Island at the Center of the World ~ Russell Shorto Export

The Island at the Center of the World:
The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan, the Forgotten Colony that Shaped America
by Russell Shorto
Russell Shorto, using records discovered in old archives, has created “a gripping narrative - a story of global sweep centered on a wilderness called Manhattan."

The Dutch Colonial history, lost when the English seized Manhattan from the Dutch in 1644, was not destroyed. It is now emerging as a remarkable story containing a forgotten American Patriot and illuminating the foundations for New York City and the American culture. (Publisher)

Resources on the Internet

A Description of the New Netherlands by Adriaen van der Donck:

Remonstrance of New Netherland

QUESTIONS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION

What steps did cunning ambitious John Winthrop Jr. take to obtain a charter for Connecticut that included the territory that was New Haven and New Netherland?
What were the goals in the English “master plan” involving the whole Atlantic Rim in 1661 and 1662?
What role did George Downing, John Winthrop Jr.’s cousin, play in engineering the takeover of Manhattan by the English? How did cousin Winthrop assist Downing in the takeover?
By signing the “Duke’s Charter” in March 1664, what did King Charles II give to his brother James, Duke of York and Albany, future King James II of England? How did this affect John Winthrop’s plans for Connecticut?
How did it come about that Peter Stuyvesant gave up New Netherland in 1664 to Richard Nichols without a shot fired, an act for which Stuyvesant had to face charges of criminal neglect before the States General? Why didn’t the colonists support Stuyvesant in his defense of the colony? What reward did Nichols receive for his victory?
What happened to the Dutch, their property, their language, and their colony’s records after the English took over New Netherland? What was the attitude of the new English government in New York towards prominent Dutch merchants?
What did the “Articles of Capitulation” provide and what was so unusual about this document? What surprising role may Peter Stuyvesant have played in securing this document?
What other struggles for control occurred in New York during the 17th century?
What surprising historic events did you come across as you read the final chapters?
What “inherited features” did you find interesting?

Complete Discussion Schedule Week 6: (April 19 thru April 25) – Pages 284 thru 325 (Chpt. 14: New York, Chpt. 15: Inherited Features, Epilogue: The Paper Trail
Virtual Tour of New Netherland	Jansson-Visscher Map Discussion Leader: Marni & JoanK	New Amsterdam

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Welcome! You’re at just the right place to sign up for a discussion of The Island at the Center of the World by Russell Shorto. Our discussion will begin March 15.

Doesn’t this book title sound like a science fiction thriller? Well, it's not science fiction, but it is certainly a thriller about New Netherland and the founding of Manhattan – American history that you never learned in school.

Join JoanK and me to find out what we missed in history class. Some of you (like my husband Bob) may be descended from these original settlers and have a personal interest in finding out more about New Netherland. Please bring your own special stories. I’m imagining myself in an old New York tavern nibbling on Gouda cheese and enjoying a hearty beer….. Oh, this will be fun!

The book is available in libraries, online, and in bookstores, and comes in paperback and hard copy - even in large print! (Be sure to get the Shorto book about Dutch Manhattan. There is another book with the same title.) Please indicate by posting if you will be joining us.

Marni

Come and join us! Watch "pirates, smugglers, traders, whores and farmers" troop across these pages as the Dutch (who were actually "Dutch, English, German, French, African, Jewish, Quaker, even Turkish") found Manhattan. This is a history book that reads like a novel while maintaining both high standards of scholarship and a sense of humor. An adventure not to be missed!

Let's join Marni in that tavern, eating Gouda cheese and beer (Dutch cocoa for me!) and toasting our hearty forefathers and mothers. See you there!

I'll take hot cocoa in this kind of weather - zero degress tonight in Ohio! And I will join you in March, sounds so interesting. I know the Roosevelt family were Dutch and settled around the Hudson River. And that is the extent of my knowledge. I aim to broaden that come March.

ELLA: GREAT! I'll put another pot of cocoa on!

I'll book my passage too. Cocoa sounds fine, and the Dutch make some nice cookies to go with it.

Looks like a Dutch winter snack is Boterbiesjes - recipe included on this site Dutch colonial food history; recipes; books

Ella, Pat H, and Barbara: Welcome! This is wonderful that you will be joining us! We are going to have a fabulous discussion!

Ella: You must be freezing out there in Ohio! You folks in the midwest are really getting hit hard. We are just having our first snowstorm (actually ice storm) of the year here in CT and it's so cold!!! I helped myself to some cocoa this afternoon after I shoveled my front and back walks.

Pat H: I didn't know about the Dutch cookies. Yum! I wonder what other foods they are known for?

Barbara: I am looking forward to seeing the recipe for Boterbiesjes, but the link is not working for me.

Boterbiesjes. Aren't the Dutch words and names interesting! And long! Sometimes it reminds me of German and sometimes of a Scandinavian language. I married into the Lydecker family, a good old Dutch colonial name. It used to be spelled Lydekker. I think it means "one who tiles roofs."

Ella: I visited Eleanor Roosevelt's house Val-Kill in....Dutchess County, I believe it was, in NY. It's a national historic site today. What a fascinating place! Lots of words in New York end in "kill" which in Dutch means "stream" or "valley stream," I believe. Here's a site for Val-Kill: http://www.nps.gov/elro/

Marni

I've located the book in the library in our 'joined-at-the-hip' next door town. I plan to get over there tomorrow to pick it up. I only hope no one beats me to it.

Babi

I read this book quite a while ago. Count me in. March 15th sounds like a good date to begin, also. Now just to find it somewhere on my non-fiction shelves ... somewhere ... in the world.

Great choice, Marni and JoanK! This interesting book has a lot to offer!

Oh, good! It sure looks as if we have a quorum! And I was able to find the book in our local library - Large Print. Can read it without my reading glasses! I am thrilled about that.

We are planning a gathering in New York City in December 2008 - an anniversary of the Books first gathering in 2008. I am hoping this book will make us more aware of New York's roots, landmarks, street names, etc. A grand preparation for the 2008 gathering. Hope that YOU will be able to attend - though it is nearly two years away.

I'm in!

ah you are right the link doesn't work does it - try this and see - I know we do not usually put links out with the HTTP: but this is a short one - and then on her site if you click on the recipes and scroll down a bit the butter cookie recipe is there - http://www.peterrose.com/

Gotta run - full day today - just popping in to see the Seniornet 'news'

Babi, Mippy, and JoanP are joining us, too! Welcome, welcome!! Oh, boy, we definitely have a quorum - and what a terrific group!!

Barbara: Those recipes look delicious! Thank you. I spotted the one for "rode kool met runderlapjes" (with cabbage and beef). Wow, that looks tasty! It seems that cabbage was a very popular Dutch dish.

ELLA,PATH, BARBARA, BABI, MIPPY, JOANP: wow, this is GREAT! THIS DISCUSSION WILL ROCK!

I'm definitely going for the butter cookies (as long as you don't have to be able to spell or pronounce them to eat them -- if so, I'm dead!) They sound like some out-of-this-world shortbread cookies that ANNAFAIR makes.

One of Eliot Roosevelt's mystery stories featuring Eleanor as the detective features Valkill. It's worth a read for the picture of dignified Eleanor crawling through the bush in search of a murderer. But I can't remember the name. I'll ask in Mysteries.

And for the picture of Eleanor's mother-in-law (the mother-in-law from hell). A friend visited Hyde Park, and told me about Eleanor's bedroom. Franklin and his mother had large luxurious adjoining bedrooms. Eleanor had a converted closet, tiny and no windows, off the mother-in-laws room. If Franklin wanted to visit her, he had to go through his mother's room.

Duh (head-slap)! Jean says it's "Murder at Hyde Park" by Eliot Roosevelt. Too subtle for me.

Interesting book - I've put it on reserve at our library, and will plan to at least hang out here.

I looked up the recipe, and it's almost exactly the same at the "Scotch Shortbread" that my mother-in-law (of German heritage) made for years. The only difference is that her recipe called for a bit of vanilla extract. We rolled the dough out with one of the springerle patterned rolling pins, then cut the cookies into rectangles.

WELCOME, WELCOME MARYZ! For those of us who don't know, what is a springerle patterned rolling pin?

Sorry - here's a web site with pictures.

http://www.fantes.com/springerle.htm#pin

It's a small rolling pin with designs cut into them. We would roll the dough out with a regular rolling pin, then the last time with the patterned one. Then we cut the cookies into the rectangles to put on the baking sheet to bake. I don't make them any more, but our daughters still carry on the tradition - but only make them at Christmas-time. My MIL told me to always use real butter - that it was the only expensive ingredient in the cookies, and that they just didn't taste right without it. For years, that was the only time I ever bought "real" butter.

Springerle are rectangular cookies with bas-relief pictures on them. You roll out the dough, and then roll over the dough with a rolling pin with the pictures carved into it.

springerle molds

I've seen more elaborate designs than these.

So Pat, we posted at almost the same time, and with the same link.

Mary Z, I see we posted the same link. Great minds think alike.

Have you noticed that Marni is always sipping spirits w/ each book?? She figures out something to go w/ each scenario - madeira, beer.......TIC,,,,lol......jean

JEAN: WELCOME! Are you going to join us?

Mary Z: Welcome! Your cookies must be beautiful! I've seen those rolling pins in stores but have never actually seen the cookies. Definitely must have butter!!!

And Pat: You found the same site!

Guess what? We got our word "cookie" from the Dutch word "koekje." One of many many words that are part of our American vocabulary that we inherited from the Dutch. (Their "j" is pronounced like a "y.")

Jean: I do seem to be a bit of a tippler, don't I?

I do think it's fun to find out about the spirits drunk by our book characters. It seems the Dutch made great beer - just think of Heineken, originally made in Amsterdam.

Yes, drinking was important in colonial times!
And is beer important in the Netherlands? Look at this
link

Proost, Mippy. (That's "Cheers" in Dutch.)

Count me in. I've always found NYC history fascinating (Peter Styversant in particular). I'm so glad someone has written a book about it!

Since I am a genealogist and my entire paternal line came from the New Amsterdam-New York -Albany- etc area, I will at least try to keep up with all of you.. Probably more of a lurker depending on our schedule this spring. A new book that helps us Dutch out with our perennial complaint that the English got credit for everything.. Did you know that in upstate New York, Dutch was by far the most common language right up to the early 1800's..

Welcome, Suec and Stephanie! Join us here in the Manhattan tavern where we're enjoying hot cocoa, beer, and Gouda cheese. A warm fire is crackling.

Suec: You'll definitely be seeing Peter Stuyvesant in our book.

Stephanie: How interesting that you're a genealogist and that you have Dutch colonial heritage. Maybe you're related to my husband! His first Dutch ancestor who came over to New Netherland from Holland - a Lydekker, or Leydekker - worked for Peter Stuyvesant.

Marni

SUEC AND STEPHANIE: WELCOME. Pour beer or cocoa (your choice), and sit awhile.

Stephanie: now that the records from New Amsterdam are mostly translated, can you get a flood of new information about ancesters?

Oh my I am going to miss this discussion. I leave for Italy on March 15. However I am going to read the book and will look in on the discussion when I return home on March 25.

The book looks really interesting.

Joan Grimes

Most of the records have been translated for years. They just were not available unless you traveled to Albany or New York City. I have probably over 150 books all about the Dutch in New York and then traced back to Holland. The problem is discovering the correct ancestor. The dutch did not use patrionics.. until the English insisted, so the names are quite confusing. I am related to all of the old families in the Albany-Schenectady area.. A lot came into New Amsterdam and then moved upstate for the beaver trade. Looking for the book.. Still in Hard cover??

I ordered a paperback copy from Amazon for $11.32 plus postage.

I found the book on cd at Amazon and ordered it. I needed it on cd because Of my eyes.

I am really looking forward to listening to it.

Joan Grimes

Sorry you're missing most of the discussion, JOANG, but I would too to go to Italy. Tell us all about it when you get back.

STEPHANIE:I also got the book in paperback from Amazon, with no problem. Many libraries also have it.

100 books. Great. I hope you will share your knowledge with us. I'm looking forward to learning a lot.

JoanG: Italy! How fabulous! And I'm so glad you'll be reading Island even though you'll miss some of the discussion. That's OK. You'll be here for at least a portion of it because we are not even beginning until March 15.

JoanK and I are just now working on the reading/discussion schedule. We'll get this to everyone shortly.

Stephanie: Your geneology research sounds so fascinating. What is patrionics? (Sounds like a word I should know from a Latin root!)

Marni

Found the book in paper in Borders.. Hooray. Patrionics.. No last name. They used their fathers name as their second name and sometimes where they lived. Very common in Europe..at that point anyway. My fathers name was Stephen, so I would have been Stephanie Stevens.. They used so few given names that they are hard to trace.. There were more Johannes and Jan ( same name basically) that you litterly must trace each and every one to figure who you wanted and why. Last names were strictly the aristocracy..Lords of the Manor.. Renssalaer is a good example.

Wow, that sounds like a complicated system. Do you know what the "van" means, or "van der" in Dutch names? Reminds me of "son of" or something like that - or "from."

actually it commonly meant.. from.. ...I have several vans, some are the area, but sometimes it is like a nickname and sort of stays with them.. Van Voorst.. Voorst is a place in the Netherlands,, Storm Van Der Zee was actually born at sea.. But the name stuck.. The Dutch were quite casual about last names and even first ones. It was not unusual for two brothers to develop different last names and tracing a family gets very very touchy. Then later as the English moved into the area, it gets funny.. I have an ancestor who was baptised Bata ( which sometimes is translated to Elizabeth), but she got fancy and b ecame Bathsheba.. Always causes me a smile when I think of that dutch matron who wanted a very very unusual name.

That's interesting, STEPHANIE. I have always understood that in German, Von indicated a person of the nobility, esp. in Austria. My great-grandfather emigrated to America back before WWI, at least. He dropped the 'Von' on settling here.

I read a journal he kept, which included a patriotic song about America fighting the 'Huns'. I always thought his anti-German fervor was due to the bad history between Germany and Austria in the pre-WWI years. I don't know how old he was when he came here, but his journal revealed that he thought of himself as American.

Babi

Our link above (map) just came in handy for me. When you click on it, not only do you see a large map of New Amsterdam, but you can find and listen to Dutch words and see a small dictionary. I looked up "van" under "Everyday Dutch for basic reading and conversation" and found it means in Dutch:

van - of, 's

the Mayor of Amsterdam - de burgemeester van Amsterdam

Pete's mug - de mok van Piet

etc.

Marni

Interesting map! "The Wall" = Wall Street??

Suec -- Just curious. Where do you see "The Wall"?

Yes, that wall is now Wall Street, which I know from reading, not from this map. Nowadays we say
"Wall Street Journal" as if it had no historical meaning, but it does!

I've started re-reading the book, and it sure makes you think about the polyglot nature of NYC, then and now!

Oh - I'm a bit dense here this morning. I should have remembered that was what it was first called.

I'm so glad we will be reading about New Amsterdam/New Netherland and finding out more about places like Wall St. There is a great deal of interest in NYC roots today. I've been finding all kinds of tours of what is left of New Amsterdam, or what is now being discovered via archeological digs in Manhattan. I went on "The Patriot Trail" self-guided walking tour 2 years ago and it was wonderful. Here are several examples of tours going on today in case you are planning a trip to the Big Apple:

http://www.newyorktalksandwalks.com/tours_early.html

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/nycolonial/index.html

http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_104/351yearslatertour.html

http://www.ephemerapress.com/walk-downtown.html

http://www.walknyc.com/lm.htm

Marni

Marni, I would love to know about NYC.

YEAH, HATS!! I was hoping you would join us? Have you been there? I managed to live in Brooklyn for two years and learn nothing about its history. I didn't even know the battle of Brooklyn had been important until I learned it on Seniornet.

HATS!! I'm so glad you're here! I was feeling sad thinking you weren't going to join us for this book. I want to know more about NYC, too. And Brooklyn. And Albany. And Hartford. And New Jersey. Etc.

Joan, I know exactly what you mean. I grew up in New London, CT, which has a lot of history, and I know next to nothing about it except that it was a big whaling port. And one more thing. We had to learn a poem in 1st grade - "John Winthrop founded our town so dear; And 1636 was the year."

And now I've lived for 35 years in the next town north of Hartford and know next to nothing about Hartford's history. And it started as a Dutch trading post!!! So I guess that explains why there is a section of Hartford near the Connecticut River called "Dutch Point." Oh, and why they named the new civic center "Adriaen's Landing" after Adriaen Block, a Dutch explorer that Block Island was named after.

Thank you for the nice welcome. Yes, I have been to NYC. I went on a school trip. I can't remember whether it was junior high or high school. We went to the United Nations, the Empire State building. We were suppose to ride on the ferry out to the Statue of Liberty, I think. Anyway, it was too late. I never had the chance to ride the ferry. Boohoo.

Only a few of my photos developed. Some people said the photos didn't develop because of security reasons. I can't remember my lunch. I do remember my dress. It had a black and white plaid bottom with a small black jacket to match. It had a fitted waist. I have wanted to read about NYC again ever since reading about it in 1776. Plus, I should know about the Big Apple. Is it still called the Big Apple?

A long time ago I read a book about Jacob Ries. I might have his name spelled wrong. Anyway, he was a reformer. He cared a lot about NY. He wanted to make changes in the living conditions and health conditions of the poor. He was a great man.

Will we read about Harlem? I just want to know everything. I have never lived in NYC. Oh, I almost forgot to mention. After 9-11, my son and his girlfriend took a trip to NYC. He waved at us from Rockefeller Ctnr, The Today Show. Of course, I waved back from my living room.

On a sadder note, they had a chance to see that huge sinkhole left by those planes on that sad and unforgettable day.

Hats, Harlem or as the dutch put it.. Harlaam or Neu Harlaam.. It was one of the earliest areas to be settled and had a lot of French for some reason. I have some early ancestors who started there and then moved north into Westchester county,, meeting some English who tended to settle in Westchester or all the way out Island.. Breucklyn was also an early settlement. There was a ferry there and one of my ancestors had an early brewery right next to it.. No bridges then alas.Started reading the book and just love it.. There is a wonderful book.. Harlem, Its origin and Ealy Annals by James Riker.. I have a reprint of it since he discussed the early families in great detail.

Stephanie, thank you for all that good information, none of it known by me. Also, thank you for the book title. I am so glad you are here. I remember you are a Geneaologist. I think it's so wonderful and fulfilling to know about our relatives who have gone on before us. I know nothing much pass my grandparents.

Hats: Even though you missed your ferry ride on your trip to the Big Apple, there are still many ferries despite all the bridges and tunnels in NYC. A fun way to visit New York is to stay on Staten Island, park at the ferry terminal, and ride the free ferry over to Battery Park. Then you can meander around old sections of lower Manhattan or hop on the subway and head north on the island.

♫I love New York!♫♪♫

Stephanie: The Riker books sounds very interesting. I just love seeing the old spelling of Dutch-named places that still use the Dutch names (with Anglicized spelling) today. Like Haarlem and Breuckelen.

Ahah! Stephanie: Your ancestor had an early brewery! I wonder what kind of beer was brewed. Do you know anything about it?

Marni

I'm interested in historic buildings, although I don't know very much about them. Leading up to our discussion, I'll periodically link to photos of old Dutch colonial or later buildings that are on property that used to be part of New Amsterdam and elsewhere in New Netherland.

Wall St. was the street that grew next to the wall built on the northern boundary of New Amsterdam. Today, when I think Wall Street, I think of the New York Stock Exchange. The NYSE was organized back in 1792 by a group of stockbrokers. They met near the corner of Wall Street and Broad Street. The stock exchange building there today was built in 1903. Additional "rooms" have since been added. Here's a photo I took of the front of the NYSE several years ago:

"John Quincy Adams Ward, a prolific and well-known American sculptor, designed the beautiful pediment above the front entrance. Entitled Integrity Protecting the Works of Man, the classical design depicts the 22 foot figure of Integrity in the center, with Agriculture and Mining to her left and Science, Industry and Invention on her right, representing the sources of American prosperity. The waves on either extreme of the pediment symbolize the ocean-to-ocean influence of the Exchange. In 1936, due to the combined effects of the statuary’s weight ― 90 tons ― together with the ravages of pollution and flaws in the marble, the Exchange had to replace the marble figures with lead-coated replicas weighing only 10 tons."

http://www.nyse.com/about/history/1022743347410.html

More photos of the NYSE:

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM036-NEWYORKSTOCKEXCHANGE.htm

Did you know that the Dutch started joint stock companies, which let shareholders invest in business ventures and get a share of their profits - or losses?

The world's first major stock exchange came into being in Amsterdam in the early 1600's. In 1602, the Dutch East India Company issued the first shares on the Amsterdam Stock Exchange. It was the first company to issue stocks and bonds. The Dutch developed or perfected the commodities and futures markets.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/03/news/tulips.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_exchange

I read a fascinating novel about the early Dutch commodities exchange in the 17th century - which touches on tulipmania - The Coffee Trader by David Liss.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Coffee-Trader-Ballantine-Readers-Circle/dp/0375760903

Marni

Great pictures, Marni!!

I just read a book about another facet of NY History: the building of the Brooklyn bridge. The book is by David McCoulough (sp?), an author who I really like. It's a fascinating story. Ken Burns made a documentary of it which they show sometimes on PBS.

I also have read about Jacob Riis (I didn't know how to spell it either -- I had to look him up). That whole period of NY history (end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century) is fascinating. This was a period when, due to high birth rates and massive immigration, the population was growing much faster than housing or jobs could accomidate it (the population of the US literally doubled in 10 years). Cities like New York felt the brunt of this.

Here are some of Riis's photos. Keep hitting "next".

RIIS'S PHOTOS

JoanK: I read McCullough's Brooklyn Bridge last year. It was SO GOOD!!! I just loved it. My friends, Bob, and I are planning a trip to New York this spring to walk across the Brooklyn Bridge! Then we're going to the Louis Comfort Tiffany exhibit at the Met.

The Riis photos are wonderful!

Another wonderful book about Dutch commodities trading and tulipmania is The Black Tulip by Alexandre Dumas. You can read it online: http://www.online-literature.com/dumas/black_tulip/

Marni

Wow! What a bunch of photos!

My book has come, so I'm all set.

Thanks JoanK and Marni for some great information and links. I have been to Coney Island. I was a young girl. The Coney Island in the photos looks totally different.

Oh, good, Pat H and some others have their books already! I hope everyone is able to find one.

Hats: I have never been to Coney Island. I don't even know where it is. What part of New York is it in?

Marni, I don't know what part. I went with my aunt as a young child. I was just interested in hot dogs, amusement rides and sand castles.

I would love to go to New York during Christmas.

I'm so excited! I found a cool thing on the internet - my father-in-law's ancestral home in Englewood, New Jersey - a picture of it! "The oldest known land grant in the area which presently constitutes Englewood was awarded to Garret Lydecker in 1703 by the English Queen Anne. Early land grants were long strips of land extending from either Overpeck Creek or the Hackensack River to the Hudson."

This Garret Lydecker was descended from Garret Leydekker who came over from Leiden, Holland to work for Peter Stuyvesant in New Amsterdam. Later, after the English had taken over New Netherland, the family received a grant of land from Queen Anne in what became Englewood, NJ, where they built a Dutch colonial-style farmhouse. It was passed down through the family until it was burned by the British during the American Revolution. The family rebuilt it in 1803 or so.

My father-in-law, named Garrit Lydecker, was born and raised in this very farmhouse. I visited it with Bob before my FIL died some years ago. Since then, the family has been unable to take care of the old house and the town took it over.

My son is named Daniel Garrit Lydecker. This is pretty cool!

Here's the article. If you scroll down a bit, you'll see the old Lydecker Dutch colonial farmhouse.

http://www.cityofenglewood.org/history_main.html

Marni

Hats: I found something interesting about Coney Island in Wikipedia. Looks like it's in south Brooklyn - or Breuckelen! hahaha! Here goes:

"The Dutch name for the island was Conyne Eylandt, or Konijn Eiland (Rabbit Island) using modern Dutch spelling. This name is found on the New Netherland map of 1639 by Johannes Vingboon.....As with other Long Island barrier islands, Coney Island was virtually overrun with rabbits, and rabbit hunting was common until the resorts were developed and most open space eliminated.

It is generally accepted that Coney Island is the English adaptation of the Dutch name, Konijn Eiland. Coney is an obsolete and dialectical English word for rabbit. Coney came into the English language through Old French (Conil), which derives from the Latin word for rabbit, cuniculus. The English name "Conney Isle" was used on maps as early as 1690 and by 1733 the modern spelling "Coney Island" was used. The John Eddy map of 1811 also uses the modern "Coney Island" spelling.

Even though the history of Coney Island's name and its Anglicization can be traced through historical maps spanning the 17th century to the present and that all the names translate to "Rabbit Island" in modern English, there are still those who contend that the name derives from other sources. Some say that early English settlers named it Coney Island after its cone-like hills. Others claim that an Irish captain named Peter O'Connor had named Coney Island after an island in Ireland in the 1700's. Yet another purported origin is from the name of the Indian tribe (the Konoh tribe) who supposedly once inhabited it. A further claim is that the island is named after Henry Hudson's "right-hand-man" John Coleman, who was killed there by Indians."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coney_Island

Wow, Marni. How great that you were able to find pictures of Bob's family house - on the first land grant in the area. Have you seen it since the town took it over?

I once lived near Coney Island. It is at the very Southern tip of Brooklyn. We used to go there to get Nathan's hot dogs (now you can get them in the grocery store -- they're still very good), and then you could buy fish right off the fishing boats. But I don't remember going on the rides.

Breweries at that point in Manhattan or even upstate were homemade affairs. You applied to the council for apermit and could not sell on Sundays. It was a most popular way of making money or seewan or beaverskins( the most valuable) It also caused much trouble with the dutch who loved to go and sue one another. Sort of a national sport with them. They dearly loved to take each other to court on just about anything.

Stephanie: Maybe that's why my son is going to law school!!

JoanK: I was only in Bob's family's house the one time - to visit Bob's relatives after we got married. I remember they had tons of antiques in the house. My father-in-law grew up there with a brother and several sisters. When he was a teenager, he ran away and joined the Merchant Marine, then later got into advertising, married, and moved into his own home. He wasn't at all interested in the old farmhouse and just let his family keep it. They continued to live there together until all his brothers and sisters died. Bob's cousins lived there after that, but were unable to keep the place up. Eventually, they moved out and the town took it over because it was so historic. Bob and I talk every once in awhile about how we should drive there again and take a look.

Marni

Marni, I love it! Coney Island=Rabbit Island Isn't that something??? The things I don't know would make an oversized encyclopedia. I do love rabbits too. I think they are so cute. I've never had one for a pet. Did any of you see that huge rabbit on the news the other night? I have forgotten how much he weighed. It's sad that the rabbits lost their homes so that we could have a resort. Of course, that brings up environmentalist issues about places for us or places for the animals who often lose their habitats. I can tell this is going to be an exciting discussion. I ordered my book with a birthday Barnes and Noble certificate last week. I also ordered that other book, Beneath the Marble Sky about the building of the Taj Mahal.

JoanK, I bet Nathan could make some delicious hot dogs. The best hotdogs I've ever eaten were made in the Lit Brothers basement in Philadelphia. Boy, what a hotdog!!

Hats,, the dutch loved the rabbits since they provided an easy dinner??? The part of Brooklyn that was inhabited early was around the ferry area. They used small toll ferries to get around the Islands..They were just small boats of course, not what we think of as ferries. They did however cost money to use. As I remember the council gave their permission and then you could set up a ferry. I would have to check my council minutes books to see who had them.

Stephanie, I have eaten rabbit maybe once in my life. My mother never could eat lamb which I love. Whenever she tried to eat lamb, she would see the lamb jumping over a fence. Odd, I know. My family is and was odd, eccentric.

Hats: The B&N certificate was a perfect birthday present for you! You are definitely not the only one with an eccentric family.

I don't think I ever realized there would have been so many rabbits running around like that back in the day. We don't see many of them anymore. Although it seems wild animals are showing up in urban areas more and more as they have less and less space. I saw a bunny by the side of the parking lot at the Christmas Tree Shop in the middle of a large shopping mall. A red fox ran across the road right in front of me in the middle of town recently. And 2 coyotes were playing together in a friend's back yard.

My husband just emailed me to say 4 deer ran across the road in front of him as he was driving to the commuter parking lot this morning. He knicked one slightly and the car behind him hit the deer hard and his windshield broke. Gad.

Wasn't there a problem with rabbits in Australia? Were they introduced by the British or something for hunting and they reproduced so quickly that they sort of took over? Something like that?

Stephanie: This is so great having you in our discussion. You know all these little tidbits about Dutch colonial life.

The Coffee Trader by David Liss was indeed worth reading!
Marni ~ I'll bet it was your post quite a while ago that led me to it.
Thanks, everyone, for all the terrific links; I'm still catching up on them.
This is going to be a great discussion!

Mippy! You read The Coffee Trader! Wasn't that so good!!! I think I picked it up in the For Sale section of B&N. It had a great looking cover and sounded so interesting. I loved the whole thing about the main character being a Jewish trader on the commodities market in the 17th century. And a mystery besides!

I absolutely have to get my hands on another David Liss book A Conspiracy of Paper about the first London stock market crash in 1720. Liss won a bunch of awards for the book. Here's info about it:

http://www.davidliss.com/conspiracy.html

I've read A Conspiracy of Paper - a great read - and what a great understanding of how the stock market began and the relationship of banks that ended up being the unwitting promoter of the stock market. The characters are also Jewish and some of the traditions of the religion are included in the story. There is a sequel to A Conspiracy of Paper called A Spectacle of Corruption The mystery surrounding another death starts the book off with a look at the court system. I Purchased the Coffee Trader some time ago but still have not read it - I like this author and it looks like it would be a good book to read while we are reading Island...

I wonder if there are any buildings left in New York City that were built during the time of the Dutch...

Marni and Mippy and Barbara, I love the link to The Conspiracy of Paper. Also, The Coffee Trader is a good one too, I will bet. Thanks for the titles. The David Liss link is great.

Marni, I am sorry to hear about the window of the car. I have heard of deer doing that very thing.

Hitting deer can be very dangerous. Where I lived in Maryland, this was a major problem. They would wander through our development at night looking for food. My son almost hit one several times coming home from his night job.

I loved being able to see them in my back yard, which backed on woods. One doe routinely slept in my yard at night. But one of the neighborhood children became quite sick with Lyme desease (gotten from a deer parasite). So I didn't like to let my grandchildren play in back.

JoanK: Guess where my sister lives? Lyme, CT. That's the town the disease is named after. She and my brother have gotten lyme disease repeatedly. I've been tested for it but the results were negative. I believe they were given tetracycline for the disease - some antibiotic. What a horrible disease.

I remember the days when the medical community didn't believe people who got lyme disease symptoms. (It's from being bitten by tiny "deer ticks" that carry the disease.) Sometimes it gives me the creeps going to visit because deer are everywhere there and her cats and dog brings ticks in all the time. They have to do daily tick checks. Ugh! Of course, now the ticks are all over the northeast.

Barbara: I went to the library this very day and checked out the 2 Liss books A Conspiracy of Paper and the sequel!! It sounds like it's going to be about the South Sea Bubble. Wow, I have so many books going at the same time.

You asked a great question - Are there any buildings left from the Dutch NY settlement? New York City had 2 great fires in lower Manhattan that I know of. One was right after the British took over the city during the American Revolution and another in ..... 1835? I think. Both fires consumed huge sections. I wonder what's left?

I found the website of The Historic House Trust of New York City, a not-for-profit organization which preserves and promotes the 22 historic house museums located in New York City parks. Here are pictures of the old houses with a brief blurb about each. It seems to me that the Pieter Claesen Wyckoff House in Brooklyn is the only New Netherland-period Dutch colonial house in the group remaining in the NYC area. (Click on the Brooklyn button and scroll down to see it.)

Historic Houses in NY Parks

Wow, I would love to visit some of these houses!

Marni: your link caused scrolling. Could you shorten it?

I think I fixed it, JoanK. Hope that works.

Perfect!

The Poe cottage fascinated me. Because he died in Baltimore, I've always associated Poe with Maryland, not New York -- even more after reading "the Poe shadow", about his death and full of Baltimore lore (and of course after learning that the Baltimore Ravens football team was named after his poem).

Hi. I'm joining this group late so I haven't finished reading all the posts. Has anyone mentioned the fiction books written by Maan Meyers which take place in New Amsterdam? There are three that I've read, they are mysteries, and the details are fascinating. The first on is titled The Dutchman.

Hats, I grew up inthe country, belonged to 4-H and rabbits were my project for several years. So you learned to be cold blooded about them. I kept strict records.. We sold both the rabbit fur and the meat.. I ate rabbit as a kid and never once thought about it. However I had a pet lamb and my parents were kind enough to tell me that they sold him as an adult ( guess why) and when I ate lamb that winter, I really did not connect..Oh well. kids do strange things. WE have a motor coach, do a lot of traveling and it is amazing the number of wild bunnies in rv parks. No idea why, but we have seen them so many times. I loved the New Amsterdam area and also of course Albany and Schenectady. Had many ancestors to die in the Schenectady massacre, which is somewhat later than this book..Love the book so far. Learning new things, since the era discussed is earlier than all of my records. Earliest records I have would be 1638.

Hi Stephanie, I enjoy reading all your experiences. I love the sound of the word Schenectady. If that is a Dutch word, is the Dutch language a pretty one? I hope my question makes sense. Is Adirondack a dutch word?

Hats: Re "Is the Dutch language a pretty one?"

Click on "Resources on the Internet" in our Header above. Then click on "Hear Pronunciation of Dutch Colonial Names." You can hear how names of people, places, and things are pronounced in old Dutch by clicking on the word "Hear" next to any word you wish to listen to.

If you scroll down to the bottom, you can listen to longer phrases and even poems in Dutch!

Marni

Marni, thank you! The language is very pretty. I bet it's hard to say those words correctly without practice.

Mrs. Sherlock: Welcome!! We are so glad to have you join us! The Maan Meyers books sound very interesting. I'm going to have to look for them. Do you have to read them in order?

Thanks...Great site showing the old houses in New Amsterdam - looks like there are two houses from the 1600s, the one in Brooklyn and the other on Staten Island where part of that house is from 1695 - I keep thinking that some of the early small brick houses that look like town houses are old - now seeing the site you provided I realize folks would have built a house that looks like it was built in today's suburbs and not a brick or stone town house -

I remember reading or maybe it was a display in a museum that the food for early man was rabbits and not this major large animal kill we see depicted - that the bones found in many of the cave dwellings were rabbit bones and they showed how nets were used to catch the rabbits making rabbit catching a lot easier and safer than killing large animals with arrows or spears.

Not that the Dutch go back to cave man times however, that knowledge made me aware that many European cultures regularly include rabbit in their cuisine which I would think was one generation following the eating habits of the preceding generation down through time.

Seems to me by the time Europeans settled in America the gun made a difference in what meat was easy to kill - a deer would last a few days where as a rabbit would be one meal for a few and so rabbit went out of style.

I do not think rabbit is popular in England - something to do with no hunting/poaching on lands that belonged to royalty or those approved by the courts to own a large house with acres of land or the church. I have a book that talks about how the family who worked the land was given a cottage on a quarter acre that was supposed to be just enough to keep a pig and have a front garden that included in a fruit tree and the family vegetables.

Marni: Yes, read them in order. The books can stand alone but there is chronological advancement in the characters and the historical events. I like reading historical novels because they give me a picture of the way that people of the time may have thought and how they may have acted on those thoughts. The details of dress and household function and social interaction are fascinating to me.

Thanks for the info, Mrs. Sherlock.

Barbara: One of my favorite places to visit in Manhattan is Fraunces Tavern at 54 Pearl St. in lower Manhattan. I read that it is the oldest building in Manhattan. Even so, it is from a later period - later than New Amsterdam. The tavern was built by a Huegenot in 1719 as a home on the city's first landfill area. Later it was made into a tavern. It is well-known as the place where George Washington said farewell to his officers from the Revolution.

Fraunces Tavern is a wonderful place to have lunch or dinner (it's expensive) or just to stop at the bar and have a drink. There's a fine small museum upstairs.

Here's a photo Bob took of the tavern. (That's me in green far off right in front of the building.)

Resized

Here's info about the tavern: http://www.frauncestavernmuseum.org/

Hello everyone. I just got my copy of Booknotes and found out about the Senior Net book discussions. I immediately joined and ordered from Amazon the books to be discussed starting in March. This one sounds great; I had read a review but probably wouldn't have taken the time to read it except for the upcoming discussion.

My husband and I lived in Fairfield county, CT for 30 years before moving south (to TN, which is where I'm from) after he retired and I"retired"-meaning that I still consult from here almost full time with my former employer. Still find time to read constantly though. I remember visiting a New Amsterdam settlement on Staten Island years ago and fnding it fascinating. I'll also look for the mysteries set in New Amsterdam someone mentioned.

Diana

Hi Diana, and welcome! Where are you in Tennessee? Hats and I both live in Chattanooga. There is a very active discussion of Tennesseans and others in the Geographic Communities - Tennessee. Come join us!

We have the book from the library. John has already started reading it, and will be joining the discussion, too.

Re Rabbits: I'm a city girl - never lived on a farm, and neither did my grandparents. But, it would seem to me that one of the reasons folks ate rabbits was that they were relatively easy to raise (like chickens), and reproduced quickly and came to maturity quickly (unlike cows, sheep, and pigs).

Diana: Welcome! This is wonderful that you read about our group! You spent a good long time in Fairfield County. My husband Bob comes from Darien and his mother moved to Rowayton after the kids moved out. I used to teach high school English in Greenwich.

You have found a lively group!

Marni

Mary Z: I'm thrilled John will be joining us! I'm going to try to get Bob to join in, too. He read the book last year and just loved it!

Marni it is very interesting for me to see the post about Faust's tavern as it was the first place we had dinner on our books club gathering in 1998. I believe I read about it in one of Helene Hannaf's books. It was a great place.

Judy: Welcome! What a neat place to have a book club gathering - Fraunces Tavern! It's so beautiful. Did they have a fire going when you were there? I know I might get teased for this, but they make amazing cocktails there. We stopped in for a Manhattan the last time we were in Manhattan (figuring it was appropriate!) and it was really something. Did you have a chance to see the museum when you were there? I remember they had a lot of things about Nathan Hale.

Marni

WELCOME: DianaW!!Pull a chair up to the fire and have some Dutch beer or cocoa, whichever you prefer. This is a great group.

Do you miss the winters in Connecticut? I just moved from Maryland to Southern California, and so far, I have to say, I don't miss winter at all. The one thing I think I will miss (believe it or not) is thunderstorms. For some reason, I really like them, and there are almost none here.

You will enjoy the discussion. Marni is wonderful!

Welcome Diane. Yes, Hats, Dutch is an interesting but somewhat gutteral language. They dearly loved nicknames and used them constantly. Some complementary, some not. I had one ancestor who had 13 living children.. The most recorded by a single couple in Schenectady church book.. All of them used his initial "P" as their middle names to distinguish them from the other family members there. Schenectady was a version of an Indian name.

I can get lost for hours in the two links in the heading - wonderful!

My book on cd has arrived. I have not started listening to it yet but am looking forward to it very much.

I checked online for the mysteries by Maan Meyers but cannot find any on cd. I may try one of those in hardback. I would really like to read them.

Welcome to SeniorNet Diane! I am sure you will enjoy it here.

Joan Grimes

Schenectady is the 9th largest city in New York State. The name "Schenectady" is derived from a Mohawk word for "on that side of the pinery," or "near the pines," or "place beyond the pine plains."

Sopmeone asked about the Adirondacks. My kids and the grands climb these mountains every year together.

The Adirondacks were originally claimed by two Indian nations, the Iroquois and the Algonquins. Neither group ever settled in the region, but the two nations fought over the Lake George - Lake Champlain water route through the Adirondacks. This route was the easiest route through the Adirondacks and was therefore a valuable resource.

I've taken my virtual tour and have the book. What an enlightening discussion this will be. As a New Yorker, I have a lot to learn and have come to the right place.

Marnie we were in NY for about a week. This was when books was fairly new and none of us knew each other and it was fabulous we really saw everything we could pack in, we stayed at the Leo House and it was a little rustic to say the least but fun.

If any one is interested in going to NY I would highly reccommend Apple of My Eye by Helene Hanff. I think we read most of her books one is Letters from New York. As I remember she had lived in NY most her life but someone asked her to write about all the places to see in NY and it dawned on her she was a native but had never been to most of the "places" This is a wonderful book and is a narative of her going to eveything she had missed and didn't know about NY. The book is a treasure.

We are now talking about a reunion in NY in December of 2008 as it will be our tenth year anniversary of the first trip the books ever took togeather. Sorry I don't usually ramble.

We may all finish this discussion knowing a little Dutch, thanks to Marni's link. I love the story about the children with P as a middle name, Stephanie.Think of the trouble that would cause today.

JOANG: I didn't know those books were mysteries. Have to check further.

ALF: I've only been to the Adirondacks once, but I really loved it! One of the lakes I stayed at was, I think, one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot.

JUDY: you can ramble like that anytime. Those books sound great!

I made a huge mistake. Both JoanK and Marni are great leaders of discussions.

I am reading away on the book, since I like to preread and then read again as the discussion starts. Takes longer nowadays to understand some things and my short term memory is interesting to put it mildly. I was looking at the church records in New Amsterdam. They are interesting because the person listing the members tried to include things about the newer members.. Sometimes right, sometimes speculation, but they make for interesting reading.

Oh, my, STEPHANIE. Can you imagine the wrong roads future seekers might take, based on someone's 'speculations' in a church record? It makes you wonder if some of the things people think they know for certain, was actually someone else's speculation. Yikes!

I am reminded of the words of Jeremiah during one of his diatribes against his sinning people: "How can you sany, 'We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord', when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jer. 8:8 )

Whoa! Doesn't that set us back on our heels?! I console myself with the thought that the verse reads differently in the Jewish Kanakh version.

Babi

Oh, this is a fun discussion. I've been down in New London visiting my parents - AND reading David Liss' A Conspiracy of Paper that Barbara mentioned plus our Island. I'm juggling books!

Joan: Hardly any thunderstorms in CA? I didn't realize. Maybe you'll suddenly start getting them. What a strange year for weather. It's hard to predict what weather will show up where anymore.

Stephanie: That's interesting how the Dutch used nicknames - some not complimentary. Dutch being a gutteral language - that's what reminds me of German when I hear it. Doesn't it sound very similar to German sometimes? I suppose that's very understandable considering how close the countries are in proximity. Isn't that cool being able to hear the Dutch words in that link?

I'm still laughing over what you said about "my short term memory is interesting to put it mildly." I know the feeling!!! Sometimes I think I'm doing remarkably well and other times I think I have none at all!!

JoanG: I'm glad your CD arrived. I hope everyone is finding the book. I'm so glad to see people are enjoying the virtual tour!

Alf: Schenectady an Indian word. I was wondering about that. The Sch part reminded me of Dutch - like Schuyler. Maybe it's the way the Dutch spelled it after hearing the Indian word.

Judy: What is the Leo House? Is it an old historic place?

Babi: Your remark about "wrong roads" reminds me of the writing of history in general. Who writes it? We'll be discussing that more in our March 15 book discussion.

Sounds like some of you have enjoyed traveling through the Adirondacks. Doesn't New York have some very beautiful and varied landscape? If I'm remembering my NY mountains correctly (there are so many ranges there), the Adirondacks are in upstate NY, a large sparsely populated area northwest of Lake George. I have only visited there once and it was one of the most beautiful areas I have ever seen. Bob and I stumbled upon the glacial lake that is the source of the Hudson River. That was so exciting! And we came upon an old garnet mine where there were tiny fragments of garnets everywhere lying on the rough road sparkling red in the sunlight. That was an amazing sight! The road was actually made partly of chunks of discarded industrial-quality garnets. I picked some up and brought them home as a keep-sake.

Has anyone every visited Ausable Chasm?

What are the other mountain ranges in NY? I can think of....the Peekskills? Aren't those the ones you think of in Washington Irving's stories about the early Dutch? And there are.....the Berkshires that cross over into Mass?

'"my short term memory is interesting to put it mildly." I know the feeling!!! Sometimes I think I'm doing remarkably well and other times I think I have none at all!!'

Boy, you've got that right!

One lapse: I couldn't remember the name of the lake that was so beautiful. Of course it came to me in the middle of the night. It's Lake Placid: not the lake next to the town of Lake Placid, which is a different lake (!) but the real Lake Placid, which is hidden away nearby. It's like a mirror, reflecting the nearby mountains and the sky, and early in the morning, I watched a mother duck and her babies float by in complete silence, hardly disturbing the water.

That was over 10 years ago, but I can still see it. Beautiful.

Marni I will have to ask someone like Joan P because I am having a hard time remembering yesterday. It was in Chelsea not far from down town. It is run by Catholic people. It was built like in 1900 an old elevator with a lift and a elevator man. Bathroom if you got one with your room very small with pipes in the ceiling. I usually like to stay in a really good hotel but it was fun and they give a very nice breakfast. They threw us out of the lobby one night because we were making too much noise. About time I may add, we had to go down to a room at the end of the hall in order not to disturn everyone for miles. The lights and the decorataions for Christmas were unbelievable.

Some of the lakes in New YOrk are just like Mirrors.. Cooperstown,NY in addition to the Baseball Hall of Fame has a wonderful lake there. So cold it will make your teeth chatter if you put a foot in.. They also have a wonderful opera house out in the country where they put on several shows each summer. The sides of the building slide out if the weather is good and you have sort of an indoor-outdoor show. We went one year and had such a wonderful time. Very close is a teeny little town that is all antiques shops..All quite small.. It was a lovely four day weekend. Oh me.. Just remembering makes me want to go back (but only in the summer).

Judy: Kicked out of the lobby for partying too loudly! Oh, you guys had fun!

Stephanie: I was reading about Cooperstown when I read a short bio about James Fenimore Cooper. His father founded Cooperstown. He wanted it to be like his fiefdom - he was going to be a lord of a manor. He built a town around his manor house and invited workers to move in and work there. I'd like to visit the town one day.

My son visited another town in upstate NY that I'd like to visit - Gouverneur, NY. Gouverneur Morris used to travel to upstate NY to go fishing and hunting. A town was named after him there. I wanted to find out how to pronounce his first name, so I asked my son to ask some townspeople he met there on his business trip. I believe it was "guv NEUR" with the accent on the 2nd syllable. He was a famous New Yorker who was descended from the early Dutch on his father's side - French Huegenot on his mother's side.

Judy, why does your experience not surprise me?

I am enjoying popping in and out of this site. I sent it's link to my daughter and her friend, who are brand New Yorkers and loving every minute of it. I told my Judy about the Fraunces Tavern on Pearl St., which someone had put up, and she knew about it. They are living in the lower east side near Chinatown and Little Italy, and right now she is so intrigued with the Bowery, and is reading Stephen Crane's "Maggie a Girl of the Streets." I didn't know that was about the Bowery.

But I checked out Island from the library today, along with the first in a 5-part New York video series (PBS) which I plan to watch tonight instead of the other biggie that's on. I don't know how much I'll participate here because I'll be travelling and also leading the March Curious Minds. But anyway, you've got me interested.

If you want to know more about Leo House where we stayed for the first Boooks Gathering here is a link to information about it.

http://www.retreatfinder.com/Accommodation/2271.asp

We sure did enjoy our stay there.

Joan Grimes

Pedin! Welcome! You're going to love the book! Oh, I hope your daughter and her friend are interested in reading it, too. That's so neat that they're checking out our posts! The Bowery. Where is that in NYC? I wonder if the Dutch settled there? I've heard of the "Bowery Boys." Were they one of the "gangs of New York" who hung out around the Five Points area (like in the movie "Gangs of New York")?

Oh - Martin Scorsese just won the Academy Award for directing "The Departed." (He directed "The Gangs of New York.")

JoanG: Thanks for the link.

Marni

I just checked out our Virtual Tour of New Netherland for the Bowery. Take a look for yourselves to find out about what a bowery was - Look under "Bowery No. 1."

Almost all of the New York city names are variations of Dutch.. They just anglicized them over the years.. The exception of course is New York..Oh well. I am reading away on the book and sometimes marking great exclamation marks. Can hardly wait to start this since from all of my genealogical library, I have a number of early records and I do wonder about some of his conversations etc. Still it is fun.

Stephanie, I am so glad you are here. My book didn't come yet. I am starting to read Resources on the Internet.

Does anyone remember the 'Bowery Boys' gang movies from the 40's? There were several movies featuring them, and they were popular with the kids' Saturday matinees. The same actors were also the 'Eastside Kids' and the 'Deadend Kids'. The only one of them that I recall seeing elsewhere was Huntz Hall.

Some info. on the Bowery:

Before Broadway became Manhattan's signature Mother Road, the lane that would become the Bowery wound to the island's upper reaches. It was a dirt trail etched by the bare feet and moccasins of the Native Americans before the Dutch arrived and situated their farms, which they called "bouwerij" (we get our English word "bower" from the same root) and the road was, naturally, called "the bowery road." The Bowery's first residents were ten families of freed slaves in about 1645.

It was extended on a winding path north to ferries crossing the Harlem River and then on to Boston. It was also extended south, in the early 1800s, to connect with Pearl Street in a section at first called New Bowery and then St. James Place.

Babi

Babi: What interesting info about the Bowery! I remember those old movies about the Bowery Boys. They were comedies. The "gang" wasn't like the tough bunch of Bowery Boys in the movie "Gangs of New York."

I became interested in the Five Points are of Manhattan after I saw the Scorsese film. I read that the area, today part of Chinatown and Little Italy, used to contain a small lake called Collect Pond which people used for their drinking water and for boating. (It was originally called the Kalch-Hook by the Dutch.) Industry built up around it and used the lake for a dumping area for tanneries, slaughterhouses, breweries, and privies until it became polluted and disgusting and disease was rampant.

Eventually, the lake was filled in and tenements were built there. Canal Street and Tombs Prison were built where Collect Pond once was. The ground was unstable and the buildings immediately began to sink, so only the poor moved there. It turned into a poor neighborhood where new immigrants tended to move in waves because it was the only place they could afford to live in NY - waves of Irish, later Italians, later Chinese.

Today the land has been reinforced and is more stable. There is a city park where the lake once lay - Collect Pond Park. Here's an old picture of Collect Pond:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/amdr/hob_54.90.168.htm

Here's more info about NYC's drinking water: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/celebrate.html

Marni

I think it's interesting to see how the NYC land changed over time - such as with landfill as with Collect Pond. Landfill changed the coastline of Manhattan over time. If you ever have a chance to visit Castle Clinton, the old fort in Battery Park, there is a small museum inside with a series of large paintings that show you how the lower Manhattan coastline changed over time as landfill was added.

It reminds me of Boston - how it started out as basically an island connected to the MA mainland by a narrow neck. Then it became part of the mainland as landfill was added.

I have been hunting for a painting to show you, but I can't find it. Anyway....when I first found out about Collect Pond in Manhattan, I saw this painting of the lake with a small steamboat on it. I was astounded to see a note at the bottom of the painting that said something like "steamboat invented by John Fitch." I immediately did some research on that because my son's elementary school (one block away from my house) was named John Fitch School.

Sure enough, I read that John Fitch invented the steamboat. I had always thought it was Robert Fulton. Nope, our own John Fitch. And John Fitch came from my town of Windsor, CT. He just wasn't very good at selling his product in the way he had hoped. He did sell some steamboats that did stuff like ferry people around Collect Pond, etc. Fitch eventually committed suicide in his depression over his lack of huge success, apparently. Several years ago, I saw an exhibit about Fitch at the Smithsonian American History Museum in DC. Pretty exciting for me!

As Judy brought up our NYC trip perhaps you might like to take a quick glance at pictures of our group and some of the sights we saw. Gosh, I hope this old body (some 10 years older) makes it once again. I had been to the city three times before then and love it, just love it!

The bookies go to the Big Apple

We weren't drunk, even though we might look it! Hahahahaaaa I wonder about Judy and her gang, though, causing such a commotion in the halls! That's my daughter sitting out in the little garden in the rear of the building.

We recently got the movie "THE GANGS OF NEW YORK" - one of Martin Scorsese's movies - from the Library and it was historical, though a bit violent as most of his movies tend to be. It portrayed the Irish immigrants coming to New York after the potato famine and how poorly they were treated by the "Nativists" who feared they would take away their jobs, etc. They were treated very poorly.

Oh, Ella, what a fabulous trip you had! Thank you for sharing your adventure! So nice to see people's faces! You certainly had a full weekend!

Babi: Do these faces look familiar?

http://home.earthlink.net/~bcwalk/bowery/

DVD sets of Bowery Boy movies are on sale on the web.

Oh such lovely history of how NYC developed here. I am delighted. I have a lot of maps, but it is such fun to hear about how and why it grew. Some where on Wall St. is where the original church was and years ago, I sort of remember something about the cemetary still being there. Not sure however.

MARNI, I came across that site also, when I was looking for more about the Bowery Boys. Your picture of Collect Pond made me sad. It is always such a shame that lovely spots like that are turned into cesspools in the name of progress and 'civilization'. But it invariably happens.

Babi

PS: I got the book from the neighboring library this morning. Now I'll be able to get a good start before the actual discussion begins. B

Stephanie: I think I found the spot you were referring to - where the "original church" you mentioned was located. Peter Stuyvesant's remains are still buried in the churchyard even though the church there is not the original church. Is this the place?

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/stuyvesant/stuy.html

Babi: I'm so glad you have the book! Isn't it wonderful how we can now get books from associated libraries so easily!

Babi: That link I just posted (#129) has some great info on it! Here's info about an old alley and it reminds me of the old indian trail you referred to a bit earlier! Is this the old road you were thinking of? Oh, wait a minute, probably not because it's in Brooklyn.

http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/redhooklane/redhook.html

Ella, I loved looking at the pictures of your Big Apple trip. What fun you all must have had. I hope there will be another get together in New York.

I'm sending something from this site every day to Judy, my new New Yorker. Just sent the link about Stuvyesant Street and the environs. I really envy Judy and Liz being right in the middle of it all. They live just south of 1st St., a few blocks from the Bowery.

How fascinating!! How I wish I'd had enough sense to look up information like this when I lived there!

Thank goodness for the internet! Almost every day I say how amazing it is what we can find out there today!

JoanK: Where did you used to live in Brooklyn? Were you near any of those old "forgotten alleys" in Brooklyn?

Pedin: Judy and Liz ARE lucky! What a fun place to live. My aunt lived in Greenwich Village on E. 9th right around the corner from Washington Square. Boy, was that a great place. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to visit very often. When we did visit, she wanted to stay home and chat. Almost the only time I got around was when she asked me to walk her 2 dachshunds. That was always rather embarrassing because I had to pick up their messes.

Bob and I have started visiting NYC every year for the past few years. We go with some friends, one of whom was in the military. Luckily, he is able to arrange for us all to stay at a military lodging on Staten Island right down the street from Fort Wadsworth near the Verrazano Bridge, not far from the ferry terminal. It's a great free ferry trip to Battery Park with a fabulous view of the Statue of Liberty. You can see how close Staten Island is to Manhattan in one of the pictures in this link which has some neat old pictures and history of Staten Island.

http://www.nypl.org/branch/staten/history/siphototour.html

I lived on Ocean Parkway and Avenue Z. That's at the Southern tip of Brooklyn, about eight blocks from Coney Island.

But I spent a lot of time in Greenwich Village -- I wish I'd spent more.

