I hope everyone has had a very wonderful and busy weekend and will come back and post tomorrow.

How far have you all gotten in the book?

Due to my computer acting as if it is 200 years old and in need of either a jump-start or vitamins this morning (it will load to 94% and then it just sits), I'm not going to re-read the above stories, but when I originally did one of the explorers used dogs the whole way to the South Pole and then when they ran out of food they ate the dogs.

The other explorer (was it Scott?) thought that was cruel and didn't take dogs and I think he was the one who perished a few miles from a food cache.

Intriguing stories. Are you all here and ready to jump in come Saturday? We'll take the first four chapters the first week and in that way we can all stay on the same topics.

I've finished it, Marjorie, but I need to go back and review the chapters as you and Ella have outlined them above. My book is due back Sept. 7, so I'll try to get the first 4 chapters reviewed, return the book and then maybe be able to check it back out again.

š jane›

Jane, can you renew it online? We can do that, which is very nice and convenient. Do renew it as we have so much to talk about in this book and by taking it in segments we can all ask our questions and have time for everyone to respond.

I've already renewed it once, so I'll have to return it and check it out again.

Ella, those are wonderful sites (your post#54). I plan to explore parts of them each day. Isn't it amazing that we can get all this info so quickly about a place that is still considered harsh and primitive. The other thing I find amazing is that even under the most harsh conditions and even when near death, that people kept journals. Just think what we would not know, if they hadn't kept them.

In one of the discussion I go to someone said that Biography magazine has an "article on the doctor who went to Antarctica." I assume they are referring to Dr. Jerri Nielsen. I couldn't find the web site for Biography magazine or would put the link here.

Pedln, yes it is amazing and unbelievable, at times, that while we are sitting in our homes we have this wealth of information available to us on just about every subject imaginable. Would all of this helped us while we were getting our education? I would think so - some colleges, I understand, are requiring computers or laptops. And the computer just celebrated its 20th birthday I read somewhere.

And journals? Indeed, have you ever kept one? My sister's son gave her a journal some 2 years ago and asked that she keep it up I think she has even though I kid her about it and wonder if what she is writing will have interest a generation or so from now, she's just as much a homebody as myself.

Journals and letters - what are we missing by promoting emails that will get lost? Letters from Adams and Jefferson, letters between Clemtine and Winston. Does anybody still write those kind of letters?

There was another doctor, Marjorie, that was ill at the S.Pole and came out after our JN, but can't think of his name and don't know if it was during the severe winter or not. Does anyone? And would his story be as interesting? And, if not, why not?

ELLA: If the "computer" has a 20 anniversary, it must be the Personal Computer (PC). I remember when my son was an infant (1957) that he was sitting on the console of a computer that took up a large room. My husband was working at GE in Phoenix at the time and the computer was made using vacuum tubes like they used to have in radios. I know the first computer was before 1954 because after we were married my husband worked on one of the very early ones at RCA.

Oh, Marjorie! Now you are going to force me to look up the source of my information. I think it was in TIME, or........

HELP ME, SOMEONE!

But I know you are right. It was probably the PC - that must have been exciting work for your husband.

I believe it was the IBM pc that celebrated its 20th anniversary..which was really the first personal computer.

EDIT: I did a search on iLor and found quite a few hits on 20th anniversary personal computer...here's one:

http://www.bricklin.com/ibmpc20thoughts.htm

I believe it was the IBM pc that celebrated its 20th anniversary..which was really the first personal computer.

Thanks, Jane! And now we know - I think I am allowed to quote from that site???? Anyway, here's Mr. Bricklin's views on the origin of the computer:

The precursor to the personal computer is the desk. To understand how this relates to the PC, first let's think about the role of the desk in one's life. There were many types of tables in the old days, but one type evolved on which you did your correspondence, writing, some reading, record keeping and simple transactions, calculations, simple art, etc. It was where you did "work" that involved you devoting your entire attention and took some time to do it. The desk was a "platform" (literally) that held your tools, such as pencils and paper, straight edges, etc. It may have local storage, such as drawers or openings, aids for the tools, such as inkwells and power outlets, and even simple security, such as roll tops or drawer locks. It evolved over time to meet the needs of the tools you used to do your work. Blotters for fountain and quill pens gave way to hard tops for ball-point pens. If you do any of many types of work, you have a desk. A dorm room, the most basic of places to live and work, gives each student a bed, a place to keep clothes, a chair, and a desk.

The personal computer has taken over the much of the role of the desk, with the desk being one of the places to hold a personal computer (keeping its role). The PC (in the generic sense) is where we do correspondence: First typing up and printing out letters for mailing and later faxing, now email and instant messaging. It's where we do writing, some reading, record keeping, calculating, analysis, creating, and more. It is the "platform" on which our software "tools" run, and the interface to our hardware "tools". Over time, the PC has evolved, just like the desk. Things that were optional, like CD drives and floating point processors, became standard when they became popular and expected."

Has anyone read a good biography of Bill Gates? Or would it be interesting? He's a genius in finance, but is he a genius? Did he invent anything? He's always struck me as rather dull the few times I've seen on TV.

How do the rest of you view him?

Ella, I view Bill Gates as Rich! Rich! Rich! Sue

Sue: Good answer!! ;0)

I think he's a very interesting person...maybe not loud and flashy, but a genius in the way he's built the microsoft empire with Paul Allen and a couple of other partners. The amount of money he and his wife Melinda have given away ---and to causes that seem to be of interest to them and needed in the world--is staggering.

If my choice was to spend an hour or a day with Bill Gates or Dr. Jerri Nielsen, I'd pick Bill Gates in a second.

š jane›

Hahaha, Jane. I would too and just maybe he could publicize Seniornet or start a Foundation for us to open more Learning Centers? I would imagine that such wealthy people are always deluged with requests for donations to causes, both political and social.

JANE: I had to chuckle at your choice. I don't know how I would choose. I would be definitely more interested in the computers topics I could discuss with Bill Gates. At the same time, I would have questions for Jerri Nielsen that weren't answered in the book.

Has anyone written Ms. Neilsen and invited her here? Maybe, Marjorie, you will get the chance to ask her those questions.

Hello Alf

Actually, no, we didn't. I got my book rather late to do that, and, after reading, I realized I had a couple of remarks to make that may not be complimentary.

I do not have the confidence, if such be the word, it takes to have an author in a discussion and ask questions that may embarrass or hurt, unlike many of the reporters of today.

Would you be able to do that?

Not me either, Ella. I'm not interested in getting into a "debate" with her on her actions. I assume she means what she's says in her book and that she's done the things she says she's done.

š jane›

Well said, you two. I agree. Hope to receive my book soon and in the meantime will try to add my 2 cents based on what I remember from my first reading - good grief, back in the spring, I guess!

Welcome Diane

Good to see you here as I remember how much you enjoyed the book. We start our discussion tomorrow so get your thoughts together today - I have a book on my desk here that looks like a college textbook all highlighted in pink and already showing wear and tear - haha Not quite that bad, but thanks to Charlie who mailed a copy to me. I usually get one from the library and have postit notes stuck everywhere.

May I join the group? I have seen Jerri Nielsen on t.v. in different interviews. She is a very vibrant person. I bet her book is just as interesting. Bill is bringing me one from the library this evening.

So, I would love to join the group. Everyone here seems filled with excitement. I could not resist.

Hats

We would love to have you here HATS. Welcome to our group! It is going to be fun; I think we all have somewhat different views of this author and the way she presents herself, so it should be quite a discussion.

HATS: Welcome! Delighted to have you join us. The more opinions the more I like it.

I put the link PEDLN found for the South Pole in the heading. Right now (7:10pm PDT) I was able to click on Station Tour and see the diagram of the South Pole Station. Sometimes I can't get it. I imagine it has to do with when the South Pole is "on-line."

Thanks, Marjorie, now if I have my facts correct, it is winter there and summer will not come until October? I'll keep watching that site to see more, I haven't seen much yet.

GOOD MORNING EVERYONE - A GOOD DAY TO START OUR DISCUSSION

There are many reasons to admire Dr. Jerri, but the first two chapters deal with the author's personal life and I have what may seem harsh comments to say about her; however, I must be honest.

Acting on the principle that a writer is "ruined" by praise and "saved" by criticism, (haha) I am out to save this author and I will do it immediately. In order to make my point, allow me to quote the following:

It was part of my job to tend to the emotional and psychological health of my colleagues. I spent a lot of time thinking about what type of person goes to the Ice………By now we had all heard the famous polar adage: 'The first year you come for the adventure. The second year you come for the money. The third year you come because you don't fit anywhere else.'

Didn't she personally skip a couple of years here? That last one fits her much better than the first two I believe, but maybe I'm not being nice?

To be fair she did say later that in a Navy Manual she read there are 5 types of applicants for the Pole: professional explorers, escape artists, money savers, drifters and martyrs. "Was I the escape artist or the adventurer? Maybe a bit of both, with some martyr thrown in for danger."

Hey, if this lady wants to escape from her troubles, I have no quarrel with that, but to publicize her family's problems in this manner, leaving her children with a monstrous father who was"usually cruel to our young sons, ignoring them or telling them they were stupid. Then one day I caught him slamming both boys, who were in grade school, into the living room walls, complaining that I had let them run 'out of control".

TWO QUESTIONS:

Wouldn't you have fought for custody of your children?

Would you have left your children with a man so out of control that he slammed them against a wall?

Good Morning, Ella and Marjorie and Fellow Readers!

I, too, think she skipped years one and two..and went because of #3 and so, while she chooses escape artist/adventurer/martyr...I would say yes on the escape artist...and not the other two...I'd add "drifter"...escape artist/drifter.

To your questions:

1. yes

2. no

Good Morning All,

I think she did not fight for the custody of her kids because she felt it would be useless. Their father had turned the children against her. So, if they were forced to live with her, they would have been full of resentment. She hoped, in time, they would change.

However, I would have been to worried too go to the ends of the earth. I would have stayed close thinking they might need me.

Ella and Jane, I also think she skipped the first two. This trip was taken because she needed an escape hatch. Her life was totally out of control. She wanted out.

Initially I accepted Dr. J's statement that she didn't fight for the custody of her children because "you can't force teenagers to do anything" and her lawyer recommended avoiding "a messy legal battle that would only alienate the kids."

It disturbed me enough so I kept rethinking her situation concerning her children all through the book. After a while I came to a few conclusions that I could not talk about easily if Dr. J were part of our discussion. Thanks, Ella for that bit of foresight!

I tend to believe that there's more to that story than Dr. J reveals since most courts are predisposed to give custody to the mother in disputed cases UNLESS there are reasons against that decision. Of course this is all conjecture...but WHY would her lawyer recommend against an all-out legal fight if there was any chance of winning? That "messy legal battle" may have possibly held a lot of potential for damaging personal or professional revelations. If she didn't stand to lose a heck of a lot by fighting for her kids, I think she sure gave up custody easily.

I believe the truth may be somewhere to the right or left of her account of things. Her husband was probably a controlling guy and he may have had a temper. I believe she was an oddball, a brilliant, square-peg, free-spirit kind of girl...and the course of their marriage was probably not easy.

I think the lady publicizes her family problems because this may be her only means to communicate to her children how much she loves them. Much of what she writes may be an attempt to explain her view of things to her hostile children and my heart goes out to her when she writes tenderly of earlier days.

"...I see a van full of my kids and their friends, and I hear high-pitched laughter and shouts and singing."

For whatever reason, maybe she feels her children need a reminder of these happy images to soften their alienation. I wish her well in this apologia because I feel she really cares for her kids. I don't know why her children continue to be so hostile to her since they have reached an age where they might be able to reevaluate their father's view of her. Maybe we'll never know the complete answer to that question.

She's a complex personality and I prefer to judge her on the totality of her nature rather than just on her vulnerabilities.

Harriet

I came to the same conclusion Harriet has. I think that there are many more sides to this story than what we've heard...and a lawyer would only say to avoid a "messy legal battle" if there were a number of things that the husband could have brought up in court (and therefore public) that would have caused the court to look unkindly at her request for custody.

I keep running into statements by Nielsen that are...well...I guess "exaggerations" is perhaps the nicest word I can put on them...or "distortions" of what appear to be the facts. All of those instances, which I'm sure we'll get to here in this discussion, reinforce my feeling that the ex-husband may not be the ogre she portrays him to be.

These children are teenagers...and not little babies/toddlers who might not recognize "abuse" when they suffer it. Many teenagers seem to see "abuse" where none exists [;0)] so I'm having a hard time thinking that any teenage boys or girl would stay with a parent who had slammed them into walls or was abusing them verbally, etc. It just leads me to think that, as I said above, there's a lot not being said.

Nielsen, to my reading, makes a lot of "big deals" out of what I think are ordinary things. She comments about the psychological testing she had to undergo...and likens it to that of a nuclear submariner..as if that were some tough, exacting standard. My neighbor, age 64, is a retired submarine commander and Navy Capt. He spent his entire career in subs, and I asked him today about the psychological testing. He laughed and said he was in diesel subs...and he didn't think the psych testing was tough...and hadn't known anyone who'd failed it---including a guy who ended up on his sub and shot himself in the foot...literally...and should have been weeded out if the testing was so exacting.

Enough of my ramblings for now. I'm anxious to see how others see this woman.

MAGGIE GURLEY: Welcome. Delighted you want to join this discussion. As you can see, there have been a number of very thoughtful posts already. Post your thoughts anytime.

When I read all the posts, I find myself agreeing with some of the comments and wanting to reserve judgement in the case of other comments being made. In the interest of presenting another way to view the story I will play "devil's advocate" a bit.

HARRIET: I agree with your analysis in most respects. You said "If she didn't stand to lose a heck of a lot, she sure gave up custody easily." Since I don't know the entire story, I wonder how "easy" it was. Just because she didn't go through a court battle, doesn't mean any of this was "easy" for her or her family. I am sure that this part of the book is an attempt to send a message to her children. The only other thing the chapter does toward the story of her time on the Ice, is explain why she wants to escape.

JANE: I didn't try to verify anything in the book with an outside source. Thanks for telling us about the psychological testing for submariners as your 62 year old neighbor understands it. I am sure there is a lot more to be told if we want to know the "truth" about Dr. Jerri's marriage and family.

HATS: I agree with you that she did not fight for custody "because she felt it would be useless."

Because I have lived with a man who presented himself to the world as wonderful, caring, etc. and was the opposite to me and our children, I found this part rings true:

He started to change soon after the wedding ceremony. It began with small, cutting commments and minor demands. He would laugh when I dropped things. He told me I was awkward and ugly, and "overachiever" with little natural talent. He made all the decisions in our marriage, from what we had for dinner to where we lived.

While my husband did not decide what we ate, he did buy homes without my even seeing them and gave me things to do including the words I was to use. I did not have the self-confidence I needed at that time to make my own decisions.

ELLA: You wondered how Dr. Jerri could "leave her children with a monstrous father." After the incident you mentioned, the book says that she did leave him with the children. The problem is that she was sucked back into the marriage because he changed his behavior and she was hoping it was real. Dr. Jerri presents herself as being concerned for her children's welfare. I don't see how I can dispute that. I remember responding in a similar way to "promises" when I was married. Things would always be better "when ..." and I kept falling for it.

Marjorie

Hi Marjorie and all,

At one time, I remember seeing a Psychology book about or titled 'Emotional Blackmail.' I think this is the tactic Dr. Nielsen's husband used on her and their children.

Off we go into the feezing Tundra! I can not conceive why anyone would want to intentionally go where it gets 60 ++++++++ below zero. I hate temperatures that drop under 60 degrees above . To even think of an adventure involving whiteouts, the windy southpole & undiscovered frozen territories covered with thick layers of ice is completely foreign to me. No matter how she explains the choice , I think she's nuts! To seek any change, any refuge from life I think I would have waited until my beloved father had returned home from being critically ill. I can't believe it. Not only did she desert her kids, she deserted her dad who told her to "go to Antartica, Duffy," while he was on his death bed. She says there was no point arguing and as she " walked down the echoing hospital hallway, she heard the door swing shut behind her." Please!!!! A team of wild horses could never have dragged me from my dad's side at that point. I began to see this heroine in a totally different light at that point. I think she's an egotistand self serving. Perhaps my sentiments will change as I get further on.

Andy: I, too, have some questions about that whole thing with her dad and his illness. For me, however, they again fall in the "extreme exaggeration/distortion/lies" category. I'll have to see if I can find those references again in my gazillion little slips of paper.

We should discussAlf's mention of the fact that: "Not only did she desert her kids, she deserted her dad who told her to go to Antartica while he was on his death bed." Jane has also questioned our author's decision to leave her father at a time when clearly he needed her. What would any one of have done?

Thanks so much, Marjorie for those personal insights into a marriage where the man holds all the cards and is the domineering partner. I, too, can relate to the same as three times I went with my younger sister to an attorney's office to get a divorce from an abusing husband; each time she vowed to never go back and each time, after pleas and promises from her husband, she did. It was difficult to watch over the years. No doubt every woman either knows such a marriage or certainly has heard or read of them.

Jane questioned the psychological tests that the author took before her application was approved - here we have a troubled woman, recently divorced, who has lost her children's love and is weary of her vocation in life. Would not a good psychologist have picked up on those personality traits at the time she applied to go to such an isolated place as the South Pole? And her mother - well, let me quote this paragraph:

She believed that when things were really in the dumps, you were better off not going down the same path repeatedly, trying to make small adjustments…….she felt that if my kids saw me strong and in a new life, they might have the courage to come back to me. She believed that children instinctively ally themselves with the more powerful parent."

Do you believe this? Where does love come into the picture of this troubled family? This mother loved her children - why didn't they reciprocate that love? Don't most children?

I would have done what Hats suggested - "I would have stayed close thinking they might need me." Leaving her children in the control of an abusing father, our Dr. J. runs off to a planet so far away that her children could not even call her on the phone!! That is unbelievable to me and as many as you have said, we are not being told the real story in this book.

Something is lacking and I believe that "something" is being hidden because it is not to Dr. J's advantage in selling this book to tell it? Perhaps it is the sordidness of the marriage and the damage to two doctors' reputations that would ensue if the truth be told???

And Harriet also questioned this when she stated "I tend to believe that there's more to that story than Dr. J reveals since most courts are predisposed to give custody to the mother in disputed cases UNLESS there are reasons against that decision. Of course this is all conjecture...but WHY would her lawyer recommend against an all-out legal fight if there was any chance of winning? That "messy legal battle" may have possibly held a lot of potential for damaging personal or professional revelations."

Can this be a possibility? Of course, we may never know.

But let us move on to this adventure on the ice - (here again, I'm wondering, if the good lady doctor is hoping to get a movie out of this? I'm too suspicious, I know…..) Would you go?

She can take with her only 3 suitcases (excluding the 3 duffel bags she is issued) packed with enough personal equipment to last a year - A YEAR! Can you imagine trying to pack that? I have trouble packing for a 2-3 week vacation. And I always say to myself, what I left out I can buy - a no no here.

You wear the same clothes for a year? And no deodorant?

I don't understand why contact lenses would freeze, but film for cameras don't, and neither do batteries for flashlights. However, I'm as far from a scientist as one can imagine.

But isn't it interesting some of the experiments the scientists are doing? Studying fish with a natural antifreeze in their blood? Could the future hold the promise of an injection we could all take to enable us to withstand cold temperatures? Why, Andy even you could go to Antartica and you wouldn't need to live in Florida anymore and wouldn't that state suffer from the lack of all the snowbirds coming south in the cold months!!! Put them out of business, it would.

But enough of this rambling. Yesterday I just deleted some sites I had found on the web (darn it anyway, I'm in too much of a hurry at times) and one of them had a Celtic harp that I was going to show you - the darndest thing to lug up to the South Pole!!! Why she ever took this thing is beyond me - I'll find it again - and I have a new twist to tell you about those two explorers - Scott and Amundsen's expeditions.

Back later - sorry for the long post!

I need to slide this in....'cause I'm not at all sure her dad was "dying"...she seems to see everybody as "dying" with a serious illness, which isn't always true...except that, of course, we're all dying every day if you want to look at it that way, I guess. ;0)

Other comments of hers that bothered me:

• At age 23 she was injured and tired of dating...
• she was an "aging and disabled woman" at age 23!

Somewhere in there about her dad's illness, she says it took "weeks and weeks" for the pathology report to come back on his biopsy. WEEKS and WEEKS??? She's a physician...she'd know who to call..her father's doc would have talked to her. I don't believe her.

On p. 24 she lists things...as I assume these were the order of importance...about going to the South Pole...things to consider..

• her life
• her medical skills
• her career
• her children.

Interesting order, I think.

Would/Will I go to see the movie? No, nope, no way.

š jane›

ELLA: In line what you mentioned about her family, I was concerned because Dr. Jerri grew up in

... a family that valued strength and disdained weakness ... I coped by learning to control my perceptions, and consequently, my emotions. Just as I trained my body to reflexively perform gymnastic routines, I trained my mind to deflect disturbing thoughts and images. ... I would test myself constantly, forcing myself to confront my fears, and learned not to be afraid.

After having been trained to be strong and handle whatever came her way, she had an accident that caused her to be clumsy and lose control of her body. She married within a year of the accident and her husband ridiculed her clumsiness. Something she had no control over. Suddenly someone and something else was in charge of her life. That must have been quite a shock. If she had trained herself to trust her perceptions, rather than ignore them, and not been taught that she, alone, could make a difference, I expect her behavior in her marriage would have been quite different.

JANE: Her statement about being an "aging, disabled doctor" came after her mother called her "practically a spinster" and after the accident that left her without control over her body. From our perspective 23 is hardly aging and dropping things is not disabled. But from the perspective of a young gymnast who had been trained to be in charge? I wouldn't go to the movie either. I have had enough of this story.

HATS: I think emotional blackmail is the perfect term for what happened.

Boy do I agree with you ALF. I hate cold. No way would I go to the Antarctic, even for a day or two much less a whole year. I have no idea why anyone would want to go somewhere that isolated. It is one thing to deal with rationing that just happens but to deliberately go somewhere like that with water rationed so rigidly that filth is everywhere and clothes are repaired with tape. Ugh! Not me.

Marjorie

The only picture of a Celtic harp, I could find quickly this morning - I must do something today besides sit at this computer, even if it is the most fun - is this one:

http://www.stanleyharp.on.ca/florence.html

The page doesn't designate that as a Celtic harp, but the site did, and it is very similar to what I found yesterday.

I disagree with you, Marjorie and Jane, I WOULD go to the movie - the adventure she had there (which we'll get into later), all the lovely scenes of the area, and the dramatic rescue would be fascinating to me, although I wouldn't personally go.

Hey, you guys, I married at 23 and most of my graduating high school classmates were already married with children and my sisters thought I was going to an old maid, thought I was much too particular about men.

Hi All,

When she left her father on his hospital bed, well, that bothered me a lot. With cancer? There is no way that I could have left and went that far away. Impossible. If I did go, I would have been a useless mess. My thoughts would have been at home with my dad and of course, with my children.

Maybe she is one of those people who can "compartmentalize" their feelings. I first heard that word during Clinton's administration. Remember when he went through the whole Lewinsky situation and still was able to do his work well?

Well, if I am anxious or have something or someone to worry about it shows! Everyone knows! I think Dr. Nielsen must be different.

Ella, thank you for the Celtic Harp link.

Alf, I am like you. No way would I go to that ICE COLD place. Of course, I would not have journeyed to the moon either.

Ella, I married at twenty three too. All of my friends were marrying rather quickly and having children. I really felt left out.

