Last Escape: The Untold Story of Allied Prisoners Export

To commemorate the May 29th 2004 Dedication of the WW II Memorial on the Mall at Washington, DC you are invited to join our discussion of "The Last Escape: The Untold Story of Allied POWs in Europe" by Tony Rennell and John Nichol.

This is the comprehensive story told for the first time of the struggle for survival by the hundreds of thousands of allied POW’s held by Nazi Germany during the final months of the war. As the Nazi world collapsed around them the Nazi SS in desperation began to move their prisoners (American, Brits, and many other nationalities) deeper into Germany to prevent their liberation and preserve them as hostages to assure their own uncertain future. These moves were often death marches on foot in a severe winter with insufficient food and winter clothing. This is the story as told to the authors by survivors.

The Book is available from libraries or it can be purchased from most book stores or from Barnes and Noble on-line. Click Here.

Discussion Leader was: Harold

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This Board is now open for sign-up of participants. If the necessary 4 people comment to participate the discussion will begin May 1st and continue through the Month of May.

The Book is available at many libraries. At the San Antonio Public library its call number is 940.54724 NICHOL. I don't know for sure how this number might vary at other Libraries. It was not available at my small Seguin Libary. Also it was not in stock at the one large B&N San Antonio retail store.

The Book is of course available for order and quick delivery from B&N at the link given in the heading and certainly from other on-line book sellers.

I choose this title from the many nominees submitted on our WW II sugggestion board because it is a comprehensive account of the condition of the many Allied POW's held in Nazi Germany during the final months of the War. I considered this subject well connected to the scheduled dedication by the U.S. of a National WW II War Memorial on the Washington. D.C. Mall on May 29th.

So it is up to you to sign-up here now!

HAROLD, my Library DOES HAVE a copy of the book! I know I emailed you that they did not - but today they do!!! HAHAHAAAAaaaa

I must have typed it in wrong before; however, I can get the book and I will be here to discuss it if you get a quorum!

Sounds interesting!

I will order the book from Barnes and Noble today and will be here for the discussion. It promises to be a good time. Please scare up the rest of the participants needed, as I am buying the book. hahahah faith

Have just ordered it from our library and will get it next week.

But, we leave May 4th for an Elderhostel on the Grand Canyon/Hualapai Indian Nation and will not be home until May 16 or 17, so can't post during that period.

IT IS ALSO AT THE OKLAHOMA COUNTY LIBRARYS IN OKLAHOMA CITY

Thank you Faith and Ella for your announced participation. Faith, my copy of the book arrived from B&N yesterday. It seems easy enough to read. I plan to read it next week under one of the back yard shade trees.

And thank you also Seldon 958. You too will be welcome to join for the last half when you return from the trip.

That by my count gives us 2 1/2 committed toward the required four. How about you homestead? And also Colkot, Tiger Tom, Annafair, and& scrawler, we haven’t heard from you yet?

I would like to be a part of this. Don't know if I can get the book. I will join you May 1.

I am speechless literally ..returned from the week in NC and the beach wedding and have lost my voice..will see the doctor later today and see if this requires more than lemon and honey ..will check at the library today and see if it is available. I am particularly interested in this book since my brother in law's brother was a prisoner of war in Germany I believe and died there. I would ask him to tell me what he knew but he hasnt mentioned it for many years and is not well. I dont wish to intrude on his grief...for I know he is the last of his family and I dont want to stir up those sad memories. I will participate one way or the other. anna

yes i will as much as i can busy time here yard work and farm work ect. i had a uncle who was a pow of the germans. he always they treated him as fair as they could. most of the german who held him were drafted like him

Sounds like a wiener, Y'All. I'd like to join you when your discussion gets going. How do I find you?

Bluebird, Annafair, Hhomestead, and Two Shoe strings, you are welcome and on the list. The book is quite available for order from B&N and other booksellers as well as from most mid-size and larger libraries. Anna please say more about your family POW experience during the course of our discussion. And I am always available here on this board and by E-mail from a mouse click wherever my name appears in a post. See you all May 1st!

My husband and I will be looking forward to the discussion. Elizabeth

Elizabeth and Husband, how wonderful, I know Harold will be so pleased! I'm just butting in here (but did not want not to greet you!) to say did you all see yesterday's USA Today?? They had a wonderful huge cover article on the new WWII Memorial, it's quite good and very impressive:

You can see here one of the two theaters represented with the Washington Monument in the background, and here's how they are placed on the Mall:

There is also a Freedom Wall with one gold star for every 100 Americans killed in the war, 4,000 in all, do read this article it's very good: WWII Shrine is a reality

I think our commemorative read here is very exciting and I'm so proud of Harold for offering it, he's got some photos from that time also I hope he'll show and maybe you all will want to also, contact patwest1@winco.net, Pat, for help with them if you like?

My husband received his charter member card yesterday for the Memorial, I doubt he will get to see it in person but it looks lovely and, THANKS, GINNY, for the photos. I've seen images on TV and I'm sure we will see more of them next month as the Memorial is dedicated.

Yes, Elizabeth and husband you ae welcome. Any one else out there want to join also.

It now looks like this title has made its quorum. But of course others are still welcome.

There are many. Click Here for one I judge particularly comprehensive.

Hi Ginny, Wonderful to know we'll be bookclubbing together again. My husband Dave is an ex POW and he writes next. Elizabeth

This is Elizabeth's husband. My name is David J. Nagle. I was captured in Normandy during the invasion. I was a member of the 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment and spent most of my time at Stalag 3C which was on the Oder River which is near Kistereen, Germany. Near the end of the war I got out of the prison camp and found my way to Odessa Poland and eventually wound up in an U. S. Air Force Base in Pultova, Russia. From there I was taken to Cairo, Egypt and from there to the Azore Islands and eventually to Miami Florida Airforce Base.

DAVID, welcome to SeniorNet, what an incredible post, I can't imagine, I want to hear every word, you should write a book about that!

Elizabeth, unfortunately I am NOT going to be here past May 11 because I leave for my vacation but the BEAUTY of our discussions IS when I get back I won't miss a word of anybody's thoughts because they will always be HERE where we can read them, forever in Archive, and I look forward to it!

David, that just blows me away, I have a billion questions, amazing@! Do you feel like talking about it?

I'm not sure Harold wants us to begin now so we'll need to wait and see but I sure do have questions!!!! Like: what does it mean you "got out of" the prison camp, were you liberated or did you escape or were you taken? I can't imagine your experience.

Ella, what is a charter member card?

David It will be a pleasure to get to meet you here on this discussion board. You had quite a WW II experience. It will be interesting to hear more of your story and your take on some of the accounts given in the book.

I remember June 6, 1944 as the day I attended my first college level class. It was the usual required Freshman English, but no one gave much thought to that subject. We could hardly concentrate on any thing but the long awaited D-day that had finally arrived. I suspect on June 6th if you were not already on the beach you were prety close.

A few months later I went into the Navy and the following summer I had just arrived in the Philiphines when the A-bomb finally brought the war to an end. Again thank you for joining us here to commemorate the dedication of the Memorial.

I'll be glad to offer my presence but I was never in Europe and never have been after WWII. The Senior Net is such a jewel, I am sure you will hear from many of the survivors if they are Senior Netters. You are to be commended for this effort, Harold. Thank you.

Earl, good to have you with us. See you here May 1st.

Harold,

I am anxious to join your group. WWII has always held a fascination for me. Reading the postings, to me, it looks like some of the participants in the discussion (yourself included) will be at least as enlightening as the book.

I am not of the age to have participated in the war, but I remember (as a five-year-old) people dancing in the streets of Boston on V-J Day.

Looking foreward.

Best,

Rich

Harold, thank you for the link to the POW site...can you get that in the heading by May 1? It is so meaningful when there are faces connected with the names! It seems that this one was put together by several members of a former POW family. They were lamenting the fact that their dad was no longer with them to answer so many questions. They used the Internet to put together this site on Stalag I. Thousands of prisoners...nearly 8000 Americans were held with their father!

My book just arrived...I'm sure this will be a moving discussion. It is heartening that many were released at War's end...sad that so many never made it home. Am intrigued as to what the "untold story" will reveal...

Earl, I see you were in the Pacific Theater...where exactly? I've been thinking about the differences between being captured by the Japanese and the Germans. Were there many Japanese POW survivors? For some reason, I don't think so.

Rich, good, we look forward to getting to know you, hearing your memories of the war's end.

Super Sunday, everyone!

Rich 7, it will be interesting to hear your recollections as a five year old at the end of war celebration in Boston. Thank you for your interest.

When V-J day came I was at a Naval Base on Ulithi. I don't remember any particular celebration on V-J day there. My principal recollection of the war’s end was several weeks earlier when the first surrender offer was announced. I was on a Navy troop transport ship fantail in Talcoban harbor in the Philippines one evening watching the move "Saratoga Trunk" with Garry Cooper and Ingrid Bergman when suddenly the search lights on some hundred ships were tracing through the sky. The old salts yelled, "Air Raid." But then the announcement came over the ship's loud speakers that the surrender offer had been made. It was a year later before I saw the end of "Saratoga Trunk" back in San Antonio at a neighborhood theater.

(I just did a Google search on “Saratoga Trunk” to confirm that the female lead was indeed Ingrid Bergman. I find the web site shows the release date as Jan 1, 1946. Be that as it may, this movie was shown in the Philippines that night in August 1945.)

Joan I have a number of links that I want to make available to participants. By midweek I will ask Pat or Jane to make a links page that can be accessed by participants through a single link in the headings.

Harold my book from Barnes and Nobels (second hand hard copy 4.48) just arrived and is in excellent shape. I will begin reading this in the evening. I have very sharp memories of my friend and my husbands partner in a joint venture, who was in the ETO and had many stories to tell us. I will wait for the discussion to begin before relating his adventure. Faith

After Dave and I left the computer today, I lay down to take a nap but I kept thinking about VJ Day "My VJ Day" that is, and I want to share it. I was visiting in Ohio at the time, 19 and having lunch at a restaurant with my two grandmothers. (Sweet ladies.) While we were eating, someone rushed in and started shouting that the war was over--the Japanese had unconditionally surrendered. Pandominium broke loose and I started to cry. I cried and I cried and I cried. I could not be comforted. Finally not knowing what to do with me the grandmothers led me out into the noisy street and down the block to a movie theatre. We sat in the back while I cried and cried and cried as softly as I could and then after a while my tears dried up. My VJ day! Elizabeth

Just got back from the local library. Ordered the book, and their computer tells me that I will have it before the weekend. Perfect timing, not?

Like an earlier poster, I am going to have questions more than comments, because I did not live the experience of being in the war. However, I do consider myself a pretty good student of WWII.

Best, Rich

Anybody who has been a dues paying member since the January 1997 solicitation of members began is a Charter member. Amount was determined by your means!! Entire Memorial was built by PRIVATE money NO Government dollars were involved. It took them from 1993 until 1997 when Congress gave the OK to begin building

Rich7 I wish I were in Boston with you on VE or VJ day but on VE day I was in Germany a 22 year wanting nothing but to get back to Mass. and out of uniform. Left from Boston at age 18 and returned 4 years later feeling like I was 202 rather than 22.

Welcome sgthap to Books and Literature

You will be getting a Wecome letter
Please watch for it.
Ginger

Rich, I think you will find the book a good one and an easy read. Sgthap welcome to the discussion and particularly Welcome to Books. We hope you will join in many discussions in the future. And Hello Ginger. It is always nice to see you.

I read the preface of my copy of The Last Escape last evening and would you believe...I began crying. The the rest of the evening no matter what I did I could not get those years out of my mind. And I was also remembering the friends who came home and how they did not talk about these experiences to us, the wifes and girlfriends and other loved ones. And when they did it was with bravado and usually about the funny or ridiculous situations they found themselves in. Not the way this book will be able to recount the adventure.

I think it is great we are having this discussion now. In a few years our generation will have departed this earth and I want the next generation to remember. faith

Yes Faith there is much to cry over in this book. There is much to be proud of also. And in the end there is even the occasion for some happy tears.

Dear all, just reading some of the comments about this book made me realise that I really had found something that people could relate to. I was just a child during WW2, was evacuated like many children from London to the country but we only stayed from Sept'39 to Easter 1940. I was back in London during the blitz and the buzz bombs V1 and V2..and lived each day & night as best we could. My Dad was in the Army and Mum worked at an aircraft factory. My job was to get my schooling and take care of my younger brother. Mum refusedto go to any shelter, so we stayed in the flat at night. We dealt with rationing, queues, blackouts, unexploded bombs, general disruption of life. Our lifelines were the radio and newsprint. WW2/VEday for us ended on my birthday May 8, 1945. I was 14 years old. It was only during the last 25 or so years that my latehusband was willingto talk to our children about his experiences in Sachsenhausen. concentration camp..where the inmates were also marched out of the camp..with predictable results... Colkot

!

Colcot, I said that I'd have more questions than answers. Here I go.

Why didn't they keep you kids in the country? I thought the children were sent on trains out of London, Manchester, Leeds, and other big cities for the duration.

Why did you go back? Why were you ALLOWED to go back just when things were the nastiest in London?

Best, Rich

Colkot, it is great news to hear you will be with us in the discussion. The book was your nominee and I thank you for bringing it to us. Your WW II UK experience including your father's army story will be an interesting addition to the discussion. Were there members of your family or family friends who were POW's?

Your use of the word queue to mean a line (of people in waiting) is interesting. Though this word has been in American English dictionaries forever, it did not come into my vocabulary until 1984 when I got my first PC computer.

Again, thank you for suggesting "Last Escape" and for being a part of our discussion.

Rich, you asked about the evacuation..I have a younger brother who was 5 years old at the time, I was 8 1/2. The place was a very primitive village in Gloucester called Bream. We were not billeted together. I was not allowed to see him. But I spotted him briefly in the boys section atschool. He looked terrible, his hair was long and unkempt, he had bigsores on his knees and his clothes were worn and too small for him.I stole paper, an envelope and a stamp and wrote to my mother in London to tell her what was going on. My Mum was a lady(from mittleurope married to a Brit) with an iron will wrapped in a velvet glove...and she insisted that we were to come home with her right then and there. Too many people took in "vackies" for the money and treated us terribly. Harold, my dad, although he volunteered for the army in 1939--he was out of work at the time--never left England during his service in the Army. My uncle by marriage(to my dad's sister) lost his life in a Japanese POW camp. My late husband, a career Navy man was the one in Sachsenhausen.. we can talk about that when we discuss the book. Queue is a lovely word for scrabble.!! Colkot

Sorry I am late, but I woke up this morning to a bellowing South Texas thunderstorm that left my all-electric house with out electricity delaying both my breakfast and this opening post. But now I think the weather has sufficiently passed and the electricity seems stable and THE BOARD IS OPEN!

I suggest that each one of us begin with an introductory sign in post telling something of your connection to WW II. This might have been actual service in the military or as a civilian during the war, through a family experience as the child or grandchild, or simply through reading. Some of you have already made such a report in which case just sign in indicating your presence with any initial comment concerning the war and particularly the book and any POW issue during the war.

I was much impressed with our book, “The Last Escape,” mostly because I had not realized how serious and life threatening the POW situation in Nazi Germany during the last months of the War really was. Despite the fact that that during the 1970’s and 80’s I read many WW II history books and today have over 100 WW II hard cover WW II titles in my library, I was quite surprised how wrong my concept of POW life was. I pictured the allied POW’s life as tediously boring, but none-the-less safe with adequate plain food and a warm bed. There was even a positive side in the chance to catch-up with reading and of course the battlefield fighting and dying was in the hands of others. It was simply a matter of waiting out the War until its conclusion, victory or even otherwise.. Had anyone else arrived at this pre-Last Escape grossly incorrect concept of the POW experience? Were you surprised at the extent of the life threatening dangers facing the POW’s as the third Reich began its final collapse?

we had a one here in oklahoma also last a hail of a lot hail

We realize that some you are not reading "Last Escape". Even so your input comment on WW II and the POW issues raised from your personal or family experience are welcome. Also a Google search on a string such as WW II POW's yields many hits. I am expecting a link to be added to some of these in the heading.

Meanwhile you may access some interesting Web resources that I have temporally placed on my Texasnet Web Site. Click Here.

In particular I think you who are reading the Book will want to read the short biographical sketch of the British RAF Pilot, Sergeant, Dixie Deans. He was the elected POW Camp Leader featured in Chapter I of the book and the link gives additional information on him during the war and his post captivity life

Harold, and others reading

I was indeed surprised to learn about the brutal treatment of Allied prisoners in German prisoner of war camps. The author implies that America's feeling that those camps were humane came from comparison with the even worse horrors the Japanese inflicted on their captives.

The part about von Staufenburg's failed attempt at Hitler's life and the resultant purge, which gave Himmler's SS nominal control of the POW camps was ominous.

We have to keep the inane TV show "Hogan's Heroes" out of our minds while reading this.

Best, Rich

I read everything I can about WWII because I was an armorer in the ground crew of a P-47 fighter squadron. Arrived in England Apr 4, 1944 and then over to Normandy, Belgium Holland, supporting Patton's 3rd army most of the time and at an airfield outside of Munster, Germany when the war ended.

I, too was surprised to find how brutal the prisoners were treated near the end. We lost a lot of pilots and one who was MIA turned up as a prisoner who was just skin and bones.

I just couldn't get that interested in this book. It seemed to repititious. So I turned it back to the library after 200 or so pages.

I go right to the "940." section every time I go to the library and have 3 WWII books out from the library right now and they are much more interesting than the Last Escape.

Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List and Band of Brothers (produced for television by Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg).......I thought I'd list recent movies that I think of as the new kind of WWII reporting, so meticulously researched and without any artificial bravado. Even though I'm not old enough to share WWII memories/stories, I've always loved reading well researched books of history and, just recently, watching such incredibly produced movies about the major wars our country has lived through. I end up watching for signs of the era's culture (male and female roles, regional attitudes, popular music, etc.) and can't help thinking how all these differ from one war to the next. Things I've read about the war in Vietnam drift into my thinking as I read about POW camps in Germany.

No, I knew nothing, had read nothing about the forced marches of the American and British POWs in Germany as the Allies were approaching, but I am not that surprised at the shabby treatment before the marches. What continues to puzzle me is how dense we were and how slow we were to believe the numerous reports of atrocities in German prisons in general....even people with first-hand knowledge had difficulty getting newspapers to print what they had seen (before the end of the war). It was just a peculiar mindset at the time that I wish I could understand better. There is a hint at the beginning of this book (do others detect it?) about how the British military bumbled around in the same dense way when deciding how to handle the rescue of so many POWs (American and British) after the European ceasefire.

I'm looking forward to hearing the personal recollections of those who have given a preview of their tales to come. Battles, sure, but I'd also like to hear the stories of those who drove a desk or changed the oil in the trucks or budgeted next month's expenditures.

Great choice of book. Interesting structure and easy to read. The direct quotes keep it fresh and immediate.

Betty

In 1945 at the end of the war I was working on the base at Maxwell field in Montgomery Alabama. Hubby was a cadet. My child was home in California with a grandma.

He was asked to resign his cadet contract as they didn't want to continue this groups training so he did that and we moved to Denver in the fall. Eventually we moved up to Leadville and my husband did contract mining. He hired a young man named George who was about 6'2" and 125 lbs. He did not look as if he could put in a days work but Ed wanted to give him a chance. He told us his story one evening when he with his wife were at our house for dinner.

He was in an operation in France when he was caught behind German lines and taken prisoner with many others. He was placed in a prison north of the encounter, and stayed imprisoned for many months. There was little food and no warm clothing. .. When the War was over the Russians liberated (?) his camp. He said it was pretty brutal living in the camp but at least they were sort of warm and did get red cross extras intermittently still he had lost weight from his college weight of 165 to about 140. The Russians took these prisoners on a forced march of hundreds of miles. He said now they truly were starving and lots of the men had no boots and would get frozen feet. When they fell the Russians just left them. George suspected they shot some of them who fell.

When they got to the camp in Russia where they were then interred his weight was down to 90 lbs and he said he had stopped thinking. It was like living in a fog of half sleep and not much got thru to him. He said they finally were released and an American cargo plane flew them to Germany and an America hospital ship. Then home.

He told us much more that I don't remember well now. As I am reading the Last Escape I keep looking for clues to the "forced march" of so many prisoners that he was in. I think I will find a record of it in this book.

George put on lots of weight as but he had to eat a substantial amount about every two hours to get enough calories into him to gain. Just before we left to come back to California he had to return to a hospital in Denver for some stomach surgery and the last I heard from his wife, he was doing well and still gaining. They now had him on a full meal supplement (I think like Ensure) four times a day in between regular meals and at bedtime. He said most of his fellow prisoners had some difficulty getting back to a normal eating pattern after several years of starvation.

In 1943 when I was visiting my father in the Oakland area I saw many POW's (mostly Italian) who had been transported to USA and were working in San Francisco for the city as helpers on the garbage trucks, street sweepers, and other municipal laborer jobs. That is the only place I ever encountered POW's and I thought it strange to have Italian POW's on the West Coast ..

faith

Here's what happened at Stalag 3C near the end of the war. We were being moved out of the Stalag to go to a different location because of the threat of the Russians taking over. We were lined up three abreast and headed north toward Poland along the route of the Oder River which was frozen over. As we were being marched out of the prison camp Russian soldiers in vehicles riding on the ice on the river approached fireing at our column. All who were not killed or wounded rushed back into the Stalag and at that point the German guards disappeared.
Bill Clark, highest noncom in the camp, took charge. The Russians, less than a regiment, bypassed the camp, heading for Berlin. We were on our own. Two days passed; nothing was happening and we were without food. Nine other POW's and myself took off to go North and get to Poland. After a day of hiking we found an abandoned house and spent the night there in comfort. We continued walking north and arrived at Potsdam. As we walked into the main part of the city, Russian soldiers saw us and ran over to greet us, and we greeted them, until a Russian officer came by and chased the soldiers away and ordered us at gunpoint to go into a building where we found German prisoners. That night, I became ill and was transferred to a Russian hospital.

german pows were used in oklahoma during wheat harvast

Welcome Homestead, Rich, Seldom, Betty Gregory Faithr, and Elizabeth 77. Thank you for your initial messages. Betty it has been along while since we discussed together; was it the Mutiny On The Bounty discussion?

Rich you mentioned Heinrich Himmler who truly was Hitler’s triggerman. He played a major role in the end in executing the order to evacuate the POW camps rather than leave the prisoners for rescue by allied troops. He as did other Nazis saw the POW ‘s a bargaining chips in peace negotiations with the western allies.

Seldon you as an Air force armorer in France and Germany when the war ended you certainly had a front row seat for the finish. I agree there is an element of necessary repetition in the story of the book. Of course this is because of the similarity of the separate evacuations from the dozen principal camps over three different general paths- North Central and South. Though each was different so far as people were concern each was subject the same killing conditions- bitter cold, insufficient warm clothing, insufficient food, on foot transportation, exhaustion, etc.

Betty you to express surprise at the extreme distress and mal treatment experienced by allied POW’s in europe. Seldom also voiced this same position as did I. I think now it is true that the 1970’s 80’s WW II history writers simply ignored this ugly subject in favor of writing about the more colorful operations culminating in the V-E victory.