Yes, Marnie, that is the church yard and the burial places. Thanks for the link. The book is startling since I am now in places where some of the names are ancestors of mine. That is always fun to see another persons take on ancestors. My husband came from Long Island and went to college there as well. WE used to go visit college friends after we married and visit Greenwich Village a good deal of the time. Used to love the Village Gate.. under the Greenwich Village Hotel. Had wonderful wonderful folk singers back in the late 50's.. Probably all gone now.

Those small, out-of-the-way places are always fascinating to me, MARNI. My husband had an aunt and uncle living in Greenwich Village, and we visited them there once. They took us on a walk in the evening to a church there to show us a famous painting there. The picture, the lighting,..were beautiful. The walk was one of my loveliest memories of our visit here. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the church and my research has so far failed to identify it or the painting.

Babi

In my next life I am going to live in NY probably SoHo or Greenich Village I am already planning.

Stephanie: That is so exciting about your ancestors. When we begin our book discussion on March 15 and reach the place about your ancestors, please please point them out to us and tell us then what you know about them. How FUN! I can hardly wait!

The Village Gate sounds so familiar. Didn't Bob Dylan sing there? I think my husband used to go there when he was a teenager. I'm still a huge Bob Dylan fan and have a lot of his recordings. Remember how folk music was so BIG back in the late 50's and the 60's? Remember Peter, Paul, and Mary? The Kingston Trio? Joan Baez? The Newport Folk Festival? Coffeehouses?

Oh, this reminds me. Bruce Springsteen produced a folk recording this past year - We Shall Overcome: The Seeger Sessions - He recently won a Grammy Award for the best folk album of the year. It's good! You can listen to excerpts from it here:

http://www.amazon.com/We-Shall-Overcome-Seeger-Sessions/dp/B000EU1PNC

Babi and Judy: I'll meet you in Greenwich Village! I love it there! They have great little shops and restaurants and parks. Boy, it's expensive to live there, though. I love the way you can zip around New York on the subway and get to places. (I don't think I'd feel comfortable by myself, though. I'd want someone with me. I'm a chicken.)

Thanks for all the welcomes! I live in Shelbyville, about a hour and a half from Chattanooga. Good to hear we Tennesseans are active in book discussions. I'd love to find a local "in-person" book group but have had little success, except for the romance sorts of books I'm not much interested in. I probably wouldn't find time to make meetings anyway!

Diana

DIANA: here is a link to the last page of our Tennessee discussion: it sounds like a lively one.

TENNESSEE

I recently moved to California and the folks in the California discussion made me feel so welcome, and gave me a ton of good info. California is a huge state, and none of them live near me, but you might well find differently.

We were in NYC 3 times in the 80's to early 90"s and took the ferry to the Statute of Liberty and lastly to Ellis Island. Battery Park, during those years was an old, dirty, dilapidated park and I always wondered why the city didn't clean it up and renovate it.

They are starting to. See it here: Battery Park

I'm not sure of the history of the park other than this is where it all started. Where did it get its name?

Do come visit us in the Tennessee discussion, Diana. And thanks for the link, JoanK. One of our daughters lives near Manchester, and another lives in Nashville, so we're up and down I-24 quite a bit. Going to Nashville this weekend, in fact. We'll wave.

Ella: They have cleaned up Battery Park and it is a really good place to visit. There are a number of interesting sites there and vendors meander around selling their wares. It was named Battery Park because of the guns (batteries) in various forts built there over time to protect Manhattan. The park is actually built on landfill. State Street was the original boundary and Manhattan has been expanded over the years.

Today, an old fort (Castle Clinton) still remains. It was built just prior to the War of 1812 because America was preparing for an anticipated attack from the British. You can see an arial view of the fort in the link you provided. Here's another view of it that I snapped:

Here's into from Wikipedia about Battery Park:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_Park_(New_York)

Right near Castle Clinton you can catch the ferry to the Statue of Liberty and to Ellis Island which are right off Manhattan's southern tip. Here's a photo of Ellis Island:

In this photo I took in New York Harbor (from the Staten Island ferry) you can see how close the Statue of Liberty is to the island of Manhattan behind it:

Ah, the Statue makes me homesick.. We spent a year on Long Island after our children were born. We took them to all of the sites, but the Statue was our favorite. I always wanted to be a park ranger and live there. So neat. Battery Park is a miracle. The last time I saw it, it was all druggies. Yes, The Village Gate did have all of the folk music. We saw Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Judy Henske,The Kingston Trio, Ian and Sylvia, etc. etc. This was all late 50's and 60's. This period however was also the big druggie push and Greenwich was not much fun at that point. LIke Judy, I always wanted to come back living there..But oh wow.. is it expensive. Our older sons old girlfriend and now close friend lives there with her husband and what she paid for a small small coop is appalling.

Marni, beautiful photos!

GREAT PICTURES! They've done some great things at Ellis Island, I hear. One of them is: they've put their records online, and you can search for an ancestor online:

ELLIS ISLAND ANCESTOR SEARCH

(I'm sure Stephanie knows a lot more about it).

JoanK: Bob and I used the Ellis Island search online feature before we went to Ellis Island! Someone here on SeniorNet posted about it. Maybe it was you! It was in the Audubon bio discussion.

We searched at the kiosks at Ellis Island and also searched online from our home. I found the ship that my grandmother came to America on from Wales when she was 11 and an orphan. I never did find her younger brother who my dad had thought came on the same ship with her. Bob had a big surprise - he found that his dad, who had run away and joined the Merchant Marine as a teenager, had come back into the US via Ellis Island.

What a cool tool! I was surprised to find how recent it was that immigrants came through Ellis Island - late 19th century if I recall correctly. I had thought it was earlier. Not all records are there, either.

Marni

I am not a non-fiction buff, but the entries so far are so tantalizing and I also see some familiar names, I believe this new excursion will be both enjoyable and informative. I just love the tidbits of past and present as a prelude to the actual reading. Lucky, Powell's bookstore has Palm edition. I also see some familar names from February's title. I'm about half way through the entries so far. Bern

Ellis Island. I do want to visit it and will the next time we are in New York, but no, I dont really know much about it since my ancestors pretty much all came in 1600's through about 1750..so Ellis Island holds no records for them. I could probably look for my husbands Swiss family, although I did already obtain their naturalization records. I am plunging ahead and enjoying some of the book..

Bern: Welcome! Pull up a chair and join us before the tavern fire! I think this is wonderful that the subject has pulled you toward the genre of non-fiction. I am certain that even though it is a work of history, its powerful story will keep us entranced.

Can you tell us about the "palm edition"? How do you use it? Is it audio?

It's amazing how our book has intrigued so many. I keep bumping into people who ask me if I have read it. My next door neighbor's son lives in Leiden, Holland, and came home for a Christmas holiday. Right off, he asked me if I had read the book. He read it over in Holland. (He knew Bob's ancestors were Dutch American colonists.) My neighbors across the street asked me if I had read it. (They are immigrants from Holland.) I gave a copy to my best friend for Christmas. She and her husband are reading it and want to visit Bob's family's old Dutch colonial farmhouse in Englewood, NJ.

Marni

Marni, you asked about Palm. Most individuals use a Palm Handheld as an organizer and a "bunch" of other tasks related to communicating and keeping one's life in order. I, myself, upload and read any number of books with this little electronic miracle. Some would like to hold a real book but I would rather be able to carry my library along with me. I am a little "over the top" with it and read several at one time. The challenge comes when the plots begin to merge e.g. "The Red and the Black<" "All Is Vanity." and "The Woman In White." I finally had to quit and finish one and then the other. Switching to a non fiction will probably not be too much of a problem.

Book files are often a little bit cheaper and more and more book distributers are providing them. Here is a sample. (http://ebooks.palm.com/author/list)

Another little trick is to be able to copy and paste any articles from the internet on to the the Palm. e.g. NYTimes book review Arts & Letters Daily (http://www.aldaily.com/)etc. Sure beats sitting before a screen all the time especially since I have to do that anyway for my online course instruction,

There is so much already on this discussion, it will take a while for me to meet everyone. Bern

Bern: Thank you for the Palm info. I was curious because just yesterday I came across a new online book site where one can download books onto various technical devices, including an iPod and some sort of Palm device. I was thinking at first the iPod download might be audio, but it turned out to be visual. I have the large iPod, but the screen is still quite small and I think my eyes would be more comfortable with a regular book.

Is the Palm screen quite large?

Here's my new website for the free online books. There's a great selection.

http://manybooks.net/

Marni

Patwest has posted our Week 1 Schedule up in our Header above. Directly above that you can view the entire 6-week schedule by clicking on the link Complete Discussion Schedule.

Thanks, Patwest!

Bern: How big is the screen on your palm? The Sony screen is 6" diagonal. Can you increase the size of the font? How many books can you load?

That sounds great for when you're stuck waiting in a dentisst or other office. I try to always have a book in my purse for such times. But often the book I'm reading is too big to fit, and I'm stuck with year-old People magazines (UGH!)

Ellis Island is just great. If you love history plan to spend almost the whole day. We did. Tom Brokaw is the voice you hear on the rented audio speakers, which you must get as it leads to each exhibit and tells you the story. My daughter is a nurse and had to read everything about the health tests given to each immigrant. Sadly many were sent back because of health problems that are easily solved today.

Welcome Bern! I usually am in just nonfiction book discussions so we have not met, but this author writes as if you are reading a suspense novel. He is a bit dramatic for a historian, IMHO, but I am enjoying the book.

Thanks for the schedule Marcie.

Ella, T hanks for the information on Ellis Island. We are considering coming to NYC this winter for a week and I have that on my must see list.

Since we're talking about all thing New York, let's not forget the food. My daughter thought she had found a real New York deli near where we live (in Southern California). On the menu was thier "Famous Egg Cream". Since she's heard me talk so much about the egg creams in New York, she excitedly ordered it. The waiter said "What's that?" I guess it wasn't as famous as the menu-writer thought.

But aparently, egg creams are getting scarce in New York as well, as delis and soda fountains disappear. For those of you who have lived without them, here are the instructions:

EGG CREAM

Since Egg Cream seems to be mostly seltzer water, I fear its charm escapes me. The original sounds as tho' it was something I would have liked; the later version may have succeeded on nostalgia.

Babi

I have a copy awaiting me at the local library plus I have ordered a used copy from Amazon. This will be another history book that I will want to keep.

The enthusiasm show here is refreshing! Can't wait!

Ann: Welcome!! Come join us and we can all try out an egg cream together! I'm so glad you were able to get ahold of the book.

JoanK: I've always wondered what an egg cream was. I have to agree with Babi, though, about the seltzer not sounding too appetizing. But, I'm up for trying it!

Your remark about disappearing delis and soda fountains reminded me of something. At the Smithsonian in D.C. - in the Museum of American History - there is a place to eat downstairs - it's designed to look like an old-fashioned ice cream parlor. You can get banana splits, ice cream sundaes, etc. Gosh, remember those days.

Down along the town green in the center of Windsor, CT (my town), someone opened an old-fashioned ice cream parlor with a soda fountain last summer in one of the old buildings remaining there. It looks really nice with the old tables and chairs, a bar and stools, good creamy ice cream. No egg creams, though. I don't ever recall seeing them in CT.

Marni

JoanK: That is such interesting NY info in the link you provided above! I'm going to print out here the info about the Lenape Indians. Fascinating!

NYC's First Apartment Dwellers: The Lenape Indians By: Tony the Tour Guy tonythetourguy@yahoo.com

About the only thing that most of us have heard about the Native Americans who inhabited the New York City area was that they sold Manhattan to the Dutch for $24. Let's talk a bit about the fascinating people who lived in the area prior to European settlement.

Lenape means "men" or "people" in Munsee, the dialect spoken by the first New Yorkers, who called the area Lenapehoking, or "Place where the Lenape live." They were Algonquins, not Iroquois, as some of us were taught in grammar school. The Iroquois were further upstate, and they and the Lenape frequently fought. Estimates are that, at the time of the Dutch settlers' arrival, approximately 15,000 Indians lived in the area which we know call New York City, with another 30 to 50,000 residing in the larger area from Eastern Connecticut to Central New Jersey. They lived in small, loosely-formed groups based upon kinship, and did not form tribes in the way usually portrayed by Hollywood. Each group, headed by a sachem, typically occupied a series of campsites, to which they moved depending upon the seasons. During fishing season, for example, a group would be at its waterside site, where they would stay until autumn, when they would move further inland to harvest their crops.

The Lenape diet was rich and varied. They hunted deer, wild turkey and other game, and also harvested the abundant seafood in the harbor. When the Europeans arrived, they would write home about foot-long oysters and other marvelous shellfish which the Indians enjoyed. As they developed skill in agriculture, they began to grow corn, beans, squash, sunflowers and perhaps also tobacco. Their mobile lifestyle precluded making elaborate dwellings, or fashioning heavy tools. For shelter they relied upon longhouses, which were constructed by bending the trunks taken from small trees to create a series of arches, which served as the frame. Covered with bark, a longhouse would sometimes hold twelve families, making these structures the first New York apartment houses.

Although Lenape women enjoyed a fair amount of privileges, sex roles in their society were fairly rigid. The men did hunting and fishing, while the women tilled the fields and also did much of the construction. Families belonged to clans, each of which traced itself to a common female ancestor. When two or more clans came together they formed a phantry, which typically took for itself an animal name, such as Wolf. In terms of lineage, a child was considered a member of its mother's phantry.

The various campsites and planting fields which the Lenape used were linked by an extensive network of trails, many of which went on to become colonial roads and subsequently, modern streets. Kings Highway, Flatbush Avenue, Jamaica Avenue and Amboy Road all follow Lenape trails. When I research my walking tours I always look for streets which do not follow the modern grid pattern. Frequently I find that these thoroughfares followed old trails.

Unfortunately, there are no contemporary Lenape communities within New York City. However, many place names in and around town come from the names of the Lenape groups which settled there: Canarsie, Gowanas, Rockaway, Masapequa, Hackansack, Merrick, Raritan, etc.

Source: Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace, GOTHAM, NY, Oxford University Press, 1999, pp. 5-13.

MARNI: trust you to find that fascinating info in the link, which I completely missed. You are the queen of the links.

Unfortunately, but understandably, the European emphasis on the Indian tribes they found was mainly on whether they were friendly or not. We don't often get much of a picture of their society or culture.

BABI: you're wrong about egg creams. They taste like a chocolate ice cream soda after some of the ice cream has melted. I had never had them til I moved to NY and became an instant fan.

I thoroughly enjoyed the post on the Lenapes, MARNI. Like so many other Americans, I have Indians in my background (Cherokee) and am always interested in learning more about them.

I'm also willing to give egg creams a try, JOAN. Though when it came to soda fountain drinks, I preferred malts to sodas.

I'm starting thru' the links, one at a time, as I have time. Started with the old houses; I've always enjoyed touring old houses. They bring the ways of the past alive for me.

Babi

Under the headline - "Wall Street historic district placed on National Register" - is this paragraph:

"Once it formed the nothern edge of the city, with a wall built by African slaves to keep out raiding Indians. Later, it was where the Bill of Rights was adopted, George Washington was sworn in, the New York Stock Exchange was founded and New York experienced its fierst terrorist attach.

And it was the epicenter of the 1929 crash that led to the Great Depression, which turned Wall Street, originally a lumpy cow path used by Dutch settlers into a global synonym for capitalism and high finance."

Ella, that is very, very interesting information about Wall Street. Marni, I am glad you posted the information about the Lenapes too.

Babi: How interesting that you are part Cherokee. Have you done a lot of research into their history? Here in CT, the Mashantucket Pequots built the Mashantucket Pequot Museum and Research Center near their Foxwoods Casino. The museum is a fascinating place to visit. Here's a blurb about it:

"The world's largest and most comprehensive Native American museum and research center offers an array of engaging experiences for young and old, from life-size walk-through dioramas that transport visitors into the past, to changing exhibits and live performances of contemporary arts and cultures. Four full acres of permanents exhibits depict 18,000 years of Native and natural history in thoroughly researched detail, while two libraries, including one for children, offer a diverse selection of materials on the histories and cultures of all Native peoples of the United States and Canada."

http://www.pequotmuseum.org/

One place I want to visit in NYC is the Smithsonian National Museum of the American Indian, located right in the old Customs House at 1 Bowling Green in the Battery, exactly on the site where the old Dutch fort used to sit in New Amsterdam. Here's a blurb about it:

"The Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian is dedicated to the preservation, study, and exhibition of the life, languages, literature, history, and arts of Native Americans. Established by an Act of Congress in 1989, the museum works in collaboration with the Native peoples of the Western Hemisphere to protect and foster their cultures by reaffirming traditions and beliefs, encouraging contemporary artistic expression, and empowering the Indian voice."

http://www.ny.com/museums/national.museum.of.the.american.indian.html

Ella: Thank you for the info about the Wall St. historic district. Some of the sites included in the NYC Patriot Trail walking tour are there. Here's a photo Bob took of Federal Hall which is where George Washington was inaugurated. Look at those columns! (That's me in the picture.) Unfortunately, the building was closed for renovations when we arrived.

More about Federal Hall: http://www.nps.gov/feha/

Another site nearby is St. Paul's Chapel, directly across the street from where the World Trade Center was located. Built in 1766, St. Paul's is New York City's oldest continuously used public building. George Washington worshiped there. We visited his pew and learned there that during the 9/11 crisis his pew area was used specifically to help those with foot injuries, a fitting memory of the soldiers with bloody feet at Valley Forge.

Here are some neat photos of the Alexander Hamilton Custom House which is where the National Museum of the American Indian is located.

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM012-ALEXANDERHAMILTONCUSTOMHOUSE.htm

Oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy! I just realized that the link above to the Alexander Hamilton Customs House also links to a whole bunch of photos of other NYC historic buildings. They are fabulous!!!!

http://www.nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM.htm

Wow! The aerial view of Manhattan is fantastic. I had never realized, living there, the pattern of the skyscrapers: there are a bunch in lower Manhattan, then lower-rises, then another concentration in mid-town (probably the 50s). I used to work at 35th and Park Ave, and never though about the fact that there were no really tall skyscrapers around.

If you have Google Earth on your computer, search Manhattan, NY and you can see the buildings in 3-D

That was interesting about the Indian museum in NYC.. I must confess that we went to an Indian museum in a Pima village out in New Mexico and the Indians version of history is really really funny.. and sarcastic as well. Dont blame them a bit, but I will say that it not the same history we think of.. The book and I are plugging along.. I realize reading that I am going to need two readings to get out of it what I want.

The Custom House (and Bankruptcy Court

) is fascinating, MARNI. Such a rich, complex building. One could spend all day looking at all there is to be seen there.

If family tradition is correct, I am about 1/16th Cherokee. My great-grandfather always denied being Cherokee, insisting the family were English. In his day, Indian ancestry was not the point of pride it is now. But I have seen a picture of his family, and they definitely look Indian. I don't doubt there was an English ancestor in there somewhere; their family name - Walraven - does turn up as English.

Babi

My father had quite a bit of Indian blood. My Cousin Dorothy's maiden and last name was Bloodsworth. Of course, I am, if broken down in fractions, mostly Black. Throughout History, there has been a close association between Native American and the Black American. Then, there have been also hard times.

Marnithe photos are wonderful.

HATS, aren't there some books involving African-American and Native American relationships? I seem to vaguely remember seeing at least one in a Western frontier setting. If we could find some that had accurate historical information...as well as a good story...they would make interesting reading. Of ourse, there were A/A soldiers on the frontier,too, so they would have been fighting Indians.

Babi

It's really true how we are a melting pot here in America! I love hearing about people's roots!

Patwest: The Google Earth feature sounds neat! I don't have it and am worried to download anything new until we have finished our taxes. My computer is rather old. But, that sounds cool to be able to see NYC in 3-D.

I love seeing the aerial shots. Here are some wonderful (and many) aerial photos of Manhattan, surrounding islands, rivers, NJ, Brooklyn, Albany, Niagara Falls, Westchester County, etc. You can see from these views how the Manhattan area could have been such an important place to settle, especially considering how New York Harbor is very deep. You can click on any of the photos to enlarge them.

It's kind of fun to compare the aerial views to the old maps in our Header.

http://www.skypic.com/newyork.htm

JoanK: I've been looking at the aerial photos and it is interesting to see how the skyscrapers stop in lower Manhattan and upper, but not in the middle. Is some of that area Central Park? I don't remember which streets are Little Italy and Chinatown. But I remember reading about that area where they filled in the pond that they have never been able to build skyscrapers there because the ground was not stable enough.

Hats: In those aerial photos, there are some pictures of Coney Island! Look at the huge sweep of the white beach!

JoanK: Your Brooklyn is there, too!

Gravesend is there. Those of you who read McCullough's 1776, remember reading about Gravesend? Where the British landed on Long Island to fight Washington's troops?

Stephanie: Albany is there!

Haven't had much of a chance to post in here yet - but must say I'm really enjoying our coming together here - into this melting pot at the center of the world!

The maps are great - and I love the aerial shots just posted - the George Washington Bridge connecting NJ to NY across the Hudson - and other views. (Does anyone here know the George Washington Bridge song?)

Is there anyone else here from New Jersey? I know it's hard to think of New Jersey as the Garden state when you look at them - Newark, Jersey City, Hoboken, The view from the Turnpike, the refineries and all that over-development do not well represent the rest of the state - the mountains, the beaches, the vegetable gardens of south Jersey.

For the purpose of this discussion, think of me (and my ancestors) growing up in a quiet, little hamlet across the river from the big, bustling island. I see from the inside cover of the book that New Jersey was heavily populated with Indians at this time, but am certain that the Dutch crossed the river before the English came because of the Dutch influence - so many street names still today - Stuyvesant Ave. comes to mind.

My fondest memories of New York - as a teenager, being permitted to catch the bus into Manhattan with my friends - a 40 minute ride. A wild place it seemed, full of "foreign" sights and smells - and endless opportunities for adventure - or misadventure! I always thought I'd live there after college as many of my friends did - but that was not to be. My sister did though. Still lives in the state - on Long Island.

My niece, her daughter, lives in the Chelsea area of the city in the shadow of the Empire State building - in the same neighborhood - two blocks from the Leo House where we stayed for our SeniorNet gathering nearly 10 years ago.

Hi, JoanP! You might be interested in checking out some Dutch colonial New Jersey info in the "Virtual Tour of New Netherland" in the Header above. Click on the lower left map, then click on "Hudson," then click on "Pavonia."

Marni

I love the city and I'm enjoying the book; but I keep finding recent articles pertaining to the history of the city. There is another article in the paper this morning about Cooper Union, the site of a speech by Abraham Lincoln in 1860 that many scholars believe made him president. I tried to find the building on Google and only came up with one - scroll down to see lovely old pictures and post cars:

Old pictures of Cooper Union

Is it still there?

Marni and Babi, I can't think of any books offhand. I will keep a eye out now that we have been talking about the relationships between African Americans and the Native Americans.

I will have to look at the aerial view again. I might have missed it. I spent time this morning looking at the historical homes. JoanK and Marni have a lot of good information here. I just received my book in the mail yesterday.

If you look down the aerial views of Brooklyn to one called "Coney Island and Ocean Parkway", it contains the apartment house where I lived briefly, 40 years ago. I couldn't pick it out, but it was on Ocean parkway, near the end at Coney Island. Since I am not an urban person, having the beach nearby to walk on was important to me.

You can see Coney Island is the Southern tip of Brooklyn. I always wondered why it was called "Island". It's not an island, but it is a sort of peninsula. Maybe it was an island once.

Ella: I found something about Cooper Union. It was called the Cooper Institute. Today, the building in those beautiful post cards is the oldest standing steel framed building in America. The institution is named The Cooper Union for the Advancement of Science and Art and it was established in 1859. And yes, it is still a school accepting admissions for 2007. Here's info about it and in this article it mentions that Lincoln gave his famous speech there:

http://www.cooper.edu/administration/about/history.html

Just in the last few days, I heard about a historic speech? being presented in the Cooper Union where soandso occurred? Must go look that up!

It was this speech that made Lincoln president.

Lincoln Speaks at Cooper Union

And this debate was presented there last week. The Lincoln speech is mentioned as the reason. Gingrich/Cuomo Debate

Babi.. Walraven.. Way back in the late 1600's, my paternal original immigrant married a woman whose father was a Walraven. He used the name for his oldest son..Walraven Dumond, father of Francyntje Dumond was Flemish.. The name quickly died out in popularity as more and more English came into NY and as far as I can determine.. Mostly became Walter.. New Jersey.. Oh me, yes, The part across from New York was originally all Dutch..Lots of interesting records there.

Thanks, for directing me to the New Jersey/Pavonia link, Marni. Don't want to get into the book's early chapters yet, but was really interested to learn that Pavonia in New Jersey was one of the early "patroonships of New Netherland = From the link:

" A patroon was akin to a plantation owner; through the plan, wealthy men in the Netherlands would be given huge tracts of land in the province in exchange for their promise to send at least fifty colonists to settle it. The patroonship system didn't work out very well; only one such colony lasted long, and it was besieged with problems from the start.

One of the shortlived patroonships resulted in the first permanent settlement in what is today New Jersey. What had been Pavonia grew in later years into the cities of Hoboken and Jersey City: gritty, boisterous towns that benefitted from their location just across the water from one of the world's great cities."

It's interesting to note that Hoboken has become quite upscale of late. Won't comment on Jersey City...

Stephani, will be interested in hearing your comments about New Jersey as the discussion progresses.

WOW! ELLA, what really impressed me most about Cooper Union was the statement that they 'provided full scholarships for all their students'! I wonder if that is still true?

STEPHANIE, Walraven, I was told, is an old English name, tho' I've not learned much more about it than that. Now I find that there were Dutch Walravens as well. How fascinating!

Babi

My mother's family (German-French, depending on when they came over- from the Alsace area) settled in Newark. It's funny where these discussions lead. Talk of Cooper Union reminded me of a family who rented from my grandmother. I used to spend time there when a kid. I vaguely remember the boy upstairs- nearly 10 years older than I was. Georgie was quite artistic. He was an art student at Cooper Union. It is still in operation, of course. Not sure about the original buildings though.

What I remember most about George Mueller was his bedroom - not a stick of furniture. He slept on a mat on the floor. After Ella's question on Cooper Union yesterday, I googled George Mueller and found that he did go on and become a recognized artist, showing at the Guggenheim in New York and other prestigious galleries. I smile at his abstract style - just like his old bedroom when a teenager -

I'd love to find him - tell him about this discussion!

BABI, I read that statement about scholarships for all students, also. But as it is an art institute, they probably screen incoming students carefully and only take what they consider the most promising??? Think so?

The original building had that clock in the middle of it and it was in a distinctive location. Large clocks played a role in buildings in the 19th and 20th century. We had a Clock Restaurant in downtown Columbus where the clock sat on a pedestal on the sidewalk in front of the building. Everyone knew that restaurant; it was a gathering place.

JOAN, I love that painting. I love abstracts and that could hang on my wall any day. The artist was inspired from living in a very spare bedroom, hmmmm. Darn, I just bought some new stuff for mine, I should have saved the money?

Joan, I love that painting and am not a big fan of abstracts normally. I think that the Cooper Union is quite selective because they are so specialized. I am having so much fun reading the book before the discussion. Keep falling over lots of my relatives and it is so neat to get an abstract opinion of them.

Ella, it would be fun if this discussion brought the artist - George Mueller - back into our lives. My brother Don is doing a search for him right now.

Stephanie - I hope you don't go too far ahead that you leave us before the discussion starts! Your input is going to be invaluable to us. I've read the first four chapters...am full of questions!

Me, too! I was really drawn to the Mueller painting. The lines are so clean, the colors cool and fresh. I could feel myself relaxing just looking at it. I'm going to go look for some more of his work.

Babi

Bah! I'm having no luck at all. With 'George Mueller' I find only this English evangelist. Adding 'artist' to the search, I find an Otto Mueller. JOAN, where did you find the George Mueller painting, please?

Babi

I'm just catching up on posts. I had a little excitement yesterday - my 60th birthday! Bob took me to the opera - Mozart's Cosi Fan Tutte - at the Bushnell in Hartford. They even had a harpsichord in the orchestra.

Walraven - what an interesting and unusual name. Sounds sort of....Viking. (Maybe I've been watching too many of those Barbarian History Channel programs lately!)

Ann: How interesting that the political speeches are still going on at Cooper Union.

JoanP: We've just set the date in May - Bob and I and our traveling buddies are heading over to New Jersey (Englewood) to take a look at the old Lydecker Dutch colonial homestead to see what condition it's in. Haven't seen it since just after we got married. I'll take pictures. The George Mueller painting is simply beautiful.

Ella: You're from Columbus? My mom is from nearby Marysville. She and my dad met in Columbus at Ohio Wesleyan where he attended college and my mom was the school nurse. Ohio is another state with a very interesting history. I'd like to learn more about it.....

Stephanie: I'm getting so excited about your relatives. This will be so interesting to hear about the ones in our book! Have you seen any of their names in our "Hear Pronunciation of Dutch Colonial Names" link under our "Resources on the Internet" link in the Header above? I think you'll find most of the names there of the people mentioned in our book - plus an audio pronunciation of the names. (Plus lots of other cool info.)

Guess what! Bob and I and, again, our traveling pals are going to drive to Albany tomorrow! Just a day trip. We're going to try to find historic places related to the early Dutch settlers. I've got to do some checking on the web today to get ideas. I'll take pictures if we find anything.

Marni

It's interesting to hear about a new artist - George Mueller. It brings to mind the wonderful paintings of Dutch artists of the Dutch Golden Age - just the time in history that we are reading about. Some of the most famous Dutch artists of the time are listed in our "Hear Pronunciation of Dutch Colonial Names" link that I mentioned above: Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Rijn, Johannes Vermeer, Frans Hals, Anthonie van Dyck, Jan Steen, Gerrit Ter Borch, Pieter de Hoogh, Salomon van Ruysdael, Meindert Hobbema.....

The Wadsworth Atheneum in Hartford has a wonderful collection of Dutch paintings. A few years ago they had a large exhibit of paintings by Pieter de Hoogh - an exhibit of his paintings from collections all over the world. Oh, it was wonderful. You can really see what life was like in 17th century Holland.

Here is de Hoogh's "Courtyard of a House in Delft":

Marni, Happy Belated Birthday! This painting is so familiar. I can't remember why. Did I see it during the Pissarro discussion? I have seen it somewhere recently. It drives me completely nuts when my memory just packs up and goes away. It is a beautiful painting.

Early portraits of Dutch settlers. There is a museum in Cooperstown,NY that has small wonderful small portraits of several of the guiding lights of Dutch society. I was there many years ago and loved it. There are also some portraits in Albany. I will reread the book when we discuss. I just want to go through it on my own without worrying about discussions the first time. I find it is easier for me in book discussion if I read it first and then read it again during the discussion. I lose threads during the discussions.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MARNI!! (I had no idea you were such a youngster.)

..Babi

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MARNI! You are a youngster, indeed!!

It's hard for me to remember that this is taking place at the same time as our discussion of Rembrandt. It seems like a different world. Of course it was.

REMBRANDTS EYES

Thank you for those nice greetings, folks.

Well, my goodness, that Rembrandt's Eyes discussion looks interesting. Is that where you saw the de Hoogh painting, Hats?

When I think of Rembrandt's Eyes, I think of the luminous eyes in the Vermeer painting "Girl With a Pearl Earring." Wasn't that a most wonderful painting and wonderful movie? Did anyone see it? It really gives you a feeling for the times in the Netherlands - the houses, the canals, the people and clothing, etc.

We made our trek to Albany today and had a very nice time. Did you know that Albany is the oldest chartered city in the U.S.? Also, according to Albany, it is the 2nd oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the country.

I did not, however, see old Dutch colonial houses there because they are gone. I did find out that the oldest surviving dwelling in upstate New York is the "Stone House" - now the Bronck Museum - built by Pieter Bronck in 1663. It's somewhat south of Albany in Coxsackie and we didn't see it. Here's a picture of, though, with info:

http://cityguide.pojonews.com/fe/Heritage/stories/he_bronck_museum.asp

We did go up to the observation tower near the NY State Museum and we looked down on the area where Fort Orange was located near the Hudson River. Lots of excavation sites around. We visited the NY State Museum and saw a reproduction of an Iroquois longhouse. And we had a wonderful guided tour of the NY State Capitol building. Oh, my goodness, what a magnificant building. It cost $25 million to build in the 1800's. It's filled with exquisite stained glass windows, stone arches, intricate stone carvings, woodwork, paintings, and stenciling. The museum owns one of 5 (I think 5) first drafts of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation and it's going to be on exhibit there tomorrow. (We missed it.) It's ensured for millions of dollars.

Don't forget to change your clocks for Daylight Savings Time. Oh, no, we lose an hour! It's going to be tough getting up tomorrow!

Marni, maybe I did see it in the Rembrandt's Eyes discussion. I do confess to peeking over the garden fence and enjoying the paintings and posts by Ginny and all of the other posters. I have smacked myself many times for missing that discussion. I hope it will become archived.

Marnie,, Old houses. Schenectady comes closer in their stockade area.. Plus the Schenectady Historical Society has a wonderful book done by a genealogist. She took every street and house in the stockade area and traced the owners of each. Such a neat book. I always loved it and used it to help me find ancestors. Not all of the houses are still in existance, but they tried to find as much information as they could . You have to remember that once upon a time the canal came right through town.. Filled in now, but still took out a lot of stuff.

Which canal are you referring to, Stephanie? The Erie Canal? In Schenectady or Albany? We didn't see anything about the Erie Canal when we were in Albany yesterday. There was supposed to be an exhibit about it in the state museum, but there wasn't anything there yet to speak of. We didn't spot any remains of it, but there must be somewhere in Albany. I'll have to hunt.

I think the Erie Canal ended (began?) in Albany. How does that old song go....."I've got a mule and her name is Sal, 15 miles on the Erie Canal...And we know every inch of the way from Albany to Buffalo..."? I heard the song on Bruce Springsteen's Grammy-winning album "We Shall Overcome: The Seeger Sessions."

You can hear some of "The Erie Canal" here:

http://www.songsforteaching.com/folk/eriecanal.htm

There was (is?) a Canal Street in Manhattan. I wonder who built the canal it refers to? I wonder if the Dutch had a tendency to build canals whenever they settled new places - like their canals at home in the Netherlands?

East of Dallas, TX., there is a road that runs through what must have originally been settled by Dutch immigrants. The houses and barns along that stretch are built in the old Dutch style, and the farms have that tidy, well-cared-for look. Val and I stumbled across it quite by accident, and it was a lovely 'break' in our drive.

Babi

Click here for The Erie Canal

Babi: I wonder what year that Texas area was settled by Dutch immigrants?

Alf: Thanks for the info about the Erie Canal. Oh, what wonderful pictures of the canal! I loved seeing the Rochester Erie Canal Aqueduct. I had been wondering what it looked like. I read thru the list of books provided and I can vouch for Peter Bernstein's Wedding of the Waters: the Erie Canal and the Making of a Great Nation. Excellent book.

Some of the Erie Canal is still in use and there is a lot to see of today's NY canal system and the historic canal. You can ride bikes along the New York State Canalway Trail System. In Rochester you can ride on a boat down the Erie Canal.

http://www.colonialbelle.com/

In Rome, NY, you can visit Erie Canal Village and ride on a mule -drawn packet boat and visit a canal museum.

http://www.eriecanalvillage.net/pages/rides.html

Lockport, NY, has an interesting Erie Canal site where you can see historic Erie Canal Locks 67-71, constructed in 1838 and artifacts left behind by the men who built the tunnel in the early days of the Erie Canal. Lockport also has a live web cam which pans continuously showing boats 'locking through' Locks 34 & 35 of the Erie Canal. It displays a new image every few seconds. Here's the web cam:

http://www.lockportcave.com/lockport_eriecanal_webcam.html

I loved the NY State Museum exhibits, in Albany as well. I took two of the grand-kids through it last summer and they were thrilled with the Indian Village/paraphenalia.
That entire area is riddled with history lessons. Bill's aunt lives in Fort Edward, just a ways up which is an old settlement area, full of history. Saratoga, where the kids live has posts all over the area describing the wars and the settlement, but, kids are kids and they start to "glaze over" once I get going with my stories.

I never looked in Albany, but in Schenectady, you cant miss it. Just off State Street before the stockade is a huge huge street. It is the filled in canal..I had a distant relative that owned a grocery store on Romeyn St. and when I tried to look it up, discovered that the canal had taken away that part of the street and his store with apartment on top. We went on part of the canal in Ohio two summers ago. They have a wonderful canal village restoration and a small part of the canal open with a boat and horses to pull it.. A lovely day..

Some of you were probably on the short horse-drawn canal boat trip during our trip to Wash.D.C. a few years ago for the book festival. A lovely, memorable part of that trip.

Nederland, Texas is the major Dutch settlement town in Texas. It was populated in the 1895-1915 period as part of the land promotion of the Kansas Southern Railroad. The railroads brought in a lot of immigrants in those days, in order to assure customers along their route.

Babi

Marni ~ Happy Birthday! Belated but Sincere!

Thank you, Mippy! My son gave me a belated card. It was so funny. It was one of those old photo ones. A small boy and girl sat naked by the edge of a swimming pool. The boy has his pail on top of his head upside down - like a hat. The words say "Enjoy your birthday. Relax. Put a pail on your head. Whatever." That's what I did.

WOW! As usual this discussion is going full speed ahead.

Some meandering comments: AfricanAmerican/Native American - my mother-in-law was born and raised in Lancaster, S.C. and her grandmother was AA/NA. I don't know if she was Cherokee, but it would make sense. The Pequot Indians of casino fame in CT: many people who have been certified as members of the tribe would appear to have AA ancestry and have been considered AA's by society. My niece was the Youth Director there for sev'l yrs.

I love the stories - w/ some sadness - about how much wildlife there was here in the 1600's. All the men in my family (in south central Penna) were hunters and we ate what they killed. I have skinned and eaten many squirrel, rabbit, turkey, pheasant and even on one ocassion, groundhog - my mother refused to cook one except for that one meal and she was right, it was pretty gamey..... In something i read they talked about there being so many fowl in the Delaware River it appeared that you could have walked across the river on their backs!

My maiden name was Laidig,(pronounced Lii dig, not Laa dig) some of the family spell it Leidig. We always assumed that it was English, but now that i see Leydekker, I'm wondering, uuummmmmm.

Another great club in the Village in the 50's and 60's was Upstairs at the Downstairs. Tended to showcase jazz and comics. I remember Bill Cosby getting started there. My future husband and I went there in the mid-60's. We also went to the Peppermint Lounge (of pop song fame) on that same visit. No other interracial couples there then, bet it would be much different today.

Sam Waterson(ston?) of Law and Order did a recreation of Lincoln at Cooper Union. I don't remember if it was on the History Channel or PBS. Many meetings of the women's suffrage campaign and women attempting to be unionized were held at CU.

I live in South Jersey in the middle of Lenni-Lenape territory and there is an Indian "reservation" re-created near us. They have an interesting festival the first week-end of May each year. The school district next to us has high schools named Lenape, Shawnee and Cherokee. I have always believed from my reading that the Lenni-Lenape were of the Deleware tribe......naturally when i went to get my book about them, i realized that i just taken to the library for their book sale!!! Isn't that always the way? I'll have to dig out my NJ history texts.

O.K., i'm going back and read all the links that you wonderful people have provided.....first a cup of hot chocolate.....

.......jean

BABI: glad you got to see D.C,'s Chesapeake and Ohio canal. They give barge trips on it on weekends. It must be similar to the Erie canal in the way it worked. Mules were hitched to the boat and pulled it, walking along a "towpath" next to the canal. Now this towpath is many people's (including me) favorite place to hike, bike, etc. And watch birds! One spot along it was listed by Roger Tory Peterson as one of the best places in the US to see birds. At a time when I was overwhelmed with raising small children, working, and going to school, I kept myself sane by getting up at 6 am, grabbing my binoculars, and going to walk along the towpath. A different world, and one I will always love.

Babi

"Some of you were probably on the short horse-drawn canal boat trip during our trip to Wash.D.C. a few years ago for the book festival. A lovely, memorable part of that trip."
How right you are, oh my gosh, I almost forgot about that trip down the river. Wasn't that fun?

What a magnificent building the Custom House/Native American Museum is. It would be worth the trip just to look at the building and the sculpture.....thank you Marnie for finding it for us to look at......

I noticed there is a Pearl St in both NYC and Albany, does anyone know why that name seemed popular? Was it for a person?

Marni, you mentioned that Albany had the second oldest continuously inhabited neighborhood, the first is Elfreths Alley in Philadelphia. If any of you visit PHilly, try to see it, the little narrow houses are wonderful and if you're on a tour the guides give a lot of fun info about the people who lived there. And private citizens are still living there today. It's very close to Independence Hall and in the historic district.....jean

Jean: I'm so glad you're here joining us at the tavern for cocoa and our discussion! And the day for our book discussion to begin is growing close - Thursday! Yay! This is so great that you can share with us so much knowledge of New Jersey plus the Native Americans of the area.

Laidig or Leidig does have a very Dutch sound to it. There is Leiden, Holland. Did you see anything like it on the lists of Dutch names in the "audio" link (the very 1st link) in our "Resources on the Internet"?

Thank you for telling us the oldest continuously inhabited neighborhood. I was wondering what it was. And in Philadelphia, no less.

What an interesting question about Pearl Street. Hmmmmm......Do you suppose it had anything to do with the local oysters? Oyster harvesting was an important job right off the bat in Manhattan. We saw an exhibit about the history of the NYC waterfront when we visited the NY State Museum in Albany. There was a shell of an old oyster. You would not have believed the size of the thing. It was a good foot long. Do you suppose they had pearls in them? Pearl Street was right near the waterfront. I wonder if they harvested oysters in the Hudson at Albany - up that far? We learned at the museum that the Hudson River was a "fiord" - the salt water from the ocean backs up the Hudson with high tide - way way way upstate to mingle with the fresh water coming from the river's source in the Adirondack Mts. But, I guess oysters can be fresh water oysters, too.

Speaking of fresh water.....We ate lunch in Albany in an old converted "pump house" - it used to contain machinery that pumped water from the Hudson River to a reservoir to be used for the city drinking water.

Jean's stories of the animals her family ate remind me of our family excitement this evening. We had a bunny in our back yard! Our very first one! (We live right smack in the center of Windsor near downtown.) No plans to eat it, though. Now we've had skunks, raccoons, possums, squirrels, chipmunks, many bird varieties, cats and dogs, and a bunny in our yard - down the street deer, coyotes, and a red fox. The place is going wild!

-------------------------------------

Alf and Babi: That canal trip in Washington must have been so fun! I'd love to do that. We have an old canal and locks in the next town north - Windsor Locks (guess where it got its name) and you can bike there but no boat rides. I wonder if we have wonderful birds there like JoanK saw?

Elfriths Alley is wonderful. We have a friend who owns one of the houses. They are sooo funny. Generally one room wide and then deep and high. Some of the old Dutch names are in strange places. I grew up outside of Dover, Delaware in a teeny little town. Down town in Dover, one of the main streets is Loockerman and sure enough it was named for Govert Loockerman.. who is mentioned in the book.

Sometime this year I think there is going to be a discussion of "The Big Oyster", another book of New York history. Oyster harvesting was a very big part of the early N.Y. economy, and it promises to be as enjoyable a book as I'm finding "Island at The Center of the World". I always enjoyed history back in my school days, but the writers of our history texts were never as interesting as Mr.Shorto! (My nomination for the most intriguing chapter heading ever is Shortos 'The King, the Surgeon, The Turk and the Whore' ! Babi

One of the papers I wrote for Art History in the late 1980s was on the Golden Age in 17th Century Holland. I'll have to go dig around in the file cabinet and see if I can find it. There might be something pertinent to mention here. LOL

Stephanie: Do you have a photo of your friend's house in Elfriths Alley? You could post it or send it to me via email and I can post it up.

Babi: Oh, boy, I'm going to sign up for The Big Oyster. Can't wait! We are going to be such experts on New York by the time this year ends!!!!!

Mary Z: That's exciting about your Dutch art paper! I hope you can find it!

marni, I did find my paper - now I have to read it again. At least I got an "A" (written in 1988).

just visiting, I thought, only It's interesting and you don['t have to read the book to enjoy the conversation. I've got too many going already so I plan to stick around and lurk . . .

Claire

Alas no picture of Claire and Jules house and I know in the winter, they are in their island house.. We were in Holland a few years ago and now reading about where the action was back then and so forth, I am enjoying remembering our wonderful April of tulips and color and rain ( called liquid sunshine in the Netherlands)

The more I learn about the Dutch the more I admire them. 'Liquid sunshine', huh? Now I want to add the Netherlands to the list of places I would love to see (but probably never will). Thank goodness for books, PBS, and National Geographic!

Babi

Oh, good, Mary Z found her A paper!

Claire: Lurk away. We're glad your here.

Babi: I'm with you. I want to visit Holland when I finally travel abroad. (I've never been abroad, but I now finally have my passport.)

Stephanie: Tulips in Holland in April - liquid sunshine - Oh, you lucky!!

Speaking of tulips.....It's practically that time of year here in the northeast. I bought some artificial tulips this week (yellow and orange) because they cheer me up so much - so bright.

Wikipedia has a very interesting article about tulipmania which took place just at the time of our story. Here also is a picture of the most famous tulip of all back then - the Semper Augustus, one of which sold for 6,000 florins at a time when the average yearly income was 150 florins. The article says that "the most spectacular and highly sought-after tulips had vivid colors, lines, and flames on the petals as a result of being infected with a tulip-specific virus known as the Tulip Breaking potyvirus." Just picture those tulip futures traders buying and selling in taverns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

Yes ... Tulip Mania is famous! My husband the economist says that it is used as an example in elementary economics about how markets work, or don't work, and how the value of an item is it's perceived value.

The futures markets in tulips was also famous. People "bet" on the future value of a tulip before they had it in hand; fortunes were made and lost (often) in the futures markets, then as now.

A novel I'm now reading mentions the inflated values of tulips in the time of King James of England, and how his gardener bought very expensive ones. Gardeners figured out how to multiply the bulbs with great care, and thus could earn a great deal themselves. The historical novel is Earthly Joys by Philippa Gregory; it doesn't have much to do with Holland, but is interesting, nevertheless.

Mippy: I really enjoyed that book! Isn't that the one about John Tradescant? He was a real person - a very very famous gardener who lived at the time of our story. I was fascinated by him and then read some biographies about him. Here is some info about him and his son who was also a famous gardener:

http://www.compulink.co.uk/~museumgh/tradescants.htm

There is a non-fiction book called Tulipomania by Mike Dash about that very economic crisis. Imagine, Tulip Futures on the NYSE!

picture of Elfreths Alley

the other side of the street and some info Click here.

If you click on "next stop" you can see some other tourists spots in PHilly

You can barely see the mirrors on the second story windows right in the middle of the picture. They are called "busybodies" and were used by people in the upstairs being able to look out and see who was at their front door - OR just check out who's on the street and what they're doing!

the official website for Elfreth's Alley

sorry i found this last, but it does give a different perspective

jean

Later on, we'll meet "Dr. Tulip", made famous by Rembrandt, who lived in the house of the tulip.

Well, it's not quite the 15th here in California, but it is on the East coast so here we go!!

What a breathtaking first week ahead of us! First to a hidden floor of the NY Public Library (I just love that!), then across the ocean for a quick hundred years of British and Dutch history. We don’t actually get back to Manhattan until next week, but we go everywhere else – whizzing across the oceans with the explorers, before we join the first Dutch settlers on Governors Island and New Jersey.

There’s so much to talk about, I don’t know where to start. (I can think of half a dozen subjects that deserve discussions of their own). So I’ll leave it to you all. Hang on to your hats. Don’t forget to grab your cup of beer or cocoa. LET’S GO!

What does the New York Mets baseball uniform have in common with the official flag of New York City?

ANSWER: They both are the colors orange, blue, and white - the same colors as the flag of the Dutch Republic at the time the Dutch founded New Amsterdam.

Check out the official seal of New York City on the NYC flag....

See the windmill in the center?.....the Indian?.....the date 1625?.....and even some beavers??!!! And....hmmmmm.....I'm not sure, but that looks like a colonist.....Could it be a Dutchman?

I was so excited to see these on the official NYC flag! They tell us that the city's early history is with us today! Just what we're reading about. The timing is so perfect - a beaver lodge was spotted last month on the Bronx River - first beaver since their extinction in NYC 200 years ago.

So let's get to our book. Aaahhhh, the old tavern.....I've grabbed my beer.......

Marni

Shorto is an interesting writer. He does tend to exaggerate a bit now and then though. I loved the discussion on Henry Hudson since I really knew very little of him other than discovering the river. My genealogy research says that the first colonists were mostly not dutch,,but the book seems to pin the first colonists ( not generally considered in genealogical studies) as soldiers. They too were more likely to be other nationalities.. The Dutch were merchants and ships captains..

I'll tell you one person I had heard of, but still found myself gaping with astonishment at what I learned here. I knew of John Smith from as far back as elementary school. But never did I hear that he "had fought in Hungary against the Turks, was captured and sold into slavery in Istanbul, won the heart of his female captor, escaped to Transylvania via Russia, and trekked across North Africa,-- all before his twenty-fifth birthday."

WOW! There must be a book out there somewhere about this astonishing man. Why haven't I found it before now? I definitely want to read more about John Smith.

Babi

Well Babi

I think this is the guy.

Captain John Smith

And National Geographic shows JS here with pochahontis in their film . THE NEW WORLD

can we use pictures? it is a pretty colorful time?

Claire

Wow! What a find. The NY City flag- I had no idea. I am stammering, aren't I? This book is filled with what I do not know about my state birth place.
I love the flag and its colors, with the beavers, the windmill (mind you), and the Dutchman surrounded by their old Dutch Republic colors. I am impressed with their creativity. The first chapter tells us that America's beginnings is distinctly a European tale.

Like Babi I thought that John Smith was a colonist who fought for the hand of Pocahontas. I never pictured him as handsome as this dude above but dressed more austerely, with authority and pomp.

I attended a lecture yesterday about Yeats and believe it or not the Professor was talking at length about Francis Drake and his adventures, after being secretly commissioned by the Queen. I haven't read or heard about Drake for years and the minute I start to read this book, up he pops during a lecture being sent next to Ireland to help quell the rebellion there from 1573 to 1576. that always amazes me how our discussions thread all over another faction of life.

Anyway, this settlement of New Netherland became our multi-ethnic society of today. One tends to forget the military initiatives that were necessary and the sacrifices that were made to tame this wilderness.

Stephanie: I agree. I think Shorto is a very interesting writer. He has made history come alive for me. He is excited about his subject; he has done so much research; and I am simply blown away by the information almost none of which I knew about before. I hope he's not exaggerating too much because I love this story! (He seems to have an excellent reputation, though, from what I've been reading.)

I found it so interesting what you said about the first colonists being mostly soldiers. That kind of fits in with what I've read about some other early explorations - like the Spanish in Central and South America, for example - Cortez, Coronado. It makes sense that strong, extraordinarily brave and daring men would be the first to head out (with their weapons) into the unknown and later report back home. Traders and settlers, it would seem, would follow once they knew some more about what they were getting themselves into.

What did you think of Henry Hudson's personality? Do you think character is a key element of discovery?

How unknown was the unknown in Hudson's case? Where did Henry Hudson get his ideas about sea passageways? Where was he trying to go, anyway?

BaBi and Claire: Wasn't that a shocker to find out about John Smith!? I had no idea. I did see the recent movie "The New World" but I was so disappointed. Beautiful cinematography. But it was mostly scenes of Captain John Smith and Pocahontas mooning at each other. It was totally boring.

Guess what. I found John Smith's A Description of New England (1616) on the internet. You can read it right on your computer here:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/etas/4/

What a surprise to read in our book how Smith had explored the Chesapeake and New England territory and gave Henry Hudson some of his ideas! Smith does make himself sound like quite the lover, doesn't he. But perhaps he was. Quite an exotic guy. I bet many women would have found his exploits and his bravery quite fascinating and sexually compelling. Drake, too. Remember Queen Elizabeth's fascination for Drake?

I'm finding out more and more famous people were slaves - John Smith, Julius Caesar, Cervantes.....

Alf: Wasn't that NYC flag cool! I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it and the seal! I learned about it in Shorto's book and just had to see it with my own eyes.

Here's a picture and info about Henry Hudson's ship Half Moon (Halve Maen):

http://www.hrmm.org/halfmoon/1609moon.htm

It was built in Albany, NY.

Patwest has posted our Week 1 Discussion Questions in our Header above. Thanks, Patwest.

Ah good old Henry Hudson. He is my hero in this story. The pictures of the Half Moon are wonderful Marni and it gives us an idea of the difficulties encountered by this man’s decision to attempt such a voyage. Suffering through winds, ice, vicious storms, even a whale underneath ready to capsize the ship, Henry was not deterred.

What a shame that one of the major problems of the Hudson River Valley in this century has been the severe pollution by industrial wastes and sewage.

At the beginning of the book, Shorto's writing style does hold our attention, and I don't criticize his occasional emphasis. I have a bit of doubt later on, but enough said.

Regarding the "lost" history, I think scholars were aware of a lot of this material, but it had not been easy to find for more general readers. So we are indebted to the author for his research, making the history available to us. But I don't believe everything was lost to historians, and I don't think this will affect teaching of American history at the High School or college-entry level. There is a huge amount of inertia when it comes to teaching new material, don't you think?

Alf and winsum! Welcome! I just realized I didn't officially greet you to our discussion. I'm so glad you are here! I hope you've made yourselves comfortable with some cocoa or (my preference) a hearty beer.

Alf: Hudson certainly had that indominable spirit. He was a determined man. Did it surprise you how he went against orders in order to follow his dream to find the Northwest Passage?

That boat was only 85 feet long. Can you imagine? I simply cannot fathom having the courage do head out into the unknown in a wee boat, simply guessing where to go, and in the vast ocean - with whales - no less. And then to keep at it when your men are grumbling and ready to mutiny?

And Hudson took his young son with him!

About the polution of the Hudson River - I was so surprised to find out last weekend that people are still using the Hudson River water for their drinking water. Some acquaintances of mine who live in upstate NY near the Hudson have a well. They're finding that as the Atlantic Ocean is rising (global warming?), the salt water is going farther up the Hudson with the tides. (It's a fiord.) The salt water in the Hudson is now getting into their drinking water.

Each of these men played a vital role in the founding of the new city, I believe. Our text says " Fate, it seemed, had brought together the men, the means and the time."
Dee was an insightful student that started the ball rolling. He was amazed at what he learned from Frisius, a mathematician and "charter of the heavens.” When studying Frisius’s maps, Dee buddied up with Kremer, ( AKA Mercator) a brilliant cartographer and engineer to chart the navigational maps that were used.

Mercator, from what I understood is the gentleman who devised the latitude/longitude lines that are used still today in navigation.
He also is the first man to use the word “atlas”, in referring to a group of maps.

I became so interested in Mercator and his accomplishments that I found this briefly in Encarta. It says it so better than I did.

"The familiar Mercator projection, developed mathematically by the Flemish geographer Gerardus Mercator, is related to the cylindrical projection, with certain modifications. A Mercator map is accurate in the equatorial regions but greatly distorts areas in the high latitudes. Directions, however, are represented faithfully, and this is especially valuable in navigation. Any line cutting two or more meridians at the same angle is represented on a Mercator map as a straight line. Such a line, called a rhumb line, represents the path of a ship or an airplane following a steady compass course. Using a Mercator map, a navigator can plot a course simply by drawing a line between two points and reading the compass direction from the map."

The other Jersey girl checking in from the other side of the river. Jean, so glad you are standing here on the bank with me - especially since you know so much more than I do about the Indian tribes and early Dutch settlements than I do - the patroon of Pavonia was the first in 1630.