Hmmmm...I was 32 when I married [for the first/only time]...and I suspect I'm older than Nielsen, since she talks about being in Med School in the 1970s.

I wonder, if they do make a movie...where they'll film it. I doubt if they'll actually go to Antarctica, do you think? Wonder what they'll use...interesting question, Ella!!

š jane›

I guess I should have offered more than two cents the first go-around!

At any rate, as my mother (one of the DL's) mentioned early on I would be thrilled to be a part of an Antarctica Team - despite the unpredictable hardships and chilly temps! With ole fashion pioneer spirits and new fangled lines of cold weather gear day-to-day survival on the Pole may be more of a mind set than a physical challenge! But rest assured, mother I'm not heading out this year!

And as most of you mentioned, I find it peculiar that Dr. Nielsen alludes to part but not all of her family story. It's hard to surmise if she is escaping from or trying to make the best of a bad situation?! Giving her the benefit of the doubt, perhaps she is searching for the peace of mind to sort it all out so that she can come back home a more self assured physician, daughter and mother - one capable of the "fight" and yet cautious of the battle.

To start, she had no idea of what awaited her!

Everyone has excellent points.

Dr. Jerri DID leave her sick father and alienated children and took off into the unknown for personal and possibly self serving reasons. Sedate, conservative ole me could NEVER do it.

My personality model functions best in an environment with good plumbing, clean laundry, central heating, and a shortage of excitement. Recliners, well-stocked libraries, and large screen TV's ain't so bad either. In short, I am NOTHING like Dr. Jerri.

Maybe that's why I feel so cautious in forming an opinion about her. If everyone was like me, Columbus would never have discovered America and the moon would still be untouched real estate. I'm grateful that there are people who are eager to take on all the expeditions that are so foreign to my nature, and I figure that their thinking MUST be pretty different from mine. Without the wacky(?), risk-laden chances Dr. Jerri and her ilk have taken throughout history, maybe MY world would look less pleasant.

Incidentally, Big John, who Dr. Jerri described as her "very best friend" in Antarctica turned out to have a family that he left behind when he signed up for his stint on the ice. Jerri, who leads a volatile emotional life a lot of the time, had to write quite a few words rationalizing about how appropriate it was that he went home to THEM at a later point in the book.

That lady had no luck with men!

Harriet

Golly, Jane, you were VERY, VERY PARTICULAR!! Sounds as if you found a winner though.

Did you all see what my daughter, Cindy, had to say? She would go!!! She was one that always loved the rough weather stuff, skiing, kayaking, but, thank heavens, not this year! Thank you very much for that, dear daughter!! And thanks for coming in - stick around until we get to the medical part - we are counting on you and Andy, our resident nurses - to see us through these procedures.

Is that a first for Seniornet? A mother/daughter team discussing a book?? I know there have been two sisters together in one discussion and maybe some of you know who they were?

Oh, fun, fun, fun.

Cindy would certainly agree with what Harriet had to say about Dr. J: - " I'm grateful that there are people who are eager to take on all the expeditions that are so foreign to my nature, and I figure that their thinking MUST be pretty different from mine."

Yes, you are right! We need explorers and scientists willing to take the riske, but what some of us are wondering is whether Dr. J.'s decision to go the Pole was in the best interests of her children, her family, and herself as she is the subject of this particular book.

Perhaps we are being a bit cynical? Are we all mothers here? Are we speaking from a mother's viewpoint only in believing she was abandoning her children?

While we are waiting for the rest of our group to express their opinion of Dr. J, and before we begin our venture onto the ice, here is another viewpoint, the latest, on the two explorers that are mentioned on page 36 of the book. This from the NY TIMES and from another female that has been to Antartica:

"The Coldest March: Scott's Fatal Antarctic Expedition" By Susan Solomon

The British explorer Robert Falcon Scott reached the South Pole in 1912 to find that the Norwegian Roald Amundsen had arrived first. Scott and his four travelling companions all died on the return march. In her review of "The Coldest March," Sara Wheeler, author of "Terra Incognita," writes that Scott has developed a reputation as a "bungler," a charge that Susan Solomon "vigorously rebuts in this persuasive book."

"Drawing deeply on her own Antarctic experience and equipped with a fascinating mix of modern data and historical detail," writes Wheeler, Solomon "sets out to rehabilitate Scott and establish his rightful place in the pantheon of exploration."

In her first book, Solomon, a senior ozone researcher at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, used data from new weather stations near Scott's route to reach what Wheeler calls "important new conclusions about Scott's expedition." Solomon argues that unseasonal weather contributed to the disaster, though she also "evaluates the relative contributions of many factors." Nevertheless, Wheeler criticizes Solomon for underplaying "the importance of many of Scott's 'blunders.'"

Sounds intriguing, doesn't it? Shall we read this book, written by a scientist, together after we finish Dr. J's tale?

Thank all of you so much for your stimulating comments. It is your participation that makes the Books such a great place to spend an hour or two a day.

ELLA: Thanks for the link to the Celtic Harp. Even if the one Dr. Jerri took with her was smaller than that, it is certainly a difficult thing to carry with everything else. I don't remember that she talks about playing it anywhere. Maybe I will come across it as I reread the story.

HATS: I was 22 when I got married. I had just graduated from college and was worried that if I didn't marry I would live alone somewhere. I didn't want to go back to live with my folks and didn't know what I would do otherwise. Not a good reason to wed.

CINDY: Glad to have you join us. You sound like you are much more of an adventurer than I am.

Hi HARRIET and JANE. Good points everyone. A very interesting discussion indeed.

Marjorie

Hi Marjorie on the west coast. Say goodnight to Ella in the midwest EST. Hahaha

Hmmmmm.....see, Gals, I really have a problem with Nielsen...'cause I don't think, in all honesty, she's a real adventurer...a real explorer. I see her whining about all sorts of things that I don't think someone who'd given real consideration to what was involved in going to the ICE would have whined about. I tend to see her as self-centered and extremely impulsive...as in rushing from one crisis headlong into another because she doesn't think things through.

Ella: No, we are not all mothers here. I'm the one who didn't marry until she was 32.

Mother and daughter? How exciting! Hi Cindy! Well, Marjorie and Ella, I am certainly enjoying this book, but I think it is because of you guys. Usually, I read ficion, but I have been wanting to read more non fiction, especially biographies.

Anyway, I am looking forward to reading the rest of the book with the group.

Are we through bashing Jeri yet?

I'm not being critical, just overwhelmed by all the negative comments about the author, so early in the game. (I admit, I've only read the first 4 or 5 chapters.) Whatever happened to walking in another's moccassins?

Perhaps I only read superficially, but I accepted what she told us, although I did have concerns about what her children would think if they read her book. I've been the divorce route (from a decent person) and had custody of my children. But those of you who have been there, know that no matter how amicable, going thru something like that can play havoc with your self-esteem, etc.

Actually, at this stage in my reading, I admire and feel sorry for the woman who felt she had to tell the world about bad parts of her life. Maybe it was justification, I don't know. I don't know how I would have acted in her situation. But I'm sure that while writing this book there was an editor somewhere leaning over her shoulder. At some points in the writing, there was direction coming from someone other than Dr. J.

'Nough said. I have some really dumb questions but will leave them for later.

Well, I can't resist posting again. I told ELLA before we started the discussion that I would post in the evening. (just as a way of dividing the responsibility) This is such a neat conversation that I can't resist getting my "2 cents" in now too.

HATS: I am a fiction reader too. I had no idea I would have much to say with this book. Is it the book or the people here? I think it is the people here.

PEDLN: I am looking forward to your "dumb questions," as you put it. What everyone is saying turns my thoughts to different directions and gives me new things to think about.

Hi JANE and good night ELLA (are you up yet).

Marjorie

Pedlin - I had the same reaction as you; but, because I haven't even opened the book yet I thought I would pass on commenting <g>. I will say, that all these comments have really whet (or is that 'whetted'?)my appetite for the book. Tomorrow is library day!

Maggie

Hurry, Maggie, and get reading so you and Pedln can add your comments here...you know mine, so far ;0) LOL!

I think part of my questions about Nielsen came from hearing only such raving over her situation...how brave, how courageous, how just ...well...perfect she was...all the interviews, the TV shows, etc...and then I heard a nurse comment that she was uneasy with some of the book...so when Ella and Marjorie decided to do this discussion I got the book and started reading...and was...uh...surprised and uncomfortable with the earlier reviews I'd heard.

Perhaps I skim too much and am too lazy to reread, but

Is the floor of dome total ice? of the living quarters?

If they have toilets, why do they need P-bottles?

A friend, who is an avid cyclist and camper, once ordered a "thing" from a catalog that aids women in such situations. At least, she didn't have to pull her shorts down and squat in the poison ivy.

Back to other comments, remember all those touchy-feely self-help books of the 60's and 70's? There was a title akin to "Why am I afraid to tell you who I am" or "Will you like me if I tell you who I am."

Oh, we have a dissenter in our midst and it is refreshing, Pedln, really. We encourage all opinions and it is time to move on away from the Dr. J. So glad you feel free to disagree. However, one last remark you made I would like to address as I had the same thought - "I did have concerns about what her children would think if they read her book." Would they, do you think, think more or less of their mother after the book was publicized? A good question and one to keep in mind as we go on.

We will get to your other questions as we go on into the book, but I do know that the floor of the dome is all ice, two miles thick - see the picture on page 174.

Please remember there are never "dumb" questions, I've always felt that it was the "fool" who stopped asking questions!

Oh, Marjorie, am so glad you came in - I'm late today, it's Labor Day, a holiday and what was I doing? Laboring out in the backyard trying to get a start on fall cleaning up of flowers and the like, but now with a shower and clean clothes, I'm ready for the day.

Isn't this fun! Maggie, you must get your book - we need more dissenters to liven up the conversation!

A nurse said that, Jane? Hmmmmmm. That's going to be interesting when we get to that part. Where is our resident nurse, ALF? Someone yell at her!

In the LOOKING GLASS chapter wasn't the history of the American buildup at the Pole fascinating? I'm going to quote a bit of it for lurkers who might be reading this and want to ask a question. Do come in and feel welcome here:

"It wasn't until after WWII, when the U.S. military was looking for footholds all over the globe to stop the spread of Communism, that the American government took an official interest in Antarctica. --the U.S. military launched the largest single expedition to explore Antarctica, dropping more than 4700 men on the continent. In 1956, the U.S.Navy landed an aircraft on the geographic South Pole and established an American presence there. Construction soon began on the first South Pole station, which would eventually be named for Amundsen and Scott.

And the book continues the history by telling us that the Soviet Union made its own push into the area establishing a base of Vostok, 800 miles away the Americans. However a military buildup on the continent was averted when 12 nations signed the Antartica Treaty in 1960 setting aside the land and waters as a zone of peace, devoted to scientific discovery. Later 31 other countries have joined the treaty.

Isn't it neat that at times, somewhere, on some continent, nations can organize themselves in such a manner as to avoid war?

One last thing here that peaked my interest. "While Antarctica is still the most remote and pristine destination on the planet, about 10,000 tourists a year come to cruise the coastline, ski on virgin snow or clim the immaculate peaks."

If you ever write a book, would you like us to be the critics? Hahahaha

We must give the lady credit for doing something anyway!!!! I'm reminded of an old adage - "to escape criticism - do nothing, say nothing, be nothing."

I'm having a hard time sorting out my own feelings because, on a personal level, I truly agree with the concepts of responsibility to children, parents, family, and employers. I've lived my life accepting the obligation to ride a reasonably stable life course so that I can be available to those I love. The world needs us "salt of the earth" family members and good friends.

But on the other hand, how do we define a real explorer? Or, for that matter, ANY creative person who is swept along by overwhelming goals? Maybe s(he) IS someone driven by needs that are beyond the norm and, in pursuing them, chooses to be single-minded and self-absorbed enough to turn a blind eye to the needs of others. Many such people WOULD be impulsive risk-takers and hard on the heartstrings of anyone who loves them. If they act first and think later, maybe they wouldn't have perfect fortitude either.

I don't advocate living this stance. I simply believe it exists and should be acknowledged. Dr. Jerri is far from perfect, but I question whether her negative personal traits should cancel out my admiration for her sense of courage and adventure.

I've been having fun trying to visualize young Charles Lindbergh and his mother as he breaks the news about his impending transatlantic flight plans. Crazy, risky venture, no? History doesn't record the state of Mother Lindbergh's health or emotions when Charles embarked on that record breaking flight. If Charles had died during that flight, what would have been his mother's private opinion of her son's personality? Foolishly brave? Impulsive? Irresponsible? I wonder...

I'm very interested in the viewpoint of our resident nurses on Dr. Jerri. Was she a good doctor?

Harriet

Thanks, Harriet, for that very thoughtful post and absolutely you are right, we must have those that are willing to take risks! Columbus, sailing the ocean blue, Lindburgh, goodness yes.

But when you stated this:" Maybe s(he) IS someone driven by needs that are beyond the norm and, in pursuing them, chooses to be single-minded and self-absorbed enough to turn a blind eye to the needs of others" I feel impelled to add one last thought before I leave for the day (and Marjorie can take over). I read a lot of "me-ism" in this book, coining a word here. Self-absorbed, indeed, I think our author is, not too concerned about how her actions and the publicizing of the "dirty linen" of her family is going to affect them, particularly the children who will, unless they change their names, be characterized as the children of this troubled family - an abusive father and a mother - well, we've said it all.

Also, Harriet, for everyone's sake in the group, those that do not have the book yet, and those of us who are still discussing and reading the first four chapters, we don't want to get ahead into the medical aspects of this doctor yet. It's just so nice to have everyone on the same "page" if you will.

And in line with what you just said about risk-taking, at the end of Chapter Two Dr. J. asked about survival training and she was told "You don't get survival training when you're a Polie. If you end up outside in the night, you die." That's serious risk-taking!!

Ella, I should have written that I'm interested in the opinions of the nurses ALSO, when the time comes. That was certainly what I meant. I was responding to both Jane's comment #107 and yours Ella, in your post #110, and I had no intentions of "jumping the gun."

Harriet

PEDLN: I read what ELLA did that the floor of the dome (and their quarters, I think) is ice. What I can't understand is how they can stand on ice and not freeze. Do they have their boots on all the time? How can boots that are not warm enough for outside be warm enough on the ice floor? Of course I am a person whose feet are freezing a lot in a house with carpets on the floor. The second question you posed was a question I had too. The only thing I could think of is that there were not very many toilets for the number of people living there.

ELLA: I think it would be great if the experience of working/living in peace in Antarctica could be expanded to other parts of the world. My guess is the only reason it works there is there is so much space and relatively few people in that space. I wonder if out in Space that kind of cooperation will be possible.

HARRIET: What a great comparison with Charles Lindburg. Thanks for bringing that to the discussion. I am not aware of any "adventurers" in my circle of family and friends. It is good to have someone else to consider.

One of the great things about this discussion is that we have so many views presented. Different aspects of the situation to consider. And we agree to disagree.

Hi MAGGIE and JANE.

I hope everyone had a great Labor Day.

Marjorie

What I can't imagine is being the one and only doctor in the whole place. Then, you have to be the dentist too, a job you trained for rather quickly. Also, she does her own x-rays and takes blood and a hundred other duties.

On top of that, Dr. Jerri had all of this old, old equipment. It just seems like it's too much work for one person. What about burnout? Well, when you have to go on, I guess you go on. Or, does your body just break down?

Good morning everyone!

There are so many questions here that I cannot find the answers to in this book, am I the only one? Maybe I'm just dense, but I cannot figure it all out. Going to that one picture of the inside of the Dome (pg.174) - are those structures or boxes where they live? Is this picture taken from the very top of the Dome looking down? The boxes do not seem to be large enough to accommodate people + equipment - is this what you understand? And yet, these boxes are 2 stories high.

Great God, this is an awful place. Yes! So confining, I couldn't live in those conditions. Somewhere in here Dr. J. mentions this is how in the early part of this century, or before, families lived, three generations of them lived together and she believes we have lost this closeness, the intimacy of it (can anyone tell me where that is, what page?). For myself, I'm glad we've lost the intimacy, I like space around me and I think that's why the outdoors must have been so beautiful to them when they could get out - space and more space!

And the altitude - 9300 feet above sea level, you get dizzy and lightheaded, the air is worse than an L.A. freeway during rush hour? All bathrooms are coed, a man using a urinal when I'm sitting on the john. Oh, no way! I'd never get my system used to that, I need privacy there - I maybe could get by elsewhere, but not in the bathroom.

And now I see what Pedln was talking about - these "p-barrels" - peanut butter jars? It's so unfair of God to make men with parts that can use funnels and leave us so physically impaired that we have to sit, or squat; it is just in the last decade that it has been brought to the attention of structural engineers (mostly male) that there is a need for more women's restrooms than men's; of course, they never noticed that there are long lines for the use of women's restrooms in public places. I've noticed articles about this in the media - this is probably due to the fact that there are more female engineers today, right?

Well, I do believe here it is a case of Dr. J. making the best of it, do you all agree? When she makes statements such as this:

It was good that we all had less than we could use. It made things more precious and life less messy. Later, I would come to deeply understand that the human resources on the base were also finite. As there were no spare parts for the machines, there were no spare people, either

How on earth (or on the ice) did those 4700 men that came to the Pole back in the fifties survive? Now there would be a story!

I heard someone on TV the other day talk about America vs. Europe and how Americans do everything BIG! Big cars, big buildings, big portions of food (in Europe the portions are so much smaller and consequently people are not as obese), and 4700 people on the ice seems a big, big undertaking to me. Wow!

And as one of you pointed out the xray machine was a museum piece? Why didn't Will and former doctors get a new one?

Back later! Keep your comments and questions coming, maybe we can figure it all out later. No.... I'm going to need help understanding those boxes in that picture. Maybe on the Internet we can find something?

PEDLN - I just read your comment over again and you said A friend, who is an avid cyclist and camper, once ordered a - "thing" from a catalog that aids women in such situations. At least, she didn't have to pull her shorts down and squat in the poison ivy. " And I'm curious, what was the thing? Maybe we can email the station and tell them about. I think they have an email address on the site above. I'll look again.

HARRIET thanks so much for being understanding about the schedule posted above. It is easier for all involved to stay within the chapters; otherwise the group can get very confused and we are all over the place in the book, turning pages frantically to find where the poster is referring. Appreciate it!

ELLA: I found this site on the Internet to answer one of your questions: Travelmate This is similar to something I saw on a camping trip 10-15 years ago, except that what I saw was shorter and did not have that point. I believe what I saw is like what PEDLN is describing. Seems to me the South Pole is considered a place for men and there is little attention paid to the needs of the women who are there.

Oh my goodness! What a great discussion and a few new readers have joined in. That is always SO exciting, I love it. Nurse Ratchett has been very busy with company as Bill and I always throw a large Labor Day clam bake. Years ago it started out as a bloody Mary party but Lord knows that's not in the picture anymore. I promise to return and comment on the freezing, biting ice story tomorrow. You all have made such great observations nd opinions about this one. This is one of those reads where I still put the book down , shake my head and am astounded. "I didn't know that," seems to be the ctch phrase for me.

I can't quit laughing, Marjorie!!! hahahahahahahahaha

How do we get into such subjects as these??????????

Are there any men around and wouldn't they have a good laugh!

hahahahahahahahahahahah

Now would anyone understand this thing in your purse and imagine using it while you are driving? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ella, and Marjorie:

I hope you noticed, in that advertisement, this particular comment:

"It’s also great for women (of sound mind— no dementia) who have a difficult time transfering to a toilet......."

Lorrie

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. I didn't read the description that was there before I just found the picture I wanted and made a clickable. How about the tapestry carrying case?

HATS: I agree with you about the need for better medical equipment. It is quite a challenge to be the only medical/dental person at the South Pole for the nine months it is closed to the outside. It is a huge responsibility.

-----------------------------

ELLA: You mentioned not being able to figure out what their living quarters look like. The South Pole Website clickable in the heading (that PEDLN provided) will provide some pictures. One thing is it is not very easy to use. I suggest either right click and Open in New Window or open it and bookmark the site. There is no way that I could find to go from the South Pole home page to the Station Tour and back to the Home Page. Maybe I missed something.

If you do use the clickable, take the Station Tour. Then you can click on the Biomed box and you will see the outside of the building and the entrance which gives you an idea of what the building is like. If you click on either of the tunnels (to Skylab or escape) you will see frost on the walls and the ice floor. Clicking on the Power Plant will also show the ice floor and the wall. Clicking on the Blue Room you will see boxes of food being stored in an "ice room". If you want to see pictures of people, click on the Galley. You don't get much of a sense of the building but do get to see pictures of people.

Marjorie

Went to pick up ICE BOUND from the library today. Even though the computer said it was on the shelf, the librarian couldn't find it anywhere! They ordered a copy from a branch and I should have it in a day or two. So frustrating! Would have gone to another branch, but had waited many hours for a UPS shipment to arrive and then it was too late to go chasing after the book.

I probably won't be able to join in this first week. I'll be here 'listening'.

Maggie

MAGGIE: Whenever you get your book is fine with us. Especially since you are going to be here anyway. One thing about this type of discussion is that the reading doesn't "have to" be completed at a particular time. I think we got a little sidetracked in our discussion today anyway and left the book a bit. I am as guilty as anyone of doing that.

I was interested in Dr. Jerri's description of her first experience of the Dome (in the Chapter Great God, This Is an Awful Place):

Will and Mike guided me down an icy ramp to a tunnel that let to a small town of orange-red metal buildings under the geodesic canopy. In the early 1970s, when the aluminum Dome was being constructed, its ice floor was flush with the level of the plateau. almost 30 years of storms and blowing snow had nearly buried the structure, which ws 165 feet wide and 55 feet tall.

That is a very clear image of what the forces of nature can do. It is very difficult for me to imagine that the South Pole Station "rests on a 9,000 fout thick slab of ice."

Not a place I want to be. It is fine to read about it in the comfort of my chair at home.

Marjorie

Marjorie - Great! Glad I won't be thrown out before I'm 'in.' LOL! Good grief! A 9000-foot thick slab of ice! Naw, I don't want to be there either. I don't like the hot weather, but I'm certain I wouldn't like Antartica! Brrrrrrrr...

Maggie

Marjorie, I clicked on all of those things on the left side of the South Pole website and did get to all those "thumbnail pictures" - are those the ones you are referring to? One of those showed the gallery with people sitting there eating - they were just in sweatshirts - that's what it looked like to me. I thought they had to dress warmer inside???? And then I saw a picture of a fellow in a greenhouse showing basil that he was growing, and a lot of outdoor pictures, but only the two inside ones. Yes, I saw the one of the entrance leading into the Dome.

I still must be missing the Station Tour - I'll look again.

The big picture is lovely though of the Dome as it looks today, it is still winter there. Dark but you see a little light showing on the horizon which means that it will soon be summer and the sun will shine again there.

And if you die there - what did you think of those procedures? You are cleaned, packed and frozen (and presumably placed on the top of the Dome with the frozen meat) and hopefully, you will not be mistaken for such? Haha

On the news last night Tom Brokaw had a segment about the glaciers in Glacier National Park melting, few left actually, but I learned how they measure the thickness of the ice - by radar waves I think he said. Interesting. Has anyone ever been there? I can't think it would be too interesting to see a glacier??? Just thick ice? What do you think?

Where are the rest of you today?

Did you read that people become "agitated, hyperactive, and easy to anger during the polar SUMMER. (I can get that way in any weather haha) Isn't that strange? When it is light and they can go outside???? And that Big Eye syndrome doesn't sound good either.

