Hope Dies Last ~ Studs Terkel ~ Part I ~ 2/04 ~ No Export

"Do not go gentle into that good night. Old age should burn and rave at close of day. Rage, rage against the dying of the night." (Dylan Thomas)

In Hope Dies Last, the renowned oral historian turns his attention to the aspirations of "The American Century." For Terkel, hope is born of activism, commitment, and the steely determinism to resist. The spirit of activism has ebbed and flowed through Terkel's venerable life.

The spark of activism is once again igniting the precious idea of a better world. The indefatigable spirit that Studs has always embodied is an inheritance for those who, by taking a stand, are making concrete the dreams of today. He reflects back to us our deepest feelings. In his world the dream persists -- the hope endures.

This book glows with human warmth and an unquenchable passion for justice. If you have this same passion for justice, your opportunity to express it exists in this discussion group.

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Discussion Leader: Robby

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My father had five brothers. When I was in my teens, just out of high school, I used to visit my grandparents and on occasional Sundays all seven of us men, which of course included myself, would find ourselves sitting around the dining room table and giving opinions.
Oh, did we have opinions! I was always precocious but my precociosity (I'm entitled to make up a word) was always accepted by my family. We gave opinions about the stock market, the coolies in China, the wisdom of New York's mayor (LaGuardia at that time), the condition of the school system, the possibility of war (it came to Europe two years later), the media (nine newspapers in NYC at that time but no TV), hunger in the world, how the pyramids were built (obviously we were all amateur engineers), the benefits of Italian food (did you think Iadeluca was an Irish name?), the future of the best baseball team in the nation (Brooklyn Dodgers of course), how to get along with women (I listened at that point), how to get a good job, why the Twentieth Century Limited train is able to get to Chicago so fast, animal rights, and on and on.
Our voices rose. We interrupted each other. We pounded the table. We looked at our "opponent" with disdain. Sarcasm might have entered the discourse -- debate? -- argument? What matter the title of the event. We had views and we gave them with no holds barred. We did tend to move along in some sort of organized fashion from one topic to another -- an organized chaos, if you will.
But you know what? No profanity ever. It was not part of our vocabulary. No commenting by one brother upon the character of the other. We even occasionally agreed. And we laughed. Oh, how we laughed. Sometimes laughing at the antics of someone else who was going to great lengths to prove a point. Sometimes laughing at ourselves. For an hour or two we took on the world.
Then out came the coffee and the pastries. Time for a breathing spell. Time to look inwardly and feel good about ourselves. We had opinions. We felt them strongly. And we had expressed them. Maybe we had changed someone else's mind and maybe we hadn't.
I repeat:- we took on the world. But make no mistake. It was not an exercise in public speaking. We were angry! We were angry at all the idiocy in this imperfect world. We didn't know if we could at that moment do anything about it but, by God, we were going to make our voices heard, even if only in the confines of one room. We were one step away from being activists.
A couple of us did take that step. One uncle used to stand on a corner in Times Square preaching the Marxist manifesto and selling the Daily Worker. Another uncle, an elevator operator, would trap an unsuspecting passenger between floors and get him to change his way of thinking. Many years later I, a World War II veteran, marched from Fordham University to the New York University uptown campus, being splattered with eggs on the way, as I helped protest the Vietnam War.
This is the spirit of this new discussion group. If ever you were extremely upset about something and wanted to speak up about it, this is the time and the place. Political views accepted? Of course. But if the only thing that bothers you in this life is the presidency, the congress, or the supreme court, or government in general, then you are thinking too narrowly and you are in the wrong forum. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL DISCUSSION GROUP. We will talk here about "people" and their relationships with other people. No topic here is too large and none is too miniscule.
This is the spirit in which Studs Terkel wrote his book, "Hope Dies Last." His book is about Activism. He quotes Thomas Paine's vision of America written in 1791:-"Freedom has been hunted round the globe. Reason was considered as rebellion. The slavery of fear had made men afraid to think." And Studs adds:-"Here is where the activists enter the picture, as they always have. Paine assumed a society not simply of citizens, but of thinking citizens."
Through the medium of his book Studs will be our guide as we move along. We will follow his 325-page book as he moves us from his quote of Jessie de la Cruz at the start:-"I feel there's gonna be a change, but we're the ones gonna do it, not the government" to the quote at the end of the book by Kathy Kelly:-"We're going to change our lifestyles."
Thinking is the byword. Let us give our opinions. Shouting is permitted. Table pounding is encouraged. And perhaps not interrupting the other person too much. Tell it like it is or how you think it should be!!
Robby

Well, here I am. A discussion Leader for a new forum built around organized chaos. I know that no one can herd cats. And all you cats are out there meowing to come in and say your piece.
I keep thinking of the hot discussions around our dining room table. Chaos? Yes. But even without a written agenda, there was also a form of organization. It was built around COURTESY AND CONSIDERATION. If one uncle brought up a topic (let's say "hunger), and a couple of other uncles responded, a third uncle didn't interject with "What about that last Dodger game?" He waited until it seemed that the current topic was almost exhausted and then came in with that new thought.
You folks get the idea. Please keep in mind that you are in the Books & Literature section of SN and that we are reviewing Studs' book. Along with that we are giving our own personal concerns which were brought to mind by reading this book. That is the purpose of this forum. We will start at the book's beginning (Introduction) and will then go chapter by chapter. I have read the book throughly and you will be amazed how following the various chapters will give you every opportunity to get your personal concerns off your chest. Every chapter is built around "passion for justice." This is why you are here -- right?
So before getting into specific concerns, let us take a general approach as Studs does in his Introduction. What is he telling us?

Robby

According to Studs in the Introduction, "Hope appears to be an American attribute that has vanished for many, no matter what their class or condition in life. Passivity appears to be the order of the day."
Before we get into your specific concerns, let me ask:-Do you folks agree with that? Is hope dying? Is passivity the order of the day?"
BE SURE TO SUBSCRIBE!!

Robby

Robby,

Without Hope, what is there?

It is hopelessness that has sparked revolutions. When the citizen has no hope left he revolts. He might not improve his lot but he will change it.

Remember what was left in Pandora's Box.

Tiger Tom

Lurking here, Robby and I seem to have arisen from my bed before anyone else. Its a hex!

I am listening to a discussion about a new book entitled "Perfectly Legal" by David Johnson. Its about our taxation system and I already upset today and I haven't even had breakfast. The system needs to be changed before we are all destitute except for those people at the top who don't even pay taxes. Its all a big joke! As my friend, Cecily, used to say" the only difference today are the labels pinned on people. We are still in that mindset of the "king" and the "peasants". Her words, not mine! But, she might have been right? When are we going to do something about a flat tax. Its been bandied about for the last 40 years and nothing has happened. And, the flat tax percentage has done nothing but rise.

Hope doesn't die for me . . . ever. I believe in the American people. I believe in goodness. I believe in me, and I've never given up hope, despite pain and illness throughout my life, deaths of people close to me, money problems -- enough to weaken many people and make them lose hope. Evolution is slow for human beings, but it will come eventually, chip by chip, flake by flake, as we chisel away at ignorance and narrow mindedness and come closer to truth.

My father never made it to high school. He earned his living with his hands and his wits all his life. In his seventies with a leg amputated because of diabetes, he was still climbing into his truck to go and do odd jobs for people. He was a Democrat and a union man, who had suffered during the Depression because he couldn't find work, and he had more than his share of wild oats to sow. One of nine children, his brother, Philip, was the only one of his brothers and sisters I knew of who shared his feeling for the underdog and the under-privileged.

In 1935 when I had polio I was given to an aunt and uncle because my parents were too poor to pay for my illness. My uncle had graduated from high school, and had an electrician's license. My aunt was my father's sister, the bookkeeper and manager of a jewelry store downtown. Uncle Bob was a staunch conservative, a Republican who preached conservative aims, goals and values at the supper table. He had lost his business during the Depression and worked in Boston servicing oil burners until Western Electric opened up a facility a few miles from my hometown, and he found a better job. My aunt and he did everything they could to convince me we were better than "poor relatives" in the family. That included my mother and my father.

My father said to me many times, "I don't know why Bob McKay is so conservative; he's a little guy just like me and the rest of us.

During the time I was growing up in my aunt and uncle's house what I heard at home was heavily conservative. My aunt and uncle hated Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and let the world know they did.

When my father came to see me, he gave me another picture of people struggling to find work and fighting with "management" for a square deal, and he told me what Roosevelt was trying to do. I was exposed to both sides of the coin in my childhood.

The conservatives won out. I married a dyed in the wool conservative, and listened to him give very logical and scientific reasons why conservatism was best. Even though I voted Republican along with him, we argued about politics because I discovered I couldn't agree with his point of view. Having been pointed out and discriminated against because of my handicap, and knowing my mother had died in 1940 in an unheated, cold-water tenement in poverty, I sided with the poor and under-privileged more often than not. Can a marriage be damaged by politics and clashes between political values? I think it can.

I found myself fighting for causes, especially discrimination against Blacks. While my conservative husband was working at a very good white collar job, I was out campaigning for liberal Democrats and trying to help the poor.

When the Joe McCarthy investigations were going on, we were living in Maryland 9 miles from Washington, DC. I watched the hearings on television and was horrified by the Communist witch hunt that was going on.

Not long after that I switched parties and worked for Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern, women's rights, Civil Rights, you name it.

My husband strenuously objected when I put a bumper sticker with Gene McCarthy's name on it on the bumper of his car. That was a big mistake if you happened to be the wife of an ambitious young conservative with his foot on the rungs of the corporation executive ladder.

Since then I've lived in relative luxury in a ten room house with my family, and I've been poor while living alone in one room. I still see both sides, but know it doesn't feel good to go hungry.

I've only read a couple of chapters in this book, but Studs already feels like my pal.

Mal

Not in my view. In my life it shows in the folks moving into worn out, tired houses in the poorer part of town, renovating them and painting them in day glow colors that yell, "Look at my life!" It shows itself in the sometime acrimonious, but continuing discussions about, "Pick up your dog's poop! This park belongs to all of us!" And, one more example, in the urgent discussions about tearing down some of the useless dams on the Snake River (dams built by the Corp of Engineers as busy work during "active" administrations) so the salmon can make it upstream to spawn.

I'm on a tear now, but I'll stop and give someone else a chance to vent.

Ann and Tiger Tom:-Do you two believe that "passivity is the order of the day?" People either do not care or do care but take no action?

Robby

Tooki:-Go ahead -- be on a tear!! That is what this forum is all about.

Robby

I'll tell you what's bothering me right now. I'm all for science and space exploration, but an exploration of Mars when we haven't finished fighting a war and we haven't begun to pay for it while we're trying to rehabilitate Afghanistan, plus promises of men on the moon and Mars make me angry. What about job training for the poor on this planet? Isn't poverty an issue? What about the environment? Aren't we going to do anything about that? What about education? There have been heavy cutbacks where I live, I don't know how it is where you are. What about people out of work? Where's all the money to pay for these high-flown space dreams coming from? Your pocket? Mine? I don't know about you, but the seams in my pocket are wearing out. Well, there isn't much to put in it anyway.

Mal

"Activism" is taking charge of your life as much as you can as your situation warrants. As I'm growing older I feel the beginnings of constraints upon my mobility, and I'LL HAVE NONE OF IT. One of my current, as I refer to it, jobs, is telling as many people in my neighborhood as I can that, "I'm an old lady, and my job is to stick my nose in everyone's business and then tell the rest of the neighborhood what I know." (I walk a lot.) Gossips have been given a bad name. How else are we to feel the pulse of our lives? Some of my younger neightbors have come to enjoy me as a source of information about who's selling their house and why; what the neighborhood "bad kids" are up to, (No, their mother is not out of jail yet.) and is the old lady on the corner OK or does she need some help.

Every little bit of activity adds up to "activism."

Studs adds in his Introduction that there is "a stirring discontent in the fields, a growing disbelief in the official word." He describes it as "something that does not make the six o'clock news."

Robby

I am an armchair activist. I mail my politicians regularly about my concerns and take every opportunity to voice my concerns to anyone I meet. I use the internet to voice my concerns about local and international issues. I spent a huge amount of time with my grandparents as a child. My grandfather came from a very politically active family and he himself was heavily involved in the NZ Labour party. One of my earliest memories is sitting on the knee of our Local Labour candidate on election night while my grandmother sliced a celebration cake when Norman King got elected in a heavily Conservative area. I think he was the only Labour candidate who has ever held that Political seat at least since I was old enough to vote. My grandparents would go door knocking to to canvas for party membership and funds and also to drum up votes at election time. I went with them. I was politically aware at a very early age. We talked politics at the dinner table every night and discussed the news of the day. My grandfather would carefully explain the stance he took on every issue. He would illustrate his point with a lot of political history. He taught me a lot.

Yes I do think we are a passive lot today and lack the fire and the passion I saw in my grandparents generation.

Carolyn

In his Introduction Studs says:-"There was always pressure from below from beleaguered and embattled farmers coming out of the woods -- from big-city neighborhood alliances defying evicting baliffs -- from a threatened march on Washington by black trade unionists, leading to the passage of the Fair Employment Practices Act -- even from some forgotten man who swung from a chandelier during a Waldorf-Astoria dinner of baffled industrialists, shouting 'Social Security!"
"These trouble makers were, by definition activists -
1 - In action, moving.
2 - Causing or initiating change.
3 - Engaging, contributing, participating.
Thus it was that out of the Depression, and during it, hope was springing forth."
Do any of you consider yourself or would like to become a "troublemaker?"

Robby

I don't like the word "troublemaker", but there are plenty of things I'd like to change. Hopefully, politicians pay attention to emails sent to them and petitions that are signed. I can't get out and participate actively any more, but there are other means available to me, especially through the use of this computer.

Mal

Some of my children already consider me to be a trouble maker and very eccentric. I am passionate about the rights of our indigenous people which is not a popular stance with pakeha (white NZ)at the moment. If I was in better shape physically I would be out in the streets demonstrating about many issues. We live today in a world where the Conservative movement is sweeping the globe - my fear is that the old nineteenth century attitude of laissez faire is becoming a popular ideology. I feel our society is going backwards. This trend really scares me.

I notice regular comments about politics and politicians. Are they your only concern when one considers what is going on in the world? It if it, that is a cop-out!! Are all the ills of the world on the shoulders of the politicians? What happened to volunteerism? What happened to neighborhood action? What happened to membership in non-profit organizations?
Those of you who are throwing bricks at politicians -- what are you doing to help eliminate food wastage? What action are you taking toward protecting animals? What do you do when you see someone disparage a person of another race? If you don't believe in capital punishment, what are you actually DOING to help stop it? Do you write letters, not only to the politicians, but to the newspapers? Regularly? Do you refuse to shop at Wal-mart because of the way they treat their employees? Do you carry signs in front of the houses of unfair employers? Do you plant trees?
Are you walking the walk -- or just talking the talk?

Robby

Politicians will continue to disappoint us until the majority of us wake up and start taking responsibility for out lives, the good and the bad. I've worked in law enforcement for 30 years currently with Juveniles. Children now days raise themselves because their parents are out working two jobs to buy them more things instead of spending time raising them. It scares me when I see 12 year olds pregnant because having a baby is a status symbol in their group or young boys wanting to get sent to the dept. of corrections because it also is a status symbol. If the parents and the whole of society doesn't slow down and realize the directions we are headed and start actually raising their children to have respect for themselves and others, we are never going to have individuals that care who is in office and what our living conditions are going to be like in the future. The school system also needs to be overhauled totally. In the area I live, we have booming growth along with new schools being built. If the schools don't look like palaces and have swimming pools and airconditioned 2 story atriums for a cafeteria, the parents are shocked and yet they expect us older generation to keep paying for them thru our taxes. I could keep going on but will wait and let someone else jump in.

Robby every concern I have which is about the environment, Genetical engineering, social attitude (ethics and morality) famine and so on has a lot to do with politics. Political ideology affects every one of my concerns. They are intertwined.

Aren't there politicians of one kind or other all over the world? Am I mistaken in thinking they don't play quite a big part in our destinies wherever we live?

The New York Times has been featuring the prostitution slave trade in Cambodia recently. Want to buy a young woman for $10 or $20 and keep her off the streets? Is it true that Canada has made prostitution legal? If prostitution is legal, does that make a prostitute any more respectable in your eyes?

What happens in countries like the Netherlands where many drugs are legal? Would it help the situation here? Having joined in the Wally Lamb book discussion my idea that many crimes are drug-related was very much confirmed by former inmates in their writing and appearances by some in the discussion.

I am very interested in prison reform, and happy to note that a Prison Education Initiative forum has opened up here in Books and Lit.

It seems to me that politics and politicians have something to do with all of these things. Am I mistaken?

Mal

Mal politics of one kind and another affect every facet of our lives all over the Globe. Yes you are right.

I keep reading here about "if this doesn't happen and if that doesn't happen." What are YOU doing to start or stop something?!

Robby

PS. Global warming and climate change is one of my pet topics and politics has a lot to do with adding to natural disasters. Deforestation has a lot to do with mud slides and other problems. These are all political problems. Activists have died trying to protect local indigenous populations the ecosystem etc from the deforestation that is going on in many parts of the world. I don't think just about what is happening right in my back door I am very concerned also about the bigger picture. As for my back door I sign every petition and voice my protests about negative happenings in my area. This year if my health keeps up I hope to volunteer at our local school to help with reading etc.

Carolyn

While the term "trouble maker" may be bothersome, as Studs writes of the beleaguered and embattled farmers, big-city neighborhood alliances, people in marches, etc., those trouble makers were by definition, activists. I agree. Activists work for change and change often means trouble to an entrenched philosophy. I also feel that there is general passivism in the U.S. today and that it is in one way reflected in the lack of turn out of voters.

I also believe there remains a core of activists who are working to bring about changes beneficial to society. I hope they increase. As Studs writes, "It's more like a legion of Davids... not one slingsot will do it."

to me is the same as being apathetic. I think that each one of us has a responsibility to speak up and speak out. I do! I've circulated petitions, requested information as a constituent, and taken a stand on many issues. I want my voice to be heard. I wasn't as fortunate as Robbie was in being "privy" to adult conversations and I believe a great deaIof information was kept that should have been shared. Now, as an adult I believe children should sit in on these little family discussions. It encourages thought and teaches a child how best to debate and reason.

If one remains inert and tacit in feelings and beliefs then there is no conflict. Conflict begets solutions, as ST illustrates.

I grew up in a very conservative household. One of my earliest memories is being the only child in a gathering of my parents friends (I have a picture of them as about 10 feet high and me as two inches high), listening to them disparage "those colored people" and feeling miserable because I knew they were wrong, but was afraid to speak out. (Later I did, as you will see).

During the Mcarthy hearings, I tried to explain to my mother why I thought Mcarthy was wrong. She burst into tears and said "I can't bear to see you insult the flag like that". I never talked politics with my parents again. Although I have been a political activist most of my life, that mostly involves hanging with people who agree with you and yelling at people who don't. It is still very difficult for me to argue politics with people I like and respect. I really envy Robby those childhood experiences.

On the other hand, I did learn that someone you really admire in other ways can feel quite differently about politics.

In college in the fifties, my friends and I complained endlessly about racial discrimination and foreign ploicy. But it never occurred to us to do anything about it. In the early sixties, my husband (who is even more of an activist than I) and I were active in Brooklyn CORE, a group that was in the forefront in the north in fighting racial discrimination. But we left the country in 1963, and when we came back in 67, I was busy having babies. I always feel that I missed the sixties, a period that is very congenial to me. In the seventies, I became active in the feminist movement. Later, I became very involved in local issues. Working in HUD, I worked hard on programs that tried to get decent housing for poor people, and started a group of women employees concerned with job discrimination.

Lately, my actvities have been more limited. I belong to several online groups that lobby. Until my last illness, I tought English to immigrants. I discuss politics with my friends, but since they all agree with me, that doesn't accomplish much.

This discussion reminded me to click on the Hunger Site. I had been forgetting to do that.

http://www.thehungersite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/CTDSites

It is so easy to start living just for yourself, and forget something as simple as spending one second to feed a hungry person..

Do I think hope is dead? No. Perhaps because my friends are all so concerned about the way this country is going, and the internet is starting to get me in contact with people who are doing something.

Robby,

Unfortunately most are pacifist for one reason or another. The 20-80 rule exists here: 20 percent of the paople are activists and 80 percent are pacifists.

It is when things really get desperate that the 80 percent will rise up and then things get messy.

The Average family is too busy surviving to get involved in much. Then, many feel that to get involved would endanger themselves and their family.

It takes Courage to be an activist and while most are not cowardly they also are not too courageous.

I am a liberal to the core and my Brother is an Arch-Conservative. We avoid Political discussions because he does not discuss he tries to shout down anyone with a different opinion along with name calling and the rest of it.

I live in a fairly Conservative area so I am one of the endangered species around here.

Tiger Tom

I am spell bound by these first two chapters I have read....many of the life situations described describe my childhood.....As for passivity.....I am much more an activist now in my retirement than when I was working.....the church I attend has as it's focus, social justice and is the only church in this University town which has come out against the Iraq war..... we work monthly at Loves and Fishes feeding the homeless anyone who comes in for a meal without questions, we are caring for a Liberian refugee family to whom I have become very attached.....we volunteer at Habitat for Humanity.... I am so amazed and thrilled at all the older volunteers and people with a passion for others that are in this small city...... Oh no.....we are not a passive lot here........

Tiger Tom....I am somewhat conservative but I don't shout people down and call names with people with whom I disagree...My little world has many more liberals in it than conservatives and I truly treasure each one of them.....they allow me in their midst.....lol.....I have a friend with whom I volunteer in a local garden and he told me to be sure and not tell anyone that I voted for George Bush......then we had a good laugh.......

I am housebound most of the time, so this is what I do:

I email the people who represent me in Congress and locally.

I sign online petitions for causes I think are just.

I am an online member of groups working for the environment and the rights of women and the poor.

I have done telephone canvassing for candidates whose agenda include working for the environment, rights for women and children, animal rights, conservation of forested areas, etc.

All of the electronic magazines I publish are linked to the HUNGER SITE. 1. 1 cups of food are donated to poverty and famine-stricken areas all over the world with every click people make on that site.

I make sure my children and grandchildren (when they visit) are aware of current events, national and world issues and the environment.

When I am able to I donate money (even as little as a dollar) to the Southern Poverty Law Center. This group works for justice and equality and fights all kinds of discrimination, helping the poor and people who cannot afford legal fees to be treated fairly in courts all over the county. It also has a fine tolerance education program, which teaches school children and adults how to get along with people of all races and people with different beliefs.

I recycle cans, newpapers and glass.

I keep the heat set at 62 in the winter and wear sweaters to keep warm to save energy.

I set the thermostat at a high setting in the summer so the air conditioner works less to save energy.

I use only cold water in the washing machine, and set the machine to 1/2 load capacity when there is not much laundry to do.

I wash dishes only once a day (by hand) to save water.

I turn lights off in places in this room when I leave that area.

Can't remember what else I do, but there are plenty of ways one can be active without leaving the house.

Mal

I do much the same as you Mal. I also refuse to use poisonous sprays in the garden. I am eating spray free tomatos, courgettes and lettuce at the moment and all our home grown herbs are not sprayed either. I take all my discarded clothing books etc to the Salvation Army for the thrift store and I have rarely sold any unwanted appliance I find a home for it. Thats one way I can help in the community. Next inorganic rubbish collection I will put out a lot of stuff still in working order. Poor people come around and take things they need. This is recycling of the nicest order.

You are all giving thoughts vividly and in detail. May I remind everyone that this is not a forum where I am the "chairman" and everyone speaks "through the chair" -- in other words, addresses me. We are sitting around a round table.
Please speak to each other and address each other by name. Agree with each other. Disagree with each other. I am also a participant and intend to give my views as we move along.

Robby

The terms "conservative" and "liberal" have taken on a political definition but I don't see it that way at all. I have come to the conclusion that most conservatives are narrow-minded, see it their way and that is that. Liberals are more open-minded and are open to examine the other side. What are called conservatives are, in my mind, those who say:'"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts." You now see where I stand.
And so, like Tiger Tom says, the only way they can "win" is to shout so loud neither they nor anyone else can hear the other point of view. That's childish. "My father can lick your father!" Maybe you're an exception, Tigerliley, but if you are, then I say you are liberal in your thinking.
I live in an area where a significant number of people are still bigoted against Blacks. I disagree with this and say so right out loud. This has cost me patients but I don't care. If they only want to see a doctor who thinks exactly like them, that's their problem. People like that, I have found, have lots of anger within them. They probably lie awake in bed grumbling about people like me. I go to sleep peacefully.

Robby

Advertising agencies conduct accurate surveys and know exactly who their market is. The following ads (as expressed in today's NY Times) give an idea of the intellectual level of the people watching the Super Bowl game. These are the people whose vote will put a man in the White House. I wonder if we should urge people NOT to vote.

What follows is an assessment of some of the best and worst of other commercials with humorous approaches. The commercials described below are among 24 provided to reporters before the game.

AOL Members of the Teutul family, the cast of the popular reality series "American Chopper," spoofed themselves in three commercials promoting a new feature of the America Online service, sold by Time Warner, called Top Speed, which improves the efficiency of regular dial-up service. In the best of the batch, one son, Mikey, attached Top Speed to a car, which sent him back in time; he returned in a cheesy costume, proclaiming he had been "to the Renaissance." Hollywood should keep him in mind if Ashton Kutcher is unavailable for "The Butterfly Effect, Part 2." Agency: Wieden & Kennedy.

Charmin Someone in a threadbare bear costume, representing the new bruin brand character for Charmin, marketed by Procter & Gamble, made mischief at a football game by replacing the quarterback's towel with bathroom tissue. Hilarity ensued. Or was supposed to, anyway. Agency: Publicis Worldwide, part of the Publicis Groupe.

FedEx In a delightful parody of bad science-fiction films , an alien found a fiendish way to masquerade as a human office worker: No matter what the alien is asked, it dutifully replies, "Why don't we use FedEx?" Agency: BBDO New York.

MasterCard One way to ensure that a commercial is truly funny is to import sitcom characters, particularly animated ones. That is what MasterCard International did in a new spot in its "Priceless" campaign that featured Homer Simpson and cronies from "The Simpsons." But what made the commercial, well, priceless, was an extraordinarily clever script. The highlight was Homer's dudgeon when, parked as usual on his duff at Moe's Tavern, drinking Duff beer, he was admonished twice by an unseen announcer to "spend more time with your family." Homer's reply: "Yeah, yeah, I heard you the first time. Stupid voiceover." Agency: McCann-Erickson Worldwide Advertising, part of the Interpublic Group of Companies.

Pepsi-Cola Four commercials for the Pepsi-Cola soft drink sold by PepsiCo ranged from mildly amusing to hilarious. The standout was a cheeky spot, introducing a promotion co-sponsored by the iTunes division of Apple Computer, that smartly teased the recording industry for suing teenagers for illegal file sharing.

Sixteen of the miscreants appeared in the commercial, identified with tongue-in-cheek labels like "Incriminated," "Accused" and "Busted," as the soundtrack played "I Fought the Law (and the Law Won)." The jest was topped at the end as these words appeared on screen: "Drink down Pepsi and download music at iTunes. Legally."

Another Pepsi-Cola commercial offered a wry trip back in time - sans Top Speed or the Teutuls - to a fanciful moment in 1953 Seattle when Jimi Hendrix, age 11, made a momentous decision: the guitar or the accordion? The wacky snippet of "Purple Haze" played Lawrence Welk-style was worth repeating; perhaps it can be offered by iTunes.

The two other Pepsi spots were centered on sight gags. One commercial, cute but familiar, showed bears dressing up as humans so they could buy a case of Pepsi-Cola; too bad there was no cross-promotion with Charmin. The second commercial, sweet but predictable, presented a mismatch at a diner between a hefty waitress and a skinny customer. Agencies: BBDO New York for the first three and Spike DDB, a joint venture of the director Spike Lee and the DDB Worldwide division of Omnicom, for the diner spot.

Sierra Mist Two commercials for the lemon-lime soft drink sold by PepsiCo helped put the "gag" in sight gag. In one, special effects were used to depict a man and his dog quenching their thirsts by jumping from a fire escape atop an apartment building into two pitchers of water. The sight of their heads protruding from the pitchers was scarier than the alien in the FedEx commercial.

In the second subpar Sierra Mist spot, a Scotsman in a kilt stood over a grate to experience a cooling moment like Marilyn Monroe's in "The Seven-Year Itch." That amusing premise was ruined with a lame punchline invoking the joke about what is worn under a kilt. Agency: BBDO New York."

Robby

Robby - Your electorate has an abyssmal record of voting anyhow. I believe less than 50% of the electorate use their vote. Our worst record would be about 75% its usually quite a bit higher than that. I believe its the apathy of those who really could make a difference that enables some of these politicians to get elected. In Australia its compulsory to vote. Here its not compulsory but its compulsory to register for voting. Everyone is supposed to be on the electoral roll. I wonder how many of the lower socio economic group in the USA vote? If they exercised their vote they could make a difference for themselves or do they feel its hopeless and no matter who is in their life never gets any better? As a furriner I don't see the dramatic difference that we have between our right and left wing in your two parties. It seems to be a dirty word in the USA if you have liberal views. People say Liberal as if Liberals grow horns and have forked tails. Am I correct in this impression?

Spent last evening reading the book ...and am glad to be here. Robby your family sounds like mine and gosh do I miss it. I had five brothers ..three older and two younger..and conversation was a way of life for us. The older brothers never ever talked down to the rest of us. AND I was never treated differently because I was a girl. All of my brothers learned to do house hold chores..including doing dishes and ironing ...when I look back I realize my mother was a feminist..and my father was the leader of our group.

We were never allowed to use slanguage, or swear words. And never allowed to speak disparaging of other races and nationalities. Our neighborhood was a melting pot. Just in the block where we lived we had Polish, German, Irish,Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, the druggist was a homosexual although I never knew that at the time. We had black school teachers who lived in a house in our block and black families who lived in the small houses in the alley behind our home.

Jennifer was the daughter of the family right behind us and we played together ...my brother who was 7 years older than me (the oldest was 14 years older) was best friends with her brother and when WWII broke out they decided to join the Coast Guard thinking that meant they wouldnt go overseas..It was a shock to both of them ..well perhaps not to the young black lad to find they couldnt be in the same group.

My dearest friend from first grade was a Jewish girl named Helen Soffer and it was at her home I learned to eat lamb and brocolli etc. We remained friends until her death at 25 during surgery.

My parents never talked against any political party..My father always said VOTE FOR THE MAN NOT THE PARTY...we used to laugh since he voted the straight Democratic ticket...my mother sometimes would vote just the opposite. And when a preceint committee man offered my dad money to assure my brothers would vote their way ..he said NO it was thier right to vote for whomever they wanted ..his vote could not be bought.

We did attend separate schools but I never realized we were being segregated...the schools were located in another section of the city...so that seemed normal to me. If the bus was segregated I dont recall that because when a group of us who belonged to a Business and Professional group at the local YWCA went to a conference in Peoria Il I was shocked to find the black ladies had to sit in a separate section of the train. To this day I regret I didnt sit with them. In Peoria we stayed in homes of their local YWCA because we couldnt dine together in the local restaurants.

I have never considered myself an activist ..because I was raised to be a caring person. When my cousins from the South came in the summer to visit ..I can recall being angry at them when a local black man was walking on the sidewalk in front of our house...he was a harmless man and on payday always stopped at Julie's tavern..(Polish, we had an Irish pub on the other corner) and had a few too many..he would walk to his home and mumble to himself. NO ONE ever said anything but my cousins would say how do you know he isnt talking about us? I can recall looking at my cousin like he was crazy...

What do I do as a caring person...support through donations and help our churches Prison ministry, Habitat for Humanity, the local refuge for abused women and thier children which is funded by donations not by the city...I gave them a good working washing machine when my family bought me a new one...easier for me to use..an extra fake Christmas tree, lights and ornaments and other Christmas items when I downsized my stuff. I am not going to mention other things I do but my dog is from the GOLDEN RESCUE.. a place for abandoned or mistreated Golden Retreivers, and have donated money and newspapers ( used for the cages) to the local SPCA, been a volunteer in schools for children who needed not only extra help but extra attention, was active in our churches program called Study Buddies for a middle school. We were sucessful in helping to raise their scores in all subjects. The church I attend is a "blind" church by that I mean we have a totally mixed congregation ..biracial, black families, Japanese and Korean families, poor families and wealthy families. It is the most caring congregation I have ever seen. We participate in a food program and pick up donations of food from organizations who donate it and see it it is distributed to the homeless shelters. We have a home here for foreign sailors and over the years my family and I have donated cookies and cakes as well as to an organization for troubled youth...etc...but I dont think that makes me an activist..it makes me a caring person. And in spite of the fact one of my neighbors reported me to the health department I have always had a compost pile in my back yard..The gentleman who came out to investigate said it was fine, properly maintained etc and there was no law against having one.

My children have been raised to be independent in their activities..often supporting candidates or causes I disagree with ..but that is what I want them to do ...we can love each other without being clones. now I have to get back to my reading...anna

Carolyn says:-"our electorate has an abyssmal record of voting."I have voted every single election since I was 21 years old. Who has not done that here, and why not?
Anna says:-"I have never considered myself an activist because I was raised to be a caring person."To me that makes no sense. The more caring a person is, the more he/she does something to show that caring.
Is everyone here agreeing with everyone else? Is each one of us "sweetness and light?"

Robby

Yes, I couldn't understand ANNA's statement about not considering herself a caring person, either. I'm the kind of caring person who will stick my neck out to fight injustice. It's gotten me into a bit of trouble sometimes, but who cares? If people don't like me because of what I believe, that's their problem, not mine.

CAROLYN, it is hard to understand why people in this country don't get out and vote. I have talked to hard-working, low-income people about this. Their answer was to ask me what good it would do; it wouldn't help them. I explained that if enough people get out and make their voices heard by voting there would be changes.

It's hard to convince people who have their minds made up and refuse to change their attitude. One way of doing this, I find, is to offer to pick them up and take them to register to vote; then take them to the polling place and show them what to do when they get there, if they've never voted before. This generally works. Actually, I have known and know quite a few people who do this.

Mal

In the book's Prolougue a brother who was chief of neurosurgery at County Hospital was asked "Why do you stay there when you could go somewhere else and make a lot more money in private practice." He answered "Someone's got to teach these young doctors compassion."
Has every doctor you've been in contact with showed compassion? If not, what did you do about it?

Robby

Here is an article from this morning's NY Times about THE HOMELESS. Which side are you on?

Robby

We had a homeless man freeze to death behind a super Wal-Mart just in the last few weeks....this place is about a mile and half from my home....He was in his fourty's....I am still saddened to think of this man freezing to death as I lay in my warm house with many empty rooms....My community has several shelters for the homeless.....many will not go there because of the rules against alcohol and drug usage..many resist any kind of "rules"... This is just one segment of the homeless that I am very familiar with as I serve them in the food kitchen.... I know there are others who are homeless for other reasons, such as illness or economic reasons.....I believe I am my brother's keeper.... We must take care of those who for whatever reason are unable to care for themselves... Teaching and helping people to care for themselves is the way to go HOWEVER there will all ways be those who for whatever reason are unable to do so......

Tigerliley, you serve the homeless in a food kitchen. That's wonderful! I live in a rural area and have never seen any homeless on the streets of our small town. But even as I write that, that sounds ridiculous. Of course -- there are homeless everywhere. And they are often invisible.
As I think of it, I do help in a small way. I am a mental health Red Cross volunteer and at various times families have been made homeless due to their home having been destroyed by fire. The Red Cross takes care of their material needs but the RC chapter chairman then calls me and members of the family who are now going through shock come to my office for help for as often as is needed. At no cost, of course.

Robby

The Times article says there are no homeless in Orinda where the shelter was to be opened; that these are county residents which were to be imported. Orinda is small with a population of just under 18,000 residents.

I can see why some people would resist bringing in the homeless. The crime rate is very low in Orinda. People might have worried about an increase in crime. They also might be concerned about the cost of supporting homeless people.

The median income in Orinda was $117,637 in 2000. The median house value was $631,800 in 2000. This is a relatively wealthy place. Maybe the people are of the "I worked hard for what I have, and I won't have that in my backyard" mentality.

The shelter should be on county property, I believe, and I definitely think there should be one.

How would you feel if poor people who hadn't had a bath or shaved in weeks apppeared at your door? Would you take such a person in? Would you pay higher taxes to provide shelter for people like this? Just how much are we our brothers' keeper?

Mal

Carolyn. I always admired New Zealand’s politics and since you are saying more about how your country is run, I like it even better. I wonder if I should complain about what really bothers me. Canadian Politics? No, I never saw much difference between our two main political parties, Conservatives or Liberals. To be a Liberal in Canada does not have the same connotation as it has in the US.

Mal, my main peeve is “garbage” but as far as energy conservation is concerned, I keep my house at 70 or a little over, because at 62, I would freeze. In Montreal when the temperature goes down as far as –20 to –40 for weeks on end and we have snow on the ground for close to 6 months, and we can’t spend time outdoors except for brisk walks or runs, I intend to be cozy in my house. That is the only compensation over freezing weather we have this far north. I don’t want to dress like an Eskimo in my house.

My main peeve is the amount of garbage we have. What we throw away can be compared to Mount Everest. There is no more space for garbage dumps. Everything is wrapped in paper or plastics and the food industry packages everything, especially frozen food. Farmers markets are the only places where everything is sold in bulk. First the food industry cooks the food, energy consumption, packages it in plastic or paper, energy is used, reheat it, more energy, the plastic container and paper goes in the garbage soiled and unusable, it is dumped somewhere in nature. Garbage.

If I cook from scratch I feel that the food tastes better, has more vitamins and minerals left than if I reheat and microwave food, it consumes less energy and creates less garbage.

Anna, Do you think that Seniors can be effective activists? I feel that the we can make a big difference by boycotting firms that discriminate against the elderly through their ads. I wrote to a company once to complain about the way they used an elderly woman in a disparaging way to sell their products.

Eloïse

I think it's great the way each of you is addressing the other participants by name. As I said in an earlier posting, I am not a chair person but just one participant sitting around a round table. So far I haven't heard any table pounding. Does that mean that we "older" people are just plain tired and nothing gets us that worked up any more?
If so, that really worries me. Anyone here remember the Gray Panthers?

Robby

Good questions, Mal. They DO show up sometimes at my front door, and frequently at my car in the market parking lot. Unfortunately they show up with a "con." The usual one is, "I just ran out of gas and I need (some amount of money) to get home." Here it gets creative: to take care of my pregnant wife, help my old mother, etc.

The front door folks that get something from me are the ones offering to wash windows for hardly any money. They do a lousy job, but they're trying.

Once inside the store some young, able bodied man's con was, "I'm short just a few dimes to get this candy bar. Can you help?" I watched him try it on about five other folks, all of whom looked shamefaced and gave him a handful of change.

I get pan-handled all the time when I wander around downtown. There's one guy who's a fixture on a corner, fiddling for money.

I can't give money I don't have to these folks. I believe that they rely on the shame of affluent appearing folks to pan-handle. Can you tell a crack addict when you see or talk to one? Should you give a crack addict money?

Tooki:-I get concerned when I see your term "pan-handled." When I think of the homeless I think of the high percentage of people who are struggling in these times when the news tells us that the economy is UP. I think of the single mother and her child who are living in a car. I think of the set of parents with four children whose house just burned down. I think of the couple who couldn't pay their mortgage because the company was downsized (a beautiful euphemism for "who cares about you, Buster!")

Robby

Robby and Mal the reason I said that was because when I was growing up I never heard that word. You cared enough to worry about all of the things that were important...and that meant other people. In other discussions I have mentioned my large family ..11 aunts and uncles on one side 13 on the other...and dozens of cousins. On my mothers side the father died at 42 leaving 11 children. They were living in a rural community ..There was no help for a widow so my grandmother accepted the proposal of a local bachelor farmer. The older children left as soon as they could ..the aunts to work in the cities as household help, the uncles to become sharecroppers...doing the work on someone elses farm for a place to stay and a small income. The younger ones like my mother fared better ( she was 3 when her father died) one brother became a barber, owned his own shop and did well. Another was a wildcatter in Oklahoma and eventually owned a couple of welding shops etc. The youngest when he was old enough stayed with his brother in Oklahoma , finished his schooling and became a city bus driver, later he also learned to be a barber and married a beautician ..they opened a shop and became modestly wealthy. The aunts eventually married well, but the uncles who were sharecroppers needed help. All of the brothers and sisters gave that help because there was no help via the government. I never heard them complain about that ..family helped. It was a given. As my cousins finished high school ( they helped work the cotton fields growing up, chopping cotton ,etc) they came to my parents home to take courses in St Louis at trade schools. Some of my cousins resented any thing that the family did for them...they truly felt since the family , whom they considered wealthy compared to their life should just support them. So I was taught to give a hand up but not a handout..

I care about people ...because I saw what caring could do. It has not only grieved me that some of our children are given an inferior education...but I have worked to see that improved and argued with principals and teachers and superintendents to see that children would be given an education. My youngest son needed special help, he had a learning disability ..the state had passed a law saying that every child would be given help in this area but it wasnt given. When I protested the gentleman in charge told me they would have to send my son out of state to recieve aid. He also told me it had only been two years since that law was passed and I asked So what have you been doing for two years? But I had read up on the law...and the law stated that if they didnt give aid I could take it to the state and the local school would have 30 days to make amends. By the time I was doing all of this I had a number of parents who had children who needed this special help and were hoping I could make this happen. I spent 3 hours talking to the local person in charge. Nothing he said could intimidate me and I told him so. I told him I felt sorry for the parents who wanted help for their children but were not as articulate and easily intimidated. As I was leaving his office he asked me one last question "What will you do if we cant offer your son a class this fall?" I looked at him and said "Make no mistake about this I will take this to the state and higher if necessary." Two days before school was to start I received a letter advising me our son would be in the first class for children with learning disability. I became a volunteer for that class and advised other parents what they needed to do to get the same help. I guess that makes me an activist..My Irish grandmother would say I was just being feisty...anna

Robby disagrees with my use of "pan-handlers." (Robby: perhaps you prefer "spare-changers".) I wasn't using it to discribe the "real" homeless. That's the problem: how can you tell the difference between the needy, the indigent, and the social rebels? I think some of those who are less than needy use up the available resources.

Or do you folks think anyone who looks like they are in need, says they are in need, or who applies for help should, indeed, be helped? I would also like someone here to address my questions: Can you spot a crack addict, and should you give money to one?

Now that is Activism, Anna.
Bravo!

Do I think seniors can be activists..? no doubt in my mind. My help is limited because of my hearing loss. Still I can write and do so to my representive in Congress..Congressman Bobby Scott and two my senators. Warner and gads my mind is going ..I can "see" the other one but cant think of his name this moment.

I write letters to the editors..when 9/11 occured I wrote in defense of Arab- Americans...reminding everyone when the bombing happened in Oklahoma city ( and I saw that area before it was cleaned up ..you would have to have seen it to understand the devastion) everyone assumed it was an Arab , instead it was an American. In my letter to the editor I asked people to be fair. In fact that was the last line of my letter. LET US BE FAIR AMERICANS. I didnt want some local Arabs frightened or called names etc..or something worse..so I asked us to be fair.

So we can at any age be an activist..anna

I'll tell you what makes me table-pounding mad and has ever since I was a child going to the Harvard Infantile Paralysis Commission in Boston for examinations. I can't stand being treated like a number by medical doctors and people who work for them and not a human being with a brain that works and has feelings.

At the risk of offending someone, I have found that orthopedists can be among the worst offenders as far as this is concerned.

I also have hated being treated like something inferior the cat dragged in by people who make braces. ( Orthotists ). You take your brace off and get up on that table, and some of them act as if you don't have a brain in your head, while they stand ten feet tall on two good legs.

Something like this happened to me in another instance at a gerontology clinic not too long ago. A physician's assistant chided me as if I were a child because I said I didn't take Vitamin D, but drank milk instead. I got so angry that my blood pressure went up.

What have I done when this happened? As a child I had no choice. As an adult, I have complained loud and clear, and I have not gone back to the doctor in whose office or clinic this happened.

I become angry at the flippant way in which doctors today prescribe tests that aren't necessary, and carelessly hand out too many prescriptions. When I went to an orthopedist last Spring for a prescription for a new leg brace, I knew why my leg was swelling. I had Cellulitis in my leg; recognized it because I'd had it before. I told the doctor what was wrong. He ignored me and ordered several different tests. On arriving home, I called the dermatologist who had treated my previous case of Cellulitis, made an appointment and went to her. She ordered an Una-Boot to be applied to my leg and gave me a prescription for an antibiotic. Within two weeks I had recovered. I won't go back to the orthopedist ever again, and the best chance is that I'll never go back to Duke University Medical Center, said to be one of the best in the world.

Mal

I have found that working up close and personal with the homeless makes me considerably less fearful of them....yes...some of them are sociopaths, some are alcoholics and drug addicts.....as well as nicotine addicts which is less frowned upon....I just think "there but for the grace of God go I"..... I know a homeless man named Jimbo who lives not to far from me down in the woods in a little shanty like affair which he has cobbled togather.... He has a dog and a sign which he carries to a particular spot every day....no doubt the money he recieves goes for many things....his propane gas heater, dog food, and cigarettes....I guess it is up to the giver to decide if the money give should be given just for food or not...... Down town people are asked not to give the panhandlers money for food but to offer to buy them a sandwich etc.....sometimes that is well recieved , sometimes not....... I see homeless "resting" in our wonderful library down town and they are not hassled.......unless of course their behavior would be inappropriate.......

So many comments since yesterday! Robbie, yes; the Gray Panthers continue to be active. There were several references to them in the "Medical Costs", etc. folder in Political Discussions during the time Medicare and prescription drug legislation was discussed. Mal & tooki, as far as folks showing up at the door, it hasn't been too long since the days of "Hallelujah, I'm A Bum" and hobo villages. As I recall, there was some sort of sign or symbol that could be posted to indicate whether or not a household would offer handouts. As for crackheads -- well, there were some down and outers asking for dimes or nickels to purchase cheap wine. Anne, your comment about segregaton brought to mind my own experiences. We lived in a town with segregated schools -- really did not think much about it at the time -- I mean that was the way things were. Blacks sat at the back of the bus, there were separate drinking fountains in the bus station, train depot, and in public buldings. While becoming aware of the disparities, I spent the summer school vacation of '47 in Wenatchee, Washington, with my brother. Imagine my surprise when a black came into the drugstore, sat at the fountain and had a drink. However, they would not serve Orientals! In '58 there were separate drinking fountains for Officers and Enlisted at the MATS terminal in Kwajelien (sp?).

When I was little we lived near the railroad tracks...they were only a few blocks over and HOBOES we often at our front door looking for something to eat. They often offered to do something for that food. My mother always fed them something. Once I can recall a young man came to the door and mother told him all she could offer him was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and coffee. He said that was all right and I sat and watched him neatly , politely and hungrily eat those sandwichses. Mother even asked if he wanted more..And if my memory serves me correctly he did ask for one to go. None of these hoboes were ill mannered or demanding. They were polite, said please and thank you. They were tired looking, thin for the most part and now that I think of it were weary ...hopping on trains ..walking everywhere and hoping to find a kind soul who would give you something for that empty spot in your belly and perhaps a kind word for your spirit. None of my family and none of us children ever felt threatened by them. They were humans down on their luck not people who expected help but people who hoped for help. It is much easier to help someone with that attitude than those who think they are entitled.

Do I think there are people who are entitled...yes , I do but I think it best to leave that to organizations ..for lots of reasons. Drug addicts should be able to get help to overcome the habit but not to support it. People who have lost a home due to down sizing etc should be helped ..hopefully to find something or help to learn a new trade. And an understanding that no honest job is beneath their dignity ..

There are some in our society who wont work for small pay..One of my SIL had a nephew who refused to take a temp job for $9.00 an hr.. but it was all right as far as he was concerned for his parents to pay for the gas for the car they bought him and the clothes he wore... Help should be realistic on both sides...anna

TOOKI: I don't equate giving money to someone who walks up and asks for it to supporting organized help by responsible people who will see it goes to those who need it.

When I worked at HUD, (the Department of Housing and Urban Development) a homeless woman froze to death on the sidewalk across the street from the HUD office building in Washington. Since HUD is one of the agencies charged with housing the homeless, this caused a public outcry. Fror awhile, the Secretary ordered the lobby of the building to be opened at night to the homeless. This was discontinued after a short while. Whether there were problems, or whether he lost interest when the spotlight was off, I don't know.

Of course homeless shelters have problems. But that is no reason for not having them.

The sad thing about many homeless they really should be in a caring situation. When we moved here 32 years ago the state profided home and care for the mentally retarded. Somewhere along the line it was discontinued. A lady from our church had a granddaugter in one of those homes. She was told to pick her up or she would be left to her own devices. I am not sure now since it had been a very long time..But the grandmother did take her in...only the girl was violent ..always had been ..and strong. She broke and destroyed things. Threatened the grandmother who had to lock herself in her room at night since she was afraid of the granddaughter.. Eventually the granddaughter did break into the grandmothers room and beat her up severly enough she ended in a hospital room. I am not sure now what happened afterwards except Social Services or some organization placed the girl in a "home" and the grandmother returned to her home. To me this was such a sad story. The grandmother never completely recovered from the abuse and just lost all hope...The grancmother was placed in a nursing home since her injuries precluded her caring for herself. I am not sure any of them are even living now..we moved and no one has ever mentioned them again. anna

ANNAFAIR: yes, that was true all over, I remember there was a lot of publicity about how the mentally ill would receive better care at home. I am told many ended up on the streets. It's a national shame.

I have a mentally retarded neice who, at 35, is like a one year old, can't walk or talk. She was displaced from her home. My sister was able to find good care for her, but the situation is precarious. Once my sister and I are gone, there will be no one who could take her in.

Love the book.

I have never been without hope. I have no idea what it would be like to adopt a life of passivity, however, I do see it its ugly form in my neighborhood. For example, a resident living several blocks from me is very annoyed by her neighbor's dogs continually barking--thankfully they are not near me--she said she takes no action because she doesn't want to cause trouble. Her other neighbor said she felt like talking to the township magistrate but didn't want to get involved in anything like that. Don't want to cause trouble. Don't want to get involved. So they keep being annoyed by the dogs. Passivity.

I realize this example is on a minute scale, but it tells why the Sadam Houseins and Adolph Hitlers of this world came into power. Didn't want to get involved.

Like Mal I frequently write to my senators and congressional representatives Sometimes I do this by speaking to their local office assistant on the phone, or by regular mail or e-mail. I express my views

After I retired I was a public relations officer for the local chapter of the National Association of Retired Federal Employees (NARFE) As such I had an opportunity to meet with a few of the congressmen in my chapter's district and presented the views of retired federal employees. At the chapter meetings I would constantly remind fellow members to become active by writing their representatives in WDC or if they were not good at letter writing, to call the local office and POLITELY express their views. And by all means attend their representatives town meetings. In its own small way this is activism on an acceptable scale.

Bill H.

I don't know about anybody here but I intend to write to the NFL Commission and tell them how outrageous and appaling their half time was. I must be gettting old and I truly was embarassed to see these people in an American flag degrading themselves and our flag. thank God my kids are big enough to understand. I can't help it, it burned me up and this is the forum for just such complaining.

Hooray for you ..I didnt watch the half time activity.But someone else was telling me about it ...and I am glad I missed it..Did watch the second half though and that was an exciting end...even if I was rooting for my southern neighbors.anna

I think I would indicate you didnt want to hear a complaint if they werent willing to do something themselves.

My next door neighbot and I had a disagreement over a fence they had installed. I knew it was on my property and would not have cared except the man kept coming over on my side and cutting any of plants that were touching HIS FENCE. He also allowed the stain he used to drain onto my ground and plants and killed them. When I mentioned all of this his wife took a rather haughty view..SO I had the property surveyed and they were informed it was indeed on my land. They removed it and rebuilt inside their land ..they also had a 4' fence built in the front ...these are solid privacy fences..Now I knew that was against the covenant so I called the Zoning and Codes department and engineering..They allowed them to keep the fence but had to stop at least 12' from the street ...I rather like it but it is still against the covenants. Several of my neighbors wanted me to protest further ...I said no I like not being able to see them frankly and I can plant bushes on my side of the fence and they wont come over to my property again...my feeling I did do something ..and the neighbors who think it looks tacky should do something about it as well if they are unhappy with it. I am sure if more would the fence would come down..but I am not vindictive..I just wanted my plants to flower in peace so I could enjoy them. anna ..that feisty Irish lady again...

The comments about Blacks brings to my mind something I had forgotten - Activism on my part and my friends. It was 1950 and I was studying to be a Scout Executive at the National Center in Mendham, N.J. A few us us, one of us being black, having time off went to a movie in nearby Morristown. They would sell us Whites tickets but not the Black.
We were extremely upset, especially with all of us being the type who follow the code of the Boy Scouts of America. After making an uproar about this, we Whites refused to go in because our black friend could not. I don't suppose this caused the theatre to go broke but it was Activism on a small scale.

Robby

Many small voices become loud when they are in unison. Good for you Robbie.

Anna:-You say you "are not vindictive." That means, I assume, that you draw the line somewhere (although you are indeed a feisty lady!!) But Bill talks about people showing "passivity" by not complaining about the dogs. But they drew the line, didn't they, Bill? Past that they would have considered it vindictive. If those dogs kept me awake at night or went on constantly all day, I would have notified the authorities.

Robby

Robby I had already accomplished what I wanted ..the fence moved off of my property ..and easement in the front so I could see to back out of my driveway ...I felt if the other neighbors wanted the fence down completely they could make a complaint.

And yes I would do something about the dogs barking. First I would call dog control or whatever it is called in my city and ask what I could do about the dogs. Then if there was a law regarding it and I believe there is ..I would write a letter to my neighbor telling them they may not be aware that the dog barking was disturbing and when I called about it was told there was a law that covered it. Now I want to be a good neighbor and feel you want to be one as well. I hope we can handle this between ourselves. I love dogs but not barking ones at night..sincerely etc I do want to be a good neighbor and sometimes a veiled threat of more action works.. of course they may never speak to you again..but you just might be able to sleep through the night...now Robby you can see I am not vindictive ..just sweetly telling you what I will do...anna

Too many sweets -- I'm gaining weight!

Robby

Robby I am really chuckling which is worse than laughing...I am enjoying this discussion and read a few more of the stories or interviews in the book tonight.

Some I agree with and others not but one thing I will give the authors ..they all did something about something they cared deeply about. and that is what we should all do..care deeply and do something...anna

Studs caught my attention right away when he mentioned how he loves Mahalia Jackson. I have loved her singing for many years. It touches my soul so deeply I can't explain it. When I was about 29 years old I sang "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands" at the Pontiac Silverdrome or maybe it was in Flint. I can't remember very well so many years ago, but there were about 10,000 people in the audience. As I was leaving at the end of the show, an elderly, well-dressed black couple came up to me and said I was the only white person they'd ever seen who sang with the soul of Mahalia Jackson. I was stunned and ever so happy to hear that. I thanked them profusely and said I will carry that compliment with me the rest of my life.

Another thing Studs mentioned soon after bringing up Mahalia was the Jesuits. Two of my college years were spent at the University of Detroit, which was then run by the Jesuits. I had always hated school. I never took it very seriously at all. When I got to U of D I was a Junior in College. I had a major turn-around within a few weeks of being in their classes. They are wonderful educators. I ended up majoring in English and minoring in Philosophy and Political Science. And I loved school.

So when I saw the Jebbies and Mahalia in the book, I really felt at home, and, as Mal said, she feels like he is a friend. I agree! I felt the same at that moment in the book.

This is an interesting discussion and a stroke of genius on Robby's part to think of doing this.

I agree that a lot of what is wrong is from politics. We have to stand up and get mad and write letters, march in the streets, get involved, spread the news via word of mouth and e-mails, etc. And Pray.

Corporate Greed is what I see as one of the biggest problems and from that has stemmed a desire to run the entire world. It's intertwined with politics. How can they be separated?

Thanks for being here. I will be reading slowly becasue I'm very busy with school but I'll read as much as I can when I can and will get over here as much as I possibly can.

I recently read a book called Against Empire by Michael Parenti. He goes into great detail telling how this greed has spoiled our world. I highly, highly encourage you to read it - well, after you read Hope Dies Last. I love what I've read so far. There is also another book called The New Rulers of the World by John Pilger. That's another great read.

Again, I am so glad you are all here. I am excited about this group! Linda

What do you folks think about a fellow who says:-"Right now we're at a crucial moment where long-held aspirations for freedom and justice are under attack because of fear. Those freedoms enunciated in our Bill of Rights end up being political fodder in a terror-filled environment.
"I have great concerns about what we need to do to stand for freedom of speech, for right of association, for the rights of defendants, for the rights of people to be free in their houses from illegal searches, concerns about a government which makes wholesale spying on its people a preferred way of control."
Do you like his way of thinking? Do you agree with these comments of Kucinich which Studs quotes in the first chapter of his book?
Well, click onto THE LATEST POLL FIGURES as of 6:30 p.m. (ET) today and see what percentage of the people in our nation are behind him.

Robby

"Right now we're at a crucial moment where long-held aspirations for freedom and justice are under attack because of fear. Those freedoms enunciated in our Bill of Rights end up being political fodder in a terror-filled environment.

"I have great concerns about what we need to do to stand for freedom of speech, for right of association, for the rights of defendants, for the rights of people to be free in their houses from illegal searches, concerns about a government which makes wholesale spying on its people a preferred way of control."

Yes, I agree with this. The times we are in now is scary as can be. The Patriot Act is terrible making people afraid to be activists, afraid to stand up for their country as they know it. Then there is the TIPS thing that was begun. It is all reminiscent of Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here. The next thing they'll do is have detention centers or concentration camps for those who disagree with the government.

I agree with Kucinich and I wish he were more popular for I feel he is a good man. I remember when Studs wrote about Kucinich in The Nation magazine in an article entitled, "Kucinich is the Man" meaning the one to be the next president.

He may be lacking in many ways, but deep down his heart is strong and pure and cries out for justice - especially for those in need.

Linda

Robby I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed in the piece you quoted. Its ironic that the so called leader of Democracy is heading toward the same fate as the Iron Curtain countries. Next will it be dob in your neighbour? (dob in your neighbour means report on your neighbour) Frankly the Bush admin terrifies me. There seems to be little opposition to the Homeland Security Bill in its entirety. The upshot of the legislation is that the bill could be a means of controlling anyone who disagreed with this Administration. Scary thought isn't it?

Carolyn

The fact that there are so few participators in this discussion tells its own story. I thought there would a lot more people interested in what Studs had to say. Does this say something about the average senior in America?

Carolyn:-This discussion only began yesterday and already ten people (not counting me) have given their thoughts. I think that's pretty darn good for a little more than 24 hours.

Robby

HERE is what a Federal judge said about the Patriot Act.

Robby

Kucinch's words somehow echo the words of the brother John on p.5 who said that propaganda perpetuated by the military views the enemy as subhuman. Mal in her post 53 commented on not being treated as a human being by doctors.

Remember the official government policies toward Native Americans after the Civil War and into the twentieth century. In order to exterminate them, drive them off their lands so that white settlers could have it, herd them onto reservations, make them take off their blankets and go to boarding school where they were punished for speaking their native tongues, it was government policy to assume they were subhuman. Even the best intentioned government bureaucrats assumed the only way out for Native Americans was assimilation.

I bring up the American Indians because their systematic degradation by the government at the turn of the century seemed to coincide with another period in American history when it was bully for America.

I too am surprised to find so few here after so many announced intent to try their hand. I did not sign up because I had too many other committments. I raise money for several battered women's shelters. That takes much time from the day. Compared to Robby I am just a child of 80, but he seems to do so much more than I am able to accomplish.

Over the years I have been an activist. My primary interest is in women's issues. I am a member of NOW and of Planned Parenthood. I took to the streets with these groups supporting the right of woman to reproductive freedom of choice and am proud that I did that.

There are things that I regret not having done. I did not participate in the civil rights freedom marches. It was just not convenient to do so at the time.

I was president of a Republican club in the Nixon days and broke away when Reagan introduced the Gag Rule on support for prenatal care and contraception for foreign women. Any country receiving US aid could not give it's women prenatal care or abortion rights and retain access to US dollars. That rule was killed by Clinton and renewed by BUSH in his first week in office.

JUSTIN: I'm glad to see you here. I wondered where you were, as this looks like your cup of tea.

I have noticed many times through the years that people do not seem to recognize when their rights and liberties are being threatened. When I worked for the government, there were several times when things were proposed that were to me clear violations of constitutuonal rights. When I would point that out, I would be met with complete lack of comprehension. I learned to simply say "we need to get legal advice on that. It may be illegal. That usually quashed it. People were afraid to break the law, but didn't understand or care what the law was.

I am very concerned about the threats to our rights by the current legislation. The only thing that relieves that concern is that I note in other times of war or danger, rights have been suspended, but later there was a reaction the other way. I think of the internment of Japanese during WWII, the suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War. But these things are only righted if we speak out and agitate.

Whenever I read of one person whose rights are violated by intrusion into their home on suspicion they are criminals it angers me beyond measure. With all the ways available to check the truth before kicking a door in and invading a home it will always be inexcuseable in my mind. I have come to the conclusion I would rather see a hundred criminals get away than one person's rights taken away ...

Regarding the suggestion there are few posters here....these are not easy subjects to discuss. They require thought ...careful thought because we are asking whether we see a wrong in some government activities and what course we would suggest.

Homeland security worries me...I beleive as a people we are not given credit for good sense. Long before 9/11 it was obvious to me we were being targeted. And yes I believe we should always be aware we are vulnerable. BUT and that is a big But ...to live in fear is not living. Years ago when people were building underground shelters in the event of an atomic war I wouldnt even consider it. My children would come home and tell me we were a prime target. My reply was GOOD for I dont want to live in a world that is bent on destroying each other. I still dont. anna

I've about decided that Americans won't elect a president who is Black, Jewish, or female, or a person who doesn't have an "All-American" name. Look how long it took for the people of this country to put a Catholic in the White House. I wonder how long it will be before we elect another? Right now man-of-the-people Dennis Kucinich doesn't stand a chance.

JOANK is right. People don't realize when their rights are being threatened. I was jumped on hard when I said in another discussion that the rights of women are being taken away by the present administration. People didn't believe me, even when I gave proof.

Mal

Studs' book is about Hope. He quotes Kucinich:-
"I always have looked at each day with a sense of excitement, a sense of optimism, a sense of wonder and joy at the possibilitis of that new day. I've had that since I was a child. I was on the streets a lot. That's where I got my education.
"Whenever I'd see something that was unfair, I said so. I was outspoken as a child. I'd raise my hand in class if I disagreed. I would always offer my opinion, even if no one was interested in lisening. My mother taught me how to read when I was three years old. I read Emerson's essay on self-reliance when I was in the fifth grade.
"My parents had a lot of ups and downs. From the time I was born until the time I was seventeen years old, we lived in about twenty-one different places. It was a lot of poverty, illness.
"My own experience growing up doesn't really square with the optimism that I have. There was a time when within a period of about a year, we may have lived in six different places, including a car. We'd use the bathrooms of the taverns in the neighborhood."
I can't say we had the poverty that Kucinich had although we were not well-to-do either. But I did have (and DO have) the same optimism he has. My license plate says:-"ALL-OK." I wake up each morning with the same desire to see the new day. I, also, could read when I was three years old and was also the student with the hand up if I disagreed. I owe whatever I may be or have accomplished to my mother and I hear Kucinich saying the same.
I would love to see him as President. But as Mal says:-"Not a chance!" There comes a time when one must think on a practical level, "hope" notwithstanding.

Robby

I too greet each day full of optimism and ready to see what the day will bring.....today it has brought chilling temperatures a beautiful covering of snow and ice twinkling in the trees BUT the sun is shining..... Robby and Mal.....I really don't think Mr. Kucinich's name has anything to do with why he cannot be elected president...I think it is the policy's he espouses.....As we know the country is very polarized and divided and he is far , far, to liberal to please most Americans..... Joe Lieberman I believe to be a very good man but far to moderate for the liberal wing of the Democratic Party..... We have a primary here in Missouri today and I will be voting for sure as like many of you have never ever not voted...... Some interesting comments have been made concerning the Patriot Act.....Which part of the Patriot Act is bad and why do you think so?

Tigerliley:-I don't agree with you about the liberal-moderate bit. That refers to issues. I have a very dull view of the average thinking level of the population. Maybe that comment indicates a certain amount of conceit on my part but I truly believe that.
The "people" are interested in a horse race, not what is best of the nation. Not the issues. And the media help by giving headlines (and that's all they give some times -- no details) about the horse race. Most people just want bread and circuses. Give me something to eat (jobs) and entertainment (TV).
But I keep hoping!!

Robby

Robby

Unfortunately, I was unable to acquire the book you discussing at the moment. Will try to get it again. But in the meantime:

You all mentioned "Homeless Shelters", In this town, no one wanted the shelter in their neighborhood- why - because of underlying fear. The accountability of those who run the shelter here have the responsiblity to the "Homeless", the Neighborhood and the town. The shelter I am speaking of is in my neighborhood. But, not in the residential section IT IS BETWEEN to BARS. Does that make sense?

Allow me to tell you a very short story! There was a young girl who came from across the Old Country. She was constantly telling us what she disliked out our country. I had heard enough of her bashing then turned to her and said "Could you get away with speaking of your former country in that manner" She said NO. My response was "Isn't grand that you don't have to live in FEAR anymore". She couldn't answer she never had thought of it before.

And then there was a time when speaking with foreign students here, I learned that they had to be on their best behavior as they were being watched by fellow country men and how they behaved here reflected on their country if they became to Americanized their families back home suffered.

I can not fathom living in FEAR, nor will I not speak out when I deem something is wrong.

Like my old boss said to me one day "I am used to people asking "How High to Jump" but not you "You always ask "WHY".

Good to have you joining us, Moxi!
After reading about Kucinich, the story about him and the topic of "homeless" seem to go together.

Robby

Rights,

Working in the Foreign Service I was posted in many Countries in which the citizens did not have any Rights at all except to keep their head down and mouth shut. I am always surprised at how easy the people in this country give up their rights. It would seem that many would prefer a strong man to take control so that they would have someone to tell them what to do when and why to do it.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom:-That's great that you are joining us here!!
This forum is about Activism. Having been in the Foreign Service, what do you suggest that those of here DO -- not just talk -- about holding on to our rights?

Robby

Robby,

Don't let the government get too powerful. I wish that there was not a one party governmenet as we have now. I have seen too many one party governments keep themselves in power forwever through terror after they had consolidated their initial elevation to the reins of government.

Of course, it takes courage, lots of it, to go up against an entrenched group that controls the government. It can be very dangerous. Right now, our Government hasn't reached the stage where it can intimidate the populace completely but unless it is removed we can see the day when elections will be cancelled and then done away with completely for whatever reason the government advances.

Tiger Tom

One other thing,

DON'T ever believe that it CAN'T HAPPEN HERE.

It can. All it takes is a docile population that believes it is being threatened and that only the government can protect it and will go along with what the government does, no matter what.

Tiger Tom

Fear is a great mechanism for control.

Carolyn

Tiger Tom I couldnt agree more...and I have to believe there are enough thinkers in our society ( they dont speak out and perhaps there is a fear there...whistle blowers are often victimized) to make a difference.

I have always wished we had more choices...a two party system is not a choice. anna

Anna we had a two party system for years and it did not work for the people now we have a multi party Parliament based on Proportional Representation - everyone has a voice. With coalition govts in power it keeps things in balance. The left can't go too loony and the right cannot become too extreme. Its a great system.

I disagree with MOST of what has so far been said. First of all, Americans, always having lived in freedom, have no idea how complex thousands of years of politics and social pressures are to create some of the situations we see in other countries. So Americans walk in with a "quick fix" and then don't understand why it's resented.

Americans in general are also profoundly ignorant about complexities of situations. They follow "fads" or "trends" and "feel good" situations which are surface things and ultimately make no difference in the problems whatsoever, and sometimes even DO DAMAGE.

Here are some of the "quick fixes" I see just in this discussion:

Remember the official government policies toward Native Americans after the Civil War and into the twentieth century. In order to exterminate them, drive them off their lands so that white settlers could have it, herd them onto reservations, make them take off their blankets and go to boarding school where they were punished for speaking their native tongues, it was government policy to assume they were subhuman. Even the best intentioned government bureaucrats assumed the only way out for Native Americans was assimilation.

-- Actually Tooki, most of that exact same stuff is STILL GOING ON, right under your noses, but since the news media doesn't tell it, and the government makes many complicated laws that the average person does not understand, we think it's history. I can guarantee THAT IT'S NOT HISTORY. I spent many, many months on the Navajo reservation when my daughter married into a Navajo family and saw what went on there.

Did you know, for instance, that uranium mining went on there, and while the rest of the state of Arizona is protected from mining damage, the reservation is NOT. The reservation is HELD IN TRUST by the federal government; in other words, the land does NOT belong to the Navajo. The Bureau of Indian Affairs still holds the power, gives away mining and grazing rights, and if the Indians complain they are threatened every bit as much as they were in our history. The Colorado River runs right by the rez, but the Indians are not allowed to divert water from it for their agricultural uses, and so it flows to our cities to grow green lawns. I'm touching only the surface here. If you look underneath, I think you would be surprised at how inhumane our ignorance is regarding this subject.

The only hope I have is that many Indians these days are actually beginning to go to law school, and the new warrior will be the Indian lawyer go learns to disentangle all the complex laws that have been made deliberately to tie Indian hands and leave them powerless.

I shall continue - - -

I realize this example is on a minute scale, but it tells why the Sadam Houseins and Adolph Hitlers of this world came into power. Didn't want to get involved.

--- Not so. It wasn't apathy that created Husseins and Hitlers; it was hundreds of years of history, geography, religion, social customs. Unless one understands what truly happened to create a Hitler, one will always to vulnerabel to creating another one, and so far I have NOT EVEN ONCE seen a history book that explains how Hitler got into power and the history behind all of it that has any semblance of truth to it.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way to keep such a one from gaining power again is by knowing exactly how it happened. And Mr. Bush is so far from being a Hitler that it's pathetic that the comparison is even made by some of the left-wing element. To me it shows that such people do not understand the dynamics of how a dictator gets into power.

. I have come to the conclusion that most conservatives are narrow-minded, see it their way and that is that. Liberals are more open-minded and are open to examine the other side. What are called conservatives are, in my mind, those who say:'"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts." You now see where I stand

-- once again, I disagree completely. The above may be true in some ways; but I have seen liberals who are equally ignorant and who jump in with their quick fix before they know what is really going on, doing more damage along the way. Thinks in the USA are so polarized these days that neither side makes a whole lot of sense. At their best I think both conservatives and liberals want to see a better world and a just world, but their ways of reaching that are different. The modern liberal often wants to give the shop away. Open a store and then give it all away to any needy person who comes in. The modern conservative, on the other hand, jacks up prices and tries to get rich.