I didn't recognize any of those names - except Mercator of the longitude and latitude lines. Just had a conversation with Bruce about the "Mercator Projection" - he says that Mercator's maps were distorted showing Greenland bigger than Africa because he set out his map of the world as a perfect rectangle.

Clearly, we are all going to learn a lot from Shorto's book - and from this discussion too!

Edit: hahaha, Andy! We were posting at the same time! I've often said my Bruce is a walking encyclopedia! My own personal "Encarta"..............

Hi, Mippy! Boy, you said it about the "lost" history being not easy to find. Wasn't that quite a story in the Prologue about Dr. Charles Gehring up on "the missing floor" of the NY State Library, huddling alone year after year translating archaic Dutch historic documents? I couldn't help but wonder why someone would even be interested in learning an archaic Dutch language to be able to read the documents. Each to his own, I guess.

The archives themselves have a fascinating history. It makes you realize how amazingly lucky it is that historic documents actually survive at all.

Alf and JoanP: Golly, the info about the Mercator map with its projections and rhumb lines has me somewhat befuddled, I must say. I start hearing numbers and my brain shuts off. But navigators got it. Mercator's map cleared things right up for them, it seems, and made it easier for them to navigate.

Wikipedia has a picture of the Mercator map, which is one of the most famous maps ever created. Click on it to make it larger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercator_projection

"Fate, it seemed, had brought together the men, the means and the time." I find that question of "does man make the times, or do the times make the man?(including women)" to be everlasting in discussing history. And along w/ that is this situation of how people of similar interests come together to make an amazing event happen. Of course, the most amazing one is the Constitutional Convention, but this is also one of those interesting/amazing situations.

I, for one, will be including more info about HH and the Dutch in NY in my college history classes. I really have neglected them. But it symbolizes how what history gets written and what history gets emphasized is very serendipitous. I have always told my students be to aware of that. I tend to put music history in my classes where i can because i'm a music lover, but Claire would obviously include more art, etc. etc. A lot depends on the interest of the researcher/writer/teacher.

An aside: i will send your question about the Mets to my niece who is one of the public relations directors for the Mets. Her story is interesting and has a lesson. She grew up in NOrth Jersey and spent a lot of time w/ her Nana who was an avid Mets fan - after the Dodgers left town - so she watched and went to Mets games often. While a junior English major at Princeton, she wrote the Mets a letter saying what a fan she was and why and did they have an intern position available for the summer........they said YES! and she has worked for them ever since, almost 15 yrs.......the moral of the story that i reapeat to every one i know is: ALWAYS ASK! you can't get anything worse than a "no" but you might get a "YES".......jean

What a great story about your niece. Do you think that she will know the answer to the question? I ask!

Whew just read 114 posts in order to catch up - some of those links I just had to linger over - the customs building statuary was marvelous and the garden link was another - I need to go back when I have time and look further at the garden link...

Found this site about the Dutch in Texas and had no idea that within a close drive away Bastrop has a connection to Dutch Heritage

We see so much Mexican tile work here but it is the Dutch tile work that has always cheered me, especially if I see a photo of the blue and white tile with a brass fixture nearby and maybe a pot of daffodils.

And so I wonder if there are any shops or any of these old houses in the US that use the blue and white Delft Tile - and what about - are the fields surrounding some of these historical homes covered with daffodils or tulips?

Who would have thought??? He had already lived a pretty full life by the time he reached 25 and now he's going to win Pochahontus's hand! What a guy! And he was Henry Hudson's friend, right?

If I understand this correctly, the soldiers were here first at Ft Orange. Were they considered Dutch emigrants, even though they were immigrants in the Netherlands? I believe the Walloons were French folks. Were some of them soldiers from Holland?

Last year, we watched a program about a grandson of maybe, Amundsen, trying to recreate his grandfather's trip to Hudson Bay, including going without any modern technology. I believe they even built the boat they used by hand. Anyone else see that interesting series?

Jean: I simply love what you said about the men, the means and the time and the Constitutional Convention as another example. You reminded me of one of my heroes - Alexander Hamilton. Not only did Hamilton play an important part in creating the Constitution, but he was so determined to sell the Constitution once it was written. Sometimes, to get something important done, you need huge determination and willpower, boundless energy, grit, and the power of persuasion. And even then, timing is everything. And maybe luck, too.

A lot of politics involved in the creation and ratification of the Constitution.

Do you think politics played an important role in our story?

MABEL: "does man make the times, or do the times make the man?(including women)" is a fascinating question. I guess I believe that the times nourish the man/woman. So that many people who are born in non-nourishing times live their lives with their potential unrealized, or unrecognized. (But that doesn’t explain the individuals who seem to come from nowhere).

George Mead suggested something like this: we all have parts of us that are reflections of society, and parts that are individual. If a person does something original that does not “fit” his/her times, it tends to get lost. But if it fits a potential that was there, it gets picked up, and can transform society.

BARBARA: Dutch in Texas? Who knew? And there are several Dutch communities still there.

Maybe knowledge of these early pioneers is growing. In the NY Times Crossword puzzle a few days ago, one of the clues was something like (I can't find it) early settler of America, and the answer was Holland! (Shamefully, I didn't get it til I had a lot of letters. I really NEED this book).

ANN: I don't know about the Waloons. Shorto wants to emphasize the diversity of the group, though. I don't take him to mean that there were no Dutch. He doesn't say where the women came from. Perhaps most of them were Dutch.

I wish I had seen that program. Was it on PBS? They usually repeat.

I love the story of Mercator. He sounds like a fascinating person. Does anyone know a biography of him?

It appears that all the books on Capt. John Smith deal only with his association with Jamestown. I don't know about the Barbour book; I can't find it.

Q 2. The key difference I'm seeing between the Low Countries and England in the beginning, is religious tolerance. The Dutch Republic had it; England didn't. There is another important difference, but that doesn't come up until later.

Babi

What a lot to digest in all the posts and the book! What a lot to learn and it is fascinating.

Imagine first of all a young man writing a doctoral dissertation on 17th century Dutch language (what was his major?) and then spending the next 26 years translating old moldy documents! 26 years! Laboring away on that "missing" floor with little or no staff help. I mean, who could help?

And I never thought about who writes history, or who wrote ancient history, and I learn that the reason we didn't know much about the early Dutch settlers was because early American history was written by Englishmen who hated the Dutch!

They weren't about to give credit to any Dutchmen and yet the Dutch Republic in the 1600's was "the most progressive and culturally diverse society in Europe! Ignored by the English..............

Well the Dutch didn't have Shakespeare!

Religious tolerance, yes. We learned in the Rembrandt discussion that it wasn’t quite that simple. There was a lot going on in Holland at that time, and those favoring tolerance had to work for it. But in a Europe where people were routinely persecuted for their religious beliefs, Amsterdam really stands out. We just read about a group of officials that were painted by Rembrandt consisting of two Catholics, a Calvinist, a Menonite, and a Remonstrant patrician.

I’m anxious to see what the other difference will be.

ELLA: yes – I’m fascinated by him. I wonder who taught him? Is there a cadre of Medieval Dutch experts?

And 26 years in a hidden office, translating these papers. If he loves it, it has to be the best job in the world. If he doesn’t, the worst. Since Shorto says he has laugh lines, I assume the best.

What about the rest of us. Does this change your idea of how history is written?

Though I am originally a New Englander, I lived in New York state for almost twenty years. When my former husband got out of graduate school in Maryland, we moved north to a duplex on Grand Island in the Niagara River between Buffalo and Niagara FAlls. While we were there, my second son was born in a hospital in the city of Niagara Falls. My daughter was born four years later in Buffalo.

We moved from Grand Island, to the Town of Tonawanda, just over the bridge. Incidentally, Grand Island, New York is the largest inland island in the United States. Several years and some job transfers later we moved from Indianapolis, Indiana to the township of Goldens Bridge in Westchester County, NY.

We bought a ten room house on a steep hill. It cost less than the houses a little south of there in what is now known as "Bedford." Bedford is the name of the township, not a city or town. In it are many small villages. Upstate residents in the eastern part of New York seem to fancy the word "village" over "town."

My then husband worked first in White Plains and then in Manhattan. I got in to shop and see shows and go to art galleries and concerts fairly often.

In the 80's, my second son (born in Niagara Falls) bought an apartment on West Fifty-Seventh Street in Manhattan. I was divorced and living in Florida then, but managed to get to the "city" at least once a year to get my fill of art galleries and museums. When we lived in Westchester, of course I went to Manhattan more often.

There are plenty of Dutch names in Westchester County, north of Manhattan. The Buffalo area is loaded with Polish names. Of course, there was a Roosevelt who lived part-time in Hyde Park on the Hudson River, northwest of Manhattan. Isn't Roosevelt a Dutch name? Isn't Vanderbilt? I think so.

At any rate, that briefly is my affiliation with the Empire State. Thanks for letting me join in!

Mal

Forgot to mention that I was in Holland in the 70's. It was Spring, and some residents of the Hague, where we stayed, took me to Scheveningen to see the tulips. Amazing, as were the Delftware, windmills, canals, and World War II bunkers I saw. Not to mention American TV shows in Dutch with English subtitles.

Mal

Barbara: I just spotted your post. I'm not sure how I missed it before. Looks like the topic of the Dutch in Texas is a whole discussion in itself.

I was hoping someone would mention Delft tiles. I thought someone might when I posted the de Hoogh painting of the Delft courtyard. Here are some pretty ones:

http://www.pavetile.com/collectionsdelftcrackled/collectiondelfthp_css.html

The historic houses in the New York area won't have daffodils or tulips quite yet - a bit early plus we're getting another big snow/ice storm tomorrow.

------------------------------------------

Mal: Welcome! This is a pleasant surprise. And you have a lot to share with us about New York. My dad's family lived in Buffalo for quite a number of years when he was young - across from the Buffalo Zoo. Did you ever go there?

Also, you lived in a town near a town where I lived for awhile in New York - Port Chester. Did you ever drive through Port Chester on your way to CT?

Roosevelt is definitely a Dutch name.

Marni

MARNI, of course, I know Portchester. My oldest grandchild, Megan, lives in a loft there with her boyfriend right now! Meggie is my son Rob's daughter. Her Dad, my son, died very suddenly in April, 2005, almost two years ago. It's hard to believe.

Mal

Ann: I saw your question about the Walloons. I read somewhere that they were a group who lived in Belgium and spoke French. I guess another group in Belgium spoke Dutch. I don't know if they were actually French who moved there or what. Belgium has an interesting history and was part of the Netherlands at one time.

Speaking of the history of that neck of the woods.....and Tolerance - Boy, that's an important word in this book and in New York. Religious tolerance and perhaps tolerance of other things?

How could it happen that one country would develop a reputation of relative tolerance in a world of intolerance?

Oh, Mal, that is so very sad about your son. I'm so sorry.

Here I am looking up in an antique site for early Dutch anything - finding lots of tiles from 1625 to 1650 and low and behold a couple of books - original 1822 - price $95 - author, Dietrich Knicerbocker

WELL Did You Know??? It was Dietrich Knickerbocker, one of Washington Irving's pseudonym, who started this whole Knickerbocker deal - his first book was A History of New-York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty by Dietrich Knickerbocker ( 1809) Irving also used Geoffrey Crayon Gent and Jonathan Oldstyle as pen names.

The book was published in London in 1822. Irving's book is a comic history of the Dutch regime in New York. The book became part of New York folklore, and eventually the word Knickerbocker was also used to describe any New Yorker who could trace their family to the original Dutch settlers.

AND he has a town in the book that they attribute to the word Gotham as in Gotham city. A 16th Century meaning of "Gotham" is a town of fools, as in "the wise men of Gotham." Used in "Dietrich Knickerbocker's" fictional account of New York.

Hermen Jansen Knickerbocker was a real man, born in Holland, who lived in Albany and purchased land near Red Hook New York.

Remember when we were kids and the boys all wore Knickerbockers till they were in about the 8th grade - well again, the name came form the character's dress in this book and was typical of the earlier silver buckled pants that the Dutch wore but were out of fashion for grown men by the time Irving wrote his book.

Has anyone had a Knickerbocker Glory Dudley had one and he threw a tantrum because his knickerbocker glory wasn't big enough, Uncle Vernon bought him another one, and Harry Potter was allowed to finish the first, in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

And to top it off it was Dietrich Kinckerbocker who started our version of Santa Claus & Christmas

Here it is - A History of New-York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty, by Dietrich Knickerbocker

MAL: great to see you! How interesting that you lived in New York State several different times and places. Do you see any common “New York” features in the different areas?

Barbara: I never read Irving’s books, and didn’t realize they gave us knickerbocker and gotham (I always wondered where that came from. The link on knickerbocker folly says it’s a sundae called knickerbocker because it’s striped red and white like knickerbocker socks that girls wore. But their reference doesn’t mention socks, but panties or women’s underwear.

I’ve often seen women’s underwear referred to as “knickers” in British books. Here is Wickepedia’s explanation:

"George Cruikshank, whose illustrations are classic icons for Charles Dickens' works, also did the illustrations for Washington Irving's droll History of New York when it was published in London. He showed the old-time Knickerbockers, Irving's fictitious Dutch colonial family, in their loose Dutch breeches, and by 1859, short loose ladies' undergarments, a kind of abbreviated version of pantalettes or pantaloons, were "knickers' in England".

Source: KNICKERS

Here goes.. Roosevelt and Vanderbilt were both Dutch descent, but much later than this time period. Walloons.. Are considered to be from Belgium, but in the part of Belgium next to France. Many people from this area came to the Netherlands early on because of the intolerance of religious faith. Isaac Allerton who was a Mayflower person came to Long Island to get away from the puritans.. New Netherlands attracted people from all over. I have never liked Peter Minuet, but I think Shorto did an excellent job of portraying him. Most of the dutch tried hard to stay on an even keel with the Indians and the Albany area really worked at it. Many of the traders there depended on the Indians to help them in the beaver trade. Beavers in Albany-Schenectady were the most important cash crop they had. I have some problems with his constant discussion of Rapalje, since he was just one of the first settlers and not even the most important one at that. I loved his discussions on food and the how and why of the settlement patterns. Information like this is hard to obtain. I know how disappointed I was manay many years ago when I started in Genealogy to discover that the Dutch were sadly neglected by historians.

MARNIE. I just noticed your questions above - I have never heard of any of the people you mention in Q.#1. This is all new to me as is the Dutch Republic, although I have an adorable D.P.Delft bud vase brought to me by my daughter who roams the world. I had a Certificate of Authenticity that went with it but I'm not sure whether it made the BIG MOVE into widowhood or not.

I don't remember reading about the events that shaped the Dutch Republic - can you post them? Are they in the book? I'll have to skim back aways and see.

But I do know that TOLERANCE, TOLERANCE, TOLERANCE was a Dutch characteristic that helped to shape the colony and I suppose we could say helped shape the country. Thankfully, the Puritan way did not influence our development; although we still occasionally will refer to our "puritan" roots to explain our morality (or what is left of it, hahaha)

Now, of course, how did the Dutch become so tolerant? Back to the book.

Well, at least, the delving into what it available about the Dutch history in America has begun and looks to keep many historians very busy for many years. Yes, Shorto does tell us about the Walloons being chosen and sworn in to come to the Manhatten area's Ft Orange.

Was anyone as surprised as I to learn about the whaling enterprise off Spitzbergen Island started the decimation of the whale population? That was 400 years ago!

What happened in the Dutch countries to make them so tolerant? They weren't very far from England and the Continent. I need to know some earlier history about the Dutch and their tolerance of most differences in all peoples who showed up on their doorstep. Not only that, they had already carved out a republic or a democracy similar to ours. What brought that on?

From what I understand the Dutch were very tolerant. They were also rich. Did I read that right? The Delft Blue tiles are beautiful. Marni, thank you for the link.

Hmmm, I tried three times to put a link to a picture of Rembrandt House Museum here and failed. Wonder what I am doing wrong?

Your post was so filling! I must go back and look at the links that you put there. Knickbocker Holiday?? Wasn't that a movie?? Did the title mean a vacation in NYC?

Mal

I remember that you lived in Indy right near my in-laws whose home was just north of 16th street on Kessler Blvd. They were there until 1972, I believe. Indianapolis is my hometown and it was fun to read your little paragraph(somewhere on the net, now lost in time) about it.

Here you go: Knickerbocker Holiday annnnnnnnnnd

Rembrandt House Museum

If you roll the page down to Paul's pics, there are other Amsterdam pictures of museums, the Anne Frank house, and artworks.

STEPHANIE: I understand that Belguim is still divided into a French-speaking area and a Belgian-speaking area.

Interesting that you don’t like Peter Minuit. Next week, when we discuss him more, I’d like to know why.

I think in Rapalje, Shorto just wanted to give us an ordinary non-famous settler whom we could relate to. Just as newspapers always start a story by discussing one individual. Shorto probably chose one that wasn’t famous deliberately. Do you think it’s an effective technique?

ELLA and ANN: “how did the Dutch become so tolerant? “ And how come they already had a Republic when the rest of Europe had monarchies?Those are the $64,000 questions. Any ideas, anyone? HATS: was it because they were rich?

ANN: thanks for the movie. I’ll put it on my netflicks queue and let you know.

I couldn’t get to the picture of the Rembrandt house museum on the link. GINNY spent hours there and was thrilled by it..

There are several links between what we are reading, and some of Rembrandt’s paintings. I’ll post on that later.

I've been locked out of my computer room because the ceiling is being painted. Now I'm back.

Barbara! My mouth is hanging open I'm so agog at your findings! How absolutely COOL! The Gotham City and knickerbocker and St. Nicholas info! Knickers. I have pictures of my dad wearing knickers - those short pants with the knee socks? - and that's what he called them. Thank you so much for the link to Irving's History of New York. I'm going to ask Patwest to add that link to our Resources on the Internet.

Stephanie: I'm interested, too, in why you never liked Peter Minuit. I was very impressed with him, but am only seeing him from Shorto's description.

Ella: Those men mentioned in Question #1 were mentioned in the chapter "The Measure of Things" - pg. 16 in my book. So you have a picture of the bud vase you can show us? Delftware is so beautiful.

Anyone want to take a crack at listing a few of the events that led to the formation of the Dutch Republic? (I was so surprised to find out that the Spanish had conquered the Dutch. I had no idea.) (The story of this republic is amazing.) Did this have anything to do with the tolerance that developed in the Dutch Republic?

I think we'll find out later in the book that the Puritans definitely had an impact on shaping our country, as well as the Dutch.

Hats: It does seem as though many Dutch in their Golden Age (I doubt they all were!) were rich. They've been called "a nation of merchants." Why was trading important for them and what and how did they trade?

Ann: I'm still laughing about the movie. A Nelson Eddy film!!!! (Remember those old Nelson Eddy/Jeanette McDonald duets?) Thanks for the link to the museums.

Marni

For nearly four years now, I've been researching the early history and life stories of the inhabitants and settlers of the new world. I stumbled across the existance of these early documents during that research. This particular book conveys the historical significance of the earliest settlers in this region. It is an important and critical glimpse into our true American history, of that region, and for some, the personal stories of our ancestors. While it may sound niave at best, I was amazed to learn that until 1974, these papers were available and unsuccessfully transcribed. I found myself asking, how different could the early Dutch language be from today?

The documents tell an amazing story. Whether you are interested in the significance of their economic view and practice of world-wide trade, their early societal experiences or their efforts to co-exist with the Native peoples, you will truly enjoy reading Shorto's book. These documents, some of which were private journals and official papers have led to other books as well. For example, the journal of Harmen Meyndertsz Van Den Bogaert was transcribed and tells an equally fascinating story about his journey into Mohawk and Oneida Country, 1634-1635.

Just to let you all know that I will be lurking, probably not posting. I took the book out of the public library but I can see that I will never be able to finish it by the due date back...or any extensions to it. In just the first 49 pages (I obeyed the rules..lol), I have already learned much. Julie

In the chapter "The Island" we learn something of the history of the United Provinces. The Prince of Orange played an important role.

What was Orange, anyway? Does anyone know? Is it a province in the Netherlands? A city?

I know the Prince of Orange had his own flag - colors were orange, blue and white. The colors of the flag of the Prince of Orange became the colors of the flag of the Dutch Republic - up until 1630 or so. I read that gradually the orange was changed to red so that it could be seen more easily??? (And now the colors of that flag of the Prince of Orange are the colors of the flag of NYC and of the NY Mets.)

I know that one Prince of Orange - William of Orange, the stadtholder, and husband of Mary, sister of James II of England (I think) became King of England when James II was kicked out of his job because he was Catholic. (Do I have this right?)

If you're interested, Wikipedia has some information about what the stadtholder was and how the position changed over time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtholder

nfash: Welcome to our discussion! It's wonderful to hear your enthusiasm of the book and the subject. You've done so much research in this area! Your knowledge will add so much to our discussion.

I tried to find the Van Den Bogaert journal online (Shorto mentions it in our book), but it seems to be available only for sale, not a free e-book. If anyone is interested, you can buy it on Amazon and elsewhere:

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Mohawk-Oneida-Country-1634-1635/dp/0815625464

seniorlady: Lurk away! And feel free to post. I hope you are able to read at least some of the book in the time you have it. It really is a most amazing story.

Marni

NFASH and JULIE: WELCOME WELCOME!! How exciting!NFASH:I hope you will share what you have learned from Harmen Meyndertsz Van Den Bogaert’s journal with us.

JULIE: GREAT! Don’t be shy – most of us are learning along with you. Our reactions to what we learn are a valuable part of the discussion.

You all, pull up a chair and a cup of cocoa or stein of beer and join us.

The Protestant Dutch got their fill of intolerance from the Spaniards who dominated the country, and most of Europe, until the defeat of the Armada in the 17th century. They were fully persuaded that intolerance was not to be tolerated! Furthermore, tolerance was much more profitable, and the Dutch were a very practical people.

I am also reading Abba Eban's "HERITAGE: Civilization and the Jews". I knew there was a long association of Amsterdam, Jews, and the diamond industry, so I looked to see what Eban might have said on the subject. I found the following:

"The city of Amsterdam has long had a special relationship with the Jews. Since the end of the 16th century,when Jews first came there from Spain and Portugal, they and other groups had found an atmosphere of religious tolerance and political security. Amsterdam has always had a tradition of respect for diversity, for individuality, for the right of people to think and do as they please. And, therefore, this city evokes a special intimacy and affection in Jewish hearts>"

High praise, indeed!

Babi

Marni ~ Love to answer your posts, suggesting looking up information;
some history of the Netherlands is given here. House of Orange mentioned when you scroll down.

Dutch History

The establishment of the House of Orange is given in more detail here:

House of Orange

BABI: high praise, indeed! Rembrandt lived in a Jewish section of Amsterdam, and incorporated some Hebrew writing in some of his Biblical paintings -- I assume he must have consulted with local Jews (with my really elementary Hebrew, I think I caught him in a Hebrew mistake. I haven't checked it with anyone knowledgeable, though. If I'm wrong and he's right, I don't want to know. Since I can't spell in English, I don't know why I think I can in Hebrew).

Here is a link to Rembrandt's "The Jewish Bride". Click on the picture to enlarge. This Jewish couple must have been wealthy and accepted enough to have their portrait painted by Rembrandt, at a time when Jews in other countries were being persecuted:

THE JEWISH BRIDE

And here is Rembrandt's "Belshazzar's Feast". Balshazzar is seeing the Hebrew writing on the wall --"mene, mene ..." The words start on the right and read down. (click to enlarge).

HEBREW WRITING BY REMBRANDT

Oh, BaBi, thank you for the Eban quote. I've copied it into my notes. You stated something that seems very important: that "tolerance was much more profitable, and the Dutch were a very practical people."

Mippy: The Rembrandt paintings you and JoanK linked us to are breathtaking. Simply beyond words. The Wikipedia site you linked us to is so excellent - so clear and concise a history of the Dutch. I just spent a whole hour reading there and plan to go back. My heavens, the Dutch have a long history of turbulence, mergings of cultures, nationalities, and religions, and they have a long history of rebellions against tyranny.

I'm going to quote several items from the site:

"Around 1000, farmers from Flanders and Utrecht began purchasing the swampy land {in western Netherlands}, draining it and cultivating it. This process happened quickly and the uninhabited territory was settled in only a few generations. They built independent farms that were not part of villages, something unique in Europe at the time......"

"As the cities grew in wealth and power, they started to buy certain privileges for themselves from the sovereign, including city rights, the right to self-government and the right to pass laws...."

"This trade was vital to the people of Holland, because Holland could no longer produce enough grain to feed itself. Land drainage had caused the peat of the former wetlands to reduce to a level that was too low for drainage to be maintained...."

"'On February 16, 1568 a sentence of the Holy Office [Inquisition] condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics. From this universal doom only a few persons, especially named, were acquitted. A proclamation of the king [Philip II of Spain], dated ten days later, confirmed this decree of the Inquisition and ordered it to be carried out into instant execution without regard to age and sex. This is the most concise death warrant that had ever been framed. Three million people—men, women and children—were sentenced to the scaffold.'" (The Rise of the Dutch Republic, by John Lathrop Motley) His attempts to enforce religious persecution of the Protestants and his endeavours to centralise government, justice and taxes made him unpopular and led to a revolt. The Dutch fought for independence from Spain, leading to the Eighty Years' War (1568-1648). Seven rebellious provinces united in the Union of Utrecht in 1579 and formed the Republic of the Seven United Netherlands [aka United Provinces]...."

"As the Netherlands was a republic, it was largely governed by an aristocracy of city-merchants called the regents, rather than by a king. Every city and province had its own government and laws, and a large degree of autonomy. After attempts to find a competent sovereign proved unsuccessful, it was decided that sovereignty would be vested in the various provincial Estates, the governing bodies of the provinces. The Estates-General, with its representatives from all the provinces, would decide on matters important to the Republic as a whole. However, at the head of each province was the stadtholder of that province, a position held by a descendant of the House of Orange. Usually the stadtholdership of several provinces was held by a single man...."

"Part of the wealth of the Dutch came through slavery. In 1619 Dutch started with the slave trade between Africa and America, by 1650 becoming the pre-eminent slave trading country in Europe, a position overtaken by Britain around 1700...."

"Tolerance was important, because a continuous influx of immigrants was necessary for the economy...."

I just received a phone call from a friend asking me to go see a new movie about the English slave trade and its abolishment. Naturally, I couldn't go as I am having two guests tonight. Sister, Mary, will be here shortly from Indy and its the youngest gran's sleepover night. We will be busy!

I am off to JoanK's links before everyone arrives.

Barbara, thanks for explaining the Knickerbocker Glory. As it happens, I had just reread the first Harry Potter as the start of my preparation for July 21 (when the last book appears) and I wondered about it.

Last year I was lucky enough to go to an exhibit of Rembrandt's late religious portraits at the National Gallery of Art (DC). He was living in the Jewish section at the time, and used local models. Only one, number 15, is credited in this link, but others were mentioned in the notes on the walls. Here is the link:

Religious Portraits

The faces are incredible--I'm grateful to have gotten a chance to see this exhibit.

Aaahhhhh....I was thinking about beer this evening after listening to green beer ads on TV for St. Patrick's Day. And of course I thought of - what else? Knickerbocker Beer. Remember that?

The Good Old Days of Beer in New York by Vince Capano

"Historians can and do argue which is the oldest bar in New York City but they all agree that beer was always an integral part of life in the former New Amsterdam. Indeed, as early as 1612 New York was able to boast that it was the only city in American that had threeflourishing, commercial breweries. One, owned by the Governor of the state, Otto Van Twiller, was actually erected very near the site of the present NY Stock Exchange. The good Governor was a hands-on owner known far and wide as someone who, if nothing else, was his own best customer. According to one newspaper account of the day, “our Governor is the foremost drunkard of the colony” which was perhaps one reason he served for over a decade to great public acclaim.

Although partial to beer, Governor Van Twiller was also fond of other kinds of drink. One day, his friend CorneliusVan Voorst, received a cask of wine from the relatives in England. Van Twiller and two companions immediately set out in a rowboat for Van Voorst’s home on one of the islands in the Upper Bay. It didn’t take long for the thirsty visitors and gracious host to empty the cask, swearing oaths of eternal friendship with their final glass. As the Governor’s party left, an emotionally moved Van Voorst looked about for a fitting way to show his devotion to his departing comrades. Then suddenly true inspiration struck. He would fire a salute from the large cannon that guarded his island dock. He quickly loaded the artillery and a thunderous blast shattered the quiet of the Bay. But, as Van Voorst waved proudly to his friends, wadding from the gun dropped on his house. In minutes it was nothing more than a simmering pile of embers. The fire was duly reported in the newspaper as one of “sad consequence from unavoidable circumstance.” Left unsaid was the moral lesson of the event – forget the wine and stick with beer.

As generation succeeded generation in New York, the number of breweries multiplied. But two New York brewers stood out among the rest in the city and indeed, from the rest in the young nation. They were George Ehret and Jake Ruppert."

One of Ruppert's flagship beer brands was Knickerbocker.

Per Wikipedia:

"The New York Knickerbockers were an amateur social and athletic club organized on Manhattan's (Lower) East Side in 1842, largely to play "base ball" according to written rules; on June 19, 1846 the New York Knickerbockers played the first game of "base ball" organized under those rules, in Hoboken, New Jersey, and were trounced 23 - 1.

The New York Knicks' corporate name is the "New York Knickerbockers."

The Knickerbocker name had its first use in the world of sports in 1845, when Alexander Cartwright's Manhattan-based baseball team -- the first organized team in baseball history -- was named the "New York Knickerbockers" or the "Knickerbocker Nine." The Knickerbocker name stayed with the team even after it moved its base of operations to Elysian Fields at Hoboken, N.J. in 1846. (The baseball link may have prompted Casey Stengel to joyously exclaim, "It's great to be back as the manager of the Knickerbockers!" when he was named pilot of the newborn Mets in 1961.)

Thus, the Knickerbocker name was an integral part of the New York scene when the Basketball Association of America granted a charter franchise to the city in the summer of 1946. As can best be determined, the final decision to call the team the "Knickerbockers" was made by the club's founder, Ned Irish. The team is now generally referred to as the Knicks."

Pat H: I just saw your wonderful Rembrandt link which you posted while I was working on mine. Wonderful!

Nice segue from Rembrandt religious portraits to Knickerbocker beer! Sorry!

Hi Re Belguim it speaks half Flemings soort of old Dutch and Franch

Re Motley,s book,s 3 volumes on the Dutch republic was very interesting did read it many years ago on loan from a friend it goes back to the time of Roman Empire

don,t know to much about Dutch in USA but believe New York was named New Amsterdam at the time also setlelt large parts of Massachusets

it is always intteresting to see and the effects of people coming to a place.

Hi Jerry - glad you got here.

Mary Z interesting but read very litle tho so no book thanks for link.

Jerry, welcome. Even if you don't have the book, you can read the posts and say anything you think of. Your Dutch background could help us.

Marni, thanks for the links to the replicas of the Half Moon. Did anyone notice the account of the trial of sailing the 1909 replica?

"The Half Moon returned from her voyage up the river and anchored at the Water Gate off 110th street, New York City, on Monday, October 11. On the same day the Dutch crew were relieved from duty and returned to the Utrecht, which sailed immediately for the West Indies. In the afternoon Capt. Satterlee obtained a tug from the Navy Yard and towed the Half Moon down to the Harbor, where she was tried under sail in a puffy southerly breeze, to test her on all points. It was found that she would sail to within about ten points of the wind. As the helm has only four points play to starboard or port, it was impossible to put her about with the helm, and she was put about in the manner in which ships of her period were handled; that is, the braces were slacked away and the lateen sail set and her stern swung off so that her head came around, when the lateen sail was triced up and the braces tautened. As she has very little keel and no center-board, she makes a great deal of leeway, and her best point of sailing is down the wind, where she can make about seven knots. Capt. Satterlee is of the opinion that she cannot make over four knots on the wind, and she probably sails just as well as the original did."

I don't know anything about ships of that time, but she certinly seems like a slow, unwieldy tub. In 1800 you couldn't sail any closer to the wind than that, but you could do several knots faster, and you could certainly put a ship about more easily. (For reference, a knot is a nautical mile per hour, about 1.1 miles per hour, so imagine crossing the Atlantic at 8 mph.)

I notice that although Hudson's crew was 15, they wanted a crew of 20 on the replicas.

Jerry: WELCOME! I'm just reading the sentence under your name. Are you posting from New Zealand? Can you tell us about your Dutch background?

Marni

Pat H: It does sound like a klunker. (Doesn't klunker sound like a Dutch word!

Lateen sail. Isn't that the same kind of sail they used on the Mediterranean galley ships? No centerboard. That's difficult. 4 knots. That's slow. Couldn't Jack Aubrey's little ship Surprise go 11 knots? hahaha. I think the USS Constitution could go at least 13 knots.

Thanks, Pat H. for the link to the Rembrandt pictures. Those faces are so moving.

No wonder they had an 80 years war. Can you imagine having a whole nation of people under an Inquisition edict? There was no other way out.

I am really enjoying the book. I had known there were early Dutch settlers in New York, but all the rest is news to me. The Dutch belief in tolerance and freedom of religion at that time in history and the effect it probably had on our country is going to be very interesting to follow in this story. I'm am looking forward to this discussion. I am not much of a poster, but I'll be here reading along with you.

Evelyn

Evelyn: WELCOME! We're so glad you're here. Just post when you feel like it. We'll be happy to hear from you. Wasn't that so unbelievably shocking about the Inquisition edict condemning 3 million people of the Netherlands to death!

Marni

HAPPY ST. PATRICK'S DAY!

Thanks Pat have seen you about but not Marni tho LOL.

Marni I am Dutch born and 19 years their Moved here NZ in 1955 One of my Brothers was here and needed help in a Factorie he had been here ever sins LOL

It is interesting to read about what thei did their most will have been Calvenist for sure

The Dutch imported and than exported mostly Spices of all types also Coffee and tea it has been and still is a trading nation mainly

Nice to see so many folks interested in early NYC. I call Manhattan my home town though I was born and raised in and around Hoboken. I was educated through graduate school in Manhattan and I worked there, in the city,for many years. My great grandfather owned and operated a furniture manufacturing plant on Varick Street in NYC in the 1820's. His parents and grandparents also lived and worked in NYC.His mother was a Van den Bogaerdt and her folks came to town in 1630 or so. We've been New Yorkers for a long time.However, I am sure Shorto as well as many of you will have much to tell me and I will be happy to share my experiences with you.

Justin interesting the name every farm had one in Holland GR.

JERRY2: WELCOME, WELCOME! I’m sure you can correct our ignorance and many mistakes about Holland. Many of us Yanks are just realizing how important Holland was in the early history of the US, and learning about it’s history for the first time.

We’ll see that the fact that the Dutch were primarily traders is very important in the history of their exploration of the US.

Your bio says you like old motorbikes. I’m sure you’ve seen the movie “The Worlds Fastest Indian” starring Anthony Hopkins as the Kiwi who set speed records with his customized Indian Scout motorcycle. I thought it was a great movie.

Are you in the New Zealand discussion? Sounds like they are planning a get-together on the 24th.

JUSTIN: great to see you here!!We can use your knowledge of New York. And since Rembrandt seems to be finding his way into this discussion, we can definitely use your knowledge of art.

In PatH's link to the exhibit of Rembrandt at the National Gallery (Post 292), you can click on the pictures spread across the top to see some text and a larger picture. The first picture on the (your) left and the next-to-last picture on the right are examples where he used Jewish models (presumably of his neighbors) to portray saints.

Justin - another New Jersey-ite! Born in Hoboken - doesn't get more Dutch than that! And Marni - the New York Knickerbockers baseball team had their start in Hoboken too! I love the Dutch uniform colors - of the New York Knicks' basketball team! I read that the Hoboken Knickerbockers team introduced the first baseball uniforms In 1849. They were blue and white - (wool!) before being changed to red, as you say, so they could be seen better - before changing to the orange and blue.

You asked if Orange is a province in the Netherlands - I followed Mippy's link - there's all sort of interesting information on Orange and the Roman Empite, I read with interest that Orange was a principality - and a town in the south of France, Jerry

"The title originally referred to the sovereign principality of Orange in the valley of Rhone in southern France, which was a property of the House of Orange (and from 1544 of the House of Orange-Nassau). Because Orange was a fief in the Holy Roman Empire, in its Kingdom of Burgundy, the title contained feudal rights and that sovereignty which German principalities came to enjoy. The last descendant of the original princes, René of Nassau, left the principality to his cousin William the Silent, who was not a descendant of the original Orange family."

"Orange - the princely dynasty that derived its name from the medieval principality of Orange, in old Provence in southern France. The dynasty was important in the history of The Netherlands and is that nation's royal family.
The counts of Orange became independent upon the disintegration of the feudal kingdom of Arles.

William the Silent - was also known as William of Orange. The colors of the flag of the Prince of Orange became the colors of the flag of the Dutch Republic -

Growing up in New Jersey, the emphasis in our history texts was always on our English forefathers, and yet the evidence is everywhere that it was founded by the Dutch! I see that now in so many of the town and street names - Frelinghuysen Ave., Stuyvesant Ave...Weehauken, Hoboken - East Orange, West Orange - South Orange - (home of Seton Hall University!)

You all Must be Irish, soaking up the beer this early in the day! I'll be back at a more reasonable hour - need to walk my Irish terrier!

I h ave always had a passion for Rembrandts faces and generally make notes wherever we go to see any in the museums. We also went to the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam and adored it.. Wow.. they are so good at display there. All of the major museums in Amsterdam are within a short walking distance and after our river cruise, we stayed at a hotel on the corner from them. What a glorious few days visiting each and every museum. The only place we never got into because of the constant lines was Anne Franks hiding place. Small and heavily visited. The Dutch are still a very very tolerant nation and have many quirks in their government to allow as much dissent as possible. I loved the description in the book about Hudson and the natural harbor and the wide wide river ahead. Sounds poetic and yet true. Some parts of the Hudson as you go upstate are truly glorious.. Tappan Zee bridge is a good example. One of my favorite places to look down..

Stephanie, my car broke down on the Tappan Zee bridge once.

That bridge is really busy, so it must have been exciting, but oh me, the view must have been wonderful. We actually drove out of our way back in Nyack to see if we could see the view from some street, but the answer seemed to be no..Maybe we just could not find the right street. I do love that view.

PAT, I saved that Rembrandt link so I could go back and enjoy those wonderful portraits at leisure. I look at them and marvel all over again at Rembrandts masterful talent. And after looking at all those portraits of prophets, saints, etc. from the Renaissance, all looking like local Italian/Europeans, it was so satisfying to see someone actually using models that resembled the originals.

I was stunned to read of the 'Holy Office' mandate ordering the death of millions of people. I tell myself that they probably expected most of the condemned to capitualate under this threat, but that does not make it any less horrible.

Shorto notes that "The Catholic tyranny of Spain...united them."(the Dutch) ... It gave them a 'Father of the Country' in Willem I, the Prince of Orange, and brought together the people of the diverse provinces in a common goal.

Like so many really bad decisions, the outcome was just the opposite of what Spain and the Vatican intended. I note we're going to see some more really bad decisions as we go along.

Babi

BaBi, imagine what it was like seeing all those portraits at once. I spent a whole morning looking at them.

On page 40, Shorto mentions Rembrandt's painting of Claes Peterszen, the physician who administered the oath of allegience to the prospective colonists. Here it is:

The Anatomy Lesson of Dr Tulp

Warning: since the central figure is a cadaver, it's a little gruesome.

re Dutch tolerance . . .askthem.

http://tinyurl.com/yqrnsf

Claire

at least five of those doctors have the same face. I guess he ran out of models.

Justin: WELCOME! Another native New Yorker! Yay! Do I have this right - Your great great grandmother was a Van den Bogaerdt? Descended from the family of the Van den Bogaerdt who wrote the famous journal? This is so cool!

Jerry: It's exciting to have a native Dutchman join our discussion. Where did you used to live in the Netherlands? Thanks for the info about what the Dutch mainly traded. This brings up something important:

The Dutch East India Company and The Dutch West India Company - What did they trade in? How important were they to the Netherlands?. (See Question #4 above.)

--------------------------------------------

JoanK and Jerry: I just found out recently that the original Indian Motorcycle Company was in Springfield, Massachusetts, (just 20 mintues from my Windsor) for many years. The company has since moved, but Springfield has an Indian Motorcycle Museum.

JoanP: Orange was a French property OWNED by the House of Orange. OK. Thanks! I missed that. Oh, I love seeing the orange branches on the flag! In New York there's even an Orange County and a Nassau Country. Do they have those in New Jersey, too?

Stephanie: The Hudson truly is a beautiful river. I love it at the Palisades, too, and also looking down on it from West Point.

Pat H: Oh, excellent! You found "The Anatomy Lesson of Dr Tulp" mentioned in our book - an enlargable one that shows the detail!

Claire: Thank you for the link to the very inspiring speech about democracy by Agnes van Ardenne.

HAPPY ST. PATRICK'S DAY!

Here is some background material, on the Swedish colony on the Delware and its leader, Peter Minuit:

Minuit

Ahoy, PatH ~ post #299: the braces were slacked away ... the lateen sail set and her stern swung off ...the lateen sail was triced up and the braces tautened ...

... sure made me recall Dr. Steven Maturin aboard Capt'n Aubrey's ships in the Patrick O'Brien novels,
who got such terms all tangled up.
All that nautical terminology is close to incomprehensible. But lovely to read!

Mippy, speaking of Henry Hudson's ship is now reminding me of his death. Wasn't that AWFUL!!! Being set adrift in a small boat WITH HIS YOUNG SON and a few others - in Hudson's Bay near winter with no provisions - left to die horribly by his mutinous crew.

Reminds me of our discussion of Captain Bligh's Mutiny on HMS Bounty and their dreadful trip to Batavia in the open boat.

Batavia in Indonesia was another Dutch colony.

Interesting info about Peter Minuit. He was from Cleves. I wonder if that was the same Cleves where King Henry VIII's wife, Anne of Cleves, came from?

Well, I'm off for our annual Irish corned beef and cabbage dinner at a friend's! They'll have delicious Irish soda bread. Yum.

From Columbia Encyclopedia:

Cleves, duchy of former state, W Germany, on both sides of the lower Rhine, bordering on the Netherlands. Cleves was the capital. A county from late Carolingian times, it acquired (late 14th cent.) the county of Mark, in Westphalia, and in 1417 was made a duchy.

In 1521, Duke John III of Cleves inherited through marriage the duchies of Jülich and Berg and the county of Ravensberg. His daughter, Anne of Cleves, was married in 1540 to Henry VIII of England.

Henry married Anne, whom he found homely, to form an alliance with her brother William, duke of Cleves, a leader of the Protestants of western Germany. The alliance, arranged by Thomas Cromwell, seemed necessary because it appeared that the major Roman Catholic powers, France and the Holy Roman Empire, intended to attack Protestant England. When that threat dissipated, the marriage became a political embarrassment and was annulled by an Anglican convocation in 1540.

Minuit, Peter , c.1580-1638, first director-general of New Netherland, born in Wesel (then the duchy of Cleves). Dutch colonial governor of New Netherland. In 1626 the Dutch West India Co. named him director general of the colony on Manhattan Island. According to legend, to legitimize Dutch occupation of the island he persuaded the Wappinger to sell it for trade goods worth about 60 guilders ($24). At the island's southern tip he founded New Amsterdam. He was recalled to Holland (1631) and dismissed. He later entered into negotiations with the Swedes and headed (1638) the group sent out to found New Sweden, where he again purchased land from the Indians and built Fort Christina (later Wilmington, Del.) He was lost in a hurricane in the West Indies.

According to my inflation calculator which will only go back to 1800 - $24 in 1800 is the same as $274.37 today... Given the enormous continent of vacant land it was probably a good trade at the time - if we look at the capitol assets that others have added to that investment then the $24 looks like an unholy bargain.

Thanks for the welcome Joan P and Joan K. I was born in Weehauken, raised in Hoboken, and educated in Manhattan. Yes, my great, great grandmother was a Van den Bogaert and a descendant of Harmon Meynderdtz Van den Bogaert.Small World, isn't it? She was born in either Wappingers Falls or Fishkill. I forget which.

CLAIRE: how funny that all the doctors look alike in The Anatomy of Dr. Tulp. It must be R's painting. They were not models but actual colleagues of Dr. Tulp who were painted with him. Even the corpse is a real person, whose name R's biographer (Schama) tells us (a criminal who had been sentenced to death). And R manages to make him real to us.

Tulp means tulip in Dutch. He was called Dr. Tulp for the tulip motif on his house (the house of the tulip) and his carriage. I haven't been able to find out what part, if any, he played in the tulip mania we talked about earlier. He enters our story only because he administered the oaths to the first settlers leaving for America.

Allo, bonjour from Montreal, how nice to read about New York, I have been there unfortunately only three times but I intend to go back very soon. The last time I was there I took my two grandkids to Central Park and they played on the large stones where they got soaking wet, it was a very hot sunny day. I loved the Frick Museum, the Metropolitain, walking past Lincoln Center on 5th Avenue at night.

What strikes me when looking at "The Anatomy of Dr. Tulp" is the chiaroscuro - so that when you squint up to see the light and dark values the light on the body and line of faces along with the two heads, one above the other, and their white ruffs create a crucifix - although the collar on Dr. Tulp is white in actuality it is not painted white and blends into the dark without standing out so that it is not part of this crucifix. Seeing that gave me the message living or dead we are part of the crucifixion which during this time in history would be a more central theme in art and literature -

With that central theme still holding sway in Europe I do not know of examples where the Christian religion was central to the average Dutch colonist and reflected in early American art or literature of any colonist, Dutch or English. Yes, we have the puritans but what art or literature did they leave that used Christian symbolism at every turn.

According to the book I'm reading, The Coffee Trader the Jews found safe refuge in Amsterdam. Also they spoke at length about the East India Trade Company and the way it liked to hoard its supplies, such as whale oil and sugar. The agents wore their affiliation like a uniform and the men actually halted their conversations to watch them trade/bargain. It says when the agents were present, prices and goods rose. Purchasing slowed down and prices fell when they were not there.

No wonder the Company looked for greener pastures. Europe was flooded with traders. Nothing like a new world to introduce trade in.

Holy Hannah - OK here we go - would you believe - This Calvinistic document served as a model for the U.S. Declaration of Independence. In his Autobiography, Jefferson indicated that the "Dutch Revolution" gave evidence and confidence to the Second Continental Congress that the American Revolution could likewise commence and succeed.

Recent scholarship has has suggested that Jefferson may have consciously drawn on this document. John Adams said that the Dutch charters had "been particularly studied, admired, and imitated in every State" in America, and he stated that "the analogy between the means by which the two republics [Holland and U.S.A.] arrived at independency... will infallibly draw them together."
Was the Declaration of Independence inspired by the Dutch Declaration of Independence, 1581

Modern History Sourcebook: The Dutch Declaration of Independence, 1581

Add to the Dutch influence Ben Franklin lauding the Iroquois for their, Constitution of the Iroquois Nations which was a model for a federal system of government for several Native American nations and a model for Franklin to bring to the writing of our Constitution. And the question now is - how much influence did the Dutch have on the Iroquois Constitution - here is a long link to the commerce and inter-connection between the Dutch, French, Mohawk and Iroquois in The Role of the Dutch in the Iroquois Wars

Whoops my friend just called and she wants to share a cup of coffee before bed - her husband is dying as we speak - need to run...

Oh dear: Just found time to check in the "island" discussion and found a link sent to me for Tennessee discussions. When I followed it, I found it had been deleted! Can someone help me finds it again, Please? I certainly have to get into the habit of checking here frequently now that the discussion has actually started.

Diana in Shelbyville, TN

Here you go Diana

Tennessee

DIANA: here it is.

TENNESSEE DISCUSSION

Sorry, DIANA, I if you already know the below, but there are a number of new members here, and the following might be useful:

There are Geographic discussions on Seniornet for almost any place any of you might be from. Here is a link to them: places outside the US are at the top, followed by States of the US.

GEOGRAPHIC COMMUNITIES

There are also a whole host of other discussions, one on any health problem you might have, one on any interest you might have. To check them out, hit "Discussions" at the top of the page.

Once you find a discussion you like, don't bookmark the discussion, or you will go back to the same point every time and have to page through all the old messages. Bookmark the page ("folder") it came from (like GEOGRAPHIC COMMUNITIES above). When you go from there into the discussion, the system will take you to the last post you read.

Brian in the Rembrandt discussion posted a nice picture of the Rembrandt house (museum)

REMBRANDT'S HOUSE(S)

The Dutch purchase might be an 'unholy bargain', if it were indeed an outright purchase. As Shorto explains, tho', and Von Donck confirms, the 'purchase' price was considered by the Indians to be an offering, to close an agreement. And the agreement was to permit the Dutch to settle and share the land, while providing allies against enemies. The alliance for defense was, to the Indians, the more important aspect of the agreement.

Shorto points out the problems that have arisen from the stereotypes that arose about Indians among Europeans and their descendents (us). They were either primitive savages, not much higher than beasts, or 'noble' savages. Neither image was realistic.

Off the subject, but on reading the Wickipedia article on Minuit I saw links primarily in blue, but with some in red. I could find nothing to explain the different colors. Does anyone know?

Babi

Another area heavily influenced by the Dutch was South Africa.. The Boers.. were mostly Dutch and German..I did a little research there since the shipwreck discussed in the book had survivors and some of them went to South Africa after the trials.. I was tracing some of my paternal line and looking for where exactly they had come from. Never found an exact place, but South Africa did have interesting beginnings.

the red links could mean that you have visited them before. ,. .

and in South Africa the dutch were violently opposed to ending apartheid. . .their language was one of the factors that kept them from blending in with the English who were less so. It made for a very militant group.

I got stuck in a series of Wilbur Smith historical novels. He grew up there and politics is at the heart of most of his books.

claire

Our Irish dinner last night was fun as always - plain food, but delicious. Wow, so many excellent posts I'm catching up on!

Eloise: WELCOME! Good to have you with us. I hope you have your opportunity to visit New York again soon.

Barbara: Thanks for the Cleves info. Holy Hannah, (I love this expression) but you found some fascinating info about the sources for our Declaration of Independence! I have heard of various sources Jefferson used, but had not read about the Dutch Pattaak.

I'm going to have to look more carefully at Rembrandt's Anatomy to look at the crucifix. I did not notice it before.

Justin - Born in Weehauken....Wasn't this the famous dueling site in New Jersey where New Yorkers had to go to duel because it was illegal in New York? The place where the Hamilton/Burr duel was fought? I didn't realize until this discussion that it was a Dutch name. Have you seen the site where the dueling took place?

Alf: I'm glad you brought up some of the trading practices of the Dutch East Indies Company. What a powerful organization! What an impact on the Dutch - the world - economy and on the Dutch government at that time. It must have practically BEEN the government, would you think? The powerful merchants must have been like puppetmasters.

I found it fascinating to read in Mippy's link how the Dutch were not able to produce enough food for themselves and, therefore, had to trade for it. They eventually traveled the world seeking goods to trade, such as exotic spices and woods in the East and establishing posts in Indonesia, charting the world as they went. This trade was dominated by their Dutch East India Company.

Stephanie and winsum mentioned Dutch settlements in South Africa. We learned also that the Dutch became wheeler/dealers in the African slave trade, as well.

What was the difference between the Dutch East India Company and the Dutch West India Company?

BaBi: You brought up such a critical point about the relationship between the European settlers and the Indians - when the Indians sold their land, they were selling a permit to share the land, while forming an alliance against enemies.

Did the Dutch understand the Indians' perspective of the land deals?

Marni, from what I understand the Dutch East and West Companies had different geographical locations as their interest. The Dutch East Company concerned themselves with the East, Asia. The Dutch West Company focused on West Africa, the Caribbean islands and North America.

I'm not sure I buy Russell Shorto's explanation of how the Indians viewed land deals, especially the sale of Manhattan Island. Does he base his conclusions on solid research - or his own logic? He writes:

"The early 17th century was a time when Indians and Europeans were something like equal participants, dealing with one another as allies, competitors, partners.

But if the Indians were so smart and in a strong position, why would they sell their land, the most precious thing they owned?" He writes that the Indians had a different idea of land ownership than did the Europeans. "The Indians of the Northeast saw a real estate deal as a combination of a rental agreement...a treaty or alliance between two groups."

"The Indians who "sold" Manhattan fully intended to continue to use the land - and they did - for years after the sale."

Does it come down to the definition of what "sell" means? If the Indians thought that selling meant a trade of goods for use of land, can one say they understood the agreement? Did Pete Minuit realize that the document meant much more than the Indians understood? Did he swindle the Indians?

Henry Hudson: "a man of ambition, intellect, arrogance and drive....Like our own, his was an era of expanding horizons and a rapidly shrinking world."

The Muscovy Company, one of the companies that helped England's rise to global power, funded voyages of exploration and had funded two of Hudson's previous voyages. England dreamed of many things at this time - after all, they had defeated the Spanish Armada and what a feat! The company dreamed of a voyage that would lead to the riches of Asia and Hudson was their man.

However, reminiscent of today's corporate takeovers, the Muscovy Company was folded into the Amsterdam Chamber of the East India Company which was desirous of hiring Hudson and off he went deserting England in search of adventure and the sea.

What a lot of history is tied up in this chapter; Spanish, English, Dutch, French, Catholics, Jewish - we could talk endlessly about this chapter couldn't we?

But Hudson on this journey sailed into New York Harbor, along the coast of Staten Island amid the abundance of fish and fowl and forests. Must have looked heavenly, even peaceful Indians bearing gifts.

The Pollinator? And why that title for this chapter?

The chapter has a terrible ending; regardless of how cruel a man Hudson might have been as a captain he did not deserve what the crew did to him.

He isn't entirely forgotten. There is Hudson Bay, the Hudson River........... what else?

Henry Hudson is not forgotten, just put his name in Google!

In skimming Chapter 2 if find this sentence:

"He (Hudson) was destined to serve as a pollinator, to bring the spores of a culture not his own to new soil"

MARNIE, you asked the difference between the two trading companies - the East India Company was strictly for profit; whereas the West India Company was not only to trade but to "make war." Their ships were to be equipped with guns to carry out raids on Spanish ships as the Dutch Republic was again at war with Spain.

Out of curiosity I googled Catalina Trico's name and many sites came up including this one in the Dutch language:

Catalina Trico

Some time back we read with Harold The Ambiguous Iroquois Empire: I vaguely remembered not giving much attention to the chapter on the Iron Dutch Chain since I too had been programed to believe the Dutch were not that important in our history.

I reviewed the chapter which discusses the settlements in America from the Indian point of view - The chapter addresses - Dutch trade, war, Mohawk Alliance.

"After Henry Hudson's voyage of discovery for the Dutch East India Company in 1609, independent Dutch merchants began to trade on the Hudson River and along the Atlantic coast, and a Dutch trading company built Fort Nassau, ca. 1614, on Castle Island (near Albany) as a year round trading post. Thus, five or six years before the founding of New Plymouth, Dutchmen had take advantage of the Hudson's deep stream to build a habitation over 160 crowflight miles west of Plymouth Bay.

At Fort Nassau, the Dutch were surrounded by some 1,600 warriors and families of the Mahican tribe (Algonquian), whose friendship with other Algonquian tribes along the Mahican Channel gave them control over access to the fur trading that had already become institutionalized in the St. Lawrence Valley. The Dutch immediately resolved to make the norther passage into a conduit for delivery of peltry to themselves. Since the Mahicans controlled the way, the Dutch naturally turned to them for cooperation. The Mahicans refused at first to sell land to the Dutch, but they permitted the traders to live among themselves as valued guests, and, about 1618, they entered into an agreement with whatever traders were then on the scene. The Indians regarded it as a treaty of friendship, or nonaggression. In their metaphor, they tied the Dutch ships to their shores "with a rope."

