Oh, what fun this book is!!! Please count me in on the discussion!

Lou

And will be happy to be part of the discussion....anna

Okay, you two, sooooooo happy to have you both here. Obviously we both love mysteries from time to time. I'm going to put this announcement in other places so hope we get a crowd.

It's a delightful book!

Hey this does sound intreging sooooo I just might join in jcasparius

HEY WINNIE - I know you. Glad to have you in the discussion, will let all of you know the date when we have decided on one. Hopefully next month, but it is not definite yet.

Would any of you like to watch one of Mary Higgins Clark's movies and talk about it later, after we read her Memoir?

I like Mary Higgins Clark too and have ordered the book from my library so hope we go ahead.

Carolyn

Gosh, Ella, I've read all MHC's books, well all but the Mt. Vernon historical novel one, but I don't think I've seen any of her movies? Which books have been made into movies? Sounds like it might be kinda fun... though lately I've been having bad experiences with movies really messing up great mental images I've had with books.

Lou

Lou, I searched the web for her movies and found 3 (although I have not seen any). They are - He Sees You When You're Sleeping; Loves Music, Loves to Dance; and Lucky Day. Maybe we can find more later.

To be very truthful I have not read one of her books for a long time but I have read several in the past and thought it would be fun to discuss something a bit lighter than ABRAHAM! Mercy!!!

Her biography will be and I thought we would get mystery fans in here to discover what goes into writing such books.

Ella,

I would like to join. I love mysteries. Sadly, I have not read any of Mary Higgins Clark's mysteries. I am going to try and read one before the discussion. Usually, I like cozies. I don't know if Mary Higgins Clark fits in this category.

WELCOME HATS! What are "cozies?" That term is new to me, maybe others are familiar with it?

Good to have you here, we'll explore the world that this author knew from her birth until the present day - I forget her age now, loaned the book out but will get it back soon.

HOW ABOUT DISCUSSING THIS APRIL lst (and we'll just forget that it is April's Fools Day - YES!)

Ella,

Thanks for the welcome. Cozies are mysteries too. Cozies are simpler mysteries, not police procedurals or hard core crime cases. Cozies would include the Miss Seeton Series or the Mrs. Pollifax Series or Aunt Dimity Series. Cozies are very light, no blood and gore. Someone else could probably describe them in a better way. I just finished DEATH IN A HOT FLASH BY JANE ISENBERG. I am starting MURDER WILL TRAVEL BY EMILY TOLL. These are cozies too.

Hats and Ella, MHC does not write cozies!!! My first encounter with her was Where Are the Children?... and on from there...not cozies, but I have always been fooled and never figured them out with foreshadowing, or anything--- well, except when I can't stand it and have to read the ending before I get there... sorry, that's the way I am!! Another book, one of her mysteries or a movie... whatever suits is fine with me.

Abraham is something, is it not???

Lou

Oh, how you could ever do that, LOU! Read the ending before you are through? You need to slap your hands silly. How many times I have wanted, but I didn't, I didn't!!!

Hats, you'll like her books, you will. I don't know exactly about cozies, they are not blood or gore either, but they are MYSTERIES! Whodunits!

We are going to start this discussion April lst, we just haven't moved it up to UPCOMING DISCUSSIONS yet. Have do a pretty heading and all and - YES, ABRAHAM IS SOMETHING ELSE AND KEEPS ME VERY BUSY, BUT I'M LOVING IT!!! LEARNING SOMETHING - MAKES MY DAY, KEEPS ME YOUNGER.

Ella I think Where are the Children was made into a movie. It was the first book I read as well and it was so suspenseful as are most of her books. They make my heart race a bit and keep me reading when I should be sleeping or doing household chores ( which NEVER cease regardless of your age)

April 1st sounds like a good date to me.. anna

Would love to join.Mary Higgens Clark has been in my library for yonks and I love her. Like you Lou I always read the end first, the mystery to me is how you get there . Have sent off to bookworld today anf if the book is available in Autralia, I'm in.

Oh, I hope you can ANNE! Is that your name with the additional letters another part? Or is it your whole name?

We'll have a good time with this book - I promise you! Thanks for posting!

will do nicely thanks, and I shall hope to be here.The anne of avonlea thing is the second Mongomery book following Anne of Green Gables, a childhood favourite series of mine.

Oh, yes, I see that now, Anne, I am a bit slow, but give me time! haha Am happy you explained that.

Ella

I have just finished listening to an audio book of the Lottery Winners featuring the incorrigable Elvira! There are four stories in it. The stories are a slight departure from The authors usual style but really nice light and uplifting reading for a mystery type book. I don't think I have been able to get hold of all of Mary Higgins Clark's books but those I have read I really enjoyed.

Carolyn

Thanks for that note, Carolyn! I'm not familiar with that, but, no doubt, when our discussion starts some others will be.

WELCOME - A HEARTY WELCOME - EVERYONE!

Is everyone here? Shall I have roll call? Or did everyone remember that today is April lst (never mind that it is "Fools Day!) It soon will be spring and that's the very best time to start a new book discussion.

I feel compelled to say at the very outset that this book deserves an Irish Catholic Discussion Leader – but sad to say I am not Irish nor Catholic; however I just know we’ll all have fun with this little book. As we wend our way through it, let’s ask ourselves if our author writes about herself as well as she writes her mysteries.

And, as always in the BOOKS, we request that all of us stick with the Schedule posted in the header above and that we talk to one another as if we were sitting around the dining room table as a group. We’re going to have a wonderful time here with Mary Higgins Clark and, maybe, along the way we can pick up some pointers on how she has become so successful in her novels AND SO WEALTHY!!! WOW!

MHC starts her Memoir at the very beginning of her life. If you were to write your own memoir would you do that? Do all authors, when writing their autobiographies?

What memories our author conjures up for our pleasure! Which one reminded you of your own childhood?

I'm on Eastern Standard Time and I'm writing this at about midnight and time to go to bed. It will be interesting to get acquainted with all of you and to know where you are from and what time zone you are in. See you tomorrow!

Ella I could hardly wait, the first thing I checked was to see if this discussion was open...I have a code in the nose but will get my book and read the chapters you posted.

I can qualify as Irish and while I never became Catholic, choosing to follow my mothers Protesant faith....My Irish grandmother lived with us for about 9 years and my mother kept the fast days required by her faith. They meant nothing to me but our calandar came from a Catholic funeral parlor and every fast day had a fish. So I had to grow up and leave home before I realized the 11th commandant was not THOU SHALT EAT FISH ON FRIDAY!

Will return after I see the doctor and read again my book. Thanks for choosing this book to read and enjoy and share..anna

Hi, all. I'm here too, waiting for the arrival of my book, hopefully this week.

Meanwhile I checked the book review in B&N. While I'm not Irish or Catholic, I WAS born in the Bronx. I wonder if MHC shared any childhood neighborhoods with me? I remember rollerskating down concrete sidewalks shoulder to shoulder with bunches of other neighborhood kids. The metallic vibration of my rollerskates made my teeth vibrate and I LOVED it. We must have created such a roaring noise! I lived in an apartment house complex and I still get nostalgic when I think of the fun with all the other children in those huge buildings.

I'll be lurking and waiting for my book.

Harriet

I can't resist--sign me in. I checked out the cassette of Kitchen Privileges read by the author. Now I have the book and want to read it--I have such a problem with audio books--dozing off, ( at home-not in car) or mind wandering, then backtracking, etc.--so my perception is flawed--so I want to read the book so I can really appreciate the book.

First time ever I joined a group discussion--and I really like the idea of assigned pages--I know I can do that!!

HarrietM--yes, rollerskating!! my brothers and I got skates every Christmas--always warned that "I don't know if your Daddy can get you skates this year--but you know we will try"--this was very understandable to us--skates cost $2 a pair....As I skated along I knew I must look like Sonja Henie--arms outspread, one leg stretched out behind me and gliding down the sidewalk on one skate--across the cracks and roughness of the pavement---I really had a good imagination!!!

I really enjoyed reading Kitchen Privileges. It always amazes me that authors live lives so much like everyone else’s! I’ve always had authors on a high pedestal that would set them apart from the rest of us, at least for me, lowly readers.

Lenalu and Harriet, did you have those roller skates that attached to your shoes? Mama loved for us to skate, but hated what the skates did to our shoes! My first skates had leather lacing pieces across my toes, but when I outgrew those, my skates had metal pieces that fit over the soles of my shoes and always managed to tear the soles from my shoes. Did you all have that same problem?

My husband and I have laughed for years that if we wrote our life story we would have to publish it as fiction, because no one would believe it was true!

Lou

YES, our skates were the kind that had clamps that went between shoe soles and the upper shoe..and you had to have a key to tighten them--this was a big issue--the grown-ups were always saying not to tighten them so tight because we were tearing our shoes up--not tightening them enough allowed a skate to come off at the toe and dangle from the ankle strap--almost always causing a fall...Sounds pretty awful--but we feared nothing--reprimands or skinned knees--just so long as we could go skating.

That was the kind of skates that I had too, Lenalu and Lou. I had a skate key that I used to tighten the skates onto the soles of my shoes. There were lots of kids in those apartment buildings and we loved to skate those city-block sidewalks in groups.

When I think back, I wonder how the grownups managed to tolerate our noise. To this day I can "feel" the metallic friction that the skates produced in my teeth and the soles of my feet. Our knees were almost always decorated with scabs. That was normal, right?

Harriet

HOW GRAND - EVERYONE IS HERE AND WE ARE STARTING OUR BOOK DISCUSSION - ALWAYS A FUN THING FOR ME TO DO! A NEW BOOK - the fresh smell of a new book, wonderful! WELCOME TO YOU ALL AND THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING!

ANNA's here – OH! And you are so funny with your stories and I love ‘em. You were allowed to follow the Protestant faith with an Irish Catholic grandmother living with you? That's not like some of the grandmothers I knew! Didn't she ever scold?

HARRIET – I’m so happy you are here! With or without a book - but hope your book comes soon. Meanwhile, we will all keep you informed – MHC lived at 1913 Tenbroeck Avenue in a semidetached house with a half bath in the basement (very modern for its day wouldn’t you think? ) There’s more – she lived in the Pelham Parkway section of the Bronx – are you familiar with that?

Is a semidetached house the same as a double? Just never heard it phrased that way.

LENALU! WE’RE SO HAPPY TO WELCOME YOU TO YOUR FIRST INTERNET BOOK DISCUSSION!!! THREE HIP-HIP-HIP-HOORAYS FOR LENALU! We all hope you will find it so much fun you’ll stick around for years! Thanks for coming! We’ll have good use for your imagination as we progress!

LOU – HELLO! Yes, yes, the skates were just horrible, but we didn’t know they were – it was all we had. I had those skates also but mine never stayed on – I was dangling them most of the time and wondering how the other kids managed.

And there’s our own GINNY! She of the scarred knees! You had a little white skirt and skating boots? All right – one of those spoiled rich kids!!! Hahaha – they didn’t live on my block!

THOSE WERE THE DAYS!

Who remembers the milkman? Okay, I do too, BUT HORSES PULLING THE MILK WAGON AND THE BREAD WAGON? No, they were motorized I think when I was young; however I thought MHC was around my age? So I’ll wait until we get to where she tells how old she is.

Oh, we all knew the Good Humor Man, didn’t we?

When were all of you aware that your family had been hit by the Depression? That should tell us something about ages.

And did all of you keep diaries? Didn’t everyone? Hahaha Do they still? Listen, I had five sisters and if you kept a diary, believe me, you never kept it secret! There are no hiding places that sisters have never uncovered!

MHC wrote poems - when she was six years old? Was she precocious or do all six-year-olds write poems? I thought they were ahead of the game if they could read the first line of JANE AND SPOT! (Wasn't it Jane and Spot? - the first book in the first grade?) Oh, well......

Later, ella

I think Dick and Jane is the book most people remember--Spot was the dog. I don't remember the name of the book I had in first grade but I remember that on the last page was a picture of a big white house and it said The White House, I read the book many times and each time I got to the last page, I would look and never could find the white HORSE. I remember some of the goofiest things!!!

Thanks for the BIG WELCOME!!!

Ihaven't gotten the book yet but one short comment. I hate to get a book and before you get to the person herself you have to go back generations--why don't they start with the person at say-----20 years old As you can see I am not a history buff. I want the here and now. Hello to all and I will follow and coment if and when I get the book Jeanne

I remember my first grade book. I won't ever forget it. Like Lenalu mentioned, there was Dick and Jane and of course, Sally. The pets were Spot the dog and Puff, the cat. Of course, mother and father. Remember those words?

See Jane run.
Run, run, run.
Run Jane Run.

I think the words had a particular beat.

I love the skating memories. Ginny, I skated those same streets in Philly. How funny that we would meet up here again.

When MHC wrote about dixie cups, that brought back memories. I have not heard those words in years. Didn't a tiny wooden spoon always come with the dixie cup? I loved vanilla or chocolate. Both flavors were delicious. To think, my boys have never heard of a dixie cup. If they only could taste, what they have missed.

I have to say that the writing style of this book is great! MHC writes so simply, and every page is filled with delicious memories. I am reading along with the schedule, but it is very difficult not to keep turning the pages. It's a wonderful book. I am glad Ella chose it.

I remember five year diaries too. My mother always bought me one. I never finished one. I enjoyed having something with a key attached.

GOOD MORNING--

Winniejc, Hats, Ginny:

You all have no idea how hard it is for me to write a short note-- you all have triggered so many thoughts, memories and opinions--HOWEVER, if I DON'T DO SOME PAPERWORK AND PAY SOME BILLS AND GO TO THE LAUNDROMAT AND WASH SOME DISHES (no Ginny-I wash dishes at home)---WELL---OH, YES, it's Garbage Day and I am getting too old to chase the garbage truck down the street. How boring, ha, ha, ha-----

Oh, I have to tell you this--I am listening now to a tape of Chamber of Mysteries (Harry Potter) read by the most brilliant Britisher--(and I can understand every word he says) he uses distinctive voices for all the characters--I got the tape out of curiosity--wondered what all the shouting was about----

the correct title is Chamber of Secrets--reader is Jim Dale. The small blurb on the back of the case is partially hidden by the library labels --grrr. He sounds British-- and I certainly love his voices)

Lenalu, I sure hope you are enjoying Harry Potter... and won't stop when you finish the first one!! I'm so anxious for number 5!!!

My skating was in Oklahoma, after the folks brought us back from California... where every Okie of that generation had to go! Guess we weren't really Grapes of Wrath, but almost. We tore down the sidewalks... when we weren't drawing hop scotchs on the sidewalks! I lived beside Route 66... and a favorite thing was to set in the swing on the front porch and count cars... I got the red ones and my sister blue! Peanut patties!! Round pink sugar filled with peanuts!! Oh, my mouth is watering!! And hamburgers with fried onions!! oh so good at the little grill that was still there last time I looked!! And the library, Carnegie library, so tall--- 2 stories!!-- filled with wonders!! Remember the Boxcar Children?

Lou

Ginny, I think that must have been Hats whizzing by you in Philly. I was making my noise in the East Bronx, NY instead. Oh, I wish we had all known each other back then! It would have been soooo fun to skate with you all, Hats, Ginny, Lou, Lenalu, Ella and Jeanne.

Ella, we definitely would have found a way to make your skates stay ON! After all, if it was a choice between tightening those skate clamps until your shoes screamed for help or missing out on your company, we all would have given your shoes something to cry about!

Ella, Pelham Parkway WAS part of my childhood also. My parents often took us there to eat at a favorite Chinese restaurant. I wasn't old enough to walk or ride the bus there by myself so I didn't get to see that much of it, but it was a familiar name to me. I can't wait for my book to come to see if I recognize any more of the locales of MHC's childhood. I lived in the Bronx until I was 9 years old. I remember it in kind of an idealized haze, but curious to see how our author feels about it.