But at their best both of them really only want to treat everyone fairly. Personally I think the way to do that is with both methods: give the hungry man a fish while he's hungry, but also teach him how to fish so he can teach others how to fish. And if he makes some money at that to make a better life for himself, that's OK too.

Somewhere along the line in our polarization we've lost common sense. We try to help everyone, even those who refuse to learn how to fish, and then wonder why the taxpayer is unhappy about that. In the meantime we make laws and rules that are so complicated that the average person never really does know what is going on.

I want to give an example. I used to be the typical city environmentalist who believed in "keeping our forests", belonged to the Sierra Club, etc., etc.,---that is, until the day I moved to lumber country in the middle of our national forests and saw what really goes on here.

So once more, I shall continue in the next post. The situation is VERY complex.

I moved here and began talking to people and reading and attending meetings. It turns out that everyone has good intentions, but everyone is polarized, and no one is all right and no one is all wrong.

The lumber companies have ravaged our forests. Then the environmentalists got involved and put pressure on the federal government, and the federal government went with what the environmentalists wanted. So now we have a mess---forests left in shambles because we fight fires in them and don't allow fires to burn out the undergrowth, which causes explosions to happen with the slightest spark or a lightning bolt, and all the subsequen devastation and land erosion. Instead of allowing lumber companies to keep the forests clean by allowing judicious cutting, the forest service has bent under the pressure of the environmentalists who chain themselves to trees and spike trees which actually kill the lumbermen who cut into them.

These small towns in the county where I live used to all have their small lumber mills and work was plentiful. Actually the lumber companies (the responsible ones) have always known that they need to replant in order to keep their jobs, and they have done that. But many years ago on public land the forest service (federal) REQUIRED the lumber companies to clear-cut and you begin to wonder how many pay-offs there were to do that because the clear-cutting was usually done about 2 miles from the nearest highway so the public was unaware. But the lumber companies had to do what the forest service said while they continued replanting their own lands. The the fad changed. The environmentalists got involved put pressure on and the forest service changed completely. Not even a pine cone was to be picked up in a national forest, and the undergrowth grew so thick that the Yellowstone fire was bound to happen. I recall driving through there and KNEW it was an explosion just waiting to happen.

In the meantime the environmentalists screamed about the spotted owl being endangered (not so!), chained themselves to trees, spiked trees and killed workers, and put endless pressure on Uncle Sam. And the result is we have forests so thick with undergrowth that no deer can pass through it, and we live with fire danger every moment of our lives.

Even the American Indian knew better. They used to have controlled burns or let lightning to its work before the white man ever came here. They knew that certain tree species can only survive if their cones are burned by fire. They knew that deer herds survive on grass in forest that is clean and clear. They knew that the grass that grew in a clear forest also kept the soil from eroding. But it seems the environmentalists didn't. They just jumped on the bandwagon and raised hell. Activism for a cause that was ignorant is what I call it.

At least in our town, after shooting at each other, not frequenting the same restaurants, hurling nasty names at each other, three brave souls got together from the forest service, the lumber companies, and the environmental groups, and began talking. They called it the Quincy Library Group because they met in the library which was the only place they had in which to meet. At first there was a lot of anger, but they persisted. And lo and behold, eventually they all found out they wanted the same thing, healthy forests. When they realized that they also began to realize that none of them were 100% right and none of them were 100% wrong, and they went to work to settle their differences and reached agreement.

Turns out that the more people heard about this the more joined, and eventually they knitted together a bill to present to the local congressman and then the state senator, who presented it to Congress. AND IT WORKED. Last year Congress approved the bill, and three national forests in this general area will now have a 5-year experimental project going, with limited timber cutting, limited road building, keeping old growth forest, and everyone is reasonably happy----except the far-out environmentalists who still have not seen the light and are still preaching endless inaccuracies.

But reasonable people got together and figured out a way to keep sustained forest growth, access to the public on public lands, and also to keep work in the lumber mills going. THREE PEOPLE began it with a whole lot of hope. And now we will have to see if they were right.

But the environmentalists, including the Sierra Club, are still not happy. They want it all their way, and their advertising is false with sometimes outright lies printed.

So to me one of the first things to do before activism comes into any sort of play is to get all the facts, make sure the facts are accurate, that you know what's going on behind the scenes, that you know ALL SIDES, and not just jump in to do more damage, which alas, is exactly what I think a whole lot of activism in this country does and which polarizes situations even more.

Computer problems interfered, sorry.

Robby, where are we in the book?

jawing about "saving the rainforest". First of all, we cleared forests in this country in order to have land to grow food, so who are we to deny that right to other developing countries now? We have our land for growing food. They don't.

At the same time, a lot of land in the rainforests is being cleared in order to make grazing land for OUR HAMBURGERS. So if we really mean what we say, we are the ones who need to cut the crap and get our act together. We are the ones who deny a small farmer in some So. American country the right to clear land to feed his family; while at the same time eating our delicious hamburgers which often come from cattle grazed on that very land where the rainforest has been cut. But money talks, and we have the money---but we have no common sense. Just fads and vague ideas about how the world "should be" according to what ignorant people think.

We also have a news media that thrives on sensationalism without any depth whatsoever. One can find it if one searches, but one does have to search. The 6 o'clock news is NOT going to hand it to us. And all the Europeans I have ever spoken to, including family that has visited me here, say the same thing----that Americans have every bit as much propagando in their news media as ever has been anywhere.

I'm not saying their news media doesn't have propaganda, because it does. What I am saying is that a responsible citizen digs beneath the surface, that it's hard work, that situations are endlessly complicated with endless knots, and that a pretty face on the 6 o'clock news is not gonna give us the best information, in Europe or here, and that self-indulgence and "feel-good" quickie solutions most often do not solve a damned thing.

We, as a people, have to learn to live simply, use less, become more aware, quit following fads and propaganda, dig and see for ourselves, get familiar with what the politicians do and hold them accountable, and that means NO MATTER WHAT PARTY THEY BELONG TO. I think being either a liberal or a conservative is for the birds, a groove, and just like no one in the forest service/environmentalists/lumber company was all right or all wrong, neither is any one party all right or all wrong.

So let's get UNPOLARIZED and look AT THE PROBLEM from all sides and then put pressure on the politicians to get their act together. It behooves us to do it in much the same way as the Quincy Library Group did. Politicans work for votes. If we don't have enough votes they aren't going to listen. So we begin small and form groups, learn the facts, quit jumping to conclusions before we have those facts, learn that others want pretty much the same things, and then work to put it all together, presenting a politician with ANSWERS and not just endless complaints.

Excellent suggestions, full of "sound and fury".

As I see it, we are more polarized than we have evr been before. We, by and large, are the "little people".How do we "use less" when we are being advised to buy, buy, buy. Yes, we absolutely must read for ouselves, do research and then what?

I've already posted this story in the political threads, but it bears repeating. For weeks, I had been receiving material telling me how much this company wanted to send me a credit card. I finally relented last night and called the company and giving them all the pertinent information, I was told two things...1)I would be apprised of my acceptance or nom-acceptance within 10 days. So all the propaganda about "being chosen" was nonsense! 2) because of the Patriot Act, I would have to pass muster before the card is issued. "The Patriot Act? hmmmmm

Does signing petitions, campaigning for candidates, and making donations make me a terrorist? What are the perameters of this investigation?

I have plenty of credit cards, so I don't really neeed this one, but now I'm curious. As I said in that other thread...I'm warning my son that if I can't be found for a few days, he'd best check Gitmo!

I've just discovered Senior Net and I think this is going to be an interesting discussion.

Mountain Rose I think your posts are exactly what Robby is encouraging. And the news media is so discouraging...all you get is sound bytes ..and frankly I dont know where to go to get indepth , honest news. I read a variety of news etc from a number of different sources and it is almost impossible to know who is telling the truth ..I feel Joe Friday from the old tv show..JUST THE FACTS .is what I want to hear. But apparantly whose facts have to come into question, the real facts, the facts as different persons view it etc...I have lived long enough and it different parts of this country to see some things for myself and that helps. But what about my children who havent seen for themselves and have to rely on what they are hearing and reading?

anna

"Studs caught my attention right away when he mentioned how he loves Mahalia Jackson. I have loved her singing for many years. It touches my soul so deeply I can't explain it. When I was about 29 years old I sang "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands" at the Pontiac Silverdrome or maybe it was in Flint. I can't remember very well so many years ago, but there were about 10,000 people in the audience. As I was leaving at the end of the show, an elderly, well-dressed black couple came up to me and said I was the only white person they'd ever seen who sang with the soul of Mahalia Jackson. I was stunned and ever so happy to hear that. I thanked them profusely and said I will carry that compliment with me the rest of my life."

Hairy, when you mentioned Mahalia Jackson, you caught my attention. I have always enjoyed her singing. What a loss to the musical world when she died. I do not have the book. So, I can only lurk here. I have read the posts. Now, I am going to see if my library owns the book.

MOUNTAIN ROSE, you believe polarization is a big problem in this country. What are you doing besides post here to help it become less polarized?

Mal

nanaleni, insofar as the book, we started with the Introduction which has included many comments on or related to activism then it seems we've skipped the Prologue with the comments of the physician and the priest and are now at Dennis Kucinich' comments in Part I, Mr. Smith Goes To Washington.

Right, Robbie?

MountainRose

Was your handle once Mountaingal?

Tiger Tom

question about the news media. I think they have abrogated their duty to keep free citizens truly informed, and they use trivia and sensationalism to catch our attention to sell us products, or further their own careers. But whose fault is that? I think it's OUR FAULT! We buy into it. We watch it and think we know what's going on. But our libraries are filled with other views in magazines, newspapers, foreign papers; and so is the internet. Much of it is lies and half-truths and sometimes outright falehoods, and one has to learn to read between the lines and remember what one read yesterday to see if it matches what one reads today. Usually the truth lies somewhere in the middle, not at either end, and truth is different for different people depending on their experience. So it behooves us to listen to those experiences and at least take them into consideration even if we don't agree.

I read constantly, everything I can get my hands on, pro and con, domestic, foreign, and even way-out-there literature that I would never agree with, and I try to connect the dots and remember what I read last week or last month or last year, so I can connect those dots in the best way I know how. We have a short attention span, and a short attention span is the surest way for propaganda to do its work on the 6 o'clock news. We also ought to know our history, how things happened, why they happened, beyond the sort of propaganda we learned in school or in our news media, and we ought to have a bit more patience with not demanding instant results. Everything in life is an experiment in one way or another and paradise results are never guaranteed. Humans make mistakes, even when intentions were good, but we ought to learn from them.

The information is available in this country---if we search for it. And I also think that people who are busy working, raising a family, trying to keep their heads above water, don't have the sort of time or even the intellect to be able to do that. And that's where we come in, we who are retired and do have the time and can make waves---hopefully not just for our own benefit, but for everyone's benefit.

I absolutely HATE to see America's wondrous energy dissipated by polarization and partisanship and trivia and fads and greed. The USA is a wonderful experiment on this planet Earth, and has been from the first. Even our founding fathers pounded the table and had differences. That doesn't matter, but I think entrenchment and not listening to each other is harmful, and constant complaining without solutions only creates negative energy.

I don't know anyone who doesn't want a better world for all people except maybe a dictator, whether democrat or republican, liberal or conservative, socialist or communist. We just have different ways of solving the problems, and in order to keep from polarization we need to lay the problems on the table, shout and yell at each other, and then reach some sort of compromise we can all live with. And it begins with each one of us, on a personal and local level, and with facts instead of foggy dreams and sentimentality and private vendettas.

Yes Tiger Tom, that's me. I was gone from SN for over a year, and when I came back for some reason they wouldn't let me use that name. so I changed it and it's now "MountainRose", so it's almost the same. But I have the same style of writing and the same passion and am definitely the same person.

And I disagree with a whole lot of things I see written here on SN and everywhere else too, and am not afraid to say so. I try to do so without becoming personal, but that same courtesy has not always been extended to me.

I have enjoyed your posts and agree with most of them. I disagree with the idea that we must dig so deep and spend all of that time doing research to try and discover the truth. What has happened to the integrity of news reporters? Even as I say this, I hear this buzzing answer in my head that keeps repeating, "it has to sell, it has to sell."

Robby has asked that this not become a forum for political views. Because most of the issues facing the nation and the world at large is dependent on the decisions made by leaders of countries how can we keep politics out of it?

If millions of dollars are designated for marriage counseling instead of creation of jobs that is not a decision I can have any say so in. Thus, politics! Personally. I think if hubby was at work instead of hanging around the house all day filled with the anxiety of where he can find work after being downsized...the marriage wouldn't need a counselor!

only say that I read much, discuss much, write a whole lot of letters, and I try not to jump to false conclusions. And personally I prefer to help someone in need in a personal way instead of through an organization, and I prefer to do that unobtrusively and without fanfare. In that sense I guess you could call me "conservative".

Nor do I pretend to have all the answers or pretend to know all that goes on behind the scenes. Good grief, anyone who has read a simple mystery ought to know that there is a whole lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that is NEVER reported to us, and from the surface of what we do get to read I think we ought to be able to figure soem things out for ourselves, or at least be open enough to discuss them and learn what the other person may have figured out too.

That's something I think I learned very well from both my father during Hitler's time in Germany where the news media, as we all know, was pure propaganda, as well as a Dutchman who used to work in the Dutch underground in Holland during WWII. They taught me all I know about reading between the lines and connecting dots and seeing what's underneath. And often what's underneath is so much more than what we see on the surface, like an iceberg. One way to bring those things to the surface is to be open and lay them out on the table openly, even if there's controversy.

Every problem we have deserves discussion, whether it's the war in Iraq or global warming. I happen to believe, from all my reading, that global warming is a crock. You are free to believe differently. There are scientists on both sides of the issue and there is history too which tells us that Greenland was at one time "green", which obviously must mean that even if there is a warming trend, it will not destroy the earth as the fanatics lead us to believe.

That also doesn't mean I believe in going off and just doing whatever it is we are doing, wasting and using in endless greed. It means I'm on the side of caution without becoming hysterical about it, and listening to what ALL have to say until I have definite PROOF. I don't believe in jumping over the cliff with either conservative or liberal lemmings---nor socialist or communist lemmings, and certainly NEVER a dictator lemming.

"If millions of dollars are designated for marriage counseling instead of creation of jobs that is not a decision I can have any say so in. Thus, politics! Personally. I think if hubby was at work instead of hanging around the house all day filled with the anxiety of where he can find work after being downsized...the marriage wouldn't need a counselor!"

-- Yes, it is politics, but it is also a decision you do have a say-so in with your vote and with writing letters, attending meetings, agitation, talking about it with friends or here, etc. etc.

We as a country have a finite amount of wealth, and we must allocate it. That causes controversy because people want to allocate it in different ways. So we must fight it out on a personal and local level and present our case to higher levels as we go. It is difficult to decide what national security should cost vs social welfare, especially when there is a lot of pork barrelling and incorrect information, if we should stay in Iraq and try to help those people with potential failure because they need to "learn" what freedom is before they can be free or go to Mars, if we should have national health care or foreign aid, whether we should let the market find it's own level or fight outsourcing to foreign countries. And in outsourcing, are we as a country weakening ourselves? Are we helping China to eventually swallow us?

These are complex problems. They have no easy answers. I personally don't like easy answers because they usually solve nothing. Some of them will never be answered except by history, and in the meantime we can only do the best we can from our limited vision. But that vision better be as broad as we can make it without being polarized and entrenched and believing our answer is the only "right" answer. Most problems do have more than one solution.

MOUNTAINROSE: thank you for your comments on the environment. They are badly needed. I am an environmentalist, and belong to several naturalist organizations, but I have always been worries about there sometimes simplistic approaches to things. I didn't know enough to know what was wrong, but I felt there had to be more to it.

I think you have also put your finger on a very basic problem that is at the root of a lot of seemingly unrelated problems: the fact that our economy is based on a system of "buy, buy, buy ---- more and more and ever more". The minute people stop buying, even for a minute, there is a recession and people are out of work. Then we have to have a war, because their is nobody that "buy, buy, buys" better than the military, so now people will have jobs so we can "buy, buy, buy some more. Meanwhile, we are ruining the environment, not just for ourselves but for the whole world. The people who don't have the money to "buy, buy, buy" are ghettoized in unspeakable housing conditions: spending the money for decent housing for them doesn't matter, since they are not "productive" -- ie buying buying buying. Their children see the only way to reach the American dream of buy, buy, buy is crime or drugs etc. etc.

I don't have any idea what to do about it on a social level. Personally, we drive a 13 year old car, and use a 33 year old refrigerator (Harvest Gold and all), not because we can't afford new ones, but because they STILL WORK. But if everyone did that,we would have a major recession and everyone would be out of work.

Sorry I got started.

Robbie, The Dylan Thomas quote you have in the heading has a typo. It should read:
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

I don't have the book yet, but have read all the interesting posts. I'm not sure how many of them relate directly to the book.

As far as activism is concerned, sometimes it's hard to tell what the end result might be. Years ago, when my father-in-law became a senior citizen, he became involved in political activism. The object was to punish Lyndon Johnson for his expansion of the Vietnam War. The DUMP JOHNSON movement was born. It was very successful. Unfortunately, the end result was Richard Nixon, the bombing of Cambodia, and a further escalation of the war--not to mention the "Enemies List" and all sorts of other abridgements of citizen's rights.

The future is shrouded in fog, and we don't always know what our activism will produce. Maybe that's one reason for starting locally with issues we know more about and have greater control over.
______________________________________________________________________

A few posters suggested that seniors were apathetic. I can remember a Seniors March on Washington when hundreds of seniors camped on the steps of the Capitol, waited for their representatives and senators to emerge, and mobbed the limos that were picking them up. This resulted in a quick defeat of the Medicare bill the seniors were against at the time. This can be a very active group when their interests are involved.

I just want to give an example of what people can do if they are open and aware and curious. In one hospital where I worked we had a seminar in which we did an experiment. We were divided into groups, and each group was given a list of items, about 30 or so, and we were told to list them in the order of importance we might need them if we were in a plane crash, survived, and had to await rescue on a snowy mountaintop. Each group was given one item at the top of the list with it's correct order.

So we all went to work and decided the order of items, and it turns out all of us were WRONG. Why? Because not a single one of us had gone outside of our own group to ask what item was listed in what order on the other groups' lists. If we had done that we would have had the correct order of all the items, since each group was given a different hint.

That's the way I see society. We are in our little groups and no one ever asks, "Hey, let's see what they think over there." We are that way as countries and, for that matter, in any group, small or large. Groups become entrenched, even as large as the U.N. It's very rare where someone comes in and rocks the boat and says, "Hey, I'm not sure that's all there is to this picture. Let's see what everyone else has to say about this."

But the whole picture would likely emerge if we did that.

The United States has always been "polarized". It amuses me, too, because people in Europe and other countries see very little difference between the two parties in the U.S. Come to think of it, neither can I. If a Socialist party were strong enough for its candidates to be elected, there would be something to be polarized about.

What's bothering a great many people in this country is the way the last year 2000 presidential election was decided. Only once before was a president appointed, and it was not done in the way this one was.

It is extremes that worry me. The current administration reacted to an extreme act of violence by committing our government and us the people, to further extreme acts of violence.

The Patriot Act seems to me to be an extreme piece of legislation. For example:

"The Patriot Act amended the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to give the FBI vastly expanded authority to search business records, including the records of bookstores and libraries: the FBI may request the records secretly; it is not required to prove that there is 'probable cause' to believe the person whose records are being sought has committed a crime; and, the bookseller or librarian who receives an order is prohibited from revealing it to anyone except those whose help is needed to produce the records."

Source:

Booksellers endorse amendments to Patriot Act

The Patriot Act also makes it legal to search the records of students and find the source and amount of the income of these students' parents. Wiretapping use and other search measures have been extended to cover nearly every citizen in the United States. Our right to privacy is seriously threatened by the Patriot Act as it now stands. And there's more. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Read the small print:

USA Patriot Act HR 3162

Mal

"The future is shrouded in fog, and we don't always know what our activism will produce. Maybe that's one reason for starting locally with issues we know more about and have greater control over."

"What's bothering a great many people in this country is the way the last year 2000 presidential election was decided. Only once before was a president appointed, and it was not done in the way this one was." --- Yes, I agree, it ought to bother people, and it was a worrisome precedent---and I say that even though I voted for Bush. A very similar thing happened with Hitler. Hitler was NOT elected until later elections, after he already had control. Hitler was appointed by von Hindenburg when Hindenburg felt he was dying and leaving a power vacuum. So the way that whole election happened disturbed me a great deal. Hopefully there are constitutional safeguards that will prevent anything worse happening.

But we must remember that even the Soviet constitution under communism guaranteed certain things, such as freedom of religion, and we all know that in reality that never was so. So the citizen must ALWAYS be on guard, always question, and always make his/her views known, forcefully if necessary. We do have that opportunity at the polls, even though the candidates that are handed to us are often unknown and not worthy.

I am also VERY uncomfortable with the Patriot Act. I'm not sure how we can protect ourselves as we MUST after 9/11, but there has to be a better way to do it than with that sort of curtailing of our freedoms. The very talk of it sends shivers down my spine, and it frightens me to death---and that's even though I agree with Bush about Iraq (which I won't go into here).

Good rant, Mountain Rose. But whatever did I say in my post about American Indians to imply I though things were "fixed." No, don't answer! Your comments were explanatory. Given the global, political, and profound implications of what's being said here, perhaps no one wants to hear anymore about the Superbowl. Here goes anyway.

To judge by the tut, tutting, the whining and outrage, that Superbowl half time show was something else, and the ads were as wretched as Robby's New York Times post described. Is there room here for activism?

The TV commentator, Peter Ames Carlin, in my newspaper, the Portland Oregonian, had these comments to make.

(The activities surrounding the Superbowl) "are an exercise in free market popular culture: A minute-to-minute barometer of American ideals and values…paid for almost entirely by ads for or about sex, alcohol, dangerously fast cars and rock 'n' roll." All of this "gives us a vivid look into the paradoxical heart of American popular culture: That star-spangled fantasy land where even the loudest declarations of moralism can't drown out the siren song of porn, cigarettes, junk food and Budweiser."

Is there any way to stop this hypocritical dumbing down and proletarianization of America? Or is that, too, something that can be achieved by political activity? I can't see how it would make any difference whether Bush or Kucinich was in the White House in the number of young men strutting about dressed in the American flag and Janet Jackson being half nude.

Welcome, Mary P, we are very glad to welcome you into our Books & Literature sections and I think you are right, this appears to be a VERY interesting discussion.

So glad to have you!

ginny

In the face of the worst situations and the most depressing conditions, hope DOES die last.

I scanned the book before I read it and I can understand why the American Revolution, the Civil War and the Civil Rights protests happened.

There was an undying hope for something better.

My father was a WWI veteran and the bonus a was a big HOPE in the lives of these vets. It took a confrontation in Washington to bring it about.

There has to be hope for today's vets that the government will fulfill its promises for health care and pensions.

I am in disagreement somewhat with some of you. I don't know about your politicians but if we are violently in disagreement with a policy they do listen and there is action on the matter.

I believe politics affects every facet of our lives and one cannot separate most contentious issues from Politics. Every issue most dear to the human heart is controlled by Political decisions. Healthcare, Education, Employment. I believe these are the things which most often concern every human being on a day to day basis.

I believe every human being has a right to basic healthcare if only on a humanitarian basis. I believe every child has a right to receive an education which is of an acceptable standard. I believe every person has the right to self respect by obtaining meaningful employment. I make my opinions heard by mailing politicians including our PM about any issue which concerns me. I phone talk back radio ( our politicians monitor these programs all the time) and do anything I can to try and change things. I am a volunteer for a Political Party and do things like enveloping for the mail drops.

I also make my voice heard here on the SN Political discussions (making sure I don my crash helmet first) I have even mailed the White House at times. I don't think they like me much I could not send a mail last time I tried!

Carolyn

Dennis Kucinich

The account of Representative David Kucinich's life gave a dramatic meaning to the word hope. His life explains the word succinctly. This man doesn't know the meaning of the word loser. There is no denying he had a hard life but he always carried hope with him.

I didn't know much about Kucinich because he is from a neighboring state and I never attended any of his town meetings. When I saw Dennis on the first 2004 Democrat Candidate Primary discussion. I thought "What makes him believe he even has a chance to win the nomination." After reading his interview with Terkel, I could see this guy keeps plugging away because all his life he never gave into losing. . After reading that account I paid more attention to Rep Kucinich during the discussions and I could see there was more to this fellow than what first meets the eye.

I'm of the opinion he stays in the race for a couple of reasons: He has a message to get across to the rest of us in the "hope" of waking us up. .Also, this may be giving him the national recognition that he has been waiting for. Who knows perhaps he has Senate seat in mind.

Bill H.

Yes. there are many Democratic candidates who have things to say that are considered "over the edge".We lost Paul Wellstone in a plane crash, but Kucinich is very much in the same mold.

I have a suggestion to those of you who do not have Studs' new book. Go to Google and read about him! This is a man who talks the talk and walks the walk. That's what we all need to do!

As I sit here I am listening to the results of today's primaries. John Edwards won his state and his speech was inspiring. Does everyone know what is happening? Has anyone contributed either with action or donations or both? This is a very important election and will have much to do with where we go for the next four years.

We are so lucky to have computers! We are able to search out opinions from all over the world. We all need to take advantage of this new age of information. What would Studs be talking about if he was not at the tail end of his life? And if he would get a computer and use it....

I have just returned home from work and see that the size of the table has grown and there are more people sitting around it and voices are rising. Welcome Mountain Rose! You seem to have dominated much of the conversation with long monologues. Maybe they were worth listening to -- I don't want to judge merely by their length. I'll get back with a reaction after I have gone over them.
And welcome, Mary P! And glad to see you here, Ginny, although I didn't hear you make any comments related to the discussion. Were you intimitated? And welcome to those who had said in advance that they would be here but arrived a bit late -- Horselover, Aviaqua, and Camper 2 (Marge). And welcome to HATS but I didn't catch the connection between what you said and the topics in Studs' book.
And Nanaleni, regarding your question:-"Where are we in the book?" An excellent question! Technically, we are at Chapter One (Representative Dennis Kucinich). We got onto other things and although I haven't had a chance to read the scores of postings since I left the house, I assume that everyone gave everyone else a chance.
Remember, the theme of Studs' book is "Hope." Kucinich said:-"It was shocking to me that you could actually do the right thing and lose." Did anyone speak to that?

Robby

John Edwards is a senator from North Carolina. He was born in South Carolina.

Anybody can do the "right thing". It's convincing other people that it's the right thing which is the big job.

Mal

Mountainrose,

Thought so. How about coming to the "Why we read what we read" discussion it could use some stimulation.

Tiger Tom

Robby when did anyone in Books not give anyone a chance- we are all able to get in and give our opinions. We are not babies you know!

I have gleened much from each of you and Now have much to think about.

I have bought the book but have not got into it much do to personal things going on here but WOW know that I think You are the Greatest people and Will make a difference in So Many ways. I Love S/N because of "You".

No one has yet responded to the question about the Patriot Act so I will try. It is an infringment of our constitutional rights. A Federal Judge in L.A.has struck down one portion of the law-that of giving advice to terrorist groups. This portion of the was struck down because the definition of Terrorist groups was too vague.

Let's look at the rest of the Act which President Bush has asked Congress to extend.

The Fourth Amendment protects us all against unreasonable searches and seizures. Under the Patriot Act the government can conduct "sneak and peek" searches. Government agents can enter a residence or office, when one is away, search through our private things, seize property and not tell one till after it's all over.

The First Amendment does not allow the Gov't to monitor our reading habits but under the P act FBI agents can get your library records, a list of magazines you subscribe to, web sites you visit, and your medical records. All this may be done without you being told. Further, a librarian can be arrested for telling you about the inquiry. That's enough for now. Perhaps, more later.

We are dealing here with serious breeches of our civil rights. What bothers me most, I think, is the way Congress pushed it through in short order with a minimum of debate.

This is an example of the kind of problem that can arise when President, Senate, House, and Court are dominated by one party. James Madison in the Federalist Papers talks about the problem." The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive and judiciary in the same hands is the very definition of tyranny."

JUSTIN, I posted about the Patriot Act in my Post #114. People were so busy responding to MOUNTAIN ROSE that I guess no one noticed. I included links to two site about the Patriot Act.

Mal

Mal: I should have known you would have a whack at the Patriot Act. There was so much of the Mountain, it obscured other comments.

JUSTIN, you're up late, and I'm up very, very early. Have you seen MOUNTAIN ROSE'S beautiful artwork in the current issue of Sonata? She's a very talented artist.

Goodnight, JUSTIN. Go to bed! Since I'm up, I might as well start my day. I have two magazines to get ready to go on the web, and I have to prepare my Activist "Letter from the Editor" for the March-April issue of Sonata, plus I'm writing a mystery novel about a young woman age 18, whose parents deserted her when she was 16. Maybe I can get some activist stuff in that, too.

Mal

Mountain Rose, you gave me (I speak for myself) much food for thought. I would like to call your attention to your comment:- "One of the first things to do before activism comes into any sort of play is to get all the facts."Having said that, I see you as breaking your own excellent advice. You tend to generalize. Let me give specifics.
"The modern liberal often wants to give the shop away to any needy person who comes in. The modern conservative tries to get rich."You have painted with a broad brush, the very thing, I believe, we need to stay away from. That is the type of thing that causes the very polarization that seems to bother you.
Another example of generalizing:-"allowing lumber companies to keep the forests clean by allowing judicious cutting."You seem to assume that the lumber companies are "judicious." Where, in your experience, have you seen lumber companies act in a judicious manner without environmentalists looking over their shoulder?
You state that it is not so that the spotted owl is endangered. But you don't follow that strong statement with anything to back it up.
You state that the advertising of the Sierra Club is "false" but you don't back that up either. I was then amazed to find that your very next paragraph said:-"One of the first things to do before activism comes into any sort of play is to get all the facts." Well?
You chastise the "news media that thrives on sensationalism." Again, generalization. Which news media? National Public Radio? C-Span? Los Angeles Times? Specifics are needed after jumping on them in that fashion.
You speak of the "propanganda we learned in school."I assume you are using that word in its negative sense because to be overly technical, all information is propaganda. Where are some examples? What topics? What schools? I don't hear any specifics.
You state that "we who are retired have the time to make waves but that people who are busy working, raising a family, trying to keep their heads above water, don't have the sort of time or even the intellect to be able to do that."Now that's a really BIG generalization! Did you read in detail the chapter about Kucinich? Did you read about the kind of life he led and, in many ways, is still living? Just where do you see that he doesn't have the "intellect?" And obviously he is making the time. I see all around me in my community people who are struggling to make ends meet and yet also "find the time" to help others either individually or in an organized way. I call that Activism.
You say that "you prefer to help someone in need unobtrusively and without fanfare" and "I guess you could call me conservative." I miss that point completely. So-called "liberals" don't do the same thing?
As I said, Mountain Rose, you gave me much food for thought. I'm pleased to see you posting here and am looking forward to more of your points of view.

Robby

Robby, you said, And welcome, Mary P! And glad to see you here, Ginny, although I didn't hear you make any comments related to the discussion. Were you intimitated?

No Robby, hahaha I don't see anything intimidating here, just a great bunch of people, I just wanted to welcome MaryP, but since your topic IS activism, I think your readers might want to know of another place, in addition to this one, on SeniorNet where, we hope, they can make a difference as Carolyn said here, in their armchairs, and that's the Prison Education Initiative just getting off the ground with some absolutely super speakers and representatives and connections coming up, it's being sent out as a Resource in the entire Social Sciences systems in Universitites and among Prison Education Coordinators, I invite each of you to come by there and stick around, it's going to be a long slow process but we do think we can make a difference!

Hope to welcome you there!

ginny

I am in the US and amazed at the number of posts already on this book. Robby, you choose well.

Since I have not had a chance to catch up and will not until I get home, I only want to say that I read the chapter on Tom Hayden and found it wonderful. Must reading for all Senior Netters. I gained a perspective that I did not have before and a resolve to try and DO something about environmental protection in Cayman.

By the way is there a schedule for reading this book? Perhaps I missed it as I have not read all the posts.

I have been trying to see what these men and women have in common and noted that many grew up in the Catholic Church. Is that significant? I was also struck by the difference in outlook of the two military men.

I have to confess I have not given the Patriot Act a through reading but something happened the last time I was at my doctors three months ago. I was given a paper to fill out, different than any before.

It mentioned I had the right for my medical records to be private. It was felt that it was alright to allow doctors read it if they were going to treat me and needed the information. There were a few statements after that one...Who did I wish to allow to read my medical records other than the aforementioned ones. The second statement asked who wasnt allowed to read them. In the first I named my children. In the second NONE EXCEPT THOSE NAMED ABOVE. I thought that was odd but now I am wondering about the whole thing.

Someone in here said the PAtriot Act permitted the government to access my medical records...since I wonder if that is true I will have to read it and see. anna

posts that I give "monologues" I tried to keep them as short as possible, which is why I gave OPINIONS and not facts, and didn't follow them up with anything. As far as I'm concerned, if I gave FACTS it would never end because situations are complicated. Most any situation takes a book or more, not just pleasant conversation.

So, since we are all adults, what I'm saying is before anyone gets interested in activism and makes more of a mess than we already have, it's best to obtain all the FACTS. Any situation has more than one side, and often even more than two sides. I'm not here to inspire anyone for any particular cause, as we all have our own causes and can obtain our own facts.

If you are interested in the Quincy Library Group, for instance, all you have to do is a search on the net. Same for what the Sierra Club thinks about it. If that's not your cause, well then skip it. I'm certainly NOT going to burden anyone here with my particular causes.

you mentioned that you wanted us to sort of converse the way your family did. So I'd just like to ask, when your family was conversing, did they give facts? Or did they give opinions? Did they back up their words with the newspaper or encyclopedias while you sat around the table and argued? Just curious what it is you expect. It's your forum and certainly you have a right to run it any way you wish. I'd just like to know what it is you actually want besides "polite" talk.

And as far as dominating the conversation, I'm not sure I understand that either, since everyone here has a keyboard and a "post" button to use any time they wish. I mean, do people have opinions or passions or don't they? And if they do, why do they allow me to "dominate" the conversation without jumping in and having their say also? It's not like I can stop them, or would even want to. My point was that by jumping into a cause we often make things worse if we don't have all the facts regarding that cause, and that's what I used my particular examples for, not to convert anyone to my causes.

I happen to like passion for causes and passion about life in general, and LOTS of talk about the how and the why and the goals of causes, and have it all on the table to be clearly seen. But since we are not talking about a particular cause here and just speaking generally, I also feel I can speak generally without bringing the encycopedia out. If I'm wrong, do explain it to me please.

If I make a statement here or in any other type of discussion and do not have facts behind what I say, I expect to be challenged. This is why I mention a source which backs up my claim and link to it if I can.

Though I agree with some of MOUNTAIN ROSE's views, I think generalities can be dangerous. Many is the rumor that's started because of one.

In a small restaurant in Wasington, DC years ago, the waiter was all upset when he came to my husband's and my table. He told us President Harry Truman had been shot. My husband said, "Where did you hear that?" The waiter said somebody had told him when he was walking to work. In answer to my husband's question about who told that somebody, the waiter said, "Well, so and so told me."

The fact of the matter was that this was all over Washington, and apparently had been started by someone's musing about what would happen if the president ever was shot. It took time to calm people down, and it was only when it was stated on radio and TV that nothing of the sort had happened that people believed the President had not been shot.

As MOUNTAIN ROSE said, if we are to understand what's going on, we have to know facts. And we must be careful that we ourselves know them, too, and are prepared to tell them to anyone who asks, or even if no one does.

Mal

It is not where we are that is important, but the direction we are moving.

Hope has to do with moving.

Sometimes the direction is not as important as moving.

Movers and shakers are those who generate hope, critics and Monday morning quarterbacks are not.

"Critics are the people who come down from the hills after the battle is over and shoot the wounded." Neil Goldschmidt, Wall Street Journal, 1980

The Patriot Act may be read in it's entirety for those who may be interested on http://www.lifeandliberty.gov..... Also some good reading would be commonly held myths concerning the patriot act.

George:-There is no time schedule for reading the book. We just go chapter by chapter and we are now on the chapter about Kucinich. If you (or anyone else here) have not already read my first three postings, these will explain in detail. Somewhere down the line, we will get to the chapter on Tom Hayden.
To answer your question Mountain Rose, when my uncles were conversing around their table, some might give opinions and some might give facts. But if it did not appear that a comment was a fact, another uncle often challenged him. You like "passion for causes and passion about life in general." That's great! Again, speaking for myself, I will never be annoyed if anyone here is passionate about something.
Currently we are not talking about a particular cause and just speaking generally because we have just left Studs' Introduction where he spoke in general about causes. We have only just begun this discussion and I'm sure many specific causes will be addressed.

Robby

Anna:--It is possible that you are not talking about the Patriot Act but HIPPA which applies specifically to health privacy.

Robby

In the next chapter, Studs interviews Representative Dan Burton. He, also, was a person who grew up in "very meager surroundings" with a father who was a child abuser. You can read the rest of the chapter for yourself. Of particular interest to me was his comment that "women have a penchant for believing a man when he says he's never going to do it again."As result he doesn't believe that America should be a bully. "We shouldn't go around trying to be the world's policeman or bullying people."
Now that we have thousands of American troops in Iraq we have no choice but to support them but I was dead against our "saving" the Iraqi population by force. I don't believe that we had to use our police baton and hit Saddam over the head because Osama bin Laden had destroyed the Twin Towers. We do have diplomats and I don't believe they, along with the United Nations, were used to their fullest extent.

Robby

I completely agree with you, ROBBY. Why didn't we use our diplomats? Why did the administration go over the head of the UN?

I keep wondering how in heaven's name we're going to pay for all these splashy and costly ventures. There's a good article about the proposed budget in the New York Times today. You can see it by clicking HERE.

Mal

In his Personal Notes on Page xxvii, Studs says, "I walked picket lines. I signed petitions. I never met a picket line or a petition I didn't like."

Did you, or would you, ever walk a picket line? It takes strength to exhibit the courage of one's convictions.

To me Dennis Kucinich is an example of the old adage that it's still possible for anyone to get into public office and make a difference. Early on he wondered, "What the heck is this? No matter how hard they work, they can't get ahead." ( Page 16 ) Keeping that in mind, he decided to do something about it.

"I got elected to Congress on my fifth try in 1996." ( Page 16 ) If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. How many of us quit because we don't achieve our goals on the first or second try? Nothing was ever accomplished by sitting on our hands.

Mal

I have been on go slows Robby for better working conditions and pay. That means you don't do any extra and don't work like a madman or woman. I can't remember if I ever went on a picket line I certainly have not in the last thirty years. I was self employed for the last decade I was at full time work.

"I got elected to Congress on my fifth try in 1996."
Mal, you posted the above Dennis Kucinich quote. Do you suppose he is laying the ground work for future presidential primary elections? He did say that he got elected to Congress on his fifth try.

Bill H

I agree. I absolutely support our troops in Irag. However, I cannot understand where we feel we have the right to rush in and "save" a country when they have made it perfectly clear they want us to butt out and go home! The ARROGANCE of it is mind boggling just for starters........

You see, these countries still have "hope."

marge

Studs addresses what I think is the major problem about living in this century. But I am reading both his "My American Century" and "American Dreams:Lost and Found", and I'd like to give a quote that Studs used in one of the indroductions: "At the end of the most extraordinary period of transformation of human affairs, old landmarks have disappeared, new ones are not yet recognized as such, and intellectual navigation across the suddenly estranged landscapes of human society becomes unusually puzzling for everyone." (Eric Hobsbaw)

I have the feeling that's where most of us who think even a little are at. Puzzled. Confused. A bit fearful that all's out of control and that no one is telling it like it is. There are so many "causes" that come along, most of them very worthy; and yet we have a life to live, bills to pay, books to read, health matters to take care of, houses to clean, friends to be with, children or grandchildren to raise, and we all have 24 hours in a day. On top of that we have been lied to so much that we don't know whom to believe. Even causes that once were worthy often turn into lies just to keep the cause and egos going. I read somewhere that the average modern person takes in as much information in one day as a person in the middle ages took in in a lifetime. So how do we handle that?

Just last week, for instance, I bought a new blender. I was careful to pick one that said "Made in the USA" on it because I don't like supporting China in any way shape or form while they are still communistic. Today I used it. It's a piece of junk, leaked, didn't work right, etc. Now I have to take it back, and I'll probably end up bying one that's not made in the USA, and I'm sorry because we need the jobs HERE NOT THERE. Why are we making junk? At the same time, if I buy one that's made somewhere else, I may be supporting a country whose policies I don't particularly like, a country where they have slave labor, child labor, no unions, barely liveable wages---and what should have been a routine small household chore becomes an enormous burden of confusion and guilt. Just how do we handle that? Because there are dozens of these instances every single day.

I have a friend who has an apple/cherry farm in Washington. He has dozens of domestic laws hampering him---taxes, labor laws, immigration laws, what he can and cannot ask a prospective employee while at the same time having to uphold immigration laws, what he can and cannot spray and how and when, etc. etc. In order to make a profit he has to charge a certain amount for his apples and cherries and he can't compete with stuff that comes in from Mexico or So. America or elsewhere, places that have no such laws. So he's barely hanging on and slowly going broke. And here I sit---what can I do about that? I'd like to help. Where do I begin? I believe in the small family farm, but it seems that doesn't matter, because not only is the small family farm disappearing, but the land that we have is being bought by conglomerates that are international, people who don't live by our laws and don't have to. It worries me that our food supply and our soil is in the hands of stockholders in other countries. In an emergency, we can do without oil, but we can't do without food. So where does one begin? How is it to be solved when I don't even know if the tomato I pick up at the grocery store is from Mexico or not? And should I be in favor of allowing the domestic farmer use any pesticides he wishes, ignore labor and immigration laws, and turn away when he's using so much artificial fertilizer that it's ruining our top soil? Yet, if I don't, he can't compete with Mexico.

I think not only do politicians (on ALL sides) lie through their teeth, but corporations lie to us also. Kodak just moved its film production to China. Yet Fuji has a film production company right here and can make a profit while Kodak is telling us it can't make a profit here. Who is lying? And why? Is it waste? Is it golden parachutes for the top honchos? Is it greed?

And I think that's where people are today from what I've heard as I've listened. People are puzzled, confused, angry, fearful, overwhelmed. It seems so overwhelming because there's so much going on, so much hidden, so many lies.

Personally I buy whatever I need, keep my life as simple as I can, and I have pet causes that I learn about and follow and get involved in, and I leave the rest to others. My personal pet causes are the American Indian, Veterans benefits, food production, and Women in Art. No one can spread him/herself too thin. But alas, that doesn't mean the world is going to stop. It just keeps turning and getting more complex and more out of control, and so far I haven't seen any politician on the horizon who is worth a damn.

I'm in favor of it. I think it was the right thing to do. And again, my reasons are complex, but the main reason is that I know before WWII most Americans were against being involved in that war also. It wasn't until Pearl Harbor that things turned around. Am I sorry about Pearl Harbor? Yes, I'm sorry for the lives that were lost, for the horror people lived through who didn't want to be in a war; but I'm not sorry that it forced America to enter the war. What's odd is that I'm saying this with having been a little girl in Germany at the time. I was the enemy America fought.

Seems to me that I remember the words "We shall have peace in our time." which is always a pie-in-the-sky sentiment when you are dealing with a dictator. If America hadn't entered WWII we'd have one hell of a world to live in now.

Whether we like it or not, whether we want it or not, right now we are the powerhouse on this planet, and we are at war with terrorism. To attack Iraq was simply a strategic move to get at the underbelly of terrorism, and has nothing to do with "saving" anyone, or oil, or empire or private vendettas. It's like a game of chess; first you get rid of the pawns before you attack the queen. So far I think Mr. Bush has done everything right---except for the Patriot Act. Having lived under a dictatorship and having heard what it was like for my whole life from my family, so sorry, but I cannot shed a single tear for Hussein or his cohorts, and I am happy for the people of Iraq. They may mess it up, but at least now they do have the chance to learn about freedom and not having to fear for their lives or the lives of their families. JMHO

Mountain Rose says that Studs uses the following quote:-"At the end of the most extraordinary period of transformation of human affairs, old landmarks have disappeared, new ones are not yet recognized as such, and intellectual navigation across the suddenly estranged landscapes of human society becomes unusually puzzling for everyone." (Eric Hobsbaw)
To me, that quote is most applicable to the landmark decision made today by the Massachusetts Supreme Court as explained in the following ARTICLE in today's NY Times.
I hear it said time and time again that "historically" marriage is only between a man and a woman. In the history I have been reading over the past two years in Durant's "Our Oriental Heritage" and "The Life of Greece," I have not seen this to be so. In many many of those cultures men with men was accepted as easily as men with women.
Furthermore, I keep hearing it said that the sole purpose of marriage is the propagation of children. That may be said in certain religions but "historically" that has not always been so. It is important to keep in mind that while many couples "sanctify" their marriages in their church, that this is not necessary in order to get married. If a couple says vows before a clergyman without having obtained a license, they are not married. If they obtain a license and says their vows before the Justice of the Peace, they are married.
Marriage is whatever the State says it is and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts through its Supreme Court says it can be between two people of the same sex.

Robby

Mountain Rose: Your paragraph starting with "I have a friend" and ending with He can't compete with Mexico." Exactly my dear.

It's the same here. We used to have small grocery stores just around the corner. They were not so well stocked, had such low prices, the grocer was friendly, he knew his customers by name. Well we don't have them any more. Now we have Loblaws, Wal-Mart. Corner restaurants went bankrupt, McD's Harveys, Dunkin D. etc. etc. are sprouting all over the place. Those conglomerates killed small enterprises first with lower prices and glitzy decor till every little family business closed up. Is that good for the economy? No. not in the long run apparently because the profits don't benefit the locals, they benefit conglomerates where profits go toward buying off small firms, mergers, eventually we only will have large corporations who will dictate what we will eat, wear, see in cinemas, etc.

Soon, all the banks will have merged, and this the last straw, they will decide everything for us. Did you notice how much they charge you for handling your money?

"Kodak just moved its film production to China Cheap labor to me is exactly the same as slave labor. Even the computer I am using is 'foreign'. I heard once that a man called Dell for a problem and a voice answered with an accent that he recognized and he asked the lady: "Where are located now?" she answered "India". How about that. Do you think that if her wages were as high as here, they would bother to move the complaint departments to India? Of course not.

Eloïse

For those looking for facts, HERE is the official Opinion of the Court.

Robby

My first real life encounter with the recent privacy law was in my primary care physician's office. There hanging above the sign in roster was the following notice in large letters. "In accordance with the Privacy Law, sign the roster using your first name only." I complied. After leaving I hurried with my prescription to the pharmacy. A few feet from in front of the prescription counter I saw red lines painted on the floor. Another customer waiting to have her prescription filled was standing behind one of the red lines while another customer was being waited on. The pharmacist explained that in accordance with the Privacy Law customers must be several feet away from the customer receiving and paying for their prescriptions.
I wonder how many other things I will be told I must do under the privacy law. I HOPE not many

Bill H

I wonder how long it will take for Americans to get their heads out of the sand and open their eyes? We don't just live in a country on one continent, we live in a global community. What if all the countries who buy American goods decide to boycott them and not buy from the U.S. because we have a different governing system from theirs? What would that do to our economy, do you think?

Do you buy Bayer aspirin? Better boycott it. Bayer is a German company, not a USA one. Ever use a Bic lighter, or buy a Bic pen? Better stop that, too. The Bic company is French. This is just a sample of foreign-owned companies who have sold their products in the US for many, many years. Maybe one of your relatives works for one of them here. Kick those companies out, and see your relative lose his or her job.

What if Toyota and other car companies stopped having parts for their automobiles made in the United States? How many Americans would that put out of work?

How many companies does the United Kingdom own in the United States? Here's a sample of that, too. Companies owned by the United Kingdom in West Tennessee.

Well, let's close 'em all up. Let's get rid of foreign business here and call all of our companies back home away from foreign soil. But don't complain to me when your husband, your wife, your sons and daughters, their aunts and uncles and cousins are all out of work.

Mal

It's been a time of change in America since the 60's. Many things which were hidden and secret are coming to light. You next door neighbor doesn't have to hide his or her sexuality in the closet any more. Coming out isn't easy, as many people right here in SeniorNet will tell you, but it's possible now when it never was before.

What's the difference between America and other parts of the world? Why are same sex relationships accepted elsewhere and not here?

As ROBBY said, "I hear it said time and time again that 'historically' marriage is only between a man and a woman. In the history I have been reading over the past two years in Durant's 'Our Oriental Heritage' and 'The Life of Greece,' I have not seen this to be so. In many many of those cultures men with men was accepted as easily as men with women." The truth is that they still are in those cultures.

During the course of history did same sex relationships stop other people who wanted opposite sex marriage from getting married and having children? Not exactly. I see children being born every second, and there are more people on the earth than ever before..

So the Commonwealth of Massachusetts has made same sex marriage legal. So what? If two people love each other enough to want to be married, that's okay with me. Tell me something that's really a problem . . . . like in the two months since Saddam Hussein was captured, American soldiers are dying at a rate of more than one a day. Now, that really upsets me.

Mal

was a horrible event that happened on the borderline between Chicago and Evanston. It was not a "drive by"shooting. The boy was on a bike and someone had given him a gun and he used it.

The story got much play here in Chicago because of the wonderful priest who visited the young by in prison, visited the parents, and visited the parents of the murdered boy.

The story of the corrossing letters is true. The church that was St.Mary's is now Pope John23 and has a very mixed population of worshipers. One night there was a small meeting in a classroom and both sets of parents came, dealing with their grief, but with understanding and compassion for the other family.And it was the priest who made it all possible.The priest in Studs' story.

A church that encourages their worsipers to have a social conscience is to be revered in these times. I am not Catholic, but across the street is St. Gertrude's which runs a program of volunteers who drive seniors to appointments, call just to say hello and check on your well being, bring gifts at holiday time. Their goal is to keep seniors in their own homes as long as possible. This program is a model which all of Chicago plans to follow. It's called "Heart to Heart".

Someone asked if anyone had ever marched for a cause. I have and took my then seven year old with me. We were fighting for open housing and integrated schools. We broke down racial barriers and held shoutig, hand waving meetings. I soon learned about"BT" which is Black time. I learned so much from 1969 on about respect, fellowship and activism.I will never forget.

Studs' book in in the other room

Good on you Nana! I can just see you with a placard!

Carolyn

The Massachusetts Supreme Court makes me proud to be an American. Equal Rights for all is finally becoming a reality in some States. The present Federal Administration does not seem to believe in the concept. Mr. Bush is, in fact, preparing a constitutional amendment to do away with equal rights for all. Let us Hope that this narrow minded President is replaced by some one who understands the meaning of "equal rights."

I am a little upset by the comment "I will not buy from China because it is a Communist country". There are enormous differences between the Communism practiced by Stalin and others in Russia, and that practiced in the Far East in China and Vietnam. I was in China around 1985 and was struck by the industriousness and intelligence of its people. Admitedly it was a small sampling. However, I felt that an enlightened Communist government could probably bring China into the modern world far more rapidly than a so called democracy and it seemed to me that Communism was preferable to Facism. What seems to be happening in China today is a slowly evolving economic system that is a mixture of communism and capitalism. We have friends who just returned from Vietnam and they report the same kind of evolving society (which by the way they found to be wonderful).

People in the US have to face the painful fact that most of the world is populated by people who are underpaid according to our standards and who can produce products more cheaply than we can. As the wealthier countries buy from these countries, the people of both countries are helped. HIgher wages in the poor country and cheaper goods in the wealthy country. Unfortunately this creates a huge trade imbalance for the United States and frankly I do not know enough about economics to understand if this is a "real" problem or if this is the nature of trade at this time that we have to accept.

Far more disturbing to me is the budget proposed by our government which I believe will saddle future citizens with enormous bills that must be paid. This imbalance in our own economy is going to do far worse damage to the United States (IMO) than the trade imbalance. I want to get the new book by Paul O'Neill, former Secretary of the Treasury, as it speaks to this issue. There was an article in yesterday's NYTimes by David M. Walker titled "The Debt No one Wants to Talk About". Mr. Walker is Comptroller General of the US so his views are probably valid. I am not going to quote from the article but suffice it to say, it is very scary reading.

What kind of country are we leaving for our grandchildren???

In the U.S. we like to brag that we are a land of law, not people -- tht the U.S. Constitution is the law of the land and that each state constitution is the law of that particular piece of land. The topic of same-sex marriage is an emotional one but the Massachusetts Supreme Court had no choice. They were bound to decide on what they deemed unconstitutional. And this they did in that very detailed Opinion to which I gave a link.
The people of that state have a right, of course, to change the law but our founders very wisely forced us to take a significant amount of time and think it through before we changed the law. The Court's decision takes effect in May. If the Massachusetts citizens want to change their constitution, I believe this will take three years.
It is also my understanding that under the "full faithand credit" clause of the U.S. Constitution, all the other states are required to respect the laws of that one state. These same-sex couples will therefore be accepted (not willingly perhaps!) as married.

Robby

Mal: "What would that do to our economy, do you think?

I am thinking of the global corporate economy too.

"These details fit the pattern of what's been happening as work in general is being reorganized around the demands of the global corporate economy. The demands are for faster turnover, higher productivity, lower costs and 24-hour accessibility in the name of a specious abstraction called global competitiveness." taken from this LINK. Global corporations are taking in profits in BILLIONS and TRILLIONS with their mergers and downsizing tactics and it is a direct cause of extreme poverty in some countries.

It is easy enough to see on television the plight of 'Have-Not' countries. We live in North America and our standards of living is one of the highest in the world while others are slipping lower and lower. It is downright unjust and it causes resentment and envy. Why do you think that there is so much terrorism? We can blame it on the economy.

Eloïse

The Massachusetts Court ruling caused an UPROAR IN THE MASSACHUSETTS LEGISLATURE. I have heard no disagreement here and wonder if "silence is consent."

Robby

Officials, legislators ponder their next move. Boston Globe 2/5/04

Separate is seldom equal. Boston Globe 2/5/04

Legislator feels heat on gay marriages. Boston Globe 2/5/04

Regarding the same sex marriage statutes......I think this gender issue and rights of gay people is currently the big civil rights issue of our time.... This not only relates to marriage but to clergy etc.......As Robby says....very emotional issue... Very painful issue for some.....There is no doubt in MY mind that it is the right thing to do.....I would not call anyone who doesn't agree with me narrow minded however..... Long held and honestly held views are difficult to change and as we know take a long, long, time......people do not necessarily like change....especially when it smacks right up against long held views and customs.......education, education, and more education......with a huge dose of tolerance.........

Robby one reason I havent addressed the question of "Marriage" VS "Civil Unions" is because I really dont know how I feel. On several subjects lately I have found myself sitting on the fence, so much so I am getting a rather sore backside!

In my lifetime when either by law or by "doing" I find a not always subtle change in how things change for the me and for my family and the future.

I was not raised in a puritanical household since my parents ignored religeon to marry by a JP ..my father being Catholic and my mother being Protestant. At one time my mother was willing to be married in the Priest Parlor to allow my father to recieve communion, but declined when she also refused to promise to raise their 3 youngest (me and my 2 younger brothers) Catholic. The three older brothers were raised as eventually all of us were raised to decide for ourselves which faith we would accept.

As a Christian I try to stay faithful to my beliefs as expressed in the Bible. A lot of those beliefs have been tested and in some I have changed. Regarding divorce is one example and I wont go into all the details that caused me to change my mind and still keep my faith.

Since three of my 4 children are mine by adoption and thus by law who have all the rights as my one child whom I gave birth to I can see there would be a difference it they were to be denied the same inheritance rights , right of name etc...because they werent really mine. That may seem a stretch here concerning same sex marriage but in my mind that is what I see it..where those who care about each other and are willing and want to be considered a "family" with all the rights of that "family" and want the law to recognize them to be so.

I worry there may be issues in the future concerning this that would affect my children and grand children..I also have several people over the years that have become relatives of my heart. One is a young woman I also consider my granddaughter ..who I have treated the same as my "real" grandchildren...none of who are blood relatives...since I know it is not the law nor being a blood relative that makes you "familY"

Sorry I shouldnt have started this when I need to leave for an appointment concerning an auto accident that occured yesterday...

will return and see what others are saying and perhaps say more..anna

Society,

I have lived in countries where Nudity is shown in T.V. commercials and Homosexuality is condoned if not completely accepted. Hasn't changed these countries or the people who live in them. So I am wondering what people are upset about here in the U.S. over these things. They really don't seem important to me. But then, I have lived in more tolerant societies.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom.....that is just the problem...these issues ARE very important to the people in this country...Annafairs post I thought was very thoughtful....I certainly do not consider her to be narrow minded or intolerant.....Most of us in this country have not been as widely travled as you have and may not see things through your "worldview"......I am also not so sure I am anxious to be viewing nudity, course language etc. on tv....I did not see the half time business during the football game as I tend to do other things during that time.... I don't watch much tv anymore mainly football and basketball which I adore.... did seem a little inappropriate for that time slot....I have digressed ........

I think that the same-sex marriage/civil union issue will end up where most of our very controversial issues do..the U.S. Supreme Court.

There seems to me, as a layperson with no legal background, an obvious "clash" between the Defense of Marriage bill signed in 1996 by Pres. Clinton and the states who have passed no same-sex marriage laws and now this ruling in MA and the "full faith and credit" that Robby mentioned.

I found a bit about this from several years ago when Vermont was entering this area of controversy:

Until 1995, when Utah became the first state to expressly prohibit same-sex marriages, the law in most states defined marriage to be between a man and a woman. Five years later, 33 states have adopted laws that specifically prohibit same-sex marriages, limiting such unions to couples of the opposite sex. In 1996 President Bill Clinton signed the "Defense of Marriage Act" that prohibits same-sex marriages. This law forbids couples from receiving federal marriage benefits and allows states to ignore same-sex marriages that may be sanctioned by other states.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/05/25/same.sex.marriages/

However,

No state law requires Connecticut to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states. The 1991 gay rights legislation extending antidiscrimination protections to gay men and lesbians specifies that it does not require the state to authorize or recognize the right of marriage between persons of the same sex (CGS §46a-81r(5)). It is unclear how the courts will interpret either the U.S. Constitution's Full Faith and Credit Clause or the DOMA if one or more states extend their civil marriage laws to same-sex couples and other states refuse to recognize their validity.

http://www.cga.state.ct.us/2000/rpt/olr/htm/2000-R-0062.htm

It would appear to me that the U.S. Supreme Court will have to decide if the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the DOMAs will be the law on this issue.

jane

Jane....thanks for that good information....looks as though you may be right about the Supreme Court having to ultimately decide.

We have legislation here where gay couples have all the legal rights of a married couple without the marriage ceremony. The Govt although very liberal stopped short of allowing marriage ceremonies. I agree with them. Why could you not have had this sort of legislation?

Carolyn

KiwiLady: As I understand it, that's what's called "civil unions" here and what our state of Vermont allowed. This whole issue, however, of what some call "alternative lifestyles" and other terms...and the concept of allowing partners to have legal rights the same as a "traditional"..ie, man-woman marriage is very controversial here. Some seem to believe that these "lifestyles"...ie, being a gay man or lesbian woman is a choice that these people make. Others believe it is a genetic condition and that the people have no "choice." And, I suppose there are some who fall in another category of saying it may be a genetic thing, but they choose to act on their feelings, etc. And, there're probably several other "positions" people have as well.

It seems to me to be one of those issues, much like abortion, where there is much shouting/violence/quoting of Bible verses, etc. to try to convince others of a certain point of view. I don't know how effective that sort of thing is with others.

I wonder if anyone here has been convinced to change his/her mind on a controversial issue like abortion [or gay rights, etc.] because of the demonstrations/picketing/bombing of abortion clinics, etc?

What is effective in getting you to change your mind?

jane

No change of mind here. I heartily agree with Vermont's decision. I think we all know what the SCOTUS will do, given their record of the past few years.

I am most curious to know about the "Defence of Marriage Act" that Clinton signed. I would like to know who sponsored the bill, and who voted for it. I would also like to see the wording of that bill.

What exactly is "Defense of Marriage"? Does it make divorce illegal? How many of those "moral" congressmen who brought this bill to the congress have defended their marriages? Or, as I assume, does this bill deal only with same-sex relationships? Like Studs, I could get up on a soap-box and speak to the multitudes on this subject.

If we are truly "defending marriage" then we should not allow divorces. Many children are psychologically wounded for life after their parents divorce.But this is not part of the equation, is it?

And there is $1.5 billion set aside for this nonsense which could be used for far more significant programs!

No I have never been persauded by marching, picketing etc to change my mind. If I was against it the above mentioned only solidified my belief and feelings. Whenever I see people doing the above I wonder how many in that group REALLY believe it what they are saying. I think of the rest of the people in the community who find thier right to go to work, shop, pick up children at school, meet their obiligations while these people are blocking passageway ..not to mention the fact that a large portion of the police departments are there trying to keep order instead of being available for emergencies, crime etc...and emergency vehicles are often delayed reaching someone..NOW I have read and seen pictures of that happening, so unless the pictures lie I am telling a truth. I have also read news accounts of the amount of police needed to monitor these protests.

You set up a booth in a proper place and ask me to sign a petition I agree on and I wiil do it, you come to my house and do the same, ask me to work for a candidate that I agree with and I will do it but I wont do it if it interferes with someone else right even if I may agree with the you.

The term marriage has a special meaning. To me it means I am willing to bind myself to another person, have the right to love that person without shame ( BY THE WAY NOT IN PUBLIC) To be recognized as a couple with all the rights given to me by the very act of marrying. To have the law recognize those rights, to have a doctor or hospital or any agency recognize my right to determine health care and if necessary how death should come and in what manner the one I love is buried. To be allowed to claim inheritance rights for both myself and any children of that union...regardless of how they become part of that union. To claim any deductions on my income tax when they are allowed It means I can do all these things and no one says I cant ...from what you have posted here regarding Vermont that would seem to say what a Civil Union allows. DOES it really make a difference if it called a civil union or marriage..and that is where I am .....fence sitting anna

Anna...nothing wrong with being on the fence! Maybe it will allow you to see both sides a little better....lol......anyway...the only way I have changed my mind about anything is by studying the issue, both sides, some thinking about it.....never any signs or protests or laying in the street has persuaded me.....actually I think sometimes protesters who are violent or interfere with other people's lives hurt their movement. Plese note I have nothing against peaceful demonstrations........

I suppose there are many who would like to say this but are hesitant of offending others. However, I will say how I feel. I find the ruling upholding same sex marriage by the high court of Massachusetts appalling and it contributes to the degradation of our nation. There is no doubt in MY mind that it was NOT the right thing to do. I would wonder about the feelings of the adopted children--if adoption is allowed--of these marriages when the see the same sex partners share the same bed. I would not call anyone who disagrees with me narrow minded. No. However, I do feel they are losing sight of the values that made our nation the greatest in the world. The half time show of Super Bowel 38 this past Sunday gave us a "showing" of the degradation that is setting in.
I applaud the 38 states that have laws defining marriage as a heterosexual institution, and the 16 states that are considering constitutional amendments that would ban same-sex marriages. I also applaud the morals of past generations that reach back to the founding fathers of this land of ours. Does the high court of Massachusetts believe everyone else is out of step but them?
I apologize if I have injured the feelings of anyone in this fourum. It was neither my intent or desire to be abrasive to anyone individual.
I do HOPE that we can soon begin discussing some of the interviews in the book.

Bill H

I do not feel it makes much difference whether the union between individuals of the same sex is called marriage or civil union. It does appear that the emphasis is on sex, sexual aspects, and -- marriage/cohabitation/civil unions -- involve more than sex. Would those who object to non-blood related individuals of the same sex adopting or raising a child object to two sisters, brothers, or cousins of the same sex raising a nephew, niece -- or an adopted child? ---and that can take us off on a quite different tangent -- i.e., then should those persons enjoy the same tax benefits, etc., as a married couple?

I agree with the last comment by Bill H. It seems to me that we've moved a considerable distance from discussing the interviews in Studs' book. And while Robby said in his first posting that this is not a political discussion, he also said that no subject is too large or to small for discussion.

On the first page of comments by Clancy Sigal he says (among other things) that, "The Depression was just sort of a natural condition for us; it was one endless summer. Nothing was expected of us. Our teachers didn't think we would achieve anything..." (Bold print mine.)

Well, the Depression was accepted/endured/survived by my family but the schools in the area sure offered the hope to learn in order to have a better life. And my parents never lost hope that my brother and I would have a more fruitful life than they had. A hope that is shared by my wife and I for our children.

Bill H there is much in what you wrote is what I feel and yet I can see another side..so will keep mulling it over in my mind...BUT I agree with the last statement.

And I agree with Aviaqua completely ..I remember the depression, we were some of the lucky ones..my father worked during that time ..and we helped family members survive, and as far as being in school ...I had the best possible education and ALL of my teachers encouraged us to think ahead,,to realize how importand education was and to yearn and hope and plan for a future.

At our school we had clothing and food drives for those whose had no family income. While my mother made my clothes I was always proud and thankful to wear someone else;s clothes and one of my best friends who had to wear hand me downs because they had to struggle just to feed the family never felt out of place since so many wore them ...We were a waste not, want not family and I am still that way today...Every adult I knew at that time encouraged me to become more than just a woman, a wife and mother but an educated woman, wife and mother. To me it was the most caring, supportive time in my life...when neighbors shared and helped out everyone..when a death in the neighborhood was acknowledge with food gifts, and a collection of small coins to buy an arrangement for the funeral ...I can still see those sheets of paper with someones name on it and behind it a dime or a nickel ...nowadays your next door neighbor can die and unless you see it in the paper you never know it.

And most of us who grew up in that time also had hope that not only we would do well some day but so would our children and grandchildren. We as a family gave up a lot to see our children would have a good education. Keeping a car for 18 years to pay for college etc. and I think we learned that during those depression years...HOPE ...anna

I can remember one young man who asked in the 7th grade why he needed an education..since he was going to be farmer and a mule didnt care how he spoke English...I wish I could remember what Miss Hefton replied..but I remember it was a well thought out inspirational answer. She was a spinster lady but you couldnt ask for a better person to teach and guide young people. I not only never forgot her but kept in touch with her until her death when she was 90.

What happens to the voice of the people if the Supreme Court makes this decision? Will it be ignored and disregarded as it was in the last presidential election? Are we destined to allow our major decisions to be made by a couple of biased women and a handful of biased men?

I read an article about two gay men recently. They are successful businessmen who have been together for years. They have adopted four "rainbow" children from underprivileged environments and are raising them together, nurturing them, educating them and loving them.

They are not alone. There are many gay couples and lesbian couples who have done this. Would you rather have these children raised legitimately by two same sex people who are legally joined in marriage, or would you rather have them grow up illegitimate on the streets?

I think the brouhaha about Janet Jackson is ridiculous. She was wearing more clothes than some of the women I saw at the Golden Globe awards and others on TV movies and shows.

What's wrong with nudity? Have you never seen ancient Greek and Roman statues? Have you never seen the statue of "David" by Michelangelo? Haven't you see pictures of naked people in museums? Did you read seduction and sex into these? Or are some of us so Victorian that we avert our eyes and look away when we encounter this kind of thing? Is the naked human body God's worst mistake?

There are whole buildings in India, the walls of which are covered by bas reliefs of men and women committing the terrible act of showing love for each other by having sex. Grecian urns and amphora show pictures of men having sex. Europeans do not regard nudity and the sex act in the same narrow-minded way that we do.

What is it about Americans anyway? Are we so Puritanical? It's a wonder we don't start burning women at the stake again and make them wear a scarlet A for adultery.

Why is it bad and hurtful for children to see the human body? Are we transferring some sort of idea to children that the human body and sex are somehow dirty and poison to the mind? What kind of attitudes do we instill in children by our intensely negative reactions? What kinds of problems do we create by propagating an unnatural aversion to what is natural?

Thousands of years ago Greeks and Romans and other cultures accepted single sex relationships without a second thought. Did that stopped opposite sex couples from being married or having children? Do single sex partnerships stop them now? Not exactly. The population of the world is greater than it ever was before. Homosexuality and single sex love and partnerships have been part of life since the world began. Why is it so impossible for Americans to accept that fact? Live and let live, I say. Give these people the same rights everyone else has. Aren't equal treatment and rights for all Americans a major part of this democracy?

Or is it equal rights for only a few?

Mal

I personally thought the half time show of the Super Bowl was a national disgrace. Coming off the pre game show, Willie Nelson, Aerosmith and a very inspiring rendition of You Raise Me Up by Josh Goban, which had the entire audience singing, and which conveyed a tribute to the Astronauts, we were treated to obscene hip hop, P. Diddy, some other crotch grabbing rapper, a punk rocker who wore the American flag as a fashion statement while he sang about whores and cocaine thus infuriating the military, and replusing the rest of us, and last but not least, Michael Jackson's clone, deliberately dressed in his metallic get up, the suggestion of beaten down woman with hair straggling over eyes, the ripping away of the bustier and her pitiful...disgusting. Absolutely disgusting for what it acted out and implied. I think Americans deserve better than that, AND those degrading crude commercials. There's nothing wrong with Americans or America. There's something wrong with MTV and hip hop and the Jackson family.

ginny

Granted that what Jackson and Timberlake did was in bad taste, I think there are much more important issues in this country to be concerned about, like, as I said yesterday, the fact that American soldiers have been dying at a rate of more than one a day since Saddam Hussein was captured because of this quest for weapons of mass destruction that don't appear to exist.

Isn't it interesting that Republican congressman Dan Burton said similar things to what Democrat Dennis Kucinich said about never quitting when you're fighting for a goal you think is right and not tolerating bullies? Burton says:

"War is just bad and we should not go to war unless it's absolutely necessary:

And:

" I think of myself as a person who wants to do the right thing. I don't believe we should be the bullies. You have various organizations around the world that rule in a different way than we do, and you can't make the whole world over in our image. We can try to teach them our values and our system, but we shouldn't go aroun trying to be the world's policemen or bullying people."

I think I could get to like this guy.

Mal

Seems like they were only appealing to the lowest common denominator when they(MTV and the network) think these shows are acceptable. I don't care about the nudity but I do hate the hip, hop, the words--if you can understand them--which are making heroes of debased people.

We have all seen art nudity, most of us know that nudity and sex are shown on the European screens, but its the inference that we all must like it or be called puritanical that is wrong! What is it that some people think that, by accepting this type of music and behavior and way of dressing, they are better people?

