I tried the Barnes and Noble and couldn't get anywhere, nothing, nil, nada. I bought the book from Amazon and will look forward to the discussion.

RHEA COLEMAN!!!!!! Long time no see how GREAT to see you again!!!

How are you and WHAT are you doing??

Ginny

Ginny, I just finished setting up an office for Travel Teachers and Home Front Pioneers for the Bahá'í Faith. It was a lot of details and I decided I needed some me time, so I found this.

I'd prepared a time-line for the history of the Indians of the Southwest and one of the local Indians reviewed it and suggested it was all wrong, the dates were white-eyes dates, etc. I got into the TT&HFP work and haven't had time with him. He said he'd show me the errors of my way. I hope I have time to take him up on it. I really don't know much about the Eastern Indians--and according to Joe I don't know anything about the Southwest Indians either.

Anyway, I'll be avidly reading this. In fact I bought the one, and as you know Amazon shows other books and I bought one of them also. It will be fun to see how it blends with the histories I have used, and even more fun if Joe will still colaborate with me.

Personally, no changes.

Rhea: NO changes??

Listen, we need Joe in here!!! PLEASE implore him to join us, even if he has to dictate over your shoulder!!

What a great set up!

Which tribe is he? I will also write my friends on the Pueblo reservation in New Mexico, and between everyone's aid, we'll get a fabulous discussion going here.

Next we will do excerpts from Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and we want Joe's input all the way!

Ginny

Joe is an employee of some acquaintances. He is about 30 maybe. He doesn't trust us, however, my book Gutsy's Luck and my stories about Geronimo caused him to bend, just a little. I will try to contact him. I have a note saying if I wanted the truth to call this number. I'll try to call him tomorrow. Because he is local, and his number is local I imagine he is Apache. It's too late to call tonight. He is well educated. Could be a highschool teacher, I believe, but politics--maybe he is qualified to be a university professor-- either caused him to be fired or not hired. I'll find out tomorrow.

Dee Brown was considered, by us white-eyes, a fair writer,( fair in the justice field not quality of writing or color of skin) but I'm not sure. It's been a while since I have read any of Dee Brown's books.

This could be a lot of fun.

I've forgotten the tribe you have friends among.

Rhea, this will be great!

What's with the "white-eyes" stuff? What color are HIS eyes? I thought everybody has whites in their eyes. Do tell him to come, we need his input, and if he has another author to read, we can do that, too. Maybe there is a better book than the Dee Brown, tho I think everybody ought to read a little of it, it sure was an eye opener for me. I think we could do a few chapters, anyway....I know Harold has agreed to do some.

The Tribe of our friends is the Zia Pueblo in Zia Pueblo, NM.

Weren't the Apaches very warlike?

I think this could be an eye opening forum all around.

Ginny

I am probably prejudiced. If you could see this beautiful country the Indians called their own before it was INVADED by the Spanish, you would say as BG(the guru) says: "I'd have fought like h e double hockey sticks(to quote a commercial) to keep it. Frankly, I was grateful to learn the Spanish were here first and we only followed with more of the same. When the Spanish government put a bounty on Indian scalps, the Indians began scapling in return--News to me, how about you? Just a few miles from here a group of white eyes planned a dinner for the Hotspring Indians, Cochise was the chief, they came to the dinner and were killed in cold blood. Cochise escaped, and of course in time retaliated.

One of the best stories of Indian retaliation was when some miners, after they found gold in the area, inticed Cochise to meet with them. They said they wanted to give him and his tribe gifts. Instead, they horsewhipped Cochise until they thought he was dead. These coarse men kept saying: "Next time send the girls." Cochise lived, crawled miles to his tribe, and after he got well he planned and carried out a wonderful retaliation. He had his "girls" pretend to be playing, running around close to the river, combing their hair and being enticing to the lonely and depraved miners. They, the miners, ran after the girls, they expected more than watching the hair combing. The Indian mem were hidden in the area and when the foolish miners were really panting after the girls and trying to capture them, the Indians killed them all. It was called an Indian Massacre. No one thought it would justifiable (in my opinion) start the Indians on the WarPath. If I haven't posted that story in my folder, I will post it. That was only one. Did I post why Geronimo is called Geronimo and why he was on the warpath?

I forgot to answer about the "white eyes" the whites of our eyes are very white. The whites of what was original Indians have brown flecks through them. Also their eyes are almost black. They--generally--can see further and sharper than we can. I say that with great honesty because I was nearsighted all my life.

We have no real understanding of the true history. I thought I was near it with the timeline, but the first thing Joe said, "We didn't arrive here, we have always been here." made me realize I hadn't even questioned that data before.

I'm watching the mail box. Maybe the book will get here.

The book didn't get here: Maybe tomorrow. One excellent book ONCE THEY MOVED LIKE THE WIND by David Roberts is enlightening..Another by Eve Ball AN APACHE ODYSSEY INDEH is also great. There are others, but these are accepted here.

There are books by the men who fought the Indians as well. Some self-serving and some very respectful of the skills of the generalship.

As you can see this is a subject I spend a lot of time researching.

Just got this in the mail from my Book club. "Native American Mystery" "The Story Teller" by Margaret Coel. Tony Hillerman says: "Coel's mysteries shouldnt be missed by anyone interested in either new trends in mystery writing or contemporary American Indian culture."

Synopsis: The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act promises to return native artifacts that were looted from the tribes generations ago. So when a pictograph ledger, the only known eyewitness account ofArapaho life on the plains, is missing from the Denver museum, Arapaho attorney Vicky holden and missionary Father JohnO'Malley team up to find and return the sacred book. It's worth millions to collectors who'd pay handsomely for even a single page. And when a young grad student who was tracing the book's history is found face down in the river, Vicky and Father John know they better move fast....before someone makes another killing in the collector's market.

What do you think?

Archaeology and Anthropology being areas of primary interest for me, I would take a contrary stance to both native Americans and Orthodox Jews regarding their obstruction of scientific study of the prehistoric and ancient dead. These bodies and gravesites are no more or less their ancestors than they are mine, or than adam and eve are to any of us.

Just thought I'd interject a bit of current debate into the discussion.

Best

LJ

My own understanding--limited--was the Indians were objecting to the type of thing that happened when heads were cut off, boiled and put on display in Chicago or Washington. I know because I lived close that houses were built over an Indian burial ground near Sacramento. People, some, claimed unusual happenings, I never experienced that and frankly didn't consider the stories too credible. We study the Egyptians, the Africans, the long long ago people such as those found close to Portales and Hobbs, NM. You are right, they are our ancestors also. We are discovering that now. I think the greatest consideration is for the artifacts that are now extremely valuable. Even a sliver of a bone from the Portales digs are worth an awesome amount of money.

Oh Gail, you will so enjoy Margaret Coel she writes a good story. Sometime try a James Doss book. He writes about the Ute Indians in Colorado.

Rhea I so enjoyed your talk about Geronimo. I had heard of the beating he had at the hands of the miners but never did I hear about the retaliation of Geronimo. Smart man. My studies have been mostly the Navajo and Hopi then I did a big jump to the Mayans. Please tell us how Geronimo got his name. Thank you.

Bunny

I am making this early post to say a few words about the two books which we are scheduled to review during this discussion. These books are concern with native North American history at the very beginning and the final end of the historical period during which the native culture interacted and struggled with the growing European encroachment. The de Vaca Journal gives what I am sure is the first written account of the native peoples in a part of the continent that today is a part of the United States. The Bury My Heart book gives an account of the final struggle during the last half of the 19th century.

In reading this Journal the reader must remember that Cabeza de Vaca was a shipwreck soldier and not an ethnographer. His Journal is his report to his King describing his experiences during the decade spent in a strange and unknown land. Cabeza de Vaca was in no way an ethnographer in the modern sense. Yet his account of the interface of the Spanish party with many native tribes though incomplete and often vague gives an interesting picture of the simple gathering cultures of the native peoples of the Southwest.

The reader of either of the modern annotated translations has the benefit of the footnoted editorial annotations that are helpful and in some cases essential for an understanding of the text. For this reason readers are urged to refer to the notes while in the process of reading. This task that would have been rendered easier had the publisher seen fit to include the notes as footnotes, on the same page as the text instead of locating them at the end of the book.

I see the de Vaca Journal discussion schedule as a period of about five weeks duration after which we will time travel over three centuries to the 19th century to continue with the Bury My Heart conclusion.

Hopefully we will have a large and vocal group of active participants. This page was opened early for pre-discussion comments and other early traffic relative to acquisition of the book and expressions of interest. I will continue to monitor any early traffic relative to the reading of the book. However, please let us hold actual discussion until the opening date that I understand is on track to begin Jan 30th. I hope to hear from you then.