What a merry team we all would have been if we had played together. Makes me wish we could all do a game of Red Rover or skip rope together! Hop scotch, Lou...sigh...how nice. I would have called for each of you and asked your mothers if you could come out to play.

Harriet

Harriet, I loved skipping rope. Remember double dutch? I loved Hop Scotch too. Harriet, I like what you wrote, "I remember it in an idealized haze." That is so true. Your words really spoke to me.

When I talk to my boys about growing up in Philly, I remember the "good stuff." Only just recently have I come to accept that my old neighborhood can not be the one that lives in my memory. Would I like to see how it has changed? I am not sure.

Harriet, I am looking forward to hearing about your neighborhood in the Bronx. It will really make MHC's book come alive.

Hats, I love you calling it skipping rope... I always jumped rope!! Double Dutch, hot pepper? high water? Did anyone play jacks? What color was your yo-yo? Mine was hot pink with a black stripe and wonderful "diamonds" across it!! The Duncan yo-yo man would come to the theater before the matinee on Saturdays and show us tricks!! I've never lived in a "city"... though I've read books about city life. Always seemed scary to me!

One story and then I'll quit. My first coffee as a very young, very new army wife... I could understand many of the other wives there, from Germany, Phillipines, Spanish speakers... but one wife I couldn't, just could not understand. I watched her lips... listened carefully... finally I understood "back home in the Bronx"!!!! Certainly foreign sounding to a gal from Oklahoma and Texas--- as I'm sure she wanted to jerk those "twangy" words out of my mouth I talked so slowly!

Lou

WHAT GRAND MEMORIES! ISN’T THIS A LOT OF FUN FOR ALL OF US!

Thanks so much LENALU and HATS for correcting my poor memory about Dick and Jane and Spot the dog – what can I say? I do have snatches left which are as confusing to others as they are to me! Such is life in the 70+ lane of life.

AND WELCOME TO WINNIE – OUR NEWEST MEMBER! HOPE YOU GET YOUR BOOK SOON.

Did I smile when HATS said she never finished a diary! Does a cat have paws? Hahaha They were such grand things to get, such a burden to complete! But journals - I wrote pages in journals, kept them, too, for many years.

How about your own writing experiences? Certainly some of you have given it a whirl, most readers think they could do a better job of it after reading a less than classic book! Our author was writing poems at six years of age and she kept up her diary! Is that an indication that a child might become a writer?

Was it GINNY that mentioned horses clip-clopping along? I must tell you I had an eerie experience recently in Manhattan. One night I couldn’t go to sleep in our hotel and several times during the night – a black night it was – I heard the policeman on his horse (they have them all over the city on patrol night and day) and heard the sound of hooves beating the pavement. It is indescribable in this day and age to hear that – I might have been in the 19th century instead of our modern 21st.

And did all of you notice who among us is remembering all the good things to EAT! Peanut patties? Never heard of them, but they sound delicious, LOU! And what do you think, Harriet, of someone who thinks the girls and guys from the Bronx speak another language? Hahaha Only in America – it’s a vast country!

HARRIET – our author speaks of a place at the top of east Bronx called Silver Beach Gardens, her family had a summer cottage there in the early days when they were prosperous. Remember that? How aboutSt. Raymond’s Cemetery which was the place where the ransom note for the Lindbergh baby’s kidnapping was put – but you are too young for that memory I’m sure!

MHC remembers people charging groceries? Running a tab? Do any of you remember that? When we were first married, we did at a meat market and we would pay it once a month – we used to have small, little, independent markets – one for meat, one for produce, etc. Remember? And you could walk to them!

Are credit cards a better system?

And people didn’t have pensions or social security back when we were young – only government workers had those wonderful benefits. MHC remembers her mother wanted her to marry one.

Had you ever heard of the word (p.17)”tortience” (a Cape Cod expression meaning the special bond that exists between father and daughter)? MHC’s memory of her father is so poignant – she remembered his quiet voice saying “Tis, dear.” An Irishman would speak that way. Lovely memory.

But I must stop here, it's such a lovely book to read and turning the pages I could go on and on.....

Later, ella

My code in the nose turned into a sinus infection and I am feverish and on an antibiotic but I did read about 35 pages this afternoon. Even feeling blah I was lifted back to my childhood spent in the city of St Louis....I too could never keep those clamp on skates On and fell several times as they came off and dangled like a huge earring on my foot. those were metal wheels by the way..Later I tried the skating rinks but was really not good at it...when I tripped the young man I was skating with on pairs...broke a belt on a new dress ( we skated in dresses then) I decided it wasnt for me! Perhaps I was just awkward and never knew it!

We lived in the city and never owned a car, we really didnt need one since buses and trolleys and cabs if needed were there and inexpensive.

Ella I am sure my Irish grandmother thought my mother was a heathen and was upset we werent Catholic. My three older brothers did attend parochial school but by the time I came along (ten years after the youngest of the oldest) my mother sent me to public school.

DIXIE CUPS ohh how I loved them, the movie theater nearest us had one that had orange sherbet and vanilla half and half..that was my favorite, and the White House or Castle hamburgers ...were so good.You could get a dozen for a dollar. The drugstore on the corner had a wonderful array of penny candy...Mother would send me down with a quarter and I would come home with a lunch size paper sake full of assorted goodies. One thing I loved were the little tin pies filled with a creamy mixture that also came with a tiny tin spoon. AND molasses sponge candy....I am making myself hungry...I loved her story and I she evokes so many memories...no horse drawn milk man but a milk man and I remember the cardboard lids sitting like a little hat on the frozen cream...have to go and take some medicine...and will continue to read..just the right thing to read when you are ill ...anna

Got the book the other day from the library. Finished it last nite. I really enjoyed it alot. I've always thought of her as a successful rich author, it was interesting to read how she honed her writing skills.

White castles still exsist today annafair. My son discovered them while in college. We didn't have any nearby when he was a child, but when we visited my folks abour 25 mi from here there still was one there. I remember when visiting son when he was in Atlanta, getting some down in KY and taking them to him. Now we have one in the next town--5 mi. from us. But he no longer is that interested in them. I suggest them every time he visits, but he'd rather have mom's home cooking.

Goodness, what evocative posts! So many memories are coming up for me, a lot of them resurfacing as a result of reading what others have posted here.

How could I have forgotten jacks, Lou? I loved them so and practiced playing them by the hour when I was alone. If I ever tried to play jacks now, my proudest accomplishment would be coordinating well enough to get up from the floor after playing. How times have changed! I adored writing diaries too, and even tried to write and illustrate my own comic books. Too bad I never saved any of it. Did any of you ever think to hang on to any of your childhood writings or sketches?

I was moved by your reference to MHC's father, Ella. In recent years Frank McCourt wrote two autobiographical books about his poverty stricken childhood in Ireland and his eventual emigration to America. McCourt's second book was entitled "Tis" and to me, the word has come to symbolize a humorous and philosophical acceptance of what we cannot change in an adverse world, combined with the drive and willingness to adapt to those things that can be helped. I find that I'm prepared to like MHC's father before I ever open the pages of this book because of his use of that lovely Irish word.

I can't tell any of you about Silver Beach, but I can reminisce about my memories of Orchard Beach in the Bronx. My big sister would take me to Orchard Beach and I have sunshine-drenched memories of digging passionately in the silken mud of its shoreline. The mobs of people around me faded away because of the joys of my pail and shovel. So lovely...

Anna, you take care of that cold of yours now and feel better soon. It's so nice to be talking to all of you.

Harriet

WELCOME RUTH! ANOTHER NEW MEMBER OF OUR GROUP!

And a hearty good afternoon to ANNA and HARRIET ------

White Castle hamburgers originated in Columbus, Ohio and also Wendy’s hamburgers. We have often been designated as a research city. There were coupons in the paper for White Castles when we were young and we could get a sack full, loved them, still do occasionally.

OKAY - LET’S BRING DOWN THE TONE OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD! LET’S RESTORE THE CLARK FAMILY SIGN – KITCHEN PRIVILEGES! Hahahaha

(For those who do not have the book Mary's mother put a sign in the window that said FURNISHED ROOMS. KITCHEN PRIVILEGES, but the neighbors complained about the last two words, so she cut them off)

The sign was next to the front door? Wouldn’t you have put it in the front window? And it wasn’t metal, so it must have been cardboard? How long does a cardboard sign last in a Bronx winter? Hahahah

WHY DO YOU THINK MHC CHOSE THIS TITLE FOR HER MEMOIR?

”Mother tried to get a job, but she was sent home by the employment agencies……’You’re fifty-two and haven’t held a job in fourteen years. Go home and save your carfare.’”

THAT WOULDN’T HAPPEN TODAY – NOT ON YOUR BEST BIPPY IT WOULDN’T! AND IF IT DID, MOTHER COULD SUE OR COMPLAIN TO THE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY (board? Something? Agency, maybe?)

Is that progress? I’ve always wanted to know what progress is or if there is such a thing?

Do people still rent out rooms? Widows possibly who need additional income to stay in their own home? I don't know.

later, ella

I cant speak for other communities but here in our area there are still ROOMS TO LET....A young son of close friends moved back here when his family moved away and rented a room not too far away from where I live. He stayed with us awhile but a guest is one thing a boarder is another. I also knew a lady who rented a room in her condo to another lady but it turned out she had female guests who were less than desirable and had her son come and demand they leave. Afterwards she rented the room to a married lady who moved here to take nursing classes at the local hospital. She did it supplement her income.Once in awhile I glance through the ads and find rooms to let so I guess it is still being done.

Years ago a widowed aunt of mine turned her large Victorian home into a boarding house...which meant meals were included. The town had a facory and many of the males employees lived elsewhere and boarded at my aunts. It is a time honored tradition.

My father sounds a lot like MHC father and being the only girl I was a favorite. He called me SIS and mother said spoiled me. He was a gentle man and rarely raised his voice. My mother always said he was a great father, changing diapers, looking after us and that is the man I remember a great father.

By the way our neighborhood was mostly Irish and Catholic and many of the "girls" and "boys" waited to marry. They stayed home until they were older and married late...40-50..so it was odd when most of my friends childrens moved out of the home as soon as they had a job. My children stayed at home until they married as did all of my brothers and myself. They contributed to the household and paid thier own bills, did thier own laundry etc to me it seemed natural,,,was that an IRISH thing?

I cant say I am feeling better but no worse so I will try to read a few more pages ....anna

In our rural NC community there is very little rental property. When my husband and son moved here, so hubby could begin work and since that son was beginning high school, he moved with his dad. Our daughter was graduating that year from high school in our previous town, so she and our younger son stayed with me there. My 2 fellows "rented rooms with kitchen privileges" from local widows until we brought this house. So it still happens here.

I wonder if all writers began to write in their childhoods? I believe I've read most, if not all, were great readers. Wouldn't it be something if all the folks who left Ireland were still there??? I recently read How the Irish Saved Civilization. In that book the author listed several authors that left Ireland because of food shortages. Several countries get to claim those authors, just as we get to claim MHC!! As rich as Irish literature is, it would be amazing if all those folks were still there!!

Louo

Regretfully, my book hasn't arrived yet so I hope I'm not conjecturing on things that were well covered by the author.

I wonder, WHY did the neighbors object to the words KITCHEN PRIVILEGES? A widow who had to try to survive by running a boarding house before the advent of Social Security benefits, Welfare, or Aid To Dependent Children was living, at the very least, in a state of "genteel" neediness. Why did the neighbors feel there was such a difference in "toniness" between a boarding house where the landlady shopped for groceries and cooked for her roomers every day (what WORK that must have been!) and one where the boarders were able to shop and cook for themselves and use her kitchen as they pleased? Did one situation look so much less classy than the other to the neighbors?

There HAD to have been some negative implication in the words "kitchen privileges" to the surrounding area. But WHY? I so admire the courage of a woman who shouldered the job of economic survival for her family in a world that did not yet have any cushions of public assistance. Also, weren't most people suffering from some effects of the depression? Pretty snooty of the neighbors to complain about MHC's mother, I think.

I get the feeling that the phrase "kitchen privileges" formed the boundary line between a gentlewoman in "diminished" circumstances and a woman who had tumbled into disreputable poverty. I wonder if her book title "KITCHEN PRIVILEGES" is the very wealthy MHC's belated response to her neighbors? She transforms the phrase into a banner of honor on her autobiography... she uses it as a symbol of her success.

POW! TAKE THAT, NEIGHBORS!

Harriet

My book came in today's mail! YAY!

I have to comment on the sweetness and generosity of personality that comes through in Clark's writing. In the first few chapters, MHC comes off as a good-hearted daughter in a family of very nice people.

I don't know why but I kind of expected that an intensity would come beating out of the book. Not at all though. She and her whole family are so thoroughly likeable, and the writing flows along like sugar and cream.

Harriet

Harriet, MHC's writing does flow like "sugar and cream." I loved the book from the very beginning. I thought MHC's mother was very courageous. Her husband had died. One son suffers a major illness. Later, due to other circumstances, she loses him to death too. She loses her home due to financial reasons. Still, MHC's mother doggedly fights to hold her dignity. She does it without any government assistance.

Her idea to take in boarders seems like a wonderful and creative idea. Like you, Harriet, I think the neighbors were lacking some good character traits.

Harriet, your ideas give me a better understanding of the title. Your last paragraph really hits me. "She transforms the phrase into a banner of honor on her autobiography...she uses it as a symbol of her success."

I am glad Ella asked us to look further at the words, "Kitchen Privileges." Funny, but before I knew the meaning of the title, the title itself made me want to buy the book.

If those neighbors could see and read MHC's books now, who would get the last laught? Of course, Mary Higgins Clark!

Lou2, I loved Jacks too. Those little silver thingamajigs in my hand and the red ball. Did we have more fun games back then? Our games were so different from the Gameboy, Nintendo and Playstation. Our games seemed to involve you in group play. The newer games seem to be more solitary. I wonder if the games of our children and grandchildren tell us something about how our society has changed.

Hats, I think, not only was it group play, but if you think about it, we powered our play... energy and muscle... we didn't "plug in and turn on"! It is so easy to set at the computer and in front of the tv. And I believe isolation can easily happen because of that.

I think you all have hit the heart of Kitchen Privileges... nice folks doing what they needed to do to survive and were happy doing it.

Lou

There is a lot to think about, especially when someone asks why people reacted to the words Kitchen Privileges, but rationalized that Room for Rent was not so objectionable--could it be that so many of the neighbors started their lives in this country as immigrants and servants, and had endured so much discrimination during their struggle to raise themselves up to a "higher social standing"....

Don't know when I last agonized so much over a subject--Well anyway, it certainly has got me to thinking---if I ever reach a conclusion, I will let you know---I gotta quit now---Lenalu

Yesterday I finished the assigned pages and pondered over the writing. Writing from the vantage point of a very successful writer it may be easier to talk about the sadness and the struggle it must have been for her mother and for the family. But I could sense the despair she felt,losing her beloved father, going from the comfortable live they had left to renting rooms to strangers and giving up her beloved privacy in that little room. AND to have neighbors who looked down on the Kitchen Privileges as if it were a quarantine sign...I am sure you are all right she named her book that as way of saying POW RIGHT IN THE KISSER to those nieghbors.

And I have to say all at once I forgot my own mother renting rooms after my father died. It was 1949 and he died just two months before I was to marry. My future husband and I were both in school and we both had part time jobs. I offered to postpone the wedding but my mother insisted that daddy had been happy with my choice and if I stayed home for a year it would be harder for her to let me go. The wedding was smaller and we rented rooms near so we could be there if needed. My mother did get a small pension since my father was a railroad man and they had a pension plan..I think it was about 58 dollars a month. Thank goodness the house was paid for. Soon afterwards though both my younger brothers joined the services. The older just fresh out of high school joined the Air Force and the younger one left school, and my mother had to sign for him to join the Marines...in time we all became successfull and happily married and until I read the chapters last evening I had forgotten.