I think in fact I read more about the plight of the other principal refugee groups that were marching from the East to the West frantically trying to keep ahead of the Russian Army. In particular their were thousands of German civilian refuges from the Baltic states and Poland some of whose family had lived in the east for generations. As the Russian advance reached East Prussia, German Prussians joined this group. They faced much the same problems as the POW Columns and the same consequence and result. I remember reading of one group trying to escape from one of the north Baltic on a very over crowded Freighter that was torpedoed by a Russian Submarine with near 100% loss of life.

Elizabeth77 (I presume David) Your camp at Stalag IIIC is apparently mentioned by name only once in the Book . This is on page 239 giving a brief account of a Russian Tank firing on POWS leaving STLAG IIIC in Poland after the American POW’s were liberated and were leaving the camp. Many POW’s were killed and seven were wounded. The POW’s then returned to the camp

This account is in Chapter 9 entitled “Hostages of Stalin.” In this chapter the authors detail the plight of thousand American and British POW’s wandering around Poland after the Red Army ran out the Germans and the efforts of the Allied governments to negotiate their removal. Stalin demurred by delaying any mass pick-up of prisoners such as a direct Air evacuation. Instead the Russians insisted on a slow on-foot exodus south to the Russian Black Sea Port of Odessa. Stalin’s goal was to keep the POW’s as long as possible as hostages for Western recognition of the Communist satellite Governments being set up in Poland and the Balkan countries. Were you a part of this exodus from Odessa?

Faith that is an interesting story you tell about the condition of your friend George after his liberation. In the later chapters of the book the authors describe similar situations immediately after liberations. The POW’s were simply unable to eat much of the good food that was being offered them. Their stomachs had shrunk and more than just a few swallows would make them ill. Did George finally regain his normal weight? Did the experience have a long-term adverse affect on his health.

Homstead your comment on seeing Italian POW’s working on farms in Oklahoma confirms the report given in one of the links I entered in my post this morning. That web source noted the centering of POW Camps in the US in Missouri. It mentions several work areas in which they were frequently involved. It describes rather decent treatment including libraries and intramural type athletic participation- a life far better than that of the Allied POW in Germany.

Such interesting, informative posts! And we have David with us who can give us first-hand information. This is fantastic.

I was seven at war's end. My mother died in July, 1945 giving birth to my youngest brother - I ended up in a boarding school, where most of the other girls were fatherless. We never talked among ourselves about our losses. We didn't know what was going on in the rest of the world either. Later, the battle stories of war heros captured my attention, but not until now do I realize what the POWs went through.

Thinking of those who are prisoners today...remember the hostages in Iran during Jimmy Carter's predidency? Such a difference in the way POWs are regarded now and during WWII. Weren't you startled to read that these men were regarded as cowards? I suppose it was the sheer numbers of prisoners that makes their stories sound repetitious, Seldom. The same hardships...the dysentary, the starvation, freezing temperatures, lack of clothing...

Betty, were we dense about these conditions because we assumed the prisoners were covered by the Geneva Convention? The bumbling you mention underlines the lack of information the powers-that-be had of the where-abouts of the prisoners - winning the war was higher on their agenda than the prisoners. I was also shocked at how little support the Red Cross received, after attempting to inform the Home Offices of the plight of the prisoners. So much has changed since this war, it's important to understand what things were like back then...

Faith, a wonderful story you tell about George. He was able to put the weight back on, but don't you wonder about his mental state forever after? So many of these Vets seem to have returned home with very little counseling...couldn't even tell their families about what they had experienced. Were they really able to leave these memories behind, or worse, keep them bottled up and get on with rebuilding their lives? David, I hope you can help us with some of these questions before the discussion is over. What was it like when you returned home?

I'm nearly up to page 200 (where Seldom left off) ...and sense that the Russian Allies the POWs are counting on will not turn out to be the great liberators they'd hoped. David, your stories are so important!

ps. Faith - there's nothing like the Italian restaurants in San Fran....

homestead - much better to be an American POW, huh? I remember reading that one of the rules of the Geneva Convention was (is?) that prisoners are put to work. Why is that? Exercise?

Really looking forward to this discussion!

I see the Geneva Convention regarding POW’s was revised in 1949 Click Here. There was a later revision covering Civilian Populations.

Regarding the rules relative to POW’s it appears to me after a quick scan reading that only enlisted personnel can be forced to work in non war industries that are defined in the document. Agriculture is included in the definition as a non-war industry. Non-Commission officers it appears can only be assigned supervisory tasks. Officers it appears are still exempt or at any rate exempt from everything except tasks befitting their high class. Doctors, Dentists and other professionals apparently can be assigned the work of their profession necessary for the POW.s .

Questions: Today should the United Nations replace the Red Cross as the protector of POW’s held by a belligerent nation? Do you recognize any problem that would make the UN unacceptable in that role?

Harold we have many belligerent nations who are members of the UN. If we place the UN as supervisors of the POW's in any war then it would have to be Neutral nations to that conflict only on the committee. I think that would work better than the Red Cross though the RC did a pretty good job in WW11. Better at helping POW's than they were at certain other requested tasks during that conflict. I am referring to some cadets wives and my own experience with RC during WW11,

Joan my friend George and wife Betty disappeared as so many acquaintances do when we moved to California. Last I heard after they went to Denver for his surgery he was getting along well and gaining. Yes, he showed many signs of psychological problems. The worse one was his sense of guilt re: his compliance in captivity. He was always saying things like, "I wish I had a chance to stick a bayonet in one of those damn Russians. They stuck us in the buttocks to make us march when we were in a fog from starvation and suffering hypothermia too. The Germans at least seemed to share their food with us. Not these **(7@^ " and other worse things. He swore something awful and I was not use to that. My husband ask him not to swear in front of the wives. One time shortly after Betty had her baby he started walking in a blizzard (mountains in Colorado above Leadville) and Betty called and said he went berserk on her. Ed and another fellow got the car going and drove till they found him. He had managed about 20 miles in 15 below zero weather,wind and snow. He walked that in about 6 hours and when they found him they gave him a cup of hot coffee and he got all hysterical and My husband took him the rest of the way down to Leadville to the hospital and called our M.D.

This happened to him again and it was just after that they went to Denver and put him in a VA hospital near there. This was 1947 by now and he had been home since late 45 or early 46 as I remember. I turned to the middle of the book and saw pictures of men who looked like he must have at 90 lbs. Skeletal. I wish I knew if he ever recovered. I liked he and Betty very much and have often thought of them. I wish I remembered more of the details of where he was picked up by th e Russians for the March to their prison.

I am having a hard time reading this book. I knew Georges story so I had an idea of the treatment of the POW's by Russian liberators but he always seemed sympathetic to the German guards as they evidently treated them as well as they expected. In his mind anyway. Now I am getting a picture of several nations that were not very concerned with their prisoners of war and were very bumbling in setting up a standard plan of how to extract them from prison on the fall of Germany. faith

Seldom! Quick, go back to the library and retrieve the book! You took it back just before the "repetitious" stories of the forced marches came to the attention of the high command. Check page 200 - Ike wants to order troops to go in and free the hostages...ferry them out if necessary. Patton's impetuous actions calls the plan to a halt, but at least the prisoners are now on the radar screen.

Field Marshal Alexander put forth a plan in favor of mounting a "propaganda campaign to warn the enemy that in event of molestation of POW, all personnel involved will be held to account as war criminals." That statement resonated when I read of the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners by US soldiers. I understand these are all allegations at this point, but think that if substantiated our boys are war criminals.

Harold, an interesting question on the UN/Red Cross. I don't have an answer....not clear about the role of the International Red Cross during WWII and now. From the account in Last Escape, the Red Cross seems to be in a beggar's position, trying to get funds, vehicles, fuel from the Allies to take the RC workers to the prisoners. For numerous reasons they are refused. Not sure how much better the slow-moving UN would be at the same job.

Faith, we were posting together. Thank you for expanding on George's story. It supports my feelings that it would be hard to forget such an experience - if not impossible. Was there counselling available to the released POWs. They all would have needed it!

Interesting that George was sympathetic to his German guards. Do you think it was because of the comparison between the treatment he received from the Russians that made the Germans look good?

It's too late to retrieve the book from the library. We leave tuesday for an Elderhostel in Peach Springs, AZ on the Grand Canyon and the Hulapai Indian Nation.

On Saturday I discovered a great book about WWII; Infantry Soldier - Holding the Line at the Battle of the Bulge by George W. Neill call number 940.5421 N411.

I was gripped by the story, and finished it today, because it told what happened to the bulk of ASTPers (Army Specialized Training Program) which sent some 140,000 enlisted men who passed a test to Colleges. I passed the test at Shephard Field, TX in April 1943. When the acceptance papers came to Shephard Field I was in Armament school May, June, July at Buckley Field outside of Denver CO. By the time my papers reached Buckley Field I already had one month at Dale Mabry Field Tallahassee, Fl and four months at Perry Field, Perry, FL.

Papers finally caught up with me at Congeree Field Columbia, SC in Jan 1944. By then we were scheduled to leave for a port of embarkation for overseas duty and I rejected the offer.

LUCKY BREAK! Turns out the ASTP was suddenly aborted and most of them wound up in the infranty in Europe in the fall of 1944. The book is about their apawling life and causualty rate on the front line during the 44-45 winter. Top brass agreed they made very good soldiers.

If your library has it--read it.

This was my usual work day as a volunteer Docent interpreting the Amerindian exhibits at the Institute of Texan Cultures. It turned out quite unexpectedly to be a special day because my Mescalero Apache friend and sometime work associate, Crow was there also. Crow and I work together real well; I outline the history and Crow provides the color. Better put he provides the culture and the visitors love it.

I have known Crow now for about three years, and over this time we have had maybe 30 or 40 sessions working as a team. Crow is very much Indian in appearance and spirit though he has lived in San Antonio for many years and has raised a family here. I have know that he had left the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico in his late teen years and that he had served with the Marine corps with several tours in Viet Nam in the 1960’s. What I did not know until today is that for about three weeks in 1968 he had been a prisoner in the hands of the Viet Cong. During this time he and eleven other men from his unit were repeatedly threatened with pistols pointed to their head. Fortunately Crow was rescued in a special operation by a Green Beret Unit that involved a firefight in which 5 of the dozen Americans were killed. Crow and seven other prisoners survived.

Today I know Crow from all appearances as a particularly well-balanced mature individual. I know of no one I would more want on my side in a crisis situation. Yet I am sure he was not eager to resurrect the details of his 1968 experience, and I did not, and will not pump him for more details. For pictures of Crow and a brief mini tour of the ITC Click Here

Apparently I was "out" for a couple days. When I awoke an English speaking Russian doctor asked me if I would mind helping with some of the English speaking patients. I replied to him, "No. I've got to get with my buddies, and his response was, "They're gone." and would say no more. In the hospital I performed nursing and care in feeding and washing and doing whatever I could to help the wounded American and British who were there. They were all airmen; one Captain, JOhn Ernst from Washington State lost a leg, there was a paratrooper from upstate New York who had both arms in casts. I requested the Russians to bring all the English speaking troops into my ward--about 20 or 22 altogether. I also had a couple of Russian patients. There was a Russian nurse who had a desk down the hall who could have passed for a Hollywood starlet but she was all business. The hospital staff mostly left us alone but came in for changing bandages, etc. The patients received a small ration of vodka and once in order to thank me put their rations together and insisted that I drink it which knocked me out for half a day. I was deeply impressed by the cheerful outlook maintained by many of these badly wounded men. It provided a lesson for my own life values. After several weeks I was informed my patients and I were going to be sent to Poland on the newly repaired railroad line.

The Red Cross did provide a good portion of our diet. The parcels were in cardboard boxes which included jams, coffee, meat spreads, meats, dense bread; a package of cigarettes was included, most times Lucky Strikes. The first time the group I was with received parcels we were elated about it and one of the fellows took his package, polished off the whole box and subsequently died from it. The delivery of packages was erratic but always very welcome as a change from potato soup. The parcels were shipped by rail to the prison camp; we were told many were taken off the trains before reaching us.

Faith, Joan and all, I think my question concerning the competence of the Red Cross in representing the interests of POW’s came out of a general observation from the book of the frequent inability of the Red Cross to deliver its food packages and supplies and otherwise effectively represent the interest of the POW’s. I think I remember the British House of Commons debating this question at one point in the book. The U.S. Congress seems not the have investigated it.

I admit I pulled the U.N. out of the air as a possible alternate. I think Faith is correct in pointing out that they might not be a neutral party. Quite likely to the contrary they are likely to even be a party to the hostilities. In the end I suppose The Red Cross/Red Crescent is the default option. Has anyone another alternate to suggest?

Joan thanks for bring up the attitude of the German guards toward the allied POW’s. I think we should discuss not only the attitude of the German Guards but also the attitude of German Civilians.

In the early part of the Book (first 100 pages) I can’t think of any incidence where a German Guard really helped a POW. Were their some that I missed? Or were they too afraid of their officers to allow the charity motive to register? Later toward the final collapse I do remember incidence not only of guards, but also officers and even high Nazi bureaucrats offering help. Their motive at that time of Course was not charity, but their own future. This was after the allies were making it clear that individuals at all levels would be held responsible for their role no matter how great or small’

Regarding German Civilians I do remember incidences early in the book of German Civilian offering food or other help. This was motivated by charity. Likewise there were incidences of threats of violence by German Civilians arising out of the heavy loss of life and property from the bombing raids. Later extreme poverty made charitable aid less frequent

And Elizabeth I have the idea from the reading that individual Russian Officers and Men could get along very well with the Western Personnel. It was only when a particular communist goal intervened that friction resulted. Hence you and other American and British POW”S were held effectively as prisoners to enforce U.S. and British recognition of the Communist Satellite governments in Eastern Europe. While you were in the Potsdam Hospital did you realize the Russian motive?

Seldom do enjoy your trip the the grand Canyon and the Indian Reservation. I spent Xmas at my brother’s in Northern New Mexico and we made four visits to the Taos Pueblo to witness some of their Xmas Celebration events. Enjoy and do come back and rejoin us when you return. We want to hear of your trip!

I haven't contributed for the last couple days, because I'm struck dumb by the stories I'm reading here. They're every bit as poignant as those in the book.

Russian army treatment of other Russians whom they liberated from German camps is surprising. They apparently felt that anyone who allowed himself to be captured was "an enemy of the state," and should be treated like any other enemy. They "liberated" them, then put them into Soviet work camps. Grim.

"Private Popov, we have good news and bad news for you. Which do you want to hear first?"

I've always been confused by reference to the "rules" of war. In some cases a combatant,like Germany, would conform somewhat to the Geneva convention and comply with Red Cross requests, while at the same time send V1 and V2 rockets into London, indescriminately killing innocent civilians. The U.S. treated their German and Italian prisoners well, but carpet-bombed and destroyed the heavily populated and non-strategic city of Dresden.

Is the notion of "rules" of war a charade?

Rich

Rich, Our book tells us that when the Russian army liberated a POW camp the Russian POWS were immediately activated as a fighting unit and sent to participate in the siege of Berlin that was then beginning. Of course these people long POW’s on starvation diets and subject to the effects of wounds and sickness could hardly be effective soldiers.

The authors do not tell us more about the ultimate fate of these men but reading between the lines I suspect that if they played any role in the final Berlin operation it was as a Russian mine detection battalion. This was the method the Russians used to check an area for mines; they simply marched a battalion in close order formation across the suspected area. Apparently it was quite effective in clearing a path for armor and crack fighting units.

How do each of you feel about the Western Allies policy (Pursuant to the Yalta Agreement) returning all POW’s to their Country of origin with our regard to the individuals desire and the fact that in many cases the returnees faced imprisonment or execution?

what a thing to have happen to a pow to be SAVED by the russians

Dave mentioned that he was told he could not join his buddies who left the stalag with him because they were "gone." He suspects they were taken into Russia along with the German soldiers they were placed with. Two of them, he says would have contacted him after the war if they could have. We have a book, Soldiers of Misfortune: The Cold War Betrayal and Sacrifice of American POW's by Sanders, Sauter and Kirkwood, Avon Books 1992. The idea of a young American fighting his war and then finding himself in the Russian Gulags for the rest of his life is pretty heart-breaking. One page I scanned said that a man coming from Russia in 1965 said he had seen about 200 Americans working in a factory there in 1962.

Grim stories indeed, every bit as emotionally raw to read as those in the book!

I have been recuperating from surgery and slow to join this group but am very interested. I was in high school when WWII ended and remember it vividly and my husband was in the navy in the war in the Pacific.

Having just read a few pages of the book I have questions. The words "Stalag Luft" mean what in English? Prison camp?

And why didn't the Germans just abandon their prisoners instead of forcing these deathly marches, has that been asked and answered? It took German manpower to prod these sick and dying men on the march and I would have thought that manpower would have been put to better use.

We all know of the Japanese forced marches, i.e., Bataan, but little has been told of the Germans doing the same thing. I am amazed at what I am reading.

Girlfriends and others telling the Americans who were prisoners that they were cowards? Totally unbelievable!

An estimated 9 million POW's of various nationalities were being held in Germny in 1944!

Staggering statistics!

"Feeling they had let the side down by being captured in the first place, most POWs were reluctant to talk when they got home."

Not true of recent wars certainly! Everyone believes John McCain, and others similar, are true heros.

Why was it so different in WWII?

And that just completes my reading of the Preface -

Someone said that men came home "not as God made them but as war made them." They were all heros, whatever their fate.

Ella, stalag is short for stammlager, a camp or holding place for ranks other than officers, offizierlager (oflag) is a camp for officers. Stalag luft is a holding place for air force prisoners(p. xvi of the Preface) My German is a little rusty, but lager means to store or hold. I think that's where we get our English word "larder." Yes, that's also where we get the word "lager" used to describe a particular type of beer. Lager beer is "stored" in a cold chest or room as it ferments, supposedly giving the beer a cleaner, smoother taste. (I used to brew beer as a hobby.)

More than you wanted to know, right?

Rich

Not surprised to see how people have reacted to this book.. it's an eye-opener. I was married to a career Navy man, who fought in the September campaign in Poland, was captured and imprisoned in Radom, escaped and was caught in Slovakia & sent to Auschwitz. Arriving the day of the fall of Paris, he was there briefly and then was sent to Sachsenhausen (Germany). He was marched out of the camp in April 1945 in a similar way as the POW's. On VE day he ended up in a hospital malnourished and suffering from nicotine poisoning.. (no food just cigarettes on the march) He eventually went back to the Navy in England. via relatives in Paris..I have pictures of him in 1939 and 1945.. and can scan and attach them in another post. No- one wanted to know where he was and what happened to him. Also he kept his rank as a sub- lieutenant instead of being promoted.. Colkot

Ella it is really great to see you feeling a bit better. Thank you for the post. Rich has answered you question concerning the meaning of STALAG and Luft. Not knowing German, I did not know the answer either.. Thank you Rich, we needed that, as I do not remember those definitions in the book.

I can answer your question concerning Russia’s motive for holding Western POW’s. The answer comes in the later chapters of the book. Stalin simply wanted them as hostages to obtain U.S and British recognition of the Communist Satellite governments it was setting up in the Baltic and Balkan countries liberated by it. The authors of our book gloss over this cowardly exchange on the grounds that Britain was bankrupt and exhausted and the U.S. still had the pacific war to conclude.

It appears Russia lacked the nerve to actually hold Western POW’s in prison camps but it used every possible obstacle to delay their repatriation including making their exit port the Russian Black Sea Port of Odessa and requiring them as individuals to get to Odessa on the own (most often on foot). Russia repeatedly denied U.S. efforts to allow Air Craft to pick up POW’s. Only once did Russia allow such an air evacuation of POW’s and this was a blatant blackmail operation. As the U.S. transport aircraft were picking-up the allied POW’s from one particular camp, several hundred miles further east another plain was delivering ex-Russian Genera.Andrei Vasalov to Russian custody. Observers witnessing the delivery of Vaasalov heard the sounds of the firing squad that executed him before they departed.

Elizabeth, I suspect your book with its report of Western POW’s in the Russian Gulag in the 1960 might well have been correct. In any case we know it was many years before German POW’s returned home. I think it was 1956 that Hans Baur, Hitler’s pilot and several other high profile minorleague Nazis captured by the Russians when Berlin fell returned. As I remember it I think this was about the time ordinary German POW’s were being released.

ColKot was your husband then in the English post WW II Royal Navy? If so what were some of the ships he served on? Was he still active in 1982 for the Falklands recovery action? One of my favorite WW II reading areas has been the Atlantic and Mediterranean Naval war.

Harold, In an earlier post you asked how I feel about complying with the Yalta Agreement, and repatriating all POWs who came from Soviet states, considering the fact that they may be received in those countries as traitors.

Now I know that you are way ahead of me in the book, because I just got to that section.

If I were Roosevelt or Churchill, in the context of all the very difficult and heartbreaking decisions that they had to make during the war, that decision would be a no- brainer. As the book stated, if we began to hold back Soviet area prisoners after the war, it is likely that Stalin would hold back the repatriation of Allied prisoners.

As the leaders of our respective countries we asked American and British parents to give us their young men and women because there was a job that needed to be done.-Win the war. As leaders we owed it to these young people and their families to provide our fighting forces with the best resources with which to do that job. Once they accomplished their work, it was our responsibility to return these young men and women safely, and as quickly as possible to their families.

Falling short on that latter responsibility, in order to play "global social worker" would have been a breach of the sacred contract we made with our own people.

Rich

All of my patients, myself and one or two Americans were put into a box car with hay bales to put on the floor and a pot-bellied stove, our only heat--winter--Poland. We needed food, of course, and I was designated to get food at stops at whatever facilities were available. At the first stop I got out of the boxcar and went up to where food was being given but no one would pay attention to me; I couldn't make any headway. I went back to explain the situation and Captain Ernst said that I was not assertive enough and needed authority. With this he took his Captains bars, shined them and put them on my chest commissioning me on the spot. Following that and lowering the pitch of my voice and talking lowered, I was able to keep my charges fed and warm for the journey to Lodz, Poland.

The trip took several days and when we arrived things began to happen. Real hospital people took my charges to the Ritz Hotel and I, and an Air Force Sergeant picked up along the way, were taken to another very nice hotel. We were registered by a Russian officer who left after we had our room key. The room was very nice and we washed up and went to the restaurant, had a big meal with wine and went back to the room to have a good night's rest but when we got to the room it was occupied by a very well-dressed couple with luggage. We got nowhere with them so we went back to the front desk. The man who had registered us turned into a know nothing and understand nothing in spite of the fact that we had been converserd a few hours before. I kept getting hotter and louder with my new rank of Captain and the 45 caliber pistol that my Air Force buddy had. As we were doing this I noticed four men in very impressive clean uniforms of a type I did not recognize observing our dilemma. One came over to me and said in perfect English, "Are you men Americans?" I replied, "Yes, what are you?" He told us they were Air Force in search of downed Air Force Personnel. I told him my buddy was a gunner but I was a prisoner who was released by the Russians. He then told me not to speak to anyone. They took us to their rooms and told us they were not allowed to take back anyone who was not flight crew; that was when I joined the Air Force as a bomber pilot and spoke to no one. The next morning we went to the airport to meet with the Russian crew (Russians did not trust anyone in their airspace without a complimentary crew) and board a C-47. We proceeded to hop from one small field to another for three days loading up the plane with air crews, their belongings and bomb sights until there was no more room. During these visits we had dinner and music and some dancing. I am sorry to report that I got several tours to show me where they had tortured and mutilated Germans and even dragged a dead German around the landing field with a rope tied to a truck. We finally arrived at the American shuttle bomb base at Pultava, Russia where the landing was made on a runway where the snow was wing high. Here I spent two days being interrogated, debriefed and cleaned up with new clothes, showers, a real bunk to sleep on with sheets and blankets plus good food and beer, also the Americans I took care of in the Russian Hospital were there, looking better and feeling better.