Harold

P.S. Do check out the Rock Art Foundation link which is given in the title block above. Though these lower Pecos rock pictures predates the de Vaca passage by many centuries, the culture in the area at the time of the Spanish passage seem much like that of the rock artists.

Sorry Harold about jumping in but when I read what Rhea sid I just got so excited I couldn't keep still but I promise I will now Harold.

Bunny

Harold, in the Favita/Fernandez translation there is one map which leaves me at an almost total loss for comprehending the text. Do you have any suggestions?

Best

LJ

I'm real pleased to meet Rhea, Gail, and Bunny who I have not worked with before. Likewise I'm real happy to again be working with Ginny and L.J.

In regards to L.J.'s question about the map on page 15. It is true that there is a considerable disagreement among the several authorities on the route the de Vaca party took across Texas. The editor does include several paragraphs of discussion concerning the difficulity in fixing the route with any certainity. This stems from the often vague description of physical land marks given in the ancient text and the absence of any attempt by de Vaca to determine or estimate geographic position.

One of the routes ploted in the map has the party going down the Texas gulf coast and crossing the Rio Grande, then making their way up stream and recrossing into Texas near the big bend to continue to the El Paso area on the Texas side. The Hallenbeck and particularly the Hill route would put the track closest to my 20 acres in Guadalupe County. I would put my place a smigin south of the second "o," in San Antonio on the map on page 15. Let's save further discussion on the route until we are underway.

Hey L.J., best wishes for a full recovery. You will do it!

Harold

Hi All:

Fascinating info about the eyes of the Indians. Is it really true?

Has anyone read of the plight of the Indians in American culture today. I love Louise Erdrich, Michael Dorris, M. Scott Momaday.

Charlotte

Gail:

I just saw your post in the this folder about The Story Teller. Did you write a story with the same title? Where can I find it?

I just submitted a story to Mal.

Please answer me by E-mail so I can put you in my address book.

Charlotte

My computer guru son came home and fixed my computer so that I can get back on. The story of how Geronimo got his name is posted under Rhea's Life. I thought I had posted it before, but Katy and Joan said I hadn't. I will be posting another about the start of the warpath.

It's obvious, and I will positively state that I have a prejudice for the Indians as they were driven from their playgrounds. However, I state again!! I didn't do it.

This is a fascinating subject. I'm doing a lot of research. Please let me stay. I should learn a lot.

About the white eyes and my description of the eyeballs of the Indian--I just read that Tecumseh's eyes were hazel. However the other answer about white eyes was also from a research book. Because we are now so mixed, I wouldn't prove anything if I were to go around looking at all the Indians' eye balls. I'll just say that was what I read in my search of why I am a white-eye.

My books have arrived.

LJ what are you recovering from? I've been so busy I haven't been on the senior net for a while. So please tell me what happened. I pray really hard.

It wasn't Geronimo who was whipped. It was Mangas Coloradas (Red Sleeves) son-in-law of Cochise. I will post A START FOR A WAR PATH in Rhea's Life. Geronimo was with Victorio and Loco who counselled strongly that Mangas Coloradas not visit the Miners. However, Cochise had tried to be friendly, and Mangas Coloradas followed the guidance of Cochise. I am eager to be in this discussion

Rhea, can you post a URL here to your discussion?

Ginny

Ginny: I'm not sure how to post it. The guru is here, busy but here, and I will ask him to do it.

Rhea Coleman "A Work in Progress - Rhea's Life" 1/18/99 9:25am

He came in and I caught him.

I have a different translation of the de Vaco papers, published by U of New Mexico press, translated and edited by Cyclone Covey. (1961)

Maybe it will be interesing to compare the two translations in some aspects and if there is someone in the group with access to a Spanish version it might be interesing to see how the original Spanish reads. My reading knowledge of Spanish is very rusty. Maybe Rhea has some skill there as I know she spent some time in Argentina.

The one I have is published by the Rio Grande Press; it is a reprint of the 1905 translation by Fanny Bandelier.The text is a little island, surrounded by huge margins on each page. The title pages from both the 1542 and the 1555 editions are reproduced. Fanny's translation is very readable. The narrative just flows along. Starts off with an interesting description of a hurricaneThe New World did not give up its treasures lightly.

Jim, I spent time in Argentina, but my Spanish is very labored. I do have two books, the one by Covey and the one we are discussing. Much of my research has been in the Southwest development, and I frankly started with only childhood myths so I'm totally fascinated. I do have other books that relate, but not the pure records, even if errors will be found in these translations it is better than the other references I have. I do have an advantage by living close to the many reservations located in NM, I also worked at Los Alamos where many well educated Indians hold responsible positions. As a 'traveling secretary' I met and worked FOR many fine minds, well trained. However, the remembrance of their past and the deprivation of their lands still mark their relationship with us. They guard jealously the sovereignity of their nations. The Santa Clara Pueblo is very close to Los Alamos(so are others) and it was here I learned about the matriarchal rulership.

Jim, Jackie: I am sure that your books by different translators will be fine. In my opinion the additional sources can only add to the discussion. I recommended the Favata/Fernandez book only because I judged its annotations a tad superior to the version I had read previously. Incidently my copy of the alternate book seems to have slipped through the cracks. I don't recall loaning it, but its not here now.

I will check the Institute of Texan Cultures Library to see if they have a Spanish copy. My Spanish is at best marginal, but I can usually get by on reading. There are several points I would like to check against the original text. I suspect a Spanish dictionary will be necessary what with the 16th century vocabulary.

I plan to make an initial post Friday evening. At that point we'll be open for business!

Harold

P.S. Jim: I'm real enthuastc to be in another discussion with you.

We've made it to the 29th.

Harold: My translation has few notes, mainly comparing this account with that of Olveido. Your translation is annotated, I believe. Is there information about the modern names of tribes? The flora? The geography? I get the rivers, islands, etc., mixed up. Also, he speaks of the intense cold. I'm picturing them in Texas somewhere not far inland from the Gulf, eating prickly pears, running around with no clothes, and he speaks of the cold. I'm glad you instigated this discussion; The Account isintensely interesting. Thank you, Walter.

Post #29 raises a number of good points:

The annotations in the Favata/Fernandez translation do frequently identify tribes by their modern name to the extent that the modern tribes were infact players in the 16th century drama. We must remember many of the better known modern tribes such as the Comanche, Lipan Apache, Kiowa, etc were 17th and 18th century immigrants. The tribes encountered in coastal and South Texas were principally Karankawa and Coahuiltecan groups. Both of these people lived in small isolated clan groups each with its own name. These can be quite confusing to a reader. The following book which should be available in most librarys includes an apendex identifying by name over 100 group names mentioned in the Journalls of the 11 major Spanish expeditions into Texas between 1690 and 1768.

Foster, William C. "Spanissh Expeditions into Texas, 1689 - 1768," ISBN 0-292-72488-8, University of Texas Press,Austin, 1995.

The names given in this appendix seldom agree with names given by de Vaca. Incidently I don't think the long term residents in East Texas, the Caddo were specifically mentioned. Several vilage of this sophisticated group of forest farmers were within a hundred miles of de Vaca during his first years on the coast. He may have know of them since he appears to have become something of an itenerant pedler during the later years on the coast.

There is some identification of animals and I think flora in the annotations. They also attempt to identify rivers and other geographic locations to the extent possible by the problems associated with the limited navagational data given.

Your are right in your picture of the lifestyle of the coastal and South Texas Indians. Later in West Texas the pattern seems to have been prety much the same except for the climate differences.

I think historians agree that based on the early records, the climate in Central and South Texas was considerably colder than it is today. Some authors refer to the period before 1850 as,"the little ice age." Late 17th century Spanish records speak of frequent snow and ice in Northern Mexico and the lower Rio Grande valley area. But even today the South Texas coastal islands is no place to be running around naked during winter. It is wet,damp windy and even 40 degrees feels bitter cold. I don't think the survival rate among a group of modern Americans washed up on a barrier island during our relatively mild modern winters would be very high.

Jackie,

I think Harold has a much better idea than I do about the tribes modern names in the southwest, but if the situation there is anything like that in the midwest and central plains area where I have nore information, then the tribes present at Cabez de Vaco's time would be different than those present now or even a century ago since tribes move quite frequently.

The pueblo tribes at the northern end of his journey would probably be the most historically stable but even there there would be changes.

I am currently in Tucson Arizona rather than my Wisconsin home base and maybe I can locate some information here, especially about the Pima's who like most tribes now prefer their own name (Tohona Odoul?) to names given them by Europeans.