... The Dutch traders of the early era represented nobody but themselves, and they were a semi-piratical lot of rough and tough individuals who certainly did not regard themselves as bound by their competitors' agreements - or, as often as not, by their own. The documented 1618 agreement would probably have been negotiated by a representative of the Van Tweenhuysen company, which quickly passed out of existence. Until the formation of the Dutch West India Company in 1621, no Dutch business organization was capable of maintaining continuity of policy.

... The Mohawks did not intend their defeat of the Mahicans to be simply a means of opening free trade. They destroyed Mahican controls in order to substitute their own- much to the detriment of the Dutch trade.

... the Dutch West India company chose their location carefully. After consulting the reports of coastal traders, they equipped their colonists with all necessities, they approached the natives diplomatically, and they financed the project amply. Their intention was to create a base for profitable trade on a large scale, for which they and resources and organization superior to those of any other European country. Dutch bottoms carried three-quarters of Europe's trade within Europe. Dutch and Flemish industries produced the sort of goods that Indians most desired. ("Duffels" cloth, for instance, was made in Antwerp's suburb of that name.)... In 1624 the Dutch West India Company establishes it colony of New Amsterdam without suffering a "starving time" or an Indian war.

... Brutality seems to have been fairly common. As late as 1660, Mohawk chiefs asked the magistrates at Fort Orange "to forbid the Dutch to molest the Indians as heretofore by kicking, beating, and assaulting them, in order that we may not break the old friendship which we have enjoyed for more than thirty year."

Without writing more from the book in summery it talks about the treaties of 1613, 1614,1618 and 1643, 1645 - They all use the Covenant Chain to describe the relationships with the metaphor of the rope used by the Iroquois and Algonquian speakers which had been "strengthened by a chain of iron made suddenly splendid as a chain of silver, and even occasionally transformed to a chain of gold."

"Their alliance with the Dutch in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, affirm a progression of alliance with the Dutch from rope to iron chain."

This continues with the Dutch not wanting to assist the Iroquois who had aligned themselves with the French. The French were the long time enemy of the Dutch.

All to say that it appears from this book that the Native Indian's concept of land was not an exchange but a covenant where the Dutch were buying into the alliance that gave both the Dutch and the Indian future wealth.

I think it to be more a Lease agreement what I understand of Native view seems it is only for the live time of person or group

Ella thanks for that link to Dutch thingy very clear to me LOL.

Hats and Ella,: Thank you for the info about the Dutch India companies. I found it interesting that it was the East India Co. that Henry Hudson worked for and disobeyed when he did his own thing looking for the Far East by hunting westward for the Northwest Passage, thus "pollinating" the west.

Ella: I love the term Shorto uses - "pollinator" for Henry Hudson. To pollinate, I see a bee cross-fertilizing. Not only did he bring the "spores" of the Dutch to America; first he brought word of America to Europe - word in his report about its "many skins and peltries, martins, foxes, and many other commodities," "very good harbor for all windes," and "as fine a river as can be found...a mile broad."

I thought it interesting, too, that the West India Co. wasn't formed until 1621 when the treaty with Spain came to an end. As Barbara tells us, Dutch traders were there earlier than 1621; but it was not til then that they arrived with organization, wealth, and power backing them in the form of the powerful new trading company.

Interesting to read that one main reason for the creation of the West India Co. was to steal from the Spanish who were bringing their huge stashes of plundered wealth home from the Americas. The Dutch ships were privateers and manned for war.

I believe the West India Co. colonized into South America, too, around Brazil? Dutch Guiana?

JoanP, Barbara, & Jerry: Interesting perspectives on the Indians' view of land deals. It was interesting to read Shorto's examples of how, after certain lands were sold to the Dutch by the natives, the Indians stayed put, not leaving the area for the sole use of the "buyers." We'll see later on examples of Indians' expectations of aid from their Dutch allies.

Barbara: I have been hunting for pictures of Castle Island in the Hudson River where, as you mentioned, the Dutch built their first fort - Fort Nassau - in the area around what today is Albany. The island locale didn't work out and later the Dutch built Fort Orange on the mainland as a part of New Netherland.

Here is a brief article and maps that show how close Castle Island is to Albany.

http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/albany/na/castle.html

Castle Island was not the only time the Dutch settled on an island that didn't work out and from which they had to move. I thought it was fascinating to find out that they didn't select Manhattan Island when they first settled New Amsterdam. Instead, they first settled on Nut Island which is called Governors Island today. They used Manhattan for their animals to graze. It took Peter Minuit to discover the benefits of "the perfect island."

Have you heard about some exciting developments taking place on "Nut" (Governors) Island today?! For years, it was being used as a military base - I think a Coast Guard base. Several years ago, it was turned back over to the state of New York. In conjunction with the National Park service, a large portion of Governors Island is going to be turned into a "Williamsburg" type of National Park. It's to be a recreation of an old Dutch settlement!

And guess what it's going to be named? Tolerance Park Historic New Amsterdam.

http://www.tolerancepark.org/

http://tolerancepark.org/_wsn/page5.html

http://www.historicnewamsterdam.com/

And also there's the island in the Caribbean of Saint Martin/Saint Maarten - half French and half Dutch.

http://www.travel-images.com/saint-martin.html

Barbara: that sounds like a fascinating book. It's description of the Indian interpretation of the treaties sounds close to Shorto's: the treaty as an alliance.

A rope that became a chain of gold but later turned into a chain of iron. Wonderful metaphor.

MaryZ: what a beautiful island. I guess we can assume it was the Dutch West Indies company that established Dutch control over half of it.

The Maories down here see it that way more a temperal arangement of course Dutch and Inglish see it in a different light it being for ever LOL.

The spelling of the "Mahician" tribe of Indians interests me as in Ohio we have the Mohician River and a Mohician State Park. Must be the same tribe.

JERRY, happy to be of help. What is a Dutchman doing in New Zealand? And what is your temperature down there now, as we long for spring here in the State of Ohio (the midwest of the USA) in 30 degree Fahrenheit weather.

I find myself enjoying the rich descriptions of the new land; the fruits, trees, herbs, flowers, game and fish. The fields of strawberries brought back a lovely memory.

My ex-husband was from up-state New York, near the St. Lawrence. At the time I knew him, his family owned and operated a small motel that catered in season to hunters and fishermen. When we visited them, we could walk up through the fields behind the motel, toward the river. I was surprised and delighted, my first time there, to find tiny, ripe wild strawberries growing in the field. Not a great many; either too early in the season or the growth was no longer as prolific as when the early settlers came. But each small berry was melt-in-the-mouth perfection!

Babi

It looks like the Hudson River School, the first American defined group of artists was primarily English. but it offers views of the landscape at that time.

http://www.albanyinstitute.org/collections/Hudson/church.htm

Claire

Jerry: That's interesting to hear that the native people of New Zealand would have the same view of land "sales" as native people of America.

Ella: I was wondering about the spelling of "Mahican." I'm pretty sure this is the same tribe that we call today "Mohican." I read that some Mohicans (Mahicans) moved eventually to Stockbridge, Massachusetts, and later moved to Wisconsin. Many Eastern Indians were forced to move west to live as the Europeans took over. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mahicans in Ohio had originally been in the east.

I had been wondering for awhile if the Mahicans (Mohicans) were the same tribe as the Mohegans, but I read the Mohegans are a different tribe. Mohegans lived where I grew up - in New London, CT, along the Thames River. Today the tribe is thriving and becoming wealthy and have built the casino The Mohegan Sun along the Thames.

The James Fennimore Cooper book is "The Last of the Mohicans." He wrote about Indians in the Hudson/Mohawk territory, so I had thought it was the Mohicans he was writing about. But he includes the character Uncas, who was a famous Mohegan chief. Very confusing.

I think both the Mohicans and the Mohegans were Algonquins. The Mohawks were Iroquois. The Mohicans and Mohawks were enemies. (Here's where alliances came in handy.)

Babi: Those descriptions are wonderful. Upstate New York is about the most beautiful area I have ever seen. Imagine what the Dutch must have thought about the beautiful new country, coming from the lowlands of the Netherlands - which, I'm sure, must be beautiful in its own way, but a very different beauty.

winsum: Those Frederic Church landscapes are so beautiful. The Wadsworth Atheneum in Hartford, CT, and the New Britain Museum have wonderful collections of his work.

Marni:

The title is typical of royalty. It stands for his title as the Principality of Orange, a region in France. Southern France I believe.

Marni- The title originally referred to the sovereign principality of Orange in the valley of Rhone in southern France, which was a property of the House of Orange (and from 1544 of the House of Orange-Nassau). Because Orange was a fief in the Holy Roman Empire, in its Kingdom of Burgundy, the title contained feudal rights and that sovereignty which German principalities came to enjoy. The last descendant of the original princes, René of Nassau, left the principality to his cousin William the Silent, who was not a descendant of the original Orange family.

The first college my dad attended was Hamilton College in New York. I found out that Hamilton College is named after Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton, along with a group of New Yorkers, helped to create the school for Native Americans after the Revolution. The Indians tribes had basically been descimated at that point and those remaining were poor.

Dartmouth College was originally created as a school for Native Americans, too. I don't know which school was established first, though.

nfash: Thanks for the info about House of Orange. I love the coat of arms that we saw in a post a bit earlier - it has oranges on it!

I find it very interesting how America was able to avoid nobility. We may have forms of aristocracy, but we have no nobility. It's actually written into our Constitution that titles of nobility are not allowed.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/usa/usnob.htm

MARNIE, you probably know from history that the public wanted to call George Washington YOUR EXCELLENCY - he would have none of it!

I remember from the JOHN ADAMS (McCullough) discussion that he went to Holland for a loan for the Revolutionary War and received one. He wanted a loan from France but he was not popular there at all - they fell in love with Benjamin Franklin though and I think he got a loan from the King.

We owe both France and Holland thanks for loans during our revolution.

Hurriedly - on my way to get my income taxes done.

That's right, Ella! Thanks for that!

Wasn't the Netherlands the first country to officially recognize the United States as an independent nation? I seem to remember that but can't find anything about it.

Ella this dutchman is doing nothing but talk to you folks LOL

The Netherlands where the power house of finans at the time and today has greatest investment after Japan in USA.

JERRY: that's interesting. I never thought of the Netherlands investing in the US.

Influences on the Constitution: when Adams was in Holland, he may well have become familiar with the Dutch constitution. He was not at the US Constitutional Convention (being still abroad), but he had written articles on the Constitution, and had written a state constitution for his state of Massachusetts. His biographer claims that the framers borrowed a lot from these writings. So Dutch constitutional ideas may have reached the US through him.

Some of you will remember, from the Founding Mothers discussion, that Adams' Massachusetts constitution accomplished what the US Constitution did't. Adams started it with the sentence "All men are born free". A slave, who later took the name Eleanor Freeman, found a lawyer to take her case and went to court, arguing that it was unconstitutional to hold her in slavery, since the Constitution said "All men are born free". She won, not only her own freedom, but a ruling that made Massachusetts the first state to abolish slavery (in the 1780's).

Joan it is in exess of 2000 billion dollars on the moment mostly supperanuation funds .

Did you know Philips of Spain was the worlds firht Bankrubt

Europe at this time- 1620,was in the midst of the Thirty Years War. The Counter Reformation and the Spanish Inquisition had been visited upon the Provinces of the Netherlands. The Pope lost Germany,The Netherlands,Scandinavia and Britain to Protestant forces in large part due to his brutal measures in the low countries.

In spite of these excesses, the Dutch, particularly those in Holland and specifically those Dutch in Amsterdam were fully engaged in business activity. It was, after all, also the Age of Enlightenment

When Phillip of Spain cut off Dutch trade with Lisbon, the merchants of Amsterdam were forced to seek other means of support. They followed the Portuguese to trading posts in the east. They dealt with the Arabs, Italians, Constantinopolins, and the Turks. They pushed to the east Indies and to India. They opened trade with Japan and Formosa and in 1623 the Dutch West India Company established trading posts at New Netherland and Brazil.

Ten years earlier they had sent an Englishman, Henry Hudson to explore the Hudson River in a search for a northwest pasage to China.The Colony of New Netherland comprised what we now know as Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, and Delaware.

Justin very interesting to read all that thank you for that.

Justin: In light of your words, I'm going to take this opportunity to remind everyone of items available in our Header above. Click on the map in the lower left corner and take the "Virtual Tour of New Netherland" if you have not had a chance to do so. Select from Albany, Connecticut, Delaware, Hudson, or Long Island regions. From there you can click on various areas within those regions and read brief histories that correspond to our reading.

Those of you from the New Jersey area might want to click on "Hudson" and then look at "Pavonia."

I live in Windsor and immediately clicked on "Connecticut" and then "Windsor." (Pretty exciting to see my town on the map!) Windsor is the oldest town in Connecticut.

--------------------------------------

Jerry: I worked for many years at an insurance company in Hartford, Connecticut. Hartford was known as "The Insurance Capital of the World" for many years. Aetna was one of the big companies and the home office was in Hartford. Well, the Dutch own a huge insurance company - ING - which bought a big chunk of Aetna - all of it, I believe, except for its health insurance business.

Marni it is interesting to see how many companies are world wide and the interconextion of them the Dutch Royal Fam own a large part of Shell and Exion oil and throu them other large companies.

JoanK: I am guessing, but I bet that is the same (John) Adams who defended the Armistad cargo. He generally, was a pain in the butt to Franklin in France and also to Jefferson but his understanding of the rights of man was inerrant.

If you click on the Hudson Virtual tour you will see on the map a place half way up the Hudson called Esopus. That is a point at which three rivers join, the Esopus, The Chichester, and the Hudson. The place is called Phonicia. Some of the best fly fishing in the world can be found in that confluence. I have often taken a limit even in the hottest days of summer.

JUSTIN: apparently, that was his son, John Quincy Adams:

AMISTAD STORY

But otherwise, you are right. Franklin felt John Adams was a pain in the neck in France, with no diplomatic skills, and undoing all that Franklin had done. Whether this is a fair assessment or not, I certainly don't know. But Adams did have a sense of human rights, and of how government should be structured. (His biographer credits him with the idea of an independent judiciary). His opposition to slavery may have been fueled by his wife, Abegail, who was vehemently opposed to it.

(In spite of this, it was Adams who pushed the shameful Alien and Sedition Act, which jailed anyone who criticized the government. His successor, Jefferson repealed it.

JoanK, thank you for recalling Eleanor Freeman. I have always thought it must have taken great courage for a slave to take their case before the courts especially a female slave. Did the Founding Fathers realize the words "All men are created equal" would have such power allowing people, even white women, to use the words to argue and justify their way out of all types of slavery?Did they have any idea that people like Dred Scott and Eleanor Freeman would take the words at their face value?

Dred Scott
Sojourner Truth
History of Women

Justin, thank you for mentioning the Amistad. This is another epic of history.

It does the heart good to read about the tolerance of the Dutch. This settlement is going to be entirely different from the other colonies. I am reminded of William Penn naming the city of Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love because of his Quaker heritage. Do we know yet much about the religious background of early Manhattan? Maybe I should have written New Amsterdam instead of Manhattan.

Shorto writes,

"The sails out in the harbor appeared more frequently, the skiffs ferrying in from anchored ships(there was no dock yet)bringing more faces, and more varied ones. Ebony faces from the central highlands of Angola. Arab faces creased from North African sandstorms. An Italian, a Pole, a Dane."

I just read the posts about the Amistad. I was interested because Connecticut was very important in the history of the Amistad case. A replica of the Amistad was built in Mystic in 1998 and participates in tall ship events around the world. I toured the schooner in New London. I was surprised to see that the ship first was brought to New London after it was captured. I had thought it was New Haven. I think the trial was in Hartford at the old State House. Here's an article and a picture of the old New London court house where the original Amistad was sold. You can click on the link to view the Hartford State House where the trial was held.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/travel/amistad/index.htm

Marni, thank you for the site.

Despite their republican sentiments, the Dutch apparently liked over the top titles. How awkward to have to address the board of the West India Company and the Lords of the States General as "Your High Mightinesses". How could one be addressed in such a way and keep a straight face? To me, the title demands that one strut, nose high.

Babi

BaBi: LOL! You're right. It seems like even in letters and reports to the company and government, they had to bow and scrape. Thank goodness we don't have to do that today!

Awhile back the question was raised about what was the religion in New Netherland? The word I'm seeing the most is Calvinism. My understanding is that this was a form of Protestantism named after John Calvin, a religious reformer. Let me check Wikipedia......

John Calvin, a French exile in Geneva, wrote "Institutes of the Christian Religion" in 1534 during the Protestant Reformation and apparently this spread word of his ideas and a group of his believers arose. The English Puritans and many Dutch were Calvinists. They believed in the doctrines of predestination and total depravity. "The central issue in Calvinist theology that is often used to represent the whole is the system's particular....doctrine of salvation, which emphasizes that man is incapable of adding anything from himself to obtain salvation and that God alone is the initiator at every stage of salvation, including the formation of faith and every decision to follow Christ."

Here's more about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

Of course, we've been talking about the religious tolerance that was a part of the Dutch heritance.

This brings up Question #10 above: "10. Shorto describes New Netherland as a “Babel of peoples.” What made it a Babel and how did this make New Netherland different from other settlements in 17th century North America?"

Anyone want to comment on this? What does Shorto mean by "Babel"?

Oh, another thing I just thought of. The Dutch religion in America was called, I believe, the Dutch Reformed Church.

Was the English Puritanism what became Congregationalism?

An analysis of predestination reveals that one's role in life is determined by God and cannot be changed. In other words, the rich deserve their bounty because it is from God.

I remember being taught about MANIFEST DESTINY as the prevailing thought re the united states in the tenth grade. I resisted because it proclaimed that the USA was created and maintained by GOD and I didn't believe in God at fifteen . . .and still don't. It's pretty much the same thing isn't it. predestined.

Did god give us George Bush who says that after he prays for a while God tells him what to do. It could be our destiny.

claire

The question of religion in Nieuw Netherland is an interesting one. During the 75 years preceding the settlement the Netherlands had been subjected to the most abusive efforts by the Pope and the King of Spain to stamp out heresy and Protestantism. In 1530 the Dutch were Roman Catholic and by 1620 Dutch Reform had gained a strong hold.

Much of the leadership in the Dutch West India Company may well have been Dutch Reform for many of the early churches in the settlement were of the Dutch reform movement. However, it must be recognized that the focus of the company and its representative was on business enterprise and not on religion. The people who signed on for the first voyages were a mix of Europeans who also had been subjected to the abuses of the Counter Reformation. Their attitudes toward religion may well have been a blend of old and new, and uncommitted.

The Puritans on the other hand, brought their brand of religion to the new world and imposed their practices on all who lived among them. They established a theocracy in Massachusetts and may well have been the reason we today have clearly separated church and state.

Here is a link to babel, which is commonly used to imply that multiple languages are spoken. Scroll down to find that paragraph. Indeed, in New Amsterdam a great many different cultures mixed together.

Babel

This is a great contrast, for example, to the Massachusetts Colony, where the Puritans, at that time,
did not tolerate other religions.

Justin & Mippy pointed out the religious intolerance by the Puritans in America. Some of the people who came to New Netherland were fleeing from religious persecution in the Plymouth Colony or from the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

There were terrible religious civil wars in France, too, between Catholics and French Calvinists called the Huegenots. During the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in 1572, Catholics killed thousands of Huguenots in Paris. Similar massacres took place in other towns in the weeks following. The deaths from the massacres have been estimated as high as 110,000. The Huegenots were not allowed into New France (Canada today.) So they fled to New Netherland where they were welcomed. The first Huegenots emigrated there in 1624.

Mrs. Sherlock: I recall that one of the things pre-ordained by God to Calvinists was whether or not one went to heaven or to hell. No matter what good deeds you did in your lifetime, it didn't make any difference. You were born to either go to heaven or hell. Yet I guess people believed that certain things manifested that God had chosen them to be one of "the elect" and be chosen for heaven.

I remember thinking what a cruel religion. God seemed so harsh. Remember the Jonathan Edwards image in his sermon "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"? That people were like spiders dangling over the eternal fires of hell?

I recently read a biography of Henry Ward Beecher, whose father was a Calvinist minister who preached damnation and hellfire. Henry Ward, who became one of the most famous ministers in American history, never liked the concept and eventually preached about a kind, gentle, loving God.

Claire: Was "manifest destiny" a Calvinist concept?

Mippy: Thanks for the link on Babel. I have to go check it out.

I found out something really startling recently when I read a history of my town of Windsor, CT. It had been been founded by people from the Plymouth Colony. The Congregational Church (eventually called the First Church) was the only accepted church in Windsor for many many years. Town taxpayers, by town law, had to pay taxes to support the Congregational Church until the state law made this illegal in 1821!

I couldn't believe it! The Constitution documents separation between church and state. So what was the taxation thing all about? Yet that was the law. I believe that CT was the next to last state in the U.S. to pass a law against forcing people to pay taxes to support a specific church. I believe MA was the last state in the U.S. to pass this type of law.

BABI: “To me, the title demands that one strut, nose high”. I agree. In my family, when someone acts pompous, we say that they are “trying to get the upper nose”.

Funny, Babi! I would laugh too at addressing anyone in that manner, but we Americans are a strange bunch.

We probably should recognize King James I of England who oversaw the creation of the King James Bible. He was known as "the wisest fool of Christendom." For more info:

James I A rather interesting fellow I think.

Do you suppose the English can remember all these kings and queens and their history?

Ella: If they can't remember their monarchs, they can get a little bit of help from a site I have used for years:

http://www.britannia.com/history/h6f.html

manifest destiny

we were taught that the westward movement had it's roots i it. that the united states was destined to contain all the lands it explored .

my devils advocate mind did overtime with these notions. Claire

Claire: Minds on OT are good things! I think you're on to something!

Tomorrow (Wednesday) is the last day of Week 1. Before we move on Thursday, anyone want to comment on any questions above? How about Question #7:

“In one swift bloody assault, a band of ambushing Mohawks put an end to the Dutch-Mahican alliance and, by the way, altered the history of the world”. (Shorto p. 47). In what way? How do you see the Dutch colonization developing differently if they had not made this alliance?

At this stage in the discussion it is difficult to grasp the effects of the Crieckenbeek alliance with the Mahigans and the subsequent attack and roasting of a Dutchman for dinner by the Mohawks. Let me speculate.

The Mohawks are dominant in the Fort Orange area. They are now enemies of the Dutch and that makes trading skins difficult. However, the outpost remains, is not abandoned, and even extends itslf to an outpost at Schenectady to be closer to the Indians.

News of the event at Nut Island on the North River (Hudson)strengthens the position of the settlers against Verlunt who has damaged relations with the Indians in his area. Pierre Minuit replaces Verlunt and moves the colony to Manhattan, and a more defensible position.

Did the chaos of the moment produce a leader? Perhaps, it did and that is the significant result of the attack by the Mohawks that Shorto has in mind. Perhaps it is the move from Nut Island to Manhattan Island but that move might well have occurred without Minuit. Perhaps, it is the purchase of Manhattan Shorto has in mind.

HATS: YES, Eleanor Freeman must have been quite a woman. Here is more detail about the case. Click on "The Mum Bett case" (That was Eleanor Freeman's slave name).

Eleanor Freeman (Mum Bett)

It says she got the idea when she overheard dinner table conversations about the constitution. When her mistress burned her with a poker, she ran away, and found a lawyer to take the case It was unique in that, instead of accusing her master of a crime, she attacked the constitutionality of the slavery system. Very little is known about her later life, but apparently she spent it as a servant in the lawyer's household. Her tombstone reads "She was born a slave and remained a slave for nearly thirty years. She could neither read nor write, yet in her own sphere she had no superior or equal."

ELLA: James seems very interesting – I don’t know too much about him. I saw another account that described him as boorish and crude.

Yes, I think the British know at least the names of their kings and queens. So do I. When I was in school, we had to memorize a “poem” which gave them all. On a good day, I can still recite it. It starts with William the Conqueror, and starts off like this:

“Willie, Willie, Harry, Ste,

Harry, Dick, John, Harry three.”

i.e. William I, William II, Henry I, Stephen

Henry II, Richard I, John, Henry III. And so on.

Our James I appears as "James the vain".

Oops, Marni! Checked your link, and it has the poem if you scroll down. I learned the short version. Except (now I really feel old) mine didn't have Elizabeth II in it. It ended with "And George VI brings us up to date".

JUSTIN: I assumed Shorto was talking about the move to Manhattan. As you say, it probably would have happened anyway.

MARNI, I hear all the time about the Constitution dictating separation of church and state, but you know, I can't find it. I read and re-read the Constitution and simply do not find any such statement. There is the amendment which states that Congress shall 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion', which is simply saying Congress cannot mandate an official 'state' religion.

I did a search for that phrase about 'separation of Church and State'. I found it in a speech by U. S. Grant, on the subject of public education. It was his opinion that the government should not have to pay for education. It had been the churches that established universities, with parents paying tuition. Thus the phrase about 'separation of church and state'. Obviously, his views in the matter did not prevail.

Q. 8 I think Shorto's writing style does add interest to the narrative. Even people who ordinarily find reading history dull would find this story interesting, precisely because of the dramatic and intriguing way the material is presented. Even the chapter titles are such as to rouse interest. I mean, who could resist reading something entitled, "The King, the Surgeon, the Turk and the Whore"?

Babi

Babi I believe it is the interpretation by the Supreme Court to the First Amendment that is the strongest proponent for separation - and then there were early speeches by either Jefferson or Hamilton that voiced the concept of religious tolerance that was practiced within various states - in order for religious tolerance to hold sway there could not be one state religion.

The First Amendment reads:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Justin: Oh, gosh, that part about the Mohawks roasting that poor man was terrible. It reminded me of the scene in the Daniel Day-Lewis version of the movie "The Last of the Mohicans" when the British officer was to be burned alive by the Mohawks and Natty Bumpo shot him to put him out of his misery.

I found it interesting in our book to read about the decades long war the Mohicans and the Mohawks had been fighting with each other before the Europeans showed up. The tribes were very different from each other. The introduction of European trading goods added fuel to their fire. The Mohicans and the Dutch developed "a closeness" of "friendship or self-interest." This automatically would have made the Dutch enemies of the Mohawks, as Justin points out.

It seems that Daniel van Crieckenbeeck was a Dutchman who understood the meaning of a land deal to the Mohicans, for he felt obliged to offer them aid in their fight against the Mohawks in 1626. Now van Crieckenbeeck was totally ignoring "explicit orders forbidding interference in intertribal affairs" from the Dutch West India Company "with results that would redound to the present."

Was this a giant mistake? Should the Dutch have tried to mediate the Indian situation, per instructions to remain neutral, rather than to take sides? Did the Dutch ally themselves with the weaker tribe, a mistake that would impact the Dutch and the English for many decades, highlighted in the French and Indian War?

I had mixed feelings about van Crieckenbeeck's decision to aid the Mohicans. I admired his feelings of obligation to the Mohicans. On the other hand, look at the immediate and ultimate results.

-----------------------------------------

Meanwhile, this all reflected back on the colony director, Willem Verhulst, as Justin mentions.

What did you think when you read that a "newly formed council of settlers" met, put Verhulst on trial, and voted to banish him and his wife from the province!?! The colonists voted Peter Minuit in as new commander. It does seem that Justin is correct when he states the chaos of the moment produces a leader. Wow, a man in the right place at the right time?

And democracy in action!!!!

BaBi & Barbara: That wording in the First Amendment is specifically regarding Congress' actions, as you point out. It didn't impact the states' rights regarding religion. So, I guess that's why CT and MA could continue to force people to support the Congregational Church even though they did not practice that religion.

The wording in the amendment seems extremely critical when you think of actions that governments took elsewhere - For instance, England passing a law that outlawed the Catholic religion (1691?)

JoanK: That poem! Hahaha!!! I love it! I can't believe you found it in that British Monarchs site! I've been referring to that for years and never even noticed it! I'm going to check it out this instant.

Joan didn't mention it, but when we learned the poem the last line was:

"And George VI brings us up to date."

I'm grateful we didn't have to learn the Saxon kings--too many Ethelreds, Ethelberts, Egberts, etc. I've always liked the idea of Ethelbert the Unready, though.

: Oh, gosh, that part about the Mohawks roasting that poor man was terrible.

Marni more poor Mohawks thei had to eat this Muddy Dutchman LOL.

Jerry: Eeeeek! You are too funny!

Well, Thursday we start a new week. Check the heading for the schedule and discussion questions. but if you have things you still want to say about the first week, feel free. We by no means exhausted the topics.

This week we'll be mainly in Manhattan, although events on the other side of the world still keep influencing our colonists. We'll get to know some of them better: some of you may meet your ancestors here. Some of them, you'll be glad to know, others less so. I always figure that, human nature being what it is, I have the same mixture of really great people and real stinkers in my ancestry as anyone else.

And we'll get a more textured picture of this new colony, as well as finding out more about the events and people in Europe that shaped it. I'm looking forward to it.

Just back from a few days away. This week.. I do have some small feelings about Shorto in some of this weeks reading. I would guess because I descend through the early dutch lines I have a different picture of the people. My experience in the early records is that so many of the people came for a new life.. Maybe not the kind of life we would like, but I do have sympathy for the freebooters and pirates and whores. Many of them became good citizens, married and had children. The dutch loved to sue one another and brought up each other for the darndest crimes. The office of schout was held by many people over the years. Most of them were at least trying to maintain the peace.. Not easy in those days. There were so many things that could be wrong and it depended politically on who was in charge. Also New Netherlands did not impact Albany that much early on because they simply were not interested in what was happening in what they regarded as the city. Consider: a man named Sander Leendertse Glen..Dutch..sounds like.. no this man was really Alexander Lindsey Glen.. He was a scot.. married to another scot.. Cathryn Duncassen.. Catherine was the sister of Margaret ( wife of William Teller), Maria ( wife of Peter Loockerman) and Jannetje ( wife of T. Powell Rocharet). Alexander sailes as a free colonist in 1639, signed paperss in Marcy of that year and was a ships captain for Renssalaer for three years. Tapped berr 1644-46 and then had a farm.. He was considered a very good colonists and has many many descendents.. Not even the tiniest bit dutch and probably did not speak Dutch.. I guess my point is that Shorto seems to be putting all of his apples on the political arguments in New Netherlands and there was a good deal more to the colony than that.

STEPHANIE: yes, Shorto's view is necessarily one-sided. He is using court records in this section, so gets all of the high jinks. Those who minded their business and stayed home left no record. This must lead to an overemphasis on misdoings.

In general, his views seem a little more simplistic to me than the variety of human behavior would warrant.

Q. 12: Adriaen van der Donck comes across as a little larger than life, but vivid and stirring. Better educated, I would think, than the typical young Dutchman, and certainly educated in one of the most exciting times, intellectually, that the Netherlands had yet seen.

Van Rensselaer was 'old school' with a vengeance! He wanted to run his estate as a fiefdom, a law unto himself, with everyone within it bound to himself. Van Donck's training at the Univ. of Leiden, with it's influences from Galileo, Newton, and DesCartes, taught him to base actions on reason and good sense, rather than accepted 'authority'. His education in law and politics reflected the Dutch views on tolerance and peoples' right to choose as they thought best. This does not seem likely to mesh well with Rensselaer's intentions.

Speaking of 'larger than life', how about that troublesome rascal the 'Turk' center of strife and lawsuits! Was is Justin or Jerry that mentioned the Dutch predilection for lawsuits? I don't see that the Turk had any lasting effects on history, but he certainly is colorful.

Babi

Steph.. You make a good point about the freebooters and whores growing into respectable citizens and especially so in later generations. It is also reasonable to expect whores to retain a localized viewpoint. Freebooters on the other hand, by virtue of their predatory occupation may well have had extended interests reaching as far north as Fort Orange and beyond to Schenectady and even south and west to the land of the Delawares.

The connecting interest between Fort Orange and Nieuw Amsterdam was business based.They depended upon the flow of skins down river. Emisaries travelled from company headquarters at Nieuw Amsterdam to negotiate contracts with the Indians. Communication between the two was slow but essential for if one were attacked and in jeopady the other's position became precarious.

We will see as time advances how that plays out. One's impact upon the other was significant though not socially active. What Shorto brings us is the record of transactions which he links with artifacts to make a story.

Stephanie: It's so good to hear your perspective on the history since you have done so much research. You mention having sympathy for the freebooters and pirates and whores. New Amsterdam was a port town. I imagine port towns and cities around the world had their shares of freebooters, pirates, and whores. Just think of all the seaman who had been stuck aboard vessels for months on end, looking for a good time when they came ashore. It seems that where sailors went, so went the whores. Can you imagine how much venereal disease there was?

Recently I read a biography of Emma Hamilton, mistress of Lord Horation Nelson. Emma was a street whore in 18th-century London by the time she was 12. She was poor. Later she married Lord Hamilton, the British ambassador to Naples. A newspaper of the time reported in 1785 that every year 5,000 streetwalkers died in London. Maritime districts had the greatest concentrations of whores.

In 16th and 17th century Amsterdam, prostitutes were found where the sailors were. "In 1500 the area behind the "Dam" square was the official 'prostitution-zone'. Women who walked the streets outside this area were escorted with flute music and drum roll into the official zone."

"Brothels were not allowed, but some were actually run by the magistrates, 'in order to keep control'. In some public baths men and women could bath together, listening to music, drinking wine and afterwards they could retreat to a separate room. Prostitutes and customers found each other in the inns, musico's (theatres) and dance-establishments run by a Madame. In those days the customer not only came to the brothel for sex, but listing to music or playing cards or dice were an important part of the entertainment in these establishments. Even bars with topless waitresses were known in the 17th century, most of the time the barkeeper had an understanding with these women; during opening hours they would encourage the clients to drink and after closing-time they could take the customers along."

"At annual fairs the brothels had competition from large groups of prostitutes, who traveled from town to town. In 1611 one Willem Mouring offered 80 guilders to the magistrate of Wassenaar, if he was allowed to locate "his" group of Amsterdam girls near the horse fair. His request was denied, because the amount of 80 guilders was too poor for such a lucrative license !!"

http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/amst_prost.shtml

BaBi: Such an interesting comparison between van Rensselaer and van der Donck. "Old school." I love it! The patroon system was interesting. Does that word come from "patron" I wonder? To think, van Rensselaer never stepped foot on America. Simply gave orders from afar.

Here's a photo I took recently in Albany from the top of the observation tower near the state capitol. I was looking down at the Hudson River and the site (circled in yellow) where Fort Orange was built (on the west bank). That's Rensselaer County on the other (east) side of the Hudson. All land owned by van Rensselaer. He owned, I believe, 124 square miles of land around Fort Orange.

resized

Van der Donck's education reminded me of some of the American "Founding Fathers" - as Justin (I think Justin) mentioned earlier - the Age of Enlightment. How wonderful that those brilliant radical ideas had such an influence on the world.

Justin: Thank you for describing the business connection between Fort Orange and New Amsterdam. So interesting to envision the flow of beaver pelts coming in by the Indians from the Mohawk River Valley to the hub at Fort Orange on the Hudson, then down river to the port of New Amsterdam to be shipped out. Basically same flow of business as when the Erie Canal was built by 1825 when goods were shipped east from the midwest.

Beavers had been killed off in western Europe by this time. America offered a whole new terrain for exploitation. And, by gum, the beavers were nearly all killed off in America, too, from east to west. Weren't the numbers of beaver pelts shipped to Europe just staggering!! And some of the ships, of course, sank, as ships often did. Thousands of beaver pelts lost.

Do you know why beaver pelts were so popular?

Here's an article on how they were made into hats. Check out the expression "mad as a hatter."

http://www.whiteoak.org/learning/furhat.htm

Marnie, imagine using mercury to separate fur from felt which led to mental illness and perhaps the phrase "mad as a hatter."

For some reason this chapter on the King, Surgeon, Turk and Whore, while interesting as little stories on the side, did not impress me as history except perhaps to show that our author was dogged in doing research for the period. Prostitutes, whores, drunks, disorderly conduct, no governing body; all leading to the downfall and extinction of the Manhattan colony.

What is going on in Europe at the time is far more interesting - the 30 years war, the religious battles (continuing), the Kings and the Queens, Protestantism vs. Catholicism, the build-up of the British Empire, empires in the making, "events on one side of the globe generating reactions on the other."

I did enjoy the diary of Bogaert and his trading partners as it detailed their journey westward into territories and villages of the Indians in search of more trade. Wonder if bear grase really worked miracles on open wounds? Gee!

Perhaps I should/should not mention that my roaming daughter visited Amsterdam a couple of years ago and was astonished that prostitution is legal and that women openly display their wares in public. That is tolerance!

BABI: Yes, Adriaen van der Donck is an interesting character. The education that he received seems almost too good to be true for the times. I haven’t read ahead, but I’ll bet you’re right.

BABI and JUSTIN: “Steph.. You make a good point about the freebooters and whores growing into respectable citizens and especially so in later generations”. Of course. Remember that Australia was colonized by prisoners. Look at the contributions their descendants make to our society. I remember one Aussie Seniornetter who used to say that her forebear was a prisoner and her husband’s was a guard, and the prisoner’s family had done better than the guard’s.

In fact, when you consider the number of ancestors we have going back to Adam, there must be just about anyone you could think of in all our pasts.

It will be interesting to see how the relationship between Fort Orange and New Amsterdam develops. There must have been similar relationships in the earlier Russian fur trade.

ELLA: what’s going on in Europe is interesting. After just reading about James I. what do we think of his son, Charles I? I knew he had been beheaded, but never knew why. Let’s talk some more about that diary. I think it is extraordinary.

“Display their wares in public?” OoooKaayyy. Maybe I’m not as tolerant as I thought I was.

Shorto couldn’t resist bringing us the juicier tidbits from the court records. It certainly made for lively reading, but it leaves out a lot of things I would rather know about the colony.

One is: how the economy is going. I recently read a book about the Virginia colonies. They were literally hanging on the knife edge of extinction, hoping the next ship would come before their food ran out Shorto talks about ships going back and forth to Holland as if it’s a commuter line or a railroad, all these furs going back, and suddenly at the end of Part I says the colonists were starving. I can’t make head or tail of this.

The working girls in Amsterdam sit in store fronts and attract customers in a variety of interesting ways. Sharon Stone and Hustler Magazine have shown us some of the attractions.

The working girls in Amsterdam are a huge tourist attraction as well. It is on all the lists of things to see.. Van Der Donk was interesting, but I keep getting the feeling that he was like a wind vane.. back and forth with whoever was in charge.

The Rubens ceiling at Whitehall - there are many sites showing the gorgeous paintings:

Rubens

I posted these earlier (I thought!):

For JERRY IN NEW ZEALAND:

In your language

For the rest of us:

Glass Doors

RE: Rubens: Oh, my God!

Oh my, Ella - thank you! Charles I was certainly an art lover - even when money was tight, his subjects rebelling, he continued to build his art collection. I'm wondering if some of the extensive art collection at Windsor Castle belonging to the royal family doesn't contain some of these.

Charles had several reasons for despising the Dutch besides the allegations they were torturing the English in the New World...the Amboyna affair - I think I'm seeing the Amboys of New Jersey in the name...(I almost drowned in Perth Amboy when I was a kid - I'll never forget that place!)

The Dutch were revolting against the monarchy at home - to set up a repulic. Charles fears his English subjects will do the same.

And then of course, there's the matter of the Dutch controlling world trade on the seas - and Charles is strapped for money to fund expedition.

It was a brilliant move - Spain's sending Rubens (Spain? do I remember that right) as an emissary - to pursuade Charles to sign a treaty that would end England's hostilities with Spain. It worked apparently. The English and the Dutch had formed an alliance against Catholic Spain and now the English ended hostilities with Spain. hmmm England is now free to challenge the Dutch in the New World.

I keep watching for the reason the English were able to wrest New Amsterdam from the Dutch. Had been expecting a war, at least a squirmish. Further reading indicates that was not the case. War was not necessary. The Dutch turned their paradise into "chaos" and "slop"...

This makes me sad - it would have been a different story if this new colony founded on tolerance and acceptance - and hope would have prevailed, wouldn't it?

Surprising to see slavery already in the Dutch colony - slaves brought in from the Caribbean by pirates. ("Blauvelt" - does this translate as "Bluebeard?")

So, the prostitutes worked for beaver, not for money. I guess beaver pelts were worth much more than the money that would change hands from the clientele. "Mad as a hatter" - do you believe that expression came from the "madness" caused by treating the beaver pelts with mercury to separate the fur from the felt beneath. Who knew the felt was worth so much more than the beavers' fur?

Protitution, drinking, lawlessness...lack of leadership - When Peter Minuit came sailing into the harbor in 1638 under Sweden's flag - armed and ready to invade the decadent Dutch, it seems all but over, doesn't it? Wait a minute...these are Swedes. How do the English become involved. Need to keep reading...but will wait until next week. WIll go back to earlier chapters and read them again.

Gosh, as Ella & JoanP explained, our "perfect island" seems to be going to the dogs. But, don't despair. Perhaps someone will come to the rescue.

Stephanie: Interesting analogy of Adriaen van der Donck as a wind vane. He does seem to be very political and ambitious and seems to know what to say to ingratiate himself with powerful people. That could be an important attribute. It could also get him into trouble.

Ella: That Rubens ceiling! Oh, how magnificent.

It really is fascinating what is happenging in Europe at this time. And so much jockeying for position. Perhaps that's a reason why our book is entitled The Island at the Center of the World.

I read that the Indians used bear grease as a mosquito repellant, too.

JoanP: Charles I did know how to spend money, didn't he! Rubens painted many portraits of Charles I. He did a series of him on horseback. Here's Rubens' Equestrian Portrait of Charles I at The National Gallery in London.

Charles I

JoanP mentions that beaver pelts were used for money. How did the Indians and the colonists use wampum for money?

I read on the web that "blau" means "blue" in Dutch and "velt" means "open country." Jerry: HELP!!

This may be a bit off the discussion, but the whole New Netherland juicy court case business reminded me. In the new Smithsonian Magazine, there is a fascinating piece about research and a website where English court cases 1674 to 1834 have been digitized. For those who enjoy the David Liss novels (The Coffee Trader, A Conspiracy of Paper, etc.), you can actually read online the court procedings of Jonathan Wilde, the 18th century bounty hunter, who was finally hanged. To view "The Proceedings of the Old Bailey, London 1674 to 1834," click here: http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/

Also, in the new Smithsonian is an article about John Smith, Powatan, and the "lost" Algonquin village that was near Jamestown.

Here's another version of Charles I on horseback, this time by Anthony van Dyck, another Dutch painter of the period.

http://www.abcgallery.com/V/vandyck/vandyck24.html

Here's another van Dyck, a closeup of Charles I. Look at that gorgeous lace collar!

http://www.abcgallery.com/V/vandyck/vandyck40.html

Here's a van Dyck painting of Charles I's wife, Queen Henrietta. She was the youngest daughter of King Henri IV of France (Henry of Navarre.) Henrietta fled England to raise money for her husband's royalist cause. Guess where she went? Holland.

http://www.abcgallery.com/V/vandyck/vandyck27.html

“Buccaneers and whores” as ancestors. They can be an important link to the past. When we lived in Israel, we were friends with a Canadian couple who had emigrated there. One day , in conversation, he happened to remark that he was a cousin to a famous madam, Polly Adler, who had written a book “A House is not a Home”. We were also friends with an Israeli couple – one day she mentioned that her cousin was Polly Adler.

“Oh, you must be related to Jimmy”,I said.

“Who?” said Gila. I knew them in separate contexts. They didn’t know each other.

So I invited them all to dinner, and they compared notes. They were cousins. Just like the end of “Fiddler on the Roof”, when the Jews left Russia, some of the family had gone to America and some to Israel. Now, generations later, their descendants were living in the same small town, unaware of each other, except for this common ancestor. For Jimmy, especially, lonely in a new country, knowing he had relatives there was very important.

Oh, those portraits are magnificent! The colors!

Is it me or does it seem to the rest of you that his horse's heads are too small for the body of the horse?

4. Do you think the English colonial neighbors of New Netherland posed a threat? Where were they located?

I thought I'd take a crack at part of this one because I live in one of these English colonial neighboring locations - Windsor, CT, the oldest town in Connecticut. Darn right I think they posed a threat. The settlers would always be looking farther and farther for land. Eventually, the colonies would have to butt heads. And, of course, there were the intermittent wars being waged by the mother countries.

Windsor was settled in 1633 at the confluence of the Farmington and Connecticut (aka "Fresh") rivers, just north of the Dutch trading post Huys de Hoop - Fort Hope, or "the House of Hope" which eventually became Hartford. Windsor was settled by members of the Plymouth, Massachusetts colony after the Podunk Indians invited them to provide a mediating force between other tribes and granted them a plot of land. The settlers were Puritans and, of course, brought their religion with them.

The Indians called Windsor "Matianuck." We still have a Matianuck Avenue today. Reverend John Warham and 60 members of his church congregation arrived in 1635, and renamed the settlement Dorchester. The town name was changed once more to Windsor in 1637. Windsor stretched at one time all the way from Litchfield and Torrington in the west to Tolland across the Connecticut River in the east. Today, of course, it is much smaller, with 20 other towns having formed from what was originally Windsor.

Windsor's economy was dominated for many years by tobacco farming and brickmaking. The first tobacco crop was planted in 1640 with seeds brought to Connecticut from the Virginia tobacco plantations.

A number of the very early houses still remain. We are lucky. I took this picture for you of the "Fyler House" on Palisado Avenue in our historic district. It was built in 1640 and is supposed to be the oldest frame house remaining in Connecticut. The houses were surrounded by a palisade like New Amsterdam's "Wall," ergo the name of the street today.

Here's a picture of a marker indicating where a fort was built in Windsor in 1633. It's gone today.

I know Patwest will have to resize these photos. Thanks in advance, Pat!

JoanK: That is a wonderful story!

JOANP: yes, Rubens acted as envoy, occasionally almost spy for the King of Spain. He was Dutch, but from a part of the Netherlands that was controlled by Spain. He was Catholic, and followed an allegiance to Spain.

The book Rembrandt’s eyes, which a group of us have been reading for almost a year now, is really about Rembrandt and Rubens. the author uses them as foils for each other, Rembrandt in the Protestant area, Rubens in the Catholic. The book is especially interesting on how the differences affected their art.

the Amboyna affair: it’s especially shocking, after reading so much about tolerance among the Dutch to read about this notorious affair, where, in the East Indies, the Dutch captured and tortured a group of Englishmen. The rivalry between the English and Dutch over the East Indies was a long and brutal one. There were instances of both good behavior and brutality on both sides – both toward each other and toward the “natives” that they found there. I’ve forgotten the name of the book I read on the subject (I think I can get it this weekend) but I don’t recommend it, it’s too depressing. If I remember correctly, the author pointed out that there were just as bad brutalities committed by the English. But the Amboyna occurred in just the right time and place to become an impetus for stirring up hatred against the Dutch.

Marni; When I was young and agile fishing the shad runs in Windsor gave me much pleasure every year.

Shorto makes the point that the Dutch attitude toward their West Indies outposts was not to colonize or settle, but to establish ports and trading ceners for their commercial interests. Most of the Dutch West Indies possessions were exactly that, with possession enforced by military forces on-site. New Netherlands was the exception, as people kept coming in with the intention and expectation of settling. The governing board found their American outpost most troublesome and confusing, and apparently never did give it enough attention to manage it properly. So...eventually they lost it.

Babi

Justin! You fished for shad in Windsor!! Was it in the Farmington River? The shad still run through Windsor, up the Connecticut River and then up the Farmington. I don't think there are nearly as many shad, though. Do you know how to bone a shad? That's a skill I never learned. They are particularly bony. We still have the annual shad fishing derby and the festival.

I read that there used to be salmon running up the Connecticut River. They were fished out. Gone like the beaver. A non-profit group and some volunteers are working to bring back the salmon. It's very exciting.

The Amboyna affair was shocking and memory of it was used for political purposes. It reminds me of how other affairs were used to rile people up for war - "Remember the Alamo" - "Remember the Maine" etc. I was thinking about another Dutch East Indies incident - the Batavia mutiny. Did anyone ever read about that Dutch ship tragedy. Anyway, end result, mutineers were captured and hanged by the Dutch authorities; but before some were hanged, their hands were cut off. I guess I'm prone to think that torture was more common back then, but I really don't know if it was more acceptable.

BaBi: Your point about the purpose of the Dutch colonies is very important. I wonder if the French had the same attitude in New France?

JoanP brought up the Swedes that Peter Minuit brought over to settle along the Delaware - another colony that might pose a threat to the Dutch? I was so surprised to read about the Swedish colony in what is today the Philadelphia area. I had never even heard of it. When I visited Philadelphia last spring, we went to the Visitor's Center at Independence National Park. They had an exhibit up about the Swedish settlement. I am learning so much from this history!

The book about the East India spice trade is "Nathaniel's Nutmeg: Or the True and Incredible Adventures of the Spice Trader Who Changed the Course of History" by Giles Milton. It's a well written, interesting book, but very depressing.

To correct an earlier post of mine: I've now gotten to the place in Rembrandt's biography that discusses "The Jewish Bride" and it is not known to be a portrait of an actual couple: rather a retelling of the story of Rebecca and Isaac. Sorry.

I loved Shorto's description on Manhattan...a community of people from many nations, speaking different languages, dedicated to making money, and kind of raunchy and wild. The more things change, the more they stay the same, IMHO, that's what makes the city so vital.

I am learning so much from this history!

Me, too, MARNI. I read about Van Den Bogaert and Van Der Donck, and I'm so glad the stories of these people have been recovered. They are exciting and deserve to be remembered.

I'm wondering,..and pardon me if this has already been explained and I misses (or forgot) it. Can anyone tell me the distinction between Van Den and Van Der? (I have the same problem with the Hebrew 'bar' and 'ben'. Both seem to indicate 'son of'.)

Babi

Babi.. Van Den generally indicates where they came from.. just like Van... Shorto mentions this occasionally, but there is a great deal of interplay between New Netherlands and Brazil. A good number of the settlers went back and forth.

I haven't read beyond Chapter 5, so I don't know how he is going to turn out, but I was a little surprised that Van der Donck was so eager to go to the colonies. He had just gotten a law degree in a town that was a major center of intellectual ferment, and whether he knew the details, he knew that he would not find many educated men there. He came from a wealthy and influential family, so could have easily pursued a successful career at home.

I suppose he was out for adventure, or perhaps felt that Dutch life was too cut and dried.

The University of Leiden is an interesting institution:

University of Leiden

"The university has no central campus; its buildings are spread over the city."

I don't believe I have ever known a college in the USA that is similar but I think it's a good concept; it's rather like spreading the education to all the people. But tax exemption on alcohol that the faculty drink is carrying it a bit far!

Why would children playing in the streets be an "oddity at this time in Europe?" (pg.93) Where would they be playing?

It was the age of the individual, our author says, - "I think, therefore I am"

I AM, I AM, I AM.

I have never heard of Hugo Grotius the father of international law, but I could answer the question what Dutch jurist has a portrait in the U.S.House of Representatiaves.

And as if that wasn't enough we learn that the Dutch invented "coziness."

As many of you have said I am loving the history in this book.

Here's a link about Hugo Grotius, including a couple of portraits:

Grotius

Why wouldn't children play on the streets? Farther on Shorto says that people thought that in childhood "chaos and deviltry might sweep into the soul, and thus children should be checked, subdued, kept under sober adult submission." Maybe they were all indoors going over their catechism with their parents or sitting around, bored, trying to behave. It might also be that the Dutch streets were safer than some others.

BABI: isn’t Van Den Bogaert’s journal fascinating! JUSTIN: you should be proud to have him in your family.

You’ve sent me to my Hebrew dictionary for “ben” and “bar” (if I can find it – most of my books haven’t been unpacked yet). I know ben is Hebrew and I think Bar is Arabic, but you do see it in Jewish names. I’ll get back to you on that. /(incidently, the plural “sons of “ is bnai as in “bnai brith” sons of the covenant).

STEPHANIE: New Netherlands and Brazil? How interesting. Was there a Dutch settlement there?

Interesting that Shorto gives Descartes (the “I think, therefore I am” guy) such a prominent place in forming the ideas of the time. Descartes had a place in PatH and my lives. Our father wrote a book, in which he translated a hitherto untranslated mathematical paper of Descartes’ with commentary.

It drew us together at the end of my father’s life: I was his sounding board when he wanted to vent about Descartes’ bad Latin (all scholarly papers were written in Latin then, but brilliant Mathematicians aren’t necessarily brilliant Latin students) or other problems. The only copy of this paper which survived a shipwreck and several hundred years was a copy by another mathematician, Leibnitz (who invented the calculus) and unfortunately both Descartes and Leibnitz had terrible handwriting. Leibnitz couldn’t read Descartes' handwriting, and my father had a hard time reading Leibnitz’s. (A little different from the publishing process today).

MIPPY: Grotius is interesting. According to your link, he developed international law in trying to justify the seizure by the Dutch of the Spanish treasure ship, mentioned by Shorto.

SUEC: I agree with you. Manhattan sounds like a lively interesting place even then. Perhaps it's in the water.

Joan: Yes, there was a sttlement in Brazil. I think the Dutch expected more from it than from the Manhattan site. There was also a settlement in Indonesia. That settlement was known as the Dutch East Indies until well after the WW11. The Swedish settlement under Minuit had pushed down as far as Wilmington via the South River.

I suppose I should be thrilled to have old Harmon Myndeart in the family but my Great grandsons would be happier if someone like Babe Ruth were our claim to fame. They tell me Van den Bogaert was only a barber.

JUSTIN: sigh. How fickle is fame.

BABI: found my Hebrew dictionary (Meridian) but it wasn't much help on Ben and Bar. In the English-Hebrew section the English word "son" was translated as "ben. In the Hebrew-English section, "bar" gave "son" as the fourth of about six meanings, while "ben" gave son as the first meaning, with many idioms, such as ben adam (son of Adam) for human being. It looks like "ben" is just the most common word, at least now. Perhaps there is a historical difference in the usage.

I agree that the Dutch seemed to expect more of Brazil and then South Africa than New Netherlands. The funny thing to me is that as Shorto seems to say.. New Netherlands was a city of adventurers and people out to make money and leave,, Albany and that area was where the actual settlers went.. Also New Jersey.. The people in those areas seemed to stay out of the political game and settle down to raise families, start industry, etc. Soome where in my notes is another Dutchman who went west.. Got as far as the current Detroit as a trapper with some Indians.. His last name was Visscher.. Now in that part of the midwest there is a small indian tribe.. Named... Fishers.. and it is believed that they were descended from Visscher and an Indian bride.. Can you imagine a whole small Tribe??

Stephanie: that's amazing!

Shorto mentions that at this time Europe was in the throes of the Thirty Years War. This war (1618-48) was an incredibly complex thing. The main contenders were the German Protestant princes, with some others like England and Sweden, the Holy Roman Empire, the Hapsburgs, and the Catholic Princes, plus many more minor principalaties, and alliances kept shifting around, so you would need a well-designed spreadsheet to keep track of the cast of thousands. A big enemy of the Dutch Republic was Spain, which held a lot of territory near them.

Thirty or forty years ago I read C. V. Wedgewood's excellent book "The Thirty Years War", which left me with a brief feeling that I understood about half of what was going on. I still remember bits of it, including the fact that Spain dedicated all of the New World treasure to its war expenses. So I looked in Wedgewood, and found out that the money from the treasure fleet that Piet Heyn captured in 1628 had been earmarked to pay the Spanish troops in Flanders, and loss of the money led to serious problems.