But Dr. Jerri - giving her credit here after all our "bashing" as PEDLN rightfullly called it, started the AMA (funny) of Antarctica which will study such phenomenon as low body temperatures, oxygen starvation and hypothermia.

Do hope all the rest of you come in with your opinion of how it must be to live at the Pole and what would affect you the most - the weather, dark/light months, the cramped conditions - what?

ELLA: The way you describe the pictures you did do the Station Tour. It is interesting but not as sophisticated as some websites. They have other things to do there I guess. <G>

ELLA asked for "opinion of how it must be to live at the Pole and what would affect you the most - the weather, dark/light months, the cramped conditions - what?"

I think not having day and night would make a big difference. I wouldn't be able to sleep in the summer because there is light all the time and I might not be able to stay awake in the winter. That is an exaggeration of course. I do find it difficult to go to sleep where there is too much light and I wake up in a second if a light is turned on when I am already sleeping.

Another thing I don't like is dark days in the winter. I feel pretty blah then with almost no energy. I can't imagine living with only artificial light. Does anyone remember where it said how much light they had to live by? I seem to recall it wasn't much because of the shortage of power.

I also don't like cold. I don't know about the crowded conditions. I haven't had much experience with that. A few times I went away for a weekend retreat with more people than I am usually with. I had trouble being part of the group but enjoyed myself. That was a number of years ago. I hope now I would able to be part of a strange group of people if I found myself on retreat again. I even thing SeniorNet has helped me that way by allowing me to find a way to be part of the SeniorNet group.

Marjorie

Ella - I have just been a lurker here, don't have the book yet. Wanted to comment on glaciers as I can see some substantial ones from my window here in Alaska. They are absolutely a gorgeous work of nature's art. Glaciers are very dynamic - moving foward or retreating. There is a totally different sound when walking upong them as compared to walking on the earth. They calve meaning chunks of ice fall off. One can see the layers of snow & ice that have built up. Glaciers are not as white as one would think as they are covered with the dust that floats about just like in my house! Often they look blue close up which is a reflection of the sun on the ice. I have spent time on the glaciers near my home & also have skied on glaciers in Europe. Loved that. Oh, glaciers often are huge - miles & miles of ice streaming down the mountain like a big river. They are neat!

Kathy

Hi Marjorie, Ella and all,

"Each person could have two two-minute showers per week and wash one load of laundry. You flushed the toilet only when necessary."

I had to write the quote down from the book because I feared that I would get the facts wrong. It would drive me crazy not to be able to shower whenever I felt like it. And what about restful, soothing BUBBLE BATHS?

Two two-minute showers is just impossible! No way! Not to mention that stuff about when to flush the toilet. Oh boy, I would be the grumpiest person ever! I wouldn't have to ask to leave. They would ask me to leave because I would be a spoilsport.

KathyHill - Thanks for stopping in and telling us about your glacier experience. I visited your state a few years ago on World Explorer and we sailed up Tracy Arm to Stewart Glacier (I believe.) There was much calving. Such an impressive sight! I took dozens of photos. It was too foggy for the helicopters to land us on Mendenhall Glacier, so the ships captain took us to Stewart instead. Glad World Explorer is a small ship <g>.

Maggie

Kathy: Our daughter and husband have just returned from a 15 day visit to your state and their most vivid descriptions are of the glaciers "shades of blue."

Harriet is right! I hadn't really thought of the brass, daring and "chutzpah" it would take to even consider taking on such an adventure as Dr. J accepted. What do I expect of someone with the coolness and courage to make an intrepid journey into such a grizzly, white location? She would need that stand-offish, aloof, indifferent deameanor wouldn't she? Perhaps I am being too critical.

Many have asked about her professional atttitude and I'm not certain that I believe what she has written. Personally, I do not see me liking or respecting her as a physician BUT I will withhold judgement (for a change) until we get more into the physician realm. she states that she had been atracted to the dark side of human experience since she was a child, when she learned to manage her emotions. Noone can convince me that this is a GOOD thing if you are a physician. She claims that is what drew her to emergency medicine; to enjoy the thrill of conquering her demons, seeing what human behavior is all about and to know the people who are struggling. I don't buy that!

Ruptured 4 discs? Not being diaganosed for 13 years, compressing on her spinal cord? This humbled her made her more compassionate??? mmm?

I found it most interesting that a land 97% covered in ice was not owned by anyone but administered thru an international treaty. Why did I think the US owned and possessed that land?

Ella asked about glaciers...yes, I've been through Glacier National Park and I've walked on a glacier in Canada...north of Lake Louise...Athabasca (sp?).

I would not go to Antarctica nor even to Alaska for long periods of time because I don't think I'd like the darkness that winter brings and the constant light that summer brings...as I've heard. I do not know that first hand. I guess I've assumed that anyone going to the far north or the far south knows that's part of the "deal" and is prepared for it. I guess I look at it as I do people who volunteered for the Peace Corps back in the 1960s....those folks knew it wasn't going to be the Ritz--Carleton and jet-set living when they signed on.

KathyHill, thank you for sharing your Alaska experience. What a wonder to be able to see glaciers from your window. I would love to visit Alaska.

KATHY HILL: Welcome. I am so glad you shared your experience of the glaciers. I guess you live the closest to the weather conditions in the pole of all the participants here. Am I right?

My son went to Alaska this summer. He said he liked it best from a distance. In the summer he said it was very muddy close up. The distance was gorgeous.

HATS: I agree with you about the showers. I haven't had a bubble bath in years but it does sound inviting. I am afraid if I were to get into a tub I wouldn't be able to get out. Maybe I could put bubbles in a hot tub though.

MAGGIE: One of these days I may be able to say I have gone to Alaska like you have. That is a dream right now.

ALF: I was also bothered by the part where she said "she learned to manage her emotions." I can't imagine being at the South Pole for 9 months in darkness without being able to do that. However, I do agree that it doesn't seem a very healthy thing to do. Certainly not very honest.

Marjorie

Kathy Hill -- thanks for your description of glaciers. I was in Alaska for about two weeks a couple of years ago, and the day spent in Glacier Bay was my favorite part of the trip.

I guess lots of thing are a matter of perspective. Regarding hours of daylight -- years ago we lived in Boston and my next door neighbor was from Denmark. She frequently remarked that one thing she really missed were the dark dark afternoons and black nights. To each his own.

I think is would be more difficult to cope with perpetual darkness than perpetual daylight. You can block out the light, but you can't force natural light.

Thanks for the nice welcome & the nice things that you have to say about this magnificent state.

Re. darkness: Alaska is huge & so a place like Barrow has 3 months when the sun does not come up & then 3 months when it does not go down. Coming south through the state then the dark/light time varies. Many people have trouble with the dark & I have found it interesting that the life in winter doesn;t change to take advantage of the light. For example, the schools don't have longer lunches or recesses sot hat the children could be outside longer in the daylight. There are more full spectrum lights installed around. I find the dark/light so interesting. The dark lets me sleep more, get quiet projects done. My community is very active in the winter & I love to be outside skiing or on my snowshoes every day. In the summer I feel that everyone is absolutely bonkers running around because of all of this light. It is energy galore up here. It is too bad that we just can't be plugged into a grid!

I would give my eye teeth to go to Antartica. I know a number who have gone & I guess it is spectacular.

Kathy

Hey, Marjorie what you said about SeniorNet and being a part of a group was wonderful. It's the same way I feel, too, you are among friends and feel comfortable here to express yourself. And, dear friend, it was been said by a number of people that our next Bookfest - our 2002 Bookfest - is going to be on the west coast - in California I think - and you must come. We have the best time - ALL OF YOU COME - YOU ARE ALL INVITED!!! We are off to Washington, D.C. this November - look below and sign up!! We'll all meet and greet and become old (not that kind of old) friends in no time.

Kathy, all of us have enjoyed your descriptions of Alaska and the glaciers and please stay with us as we continue on our journey in Antarctica, better yet get the book and read along with us. I've never been to Alaska, known people that have gone and they told us everyone should - it sounds very different from anything I've experienced and I like new experiences. I'll quote you a paragraph from the book about the ice:

The ice itself was carved into waves by the wind. The forms, called sastrugi, were as beautiful and hard as marble. The different size waves of ice produced musical notes when struck, like glasses of water hit with a spoon. We would lie on the ice and look at the sky………living at the edge of your senses, in such an extreme environment, makes life's simple joys more intense……feel a quiet so complete you could hear the blood slowly coursing through your veins.

Quiet is hard to come by in our world anymore, have you noticed?

But Hats says that if she were at the South Pole she would be the grumpiest person ever! I wouldn't have to ask to leave. They would ask me to leave because I would be a spoilsport" I don't know how I would react to such an environment.

Hello Maggie do you have your book yet? We're going slow as you can see but hope you get it soon.

Glad to hear from you, ALF. You obviously have much to say about Dr. Jerri and I think I know the direction you are heading in - as for now you have as much doubt about the character of Dr. Jerri as the rest of us, but I'm curious as to why it is NOT a GOOD thing to manage your emotions as a physician, in light of the fact they see such dreadful sights in an E.R. situation?

The description Dr. J. gave of an emergency room was totally unlike any I've experienced; she says she "dispositioned" them and off they went here and there; as she says the object of an ER is to move people through as quickly as possible, to "meet and street" them. Oh, really!! I've been 3 times to an emergency, once for myself and two times with others - we were met and then set down where we waited and we waited - and you all know about that!!!! Don't you????

Jane and Pedln have both seen glaciers! Aren't they slippery to walk on? And this "calving" doesn't happen when you are walking on them does it? Heavens, chunks of ice falling on - sounds frightening - but I don't at all know what I'm talking about as I've never seen one - someday maybe??

This is what Dr. J wrote home to her parents:

This place is like a space station or like a penal colony on an ice planet. I can't tell which. It is without time, without days or nights, and without any sense of being on the earth.

Not at my age I don't think! If I had had the opportunity when I was younger, I wonder if I would have, who is to know now. I think I could get used to the dark/light seasons, your body would adjust. Your mind, too, I think. But then I'll never know. Fun to read about though.

They do a lot of things to liven up the monotony don't you think? The way they celebrated the holidays and inventing their own at times, now that was neat!

The funniest thing in the whole book was when she asked her first dental patient if she was afraid of dentists and when she answered yes, Dr. J. told her not to worry - "I'm not one, " she said. Hahahaha

Have you ever ridden in a snowmobile? Did you think it was fun? And I bet it was just on snow - would you go faster on ice? I'd bet! Kathy said she skied on ice - would that be a lot faster than packed snow? And if you fell down, wouldn't you be more apt to get hurt?

Big John or BIG sounds like a neat guy and if you look at his picture the name fits him very well doesn't it.

Must go, back later………. Keep your comments coming, we're all interested in your experiences with ice, snow, cold, your views on this book and Dr. J. and her friends at the Pole.

My impression of Dr. Jerri Nielsen, first from the book, then from a short television interview and another hour-long presentation....."a character," as I wrote here months ago, I think. Irreverent, lively, self-effacing, a cut-up. I learned from the book that she's thoughtful, full of thoughts, sensitive to what's happening with others, very intelligent.

I identified with Pedln's thoughts. I just caught up with all the posts and am really surprised at the negative impression so many had from the first of the book. What I know for sure is that I don't know enough about the situation with her kids to say she did anything wrong. I thought she sounded defensive, trying to defend a decision that's probably impossible to explain fully in a public book....but the defensiveness didn't put me off, it made me think she was worried sick about the kids but that she squared her shoulders and decided to keep her life going. I do know that men with power and money (for a team of lawyers) can get all kinds of legal leverage.

If my body could endure the adventure, which it can't, I'd go to the South Pole in a heartbeat!!!! Just for the challenge, the thrill of doing hard work with others as foolhardy/wonderful as each would have to be. A test of survival every day, as I remember from the book (but won't give details yet). Having to face my fears, my hatred for cold, my need for greenery. My best times in life, so far, have been when I did something that had great promise and fear equally. Hey, I think that's 3 of us that would go...not a bad percentage.

betty

Ella, I laughed about Dr. J's dental joke too. However, I felt very glad that I was not the patient in the dental chair. Couldn't they have at least sent a dentist there along with a doctor?

Kathy, I was enchanted with your description of glaciers. It reminded me of one of my memorable sights. Once, while riding through the Tetons in Wyoming, I saw a view so heartstoppingly beautiful that it took my breath away. The quality of the late afternoon light combined with the shadows and colors of the trees and sky in a stunning glow. The Teton mountains rose around us and the light had an aura that I don't have words to describe, but that I will never forget. It was so very beautiful. Your description of glaciers brought back that memory for me. Hey, thanks!

I took the South Pole tour on Pedln's site, which I thought was fascinating. The photos of the kitchen focused on people, rather than equipment. I wish there had been more of a glimpse of the business end of the kitchen too.

I understand that since the base was originally built by Seabees, the kitchen had been modeled after the galley of a ship...long and narrow. Considering all the people that had to be served several times a day, it must have been a challenge to work in a room that was comparatively constricted. Yet Dr. J. talked about the surprisingly good food at the South Pole.

What organization must have necessary! Getting enough food stored for the winter must have been a no-mistakes-allowed proposition. Out in the rest of the world, there's always some way to stock up on extra needed food supplies, even for boats at sea. Not at the South Pole. They had to get it right. The cooks must have had a daily job hauling frozen foodstuff from the upper levels where they were stored to the kitchen level for use.

Did any of you notice the quality of the indoor lighting in the photos of the tour? It made me wish for a good shot of sunshine just from looking at it. Just me, I guess.

I think Dr. J. mentioned that the first American South Pole base was constructed in the mid 1950's. Does anyone know if e-mail would have been available then? It seems to be the main source of access to the outside world while wintering on the ice for Dr. J. and friends.

How total the isolation would have been if there was no e-mail for past scientific expeditions!

Harriet

I'm sure there was no email in the 1950s...I assume they communicated by short wave radio/ham radio, perhaps?

There probably is not enough "business" to keep a dentist busy at the South Pole...remember there are only a total of 41 people there...and they're all younger than about 40, it seems...except for a couple, including Nielsen who is 47,I believe when this is happening. They've all had physicals and dental checkups, etc., so a tooth problem seems unlikely...how many dental patients did she see, does she say? I seem to recall that the stats from previous winters showed that the doc had 3 patients a week? Does anyone remember where she talked about that..it was in the early chapters, I think????

EDIT: Just found it finally...p. 24 "On average, the South Pole doctor saw only three patients a week during the winter."

š jane›

Jane, I missed that stat. I guess that means Dr. J was not overworked, not as far as seeing patients. I just got the impression that she was overwhelmed. Maybe I read my own feelings into her work schedule.

My best times in life, so far, have been when I did something that had great promise and fear equally. Hey, I think that's 3 of us that would go...not a bad percentage.

Thanks for that comment,Betty. That should reassure us all that, as Harriet stated, we still need and have adventurers in our midst! Or in our children/grandchildren's lives, anyway. And now I've got to give some thought about where I encountered both promise and fear equally!!!

And Harriet mentioned the organization required. Indeed that would be fearful enough for me! Survival would depend on it, but I think they must have had lists to work with from those who had gone before, don't you?

Dr. J., should have been equal to the task of 3, even 5, patients a day after being an ER doc!

Maybe her patient load was not heavy, but I think Dr. J had to use a great deal of creativity there, more then she had to use in an emergency room. She had no technicians, and she worked with old equipment. Then, wounds did not heal as quickly there. One woman's fingers were stitched, and then, the stitches popped open. Even bandages did not hold. I think she used duct tape.

"Common medical supplies such as adhesive bandages were useless here. They wouldn't stick. Duct tape sometimes worked, electrical tape was great because it stretched."

I know she worked in an emergency room, but I feel that she faced more difficulties at the Pole.

As far as dental problems, sure, everyone was checked before the trip, but unforeseen problems could and did develop. I am thinking of Dr. J's cancer.

I think in the summer months Dr. was very busy. "Summer months were intensely busy because there were so many people to treat. Sometimes I saw fifteen patients a day. I was terribly apprehensive for my first three months at the Pole because, on top of my patient load, I wanted to check all my supplies...."

Ok...you all know I'm not particularly fond of Nielsen...so here goes my "take" on some of this medical stuff....

Someone mentioned the impression she was overworked...Nielsen uses that term to describe her own situation...but I think later in the book than now...but I don't remember the exact place. Maybe we'll come to it later.

Yes, "sometimes" she saw 15 patients [which, to me, means most days she didn't] ...but wouldn't those be very similar to what she'd seen in ER...only far less serious/traumatic? It's not likely that she saw a lot of drug users having heart attacks, knife wounds, severe auto accidents, overdoses of cocaine/heroin, gun shots, very sick babies with high temps, etc. that are pretty routine in a big city ER. She brags in the early chapters about her extensive surgical skills, so finding out that electrical tape works better than adhesive tape at holding together stitches from a cut doesn't seem like it'd be a great intellectual/medical discovery.

Of course, the unseen emergencies do always arise...and I need the Nurses to help me here...wouldn't/shouldn't an ER doc who also did Family Practice for awhile be a pretty good "all round jack of all trades" doc, if not a specialist in anything in particular?

the dissenting jane

She wasn't just a doctor. She was technician, nurse, cleaning person, scrounger, etc. Also, everyone was showing signs of "hypoxia" -- not sure I have that right -- because of the high altitude, so even the doc was not functioning at her best. I would guess it takes more time there to accomplish something, than say, on the banks of the Mississippi.

Special note to Ella Please don't say "at my age" -- you're good for whatever you want, and it's never too late to set goals. (One of our church members went on a mission trip to Guatemala last summer at the age of 91, made his wife go too, and he's planning to go again next summer.)

Well, here's my opinion on the Doc's workload...Compared to the numbers of patients per day she would have treated in a busy ER, she saw far less patients on the Pole. However given her additional responsibilities (e.g. setting up operations in harsh environs; repairing outdated equipment; ordering, storing, and rationing supplies; brushing up on basic low-tech medical skills; fussing with homebase health care providers, and; assuming 24 hour call) she probably felt it all was a tremendous burden - particularily when she singlehandidly was responsible for the health and well being for a high risk population (not to mention her friends and commrades) for a prolonged period of time!

And my opinion about cramped and rugged living spaces/conditions...It bodes well for international relationships because each needs to contribute to the common good as "if a/your life depends on it"!

And last, my opinion about those contraptions...For those of you who are skeptics, along with scientific discoveries, see what other things can come about on adventure travels?! HA! What next?!

In Chapter 4 (The Hard Truth Medical Center):

Health care was not my only job at the South Pole station. My other official titles were "storekeeper" and "postmaster." The doctor ran the store and post office two nights a week during winter and kept their books and inventory.

One question I have is was the store and post office only open two nights a week or did someone else have that responsibility also. It is not clear from the way this is stated which is the case.

I think I would find it difficult to keep the books if my body was distracted by altitude sickness. Maybe after a while the body adjusts. I don't know. ALF, do you know?

HATS: I had the same reaction you did to the comment about Dr. J not being a dentist. I wouldn't have wanted her to say that to me when she was about to perform dentistry on my mouth.

I guess JANE is right that radio would have been the means of communication in the 50s. It certainly was not email. Email is less than 10 years old.

CINDY: I really like your comment And my opinion about cramped and rugged living spaces/conditions...It bodes well for international relationships because each needs to contribute to the common good as "if a/your life depends on it"! Maybe we should send some of the world's leaders to the South Pole for a winter and see if they learn to cooperate. I don't want to get into politics here but I can imagine some interesting senarios.

Marjorie

Cindy: I don't understand what you mean about these 41 scientists being a "high risk population." High risk for what?

Wouldn't she have known, before signing on, that she would be the sole medical provider...that there were not going to be technicians, nurses, etc. there? Do you think that the gov't mislead her in that she thought she'd have all sorts of support people there for caring for/treating these 41 person caseload? I don't recall any information from her on that...does anybody recall?

š jane›

Jane, "high risk population" seems an apt description to me, simply because one or all of the group were at risk of severe injury or death every hour of every day. If, all of a sudden, the power shut down and, for some reason, the questionable backup system didn't kick in, all would die within, what, 30 minutes? An hour? (Does someone remember what she wrote?) Even a run-of-the-mill broken arm or leg (somewhere in the book she mentioned that someone was always falling in the gap between the main building and the mounting, surrounding ice) could be tricky to treat....bones slow to heal, months struggling with crutches on the ice, no sophisticated MRI machine to see a multiple fracture. Also, I think she mentioned the risk of someone getting pregnant...or discovering being pregnant just after arrival. Her mentioning that made me remember how we take for granted the ease of normal pregnancy; that, in fact, pregnancy is such an assault on a body's system....and a normal pregnancy can switch to an emergency in a flash. Oh, goodness, I just had a picture of an hours-old newborn at the South Pole???? Wow, just think of the equipment they wouldn't have on hand for a newborn....if something extra was needed.

I guess somewhere between death and broken bones would be the risk of serious injury or illness....a stroke, or severe burns. What I remember most about "risk" were the several months when they were completely isolated. No one could come in or out. I guess that one fact could determine if someone died from a severe burn or from illness that required treatment at a major medical facility. I remember her concern over the possibility that they might have to keep working for months after someone died. They would be mourning a friend, continuing to work and, all the while, the body would still be on site. Eeeeooooo. Gross.

betty

I have read the book and I think most of you have been needlessly critical of Dr. Nielsen as a person. The first few posts dealt with her personal life, and judgment of her actions, which is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS! "Judge not, lest you be judged."

When you consider the number of patients she treated each day, consider how much time your personal doctor, or an ER doctor, spends with you compared to the support staff of nurses and aides. Does your doctor draw blood, take it into the lab, examine and test it, write up the results, and then tell you the results? How about x-rays? Does your doctor position you on the table, calculate the exposure, take the films, develop and dry the films? Or does he just evaluate the x-ray given him? And do all of this while working under primitive conditions in a REFRIGERATOR?

Let's stop beating up on this lady and consider her situation and concerns. Critique the book, not the author. Ask yourselves if your criticism of her is due partially to your disapproval of her personal actions with her ex-husband, children and father.

Just my humble opinion.

Oscar

Oscar, although I agree with you (in subject, but in different words, maybe), I thought I'd mention that here in Books and Lit, we've worked diligently, and are still working, to welcome all manner of diverse perspectives....on authors and books, etc. Disagreement is never easy, but I have to notice that the longer we work on the "how" of it, the easier the fact of it becomes. I think.

The limb that's been tempting me would take us away from the heart of the discussion, but since you mentioned what I've been thinking, Oscar, here goes.

There is still a measurable difference (look at the studies) between perceived male authority and perceived female authority. In everyday life, that fact shows up in not questioning men and in questioning women. Several posters have said or hinted that they didn't believe Dr. Nielsen, or that she exaggerated, etc. We do that less often to men...we question their authority less.

Also, (as I scoot to the very end of this limb), I think there is still hell to pay whenever a woman accords importance to her professional career in ways that others could say that she didn't put her children "first." Even, as in this case, when she does not have access to them!!!!! I need to repeat here that I really don't know enough from the book to make any judgment on her decisions. I thought she was bold to tell as much as she did, but it certainly didn't add up to much. The little she told sounded like frustration and sadness to me and, as I wrote yesterday, defensiveness. When someone sounds defensive to me, I almost never think "guilt." I think "lack of support," and "needy" and "pain." I've been trying to think how I would feel if my teenage son (he's 30 now) was just out of my reach and I couldn't see him to let him know how much I loved him. That I couldn't see him to influence how he felt about me. I just feel it in my bones that Jerri Nielsen must have died a thousand deaths, waiting to hear a word here, a word there, about her children. I don't know if I could have lived through something like that. Maybe this is why she comes across as a real "character," a comedian of sorts. A grand mask.