The Seminoles of Florida would not have been present at that time, for example, but have their own separate history of origin and development that occurs later.

It is interesting along this line that de Vaco does not recount much tribal history that he picked up in spite of the fact that the most pervasive oral legends of tribes is the story of their origin.

I wonder if they told de Vaco these legends or if they did why he doesn't recount some of them.

I wonder if they told de Vaca these legends or if they did why he doesn't recount some of them. (From Jim Olson in message #31).

Is it not probable that the language barrier made the conveyance of such stories impossible? It is one thing for an adult to pick up vocabulary of everyday items such as food, shelter, clothing, tools, etc. It would seem to be much more difficult and unlikely to pick up the meaning of the abstract ideals required to express history legends, tradition and religous concepts. I have no great problem understanding Spanish language commercials; understanding the broadcast of a Spanish religous sermon or cerimony is a different matter.

Perhaps another reason why de Vaca did not go in to history etc is his 16th century view of Christianity as the only true religion. To much on this subject might expose him to the critical eye of the Inquisition.

Also even the 19th century writers never seem to realy give us the details that must have been available to them. The de Vaca account is particulary short in that matter. But it remains the only account we have of these 16th century peopes.

Incidently let me add here another point concerning the annotations in the Favata/Fernandez translation. De Vaca authored another report on his experience known as "The Joint Report." I think this was to the Council of the Indies or another administrative body. To my knowledge there is no english version available. The annotations do frequently note differences between details given in the "Account" and the "Joint Report"

The annotations in my edition also reference the "joint report" and explain that report as one composed by de Vaca and the other two "Christian survivors" not including the slave Estaban. The supposed author based on style was the more learned Castillo.

There is a version of it as part of a larger work containing other histories as the original was lost. No mention is made of an English version.

The story begins at the start of the hurricane season on the coast at Trinidad and is filled with the excitement of what sounds like a series of violent storms. Is there any historical correlation of this unusual focus of violent weather?

Best

LJ

Though I am no expert in hurcane history, I think it rather obvious from the history that during the 16th century they often figured in events of the Spanish colonies. In South Texas we have the legend of a Treasure fleet loaded with gold wrecked in a hurcane on Padre Island.

Since the Spanish had no way for predicting the arrival of a storm, they always appeared as a surprise catching the victims with only a few hours for preparation. Also the Spanish caravel was not a particularly good sailor. It was difficult to manuver under storm conditions. Columbus was almost lost in the late winter/spring of 1493 as he was returning from the Indies with the news of the discoveries of his first voyage. The situation was so severe that he launched casts into the seas with writings telling of the discoveries. I don't think there are any historical reports of anyone finding one of these casts. This of course was a typical Atlantic winter storm, not a tropical hurricane as the one which hit the Narvaez ships at Santo Domingo.

Likewise some of the storms in December,1527 and the following months that figured in the seperation of the Spanish party from their ships were winter storms associated with frontal passages, not tropical hurricanes. The storm in the winter 1527/28 which resulted in the survivors stranded on the Texas coast too was a winter front not a hurricane.

One of the things I looked for in reading the report of de Vaca to Charles V was the way his immediate audience and purpose was reflected in his writing, his choice of details, point of view etc.

He was clearly pointing out the failures of Narvaez as a leader and contrasting them to his own qualities which were remarkable. Anyone who could organize and lead those four survivors through all the hardships they went through has good credentials for a future leadership role which de Vaca did achieve finally.

In all fairness to Narvaez, however, the key decision of whether to proceed inland or stay on the ships until a safe harbor was found is seen in the report in retrospect. if the distances had been as assumed and not as they actually were it may have not been such a bad decision. Navaerz, was probably interested in getting credit for founding a new and rich city for the Emperor and was eager to find one. He clearly had a rival in de Vaca and must have recognized that when he urged de Vaca to stay on the ship and take the water route where he would be out of N's hair so to speak,

And de Vaca's insistence on staying with N was probably also to be in on the action when and if any important discoveries were made.

I suppose a careful comparison of the joint report with that of de Vaca might reveal areas where de Vaca may have slanted his version more negatively toward Narvaez, although history seems to agree with de Vaca on the character of Narvaez in other roles as a leader in the area before taking on the expedition.

I had forgotten about the inquisition and Harold's point is well taken. I think by that time the church had ruled that Indians do have souls worthy of being saved, and de Vaca's pleas to convert them and to do so with kindness would not have gotten him into any trouble with the church but delving into the Indian spirituality and qualities of their religion would have.

This enlightened attitude of de Vaca seems to me to be a forerunner for the view of the Indians as "children" who needed protection, love, and guidance, a view held by many up to the present- but maybe more of that later.

I wonder how Castillo felt about this. He seems to have been the deeper intellect in the group, and I can't help but wonder if some of de Vaca's attitudes were not rubbed off from Castillo who was the one who discovered the ability to heal- perhaps by observing native medicine men at work.

Having said all of this, I agree with some of the critics who see in the work a quality that transcends its time and immediate purpose and speaks out to the modern reader as well with a strong adventure narrative and a universal message about spirituality and human unity across racial, cultural, geographic, and time barriers.

My thoughts about the hurrican(s): Hurricanes do not exist in the eastern Atlantic, I believe. They may have been unknow phenomena to the Europeans, as the Tornadoes certainly were. The ideal of a mini-ice age is a new one. I do recall something about the temps in Europe in the 15th century being extremely low. What could have caused such a change, other than atronomical events, would have been volcanic dust in the atmosphere, perhaps. I will do some surfing. The migrations of tribes would probably have resulted in climate changes affecting the food supplies. This is a very exciting exercise.

Some comments on the early Spanish Indian Policy.

Disregard and cruelty to the Natives was not unusual in the 16th century Spanish colonies in the new world. Columbus began the practice by seizing certain natives to bring back to Spain to prove his discoveries. One of the first of such captives jumped ship at the next island visited, swiming to shore to escape. The replacements were not so lucky and were brought back to Spain on the 1493 return. I don't remember the details, but they were converted to christianity and when one or more died they were heralded as the first natives of the Indes to be saved. Both Cortez in Mexico and Pizarro in Peru seized and enslaved natives of all social ranks including the two emperors, both of whom died in captivity.

The leader of the Flordia expedition, Panfilo de Narvaez was noted as being particularly cruel in his dealings with the natives. In footnote #2 in Chapter One Favita/Ferandez tells us, he was born in Spain in 1470. He had participated in the conquest of Cuba and had been sent by its Govenor to Mexico to arrest Hernan Cortez. Cortez, however, defeated Narvaez and arrested him holding him a prisoner for severl years. In 1526 after his release, Charles V made him Adelantado and granted him the right to conquer and settle Flordia. This was a substantial bit or real estate at the time extending from the northen part of Mexico along the Gulf coast to the tip of Flordia, then up the Atlantic coast to Newfoundland.

Pursuant to this commision Narvaez organized the expedition under study. An example of Narvaez's cruelity to the Indians in Flordia is given in the Favata/Fernandez book in footnote #6 in Chapter Five. This describes an account by a Juan Ortiz a member of the Narvaez expedition who was abandoned when the Spanards retreated from Apalachee. Ortiz was saved from execution by the Indians by the intervention of the daughter of a chief (an early version of the Pocohontas Story), and rescued several years later by the de Soto expedition. According to this account Narvaez had a chief's nose cut off and his mother thrown to the dogs. Not exactly the best way to win friends and influence people in an unknown land!

Jackie,

Migrations of and disappaernace of tribes have been associated with climate changes, particularily long periods of drought.

The same is true, of course, of migrations, of non-Indians such as the big move of Okies to the werst coast in the 1930's drought here. Incidentally a number of Southwest Indians also moved west at that time and set up Indian areas of los Angeles, Seattle, and other west coast cities.

It was also an impetus for the movement of Indians from reservations to big city areas throughout the midwest and west.

The main cause for tribal movement, rearrangerment etc in post settlement time has been the forced movement westward of eastern tribes and the warfare with adjoining tribes that ensued. Some historians also see the coming of the horse to be a major factor in tribal migrations in the west.