So, in addition to giving the Dutch investors a huge return on their money, Heyn eased the pressure of war on his country. (Flanders was mostly in Belgium and France, but with a bit in the Dutch Republic.)

I just got back from a weekend in Boston helping my sister-in-law re-arrange furniture. We saw the new Institute of Contemporary Art on Boston Harbor. Beautiful spot, but I'm not sure if some of the art is my favorite style. Oh, good, so many interesting posts this weekend!

Pat H: I was very surprised, too, that Van der Donck was so eager to go to the colonies. There he was in the hub of it all and he heads off to the wilderness. He must have felt the Call of the Wild. The new world must have been a powerful draw to a young, strong, brave, ambitious man. I guess van Renssalaer made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Didn't those words about how children should be subdued etc. remind you of that saying "Children should be seen and not heard." The Dutch streets might have been a lot cleaner for children to play in, too, when you picture the Dutch women scrubbing, scrubbing, scrubbing.

That reminds me. In an exhibit about New Netherland at the NY State Museum I saw that PIGS were the garbage company and cleaned the town streets. People threw their garbage into the streets and the pigs ate it. Didn't Shorto say something about that, too, even in the Netherlands?

Ella: Interesting article about Leiden U. Imagine how exciting it must have been for Van der Donck to attend. And exciting for the people in Renssalaerwyck to have a man with such an education join them. He was the only lawyer! (Sounds like a lawyer's dream come true!) But, it seemed to me that the tasks van Renssalaer assigned to Adriaen were a total waste of his excellent education.

Mippy: I was so interested to read that Grotious "formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory." That must have been a radical idea when countries were just building up merchant fleets and navies and vying to rule the seas and dominate world trade. This was interesting in the Grotius article: "A workable formula was found by Cornelius Bynkershoek in his De dominio maris (1702), restricting maritime dominion to the actual distance within which cannon range could effectively protect it. This became universally adopted and developed into the three-mile limit." Isn't that still the internationally-accepted limit today?

Fascinating to read about Grotius' ideas on religion and to read that he was eventually sentenced to life imprisonment by the stadtholder and had to flee to Paris. Has anyone read any of Grotius' De Jure Belli ac Pacis, the treatise on natural law regarding conflicts between nations and religions?

Oh, no, Grotius died in a shipwreck!

Justin: Barbers were surgeons, too, so Van den Bogaert must have been very skillful. I understand that's why barber poles had the red and blue lines swirling down back in the day - supposed to symbolize blood flowing when surgeons bled their patients - in the barber shop, I guess. The poles were how they advertised their multiple talents.

Stephanie: I got the idea that New Amsterdam was developing into the rough rolicking port town because of its fabulous harbor while farms were established elsewhere partly because of the patroon system. Wealthy patroons like van Renssalaer could buy up large areas of land within New Netherland and rent out land to settlers who seemed to be mainly farmers. It seems in some areas in strategic spots along the Hudson River, the Connecticut River, and the Delaware River, the Dutch established forts - as if they were saying, "This area is mine. Stay off" - like marking their territory. The forts were also trade centers, but, except for Fort Orange, did not seem to develop into thriving Dutch towns - at least not that I'm seeing yet.

Marni: Do not forget about Schnectady.

JOANK, thanks for your research into 'bar' & 'ben'. I may make a quick study of the uses of each in the Bible, and see if I can note any pattern.

It sounds reasonable that Grotius work on maritime law would arise out of the instance of a captured ship. I suspect most new laws arise because, and when, the need arises for rules and guidelines. And seizing ships had become pretty much an interntional pastime in those days.

JUSTIN,.."only a barber"?!! I hope your boys will come to appreciate their ancestor more as we learn more about him. As if being the first settler to travel inland and see the Mohawk tribes and villages...and write a journal about it for us!...were not enough.

MARNI, wasn't the building of forts a typical action for people establishing themselves in a new land,..or invading an old one? Sure, the settlers had established friendly relations with the natives, but history definitely established the premise that things could always change where people and profit are concerned. Then, too, there were also the neighboring colonoies and their pushy manners.

I'm thinking also of the forts established by the crusaders, as an example of intruders protecting themselves against those who quite reasonably object to the intrusion. Of course, the Crusaders didn't come peaceably to settle and trade, so that may be a poor example.

Babi

Justin: I am forgetting about Schenectady. Did the Dutch build a fort there? Yikes, I'm forgetting so much!! I think my brain is on overload sometimes with this book!!! Is anyone else forgetting a lot that they read in this book? I just love it and am learning so much, but there is a lot of information. I have to re-read parts. Sigh.

BaBi: It does seem that wherever colonists settled amidst other peoples, they put up forts for protection, or at the very least built palisades around their settlements.

I think it's interesting to look at the shape of the fort in our map of New Amsterdam in our book and in the Header above. The fort is shaped like a star. I think this style of fort was invented in the 15th century when cannon came into use. I believe the points of the stars are called bastions. Using this design, there is more area to place large guns for protecting the fort from many sides - vs the round towers of castles in the medieval period like those built during the Crusades.

Didn't Shorto say it was Peter Minuit who had this fort built? The first fort at New Amsterdam had been built of earth and was falling down. Minuit had an engineer design a new sturdy fort. This is the fort that stood in the spot where the Alexander Hamilton Custom House is located today.

Shorto mentions that early New Amsterdam was a "free trade port." The Dutch West India Co. allowed freelance businessmen to make trade deals with the Indians as long as the Company was the middleman to resell furs in Europe.

Various things were used as money in trading deals. Even cows! Wampum was extremely valuable. Can you picture what wampum looked like? Let me find a picture.....

Here's a belt of wampum plus info. It says here wampum shells were the white whelk shells, not the purple quahog shells that some think were wampum. (I've seen individual strings of the white wampum shells in museums, but had also read wampum was purple.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wampum

Here's another article about wampum that says it was from both the white and the purple shells:

http://www.kstrom.net/isk/art/beads/wampum.html

I was surprised to see how widespread the use of wampum for money was among Indian tribes. It seems the shells were so common. Quahog shells are lying around everywhere on the beaches where I grew up. But perhaps they became valuable because they were found only along the ocean???? Maybe hard to come by inland?

Could it have been the beautiful weaving in the wampum belts that made wampum particularly valuable as a form of money?

The Dutch built a stockade at Schenectady. It no longer stands however, today,there is a well defined area of the city called "The Stockade". It is several blocks deep and contains many houses dating from the early eighteenth century, as well as an early Dutch Reform Church. One of the homes belonged to a Van den Bogaerdt.

MARNIE, I agree there is so much - SO VERY MUCH - in this book that I just cannot remember what I read. Shorto is going to put everything he ever learned in his research into print and, although very interesting, it makes it difficult to get it summarized in my mind - what mind I have!!

I have checked a few things in the book. Shorto tells us that when Van der Donck sailed into port there had been some great changes in trade, i.e., the West India Company "gave up its monoply on trade" and being a free trading zone the New Netherland prospered. I don't know how this was accomplished exactly - was it through paying duties to other entities?

Rather reminded me of NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico) which was a big deal when Clinton was president and I don't know what that has meant either! Does anybody?

But Manhattan (it is now called by this name in the book, but which is it? New Netherland or Manhattan and where did the latter name come from?) is fast becoming a middle class neighborhood which in America is a very good thing! Something every President or would-be president promises to help through tax cuts and various means. Well............

I can't help comparing this history to the present, it's a habit, but history does repeat itself.

What's a "brass skimmer?" (pg.106)

I know two people who are reading this book, MARNIE, but are not posting and they tell me the same thing - the author tells too many little stories - gets off his subject too easily - and that detracts from the history but they enjoy reading it.

A David McCullough he is not.

The Dutch, unlike the English, did not establish permanent settlements apparently anywhere; and therefore did not spread their culture or their language to foreign countries. They were rather narrow minded there, weren't they?

"We should be clear, however, about the meaning of tolerance, which had nothing to do with 'celebrating diversity'......'putting up with' was probably closer to the mark."

Shorto, heretofore, has written quite a lot about the tolerance of the colony in this New World, but now informs us it is not what we thought tolerance to be. And then he follows that statement with this:

"If that sounds wan, consider that in Germany at the time an estimated forty per cent of the population died due to the unholy enmeshment of religious intolerance and politics that gave rise to the Thirty Years' War."

It all leaves me confused. Too much to swallow in one reading.

"Is anyone else forgetting a lot that they read in this book?" I'm so glad you posted that. I thought it was me. There is something about Shorto's writing that makes it hard to take in what he's saying.

I'm finding as I read more, it's easier. Anyway, there is so much in this book, if we only remember a fraction of it, I for one, will learn a lot.

I have the same reaction; I keep having to go back. But there is definitely a lot of good stuff in the book.

To those who are lurking and not posting, why not say anything you think of as you are reading, no matter how small, for the enjoyment of everyone.

Marnie, thanks for the links to wampum. Those belts are magnificent. I, too, wondered why it could be valuable when the shells are so common. The only thing I could think of was that since the beads are polished from a small inner portion of the shell, there might be a lot of labor involved.

On page 56, we read that in 1664, 3 Englishmen purchased a vast tract of farmland in New Jersey for, among other things, four hundred fathoms of wampum. A fathom is 6 feet: that's almost half a mile of beads.

On page 79, the Mohawks tell Van den Bogaert they want 4 hands of wampum (a hand here is a handspan, or 9-10 inches) and 4 hands of cloth for a beaver skin. Van den Bogaert tentatively agrees.

Pat H: I think you hit the nail on the head! Somebody had to MAKE the wampum beads! I never even thought about that. That must have been a huge job! Breaking up the shell pieces into the right size and shape, smoothing them, polishing, putting a hole through them. And imagine how beautiful they would have been close up with the pearlescent sheen on the white beads, the gorgeous purple of the quahog.

I've been so used to thinking about the glass beads Europeans traded, I hadn't thought about the labor involved with shell beads - and with more primitive tools.

Did anyone used to play with shells like this at the beach?! They are darn hard! And really sharp. We got cuts from broken clam shells when we were kids.

Justin: To think they still call that area "The Stockade" at Schenectady!

-----------------------------------

I'm so glad I'm not the only one forgetting. This book really is crammed full of tidbits of information I never knew before. No wonder we're forgetting! Hmmmmm.....

I hope no one is getting anxious (I call it "agita") over forgetting or the discussion questions. Those questions are there simply to encourage conversation. Feel free to ask about or comment on anything whether or not it's in those questions.

------------------------------------------------

Ella asked some interesting questions. "The West India Company...gave up its monoply on trade....was it through paying duties to other entities?" That makes sense. Did the Company forced its other colonies to buy things directly from them? But it allowed New Netherland to buy directly from other countries?

Didn't England try to enforce that with America later? Remember the Madeira wine in Founding Mothers? (I think that was the book.) Colonial America's favorite wine was Madeira because that was the only wine that didn't have to go through England first for taxation and then be sold to America?

Regarding the name "Manhattan." Ahah! I found it! Page 42. "The best guess on the origin of the Indian name that would stick is the Delaware mannahata, "hilly island," though some have suggested that simply "the island" or "the small island" is a more accurate tranlation."

The Dutch called the island "Manhattes" in some of the early reports we glimpsed. It seems that the Dutch colony on lower Manhattan became known in history as "New Amsterdam" - like on our map. The whole colony, including everything - all of the Dutch settlements between the Delaware River and the Connecticut River up to approx. Fort Orange - became known as New Netherland.

Shorto's tale is as much concerned with the records and what happened to them as it is concerned with what the records disclose about early settlement. Bits and pieces are abstracted from the records and patched into a piece. It is much like a huge picture puzzle. There is a little of known history mixed with that from the recently translated. It helps if one is familiar with European events as background. The lay of the land is also useful. We are only talking about twenty-five years of activity ie: from 1623 to 1648 when the English took over.

The term Manhattan comes from a minor tribe of about 300 or so people. They are called the Manhatesen.It is this group of people who negotiated with Peter Minuit.

The archives of the Dutch East and West India Companies prior to 1700 were cleaned out of storage and sold for scrap paper- all eighty thousand pounds.

The records of the province have been found in New York and are being translated as we discuss the book. Shorto 's work is by no means final. There is more to come.

In Amsterdam in the year 1910 a sheaf of papers turned up at an auction described as Documents on New Netherland, 1624-1626. Much of what we are reading in chapter three comes from those documents. They are referred to as the Rappard Papers.

This will explain "brass skimmer"

Brass Skimmer

Here's another one--better picture but less explanation.

Another skimmer

You used them to skim the fat or scum off soups and stews.

"I'm so glad I'm not the only one forgetting. This book really is crammed full of tidbits of information I never knew before. No wonder we're forgetting! Hmmmmm..... "

Shorto has innundated us with jopurnalistic data wrapped around a wonderful story. It is almost as if he can not wait to tell his story. Can't you just feel him getting off the beaten track in an urgent call to give us more, more, more? He is so well acquainted with the information he spills it all over the place. So many records are virtually nonexistent and he (I would imagine) has attempted to fill in the blanks. It is a lot to remember.

I must have had a Viking ancestor somewhere in the woodpile. I love the stories of piracy.
Imagine the Africans becoming slaves of the West India Company? What nerve! Shorto tells us that " Decades later, terms of slavery would be more or less standardized in the colonies, but at this point, on the free-form slightly anarchic island, some of these people were among the more stable residents."

Schenectady had a stockade. You can still get a map and walk the outlines to this day. They also had a massacre, but that was later than this book. I had relatives who died in the massacre and more that were transported to Canada..after the massacre. I love the listings of Shorto into what the ships brought and why.. Makes you or at least me realize that the settlers had a continuing relationship with the Netherlands and people shifted back and forth at will. Ella.. The dutch did in fact leave a huge heritage here. Go to Albany and Schenectady.. Walk down the area by Wall Street.. Remember the Dutch did this, not the English. It was the mid 1800's before English was a commonly used language in the Albany area..

I suppose that since so much of the resource material here is newly found and translated, that Shorto took pains to document what he was writing. Then, too, as ALF wrote so engagingly, "he is so well acquainted with the information he spills it all over the place".

I was going to respond to someone's question about the Dutch and slavery, but realized half my comment was from further on in the book. Later...

ELLA, I'm no expert on the subject, but I understood the 'monopoly on trade' referred to the practice of the East Indies Company (not the Dutch) of allowing no ships but their own to trade freely at the ports they controlled. Others either could not come in at all, or had to pay heavy commissions, etc. for the privilege. As Spain began to suffer heavy damages from the long war, she could no longer protect her stranglehold on some of these ports, and was forced give up the monopoly. Can anyone else clarify or expand on this?

As for the Dutch 'tolerance', I think their own words express it best. Remember the response when the English Pilgrims asked to settle in Leiden. "[We] refuse no honest persons ingress to come and have their residence in this city, provided that such persons behave themselves honestly, and submit to all the laws and ordinances here."

Babi

Justin: That's a great analogy of history - putting the pieces together like a huge picture puzzle. It's exciting being smack in the middle of it all. History is all around us being discovered every day. Here we are in the 21st century and there is so much we don't know about the past. Archeologists, historians, geneologists, anthropologists, all kinds of people put their discoveries in the mix and some try to see the big picture.

People throw things out thinking it's junk. Gone. Towns are destroyed and things are buried. Gone. Ships sink. Gone. Some history is lost forever. Some is later salvaged and add to the puzzle pieces.

Like Alf said, we attempt to fill in the blanks. Educated guesses. It's amazing how just one new discovery can change everyone's picture.

BaBi mentioned that the new info. Shorto is presenting is "newly found and translated." Pieces of the puzzle may be found but be useless until someone recognizes what it may be or figures out the meaning.

Pat H: I have a skimmer! Never knew what it was called until I read your link. Thanks!

Stephanie: That is astounding about the use of the Dutch language in Albany. I wonder if it was all the hustle and bustle created by the Erie Canal that changed things?

Alf: I love pirate books, too! Have you read any Sabatini novels? I just picked up Blackbeard - America's Most Notorious Pirate by Angus Konstam. Hope it's good.

BaBi: I am just beginning to learn how the "rules" of slavery evolved in America over time. Things were very different early on it appears - with the Dutch and with the English. Some blacks in America were free and owned property. Some were indentured servants. Some were slaves, but with a time limit and then they became free. Only later did it become hereditary, passed down from mother to child.

I don't remember if Shorto said anything about slavery in the Netherlands. Does anyone know?

Can anyone answer question #11?

I agree with PatH and several others who said that the style of Shorto's writing makes it difficult to take in all the details. Sometimes the reader would like him just to get on with whatever narrative he is telling. Despite this, I think he's doing a good job, so far.

Slaves were treated pretty badly in most cultures in those years. And slavery persisted long after our "story" in other countries besides ours. Britain just marked their 200-year anniversary of their abolishment of slavery ... did anyone else see that article ... cannot locate it now. Since, unfortunately, slavery was not uncommon, neither was the treatment of slaves in New Amsterdam worse than in other localities. Here's a link:

slavery in the colonies

Thanks, BABI, you are probably right. A stranglehold on the ports by one country would not have been a good thing for the colony.

MARNIE, I note that the slaves brought in by pirates who had raided the Spanish ships were employed as freedmen for the most part or were able to work for their freedom, although some were slaves for the West India Company - some became very good residents of the colony. Would that all the slaves brought to America were trested as justly, if that be just!

Shortly after writing this, Shorto gives us another glimpse into the discipline and rigidity of the Puritans and the Pilgrims up north and then to make sure we get the point he gives us an example of very lewd behavior on the part of a certain woman who wielded a sharp knife in the Manhattan colony!!!! (pg.85) OUCH!!!

Ella: Read the passage again. The comment should be oooh not ouch.

JUSTIN: it sounds like you are familiar with these documents from other reading. Is that true? It’s exciting to me to know of a whole trove of material that’s just beginning to be explored.

PATH: tank for the brass skimmer. It sounds very useful, actually. I wouldn’t mind having one.

ALF, MIPPY, ELLA: I was fascinated by the way captured slaves were treated, too. Imagine, some were kept as slaves, some freed, and some changed to indentured servants. I suppose at the whim of the ship captain who captured them. I wonder if they could talk to each other and knew there were these differences.

STEPHANIE: “It was the mid 1800's before English was a commonly used language in the Albany area.”. I had no idea! I’m sure glad some of your relatives survived the massacre!!

I’m interested in the ships too. I’ve read about the Virginia colony, how much trouble it was to get the financing together to send even one ship. I think the fur trade made all the difference. In Virginia, the ships were coming to provision the colonists, but didn’t make a profit. They were few and far between. In New Amsterdam, the colony was seen as an outpost for sending goods back to Europe. Of course, goods then had to be sent out to trade for them.

As long as the West India company had a monopoly, the colonists couldn’t bargain as to what they got for their furs. I wonder why the WIC gave that up. Maybe it was hard for them to get ships together, too. Or maybe the war got in the way.

BABI: I see you had questions about the monopoly, too.

On tolerance: Shorto calls this tolerance “putting up with” differences. That sounds pretty lame to us, but in an atmosphere where people were routinely killed or thrown out for being different, it’s a huge step!

ELLA: yes, Shorto makes quite a contrast with the Puritans and Pilgrims. But of course, we don’t have their court records. I was surprised to read that (at least in one Puritan town), couples routinely did not get married until she was pregnant. Then, they got married, or else! This was considered strict morals.

JUSTIN: NO COMMENT!

Ella: Shorto has really provided us with some spicy material from those old cases. For a minute there I thought I had missed reading about the Dutch colonial John Wayne Bobbitt! I re-read the page a couple of times thinking I had skipped over something. Then I saw Justin's hysterical remark!

Stephanie was certainly right when she told us the Dutch colonials liked to sue each other.

JoanK: I hope you are smiling? You too, Ella?

We discover on this same infamous page the "whore" mentioned in the title of this same chapter - Griet Reyniers, barmaid and whore back in Amsterdam. I thought it was fun reading that young Wouter van Twiller (upcoming director of New Netherland) "became enamored of her" and carried her off to the New World. She plied her trade aboard on the passage over. Shorto displays his humor when he says, "Landing at Manhattan and finding it, so to speak, virgin territory, she set up shop."

I think if high school history had had some of these tidbits, the classrooms would have been packed. But, I suppose the teacher would have been fired.

We are so Puritan in some respects, it is unfortunate. We tend to skip over life until we are eighty and can joke about it.

I am finding myself starting to try to memorize this book, page after page after page, of so much new history along with all of the comments made here. And memorizing is not the way to read it!

I just finished about 200 posts that I missed over the last week or more and am glad to find that I am not the only one stumbling around all this new information plus trying to remember what I learned "back in the olden days", as my kids used to call it.

I agree with Alf about this author's having so much to tell us, he is having a hard time spewing it all forth for us to know. He is just bubbling with info. I can almost see him rubbing his hands together with glee everytime something new arises.

I am enjoying the book though. Way back in the beginning when Shorto mentions the Iroquois League, I remembered reading just last summer, a short history of that group, written by the great-grandmother of the owners of a B&B up on Lake Cayouga(sp?).

The meetings of the Indians with the man who was sent to see what happened to the beaver trade were met in way very similar to the way the Indians out west met with Lewis&Clark's expedition which we read and discussed last summer. For the most part, the tribes seemed to want to get along with these new folks who were welcomed into their camps. I will try to find my copy of the book to remind me of this Iroquois League. I do remember that whoever was President at the time told his scouts or army to kill all the Indians who objected to moving away from their land as we, the new guys in town, wanted to own the land and to benefit or profit from it. Back later!

Iroqouis History

More on the Iroquois

The Iroquois Flag

I realize that I bringing up a subject long passed by but thought someone might like to read and know this.

I think our pictures of the puritans could stand some work. It was quite common in that period to be pregnant at marriage. Partly because many of the ministers came and went.. You will find in the Albnay-Schenectady records and all of the upstate New York,, People marrying and baptising their first child at the same ministers visit. They lived far away from others and journeyed to them.

I knew that was common as settlers moved West, STEPHANIE, but I didn't realize that ministers were that rare in the early colonies. I have heard of different 'ceremonies' couples used to make their joining official until a minister came around. One was stepping over a broom, tho' the significance of that always did escape me.

Babi

Stephanie

I have often wondered why, when I am doing family genealogy, I find a child whose birth and baptism are recorded close to or on his/hers parents wedding date, yes, even on the same day. So, that's the reason? It was the common thing to do because the minister back was a traveling parson.

Here's good little article and picture of the church in Albany. Dutch Reform Church-Albany">At the bottom of the article is a list of other historical records of this church. Also links to other Albany churches. I noted that this one was built in 1642 and that before that the services were held in a patroon owned building. And that would have been Killian Van Renssaleer.

"Killian Van Rensselaer established a plantation or "patroonship" in the upper Hudson Valley as an efficient way to cultivate the land and mine the wilderness for farm and forest products that could be exported to Europe and sold. Before his death in 1643, the "first patroon" engaged hundreds of talented and willing settlers from across Europe and sent them to Rensselaerswyck to be his tenants. These American pioneers were primarily farmers but also were artisans, tradesmen, and others who could support what became the most successful settlement initiative of the New Netherland era."

The first churches of Albany(Renssalearwyck) are listed under another link on this site.

Ann: Good to hear from you! I'm glad you like the book. Certainly no need at all to attempt to memorize anything. We want to enjoy ourselves! Shorto is covering over a century of events in one small book; he's covering world history, not just events in New Netherland.

The Iroquois info. you provided is very intesting. I'm taking the liberty of quoting from it:

"The Algonquin called them the Iroqu (Irinakhoiw) 'rattlesnakes.' After the French added the Gallic suffix '-ois' to this insult, the name became Iroquois. The Iroquois call themselves Haudenosaunee meaning 'people of the long house.'"

There is a wonderful Iroquois longhouse replica in the New York State Museum. The photo I took is too dark to show you, but I found a good drawing on the web that looks like it.

The 5 tribes of the Iroquois Confederacy were "the Seneca, the 'keepers of the Western Door'; the Cayugas, the 'people of the marsh' and 'keepers of the Great Pipe'; The Onondaga, who were the 'name bearers' who kept the wampum belt that contained the history of the Iroquois; the Oneida, the 'stone people' symbolized by the Great Tree; and lastly the Mohawk, the 'keepers of the eastern door.'"

The 5 tribes of the Iroquois Confederacy remind me of the area of the Mohawk River Valley in New York today. Has anyone been to the beautiful country of the Finger Lake region? It's wine country today! Just picture the Indians hunting there for beaver in the 17th century. Here's a map of the region today. So many places named after the tribes of the Iroquois Confederacy.

I'M STILL SMILING! AND I'M NOT THROUGH WITH LIFE YET - STILL SKIPPING, JUSTIN!! Well, some might call it ambling slowly.

Anyone our age might still claim to be puritan in character but have you seen how the young are behaving???

BEUTIFUL PICTURE, MARNIE! I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO GO TO THAT AREA. And that map is certainly interesting; all those names.

But "cuyuga" is what the horn of the automobiles in my youth used to beep.

Ella: I'm still laughing about your horn beep. I've heard that beep in movies!

I love the way the Finger Lakes look on the map. And there's an Indian legend about them and their appearance:

The Hand of the Great Spirit - Excerpt from Legends and Stories of the Finger Lakes Region by Emerson Klees

"It is said that the Finger Lakes were made by the impression of the hand of the Great Spirit on central New York State. However there are six major Finger Lakes. West to east they are; Canandaigua, Keuka, Seneca, Cayuga, Owasco and Skaneateles.

As told in Iroquois legend, the Great God Manitou wanted to reward the Iroquois Confederacy for their courage in battle and their devotion to the Great Spirit. He decided to bring part of their happy hunting ground down from the heavens.

According to the legend, there are six Finger Lakes because the hand of Manitou slipped when he was pushing the portion of Indian Paradise down from the heavens, causing six indentations that later became the lakes."

Interesting that the word "Iroquois" comes from an Algonquin (an enemy?) pejorative. John and I are more familiar with the tribes of New Mexico and Arizona. The term "Anasazi" which is commonly used for the ancient cliff dwelling people of the area is the term given the early Europeans by the Navajo, and it means "enemy of my ancestors" - and referred to what were probably early Puebloan people, ancestors of the present-day Hopi, Zuni, etc. The Nat'l Park Service is working to replace "Anasazi" with "Ancestral Puebloan people". It does help to know the origin of some of these words.

MaryZ - I think you would love this discussion, knowing of your interest in the American Indian. Do get the book and join us!

I'm having a devil of a time catching up - mind is on new grandchild. Mama has been having contractions for the last two weeks - we're waiting to take off as soon as we get the word.

But, catch up I did! I'm so glad you haven't sailed into Week 3 without me! I just loved "The Lawman" - now I know what you've been talking about - skimmers and the like. I must keep up!

Ella, thanks for the information on Leiden U. I wondered as I read Shorto's book if a university that had the status of Oxford in the 17th c. was still in business! Geee, it has 17, 000 students and 3000 faculty members! It is going strong!

Funny to think our Van der Donck attended law school there with Descartes, isn't it? Sort of puts things in perspective. Van der Donck had so many options upon graduation and he chose to go "nowhere" - the wilderness. Shorto suggests that Descartes inspired him to do this - "wishing to no longer seek any other science than the knowledge of himself or of the great book of the world."

I know he was "hired" by van Rensselaer to come to his fiefdom in the North - but didn't you get the feeling that he was going to stay in Manhattan? I sort of hoped he would bring law and order to the struggling colony. Even though things had improved since the West India Company let go of their monopoly on trade - the town seems to need a lawman like this!

I had to smile at the image of Van der Donck emerging from his rough farm dwelling place - in his lawman outfit. A black cowboy hat and a silver star is what I would expect as the badges of his office. But oh weren't they all so impressed with his black plumed hat and silver plated rapier! "Cutting edge quintessence" indeed! Welcome to the lawman! I'm still hoping he makes it to Manhattan.

JoanP: You've caught up! Yay! Just on time because we're just moving on to Week 3 - it's Thursday already where I live.

I'm still smiling from your marvelous picture of our Adriaen as quite a dandy in his plumed "cowboy" hat amidst the folk in Renssalaerswyck. Yes, he was the new graduate just over from the worldly university city of Leiden, flaunting his stuff, wearing his rapier. Let's see how he fits in.

I'm so used to picturing the Dutch of this period in the solemn dark plain Puritan garb that we see in many paintings. But, we find Adriaen with a plumed hat! Actually, many Dutch wore quite fancy clothing. Here are a few examples of fancier Dutch clothing about the time van der Donck arrived in New Netherland. Check out the shoes!

Here's Making Music by Molenaer, 1630:

Here's a Civic Guard with a rapier in a painting by Hals, 1639:

Here are some young Dutchmen in Joyful Detail by Hals, 1630s:

ANN: glad you’re back! An interesting parallel, and great links. The discussion has not gone by:We’re going to see more about the relationship with the Indians and how it changed next week, and I suspect throughout the book.

The first link gives a copy of the Iroquois constitution. It is very interesting. It is the men who debate and pass the laws, the positions are hereditary, but it is the women in the family who hold the title and decide which of the men should get it. It is also the women who tell the men to depose any chief who is not doing his duty properly, and with whom to replace him.

Marni’s second link on wampum has a picture of the piece of wampum that memorializes the original treaty of the Iroquois League (at that point, five nations. A sixth was added later). The site calls it the first united Nations treaty. It’s the first piece discussed (the Hiawatha belt). If you missed it the first time, take a look.

WAMPUM AS TREATY

I was surprised that it said that to the Indians, these pieces of wampum were the equivelant of treaties. It was the white man, it says, that changed it into money.

ANN and BABI: I never thought of it either in terms of the shortage of ministers. Shows we shouldn’t be too quick to impose our ideas on other times.

That’s an interesting church. If you click on the underlined “Patroon”, you’ll see a map of Rensselaerswyck, Killian Van Rensselaer’s "patroonship" in the upper Hudson, which plays a part in next weeks reading.

JOANP: our lawman is quite a guy, isn’t he! We’ll get to know him better next week. I think you won’t be surprised at which of the two places he decides to go, when you learn his reason.

Hi, JoanK! I'm 3 hours ahead of you and it's Thursday here, so here goes.....

Here's our schedule for this week:

Week 3: (Thurs., March 29, thru Wed., April 4) – Discuss Pages 110 thru 166 (Chpt. 6: The Council of Blood, Chpt. 7: The Cause, Chpt. 8: The One-Legged Man)

JoanK and I are not going to post questions up in our Header this week. We'll add them instead as we move along. Please add your own questions or comments as you come across things in the reading that you'd like to discuss.

------------------------------------------

OK, here we go!

Willem Kieft replaced Van Twiller as the Dutch West India Company’s director of New Netherland in 1638. How many directors is that now? Let's see....Ahah! I found a list (good thing because I can't remember them all!)

Cornelis Jacobszoon May appointed in 1624, Willem Verhulst in 1625, Peter Minuit 1626, Sebastiaen Jansen Krol in 1632, Wouter van Twiller in 1633....

Wow, what a big turnover! All of these men (except Minuit) were appointed by the Dutch West India Company. (Peter Minuit was voted in by members of the colony, if I recall correctly.) The Company is not exactly doing an ace job of picking its directors, if you ask me. Either that or the job is pretty stressful. The company keeps recalling its directors from New Netherland. What is going on???

In Chapter 6 we meet director Willem Kieft.

How would you describe Kieft and his governing style? What had the Dutch West India Company charged him with accomplishing?

Kiefer is the fellow who attacked the Indians unnecessarily and caused great animosity between the Indians and the settlers. The settlers voted to get rid of him after he had done great damage to the well being and safety of the people of the fort. He was replaced by Petr styvesant who in turn was replaced by the English.

Just a quick aside here or look back, before I get to reading Chap 6. You mentioned visiting the Finger Lakes region and I must say that I have seen a great deal of it in the past 27 years as my daughter and her family live in Ithaca. When I mentioned the book about the Iroqois League that I read last summer, I was referring to a visit that we made last July when our ggrandson and his parents were home for a visit. We stayed on Cayuga Lake in that B&B. Gorgeous!

The Finger Lakes are just too beautiful and they hold a boatload of history that most of us didn't learn in history class unless we grew up in NY. I have many photos from over the years of the area. I love the myth of how the lakes were formed and I sent it to my daughter this morning. Lovely!

Did anyone watch Jeopardy on Tuesday night? The final question was to identify an artist's teacher and guess who knew the answer??? It was so easy since I have been looking at Rembrandt's paintings more often while discussing in here and his student tried to paint just like him! Yes, the answer was Rembrandt. Ah, well, on to today's assignment. Back later, I have Tai Chi class this morning and other errands to run.

I guess the trivia in this part is exciting to me.. I descend through Claes Cornelis Swits and the family was a well known one down the years. Claes claimed in documents to be German, but listed Zurichersees as his home residence and that was Switzerland. His farm was named "Ottor Spoor" and he was in residence by 1638. He married Lybet Dircks probably in Zurichersees and had Cornelis and Jillisje. I descend through Cornelis. He was killed by the Indians as the book states.. I dont think of him as ancient. He was born ca 1585 and died 1641..so 56 is not that old. He was born on an island Schoewan. His son Cornelis also an ancestor was also murdered by Indians, but later on 15 Sept 1655. By the way,, the two grown sons is sort of puzzling to me, since genealogists give hima son and a daughter..If there was a second son, he died with no heirs.The daughter did marry several times and stayed in New Netherlands. One of my favorite lines. Very clear and detailed.

ANN, I did see that Jeopardy show, and like you I found the portrait so very like those by Rembrandt, that I also guessed the answer correctly. Those portraits are so memorable!

Kieft's background was one of ineptitude and lack of integrity, but...he was of good family! Which means, of course, that someone in his family pulled the strings to get their black sheep as far away as possible. The Dutch governors of the DWI company were consistent in making poor choices for their New Netherlands colony. It seems their attention was given to those colonies that brought in the most profit, ..which did not include New Netherlands, in spite of the valuable beaver pelts.

KIeft's governing style? Imperious, egotistic, ill-informed and cowardly.

Babi

I am so thrilled to have gone to Tai Chi today, because one of the ladies in there heard me talking about the book and our discussion and I sent her the link to this discussion and she might join us. She is a direct descendent of one of the original Dutch settlers in Manhattan. Isn't this just too delicious???? So, I told her to just lurk at first but to think about joining us.

My problem here is that I can't find the free join page. Does anyone know where that is? I tried everything but never got there. Help!

Stephanie, you and my friend probably have some same relatives. This is great fun!

Justin & BaBi: Kieft wasn't director long, either, but, as you say, he certainly caused some damage in his brief tenure. Amazing how then and now one man can, by one deed, change the world forever.

BaBi: I wonder if all of the directors had family ties that helped get them the job?

Ann: I got that answer on Jeopardy, too, and thought right away of our book club! I was excited to read about the gal from your Tai Chi class! How fun! I do hope she finds her way here. I'll see if I can find out the web address you requested.

What a coincidence! Just 2 days ago I was talking to a woman in my Curves exercise class. She, too, is descended from original Dutch settlers - but from New Jersey. She didn't know about the book either and was so delighted to hear about it. She won't be joining us because she is too busy now, but she's buying the book for the summer.

Stephanie: Does the last name "Slingerland" mean anything to you regarding the early settlers? I think it's very exciting you are descended from Claes Cornelis Swits. Such fascinating info about the family history!

What a sad story about old??? Claes Swits in our book. He seemed to know about everyone.

Why was Claes killed? How did his killing echo?

Stephanie! How thrilling to have a descendent of Claes Swits in our midst! This is becoming more real as pieces to the puzzle fit together in a meaningful way! As I understood it, Claes was killed out of revenge - not because of anything he did personally - everyone seemed to like and respect him - even the Indian who cut off his head. There was an underlying resentment for another earlier massacre - by the Europeans. Claes sounds like a good guy - I'd be proud to have him in my family tree! Oh, I'm sure his killing will echo - but haven't got that far yet!

I'm enjoying reading about Capes May (in New Jersey) and Henlopen (in Delaware.) We vacation here - my son's in-laws live in Lewes, Delaware - they had a beautiful wedding here not so long ago. The Ferry runs from Lewes on Cape Henlopen over to Cape May in New Jersey. New Jersey relatives came over to the wedding on the Ferry. Here's a brief history of the Dutch settlement of Lewes - the first town in Delaware.
Terrible massacre here too - revenge again! I keep marvelling at the early settlers - looking for a new life in a new world - and tolerance. And yet the Indian settlers are massacred, slaves bought and sold...tolerance seems to mean they want tolerant treatment for themselves, but it doesn't work both ways.

It sounds as if the Dutch descendents are fitness buffs! Annie, I think that we've been coming in to SeniorNet for so long that we've forgotten what it looks like to newcomers. Do you see the top of the page where it says - "Welcome! You are logged in as Ann Alden? A newcomer won't see any name there, but instead some little boxes that say Register or Log in. When coming in for the first time, the newcomer registers a name and email address. That will get her in and I'm quite sure her computer will remember that in the future.

Thank you, JoanP, for the help with free registration.

Ann: I also have a URL that anyone can use to register. Type in the following address and Enter to reach the Home page of SeniorNet.

http://www.seniornet.org

In the left-hand column under More Info, find "Register" and click on "Discussion and Chat Access." Follow the few steps to register and create a Password.

JoanP: That is such a fascinating history of Lewes! That was another terrible massacre! I was wondering if it had anything to do with fallout resulting from the debacle after Claes Swits' murder. But, no, that murder didn't happen until 1641.

Justin-

Do you recall we just visited the New York Museum last summer? Nancy

ANN: great that you know the finger lake district so well. My daughter went to college in Ithaca, so we were there many times: did some touring, but not as much as I would have liked. It’s a beautiful area. And I remember, the wine growers in the area would hold wine tastings on the weekends, and you could go and taste their wares. Some very good wines.

Oh, STEPHANIE, how exciting to read about your ancestors. I’ll bet the genealogists are right about the son and daughter. Shorto is more likely to be careless about what to him is probably an unimportant detail.

But it puts us on notice to be alert for other mistakes. I think a number have felt that Shorto sees things in extremes. We still have to feel out how reliable he is.

Interesting that it’s one of your favorite lines. Is it because the information on it is clear and detailed, or other reasons.

You never told us why you don’t like Minuit? Now that we’ve read about him, do you want to tell us?

JUSTIN and ANN: yes, it’s hard to think of anything good to say about Kieft. The patronage system is working here about as well as it ever works (that is badly).

Can you imagine the sheer fury of having the lives of yourself and your family and everything you’ve worked for put in danger because of the ignorance and stupidity of one outsider, who comes in knowing nothing, and won’t listen to those who do!

JOANP: this discussion is really opening my eyes! I’ve been in Lewes many time: we used to vacation at Rehoboth/Dewey Beach. But I had no idea of it’s history!!

“tolerance seems to mean they want tolerant treatment for themselves, but it doesn't work both ways”. What do the rest of you think?

Interesting to hear that Stephanie is a decendent of Claes Swits. I am Justin's daughter and we are direct decendents of Claes Swits through his daughter Jillsje. I'm at work so I'm not sure I spelled the name exactly right. She married Harmen Van Der Bogaerdt and so forth. Stephanie- how does your line go from Claes?

Nancy

WOW! Maybe you two are related!

NFASH: great that you are joining with your father! He adds so much to our discussions. I'm delighted to meet you.

I just came across this piece of information: Albany has a minor league basketball team - the Albany Patroons.

http://www.albanypats.com/

University of Leiden:

It has kept its reputation in some fields at least. An acquaintance of mine got a PhD in physical chemistry there in 1961. He was impressive enough to write his own ticket, so this was where he really wanted to go. In the process he learned enough Dutch to defend his thesis in that language--I don't know if that was required--and he also gained 50 pounds.

Nancy & Justin: I didn't realize you were related. And now - WOA - you both might be related to Stephanie?!? Oh, my gosh!

This is getting better and better!

Speaking of relations, BaBi had mentioned Director Willem Kieft's family connections. I just noticed on pg 112 that Rembrandt featured Kieft's cousin, Willem van Ruytenburch, in his painting The Night Watch. Here is the cousin, per Shorto, right of center, in the "dashing yellow ensemble and holding his scabbard."

Mary Z: The Albany Patroons!?! Holy smokes!

Pat H: Were the classes your friend attended at Leiden conducted in Dutch? (It seems they would be.) I wonder what the 50 lbs was from - cheese and beer?

I just noticed something else on pg 112. The Wickquasgeck Indian who cut off Claes' head had been the only one who escaped from a massacre of members of his tribe by Europeans 15 years earlier - that was in 1626 - same year of another massacre we read about last week. Do you suppose there could have been any relationship between those 2 massacres?

I'm going to be gone for awhile tomorrow. Please jump in as you feel like it. If you wish, take a crack at discussing the questions below.

---------------------------------------------

Shorto tells us in Chapter 6 that the Dutch West India Co. sent their colony directors off to work with "a single tool: military dictatorship." It worked in their other outposts around the world, but not in New Netherland.

Why not? What was different there?

--------------------------------------------

Kieft had been assigned the task of turning around a failing corporate venture, per Shorto. As soon as Kieft arrived in New Amsterdam, he was faced with handling some important situations. Two problems were:

(1) paying for soldiers at the forts, soldiers who were protecting Company interests and people, and protecting the Indians because of the land treaties

(2) the Claes Swits murder

How did Kieft handle these problems?

I think the reason that Military Dictatorship did not work was that many people came and fell in love with the rich green country. They decided they wanted to stay, not go back to Holland and they settled in. When a place is your home, you feel quite differently about what is going on around you. Minuit..I always thought of him as the absolute worst of the leaders, but reading this book, I realize he was pretty normal.. The Swits family.. They were such good citizens, they moved to Albany and then Schenectady.. always volunteered in all of the minor wars. Claes son Cornelis married while still in Europe and he and his wife had inheritances there and actually got Kieft to act for them to bring the money back to them. They did not want to return to old Europe. Slingerland is of course a famous name in upstate New York. I am not related, but a lot of people sure are. As I remember later in the book they speak of Philippe du Treuix ( du trow) and I have four separate lines to him. But will discuss him later.

STEPHANIE: that's a very good answer. Shorto emphasizes that the Dutch mostly had outposts, not colonies. Presumably, the people in those outposts thought of that as a job, not a home country.

When reading about Kieft, I was reminded of working for the government: how a sometimes a political appointee (it didn't seem to matter which party) would come in as head not knowing anything and not listening to those who had been there, and make a mess. We take it for granted that our jobs are dictatorships, but don't accept that in our personal life.

How interesting that they are using that name, Patroons! And we know where and why! Great!

When I finished reading just 4 pages of Chap 6, my only thought was, "And this is how we make wars happen!" The human race is just slightly nuts sometimes! And, Klieft is a perfect example of stupidity. Although John Mason and Nathaniel Bacon weren't seeing down the road to the consequences either.

Thanks for the links. I have forwarded them to my friend who may now be related to Stephanie and nFash! Wow! Any day now, they will be planning a family reunion. Tee hee!

My daughter had not heard the myth about the Great Spirit making the Finger Lakes and she loved it. And, to think, that we all thought the lakes were caused by glaicers! What do we know!

ANN: great -- the First Annual Island-at-the Middle-of-the-World-relatives family Reunion!! Held (where else) in Manhattan.

This is very exciting.

The seat of the celebration might well be at the Old Customs House-site of the fort in Battery Park where the ship's guns were mounted.

There must be thousands of us alive today. We do multiply.

Stephanie: The landscape in New Netherland must have been so very different from the homeland - and so much more of it. I was thinking, too, that the climate might have been more enticing for permanent settlement than that in some of the other Dutch colonies such as Batavia where there was such heat and widespread malaria.

Thank you for the info about the Slingerland name. I'm going to tell my friend!

Ann: Re Klieft and "And this is how we make wars happen!" - It doesn't take much of a spark in the right (wrong) place at the right (wrong) time. I'm thinking of that very thing today with the situation of the British sailors captured by Iran and the squabble over whose waters the British were in.

That's neat that your daughter had not heard of that legend before! I love the way we're learning things in this discussion and then passing them along.

Justin: The old Customs House - what a perfect spot for a reunion of descendents of Claes Swits!

Speaking of family descendents.....I had a fun surprise today. Jerry sent us another file of Rembrandt's painting "The Night Watch" - it's lighter so you can see all of the people in the painting. I told my husband, Bob, about it. Guess what! Bob's father told him that one of the people in "The Night Watch" is supposed to be Bob's ancestor! Here's the picture from Jerry. Thanks, Jerry!

Bob can't remember which one his father pointed out to him - all he could remember was that he was on the left side. He thought it might be the fellow in the red suit; then he thought maybe the guy in back of him. Then he just didn't know. I looked it up on the web. All I could find was that it was a group portrait of the militia company of Frans Banning Cocq. The central figures are Cocq and his Lieutenant, Willem van Ruytenburgh. Some names are listed on a plaque added to the painting which says this:

"Frans Banning Cocq, heer van Purmerlant en Ilpendam, capiteijn, Willem van Ruijtenburch van Vlaerdingen, heer van Vlaerdingen, sergeant, Barent Harmansen, Jan Adriaensen Keyser, Elbert Willemsen, Jan Clasen Leydeckers, Jan Ockersen, Jan Pietersen Bronchorst, Harman Iacobsen Wormskerck, Jacob Dircksen de Roy, Jan vander Heede, Walich Schellingwou, Jan Brugman, Claes van Cruysbergen, Paulus Schoonhoven."

I highlighted Bob's ancestor's name in bold red - Jan Clasen Leydeckers. Does anyone know who's who in the painting?

Marni it is your Photo only chanced it in Irfan view enhance colour and ghance the Gamma amazing what you can see

I believe that the Books group ate dinner in the old custom house restaurant?? when they were in NYC in 1998! So that would be the perfect spot! And, B&L leaders are discussing the possibility of going back in 2008. Whoa, we could meet some of the ancestors of the folks in the book. How super it that??

Yes, Marni, the world just goes on and on with happenings such as this Iranian and British squabble. I just hope it doesn't escalate.

How exciting for your husband, Bob, to see an ancestor's face in a piece of art that old. 300 years old! Mercy! And, I am just happy to have a photo of my gg's and their family in front of their new home in 1895.

I do feel sometimes that I am reading the "begats" of New Amsterdam and the Netherlands. And I have trouble keeping them all in mind. But, what's new about that in my world?

I didn't mention that my most well marked pages are 121&122. I am especially fond of the very first partial paragraph at the top of page 122. (IMHO)What great ideas this newly elected council is coming up with.

How exciting to be part of The Night Watch. That is a favorite painting of mine,but then I cannot think of a Rembrandt that I do not like. We saw lots of his work in Amsterdam, but the Getty in California also has a lot of his portraits as well.. Kieft seems to have had the popular opinion that all Indians were bad. Its a shame he did not listen harder to the council of twelve.. But as I noted, he must have been popular with the Swits family, because the son depended on him to close the estate in the Netherlands and send the money to him.

MARNI, your remark about the landscape and climate of New Netherlands reminded me of something that puzzled me earlier. In writing about the Rensselaer plantation, Shorto said that the river froze over during the winter, shutting the settlers off from the New Netherlands settlement until Spring. That seems odd, to me. These are the Dutch! You know..frozen canals, ice skates, ice sleds. If they can build forts, they can surely make ice sleds. I can't help wondering if Shorto is mistaken about this.

I also had an "Oh, dear" reaction when reading that the first translation of Van Der Donck's "A Description of New Netherlands", was "badly flawed" and omitted whole portions of the text. And that was the translation on which historians have been relying ever since. A good translation was not made until 1991, and that one was still unpublished at the time Shorto's book was completed. Doesn't that make you wonder just how much of what you think you know is wrong?

Babi

Babi - it takes time, but the truth always makes itself known. I truly believe that. I'm glad we are finally learning the facts. We grew up knowing that Indians were savages - what we didn't know how they were provoked into the savagery!

Kieft - a terrible, murderous man with no respect for human life - though a Dutchman professing "tolerance." I read with interest in "Council of Blood" that Dutch tolerance had nothing to do with "celebrating diversity" but that it meant "putting up with it." Kieft didn't see the Indian as worthy of putting up with their differences. I haven't read what happened to him yet. I can't help but hope he gets what he deserved. I absolutely loved reading about his Council of Twelve and how it backfired on him.

Have been watching the dates and realize that we are getting nearer to the English takeover. They won't meet much resistance, will they? It seems that Kieft's war brought about the downfall of the Dutch colony - leaving the residents huddled inside Fort Amsterdam where the Old Customs' house stands today. Ann, didn't we have a meal in Fraunces Tavern? If not on the site of the Customs' House, it was certainly close enough. There are a number of historical markers we can read - when we all gather together down on Pearl St. in 2008.

Stadt Huys and Fraunces Tavern
When 85 Broad Street (at the end of Stone Street) was built, it covered two blocks, obliterating Stone Street, the first street to be paved in the Dutch colony. The ground-floor hallway follows the original street. A marker in the sidewalk at the entrance shows the old street plan, and paving marks the original curb as well as the foundations of two buildings that stood on the Pearl Street side of the block in colonial times. Pearl Street, named for an abundance of oysters, was once the original shoreline of Manhattan." Faunces Tavern/Old Customs House

I've been reading more on Pavonia (Jersey City), site of the horrible massacre - and Newark too. Will be back in a moment.

My Alsacian grandmother lived in Newark, New Jersey. I remember spending time with her there when I was a kid - when Newark was still the "Queen City"- and a place to be proud of. It was so clean - I can still remember the women out on their porches every morning (or so it seemed) with buckets of hot soapy water, scrubbing their stoops. "Scrubby Dutch" by grandmother called them - herself included. I've been trying to figure out why the Germans called themselves Dutch - there were plenty of them on 5th St. and I don't know that any of them were really Dutch. This chapter answered that question for me, I think. "It's a misnomer to think of Dutch in this era as an ethnic signifier. As English, French, German, Swedish, Jewish came and settled in the Dutch provinces they adopted the language ...and a ready framework for looking at the world." They became"Dutch."

More about my "Dutch" grandmother's Newark -

"In 1624 the first settlers of New Amsterdam arrived. They consisted of only 8 men. (New Amsterdam meant New York and New Jersey to the Dutch. It was the English who separated these two states.)

The settlement on the New Jersey side would soon be known as the Achter Col Colony. Achter Col was the name the Dutch would use when referring to the body of water we call the Hackensack River. It would be natural to call the first settlement on its banks by the same name.

In 1624 the first settlers of New Amsterdam arrived. They consisted of only 8 men. (New Amsterdam meant New York and New Jersey to the Dutch. It was the English who separated these two states.)

The settlement would soon be known as the Achter Col Colony. Achter Col was the name the Dutch would use when referring to the body of water we call the Hackensack River. It would be natural to call the first settlement on its banks by the same name.

The plantation of Achter Col (today Newark, NJ) was burned to the ground. Achter Col was never again occupied but it did remain a meeting place for the Dutch to trade with the Native Americans. In 1656 Peter Stuyvesant even recommended that the Dutch West India Company rebuild Achter Col. However, the Dutch were occupied with other matters, and before they could do this, New Amsterdam was taken over by the English and renamed New York.

In 1660 the name Bergen was given to the major Dutch village in New Jersey. It was later applied to the county (1683). It was one of the original counties of the state and included Hudson County. This Dutch name translates as "a ridge between two marshlands" and probably relates to the geology of the area. There is a very small chance the name may relate to a small village in Holland called Bergen- History of Bergen County, N.J.

Achter Col was never again occupied but it did remain a meeting place for the Dutch to trade with the Native Americans. In 1656 Peter Stuyvesant even recommended that the Dutch West India Company rebuild Achter Col. However, the Dutch were occupied with other matters, and before they could do this, New Amsterdam was taken over by the English and renamed New York. In 1660 the name Bergen was given to the major Dutch village in New Jersey. It was later applied to the county (1683). It was one of the original counties of the state and included Hudson County.

This Dutch name translates as "a ridge between two marshlands" and probably relates to the geology of the area. There is a very small chance the name may relate to a small village in Holland called Bergen- History of Bergen County, N.J.

You are correct. It was the Fraunces Tavern where some of the group that had arrived early met for dinner. I was just talking to Judy Laird and she says this is true. That's a nice site to get an idea of the history and the walking tours recommended.

The New Jersey waterfront area described in the map on the flyleaf of Shorto and marked Pavonia is called Hoboken. I think Hoboken extended further south then than it does now and did even when I was a boy. The current waterfront in that community is now a park that overlooks the ruins of the World Center and all of lower Manhattan. Jersey City forms a western collar around Hoboken and it's border is above the palisade at the western edge.

There is also an escarpment at the eastern edge of Hoboken, bordering the river for a portion of Hoboken's length, where a cave of some size was located when I was a boy. The cave was thought to have been inhabited by indians at one time. It is possible this was the site of the massacre in Pavonia. I am speculating, of course, since knowledge of Kieft's War was unknown at the time.

I think there is an error in the heading. The publisher blurb indicates that the English took Manhattan in 1644. However it was not until 1664 that the Brits showed up with ships and guns and a claim from the English King Charles to the land discovered by Hnry Hudson. The claim reached from Maine to Delaware.

Justin: You have sharp eyes! You are absolutely correct. Patwest will be correcting that for us shortly. Thanks for bringing that to our attention.

Jerry: That is really neat how you were able to bring to light all of the detail.

BaBi: That was odd that an iced-over river would stop the northern-living Dutch. You reminded me of the story "Hans Brinker or the Silver Skates." Was that by Hans Christian Andersen? Re "Doesn't that make you wonder just how much of what you think you know is wrong?" Boy, does it ever!

Ann, JoanP & Stephanie: Pages 121 & 122 have some very important information that you mentioned. Shorto says that Willem Kieft was now "launched on a full-scale retaliation" after Claes Swits' murder. "The natives had now shown that they could never be trusted; extermination was the only solution."

Well, unfortunately, that seems to have been the story of relations between the Europeans and the Indians for centuries afterward.

Also on pg. 122 we find Kieft wants popular support to annihilate the area tribes. So he asks the residents to nominate a council of 12 men to assist him in deciding on a course of action. Hah! Big mistake for Kieft! The council was only advisory, but this was a big step.

To me this was one of the most important events in the book. It was the beginnings of democratic government in New York. Shorto says, "[Kieft] deserves some credit for bringing into being the first popularly chosen body in what would become New York State, one of the first in the New World..."

The council selected David de Vries as their president. And look who's on the council - Joris Rapalje, husband of Catalina Trico.

The council did not agree with Kieft on war. Instead, they recommended Kieft request the murderer be surrendered over by the tribe to the Dutch. Also they recommended that, in the event of any military expedition, Kieft personally lead the expedition. Hah!

And then, to top it off, the council of 12 began advising Kieft on other matters! They wanted "certain rights for individuals, 'according to the custom in Holland.'" And they wanted their council, or a like body, "to become a permanent representative assembly, as existed in even the smallest villages in the United Provinces."

Kieft's response was a decree that the council was to hold no further meeting. He forbade them to call any type of assembly or meeting except by his express order on pain of punishment. And then Kieft went ahead ordering his soldiers to attack Indian villages, a command that resulted in a series of attacks and counter-attacks called Kieft's War that lasted for years.

JoanP: Thank you for the info about Kieft, Fraunces Tavern, lower Manhattan, and New Jersey. You and Justin are sharing the most wonderful stories about old New Jersey!

Re "It seems that Kieft's war brought about the downfall of the Dutch colony" - I'm not giving up on the Dutch just yet. The East India Co. directors having been coming and going. We have yet to see the "one-legged man."