My mother rented the upstairs out to make ends meet and now I have to laugh as I recall her first tenants. They were a couple mid or late 30's perhaps even early 40's and she asked after they had rented the place if she could have all the extra ice cubes in my mothers refrigerator. When my mother asked why she found out the lady worked as a stripper at a local club and she bathed in ice cubes before going to work to keep her skin firm...They stayed for 2 years and mother always said they were the nicest and quietest tenants she ever had...later she cared for my two nieces and my brother and his wife paid her so she no longer had to rent the rooms. This morning I thoght HOW COULD HAVE I FORGOT THAT? It was so long ago and MHC memoirs stirred my memory ...and I thank her for that. anna

Anna, What a wonderful role model your mother was!! I think those of us whose parents survived the depression in whatever way they could have a very rich heritage! Those are/were some very strong folks.

Lou

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR RESPONSES TO THE QUESTION OF WHY MHC NAMED HER BOOK AS SHE DID! THEY WERE SOOOOO.. VERY INTERESTING....

And thanks for your remarks about renting out rooms today. Harriet told us - "My mother rented the upstairs out to make ends meet and now I have to laugh as I recall her first tenants" ThaT is exactly the material MHC used to write a couple of her novels and to fill out this slim little autobiography! So when can we expect to read your own book? Hahaha - we could all do it. We all should try.

Both Anna and Lou tell us that it is still being done in their vicinity; Lou mentioning that she lives in a rural area of NC. Anna, do you live in a small community where "everyone knows your name." That would make it easier I would think.

Anna also tells us that her "neighborhood was mostly Irish and Catholic and many of the "girls" and "boys" waited to marry....married late...40-50!"

They didn't marry until they were 40 or 50 years old? No children, then? Hmmmmmmmmmm Is that typical of Irish Catholic neighborhoods?

Thanks, Lenalu, for this astute comment in regards to the question of why the neighborhood objected to the phrase kitchen privileges - "could it be that so many of the neighbors started their lives in this country as immigrants and servants, and had endured so much discrimination during their struggle to raise themselves up to a "higher social standing"....

They have arrived and don't want to be reminded of what a struggle it was?????????? Thank you, Lenalu!

Harriet brings us another clue as to why the neighbors objected - "I wonder if her book title "KITCHEN PRIVILEGES" is the very wealthy MHC's belated response to her neighbors? She transforms the phrase into a banner of honor on her autobiography... she uses it as a symbol of her success."

Could very well be the answer????

MHC gives us both happy and sad memories, don't we all have them?

If you had to put your memories of grammar school into one word what would it be?

Our author states "I wonder if any adult-parent or teacher-realizes that young people never forgive or forget being humiliated."

She is so right! My worst memory of elementary school was humiliation.

ANNA - did you attend a Catholic school and did you address all the nuns as "Mothers?" I was surprised at that - I remember my Catholic friends calling their teachers "Sister."

Mary is still writing, even in school days, writing short stories, but True Confessions (are they still publishing?) is turning her down? Imagine!

Didn't you smile at Mary's remembrance of listening in on telephone lines at her job? Hahaha Who could resist doing that? One of my sisters lived in a farming community and she had a party line for a number of years - and, of course, we all listened in!

Can you tell from reading Mary's two reminiscences which memory she is more fond of - the job of telephone operator or having dinner every month in a private dining room with fellow mystery writers?

Later, ella

Ella no I never attended parochial school although when it was time to go to High School my mother really wanted me to go to St Theresa's which was an girl Catholic school but I was adamant about going on with the friends I had known from first grade.

Actually I live in a rather mixed community. Newport News Va is on a peninsula and there are just three main roads in or out. Sometimes to get from one to the other you have to go around your left elbow. I think we have over 100,000 ..gee I should look that up but are next door and I mean it looks like one continous town, without signs you would never know where one starts and the other begins...and it has 100,000, there are another three cities backed up to all of these and they add another 100,000 I would guess..and of course right across from us is Norfolk VA and WIlliamsburg it within spitting distance..so I feel like we live in a large community. You never run out of town it seems..but because of being a peninsula we feel close to our neighbors and you really get to know a lot of people...

Where I grew up it was a neighborhood that had lots of mixed homes and businesses .,.we had a German grocer on one corner, a Polish grocer on another, a Jewish dry good store across the street from an Irish pub, another corner had a Polish tavern, there were dry cleaners, confectioner stores, shoe repair shop, doctor's who had their office in their homes...it was really a mix and it was a great place to grow ..we knew everyone around for at least four blocks and when you were out walking people sitting on thier porch would hello you and sometimes invite you up to chat or have some homemade ice cream. I had to grow up and become a senior lady and travel a great deal before I realized what an ideal neighborhood I lived in then.

We also had hoboes stop at our house for food during those years. Mother always made them something.Once I recall all she had to offer were Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches...the young man said that was fine and she made him three sandwiches and since it was summer time gave him ice tea..with the ice being chipped from the block in our ice box...we were never allowed to talk to them but I can see myself with my nose against the screen door watching him eat those sandwiches. Hitchhiking was okay and my three older brothers often did that. MHC makes me remember a time that has long passed and I think we are poorer because of that but it is a wonderful time to remember...anna

Ella, I think it was Anna who mentioned that her mother rented out the upstairs of her home after the death of Anna's father to make ends meet. How tender she and her mother were with each other. Anna commented that her father died just two months before her scheduled wedding, leaving her mother alone and with some money problems.

"I offered to postpone my wedding but my mother insisted that daddy had been happy with my choice and if I stayed home for a year it would be harder for her to let me go."

Your mother must have been a wonderful woman who wanted the best for her children, and I believe that you Anna, were a tender daughter. I find the loving feelings that people express to each other in ordinary life are very moving. Your mother, like Mrs. Clark, shared food with passing hoboes but she very wisely protected YOU from contact with them. Even in a simpler, more trusting era she was a protective, smart mother.

This book, KITCHEN PRIVILEGES, is filled with the goodness of people responding to life and its difficulties. So far, MHC has had her share of tragedies. She has lost a father and a brother and suffered the difficulties that come with not enough money and sharing her home with strangers. Yet the book has a sunny quality because of the resilience, strength and lovingness of the Clark family.

Harriet

I went to an elementary school where it was expected that all girls sew their own eighth grade graduation dress by hand. All of us girls took a class in sewing in our final year and the sewing teacher helped us to cut out the pattern and put the dress together. I worked on a pink eyelet dress.

I hated sewing...didn't enjoy anything about it. Moreover the sewing teacher seemed to go out of her way to scold me. Since I was a youngster who was generally good with academics and most teachers were encouraging to me, I never did figure out the source of her animosity.

When the time came to sew the seams of the dress together I decided to do my best even if I didn't enjoy it. I worked painstakingly in class and at home and made the stitches as even and small as I could. When I was done, the fabric looked rumpled, but I was proud of my job. It had been a major effort for me and I had worked on it a long time.

I brought the finished dress to the sewing teacher. "You used a SEWING MACHINE," she accused me, staring at my tiny stitches

"No," I explained. "I sewed as carefully as I could."

"Using a sewing machine is cheating," the teacher announced to the class.. She ripped apart the seams of my dress.

You're right, Ella. I never forgot that humiliation or the frustration of not being believed. Here I am telling the story 55 years later and I can STILL get upset over it, I cried, my mother came to school and vouched for me. I don't know, maybe by that time the teacher HAD to stick to her story because she had torn my dress.

In the end I surely DID wear a machine sewn dress to my graduation, straight from a store. A few other sympathetic teachers came by to tell me my store-bought dress looked nice on graduation day, so I suppose the story eventually circulated among the teaching staff also.

Harriet

Harriet,

You memory about the dress really stirred a memory for me I thought was forgotten. In high school our Home Ec teacher was so critical of the way seams were done and finished I could have broken out in hives! My sister who was 16yrs. older than me and an excellant seamstress saved the situation by stating "for pete's sake, you are not going to wear the dress inside out!" I've repeated this comment in many situations that cause stress....you are not going to wear the dress inside out!

Marge

Enjoyed the trip down memory lane. Triggered a few of my own such as, the charlotte russe. Do you remember the charlotte russe with about l/2 inch of cake covered with about 3 inches of whipped cream held in by a scalloped white oaktag ( I think) wrapper. Or how about the iceman delivering a large cake of ice for the ice box. I also remember my mom having a fan blow on a large cake of ice to emulate our own home-made air conditioning. It did help somewhat. And finally I remember in the "40's" my "rich" aunt bought a t-v. Every Tuesday nite the entire extended family would go to her home and sit in front of the T-V on rows of folding chairs to watch the Milton Berle show. What a treat!

Hi, Tryxsie. It's lovely to meet you!

There was a candy store around the block from my childhood apartment building in the Bronx and I loved to go there for Charlotte Russe and the long tapes lined with pill-like colored candy. It was right next to the overhead El train. The taste of whipped cream in my mouth goes hand-in-hand with the roar of the El train grinding into the train station above. How come cake now-a-days never seems to taste as moist and flavorful as Charlotte Russe cake?

One of my earliest memories, I must have been three years old or younger, was standing with my big sister holding my hand and getting a tiny sliver of ice from the iceman to put on my tongue. Just delicious on a hot day!

Thanks for the memories, Tryxsie.

Harriet

When I was 8 we moved to a two story house, the upstairs being a small apt. with a private entrance for my grandma, she refused to live there, wanting to stay in her own house. So mom & dad decided to rent it out. A disaster, the young couple were loud and she fried stuff and the odor came down to us. Then we rented just the bedrooms to"roomers" guys that were temporarily working at Standard Oil on construction of the infamous CAT Cracker ( source of fires later on). One stayed for a few years(a married guy) and one stayed longer(single guy)--he finally got "kitchen privileges" and even went on vacations at the same resort with us. We went to his wedding when he left us and kept in touch for years. Both came to my folks' funerals some 30+ years later.

I came here because of the "clickable"...and have enjoyed all you comments so much I kept hitting the "previous" until I got back to the first post. Must get the book...can't be as good as your memories, though!

Yes, to the skinned knees. My older brothers taught me to roller skate as soon as I walked. The skates were my sister's,(she was over 4 years older), but she didn't play with the boys or do anything outside. I also inherited her bike, had red tires from early days before the war. It came from under my grandmother's neighbor's house, I was along when we went to get it. My sister wanted no part of it and I was thrilled! It was full size and I was 6, but I soon learned, no training wheels back then.

What really cracked me up was the Home Ec teacher story. Since it was a required subject in high school, I knew I was doomed. First of all, I didn't like to follow patterns and would change a sleeve or hem or waistband of a skirt. My teacher delighted in humiliating me because everything didn't always turn out right. No credit for originality in there! I'm sure my attitude of distain for her class didn't help, but by the time we were seniors it was almost out right war.

Our cheerleading uniforms, and pep club uniforms had been bought by the school probably 5-6 years before they got to me. Each year we had to find someone our size to "sell" to, for $5. The last week of school for Seniors was near and I needed to pass my uniforms on to the girl I had sold to, but couldn't seem to catch her (we were so busy <BG>) so I found from the office that she was in "Home Ec". I knocked on the door, the teacher nodded for me to approach her, I explained what my problem was and she told me to "go ahead and give her my uniforms". As I headed toward the girl, the teacher started on a sermon about "These privileged characters that think they can interrupt a class any time they please..." I was so shocked I know I must have stood there with mouth open for 30 seconds before I turned and gave her my dirtiest look, said to the sitting close enough to hear, "that OLD BIDDY"...and stalked out.

Later I heard that she thought I mouthed a different word that started with "b"...but it wasn't in my daily vocabulary and I hadn't thought of it. Would have been appropiate, though. Funny how it still upsets me. I could handle being critized when I deserved it, but fairness was a matter of principle but when she gave me a "D" for that class, I took my grades to the principal and explained her attitude. He told me that he couldn't change grades, that I should take it up with her. Instead, during all the Senior commencement activities, etc., I refused to speak to her. Thought that was only fair. I would never look "at" her, but "through" her. All of the students that knew me were indignant with her treatment, so there was some satisfaction in that.

Sorry to go on so long, I've thoroughly enjoyed stopping by here and will head to the library first thing Monday. I haven't found a book I can put down until finished, often staying up through the night, so really hate to buy one that I don't look at again. I love to read but can't control my addiction so just don't bring one in unless I know I'm up to the late hours. Nice to see/meet you all.

Thanks for the welcome, Ella. I've called the library, they have 4 copies and I am #8 on the waiting list. Y'all have tweeked my interest, am I'm anxious to read it.

Glad you came by, TISIE! Keep checking the library every day to see if your book has come in - meanwhile, I'll quote parts of it now and then.

WEre you one of those that wanted to get married early?

Tisie,

This is spooky! We must have had the same Home Ec teacher! The principal was my advocate in my case and took my side against her verbal abuse. I think she had a BA dergree OK. It was Bad Attitude!

Do get Kitchen Privleges, it gives insight to an author's life and the incentives that made them "writers"

Marge

We have a great libary system and they'll call. Yes, to the married early...at 19 and immediately went to England to be with my new husband (USAF). But, since he only had a couple stripes I had to go as a "visitor", then clock in as being married.

My first (a girl) was born the week after I turned 21. I didn't know how to cook and being the last of 5 kids, didn't know what to do with a baby. I didn't even know that I was supposed to be taking vitamins when I was pg, so about half way through the doctor pulled my lower eye lid down and peered in and asked "how many"...and was busy giving the nurse orders about what I should do. On job training!

Besides all those problems, I couldn't find anything I recognized in the local stores. We lived "English"...only visited the main base when I got pg, and only got to their PX to buy American foods at that time. Talk about handicapped! My little Betty Crocker cookbook talked over my head, took me a year to find garlic in the Chemist Shop and I couldn't buy hamburger, that was for their dogs. When it said "bay leaves to taste" on my first try at stewed chicken....I kept tasting and ended up putting the whole box in. It didn't mention that it got stronger as it cooked. Ah, well. Did I mention I got a "D" in Home Ec?...haha...In cooking class we each put one ingredient into the pot and no clue what the others were doing. Real life was a shock. I was thrilled to find cake mixes in the PX, but had a problem with keeping enough shillings on hand to put in the gas meter. Was like a carwash, it just stopped when the money ran out, and you couldn't put a whole lot in at once. I don't know why.

The flat we lived in was remodeled end of a large estate on the Henley Road, just outside of Marlow. I was told it was the house where Wallis Simpson and the King met visited. Loved the 3 and half years there, but was hard knowing I couldn't go home unless it was to stay.

Camper2, the principal was my buddy back in the 1st grade. He let me take my pet chicken to school for "show & tell", and pushed her around in my doll buggy himself. He had moved on to high school about the same time I got there. But I think the "Old Biddy" had him bluffed, too. Since I was at the end of school and he had to work with her for many more years he let me down, I thought.

I want to go check to see your bios...but will post first. I know this will get lost in cyberland if I look first. p.s. My real name is Shirley...tisie was my mother's nickname, given by her first grade teacher. Her real name was Palagie (sounds like Gigi with Pala in front). There was already a Shirley on SrNet.

SHIRLEY - what wonderful memories and thanks for sharing them with us. Why England? WWII perhaps? No? Is there anyone here my age, hahaha! I married a WWII veteran after he came out of the Navy and I'm feeling old here today! Help!

MARGE brings up an interesting point! We have not taken the time to critique this book at all - we are just doing the first 62 pages of it and I thought we might get into that later; but let's stop here and ask ourselves why did MHC write?

There are monetary reasons later on (which we will get into in the next few chapters), but here we have a young lady who has written poetry, plays, short stories and kept a diary faithfully. What was her incentive? Was it more than just a love of words? Did her future loom somewhere in her horizon, unseen when she was young? Why?