Or, who knows. Maybe I'm wrong about her.

Ok, I'm safely behind some huge boulders now (just under the limb, or what's left of it), so let me have it!!!!

betty

  Yes, Hats, I agree that Dr. J had to face many more difficulties at the pole than she did in the ER.        Physicians are not usually good at creativity as they are accustomed to putting out their hands and expecting the nurses to fill them with the proper equipment.    I'm sure as an ER doc she learned her resourcefullness from the "patients."  People become very innovative and original when treating their own emergent situations.  Many times the "jimmy rigs" work as well, if not better, than our modern techniques.  15 patients is NOT a large patient load neither in the ER nor the Pole.

Jane:  The ideal ER physician would have Family Care Practice under his belt  but unfortunately, that is not (usually) the case.  The majority of ER physicians are now foreigners, diligently working the required hours to fulfill the prerequisites that are mandated for their licensure.  Many ER physicians are "travel docs" who jump from spot to spot, ER to ER.  Very few of them have a specialty.  The one thing that Dr. J does say that I give her credit for is that as a  member of an ER  team working together is essential.  As an ER nurse, that is vital.  "Get them in, move them out" is the motto of a triage team.  So 15 patients is not a burden unless it is 15 kids from a school bus accident, explosion, MVA, etc.  At that point more than one is too many.

This is my opinion of the facts, not the author.

This is such a challenge! But I loved it, and I applaud such diverse opinions that I read this morning. It makes for great conversation - if only we could be sitting around the breakfast table in person, wouldn't we have fun! I thank you all for your comments on the book and hope all of you stay around until the final summary.

In the beginning I had thought our main topic or focus would be on the doctor's biopsy, chemo and dramatic rescue, but, to my amazement, we have the author herself under the microscope and let me look at the ways each of you have recently responded to her and to her workload at the Pole:

Pedln - "She was technician, nurse, cleaning person, scrounger, etc. Also, everyone was showing signs of "hypoxia" -- not sure I have that right -- because of the high altitude, so even the doc was not functioning at her best" (Pedln, I promise not to use "age" another time! As Ben Franklin told us "All would live long, but none would be old." My creed from now on, I shall never be old)

Hats - "She had no technicians, and she worked with old equipment. Then, wounds did not heal as quickly there

Cindy - "However given her additional responsibilities (e.g. setting up operations in harsh environs; repairing outdated equipment; ordering, storing, and rationing supplies; brushing up on basic low-tech medical skills; fussing with homebase health care providers, and; assuming 24 hour call) she probably felt it all was a tremendous burden - particularly when she singlehandidly was responsible for the health and well being for a high risk population for a prolonged period of time!"

Marjorie points out that she had other responsibilities also, that of storekeeper and postmaster.

Betty - "bones slow to heal, months struggling with crutches on the ice, no sophisticated MRI machine to see a multiple fracture. Also, I think she mentioned the risk of someone getting pregnant...or discovering being pregnant just after arrival.

Oscar asks us to consider this: "Does your doctor draw blood, take it into the lab, examine and test it, write up the results, and then tell you the results? How about x-rays? Does your doctor position you on the table, calculate the exposure, take the films, develop and dry the films?

However, Jane states - "it's not likely that she saw a lot of drug users having heart attacks, knife wounds, severe auto accidents, overdoses of cocaine/heroin, gun shots, very sick babies with high temps, etc. that are pretty routine in a big city ER.."

And I would add this if the author had not opened up the subject of her troubled marriage, her abusive husband, her dismay, shock and sorrow over her children's lack of love and concern for their mother, then it is quite probable that none of these remarks would have made their way into this discussion.

Somewhat in the same vein as Betty stated, not exactly on the same limb though, I ask would a man who had been in the author's situation, such as the Doctor Will who is leaving the Pole as she takes his place, in writing a similar book, not of breast cancer certainly but hypothetically prostate cancer perhaps, discuss his personal life, his marriage, divorce, custody of children?

I think not, and because she is a woman she felt compelled to open herself to this sort of criticism that we are talking about. She did not need to put this personal and sordid story into the book. Why did she? That is my question. We have previously asked ourselves this and have wondered if she did so for selfish reasons - we all know the public (or so we have been told) delights in a love story gone wrong, a broken marriage, teenagers acting in rebellion. Why I ask again?

Oh, good, Maggie, we'll be looking forward to your comments.

I did want to add a couple of things this morning, and this firstis for Kathy Hill, because she brought up the beauty of the ice:

The place was so beautiful, so clean and perfect. I was beginning to learn to read the subtle changes in color and texture of the endless horizon, the wash of the sun through a thin veil of clouds, the direction of the wind. It is hard to imagine how many shades of white and blue there are until they, alone, give the world definition.

Is that how you feel about the ice, Kathy?

Had anyone ever heard of the "sin-eaters" of rural Wales and Ireland? Doesn't that sound weird?

I used to love to play croquet when we were children - does anyone play it anymore? It was one of my favorite games and the only one that I thought I could be competitive in - haha - I'm not the athletic type! But playing croquet on the ice? I laugh when I think of it - gosh, could you really make the ball soar?

I don't think of her story as "sordid." I think of it only as her life experience, a sad one. I feel for her, and yet, I have not had the same experience. I have been married since 1973, and I am still married to the same man, and we have four sons.

Anyway, I feel Dr J shared her experience to help others. I am only guessing because I have not read the whole book. For their personal reasons, I think more people today tell about painful ordeals. I think this is the age of revelation. People tell all. In a way, it is better than past generations who hid everything from children and everyone else.

Of course, I am just starting Chapter five.

It is fun and helpful having Nurse Alf around. Don't leave us Alf! When Dr J becomes a patient herself, I bet we will really need help.

Am enjoying the comments without having read the book! I feel that it is more natural for a woman to bare her soul. We do this often so that the person listening or reading will have the complete picture of who we are and the story that we are trying to relate. We also put that emotional charge into situations.

Re the ice: it is magnificent on the glacier and yet I feel that all of nature's treasures are magnificent.

Kathy

I am awed by the quality of this discussion. There were 10 posts waiting for me this morning. All of them well thought out and providing me lots to think about.

I hope there is some room on your limb BETTY because I am right there with you.

MARY PAGE: I haven't followed Dr. Jerri's story "in the newspapers, newsmagazines, and on the television news. [or] ...in the Auigust 2001 issue of Biography magazine" as you have. I hope you will keep us up-to-date on current happenings.

I appreciate your "opinion of the facts" ALF. I have only a patient's knowledge of medicine.

ELLA: I don't remember the mention in the book to croquet. I played it a few times as a child. Not often enough to gain any skill at all. I can't imagine playing on the ice, especially since the ice looks soft (slushy inside the dome, and snow outside) rather than hard like an ice rink. I would imagine the pucks would get stuck. If the outside ice is like a rink then, you are right, the puck would just sail along.

Glad you got the book MAGGIE. Now that you have read all our comments, you will might find yourself reading the book a little differently. I know I don't "catch" everything when I first read a book.

HATS you said it is fun having ALF around. I would like to add it is fun having all of you around. What a wonderful, varied group of people posting here. JANE, KATHY, and OSCAR thanks for contributing your insights.

Marjorie

Hi Marjorie: On page 92 Dr. J. is talking about all the games they played in the summer and is where she mentions croquet. I'm not sure how smooth the ice would be either, but I bet Big John could make them a playing surface - he can do just about anything!

And on pg. 94 is the story of the sin-eaters and now I forget why she brought the subject up.

A reminder that tomorrow we begin on the next 4 chapters!

I still feel that Dr. J. exposed her personal life as her only means of communicating with her children and telling them how she saw the breakup of the marriage. Her children certainly had their father's "take" on things. What other kind of forum DID she have available to her by the time this book went to press?

When she tried to speak to the children on the phone before she left for Antarctica, her ex-husband intervened. The kids were "too busy" to keep their visitation appointments and communication had dwindled. She knew her children had absorbed a view of their mother and the events surrounding the breakup of their parents that she felt was false.

The book provided a forum to tell the kids personally how much she loved them, (and I believe she DOES love them deeply!) If it also exposed personal business to the rest of the world, she had to choose whether that problem outweighed her need to finally "talk" to her kids in some form. Well, she made her choice!

Divorce provides some ugly family situations and her children would not be the only ones in the world to come from a dysfunctional family. In our society that hardly provides a stigma on the children. I feel the dirty linen that she exposed rebounded on herself and her ex-husband, not the kids. She had a right to plead her case in the only forum available to her. I guess this is not a popular view, so I'll listen to all comers who disagree.

She wanted to talk to her kids...it was that simple and that difficult.

Harriet

HARRIET: When I read your post where said "She wanted to talk to her kids...it was that simple and that difficult" I got goosebumps. That is how strongly that statement resonated for me.

ELLA: The reason for the reference to the sin-eaters is this:

I have always felt that a physician is like a sin-eater. You hold all the pain and secrets of everyone else in your heart, with no one to tell, no one to care for you. ... Well, I thought as the Hercules [with her friend Dorianne in it] lifted off into the cloudless sky, the sin-eater no longer has anyone here who loves her so much.

Even if her analogy of sin-eater to physician is overdone, her loneliness comes across clearly here.

Marjorie

Just in passing, I looked up some info on the blue ice of glaciers and would like to share it with you:

" Why does glacier ice look blue?

Glacier ice is often a deep blue color. This is because of how the sunlight passes through the ice and what happens to the sunlight. Sunlight looks white. The light is really made up of all the colors of the rainbow. Each of the sun's colors have different amounts of energy in them. When the sunlight tries to go through the solid glacier ice crystals the sun gets broken up into lots of colors. Red and yellow have very little energy and the thick ice soaks up the red light more than it soaks up the blue light. The blue light has enough extra energy to get away from the solid ice crystals without getting absorbed or soaked up. This is why the only color people see is the blue color that escaped. The blue light has enough energy to escape the ice so that you can see it. That is why glacial ice is often a deep blue color.

Some glaciers do not look blue to people. If the glacier has a lot of air bubbles inside the ice crystals, the white sunlight gets reflected not soaked up. If the sunlight can get through the ice without all the rainbow colors getting scattered and soaked up, the ice will look white.

Glaciers get soil, rocks, snow and dirt mixed up with the ice. Then the ice can look a dirty gray color.

By Josh H. and Zack"

I thought this was interesting since I was told once that the "blue" was caused by the ice being under heavy pressure, driving out much of the oxygen. Apparently that was untrue.

Oscar

I have some videos and DVDs about climbing Everest and other mountains, and quite often the ice looks a sea green.

happy - I came to the same conclusion as you regarding Dr. J and her children and the use of the book to reach them. It was when she said that after all she herself had been manipulated by their father, so she shouldn't be surprised that the children were similarly manipulated. I think she was courageous to move ahead with her own life, knowing that for the present she had lost control of her children.

I'll be in here tomorrow after finishing chapters 1-4. Thanks everyone for your encouragement!

Maggie

Hello everyone. I have just found this group and decided to jump in. Unfortunately, I read _Ice Bound_ quite some time ago so will probably need to go back and do some reading if I am to participate in the discussion. Sounds lively already, and just in scanning I see some very interesting posts. I must say unfront that I loved the book and became totally engrossed in life at the Pole. Actually, I think Jerri was running from something she had no control over when she decided to go. She probably felt she had already lost her children so why sit around and feel sorry for herself. The major thesis of the book seemed to be the challenges of living at the Pole and her battle to survive her illness after it was diagnosed. Personally, I would love the opportunity to meet Jerri or hear her on TV - and almost envy those of you who have been able to do so.

HANNAB: Delighted to have you join us. I am rereading Chapter 5 now in preparation for our second week of discussion. The heading says we start Chapters 5-8 on Sunday, the 9th. I bet ELLA meant to put the 8th there, but Labor Day was this week so I think starting the next group of chapters on Sunday will be just fine.

OSCAR: Thanks so much for that description of the colors of glacier ice. I don't know where I got the idea, but I thought it was because of the refection of the sky. I enjoy learning new things.

MAGGIE: You seem to be moving right along in your reading. That's great.

Hi MARY PAGE. Talk to you all tomorrow.

Marjorie

Hi all. So sorry to be late getting here but I had a major (computer) virus which impacted many other things. I read the library book last spring and am still awaiting the arrival of my very own from Amazon - should be here any day. One note to all - a virus-checker alone is not enough - you DO have to do the updates as they come along! Nuff said. And Ella, again, I appreciate your warm invitation to join in.

I was glad to read some of the recent posts which reflect my own feelings about Dr. J. I guess I liked/admired her from the start and, while disturbed about the failure in her personal life, felt that they were not necessarily due to her own fault(s). My only semi-conclusion was that she was, in a last-ditch attempt, trying to reach her children. Dramatically and about the only way left to her. The pain must have been terrific and again, I admire the gumption.

One other thing - the book is coming out in paperback in November (or was it October?) and I wonder what updates might be included. Can those kids of hers really be so distant as to not even give her a phone call, or something? I think if it were not for the bleak circumstances of her personal life, the trip to the Pole might never have happened.

Following the discussion here, I find myself missing a section about the trip from home to the Pole. Not too interesting, as I recall (I couldn't wait for her to get all the way there!) but I'll catch up on that when the book gets here.

What great posts about glaciers. Oh, I do think this book just opens up so much to think about and talk about - above and beyond the author's "original" life. So glad to be here, so glad this book is being discussed and there is so much really nifty stuff ahead. Ahhh, life is good!

Welcome to our discussion of ICE BOUND, Hannab! We are so pleased you decided to post your message and hope you'll continue with us until the very end! And I'm afraid we didn't welcome Oscar appropriately either! So Welcome Oscar! And Diane, so happy you did made it, but I knew you would eventually! Good morning to you all!

And thanks, Oscar, for your research into the color of ice - that was interesting; I had no idea the sun broke up in ice in that fashion - blue light has more energy than other colors in the rainbow, enough energy to escape the ice, you said. I hadn't even thought of colors having energy before!! Can't wait to use that in some future conversation - betcha I'll wow folks with my newfound knowledge, now I just have to bring up ice somehow…hmm…maybe this winter? …. Haha

Yes, Marjorie I did make a mistake in the dates. SORRY! IT IS SUNDAY we start on Chapter Five which will give Maggie more time to catch up with us.

Happy, thank you so much for your comments. I appreciate your opinion, everyone's opinion and views, but when you said "I still feel that Dr. J. exposed her personal life as her only means of communicating with her children and telling them how she saw the breakup of the marriage I must add one remark to that in defense of my opinion heretofore stated about this author.

Dr. J. went to the S. Pole in October of 1998, she published this book this (2001) year which means that there were approximately 2 years between her dramatic adventure and this book. Actually, somewhere she said she wrote this book a year after her rescue from the Pole. Not too much time for her children to grow up or her husband to feel differently toward her or vice versa. Yet on pg. 101 (two pages into Chapter Five which is ahead of schedule, error on my part, sorry) she has this to say:

"The last thing I wanted was publicity back in Ohio, knowing it would incite my ex-husband's jealousy. He had always been resentful of any attention I received, and when he was angry with me, he took it out on the children. I had made the decision long ago that flying below the radar, trying to be invisible, or at least to be a moving target, was the only way to escape his rage."

What changed the lady's mind? The publication of this book approximately 2 years later is not "trying to be invisible" is it? Isn't she inciting her husband's rage here in which he might abuse the children? That is what she has written over and over that he does when he gets angry.

I'm running this into the ground, I know, (Oscar is probably grinding his teeth right now with disgust) and I must seem very coldhearted and unsympathetic to many of you, but there are too many inconsistencies in the author's statements to ignore. I promise that is the last comment I will make on the subject as this book has many fascinating subjects for our conversation here. IT'S A PROMISE!

We all come from varying backgrounds which impact upon our viewpoints, but at the same time make for an intriguing discussion. I truly look forward to coming here every morning and sometimes more than that, just to read all you have to say (I'll never get my housework done this way) but I love it! Please continue posting.

In the 9/10/01 TIME Magazine there was a short blurb at the bottom of one of the pages on explorers in the Antarctica, called the Magellan Index. they gave a brief synopsis on Norweigian Roald Amundsen , who beat Scott, by one month, to the pole in 1911. In 1979 a British historian uncovered Scott's ineptitude with animals and the cold. A Dr. Susan Solomon attempted to redeem Scott's reputation, blaming his misfortune on an unusually harsh Antarctic autumn. Finally, coming to London next month is a play entitle Antarctica. It is about six men who split from Scott's party and returned home. The gist of this brief synopsis was that Explorers's reputation are notoriously volatile things. But no one has had quite the rep as Scott. Our Dr. J. seems to have fallen into this notorious category with us, hasn't she?

Good morning, Alf! Please stick around, we are going to be needing your opinion soon. But thanks for that information - "notorious?"

Yes! Notorious Dr. J. Many of us (including myself) have deemed her dishonorable and shameful because of her overt choice to "go to the ice" and leave her family.

I'm right here, following along and enjoying everyone's incredible thoughts.

Well, as Alf points out, there's one thing we CAN agree upon for sure. Dr. J. certainly arouses a strong range of emotions from most of us!

Part of the fun in book discussions lies in how much we care about the books, and about each others opinion also. That makes this a VERY enjoyable discussion!

Harriet

DIANE: I will remember to update my virus checker and I am glad you finally got your computer stuff settled. I don't remember any mention of the trip from home to the Pole either. I believe we were all caught up in a discussion of her choices in her personal life. I was bored by the trip to the Pole too.

ALF: Thanks for the information about Scott and the play coming to London. When the media grabs hold of something, you can find it all around it would seem. If Dr. Jerri had never gotten cancer, I doubt that many of us would have heard of her. Now there is a lot of talk about Antarctia and its explorers in addition to the talk about Dr. Jerri.

Ella - In response to your question about the 'change of mind' by Dr. Jerri, I think the two years+ period beyond her actual start on the ice probably allowed her to think beyond those initial self-imposed constraints. Further, who knows what any one of us might do had we been faced with probable death at such a young age. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that she began to think of this book when she realized she had CA and might not survive.

Noting that most of the discussion here dwells on judgement of Dr. Jerri's choices, I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on the author and how she told Dr. Jerri's story. Personally, I haven't read beyond Chapter 5 and have yet to form my opinion. I will say that I don't find it to be 'page-turner'; perhaps that will change as the story unfolds.

I'm off to read some more. Enjoy the weekend.

Maggie

My comment on the discussing of her personal life and if it's any of our business. I think we do have a right to discuss her personal life and the choices she made when she's written about it for all to read, when she's appeared on tv shows to promote this book, when she's done extensive interviews to promote the sale of this book. We are talking about someone who has chosen to make these details known...and so it is, I think, a legitimate topic of discussion. This is not an "unauthorized" biography; this is not digging into the personal life that someone has asked to remain private. This is discussing the personal life of someone who's worked at making it public and has told these facts herself.

Maggie: a good question...I don't know how we know what's Nielsen's and what's Vollers...but I'm assuming Nielsen would stand behind every word that was written here. I don't recall ever hearing if Nielsen dictated her biography and Vollers did the editing or if they wrote it together...or how that all worked. Maybe somebody else here will recall or has heard.

š jane›

Jane - My comment about discussing Dr. Jerri's personal choices and whether they should be discussed had more to do with whether or not that is the purpose of this discussion than it did with 'our rights.' I agree with all you said.

Maggie

As the book unfolded, I felt there was much more to it than Dr. J's marriage disaster or even her dramatic health and rescue situation. I won't say more but stick with it - I think you'll be glad you did.

Ah, Maggie, thanks for the clarification.

I guess I see the book as a total unit..that everything she talks about her own behavior/personality is a part of "who she is" and that influences how she reacts/behaves in various situations. Perhaps others don't feel that way.

I said in an earlier post that Ice Bound is not a page-turner. I've changed my tune since I have now read through Chapter 10!

I do think the author did a good job of setting the stage for the reader; for example:

<italics>"I knew that it was not my children's decision to hurt me. I had been unable to defy my ex-husband when I was living with him, and I was an adult. How could I expect any more of them? My children were the most important thing in my life and always would be. But I knew I couldn't let him use them to keep punishing me, even if it meant not seeing them for a long, long time."</italics>

If I had not known this I might have thought her an uncaring, unfeeling egocentric woman who put herself first - always! Yet, she appears to have thought only of her children and their future.

How Dr. Jerri began her 'of the ice' adventure was well told, I thought. She literally tore herself away from her family and seriously-ill father. Without the details of that difficult period we might have misjudged her.

Looking forward to discussing Chapters 4-8.

Maggie

Can someone tell me why my attempt to have one paragraph italicized failed? Can you tell I'm new at this? LOL!

Maggie

Maggie: email on the way explaining Italics coding.

Maggie, just use <I> to start the italics and </I> to end it rather than the word.

Jane and Andrea, thanks so much. I've got a lot to learn. I finished reading Ice Bound. WOW! I'm so glad I found this discussion and that this was the book you had chosen. I find myself wondering how Dr. Jerri is at this very moment and if anything has changed regarding her relationship with her children.

Maggie

Last I heard, nothing had changed.

It is a new beginning in the book - a Sunday, and Chapters 5 through 8 and we are "Going Polar!"

Have you ever been so dirty that you "desquamate?" I looked up the word ---- "to shed, peel or scale off." Your clothing is foul, you are foul, you stink, are you ready to go Polar for a year? Haha

I still wonder about those folks in the gallery whose picture is in the heading - the South Pole website - who were dressed rather casually I thought, - that could, of course, been summer there when it is not so cold.

And I do hope our nurses come back in here, perhaps they can tell us what nurses are paid presently? Workload? Conditions in the hospital? Because Dr. J. tells us how indispensaable they are; she has forgotten how to run an IV pump and where to give shots without causing damage? Now, if we just had a physician here to compare Dr. J.'s skills with others, but a doctor who does not know how to give a shot without causing damage is scary or not? What do you think? Has your doctor ever given you a shot or do you go to his nurse? At my doctor's office nurses do most of that, but I always thought the doctor would know how? Maybe not.

But I do agree with Dr. J. and many of your comments that practicing medicine on the ice would induce terror in many physicians and it would take courage to go it alone, to be a BE-ALL to those at the Pole and to have 8 months where you could absolutely get no other help from the outside.

Dr. Jerry had possum fur - oh, possums are ugly creatures. I'm listening to Jimmy Carter's book on tape about his boyhood and they ate everything they could catch during the depression, but his father set live traps for possums and fed them out for a week before they ate them because they are such scavengers. He said his mother used to stuff them and they were delicious. What we have missed by living in more prosperous times!

Isolation - Dr. J. talks about the hazards and advantages to a closely-knit group that are isolated together. What is your take on that? I'm trying to think where else this might occur? The service in time of war?

Did you read that the Russians stay on their station, Vostock, for TWO YEARS? And this station is in worse shape than the American one. They went crazy and wild - hahaha - wouldn't you? Or would I come out of there like a grouchy old hibernated bear that is angry and sullen because he has been awoken? Or like a haggard worn-out broomstick? I'll never know.

I thought you might like to read some of Robert Service's poems that the fellows liked to quote at the South Pole. Here they are:

Poems of Robert Service

Ella, not being able to get help from the outside is what scares me. Knowing the last plane has left would leave me a little bit spooked, and I would not have been in the mood to look at the movie the group picked.