David, thank you so much for your first-hand accounts! Incredible. The Russians seem to be inconsistant...but fairly restrained with the Allied prisoners...as if acting on orders. (David might argue with this!) Yet they were outright vicious with the Germans, worse with their own people. This is something I find most difficult to understand!

Elizabeth referred to Americans who were kept for years in work camps in Russia - into the 60's? If I ever heard about them, I have forgotten. Can you tell more? Is a gulag a Russian stalag? A camp for non-officers?

As I read the book, I'm amazed at the way the Germans folded as the Russians advanced. They seem to become almost irrelevant as the Russians emerge as the real threat. I suppose they were frightened? The German civilians were hostile (understandably) toward the enemy responsible for bombing their cities ( can we talk about Dresden?)...but by the end of the war they seem tired, frightened and defeated. Is that accurate? By the time the leaflets were dropped warning the Germans not to harm the Allied prisoners, the real threat seems to have passed.

Ella (good to have you back, Ella!) asks what the Germans had planned to do with those prisoners they were marching through Germany...do we know that? Did you notice that there were death camp marchers as well? From Auschwitz, I think it was? One answer seems to be their fear that the Russians - or Allies would arm them and have them fight against them if they left them behind. I'm surprised they didn't execute more prisoners..

Rich, the "rules of war" puzzle me too. They seem made to be broken the further down the chain of command. I'm still nervous today when our enemy holds our soldiers. A rule is not great protection.

The Russians are doing exactly what was feared the Germans would do - holding the prisoners as hostages. A very fine line between "hostage" and "prisoner" isn't it? Always a reason to hold them. An exchange for something. The Russians will hand back the prisoners for Poland - AND for their own nationals who are being held by the Allies. Harold, you mention that the authors "gloss" the trade, but what else could have been done at this time?

A wonderful discussion, everyone!

You asked about my husband..he had to re-join the Polish Navy under British command after he came out of the camp and was stationed in Scotland. He had to learn English.(Polish, German & Russian were the languages he spoke up until then) One of the destroyers he was on was the Garland and Judy Garland was the ship's "mother". He was serving at the same time as Prince Philip who was also a lieutenant.He was demobbed in 1947. After Yalta, when Poland was taken over by Communism. meant that he was unable to return to Poland. First of all he was a "wanted" man and secondly his father was the head (Komandor) of the Naval Dockyards in Gdynia and was imprisoned by the Regime. Many other Poles could not or chose not to return to their country. Colkot

Colkot, I noticed that a number of those prisoners in the book were able to speak German, but didn't note their nationality. (I assumed they were not Americans). Your husband was certainly multi-lingual. How did he EVER go back to war after the camp experience? How soon after the war did you meet? I'd be interested to know if he was willing to talk about his experiences or if he tried to put them behind him.

If you need help with the photos, resizing etc, you could email them to me and I'd be happy to upload them to SN for you.

Comments on the May 4th Posts.

Rich In message 72 you have given a good answer to my question regarding the Western Powers acceptance of the Yalta Agreement’s provision requiring the return of POW’s to their nation of origin without regard to the prisoner’s choice. The decision may have sacrificed righteous principals, but in the light of English exhaustion and bankruptcy and America’s need to conclude the Pacific War, it was certainly an understandable pragmatic one.

The need for the decision does not speak well for Stalin’s principals but this day he is generally judged Hitler’s equal so far as as evil disregard for human rights is concerned.

And Jane you too are right in noting that the ex-Russian General returned was a renegade under any code of Justice. He was a General in the Russian Army who once a POW switched sides and organized and commanded other Russians to fight for Germany against Russia. A British or American General who had done the same thing would have been subject to the same fate, but the fact is that no British or American General did the same thing because neither had any reason to join the Germans, but this Russian General and many other Russians did.

David your situation described in message 73 relative to the importance of asserting authority to obtain food appeared in several instances iIn the book. I remember one in particular. It involved and American POW from Chicago whose buddy was ill, starving, and near death. An opportunity came in the form of a number of large dairy cans of cream on a loading dock awaiting pick-up. Such an opportunity was too good to pass. The American simply marched up on the dock looking as if he had every right to be there, picked up a can, and marched off with it. The guards assumed he was under orders to pick up the can. He took it to his buddy who had a life saving meal on it. Of course the quick thinking POW from Chicago was momentarily under threat of execution when the German’s figured out what had happened but in the confusion of the day the matter past and as I remember this was a case where both the GI’s survived the War. I suppose the lesson both in the incident told in the book and your success wearing Captain’s bars, speak to the facts that few Nazi era Germans were accustomed to questioning authority. Gosh think of what you could have done with a couple of stars on your shoulders.

Colkot I will make further comment on the role of the Polish Navy during the War after I check a reference. One tf the several destroyers operating with the British Squadron with the Battle Ship King George V that sunk the Schornhorst off North Cape was Polish. I want to check its name. I think it was the Polish unit that scored a key torpedo hit that finally sunk Schornhorst. This may have been the only time in history that a destroyer-launched torpedo actually hit an enemy vessel

Faith, Elizabeth/Dave, and Colkot, You put a human face on the plight of POWs in the closing days of the war. Your contributions really enhance the reading of the book.

Joan, you mentioned that you were surprised at how the germans collapsed so quickly in the face of the Russian advance. It's not because they wanted to retreat. A point that Russian military leaders often brought up to their Western allies was that Germans fought the Russians fiercely for every small town, hamlet, and farmhouse while, on the western front, some towns surrendered with just a few shots fired. At this point, the Germans were fighting for a different cause. The new cause was to hold off the Russians as long as possible so that their families at home would come under the control of the British and Americans; a fate much preferred over occupation by Russian forces.

This was the sentiment of the rank and file German soldier and most of the generals, with the exception of the Waffen SS. Hitler had a different idea. He wanted to fight to the last, a Wagnerian Gotterdammerung, of an ending. In a last ditch effort to prevail or die, Hitler ordered the surprise Ardennes campaign, precipitating the Battle of the Bulge. His generals looked at that same campaign differently. They felt that, if the effort were successful, the West would sue for peace, and Germany could remain relatively intact, possibly even joining the Western Allies in driving the Russians back.

Rich

I think Rich is right in message 78. Beyond question the Germans were the most afraid of the Russians and they had good reason to fear them. In the West during the last months of the War it was not uncommon for GI’s and Tommies to enter a German town to find waving white flags and Bed sheets hung from second floor windows. I have not read of this happening in the east. The Germans really feared the wrath of the Russians far more that of the Western Allies.

Heinrich Himmler in particular had the idea that the Western Allies could be induced to continuing the War with Germany as an ally against Russia. Of course this was his last straw hope but he continued to hold to it until the very end. After Hitler’s suicide and after Donitz dismissed him from the new Government at Flensburg he traveled incognito through North Germany until he was recognized and arrested by the British. On arrest he demanded to be taken to Eisenhower still convinced that they could come to terms. The British immediately checked his body for cyanide capsules and when a Dentist found one anchored to one of his teeth Himmler realized it was the end and bit into it killing him instantly

Harold, Your story about Himmler demanding to be brought to Eisenhower after being captured, shows the arrogance of those criminals. I once read a biography of Herman Goering where it described his last days as a free man before he was arrested and convicted as a war criminal. He asked his aides whether it was better form to turn over his silver pistol, or his sword when Eisenhower shows up to accept his surrender.

Elizabeth/Dave, You got out of Russian occupied Poland by being taken out by someone who was allowed by the Russians to remove air corps personnel only. Do you know what happened to the non air corps people that he left behind?

Rich

Well my memory was wrong when it let me say that a Polish Destroyer participated in the North Cape Battle that ended in the Scharnhorst’s sinking. The non-British destroyer in the action was Norwegian not Polish as I had thought..

One of my book sources says that three Polish destroyers and six submarines escaped from their base (I guess the port of Danzig) as the Sept 1st invasion began. These and other Polish ships at sea served with the British throughout the War. There are several index references to actions in which Polish ships were involved

I am going to ask everyone participating here to digress for a moment from the book to view eight images of the WW II memorial on the mall that is now open to the public and whose dedication is scheduled Memorial Day weekend. Click Here for eight images of the Memorial prepared by the architect. Though these are large high resolution JPG images, they load on my slow dial up connection in about 2 minutes or less. I think through viewing these one is able to form a pretty good idea of how the memorial appears in relation to its surrounding structures principally the Washington and Lincoln Memorials.

After viewing the pictures please post your comments on the memorial. Do you judge it a worthy memorial to the memory of those we have been reading about in our book? Do you consider marble and granite arches and columned structures in the quiet of a park setting still to be a suitable format for a Memorial structure? Or would some other completely different format be more appropriate in today’s world? And what form would the different format take?

I think your judgment comments will be interesting to hear

while i might have done it some other way at least it is done and ABOUT TIME as we losing so many each day of our ww2 vets

homestead, did you read the recent news story of the 400 Vets who were making their way north from Alabama, I believe it was? As if to underscore the statistics, one of them passed away on the bus! I agree, there were many thoughts as to how best remember the sacrifice of World War II - educational bills, expanded medical benefits...and of course numerous submissions for the mall in DC on which there were memorials to all other wars EXCEPT this one! The arguments over a fitting memorial have gone on for years. I agree with you, the time is now...and of course, too late for so many.

I think the reaction to the agreed-upon memorial design depends on whether or not one participated in the war. I guess I'm more interested to hear from the WWII Vets who actually come to see it. SeniorNet has a number of veterans who plan to come to DC. Will be interested in their reactions. Mort is in town this weekend. I live in Arington, ten minutes from the Memorial - was over there a few weeks ago to see the Cherry Blossoms when the finishing touches were being added. I think it's stunning but will try to talk to hook up with Mort today and gauge his reaction.

I was intrigued the way the Russians were able to use the wording of the Yalta agreement for their own purposes, finding all the loopholes, twisting the meaning of the words. The business of returning prisoners - the routes, the transport - an example of this. (I'm still not clear about how or why Americans were held in Russia for so many years after the war.)

As heartlessly and harshly the German military treated war prisoners, one has to conclude that the Russians were worse! Executing scores of their own people who returned from captivity! I don't believe the Allied leaders at Yalta were able to comprehend the extent of the punishment the returned prisoners would receive. In so many instances, there must have been brother executing brother for little more than being unfortunate enough to have been captured by the enemy. Were the Russian people really that hard-hearted and thick-skinned?

I have a question about the warning issued to the German people AND Military against the maltreatment of Allied prisoners. How extensive were the post-war trials in prosecuting civilians for violation and the maltreatment of prisoners? Were they tried and convicted at all? Were the leaflets warning against maltreatment just empty threats without any punch? It is my recollection that ONLY the most grievous and high-ranking offenders were prosecuted, but don't really know that.

I just finished the book and although I had read many WWII books was surprised at the prisoner's treatment in Germany. It is strange that the Bataan Death March was so well documented but very little that I was aware of about the German prisoner's forced marches. It is particularly disturbing at this time because of the news of our treatment of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sally

Thank you Sally for joining the discussion. So you too were essentially unaware of the dangerous POW situation in Germany at the end of the War. So many of us were!

It is hard to understand why this did not get more attention at the time or later in the 1970's and 80's when so many historical interpretations were published. Do you suppose we were so imersed in the joy of the pending victory followed by the realized victory that we simply ignorred the nasty situation with the terrible hardship and sacrafice of the POW's?

Sally I was employed by the Army both in a hospital near my home and on air-force bases, from 43 to 45. I was following my husband who was in training. I heard lots of gossip about the war in the PX where I worked, but guess what...all about the Pacific Theater.

I was working also for about 3 months in General Dewitt Psychonurological Center for Army patients. We were on the west coast and got mostly Pacific theater survivors. These men were head and neck injuries plus what they still called shell-shocked. I learned to "hate" the Japanese leaders who started the war but I never learned to hate the people.But that was not the norm.

We had many Japanese families in the valley and one night some of our patients went over the wall and a couple of days later they blew up a series of barns and homes belonging to the Japanese families. These were second generation ad even third generation American families of Japanese decent. Still that hate that is generated in a war instills a revenge factor in the men who fight.

I think there are many soldiers who are not able to withstand the horrors of war without going a bit berserk themselves. Witness the horror of what the prison guards did in Iraq. Talk about a stain on the our country. Still I have read a lot of history and it seems that the consequences of men being able to fight and kill is that sometimes those feelings get out of hand and lack the proper moral control. Then you have these awful incidences in Germany, in Russia, in the Pacific Islands, in the Korean conflict, and yes to our horror in Iraq. That is why this book has me enthralled, I also knew little about the ETO except from that one friend who had been there. Faith

Harold, I looked at the pictures of the monument which you provided. I particularly liked the way that they showed the different views at different times of the day and different seasons of the year.

It's a most appropriate monument. It's placed between the Washington Monument and the Lincoln Memorial; monuments to two great men. What better place to pay tribute to the 16 million great American men and women who wore a uniform during the last world war. We're losing 1100 to 1600 of these patriots every day. Lets thank them while we can!

It's a memorable expression, in a memorable place. I look forward to visiting it as soon as I can.

Rich

Faith I understand their had been persecutions of German Americans during WW II. Even then the attacks against them seems to have been limited to certain places in the U.S. I never heard of any problems experienced by my large German American family in San Antonio TX at that time. Of course by that time they were 2nd and 3rd generation Americans. A number of young men went into the Army. My father was 4-F. I don’t know why, but what ever it was did not effect his longevity as he lived past his 90th birthday.

Also I cannot recall any WW II persecution of German American like was always the experience of our Japanese American after Pearl Harbor. They were even confined in what could be called Concentration Camps. Why do you suppose our Citizens of Japanese origin were view as traitors while German Americans were always accepted as loyal?

Please add your comments concerning the Memoria as pictured in the linked images. Click Here for the pictures.

Remember the questions are: Do you judge the monument a worthy memorial to the memory of those we have been reading about in our book? Do you consider marble and granite arches and columned structures in the quiet of a park setting still to be a suitable format for a Memorial structure? Or would some other completely different format be more appropriate in today’s world? And what form would the different format take?

Tomorrow I will make further comment on the memorial that is now open to the public.

Another tale little known -- we were made aware of the Japanese internment, but I didn't know until just recently that Germans had also been imprisoned in the south - don't remember where. However, they were Germans who hadn't as yet become citizens whereas most of the Japanese were US citizens.

Sally

Yes, I consider it a worthy memorial. Watched the interview on TV with Sen Dole -- he told how moved he was standing within the memorial and what it meant to him. I consider marble and granite arches and columned structures a suitable format. The Women In Military Services for America Memorial at the entrance to Arlington is also marble and granite. It is a building which contains information on all the women who have ever served their country in military service. I served in the Air Force during the Korean War and am a charter member of that memorial. I particularly like the Korean War Memorial.

Sally I see the Korean war Memorial is near the new WW II Memorial closer to the Lincoln Memorial and across the reflecting pond from the Viet Nam memorial. Click Here.

Ops, I must read with more attention. I first thought your message 93 was a reference to German American citizens being imprisoned. But I see now it refers to recent immigrants who were still German Nationals and as such had to be subject to investigation. I think many of these recent immigrants from Germany ended up in the US armed service fighting against Germany. Also the book in a later chapter mentions a German Army Guard at a POW camp voicing the Wish that he had stayed in Chicage and not returned to this homeland.

My reference to the Korean and Viet Nam Memorials leads me to ask the question: Why did the two later conflicts get National Memorials on the Washington Mall before the earlier WW II. I guess my answer to the question is that in WW II all segments of US society had shared in some form the hardship and sacrifice of the struggle. That is the entire social and economic infrastructure of the nation had been dedicated to fighting the War. When it ended as a nation our interests immediately switched to a return to the normal social and economic pursuits.. Everyone wanted to forget the war and its hardship and sacrifice that everyone had shared, not equally, but none-the-less to some extent.

In contrast during both the Korean and Viet Nam conflicts the social structure as a whole Nation was less affected. The normal “butter and egg” economy co-existed side-by-side with the War Economy. The hardship and sacrifice fell in each case on a relatively small group of Americans leaving the majority relatively unaffected. When these conflicts were over those who had served using newly expanded media resources were more eager to call attention to their service, hence the more prompt construction of National monuments relative to the later conflicts..

What do you think? Is this a valid reason and are there other explanations for the long delay in building a WW II National Monument?

I think "solid" memorials are perfect. To stand before a granite and marble statue or memorial of arches and engravings brings shivers of appreciation to the viewer and often tears of grief and remembrance just as we have at a grave site of a loved one.

In the first world war there was much more resentment and bigoted treatment of Germen both nationals and immigrants. My in laws were from Germany with two children born there and my mother in law the first natural born citizen they had in their family. She told me of the despair her father felt when he was treated badly. Her older brother became naturalized and joined the service and was gassed in France.

She spoke perfect German and my husband said she translated Hitlers speeches on the radio or newsreels to him as he was a freshman in high schooll in 1936 when America began really being afraid of Hitler.

I was a child at Tahoe City and we had some Italian families and the Il Duce called the sons back to serve as draftees in the Italian army even though these boys were born in America. Some of them went in 1938. I never saw any ill treatment of these families and the boys that chose to go back were not treated badly when they returned either.

Later when the war was in progress here on the west coast I never saw any ill treatment of German Americans but much of course of our large oriental population. I do not know and don't know anyone who knows for sure, why we accepted the German and Italian descendent's of immigrants and not the descendent's of Japanese immigrants. Unless it is the old old problem of a color line, a racial bigotry, rather than a political one. Faith

The following interpretative comment refers to the overview picture of the Memorial available from the Memorial Web Site- Click Here

This view is from 17th street across from the Washington Monument looking down the long reflecting pool toward the Lincoln Memorial. The WW II memorial is in the immediate foreground. It includes the oval pond and its surrounding structures. The area on the right including the arch and 27 or 28 columns is designated the Atlantic Plaza; the arch and columns on the left comprise the Pacific Plaza; in the center on the far side of the oval pond is the Field of Gold Stars. The Korean War and Viet Nam Memorials not included on this watercolor drawing should be visible near the end of the reflective pond on the left and right sides of the pond respectively.

On each of the columns in both the Atlantic and Pacific Plazas is carved the name of a State. The total number of columns are difficult to count from the pictures but their number is definitely greater than 50, probably 54 to 58 suggesting that columns are also provided to honor the territories such as Porto Rico the Virgin Islands and certainly Alaska and Hawaii then Territories, since made States. Also it would be appropriate to include a column for the District of Columbia and perhaps the Philippines, then a colony but now an independent nation. In any case from the drawings one is not able to find the names of all of the states and though I looked I could never find the Texas Column that I am sure is there somewhere.

The only detailed textual passages that I was able to read from the pictures are on the Atlantic Arch. I was impressed by the lack of laudatory text commemorating Generals so commonly carved in war memorials. . On the wall to the right of the Atlantic Arch is carved:

D-Day, June 6, 1944. You are about to embark upon a Great Crusade toward which we have strived these many months. The eyes of the World are upon you. I have full confidence in your courage, devotion to duty and skill in battle. We will accept nothing less than full victory. Dwight D. Eisenhower.

And on the wall to the left of the arch appears:

We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle our flag will be recognized throughout the World as a symbol of freedom on the one hand and as of overwhelming force on the other. George C Marshall (this signature is much obscured but I am quit sure it is Marshall).

Well! I suppose different people could interpret these messages in different ways, but in any case I see them as being intended to honor all who served. Count me definite among those who are happy that the Memorial is now a reality.

A couple of quotes taken from a story about the WWII Memorial that appeared in May's AARP Bulletin. The article tells of former PFC Paul Arsenault who at 78 years old, and carrying a portable oxygen tank was given a preview of the monument.

"In wonderment, Arsenault looks around at the memorial's elegant expanse of light grey granite. Its elements are arranged in a circle, 100 yards in diameter, located in a place of honor halfway between the Lincoln Memorial and Washington Monument.

He gazes at the victory arches marked "ATLANTIC" and "PACIFIC," at the giant soaring bronze eagles, the tall pillars with wreaths representing states and territories all connected by a sculptured bronze rope signifying the nation's unity in war.

"Oh," Paul Arsenault replies quietly, "this is going to be one great memorial."

During an hour's tour, his positive impression only deepens. His straightforward soldier's opinion may perhaps, lay to rest some of the doubts and raging controversies from the years it took to approve, plan, and build this tribute to America's World War II generation.

Arsenault: "This is a magnificent memorial and tribute to the servicemen and women of World War II. I hope all of us who are left, who served in the war, can come down and see it."

Rich

It looks awesome, as my kids would have said. And I'm glad they finally completed it before all the WW2 vets have gone.

There were a number of "celebrations" in 1995 for the end of WW2..one of my English girl friends and her husband (who had been in France) went to a big veteran's parade in London and then travelled to France and Holland and visited memorials over there.

At the time it seemed odd to us.. Colkot

Thank you Rich for the Review of the AARP article on the Memorial. I did not pick out the significance of the sculptured ropes connecting the columns and some of the other details given.

Calcot you raise a good point with your reference to other WW II memorials. I do not at this point remember any WW II memorial in my Hometown area around San Antonio TX. There is certainly a prominent Viet Nam War memorial there. I will check to see if there is a WW II monument that I have somehow missed? I will also check Austin and our Texas Capital Grounds that is full of monuments to other wars.

Is there a WW II Memorial in your hometown?

What do you make of the Attitude of Germans Civilians toward prisoners? What considerations motivated German Civilians to occasionally help prisoners? Did the motivation reason change as the War neared its Conclusion? What singly factor sometimes motivated German Civilians to hate allied POW’s and want to kill them?

In reading the details of the several withdrawals I note there were a number of early incidents where German civilians gave food to starving and exhausted POW”S marching through their town. There is even one incident of a civilian allowing a passing POW the luxury of a hot tub bath in his home. David did you ever have contacts with German Civilian. How about other Central Europeans?

Here in the US while I am sure that the attitude of American civilians was far from fraternization, I don’t recall any real hate exhibited. I think I envied the apparent sociable dinner being enjoyed by the German POW officers I witnessed through the window of a RR Dining car on the adjoining track, but my feeling was envy, not hate. Later in 1945 after the war was over I would see Japanese POW’s on work details. On the few occasions when I was close enough to talk with them, I even joked with them to the extent the language difference permitted.

Harold, you asked about WW2 memorials..I live in Chicago and theonly one I know of personally is at Maryhill Cemetery. It's an obelisk with the insignia of the Polish Army, Navy and AirForce and Polish Scouts. Each Memorial Day and All Saints there are special "celebrations" for those who have gone, by those who are still here. All the graves sport Polish and American flags and great care is taken to see that each grave has its memorial. When my children were younger, they took part as the Polish Scouts. I will go on Memorial weekend with my daughter who still lives here and my grandsons to visit their Dziadze's grave and meet all the people we know.(at least 3 generations)..It is a pleasure to see all the older vets who are still with us and their children and grandchildren and visit the sites of those who have gone. Fond memories..Colkot

Harold, I just got to the part in the book where the POWs come across the German guard who had lived in Chicago. He used to own a used-car lot there! That's funny. A little humor in a story that is, overall, very grim.