And now that we have just about read the first 62 pages of the book, what do you think? Is the book, perhaps, too little? Too "pollyannish?" Could she have fleshed out the people she wrote about and made a better book? What is her style of writing?

”I was dressed in garments thin, I was the outsider looking in…”

Written to express her loneliness in an empty house, empty of her beloved father and brother. Was it such terrible poetry?

Aren’t you surprised that MHC turned down two job offers before she decided on the right one? It certainly shows maturity and the work sounded very interesting.

You asked why she wrote....when I first started taking poetry classes our professor asked why we wrote and my reply was I could not not write....I cant remember when I didnt write something...poor poetry, for now one had shown me how, little stories, my feelings about things, etc. I have kept so much and not long ago I came across a sort of journal..and there was a paragraph about my next door neighbors dog ...named Skippy..at that time we didnt have a dog and I adored Skippy a mutt...he ran into the street and was hit by a car...and my words were a farewell to him.

While it was an Irish family where I was nutured I also believe any child and especially one from years ago and especially girls who were encouraged to be whatever they wanted to be. When you are cherished as a child it gives you courage and belief in your own talents, your own skills and abilities. MHC had all of those and a will to achieve them. Her mother did not tell her she couldnt but told her she could!

Since she had no self doubt she just did...and thank goodness since she has given the mystery world a great many good reads...anna

I went to England in Dec. of '54, the Korean War. My husband was transferred to a little base outside of High Wycombe. Mostly underground, and no longer open. My oldest brother was 11 years older so I felt like a part of his life and the rest of my siblings. I really "jumped into" their lives so never felt an age difference.

I haven't read the book, yet, but I've noticed most people that write of their childhood look at life as though watching themselves in a movie. I thought it was because of being the youngest, that I did that, but maybe it's like another "talent" instead of being a musician, or artist, or neat and organized. My sister, a little over 4 years older, was so focused on herself and her fears and desires that she doesn't remember anything of the life going on around. When I mention things that happened she has no recall if it didn't happen to her personally. She is & was very particular, neat and prim. We are opposites.

My memory of my grandfather's funeral, the week of my 2nd birthday, was looking at this little girl as I wandered around the house, with the coffin in the parlor, people milling around and lots of food in both kitchens. Being put down for a nap in the bedroom opposite the parlor and looking out the window at cars winding down the road to the little river village, and the cows that munched along the steep hill. I knew what she was thinking, and smiled at my secret that the grown-ups talked about me like I didn't understand. Haha, I listened and watched, and kept it to myself for years. When my grandmother died 35 years later, I described my grandfather's funeral to my parents and they were amazed. I was filling out the funeral book and that was when I realized it was the week of my 2nd birthday, and not a vague..maybe 4 or 5.

Ella, I've always said of myself that I am Pollyanna and Scarlett, because I will find good or think about it tomorrow. When ever I think of what I am doing, it is as though watching myself from above. I thought it was "normal".

Good morning.

Just a quick hello to you all. It has begun SNOWING around here. Can you believe it? Spring is in hiding and won't come out! There is some possible accumulation projected.

I'm on my way out of the house to do some errands before the roads become less drivable. See you all later. I wanted to make some comments about our book.

I love reading about all of your memories.

Harriet

WHERE DID ALL THE PEOPLE GO?

Are you through with the book and don't want to discuss it further?

No comments?

I realize this is a sweet little book - emphasis on "SWEET" and "LITTLE." Our author truly did not write a book of her life, just small anecdotes intended to amuse and entertain with a few facts she could not ignore.

BUT IT BRINGS TO MIND ALL MEMORIES OF OUR YOUTH, OUR MORES, OUR PASTIMES. I thought it would be enjoyable just to reminisce - NO?

Perhaps I was mistaken? Do let me know.

I read it and enjoyed it what do you want me to discuss?

Oh, so many questions, Ruth.

Did you like the description of her future husband? (p.62) Would you have dated him a second time? Hahahaha (not me)

How many men had you dated before you were married? I think MHC had just dated one prior to Warren.

Should young women date a lot of men before choosing one?

How did you meet your husband and did you know right away he was the one?

As did MHC I loved the line - "God, it was beastly hot in Calcutta!" It changed her life - is there any one particular thing, incident, statement that changed your life?

That will do for starters? And that's just one page in the book (I think)

Ella, I did not like her first husband either. He did not propose to MHC. Without asking her to marry him, he started writing the guest list. He seemed sort of controlling to me. If the marriage will work, I don't know. I have only read the sixty-two pages.

I married at twenty-three. I did not date many guys. I had very protective parents. I met my husband at a church dance. No, I did not like him immediately.

She liked first husband, and yes I'd have married him if I were her, she obviously was madly in love with him. And it obviously worked with all those children.

I dated many at college. No it wasn't love at first sight with us, we kind of grew on each other. Still growing after 39 years.

When I remember this I have to laugh out loud. While my parents were protective I also had three much older brothers and I would never have dated someone who had not met my parents and brothers. I dated a lot but only started at 16 since that was the "AGE" nice girls started dating. My parents gave me a "SWEET SIXTEEN PARTY" and I had my real first date from the party. Since marriage was not on my mind I never considered any of the young men in that way. It was a fun time and we were all great friends.

But when I met the man I was to marry he was dating a good friend of mine and I was engaged to another young man. After about 7 mos of the engagement he told me he wanted to be just like his father whom I found to be a very controlling, obnoxious person...when he left that evening I threw up at the idea... after a couple of weeks of soul searching I knew I could NEVER marry this man. So I gave his ring back and broke up with him. He was a handsome man, looked like Rock Hudson but I was wise enough to know it would never worked out. His later marriage didnt work out for all the reasons I suspected would be true.

Anyway LOL I think I am writing my story here. My friend and her boyfriend had a disagreement and she called to ask me if I was going to the dance that night...It was a dance for college students and I said yes, she asked me then to talk with Bob her boyfriend and see if I could patch the relationship. I flatly told her NO NO NO I didnt like him anyway and felt she should just be glad. Any way he wasnt at the party so there was no problem ..but the next day I missed my bus to church and had to walk. There were several streets I could take but I chose my favorite which was near the church he attended although I didnt know that. As I am approaching the corner where his church was located I saw this lanky Ichabod character hurrying on a side street with his black choir robe over his arm...I would never had said hello and almost didnt but since Janet my friend had put this request to me at the last moment I called hello. He came to me and asked where I was going and offered to pick me up after church at mine...I said no but then he invited me to go to the campus that afternoon for a 6 man football game he was playing in ....I would have said no but I had broken my engagement and there was a young man at school I sort of wanted to let know I was now free to date so I said yes. Of course we arrived there was Janet and another girlfriend ..I truly wished the ground would open and I had no time to tell her the situation.. Thenext day she called to see what was going on and I told her..she asked if he had asked me out and I said no, and she kept asking questions that implied I had double crossed her.. when she inquired as to would I go out with him if he asked I said well I wouldnt have but now I just may! He did ask and I did say yes since it was to a birthday party of some other friends...the he told me he had tickets to a STAN KENTON concert so I said yes...at the end of the evening he proposed marriage and I replied YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING >>>Not only am I not ready to get married but you would be the last person I would want to marry...well of course I eventually did marry and until his death in 1994 we had over 40 great years and 4 wonderful children. but that is another story...anna

I enjoyed reading KITCHEN PRIVILEGES a lot. It leaves a few questions hanging though. It's a memoir, not an autobiography, and even though MHC writes continuously about herself and her life, she seldom opens up to the ESSENCE of who she is. She tells all of these charming, funny anecdotes, but only ONCE IN A WHILE does the real woman peek through. We're left to guess at who she really is by putting together diverse bits of her writing. Ella brought up one of those moments:

"I was dressed in garments thin, I was the outsider looking in…”

This was written after the loss of both her father and her brother. MCH, who had been so richly dressed in the love and warmth of her family, so protected by the security of their presence, is now facing the cold winds of reality.

Have you noticed how she jumps around in time frames in the first part of the book? Maybe she protects herself from anguish by touching each thing lightly and then coming back to it later.

Wasn't it extraordinary the way MCH wrote of the death of her older brother, Joe? She tells us about the prayers offered in her school for the souls of the young men killed in WW II, and quite suddenly comes a startling sentence..."And then it was MY turn: (The nuns announced during morning prayers) We will pray for the repose of the soul of Mary Higgins's brother, Joseph."

It's almost a throwaway revelation. What a world of private grief must be hidden in that sentence! As a teen MCH wrote, on page 29 of KITCHEN PRIVILEGES:

"Happiness is like mercury. Hard to hold, and when we drop it, it shatters into a million pieces. Maybe the bravest of all are those WHO HAVE THE COURAGE TO REACH FOR IT AGAIN."

On the page following that quote is a poignant photo of a little Mary with her beloved brother Joe. When I read those lines and saw that photo, it made me admire the everyday gallantry with which I feel MCH faced life.

I wonder, if by some miracle MCH were given a choice between having all the fabulous success and wealth of her writing career OR keeping her family intact with her father and brother living a happy and long life span, which one would she choose?

Yet with all the tragedy that is in Part One of the book, the narrative maintains an unfailingly sunny and pleasant tone.

Now THERE Is a writer!

Harriet

I don't want to throw a clunker in here and spoil things for those who have not yet finished the book. . .but, I felt she rather glossed over the support she got from her mother after the death of her first husband. Not only would she not be a renowned writer with a million dollars but without her mother coming to her aid at that time her children would have been left to housekeepers and and not have felt the love and continuation of a real family after the death of thier father. Her mother stepping in made the loss a little easier for those kids and life much easier for her. I think she should have shown more appreciaition for the role her mother played in their lives. How many Grandmothers would cheerfully take a brood to an amusement park in thier 70's?

Like so many authors she never gave up on writing and you have to admire her committment which brought her where she is today don't you think? Up at 5:00 am in order to write? Shows love not just talent for her chosen field! More accolades for Mom was needed from my perspective though.....

Marge

Somehow, as much as I enjoy MHC and her writing style, even in this little book, I think somewhere along the line, she obligated herself to write an autobiography, had a hard time doing it, and so ended up with this "little ditty". Somehow, she felt the need to hold on to a measure of her privacy while fulfilling her obligation??? But she does give us a trip down memory lane. Did you have John Thompson music books when you took piano lessons? I still have my stack even though, like MHC, I took lessons, but somehow music just wouldn't stick with me.

Lou

I felt her love and appreciation of her mom came thru, alot was implied tho. No more was needed in my opinion. I'd gladly take grandson anywhere. The joy of my life.

Hi, I'm just lurking. Caught Ginny's quib about living in Holmsburg. Had to tell you that I lived South of Ginny in Mayfair. We went sledding on the same hills but did not know each other. That of course is because she is still a teenager...... I am enjoying the discussions. I wanted to reply several times but there was no message box after the last discussion until now. I think Ginny stoled it and then put it back.....I must run out to get this book before it is too late. I have read all MHC's books as I buy them for my daughter as she is a fan of Clarks. What do you all think of the daughter's books? Thanks for trying to rescue me, Ginny. I owe you a cream donut unless you've given them up for Lent........

I am enjoying the memoir. Like Harriet, I feel that there is some side of MHC that is missing. This does not bother me. I feel that lately, autobiographies and memoirs seem to be about airing the family's skeletons. For example, more is told about the unhappier side of life.

MHC chose not to discuss this in her memoir. I think this choice makes her memoir refreshing. It gives us a breather from the dreary and rough side of life. My assessment could be wrong. I am just beginning the next set of chapters.

Warren's attitudes toward MHC's writing were so supportive. I loved the description of her writing class. Somehow I've always thought writers were just kind of born. Of course, that's not true and her description of the methods her teacher used and then later the writing group shared were really interesting to me. I always dreaded creative writing assignments. Every attempt to write a poem or a story was worse than the last.

Carol Higgins Clark's books are such fun to read, for instance, Snagged takes place at a panty hose convention!

Don't you think this book reflects MHC's positive outlook, mostly saying while bad things happen to us all, so do wonderful things, and we chose what we focus on???

Lou

Lou2, I enjoyed reading about MHC's writing experiences too. She had a wonderful teacher. I liked reading about her first story. She used her experiences as a stewardess and took off from there.

I did not think Warren would be a great husband. He ended up being perfect for her. They lived happily ever after. Nowadays, young people seem to think that it's impossible to meet the right guy immediately. In their words, you have to "shop around." MHC proves the right guy can be the first guy or nearly the first guy.

I knew about MHC's daughter. I never knew she had five children. I have seen her on t.v. She looks wonderful for her age.

OH! YOU ARE ALL HERE AND WANT TO CONTINUE, WELL LET'S BEGIN! Let's waltz right into the next section which is pgs. 63-111, shall we....

Watzing Matilda

A song that Mary and her chums sang at the end of a night out.

What grand experiences you all have had with husbands (I married a "lanky Ichabod character" too, Anna) and what fun to read them all!

Didn't you find parts of the book very funny? I was laughing out loud at several passages and I don't normally do that!

I'm going to copy one such for those who are lurking or don't have their book yet: (this is a flight attendant lesson as Mary has been accepted as a stewardess)

"Just remember, girls, water is harder than concrete. But if you get lucky and the plane doesn't break up on contact, it will float anywhere from three minutes to three days. Assume you've got three minutes. Grab the raft...inflate it outside the plane. Then...and now listen hard....Give a mighty sweep of your arm and shout 'FOLLOW ME'"

Do I have a weird sense of humor or is that funny?

And ticket agents weren't supposed to sell tickets to anyone who was more than six months pregnant? And stewardesses were taught to deliver babies? Are they still?

And her two tales of life in England were hilarious! Shall I quote the roast beef story for those who don't have the book? Okay, I will! (It was in 1949 and England was still suffering the effects of the devastating war.. The guys from the plane had told Mary to order roast beef for dinner, so, of course, she did, thinking it was the best thing on the menu)

"Oh love," (the waitress said with a sigh) "I'm so sorry, but the roast beef's finished. The six crew members I was sitting with chimed in to finish the sentence with her, then explained. In post-war London there was an acute shortage of beef, but the Brits did not want to see it disappear from the menu. So it was always listed, and when someone not in the know requested it the same stock answer was given in restaurants all over England - Oh, love, I'm sorry, but the roast beef's finished."

I loved it!

And the line when the lady wearing a ton of makeup, a raunchy fur, etc., told her while she was standing on a corner getting her bearings - "Beg your pardon, love, but this is my corner."

Hahahahaha

Some of you are ahead of the schedule, please do not talk about events that are in the latter part of the book, as most of us are attempting to follow along, okay?

Keep your comments coming, we all love to read each other's reminiscences. I'm afraid I'm getting too windy here, must close for now.....

later, ella

Just this instant was checking my clickable to Waltzing Matilda and I saw the HANDY HINTS at the bottom of the page - I never knew the words had such meanings - be sure to look at the bottom of the page where you will find these - and more:

Waltzing - walking along a bush track


Matilda - a bedroll


Swagman - an unemployed drifter

Ella, I laughed about the street corner in England too. MHC shows her sense of humor throughout the book. I had a preconceived idea that a mystery writer must be a very serious person. Well, MHC strips that thought away.

MHC talks about natural childbirth too. None of her five children were born naturally. I have four grown sons. For my first birth, I was under anesthesia. The other three were born naturally. If asked which birthing method was best for me, I would say being asleep. Looking back, it was much better not feeling a bit of pain! My husband was with me for two of the births.

Now, there are birthing rooms. My daughter-in-law's birthing room at the hospital was like a large living room or den. Now, families videotape the birth of babies. Bringing babies into the world changes just like other situations in the world.

I remember Harry Belafonte singing Waltzing Matilda. I loved that song. He could sing it with that Calypso beat.

Ella, we are in the second week and on pages 63-111, right?