What was it? Oh, 'The Thing from Another World.' Dr. J says its about "an isolated polar research station that, just as winter begins, is invaded by an evil creature from outer space."

Thank you for the Robert Service Link. I did think their poetry night was fun. That would have been a fun night. Dr. J calls these readings "poetry slams at the South Pole."

Would any of our nurses please tell me how Doctors serve Nurses? Dr. J says ... how incomplete a doctor is without a nurse, and why our professions developed in parallel, to serve each other. I understand about Nurses serving Doctors -- what about the other way around?

ELLA: I remember that part about how long the Russians stayed on their very poorly equipped station. I was appalled. I would hate to meet one of them when they left the station.

HATS: I wonder if the interest in watching "The Thing From Another World" is any clue that these people are all adventurers. I certainly would not be interested in that movie and, as you, would feel "spooked" when the Station was closed for the winter. Working there takes a special kind of person for sure.

MAGGIE: I can't imagine what would have been going through everyone's mind when it looked like they didn't have enough fuel. What good are construction materials if there isn't enough fuel to keep people alive and functioning all winter. Where were the priorities of the people in charge? I know, I know, they finally did get the fuel they needed. Not having enough just put extra stress on the people wintering at the Pole. Was that necessary?

Dr. Jerri was disappointed that all of her friends had already gone on R&R when it was her turn. She was delighted with the plane ride that Big John arranged for her to McMurdo. Being in the cockpit when the plane flew into a canyon delighted her.

Marjorie

http://www.weatherunderground.com/

While checking out your local weather, you might find it interesting to check that of Antarctica. Just scroll down to International sites. But remember, it's getting close to summer, so it's warming up there now -- like -81F.

Hahahaha. Doctors serve nurses??? I don't think so! I agree that a MD is incomplete without a nurse but that is because we do a great deal of their bidding. I will be back tomorrow to respond to your posts, but tonight my "duties" call. Teeeheheheh, doctors serving nurses! Can anyone give ME an example of that one? I can not for the life of me ever imagine one time that a doctor served me, except --- well let us not go there! Chuckles!!

PEDLN: Thanks for the link to the weather site. There was nothing in the book that mentioned the weather in the summertime in Antarctica. The only thing that was mentioned about the weather is the cold. That map was definitely surprising.

ALF: I am glad I made you laugh. Laughter is good for you as I am sure you know.

Does anyone know how I could find out what time of day in Northern California would be when the sun is 23 degrees over the horizon? The book says that that is the highest the sun gets in the sky at the Pole, even in the summer. I wonder how much light there would be when the sun is in that position.

Marjorie

Do you like the titles for the chapters in this book? Some are better than others, the one she took from the Yeats poem "An Irish Airman Foresees His Dealth" is prophetic, you just know this is going to be the chapter in which the cancer story is told, or at least begins. We all knew before reading the book what it was about didn't we? So we are wondering when it begins - good title, good poem.

Pedln- thanks for the map - looks like they are about -80F? Somewhere in there - getting warm? Hahaha

Yes, WE all want to hear more about the nurse and doctor relationship, ALF, because Dr. J. says they "serve each other." What does she mean? Clue us in

As if there weren't enough worries before the doors were closed for the winter, the fuel shortage for one, our Dr. J. is very worried about the lack of contraceptives. Wouldn't that have been something single (or married?) people would have brought along themselves just for an occasion if their minds were running in that direction? It certainly worried her and, no doubt, it would have the pregnant woman (haha)- can you imagine having a worry like that - that would certainly dampen one's libido wouldn't you think?

Were you surprised about the smoking and drinking that went on in today's atmosphere? It was their home, of course, and I think they were just allowed to smoke in the bar area, am I right, but still it was a concern to have enough cigarettes to last the winter months.

I love a sense of humor, wish I had one! On pg. 127 James Evans (Pic) is very funny in his email about WOOD - it comes from trees, he says, and unfortunately, he couldn't point out a tree within sight! " Wood comes from forests," he says, " stryofoam comes from hell." Hahaha

Can they recycle stryofoam into anything? I would hope so as there is so much of it any more and plastic also.

Can you remember the first plastic-like material you ever saw? What would it be?

Pic Evans job at the Pole was "Environmental Specialist" or as he preferred to call it a garbageman. Wasn't he an interesting fellow? For those who might be lurking I'm going to quote one paragraph about Pic (love their nicknames). I think he and BiG would have been delightful fellows to know:

"Comfort bores me," he told me. "Rich people bore me; it's the poor people who make my day." He was the quintessential Polie. He never took a job for the money. The harder the work, the worse the conditions, the better he liked it. In his previous life, he had been an Eagle Scout and a U.S.Marine. But he was no saint and he wanted everyone to know it. "Gandhi I ain't," he said. He had been an alcoholic, and he avoided parties at the Pole to maintain his hard-won eight years of sobriety. Pic now lived a solitary life, reading and practicing yoga and being our conscience of trash.

Some eccentric people are there at the Pole, but they would have to be different somewhat, how many people do you know that could leave their everyday lives and family, etc. and run off to a place like that for a year? Do you know of one?

I'm sure we have all in our lifetimes known eccentric people and there seem to be a number of them at the Pole - my most memorable "eccentric" was a lady who lived across the street from us when I was a little girl. There had been a tragedy in her family, my memory is vague about it as it happened before I was born, I think her husband and son were killed by a theatre fire in Chicago or something like that, and she lived alone and never went anyplace, had her groceries delivered. But every once inawhile she would wrap herself up in sheets - several of them around her body and her shoulders - tie a rope around them and in her slippers with high heels and the posture of a queen, head held very high and back straight for an older woman, she would sort of dance-a-little-dance step over to my grandmother's house to visit. She was beautiful and had a delightful laugh and she would sit in the kitchen and drink coffee and smoke and laugh at my grandmother who was a dyed-in-the-wool Nazarene, the strict religious type who would preach at anyone and call everyone a sinner, etc., but those two understood and enjoyed each other.

But I'm boring you. Here are a few sites I found on the web while I was searching for those white-blooded fish that have antifreeze in their systems (fascinating isn't that?):

Wonderful site about polar ice: http://www.glacier.rice.edu/invitation/1_introduction.html - didn't know that Antarctica holds 70% of Earth's freshwater, (nice to know we have some extra on hand if we ever run out, someday we may have to go chipping at it and bringing it out in buckets when the energy supply runs out or our consumption of fresh water has run the wells dry) - that seal is looking straight at me and I wanta say "Go way, I don't know you!"

Beautiful photos on that site - did you see the one of the Dry Valleys - they have no ice on them and there are experiments being conducted. Gorgeous! Click on all of them, I certainly see the blue ice now! "The thick continental ice sheets of Antarctica hold about eight times more ice than does the Arctic region.

Do take time to click on those PICTURES - they take a few minutes to come in but are beautiful and a few of them are of the DOME and Amundsen-Scott station. What scenery!

Want to learn more? http://www.globalclassroom.org/antarct6.html

Finally, I found a source that explains a little of the "ice fish" as they are called: http://octopus.gma.org/surfing/antarctica/salt.html

Back later with more of the book - are you enjoying the visit to the Pole? Want a nice hot bath tub about now or would you rather use the water to wash your filthy clothing in? Hahaha

Ella, you took the words out of my mouth. I just read what James wrote about the recycling of wood, and I just cracked up. I literally laughed out loud. How funnnny!

I know I haven't been feeling well for a few weeks and have missed tons of sleep, and therefore can miss something obvious right in front of my face, and sound snippy in the process, but I keep thinking, Ella, did we read the same book? In your last post, you wondered if any of us know any eccentrics who might "run off to" Antartica and leave their families. These are all scientists, experts in their fields, who most likely competed in a lengthy weeding-out process for their jobs. I imagine that some of the studies would be similar to those conducted in space and in deep water oceans, as well as weather and ozone studies. They would all have to be hardy individuals, not unlike deep-water scientists or astronauts....able to work under unusual conditions. But I just feel lost and don't understand the "run off to" question. Are you letting Dr. J off the hook and saying that none of them should be out there away from families? Or do you have doubts about the science? I just don't understand. Or, am I completely misreading you?

The only thing that comes to mind on the doctors and nurses serving each other is that it would be in the best interest of the patient and the nurse if they worked more like a team...with the doctor giving clear and thorough instructions, taking time to write legible notes in the charts, is clear about accessibility (here are my three phone numbers and a set of rules to follow if you absolutely need to reach me), has teaching as a goal some of the time instead of staying silent, gives positive feedback when it is deserved, acknowledges years of experience, welcomes suggestions.

Betty, I understand what you are saying, but I think you are mis-reading my comments. Many of these people, the cooks, the mechanics, the electricians, the plumbers, computer techs, construction people, the doc, the carpenters are NOT SCIENTISTS. They are there to SUPPORT THE SCIENTISTS. They are very necessary to the Pole, and, of course, must know their job and be qualified but I doubt if they are have to go through the same rigorous procedure as the scientists.

I will go back to the book and count the scientist that are there, but I think you will find they are few in number compared to all the support personnel. Think about it.

Of the 33 people that the author lists of the winterover crew that were there at the same time as she was, only 8 were scientists - 2 physicists, 3 NOAA personnel, 1 meterologist and 2 astronomers.

The remaining 25 were support personnel and my reference was to some of those who were "eccentric" as you must admit if you read the same book.

Hi MaryPage! You are, without a doubt, correct - the words "run off" was a poor phrase to use for such a challenge.. A "venture to" would have been better words to have used; often my fingers go faster than my brain, if I have a brain that is, I've often wished for a better one but must make do with the one I have.

Did either you or Betty look at those beautiful pictures of Antarctica and see the ones of the Dome? Spectacular photography!

Yes, I did, Ella!! Incredible photos! The beauty of the place was probably another payoff for being there. I'm thinking of people who climb mountains and get to see what most of us will never see first hand and, maybe, if my metaphor holds, are those who try to explain to the rest of us why they climb up there!!

I, too, had used the word "eccentric" in my posts and do think of these people as unusual. Now that I'm thinking about that word, I always meant eccentric almost as a compliment or with a positive connotation. Chances are, the group was a mixture of types, just as any group would be, although the author herself spoke of the smaller group that wintered over (winter as a verb, hmmm) as the purest polies or adventurers.

Ella, those photos were absolutely gorgeous. Thank you so much for finding them and providing the links.

I'm confused about certain definitions. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think I hear a tacit proposition implied in this discussion. Are we saying that there are two categories of people wintering on the ice: scientists, from whom we expect conforming, social behavior...and non-scientific support personnel whom we permit to be just as interesting and non-conforming as they wish?

Actually I felt there were three categories of people wintering at the Pole. In addition to the scientists and people like cooks or carpenters there were electronic engineers, science technicians, and at least one senior computer technician. If I count up all the people who would have had to have highly advanced educational credentials, I get quite a few more than just eight. Even the Winter Site Manager, Mike Masterson, radio electronics engineer and administrator extraordinaire surely must also be counted as a brilliant and oddball type as he copes with his atypical community of Polies. So does our Dr. Jerri, who never appeared on her own winterover list. Also, according to the Who's Who roster of the winterover crew at the front of the book there were eight people whose names were not included in this list at their own request, and so we have no way of knowing what their credentials were.

I figure all three categories had to be super-bright, adventurous and tremendously knowledgeable in whatever field they worked because, with no outside help during the winterover, the buck stopped with them! Even the cooks did a marathon job of creating inventive and varied meals with the limited resources available to them. Everybody had to be gluttons for cooperative work. And most of them, regardless of their category, seemed to be brilliant square pegs. I felt that was the norm. Dr. Jerri says at one point in the book that everyone had their own personal story to tell...and she...the sin eater, delighted in listening.

I think it's a testament to Jerri Nielson's place in the heart of that community that 33 of the 41 members of the winterover crew permitted their names to be used in her book and a heavy number of the summer people likewise cooperated with her account.

Like so many isolated populations, these people created an indigenous lifestyle unique to themselves. I think the wacky things they all did to entertain themselves reflected both the ordinary need to add variety to a constricted environment, and the need to live at the "edge", which seemed to be a common feeling among the Polies.

In chapter 8, page 169. "After months of living this way, a Polie might think she was still an American, but in fact she was now part of a different community, a subset of America with different values."

One question with regard to the use of contraceptives. I wonder, did they have sex before or after their bi-weekly showers?

Harriet

Oh Harriet that is a great question. The answer is DURING! They weren't able to run the water for long.

Harriet - You said 'I think it's a testament to Jerri Nielson's place in the heart of that community that 33 of the 41 members of the winterover crew permitted their names to be used in her book and a heavy number of the summer people likewise cooperated with her account.'

Excellent point! I agree with you. Your entire post was excellent. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Maggie

HARRIET: I definitely agree with your statement that:

I figure all ... had to be super-bright, adventurous and tremendously knowledgeable in whatever field they worked because, with no outside help during the winterover, the buck stopped with them!

I just finished looking at the pictures using the clickable ELLA provided. Thank you so much ELLA. I really enjoyed seeing them and getting a better sense of what the ice looks like and I liked seeing the town of McMurdo from above. The Antarctic is a magnificent place. And I don't want to go there. I am happy with pictures, thank you.

BETTY's post reminded me of the underwater scientists. I have no skill in those areas and I know the quarters are small. However, for some reason going under the sea seems to appeal to me. I don't have any desire to go into space.

There were certainly a number of things people at the South Pole did that came from the experience of the people before them. I am thinking of the flags that were connected by ropes to mark the routes to be used when outside in the winter. Also, the celebrations that were to help make time pass -- both the things planned for particular days (like Science Fiction movies one night a week) and the holiday celebrations. When there is no "day" as we know it those events were certainly a help.

Hi MARY PAGE and MAGGIE. Glad to have you both on board our for our journey. Marjorie

"I found a mass in my breast".

"Lumps run in the family; my mother had the same condition and had even had a couple of biopsies done on benign masses."

"My mammogram had been negative only six months ago, so I wasn't particularly worried."

Should she have been?

How many of us perform the breast exam test? I don't, I have a mammogram once a year and if it's okay I figure what the heck, I'm okay, even though my sister had a mastectomy about 20 years ago. Why do we think it won't happen to us?

Wouldn't you have liked to have known Roo (Roopesh Ojha) one of the astronomers.

….he would tell me tales of India; of mountains and small villages, of rivers where mourners set the dead afloat on brightly decorated rafts. His father had been a Brahmin doctor, and as his son, he seemed to understand me instinctively. Or perhaps it was just his keen sense of perception…..Roo shared his many interests with all of us. He spearheaded a small investment club that disseminated information on high-tech stocks to its members' email accounts. Later, the club became a forum for philosophy and religion.

It was fascinating to follow along as Giant Greg, who spent his days looking for the footprints of the Big Bang, Nuclear Nick, who studied neutrinos in the ice, Loree, a meterorologist who detected the grace and redemption of God in the clouds, and Roo, the star seeker, pounded out detailed arguments on faith vs. science and the existence of God.

I would have loved to have been in their midst.

Dr. Jerri speaks of an "inner journey" and being forced to re-create herself again and again. I think all people do that to some degree in their lifetime, whether it be at the Pole, a soldier at the front in wartime, a fatal illness, we decide, we alone decide, inside, how we are going to face it - we re-create ourselves.

During the days when Dr. Jerri was waiting to see if her lump in the breast would disappear, she was certainly busy, Good Grief! Explosions, emergencies with Wendy and Big John. And she had Big John count down from 100 by sevens? Didn't you love Monica Penguinski? Hahaha Funny, but as Dr. Jerri said in another chapter "There is wisdom in the notion of laughing in the face of danger. It helps people cope.

That is so true!

Big John stayed in the hospital (such as it was) for three days packed in ice to reduce the swelling with an electric blanket over him to keep him warm!!!!!!!! Which would he feel, cold or warm? Hahaha

Later........

ELLA: In answer to your question about breast self-exams, I do not do them. And I certainly should. I had a mastectomy 15 years ago. The cancer was found with a mammogram. I still have the feeling that, as a breast cancer patient who is at higher risk, I should be doing a self-exam regularly. But I don't. My surgeon has told me that mammograms are much more sophisticated that they were 15 years ago and they are finding smaller and smaller tumors now.

Yesterday I was feeling very secure because it was the 15th anniversary of my surgery. Today, with the terrorism on the East Coast, I am feeling very insecure. I hope that the responsibility for this is determined quickly so that action can be taken to stop it from happening again.

My prayers are going to all those who have been victimized by the explosions and the rescue effort.

Marjorie

Thanks, Marjorie, for posting. We are all on an "inner journey" today, this is such an awful time, and I've listened to it all until I got a headache and had to turn the TV off for an hour or so.

And, as you said, our thoughts are all with those who are anxious and waiting to hear whether their loved ones are alive, and then again one can't help wondering who we are at war with.

Someone pointed out that this day is 9/11/01 - which will go down in the history books as one never to be forgotten.

You rely on just a mammogram a year, Marjorie? Have you ever taken estrogen? My sister never had - I know it's controversial. My neighbor of 40 years, a dear friend, had a lumpectomy about 3 years ago, both her mother and father had cancer, and she has never taken estrogen either.

I don't have the heart today to post anything, obviously no one else does either.

Maybe tomorrow.

I just wanted to state how sorry and how sad I feel for every family who have suffered a loss since yesterday. It is indescribable!

Because of the overwhelming news in our nation today and the sorrow we all feel for those who have lost loved ones or who are still awaiting word about their loved ones, we will not post today.

We live about 30 miles outside of NYC in suburban NJ. We count ourselves as fortunate beyond belief that all is well with those we love and my heart and thoughts are with those who have suffered losses.

A friend of my son went to work in NYC a short distance from the terrorist attacks yesterday. For a few hours, he was missing. His mother was calling frantically everywhere in hopes of hearing about his safety. Last night we finally heard his story.

He arrived at work just as his office building was being evacuated. He told us that all means of transportation into and out of New York had been closed off. Phones were not connecting except to give a recorded message that all circuits were busy. The police kept everyone moving on so that rescue efforts would not be impaired.

He started walking northward, away from NYC. He made it all the way to Yonkers before he could find both an open circuit to phone home, and a location where his parents could pick him up by car without being turned away from the city area by police. A happy ending to this story!

I wish all of the NYC stories had the same happy ending. The catastrophic nature of this is so unreal to me that it seems like a nightmare. My thoughts and deepest sympathy goes out to those who are suffering losses and the terror of waiting to hear about loved ones. I wish a quick recovery to those hurt in these vicious attacks.

Harriet

The TV newscasts made it abundantly clear that all air traffic was closed on the night after the terrorist attacks. In the middle of that night I woke up to the extremely loud noise of a plane flying low and fast overhead. I'm no heroine and I was plenty scared. I waited...the noise diminished...no kerBOOM!

We turned on the TV news. It seems that we now have an aircraft carrier off New York Harbor. What I heard was an American fighter jet flying protectively overhead, combat ready.

It's a war zone. Incredible!

Harriet

PS: Any further posts will be discussion related, I promise.

Perhaps we should return to our normal life, which includes discussing our book, and I'm hoping all of you feel the same way? I cannot devote my life to television and those horrible pictures for hours on end - it's not healthy for any of us to do so and the extreme emotions one feels from crying at times and being angered at others just "undo" me - I can't think of another word! I get headaches from it, and I rarely get headaches, so I am determined to limit my concentration on the horrific news and get back to a regular routine.

We left Dr. Jerri, I believe, at the beginning of winter at the South Pole and it was not an auspicious beginning - ice cracking, the building settling, loud booms, cracks in the ice forming! What was very interesting, I thought, was:

With little humidity at the South Pole, the static electricity problem was awesome. The computer techs had to discharge the static before they touched their keyboards and blew out their circuits. You could light a whole room by rubbing a stuffed animal until it glowed, …….One night Dar, the meterologist, got into bed too fast and set off a fire alarm at 3:00 a..m.

You wouldn't lack for excitement there would you? If you're bored with life, go to the South Pole!! Haha

What did you think of that expedition they took to the downed Hercules aircraft that was buried in snow at the end of the skiway? And their other expedition to the station built in the 1950's by the Seabees and abandoned in 1975. Reminds me somewhat of a couple of expeditions my family and I took years ago when we went caving - most frightening thing I've ever done (spent the night and two days in an underground cave). We were members of AYH - and we did all sort of things with the group, when we were younger and more adventurous. Here's what the Polies did:

We were organized in teams of four that were checked in and out for safety by a special designated safety team. Each person carried at least three flashlights, as batteries died quickly in the brutal cold and there was no natural light. The manhole cover opened up to a small vertical tube ten feet deep in the ice. We descended by ladder to a long, sloping tunnel marked with a rope to pull oneself along, in the dark, to the main part of the station. This fit my personal definition of claustrophobia..

My first thought was YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THIS. My next thought was OF COURSE YOU DO!

Haven't we all experienced that? When you're safe at home, you wish you were having an adventure; when you're having an adventure, you wish you were safe at home.

And Dr. Jerri learned how to back up and park a tractor, helped tear out the axles of a bulldozer and she rebuilt a cupboard by herself! I could do all that if I had to, couldn't you?

I will be gone from early Friday through Sunday, but Marjorie will be here and very capably will be guiding the discussion through the end of this week's chapters. She certainly knows about breast cancer first hand and can tell you her experiences with this dreaded disease from the first moment until the mastectomy. I know there must be others of you who have gone through the same experience and please let us hear from you. We are here to share our concerns with each other and our interest in this book.

Hello Harriet:

We saw pictures of an aircraft carrier on the east coast near Washington and New York - that's an amazing sight when we have to protect our own shores isn't it? And our own aircraft from our enemies - it was our own airplanes they used to attack us. Incredible!

Good morning Ella and All,

I wondered how Dr J could handle her approaching health problems without completely losing control, but she says her worse loss was the loss of her children, anything else seemed slightly less painful. How interesting that one trauma can make us stronger to deal with another loss.

"Strangely, thinking about the possibility of dying didn't bother me that much. I had already lived through one of the worst catastrophes a mother could endure. Death didn't seem nearly as terrible as losing my children."

Harriet and all of you who live in New York and Washington, well, if it helps, everyone around the world is thinking about you.

I think Dr J got a chance to see an aurora borealis. I have heard that those are very beautiful. I can never understand exactly it. Is it like a sunset?

Not at all like a sunset. Nor a sunrise.

Imagine full night. Okay, you are looking at the sky. Suddenly there are waving sheets of light. It is as though an invisible woman is unrolling a very huge bolt of very shiny cloth. Make it a Thai silk cloth of many colors. Mostly just light, but also blues, reds and greens. It is going up and down in the air as she is unrolling the bolt.

Closest I can get. Anyone?

MaryPage, I can just about picture it. Your description really makes me want to see one.

MARY PAGE: You make the aurora borealis very real. Wonderful description. Thanks.

ELLA: I don't remember that descripton of the lack of humidity and what it can do. Thanks for the quote. I remember that passage of going down the tunnel in the dark. I admire her courage to do that. Not that she really had anywhere else to go by the time she got that far.

HARRIET: I am glad that we don't have planes flying overhead here. I imagine they might be in San Francisco, but I haven't heard any here.

HATS: One thing I remember about my breast cancer, which was found on a mammogram, is that I just put one foot in front of the other and took care of what was right in front of me. I can't imagine what I would have done if I had found the lump first and "watched" it grow and then been isolated as Dr. Jerri was. A much scarier thing to go through.