Rhea,

I now reading Blood Brother, the novel the movie Broken Arrow depicts and as you know it chronicles the life of Cohise, one of the Apache chiefs you write about.

hi to all, im just a retired electrician(served 43 yrs) but i like to read. Im also an easterner from Mass.We have the mohicans and wampaunoags and many other tribes around the area. It is difficult to find a good and true book about indian affairs. I especially liked "I heard the Owl call my name" the writer really caught the presence and innocence of the north west indian of today. i had the pleasure of working with a Cheyenne who was in the Boston area for work in the 70's,a quiet, reserved and nicer person you could not find any where. Back to the "Account"..I dont know why you all are so enthused about this book? Its full of holes,that don't add up. I couldn't keep track of where they were going or where they had been, or just try to keep count of how many people were in the party at any given time! He didn't say too much about the locals, except that some were tall and could shoot an arrow thru their iron chestplates. Yes they were gatherers as most tribes were. It seems to me that DeVaca wrote most of this journal after the fact from memory. I could be wrong but that is my impression. I dont see how ar why you expect to get 5 weeks out of these discussions. But no matter i'll follow along and maybe i'll learn something. Jackie Lynch .....I don't understand your reference that the Atlantic doesn't have Hurricanes in June they start off the coast of africa and come East and hit Cuba,central America, and the East Coast every year. Also Harold you refer that Spain gave to Navarez the right to conquer Florida all the way up to Newfoundland in 1526,Well I know that Plymouth was setteled in 1620 so he didnt get very far. Thanks for letting me join in...RichMc

Welcome Rich! Please join us often in this discussion.

I believe your critique of the book is a good summary of the many short comings of the book. Even the experts cannot be sure of the route which the group followed. Since de Vaca and the other survivors washed-up on the beach "bare behind" naked, they had no writing materials with which to keep a record of their experience. Both "The Account" and "The Joint Report" were written from memory 10 years after the initial events.

There is howeever much to be learned from the meager words that we are given. The fact that Florida Indian bows could penetrate the armor breast plates that provided life saving protection in the islands and even in Mexico tells us something of the abilities and culture of the people who made them. Likewise we learn something of the agricultural lifestyle of these Indians. Also we learn that unlike modern Floridians, these people had learned to build their houses low and where there was a bit protection from the frequent storms.

I think Jackie was refering to the Eastern Atlantic as the spwning grounds of the hurricanes. They form in the east but move west to make their destructive landfall in the Americas. And true, Spain was unable to enforce its claim to most of the real estate included in the rather generous Navaraz grant

Jim, I thought Blood Brother to be a fine book. I wasn't reading it critically, but sympathically. Another book is INDEH, by Eve Ball. She lived in Ruidoso and was an accepted "Grandmother" or as some called her "The Old White Lady with Many Stories.

Rich: Because I research such information as is in The Account, I am glad to read it. I agree, it's not the same story I have read from much later historical accounts.

There are families here who proudly have the last name: C de Vaca often changed to C de Baca because of the English pronounciation of the V. [ Also, Baca does not mean Cow.] In ORIGINS OF NEW MEXICO FAMLIES by Fray Angèlico Cháves the time for them to be here was given as 1600.

One of the words used by de Vaca that I would like to compare in different translations is "plunder" used in the translation I am using several times in reference to the tribes interactions with each other- especilally in ther last phases of the journey .

I wonder in some cases (but certainly not all) if de Vaca wasn't mistaking "plunder" for the common practice of many tribes to divest themeselves of all possessions in ritual gift giving (of course, getting gifts in re turn at the next ritual occasion. I witnessed this in one of the Hopi Kachina dances and in a Potlatch of the Northwest Indian tradition.

I think it was also a plains indian tradition at the end of the Sundance.

The Peoples of Apalachee and and Aute.

In footnote 1 of the Favata/Fernandez edition we are told the Apalachee Indians were associated with the Fort Walton, Mississippian culture. They were in Northwest Florida. Their agricultural economy supported a large population of about 25,000 people. They grew corn, beans and squash, pumpkins, melons, and sunflowers, and hunted the forest/swamp game animals. This mississippian culture was introduced into the Mississippi Valley from mesoamerica about 500 BC. Over the next thousand years it became the dominant culture over much of the eastern half of North America. The Florida people who lived at both Apalachee and Aute were a southeastern extension of this culture.

Some of the things about these Indians that impressed me follow:

Bows. De Vaca was definitely impressed with the power of these bows and its ability to penetrate the armor of the Spanish. De Vaca says he heard accounts of an arrow shot through a young oak tree the size of a mans lower leg and that he himself witnessed an arrow shot through a popular tree one xeme (about 5 inches) thick. These bows were almost certainly a long bow of about 5 ft 6 inches in length. The Plains Indians made their bows of bois d' arc (osage orange) or ash. Are these woods available in Florida? These were shorter about 42 inches in length for use from horse back and backed by a strip of buffalo sinew glued to the face. Would any suitable sinew have been available in Florida?

Crops and Food Supply. De Vaca mentions only corn, beans and squash. The Spanish appear to have appropriated these crops for their own use without regard for the property interest of the Indians. De Vaca also mentions venison and describes the possum. Curiously he never mentioned the alligator.

Blankets. When the Spanish entered Apalachee they found "Many deer skins and a few small woven blankets of poor quality." What fiber was available to these Indians in Florida? Is it not true that cotton was of African orgin? In South America the Incas wove textiles from llama wool, but in Florida? Do you suppose de Vaca was describing sleeping mats woven from grass or reeds?

Housing. De Vaca describes small thatched huts. This would be similar to the Caddo in East Texas who were also village farmers who built rather large 65 foot diameter, beehive shaped huts thatched with grass. I am impressed by the Florida practice of building low in wind protected places in deference to the many storms that could be expected in the summer and fall months.

I'll conclude this rather long post with a few words on the attitude and policy of the Spanish in exploring and settling the newly discovered lands. First the Spanish seem terribly inapt for the successful conclusion of the goals they had set. They arrive in a new land with a few hundred armed men with out adequate food and supplies or the ability to obtain them. They intend to live off the land and proceed to do so with out regard for the crops and other property of the natives. They made no understandable effort to offer the Natives trade or compensation.

The natives, who first viewed the invaders in fear and awe, retreated into the forest. Later they came to realize that by reason of numbers and quite adequate arms they were perfectly capable of dealing with the invaders. In this case they began a series of guerrilla attacks that decimated the Spanish force making the dangerous evacuation by sea mandatory.

Hello to all....Harold thankyou for your kind words. in reference to your post of #44 you seem to have filled some of my"holes" that I refered to before.Devaca evidently didn't know of what wood the indians used to make their bows. And yes,the Spaniard's did seem to just take possesion of anything they found without regard to payment. No wonder they were soon routed,but I guess most explorers were just ruthless people looking for the almighty buck,dubloon or whatever. DeVaca seemed to have mellowed with time spent among the natives,and he changes in his opinion of their inteligence and resourcefullness as the book moves along. Your reference about" no mention of the alligator" makes me think that they arrived higher up the coast and missed florida alltogether. Being a northener Im not familiar are there alligators in Louisiana or Mississippi? Or did he just land on the coast of Texas? Its hard to put ones'self in the boot's of someone in the 15th century, I wonder what I would do in the same situation. RichMc

Harold,

Your discussion of Mississipian culture was very helpful to me.

The preface to my translations speaks of a string of "Stone Age Indian Tribes" and that did not sound right to me in light of some of de Vaca's accounts.

The answer to the question of the missing aligators may relate back to the climate changes. If this was a mini ice-age, the aligators may have migrated south. Could they travel across the Gulf to Cuba? Maybe there were no 'gators there when he was there. I was born in Alabama, Mobile, and remember seeing gators at a zoo/park in N'Orleans when I was a young child, before my family moved to San Jose. They were just lying around in the water, no fence or anything. We have a picture of me gazing at them. About the climate, in another place, he mentions that the indians wore capes of marten fur; I thought that martens were found in places like Wisconsin or Minnesota.

My daughter is an amateur geologist; she is searching the web for mention of volcanic activity in the 1520's.

The record of the Englisth and French in dealing with Native Americans is no better than the Spanish. The English at Jamestown were equally inapt as settlers and the early history includes many instances of unfair and intollerant dealing with the Indians. As with the Narvaez expedition these incidences most often led to disaster for the English.

In the case of the French, I am not familiar with their early history in Canada or in New Orleans. However, in 1684 three French Ships thinking Matagorda Bay on the Central Texas coast (Not far from the de Vaca landing) was the mouth of the Mississippi deposited 200 hapless French (would be)colonists. This expedition was the La Salle colony. They too were the equal of the Spanish in Florida and the English at Jamestown.

If ever any one needed help from the natives, it was here. Yet La Salle needing canoes found a ready source. He stole what was needed from the Indians. This set the stage for the failure of the colony. Four years later after disease, hunger, and guerrila and civil warfare had reduced the 200 to 20 the karankawas Indians finished them off.