Lou

Yes, Lou, that's right! While I'm here, did you discuss sex with your children and did they ever thank you for it? Did you laugh at the sex education MHC got? Tis a wonder we all got through that stage of life, thank goodness all that indecision is behind us!

Ella, I am sorry. I must have jumped ahead in the discussion. I did enjoy reading about the sex education and comparing it to my own education. At times, I do get excited and jump ahead. Sorry.

Hi CMAC! Glad you posted. Try to get the book, you won't be sorry.

Hats, this book was so lovely that I just kept reading until I finished it. Of course now I have to think extra hard to stay within our reading schedule because it isn't always easy to remember what happened when. By the way, please forgive me everyone. I was reversing our author's initials in some of my posts, but I hope I've got them straight now.

Like many of you, I also am glad to find a book that exudes hope and strength. Aren't we all living in times when some cheer is welcome?

I kind of think that Mary chased Warren until he caught her. She had a crush on him forever, and he probably knew it. Moreover, Warren's mother seemed to feel that Mary would be a good match for her son. Remember how Mrs. Clark said that Mary was attractive? And how she wanted Warren to stay home when Mary was visiting them? Poor Warren! He never had a chance! I bet he TRIED to stay away from her initially to be sure that any future relationship was really his own idea.

He was a pretty considerate guy, I thought. He was supportive of Mary's dream job as a stewardess despite the prolonged separations. By the time they finally married, Mary had traveled the world extensively, met bunches of interesting people and she felt ready for all that marriage involved.

I thought the advice that Mary got in her writing class about how to put together a plot was an eye-opener.

Suppose? What if?

In her imaginative brain those two questions became the basis of her plots. Isn't it interesting that so many of her initial stories were rejected? It must be SUPER-DIFFICULT to break into writing and make your first sales.

Harriet

Good morning HATS and Harriet! Thanks so much your posts and, yes, it must be hard to break into writing. One of our reference librarians writes books (with 3 children at home, imagine!) and she got an agent and has published about 6 novels due to her persistence; however she is writing paperback romance novels which is not her goal but an area where one can get published more easily than others. She is hoping someday to publish a hardcover good novel, it all takes time.

Don't worry about getting ahead, I just like us all to be on the same page and discussing the same events! It makes for a better discssion and more fun for all of us.

I previously asked about sex education by parents or schools - MHC had a funny story to tell about Catholic schools in this regard. She received no education from her mother.

Did you attempt to provide your children with enlightment??? Did the schools? Did your school when you were young?

I remember all the girls were brought into the school library and talked to by a fellow (yes, a man) and the thing that most puzzled me about it was a very popular girl in our high school got up crying in the middle of it and ran out of the room, followed by two of her friends. I never knew, but had an idea the poor thing was already pregnant. Of course, the boys had a similar meeting (you can bet a woman didn't lecture them!-haha) The inequalities of the day.

Hi Ginny!

We were posting together - nice to have you here. And you think MHC compromised her integrity by writing Carole's first book? Hmmmmmmm - I must confess I never read any of Carole's books, but have read a couple of MHC.

Is everyone still interested in renting the same video when we finish the book and discussing it? I think it would be fun----

That would be so fun, Ella! I hope we can all find the same selection at the same time.

I'd enjoy it!

Harriet

Mine was totally lacking...My mother insisted I take a sex education class at school and I remember the slides or movie but I can tell you it was all about pigs and I had NO IDEA what they were talking about NEVER DID.

Books I read were more enlightning but not as bold or as open as they are now. As far as my children, the oldest one brought home that book about sex ...cant remember the title but learned a lot about what people thought sex was...and a lot of it made me laugh out loud ..it sounded like a school boy's fantasy. If sex is all any wants to know about there are lots of books but sex and love are not the same...

The rest of my children were knowledgeble and I just gave them my opinions ...Once we were watching one of the bolder movies on TV and my youngest son (about 18) said Mom you dont want to watch this. I asked why and he said it was all about sex,,,made me laugh and I told him I HOPE I KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN YOU !!!!!!!! We have had an easy relationship about sex but what I always emphasized was dont mistake sex and love..you can live without sex but you cant live without love. Since they are all happily married I guess they found what their parents did a nice mix of both. anna

Anna, You are so righ Remember the song first comes Love, marriage Then the baby carriage, to many people think that sex is Love but it is not. Love is from the heart, sex is of the body. Just my opinion. I was also raised a catholic and did not learn of sex from Mom Dad or the Teachers but being a farm gal saw the animals mating but thought nothing of it as for humans. Duh.Smle.

As I'm looking over the book, I found 1949 was the year Mary spent traveling-- and I got to thinking about '49.... I was 7 years old, in the second grade, all legs with thick glasses and freckles that were the first thing you saw!! Loved the boy next door on one side and Mrs. Horsely the older neighbor lady on the other. My sister and I walked to the library every Saturday morning... counted cars on the front porch in the hot afternoons along Route 66... lots of family around, aunts, grandparents, cousins galore!! I truely thought Oklahoma was the center of the world! I'm not even sure I had seen a map at that point to understand the continents and here MHC was traveling the globe!! What were you doing in '49???

Lou

I like and remember the song Ginger brings up in her post. I think this generation knows far more than we ever knew about sex. I remember my first class in sex was really a health education class. Still, the boys were separated from the girls. They went to another class supposedly about sex.

All of us became so excited thinking we were really going to hear about "sex." Not so. We lived in a different time. Now you can learn about sex by just looking at a t.v. commercial.

Hats I found Love and Marriage and do hope you like it.

Music

I enjoyed hearing it again.

Thank you, Ginger. I love that song. Thanks for the link.

Hats, Your welcome and I am Glad you like it.

In 1949? I was very busy in 1949 - 23 years old and working, dancing, dating, having a ball! Also late that year I accepted an engagement ring and started planning my marriage which took place in 1950.

But I understand how a youngster, even a teen, believes that her hometown is the center of the world, and then, you begin to wonder....and you wander....

Lou, I am a few years older than you, but, hopefully, just as spry? A touch of arthritis here and there but going strong otherwise!

MHC and her husband moved into an apartment in NYC and just for fun I looked up Stuyvesant Town, where her apartment was located, on the Internet and found a delightful story, which appeared in the New York Times not long ago. Do read it, you will enjoy it - do you think it is good writing? Click here: Stuyvesant Town

Here is a clickable to an article and a few little pics of Stuyvesant Town: Stuyvesant Town (Acres of greenery in New York City! And a river runs through it - a park also)

As she said in her book, the area is still very nice and the apartments are much sought after.

later, ella

I was 9 then and adjusting to my mother in the hospital alot. Within a year she had a partial hysterectomy( they did it that way). Then 6 mos later the other half, and then 1 month later an emergency gall bladder operation. I just found some notes I left for my dad as I stayed next door with neighbors as he worked shift work. No "roomers" yet then. The notes were about needing lunch money,what clothes I needed for school the next day,etc.

Ella I'm getting spryer day by day. I have lots more energy since getting those teeth, even tho not using them well. Went 4 places this morning and 6 this afternoon. Wasn't as tired as used to be. Came home and made some supper--got some skinless/boneless chicken thighs. Pounded them a bit, seasoned them and browned them a bit. Topped with cream of mushroom soup (no cream of chicken on hand) with water and some more seasonings and let it go for half an hour covered in my big skillet. mmmmmmmmmm good. Mashed potatoes and V-8. Topped by a piece of choc pie I got at Meijer yesterday. Gums hurt a bit, and found some bits of parsley under bottoms, they still float. But did fairly well, forgot how small regular teeth broke meat up when chewing. duh Had a whole thigh and lots of potatoes.

That was the year I married at 22..which is really odd since 22 is still the age I feel. As a child I traveled a great deal with a dear aunt and uncle who had no children. Everytime they took a long weekend trip or vacation I went along so my taste for travel was whetted. My husband was in ROTC and after he recieved his commission went into the USAF and became a pilot. He was from Pennsylvania and I from Missouri..he was sent to Texas for his basic training and I followed by train as soon as he had a place to live, we moved three times in Texas, then to Arizona, Germany, France and back to Tennessee, Okinawa, Florida and finally and last Virginia.

I still love to travel but after 30 years here my roots are deep and my children and grandchildren all live near so my wanderlust has faded and I am often glad to stay at home. I can read when I want, eat what I like and when I desire, take classes and garden. I hate to leave my garden now as it needs me...it has been a great life and now I have all of you to talk too..life doesnt get better than that....anna

Anna, I also grew up in MO, left there in late '54 (at 19) as a new bride to join my AF husband in England. Like you, have been planted here in KS since '60, so it's home to our 3 kids and 7 grands. Guess we'll never leave, but I still would like to see more of the US (all the way to Alaska) if I could pry this guy I married nearly 50 years ago out of his rut. He loves his home, family, golf and life and could care less if he ever wandered. Guess there's worse things to live with, huh?

Edit: I grew up in Sedalia but was born in Jeff.City and have kin all over that area. Have you visited over in the MO Discussion? They are getting together at Columbia this next Sat. and I'm eating my heart out because we can't make it. Check them out...good bunch..

I don't have any grandchildren but I have vivid memories of my mother helping us out with my son. It was very hard for me to leave our son each morning and go back to teaching while our son was little. We were saving for a house and we owe SO MUCH to my mother's generous love and help.

When I watched my mother and my son together it was like looking at a window into my own past. The expressions on her face when she greeted the baby...the joy on my son's face when he saw her come in before I left for work were remarkable to me. She taught him endless games and sang him tender songs. I can still hear her voice singing to him in her accented English:

I love you a bushel and a peck,
A bushel and a peck and a HUG around the neck...

She sang him tender Yiddish lullabies and taught him infant games to confirm how brilliant she thought he was. "See," she would tell me as she showed me his newest accomplishment of Patty Cake, or a clap hands game: "See how smart the baby is!" she would crow. She always thought ALL her grandchildren were wonderful and was overcome with love for whichever one she was with.

As I watched her, I would find myself thinking that she must have been just like this with ME and my sister and brother when we were infants. It was a glimpse into my own past and the mother/child relationship that was mine so long ago. She adored infants and doted on her own grandchildren.

Sometimes time can make the relationship between a parent and a child more complicated as the child matures into an adult. Surface things can mar our adolescent or adult view of a parent. I was the surprise baby of mother's menopause and someone once told me that my mother thought the sun rose and fell ONLY for me when I was born. I can believe that after watching my mother with my son.

I was grateful to my mother on TWO counts. She not only cared for my small son while I went back to teaching, but she reminded me of all the love that was between us in the past and and in the present also.

Harriet

Harriet, I was a "menopause" baby too. My family called me a "change of life" baby. I came along twenty one years after my sister's birth. When I was born, my sister was out of the house and married. Everyone mistakenly thought that my sister was my mother and that my mom and dad were my grandparents.

I have forgotten the topic. I will have to go back and catch up on other posts.

WHAT RICH MEMORIES ALL OF YOU HAVE BROUGHT TO OUR DISCUSSION - THANKS RUTH, ANNA, SHIRLEY, HARRIET AND HATS!

To return to our book several of you have mentioned Mary’s writing and her teacher, I thought I would quote this paragraph and see if any of you feel the same? Have you ever?

"..I was aching, yearning, burning to write. I wanted to learn how to tell a story. I compare the experience of learning the craft of writing to that of a singer who has genuine talent but who needs to go to a conservatory to be taught to use her voice properly."

Was it LOU who said that she thought writers were just kind of born? I think the creative urge is born within and then you must learn how to use it? Does that make any sense at all?

---

“The concept of natural childbirth was nonexistent.” Yes, yes – I had anesthesia for both of mine, how about the rest of you? My doctor was a very firm guy – I was not to gain over 20 lbs., and he got nasty if you did, but he didn’t believe in mothers suffering through childbirth - put them out of their misery he said – the baby will be more relaxed if the mother is – well, what can we say???

However, this is how I remember the touch of my first newborn – Mary says it well – ”ABSOLUTELY MAGICAL MOMENTS WHEN I FELT THAT I HAD TOUCHED THE WONDROUS HAND OF GOD”

I wrote something like that in my daughter’s baby book.

I certainly didn’t stay a week in the hospital as Mary did; three days though and we had no hospitalization (who did back then?) – we wrote out a check before we left the hospital and I remember the amount was $110 for three days, included everything! Oh, for those days again!

Later,ella

Childbirth!! Doesn't everyone have a story??? First babe... We were in Tacoma, Washington... far from family. My dear husband had morning sickness for 3 months, me, never. He was in the good ole' US Army.. we were shown a movie about childbirth and I decided to be permanently pg!!! We went to the hospital.. he had labor pains as bad or worse than mine!! Finally they admitted me, after hours of walking the halls... but had my name wrong on the admit papers and he had to go back.. labor pains and all. He could hardly walk down the hall!! The cute little teddy bear that delivered our first one just didn't think I was anywhere near ready and when I shouted he came running in, washing his hands, soothing talking about first babies, etc. I said if you'll just examine me, I promise I won't say another word. He examined me, shouted, orderly get this woman to the delivery room... No, the Army didn't believe in anything, so yes, I had natural childbirth, the pain part, not the husband in the delivery room part. The stirrups were set up wrong... The only thing right about all that was the wonderful daughter that resulted!!! LOL

We have laughed and laughed about all that... If I was pg, Dave went to Vietnam (was there for the other 2) and it was a boy!! He thought that was easier than childbirth!! LOL

THat was all long ago and far away!!

Lou

PS. THe bill??? $5.25!!! I was, we were there for 24 hours after she was born. The US Army is a thrifty bunch!!

Lou, I have to admit, my first was much as yours. I was in England, had quite a drive to the base hospital so my husband had our landlord/friend ride along. They joked all the way. Neither thought I could be ready to have a baby, could still wear regular clothes and I wasn't screaming. Got inside and they had someone examine me, told my husband they would keep me overnight for them to go on home. I insisted on keeping a pack of cigaretts (remember, back then it was "relaxing" not bad). I sat out in the waiting room having one contraction after another and hearing the other women screaming so finally told one nurse "if they would give me a bed I'd have this baby and not say a word". Remember the horrible "prep" they did? Oh, yuck...the second nurse threw a fit because the first didn't do the job right so had to go through it all over again. Anyway, I had that baby long before any meds or shots showed up. Like you said, natural before natural was in! The "saddle block" they gave me was only min before she was born, and a couple hours later they had me out of bed to change sheets, etc., a base hospital and you did your own. I think she cost us less than $15. The second was a different story...

MHC says as soon as they returned from their honeymoon she enrolled in her writing class. I wonder how she felt after flying and working forever, to be home... not full time busy?? Interesting she didn't address that. I know she worked on her writing, but with a small apartment and her previous schedule, wonder if she didn't feel she had lots of time on her hands??? Women really do face lots of transitions in their lives, don't we?? Of course, the children came quickly, so she didn't have to worry about filling time for long!!

Lou

Hi everyone. I am enjoying all of ytour Flash Backs. I also was a change of Life Baby or as my aunt said my parent's mistake. I was so dumb that my mothers way of punishing me was to say she was going to run away and get married. I'd run after and cry "Don't get married Mother I'll be good. My brother was 13 years older than I. My sister-in-law told me about sex. I didn't know what the heck she was talking about. Hats what part of Philly was your domain? Ginny I agree with you about MHC's daughter and her first book. I thought I was reading Clark's. The daughters following books are not as good as the first one. The first one did remind me of Love Boat and the next ones were OK but they kind of run on after the point is reached and they get more make believe. So now I'm off to the library to get the book. And also "Little Friend."

CMAC! Do get the book, you'll enjoy - it doesn't take much time to read it but we would love for you to join us down memory lane - gosh, we all have had similar experiences. Well, not exactly......

LOU stated that the "Army didn't believe in anything, so yes, I had natural childbirth, the pain part, not the husband in the delivery room part," and.....