Marjorie

Marjorie, I think your experience was just as frightening. There is no comparison. Each experience is frightening, and you were just as brave as Dr. J.

Ella, enjoy your weekend. We'll all miss you.

Harriet

MaryPage, PBS produces a series of TV shows called The Living Edens. Periodically they photograph locations throughout the world that are particularly beautiful. When they did an hour on Denali Park in Alaska they televised the aurora borealis in the night sky. Your description was so perfect that it gave me the shivers. Thanks for that imaginative and extraordinarily lovely visual image.

Marjorie, I haven't been doing breast self examinations either because I'm so afraid of finding trouble. Many years ago I found a breast lump while I was in the shower. Since I was just about due for my menses, like Dr. Jerri, I decided to wait a week or so to see if it would dissolve on its own after my period ended. It did...and I was very lucky.

What I remember most about the experience was the feeling that the pattern of my normal life was on borrowed time. I was keenly aware of how my life would change if the lump was still in place after another week. The simple things of daily life took on added color and texture while I waited to see what would happen. I felt such an affection for the people and things in my usual routines and I was so very afraid of the unknown. Every day I kept waiting just one more day before I rechecked my breast...so I could hang on to everything that was familiar and dear to me just a little bit longer.

I certainly admire your courage, Marjorie, and I agree with Hats. It takes a hero to put one foot in front of the other and do the things that must be done. You ARE brave. Please don't underestimate the courage it takes to accept a diagnosis and move onward with difficult treatments.

I empathized with Dr, Jerri's reaction to her lump. Her stakes were literally double or nothing. She found that lump in the final weeks before the station was due to close for winter. If she revealed her condition immediately, she probably would have been recalled and replaced as a precautionary measure. She would lose all of her dear, familiar life and return to the real world with all of its problems even if the lump later dissolved.

If she kept quiet and it later turned out that she had misdiagnosed the harmlessness of that lump, she might die and, in so doing, leave the station without a doctor. It was the second possibility that troubled her the most. Based on her past personal experiences with her breast lumps she decided to take that chance. I understand and sympathize with that decision, but I can't yet figure out if I feel it was the right one.

Her feelings about her own life and death at that time were summed up in the final lines of the poem by Yeats about the Irish aviator in Chapter 6.

I balanced all, brought all to mind.
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind,
In balance with this life, this death.

Harriet

Thank you HARRIET and HATS for your nice words about my experience. I find it difficult to reply to compliments.

I found a couple of passages in the book last night that were interesting to me:

Tom Miller ... was one of the most solid members of the crew. This was his third season on the Ice, and his first winter. ... Like quite a few others, he was in contact with a grade-school class back in the States and had pictures of them in his office.

What a wonderful chance for the school children to learn in depth about Antarctica. That was something that wasn't available when I was in school. I would like to read some of the things the school children asked about.

Their first winter power-failure drill was a close call, but everyone had done his job well and disaster had been averted. The head exchanger had sprung a leak and glycol was escaping. One thing about the Pole is the teamwork. Everyone had their job to do and did their job. There was little to no backup in personel or systems.

Marjorie

Good morning everyone!

Had a wonderful weekend - almost, but never truly, forgot the horrors of last Tuesday, as it was on everyone's mind and flags were flying at half mast where we traveled and we saw new bumper stickers, and now, of course, I have forgotten the one that was "unforgettable."

Trust me to do that!

Today we start Chapters 9-12 and I hope ALL OF YOU will stay with us through to the end of the book. WE NEED TO REST OUR MINDS, I feel, for a little while from TV - and books and discussions about books are the best way to do that.

I haven't reviewed these chapters yet and will do so today and get back with comments; however, I had bookmarked with a posit note this poem on pg. 165 (from a medieval Persian) that Dr. Jerri tacked on her wall at the Pole. I loved it and am going to quote it here!

If of thy mortal goods thou art bereft
And from thy slender store two loaves alone to thee are left,
Sell one and with the dole,
Buy hyacinths to feed thy soul.

Beauty can feed the soul.

After the death of my precious son in an accident, who was 18 years of age, I remember staring over and over again at some red flowers out of a window (I cannot remember what kind of flowers they were - only red) but they were somehow comforting - I'm not eloquent enough to express what they meant to me, other than they brought comfort perhaps in their beauty and thoughts of God and love. I keep this beside me always: "Life is eternal; and love is immortal; and death is only a horizon; and a horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight."

And like Marjorie, I'm not very good at handling personal matters such as grief in a conversation or in print, but the beauty of a simple thing like a flower, does help in times such as these that our nation has been dealing with since last Tuesday.

Will be back later today........

Welcome back ELLA. I haven't reviewed Chapters 9-12 either. In fact, I never finished reviewing Chapters 5-8.

I just found this at the end of Chapter 8 that may be one way to describe some of the feelings I have been having since Tuesday's tragedy.

In Dr. Jerri's letter to Big John at the end of Chapter 8:

I know you think it is amusing how I get alarmed sitting in the dark, losing heat in Antarctica. Especially when I am told that there is a serious problem with the power plant and that we don't have any idea what is causing it. And by the way, supper has been canceled. And take a flashlight when you go out because the Dome if full of smoke.

For you it is no big deal because you know that YOU will figure out what is wrong (or die trying). I understand that, as I have no fear when I am in charge.

Dr. Jerri proceeds to describe a medical situation where Big John is in trouble and she tells him not to worry because they haven't tried everything yet.

I am sure there is something later in the book about how this power plant problem was solved but the next chapter starts on something completely different.

Marjorie

Marjorie: It's interesting she tells "him not to worry because they haven't tried everything yet," and yet she apparently never really believes that for she does not apply it to her own situation. She seems to deviate from the attitude of honesty that most doctors I've had contact with had---or else she's unable to do that when she is the patient. I don't know which it is.

Is anyone else bothered by the constant use of "conversation"...and how does she remember these....or is she inventing it and the emphasis for her own purposes?

Good point, Jane - I hadn't thought of the "conversations" that she relates, but I had thought of all these emails. Of course, her parents probably saved the ones she sent to them, but how did she get copies of all the others, those she sent and all the ones sent to her? I would imagine she was too concerned at the time to print all out her emails wouldn't you? And the next team coming in certainly would not have saved them - you must delete emails now and then or the system get clogged up doesn't it? Was she thinking of a book even then and printing out her emails? She does talk about the media getting hold of her story, so she's aware of "publicity."

Maybe it is just me - after about a month of emails I delete most of them and start anew, how about the rest of you?

I don't understand this "sea change" that occurs and being "OF" something - "of the Sierras" - "of the ice" - "of the heat" - do any of you?

I delete my e-mails every day.

Ella and Jane -- I see some humor in Dr J's statement to Big --"don't worry, we haven't tried everything yet." I don't see honesty as an issue here. They had more than just a doctor/patient relationship -- They were close friends who might joke with each other even in the more dire situations.

Regarding the "conversations". My guess is that Dr. J kept notes, a journal, what have you, in addition to her emails. Her family certainly would have saved her emails. (When my daughter was working in Guatemala I saved all of hers -- in triplicate.) She herself could have forwarded her non-family messages to her family to be saved. Just a guess.

The primitiveness of this procedure really hit home. I had a core needle biopsy about 3 threes ago -- all fine, but oh my the technology. The special measureing devices to locate the exact spot, the special table, the expertise of the doctor who specialized in breast care, and his specially trained nurse assistant.

That this was to be done by people who practiced on apples, etc. is beyond imagination.

What blew my mind here was her statement that she couldn't take anything because it is illegal to prescribe for yourself. Who would care?

I wonder if part of the reason she didn't take painkillers was so that she would be alert (if she can be alert with the pain) to help with the procedure? I know that wasn't what she said the reason was. If being alert was not part of the reason, then I certainly agree with MARY PAGE about the painkillers. She doesn't seem to follow all the rules all the time anyway.

Hi JANE and PEDLN. It feels good to me to get back to a conversation here. I have missed this discussion.

I'm glad to get back to our discussion also. Apparently, I was so wrapped up in following the latest news reports that I didn't realize I never checked my subscriptions yesterday. That's an astonishing oversight for me since I really love Senior Net and these discussions.

I agree that our book talk is a healthy refuge from an often tragic and stressful world. I'll be back after I review the next few chapters.

Harriet

Pedlin, that certainly could be true, I hadn't thought of Dr. Jerri keeping a journal; however, if she did why didn't she say so?

Have you ever wondered about all these very busy people, such as presidents, keeping journals so that they can write a book afterwards and make a million or ten million (and you all know whom I'm referring to).

And as both you and MaryPage stated, I thought it a ridiculous statement for her to say that she could not ethically give herself painkillers. For heavens sake! They are at the South Pole, no other medical personnel around to give them, to help her, to care whether she does or doesn't; in fact, I'm sure most of them wished she would do so. As friends, they would want her to be comfortable.

We can all relate to this paragraph:

Lisa, in particular, seemed to believe that a positive attitude was essential to recovery, as if you will your illness away. I disagreed, since I had seen so much untreatable disease and death, and I thought it put unfair pressure on an ill person to take responsibility for a cure when none was possible. Still, there was nothing I could do to convince my dear, well-meaning friends that, just this once, I needed permission to be sad.

Many questions come to mind about a "positive attitude" toward ill health; many doctors believe in it. What do you think?

Personally, when I am ill, I want to be left alone to feel ill and be cranky. I don't want to be cheerful or positive, I'm sick, go away!

Harriet, good to have you back!

I always save real letters that I get in my email under a category of Saved Mail. I tend to clear out the rest of my joke-based and casual mail every few weeks, so I always have quite a few items collected at any one time.

I agree with pedln that Dr. J's family probably would have tended to keep her emails and she would likewise have evolved some sort of system for retaining theirs. Once she became ill, both Jerri and her family would surely have wanted to hang on to their mutual correspondences even more, particularly since so many of their letters carried affectionate and supportive sentiments.

Perhaps the emails that passed between Jerri and her doctor, Kathy, would have constituted a kind of medical record as time went on. All parties involved might find it useful to retain these.

When the press began to get interested in her problems, survival would dictate that Dr. Jerri keep track of what was being said about her, and by who. In chapter 11, she writes: "Sure enough, my ex-husband had surfaced" asking that "all communication regarding Dr. Nielson go directly through him....I heard through my family that he was telling reporters I really didn't have cancer, that I was making it up to attract attention....Although reporters apparently didn't find him sufficiently credible to quote directly, they used his statements as a way to to coerce information out of my family and friends." I can't even imagine Jerri's feelings if she felt that this was what her children believed!

Can't figure out the sense of her statements about painkillers during her biopsy at all.

Harriet

I, too, am not sure about the painkillers or the actual amount of pain involved. I recall getting the equivalent of novacaine when I had a mass that needed to be aspirated. It's the localized thing you'd get for a tooth problem and doesn't render you helpless to do other things or think clearly. I'm sure they must have had novacaine available. When she later takes chemo, she's taking a whopping lot more powerful stuff than a shot of novacaine. If she wanted to be so ethically pure, I'm sure one of the offsite docs she was in contact with would have "ordered" the novacaine injection to the biopsy site.

A positive attitude when facing a disease is, I think, a bit different than a positive attitude when having the flu or a bad cold. As miserable as a cold or the flu is, you know you'll eventually get over it. With a potentially life-threatening disease, a positive attitude, I think, emcompases realizing what's what, deciding a course of action, and attemting to do what you can to improve those chances of survival. A negative attitude is one of "oh, well, I'm going to die anyway, so why go to the doc, why take the med, why go for radiation or chemo or whatever." The fact of the matter is we're all going to die someday. The attitude part is, to me, do you want that to happen now...or later?

š jane›

Hi Everyone,

I too missed our conversations. Wow! Learning you have a cancer on the ice must be devastating to the person it is happening to, but what about the "polies?"

How did they feel when they discovered that their only doctor would be incapacitated due to such a serious illness? I know they were probably "prepared" for such an eventuality, but still, I would have felt a little antsy, scared, uneasy, nervous. Well, this is one more reason why I could not travel to a place like Antartica.

Dr J likened this empty place to home. Even with all of her troubles, I can't imagine such a place as being thought of as so welcoming. At least, back in civilization she would be able to visit face to face with her parents.

I need help understanding something. When Dr. Gerry Katz, the doctor in charge of Antarctic medical stations writes, he says Dr. J's matter is urgent, but it "is not a medical emergency."

I must be missing something. I feel like it IS a medical emergency, but of course, I am quick to panic. Why does the doctor say it is not a medical emergency? Hasn't it been established that the mass is not just a cyst? And she is experiencing pain, right?

She's not going to die immediately if nothing is done...not like bleeding to death or going into cardiac arrest, is what I understood him to mean.

Many docs will have patients come back in 3 - 6 months for rechecking before even doing a biopsy! I disagree with that...but it's done.

HATS and JANE: I was incensed when he said "it was not a medical emergency." The only thing I could think is that he was not the one with breast cancer. It might not be an "emergency" here. But at the South Pole and with no way to leave for 4 months, that sounds more like an emergency to me.

I agree with JANE about the need for a positive attitude to be able to do what is necessary to fight the cancer. A good description of the difference between positive and negative attitudes, JANE.

HARRIET: Thanks for quoting that section where her ex-husband tells the press she is faking the cancer. I believe her when she reports that. Imagine the problem the press would be having if Dr. Jerri tries to keep a low profile and he disputes her cancer.

Marjorie

Marjorie

Was just catching up on the posts and I have a question, which may seem stupid and will show what little I know about the dreaded disease of cancer.

In order to determine if the cancer has metatasized, what do they need to do? Take biopsies from multiple sites? Or can they tell from one biopsy?

I do like this doctor Kathy who is emailing don't you? Wouldn't you want to know the blunt truth? It wasn't always like this was it? Doctors used to sort of mumble around the edges until the patient asked for the whole truth and nothing but.

Ella: With breast cancer and with no other known "lumps" or masses, it seems to be standard procedure to examine pathologically the lumph nodes under the arm on the side where the breast cancer is. In some cases they take as many lymph nodes as they can, often/usually when they do the lumpectomy or mastectomy. A newer procedure is to use a dye and take what are called "sentinel nodes"--places where the cancer is most likely to have spread, as I understand it.

In my own case, they took as many lymph nodes as the surgeon could find. This number will vary greatly from patient to patient. They then, in my own situation, did lung xrays,(every three months with a mammogram) and a yearly bone scan (where radioactive material is injected into you) to locate "hot spots." They always ask if you're having any new problems, bone pain, etc. at every three month exam in the early days after surgery, etc.

I was told that the lymph glands nearest the breast cancer site, the lungs and the bones are often the site where the cancer will spread first. They also do blood work, and if the liver enzymes are off, etc. may do a liver scan, etc. If masses are found in those locations, then yes, more biopsies. The surgeons also check carefully the lymph nodes around the neck and throat at every visit as well as those again under the arms. They also check the liver manually as they do during a routine physical for any enlargement, etc.

Perhaps others have had other exams, but this is what was done in my situation.

Re: Doctors mumbling around the truth. Not in my own situation. They are very frank, very blunt on all the details.

JANE: My experience has been the same as yours regarding exams/removal of lymph nodes to determine if the cancer has spread. You explained it very well.

Thanks for the info, Marjorie and Jane.

This remark of Dr. J's (pg.216) seems strange and I wonder how the Polies who read this book think of it - "People I wouldn't talk to in the world, I relish seeing in this place." Why wouldn't she talk to them in the real world?

Furthermore, there is this:

"We come to understand and rely on each other in a way that is not of this century; not of this time. This is how human beings were meant to live, in tribes."

People in the army feel this reliance on each other but they are of this century, of this time. And they can't wait to get back to civilization.

Those of you who have had breast surgery, did you have chemotherapy before surgery? You didn't mention that. As stated in this book by Dr. Kathy, this is new in the last five years. My sister did not, she took tamoxifen for years (I think it was 10 years and then the doctors said she was as safe as she was ever going to be from a recurrence of the cancer) after her mastectomy; about 25 years after the mastectomy she died of a heart condition.

All of us have definite opinions about the subject of her children and we are not going to convince each other of the truth of our viewpoint, because we do not know the truth. Dr. J is withholding something from us in this book. I cannot believe that her husband, the children's father, the abusive father that called them "ignorant" and "stupid" and slammed them against a wall can influence these children to hate their mother (who dearly loves them) to the extent that they cannot go to a pay phone and call her or call their grandmother, or go to a computer (their own or a friend's) and email their mother. Beyond my comprehension!

I apologize for that - I can't help it when the author is constantly bringing up the subject! Don't throw stones - OUCH!!! Haha - that hurt!

We are somewhat like Dr. J. and Dr. Kathy (pg.230) bantering back and forth, hashing out the issues, picking the scenario down to its bones and reinventing it here.

Thanks for all your comments, I love reading them and can't tell you how much I appreciate your posts.

While at Anarctica, Reza learns of his father's death. There is no way to get back to his family. I wonder did he ever regret his decision to go to the South Pole, or for that matter, did Dr. J regret her decision? It's one thing to look at what possibly might happen before it happens, but when it really does happen, it must make a person reconsider their earlier choices.

I suppose these people are just made from a different and stronger fabric. These are the type of people who would travel up Mount Everest or through the rainforest, and we do need these people, the ones who are more daring than ourselves.

Ella: I think the reason Nielsen had the chemo first was that they couldn't do the surgery first in her situation...so they did what they could when they could.

Many people with other cancers--or with very large tumors--will have cancer/radiation or both first to reduce the size of the tumor before surgery...and then may have one or both again after, but it so depends on the location of the tumors, the type(s) of cancer they are, how large the masses are, how accessible they are to surgical removal, etc. That's what I understand from my reading/talking to my doctors, etc.

In my own case, I chose a mastectomy; then I had 6 months of chemo (same "stuff" as Nielsen had on her second "series"...ie, cytoxan, methotrextate, 5-FU--by IV) and then, after two years I asked to be on tamoxifen and was for five years. I was working in a high school at the same time as having the chemo.

No stones from me, Ella...I absolutely agree with you that Nielsen isn't telling us the whole story. In seeing divorces from the outside, if anything children, esp. teens, seem to see the nonresident parent as the "wonderful parent"...the one who'd give them all/let them do whatever they want...and the resident parent as the rulemaker, the "nasty" one...esp. one who has remarried and now there's a "stepmom" on the scene with more rules, etc.

re: People I wouldn't talk to in the world, I relish seeing in this place I don't think DOCTOR N. would consider "socializing" with people whose occupations were "cooks," "carpenters," "mechanics," "electricians." I doubt that her family with brothers who are pilots/own airplanes and owning a construction company and her life as a physician married to a physician ran to "talking" to such ordinary/blue collar folks.

š jane›

JANE: I agree with you about the interpretation of "People I wouldn't talk to in the world, I relish seeing in this place." My immediate interpretation of that was that she had close contact with people she wouldn't have personal contact with in the "real" world. She might treat them as a physician but not have them as friends. She had an opportunity to see how "limited" her life was before in terms of the people she "knew."

ELLA: I did not have any chemotherapy and tamoxifen started being used frequently only when I had 5 years after surgery. I chose not to take it. I made that choice again recently when the surgeon told me I could take it to prevent cancer in the other breast because it was highly unlikely I would have a recurrance at this time.

HATS: I agree with you 100%. "It's one thing to look at what possibly might happen before it happens, but when it really does happen, it must make a person reconsider their earlier choices." My sense is the book is being written as if it is a journal with the thoughts/decisions/feelings being presented were the ones that would have been felt at the time being described.

When Dr. Jerri says in an email to her family

"We are looking down the hill at the other side of winter. ... Dawn ... What a concept. I am so comforted by the dark and by the depth of winter, that I do not look forward to the sun."

I can't imagine being comforted by the dark. No not me. I like the light.

Marjorie

I feel that we DO agree on some points.

I agree that Dr. Jerri is not telling her whole story in many areas and that's why I don't understand everything she says and does. If there are differences among those of us in this discussion, they probably lie in how we would each interpret the gaps in her story. This woman arouses such strong emotions.

Actually, why should she tell everything? Most of us reserve the right to pick and choose among the many available true facts in our lives in order to represent ourselves the way we want to be seen. For me, certain things that Dr. J. says casually in the book, almost throwaway sentences, hold a lot of interest and probably formed my opinion of her.

Several times in the book, Jerri talks about her need to practice "HER kind of medicine" or she characterizes someone else as "HER kind of doctor or nurse." In Chapter 9: "How can I go back to American medicine with its emphasis on 'moving people through'? I had SERIOUS PROBLEMS with that before."

So then, what troubles her about the rest of her medical colleagues? I begin to get the picture of Dr. Jerri as an idealistic, free-spirit who had problems coping with the medical establishment and its rules. I figure that most doctors, in addition to caring for their patients, know how to play the ambition game and are adept at in-hospital politics. Maybe Jerri's discontent stemmed from her inability to understand and relate to them because she had such an exaggerated sense of idealism and duty and no political "smarts". If Dr. Jerri thought that medicine was ONLY about devoting herself to her patients, then she was a naive, square peg in the very round AMA.

More in Chapter 10 about the nature of her job as a doctor at the South Pole.. "The tribe is all we have here and it makes its own laws...Here duty is everything. How beautiful and simple that is. It is my duty to love and accept and care for everyone..." Sounds to me like she's mighty relieved to be done with the strictures of modern medicine and also the need to associate mostly with the people who are the "right sort."

Again in Chapter 10, Jerri's mother, who had originally encouraged her daughter toward the adventure and idealism of the South Pole adventure with the hope that she would return refreshed and stronger, now has some alternate thoughts in one of her emails.

"Sometimes I dare to think that everything is going to be all right and you will come home and begin your life over...and if that is the case, I don't want you to come home sorry for cutting all ties to this world only to find that this is the real world and the Ice was a temporary experience which will fade away into memory....People and things look different once one is away from such a close group...Ways of thinking down there are stifled by a lack of external input. Be careful that you don't try to build a life from something which is fun but has little permanence."

I see Jerri as a mass of contradictions. She is bright, but naive. She is idealistic and loves people but has problems dealing with the competitive, selfish drives of the average person. She is vulnerable and volatile. She is overly duty-bound. Her emotions soar and plummet. She loves to live at the edge, but can't cope with everyday life. Somewhere in that mix may be the reason why her children are alienated, but I'll never know.

I like her and sympathize with her because I believe she's a genuinely good person and loves her kids.

Harriet

If our doctor did use this book to send messages to her children which she is helpless to get to them otherwise, then she would not bother to tell them anything they already know. This may account for what we feel are gaps in her story, as we start out minus any information whatsoever.

Thanks, Harriet and MaryPage for your posts. Our author is a mass of contradictions and is not telling all which leaves her readers confused.

Wouldn't we like to ask her questions! Maybe she just never thought she would have such critical reviewers. But on to our remaining chapters, perhaps we can find a clue?

After the parties…….

They did think of neat things to do for fun didn't they? I like the parties.

But then came Hell on Earth as Dr. J. titles it. I'll quote a bit for those who might be lurking:

There is never a good time for a power failure at the South Pole. The timing of this one could hardly have been worse, with the emergency airdrop less than 22 hours away. …..when he (Big John) first reached the power plant and opened the control room door, he was slapped in the face by the acrid smell of fried wiring and burned electronic components. The emergency lights had failed, and all he could see were a few flames licking the control panels. Big took a deep breath and blew out the fire, then ran to the door on the far side, clearing the smoke by ventilating the room. Generator number two ….was still smoking……gen number one's controller was bubbling, …..That left gen number three-the last line of defense between the South Pole station and the Antarctic winter.

