of 10034)

Mike Cantor

That was a wonderful piece of written expression that is sure to hit home with all the members of this board. It also brings a new meaning to the phrase “we the people” and that is a big milestone in this age. SALUTE!!

I can't add anything to that either! Well thought out.

I thought some of you might be interested in this newsletter I received from Olga Timohina of Russian Cuisine.

Aug. 24, 2000

Dear friends,
This newsletter can seem sad, but I am saddened indeed. I want to thank all of you who sympathized Russian sailors on the Kursk sub. We all sorrow very much. It is impossible to express the feeling of expectation and hope and impetuous anger towards the government and its negligence. We have no right to judge anybody, but life was so cruel...

One person asked me about food when there is a death in a house. In Russia, by Orthodox traditions, at the day of funeral a big table is covered to commemorate a dead person. Funeral repast is made of thin pancakes, rice with raisins and kissel.

As the recipes of pancakes and kissel have been published and rice with raisins is very easy to make, I want to suggest you the recipe of Kutya. Kutia is another funeral food. Maybe it is not interesting for some of you, but this is another side, unfortunately unhappy one, of Russian life.

Title: Kutia
Category: Russian

2 c Wheat kernels
3 qt Water
1 c Poppy seeds
1/2 c raisins
1 ea Apple peeled, cubed 1/4"
1/3 c Honey
1 c Sugar

Dry wheat in 250 F degree oven for 1hr, stirring occasionally. Rinse and soak overnight in cold water. Dissolve honey in 3/4 cup very hot water. Bring wheat to a boil, simmer for 3-4 hrs., until the wheat kernels burst. Simmer poppy seeds for 3-5 min., drain, grind in mortar with pestle and set aside. After ingredients are cool, combine in a bowl and add the chopped apples. Serve chilled, as this will not keep well at room temp. Store in refrigerator for up to 2 days if needed.

MMMMM

Bon Appetit!

Olga.

http://www.ruscuisine.com

Mal, we were posting together! The post on funeral food brings home in a personal way the individual suffering of these families and our common bonds in the human family. I can get really furious at the Russian government and authorities, but will restrain. That is too easy. The point is that it was a horrible accident (it was, wasn't it?) and that these families lost their loved ones trying to prepare for more war On it goes...

Rich Robert's words are heartening

"The miracle is that my dreams of the brotherhood of man and nations are, slowly but surely, becoming a reality in the more than ten thousand voices being raised world wide in this matter"

Thanks for bringing them to our attention, Mike! I think we have come to realize that the tag, "greatest" generation applies to all of you who stepped forward in the time of a great worldwide crisis, in great numbers, with wholehearted cooperation and sacrifice from another great number on the homefront. There is no competition for the honor of being called greatest...you were called to the test and you passed with flying colors. It is our hope that this present generation will never have to be put to that test, but if they must, that they will do as you all did! Wouldn't it be grand if the Internet becomes the unifying force that brings the common brotherhood of man together, so that such a bloodbath becomes unthinkable to this generation?

And yes, yes, yes, Russians of your generation passed the same rigorous test of greatness, including those hundreds of thousands who didn't ever live to hear the label attached to them!

Just now, before coming in here, I read this in the Washington Post:

WRITER SEEKS PUBLISHER
For Book On the Following Theme:

A comparison of the Soviet Union, France, Germany and the United States during World War II to the situation we find ourselves in today to accurately forecast the future.

The author's name is Charles Daoust. The title of his book is not mentioned. I'm fascinated by the topic. What do you think he will say?

(psst---I think he might need an editor, too.)

And a press agent.

Robby

Robby is learning his html lessons rather well, isn't he? Betty, I thought as you did when pondering that sentence...this was a huge ad too...5"x5"...

Ellen, your sister, Dorothy Sarver is quite a gal! Her story is an example of the great shift in the US population following the war. Tom Brokaw says in Greatest Generation that "America came to know itself during World War II." I can't remember the exact context, ~ that statement can be taken on several levels. I think that here it meant that young people had their eyes opened to so many possibilities during the war that would take them from their hometowns afterwards. I did note that Dorothy finally made it back home, but that was after spending a large portion of her life in differents part of the country.

Today's kids think nothing of travel and relocation, but that wasn't the case before WWII, was it?

Dorothy's story reminds me of Julia Child's, another of the famous people mentioned in this chapter whose life took a dramatic turn because of the war...

...a Smith College graduate, Mal ~ working in NY as an advertising copy writer...when the war started she went to Washington and tried to enlist in the WAVES...but she was too tall. (6'2" - why was this a problem?) So she stayed in DC and took a job she hated, as a clerk typist to help with paperwork associated with the war, and while there she heard the OSS was going to send people to the Far East...so she signed up...and went! Just like Dorothy! And from then on, she moved from one exotic location to the next, to Paris, capital of haute cuisine...and the rest is history! The war did that to people...

How about you? Did you go home to your old hometown? Was the old gang still there? Or did things change as much as we're reading about?

I am rather suprised that no one has posted a comment regarding the pent up demand for goods and services resulting from all the effort to satisfy the military needs from 1942-1945. It was bad enough for the general public during the years of rationing but made worse by the droves of returning veterans. And it took a while for the manufacturing companys to swing back and satisfy civilian consumption. Clothing was hard to come by. I was warned by other vets to wear my uniform when attempting to buy a suit of clothes. And I bought the last suit in the first store I went into. Some people signed up in car dealerships to be allowed to buy the first car that came off the line and hit the dealers showroom floor. No haggling over "extras" or even color. Housing was really in short supply and many vets and spouses lived in near hovels before they could find decent housing. I recall almost paling at the thought of signing for a new home that carried a monstrous $10,000. mortgage. Unheard of! Kinda scary! Those were post war adjustments too.

Regarding clothing after the war -- most Army veterans were willing to buy a suit of any color except brown (khaki). Enough was enough!!

Robby

Columbus, Ohio has what is called AMVET VILLAGE, small affordable homes that were built after the war for returning veterans. They were either subsidized by state or federal funds and required little or no down payment at the time. The homes are still in good shape so I think the builders took care to build them well.

Are these unique to my city? No other communities have anything like this? Have you checked with your city council to see? From a historical perspective, it would be interesting to see what was done on a national level to make housing affordable for returning veterans.

I was a bad reporter not doing my duty after my trip to Normandy Beach. Too many pre-occupation after I returned from there. Now, that I am back in the States, hope I'll do a better job. When I was in France, I heard so much about this new summer series called "Survivor" on CNN so I watch too episodes especially the last one. What has "Survivor" go to do with the Greatest Generation? Well, I thought Rudy the Seal epitomized the guts and glory of the period, being quite tough at 72, not doublecrossing and willing to take his own shortcomings, unlike some of the generations that came after. We hope that some of the 40 million who watch the program especially the younger generation who had bad roll model can learn from that generation. Y

HAHAHA! Yuri, I had the same thoughts! The words "duty" and "honor" came to mind while watching Rudy deal with the snake! I felt so bad for the guy when he had that "lapse" and let go of the pole when changing places. He was so tough and a mental lapse like that was not part of his character. He will not get over that for quite some time! I read that he is already planning to audition for a future "Survivor".

Welcome back! We're interested in your "report", not what Survivor is over......

Losalbern, Ella - interesting points about the post-war housing situation. I guess I always assumed that all the troops would return home to ....wherever they were before the war. But then we hear of all the shifting in the population and the many Vets who did not return home. Where did they go? I'll bet the AMVET housing in your town took a while to get built, didn't it, Ella? I can remember for years some ramshakle barracks thrown up quickly for military families on the edge of my town in New Jersey. They were really bad and everyone was relieved when they were torn down. Columbus did a better job for its vets!

When we moved into our house in Arlington 30 years ago, I was curious about the gas pipes up in my walk-in closet. A few years ago, a neighbor, a WWII Vet, told me that the family who owned this house at the time took in another military family. They lived on the second floor of this single family home...installed a small kitchen in my closet. The pipes belonged to the stove. In our basement there are still two gas meters...

The neighbor told me that this was a very common occurence around here as there were so many Vets relocating to the Washington area.

A year ago, I saw photos of houseboats, and tents along the Potomac where other families were "camping out" because there was no housing available. I searched the Net for something about that, but couldn't find anything. Imagine that! They should have gone to Columbus!

Robby: Or dark blue!

Good question, Joan! Now my curiousity has peaked and I'm going to call up the Historical Society or City Council or somebody and find out just when they were built and the particulars! Will let you know! There's a lot of them, small but neat - one floor - a startup home, each with a nice lot.

What year was your home built in Joan? I can believe that families doubled up - they did in the depression I know. But after WWII there was a huge building boom which triggered the prosperous 1950's. My husband for a short time after the war worked with a lumber company and learned so much about building; then was employed by a firm that actually built the homes - he was their estimator.

Joan, you posed the question; who was the person responsible for introducing the G.I. Bill in Congress? I did some nosing around and learned that according to the 1944 Congressional Record, Congressman John Rankin of Ms introduced it as Bill 3749. Boy that man really did this nation a favor and changed the lives of thousands of veterans and their families. Thank you Mr. Rankin! Credit for finding this fact should go to cwolff@lsu.edu in response to my ASK JEEVES inquiry

I think the GI bill resulted in one of the largest movements of social mobility in our country's history.

I don't have any facts to back this- just a general impression from my experiences following WWII.

It did continue past the Korean war as I used the original bill to get my undergraduate college degree and the Korean War supplied the masters.

As I recall some of the provisions changed, but the results were the same.

Many of the Massachusetts cities and towns sold small plots of land to returning veterans (raffled off) for $1.00 with a limit clause; they had to build a house within one year or lose it. They were called "Veterans Village".

Another way was to buy a house using a 20 yr (3 1/2% interest) GI Mortgage (goverment guarantee). This went up to 4% after a short while. I'm sure this choice was the one mostly used. I did.

Suntaug, Jim! This is fascinating...and so important. Losalbern's post turns our attention to the the beginnings and to the provisions of the GI Bill! I've always associated it with education of course ...and indeed the following sources tell that 8 million veterans received educational benefits within the first seven years of the Bill's signing. It also points out that with the bill, higher educational opportunities opened enrollment to varied socio-economic group than in the past.

GI BILL Provisions

Original GI Bill document

The origins of the bill are also interesting, going back to the experience of the World War I Vets:

The history of the GI Bill in some ways begins with the WWI veterans, who were promised a bonus in 1919 payable in 25 years, 1944, but in 1932 there was a great depression and they were broke. They wanted the bonus immediately. So they marched to Washington. And the bonus marchers were met with military force, led by General Douglas MacAuthur, and major Dwight D. Eisenhower, and Major George S. Patton, the bonus marchers were routed from Washington, it was a terrible, terrible thing. Men who had fought for their country in W.W.I who were being tear gassed and beaten with billyclubs by the military and by the police in Washington in 1932. There was a lot of concern with veterans, because veterans are viewed potentially unstable elements, potentially dangerous people. Because veterans come back to the country. They know how to use arms. They know how to kill people. They are angry. A lot of them feel they have given the best years of their lives to their country, they are not getting much back.

Several sources indicate that businesses and the government anticipated a widespread economic depression after the war and sloth on the part of the World War II Vets...that would be you fellas! They didn't know what you guys! It was the American Legion that is credited with the main features of the GI Bill and pushing this "readjustment act" through Congress to avoid trouble.

Suntaug, that is great information! The Veteran's Villages sound a lot like the one Ella is describing! Are you still living in your house? Did you have help building within the year? There must have been lots of construction work at the time! Booming...no sloth among these Vets!

"In the first 10 years of the GI Bill, there were well over 4 million homes bought with VA loans. And the suburbs is where a lot of them want to go. Because these are nice houses. They are away from the cities"

Ella, my own house was built in 1923. If only these walls could speak! Besides being slightly remodeled to house another family on the second floor right after the war, it was also considered haunted enough to have undergone an exorcism several years later. Neighbors continue to inform me of both.

I own the house I live in now thanks to the GI Bill. It's my second house. On the first house I paid 4 1/2% interest.

Robby

Didn't build my own - no luck at raffle so bought one at the 4% interest. In 1953 a $15,000 house became a mortgage free $45,000 house, which I sold in 1978, with added family room, raised roof to make larger rooms and extra bathroom and now in 2000 sells for $200,000. Live in a condominium free of lawn care, painting, etc.. Must leave - will return after Labor Day. Please excuse.

I had a disastrous experience in college in 1940. Had to beg my way back into that same University in 1947 to convince the Dean of Admissions that I wasn't a dumb 18 year old kid anymore. He put me on probation for a year; any grade less that a "B" and I was gone.. I worked my tail off and wound up with a bachelors.(Yet another second chance!) But what a difference in the post war school atmosphere. We veterans outnumbered the non-vets about 2 to 1. And everybody studied and worked and was extremly serious about getting that education. Hardly any fooling around. Grade point averages were high and competition was steep. It was a great atmosphere! It certainly changed my life. I would never have been able to get that degree without the G.I. Bill. Thank you again, Congressman John Rankin!

Joan, it's been the weekend, so haven't been able to get any further information on the AMVET Village, but I'm going to persist. A history course here is what we are having!

However, my BIL remembers Quonset huts put up on campuses for living arrangements for the returning G.I.'s who were attending college and couldn't find housing. Anyone remember those? Universities must have been very crowded at the time and I wonder how they managed to hire the needed faculty and classrooms for all the veterans who enrolled.

Your house is haunted Joan? We must hear more of this tale - who is haunting it and why? Keep talking to the neighbors!

Next year we will have lived in our house for 41 years - and I'm ready for a condo, but my husband isn't. A couple of years ago when I cleaned out the kitchen cupboards thoroughly (I hate the job and don't do it often), on the side of one drawer I wrote a little personal family history and often wonder if it will ever be found and read.

Joan, you must do the same in your house somewhere and tell the haunting story!

Ella, when my ex-husband was in graduate school in the early 50's, we lived in a small barracks apartment in College Park at the University of Maryland that had been built in the 40's for returning GI's.

Mal

Losalbern: When I attended college in 1946 (vets 2 to 1 as you say), the young guys wanted us to join their Frat and be ready to be "paddled" as we were accepted. We laughed at them!! They couldn't visualize what we had just been through.