SHIRLEY, another Army wife, agrees with the Army style of bringing babies into the world telling us that she "had that baby long before any meds or shots showed up. Like you said, natural before natural was in!"

Are you both saying that the Services were ahead of their time by promoting natural childborth? Or they took it too casually?

For my first one, I went to the hospital 3 times and two of those times returned home disappointed; my husband had taken days off of work and we needed that money (he didn't get paid for time off unless he was ill) and he worred that the baby was never coming. When she did come she weighed in at 5 pounds - just what my doctor ordered. He liked low-weight babies!

As for MHC being bored - look at the age of those children; she had them one right after the other one. I have an idea she was busy!!!

But she found time to enter a contest to win a gown - professors in college always told me to "write about what you know." She did and won!!!

Ella, I don't know what the Army's philosophy was, I just know that's how it was, with 2 of our children. The last was born in a civilian hospital... but it was exactly the same. Hey, our kids were born healthy and as I said that was all long ago and far away... My pain has long been forgotten, but DH's lives!! I love that story!! And he still blushs and laughs... I swear it's true!! What a guy I married!!

You're right, MHC's kids came fast, but those first few months after the honeymoon... I just wonder if she felt relief or let down... either way, she didn't address it. I was a "housewife" for 20 years and absolutely loved it. We agreed if I needed to work to feed us or send the kids to school I would... so when DH retired I went to work.. 2 kids in college??? What can I say??? Love being a "housewife" again!! They pay me to stay home!!!

Lou

MArriage was something she looked forward to..and of course that was a time when parents and I think especially Catholic parents expected their daughters to marry. It wasnt because they were anxious for them to leave but there was always that feeling IF THEY ARE MARRIED THEN THEY HAVE SOMEONE TO LOOK AFTER THEM. I dont think it was because they thought their daughters werent competent but because as a MOM you want to know your daughter has a protector. MHC as some one said had her eye on Warren and she was what she wanted and needed ...to me he understood her desire to write and of course they expected to have a large family. In my mind he not only loved her but respected her and I am sure that is why she loved him and was desolate after his death...

Several have mentioned this is a small book and in some areas she doesnt flesh out the people in her book sometimes. But to me she is a strong woman and not a whiner.....she has a simple story..she did what she had to ..when her father died and when her husband died. She is not bragging about that and I dont feel she is asking for sympathy..this is the way it was and she states that clearly.

anna

Hear! Hear! Ann. I agree 100%... for whatever good my opinion is.

Lou

ANNA AND LOU! I think it's just great you feel comfortable disagreeing and I'm so pleased that you do -

Some one once said that the art of conversation lies in the ability to disagree without being disagreeable, and that is just what we are doing.

I feel as though I don't know MHC, her mother, her children, her husbands after reading this light, fluffy and sweet book. Where is the anger, the discouragement, the difficulties of life - we all have had them. Her emotions are what is missing, she's so factual, but she is entertaining and for that reason, I would recommend this book to anyone.

What do the rest of you think about the book? We would love to have all of your opinions!

Didn't you laugh at the story of her husband painting a bedroom, knocking over the can and walking downstairs to get a rag to mop up the mess leaving bright yellow footprints on the new carpet - AND pouring the leftover paint down the sink.

She tells a funny story! Hahaha

The way in which her husband, Warren died, reminded me so vividly of a similar situation. My husband wasn't home and I was trying to get a huge limb that was partially falling down from a tree so no one would get hurt when it fell. My retired neighbor came over to help and while doing so he took several angina pills and I said that's it. We will stop right now - it wasn't too long, maybe a year or so later, that he died from a heart attack.

Both died too early for heart surgery!

Let's go on to the next section of the book - PAGES 112-157 okay?

Absolutely, Ella! Onward we go then.

I certainly agree with those who feel that MHC is a strong woman. I loved the story she told about the male acquaintance who behaved crudely toward her after Warren's death. Apparently some not-so-empathetic men believed that an attractive widow like Mary suffered more from the loss of sexual relations than from the loss of the companionship of her beloved husband. She came up with the best response I ever heard when a friend of Warren's offered to "help out" with her sexual needs.

"I think Warren wouldn't have insulted YOUR widow," Mary retorted. Wasn't that a great answer?

Mary talks about some experiences that surely must be universal...raising her children alone, as her mother did... and the feeling of being single in a world of couples. Those must have been enormous adjustments to handle. Those problems are also shared by divorced women. I wonder, is the nature of the adjustment very different in divorce and widowhood? Mary also talks about her writing in greater detail in this section of the book.

Warren rightfully believed in her resilience so strongly that he teased her that she shouldn't appear to be a "blooming" widow after his death. To me, that implies that she and Warren must have had serious conversations about how she and the children should proceed afterwards, if necessary. Those must have been emotional talks.

It is sad that heart by-passes and transplants were unheard of in the not-so-distant past. Since I know several people that I care about who have had heart surgery within the past several years, I'm grateful for current medical advances. My own father died too early for the heart surgery that might have prolonged his life.

Do any of you feel that there's a world of emotion between the lines of this book? I do, and it begins to surface only at the very end of her writing...but that's something we'll save for next week.

I'm down with some sort of "bug" currently. I'm going to take my aching joints and queasy stomach to my recliner now.

Later then...

Harriet

An interesting question, Harriet!

"I wonder, is the nature of the adjustment very different in divorce and widowhood?"

Both parents are living in the divorced state, would that make it more difficult for children to understand?

The finality of death of a parent is heartbreaking, however - well, gosh, I'll have to think about that question further. I don't know, so many factors to consider.

What are the opinions of others in this discussion?

Harriet commented that Mary and "Warren must have had serious conversations about how she and the children should proceed afterwards, if necessary. Those must have been emotional talks."

Probably MHC could have written the entire book about this experience, don't you imagine? I can hardly begin to imagine how two people, two parents, could talk or make plans under such circumstances.

The picture of the family at the beginning of Chapter Ten is an adorable one - such a lovely family! This was in 1961 a year before the first heart attack.

We had a wonderful friend die of cancer; he knew approximatly how much time he had and he was so calm about it. I will never forget his attitude - he prepared for death as if he were going on a long trip and needed to see to affairs at home before leaving. What a great guy - he refused chemotherapy only asking to be kept out of pain.

Well, on this sad note I'm leaving to run out somewhere and get a bite to eat and end up at the Dairy Queen for a hot fudge sundae!

Ella, After all that heart rendering thinking you deserve that Sunday! Watching all the war news on CNN has brought home Vietnam to me. Harriet talked about the conversations that MHC and Warran must have had. DH and I talked about what he wanted in case he didn't come home and I have to say, Harriet is right... those conversations are almost more than you can endure, except they are so necessary... and ours were "just in case" ones, I don't know how in the world MHC managed to get through theirs... except I saw a young widow from this war talking the other day... and have just watch coverage about young Jessica Lynch... "You do what you gotta do" a friend of her's said, and I guess that's how we all get through this life??????

Lou

I have just started the next set of chapters. I wanted to comment about MHC's strength. I think she is truly a strong woman. This is what makes this memoir special. Too often, we don't hear about strong women, women who have lived through difficulties and kept their dignity. MHC is one of these rare women.

All in one night, she loses two very, very special people in her life. I can not imagine the depth of her grief.

We have a dear friend who goes all the way back to my husband's Air Force days in military service. He knew that all the men in his family had died young of heart problems. He and his wife, a very loving couple, had several just-in-case discussions on how she should proceed afterwards, and he kept his wife informed and updated on all their financial arrangements in regular discussions over the years.

As he predicted, he had a massive heart attack, but it occurred while he was in the hospital for a different illness. Within minutes he was hurried into the operating room for a quadruple bypass and came through with flying colors. The era of heart surgery had arrived! He was plainly going to have a much longer life than he had anticipated.

Afterwards his wife talked about her reaction. Of course joy was primary, but she had been deeply affected by anguish and fear over their years of planning for her husband's possible death. Although she was an extremely smart and capable woman she had secretly doubted her ability to survive without him and she had chosen not to burden her husband with the fear she endured.

As a consequence she found herself battling an illogical streak of resentment at her beloved, unexpectedly-alive husband. It was a wonderful anger that she never thought she would wind up with...she was finally able to tell him how hard it was to talk about his possible death and get a sympathetic and supportive hearing from him.

When they told us their story, the husband was still amazed at his good fortune. He was the first male in his family to reach the age of 60. He has recently celebrated his 71st birthday.

I was thinking about how I don't remember anything written about Warren's father. Was he mentioned and I don't remember? Was Warren's mother a widow also? Could Warren have come from a family where the men suffered early death too? The fact that Warren and his brother both died within weeks of each other is just so sad.

Harriet

Mary tells us about the humorous reversal in parent/child attitudes when she accepts a dinner date some time after Warren's death. Her children pepper her with questions and pass judgement on the man..."Your father's arrived, mom!"...and wait up for her until she comes home.

I wonder, are adolescent children justified in taking an interest in the social life of their widowed parent? Should that parent be guided by their preferences, even when there is no serious involvement? How difficult it must be to find the balance between keeping the remaining family group secure and yet trying to move onward with a life for yourself.

Mary was also trying to survive financially and make her writing become a source of income instead of a hobby. At one point she got a note enclosed by a publishing house with one of her returned manuscripts.

"Mrs. Clark, your stories are light, slight and trite."

I thought that was an unnecessarily unkind way for a publishing house to reject her writing. Still, it's interesting to note how that particular criticism follows her to the present day. Do any of you agree? I've read a few of her books and I find them imaginative, tightly-plotted and quick-flowing. They are not deep, but there are all kinds of readers in the world, I think. Even those that love to read more thought-provoking stuff also enjoy their escapist literature. I guess that's why MHC can now cry over the opinions of her critics all the way to the bank!

Have the rest of you read many of her books?

Harriet

Oh, golly, here we are talking about such sorrow again (I may be forced to run out and buy another hot fudge sundae this morning to get over it!) I cannot keep ice cream in my house, I eat it and gain upteen pounds!

But LOU is so right when she said " "You do what you gotta do" a friend of her's said, and I guess that's how we all get through this life??????

We have all lost loved ones and we take one step at a time and then one day at a time to survive! I know too well.

"I can not imagine the depth of her grief" - HATS -do you think she expressed herself well during this period? Phyllis Greene, the mother of Bob Greene whose book "DUTY" we have discussed, wrote a book entitled "IT MUST HAVE BEEN MOONGLOW" - it is a wonderful book about losing your husband and surviving it. If you know of someone who has recently been widowed give them this book. My sister, who lost her husband last October, read it and immediately knew she had a friend in Phyllis Greene.

Thanks, Harriet, for that story of your friend who survived long enough for heart surgery! I know two family members who did not - they could have been saved had they lived about 10 years longer - isn't it miraculous what they can do for heart trouble these days?

Quick comments today (I'm trying so hard to get most of the yard cleanup, transplanting, mulching before it rains later this week) -

Can you believe this is a good (one of the best?) opening lines of a book: "I don't care what anyone says, my baby was a virgin when she met Errol Flynn?"

If you think that is a good opening line, do come discuss with us the book "ALL OVER BUT THE SHOUTIN" by Rick Bragg, that we are starting May lst. His opening line is "This is not an important book." - Does that capture your interest? He is a marvelous - wonderful writer - a Pulitizer Prize winner, a journalist for the New York Times.

How was your mother-in-law? Did you have a good one? Mine had a grand sense of humor, taught me a lot about cooking (she was one of the best I've ever known), but she was rather cold about children. Never picked up a grandbaby that I remember. I wanted a picture once of 4 generations (we had them at one time), and I had to put my baby in her lap - she showed no affection whatsoever! Strange, who can resist a baby!!!!

Must go - later, ella

WE were posting together, Harriet! I've read what you said and it is true to some extent I believe! (This one anyway - but we all differ there!) Still I believe that when a publishing company rejects stories or books they certainly should be critical - how else can you learn - but to be just sarcastic as you quoted, is unjust.

We should all try it sometime - which magazines still have short stories in them? Any?

I'll be back, Harriet, to comment on your questions - gotta ran.

Ella, I do think MHC writes well about the painful circumstances in her life. I can feel her pain through the pages.

I would love to read her book about George Washington. I think she wrote that it was her first novel.I enjoyed reading about her scripts for the show "Portraits of Patriots." By the time I finished reading her experiences, I wanted to set a goal to read about all of the presidents. (laugh)

I also enjoyed reading about her relationship with her mother-in-law. Mother-in-laws are always the bad people in the jokes people tell. They are always out to hurt the daughter-in-law. The myth is that mother-in-laws can not let go over their sons.

I had a wonderful relationship with my mother-in-law. She always took my side instead of my husband's side. When my mother died, she paid for my airplane ticket home. She was a lovely person.

Hi Harriet, I have not had the chance to read MHC's mysteries. After reading her memoir, I definitely want to read one of her mysteries.

Mother-in-laws! Mine said to me right after we were married--- You say anything you want to about your husband to me--- I'm the only person in the world whose opinion you won't change by your comments! Looking back on that, what wisdon, what a lady she was!!

Lou

Lots of memories for all of us in this little book

Yes Ella I got the book and read it half thru the first nite and really enjoyed it

I often thru my life have thot I could write a book just never did Should have gone with that slogan"just do it" I have kept journals all my life too and still like to buy these little journal books. I often start them butit never lasts very long just don't have the disiciplne I guess and that's why I haven't written my book yet Winnie

Hi, Hats. I haven't read a whole lot of MHC's books, but one that I enjoyed was ON THE STREET WHERE YOU LIVE. I also would love to read MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY about George and Martha Washington. I'm going to look for it the next time I go to the library.

I haven't had much experience with mother-in-laws. My husband's mother passed away before we ever met and by the time we were engaged my father-in-law had remarried. My step-mother-in-law and I got along fine.

I guess the tricky thing about being a daughter-in-law is balancing the complex feelings about "her" son and "my" husband. Also, I would think most of us try to value our mother-in-law for our husband's sake. In my case I never had to get into all of these tricky dynamics. Florence was a lovely woman. I respected my mother-in-law's marriage and she respected mine. I wish she could have lived longer than she did.

Winnie, when I was a child I loved to write. Sometimes I invested a lot of emotional energy in writing a story, but when I came back to it after a cooling down period, my story never seemed to reflect the emotions or "feel" that I had hoped. I agree that self-discipline is important but I also believe there's an X-factor in successful writing and MHC has that indefinable something that makes for an interesting flow and an attention-grabbing story in her novels.

I read a B&N review of KITCHEN PRIVILEGES by a literary critic. He complained that Clark should have devoted more time in her memoir toward explaining how she wrote such successful novels. Is it really possible to define something as elusive as a writing style in technical terms? Anyway that criticism made me smile because I've always figured that if you scratch a literary critic hard enough, you'll find an aspiring writer underneath his skin.

I just BET that critic hoped that Mary Higgins Clark would pass on a formula for writing best sellers! Don't we ALL?

Harriet

Harriet, my library had quite a few copies of Mount Vernon Love Story. I will pick up a copy at the end of the week.

I WILL TOO! It does sound good and I laughed when Pat, MHC's agent, said "with those wooden teeth, the only thing George ever gave Marth was splinters."

Hahahahaha

If you agree, let us finish this section (to page 157) by tomorrow and start our last section of the book on Thursday, April 17th.

We will get finished discussing the book early so that we may talk about some of MHC’s mysteries and, perhaps, take a look at one of her movies. And if the G.W. book is slim, we might take a crack at discussing it.

Is that all right with everyone?

Am quoting a few lines that I marked with a postit note as I thought they were clever.

(speaking of her little boy, Dave, she said) – “As skinny as one side of eleven when he was little…..” Have you ever heard of that expression? Hahahaaaaa

"It is not always how we act, but how we react that tells the story of our lives.” True, true!