That is hellish!!!

And what of this computer hacker that was getting into every site with a .gov address! What I don't understand is this statement: "if the South Pole lost its computers……years of priceless research data" would be lost. Don't these people back all this research data up and ship out the discs? These are computer experts we are talking about here.

Can you comprehend such carelessness?

Wouldn't you think that putting grease on your face and hands when you go out in that frigid weather would help? Grease doesn't freeze - I've heard somewhere of bear grease, but don't know what it is. A tough type of grease that might help?

AND WAIT JUST ONE MINUTE! No ice scraper on this huge Arctic Cat machine (whatever it is called) that had floor-to-ceiling windows that frosted up? They had to use a credit card to scrape these windows? COME ON - what's wrong with these people??? It isn't as though they have never encountered frost before, really! That's even worse than carelessness!

More later......

Just wanted to add while I am close to the computer that I have fallen in love with Dr. J's brother. What a guy, what a letter! Here's a paragraph:

I will be there to hold your hand when you hurt and to give you cups of ice. That is all I know how to do, but you will get better and we will be old farts together and we will sail and sit on the swing at the beach and reflect on all of the hell-that is life-that we have endured. I promise you that. I have no right to - but I just know....I love you, sister. I am very proud of you. I know that this is hard. Keep your chin up. Brother boy is here & the boat and I are waiting for you to get home so we can get you straightened up so we can fly and sail. I love you.

Do you suppose she loans him out now and then? haha

Ella: I think that the "loss of data" statements are examples of Nielsen's either lack of computer knowledge or ...uh...misinformation. If they send back the data and pictures from satellites and space ships, I'm sure, if it's important, they're also sending out the data from the South Pole. (If it's not important, why are they there?) If they aren't backing up and sending out the data periodically, then our tax dollars are being wasted and the whole place should be shut down for sheer incompetence.

It's that kind of thing that makes me wonder if the other Polies who allowed their names to be used were allowed to see the manuscript before it was published and had any rights of "correction" of the "facts" she presents.

š jane›

What bothers me is the fact that Dr J's medical reports are made public. Divulging a person's medical records seems so heartless, uncaring. Is there anything that the media can not touch?

Isn't talking to your doctor highly personal? Are privacy rights suspended if you become a sort of "celebrity?"

Since Dr J was so enraged about her health being publicized, could she have sued whoever invaded her privacy?

Good questions, Hats! I agree with you completely on the press and what they seem to see as "the public's right to know." I guess we can ask about the President's health...and maybe the VP's...but I frankly don't care a whit about the other "celebrities" health...or whatever...[even the BC thing with Suzanne Somers leaves me cold...and feeling she's manipulating the press to cover her own vanity.]

Because Nielsen's a "govt employee" (I assume) at the South Pole doesn't give anybody the right, I believe, to violate that medical privacy issue. I guess when she/they requested "rescue" that endangered others lives, it became a media circus.

How do you think the media learned of Dr. Jeri's BC? Does she mention this in the book? Somehow, what you have said leads me to believe that she, herself, alerted the press. Sue

Hi Everybody!

Sue, no, Dr. Jerri didn't alert the press, it was done by a medical consultant (as I remember, can't find the place in the book) that the Antarctica agency used to discuss the cancer and the procedure to be used.

I have a lot of questions about Dr. Jerri's attitude toward her cancer however, I hope some of you can answer them.

Were you surprised by her fear and dismal outlook? Or is this to be expected? Are doctors more apt to be negative about their illness or disease than other people?

Those of you who have had cancer, breast cancer, or any cancer, how does her attitude compare to your own? Did you think you had a chance at life or did you think you were at death's door as did Dr. Jerri?

And what did you think of Dr. Kathy Miller's advice? Would you have liked her as a doctor?

Here I must tell you just a little about Lance Armstrong's book IT'S NOT ABOUT THE BIKE. I saw it on the Bestseller Nonfiction list at my library (sometime after reading this book) and reserved it. It was simply a marvelous book - I had no idea I would enjoy it so much, what a fabulous young man he was - he was being talked about in Italy when I was there about 3 years ago. Bicycling is such a big sport in Europe, these young men are heros and the people follow their every race and their personal lives.

And he went to the same hospital as Dr. Jerri, had the same doctor and even has a picture of the nurse, LaTrice Haney, in his book. (I think, it's been a couple of months since I read it, I'll check on that) He just cannot say enough about how wonderful they were. We are going to be discussing his book in March (the date tentative), do read the book and join us.

Armstrong had contacted a number of doctors and this hospital in Indianapolis was recommended and was finally where he decided to go to get the best treatment, and, obviously, Dr. Jerri ended up there also. Makes me think they have some special people there or the latest technology for cancer. This book doesn't give an explanation of why the Antarctica medical people chose this hospital or doctor, but it would be interesting to know.

Where is everyone today? I'm feeling lonely in here, please tell me someone is around!

Ella, If you're taking roll call, I am here. I am looking forward to the book discussion about Lance Armstrong. I have seen him on a tv interview. He seems like a very mentally strong person.

Well, I need to read my chapters.

Bye

I did not realize that so much had been written in newspapers about Dr J's personal life. We have been talking about the fact that maybe Dr J left out some facts about her personal life.

Have her children ever been interviewed or written an article about their family's life, or have they remained quiet? Perhaps, only the whole truth can be gained from the children. They are the ones caught in the middle.

Obviously, the children will need counseling. If they don't forgive their mother, they will find it impossible to move forward in life. If she dies, and they haven't forgiven her.....will they ever be able to forgive themselves?

I don't know how I missed all of this, but I saw Dr J in one interview, and I am not sure whether her life with her children or husband came up in the interview.

From what I can understand from the book, Dr J's family problems became the focus in the news and not her health. I thought she became important because of the cancer.

I want to know why did she become so very important in the public eye? Was it the cancer or the fact that she seemed to be a runaway mother?

Jane, thanks. I wasn't sure my earlier question made sense. I had a hard time wording the question.

Hats, I agree with your post above, except for the comment about "runaway mother." Does that make the men at the Pole, who had families, "runaway fathers"? Others have made similar statements, so I won't harp.

But your comments about how the children will feel later is so true. I think as they mature, especially years from now, after their mother is dead and gone, they will realize how horribly they treated her. I hope for their sakes, that they reconcile before it's too late.

I think the young find it hard to empathize with their elders, just because they are young and lack experience. They may not have thought they were rejecting her, and how she would feel.

SUE: I remember it the same way ELLA does that it was one of the medical consultant who "tipped off the press." I remember at the time I was reading the book being angry about that. I could not find it in the book just now as I was looking for the place where it was mentioned. One thing I did find, just before Jerri wrote to her family on June 15, "Now that congressional staffers were hearing that there was 'a woman with a breast lump' standed at the South Pole, I didn't doubt that the press would be reporting this story very soon, and I had to get word to my loved ones first."

ELLA: I was not "surprised by her fear and dismal outlook" as you seem to be. When I got my diagnosis, I was in shock. My diagnosis was made by a mammogram and I was not watching a lump get bigger over a period of time like she was. I can't even imagine the feelings she was having with that going on in her body.

I remember hearing about Dr. Jerri Nielsen before the book came out because she was of her cancer. That was the only thing I heard about before I read the book just as MARY PAGE said.

It seems like if something could go wrong it would. Just before the emergency airdrop there was a blackout and a mad scramble to fix the generators. This is at the beginning of Chapter 11.

We are having visitors here for a couple of days and I will probably not be on the computer as much as usual.

Hi PEDLN and HATS.

Marjorie

Sue, I feel your pain and want to hug you closely. What more can I say?

In the doctor's case, she says she was totally shocked when she fled to her parents' home across town, because she expected her children to join her there. She was stunned and disappointed when they did not, has been trying to contact them ever since, has legal rights to joint custody of them, and does not fight it out in court further because she does not want to cause them additional pain. All of this I have read; what the truth is, I do not pretend to know, as I do not know any of the people involved here. She claims her husband is the type who must totally control people, and I have know men like that and fear and despise them, for they are capable of anything! Her husband has set up all kinds of barriers to her contacting her children; she has tried and tried.

Pedln, please look at what I wrote above. Dr J "seemed to be a runaway mother." She is not a "runaway" mother in my eyes, but I feel that she was painted that way through the words of the media.

I feel that a lot of the media's information came from the husband. They could not get to Dr J, and I feel Dr J's parents were very careful in what they said, but I feel the husband might have been just throwing his weight around, saying anything.

How awful that he could even think much less say that her cancer was imaginary.

No, she is not a " runaway mother." She is a woman who has been maltreated by her husband, and he continues to brainwash her children.

I agree totally wit MaryPage. She wrote what I tried to write. "Her husband has set up all kinds of barriers to her contacting her children; she has tried and tried."

Thanks, MaryPage. Your remarks are comforting.

As you can see, I have deleted the post above MaryPage's. My situation is entirely different from that of Dr. Jeri's children, evidently. However, I am sure they have feelings of abandonment--and probably have started to also resent their father's heavy handedness about the divorce. Dr. Jeri will have to make the first move as long as her children are adolescents. Perhaps when they begin to leave home and make new families, they may want a reconciliation. These children have been hurt terribly and I think the public expose' of their mother's book has contributed to their pain. Sue

A question for you with children....I have none, so have nothing to relate to. Could a mother who was close to her children and had attempted to protect them from the horror/abuse of the husband/father...have so misjudged her children? Wouldn't the children have known, if they were being slammed into walls and verbally abused by their father, that they would find a refuge and safety in their grandparents' home?

š jane›

Apparently, again from other reading I have done, the children hesitated, and then were lost. Part of their reluctance rose from their being teenagers, and they were concerned about leaving their rooms, schools, activities, and friends behind.

Most teenagers lack the life experience to weigh and evaluate matters outside of the world of their own immediate lives and their peers.

Their grandparents live on the other side of town.

In direct response to your question, as a parent I was often stunned at the lack of empathy my teenagers were capable of. Most adolescents tend to be almost totally self-absorbed. My children outgrew this, and now, one by one I have been watching my grandchildren emerge from this stage. So far the score is three out of three have completely evolved into persons who concern themselves FIRST with the feelings of others whom they love.

A few Internet sites of interest:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/community/2020/chat_primetime010126.html#top

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/2020/primetime_nielsen_010719_feature.html

http://www.photofil.net/story3690.htm

Remember that guy in the last picture? We've been seeing a lot of Hillary lately on the news as the Senator from N.Y. - good publicity for her - do any of you think we might be seeing the next president of the country as we watch her speaking?

Marjorie or Jane A question. Did your doctor tell you this (quoting from Dr. Kathy Miller's email, pg. 269): "I haven't seen or heard anything that tells me your disease is not curable. If I thought your disease wasn't curable I'd say so."

And Dr. Jerri had a very aggressive-type of breast cancer, as I remember. Do doctors believe that breast cancer is curable today? Do they tell you that?

I was particularly struck by the extraordinary emails between Dr. Jerri and Dr. Kathy Miller. Don't we all wish we could email our own doctors with questions and receive replies such as this? Is that likely in the future with the spread of technology? Would it be a doctor or would a nurse be the one that replies to us with possibly the doctor's orders? I can't imagine any doctor I've ever known spending the amount of time on one patient that Dr. Miller did.

Why did Dr. Jerri get direct contact with the doctor - was it because she is a physician herself or was it because of the publicity surrounding her case - her isolation at the South Pole?

However, we get a good picture through the emails of all the agony and the soul-searching questions that go through a cancer victim's mind - the fear of dying, the plans and hopes for the future gone, the futility of it all, the loss of hair, the expense and worry of it.

I have great empathy for any breast cancer patient and admire your courage through it all. I was with my sister a great deal of the time and, actually, her husband was more emotional than she was - I remember him crying and he was a rugged sort of a fellow that ordinarily would not.

Thanks to all of you for making this such an interesting book discussion. Your comments are something to look forward to everyday, even if we do differ in some details, you are always cool, intelligent and explicit in your posts and I appreciate all of you so very much.

Ella, thanks for those great links. I was looking for some transcripts of Dr. J.'s interviews but had no luck finding them. I found them to be interesting reading.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought that it was mentioned somewhere in Ice Bound that Dr. Kathy had once personally investigated the idea of practicing medicine in Antarctica. That might make for an instant empathy between herself and Dr. Jerri and might account for the time and personal attention she devoted to the case. Does anyone remember seeing that in the book?

Also, as a physician, Dr. Jerri would have been aware of more medical possibilities to discuss than a nurse might be able to respond to. It would have been very sad if her doctor had treated her only with a few cold, clinical words. After all, unlike the rest of us, how could Dr. Jerri get a second opinion or switch doctors?

Ella, I agree with you that I've never seen a doctor spend as much personal time on one case as Dr. Kathy did. It would certainly be nice iof everyone could have such personal care at a time of need.

Later: I found the reference I was looking for. On page 200 of my edition of the book, in Dr. Kathy's email of June 14, 1999, Kathy said she herself actually reviewed the posting for the station medical officer 3 years before and therefore had some familiarity with the station layout and conditions..

Harriet

After reading one of the many letters to her parents, I better understand the reason or reasons why a person would travel to such a harsh place.

Dr J writes, "I was too busy to think and to see. There was way too much background noise in my existence."

I have experienced that "background noise." For many years, our family travelled to the beach and that was my way to "try" to hear myself again. I have read about other people who have chosen the mountains, the sea or the desert in order to "hear" themselves again.

In the back of my mind, there is a poem, but the words are hazy. Can someone help me? It talks about 'the world being too much with us.' However, like Dr. J we have to come back to the hectic noise. It's impossible to stay away forever. I bet the people who lost loved ones this week need and would like to find that "quiet place."

Last week when Pres. Bush and the First Lady met in the church for the National Day of Prayer, I felt that need to "come away" crying out in all of us as a country, a need to find ourselves again, a need to breathe and regroup.

Ella, thanks for the links.

Ella: To answer your quesion about my own situation: re: Did your doctor tell you this (quoting from Dr. Kathy Miller's email, pg. 269): "I haven't seen or heard anything that tells me your disease is not curable. If I thought your disease wasn't curable I'd say so."

And Dr. Jerri had a very aggressive-type of breast cancer, as I remember. Do doctors believe that breast cancer is curable today? Do they tell you that?

On my first visit with my oncologist, he laid it all out:

• I had a very aggressive tumor
• It had not spread to the lymph glands under my arm. My bone scan and lung xrays were good as was the other breast.
• With surgery alone (I'd already had the mastectomy) he told me I had an 80% chance of no recurrence.
  He recommended the following treatment:
  • Have chemotherapy--will increase your chance of no further occurrences by up to 15%.
  • If you choose not to have chemo, take tamoxifen--will increase your chance by up to 5%. </UL
  My Onc was very upfront...saying that they felt that at that point in time that chemo, which is a difficult treatment, was proving useful in avoiding recurrence.
  
  
  The biggest chances for recurrence, according to both my oncologist and my surgeon were within the first three years. For that reason, there are frequent checkups and xrays...every three months. The next two years are in kind of the "transition" zone...and then the checkups were every 6 months. Five years is the first real "goal" for no recurrence. After 10 years my docs feel you're not likely to have a recurrence of the original cancer.
  
  Some people and some doctors say you can never use the word "cure" with cancer. You live without recurrence. Others feel once you've passed the 10 yr mark, for example, you're virtually "cured."
  
  I have never had such thoughtful care and kindnesses from any physicians or nurses than I did from the Oncologist and his staff. He called me one night at home at about 8:30 pm and talked to me for about an hour...because I'd called in to report a bad reaction after a chemo treatment. I was fine...but wanted him to know so he could perhaps make some adjustments to the "recipe" for the next time. He did...it was the IV with benedryl which he'd included to help with my nausea that doesn't agree with me...so he eliminated that and I had no further "floating" problems.
  
  Is this more than you all ever wanted to know?? LOL

Ella, in response to your question about Senator Hillary Clinton becoming the next President: all you have to do is to read many of the posts in our SeniorNet discussions on politics, executive branch, et. al. to see the continued unwarranted hostility (almost hatred) toward Senator Clinton, mostly from men who vote but also from conservative women, to know that she will not be elected President or even selected as a candidate anytime soon. What a shame that people keep such strong feelings festering for years. Sue

Ella, I've just read Jane's post. I am also a BC survivor and my doctors, (surgeon, radiation oncologist, and medical oncologist) were just as informative and helpful as hers were. I think this is the norm for cancer patients these days.

Ella: re: H. Clinton as next President.I think she'd like to be the next Dem candidate and she may indeed be. Whether she can overcome all the negatives and have a chance for election, I don't know at this point in time. Things change so quicky in politics that I wouldn't predict tomorrow, let alone 3 years from now.

š jane›

Hi, Sue! I sure agree...Oncologists are VERY special people and so are their staffs.

The only thing that I remember about the attention I received from my doctors regards the diagnosis that I received immediately after my biopsy. I went to the surgeon's office with a friend. As soon as the word "positive" was uttered, I requested that my friend join me from the waiting room. The doctor told us a lot about what was going on. I am sure my friend heard everything. I didn't. The next day I phoned and asked the surgeon a lot of questions and I am sure she was repeating what she had said the day before. I was pleased that she took the time to answer me.

I can't tell you how glad I am to hear Jane and Sue's and Marjorie's favorable opinions of their oncologists. The only other impression I had of oncologists until now was from a woman that I taught with about four years ago during her bout with breast cancer.

She continued to teach after taking some post surgical recuperative time, and she also had chemotherapy while working. I thought she was tremendously brave and resilient.

She told me that she was frightened and cried while waiting for her first chemo treatment. This angered her doctor and he threatened to deny her treatment and send her home because he "didn't want any problems from her." Those of us who heard the story wondered why she didn't change doctors. She pointed out that this cold-hearted man had been highly recommended for his medical skills and the survival rate of his patients. Nobody had guaranteed that he would be a sweet guy.

The incident lodged in my mind and had been a determining factor in my picture of cancer treatment. It always depressed me a lot because I pictured uncaring treatment while enduring fear and stress. Your experiences seem to indicate that callousness is not the norm.

My friend still retains her health. I wish continued health and happiness to you all Marjorie, Sue and Jane, and to every brave person fighting for health.

Harriet

I had missed that reference to Dr. Kathy Miller “reviewing” the position for the medical officer, Harriet, thanks for that. Did you see in one of those links that Dr. Jerri took a cruise to Antarctica this last summer with her family and she went as the physician onboard? She got close to the station but I don’t imagine they got any further than McMurdo, or did any of you read that tourists could get over the ice in the summer.

Background Noise! Oh, yes, Hats,we all find a way to get away from that in our lives, whether it be our jobs, people (including relatives – haha), children, even housework! We have to find peace once inawhile from the world – our world. I wish I could think of your poem, but maybe it will come to mind again – if so, type it in.

I remember something like this – “Go placidly amid the noise and haste and remember what peace there may be in silence.” I find peace from my world in reading a book, I have all my life – it’s an escape. Isn’t that what Dr. Jerri wanted for herself, an escape, although she got much more than she had expected and what an understatement that is!

Thank you, thank you, Jane, for all that information – all of us, as women, need to know, - cancer could happen to us at any time and the more you know, the more you want to know, particularly this: ”Some people and some doctors say you can never use the word "cure" with cancer. You live without recurrence. Others feel once you've passed the 10 yr mark, for example, you're virtually "cured." A big hip, hip, hooray, to our cancer survivors, Marjorie, Jane and Sue. I know it must have been difficult, but how wonderful to be able to tell us how great your oncologists were and their staff – SPECIAL PEOPLE INDEED!

Hi Harriet - it is unfortunate that your friend did not find such an oncologist. Obviously she weighed the circumstances and decided on what she thought was the better choice, personality or expertise and if her health is good, then she made the right choice.

HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT? NAH, NAH!!

On to Chapter 13 – we’re coming down the stretch now and Dr. Jerri is coming back to civilization.

Back later.......

Ella and Hats, I loved both of your quotations. Bartlett's Familiar Quotations came up with this for your line, Hats. Hope it's the right quote.

William Wordsworth (1770-1850)

The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
Little we see in Nature that is ours.

Miscellaneous Sonnets. Part i. xxxiii.

If it's available, I'd love to know the origin of your line of poetry, Ella. I related to it.

Harriet

I also found this in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. I guess we can ALL relate to this quotation.

NUMBER: 5019 AUTHOR: William Wordsworth (1770-1850)

Dreams, books, are each a world; and books, we know,
Are a substantial world, both pure and good.
Round these, with tendrils strong as flesh and blood,
Our pastime and our happiness will grow.

ATTRIBUTION: Personal Talk. Stanza 3.

Harriet

P.S. Ella. I'm going back to read more of your links. I only read the interview with care.

Thanks, HARRIET, for those Wordsworth sonnets. I betcha that first one is what HATS was remembering - I've only got a few minutes this evening, have been gone ALL DAY.

I did think of you, HATS, when we all went out to eat in a restaurant that was so nosy you could hardly the person right next to you and it didn't have any music either. Why don't they put acoustical tile on the ceilings anymore??? Some way to dim the NOISE! My daughter had gotten tickets to see the group that is touring America, originally from Great Britain, called THE STOMP. We enjoyed them tremendously - more fun!

I did look up the Statler Brothers (a favorite group among the Polies) and played a bit of one of their songs - that's COUNTRY with a capital "C." Here's the URL: (if you like country, play one)

http://www.marketplace.staunton.va.us/fourstar/stlrsongs.html

More tomorrow------

First Light!

That would be exciting wouldn't it, after months of darkness:

...I ran into Big who said that he had 'seen the light.' He said it took two people to get over the cliff and offered to help me. We went back outside and got to the top, where I saw the first whisper of sunlight. It was a happy moment, but at the same time, sad. I was about to lose the polar night, my comfort and my cloak. Strangely it seemed like the only certainty left in my precarious world

There have been a few times in this book where I feel Dr. Jerri (or perhaps her ghostwriter, Maryanne Vollers) have become too dramatic for the sake of the book and its reading public.

This is certainly one of those times. Dr. Jerri has cancer, she should be looking forward, counting the days, to when she can get proper treatment. She has wonderful parents and brothers, and presumably friends that she should be yearning to see again, to hug and be comforted by them.

She should be thinking of ways to get in touch with her children again - the most beloved in her life - but here she is thinking the polar night, my comfort and my cloak and the only certainty left.

No, no, no - can't believe that!

Turning a few pages from the beginning of Chapter 13, she is worried about her cancer metastizing and the only way she will find out is TO GET OFF THIS CONTINENT and back to civilization.

And turning a few more pages (302), I quote:

I am tired of being here, only because of the cancer. It (my little adventure) has lost its glow and fun. I have started to think of going home. The rest of the Polies are looking at maps every day and planning their trips around the world. The stupid cancer has taken over my life and mind.

When she wrote this book - I think while she was recuperating at home - how could she remember all of this? It must be she kept a journal as a couple of you have suggested. If so, she is having wild mood swings isn't she?

Later.......

Ella

Thanks Harriet! It is William Wordsworth. He is one of my favorite poets.

Ella, about noise I know what you mean. There is a bookstore in our town, and there is always loud music playing. How in the world can you read a jacket of a book and hear the music at the same time. If they could just lower it, everything would be fine.

When we went again, there was no music at all. Maybe someone complained.

On another subject, my mother had breast cancer. Her doctors and hospital were in Philadelphia. She received wonderful care. My mother had her mastecdomy before I was born.