Aviaqua, thank you for the Sigal quote "…so they didn't give us any homework."
I was born the same year as Clancy Sigal--1926--and came through the worst of the Depression. Now I don't know what city or school districts Mr. Sigal had in mind, but I can tell you that the teachers of the school districts in Pittsburgh cared, at least the teachers in the school I attended did . Homework was plentiful and attention in the classroom was enforced. I can recall the sixth-grade geography teacher throwing a piece of chalk and hitting me in the back of the head because I had turned around and was talking to the student in the desk behind me:o)
We had parent teacher meetings three times a year, or if the student was not doing well, the student's teacher would call the parents in order to find out what they the parents could do to help their child.

Bill H

You are absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with nudity. It is just the human body without clothes.

However. The degradation and the debasing presentation thereof as that shown at superbowl half time and MTV certainly has nothing to do with the Art world or anything else I can think of. If there WAS a redeeming factor? I missed it. Those who shout, "hey, it was just entertainment!" Guess what? I missed that too. I for one was not entertained either.

A lot of what you all have been saying has made a great deal of sense to me in all the issues. But one, with all the attention given to Janet Jackson performance ending - What better way to get a lot of free publicity!

Camper, CBS bought that halftime show because those in charge thought it would attract people who would buy what was advertised in their commercials. The idea backfired, and you can be sure they won't do it again and MTV will change their tune.

Read my Post #182. I think there are much more important issues with which to concern ourselves right now than the exposure of one 38 year old woman's star-studded breast.

You bet it's free publicity, MOXIE! Have you seen some of the cartoons about Janet Jackson that have been appearing in national newspapers? Why isn't there a big fuss about Justin Timberlake? Is he exempt from all this criticism because he's a man?

Mal

I just read that the Janet Jackson incident generated more Internet traffic than the 11th. of September 2001. I think this emphasizes the point Mal was making.

Jan

I couldn't get into this site a minute ago. I guess because Moxiect was posting. On same sex marraiges, my criteria for whether something is wrong is whether someone gets hurt, and I don't see who is hurt here.

I didn't see the Superbowl, partly because I was discusted by the one last year. The commercials and half-time were bad taste and bad music. But I feel that way about almost all commercial TV, and almost never watch it. That doesn't answer the question of what should be shown. I don't think nudity and overt sexual moves should be shown (at least not now) because they are against the mores of most of us. I don't see that people are being hurt by not seeing them. If these norms change (as they probably will) then that will change with it. But I also agree in a society with so many important issues, this is not one of them. My son points out that in England and Europe, where the rape rate is a lot lower than in the US, nudity is accepted on TV and on beaches.

Good on, Bill H. I don't know which school or district he was in either. Later, he says only, "When you were a thirteen-year old kid in Chicago..."

Thinking about it, it must be his perception. I came along three years later than you all and I do not think that many teacher of our generation felt we could not or would not achieve much.

Aviaqua, I do believe you and I are the only ones discussing the book.
Robby, Some of us bought the book! Lead on and we will follow.

Bill H

I like to think I am discussing the book as well ' But since nudity is being defended I would like to say something about that as well. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH NUDITY...what I do have a problem when it used in a manner which debases both men and women. I have lived in Europe and traveled extensively there visiting the museums and great art works ..the human body is a beautiful thing...but that is not what we are seeing. We are seeing lewd acts not loving ones. From the time I was a child I believed in a caring and loving relationship between men and women..it was demonstrated by all the adults I knew and thankfully in the man I married. There is no shame in being nude in the right place but for heavens sake lets be honest, what we are seeing is not a showing of a beautful nude but one that was a travesty of love ..anyone can have sex but it takes caring, intelligent people who treat each other honorably and fairly , who love and cherish each other..who do not think of equate sex with love, who do not feel it is a spectator sport but a private , intimate act of love. When that happens you reach a special place where two people can share the highest level of intimacy because you not only care about how you feel but how the other person feels.

All of the things we see with the type of seductive and lewd acts is not love and it certainly isnt good sex. It is exploitive , debases and ridicules love and certainly sends the wrong message to young people who begin to beleive that what they are seeing is love..and are fooled into thinking if they behave likewise they will find love.

If you have to watch that kind of behavior to turn yourself on you are not very creative or imaginative and you are cheating yourself and your partner.

anna

I am one of the babies in SN so I did not experience the great Depression. My mother was a very small child during the depression and I learnt about it from my grandfather.

He was lucky - he worked for the railway and had a railway house with a few acres where he could grow food and have cows and a pig. They were on short pay however. He said he worked alongside doctors and dentists who were put on relief work. Their hands bled, they were not used to manual labour. My mother and my Uncle were able to continue going to school and my grandparents could scrape up doctors fees if there was serious illness. My grandmother made clothes for the kids out of cut up adult clothing. She unpicked and reknitted yarn from old sweaters. She made afghans and made quilts out of old scraps of material cut up from worn out dresses and backed them with sacking. I actually had one of these quilts on my bed as a child. They used old soft flour sacks to make underclothing. My mother was sent to hairdressing college ( heaven knows where they got the money) and my Uncle was able to go to high school. My mother never went to high school. She was sent down to the city to live with her paternal grandparents and went to hairdressing college at age 13. By the time she was 14 and a half she was working full time in a salon. None of the children in the district ever expected to attend University if they finished high school that was a miracle. Most kids left school at 13. It is amazing but one of these children ended up as one of our most respected Prime Ministers. He was self educated.

Expectations of the children of the Depression were simple. A job was all they craved. It did not matter what job and how much they were paid.

Carolyn

I still have the quilts my mother and my aunts made. They would use even the tiniest scraps and cut them out by hand , stitch them by hand and quilt my hand. My mothers were so finely stitched you would think they were done by a machine. I saved the prettiest ones and now my daughters and granddaughter have them as bed spreads and treasure them for what they are...love from their grandmother and great grandmother.

Feed came in muslin sacks that were printed and all of my aunts who were farm wives made thier dresses from those sacks. Some were made by hand since they didnt all have a machine. It was really something if you had a real treadle machine ..I loved my mothers treadle machine ..and you could sew by oil lamp if you needed..no electricity ,...I learned to sew on mothers and for a wedding gift and older brother gave me enough money to buy a good used electric. But the treadle would sing to you as you sewed and even if you were just playing at sewing it was a pleasent way to spend time..to this day sewing is a peaceful pursuit for me.

And I miss those quiet days, I often feel useless in my grandchildrens lives..there is nothing I can give them they dont already have..each family could open a toy store and there closets full of clothes. I recall when I was a teen ager all of my clothes except undergarments and my winter coat fit into the hanging area of a chifforobe..which I think was perhaps 20 inches across and deep enough for the hangar to fit in and the door closed. And for all of us Hope never died ..it was hope that carried us through..anna

I have just come home from work and -- lo and behold -- 25 posts! Terrific!! And Bill H, regarding "getting on with the book," we are doing just that. Note, for example, how Mal in a previous posting mentioned Burton and Kucinich in relation to the subjects you people have been discussing.
Do not expect this forum to be the same as most of the book discussion groups in which you have participated. We are not discussing Kucinich or Burton or any of the other people profiled in Studs' book. We are discussing their wish to stand up for what was important to them -- their approaches to life -- their willingness to express their strong beliefs. And that is EXACTLY what you folks have been doing. We HAVE been discussing these topics in the same manner that the people in Studs' book would be doing.
And you have been pounding the table for your opinions. If anything, I would say that some of you are are a bit too fearful of expressing your points of view with the thought that others might differ. So what? So long as you do not attack the character of the person with whom you are disagreeing.
An occasional visit back to my first three postings will give the idea.
Please do not expect us to quickly rush through this book. We will be here in this forum longer than some of you may think. We have only just begun to cover the many issues that are in our lives today!

Robby

In a previous posting I quoted Burton in saying:'Women have a penchant for believing a man when he says he's never going to do it again."
I heard no reaction to that so I am assuming that everyone here agrees with that.

Robby

I wanted to welcome Jane DeNeve to our discussion. Jane is so busy constantly keeping the technical side of Senior Net going that it is an honor to have her taking the time to share with us.

Robby

Robby I guess they do as "hope dies last" but sometimes hope does die and then we have divorce. Personally at my time of life I have become cynical I think and I would not have hope and one time would be the last.

Annafair, Bill H, Ginny, you said it better than I ever could. Same sex marriages and nudity are important issue that need to be openly discussed even if my 'puritanical' upbringing prevents me from finding the words to express what I think about this. I am so glad I was born a long time ago. See how well I go around telling my age?

Eloïse

You do like to keep the posts boiling ...Women have a penchant for believing a man when he says he's never going to do it again." I cant comment on that because I was never in a position to worry about that. Do you ask never ? YES NEVER! My marriage was unique ..not because I thought it was unique but because it was. I cant recall being in a situation in the 44 years we were married that it ever came up..we treated each other as equals and if I encouraged him in his interests he did the same for me. Friends have asked if we ever disagreed and I would say OF COURSE IN STEREO AND LIVING COLOR but he never made promises he didnt keep and neither did I ..so others would have to reply to that ..from some of the things I have observed I would say a lot of women beleive that and IMHO it is because they are not willing to challenge him and take the risk of losing him. anna

This NY Times abstract gives the profile of Kucinich that Studs was wanting us to understand. His beliefs turning into action. Please note the "non-violence."

NATIONAL DESK | January 2, 2004, Friday Past Defeat and Personal Quest Shape Long-Shot Kucinich Bid

By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG (NYT) 2670 words

Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 1 , Column 5

ABSTRACT - Eighth article of series Challenging Bush examines life, career and campaign of Dennis J Kucinich; he is seeking White House on platform of 'nonviolence as an organizing principle of society'; he was elected mayor of Cleveland, Ohio, at very young age, and at age 33 he was drummed out of office; his stunning political comeback culminated with his election in 1996 to House of Representatives; this came after he had consulted spiritual healer who, he says, led him on path toward inner peace; his campaign manager is practitioner of healing arts who has never before worked in politics; he has become boutique candidate for peace activists and Hollywood liberals; although his poll numbers are in single digits and his campaign donations are pittance compared to other candidates, he is convinced, he says, that he can 'make the impossible possible' and win Democratic presidential nomination and general election; those who know him best say he is serious man with serious ideas, who believes it is his duty to offer vision for repairing world; photos; timeline showing major events in his political career (L)

Robby, see my post #160 for agreement on Mass Court decision.

I already read that, Justin.

Robby

"'Women have a penchant for believing a man when he says he's never going to do it again."

That is an insulting remark. It has the half-truth (or rather one one hundredth truth) of all such insulting remarks. He doesn't say whether he is referring to infidelity, battering, or something else. Those who have had any contact with women in abusive relationships, or relationships where there trust is abused again and again would not so trivialize it. If I said "men have a penchant for physically abusing their wives" or "men have a penchant for repeatedly abusing trust", you would rightfully be angry.

Having been in the discussion of women in prison, I might have come away believing that all men were abusive sexual preditors if I did not know better from my own experience of being married to a good man. But the women who find themselves in that situation need serious help, not sneering remarks. There are many and complex reasons why some women stay in bad relationships with men, including lack of choice, concern for the children, or simple physical intimidation.

Your respone was better than mine..and I thank you for it...You are right that women stay in some relationships ONLY because they have no alternative. They dont believe he will change but they might hope and wish and pray he would. AND we do need to do something to help those and give them a way so they can be honest and SAY NO I DONT BELIEVE YOU and they can leave and not have the spector of homeless, lack of help, lack of employment and the chance to find something better for themselves and thier children.

We shouldnt forget the women who are dead not because they believed he would change but because they tried to leave...thank you again for a really great post..anna

Two things:

Women, during the depression where I lived, held Quilting Bees. A number of women would get together and sit around a wooden frame on which a backing was on and sew patches on to it to make a patchwork quilt, talk and have tea or whatever. I would take up an afternoon, gave the women a break from their normal day (children were brought along and played under the eyes of their mothers or Grandmothers.

Nudity, nothing will take the novelty or anything else out of Nudity quicker than being on a Nude Beach with several tons of middle aged naked flesh. Tis boring as all get out and not at all sexy. Would make a vouyer run.

Tiger Tom

Jane; I agree. The legal issues in same sex marriage, now, are interstate issues that can only be resolved by the US Supreme Court. Vermont and Massachusetts declaring that "civil unions do not go far enough" are challenging the thirty four opposing states to deny their citizens full recognition under the full faith and credit clause. The battle for reciprocity will be interesting.

"There are many and complex reasons why some women stay in bad relationships with men, including lack of choice, concern for the children, or simple physical intimidation."

Joan K & Annafair

I would have to agree with you somewhat, both of you were/are fortunate you had good marriages, but having gone thru two BAD Marriages from my own experiences it is a MATTER of PURE CHOICE whether a woman/man remain in bad relationships. It takes courage to say "You betrayed my Trust," or go through a "Hysterical Emotional Breakdown because of rejection" or "physically fight back" or have the children watch the abuse because of the FEAR that was instilled by the opposite sex, Hopefully you choose the right means to break off the bad situation and move forward.

Anna said:

"All of the things we see with the type of seductive and lewd acts is not love and it certainly isnt good sex. It is exploitive, debases and ridicules love and certainly sends the wrong message to young people who begin to beleive that what they are seeing is love..and are fooled into thinking if they behave likewise they will find love."

This is exactly the same kind of statement elders made and preachers in the pulpit preached when I was a teenager in the 40's. Skirts were above the knees. Swing music was rockin' the world. Everybody was doing the jitterbug. Minds were "corrupted" by books like Peyton Place and unrated movies. People were afraid of the effects and influence of these on the youth of the country.

"Women have a penchant for believing a man when he says he's never going to do it again."

Women of my generation were taught to obey their husbands and believe what he said. Despite some liberation for women, I know some young women today who think much the same way.

In my youth it was nearly unthinkable that a woman would leave her husband, so she put up with any number of things and hoped when the husband said they wouldn't happen again that he really meant it this time. Divorce was a dirty word. In a way, we women were cowed by tradition and belief in what our parents told us -- or implied -- that men were the breadwinners and superior.

Women also thought about what would happen if they did leave. How would they support themselves and two or three children? Women think about that now, too. Regardless how strong a woman is, it is not always easy to walk away from a bad situation and fend for herself and her family.

Mal

Your situation is why I changed my mind about divorce I think you are saying you made the right choices and did go on. The women I knew that chose divorce were right to do so. No human being should have to live with an abusive husband. Whether it is physical, mental, or emotional. Nor if the reverse is true no man should have to do it either.

If a relationship is destructive than divorce would seem to me a good thing. It always seemed that a man in that situation quoted the Bible that he should be head of the household...doesnt say anything about beating or abusing as the way to be the head of a household.

And never in my mind did I believe God meant marriage to be anything except a way for humans to share their lives in a loving, caring supportive relationship.

we certainly have a lot to contend with just living, earning a living, having a roof over our head, surviving the loss of loved ones, health concerns, and the list goes on so we shouldnt have to add abuse or ill treatment to the list.

I am sorry you had to live through those times but I am glad you did live through them and came out the other side. A hug from a friend in Virginia ...anna

Janet's bare boob and the outcome of the superbowl are trivial topics. A topic of serious concern is that of why women put up with abusive men who say they won't do it again. I have been raising funds for battered women's shelters for many years. I have been told again and again by the professionals that fear is the reason women stay with men who batter them. She is afraid she can not support herself and her children alone. Her confidence has been shaken, sometimes by years of abuse. She thinks she could not get a job and still care for the children. She cannot leave the children with her husband for fear he will abuse them. She is afraid her husband will find her if she leaves.

Women who call a shelter are taking a very brave step. They are told what to take with them and how they will be picked up. The process is very secretive. At the shelter she will find counselors who understand her fears and who will take great care to protect her and her children.

Raising money for battered women's shelters has been one of the good things I have done in life. It has given me enormous satisfaction.

JUSTIN: good for you!!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13970-2004Feb4.html

NEW YORK, Feb. 4 -- New York City, site of the country's most horrific terrorist attack, Wednesday became the latest in a long list of cities and towns that have formally opposed the expanded investigatory powers granted to law enforcement agencies under the USA Patriot Act.

The New York City Council approved a resolution condemning the law, enacted by Congress six weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, with a voice vote in its chambers a few blocks from the gaping hole at Ground Zero.

"The Patriot Act is really unpatriotic, it undermines our civil rights and civil liberties," said council member Bill Perkins (D-Manhattan), the bill's sponsor. "We never give up our rights that's what makes us Americans."

The resolution criticized the Patriot Act for allowing infringements on privacy rights. Among other provisions, the Patriot Act allows investigators to see citizens' library records and eases requirements for search warrants. The council requested that Congress deliver periodic reports accounting for the information and records on New Yorkers the federal government has culled under the Patriot Act, but the measure has no means to enforce that request.

The vote follows months of negotiations between resolution supporters and New York City Council leadership. A major sticking point in the original proposal of the resolution centered on language prohibiting the New York Police Department from enforcing immigration laws, collecting information on activist groups and businesses, and refraining from establishing an anti-terrorism reporting database.

After Wednesday's vote, City Council Speaker Gifford Miller (D) said the measure in its final version "strikes the right balance."

"The resolution has evolved to focus on what's really needed: amendments to the law to protect civil liberties particularly, at a time of war," he said.

New York joins 246 municipalities and counties and three states that have passed legislation in opposition to the Patriot Act, according to the Bill of Rights Defense Committee, an organization that helps local governments craft anti-Patriot Act legislation.

"So much is being done in the name of New York, we are saying don't use our name to infringe on people's rights," said Glenn C. Devitt, an organizer with the Bill of Rights Defense Committee.

Local governments in Virginia and Maryland have approved similar measures, including Montgomery County, Prince George's County and Alexandria.

Mark Corallo, a Justice Department spokesman, dismissed the local governments' resolutions, saying the majority were passed in locales with left-leaning constituencies and based on "erroneous" information about the Patriot Act.

Corallo said the act has been "one of the most important tools Congress has given the government to fight terrorism and prevent terrorist acts."

A handful of New York council members, both Democrats and Republicans, agreed and voted against the resolution.

Dennis Gallagher, a Republican from Queens, called the resolution a vehicle for attacking the Bush administration. New York suffered a great loss on Sept. 11, 2001, he said. The Patriot Act "is one step in ensuring this never happens again."

But at a rally of supporters, Monica Tarazi, New York director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, said the Patriot Act and other tactics to fight terrorism has sowed fear within New York's ethnic communities and activists.

"This country is not about registering [people] and ethnic profiling," she said. "We need this [resolution]. We need this as Americans."

Many times (not some times but many times) when a man says he will not do it again, he really means it. This is for varying reasons. He might have acted this way when he was drunk and then apologized when the alcohol was out of his system. But then he drinks again and the cycle repeats. It might be a man who doesn't drink but has an "anger" problem, often due to incidents that happened in his life, perhaps during his childhood. Anger management classes may help (although I haven't seen them as too successful.) When he comes to realize on an intellectual level just what he is doing, he may control himself for a while and promise it won't happen again but emotion is usually stronger than intellect (this is a whole subject unto itself.)
As for women returning to men who batter them, while it may be for economic reasons often it is not. Please don't anyone here tell me I am comparing these unfortunate women to prostitutes. But ask:-"Why do prostitutes continue to go back to the pimp who degrades them?" They earn $100 and give $90 to the pimp. Why? They could easily keep the $100 for themselves and earn even more.
The answer is "attention." Keep in mind, this may be hard to accept, but often in life receiving attention of the negative type -- physical abuse, emotional abuse -- is to some people better than no attention at all. Being ignored as a non-person. These women have not yet learned how to give themselves attention, i.e. building up self-esteem and learning self-caring.

Robby

In the next chapter, Clancy Sigal says:-"My mother was full of hope and pizzazz and bounce and energy. She was a radical, a single-mother, a labor organizer. She had a super-energetic kid to raise. I was her only child. She was twenty-nine when I was born."
Boy, do I relate to that! Although my mother became ill later and died when I was nine years old, in my early years she was full of pizzazz. I, also, was super-energetic and an only child. While my mother was not a labor organizer, she was definitely a "radical" in her thinking. She was twenty-eight when I was born.
She was determined that her son was not going to "follow the crowd." So at the age of six, I was reciting the 23rd Psalm in front of a packed congregation and having no fear whatsoever. At the age of seven I was submitting poems and essays to the newspaper and having them published. At the age of seven and a half I was starting the violin and by the age of eight was playing "Minuet in G" over the radio station. Throughout this time I was receiving the highest marks in the class year after year. At the age of nine I became the soprano soloist in the local boys choir.
Sounds as if I am on a big ego trip, doesn't it? If you think so, you have missed the point. At the age of 83 I don't need to brag about my childhood accomplishments. I am not talking about me. I am talking about my mother.
Sigal continues:-"This woman became a hero for me and a model."And that is exactly what I am saying. My mother never doubted that I would go to university and receive a doctorate. And here I am. She lives within me.
Activism takes many forms. One definition is making one's life an active one rather than just "talking the talk."
Do the comments of Sigal bring forth any memories here of one's parents as role models?

Robby

Robby needing attention so much they stay with an abuser is not something I would have considered. Although my feeling that sometimes the woman doesnt protest is because she is afraid of losing the man might fall in line with your expierence.

When I was much younger my sorority supported a local shelter for abused women. It was about the time our two boys needed separate rooms so their beds, desks, chair and chest of drawers were used to furnish a room at the shelter. Our husbands took it there and put it in place. The chapter furnished new bedding, linens , curtains etc..we did a lot in supporting the home ..including volunteer work at the home itself. Furnished birthday and Christmas gifts for both the women and children...clothes if necessary since some came without anything. No one knew where it was located and even in conversation we never mentioned the location. Volunteering at the site itself was scary for us since the women were so afraid when they arrived they transferred that fear to us. After we aged enough and felt we could no longer contribute our persons for volunteering ( although we still supported it through money and gifts) one husband did find out where it was located ..police were called but by the time they arrived he had been on a rampage. That home was shut down and relocated.

We now have a place for not only abused women but for homeless women and their children about 3 miles from where I live. Our church supports it in many ways ..in fact it is supported mostly by donations from the public although the city is considering support. We are not the only church that helps and we also help by donating items to be auctioned off ie cars , good used appliances etc. The volunteers who work there are so positive. I have been strictly as visitor but since I am almost deaf I no longer volunteer myself. This has been a community effort.

Do you feel the lack of self esteem in both men and women are from the home environment ? Just thuoght I would like your feelings on that..anna

That is so typical of the male of the species, uphold the mother as a paragon of virtue whilst damning other women because they are battered. Of course its all their own fault makes it so much easier to blame the woman and if you dont want us saying you are comparing these women to prostitutes well dont do it.You may have a degree you have no compassion thats for sure.I wont even put forward an argument to such nonsense as it sickens me to read it. Still Americans have a mangled view, Bill clinton is ok but Monica was a hussy, Janet Jackson is a disgrace for showing her breast but the bloke who showed her breast is free and clear. God bless America.

Trishamin:--You are certainly entitled to your view. That is what this discussion group is all about. Please continue to share your thoughts. We need to hear all sides.

Robby

Robby I hope you realized when you were being loved and cared for while young what a wonderful mother you had. I loved my parents but I had to grow and even age to appreciate all they were and how special they were.

Mostly I had hear the stories from those whose home life was less than benign.

We were six, five brother and myself. I can look back and see how mom kept the older boys occupied so they didnt get into trouble. My friends were always saying ..your family is always painting, repairing , papering etc redoing...and that was true . Mother kept my older brothers at tasks around the house. They learned to launder their special hand washed clothing, and our home was always open to parties we all gave but it was the person who invited guests responsibilty to clean house, roll up rugs, wax floors for dancing, help with all the chores involved with entertaining. AND they had to clean up afterwards.

We were never allowed to skip school and heaven forbid that a school teacher would appear at our home because we werent working to our potential.

Our parents supported our interests, encouraged our efforts, and loved us ...during my teens I felt they were rather old fashioned ..as most teens do but they were always fair. From childhood we were told we couldnt marry until we were 21 ..that was the law. I dont think any of us realized it was our parents law not THE LAW. We were supposed to stay in school and think ahead. The youngest brother of my three older joined the Coast Guard when WWII broke out and left school. My parents even had to sign for him. And the war disrupted their education but when they returned they continued thier education using the GI Bill to do so.

By telling us we couldnt marry too young we set our sights on other things..education, hobbies, interests etc and my mother telling me there are worse things in life than never marrying gave me the belief that while marriage might be something I wanted to do it was not something I needed to do. It gave me the courage some of my friends didnt have to wait until I was sure I was marrying the right person and gave me the feeling of self respect so I would never accept being a silent partner in a marriage and would if necessary demand to be treated as an equal..I have often said I have only one regret in life...that while my parents knew I loved them I would have loved to let them know how much I appreciated them. My fathers love and respect for my mother and his caring for us..made me look for a man who had the same character..so that my children would know they had a father and not just a man mother married. anna

Excerpts from the book Couldn't Keep it to Myself written by inmates and former prisoners at the York Correctional Institute, a women's prison in Connecticut, and edited by Wally Lamb:

BRENDA MEDINA Brenda Medina is serving a sentence for being present at a gang-related murder. While in prison, she has obtained her high school equivalency degree and has earned 36 credits toward an associate's degree. She is a bilingual tutor registered with Literacy Volunteers of America and has taught fellow Hispanics to read, speak and write English. She is a reporter, photographer and editors for the York Voice, an inmate newsletter.

A man with whom she's having a relationship imagines she's spending time with other men.

"Manny grabbed me by the neck and shoved me to the bathroom floor."

"Manny had a gift for making me feel gulty when I'd done nothing wrong. His accusations kept me off-balance and confused. But whenever I'd tell him I'd had enough -- that I was breaking our relationship -- he'd cry, beg, remind me of how few breaks he'd had in life before I came along. 'I'm never going to lay a finger on you again,' he'd promised. Maybe it's true, I'd tell myself. Maybe he's learned his lesson. And what was waiting for me if I did leave him? The same world that had never accepted me -- that had never made me feel special the way Manny sometimes did. So the cycle continued: explosions, promises, sweetness, new explosions."
DIANE BARTHOLOMEW Diane Bartholomew served 10 years of a 25 year sentence for killing her husband during a psychotic break. He had physically and sexually abused her during their 24 year marriage. While in prison Diane developed breast cancer and underwent "rigorous self-reflection through counseling and self-help groups." A high school dropout, she earned an associate's degree and went on to pursue a bachelor's degree in social work. Her goal was to become a mental health counselor for victims of domestic abuse. Her cancer returned, was misdiagnosed, and she died five months after being released from prison.
This is what her father did to her when she refused her sister's demand that she wash a coffeepot. "He whacks me a couple across my legs. . . . He lifts me off the ground, then slams me to the kitchen floor. He beats me some more with his belt." Her father beat her mother, too, and abused Diane sexually.

Later Diane has a boyfriend and becomes pregnant. They marry. The arguments begin, and her husband takes up where her father left off, beating her often. They have more children, and the pattern of abuse continues. Her way out? She killed him.
BARBARA PARSONS LANE A former healthcare worker, wife, mother and grandmother, Barbara Lane is serving a 25 year sentence for manslaughter due to emotional duress. While incarcerated, she has earned an associate of science degree from Three Rivers Community-Technical College, graduating with honors. She has maintained active membership in such support groups as Survivors of Abuse and Struggles; is studying microcomputers and journalism, and is involved in York C. I.' s Prison PUP Partnership, where she and other prisoners train Laborador Retrievers to assist adults and children with special needs.
Barbara Lane came home from work one day to find her yard full of dead birds that her husband had used for target practice. Barbara and her husband fight about his affairs with other women and his behavior toward her. He often talks about "terminating" people who get in his way. Barbara goes to a lawyer about a divorce. Her husband's reaction was to take her for a ride to the mountains where he pulls out his Colt .45 and tells Barbara he's going to set up targets to shoot. "You came all this way just to target shoot?" she asks. "No, I came all this way to show you how easy it would be to make you disappear. See how easy it would be to get rid of you?" Barbara's conclusion is that he does not want a divorce, and she's afraid he'll kill her if she tries to leave him.
The discussion of Couldn't Keep it to Myself is in the Books and Literature Archives. It's especially interesting because some of the writers joined in the discussion, as did Wally Lamb. There is a follow-up discussion because of this book called Prison Education Initiative you might be interested in.

TRISHAMIN, what's your opinion of men and women in Australia, where you live? Is it the same as your perception of men and women in the United States, which I assume you've never visited?

Mal

TRISHAMIN

I can actually say to you that WOMEN can also abuse MEN, that you don't hear about it doesn't surprise me. Do You Not Know of any MEN who have gone through a DIVORCE and heard/listen to their tales of WOE.

I had to play mother/father to my three children and believe it was not easy. My children learned from me, society and extended family and I am damn proud of them.

So, Justin, you think Janet Jackson showing her tit is trivial, and your concern with abused women is what's important. (Post 211) Apparently in your view, if I can interpolate your comments, abusive, controlling men in this culture spring full grown from the head of Zeus. Where do you think these terrible men come from?

Popular culture doesn't play a role in young men learning the abusive role? Justin Timberlake "tearing" off Jackson's bodice sent a powerful message to many thousands of beer soaked young males watching the Superbowl. That message being: "This is the way to treat a woman! Look how she really likes it. She's just pretending to be startled. That's how to be in charge." Or, more likely, sheer laughter at taking her protestations seriously.

And then, the anguished, hand wringing commenced by the conventional wisdom guardians of this culture likely helped young men see this kind of behavior as rebellious and cool.

Where do you think role models come from in a country where such a large percentage of young boys and men do not have a father around, or if they do he is irrelevant.

I suppose you also would dismiss as "trivial" Rap music that talks about beating, killing, and raping all the"hos" out there. Your comments seem to indicate that you view popular culture as incidental to American life and its problems. I view it as part of the problem. I think an argument can be made for changing America by changing the popular culture.

How do you think men in this culture LEARN how to abuse woman? Or are your concerns only with helping the victims of such abuse? I haven't seen any discussion, unless I missed it, of why MEN act the way they do. Only protestations of women being taught to be subservient, men demanding this and that, and pious examples of wonderfully equal marriages led or being led.

And although I'm sure all the participants in this discussion brought up their male children with "proper respect for women," sensitivity, and all the other virtues, that wasn't my point.

This post is way too serious for me. I must add, "So there!"

I think I'm going to do something very rare for me and gently disagree with Justin, whom I admire and respect very much, but I think I want to say that this, " Janet's bare boob and the outcome of the superbowl are trivial topics, " is not so.

We have just spent 5 weeks as Malryn points out in her post above, thank you Malryn, listening to the searing testimonies of abused women. Interval House, a shelter for abused women is an equal partner (more than equal, Wally Lamb has given even more then their share) of the proceeds of the book Couldn't Keep it to Myself, and Wally Lamb in his live chat with us stated that

For me, the biggest joy of having had two novels selected for Oprah's Book Club has been the ability to write larger checks to soup kitchens, homeless shelters, etc.

And Justin, as I see you, too are a strong advocate of helping abused women, I echo Malryn's invitation into our Prison Education Initiative, because we ARE going to be given the chance there to reflect encouragement and hope back to some of them.

Having gone thru this searing fire in the Wally Lamb discussion, I now know that the half time show of the Super Bowl with all its misogyny, is a symptom, and a serious one, of the pervading attitudes in this country toward several things, including the abuse of women (surely we don't have to reproduce the lyrics here) and are not trivial, not by a long shot.

Come on down, Justin! We can use your compassion, apparently compassionate men are hard to find for these women.

ginny

Yes, MOXIE, there are many, many men who have been physically and verbally abused by women. The web is full of articles about them.As Rodney King cried out, “Why can’t we all just get along?”
Mal

put up with abuse from their men. I think in many ways it is genetic, sort of like the appendix which may have been useful at one time and is no longer useful. When women were ALWAYS pregnant, heavy with child, and had babies which took a long time to raise (human babies take longer to raise than any other mammal), she needed protection. In order to get that protection she tried to please---even if the man was brutal. That is, hopefully, how she and her children survived. He was unencumbered to go hunting. She was not. I even read somewhere that in the ancient Teutonic tribes when a woman's husband died, she had to find another husband immediately or the tribe abandoned her and here children, meaning she was left alone to die. She had no protection whatsoever. So over the time human beings were in such straits, certain traits survived. In the female it was a trait of submission. In the male it was the trait of dominance and aggression.

We keep forgetting that this is really the first century in which a woman has had the chance to be financially independent and to survive on her own. But, like the appendix, the traits which were once useful are still there, in both men and women. I don't think they will always be there, but it will take time. In the meantime women need to be educated to defend themselves, and men need to be trained to control their aggression---not only so women don't get abused, but also so we can have a more peaceable world.

As for Janet Jackson, I agree with Tooki's #223 post. It is NOT trivial! At the same time, I think Jackson was a co-partner in this incident for the sake of publicity, and again, our news media went right along with it, and so did the public. According to MSN, the Jackson incident got more hits on the internet than the attack on 9/11. Very strange. It has nothing do do with nudity. It has everything to do with the shock value and total disrespect for women, and publicity because Janet has a new album coming out. Disgusting!

HOPE. I guess in a way you could say they believe that "HOPE DIES LAST". I've known many women who say, "Oh he's young and he'll grow up. I just need to give him time." and they keep hoping. It's only when hope for the relationship dies because of continual abuse that she will finally "get out", but by that time she's been brow-beaten and has become too fearful to leave, and he's become more aggressive and threatening. Seems like a perfectly natural sort of sick pattern to me. And that's exactly why women need all the help they can get, and safe havens, so they have an option as to whether or not to leave.

And yes, men are also abused, and need the same education and opportunity to be able to leave such a relationship, and the freedom to discuss it openly.

Human beings are all the same whether they be Kiwis Australians and Americans we all have our dysfunctional relationships. I believe the sort of behaviour we are discussing here is often learned. Boys learn to be control freaks and women stay in bad relationships because that is all they have known when they were growing up. It takes courage to break the cycle. However the hope is that many people are breaking the cycle. They are realising there is something wrong and sorting themselves out before they go into a marriage and begin to raise children. I think we can thank the media for this awareness and the willingness of victims to speak out instead of as when I was a child being covered in a cloak of silence. We can also thank the wonderful organisations and the volunteers who work with battered women and men too that these women have somewhere to go if they want to get out. Men can be in violent relationships and be the victims too so remember that.

There is no shelter for abused men that I know of, but when women go to a shelter, most of the time she has children to protect.

Anna, you are one of the lucky one who lived life where family menbers all respected and loved each other, but may I point out that that is the exception rather than the rule especially today.

Eloïse

This letter from a reader appeared in today's Sacramento Bee;

"For years I have questioned why a television set was referred to as a 'boob tube.' Now thanks to Jackson, my question has been answered."

I have four kids and three of them are married with children. I am really proud of them because they work at their family relationships. My daughter was telling me about a conversation with a young unmarried friend the other day. She told the friend that men and women ARE different and a successful marriage consists of communication, compromise and negotiation. She was the first one married and I believe her and her husbands example of how they handled their relationship has been a wonderful example to her siblings. My role as a mother has been to listen and never give advice to my children if they have an issue they are dealing with in a relationship. I am impartial and they know I am very fair. However I should be compelled to speak up if violence was involved in any way. Many years ago when my sons were teenagers I spoke about domestic violence to them. I told them if either of them ever hit their partners I would not be on their side in fact I would take in the partner and banish them. I do know of parents who have defended their sons who have used violence and that to me is a real NO NO.

I never watch the Super Bowl. It is trash, and the fact that trashy people appear at half-time shows is not surprising. The almighty dollar is the most important thing and Super Bowl Bowl commercials bring in millions.

Will any of you boycott the products that brought you that disgraceful display? How many of you have communicated with CBS?

In all the years that Studs has been on this earth, he did more than "talk the talk".

I thought I had brought up a specific subject....divorce!@. Divorce is protected under the law. Even the Catholic Church has found ways to allow divorces. It's OK fo Elizabeth Taylor to marry and divorce nine time.

How many of you seniors have been divorced at least once? Did the SCOTUS have any comment? You've talked round and round my initial point..civorce is OK, no matter how children are hurt.

But gay is bad! I know of two beautiful gay unions. One couple lives next door and one of them is a JUdge! She will oficiate ate my son's wedding. These women own a lovely condo together.This is a permanent relationship, yet what will happen when one of them dies?

It's hard for me to believe that Vermont is attempting to change "civil union" to "marriage" Howard Dean was quite specific about marriage being a stat and/or religious matter. He was governor five times.

"Women's liberation is the liberation of the feminine in the man and the masculine in the women." (Corita Kent - U.S. graphic artist, 1918-1986)

--I think this refers to the "androgyny" that we discussed in another recent forum, but it is an androgyny towards being a full human being, not a physical androgyny or even a psychological androgyny.

"It is capitalist America that produced the modern independent woman. Never in history have women had more freedom of choice in regard to dress, behavior, career and sexual orientation." (Camille Paglia - contemporary U.S. writer)

-- EXACTLY! And any time there are major social upheavals, people need to redefine themselves. And while they are redefining themselves, it is like the teen years where things often are a bit chaotic. A human being who has never had any power doesn't automatically know how to use it. It takes practice. In our society the rules for marriage are being redefined, and whole groups are still in the process of redefining who they are: women, American Indians, African Americans, and even men.

Personally I think men will have the most difficult path. Women, Indians, Africans all have legitimate gripes, and to finally obtain freedom and legitimacy is easier than to give up power and control, which is what men have to do in order to share the power they have traditionally had. It's much more fun and exciting to have new freedoms and new power than to give it up in order to share it with others.

Just got my book yesterday and have started reading it. Except for the concepts of "hope" and "activism" as a springboard, the discussion seems to be ranging far and wide, which makes it very interesting.

I think the Patriot Act was passed and accepted initially in a climate of fear, not only of the terrorists but also of being thought unpatriotic if one objected. Now that this sort of mini-McCarthyism is dying down and people are taking a more critical look at the way the Iraq War was started, and the way homeland security is being handled, we will probably see both the courts and the Congress making modifications to the Patriot Act.
______________________________________________________________________

Thank you, Kiwi Lady, for stating so succinctly some of the main areas where activism is needed: "I believe every human being has a right to basic healthcare if only on a humanitarian basis. I believe every child has a right to receive an education which is of an acceptable standard. I believe every person has the right to self respect by obtaining meaningful employment."

No one knows better than I that I was fortunate...in my parents , in the man I married and in life ..period. That is the reason I get so angry ..I know what a good relationship can be, what it can add to life, how you know you can trust someone completely to be fair, honest, loving and caring. When I see things that in my opinion contribute to behavior that hurts others it makes my blood boil. I am willing to look at what contributes to behavior that hurts ... lack of self esteem, lack of an education that allows women to say I dont need a man to put a roof over my head, or pay my bills ...but what I want and wont settle for less is a man who is willing to share his life with me, to have children and raise them in a caring , good home. Someone I can love and someone who loves me. It is what I wanted for my children and grandchildren.. but it doesnt stop there..it is what I want for women and men ...to see each persons point of view and help each other to survive life. I see it everywhere ..Life is not a dress rehearsal...when humans move from life unto death I would like each to know as much as possible that they had loved and been loved. anna

"Janet's bare boob and the outcome of the superbowl are trivial topics."
Justin, like Ginny, I must respectfully disagree with the above quote. Not only do adults watch the Super Bowel, but very young children watch that sports event, also. Two of our local TV channels have a nightly sports talk show. One is on the local NBC affiliate and the other is telecast by the local affiliate of CBS, which televised the game.
Well, the NBC local talk show host went hysterical, as I knew he would. You see, he is a very good living fellow with four young children that he adores. He blasted every body including the NFL, MTV, and CBS for subjecting his young kids and other viewer's children to what he called pornography. He has a daughter about 7 or 8 and sons about 3 and 5. His youngest is only a little over a year.
His five year old son asked him "Why is she doing that, daddy?" Mommy doesn't do that." He was embarrassed for his children, his wife and himself. He went on to say that if people want porno there are plenty of web sites they can visit. Like I said, he went ballistic.
The CBS local sports talk show host was a little more calm but equally embarrassed for his young children. He claimed both he and his wife were stunned and apologized for CBS and told us that both CBS and the Commissioner of the NFL were calling for an investigation of MTV. He went on about the insensitivity of the act but not as hysterically as the other talk show host.
Justin, please be aware that young kids watch these sporting events Therefore, that was not a TRIVIAL MATER. When we start believing that baring the private parts of the human body on family watched TV, then this society is on the road to degradation.
Justin, as I said I respectfully disagree with you. However, I'm sure you didn't realize all the particulars involved with that "show." )

Bill H

"When we start believing that baring the private parts of the human body on family watched TV, then this society is on the road to degradation." --- it all depends on the purpose of baring the private parts. If it is a work of art such as a famous painting or a Greek statue, in proper context, I see that as dignifying the human body. I also see nothing wrong with baring the body when there is a legitimate context in a movie. But there is a puritanical streak in the U.S.A., as Mal said way back somewhere, that has always stymied me. I sometimes have the feeling that baring the human body in ANY context is considere pornographic, which is ridiculous.

However, when it is done in the context in which this was done, I do think it is pornographic, used to "shock" in order to continue the "buying" and materialism. It was likely also an unexpected act on the part of both participants which the networks were not expecting. And at that point the human body is used in the way of prostitution to "sell" a product, and it becomes ugly.

I have not watched any television for some 30 years now, and whenever I do get a glimpse of it at a friend's home or even in a hotel room (where I seldom stay), I am horrified by what I see---both the gratuitous sex, the bad language, the lack of any morals regarding infidelity, the rudeness, the airing of personal laundry for the sake of 5 minutes of fame, and the awful VIOLENCE. Even when I'm in a hotel room by myself with nothing else to do, I usually end up shutting the thing off because I find it so degrading to my mind, and that even goes for just changing channels as programs flick by.

Most of the people I see on television I would never invite to my home in person; so why in the world would I voluntarily invite them in on a screen?

Another gripe I have is the evening drama/soaps. They are on at an hour when 8 or 9 yr olds are still up. They show our kids that bed hopping is acceptable. That the minute a woman meets a man they have to satisfy their sexual appetites. There is nothing about committment or a deeper intellectual relationship shown to our children. We wonder then why our children end up having multiple partners and multiple divorces in a lot of cases. Children learn by example.

I see an altogether different relationship in marriages today. when I was growing up there were NO arguments or conflict in our home. At least if there was the children knew nothing about it. Or an abusive situation from anyone else who lived in town. My father worked from 7:00am until 6:00pm 6 days a week. Because he worked such long hard hrs. for us, we treated him like king. His meals were hot and on time, his slippers were warmed and no one read the paper before him. And...we LOVED doing these things for him. He took care of the yard and the garden. I never saw him do a domestic chore in his life. In my day, Dad's just didn't.

Now I see young couples who are both working; baby dropped off at daycare and are sharing in all aspects fo their lives including domestic chores. My son-in-law does all laundry, vacumning, shares the cooking and can diaper a baby with one hand while painting the laundry room with the other. Obviously these were not traits learned at his father's knee. Type A Dad was establishing himself in the business world

Perhaps growing up with kinder, gentler examples seen on TV and movies as they were growing up WERE influential? I would like to think so. Like it or not I think we are influenced by that which we are deluged with be it good or bad.

In the 70's when my kids were growing up, they had a lot of records they listened to all the time. Imagine my horror one day when I realized what they were hearing. Those Beatles songs, just as an example, are full of innuendoes and code that my kids understood and I didn't, until I made a point to find out what they meant. "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" is a song about LSD. "Penny Lane" is about pornography.

Those songs didn't say right out "I'll get you naked by the end of this song", oh, no, but the songs my boys and my little girl, eight years younger than her oldest brother, were listening to were full of drugs, sex and violence.

Going back a little to the 20's, I can name you songs that are also full of drugs, sex and violence. It was commonly known that the word "jazz" was a PC way of saying a four letter F word that affects some seniors I know so much that they walk out of a movie they've shelled out 7 bucks each to see.

The old, old song, "Dr. Jazz", is not only about fornication, it's about shooting heroin. Another hit of the twenties has as its last line "have a little sniff on me." This, of course, is about cocaine. One of the queens of popular music, Bessie Smith, recorded songs in the 20's about sex and violence, rape and abusing women that would make some people's hair curl today. Unless kids were totally isolated from the rest of the world, they were exposed to these things on their parents' windup Victrola before I was born.

What I'm saying is that what we're hearing and seeing today is nothing new. When I was 14 in 1942 I saw the first pornographic book I'd ever seen. It was a comic book being passed around on the sidewalk outside the school where I went. Pornography way back then? Sure.

Kids of those times did not go out and rape people, beat up women, and do drugs because of the lyrics of the music they heard or porn they saw on the street. No, it is other factors, many psychological, which cause immoral, illegal, anti-social behavior. If there is drug use, maltreatment of women and children, and violence in their parents' home, there is the chance there'll be the same in the homes of children who witness it when they grow up, and it won't have been caused by music, TV shows, video and computer games, or amazingly violent special effects in movies people see. None of my kids is violent, and neither of my sons abuse women. They didn't see that kind of behavior at home.

I consider TV news programs which show real life war scenes far more harmful to children than what's shown on MTV ( or on a football field. ) So do children, incidentally.

Don't forget that kids today are used to the degrading lyrics in music that is the background of their lives. So much so that some of them have told me it's boring and ho hum. From our generation gap perspective, some of us may be far more shocked and disturbed by these things than our grandchildren, for whom they're old hat and so much part of the landscape they don't even see or hear them half of the time.

It's my opinion that what we as seniors see to be degrading and a terrible comment on our society doesn't affect much younger people in the way it might us.

I'm not condoning what happened last Sunday. There's a time and a place for everything, and that wasn't it.

Oh, by the way, wasn't there a Rock star who came on the scene in the 50's who was thought to be a terrible, awful influence on youth and a sign that our nation was straight on the Road to Hades? What was his name?

Oh, yeah, now I remember. Elvis Presley.

Mal

Memory is fickle. I remember my mother as a loving, gentle, nurturing woman who sang while she washed the dishes. But how do I know what she was really like? My mother and father didn't get along or live together on a steady basis, and I was given to a childless aunt and uncle when in 1935 when I had polio at the age of 7 because my parents were Depression poor and couldn't afford my illness. My mother died five years later when I was 12 years old. I scarcely had a chance to get to know her.

My mother had to put my sisters in a day nursery because she had to go out and clean houses to earn money to keep a roof over her and her kids' heads and to buy them food.

When my mother died, my sisters went to live with my father, who married again soon after Mama died. The woman he married worked; so did he, so my sisters were alone a good deal of the time when they weren't in school.

The aunt and uncle who raised me both worked. When I was 11 they decided I could manage on my own after school and on Saturdays and during the summer, so I was alone most of the time, too. My brother came to live with the aunt and uncle who raised me. He was very much on his own, too.

My brother graduated from the University of New Hampshire where he went because of the ROTC. He immediately went into the Air Force where he worked for and received a master's degree in engineering. He retired as a Colonel from the Air Force after twenty years and worked as an environmental engineer after that.

The older of my two sisters married a man who took his Ph.D. after they were married and had children. He was a professor of English at one of the State University of New York colleges until he retired. My sister is well-known as an artist.

My younger sister married a guidance counselor at a high school. She had two children; then went to work at a college.

I won a scholarship to a prestigious women's college on a full scholarship and graduated; married a man who took his Ph.D. in inorganic chemistry after we were married and then worked for a large chemical corporation, working his way up the ladder until he became an executive in charge of many other scientists.

My brother, sisters and I had come from a so-called dysfunctional family. We had been left alone at an early age, and didn't know the kind of family a lot of you describe.

And we ended up okay.

Mal

Well, y'know, I watched the Super Bowl and I watched the halftime show -- and I did not see the boob show until subsequent news shows and on the net. Just slow I guess. -- I was more disturbed by some of the commercials and the "dancing" that preceded the controversial event. Am I going to boycott a product or cease watching CBS? Nope. I don't drink Bud anyway, and I like 60 Minutes.

As far as suggestive lyrics go, somewhere in storage is a 78 rpm record by Nellie Lutcher that has "Princess Poopooley Has Plenty Papaya" on one side -- it is full of innuendo.

I am not totally amazed by those who blame tv for the socio ills. In fact, I laugh a great deal about that kind of narrow minded thinking. What is being portrayed on tv has been going on for years. Only now because of the better means of passing information instantly on what is occuring everyone gets hyped.

Here is a scenario: My hometown got sued by Warner Bros for not showing a movie "The Moon is Blue" because the city fathers/mothers were mortified because of a shower scene. Result was the town had to present the movie and all us kids just wanted to see what the rubarb was all about! Most of us kids laughed when the shower scene came up because all it showed was a silhouette of women in a slip getting wet!

My point is don't blame tv as an influence on kids, it is up to us grownups on how to define what was/is happening to them.

Robby I just saw red sorry. At least you sparked talk.The hospital I work in has already had 27 cases of spousal abuse in 2004 where women required sutures bandaging and admittance. Not one man has showed.The statistics here are in excess of 100 to 1 the 100 of course being the female number so excuse me if I do not bleed for the battered male.I think the Jackson incident was wrong but I dont think all the blame should be sheeted at women.Malryn regarding your question, I have been to the States and felt right at home we are after all a little America and that does not bother me.We are a bit less straight-laced than you I think because we have a lot of Irish here.Our politics are similar with more british input than you.I wish people didn't think because we try to make things better for battered women that we want to batter men.I think like Mountain rose said that feminists have got it a bit wrong in that the strident selfserving does not help poor illeducated women.I know we need to chanhe our society but in the time we take to do that we do have to protect women who are the ones most being hurt just now.If women are freer than they used to be it is not easily seen here. Do you notice it never occured to them to expose Justin Timberlake. Wonder why that could be.

Tooki and Ginny: I looked at the Jackson incident as a publicity stunt in entertainment and in that sense it was trivial but as an expression of male dominance and that message sent to impressionable males, you are absolutely right. In that sense the incident is not trivial.

Professional marketing people have learned through motivational research that simple messages planted in acceptable formats are received much more readily than messages that stand alone. The credibility of the superbowl lends itself to the message that women are to be treated roughly and they will like it.

However, as in any audience there are discriminants which influence reception. We must remember that the cycle of violence starts in the home and not on TV. If parents are watching with children and the parents condone the message then the message is really driven home.

The U.S. economy is driven by consumerism and marketing. We worry about almost everything in terms of its effect on how much it will keep consumers from buying more stuff they do not really need. Even 9/11 was discussed from the standpoint of its devastating effect on the economy. Did you know that marketers are expecting a windfall through ads, coupons, and other come-ons sent wirelessly to cell phones by leveraging technology that tracks a caller's location, and at the moment there is little cell phone users can do to stop this, apart from turning off their location-tracking features. We can't watch any TV program without being subjected to marketing messages. Even videos that we pay for, and that once were free of these messages, are now crammed with them. If you try to reach almost any company these days, you get an automated system that puts you on hold and plays a series of marketing messages. The answer used to be "Turn it off." But it is increasingly impossible to do this unless you want to become a recluse and give up using all technology.

Moxiect, if TV has no influence on children, why has the past several executive administrations, including the present Bush administration, been pleading with the TV industry to curb the violence in their productions because of the harmful influence it DOES have on children?

Bill H

Hmm, I didn't watch the Super Bowl at all so I don't know what the commercials looked like nor what Janet looked like. But, for all that was shown, what was not shown is what I saw on CNN at the same time. I saw the one commercial that CBS would not air. It showed children laboring in factories to pay off the trillion dollar debt that has been piling up the last few years. Talk about Depression Years! The film was dark and dreary and the children looked like early industrial America when children worked in factories.

I haven't watched a Super Bowl in years. Wonder why we spend so much time watching football, baseball, etc. Maybe we should be out in the streets objecting to where our country is going these days. Lke the lady said early in the book, our government is pushing the rest of the world as if we want to be an empire.

Back from the classroom for the week-end. Sorry I can't be here more. I love the discussion and being far behind I used Ginny's trick about reading posts when way behind. She says to g up to the top right-hand side of the page and click on "Print Page" and you can read all the posts without having to click on "next" - "next" It works great!

Thanks for being here everone. Robby has set the tone for a really neat discussion. I can picture us sitting around in Robby's kitchen right now.

Linda

"When we played sports there were no grown ups around".
Sigal opened up my memory to the great times I had as a kid when I read that quote. Yea, we did have good times without adult interference. Whether it be a game of baseball or football, we just picked up sides to form a team and had a fun game. Sometimes there wasn't enough kids for a nine man baseball--most of the time it was softball-- team or an eleven man football team, but, heck, who cared we made do. We would go down to old Transverse Field that overlooked a dump and had a good time. We didn't have pads so we played touch tackle and woe to the kid that hit the softball all the way to the dump. He was the one that had to climb down there the retrieve it )
I say all this to make a point. Today the kids play on little league baseball teams that are managed, coached and sometimes umpired by the parents. I call this organized fun. You know, these youngsters playing on these little league teams have to be under an enormous amount of pressure to do well. They know their parents are watching the game and they know it is going to be brought to their attention if they didn't play well. Heck, even the managers and coaches let the kids know if they do something wrong. FUN! No way. I'll take picking up sides and going down to old Transverse Field overlooking that rubbish dump any day of the week instead of organized fun.

Bill H

When I was a kid bed hopping was not pushed in our faces - if it went on we knew nothing about it and thats the way it should be. Many people who are professionally involved with kids say that TV has a huge influence on the way they think. My children are not narrow minded at all but even they will not let their children watch the soaps I spoke of before or violent cartoons. In fact some of my grands hate those cartoons. Brooke asks me to turn off the TV if any of the programs she is not allowed to watch come on and I am not in the room. My DIl who was a Police officer and will be going back to work Jan next year will not let her son watch violence on TV she says it desensitises children.

What do you think of OPRAH WINDFREY ???

Eloïse

Bill H:

My children watched what I was viewing on tv. When they asked about what was going on I would answer a story. When we watched tv reruns of the war movies that i grew up with - the answer was some of it is true parts are not, why did grown ups do that, answer stupidity of men hungry for power.

You mean to tell me Bill H, that the Bugs Bunny cartoons, we grew up with were full of violence. Get real, we enjoyed the laughter.

Yep, Bill I played tag/runner Football too, I grew up in a neighborhood full of boys.

When you forbid a kid to do something, better be prepared for child to try it out.

It is up to the parent to explain that what they see on tv is for ENTERTAINMENT ONLY, LIFE IS NOT LIKE THAT.

The violent behavior is NOT acceptable, and it's up to the PARENT to EMPHASIS that. As well as it is up to the PARENT to EMPHASIS - RESPECT OF SELF, AND OTHERS.

This ARTICLE talks about the effect it has on a child to watch television 20 to 25 hours of television a week and on a Saturday morning a cartoon contains approximately 25 acts of violence PER HOUR.

When I hear that television content is not responsible for part of todays violence in society, I want to raise the roof. Television violence today is NOT the same as the cartoons our children watched. I watch them sometimes with my grand children. Perhaps we should all watch a little more television, it would bring us up to date on what goes on in the world.

I came home from work yesterday and there were 25 posts to read. I came home a short time ago and have just finished reading 30 posts. What do you folks think you are doin'? Sitting around shouting and pounding on the table?!! You are? Great! That's exactly what Studs wants to see -- although I think he wants a bit more. He, and all the people he interviewed in his book, encourage ACTION! Are we just a bunch of complainers and do nothing about it?
Seldom calls TV a boob tube. Horselover says we can't watch any TV program without being subjected to marketing messages. So why are you watching TV? Are you saying that if the TV goes off, you are helpless and have nothing to occupy you?
I almost never put the TV on -- partly because of the trash but the main reason is that I don't have time for it. While the Super Bowl was on I was acting as DL for "The Story of Civilization." That evening I was at my desk handling paper work. Monday through today I was at my office working with patients. When I get home I always find chores to occupy my time. I realize that many of you don't hold down full-time jobs but don't you have full-time volunteer work? full-time hobbies and recreational intersts? Tomorrow morning I leave for Richmond to attend a Board meeting and will be back home late afternoon at which time I will be sitting here reading your posts and making some of my own. I can't figure out where you folks find the time to see the TV programs that you complain about.
When my children were pre-teens I made sure that they were no where near the TV if they could be doing something else more productive. If it looked as if they might want to sneak in a program, I removed a couple of TV tubes from the back. (There were tubes in those days!)
I blame the parents who sit down in front of the TV with their kids (or even without their kids). Why aren't they being role models? When doing "intake" on new patients, one of the questions I always ask is: "What do you do for fun, what recreational interests do you have?" I have lost count of the times that the man (usually a man) says:-"Football!" Then I say in my straight-faced sneaky way:-"Oh, great! What position do you play?" Of course, he admits that he watches other people playing football. He does nothing except teach his children how to be a couch potato.
I know I am painting with a broad brush (there are exceptions) but the percentage of parents -- of both sexes -- who teach their children by showing them is insignificant. The sex has always been out there -- for millennia, if we want to be exact. When I was in my teens there were obscene comic books for sale on the streets. There were Police Gazettes for sale in the stationery stores and on the table in the barber shops.
I agree with Moxi:-"Don't blame TV as an influence on kids. It is up to us grownups on how to define what was/is happening to them."
We can give our children only two things -- Roots and Wings.

Eloise - I have watched what my grandchildren were watching, cartoons and commercials and one day my youngest who was seven at the time came out and said "That commercial is stupid and so was that cartoon."

Do we not have censorship already? Again, I repeat the adults have to monitor what is being watched, but remember how can you protect a child if all he/she is watching what is consider appropiate without showing violence. If you want to get rid of violence you as a parent has the responibility to emphasize that violent behavior is unacceptable.

Moxiect, I don't think the talk show hosts mentioned Bugs Bunny
I don't think the present administration had Bugs Bunny in mind when they asked the TV industry to curb violence
I don’t believe I mentioned Bugs Bunny in my post )
Robby, the parents should supervise what their children watch. However, there is little they can do about it when it is FLASHED on them. Perhaps Super Bowel 39 will have a Bugs Bunny act )

Bill H

Bill:-If the children are not watching TV, how can it be FLASHED on them? Have they nothing productive to do?

Robby

Bill H; No you didn't mention Bugs Bunny, I did! LOL

Robby, should not the children watch sporting events like the Super Bowl, The World Series, etc? All work and no play makes for a very dull child.

Bill H

Moxiect, you're OK. Let's play some tag football.

Bill H

Bill:-Is TV the only "play" there is? I don't call that "playing" at all. I call it "sitting." How about the child going outside and playing football? My favorite sport is baseball and I used to watch it regularly until it became more of a business than a sport. Now I go see local minor league games where the baseball is often better than the big leagues.
I suggest that the phrase "watch TV" go out of existence. If the child asks: "Can I watch TV?" the parent might answer "I don't understand that question" until the child is taught to ask: "Can I watch "West Wing" (or Law and order, or Today Show or whatever).

Robby

Bill H: Thank you!

Why is a child watching Football, Basketball? Shouldn't he/she be outdoors playing football, basketball. Those are two games I never watch because I would rather be playing them with my children rather than sit on a dumb couch. In fact the only sport I prefer to watch is ICE SKATING and I have done that too.

Robby, I imagine kids play sports besides watching TV. I know the kids in my neighborhood do. But the Super Bowl is only once a year as is the World Series. However, I don't believe parents should allow their children to sit glued to the TV. day in and day out. See, right know I'm doing something productive I'm answering your post )

Bill H

Bill H: A new game called tax football! Sounds intriguing! LOL

Bill:-I don't think we're talking here about children who watch TV only twice a year -- Super Bowl and World Series.

Robby

Yea, I corrected that typo mistake. but there is a new game in town right now and it's call income TAX time )

Bill H

Sigal in Studs' book says:-"I get excited by the idea of dissidents."
I imagine he would really like the idea of an Activist set of parents who have TV rules that the neighbors don't have.

Robby

While the children were doing important outside exams we had no TV set for five years! We were thought to be the meanest parents in the neighbourhood and our children pitied. On Saturday nights we played board games or the kids made models. We played cards or talked around the table. The kids read lots of books.

Whenever people complain to me about what's on television I say, "Shut the damned thing off!"

Because I have a tendency to work too hard, I've begun watching movies at night off and on to give myself a break from working at the computer. With that and the half hour of Tracey Ullman my daughter and I watch when she comes in after dinner, I spend no more than two hours at a time actually watching TV. If for any reason I turn on the tube in the daytime, I feel so guilty I have to shut it off.

I've never really been a TV person, frankly. I'm always busy concentrating on something else, and television is an interruption more than anything else. Listening to music on the radio is a different story.

Mal

My children felt deprived when they were growing up since we had no cable. And all of my children participated in any number of activities..I still have the trophies won for little league baseball, girls baseball (they were champions) soccer, football , roller skating competions ( we didnt have an ice rink then but my one grandson is on a hockey team) there were times when the TV wasnt turned on at all. And they were never allowed to watch just anything ...When my grandchildren are here I have boxes in the den with paper scissors, paper, old envelopes and cards, crayons, books, some simple musical instruments plus an old electronic organ that they all love to play and are now asking me to show them how< I keep a pair of binoculars handy so we can look at the birds at the feeders and books on birds so we can look up what we are seeing. Among the books I keep for them are ones on math etc and lots of magazines like National Geographinc and the collection of Science books their mothers and fathers had when they were young.......since my DILs dont have the time I am now in charge of showing them how you make bread at home and how to make cookies. In fact this coming Mon evening I will have three here and they will help to make snickerdoodle cookies. But what I do with my grandchilren I also did with my own children. Still they enjoy watching sport events because they are into them ...I also enjoy watching sport events although I have to say I miss the excitement of being there in person. I missed the half time of the super bowl because I always use that time to do other things..like taking clothes out of the dryer ..I really dont like to waste my time. Of course since the super bowl boo bra was shown umpteen times on every program I did get an idea of what went on..I have come to the conclusion the only bare skin I want to see at a football game is pig skin. anna

My son is getting involved in this discussion. He wants to know what you think of the following. He recently went to see a movie "Cheaper by the Dozen" a family movie about a family with 12 kids. After the movie was over, they showed outtakes from the movie. One of them showed the actress who played the mom giving the actor who played her oldest son a passionate kiss on the lips.

Joan I am not too impressed by that one. Why did they need to show it to a theatre full of kids?

"Many people who are professionally involved with kids say that TV has a huge influence on the way they think." -- YES! There is no way anyone can convince me that the unformed mind of a child knows the difference between reality and entertainment, especially when he is bombarded with it from babyhood on and spends more time in front of the TV set than at school or at play because parents use it as a babysitter. The other reason I'm convinced it has much influence is that advertisers use this medium to advertise for a reason---because it works!!!

Television is a PASSIVE activity, taking in information without being able to question it or even think about it much because it moves too fast, and the camera going from one scene to another so attention spans become shortened. Play is what children should be doing, being CREATIVE, obtaining socializing skills, learning with not only their heads, but their hands, building, accomplishing, becoming good at something. That's what gives self-esteem---not hours in front of a TV set.

My children grew up without TV from about the 6th grade on. They had withdrawal big time. When homework was assigned to them to watch a particular show I sent a note to the school telling the teacher "no way", and gave them another related assignment. If a teacher complained he/she got my 2 cents worth and then some for even giving such an assignment.

My daughter was always a reader, so she didn't mind the no-TV household. My son had withdrawal for about a year; and then, lo and behold, he found other things to do. He biked, he skateboarded, he got interested in botany and fish, became a wonderful photographer, and a model train expert, etc., etc. But they both suffered constant teasing for not having watched TV. It seems all the kids in school talked about the latest stuff that "Fonzie" was doing, and neither of them could contribute to conversations like that. It was hard on them.

After they grew up, however, they both admitted that growing up in a TV-less household was a good thing. These days they watch some TV but are very discriminating and would still rather do other things instead.

I have a set in my home, but it isn't hooked up and never will be. I use it to watch movies, and even about those I tend to be very picky. I do believe that what goes into the brain is what ultimately comes out too, not much different from a computer.

Since there already was a Curious Minds discussion on the effect of television on babies that included talk about its influence on older children, I'm going to post something about an important issue that is prominently on my mind -- WAR !!

In the chapter called "The New Deal, The Old War", Joyce Kiefer says on Page 41:

"I bet even money ninety percent of the Muslims are just like us. How do we get to know them better? Not by war. I heard on the news this morning that the American military presence is in a hundred and sixty-seven countries around the world. Why?"

Yes, why? What are we doing in 167 countries around the world? How many American soldiers are dying in those countries? What are we trying to prove?

On Page 42 retired Admiral Gene LaRoque tells about spending 7 years in the Pentagon as a strategic war planner, trying to find more ways to kill people all over the world. Admiral LaRocque says:

"Never once do military people think about hope. Hope in my view is a wasted emotion. . . . If we want a better world, we as human beings ought to do what we can to bring about the change."

I agree. Talk is cheap. Talk is less than cheap. We have to do something.

The Admiral goes on to say:

"Then we go alone, and the next thing we know, we're attacking different countries around the world, small countries. Many that Americans don't even remember. Grenada, Libya, Panama. All of these without any remonstrance from the American people. We always find an excuse to do it. Before we went to war against Afghanistan, we had attacked five Muslim countries -- Lebanon, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and Sudan -- in twenty years. Americans don't know; don't care how many we killed . . . . Is it any wonder that some people in the world don't like us?

"If I did have any hope, I'd hope we'd improve, but I don't want to waste my emotions on hoping Americans are going to improve. We get one war and move along, and the president can easily declare another.

"I'm very much concerned that the United States is becoming more militaristic with each passing year. We have become a nation inceasingly intent on using our military forces to get our way, both in foreign countries, and, surprisingly, in the United States.

"When other countries are involved in war, they talk about when war comes. We Americans talk about when we go to war, because that's what we do: we go somewhere else to war.

"The American public seems very happy about it because, I think, they are not aware of how frequently we go to war, and how powerfully our miltary influence is felt thoughtout the world.

"All I have to do is look back to the past sixty, seventy years of my lifetime and see when we had a terrible, stinking, difficult, disastrous period. The Depression, the wars, the killing. But it's not hope that's going to bring it ( a wonderful future ) about, it's going to be intelligent action."

Do you see why I want to talk about war and not television? This is an Admiral saying these things, an Admiral. How long are we going to let this terrible pattern of war after war after war continue? When are we going to stop and ask what good do these wars do? When are we going to count the number of people we have killed? When are we going to reckon up the number of young Americans who are dead? For what?

Are we a nation of bullies, killing anyone who stands in our way?

Mal

Mal:-You've skipped over the chapter about Arnold Sundgaard but we can get back to him after we've done the chapter about Adolph Kiefer.
How about war and the quote by Admiral LaRoque that "Hope in my mind is a wasted emotion.?" I don't hope that there will be no war because from my reading "The Story of Civilization," I have come to the conclusion that there will always be war. It is a force bigger than we small human beings. Or, to put it another way, it is inbred in all living organisms. It is survival! Peace seems to be small gaps inbetween wars.

Robby

And this current war in Iraq is not only a war which affects soldiers. Apparently from THIS ARTICLE there is a movement aimed specifically at assassinating lawyers, doctors, judges, and other professionals. I was in World War II, as were many here, and others were in the Vietnam War. Never had I heard of a war where the "upper-class white collar" people were purposely targeted. What might be the purpose?

Robby

Isn't that what China did in their "cultural revolution"? Kill off/remove any honor or prestige associated with the educated so you only have the illiterate to deal with? They're apparently much easier to "manage" than the educated.

jane

Robby one reason I left The Story of Civilization was because it depressed me to realize there was no solution. War, inhumane treatment, cruelty, torture, death of a regimes enemies, depravity was always going to be with us. Right now reading what I have written makes me ill. I cant bear not to have hope and reading it made me understand that all of those things will always be with us. At what price do we admire the wonders of the world? How many had to die to build the Pyrmids,the Great Wall , the palaces and temples we stand in awe of...These were not built by paid artisans but for the most part by slaves. Even our great railroads were built by a lot of Chinese labor who were not cared for, treated with any kindness ...we have always been a throwaway society..and there are times when what I read affects me so deeply I want to go to bed , pull the covers over my head and never wake. anna

Robby, could you please give us the link again to the NYTimes article? It comes up as just an ad so it must be the link to the ad rather than to the article. Or just send us the date of the article and the author, if possible.

We've had a lot of assassinations of leaders of our country, too, or potential leaders. I am highly suspicious about all of that. I have read about The Project For a New American Century and it seems to be the blueprint for now and the future. We are into Empire. I think this is insane.

As for TV. I've been teaching First Grade for 28 years. This year my class is almost unteachable at times. They hit, choke, kick, punch someone's face, trip, push, tackle. Well, not only has TV been teaching them this, but these kiddies were only 3-4 years old when 9/11 occurred. Life has changed since then in some ways and so have our nerves. It rubs off. I don't show any Rugrats cartoons or movies in my classroom. Sponge Bob Squarepants is a no-no with many parents, too. Why? Too much of just what my students are doing to one another.

WE are/ or were a country of basically good people. We are the leaders of the world. We should have enough sense to lead ethically, honestly, morally. But, no, we're led by unethical politicians, corporate businessmen and women, lawyers, judges. Our ethics have been even more polluted than our air. How about rallies for a moral country, a truly helpful and caring country? We have to take care of our people - the poor, the sick, the depressed, the hungry, homeless - and we need to share our food and wealth with other countries who are in need - not to win them over or so we can plant a leader in their country - no, just because they need food or help. And, in many cases, maybe we'd better not interfere in some countries; it will hurt them more than help.

Why do the rich get tax cuts? Moms have to work these days to make ends meet. Children come home to empty houses after school or go to an After School care center which tends to make those children something akin to the Lord of the Flies.

I thought our country was the greatest in the world after and during WWII. Maybe some of it was brain-washing, but I admired the soldiers and how kind they seemed to be in other countries.

It seems to me we were a kinder country then. I wish we could be kind, truly humanitarian, bring up our children with empathy for others, eliminate violence, build up morals and manners. We are in a mess.

Our soldiers today are being taught to be incredibly cruel in places such as The School of the Americas. How can they ever come back the same if they have lost a part of their soul and their moral reflexes?

I truly pine for our country and the people. The future is up for grabs. What can we do about it? We are the wise; we know how it used to be and we can envision a world even better than before. So much of today's news isn't even showing a civilized country - our nation's news is mostly violence.

Just an aside - but I've seen some of the old, old Bugs Bunny cartoons and I'll have to agree - they were pretty punchy - the laughs come from banging someone on the head with a frying pan, etc., etc., etc.

Sounds like a post from Machiavelli to Bugs Bunny. Love your kitchen decor, Robby. Cozy, too!

Linda

Linda - you are good people! All you have to do is take back your country from the fanatics who are running it!

called "Terror and Liberalism" by a man names Paul Berman (who is a social LIBERAL and no friend of GWB), and the things he says in that book are VERY interesting, to say the least. Paul Berman thinks we not only have to be in Iraq and Afghanistan, but that we should have been there a long time ago. He follows the growth of terrorism in the Middle East and ties it in with the totalitarianism that swept Europe about 80 years ago. On the dust jacket of the book are a couple of quotes:

"Paul Berman is one of our most brilliant writers on the impassioned and unpredictable life of ideas---especially the doctirnes that lead masses of people to try to change the world. The Terror War is nothing new or unprecedented. It is the same battle that tore apart Europe during most of the twentieth century--the battle between liberalism and its totalitatian enemies. Islam is not the cause of this war. Islam is the arena in which the war is presently being fought."