This is the source for the inclusion of the French Flag of the monarchy (not the tricolor) as one the the six flags of Texas.

During historical times alligators have been found along the Gulf Coast from East Texas, through Louisana, Mississippi, Alabama, and of course particularly in Florida.

I understand they can not tolerate salt water at least that was the conclusion of John James Audubon. In 1826 as he was about to embark on the Dellos for Europe Ausubon purchase a small one in New Orleans and took it with him. Since sailing ships were always short of fresh water he substituted sea water. The creature promptly died. He concluded it was the sea water that was responsible for its death.

There were two specific aspects of de Vaca's account that I had some problems with. One dealt with cannabilism on the part of some of the Spanish troops, the other with infanticide practiced by one of the tribes.

I wonder if he threw in the cannabilism just to make a point about the quality of leadership of the expedition in contrast to his leadership of the others.

I know cannabilism is not as rare as we might think. I think it was taboo with most tribal people and when it was practiced was part of a ritual of one kind or another but not a survival technique as it was for the Spanish (and the Donner party and others on the American frontier)

I have also read of various tribal peiple who practiced infanticide for one rerason or another but think the general pattern of tribal behavior was just the opposite, to treasure children. But I have never run across another instance where both sexes of children were systematically slain.

I wonder if de Vaca wasn't adding to his case that these people needed to be converted and saved.

Let's recap. You have been assigned to participate in an expedition of discovery for your king. First off, you are hit with a hurricane. Then, through various combinations of circumstance, you are left on foot in a hostile land with no resources of ;your own, dependent on the indiginous population for your survival. Through attrition over time, your force is reduced to three plus one servant. And now you have to write the report to your king explaining what happened during those ten long years. All-in-all, this account is not too badly done. Self-serving? Of course. Fuzzy on details? Certainly. (As someone who can barely remember last week, let alone ten years ago, I am impressed.) True? I am skeptical.

Sorry, I've been away the last two days. I have two additional posts I would like to make concerning the Florida phase of the de Vaca account. Then I will post additional material supplementing Jim's post #49 concerning cannibalism among the Natives.

This first post will concern a "first contact" story in which the Powhatan Indians who lived on the South shore of Chesapeake Bay first met the Spanish in 1661and some 45 years later, the English. What makes this story unique is that a single individual figured in the drama that covered almost a century. The material posted here will be severely condensed. For details of this story readers are urged to check their library for Chapter 2 of the following book which is my source: Bridenbaugh, Carl, "Jamestown- 1544-1699," Oxford University Press, N.Y. 1980, ISBN 0-19-502650-0.

The lead actor is an Indian named Opechancanough. It is thought that he was born about 1544 on an island that later became the site of the English settlement known as "Jamestown."

In 1561 when Opechancanough was about 16 years old three Spanish ships returning to Spain stumble on the entrance to the bay and were observed by the Indians. A high level Indian delegation visited the Spanish flag ship of the Admiral, Don Pedro Mendez de Aviles. The young Opechancanough was in the party and so impressed the Spanish that Don Pedro pleaded with the chief to allow him to take the boy to Spain to be presented in Court and for education. The offer included the Admiral's oath that he would return the boy in a few years. Surprisingly the chief consented.

In Spain the Indian proved a ready learner impressing the Court and the clergy to who he was assigned for education. He learned the Spanish language and the basics of the Catholic religion. The Clergy were opposed to allowing the boy to be returned to his people on the grounds that he would return to devil worship. Finally after three or four years Don Pedro obtained the Kings order to allow the return. So Opechancanough again crossed the Atlantic. At the first landfall in Mexico the local Archbishop again blocked the return and for several years the young Indian was held in Mexico. When he was finally allowed to depart, the pilot was unable to find the entrance to Chesapeake Bay. They returned to Spain for a second time. But Don Pedro persisted and finally the return was effected after near a decade of living with the Europeans.

This time three Dominican Friars accompanied Opechancanough to look after his faith. The father of Opechancanough had died and had been succeeded by another of his sons. Opechancanough resumed his life as an Indian. Prince. In a short time his Indian traditions emerged over his newer Christian ones. As was customary among chiefs, Opechancanough began a household that included multiple wives. This of course shocked his Spanish confessors who rebuked him with demands that he limit himself to one. Violence broke out and the Dominicans were killed.

For the next 30 years Opechancanough lived the life of a Chief. his European cultural experience apparently forgotten. I think he eventually succeeded his brother as the heredity high chief. As time past the Indian lifestyle on Chesapeake Bay changed drastically. In 1607 when Opechancanough was about 60 the English came. Those interested in more details of Opechancanough's interface with the English are urged to seek the source previously cited. For now I will conclude by noting that in 1622 Opechancanough's plan to wipe out the English came close to succeeding. It was only that the English obtained timely intelligence of a pending attack that saved James town and the surrounding mainland plantations. Over the nest 20 years, European superiority in resources gradually decimated the Indians. The Oprchancanough saga and his life finally ended in 1644 when the centenarian Chief was taken prisoner. He was assassinated by a shot in the back fired by an English Soldier while he was being transported through a street at Jame

The building of these boats and the sailing of them some 400+ miles around the Gulf from North Flordia to Central Texas emerges to me as almost beyond belief. First they had to make the forge used to make the tools from their armor, weapons and other military items. This included major wood working tools such as saws. How did these people who had exhibited previously no particular aptitude do it?

According to the account they are described as boats (nor rafts or dugouts)which require calking and the sealing of the seams with pitch which they made from pine sap. They had to saw the lumber from timber. Even the containers to carry their fresh water were devised from the leg skins of the horses slaughtered and eaten while the construction was in progress.

For once the Spanish were lucky as they embarked in late September, the height of the hurricane season. But none came. It was a winter norther that caused their undoing in December at or near Galveston. That they got that far as they did is amazing as de Vaca tells us the gunwales of their boats extended only one xeme above the water (5 to 6 inches). Believe me that is not enough for the back bays, but they passed the open Gulf. And each boat was overloaded with almost 50 men each.

I am inclined to rank this voyage even though it did not achieve its goal right up there with that of Captain Bligh of HMS Bounty who made it from the South Pacific to the Dutch settlements in the East Indies when set adrift by mutiners in the late 18th century.

Harold, those are absolutely fascinating posts!!!

In general I got the impression that the events of cannibalism were reported "Matter of Factly" as obvious necessities under the circumstances.

Best

LJ

Jackie,

I don't think it is quite accurate to characterize Estaban (spelling differs in different versions) as a "servant."

He was a black slave of Dorantes, and after the group reached Mexico City he was actually sold to Mendoza who used him in some expeditions to find the seven cities of gold.

On one of these expeditions Estaban was killed by the Indians for having violated one of the Indian women without tribal permission.

Interestingly the various reports of sexual conduct on the part of the Spaniards in that expedition concentrate on the actions of Estaban although it is hard to believe that the practice of using Indian women was not widespread, especially since the practice was often initiated and approved by the Indians themselves.

The Karankawa Indians lived along the Texas Coast from Galveston Island South to the Nueces Bay (Corpus Christi) area. They consisted of many small bands of wandering gatherers moving among the many barrier islands through the Bays to the mainland depending on the time of year and the availability of food. They are now extinct.

During the 18th century they acqired the reputation of being cannibals. This reputation was based on hearsay reports. The early writers were simply repeating as fact unsubstantiated reports of others. W.W. Newcomb in his mid 20th century overview of Texas Indians cites the de Vaca experience to discount the charge. Newcome cites the horror the Indians expressed when the Spanish ate their dead companions. (Newcomb, W.W., "Texas Indians, University of Texas Press, 1961,pp 77-78). I do not recall any account of the practice in the published Journals of the several late 16th and 17th century Spanish expeditions through the area. (Foster, William C., Ed. "Spanish Expeditions Into Texas- 1689-1768," University of Texas Press, Austin, 1995, ISBN 0-292-72488-.

Likewise there are no reports of cannibalism among the Karankaws coming out of the 1684-88 La Salle colony. Though it was the Karankawas who masscered the surviving French colonists, they as was the custom, preserved the lives of several childern. Fifteen years later the Spanish ransomed these people who eventually returned to Europe with the facial tattoos of the Karankawas.

Having given the defense, I must say I do not have much doubt but that the Karankawas did particpate in occasional cerimonial cannibalism and that they on occasion were quite barbarous in their dealings with a weaker enemy. This was often the practice in primitive North America. In Texas such currently well respectected peoples as the Caddo and Lipan Appache are known to have indulged. such customs

My conclusion is that if canibalism was practiced in any way it was cerimonial and certainly not a usual source of food for day to day substanced.