Jane, Marjorie and Sue and all have been very helpful with their facts about cancer. Like Ella says it could happen to any of us. I did take away some facts from the book, but I hope that I have not gotten the facts all mixed up.

Does estrogen increase the chance of cancer growth? I know my chances are increased just because of my mother's cancer.

Well, I am sorely behind and need to finish my chapters.

Hats: Here's where it gets tricky...on the estrogen thing...Yes..and No.

Yes, for tumors that are estrogen receptor positive and probably no for the tumors that are estrogen receptor negative.

Some women have very positive receptors...found when they biopsy/analyze the tumor. Numbers can run into the hundreds, I was told by my onc.

My number was 7 or so...so low as to be considered negative for estrogen reception.

So, yes, some tumors are fed by estrogen; others are thought not to be.

There are, I was told, many different kinds of breast cancer tumors. That's why the treatments/options vary so much.

Oh, thanks Jane. Very helpful.

Please understand, Everyone, that I'm not a medical person. My information comes from my reading, from traditional medical sources, and most of what I've posted so far is all from my own surgeon and oncologists, all three of whom were very supportive of asking questions. [My surgeon insists that those who ask questions and participate in their medical care do much better medically than those who are passive about their medical care.]

Dr J writes that Big read to her from Shackleton's 'Endurance.' I remember hearing a lot about this book, Endurance. It seems that it brought Dr. J comfort and courage.

I have not read the book, but I wondered whether anyone here had read it.

HATS: I have not read Endurance or heard anything about it.

ELLA: Wild mood swings don't surprise me at all if her body is fighting cancer at the Pole where it would be using all of its resources if she were healthy. There is so much for the body to adjust to at the South Pole including the cold and the change in sleep patterns. I imagine the immune system would be working overtime under those conditions. Then add to that the cancer that it has to fight and I am not at all surprised that she had mood swings. When I am not feeling well, my mood changes -- sometimes when I eat wrong my mood changes also.

In Chapter 13 Jerri said:

... I thought about things that I hadn't considered since childhood. Why, if I am at the very bottom of the earth do I not fall off? ... Why do I seem to be at the top of the world? Where does the universe end?"

I would have liked her to try to answer some of those questions. I remember having those kinds of thoughts as a child too.

Marjorie

HATS, my husband read Shackleton's book years ago as I remember him telling me a little of it and I think we have the book around here someplace. Quite a fellow.

Hi Marjorie, we are on the last leg of Dr. J's adventure and I just finished reviewing a few pages. I liked what she had to say here and I am convinced of the truth of it, not only for survival of a group in circumstances such as she found herself in; but survival of any attempt of individuals to plan goals, participate in community activities, any form of government, and, yes, even a book discussion, don't you agree?

Not only were our job skills all equally needed and diverse, strengths of personality and character were also different and vital to the survival of the group. I came to see how in order to build a society, you need people of diverse temperament, social and intellectual skills. But as the darness and sameness of endless winter continued with fewer and fewer resources, I watched the group undergo previously unimagined challenges. Each person's strengths became more obvious, as did their weaknesses. Weaknesses became strengths and vice versa. A seemingly weak person may have a wonderful gift of patience and empathy, insight and organization; while a seemingly strong person might be disguising insecurities and fears with bluster. The movers and skakers might easily succumb to boredom. Like energetic animals in a cage, those individuals could drive the others crazy.

Where would you place someone such as Mahtma Ghandi, Dwight Eisenhower, Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, Joe Lieberman, George Bush, Colin Powell, Martin Luther King, Richard Nixon? Just a few names that come to mind.

And why weren't the women at the South Pole close? As Dr. J says on page 306 - "I was so moved by the generosity of this little community of women and their surprise hat shower." What does age matter in such a place? And she doesn't explain why they were different?

Want to bet that she looked up the poem on page 307 and didn't just happen on it when she lost her hair? The last stanza:

I heard an old religious man
But yesternight declare
That he had found a text to prove
that only God, my dear,
Could love you for yourself alone
And not your yellow hair.

Dramatics again!!!!

Would you venture a guess as to what Dr. J. meant on pg. 310 when she said "My feelings for Big were better left unsaid. We had a painful understanding. Our relationship was one of the most profound that either of us would experience, although I knew it could never be a conventional love relationship."

She fell for him? And he was a married man? Possibly?

Enough questions for one day -

Good questions, Ella.

The loss of her hair with chemo, I think, should be one of her lesser concerns, but I think it was a big deal to her...which I think speaks a lot to what she values.

She says the women were not close...but does she mean, perhaps, they weren't close to her, but were, as she was, close to others? She seemed, to me, to mention the men at the Pole much more than the women.

Yes, I think she would have had an intimate relationship with Big...and perhaps she did...but I don't think it would have survived in the world she lives in once off the Ice. Her comments may have been said because he wished them said to his family who would surely read this book? Remember her comments about these not being people with whom she would have socialized/talked off the Ice? I suspect she's gone back to that life.

I never had chemo and never lost my hair (just natural thinning with age). My hair was never very important to me. I don't get the impression that Jerri was a very vain person. What I do "understand" about the time on the ice is that no one has many personal things with there. There isn't room for one thing. Jerri's hair is something that was "hers" in this barren place. I have heard of other people having a party to shave their head before all their hair fell out. That didn't surprise me at all. I thought the poem was beautiful and, had I needed it, would be an inspiration to me.

JANE: I agree that she might have been intimate with Big and that it wouldn't have survived a return to the "real world." There certainly wasn't much privacy there. I guess it was a different kind of privacy.

ELLA: Thanks for quoting the paragraph about the diversity of the people there and how they worked together.

Marjorie

Hi Jane and Marjorie!.

We three agree that she had an affair with Big, huh? He seems to be a wonderful guy, reading to her, taking care of her, very affectionate - she's lucky to have had him there at such a time. I agree, Jane, that she does seem to have had closer relationships with the men, or at least she talks about them more than the women.

We still know very little about this woman, in my opinion.

Marjorie, I liked the poem - but loved the one on pg. 320 by Veronica Shoffstall. Wonder if she has written any others. I loved it so well that I quoted it in Charlie's new discussion "The Curious Mind." Note it here: http://www.seniornet.org/cgi-bin/WebX?7@@.ee90700/26

I thought it appropriate at this time in America.

And I ask myself how Dr. J.'s children could have resisted appeals by her wonderful brother, Scotty, whom I would love to adopt and bring home. He says: Real beauty cannot be hidden-it lives within the beautiful and will surface in the hearts of those close. It is like the warmth of the sun. It cannot be camouflaged, it if felt by the heart. I love you.

Gosh, with a brother like that, who needs another man in one's life! I think this is a wonderful loving family, which is all the more reason to question her children's lack of response to them.

HEY, MAGGIE - are you still with us?

Didn't mean to ignore you back there - is your computer up and running now? I know how frustrating it can be when it isn't and you want to post something or look something up. Do let us know!

MARY PAGE: Thank you for your insight. I hadn't thought of the possibility you mentioned Frankly, I do not believe she would have mentioned this relationship if it had been adulterous.

ELLA: I believe that I have read poem you liked (p. 320) a number of years ago. I should post it somewhere. The sentiment is great.

MaryPage -- I think you're right about the Dr J./Big relationship. Close friends, but not sexually intimate. As she and others stated, there was not much privacy at the Pole. A lot of people living in close quaters, with paper thin walls.

If there were involved sexually, I doubt any of the other polies would have said anything, but I'm sure they all would have known. There probably aren't too many secrets down there.

I'm trailing behind all of you in your reading. Need to get caught up.

I too loved the relationship between Big and Dr J. I don't think it was sexual, just a very close bond. I loved when he lifted her onto the plane for takeoff. Maybe she had a closer bond with the men because of her close relationship with her brothers.

Remember Dorianne? Isn't she the one who Dr. J felt very close to in the beginning of the journey? I think Dorianne could not endure the ice. Well, I was not surprised that her next adventure took her waaaay over to Japan, a climate more suitable for her body.

Maggie, I am glad you are back too.

I wonder whether Dr. J will write a sequel. I am thinking, if her health holds out, a sequel about sailing. It would be nice if she could write a sequel, a happy sequel, about her children coming back to her.

Ella, thanks for the poetry link.

Thank you PEDLN, MAGGIE AND HATS for your posts. I'm going to miss everyone when this discussion is over - oh, darn! Yes, I, too, would like her to write a sequel, HATS, and perhaps we could get to know her a little better! And, hopefully, her children! Certainly, someday they will reconcile or, at least, let the public know their side of this story. If anyone reads or hears anything about this family please email myself and Marjorie and as many as the rest as you can remember. WE ALL NEED TO KNOW!

And now the majority of us think she DID NOT have an affair with Big, they were just good friends. Could be, of course, we'll never know but I did like BIG, as all of you undoubtedly did. As Pedln said, they must all have known each others affairs, so close to each other did they live.

Food for thought in this paragraph:

As the winter lingers, the mind becomes duller. With this dullness, for some, comes decreased internal coping strategy. For others, it permits a deepening of understanding, charity, and a new clarity of tought. It is the difference between a POW who goes permanently insane, and a monk who finally finds the God that he has been searching for. They are in the same environment of lack, pain, discomfort, humiliation, deprivation of the senses. One chooses to be there, one does not. And yet, there are monks who go mad and POW's who find the true meaning of life.

Has anyone ever had deep-fried TURKEY? I would never think of doing that to a turkey, actually I only cook one at Thanksgiving and I don't know why I don't have it at other times of the year, I like it!! So I may just buy one next week and roast it in the oven.

And "Green Mashed Potatoes?" They do sound good though, with pureed spinach, potates and sour cream.

Has anyone ever heard of receiving oxygen for nausea? I hadn't but wish I could have had some after a couple of operations I had. The anesthesia always makes me gag for awhile and I drank seven-up for it - our method in those days!

This sentence of Dr. Jerri's is so well constructed - I admire it and wish I could put together one as good: Shackleton's courage, dispensed so long ago, reached across the years and piloted me through another night.

later........

Yes, I've heard of deep fried turkey..supposed to be quite good...it seemed to be quite the "fad" thing a year or so ago. You have to buy a special deep fryer for the size, of course. I've heard Wal Mart sells an oil they advertise for doing turkeys. I've not had it myself.

š jane›

MAGGIE: What a relief it must be for you to have your computer back. I can't imagine being without mine for 4 days.

I would like a sequel too HATS. (especially with a happy ending)

PEDLN: I had originally planned to reread the book as we go along. That was before I got distracted by the terrible events of 9/11/01. I feel like I am lagging behind as far as finding things to point out to everyone.

ELLA: You must have made great notes or something in your reading because every day you have great things to quote for us. An interesting comparison between life at the South Pole, at a monastery, and at a prison. Since I can't imagine myself choosing life at the South Pole, I think it would feel like a prison to me. Jerri had the additional stress of her illness. There are places where she makes it sound like she reached some clarity but I am not so sure that it lasted.

Hi JANE.

Marjorie

I don't know if I'd want to read a sequel, although I certainly would like to keep posted on Dr. J.

But i would like to know more about some of the other Polies, especially Reza (?) -- the young man whose father died while he was "on the ice." He came from such an isolated village, and was the only one from there to go to high school, let alone college. Wouldn't you like to know how he came to take that path?

One of the main impressions I had of Dr. Jerri as her illness progressed was her extreme mood swings. I can't tell if that was an offshoot of her medication and illness...or if maybe everyone has mood swings...but they just don't have to record them for posterity.

For instance, Dr. J. talks about her love of the darkness.... and I do believe that the dark may be perceived as a comforting cocoon at times. Yet, she is later energized by the approaching light and through it, she begins to remember the reality of her former life in the real world. Also, she loves her "cozy" but extremely constricted Polie environment. However when she returns to the world with its sun, oxygen and expanded horizons...when she sees colorful fruits and vegetables...she realizes that she has been suffering from sensory deprivation. She is not afraid and yet she is afraid during the course of her illness. But maybe anyone would react like that in a life threatening situation. She is an extremely changeable lady but I believe it is possible to have sincere, volatile mood swings, depending on emotions and circumstance.

When I first read this book I was sure that Dr. J. and Big had a physical relationship. Now as I reread and spot scan the book, I'm no longer as certain. Plainly the relationship had a great deal of depth and caring in it no matter whether or not it included sexual intimacy. She writes that Big helped her put this book together, but he returned to his home to care for his mother at some point. I feel that Dr. J. was a woman who endured many losses, the worst of which was the love of her children. When Big left her it was another loss, and it must have caused Dr. J. pain.

Hey, what fun! What a variety of viewpoints and interpretations in this discussion. I love reading all of your posts. Thanks to everyone for your stimulating company.

Harriet

Hi Pedlin, yes I would like to know more about Reza - what page was that on? I remember him vaguely, but want to read it again. Was he from India?

Good morning Harriet. Yes, you pointed out some of inconsistencies we have found in the book and have all wondered how she could have remembered these varying moods she had while at the Pole. A journal? Who knows?

What do you think after reading this paragraph?

I think it was easier to have cancer here, at the South Pole, than back in the world of high-tech medicine. Here, I had no option but to accept my fate. It was easier, in some ways, to accept having "no chance" of a cure than to have 'some chance,' especially while you are learning to accept your diagnosis. "Some chance" can cause you to claw frantically for survival, before the peace that comes with knowing, as my dad said when he got cancer, "What will be, will be."

My thoughts are that perhaps when the "final diagnosis" comes - the last chapter of my life, so to speak, will there be peace that comes with knowing? I hope! Today with the hospice association, which a number of my friends, sadly to say, have had to use, death can be peaceful. My best friend's husband knew 9 mos before his death that there was no chance, and he talked about it as if he was going on a journey - so calm. And he had no pain - he accepted his fate.

I read the last letter from Scotty - whom I admire, because he loves to sail and he certainly has a sense of adventure doesn't he? He has, he says, many stories to tell - I have many stories to tell about sailing. We tried it as a family, we had one for 3 years, an Interlake boat. Great fun! Wonderful memories! Loads of laughter over the little boat. We never learned to sail very well, consequently I admire those who have.

This morning I skimmed over the Epilogue to the book and have just a few comments. She got staph infection, heavens, wonder how? In the hospital possibly, I know it is easy to get it there, even though one would not think so.

And isn't it good that Dr. Jerri, after being in a state of denial and not wanting to associate with anyone who had cancer, joined a cancer support group and enjoyed the friendship of those who had experienced what she was going through.

Were there support groups when we were young? I doubt it and I wonder how it all got started, but how wonderful that we have these support groups today for everything? Have you ever joined one? My husband and I did to stop smoking some 15-20 years ago, it worked! Rather late for my husband who was a very heavy smoker and today has emphesema which is getting worse every year; of course, there is no cure for that but he has lived longer than he would have otherwise.

Tomorrow, let's summarize the book, take a look at the whole of it, rate the book on a scale of 1-10 with other books we have read, discuss the author for the last time and say our goodbyes! It's been such a joy to be with all of you, to debate these issues with you, and to discuss this adventure, I'm going to miss my daily contact with you.

Ella, the part you quote is, I think, the part that has bothered me most about all of this...well...that and some of her reactions to her chemo. As you quoted above: It was easier, in some ways, to accept having "no chance" of a cure than to have 'some chance,' especially while you are learning to accept your diagnosis.

Help, anyone....WHERE did any of the doctors tell Nielsen she had "no chance"? I cannot find that and could not when I read it the first time. I saw an email from Dr. Miller (?) saying she had at least a 50-50 chance of having no further recurrence. (p. 273) and yet on p. 276 she writes Scotty: "Not holding up. Sad about already being dead. No hope from my doctor. Even wrote to her begging for something to hold on to. Nothing good came back. She says that I am basically a dead person waiting to be buried." Please, somebody, show me where Dr. Kathy Miller said anything CLOSE to that??????

JANE: I wonder if this answers your question.

In Dr. Miller's letter dated 24 June 1999 she says:

...leaving the tumor in the breast for 3-4 months for active treatment is not harmful ... This is not the same as leaving the tumor in for 3-4 months and doing nothing -- which is our only option without the airdrop ...

On the next page the book says:

I liked Kathy's style, but I still wasn't convinced I had much of a chance. I believed tht my fate was predetermined -- if I had cancer, I had cancer, and it would kill me or it wouldn't. After all, if I had breast cancer it had already gone untreated for three months, and that, as she noted, would "adversely impact" my survival. ...

It seems to me that Jerri is counting the time she was watching the lump grow before diagnosis as part of the 3-4 months. I don't think that is the way Dr. Miller was counting. I would also imagine that she was thinking about the fact that she is at the South Pole and can't get out and doesn't know that an airlift will make it. More pesimistic than realistic perhaps. I can still believe that she felt she was going to die.

Marjorie

Hello Jane and Marjorie! Yes, I think that was part of it, Marjorie, but Dr. Kathy had told her just prior to that paragraph the "best estimate today is 35-40% probability of being alive, well and without breast cancer 10 years from now." Due to depression, being thrown into menopause early, lack of good care, hypoxia, etc. Dr. Jerri, no doubt, is looking at that figure as an estimate of 60% probability of death. Pessimistic, of course, but many of us facing all that would be pessimistic I think.

Thanks to all of you for making this discussion one of the best, it's been a pleasure being with you

I hope to meet all of you again soon. We have many book discussions coming in October (see Coming Attractions) to choose from and many under consideration. You'll never be bored in Books & Literature!!!!

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the highest, I would give this book an even 5. It wasn't the best, it wasn't the worst and I continue to believe that the whole truth was not told by the author. Furthermore, her tale of the adventures at the South Pole, her breast cancer episode and dramatic rescue should have been enough to make a good book without bringing her family situation to the public's attention. She claims she did in the hopes of reconciliation with her children and to tell her side of the story, but I have many doubts if going public will help.

Please tell me your views on the book before we part company! It's been fun! We have disagreed at times, but always with courtesy for others' opinions and, acknowledged that we each have different values and each person's opinion is important. Thanks again so much, you've all been great. Ella

Good Morning Everyone,

Marjorie and Ella, I enjoyed the discussion very much, and I am sorry it is over. You were wonderful as discussion leaders. You made us feel that each and everyone of us had something important to say.

All of the posters helped me to see words Dr J had written that I missed or that I had misjudged. I will be glad to see everyone in new and future discussions.

I also gleaned much from the personal experiences of others in the group. Then, I enjoyed the fact that we could disagree and then, come full circle back to one another and agree on something else. We remained friends through it all. We had fun.

From the book, I have new information about Antartica (I still have to think when spelling that word). I also had a chance to think about the importance of family and of good health. I had a chance to think about the joys friends can bring. Also, I tried to think about my own fears and through Dr. J's experience become more courageous, learn to reach for different and new adventures.

I hate to rate books, but if I had to rate this one, I would give it a seven.

May I ask one question, please, before everybody leaves...

IF Dr. Jerri Nielsen were practicing medicine in a Family Practice or Women's Health Practice in your town, would you go to her as your personal physician?

I'll be back later with my number...have to think about that a bit.

Jane, that's a hard question. I am thinking. Hmmmm.

Hats said it all so well, and I agree with everything she said.

I want to second the praise for our DL's. Ella and Marjorie, you are absolutely terrific. Thanks to you both we negotiated our way through many potential disagreements with humor and enthusiasm. Marjorie, thank you for your sensitive analyses of the thinking of a woman with breast cancer. Each of you added such special things to the discussion.

I guess I would rate the book a 5, but I would certainly rate our discussion much higher than that, not only because of all the things I learned about the South Pole, but because of the things I learned about many of my co-participants in this discussion. So many of you chose to confide some personal emotions and experiences and, as a result, I feel a warmth and closeness to all of you. Now I understand the courage and compassion underlying your well-written comments. Thank you all.

Jane, about your question: I'm ALWAYS leery of starting with a new doctor no matter who s(he) may be. I've had some not-so-terrific experiences with doctors who participated in my medical insurance plan so, of necessity, I've learned to look at every new doctor carefully. Yes, I would go to Dr. Jerri initially. After that, just as with any other doctor, I would reserve the option, based on my personal feelings, to decide whether I wanted to continue as her patient. In the past I've had to "kiss" quite a few medical frogs before coming up with a prince of a doctor, so I try to be flexible in that respect. It's so hard for a lay person like me to determine real medical expertise.

I'm sorry to see the discussion end. It's been a true pleasure. I wish you all health and happiness both for yourselves and those who are dear to you.

Harriet

I don't know how to rate this book. That is a very difficult thing to do.

JANE: I don't know how to answer your question. I have a doctor I like right now and have no need to look for another one. I would be like HARRIET, I believe, if I did need a new doctor and be skeptical until the new doctor had proven herself. If I had a particular recommendation I might try that before trying Jerri Nielsen. I don't know.

HATS and HARRIET: Thank you for your analysis of the discussion.

MAGGIE: I am glad you were here even though you did not get to post as much as you would have liked to. One small result of the September 11 tragedy was the change that was made in the course of this discussion.

JANE: I enjoyed your posts. I didn't always agree with you and that is just fine. The differences made for a good discussion.

Marjorie

I'll rate the book a 4. this group and the participants I would give a 10+. You've all been openly honest with sharing your most personal thoughts.

No, Jane, just what I have read of Dr. Jerri, I would not choose her as a physician. I would have problems enough controlling my anger at my disease , how could I control my anger at a mere mortal?

Before you pull the plug, I have a couple of comments. I've been away and have had to play catch-up.

ELLA-- I have eaten 'possum. It was tasty, but VERY greasy. Not my favorite dish. The first plastic-like substance I remember was bakelite. They used to use it for radio cases, and some insulation material. Very brittle. Oh, and grease WILL freeze, some at lower temps than others.

HATS-- Dr. Jerri could not have seen the Aurora Borealis from the South Pole. The aurora is an atmospheric phenomenon that appears most often above 60° North or South latitude, but also in other parts of the world like Canada, Northern Scotland, Norway and Sweden. Depending on where it appears, it is named either aurora borealis (northern lights) or aurora australis (southern lights). Together they are called aurora polaris or the polar lights.

Oscar Dorr

Oscar, thanks for the info.

Hi Oscar! Sorry you were away, we had a good discussion and now, I can't remember why I asked about eating possum - Oh, mercy! But I do remember bakelite - and on early radios - thank you for that! That was the earliest plastic? I do remember early plastic kitchen stuff - it was very brittle and would break easily as did bakelite. Nice to have the flexible stuff now.

What was it that Dr. Jerri saw at the South Pole - the lights in the sky? Did she just call them borealis - and that means "lights?"

When I see we still have messages here, I have to pop in to see what's going on. We'll keep the discussion open for a couple more days if anyone has any comments to make.

Thanks to those of you who have answered the questionnaire Marjorie and I emailed.

Still have a couple chapters to go -- not necessarily the last two (I skip around). Right now I'd give the book about a 6. This discussion about it was most worthwhile, and thought provoking. And it (the discussion) really forced you to try to understand the other guy's/gal's point of view. I thought we picked on the doc a bit much, but we all bring different attitudes to our readings.

So glad I read the book; don't know if I would have without the discussion. The book has certainly increased my awareness and interest in Antarctica. Shackleton's Endurance is on my list for a future read.

The doc has my sympathies all the way. I can't imagine anyone going through what she did and still finding some humor along the way. I wish her well, and will try to follow any future news about her.

Marjorie and Ella -- many many thanks for all the hours you must have spent on this. You did an A+ job. The rest of you -- thanks for making this a worthwhile discussion and thanks for all the references to other sites about Dr. J and Antarctica.