Robby

Robby

Robby

He had the certain personality trait which seems to come down to our New Englanders today -- wanting to do what is right whether it makes them popular or not.

Live free or die.

Robby

Robby

Robby

The Broadway musical and maybe movie about the Constitution with, I believe, John Adams telling the story was "1776". Fun play! I was told recently that it came from a book titled "Letters to Abigal". I have another book with the private letters of Abigal and John Adams but its not that one. I am reading at this time, "America Afire" whose first paragraph, nay, sentence, is about John Adams leaving DC at 4am to avoid being at the inaugaration of Jefferson. This book covers the 1890's. I have only read the first chapter of "John Adams" so far. I also have an interesting article about Adams which was in the Ohio Historical magazine last month. But will mention that later.

Harold, I think your typing finger slipped when you were looking up "Lord Carmarthen"-- google gave a number of references to him.

Robby

"I will swim or sink, live or die, survive or perish with my country." Not Massachusetts, not New England, but "my country." He held nothing back. The years in Congress meant the sacrifice of his practice and income, a heavy burden for a man with a family. Even heavier were the long periods of separation from Abigail, whom he addressed as his "Dear Friend" in letters that would arrive in the post rider's bag or a sailing vellel weeks after they were written. The two were virtually in separate worlds, she managing the children and the farm alone in the confusion and upheaval of revolution and he, except for brief leaves of absence, consumed by the relentless grind of duty.

And, what was accomplished, in the end, certainly took patience, fortitude and heroism.

As we travel on our journey do you feel as though you are back in the 18th century and getting a good look at the landscape and the culture of this little village? What impresses you the most?

Did you feel that McCullough gave you all the information about JA's character and personality that you needed to form an opinion?

The Taliban want freedom to worship God as they see fit. Ring a bell?

Robby

Robby

It is not my example of the proper way to worship God, either, but there are others on this earth who think differently. We were very fortunate that there was an ocean between England and our "revolutionaries." Otherwise the result might have been different. In today's technological age, an ocean makes no difference at all.

Robby

• Loved to talk
• Lawyer, farmer, graduate of Harvard, 40 years old and a revolutionary
• Fit and solid
• High forehead, thinning hairline
• Firm chin, sharp nose, keen blue eyes
• Five foot seven, verging on portly
• Plain dressing man
• States pleasures are family, farm, books, writing, pipe and coffee - a glass of Madeira
• Loved long walks and time alone on horseback
• Cared deeply for friends, devoted to wife
• Great-hearted, persevering, uncommon ability, forceful, brilliant
• Honest, independent, frugal, hardworking
• High-spirited, affectionate, vain, cranky, impetuous, stubborn
• Passionate, quick to anger, all-forgiving, good humor
• Subject to spells of despir and prolonged inactivity.
• No social standing, awkward dancer, poor at cards
• No money in his background, never learned to flatter

Is "hard cider" alcoholic?

retreated at a trot covering about eight miles per hour…..They rode through the morning and mid-day, not stopping until 3PM, when they, “suffered our horses to graze…[and] took some refreshments”. They had covered 63 miles. After an hour and a half break, they mounted up and rode off, to cover another seventeen miles by dark.

She……rose at five in the morning…all her life she would do her own sewing, baking, feed her own ducks and chickens, churn her own butter and, of course, children, epidemics, farm work, bills, she did it all, and still wrote and was an avid reader? Come on - this is SUPER WOMAN!

1776 quote:

Samuel Adams was a cousin to John Adams(2nd president of US)

"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, What should be the reward of such sacrifices? If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom -- go from us in peace. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you." -Samuel Adams

How interesting to read that Benjamin Franklin came to Canada to persuade us to join as 'the 14th colony'. Why in heaven's name did he go to Montreal? Why didn't he come to Toronto? Haha, that's only meant to be humorous. I'm a loyal subject of the Queen.

Tiger Tom

Adams recorded in his diary on arrival in Philadelphia that he could not resist the "importunity" to go to the City Tavern…..where a few days later, he first met George Washington. The City Tavern is still there - you can see it by clicking on the Tour in the header.