This is very interesting. I have mostly read about the Western Indians. Some of the tribe names are now sounding familiar.

Did we put the many different names on the tribes?

I wonder how much of what I think I know about our first settlers is based on stereotypical mythologizing. Everybody know about the fierce eastern indians, the fine nations; bloodthirsty, slaughtering the innocent settlers. Then we have the fierce plains indians, riding their horses, slaughtering the innocent pioneers treking West. The southwest had more passive indians, Zuni, Hopi, Navajos. We had our peaceful Coast Indians, Miwok, Modoc, Maidu (of Ishi fame), etc., who were meek hunter-gatherers. They, in turn, were slaughtered by the fierce Spanish Padres, who established the string of 21 missions from San Diego to Solano.

Anyway, it is a reach from those folks de Vaca live among to the Wounded Knee era.

Jackie,

Slaughter???

You realy must read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee"

The official genocide practiced by the United States against the native Ameerican population makes Bosnia look like "Sunday-School"

Best

LJ

LJ: I was talking about societal stereotypes. I have read Wounded Knee. My comment was an awkward attempt at linking reality, in the first instance de Vaca's account, with what we have been "fed" ; from de Vaca's hunter-gatherers, naked, somewhat innocent (of the power of de Vaca's God, if not much else), we will leap to the confrontation between the mighty US government and those poor refugees at Wounded Knee. Pastoral on the one hand and brutal on the other. Both views reality. Fuzzy logic, I guess.

I think it is an oversimplification to characterize any particluar tribe as bloodthirsty or as peaceful or as innocent victims or to characteize any government as oppressive and genocidal.

Rhea,

I had real problems with "Blood Brothers" not because I wasn't sympathetic to the Apache and the culture so well portrayed there but because throughout the book the prejudice against Mexicans was obvious and evident. A prejudice that continues in the southwest anglo culture.

I have problems with Dee Brown's book as well because I view it as more polemic than history.

Another book I read recently is "Black Indians" that purports to document the many areas of contact between African slaves and tribes. It is interesting because it sheds light on an area not covered very well in the history, but it too tends toward the polemic view.

Objective history is hard to come by in this area.

Certainly de Vacas account has to viewed in light of his audience and purpose and not taken as valid historical evidence.

Jim: The Apaches here are two people. One a public person who tries to say what they think we want them to say, and the other person who knows and will die for the truth as their legends tell it. They have a bitter hatred of the Spanish because of the first meetings of what was to them the invading foreigner. They were later to find the same ruthlessness from us. They had a legend of a white God who was to come and lead them. The Spanish turned out not to be that GOD. Their bitterness toward us, the invaders, is very real. Their triumph over us in any way is celebrated. It is only occasionally they will tell their legends to an outsider. It happens rarely and only after long association and many testings. During this entire time of testing, the Indian functions--as they think we expect. I think the most pitiful interaction is when an Indian--wealthy in his own right and with all the access to his tribes wealth with pretend to be the 'downtrodden, unhealthy, poor' indigenous that is begging for crumbs. Some think we expect it. Some work this attitude to perfection, they can hardly wait to get where they can laugh. They laugh as we gamble. They can't buy whiskey. We can't gamble except on their sovereign land. One said to me, we can't fight with guns, we'll take the thing they love the most--their money. Then we'll buy the land back. The prejudice between the Spanish and the Indian, remember, I know only here where I have been able to talk with each, is unbelievable. Both welcome, intermarry, and have ties with the Black race, but they don't mix with each other. The Spanish say the Indians tried to take THEIR land away from the Spanish, and the Indians know the Spanish robbed them of THEIR land.

Another thing about the 'avenging' Indians. Teachings about their God was not the same as our teachings. We have: "Vengeance is mine, I will repay" as one of our teachings. They were taught not to bother their God with the little things, they were to take care of that for themselves. They were taught never to pray against another person. They were to take of vengeance on their own.

It's very true, there is not valid history about this time and era. We tell it like we want to remember and the natives tell it as they remember.

I'm reading GOD GAVE US THIS COUNTRY, subtitled TEKAMTHI AND THE FIRST AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by Bil Gilbert, to say it is a different side of the history of that era would be an understatement.

Rhea,

Thanks for those insights on modern tribal life.

I think whaty you are telling us is that Indians are very human and share universal virtues and universal failings of being human.

Rhea, thankyou I enjoyed your last post ,it was very much "on the mark". Im just now reading Bury my heart at Wounded Knee, and I must say Dee Brown really has put some research together. Jim if Dee Brown's book is a little painted towards the indian's view(which may be) you have to concede that our forefather's wiped out a good many tribes in search of gold and land.I don't want to list all of them but it is considerable. And we have all heard and read that "the only good indian is a dead one" My message from this book is the horrible way that the indian was treated from the outset,was not brought on by his actions but by the whites,and the Spanish. Jackie, it is recorded that most of the savagery was committed by the white's before the indian's retaliated. It is very easy to have hindsight and condem both sides for not restraining themselves and negotiate properly. They were certainly different times and the point of view of both sides were understandable,but I can't abide with the attitude that the indian can't be educated so therefore he must be killed so we can progress further into his ocupied lands. The facts are there,this government did renage on practically all of their treaties. Whether this was done by law or by someone enforcing the law it most certainly was done. I can't wait to finish the book so I can get an overall picture. Jackie the first indians that the plymouth colony encounted were very friendly and helped them,if they didn't they would not have survived the first winter. Rhea if you recommend that book i will get it next. Rich McC

Here are a few comments on recent posts:

Rhea Coleman #56 & #61. I think we did in many cases establish English tribal names that did not accurately reflect the name used by the tribe. Was there not an earlier post calling attention to this?

I too found your comment on the present day Apache people interesting and timely. It caused me to do an Internet search on the name Apache. There were many hits including some for sites of present Apache Indian Organizations. I looked for information on some of the Apache sub-groups such as the Mescalero and Chincahua which I believe were the principal sub-groups in the Southwest during the last century. But I found no mention or reference to these tribal names. Jackie,in your experience do these tribal sub-group names still have significance today?

Jackie Lynch #57 and Jim Olson #60. I agree with Jim's comments in #60 that tribes can not easily be divided into "peaceful" and "warlike" categorys. The Karankawas saved the helpless Spanish survivors but kept them as slaves. A hundred and seventy years later they wiped out the La Salle colonists. Albeit in the French case the Europeans started out by appropriating Indian canoes. In the de Vaca case, could the utter helplessness of the Spanish survivors and their obvious inability to do the Indians harm have been a consideration?

Later in Texas the newly arrived immigrants, the Commanche, in the 18th century drove the Lipan Apache from their prairie hunting ground, into the hills. The Lipan retaliated against the neighboring Coahuiltecans by sending war parties to harass these simple gathering peoples who reacted by moving into the Missions giving up their native lifestyles for the lot of European peasants.

Incidentally in Texas I know of no evidence pointing to the Spanish Missionaries as guilty of Indian genocide. They seemed sure in their own minds that their program was for the good of the Indians. It was only through the indirect effect of their presence in the form of European disease that caused Indian suffering and many deaths.

On the "peaceful" or "warlike" issue there seem to me to be many shades of gray between the black and white of the extremes.

Harold,

I think like many tribal names the name Apache originated as the name for "enemy" used by another tribe.

In this case I think it was a Pima word but it is difficlt to pin these things down

The word "Sioux" for example is genrally recognized as a word used by some other tribes signifying enemy or some variation of it.

An Ojibway (Chippewa- Annishanabe) friend of mine says it means "vile treacherous snake" in his language and the memory of the Ojibway-Sioux enmity is still strong in tribal legend and history and continues overtly in political battles over territory for competing casino land in the Minneapolis-St. Paul market area.

I guess I don't share the view that Dee Brown's research was very credible.

I am on the road now using a laptop and away from my library at home so can't document that very well.

I would never attempt to justify what Europeans did to the Indians any more than I would attempt to justify much of what many tribes did to each other (or to Euorpeans). But I am offended by historians who use partial and distorted views of history to promote a cause.

Dee Brown is not one of my favorite historians as you might guess.

Jim: So who do you like? Can we get nearer the truth? My comments were, probably, offensive, but were meant to stir the pot. I guess it is bubbling.

The California Indians were used like slaves by the padres. Not consciously genocide, like we are seeing in places like Kosovo. The result was decimation of the tribes. Have any of you read Ishi? He was the lone survivor of his tribe, discovered around 1910. Eventually he wound up at UC Berkeley where anthropologist Dr. Kroger put him on display, with a mock up of his hut, etc. (Dr. Kroger's daughter is Ursula K. Le Guin, noted author of such science fiction classics as Left Hand of Darkness.) It has been many years since I read the book.