Golly, do I remember the Dale Carnegie course “How to Win Friends and Influence People.” It was so popular and a couple of our friends took it, was it the very beginning of the self-help books? They are so prevalent today. Everywhere you look – in books, magazines, commercials, there is something for you to be better, look better, live better – endless tripe!!!!

I thought our author spent too much time writing about the experience with the course, did you? It was as if she wanted to fill in some pages.

later, eg

Sounds good to me, Ella! I just checked my computer for availability in my local library, and it looks like MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY is on the shelves. I'll try to get it today, in case that's the book of choice later on.

Harriet

Ella, I am with Harriet. You have some wonderful ideas about how to end this discussion. MHC appeared on The Today Show this morning. She looked wonderful. She Talked about her new book. She does a lot of research for her books.

Ooooh...I'm sorry I didn't get to see MHC on TV, Hats. I really would have been interested.

Harriet

Harriet, I did not know she was coming on until the last minute. I wanted to head for the computer, but I could not make it in time. Sorry. She appears on that show frequently. I think she likes Katie and Matt. (smile)

Will see if my library has the Mount Vernon book...I have read any number of MHC mysteries...I think I prefer her earlier ones to some of the very latest. But I also think it would take a lot to come up with something that is new, sounds differents etc. anna

I found MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY in the library yesterday. It's a slender, easy-to-read book and I'm almost finished with it already. I can't tell at all where Clark's research ends and her imagination begins, but it's charming, not salacious and done in good taste. My library categorizes it with fiction rather than biography.

After reading KITCHEN PRIVILEGES I thought Mary's dedication for George and Martha's love story was touching.

"In joyful memory of Warren and for Marilyn, Warren, David, Carol and Patty who are the best of both of us.

If I'm not mistaken, that book was written before her marriage to John Conheeney. So, with that dedication, she managed to embrace ALL of the beloved people in her life during the period that the book was in progress. Nice...

I never attended a Dale Carnegie course myself, but personally I wouild say it sounds too "cheery" to to swallow without a grain of salt. Years ago, I had a friend who attended an EST course. (Do I have that name right?) She told me that no one was allowed to leave the room or go to the bathroom while the course was in session. That was supposed to promote self-discipline and concentration? Since my bladder is not accustomed to reading any self improvement advice I was prompty turned off by the description of that course. I never tried it.

I hope a few of us decide to get MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY. I agree with Hats and Annafair that it would make for a pleasant interlude.

Harriet

OH, I MISSED SEEING MHC ON THE TODAY SHOW ALSO! - DARN!

HATS - WHAT DID THEY ASK HER? HOW OLD DOES SHE LOOK? (women always need to know? haha)

I just checked with my Library also and the book about G.Washington is under fiction - MHC says it is a novel. Anyway my library bought 96 copies of it; my branch has 6 and they are all out, but I reserved a copy and I am #1 on the list, so......I'll have it in no time.

THIS WILL BE FUN!!!!

It was a humorous story she told about Geroge III sending his American colonists a statute of himself and they melted it down to make bullets.

STATUES ARE IN THE NEWS! Everyone is comparing the "tearing-down" of Saddam Hussein to that of Lenin in 1989. I saw both of those incidents on TV and that is just amazing - I never get over the fact that we can sit comfortably in front of tv and see such things happening at the moment in such diverse places on the globe.

MHC reminisced about the FBI show on TV, anyone remember it? Does anybody listen to radio today?? Maybe NPR??? I turn on a favorite music station when I'm alone (which is seldom as my husband is retired) and I like to dance around and sing along while I'm working in the house.

WE'll finish up the book in the next few days and HATS AND ANNA HOPE YOU GET THE MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY so we can all discuss it together!

later, eg

Ella, I will have my copy by Saturday. MHC looks wonderful. She talked about her new book, The Second Time Around. I think that is the title. Anyway, she was inspired by the Enron scandal. So, she did a lot of research about pharmaceutical companies and coorporations.

Katie read a couple of her reviews about this new book. Both reviews sounded great to me. She seems to have a wonderful sense of humor. She is very relaxed. She just seems very ordinary, not uptight at all.

My MHC book is waiting for me at the Library and I shall pick it up tomorrow! My Library emails me when a reserved book is in, lovely library!

Meanwhile back to our Memoir – did you enjoy her recollections of being an ad salesman (saleswoman? – not in those days) for the company she was working for? It was amusing when “flushed with success” for one of her first accounts she announced that it was a product called PREPARATION H and the sales force were astonished that she would even think they could put an ad on the air – grim faces.

And she, and we, remember those quaint days of innocence. I remember when we didn’t even mention the word “cancer” aloud – it was whispered to an intimate acquaintance! Why was that? Do you remember it that way?

And she mentions “déjà vu” when she visited Cape Cod. Have you had that feeling at times? I have twice and the memories of those times are still with me; however, I think we are not meant to know all in this world.

MHC wonders if we inherit memories – I’ve just never thought of that. She reasons that if we inherit tendencies to asthma or a talent such as a good voice, then couldn’t we inherit memories?

What do you think?

In these chapters she relates some funny moments in her life – dognapping! Hahaha She brought home the wrong dog; there are been times in my life when I would have wished for a dognapper - would have paid a dognapper to take away one or two dogs, even though it would have broken my family's heart - but who was taking of the dogs; not the family, just the one who wished for a dognapper!

Later, eg

Ella and Harriet, I will pick up my book tonight or tomorrow.

Ella, I had forgotten that strange habit of refusing to name an illness in the 1960's to 1970's. So sad... my husband's stepmother refused to call her cancer by its name. Instead she referred to it as a "dirty" tumor. I believe she was embarrassed by her illness in addition to the stress of dealing with it. How strange that seems now.

I recently read an article...wish I remembered where... indicating the possibility that some sort of genetic memory may reside in our cells. There have been studies of people who had heart transplants and, after recovering, picked up some trait that had been unique to their donor.

A case was cited of a middle aged man who had always loved mostly classical music. After his transplant he developed an additional taste for rock music. It was a total surprise to him and his family, but he later learned that Rock had been an enthusiasm of his donor.

Maybe there ARE more things on heaven and earth than we can ever dream of. And yes, I have had feelings of deja vu in strange places.

Are we now on pp. 158 - 207 of KITCHEN PRIVILEGES?

Harriet

Harriet, that's fascinating! Genetic memory may reside in our cells, are you saying that we may have inherited these memories after all? Oh, I wish you could find that article - do you remember what it was in?

I'm going to Google and type in genetic memory and see what I find - meanwhile, yes, we are on the last section of MHC's memoir.

You remember, also, that cancer (other diseases?) was not spoken of in public, isn't it strange now to think about that? Why do you suppose that was? Well, of course, the AIDS disease was not discovered then, but, heavens, you didn't mention such things as gonorrhea or sexual diseases.

Although I remember my grandmother talking about a doctor in our town (scandalous) who had gotten syphilis, went insane and had to be instituted until his death. I had no idea then how one contacted the disease, I just knew from the way she talked about it the story was not to leave the house.

HATS - GOOD! There will be 3 of us talking about this mystery - and as she did research on George and Martha Washington we may learn something new.

Hi Ella and Harriet, I have my book. Talking about Mount Vernon Love Story, after MHC's memoir, will just put the icing on the cake. I think we will learn a lot of facts about George Washington. In the preface, MHC writes,

"All the events,dates, scenes and people are based on verified historical research."

I would like to learn more about genetic memory. It sounds very, very interesting. This is my first time hearing about genetic memory. It is a new concept for me.

HURRIEDLY TODAY (more later) - I found this last night and forgot to post it. There are many sites on "genetic memory" but this seemed about the best. I can relate to smells! I have smelled certain flowers and they trigger a memory, but I know of no place where I've seen them.

Click here: Genetic memory

An interesting concept isn't it?

Ella, thanks for the link.

Oh, it would be “balm to my soul” to go to England and visit a friend for a week! A solid week like MHC managed to do every year or so, even with 5 children!! Have you ever done that?

I’ve visited for a few days with my sisters but then we started to get on each other’s nerve and it was time to leave.

How does one visit for a whole week? Do you run around all the time, sit and talk all the time, who gets the meals, does the dishes? I don’t know how one visits for a week! I need to know that! The opportunity might come any day and how does one fill in the time???

I wanta go to England – Paris would be nice!!! Hahaha

Do you remember from the book that it took MHC three years to write this little book we are going to read – the MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY! As she began to write more books, certainly she would have to be faster at it? Or is that the norm? How could she support her children if it took her 3 years to write each book????

MHC asks good questions – what kind of book do you grab when you are going on a trip? When you are tired and want to curl up with a good book and forget the world?

Isn’t that a lovely picture of our author on page 181 – the one in which she is looking at her first book written in 1969! She’s thin, she’s lovely and she’s an author!!!

And she is still WRITING IN HER DIARY!!! DID YOU NOTICE THAT!!!! WHERE DOES SHE STORE ALL THESE DIARIES THAT SHE HAS WRITTEN THROUGH THE YEARS!!!

Later, eg

And see if they have the book about Washington..I would love to discuss it..Will also check out the genetic memory...and I would not be surprised to find it is real. I have been places that were new to me but felt I had been there before. Even had dreams about places that were new to me and I KNEW I had been there sometime...always something to challenge our view point.

While I havent kept a diary a dear 94 year old lady in my poetry and watercolor class has kept a diary since she was a little girl in Scotland. She often uses the diary as reference for her poetry which is so wonderful...gotta go and get to sleep ..God Bless all , anna

I rechecked our magazines at home for that article. My husband subscribes to the science magazine Discover, but we don't keep all the magazines indefinitely. To tell you the truth, I wish we got rid of MORE of them. I often feel that our home flows over with too many magazines. My husband always has just one or two more articles to read in each one and lots seem to stay indefinitely. Whatta pileup!

Gosh, I might even have seen that article on genetic memory in the waiting room of a doctor's office or in the supermarket. Sometimes I park myself in front of the supermarket's magazine section and take a reading break from groceries. I wish I could find it. Anyway, your link is great, Ella. Thank you

About visiting with friends for a week or so, we have some dear friends who live in Montana. When they hosted us we all spent a few days visiting their local attractions. Every place has locations that the residents take for granted, but they're fun and an eye-opener to an out-of-towner.

For instance we were taken for a drive through a Buffalo Preserve and saw large herds. There were even buffalo mommies hurrying their calves past our car. Imagine, we thought buffalo's were extinct! And the Preserve had roads paved into a terrain that looked like a throwback to the nineteenth century West...such fun! Actually, much of the west had off-highway roads with mountains on one side and a sheer drop of hundreds of feet on the other. We didn't know whether to gasp in admiration of the view or in fear of the dizzying drop on the side of the road. So different from our flat, sea-level NJ landscape.

We ate out a lot because so many days had these little outings, but not necessarily expensively. We shared dishes and talked a lot.

When they visited us we took the train into New York City to see a Broadway show. They loved the theater, but were surprisingly turned on by the train ride and the view, which we always thought of as blah. They also got knocked out by the taxi ride to the theater which took them through Broadway, the Great White Way, all lit up in its nighttime splendor. We looked at that ride differently after seeing it through their eyes.

We drove them to the Jersey Shore for a seafood dinner. They were accustomed to the availability of lobster tails in their area, but they wanted to eat a "real" lobster "with claws." Well, you get the idea. The way those westerners reacted to the salty sea air fragrance of our Atlantic coastline with the New York skyline silhouetted at dusk across the water made US see our own neighborhood through different eyes.

The biggest problem was that neither of the guys would ever concede when they were tired. Both were accustomed to napping during the day and neither would admit it. What can you do with macho guys in their seventies? Finally either I or the other wife would say we needed a break and all of us would retire for a nap.

Harriet

Hi Ella and Everyone, I remember growing up and relatives coming to visit from Ohio, Baltimore or Florida. My mother would always take them on a tour of the City of Brotherly Love. She loved historical sites. By the time they finished touring and shopping, they were ready to go home. I think they really enjoyed themselves.

ANNA - do get the book and join us!

Hi Harriet and HATS! I've got the book and have started reading it, we will enjoy discussing this - I had no idea that GW's mother was a hateful woman!!!

Am going out of town tomorrow, so will see all of you on Monday when we can start reading George Washington's life as written by Mary Higgins Clark many years ago! This was her first book with an awful title, and recently with a new title it has done very well.

Titles mean a lot apparently!! Well, especially if you not a well-known author.

See you Monday and HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE!

Happy Passover and Happy Easter to all!!

Harriet

ICEBOUND will come on tonight (Easter Sunday evening). I do not know which areas are included and which areas are not included.

THANKS for the advance notice, Hats!

I took part in the SN discussion on Dr. Jerri's book, ICEBOUND, more than a year ago and many participants had strong feelings about the lady. Were we on that together, Hats? You always add so much to any discussion.

I'm curious about how Dr. Jerri's story will be done on TV. I wonder, is it a version authorized and approved by the doctor? Or by her ex-husband? Such a factor would strongly influence the slant of the story, I would think.

I wonder what she's doing with herself, and most of all if she has succeeded in making contact with her children in the intervening time. I'll look forward to either taping or watching it tonight.

Hope Ella is able to read your message and tune in.

Harriet

On Monday night, April 21, PBS is airing an American Experience documentary on the racehorse Seabiscuit.

Ella led a discussion on the book about Seabiscuit.

Harriet

Thank You So Much for leting me know that Ice Bound was on TV tonight as I so much enjoyed it and would never have know about it if you had not posted. I watched Bob Hope's 100th and then Ice Bound Thank You So much as You have made my Easter so special.

With Much apprieciation I remain Your S/N sister, Ginger

AH Yes Seabiscuit I much watch also as I enjoyed our disscusion here, Thank You So Much, I have it marked on my list to watch. Thank You So much.

S/N sister Ginger

Hi Harriet and Ginger,

I taped Icebound. I will look at it this afternoon or evening. Harriet, I am glad you mentioned Seabiscuit. I missed the discussion. I do not want to miss the documentary.

Ginger, I missed Bob Hope. I wanted to see it. For all those years, he brought so much happiness to the soldiers. He is a special person.

Hi everyone!

I didn't watch any TV yesterday, but did see the documentary on Seabiscuit is going to be on tonight and I want to watch that one. There is a movie coming out on the book this summer - that will be fun!

So HATS - you must tell us the answers to the questions that Harriet posed above! I was one of those that did not believe she was telling us the whole truth about her children and their father (which was the reason, if I recall correctly) why she went on that harrowing year's visit to the Pole.

Isn't it fun to be talking about discussions we have been in before - I loved SEABISCUIT. There was a lady there - a Barbara, I believe, from Australia that knew so much about thoroughbreds. I wonder if she is still posting anywhere.

She gave me the idea for a wonderful book to read about a woman in Australia who made a success farming in the outback and showed such courage. I'll have to look up the book again and maybe we could discuss it?

Meanwhile, which of you have read MHC's MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY?

What did you think of her style of writing? Was it a bit confusing to go from one period of history to another? If her chapters had been a bit longer in each period I would have enjoyed the book more, I think.

MHC makes this statement in her short preface: "All the events, dates, scenes and people are based on verified historical research."

I can believe events and dates, but scenes?

Where does a record exist as to the many scenes in this book? GW did not write an autobiography - who would have that was involved, for example, in the incidents at Ferry Farm?

Hi Ella and Harriet and All,

I remember feeling sorry for the doctor during the discussion of Icebound. I felt like her husband was totally unfair to her. I taped the movie. I am going to look at it tonight.

I am almost finished The Mount Vernon Story. I liked the way MHC went back and forth in time. I did not find it confusing. Ella, like you, I wondered where in the world did she get the background information. I did not think GW left that many letters behind. It is hard to believe that she did not fictionalize a lot of information.