One of you says that he never used the Alien and Seditions act and the other says he used part of it. Shows how little we actually know of Adams and his Presidency. I have heard and read that he DID use the act, quite often. That while he did not actually propose or actively push it, He was a mover of it behind the scenes. Who knows? The book is a Biography of John Adams and a well written one by an Author who obviously liked his subject a great deal. But should't not only the Book but the Real John Adams be discussed? He was, after all, human and like all humans had some weakness. Being a great man he was able to overcome most of those. Not all of them. So, when he became President he did a few things that he probably would not have normally but for the pressure of the office he held. The total man, I believe, should be discussed. this might make the book much more interesting.

Tiger Tom

• An alliance to be formed with France and Spain
• Government to be assumed by every colony
• Powder mills to be built in every colony
• Declaration of Independency

can you think of any politicians though that have been ministers?.

Oh, forgive me my long posts, but have you all taken the HISTORIC TOUR ABOVE? Did you see the State House, Carpenters' Hall and Christ Church? Philadelphia, thanks in a good part to Benjamin Franklin, had become the recognized center of American thought and ideas, - 30,000 population 23 printing establishments and 7 newspapers, 30 bookshops and 60 some taverns and coffeehouses. I live in a city today with approximately that population and we have no newspapers, one used bookshop (all paperbacks), and about 3 places to eat. Hahaha

For Babi or was that Wiban, here's a good site about Samuel Adams. Samuel Adams. I asked previously if anyone remembers seeing a TV show about the Patriots with Sam Adams being a conspicuous member? How about you?

"Remember all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.

That your sex are naturally tyrannical is a truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute........"

Robby

Richard N. Rosenfeld is the author of American Aurora: A Democratic-Republican Returns: The Suppressed History of Our Nation's Beginnings and The Heroic Newspaper That tried to Report It (New York: St. Martin's Griffin, 1998)

"David McCullough takes us on a dramatic and heroic ride with the founding father he aims to glorify, most effectively through the worshipful phrase "the colossus of independence," which he employs as a chapter title and then falsely attributes to Thomas Jefferson. (This nonexistent quotation has been perpetuated in reviews and even appeared as the cover line on an issue of The New York Times Book Review.)"

Talk about a DEBATE! This is serious stuff we are reading here - what do you think about this article? Do you take this seriously? Has the reading public?

WOW! How about this line:

" Had McCullough chosen, unlike Adams, to attach a higher value to popular democracy and to the Bill of Rights than to the nation's separation from England, he might have described John Adams the way many of the nation's democrats, including Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and Franklin's grandson and protégé, Benjamin Franklin Bache, judged him, that is, as an admirer of monarchy who, in fact, opposed popular democracy and trampled on the Bill of Rights. "

DO YOU FIND YOURSELF ALL OF SUDDEN CHEERING FOR ADAMS OR BOOING ADAMS OR ARE YOU A "MIDDLE OF THE ROADER?"

IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THAT ARTICLE HAROLD JUST BROUGHT HERE, DO SO NOW!!!

Here it is again: THE ADAMS TRYANNY

"This Library of America volume collects the work of one of the founding fathers less well known in our own day for his writing. Yet, "Even more so than Jefferson, who inherited slaves and land, Hamilton made his way in the world by his pen," writes Caleb Crain, the author of "American Sympathy: Men, Friendship, and Literature in the New Nation." Jefferson once wrote, "Hamilton is really a colossus to the anti-republican party" -- this at a moment when Hamilton had defeated him in the court of public opinion with a hail of pamphlets. Crain summarizes Hamilton's position: "For a dozen years, Hamilton stood in relation to the presidency roughly as Laurence Tribe or Richard Posner stands to some of the justices in the Supreme Court today: without holding the office, he was kind enough to help do the thinking necessary for those who did. His power consisted merely in his words," Crain writes.

Hamilton wrote most of "The Federalist." Later, in 1800, Crain concludes, "he assassinated the character of John Adams, his own party's candidate, while Adams's re- election was still pending. And in 1804 his disparagements of Aaron Burr provoked a challenge to a duel, in which Hamilton was killed. He enjoyed writing what he really thought more, perhaps, than a politician should."

From the first sentence of McCullough's beautifully written new book John Adams ("In the cold, nearly colorless light of a New England winter, two men on horseback traveled the coast road below Boston, heading north."), David McCullough takes us on a dramatic and heroic ride with the founding father he aims to glorify, most effectively through the worshipful phrase "the colossus of independence," which he employs as a chapter title and then falsely attributes to Thomas Jefferson. (This nonexistent quotation has been perpetuated in reviews and even appeared as the cover line on an issue of The New York Times Book Review.) To McCullough, Adams' pursuit of French aid was "one of his own proudest efforts," his final receipt of a Dutch loan "simply extraordinary," his unsuccessful tenure as ambassador to Britain (where he failed to negotiate a single commercial agreement) understandable: "Nor could it be imagined that another of his countryman... could have done better." Etc.