Yes we have a World War II monument in my town. That's pretty good considering the town population is only 15,000.

Rich

I see the combination of poor typing/poor spelling/poor proof reading struck again in my message #101. "Back To The Bool" Should of course have been "Back To The Book." The propensity toward typo errors comes from arthritis in my fingers. They are always stiff but fortunately not particularly painful.

Laurels for Chicago and Rich's Town of 15,000 that have WW II Memorials. San Antonio now approaching 2,000,000 population apparently either has none, or if there is a WW II memorial in San Antonio, it is not very well known. I asked my associates yesterday at the ITC and no one so far that I have asked knows of any.

A google search did yield one unexpected result as it seems we do have a WW II Museum, Click Here. They have a Web site available from a clickable on the page linked above, but they don't appear to the very active or to be offering much of a program.

I will do further research on this.

I have to tell you that my husband was always coming up with humorous anecdotes about his time in the camp, like the time when the Berlin Zoo was bombed and they had meat in their food! And I know that his life was saved by a German guard not once but several times (he did speak German so he was useful) Also he was a very skilful artisan and built beautiful scale models of ships. But what puzzled me for years was the respect shown him by his naval colleagues in London after the war. When we were married we were rented a brand new remodelled self-contained apartment.(To find something like that was a gift in itself) Our landlord was a retired Navy man who was at our wedding. Years later I found out that Kostek had saved his life in the camp. Colkot. P.S. If you want to find out about the Polish Naval Association (Polski Marynarzy Wojennej) and their archives there is an address in Earls Court London, which I will look for.

Click Here for a Canadian Polish Navy site. It includes an obituary published upon the death last year of a Polish Naval captain who had captained a Polish destroyer operating with the Royal Navy during WW II. There are also pictures of several WW II Polish destroyers. Colkot was "The Garland" (named after Judy Garland) the ships official name or was it perhaps a nickname with another official Polish Name?

Colkot, it seems a sense of humor (as much as can be mustered under the cirmcumstances) would be key to survival - in reading the book, the Brits seemed to have it all over the American prisoners in that department. A good number of them had been prisoners since the start of the war. I guess they had time to adapt to prison life? An American officer was impressed with the Brits who joined them at Mooseburg. "One of the most remarkable examples of high military morale I have ever seen." There's one account from a British prisoner in Mooseberg...he had been marching from camp to camp since 1942. He was particularly appalled at the morale of the Americans who had been in captivity for just a few months - "They were lying around unwashed and unshaven and seemed to be full of self-pity." David, did you meet any Brits in the camps?

Faith, I was interested to read that you worked with patients who were "shell-shocked" - were they mostly all soldiers injured in battle? Did you ever see patients who had no battle scars, but mental and physical damage from having been prisoners? It seems that their experience was vastly different from those who were injured in fighting...especially when they returned home with regards to treatment, psychological and medical as well as the glorious reception. Yet, there were so many hundreds of thousands of prisoners - all needing help...and deserving of thanks and glory for their sacrifice.

I guess I can understand the hatred, fear and suspicion directed at Japanese civilians here in the US...the reason = Pearl Harbor. I suppose it was racial prejudice in that they were easily identifiable as Asian, whereas the German Americans were more difficult to identify. My mother's family came from Germany in the late 1800's. They were quiet about it, never brought up the fact that they knew German - it wasn't until I was grown that I knew I had German blood. My uncle fought in WWII...but was sent to fight the Japanese. Can you imagine how hard it would have been for German Americans to go back and fight in the "Motherland"?

Harold, I think that the Germans hated the American POWs so much, particularly the Air Force bombers because of the destruction to their cities - the same as Americans hated those who destroyed our ships and killed our men in Pearl Harbor. Can we talk about Dresden some? I wonder what you Vets thought about that at the time. I'd like to understand why it was important to take the city and the civilians to the ground?

ps. Never did catch up with Mort - he should be home tonight. He was going to try to get to the WWII Memorial this weekend...it will be interesting to hear his impressions first-hand.

Joan...Oh do I identify with you!..My mother came from what became Czechoslovakia after WW1..as part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, she was German speaking although of Polish/Hungarian descent.She came to England in the 1920's as governess to a German speaking familyand of course eventually learned English. There were German books in thehouse and I naturally learned some of the language also. After 1939, we moved and then the books mysteriously disappeared. When we had tohave identity cards and ration books my mother was taken to get thesearticles with a friend(my dad was already in the army) and she was"Mrs Angela McAllister from the north of Scotland where they speak the Gaelic" in order to disguise her still foreign accent!! She was terrified of being interned and taken away from her family. There was such paranoia about anyone with a foreign accent at the time... I remember it well..Danke Schon...Colkot

One time trying to find a place to imprison me I was put in a British run prison camp. I believe it was near the Chec border. I was absolutely amazed at the amount of organization by the British there. They had a radio which they tuned into the British station every day, and different men would come around and give us a briefing on what was going on--not only about the war but everything of interest in the world. It was a revelation to see and hear the way the British prisoners told the Germans what to do--they all had received new uniforms, their food was nourishing and plentiful and they even got material to make costumes for their different plays.

I guess I'm not surprised about Dave's post noting that the Brits seemed to better adapt to the POW life. Some of British POW’s had been POW’s since 1939. The Book tells us that the first British POW was captured Sept 4 1939 the day after War was declared. Another was captured later in Sept 1939.

Also there were many more British POW's than Americans. This follows since England had been int the war more than 2 years longer than the U.S. The early years were the dark ones with many British POW capture by the end of April 1940 following the failure of the effort to defend Norway; Again in June 1940 though over 300,000 British troops were evacuated safely from France, the rear guard that made the evacuation of so many possible became POW's. Later in 1941 more Brits were captured in Greece and North Africa.

Joan as I have said before my paternal side of the family was 100 % German from an 1850’s Immigrant from Baden Click Here) , I my self never experienced any discrimination base on ethnicity possible because my German roots were never known. Arnold after all is a name with both English and German branches. I was surprised a few years ago when I subscribed to an Arnold Mailing list that 90% of the Arnolds who were active there were of English origin, not German.

While in high school and in the Navy, I did not promote my German half and I never recall any mention of it though I recall no conscious plan leading to my formulation of this policy At the time I suppose I was just much more impressed with the maternal Wells and Chalmers English Roots than the Arnold’s German ones. Also I know of no incidence in which members of my family or other local German-American families suffered discrimination for their ethnicity. Many German-Americans served in front lines in Europe fighting against their distant German Cousins. I was sent to the Pacific because when I completed training the European War was almost over while the Pacific War was yet to be won; my ethnicity had nothing to do with this posting.

Of course I am sure the experience I describe was based on long family residence on the U.S. and my language and appearance easily blending with contemporary 1940’s America. I understand that the situation would be different for newly arrived German immigrants whose Language and cultural blending would be less perfect.

Joan you are right that some Germans those who had lost their home and close family to American and British bombers would gladly kill POW ‘s if they had the chance. I am sure this did happen although I do not recall the book documenting any actual angry mob killings. It does mention some rather close calls in which angry mobs confronted the baled-out airman on landing leaving his future in doubt until military or police units arrived. Presumably parachuting German pilots shot down in England experienced the same uneasy moments when confronted by a band of English farmers armed with pitchforks.

The book tells of more instances in which German Civilians offered food and other aid to POW during the evacuations in the winter snows of 1944 – 45 than of threats from angry mobs. Of course at that time the cold, sick, and exhausted Prisoners were indeed a pitiful spectacle and from their appearance not much of a threat. The authors identify charity as the force motivating German civilians to occasional offer bits of food and other aid to passing columns of POW’s.. In the later stages the motivation changed from charity to consideration of the individual’s personal future. This was of course during the last months of the war after the allies had made clear that individuals would be held personally responsible for the safety of POW’s in their custody. Then even high SS officers were inclined to ignore the formal orders of Hitler and their commanders. Further exploration of this subject can be delayed until the last week of the discussion.

I urge everyone to at least browse the obituary of the LATE of the late Polish Destroyer Captain that I linked yesterday (Click Here). This man’s career was indeed outstanding including the receipt of the British DSO for his action during the 1942 Dieppe Commando raid during which he rescued Canadian Commandos. The article also tells more about Polish Naval operations during WW II which were an important contribution to keeping Britain in the War against Hitler.

ColKot I am still a bit confused about your husband’s service. Was he with what Navy (Polish or British?) during the War or a Polish prisoner in Germany? Was his navy service post War and with what navy?

Dave thank you on your comment on your meeting with British POW’S . Your report of their superb prisoner organization and ability to keep good morale sounds quite like what I would expect from the1940’s British wartime character. They were always capable and dedicated fighters able to take victory or defeat. It follows that they would continue as POW”s capable of surviving the Germans.

Dave and all I have received E-mail correspondence from a former U.S. airman who was also an ex-POW in STALAG Luft III, STLAG VIIA, and other transit type camps. I hope he will join us here and have extended him an enthusiastic invitation. COME ON IN QUENTIN!

Well my work at the hospital was as a clerk in the Post Exchange. In that way I had many conversations with the patients. It was a center for head and neck injuries..and also Psychonurological injuries ...and the first thing I had to learn was what you brought up Joan, that many with no apparent injuries were here as patients due to the psychological injury they had sustained.

I also found that many of the paraplegic patients were here not so much for treatment of the physical injury as the psychological injury of returning home with no legs, or with a back injury causing paralysis. Our boss (a second lieutenant)told us they would go to a different hospital for physical therapy and long term care.

We did have a plastic surgery center here as another commonly seen injury was terrible facial scaring and these young men had the worst time of it, mentally, from what I saw. They often would not see or let family see them. The aides and nurses had to bring them to the PX and stay with them and assist them. They seemed totally injured not just scarred. They were withdrawn even when we civilians attempted to reach out in friendship.

I admit it was very difficult to smile and act friendly and serve these young men who might have no face, or no jaw, or other missing parts of their face. Some one told me there were lots of flame thrower injuries from the Islands. This was the hardest thing I had to learn, self control in viewing these terribly injured people. I only worked there a few months but I took away a lasting memory of the difficult time these young men were facing . This was in late 44 and early 45 so there were no returned prisoners of war from the Pacific Theater of Operations yet. If there were it did not come to my attention. Still all of the patients I talked to came from the PTO. faith

First of all, I've met Cdr Tyminski through the Polish Naval Association. (At one time we had a quite active though small Chapter here in Chicago and I often hosted lunch for our members and their wives after our annual February Mass.) I'm not sure where we met, it might have been at a big convention in England at Fawley Court or in Canada when we were up there. But his name is well known and I believe that our Cdr Lichodziejewski served on the Blyskawicza at one time. My younger daughter's godfather( K.Gidzinski) was on the Destroyer that spotted the Bismarck. There were a lot of Polish ships that served under British command..(Polski Marynarzy Wojennej) where were they going to go..? If they were out at sea ..and they went back to Poland they'd be captured by the Germans. Regarding my husband, I had an earlier post explaining..His father was a Polish Naval Officer and in charge of the Dockyard at Gdynia (Poland)My husband went to Naval College,he was an officer in 1939 and deployed with other men to fight(on land) He was captured, escaped, recaptured sent to Auschwitz.On the same day he was there Paris fell, so instead of being killed he ended up in Sachsenhausen. Because he had the same name as his father, he was imprisoned under a pseudonym. After he was marched out in 1945, just like the POW's,he went to England to re-join the Polish Navy which was under British command. He saw no war service at Sea..and was demobbed from the Navy in 1947.. Hope this helps. Colkot P.S. Apparantly there was always an ORP Garland and yes Judy Garland was indeed the ship's mother much to the delight of the men,

Colcot,

I'm just beginning to put your story together. (Thank you, Harold, for asking. I thought I was the only one confused.)

Colcot, your husband has an amazing story. Is he still alive?

Did he come directly to the US after the war?

I feel like we picked up your husband's story in the middle; now we're putting a beginning and an end on it. Fascinating.

Rich

Thank you Calkot for the additional explanation. I better understand your husbands career now. Perhaps previously I was trying to be a bit too quick in my reading. I sort of thought you might have known the Captain. I note his last command was a Cruiser that of course is a larger ship than a destroyer.

I think we see in the careers of the Polish Captain, your husband, and your self how the war changed lives. The captains post war career was centered in the west Indies and Canada and I doub't that your husband a young Polish Naval Officer in 1939 would have envisioned his future in the U.S. and Chicago.

Come to think of it, In a far lese dramatic way it changed my life also.

PS So It was a Polish Destroyer in the Destroyer Squadron that attacked the Bismark with Torpedos the Night before the final Battle. I somehow had previously had the Polish ship in the Schornhorst Battle a year later. I remember now, it was in the Bismark battle.

Faith, you put faces when we sometimes think of dates and numbers. What must the post-war years have been like for these men you remember still. At a time when so many wanted to put the war behind them and build the new world they had been dreaming about, for many, this wasn't possible. I'm remembering them today.

You mention your husband spent time at Auschwitz - was this a death camp at that time, Colkot? There were several allusions to such camps, I've read nothing specific yet -

"The SS needed no lessons in mass execution - they could herd prisoners in groups in ditches outside the camp and mow them down en masse." - somewhere in the book, I read they killed 400 Jews this way.

Then there was the account from one of a group of marchers - Americans, arriving at Stalag VII A In Moosburg - the men were told to take a decontamination shower. "I thought we were going to be gassed" John Parsons - p.275

That caught my eye immediately. Moosburg seems to have been the biggest camp of them all - built for 10, 000 prisoners, then grew to 80, 000, with the new arrivals pushing numbers to 130,000 - they couldn't even count them anymore! Where's the Geneva Conference when we need it!

Harold, I think you told us that Quentin was a POW at Stalag VIIA - this was in Moosburg! Dave and Quentin, can you tell us what you knew of death camps - of mass gas chambers during the war? How and when did others learn of them? I had thought they weren't known about until the camps were finally liberated, but remember hearing that word was out back in the US before this. What do the rest of you remember? My eyes opened when I read of the Moosburg prisoner who feared the decontamination shower... What tension and fear these POWs had to live with!

Have read your May book review postings on the Nichal and Rennell "The Last Escape" with interest. Will be looking for a copy tomorrow, than will possibly add a comment or two after I have a chance to read some of it. I was a 9th AF fighter pilot and spent the last few months of the German conflict, as a pow in Germany, ended up in Stalag Luft 1 at Barth germany, liberated by the Russians, they delayed releasing us to the Allies so the 8th AF flew us out in boarded up bomb bays of the heayy bombers. 8000 were flown out over about a 3 day period and some 1000 walked out.

Not sure what the tone of the book is but am sure it will be interesting.. Regards RossT

In the book there isn't much discussion of how the Red Cross was organized. Sometimes they would send someone ahead of the march to determine if the Red Cross had left parcels for them. Wonder how the Red Cross distributed these parcels throughout the area -- how did they find the men who were marching across Poland and Germany?

Ross T, Thank you for joining us. I am sure you will find the book interesting since it does cover the particular liberation experience of POW”s at STALAG Luft 1 (pp 248 – 250). The POW’s were allowed to stay in the camp to await the Russians thus avoiding the usual exhausting evacuation on-foot trek through the winter cold. And this was the only instance in which the Russians allowed air evacuation of POW’s liberated by them. This was a deal involving the exchange of Russian traitor General Andrei Vlasov who had organized and commanded Russian POW units fighting for the Germans.

Perhaps you might comment on the account given in the book (pp248 – 250) as compared to your experience. Again thank you for your participation.

Kidsal you ask gook questions. The Red Cross task of supplying food packages to POW’s, particularly those being evacuated, was a complex and difficult one. Maybe it was an impossible one under the chaotic conditions in Germany as the 3rd Reich collapsed. Remember the roads were clogged with all kinds of refugees fleeing the Russian army, not just POW’s while allied fighter-bombers bombed bridges and strafed any group suspected of being German military units. To top this off there was an extreme shortage of fuel required for delivery trucks. In such chaos the regular delivery of supplies to the POW’s particularly those in evacuation columns was impossible.

Again I think local conditions played a role in Red Cross supplies being available. There are a number of accounts in the book of a column arriving at a rail junction town where by luck aid packages were available. Also there is the experience of Luft 1 mentioned above where the lucky combination of available trucks and fuel and a cooperative camp commander permitted POW’s to drive 80 miles for them. (pp 248 –250).

I have my work day at the local National Historical Park this afternoon, but will check back in this early evening.

I spent this morning searching for a site that my cousin's son put up about his father who was a WWII POW in Poland or Germany. Instead, I found this site and the story of my cousin's crew and how they crashed in Annaberg and how his son John returned there in 2001 to help recover pieces of his father's plane. He is the person put up his father's site and I am attempting to get to it but having trouble. Anyway, here is the story with pictures that is up in one of the USAAF sites here on the net. Although the link to Jerry's site on that page does not work and I have informed the author and asked him to send me good link, the story written quite well done and I hope you enjoy it.

Following Lt. Ryan

I just got to the part in the book where the home arrivals of many POWs featured in the earlier chapters are depicted.

This is the most moving narrative in the book. Not all homecomings were happy. Like being told by your wife that, all the time you were behind barbed wire and machine guns, dreaming of your reunion with her, she was living it up with another man and now wants a divorce. Also the carryover of prison habits into civilian life: Stealing food from other people's plates, although surrounded by abundance; hoarding matches and cigarettes for future trading, nightmares, imagining that your wife is a guard and hitting her.

This turns out to be the hardest part of the book to read.

Rich

Another good book on this topic that I would recommend is " Forgotten Victims" by Mitchell G. Bard. The book covers many American victims caught by Nazis, both military and civilian. Many ended up in concentrations camps. Our government knew about much of this yet did nothing to attempt to save these American lives. We have much to be ashamed of.

Will try to find where you are in this discussion and join in. I know just reading the first few pages brought tears to my eyes ...anna

There are so many questions that have been asked of me..yes,my husband was briefly in Auschwitz/Oswiecim, then sent to Sachsenhausen,Germany which "saved" his life.(My youngest child (daughter) happened to be in Europe shooting "Jakub the the Liar" which was based on a book about Sachsenhausen..she went to the remains of the camp..just to see where her father had spent five years.. Her observation " how could the people in town NOT know what was going on, especially as the road to the camp passed right through it" It was a chilling experience.)

Also I would never have met Kostek if it had not been for WW2. Remember the Yalta conference? It meant that many Poles could or would not return to a Poland which had been taken over by the Russians. So after my husband was demobbed from the Navy,( I still have his papers ) he stayed in England.. he was an engineer.. and learned English and tried to get a job( as did all other returnees) and waited to hear whatever news he could get about what was left of his family. In so doing, he missed the first flush of DP's who were going to start life anew in the US.Between 1947 and 1959,he was able to find out that his Navy father was still alive, but now imprisoned by the Communists. Also that parts of the family were alive in Poland and that his cousin was in the US and wanted him to immigrate.

My husband was a gifted engineer/draftsman with no prospects in England no matter what his citizenship. We met because of his other great love, Polish Folk Dance & Ethnography. We worked together on creating a multi -ethnic Polish Dance group, got married and had our first son before his father was released from prison after 1956 uprising. I met my father-in-law briefly for two weeks in 1958 and 6 months later, he was found in the forest in Bielany with his son's letter in his hand announcing the prospect of another grandchild. We left England for US in 1959,on the British Quota, a family with 1 child and another on the way (there are 4) and have been in Chicago ever since.

My husband died in January 1999...he was well regarded, not only as an engineer but as a teacher of youth, whether it be math, blueprint reading,or Polish Dance & Culture for three generations of Polish Americans..including Youth Concerts with the Chicago Symphony. He held many awards for his work from Civic & Cultural Organizations.

I can speak about" prison camp" problems later. Colkot

Colkot, I know that you answered the questions of several people, but I want to thank you for answering my questions in such beautiful detail. Your husband led an amazing life, and was a remarkable man. There must be something remarkable that he saw in you, as well. He was right.

Rich

Click Here for B&N information on the "Forgotten Victims" title mentioned in Post 125 by Stoatley. The B&N page does not say much about it. Who were these American Victims, American civilians in Germany when the war began?

Annafair your input is always welcome. I think you will find the book very readable and interesting. We are not following a chapter-by-chapter schedule. Rather we are discussing individual issues raised by the book as introduced by my self or by comment or questions posted by participants. I thought this departure from our traditional discussion format desirable because of the repetitious nature of the several evacuations of POW’s from some half dozen different camps. Each of these different events had much in common such as cold, hunger, disease, exhaustion, and etc. The details of each tended to repeat many times. Only the names of the actors were different.

I think that this format so far is working well as it allows all of us to insert our own individual WW II experience and remembrances (Particularly welcome from the ex-POW;s and colkot who was on the scene) and comment on the new WW II memorial and its coming dedication May 29th. I am going to suggest, however, that we do withhold discussion of the concluding Chapters 14,15, and the Epilog until the concluding week of the discussion after the may 29th dedication of the memorial

Thank you Colkot for the interesting story of you family's post war immigration to the U.S. Our country is the richer for your decision to come here. Here in Texas we have several unique 19th century towns that today still particularly reflect Polish culture.

Rich I too had mixed emotions on the stories in the Coming Home chapter but let’s hold this for a final conclusion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MortKail - 09:32am May 11, 2004 PST (#9 of 12) BACK ALIVE IN 45

I just returned from a squadron reunion in Washington DC and am glad I'm still able to walk long distances.

First of all, I visited the new World War II Memorial, which was impressive and pretty in the sunlight. Every state has a pillar and there are quotes by Eisenhower, Truman, Marshall, McArthur and others carved into stone throughout. But I don't think it conveys the individual feeling of being in battle, or of just serving during the War. The Vietnam Memorial and Korean Memorial do that a lot better. But that's one man's opinion. As for the walking, It's about 1 1/2 miles from the nearest station, so I recommended to my old squadron buddies that they take a tour bus.

Next day, the organization provided buses to take us to the new Smithsonian Air/Space Museum near Dulles Airport. It's about an hour drive from downtown and parking is about $14. But you can get there by taking a bus from the main Air Museum for $7 round trip. The new museum had everything a former airdale could hope for. Of course the Anola Gay, which I feel saved a million of us by dropping the A bomb instead of making us invade Japan. It also saved many millions of Japanese who would have resisted to the death. (Think of all or our children and grandchildren who wouldn't be here now). There was also a Space shuttle, many of my favorite WWII airplanes, many types of commercial planes, from the China Clipper to the Concord, early flyers, experimental models, etc. The huge Quanset Hut style museum building has plenty of room for more plances and will be adding displays on a regular basis. Their docents (tour guides) are very well informed, so I recommend that you go on one of the regularly scheduled tours. But be prepared to walk huge distances in the museum. It's worth it.

My last day there I went to the Navy Memorial. Another museum an old salt shouldn't miss. Make sure you see the great film about life on modern aircraft carriers. I wanted to see some of the other museums before my 5 p.m. train home. The American Museum of Natural History was so fascinating that I didn't have time to visit any others. In fact I just got back to the station in time to catch my train home. With all the free museums, it's a great place for a retired person to live.