Robby

Before WWII I was a guitarist and singer with small bands. When I was 14, and still in school, I wore a tux and passed for 21 and played with the Cec Hurst band at the Marigold Ballroom in Mpls., Minn; until one night one of my teachers danced by and spotted me. She called my mother in, and that was the end of that job (but it was fun and the girls were beeeoootiful!) Later,I played for a short time with Ozzie Nelson and did two shows with Tommy Dorsey. I couldn't get hired permanently by any of the "big guys" because I was of draft age and they were already losing all thier men to the Army. Before my own draft number came up, I joined the Navy and could have stayed Stateside for the duration at Farragut, Idaho in the ship's company band (and played with a bunch of the famous musicians who joined up), but, believe it or not, I was "burnt-out" on music for the time-being (at only 18??). It wasn't the music, it was the "life-style" I was tired of (that's where I learned to drink and smoke). Sooo I wanted to learn something else. The Navy gave me their apptitude test and I came out as a Radioman, reading Morse Code (that's musical, and I really learned to swing those dots-and-dashes!) Now, at 77 years old, I still play guitar and sing---for my own amazement. One of the ironies is that I had met Eddy Peabody (who was a Navy Commander in charge of bands, etc.) at Great Lakes Training Station during the war; later (in the 50's), I had him as a guest on one of my Television shows, and we played . . .guess what? Of course..."The World Is Waitiing For The Sunrise." Ahhh, the good old days, huh? (But then, someday THESE will be the "good old days.")

The climax to all of this? I ended up with the Amphibious Forces at Omaha Beach on my 20th birthday, June 6, 1944.

GadZooks! How I've carried on. . .

WHOMI: You're the first person I'be heard in a long while point out the similarity between Morse Code and music. I played music all my boyhood life and when I took the radio aptitude test in the Army came out with a high score for that very same reason. You don't count the dots and dashes. You just feel the rhythm.

What a birthday gift you had!!

Robby

WHOMI:

"One of the ironies is that I had met Eddy Peabody (who was a Navy Commander in charge of bands, etc.) at Great Lakes Training Station during the war; later (in the 50's), I had him as a guest on one of my Television shows"

You had a television show? Do you want to tell us the name of it? Is it possible we might have seen it? And are we to guess who you are? I love mysteries.

Regarding memories, may I make a slight diversion which is perhaps not a diversion at all. We veterans of World War II have memories of our own WWII experiences. However, many of us are children of World War I veterans and have related memories. For example:--

I remember in our small town watching the annual Memorial Day parade (as was held in towns all across America) and seated in the car as the Parade Marshall at the front of the parade one could always find Mr. Ricadelli. He was a veteran of the Spanish-American war which took place in 1898. I remember the "Forty and Eight" (named after the French box cars which held forty men and eight horses), the fun sub-unit of the American Legion, livening up the parade with their trucks made up to look like steam engines and which reared up on their back wheels and blew their whistles. And, of course, there was the Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW) with their fun unit, the Cooties, which from time to time held their meetings called "Scratches."

I remember vividly the American Legion parade held in New York City in 1937 (1938?), possibly the largest parade ever held in the nation. It lasted, I believe, 28 hours. Minute after minute, hour after hour, throughout the day and the night, units of the American Legion paraded down Fifth Avenue without a single moment without someone parading by. One could only cross the Avenue by dodging the various bands, etc. Those Legionnaires whose time to march hadn't yet come or who had already paraded, spent their time dropping paper bags of water out of hotel windows on attractive girls passing by.

I remember sitting at home singing World War I songs with my father and can still sing them to this day. I remember my father, a 100% disabled veteran, being picked up at our house to go to Disabled American Veterans (DAV) meetings where he could reminisce with other disabled veterans. Always on our table at home were copies of the the Legion, VFW, and DAV magazines. I bring up this subject because occasionally the remark is made that we World War II veterans are dying daily. However, with us are dying the memories of World War I.

We are a link.

Robby

Robby, your memories of your dad bring back so many wonderful memories that I have of my own dad. He was a true hero--not only in the Army but to his own family. I think every standard of living set in our family was an attempt by his three sons and one daughter to live up to him.

When you speak of the American Legion parades I have these instant mind pictures of watching my dad, standing militarily straight and tall, marching in perfect cadence with three other vets who formed the color guard for the Legion drum and bugle corps. He almost never spoke of his battlefield experiences--which were extensive--but he never missed a Legion meeting or a parade. His pride, and the pride of his fellow Legionaires just beamed out. What happened to that patriotic pride in being American, do you suppose?

Phyll

American Legion Parades, and especially American Legion Conventions were also a time of debauchery, public drunkeness, and general hell-raising including degrading sexual harrasment of women in the streets while local law enforcement looked the other way.

We tend to be a little selective in our memories at times.

The pride and patriotism was there (and still is) but it was not the only aspect of such events.

Jim: Of course the law enforcement officers looked the other way -- they were veterans and Legionnaires too.

Robby

Jim: Of course the law enforcement officers looked the other way -- they were veterans and Legionnaires too.

In the case I had in mind they weren't. But that was not related to my point. I always viewed and still do the Legion as as a group of reactionary no-nothing good old boys and never joined.

There was actually follwing WWII a very left oriented veterans organization formed and I can't recall the name. I didn't join that one either but my political leanings were more sympathetic to it than to the Legion.

I subscribe to the theory that "partiotism is the refuge of a scoundrel"- we have plenty of examples in modern political history.

John Kerry, my hero, is not one of them.

Jim Olson....I attended many Illinois state and national American Legion Conventions in the past, and unfortunately, some of what you said is true. Some Legionairs used the Conventions as an excuse to overindulge and act like asses. However, when it came to parades, they were dead serious. I don't ever recall seeing a drunk or disorderly parader. At least my Posts members were serious having won the State championship for color guards several times in recent years.

Our Post did have good clean fun with no demeaning of women or injury to anyones pride. I recall one particular state convention in Peoria Illinois when we stopped a taxi in the main intersection of town, opened both back doors and a group of us continued to enter one side and exit the other for quite some time,to the delight and entertainment of onlookers. Jim I hope this is not the type of behavior you were referring to. If so sorry we offended you.

Prior to WWII I too recall the great National American Legion Parades, in partcular one in Chicago sometime in the early 30's. I think it must have been 1933. It too lasted more than 24 hours.

I have been a member of the American Legion for almost 50 years, and am proud of what the organization has done for veterans of all wars. I note that many of you here were able to get your education thru the GI Bill. The Legion played a large roll in getting that program established. I like many others was able to get a low 4% loan to buy my first house thru the GI Bill.

The Legion has been active in the political arena over the years lobbying Congress on behalf of all veterans. Overall the good they have done far outweighs the bad actions of a few drunks at local and national conventions.

A good number of the American Legion and the VFW and other groups were against the Merchant Marines getting a veteran status. I happen to have served in the Merchant Mariens during WW2. It is a mute point for me as I was in the Army also but I like to place my bets with the Merchant Marines.

In the introductory pages to both books, Tom Brokaw described the greatest generation as "the men and women came of age during the Great Depression and the Second World War and went on to build modern America."

As Robby has pointed out on at least one occasion, World War II was but four or five years of the lives of this young generation of Americans. But what defining years!

But their contributions did not end with the signing of the peace treaties. As we have heard all too often, many still suffer from the horrendous experience. Many went on to fight the war in Korea, and many returned home, not to rest on laurels, but went on with their next great contribution - the rebuilding of America!

So, it was the GI Bill that gave the boast, provided the educational tools to get started. And now we know the part the American Legion played in instigating and getting this bill passed.

As willie says,

"the Legion has been active in the political arena over the years lobbying Congress on behalf of all veterans. Overall the good they have done far outweighs the bad actions of a few drunks at local and national conventions."

Let's give credit where credit is due! And let's look closely at what the generation of young folks did with the education they received because of this Bill. Did they (you) settle into your own economically comfortable existence or did you turn your free time into community service, which is said to be the hallmark of your generation? Ben Bradlee writes of his return home and the conversations on the ship with other young veterans who were determined to make their lives worth something for others. Other accounts tell of the determination to live worthy lives in the name of fallen buddies.

Would be interested to hear of your own community service following the war. What sorts of activities were you involved with? What wonderful resources you are and we can always count on you to call it as you saw it then! Thank you all so much!

www.clever.mag has published a short story I wrote recently about a reunion in London this summer with the other three living Wrens from our group in Scotland. It's light-hearted but nostalgic and you may enjoy the memories.

It seems like I am frequently behind the curve when it comes to topics currently under discussion. And I know that this subject has been widely discussed before. However, today's (Aug 30) Los Angeles Times carried a commentary by Edward W. Lefever entitled "Why Agonize Over Hiroshima, Not Dresden?" . I think this is an excellent and thoughtful article about war in general and I challenge you to pull it up on your screen. HTTP://WWW.LATIMES.COM/NEWS/COMMENT/ losalbern

One could add Tokyo to that list as it suffered fire storms similar to Dresden-

Hamburg as well.

But Hiroshima stands alone because of the lasting nature of the human damage and misery.

War is hell wherever and however exprienced.

John Hershey gave us awareness of the hell of Hiroshima

"Slaughterhous Five" made us aware of Dresden

Nobdy did a comparable job on the Rape of Nanking- another of the hellish events of war.

Dear Losalbern, please do not ever feel "behind the eightball" here! While it is true that we are moving through the books linnearly, (because we don't know how else to handle the two books under one discussion), we realize that memories tend to flood back any way they please and we WELCOME those memories even MORE than the particular chapter under discussion.

As we are learning here, this war not only defined the lives of the generation, had far-reaching effects on generations to come, BUT, in so many ways,is still directly affecting many people today. Let's post ALL thoughts and memories at ALL times, as they come! Agreed???
(before we forget them!)

Foley, your piece is lovely...with your own special light touches! Being together reminiscing probably brought back so much of the detail after so many years!

"What was that song Vera Lynn used to sing? Remember - We'll Meet Again. Don't Know Where, Don't Know When... As we hug and embrace, promising to write, and keep in touch, I say a silent thank you that I have managed to return at least one more time.
...It was such a short period in our life, those few years in bonnie Scotland, but one we will never forget. It taught us a lot, how to live together without too much friction, and prepared us for the joys and troubles we would certainly experience"

I think that this bonding experience and the lessons learned, "living together without too much friction" explains a lot of the post-war mind-set here in the US too! Thank you so much for sharing it with us. Here's a direct link to the delightful account:

4 Little Wrens are WE

Why Agonize Over Hiroshima, Not Dresden?
By ERNEST W. LEFEVER

As we celebrate the 55th anniversary of the end of World War II, we might well look at America's fascination with guilt feelings about selected past sins. Why do some Americans feel guilty about our justified bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which immediately killed 120,000 Japanese (some estimates are significantly higher), and not about the unjustified bombing of Dresden, which killed 135,000 Germans?
City bombing is always brutal, but sometimes it is a tragic necessity. In a just war, and certainly the Allied cause was just, all military action should be designed to destroy the enemy's capacity and will to continue fighting.
First, the key facts about the bombing of Dresden on the night of February 13-14, 1945, 10 weeks before Germany's surrender, when everyone knew that Germany was beaten: Dresden was a beautiful Baroque city known as the Florence of the north. It had no war industry and little military value. Its population of 630,000 had been doubled by German refugees, mainly peasants from Silesia fleeing the Red Army.
The concerted British and American attack dropped 650,000 incendiary bombs, causing a firestorm engulfing eight square miles and killing an estimated 135,000 men, women and children.
Why visit such carnage on the cusp of Germany's defeat? Some analysts say it was merely a continuation of the Allied strategy to bring Germany to its knees, but a postwar U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey concluded that such bombing did little to erode civilian morale or impede war production. Others say it was vindictive anger over Hitler's bombing of London and other British cities.
But Hitler's barbarity did not justify the fiery destruction of Dresden. Dresden was not a legitimate military target. British historian Paul Johnson has called the bombing "the greatest Anglo American moral disaster of the war against Germany." Yet few Americans have expressed shame or guilt.
So why do guilt-prone Americans continue to fault their government for Hiroshima while ignoring Dresden? Catholic philosopher Peter Kreeft recently called Hiroshima a satanic act, placing it in the same moral category as Auschwitz, the Bataan Death March, the Gulag, the Ukraine famine, the Rwanda tribal massacres, Pol Pot's killing fields and Mao's Great Leap Forward.
Most historians render a different verdict. They agree on the basic military situation in August 1945:
* America had broken the Japanese military code and President Truman had no substantial evidence that Japan was about to surrender.
* Though Tokyo and many other Japanese cities had been firebombed, Japan had made elaborate plans to resist an American invasion. It had assembled a Kamikaze suicide armada and mobilized 1 million soldiers and civilians equipped with a variety of suicide devices to stop the Americans on the beaches. Japan had a vast arsenal of chemical and bacterial weapons it likely would have used.
* The atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed 120,000 civilians and military personnel immediately, according to Paul H. Nitze's postwar bombing survey. But these terrible weapons ended the war. Japan's expansionist empire, which had slaughtered millions of innocent Chinese and other Asians, was brought to its knees.
* The war's abrupt end spared some 400,000 American prisoners of war and civilian detainees in Japanese hands, all of whom were to be executed had the U.S. invaded. The U.S. Pacific command estimated that at least 500,000 Americans and three times as many Japanese would have died in an invasion. Thus, the atom bombs may have saved 2 million lives, mostly Japanese.
Why, then, is the atom bombing demonized when the March 9, 1945, firebombing of Tokyo, which killed 85,000 Japanese in one night, is not? The Tokyo raid and other U.S. air raids already had claimed some 500,000 Japanese victims. What is the moral distinction between killing people by an atomic blast or by a rain of fire bombs?
All war is hell, but our cause was just. We should be proud that America and its allies liberated hundreds of millions from the brutal empires of Hirohito and Hitler. Beating our breasts over Hiroshima distorts history, but an expression of contrition over the unnecessary firebombing of Dresden redeems it and us.

Jim, boy are you right, "war is hell!" Your thoughts on the author's last paragraph? We had a delightful woman participate in Stud's Terkel's The "Good" War discussion last year...Britta was a young girl in Dresden during the bombing. I'll move her account over here this afternoon.