Jim, you said it about the virtures and the less than virtues of the Indians--could we add and the Europeans, the Spanish, part of Europe to be sure, the Hienz 57 variety people like me. We are all one. There is no difference, just the position on the path, that's all.

This has been a wonderful discussion for me. I hadn't delved into the Eastern Indian history. This has been so rich here, and I live in the midst of it.

Harold's posting there being no history of the priest in Texas being less than fatherly, caused head scratching. I'm going to read again about the 'recorded' history here. Perhaps it wasn't altogether the priests, but it was the Spanish that travelled with the priest that caused the problems, such as the mutilations, the punishment of removing a foot from all the conquered men from Acoma. I'll have to search that. I'm afraid I thought the priests were approving such action if not perpetuating it.

I mis-spelled Ishi's anthropologist; it is Kroeber, not Kroger. CRS strikes again.

Jackie,

I think the entire area of Indian History right now is in a little bit of a turmoil with the traditionalist (white and Indian) vs the revisionsists.

There is no doubt about the many ways Eurpoeans of various cultures used the indians for their own means and grossly misused them- tortue- slavery- and even in many cases outright genicide.

But it is also true that some tribes saw the coming of the white man as a way to garner new allies against their traditional indian enemies.

In fact many of the major vicories in the so called Indian wars were really vistories of one tribe allied with the whites aginst other tribes. Often the whites having won battles with the aid of Indian allies would then turn on their allies (Andrew Jackson was very good at this)

The DeVaca account mentions at least one occasion when a tibe saw the Spanish as a possible way to get at another tribe.





The French in Wisconsin had a reputation for treating Indians well, intermarrying- etc. But in the 17th-18th century they engaged in wholesale genoicide against a particular tribe (mu notes are at home) using one tribe to annihilate another in the fur trade competition.

But the claim that the Europeans all engaged in genocide across the board is highly doubtful.

The destruction of the buffalo was an admitted attempt to eliminate Indians by removing their food source, and there are many examples- But the claim that whites deliberaltely spread small pox in some tribes is questionable, especially when it was to the advantage of Eupoeans to maintain a healthy Indian population to supply the fur trade.

Contrary to much western (and eastern) myth-the main source of furs was the Indian trade with most hunting and trapping done by Indians and even in the case of the Buffalo (contraty to "Dances with Wolves") the horse and rifle in Indian hands was also a major source of slaughter of the bison.

But all of these things changed over time as different aspects of white intrusuion came into the picture- fur trade-settlement- mining- etc.

It is a highly complex history.

Another myth is the success of the genocide.

It did not work in the long run as there are more Indians in North America now than at any time in history.

But their unque tribal identity and culture are being destroyed or gone- and telelvsion is doing more to do this that any of the historical factors including the infamous Indian schools and overt attempts to destroy language and culture.

Come to think of it it is destroying more than Indian culture.

In message #69 Jim Olse wrote:

But it is also true that some tribes saw the coming of the white man as a way to garner new allies against their traditional indian enemies.

The folowing example from the Lipan Apache/Spanish period illustrates this point:

In 1757 the Spanish began a Mission to serve the Lipan Apache on the San Saba river northwest of San Antonio. It was a major undertaking involving over a hundred Spanish troops and some 200 women and children dependents and other auxiliaries. A presidio and a mission building were raised on sites about 3 1/2 miles apart. This was in deference to previous unfavorable experience at other missions where close proximity of the soldier to the Indians had proved negative.

The mission was the project of Father Alonso de Terreros and was to be largely financed during its first 3 years by his cousin, Pedro Romero de Terreros. This mission was thought to be in response to the overtures of the Lipan. The Lipan had immigrated into Texas over a century earlier. They were buffalo hunters and took possession of the Central Texas prairie east of Austin and San Antonio as their hunting ground. About the beginning of th 18th century the Comanche came further south into the same area. Since the Comanche traveled in larger bands than the Lipan the later were usually out numbered when the two confronted each other on the prairie. The result was the two tribes became bitter enemies and the Lipan was forced to move to the west to the less favorable hunting grounds of the hills west of Austin and Northwest of San Antonio.

Father Terreros and the five or six subordinate priests opened the new Mission for business but there were no Apache customers. In reality the Spanish had badly misinterpreted the signals from the Lipan which had led to the founding of the mission. In reality all the Lipan wanted was trade goods, presents and the prospects of gaining a strong technically well equipped ally against the Comanche. Because of the cool reception several of the Padres were returned to San Antonio and plans to add two additional missions in the area were abandoned. It is said that in its existence of less than one year, the Mission failed to attract a single Lipan neophyte. At one time a large hunting party appeared but none would even enter the mission. Apaches during raids on Commanche and other enemies also seem to have deliberately left behind Spanish trade articles as evidence of their ties to the Spanish mission. Furthermore scouts may have interpreted the appearance of the mission and presidio as proof of a close alliance.

The Comanche reaction was to form an alliance with other tribes including kiowa and the East Texas Caddo. In March of 1758 a large war party stormed the undefended Mission. The distance between the presidio and the mission and the woman and children at the presidio prevented the Spanish commander from sending aid. The Indians killed Father Terreros and another Priest, Father Santiesteban and six others. Miraculously another priest and several Spanish soldiers escaped. This ended the Spanish missionary presence among the Lipan; it also ended the Lipans' contrived shield from their Comanche enemy.

Several years back while in Houston I visited the Houston Museum of Fine Arts. In one of the galleries I chanced upon a single large painting. It must have been at least 10 X 15 feet in size. It featured two full sized figures of two Franciscan Priests. In the background was the artist's rendition of an Indian massacre. Two boxes sort of the nature of the dialog boxes used by modern cartoonist to give speech to their characters gave in Spanish biographical data on the two pictured Priests. I recognized the words were referring to Fathers Terreros and Santiesteban and the Comanche raid on the San Saba Mission.

It seems that after the massacre, Father Terreros' cousin in Mexico had commissioned the painting of this picture as a memorial to the fallen priests. It was in Houston after it had allegedly been illegally exported from Mexico and was being displayed while the matter was in litigation in the U.S. Court of Claims.

I have just received an E-Mail from Ginny telling of the death this morning of L.J. Klein at his home in Kentucky. A memoral service is scheduled for Friday at Lexington KY. L.J. has made several contributions to this discussion and has long been an enthusiastic leader and participator in many book discussions. In respect of his memory, I ask that we temporarily suspend discussion here until after the funeral. Let us resume on Saturday, Feb 20th.

We will miss you L.J!

Harold

One of the values of the de Vaca account that Harold has suggested is that in spite of its limitations it gives us a first view of some of the cultures of early southwestern tribal history. Thus we have a base, however shaky, for much that has been learned since about these cultures.

Another way to view this relationship is to use what we now know about the various tribal cultures to provide speculative fill-in for some of the missing or obfuscated portions of the narrative.

I am thinking particularly in terms of any personal relationships de Vaca or other survivors may have had with individual tribal members, friendships made, enemies encountered, romantic or even domestic interludes.

We know he and others were sometime slaves, but we learn little about what that meant exactly in terms of the tribal life.

Was a slave considered property to be sold and exchanged as Estaban was in Spanish culture? I think there are hints that slaves could be ransomed- returned to the tribe they originated from.

Was a slave part of the tribe he or she was held by? If so what role did they play in tribal life?

The subplot of Lope de Oviedo interests me from this point of view. We learn that it took de Vaca several years to persuade Oviedo to leave the tribe he was living with (as de Vaca visited it in his role as a trader) and when he finally left with de Vaca he and de Vaca were ill treated by a neighboring tribe they met and Oviedo returned (with some women) to his original tribe following that incident.

Was Oviedo simply afraid as de Vaca implies to venture further toward finding the "Christian" world or had he become assimilated into the tribal world?

We know that tribes often did assimilate members from the outside- usually women, however.In fact, there is evidence that some of the women captured by tribes during the frontier period became quite assimilated, took tribal husbands, and lived a fairly happy domestic tribal life- some expressing regret when they were eventually "rescued."Some of the male children captured during frontier times became tribal members and even tribal leaders.

A diversion here- When Elizabeth Custer wrote her series of memoirs depicting her life with Custer she noted that when the troops went off to battle they sometimes left a loaded pistol with the wife to use on herself if captured to avoid " a fate worse than death"- but in spite of her loyalty to Custer in every other regard she indicates she would have declined using it.