"It was 4;00am on March 4--still dark and wintry cold in Washinton--when a fat old man of 65, without retinue or fanfare, settled his sleepy bones into a public statecoach."

The quote above is about when he left DC at the end of his presidency. Seems like both authors used the same way of putting us in a certain stage of Adams life. In one--when he was around 30 and young and just beginning his political life--and the other, coming to the end of his political life.

Jefferson was to remember Adams as “the Colossus of independence>”

When the Second World War--- Came to an end--- We forgave the Germans---And we were friends--- Though they murdered six million--- In the ovens they fried-- The Germans now too--- Have God on their side.

In McCullough's tome, I noticed that he quoted JA as saying that he was known to "become unstrung" when there was a bad thunder and lightning storm brewing outside. Do you think he might have had "ADHD" and no one noticed? Well, at least, hyper and wanting his "Home" to get free of Great Britain. So, he took on being a US founder? Just to keep himself busy and out of trouble?(just kidding!)

"Captain Tucker knew what the Atlantic could deliver up in February; the chances of being hit by a northeaster and driven onto the shoals of Cape Cod, graveyard of ships; the sheer terror of winter storms at sea when freezing spray aloft could turn to ice so heavy as to cause a ship to capsize. Navigation, never a simple matter, became difficult in the extreme from a violently pitching deck and with a horizon distorted by breaking seas, or, in the absence of sun and stars, quite impossible."

Of all the incidents and anecdotes you describe in the life of John Adams, which do you consider the most important?

His voyage across the Atlantic on the frigate Boston in 1778. With his ten-year-old son in tow Adams left Massachusetts and journeyed to France to assume his appointment as commissioner to the Court of King Louis XVI. It was the dead of winter, a dangerous time for an Atlantic crossing under the best of circumstances. It was also the midst of the war and British warships were lying off the coast waiting to capture anyone like him. He'd never been to sea before in his life. And he was going to a world he knew nothing about. He'd never in his life laid eyes on a King or Queen, or the Foreign Minister of a great power, and never set foot in a city of more than 30,000 people. He knew nothing of European politics or diplomacy and didn't speak a word of French-the language of diplomacy. And he had no money. How many other politicians, then or since then, would have done such a thing? And everything that could go wrong on the voyage did go wrong. Perhaps that is why it serves so well as the key to understanding Adams. It reveals much about his determination, his physical courage, and the connection that existed between him and his son. He considered that voyage a metaphor for his life and constantly referred to it in later years in his correspondence.

Foreign Service types take their families with them into very hazardous posts, expected of them. Sort of a way of saying "we are not worried……..There are Foreign Service people under the gun in many countries and they have their families with them, including children.

Franklin’s concept of diplomacy was to ask for nothing that Vergenes (the French Foreign Minister) would not give, be grateful for whatever the French provided, and remain ever accommodating and patient.

But he (Adams) was apprehensive of too much diffidence. He worried about the effect in the long run, as he explained to Roger Sherman in a letter he appears never to have sent. "There is a danger that the American People and their representatives in Congress may have too much timidity in their conduct toward this power, and that your ministers here may have too much diffidence of themselves and too much compliance for the Court." Specifically he warned of "excessive attention to what the French thought, what France wanted, and too much French influence in our deliberations."