Okay, Here is Britta's post. It's hard to read, to believe and this wonderful SNetter married an American and lives in the US today!

Yes I was down there (Dresden), 11 years old, while the sky was lit up like with christmas trees from tracers and then the planes came and we all huddled near the coal and potatoes in the cellar. It was an awful noise, when the bombs started falling. Our house was on the outskirts of Dresden, a little village called Niedersedlitz, and we missed a direct hit, but we had structural and glass damage and it shook pretty badly.
The next morning my father took me with him to look for his sister, who lived in the centre of Dresden, but we didn't get very far. The Zoo animals were all running loose and there were fleeing people and rubble all over. Then the alarms sounded again and the next raid started, this one by the US. We barely made it home.
They rained liquid phosphorus on all the people and a great firestorm started. The British had come during the night, but the Americans could see all they had done. One bomber flew away from the inferno and unloaded his bombs in a straight line away from the center. He ran out of bombs a few hundred yards from our house. My father measured the distance between the craters. We were lucky.
When the survivors started coming out of the city, many ended up in our house. We still had water. They stayed for as long as they had to. My father brought a llama back with him from his search for his sister. It lived in our garden for a long time. Father's sister was buried beneath her house. Everybody was in shock.
I think the figure of the dead was over 60 Thousand, because the railroad station was full of refugees from Silesia. It received a direct hit, everyone was killed. The burning of Dresden was a great loss to the whole world, because it was an art centre and no military targets were there. It was destroyed on the 13th of February 1945 in retaliation for the destruction of Coventry, England by the Germans. Now Dresden and Coventry are sister cities.
There is healing, if not comprehension. I became a refugee myself. A nasty designation to hang on anyone. People are afraid of refugees because they take up space, food and jobs in the established areas. My heart bleeds for the thousands that are now in that situation. I remember everything too well. These experiences become part of the fabric that is one's life.
1990 I returned to Dresden for the first time since our flight in December 1947. I stood in front of our house and wept with nostalgia. Nothing had changed. It just had grown old, like me. Under the communist regime there was no money to fix or improve anything. It was as if the whole village had been in a long, long sleep and when they awoke, the world had changed. It is hard for them to catch up.
Last year I returned again to my old hometown and was happy to see the big improvement. They are working hard to rebuild that beautiful city and in a few places it is rising again, like a phoenix out of the ashes. I prayed so hard, that there would never be another war. I guess I didn't pray hard or loud enough, but then again, 1000 years are but a blink of an eye in the eternity of God. Maybe he'll get the message eventually.

Beating our breasts over Hiroshima distorts history, but an expression of contrition over the unnecessary firebombing of Dresden redeems it and us.

I don't think breast beating is very productive of much of anything.

Nor is a "holier than thou" retrospect.

Least productive of all is debating which of innumberable incidents to do it over. There is a surplus of them and we are constantly reminded of our ability to regress to inhumanity.

I tend to go with Britta- the important thing is to work however we might to a situation where we recgonize the humanity of everyone and treat each other accordingly.

That is where the debate should be- how to accomplish that.

It isn't easy and there don't seem to be any clear answers.

But the goal is essential.

I agree, Jim, if Britta can get past it, we can follow her lead, get on with life, with rebuilding, with hope and determination that such senseless acts of war and inhumanity will not be repeated! This is probably how the returning Vets were able to get the horrors of war behind them as they came home to rebuild this country!

It's surprising how this discussion continues to shapen the consciousness of so many WWII related stories...from Ann Landers, to these two book reviews of Margaret Salinger"s Dream Catcher - on her reclusive father, JD Salinger - in this morning's Washington Post...

The Writer's Daughter

Dream-Catcher

From the first, we get this bibliographical information:

"We learn about his childhood as the son of a Jewish businessman and Irish Catholic mother on the Upper West Side; as a student at military school; and as a soldier. He was in counterintelligence during World War II. He saw some heavy combat. He helped liberate a concentration camp, but since he and Peggy are not speaking, she has not asked him the name of the camp.

He arrested a member of the Nazi party, named Sylvia. Then he married her. "Sylvia hated Jews as much as he hated Nazis," Peggy writes.

This jumped out of the second one:

. It is helpful, for example, to be told that World War II, in which Salinger served while his writing apprenticeship was underway, "became the point of reference that defined everything else" in Salinger's life; certainly it had never occurred to me to think of him as a "war novelist," yet in some important respects he fits that description.

Dear Ann (Landers),

Shortly after Pearl Harbor, I joined the Navy and volunteered for submarine duty. A few years ago, CBS did a two-hour documentary called "Victory in the Pacific" and didn't even mention the submarine. Tom Brokaw failed to interview a single submarine veteran in "The Greatest Generation," his best-selling book about World War II.
We don't ask much, Ann, just that people know that,even though we were only 1.6 % of the Navy, we sank more than 30% of the Japanese Imperial Navy and 60% of the merchant marine. This included four large aircraft carriers, four small aircraft carriers, three heavy cruisers, eight light cruisers, 43 destroyers, 23 submarines and 2,400 merchant ships carrying fuel, food, ammunition, supplies and troops. We laid mines, hauled ammumition, transported troops, deployed secret agents, delivered guerilla leaders and rescued refugees, nurses and generals, including Lt.j.g. George Bush and 502 other downed fliers.

Leave us out of "the Greatest Generation" if you must, and forget about me. I did only what a lot of other young Americans did. But please remember those who served on the 52 submarines that never came home. It would sure help to see this letter in your column.

- John Chestara, Valley Falls, NY

Will someone please let John know we've posted his letter here?

Dear Friends,

We have so enjoyed your participation this discussion for the last five months! Would you like to meet some of the people you have met here?

Each year, Senior Net Books & Lit. gathers in a different city, hoping to meet more of you wonderful people we talk to on-line during the year! This has been such a great experience, we'd love to have you come along.

Earlier we talked of gathering in New Orleans to meet with the author Stephen Ambrose and visit the DDay museum. Dr. Ambrose, as you may know is in the process of writing a new book on the South Pacific during World War II (he has already written Citizen Soldier on the European theater) There was some interest among this group at the time, but not enough Vets, Dr. Ambrose's primary interest.

Today, we are again considering a gathering either in New Orleans or Austin, Texas, each hosting spectacular literary festivals. If we were to go to New Orleans, we certainly would include a guided tour of the DDay Museum as well as some of the Literary events.

If you are interested, you are welcome to stop into the planning discussion for the 2001 gathering and post your comments too... We ALWAYS find CHEAP digs (albeit clean and safe) and the same with meals...don't let that be a concern.

Here is the link for the planning discussion for

Bookfest 2001

As we wind down here, we are still interested in hearing from you, your pre-war, war-time and now your post-war experiences! Your shared memories have meant so much to us!

I vote for Austin, Texas, for obvious reasons! (although New Orleans is probably a better choice in terms of the D-Day Museum). But Austin is a great literary town.

I would vote for Boston. Can't get to the other places.

Joan, I have to decline either place. Physical limitations kind of leaves me out of something like this. Best wishes to all who attend. I think it's a great idea.

I wish my three brothers and a host of others had lived long enough to read this book and know the years they spent separated from family and all they held dear were appreciated and recognized.

When you look at the world globe and mark the places this war was fought and the number of people it affected it was truly a WORLD WAR. My oldest brother served in India, the second in Europe and the third on the sea on destroyer escort duty. All my life I have remembered the full pages in the St Louis Globe Democrat newspaper with small stamp size photos of the those that served and those that never came back. They ran every Sunday week after week and year after year. Remembering those photos I now realize they were only a very small part of the multitude that served from many countries and the many who were maimed and the many who never returned.

Mr Brokaw undertook an awesome task and did it well. It is my sincere hope that younger generations will read and recognize the legacy from THE GREATEST GENERATION and I pray no one will ever have to write a book about another Great Generation.

For all who have shared their stories here, their thoughts and expierences my deepest appreciation.

May your days be filled with peace.

Sincerely Anna Alexander

Anna:

Your words are so true and they are obviously spoken from the heart. The war was indeed a global one affecting practically everyone in the world and especially those who had family members who were in the Service as you did. And the fact that your three brothers are no longer with you is most definitely painful.

Tom Brokaw's task was most certainly an awesome one. Hopefully, through the efforts of those of us in the older age bracket, those in the younger generation will not only read his book but will read through the thousands of postings that were made in this forum in Senior Net.

Thank you for that sharing.

Robby

One thing that has become crystal clear from these postings, is that war, long after the munitions have rusted away, is still very much alive for many and we need to keep them in our thoughts and prayers - and spread the word whenever we have the opportunity so that their great sacrifices were not in vain.......

All of you may be interested in joining us in our discussion of Ben Bradlee's book A GOOD LIFE as we have just been notified by phone that Mr. Bradlee will be joining us in the discussion. Perhaps you know that he is a WWII veteran, serving on a destroyer in the South Pacific and was also Executive Editor of the Washington Post during the Watergage years, during which time the Post won 18 Pulitizer Prizes and redefined the way news is reported, published, and read.

We are not sure when Mr. Bradlee will join in, but do join us at any time. We are now discussing his experiences in the Navy. Click here:

A GOOD LIFE by Ben Bradlee

I would like to express my sincere thanks and appreciation for all of you who took part in this great discussion. It has been quite a privilege to read the stories that you posted here. I found many of them entertaining and others to be heart-rending, while still others were quite humorous. However, all of them were very interesting. I learned much from them. I hope you learned some things from my posts. These posts brought back memories I had forgotten about. And, in a way, I was able to relive the days of my youth that are all so long in the past. Many of your posts invoked nostalgic thoughts so vivid that it seemed I was there once more. Thank you for that.

I would especially like to thank Joan Pearson and Robby Iadeluca for leading this discussion. Their lead kept this discussion lively and diverse. They never let it lag or grow tiresome. Joan, Robby, THE GREATEST GENERATION thanks you for the many, many hours you spent responding to our posts and questions. Without you two this discussion would never have reached the high plateau that now will be the bench mark of other discussions. It’s going to be a tough act to follow.

And, of course, sincere thanks to SeniorNet for making all this possible.

Bill H

Bill H:

How kind of you!

I would like to state what I have on previous occasions and that is that a Discussion Leader without any one participating is a very lonely and useless person. I think of that old Chinese proverb which says: "A leader is a person who watches which way the people are going and then gets out in front."

The pace of this forum has never stopped or even slowed down and it has been exceedingly difficult to even keep up with the throng much less get out in front. The comments in this discussion have helped me to realize the meaning of my own personal spot as part of the Great Generation. I will never be the same person as I once was. THANK YOU!!

Robby

Hey Bill H. You have expressed my thoughts about this posting site exactly! This was my first experience and participation in this kind of message exchange and believe me I learned from everyone who posted. Such nice people! I feel like I have just met a whole new bunch of friends. Yesterday, I learned for the first time what a home page was and that was extremely interesting. I give you, Robby and Joan, credit for all the effort you put into making this Greatest Generation gathering a worthwhile experience. As for you Bill, amen brother!

You are the "greatest"! Tom B. was right! I cannot begin to thank the individuals who made these years come alive! I wish we could have gone on forever!

I intend to be on the mall in DC for the groundbreaking of the WWII Memorial in November, and you can bet that each and every one of you will be on my mind!

Now for the big question? How do we stay in touch? Where do we go from here? This discussion will find a new home in SN's World War II Memories folder...we'll link you there before we close the book discussion. Would you like to hear more of SeniorNet's offerings and be on a mailing list for upcoming Book discussions like this one?

Keep in touch! Take care!

Love and gratitude,
Joan

Thanks for the memories.

Yes, thank you so very, very much, Robby and Joan and all who participated in this discussion. It has been a wonderful experience for me, and I feel as if I've made some good friends because of it. The sharing done in this discussion has been remarkable, something I won't soon forget.

Mal

Well this has been an exciting experience for me.I now understand the urge Mr. Brokaw had to publish that first book, and then the second. And I understand my own reactions better now too. In the long run I have enjoyed all the posts. I now realize the true greatness of the generation I belong too. It was a while coming to me the way it finally has. I have for so long looked more on the dark side of the coin it has been a blessing to participate in this discussion. It brought me to tears all the time, remembering those difficult days. But now I am glad as my memories have taken me to the good times too. Adious and thank you Robby and Joan for being such good discussion leaders, mostly I thank all whose stories I read. Faith

Sometimes the memories were warm and funny, sometimes painful and difficult to read about and deal with but all of them of great value to me. Thanks to EVERYONE who shared them.

Most of all, thanks to Joan and Robby for a really good job really well done.

Phyll

Before this site shuts down, June and I wish to thank Foley for giving us access to her heart warming story about the reunion of the four Wrens. June wept..

All of you have said what I would like to say! TO THE VETERANS - It's been a privilege to know you and hear your stories. God Bless you!

TO ALL THE OTHERS AND ESPECIALLY JOAN and ROBBY! Thank you both, I've read all of them, responded to a few and loved this discussion!

As this Round Table discussion comes to an end, I have been thinking about what I have learned from my participation in it. At the outset I must state that this has been a real education for me in many different ways. To me, what I have bought to this discussion is nowhere near as important as what I am taking with me as I leave it.

While each of us will always look upon the words we have written, as well as the words that we have read, as observations on events on a particular period of time that had tremendous impact on our lives, I will always feel that I have been privileged to exchange my thoughts and ideas with all of you.

I, along with many of you, have opened our hearts and our minds, laden with so many memories, to others in ways that we may not have thought we could have ever done before. While some of those memories were good and some bad, each contributed, in its own way, to the weaving of a fabric of experience that was created from an intensity of emotion that I truly believe created some kind of a bond between us. It is a bond that I, for one, will never forget! That bond must include the many friendships in spirit and camaraderie, which did not exist before the discussions in which we participated.

As my final observation in this discussion, I must state that I do not, nor have I ever truly believed, that we are the greatest generation. That statement is based on my belief that humanity, in each and every epochal stage of its’ development, has always managed to convince itself that truly, it was the greatest generation, based on what it was able to achieve.

From the beginning of time, as we know it on this earth, all creatures great and small have, at one time or another committed an action that was of such a magnitude of greatness that they were convinced of its everlasting imprint on the sands of time. There is, however, no permanence in the consistency of the sands of time, as we and those who come after us will discover in due course.