Gotta run now, but I'll send more if anyone is interested. Mort

Mort, thank you so much for posting your reaction to the WWII Memorial... it's funny that you mention the Korean Memorial - the marchers walking throught the snow and mud, poorly equipped, poorly clothed for winter months... I have been to this memorial a number of times and have talked to visiting bets of this war - for whom this memorial brings forth so many memories. (It probably gets to WWII POWs too!) I'm quite interested to hear how WWII Vets react to the new memorial. That's why your reaction is of particular interest. What was the reaction of your fellow crew-mates? The same? Yes, please do come back - we are interested!

Colkot - thank YOU so much for your account! Your daughter asked an important question - how could the people in the towns surrounding the camps NOT know what was going on in the camps? I have a question - when you and others refer to "concentration camps" - are these Prisoner of War camps AND the same camps where the Jews were incarcerated and then slaughtered? The names are the same, but I can't see Allied POWs and the Jews in the same "camps"...

Ann, the web site is priceless! The photos! I'll bet the sight of the POW card brings back memories for all of the POWs here. (Click here for a quick look at the POW card) And your cousin made his way to Moosburg - this was the big one where so many ended up right before war's end! That photo should bring back memories for many. Thanks you!! Thank you!!

Just back from morning walk...have been keeping eyes open for the arrival of our "scourge" of cicadas, which occurs here in the east every 17 years. Some call it a plague. Right now the lawns are teeming with nymphs as they make their way to the surface, shed their skins, cocoons, not sure which - before they climb the trees and the mating calls begin. Quite a happening - they are to be here until the end of June...am sure their presence will be known for the dedication of the WWII memorial at the end of the month!

When I saw the swarms of nymphs covering every square inch of ground this morning, I thought this must be what the German countryside was like during the end of the war as the Allies moved in from the west, the Russian lines from the east and hundreds of thousands of prisoners moving in every direction as they made their way from camp to camp, escapees, not knowing where they are going, all as disoriented as the swarming cicadas who suddenly find themselves on the surface of the earth in the sun. Kidsal, no wonder the Red Cross could't keep up with the lines of marchers! If confined to camps, they were easier to locate, but as has been pointed out, fuel and transport being in short supply, the powers-that-be preferring to divert such resources to the battlefront. Could this happen again? With modern communications, many would be able to communicate with cell phones...

Ross - we are all looking forward to hearing from you. You are a precious resource! So many questions for you!

Where were you captured? Were you injured?

How did you get to Stalag Luft I? Did you march?

How were you treated by the Germans? The Russians? Were they as savage as described in the book?

Did you have any word from the outside? Did you have an idea why the Russians were delaying your release?

I reread the section in the book that describes Stalag Luft I (thanks, Harold!) - It sounds as if the camp was terribly overcrowded, but that the Germans kept you fed - only at the end was food in short supply. Can you tell us about the day the Germans ordered you to evacuate the camp and you all refused? That must have been something! Were you in great fear at the time?

In rereading this section, I am reminded of the terms of the Yalta agreement which called for the forced return of the Cossacks (certain death for them) in exchange for Allied prisoners. Ross, you might not even be here to tell the story had the terms, disagreeable as they were for the poor Russian POWs, NOT been honored at the time. Did you learn of the exchange for Andrei Vlasov? So many questions - will stop here and give you and others a chance. We're just happy that you found us!

I had better start my first post to your Discussion Group by calling attention to the fact that in the SeniorNet web site under WWII Living Memorial, Memories Gallery, I have a document titled, Selected Recollections Chosen From a Fortunate Life which contains memoirs of my prison camp days at, BUDAPEST Federal Penitentiary , Stalag Luft III and Stalag VIIA..I stress Budapest because in no other published record have I found any record of this Transit Camp,although thousands of Army Air Corps officers must have been processed there! I am now actively studying why this is so and why Dulag Luft (thirteen kilometers northwest of Frankfort am Main). is described, in a number of reports, as the transit camp through which all fliers passed!

However, your site is about the book, The Last Escape not my missing transit camp and I write to point out that none of Stalag Luft IV POWs I'm in touch with ever heard the fascinating story of the 1800 men who left the camp by sea, as told in Chapter 1. They now remember only the endless "death" march!

I think the authors did an excellent with their chapter Out into the Cold. It tells me some things I didn't about my own Camp!

It's a long book, so expect more from me as I get further along.

Quentin, happy to see you here! Your memoirs are very important and quite relevant to this discussion. Thank you for pointing us to them. Look here> photos too!
A Fortunate Life:The War Years
We've been reading about Stalag LuftIII and Stalag VIIA and you were there! We look forward to reading more - about the Budapest Transit Camp too. Thank you!

POW camps were for prisoners of war..all those who were captured doing their fighting duty whatever it might have been.

Concentration camps were for anyone whom the Nazis decided were "undesirable" whether they were Jews, Homosexuals, little people. gypsies etc. The camps were also used to imprison intellectuals from which ever country the Nazis had taken over. For instance the professors from the Jagiellonian University,Krakow were sent to Sachsenhausen. (There is a memorial inside the University listing the names of those who did not survive, I saw it in 1978 when I was taking a summer course in Poland) The reason my husband was NOT in POW camp was that there was a price on his head in his real name so he had different papers. Thanks for the kind words.. Colkot

I’ve spent the day catching up with my bookkeeping and now find that the board has been active with two new first time posters. Welcome MortKail and Quentin. Thank you Mort for your review of your visit to the Memorial. You and Joan I believe are the only ones in our group who have actually seen it. I know it is difficult to really get to understand it from pictures. I and I suppose others have only seen it through the Architect’s watercolor pictorial renditions. The images I linked I thought were quite good as pictures go. In particular I thought they gave an accurate picture showing its setting on the Mall with respect to its surroundings- the Washington and Lincoln Monuments. I could actually read the Eisenhower and Marshall quotes carved into the Atlantic Arch that I included in an earlier post. Do you remember seeing one of the columns labeled for the Philippines that was then a colony but since has become an independent country?

The Smithsonian Air and Space Museum is a wonderful resource. I missed it the last time I was in DC in 1997. during the 80’s I was there almost every year and I missed only a few years in the 90’S after I retired. I see the Smithsonian will open a National American Indian Museum on the Mall later this year. One of the checks I wrote this morning was for a membership that includes a subscription to a new Indian History Magazine.

Quentin I am sorry for the sign-in problem the other day that now seems to be fixed. Your presence now makes 3 ex-POW’s who are now active here. Let me suggest that you skip ahead to read the part on the Airlift that brought you out of Russian jurisdiction. Did you know at the time that that except for that one air lift, Russia had refused many allied requests to set up air evacuations of Western POW's? Did you know of the quid quo pro that that enable the air lift from STALAG Luft1?

I am new to this website and have only begun to read the book under discussion. I assume from what I have read that you are the discussion leader. If I am wrong, please correct me. In light of the grandstanding and posturing of certain politicians, it certain is revealing to note that our treatment of the Muslim POWs is almost gentle compared to what our American and British POWs received in some of the forced marches at the end of WWII. Add to this the recent beheading of an American civilian and our military soldiers look pretty good in my view. When one contemplates how the Japanese, Germans, Vietnamese, and the Mid-Eastern Muslims have treated POWs in the past, in order to obtain intelligence information during war times, I am amazed over the uproar and indignation caused by a few photographs of 21 year old kids trying to please their superiors who have instructed them to "sofen them up for interrogation". There are lots of torture methods worse than taking away a prisoner's clothes. Ask some of our living ex-POWs like Sen. John McCane.

Yes come on in and join the discussion. I am serving as Discussion Leader, but that does not limit others from raising new issues in any post they make. I summarized this in the heading and I only ask that we save the last 2 chapters 14 and 15 and the Epilog for the end. Were you around for WW II? Any WW II experienced of you or your family will be welcome as will your take on the new WW II Memorial in Washington that will be dedicated Memorial day weekend.

I just found some 45 B&W snapshots taken on Ulithi Atol in September & October 1945. There are quite a few of me, but since I was the one with the Camera most are of buddies. I note every one of us was really skinny, not an ounce of fat in the group though we were well fed on Navy chow plus PX candy. I remember at the time I had a 30-inch waste and weighed about 130 pounds. Now some 60 years later its a 38-inch waist and 230 pounds.

I was much impressed with the character of several of the Camp POW leaders. I always thought that military rules governed selection of persons to fill this office. That is I thought the highest-ranking POW officer got the command as for example Col Hogan in “Hogan’s Heroes.. The individual that got the most pages in the book I suppose was the RAF Pilot Sergeant Dixie Deans. His camp leadership was featured in the first Chapter and he appeared again in several later chapters. Apparently the POW leader at STALAG Luft 1 was a command level officer who seams to have effectively negotiated with the German commander to allow the prisoners to remain in the camp to await the Russians rather than evacuate as ordered by the SS Command.

Perhaps Dave, Ross,. and Quentin will say something about same of the POW leaders they knew. Did the POW’s elect them or did the leadership come by reason of their rank? Were they effective in their promotion of the interest s of the POW’s?.

This is RossT, ex pow that checked in a couple days ago. Harold, in your intro to my first post you suggested I read about Stalag Luft 1, Barth Germany pg 248-250. It was years later I learned of the negotations to hand over General Andri Vlasov to the Russians for permission to fly us out of Barth. My life at Barth was not too eventful, Many web sites cover the daily life in most of the camps far better than I ever could, My experiences getting to Barth are another story. Stalag Luft 1 had 4 compounds, the last being opened about the first of 1945 and soon was full of Americam Airmen. The camp was over capacity by the end of the War, Food supply stoped for about 6 weeks as stated in the book and had been in very short supply for a couple months before. Of the 4 compounds only two had central mess and kitchens, North 2 and 3 had barracks with a stove in each room for 15 or 20 men. We were on our own for cooking. Usually each rooms Krigies formed a combine and if and when Red Cross Packages were available the staples and canned foods were combined and ciggarets and candy (like money for barter) were kept by the individual.During the food stoppage the British and American Commanders ordered the garbage cans in the compounds with kitchens to be guarded around the clock to prevent starving men from eating contaminated garbage. Food staples were potatoes, cabbage, some black bread filled with sawdust and other unmentionables, and the undigestable rutabaga. On the nite of May 1, 45 the guards marched off and the Russian Land Army started to arrive. for nearly 2 days they galloped by. Vertually no motorized vehicles, all horses. Cossack Types but mostly wagons and carts. Thousands of them. Each loaded full of nondescpipt weapons, Vodka, Women a PLENTY and they were as mean as the men. The Germans were understandably in fear of their lives, The morning of May 2, outside the main gate of the camp, before the Russians had really started to arrive, what appeared to be, and was reported to be a Barth family of an infant in a carrage, its mother, and grandmother. All were shot in the head, the report given was death and suicide rather than Russian occupation. It was rumored they had tried to gain entry to the camp but for some reason could not.

I spent several days with the Russians and a couple of nights. Everything you have heard about their hatred for the Germans is true. They were mostly peasants, part of the occupation army and camped all over the area. The language barrier made it almost impossible to communicate but once they found out we were American or British we were treated with respect and awe. Language was no problem, they fed us and offered us weapons, Vodka, food, and made it clear we could take anything we wanted from the Germans, and if they resisted, shoot them. I never heard of a Kreige taking advantage of the German residence of Barth however.

A few hundred of the POWs decided to walk out, against orders, but most decided to stay as ordered as the commanders were optomistic we would be getting transportation soon. We never dreamed the 8th Air Force would be our wheels. I will never forget the march to the airport, the men sang like angels every step of the way, every marching song I had ever heard including the Anthem.

Much too lengthy, sorry.

Joan, you asked several questions, I'll try to be brief Where captured? France near Prouville, 34 km N.N.W.of Amiens I was a Fighter Pilot, P47 Thunderbolt, Aug 9, 44, 4Pm local time. Had been on a ground support mission, shot up by ground fire, lost power and crashlanded near a German antiaircraft battery and captured immediately, Rough landing, sholder restraints failed and suffered some injury. How did I get to Stalag Luft 1? I don't remember the first few days of capture too well but I finally arriver in Barth the end of September or first of October. The first few days of capture I was held in and around the area I was shot down. Than held at a couple of other farm type buildings a short distance away. I was interogated by some rather mean SS types for a couple of hours, no real rough stuff but stripped down and all clothing carefully searched including the seams of shirt and trouser. To this day I don't know what they were looking for, I was held at Leon France police station a few days, than loaded on a beat up truck and after a couple of stops to pick up more Americans we wound up at the Paris Train Station on about August 22nd. Not sure of the date (about 60 years ago) but it was the day before Paris was liberated, We arrived in Paris at about daybreak, and there was some street fighting going on in the outskirts, the guards were nervous, stopped a couple of times but finally made it to the station. Loaded that evening on a train to Frankfurt, Dulag Luft interrogation center for a little over 2 weeks, than more trains to Barth. Most train travel was at night, mostly in shot up box cars, 1 coach out of Berlin part way to Barth. Sloooowww trip and very nerveracking. I had spent several months shooting up any thing that moved in France and prayed they wouldnt try any daylight trips. They didnt.

Were the Russians savage, Yes, read my comments to Harold.

Word from the outside, As for mail and packages, almost none the last year or so of the war. There were 16 men in my room for over 7 months I received 4 or 5 letters and no packages I was sent dozens of both letters and packages by family but little got through. the same for the other guys as best I can recall. A Lt. Overdorff from PA in my room got a card with a white feather it that really tore him up. To be shot down in a bomber and captured is bad enough but to be called a coward is unbearable.

There was communication by radio coming in to the camp on hidden receivers. A camp paper, 1 or 2 pages called the POW WOW was distributed secretly on ocassion with outside news. It was passed from compound to compound by throwing it over the barbed wire fence rolled up in a small container.

Treatment by the Germans, Stalag Luft 1 OK, some real rough treatment on the way there by a few guards, some nervous moments at a couple train yards that had Hitler youth entrenched. Those kids would kill you with no look back. Its hard to remember we were the bad guys to them, hated, terrorfligers.

Regards, RossT

Harold, In the book the commander mentioned at the close of the war was Col. Hub Zempke, senior officer in the camp. Before him was a Col. Spicer, exceptional man, great leader, never heard anything negative, he was ordered by the German Commander to denounce his country and embrace Nazi Germany and encourage the entire camp to follow, he refused and spent the rest of the war in solitary confinement. Dont recall enough of Spicers background to relate. Hub Zempke was the Group Commander of the 56th Fighter group, 8th AF, they scored more air victories than any other American Group, He was in my compound, north 2 and one of his room mates was one of Hubs Squadron Commanders, Lt. Col Gabe Gabresky, leading American ace with 26 Kills. When they opened the new compound, north 3, Gabe took command of that till the end. Hub and Gabe were both qualified and capable to command and as far as I ever knew did their jobs professionally, were professionals and earned the respect of not only the POWs but the Germans as well.

Regards RossT

You asked me if I was around during WWII? Indeed I was not only around, I flew 35 bombing missions from Italy (461st Bomb Group) as a pilot of a B-24 over a period of one year, 1944-45. I published my war experienced in a book, ONE MORE MISSION: A JOURNEY FROM CHILDHOOD TO WAR. www.jpettey.com --By the way, I just reviewed your website. You are an interesting fellow-- Fortunately, I was never a POW; although I came close several times when my aircraft was badly damaged by FLAK. I am learning about POW life from THE LAST ESCAPE and your discussion group. For instance, I am shocked to read that many American POWs received letters with a white feather accusing them of being cowards, along with "Dear John" letters. I did not know that "THE GREATEST GENERATION" acted at times much like a later generation who spit on returning Vietnam veterans. I am now convinced that our WWII POWs, both German and Japanese prisoners, paid a heavy price and have never received the respect they deserved. They were brave soldiers who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. They certainly were not cowards.

Just getting caught up in my reading in this discussion group.

Harold, you are attracting a lot of people (heroes) with a wealth of information!

Joan, I don't know why, but that POW card is chilling. It looks as innocent as a driver's licence or library card. The Germans were so efficient.

Quentin, Your story is amazing. Interesting how that Budapest camp has been lost to history. Is is possibly because it fell within the Soviet sphere, the Hungarians wanted to erase any trace of German collaboration?

The Gee box interrogation story is just made for a movie script. Did you ever find out what happened to Lt. Sorenson? The different versions about Patton liberating Moosburg (in a jeep, in a tank, etc.) are probably testimony to the condition the POW's were in and their emotional state at the time.

Ross, Your description of the Russians was enlightening. I guess they were really rough people, even the many women.

Best, Rich

Thank you Ross for your comment on POW life at Stalag Luft I and your comment of the book’s account. Your recollection seems quite parallel to the book’s account. There is a web site (linked below) that gives additional details on the POW Camp Leader Colonel Henry Spicer. It tells details of his being shot down over the Channel and his resistance to Nazi indoctrination at the camp and the Court Martial that followed. He was sentenced to six months solitary confinement after which he was to be shot. Fortunately the Germans left and the Russians arrived one day before the six-month confinement ended.

Your description of the Russian troops fits some of the history accounts I have read of the final Russian move to take Berlin. The Red Army at the time had its modern mechanized armor divisions supported by immense concentrations of artillery and rocket firepower. It also used the immense concentrations of raw, illiterate peasant manpower that you described including cavalry and horse drawn supply wagons. The combination worked because of their willingness to take the heavy causalities that are to be expected when an army clears a mine field by marching an infantry battalion across it.

Also the Russians use of women in battle zone situations was in marked contrast to the western experience. In particular Russian medical aid units were often Women. One of the accounts from Berlin the day after the fall, has a group of Russian (strangely touristlike) women doctors inspecting the bunker while the bodies of the assorted suicides were still where they had fallen. The only U.S Military women I know of who became POW’s were Nurses captured when the Philippines fell. Is this correct?

The Following are some interesting links to Stalag Luft 1 Web sites. In particular I recommend reading the one on Colonel Henry Russell Spicer who was mention in the post of Ross Above. I found these sites by a Google search on the string, Stalag Luft 1. There were many other hits.

Colonel Henry Russell Spicer http://www.georgelesko.com/news/conference1.htm

Pictures of the Town of Barth including a scale modle of the POW Camp and several local post-war Memorials: http://www.winternet.com/~stetrick/photos.html

For other Web sites do your own Google search on Stalag Luft 1 or a similar search string. Ther is a lots of information out there.

Rich - Thanks for responding. Yes, I'm sure you are right when you suggest that the Budapest Federal Penn. fell off the map after the Soviets took over the city. Still, why was it ignored by U.S.Army historians. Sloppy history?

Yes!!, Lt. Sorenson was found to have made it to Stalag Luft 3 by a skilled web master in San Antonio, Chuck Farrow. Obviosly, he endered a different compound than mine (South) so his purge list was never posted there!

I'llk stick to my story on Patton's arrival at VII A! See Arthur Durand's book .

Quentin

Quentin, please tell us more about Patton at Stalag ViiA (Mooseburg). Were you there when Patton’s troops liberated them April 22, 1945? The book describes this event on pages 381 – 384. One of the quotations even implies that the General was the first of the liberating troops to enter the camp. I took it as a PR play on the part of the General who was not the only American or British General who never passed an opportunity for media coverage.

This was a relatively easy liberation for the POW’s though they did certainly have some scary moments as what could have been a fierce battle loomed as probable. Some of the Liberated Brits were home within a few days and though it took longer for the Americans they were free and on their way home.

Harold: This is just the type of response I had hoped would come from the discussion of this book...thank you to everyone who has participated..Did you know that there is some type of reciprocal arrangement that WW2 Vets who were now living in the USA could register with the American Veterans?

Colkot

Thank you colkot for your comments. I agree that credit is due all of you participants. Thank you also for nominating this title. The “Last Escape” has proved itself the perfect backdrop for our commemoration of WW II and the dedication of the Memorial.

I did not know of the reciprocal arrangement, but on reflection I have no problem with it. I am guessing that the number of veterans of European and British Commonwealth armies now in the U.S. number in the hundreds of thousands. Obvious veterans of Allied armies fit comfortably with U.S. veterans but perhaps the idea of such reciprocity becomes more difficult with respect to Axis army veterans. I remember in the book at least one story of a minor league SS officer who later immigrated to the U.S., and I know there were many immigrants from Italy, Japan, and Germany including the SS. I suppose at this late date the time has come where we can all come together as Veterans of a terrible war. In many ways everyone was a victim of the fascist leadership, including in the end the people of the Axis Countries also.

Comments anyone?

Harold,

On the issue of Nazis entering the US, there is an article in today's NY Times entitled "U.S. Provided Safe Haven to Nazi War Criminals" by Elizabeth Olson.

Basically, the article states that many of these people had intelligence that could be used in fighting the Cold War. Ironically, it was the feeling of the German high command in WWII that the West would join with them in fighting the Bolshevists. Such a union between Western interests and some Nazis appears to have actually taken place, albiet to a small extent.

Harold, you asked a question some time ago about war crimes trials for lower level Nazi's. We have no evidence, from this book at least, that any took place. The book tells us that during their "exit interview" ex POWs were asked if any crimes were committed against them, and who committed them, but there doesn't appear to have been any follow-through.

Rich

Hi Rich and all; I’ve been goofing off this afternoon learning to use my new Scanner that is part of the 4 in on HP Printer/copier/scanner/fax that I’ve been using for 3 months for printing but just now tried the scanning function. I scanned some of my WW II ,B&W pictures taken in the navy at Ulithi Atoll. I was there from mid August to mid Nov 1945. They were very small B& W prints. After scanning and enhancement with Photoshop I was able to increase the size and bring out more detail. Before the end of the month I will add some of them to my Web Page.

Rich, I think the Cold War made Americans out of several prominent ex-Germans. I suppose the most prominent of the group was Werner von Braun the rocket specialist that had developed the V-2 Rocket bomb that caused much concern in the UK as the war neared its close. He probably was never a true Nazi and at times was in trouble with the Gestapo and SS, but he certainly contributed to their weapons stockpile. He seems to have made the transaction rather easily.

Rich I too do not know of any trial of POW camp guards resulting from ex-Pow’s charges. I do not remember the book documenting any. There were of course many minor league nazis prosecutions following the main trial at Nuremberg. I think immediately after the top Level Nuremberg trial their was a second trial for the next level. I think SS General Gottlob Berger was in that Group. He was one of Himmler’s so called 12 apostles who became a confident of Hitler in the Bunker at the end. He left the Bunker with Hitler’s direct orders in a matter we will discuss in detail next week. For suffice it to say in his case the trial court was lenient giving brownie points for not executing Hitlers order he got off with only 25 years. Actually he served much less time than the sentence.

Many minor league Nazi officers on all levels were tried and some were dealt with severely. Many of these trials were in the countries where they had committed the wartime crimes. I remember several 1946 –48 newsreel shots of executions, one in particular in Hungary who executed their ex-Nazi Police General by garroting, that is strangling him in public with a piano wire. I am sure many of the lower levels and some of the top ranks got away with no punishment or at any rate far less than their crimes deserved.