All we know of Oviedo's eventual fate is that de Vaca heard no more of him. Maybe some of oviedo's genes are still coursing around through the branches of various tribal family trees.

It is not out of character that one of de Vaca's central points of interest in tribal life centered on tribal warfare. But he also appears to have had a interest in domestic culture as he mentions on several occasions details of that aspect of tribal life. We learn that the women were central to the household (a general Indian pattern) and could shed husbands at will- (a modern Navajo wife simply puts the husbands saddle outside the hogan- then does the civil divorce later.)

We learn of the taboo against a husband talking to or even seeing a mother-in-law, a tribal custom in may tribes even to this day.

We learn that some survivors were killed because they moved from one family to another, but we don't learned of the social structure of clans so common in much of tribal life. Maybe there is a connection.

We learn quite a bit about child rearing- the prolonged period of nursing common to tribal culture.

One wonders if de Vaca's interest in these domestic aspects of tribal life didn't come from at least some direct personal involvement in tribal domesticity.

It is interesting to speculate; but, of course, such speculation leads us from history to fiction.

Jim. You've said a great deal here and you raise many good questions. I of course see nothing too wrong with using research based on archeology and other modern methods to interpret ambiguity or to fill in the gaps in the de Vaca account. Likewise material from the de Vaca account might be useful in checking and interpreting facts discovered by modern research methods.

I might wonder whether the Indians themselves considered de Vaca their slave. It was after all de Vaca's word used to describe a status well known to him through his culture. But after just a bit of thought, what other word would fit his situation. When you are assigned a multitude of manual domestic tasks such as scraping hides and you are beaten when your performance does not measure up to expectations, the word, "slave," does seem to fit. Incidentally de Vaca ate the scrapings off the deer hides he was working on and welcomed the additional food the task provided.

We know that tribes often did assimilate members from the outside- usually women, however, In fact, there is evidence that some of the women captured by tribes during the frontier period became quite assimilated, took tribal husbands, and lived a fairly happy domestic tribal life- some expressing regret when they were eventually "rescued." Some of the male children captured during frontier times became tribal members and even tribal leaders.

An example of a white woman assimilated into an Indian tribe is Cynthia Ann Parker who in the early 1840's was captured as a child by the Comanche after a war party raided her Texas home and killed her family. She grew up a Comanche, married a Comanche and bore Comanche children. She was then "rescued" by Texas Ranger and returned to her family. This latter event was more of a trauma than the first event. She could not adapt. She did not live long after her return.

Her son was known as Quanah Parker. He later became the Comanche chief and is credited with bringing his people to terms with the reality of the 20th century situation. It is said he made quite a hit at the 1904 inauguration of Theodore Roosevelt.

We learn quite a bit about child rearing- the prolonged period of nursing common to tribal culture.

I understand the planes tribes typically kept their children confined to cradle boards for as long as 2 years. In our Lipan mural at the ITC a child of about this age is pictured hanging on a limb while its mother works at her task. They were safer this way though it must have delay early ability to walk.

Hare are a couple of observations on the lifestyle of the coastal Indians base on the de Vaca Account:

Healing: In Chapter 15 the Spanish profess to have been reluctant to become doctors. I suppose I can see why! In the back of their minds was the thought that failure might involve something more fundamental than a mal-practice law suite. In fact earlier after an outbreak of disease the question of Spanish blame had apparently been discussed. The fact that the Spanish too were effected seems to have weighed the issue in the Spanish favor.

But the Indians persisted. According to de Vaca they apparently saw the Spaniards as "powerful men certain to have greater power and properties." The Indian approach to medicine seems particularly primitive even in comparison with the 18th/19th century plaines tribes. The common procedures used involved blowing on the effected body part, and/or perhaps an application of a red-hot rock. To these methods the Spaniards added the Lords prayer and a hail Mary over the patient. The Spanish claim success in their effort, and it would seem from the Account that the Indians were satisfied. At any rate the practice continue as the survivors made their way from one tribe to another on their long journey back to Mexico.

In the making of the favorable self evaluation the de Vaca party did the same as the later Lewis and Clark party whom also became physicians to the people they met on their route across the continent. I don't remember this party reporting a single failure even the old flathead paralyzed chief who they treated for a month as they waited for the snow to melt on the mountains was reported as improved. The Karankawa Indian medicine community does seem to have had one thing in common with the modern medical profession- upon the successful conclusion a case, the fee was all the worldly possessions of lucky patient.

Standard of Living: Another point that stands out in the de Vaca account is his emphasis on the continual near starving state of the people. One meal every three days is mentioned as the norm. These people were of course wandering gatherers whose next meal was generally yet to be found. However, it would seem to me that the resources of their land should have been ample to better feed the inhabitants. There are all kinds of small easily caught fish including shellfish in the bays. Along the beach there are hermit crabs. Inland from the beach were countless varieties of small animals including deer, birds, turkey, rabbits Javilina and many more. Sure, there must have been periods of hunger, but there must have also been longer times of surplus. I think de Vaca has over emphasized the near starving condition of these people.

The Witte Museum in San Antonio has long been associated with the archaeology of the lower Pecos region of West Texas. These people are the rock artists who are reachable through the Rock Art Foundation link included in the header. The Whitte's permanent exhibit of the Lower Pecos Culture concludes that these peoples who were also wandering gatherers living in a desert environment were generally able to provide food for their families with as little as two hours of effort a day. The remainder of their day was available for relaxation, amusement and religious speculation including the painting of the cerimony pictured in the paintings on the foundation's site.

The Return Route to Mexico: Reader who are reading the Favata/Fernandez edition have the annotation in the Editor's preface concerning the difficulity of fixing the route the survivors followed back to Mexico. One of the authorities has the party following the coast south crossing the Rio Grande and then proceding up the Rio Grande later crossing again into Texas and proceding to the El Paso area into New Mexico and North Western Mexico where contact with the Spanish was finally made. Other authorities have proposed routes taking the party on several different paths through Central Texas to the El Passo area. I have said earlier that I would like to believe the Hallenbeck route as that would have had the party pass near my Guadalupe County place.

But one question persists in my mind- Why did the party not simply follow the coast line south into Mexico? They might have even followed the ancient Indian trade trails that the Spanish later used to explor Texas?

I suppose it is time we should draw this discussion to a close. It has run its planned 4-to 5 week course. Initially I throught the first half was going well along the course I had envisioned. The de Vaca Account was serving as a backdrop inspiring participants to inject aspects of Indian cultures arising out of their own experience and other reading.

During the second half, the course has not been so enjoyable. Interest has lagged mine included. In my case, I have been detached by the emergence of several personal brush fires that have required me to spend almost full time in San Antonio or here on office work not related to the discussion. This detachment on my part, I am sure has been a factor in the loss of interest by others.

In any case I suggest we draw the discussion to a close. Perhaps Jim and our several other active first half participants would like to make concluding remark summarizing their conclusion on the de Vaca Account and the native culture encountered by the early Europeans when they first encountered the peoples of the Americas.

Harold,

I think perhaps the book was a little specialized for general discussion.

Better luck with Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee later.

I think I will out of that one.

I did appreciate all of the information you added to my reading of the de Voca book.

Dear Jim and Harold and Rhea and others (sorry I don't mean to miss anyone) I enjoyed following this discussion,and I enjoyed all the comments,but as I said in the beginning I didn't think the book had that much in it to discuss for 6 weeks. Harold and Jim you both gave us the benefit of your knowledge and your experience,but much of what you imparted did not come from DeVaca's Account.(unless you read between the lines).I'm looking forward to the discussion of "Bury me at....." there is quite a lot of discussion liable to come from that book. Thanks for allowing me in to the discussion, Im going for an angioplasty on Fri the 12 so I hope everything comes out all right so I can join you in the new discussion. Rich Mcc

Hello to all just a line to let you know that I didn't need angioplasty only an angiogram. My arterys are fine and no blockages or arterial desease. Thank God talk soon! RichMcC

RichMcC, that is indeed good news and you are fortunate. Isn't it great that they can do angiograms and determine the condition of your heart.

Larry

Hey Rich, I'm really happy to hear the angiogram turnd out so well. I hope to hear a lot more from you in the coming "Bury My Heart" discussion. It has much more detail and will easily maintain discussion without the need to bring in other sources. Glad to hear you plan to join in.

I have not read "Bury My Heart" previously. I am reading it now and just finished Chapter 11 which covered one of the last Kiowa war raids in North Texas. Save for an accident of fate, it would have bagged the scalp of the Civil War General, William T. Sherman, who happened through a Kiowa trap while inspecting frontier forts.

Look forward to hearing from you all on the comming board