The reality in every millennium that man survives will always be that the greatest generation is yet to come. The glory and the wonders that man will achieve in the future are those which we are incapable of visualizing within the limitations of our intellect and humanitarian development at this time and in this place.

The best that we can achieve, is the hope that a day will come when a future scholar, in examining the musty pages of what we have written here, will wonder at how a comparatively primitive predecessor such as ourselves, was capable of making such astute and intuitive observations about our own importance and significance in our own time.

May God bless you all....each and everyone!

Mike

Before we close if any one is interested in reading about the electronics of WW2 I would suggest two books. (1) The Invention That Changed The World..How a small group of radar pioneers won the second wold war and launched a technological revolution....(2) MITRE The First Twenty Years. I was envolved with this and I think a lot of people will find it interesting. God bless all.

To Losalbern - thank you for your sweet remarks about my short story of my reunion with my three old friends. Although such a few years, three and a half, the navy experience taught me so much, it brought me my American husband also. I have written the memoir of those times, self-published in fact. If you would like to have a copy, please e-mail at tricia@nac.net with address, etc. I enjoyed participating in a small way in The Good War and the Greatest Generation. Pat

I can't help but think about the CAUSES of the Great Depression-The free market economy? Capitalism that saw boom and bust cycles throughout our American history? (That's the real reason for the pioneers going west, they couldn't pay the taxes on their mid-west farms during the great bank crash of 1837 and they lost their land. I know because several of my pioneer ancestors did just that. Start all over out west.)

And the war in the Pacific? European and American expansion into the Pacific rim and China-(I had two US Army Infantry uncles stationed in China during the early 1920's. What where they doing there?). With France in Vietnam, the Netherlands in Indonesia, America in the Phillipines and other countries in the Pacific, Great Britain in Malasia and just about everywhere else. Japan's war with Russian expansion.

And who financed Hitler? He certainly could not have had a backing without the industrialists financing him. Krups, and all of the other big companies wanting to get rid of the left-wing socialist threat? (The Russian revolution frighening them into bank-rolling the Nazi Party?) Was WWII just an extension of WWI? What about the effects of the Versaille Treaty? We speak of Hitler as if he were some mad dog loose on the world. The German people saw him as a leader who put them back to work at a time when German children were starving.

And Great Britian's control over vast areas and economies? We talk so blithely about those "evil enemies" and how wonderful and patriotic we Americans and British are. But our enemies felt the same about themselves-and us. As the song goes, money, money, money makes the world go round. Economics are the reasons for Great Depressions -and wars. Not evil people and good people. No one seems to ask WHY did we have the Great Deprsssion -followed by WWII. Its economics, pure and simple.

On that note I am toddling off to bed because I get up in the morning to go off to a great job at the end of the world even though I AM a senior citizen

What would life in America be like without WWII? I remember 1937-1938-1939 as being especially tough years in this country. Did WWII save us from a total economic collapse? I don't usually go for "what if's" but that question has always intriged me. Now I really am off to work.

Mike speaks for many of us when he says...

"To me, what I have bought to this discussion is nowhere near as important as what I am taking with me as I leave it."

And we can ALL agree that Mike has brought much to the table here. The numerous posts that brought back the details, memories triggering more memories! Yes, it has been extremely discomforting on many occasions to become privvy to the raw memories, the emotions, the nightmares. I have learned that for a great many who have managed to put those years behind, that it doesn't take too much to bring forth details and memories that have been lurking under the surface. Not just for those who faced combat, but those who faced the wrenching poverty from the Depression, through the war years, and the strain on relationships, the loss...unforgettable. Heartbreaking. And then there's the humor. The humor of this generation, the ability to take things as they come, to move on in spite of the heartbreak...this same humor got us through the rough parts.

There aren't words to thank all of you for what you have contributed...from the "olden days" throughout this discussion. Yes, I feel a bond has been forged. Not only among the "greatest" generation, but among those of us who follow, who never really considered WHY we have grown in a world without the deprivation and concerns that you did. It's been said. We will continue to say.

THANK YOU!

SPOOKS has recommended two books which may be of interest:

"If any one is interested in reading about the electronics of WW2 I would suggest two books. (1) The Invention That Changed The World..How a small group of radar pioneers won the second world war and launched a technological revolution....(2) MITRE The First Twenty Years. I was envolved with this and I think a lot of people will find it interesting."

The second one, on the MITRE corporation is unfortunely out of print, but did find an interesting writeup you can read here on
The Invention that Changed the World

Thanks, SPOOKS!

******************************************

While in the SEARCH mode - for those of you who are following the World War II Memorial proposed for the Mall in Washington, there have been some developments. I'm planning on attending the groundbreaking ceremonies in November; just wondering WHERE that will be. A post writer has an interesting proposal

A Compromise for the Mall

Some excerpts from the article:

Last week the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation made public its letter on the subject to Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbitt. This remarkable document, which has received far too little attention, not merely leaves no doubt that the plan as it now exists is unacceptable and must be rejected; it also lays the groundwork upon which a compromise can be struck.

Four members of the council held a public hearing two weeks ago. It turned out to be a five-hour session in which the overwhelming majority of testimony was strongly opposed to the design by Friedrich St.Florian and its location at the site on the National Mall now occupied by the Rainbow Pool.
"First, the council notes its strong support for a long overdue memorial to honor those who served in the armed forces during World War II and to commemorate our country's participation in the war. There is no question that this defining event of the 20th century, and the American people's pivotal role in it, warrant commemoration by a memorial commensurate with their effort and sacrifice. Nevertheless, the council believes that the World War II Memorial, as now proposed, has serious and unresolved adverse effects on the preeminent historic character of the National Mall."

She also said that "the council, from its first involvement, has accepted that it is possible to design a World War II Memorial on this site that would harmonize with its historic surroundings." In other words, the problem as the council sees it is not with the site but with the design.

This from author of article, Jonathon Yardley: Those of us who have opposed this proposal should back off our insistence that the Mall be inviolate; those who support it should back off St.Florian's monstrously inappropriate design. We should devise a plan that, rather than producing what Slater called "unacceptable impacts to the historic properties" of the Mall, would enhance and ennoble it, making it an even better place than it is now."

The rest of the article is the author's fanciful alternative, but it is only his own. The fact is that the Commissions that are involved with the design and location are still duking it out. I haven't even seen plans for the real heart of the Memorial...the text, the museum that was originally proposed. I will keep you apprised of all I hear in this discussion site and hope that you will too...

Ellen, those words sound so very very final. I hope we will continue to hear from you and your trove of memories in the days ahead.

How about it? Were we not on the road to recovery in 1940-41? Or were we already preparing for the war, although we had not yet committed?

What do YOU remember about those years immediately preceding the war? What were YOUR plans?

What of Ellen's questions:

Was WWII just an extension of WWI? What about the effects of the Versaille Treaty? We speak of Hitler as if he were some mad dog loose on the world. The German people saw him as a leader who put them back to work at a time when German children were starving.

And Great Britian's control over vast areas and economies? We talk so blithely about those "evil enemies" and how wonderful and patriotic we Americans and British are. But our enemies felt the same about themselves-and us. As the song goes, money, money, money makes the world go round. Economics are the reasons for Great Depressions -and wars. Not evil people and good people. No one seems to ask WHY did we have the Great Deprsssion -followed by WWII. Its economics, pure and simple.

Do you agree with her? And if you do, how do you connect that concept with the world's troubles today?

Does it have to be either/or? I definitely think Hitler was an evil man with evil purposes. BUT, there is no question that economics do play a part. People go along with evil when they feel threatened economically. If people felt the Jews were getting what they should have gotten, when people felt (and apparently continue to feel) that Blacks are taking jobs they believe rightfully belong to them (or illegal immigrants or name any cultural, religious, or ethnic group), then they may participate in supressing those people. Once supression starts, it's a little easier to carry it a little further and a little further. And then you end up with concentration camps and George Wallace-type tactics.

Big business makes the world go round. If you don't think so I hope you live in Florida so you don't have to pay the oil prices we will pay this winter. I paid $1.06 per gallon last month. This month it is up to $1.38 and expected to go much higher. Have a nice day.

If you're "ONLY" paying $1.38 gallon, you're not doing too badly. I buy the cheapest gas I can find, and a couple of months ago that was $1.49. It has been going down slightly -- most of the "cheaper" stations have it for $1.43 now, but I know a couple of places where I've found it for $1.36 or $1.39. But it's waaaay more than that out in California. I haven't heard recent prices, but a month or so ago it was nearing $2.

Songbird: I believe Spooks is talking about heating oil. Right?

Robby

Ooooops. You mean Spooks needs heating oil in FLORIDA?

Songbird: Better that Spooks speaks for himself but I thought that he was posting from Massachusetts and was telling Ellen that it would be better if she lived in Florida so that she wouldn't have to pay the prices he pays in Massachusetts.

Where are you, Spooks?

Robby

My heating is electricity and a wood stove. I can cook on it if I have to and I have have done just that when one of our winter storms sweeps through here and the power goes out. (Opps, there goes the power again. somebody put the coffe pot over on the wood stove.) I dearly love that little stove, with its crackling wood and golden glow when the rain is beating on the roof, and the surf is up and roaring on the beach and the Canadian geese are flying low overhead honking-away after their Artic summer of raising their young. I like to live where I can make it on my own (tides out-the table is set sort of thing), the kind of life that's simple. Maybe its my Great Depression upbringing.

But I still can't help but ask questions, lots of questions. Such as how can two mothers, both deeply religious and staunch members of the Lutheran church raise their sons under the most difficult depression years and then have them go off to war and fight each other to the death? My daughter's father-in-law was seriously wounded fighting in the German army on the Rhine River at the age of seventeen and my daughter's father fought on the Rhine River with Patton's Third Army. My German grandchildren have grandfathers who actually fought each other during WWII. Now whose being patriotic to which side? You ask an average American on the street about the effects of the Versialles Treaty and they would't even know what you are talking about, but you ask a German and he or she will tell you all about its effect on Europe.

And here's another question that I have. I know, the WWII memorial is not being payed for by tax money BUT how is it that while this huge edifice is going up, veteran hospital and medical aid funding is being cut,-drastically? Wasn't there a promise to military personnel that they would receive life-long medical care if they needed it? Folks, don't get my Navy veteran sister and navy career brothers started on that topic!

And while we are at it, why not build a war memorial to all of the Indian tribes that got the shaft over broken treaties, being displaced, forced on death marches, and had their land and resources grabbed up in just about every corner of this country? I know that story well. Indian reservations are the fifty-first state with all of those resources such as potential strip mining,logging, uranium, oil, natural gas and other goodies for the economic factions of this country to pick off. I worked for the BIA (Nez Perce, Kalispel, Coeur-d'Alene, Nespelem, Wellpinit, Kootenai) and have lived on the Chehalis Reservation. There is not one single treaty in this great land that has not been broken. And the pillage and grabbing is still going on.

Well the world is crazy, not me. So I will poke another piece of wood into my little stove, watch the moon rise over the bay, and listen for the night-flying geese to follow the coast down from the north by the light of that moon. they should be hauling in anytime now.

A beautifully written post. I would just like to tell you that if you ever write the book about your experiences, knowledge, and obviously heartfelt passions, if I am still around, I will be the first one in line to buy it!

Yours is a voice that needs to be heard in all of the areas that you mention and you obviously have the talent to do it so eloquently.

One of the biggest problems that I think we have is that we do not have enough Ellen McFadden's around who can raise their voices in such a manner that they touch our souls as you have touched mine.

God be with you in all your endeavors!

Mike

Ellen:

Not to make you blush too much, but it is people like yourself that made that generation "great."

Well put, Robby! Our Ellen calls it as she sees it! We have been enriched, we are fortunate for these thoughtful posts from her.......and you're no slouch, Mike! Your posts have given us tremendous insight into the thinking of this great generation!

We do have another who is trying to make her way in here. Please give Mary K a big welcome, once she conquers the technology! I'm off to the grocery store and may just miss her. Will be back later!

Robert you are right. I was talking about heating oil and I am from Massachusetts. (next door to historic Lexington where every thing started). Have a great day.P.S. I also have indian blood. One of my relatives were the chief of the tribe in Rhode Island

Spooks: I would appreciate your sharing your Indian heritage in Democracy in America, if you would please.

Robby

The only thing I know is the article my cousin gave me from a local paper from way back how a "Babcock" became chief of a tribe in Rhode Island. If you saw an image of my grandfather on my fathers side you would swear he was an indian. Likewise my cousin up in Lisbon, New Hampshire has the high cheek bones of an indian. I have always wanted to trace the family to see where the indian came in. It seems that is a deep secret that only my cousin will talk about. None of the other relatives will own up to it. I do know that the Babcock line came here around 1640 from England. On my mothers side her parents came from Sweden. I consider myself a hybrid. A mixture of a lot of things. In England the name is spelled Badcock and can be traced to the Knights of The Round Table and the Templars.

This is my first time on senior net chat line and in browsing thru I find that there is very little said about the women in the South Pacific during WWII. I am a WAC that spent 16 months over there and 8 months in war areas. I was with a small contingent that arrived on Leyte, Tacloban to be exact, in January of 1945. Anybody else out there (women of course) that was over there at that time? From there I was sent to Manila and they were still fighting 5 miles outside of town when we got there.

Annree:

Thank you for sharing. We'd appreciate it if you would expand a bit on your experiences in Leyte.

Robby

I spent a year in Manila. However, on the other hand I am a man.

When I lived in Iowa, I had a landlady, (Heidi) who taught German in the junior-high school that my youngest daughter attended. I asked her to watch over my daughter while I went back to Oregon for her father's funeral (the Patton's Third Army infantry sergeant who went in on Omaha Beach and eventually committed suicide) and she told me about her background.

Heidi was born in during the last days of WWII in Germany, where as an infant she had been in her mother's arms when her mother was killed in a bombing raid. Her father was a high official in the SS who found them, his wife dead and his infant daughter still alive. He wrapped Heidi in a blanket and somehow made it through the lines to the American military. He was immediately taken as a prisoner and Heidi was transferred to the Red Cross who shipped her off with other infants to, you guessed it, IOWA where she was adopted by a German speaking farm family (Amish).