I don't think we should ever forgive the German's for their contration camp exterminations or their murder of American GIs captured in the Battle of the Bulge. And anyone who read Flags of our fathers, Flyboys, With the Old Breed, Helmet for my Pillow, etc. can never forgive the Japanise for their atrocities to captured marines, soldiers and sailors.

I never realized it, but a docent at the new Smithsonian air museum at Dulles Airport, told us that the Japanese had two stipulations to their surrender. One that they keep the Emperor and the other that war criminals not be tried and punished. He said only a few of them were brought to trial. The Japanese books, when they mention WWII now say that the US started that "minor war".

Sorry I didn't read the book, but as soon as it comes out in Audio, I'll put a hold on it at the library. I usually do all my reading while working our or walking. Airgunner Mort

I'm playing catch-up this week, just having finished Chapter X - Patton's trimphant liberation of Stalag Luft VII A. I had to smile at the account of the restrained Brits celebrating his entry and the liberation with "a quiet brew of tea in the sun." It is with some confusion that I read Quentin's own eyewitness account of the reception Patton received that very same day!
"Contrary to other's reports, I observed no cheering. Instead, the fact that kriegies' lives had been lost because of his unwillingness to exchange our safety for a couple of bridges was not celebrated. It was a quiet, sullen group as I experienced it."

"After describing eye-witness reports of Patton arriving at Stalag VII-A in (1) a spotless staff-car (2) a jeep, and (3) a tank, Arthur Durand, in his most scholarly, highly-researched and documented book about the subject, Stalag Luft III, The Secret Story, states in a closing footnote, "Unfortunately, there is little agreement among the prisoners about this event." I have a theory. There are enough similarities in the published eye-witness stories of this liberation to suggest that he probably entered (liberated) the camp several times, perhaps even on different days, each recorded by a different observer. Of my story I am certain, unless George C. Scott was in Mooseburg that day!"
Quentin, I too was touched by the sentiments and sacrifice of your mates on your 21st birthday - and by the fact that you have kept the note all these years. Did you have further contact with any of them after the war?

Thanks so much to all who are contributing memories here - these eye-witness accounts are ... invaluable! Jesse, so glad you found your way in. A B54 pilot, 35 missions and fortunately not shot down. Will you share with us the memories you have of your feelings for fellow pilots who WERE shot down. I was relieved to hear that you NEVER heard of the white feathers sent to POWs like the one Ross remembers! So hard to understand the feelings that would have prompted such a response! Thank you for your comments regarding the disturbing photos showing the degrading treatment of some Iraqi prisoners by our young Americans. While we all cringe, your remarks help put in prospective what happens to judgment during war time when nerves are frayed, emotions are raw. These same young people will have many adjustments to make when they return home. Plus the fact that they will not receive much support or understanding from their neighbors and friends - the same people they were over in Iraq to serve. War is hell. For everyone. Here is the link to your website you asked to put up a few days ago. JessePettey's Web Page - complete with photos and jazzy music too!

Rich, no, no, never apologize for too long an account. I'll have to admit that I found your description of prison life more compelling and descriptive than anything in the book! Your description of being stripped down and searched brings to mind the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners. Degrading, and yet those Germans were paranoid that you were hiding something significant...that would hurt them.

Truck to train to prison. You seem to have been spared the marching! You were moved through Paris the day before liberation? I can't help but wonder if you'd have been forwarded on to Frankfurt had you arrived in Paris two days later than you did! Your "white feather" story will stick in my mind for a long time. Did you know of others who received them? What kind of people would regard you brave men as cowards? I can't understand that. Was this a widespread response to being captured as far as you know now?

The image of your march to the airport in song is another strong image that will stay with me. At what point did you learn how fortunate you were to be released and the Russian reluctance to send home other liberated POWs?

So much more, but I fear I've used up all my allotted bytes for today. Just need to thank Colkot for explaining who were detained at the concentration camps besides the Jews. Mort, didn't know that about the Japanese war criminals! Please stick around, you have memories that aren't in the book! You all make this discussion live and breathe, as if this all just happened!

Well I am still reading and have still not found a description of an experience such as my friend George had. It was just before our victory in Germany. He was a Sargent, driving a tank when his group was captured by a Panzer Division and these German soldiers treated the prisoners following all the Geneva Convention rules. Until they left them at a stalag ?, and then he began suffering but not as much as when the Americans were taken from this camp and marched by the Russian Liberators to somewhere behind Russian lines. The march was in mud and snow with little or no food to a miserable camp where he knew they were shooting their own returned prisoners of war.

What I find not mention of so far in the book is how he said he got home ..Was escorted by the Russians with others from his Corp to the town, then the airport where a cargo plane loaded the troops and flew them to a coast city where they left on a hospital ship.

Perhaps I am mistaken and it was Germans that marched him north (Mooseburg, perhaps)but I cant find where anybody got out on a plane. Maybe I am misreading. Or mis remembering Georges story.

I know the young man was in pretty bad shape a full year later in fall of 46. Working with my husband was his next to the first paid employment he had and he was still very weak plus he had to stop and eat every two hours. Then he suffered gas and pains for an hour or so till he had to eat again. He said "Thanksgiving is ruined for me forever." I am sure it was. Wish I knew what happened to he and his wife and new born baby. I last saw them sometime in May 1947.

This book has me reliving in many ways the war years. These were momentous years for me for other personal reasons, 1941 I turned 14 got pregnant got married had to leave my home and mother and the war stated. My husband was deferred from draft because of marriage, and new child in 1942. He tried to join several programs through his college but they wouldn't take him till 1943 when he finally joined the army air corp. So then I followed him around the United States till he was released in 45. We were no different than millions of other youngsters who grew up really fast in the war years.

But we were blessed. When I think of these men suffering in POW camps I just cant help crying all these years later. And it is worse when I turn on the news and listen to what happened in Irag with POW's. I just have to go out for a walk or sometimes I drive down to the big rose gardens around the capitol and just walk there to relax and get calmed down. This whole experience is different for me than just reading a book. Faith

I suppose it’s hard, particularly for those who were there! But never is a long, long time and the current Generation’s are innocent of Hitler’s and Tojo’s crimes. Though in the 1960’s the German People by their vote brought Hitler to power, grievously did they pay for it; by 1945 it might be argued that they too were the victims of Hitler’s madness.

And we too were not exactly innocent of wanton killings including the carpet-bombing of German Cities and nuclear bombings in Japan. Moreover reports of the machine-gunning of Japanese survivors in the water after the naval/air actions by U.S. warplanes have appeared in documented WW II histories. I my self remember older friends who were in action in Europe boasting of shooting surrendering Germans. Was it Sherman who said War is Hell?

Inadequate though it is, the Bob Dylan song, “God On Our Side” comes to mind. I remember in particular the 6ixth stanza, which read:

When the Second World War, Came to an end. We forgave the Germans, And we were friends. Though they murdered six million, In the ovens they fried. The Germans now too, Have God on their side.

For the entire lyrics of this lesser know Dylan song, Click Here.

Joan I too read the book account of Patton’s appearance among the newly POW’s cum grano sal. So I was not surprised at Quentin’s contrary report. Quentin’s story of his WW II experience is at the site Joan has already linked, Click Here. His account of his liberation and Patton’s visit summarized by Joan in her message #153 is near the end of the last Chapter entitled STALLAG VIIA, Click Here. Everyone is urged to read this chapter in connection with their reading of the “Waiting For Patton” Chapter.

Faith, your friend George’s experience of being placed on a forced march through the cold ice and snow sounds much like one of the German evacuations described in the book. Yet I would not put it past the Russians to stage a forced march of Western prisoners from one of their liberated camps. Such an operation would certainly have been consistent with their purpose of keeping the prisoners as hostage pending western reorganization of the satellite states.

Such an evacuation might well have served their purpose, yet I have the impression from the book that generally the Russians left Western POW.s pretty much on their own. The book speaks of thousands of POW’s wandering about Poland and other central European countries trying to make their way out generally pointing toward The Black Sea port of Odessa. David was this your exit route?

Faith I too read the stories of the hardship, suffering, and sacrifice of the prison camps as described in the book with abject horror, but when my eyes really tear-up is when I read the stories of the liberations. I suppose it is the release of the pent up emotions after reading of the horror that brings the tears.

The site that my cousin's son put up has been deleted and he will be working to replace it this summer. Too bad, as the site had a great deal to offer. So, my only link to Jerry Ryan's story is the one that I put up earlier. Sorry about that!

Ann, thank you for your effort in trying to locate your Cousin's story on the Web. I can appreciate the problem of keeping a personal Web Page available over long periods of time. There always comes the time when the owner needs to change ISP's which means removing his web pages and starting over at a new URL. I came close to doing this last winter when I contemplated a move to Earthlink. As It happened I found Earthlink did not measure up as well as it appeared it would, meaning Texasnet was better than I thought it was. So I stayed with Texasnet.

No one has yet mentioned the POW camp at Colditz Castle first mentioned in the book in the “Waiting for Patton” chapter. In that chapters the authors tell of its liberation by Patton’s troops noting that one particular group of prisoners had previously been evacuated. These were the so-called Promenente, or VIP prisoners. Included in this group almost all European were relatives of the Queen of England, Winston Churchill’s cousin and other assorted aristocrats and well-known individuals. As far as I can gather the only American was the son of the American Ambassador to the UK.

One of the books nominated for this discussion was the Henry Chancellor book “Colditz, Click Here. I read the last 100 pages of this book last month in the B&N store and ended up buying it and intend to finish it. I did not choose it for this discussion since no rank and file Americans seem to have been held there and it was limited to the experience of one prison camp rather than an over view that seemed necessary for our purpose.

The story of the British, Commonwealth, French and Polish POW’s at Colditz was a fascinating one as an example of the inmates running the asylum. They had a sophisticate POW intelligence/communication network, and actually built a glider supposedly to be used in an escape attempt from the castle walls. Twenty years later in the 1960’s they were still discovering the secret compartments wherein the POW’s concealed their tools and equipment from the Germans. I intend to read the whole book from scratch at my first opportunity.

In the “Waiting For Patton” chapter our authors simply describe the liberation of Colditz only noting the previous evacuation of the Prominentes by the Germans. Did you catch the significance of the Hitler/SS plan for the Prominente POW that the authors pick-up again in the “German Savior” chapter?

(Just dashing through, will be back this afternoon, but wanted to be sure you all see this announcement right away.)

Today Marlar posted the following information in the WWII Memories Resource discussion:

"I am amazed at how "few" folk know of the web site available to post names of WWII veterans. This is a site that will be used at the kiosk in D.C. at the National Memorial... All who died during the war are automatically listed thru the National Archives, but all others, (living and "past") need to be added by family/friends. Also civilian war "workers" need to be added. This can be done by going to www.wwiimemorial.com. We have added 90 plus names thus far in a project we have going to honor our "local" Greatest Generation here at our American Legion Post.... Hope all who see this, enter their loved ones/friends on their "place of honor"..."

When you get to the Memorial Site, then scroll down and click the link to Registry to find out how to go about registering....

I'm still working on finding the posts on, "Last Escape", but I note with interest the NEW book on Colditz. My introduction to the subject was publishedby Pan Books Ltd. in 1954 under the title "The Colditz Story" and written by Colditz prisoner, P. R. Reid. himself!

I can't find any of the navigational navigational options! on my "Last Escape" discussion site! Turn the Let loose the the Techies! Quentin

Quentin, can you see the post you just wrote on Colditz? What is the last post you can see? Directly below the box where your post appears, you should see two parallel lines. Between these two lines you should see the words "first" and "previous" - if you see them, know they are links to previous messages. Click "Previous" and see what happens.

Another option is to click the word "Outline" to read all the past posts....

Off to read about Colditz.

RossT here, had posted a couple of times before I got into the book, Have been able to spend a few hours in "The Last Escape" and am very impressed with the authors approach to the subject of the allied POWs last year or so in Euorpe. I've never read anything quite like its evenhanded way of using those POWs firsthand experiences and diaries interspersed with factual background and annoted referance. I thought I knew a lot about those marches but I admit I have learned much in just a few hours of reading. Those that chose this book for review made a good selection.

Joan asked when I learned about the deal made with the Russians to allow Stalag Luft 1 POWs to be flown out by the 8AF after they had captured that part of Germany. Sorry to say I can't remember exactly when or how I learned of the swap but it was several years after the war.

The white feather incident I related was not a common thing. It was devastating to the guy that received it though. I think the Dear John letters were more common than reported. Remember, most of us were young, kids actually, I enlisted at 18, commissoned as a pilot at 19, celebrated my 20 birthday over the D Day +2 beachheads and my 21st on the boat going home. I had a 2 week leave after graduation from pilot training, the only time home in 4 years of service. It would be asking a lot of anyone to remain a girlfriend, or fiancee. A wife would be another matter, It had to be dam hard to handle.

Concerning being a POW and being considered a coward, it happened, never to me but I know of a couple incidents where it happened to others. I think it is probably the mentality of the accuser. It seems there was those that thought war and battle ment victory or death or dishonor if captured.

There were internees that in some instances were classified as POWs. An interne is a combatant that somehow wound up in a neutral country. There were about a half dozen neutrals in Europe, Switzerland, Portugal, Denmark and others. Switzerland was one that received quite a few American Airmen that either after being shot down, escaped capture and made it on foot to Switzerland, or were shot up and managed to land or bail out over Switzerland.Swaps were arranged of Allied for German but in most cases the internees remained as guests of the host country for the remainder of the war. It was not unusual to hear comment that there was possibly some of those that made it to Switzerland did so deliberately to avoid further combat. I have a aquaintance that was a radio operator/gunner on a B24 out of England, was badly shot up by flack, Switzerland was the closest possibility for them, they made it, were interned, he and another crewmember escaped to the American embassy and were guided to France, picked up by American MPs and accused of deliberately landing in Switzerland. Nothing came of the charges but it was certainly not a story you would want your family to hear.

I had made a comment about women being with the Russian Army that swept through the North German area at the close of the war, I read yesterday Russia started drafting women in the last couple years of the war. 800,000 were drafted and 70% saw combat.

One closing question, we wore dog tags, our religion was stamped on our tags, C for Catholic, P for Protestant, J for Jew. I had read in the EX POW Organization Magazine that POWs that were identified as a Jew were immediately shipped to the extermination camps. Anyone have confirmation?

Regards RossT

Just getting caught up on the posts in this discussion.

Wow, what stories! As interesting and informative as the book. Harold, you have plenty of material in these posts to publish another book, if you could get all the posters to collaborate with you.

Joan, Thanks for the tip on locating the WWII Memorial list. I went to the site, and found neither my father (Navy Seabee), or my brother (Marines) on the list. I would have thought that the names of all enlisted and drafted individuals would have automatically been placed on the list. The government must have those names, don't they? (Rhetorical question, no need to answer, Joan.)

Harold, I agree with you. Despite all the suffering described, the most moving moments for me seem to be the liberations, and for the reason you gave.

Interesting, your comment about them finding little hiding places and compartments in the Colditz Stalag as late as 1960. My mind immediately went to the Pacific islands, and the discoveries of Japanese combatant holdouts as late as the 1960's.

Ross, Thanks for the reminder. We sometimes forget how young these men (boys?) were at the time. You were a pilot at 19?

Denmark wasn't a neutral in WWII, it was overrun and occupied by Germany during the blitzkrieg. You might have been thinking of Sweden which was a neutral. In Catch 22, pilots fantisized about going on a mission out of Italy, and landing in Sweden. Then the war would be over for them.

Ross, your story about the dogtags (with J for Jew),and what happens to those captured by the NAZIs is chilling. I hope your research proves it to be false.

Rich

German Treatment of Jewish POW’s. Ross you raise a good question on a subject that our authors did not address in the book. I recall no special reference to any special treatment of western Jewish POW’s in the book and there is no reference in the index. Also I did not find any detailed information from Web resources except for the following:

Stalag Luft 7a: http://www.b24.net/pow/stalag7.htm Under the paragraph headed “Religion” there is the following comment concerning Jewish POW’s at Stalag Luft 7A:

“Jews were for a time segregated in separate barracks. Otherwise they were not discriminated against. Nor were they offered any religious services. Conditions on kommandos varied. A few were visited by PW chaplains or attended local services, but most had no opportunity for religious observances. (I (HHA) interpret the last sentence to mean visits by Christian chaplains or they could attend Christian service. I really doubt there was any local German Jewish service at that time for anyone, German or POW).

The other Stalag Luft camps linked in the left frame make no reference to Jewish prisoners or Jewish chaplains or church services for them. Several of these links do mention the Religious services and Chaplains available for Catholic and Protestant POW”S but are silent regarding services for Jewish ones. I interpret this silence to mean it was non-existant.

Based on the Stalag Luft 7A source apparently there was no blanket German policy of sending western Jewish POW’s to the extermination camps. However there was no Jewish religious service available for them and knowing full well the German Nazi/SS mentality of the day there must have been instances where the worst happened. The special position of German POW’s should be studied and should have been addressed in the book. Perhaps Dave and Quentin can add their comment on the particular problem of Jewish POW’s they may have known?

As Rich pointed out, Denmark was invaded by Germany in early April 1940 and occupied by Germany until the end of the War. Somehow it did maintain an unique position in its relations to the German occupiers not enjoyed by other German occupied countries. This stems from the fact that the Danish government instead of fleeing to exile in England remained with some power during the occupation. When news was leaked of German plans to take Danish Jews in mass to the extermination sites, there were universal protests including positive protests by King Christian X followed by organized action to save Danish Jews. The result was a successful evacuation of almost all of Denmark's 7,500 Jews to neutral Sweden. As a result it is said that no more than 100 Danish Jews ended in the holocaust.

A Google search on the string “Rescue of Danish Jews“ yields many hits including this short paragraph summary: http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/righteous/bycountry/denmark.html

Ross: I don't know about the Army, but my Navy dog tags, which I still have, were stamped H for Hebrew not J. I served in the Pacific, where Japanese treated all American military prisioners the same way -- miserably. Fortunately I was never captured.

I recently saw a PBS special about U.S. soldiers captured in the Battle of the Bulge, where Jewish soldiers were singled out by the Germans and sent to slave labor camps. Anyone remember that?

Hi Arnold. Thanks for attaching the report on the Danes helping its Jewish population escape the Nazis. The Danes belong in the Garden of the Righteous. They also had a very active anti-Nazi underground. I recently read a novel about Denmark during the war. It's called The Flight of the Gypse Moth (I think)

Mort Kail

Mort: the PBS film you are referring to was BERGA: SOLDIERS OF ANOTHER WAR. I found these sites through a Google search. They certainly document the charge that Germany sent some 350 American Jewish POW’s captured during the Battle of the Bulge to a a satellite Camp of the Buchenwald concentration camp. Some of these only had the appearance of being Jewish or had Jewish sounding names. Though the length of their confinement was only 5 months after an on-foot evacuation many had died or were shot when they were unable to continue the march. This certainly is a well documents instance where at least 350 US POW’s became a part of the holocaust.

The two links given below provide more detail. The second link gives the date of the PBS broadcast as May 28th. I am pretty sure this was May 28 2003, but I suspect a DVD or Tape would be available from PBS

http://www.gpifilms.com/berga.html

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/berga/about_description.html

Thanks for correcting me on Denmark I was thinking of Sweden--I should be more careful. As I typed I should have checked for accuracy before I sent the post. Sorry. The dog tag religious stamping was probably universal, H for Hebrew as you stated Mort, Thanks. Rich, there were plenty of 18 year olds in cadet training, very few were older than their early 20s, 25 was considered an OLD MAN. Most Squadron and Group Commanders were still in their 20s. It was a young mans air war. I think the age factor contributed to the survival of many of those marchers in the book. I enlisted at 18, June 8, 42 enter the service as a qualified cadet shortly after, Graduated Nov 43, class of 43J, Aloe Field, Victoria, Tx, assigned my Squadron in England April 44, POW Aug 44, boat ride home June 45, discharged mid 46.

Harold, you certainly are prompt in your research, thanks for the response on the Jewish POW question I raised and the Denmark-Sweden issue, will be checking the sites you listed. More later, thanks all, regards RossT

Harold, Rich

In my memoir "Stalag VII A" I speak of two Jewish POWs who had escaped Europe and joined the British Army and were captured in Greece. They were treated in exactrly the same way as all other POWs, according to the Geneva Convention rules.

Among the 7500 Americans in Stalag Luft 3 there must have been a substantial number of Jewish officers. I rember no stories of isolation of these men. I do recall, however, that at the time I was captured, that the fact thst I was not circumcised was commented upon.

Some stories in the EX-POW Bulletin tend to contain exaggerations.

Quentin

I think the Jewish POW’s issue should have been discussed in the Book. The fact that it was never really raised leads me to as, Why? Was it just that it did not come up in the interviews with the dozens/hundreds of ex-POW’s the Author’s primary source for the information given in the book? Is this not a valid criticism of the writing?

PBS certainly seems to have found a source in which U.S Jewish prisoners captured in the Battle of the Bulge were singled out for transfer to the Concentration Camp system. On the other hand the experience of Quentin given in his message #170 gives two examples of British Jewish POW’s who were treated no different from Christians or others. Moreover these two it would seem would be to the Germans, Jews particularly deserving of persecution since they were European Jews who had escaped to England and joined the British Army to fight the Germans.

Do any of you see a particular difference distinguishing the circumstance of the POW’s captured in the Battle of the Bulge from the circumstance of the POW already in the Prison Camp system?

Ross you and I think others have emphasized that the WW II air war was a young mans game. I remember a wartime news reel covering a U.S fighter squadron in France after D’ day in which the squadron commander a bird Colonel was like 23 years old. Did you know any that young? I have the idea from the news media that that is not the situation today with many active 35 plus life career-pilots even over 40 flying our fighter/bomber jets.

I graduated from high school in May 1944. I was certainly not pilot or even other flight crew material even if the services had been still actively searching for such trainees. My options were to wait until I was 18 and be drafted in the Army or volunteer while still 17 for the Navy. I choose the latter and after completing boot camp and Electrician Mate school, I ended up in the Pacific theater just as the war was ending

I am particularly interested in the Battle of the Bulge since my brother Milton Hannigan was there. He and another soldier (they were part of an anti aircraft unit) hid in the root cellar of a Belguim farm family. He always talked of going back to see if he could find them. It was such a brave thing for them to do since had my brother been discovered all would have been executed.

It was interesting to read about the uncircumized being suspect. All of my five brothers were born at home and none were circumsized ..the reason I know that because my oldest brother had the surgery when he was an adult and had some complications. I asked my mother what it was all about and she explained it to me.

All three of my older brothers returned safely from the war..one was in India , the one in the Army and one who served on Destroyer escort duty in the Coast Guard. Later my two younger brothers served in Vietnam and my husband was in the Phillipines in WWII became a pilot after using the GI bill for his education and remained on active duty until he retired at 30 years.

We were in Europe from 53 -57 and there were still many places off limits due to unexploded bombs and ruins. Mainz was one of the German Cities that were carpet bombed ..at least I think so as we stood on a bridge overlooking the complete devastation of that city. My mind sometimes plays tricks on me...all of my memories seem to be of another place,another time and another person. Strange.

All of my reading and all of the posts here over whelm me. That the human spirit can survive so much is just too much .. I am at a loss for words and in a constant state of sorrow and gratefulness for all who served.