Regarding terrorist thinking by man named Ali Benhadj who is also quoted: "Principles are reinforced by sacrifice, suicide operations and martyrdom for Allah. Surely this, you will say, cannot be Western--surely this kind of talk is exotic! But this is how the leaders of Germany used to speak, sixty years ago. Bolsheviks were not afraid to speak like that. This is the totalitarian cult of death. This is the terrible thing that got underway more than eighty years ago.

And I have personally, when my husband was working for McDonnell-Douglas where they hired engineers from the Middle East, spoken to many of these very educated, financially sound Lebanese and Iranians, etc. When they discovered my German heritage it was always the same. They always told me how much they admired Hitler, thinking that I would agree with them. The fanatic terrorists wish to destroy the very things you hold dear, and that goes especially for separation of church and state.

So I dare you to read this book written by a LIBERAL and then come back and tell me that one can reason with people such as this who are terrorists.

Soldiers are, and always have been trained as hating, killing machines. They have to be. The other side has been trained the same way. There may be new warfare technology, but the method of making a soldier remains the same -- kill, kill kill.

What Admiral LaRocque is saying is that sitting around hoping does no good; it's action that counts if people want change. Before he talks about looking back and seeing a "terrible, stinking, difficult period", he says on Page 46:

"I don't feel hopeless. I'm very optimistic. I think the world has a wonderful future."

He goes on to say:

"But it's not hope that's going to bring it about; it's going to be intelligent action."

People aren't mentioning what I consider the most important thing this Admiral said:

"All of these ( wars ) without any remonstrance from the American people. . . . Americans don't know; don't care how many we killed."

This is a terrible statement about our nation. It is what Admiral Gene LaRocque wants to see changed. As long as the American people accept the fact that a president of their country is going to put them in a war, then another one and another one; as long as the American people blindly follow such a president's warlike lead without raising their voices and asking some questions, without protesting what is being done; as long as this happens, Admiral LaRocque and many others of us know going to war will only escalate.

Through what LaRocque has written, Studs Terkel seems to be saying to me, "Why are you allowing this? When are you ever going to do something about it?"

It's the silence of the American people which allows this pattern to continue. Question yourself. Do you really like to see American soldiers being killed? Do you really like our invading small countries and killing innocent people who live in them? If you don't, raise your voices and let those in power know. If they won't stop doing what they're doing, then we must, and it should start right now.

ROBBY, your conclusion that there will always be war is tantamount to doing nothing at all. At least, for heaven's sake, keep wars to a minimum and revert to warfare only when we are forced defend ourselves.

Admiral LaRocque says,

"Americans have become comfortable with war. It's a spectator sport for us on television. . . . All we did in Afghanistan is to metastasize the problem of the terrorists. The craziest thing is to wage war against an ism, terrorism. You can't wage a war against an ism, it's too amorphous. . .. Who can fight an ism?"

This is a man who's been in the military since he was 17 years old who's saying this. Surely he knows more about it than you or I, or even the President.

Mal

sense here when he says: "The craziest thing is to wage war against an ism, terrorism. You can't wage a war against an ism, it's too amorphous. . .. Who can fight an ism?" -- We have fought against "isms" many times, communISM and fascISM, to name just two. Those ISMS are out destroy freedom with every breath they take, to make slaves of you and me, to regulate every aspect of our lives, and those ISMS are also deadly. It is true that the individual who fights for an ISM is probably just caught up in it like a tidal wave, but that doesn't make the ISM less deadly.

In the case of TerrorISM, it is a "holy war", and the aim is to force the world to become Islam with sharia as the law instead of the secular law that we have. To give in to that would be going back to the stone age. I may often disagree with the liberal agenda, but I sure do agree with separation of church and state, and if the terrorists have their way there would be no separation of church and state, and it would be their church/belief that is in charge. Is that the sort of world we want to live in?

nonsensical, I find it downright insulting: "All of these ( wars ) without any remonstrance from the American people. . . . Americans don't know; don't care how many we killed." -- Americans are KIND people, some of the kindest I have ever known. They showed that to me even way back as a child in Germany. I ADORED those GI's who fed me and played paperdolls with me despite me being an enemy child, and stayed in Germany to help with the rebuilding and setting up basic democratic systems. Americans demonstrated big-time against the war in Vietnam, and I agreed with them regarding that unnessessary war. But this war is different.

If we don't fight this war against Terrorism with all we have, our way of life will disappear off the face of the earth and we will never be free again, to demonstrate or even talk like we are doing here. I feel so passionately about this that if GWB asked me to hand him a year of my social security payments I would write out a check and give it to him, and go back to work to survive. I've been there, done that, lived with the talk of fanaticism and what it did to people all my life. Never again!

My five brothers served in the US military..and so did my husband and I have met and known 100's of military men. NONE absolutely none I knew were killing machines.. THESE courageous men and women were willing to fight to save our way of life and not only our way but the way of humanity...I am saddened by the fact it is necessary to kill in order to have any hope for humanity but the men and women I knew killed when it was necessary and often with their hands tied behind their backs by the very politicians who sent them into battle.

My brothers who fought it Viet Nam wrote often about being in camp and seeing the Cong setting up mortars to lob into camp...the politicians said they could NOT fire first ..by the time the first mortar entered the camp and had injured or even killed Americans the CONG were gone...

And Mountain Rose I want to read that book because what he is saying is what I have said for a long time ..it is not a popular or a very accepted idea because many people prefer to be ostriches ..this is a HOLY WAR and has been and if any one thinks we can stop it by peaceful means than in my opinion they are not seeing the whole picture.

I refuse to hear that our service men and women are killing machines..they use whatever is needed to to win against the enemy. And most military people I have known would prefer never to have to kill someone..They are tortured by the pictures of what they have seen and I frankly the ones that fought in VIET NAM thought we shouldnt have been there unless we were allowed to fight to win...That we lost so many there was due to thier hands being tied...

To me I believe the war in Iraq has slowed temporarilly another 9/11 attack here but I also believe there will be more ..and when it happens in your city who will you ask to save you???A well trained military///and would you prefer them to refuse? I think there is a term for that ANARCHY>>.anna

MOUNTAIN ROSE, Hitler was a totalitarian dictator, who was trying to take over the world. Comparisons are being made between him and what's going on with the United States right now. If the Nation of Islam seems the same as Germany in Hitler's day, how does the Nation of the United States rate with its presence in 167 countries and two preemptive wars, going on at the same time? Without the voice of the people and blind following of governments that instigate wars, our democracy faces the threat of becoming a totalitarian state just like Hitler's.

MOUNTAIN ROSE, do you have this book? Admiral LaRocque says on Page 45:

"We never had a war against communism. If we did, we'd have a war today against China. We like the Chinese today. But who can fight an ism?"

I know my view and the view of the Admiral are unfortunately not the popular one. Yours is apparently the popular one, MOUNTAIN ROSE, and it is an attitude that can only foster more wars, in my opinion. Until people learn to think before they strike and sit down at a table and negotiate and talk, this pattern of annihilation will continue.

ROBBY said in regards to television:

"Sigal in Studs' book says:- 'I get excited by the idea of dissidents.'

"I imagine he would really like the idea of an Activist set of parents who have TV rules that the neighbors don't have."

What would Studs say about Activist dissidents who fight for the concept that the only wars that should be fought are the ones in which we are forced to actively defend ourselves from a real, physical enemy and not start wars to fight an "ism" belief and idea?

Mal

ANNA, my brother was a member of the United States Air Force for twenty years. Part of his duty while he was in the service was to sit at a missile site ready to push the button that would send rockets loaded with atomic devices that would kill and destroy millions and millions of people on the other side of the world. He was trained to do this, and because of that he had become part of the machine of war. My brother is a gentle, kind person. If he or any other serviceman had let their feelings stand in the way of what they were required to do, they would have either been killed or mustered out of the service or court martialed. This is what I mean.

By the way, when my brother had this duty, there was another officer with him armed with a loaded gun and orders to shoot my brother if he refused to press that button and launch those rockets.

Mal

We returned from Europe in 57 and I have often wondered why we are still there? The first thing I had to do when we arrived as a dependent was attend a meeting to let us know if Russia attacked us ...the dependents were not a first priority..we would have to drive from Germany where we were at the time through France to take a boat back to the USA ..when my husband asked what I thought of the meeting and what did the General tell us...I said he said if war came we were dead!

We were in the Phillipines and were asked to leave and we did...we were in Panama and were asked to leave and we did..now if other nations where we have troops that have been there for a long time..would ask us to leave I believe we would leave. So why are we still in Germany, France, Japan etc ...dont ask me ..ask the countries where our troops are still stationed....there must be a reason...perhaps they too realize terrorism is a HOLY WAR and they may need us when it comes...anna

BTW every place where we my husband and I were stationed the men and women on the bases helped the people of that country with money, time and effort. The wives clubs donated money and time to buy buses for the local schools, provided gifts and help to the local orphanages,to local schools and while wives who were nurses and skilled in many ways were not allowed to work on a base( those jobs went to local people to help them get back on thier feet) they did volunteer work in the communities where we were stationed. Out of our husbands income we supplied clothing , medical, school equipment and scholarships. Most of the time we were overseas my husband and fellow Americans were flying supplies and help to other countries ...We werent there to just protect our interests but I cant tell you how often my husband who was a pilot flew 80 hrs a week taking supplies to countries that were suffering from floods, unusual weather causing floods , freezing etc...to Italy , Greece , etc I cant recall how often but it was so bad that the many wives could not handle the separation, worry, being away from family and that support and were returned to the states until such time the husbands tour was over.

I enjoyed the opportunity provided by our time there ..but a lot of the travel was done with another wife or a group because the husbands coulnt go...We left Okinawa when it was returned to the Japanese and all of the funds we had raised for the local school sytem ,orphanages etc were dispersed before we left. In this case I am speaking of the families at NAHA the base the Japanese were supposed to use ...

Yes we did enjoy being in an intersting land but for most of us our husbands were flying in and out of Viet Nam ...taking supplies in and bodies out. When I am writing this I realized suddenly how much I have suppressed of those years. Because for human nature to survive we have to recall the best of what we have expierenced and not the worst..anna

because if there were missiles headed our way we would retaliate..and that was the only reason the missiles from the other side were never launched..did that make your brother a killing machine..to me it made him noble ..he was willing to do that to prevent a war...and the man who was asked to kill him if he didnt or couldnt do it wasnt a killing machine either..how awesome, how overwhelming it would have been to be asked to launch those missiles..both your brother and the other man knew what launching them would mean ...what a terrible responsibility. I shudder to think how it must have been to sit it front of that button and know what it meant..and perhaps the other man was also there to prevent your brother from over reacting and launching the missiles ...there are always two sides to every story...anna

Reading posts here is like reading the book. You are sharing your lives from your memories over the years. I think it's a very good thing.

The Commandos and the SAS ARE trained to be killing machines. Many of these men are desensitised so much that when they come out of the service there are problems. You must have read about the cases where some of them went into killing mode and killed their wives while they were in automatic pilot during sometimes a fairly minor domestic dispute. They play a computer game as part of their training and its a very violent game involving much killing. I read an article on the training of these men. This article really reinforced my opinion that violent video games desensitise our children and some of them are playing these games for hours at a time every day.

Mountain Rose - you never won one war against communism. Communism has fallen in many countries due to exposure to outside influences like Western books, writing by dissidents and never by war. Look at Vietnam and look at Korea there was never and end to that war - there is just an official ceasefire. Changes will come about in North Korea too not by war but by the tentative hand of friendship being offered by South Korea. It may not come as quickly as many of us would like but it will come.

Carolyn

CAROLYN is right. There were incidents at Fort Bragg in North Carolina not very long ago where soldiers who had returned from Afghanistan shot and killed their wives or their entire families.

Mal

Kiwi Lady wrote: "violent video games desensitise our children and some of them are playing these games for hours at a time every day."

Absolutely! I meant to mention that in my longer post about TV. Lots of my students are into that even at such a young age. Some just wiggle most of the day in class and have a hard time concentrating. These games are not good for anyne to play in my opinion.

Mal - we have not had any of these incidents here. I believe it is because we are such a small country and there is better debriefing and Psychiatric help if its needed. Maybe on the other hand the soldiers are more carefully picked out to train as SAS as we don't have a large force of them. However I believe our SAS are very highly regarded on the World scene and were also in Afghanistan with Australian, British and American SAS. I think we were attached to the Australian force from memory. Kiwi and Aussie soldiers work very well together. East Timor was a brilliant example. I am very proud of our Service people because they get on so well with the locals wherever they serve. Our Army is made up of a very large number of Maori and I think that may help here in the South Pacific.

I never believe war solved anything and I have never been a believer in "lets get them before they get us". I believe we should all be vigilant on homeland security and crack down hard on terrorism in our own lands. However we should only make the first move in very exceptional circumstances. I don't consider Iraq to be one of those instances. I do believe in our action in Afghanistan because of the large presence of Al Quaeda and Taliban in that nation and because Al Quaeda attacked the WTO.

Our hearts went out to the American people on that dreadful day. It was late at night here and I was awoken by my friend Ruth banging on my front door and shouting for me to turn on the TV. We sat shivering with shock and horror as the events of the day unfolded. We wanted to get these people who had committed such a violent act. Our PM who is a very cautious lady had no hesitation in committing our SAS to service in Afghanistan. This was no mean feat as NZers in the main are conservative in their views about the deployment of our troops. There was hardly a dissenting voice on the day she announced our committment. However our nation became bitterly divided about the war in Iraq. Our PM was not convinced that by the intelligence she received that we should committ troops to a pre emptive strike. She also believed that the war was against international law. We committed our troops to humanitarian aid after the war and so we have troops in Iraq at the moment rebuilding schools and disarming live weapons and landmines.

Carolyn

I don't even know where to begin to answer the 50+ posts I've read today. Someone said, "I got so angry, I wanted to raise the roof". Another said, "I want to pull the covers over my head".

I did som "googling" to find out about "Paul Berman". He could never be my roll model. I think we need to stop throwing terms around like "Social Liberal". It is a term. It is a label!

Studs is telling us about Activists! I am apalled to think this is a "holy war".. I think it is an unholy war". Our young people who fight this war are being told they are fighting for our freedom!. I can understand why our troops went to help England in WW2. A monster was loose who was taking over country after country. This was no idle threat.

So we blew up Afghanistan because Saudi Arabians took over our planes and murdered thousands. And Hussain murdered thousandsof his own subjects in 1988 and we did NOTHING. Well, not quit nothing...we did give them the materials with which they murdered their own.

So I'm an activist! In the days I could march and hold signs, I did. Now, I donate, I sign petitions and I subscribe to "Working Families", "Common Dreams" and I'm called an UnAmerican, UnPatriotic, and every other demeaning word that war-mongers use.

To close...remember the songs "Teach you Children Well" and "You have to be taught to Hate". My son marched in Chicago on the Night that Lake Shore Drive was closed by the sinister group of people who want peace not war, love not hate. I wished I'd have been there!

In my newspaper , on the TV etc every day there are incidents of people killing each other..that were never in the military or trained "to be killers" men and women who kill thier spouses, their children, their parents, their neighbors etc. So please dont say these men killed thier spouses etc because of their training...you have no idea why they did it...and neither do I ...why are children abducted and killed almost daily? Why do people drink and drive and kill others? Why do mothers drown their children in the bathtub? DID they learn that by playing violent games ? lets be fair...none of us know why they did it...and some of the killers couldnt tell you either..anna

ANNA, the military called these killings at Fort Bragg the result of "War Trauma".

Mal

Anna be rational about this. When there is more than one incident that close together and the perpetrators are servicemen just home from active duty does not that ring warning bells! THINK ABOUT IT!

When I was a child, my brother and I grew up thinking killing was bad. My brother and I played Cowboys and Indians and Cops and Robbers with kids in the neighborhood. We had cap pistols loaded with caps, and we shot the bad guys and killed them. We were playing a game. What is the difference between that and today's video games?

I raised my children to believe killing is bad and war is bad. My daughter raised her son the same way. My grandson played what I, his grandmother, thought were very violent video and computer games from the time he was very small. There isn't a violent bone in his body, and he would never lift a hand to anyone except in self-defense because of what his father and mother taught him.

Mal

"What is the difference between that and today's video games?"

Mal, the difference is that video games are ineractive and when you kill a guy in a video game, HE IS DEAD, but when you killed your brother in a game, he fell down with a smile on his face and got up. All the videos I watched kids play are about murders and explosions. You should see their faces too, The studies done on the effect of videos are very concluent on this, videos teach kids violence. They teach them to see crime in a detached manner. Videos teach war. They are not innocent back yard playing.

After being on Story of Civlization for almost three years now, this too is going to pass, because we have learned that history repeats itself.

Eloïse

Mal I think the difference is that the games are so graphic. I saw one the other day which our Govt has banned - they showed us excerpts on TV it was really horrific. Some kids probably in your country are hooked on this game and will be playing it for hours.

Last week we had our first firearms offence by a kid. He took his fathers rifle from the cabinet and began firing at neighbours windows and into the adjoining school. The police said he was a crack shot. He was EIGHT years old! One of the teachers was narrowly missed and it was only by the grace of God nobody was killed. The kid apparently had replaced the rifle and gone off calmly to school after the shooting spree. He attended the school he was shooting at. I wonder if that kid had been playing some sort of shooting game on his Play station! How did he get to be such an accurate shot at EIGHT Years old?

and I'm not asking this to be controversial. I'm asking this because I really want to know.

How is it that most of you talk about "social justice" and at the same time you can turn your backs on a killing machine such as Saddam and his sons? Is it because it didn't happen here that hundreds of thousands were killed with gas and put through meat grinders? Are his rape rooms nothing to you because it didn't happen to you or to your daughters? Do the children that were imprisoned and the mass graves that were found mean nothing to you? How in heaven's name can someone say they want a just and fair world on the one hand, and then let things such as that go on under their noses? No, I will never understand that.

And once again, read the book I recommended in an earlier post. You will see how Terrorism does link with the fanaticism of fascism and other isms. It's not news to me and never has been. And if you believe sharia is not a "totalitarian" way of thinking, then I'd like to know what is.

Yes, I DARE YOU to read that book and still think this is benign enough to talk our way out of it instead of fighting for what we believe in.

it's hell. You forget, I've been there and done that, and not with video games either. But sometimes mankind does have to pick the lesser of two evils, and in this case I know which side I'm on.

I am thinking this afternoon of how far we have come since the depression and all the problems of the 50's and 60's with civil rights and integation.....What a fine country we really do have....Why do I say this? I remember when I was around 12 living with my grandmother who was a midwife.....she cared for mothers who could not afford a Dr......string was sterilized and kept in a glass bottle to tie the cord of the baby, lots of hot water was boiled on the old wood stove......the mother whiffed a little chloroform on a cotton ball for anesthesia! ......Now today.....I took Annie, my refugee friend from Liberia to a child birth class at a first rate birthing center.....I am her coach....I held her in my arms as she practiced breathing etc....she giggled a lot as did I.....we toured a fabulous family birth center where she will be giving birth....she has also had first rate care given to her by this center..... The America I love has made all this possible for Annie and has given me a chance to help her....... Oh yes....and when I could I checked in on the Missouri, Nebraska basketball game.....Not a pretty picture.

MOUNTAIN ROSE, you're quite a bit younger than I am. VE Day was May 8, 1945. World War II ended on September 2, 1945. That's 59 years ago. I was 16 years old. You must have been a very little child when you left Germany, weren't you?

Mal

Berlin, Germany, RIGHT SMACK IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ALL. Not only are some of the happenings forever etched into my brain, but I lived with the aftermath in my family for my whole life, times when my father was put into a "readjustment camp" after Hitler invaded Poland and my father said out loud that "the man will bring our destruction", and his BEST friends went to report him. So the brown shirts came the next day and picked him up. Three weeks of terror which he never spoke about even to the end of his life, no matter how often I asked. I remember being outside of Dresden on a hilltop when we heard the sirens and ran for cover, and the awfulness of what we saw when we came out of hiding. I remember the little man on the road who carried a suitcase and wouldn't let my mother help him because in the suitcase were the remains of his wife. I remember sitting behind a chair in our living room playing or reading and hearing the adults talking----about being forced at gunpoint to attend ralleys, about having their books gone through and everything that didn't fit into the fanatic scheme was eliminated; about their neigbords disappearing never to be heard from again, with a totally legal warrant too; I remember when they came around at gunpoint just before the end of the war and demanded that my mother work in a munitions factory while we were to be put into "kindergarten". That's when my mother left Berlin, walked all the way across Germany to get to the AMERICAN SIDE, because even though we were enemies, she knew (as my father had told her) that with the Americans she would find a haven and be treated fairly.

So when I hear Americans downgrading their own, I get a bit hot under the collar. They were WONDERFUL. They were FAIR. They helped REBUILD. They helped us get the democratic process going. And frankly, I have absolutely no respect for Germany now after they turned their face away from helping America with its present heavy load. I am ANGRY at them, because of all the people on the face of the earth who ought to KNOW, it is they.

I have written down all my war memories, and all the memories of all the things I heard afterwards whenever the adults got together. Yes, it was awful. It was horrible. I lost half my family in that war. Yet it had to be done in order to rid ourselves of that MONSTER IN OUR MIDST. And Terrorism is simply another spawn of that SAME MONSTER with its hatred of the Jews.

I feel sorry for anyone who refuses to see that---but so be it. History will, in the end, tell the tale once again that "We will have peace in our time." is wishful thinking.

I was severely castigated by one of the "liberals" who told me that I should get my jackboots on. There's empathy for you. I guess in her mind it was justice. And I'm just baffled, truly baffled.

I don't like it either, MOUNTAIN ROSE, when an American or anyone else, including people in political office, try to pull my country down.

Mal

Such a moving post, Moutain Rose. I remember seeing a movie of a little girl running for a train in England when I was very young. It was one of our war films and that scene has stayed with me all my life. One day my mother saw me crying and asked what was the matter. I said I wanted to go to Britain. She couldn't figure out why but I think it had something to do with the pathos of that film. Bombs were dropping and this little girl was looking for her parents.

I don't know if we'll have peace in our time but I can HOPE so. It is the only way to go. World Peace has to be our goal. Hope can't disappear and we may have to go through hell to get there, but we have to abolish war on this earth altogether. Anyway, that's how I feel. Linda

I am so impressed with all of the posts here. Just reading them proves that we are not an apathetic society that prefers to hide our heads in the sand. We do care and do have knowledge of what is happening in today's world. One thing that was brought up that I had absolutely no awareness of was the fact the we still have troops in 167 countries. I'd really like to know more. What are the reasons for this long term occupation? I know about Germany because Weisenbon(miss spelled)was wheremy nephew was sent on his way to Afghanistan. But how about the other countries?

Marge

I just got home. Here are some of my reactions to your heart-felt comments.
Anna:-You stopped participating in Story of Civilization (Sumeria, Babylonia, Ancient Egypt, Judea, Persia, China, Korea, Japan, Ancient Greece and now the Roman Empire) because you realized there was no solution to war, inhumane treatment,cruelty, torture, and depravity. So you return to the present era and what have you found?--war, inhumane tratment, cruelty, and on and on and on. And your answer to Studs' request for Activism? Go to bed and pull the covers over your head. I don't think that is the behavior being shown by the various people in Studs' book. Their Hope never died. Has yours?
Linda, I will try to give you that link again. You say we are into Empire. I can't say that what I am seeing is a replica of the Roman Empire but I must admit that I see a man in the Oval Office who, despite his self-description, has very little compassion. And have you listened to Rumsfeld recently? Now there is a man who could easily become a dictator if it were not for the Constitution. And even the Constitution will be meaningless if there are no cries of rebellion by our citizens. We are entitled to rebel, you know, so long as there is no removal of the government representatives by force. As for your comment thatreading these postings is like reading the book -- that is why the forum The Story of Civilization is so popular. People share their personal thoughts even as they follow the book.
Admiral LaRoque, as quoted by Mal says:-"It's not Hope that's going to bring it about. It's going to be intelligent action. Is everyone here lethargic -- including me? Only talking the talk?
Yes, Anna, I and millions of other usually peaceful citizens were indeed "killing machines." Did you watch any of us practicing putting bayonets on the end of our rifles and jabbing them into bags the size of human beings? We tried not to act like that when we returned so our families would accept us. Some of us were not able to stop and are now in mental wards of Veterans Hospitals.
Nanaleni:-You used to march and hold signs. Now you donate and sign petitions. Now that sounds like what Studs has in mind. That's doing something. Some people call you unpatriotic. They labeled Tom Paine that too and a few of our Founders.
Eloise:-I agree that most young people don't understand what Death is truly is and base their concept on what they see on video games. Those of us who have been close to violent death know that there is a smell! a stench! You don't get that in a video game. You feel, however, that all this war and other violence is going to pass and that history is a cycle. World War I ended two years before I was born -- then a mere 20 years later came World War II -- then came the Cold War, no battles but plenty of weapons and anxiety -- then came the Vietnam War with all its terrible casualities -- then came the Persian Gulf War -- now the Iraqi War. War and peace and war and peace and war and peace and. . . . Durant mentioned that war has its benefits. I'll post that if I can find the quote.
Thank you, Mountain Rose, for sharing those terrible memories with us. I don't think you will be "castigated" in this discussion group. If you are somewhere else, please don't label that person a "liberal" or give him/her any other label for that matter except that of being a non-thinking person.

Robby

MountainRose; how heart wrenching this is. I had a Jewish friend who was born in Poland and when the SS came to her house to bring her father and mother, she escaped somehow. She worked in Berlin during the war and nobody ever found out she was Jewish. How horrible what you went through. I just want to say that we are not indifferent to a monster like Saddam, as I seem to understand from a post, what people are against is "WAR" in any shape or form. I am not saying that he should have stayed in power either. There are several dictators in the world right now. What do you think should be done about them short of going to war? Try to reason with them? Threaten them? Sanctions? What?

Eloïse

Mountain Rose it may late in coming but Welcome to America!

War to me is stupid, uncaring and very unfilling as it destroys many young men and woman who may have become one of humanities greatest leaders. But anyone who believes in PEACE must know there is and there will be Peace but to get obtain that elusive PEACE among all men, humanity must get rid of those who use terror and fear. And as for fighting an "ISM" which has been tacted to words that instill fear Can anyone come up with a better IDEA with which to fight it without going to war?

Linda, this is the LINK to the article about assassinations of the professional class in Iraq.

Robby

That is a metaphor for my despair that I will never see an end to war. You yourself believe war will never end. Doesnt that give you pain? It breaks my heart.I have mentioned the things I have done for the causes I believe in..because they are not others causes makes mine no less than the causes they expouse. Yes I am well aware how our military men are trained..to kill when necessary but there are many and you know this as well as I that are trained to kill regardless. From the books I have read of Hitler's Germany...they were trained not with bags stuffed with rags or cotton but on real people.

The term HOLY WAR is not mine but what terrorists call something like 9/11 or the attack on the Cole or the attack on our Embassy...HOLY WAR as I understand they understand it ..is destroying everything we stand for. It is hard for me to understand people here that claim to be for women's rights to feel it is somehow all right for a women in many countries to be denied even basic needs. The right to education, to practice medicine, to be denied the right to health care since there is no woman who is allowed to practice health care, and since men there consider a woman unclean and cannot help her either. Is everything I have read by respected reporters a lie? Are women allowed to get an education and they dont know it? Are they allowed to be beaten if they show too much of thier face or if they should pick up thier garment and show a few inches of leg so they can avoid a mud puddle ? Are we reading the same magazines and news reports? Is it a lie that men in those countries are encouraged to attack the WTC and that they will be rewarded in Paradise with dancing women? Tell me what magazine to read...I subscribe to Time,. Newsweek, my daily paper locally , I read other newspapers on line and from both sides ..if these are lies where do I find the truth????

I would also like to say one of the wives of a good friend of ours was in Berlin when the Russians took it over ..she was 8 years old and she said and I have read it as well that no woman regardless of age was left unraped by the Russian soldiers. Is that true of the American soldiers and no one reports it? Yes I have read the stories of Americans who raped and murdered ..and also they were arrested and tried...did anyone try those Russian soldiers..? I am sorry ..this is a discussion...and we all have strong feelings. Just by being here we are all activists. All of us come from different backgrounds with different beliefs , my truth may not be your truth because we have seen different things and reacted to them differently..I respect your right to your strong feelings..anna

I was at the point where the Americans met the Russians as we approached each other. As a matter of fact, we were ordered to stay where we were to allow the Russians to capture some more land -- it was a political decision.
There were many cases where the Russians decided to take over a house as a headquarters, kicked the door in, ordered the residents to leave immediately, and -- yes -- there were rapes. I never saw one single case like that with the Americans. An officer would knock on the door, notify the residents that they had 24 hours to leave so that the Americans could take over the house. I know of no rapes in such situations.

Robby

I wish MAHLIA was here to post what's actually in the Qur'an. Much of what we read in certain magazines and newspapers about Islam is simply not true. Just as some journalists pick out only the extremes about the United States for their foreign newspapers, so our journalists pick out extremes about Middle Eastern countries to write about in their articles.

Come, MAHLIA, wherever you are.

Mal

Thanks for confirming you never saw any American rapes ..the ones I have mentioned were ones I have read of ..not in Berlin but other places..all of whom were arrested and tried...we dont as a populace condone rape..I dont know the law in other countries but I suspect that is not true world wide...anna

I laugh, for hope hath happy place with me, If my bark sinks, 'tis to another sea. - A Poet's Hope

Killing machines Do not care If it be man or beast Within it's path And when it tires Does not dream A fearful dream Does not wake And weep for its Grim chore Nor shed a tear When it is o'er.

anna alexander February 7, 2004©

If you want to know who caused the Iraq War, here is the ANSWER.

Robby

In the same chapter where we are now, Norman Lloyd, speaking of the FDR days says:-"In those days you were filled with hope. It's going to be better. We can make it better. Today, there is something else in the air. People are more cynical, feel more helpless. They don't believe something else will happen."
Do you folks feel helpless? Are you cynical?

Robby

Helpless ? Cynical ? Eyup! And more and more things are happening in the name of what? The Patriot Act ? Another word might be frightening !The following is what is happening right now!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=2&u=/ap/20040207/ap_on_re_us/activist_investigation

Notice the word "Activist" on the link.

I've told friends and family, "If I'm not home, check Gitmo!"

No indeed I am not helpless nor am I cynical....I remember how difficult things were over 60 years ago....My parents neither one graduated from high school....we had no electric lights or indoor plumbing, no car, medical care was a "for trade" kind of deal, we raised our own food..we worked hard and did not think of ourselves as being poor in any way.....my parents encouraged us to read, get an education, and to work hard.......I did all those things and have had a good life....According to the American Heritage Dictionary a cynic is a person who believes all persons are motivated by selfishness.... I do not believe this.....

According to the American Heritage Dictionary a cynic is a person who believes all persons are motivated by selfishness.... I do not believe this..... me either

Just received this link. Sort of puts things in perspective.

http://www.spacewander.com/USA/english.html

Hairy......thanks for that site! Just fantastic......It's all most more than I can comprehend......

Eugene Mc Carthy ring any warning bells.

Anneo

Hairy! Thanks for a great site!

Thanks for that site ,.is it okay for me to use the word AWESOME? anna

Linda:-Thank you for the space link. As you say, it puts things in perspective. The Roman Empire was not that long ago and whether I have oatmeal or eggs for breakfast really doesn't matter -- or whether my acquaintances are angry at me or not.
Anneo:-Eugene McCarthy lives just a few miles down the road from me.

Robby

How could anyone be angry at you?

Backing up to the chapter we didn't comment on, Arnold Sundgaard says:-That's what the WPA was all about, to give people hope. In some cases, to get them i nvolved, active. It didn't give them a hell of a lot of money, but it gave them the juice to go on."
Any depression era experiences here where you or your family lived on "hope?"

Robby

ANNEO, Eugene McCarthy is a fine man. I campaigned for him when he was running for president and was soundly reprimanded for putting a Eugene McCarthy bumper sticker on the family car by my staunchly Republican husband.

Maybe you mean Joe McCarthy? Now, he was a scary package. So was his sidekick, Roy Cohn. I remember watching those hearings on our little TV when my husband, our little boy and I were living in two rooms in what had been an Army barracks while he was going to graduate school at the University of Maryland. Attorney Joseph Welsh made such an impression on me that I'll never forget him.

ROBBY, there were times when hope was all my mother had to live on, along with the dry milk, a few carrots, an onion and a couple of potatoes that she got at the free food commissary in my hometown to feed her family. She made Poor Man's Soup out of them, and sang to us kids while she peeled the onion, tears running down her face. Poor Man's Soup is still one of my favorite meals.

Mal

Anyone misinterpreted my poem ..it was in defense of our military .. Machines dont care but humans do ..as Robby said some end up traumatized for life..My one brother had problems not because of what he did but because what was done to him in WWII ......by the other side...

ANNA, why did you find it necessary to defend the American military? There's not a single person here who doesn't support and respect our troops 100%. I didn't coin the phrase, "Killing Machine", I read it long ago, and have heard it and seen it numerous times since then.

There are some things about being in the service and fighting wars which servicemen and women don't talk about. Can't talk about is more like it because these events were so horrifying they can't bear to recall them. Maybe it would be better if they did tell us. Perhaps then we'd be more reluctant to sanction all the wars some of our leaders dream up and decide to foist on us, at the expense of the lives of brave young men and women who are only doing what they think is their duty and become targets of awful instruments of death.

Most Americans haven't the slightest idea of what war is really like. We've never seen one fought on our own land. I have friends in countries where they cannot open their door and leave their homes to go to the market to buy their food without risking their lives. I wonder if we'd think twice or even more than that about instigating wars if we lived under that kind of danger and stress?

Years ago when I was a professional musician, I often played the piano and sang for veterans at VA hospitals. They were the saddest, most heart-wrenching audiences I ever performed for. Experiencing that makes you think twice, too.

Mal

One of the remarks by Adolph Kiefer, a participant in the 1936 Berlin Olympics, quoted by Studs is:-"We have to find out what the key is for an understanding of all mankind. We've been doing it for thousands of years and still haven't come up with real answers."
Are we on a fruitless hunt here in this discussion group for "real answers" and should we give in to what are apparently the underlying "evil" traits of mankind? Or does Hope die last?

Robby

Here are the first words of an article by Adam Liptak in the Jan. 11 issue of the NY Times.

"Racial and religious hate speech is criminal in much of the world, but it flourishes in the United States. Even Saudi Arabia, for instance, has been signaling that it will cut back on the diplomatic visas it issues to militant Wahhabi clerics, who sometimes praise suicide attacks. But militant Wahhabism and other religious doctrines advocating violence are freely preached in the Unied States. It happens in mosques and churches, in schools and, especially, in prisons."

Robby

Mal you asked why I felt a need to defend the American service man because several posters spoke of training our service people to be "Killing MAchines" Sorry but I dont think the other sides are training theirs to be kind to our troops.This is from your post back some ways I copied and pasted it .....Soldiers are, and always have been trained as hating, killing machines. They have to be. The other side has been trained the same way. There may be new warfare technology, but the method of making a soldier remains the same -- kill, kill kill.

If I have misread someones post including yours..I apologize but several posts in that manner seemed to indicate that giving our service men and women proper training to be used when needed made them into killing machines...That is what my poem was saying..a machine doesnt care...and when the killing is through does not weep for what it had to do, or have nightmares about what was necessary and dont end up in Va Hospital wards.....At every base the wives clubs visited the Va Hospitals on a regular basis and the service men we visited were wounded souls.. after we had entered the doors would be locked and we had a number of attendents in case things got out of hand. They were always glad to see us because we were allowed to bring home made goodies and they had someone to talk to and listen to them. I agree they were some of the saddest people I ever knew...anna

When my brothers were in WWII and Viet Nam ( the younger ones) if we didnt hear from them on a regular basis our anxiety level was raised to Nth degree. Just because we havent had a war on American soil since the Civil War..doesnt mean the People whose sons, brothers, husbands and good friends served in those wars dont know what war is about. These people are wounded and hurt by war as much as the soldiers are.

When my husband was assigned to Germany in 51 there was still so much destruction from the war whole cities had not been rebuilt. Regardless of where we went we were not allowed in certain areas of the communities because the remains of bombed out buildings and unexploded bombs were everywhere. I have stood on a bridge and looked down on a whole city that was destroyed and wept..even wrote a poem about it...wars are fought by those with opposing beliefs and purposes. I dont think you have to be in a war to be wounded by it. Thank God all of my brothers returned safely from the wars they fought in but you just have to stand at THE WALL in DC or any of the other memorials to ( and there are 1000's over this land) and the people lined up to see it and weep there to know that plenty of AMERICANS KNOW WHAT WAR MEANS>>>anna

"Hatred paralyzes life; love releases it. Hatred confuses life; love harmonizes it. Hatred darkens life; love illumines it."

- - - Dr. Martin Luther King

"There's nothing in this world so sweet as love, And next to love the sweetest thing is hate."

- - - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Well, ANNA, there's only one thing I can do since I offend you so much without meaning to, and it seems so hard for you to understand what I've said with no inclination toward malice or intention to insult. I have two choices -- diseappear, or take my kind of Activism elsewhere.

Mal

There is NO offense as we sit around this table. We may disagree vehemently -- and hurrah for that! But offense? Offense is often in the eye of the beholder.
Now Hate? That's another story. Adolph Kiefer in a previous posting had some comments about that.

Robby

You have been in many discussions where I have as well..and you always add something special to them. I appreciate your comments but I also feel free to say mine. I hope you will stay the course..I am sure there will be areas we will agree...and can smile to think we also disagree. My home life as a child was such ..and even in my marriage and with my children..WE dont always agree but we still care and love each other..Allow me to love and care about you AND disagree when I must. anna

Actually I am laughing not at what has been discussed here but at my last post where I mentioned my family and I disagree but it doesnt prevent us from loving and caring about each other.

I was thinking of several times when my husband made a request I change in some way...He wanted to discuss "MY FAULTS" I said "YOU know you are not perfect either" and he held up his forefinger and said "NAME ONE FAULT" I looked at him and darn I couldnt think of one...SO I said THAT JUST GOES TO SHOW WHAT A PERFECT WIFE I AM>>I HAVE NOT ONLY FORGIVEN YOU YOUR FAULTS BUT I HAVE FORGOTTEN THEM" That cracked him up and we ended in a hug and a kiss.

So long distance Mal let us end up with a hug...at least,..anna

I keep thinking of that article about "Hate Speech" to which I referred. Adam Liptak, in that article, spoke of Justice Oliver Wendell Homes who wrote in 1919:-"I think we should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe and believe to be faught with death."
My understanding of that opinion is that the "American Way" is to accept Hate Speech -- not like it but accept it.
Then I think of those two "H's" -- Hope and Hate. Can they go together? Can we hope, not only that we live but hope that the person we hate dies?

Robby

I cant hope that someone I dislike dies...what I hope for is that hope will always be ours. I guess what I really hope is that someone who might well deserve my hate would realize before they died that what they did was wrong..and ask God for forgiveness...and for those that have been murdered , tortured and cruelly treated will have hope before death that there is a place better to which they go...The bottom line is I hope everyone could have a gentle departure..after I posted the above I realized I dont want you to think I am trying to portray myself as all sweetness light...for those who do cruel things to others I dont hope that they will die ..but live so they can remember every day what they did...dying is too good for those...death should bring peace to our life ( I KNOW I KNOW that isnt always so) and I guess I do hate what they did enough that peace is the last thing I hope for them ...at least for now..anna

Just as despair can come to one only from other human beings, hope, too, can be given to one only by other human beings. — Elie Weisel

The WPA and CCC was the only hope my family had during the depression.

My father worked on the local city park with the WPA and spent many months away from home in the CCC helping build a state park.

I was attending high school at the time and I worked 6 hours a month helping the janitor through the NYA (National Youth Administration)

The NYA also gave me some income as I worked my way through college.

I missed the first week of the discussion - no way I could cover more than 300 messages. I am overwhelmed with some of the experiences recounted here; I wish I had something profound to add, but I don't.

I do have a comment on hate speech; we all know what is being discussed and deplore it, but isn't protecting such what the first amendment is all about? I highly resent that on a recent visit by President Bush to Knoxville all protestors were herded into a so-called "free speech zone" where they were invisible and inaudible to the president. It would be easy to maintain that any opposition to the current government is hate speech (and in some cases that has actually been close to the truth ). I think this instance is exactly what our founding fathers had in mind when the first amendment was conceived.

Ursa Major (Mom Bear as you called yourself upon indicating your interest):-I was wondering where you were? So glad to see you finally arrived. You will fit right in. I never heard of a "free speech zone." What is the label for those outside of that zone?
However, make it a point to go to the start of the discussion and read my first three postings. These will give you an idea of how we work here.

Robby

Robby, go to Google and type in: president bush free speech zone

You'll find numerous references.

I did just that and am aghast!! As that person who was arrested said:-"I thought all of America was a free speech zone." I am beginning to understand what the people in Studs' book are saying. The person in this case was an Activist. They tried to herd him into this zone for a very innocuous sign. He refused. He was arrested. The local justice acquitted him. The President of the United States through his henchmen had him arrested for exerting the rights granted to him by the First Amendment.
The local police said they had no choice as they were told to do this by the Federal Marshals. The Emperor speaks! For being an Activist we can be placed in jail. Of course we can all be Activists at the polls in November. But have you been hearing that the so-called "secure" new electronic voting machines can be easily changed in whatever direction a hacker wishes?
"1984" came twenty years later.

Robby

Robby when we had a right wing govt in here people were beaten for protesting by the police. How the police treat protestors comes directly from Govt. I realised this long ago. When a centre left govt is in power peaceful protest does not meet with the same violence.

So let us all just complain and accept this. We are all too old to be Activists.

Robby

What ROBBY found when he did the search about Free Speech in this country is exactly what I have been talking about in earlier messages I've posted here.

Studs Terkel and I had a conversation in my head this afternoon, and he blasted me for being a quitter. "You'll never accomplish anything if you back down and walk away," he told me. If people accuse me of being somehow "Un-American" or "Unpatriotic" because of what I think and say (and they have), that's not enough reason for me to go and hide.

With no apologies from me any more, I'll tell you there are hundreds, probably thousands, of pages on the World Wide Web which are full of hate and comments, which if you are a thinking person, would make your hair curl. We have a tendency to go to websites which say what we want to hear, and don't examine others. Have you ever been to the Ku Klux Klan web pages? Have you ever read what's on militia or Neo-Nazi pages? Try it. You'll be surprised.

There is a Stop The Hate campaign on the internet and web, and my next post will give you a link to it and some quotations you might be interested in. Where did the Golden Rule come from? Do you really know?

Mal

See below. This came from STOP THE HATE http://stop-the-hate.org

Baha'i Faith:
"Blessed is he who preferreth his brother before himself."

Buddhism:
"Hurt not others in that you yourself would find hurtful." --Udana-Varga 5:18

Christianity
"As you wish that men would do to you, do so to them -- Luke 6:31

Confucianism:
what you would not have them do unto you." --Analects 15:23

Hinduism
"Do naught until others which would cause you pain if done to you. -- Mehabarata

Islam:
"No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself."

Judaism
"That which is hateful unto you, do not impose on others -- Talmud, Shabbat 31a

Sikhism:
"As thou deemest thyself, so deem others."

Taoism:
Regard your neighbor's gain as your gain and your neighbor's losee as your own loss -- T'ai Shang Kan Ying Pien

Wicca:
"An ye harm none, do what ye will." --Wiccan Rede

Zoroastrianism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing until another whatsoever is not good for itself." Dadistan-i-dink 945

ARYAN UNITY, Join the White Nationalist Party

FIERY CROSS ( KU KLUX KLAN )

AMERICAN NAZI PARTY

Yesterday I did my own little thing to try and make a difference. There is dissension here regarding an issue with our indigenous people. The leader of the opposition ( far right) made a very provocative speech in order to divide the nation to further his party. I wrote to our largest Northland tribes website asking them to invite pakeha ( whites) on to the Marae and explain their concerns on this issue ( an issue I agree with) and not to let Politicans who are set on dividing to rule get their way.

Carolyn

TEACHING TOLERANCE

ABOUT TEACHING TOLERANCE

FIGHT HATE AND PROMOTE TOLERANCE

RESPOND TO PROBLEMS

Censorship of free speech, other than that which presents an imminent danger to others, is the quickest way to provide a fertile ground for dictatorship. Censorship and the creation of "free speech zones" can lead to horrors like the shootings at Kent State. Robby is correct--in the U.S., we don't have to like what everyone says, but we do have to defend their right to say it.

President Bush free speech zone
Aviaqua, I am from the Pittsburgh area and I remember when that incident happened. It received quite a bit of attention from all the local newspapers and local TV channels.

Bill H

The First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States declares that "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech." What does and should this mean? Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, in his famous Abrams v. United States (1919) dissenting opinion, began what may be the single most poetic paragraph ever written by a Supreme Court justice on the meaning of freedom of speech. Here is that improbable opening line: "Persecution for the expression of opinions seems to me perfectly logical." What could Holmes have been thinking?

Perhaps Holmes was expressing the view that all of us, individually and collectively, have within us a kind of censorship-impulse. Governments are especially prone to censor. As Holmes went on to put it: "If you have no doubt of your premises or your power and want a certain result with all your heart you naturally express your wishes in law and sweep away all opposition." Censorship is thus a kind of social instinct. As caring and responsible citizens of society, especially good and decent citizens of a good and decent society, we are likely to want many results with all our hearts. We want security, we want freedom from fear, we want order, civility, racial and religious tolerance, we want the well-being of our children. We want these things with all our hearts, and when others express opinions that seem to threaten these aspirations, who can blame us for being tempted to express our wishes in law and sweep away the opposition? It is perfectly logical. And that is what, at bottom, freedom of speech is all about.

By Rodney Smolla Dean, University of Richmond School of Law

I've heard of those free speech zones and how the rabble are cordoned off so the president cannot see or hear them. HOWEVER, in my home town there was no such thing. We had three blocks of labor union workers letting themselves be seen and heard yelling. Bush was there and couldn't help but see and hear it all. Hee Hee

Contrary to popular opinion, just because I support this particular war does not make me either a republican or a right-wing anything, or even a follower of Bush. I support this war for ideological reasons. As a matter of fact, I consider myself a centrist with very socialist leanings in some places. I have no problems with communism either--- in its ideal state, and though I understood the fear in the U.S. of the bolshevik sort of communism, I don't understant the sort of paranoid fear that turned into the whole McCarthy era. My father always told me, and I believed him, that communism would die of its own accord just because it was so against human incentive, which is exactly what happened. Many "isms" are simply economic systems with some ideology of whatever stripe tacked on.

However, what I do have a great problem with is any sort ot TOTALITARIANISM. And that comes in many disguises. In our lifetime we have seen it with the mask communism and fascism. In the past we have seen it under "the divine right of kings" and the Catholic Church (and I'm a Catholic and I still say that!), and now we are seeing it behind the mask of the Muslim religion. I am NOT saying that Islam is at fault. Islam has as far as history goes, actually been one of the most tolerant religions. What I am saying is that the fundamentalist part of Islam has kidnapped the religion and turned it into a wish for TOTALITARIANISM with its attacks of other countries and suicide missions and ugly rhetoric. Fundamentalist Christianity uses many of the same tactics.

And what I am also saying is that, unless we fight that TOTALITARIANISM, no matter what sort of mask it wears, we can kiss our freedoms good bye. And yes, I think capitalism can also hide TOTALITARIANISM, as is presented to us in the Patriot Act.

As for me, I will fight totalitarianism no matter what sort of pretty embroidery it comes under, with my last breath and my last dollar. Totalitarianism kills every human incentive, every human freedom, and turns us into slaves, and that is NOT why my family immigrated to the U.S.---to become slaves to anyone, not even to capitalism.

I have once more been reading much and the latest book is one called, "Passionate Declarations" by Howard Zinn. While I agree with much of what Mr. Zinn says, I would love to challenge him about other things he says. I consider him almost an anarchist in SOME areas, and certainly he admits to being a socialist and VERY liberal. He makes some awfully good points about the government of the U.S., even explaining how the system of checks and balances is undermined despite what the Constitution intends. I agree with him.

I've often wondered about the average voter though, and I believe that many, many people in the U.S. do not use the ballot box because of a sort of pessimism and hopelessness. Here is what Mr. Zinn says about that:

"No representative can adequately represent another's needs; the representative tends to become a member of a special elite; he has privileges that weaken his sense of concern over his constituent's grievances. The anger of the aggrieved loses force as it is filtered through the representative system. The elected official develops an expertise that tends towards its own perpetuation. Representatives spend more time with one another than with their constituents, become an exclusive club, and develop what Robert Michels called 'a mutual insurance contract' against the rest of society.

We can see the difficulties in the U.S. which has one of the most praised systems of representative government in the world. People have the right to vote, but the choices before them are so limited, they see so little difference between the candidates, they so despair of their vote having any meaning, or they are so alienated from society in general because of their own misery that roughly 50% of those eligible to vote do not vote in presidential elections and over 60% do not vote in local elections."

How do you feel about that statement?

We have had an English author and activist just saying the same thing on our National radio as the previous poster. He says in Britain now people are apathetic they see little difference between the two major parties and he thinks the last election which was poorly supported by voters showed this. He thinks the next one will be much the same!

Anyone we know, Kiwi Lady? I've read some of John Pilger - not sure where he is these days. I like his written works.

interesting to me on a personal basis: "I was at the point where the Americans met the Russians as we approached each other. As a matter of fact, we were ordered to stay where we were to allow the Russians to capture some more land -- it was a political decision."

I REMEMBER THAT! My mother had walked across Germany to get to the American side, had reached it, and because of hunger, cold, and illness broke down as soon as she stepped over the line of "no-man's land" into the American side. I remember being in a small room with her which had been assigned to her in the town where she broke down, and wondering if she was alive. When she finally got up and looked out the window she began to sob. I couldn't understand it, but I do remember the impact it had on me because it was the only time I ever saw my mother cry like that. She told me later it was because by the time she was strong enough to look outside, the Americans had retreated, and what she saw out there was an ocean of Russian tanks. It was sort of the last straw for her.

Yes, the Russians were BRUTAL---not the officers who tended to be more educated and civilized, but the common soldier. The horror stories I could tell would make your hair curl, some of which I witnessed.

The American GIs were by and large WONDERFUL. Sure, in any group of people, especially young males, you will get some who feel their oats and get out of line, but mostly they didn't. The English were very civilized also. The French were NOT. I still love those AMERICAN GI's that I met, even if I never knew their names. And when I see pictures of Iraqi children following them around like heroes, I KNOW that feeling!

Robbie, I am totally amazed that you have never heard of the Free Speech Zone . There is hardly a town where this is not the practice when George Bush comes to a town.

There is a true story of an elderly couple who went to a local baseball game. Somehow, I'm thinking that Mr. Bush was throwing the first pitch. All the people who had the right kind sign or banner held them up and waved them. The little old couple had the wrong kind of sign, one that was critical of Bush and were escorted out of the stadium. "Activism" is a dirty word as we discovered yesterday when four people at Drake University were arrested for protesting.

If Studs was younger than 91, he would be out on his soapbox criticizing people or policies.There is a famous square (of course, I've forgotten the name) where soap box oratory went on every day. Noone was deemed "unpatriotic" or "unAmerican" for disagreeing with the status quo...

Last night Carol Mosely Braun was on the Bill Maher Show on HBO. She said we are living through "Orwellian" times,

We had our people cordonned off and they did the same in Great Britain, most unpopular

"There are several dictators in the world right now. What do you think should be done about them short of going to war? Try to reason with them? Threaten them? Sanctions? What? " -- Most of the time reasoning does not work with a dictator. Sure, he may promise you whatever you wish to hear, and then do exactly as he pleases. Threat does work sometimes IF HE FEELS YOU MEAN IT; and if he feels you don't, then he laughs at you behind your back. That's exactly what some middle east leaders such as bin Ladin are doing and so did Hussein. They don't think we have the stomach for sacrifice, and that makes them bold. Even tyrants I've known in my personal life act that way. It's a characteristic of a tyrant. Sanctions may or may not work, but they need to be tried. Trouble is that sanctions often hurt those who are not responsible for the decisions, and so it's a dilemma.

Personally I think that as much effort as is possible needs to be made on the diplomatic side, but with our eyes wide open at all times. Most diplomacy is, I think, also done in back rooms and most of the time the public hasn't a clue what's happening behind the scenes, which is also a dilemma in a free society. And when diplomacy doesn't work, well, what other option is there?

The U.N. has, at least to me, proven it is worthless. Even with Kosovo it was worthless and the fighting to bring back some sort of peace and protection for the minority MUSLIMS had to be done under the auspices of NATO. I had great hope in the U.N. at one time, but alas, it has become like most other human institutions, diplomats who are into looking natty, lots of talk but no consensus and a lot of hand wringing and ego gratification.

The U.N. could have kept us out of Iraq if they had been doing their job. After the first Gulf War all we had was a "cease fire" with Iraq. No one ever ended that war, but Bush Sr. stepped back and kept his promise to let the U.N. do what we all needed to do, and they didn't do it. So this is the result, sad to say.

As far as another point having been made about U.S. soldiers in so many other countries, most of them are there because of agreements for strategic bases, sometimes we have been ASKED to be there for protection and security, and when the U.N. doesn't do its job, as it didn't in Kosovo either, we step in to get it done even if we bypass the U.N. and use NATO. Maybe the one mistake that Mr. Bush made in this war was not doing it under the auspices of NATO, but alas, the French have their own empire dreams and will nix most things we feel are necessary, and so did Germany (much to my chagrin). Poland certainly sent troops. The Poles know exactly what we are up against. And thank God for England and Tony Blair's stand on this.

Even now, instead of trying to build an empire, the U.S. is cooperating with the likes of the U.N. even though the U.N. was of no help when we really needed them. To me that says a lot about our intentions there and our not wanting to have ultimate control in Iraq at all.

Another reason for no more wars:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/print.php?sid=9720

ROSE: I admire you for sticking up for your beliefs when you are a minority. That is just what we need in this forum.

If we could end dictatorships and give all the people of the world the same rights that we have, I would be first in line. But we don't know how!!! No one does. To think that we could convert a country to democracy by sending in troops makes no sense. Yes, we got rid of Saddam Husein, thank goodness. But there is no way of insuring that the next leader, or the one fter that won't be just as bad.

Europe after WWII was different. These were countries that had been democracies and had been taken over by a tyrant. They needed help restoring and building, but the basis for democracy was already there. The US record in the rest of the world has been different: of all the countries we have been listing where the US has intervened, how many are democracies? Countrie that are trying on their qwn to become more democratic (like Russia) are having a very hard time.

I am not a historian: I hope some historians will come in here and talk to this point.

Mountain Rose - Who says who is a dictator and who is not? Should we say GWB is a dictator and come and bomb the heck out of the USA and topple the administration! Unless like Hitler a country is invading other countries we have no right to step in. The USA has supported dicatators in the past when it suited them for trade reasons or suited them to have bases in that country. I give you Indonesia and the Marcos!

I have voted in every Presidential election since I was 21 years old, including absentee ballots when I was overseas in the Army. I most certainly will vote this November.
Is there anyone here who will NOT vote this November?

Robby

You can be sure I will vote, ROBBY.

I'm really surprised that no one has responded to the articles I linked about hate groups, stopping the hate in the world, and Teaching Tolerance. Teaching Tolerance offers ways in which we can spread true information and do our part to educate people and give them the truth about segments of society people love to hate.

Voting next November is only one of the ways in which we can do something and make our voices heard, you know. It does absolutely no good to come in here and post, or chat over the fence with our neighbor or the guys at the Senior Center, unless we back up what we believe with some kind of action, action that requires us to go no farther away than the walk from our recliners to our computers.

Age and disability are no excuse when people have computers. Look at me, for example. I seldom ever get out of the house because of a disability, yet I can truthfully call myself an activist because I act through this medium. Don't be a sedentary silent senior, do something. Make your presence known and your voice heard.

I know we're not up to the chapter written by Tom Hayden, who like Studs has been an activist all of his life, but I want to post here this morning something he wrote at the end of his piece. He says:

"Then you get beyond that into what in this society is called old age, but it's the only opportunity you'll have for wisdom. You're no longer really needed as mayor, because there's always some guy knocking at the door who wants to replace you, and the end is coming. So this is the last stage. You know what that is? To be an elder. The problem with the sixties, as I look back, was a problem of the elders. It was always defined as a problem of youth, a crisis of youth. But really, that was how the elders defined it. The elders missed the point entirely. The real problem was that the elders weren't there. I live now with one goal: to try to learn to be the kind of elder who was missing when I was a kid."

Don't be among the "missing". Shout loud and clear that you're here and someone to be reckoned with, and that your voice really does count.

Mal

Mal...thank you posting those links to "hate groups"...I didn't need to go there....I know very well that they exist...One of the men in my church just wrote his thesis on the the White Aryan group which we have down in southern Missouri....not a pretty picture.... I think many people don't vote due to apathy and "I don't care" attitude.....they do not read or keep up with any current events..... Could be less interested...... and it is not because they are opressed, poor, can't read etc.....they don't give a damn about politics....

TIGERLILEY, I wonder if anyone ever asked those people if they cared about what happens to themselves and their families?

Mal I don't think those folks think that way....

But how about US!! Is there anyone here who does NOT intend to vote? What if the weather is very bad? What if the car doesn't start? What if we are not feeling well? We all know how close the last election was.

Robby

Robby you ask if anyone here is intending not to vote..for me only death will stay my hand from casting my ballot. It is where my opinion counts. It may not be on the winning side..but I wont whine..just bide my time until I can vote again....I also support whatever candidate I think is the right one with my contributions of money and time....and read everything I can ..reports pro and con...even if there were a PERFECT candidate there would be naysayers..anna

Yes, I've voted in every election since I turned 21. I can't think of any reason other than ill health that would prevent me from getting to the Fairgrounds where my precinct votes. I've always had the feeling that politicians really don't want everyone eligible to vote to do so or they'd have long ago made it more convenient. Voting on a working day doesn't seem "voter-friendly." Some of our counties have gone to "satellite voting" which is essentially absentee voting by setting up voting places at malls/grocery stores, etc. and allowing people to vote an absentee ballot there. Some politicians have screamed bloody murder and have tried to stop it by saying only people who are ill or who will be out of town on election day should be allowed to vote absentee. Convenience shouldn't count.

That sounds to me as if the politican doesn't want all who can vote to do so. I wonder why???

jane

ROBBY, the answers to your questions are simple. Do as many, many people in SeniorNet and I do. Either call or get online and request an Absentee Ballot.

Mal

It would be unthinkable for me not to vote......

Here is a VERY ENLIGHTENING ARTICLE on why so many Americans do not vote.

Robby

I always vote and if I could vote in the US, I would !!!

Not voting could be a sign that people are happy about one party or the other because we live in a two party society it seems and those who don't vote don't perceive the difference between the two. I am just guessing.

In Canada, our life was not different if the Liberals or the Conservatives were in power. But at the present time, the Liberals are in Ottawa, and the Liberals in Quebec too. That is not too good because they don't have a strong opposition. Still, I am happy about the fact that the Separatist party is no longer in power after 20 years. We can breathe easier in Quebec now.

Eloïse

"I tried not to lose hope thinking they would eventually find me. I fell asleep from time to time." Muhammet Kalem, a teen from Turkey, on being rescued from the rubble after being trapped for six days.

I vote every election. One of the first things I did when I moved to VA was to register.

Sometimes I have other feeling when it appears there are two losers running. Then it is vote for the lesser of two evils.

Ray:-Do you see any "evil" in any one of these nominees? I hesitate to use the term "evil" when referring to any human being but as I watch my civil rights and other rights guaranteed to me by MY Constitution being eroded (if that is the proper word), I consider such actions EVIL.

Robby

I have voted every year except for one, when I was so disgusted with what was on offer I did not want to vote for any of the candidates. I feel if I don't have my say at the ballot box I have no right to grumble if things don't go my way.

Look what this 73-year-old man is doing. Now that is ACTIVISM!!

Robby

I really do not know what to call the administration which inhabits the White House.

Stupid would probably be a better term, with evil as a result.

There has been little thought toward preserving the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

Yep, include freedom of religion along with the other freedoms,liberty and justice for ALL.

I understand how Mr. Zinn feels. William Frist is my senator, and he no more represents me than the Pope (I am an Episcopalian). Frist is senator for the HMOs; his fortune is from Hospital Coorp. of America.

However, I will continue to vote; I cast my first ballot for Dwight Eisenhower in 1955. I called myself a republican until we got Reagan in the White House; now I only answer to mugwump.

You better keep your eye on Frist, Ursa Major. He has his eye on the White House.
So are we just going to turn into a political discussion or are we going to learn how to be Activists and stop the direction in which this nation is going.
Are we helpless?,

Robby

I am convinced that Studs never meant for his book to be "read." He meant for it to be STUDIED!! It is a Workbook. Think about it -- we are reading about one person after another after another. And the message is always the same. DO NOT LET HOPE DIE!! Followed by DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!
How does that WWII song go? "Praise the Lord but pass the ammunition." What are we doing here -- "reading" the book and wringing our hands? If so, then we are not like one single person in his book. Read carefully that paragraph on the bottom of Page 44. Admiral LaRoque says:-
"I could explain the popularity of George Bush because, see, we were born in war in this country in the revolution against England. Then we declared war in 1812 against the British.
"In 1846, we declared war against Mexico. Then in 1860 to '65, we fought among ourselves. For the next thirty years, we fought the Indians,until 1898, when we declared war on Spain.
"Then we got in World War One and World War Two, Korea, Vietnam, and then against Iraq. In the meantime, we have fought a lot of minor wars.
"Americans have become comfortable with war. It's a spectator sport for us on television. 9/11 was disasters, devastating, nasty, terrible things, acts that could only be explained as terrorist.
"But we exaggerate the efforts of Osama bin Laden when we call it a war and do the things we're doing now to wage war against him.
"When the Murrah Building was devastated in Oklahoma City, it was one of our own people. We didn't call it an invasion. We didn't declare war.
"But if you're the president and you're looking for a way to electrify the American public and ensure your ability to do whatever you darn please in national and international affairs, declare those 9/11 events as a war and you can probably ride that through to reelection.
"Americans are comfortable with war. They want the excitement and the pleasure of fighting a war, as long as we go somewhere else."
And that from an Admiral!! We always have to go somewhere else and conquer somebody. Those of us sitting around this table (where I see very little table pounding) who participate in The Story of Civilization and are currently reading about the Roman Empire know exactly what the good Admiral is talking about.
So let's STUDY THIS BOOK.
If not, as "old" as we are, we may see some valuable "rights" taken away from us in our lifetime.
Robby

I have to say the Bush regime remind me very much of the ancient Roman politicians and the fascination with war by many Americans appalls me.

It appalls me, too, CAROLYN.

Mal

I abhor WAR, to me it is stupid. But one thing I do believe in is HOPE. Hope that one day Humanity will overcome the inevitable genocide of humanity because of an individual craving for ultimate power and greed.

If I have to fight to keep my FREEDOM of CHOICE than so be it. I detest BULLIES and won't back down.

Many small nations think the Bush regime ARE bullies. That lot scare the pants off me!

Those nations are right. They want to rule the world. The Roman Empire looks small compared with they have in their sites. We have to stop these men and women who want to be the new rulers of the entire world and outer space I would suspect, too. Then they can put weapons on Mars and aim them wherever they wish. Bizarre world we have become. And they do all of this under the guise of Christianity. No matter what they do, it reeks of insanity or tyranny.

Linda

Weren't the Gray Panthers rather successful with some Senior problems a few years ago? How about marching on Washington to take back our country and hollar a lot about Senior Issues as well? There could be speakers who talk about the Consitution, the Bill of Rights, Caring for the poor, needy, homeless, elderly, etc. etc. How about each of us write to our local newpapers - let's take up about 5 issues and hit them hard and see what happens. Then go, go, go full throttle from there.

I just went back and checked today's Email. I receive updates all the time. I sign petitions if I'm asked.

1)FAIR 2)The Daily Mislead 3)Alternet 4)Mother Jones

5)Working Families 6)Move On 7)Your Vote Matters

"Working Families" has a terrible story about the workers who print the IKEA catalogues. They are trying to unionize and are hitting a stone wall.

There is much we can do right here at our computers. But we have to want to do it.

Well I for one do not agree with most of the comments regarding the present administration....I do not think the men running this country are evil in any way.... They are of course pro business but that does not make them evil....I guess it does in some of your eyes......I do know this from reading the posts.....no one is going to change anyone's minds politically on this discussion....seems we are pretty set in our ways..... I am not fearful of the Patriot Act, it is my understanding that is to be reviewed on a regular basis and so far I have not noticed any of my rights being eroded...... I would be interested to read about it if any of yours have.......

Do you think many of us understand that we the US are considered the bullies? We march in with loaded guns to "save" these countries and proceed to enlighten them as to how OUR way of life will liberate them from all their problems? And then we stay years ( as in 167 countries. Just in case they don't get it right) In my mind, I'm having a hard time justifying this so therefore can somewhat empathize with those countries who seem to be ungrateful to us.

I too have voted in all of the elections since day one and I have also worked at the polls as a judge. I for one, did not laugh at the write in vote for Mickey Mouse, as many did. I felt I understood that the voter was voicing an opinion in the only way he knew how. The American thread woven through out this book, I think, is the hope that weaves and never leaves. Excuse me for sounding corny.

We are a country of 4,000,000 million souls- group of tiny islands and yes we have been the target of the Reagan Admin bully boy tactics.

Our country is totally nuclear free - this is a vote made by almost 70% of the voting electorate and has not changed. We were shut out of the American economy and out of ANZUS because we would not allow nuclear powered ships into our ports. The US Navy had a policy of neither confirm nor deny. We would have welcomed ships which were not nuclear powered but it was all or everything as far as Reagan went. The Admin sent us to Coventry.

We have a nuclear free zone around our country to this day.

Linda (Hairy):-Senior Net, as an organization, is not allowed to take an Activist stand but certainly individuals here can. You suggest taking up five issues. How would you prioritize them?
Nanaleni:-What specific suggestions do you have regarding your thought of doing something "right at our computers."
Tigerliley:-You are not fearful of the Patriot Act and "have not noticed any of your rights being eroded." Let me check out some specifics and others here may do the same.

Robby

Click HERE to see the names of the various subsections of the "Patriot Act." Scanning these may help some of us to see the portions that concern us.

Robby

Tigerliley:--Click HERE to learn about one part of the "Patriot Act" which concerns the daylights out of me!!
Consider the following:-
"The Act greatly expands the use of 'roving wiretaps.' This means that a wiretap order targeted to a person is no longer confined to a particular computer or telephone. Instead, it may 'rove' wherever the target goes, which may include library computers."
"The standards for courts to approve surveillance of foreign intelligence gathering are far less demanding than those required for approval of a criminal wiretap, which requires a showing of probable cause."
"The upshot is that there will be a great many more surveillance orders, everywhere in the country, and in turn there will be more requests for library records, including internet use records."
"The person could be someone using the internet in a library, particularly someone who wishes to remain anonymous. The FBI (or others) will want to see a library record of who was using the library's terminal(s) at a particular date and time. If the library keeps sign-up records, law enforcement will want to see these records."
"It is possible that the FBI will approach the library and ask to place software on library servers."
"The Act states that the FBI may apply for an order requiring the 'production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a U.S. person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment."
Doesn't all that bother you, Tigerliley?

Robby

I've heard that they can check on what books you've bought, too. I usually pay cash, so I don't think that would work.I don't think we should think of ourselves as terrorists however.

A man was wearing an anti war t-shirt in a Mall and was taken from his child and put in jail. Is that what this is all about?

I've been away for one week and I return with over 400+ posts.

As far as voting goes, Robbie? Are they going to allow us to vote once again here in sunny Florida????

The Chad(ster)

Linda/Hairy...

Do you have a link, perhaps, to the story "A man was wearing an anti war t-shirt in a Mall and was taken from his child and put in jail", please. I'd not heard of that and would like to read about it.

60 year old grandfather arrested at mall for wearing anti-war T shirt

I think the action by security or whoever it was at the Mall was terrible. It would not happen here.

Look in your history book--it always happens "HERE" when freedom, liberty and justice for ALL disappear.

So many acts of violence happen because people rise up in protest.

Look no further than our own Revolutionary War which brought about the birth of a constitutional democracy. Look no further than the Civil War which, in part, was over freedom of the individual, no matter what his skin color or place of origin.

We now also have an ongoing battle over freedom of religion and belief.

The only way to have freedom is to get as close to chaos as possible without losing CONTROL.

In the end, we either learn to row our boat and steer it TOGETHER or we will lose our basic freedoms that we fought for and treasure.

Thank you for that link, Mal. Many of you folks have Senior Net friends who are not part of this discussion group. May I suggest that you contact them, either by email or in one of the other forums, letting them know what is happening in our nation? Tell them the story of the grandfather and other incidents you may know.
Be an Activist!

Robby

I am so surprised about all this. I wonder if in Canada we will be arrested for wearing a T-shirt with the picture of a baby on it. How ridiculous. The Patriot Act sounds like if half the country is going to be hired to watch over the other half of the country. How can they do that? How much will it cost? Who will be chosen as policemen/women? How can they be sure that the detective is not or cannot be bribed?

It is mind boggling to think that 100,000 telephone conversations a day could be tapped. Or will they watch only certain people, of certain origins, or certain education, who eat certain food?

This reminds me of Germany and WW11.

Eloïse

PS, you bet your boots Robby that I will tell this at every opportunity I get.

In Studs' book, Admiral LaRoque, now retired and the founder and director of the Center for Defense Information says:-"We keep an eye on Pentagon spending. We're a group of retired military officers, trying to hold down the growing influence of the military and industry so that citizens can have a bigger say."
Are you watching the Pentagon carefully? Are you watching the industries that fuel our military actions? Are you listening to Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Wolfowitz?

Robby

This reminds me of the McCarthy era. My brother-in-law was in graduate school at Ohio State University in Columbus. He and a tenured professor and some other graduate students had a less narrow view of the world and our nation than some in our government and the country did at the time. They invited a man who shared this wider, more circumspect view to speak to students and the public. Unknown to them they were being watched by the university and certain government officials because of suspicions of unproven disloyalty to the United States.

Because the lecturer had been "blacklisted" he was not allowed to speak on campus, so the lecture was held at the Universalist-Unitarian church. The result of all this was that the professor's tenure was taken away from him, and my brother-in-law was told the university would not grant him the Ph.D. degree he had worked so hard for so many years to obtain. This mark on him meant that other universities would not hire him when he applied for a job.