Heidi (Miss Iowa of which year I can't remember) was taught to speak and read/write German and was instructed by her adopted parents to write to her father monthly who had received a 20-year prison term. She was even sent to Germany to visit him when he finally got out and before he died.

Heidi got me involved with her exchange program by having me send my youngest daughter off to Germany as an exchange student for 18 months to live with a German family and go to German high school. No public American high school had ever really challenged the brain that lurked under a very pretty teen-age face. She lived with a German family on the island of Norderney with foster parents (The German government required foster parents for such an extended stay.) The foster-father was a veteran of the German army on the Russian front and was one of the very few survivors of the Russian prisoner-of-war camps. When he was nineteen and lay on the ground in sub-zero weather, desperately ill with typhoid fever, two Russian guards came along, pointed to him in a pile of dying German solders and then threw him on an open flat car of the last train of prisoners to be sent back to Germany.

His nurse at the hospital on Norderney was a widow at the age of eighteen who smoked heavily because there was nothing left to eat. The hospital was originally a children's tuberculosis sanitorium that held a submarine base underneath it.

The bathroom of their home was wall-papered with million dollar marks from the Weimar Republic days when the resulting inflation caused by the Versailles Treaty wiped out savings, pensions, insurance and any other form of fixed income. A social revolution that destroyed the most stable elements swept over Germany. (How about that folks, isn't that we are all trying to live on?) Many Jewish bankers and wealthy Jewish businessmen bought up bankrupt homes, farms, businesses, land and as a consequence, a hatred for Jews in general grew that allowed the Nazi party to take action against the general Jewish population.

There was no hot water in the Solaro's family home but for what was heated on the coal stove and in the winter only, when the kitchen was used. My daughter learned very quickly that there is a world outside the USA, and the Solaro's helped her learn about that world, about the Versailles Treaty and what happened to Germany between those wars, when the French army invaded and ocuppied the Rhur in 1923 over a strike.

Hey folks, I keep saying, the world is crazy, not me. I do feel darn lucky for what I have. Here comes that moon over the bay again. Around and around in the universe we go and I go along for the ride.

I wonder, after reading Ellen's detailed and well-thought out posting, if a careful reading of history and a careful study of social psychology by the world's leaders might not help to avoid warfare. The majority of decision makers do not even know what goes on much less having forgotten.

Robby

Iwould love to write about my experience on Leyte but, unfortunately, I am not much of a writer. We arrived in Tacloban in the second week of January, 1945. As I recall there were about 35 of us and we were stationed in a small Catholic Boys' School that had been bombed and no longer in use. We were given a canvas cot, not new as mine even had some slits in it, two army blankets and one mattress cover. That was my entire bedding for the rest of the war as I didn't see a sheet or a pillow until I returned to the States when the war was over.

We had bed check at 10 p.m. because the air raids started around midnight and there might be two or three in one night. We were expected to dash outside and sit beside a foxhole until the all-clear sounded. I say "sit beside" since the foxhole was usually full of water. We ate in a mess hall with the men--bully beef, hard tack and coffee, which had to be mostly chicory. Some days they had bread and that was good.

It sounds like I might be complaining but I'm not. It was the same for everyone. Maybe we grumbled about the food, the mud and the heat; but then we would be invited by a group (usually the Navy) for food and dancing and we would have a good time. Above all I loved to dance and I sure got a lot of that - believe me those fellows could really dance. So you see, along with the bad came some good. It doesn't sound like we worked but we did - every day.

It is strange but as you reminisce incidents keep popping up that you had forgotten - like Tokyo Rose announcing that they knew we were there and we were going to have a present dropped on us - it was dropped but it missed us. I went on a couple of public relation tours - one was covered by "Wing-ding" which I think was connected with the 91st Photo Wing Reconnaissance in the Far East. The other took pictures that were in papers around the U.S. Because I came from a very small town it was surprising the number of letters my Mother received from people that had seen them. All of them were very nice and supportive and I know it made my Mother feel much better about my being in the service.

Later on, when the main grouup of WAC's arrived on Leyte, we moved to Tolosa where we lived in tents right by a beautiful beach, had our own mess hall and life was great.

Now many, many years later one wonders what happened to all of those young fellows you danced, laughed and joked with - where are they? Did they make it? You can only hope they did, got married, raised that family and lived that good life they fought for.

Annree:

For someone who "is not much of a writer," you do exceedingly well! Please tell us about your specific responsibilities.

Robby

Colonel Zemke intended to write this appreciation of the relief of Stalag Luft 1, but unfortunately necessary duties have made this impossible. He has, in his own words, "taken a powder" to make final arrangements with the relieving Soviet forces.

It is therefore my privilege to introduce this Memorial Edition of the BARTH HARD TIMES. During the successes, reverses and stagnant periods encountered during this struggle, our newspaper has faithfully recorded the German war communiques and expanded upon them in capable editorials.

With the redemption of a continent, our exile is ended. Our barbound community will soon be a memory. So, on behalf of Colonel Hubert Zemke and myself, to all our fellow-kriegies: GOOD LUCK... G.C.C.T.Weir etc. etc

Major Braithwaite and Sgt. Korson, our Stalag scouts, raced out to a cross-roads 5 miles south of Barth with the order, "Find Uncle Joe". This was 8 PM May l. They searched southward, defying a rumored Russian curfew which was about as brief and emphatic as their own order: EVERYONE STAY PUT; ANYONE SEEN MOVING WILL BE SHOT ON SIGHT"

........answer the phone and we could break the big news of our presence/ "Try the mayor" they asked the girl (who was still working Barth's phone exchange)' "Not a chance," she said. "Barth's mayor poisoned himself and Stralsund's mayor has sprouted wings."

Scouts Braithwaite and Korson pushed on 3 miles. The scenery: thousands of people everywhere, sitting down, waiting. cont

An air of tension hung over the camp for many days. The presence of the English and American armies on the Elbe and the Russian encirclement of Berlin made everyone feel that the end must be near. The commencement of a new Russian drive across the lower Oder toward the Baltic ports finally increased the tension to an almost unbearable pitch. Panic reigned in the Vorlager, No german had any more interest in guarding the prisoners, but only in saving his own life. Confidential reports were hurriedly burnt--and copies of "Mein Kamp" went to swell the flames. Cont.

I have the rest of the paper if anyone would be interested in my writing it is very interesting.

Finally, late in the afternoon, the Senior British and American officers were called to a conference with the German camp Kommandant Colonel Warnstedt. They were told that orders had been received to move the whole camp westward. Colonel Zemke stated he was not willing to move at all, and asked in that case what the German attitude would be. The Commandant replied that he would not tolerate bloodshed in the camp; if we did not intend to move, he and his men would evacuate themselves and leave us in sole possession of the camp. When the Germans left it would be up to us to take over the camp peacefully and assume full control. At approximately 1 A.M. on April 30 Major Steinhaner informed Group Captain Weir and Colonetl Zemke that the Germans had evacuated the camp, leaving it in our charge. When the camp woke up in the morning it ws to find itself no longer under armed guard and comparatively free. WHERE ARE THE RUSSIONS? Conti.

Our next problem was to establish contact with the Russian forces. It was decided to send out something in the nature of a recco patrol. An American Major, a British Officer speaking German, and an American Officer speaking Russian, set out with the German in the auto which was equipped with an American flag on one fender and a white flag on the other, to investigate the real situation in Barth and then proceed to the main Stralsund--Rostock road, some 15 kilometers south of the camp, to wait there for any sign of Russian spearheads or of the proximity of the front line. The first patrol returned in the early evening. Still no sign or news of the Russian Army but they were coming!

Spooks, I looked at the reviews of the book, " The Invention that won the War" and I plan on reading it. One of my dear friends worked on that highly classified project at MIT throughout the war and after that at Gilfilan (sp?) Industries, still on radar design. This guy was one of the most intelligent men I have ever encountered. He had total recall. He passed away last year. He was a great friend.

I just returned that book to the library. Brought back many memories as I had worked at M.I.T.'s Lincoln Lab on the SAGE project and at MITRE on the ALRI (Airborne Long Range Input) to the SAGE computer those many years ago. If it were not for SAGE you would not have the internet today. I worked on it when it had vacuum tubes. Now I am really showing my age. Have a great day.

In reference to your posting number 198 that the MITRE book is out of print. I recently borrowed it from our local library. I may or may not be in yours. The title was MITRE The First Twenty Years. I was the second employee to go to work there as it was formed from Division 6 of Lincoln Lab and they went alphabetically.

Ellen, different coast, same moon! Wasn't that a spectacular full one a few days ago? I just got in from a mini-vacation on the Outer Banks of North Carolina, braving reports of Hurricane Florence from the east and rainstorms coming from the west. Nothing! Just spectacular sunrises in the mornings and that Carolina moon at night! We were baying at that same moon together!!! I think I heard you!

Wonderful story, zaney world! ...Miss Iowa! Is your exchange student daughter the same who married a young German man? Is there a story there? Did she meet him while an exchange student? Does she now live in Germany? And where is Heidi?

A BIG WELCOME, ANNREE ! Your name has been entered into our * SENIORNET'S GREATEST * roster in the heading about.

We love our WACS! You are right! There hasn't been experience in the Philippines discussed here! That's exactly why yours is so important! And you are too a writer!!! You rmember the details...and you include them in your description..ie the "slits in the cot". Tell, do you sleep with a pillow now, or did you get used to going without?

You mention in your post that you were in Leyte, Taclaban in 1945. My sister served in the Peace Corps in the same town some 20 years later and wrote of the areas bombed in WWII...still not rebuilt. Isn't it a small world?

You were a WAC...you had the wonderful beach, the guys...you laughed and joked, you danced what a "great generation" of dancers you were! And oh, yes, you DID mention in passing that you "worked" ... Will you share something of your assignment with us?

Did you know that the writer/historian, Stephen Ambrose is presently researching and accepting accounts for a book he is preparing on the war in the South Pacific? You may find that you have some material to share with him once you travel back in memory to that place and time? You can reach him here: Stephen Ambrose's Book...

In any case, we'd love to hear more from you here about your experience in Leyte. Thanks so much for sharing.

Spooks, let your age show! Be proud of it...of the great generation you represent! Will look for the Mitre - First Twenty Years at the library tomorrow! You were there the first years, right? Tell something about those early years? What you actually did? Or still classified?

MaryGK, we need to get to know you! Hopefully you can come back in tomorrow and introduce yourself and tell us about these sources you write about and tell how they came to be in your possession?

We'll be looking for you!

WELCOME !

The S.A.G.E. (SemiAutomaticGround Evironment) computer started as Whirlwind in the Barta Building at M.I.T. in Cambridge. It expanded and was housed at M.I.T.'s Lincoln Laboratory. This computer took radar information from Texas Towers (which looked like oil rigs but were radar sites) and other places such as Turo on Cape Cod and processed the information and displayed it on a scope (looked some thing like a TV set). The scope displayed the tracking of aircraft or any thing else that flew into our air space. At the time I went to work there the computer used vacuum tubes (about 20,000 of them)at a major location in New York the same system used 200,000 tubes and over a megawtt of power. They used 5 diesel generators. The momory of that computer today can fit inside a watch. Eventually it was changed to transistors. The transistor version used a "core memory" a board about a foot square was wired with hundreds of little magnetic cores or dougnuts. These planes were then stacked to form the memory. Even that can not compare to today memories. However, this type of memory allowed a much faster operation and were able to track more air craft. MITRE was formed from Division 6 of Lincoln Laboratory. I was never in the main MITRE buildings of which there are several not far from here. I was always out at a site. I had changed from computer to communications. I wired one of the first core memories that was installed in an aircraft. It was part of the A.L.R.I. program. ALRI= AirborneLongRangeInput to the SAGE computer. The ALRI program is the begining of what is now known as AWACS those planes with the large rotating dish. It was all part of BMEWS and BOMACS and other lines of defense. The radar staions that were across Canada and other places all fed into SAGE. SAGE has long gone down the tube. There is part of it in the computer museum in Boston. The ALRI program in the begining used a computer called the TX-series (transistor Experimental) this used the first core memories and were in stalled in two super constellation aircraft. Lincoln Lab is very close to Hanscom Field. Some one decided to bring one of those aircraft into Hanscom which is small compared to other fields. We had a small building at the end of the runway that we were working in. A big debate took place. Could we bring in this large 4-engine aircraft into this small air port. It was decided that if the plane landed at one end of the field it should be able to stop at the other end. So they told the aircraft to land as close as possible to the beginning of the field. I am glad I didn't live in any of the houses at that end of the field. That pilot followed the instructions to the letter. I thought he was going to take the roof off the house. I wonder what the people thought when this big plane almost on top of their house. Well land it did, and taxi it did, and when it stopped the nose was over the street at the end of the runway. About six more feet and no more runway. When it stopped the building we were working in was under the wing. Lucky for us it was a short building. The new computer (TX series) was installed and occupied almost the entire side of the plane. The radar equipment was on the other side along with communications. I sat in the middle with a thousand watt transmitter sending the data back to SAGE. Of course all this was classified back then. The frequency of the transmitter was changed every hour. At other times i ran the large transmitter at OTIS Air Base while the plane took off on a test run. I eventually got bored and changed into radio astronomy where i built a computer to look for a heavy hydrogen line from a radio star and when that project finished I got into plasma physics, ion engines for outer space and that sort of thing. At Lincoln Lab I had the only camera pass that was ever issued out side the photo lab. I had what is known as a "Q" clearance. That is well above secret. That was so very long ago. Also at Lincoln Lab we had fun with UFO's but that is another story.

Spooks:

What can we say except: "Continue on with your stories."

They are fascinating!!

Robby

Joan, yes, that's the story of my youngest daughter who went to Germany as an exchange student. Heidi, as far as I know, is still in Iowa City, Iowa, a mother and teacher. My daughter was sent back to Germany by the University of Iowa German department in her junior year (she skipped the freshman year as the year of German high school was so much more advanced than the USA schools) to the University of Tubingen to take the place of a graduate student who got homesick and came back to Iowa early. (A real no-no in graduate school). That's where she met the young man that she married. He was still in the German army and going back to college.

They met in the old Tubingen castle round tower classroom that Kepler studied in and the walls were covered with student graffiti from the 12th century on. There was nasty stuff written on walls even then and much earlier. Tubingen was where we got caught in a real old-time Nazi rally that just about floored me.