We stayed in a country on the average of two (2) years; had six weeks home leave to get new training and re-Americanized; then on to a new post (Embassy, Consulate General, Consulate, Mission, or Legation, each was a different level of representation) Kids would attend either an American School or an International School. both usually were staffed by American Teachers and was funded by the U.S. government. In addition to the American Children the children of almost all of the other diplomatic missions in country also attened these schools. they did because if was a platform for entry to an American College and the level of teaching was quite high. Teaching jobs in American Scools overseas had been the most sought after and the most desirable jobs in the Profession (don't know about now) the American School in the Hague Holland was considered on the level equal to the best Prep Schools in the U.S. because of the quality of its teachers and its curiculum. Location of the schools depended on availability of sites. In Pakistan the Embassy and the School were about twelve (12) miles apart. The School was located on the outskirts of the city. When the Burnout occcured people working in the Embassy were in the Vault for protection, their children were in the school miles away. NO one knew much of what was going on at the School. there was a radio link but there was so much confusion that the people at the School didn't use it. Imagine those parents, with a mob outside the embassy calling for their blood, Setting fire to everything, knowing that their children were so far away and in danger and their was nothing they could do about it but hope and pray. this type of situation is NOT unusual in many countries. Kids take it in stride. the service tries to educate most of the FSO's, at least, in the language of the host country. that is an ongoing study an FSO goes to language school for a year or two before arriving at post and constantly has lessons during the tour of duty. However, some the languages take a long time to learn even the basics. In addition many of the people trying to learn the language are in their mid-thities, not the ideal time to take up a new language unless one has a talent for languages. Practicing the language can be difficult if one works all day in the Embassy speaking English. Also, in many countries the natives want to practice their English and will refuse to speak the local language. The Russians did it right. A Russian Officer was assigned to an area and that was the area he/she stayed in. The Russian attended language school for many years before arriving at post. the American Fso might only spend one tour in an area and then move on to a different Continent and different post where he/she was required to learn ANOTHER language, if possible.
Write a book about the F.S.? there have been some written. None of them "Expose's" I would hate to tell you of some of the things I witnessed in the F.S. it would make you cry.

Tiger tom

"I will swim or sink, live or die, survive or perish with my country." Not Massachusetts, not New England, but "my country." He held nothing back. The years in Congress meant the sacrifice of his practice and income, a heavy burden for a man with a family. Even heavier were the long periods of separation from Abigail, whom he addressed as his "Dear Friend" in letters that would arrive in the post rider's bag or a sailing vellel weeks after they were written. The two were virtually in separate worlds, she managing the children and the farm alone in the confusion and upheaval of revolution and he, except for brief leaves of absence, consumed by the relentless grind of duty.

Did his finatical love of his country mean he was slightly crazy? Maybe

Throughout his youth, the teachings from both his mother and father were instrumental in shaping his strong character. He was also fortunate to live abroad with his family in his teenage years which allowed him to experience many different nationalities, cultures and ethnic backgrounds.

I will look for that book. Our local Library should be able to get a copy sent down here if it doesn't actually have it. Sure, if we can find a book that is interesting and factual, I would take on the job of DL gladly.

Wasn't sworn to Secrecy about Foreign Service life. Should have been about some of the idiocy in it, but wasn't. (It is safe though because so much of it could not be believed.) A little bit, yes, I was asked not to talk about, I guess not enough time has passed that I can yap about it.

Tom

"By the autumn of 1777 the situation was dire. The Congress had authorized the purchase of war supplies for the American army and the construction of warships for the American navy; now that the bills were coming due the commissioners discovered they lacked the funds to pay the suppliers and the builders……"

"Foreign governments and individuals were under no compulsion to accept American paper. Indeed they marveled at the Americans''system of financing the war. ''the whole is a mystery even to the politicians,' Franklin said, 'how we have been able to continue a war (said four years later)…..without money, and how we could pay with paper that had no previously fixed fund appropriated specifically to redeem it."

Struggling to learn Dutch and its history Adams was well aware of the complicated government of that country.  Financial support through a loan was held in abeyance as  Dutch prosperity depended on the Brits supporting Dutch trade at sea..  They also held substantial loans to Britian.  (To say nothing of the tenuous situation with the US new-found freedom.)  I give him credit, he, too, was a like a dog with a bone!  He never gave up and campaigned religiously reporting his diplomatic attempts to win everyone over.  That was a tough job as all hell was breaking loose over here in the U.S. with little liklihood for peace.

"I want a bird of passage. Posterity who are to reap the blessings will scarcely be able to conceive the hardships and sufferings of their ancestors."

" His freedom to expand as a human being, as a patriot, as a key strength during the volatile days of declaring independence....someone maintained his personal home so that he could be free to do it all. John had few restrictions, as Abigail had many."

More independent by nature, he (man) can scarcely realize all those ties which bind our sex to his. Is it not natural to suppose that as our dependence is greater, our attachment is stronger?