My brother-in-law was so upset and disgusted by what was going on in this country that he moved himself, his wife and his three children to New Zealand. When the witch-hunt fever died down, my brother-in-law and his family returned to the States; he was awarded his degree, and he was hired by one of the colleges of the State University of New York system, where, as a professor, he taught until he retired.

There was no Patriot Act then, but the temper of the country was the same. Surveillance of innocent people who were in any way suspected to be enemies of the country, was going on all the time. The effect was that they lost their jobs and had trouble finding work at all. It was a terrible, terrible time and a disgrace to this country. In my opinion, this one is worse.

Mal

For those who are so worked up about the current national situation, this SPEECH about Vigilance and Responsibility may be found to be relevant.

Robby

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

- - - Thomas Jefferson

Where does vigiiance stop and tyranny begin?

Here is an ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times about people in Iowa who held an anti-war rally and then receiving Federal Subpoenas.
Jane, isn't that your state?

Robby

Robby - Thanks for that link in post 423, I am quoting the specific line

"The essence of strategic thinking is the recognition that one must prepare not only for the expected, but also for the unexpected."

Reason I am is because when my son and oldest daughter joined their respective branches of the armed service this is what I told them.

"Expect the unexpected." They both asked my why and I said to them "You will find out."

Robby I know how many of my seniornet friends view this administration and the Patriot Act....and no it does not concern me as it does you...... I think it is being used as it was intended to be used for tracking people who may be involved in terrorists activities......Those wishing to do us harm know very well how to use our constitutional protections against us , such as cell phones, information in libraries, computers in libraries, etc.... Again...for those who think their own personal liberty is at risk this act is due up for review to see how it is being used...... It is not written in stone..... I will continue to follow news of it closely but so far have found nothing to fear...... I shall not post any more on this particular subject at this time but will continue to read all your posts............

Thanks, Mal... I did some followup to see what had happened to Mr. Downs and found the following:

http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/2629/2012358.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0308-08.htm

Yes, Robby, Iowa is my state and two nuns from Dubuque have served time in jail for protesting the College of the Americas, I think, it's called, that they say train Latin and South American police/military, etc.

I am not home now so don't have access to local information on the above. I'll see what else I can find online.

jane

On Page 31 Clancy Sigal says:

"Almost immediately after the war came the cold war. I was involved in labor activities. . . . It was the McCathy days, and you were under the scrutiny of all our security forces. People like me were either on the run or answering knocks on the door. In a funny sort of way, just as I turned the Depression into a positive thing, I turned being hunted by the FBI into a positive thing. At a time when lefties were really isolated and fragmented, along comes the FBI. They knock on my door, I open it, they show me their service thirty-eights, and in effect they're saying, 'You're the center of an international Marxist conspiracy to destroy this government,' and I thought, Wow, I'm really important."

Here's a relatively unimportant, ordinary kind of guy, who has no intention of overthrowing the government, targeted by a very powerful agency, the FBI. Today the search and seek Homeland Security people are going after the ordinary guy, too, (even in his library and bookstore) if we could but see it.

"They can't find Bin Laden and all his boys, so they're going after grocery clerk me! Boy, am I important!"

This is what can happen when the American people are fed a diet of fear, and they let go of the power democracy has given them. Ask the guy who's done nothing who's been arrested and detained. He'll tell you what's going on, and ask you why you're not doing something about it.

Mal

Letter from one of the Iowa peace activists

"Yesterday, February 3, Detective Jeff Warford of the Polk County Sheriff's Office-FBI-Joint Terrorism Task Force came to Catholic Peace Ministry's office here in Des Moines with a subpoena for me to testify before a Federal Grand Jury next Tuesday, February 10. Mr. Warford also served papers on Elton Davis at the Catholic Worker House and Patti McKee, who was coordinator of Iowa Peace Network until last month. The Grand Jury process is shrouded in secrecy. We do not know who or what the object of this investigation may be, beyond 'possible violations of federal criminal law in the Southern District of Iowa.'

"The proceeding will be behind closed doors. We may not have an attorney present. We have the right to plead the Fifth Amendment, refusing the answer questions that might incriminate us. The government, then, can offer us immunity from prosecution, in which case we will obliged to answer under threat of contempt of court and could be imprisoned for the length of the Grand Jury session, 18 months, should we continue to refuse to answer. This immunity would be limited to our own testimony and anything any of us say could be used against the others.

"Whatever is going on, this is definitely an escalation on the part of the government's war on dissent and clamp down on civil liberties. The fact that anything that we three and the peacemaking communities we represent could possibly attract the notice of a 'Terrorism Task Force' is reprehensible. Please spread the word, express concerns you have with Federal and Polk County authorities. Keep us in mind and prayer.

"Brian Terrell
Executive Director
Catholic Peace Ministry" Source:

Iowa Peace Activist subpoenas

"Another Witch Hunt", is not just what we need!

Robby,

You know that clicking on the link to the Socialist Newspaper will be noticed by the Government which is monitoring the Internet. We can expect the knock on the door soon and will be asked about reading a "Subersive Newspaper" which is "Anti-Government" and "Anti-War."

See you in Jail.

Tiger Tom

http://www.grandmothersforpeace.org/ http://www.veteransforpeace.org/ http://www.soaw.org/new/

I am posting the three above links because I feel they may be of interest to some on this board.

This is true activism. I belong to GFP and have protested several times at Fort Benning against the "School of Americas"

Activism is not only how things are effecting you personally but how people you don't even know are be effected.

With terrorism sitting on our doorstep most of you neither want to fight, nor have anything like the Patriot Act. To me that doesn't make sense. Frankly, I'd rather that the fight against terrorism be conducted somewhere else other then here because I feel it HAS TO BE DONE, and if that means fighting them in the countries that harbor them, so be it. Terrorists are NOT reasonable people. And the more we fight them on their own ground and limit their influence, the less we will have the need for things like the Patriot Act around.

I am very uncomfortable with the Patriot Act simply because all too often something that starts out benign, as time passes and administrations change, changes into something it was never meant to be. So I am all for fighting the war and making the world free and clear of terrorism so we don't have to have the Patriot Act. But, in the world we live in it will have to be one or the other, whether we like it or not. The methods of the terrorists have left us with no choice that I can see.

By the way, when I asked my librarian about anyone checking my reading list, she said they purge their computers as soon as the books are brought back. There is no law against purging the system, and once it's purged no one can check up on you or me or what we read.

I agree with much that Mr. Zinn says about the failures of our government, he also says this in his book as an anti-war statement, which is a book I mentioned before:

"There is a fable written by German playwright Bertold Brecht that goes roughly like this: A man living alone answers a knock at the door. When he opens it, he sees in the doorway the powerful body, the cruel face, of the Tyrant. The Tyrant asks, "Will you submit?" The man does not reply. He steps aside. The Tyrant enters and establishes himself in the man's home. The man serves him for years. Then the Tyrant becomes sick from food poisoning. He dies. The man wraps the body, opens the door, gets rid of the body, comes back to his house, closes the door behind him, and says firmly, "NO".

Then he goes on to say, "Violence is not the only form of power, etc., etc. . ."

Well, that's BS!!! What that silly fable doesn't tell is all the damage that the Tyrant can do, not only to the man, but to his family, and to generations, and for him to let the Tyrant into his home by stepping aside and then saying a firm "NO" only after the Tyrant is dead is totally useless and cowardly. This was probably a man of peace who felt fighting was wrong, and by not fighting he not only became a slave, but made slaves of his family and generations of people.

After what I've seen and lived with, there is no way I would ever step aside again to let the Tyrant in, even if I died in the process. To me life is wonderful, but it's not worth living without freedom. In fact, when I read the above fable I became so angry I threw the book across the room and scared my dog. But that's how I see the "peace-at-any-price" people who are out demonstrating against this war and the war on terrorism (and they are connected).

MOUNTAIN ROSE, granted that your parents and relatives went through a terrible ordeal during World War II, it occurs to me that you couldn't have seen much or understood much except your parents' fear as a wee, tiny child of two. Isn't that the age you were when your mother carried you to the American sector? How old were you when you came to this country?

There is a writer in WREX who fled Germany before the end of the war. I'm going to try to get her in here to compare notes with you.

You'd fight, you say. Whom would you attack next time? Korea? Why don't the smart people in our government find Bin Laden and the bigwigs of the Al Quaeda the way they started out to do, and be done with it? We simply don't have money enough to go into every single country that might have weapons of mass destruction or might be an enemy.

Mal

Mountain Rose - even if the system is purged it can be recreated!

Hitler used the excuse that there was plotting in Poland to march in and begin his invasion of Europe. We cannot invade other countries and control them. If they attack us - yes! International terrrorism is not controlled by one nation. Its a group of people from many nations - we can't invade all of them because a very few of their citizens are terrorists. We have to use undercover agents to fight this war from the inside.

Moxie is right - how do you think the police retrieve information from P.Cs. There is quite an involved process to completely clean your hard drive. PC Gurus here advise getting your hard drive wiped by an expert before you throw it away if there has ever been anything saved on it that you wish to keep private.

MountainRose, the tyrant doesn't immediately appear at your door. You may remember that Hitler was LEGALLY elected in Germany. Those of us who are appalled by the Patriot Act see it as a first step to deprive us of our constitutionally guaranteed liberties. We accomodate the tyrant (present or potential, take your choice) by submitting to this; in other words, we let him into our home. We must tolerate the indignities of being searched in airports, or make the decision not to fly. We don't even whimper about it; we have bought into the belief that it is necessary to make us safer. That's how the tyrant gets in!

Good post, URSA MAJOR, and very, very true.

I have found that there are numerous programs out there which can be used to purge hard drives. They work by purging every single file one at a time. Do you know how long this would take a librarian or anyone else? There are close to 5000 files in the folder in which I save graphics and music files in my computer for web pages I build. This is only one folder, not a program at all.

When you delete files from your computer, they are still on your hard disk. Deleting files from the recycle bin doesn't get rid of them; it puts them in another place.

Many of the purge programs offered for sale on the internet do not completely erase files. I read that the best way to protect your computer's files from search by a hacker or any other source is to overwrite them or encrypt them.

Mal

Remember Bush saying early on, if you aren't with us then you are a terrorist.

The First Amendment covers one of the most important freedoms we have -- Freedom of Speech. I don't know why MOUNTAIN ROSE's parents decided to leave Nazi Germany, but I do know why some of my friends did. They disagreed with the government and were threatened with imprisonment or death. If Peace Activist dissenters are subpoenaed like the ones in Iowa and forced to go to hearings without benefit of an attorney, or even herded off to a place where their voices can't be heard, this is a serious threat to our Freedom of Speech.

On Page 72 in Hope Dies Last Staughton Lynd says about the McCarthy era::
"So anybody belonging to anything got a letter saying, 'It is alleged that . . . ' I still have this letter. One of the charges against me was: 'It is alleged that your mother is a hyper-modern teacher.' "
Being a hyper-modern teacher was a crime? Marching for peace is a crime?

On Page 68 Tom Hayden says:
"The war on terrorism has accelerated the push to the right, and we're farther than ever from where we ought to be. I don't quarrel with the idea that if the World Trade Center or the Pentagon is attacked, the United States has the right to go after those who did it. But what we have here is an open-ended war on terrorism, a blank check, with no definition of enemies, no boundaries, no congressional oversight. We're at war in so many places at the moment, Afghanistan, Indonesia, the Philippines, the ex-Soviet state of Georgia . . . I can't even remember all the places, and neither can the American people. Now we've had a secret memo divulged that says the Pentagon wants to develop more usable compact nuclear weapons. The conservatives are calling for the creation of an American empire. They're citing Tiberius as a role model. The curtain is coming down on parliamentary democracy. Congress has less and less power."
Tiberius was a Roman emperor. A weak man, he surrounded himself with strong-men and the military. About Tiberius, Will Durant says in The Story of Civilization:
"A senate of real Romans would soon have overthrown him. But the Senate had, with many exceptions, become an epicure's club."
Think about it.

Mal

part, that people who are ant-war are somehow anti-patriotic, have no knowledge of war, and are simply do-gooder lefties.

This is a great discussion though, fair hearing for all views, it gives one hope.

Anneo

During the last election the Republicans came to town (Atlanta) with Ralph Reed leading the charge calling Senator Max Cleland un-Patriotic and anti-American for speeking out against going to war. He is a vietnam veteran that lost both his legs and one arm there. That to me is as low as anyone can get get. And scary to boot.

PS he lost the election..

Hooray for Senator Max Cleland. He gives me hope!

I don't know if any of you read any material other than that which agrees with your view of matters but here is a site which also pertains to the Patriot Act.... http://www.lifeandliberty.gov/ . It seems as though paranoia and thoughts of conspiracy are rampant in this discussion so alas....I doubt if any of you will visit a site which ends in gov.

TIGERLILY: HEY, we haven't done anything to deserve that!! We are all listening to divergent opinions here. I worked for the .gov for many years.and am willing to listen to anyone's opinion, as long as they don't personally insult me.

I left the house at 7:30 a.m. and have just returned at 8:30. The day was much too long and I am tired but brightened up immediately upon seeing over 30 posts. I see a lot of table-pounding here!
Mountain Rose:-How can any of us disagree with your comment that "life is not worth living without freedom." We all have the same goal but you speak against the "peace at any price" people. How about those who believe in "war at any price?" The price we are paying for this war, as I see it, is a gradual erosion of our civil liberties and I am not willing to pay that price. Those of us who are against this war are caught in a bind. Without any legal declaration of war by the Congress we suddenly find our boys and girls (and that's what they are) fighting in a nation that did not have any evidence of terrorists until after we invaded (please show me evidence to the contrary) and we are asked:-"Don't you support your troops?" That's dirty pool. It reminds me of those bumper stickers decades ago which said:-"America - love it or leave it!"
Somehow or others we confuse in our minds (or certain politicians would like us to do so) the nation America with our governmental representatives in Washington. I love my nation but I do not love the current administration.
I applaud the war on terrorism but not the war in Iraq. They are not the same. In my opinion the current administration did not know how to fight a war against a nebulous enemy it could not see or locate so it transferred to a nation and tyrant it could see. And I agree with you that we should not let the Tyrant into our house. The question is:-"Who is the Tyrant?"
You, yourself speak of the librarian who, in self defense, quickly purge their computers as soon as the books are brought back. To all you readers of George Orwell's "1984" -- doesn't that give us a chilling reminder of the information that was constantly dropped down the hole? And once that was done, past history was destroyed and a "new history" is created.
Tigerliley:-I have printed out your link and will comment on it after having read it.

Robby

Having read George Orwell's "1984", I see the double speak en al. It does seem only his date was a wee bit off.

Tigerliley:-I have not completed reading the article given by your link but I will comment on where I stand at the moment. To begin with, it is put out by the Department of Justice. To me, that makes it suspect right off. Should I have respect for the U.S. Attorney General? Well, I remember vividly (perhaps you do too) Nixon's Attorney General (I forget his name). He was so corrupt that even his wife tried to get him arrested. He, who was supposed to be the nation's role model in upholding the Law, was breaking it right and left.
So now I see your article put out by the current Attorney General and entitled "Preserving Life & Liberty" and I say oh-oh. It starts at the top with "We hold these truths to be self-evident, etc. etc. I can almost hear the band playing a Sousa march.
Then he starts in with "The Department of Justice's first priority is to prevent future terrorist attacks." That is NOT the first priority of the DOJ. That is the responsibility of the Department of Defense. The responsibility of the Justice Department is to uphold the Constitution.
He then passes the onus of the "Patriot Act" across to the Congress, saying "Congress simply took existing principles and retrofitted them to preserve the lives and liberty of the Americans." I love that word "retrofit." I don't excuse the Congress either, whether Democrat or Republican.
He goes on to say: "For years, law enforcement has been able to use 'roving wiretaps' to investigate ordinary crimes, including drug offenses and racketeering." Great! How is it that it included a 60-year old man wearing a T-shirt asking for peace?
That's all I have read at the moment but my blood pressure has already gone beyond the dangerous stage.

Robby

Here are the FACTS just given out by the White House regarding the military service of the Commander-in-Chief.

Robby

I cry foul, Tigerliley. I saw the government site you posted some time ago. It's an interpretation just as other sites provide other interpretations. It's what's happening that is important, not somebody's words on a web page.

Mal

Who exactly are you to question my memories? This is something that happens to me often, and I resent it immensely, since I checked those memories against what my mother remembered. How would you like it if I began questioning your memories, of which you give many in your writings. But I don't, because I give you the benefit of the doubt. Please do me the same courtesy.

So far I have noticed two MAJOR misconceptions about Germany. One was the Hitler was LEGALLY ELECTED, which is WRONG. And the other is that Germany was a democracy before Hitler, which is only partially right. Actually Germany is a YOUNGER country than the U.S.A., having been a loose federation of various kingdoms until the late 1800's. My own mother was still a serf in East Prussia where the landholder had life and death power over the people who labored for him. France and England had been reasonable republics for much, much longer. So Germany had little to no experience with democracy, which is exactly why the Weimar Republic failed and Hitler came to power, and why it was so important for the USA to stay there and rebuild a democratic base that worked. And here's how he came to power. Let us at least have our facts of history straight:

As economic conditions worsened, the appeal of the Nazis was far more effective than that of other parties: The Nazis were the one group that claimed to have all the answers. In a short time, the other political parties lost voters to the Nazis. Unemployment rose drastically, and in this time of great economic hardship many who had never voted before were drawn to the Nazi Party, which offered simplistic but appealing solutions to their problems and was not tied to one class or interest group. Consequently, they believed it could establish a government that would be more effective than the republic. In elections held in 1932, the Nazis received more votes than any other party, and Hitler demanded that President Hindenburg appoint him chancellor.

Though Hindenburg at first refused to appoint Hitler, a small group of men around the president urged him to do so. They felt that Hitler could be controlled and his popularity and talents could be used to further the interests of the government. As the year progressed, Brüning's successor Franz von Papen grew unpopular as his attempts to revive the economy failed. Hindenburg replaced him with the political leader of the army, Kurt von Schleicher. Von Papen took revenge on Schleicher by joining forces with Hitler and Alfred Hugenberg. They talked the elderly Hindenburg into making Hitler chancellor in a cabinet in which von Papen would be vice-chancellor and most other ministers would be non-Nazis. On January 30, 1933, Hitler was sworn in as chancellor of Germany. Those who disliked the republic had persuaded the president to turn over authority to its sworn enemy. (From Encarta)

since questioning my memories is a low blow, and it seems to be a diatribe for the anti-war crowd. I leave the field. History will be the judge whether you are right or wrong. I don't care to judge. I just know what my view is and how far I would go to fight for my freedom which is being boxed in more and more by terrorists, not by Bush!

Peace and freedom are wonderful sentiments, and ideally that is the way the world should be. But if I have to choose between the two of those I will choose freedom every time, even without peace!

Mountain Rose - do not retreat from this discussion please!

I am younger than most in this arena, but I and everyone in this discussion respect each others view.

We all have different view points, discuss them, but do not try to impose them upon one another.

Hope is not the Last Thing to Die is it?

An Elderhostel attendee at Bay Area Classic Learning/Tiburon (on the San Francisco Bay) recently posted this message on another board;

"John Rothmann discussed the Middle East Conflict. He has a wealth of government, political, and international experience and he personally knows many of our political leaders. John hosts a talk show on KGO radio. He lectured for three hours with no notes and painted a coherent and informed picture, addressing history, politics, intelligence information, finances, the Muslim belief system, etc. He stood up well to strong challenges by some of the hostile elders when he said that there is no solution to the problems we are having, that terrorism will increase, no matter what we do. Some of us found his arguments watertight and were mildly depressed afterward."

I attended an E/H in Tiburon in October 2002 and heard Rothman speak on the same subject. He is quite impressive. Most attendees left depressed then, as well.

He predicted Bush would invade Iraq by Feb or March 2003. Didn't miss it by much.

Unfortunately, I don't get to post in here very often but some of the things that have been said I find quite disturbing. Take for example, what was said about about libraries. Some one said their library purges the file after books are returned to keep the government (my government)from investigating our reading habits.

A constitutional ammendment protects us from search and seizure by government bodies. The government may not search without a court order and a court order may not be obtained without showing probable cause. If anyone is interested in retaining the power of this ammendment or the power of any of the first ten ammendments (sometimes called the "Bill of Rights"), I recommend we seek redress from the courts. When the Executive branch through the Justice Department seeks to abrogate the powers of the constitution, the citizenry have little choice but to seek proper redress.

Justin- Robby posted a link to a disturbing clause in the Patriot Act back a couple of pages in this discussion. If I were an American I would be concerned also. I can see why Robby feels concerned.

ROSE: please don't withdraw. I really appreciate and value your opinions. This discussion is an exercise in arguing with people we like and respect. If everyone here agrees, it will become a "mutual admiration society" and a waste of time.

I have listened to you now in many groups already in the few months I have been in Seniornet, and always find your contributions valuable and well thought out, even when I don't agree.

It upsets me when people leave a discussion because others have differing opinions. Surely we are all mature enough to accept that others do not always agree with us. People often disagree with me but I don't take it personally.

Tigerlily, I object to your saying "I doubt that any of you read other material other than that which agrees with your view".....and "I doubt that you will visit a site ending with gov...." I am disappointed that you doubt that we are open minded enough to read a post even if we have another point of view. Not commenting on a post does not necessarily mean we disagree.

Robby, Why do you think that if another party is elected at the White House it will not do the same as the former party on National Defense? How will they deal with terrorism? would they repeal the Patriot Act? Will the next government not fight terrorism by drastic measures that take away some freedom?

Eloïse

Hitler was appointed Chancellor of the Reich by Hindenburg in 1933. Hindenburg died July 1934. Hitler amalgamated the positions of Chancellor and president to become Fuhrer in 1934 The army tolerated Hitler's actions, and the Armed Forces swore an Oath of allegiance to Hitler in August 1934.

Hitler timeline
The Third Reich: Consolidation of Power

MOUNTAIN ROSE, why are the questions I asked a "low blow"? You stated in your Post #386:

"I was born in 1941 in Berlin, Germany..."

That made you 4 years old when the war with Germany ended. I recalled that you said your mother had taken you to the American sector when you were about 2 years old. Since you have made strong statements about what you witnessed, including seeing Russian tanks, and you talked about rape by Russian soldiers, I think it's natural for anyone to wonder whether such a very small child could remember such things from witnessing them, or whether this information came from what your parents or some other adult told you they had seen.

You have every right to question my memories if you want to. I already questioned them in my Post 241 when I was talking about my mother which starts "Memory is fickle", and I have questioned them in posts in other discussions.

Using what I asked you and the fact that you think some participants here are "anti-war" as reasons to leave this discussion doesn't make much sense, frankly. I don't know anyone here, you included, who wouldn't rather have peace for our country.

Mal

Oh-oh, folks. I detect a tendency to address the personality rather than the issue. This is understandable when we get into emotional topics but for anything worthwhile to be accomplished, this tendency must be kept in check.
This has been (and is) a wonderful discussion group. In a little over a week, there have been almost 500 postings and every single one has contained meaty material, whether you agree with it or not.
I am going to ask all of you a favor. Please humor me. I am going to repost my very first posting. Please let us together read this posting, take three long deep breaths, and then resume our sharing of opinions.
At the moment we seem to be discussing a "political" issue regarding the government but there are plenty more topics that I'm sure will be brought up which have to do with inter-personal and inter-group relationships and have nothing to do with the government at all.
Your indulgence, please.

Robby

My father had five brothers. When I was in my teens, just out of high school, I used to visit my grandparents and on occasional Sundays all seven of us men, which of course included myself, would find ourselves sitting around the dining room table and giving opinions.

Oh, did we have opinions! I was always precocious but my precociosity (I'm entitled to make up a word) was always accepted by my family. We gave opinions about the stock market, the coolies in China, the wisdom of New York's mayor (LaGuardia at that time), the condition of the school system, the possibility of war (it came to Europe two years later), the media (nine newspapers in NYC at that time but no TV), hunger in the world, how the pyramids were built (obviously we were all amateur engineers), the benefits of Italian food (did you think Iadeluca was an Irish name?), the future of the best baseball team in the nation (Brooklyn Dodgers of course), how to get along with women (I listened at that point), how to get a good job, why the Twentieth Century Limited train is able to get to Chicago so fast, animal rights, and on and on.

Our voices rose. We interrupted each other. We pounded the table. We looked at our "opponent" with disdain. Sarcasm might have entered the discourse -- debate? -- argument? What matter the title of the event. We had views and we gave them with no holds barred. We did tend to move along in some sort of organized fashion from one topic to another -- an organized chaos, if you will.

But you know what? No profanity ever. It was not part of our vocabulary. No commenting by one brother upon the character of the other. We even occasionally agreed. And we laughed. Oh, how we laughed. Sometimes laughing at the antics of someone else who was going to great lengths to prove a point. Sometimes laughing at ourselves. For an hour or two we took on the world.

Then out came the coffee and the pastries. Time for a breathing spell. Time to look inwardly and feel good about ourselves. We had opinions. We felt them strongly. And we had expressed them. Maybe we had changed someone else's mind and maybe we hadn't.

I repeat:- we took on the world. But make no mistake. It was not an exercise in public speaking. We were angry! We were angry at all the idiocy in this imperfect world. We didn't know if we could at that moment do anything about it but, by God, we were going to make our voices heard, even if only in the confines of one room. We were one step away from being activists.

A couple of us did take that step. One uncle used to stand on a corner in Times Square preaching the Marxist manifesto and selling the Daily Worker. Another uncle, an elevator operator, would trap an unsuspecting passenger between floors and get him to change his way of thinking. Many years later I, a World War II veteran, marched from Fordham University to the New York University uptown campus, being splattered with eggs on the way, as I helped protest the Vietnam War.

This is the spirit of this new discussion group. If ever you were extremely upset about something and wanted to speak up about it, this is the time and the place. Political views accepted? Of course. But if the only thing that bothers you in this life is the presidency, the congress, or the supreme court, or government in general, then you are thinking too narrowly and you are in the wrong forum. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL DISCUSSION GROUP. We will talk here about "people" and their relationships with other people. No topic here is too large and none is too miniscule.

This is the spirit in which Studs Terkel wrote his book, "Hope Dies Last." His book is about Activism. He quotes Thomas Paine's vision of America written in 1791:-"Freedom has been hunted round the globe. Reason was considered as rebellion. The slavery of fear had made men afraid to think." And Studs adds:-"Here is where the activists enter the picture, as they always have. Paine assumed a society not simply of citizens, but of thinking citizens."

Through the medium of his book Studs will be our guide as we move along. We will follow his 325-page book as he moves us from his quote of Jessie de la Cruz at the start:-"I feel there's gonna be a change, but we're the ones gonna do it, not the government" to the quote at the end of the book by Kathy Kelly:-"We're going to change our lifestyles."

Thinking is the byword. Let us give our opinions. Shouting is permitted. Table pounding is encouraged. And perhaps not interrupting the other person too much. Tell it like it is or how you think it should be!!

This time I have taken the liberty of underlining certain phrases which I believe are apropos at the moment.

Robby

One other thing. I don't ever remember any one of my uncles leaving the table.

Robby

Hey, folks, we won! See where ACTIVISM WORKED!

Robby

ROBBY, if I've been out of line here I apologize. I am the unfortunate type who wants to know on what facts generalizations, or statements professing to be facts, are based. For example, when someone tells me the Patriot Act undermines freedom of people in this country, I have to know about actual events that happened which led this person to think that way before I can believe what he or she says. The same applies to me. I can't be allowed -- or allow myself -- to say something is going on that I can't back up with some sort of proof which shows what I say is not an opinion or a personal bias. Anyway, I'll do my best to stick to the issues from now on.

Now another point of view from the book. Brigadier General Paul Tibbetts is the man who flew a plane, named the Enola Gay for his mother, from which were dropped atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima toward the end of World War II. I thought what he said about the amount of time he had to get the plane the greatest distance from where the bomb would explode was fascinating, something I had never thought about.

General Tibbetts says:

"I don't know any more about these terrorists than you do; I know nothing. When they attacked the Trade Center I couldn't believe what was going on. We've fought many enemies at different times. But we knew who they were and where they were. These people, we don't know who they are or where they are. That's the point that bothers me. Because they're gonna strike again, I'll put my money on it, and it's going to be damned dramatic. . . . We've got to get in a position where we can kill the bastards. None of this business of taking them to court. The hell with that. I wouldn't waste five seconds on them."

Studs asks General Tibbetts:

"One last thing: when you hear people say, 'Let's nuke 'em, let's nuke these people' what do you think?"
Tibbetts replies:

"Oh, I wouldn't hesitate if I had the choice. I'd wipe 'em out. You're gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought a damn war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people. If the newspapers would just cut out the shit: 'You've killed so many civilians.' That's just their hard luck for being there."
This is a very hard line attitude. General Tibbetts is absolutely right. There never has been a war where innocent people haven't been killed. War entails killing, and if people get in the way they're going to be killed right along with people in the military service. Why are we so surprised then? Why are we so shocked by the idea?

I've tried to remember how I felt after the shock of the plane bombings of the Twin Towers took place. As I remember, I thought we should go after Bin Laden and the Al Qaeda, but I thought we should do it in the same covert, secret way in which we were attacked. My initial idea was that we should not to go in and bomb the places where we thought these terrorists were.

Of course, if we acted covertly it would not bring fame and glory (and fortune sometimes) to us. There would be no flashy headlines or media coverage which has a tendency to polarize the country. If a covert mission is to be successful, we wouldn't know what was going on.

I imagine there have been thousands of these through the years that we know nothing about. A secret mission is, in my mind, anyway, kind of apolitical until it's over. There's no fuss and fury or applause about it until an announcement is made that the instigators of the terrorist act have been captured. That's not the way Americans have acted in the past, and it's not the way they're acting now. Is it possible that old war tactics become outmoded?

At any rate, I do not agree with General Tibbetts, who, after all, is even older than I am -- he's 85 years old.

Mal

ROBBY, just saw your post and the article you linked. Hooray for Activism!

Mal

Robby thanks for reposting the purpose of this discussion..I was just about ready to give up since it was in my opinion turning into a political discussion.

Most of us here have lived through a lot of things...laws that sounded good (and no I dont have one to link you too off the top of my head) that turned out to be bad. Even in our personal lives we often find a good idea really isnt ..or what we consider a bad idea in the beginning may still have some merits.

Like you my five brothers, my parents , especially my father not to mention the wall to wall relatives I had. ( one was the "President" of the local Teamesters and Chauffers Union when I was young ..I thought him especially brave since the previous one had his car blown up with him in it) had discussions all the time. When I was young I just listened but by the time I was a teen ager I was right there giving my opinion...what pleased me at the time was the respect I recieved from my family. If I gave an opinion they thought was wrong or I hadnt seen both sides I can hear my brothers say "But Anna Mae look at it this way" or my father say when I defended something I wanted to do "because everyone else was doing it" say " I guess if everyone else is jumping off of Eads Bridge you would too" The point I am making we all said what we felt ...since I learned to read early I read the local newspapers..the St Louis Post Dispatch and the St Louis Globe Democrat..not just the funnies but the editorial pages and the letter to the editor pages..and by the way the funnies were the last thing I read then and that is the way it is today ...

In my opinion we should listen to what each poster has to say politely and think about what our reply should be..I understand why the Patriot Act was passed but like most things it needs some more thinking..What is good about it ..what is bad about it ..what do we protest and what do we say Okay I can deal with that ...and perhaps this is necessary and that isnt ..what was that old saying Dont throw the baby out with the bath water. I have lived long enough to know LAWS ARE NOT WRITTEN IN STONE ..they can be changed..I would love to have posters that question what I think like my brothers did ANNA LOOK AT IT THIS WAY..perhaps I will see the merit in what you say and perhaps I wont but when we are finished this discussion I still want to be friends...anna

I think there is one thing when one posts an opinion and disagrees with another posters opinion. But when a person disagrees with other posters and comes out swinging then it ends up the way it is starting to become here. This goes on in the Political forums all the time. It comes across as How can you be sooo stupid to feel that way because I don't. But the thing is that doesn't make you right or the other poster wrong.

With respect I say that sometimes activist fervor can be misread and misunderstood as political talk. I get your point, though. If you'll excuse me now, I'm heading for my html program to do the work I've been neglecting because this discussion so much interested me.

Thanks a million for all your stimulating views.

Mal

Engage Friends in the March for Women's Lives Through "Iron Jawed Angels" Watch Parties

The National March for Women's Lives* is 76 days away, and PFAW Foundation's march delegation is strong and growing. Coming this month, there is a new and entertaining opportunity to inspire friends and family to stand with us in Washington on April 25.

On Sunday, February 15, HBO will debut "Iron Jawed Angels," a new movie that chronicles the battle over the 19th Amendment through the lives of Alice Paul and Lucy Burns. Paul (Hilary Swank) and Burns (Francis O'Connor) broke from the mainstream women's suffrage movement of their time and created a more activist wing that pushed the boundaries of political protest to secure women's voting rights in 1920.

This film has an important message for all of us. That is exactly why we ask that you invite family and friends to watch "Angels" with you and use the moment to urge still more pro-choice Americans to march on the National Mall in April. (If you don't have access to HBO, check to see if a free sneak-peak screening is planned in your city on February 12.)

I am going to say something as a furriner and if you want to kick me out of this discussion its OK. I can see why so many people do not vote in your country - Politics is a dirty word to so many people. I come from a society where politics are talked about everywhere, every day and yes sometimes the discussion gets heated. However we can still go on without resentment to one another. As far as I am concerned our whole lives are affected by Politicians. Activism cannot be separated from Politics. Every subject which will be discussed here will ultimately lead back to a political decision whether it be local, State or Federal. Frankly after being told how free the USA is I see that people are not free because they cannot say what they feel for fear of being censured because they should not be talking politics.

Carolyn

Carolyn - don't be fooled by our references to politics and activism, we do speak of politics/activism without fear! But each of us have our own way of doing things and never seem to agree about what should be and should not be done.

Kiwi, I can't understand why so many people don't vote either. I have always voted in presidential elections, and I voted in the Tennessee primary yesterday. I think it may be discouragement - what difference does one vote make anyway? There is also the matter of whether my vote will be counted; quite a number of military votes were never counted in the last election. And if I lived in Florida I might feel it wasn't worthwhile anyway; so many votes were voided or just outright stolen there.

my memories and makes insinuations as have been made, it does become personal and insulting. My memories are used here to make a point about an issue that's being discussed, not to have them attacked or questioned. I fully realize that most people have no to few memories until about the age of 5. Well, most people don't have trauma to the degree I experienced in their lives, and so it may be true that nothing much is remembered until age 5. I remember things from the age of 2. Most of the war was actually fought full-steam from 1943 to 1945 when it ended. So that makes me 3 and 4 years of age. I'm not claiming I remember everything, but I will stand by what I do remember, clearly and distinctly, and it's an insult to have it insinuated that it somehow is suspect. I will also stand by what my family told after the war, since they lived it.

And I do resent Americans who have always lived in safety, claiming they know better than those people who have not had that chance.

On that note, I am posting why I think Bush is exactly right, why he is looking at the bigger picture, and what's more is, our primary election is coming up and whereas he had a sort of luke-warm vote the last time around, he has my full and enthusiastic vote this time around.

Read if you want to look at more than one side. I don't really care: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/tonyblankley/tb20040211.shtml

I do think that all human beings long for peace, but the way to obtain peace, at least in my book, is not to sit around wishing for it without being willing to put your money where your mouth is, or leaving yourself open to terrorism because of a "do-nothing" attitude.

MOUNTAIN ROSE, I did not say anything you said was "suspect." Thank you for the link. I read that Boston Globe article, since I look at the Globe every day.

Thank you, RAY, for that information. This is an issue which should concern all women who are anxious to hold onto and protect their rights.

I see the point of CAROLYN's post to be that she thinks apathy on the part of U.S. citizens about voting is the result of the fact that we are reluctant to discuss politics. Do you think this is this true? I think CAROLYN is absolutely right when she suggests that politics affect and influence everything we do and have. Perhaps if people didn't take disagreement with their political views as a personal insult we'd be able to lay issues on the table and examine and discuss them coolly and rationally. I see no reason why politics should not be touched on here. After all, Studs Terkel's book is full of talk about politics and politicians.

Is nobody interested in the quotes from Hope Dies Last by Brigadier General Paul Tibbetts in my Post #471 ? General Tibbetts's view is very different from that of General LaRocque, whom I also quoted in an earlier post, and it is well worth talking about.

Below are links to websites that might interest you. The first is a website put up by the CIA in 2002 about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which have yet to be found.

The second is an article about what the American public was told and what was actually in a U.S. document.

The third is about conditions at Guantanamo. Political prisoners there are out of sight and out of mind, and I believe what's happening to them should be talked about.

CIA paper about Iraq's WMD published in 2002

Doubts, dissent stripped from Iraq assessment

What's happening at Guantanamo?

"I have something to say about being a human being, who we really are and can really be, that we can be more than we appear. If we believed, if we trusted, if we had the courage to step outside the box and smile at someone of a different color, someone who calls God by a different name -- just a little bit of that can make a difference."

-- Maya Angelou

The Boston Globe. February 11, 2004

Below is a link to the Boston Globe article mentioned in the article MOUNTAIN ROSE linked.

Grand old policy

I read the article Mal but does a strategy which is old, mean it is good for the 21st century. The world has changed in that there is no balance of power. It may be a good thing for the USA but is it a good thing for us, the rest of the world. Walk in the shoes of some of the tiny nations.

No, CAROLYN, I don't think it does. I don't agree with the article. Did you read some of the other articles I linked? There's one linked from an Australian publication; did you see it?

Mal

As you stated by using your family as a reference, this is the site where we have agreed to disagree. I for one appreciate every post that I have read here. I want to hear EVERY side of a situation. Otherwise I would just be a parrot reiterating whomever had the loudest voice. I feel that an opinion isn't wrong it just may be different. And it may be different than....mine.

MAL: yes, I was very interested in what General Tibbits had to say. He stands out in the book, because he is not, as far as I can see, a political activist. But I'm very glad Terkel included him as a counter to the other military men interviewed, to give a rounded picture of military response to their experiences. I worked for the Army for some years and met a number of people who think like Tibbits. While I completely disagree with him, I can see his point of view as one that might come naturally out of his experiences in war. It is more surprising that there are so many military people who are able to step back, and see a broader view. That is why the military has a civilian chief of staff.

Reading here about the Patriot Act etc. I was reminded suddenly of a program I saw on our SBS. It was a program about ethnic cleansing, and how ordinary decent people could be persuaded to go along with the annihilation of a race of human beings just like them. The narrator said it was possible because it was done like gentle drops of water falling, a little change here, an adjustment to a law there. Making lists of people just to know who was there, putting them into groups and then gradually isolating them and making them appear different.

Little by little, the population was made to see them as different and not human. It would be horrible to see this happen to anti-war protestors, or religious groups, or whatever. I honestly think at this point of time you could walk the streets of my town wearing a T-shirt that said "I'd Like to Bump off the PM" and some people would laugh and say "On-ya, Mate, can't stand him!" and someone else would say " Whadda you mean, best thing that ever happened to this country" but that would be all. I'd hate to see anything go any further as has obviously happened in America. Maybe other Australians disagree with how I see it.

An interesting point from the show. History used to be written from the viewpoint of the conquerors. The 20th. Century was the first time it's been written from the victim's viewpoint.

Jan

Catching up on posts. Just read Robby's about Drake University. I came here to post my article and lo and behold, there was Robby's. Well, this one might give some more info to add to the other post: http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines04/0207-07.htm Love this place! Talk away about anything - any side. I am enjoying, too, what everyone has to say.

Mountain Rose - your comment about you would choose freedom at any cost...point well taken.

Linda

There is an OUTBREAK of H.I.V. among college students. Does anyone here care? Are we all waiting for the "government" to do something? Whanever something comes up, do we automatically wait for the "government" to do something?
Do any of you have children or grandchildren in college? Are they aware of the cause of AIDS? Do they care?
What about the AIDS epidemic in South Africa and India? Is that none of our business? Whenever I admit a new patient to my practice, I ask scores of questions one of which is:-"Have you ever been tested for HIV? If so, how long ago? What was the result? Interestingly, no one ever told me that they had a positive result.
It is my belief, and I tell all my patients this, that everyone (EVERYONE!) should be tested. The answer that I often get is that they had blood drawn for one reason or another some time ago and "I guess they automatically tested for HIV" and "I guess I don't have HIV or they would have told me."
Baloney! This is a Public Health issue and everyone should be tested across the board. And everyone should be told the results. Phooey on the "government." Let's take care of this on a local level.

Robby

Our HIV level of infection is relatively low compared to other countries I think we are well educated on the cause of aids and how to avoid infection. A lot of couples here are having aids tests before they begin an intimate relationship. If the spread is serious as you say Robby then I think testing across the board would be a very good idea. I think maybe we will get more cases with the increasing abuse of drugs here.

In the chapter about Arnold Sundgaard he said:-"Susan Glaspell, part of the Federal Theatre, said to me -- Why don't you do a play about a contemporary problem we don't know much about? She was referring to syphilis.
"So I took on the job of doing a plan on syphilis, a subject people shied away from. Spirochete, we called it, after the germ, and it was a medical history of the disease. At the time the surgeon general was having a mass blood testing in Chicago. Everybody was shocked by the idea.
"I went to all the research libraries in town, visited all the clinics. I remember visiting the county jail, where they had a clinic. The play really grabbed the audience, really shook them up. They talked about it even after they left the theater. It made a lot of them aware, vocal, and ACTIVE".
Syphilis is now under control (?) and AIDS is here instead -- on a much greater level. Oh, well, who cares. It's "not in my backyard." Has nothing to do with my family, or friends, or neighborhood. It's only contracted by homosexuals anyway and they deserve it. Anyway, I'm only one person. What can I do about it? It's the job of the medical community.

Robby

Apparently chlamydia is rife amongst teenagers here in some cities. I think there should be testing for this disease as it is a major cause of infertility in otherwise healthy young women.

Blood donors are tested for AIDS and most other diseases aren't they? There's a chance to do good AND get tested. Although the ban on donors here who have eaten British beef has cut down the number of people who can do this.

Jan

Here are the goals of the California Public Health Institute which are close to the goals of all local Public Health Departments.
1 - To strengthen the capacity of communities to engage residents to act on their own and in partnership with health departments and other institutions to protect and improve the community's health and well-being.

2 - To enhance the capacity of health departments to respond to community-based and community-driven priorities, partner with other institutions and provide essential functions in a manner consistent with the cultures, values and needs of communities.

3 - To create sustainable relationships between communities and public health departments and other key institutions that promote and define mutual responsibility for community health.

4 - To develop state and local policies and infrastructure that support and sustain local capacity to improve community health.

Are we all feeling helpless about this?

Robby

Jan:-I'm glad you brought up the topic of blood. Did everyone here think that AIDS can be contracted only through sexual activity? Have you been in the hospital recently? Did you receive a blood transfusion? How about a member of your family? Click HERE to see the risk. And if the risk is small, are you or your family willing to be that small statistic that gets HIV?

Robby

MountainRose, I agree with you that our representatives tend to become an exclusive club which makes it hard for them to really represent their constituents. They award themselves benefits, like great health plans, that are not available to other citizens, and pass laws that make it increasingly difficult to unseat an incumbent. No sooner are they elected than they are raising money and campaigning for reelection. To stay in office becomes their primary job.

MAL, Elders were not missing during the sixties. It just happened to be the time when "baby boomers" were in their twenties. The Boomers, because of their numbers, have dominated the American scene in every generation, and their slogans have jammed their opinions and issues down our collective throats. Now that they are beginning to cope with the problems of ageing, we are seeing more attention given to these issues. After all, the Boomers by their huge numbers will soon swell the ranks of Alzheimer's patients to unmanageable proportions if nothing is done. Since we are all in front of them, this will be the case for the rest of our lives.
______________________________________________________________________

Kiwi Lady, I don't think the Bush regime is so much fascinated with war as they are by the spoils of war in the form of oil and lucrative contracts to "rebuild" Iraq which they can award to their friends and campaign contributors. But there is hope. The popularity of the administration's policies is diminishing as more facts come out about the WMDs and the faulty nature of the intelligence that was used as a pretext for the Iraq War.
______________________________________________________________________

Unfortunately, there will probably continue to be terrorists as long as there are people with nothing to lose. Such people look for a way to find meaning in their lives, and martyrdom is one such way.

Robby: What sort of laws would it take to force everyone to have an AIDS test and then what? Right now, at least in Iowa, nobody could be told if someone did test positive for HIV. A child's teachers could not be told, so we were all given latex gloves, etc. to wear if a child were bleeding/vomiting, etc. Children were expected to clean up their own blood, if at all possible, etc. The bottles of alcohol solution spray were around in the gym, etc. where athletes might bleed.

How would you ever get everyone to agree to be tested for HIV? How would they ever agree to tell anyone or get treatment, if they were positive?

A young man has been on trial in Iowa for spreading HIV by engaging in sexual activity without telling his partners? It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Is he guilty of attempted murder in your eyes?

jane

Hepatitis B can also be a danger if anyone is exposed to the blood of the person. Yes, we, took have clean-up kits with bleach and latex gloves. If you'd touch just a tiny bit of residue and you had a small cut on your finger, you could get the disease.

Linda Mary Sunshine

Oh please! Is there anyone in this day and age that still believes HIV is contaracted ONLY thru blood? I don't think so!

Don't preach to the choir, talk to the drug companies!!!

Jane has some great questions. Andrea, let's think this through. Considering the current emphasis on privacy, how can we, in one way or another, see that everyone is tested for this scourge?

Robby

It is never going to happen!! The reason is obvious- painful truth of indiscretions & "self" , public knowledge and the painful search of what ifs- what if nots.

What will happen in the USA if a child tests positive for HIV? Will that child be excluded from kindergarten or school because of hysterical parents? It has happened before. Here the authorities make sure there is no discrimination and that the other pupils are safe. Even small aids sufferers are taught safety procedures.

My 19 year old grandson is a freshman at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He and his friends are well-informed about AIDS, having received their first education about it at home and in grade school. They were taught more about AIDS in high school, and now in courses at the university.

Horselover, the statement about elders was quoted from Studs Terkels' book. It was stated by Tom Hayden, not I.

Mal

South Korean scientists claim cloning success

" ' My reaction is, basically, wow,' said Dr. Richard Rawlins, an embryologist who is director of the assisted reproduction laboratories at the Rush University Medical Center in Chicago. 'It's a landmark paper.'

"It is what patients with diseases like Parkinson's and diabetes had been waiting for, the start of so-called therapeutic cloning. The idea is to clone a patients cells to make embryonic stem cells that are an exact genetic match of the patient. Then those cells, patients hope, could be turned into replacement tissue to treat or cure their disease without provoking rejection from the body's immune system.

"Even though the new work clears a significant hurdle, scientists caution that it could take years of further research before stem cell science turns into actual therapies.

"Even before the publication — reported last night by a South Korean newspaper, one day ahead of the embargo imposed by Science — the research was criticized by cloning opponents.

"Dr. Leon R. Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, called for federal legislation to stop human cloning for any purpose. 'The age of human cloning has apparently arrived: today, cloned blastocysts for research, tomorrow cloned blastocysts for babymaking,' Dr. Kass wrote in an e-mail message. 'In my opinion, and that of the majority of the Council, the only way to prevent this from happening here is for Congress to enact a comprehensive ban or moratorium on all human cloning.' "

Just came across this:

Outlawing Dissent

Spying on peace meetings, cracking down on protesters, keeping secret files on innocent people -- how Bush's war on terror has become a war on freedom.

- - - - - - - - - - - - By Michelle Goldberg Salon.com http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/02/11/cointelpro/index_np.html

Andy:-Are you saying that AIDS can not be prevented, only treated? Education is one form of prevention but from what I see, this education is being ignored in many circles. Are we to just wait until it becomes a pandemic?
I am wondering if most people ignore items which relate to the scientific world. The fight against AIDS is one. Another is cloning, as commented upon by Mal. I recommend that everyone here read in detail the Link that Mal gave.
Is it time for Activism?

Robby

This from today's NY Times:

Justice Dept. Seeks Hospitals' Records of Some Abortions By ERIC LICHTBLAU Published: February 12, 2004

WASHINGTON, Feb. 11 — The Justice Department is demanding that at least six hospitals in New York City, Philadelphia and elsewhere turn over hundreds of patient medical records on certain abortions performed there.

Lawyers for the department say they need the records to defend a new law that prohibits what opponents call partial-birth abortions. A group of doctors at hospitals nationwide have challenged the law, enacted last November, arguing that it bars them from performing medically needed abortions.

The department wants to examine the medical histories for what could amount to dozens of the doctors' patients in the last three years to determine, in part, whether the procedure, known medically as intact dilation and extraction, was in fact medically necessary, government lawyers said.

But hospital administrators are balking because they say the highly unusual demand would violate the privacy rights of their patients, and the standoff has resulted in clashing interpretations from federal judges in recent days about whether the Justice Department has a right to see the files."

The entire article can be found at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/12/politics/12ABOR.html?th

Are people at risk in employment and health insurance once they are tested for aids and found to be positive? Is lack of privacy of medical records why so many shy away from tests?

In the early 80's this AIDS epidemic began to run rampant in th USA. I was in charge of Infectious Diseases in the hospital where I worked and was chosen to go to CDC for a week to learn more about this horrible disease. It was the best education I ever recieved and I brought back the knowledge with me to spread the word that this disease CAN be prevented. I will never get over the ignorance that I faced from my peers, the prison officials in our prison ward, radiologists, all medical personnel and the educated and honorable Physicians. I t became MY problem! They made that very clear that I was to take care of this epidemic and they wanted no part of it, including being educated in their ignorance of this epidemic. Fortunately, the Medical Director and the CEO of this 200 bed hospital were good friends and I took my cause to their ears. Weekly mandatory meetings and seminars were set up with all personnel, including physicians. Everyone was afraid, so evryone wanted to bury theri heads in the sand. I still bristle when I think back on those days of the ignorance that educated men/women showed because they were fearful. Fear is a bitter enemy because your words fall on deaf ears. Until this disease hit home, most refused to care. Trust me, in time it hit home for many. Name calling, gay-bashing and ignorance prevailed instead of open communication and learning.

I was a single mother at that time and felt that open, honest teaching was the best I could do for my young teenage son, also. Within days, I had a living room full of yound teenage boys asking me questions about AIDS, sex, condoms-- you name it. One of these kids was a son of a physician who berated me for giving these boys condoms. He told me that those kids would grow "out of it." I in turn told him "Those boys are just growing INTO it." I then advised him if he didn't want these 14 year old boys to know about sex then he should hide his trashy "Hustler" magazines. (There wasn't much these boys didn't reveal.) EDUCATION, education, education. The ignorant as well as the "know it alls" need to be educated before it is too late.

Oh boy, one of MY tirades has erupted, hasn't it? We have become less diligant in our efforts to teach and this epidemic has become pandemic.

Cloning - what a frightening thought that is. Even though the scientific community means well there is a great danger that someone or country will utilize the method to "clone" someone evil.

Intrusion of medical records regarding abortions is just that, is the government trying to send us back to the time when it was illegal to have an abortion and many women died when they(the women) tried to do the abortion themselves or have it done by some quack.

Read the article I linked above! Do you realize that if scientists do research on stem cells, they could find therapeutic use for them which could help cure cancer, diabetes and other incurable diseases ? Do you realize that stem cell therapy could help paraplegics like Christopher Reeve restore the use of his muscles? Scientists are years and years away from what you fear. Don't you think world governments will put tight restrictions on this if and when it happens? Here's more from the article:

"The ( Korean ) scientists stress that all the research was in the laboratory, in petri dishes. No embryo was implanted in a woman. The women who provided unfertilized eggs that were needed to start the cloning process were not paid.

"The research was financed by the government of South Korea, where cloning to create a baby is illegal.

"Stem cells are the research prize. They appear after an embryo has grown for five or six days, its cells subdividing within the hard casing of the egg. Although the embryo at this stage contains about 100 cells, it is still no bigger than the original egg, nearly invisible to the naked eye.

" 'If it was floating in water with light underneath, it might look like a speck of dust,' said Dr. William Gibbons, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at Eastern Virginia.

"The defining feature of a blastocyst is that it has a real structure, made of a ball of cells, the inner cell mass, encased in a sphere.

"But at the blastocyst stage, the inner cell mass consists of cells that are still indeterminate, not yet committed to becoming any particular cell type. They are the stem cells, which can in theory develop into any of the body's tissues and organs. Stem cells from a clone would be genetically identical to the person who contributed cells to make the embryo.

Let's see...do I have this right? Some of you are worried somebody might learn of the books you checked out of the local library, but you don't care if the government has a law that FORCES you to have certain medical tests and makes these results known to everyone and forces you into treatment? Is that what I'm reading here?

jane

It does sound paradoxical, doesn't it, JANE?

69 years ago when I entered first grade, all children in Massachusetts were required to have a smallpox vaccination. Today, just as an example, Pennsylvania requires 3 doses of tetanus, 3 doses of diphtheria, 3 doses of polio, 2 doses of measles,1 dose of mumps, 1 dose of rubella (German measles) vaccines. Other states require these plus immunization against Hepatitis B and a certain type of influenza virus. These immunizations are required so there will not be epidemics of these potentially deadly diseases.

There is no cure for AIDS, which is reaching pandemic proportions in the Americas. Why is it unrealistic to think that AIDS testing should also be required? If there is in people's minds a stigma about being tested for a sexually transmitted disease, education in schools and the media, perhaps in the form of a commercial, about the fact that sexual transmission is only one of the ways in which people can contract this terrible disease should be done.

Is mandatory disease prevention an invasion of privacy? Not according to public opinion. In my estimation, searching library records, bank records, payroll records, records of book sales, sholastic records, absolutely is an invasion of privacy, and should not be allowed by the American people.

Mal

Malyrn

I did read the article and agree whole heartily of what good the cloning would be used for but the UNEXPECTED possibility of use to clone a person that maybe totally detrimental to the welfare of humanity concerns me a great deal.

Here is information regarding AIDs directly from the Center for Disease Control. As Andrea says, it "began to run rampant in the USA" just 20 years ago. Again, to repeat, Andrea, "this epidemic has become pandemic." It is not something that COULD happen to us. It is happening NOW.
What I think is happening is that some of us are saying:-"It is not happening to me or my family." Are we sure? Do we know all there is to know? To quote Andrea again:-"'Know it alls' need to be educated before it is too late.'"
Here are the most common ways that HIV is transmitted from one person to another as explained by the Center for Disease Control:

* by having sex (anal, vaginal, or oral) with an HIV-infected person;

by sharing needles or injection equipment with an injection drug user who is infected with HIV; or

from HIV-infected women to their babies before or during birth, or through breast-feeding after birth.

HIV also can be transmitted through receipt of infected blood or blood clotting factors. However, since 1985, all donated blood in the United States has been tested for HIV. Therefore, the risk of infection through transfusion of blood or blood products is extremely low. The U.S. blood supply is considered to be among the safest in the world.

Really? It may be the "safest" but I have my doubts as to its absolute purity. I would think twice before having a blood transfusion.

A couple of comments, Mal. First, concerning Admiral LaRoque and Col. Tibbets. I, too, can see the viewpoint of each. I tend to concur more with the Admiral's position that it is crazy to go to war against an ism. If there is a group of terrorists or fanatics in a given country, is it necessary to invade or destroy that country because it is the locale of terrorists? That is like killing a patient to destroy a cancer.

Which brings me to Col. Tibbets comment in favor of "nuking" terrorists. The value of nuclear weapons is their immense power of destruction. Yes, civilian casualties are inevitable these days; but do you kill thousands and destroy homes, buildings, infrastructure to eliminate a relatively small number of terrorists? Even so, you cannot be assured that you've eliminated all of them.

In the matter of checks for HIV virus, there is quite a difference between immunization and mandatory tests for STD's. Immunizations are known to be effective. Generally, they are a one-time thing. How often should one be tested for STD's? How does a test for STD's that shows negative today assure that the person will not subsequently test positive sometime later?

Really? It may be the "safest" but I have my doubts as to its absolute purity. I would think twice before having a blood transfusion.

Part of my mind is wondering about the connection between Activism and Self-Interest. Obviously we become active on behalf of something which we believe affects us personally -- our records in the local library, our medical records, our ability to speak freely, etc. Maybe that is why many of us can't get worked up about AIDS because it is not something we believe affects us personally. Yes, millions (not thousands) are dying around the world -- but tough! That's not affecting us.
But then what about this cloning situation? That's not affecting us personally either so why do some of us get worked up? Is it because it is a personal emotional situation but AIDS is not? Is it because it touches upon our religious/spiritual beliefs and in that way affects us personally? Jane asks:-"Are some of you worried somebody might learn of the books you check out of the local library, but you don't care if the government has a law that FORCES you to have certain medical tests and makes these results known to everyone and forces you into treatment?"
Just what is it that makes us an ACTIVIST?

Robby

Aviacqua, I was talking about attitude. We have to start somewhere before people we love start dropping like flies. I've already had too many friends die because of AIDS.

Mal

Studs quotes Normal Lloyd as saying:-"People are more cynical, feel more helpless. They don't believe something else will happen."
Are we all feeling helpless about AIDS. It is more powerful than we are so we might as well not take any action?

Robby

Robbie, that sounds like the cop out that non-voters use. "Well there's no sense in casting my vote, it won't make a differnece anyway!!"

AIDS Action

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National HIV testing sites. Locate a site
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What, in your experience, has had to, or will have to die before we reach the point where all we have left is hope. And how have you kept it alive?

Gail

Here is THE LATEST on cloning although I have come to the conclusion that most folks here don't believe any Activism is necessary in this area. Apparently it is accepted.

Robby

On a much lighter note (or maybe it isn't), Valentine's Day is causing a flurry of Activity on the part of men (why should it always be men?)whose Hope is not yet dying when it comes to their Loved One. The men in this discussion group might be interested in some ADVICE given by a woman on what women want.

Robby

GAIL G, I'm not sure I understand your question, but I'll tell you it would take a lot for hope to die for me. I felt pretty discouraged one time when I was sitting in this wheelchair with more pain than usual; I was thousands of dollars in debt, didn't have a penny to my name; my car had conked out. My companion for 18 years, Theresa Mary calico cat, died; we were at war; and my computer -- which is one of the two accesses I have to the outside world -- collapsed for good. I kept hoping we wouldn't have the ice storm that was predicted so the electricity wouldn't go off, and it was a beautiful day.

What the Korean scientists have done is one of the most important breakthroughs the scientific world has ever known. I have no religious reason for objecting to it. In my mind it is the avenue to finding cures for illnesses like Alzheimer's and dozens of other diseases and paralytic conditions caused by injury and illness which are incurable right now. I remember how I felt when Jonas Salk at last came up with a polio vaccine that is safe and works. It was too late for me, but I thought it was one of the most wonderful scientific achievements in medicine I'd ever known. I still do.

Cloning of stem cells is in an embryonic stage right now, to make a pun, but it is not too early to think about limits and restrictions which should be placed on it so cloning is used only therapeutically. There must be laws worldwide about this and careful monitoring, not just by governments. It is up to us the people to see that this is done. Vigilance is the word we all must remember. In my opinion, this is how we must be activists about this.

On Valentine's Day or any other day, no woman should want to be anorexic-looking and top heavy with silicone, or restricted by padding and stays, thank you. I expect no Valentine's cards or gifts from anyone, since I don't give any. I did make my four year old granddaughter a Valentine web page last night which has an animated cat in a basket on it. I think it will make her happy on Valentine's Day.

Mal

As far as cloning is concerned, the genii is out of the bottle. We can take a "moral" position and avoid giving people who could benefit from the results the help they need, or we can put our heads in the sand like ostriches while the population of the rest of the world benefits. You can NEVER put the genii back in the bottle.

I was so upset when the doctor wanted to give my husband a blood transfusion after his hip replacement the nurse got the head of the hospital blood bank to come and talk to me. I STILL very much resent that he was not able to donate his own blood in case a transfusion was necessary. They would not allow him to do this at the hospital; we would have had to go to a Medic facility 40 miles away, and we just could not do that. If anyone here is considering a knee or hip relplacement they should donate (for their own use only) at least several weeks ahead. The physician pooh-poohed my concern.

Over 500 posts in two weeks - that is amazing!!

I posted yesterday, but must have hit a wrong key as my message was lost. First I wanted to say that this discussion prompted me to get my absentee ballot for the November election which I feel may be one of the more important elections in our history. While this discussion is not supposed to be about politics, every topic being discussed has political overtones.

I am reading a work of fiction, Balance of Power by Richard North Patterson. I neither recommend or critisize the book but just want to observe that the book reads like it is factual. And it is getting me very angry because I feel hopeless about changing the issues discussed in the book. These include - the gun lobby, the media, self serving political parties, manipulation of facts by politicians, control of the media. The list goes on and is at the expense of the American citizen. We should have better government than we have at the moment and I blame both parties. Blame is easy; solving the problem is not and that is why I feel frustrated and hopeless.

The United States, through its government, is trying to sell democracy to the rest of the world and in fact make the rest of the world in our own image. Just think about that for a moment. I can understand why the Muslim world would find our approach unacceptable. The issue is whether a secular nation can understand its moral and ethical responsiblities when it feels threatened. This is a great test for a so called democracy and one that we seem to be failing at the moment.

There was an article in the New Yorker a few weeks ago about the failure of American foreign policy (sorry, I do not have my copy and cannot supply the title or author). Much like the Romans of old, the US is trying to establish an empire. This may in fact be 'good' for the world at large but only if approached in a manner that elicits cooperation among our friends and not antagonism. The article pointed out that certain neocons in Washington believe that the US has the moral, legal, and absolute right to impose ourselves throughout the world in the interest of world peace. We are, after all, the greatest super power with the most lethal weapons; some believe that we should win by force what we cannot win with argument and discussion. I am paraphrasing badly but you get my drift.

This post rambles far too much - but then this discussion seems open ended and lends itself to rambling. An "Activist" is someone who does something for a cause (Robbie). I have taken a mini, mini step in getting a ballot for next November.

Perhaps if members of Senior Net could encourage people to vote (not taking a side politically) we might be able to increase the number of people voting. People do not vote because they feel that their vote does not mean much. They are expressing a lack of hope. Maybe that is a theme that Senior Net could urge upon groups like the League of Women's Voters. "Express your hope in America - VOTE" It is your right - it is your obligation.

"We gotta do somethin about this"

Mal, today in the paper someone was speaking about the point that "cloning is messing with creation and playing God." That angered me. What have physicians been doing using artificial breathing mechanisms, for whatever reasons, that sustain life that our "creator" may not want sustained. How is that any different?

Ursa, I am in full agreement. At one pint in my life I donated blood whenever I could. When I wished to donate MY OWN blood for a beloved friend who was undergoing surgery (we matched) they refused me and told me that my pint would go into the "blood bank." I argued for days with whoever would listen and our request was still rejected! ERGO, I do NOT donate anymore. That is a sad reflection.

Well, here's a "gov" spot:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/values.html

It may read different ways to each of us.

Opinion by Paul Krugman

I found it completely biased because all it mentioned was the POSITIVE aspects of the proposed budget.

It never mentioned the trillions that will be spent on going to Mars while we have hungry and starving, not in A country being helped by foreign aid, but right here in the USA. Another trillion to be used for marriage counseling which I find, should be at the absolute bottom of the priority list in the grand scheme of things.

Do you not feel uncomfortable when required to give so much personal information when you want to logon to a site? If for no other reason, it can be Spam city, the new mode as in teller marketers? Just wondering....

Michael Powell, the guy who runs the FCC, and the guy who objected to the exposure of Janet's breast most vociferously, is now proposing new regulations for television. The Hays office returns and with it comes the days of sexless entertainment. Remember the movies in which married couples slept in twin beds and passionately excited lovers shook hands? Well, those regulations are on our door step just waiting for the President to make another choice for his wards- the American people.

The President has put us so far behind in the scientific race to understand therapeutic cloning, we may never recover. Investment in research in the US has dried up and the scientists who might have found a way to replace defective human parts are all doing something else. That's too bad. But have HOPE. Election day is coming and with that comes the chance to play "catch up" in a life giving field of medicine."

CAMPER, as a webmaster, I can see some of the reasons why other webmasters want information from people who log onto their sites. If I think what they ask is unreasonable, or think the site is insecure, I go somewhere else.

AOL 9.0 filters out a lot of Spam mail, so I don't receive much. Not one telemarketer has called me since I signed up for no calls.

Mal

At present, stem cells are primarily used in transplant medicine to regenerate a patient's blood and immune system after they have been treated with chemotherapy and/or radiation to destroy cancer cells. At the same time the chemotherapy and radiation destroys the cancer cells in a patient, they also destroy stem cells. Therefore, an infusion, or transplantation of stem cells is performed after the chemotherapy and/or radiation treatment, and these stem cells migrate to the patient's bone marrow where they will reproduce, creating a new blood and immune system for the patient.

The transplant procedure involves three phases. In the first phase, lasting 5 to 14 days, the recipient is prepared for the graft (tissue). In the second phase, stem cells are procured from a compatible donor and intravenously administered to the recipient. The third phase is a period of waiting for the stem cells to engraft and function normally in the recipient.

The future use of stem cells for many other therapies looks unbelievably promising. The problem has been finding enough cells from compatible donors. The breakthrough of the Koreans would go a long way toward solving this problem.

Dr. Leon R. Kass, chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics, is calling for federal legislation to stop human cloning for any purpose. But the progess of science will not be stopped by such misguided legislation. We should continue to discuss the issues surrounding therapeutic cloning. But we live in a global village; if scientists cannot work in the U.S., they will go elsewhere.

Years ago, when abortion was illegal in the U.S., we had a two-tiered health system. Those who could afford it went to countries where abortion was legal. Others took the risks that have been described in this discussion.

I can still remember how horrified people were when the first baby conceived by in vitro fertilization was born. This procedure has now become more or less routine. There will always be those trying to hold back the tides. I'll be surprised if they ever succeed.

Someone earlier mentioned John Gaddis' work. He has a new book out that I have not read. However, I have read two earlier books by Gaddis and some journal articles. He has been considered an expert on the "Cold War". Gaddis is a guy who does not hesitate to reneg on a position if he later thinks he was wrong. He is often on the frontier in historical writing. The Yaley's are lucky they have him.

The new book, I have read in review, takes the position that preemptive strikes and unilateralism are old methods in US foreign policy. Further, that there is such a thing as a "Grand Strategy" that has governed presidential decisions in the past. A third proposition suggests that George Bush is a "generalist" thinker as opposed to one who bears some specialized knowledge.

I should read the new book before commenting. But I can say from my own observations, that George Bush appears to be a man with no specialized knowledge- a generalist- who comes to us laden with unfortunate biases that have caused great harm.

" preemptive strikes and unilateralism are old methods in US foreign policy."

This is true. Remember the fifties. that doesn't make them either right or successful.

Joan K ; What action do you have in mind? Korea was a response to an attack by the Hanoi Government. It was preventive rather than pre-emtive and there was a coalition. I have been hard pressed to find evidence of previous pre-emptive strikes by the US. The Spanish-American War is a close one. We perceived an attack on the USS Maine in Havana Harbour but the attack turned out to be a false perception aided and abetted by Hearst newspapers.

JUSTIN: I wasn't thinking of Korea, but of numerous "police actions" where we aent the marines in here or there. Over so quickly, that no one remembers.

I remember but will wait for others to responnd as I am usuraly an observer due to time. We should Not try to rule the world is my thought and charity starts at home as I believe we must be Strong here and then Help others.

Speaking of Hope...

The Chicken Hangers Written and photographed by Russell Cobb / Laurel, Mississippi Published Monday, February 2, 2004 IDENTIFY (News and Analysis) http://inthefray.com/html/article.php?sid=208&mode=thread&order=0

President Bush has proposed an overhaul of the nation’s immigration laws that could provide broad new rights to millions of undocumented workers. But how are they faring now? A look at how immigrant workers from Mexico are changing the face of the poultry industry in the South.

Chicken processing is a dirty business, but no job in a poultry plant is more dreaded than "live hang." Here, workers known as "chicken hangers" grab birds by their feet and sling them on to fast-moving metal hooks. This is the first - and dirtiest - stage of poultry processing. The birds, weighing approximately five pounds each, fight back by pecking, biting, and scratching the hangers, who wear plastic cones around their forearms to shield off chicken attacks. Then, as workers finally hoist the birds onto the hooks, the chickens urinate and defecate out of desperation, often hitting the workers below.

The next stage - the "kill room" - may be bloodier, but most of the work there is done by laser-sharpened buzz-saws; only rarely does a chicken slip past the saw with its throat intact. Although no one has figured out how to sanitize the nasty job of hanging chickens, poultry managers pride themselves on the efficiency of their plants. One plant manager in Laurel, Mississippi, described his plant to me as "an automobile factory in reverse: They put cars together, we take chickens apart."

Like many immigrant workers in the poultry industry, Esteban - a Veracruz, Mexico, native in his early twenties - agreed to work in "live hang" only because it paid slightly better than other positions at the Peco Foods plant in Bay Springs, Mississippi. Nestled in the rolling hills of southern Mississippi’s "Pine Belt," Bay Springs feels like a twenty-first century company town: Peco employs approximately 800 workers, while the total population of Bay Springs is around 2,000. At $8 an hour, chicken hangers at the Bay Springs plant make $1 to $1.50 more than other workers who debone, package, eviscerate, or kill chickens in other parts of the plant. In an industry with some of the highest turnover rates and lowest wages in the nation, chicken hanging has the highest turnover of any position. According to one manager I spoke to, workers in "live hang" rarely last a week before they ask to be transferred to another position. Others simply disappear, never to return to the chicken plant.

"You think you'd last a week here?" the manager asked me as he opened a door to the plant’s live hang room. For about five seconds, I watched men in a dark, sweltering room, (the darkness supposedly calms the chickens) struggle with a blur of feathers, dirt and blood. A conveyor belt dumped chickens on the ground and about five men wrestled to get them on the hooks before the next load arrived.

"I probably wouldn't last an hour," I responded.

Despite the bleak conditions, Esteban flourished in his new job. With closely cropped hair, a slight build, and a collection of NBA T- shirts, Esteban had the air of a bright-eyed teenager. As an undocumented worker who spoke no English, he made the most of his limited opportunities in Mississippi; he got along well with his line supervisor and claims to have been able to hang over forty five-pound chickens per minute, an incredible feat considering the hazards of the job.

Then, after a year on the job, Julio Gordo, a manager at Peco Foods, called Esteban into his office. (To protect his identity, Julio Gordo is a pseudonym.) According to Esteban, Gordo told him that the Social Security Administration had notified Peco Foods that Esteban’s Social Security Number had repeated as a number for another worker.

If you wish to read more, please use the link at the top of this post. There is much more.