We decided to walk up to the hilltop overlooking Tubingen to have lunch in a castle restaurant (Germany is full of castles) and proceeded to be seated in a huge hall with a massive crowd drinking beer and eating the very best noodles that I have ever tasted. My kids were speaking German and I was busy slurping in noodles when the Barvarian-dressed waitresses closed the massive oak doors. The crowd all stood up in unison and proceeded to sing the Nazi national anthem and give the Nazi salute, complete with the Heil Hitler part. I just about choked, and my daughter's mouth dropped open. My 6'5'' son-in-law jumped up on a huge oak dining table and shouted in German "won"t you ever learn?" then jumped off the table, threw the oak doors open and strode out. My beautiful daughter yelled in her finest Iowa English -"Ok, Mom, lets get the H-- out of here". I'm still choking on noodles and trying to follow her through the crowd. The Germans never missed a beat in their singing and saluting Hitler. Now folks, this really did happen to us. I am telling the truth as to what occurred that day. The world is crazy, not me.

My daughter still lives in Germany with the same German soldier, now an owner of a pharmacy and takes loving care of my two grandchildren.

And Spooks, I attended a summer workshop at M.I.T. and have seen film on the wartime activity of that great institution. What a story that you tell! So much to remember from those heady days.

Ellen:

I would guess that your children's positive approach to people of all different heritages is a direct result of your own childhood which you told in Democracy in America concerning your close relationship with people who were "different." As the twig is bent, so grows the tree.

Robby

Spooks! Fascinating! You must be a real computer Whizzz! I know where to come when I'm having computer problems...mine are so simplistic lately, dare I mention the latest? We're friends here, right? So don't anyone dare laugh!!! I cannot unscrew one of the little screws holding the cable that connects the monitor to the computer. You know that orange plug? The one with the two rubbery plastic screws that keeps it from falling out of the slot? Well, no matter what I do, I can't loosen the one to unplug it? And need to? I've used my trusty Robo-grip that usually gets the job done, but NOTHING turns the sucker. I'm afraid I'm going to mash the plastic screw? So, MR. HIGH-TECH engineer, can you solve this? HAHAHAHA!

Spooks, will you give us a time frame for the Mitre Labs...relative to the WAR? And when you actually worked there? And yes, the UFO's would be of interest too, ONCE we establish the time frame...and impact of Mitre's work on aviation in WWII!!!

Ellen! That's scarey! WHEN did that happen...the Nazi singing at the Taubingen castle? How long ago? No, it seems we never learn. I thought that kind of thing only happened here in the US, among those young NEO-NAZIS???

Another who has fascinating tales to tell and an explanation of the excerpts she's posted from the Nazi Newspaper earlier this week is MaryGK. I haven't given up trying to contact her and getting her back to share her story with us!

WWII Memorial Design Approved 9/21/00

Well, it finally happened. Groundbreaking scheduled on the Mall in DC for Veteran's Day, Nov. 11. I'm there! Anyone care to join me?

You get a good idea of what the memorial looks like from the photo, but I have pored over every article about the Memorial since DAY 1, looking for the CONTENT, and that doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere. Originally, there was to be a museum as part of the Memorial, but the cost (cost???) was prohibitive. The thing is up to $140 million already. Then there was talk of having the museum of artifacts, photos and papers nearby in the Smithsonian. Has anyone heard more about that?

"The bottom line is this is a revered spot where people can come to reflect and learn about sacrifice of their family, neighbors and friends," said former senator Robert J. Dole (R-Kan.), who led fund-raising for the $140 million memorial."

Bob seems to know something about the Content of the Mall Memorial that we don't!

Veteran's Day? Groundbreaking?

I have not touched a repair job in over 26 years other then my own little projects. I have been away from computers for almost 30 years with the exception of the special ones we had for special effects in the TV studio. I ran a TV recoding studio for close to 23 years. I would do it the same way you do. Don't worry about breaking the plastic covering of the screw. A lot of mine fell off (the plastic covering that is). Get a good grip on it and hold it straight (you don't want to bend it and brake it. Give it a good twist but not enough to brake it. A sudden jolt will usely losen them up.

As for the UFO stoy..it was posted here for a long time and I saw no response so I deleted it. I didn't think this was the proper place for it in the first place. Things related to the war etc so be placed here.

Lincoln Lab and MITRE are after the war was over. At least the part I played. The SAGE computer was the next computer after Whirlwind that was at the Barta Building at M.I.T. The SAGE computer at Lincon Lab used 20,000 vacuum tubes. The main SAGE sytem in New York used 200,000 tubes. That is one heck of a lot of power. A million watts just to light up the tubes.

MITRE was formed from Division 6 of Lincoln Lab. MITRE which stands for M. I. T. Research Engineering. When I worked at Lincoln Lab we changed from tubes to transistors. The transistor equipment that I worked on was known as part of the ALRI program. This was a computer that took the sea clutter out of the radar signal and sent real data to SAGE. This computer was installed on one side of a super constelation aircraft. The President has planes 1 and 2 we had numbers 3. There was a Navy plane called Planner 3 and an Air Force plane called 553. I worked mostly with 553. This new transistorized computer was built at Lincoln Lab as I wired the memory. That same memory today can fit in a watch with memory left over. The memory of that computer was about 3 feet tall and about one foot square. This was the begining of what is now called AWACS. I was never at the main buildings of MITRE I was always at a site. After having built this transistorized computer I got involved with communications. One of the reasons I got assigned to communications is the fact I was, and still am, a ham radio operator. They did not have to train me. No I don't use CB equipment. In fact I am very upset about some of the CB operators. The purpose for which it was designed was a good idea. 5 watts of power so a family could communicate. A wife could call a husband telling him to pick up some bread on the way and communications like that. The CB operators (not all) have gone bonkers boosting the power to over 100 watts and in some cases well over that. Some of them have been kicked off the air by the FCC for breaking every rule in the book. However, the FCC does not have the man power to police the CB'ers. One thing about ham radio you know there are other hams out there monitoring transmission and if you break the rules you soon get a notification. But that is another story. Communications at MITRE ment all kinds of electronic communications. One of my favorite communication jobs was to operate the large transmitter at Otis Air Base. Love to watch the color change in the voltage regulators as we transmitted a signal. I had contact with the above aircraft while it was making a airborne test of the equipment. As part of the communications team I also operated aircraft transmitters. One was on a jet assisted propeller driven Navy plane that was making its last trip before going to the junk yard. When we took off the fluid was pouring out of the landing gear. When we got to the proper altitude we developed a gas leak. The majority of the electronics quit and back we went with most of equipment Kaput! When I got on the ground I kissed the ground even before I took off my parachute. Up there I thought I was going to make my first parachute jump. But no. The good man upstairs has always looked over me. Lincoln Lab and later MITRE developed the basics for AWACS. They also did a lot of work of which I knew nothing about. They were instramental in developing a lot of the equipment used during the cold was. MITRE was deep into navigation equipment and did the work for our present GPS system that some people have in their cars to tell them how to get some where or tell them where they are at. I have been retired for 5 years and it has been almost 30 years since I worked on any of that stuff. When I left MITRE I went to the M.I.T. campus and got involved with radio astronomy working to find heavy hydrogen on a radio star. From there got involved with plasma physics (ion engines for outer space, etc. also MHD power generation (using plasma, gas plasma that is) for power generation. I worked in what was known as the Magneto-Hydro- Gas-Dynamics Laboratory. I built the electronic circuits that triggered the experiments and controlled things. However, that was a long time ago. Since then I had 3 other jobs. I worked at AVCO systems (Now Textron) in the standards lab repairing and calibrating instruments to NBS standards. I also did what was called the operational checkout program where I took a small truck load of calibrated instruments and went around checking the calibration of instrumnets being used in the various labs. There was one outstanding incident (there were others) One day I walked into a lab where there was a good size missile on a shaker table. They were running a shake down test. I happen to check the calibration of one of the scopes (those instruments that display the worms etc) under normal circumstances I can usually bring an instrument into calibration by minor adjustments. This one would not make it. I went over and pulled the big switch and shut EVERYTHING down. I don't think my hand left the switch when all these Phd people were on my back. "You just set us back two weeks. Why did you do that? Why didn't you wait till we finished the test?" I simply said to them "If that bird is going to fly I don't want it to fly back at me. Your instrument is out of calibration and that means your data don't mean a damm thing. Send the scope back to the lab and we will give you a good one" "Ya, but..." "There is no ya buts about it..back it goes when you get the new one you may continue" What a big conference that generated and my boss stood behind me. From then on they new when I was coming and made their schedule accordlingly. The fun of life. Even though I had security clearance they still tried to cover up things so I could not see what they were working on. After a number of times going through the labs checking the equipment even though they were supposed to cover they never did any more. I could have been the biggest spy but I never mentioned about what was going on. There are things going on today that Jon Q. Public will not know for the next 25 years and maybe not even then. However, it was SAGE that taught the lessons so that today you have the internet. It is with SAGE that how to connect various equipments together was learned. The first programing was done one line at a time flipping switches. Punch cards was another great improvement. Nowadays we think nothing of communicating with computers all over the world. Back then we thought of going to the moon but that was impossible then and we thought it would be many, many years in the future. Well that future has come and gone. There are some of us still around that remember the days of flying spot scanning TV, the days of the vacuum tubes, the days of winding coils on oatmeal boxes for our crystal sets trying to find a senitive spot on a gelena crystal with a cat whisker to listen to the local station. How far we have come over the years. I often wonder what the next 50 years will bring. Peace in the world I hope. If not there won't be a world. With that I end this what ever you want to call it. A little of my background.

You know, Spook, the more I keep reading about your background, the more I am intrigued by some of the similarities to my own. Not all, but some! I can remember tuning a galena crystal in wonderment as well as later tuning the ham bands with my old “Hallicrafters” S-29 back in the forties and being fascinated then with the potential of ham radio.

That experience lead to my interest in electronics, in general, which eventually lead me to my participative role in the Apollo Space Program. It was a minor role, compared to many others but it did include my becoming involved in the landing on the moon, subsequent Apollo missions, the COMSAT initial satellite program, the environmental control systems in the Lunar Model, (LEM), and the initial development in bio-electronics that eventually became known as the Bionic Man. That involvement was the culmination of the dreams that it seems that I always had about Jules Vern’s and Isaac Asomov’s writings and the Saturday afternoons at the movies watching the Buck Rogers serials. In some ways, you and I have both been fortunate enough to have lived those dreams to a level of reality never really thought possible before. I am grateful for that experience, as I am sure you are as well.

But all of the above, as interesting as it may be to us, is not what made me write this post! I am really responding to your last line: “How far we have come over the years. I often wonder what the next 50 years will bring. Peace in the world, I hope. If not, there won’t be a world.”

I too wonder at what the future will bring. My inquisitive vision, however, extends, (as you may have intended), not to just 50 years from today, but to the dawn of the next millennium and whatever may or may not come after it. Fifty years is less than a droplet of water in the oceanic realms of time particularly with respect to the development of mankind’s personae and the changes that must inevitably take place before any meaningful and lasting peace can not only be created, but manage to survive as well.

I am enough of an optimist to believe that, beyond the next fifty years, the human mind will begin to change just as it has been changing since it was originally conceived by an incredibly intelligent creator. Those changes will come at the expense of much suffering and hardship, as has happened in humanity’s total history thus far, but they will come. And yes... there WILL be a world in which love, compassion, the brotherhood of man and nations will reach heights of existence, which we cannot, as yet, even imagine.

Isn’t it wonderful, even to be a small infinite part of its’ beginnings?

With some hesitation I intrude into this discussion in hopes that you may be interested in the teenage perspective of someone who was on the other side during the Great Conflict. These are my memories of the day which meant the end of the war and uncertainty to me - April 15, 1945.

My family had escaped the Soviet steamroller in eastern Germany in late 1944 and found refuge in a converted chicken coupof a typical Saxon barn house in a village near Hamburg. Thanks to the Red Cross I was reunited with them in March 1945 after being wounded during the final Russian offensive while serving in a Luftwaffe anti-aircraft battery. I had orders to report back to the front on my 17th birthday the following June.

The village had never been exposed to anything more threatening than the droning of large squadrons of allied bombers and the distant sound of rolling thunder as the port city was being laid to ruin. That morning we were awakened by an odd clanking sound coming from the west that made us huddle, paralyzed with fear, by the only window in the tiny room. Beyond the thin walls we could hear women shriek and the unintelligible voice of our "landlord", apparently trying to calm his family's fears.

Finally a huge tank, followed by smaller ones, reached the entrance of the village and came to an ominous halt just a few houses from us. I had taken my five-year old brother Rolf into my arms and his fingers were digging into my neck in the excitement of witnessing something he didn't understand, yet also frightened by his elders' bewilderment. My other three siblings were crouched on the floor, with Mother holding them as if to be close to them in those last few moments before the machines would roll over us.

The tank finally reached our house keeping to the narrow lane, advancing ever so slowly as if to decide which of the buildings to demolish. We stared at the shiny steel pads rattling over the drive wheels and the gasoline cans strapped to the sides of the vehicles. Still not a shot had been fired and a long column of trucks came into view.

They were loaded with soldiers, not steel-helmet-topped warriors ready for the kill but sun-burnt, wind-tousled young men - many of them barely a few years older than I - with cigarettes hanging from their lips. They eyed their surroundings not with suspicion but interest.

Our world was suddenly filled with the excitement and bustle of an invasion, albeit unexpectedly peaceful. Gradually our erstwhile fears gave way to an awakening curiosity about this "enemy" in unfamiliar khaki uniforms whose presence on our soil had been declared an utter impossibility.

Could this be the beginning of the end of the war?

Somehow we found ourselves in the front yard, protected only by a picket fence but heaving cautious sighs of relief and hope. I tried to signal my friendly feelings towards these anonymous conquerors with a shy wave when suddenly a young soldier who was perched precariously on one of the carriers, swung an arm in our direction. A shiny bundle curved towards us and disintegrated in mid-air.

...to be continued...