I also want to research the bit about the memorial ...I think my brothers names should be there, especially my brother Milton who was affected by his service ...after he returned he always sat curled in what I felt was a fox hole position and from my mother;s observation slept in a fetal postition afterwards. They were young men ...and we forget that ...since they survived to be old men ...anna

Anna, Re the Battle of the Bulge and POWs, here is a clear case of war crimes being commited against American POW's. The massacre of 80 recently captured American POWs near the village of Malmedy was an atrocity of major proportions.

Lt Col Joachim Peiper, one of the key commanders during the Battle of the Bulge, gave the order to kill the American POWs.

He was convicted after the war by a war crimes tribunal, and sentenced to death along with 12 others involved in the massacre. Their sentences were later reduced to life in prison, because there was some question about force being used during their interrogation to elicit confessions.

Peiper was actually released from prison in 1956, but he was so disgraced in his country, he moved to a small village in France.

On Bastielle Day, July 14 1976, a group of masked Frenchmen fire-bombed Peiper's house, killing him.

At the time of his death, he was supposedly in the process of writing a book giving his side of the story.

Rich

Hi Annafair; thank you for the interesting story concerning your family in WW II and your Brother who was involved in the Battle of the Bulge. This battle was in the West at any rate Hitler’s last grasp at salvaging a victory. Click Here for an summary account of the battle.

I note that two of Hitler’s most loyal generals were involved on the German side. These were Field Marshall Walther Model and General Josef"Sepp"Dietrich. The latter General was SS, an early Nazi and a Hitler favorite. I think the loyalty of these and other Generals involved in the Battle of the Bulge explains both the execution of American POW’s and the sending of Jewish POW’s to the Concentration camps rather than to the POW camps. Many of the best German divisions involved in the December offensive strike were SS units all still fanatic Nazis,

This was my point in yesterday’s question relative to differences in the circumstances of the Battle of the Bulge prisoners and the POW’s held in the POW camps. I think the big difference was the B of B prisoners who were executed had the misfortune of falling into the hands of the SS while the camp POW remained guarded by Wehrmacht units many of whose ranks were primarily old WW I veterans recently disillusioned by the obvious loss of the war.

Thank you Rich for your research identifying the commander of the SS Unit involved in the executions as SS LT Col Joachim Peiper. This has leaded me to an interesting web site describing the post war trial of SS Geneeral Stepp Dietrich, Lt Col Peiper and a total of 77 former SS men involved in the executions, Click Here.

Frankly in my memory I remembered Dietrich as a Suicide in the Berlin Bunker at the end of the war. Apparently my memory was wrong, as he is listed as a defendant in this trial. To have been under the U.S. Military Justice system it was a curious legal procedure since all of the defendants were presumed guilty meaning the prosecution did not have to prove guilt leaving the burden of proof on each defendant to prove his innocence. Also some defendants were not permitted to testify in their defense. Not exactly the typical American Criminal trial.

All of the defendants were found guilty with 44 sentenced to hang and the remainder given life terms in prison. As It happened after an appeal process all of the death sentences were commuted to life in prison and by the late 1950’ all were free men. Rich your report of the Bastielie Day lynching of Peiper supports the old adage, ”the postman always rings twice.”

I've just finished reading the chapter - "A German Savior?" I got very upset in reading of Berger's Nuremburg trial after the war! The question mark after the title is there for a good reason. This "savior?" claimed that during the his months as General in charge of the POW's - he made sure the prisoners received adequate food, the Red Cross packages, medical attention. He also claimed to have saved some 35,000 troops from execution - and claimed that he was the one responsible for the safe return of the Prominente of Colditz. -This may have happened in an attempt to save his skin, since he knew the war was coming to an end. How many of his claims were true? I was upset to learn that Berger served only SIX years for his crimes against humanity - for his role in PLANNING the "final solution" - the SS operation to exterminate the Jews. Six years! His sentence was reduced from 25 years to six on the basis of his claims (largely unsubstantiated) for the work he did at the end of the war to assist the POWs. Does anyone remember of the Nuremburg trials? From everything I've read, the POWs never received medical relief or food under Berger.

Anna, you brought up the Battle of the Bulge...and your brother hiding to avoid capture. Ross, I've been thinking about what you said about how "war and battle meant victory or death or dishoner if captured" to some people. I can see that mind-set in the Russians, the Germans - and especially the Japanese. But sure can't see Americans - or Brits feeling this way about their loved ones.

Germany was in such chaos at the end...I imagine that FEAR was great among the POWs...what would the German's do with these problematic prisoners? Execution must have been a constant fear. We're told in the book that the Germans had no plans, no instructions - but the POWs didn't know that - or did they? Harold, I agree, the prisoners captured following the Battle of the Bulge by the SS (Berger's SS) were in greater danger of retaliation. The authors tell us that the Germans were considering ignoring the Geneva Convention at this point, as they knew the war was over....

Can we talk about the bombing of Dresden and why we thought that was necessary at the time? I can see a furious fuhrer, and vengeful guards after that.

Rich, I don't have an answer about why the WWII Memorial is asking Vets and their families to check the listings for their loved ones. You'd think they could have procured these names from the government. Apparently they didn't - Anna, you'd better check and submit your brothers' names if not included.

Quentin, I'm smiling at your comment that the stories in the EX_POW Bulletin tend to contain exaggerations. Can you expand on that?

Joan and all; Chapter 13, “A German Savior” seems intended by the authors as the climax chapter and it casts the SS General Gottlob Berger in the strange role of saving POW lives. Though the casting of an SS General in such a role might seem ridiculous, the authors do give an argument while falling short of proving him innocent do seem creditable support for mitigation of his punishment.

Remember Hitler placed full responsibility for control of POW’s in the SS and Himmler in the summer of 1944. At that time Himmler assigned near full responsibility for SS administration of the POW camps to one of his most trusted subordinates, Berger.

The authors say the Berger did not relish this position He knew that if he wanted to survive the War he had to steer a straight course between the wrath of Hitler and the wrath of post war allied retribution. The result was that the SS never attempted to take over the day-to-day running of the camps. The Officers and personnel in actual charge remained the Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe. Himmler too planned to survive the war causing him to turn a blind eye at Berger’s apparent neglect of duty.

On April 28th after Hitler had found out of Himmler’s disloyalty, he summoned Berger to the bunker where in a rage he ordered him to immediately leave the bunker and execute all of the Prominente POWS’s; “shoot them all,” Hitler screamed to Burger his face purple in rage. Berger immediately left the Bunker after expropriating Himmler’s personal plane and next appeared among the Promente POW’s in Bavaria. Our authors note the fact of Berger’s quick appearance among the Prominente POW as evidence of the truth of Berger’s account of Hitler’s orders. But instead of executing them Berger fed them and allayed their fears telling them they would be free when the Americans arrived the next days.

Not for a moment do I think Berger’s motive was to save the POW’s; his motive was first and foremost to save his skin for a post war existence. To this end he did not do what Hitler expected of him; not only did he not shoot the Prominente POW’s as he was ordered to do, but by not bring in SS personnel to run the camps doubtlessly he saved thousands of Western POW’s most certainly those who were Jewish who would certainly have been sent to the extermination camps.

Did Berger get more mitigation from this 25 year prison sentence than he deserved. As I understand it he was paroled as a free man by 1958 after serving less than 13 years dating back to the end of the war. I guess I am inclined to answer, yes he did get more than the deserved. The lesser main line Nuremberg defendants including the non-SS ones like Albert Speer and Karl Donitz were required to serve every day of their sentences. The Russians were adamant against any early paroles. Also the court trying Berger had already considered the POW brownie points in setting his punishment at 25 years. It probably saved him from the gallows. Nonetheless I am convinced that many POW’s survived the war because of his not doing what Hitler fully intended him to do.

What is your judgment on Berger?

Harold, What more is there to say about Berger? You have it summed up nicely. He was a pragmatic. Berger saw the way the winds were blowing, and tried the best to assure his future. If many Allied POWs were saved by Berger's "triangulation," then thank you General Berger.

Yes, Speer and Donitz served out their complete sentences, thanks in part to the fact that Spandau prison was jointly managed by the Allied powers including the Soviet Union. How about Rudolph Hess? He was sentenced to life in Spandau, and he was kept there until he died. He was the only prisoner in the fortress for decades.

I think that the West's unwritten practice of letting imprisoned Nazis out of prison before their full sentence was spent probably served to reenforce Stalin's suspicions that, under the skin, all westerners were fascists.

Rich

I just want to mention that Ella Gibbons and I, plan to lead a discussion of Margaret MacMillam's "Paris 1919" beginning July 15th. This is the story of the Peace Conference held in Paris in 1919 to formally end WW I, and arguably plant the seeds that in just two decades resulted in the replay that we know today as WW II.

All of you are invited to join us in this discussion. Click Here for information on the book and sign-in.

Berger is said to have told American investigators that Eva Braun learned Hitler was going to order that 35,000 American POW’s be taken to the mountains of Bavaria and held there pending the negotiation of a satisfactory agreement protecting the top Nazi leadership. If such agreement was not forthcoming they were to be shot. Eva Braun learned of this plan and decided that the best chance to save these American lives was to have Berger the officer to receive the order since she knew Berger had opposed the plan and could stall until the war was over with out the executions. Accordingly she had the order typed by the bunker secretaries and sent to Hitler with other routine work. Hitler signed it and Berger received it.

The authors completely discount the existence of this plan. They mention the Trevor-Roper conclusion that post war Berger testimony should not be believed in the absence of collaborating evidence. There is no collaborating evidence in this case as there is support of the order to execute the Prominentes. There the collaborating evidence is Berger’s immediate flight to Bavaria where he visited the Prominentes and in understandable disobedience of the direct order fed them rather than executing them.

Also I might add that the Idea that Eva Braun would want to save American POW’s seems ridiculous. I recall no attempt by her to save her Sister’s husband. Gurf Fegelein, the SS officer who was Himmler’s liaisons man at Hitler’s headquarters. After Hitler learned of Himmlers disloyalty and Fegelein's attempt to flee the bunker, he was dragged up to ground level and shot without a recorded murmur from Eva.

Eva seems to have had no official function in the bunker. Her appearance was her idea, not Hitler’s, though I believe he was glad to have her present. In the Bunker she seems to have socialized with the secretaries, and on one occasion she and the secretaries had tea together with Hitler after which Hitler remarked that his prospects for winning the war would be better if his Generals had been as devoted as his women. The authors remarked that Berger said Eva briefed him on Hitler’s current mood while he was waiting for an appointment. I remember reading others, probably Albert Speer making a similar comment. In any case I don’t see Eva lifting a finger to save American POW lives.

Joan -- This is belated, but thanks for your lucid instructions for finding prior posts. You've saved me a lot of frustration!

I've been a lLife Member of the AXPOW since right after the war and found it most helpful. For example in the June issue of their Bulletin will be a call for other prisoners at BUDAPEST. I'm determined to get to the bottom of that one! Also, their Volunteer Service Officer Marion Rippee, is helping me get proper Service Connection for disabilities incurred during that period. Recollections from the war printed in the Bulletin sometimes paint an extreme picture.--Take another look at my introductory note to "The March" memoir

Quentin

Quentin,

Where do I look to find your introductory note to The March memoir.

I scrolled back, but I can't seem to find it. Do you have a "posting number" for that post? You find the "posting number" on the top, right next to the time and date. This posting of mine should be #181.

Rich

Rich, I'm going to check the link to Quentin's Memoirs posted earlier in this discussion to see if that's where we can find his introductory note on Quentin's Memories...hang on. Yes, if you click the link you will see a list of titles...click March Memoir. (found it back in post #153)

"Each prisoner remembers his differently, very differently!! Individuals often cannot even agree on the route, let alone the temperature, the weather, the behavior of the goons, the German civilians, or one's fellow kriegies. As with everything else in these memoirs I will fish from the bits that still reside in my head, which may or may not be what happened!"

Harold, you asked how we reacted to Berger's judgment. I guess you already know mine. This man helped with the design and planning of the death chambers which "exterminated" millions of Jews. At his War Trial he managed to convince his judges that he "saved" thousands of US soldiers, claiming that they were intended to suffer the same fate as the concentration camp prisoners (the extermination which he had planned). Why? Why not "save" the concentration camp victims too? They believed his good heart and sentenced him to 25 years rather than execute him. OK, let him serve out the 25 years. Instead, they reduced it to 10 and then to 6 and he was released - a free man in 1951.

Who knew about what was going on in those concentration camps - and when? I'm going to find some posts from the Good War discussion in which participants posted that it was known before the war was over, the camps were liberated and the terrible truth revealed. Here is Britta's account - Britta lived in Dresden - survived the bombing! And again a statement that Roosevelt knew exactly what was going on in the camps.

But what I want to know - did the POWs know about what was going on? It sounds like they did. Did you read of the POWs who were afraid to take the delousing showers - would only go in 12 at a time - and wait till 12 clean guys came out before going in? Sounds as if they knew, doesn't it?

I'll agree - the Eva Braun story sounds like another of Berger's concoctions. It's impossible to believe that Eva would have gone out of her way to save the 35,000 POWs - hostages intended to be Hitler's bargaining powere to protect the top leadership (including herself) - doesn't it? Who believed him? Apparently the Nuremburg judges did.

In my case I don’t think I knew of it until after I was discharged from the Navy a full year after the European War ended, I went into the Navy in October 1944 and from that time until June 1945 I was at navy training stations in California and Mississippi. After that I went to the Pacific. There I was not exposed to much news only headline bulletin broadcasts over a camp loud speaker systems. Actually I suspect there was very little of no news coverage of these particular tragic subject. After the war I returned to reading Life Magazine and the news and horrific pictures were frequent.

Did Roosevelt Know? Did Churchill Know? And how about Pius XII? He to too has been criticized for his silence. I suspect that Roosevelt and Churchill with their sophisticated intelligence systems knew. But what could they do about it that they were not doing to bring a German defeat as quickly as they could? They were waging all out war for that purpose. As for the Pope there are many Web sites both defending him for what positive acts he did to protect Jews from being transported to the camps and condemning him for not doing more and not being effective enough.

As for Berger, I can’t argue much with Joan’s conclusion. I see him as what we call in Texas, a very successful jail house lawyer who played his POW card in the court to save his neck from the gallows, and then a few years later used the same currency a second time to obtain a parole that left him a free man. Unfortunately in his case the postman did not ring a second time.

Quentin I too was not sure exactly which link you were speaking when you referred to your introductory note to The March memoir. If possible just copy in a post the URL address (http://www.------.--/--- what ever it is).

Quenton, I read your intro to the March segment, and a couple of your comments got my attention. The first was that every camp had it's "march." That's important. Reading the book, I still had in the back of my mind that these "long march" stories were the exception, and most Allied POW's were put into one camp and stayed there for the duration. Not so.

The other notable statement in your intro was about different POW's having different recollections about the same march. This foggyness of recollection is only going to get worse as the memory of those days fade deeper into the past. It's good to see so much activity, right now, collecting soldiers' recollections of the experience.

Joan, The story that you cited about the showers struck me the same way when I read it. The Germans told the POW's go into a certain building to take a shower. The POW's refused to go in en masse. They would go in, twelve at a time, but the second twelve would not go in until the first twelve came back out. What did the POW's know about taking showers that made them suspicious of the Germans?

Harold, I agree with you about the Eva Braun story. It is not believeble. Everything that I have read about Eva Braun depicts her as what we would now call a self-absorbed "dittz." To pull off something as sophisticated as what Berger suggested is way out of her character and mental capacity. Having said that, I always keep in mind the quote: "History is the story of events as written by the winning side." Maybe Eva Braun was not as the historians now depict her.

I'm off, now, to read Britta's account of the Dresden bombing.

Rich

This book describes in detail the German evacuation of about ½ dozen POW Camps during the winter of 1944-45. The POW’s involved in each of these mostly on-foot treks experienced many life-endangering hardships leading to illness and many deaths. Each of the separate evacuations involved many common hardship experiences with only a change of the names involved; yet each also involved its own unique problems. Because of the repetitious character of these stories, I elected to discuss this book through the key issues common to them all, rather than on a chapter-by-chapter basis.

Though I think this has worked out well, perhaps a closer look at one of these evacuations would be desirable. SO LET’S DISCUSS THE FALLINGBOSTEL EVACUATION. In the book this is covered in Chapters 11 and 12. What problems facing this evacuation were commonly experienced by the earlier evacuations? What major problem of earlier evaluations was less important here? What new dangerous problem was encountered here? Did Montgomery’s Army advancing through this area handle the liberation better, worst, or about the same as Patton’s army in the south?

Between today and through next Tuesday, May 25th, anyone is welcome to bring up the discussion of any other issue raised in Chapters 1 through 13. Then beginning Wednesday, May 26th we can begin the concluding Chapters, 14, 15 and the Epilog. Since this is the holiday weekend we will leave the board open for final concluding comments from anyone through Wednesday, June 2nd after which the discussion will be achieved in the usual manner.

Harold, I'm sorry to be changing the subject, but I have to make a clarification to my last post. I said that I was off to read Britta's account of Dresden's bombing. I was wrong. I misread Joan's reference to Britta. Joan mentioned that Britta had lived in Dresden. The story was not an account of the bombing.

Britta's story, however, is one of the most moving first person narratives about one individual's experience in the war that I have ever read. I strongly recommend to everyone participating in this discussion, or just reading along with us to click onto the "Brita's account" site highlighted in green and found in Joan's post #182.

Rich

Rich my impression from the book was that the POW evacuations from the various Stalags were a rather common POW experience though not necessarily a universal one. It seems that as soon as a Stalag was in danger of being overrun, an evacuation was ordered. In some cases POW in earlier evacuations became involved in later evacuation. An example of this is Dixie Deans who figured in the Chapter one evacuation and again in the Fallingbostel evacuation in the last month of the War.

My interpretation of Joan’s comment on the reluctance of the POW’s to use the delousing shower was that they suspected it to be an extermination chamber indicating that they had knowledge of the existence of such mass killing devices elsewhere. I agree that this might be interpreted that the POW’s may have acquired this knowledge. Also there are many reports in the book where POW’s had heard at least rumors they might all be shot so the fact that they feared the shower was an extermination device might also have evolved in their minds without any specific knowledge of the use elsewhere.

I’m now off for my afternoon work at the ITC but will return this evening.

The fact that the POWS had heard what was going on in the concentration camps only emphasizes the stress these men must have been under. The marches were excruciating but the psychological fear of going into one of the camps may have been greater. Wouldn't it have been an easy solution for the Germans to simply march them into the gas chambers? The POWs suspected all along that they were problematic for the Germans. I can see where the POWs marching all over the German countryside, in close proximity to the concentration camps would have heard stories of the camps before others.

Rich, Britta was a welcome addition to our discussion of Studs Terkel's Book, The Good War - if you have time someday, you might want to read through some of those posts - front-row, eye-witness accounts. You can find that discussion on SN's World War II Memories menu...let me know if you have trouble finding it?

Britta DID give an account of the bombing in Dresden, which has been preserved in the heading of the "Good War" discussion...I'll post the link to her account here -
Stories from "Over There"

OK, Harold, will go back and reread "The Hell of Fallingbostel"...See you later!

On pages 397 to 400 I found John Parsons story to almost totally match what George, my friend told me about his return from German POW camps. After the march, the liberation, the months in prison had left him at about 80 lbs. So he and some others were flown to a French port(Le Havre) and there he was examined and put on a hospital sick list then directly he was on a ship for home. He too told stories of his emotional return to the US. So glad I found confirmation in a lot of points on his and Betty's story as I had remembered it. My problem was I did not remember the names of places very well until I read this book and of course here was all the information. How very glad I am to have read this though it has been very emotional for me.

My friend was from Pennsylvania and he returned there, and on leave he married his high school sweetheart Betty. Then his father insisted he go to a vet hospital. Eventually they went to Denver to live and then we met them at Kokomo Co. where George went to work for my husband on his contract crew in the mine there. We last heard from him that he was back in Ledbetter hospital in Denver. I think that is the name of the Vet hospital there. Anyway I wish I were in touch with them again. Faith

As some of you may know by previous posts I was a child in England when WW2 started and VE day was my 14th birthday in 1945...we were just living from day to day. No-one had a clue as to what "normal" was. By the same token,I really do not remember when we found out about camps and so on. (no TV is those days)I found out more when I was married to my Polish husband and met his friends (I was pregnant) one wife had been a victim of"scientific"experiments & could not have children..many of the Polish community I met in England & USA had similar stories.My children had friends whose parents had gone through WW2 also. Another fact I did not know..the Poles, although they had fought with the Allies, were not allowed to participate in the Victory Parade in London after WW2..because they were now Communists!! And who put them there? Roosevelt, Churchill & Stalin at Yalta. Colkot

Colkot, the years following the end of the war must have been terribly drab years in the UK. They had lost so much, and 10 years after the war the Germans had probably recovered more than they. Do you remember the first post war Olympic games held in London in 1948? You too appear not to have realized the extent of the genocide of the holocaust until the War was over.

Faith I am not surprised that your friends George had a similar repatriation experience to one of the POW's in the Book. I will offer further comment on other examples of this type of bureaucratic delay and bungling next Wednesday when we begin the close with the concluding chapters, 14,15 and the Epilog.

Click Here for a Web summary report on the Bombing of Dresden in February 1945. Indeed it has to rank as one of the greatest terror events of all times. There were at least 35,000 dead, and perhaps as many as 100.000. Read some if the accounts by participating air crews and survivors published on the link.

The realization of the extent of the terror seems to have had considerable effect on the allied Governments including Winston Churchill and the principals involved including Bomber Command Air Marshal Arthur Harris (Bomber Harris) who came under considerable criticism. Though it did not end allied bombing raids on German cities, it did publicize the terror of such raids, and Bomber Harris at the end of the war did not receive the customary customary peerage titles granted other top commanders in the Army, Royal Navy and RAF.

CNN presents Forgotten Soldiers of WW2 "Warsaw Rising: the Forgotten Soldiers of WW2" tells the story of Polish resistance & its 63-day battle against the Nazis, a battle foughtwhile the Western world celebrated the successful Allied landings at Normandy. Through interviews with survivors & footage filmed by the Underground Army, CNN Presents offers an unflinching look at how a country known as the "first ally" was abandoned in its hour of need.Airs Sunday June 6 at 8pm & 11pm (ET) in conjunction with a special edition of "People in the News" featuring four U.S. veterans who lived through the D-Day landing. Re-airs Saturday June 12 at 8pm & 11pm (ET)

I could copy the rest of the release BUT the core of it is the Uprising gave the Poles a chance at freedom andthe hope that the Allies would come to their aid. Unfortunately Roosevelt & Churchill had struck a deal with Stalin ceding control of Eastern Europe for help fighting Germans. In the end Nazis slaughtered the Resistance and razed Warsaw, displacing people.Stalin's Army sitting on the other side of the Vistula finished the job,sending survivors to Soviet Prisons. To Allies "embarrassment" Soviets "inconvenience" No invitation by Allies to any Post Victory Parades. No official monument in Warsaw until 1989.

It seems to me that with our book discussion we have certainly opened Pandora's box.. Regards to all Colkot

My husband and I were in Reno in 1942/43 he in University. Ou r landlord was a Austrian/Jewish immigrant and had been here since the middle thirties. He was about 60 at that time and was in constant contact with the family he left in Austria.