Linda

In Studs' book Herb Mitgang says:-"We've forgotten what we fought for in World War Two -- Freedom from poverty - the worst terrorism of all."
I agree with that. At times when houses in my area burn down and the Red Cross moves in to help them, they find that the family had been barely living from day to day never mind now losing their house.Here are some statistics on POVERTY AND FOOD WASTAGE in America. It's disgusting!
I would imagine that many of the immigrants of whom Linda speaks are among these poverty-stricken people.

Robby

Robby,

Thanks for the link in post 545. Read it with interest. Did you notice that in the report that it did not include SENIOR CITIZENS! Wonder Why.

A good question, Moxi. We might want to find out.

Robby

Here is a LINK related to Seniors and Hunger and Poverty.

Robby

MOXIE, yes, why didn't they include seniors living below the poverty line? I've noticed that many of the people who post in SeniorNet are quite comfortable, going on cruises, travelling in their RV's, going to Bashes, buying new cars, digital cameras, clothes and so forth. There are some, especially single and divorced women and widows, who are not in that position. We should take advantage of everything that's offered to us, including food stamps, disability allowances and subsidized housing, I believe. It's not easy to be a poor senior when you're socked with medical bills and medication costs. Then it's a choice of whether to buy medicine or eat. That's no choice at all. This is hard to believe in the richest country in the world.

There are many chicken processing plants here in North Carolina with migrant workers, legal and illegal, holding those jobs. A few years ago there was a terrible fire in one these plants here. People were trapped and died because of lack of exits. Hopefully, that situation has changed. It's a good thing for me to investigate and be an activist about. I don't know why I haven't thought of it before now! Sometimes the things that need our help through activism are right under our noses, and we don't even see them.

Mal

Perhaps we could all say the same thing Mal said. "It's a good thing for me to investigate and be an activist about. I don't know why I haven't thought of it before now! Sometimes the things that need our help through activism are right under our noses, and we don't even see them."
That is the whole purpose of Studs' book -- to get us roused up and DOING something, not just complaining, about the problems we see.

Robby

This is such a fascinating book and such a stimulating group that I have ordered the book- better to keep up with you. However I have become a lurker(how I hate that word!)so shall probably just read the posts-as I have done for over ayear now in SoC.

Thanks to all of you for giving me so much pleasure.

Mary W:-NO! NO! NO! A lurker can occasionally come in and share thoughts whether she has the book or not -- Just as you do in SofC.

Robby

How about being called an observer that's the word I use as I do Not care for the word lurker either. There is Big difference between the word lurker and the word observer. "Right"?

I don't know if I can say everything I wish to say about poverty in one short post. There is too much to say. When someone is poor, they have neither hope nor courage. After suffering from poverty a long long time, years, they just give up the fight.

To be an activist we need health and strength, we need to believe in the future, (hope) and to hang in there. Not be deterred by negative comment, sneers, put-downs, bad publicity. I believe that visible activists are born that way.

I remember very well, I never could forget, our years of poverty during the depression and if my mother never gave up, it is because she had hope for our future that she transferred to us. She didn't complain, rant and rave about the injustice she was suffering. She took the means at her disposal to protest and she succeeded by sheer determination and patience. She didn't join women's movements, she was too busy at home making sure we were not getting hurt by our dismal environment.

There is a kind of activism that doesn't make headlines, but it gets results. My mother was a woman of few words and numerous forceful actions. She fought her battles her own way and if she didn't personally benefit from social justice, she gave us ample tools to fight our own battles.

Eloïse

GINGER you are abolutely right. Lurker is so voyeuristic! It's almost a six letter dir wrd.

One reason for my interest in this discussion group is the fact that I have been an activist all of my adult life. I was reared in a family that believed passionately that ll people were brothers. When I was quite young i accompanied grownups delivering baskets of food for those less fortunate than we. At the age of nine or ten I went to the Shrine Hospital for Crippled Children to play with the patients-a wonderful experience. We became friends-not well or ill-just friends-and enjoyed being together. We shared our sorrow as we lost a young friend from time to time.At fourteen I read to the blind once a week.I had a pretty good foundation in caring and responsibility for others

As a stay at home Mom I had all the duties that all Moms share-carpooling, extra curricular activities, participation in school groups plus accompanying my husband in many of his community activities. We had mived to a state wher the political climate was notoriously bad. The voters registration and balloting and treatment of minorities by many of the registrars of voting were unbelievably biased. Never a marching activist I spent over fifty years working for voting reform. In 1948 or '49 I joined the League of Women Voters, learned how to effect reforms and worked my you know what off for most of my life after that.It was like a graduate course in Government I learned how to write a Bill, how to get to the legislature,How to explain the bill to the public by speaking to groups which ranged in size from a small mens Bible class to the Chamber of Commerce. With ferver and hard work we achieved permanent registration,replaced paper ballots with voting machines(state of the art then)and got rid of many of the worst registrars in our state.In addition I was able to serve on boards of directors which I felt were important.

It was a fullfilling life I had. Had because I can no longer do all of those things. Now I am homebound. My participation is limited to making phone calls, supporting those political organizations I agree with and swearing a lot at the news programs that offend me.

The above are some of the reasons that this book and this group delight me.

Nevertheless, I am still an observer. Have probably run the table with this post.

It is painully apparent that one important skill to which I was never exposed is that of typing! Hope you can read this.

One thing I'd like to add- if anyone needs information on absentee voting or locations of polling places or a way to get to the polls call the LWV or the AAUW. One or the other will be able to help you.

Robby: Thanks for the post regarding Senior Citizens. I find that what was written is very very true. And believe me Hope has not died among the seniors that I interact with on a daily basis in my community were I live.

Below is Obit that was sent to me by a former high school classmate. Thought we all here might enjoy it. _____________________________________________________________________

OBITUARY
> > > > Today we mourn the passing > > of a beloved old friend by the name of > > Common Sense > > who has been with us for many years. > > > > No one knows for sure how old he was > > since his birth records > > were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. > > > > He will be remembered > > as having cultivated such value lessons as > > knowing when to come in out of the rain, > > why the early bird gets the worm and > > that life isn't always fair. > > > > Common Sense > > lived by simple, sound financial policies > > (don't spend more than you earn) > > and reliable parenting strategies > > (adults, not kids, are in charge). > > > > His health began to rapidly deteriorate > > when well intentioned but overbearing regulations > > were set in place. > > > > Reports of a six-year-old boy > > charged with sexual harassment > > for kissing a classmate; > > teens suspended from school > > for using mouthwash after lunch; > > and a teacher fired > > for reprimanding an unruly student, > > only worsened his condition. > > > > It declined even further > > when schools were required to get parental consent > > to administer aspirin to a student; > > but, could not inform the parents > > when a student became pregnant > > and wanted to have an abortion. > > > > Finally, > > Common sense lost the will to live > > as the Ten Commandments became contraband; > > churches became businesses; > > and criminals received better treatment > > than their victims. > > > > Common Sense finally gave up the ghost > > after a woman failed to realize > > that a steaming cup of coffee was hot, > > she spilled a bit in her lap, > > and was awarded a huge settlement. > > > > Common Sense > > was preceded in death > > by his parents, Truth and Trust, > > his wife, Discretion; > > his daughter, Responsibility; > > and his son, Reason. > > > > He is survived by two stepbrothers; > > My Rights and Ima Whiner. > > > > Not many attended his funeral > > because so few realized he was gone. > > If you still know him pass this on, > > if not join the majority and do nothing.

Mary W:-You are an inspiration! You are an example of exactly what Studs' book is about. I won't comment any further as your post says it completely.
Moxi:-Thank you so much for sharing that "Obit." I have printed it out and many of my friends are going to receive that.

Robby

The poor that the VFW, AML, Moose, and Eagles help especially at Thanksgiving and Christmas is with food, clothing etc. but are Very closely checked to make sure that they are Not selling the things for money for drugs etc.

We visit the VFW war Vets in the Vets hospital and take personal things we are alowed to give to them.

In this country we have so many people loseing there jobs at this time it is hard to keep up with all that have become destitue while Our goverment is helping other countries and allowing Our jobs to go over seas for the rich to get richer. I must stop even tho I have low blood presure I must Not let it get sky high.

Moxi. You have said a mouthful of truths.

Ginger:-While we don't recommend high blood pressure, this discussion group IS the place where we SHOULD shout, pound the table and, even better, take action such as you are doing.

Robby

From an observer. Ginger

I think most of us posting here have been active in one way or another throughout our lifetimes and many of us still are. No, we are not out marching and carrying banners or things like that anymore. But we do still, write letters, make phone calls and serve on committees that make decisions which affect the well being of others. We came from a generation of do-gooders.

My "hope" is that this trait will continue on throughout all of the generations to come.

I too have printed the obit for commonsense and will share it with many. My grandchildren will be told how his brother logic took up the torch.

A hearty welcome to Mary who is not a lurker or an observer - she is a member of our Kitchen Group sitting around Robby's table. Here, guys and gals, I brought some cookies and tea. Help yourselves and get cozy.

I was talking to some parents of grown children the other day and they were discussing how much their grown children are earning. One is a millionaire and the others are making lots of money, too. One says when there are parties or dinner given there are $100 dollar bills coming from everywhere. The parents were amazed that their children were in similar jobs: Title Work and related work. I wonder why this is paying so incredibly well. Does it have to do somewhere somehow about tax breaks? Too much money at the top and not enough at the bottom. So where will we, the middle class, end up?

In Studs' book somewhere it says we need to be humane - feed the poor, the needy, help the sick, the elderly (ahem!) and spread our wealth to other countries as well. I was unaware that we aren't doing much at all to help other countries. I guess we are now depending on churches to do that.

We need to step aside from ourselves and give more of our time, energies, compassion to our families, our neighbors, cities. And let's write lots of letters to our reps in our state and federal offices and anything and everything that bothers us. If you have a great idea - tell them about it.

Linda

I've finally caught up. It seems I am just about where most of you are in Studs' book.

Robbie, I was going to answer your question, but basically, like many non-mobile seniors, I act through my computer and telephone. Oh yes...I'm sure Amazon.com has a record of the books I buy, and the government has a record of every on-line petition I sign. So be it.

But I want to tell you of another kind of activism...of a group of wonderful people who not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. It is called "Heart to Heart" and it is associated with the Catholic Church just across the street from me.

Their basic goal is to keep Seniors in their homes as long as possible by offering them rides to appointments or shopping, visitors if you're alone, phone calls to be sure all is well. At holiday time a lovely older lady brought me a gift of home baked cookies, fruit, and a Courrier and Ives Calendar.

I am not Catholic, but St. Gertrudes doesn't care. And yesterday I received a Valentine Card, hand made and signed by the staff. They have been witten up in Chicago papers, and will be the model for other groups with the same goal. In reaching out to the neighborhood, they also keep a lovely old area stable.

I read the "Second Harvest" site. My son almost became the web producer. Every once in a while there is a radio commercial with Laura Bush asking people to get involved in "Second Harvest". I would like to ask her what she does for the poor, the elderly.

I told you about "Heart to Heart" which helps many of us (as Jesse Jackson said) "keep hope alive!

I am not a Catholic and don't have a lot of time for the Vatican. However I have met some Nuns and Priests who are very wonderful Christian people. The Nun who was our Chaplain at the Hospice and cared for my husband along with our Pastor. She was an amazing woman and had a gift for connecting with the dying. Many of the local Catholic Churches do amazing work in the community. Have a lot of time for the people who represent these churches. Nana you are very fortunate to have Sister Joan in the neighbourhood. I call the work they do really making a difference.

When we talk about hunger and poverty, are we talking about how the rich treat the poor? Or, according to this NY TIMES ABSTRACT are we being unfair to the rich?
What creates hunger? What creates poverty? Are the rich doing their share to combat it?

Robby

Nana - your Heart to Heart Group sounds wonderful. Can you tell me more about it? I think that would be a good thing for any group - churches, schools, neighborhoods, etc., etc. What a thoughtful thing to do. It would provide someone to talk with, some connection with the community and the HOPE that they can stay home longer before having to go to another place.

Thanks again, Linda

Well, adding a little more...

I read today in Studs' book that to get hope you need power. Gather people around you and someone who can do you good. Even call the police to back you, if necessary. this man enabled a whole neighborhood to change, built new schools, inspected the grocery stores to see if they were taking proper care of the food, updated houses - turned a "bad" neighborhood into a new one and did this in other cities as well.

I have an ailing husband at home, so I do what I can online, too. Especially sharing articles and helping people to be informed. Lord knows the media isn't telling us everything that's going on.

I read the articule and it mentioned that the percentage was on there income tax report well we all know that the rich take as many deductions as posiable and many have been caught cheating on there deductions so I cannot but help wondering if it is an acurate report?

Doubting Thomas here er a doubting Ginger

For Linda-- You and I go back a couple of years to the Bells Palsy episode. I have thought of you often and wondered how you were faring but had no way to contact you. Please e-mail me to let me know how you are now. Hank Evans

I found this speech by the actor, Tim Robbins, to the Press Club today. In my opinion, he says some important things, not just to the press, but to all of us.
"For all of the ugliness and tragedy of 9-11, there was a brief period afterward where I held a great hope, in the midst of the tears and shocked faces of New Yorkers, in the midst of the lethal air we breathed as we worked at Ground Zero, in the midst of my children's terror at being so close to this crime against humanity, in the midst of all this, I held on to a glimmer of hope in the naive assumption that something good could come out of it.

"I imagined our leaders seizing upon this moment of unity in America, this moment when no one wanted to talk about Democrat versus Republican, white versus black, or any of the other ridiculous divisions that dominate our public discourse. I imagined our leaders going on television telling the citizens that although we all want to be at Ground Zero, we can't, but there is work that is needed to be done all over America. Our help is needed at community centers to tutor children, to teach them to read. Our work is needed at old-age homes to visit the lonely and infirmed; in gutted neighborhoods to rebuild housing and clean up parks, and convert abandoned lots to baseball fields. I imagined leadership that would take this incredible energy, this generosity of spirit and create a new unity in America born out of the chaos and tragedy of 9/11, a new unity that would send a message to terrorists everywhere: If you attack us, we will become stronger, cleaner, better educated, and more unified. You will strengthen our commitment to justice and democracy by your inhumane attacks on us. Like a Phoenix out of the fire, we will be reborn.

"And then came the speech: You are either with us or against us. And the bombing began. And the old paradigm was restored as our leader encouraged us to show our patriotism by shopping and by volunteering to join groups that would turn in their neighbor for any suspicious behavior.

". . . since 9-11, we have seen our democracy compromised by fear and hatred. Basic inalienable rights, due process, the sanctity of the home have been quickly compromised in a climate of fear. A unified American public has grown bitterly divided, and a world population that had profound sympathy and support for us has grown contemptuous and distrustful, viewing us as we once viewed the Soviet Union, as a rogue state.

"A relative tells me that a history teacher tells his 11-year-old son, my nephew, that Susan Sarandon (Robbins' wife) is endangering the troops by her opposition to the war. Another teacher in a different school asks our niece if we are coming to the school play. They're not welcome here, said the molder of young minds.

"A teacher in another nephew's school is fired for wearing a T- shirt with a peace sign on it. And a friend of the family tells of listening to the radio down South as the talk radio host calls for the murder of a prominent anti-war activist. Death threats have appeared on other prominent anti-war activists' doorsteps for their views. Relatives of ours have received threatening e-mails and phone calls. And my 13-year-old boy, who has done nothing to anybody, has recently been embarrassed and humiliated by a sadistic creep who writes -- or, rather, scratches his column with his fingernails in dirt.

". . . the United Way canceled Susan's (Robbins' wife, Susan Sarandon) appearance at a conference on women's leadership. And both of us last week were told that both we and the First Amendment were not welcome at the Baseball Hall of Fame.

"And here in Washington, Helen Thomas finds herself banished to the back of the room and uncalled on after asking Ari Fleischer whether our showing prisoners of war at Guantanamo Bay on television violated the Geneva Convention.

:"A chill wind is blowing in this nation. A message is being sent through the White House and its allies in talk radio and Clear Channel and Cooperstown. If you oppose this administration, there can and will be ramifications.

"Every day, the air waves are filled with warnings, veiled and unveiled threats, spewed invective and hatred directed at any voice of dissent. And the public, like so many relatives and friends that I saw this weekend, sit in mute opposition and fear. I am sick of hearing about Hollywood being against this war.

"Today, prominent politicians who have decried violence in movies -- the "Blame Hollywooders," if you will -- recently voted to give our current president the power to unleash real violence in our current war. They want us to stop the fictional violence but are okay with the real kind.

"And these same people that tolerate the real violence of war don't want to see the result of it on the nightly news. Unlike the rest of the world, our news coverage of this war remains sanitized, without a glimpse of the blood and gore inflicted upon our soldiers or the women and children in Iraq. Violence as a concept, an abstraction -- it's very strange.

"As we applaud the hard-edged realism of the opening battle scene of "Saving Private Ryan," we cringe at the thought of seeing the same on the nightly news. We are told it would be pornographic. We want no part of reality in real life. We demand that war be painstakingly realized on the screen, but that war remain imagined and conceptualized in real life.

"In this time when a citizenry applauds the liberation of a country as it lives in fear of its own freedom, when an administration official releases an attack ad questioning the patriotism of a legless Vietnam veteran running for Congress, when people all over the country fear reprisal if they use their right to free speech, it is time to get angry. It is time to get fierce. And it doesn't take much to shift the tide. My 11-year-old nephew, mentioned earlier, a shy kid who never talks in class, stood up to his history teacher who was questioning Susan's patriotism. 'That's my aunt you're talking about. Stop it.' And the stunned teacher backtracks and began stammering compliments in embarrassment.

"Our ability to disagree, and our inherent right to question our leaders and criticize their actions define who we are. To allow those rights to be taken away out of fear, to punish people for their beliefs, to limit access in the news media to differing opinions is to acknowledge our democracy's defeat. These are challenging times. There is a wave of hate that seeks to divide us -- right and left, pro-war and anti-war. In the name of my 11-year-old nephew, and all the other unreported victims of this hostile and unproductive environment of fear, let us try to find our common ground as a nation. Let us celebrate this grand and glorious experiment that has survived for 227 years. To do so we must honor and fight vigilantly for the things that unite us -- like freedom, the First Amendment and, yes, baseball."

Source:

A chill wind is blowing in this nation

What Tim Robbins' speech says to me is that if an 11 year old boy can tell his teacher to "Stop it", we can do the same. Our methods of activism don't have to be large, splashy ones. Speaking your mind to your neighbor about what you believe is right for your country, instead of being hypocritically polite and saying, "Well, you may be right" and backing down, is one way to be an activist. We don't have to march in protests, carry banners and placards to pass the word around.

Robbins says, ". . . there is work that is needed to be done all over America. Our help is needed at community centers to tutor children, to teach them to read. Our work is needed at old-age homes to visit the lonely and infirmed; in gutted neighborhoods to rebuild housing and clean up parks, and convert abandoned lots to baseball fields." If we can't get out and do these things, we can help organize the groups which are able to.

Bette Midler has done a wonderful thing in New York City through her work with the New York Restoration Project. Disreputable corners of that city which breed negativity, foster drug use and crime, and generally pull it down, have been turned into parks through her efforts. Whole neighborhoods have changed because of what's been done to turn alleyways into gardens. I'm sure there are spots where you live which need help like this to make your city a better place to live and help create a better America for all of us.

Mal

I just finished my income tax for 2003. Or I should say, my computer and a tax program did it for me after I entered the information.

My BIG HOPE still continues to be for a fair and equatable flat tax where at the end of the year it is a simple multiplication of your rate times your income.

Better yet for those who are math impaired, use a tax table.

The only lying and cheating would be on those under-the-table cash payments. We could put a stop to that if all payments were by check or plastic, which would discourage cheating.

However, there are still the deadbeats who do not pay up. The IRS does not have the personnel or the resources to collect the billions (I read a report that puts this figure at $58 billion of taxes owed from past years nor the auditing resources to catch those citizens who have no respect for the rest of the honest tax payers.

YES, THAT IS MY CONINUING HOPE.

Further comments by Herb Mitgang in his chapter by Studs:-
"I've had a stroke. I figure the best thing I can do is personal therapy, to keep writing and not give up. So I type with one hand, with my left hand, one finger of my left hand. Fortunately, I'm a lefty.
"I'm going to keep going. Good things happen."

Robby

A very interesting article - a Chill Wind- Malryn. I fear that this is all too true. How do we fight it?

If the government looks at my amazon account they will be very confused. I buy books online for the Public Library, using funds raised by our local Friends of the Library. LOL

Supposedly "they" can find out what books you are buying in book stores, too. I don't know how. I usually pay cash or use a gift card.

I have ordered a couple of books so I suppose that stands out glaringly.

Tim Robbins' speech was right on. I hope there is more and more of this and no one shuts up - ever.

Yes, he hit the nail on the head. We expected so much more and it never came. It turned ugly and dirty and scary.

"All things are possible to him that believeth."

~ Mark 9:23

Do you folks believe that?

"All things are possible to him that believeth."

~ Mark 9:23

Do you folks believe that?

"He that lives upon hope will die fasting."

--Benjamin Franklin

Thanks, Mal, for the Robbins speech. I sent it to my family.

Tim Robbins is right. The news coverage of this war has failed us. I see no body bags on the six o'clock news but our American dead now number in excess of 500. Do we just slip them into the country unnoticed? Are there no casualty lists? No wounded coming home?

Why is it we see so few protesters? Is the news media ignoring the activities of protestors? Is there collusion between the giant news gatherers and the government? This war and this administration may be ok with the news conglomerates but a conglomerate is not doing the dying. It is the children of ordinary US citizens who are doing the dying. I do not understand why we hear little or nothing from public protestors. Presidential lies committed us to this travesty and yet the country appears to be silent.

Here are a couple of sentences from THIS EXCELLENT ARTICLE about the growth of journalism in colonial America.
"The most noteworthy weakness in these early newspapers, especially those printed in the first decade or two of the century, was a lack of controversial coverage. If, as had been famously declared, a newspaper's job is to 'raise hell,' then early publications such as Campbell's Boston NewsLetter barely raised an eyebrow. The main reason was control by government authorities, who feared the power of even a fledgling press. The First Amendment, which promised freedom of the press, was not to come until 1791."
I do see comments about body-bags in newspapers. When the term "media" is used, are we almost always talking about TV?

Robby

Do you want to know who owns the news you read? Read this FACTUAL ARTICLE and be amazed at what is happening before your very eyes!
Have you looked over the Heading above in detail recently? Has your blood come to a boil yet? Or have you given up on "burning and raving?"

Robby

I read somewhere that Bush wanted no TV coverage of bodies coming home. I can't remember the details now.

Lately when I've spoken of media - I am thinking of newspapers, magazines, TV, whatever.

In Miami the naysayers were not treated very well when the unions hit the streets. That's when they started cordoning off protesters. They've also been roughed up a bit and proably some put in jail. People are afraid to protest maybe. There is a big one scheduled for March 20. I'll send a link when I can.

Yep, here's a link: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/

and www.moveon.org is a mover and shaker, too.

There's all the difference in the world between the President not wanting there to be any coverage of the bodies being returned and the TV media not being there to take pictures. If I were the owner of a truly FREE media, I would answer "You don't want it -- so what?" Why is there no ACTIVISM on the part of the TV media against this censorship? And why is there no ACTIVISM on the part of the advertisers who pay for these media?
Why do we always blame the "government" for everything?

Robby

Robby - if the govt of the day is corporation friendly you will find they will be less than unbiased in the news coverage in most cases. The media corporations are there to make money in the first instance not there to be a public service although thats why newspapers were set up in the first place. The media like every other business will not bite the hand that feeds it. Tax cuts have been wonderful for the media and for the highly paid people who work in that industry.

Carolyn

To the Apostle Mark I say two things: Believe in what? Belief in God or anything else without acting on those beliefs accomplishes nothing.

Ben Franklin is right. Hope alone doesn't put food on the table. What good is a wish list if you don't work toward what you hope for?

It reminds me of some writers who have come into the Writers Exchange WREX. They've detailed the plot of a novel and given a brilliant title, but when it comes to writing, they talk a lot about what they're going to do, and don't do anything. What good are an outline and a title all by themselves? No good, no good at all.

There are two original political poems on a site here in SeniorNet that bash what I believe in. I'm held back from responding -- first because people frown on political talk in a non-political forum. Secondly, I don't want to start something and face the risk of being reprimanded by someone in authority in SeniorNet, or risk being asked not to post in that discussion again. These things have happened to me before when something I've posted has been taken as a personal attack by someone. The Writers Exchange WREX is always in my mind because it's important to me and a lot of Seniors, and I can't risk damaging it, or take the risk of being asked to leave SeniorNet.

I wonder sometimes what holds people back when it comes to Activism. Is it things like this?

Mal

I just took the risk.

I think what is happening with the deceased soldiers is that they are brought to an army base on the East Coast (maybe Fort Bragg) and I believe I read somewhere that they are all being buried there. +++++++++++++++++++++++

ACTION ALERT * UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE http://www.unitedforpeace.org | 212-868-5545 To subscribe, visit http://www.unitedforpeace.org/email =========================================== Thanks so much to everyone who responded to our urgent appeal for funds last week, to support the organizing work for March 20, the global day of action on the one-year anniversary of the Iraq War. We have nearly reached our early February goal of $20,000. We’re still a few thousand short, so if you haven’t made your contribution yet, please donate today by visiting http://www.unitedforpeace.org

IN THIS UPDATE: 1. Dozens of March 20 events now planned around U.S. 2. Military families and veterans to rally at Ft. Bragg 3. NYC: Joint march and rally planned

MARCH 20 AROUND THE UNITED STATES Crawford, Texas; Milwaukee, Wisconsin; Long Beach, California; Tallahassee, Florida: These are just a few of the dozens of communities large and small around the United States where March 20 events are already planned.

Now is the time to plan your community’s involvement in this global day of action. We in the United States have a special responsibility to take to the streets on the one-year anniversary of the Iraq War to show the depth of U.S. opposition to the Bush Administration’s policies of war and occupation.

Join the day of action! List your community’s event on the United for Peace and Justice website at: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/calendar_gxinput.php

Visit our website for leaflets that can be adapted for use in any community planning a March 20 event: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/mar20

MILITARY FAMILIES AND VETERANS TO RALLY AT FT. BRAGG On March 20th, as the world once again says NO! to war, military families and veterans of the military will take center stage in Fayetteville, North Carolina – the home of Fort Bragg -- as the North Carolina Coalition for Peace and Justice demands that the United States government provide REAL support for G..I.’s and other military personnel by bringing them home now.

This rally will draw attention to the stop-loss policy that keeps personnel in the service beyond the time that they originally committed to, inadequate psychological and emotional services for military personnel and their families, and other key issues of interest to military families and veterans. It will also demand that the government commit billions to education and the creation of jobs, not war and occupations.

Visit http://www.ncpeacehub.org/ for more information, or contact Bryan Proffitt at bproffitt33@yahoo.com

NEW YORK CITY: JOINT MARCH & RALLY PLANNED Plans are moving ahead for a major East Coast regional mobilization in New York City for March 20. An agreement has recently been reached between two coalitions for a joint march and rally in New York City. United for Peace and Justice makes this announcement on behalf of the March 20th Mobilizing Committee, the coalition of national anti-war coalitions we pulled together. Below you will find the joint statement issued by the two coalitions.

The New York City March 20 event will begin at noon in Midtown Manhattan; details about location are still being negotiated with the police and parks department. Check our website at http://www.unitedforpeace.org/nyc for updates, and if you’re not already receiving our separate New York City action alerts, sign up at http://www.unitedforpeace.org/email

Visit our website at http://www.unitedforpeace.org/nyc for downloadable NYC March 20 leaflets, plus a ride and housing board. You can also pick up leaflets and stickers at our New York City office during normal business hours: 351 W. 41st Street, 5th floor (between 8th & 9th Avenues); 212-868-5545.

The next general mobilizing meeting for March 20 in New York City will take place on Tuesday, February 17 at 6:30PM, at 235 W. 23rd Street (between 7th & 8th Avenues). All are welcome to attend.

Member groups of the March 20th Mobilizing Committee include: - United for Peace and Justice - National Youth and Student Peace Coalition - US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation - Not in Our Name - Campus Anti-War Network - And others

The U.S. occupation of Iraq has spiraled into a living nightmare without end as the death toll mounts daily. Here at home, new questions are asked about why this war ever happened, but the Bush Administration continues to lie and evade the truth, hoping people will forget by Election Day.

Now is the time for the voices of peace and justice to speak out. On March 20th a clear, strong message must be sent to the Bush Administration: “End the Occupation of Iraq! Bring the Troops Home! Now!”

The war against Iraq and the military and corporate occupation of that country are tied to other critically important issues. As we build the March 20th demonstrations around the country, we will help draw out the connections that must be made. Precisely because it is an election year, now is the time to put the largest possible number of people in the streets.

JOINT STATEMENT BETWEEN MARCH 20th MOBILIZING COMMITTEE AND MARCH 20th NATIONAL COALITION CONCERNING NEW YORK CITY MARCH AND RALLY

On March 20th, the one year anniversary of the U.S. war against Iraq, a Global Day of Action will bring hundreds of thousands of people into the streets in cities around the world. In New York City the March 20th Mobilizing Committee and the March 20th National Coalition are organizing a unified demonstration opposing the criminal and empire-building policies of the Bush administration and their impact abroad and at home. We will march for an end to the U.S. occupation and corporate control of Iraq and to bring the troops home now. We will march for an end to the occupation of Palestine. We will march to fund human needs, restore cuts in social programs and against the ever-expanding attacks on all immigrants, labor rights and everyone's civil liberties - and we will stand united against racism here and abroad. We represent diverse communities and organizations opposed to the Bush Administration policies for many reasons, but on March 20th we will march together. By working together our two coalitions are confident we will mobilize a massive turnout on March 20th and send a strong, clear message.

========================================= MARCH 20: The World STILL Says No to War! Global Day of Protest on the One-Year Anniversary of the Iraq War Visit http://www.unitedforpeace.org/mar20 to endorse, download leaflets, find a list of local protests, and more

Linda:-The name of the military post escapes me but it is in Delaware. It is my understanding that all the deceased military are brought there and later are transferred to various areas of the U.S. for burial.
P.S. I just found it. It is Dover Air Force Base. I am quoting here from the NY Times.
"The Bush administration, in its eagerness to convince the public that things are going well in Iraq, is leading troops into battle, while trying its best to obscure what happens to them. President Bush is not attending soldier funerals, as previous presidents have, avoiding a television image that could sow doubts in viewers' minds. He avoids mentioning the American dead -- and the injured, who are seven times as numerous. The Pentagon has sent out emphatic reminders that television and photographic coverage is not allowed of coffins returning to Dover Air Force Base."

Robby

Some of you might be interested in joining in on one of these or it's interesting to know what is going on. Tell your sons and daughters and grands - maybe they would love to join in, too.Just thought I'd pass this info along. Don't mean to hog the boards here.

****************************Events - Forums - Conferences

Chicago - Feb. 15 - Black Freedom Fighters in Steel: The Struggle for Democratic Unionism

Boston-Cambridge - Feb. 15 - "The Militarization of Science and Space" - a talk by Professor Noam Chomsky

New York - Feb. 17 - PoetrySpeaks! - A Celebration of Art and Performance

March 4 - 20 Historians Against the War Launch Teach-In Campaign Against War and Occupation

Global Studies Association Conference: "Globalization, Empire and Resistance" - Brandeis University - Waltham, Mass - Apr. 23 - 25, 2004

Another Boston is possible. Another world is possible (July 23-25)

==========

Chicago - Feb. 15 - Black Freedom Fighters in Steel: The Struggle for Democratic Unionism

First Unitarian Church Labor Task Force/Social Justice Council Presents:

Black Freedom Fighters in Steel: The Struggle for Democratic Unionism By Dr. Ruth Needleman, Cornell University Press

Join Dr. Ruth Needleman in a discussion of the role of African American steelworkers in their struggle for justice on the job and democracy in their union.

Sunday, February 15 - 11:45 AM Chris Moore Parlor - First Unitarian Church 5650 S. Woodlawn Av

===========

Boston-Cambridge - Feb. 15 - "The Militarization of Science and Space" - a talk by Professor Noam Chomsky

Sunday February 15 2004, at 1PM Please arrive early

Kresge Auditorium Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Directions and map below)

Free and open to the public

Sponsored by: the Technology and Culture Forum http://web.mit.edu/tac/www the MIT Social Justice Cooperative http://web.mit.edu/justice/

Questions? Contact Patricia Weinmann weinmann@mit.edu 617 253 0108 Julia Steinberger julias@mit.edu 617 253 4816

==========

New York - Feb. 17 - PoetrySpeaks! - A Celebration of Art and Performance 7:00 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. The New School University, Tishman Auditorium 66 West 12th Street, NYC (between 5th and 6th Avenue)

The New York Chapter of the Recording Academy is proud to present "PoetrySpeaks! A Celebration of Art and Culture." A joint panel discussion and performance showcase, the program will explore spoken word's impact on popular music and culture. Confirmed participants include famed hip-hop artist and host of Russell Simmon's "Def Poetry Jam" on HBO Mos Def, poets Sonia Sanchez, Camille Yarbrough, Toni Blackman, Imhotep Gary Byrd and Bruce George.

There is no charge for the event and it is open to the public. Advance free tickets are available on a first come, first served basis at The New School University box office. Please call 212.229.5488 for tickets.

This GRAMMY Education event is presented by the New York Chapter of the Recording Academy and sponsored by Akila Worksongs, the New School University's Institute For Urban Education, Wolfson Center For National Affairs and the Nuyorican Poets Café.

For details, click on www.grammy.com/newyork.aspx

==========

March 4 - 20 Historians Against the War Launch Teach-In Campaign Against War and Occupation

Friends and supporters of Historians Against the War,

Below is HAW's Call for March 4-20 Teach-Ins Against War and Occupation. This is the major effort we are making this spring to oppose the Bush Administration's reckless and deceitful policies, as part of the larger movement-wide mobilization on March 20, the anniversary of the war's beginning.

We hope you will immediately begin networking with fellow historians and other scholars for a Teach-In or similar educational event sometime between March 4 and March 20. This is a great opportunity to link-up with students and community activists. Please let us know what you are planning as soon as possible, and check our website regularly for updated lists of action and new organizing materials.

In solidarity, Van Gosse and Andor Skotnes, Co-Chairs, Historians Against the War

Historians Against the War Launch Teach-In Campaign Against War and Occupation March 4-20, 2004

Historians Against the War (HAW) urges all historians to help organize and participate in mobilizations around the United States leading up to the March 20 Global Day of Action against War and Occupation. We call for historians, teachers and historically-minded activists to organize teach-ins and other public meetings of high school, college, and university students during the weeks immediately preceding March 20, beginning with the March 4 "Books Not Bombs" actions organized by the National Youth and Student Peace Coalition (www.nyspc.net).

On March 20, 2003, the United States invaded Iraq with a force that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld proclaimed would "shock and awe" into submission not only Iraq but any other country the Bush administration declared "evil." Historians Against the War participated in the historic worldwide mobilization of public opinion against this bloody assertion of global U.S. domination, warning that it posed a deadly threat to the future peace of the world and to civil liberties and social justice at home and abroad.

Our warnings have been born out. The death toll from the Bush administration's military occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan continues to rise. Every day more American soldiers sent to occupy Iraq are killed or wounded, while the number of Iraqis killed, wounded or surviving amid devastation and chaos as a result of the invasion remains a closely guarded secret. No-longer secret testimony from prominent officials has confirmed our suspicion that Iraq's alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction and ties to Al Qaeda did not exist. It is now apparent to most of the public that the administration's public case for launching the war was based on lies.

Here at home the "War on Terrorism" has been used to justify secretive internment of aliens, police surveillance of meetings, telephones, and computer use, and Congressional investigation of Middle Eastern Studies programs. While military and occupation costs devour the federal funds, budget deficits drive state and local governments to slash expenditures for education at all levels and to drive tuition fees steadily upward.

HAW urges all those who have signed its statement against the war and occupation of Iraq to assist students in their localities in enlisting the participation of scholars with a variety of points of view, including supporters of the Bush administration's policies: not only historians, but also others with valuable knowledge of the Middle East, U.S. foreign policy, and globalization. Students want and deserve to encounter many different perspectives and points of view.

Veterans of the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and members of their families have formed Military Families Speak Out. That organization is prepared to provide participants for teach-ins at various places around the country. For further information about military families, e-mail Nancy Lesson at mfso@mfso.org. To list your planned teach-in or a related meeting, email teachins@historiansagainstwar.org. For updates on where teach-ins are happening and to check for organizing and educational materials, visit our website at www.historiansagainstwar.org. Information on "Books Not Bombs" and contact information for local student groups in your area can be located via http://www.campusactivism.org/booksnotbombs/.

Visit our web page at http://www.historiansagainstwar.org

==========

Global Studies Association Conference: "Globalization, Empire and Resistance" - Brandeis University - Waltham, Mass - Apr. 23 - 25, 2004

See website for questions: http://www.globalstudiesasso

Hairy: Bring the troops home is not the message I would wish to send. Whether we like it or not Bush is our President. He has, in our name, attacked another sovereign power and released forces he can neither control nor step away from. Iraq is a nightmare. We can not leave Iraq without establishing a stable representative government and that means quelling the violence first. Our troops must bear the cost of Bush's willfull aggression. We will lose people but that is the price we must pay for accepting a Court chosen President. At this moment in history, what Bush does in Iraq is the responsibility of the American people and we can not, in good conscience, walk away from it.

Robby; Can you give me date and details on the NYT article addressing the Presidential ban on photos of body bags. I think I will prepare some letters to the editor on the subject.

I am very glad to see that democracy is alive and well in the USA -such a lot of things going on in Linda's post. I wish all of the causes well.

Justin:-That NY Times article dated November 9, 2003 was headlined: "What World War I's Greatest Poet Would Say About Hiding Our War Dead."

Robby

Mal: Taking a risk deserves an "Atta Girl."

The next chapter is about Tom Hayden and I'm sure that practically everyone here knows who he is. In this chapter he says:-"I was a dreamer. Then I realized because of the civil rights movement, that it was not just a matter of learning more about the world, but of trying to change the world. I saw Martin Luther King on the streets, and it changed me. It made ma a part of something -- an advocate. I became a troublemaker."
The term "troublemaker" seems to have a negative connotation. When I was a boy in a Boy Scout troop, there was a time when I was temporarily kicked out of the troop. (Ironically many years later I became a Scout Executive but that's another story).
I was an active Scout and believed in the program but did not agree at one particular time with something the Scoutmaster was doing. I was a Patrol Leader and got the boys in my patrol to do something contrary to what the Scoutmaster wanted. This led him to finally kicking me out and saying at the time:-"Iadeluca, you're a good leader but you lead them in the wrong direction." Ultimately, we came to an agreement and I was allowed back in.
I was a troublemaker and, as I look back, I'm not ashamed of it. During the decade I worked for the Federal Government, I was also a troublemaker at times. The Chief of the Institute in which I was employed described me as an "unguided missile."

Robby

Justin, how on earth can we or anybody else establish a "stable representative government" in Iraq? That is the LAST thing many of those people want. I saw a headline this morning that the Muslim proposal would put women right back in their position of abject subservience. I believe there is nothing we can do to avert full civil war; these folks are going to have to fight it out for themselves. We don't need to sacrifice any more of our sons and daughters on this false altar. It's too bad Bush involved us for it is as hopeless as Viet Nam. We certainly didn't establish a representative government there; the French couldn't do it either.

Ursa - I totally agree with you and before the war I said as much. There are three opposing factions - four if you count the Kurds and only a despotic ruler kept that country together albeit in an iron grip.

Today it seems that anyone who questions, disagrees with, or shakes the status quo in any way is called a troublemaker. I refuse to accept anything on blind faith, or anything that isn't backed up with proof. That makes me a troublemaker.

Mal

Ha - you are so right Mal! Up with the troublemakers.

Carolyn

A stable representative government in Iraq may be too much to expect. I don't know what Bush's goals are. He doesn't seem to have any that the public knows. We are expected to have blind faith in his powers. Meanwhile, the killing continues. If we pull out, I am sure you are right, Ursa, civil war will ensue.

We had a similar problem in Yugoslavia. Tito held that conglomerate together with an iron fist. When he departed the civil wars began and they have not yet ended.

There are unfinished problems, our problems, around the world. Korea is unfinished. Viet Namn is troublesome.

In Iraq, Bush was focused on Saddam and not on the people. In Afghanistan he was focused on the Taliban and not on the people.

I can't help thinking that the worst thing that has happened to this country was the appointment of Bush as President. He lies and our children pay for his lies.

Up with the troublemakers is right!!

I agree with Ursa and Kiwi lady. We just don't know how to establish a stable democratic government in a pre-industrial society with no history of such a government, as I said in an earlier post. I couldn't believe at the time we went in there that anyone believed that. The "best" ??? we could do is establish a strong dictator that would keep things quiet, maybe help them industrialise. Am I right that it seems to be harder for dictatorships to flourish in an industrial country?

Am I correct that the only thing that interests the majority of participants here is what Bush is or is not doing and that the preference is to make this just one more of the political discussion groups on Senior Net?

Robby

There is little relationship between free multiplexed industrial activity and dictatorship. Single and dual industry countries are easier to control by a dictatorship. The dictator works hand in glove with the industrialist just as dictators have worked with religious leaders in the past to control the populace. However, there are too many examples of heavily industrialized countries like pre war Germany and Italy where a dictatorship has been successful, to generalize. Hitler had Speers to interact with Krupp, Volkswagon, and others. It is probably the case that industry in Germany aided the dictatorship in achieving power.

No, Robby,you are not correct in assuming that Bush and his troubles are all that interests us. Several other topics have been covered and many others will be covered before we are finished with HOPE. However, Bush is such a painful thorn in our side at the moment that I think we must purge ourselves of the frustration of putting up with him. As a result, the conversation can not help but include Bush from time to time. After all, it is not just Bush we are concerned about. It is the results of his policies that trouble us primarily.

The upcoming topic is Tom Hayden. He became an activist against the war in Viet Namn and reading his piece in HOPE caused me to wonder where the the protestors are in this war. They seem to be nameless, faceless and silent.

Robby how do you separate activism from Politics? You can't. Is your comment a form of censorship?

There's much in Studs Terkel's book that we haven't explored. If we do not examine various ways we can be active and various issues to act upon, we could become bogged down with the upcoming election.

I'd like to hear some opinions about Tom Hayden, for example. Do you think he was wrong or misguided in what he did? In the 60's and 70's young people saw the need for change, and they did something about it. I'd like to see a movement like that right now. It doesn't have to be young people who do this. We elders have power I don't think we use. Apathy can be a dangerous thing. Do you see any of Tom Hayden's zeal and fight in you?

Mal

Mal I think there are many who have the passion of Tom Hayden. I think people like us can make a difference because we have the time to put our views across on talkback radio, write and question our Politicians and let them know our feelings on certain issues. (Our PM has had a few letters from me recently). We can join protest organisations and if we cannot go to the protests we can fold leaflets or make banners. There is a lot we can do.

What "Talk-back radio" is that Carolyn?

Here in Chicago, WLS AM radio carries Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Drudge on Sunday. There is exactly one talk show allowed for the rest of us shmoes, and it's on from midnight to 4AM on Saturday night. That's it!

There are products that I boycott, as there are movie people I will not watch, even on TV.

HAIRY, Heart to Heart has an email address. I don't think it's up to date or very active. My son offered to update their system, but he hasn't heard a word. Try Heart2HeartIL@aol.com. Otherwise, email me. This is an activist parish! Next week a young neighbor and her 1 year old are coming to visit.

I have a beef right now with the DNC and MoveOn who have co-opted Howard Dean's words and campaign. I have E-Mailed both and thus far I have received "Thank you for your comments" emails in return.

Hairy, this March 20th thing sounds like it will hit here. Whatever theFeb.15th thing was, it didn't even make it to TV.

Wondering how to be an Activist? Here is a whole LIST OF TIPS on how to get started.
Within this link is a whole score of other links to stimulate your thinking.

Robby

Posts 608 and 609 are correct. If we are discussing activism, and I believe that is what Terkel is all about, then the discussion will necessarily be political. Since the US is governed by the most conservative political leaders in my memory and since these same leaders seek to fundamentally change politics in the US (and it would seem the Middle East), it is only natural that this group of Seniors would probably be most critical of current American politics and programs.

I do not post often as I am reading the book unsystematically and picking and choosing the order of which chapter happens to interest me. I did find the writings of the two military men provacative.

In my mind I separate "political" from "Political" with a capital P. Many of us, if not most of us, think of political activity as taking some action related to our views concerning the decisions of the President or the Congress or the Supreme Court. We can take action "against" them by protesting in one form or another. This type of Activism is "anti."
But I also think of the type of Activism which is "pro" -- which is an action, not a reaction.
For example -- what, if any, action are we as individuals or groups taking on behalf of those children who commit crimes but are convicted as adults, buying only those products which are not harmful, publicizing of inhumane killing of animals for various reasons, turning in people who we know are selling drugs, speaking up for better schools, protesting against capital punishment, planting trees in public areas, changing the way newspapers report, improving our roads, etc., etc., etc.
These actions are usually local as compared to protests against national decisions.

Robby

"I love America more than any other country in the world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."

~~James Baldwin

Robert: Most of the issues you mentioned ARE political. I've worked and protested and lobbied for a group called "Georgians against Gun Violence." It involved working to change gun laws during the congressional sessions in Georgia and rest of the year with the Federal Congress. Then also joining protests of other childrens groups. Also have protested the "School of the Americias" There are at least 6,000 people that protest at the gates of Fort Benning EVERY year And again it's political. Re the SOA there are people there every year of different ages. College students to senior citizens. They come from all over the country.Usually by bus or car. And spend the weekend at the gates. Then some will cross the line onto the base and usually get arrested.If they have done it before they will end up having to go to jail for several months.

http://www.soaw.org/new/article.php?id=697#CD

People protest for or against a lot of issues that they believe in. It goes on around the country all the time. But now they are using the "Free speech Zones" that keeps people out of view of the President. The press have always been quite silent about these protests and their will be a very small bleep on the local news. That is unless the protest becomes violent and then it makes the National news.

Jeriron:-You say "now they are using the "Free speech Zones" that keeps people out of view of the President.
But now you're back to national issues again and how the Federal Government is reacting. Are you running into "free speech zones" when you act on behalf of local issues?

Robby

Robert:

Truthfully I really can't say because I haven't done anything locally for a while. But anything that involves the President "Free speech zones" are used. They were when he was in Atlanta a few weeks ago.At least thats what the protest sites and the newspapers said. I stay away from anything that Bush is at. Too many people have been pushed around during the protests.

I remember protesting at Newt Gingriches office (Atlanta) several years ago and people that backed his views get pretty nasty. I haven't found that happening at Fort Benning. Even the police treated everyone with respect. Everyone is getting searched now though.

My book is here and I lov it!

To be current I read Tom Haydens piece first. To preface--Hayden is the age of our sons. I am of the generation with whose wor,d his generation was "unhappy" Understandable. Many of us were unhappy with our world.

On the next page he writes "The beginning of the sixties was an extradinary period of hope" John Kennedy was a breath of fresh air to them and to me, I might add. Did they not stop to say "hey, this man is not one of us, he is the age of our parents whom we do not trust or believe?. Isn't it strange that those who effected the changes he applauds (and belittles) were none of his generation? They may have been inadequate measures but they were long overdue steps in the rigt direction. Think about John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson and The inspiritional somewhat younger Martin Luther King.

His generation certainly provided a spur toward reforms and legislation that were necessary but it's hard for me to reconcile his distaste for a generation which gave him hope.

Tis a puzzlement. More later, Hank

I like to go into a website that is publishing Pepys diary day-by-day, so you can see what he was doing on this day in 1661. Today, Feb 17 was Sunday. He heard a sermon by an Irish preacher who quoted “Scatter them, O Lord, that delight in war.” Pepys was furious, and called the preacher "tedious, unreasonable, and impertinent".

Some political arguements never change.

The site is http://www.pepysdiary.com/

I think activism of any almost any kind is ultimately political. Mobilizing opinion and/or protesting is generally directed for or against the policies of government. I have heard it said that most people prefer it when government does very little--just provides a peaceful environment for people's "pursuit of happiness." But government hardly ever does very little. This is not a good reelection platform. So we will always have more than enough to protest and mobilize about. )

Think Globally;

Act Locally

I think the Big issue are at the National level and the smaller ones are at the local level.

As I said I volunteered for Georgians Against Gun Violence and that was local but it was political. Trying to change laws is always political. This issue involves both local and National politics.

Isn't acting on behalf of a local poorly-run school a Big Issue? Isn't that part of the educational system in our nation? Does that necessarily involve changing a law?
Isn't marching in front of a local TV station which broadcasts smutty programs a Big Issue? Isn't the station part of a larger network? Does that involve changing a law?
Isn't planting bushes and trees in a local park a Big Issue? Isn't the park part of the overall national environment? Does that involve changing a law?
I don't agree that everything is Political (with a capital P) or that a law is always involved. An old expression in my time was "Let George do it" meaning let someone else do it, this many times meaning the "government" whoever that may be. And the term "government" in turn means everybody else but me.
Another expression is "everybody's business is nobody's business."

Robby

It is natural that in an election year, we think in terms of which party reflects our views more closely, but all of the issues we have talked about are bigger than this election, and none of them are going to be solved by the election results alone. Even if the party we like wins, we will still have to be active.

It is part of the "sound bite" mentality of our society to reduce politics to chosing one candidate over another.

Having said that, it is still true that the parties differ on important issues, and we need to vote and discuss our feelings.

Robert:

It's only a big issue if you consider it a big issue. I don't consider the three things you mentioned a big issue. You on the other hand might consider them a big issue.IMO Each person chooses what is important to him or her. I didn't say ALL issues are political I said MOST. Political doesn't always mean changing laws. But it does mean talking to ones county commissioner.

We wanted a light put at our entrance and that meant meeting with the county commissioner. Even planting a tree in a park would need permission from someome in authority. Very little is done without going through the political system. Even when protesting one needs a permit.

I have begun to notice that one national evening news television program is reporting details of KIA's. They are printed reports showing name, rank, branch, home town, date of death, cause of death.It's not much but it's something. No caskets. No body bags. And no voice over. Just the printed notice. Just how in hell are Americans supposed to know that war involves killing our boys, if we do not talk about it and show regrets. That's what bothers me about this war. There seem to be few regrets. It's just a job being done and someone else's kids are doing it. Americans, in general, are not engaged.

Tom Hayden, in the chapter about him in Studs' book, says:-"I was urging people to take action. Civil rights, peace demonstrations, taking back the university for students, questioning authority. They tried to put a leash on me, but I was stubborn. I resisted."
As I see it, that is Activism in its purist form and has nothing to do with national politics or elections.

Robby

Sort of sorry this is so long - but in another way I am glad that it is long. Sounds like it might right some wrongs and clear up some misunderstandings: =============================== Action Alerts 1. List of Events for National Day of Solidarity with Muslim, Arab and South Asian Immigrants

2. List of campaigns and resources for 2004 Elections

====

List of Events for** National Day of Solidarity with Muslim, Arab and South Asian Immigrants February 20, 2004*

(scroll down for your state)

_CALIFORNIA_ *

**Fresno, CA:*

Friday, February 20th, 6pm: *Join us for a Candlelight Vigil. Islamic Cultural Center of Fresno 2111 E Nees Ave.

Co-Sponsors: Fresno Center for Nonviolence, Peace Fresno, Women's International League for Peace & Freedom and others. Contact: Vickie Fouts (559) 658-8260 vmfout1@sti.net <mailto:vmfout1@sti.net>

Los Angeles, CA area:*

Thursday, February 19th, evening* Poetry of Solidarity on USC Campus. (details to come)

Friday, February 20th, during the day* Muslim, Arab, South Asian Cultural event on the Campus of the University of Southern California. (details to come)

Monday, February 23rd, 6:30pm* /(Please note this was previously scheduled for the 20th.)/ Interfaith worship service beginning at St Mark's Lutheran Church, 3651 S. Vermont with Muslim Christian and Jewish participants.

Candlelight Procession to the Mosque at the Corner of Exposition Blvd and Vermont. * Enter the Mosque and continue the interfaith service with a ritual of Friendship.

For info call: 805-907-2162

San Diego, CA area events:*

Friday, February 20th: * 1) A delegation of people from the San Diego community, including people of various faiths, will visit the *Islamic Center, or Mosque, on Balboa Avenue at 1:30pm*. We will have a banner in three languages (Urdu, Arabic & English) expressing our indignation at the "disappearing" of people from our communities, and expressing our solidarity with our Muslim, Arab and South Asian brothers and sisters, who have become the most villified under the Ashcroft "justice department and homeland security". We're going to have tables with blue triangles and flowers to give out, paper, enevelopes and stamps for people to write supportive letters on the spot to some of the detainees, including some detained right here in SD, who are America's disappeared. Amnesty International does it for people around the world . The idea is to help the detainees stay strong and bring attention to the fact that people are being disappeared right here into America's dungeons. Racial profiling is not acceptable to us and must be stopped. We won't accept it being done in the name of making us feel safer.

2) From *7:00 to 9:00pm*, there will be a *Night of Solidarity with Muslim, Arab and South Asian Immigrants* at the *Joyce Beers Community Center*, north of University Avenue on Vermont Street (between Terra and Aladdin restaurants). This will be a cultural event bringing together artists and individuals from the communities under attack as well as those who stand and defend them. *(See the attached flyer!)* **

* The February 20th Planning Committee in San Diego is comprised of: COSA (the Coalition of Student Advocates), La Resistencia, The ORGANIC (Opposing Repression Globally and Nurturing Independent Communities) Collective and PAN (the Progressive Activists' Network) at Cal State San Marcos. *

La Resistencia - San Diego Chapter 6161 El Cajon Blvd. #106, San Diego, CA 92115 (619) 497-1035 || laressandiego@juno.com <mailto:laressandiego@juno.com> http://www.laresistencia.org || http://www.bluetriangle.org http://www.stopsevis.org

San Francisco, CA area:*

Also see http://www.bluetrianglesf.org/

Thursday, February 19th:* San Francisco State University Day of Remembrance/Day of Solidarity forum put on by the Muslim Student Alliance of SFSU. 12:30 to 3 PM--Rosa Parks Room, Cesar Chavez Student Union. Speakers & film drawing the connections between the Japanese American experience and the repression today. (More info: msasfsu@yahoo.com <mailto:msasfsu@yahoo.com>)

Friday, February 20th:* San Francisco: Truck/car caravan thru S.F. neighborhoods--with banners, leaflets, bullhorns and blue triangles we will raise the call of solidarity and resistance.

Chinatown (Portsmouth Sq.) 11 AM to 12:30 PM There will be emphasis on the case of Capt. James Yee among the broader issues.

Tenderloin (Golden Gate and Jones) 1:00 PM to 2:00 PM With a rally in front of the Jones St. Masjid (mosque).

16th & Valencia 2:15 PM to 2:45 PM Drawing the similarities and links to the repression of the broader immigrant community.

24th & Mission 3:00 PM to 4:00 PM

Join us at any of these places to bring out the word of resistance to these communities. We will have leaflets in English, Chinese, Spanish and Arabic.

ALSO: You can help us prepare for the 20th by joining us on Friday, Feb. 13 for a day of preparation. For more info e-mail bluetrianglesf@yahoo.com < mailto:bluetrianglesf@yahoo.com> *

Friday, February 20th:* UC Berkeley Join students tabling and leafletting at Sproul Plaza (For more info: imad@uclink.berkeley.edu < mailto:imad@uclink.berkeley.edu>)

Friday, February 20th*: UC Davis Join students and teachers in leafletting and tabling at the Quad on campus. (For more info: smaira@ucdavis.edu < mailto:smaira@ucdavis.edu>)

Sunday, February 22th*: Newark Solidarity dinner 6 PM to 9 PM Mehran Restaurant, 5774 Mowry School Road $10 per person. Dinner and short presentations by speakers from different communities reflecting on the issues of solidarity and building resistance. Valiant voices such as Father Louie Vitale, Reverend John Oda and Reverend Michael Yoshii, among others, will be honored.

_*Hawai'i*_ *

Friday, February 20th, noon:* Refuse & Resist! activists will join members of UH-NION to leaflet the Call and distribute blue triangles at the University of Hawai`i-Manoa campus.

Friday, February 20th, 4-6pm:* Refuse & Resist! will do a street performance of the "First they Came for..." Niemoeller quote at Fort Street Mall, a major downtown bus terminus. They will also distribute the Call and the Blue Triangles.

Contact: Honolulu R&R! P.O. Box 521 Honolulu, HI 96809 phone: 808-598-4653 rnrHawaii@aol.com < mailto:rnrHawaii@aol.com>

_*ILLINOIS*_

Chicago, IL area:*

Saturday, February 21: STOP the Disappearances! JOIN THE CAR CARAVAN which will travel through north side neighborhoods en route to a solidarity rally on Devon Ave. - the center of Chicago's Pakistani community which has been devastated by deportations.

Gather at 10:00 a.m. in the parking lot of Our Lady of Mercy Church, 4432 N. Troy St. (1 block north of Montrose, 1 block east of Kedzie) 2 p.m. - Solidarity Rally on Devon Ave.

For more information, to endorse or donate: e-mail chicago@refuseandresist.org <mailtto:chicago@refuseandresist.org> or call 312-683-5194 or 773-216-5464 (Urdu)

CO-SPONSORED BY: Afghan News Network; Albany Park, NorthPark, Mayfair Neighbors for Peace and Justice; American Muslim Alliance; Arab American Action Network; Chicago Chapter of Refuse & Resist!; Chicago Coalition Against War & Racism; Chicago Coalition for Civil Liberties and Rights; Coalition of Pakistani Organizations; Democratic Socialists of America, Chicago Chapter; Logan Square Neighbors for Justice and Peace; Loyola Anti-War Network; Muslim Civil Rights Center; National Lawyers Guild, Chicago Chapter; Not In Our Name Project; Chicago; Pakistani-American Democratic Forum; Palestine Solidarity Group

Chicago Car Caravan is being held in conjunction with the 3rd National Day of Solidarity with Muslim, Arab and South Asian Immigrants

Download the Chicago Car Caravan flyer (PDF format) at: http://www.righttodissent.org/downloads/feb21caravan_fl

For other activism ideas, check out the Prison Education Initiative area here on Senior Net. Things are happening over there with lots of ideas and things that are being done.

Another "food for thought" article is:

The 10 Worst Corporations

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17783

Linda

Thank you, Linda, for those examples of Activism, many of which have nothing to do with national or even local Politics.

Robby

"Conditions in Afghanistan won't get a lot better any time soon. The military is expected to be involved in a big spring offensive against Al Qaeda that will probably mean more combat and less time for community projects. The participation of civilians, then, seems all the more important. But if it's too dangerous for them to be on the ground in Afghanistan, why not find other ways for them to participate? There are no ready models, but modern technology may be part of the answer.

"Here's one idea. American corporations, service clubs, education and health organizations could adopt villages and provide each with a generator to power donated computers and large-screen televisions. Then American and Afghan doctors, teachers, carpenters, soccer coaches and the like could appear in instructive software, videotape or television programming to supplement military efforts. Another possibility would be to convert one of those go-anywhere Afghan trucks into a classroom. Load it with computers and conferencing equipment and go from village to village."

Quoted from this article in today's New York Times:

How the Home Front Can Help by Tom Brokaw

Scientists speak up

Boston Globe 2/17/2004

"For years, doctors have faced a major obstacle in identifying and treating patients with HIV: One-third of those tested never claim their test results, which take up to two weeks. But physicians at Boston Medical Center believe they've found a solution in a rapid HIV test that shows results in 20 minutes.

"Physicians there now knock on the door of every overnight patient to ask if they want to be tested, and hospital officials have asked all primary care-doctors in the Urgent Care Center and the Yawkey Ambulatory Care Center to refer patients for testing.

"The test, called the OraQuick and made by Abbott Laboratories, requires medical staff to prick a patient's finger and squeeze a drop of blood into a special solution. A test strip detects antibodies to the human-immunodeficiency virus in 20 minutes. The one drawback is false positives, which is why any patient with a positive result is sent for the traditional blood test that takes two weeks.

" 'The real push is to make this test easy and convenient so people can start treatment sooner,' said Dr. Jeffrey Greenwald, who's heading the effort."

Peace demonstrations in the sixties had nothing to do with national politics or elections??? Come on, Robby!

But I agree with you. If this turns into a Bush-bashing session, it will be pretty pointless. Even though I hate Bush, I can bash him fine at home. This discussion should be more constructive.

It doesn't seem that we are discussing the book. But our views on activism and protests. That is the way it is turning out.

Mal, thank you for the references to Tom Brokaw's article and the one on scientists speaking out. Both give a clear message as to the lack of political foresight on the part of the US government. It seems to me that both parties are at fault.

Which leads to a feeling of frustration on my part (which may be widespread). How does one influence the current administration in any meaningful way. I took part in the Anti Vietnam marches and believe that these actions did, in fact, change the policy in Washington. I see nothing like that occuring today because the issues are diffuse and the country is divided almost evenly between staunch supporters of the administration and those who are just as vehement in their opposition.

You are correct, jeriron. This is my first attempt to join in Book Discussions and if this one is representative, I'll find other Discussions.

"Peace demonstrations in the sixties had nothing to do with national politics or elections???"
Did I say that, Joan? Gee, I don't remember saying that at all. Please give me the post where I said that. Of course, peace demonstrations were related to national attitudes.
Jeriron:-I am wondering if you read the first three postings in this new discussion group. Our views on activism and protests and our discussion of the book most definitely go together. As I said in those first posts, I consider Studs' book a "workbook." To discuss the behaviors of the people Studs interviewed and not to give our own views of activism would be pointless.
An analogy would be the discussion of Durant's volumes, "The Story of Civilization." We do not just read his words about Greece, Roman Empire, etc. We compare life of the Ancients with life now and his words become "living" and meaningful.

Robby

AVIACQUA and JERIRON, this is not a typical Books discussion. In his book, Hope Dies Last, Studs Terkel is advocating Activism, especially among middle aged and older people. We are using this book and what is in it about Activists as a springboard so we can find out own way to become Active about what we believe.

There are plenty of opportunities to discuss what is in the book, too. Some of us have posted quotes from the book and asked questions about what's in it, as you will see if you look through past posts.

When Robby Iadeluca led The Greatest Generation discussion, it opened up personal stories and thoughts among the participants about World War II, as well as discussion about what was in Tom Brokaw's book, and it was a very stimulating discussion. I see no reason why this one can't be, and isn't the same.

Mal

For those who entered this discussion late, here is a repeat of the first couple of posts.

robert b. iadeluca - 11:31am Jan 22, 2004 PST (#1 of 640) Books Discussion Leader My father had five brothers. When I was in my teens, just out of high school, I used to visit my grandparents and on occasional Sundays all seven of us men, which of course included myself, would find ourselves sitting around the dining room table and giving opinions.

Oh, did we have opinions! I was always precocious but my precociosity (I'm entitled to make up a word) was always accepted by my family. We gave opinions about the stock market, the coolies in China, the wisdom of New York's mayor (LaGuardia at that time), the condition of the school system, the possibility of war (it came to Europe two years later), the media (nine newspapers in NYC at that time but no TV), hunger in the world, how the pyramids were built (obviously we were all amateur engineers), the benefits of Italian food (did you think Iadeluca was an Irish name?), the future of the best baseball team in the nation (Brooklyn Dodgers of course), how to get along with women (I listened at that point), how to get a good job, why the Twentieth Century Limited train is able to get to Chicago so fast, animal rights, and on and on.

Our voices rose. We interrupted each other. We pounded the table. We looked at our "opponent" with disdain. Sarcasm might have entered the discourse -- debate? -- argument? What matter the title of the event. We had views and we gave them with no holds barred. We did tend to move along in some sort of organized fashion from one topic to another -- an organized chaos, if you will.

But you know what? No profanity ever. It was not part of our vocabulary. No commenting by one brother upon the character of the other. We even occasionally agreed. And we laughed. Oh, how we laughed. Sometimes laughing at the antics of someone else who was going to great lengths to prove a point. Sometimes laughing at ourselves. For an hour or two we took on the world.

Then out came the coffee and the pastries. Time for a breathing spell. Time to look inwardly and feel good about ourselves. We had opinions. We felt them strongly. And we had expressed them. Maybe we had changed someone else's mind and maybe we hadn't.

I repeat:- we took on the world. But make no mistake. It was not an exercise in public speaking. We were angry! We were angry at all the idiocy in this imperfect world. We didn't know if we could at that moment do anything about it but, by God, we were going to make our voices heard, even if only in the confines of one room. We were one step away from being activists.

A couple of us did take that step. One uncle used to stand on a corner in Times Square preaching the Marxist manifesto and selling the Daily Worker. Another uncle, an elevator operator, would trap an unsuspecting passenger between floors and get him to change his way of thinking. Many years later I, a World War II veteran, marched from Fordham University to the New York University uptown campus, being splattered with eggs on the way, as I helped protest the Vietnam War.

This is the spirit of this new discussion group. If ever you were extremely upset about something and wanted to speak up about it, this is the time and the place. Political views accepted? Of course. But if the only thing that bothers you in this life is the presidency, the congress, or the supreme court, or government in general, then you are thinking too narrowly and you are in the wrong forum. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL DISCUSSION GROUP. We will talk here about "people" and their relationships with other people. No topic here is too large and none is too miniscule.

This is the spirit in which Studs Terkel wrote his book, "Hope Dies Last." His book is about Activism. He quotes Thomas Paine's vision of America written in 1791:-"Freedom has been hunted round the globe. Reason was considered as rebellion. The slavery of fear had made men afraid to think." And Studs adds:-"Here is where the activists enter the picture, as they always have. Paine assumed a society not simply of citizens, but of thinking citizens."

Through the medium of his book Studs will be our guide as we move along. We will follow his 325-page book as he moves us from his quote of Jessie de la Cruz at the start:-"I feel there's gonna be a change, but we're the ones gonna do it, not the government" to the quote at the end of the book by Kathy Kelly:-"We're going to change our lifestyles."

Thinking is the byword. Let us give our opinions. Shouting is permitted. Table pounding is encouraged. And perhaps not interrupting the other person too much. Tell it like it is or how you think it should be!!

robert b. iadeluca - 12:04pm Jan 22, 2004 PST (#2 of 640) Books Discussion Leader Well, here I am. A discussion Leader for a new forum built around organized chaos. I know that no one can herd cats. And all you cats are out there meowing to come in and say your piece.

I keep thinking of the hot discussions around our dining room table. Chaos? Yes. But even without a written agenda, there was also a form of organization. It was built around COURTESY AND CONSIDERATION. If one uncle brought up a topic (let's say "hunger), and a couple of other uncles responded, a third uncle didn't interject with "What about that last Dodger game?" He waited until it seemed that the current topic was almost exhausted and then came in with that new thought.

You folks get the idea. Please keep in mind that you are in the Books & Literature section of SN and that we are reviewing Studs' book. Along with that we are giving our own personal concerns which were brought to mind by reading this book. That is the purpose of this forum. We will start at the book's beginning (Introduction) and will then go chapter by chapter. I have read the book throughly and you will be amazed how following the various chapters will give you every opportunity to get your personal concerns off your chest. Every chapter is built around "passion for justice." This is why you are here -- right?

Robby

Robby!

I don't have the book as yet, but from the different opinions I am reading I surmise:

Speak Up when you see something wrong and HOPE that others will do the same thing to correct the wrong. - Activist, yep!

Moxi:-We are only on the tenth chapter out of a total of 53 chapters so you will receive your book long before we are approaching the end.

Robby

I have been reading from the beginning and posted as time went by. Yet it seems that the discussion back and forth have become whether protests and activism are political with you on one side and me and a few others on the other. thats fine but nothing was mentioned by you about my posts other then whether you or I believe activism is political. That is more my argument then anything else.

ROBBY: in post number 629, you said

Tom Hayden, in the chapter about him in Studs' book, says:-"I was urging people to take action. Civil rights, peace demonstrations, taking back the university for students, questioning authority. They tried to put a leash on me, but I was stubborn. I resisted."

As I see it, that is Activism in its purist form and has nothing to do with national politics or elections.

Robby

We have no difference here. I think we both want this discussion to focus more on what we can DO. I'm just pointing out that it is almost impossible to separate many of the issues that we want to be active about from national politics.

If I demonstrate for peace, I'm demonstrating for peace, not against the Republicans. I don't know (unless I have a chance to find out) that the Democrats will do a better job of bringing peace, and if they don't, I will demonstrate again. Non-the-less, it was Bush's decision to go to war, and like any executive, he takes the responsibility for it.

There are many issues that could use activism that we would all agree on: world hunger, adopting an Afganistan village etc. But as individuals we don't restrict our activism to those. Someone else on this site may want to demonstrate for continuing our involvement in Iraq until we bring about peace. They would be just as much of an activist as me. It's the nature of activism that we won't agree.

Joan:-I stand corrected. At the time I was thinking of the students protesting on campus but, as you indicate, it was much wider than that.

Robby

You will want to know our Robby has been featured in a nice article in the News, here it is with a wonderful photo Late Bloomer.

Congratulations, Robby!

ginny

I too was surprised at the course the discussions take on this site. It is not your usual book review situation. It seems to always be more personal. I thought it would be more analytical of each interview and we would we would be reflecting as to the purpose and what the author had in mind when he wrote the book in the first place. Not to be. But sharing opinions is a good thing and I have enjoyed reading all the posts because I love hearing all sides.

WAY TO GO ROBBY: I see you've been out there making things happen your whole life. I'm not surprised!!

By the way, you would not have been the only senior in my graduate program. While I was only 54 when I got my graduate degree, a woman graduated with me who was eighty.

ROBBY - What a wonderful tribute !

Robby, you ain't just talkin' the talk here - you are walkin' the walk.

Congratulations on a well-deserved tribute. Robby has come to be for me the SeniorNet Studs Terkel. I have a great deal of respect for our host here.

Linda

I sent that article to Ginny so that she would know that, in addition to my work, I am publicizing Senior Net in my home town. I hadn't intended that she post it but I guess I should have known better. She doesn't miss a beat.

Robby

In a previous post, I mentioned the anti Vietnam marches and it occured to me that there seemed to be far more activism on college campuses and even in high schools in the '70's than there is today. Perhaps some of you are more aware of that scene than I am. And perhaps students today are more active locally than they are nationally.

Well thank you Ginny, for not missing a beat, and thank you Robby for being such an interesting and inspiring fellow!

Over here the students are too busy getting their degrees to protest they have to get in and get out as the student loans are so big and they have to start paying them off or be saddled with them when they are trying to buy a house. There was a doco just the other day about the lack of new thinking in the Universities the Professors say the kids are not interested in discussing Global or Local events and just want to know whether they are getting an A or not.I think we have a lot of kids who have no idea what is going on today as they are tunnel visioned mostly doing business studies.