Gunther:

Please do not hesitate. You are NOT intruding and you are a wonderful story writer! I was intrigued from beginning to end. "The day which meant the end of the war for you." The entry of "sun-burned wind-tousled young men." There you were 16 years old being "invaded" by "boys" not much older than you. So often we forget that the "other" side had boys just like ours. Apparently only mothers think of things like that.

Please continue. We are anxious to hear from someone you label as our "former enemy."

Robby

We were showered with what turned out to be tiny bars of chocolate and sweets which I tried to confiscate from the children just in case that they were not the well-meant gifts they appeared to be. However, admitting that I might also be mistaken, I waved a quick thank-you in the direction of the passing vehicle.

Slowly the enormity of my discovery sank in: This was the once feared foreign army, bent on our destruction, whom, for some unknown reason, we had been ordered to fight and who came more like liberators than victors.

I caught myself wishing that this peaceful parade would never stop.

It was the first time that I realized that the end of the war did not have to be a violent occurrence and that these strangers had come to toll the bells, not to celebrate victory, but to announce that peace had come to stay.

This unit, however, had only been an advance party of the British Army of the Rhine and after fifteen minutes all was quiet again. A tinge of guilt came over me for having betrayed the country our father had died for. Then I observed the little ones around me:

They had helped themselves to the sweets they had found scattered in the grass and both Mother and I broke into laughter at the sight of their happy faces covered with chocolate. At first reluctantly and then with hungry abandon, both of us threw caution to the winds and shared the children's pleasure. The labels strewn about us were witness to the fact that we had just sunk our teeth into CADBURY'S, the first chocolate my brothers and sisters could remember tasting in many years.

An unfamiliar lightheartedness settled over us and we felt that we had just witnessed a new beginning with the hope that some day soon we'd be allowed to return to the city we loved; that black-outs, air raids and hunger, and the loss of loved ones would remain but a nightmare.

Barely six weeks later I found myself drafted as a junior liaison officer with the Royal Armoured Corps, headquartered in Bergen-Belsen. All those years of staggering through books by F. Cooper and Lord Lawrence of Arabia under the watchful eye of a Cockney English teacher at the academy in Potsdam had paid off. Knowing the right language in those days was invaluable. Suddenly I had NAAFI (commissary) privileges and learned to tell a Churchman #1 from a Player's cigarette.

And finally I had enough fuzz on my cheeks that I acquired my first Gillette razor.

The return to the front was spared me. Thanks to the sacrifices of the brave members of the Greatest Generation I celebrated my seventeenth birthday in a country that was truly free after twelve years of a dictatorship. It had been brought down because of the will of one man on this side of the Great American Pond whose premature death had been announced by the German Propaganda Ministry with gleeful fanfare only three days earlier: FDR.

The End

Cadbury! Mmmmmm! Yours has not been the first post containing the sweet memory of chocolate treats from the conquering soldiers...but the first of the British tossing Cadbury bars!!!

Thank you so much for this memory, , Gunther! You probably have many stories...from your "fuzzy-cheeked" years! Please do not "hesitate to intrude"! We look forward to hearing about the war years from your perspective - from Hamburg! How did you spend your childhood? Where you always aware of the war...foras long as you can remember? Was there a first memory that stands out in your mind?

Again, thank you for taking the time to round out this discussion. Your memories are so valuable and can provide a balanced picture.

Mike - and Spooks, good to hear from both you! Your optimism for peace is heartening! Let's hope that the level of brotherhood and peace you hope for in the next millenium, (then next century!), is reached without more bloodshed, that the lessons we have learned are sufficient. I'm a worrywart, but when I listen to your words, I feel reason for hope. Gunther's too!

ps Spooks, I must thank you for your helpful note on detatching my monitor from computer. With a red face, I must admit, I was forcing the screw into the wrong direction!!!! But, nevertheless, a happy ending!

Greetings: Yes you and I think quite alike. I relize what you are saying and was going to say about the same but for some reason or another limited it to 50 years. I will not be here 50 years from now I figure I've got about 20 at the outside. I am 72+. I should say to you look forward to perhaps next august if not before of a project that is going to upset the world perhaps more so then the internet. A project that I am involved with deal with time and dimensions. Final reports are due this december. Then all the pieces have to be put together. If this gamble pays off..it will do it in a big way. This project has been going on in one form or another for many years. Even Edison, Teslar and others have worked on it. Finally I think science is going to make a major breakthrough in the area of physics. It is either going to be a big bang or a big bust. We are going for the brass ring so to speak. All or nothing at all. It is a project that I have been at for the past 20 years on my spare time. I have just come back from a mini vacation (all expenses paid) by the leader of our small group who filled me in with details. IF it works it will really be something. The wife has called. Will send you some e-mail. Take care.

My wife would never admit to such a thing. My motto...Women may not allways be right..but they are never wrong..live with it. Have a great day.

Sorry I didn't return sooner, but I had no idea that anybody would be that interested. Yes, I do sleep with a pillow today - back then I used a folded up army blanket for a pillow so I still knew how it felt to keep my head up.

My responsibilities were not that great. I was a secretary and one of the first 7 WACs assigned to GHQ. I was with an outfit called Section 22 - we were not allowed to specify its real name but I am sure today it would not matter. It was a radio-radio countermeasures unit. When we moved to Tolosa it became quite a large unit - practically all women - so I know there have to be WACs out there that would find that name familar. Later on I transferred to GHQ Signal where I found quite a difference in my work place. In Section 22 I worked with all women - in Signal I worked with all men. There were only 2 of us that took shorthand so we were kept real busy. I have to add that, despite the fact they played all kind of tricks on me and kidded me unmercifully, I have never worked with a better bunch of guys. They treated me more like a kid sister which made working with them a pleasure. One day that stands out in my memory was a meeting I attended, which as I recall, was Signal's meeting on Operation Japan. I was the only woman present and, needless to say, scared out of wits - I never sat in a room with so many officers before - Navy and Army. However, I survived and managed to translate my notes, which I gather turned out to be useless for there was a big bomb dropped after that - just about ends my narration doesn't it? Sorry I can't make the job sound more exciting but secretarial work is just that - secretarial work.

Have to make a correction - Section 22 was a Radio and Radar Countermeasures Unit. Not radio and radio as written. Sorry

Is there anyone who reading this discussion who came to NZ as a GI during World War 2.

My grandparents had open home for the young soldiers and one they used to talk about was Preston Piper wonder if he is still alive? My grandmother who was Scottish had a soft heart for these very young soldiers she remembered her brother being scared as he went into battle in the Great War so she mothered these young boys and there was always a houseful. My grandparents lived in the far north and then in Auckland. They often wondered what happened to these boys when they left and went into battle.

CAROLYN

From time to time in this forum we have discussed USOs and other methods of bringing happiness to scared boys. GIs and other soldiers talk about girls incessantly but when the moment of truth arrives, it is "mother" they want. Carolyn, it is impossible to measure the warm happinesss that your grandmother undoubtedly gave to those Servicemen.

Robby

I was in New Zealand for three weeks during May 1945, met a lovely girl and her family who made my shore leave one of the most pleasant of my three years away from home in Boston, Mass. My ship was tied up at the Princess dock during that time. I have always had a nice warm feeling in my heart for the people of New Zealand and the city of Auckland. So I send my "Thank's" to all who had a part in making this young, homesick kid, feel so welcome.

To the female who felt her secretorial work wasn't important. All work in war is important.

I was in college during WW2 We had 500 soldiers who were part of a college training detachment of the Air Force. They received 5 months of intense academic training.If they survived this, they went on to pilot, bombadier training schools.They were so young and vulnerable--it broke your heart.Tom Brokaw's book brought back these memories.Eula in Hot Springs,Arkansas.

Excerpt from the New York Times:--

"A new "Rosie the Riveter" memorial has been erected in Richmond, California, on the site of Kaiser shipyard No. 2. The memorial, built by the city, is the first national monument dedicated to women who worked on the World War II home front. Although Rose the Riveter was a fictitious chracter, the image of a musclebound woman in overalls became an enduring wartime icon, embodying the nation's can-do spirit, and was popularized in posters, war-bond promotions and the 1942 song, "Rosie the Riveter."

"At the war's height, women, many of them African-American, made up more than a quarter of the shipyards' 90,000 workers. From 1942-1945, nearly 500,000 African- Americans migrated to California, about 15,000 to Richmond alone. It was the largest voluntary black westward migration in the nation's history.

"The memorial was designed by Cheryl Barton, a landscape architect, and Susan Schwartzenberg, an artist, and is intended to recall the unfinished frame of a Liberty ship, the type of troop and cargo vessels built here. Women's words are embedded in a granite walkway, which stretches 441 feet toward the water -- the length of a Liberty ship.

"The American Rosie the Riveter Association, headquartered in Birmingham, Ala., is a national network with more than 600 members."

ANYONE HERE WITH ROSIE THE RIVETER MEMORIES?

Rosie the Riverter did a great job. I worked as a crew member on some of those Liberty and Victory ships.

1861 - After troops under General Ulysses S. Grant stormed the tiny town of Bloomfield, Missouri four soldiers from the 18th and 29th Illinois Volunteers take over the empty offices of the Bloomfield Daily Herald and turned out the crude first edition of The Stars and Stripes. The new paper was created by and for the men in the ranks rather than a publication of the Army. The domestic paper continues to be independent, although the European and Asian editions are official and subsidized.

This is my first visit to this site. I have read with extreme interest many of the posts here. The experiences of the military personnel from all branches of the services have been excellent reading and certainly of historical content. I have both of Tom Brokaw's books, "The Greatest Generation, and "The Greatest Generation Speaks" although I have not finshed the latter one as yet.

I was in the Marine Corps and on Guadalcanal in the Pacific at the age of 18, as were many others my age. I made two trips to the Pacific, spending a total of approx 2 years, the second trip to Bougainville, Green Island, New Caledonia, New Hebrides, Midway, etc.

When I heard of Brokaw's first book I questioned the title, "The Greatest Generation." From whence did he derive the name? What this did was cause me to begin reflecting back on those days when I entered the Marine Corps as a young kid not yet dry behind the ears, but who became dry in a hurry. I really believe that my personal experiences were mild compared to those who hit the beaches at Normandy. I consider myself fortunate not to have been there.

As I realized the rapid death rate of WW II veterans today, and reflected back on all Theatres of action, including the Pacific, I suddenly concluded that Tom Brokaw had given his book the correct name. I thank him for writing both books. And my profound thanks to all the other vets from WW II, Korea, Viet Nam, The Gulf War, etc. who did what they had to do. Lets hope none are forgotten.

Bob

Bob:--Good to see you here! You were at all the Pacific places that were in the news those days. Everything is relative, isn't it? I didn't hit the Normandy beach but I did join the 29th Infantry Division shortly after that date. Much later on when we heard what was happening in the Pacific, we congratulated outselves that we hadn't gone through quite the terrors that you fellows saw.

Robby

Robert: I think we "All" went through our share of Terror at one time or another, European theatre or Pacific theatre. Just a different type of enemy. Bullets are bullets, mortars are mortars, and artillary shells do their work as effectively as battleship broadsides. I had my baptism of fire before I reached the age of 19. I finally came home a much wiser and humble person, and not with the cocky, self centered attitude I had when I volunteered for the Marine Corps shortly after my 18th birthday. The four years I spent in the "Corps" made a believer out of me without a doubt. I have a healthy respect for those men who served in Korea, Viet Nam, The Gulf War, etc. I believe the Pacific Museum is supposed to open up in New Orleans sometime early next year. When it does I make plans on being there!! Thanks again.

There is no question that Tom Brokaw has provided a great service with his books on "The Greatest Generation". He defined an era of courage and valor that many of us needed to be reminded of. As you point out, however, courage and valor were not, and never will be, confined to only certain periods of time in which the men and women of this nation gave so much of themselves to defend our country against its' enemies....as they will be called upon to do again.

Having said that, I must also point out a point of contention that many of us, including those that actively served in this countrys armed services, as well as those who so gloriously supported them in their efforts at home and who never heard a shot fired in combat, are sensitive about.

That point of contention is the title! We were, and are still, for those of us who yet remain, a Great Generation, and that is how I am certain that history will percieve us. However, we were not the greatest generation.

The greatest generaton is yet to come. And it will be the generation that will come after us and through their own efforts will have achieved the glorious permanence of a brotherhood of man, a brotherhood of nations, and a world without hunger,armed conflicts between nations, avoidable sickness, disease, and pestilence in which the beauty of love and peace will shine ever so brightly in the eyes of all of the children in the world.

Bob, they will be the Greatest Generation! None of us will probably ever live to see it in our time but I know in my heart that it will come. The best that we can hope for is that those who achieve that "greatness" will remember that we, in our time played a significant role in its beginnings.

Mike Cantor

Mike: Very well spoken! However I,m sure that Brokaw is referring to the living generations that we have experienced. Who know what is to come? I feel as you do, that there will in all probability, be a greater generation in the future. Who knows, and as you say none of us will be around to prove or disprove it !! If so, I hope that they "DO" remember, that we in our time played a significant role in its beginnings. Have a Safe Holiday season!!

Bob

Each generations has something great about it. As a member of the WW2 generation I am proud of what we all did. Two years ago I visitied The Wall in DC. My daughter was with me and found the name of a very dear school friend--who was never found--pow or otherwise. A few weeks ago I saw a TV program--Dateline I think that told the story of a Vietnam veteran who grieved over the first man he had ever killed in Vietnam. The program promted me to buy a book called THE WALL. It was so touching and I remember what those boys--and women--who served went thru. To think so many of them were spit on ---when they also were a great generation. I have a daughter who is a Major in the Army Reserve, one who was in the navy during Vietnam, a grandson who was in the navy during Desert Storm, another grandson who served 5 years on the Nimitz and was in the Gulf for both hostilities and another grandson leaving for training in the Air National Card next month. You can tell am one PROUD LADY!!!! My husband was in the Army Air Force and I was in the WAVES God Bless every generation that has served their country!!!!!

Thank you, Yankee, for your comments. We have often in this forum discussed the importance (or lack of importance) of the term "greatest" and the consensus seemed to be that there are many Great Generations. Of course you are ONE PROUD LADY and rightly so as the various generations in your family served America and the world well!

Robby

EXCERPT FROM TODAY'S NEW YORK TIMES.