As far as Rush was concern they were sovereign for nearly all of mankind’s ills. They were composed of calomel, a mixture of six parts mercury to one part chlorine, and Jalap (what is that?). Each drug was a purgative of explosive power; the combination was awesome.

Internet problem

It looks like the Internet is having recurring problems with a major route and access to SeniorNet is being affected although our site itself is not down. At varying times, some of you may not be able to get in to SeniorNet even though others are not experiencing the same problem. I'm sorry for the problem and I hope that it will be remedied soon.

About a 14 year old being his Father's Secretary. Back then a 14 year old was considered a Man. He was given the responsibility of a Man. Girls in that day were married off to "Older, Settled Men" when they were 15-16. If one grew up on a farm one pretty much knew what was needed by the time oen reached the age of 14: How plant; how to reap; how to mend fences; how take care of cattle; breeding of Animals; just about everything to do with Farms and Farm life. Girls were the same, they learned, by the early teens, how to Cook, Sew, Make homespun clothing; make candles; canning, take care of the Chickens and other fowl, take care of a kitchen Garden, Help birth a human child; clean and Wash. Both the Young males and Females were, by their early teens, ready for the life they would be living. I guess some got a little Schooling But schooling wasn't considered as necessary as learning how to take care of a Farm and one's family. The young weren't encouraged to remain Chiildren until Voting age. In this day and age our Young people are not allowed the Responsibility needed or to mature fast enough. I have heard some burbble that a 16 year old girl was "just a Baby." In many parts of the world a girl of 16 has been married for some years and will have had four babies by that time. Not surprised that J.Q. was given the responsibility he was. It was expected that he could and would assume the responsibility and carry it our correctly while still learning languages and other things.

"the abundance and variety of the productions of America, the materials of manufacturers, navigation, and commerce, the vast demand and consumption in America of the manufactures of Europe...cannot admit of a doubt that a connection with the United States would be useful to this republic."

Yes, there are a few reasons that an Ambassador may be recalled: The usual reason is when the U.S. wants to emphasize that it is unhappy about the way things are going between the two countries. Recalling the Ambassador for "Consultations" to Washington and then delaying the Ambassador's return to Post lets the other nation know of Washington's displeasure. In the case of Joe Kennedy, FDR was fed up with him. There has been a time or two when other Ambassador's have incurred the ire of the President or the Secretary of State. They are usually allowed to resign the post (not from the service, but from the Post that they are accredited to.) This allows the Ambassador to save some "Face" and go gracefully. Occasionaly, the host country will ask for the Ambassador's recall. that will be done quietly for "Health" resons. Career Foreign Service Ambassadors rarely, if ever, get themselves in a position where they are recalled or the host country asked for them to be recalled. It is the Political Appointee's (Big Contributors to political party's) who get into trouble. They generally are wealthy and are used to getting their way and can be quite spoiled when told NO! Unfortunately, some posts: London, Paris, Rome, tokyo, and a few others are so expensive and the Ambassador's allowance falls so short only a independently wealthy person can afford the Ambassadorship. The Ambassador to the Court of St. James (London) usually is out of pocket a half a million dollars a year. Still, there is quite a line of people who are willing to foot bill to be Ambassador in London. Even so, the wealthiest People who have taken that Ambassadorship, have cut down on such expenses as the Ambassador's Fourth of July party for Americans that used to be held in London: TOO MANY Americans were showing up. You would be surprised how one Hot Dog and a Coke can add up when there are tens of thousands who want to attend the party.

Tiger Tom

I recollect the untitled man to whom I gave my heart and in the agony of recollection, when time and distance present themselves together, wish he had never been any other. Who shall give me back my time? Who shall compensate to me those years I cannot recall? How dearly have I paid for a title husband

In various parts of the city, it was explained, there were designated places with small boxes in which a baby could be deposited. In winter one child in three died of exposure.

š jane›

"What we're trying to do is keep babies from being left in dumpsters, in the woods, or in public bathrooms," said John Tyson, Jr., Mobile County District Attorney. "Some new mothers are so overwhelmed by fear or shame that they cannot take care of their babies. A Secret Safe Place for Newborns gives them - and their babies - a place to go."


"The mother or father would not be subject to prosecution if they deliver their baby, unabused and less than six days old, to a suitable location and promptly notify an appropriate person of the baby's location."