Carolyn

That's a great article about you, ROBBY. I'm not really surprised at anything it says or anything you've accomplished and will accomplish in the future.

It did remind me that our friend and Discussion Leader, Lorrie Gorg, received her Bachelor of Arts degree when she was 70 years old. Not a mean accomplishment, either.

Mal

Robby! I am thrilled to have read such a fine tribute! Well deserved.

This was one of those sleepless nights so I just spent two hours reading all the posts since the last time. There are many ways to be an activists..and yes a lot of time they are political but in that area I prefer to make my own decisions...I read, I check the op -ed pages and read both sides and then I make my preference known in the voting booth.

What I do is mostly on a local basis..since I have lost so much of my hearing many of the ways where I used to help are no longer available. Two years ago I did join an organization called SHHH, self help for the hard of heaing and have become active in a local chapter. Whenever a local station fails to show reports in closed captioning I email them and as a chapter we let the Governor of Va know that during hurricane Isabel the stations did not use closed captioning to issue its warnings and what precautions we should take. He has now promised that will not happen again.

With the computer I have been able to contact city officials about some concerns and am now connected to a series of health care programs. I can email my doctors requesting information or questions about my appointments, test results, and prescriptions. I cannot use it for emergencies ..since that requires a call to the doctor itself. Through my public library I can now check the catalogue and ask for a book to be reserved for me, renew a book and check on the availability of DVDS as well as books. I tell everyone about seniornet and give out the url...and have taken material to libraries and senior homes and offered to help anyone who needs help with learning to use a computer in thier home. In fact I have even traveled an hour or more one way to help some that I met through the computer.

Improving aid for the hearing impaired is one thing I can do and helping others who cant help themselves in this area is important to me. I keep in touch via the computer with some who are nearly house bound and make sure they are doing all right.

One thing I am finding is more help from people who deal with hard of hearing persons. Now instead of trying to make me understand them or make me feel like I am an irritant because I no longer hear , they dont waste time ,they start writing me notes, and a doctor I saw Wed used an erasible chart to give me the information I needed and what pleased me most was the attitude of the people I dealt with..POSITIVE..these people will certainly be mentioned when someone asks me where to go.

Yes I know there are many causes out there. And some very important but I feel anything that helps all people is important. I can visit the sick, bake cookies or take a casserole to someone in need. My neighbors have been there for me and I am there for them. I have acted as an advocate for some members of my church who have no family and accompanied them to Drs appts, been there through thier surgeries and treatments. They are simple things but they are what I can do at this time of my life.

I do write my representatives at both the state and national level about bills or action I feel important.

One thing I am really concerned with is the message we send to our young people. Since my grandchildren are now between 14-3 the oldest has become my step granddaughter ...and my neighbors 17 year old is like a granddaughter to me..I guess I especially note the message we are sending to our girls. When I was shopping the other day it seems every magazine has information in headlines what women can do to attract a man and how to hold him. The clothes shown in magazines for young people and especially girls is meant to attract males. Now before someone says I am old fashioned ..let me say it first I AM OLD FASHIONED.....I believe in the equality of the sexes and feel we should be more concerned about all of our children getting a good education so they are able to support themselves and take care of themselves. I dont think any one unless they are disabled should have to rely on someone else to support them.And since I have a daughter who is helped by legislation for the blind and disabled I appreciate all the work that went into seeing that help is out there. I want young people to know they are valued and equal...and now I am trying to think of a good way to see what I can do in that area. I have always thought of this as caring but I see it is activism..Not the dramatic kind but still an important kind. anna

Anna:-What you are doing is exactly what I think the people in Studs' book are doing --
The organization SHHH forces a TV station to make a change and can now contact physicians by email, etc. and you, yourself, take material to libraries and Senior homes. You and others are making more people aware of how best to help those who can't hear such as the physician who writes on an erasible chart. You visit the sick and take food to the needy. You act as an advocate (an Activist word) for church members. You write your state and national representatives.
You say you are "Old Fashioned" and that what you are doing is not dramatic.
Carolyn says young folks today are "tunnel visioned" and have no idea what is going on.
Bravo to you, Anna, and I am beginning to wonder if Studs noticed this generational change and wrote the book for that reason.

Robby

ANNA, what you do for the hearing impaired is a very good example of activism, and very important. Through the years I have done what I could for people with addiction problems. Most of that I do online or on the phone now. Like you, I, too, am interested in getting information out to people who are disabled in one way or another. I suppose we don't think of this as Activist work, but, of course, it is.

I can't remember a time when women's magazines weren't full of ways to attract (and keep!) men. Nor can I remember a time in history when women's clothes were not designed to entice men. Back when you and I were teens, the "sweater girl" look was in with all those uplift bras that made us hope to look like Lana Turner. Legs were in, too. Betty Grable's legs were insured for a million dollars, as I recall.

Schools all had dress codes then, and they do today. The code of the high schools here can be found online. "No sheer clothes or anything that reveals the body" is part of that code. That means that pants which are barely on and tops that come nowhere near covering the navel which we see on TV are not allowed in school.

Until very recently, this house was often filled with teenagers, and none of the young women dressed anything like Britney Spears or JLo. Nor do the young women I see on the nearby UNC campus, or on the street. To me they all look alike because they dress alike. When anything's familiar, it gets to a point where you don't even see it.

I remember when we wore above-the-knee pleated skirts and bobby socks to school. A few years later, the skirts down to the ankles "New Look" was in. The pendulum swings. It wouldn't surprise me at all if all of a sudden young people decided the Victorian high neck, long skirt look is great.

At any rate, the young women I knew through my grandson are now very independently off to college studying things like Japanese, chemistry and engineering, and working part-time to help pay their tuition. I guess the message they received was not all that bad.

Mal

Below is a link to an interesting activist site which was posted in the Prison Initiative Discussion here in Books and Lit.

Tutor/Mentor Exchange

I am wondering if anyone here because of his/her Activist behavior was "ostracized" by family or others.
In Studs' book, Tom Hayden says:-"When I said I'm going to be an Activist, it broke my father's heart and he didn't speak to me for sixteen years. My mother would speak to me but in beseeching terms. I later learned that I was not alone in this experience."

Robby

An interesting site you may not have seen.

OpenDemocracy

A political urban myth

In his introduction, Studs quotes Roberta Lynch as saying:-"It's about action. You feel ordinary people can do extraordinary things."
Can THIS be considered a form of Activism?

Robby

The aunt and uncle who raised me in New England despised my attitude about Black people when I was in college and after I was married. After my marriage ended, my uncle said to me, "If you hadn't wasted so much time trying to help those N . . . . . s, you might still be married."

Mal

How fortunate we are to have you with us Robby. I brag about you to my children and grand children and tell them that there is no such thing as being 'old, look at what Robby does at 83.

I say to my family you can become frail and have an illness, but you should never 'retire' from being ACTIVE. The other day I had to fill out a form and one of the questions were: "Occupation" I always balk at that question because they also ask: Working? or Retired? I like to write down Alive!.

Staying alive is a full time job for frail people, it takes a lot of effort. What turns people off is negativeness and many seniors become negative in their thinking and in their actions and that causes others to think that we are all negative as we get older. Being negative turns people off.

Eloïse

And how about this? Is THIS Activism?

Robby

"It takes a long time to become young."

- - - Pablo Picasso

OH I love that answer..wish I had thought of it..because whenever I have to answer that question I am puzzled since none of the accepted responses seem right for me..I think I will use that next time and add alive and involved...if any one asks what I mean what a great time to tell them about senior net. I truly hate pre thought out responses..I am perfectly capable of deciding what I want to say about me..often I just leave it blank as I do other questions I feel is an infringement on my right to divulge private information. What difference does it mean to a podiatrist as whether I am retired etc ...That was on the form I had to fill out this week ..I think I said other...or I often put N/A for not applicable ..what I would like to say MYOB..remember that? how sassy I felt years ago when someone asked a personal question to reply thus....anna I think I just may use that the next time LOL

Please permit an occasional reader a comment or two :

There is already much too much known about any of us, I feel. Just consider for a moment the seemingly innocuous questionnaire in back of the warranty card for a new mixer, or toaster or food processor. They ask all sorts of personal questions about age and income bracket. Why is that, I wonder ? Is that a kind of profiling ?

Now the government is interested in what books and CDs we take out of the library (as has already been mentioned here).

________________

Activism and volunteerism are, I believe, directly proportional to need. Where there is a crying social need (one example : 40 million people without health insurance in this country!), there is activism, or there SHOULD BE. When the populace is systematically lied to, concerned citizens have a constitutional right to raise questions, which then of course become indeed political. Do these concerned citizens deserve to be labeled "unpatriotic" ? Is there a climate of fear ? Do people feel intimidated and/or discouraged from speaking out freely ? Forgive me, ROBBY, I hasten to add that these are my rhetorical questions only and not meant to be debated here .

Yes, I believe the issues are broader and deeper, they go beyond the political and extend into the personal realm. In this connection I'd like to mention a new book which was reviewed in The Boston Globe on February 15 by Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Life at Boston College.

The book is The Cheating Culture: Why More Americans Are Doing Wrong to Get Ahead by David Callahan. From the sidebar : "Take a capitalist economy, add a dose of social Darwinism, allow private companies unprecedented access to the public till, and all too many will cheat."

I am referring to this book ONLY to point out that there are ideas, indeedideals, which we convey (or ought to convey) to our children, about duties and responsibilities: theirs and ours. The stakes are becoming higher, it seems to me.

For more than a century university students in Europe have been the standard bearers in protesting against social ills for example and demanding change; literally green and idealistic, they spoke out for the common man who had no voice and/or no idea how to use it. They, the students, became agents of change, and on occasion they were even heeded without being labeled élitists (!) - in Europe, that is.

Bravo Traude! You have echoed my sentiments exactly - its not just in your country but ideology in our country too. We need to have more ethics and social responsibility in business as far as I am concerned.

Carolyn

An anti-choice and anti-privacy judicial activist, Bill Pryor, has been appointed to the Eleventh Circuit federal bench just a month after the surprise appointment of anti-choice Charles Pickering to the Fifth Circuit bench.

Mr. Pryor has called Roe v. Wade an "abominable decision." If you'd like to make your voice heard on this issue, please click the link below.

CLICK HERE

Elections with no meaning
How America Doesn't Vote

Judge Pryor is the second appointment Bush has made to the Federal bench during Congressional recess, bypassing approval by the Senate.

Read Pryor's record and you too should be boiling mad.

Like Judge Charles Pickering, who Bush recess appointed in January, Pryor has amassed a troubling civil rights record and has used the power of his office to advance his extreme right-wing views.

Pryor has called Roe v. Wade "the worst abomination of constitutional law in our history."

Pryor urged the Supreme Court to hold that, under the Americans with Disabilities Act, state employees cannot sue for damages to protect their rights against discrimination.

Pryor urged the Supreme Court to uphold laws that would imprison gay men and lesbians for having sex in the privacy of their own homes.

Pryor has defended a state judge who has officially sponsored sectarian prayers in the courtroom before juries and who has installed unconstitutional religious displays of the Ten Commandments in his courtroom and in the state judicial building.

Just one more homophobic, bigotted ideologue to add to miscarriage of justice, freedom and liberty for ALL.

This sounds like our breakfast table discussion this morning. You have said it all and better than I could.

NOW, the question remains WHAT can we do about this???

I have long maintained that the real danger of George W. Bush will be in his judicial appointments. These appointments are for a life time and will affect US jurisprudence for many years to come.

Ray and George, I wholeheartedly agree with you both.

What can we do? ALF asked; a perfectly reasonable question.

For one thing, I think we must keep vigilant and-- at the very first indication that some judge, who has a poor record on civil rights, women's rights, or anyone's rights for that matter, is going to be slid into a life-time position of great import for the next generations -- we need to contact the lawmakers, vigorously, repeatedly, articulately.

That's exactly what I did numerous times when Pickering was first proposed. Could it be that there were not enough people who tried to intervene?

Indeed, how many people ARE truly interested in those matters, or any political issues, as long as there is food on their table ? How CAN they be made to understand what is at stake for each and everyone of them, for all of us and indeed for future generations ?

Of course there is voter apathy.

But is that any wonder in the face of seemingly unending revelations of financial wrongdoing by well known corporations (and persons), ultimately at the expense of the "little man", the tax payer ? (The hotel owner who coined that term was Helmsley, I've since remembered, Lenora or something.)

Moreover, is it any wonder that voters are confused, dismayed, angry, turned off ? WHO, they ask, can be trusted any more ? Who deserves our trust and support ?

Meanwhile here we are, intent on implanting democracy in deeply suspicious nations some of which have lived under restrictive, feudal systems for ages, and THIS is the best example we can offer them of democracy in action ? This mud-slinging and maligning of well-meaning candidates, for which OBSCENE amounts of money are raised and spent while nothing is done to alleviate hunger in THIS country, or provide basic health insurance the 40 million without it ? Fossil fuel is running out and there is no effort being made to find sources of alternate energy. And there is more on the agenda. My heart aches for my grandchildren.

Yes to activism, to active participation and decision-making from the ground up.

What can we do? well you can protest by voting Bush out. You might not be able to change what he has already done but you can stop him from doing more harm to this country..

Ever wonder what would occur if we had a Democratic President and a Republican Vice President?

I see that you are discussing the court systems and since you understand Activism, I thought you really would like to hear about some posts today from the front you might say, we could use your own takes on what could be done. This post An inequity in the law is in the Prison Education Initiative by one of the persons closely involved. You may also see a post (#83) from the gentleman who runs the Tutor/Mentor Connection (T/MC) at the Mother Cabrini Projects?

We have people posting here on SeniorNet who are involved in activism, do come down and tell US what we can do, that's one way to be active!

Thanks,

ginny

Include me in on all your posts. I am BOILING MAD too!! But can we vote Bush out? The more I read on the subject of elections and election methods, the more I am coming to believe that the elections will be "fixed" in one form or another.
To begin with, the manufacturers of the machines themselves agree that they are not foolproof. Assuming that they are (and I don't think they are), then we have the shenagins that took place in Florida. I hate to use the word "conspiracy" but I'm willing to bet that this very minute the people in power are working up systems to defeat our vote.
There have always been methods. In the "old days" votes were bought or lists were compiled from names on tombstones. Now it is done electronically or by changing voting districts. What can we do? Read the LOCAL weekly or daily newspapers to keep up to date on how elections are being prepared in our own district. Write letters to the local newspapers warning the officials that you are watching them very carefully. Encourage those who are of the same philosophy as you to check to see if they are indeed registered. If possible, get a job working at the polls. When you cast your vote, read the fine print carefully to make sure you are truly voting for the person of your choice. Look around at the polling area to see who is doing what or talking to whom. Act as if someone is looking over your shoulder because -- guess what? -- they are.
As many of you know, I am the DL for both this forum and The Story of Civilization. The more I read what is going on here and what is going on in the Roman Empire and the activities of the Emperors, the less I see any difference. And I really mean what I just wrote!! I am running scared.
Fortunately fear is a great motivation and maybe it may cause me and my fearful friends to be ACTIVISTS.

Robby

Here is ANOTHER FACTOR that could take our votes away from us.
Ralph Nader will appear on NBC's Meet The Press tomorrow (Sunday) at 10:30 a.m.(ET).

Robby

Robby I have been scared since I read the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire early last year! We have a scary Neo Con who has just been appointed leader of our Opposition Party - it seems to be a world wide trend- the far right ideology is spreading.

CLICK HERE TO PROTEST THE PRYOR APPOINTMENT

TELL YOUR FRIENDS

Carolyn:-When you say the far right ideology is spreading, how do you define "far right"?

Robby

Some people want to blame the so-called stupid senior citizens in Florida because they couldn't read a ballot..What they really need to think about is the 96,000 votes that went to Nader there.

Ralph Nader has every right to run for president. So do you. If Nader really wants to keep Democracy in America green, he'll step aside this time. Send him an email! Let him know how you feel!

Mal

Here is the ELECTION PROBLEM that those in New York City will face March 2. You and I may face the same problem in November. Read it and see how confusing it is!!

Robby

I live in a voting district that was recently gerrymandered (by the Democrats this time) to get rid of a long-standing popular Representative. I wound up voting with people at the other end of the county for people I'd never heard of. Although I was not a supporter of hers, I was indignant, but had no idea how widespread this was. Does anyone know what conditions have to be met for this to be struck down by the courts?

My one experience working at the polls was interesting. It was the year George Wallace was running for president. (68?). I had just moved to this area which then was primarily rural, and was surprised when the local Democratic committe asked me to be a poll watcher. I sat with two locals who had done this for many years. All went well, untill the doors opened and a large froup of elderly Black men came in. One came to my table, and asked me in a worried voice if anyone could tell how he had voted. I started to assure him no, but the other women at my table interrupted and said yes, that everyone would know how he voted. I shut up thinking maybe it was true.

Later I found out what was happening. A local bigwig, who hired many Black workers, would truck them all to the polls telling them that if they didn't vote for Wallace, he would fire them, and that he would KNOW. Sure enough, Wallace won in my precinct.

The Black vote will be extremely important in the coming election.

Robby

Black people I know in this part of North Carolina do not intend to re-elect the President. Reason? Too many of their relatives and friends are out of work.

Mal

Far right is a movement which is an ideology which seems to favor big business to a very great extent. Its Capitalism without a heart. It seems to involve some sort of Christian philosophy ( very fundamental) Its philosophy embraces "laissez faire" which has never worked except of course for the rich. It is a backward step and is a modernisation of Imperialism except the Kings are now Kings of Industry. That is the way I see it. It also embraces the idea of conversion by force of all those nations who do not embrace this form of Capitalism.

All of you are so much more articulate than I and I cannot help but cry Bingo! when I read some of my opinions being agreed upon and expressed in this forum. The influence and power of corporations in today's world makes me tremble! The almighty dollar has never spoken louder! Thanks for telling like I see it for the most part.

So let's all go in the corner, tremble, and watch the current "emperor" and his royal court aides re-establish his throne for another four years.

Robby

In the book Tom Hayden says:-"Hope has always been a conflicting term for me. The people that impressed me the most in this world are people who stood up when their situation looked completely hopeless. I was very impressed by Albert Camus. You rebel because you're human -- to prove that you exist."

Robby

Some of this far right-ism is also that surety that God is on their side. They are led by God. Oh, really? How about the other side being the leader?

Some countries have been manipulated terribly over the years by the Right in our country resulting in putting in leaders they want - not so much what the country wants. They must have lots of practice rigging elections. I've especially read here and there about south America.

So nice to see everyone unhappy about the new Bush appointee to the Circuit Court. Election Day is coming. Stay mad and tell your friends who may think it is chic to vote republican.

Watch the states also. SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION 04-017 101 CONCERNING THE RECOGNITION OF THE IMPORTANCE OF WESTERN 102 CIVILIZATION.

1 WHEREAS, The mission of American public schools includes the 2 preparation of students for citizenship through the teaching of the history 3 and civil government of the United States, including the U.S. Constitution; 4 and

5 WHEREAS, Our country's history, form of government, and 6 constitution can be fully understood only in light of their roots in the 7 heritage of Western civilization, deriving anciently from Israel, Greece, 8 and Rome, and, since at least 1215, C.E., from Great Britain; and

9 WHEREAS, The contributions of Western civilization to our 10 country and the world include the concept of individual liberty, the rule of 11 law, and democratic institutions; the concept of universal human rights; the 12 development of science and technology; and religious tolerance; and

13 WHEREAS, Contemporary educational trends often downgrade the ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page 2 1 teaching of Western civilization and its contributions in favor of a 2 multicultural approach that emphasizes the differences among Americans, 3 rather than their common heritage; and

4 WHEREAS, If young people are not taught to appreciate the 5 civilizational heritage that all Americans share, the United States will 6 become increasingly vulnerable to social division, mutual distrust, and 7 animosity; and

8 WHEREAS, If immigrants to the United States do not gain an 9 understanding of our country's political and civic institutions as derived 10 from Western civilization, they will be unable to participate fully and 11 equally in the process of self-government; and

12 WHEREAS, The spread of instant communication, swifter 13 transportation, and mass migration of people across international borders 14 could balkanize our country unless all citizens recognize a common set of 15 values and a common purpose binding them together; and

16 WHEREAS, This American commonality of values and purpose can 17 be strengthened by widespread appreciation for Western civilization and its 18 accomplishments, namely individual liberty, the rule of law, and 19 democratic institutions; the concept of universal human rights; the 20 development of science and technology; and religious tolerance; now, 21 therefore,

22 Be It Resolved by the Senate of the Sixty-fourth General Assembly 23 of the State of Colorado, the House of Representatives concurring 24 herein:

25 (1) That we, the members of the Sixty-fourth General Assembly of 26 the state of Colorado, find and declare that teaching young people to have 27 an appreciation of Western civilization is central to the development and 28 maintenance of a vibrant, united, and enduring United States polity, culture, 29 and society; and

30 (2) That we urge the state board of education and local boards of 31 education throughout Colorado to ensure that these concepts and ideals are 32 effectively taught, and that all young people who graduate from high 33 schools do so with an understanding of and appreciation for the values and 34 accomplishments of Western civilization.

35 Be It Further Resolved, That a copy of this Joint Resolution be sent 36 to the state board of education and to each local board of education in the 37 state.

"The deterioration of every government begins with the decay of the principles on which it was founded." -- C. L. De Montesquieu

Linda:-That is a great deal to read but I worked my way through it and it is powerful stuff. I especially like the latter few paragraphs beginning with "Be It Resolved."

Robby

Here is another approach to the concept of HOPE.

Robby

Robby:

In 1961 William J Lederee wrote "A nation operates honestly and well as long as citizens show interest. But when citizens become apathetic, then dictatorship, ignorance and national decline take over." this is on page 183 of his book "A Nation of Sheep".

Also on page 186 is "If the President himself makes an effort to be intimate with national and world evens--and exhibits this tendency in his publice statements and press conferences it will become contagious. It will become just as fashionable to know what is happening in Ghana or Poland or Laos as it is to be able to quote a batting average or repeat the latest gossip on a movie.

He posed this Question: Then you mean for your book to be a guide and blueprint for the futre..and use the past only as a teacher? Answer. That is correct.

What does this all have to do with "Hope Dies Last" - both recommend that one stands up and be counted for what they believe in.

"Is there a systematic vision of hope -- an ''anatomy'' -- that coalesces out of these disparate stories? Groopman contends that hope itself is in effect a vital organ, an entity that desperately needs sustenance, and that this sustenance is as essential to living ''as the very oxygen we breathe.'' The absence or malfunction of this organ -- as with Dan or Esther -- becomes a pathological malfunction of the psyche. Without its proper nourishment, Groopman suggests, all his patients would perish.

Robby this article on the Anatomy of Hope is interesting because Hope for health is not the only hope humans live on. Is it not Hope that feeds spirituality? What about hope for profit, hope for conquest, hope for peace. some people live only on hope, others cannot bear to stay in the sideline and watch the show, they rely on action. They are the activists.

I think that you are all overreacting to the threat of America sliding into a Dictatorship. America has a natural penchant for Democracy. You can vote every four years. When the stakes are high, people vote. In Canada when there was a threat of separation, 98% of the people voted. When people are happy there is voter's apathy. I know that not everybody will agree with me but America cannot be compared with any other country.

A friend of ours went to India and when she saw the crowds of people in movie theaters in the middle of the day, she asked an Indian, "Don't these people work?" He replied: In America 7% of the people are unemployed, here only 7% of the people have a job. I know that is not an official percentage, it is just for comparison purposes.

We can rave and rant, but I bet not one of us here would like to move to another country. I would love to move to the US but only to get shorter winters.

Eloïse

Citizens for Legitimate Government, Protests and Action

Planned Parenthood denounces Pryor appointment

Google slants its material to corporate interests?

" 'Google's policy prohibits ads criticizing other groups or companies, said spokeswoman Cindy McCaffrey. "We do reserve the right to exercise editorial discretion when it comes to the advertising we accept on our site,' she said."

It can't happen here, ELOISE? Oh, yes, it can!

Mal

I agree with Mal. Remember, Eloise, Rome used to be a Republic.

Robby

I agree with Mal and Robby, too. We HAD an election but the votes were stolen, people were held away from the polls, and the Supreme Court (puppets) went in favor of Bush.

I just finished the book this morning, but I'll go back and review as we touch on each story. Which one are we on now? Hayden was a good one, I thought. I remember those times and wanted to be a part of it, but my parents would have had a fit. Shoulda done it.

We are still in the Tom Hayden chapter, Linda, and will move on when we end our current sub-topics.
Some of what Hayden is saying is most relevant to what we are discussing now. For example, Hayden says:-Somehow, the energy shifted. In the sixties, the energy was on the left; in the eighties, the energy was on the right. What was it about? Was it about hope? No. It was about Republicans and the business community fearing the loss of their privileges more than the Democrats cared to overthrow those privileges. So you started to get Democrats who were comfortable with business contributors. You started to get Democrats who were giving tax breaks to business -- Democrats who were courting business. And down it went."

Robby

Two items. 1. If Ralph Nader enters the race today as I suspect he will, I believe that Kerry could use this to his advantage by pointing out that it was the Nader votes that elected Bush. IF Nader does run, he is bound to speak about issues that will be damaging to the President.

2. We all seem to be worried, angry and upset now. What worries me just as much is will the opposition to Bush last until the election? Bush can do a lot of things that will artificially improve his ratings in the fall just prior to election day. I firmly believe that Bush will use extreme measures in the fall to insure his electability. The conservatives in the US are on a roll and they will not relinquish power gracefully. The members of this group are probably pretty much decided as to whom they will vote for in November and it is unlikely that we will change. It is the huge number of undecided voters that need the attention of the Democratic party.

Ran across an older article from New Zealand. It's long, but well worth reading. Sometimes we have to get political. Tom Hayden sure did and most of the others in this book.

http://scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0206/S00071.htm

I have just finished listening to Ralph Nader on Meet The Press. And here is the NY TIMES ARTICLE with the detail.
I was most impressed! And I have to say I am leaning toward voting for him rather than Democrat. Why? Because he said primarily the same thing that Tom Hayden said in our current chapter -- that there is practically no difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. As he put it -- Washington is a corporate owned community and it makes no difference which party is in power -- the corporations are in power!

Robby

Robbie, a vote for Ralph Nader is the same as a vote for George Bush. Is that what you want? Nader gave the last election to Bush. I believe that if Nader had not run, the issue would never have been decided by the Supreme Court.

Of course there is a tremendous difference between the Democrats and Republicans. Look at the legislation proposed by Clinton and defeated by a Republican Congress versus the legislation and judges proposed by Bush. Look at the war chest of money already accumulated by Bush. Where is that money coming from? The wealthy and the corporations.

There is no question that corporations have tremendous power in the US political system. Which party will try to curb that power the most?

While I am not in principal opposed to third parties, I do question their value when looking at elections in other countries. The vote is often so splintered that it causes disruption in the political process.

Further more, I think that it is money (BIG money) that is the cause of corruption and misuse of power in the US. The money can come from any source - business, labor, individuals, lawyers, doctors. Reforming the electoral system should be a top priority and it is more likely that Democrats would back such reform.

Oh, boy. You don't think that Ralph Nader, if he possibly could be elected, would get rid of corporations, do you? If you do, please tell me how?

Would somebody please tell me what is wrong with corporations? They employ and shelter millions of people, don't they? Where else can these people get as good a paycheck, health insurance policy and savings plan, plus day nursery care for their children?

This is a capitalistic country, and corporations are capitalistic. Democrat presidents have managed to work with corporations, haven't they, without letting them run the country? If you want Socialism, you have to tear down the entire system and start from scratch -- Or move to another country. There would have to be a revolution, since the American people think Socialism is a dirty word.

We can't go back to the 19th century, for Pete's sake! (Though it seems sometimes as if the current administration is trying hard to get us there.)

I want the present administration out of there, and voting for Nader is not going to do it.

Mal

"Washington is a corporate owned community and it makes no difference which party is in power -- the corporations are in power!"

That is exactly what I mean, It doesn't matter which one is in power, they are both the same. It is not a matter of government, it is a matter of "time", we have reached the time in our history when corruption is at the helm. We know what comes after that because Durant has told us.

Eloïse

Just out of curiosity, do corporations own Canada, ELOISE?

Mal

Here is an EASLY READ ARTICLE about jobs. Do you prefer a Republican-run economy or a Democrat-run economy?

Robby

I can say that Corporations generally do not own our country. However they have more influence when the administration is right wing. I do believe the big Corporations do have huge influence on Global politics. As shareholders expectations rise the Corporations get greedier. A fair profit has been replaced by sheer greed. Look at the share index and see the Drug Company share prices. There is absolutely no need for drug prices to be as high as they are even allowing for the fact of research costs. Where is the social responsiblity of these drug companies. Think about the fight to get affordable aids drugs for the third world.

Carolyn

Mal, Corporations own Canada and the rest of the world. I listen to news from Europe every day. Their news has much less commercials and a lot more international coverage than news here.

Corporations own the wealth of the world and if they have that, they can/will/do rule the world .

But watch out for China, China, if they ever get to achieve unity with one official language as in America, they will be the next Super Power. They have the land, a mega unspoilt population and a strong central government, albeit somewhat leftist. But their taking over the Super Powership of the world is not for tomorrow. They have to catch up with the US in Space exploration and technology and discovery from where every movement on earth is spied upon. Until America is afraid of an enemy, it will be apathetic.

That is why I am not afraid that a Dictator will move in the White House soon.

Eloïse

Eloise, you say:'"Until America is afraid of an enemy, it will be apathetic."
Do you believe that the majority of Americans are afraid of terrorists or do they take this scare with a grain of salt? Is the Administration afraid of any enemy?

Robby

Nader sounds good and I can agree with him on some issues BUT there is no way he can win. So why would he want to take votes away from a Democrat and get Bush back in the White House. I think this is all an ego trip for him. He's getting old and is not being paid that much attenion any more. Actually he hasn't done any thing for a long time except talk about Corporate greed which the average American doesn't pay any attention to. Where has be been for the last three years? This will make people pay attention to him again for awhile. I honestly don't believe he gives a hoot about what is going on in this country since Bush has taken over. If he did he would be helping the Democrats win. He keeps saying he didn't want to run as a Green but in actuality the Greens didn't want him to run at all.

We need to keep our eye on the ball here. No matter how much you like a candidate who cannot win the election, a vote for him is a vote to keep Bush in office.

Robby, yes of course we are afraid of terrorists, who wouldn't be. And if 'you know who' is taking the bull by the horns and tries to get at the root of terrorism, he suddenly becomes the villain? To me he is just doing his job of staying on top of the situation. His methods might not be something that the majority of Americans want on the war on terrorism, but it worked up to a certain point.

What if another party ran the country, how is it going to deal with terrorism? How is it going to deal with Corporations? with Space programs, with Health issue, with International affairs? They will do their best just like this administration does, but I bet they won't be loved for very long.

What Americans (us too) want is a nice little war on terrorism where nobody gets hurt, especially not one of our countrymen. The Administration is very much afraid of the enemy, but it doesn't know who the enemy is and it thinks that the enemy is a couple of Dictators somewhere in the East. With those out of the way, they think that the problems will go away.

Eloïse

So that we don't get caught up in third-hand remarks about what Ralph Nader said, here is the TRANSCRIPT of his interview by Tim Russert on Meet the Press. Schwarzenegger was also interviewed on this program.

Robby

Again quoting Tom Hayden:-
"The conservatives are calling for the creation of an American empire. They're citing Tiberius as a role model. The curtain is coming down on parliamentary democracy. Congress has less and less power. Trade agreements are being realized without protections for labor, environment, human rights.
"Every day I tell myself it couldn't be worse, and then I wake up and I read the paper, and I hear the conservatives still aren't done. They think Bush isn't going far enough. Remember the statement by John Mitchell, the discredited attorney general, during the Nixon years? 'We're going to push this country so far to the right that you won't even recognize it.'"
Will the Democrats, most of whom are also in the pockets of the corporations, rectify this situation?

Robby

"What if another party ran the country, how is it going to deal with terrorism? How is it going to deal with Corporations? with Space programs, with Health issue, with International affairs? They will do their best just like this administration does, but I bet they won't be loved for very long."

Is there a difference between the two parties? Yes and no.We've been around long enough to know the answer, especially those of us like me who have worked for the government. On the big things, no. US will be run in corporations interest, social programs will be neglected while the military gets fat, the environment will go to pot. BUT the Democrats will make little steps in what I think is forward, the Republicans will make big steps backward. (it's easier to go with these trends than against them). And these steps will make all the difference in the world to many, many of us. I worked in an agency that administered social programs under both Democrats and Republicans. It was NOT true that all the Dems did good and the Reps did bad. Individual differences and the sheer inertia that makes it difficult to change anything were often more important than the official "party line". But it is true that there was more hope of progress under the Dems.

This sounds wishy -washy, but I'm not wishy-washy at all. Just because we can't do everything doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything. To say "there is no difference" is pure cop-out.

NADAR: Robby, you really shouldn't vote for Nadar. After what happened in the last election, I can't believe he is running again. It is definately a vote for Bush. Futher, I don't believe he would make a good president. People are good at what they are good at. He was perfect in his role of consumer gadfly and reformer. I have tremendous admiration for him in that role. But there is nothing about it that tells me he would be a good president. He belongs on the outside, fighting.

Just a little insight to corporate greed! United Technologies bought out Otis Elevator - in an attempt to thwart closure of the Tarrytown Operation of Otis Elevator the employees came by bus and picketed outside the Corporate Headquaters on the 24th of what we call the "Gold Building". It didn't work! That operation still got closed.

Yes, corporation do a lot more for their employees now, they have to. They have downsized to almost skeleton crews which means double work for those left in the office.

What happened to the others? Unemployment, Overqualification for jobs that are available, etc.

ROI - is what shareholders want - but do shareholders really gain anything.

As I mentioned before William J Lederer in 1961 said the same thing that Studs is saying now.

Moxie - good post. It is true that Corporations want their large profits no matter what the economic climate. They do not care that workers are doing more than one job after they pare staff to a bare minimum. As I look at todays Corporations they are acting no differently than the Steelmasters, Coalmasters etc who operated during the Industrial Revolution in England. There was great social cost then as there is now. Now we have the Information Technology Revolution.

Corporations seem to be behind a lot of the globalization movements which seems to hurt people rather than let them grow. They end up owing us money.

I seems corporate greed is out of control and while Bush mourns the loss of his dog, who is mourning the loss of children, moms, dads in Iraq. Who is looking at the homeless here and the newly homeless and those who have died here this winter?

Hairy, remember Mitch Snyder?? I remember that he was an advocate for the homeless. For a period, during the seventies and eighties, I heard so much about the people who were cold and hungry because they did not have a home. My husband read a book during that time called RACHEL'S CHILDREN. It was about the homeless.

Now, I rarely hear about the homeless. It's like the problem has been solved. Nothing is in the newpaper or on the news. I think the problem of the homeless might have grown bigger in the past few years and is just being swept under the rug.

The death of democracy in the U.S. has been predicted many times, but it is still healthier here than anywhere else in the world today. In fact, we have more democracy now than we had when the country was founded and for many years after that. Remember that there was a time when only property owners could vote, and when only white men could vote. We've come a long way, Baby, and I'm looking forward to more women in Congress and a woman President someday very soon. The glass is more than half full.

There is nothing wrong with having third party candidates. It makes us think about issues the major parties are afraid to raise for fear of offending their campaign contributors. Corporate crime, fraud and abuse have become like the weather; everyone is talking about it, but no one seems able to do anything about it. Remember what happened when we were so determined to get rid of Lyndon Johnson, we elected Nixon. Let the Democratic nominee show us how he is really different from Bush, and why we won't be sorry if we elect him.

Most of Nader's positions are acceptable to me. Does that mean I think he should run or that I should vote for him?

Nader says there is little difference between Republicans and Democrats on the important issues. He implies that his positions on issues are different from both parties. He is wrong. His position on most issues are those of the Democratic party. The platform will show that. He knows that. Then why is he running?

It's not because he supports impeachment. If the Democrats had control of the House, Bush would be impeached for high crimes and misdemeaners. His lies have cost American lives.

It's not because he fights against child porno. Who doesn't?

It's because he has been fighting corporate power in Washington all his life and he does not see Democrats any less prone to corporate lobbyists than Republicans. That's a legitimate complaint. Lets examine it.

Democrats support environmental protection. Republicans support environmental exploitation; for the good of business, you know.

Democrats take money from business Pac's at election time. Their primary supporters are unions and now small donors. They get some money from corporations but far less than Republicans.

Nader blames corporate entities for the build up in consumer debt. He thinks by attacking business enterprise he can lower or remove consumer debt. The truth is consumer debt is the result of the great prosperity we enjoyed during Clinton years and it is the one thing that enables the middle class to buy and enjoy all the wonderful products we used to manufacture in this country.

I conclude that Nader has no reason to run other than his own aggrandizement. That's spelled EGO. He is not stupid but he is a foolish man, in my judgement.

I thought I had seen an article that homelessness is up. People are dying in the cold. After Vietnam, homelessness was up, I suppose. I don't know how many people are homeless today but I would guess about 4 million. But I don't have any factual backing.

Our school children brought in blankets a couple of weeks ago to give to the homeless in our city.

who ever it was who posted that corporations took care of folks with work that provided for children and the old as if corporations are what makes the world go around -

Well I see corporations as not the liberal helping hand to the average family - except to use the labor of folks and pay for it by determining a pay scale that is no different then the concept of the company store - the pay is just enough to make it and other corporations like insurance companies are needed to protect the worker since the first corporation does not pay sufficiently to allow each family to save within a reasonable time the cushion that allows them to take care of emergencies -

Since corporations have figured out how to avoid taxes by moving, in name only, off-shore we are picking up the tab that lets corporations flurish - oh and that can be also called ok since it keeps their stock up and the dividends are what some use to augment their annual income - but what it does is keep loyalty away from any one particular nation which that lack of loyalty is helping to open the floodgates of jobs where ever the labor is the cheapest - it pays exorbitant salaries to a few and all the corporation does is syphon off power -

Power is in either money or numbers of people - well the money is being syphoned off and invested out of this country - it is also syphoned off when a corporation avoids paying taxes and when the corporation hires less keeping a higher percentage of workers without jobs -

A corporation syphons off power by controlling the people by both controlling the news we hear and by the enlargement of the base of people it takes to have a sufficient number to create power - since workers are now spread all over the world rather than in a small geographic area it is harder to focus people into a single voice.

No I do not see corporations as purveyors of good will but as no different than a group of fascist governments.

There is nothing innately wrong with a corporation as long as its power is controlled - remember the Taft Hartly and other legislature that kept them in control - well a new set of laws needs to be be inacted so that fair labor practices and the financial support of nation states are secured - now that corporations have created a world economy we may need a world system of legislation to control the beast.

I mentioned corporations, but not in the way BARBARA has stated. Back in the 50's when my former husband began working for a large chemical corporation, it had holdings all over the world. European and Japanese corporations had holdings here. It's nothing new. The corporation for which my former husband worked sent workers for a tour of duty abroad. Foreign workers were brought here. They still are. The change lies in the types of jobs which are delegated for overseas plants and laboratories.

Hasn't anyone here except JUSTIN, who doesn't post often, ever worked for a large corporation? The pay described in Post #734 is not a true picture of what corporate workers received and receive as pay. Employees are paid better than they are working at other jobs, and the benefits are very, very good. What I say is based on my former husband's experience and what I know about people who work for such corporations as IBM, Monsanto, Union Carbide, Hoffman-LaRoche to name a few.

Wealth in the United States has always been in the hands of a few, so this is nothing new, either. I think the way political candidates raise funds should be the concern here. If they're raised by making deals with corporations or any other source, then something must be done.

I notice that no one is mentioning small corporations. Not all corporations are gigantic in size. I could name you several small businesses where I live which are incorporated for tax and other reasons. Shall we jump on them, too?

Mal

Here is today's NY TIMES EDITORIAL about Nader.

Robby

Robby: Notice that the article is saying that people won't be fooled into making that same mistake by voting for him this time.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/155107_firstperson05.html

"THE S FACTOR"

A link to an excellent article, Jeriron. And it calls to mind Studs' introduction in his book asking that we be thinking citizens.

Robby

Robby: The thing is that so many of us have gotten so lazy just listening to sound bites on TV and not going going any further into the issue. So many people don't even read newspapers anymore. ( I am not in that group)

The right-wing talk shows that are on radio that people listen to and shake their heads up and down remind me of the dog that people put on the back of their car by the window that keeps nodding it's head. I'm sure we have all come across people that vote (if they do at all) just by what some of their friends are saying. It's sad when we live in a country that we have choices and are able to make them and then so many sit back and do nothing.

http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/books/0204/22tubman.html

A small woman's towering legacy of activism

A friend described her as "one of the most ordinary looking of her race, unlettered, no idea of geography, asleep half of the time." Harriet Tubman must have been busy during her waking hours, for in an era when just about every notorious Underground Railroad conductor was a man — not to mention white — Tubman became one of its most fierce and effective activists. Even a bounty placed on her head could not stop her from raiding Southern states to lead fugitive slaves to freedom.

Finally an explanation - the S factor. I wish it made me feel better.

I have often thought about that -- that there should be some sort of intelligence/education test to vote -- but then that wouldn't be democracy, would it? That's what kept the Blacks away from voting for centuries.

Robby

Intelligence/Education Test to vote?

I would also suggest that for a President/Prime Minister candidate to run for office should be well acquainted with foreign affairs, social, health and judicial systems, have a degree in macro economics and be able to speak at least two languages before he should be allowed to enter his candidacy.

Eloïse

Eloise - That is the best suggestion I have ever heard for a leader to have to go through! But then He could possibly fudge it!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/23/nyregion/23protest.html?pagewanted=print&position=

To Greet G.O.P., Protests of Varying Volume

I disagree Moxie because she/he would have to prove everything and today our life is an open book for anyone to verify, especially people in high places where the media is so quick at spreading every little mistake from the past. Jokingly, how could you pretend to know another language on television?

Eloïse

C'est possible! Eloise - Closed Captioned

Jeriron - Sounds like there is thoughtful and serious planning for the demonstrations. Its heartening to see Americans standing up for what they believe in. Up the stirrers!

Bush speaks two languages.

Robby

Yes he does and it is called "Double Speak".

And neither one very well!

Robby:

Another classmate of mine sent me this:

2004 Election Issue!!

This must be an issue in "2004". Please! Keep it going.

----------------------------------

SOCIAL SECURITY:

(This is worth reading. It is short and to the point.)

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years.

Our Senators and Congresswomen do not pay into Social Security and, of course, they do not collect from it.

You see, Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of their rare elevation in society. They felt they should have a special plan for themselves. So, many years ago they voted in their own

benefit plan.

In more recent years, no congress person has felt the need to change it. After all, it is a great plan.

For all practical purposes their plan works like this:

When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die.

Except it may increase from time to time for cost of living adjustments.

For example, former Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight-Hundred Thousand Dollars), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last years of their lives.

This is calculated on an average life span for each of those two Dignitaries.

Younger Dignitaries who retire at an early age, will receive much more during the rest of their lives.

Their cost for this excellent plan is $0.00. NADA....ZILCH....

This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. The funds for this fine retirement plan come directly from the General Funds;

"OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK"!

From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid) into, -every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our employer)- we can expect to get an average of $1,000 per month after retirement.

Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1,000 monthly benefits for 68 years and one (1) month to equal Senator Bill Bradley's benefits!

Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made.

That change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us ... then sit back and watch how fast they would fix it.

The corporate form of business organization is just fine for managing a business. Inequities arise when politicians offer and corporate officers expect quid pro quo for financial support.

Corporations are an excellent source for talented people and the government does well to recruit them. However, talented people lent by corporations to government often continue their loyalty to the corporation. That's why one's financial interests must be disclosed and severed before serving government. It takes a watchful press and an informed electorate to make that work. The S factor does not help.

Protests at Halliburton and Bechtel offices

Poor People's Rights Organization plans protest march

Violation of Patient Confidentiality

We have been following the discussions: do NOT have the book yet, but already am stirred and delighted to read all of the lively interest and ideas expressed. Have lived in this country for fifty-seven years and been involved all along in helping ease various community needs and bringing services as much as we could..but new younger volunteers are fewer and fewer and the older ranks thinning out..and then we read such inspiring comments as printed and know that the ranks may be thinning out but the spirit is ever vigourous. Keep on! Jean

I've just jumped over 120 posts to put my two cents in regarding George Bush's speech this morning. He wants an amendment passed against gay marriages.

In his short statement he uses the phrase "activist judges" in the most negative way. Activist has become a dirty word. I don't mean to get into the pros and cons of the proposed amendment, only to ask...what are "activist" judges? Are they all bad in W's opinion? Don't "activists" come in every subject, every party? Isn't W an "activist" also?

Nanaleni - The right have a philosophy and its not confined to your country that anyone who does not share their opinions on any subject and protests or does something which is against their ideology is an activist. They try to make it sound like something dirty.

Carolyn

Greetings, Brit! Share with us some of your thoughts about Activism and perhaps some Activist behavior of your own.

Robby

The Patriot Act is your friend: an interview with Viet Dinh, the co-author

Internet dissidents jailed in China

"As part of an ongoing attempt to clamp down on Internet speech, the Chinese government sentences five members of the Falun Gong religious group to prison for posting an article critical of authorities".

Shrub senior also gave a negative to twist to members of the ACLU. He called them card carrying members of the ACLU. Those of you who recall Senator McCarthy will remember he frequently referred to card carrying members of various left wing organizations as though they were enemies of the State. The Bush dynasty has many of the earmarks of an aristocracy that does not understand what the constitution is all about. Jefferson warned us. The S factor in society will undermine the best intentions of thinking Americans.

Now he wants to ban same-sex marriage with a constitutional ammendment. It seems to me the Supreme Court should strike it down as a breach of the Bill of Rights. But since several members of the Court see themselves as beholden to a higher power first, it is not certain they will protect the rights of a minority. Sometimes I think Bush, in his ignorance, is trying to promote a religious war.

In the next chapter, Staughton Lynd, a peacemaker says:-"I still believe in finding common cause with all kinds of people and creating what in spirit is the same kind of community that we were privileged to live in the Georgia mountains."
His demeanor is gentle. He is a Quaker. Maybe pounding on the table is not the answer and "right" ends up being "might."

Robby

One thing is for certain, this will not include the mineral rights.

Might, power and bigotry will strip that inheritance to the bone.

I still say, rare up, growl, bark and put up "Beware Of The Dog" signs.

The old Quakers were pro- active they provided the safe houses used by the slaves who had escaped and were on the freedom trail. My great granny was a Quaker and was very interested in human rights. I espouse her philosophy of non violence. Great Granny was the gentlest of human beings but she did speak out against injustice.

Greenspan: "Cut Social Security"

Yes Mal! Roar very loudly! The opposition we have here intends to do the same thing if they get into power. Old people vote so heaven help them! Its a right wing agenda to cut taxes for the rich so that the elderly and the disadvantaged pay for the cuts. YOU will be paying for the tax cuts for the rich! Is that fair! Is that just! NO! NO! NO!

How do you feel about the movie coming out today -- PASSION OF THE CHRIST? Would you march against it? For it?

Robby

I was going to go see Passion, but today I heard something that made me change my mind. Never mind about marching, I am not interested in marching for or against a Hollywood film. This one is just like any other Hollywood film. Me no see it, me no march it either. My time is too precious for that.

Go to the end of the class you unactivist Eloïse

For those who want a blood-drenched spirituality, this movie is just the thing.

Be sure and take the kids for horrible, blood-red nightmares!

Mel Gibson certainly has an odd, hyper-religious viewpoint, which according to religious scholars is riddled with inaccuracies.

I have read that the movie, "Passion", is terribly violent, as well as not being true to history as recorded in the Bible and by historians of the time. I have no interest in seeing it. Years ago there was a movie of the Passion Play at Oberammergau in Germany, which I have seen. I'd much rather see that again, since the Oberammergau Passion Play is beautifully done. Has anyone here seen that play in Germany?

I am much more concerned about Alan Greenspan's statement about cutting Social Security than I am about any old movie, frankly.

Mal

MAL, Greenspan qualified his statement by saying he was not advocating cutting benefits for those currently collecting them, or on the verge of collecting them. I know that most of us resent the fact that our children and grandchildren will be deprived of the same benefits that exist today, but something will have to be done. We should protest about some of the specific wasteful spending, like the Iraq War. Money spent on this misguided adventure, and subsequently on having to rebuild that country instead of our own, could have lessened the need to cut benefits at home.

Re: Passion - I have already seen enough of the previews, discussions, etc. - I think I get the picture (no pun here) and absolutely have no desire to see it. I am opposed to the churches who buy blocks of seats and encourage families to attend - I just hope that no youngsters are being allowed to see it.

One of the reviews I read this morning said that the emphasis on the torture and suffering was almost pornographic - what a description!

But anyone who wants to see it, and has a pretty good idea of what they're getting into, should be allowed. Just wish people didn't feel such a need to create things like this - I think it desensitizes people and where does that lead us?

For those who do not want to talk about religion, how about SEX IN THE MILITARY?

Robby

Re your link Robby - The whole report disgusts me. Where were the officers in charge or were they involved too? I am against women being on active duty in the front lines for several reasons - one of these relates to the report, also the chance they could be captured and raped by the enemy. I also think women with children should not be in the front lines. Mothers are so important to little ones. They are the nurturers in the family unit and losing a mother is even more devestating to a small child than losing a father. I watch all my grands and Mummy is the centre of their Universe. I am not happy about my DIL going back to front line policing either and I have voiced my concerns. It was Ok before she had Nik and Taine but I feel differently now she is a Mum and I see how they adore her and relate to her.

Carolyn

Carolyn, your words reflect my views succinctly.

Re women fighting in the front lines : my sentiments exactly.

Re the movie Passion : Was this necessary ? Now ? At all ? Why ? I for my part will ignore it.

Aren't we already saturated with violence morning, noon and night ? Ironically, isn't the presentation of Gibson's movie an appalling reminder of the gladiator games held in the Forum Romanum 2000 years ago for the entertainment of the masses, when Christians were thrown to the lions ? Haven't we had enough religious wars through the centuries, not to mention the victims of the Holy Inquisition (Holy!).

Re social security : Mr. Greenspan's stern warning is only the latest attempt to instill fear in the hearts of people, but there is no question that the existing fund and the entire "social" program is "endangered", for anything 'social' is (ultimately) a dirty concept. This is an election year; nothing will be proposed or considered in the immediate future, but the clock is ticking... you may be sure.

As for using the deficit as the reason, I ask how did we manage to get from a surplus to such a colossal deficit in only four years ?

A classic Republican Question:

Are you better off now than you were four years ago?

I'd like to see the trial scenes to critique them but I do not wish to watch some poor bloke getting whipped half to death and then nailed up for the birds to eat. The Christian interest in torture and crucifixions seems a little excessive to me.

I suppose there are sado-masochistic aspects of the film that might border on pornograhy. A naked or almost naked, blood soaked, male body is depicted.

The Spanish have emphasized the bloody side of the passion and their paintings reflect that characteristic. The Northern Europeans have also depicted the realism of pain in their paintings. The Isenheim Altarpiece by Grunewald is a good example of this tendency.

The Passion movie is the kind of propaganda that led to the Holocaust. Oberramagau has produced their passion play every ten years for several centuries. The German people and tourists have watched the distorted trial scenes and concluded that Jews were at fault. No one bothered to challenge the role of the Pharisees who are now a synonyn for hypocracy. Only a few recognize the obvious political aspects of the event.

Justin- our Hebrew communities stated that they saw nothing they felt was anti semetic in the movie. Several rabbis went to see it. We have a very lively interfaith movement here and its made a huge difference to how our Hebrew communities feel about their place in the wider community. There has not been anti Jewish feeling here since probably the sixties and even then it was mutterings never very vocal. I think there was one Rabbi who felt it was over the top and think he may have been one of those fundamentalist Rabbis with the long beard and funny hat etc. Certainly there was no anti Semitic rhetoric from those who were interviewed coming out from the movies. Many felt it was quite graphic but felt it made them think more about their faith. Kiwis are pretty tolerant about other faiths in the main.

Carolyn-

I suggest that everyone forget "Passion" and watch a very good movie that's violent in its fantastical way and a whole lot of fun. It's "Pirates of the Caribbean". I had a great time watching my daughter's DVD of this movie right on this computer the other night. Johnny Depp playing pirate Captain Jack Sparrow has Errol Flynn beat a mile.

Mal

I have no intention of seeing the Passion. I find the church service on the Palm Sunday before Easter (in which the congregation is supposed to cry "Crucify him! Crucify him! as the crowd at the trial) more than enough. The message is supposed to be that Jesus went through all this suffering to atone for our sins. The message I receive is that it is a very savage god that would require this of any human being, let alone his son. Jesus's message was one of love, and this is supposed to show how great his love for us was. Um.

AS to women in the military, I believe women should be able to do anything they are physically equipped to do, but I think women who choose to go into the military are making a bad mistake. There is a reason that throughout history, with a few minor exceptions, men were the warriors and women the people who took up the burdens of making life go on without them. There was a saying regarding queens regnant that while a king might be captured and raped, only a queen could be captured and made pregnant with her enemy's child.

"How can it be good for America to have all these Indians doing our white-collar jobs?" I asked 24/7's founder, S. Nagarajan.

"Well, he answered patiently, 'look around this office.' All the computers are from Compaq. The basic software is from Microsoft. The phones are from Lucent. The air-conditioning is by Carrier, and even the bottled water is by Coke, because when it comes to drinking water in India, people want a trusted brand. On top of all this, says Mr. Nagarajan, 90 percent of the shares in 24/7 are owned by U.S. investors. This explains why, although the U.S. has lost some service jobs to India, total exports from U.S. companies to India have grown from $2.5 billion in 1990 to $4.1 billion in 2002. What goes around comes around, and also benefits Americans."

This is what Thomas L. Friedman says in his article What Goes Around in today's New York Times.

Recommended reading : The lead article in the latest issue TIME magazine on outsourcing.

"The movie's message, as Jesus says, is that you must love not only those who love you, but more importantly those who hate you.

"So presumably you should come out of the theater suffused with charity toward your fellow man.

"But this is a Mel Gibson film, so you come out wanting to kick somebody's teeth in. In 'Braveheart' and 'The Patriot,' his other emotionally manipulative historical epics, you came out wanting to swing an ax into the skull of the nearest Englishman. Here, you want to kick in some Jewish and Roman teeth. And since the Romans have melted into
history . . ."

From Maureen Dowd's article "Stations of the Cross" in today's New York Times.

National Coalition for the Homeless Alerts

We are still in the chapter about Tom Hayden and he says:-
"The idealists are always young. Young people are like eagles. They can see a long way and they don't have any hindsight. They're always discovering something new, and they don't carry as much of the burden of the old."
As you folks read about the movie, the possible change of Social Security, the members of your family or your friends going overseas to battle-torn areas, etc. etc. -- do you feel you are carrying a burden? Are you an idealist or not?

Robby

I am constantly being accused of being an idealist. I have always been an idealist. Ruth my friend and I were drawn together at 11yrs of age because we were idealists even then. I got married later but Ruth went on to become heavily involved in politics for years.

The burden lies on the shoulders of the world, not just mine. I was an idealist to the point of being stupid and denying reality. I am no longer that way, but still carry some hope around, even when there doesn't seem to be any.

Mal

Same-sex marriage is even more news worthy when it involves A NAME that you know.

Robby

Traude, You asked "how did we manage to get from a surplus to such a colossal deficit in only four years?" We got there the same way we did in the Lyndon Johnson years: WAR!!!

In the next chapter of Studs' book, Arlo Guthrie says:-"My job is to continue the work ofmy dad -- making people feel good about who they really are."
In this ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times, it is stated that "women of the baby-boom generation tend to have close female friendships. Many have watched the slow death of their parents, dependent on children or paid caretakers. They want something better for themselves. Aging with friends could be the answer."
I can see the sense of that. In my opinion, loneliness is one of the most powerful negative emotions. And I note in the Times' quote the phrase "with friends." In this age of Internet and specifically Senior Net, "with" does not necessarily mean physically. Any comments here on this topic?

Robby

Someone, who recently passed on, I considered one of my finest friends and confidentes. I had never met her but she helped me through a few hard times with her gentle humor and "down to earth" attitude. I think that the anonymity of the email exchange lends for a more honest and humble relationship between people. I shall forever miss her.

Quite honestly I consider my friends at SeniorNet more like family and best friends.

"A friend is someone who knows you and loves you in spite of your faults."

I've moved a great deal in my life, and the only lifelong friends I have are my brother and my two sisters. Our family was separated when our mother died. My sisters and I lived together only for a very brief time. Our friendship has been through rare visits and correspondence. It's been years since I've seen them and my brother, yet there exists a closeness among us.

My daughter and I are close friends. When she lived in this town my granddaughter, now 27, and I were very good friends.

The only real female friend I have here is legally blind. Since I have trouble walking, we don't see each other any more.

I'd be much more lonely without this computer. I am housebound most of the time and alone 23 hours a day. Through SeniorNet I've met many people, among them some I call friends. I've never met these people face to face, but hope to meet some of them at the Virginia Bash in May.

I wouldn't like living in a community where there were only women. I went to and graduated from a women's college. All of us missed men!

Oh, yes. It seems as if there are some men of my generation who need a woman to look after them. I don't find that true of men in younger generations, who can cook and clean and take care of themselves as well as, if not better, than if a woman was around to fuss over them.

Mal

PASTURES OF PLENTY
by Woody Guthrie

It's a mighty hard row that my poor hands have hoed

My poor feet have traveled a hot dusty road

Out of your Dust Bowl and Westward we rolled

And your deserts were hot and your mountains were cold

I worked in your orchards of peaches and prunes

I slept on the ground in the light of the moon

On the edge of the city you'll see us and then

We come with the dust and we go with the wind

California, Arizona, I harvest your crops

Well its North up to Oregon to gather your hops

Dig the beets from your ground, cut the grapes from your vine

To set on your table your light sparkling wine

Green pastures of plenty from dry desert ground

From the Grand Coulee Dam where the waters run down

Every state in the Union us migrants have been

We'll work in this fight and we'll fight till we win

It's always we rambled, that river and I

All along your green valley, I will work till I die

My land I'll defend with my life if need be

Cause my pastures of plenty must always be free

This land is your land
(God blessed America for me)
by Woody Guthrie
Original manuscript

This land is your land, this land is my land

From California to the New York Island,

From the Redwood Forest, to the Gulf stream waters,

[God blessed America for me.]

As I went walking that ribbon of highway

And saw above me that endless skyway,

And saw below me the golden valley, I said:

[God blessed America for me.]

I roamed and rambled and followed my footsteps

To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts,

And all around me , a voice was sounding:

[God blessed America for me.]

Was a high wall there that tried to stop me

A sign was painted said: Private Property,

But on the back side it didn't say nothing --

[God blessed America for me.]

When the sun come shining, then I was strolling

In wheat fields waving and dust clouds rolling;

The voice was chanting as the fog was lifting:

[God blessed America for me.]

One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple

By the Relief Office I saw my people --

As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if

[God blessed America for me.]

SOMEBODY TURN ON THE LIGHTS

ARLO GUTHRIE

I've been to wild Montana

I went there in a storm

My boots were Texas leather

My Levis wet and torn

I loved it in Montana

Loved it in the storm

I think I'm gonna cross that river

I just might be reborn

New York, New York - winter, '61

Takin' me a city ride

Somebody tall musta put out the lights

'Cause it got real dark outside

CHORUS:

And I never saw the sun till '71

But I never gave up the fight

I sure was glad when I saw the dawn

Somebody, somebody turned on the light

Somebody turned on the light

Women, wine and fast red cars

And I couldn't see to read the signs

Somebody said "Whose life is this?"

And I said that it can't be mine

CHORUS

When the world is wrong better right yourself

It'll make the dark clouds fly

Nobody tall can put out the lights

Just don't let the spirit die

If you never see the sun till '91

Don't you ever give up the fight

Sure be glad when you see the dawn

Somebody, somebody turns on the light

Somebody turns on the light

MAL: amazing! I was just singing "this land is Your land" at a celebration, and had no idea those weren't the original words!!

The words we sing are inspiring too:

"This land belongs to you and me"

That is the essence of our activism.

Yes; Woodie Guthrie's songs are great and moving. I like Arlo Guthrie's statement, "He (his dad) wrote in an era when songs were more than just entertainment, they were a part of life."

Then, "The best part of my dad's work has been distilled into some of the iedas that he wrote in prose that say that the value of being human is that you cannot be imitated by anybody else. No matter where you come from, how big or tall, how fat or thin, how educated or uneducted, how much money you have, who your parents were, what yoiur tradition is, you hve a unique value. He wanted people to take pride in who they were."

To me, that speaks greatly of hope -- and encouraging hope.

I have not participated in this discussion but have been active in the discussion concerning the hype over Mel Gibson's movie. Robby suggested there that I post here the same message I posted there. I don't have it before me but I decried the mania that has been sweeping over the networks concerning this movie and suggested that we drop it and get back to what really impacts our lives like Social Security, jobs, and oh yes, the fact that over 500 of our men have been killed as a result of a despicable lie. Now, as a diversion and distraction we are being deluged with frantic pleas against same sex marriage. Al Sharpton put it in its proper place during the Democratic "debate" the other night when he said "it doesn't matter who you go to sleep with, what's important is that you both have a job to go to in the morning". If I may I would like to include here two quotes I consider very appropriate at this time in our nation:

"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?" (The Bible)

"The things that will destroy us are politics without principle, pleasure without conscience, wealth without work, knowledge without character, business without morality, science without humanity and worship without sacrifice. (Mahatma Gandhi)

Gail

Oh yes, yes, yes, Gail. Too much political trivia is being introduced to divert us from the real issues-the 500+ dead and several thousand wounded because of a despicable lie and the absence of jobs for Americans in this land of plenty. Where are the Arlo Guthrie's to sing our songs and talk about our sad state?

I wonder if A.B. Guthrie is related to the chaps. A.B. is a novelist par excellence, who deals in the American Far West. His "Arfive" and "Big Sky" novels are giants of the American literary genre.

No, Justin; a bio of A.B. or of Woodie does not show a relationship.

Ref. Gibson's movie: Why see the movie if you've read The Book? Gotta admit the man knows how to hype a movie.

Aviaqua: Mel Gibson is not "hyping" his movie by himself. The heads of the various "news" channels are lending him very able assistance in putting forth their seemingly joint agenda. And what about all the churches who are buying up blocks of seats by the hundreds (with the proceeds further lining MG's pockets). There is a purpose behind this madness and we have to be alert to whatever repercussions follow the release of this distortion of the little we do know of Christ and his times. I wonder how the human being Jesus would react to the news of the thousands of cases of sexual abuse by priests of innocent children.

If ever there was a need for hope for a decent future for our children and grandchildren, this is certainly it. They face a future of job scarcity, diminished educational opportunities, increased taxes to pay for our shameful incursion into Iraq, religious hypocrisy in many areas, loss of individual freedom to speak and act contrary to the prevailing "leadership". But as has been stated here and deserves repeating, hope without action serves no purpose and it is therefore incumbent upon those of us who have lived through other menacing times, and have hopefully learned from them, to be alert and vocal and find any way possible to exert our influence so that our "kids" may truly hope.

Oh, I agree that he isn't doing it alone -- and that the young folks today need all the support and help possible.

Says Arlo Guthrie:-"We have used up most of our humanity in inhuman ways. That's the great disaster. So we end up weak instead of strong."

Robby

I've been checking out this discussion from time to time, while practicing extreme discipline in not getting myself into yet another project or discussion (if you could see my schedule for the upcoming week, you'd understand).

With that said, I can't hold this one back! In the spirit of Mark Twain (whose work will be featured in a March S/N discussion) here's a re-write of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" he wrote a little over 100 years ago. Some things never change, huh?

Battle Hymn of the Republic (Re-write) Mark Twain (Brought Down to Date) (1901)

Mine eyes have seen the orgy of the launching of the Sword; He is searching out the hoardings where the stranger's wealth is stored; He hath loosed his fateful lightnings, and with woe and death has scored; his lust is marching on.

I have seen him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps; They have builded him an altar in the Eastern dews and damps; I have read his doomful mission by the dim and flaring lamps -- His night is marching on.

I have read his bandit gospel writ in burnished rows of steel: "As ye deal with my pretensions, so with you my wrath shall deal; Let the faithless son of Freedom crush the patriot with his heel; Lo, Greed is marching on!"

We have legalized the strumpet and are guarding her retreat;* Greed is seeking out commercial souls before his judgement seat; O, be swift, ye clods, to answer him! be jubilant my feet! Our god is marching on!

In a sordid slime harmonious Greed was born in yonder ditch, With a longing in his bosom -- and for others' goods an itch. As Christ died to make men holy, let men die to make us rich -- Our god is marching on.

That's great, NANCY. Thank you for posting it.

Mal

Thanks, Nancy. I have never seen that before. Mark Twain was not one to have his right to free speech curtailed! Remarkable how timely a piece done a hundred years ago is.

I think that you will find this article in today's NYTimes an interesting view of the early gospels and in particular the role of Mary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/28/opinion/28KRIS.html?hp

I have a recalcitrant computer. It must be Irish like me...bullheaded ..because it wont behave as a computer is supposed to behave. Hopefully my SIL will be able to improve its manners and I will suffer no more from being unceremoniously dumped ...

You have all written some very thoughful posts and perhaps by tomorrow I will be able to post as well.

Hope dies last.....I dont think that is true but it certainly suffers a lot...anna

Hi Nancy:-Nice to have you with us.
This discussion is addictive, isn't it?
Anna:-Why don't you think Hope dies "last?"

Robby

Here is why I am so positive.

Four years ago I was diagnosed with cancer of the prostate. It was suggested that I not do the surgery, radiation or seeding, but use the hormonal treatment. My cancer is now dormant and will probably remain so until I die of something else.

I have suffered bouts of back pain the past year caused by two compression fractures, disk degenerative disease and probably osteoporosis (the diagnosis isn't in as yet on my bone scan).

My doctor gave me hope when I felt there was none. The doctor was willing to go to pain management and give me all the pain killers necessary to stay comfortable. It is a deal and it appears I can live with it.

My wife died three years ago, I have moved to a new location near my son. And.........I have found a new love, someone to share the rest of our lives together. Hope dies last--for sure.

I understand ...and when I re read what I wrote and Robby's question I thought what I was trying to say ..HOPE NEVER DIES...it may suffer a lot as you did through all your illnesses and the loss of your wife but it is there ...and when your pain was managed you moved on...and I understand that too ..I am so glad you found someone....and it says a lot when you say the rest of our lives..that is hope...

anna

We have taken another step toward to the abyss today. First Bush lies to get us into war. Then he curbs the press in reporting the dead to minimize the cost of the war. Caskets at Dover Air Force Base are off limits to photographers. Yesterday, it was announced by the Defense Department that the Pentagon would start a "news agency" to ensure "balanced reporting". The army is not happy that the press finds suicide bombers and daily reports of dead soldiers so worthy of publication. The Army will take it's own pictures, write it's own stories, and distribute them free of charge to any and all news outlets. That's what Pravda did.

The evening news is full of the story about the Justice Dept's subpoena to extract hospital medical records for all patients who have had abortions. Several physicians have sued the government because many late term abortions are medically necessary. Access to the best medical care has been restricted by recent legislation banning "partial birth abortions." Bush continues to hurt people everywhere he can.

"That's what Pravda did" you are right. We need to keep an eye on this, see whether we can tell if future news stories come from the defense dept, and whether we are getting other news as well.

THIS IS WHAT IS SO GREAT ABOUT THE INTERNET - We can read almost any magazine or newspaper anywhere. A very reputable one is The Guardian which emanates from England. Less bias than we have, that's for sure.

Spmething encouraging happened last week.Texas has been too long judged by the Conn. wannabe in DC.

The state if Texas is very large. It differs widely in geographical areas--from east Texas piney woods to prairies to deserts--from tropical climate to very cold and everything inbetween--it has streams, lakes and the ocean. It has four large cities and countless smaller communities of varying sizes and populations.They vary hreatly in lifestyles and philosophies. There is no such thing as a typical Texan.A large portion of its inhabitants are from outside the state.Texas has been excoriated for its conservatism and religiousity which most certainly exists, as it does in every state of the union.

This past week the Dallas City Council formally condemned sections of the Patriot Act (the very name makes me gag) as"unconstitutional and a threat to the liberties it says it defends".

The city of Austin, the state Capitol, has passed a similar resolution. Other cities have passed like resolutions-Baltimore, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia and Seattle.

This is a sort of municipal avtivism and engenders hope.

How 'bout that y'all?

Hank

If a city council passes an ordinance denouncing a federal law, I would definitely call that ACTIVISM! Especially in Texas!!
Arlo Guthrie says in Studs' book:-"My first political action in support of the rights of people was for them to say what they want and be who they are without other people second-guessing their patriotism.

Robby

The first chapter in Studs' book is about Dennis Kucinich. Here is a brief article about him in this morning's NY Times.

DENNIS KUCINICH has been the target of many jokes as he marches winless through the Democratic primaries. So how does the Ohio representative carry on? One reason is that so far he can afford to, thanks in part to taxpayer money.

In February, Mr. Kucinich drew more public financing than any other candidate, according to the Federal Election Commission. He received $2.1 million in public money, even though he raised only $5.5 million from donors through January, far less than Senator John Kerry's $24 million or Senator John Edwards's $16 million.

Public financing matches individual contributions up to $250, and the campaign's high number of small, matchable donations lifted its take, said Phillip Mohorich, the Kucinich campaign finance director.

Among the remaining Democrats, only Mr. Kucinich and Mr. Edwards are receiving public money. Mr. Kerry declined matching funds, and Al Sharpton's request has not yet been approved by the F.E.C. Over time, Mr. Kucinich has received less than most candidates, about $2.9 million in matching funds so far, Mr. Mohorich said. Next month, Mr. Kucinich is expected to receive only about $228,000 in public financing. Thereafter, it is unclear whether he qualifies. "We are all bracing for the fact that the rest of the campaign may be solely contribution-based,'' Mr. Mohorich said.

Is public financing meant for such long-shot candidates? "The system gives people a shot at it," said Trevor Potter, a former F.E.C. chairman and a Republican. But "it has safeguards so that people like Kucinich don't game it."

Did you know that there are 111 more billionaires this year than last? Click HERE for some interesting info.
In the next chapter John Kenneth Galbraith says that "the word capitalism is somewhat obsolete because power has passed in the modern corporation from the owners, now nicely called the investors, to management."

Robby

are needed in business. That is where our government is lacking also--honest, competent elected and hired officials.

The loss of control seems to happen when business, and government, gets big.

Having a small business, however, is no guarantee that there will be honest and competent managers.

One thing is for sure, government cannot legislate a solution to the problem of honesty in business, much less government.

Govt can legislate with Compliance requirements with very strong penalties if they should not be carried out.