Yes, that counsel was wonderful! I especially like the decision that "in the event of any military expedition, Kieft personally lead the expedition". If only that were universal, how many wars do you think there would be?

Marni it is a simple program and free at that use it a lot

Joan BERGEN = Mountens not ridge

The massacre of the tribes by the soldiers at the beginning of Kieft's War, as described in De Vries' journal and in an anonymous pamphlet later circulated in the Dutch Republic, was horribly sadistic and gruesome. (Shorto says atrocities were probably exagerrated for anti-Kieft political purposes in the pamphlet.)

The pamphlet referred to an event known in history as "The Council of Blood."

The massacre, according to Shorto, brought about something that would not have been possible before: the unification of area tribes into a confederation, "one aimed at slaughtering Europeans." The tribes destroyed much of what the settlers in the New Amsterdam area had been building over years of hard labor, forcing some to flee for their lives to Fort Amsterdam.

I can see why, at this point in our book, readers might be thinking no wonder the Dutch were doomed.

Jerry: Did you just download the program? What is the name of it again?

JoanP & Justin: Bergen County is where my husband's ancestors settled, too - what is today Englewood, New Jersey. JoanP: Is that near where your ancestors settled? Maybe you and Bob are distant relatives!!!

Justin mentioned Weehawken earlier. I saw in Wikipedia that "Weehawken was formed as a township by an Act of the New Jersey Legislature on March 15, 1859, from portions of Hoboken and North Bergen." I found an old painting of Weehawken - supposedly the area that is the famous spot in New Jersey, across from Manhattan, where duels took place, including the Burr/Hamilton duel. I believe I read that the body of water is New York Harbor. Or would this be the the Hudson?

We see a great deal of Adriaen van der Donck in Chapter 7. Shorto gives us a most beautiful enthusiastic picture of New York gleaned from van der Donck's writings. Shorto says, "The man simply fell in love with America." Shorto also says Adriaen was "one of the first genuine Americans."

What does Shorto mean by that?

What were some of the assignments van Renssalaer assigned to van der Donck as schout? How did Adriaen handle these tasks?

The waters east of Weehawken are those of the Hudson River however, the waters of the East River and the Hudson as well as the kill Van Kull around Staten Island are all New York Harbor. The entrances are between Sandy Hook and Coney Island.

If Bergen means mountain then the name is appropriate for the area. There was a mountain in Weehawken before the Lincoln Tunnel excavation. Parallel to the mountain runs a street named Bergenline Avenue. It runs through Bergen County.

There are also ridges or palisades prominent in the Hoboken, Jersey City area.

Marni have had it for many years name is IRFAN VIEW just Google it it also does some doccuments and so on

The "Night Watch" is a truncated painting. It was cut to fit a change in location. It was the left side that was removed with two figures standing behind the left hand sergeant. The figures are all identifiable but I can't name them all. There are eighteen other than the three officers.

Two of the officers are Banning Cocq and Van Ruytenburgh (in yellow). The position of the third was lifted from a drawing in the manual of arms.

The sergeants are Rombout Kemp on the right and Reijnier on the left. They are each wearing a helmet and are just at the edge of the painting.

The standard bearer is Jan Claesz Visscher. He is back row center in gold and blue.

Gerrit Lunden painted a copy of the Night Watch when it was intact. If someone would like to bring that up we can see clearly what the original looked like. In the dark left hand corner of the Lunden painting one can see a "powder monkey" running along a canal rail. These missing elements help to make the composition a cohesive whole.

Visscher is definitely a New Netherland and Albany name. An old family in that area with several homes attributed to them.

I have been looking for Lunden's painting of "Night Watch" but so far this is all that I have found. Night Watch

Your explanation of the trimming of the art is explained on this site. But when I click on the piece of exposure of the painting, I find that this is a Rembrandt. Hmmmm, I will keep looking.

Have you all seen this 3-D sculpture of the painting?? 3-D Sculpture

Here's the copy which hangs in the Dutch??? National Gallery along the story of Rembrant's ordering Lundens to paint it. Lundens' Night Watch

I saw your question of using ice skates for travel in the Manhatten area and decided to look up the history of skating. After reading one short synopsis on skating, the only reason that I could see for not skating from place to place might be the harshness of the weather and the distance between communities. Then I read another link and it noted that in some countries in Europe, armies were known to travel on ice skates. In the bygone days of yore, I assume. Now they use Hummers. Anyway, here is an article on The Origin of Skating. Enjoy! :<).

The World's Oldest Known Skating Image from a history of skating website. See Ludwine

The actual image of St Ludwine is down the page of this site and the story of her becoming the patron saint of skaters is there also.

Annie - I love those Dutch paintings - a real feel for the Dutch influence - so different from the English!

I feel sooo much better, after reading your post, Marni! I've only read up to, but not including "The Cause." As you say, Klieft's extermination orders indicate that it is all over for the Dutch colony - as they are so outnumbered by the enraged tribes surrounding them. At the end of "Council of Blood" we leave the colony's inhabitants huddled in Fort Amsterdam. I hadn't considered anyone could possibly save them - but I forgot all about van der Donck (where is he at this time?) - and haven't met the one-legged savior who might also turn things around yet either! Hopefully I'll get into "Cause" this afternoon when dinner guests (sons) leave.

I just looked up Newark - because the Newark I've always known has been located in Essex County. The only History I've ever known has referred to the Royal Charter from England. In fact, Newark of the history books begin with the English habitation. No mention of the Achtor Col Plantation (Newark today) of the Dutch Bergen.

"Newark was founded in 1666 by Connecticut Puritans led by Robert Treat, making it the third-oldest major city in the United States, after Boston and New York, though it is not the third-oldest settlement. Newark is the city's second name; previously, it was called Milford, named for Milford, Connecticut, from which many settlers had migrated.[5] The name comes from Newark-on-Trent, a town in England whence some of the original settlers hailed."

Wouldn't it be grand if someday they rewrote the history books the little Jerseyites are reading? Maybe they have!

The name Visscher caught my attention this morning. I've worked on and off for a number of years in DC at the Folger Shakespeare Library. In the gift shop there were wonderful prints of Visscher's London 1616 which I've always admired - have one framed here at home. The etching is invaluable - as you can see it identifies many of the London waterfront buildings in 1616 - before the Great Fire - several fires actually (one in 1632 - and the big one in 1666), changed the landscape. But what an historical representation of what was there before the rebuilding!

I'm curious as to which Visscher did this etching of London. I see it in Shorto's book - the first photo - opposite page 113. It's there because it represents the colony's parent cities of London and Amsterdam.

The only thing I find regarding the engraver of London 1616 is that his name was Claes Visscher or in some places he's identified as Claes Jan Visscher - do you think he's the same person as Jan Claesz Visscher pictured in the Night Watch, Justin?

Now we have two "Claes" - Stephanie - does the name "Claes" have an English equivalent? Claus?

Jerry: I'm going to hunt for that software. Thanks!

Justin & Ann: Thanks for the guard names and images of The Night Watch. I hunted and hunted and finally found a color image of Gerrit Lundens' copy of Rembrandt's Night Watch. However, It's quite small - the painting was much smaller than Rembrandt's original, too. Here's Lundens' copy in color:

I read that only 7 of the men have been identified. The 7 don't include a Leydecker even though Leydeckers is on the plaque. Here's an interesting article about the Dutch civil guards composing the company in the painting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A3709460

Ann: That history of skates info is fascinating! "The first skates were made from the leg bones of large animals. Leather straps were slipped through holes that had been bored at each end of the bone. To this very day the word 'skate' in Dutch is 'schenkel' which means 'leg bone.'" Wow! It's so interesting to see the evolution of sports and sports equipment. Just look at the evolution from roller skates to roller blades in our lifetimes.

Interesting about armies traveling on skates. I saw a World War II program on the History Channel about Norwegian soldiers traveling on skiis.

I just thought of something re skating down the Hudson River on skates or sleds. The Hudson was an estuary and the salt water came way up the river with the high tides. Salt water doesn't freeze as quickly as fresh water. Maybe the frozen water was unstable, making it difficult to count on the river being frozen solid? It probably wasn't totally frozen as you got farther south towards New Amsterdam. Wasn't there something in the news recently that only once in history has New York Harbor frozen over?

Stephanie & JoanP: Wow, interesting about Visscher.

JoanP: Golly, those historians! Grrrr. Goes to show you what Shorto says - Those who win are the ones who write the history.

Claes and Claus? How would the Dutch say Santa Claus? On the internet, it says Dutch for Santa Claus is Sinterklaas.?

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=35

Don't be disheartened, JoanP! Read on!

Justin: Berg - mountain. Of course! Iceberg. I love your story about the NJ mountain and the Lincoln Tunnel - although it's sad to read about how the beauty of nature was erased for progress. Manhattan apparently used to have hills and streams and ponds, even a lake, all flattened or covered up or filled. Reminds me of what happened in Hartford. The Park River used to flow by Mark Twain's property and the capitol. Beautiful, but flooded sometimes. It was covered over and a highway is there today. Sigh.

The Hudson River salt penetration reaches well above the Tappan Zee. The ice comes down to and including Hyde Park and ends somewhere above White Plains. Ice boating on the Hudson at Hyde Park was common in earlier days.

There is one person in the Night Watch I forgot to identify. It is Rembrandt himself. If you will look at Visscher's left shoulder you will see an eye, a cap, and a hint of a nose. THat is the man himself in a limited self portrait.

Fort Orange is 150 miles from the tip of Manhattan. It is a long way to skate and while ice boating is swift it is not for the faint hearted.

So skating on the Hudson would not have been likely. I wonder if they used it for other travel.

Yes, Rembrandt used to paint himself into many of his history paintings, including this one. Even though I've had him painted out to me many times, I still have trouble finding him.

I'm still wondering why the Dutch did not have as much trouble getting enough food as the Virginia colony. This makes me realize that I have no idea what the farmland in Manhattan and nearby would be like. Maybe it had more wild edible plants. Or the Dutch timing was better (the English always seemed to miss planting season). Or better relations with the Indians meant they got more help. Shorto doesn't seem to be interested in such mundane details of how they got food.

Now that we have seen more of Adrian, what do you think of him? Does he look like promising hero material? What are his weaknesses?

Claes... Nicholas of course.. I know the dutch and their shortening of names is really wild. They loved nicknames and because they did not have firm surnames at this point in history, they used all sorts of identifiers.. that translate to John the black one.., or William with the nose, etc. etc. ONe of my far distant had the nickname of John the religious.. because he was the deacon of his church and very very holy.

JOANK, the harbor at New Netherlands was ideally located for trading ships making the Europe, Africa, So. America, No. America, Europe loop. It was profitable to go there, so many more ships did so, which meant more supplies were brought in and available to the Dutch colony. The trip to the Virginia Colony was much less profitable, and fewer ships were willing to make a stop there. Shorto indicates that the Virginia colory got more food/supplies from New Netherlands than they did from Europe. In those early years, the colonies were very heavily dependent on help from Europe.

Learning about Adriaen van der Donck, and his wide-ranging contributions to what America became, is one of the most gratifying rewards of reading this book. As Shorto writes in his prologue: "The colony's legacy revolves around another figure.....Adriaen van der Donck, who has been forgotten by history but who emerges as the hero of the story and who, I think, deserves to be ranked as an early American prophet, a forerunner of the Revolutionary generation.

A glance at the index listings alone makes van der Doncks prominence evident. On pg. 143, Shorto describes him as "..the pivotal figure in the history of the colony, the man who, more than any other, and in ways that have gone unnoticed, mortared together the foundations stones of a great city." He was also apparently the first to use the term 'American' on a routine basis, when referring to those living in the new country.

(I have obviously found a new hero. You'll have to excuse me if I spend a good deal of time talking about him.)

Babi

BaBI: I'm excited you feel that way about Adriaen van der Donck! Me, too! From his description in Chapter 7 "The Cause" he seems like a movie hero. I can picture him in Renssalaerswyck, an energetic intelligent 22-year-old, in his Cavalier clothing, in constant motion, marveling over the new land and its native inhabitants, not afraid of anything, tearing around taking notes of everything in his journal, quickly getting the lay of the land.

He's "willful, righteous, insistent, arrogant, hot-tempered, headstrong." He even fought a DUEL!!

Van der Donck quickly learns that his boss, patroon van Renssalaer, is only concerned with his profits. But Adriaen is concerned with JUSTICE. I can see van der Donck is going to protect the underdog and fight for the rights of man. Yay!!!

Our hero! What struck me was that he sounds like an early Thomas Jefferson. What with his recording all of the flora and fauna that he observed plus the quality of the different soils. And, now, he is coming to an attempted rescue of New Amsterdam. Well, isn't this what the 1776 group was trying to do for the 13 states that had formed? So, seeds of freedom were planted early in the New Amsterdam soil!

JoanK; Look in the area between the standard bearer and the man in the helmet. He is above the left shoulder of the standard bearer and the overlapped shoulder of the helmet wearer.

Ann! You're right! Our first Founding Father! Van der Donck and Jefferson probably would have had a great time talking together. I somehow can't picture Jefferson living with the Indians out in the woods and learning their language sitting around a fire, though.

Thank goodness, these men kept journals - Adriaen van der Donck, van den Bogaert, and others. Imagine how many kept journals that were lost. Only recently did it come to light that the translation of van der Donck's journal was missing important sections. Look at how much we would not know if not for the journals.

I wonder why they kept the journals? Do you think they knew they would go down in posterity? That the world would be reading them?

STEPHANIE: it must be fun to know that kind of thing about your ancestors. Mmmm, I wonder if they gave me a nickname, what it would be? Maybe I don’t want to know.

BABI: of course. Now that you explain it, it makes all kind of sense. In England, the Virginia colony’s supporters had all kinds of trouble raising money to send ships: they knew it wouldn’t be profitable.

Yes, we have a new hero. How exciting! Maybe we should think about starting to cast the movie. Who do you think?

I'm glad van der Donck kept those journals too - but Ann asks an interesting question - why did he keep them? Did he write them for posterity? I think it was more than that.

Was he taking notes for the founding of his own colony someday? Maybe. Shorto writes that he kept notebooks for 14 years. When you read about some of the things he wrote about, you have to agree with Shorto, I think. "The man simply fell in love with America."

Weren't you surprised at the number of crops he listed - blueberries, strawberries, yes - but artichokes? Watermelon? Were these growing wild in the region at this time? What happened to them?

He was deeply interested in the "Americans" - not as savages, but as human beings with a strong moral sense of right and wrong. He learned their their culture, enough of their languages to analyze and communicate. He admired their popular form of government. He saw the importance of schooling for the children. It's all there in the Description of New Netherland. I think the reason he kept his journal of the region for fourteen years was that he regarded this land his home, these Americans his neighbors.

The one thing that I don't understand is how Shorto can describe the patient man who took the time to get to know an write about this new land as "arrogant, willful, righteous, and hot-tempered."

Hmmm, I don't know who could play the part of this quiet patient man who is also hot-tempered, - and still be believable, JoanK. Tom Hanks?

JoanP: Patient yet hot-tempered. Yep. That sounds like our hero. I think he could certainly have had all of those characteristics. He was only 22 years old - very young, yet far along the path to maturity. Definitely makes for a movie role!

I vote for Heath Ledger (Australian actor starring in The Patriot, Brokeback Mountain, The Four Feathers, Casanova....)

-----------------------------------------------

Wow, speaking of a comparison between van der Donck and Jefferson....Look at THE CAUSE. Look at what Adriaen took on for his fight:

TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION

Kieft ran out of money from his Indian war and decided to tax the colony to raise money - taxation on beaver and....OH, NO....BEER!

He pretended to be democratic for a bit - called together a new council of representatives. But he didn't let them have a voice. He just did what he wanted.

Adriaen van der Donck to the rescue. He was the LAWMAN. He was the only one (other than Kieft's secretary) who could write Latin and legalese. He alone could create a concise petition to the Dutch East India Co. "crisply laying out a history of the colony's troubles" under a one-man military dictatorship and boldly requesting a different system - one of self-government.

The colonists had to smuggle the petition out of the colony and onto a ship headed to the Netherlands.

What was the reaction of the Dutch East India Co. when they received the petition?

Well, they certainly didn't respond to van der Donck's rhetoric demanding representative government, though they agreed Krieft had to go. No, they decided that what was needed was a strong governor who knew how to use force to keep the colonists in line. They began a search for a "skilled diplomat." I was surprised at this. It almost sounds like they were describing van der Donck, but he's part of the problem over in the colony, not the strong governor they hope to send over.

Just for the heck of it, I went to Amazon and look what I found! Description of New Netherlands $14.99

I've been gone for a bit. Did anyone put up this link? lots of Rembrandt paintings and they are wonderful.

http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt.html

Claire

JoanP!!!!! Excellent! Are you going to buy it? I wonder if it is the new version.

You inspired me to hunt, Joan. I just found that the book is also in our library system (must be ordered). It is also available online, for those who don't mind reading on the computer, here:

A Description of the New Netherlands

We can add it to our links in our Header above.

By the way, that "American Journeys" site is wonderful. It has all kinds of "eyewitness accounts" of early American exploration and settlement - such as writings by Lewis and Clark.

I am not yet a proponent of Adrian.. He strikes me still as an opportunist. He seems to have always been in the front line for favors with strong men and then later deciding he knew better. Van Renssalaer might have been an absentee landlord, he did in fact send over extremely competent people to settle his farms. He was careful to find blacksmiths and coopersmiths and all sorts of skilled trades. I think Adrian was a politician and wanted some liberties that are not yet prevalent and any country. That was good. But since Jefferson has always been my personal hero, no, I dont see why they are much alike.

JOAN P, perhaps instead of 'patient', a better word for Van Donck's journalistic work would be 'disciplined'. He was educated and trained in an era where careful observation and recording was the key to scientific knowledge. Whatever the subject, the scientific mind kept meticulous records, with sketches.

Your point is reasonable, STEPHANIE, yet I still see a strong-minded man with clear and definite ideas and goals. And, he is a lawyer. A lawyer can represent anyone in one matter, yet still oppose him in another. He was not open with Stuyvesant about his ideas and goals, but that would be a sensible precaution with someone who strongly opposes those ideas and goals. The citizen's council was not yet in a position to take action.

Van Donck assisted Stuyvesant where his help was needed for the good of the colony, and did so cheerfully. Certainly he was a politician, and a very skilled one. But I see him as something exceeding the common definition and expectation of 'lawyer' and 'politician'. He was, IMO, a Statesman of very high caliber.

Babi

I think that VanderDonck wanted to keep a well ordered community as well as orderly, methodical notes. He was very disciplined. He sounded like a regular John Audobonas he observed and recorded the "wild geese, turkeys and deer at their best in this season..." He marveled at the landscapes and was diligent in his writings, as he noted the contours "of the land." Where would we be today without methodical record keeping? I admire that alone in a man. Like Darwin, he classified and analyzed his new land.

Stephanie: I see Adriaen strikes you as an opportunist and a politician. I think he is, too. However, I don't see that as a bad thing. Many great men and women were opportunists and politicians. He was ambitious and was quick to figure out who could help him move up. But he also seems like an idealist to me and an individualist.

I was thinking about where he had just come from - the intellectual atmosphere of a large university in the center of huge change in Europe. Doesn't it always seem that university students get involved in revolutions and rallies? I think young people tend to be idealistic and don't necessarily see all the dangers around them. They can get swept up in radical ideas and the romance of big changes. Maybe that was happening to young van der Donck. He took on a lot.

It certainly does seem that van Renssalaer managed his vast new world estate extremely well considering he stayed in Europe. He did hire good people. But the business of him buying the land that van der Donck was arranging to buy really rubbed me the wrong way. Van Renssalaer cut the deal right out from under Adriaen. Yes, van Renssalaer was quite the businessman, but sounds pretty cut-throat to me. Of course, we're seeing the story through the eyes of Shorto who obviously is very taken with van der Donck.

Babi: Yes - disciplined. Good choice! I enjoyed your sentence "He was a Statesman of very high caliber."

Alf: You and Babi bring up AvdD's careful scientific observation, recording, classifying, analyzing, and his discipline. Audubon - what a great comparison in their method! Now Audubon I can definitely see out there in the woods communing with nature and gabbing with the Indians around a fire - PLAYING CARDS! (I had to laugh when I saw that about AvdD.)

Babi brought up Pieter Stuyvesant whom we meet in Chapter 8 "The One-Legged Man."

What is your take on Stuyvesant? Does he have the characteristics the Dutch East India Co. was looking for in a colony director - "a committed company man, a true leader, an administrator, a skillful diplomat, a man of nerve and grit and guile, unafraid of pain - a boss"?

It might be interesting to read what another source says about Stuyvesant; the same portrait in color is included:

Stuyvesant

I've been really busy and didn't have time to keep up w/ the reading, so i dropped out of the discussion......Joan, I don't know if anyone answered your question about the Germans calling themselves Dutch, or being called Dutch - i haven't read all the postings - but the confusion is w/ the German word for "German" being Deutsch and "Americans" not making the distinction made it "Dutch.".......jean

MABEL: thanks for clearing that up. Deutch became Dutch: makes sense to me.

I hope you can keep up with the postings. Several people are following the discussion without reading the book.

MIPPY: an interesting link. The link mentions the question of whether Jews should be admitted as citizens to the colony. A friend had told me that both Minuit and Stuyvesant were opposed to admitting them. Here is the information on Stuyvesant:

JEWS IN NEW AMSTERDAM

He wrote to Holland advising that Jews not be admitted, but the West India Company overruled him.

I'll be back with what I can find about Minuit.

I can't find anything on Google about Peter Minuit not allowing Jews, although the first colony of Jews arrived after he had left. So I owe him an apology.

Jean: The language of the Netherlands is and was low German (Deutch) and Walloon. Your observation about Americans mispronouncing Deutch as Dutch has the sound of truth. That makes Shorto's work "The Deutch of Manhattan."

I remember my mother using DUTCH UNCLE does that make sense to anyone. Maybe I should as google. just did

"counselor who admonishes frankly and sternly ".

she meant it as an affectionate critisizm. her background five generations American from German Jewish. so some of these sayings probably went back a long way.

I loved the Dutch Uncle remark. Knew people who always seemed to have a lot of say about what you did., but then I grew up surrounded by Aunts and Uncle s in a teeny tiny community.

Shorto touched on the issue of Stuyvesant and the Jews in his Prologue. I extracted the following summation of Stuyvesant:

"Stuyvesant comes across as full-blooded and complex: a genuine tyrant, a doting father and husband; a statesman who exhibits steel nerves and bold military intuition while holding almost no cards and being surrounded by enemies. ....a man who abhors unfairmess, but who, with he harshness of a hard-line Calvinist minister's son, tries to block Jews from settling in New Amsterdam. He is a tragic figure, undone by his own best quality, his steadfastness."

I was especially intrigued by that last statement, and am wondering how Stuyvesants 'steadfastness' caused his downfall. I'll be alert for that as I read.

Babi

I love the "Dutch uncle" too. I've known a few (even though I grew up far from my real uncles.

BABI: I missed that in the prologue. I think we'll begin to see what Shorto means in the next section.

Although Shorto began Peter Stuyvesant's brief biography by describing his "piggish face," (not very flattering) I was very impressed with Stuyvesant in Chapter 8.

Apparently not a student, albeit son of a minister, and perhaps kicked out of school for fooling around with his landlord's daughter?, he went to work at the lowest level for the Dutch East India Co. where he might make something of himself. And he did.

He was rapidly promoted until he won the position of commander of Dutch political and military operations in the Caribbean - no small thing. It seems he was hardy, brave, efficient, a charismatic leader with a following of men, had organizational skills, and was plugged into the communication network. He could withstand pain and he had grit. Look how he endured the gruesome hardship and pain of his terrible wound and loss of his leg. He was lucky to have survived his amputation.

What did you think of the relationship Shorto described between Stuyvesant and his admirer, John Farret?

Just to let you know that I am following along with all this, tho not reading the book. I think this is better. I love everyone's "take" on the different characters. Julie

Welcome, Julie! Glad you're enjoying the discussion. Perhaps we'll inspire you to read the book, too! It's fascinating!

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Well, we've completed Week 3 - 1/2 way through our discussion. Tomorrow we'll move on to discuss Chapters 9, 10, and 11. (See "Complete Discussion Schedule" in the Header above for entire schedule.)

Easter weekend is coming up and a number of us may be busy. I'll continue to participate all weekend although I will be in and out Sat. and Sun.

How do you think we're doing? Is this pace working for everyone? Is this method of posting questions comfortable for you?

Meanwhile, I'll post a few questions to think about for Chapter 9.

Change is in the wind. Peter Stuyvesant has arrived in New Amsterdam. JoanK has provided us with information revealing an anti-Semitic Stuyvesant. What else will we find out about him?

- When Stuyvesant arrived in New Amsterdam, in what state did he find the colony? How did he establish his presence? What changes did he make in running the colony?

- Why did Stuyvesant keep Cornelis van Tienhoven on as his secretary?

- What two major forces in the Dutch Republic and in New Amsterdam were pitted squarely against one another in the face-off between Stuyvesant and members of the community who were evolving into a political party?

- What was the relationship between Stuyvesant and van der Donck?

I agree with you marni. I always found Styversant an intesting guy. I have an unrelated question and I bet someone knows the answer. I see names such as Peekskill, Catskill, and Fishkill. What does the suffix "kill" mean??

I still admire Stuyvesant. He lost his cool, but I can really see why. By the way, the terribly misspelled de truy, the court messenger is actually my ancestor, Phillippe Du Trieux, which has transformed over the years to Truax. Phillippe came from Robaix, France, born say 1586,died between 1649-53 and was married twice. He came to New Netherlands as an original settler on the New Netherland in 1624 with his second wife and his children. Ther is some evidence that before coming here, he was a worsted-dyer ( sounds like clothing somehow). I have four separate descent lines through this family and have a lot of information. His daughter from his first marriage was a real pip.. She was married several times, but before the marriages, had a baby girl, proceeded into church after the birth , marched up the aisle and presented the father ( who was married at the time) with the baby and left.. Whew.. Can you imagine. I love the mental picture.

SUEC, I seem to remember 'kill' being identified as a stream or river. I could be wrong. If so, I'm sure someone will know.

Before we leave the one-legged man, I do want to say what a grin I got on learning the story of JENNY GEDDES, who threw a stool at the dean of St. Giles Cathedral, and inaugurated the English Civil War. Why did I never hear about Jenny in my high school history?

We also see in this section some examples of Shorto's more flippant attitudes. Of the English Puritans he wrote that they "developed, along with their minimalist fashion statement, a belief that England was the New Israel.the place that God had anointed as the great bulwark against the Pope and his swaggering red-robed henchmen". Shorto enjoys his own tongue in cheek humor, I'm sure.

Babi

Suec & Babi: Thanks, Babi, for the meaning of "kill."

Babi: That WAS a fun story about Jenny. I love Shorto's humor and enthusiasm. It has made this history come alive for me.

Stephanie! What a fabulous story about your ancestor Truax's daughter and her baby! What a gal! Wow! It's like some of the stories Shorto provided in our book! This is so fascinating to hear about your family in those early days. Do you have more stories to share about them?

I admire Stuyvesant in many ways, too. I had not known much about him before. He is no angel. He has many faults. But....maybe we should try to list some of his good qualities. We could compare pros and cons about him?

Can someone start us off with a list of his redeeming characteristics as a man and as a leader?

Let's see, Marni - he has "true grit" - à la John Wayne!

Shorto has done much research - and he has written an engaging book, but for the reasons you've just presented, Babi - I don't see him as objective as I expect an historian to be. I must confess some irritation at his "flippancy" as you describe it. These were hard times for many people, in the Old World and the New. I'm sure no one took them lightly.

He does know how to build interest and tension though. I've caught up to the gathering on the pier, awaiting the arrival of the new one-legged governor. I found myself staring on his photo included in the book last night - the same one Shorto must have seen (were there others?) to conclude that he had a "piggish" face - "voluptuous lips" - "a thick neck" - in short, quite a homely man. Add to that, his peg leg - Shorto has prepared us, the waiting crowd on the pier to form an unfavorable first impression of the man.

I was interested to see van der Donck here - in a celebratory mood, regarding this as the day of delivery - from Krieft. Surely he knows that his impassioned request for representative government has been denied. Does he know that P.S. has been sent to put the colonists in their place, under his control - van der Donck included? I'm breathlessly waiting to see how these two quite different men will get along. Maybe they will. Peter S. got along famously with his lawyer friend, John Farret, didn't he?

ps. We are still waiting for the new Pearson baby to put in his/her appearance and then take off at the drop of a hat to get to Memphis. If he/she doesn't arrive by Sunday pm - these grandparents are going down there to see what's holding things up.

pps. Thanks for the Sprechen-sie Deutch comment, Mabel - it explains why my own Alsacian grandma used to refer to her family as "Dutch."

JoanP: What an interesting point you raise about Shorto's objectivity. Is it his tone or his facts that make you wonder? He certainly does have his point of view of things and people.

I've been noticing something in non-fiction lately. It seems that writers are using a different tone than in the past - perhaps not as "flippant" as Shorto, but something different. Something more current and fun and lively. Including information and stories about events and people that bring them more alive, make them more fascinating and real. Like Stephanie's story about her ancestor.

Maybe it's just me. But history books and biographies used to seem so dry and dull. And now they are more fun.

What do the rest of you think? And do you agree with JoanP that Shorto is not as objective as a historian is expected to be?

OK, JoanP started off our list about Stuyvesant. I'll see if Patwest can keep track in our Header above.

true grit

Stuyvesant appears to have been something of a rebel when young.
He didn't follow his father into a career in the church (p. 148) and left home.

Our author assumes the remarriage of his father was the cause, but who can say? He assumes that "teenaged sons tend to react strongly to such things ..." But that may be imposing modern thought-patterns on Stuyvesant. Perhaps he hated his father? Perhaps he abhorred the thought of a church career? I'd prefer less guess work by Shoto.

To sum up: one characteristic was a tendency to move on to new, unexplored career alternatives.
To take chances

Oh, good. Mippy added another one - To take chances.

Interesting remarks, Mippy, about the possibilities of the relationship with his father. Shorto DOES make a lot of guesses, doesn't he! Too many, do you think?

This makes me think of Shorto's description of the relationship between Stuyvesant and van der Donck. Doesn't it seem he is suggesting a sort of father/son relationship between them - at least, at first?

Of course, on the other hand, we also see the side of AvdD in which he nurtures relationships with important people to help advance his goals.

--------------------------------------------

JoanP mentioned the close relationship between Stuyvesant and John Farret. Shorto says the letters between the two, which were saved by Farret, were discovered in 1926. Shorto suggests a latent homosexuality in the wording.

This is another thing I'm seeing more in recent histories and biographies - the suggestion that particular historical figures were homosexuals. For instance, in the Ron Chertow bio of Alexander Hamilton, Chertow suggests that there was a homosexual relationship between Hamilton and his good friend, John Laurens, because of the nature of letters between them. Another bio I read about John Paul Jones (sorry, I forget the title) suggested he had homosexual relations with a man aboard ship.

I wonder if some of this is a misinterpretation of the types of letters men who were close wrote to each other in the past - expressing themselves in a more flowery way than men might do today - more unafraid to express emotion?

I'm off to the bank and to buy eggs. I will be dying Easter eggs tomorrow night.

I,too notice the more interesting writing of the history authors of today. I was blessed in high school with a num who loved history and seemed to know many side stories of the subject she was trying to teach to us. Her love of world history and her non-use of the book most of the time caught me in her net and I have been a lover of history ever since. I do like Shorto's presentation of this short history of the Dutch and West Indian Co's founding of the NYC port. Their outpost has addes to much of our shipping history in that area.

I would love to take the walking trip down to that area that JoanP gave us a link to and will do so when we get there again with SN in 2008. When Shorto mentions P.S. walk down Pearl St to the fort, I had to go back to JoanP's link just to picture it again.

Ann: You were lucky to have a good history teacher.

Speaking of the streets of New York, be sure to take a peek at the map of New Amsterdam in the lower right-hand corner of our Header above. Click on the icon to see a larger view of the streets and Fort Amsterdam.

We also have a new map that Patwest has added for us. The middle map along the bottom of our Header above. It's the famous Jansson-Visscher Map mentioned in our book - a map of the early northeast America with Dutch names. It was used for many years and is one reason why a number of areas kept their Dutch names. Click on the icon and you will see 2 maps, one for viewing with a zoom, and the other to select what you wish to view. (There are directions above the 2 maps.)

STEPHANIE: another interesting ancestor. And what a daughter! Are you descended from her?

Stuyvesant is interesting. It looks like Shorto is setting him as the villain here. He will probably need you to defend him.

BABI: WHY HAVEN’T WE HEARD OF Jenny Geddes, indeed. I believe history teaching has gotten a lot better since I was in school. Then it managed to make everything boring! Just a long list of dates and names of battles and kings (or presidents) with nothing to make you care. ANN, you don’t know how lucky you were. It took me years to realize that history was actually interesting.

I like the picture of the puritans making a “minimalist fashion statement”. Later, he refers to an incident where an ambassador from the then Commonwealth England, dressed in plain black sits with the ambassadors of other nations who regard themselves as “ambassador peacocks”, part of whose function was to show off the wealth of their nation by their dress.

I wonder what Shorto’s own fashion statements look like?

JOANP: I have the same questions about Shorto’s objectivity. We’ve caught him in a couple of small errors, but it’s not that. The writing is somehow very much that of a reporter who wants to make a good story. I feel we will get “good guys” and “bad guys”, whether there were any or not. He seems to think if he throws in a sentence somewhere, listing their good qualities (as he’s done with the Pilgrims and Puritans) that he can let his obvious bias against them hang out.

Is he doing the same with Stuyvesant?

The parallels between S’s relationship with his father, and other relationships are interesting. I agree with JoanP that we can’t assume his letters with Farret imply homosexuality, without knowing more about how men customarily wrote to one another. I know it was usual for women to write in terms that today would imply something sexual; I don’t know if the same is true for men.

But they do imply an unequal, even fawning, relationship of Farret to S. And it may well be that that is the relationship he expected to have with young Van der Donck. And perhaps vdD was willing to fawn, until it didn’t suit his perposes anymore. VdD seems well able and willing to play a double game here, assistant S while leading S’s opposition.

As we see how S handled the colonists, it seems clear that his belief in strong heirarchical relationships is very much a part of his character.This is his weakness, but also a strength. The colony was apparently in disarray, and S did seem able to get a lot of things done quickly.

Those who have read on to S's early days, what do you think of his ideas about power?

With all the babbling I did above, I never really listed S's positive attributes. I guess:

efficiency decisiveness

I once decided to read all sorts of books that were actual letters between at least one famous person and others.. My opinion is that in earlier times, men and women wrote to others of the same sex with a warmth that we simply do not see any more. I suspect that the accusations of homosexuality are simply misreadings of affectionate letters. Remember last year or so, when they rolled out all sorts of Abe Lincoln stuff to prove he was in love with a good male friend.. Piffle... Just got one of my genealogy newsletters and there is a remark in there by Charles Gehring. He participates in most of the New York and Dutch Colonies web discussions.. I laughed when I saw his note. He is a stickler for correct languages and was correcting a writer who had writtten an den Eick, when it needed to be en Gen Eick.. So I wondor how he feels about Shorto Yes, I descend twice through Maria Truax.. Both times through her second husband. Jan Peeck.. The two of them spent a good deal of time in court back then.. They ran a tavern, fed the Indians liquor and generally made scenes about almost everything.

I thought Shorto did a fair listing of Stuyvesant's good qualities and shortcomings in the prologue. (posted earlier) But he is quite evidently a writer as well as an historian, and he wants his book to be read! He is including the sort of stories and observations that have amused us so well and held our interest. Fine with me. I think in general we are able to recognize where his observations are less than impartial.

Shorto notes that Stuyvesant would have been shocked, and quite reasonably, by the situation at New Netherlands. His previous experience with the Dutch company's colonies was control by military dictatorship. The colonists in New Netherlands were not at all disposed to be dictated to, which in Calvinist terms was nothing short of sinful disrespect for authority. Stuyvesant was accustomed to being obeyed, and took anything less quite personally as disrespect and 'mutiny'.

This attitude on the part of these colonists is apparently something new in history. Shorto writes; "..the little community on Manhattan represented one of the earliest expressions of modern political impulses:an insistence by the members of the community that they play a role in their own government."

Flexibility to change was not one of Stuyvesant's strong points.

Babi

Hahaha! Flexibility was NOTone of S.'s strong points, for sure. Did that come from his strong Calvinist upbringing? Probably.

Yes, warmth and affection between men back then was through their correspondence. Today, the only affection we see between men is on the sports field with hugs and pats on the bottom a common exchange.

In reading about S.'s beginning his leadership of the folk on the island, I liked his straight forward approach to meeting with the leaders of the other colonies to make some kind of treaties or agreements concerning their borders and trading practices. And, then he goes to the south, in hopes of doing the same thing. Very practical, IMHO.

Oh, good, Patwest listed several of our Chapter 9 questions in the Header.

Babi: Ah, inflexibility, a negative quality. You pointed out that Stuyvesant was used to control by military dictatorship from his years of experience as commander in the Caribbean. He would have been used to total authority except for commands from his superiors of the Dutch East India Co. And they had expressly given him instructions to get things under tight control in New Netherland. Stuyvesant was a man determined to do his duty.

I wonder how surprised Stuyvesant was when faced with men like Melyn and Kuyter who, with van der Donck's legal assistance, were leading the "conspirators" in the movement for representative government. We do know what his reaction was to them. Calling on the Bible and the Articles of War, Stuyvesant sentenced Cornelis Melyn to be put to death and Jochem Kuyter to be banished and his property confiscated!

Luckily for Melyn, Stuyvesant reduced his sentence to banishment. Melyn and Kuyter, armed with documents probably composed mainly by van der Donck, sailed off to the Dutch Republic to plead their case- with Kieft and 14,000 beaver pelts aboard.

And the ship ran aground and sank off the coast of Wales!

Stephanie: I saw that about Lincoln and his male friend - I think it may have been in Team of Rivals by Goodwin. How interesting that Charles Gehring participates in newsletters and web discussions that you are involved with. That is particularly exciting now that we all know the intense work he has done for all of us.

Ann brought up another side of Stuyvesant - his straight forward approach to meeting with the leaders of the other colonies to make treaties or agreements concerning their borders and trading practices. Stuyvesant was quite a networker. I thought this was a great idea.

There were quite a number of other thriving colonies now - Massachusetts Bay Colony, Connecticut Colony, New Haven, New Plymouth, New Sweden, New France, Virginia... And some were moving in on New Netherland.

Did Stuyvesant reach out to work with the colony of New Sweden on the Delaware River the same way he reached out to Massachusetts Bay, Connecticut, and New Haven?

Speaking of Shorto's “minimalist fashion statement,” I coincidentally saw the film "The Scarlet Letter" yesterday on TV. Not the greatest movie and they changed the story, but WOW they did a great job with the Puritan clothing and housing. It took place in approx. 1666 in "the city on the hill" (it became Boston) in the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Gives you a good feel for the times and intolerance in the Puritan colony.

In Chapter 9 we see that Peter Stuyvesant, in his negotiations, sent a letter to John Winthrop, Sr., the first governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, the man who founded the colony and who named it "the city on the hill." He was obviously an extremely important man in the Puritan community - not to be confused with his son, John Winthrop, Jr. Here's a painting of John Winthrop, Sr., supposedly painted by van Dyke:

Here's a brief article about Winthrop, Sr. plus links to info about him and to some of his writings: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~dav4is/people/WINT36.htm

Not a bad portrait. I didn't think he looked like a pig but what a big honker he had.

Ann: I may be misunderstanding you. The portrait above in post #591 is that of John Winthrop, Sr. We do have a portrait of Stuyvesant in our book and someone posted his portrait earlier. Is that the one you're referring to?

Stephanie: What did you think of that battle for political jurisdiction between Stuyvesant and the Rensselaerswyck director, Brant van Slichtenhorst, at the end of chapter 9?

I'm laughing to myself. You know, it's really a mouthful trying to say several of the Dutch names right in a row! Like Brant van Slichtenhorst. Some of the names are so long!

It makes me think of how my last name (my married name) has been mutilated in the years since I got married. My name - Lydecker - isn't even very long. People are forever calling me "Mrs. Liondecker." I think the worst it was ever murdered was "Mrs. Linenpuker."

JOANK: Mrs. Linenpuker? Good grief!

STEPHANIE: What fun ancestors you have. You seem to have inherited their spirit, though not their trouble-making ability.

The plot is definitely thickening!

I agree with those that feel Shorto is sloppy and exaggerates. But one of Shorto's strengths for me is that he presents what's going on in America in a context of what is happening in Europe. I confess, I tend to think of American history as separate.

I am struck by the parallel between the conflict in New Amsterdam and the earlier conflict in England. Charles I had dissolved parliament when they refused to do what he wanted, believed firmly in his absolute authority, and refused to recognize or understand the demands of his people for a voice in government. He said something like: the people have the freedom to be governed. Even on his way to being beheaded, he reiterated his belief in the Divine Right of Kings.

We have the same clash of basic ideas in the New World. Stuyvesant is presented at being indignant at the idea that the people had the right to depose their leader. He calls counsels, and disbands them when they don't agree with him. He wants to solve the problem by getting rid of those who dared oppose their leader.

The basis of his power is different from that of Kings, but the result is the same, in his mind

I wonder where else this clash of these two views of power was being played out in that period.

I'm so glad JoanK brought up the conflict going on in England and the importance of world events. The English Civil War had a great impact on America at the time of our story.

Simply put, in Great Britain the Royalists, or Cavaliers, were fighting the Roundheads; the King was fighting Parliament; Catholics were fighting Puritans. People had to choose sides. King Charles surrendered in May, 1646. He was beheaded Jan. 30, 1649. England became a Commonwealth. Puritan Oliver Cromwell ruled as Lord Protectorate from 1653 to 1658. The Restoration of the monarchy under King Charles II began in 1660.

Consider the dates and events. How might this giant upheaval in England impact the English colonies in America? How might the Commonwealth, under Puritan Lord Protectorate, and then the Restoration impact Puritan New England? The Dutch colony?

We'll hear more about these events from Shorto as we move along.

For more information about the English Civil War and Oliver Cromwell, plus a timeline of events:

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Civil_War/civilwarmain.htm

Marni was that Slydecker LOL

JoanK: Linenpuker! Surely you jest.

JUSTIN: not my jest. Marni's.

MARNI: yes, but I was not talking about the religious groups involved, but the fact that the war was framed as a clash between a central authority whose decisions were not to be questioned, and the idea of citizen participation in government (through a Parliament in England, counsels in New Amsterdam).

Which reminds me: those of us who have been drinking cocoa on this journey had better be careful. The centers of seditious thought in London at that time were -- the cocoa houses!! Cocoa was relatively new, and cocoa houses were popular places for men to gather and discuss politics.

MARNI, I am going to give you a name engraved forever in my memory. This man was a guest on TV back when I was about 18, claiming the longest name in the world. No one showed up to contradict him.

The name was 'Wolfensteinhausenbergerendorf'. (He shortened it to Wolfe!)

Babi

Van Slichtenhorst. A very very influential man in the founding of Albany-Schenectady. He came to stay. His daughter married one of my earliest ancestors and the whole family became settlers. All I have ever read about Brant indicates that the renters ( and everyone up there was a renter at first) felt him fair and honest. He had a much bigger influence than Van Den Donck in the upstate area. Talk about a dictator. Winthrop was a narrow bigoted man who drove out all religious dissent in his area. His son was a bit easier to deal with. The dutch always had the right of religion. Again I find Van Den Donck on the side of Stuyvesant, not settlers. Van Den Bogart left a large family and has many many descendents today.. Mostly called Van Der Bogart, but still descendents.

I'm off and running down to New London to bring my parents Easter eggs. Will check in tonight.

Marni

BABI: HOW AMAZING! Can you imagine the kids trying to learn to spell their names. I'm glad he shortened it.

STEPHANIE: yes, our Adrian seems to be a bit of a slippery character. Perhaps not the straightforward advocate of liberty that Shorto presents.

MARNI: wish your parents the best from all of us. Tell them they have a great daughter!

I was referring to the photo in our book of PS.

Off topic again, but did anyone see Jeopardy last night when one of the answers was D'Orange Nassau treaty? Country of treaty? The Netherlands. Another correct answer for me and anyone else in here who watches the show! Yay!

Then, just late this afternoon I see that one of the NY Mets pitchers has the name of Schoeneweis. Wonder if that is Dutch? I will look it up!

Although Shorto may be a bit sloppy, I too am appreciating his telling of what is going on across the Atlantic at the same time of our history here in New Amsterdam and Albany and New England. When I first saw what Van Den Donck was doing, my mind went to our lobbyists, but now, I am seeing another slick politician. Wonder where this will go? Since I was not aware of all this history, I am becoming excited as to what will happen next.

There are two relics of Stuyvesant left in town that I am aware of and a very extensive housing complex on the east side known as Stuyvesant Town. It was built in the early fifties and attracted middle class people. It was built on land that originally was part of the Stuyvesant estate.

The two relics I refer to are his grave in the yard of St Marks in the Bowery Church ( Dutch Reform) and Stuyvesant Lane. Stuyvesant Lane is diagonal and does not conform to the 1811 NYC grid. It was a shortcut path that went from the Bowery to Stuyvesant's manor. The Stuvesant property ran from what is now 4th Ave to the east river and north to 23rd street.The southern boundary was at Cooper Square. The Lane separates the east and west villages.

So many memories.

Scott Schoeneweis is Jewish but I am still researching the name's ethnicity. He is from Long Branch,New Jersey.

Happy Easter to all who celebrate!

Ann: I saw that Jeopardy! It's fun to be able to get the right answers from books we discuss on SeniorNet!

Justin: I was not jesting about the name!!! I have received junk mail with that name!! Do you have pictures of those Stuyvesant relics? I would like to visit that area. Isn't it something how visiting the grave of a founding father or important historic figure can be such an emotional experience? I felt overcome when I visited the graves of Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton. They did so much to help shape America that I couldn't help but feel a sense of pride.

JoanK: I may have to switch from beer to cocoa. I want to stay in the loop! Hmmmmmm.....I do love the taverns, though....and beer!! Probably a lot of financial trading is going on in both places!

Babi: Oh, my gosh, poor thing, to have to write that name. No wonder it was shortened. It looks like that name means something. What's in it? Hmmmm.....wolf?.... house??.....mountain?....??

Stephanie: Another ancestor. Wow, you are related to many influential early settlers. You mentioned what a narrow bigot John Winthrop Sr. was. Many people fled from the Massachusetts Bay Colony because of its intolerance. You also mention Winthrop's son was easier to deal with. John Winthrop Jr. was also a very important man - someone we see quite a bit in our book - one of Stuyvesant's adversaries.

John Winthrop, Jr. founded New London, CT, at the mouth of the Thames River, the town I grew up in. He also founded Saybrook, CT, at the mouth of the Connecticut River. John, Jr. was a lawyer (went to Trinity College in Dublin), a scientist, a physician, a botanist, a member of the Royal Society of London, kind of a man for all seasons. He was the first governor of Connecticut. Quite a guy.

He commissioned a mill in New London in 1650. It is still there, a national historic site. I took a picture of it for you down in New London. I practically cried when I saw it because it's stuck under the Gold Star Memorial Bridge and the town is letting it fall apart. Here's the mill:

Here's an article about John Winthrop, Jr. We'll hear more about him from Shorto as we move forward. A most interesting historical character.

http://www.cslib.org/gov/winthropj.htm

Another very interesting person. This age was full of them, it seems.

Three hundred and fifty years separate the mill and the bridge. The architectural contrast between yesterday and today is well expressed in this picture. A similar contrast is made in San Francisco though the time difference is substantially less. The row houses of Steiner Street are shown in the foreground while the background is dominated by a modern city skyline.New London is very foolish not to exploit this wonderful old mill. Some folks are very short sighted.

I quote 4.8.07

"The two books that Russell Shorto wrote before publishing his best-selling "Island at the Center of the World" were religious explorations: one about the search for the historical Jesus (Gospel Truth), the other about psychiatry nd religion "Saints and Madmen">) Shorto, a contributing writer for the magazine, is now at work on a book he described last week as "a narrative take on the forces that defined modernity in the past 400 years"-- a book, that will in no small part be about the continuous clash between reason and faith.
That clash is also shaping up as one that will define the papacy of Pope Benedict XVI, whose worries about and efforts to change a pervasively secular Western Europe Shorto writes of in this week's cover article. Reporting the article over several months, Shorts says, deepened his understanding of how different Europeans and Americans are with regard to religion and it also confirmed for him the truth know to so many lapsed Catholics: "You never really leave being Catholic."

This article is full of world-history and questions left unanswered.

How interesting! I wouldn't have thought of Shorto as one to write on such deep and far-reaching topics.

Meanwhile, we left Stuyvesant furious that the New Amsterdamers had questioned the authority of his predecessor, and anxious to punish them. It backfires. What do you think of this drama so far?

Justin: The bridge does strike a stark contrast with the old mill. I was also startled by the Christmas lights strung across the front of the old mill, still up in the spring. I wonder what the New London Puritans would have thought of Christmas lights on their mill?!

Alf: I'm going to have to hunt for Shorto's other books and keep my eyes open for news of his latest work.

Stuyvesant puts up a strong fight to establish the sort of authority and power of command he has been accustomed to. He is, however, dealing with strong-minded, independent settlers led by a highly intelligent man well-trained in the law.

The miraculous survival of Melyn and Kuyter, and their return to New Netherlands is a shock. If Stuyvesant saw the deaths of Melyn and Kuyter as God's justice, how could he regard their survival? They came back with documents from the governing body of DWI revoking Stuyvesants sentence against them and ordering Stuyvesant to appear before them and explain his conduct Stuyvesant was 'trapped' into publicly accepting, and reading aloud, the commands, a scene which Short describes as 'the most humiliating moment of Stuyvesant's life'.

Stuyvesant is losing this battle, and I am sure he doesn't in the least understand why. He has done his duty; those who oppose him are rebellious, and those whom he has faithfully served have turned against him. I think there must have been a great deal of bewilderment mixed in with his anger. In the Calvinist view of divine justice, this is not how things are supposed to work out.

Babi

I am on the road just now, but did want to chime in. I just got my Mayflower quarterly.. They have a long interesting article on Isaac Allerton. Another ancestor of mine. He led a long and complicated life. He was on the Mayflower, fell out with the more religious fraction. then went first to Connecticut and then Long Island. He was again influential in both places and made money ( he was really really good at being a trader). Then he got involved in the Delaware colony and supported them since they had a hard time surviving since Sweden did not support them financially. It gives a whole different slant to the arguments that we have in our book. Gives him more credit than the dutch.. Interesting and I will try and give you the gist when we get home next week.

We have had to postpone our visitors from Oregon and NY for two weeks. My husband is really sick with the flu which leaves one coughing for two weeks plus he is wheezing badly. Am calling the dr this morning and may have to take him in.

I am still reading the book and will comment later.

This long weekend is over. My visits and visitors are gone. Whew! Back to our discussion.

Ann: I hope everyone is soon well.

Stephanie: Enjoy your trip!

Babi: Wasn't that amazing about the survival of Melyn and Kuyter? What a story. Only 21 out of over 100 lived to tell about it. Can you just picture the people hustling along the shore picking up beaver pelts that had washed up from the sunken ship so they could sell them, so valuable.

And imagine the shock and surprise with the appearance of "lost" Melyn and Kuyter back in New Netherland. It must have been like seeing ghosts. No wonder people associated God's justice with miraculous events like that.

Wasn't that quite a scene when Melyn chose his moment - in church, before practically the entire population of New Amsterdam after Stuyvesant had had van der Donck thrown into prison for high treason - just as Stuyvesant was about to speak - Melyn, back from the dead, rushed up to serve a summons to Stuyvesant from the States General!

And Stuyvesant knew what was in Melyn's document - chastising language from those in charge back home ordering him back to Europe "like a misbehaving child" in front of everyone. My gosh! Of course Stuyvesant tried to hush it up! But, "the crowd erupted." I love Shorto's description of the scene, so humiliating for Stuyvesant.

This was lucky timing for van der Donck. High treason was punishable by death.

What was the last straw at this moment - the political scandal that Stuyvesant became embroiled in - that threw him utterly on the defensive? (Chapter 10)

Oh no! I thought I had caught up - and came in to comment on the drowning of Kuyter, Melyn and Kieft all together, the irony of it - only to find they survived! Not only that...well, I'd better get reading again!

I'll just say that though I like and admire Stuyvesant's resolve to bring order to the chaotic colony, I'm not sure what to think of his character - and his methods. Whereas van der Donck's passion and committment to representative government is clear and unwavering I can forgive his toadying to Stuyvesant acting the model son.

Stuyvesant seems to lack feeling, though he seems to have made allowances for John Farrat (was that his name?) - the one who got him to write letters - in verse, even though Stuyvesant was clearly uncomfortable doing that. I can't see van der Donck writing verse to any man if he didn't want to.

I thought it was unbelievable the way Stuyvesant played people one against the other - like when he showed Kieft the letter that resulted in his recall. Of course it filled him with rage and desire for revenge - as Stuyvesant knew it would.

Weren't you shocked to find Kieft still in the colony? I thought "recall" meant he was called back to Amsterdam. And here he is, sitting on Stuyvesant's advisory council!

Stuyvesant was actually relieved when he got word that the Princess Amelia carrying Kieft, Melyn and Kuyter had sunk - now he is free to lead. Or maybe this last comment was simply Shorto's take on what his feelings must have been?

I'd better go see what happened next! It sounds as if Stuyvesant got word of van der Donck's clandestine meetings...I want to like Stuyvesant. I used to travel Stuyvesant Ave. in New Jersey - and was happy at last to learn more about the man! Do you like him? Shorto describes him as "smart, deep, honest - and narrow." It must be the narrow that's bothering me now.

On to Chapter 10 -

I have been meaning to comment on some of negative reactions to Shorto's account of this time in our history. Personally, I am glad that he has written something that anybody could read and enjoy. I might have given up on the book if it had been as dry as some history books. Yes, he might be plumping stories up a bit and he will make mistakes as most historians do, but I am so enjoying his fleshing out of the charactors and what could be boring with nothing but the simple facts. He has turned these hard working folks, the Indians, the West Indies Co. and the administrators into people and happenings that we can picture and have feelings toward. I look forward to reading more everyday and am actually excited about his story telling powers. Well, I'm a sucker for a good story of the "olden days" when I can picture it in my own mind the conditions of this new country that is now our home.

Goodness, ANN. I hope your husband gets better quickly! Those things can hang on forever, as I know from long experience.

Don’t forget the home remedy, if he’s coughing at night and can’t get to sleep. Tell him to run the tap water as hot as he can stand it, gargle and spit out a couple of mouthfuls to get rid of any flem, and drink the rest. The hot water relaxes the throat muscles and breaks the spasm, sometimes for long enough to get to sleep. (He could drink hot tea with lemon and honey, but who wants to stop to make that when they’re coughing their head off. Besides, tea is too hot to drink, so you wait until it’s too cool to help). He can repeat as often as he needs to, doesn’t need to wait for four hours, like cough syrup.

STEPHANIE: I look forward to learning more about Allerton. You are really well connected.

BABI, JOANP: Stuyvesant comes off looking really bad in Shorto’s account. But this is one account, and to Shorto, von Donck is a hero. This makes Stuyvesant a villain. I’d like to hear from those of you who have read other accounts of him.

ANN: I agree. Shorto makes these people and their lives come alive.