• "distinguished honor"
• "happiest of men"
• "recommending my country"
• "your Majesty's royal benevolence"
• "beg your Majesty's permission"

"It would have ill suited me. I do not love difficulties. I am fond of quiet, willing to do my duty, but made irritable by slander and apt to be forced by it to abandon my post."

I am in agreement with ElizabethN on the voting. But also, I think JA came to appreciate TJ after he loosened up in Paris and started to enjoy the frivolous and social pleasures offered there. Even though McC notes that JA preferred to attend plays and operas, mostly with his family. And, I do like JA for his stick-to-itiveness when it came to his mission for the newly formed US. He was goal oriented(as they say today) wasn't he? Even Abigal changed her attitude towards the French after being there for a brief time and seeing what fun people they were. Her remarks about Lafayette's wife show that! It must be hard to loosen up after spending the past four years in charge of the whole family and farm. While she was trying to do everything right, the French were just having a good time! or so it would seem.

You might make a good diplomat, never know. there is more to it than flowery language. After a while in the Diplomatic service one tends to learn that what is "True" or "Truth" doesn't always mean the same thing to all people(s) and a lie may not be a lie. It may be just another way of looking at something. For Instance: Muslims are prohibited from drinking Alcohol. Yet, I have been in many Well-to-do Muslims homes that had a very well stocked bar. I have also seen Muslims, including Muslims women, knock back a water glass of Scotch with out blinking, something that would have put me on the floor. The Bar? to accomodate guests in thier home from the west who might like a "Drink"; being able to drink like a fish? Again to accomodate guests and not to make them feel uncomfortable drinking around people who are not allowed to drink. In Western countries I have seen Muslims in the Diplomatic Corps who drank all of the time. Years ago the Muslims gave the best parties in Washington D.C. Plenty of booze flowed and it wasn't only the Westerners who were drinking. Still the Muslims in the corps will tell you that they Don't drink and that their religion doesn't allow them to drink. As a diplomat you smile when that is said and say "is that so?" They will also say that they keep and serve booze to be polite they also have something at a Dip party so as not to "Offend" the host. True, there are some Muslims in the Diplomatic Corps who die before allowing themselves to drink Alcohol. As I say, you might make a great Diplomat, never know unless you try.

Tiger Tom

Happy Birthday Mahlia!



Hope I am not wrong in this.



Tiger Tom

The political landscape he saw in his mind's eye ...was a horizon swept clean of all institutions capable of coercing American citizens from pursuing their happiness as they saw fit. ...the essence of his vision (depicted) a radical transformation of society and the emergence of a utopian world IN WHICH THE ESSENTIAL DISCIPLINE OF GOVERNMENT WAS INTERNALIZED WITHIN THE CITIZENRY. The only legitimate form of government, in the end, was self-government.""(Ellis, Chapter 4

London in comparison to Paris.

Nabby & William Smith.

JA meets with old friend, Jonathon Sewall in London.

JA & TJ tour the English countryside:

(re: office of the president) "He (the president) may be reelected from four years to four years for life….Once in office, and possessing the military force of the union, without either the aid or check of a council, he would not be easily dethroned, even if the people could be induced to withdraw their votes from him. I wish that at the end of the four years, they made him ever ineligible a second time."

When I was first in Holland it was not all that unusual to see the Dutch Houswife scrub her doorstep; the stairs leading up to her door; her part of the Sidewalk and on out into the street in front of her door. If any one of the HOusewife's on the block failed to keep her section clean she heard about it.
The dutch are a very Conservative, Religious people who are also very tolerant. So much so, that they allowed the hippies to come into their cities in the 60's and lay wsste to them. Last time I was in Holland the cities still had not completely recovered and I didn't see any women scrubbing as they did when I was first in that Country. The Dutch have always been a clean and neat people. Also very, very good Business types. I was once told by a Dutch man "We Dutch do not joke about money." I loved the three years I spent in Holland and like the Dutch very much.

Does anyone here watch "Founding Fathers" on the History channel? I found it last night and really enjoyed it.

Yes, Franklin did have a son who was a Tory during the Revolution and lived in London after the War. Franklin had used his influence (while he still had some) to get his son named governor General of, I believe, New Jersey, (although I may be wrong about the state.) this did cause Franklin some problems then and later as he was accused of being Pro-British and in their debt for that appointment.
In the end, although I am vague about this, Franklin and his son were estranged after the Revolutionary War. Been a while since I read about Franklin.