Carolyn

Hope dims for me that we will ever solve the problem of inflation and its effects upon our pension systems, Social Security and health care.

Our government cooks the books when it comes to the national debt relative to what is owed to future recipients of Social Security and Medicare. There is no "trust fund" for SS, only a stack of government IOUs to be paid by future taxes.

The day of accountability will soon arrive--for the next generations.

That is providing a serious deflation does not take place first. That is what happened in 1928 when just about all HOPE was dashed to pieces on the rocks of financial disaster.

I live on an Illinois State pension as a retired educator. If the state were to pay what it owes the state pension systems, it would take $58 billion of taxpayer money to get the job done. You read it correctly, BILLION with a "b."

AND......this country faces more retirees and fewer workers paying taxes.

Uncle Sam can always cook the books some more and hope for inflated tax income.

While I do not want this discussion group to get into religious topics, I think that this article in today's NYTimes explains why I am so upset at the release and popularity of Mel Gibson's movie. My wife and I disagree as to the possible effects of the movie - I see it at feeding anti semitism particularly in Europe. Again no need for comment here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/opinion/01SAFI.html?hp

when one group chooses to bring their religion into the public and governmental sector?????????

My son saw the movie, and described its violence in discusting detail. He said the last 45 minutes of the movie were basicly a torture scene. I asked him about anti-semitism, but that aspect had not made an impression. What could possibly be the purpose of such a movie, if not to stir up hate, or satisfy sadistic impulses?

My guess (and I know I am talking like a psychologist) is that Gibson used this "artistic" medium to resolve some inner torment, either regarding his father, -- who, I read was not the most pleasant person -- or for some other reason.

Robby

Anyone want to be an activist for or against this REPRODUCTIVE TECHNOLOGY?

Hitler was before his time had come as he would be well accepted today to create a superior people.

Today I saw an advertisement for human growth hormone. Apparently people are taking it to ward off aging and for dieting purposes. In my opinion not enough is known about this stuff and there have been problems with it in the past. Eating healthily and in moderation is the only solution to weight loss in my opinion and to maintaining a good weight. We are very lazy these days and would prefer to do nothing and take a pill. I think we should be encouraging our families especially the grands to keep off junk foods. One of my grands has sky high blood sugar and he is only 6. It has been causing behaviour problems at home and at school. They have a pantry at home which is the size of my bedroom - its a proper room and the kids go in there and help themselves all day. The shelves are full of convenience foods. I am saying we should be active in encouraging our families to cook from scratch and to eat a healthy diet. I believe a lot of the behaviour problems in schools is caused by kids being high on sugar - too much coca cola and junk food.

You said families should cook from scratch and eat healthy meals more or less and I agree. I seen a runner on the road today and thoughht about how the energy was put to waste when it could be put to some better use such as rotterting a garden for someone, I would pay good money to have someone garden for me now that I cannot any more, Oh for the good food that I remember but get No more, I cannot even get someone to load cured (meaning year old) horse manure for my lawn so it is going down hill and I Will Not put the chemicals on my lawn, no siree. I still have a well and even if I did Not still I do not want the chemicals as that is one of the reasons so many have allergies me thinks.

Oh I could rant and rave over the taste and nutriction of our food today compared to times past as we lived well in times past pertaing to food and got Lots of exercise to boot.

I have long been a supporter of Alan Greenspan, but this Op Ed piece in the NYTimes makes me wonder. The economics of Social Security and Medicare are so large and confusing that it is difficult for laymen to understand. Now I question the expert.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/opinion/02KRUG.html?hp

When I listen to Carolyn and Ginger on the subject of illness of young people, with which I agree, I wonder if perhaps our older generation is a very lucky one -- lucky because of our hard times in our earlier years. Look at us today. Yes, we are subject to the various ailments that have existed for centuries but, in general, we get around and our minds are sharp.
As both of them indicate, life is made too easy for those growing up today. It all started immediately after World War II. The inventions and discoveries that took place during the war were now going to be put to the "benefit" of the people -- convenience this and convenience that. We had had a terrible war and now we were going to have the "rest that we deserved." Don't walk if you can ride. Don't cook if you can buy something ready made. Don't study if you can get a good mark just by sitting back. Don't face the harsh truth if you can succeed by lying.
I repeat -- I believe that many of us in this generation started all this. We promised ourselves that we would not have our children and grandchildren go through what we went through. And guess what? We succeeded. And guess what? In the process we taught them to be lazy.
Mother nature will not be fooled. She says (and has always said):-"Use it or lose it!"

Robby

GEORGE, if Greenspan is bowing to edicts from this administration, he does not have the impartiality needed to do his job. I've thought about this before now.

ROBBY, my grandchildren may be an exception, but they're in no way lazy. All of them are very bright kids, study much too hard, really, and do exceptionally well in school.

My North Carolina grandson, Hil, shows every sign of being a workaholic like his parents and his maternal grandparents. He is very nutrition conscious, as is my Connecticut granddaughter, who also works very hard at her job.

Though Hil owns a car, he has used it rarely since he's been at the university, and it sits parked at his father's home. One weekend recently he walked five miles to go pick it up for a weekend special occasion. He is majoring in mathematics.

I have to say here that most of his friends are the same way he is. His girlfriend goes to a college in Virginia, where she is majoring in Japanese. When she comes home for vacations she waits table at a restaurant to help her widowed mother pay her college debts. Perhaps your generality about young people is a little too broad. I do know what you're saying, however.

Mal

Mal:-I'm sure your grandchildren are an exception. There are many exceptions. But, as Carolyn and Ginger indicate, there are too many of the other kind to ignore.

Robby

Robby, I disagree as to when children started to change. I think that most children (I taught for twenty years) were hard working and reasonably well brought up until maybe 1970 or 1975. I think that two things had a huge affect on young people - The Vietnam War and television. It is hard to generalize on matters like this. For instance, my grand children, with maybe one exception, are hard working, motivated, and not lazy at all. I agree that their values are in keeping with their parents values. And of course that is the point - if the parent does not have values to impart, the children will not develop those values. They will not get them in school or from the church or their peers. Parenting is vital. How many single parents are trying to raise children? How many children have lived through difficult divorces? How many children are left in front of TV sets for hours at a time? I have no ideas about how society can convince teenagers that they need to be responsible particularly if they have children. Many of today's parents are themselves so immature that good parenting is not possible. Of course, I speak without statistics to back me up - just general impressions. As a teacher I found that every adult was an expert parent in their own eyes.

Carolyn, How right you are. I found that the best cook I ever met had a very small food cupboard, she went out for groceries every day for food she needed for the next meal. She went to one merchant for bread another for fruits and vegetables, another for meat and cheeses, another for wine. That was in France, but in Montreal I can't go to the store every day because the food chain is too far and too big and our winter is too hard. But my food cupboard is small and my fridge is always almost empty. Still I cook everything from scratch except bread.

Carolyn, if your grandson has sky high blood sugar, he is already diabetic and I'm sorry to day that he will be in insulin therapy soon. My daughter became insulin dependent when she was 7 years old. Children can't cope with pills that lower blood sugar and it will be painful for everybody in that house to have him go on a strict diet while the others won't have to.

Robby, In my house there was no junk food. Our life was simpler and healthier, but I don't blame my generation for how badly people eat today or how they live. They have a choice.

Ginger, You are fortunate to have land around your house and I agree about chemicals, but you can't always buy food grown without pesticides, herbicides. It's not easy to buy biological food but we can and it costs more.

George, yes on all counts except the Vietnam war. We didn't have that. Single parenting is the cause of many problems for children.

Comfort is a nice thing to have and Post War children had it. They never went hungry, never froze in winter or suffered much in any way. We wanted them to have the security of not going through what we went through. Why blame us for that? But as George said, first parents should teach children responsability and respect.

Eloïse

All three, whether they are private or government sponsored are in deep financial trouble.

A declining tax base during our recent downturn has once again emphasized the problem.

The big item--Greenspan's plan for fighting inflation--low interest rates have hurt income from investments which propel pension plans, insurance company premiums and income for senior savers.

Low interest rates or great for free-wheeling spenders and our debt ridden government.

We cannot have it both ways and the next generations pay big time.

I don't think some of our previous posters recognize the impact of the working mother. She has no time to shop frequently (often she must shop on Saturday and take the children with her). She has little time to cook, and so she frequently prepares food that is different (and perhaps less nutritious) tfrom that we made for our families. One of my physician daughters has three children between 11 and 7. She frequently gets home after 7:00. She then has dinner to cook and the homework and baths to supervise. It was truly appalling when they were smaller. While she has a husband, he is very much invested in his own work and works long hours also. She does all the things I did for our children, and most of the things my husband did in the growing years. I cannot imagine how she does it.

I will say proudly that all five of my children cook, including the two sons. But nobody has the time to invest that I did, even when I was completing my college degree. One of the luxuries of retirement is time to shop and time to cook from scratch. I also had the luxury of never HAVING to have a full time job, although I did for some years. Believe me, it makes an enormous difference.

I just remembered some children from my childhood who had only beans and corn bread six days a week with chicken on Sunday and the father always got his choice of that so Not everyone had a balanced diet like some of us. Most of these children moved alot as they followed the harvest, picking the harvest in the fields.

I disagree completely that mothers have no time to cook. I was a full time working mother and cooked from scratch every night. Remember we have microwaves! As soon as I walked in the door I began to prepare dinner. I even managed to make old fashioned desserts for the kids as I adapted a lot of my childhood recipes to the microwave. Stir frys take little time to prepare and they are very nutritious. If you don't have time to prepare the vegs for the stirfrys here in NZ you can buy frozen vegetables already prepared for stir frying - to that you can add another couple of vegs. The froz vegs are processed at peak freshness so they are fine. You see the problem is however that most kids these days will NOT eat vegetables and I am ashamed to say that my grands will turn their noses up at most vegetables although they will eat brocolli and carrots ( thank goodness). My kids ate any sort of vegetable because they were given them at a very early age and there was no alternative to eating their dinner (there was no junk food in the cupboards!) Snack food in our house was cheese, crackers, and I always homebaked some sort of cookie and I always had icecream in the big freezer ( plain icecream). I thought icecream was at least nutritious because of the milk content. I did not have fizzy drinks or potato chips in the pantry. My children were allowed cups of milky tea. For the winter you can do a casserole over night in the slow cooker and refrigerate then reheat as soon as you come in at night. There are many more appliances available to make cooking from scratch easy.

Carolyn

From today's NY Times. The entire article can be read at: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/02/business/02retire.html?th

WASHINGTON, March 1 - When Alan Greenspan urged Congress last week to cut future benefits in Social Security and Medicare, sending elected officials to the barricades, he was if anything understating the magnitude of the problems ahead. Today's budget deficits are measured in the hundreds of billions, but the looming shortfalls for the two retirement programs are projected to be in the tens of trillions of dollars.END QUOTE

Trillions????? The magnitude of what Congress has done is incomprehensible---and probably unfixable!

Imagine if all the money used on space exploration WMD etc had been put into a locked fund for future use. I am sick to death of Govts saying they have no money for caring for the vulnerable - they find money to spend on the war machine without any trouble whatsoever.

George; You introduce a side topic that, today, causes serious concern for thinking people everywhere. Here in this discussion, we have ducked it so far. You raised the issue and then warned others off. There is no HOPE for settlement of the PASSION problem if we don't face it head on. Mel Gibson has put it out for people who profess to be Christian to understand the reality of their beliefs.

Mel Gibson invites Christians to look at what they profess and to judge it's worthiness. Joan's son looked and saw only the brutality. Safire looked and saw the evil that Europe saw every ten years at Oberamegau in the century before the Holocaust. He saw the line in Matthew "His blood be on us and on our children." He saw the Romans wash their hands of the man's death. He saw the High Priest declare the man guilty of blasphemy. He saw Jewish guilt painted all over the Passion. What's to be done about it?

My daughter a no nonsense accountant saw the Passion of Christ the other night. She phoned me to report that her faith was strengthened by seeing the film. She said that she did not think it was anti semitic at all. She said she did have a good cry and heard many other sobs around her. Crucifixion was violent and horrible. Thats fact. She thought about mans inhumanity to man.

As displayed in posts in various discussions in SeniorNet, there are people who think "The Passion of Christ" shows the truth of what happened to Jesus Christ. They are believing this movie as if it were gospel, when it is simply Mel Gibson's gospel stated in two languages not many people in my country and many other countries understand. What I find hard to comprehend is the fact that people would willingly pay their hard-earned money to go and see the torture and death of a man at the hands of other men. If I allowed myself to, I could get riled up about this.

If this film fiction is ever shown on TV I may watch it to see what all the fuss has been about, hoping in the meantime that Gibson's venture does not do the damage I think it will do.

Mal

Everything that comes to our minds through our eyes and ears and other senses is an interpretation. The movie is the crucifixtion as Mel Gibson sees it. The Bible is a series of interpretations as it was changed from Monk to Monk as it passed on down through the centuries. What we say to each other here is our interpretation.
Reality is what we think it is -- our perception -- our understanding. Those of us who have been following Durant's "Story of Civilization" realize that while Durant is doing the best he can to tell the progess of mankind as he sees it, that nevertheless it is his interpretation. The very fact that one movie can cause opposing feelings shows the combination of our interpretation of Gibson's interpretation of the Bible's interpretation.
As has been said here previously, we are talking about a movie, not the ancient event.

Robby

Justin, I am happy that some are passionate about the Passion. And I am particularly struck by Robbie's comment - "Reality is what we think it is - our perception- out understanding." And that is precisely what worries me about the movie. We are a fairly sophisticated group, many with deeply held religious convictions. We are also a fairly liberal group and accept people for what they are. But what about the people who see the movie who are not so liberal, not so accepting, and looking for ways to support all ready biased views. For them, the reality of the film is quite different than it is for us.

One could argue, "So What?" These people are all ready prejudiced and the film just supports their views. I say it is work like this that fanned anti semitism for 2000 years. And given the sad state of the world, we do not need extreme violence to one man on view yet again.

However, I have no doubt that Christians, particularly in the US, will find the film both disturbing and meaningful. It may help to increase their faith.

I, too, have no plans to see the film soon. It arrives in Cayman next week and some of the churches here are using it as a fund raiser. Since this is a very religiously conservative country, I have no doubt that the Passion will attract large audiences here.

And one other point - for some the movie is not just a movie, it will appear to be an accurate account of one of the most important events in the history of Western Civilization. After all it IS Mel Gibson's reality.

George, Respectfully, I disagree with this up to a point. "After all it IS Mel Gibson's reality." Mel Gibson is a Hollywood actor, director and in Hollywood a film is about making money. Nothing else. The violence of that film is what will make people go see it as that is what makes movies popular.

At the Academy Awards last Sunday we saw the idols parading in their 3 million dollar SHOES studded with diamonds and rubies, their designer gowns, some encrusted with pearls and diamonds. I gasped when someone ATE the head off a chocolate miniature Oscar layered with GOLD which each guest had received at a dinner offered to hundreds of selected guests after the awards. One dish was caviar on a baked potato, for Pete's sakes, caviar on a baked potato? No. The shrine or the arena (The Kodak building) holding I don't know how many thousands was filled to the brim with celebrities, the stars where the best are acclaimed. Hundreds of statuettes were distributed.

Hollywood is the new Temple and its gods and goddesses are the actors.

The Passion film will go the way the other movies have gone. It will become an has-been just like The Lord Of The Rings in a very short while and the movie fans will flock to a new film even more violent film.

I disagree, ELOISE. "The Passion of Christ" is much more to its creator than just making money.

I'm sure you're aware that many of the diamond-encrusted gowns, the jewels, and the gem-studded shoes were on loan from either a manufacturer or a store like Cartier's. It's great free advertising. They're the stuff of a make believe fairyland that the ordinary person living in a duplex or box house in a tract development wants to see.

It's my projection that "The Passion of Christ" and "Lord of the Rings" will be around a long, long time. Look at "Gone With The Wind", for example.

Mal

is the economic knowledge that would put an end to the FINANCIAL MESS being created by our out-of-control government.

Credit is a double-edged sword which propels our economy to highs, only to dash it upon the rocks of disaster by bankruptcy. Germany after WWI is a prime example of the rise and economic fall of empires.

This was avoided after WWII, with the Marshall Plan. What is the "plan" for the coming economic disaster in our country? Who will help? Those we are helping and have helped in the past?

Economic "truths" are as varied as the "spiritual truths" which propel the population.

Economic truths cannot be easily manufactured and distorted as spiritual truths. Reality will eventually set in and hope must die, only to be revived with a new generation with new leaders and new "truths."

Kiwi's daughter saw it and experienced a strengthening of her faith. That's fine. But that does not change the basic argument of the Passion. The argument is made in Matthew and is undoubtedly, repeated in Gibson's "Passion". That argument of cause and effect has been the source of countless pogrums as well as the holocaust.

One cannot read the message of Matthew, chapter 27, without placing blame. Fortunately, Matthew is not a "best seller". It is read only occasionally, even by the those who see themselves as pious. The fundementalist is excepted. It is only when Matthew's work is placed on public exhibit that the great mass of religious people are once again exposed to the sin against their God. The problem and it's consequences are evident. The question is, "What can be done about it?"

Having been raised a Catholic, I pretty much had my fill of reenactments of biblical times, including the Passion so wil not attend this newest version. I did read the column that you gave us the link to and was disgusted with the columnist's comments on the movie. And sorry, too, that we have to go over and over the story and blame someone. To me it makes the Christians of today as bad as the members of Islam who hate so many for past sins. As I said to my husband, the only reasons that I can see for Mel Gibson to have made this movie was :1. He could and 2. It will make him a lot of money. The pre-movie controversy seemed contrived also, just a ploy for Gibson to use to attract more attention to his movie.

Greenspan Plays Down Threat to Economy

The Maestro of Chutzpah

Medicare and Social Security Challenge

The Social Security Promise Not Yet Kept

Here are four articles that were printed in the NYT over the last week about Greenspan. The 4th has some amazing figures in it. Anyone know more??

And letters to the editor about the Greenspan articles:

C ut Benefits to Save the Tax Cuts? 6 letters

The movie is deiniitely not about making money. It is about Mel Gibson's small Catholic cult. He is not a member of the greater Catholic Church. He is much like John Trevolta is to Scientology, except Gibson's group is not large. But he is able to proselytize using his own funds as Trevolta did to produce a terrible science fiction work of Ron Turner.

His film so far is most appealing to right wing Christian Conservatives.

I think we need to be wary.

I found this while googling. Gibson is called a "pre VaticanII Catholic".

http://www.christianitytoday.com/cr/2004/002/1.30.html

Nana with respect I think you are unaware that many Christians such as my daughter who went to see the film and are not either catholics or fundamentalists found the film moving and faith building.

Israel's Chief Rabbi, Yona Metzgar, in a face to face meeting with the Pope, John Paul ll, urged the Pope to publicly declare Jews are not to blame for the death of Jesus. Unfortunately, the Pope can not do that. Such would be tantamount to denying the words of Matthew. Barring Papal denial of Matthew, there is little hope for interfaith communion and at the extreme edges of society little HOPE for Jewish safety. There is one other solution and that is for scholars to successfully point out that Matthew writing 70 years after the event, knew nothing of what he writes. Face it, that's a tough sell. Is there any other source of HOPE?

To take our minds off the Passion, I found this article by Tom Friedman most interesting. Though most of us are no longer in the work force, our children and grandchildren will have to face problems caused by globalization. Will the standard of living in the US take a tumble while other countries like China and India catch up? Does globalization mean equalization of pay around the world? Most of us will probably not be around to witness the outcome of these advances in technology.

It is interesting to me how rapidly technology is changing the world. Our group has witnessed the automobile boom, plastics, television, the web, anti biotics, etc, etc. The digital camera I bought my wife yesterday will probably be somewhat outdated in a year or less. Are human beings psychologically equipped to handle such rapid changes? Robbie??

Are technological advances a source of hope?

In my memory, back in the olden days, the pope in power in the 60's already accomplished not blaming the Jews for Jesus death. It was part of Vatican II, I think.

Lana, IMHO, I do believe that the movie was made to make money for Mel Gibson and his followers.

kiwi, I agree that many folks might find this an uplifting film and faith building, but, as I said, for me, it would be a repeat of many "Passion" plays that I viewed as a kid. Nothing new, except for the showing of the specific violence.

This morning, I opened my NYT and found that GB is now advocating opening same sex schools. To me, shotgun solutions!!

Did anyone read the columns about Greenspan? What say you all about the figures that are so freely thrown about there?

george, what article are you referring to?? I have quite a collection of articles about globalization so am interested in this one. Would you list it here? Thanks!

With the way our economic and pricing system is set up in the Western World there is no way we can work for peons wages and survive. Globalisation is indeed hurting the west badly as more and more jobs are outsourced. People on the minimum wage are living on the poverty line now in most Western Countries.

Educationalists have found by doing extensive research that boys in particular learn better if they are placed in same sex classes. Some schools here are splitting the classes and having same sex classes. It is a world wide effort to narrow the widening gap between girls and boys. Girls are achieving and boys are falling behind. We have always had the choice of same sex or co ed High Schools. Three of my children went to same sex schools and one to a co ed school. The same sex schools are very much in demand and there is great competition to get entry to them.

Carolyn

"Ms. (Marcia) Greenberger said her organization (National Women's Law Center) would consider challenging the new guidelines in court. She called the changes 'a very serious attack on the most fundamental principles underlying protections against sex discrimination under Title IX and under our Constitution,' and said they would 'set back progress that women and girls have made for over 30 years.' "

Who said here that women's rights are not threatened by this administration? It's back to the Dark Ages all right. The next thing will be a ruling that women don't deserve an education at all.

Source:

Same Sex Education

Mal have any of your kids attended same sex schools. Do you really know they are so bad? The academic results from same sex schools here in NZ are excellent. Why do you think parents are fighting to get their kids on the roll when they are out of zone here in NZ. Our top State schools are same sex. My kids all say they want their kids to go to same sex schools. The kids who attended same sex schools that is. The one who did not attend a same sex school is dubious. If same sex schools are so bad why would my kids who attended them want the same for their kids? I say don't knock it until you have tried it.

Carolyn

I went to an all Girls school in the fifties. There was a coed school with in walking distance but I choose to go to the all girls school because it had a very good rating. An most got really good grades because ther was little attention spent on the boys in the school because there wasn't any.

CAROLYN, no, my kids did not go to same sex schools because my husband and I thought it was unwise.

However, I attended for four years, and graduated from, a women's college in Massachusetts which is on a par with Harvard. We young women, especially those who had come out of all-girl preparatory schools, spent every spare minute we had talking about and longing for men. I found the environment completely unnatural, frankly. Some of the girls who had attended same sex schools all their lives had not the vaguest idea how to behave with men, and often went wild when they were with them. The world is just not segregated in this way.

If I had gone to a co-educational university I'd have had the same grades that I did at my college because that's the type of person I am. I missed men not just for the social contact, but because males don't think in the same way females do, and there can be a very good learning process in the exchange of ideas and thinking.

Mal

been reading all the posts...they dont call the movie "industry" because it is a non profit organization...If it is okay for the "industry" to make horrible movies about other subjects than why deny Gibson or whomever to make what they wish..I wont be seeing it because in my readings over the years I came to understand what crucifixion meant ...I avoid any movie that depicts violence..and of course there were Jews saying Crucify Him ..it didnt take place in France where the guillotine ruled, or Italy where gladiators fought to the death , or Spain during the inqusitions, or our wild west at hangings and lynchings...or any of the other examples of man's inhumanity to man. BUT the Jews of today were not responsible , the French of today are not responsible, nor am I responsible for the lynchings etc...I dont beleive anyone will have their opinion changed..if people want to blame another group or person for their problems then you cant stop them or make them change thier minds...

Frankly I think women particularly will benefit by same sex schooling and boys will as well. There is so much emphasis in schools today on sports ( being a jock) on being popular, ( I know that aspect will not change) but it will be less prevalent when the school emphasis is on education and not who is prom queen or members of the football court etc..or who can kick a football further. I am a product of public schools and my children had a mixed education being both in private schools ( both sexes) and public schools but I can see there is a vast difference in the interim...youth used to be a time of learning, of enjoying being young, I dont see that now. And since my grandchildren in school range from 4 year olds in kindergarten, to a 10 year old ...I can see both the good and bad in education.

We have a lengthy news paper article this am about home schooling ...and the results. No longer does a mother or father have to have a BA to teach their children...the children do have to pass state tests as all school children do. And I can understand the parents doing this..school is no longer a safe place..for many reasons...I am an activist when it comes to children..anna

Anna my daughter Vanessa was very bright but an air head in common sense when a teenager. She told me the other day that if there had been boys in her class she would have never been an A Student. As the boys school was just up the road they shared buses etc so she got to mix plenty with boys. Besides that she had two brothers and with their friends calling she saw lots of the opposite sex. Another thing that bugs me and my kids is the lack of streaming. Its not politically correct to encourage competition in the classroom therefore kids get out of school and get thrown into Uni where there is fierce competition and much emphasis on grades and they can be very shell shocked. Life is competitive and its unreal to provide a false environment in the classroom. We had streamed classes and thrived on it. We did not have disruptive kids in our classes as all the kids were bright and wanted to get on with learning. I don't think it is fair to bright kids to be held back. This is not saying that children who experience difficulties at school should not receive help - its important they should. World wide the education system in State schools is failing. Kids come out of school almost illiterate in some cases. We must fight for a decent education for all kids that they can become self supporting productive and fulfilled members of our society. I know I got a far better standard of education than my grands are getting. Perhaps there could be a world wide movement called "Grandparents fighting for better schools" There is something practical we can do also. We can volunteer to help at our local primary (elementary)schools to help kids to learn to read. Once reading is mastered the rest often falls into place. There is lots we can do.

Carolyn

It appears that we are having three -- and sometimes four - topics being covered at the same time. This makes it hard for us to concentrate on what the other person is saying. It might be helpful for me to reprint my first two postings which I hope is a role model for our discussion. I ask everyone -- please -- to re-read these two postings before continuing.

"My father had five brothers. When I was in my teens, just out of high school, I used to visit my grandparents and on occasional Sundays all seven of us men, which of course included myself, would find ourselves sitting around the dining room table and giving opinions.

Oh, did we have opinions! I was always precocious but my precociosity (I'm entitled to make up a word) was always accepted by my family. We gave opinions about the stock market, the coolies in China, the wisdom of New York's mayor (LaGuardia at that time), the condition of the school system, the possibility of war (it came to Europe two years later), the media (nine newspapers in NYC at that time but no TV), hunger in the world, how the pyramids were built (obviously we were all amateur engineers), the benefits of Italian food (did you think Iadeluca was an Irish name?), the future of the best baseball team in the nation (Brooklyn Dodgers of course), how to get along with women (I listened at that point), how to get a good job, why the Twentieth Century Limited train is able to get to Chicago so fast, animal rights, and on and on.

Our voices rose. We interrupted each other. We pounded the table. We looked at our "opponent" with disdain. Sarcasm might have entered the discourse -- debate? -- argument? What matter the title of the event. We had views and we gave them with no holds barred. We did tend to move along in some sort of organized fashion from one topic to another -- an organized chaos, if you will.

But you know what? No profanity ever. It was not part of our vocabulary. No commenting by one brother upon the character of the other. We even occasionally agreed. And we laughed. Oh, how we laughed. Sometimes laughing at the antics of someone else who was going to great lengths to prove a point. Sometimes laughing at ourselves. For an hour or two we took on the world.

Then out came the coffee and the pastries. Time for a breathing spell. Time to look inwardly and feel good about ourselves. We had opinions. We felt them strongly. And we had expressed them. Maybe we had changed someone else's mind and maybe we hadn't.

I repeat:- we took on the world. But make no mistake. It was not an exercise in public speaking. We were angry! We were angry at all the idiocy in this imperfect world. We didn't know if we could at that moment do anything about it but, by God, we were going to make our voices heard, even if only in the confines of one room. We were one step away from being activists.

A couple of us did take that step. One uncle used to stand on a corner in Times Square preaching the Marxist manifesto and selling the Daily Worker. Another uncle, an elevator operator, would trap an unsuspecting passenger between floors and get him to change his way of thinking. Many years later I, a World War II veteran, marched from Fordham University to the New York University uptown campus, being splattered with eggs on the way, as I helped protest the Vietnam War.

This is the spirit of this new discussion group. If ever you were extremely upset about something and wanted to speak up about it, this is the time and the place. Political views accepted? Of course. But if the only thing that bothers you in this life is the presidency, the congress, or the supreme court, or government in general, then you are thinking too narrowly and you are in the wrong forum. THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL DISCUSSION GROUP. We will talk here about "people" and their relationships with other people. No topic here is too large and none is too miniscule.

This is the spirit in which Studs Terkel wrote his book, "Hope Dies Last." His book is about Activism. He quotes Thomas Paine's vision of America written in 1791:-"Freedom has been hunted round the globe. Reason was considered as rebellion. The slavery of fear had made men afraid to think." And Studs adds:-"Here is where the activists enter the picture, as they always have. Paine assumed a society not simply of citizens, but of thinking citizens."

Through the medium of his book Studs will be our guide as we move along. We will follow his 325-page book as he moves us from his quote of Jessie de la Cruz at the start:-"I feel there's gonna be a change, but we're the ones gonna do it, not the government" to the quote at the end of the book by Kathy Kelly:-"We're going to change our lifestyles."

Thinking is the byword. Let us give our opinions. Shouting is permitted. Table pounding is encouraged. And perhaps not interrupting the other person too much. Tell it like it is or how you think it should be!!

robert b. iadeluca - 12:04pm Jan 22, 2004 PST (#2 of 871)
Books Discussion Leader
Well, here I am. A discussion Leader for a new forum built around organized chaos. I know that no one can herd cats. And all you cats are out there meowing to come in and say your piece.

I keep thinking of the hot discussions around our dining room table. Chaos? Yes. But even without a written agenda, there was also a form of organization. It was built around COURTESY AND CONSIDERATION. If one uncle brought up a topic (let's say "hunger), and a couple of other uncles responded, a third uncle didn't interject with "What about that last Dodger game?" He waited until it seemed that the current topic was almost exhausted and then came in with that new thought.

You folks get the idea. Please keep in mind that you are in the Books & Literature section of SN and that we are reviewing Studs' book. Along with that we are giving our own personal concerns which were brought to mind by reading this book. That is the purpose of this forum. We will start at the book's beginning (Introduction) and will then go chapter by chapter. I have read the book throughly and you will be amazed how following the various chapters will give you every opportunity to get your personal concerns off your chest. Every chapter is built around "passion for justice." This is why you are here -- right?

So before getting into specific concerns, let us take a general approach as Studs does in his Introduction. What is he telling us?"

Robby

In the next chapter about Wallace Rasmussen, he says:-"I've always made trouble. I can face anybody."
Whatever the topic bothering you, can you face anybody?

Robby

Rasmussen states: "If you are too ambitious it will chew you up."

A run for president has chewed up a lot of candidates but their candidacy certainly was built upon HOPE.

We cannot fault ambition but we can fault greed which propels some in the business world.

Is ambition a necessary part of hope for success in a presidential run or greed a necessary part of hope in the operation of a business?

E/H just anounced a new one day program;

http://www.elderhostel.org/programs/sanfran.asp

Since religion seems to be the cause of so much of the world's problems maybe this offers some hope.

We signed up to attend. Does this make us activists?

Seldom:-I read that link and would say that you will be an Activist if you actually "build a bridge" after learning how to do it.

Robby

I worry that they would have the same problem that schools for Blacks had when schools were segregated: less funding, less equipment, poorer teachers. That is not a problem now, but could be if same-sex schools became the rule in a locality.

Why does girls outperforming boys have anything to do with mixed sex schools? they both are under the same social pressures? If this is a move to help the boys catch up, than does that mean more funding and emphasis on boy's education?

Unless I have not been paying sufficient attention, most of what I have been reading here are people's opinions and not about action being taken on behalf of these opinions.
Studs, in his Introduction, says:-"Activism can be the writing of a letter, taking part in a local action or a national one, or, for that matter, a worldwide one. It can be in attending a rally or marching in a parade. This action can be in any form freely expressing your grievance or your hope."
In the area where I live, National Guardsmen have been called up to go overseas. This is going to be very hard for families left behind. I am working with the local newspaper whereby I will offer free therapy to members of these families.
Could that be called Activism or am I stretching that too much?

Robby

Did you read about the teacher that was called for active service from his reserve unit. He will spend two weeks in Italy. The school board wants him to pay his Substitute out of the money he gets from the military. Nice huh!

Anne, You have a good memory.Paul Vl , in 1965 convened Vatican ll which attempted to solve the probem. The V.2 solution fell short of the mark. It recognized that while some Jewish leaders and their followers had pressed for the death of Jesus, what happened in the passion cannot be charged against all Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. This kind of statement may be all that can be expected. It does not say they are without blame. But I recognize that it goes a long way toward reconciliation.

Yeah, it makes no sense to get steamed about things you can't do anything about, like that movie, for example. I can complain to my representatives in Congress about single sex schools, but I can't do much about the effect Mel Gibson's extravaganza has on non-Christians like me, or do much about being told I'm a candidate for Hell by people in SeniorNet and elsewhere who embrace this faith and close their minds and ears to information about places where they can learn about history.

Yes, ROBBY, you could have kept your mouth shut and not volunteered to help the families of these National Guardsmen. Of course, it's activism.

Can I face anybody and stand up for what I think and believe? I've done it over and over, and have only cowered and shaken when I got home and thought about what I'd said and done. That's still something I must overcome. Worrying after the fact doesn't make much sense either, now, does it?

I believe my next project will be to get in touch with some committee and tell whoever is in charge that I'm willing to use my telephoning ability and don't mine suffering the slings and arrows I've withstood before when I've campaigned for a Presidential Candidate. The road to the White House is not easy for more people than just the guy who agrees to stick his neck out to get there.

Mal

I used to have real trouble with authority figures and really speaking my mind but as I have got older I have become "bolshie" a word we use for being very assertive. Probably comes from the word bolshevik. My daughter has been embarassed by me speaking my mind before today. "Mum do you have to be so bolshie?" If you are not "bolshie" you get nowhere in this world. We have to speak up or forever hold our peace! Its too late after the fact.

Carolyn

"As I have got older I have become "bolshie" a word we use for being very assertive."
Now we're talking! Aside from just giving opinions on various subjects, is anyone else here ASSERTIVE?

Robby

I think that describes me well. When 9/11 happened the first thing i did was write a letter to the editor..asking everyone to be a FAIR AMERICAN..I dont know about other places but we had some instances with mosques and businesses owned by Arabs that were harassed and some threats after 9/11 I reminded everyone that we are all something/ American unless our ancestors were here when the first English arrived...and we should be fair ...period.

And in a earlier post I spoke about fighting for classes for children with learning disabilities ...for my son of course because that was how I found out children had these problems and needed extra help, they were not "slow" which some teachers suggested.

Until I lost my hearing I was a tutor in several school programs. When sewing for my daughters I would use the extra fabric and make similiar outfits for their friends who needed clothes. When I gave them to the families I hoped they would please me by allowing me to share my talents. I knew their daughters had admired my daughters clothes and I would be honored if their daughters could help me not to waste good fabric and allow me the pleasure of sewing for them too. In most cases, since I was much older than the mothers ...I became an older friend to the family.

Robby I think when we share our talent, our time , our gifts with others than we are activists...Since I didnt work outside the home I had the time to be a Girl Scout leader, a den mother, SS teacher etc ...and if I helped others in the end I helped myself to a richer life...anna

Anna:-It's obvious you do more than give opinions. You are an ACTIVIST!!
Here is a quote from the Heading above -- "For Terkel, hope is born of activism, commitment, and the steely determinism to resist."

Robby

As far as the US is concerned, I have done about all I can do as I just mailed off my request for an absentee ballot. Here in Cayman I am now serving on the Council of the National Trust where we seem to be fighting a losing battle against developers and politicians. Too bad. I tend not to be an activist, at least as I define the term. I am not out there leading the troops. Not my style.

For those still interested in comments on the Passion, there was an excellent review IMO of the film by David Denby a few weeks ago in the New Yorker.

Well, here I go again, into a discussion that I'm not going to participate in (LOL).

I consider myself a practicing Christian, although my personal choice in promoting my own Christian values is to express my great love of God through my actions rather than through judgement of others.

Am I the only person on earth who prays for my enemies? Don't others (who believe in God) turn to God in prayer, begging for a lessening of hate and the softening of hearts in terrorists or for healed spirits and subsequently changed actions in criminals?

With that said, I can report my own trepidation concerning whether to go see the movie with my church family, or not. My hesitance had nothing to do with any controversy or sematic/anti-sematic issues. All the major sematic/anti-sematic organizations concur that the movie is not a bashing of Jews, and their word is good enough for me. And I already know that the feared more "personal interpretations" of the movie are beyond my control. Besides, and franlkly), we have laws that deal w/censorship issues that clearly define artistic freedom (especially in movies) as a right.

So, my own fear was more personally oriented -- the chance of Post Traumatic Stress triggering, resulting from the violence that I clearly knew would be there before I CHOSE to go see the movie.

What I ended up seeing (otherwise known as my own interpretation) was nothing different story-wise than what I've already heard and seen dozens of times in the past, through reading the Bible, dicussions in college Literature classes, the viewing of "passion plays," and even in the 1970's version and a more recently updated production of "Jesus Christ Superstar" (that I went to see just last year).

Yes, the graphic violence in The Passion of the Christ is exteme (over the top, as most would refer to it). Interestingly, though, other than really not wishing to look at it (but I'm sure I wouldn't want to look at an actual torture and crucifixion either), the blood and gore affected me much more minimally than a couple of other elements of the movie.

I came away deeply affected by was the haunting image of the love in Christs' mother, who did not attack her son's persecutors, but rather resorted to her faith in God to get her through. I cried during several scenes related to her, although I did not cry at all during any of the bludgeoning scenes.

Mostly, though, what I got from the movie was the message, "forgive them, for they know not what they do." To me, the movie served as an uncomfortable but extremely profound reminder concerning human nature and the spiritual principle of unconditional love and forgiveness.

We live in a world that idolizes heroes of many forms. Whether one believes in Christ or not, what harm really comes from promoting the greatest story of brotherly love that could ever be told? Why can't this Jesus "character" be a hero along with the Oprahs the Magic Johnsons, even the purely fictional Harry Potters and who are so paramount in our current American Pop Culture?

Nancy I wholeheartedly agree with you. My daughter the no nonsense accountant came away with her faith affirmed and in no way did she consider the film anti semitic. I could not go to see the film as I emotionally would not be able to take it. Everyone has that choice - if you don't think you want to see the movie - keep away. No one has a gun at your head forcing you to go. The whole Christian faith is a message of forgiveness including the scene at the cross. What can be wrong with that.

There are mixed messages in the Passion. No question about that. Forgiveness is a significant part of the story and the mother of Jesus is an exemplar of forgiveness as is Christ himself. Those are benefits society can take away from the Passion and from the movie.

What is of concern is the question of WHO is to be forgiven. Is it the Romans or the Saddusee leadership of the Temple or the rabble of the crowd? WHO? This is the essence of the problem in the Passion. It is so obviously a part of the story that Jews today and yesterday ask Christianity to declare Jews blameless.

The good gentle folk of Christianity are so used to seeing this damaging message they overlook it. It's just part of the story. They (the good gentle folk)represent one part of the problem. The other part of the problem lies in the way the ignorant among us respond to the message. They have the quality of the Roman with the whip and the vinegar not the centurian with the spear. There in lies the rub. What's to be done about it? Where are the activists?

Welcome to our discussion group, Nancy. Do you consider yourself an Activist as described by Studs Terkel in the Heading above?

Robby

I have 2 grandchildren living in SiliconValley. My daughter arranges " playdates" for them and when friends come to play they claim they are bored and want to play Gameboy and Nintendo instead of playing outside in the tree or engage in any pretend activities which my grandchildren love to do-- due to being read to every day and presented with enrichment materials---and they are restricted to special times for TV and digital games. But---- there is little encouragement for the neighborhood kids or friends to play outside after school and on week-ends to engage in spontaneous play. Their lifestyle is one of engaging in solitary play (TV-Games) or competitive play ( team sports). And, not engaged in pretending, inventing, compromising, expressing opinions-ideas and sharing that occurs spontaneously when playing in the tree house or constructing a fort with cardboard boxes or whatever kids might think up.

ROBBY, Nancy Birkla (Post #889) is one of the authors of Couldn't Keep It to Myself, a stunning book by present inmates and former inmates of the York Correctional Institution in Connecticut, edited by Wally Lamb, who taught a writing class at this prison and encouraged these women to write. At this moment, Nancy is working hard to help these authors receive the approximately $6000.00 each they are supposed to receive as writers of this book.

Through a rarely used statute the state of Connecticut wants each of them to pay the full cost of their incarceration with this money and other money none of them has. One woman's costs amount to over $900,000.00. Apparently Connecticut doesn't think their imprisonment is payment and punishment enough.

Because Wally Lamb, Nancy and some of the other authors came into SeniorNet to discuss Couldn't Keep It to Myself a discussion called Prison Education Initiative has opened up in the Books and Literature folder, and some of us are actively trying to help. Nancy is very involved in the rehabilitation and education of prisoners along with working at a fulltime job at a college in Kentucky. Perhaps she'll come in and tell us exactly what she's actively involved with now.

Having had an addiction problem myself at one time, I am most interested in this, since addiction to alcohol and other drugs played a big part in most of the crimes committed which got these women to prison. Many of them have been straight and clean for quite a long time now, having worked hard to turn their lives around and become educated under prison conditions. Some of these authors have been released and are out working at jobs, which are not easy to get if one has been incarcerated.

Nancy is probably the most active activist who has come into this discussion, and I admire everything she has done to turn her life around and is doing today to help other people. We can help her in her efforts. You'll see how if you click the link above.

Mal

Daily, I ask all the questions presented in the heading of this discussion, and I also spend (seemingly, anyhow) unending hours researching and supporting with firm documentation everything I say and do.

Much like my statement concerning the movie, I try hard not only to discuss what I believe in, but to live it as well.

And to Justin, no, the movie does not answer the question concerning who Christ is forgiving, which honestly to me seems to be the point of the whole thing. It doesn't matter who did what, only that the One who was persecuted did not hate anyone, not the Romans, not the Jews, not the Government, not his friends who betrayed him -- he didn't assign blame or hate anyone, and He forgave 'em all.

I grew up in a "Christian" home, fully believing that I was being sexually abused because I was bad little girl and God was punishing me.

Well now, as a fifty-one year old woman who has spent my entire life straightening out the mess that particular misconception caused, I'm quite happy to see the record set straight , even if through a blockbuster movie -- whatever it takes!

Nancy, I love what you say.

After hearing about the Passion movie, I have changed my mind about not going to see it because of the violence but now I know what to expect.

Nancy, I clicked onto the link that Mal gave us and read your comments in Prison Education Initiative. Obviously, you are an Activist. To quote you:-"I try hard not only to discuss what I believe in, but to live it as well."
That is what I see as Studs' definition of an Activist. A number of years ago I made regular visits to a fellow who had the disease of Alcoholism and found himself in prison in Baltimore after killing a woman while he was drunk by riding over her. I testified in court on his behalf and because of this plus other extenuating circumstances, he did not receive a life sentence.
While visiting him I pointed out that he had been presented with a gift that many of us "outside" did not have -- TIME. Following our discussion he got his GED and at the time of his release had obtained a few credits toward his Associate Degree.

Robby

Nancy:-In his Introduction, Studs says "Hope appears to be an American attribute that has vanished for many, no matter what their class or condition in life. Passivity appears to be the order of the day."
Do you find that to be so? Is Hope hard to find in a prison? And where does Activism take place in a prison? Would an uprising be considered Activism? Is there such a thing there as "passive activism?"

Robby

I think what Nancy is doing is activism without violence. Her fight to get decent educational programs in prisons amongst other things is peaceful activism. We have to keep plugging away at our politicians.

One bit of activism we had and won was a fight against an unscrupulous developer who wanted to put a main entrance to a huge retirement village in our narrow street. He stood on my steps and smugly told me if I did not sign the consent he would win any way. The residents won - he lost. It was a wonderfully sweet moment. He had the alternative to put the entrance in another street which is much wider and more suited to the purpose.

We have also banded together and had drug pedlars arrested and stomped on the neighbours from hell. Not one person has been able to live in our street and create havoc. We are older people mostly headed by a youngish Academic who looks after all of us. We all pitch in when there is trouble and nine times out of ten the troublemaker reforms or they move out. You don't have to put up with all night parties every weekend. Just band together and say "We won't tolerate it" We phone the noise control every time we have had problems. We are not spoil sports and if people are celebrating special birthdays or having Christmas Parties or New Year parties that is a different matter.

Carolyn

Nancy; Welcome to our discussion on HOPE. I hope you stay a long time and share many of your experiences with us.

Why is it important that we discuss the issue of blame in the Passion (movie or Matthew)? It is because blame is assigned by the ignorant in our midst. It is because the assignment of blame has resulted in pogroms and more recently the Holocaust. No one is challenging the usefulness of the message of forgiveness. Forgiveness is clearly a significant part of the Passion. But that is not at issue.

Unless Christians can recognize the existance of a problem for Jews in the Passion there is no HOPE of ending bigotry. It will go on and on and all the goodness that Christianity might achieve in the world will be for naught. It is recognition of a problem and active participation in its solution that is called for here.

Jason,

You say forgiveness is "not at issue." Respectfully, I disagree. It is seriously at issue for those of us who believe unconditional love and forgiveness is what the story is all about.

I find it hard to understand the anti semitism that seems to be experienced in other countries. It does not exist here except amongst some very old people. Its probably because of a very good interfaith movement we have here.

Kiwi: You are right. I don't understand it either. But it exists and we should try to stamp it out.

Nancy: Why do you persist in misunderstanding? Forgiveness is unchallenged. It may well be the central benefit of the Passion. But it has nothing to do with the problem of blame. What must I say, to get you to look at the problem?

NANCY: you look at the passion and see the message of forgiveness. You are right: that is the central message in Christianity. But it is a fact that many others have taken a very different message from passion plays. I can't speak to the movie -- I haven't seen it, but I do know that the passion plays in Europe have inspired anti-semitism, and acts of violence against Jews. This is a problem that we need to be sensative to. Some people react to the violence of the passion by wanting revenge. And history shows this is not just a few odd people.

A special discussion has opened in SeniorNet where people discuss the movie, "The Passion of the Christ". You can find that discussion HERE. Something happened there yesterday which makes me believe the gap between some Christians and non-Christians is widening.

Mal

On Page 75 of Studs's book, seventy-one year old Staughton Lynd says, "Now, in retirement, I'm very much involved in prison reform." He goes on to talk about some of the things he's doing.

It just shows you that you're never too old to be active, doesn't it?

I wonder if Lynd would be interested in SeniorNet's Prison Education Initiative?

Mal

Mal: A link to Charles Krauthammer's article on the Passion in today's Washington Post would help greatly. I must learn to do that. Thank you.

JUSTIN, to create a link here in SeniorNet:

1. Highlight the URL address beginning http:// at the top of the article's page by clicking on it with your cursor.

2. Go to EDIT at the top of the page and click COPY.

3. Close that page out and go into the SeniorNet discussion where you want to post the link.

4. Click the center of the message blank.

5. Go to EDIT at the top of the page and click PASTE.

6.The URL you have copied will appear on the message blank, and SeniorNet's program makes it a link.

Charles Krauthammer article

As I indicated in my original posting, a topic might continue on and on until it seems to be wearing out before someone comes in with another topic. However, I am absolutely amazed at the length of time the subject of "Passion of Christ" continues here, especially when there is a forum which has been set up specifically for that.
There are so many items of importance in this world that could benefit from Activism. From what I am seeing here, there is NO Activism regarding this movie -- only decisions to see or not see the movie. Therefore, considering the fact that this discussion group is about Activism, I am confused as to why it is being discussed.

Robby

So am I confused about why this movie is being discussed here when I don't see a darned thing any of us can do about it except go see it or stay away.

Mal

Mal: Marcie Swartz yanked few of the more pointed remarks from the Passion discussion before I reached it.

In some cities crime has gone down. This is due to the fact that the police are shooting electricity into people with TASER GUNS rather than with lethal bullets.
Is this OK with you? If not, are you prepared to take some sort of Activist action against the police?

Robby

Ths first thing that came to my mind when I read about the Taser's was what if they hit someone with a pacemaker or an automatic defibrillator??? Scary! Of course, probably no one with one of those devices would be around a riot--right?? Hmmmm! Well, I am getting old enough to think about those medical devices and that's what came to me.

But, after reading the article, I am wondering just what we should be doing to help a policeman protect himself. Even a policeman has that right. What would we have the police do? Not protect themselves from someone who is threatening to kill them??? And, the Taser gun sounds like the less harmful way. I am never sure whether to believe the ACLU claims until I can check into them.

Ann:-Would you complain to the police?

Robby

I read the whole article and like most things in life ..regardless of how safe we try to make them there is always someone to abuse them...if we could destroy all guns ..period it would not stop murder..when Cain slew Abel it wasnt a gun he used...the taser SOUNDs like it could be a good weapon to be used ..but lets face it IT HAS TO BE USED PROPERLY BY POLICE AND ONLY IN SITUATIONS WHERE OTHER METHODS WOULD FAIL!!!!! IT shouldnt be used indiscriminately or because it is easy to use..and yes if our police used it improperly I would PROTEST but I would also protest if they did anything improperly...a young man whom I have known since childhood is a policeman here..when we see him at gatherings of parents and families he always wears a bullet proof vest..and if we rely on policemen to protect us then we should give them the best equipment so they can survive...still there is no equipment that cant be abused.

Last summer my oldest son and his family ,wife, 3 children from 9-2 stopped at a Pizza Hut on a busy street in a nice neighborhood ( I say that because it was totally unexpected ) to have lunch at 2:30PM on a Saturday afternoon, they werent even settled until a masked gunman came in...he grabbed my sons silver necklace and was threatening the family because he thought my son was a policeman in civilian clothes..He is 6'3" weighs about 300 and looks like he could be a policeman..the gun man pointed the gun right at my son's chest and shot...we dont know what happened ..since it missed my son and just missed my daughter in law going close enough to her hair she felt the bullet pass through..the gunman was scared enough to leave after that ..my son was a target because he looked like a policeman might look ..so I feel we have to give real policemen the best protection we can ......they dont deserve less......by the way it still makes me shake to see how close we came to a real tragedy...they never caught the gunman ..and it was very emotional for everyone..my son who is really a teddy bear but a man who takes family responsibilites seriously suffered from a depression since he thought he had failed to see his family was secure ..his first instinct was to move toward the gunman..and I had to convince him he did the right thing. There are two sides to every thing..and sometimes our only choice is between the lesser of two evils..anna

Use of the Taser by police is, in my judgement, an acceptable method for controlling unruly persons. It is clearly preferable to a pistol and perhaps even preferable to a nightstick.

We pay a policeman to protect us and should not expect him to do that job at the expense of his life. We arm the police to provide them with sufficient counter force to control in dangerous situations. If control can be achieved with less lasting effect than killing the culprit, I am for it 100 %.

If a suspect is unruly and wearing a pacemaker, he or she is vulnerable, and should take the precaution of not being unruly in arrest mode.

Justin:-Everything you say about the Taser makes sense to me.

Robby

More on our men and women in Iraq:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18030

"Stop Hiding the Toll of War"

Please do what you can to spread the news.

Linda

An excellent link, Linda. I was aware that Bush was preventing the press from going to Dover Air Force Base to see the bodies being brought in. I can understand this from his point of view but do not understand the quiet willingness of the media to accept this.
And I had not known that the Disabled American Veterans organization was now prevented from doing what they have been doing for sixty years or more. My father, a disabled vet from WWI, was a member of the DAV, a most reputable organization.
It would seem that complaining to the press would be useless. What type of Activism would work?

Robby

I tried to click on the link re the war and it came up that the site was not there. Is it me or has the site disappeared.

Carolyn

Carolyn: It's a bad link; perhaps Hairy (Linda) can find that and post it again.

jane

It's not just a bad link. The alternet.org site is down as well. It worked this morning because Robby read it and so did I but it's gone now.

Alternet is down temporarily because of "server migration". If you go to their Home Page (www.alternet.com) there's a notice that you can type in your e-mail address to receive notificaton when they're back on line.

Here it is 3:13 PM and it has taken two full hours to fix things so I could use my computer..I dont know if it was all the computer or some servers were having problems.. In this am;s paper there was an obituary about a lady who was active all her life helping establish various organizations for children, women , homeless etd ..she did it all. She died at 97 and was asked a couple of years ago how to be an activist...She gave 3 rules,. 1..find a cause, 2..write a letter and 3...donate money..from the article which was not just a notice by her family but one written by a writer at the paper, I can tell you her list of accomplishments took several long paragraphs to tell. Just thought I would throw that in...anna

I just this morning read an obituary for a WW11 vet who joined an organization called DumP Bush. Shortly thereafter he was audited by the IRS. Do you suppose there is a connection?

Here's an article siting the hiding of the war toll in a different publication, "Common Dreams". So far, its available. Hiding the toll of war

Was anyone aware of this march? Remembrance March

The hiding the toll of war came thru loud and clear but the March and Mourn I could Not find, Help Please.

Nor could I find "Remembrance March"

http://www.peacepledge.org/resist/update3142004.shtm

This morning I donated money to the "Yellow Ribbon" appeal its a fund set up to help combat youth sucide. A big problem here. Mostly young males. I have my yellow ribbon on my jacket. I was disappointed that so many well dressed women just walked past the collecters who were outside the local supermarket. I think its an extremely vital cause. The children are our future after all.

Last month the Bush administration in court papers stated that Federal law "does not recognize a physician-patient privilege." In another case, the administration said that patients "no longer possess a reasonable expectation that their histories will remain completely confidential."
One federal judge, Phyllis J. Hamilton, said forcing the providers to turn over the records would undermine the privacy rights of patients and could dissuade some from seeking treatment.
In Studs' next chapter Ken Paff said that to him "the civil rights movement became like a religion to me." I feel so strongly about my civil rights and those of others that I don't see becoming "like a religion" too extreme a phrase. At varying times during my practice, I have received subpoenas from attorneys asking me to send them information about my patients. I have ignored the subpoenas. It has never gone beyond that but if it ever comes to my having to sit in court and divulge private information of one of my patients, I can see myself being willing to go to jail before I do so.

Robby

Agreed, Robby!! But how do we fight this government edict?? Most of us do not have money to hire hi-priced lawyers nor the time to await a court date which might be 20 years down the line. What really makes the government want to use a patients records??? Could it be that the government might want to have help in finding someone who has broken the law?? or would they wanting permission to use a "doctor" on the stand against a accused??? Still, I agree that our rights are being slowly eroded with these governmental laws.

Here's another interesting site of an American correspondent and author of a few books about our country. This is not an advertisement on my part. I saw this man interviewed on book TV last night and became interested in maybe reading his newest book.

William Greider,ThirdWoldTraveler

Here's quote from that site:

"No matter how paranoid or conspiracy-minded you are, what the government is actually doing is worse than you imagine." William Blum

I don't know who Wm Blum is, do you?

"There is no doubt that if we lived in a police state, it would be easier to catch terrorists. If we lived in a country where the police were allowed to search your home at any time for any reason; if we lived in a country where the government is entitled to open your mail, eavesdrop on your phone conversations, or intercept your e-mail communications; if we lived in a country where people could be held indefinitely based ... on mere suspicion that they are up to no good, the government would probably discover and arrest more terrorists, or would-be terrorists.... But that wouldn't be a country in which we would want to live." Senator Russ Feingold

"What keeps most Americans from being shocked by the shredding of the Bill of Rights is that they have yet to feel the consequences, either personally or through someone close to them. It would appear, however, that they only have to wait." William Blum

http://www.zmag.org/ForeignPol/aboutblum.htm

I may have posted this earlier but it's worth retelling. I was reading the local obits the other day and came upon a WWll vet who had joined a Dump Bush organization and shortly thereafter he was audited by the IRS. The event was so note worthy to that family they included it in the man's obituary. If there is in fact a connection between these two events, we are living in a police state already. Nixon's shenanagins were bad but this is more pervasive and clearly smacks of criminality.

Justin:--I just read your post. Have you heard from the IRS yet?

Robby

March for Women's Lives. Sunday, April 25, 2004, Wshington, DC

Another reason for concern is the probability of voting by computer this fall, and the danger of tampering with or controlling the results. It could be worse than the debacle in Florida four years ago.

Yes, Traude S, and no recount is possible. The Florida Secretary of State tonight said, in effect, "so what".

It's about time the gals have begun to fight publicly. Naral, Now, and Planned Parenthood have been too quiet for the kind of treatment Congress and Bush have handed out to them lately. We need some big time demos not only for the gals but also for the dead of Iraq. Bush manages to kill our grand children with his lies and then he hides the bodies. I am a member of VFW and the American Legion. These orgs are big enough to get something done about the caskets. Robby you and Studs have fired me up.

Mal's link said it in the first sentence. "We are at a crossroads."
Isn't it "fun" just to sit by the roadside and watch our liberties taken away from us? Those Senior Netters who participate in The Story of Civilization know how easily this can be done.
And isn't it a shame that most of us in Senior Net are too old to actually DO anything about it?

Robby

Speak for yourself, ROBBY, and don't include me. Even stuck in the house as much as I am, I'll be doing something.

Mal

Robby

Did you know that a number of scientists were planning to attend a symposium in Cuba on coma and death and have now been told by the Bush administration that if they go, they can be charged with having committed a crime? Not only that, according to Dr. Alan I. Leshner, chief executive of the Americn Association for the Advancement of Science, but the government has banned the editing of papers submitted by people in countries facing sanctions. Going even past that, the Bush administration is restricting study by foreign students in the United States.
If this removal of civil rights doesn't bother you, don't click HERE to read this article in this morning's NY Times.

Robby

Robby and our freedom can disappear in a flash as you say. All you need is a Dictator and fear is their ally and you can't predict when he will take over and change laws. If we dare to resist, we are put in jail for it. Hitler was elected to power and his rhetoric was so good that people were lulled into believing him. Even if they didn't, they were powerless to stop him.

This President does not have that rhetoric that makes a good Dictator and next November he will be sorry he didn't study Greek and Latin.

Eloïse

Just like that our freedom, liberty and justice can disappear.

No ones life, liberty and property are safe when the legislature is in session are the president is at work.

While Congress was in recess, Bush appointed two of his religious right cronies to federal judgeships, bypassing Senate approval.

Once the courts are packed, justice goes out the window.

The travel bans amaze me quite frankly. Even at the height of the cold war we could travel anywhere we wanted. The only time the Govt ADVISES us not to travel somewhere is for personal safety. We are never banned from travelling. What are the powers that be in the USA afraid of?

Not being reelected. That's what the powers are afraid of in the US. But in spite of that fear, never a day goes by that they don't deprive someone of some freedom. What I don't understand is that the polls indicate roughly, a fifty-fifty split for and against. It's madness. It's masochism. It's lack of interest. It's stupidity.

In the next chapter about Ken Paff, he says:-"To give people hope, you gotta show some wins. They might be small, but you gotta show you got 'em."
Maybe, regarding Justin's remark, half the nation has given up. We just keep losing our rights and we don't seem to be gaining anything.

Robby

Speaking of freedom of choice, how about the medical insurance which gives you a list of doctors from which you must choose one for your primary care and then you must only go to that doctor or his coherts in other fields for care. Many times the list is short and your doctor of choice is not there but you are stuck. If you don't use that list, your supplemental won't pay a cent. Also, you must only go to the specialists that your doctor recommends with your little note from him verifying his permission for your care in your little hot hand. Hey, many seniors and others are stuck with this kind "choice??" . We just march to their drum, don't we?? Like good little sheep!

Ann: That's why we chose a supplemental insurance to my husband's Medicare that is not tied to an HMO and a "list." He can go to any doctor and is not restricted by insurance.

He used to be tied to my insurance, which is an HMO, since I'm not old enough for Medicare. We intentionally chose not to get their Medicare supplement for him when he took out the insurance separate from mine. We like the choice option. It costs more, but we're not restricted to a "list."

As a friend says often, "Life is full of choices." What supplement you chose to buy is your choice.

jane

Jane maybe some people don't have the choice to spend a little more. This is what annoys me about todays world - many people because of their personal circumstances have no choices.

Like Jane's, my supplemental insurance is not an HMO, and I can see whomever I choose without limitation. Although the premiums have risen steadily, indeed alarmingly in the last few years, I cannot afford to be without it.

Ken Paff continues:-"We have a depressing atmosphere in this country -- individual greed, of corporate logos, of Fox TV. You see the college students wearing a fifty-dollar shirt with a logo. They drive SUV's. I wonder what kind of hope we're breeding.
"But I'm always looking for the hopeful signs. The small victories keep me going."
I'm not hearing much hope -- or Activism for that matter -- in this discussion group. A little bit, but not much. But then as Ken Paff says, the small victories keeps one going.

Robby

Do you suppose some of us silent Activists helped this happen?

Justice Dept. backs off its demand for abortion records

Actually, from here I constantly bombard our politicians re our internal policies. I did try to email the White House but my post was not accepted just prior to the Iraqi war. I am doing my own bit of activism in the only way I am able to at present. I am also banned from a right wing radio talk back program because I dared challenge propaganda put out by the host but I won a victory prior to our last election because I telephoned the radio station and complained the host was blatently electioneering and only having right wing politicians as guests. The policy changed. I think I do my little bit of armchair activism.

Carolyn

Good for you, kiwi! My own activism is limited to using my computer and oh, that limit is not limited. There are many sites right here on the net where one can use there email to object or to praise what is going on in the world. That's quite a power, don't you think??

Did anyone here notice the links on the articles that I listed where one could contact the political campaigns?? Might be worth looking at those for many of us can't get out to march anymore. We do have a power here!

About those medical suplementaries, we were on a program called a POS which was high priced but covered almost all the doctors and hospitals here in Columbus and we had doctors who were more than willing to refer us where we preferred to go BUUUUUTin October my husband's former company decided not to go with Aetna's offer for the POS policy because the cost was too high. Get this, we pay 75% of the monthly premium but couldn't have what we had had for five years. They would only offer us(retirees) the smallest policy coverage that was available and which only last through $10,000 limit. I did object many times when talking to the company operators about our cut back coverage. Finally when I reminded them that we paid most of the monthly premium (due to my husband having to quit early but not able to go on disability with that company because he hadn't worked long enough for them.) We were asked to go from complete coverage at over $300 a month to the tiniest coverage at $28 a month. Believe it or not, I complained four times and finally was heard and the company kindly offered to give us a better coverage at 80-20 percent of coverage which returns us to the higher premium. Now, we have a year to find something better or maybe Aetna will bid lower next time???? hahaha! Want to read an article about what the big companies are doing to their health coverage??

Companies Limit Health Coverage

Speaking of health, any reaction to this article about BATTERED WOMEN?

Robby

Robby I have tremendous sympathy for battered women. However when we make a new rule for asylum there always seem to be so many who abuse the system. When we take refugees on these sort of reasons also it does not get rid of the problem in the home country. I don't know if we should take social as well as political reasons as a qualification for asylum. Where do we stop.

Carolyn

Ann: You need to come over to Health Care Costs: Insurance and Prescription Drugs where many of us have been battling these same items for years.

America Unfree: A look at politics from behind prison walls

After the train bombing in Spain, I'm beginning to think the whole world is at war. It could happen here. We must be vigilant without being repressive. What kind of Activism do we need to accomplish this?

Mal

Mal: Thats a very good article and also a good web site to keep referring back to. thanks for posting it.

Yes Mal that is a very good site you posted.

Carolyn

I keep wondering why when I read about Sports, more and more I find myself reading about crime. Take THIS for instance.

Robby

And THIS as well.

Robby

And then there is THIS of course.

Robby

Frankly Robbie I believe a lot of professional sportspeople take steroids and this can make them very aggressive. I don't watch any high level international sport any more as I just keep wondering if the winners are doped! The money that comes with high profile sport has bred the doping practice.

The governing Council for my nearest city (Santa Cruz, CA), last night, voted to participate in a day of mourning for the American war dead. The County governing board will share the platform. Processions including draped caskets will move through Town. Speeches will eulogize our local dead as well as all military people who have been killed in the Iraq War. It is, to my knowledge, the first of it's kind public day of mourning for our war dead. Several veteran's organizations will participate. The High school brass section will support the ceremonies.

That's just terrific!! And, it looks like the whole community is included in this day of mourning. We need more of this type of remembrance of our young people's sacrifice for the USA.

Jane, I did go into the Rx/Med site today. Thanks for the link. I didn't know that it existed.

Mal, thanks for the links that you sent.

Robby, those links are a sad commentary on our times. These comments plus the high salaries should have turned most of us away from the tube but we keep watching. Is there a need there,on our part, to want our sports heroes to be the best?? I guess we all are that way but maybe we should be more aware of crooked ways of our heroes.

Just saw this movie showing the dedication and hope to the cause of the right to vote for women shown by these ladies in 1918.

These women went to jail and staged a hunger strike for their civil rights and put the "suffer" in suffragettes.

Hope dies last!

George W. was asked what he thought about Roe v. Wade. He said it was just about the most important decision George Washington had to make before crossing the Delaware.

I'm busy being an activist by posing this on every state listed in "People talking about where they live" site.

So far, have posted to 10 states with only one reaction and that was favorable(Texas.)

My country was the first to give votes to women way back in the 1800 and somethings. We have women in all the high posts in the land at present.

Carolyn

Kiwi: In many respects New Zealand is well ahead of the US. I am very pleased to hear of the freedom accorded NZ women. How are you doing with same sex marriages?

Most people do not agree with same sex marriage as such but legislation has been put in place to allow same sex partners to have the same legal rights as heterosexual relationships. For instance in the case of receiving the partners estate if they die and being able to be the next of kin in the case of serious illness. I think NZers in the main prefer the legal rights position rather than a registered marriage.

Carolyn

Today I'd like to enlist the help of my friends at S/N in an area that is a little different than my primary forum of advocacy (prison education and rehabilitation). This particular injustice is affecting us in our own home, and although something has been going on for a very long time, things have finally peaked over the past week.

My husband John is an Army veteran, having served our country back in the 70's. He was honorably discharged due to a medical crisis that was without a doubt partially military-related in origin. At the time he had been diagnosed with his first of a total of 3 bouts of Hodgkins Lymphoma, complicated by active TB, as well as another mysterious ailment which was tagged Hepititis B, "non-typical." This means that there was no specific diagnosis for his type of Hepititis yet, but it was recognized as a form of HEP, and many of John's fellow soldier buddies were dropping like flies to this particular ailment too.

Fast forward to about the late 90's, when John was finally and officially diagnosed with Hepititis C (which remains "tracked back" to his military days, with no contest).

For a few years afterwards, he was under the treatment (through VA) of a wonderful and amazing Dr. who specializes in HEP C. But the progression of my husband's illness (through ongoing blood screen monitorings and 1 liver biopsy performed back in 1997) was considered too slow for him to continue in Dr. Cecil's program. In 2001, my husband was officially deemed not yet sick enough to qualify for treatments of interferon that had proven successful in fully arresting the disease in a significant number of patients, and he was booted out from under Dr. Cecil's care.

At that time (and many times since), my husband requested subsequent liver biopsies, which would be the only true measure of liver damage and progression of the disease. He especially wanted a biopsy done prior to his official removal from the program, but the request was denied. For the past several years, according to VA, all of John's liver-related screenings/levels looked "good," and he has remained disqualified from receiving any form of treatment.

Well, back in November and December of this past year, John got very ill -- so ill that he missed more days than he was able to go in to work over a two month period. Once again his blood was screened; once again he was told no treatment yet, and once again he requested a liver biopsy in order to confirm (for sure) that the disease had not progressed into a dangerous stage.

Yet again his request was denied, but this time he and I were both sure that something was very wrong, so he sought help elsewhere and under our regular health insurance went through the ropes of getting a biopsy finally ordered, which he went in for on Monday, March 1st.

This past Wednesday afternoon, John received the stunning (shocking actually) results that he is currently into full-blown Chirrosis of the liver, medium to moderate range (which is pretty bad), despite all the good test results he's had through VA.

When John contacted VA about being assigned back into Dr. Cecil's program, he was told he could not be. The VA is allowing (only because legally they have to) Dr. Cecil to finish his tenure with ongoing patients, but no new or former patients will be assigned to him in the future, EVEN THOUGH BY LAW THE VA RECEIVES SUPPLEMENTAL FUNDING SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED TO BE USED FOR VETERANS WITH HEP C TO BE TREATED THROUGH DR. CECIL'S PROGRAM.

Fortunately for us, through Dr. Cecil's sense of kindness and because John is a former patient who is being denied his rights through VA, within a few hours of initial contact, he took John on as an emergency case, assigning him an appt. date of March 25th (Dr. Cecil says he will never close his practice to new patients, but currently he's booked up solid for over four months). And unfortunately, although he still works for free at the VA, his private practice patients have to have medical insurance, as neither Medicare or Medicaid will pay for exhorbitant lab, drug, and other expenses that need to be included outside of the regular office visits.

Our insurance will cover most of it, just like it would with cancer or any other catastrophic illness. Still, we will have to pay between $15,000-$18,000 out-of-pocket over the next year, after we reach our annual "ceiling" for prescription drug coverage, which we never knew exhisted due to John getting most of his prescriptions through VA (but gratefully the treatment medication will be covered some, because it is not covered at all by many other insurance companies).

Here is the clincher, though -- although my husband's diagnosis of Hep C has qualified the VA to collect $40,000.00 for the treatment of his disease, the VA refuses to allow their pharmacy to dispense the treatment drug if prescribed by Dr. Cecil through his private practice, even though my husband qualifies for prescription drug coverage through VA.

The bottom line here is that not only will we have to pay a fairly significant out-of-pocket bill for something my husband should have received through VA a long time ago, but we mostly protest the blatant injustice being exhibited toward all the Veterans who cannot afford to treat this disease any other way than through VA.

My husband is in a very serious situation, but the fact that we can afford to have insurance and to pay these bills may save his life -- many others will simply die.

For the record, because the seriousness of John's condition (that was diagnosed elsewhere), he does now qualify for treatment through VA, but frankly we refuse to entrust his life to them at this point.

Here are several links for those who might be interested in exploring more details concerning this issue:

http://hcvets.com/vabs/dr_cecil1.htm

The following is Dr. Cecil's home page and includes information concerning injustices concerning treating Veterans, not only through VA facilities, but also incarcerated Vets:

http://www.hepatitisdoctor.com/

And this final one is a petition that I humbly ask you to consider supporting (although if you have already read all the way through the first link, this petition will have been included):

http://hcvets.com/vabs/cecilpetition.asp

Although this Dr. is local to the Louisville KY area, he is fighting hard for Veterans nationwide!

Thank you all so much for your interest and support!

Peace, love, and best -- Nancy Birkla