MOBILE, Ala. (AP) -- A rusting relic from World War II sailed into port with a jubilant crew of elderly veterans Wednesday after a monthlong trans-Atlantic voyage that the Coast Guard had warned was too dangerous to attempt.

``Bravery is ageless,'' Bill Shannon, a veteran from Fort Worth, Texas, said as the naval vessel LST-325 arrived to a celebration.

The 29-member crew, average age 72, was made up mostly of veterans from World War II and the Korean War. The 328-foot vessel, which delivered troops to Normandy during the D-Day invasion, will become a museum.

``This is the greatest thing I've ever done in my life, but I wouldn't do it again for all the world,'' said crewman Jim Edwards of Canton, Texas. ``I like to have froze.''

The veterans left Greece on Nov. 17 and crossed the Mediterranean in 11 days despite two storms and equipment problems. One man suffered heart problems and left for home, dying after he arrived in the United States. The crew was at sea continuously after leaving Gibraltar on Dec. 12.

The Coast Guard had warned the crew against trying to cross the Atlantic during the stormy winter months, citing the ship's lack of safety equipment, its questionable steering, and uncertainty about the crew's ability to respond to emergencies.

The crew rejected the advice. Capt. Robert Jornlin of Earlville, Ill., described the voyage as fairly smooth, though there were steering problems and rough, cold weather off the Florida Keys this week. A failed engine also took 10 hours to repair. And in the Bahamas last week, divers had to fix a hole the size of a silver dollar in the bow.

``We're certainly delighted that they safely completed the voyage despite our warnings,'' Coast Guard Lt. Cmdr. Brendan McPherson said. ``It's a great moment in history.''

The ship was built in 1942. It was decommissioned in 1946, lent to the Greek government in 1964 and taken out of service last summer. Congress passed a bill authorizing Greece to turn it over for use as a memorial.

Crew members paid their own way to Greece and donated $2,000 to help cover expenses. The rehabilitation of the boat was extensive, with engine troubles, leaks and other problems.

``We thought our main problem was to get this ship back from the Greeks, but lately we have been fighting with another group as to who will control this vessel: the deck house can be rightly called Cockroach Hotel,'' according to a captain's log entry from August.

The toilets were astoundingly bad. ``Forget about gleaming white porcelain. The appearance of ours would shock a skid row resident. They defy cleaning,'' the log said. One commode leaked on deck.

But for four months, 74-year-old Joe Sadlier got to be a kid again.

``It was just like going back in time. We were 18 again out on that ship,'' said Sadlier, a bus driver from Ketchikan, Alaska. Sadlier was the cook for the voyage, which he called an adventure of a lifetime: ``I can't think of any time I've been as happy as I am right now.''

It's funny in some ways.

Why is it one of my constant memories of Normandy and sitting on the "throne" and having three French females walk up to me and thru pantomine ask if I want to buy eggs or tomatoes?

It was August 1944 and we had just established a primitive air stip for P47s. On first day of arrival slitch trenches were quickly dug for bodily funtions. Then somewhere lumber was found to build "3 holers" without any walls so we could at least sit down. What on earth did combat troops do?!

So, here I and two others in early a.m. are sitting there with our pants down and an old frenchwoman (probably in her 30s) with two attractive daughters walks right up to us and offers thier eggs/tomatoes for sale.

We quickly crossed ours legs and politely declined.

But often wonder, is our culture causing problems?

I was on military furlough, billeted in an ancient hotel in Casa Blanca, French Morocco, shortly after the American victory at Fedala in 1942.

The communal toilet on each level of this hotel consisted of a hole in the floor of a closet under the staircase. This served as the outlet of human endeaver for all the people on that particular floor level.

After much searching, I was directed to the toilet accomodations under the stairs.

As I pushed the door of the commode open, I saw a ceiling with fallen plaster and flaking walls lit by a 15-watt bulb.

No sooner had I ascertained the wattage of the bulb when a piercing scream raised my hair on end and sent the cold chills up and down my back.

As the sound came from the lower regions of the closet I was amazed to see before my astonished eyes a squatting female form.

My mother taught me to be the perfect gentleman in every situation, so as she would have me, I did not run away, but stood my ground and delivered a lengthy apology in both English and halting French, but to no avail.

My gentlemanly speech was met by a string of curses in both English and French as well as an occassional Arabic phrase in a dialect which I was unable to translate into English .

The lady then attempted to shut the door with such force that she slammed it on my hand, very unladylike.

The inconsiderate behavior on her part, after my profuse, gentlemanly apology, indicated what a culture difference existed between us ,and caused me to make a resolve never to return to Casa Blanca again.

ExPow Don Jurgs, frequent writer to this discussion group, passed away on Saturday night, March 10,2001. Please express your condolences to his wife Jean. Pat

Oh Patrick, I just noticed that ExPow, Don has passed away. My heart goes out to his wife, of course. What a wonderful man he was. I feel we had come to know him through his moving posts in this discussion. Do you have an email address to contact his wife?

May he rest in peace.

When I got home from work today, I found a package in the mailbox. It was from my most lovely 15-year old grand daughter Laura, whose mother (my daughter) was an exchange student as a teenager in Germany and it included a detailed map of Normandy along with a beautiful letter from her written in English.

My daughter never really came back to the USA and after graduating from the University of Tubingen and then the University of Wurzburg,and marrying a young German, so my grand children have joint citizenship. Laura has been after her parents to let her become an exchange student too, and at last she got her wish. She stayed with a French family living in Pont-Audemer in Normandy and visited many towns in the area, including Honfleur, Deaville, Rouen, LaHavre, Caen, Bayeux, and yes, Omaha Beach.

This place took so much of her American grandfather's life as he landed on Omaha Beach in the third wave on D-Day, somehow survived a horror beyond words and after his outfit was annihilated, was then placed in Patton's Third Army to fight on to meet the Russians at the Czechoslovakian border. What thoughts he would have had if he had lived to see his beautiful grandchild wander over Omaha, a child whose other grandfather fought as a German GI (and was badly wounded) on the Rhine River at the age of nineteen.

I don't believe too much hype concerning pure patriotism. The story of war is so much more complicated than one side attacking another side, good against evil. I just think, a day after Memorial Day, what a lose.

Ellen, it is good to hear from you. I can imagine that Memorial Day brings back so many memories for you. What a treasure that granddaughter of yours...who understands more about the meaning of war - from both sides...than many of us ever will. Your family story is one we will never forget!

I am a veteran of WWII and spent 4 1/2 years of my life in the service of my country. Half of this time was spent in the South Pacific as an officer with the 350th Engineer General Service Regiment. Our mission was to build warehouses, hospitals, loading docks, roads and office buildings as well as operating a sawmill in the jungles of the Solomon Islands. While we never encountered the enemy in hand to hand combat, we were a necessary part of the war effort on our way to Tokyo. Without us, the road would have been a lot more difficult.

Beeziboy... Nice to see you posting again... I remember your posts in the Good War...

Beeziboy! Is that you? Didn't you plant those watermelon seeds while stationed there? Rumor has it that you've written a book about it...if not, someone else has? If it is you, will you come over to Authors! Authors! and tell us about your book? I remember the story from The "Good" War discussion.

Beeziboy, I hope you have by now received my invitation to join us in Authors, Authors and advertise your book. I received the first email back but resent it to your newest address.

Reading the above comments, I noticed that there was a general "shortfall of money" on a fixed income, and the general feeling of "Is This What Retirement Is All About".

I am 71 years old, retired on a fixed income, dependent on liguid oxygen. However, I do like to help people whenever I can. Maybe I can help you.

I can be reached at "www.retireesdream.com", or :ingallsppl@aol.com".

I was an Army Brat, born in 1928 in Manila, Philippine Islands. In 1941, my family was stationed at Schofield Barracks, Territory of Hawaii. My life was a good one until the Japanese bombed and strafed us on December 7th. Then everything changed! We spent five months there after the attack, carrying gas masks everywhere we went, cooped up in blacked-out houses at night, and waiting to be sent back to the States. They sent the families consisting of pregnant women and small children first, but we finally left there on Easter Sunday, 1942. We were transported on a British luxury liner, the Aquitania, which had been turned into a troop ship, and because it was so fast, we outsailed our convoy and made the trip alone. Scarry, scarry times to say the least. From then on, my mother, sister and I had to find a place to stay (no family in the States), and wait for my dad and brother-in-law to return to us. And when they did return, we moved from place to place as my dad was transferred. It was a different life from what I had been used to. I lost my childhood friend in the European theater, and it seems as thought I was holding my breath from 1941 to 1945! War is not to be glorified, but our fighting men should be! I married an ex-GI who luckily did not have to be in the fighting, and he worked for aircraft companies after leaving the Service. We are not wealthy retirees, but I donate when I can to Veterans organizations. I think all Veterans are special--they did what they had to do! Children today should be told about war, and perhaps it will make a difference in the years to come.

And now the Generation see's American airliners hijacked and rammed into buildings occupied by thousands of people. The twin towers of the world trade center in newyork city and the pentagon. There is more loss of life more loss of property more loss economically than in the attack of pearl harbor in 1941. I am in shock after watching these things happen on television. As I watched I was aware that I was feeling dejevue of a sort. Of course. and I bet most of us who are 70 and over did feel the same confusion for an few minutes. WAR. again in our lifetime America is under a sneak attack. Only this time we have no named enemy to declare War on. So where do we put these feelings. We can't run out and join the army, or start immediatly doing war work as we did in 1941. I am sore put to even express what I am feeling today 60 years after the last time America was attack on this leval. Faith t

Did anyone see the Discovery Channel's "Hell in the Pacific" on tonight, December 7th? I thought that it was excellent! it gave such a good background of the scramble of the western powers to carve up the Pacific Rim countries that forced Japan, who had no natural resources, to expand or be taken over. I especially appreciated the feeling that it was journalism, not government hype produced by some advertising agency.

I get so sick of modern television "reporting". Never any coverage about the true picture of conditions or the root causes of terrorism springing from the middle-east. What about the last fifty years of Palestine refugee camps peopled by those who were driven off their land and forced out of their homes? And who were those forces that were financed with billions of American dollars?

The Discovery Channel's "Hell in the Pacific" brought back many memories and raised old issues, but it seemed to be fashioned after true concepts of journalism. Anyway, so I thought.

My husband, Mike Odelson was one of eight brothers in World War 12. Their names are in the Library of Congress as the most sons to serve in the army at one time. Mike passed away September 4, 2001, three days after out 61st anniversary. The names of those that served are(there were ten brothers, two were oveage at that time) Oscar, Joe, Bennie, Irving, Mike, Julius, Sydney and the youngest Roy who died last month. Minnie Odelson

Yesterday I made a mistake when I typed that my husband and his brothers served in World War 12 instead of World War 11. I'm sure my mistake was understood. Minnie Odelson

MINNIE: Welcome to Books & Literature. Have you checked out our many active discussions? CLICK HERE I hope you find one or more that you enjoy.

I find the best and least confusing way to refer to the wars is by using the expressions...WW1 or WW2.

We still have WW eleven to look forward to.

Minnie, how fascinating, the most sons to serve in the Army at one time! 8 brothers, that's quite a record to be proud of, how anxious their parents must have been. Thank you for telling us that.

Please accept my sympathy in the death of your husband, we appreciate your posting here and hope you will, as our Marjorie has pointed out, join us in our other Book discussions. I'm also sure that many people in the World War II Memories folder including many posting there who served at that time would want to hear of your husband and his brothers efforts.

Thank you for visiting us, please draw up a chair and "set a spell," and you, too, Keith!

ginny

By way of balance the Greatest Generation also included those who fell into the "Gang Plank Fever" catetgory. I also recall that at War's end in Europe, USFET had an AWOL and Desertion list of over 12,000 which only adds to the meaure of those who served honorably and faithfully.

Thank you, Scriptor, for that annotation, what is USFET? Do you mean soldiiers defected in the European Theater?

I agree with you that it adds to the heorism of those who faithfullly served, we owe them a lot.

Thank you for your remarks.

ginny

USFET (U.S. Forces European Theater) was the successor to ETO (European Theater of Operation) when the war In Europe ended. Later the U.S. State Deparment took over the Army's military government functions in Germany and a Mr.J.McCoy(?)became the High Commissioner (HICOG). His very large staff was in Berlin. USFET was renamed Hdq. European Command which was located in the I.G. Farben building in Frankfurt and Hg 3rd Army later U.S. Constabulary and later Hq.7th Army was in Heidelberg. When the Russians blockaded Berlin the bulk of HICOG staff moved to the IG Farben Building; Hq. EC to Heidelberg and the reactivated 7th Army to Stuggart. (Don't know who moved last.)

Good heavens, Scriptor, thank you for that detailed information, I knew none of it, including any AWOL, but I was 2 years old when the war ended.

Thank you for this information, it is most valuable and interesting.

ginny

I've read Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" and most of Stephen Ambrose's books and would like to add that we who survived World War II should be called "The Luckiest Generation".

Growing up during the Depression,most of us had very little to hope for but a menial job. When World War II started, we didn't even think of our futures. We would go off to war as soon as we were old enough.

I enlisted in the Navy in March, 1943, and got my high school diploma for finishing boot camp. My training in the Navy prepared me for service as an air gunner and I got out to the Pacific for the final battles.

But it's what happened afterwards which made us the "luckiest generation". While in the service, I learned that I could write interesting letters and articles for the ships' newspapers. So I decided to become a writer. When I came home, I finished my high school regents requirements, then went to college for four years, all paid for by the GI Bill -- including books, lab fees and subsistance allowance. If we wanted to take the summer off, we could sign on for the "52-20 club". I was even able to get points added to my test scores for the State Scholarship exams which paid for another two years at graduate school. (I never wrote "the Great American Novel" as I promised God for letting me live, but I've had an enjoyable career as a Journalist.

We vets were also rewarded with mortgages which required no down payment and 4% interest, real estate tax reductions and given bonuses (Federal and State). Now, as we age, we can access the VA health facilities and prescription programs. I hope I never have to go to a Nursing Home, but the VA will take care of that too (at least I hope so since I don't have long term care insurance while my wife does.)

I guess I'm rambling, but I just want to get across the point that those of us who survived World War II in one piece should be called "The Luckiest Generation" Morton Kail, USNR Mar, 1943- Dec 1945.