MHC made GW's mother sound like a perfect ogre. I did not feel that one good word was said about her. I also came away feeling that GW had a very difficult time being a stepfather to Patsy's children. From the information in the book, Patsy did not want GW to discipline her children. He could only go so far and no further.

I have not looked in the back of the book. Maybe there is a bibliography telling about what papers and books she used for research.

I got the feeling that MHC might have fleshed out her opening scenes at Ferry Farm from fragments of letters that young George might have written to his brother, Lawrence, or to others of his friends. Do any of you feel, as I do, that MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY is essentially a work of FICTION loosely hung together by some research of original documents?

Actually, I enjoy such books a lot. I find I enjoy learning from them as long as I remember to accept the blocs of historical events carefully and to be VERY flexible about believing all the details. For instance I believe that young George had a cool relationship with his mother, but I feel that all the dialogue between them may be the probable literary inventions of MHC. It's an entertaining package though, our book; it's a slender historical aperitif.

I suspect that an admiring MHC throws an occasional "spin" in her writing. She doesn't mention that the young and untried George Washington was involved in a skirmish at Fort Necessity that virtually provoked the French and Indian War.

http://www.georgewashington.si.edu/life/chrono_military.html

I have read elsewhere that he was also a extremely upward mobile and ambitious colonial officer who would have preferred a commission in the British regulars during the 1750's. Our author DOES point out the many positive things that we can admire about this charismatic and brave man.

I want to talk about the TV presentation of ICEBOUND but I have to go back and watch it again. I fell asleep in my oh-so-comfy recliner during the show and I missed at least half of it. Luckily I was taping it at the time. Snooze...

The beginning didn't discuss Dr. Jerri's children at all. There was a brief scene where she and Big John talked about the escape-from-the-real-world tendencies of some who wintered over in Antarctica. When they discussed how hard it was to leave their families we got a close-up of Jerri's face with tightened lips. If there was more talk of children, I'm afraid I was napping.

I WISH I could stay awake better after 9pm. Is this impending senility?

Also, in her book Dr. Jerri discovered her breast lump shortly BEFORE the last plane out. In the TV show she discovers it well AFTER all final planes have departed for civilization. Would it have been too hard to explain to the TV audience why she decided to stay when she knew earlier that the possibility of cancer existed? An interesting discrepancy, no?

Hats, what did you think of the show?

Later, with more on both subjects.

Harriet

Edit: I was writing and didn't see your comments until I posted, Hats. Please forgive me if we covered some of the same points. Later...

I'M JUST FURIOUS WITH MYSELF! I FORGOT ALL ABOUT THE DOCUMENTARY LAST NIGHT ON PBS STARRING SEABISCUIT!! DARN! I was very tired and so I went to bed at about 9:00 a.m. and didn't give it another thought. My sister came over with a dessert (bless her heart!) - she lost her husband in October and has moved close to me in a senior citizens' complex and yesterday was her wedding anniversary. She wanted to somehow celebrate or remember and she came over - she's sweet and getting along okay, except, of course, the bad days!

Yes, yes, HARRIET - "Do any of you feel, as I do, that MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY is essentially a work of FICTION loosely hung together by some research of original documents?"

You said it so well!

However, in the link you provided yesterday I read this:

His officers write of their regret for the loss of “such an excellent Commander, such a sincere Friend, and so affable a Companion."

It was in quotes so I think we can determine that there remain correspondence concerning GW located somewhere - in libraries, etc. I wonder how many biographies have been written about our first president - I would imagine dozens!

And again in that same article:

"“I escaped unhurt, although death was leveling my companions on every side of me,” Washington writes his mother. A minister suggests that Providence had preserved Washington “in so signal a manner for some important service to his country.” At age 23, he becomes commander of all the Virginia troops"

He wrote his mother during the years!!! Obviously those letters have been retained.

Somewhere the book tells us that he loved his mother, but disliked her at the same time. That's possible, I think.

What qualities in his mother were the most despicable to you?

I'm trying desperately to keep up with Dante - both the Inferno and the book by Matthew Pearl and getting ready to lead the discussion "All Over but the Shoutin" - wow! Keeps me very busy on this computer, but I do enjoy it!

HATS - haven't I seen you in there? Are you managing? Hahaha

I'll be back later with more on the love story of GW and Patsy!

Ella, hahaha, we each saw just the same amount of the PBS Seabiscuit show. I did it again, for goodness sakes!

Somehow I fell asleep again, much to my frustration, almost the minute I settled into my recliner last night. Knowing myself, I also set the VCR. Now I have tapes of Seabiscuit AND Icebound waiting for their second viewing.

Mary Ball Washington constantly trivialized her son's accomplishments and ridiciuled his dreams. She was harsh and unloving. Yet I was sorry for her because she didn't seem to know any other way to relate to ANYONE.

If GW had been weaker, less determined to make his way, he could have been trampled down by such a mother. If she had succeeded in subjugating her son then I would have considered her truly despicable.

She was a fearful woman who filtered everything through her own needs and anxieties and had difficulty coping with her own life. Yet, all of her abuses were thrown at a son strong enough to stand and look beyond them. I thought George's mother finally comes across as pathetic.

Harriet

Oh, you too, Harriet! I didn't even think to tape it, just forgot all about it! Do they ever show the PBS documentaries again? That was such a good book.

All you said about GW's mother was true but I thought it - well, I was going to say amusing (but that's not the word), that GW paid so much attention (if we can believe MHC) to his mother's housekeeping, poor taste in furniture, and poor cooking! It's just something most boys wouldn't care that much about.

As a man, his thoughts often went to Mt. Vernon, and furnishings and fine china - he was fastidious in everything and loved luxury, didn't he? Perhaps that was a consequence of the sparse life his mother led.

And one thing that I just cannot believe at all (pg.20). GW is 13 years of age and he cups his sister's chin and says "God help the young men in a year or two. No, little one, she (mother) isn't really vexed. She just wants to get vexed about something, so beware."

Perhaps I've forgotten 13 year-old boys but I never knew one that mature!!!

Having given my copy of JOHN ADAMS away to a nephew, I cannot remind myself of all the qualities he had and did not have. I do remember that he was not well liked for his personality, but was admired for his brillance. We joked in that discussion that the Continental Congress probably sent him to France to get rid of him for awhile, they tired of him easily!! He was quarrelsome and talked far too long! Adams spent the war years in France and England getting loans for the colonies.

Enough for tonight - where's HATS AND ANNA?

Hmm, am confused. Are we still discussing Kitchen Privileges or are we discussing the Mt. Vernon one? Have to pick the latter up at the library if I remember tomorrow, they're holding it for me.

RUTH - we finished with the slim little book - KITCHEN PRIVILEGES - and decided to read MHC's first book, which has recently been published under the title "MOUNT VERNON LOVE STORY."

It is a novel about George Washington but is historically correct according to the author.

Hmm, I must have missed something as I never saw any discussion of the last pages. We mostly posted our childhood memories.

I am not finished the Icebound movie yet. I am at the part where Dr. Jerri is having all of her hair cut off. Really, that is pretty far into the movie. Still, there is no mention of her children and husband. It is clearly evident that she has personal reasons for being at the Pole, but the reasons are not mentioned yet. Probably, the children and husband will be mentioned very soon.

I really enjoyed read The Mount Vernon Love Story. I came away admiring GW. He did his very best to be a wonderful stepfather. At the same time, he cared deeply about his brother and wife. It was very sad when his brother died.

I thought it was interesting how GW overcame two horrible diseases, the bloody flux and smallpox. I did wonder why that house was not quarrantined. That night they had a dinner party.

Anyway, He was a strong man. He always seemed to have a pupose for which to live. His mother did not want him to join the navy, but he did not fall down in despair. I think he just refocused his ambitions.

Hello Ruth! Yes, you are right, we did skip a few of the last pages in the MHC book? Did you want to comment about them? Please do.

HATS! Hello and I'm so glad you enjoyed the little book about GW. It doesn't take long to read it, but there are a few things I didn't know about GW. Actually I have never read a biography of our first president.

First loves last forever, do you agree? I think George always loved Sally in a different way than Patsy, if we can believe the facts in this novel. Of course, MHC might have been attempting to spice up the book in some way - I must look up how many books have been written about good ole George!

It's late tonight and I'm rather tired - see you all later, Ella

Goodness, I wondered if MHC was trying to squelch a few flames rather than spicing things up between Sally and GW. Before reading this book I had always thought that Sally was the REAL love of GW's life. MHC writes that GW AND Sally exchanged an "unfathomable look" as she and her husband departed Mount Vernon after meeting his new bride. Did that mean that they both understood that the devotion he had always offered her would now be replaced by his devotion to Patsy instead? As much as he loved Patsy, giving up his secret feelings for Sally would leave a "lonely" spot in his life? The times were a-changin'...

The big surprise was the genuine devotion that MHC portrayed between George and Martha. I never knew that GW sent for Martha to come and visit during his campaigns. That's a real sign of love, don't you think? He missed her and she WANTED to come to him despite the hardships?

I think George W. was a man who valued appearances. He enjoyed a well-run attractive household and seemed to put a lot of care, according to MHC, into insuring that his home would present a handsome first appearance to his new bride.

Soon after their marriage George and Martha began construction on a new wing for the house that would include a dining room/ballroom. They wanted to be able to entertain. I'm sure that that was one of the ways that a politically-minded man of his era would keep in touch with the movers and shakers of his generation. The century may have lacked phones, faxes and computers, but dancing and hosting of elegant gatherings offered a framework for diplomacy. Of course George's wife was an extremely competent and pleasant hostess.

How strange that Martha tended to shut GW out when little Patsy died. Why couldn't she see how much he loved here also? After all those years of marriage he surely reacted as if she were his "own" daughter.

Harriet

Harriet, I think GW loved Patsy like his own child too. He loved the boy too. GW knew that boys might need a little more discipline than girls. He tried to give him that strong, loving care. Patsy seemed very protective of her children. I do not feel that she ever totally trusted the upbringing to GW.

Harriet, you mentioned Patsy coming to him during his campaign which brings a memory I have of going to Valley Forge some years ago (have you been there?).

Understand that I did no reading before I went but was just in the neighborhood - it was an opportune time to go and I was somewhat astonished to see, amidst the rough log cabins (they just had one displayed but the men built many during that long, hard winter) a very nice home which was the headquarters of Washington, his wife, servants, etc. We toured the home, it was quite comfortable, his servants kept him warm, cooked for him - in other words, while his troops were cold, hungry, ill-clothed, GW and Patsy were living comfortably.

It changed my whole attitude towards George!!!!!

Has anything in this book changed your impression of our first President?

I did look up in the catalog in our Library (I can do that from my computer, technology is truly amazing) for books on the subject of George Washington and there were 142 "general" books about him, and then there books on GW's anecdotes, contributions, correspondence, diaries, employees, estate, gardening, expeditions, farewell address, friends, headquarters, home and haunts, inauguration, influence, military, monuments, philosophy, political views, quotations, stories, will. Many books for juveniles, of course.

Endless!

MHC had no problem finding resources for her first book, the problem, no doubt, was finding time to write it!

Did you notice the "Diaries?" Had you ever known about them?

Was the story of the chopping down the cherry tree finally proved false?

HELLO HATS! I wondered also why Patsy did not trust GW more with her children, but he certainly had influence over her son, Jacky, and Patsy gave him credit for that.

Both were disappointed that children did not come from their marriage; it would have made such a difference, don't you think?

Here are a couple of links to Valley Forge:

Valley Forge

Valley Forge

I noticed that Benedict ARnold served at Valley Forge. Harold and I are considering discussing a biography of him sometime in the Fall. Hope you join us then.

Ella, I have not been to Valley Forge. I have been to Mount Vernon. I went there for a senior trip. It is a very, very beautiful home overlooking the Potomac. I can not remember all of the rooms. My memory is too foggy. For some reason, I remember the beautiful dining room and the outside view.

Ella, I would like to read a biography about Benedict Arnold.

I've never been to Valley Forge, Ella, but now I would like to visit there sometime soon. Thanks for those nice links. It wouldn't be a very long drive from New Jersey, I suspect.

In all wars, both past and present, generals have traditionally been housed extravagantly whenever the situation allowed. In the movie PATTON, we see General Patton housed in a palace with aides and servants to attend him. Eisenhower had extremely lavish quarters allocated to him during WW II whenever possible. The Germans tended to conscript the most impressive buildings for their top staff in WW II also. It seems to be one of the perks of the job in the military life. Of course, those same generals are also prepared to endure much worse conditions when necessary.

That was why I was impressed with Washington. HE sent for HIS wife when he had some decent housing. I never heard of any modern generals who sent for their wives to share their palatial residences in the rear lines. Did any of you? Seems to me that George was genuinely glad to see Martha, and Martha was willing to take on the risks of living in the rear lines to be with her George.

Did you notice that George had accepted responsibility for a relative of the Marquis de Lafayette as a part his family at the time he finished his second presidential term? Was it a son of Lafayette? That wasn't clear to me. There is frequent mention of "young Lafayette" and the implication that the Marquis himself was suffering difficulties and needed a refuge for his heir. Isn't it interesting that the Marquis de Lafayette turned to George Washington in a time of difficulty to ensure the safety of his family? They must have had a lot of mutual regard for each other. I didn't know that before MHC's book!

Oh my goodness...of course! The French Revolution was raging during the 1790's. I wonder what happened to Lafayette during that time? I'll come back later after I try some research and let you all know. I guess our GW was a real friend in a time of need!

Hats, I've visited Mount Vernon also. I thought the house and land around it was sooo beautiful. The thing I remember most was the sight of George's bedroom with his spectacles perched on the desk and his coat hanging on a hook on the wall. The sight of those personal items caught my imagination.

Harriet

I found a brief history of Lafayette which makes reference to his situation during the 1790's. He had been declared a traitor and was forced to flee France. Apparently the Marquis and GW remained firm friends.

http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/95sep/lafayette.html

Harriet

Thanks, Harriet, for that link, what an interesting young man - did you notice that he was only 20 years of age when he purchased a ship and came to America to help us with the war and that he served with distinction! Only 20 years old!!! Men must have matured at a younger age in those days.

I remember when we read JOHN ADAMS that he entered Harvard at the age of 13 - several others entered at an early age also. No doubt the curriculum was altogether different. They studied the classics and languages, usually Greek and Latin.

HATS AND HARRIET! As we are the only ones in the discussion and, speaking only for myself, I have nothing more to contribute to this discussion.

Would it be all right with the two of you if we left it open for a couple more days and then closed it?

However, if either of you have more to discuss, please do so and I'll be here until the lights go out!

Ella, that is fine with me. I really enjoyed the discussion. I liked discussing one book, and then, veering off into another one. It was like a surprise ending to the discussion.

Thanks to you and Harriet for all of the helpful links.

Ella, you have been wonderful, and endlessly inventive in leading this discussion. It's been the best fun with lovely side journies into nostalgic memories and American history.

Thank you to everyone who participated. Thank you, Hats.

THANK YOU, Ella.

Harriet

And I add additional thanks to all of you!!! It wasn't the best book - actually neither one of the books had much depth to them (perhaps her mysteries are better?) - but they were fun!

Come join in the book discussion of ALL OVER BUT THE SHOUTIN by Rick Bragg starting May lst. Bragg is a wonderful writer, a Pulitizer Prize winner and we will notice the difference between a book that is somewhat lacking in depth of character, imagery, scenes, etc. and one that is chock full!

Thanks again! It was fun!

Second Time Around.... is MHC's newest mystery. I just finished it this morning and I have to say it is very timely. The plot is based on a vacine that seemingly elimates cancer... Seems to me that she addresses timely issues in each of her books. IMHO they are great reads, but maybe hard to find discussion material in them. I enjoyed Kitchen Privileges as a read, just hard to discuss, not meaty enough. But none the less, it was great being with you all for at least a part of this discussion.

Lou

This discussion is now completed and will be archived.

Thanks to all who participated!