Tiger Tom

"With issues of such immense national consequence to be addressed, policies to be considered and resolved, precedents to establish, laws to enact, an entire new structure for the governance of the nation to be brought into being"

Among many other books I have by my bed and armchair in my room is the one titled: "The First American, the life and Times of Benjamin Franklin." I also have Founding Brothers which has a section on Franklin. I have always been a fan of his. He was intelligent, witty, generous, outgoing, and a great human being. Next to Jefferson he is my hero from that time and place. I like him because he was a complete man. He worked hard and played hard. Sure, he liked the ladies and they liked him. I can't fault him for that. They were one of MY major weaknesses when I was young and single. I envy him that the ladies continued to find him attractive even into old age. that must have been flattering to him even if they were having him on a bit. He probably knew that but liked to flirt with them anyway.
Franklin was no fool. He may have presented the image of a simple man from the sticks but he wasn't. I would have hated to played poker with him. I would have walked away with nothing left. He knew his strengths and weaknesses and used them both.
I am not very far into the book, yet. However, so far it is good and promises to be good throughout the whole book. Discuss it? Perhaps John Adams can be followed by a discussion of this Franklin book.

Tom

"He has so happy a faculty of appearing to accommodate and yet carrying his point that if he was not really one of the best intentioned men in the world, he might be a very dangerous one. He is polite with dignity, affable without formality, distant without haughtiness, grave without austerity, modest, wise and good.

"He seeks information from all quarters and judges more independently than any man I ever saw".

Harold has three questions in the heading and as we proceed onward to the remainder of the book, let's attempt to answer them, okay?

I’m planing a discussion of the book “The Arrogance of Power”: The secret life of the late Presdent Richard M Nixon. I still must determine the date, however it will not be untill after the first of the year. I hope to start some time in February 2002. I do hope you will all join in this discussion.

Thanks again Harold.

Bill H

Perhaps Adams was good at Foreign Policy and lousy at Domestic Policy. Someting that seem to have become fairly common with our Presidents. Especiallky lately. Good at one and bad at the other. Depending, it could be any combination.

Tiger Tom

……the Republicans of Jefferson’s day after a few years became the Democratic Party. That party today seems the true continuation of the party. The Federalist Party folded by 1812 and for a few elections in the 18-teens and 20’s all candidates could be described as factions of the Republicans. I did a quick Internet search and found that John Q was from one of these Republican factions and JA himself as a Mass elector cast an electoral vote for one of these Republican candidates. I think Andrew Jackson was the first to style his party by the single word “Democrat.”

In the l840’s and 50”s a new party was organized, the Whigs and was successful in a couple of presidential elections. The Republicans of course were first organize in 1856 on the anti slavery issue and succeeded in electing its candidate for President in 1860 and most of the elections until the 1930’s. I don’t think it proper to say the Republicans of today are a continuation of the Federalists though I suspect most reincarnated Federalists would find some of their platform planks attractive. Today both parties unashamedly proclaim the old messages of Jefferson, and yes Adams too, as their own.

“Here is the link that I used in formulating the conclusions given above: Presidential Elections

Looking at the U.S. government and our American society as it exists today, what features do you identify as attributable to John Adams? What is attributable to Thomas Jefferson? Does the thoughts of one or the other predominate?

"Complaining was not the Adamses mode. The adjustments were more difficult than they would concede. The humiliation that defeat and popular rejection had inflicted on them, the death of Charles, and now sudden, total seclusion took a heavy toll. In some circles, they knew, they were openly despised. In others they were now considered irrelevant. Worst perhaps was the sense that no one any loger cared about them one way or the other."

"Why was it that a nation without wars to fight seemed to lose its honor and integrity? War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues, too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another."

"Open displays of patriotism have not been common at Harvard University for quite some time so when Harvard considers allowing the ROTC back on campus, it is a sign that something must be changing. ....... the belief in American exceptionalism, that the United States plays a special role in history because it embodies a unique set of ideas about individual liberty and equality, once came as naturally as breathing.

But over the past 40 years, the nation's faith in itself, its values and its destiny have been shaken.....As terrible as the attack (Sept. ll) was, it has helped Americans see themselves in a way they haven't in a generation or more. There really is comething special here. It's worth standing up for. It's worth fighting for. That's now apparent, even in places such as Harvard."