JoanP: Although Melyn and Kuyter returned, you were right about Kieft. He did drown when their ship sank. It did seem as though he were hanging around New Amsterdam for quite awhile after he had lost his job and was to return to Europe. And Stuyvesant utilized his services meanwhile. I imagine Kieft was waiting for a ship heading to the right location. It just happened to be one that 2 enemies were on and one that sank, unfortunately for Kieft.

Ann: I'm enjoying Shorto's book as much as you are. To me it is history brought to life. It's fun.

We didn't hear from anyone today about the political scandal that Stuyvesant was caught up in just at the time Melyn made public the summons that Stuyvesant wanted to hush up.

Apparently, Stuyvesant had ordered a case of muskets which he intended to sell to the Indians "to maintain goodwill" and for his personal gain. Residents were not allowed to do this. Firearms were in short supply.

It seems that the furor over this along with everything else pushed Stuyvesant to set van der Donck free. AvdD grabbed his opportunity. He pulled together information he and his colleagues had collected from residents and constructed the Remonstrance of New Netherland. Shorto calls this "perhaps the most famous document to come out of the Manhattan-based colony."

In 1649 AvdD took this and other supporting documentation as a formal petition asking the States General to take charge of the colony. He boarded a ship to Amsterdam, along with colleagues Jacob van Couwenhoven and Jan Evertsen Bout. Also aboard was Cornelis van Tienhoven who was representing Stuyvesant.

You can read van der Donck's "Remonstrance of New Netherland" online here:

Remonstrance

What great event was the Dutch Republic still celebrating when van der Donck arrived in Amsterdam? Here's a clue:

The Ratification of the Treaty of Münster (Gerard Terborch 1648).

The sinking of the ship had terrible consequences because of the records lost. They would have been so valuable to all of us in the actual history of who did what to who. New Netherlands Connection, a newsletter for all of us dutch connected had a list several years ago of the survivors and the testimony involved. Yes I am related to everyone in the Dutch colonies in New York and the Palatine arrivals somewhat later. My one non dutch on my Dads side came in 1850 when my however many times great grand father married a(horrors) English orphan. Who turned out to be a Mayflower descen dent.. My maternal line is all North Carolina and Virgina however.

Why was I not surprised when I learned that he ordered them for selling to the Indians and also to increase his own wealth. Hmmmmm! The beat goes on and on and on!

Marni, I am equally surprised that the citizens of that area haven't restored that mill and called attention to its historical significance. I do love old mills and that one is really a relic to be treasured!

Yes, Steph, it is a shame that all those records went down with the ship that Kleift was on but at least Melyn and Kuyter were able to save themselves and return to the Dutch States and then back to the colony.

Again, on Jeopardy, the Dutch connection!! Two of them! Lets see now, there was a question about Charles II and I forget the other reference but it was there. Are they reading our book?? Should we ask?

JoanK, I had not heard about using just plain hot water for spasmotic coughing but I will suggest it to Ralph. Poor guy has a really weak heart (CHF) and all this coughing is not doing him any good at all. Thanks for the suggestion! I am using a TSP of half vinegar and honey three X a day to kill any bacteria that might try to live in my pipes. Old New England remedy!

In 1648, in the Netherlands and elsewhere, they were overjoyed about the signing of the
Treaty of Westphalia. Here's a link:

Westphalia Treaty

Stephanie! You really are related to everyone in the Dutch colonies! And now to Mayflower families, as well! How fun for you! It is awful to hear about valuable documents (and those 14,000 beaver pelts, poor beavers dying for nothing) being lost to history forever. Thank goodness, the 21 people lived at least.

Ann: My goodness, I hope that old remedy works. That's tough when one can't stop coughing. I was shocked about Stuyvesant selling guns to the Indians, too. I imagine those families that lost their homes and relatives during the Indian wars were particularly perturbed.

Mippy recognized the painting above. Thank you for providing additional info about the Treaty of Westphalia. We can see in your link there are a number of different interpretations of the impact of the treaty. For example the "Traditional realist view" of the importance of the treaty:

"The Peace of Westphalia is crucially important to modern international relations theory, with the Peace often being defined as the beginning of the international system with which the discipline deals."

Shorto says of the treaty that "it was the first time representatives of European nations had come together as separate political entities rather than as units under the umbrella of the Vatican or the Holy Roman Empire, acknowledged one another as sovereign, and tried to work things out on their own. It was the birth of secular politics...."

Shorto says that the signing of the treaty signaled "the ignition of the Golden Age" for the Dutch. This was the end of the 80 Years War. It was the moment that the independence of the United Provinces of the Netherlands, a nation proposing to exist without a monarchy, was recognized by Spain.

I was surprised to see in Chapter 11 that the Dutch States General, their governing body, required a unanimous vote for all decisions, "which made for intense politicking and few resolutions." No wonder!

Adriaen van der Donck would really have to have been prepared in order to get the group to pass his resolution.

What documentation and props did van der Donck provide with his oral presentation in order to persuade the States General to agree to a "suitable municipal government" for New Amsterdam?"

Did he publish anything in Europe to help his cause?

Did his tactics work? Did the States General go for it?

I keep thinking about Stuyvesant selling those guns to the Indians. What an important thing. The Europeans introduced many things into the new world, besides their physical numbers, that up-ended the natives' way of life or eradicated tribes. Some things Europeans introduced had a bigger impact on the Indians than others. Guns were surely one of the most important, along with disease. Here we see that from the very beginning, the white man was providing natives with guns. As long as they had conditioned guns and ammunition, Indians used them on each other.

I've been thinking about 2 books I read last year - the Journals of Lewis and Clark and the Ambrose book Undaunted Courage. Lewis and Clark wrote about results of the sale of guns on the structure of Native American tribal systems over 180 years after the Dutch colony was founded. As white men moved west, their sales of guns continued. I remember reading how Sacajawea's tribe, the Shoshone, had been forced to flee from their traditional life on the plains because their enemy, the Blackfeet, had guns and they didn't. The Shoshone had practically been wiped out by the Blackfeet as a result. Guns were what the Indians wanted from Lewis and Clark the most.

Right now, at this very moment, Ovation is showing an hour long program concerning Rembrandt and "The Night Watch". Hope you can get it in your area!

What did you think of Shorto's comment about Stuyvesant's blunder re. the guns and the Indians. “…he was guilty of violating the politicians first rule: never give the appearance of wrongdoing.” That used to be true, I believe, but I'm not so sure it is anymore. Clinton apparently believed he could ride out the negative reactions, and continue on his merry way.

I had not known before the great significance of the Peace of Westphalia. It signaled the beginning of nationalism and a major shift in power in all of Europe. (I am SO glad I decided to read and discuss this book!)

Shorto also points out the importance of Jan de Groot (Grotius) and his book on the 'Law in War and Peace'. (I think that's a reasonably accurate translation.) It influenced a whole generation of the world's leaders. Who was it said something like..'Never underestimate the power of an idea that has found its time'. The amazing idea of an international body of law that offered a better chance of preserving peace, and offered at least some limitations on the horrors of conducting war. De Groot is another great man I'm glad to know more about.

Babi

ANN: does OVATION have another name? It would probably be broadcast in Prime Time here. But I don't have any cable station of that name.

Now he's selling guns to Indians for his own profit. You know, it irks me to death that the Stuyvesant name is the one every school kid knows about - street names etc. It's a household name if you live in New Jersey. And yet no one ever heard of the better man's name! At least I know now van der Donck is the Jonker in Yonkers!

Good for you, Mippy - how on earth did you identify the painting? I could tell it was the signing of a peace treaty, but didn't understand until I read "American in Europe" the magnitude of the treaty...that would launch the modern era, ending war once and for all. (!)

When reading of the widespread celebrations going on in the Hague...the "brothel binges" and all that, I asked myself how this would affect van der Donck's chances in his quest for change. I thought his chances were good...folks were into self-government and independence.

This chapter is well written, isn't it? I worried that van der Donck in his zeal was presenting too much information - the Remonstrance, the maps, the interrogatories even...and endless footnotes. He presumed he had put forth a convincing argument, forgetting nothing. I worried it was too much. Did you worry when the States General decided to hand it over to a committee? That's usually a bad sign. They were interested, but it needed to go to committee! Then there is the business of Willem of Orange threatening war against his own independent nation to extend his power, bringing the government to a standstill.

Breathlessly we wait for the verdict from the States General. Van der Donck didn't sit around waiting though - he printed up the Remonstrance and promoted settlement in the colonies. What a PR man! Even his own parents and brother's family decided to liquidate and move to the colony! But is it too much to hope that the States General will turn on the West Indies Company that has run the colony since its inception? Stay tuned!

I'm going to read the Remonstrance right now to see just how strongly it is worded...but first will look for Rembrandt - though I'm afraid Annie is on an earlier schedule than the east coast.

This is quite a cliffhanger, isn't it?

Selling guns to the Indians is particularly bad, since the chances are they may eventually be used against the colonists.

I was greatly impressed with the amount of work AvD put into assembling all that information..and writing most of it. You hear now of major law firms keeping smaller rivals 'snowed under' with paperwork, because they have all these associates and clerks working with them. Van Donck was a law firm of one, tho' I'm sure others on his team worked hard too.

When you think about it, getting a unanimous vote wasn't quite the problem with the States General that it would be in today's modern governments. There were only seven provinces, and only one vote per province. Each provincial rep. had this big entourage, however, so plenty of people were available for a 'committee' to review the extensive paperwork.

'Minimalist' government..and it seemed to work quite well. I wouldn't mind seeing our own government trimmed back some.

Babi

Ovation is a cable channel and is all about the arts. Very interesting show about The Night Watch but there were disagreements with what we have learned here about that painting. Such as the names, they only quoted four or five and said their were no more known. And then, they showed the list of names on the panel that was added later by a different artist. The Dutch love their "Night Watch" and consider it one of their icons. It was in HD so extra beautiful and crisp and clear.

Sot weed is tobacco! and Barth wrote that book in 1960. I have never heard of it, has anyone else?

Oh, rats, I didn't get that station, Ann. That show must have been fascinating.

Babi: Van der Donck certainly was right there in the thick of important history. What a time and place! Schooling in Leiden, then back again in Amsterdam just after the Peace of Westphalia. Think of the jubilance in the air. And all the power moves going on.

JoanP: Wasn't it amazing how well-prepared AvdD was at his presentation? All the things he brought with him to show the government! No wonder they had to send him off with a committee to go over everything!

Did you notice how he presented New Netherland in a terrible condition to convince them a change in government style was necessary to allow the colony to continue? He entitled his Remonstrance "The Representation of New Netherland: Concerning Its Location, Productiveness and Poor Condition." Van Tienhoven, on the other hand, representing Peter Stuyvesant, represented the colony in a thriving condition, which was probably much more accurate, per Shorto.

You're right, JoanP, AvdD didn't waste a moment! He rushed off to arrange printing of his Remonstrance in pamphlet form. (Did you have a chance to read it yet?) And he arranged for the engraving and printing of his map. Shorto said, "If Van der Donck had done nothing else, publishing this map would have merited a place in history." The map was later corrected and became known as "the Jansson-Visscher map."

Look! We have the map up in our Header! This is it! Reprinted 31 times between 1650 and the mid-1700's. Shorto says this map would "help permanently afix Dutch names - from Cape May to Lange Eylandt to Roode Eylandt - to much of northeastern America."

The publication of AvdD's Remonstrance and map created an immediate furor. People scrambled to find a ship to make their way to New Netherland for new beginnings. As JoanP pointed out, even van der Donck's mother, father, and brother and his family decided to emigrate there. (Did you notice that his mother and father were legally separated and that his mother was paying alimony? That must have been a story in itself!)

AvdD was very persuasive. Did it work?

In April 1650, the States General committee made its ruling and issued a Provisional Order. They could no longer approve of the "perverse administration of the privileges and benefits granted by charter to the stockholders of the West India Company." They could not neglect the plans and offers submitted. Within New Amsterdam, a municipal government was to be formed. Until it was created, the Board of Nine would have jurisdiction. Money was to be provided for settlers who could not afford passage to the colony. Peter Stuyvesant was to return home and report.

The committee sent Van Couwenhoven and Bout back to New Amsterdam with the rulings, new settlers, and a shipment of guns.

Van der Donck had to stay behind. His work was not done. Now the committee's order had to be adopted by the States General.

And now we are waiting breathlessly

to find out what happens next! Babi pointed out the States General has only 7 provinces, 7 votes - but it must be a unanimous decision.

JoanP: You pointed out that AvdD was called the "Jonkheer" - Dutch for young squire - and his land later became known as Yonkers.

Don't you think that word sounds very much like "Yankee"? I wonder if that's where Yankee came from???

Actually Jonkheer refers to all of the young males.. Not sure why Shorto thought it was Van Den Donck.. Hmm.must check the church records, but this is how they referred to young unmarried males in a lot of church records. Yes, if you are related to one family , especially in Albany and Schenectady, you are almost surely related to most of the families. They had a small population base and intermarried down to second cousins..

I think I read in the book that "jonkheer" meant young squire - not just referring to AvdD, but that the Indians called him that and it stuck. I'll have to find the spot in the book.

I found this re the derivation of "yankee":

"YANKEE - ".Originally, 'Yankee' was 'Jan Kaas,' a disparaging nickname for a Hollander ('Jan' meaning 'John' and 'Kaas' or 'Kees' meaning 'cheese') Later it came to be used as a term for a Dutch freebooter. The Dutch, after coming to America and settling in what is now New York, applied the term to the English who moved into Connecticut. For a while 'Yankee' was used generally in the colonies to apply to any northern neighbor who was disliked, but by the time of the Revolutionary War, the British had come to use it to apply to any colonist. In fact, the song 'Yankee Doodle Dandy' was originally a song of derision sung by British soldiers to mock the poorly clothed colonialists.Novelist John Fenimore Cooper had a different theory.Indians, said Cooper, pronounced 'English' as 'Yengees'.Professor Harold Bender, who contributed his vast and profound scholarship to the great 'Merriam-Webster New International,' Second Edition.(said) 'Often derived, Indian corruption of English, or Anglais, but probably from a D(utch) derivation of 'Jan' as applied by the Dutch of New York to the English of Connecticut." From "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988).

And more theories from a second reference: "The source of 'Yankee' has long been disputed and its origin still uncertain, despite all the research devoted to it. Candidates, among many, have included a slave named Yankee offered for sale in 1725, a Dutch sea captain named Yanky, the Yankos Indians, the Dutch name Janke ('Johnny'), which the Dutch applied to the English, and an Indian mispronunciation ('Yengees') of the word 'English.' The most popular explanation, also unproved, is that Yankee comes from 'Jan Kees,' a contemptuous Flemish and German nickname for the Dutch that the English first applied to the Dutch in the New World. In any case, 'Yankee' seems to have been first applied to Americans by British soldiers serving under General James Wolfe in the French and Indian War prior to 1758. A letter written by Wolfe himself in that year uses the word as a contemptuous nickname for Americans.It wasn't until the Battle of Lexington, the first battle of the Revolution in 1775, that Americans began applying the nickname 'Yankee' to themselves and making it respectable." From "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson (Facts on File, New York, 1997)"

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/7/messages/805.html

Marni Jonkheer is a Lowly title in Holland a bit like a snotty noossed Fella LOL.

Jerry: Is that right!? What do you think it meant used back in the 1600's in New Netherland?

A junker was a member of the Prussian landed aristocratic ruling class. That class was characterized by extreme militarism and nationalism. Van der Donck could have been called a junker (pronounced Yonker) because of his education and manner. These Dutch people spoke low German and were certainly not well educated. Van der Donck was the only lawyer in town.

Justin, Stephanie, and Jerry: This is getting more and more interesting. I wonder if that was where Yonkheer came from? Although I don't see AvdD as at all militaristic.

BABI: yes, Adrian seems to have been a perfectionist – good trait in a lawyer. Although my niece, as a newbie lawyer, when she got her first case, she put hours of work into it. her boss was angry: said they were clearly going to lose the case anyway, and the client was going to be mad at having to pay for all that time. Go figure!

Mmm. Minimalist government. What a concept! Although the Senate, with its hundred members, doesn’t get things through any easier than the House, with its 400+.

ANN: I DON’T THINK Time Warner has Ovation. I couldn’t find it on their list. It sounds wonderful! I just got cable for the first time, and, except for sports (I’m a sports junkie) I usually watch the same PBS stations I got before.

(Yonkheer) “is getting more and more interesting”. I agree! I wonder if it could have shifted it’s meaning over the years, from a mark of respect to one of irony (someone who thinks he’s so great!).

Justin that is not right thei where well educated for sure being Dutch LOL

Jonkheer is a very low title not sure thei got it throu Fam or not

Geeee, I believed Shorto - that "Yonkers" was named after the large tract of land that van der Donck, the squire, the landholder held - Shorto seems to think of the term in a more positive light than we are hearing now!

I spent some time reading the "Remonstrance" - do you think we can have that put in the heading here for easy reference? It is quite a significant document, I think.

Because of time constraints, I'll just post a few of my notes - maybe you will want to read the Remonstrance yourself. It is so detailed. I'm sure you will note something new each time you look at it!
A few of the things I noted -

He writes that the land discovered by Henry Hudson was called New Netherland by its people.

The natives, the Americans are described at length - rather objectively, but he doesn't mince words -

Americans are foul and slovenly in their actions Have very little facial hair, what they have they pull out. Accomplish all their enterprises by treachery. Desire for revenge seems to be born in them. Heathens. Generally much afraid of the Devil who receives their adoration. They believe in the Immortality of the soul.

- Calls upon the High Mightienesses for remedies for the bad state of affairs...remedies which he will set forth,

Speaks of how injurious the Company has been to this country. Actions of the Company responsible for the bad conditions.

Director Kieft seems to get the most negative reviews - badly managing everything.

Very negative in telling of Director Stuyvesant as well. He handled matters with violence from the start - to everyone's discontent. Responds with fury to anyone who disagrees with him - frightful. Will not rest until he has his will. Details some of his actions.

In my opinion, Van Tienhoven gets the worst reviews though - villain, murderer, traitor.

Concludes that the country will never flourish under the government of the Honourable Company. They must be gotten rid of - and to prosper, the country must be provided with good leaders, good government, good teachers, good population given free passage.

Wow, JoanP, you did read the Remonstrance! Thank you for pointing out some of the highlights for us.

Currently, you can access the Remonstrance by clicking on "Resources on the Internet" in our Header above. It's the last link in the right column - "Remonstrance of New Netherland." You can also find in the left column van der Donck's "A Description of New Netherland." I'll ask Patwest to link directly to both of those documents in the Header.

JoanP : You didn't have a chance to read AvdD's "A Description of New Netherland" yet, by any chance?

Thank you, JOANP. What an excellent summary! Now, we'll have to see how this plays out.

Meanwhile, he is telling potential colonists how great everything is. (He may have really believed both, since he thought the country itself was wonderful. I'm surprised he could get so many to come, though, given the initial trouble the West India Company had rounding up volunteers. I'd think, just after peace had been declared, people wouldn't be so eager to leave. Perhaps the war had left scars on the country.

Week 5 begins today - Thurs., April 12, thru Wed., April 18. (It's already Thursday where I am.) We'll be discussing:

Pages 233 thru 283 (Chpt. 12: A Dangerous Man, Chpt. 13: Booming)

We have really made headway through this history book. It's contained some pretty heavy material, but what an interesting book and discussion!

Patwest has posted some questions for you to consider in our Header above. She will be posting the Week 5 schedule shortly.

Hi, JoanK! We're posting at the same time!

We find Stuyvesant reacting to the threat of Van Donck’s success on his mission by becoming "more summary". He arrested and imprisoned his vice director, Van Dinklagen and "placed spies among the board of Nine and their associates" , and "more and more took to deciding matters on his own". He is, unfortunately, proving Van Doncks assertions to be correct. I wonder, now, if this characteristic might be why Van Donck began in a friendly relationship with him, but then turned against him.

“The irony was that while Van der Donck was pushing with zeal to oust PS from his post as director of the colony, Stuyvesant himself was executing some brilliant diplomacy, working hard to ensure the stability of the colony in the face of its steadily encroaching neighbors to the north of the colony." Shorto does not neglect to point out Stuyvesants strengths and his contributions.

“INDEED, IT IS DUE TO THE SUCCESSES OF BOTH THESE BITTER RIVALS THAT NEW YORK CITY WOULD DEVELOP AS IT DID. HAD EITHER FAILED, THE ENGLISH WOULD PROBABLY HAVE SWEPT IN BEFORE DUTCH INSTITUTIONS WERE ESTABLISHED."

A pity, isn't it, that the characters and perceptions of these two men prevented them from working together harmoniously. The English might never have prevailed in New Netherlands.

Babi

I'm just stopping by quickly to say:

This afternoon, 3:00 p.m. EST, on the History Channel - "Royal Navy - Wooden Walls" Part 2 is on - about the 17th century wars at sea between the Dutch and the English.

Babi: It is a pity. I wonder, though, if it would have made a great deal of difference in the long run. There was so much influencing the outcome from a global perspective - like the Anglo-Dutch Wars going on.

Interesting point about Stuyvesant's characteristics perhaps being the reason AvdD turned against him. I guess I don't like thinking of AvdD as just totally conniving. It is good to see Stuyvesant doing work that really benefits the colony, too. He seems to have excellent negotiating skills with the New England governors. So Shorto is rounding out his characters. They aren't just black and white - although I think that was an expression he used to describe Stuyvesant at one point.

I just watched the TV program Wooden Walls, much of which was about the Anglo/Dutch Wars, then rushed to look up information about some of the people and events. Here's information about the program:

England's Wooden Walls

Here is information and paintings about the man who may have been the greatest of all Dutch admirals, Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter, during the time of our story, as the Dutch and English battled for control of the sea:

Admiral de Ruyter

Here are the Sailing and Fighting Instructions created for the British Navy by Robert Blake in 1653. It was his idea for the sea "line of battle" fighting which helped the British to defeat their enemies at sea in the 17th century. There's a picture of sea line of battle fighting in our book.

Robert Blake’s “The Sailing and Fighting Instructions” 1653

Here's a brief bio of British Admiral Robert Blake, hero of the British Navy during the Anglo-Dutch Wars, regarded as second only to Lord Nelson in British naval history:

Admiral Robert Blake

Here's a brief bio of Admiral Maarten Tromp, famous and popular Dutch admiral during the First Anglo-Dutch War. (Note he was captured by Barbary pirates when he was 12 and was a slave for 2 years.)

Admiral Maarten Tromp

Here's a brief bio of Cornelis Tromp, Maarten Tromp's son, also a Dutch Admiral during the Anglo-Dutch Wars.

Admiral Cornelis Tromp

I was so surprised to hear on the program that a man who did much to create the modern British Navy was Samuel Pepys - yes, the one who wrote the famous diary.

Rats! I missed it, by signing on late. We Patrick O'Brien fans always want to hear about the British navy.

More later. What a rollercoaster this section is. I suggest we take it a bit at a time, in case people are just catching up.

Wow, I was just reading Admiral Tromp's bio. He was captured by Barbary pirates a 2nd time - when he was in his early 20's and was enslaved for years longer. What a story about Tromp.

Interesting info here about dashing pirate Peter Easton who was raiding around during the 1600's. Babi: Are you the person who mentioned enjoying books about pirates? If so, do you know anything about Easton?

Our History Channel didn't show Wooden Walls today - nor is it playing all week. I did click the link you provided Marni, and see that it is to show again on April 15. Maybe we'll get it here - maybe you will get another chance next week, JoanK.

As furious as Stuyvesant was on hearing the news of van der Donck's successful presentation in Amsterdam, I was certain that the "dangerous" man in the title was Stuyvesant. Wasn't it great the way he didn't sit still in his office fuming, but did what he could to protect the Dutch boundaries?

Marni - yes, I see van der Donck as conniving too - but he was willing to do just about anything to get representative government in New Netherlands. He wasn't trying to get power for himself...or do you see that as his ultimate goal?

When I watched Stuyvesant continue to do the best he could in New Netherland, my attention turned to van Tienhoven. What a sleazy character he turned out to be. Imagine how he had to sit there and listen to van der Donck's characterization of himself. He ran off with the poor young lady foolish enough to believe him. Did they make it to the colony? I've lost track of him - but conclude he wasn't the "dangerous man."

Just when things were looking good, we saw Prince Willem - with an army of 10000 ready to storm the gates of Amsterdam because he didn't want his army reduced! I'm not sure how weather intervened. I'm not sure how he was convinced to compromise. I thought he was dangerous, didn't you?

Were you prepared to see our van der Donck considered the "dangerous man" - by the very same folks who were singing his praises not long ago. I was amazed that he was barred from returning to New Netherland. We're told his family boarded without him. Did "family" include his wife?

Again, he doesn't sit and wait for them to change their opinion of him - he picks up his pen again and writes "A Description of New Netherland"...I do intend to read that. From what I read here, his optimism that future settlers in the colony will be greeted by the tolerant Dutch - and that the English will not take over in the next 50 years. Was this the reason the States General voted to let him return? With restrictions, of course!

oops - just noticed you've served up some new questions - will look them over after dinner.

JoanP: I'm so excited that you're going to read AvdD's "A Description of New Netherland"! I'd love to hear your take on it and see some of the highlights like you pointed out with his Remonstrance! I'm going to try it myself. Anyone else?

JoanP asked a terrific question: "He [AvdD] wasn't trying to get power for himself...or do you see that as his ultimate goal?"

And she also asked what happened to van Tienhoven, the sleeze?

And how interesting that JoanP saw many people in Chapter 12 as candidates for the title "A Dangerous Man." Personally, I was assuming it would be Stuyvesant because I figured he was totally steaming with AvdD's trip to the States General - and after Stuyvesant had let him out of jail, no less. But, then, there were many candidates who were dangerous. JoanP mentioned van Tienhoven, too, and van der Donck himself, plus Willem, Prince of Orange, and of course, Suyvesant. I was thinking, too, of Oliver Cromwell who was certainly a dangerous man.

So, everyone, what are your thoughts as to who was dangerous - or the most dangerous? What was dangerous about them? What did Shorto mean by this title?

Can anyone answer JoanP's intriguing questions?

By the way, our new questions in the Header go in order to make it somewhat easier to hunt for the answers. Babi & JoanP have bravely started us off in Week 5.

Anyone want to try another question?

I THINK the dangerous man is supposed to be von Donck -- at one point Shorto quotes someone saying that (of course, I can't find it when I need it).

Don't you think there's something funny about the way their opinion of von Donck turned on it's head, as soon as the English/Dutch war started? I just felt there was something we weren't being told. Maybe someone in the West India Company finally used their influence.

JOANP: "He wasn't trying to get power for himself...or do you see that as his ultimate goal?"

I wondered about that. You notice, in the original order, he did ask for (and got) power. I see him as a mixture (like many politicians) of social and self interest.

By the way: did I misread the book, or were there two Willems? As I saw it (I had to look twice) the Willem who attacked, but got there late, was not the Willem in power, but a relative acting for him. I'll go back and check.

Marni are you of Dutch desent ??

Learning more every day. I was surprised to learn that Adm. Ruyter introduced the use of cannon to naval warfare. I just vaguely thought warships always had cannon. Thanks for those links.

MARNI, no, it wasn't me who spoke of liking to read about pirates. Whoever it was, I'm sure they'll chime in.

JOANK, I think you are right about the switch in Van Donck's status with the onset of the Dutch-English war being due to the Dutch West Indies Co. The ships of the company had been a major factor in the Dutch wars, and now they were needed again. Consequently, Van Donck, the bete noir of the DWI, is in official disfavor. The fortunes of war.

I was most disheartened by the turn of events. When Adrian Van der Donck strode out of the courtroom and into the square, elated and victorious , I could see the scene as clearly as if I were watching a film. What a splendid moment! And so shortlived.

Babi

No, Jerry, I'm not of Dutch descent, but my husband is. He was a member of the Holland Society, but it's been a long time since he paid his dues. That's what got me so interested in our book. The Lydeckers were some of the first settlers of New York and New Jersey.

Babi: Wasn't that interesting to see what a big role the Dutch played in designing warships and in developing sea naval strategy. I was looking at a map of the English Channel where a number of sea battles took place between the English and the Dutch during the Anglo-Dutch Wars. The two countries are right across the Channel from each other. I don't think I ever really thought about that before. They had such a history together - these two small countries who had their moments of such world power and glory on the seas.

I was very interested in the negotiations between Stuyvesant and the New England governors over property ownership and the resulting Treaty of Hartford in 1650. Stuyvesant gave up a great deal of land that the Dutch thought they owned as a result of these negotiations. Shorto points out that Stuyvesant basically gave up land that had already been lost, and the treaty helped maintain good relations; but the treaty really riled up some folks. Adriaen van der Donck used this loss in his presentations to the States General.

I found an article about the 1650 Treaty of Hartford by Wilson H. Faude, director emeritus of The Old State House in Hartford, CT, and a historical consultant. It gives a bit more information:

"In 1633, the Dutch built a small fort in Hartford, where three rivers meet (The Connecticut, the Hockanam and the Freshet, today known as the Park River). Its purpose was to receive the thousands of furs that Indians and others had to trade with them. The fort by all accounts was a modest one, thinly manned on 30 acres of land. Twice a year, when the river was full, Dutch ships would sail up from New Amsterdam to pick up the furs.

The arrival of the English from Cambridge in Hartford in 1636 changed everything. Although some may have come for religious reasons, it is no coincidence that the presence of the Dutch fort and the profitable fur trade dictated that the area around the Dutch fort was the place to establish a permanent inland English settlement.

Early accounts record growing tensions between the men in the fort and the English settlers. Stray Dutch cattle eating English crops further elevated tensions. As more and more Englishmen settled, Dutch lands were encroached upon.

It became apparent to the leaders of the English and the Dutch that something had to be worked out to avoid a war. After much negotiating, it was agreed that the governors of the Plymouth Colony, the Massachusetts Colony, the Connecticut Colony and the New Haven Colony should meet with the Dutch representatives.

The governors wanted to hold the meeting in Boston and the Dutch preferred Manhattan, so Hartford was selected because it was between the two. The Dutch were represented by none other than Peter Stuyvesant, "Governor General of the New Netherlands, Curacao, Aruba and etc" who was accompanied by his English secretary George Baxter and a large entourage.

Stuyvesant set out from Manhattan on Sept. 17, 1650, and visited Dutch settlements along the way, arriving in Hartford on Sept. 21. The English greeted him cordially and wined and dined him. The resulting Hartford Treaty of 1650 formally solidified the English position.

While the Dutch could retain their fort in Hartford, the remaining lands on both sides of the Connecticut River were declared English. A boundary line was drawn between the English and Dutch interests to prevent an incursions by the English on Dutch territory. It ran north-south through Long Island and the mainland, at the west side of Greenwich Bay. (This is why there are English- and Dutch-named counties on Long Island, Suffolk and Nassau.) No Dutch house could be built within 10 miles of the line. Any disputes would be mediated by the Dutch in Manhattan and the Colony of New Haven.

Stuyvesant knew he did not have the military strength to defeat an English invasion from the north, so a treaty that recognized Dutch interests around Manhattan was all he could hope for. The treaty was formally signed and on Oct. 12, 1650, Stuyvesant left Hartford.

Two years later, England and Holland went to war. After the news reached Hartford, on June 27, 1653, Captain John Underhill stormed the fort with a small group of men, threw out the Dutch and proclaimed "I, John Underhill, do seize upon this house and land hitherto belonging as Dutch goods, claimed by the West Indian Company in Amsterdam ... for the state of England.

The Colonial Court ordered Underhill not to sell the fort and its land, but on July 18, 1655, he did just that, conveying the 30-acre property to Richard Lord and William Gibbons. The Dutch were powerless to retake the fort. Upset at the ouster, the Dutch referred to the settlers in Hartford as "Jankes," pronounced Yankees, which meant thief, robber or pirate.

It was the Dutch fort erected at the cross rivers of the fur trade in Hartford that dictated a new English settlement should be built here. When Hartford was chosen as the site for Colonial leaders to meet and resolve their issues, the city-to-be assumed the mantle of a respected place.

Had not been for the Dutch fort, Hartford would not have been the place selected for settlement by the English under the Rev. Thomas Hooker."

http://www.hartfordinfo.org/issues/documents/history/htfd_courant_112005.asp

Map of the boundaries:

Click here for a larger version of the map. (Scroll down to History): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut

I also found an online history of New York that has some very interesting information about the land, the indians, and the history.

History of New York online: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ny/state/his/

Thank you SO much for that history Book. I have spent the last two hours reviewing this information. It is by far one of the best references I've ever seen and I thank you.

Alf: That's terrific you're enjoying that history book. I've been browsing through it and there is so much fascinating info there! It was written in 1927, if I recall correctly, so it's not up to date. But it's got great stuff.

If anyone is interested in how the NY/CT, MA/CT borders came to be - like how did that little section of land in southwest CT came to be, jutting into NY - check out Book I, Chapter I, Pts II and Pt III.

BABI: “The ships of the company had been a major factor in the Dutch wars, and now they were needed again. Consequently, Van Donck, the bete noir of the DWI, is in official disfavor. The fortunes of war”. Now that makes sense!

I have to shamefacedly admit that I had never heard of the English-Dutch war. The history I’ve read has been so focussed on France, Germany, the holy Roman Empire etc. It seems it’s not only the Dutch colonies in America that are neglected in our histories, but Dutch history generally.

Now to browse in the History. MARNI, queen of the links, has done it again!

I'm very upset. Preserving history is important to me. Someone did something awful. Someone cut off - at the ankles - and took off with the bronze statue of Nathan Hale (our state hero) from where it stood in front of the Nathan Hale Schoolhouse, a national historic site where he once taught school. I don't know what was used - a chainsaw? But all that's left is a pair of bronze feet. Can you image someone doing that? Someone has put up a $1000 reward to get it back.

Oh, yay, Patwest! Thanks! I'm going to have to watch the 11:00 news. Gosh, they found it near Diana's Pool. That's a drinking hangout near UConn. I bet it was some college prank. Oh, the poor statue.

Someone mentioned that they didn't get Time Warner's OVATION. I believe that its all in the choices of packages that one subscribes to when signing up with TW. OVATION is in the package after the basic channels, up in the 100's for us. Its always been on TW.

Marni, that book on NY history will take me a year to just peruse. How fascinating!

I am glad to see that Nathan Hale's statue sans feet has been located and will be restored. Some people have no respect for history!

The bad guy in Chap 12??? I'm not sure. I do believe that Willem and his desire to be a monarch was pretty awful. This chapter is about the most interesting of all since so many happenings in Europe, England and North America are deciding our future fate. And, Shorto, has done such a good job of marrying all that happens in this important era. The importance of realizing that a man can make decisions without the permission of the church, the founding of public schools, the thoughts that maybe we ought to try living under a socialistic rule. I did not see anything mentioned about equality of women but maybe I just missed that.

My Tai Chi friend whose relatives come from the area of New Netherland has the audio book and is truly enjoying the way Shorto brings these Dutch pioneers to life with all their foibles. She is redecorating her home and hasn't had time to look in here but that's all right. She is really liking the book and maybe will join us another time.

What a story: a statue sawed off! That can't have been easy to do. It does sound like a college prank, but what a destructive one.

ANN: I'm glad your friend is enjoying the book. Tell her she is welcome to join us anytime, in this discussion or another.

Yes, as I think I've said before, I feel one of Shorto's strengths is the way he connects what's happening in Europe and what's happening in America. Other history books I've read may have done that too, but somehow it didn't come through as clearly as it does here.

Von Donck must have felt really blindsided, as outside events twist and turn his mission: first delayed by Willems' invasion, then his gains destroyed by the English-Dutch war. I hope he didn't die feeling that he had been a failure -- from what Shorto said the gain that he did make, the institution of a municipal government was extremely important to the colony.

Ann: That's exciting about your Tai Chi friend listening to the audio version! I wonder how the narration is.

No, I haven't seen anything about rallying for rights of women so far. However, we have seen some strong women in the book and women who became leaders. Lady Deborah Moody was a wealthy aristocrat in England who believed strongly in civil liberties and religious non-conformity. She joined the Anabaptists who were Protestant a sect that rejected infant baptism in the belief that baptism should be administered only to adult believers. Lady Moody was forced to flee the oppressive religious climate in England in 1639. In 1644 she was given permission by the Dutch to settle at Gravesend in what is now Brooklyn, New York.

Anne Hutchinson is another strong woman Shorto writes about. She was banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for her heretical religious beliefs. She held Bible study classes in her own home. That must have threatened the ministers! She found refuge in New Netherland where, unfortunately, she was killed by Indians. The Hutchinson River Parkway is named after her.

I wonder if the Dutch women had it any easier in New Netherland than the English women in New England? I wonder if in the male-dominated theocracies of New England men were more uncomfortable about strong women - when you think of what happened during the witch trials somewhat later. I didn't get that feeling about the lives of women in New Netherland, although they didn't participate in the government committees. When you look at some of the hanky panky going in from the court records, it seems some of the women were doing just exactly what they pleased. And there was the gal who started her own brothel - what was her name?

Hi, JoanK! I seem to be posting with you the last few evenings. I've been grabbing my opportunity just before climbing into bed.

Yes, they found the statue. I saw the blurb on the 11:00 news. But they didn't show the poor statue - just its feet which were left behind at Nathan Hale's house. I wonder how they fix something like that?

Yes, I was surprised to learn that the place I lived in Brooklyn was in the first American colony founded by a woman. I had no idea while I was living there.

I also hadn't realized that the Salem witch trials were part of a frenzy of trying witches that was going on all over Europe.

A number of people have mentioned Willem. I got confused about all the Willems, too; there were so many of them - William in English. It was a popular name for the Prince of Orange.

The Willem who could be considered a "dangerous man" was very young and he was power-hungry - wanted to be king not long after the Treaty of Westphalia was signed and the Dutch Republic was recognized as independent. Unfortunately - or fortunately? - he died of smallpox at age 24.

One of the Willems, a short while later, was the "William" of "William and Mary" - the Prince of Orange who became king of England after James II was asked to resign.

JoanK: Interesting how they were targeting women in all of the witch trials. What was that all about?

Don't blush, JOANK. I had never heard of the Dutch-English war, either. Our history lessons did seem to focus on the big guys. Or perhaps, after 80 years of war, the 2-yr. D-E war didn't seem that big a deal. It should have, tho', considering the advances in naval warfare that began at that time.

I was struck by the repeated return to the massacre at Amboyna, playing such a role in stirring people up to 'hate thy neighbor'. Events like Amboyna have always left an enduring legacy of hatred . History is full of ongoing hatreds and vengeance passed down for generations, because of some incident of bloody slaughter. Yet we also have healing taking place when the alternate route of forbearance and mercy is shown. Lesson here,duh!! And of course we still see stories circulating every day attempting to stir people up to fear, and attack, some group or another. Bah, humbug!

Babi

I had never heard of the Anglo-Dutch wars either! And now I'm finding out that the Dutch actually were one of the "big guys," at least when it came to seafaring, trading, shipping, colonizing, innovising, painting, even gardening! Which reminds me - the tulips are budding! And a "noreaster" is coming this weekend. Uh, oh.

Dutch women.. Actually they had a good deal of power. If you read the early wills, the men did leave the estate in their widows hands ( unless they remarried). Actually if either remarried, they had to go before the Orphans committee to make sure the children were treated fairly. Many women owned land and ships and were prominent in the community. Once the English came, this was abolished but in the early times, the women were really prominent.

Marni your name is found in a rovince in Holland a lot Brabant by name that is why I asked it I never was a member of the Dutch club here having a NZ woman as a wife

Persecution of women in the Puritan community and else where has roots in Scriptural language. Eve was the one who tempted Adam. It was the wife who was turned to Salt for hankey pankey. That kind of tribute to womanhood is all over the scriptures so it is not hard to find the cause of women's troubles. What has been hard is correcting the problem.

Stephanie: That is very interesting that if either [husband or wife] remarried, they had to go before the Orphans committee to make sure the children were treated fairly. I love that - a law ensuring the children were taken care of! Do you think it was common for Dutch couples of the times to separate? Did they divorce? I am thinking of van der donck's parents who separated and the wife had to pay alimony to her husband, Adriaen's father. Interesting to see that they both were persuaded to come to the new world, albeit separately.

Do you know if a Dutch wife who inherited property back then would be allowed to keep it if she remarried? I read an English woman then could inherit properity, but once she remarried, it automatically became the property of her husband.

Thinking about van der Donck's parents coming to New Netherlands along with their son Adriaen, his wife, and Adriaen's brother and his family - They must have been jumping with excitement looking forward to the trip and Adriaen showing them their new country. And suddenly, everything changed! The deal was off! Adriaen was suddenly considered a dangerous man and was not allowed on the ship with the rest of his family. They had to sail without him and he was stuck in the old country for years. It must have really put a damper on things for everyone. His poor wife. She must have been a very strong woman.

Jerry: Do you mean my name "Marni" is found in the Brabant? That's interesting. Marni is my nickname, not my real name. It's a nickname for Mary Ann.

Speaking of family names, my husband told me I had told you all an incorrect name for his ancestor who was the first of the Lydeckers to come to New Netherland. (Yikes, what a terrible memory I have.) He said his ancestor's name was Ryck Lydecker, not Gerrit Lydecker. Gerrit was Ryck Lydecker's son. This makes sense to me because my husband's middle name is Ryck. The names Ryck and Gerrit have been used in many generations of his family. My son's middle name is Garrit. (The spelling was changed over the years.)

I found this info about Ryck Lydecker on the internet:

"Ryck Lydecker was born circa 1620 at Netherlands. He married Claertie Vernier. Ryck Lydecker died in 1666 at Boswyck, Kings County, New York; between Jan 13, 1666 and Nov 28, 1666.

He immigrated before 16-Feb-1653. He recieved a patent as recorded on the western end of Long Island within the area callled Mespatches by the Indians, who in 1638 had sold it to the Dutch. The patent was for 25 mogens of land, approximately 59 acres on 10-Dec-1654. On 1660 Ryck was one of twenty-two men selected by Gov. Stuyvesant to organize and establish a proposed village, soon to be named Boswyck, on the western end of Long Island in the area called Mispatches by the Indians.

He held the position of of Schout and the captain of militia of forty men and boys. In 1663 at Boswyck, Kings County, New York. He held the position of of magistrate on 30-Mar-1665 at Boswyck, Kings County, New York."

http://www.conovergenealogy.com/ancestor-p/p139.htm#i67315

JoanK: Do you have any idea where this area of western Long Island was?

Justin: I'm kind of wondering if the Dutch were correcting the problem faster than the English!

I noticed, Justin, in the info about Ryck Lydecker, my husband Bob's ancestor, that some of his descendents lived in Hackensack. I wonder if your family is related at all to my husband's family. Oh, wait. Your family was from Hoboken, not Hackensack I think. I'm getting my H's mixed up.

Jerry: Can you tell us more about the Dutch club there and why you could not be a member because you married a New Zealand woman?

Marni My name is Gerrit but fam call me Gait

I can be a member of Dutch club no problem but thei do things I have n interest in so never joint

It is intersting what you can come up with when you dig

Brabant is a Provenc and that name used their.

Jerry: There are many Gerrits or Garrits or Garrets in Bob's ancestry. His father's name was Garrit. Everyone called him Gary. Is Gerrit a common Dutch name? Both Bob and his brother have the same middle name - Ryck. (pronounced like Mike.) Their cousin's first name is Ryck, too. I was wondering if that were a common Dutch name.

Bob and his father were both members of the Holland Society. While we've been married, Bob never attended a meeting. He was never interested in it. It's kind of like the Sons of the American Revolution except it's for descendents of New Netherland. I'm not sure what members do. Maybe I'll look it up.

Here we go....The Holland Society is....

"The Holland Society was founded in New York City in 1885 to collect information respecting the settlement and history of New Netherland. Its main objective is to find and preserve documentation about the inhabitants' lives and times so as to elucidate the political, social, and religious patterns in the Dutch colony. Historical publications are sponsored, along with encouragement for family studies and genealogy. Many Society members are especially active in genealogical research and publication. The Holland Society originated The New Netherland Project which is translating and publishing the 17th Century records held by the New York State Archives. Among other current sponsorships are The Papers of Jacob Leisler Project and Records of the Translations of the Reformed Protestant Dutch Church of Flatbush, Kings County New York."

http://www.hollandsociety.org/

Mary Ann: Descendants of my ancestors also lived in Hackensack.The Van der Bogardt lady married a Faesch and she and her husband and all the children except one wagon pooled to Peoria in about 1825. The one remaining in NYC eventually moved to Hackensack.

Oh, there are some very interesting links in the Holland Society site. Look at this picture of a stained glass window of Peter Stuyvesant in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery in New York City:

http://www.hollanddames.org/imgs/peterglass_l.jpg

For you folks who love old maps, check this out!

Old Maps

This is interesting, too. Click on "The History":

http://www.newnetherland.org/

Another society is linked to - The the Saint Nicholas Society of the City of New York:

"The Society was founded in 1835 by a group of prominent New York City gentlemen, including Washington Irving, as a membership organization the purpose of which is to preserve knowledge of the history and customs of New York City’s Dutch forebears. It is one of the oldest societies in the United States. Membership is by invitation only and limited to those men who can demonstrate descent from a resident of New York State before 1785. By virtue of ts membership requirements, many members are descended from the city’s first settlers, who included several nationalities and faiths as well as Dutch people and descendants of Native Americans. "

http://www.saintnicholassociety.org/

Justin: I think it is so fascinating how you and Stephanie know so much about your family backgrounds. I am wishing I had spent more time investigating my family. Well, I guess there still is time. This is fun. It's like a giant puzzle.

Marni thanks for the links Gerrit is a very Commen name I chanced myn to Jerry LOL Ryck I don,t know about maybe commen in places

Marni: Kings County is Brooklyn. There is a Bostwick Section of Long Island but I can't remember exactly where it is. I know that in 1657 a Dutch ship ran aground off Long Island somewhere and many of the survivors stayed in that area.

MARNI, that stained glass window was gorgeous. Made PS look better than his portraits, too, didn't it?

Distressing to know that women lost so many rights when the English took over. Does that mean women who owned property actually had it taken away from them? Surely not. Possibly they had no standing under the law, and therefore had to appoint some male to act for them.

On Q. 3, it appears that the lack of guilds gave 'apprentices' more freedom to take on other lines of work. They were not lock into one profession/trade. They had a 'baas' wherever they worked, but no master. Shorto describes the apprentice who rose to become a wealthy businessman and landowner. He couldn't have done that in Europe. This lack of guilds in America apparently was the key in the 'upward mobility' factor that became so much a part of America.

(Incidentally, I loved learning all the words, like 'boss', and 'cookies', that arose from the Dutch language used throughout the colony. This chapter has been so much fun.)

Babi

I am not sure just what happened to the land, but you must understand that up in Schenectady and Albany, a lot of the land was rented from the Renssalaers.. The house etc belonged to the family, but they had very very long term leases on it. This remained true in the English period as well. I have several female ancestors who owned boats and ran successful business in that era. Dutch women were bright, outspoken and altogether fun to be related to. Isaac Allerton according to the March 2007 article in Mayflower Quarterly.. Just some snips, since it is copyrighted. Allerton thus had a financial interest in persuading his fellow New Englanders not to proceed with their oplans to invade the Dealware River V alley in mid 1655. He arranged a conference at his New Amsterdam home. New Haveners shelved their invasion idea thus avoiding a messy three way war with the Dutch and Swedes over the Delaware. When War finally arrived in september 1655 it came about because of the Dutch. Stuyvesant led the Warship de Waegy and his other vessels and many soldiers to New Swedan. The Governor surrendered 10 days later. However that same day at dawn six hundred Minquas retaliated by raiding Stuyvesants capitol at Manhattan. Theyr aided Allertons warehouse among others, but after discussion with Allerton in their language did not harm him or the warehouse. This goes on and on about Allertons influence in New Sweden and how he helped them avert all out war with the Dutch.

Justin: Your story about the Dutch ship running aground and survivors staying on Long Island reminded me of a similar story I just heard. I had dinner last night with friends of Irish descendent (their parents came to America from Ireland). Their oldest daughter has very dark brown hair and they say she is "black Irish."

I had always thought the people referred to as "black Irish" got their coloring from Romans in the British Isles. But I found out last night that they supposedly descend from people who survived when the Spanish Armada, escaping from the English fleet, was destroyed in a storm off the coast of Ireland, with many from the ships drowning, but many washing up on shore alive. Apparently, the Irish saved many of those who didn't drown, took them in because the Irish hated the English. Apparently, many of the Spanish survivors stayed in Ireland and intermarried.

Babi: Wasn't that stained glass Stuyvesant window beautiful! I've only seen a few stained glass church windows that did not depict religious topics - the Stuyvesant was one. The others were the stained glass windows of Revolutionary war soldiers in the chapel in Valley Forge.

So interesting to read your answer about how lack of guilds were a key to upward mobility in America. Being a member of aristocracy was not required. This made me think about how the Dutch were a "nation of merchants." Hasn't America been called this, too? In 17th century Holland, we read that wealthy merchants such as directors of the Dutch India Cos. were as powerful as the government and had a great deal of control over the States General.

The whole thing about guilds, workers, and the "baas" makes me think about Adriaen van der Donck's "purchase" of contracts of indentured servants while he was in Holland waiting to go back home. Did you notice the arrangements he made for a number of people to go over to his estate in America and work for a required number of years?

I read up on indentured servants awhile back when I found out that John Fitch had been an indentured servant - his father "sold" him so that he could learn a trade. An "indenture" was actually a legal written contract. A person was "sold," per arrangements specified in the contract, for a specific number of years and to do a particular job. The indenture owner also had required duties specified in the contract - such as requirements to teach the servant specific tasks so that person became proficient in a job; also the owner was required to do such things as feed, clothe, shelter, and educate the servant. Once the time period was up, the indenture was over.

Stephanie: Your description of the people owning the houses, but renting the land they were on for a long term reminds me of how condominiums work today.

I wonder if Stuyvesant had any idea of the repercussions that might occur from the Indians when he attacked the Swedish settlement? He must have known about the trading relations between the Swedes (and Finns who also lived there) and the tribes in the area. The whole trading system was thrown into an uproar when they surrendered their colony to the Dutch.

Wasn't that interesting to read about the Finns in the Swedish settlement - how they were such craftsmen with wood and how it was they who built log cabins and brought the idea of the log cabin to America?

JoanP asked (I think it was JoanP) what happened to van Tienhoven. Did anyone find out yet?

MARNI: "Your description of the people owning the houses, but renting the land they were on for a long term reminds me of how condominiums work today".

In Maryland, we were told when we bought our house that, while people think of themselves as owning the land, it's only a 99 year lease from the State of Maryland. I don't know 99 years from when, or if the state ever takes it back!

JoanK: Do you mean a regular house in Maryland, not a condo? You only rent the land? Holy smokes! I wonder why?

I took a peek into your links and have bookmarked each as they are marvelous. I loved the maps and the history of Dutch societies that were started so long ago and are still very alive studying their history and connections to the beginnings of our country.

Stephanie and JoanK,

There is an article in the recent AARP Bulletin concerning a woman who failed to pay the groundrent of $48 on the land her row house stood on in Baltimore. Considered disabled by asthma and chronic arthritis, she couldn't pay the last 6 months of rent because they had had a serious fire and she wasn't even living there while trying to get the house repaired. "Due to a curious law on the books in Maryland, Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Hawaii, you might own your home but not the ground it stands on. And if you fail to pay the landowner an annual 'ground rent'--typically about $100--you stand to lose your home." After paying a lawyer $450, the 54 yr old woman regained the ownership of her home. There are now legislatures in Maryland and one other state trying to disallow these old, old laws. Look at the NY or Albany land laws in the 1600's and here's a similar law right here in 2007. Just goes to prove that old saying, "There's nothing new under the sun!" Ecclesiastes 1-8.

Ann & JoanK: I had never heard of ground rent before. I looked it up to see what I could find.

A History of Maryland Ground Rents

Ground rent -- Maryland's arcane system in which thousands of homeowners lease the land under their houses -- is as much a part of Baltimore's history as crabs.

The system dates to 1632, when King Charles I of England gave Cecilius Calvert -- otherwise known as the second Lord Baltimore -- all the land in what is now Maryland.

Calvert collected rents from the colonists who built on his land, and he also paid rents to the king each Easter at Windsor Castle. He promised King Charles I two American Indian arrowheads and a fifth of any gold and silver found in the colony, though no gold and silver were ever found.

Shortly after the American Revolution, Maryland's legislature spread the wealth, empowering any landholder to demand rent. Some took cash, others trade.

In Fells Point, for instance, precursors to ground rents were paid in tobacco. One owner accepted a single red rose, in keeping with the flower's history of tribute.

Ground rents played a pivotal role as Baltimore grew into an industrial powerhouse in the early 20th century, spurring development of miles of affordable red-brick and white-marble-stepped rowhouses.

Developers knew that working-class families could more easily afford to buy a home if they didn't need to pay for the land. So they leased these families the ground at minimal cost and drew on the rent payments to boost their profits and help build even more new blocks of homes.

As the city's housing needs grew, particularly with returning GIs after World War II, the ground rent system seemed to serve everyone's interests. Developers and investors pointed to ground rent as a key enabler of affordable housing in the city.

There have been critics along the way, however.

"It is customary in Baltimore to wag our heads complacently over the ground rent system," begins a nonbylined column written by "our social trends correspondent" in the March 18, 1941, edition of The Evening Sun.

The writer goes on to accuse developers of "profiteering" by buying cheap parcels of land and boosting the value more than 1,000 percent overnight simply by creating ground rents. At that time, ground rents were valued by dividing the annual fee by six and multiplying by 100. A $60 ground rent, for example, was worth $1,000.

Also, the writer said, the homes built on these tiny lots were "congenitally substandard," so jammed and narrow that daylight couldn't find its way in.

The writer predicted that many of these homes would wind up as a "pesthole," slums that would be abandoned, leaving taxpayers to foot the bill for tearing them down.

Nearly two decades later, Ann Miller of Baltimore wrote a letter to the editor of The Evening Sun urging support for a state bill to "put an end to the ground-rent racket" and the "handful of profiteers who hold thousands of our neighbors in bondage."

The bill, filed by Del. Joseph A. Acker in 1959, sought to phase out ground rents by requiring that they be sold along with the homes. Miller said she hoped lawmakers would show the "courage" to support Acker's bill when the "influence peddlers and lobbyists corner them in Annapolis."

Nearly a half-century later, new ground rents are being created when some houses are sold.

History of Ground Rent

--------------------------------------------------

Here's one more explanation with examples:

What Is A Ground Rent?

Ground Rents originated in Colonial America, to allow the colonists to own homes without paying for the land on which they lived. Ground Rents still exist in Maryland and various other areas around the nation.

In Maryland, the typical Ground Rent is a 99-year lease with an automatic renewal provision. With a Ground Rent, you pay the Ground Rent owner an annual amount (typically in semi-annual payments) to remain on the property. So long as the annual payments are made, the owner of the Ground Rent cannot remove you from the property. Hence, an individual may own the home in which he/she lives, but lease the property on which the home sits.

Ground Rents created after April 8, 1884 may be redeemed or purchased from the Ground Rent owner (some Ground Rents created prior to April 9, 1884 may not be redeemable), by paying an amount equal to the annual Ground Rent multiplied by:

25 (which is a capitalization at 4%), if the ground lease was executed from April 8, 1884 to April 5, 1888, inclusive; 8.33 (which is a capitalization at 12%), if the ground lease was or is created after July 1, 1982; or 16.66 (which is a capitalization at 6%), if the ground lease was created at any other time. Thus, to redeem a $120.00 annual Ground Rent which was established in 1960, you would pay the Ground Rent owner $2,000.00 ($120.00 x 16.66).

http://www.citizens-title.com/faq.html

I knew that Hawaii has mostly ground rent, but did not know about Maryland. New Yorks stopped when the patroon arrangement was stopped. Have honestly forgotten the dates.

MARNI, I don't believe Stuyvesant ever really understood the Indians at all. I suspect he fully expected to take over the New Sweden forts, and the profits from the Indian trade as well. I doubt it ever occurred to him that the Indians might have a say in all this, much less that they might consider themselves allies of the Swedes.

I was delighted to learn of Albany’s origins as a ‘frontier’ town, with Indians walking the streets freely and the Indian trade flourishing. Known then as “Beverwyck”, it was “ a hardscrabble place, poised between the looming mountains and the vast river, the thunk of beaver skins on countertops the sound of commerce”. Now this, IMO, is why we love Shorto’s writing style.

“Booming” gives us a wonderful variety of things American born in the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam, It was the original ‘melting pot’ that became a hallmark of America and Americans. “And it was a sixteenth-century Dutch sensibility -- a mix of frankness, piety, a keen business sense, an eye on the wider world, and a willingness to put up with people’s differences -- that formed the social glue.”

Babi

Aside: I may be out of the discussion for a couple of days, as we are having computer problems at our house; will return when possible.

Stephanie: You got me thinking when you mentioned ground rent in relationship to the patroon system. I suppose the "ground rent" system was used all over back in the day. Just think of all the property that wealthy folks like George Washington bought up - speculating in land - and then sold some, but rented much to tenants who built their own homes on the land, farmed it, but paid rent for the use of the property. It was called tenant farming. But it was pretty much the same thing as ground rent, it seems to me.

Babi: It does seem that Stuyvesant didn't see the big picture when it came to the Indians and trading arrangements. Or could he have just decided, after letting it wait for years, that he absolutely had to do something about the Swedish settlement before it was too late? New Netherland was being surrounded by colonies from other nations.

I did love the story about Beverwyck. I read that "bever" means "beaver" in Dutch (of course, duh!); and "wyck" (pronounced vaik), meaning "district." Beaver District. I love it!

I did not love the story of Adriaen van der Donck at this point. JoanK said it earlier - such ups and downs. To sum up....

AvdD was exhilarated with his success before it all went kaput. The States General had granted him the right to pass on his New Netherland estate to his heirs - a power reserved for fiefholders such as van Rensselaer. His family was nearly ready to move to America. AvdD appeared before a government committee formally asking to be allowed to return to America and resume his previous political role - "to hold peaceably the office of President of the Commonalty in New Amsterdam." As Shorto puts it, "he planned to lead the new government." Imagine van der Donck's importance in the colony had world events been a bit different.

And then came the fallout after Oliver Cromwell's government passed the Navigation Act, hoping to break the Dutch monopoly on trade. And, as we know, the First Anglo-Dutch War began. The Dutch West India Co. suddenly gained back its influence. The States General reversed its rulings and rescinded its recall of Stuyvesant. Van der Donck's activism now appeared dangerous and radical and he wasn't allowed to go to America.

During his stay in Amsterdam, AvdD produced his A Description of New Netherland but wasn't allowed to publish it. Finally, after four years in Europe, AvdD was allowed to go home.

But his cause "was shattered." He was "wholly disheartened and cast down." Van der Donck had to eat crow in order to get permission to go to America. He had to "humbly" request a passport and resign his commission as President of the community. He had to promise to accept no office in the colony and to live in private "peacefully and quietly," submitting to the orders and commands of the Company or director. He was forbidden to engage in public life and forbidden to practice law in the colony. Basically, his means of livelihood was taken away.

When Adriaen van der Donck returned to America, did he follow orders, keep to a private life out of public affairs?

I'm off in the rain to New London to check on my parents. Good luck with the weather, everyone. And taxes! I'll check back tonight.

I’d forgotten that I was paying ground rent until this came up. It must have been included as part of my property tax: I never paid a separate rent to an owner. Thank you for all that information.

BABI: I think you’re right about Stuyvesant. And he probably never made the connection between his actions and the Indians. But how tragic that people like von Donck, who always tried to understand the Indians, were killed. That’s the thing with war. It doesn’t matter who you are, or what your values are anymore, only that you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yes, we get a very nice picture of the colonies in this chapter. Really makes you wish you could visit them!

MIPPY: hope your computer gets well soon, and you can hurry back!

MARNI: is it still raining there? You can’t seem to get any breaks with the weather! Let us know how your parents are doing.

Marni it is not district but think it is Suburbia not sure Wyck I was talking about confusing LOL.

The arrival of little grandson on Friday interrupted my reading schedule - but I caught up to you all, sort of almost!

Wasn't Stuyvesant obstinate - the way he just ignored the directive that representative government be instituted? - He simply refused to "allow" elections and appointed the first officers himself. The way I understood it, there were supposed to be two co-mayors and a panel of judges. Did he name the mayors too? What a guy!

And how about van der Donck...can you imagine the return of the "Lawman" - to the life of a farmer? A lawman who does not practice law? Didn't you just know he wouldn't stay out of things when he returned?
Do I remember correctly from reading his work on New Netherlands - that he died at the age of 35? I hope I'm wrong!

Remember the last chapter talked about "The Dangerous Man"? Who was it who saw Cromwell play that part? Now I agree - he's turning out to be the most dangerous man to the Dutch settlement in Manhattan I think. Can't you sense the end of Dutch Manhattan?

Oh, what a terrible day with this rain. I have water in my basement. My parents are hanging in there. Thanks for asking! I made my homemade pea soup for my dad - one of his very favorite things - for his belated birthday present. And he was able to eat it so that made me feel good.

I found something VERY exciting when I got home - the new Smithsonian Magazine. There is a WONDERFUL article (plus maps) about the Jamestown, VA settlement. New information is being discovered about that early colony, too! Wait til you see it.

Here are a couple of things from the article.....

- Captain John Smith sailed home from Jamestown to get medical help for terrible burns he received when gunpowder he was carrying around his waist caught fire.

- Europeans introduced malaria to North America. One reason that African Americans were considered so valuable in America was because in Africa they had become quite immune to malaria. Native Americans and Europeans often died from one form of malaria and became periodically very exhausted, lethargic, and unproductive from another form of malaria.

Jerry: I found this definition for "wyck" (re Beverwyck). Let me know if it doesn't sound correct to you.

"Wildwyck comes from the the Dutch words wild (pronounced vilt), meaning wild, savage, or indian (as either an adjective or noun), and wyck (pronounced vaik), meaning a quarter, ward, or district, or a retreat or refuge. The combined Wildwyck may thus be interpreted in any number of different ways. The accepted anglicized pronunciation for the name Wiltwick."

http://www.ulster.net/~hrmm/rondout/names.htm

JoanP: Congrats again on your new grandchild! You must be having such a blast being a grandmother.

"A lawman who does not practice law?" JoanP: You are so funny! And you are right from what Shorto says. Van der Donck could NOT just stay on the farm. It appears that right away he jumped back into the fray - just like old times. I loved it!

But then, OMG, to read that van der Donck probably was killed by Indians during the period after Stuyvesant disrupted trade between the Swedes and the Indians! I got depressed when I read it! I truly felt awful about it. And yes, I think Adriaen was just in his mid-30's when he died. A young man still and he had no children yet to carry along his legacy. Oh, his poor wife. She sold their estate - land which eventually became Yonkers, NY.

Yes, Oliver Cromwell was a very dangerous man. One of those powerful brilliant military leaders who aspired to rule. But we're going to see shortly that Stuyvesant has to wrangle with another dangerous man from New England.

Marni closesd would be Ward i think

Sample like a Town is devided into Wijken

I believe Shorto says Van Donck was 38 when he died. What a loss. He did keep his promise not to take a public office. He just 'quietly' and'privately' aided and abeted all his cohorts in carrying on with their goals. Can't keep a good man down. Until you have to bury him, anyway.

Shorto makes an observation that caught my attention. “Equality” was not a part of the social mix. Shorto says it wasn’t even an ideal at that time. Tolerance, or at least acceptance, was the “major leap forward in human civilization that had recently occurred, which helped form the societies both of the Dutch Republic and the Manhattan colony”.

In my own view, the premise that ‘all men are created equal’ has been misunderstood. It is patently obvious that not everyone is equal physically, mentally, or in talents, aptitudes, opportunities, etc. I believe the ‘equality’ intended by that phrase was the equality of all in the judgment of God, which required the equality of all in the eyes of the law and gave rise to ‘certain inalienable rights’. We fall short of that ideal, too, of course, but at least it's recognized as a goal to be sought.

Babi .

Beavers were the reason for Beverwyck, Fort Orange, Schenectady, etc. etc. One of my ancestors was called Capt. Jan.. because he went alone into Indian country and learned their language well enough to be a translater and in return was taken by the Indians to where the very best beavers were. He became quite rich in the beaver trade.. The Canadians ( french and the Indian tribes that clung to them) were the big enemy in Albany..

Babi: It's amazing to consider that equality had not yet become an ideal and that tolerance or just acceptance was a major leap forward. It does seem we've since traveled a long way towards tolerance and equality on a broader scale.

I think of how fragile tolerance and equality are. They seem to have natural enemies in bigotry, fear, hatred, narrowmindedness, sexism, and powermongering. The balance between them must be guarded with great care because tolerance and equality can be chipped away bit by bit or wiped out in an instant.

Stephanie: What a wonderful story about your Capt. Jan. How were these stories passed down through your family to you?

I read in the new Smithsonian Magazine that it got to where 35,000 beaver pelts were exported annually from New Netherland. No wonder the French and the Dutch were enemies. They and their Indian allies were really scrambling in the competition for what was rapidly becoming a non-replaceable commodity of beavers.

BABI: ““Equality” was not a part of the social mix. Shorto says it wasn’t even an ideal at that time”. Yes, isn’t that strange. We want to assume that people thought the same way that we do. To us, tolerance means, in part, recognizing others with the same rights as us. But then, just the idea that you could live with someone different, without either forcing them to be like you or expelling them, apparently was a step forward.

An excellent description of “equality” as we see it.

STEPHANIE: yes, the whole colonization started from the beaver trade, didn’t it? And the Dutch merchants wanting to make a profit from it. If there hadn’t been beavers, or if the Dutch were not so enamored of fur from the earlier Russian fur trade, there probably would have been no Dutch settlements.

MARNIE: I hope your basement is ok, now. Glad that your father could enjoy your pea soup – I’ll bet it’s good.

Yes, as “tolerant” as we think we are, sometimes it’s only skin deep. Today I was hearing “That terrible man who shot all those students was Asian”. As if that had anything to do with it, for goodness sakes!! There is mental illness everywhere.

I've been feeling so terrible about the shootings. It brought back memories from my first year of teaching. I was only 22 and teaching high school was hard enough. One of my students, unbeknownst to me, had many psychological problems and many hatreds.

One day police talked to me privately at school. They told me this boy had come to their attention. Apparently, he had been writing in his school journal - an assigned document that was collected and read each week by one of his other teachers - about how much he hated me. He wrote things such as how he was going to kill me and cut me up into little pieces.

Apparently, his teacher, reading these remarks, thought the boy was being funny. She didn't do anything about it for months - didn't say anything to anyone, not even me. Eventually, due to some other behavior, the police got involved. At the boy's home, they found he had a large gun collection in his room and swastikas hanging all over the walls. He greatly admired the Nazis. His parents knew about it.

He was taken out of my class, but he continued to attend the school, although he was seeing a shrink. I have always to this day been shocked about the whole thing, especially about the teacher who didn't say anything to anyone. Then, when I hear about such a thing as the Virginia Tech shootings, I wonder what might have happened if he hadn't been stopped and received some help.

Marni that would have been scary after thei got him in time by the looks of it.

OH! marni it brings bad memories for you. Hope you don't have nightmares. I am so glad they took him out of your class.

That was scary, Jerry & Ginger! I remember I had to take sleeping pills for awhile.

But, this whole VA Tech story does make one think once again about individual freedoms allowed in America - how they are so precious, but how they can be abused. There is a delicate balancing act between protecting individual freedoms and controlling violence and crime and terror.

Oh, MARNI! How terrible for you. I am so glad he didn't hurt you. I wonder if he went on to hurt someone else.

You are right about individual freedoms. How you balance freedom with security is a constant question.

I am not sure that Short did much on this, but it is amazing the number of English who came to New Netherlands and Albany, etc. They let their names slide into a more common version for the Dutch.. DeNys became Nyssen.. Alexander became Sander.. Barrett became Barrith..There are a lot of English in the area, but they are almost unrecognizable as such. I think the Dutch version of tolerance was very appealing to many other countries. Many of the original settlers in New Netherlands also came from France, Germany and Denmark, Switzerland. Shorto concentrated on Holland, but many of the people he mentioned were not really dutch.

You're right about the English residents prefering the Dutch colony, Stephanie, and Shorto did make that point, I believe.

“In demanding a voice in their affairs, the residents of the Long Island towns - Dutch and English both - were reacting not to the war but to the founding of the municipality of New Amsterdam.” The magistrates not only supported their petitions, they invited them to come to New Amsterdam and join them in putting together and presenting a formal petition. The new magistrates are taking their roles very seriously. The complaint filed by the English residents pointed out clearly that they were not seeking an English government; that they had fled to the Netherlands colony “to take advantage of the more liberal justice of the Dutch Republic.

Babi

Well, we have reached the last day of Week 5 in our discussion and tomorrow we will begin our final week. In the days ahead, we'll see how significant were the words of Swede Von Elswick in the summer of 1655 when he said to conqueror Peter Stuyvesant, “Hodie mihi, cras tibi.”

Before we move on, does anyone have any comments or any more answers to the questions above?

I am way behind in my reading although I made a habit to read some pages every day. Life has been really busy the last few weeks with Ralph not well plus grans also having their problems. I have a brief story to tell.

One of my friends in here was having her new home blessed by her minister. She had the book laying out and he saw it and told her about being from that area and his relatives who were part of the Dutch community. Several friends were there and another spoke up and said he had relatives in New Amsterdam also. So, now, both men are reading and really enjoying the book.

Babi, question? Did you say that the English name Alexander became Sander? My DIL is a Sander and her great grandfather was involved in founding one of our large companies that made the cash register. Can't think of the company's name but know its located in Dayton, Ohio. Maybe Burroughs? No, NCR! National Cash Register Co. I will mention to her about the changing of the English Alexander to Sander. Her dad and his brothers will most interested as they have been doing much on genealogy of the family.

Ann: Isn't it amazing how we keep bumping into people who are of Dutch colonial heritage and interested in this book!?

I'm sure you are not the only one behind in the reading. There was a lot of meat in this book and it was slower reading than novels. But well worth it, I think.

Stephanie: I found some interesting pictures of old Albany buildings and how they changed over the years. Here is the Philip Pieterse Schuyler house, built between 1659 and 1667, and paintings showing how it changed.

http://www.albany.edu/museum/wwwmuseum/statestreet/stateandpearl.html

Babi & Stephanie: New Netherland certainly attracted people from many countries. From the very beginning New York was a melting pot. We'll find out in the next chapter, "New York," how they felt when the English took over.

And we'll meet a new villain: Mr. Downing for whom Downing Street was named!

ANN, I remember someone posting about the name changes, but it wasn't me. I believe the name Sanders probably had some other origins, too. It would probably require some research to determine the origin of one's particular name.

Another historical figure not previously much considered: JOHN WINTHROP, JR. , a man of 'quiet accomplishments and unexpected political cunning'. Misled his fellow governor, pretended friendship w/ Stuyvesant, while gathering info about New Amsterdam, passed the information to his cousin, George Downing, the Eng. Ambassador to the Hague, and then persuaded King Charles II to give him a charter granting him governorship of most of Colonial America, extending to the Pacific!

I am constantly bemused at the manner in which far off monarchs generously handed their supporters large tracts of land that were not theirs to give. Then Winthrop has scarcely gotten home before Charles turns around and gives most of the same land to his brother James. I am put in mind of that sage advice, “PUT NOT YOUR TRUST IN PRINCES!”

Babi

Well, here we are in our final week! We made it! I hope everyone is able to catch up with us. What a journey! Some new questions are posted above for anyone interested.

Babi: I simply loved reading about John Winthrop Jr.'s cunning actions and the story of how he persuaded Charles II to grant him the charter for Connecticut. What a fun story of twists and turns! I had no idea that George Downing, whom Downing St. was named after as JoanK mentioned, was his cousin.

The charter story is a famous one to Connecticutites. Its a story we all learn in grammar school. As Shorto said, in 1662 Charles II signed the charter which granted Connecticut land from Massachusetts to Virginia, and from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. John Winthrop went dancing home to shock New Haven and New Netherland with his news when King Charles II promptly gave the land to his brother James, Duke of York and Albany.

The story goes.....

Connecticut was not about to give up its valuable charter. After James II had become King of England, on Oct. 26, 1687, Sir Edmund Andros, James' agent now appointed governor of all of New England, traveled to Hartford with an armed force of 70 men to seize the CT charter. During the hot debates between CT leaders and the governor's men in Butler's Tavern, suddenly the candles were snuffed and the room went into total darkness. Moments later, when the candles were re-lit, the charter was gone!

Assemblyman Nathaniel Stanley had grabbed the precious charter and handed it out the window to Captain Joseph Wadsworth who hid it safely inside a stately old white oak tree on the Wyllys estate in Hartford. One version of the story says that a copy of the charter had been made and the copy was given up to Andros while the original remained in the hands of CT.

The white oak tree (Quercus alba) became known as the Charter Oak. It lived another 150 years until it fell over in a storm on August 21, 1856. All of Connecticut went into a period of civic mourning when it toppled over. A funeral service was held in honor of the Charter Oak. An honor guard was placed around the remains; Colt's Band of Hartford played a funeral dirge; an American flag was attached to the shattered trunk and, at sunset, all of the bells of Hartford sounded in mourning knell. When the rings of the tree were counted, the oak was found to be nearly 1,000 years old.

Today, the original royal charter is preserved in an ornate frame made of Charter Oak wood and is displayed in the State Museum of CT History. Several "descendants" of the Charter Oak are growing on the grounds of the CT State Capitol and in Hartford's Bushnell Park. A special Colt revolver including wood of the Charter Oak was built. Today the Charter Oak is the CT state tree and it appears on the back of the CT quarter.

Marni ~ It was thoughtful of you to post about the awful VA campus tragedy, and I know all of us were concerned for the families and friends of those who died. I also hope your own memories did not cost you sleep.
And good luck on the flooding problem! We used to have seasonal flooding problems when we lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia.

JoanP ~ Congrats on your new grandchild! How very terrific!

Back to the book: Am I the only one who thought the aside on Oliver Cromwell was somewhat off subject. The section on the decisions made by the governing council of the Netherlands seemed to me to be hard to follow.

I'm still unsure exactly how events unfolded when the English took over New York. Was that information clear to everyone else?

No, I don't think that the Cromwell plan was off topic as it ruined Van der Honck's plans to have the Dutch States save New Amsterdam. When Cromwell decided to bury the Dutch and take over their places in the world, he planned first to build up the British navy and go after the Dutch in the English Channel; the men at the Hague got off the topic of New Amsterdam having their own governor and laws just like the Netherlands. Then, Cromwell ordered the Dutch never to put their boats in at any English port and to hang their flags at half-mast in honor of England. Cromwell planned to take over New Amsterdam and all of the Dutch owned land in the new world. With all this going on, the ministers of the Dutch state decided to have the West Indian Co build up their ships and to help fight the British. And, then, sly old Cromwell saw what a great port he could have in Jamaica and also control the slave trade that came from Africa. He also recognized that New Amsterdam(New York City) was going to control a great deal of the Atlantic ship traffic with their having control of the beaver pelt shipping plus what ever else they sent to Amsterdam. This is all a sort of puzzle of events in different countries. Its amazing how one little happening in one country can affect the whole world and change the good plans of many other countries.

About your question of how the British took over New York, I may not have read that far yet. I am somewhat behind but I will look at my book again later tonight. Have been on the phone talking to two old friends, who live far away, for the last hour.

Mippy: Thank you. Thank goodness, the rain has stopped and things will be drying out. My dehumidifier is still going night and day.

I do agree with Ann about the Oliver Cromwell section. He really became the de facto king for some years, as Lord Protector after the English Civil War, and had visions of England as a world power, an empire. He had a great deal to do with the creation of the British Navy. Why shouldn't England control the Atlantic trade? As Ann told us beautifully, Cromwell created such trouble for the Dutch that they were forced to change their plans for New Netherland.

Do you suppose that this is why Shorto entitled his book The Island at the Center of the World? It is not just a history of Manhattan or of New Netherland, but a history of the world related to them - how their history came to be because of world events.

Oliver Cromwell died in 1658. His son Richard succeeded him as Lord Protector, but not for long. He was forced to resign in 1659, and not long after Charles II became King during the Restoration. But Oliver Cromwell's vision didn't die. Charles II put his brother James at the head of the Admiralty and James carried on a plan of controlling the Atlantic Rim with ideas from men like George Downing.

The "Articles of Capitulation" are now in our "Resources on the Internet" - at the bottom of the left hand column.

Oh, my lord, I just read this about Oliver Cromwell re what happened to his body after Charles II was restored to the throne:

"In 1661, Oliver Cromwell's body was exhumed from Westminster Abbey, and was subjected to the ritual of a posthumous execution. Symbolically, this took place on January 30; the same date that Charles I had been executed. His body was hung in chains at Tyburn. Finally, his disinterred body was thrown into a pit, while his severed head was displayed on a pole outside Westminster Abbey until 1685. Afterwards the head changed hands several times, before eventually being buried in the grounds of Sidney Sussex College, Cambridge, in 1960."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Cromwell

More about this macabre post-mortem:

http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/museums/cromwell/online/

The British took Nieuw Amsterdam in the usual way. They employed "gunboat diplomacy." They showed up in the harbor one day with a fleet and fired a few shots of warning. Peter flew the flag of surrender. A British admiral then appeared in a longboat to take command of the city and the government.

The British remained until a day in October 1779 when they marched to the Battery and rowed out to ships waiting in the harbor to take them home. The day has been called "Evacuation Day" and many New Yorkers still celebrate the Day in Colonial bars such as Fraunces Tavern and Mc Sorley's.

MIPPY: I like the long discussions of what's going on in Europe, since I know so little about it. Although Shorto certainly goes into a lot more detail than is needed for his story. He's nothing!! You should have been in the Rembrandt's Eyes discussion, where the author would devote pages to anyone who crossed Rembrandt's path in even the most minor way.

I think I understand what happened immediately when the British took over. Then it gets confusing! He says New Amsterdam changed hands (Dutch to British or British to Dutch) five times(!!??!!) Probably just as well that he doesn't try to describe that in detail! I'd be REALLY confused.

What do you think of Stuyvesant's role? Wanting to defend New Amsterdam to the death? Then, when he's forced to yield, in trouble with his bosses for yielding?

What do you think of our new villain, Mr. Downing? A slimy sort who got in Cromwell's good graces by going after Royalists, then got back into King Charles II's good graces by ratting out his commonwealth friends. Then used that favor to double-cross his uncle Winthrop (who had previously double-crossed Stuyvesant to get a Charter for Connecticut). Are you clear on all that?

MARNI: the story of the Charter Oak is fascinating! I wonder what would have happened if the Charter had held?

The council records of the dutch-english-dutch-english are fascinating. The english first rule was all the citizens must have a firm last name caused great confusion with the Dutch citizens. Last names changed at will for them, so they ran around and decided. Many families at this point ended up with several versions. The oldest son might take his fathers first name, but then the second son would use his mothers or grandfathers. Many of the oldest families in this are are related way way back without knowing it. Then they declared English as the language of the land. This was seriously ignored in Albany, etc. I am not altogether sure of Manhattan.. The far end of Long Island had been mostly English for a long time, so language was not a problem. North of New York City in Westchester was inundated with people from Connecticut hoping to better farm land. Lots of court suits up there. Then the churches got involved.. and that was a serious problem.. As you can see, The English proclaimed they owned it, but not many of the actual residents other than the politicians paid much attention.

Good morning - catching up, slowly but surely - just finished the Chapter before New York - "Booming" last night and can tell the end for the Dutch is near. Cromwell has sent the four frigates and many soldiers, but weather has kept them at sea. By the time they get to Boston, the Dutch and the English had achieved peace. Nut it's just a matter of time, isn't it?

I was thinking last night how things might have been different had Stuyvesant not been directing Dutch affairs in Manhattan - someone like van der Donck for example - or the representative government under two mayors. Shorto really paints the blackest picture of Peter Stuyvesant, doesn't he? Did you know all of this before reading the book? His intolerance, his prejudice and disregard for the rights of slaves - and the Indians spell the end of the Dutch colony, as I see it. Taking New Sweden was the death knell.
An aside - "New Amstel" sounded familiar - Amstel beer. A quick search - "The brewery was founded on June 11, 1870 in Amsterdam and named after the Amstel River, the waters of which also served for refrigeration.".) My contribution to this fascinating discussion this morning -

Tomorrow we leave for Tennessee - a quick visit to see the grandchildren - and Meanma needs to hold the new baby when the little ones aren't around. Thank you Mippy, I'll give little Brooks MacGregor a hug from you! Plan to take my book on the plane and read "New York" then. (Bruce, born in New York and raised in Connecticut has been eying my book. Will have to share with him.) Hopefully my laptop connection will not fail and I can catch up with you all tomorrow evening. What a fantastic discussion this has been! Thank you, everyone of you!
Love,
Meanma

It isn't really clear what happened to van der Donck - no records - but wouldn't his wife lived to tell? The idea that he was killed by Indians, for whom he had such understanding and respect was so ironical. As Shorto pointed out - Indians from all over responded to Stuyvesant's taking of New Sweden - and they didn't know van der Donck from Adam - from Stuyvesant!

MARNI, I loved the Connecticut story, so quintessentially American. Grab the charter, hide it in an oak and turn a bland face to the Duke of York's agents!

Now we have another man to join Kieft as someone to despise and loathe. The liar, turncoat, and betrayer of friends George Downing. It fairly made me grit my teeth to learn that Downing Street was named after this despicable man. Grrr..

The West India Company continued to show the same blindness and stupidity toward New Netherlands that had marked their tenure there from the beginning. Winthrop returns with a charter from Charles II of England, granting Winthrop the Dutch colony! The Company responds to Stuyvesants concern by advising him to ‘shore up his defenses’, w/o sending him either ships or troops to allow him to do so. The West India Company deserved to lose this one; they virtually gave it away by their neglect.

I don't think Shorto portrayed Stuyvesant only in a negative way. Stuyvesant was loyal and believed in respect for authority. This loyalty and obedience to the DWI Company policies is what made him so unpopular with the settlers. Yes, he had all the narrowness of a man raised in the Calvinist doctrines to make matters worse. But, ironically, it was his virtues that did him the most harm.

His ideals led him to demand the ridiculous, and I have a hard time imagining he thought for a minute the colonists would agree. Insisting the colonists should fight to the death for the Dutch West Indies Company, as anything else would be ‘disapproved of’ at home. Oh, yeah. That really went over well.

(

Babi

Justin: "Gunboat Diplomacy." What an appropriate term. It must have looked to some - such as the States General - that Stuyvesant simply handed over the colony to the English when they showed up with force offshore.

As JoanK, Stephanie, & Babi explained, a lot more happened behind the scenes. I think that if Stuyvesant had had any backing at all, he would have fought to the death for his company and country. Look at how he had fought so valiantly earlier in his Carribean career when he lost his leg. He was a warrior. But his fellow colonists did not feel such loyalty to the company and did not want to die. I could not blame them. It didn't seem the company understood the value of the colony despite its exports. It seems that when the company compared its value to others colonies, such as those that provided sugar, spices, and slaves, New Netherland didn't cut it. Stuyvesant could not fight the war by himself. Just think, though, the colonists had to sign they would be loyal to England.

Wasn't that interesting to read how the colony changed hands back and forth between Dutch and English 5 times!!?? I had no idea!!

Stephanie: How interesting about "The english first rule was all the citizens must have a firm last name caused great confusion with the Dutch citizens." Personally, I'm grateful that it ended up that firm last names were required. How confusing the Dutch naming system sounds!

As for language, I suppose one must learn to speak what is required. If one could get by with Dutch, surrounded by people who speak and write in Dutch, Dutch would suffice. From what you've said, it sounds like that is what happened in the Albany area for many years. The conquering nation forcing their language on inhabitants - certainly was nothing new. I think of the Romans and Latin in Britain and then later the Normans and French there for awhile. Interesting today to see a resurgence of interest in native languages - such as Irish and Welsh, tribal languages in America, etc.

Babi: You gave such an excellent picture of Stuyvesant. That George Downing was something! And to think he graduated from the first class at Harvard! John Winthrop, Jr. was another one. It made me laugh to see how he was one of the negotiators when Nicolls took over New Netherland. Boy, did Stuyvesant misjudge him! Stuyvesant had misjudged van der Donck, too! Maybe he was not a good judge of character?

JoanP: I'm glad you're catching up. Hurry, we're nearly done! But, how difficult with a beautiful new baby in the family. Give little Brooks a kiss for us!

You and others do point out the dark side, as well as the strong attributes, of Stuyvesant. I was interested to read that one of the groups he most particularly despised was the Lutherans. (I was raised Lutheran for a number of years.) I'm not sure, however, that things would have been much worse for New Netherland if another director had been there instead of Stuyvesant, considering the Anglo-Dutch wars and England's growing desire for trading power and monopoly.

Shorto was not able to tell us much about van der Donck's death, was he. No letters about it from his wife. It seems that much of the information provided comes from court records that survived time, fire, sea water, etc. What a picture we saw of the records being saved here and there. It seems a miracle that there is anything left today. Just think of the huge fires that burned down so much of old New York. Many of the documents have been found in foreign countries. Perhaps someday we'll see more personal information about the families involved - maybe from letters found in attics.

Well, at least the Dutch colonial documents that have been found have been officially designated a "National Treasure."

I thought I'd list the Articles here for you to see since some have been mentioned. They are so interesting! These are what the Dutch had to agree to when the English took over. It seems that Peter Stuyvesant played an important rule in arranging for these.

Do you think the Dutch got a good deal? How do you think the Dutch colonists felt about this?

Articles of Capitulation on the Reduction of New Netherland [General Entries, I., 1664-1665, p.23, In Secretary of State's Office, Albany, N.Y.]

These Articles following were consented to by the persons hereunder subscribed at the Governor's Bowry, August 27th Old Style, 1664.

1. We consent that the States-General or West India Company shall freely enjoy all farms and houses (except such as are in the forts), and that within six months they shall have free liberty to transport all such arms and ammunition as now do belong to them, or else they shall be paid for them.

2. All public houses shall continue for the uses which they are now for.

3. All people shall still continue free denizens and enjoy their lands, houses, goods, shipps, wheresoever they are within this country, and dispose of them as they please.

4. If any inhabitant have a mind to remove himself he shall have a year and six weeks from this day to remove himself, wife, children, servants, goods, and to dispose of his lands here.

5. If any officer of State, or Public Minister of State, have a mind to go for England, they shall be transported, freight free, in his Majesty's frigates, when these frigates shall return thither.

6. It is consented to, that any people may freely come from the Netherlands and plant in this country, and that Dutch vessels may freely come hither, and any of the Dutch may freely return home, or send any sort of merchandise home in vessels of their own country.

7. All ships from the Netherlands, or any other place, and goods therein, shall be received here and sent hence after the manner which formerly they were before our coming hither for six months next ensuing.

8. The Dutch here shall enjoy the liberty of their consciences in Divine Worship and church discipline.

9. No Dutchman here, or Dutch ship here, shall, upon any occasion, be prest to serve in war, against any nation whatever.

10. That the townsmen of the Manhatoes shall not have any soldier quartered upon them without being satisfied and paid for them by their officers, and that at this present, if the fort be not capable of lodging all the soldiers, then the Burgomaster, by his officers, shall appoint some houses capable to receive them.

11. The Dutch here shall enjoy their own customs concerning their inheritances.

12. All publique writings and records which concern the inheritances of any people, or the reglement of the church, or poor, or orphans, shall be carefully kept by those in whose hands they are, and such writings as particularly concern the States-General, may, at any time, be sent to them.

13. No judgment that hath passed any judicature here shall be called in question, but if any conceive that he hath not had justice done him, if he apply himself to the States-General the other party shall be bound to answer for ye supposed injury.

14. If any Dutch living here shall, at any time, desire to travel or traffic into England, or any place or plantation in obedience to his Majesty of England, or with the Indians, he shall have (upon his request to the Governor) a certificate that he is a free denizen of this place, and liberty to do so.

15. If it do appear that there is a public engagement of debt by the town of the Manhatoes, and a way agreed on for the satisfying of that engagement, it is agreed that the same way proposed shall go on, and that the engagement shall be satisfied.

16. All inferior civil officers and magistrates shall continue as now they are (if they please), till the customary time of new election, and then new ones to be chosen, by themselves, provided that such new chosen magistrates shall take the oath of allegiance to his Majesty of England before they enter upon their office.

17. All differences of contracts and bargains made before this day by any in this country, shall be determined according to the manner of the Dutch.

18. If it does appear that the West India Company of Amsterdam do really owe any sums of money to any persons here, it is agreed that recognition and other duties payable by ships going for the Netherlands be continued for six months longer.

19. The officers, military and soldiers, shall march out, with their arms, drums beating and colors flying, and lighted matches, and if any of them will plant they shall have 50 acres of land set out for them, if any of them will serve any as servants, they shall continue with all safety, and become free denizens afterwards.

20. If at any time hereafter the King of Great Britain and the States of the Netherland, do agree that this place and country be re-delivered into the hands of the said States whensoever his Majesty will send his commands to re-deliver it, it shall immediately be done.

21. That the town of Manhatans shall choose Deputies, and those Deputies shall have free voices in all public affairs, as much as any other Deputies.

22. Those who have any propriety in any houses in the fort of Orange, shall (if they please) slight the fortifications there, and then enjoy all their houses, as all people do where there is no fort.

23. If there be any soldiers that will go into Holland, and if the Company of West India, in Amsterdam, or any private persons here will transport them into Holland, then they shall have a safe passport from Colonel Richard Nicolls, Deputy Governor under his Royal Highness and the other Commissioners, to defend the ships that shall transport such soldiers, and all the goods in them from any surprisal or acts of hostility to be done by any of his Majesty's ships or subjects.

That the copies or the King's grant to his Royal Highness and the copy of his Royal Highness' commission to Col Richard Nicolls, testified by two Commissioners more, and Mr. Winthrop to be true copies, shall be delivered to the Honorable Mr. Stuyvesant, the present Governor, on Monday next by eight of the clock in the morning, at the Old mill.

On these articles being consented to and signed by Col. Richard Nicolls, Deputy Governor to his Royal Highness, within two hours after, the fort and town called New Amsterdam, upon the Isle of Manhatoes, shall be delivered into the hands of the said Col Richard Nicolls by the service of such as shall be by him deputed by his hand and seal.

John De Decker,
Robert Carr,
Nich: Verleet,
Geo: Cartwright,
Sam: Megapolensis,
John Winthrop,
Cornelius Steenwick,
Sam: Willys,
Oloffe Stevensen Kortlant,
Thomas Clarke,
Jaams Cousseau,
John Pincheon.

Those articles of capitulation actually sound pretty fair. Just too sad for the Dutch but certainly giving them the chance to run for office when new elections came up, should they want. Politically, they might have retaken control of New Amsterdam and made other treaties for New York. I wonder if these rules also applied to any other ethnicities living in the area. In other words, did the English think that everyone was Dutch who made their homes there and were they included in the rules? Was it the commissioners plus Gov. Stuyvesant of New Amsterdam who signed this and of what ethnicity were each of them.

In the end, its all about control, power and greed. Look at how fast the English broke the treaty of Munster and I forget the name of other one, but it didn't take long. And the beat goes on and on!!

I thought the Articles of Capitulation surprisingly liberal. I wonder if that was typical for those times? I have the impression that victors were not usually so generous. But them, it probably makes a big difference that New Netherlands capitulated without a fight I sus pect if Stuyvesant had fired on the English, the Articles would have been much different.

It is so satifying to note that the Articles confirm the goals for which Van Donck had struggled so long. A vindication and a victory for him…and a memorial, in a way. Moreover, Stuyvesant, in losing his position as governor of the colony, made an about face and worked to preserve the liberties that the colonists had gained. Between them and the English, he was firmly on the side of the colonists.

Babi

The articles were wonderful. They basically allowed the dutch to live as they had before.. But at some point in time, they did try to change the inheritance laws. Not sure just when. The English did not like women to hold things in their own names.. So the New York laws did change to reflect this, but I can find no date to pin it down on. I just know that they went from women holding things and land in their own names and then boom... into their husbands names. The original dutch allowed women to inherit from their parents and if they were rich when they married, they did not have to turn this over to their husbands and then after the english took over, at some point. they did. Many Dutch women were quite rich in their own rights. This has been such fun.. I learned a lot about New Netherlands that I did not know.. We are busy in Dutch-Colonies web list with details on Adam Brouwer Berkhoven and he was a very prominent man in this period, although Shorto does not mention him.

Have you run across the name Kuykendahl??

Ann, My records show no Kuykendal, but the great majority of my records are from the Albany,Schenectady, Schoharie church books. I have a small amount of Lutheran and French from Manhattan and the Brooklyn as well as the New Amsterdam originals as well.. The name sounds more German or Baltic than Dutch.

My friend who is listening to the book mentioned it to me, along with several others. Her relatives were all down in the New Amsterdam area from early on. Its my understanding that it is Dutch but German names are so similar to the Dutch names, I can't always tell. She does have many relatives from Germany also. From the Wurthemburg and Baden area, which is where my German ancestors also come from.

My German ancestors were Palatines. They came in 1710 or so, so past the date of this book. They were interesting though. Talk about covering their bets. The Palatine families in the Revolutionary war tended to send a son to each side.. That way no matter who won, they wre covered. They were shocked when they realized the losing side had to go to Canada, England or jail.. There is a wonderful Stone Fort in Schoharie that had the names of the original settlers done in stone around the outside. Then after the war, they mutiliated any whose families left to go to Canada.. Sad..but the fact is that a good many of the families came back one generation later.

Sorry I wasn’t here yesterday. The heat went out last night, and I couldn’t sleep. As soon as we got it fixed, I conked out!

What interesting posts! Yes, I was surprised at how comparably liberal the terms were. If Stuyvesant was responsible, the Dutch Manhattanites owe him. But yes, it didn’t say anything about people of other nationalities. Or were they included in “Dutch”?

I’m not surprised the English imposed last names. I can see the Dutch system would be fine in a small area, where everyone knew each other. But I’m surprised it didn’t cause trouble in Holland and in trade with other countries.

But what a shame the English imposed their inheritance laws on women! The Dutch were indeed ahead of their time in many things!

Yes, Downing is a piece of work, isn’t he. Stuyvesant is interesting: so narrow in so many ways, but clinging to his idea of honor. And he really cared for the colony. Why not – it was his fiefdom.

Stephanie: do you have a different picture of Stuyvesant from your reading?

My friend also mentions the Palatines Association?? She is a member and has attended several annual gatherings around the country.

Ann, there are several Palatine Associations. I used to belong to Palatines to America which has interesting journals, but the editor wrote a long article back in the 80's praising Hitler for his wonderful record keeping and general ability to keep the country on its feet and I freaked out.. quit after complaining about the tenor of the article. He was convinced that Hitler had a bad rep and I was convinced he was nuts.. so,, No more Palatine to America for me..

I was totally surprised to learn that the Dutch re-took Manhattan a few years later, and then gave it back. The back-and-forth control continued for three decades, changing hands five times. (I don’t remember any of this from my American History classes in school.)

Shorto sees this period of constantly changing governments as solidifying the unique identity of the inhabitants. “Who’s in charge?’ was of little importance and would change shortly; the people got on with their business.. And throughout the various changes, they continued to insist that their hard-won rights be respected.

And then the two long-time enemies and rivals wind up - united in the persons of William of Orange and Mary Stuart, daughter of James - ruling England. How ironic.

Babi

Ironic is the correct comment here. Seems like the human race has been making similar changes and living through them pretty well throughout the history of the world.

Steph, I would have quit the Palatine Society,too, if I thought someone was defending Hitler. It takes all kinds, doesn't it?

Oh, we've had the most gorgeous weather here in CT this weekend. I've been off joyriding and doing yardwork. Lots of comments here to catch up on!

Weren't those Articles of Capitulation something, Ann, Babi, and Stephanie!! They do stress the "Dutch" but that makes sense to me for a document like this because it was between nations. The Dutch officially had owned the colony and were surrendering it even though people from other countries lived in New Netherland. "A vindication and a victory for [van der Donck]....and a memorial." I love that. And then Stuyvesant working for the good of the people to preserve their liberties.

Babi: I had never learned about all that back and forth either. It's making sense to me now why New York was the next to last state (I think R.I. was last) to ratify the Constitution years after all this happened. NY wanted to ensure their liberties as they had all those years before. It was New York that insisted on the Bill of Rights in the Constitution. They agreed to ratify only when they were promised that the Bill of Rights would be added. And it was. They had been through changes of government - that's for sure - and they wanted assurance of their own individual rights.

It certainly was ironic about William of Orange, Stadtholder of the Netherlands, and his wife Mary, sister of Charles II and James II, ending up king and queen of England when you think of all the Anglo-Dutch wars such a short while prior. I had always heard that they had been offered the jobs. But Shorto provides info that makes it sound as thought William basically forced himself on the English throne through power moves.

Stephanie & Ann: I've never heard of the Palatines before. Were they a religious group? cultural?

My understanding from my friend is that the Palatines is an area in the SW of Germany??? Near the Black Forest and Wurthemburg and Baden which is where my ancestors come from. I guess we could 'google' them! And here's the list of the Palatine info on 'google'! The Palatines

WHO WERE THE PALATINES a got a brief history of the people and their area of Germany and how they immigrated to America (our garden of Eden)!

Thanks, Ann, I'm going to read the article.

Ann, There are several excellent resources about the Palatines who came to the US around 1710. The names are well maintained and since they were so poor and were brought here originally to help with manufacturing tar, they had subsistance lists and lists from the ministers who came with them and when they left what amounted to a prison camp and struck out on their own, again there were lists. So.. there is much much information with names available.

Just see how pre-conceptions can color ones thinking! “As late as the 1750’s, English officials in that area needed to find Dutch speakers to help them treat with Indians, as Dutch was still the only European language the Indians spoke.” Why had I been assuming that the Dutch, et al, had learned some of the Indian language in order to trade, and not realized that the Indians had also learned the Dutch language.

The image of Indians speaking Dutch really startled me, and yet I was fully aware they were an intelligent and capable people. Of course they would learn the language! Duh!

Another blow to my preconceptions! SANTA’S RED SUIT ORIGINATED WITH A COCA-COLA AD??!! I am shattered.

Born ‘35, I grew up with that particular Santa, and never knew he was not the original. The things I am learning...

Babi

Babi -- I hate to 'rain on your parade' but the CocaCola and Santa is an Urban legend. http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

Besides I have a picture if me sitting on Santa's lap at a 1932 Rotary Christmas Party

So, Patwest, Shorto was WRONG! Good catch! Ahah! Interesting article.

Can you show us your picture of you sitting on Santa's lap?

Babi: I was surprised to read that, too, about the Indians speaking Dutch - although I had known from other reading that some had learned English. And some spoke French.

PATWEST: what's going on! You told me in Arlington that we were the same age and I wasn't born until 1933 (LOL)!

But I'm really glad the Santa Claus image wasn't invented by Coca Cola!

I was startled at Manhattan going back and forth five times too! I guess anyone with a gunboat was able to capture the island.

It's kind of weird when you think about it - the changeover from one government to another back and forth. The people pledged allegiance to the government in power, it sounds like. It's strange to me that people could take that lightly. But ever Peter Stuyvesant must have done it and he had been so loyal to....well, to the company, I guess. The company was, to some extent, the government. But, in the end, his new home was the most important thing. When does allegiance to one's country die?

JoanK, Not this Pat -- I was born in FL in 1928, just before a hurricane.

Babi can you LOL

Marni does your Hubby speak Dutch ???.

Well, that was quite an interesting article about Santa Claus, Kris Kringle, et al. The speed of Santa's evolvement was mind boggling! Sort of the like the changing of the government or company controls of Manhatten. Kept my head swirling!

Amazing that the Indians learned Dutch but I guess we should have expected that since we already knew that some of them learned English. I believe they also knew French in Canada.

I may not be here often after this morning as my company is arriving this afternoon and will be here until May 2. I will try to peek in occasionally though.

The settlers and the Indians learned each others language in the upstate area.. There were converts from the Indians by this time, that married some of the settlers.. Almost always females who married male settlers, since the women were still outnumbered big time. I have at least one and probably two Indian ties that way. The Dutch were pragmatists and there seems to have been no great disturbance in the community from the Indian converts or brides. French.. now the french and the Indians were really really close and someone once told me that certain Indian tribes in Canada still have a lot of french in their spoken language.

I guess we can forgive Shorto for not checking every statement he made. At least the Santa Claus/Coca Cola image is not a major point in this history. But look how hiring someone poorly qualified to translate historical records can mess up our history.

Re. Van de Kemp’s 19th cent. translation of the Dutch records; ….”a fiasco of small errors, howlers and massive unexplained gaps - that were worse than useless - worse because they were assumed to be adequate…” I'm beginning to think that all statements of fact should begin with, "To the best of our knowledge....".

Babi

Babi, I am sure of it. When I check my records and many many books on the area,, I found years ago a strange and wonderful thing. I was looking up an ancestor, found what I wanted and copied it down for my records. Then about a month later, I found another reference, looked it up, wrote it down and then boom.. realized that it was word for word exactly what the other source said. Neither of them mentioned a basic source, both seemed to be claiming the same statement and boom.. I started looking up this one person in about a dozen venues.. And are you surprised to find that 8 of the references were exactly the same. This means wherever they original found this could have made a small mistake and all those years later, it was regarded as gospel since the books all said the same thing.

We just have to do the best we can with what we have, STEPHANIE. I think we can trust that most of our scholarly informants are better qualified than Van de Kemp was, to say the least.

Babi

Jerry: No, Bob doesn't speak any Dutch at all. His father didn't either. However, my neighbors speak Dutch. They are immigrants from the Netherlands and visit Holland often. Actually, Hans, the husband, came to America via Indonesia where he worked in a plant nursery. They carry on some of their Dutch practices. Hans wears wooden shoes around the yard. They light real candles on their Christmas tree.

Stephanie & Babi: It's not surprising that multiple historians use the same sources when you look at the amazing journey of the Dutch colonial records. Many records of old events are so very rare. As you've mentioned, historians often have to piece together bits of info and make guesses on what happened. A new bit of info discovered can change the whole picture.

And, as Shorto pointed out, the expertise of the translator in the case of documents in an old foreign language can make all the difference. It seems that we readers must trust our material as best we can based on references, understanding that we might see the "facts" change down the road.

I love the way new information has been uncovered recently about a number of America's first colonies. Shorto's book has me all revved up to read more about our beginnings. Also, because it is the 400th anniversary of the founding of Jamestown, VA, with Queen Elizabeth coming to visit for the ceremony, there have been a number of TV programs on about our early days.

Did anyone see the Sunday Morning TV segment about Roanoke this week? Bob taped it but we haven't watched it yet. I just started reading Roanoke: Solving the Mystery of the Lost Colony by Lee G. Miller and it's wonderfully interesting so far.

Well, it's about time to wrap things up in our discussion.

What's the most important or interesting thing you have learned from reading and discussing The Island at the Center of the World?

Marni don,t youstart that we had one during war time and tree whend up in flames LOL

The Klompen or wooden shoes are vere comphie if well made I use to have Hand made once years ago.I speak Dutch but Anne does not

I think the most interesting thing I learned was how much our history depends on who is writing it. I'm thinking not of the errors mentioned above, but of the neglect of the history of the Dutch in America by English (or anglophile) historians.

Second would be that I will no longer think of American history in isolation, apart from what's going on in the rest of the world.

STEPHANIE: that's an amazing incident: eight authors quoted the same source and NOT ONE OF THEM GAVE A REFERENCE TO IT! Maybe it was the only source available, but we'll never know, since they don't tell us what it was. That violates everything I learned as a scholar!

Jerry: I look at those wooden shoes and can't imagine how they could be comfortable. But, my friend says the same thing - that they are very comfortable. Yikes, your tree burned?! I always worry about my friend's house when he lights the candles on the tree. But they do it every year. It's been about 35 years now that we've lived across the street from them. Fingers crossed!

Cudos to you both for making this a most interesting discussion. It has been so pleasurable to come in each day and find a new piece of history plus the stories of the ancestors of these founders of a new way of life.

For me,the most heartwarming story in this book is the love, hope and loyalty that Adrein Van der Donck brings to this new land. Even after he is sort of banished from the political scene, he seems to have found ways and means to continue making a profound impact. He reminds me of Ben Franklin when he is ambassadoring at the Hague for New Amsterdam and its citizens. And, he reminds me of Tom Jefferson in his careful study of the flora and fauna, the journaling of all that info so that future immigrants have the advantage of his knowledge. And, last but not least, his primal curiousity concerning the Indians whom he seems to consider his brothers in this new world. Learning their language and their ways of worship plus how they go about making agreements and treaties with their fellow Indians plus the new white men who have come to find a better land to live in.

Like JoanK, I will never look at history the same way, after discovering this little known story of the real founders of New Amsterdam and Albany and Schenectady.

To all who have made this month so interesting, Steph, Jerry, Babi, Mippy, PatH, etc etc, thank you. I hope to see you all again soon in an another discussion. For the next week, I will be busy with my houseful of company. The first two arrived yesterday and the 15 month old has completely undone the house. We have pretty much put everything up and away from his too curious hands. He is a very pleasant little fellow and will brighten our lives for a little while. We are most happy to have him and his mom visiting. Tonight, his grandmother, aunt and uncle arrive. Its getting crowded in here but we'll be fine.

I loved the idea of this book getting out some of the early history. When I started with my genealogical work, it never occurred to me that the Dutch had mad great constributions to our country. Then when I started discovering all of my ancestry, I was furious that noone had ever mentioned this in any history course I had ever taken. I really believe that more and more of our genuine early history is now coming forward and the pilgrims can take their place along with a lot of other groups..This has been a wonderful discussion.

This has been one of the most rewarding books, and discussions, I have enjoyed here. I learned so much that was wholly new to me. At last the Dutch contribution to the 'American way' can be seen and appreciated.

But most of all, I am glad to have found the 'bigger than life' figure of Adrien Van der Donck. I agree with ANN; he often reminded me of Thomas Jefferson. Now that his story is known and has been published, I hope and expect that the history of the Dutch colony will receive its rightful attention in our shools.

MARNI, JOAN, thank you so much for your excellent preparation and presentation. (I definitely detect the professional teacher in our 'Questions'.)

Babi

Marni and JoanK ~ A great big warm thank you to both of you for this excellent discussion. I had hoped to participate more than I did, but reading all the posts was a wonderful experience, and really gave much more meaning to the book.

I loved this book and I loved this discussion!

Every page of the book offered an intriguing piece of history that I had never known. What a surprise to discover what an impact the Dutch had on America. What a pleasure to read about a new American patriot and hero. How fascinating to learn about how powerful the Dutch empire was in its golden era and what an important role they played on the world stage.

For me, I think the most important thing is that the book inspired me to find out more about my husband's Dutch colonial ancestors. The date is set - in 2 1/2 weeks, we're going with friends to visit again his family's old Dutch colonial farmhouse in Englewood, NJ. And while we're in the vicinity, we're also going to the Hamilton Custom House and probably to Peter Stuyvesant's grave. I can't wait!

I'd like to thank all of you who participated in the discussion, making it one of the most fascinating and fun book discussions I have been in. We started with a huge group of folks interested in New York and whittled ourselves down to a smaller group of committed readers - Ann, Babi, Stephanie, Jerry, Justin, JoanP - who faithfully participated and who offered some intriguing, sometimes brilliant insights, thoughtful questions and answers, and who shared wonderful personal and family stories with us. You really brought this discussion alive! And those of you who participated when you had a chance - thank you. Every opinion made the discussion more interesting.

Ann: Enjoy your family's visit!

JoanK: Thank you so much for leading this discussion with me. I enjoyed working with you so much!

Patwest: Thank you so much for all of your hard work maintaining our site. We appreciate it so much!

Oh dear! I had the mistaken idea that this discussion would go to the end of the month! We've been out of town for the past week - because of this little guy - Brooks MacGregor Pearson - who weighed in a week ago down in Memphis.

I am so sorry - and will continue to read to the end. Just in case you are gone when I get back in here later tonight, I want to be sure to thank JoanK and Marni! Couldn't have asked for better discussion leaders! And the participants who brought so much personal background and those who made such great observations - you made the discussion really come alive.

My greatest discovery - on a personal level, learning about the part the Dutch played in the settlement of North Jersey where I grew up - and to echo Babi and others - meeting Mr. van der Donck - a great American, overlooked in all history books!

Of course I was familiar with Peter Stuyvesant - but so much credit goes to van der Donck for the initial success of the colony. He treated the Indians as the intelligent beings they were with respect. He took the time to learn their language - and in turn, they learned Dutch!

Can't help but wonder if things would have been different had he and Stuyvesant been able to work together to form a stronger colony. Maybe the English would have taken over eventually any way, sooner or later.

Off to finish the last chapter of the book, but just had to come in before finishing to read your posts - and again, to thank you all for adding so much!

Love,
Joan

My thanks to JoanK and Marni for an interesting discussion. I wish I could have been in for more of it. But sometimes it's not possible to do that. The participants contributed with personal knowledge and insight. My thanks to them as well.

Marni and JoanK thanks for being here to lead us into temptation LOL we did enyoi the time here interesting at times a friend had books on Rise of Dutch Empire by Morsley in three parts well have fun and be good

This has been such a great discussion, I have a tear in my eye to think of it ending!

STEPHANIE, ANN, BABI, MIPPY, JOANP, JUSTIN, JERRY, PAT WEST, PATH (and who am I forgetting?) you have been great participants. I’ve learned so much from you.

And MARNI, what can I say! it’s sheer joy to be along on any discussion you lead. Your enthusiasm, and great ability to find fascinating material are such a great resource for us all. Thank you!

Ahhh, JOAN, little Brooks is adorable. Such a beautiful baby.

Babi

Thanks, Babi - I miss being down with him, terribly. This is the first grandchild not born here in Virginia - close by. It's hard. All I have to hold are the pictures!

I did it! I finished the book - and you are all still here! Well, some of you are still here. I was amazed at the bloodless turnover - expecting the worst. It was really ironic, wasn't it? The same kind of government Van der Donck had wanted all along is what New York ended up with! Wasn't it funny when the Dutch tried to take it back again nine years later?

The Epilogue was great! We really owe a lot to Gehring, don't we? The more time that elapses between the 17th century and the present, the more removed we are from anyone who can read and comprehend the Dutch language as written at the time and the idiom. It wasn't an easy feat to copy from those molding pages either. Can't you see Mr. Shorto sitting at Mr. Gehring's feet as he gathered material for this book? I loved the way the assistant identified Peter Stuyvesant from his handwriting - little anecdotes like that were wonderful!

So after reading the epilogue I have to say, I am most grateful that the true history of the Island at the Center of the World was not lost, rewritten - and I really plan to pass this book around and recommend it to all my New York/New Jersey friends in particular.

Thanks Marni, Joank, thanks to all of , for making this discussion come alive!