He told us that the Nazi Party would successfully kill or deport all the German people of Jewish religion. we could not believe any humans would have such an agenda. He reminded us of other 'holocausts' though we were not using that word yet. Mr. Myers and his wife were lovely people and we visited them again after 1947 when we were moving home again and he and my husband talked about the things that had happened to his family far into the evening. I was just twenty years old but felt I had already lived a life time. Faith

At this stage in the book, I had to resist the natural inclination to say to myself, "This is repetitious. Didn't I just read about some Stalag or other with its occupants suffering under similar conditions?" I had to remind myself that this is real. It's not a novel or Hollywood movie. These are real people to whom this happened; my relatives, my neighbors.

Fallingbostel appeared to be the final collection point for most of the "marchers" of the earlier chapters, a point approximately equidistant from the Russian, British, and American lines. It held over 100,000 POWs, many of whom were subsisting on not much more than potato peelings.

Recollections of the Fallingbostel chapter are, to me, more "snapshots" rather than stories.

Dixie Deans ordering a respectful Attention! About face! to his men when the Germans paraded the naked Polish women by them.

Captured Regimental Sergeant Major John Lord being marched into the camp along with some of his men. In the words of Ron Mogg one of the POW's watching: "We did not cheer. We came instinctively to attention, and John Lord, noticing our two medical officers standing with us, gave his party "eyes right" and snapped them to a salute which would not have been out of place at Pirbright or Caterham. This was the sort of show England could really put on. None of us would have missed seeing it. The impression it made on the Germans was incredible."

Constant streams of Allied planes flying over toward German targets.

The incredible story of Dean's trip to Lubek including lunch at a downtown German pub.

"Wanted" signs around the camp showing pictures of Monty, as a commentary on his cautiousness and slow progress.

The gallows humor joke about the Germans disposing of all of them and "going up the chimney".

Radio instructions from London and Paris to "stay put."

More later.

Rich

Rich, you are right that there is the element of repetition in each of the evacuation marches. This stems from the fact that the men involved in each of them faced many of the same problems and hardships. You are also correct that each was also different in the way the problems applied and most certainly the men were generally different. Other participants here in their messages have mentioned this repetition and at least one said he returned the book and abandoned the discussion for that reason. It is the reason why I planned the discussion as a random issue-by-issue discussion rather than chapter-by-chapter.

Regarding the Fallingbostel camp as being the final destination of many of the preceding marches, that is my interpretation also. Also this was the last evacuation covered in the book coming at a time when Germany approached its end. Since it came later after the worst of winter had ended the men were spared the exposure to the extreme cold, ice, and snow that caused so much suffering during the winter marches. Also as I understand it the Germans seemed to hesitate in ordering the evacuation. Apparently the British Indian and other colonial POW’s never left, and other columns of British, Canadian Australian and U.S. prisoners were ordered to return after they had departed. Didn’t the book say when they arrived back at Fallingbostel, they found there had been a large number of new arrivals from elsewhere and they did not have sufficient available space?

It was the British Group with their prisoner leader RAF Sergeant Deans that was not recalled. They continued the march much exposed to the new great danger from being in the path of an advancing British army with a desperate German force dug in for a stand. . For this reason this group were much more exposed to actual battlefield dangers including friendly fire. In fact there was one extended air attack from RAF fighter that left some 60 of the POW’s dead. While the earlier winter evacuations were exposed to danger of Allied Air attacks I don’t recall of any of such consequence actually happening. The Dean Column was lucky as in the end it seems in many cases the German guards surrendered to the POW’s before the liberating troops arrived and in other cases the guards just left the prisoners on their own to await liberation.

Regarding Montgomery he was cautious after the September 1944 Market Garden defeat. This was a bold plan to put a spearhead across the lower Rhine. Had it of been successful the war in Europe might have been over by Xmas, but bad luck had several British airborne divisions drop in a forest where by chance a crack SS division was on R&R leave. They were well positioned for an immediate defense. British losses were high and the chance of an early war ending was lost. The book in several places mentions newly arrived British POW’s after that September fiasco as it also mentions newly arriving American POW’s after the Battle of the Bulge in December.

Faith thank you for reminding us that early on the Nazi party under Hitler exploited anti Semitism as a means to gain power in Germany . Click Here for a short Web account of the Crystal Night event in which Hitler in 1938 turned his black shirt SA (not SS) Storm Troopers loose to wreck Jewish shops and harass them from their homes. It was after this event that Jews were first sent to concentration camps. I am sure that soon after that that your Austrian emigrant friend and most German Jews knew what most Americans did not realize (or did not want to realize) until after the war, that Hitler’s final goal was indeed a most evil one.

And a question for Everyone! Is there a National WW I Memorial on the Mall in DC?

Thank you Calkot for your comment on the Warsaw Uprising during August and September of 1944. Click Here for a brief web account of the event. At the time Russian forces were in striking distance and a well planned effort by them could have been successful. But they turned a deaf ear and would not even permit western allies to use Russian air fields to drop arms to the underground. Allied airdrops were ineffective and the rebellion was suppressed.

And everyone Click Here for 42 pictures of the end of the war In Germany. These include pictures of Germany in defeat, surrender ceremonies, victory celebrations in New York, London, Paris, and elsewhere, and pictures of US Troops arriving home in the U.S.

Harold Have made it through that Chapter. I admit I read several chapters more than once. Let me backup to earlier posts.

I had a recollection I knew the Germans had isolated the Jewish Prisoners at Barth in the latter months of the war but could'nt pin down the details. www.merkki.com/kuptsowaaron.htm will confirm this as having happened early Feb 45, all Jewish POWs were taken from thier assigned barrackes to an isolated barrack in the oldest compound and remained there till the end. The story of Aaron Kuptsow not only relates the isolation but points to his having been ordered to throw his dog tags away if shot down to avoid being identified as Jewish, which he did, however they were recovered and returned to him.

This order to despose of their tags was news to me , I have no recall of hearing or reading of this during or following the war. Its obvious the Commanders that put out that directive had an awareness of the threat to the Jewish captured personel.

In the case of all POWs at Barth, unlike the horror of those reported marches, we stayed put, the Commander Col. Zemke refused the German order to march out, we were released by the Russions and eventually flown out. I think all of us at Barth can thank God for the good luck of not being a part of those marches. Those Jewish POWs that were isolated from the general population are also very lucky the orders were not followed through to transport them to an extermination camp. Why else would they have been isolated ? Or at least they were collected in a controled area that could have them immediately available to the SS if they chose.

After liberation I met and talked with many POWs that were involved with the forced marches. With few exceptions all were American, most were airmen, many were on the marches. All would talk at length about their horror story of being shot down and captured but rarely was there a word about the marches. This book has made me aware of the uncomprehensible mental and physical horror these men went through. It is quite probable they could not talk of it. Its my belief there were thousands that have never been able to speak of their horror. Not to the military, family or even to comrads, the mind would not let them remember, it was too painful to try . In recent years there have been many, many postings on military sites and in military magazines of relatives of deceased POWs asking for info from anyone who mite have known their relative and almost always begs, PLEASE GIVE US INFORMATION ON HIS MILITARY SERVICE AND CAPTURE, HE NEVER TALKED ABOUT IT TO US.

Dresden, this has been debated since it happened. It will never be resolved. The military justified it, the critics have torn it apart and will continue to do so. The Germans made good use of it to keep the population mindful of the murderous terrorfligers. If I were in the Strategic 8th AF and ordered to bomb Dresden at the time I probably would not have given it a second thought. My missions were 9th AF Tactical fighters and in later years I have often wondered about the destruction we waged against the Germans the last year of the war. Not much has been written about the 9th AF but it was deadly and decisive against the Germans. I digress, sorry.

More later RossT

Re: D-Day, there is an interesting piece in the May-June issue regarding someone who was in the D-Day invasion which is pertinent to our discussion...as I'm in the Computer room at the SeniorCenter today I cannot give more details at this time..as I don't have the magazine with me.. Colkot

PBS will have a 1 hour TV special on the Memorial Next Sundy. My San Antonio Station, KLRN, has its first airing Sunday May 30th at 9:00 PM You must check the schedule of your station as they frequently broadecast at different hours. Perhaps those of us who catch it can comment on it during our closing days of this discussion.

The following is a brief synopsis of the content copied from the KLRN web site:

Episode: WORLD WAR II MEMORIAL: A TESTAMENT TO FREEDOM - 0 Series: WORLD WAR II MEMORIAL: A TESTAMENT TO FREEDOM

This program follows the process of conceiving and creating the new national World War II Memorial -- from the sculptor's studios to the stone quarries to the construction site itself. It features interviews with key artists and craftsman, plus political figures and art consultants involved in the decisions and controversies. Woven into the story of constructing the memorial are interviews with WWII veterans and those on the home front. Veterans include such public figures as Senators George McGovern, Robert Dole and Daniel Inouye, actors Tony Curtis and James Arness, pilots Chuck Yeager and Paul Tibbets, and ballplayers Yogi Berra and the late Warren Spahn. Showtimes: May 30 2004, 8:30PM [KLRU] Length: 57 min. Rating: TV-PG

Again Check the broadcast time for your local station.

Harold! This edition was in my hands at the time you announced the Discussion Croup. Sadly the pagination is very different than the editions described by others. Also, the font size looks to be about 8 points,;just too small to read without exhausting my old eyes. The magnifying glass did not make it easier!

This is to explain why it took me so long to get to "Waiting for Patton'" Harold, you have previously made suggestions to explain the differencesbetweenJoseph W. Lovoire's and my accounts of Blood and Guts' arrival. To date I have not found Lovoire's "Listen ...M y hildren" to establish whether he personally observed the scene he described.

I did!

Quentin

AARP magazine May/June 2004 has TWO articles of interest to our group The first is Return to Normandy by William R Newcott (p51) and the second Captain Cole's Last Mission by Warren Sloat(p55) which underlines the omission of another life story which comes through in the book... Oh and by the way, I have the Penguin edition of the book.. (wasn't going to schlep hardcover all the way to Chicago and it was 3 for 2)..and you'll probably hate me for this... no specs to read.. just on my nose to see where I'm going. Will certainly look for the TV program.. am going to Maryhill Cemetary on Memorial Day to take part in the Veteran's program & put my red& white begonias on Dh Siemaszko's grave. Colkot

Thank you RossT for your interpretation of the Aaron Kuptsow account. It is a rather long account of this Jewish POW experience Click Here, but it is filled with interesting details including as you said confirmation of the segeration of Jewish POW’s at the Barth Stalag 1 camp. Though the segregated Jewish section was the oldest and shabbiest part of the camp somehow if I am interpreting the account correctly the food situation in that section was a bit better than in the other section.

Also as Ross said apparently this Jewish airman anyway had orders to dispose of the dog tags if shot down as that was the first thing he did. This could have been grounds for the Germans taking him as a spy. In this case within minutes after his capture before the prisoners had been removed from the site a German Farmer brought in the dog tags so the Germans knew his religion. Again my conclusion is that it was lucky the SS had not taken charge or this story would have had a different conclusion.

Ross your comment in message 197 concerning the relative positions of the POW’s ordered to evacuate their camps and those remaining reinforces my conclusions from reading the Book that the evacuees were in the far worst situation. The ordering of those evacuations in the dead of winter with no supply or support capability was abject violation of the Geneva Convention warrant specific war crimes prosecution of those involved.

Quentin, I did not know that there was a penguin edition of the Last Escape. I did not find a paper back edition in the B&B catalog. I too have trouble with small light print.

I guess my interpretation of the Patton appearance among the newly liberation POW’s was that it was PR. He had some make-up work to do from his slapping a crying wounded American early in the war. Also many of our Generals etc had egos sufficient to qualify them for the L.A. Lakers team. Another example is the Macarthur “I have returned” pictures hitting the beach in the Philippines. On the British side Montgomery too had an alter ego that flared at frequent intervals sometimes causing trouble for Eisenhower.

As you reported you were there and didn’t see the Patton visit as described in the book, and I for one was not surprised at the absence of supporting testimony

I live a mile from National Cemetery in Arlington, VA. Today I went to town on the Metro and there were WWII Vets talking to one another about the Memorial. The radio, the newspapers are full of stories and programs relating to the war. But you know, I'm reading them all and so far there is absolutely nothing written by or about the hundreds of thousands of POWS. Why is that do you suppose? I know we haven't gone through the end of the war and the big celebration at the end of the war yet, but want to interject here how much we owe you dear souls who consented to retell the horrors of what you went through during the war. It is curiosity to hear how you feel about how you were treated and how you were able to cope once you did get home. If that is too painful for you to recount, I just want to personally thank you - especially - David, Elizabeth, Ross, Quentin, Colkot, Fai - I know none of it as been fun to talk about - I'm sorry to have fast-forwarded 60 years, Harold. Living here in this area has got to me and I needed to express my gratitude to those who are telling it as they remember it, no matter how painful.

One of the stories in today's Washington Post really got to me, and I thought of you. The Vet didn't feel lucky he survived, but guilty -

"Six decades later, the memory of his three weeks in the Hurtgen Forest still has the power to make Pennegar shudder and cry. "I feel guilty that I made it," he said softly. "Not lucky. Guilty. Damn."

The veterans of World War II are of a generation that never talked much about its experiences in combat. Now, at the end of their lives, the opening of the National World War II Memorial is prodding many of them to recall harrowing days when they were young soldiers and afraid." Brutal Battle in the Forest

Joan I judge your message a timly one, particularly the reminder that even now 60 years later, the POW's are ignored. Is their any recognition of the POW's in the Memorial? I think I know the answer.

Especially since my brother would have been shot if found in that Belguim root cellar but also since I knew so many from WWII and there is a part of me glad they survived or died rather than be a POW.

It fills me with such anguish and pain that I have to stop before I can go on. I have only met one POW from Vietnam ..he was the father of one of my daughters friends. Both he and his wife co-wrote a book about it which was in Reader's Digest. He was quiet and pleasant but there was something in his eyes that tells me more. His family in my opinion suffered as much as he did . Death is at least certain but as a prisoner there was daily anguish that bruises the spirits of those still waiting at home.

To me when we think of books that should be required reading this book is one I would nominate.

Everytime my surviving brothers come this way we go back to DC and visit all the memorials. We visit the site of my husbands grave and the brother who is also buried there. And I always do something for me ..I walk among the graves and read the names there ..just so they know they are not forgotten ...for each grave site holds someone who was willing to serve. anna

Anna I agree that this is a hard book to read because of the immense emotions generated by the uncertain position of the prisoners. In my case in reading the sections about the marches it really affected me, but never to the extent of tears. I think it was more a grim hope that they would survive as indeed the majority seem to have done. As I've said before the tears came (yes, literally) when reading the several liberations accounts. Another participant said he also was affected in this manner. Do you suppose this is a likely male reaction?

I do wish the allies immediately after the liberation had made a greater effort to study and evaluate the marches in order to have a better record than is currently available of who the men involved were and particularly who and how many did not survive. Such a study could also have fixed blame and possibly resulted in more war crimes prosecutions steming from the evacuations of both those ordering the march and those Germans in charge of the marches.

Dixie Deans' plan for a "suicide" mass rush of POWs for the front gate if the SS takes over the camp.

So hungry that they looked at the trees off in the distance and fantasized about eating the bark.

Kindly, old(57 years), German guard nicknamed "Pop" giving survival advice to prisoners.

SS troops arriving at the gate, followed by a loud arguement between them and the guards. The SS leave.

Order collapsing amoung the guards.

Bedraggled, retreating German soldiers trudging by the camp.

Fallingbostel guards abandoning the camp and joining the retreating soldiers.

POW's taking charge of the camp.

British tank crashing through the front gate. The elation!

Rich

The elation!

The chaos...

Hi Joan. I saw the new WWII Memorial when I attended a reunion in DC a few weeks ago. I'm sorry to say I was unimpressed. The new air museum at Dulles Airport is a real jem though(or maybe I still think like an "airdale"). I also enjoyed seeing the Naval Memorial museum near Union Station.(for those who are wondering, an "airdale" was/is a flying sailor.)

The WWII Memorial not only doesn't mention the American Prisoners of War, I don't think it even listed the number of American servicemen killed, wounded or captured in the War. It only had names of a few WWII leaders -- Roosevelt, Churchill, Eisenhower, McArthur, to name a few, -- at the end of quotations.

Everyone was puzzled by the random order of the posts, each with a name of a state or U.S.territory. I asked a park ranger and he said they were placed according to the dates they entered the Union, but on alternate sides. I couldn't have figured that out if I hadn't asked. As Time Magazine said, it looks like the Facist (sp) Monuments carved in Mussalini's time.

I had some tickets to the official dedication this Saturday, but I'll go to a veterans party being thrown at the local high school and watch the whole thing on TV. I'll probably have a better view.

Maybe I'll go to see the monuments in Washington on the 60th Anniversary of VE or VJ Day. Anyone going to France for the 60th Anniversary of D Day? I was hoping to go with a childhood friend who landed on Omaha Beach, but he died a few weeks ago.

Mort.. there seem to be a number of people who are going to Normandy there's an article in the May/June AARP magazine P 51 onwards... also some travel tips..Colkot

Thank you Rich and Joan for your Fallingbostel snapshots. I think Rich’s list with the addition of Joan’s concluding add-ons summarizes the Fallingbostel liberation experience very well. The British tank crashing the gate, the elation of realizing they were free, followed by the letdown, the reality of the chaos of the situation that was still a battlefield, with a quick trip home unlikely.

This noon on my car radio I heard a NPR living history statement from one WW II veteran to the effect that in his particular situation his survival required hard work and continual exhausting effort and suffering; on the other hand the alternate was easy requiring nothing but resignation. Though I missed any connection of this statement to the POW situation, it would certainly describe many of the POW’s options.

Mort I can understand your lack of enthusiasm for the Monument. Perhaps people really value the listing of names as on the Viet Nam memorial. I too noted the apparent absence of text messages in the pictures I linked previously. But the Names of the Leaders were there as signatures below certain quotations they had made relative to the devotion and sacrifice of those who had served under them, not to specifically honor the leader. I guess I did not consider the lack of text necessarily a negative yet there must somehow be at least a symbolic connection to the service.

Previously I wondered if the Philippines had a Column. It would seem appropriate for them to have one since they were then a colony and took the brunt of the first attack. Do you remember a column listing them? If the states are listed in the order of their joining the Union the original 13 should be bunched together. I could not find the Texas column from the web pictures. It should be the 28th wherever that might place it.

Calkot thanks for providing an answer to Morts question about veterans going to Normandy for the 60th anniversary of D-day. I had missed the report in The AARP magazine and I find the May-June Issue had slipped through the cracks. It’s not one of my favorite or most read magazines.

Seems the mew Memorial is getting mixed reviews. I'll be in DC the weekend of June 6, have that and Dulles Museum on the agenda. Possibly the POWs were not considered in need of a memorial, they have one at the Andersonville Civil War site , Georgia. Worth the visit. Doesn't mention the "marches" tho.

The main reason for the DC trip is the reunion, a 3 day affair, of my Fighter group. It's my hope some of the origional pilots that survived the last year of the war will attend. They have been few and far between the last couple reunions.

When the German war ended and POWs were liberated I think its safe to say they were a little more than elated, what probably had kept most of them going was their ability to mentally escape the reality of their ordeal by thinking only of home, family, wives, girlfriends and above all else during those times of starvation, FOOD. Anything to end the hunger.

After it ended their thoughts turned to HOME and getting there as quick as possible. Going home was the immediate and only concern. I only met a very few that were interested in returning to their military unit.

At Camp Lucky Strike, France the clearing center for Americans, there were many walking wounded and injured, obviously in pain, that faked it as being OK when they went through the physical check up line to get through so they could board a ship for home as soon as possible.

This is not to say the military was negligent, those that needed hospitalization or treatment were certainly taken care of, But those that could and wanted to, got through a very quick medical check and were on their way home. One Captain in my tent had only been a POW a few weeks before the end of the war, had a broken leg, the Germans had treated hin and he was in a cast from his foot to well above the knee. He peeled the cast off the morning he was scheduled for the medical check, could hardly walk, he was a couple ahead of me in line for the check up, when his turn came he marched in to the medics tent and when he came out we asked how it went, he grinned and said "Hell they never even looked at it". We saw his leg earlier and it looked like a piece of raw meat.

Getting home, going home was all we wanted. General Ike showed up and greeted a few hundred of us, we gathered in an open field, sat on the ground, Ike and a couple of other notables were on a wooden stage. Ikes comments were off the cuff , sincere, genuine appreciation, well received. After his talk Gabe Gabreski, thats Lt. Colonel Francis G. Gabreski. ex POW, former Barth Stalagluft 1, north compound 2 commander, WW2 leading ace, was introduced and he was warmly applauded. I don't remember his exact words but his opening remarks were, "General, give us 2 weeks leave and ship us to the Pacific and we will have that war over in no time". You could hear the GASP from the men. Immediately a roar went up. I remember some of the words used, not fit for polite company, but Ike got the message. It was made more than clear that Gabe could go to the Pacific or to Hell if he wanted to but but send us home. In my case I got home with a 3 month medical leave, but to this day I have no medical problems that were service connected.

RossT

Your description of the base in France to allow the men to decompress etc was very interesting to me > I remember my brother telling about a base , I dont know if he mentioned a name ..just that it was in France ..he said he spent 3 mos there before he was able to get on a ship for home..He also said he hid some "loot" a down comfortor ( which he slept on all the rest of his life ) and a german lugar which he accidently shot himself in the leg when he dropped it on the floor. He had showed it to some family members who were attending my wedding and had taken the safety off. Went to the bathroom after dark and thought he put it in his back pocket...instead in fell to the floor and discharged going in just below the knee and lodging near the groin. The police wanted to know if he was trying to commit suicide..I wont tell you what he told them..but after an exray determined its location the doctors said to leave it alone ..to remove it might have given him a limp of worse...made my wedding memorable

. anna

I understand this evening Bob Dole will be on CNBC on the Dennis Miller talk show discussing the WW II Memorial. This is Cable channel CNBC at 8:00 PM Central time.

We are now in the closing phase of the discussion that is now open for the concluding chapters 14, 15 and the Epilog, as well as comments concerning the Memorial and any catch-up comment on earlier chapters. My present plan is to keep the board open for final concluding posts from everyone through Tuesday of next week after which it will be archived in the usual manner. I also plan to make a Readers Guide for this Book and discussion that will also be achieved.

Ross thank you for your comment on the predominate POW mindset upon their liberation. You seem to confirm my interpretation from the book. First and foremost the newly free POW’s wanted to get quickly home. Of course the Governments both the US and UK that had become quite efficient a moving army columns across the channel, through France and into Germany resumed their habit of requiring time consuming administrative procedures that slowed the process. Presumably it was faster for the Brits since they were closer.

Did they call it “de-briefing” then? Was that the purpose of Camp Lucky Strike? I find the naming of the camp after the cigarette sort of comical. It suggests the current practice of a Company paying to get their name on a popular sports stadium. I suspect that was not the case here, but they probably did make available a continual supply of free or very cheap cigarettes.

I remember the process of my release from the Navy in mid 1946 also seemed to take forever. It required at least a month from the time our transport ship left Guam to my Discharge on June 19th. Actually I think it was more like 6 weeks and it seemed even longer. First it was a slow troop ship taking like 2 weeks to reach San Francisco. During that trip I finally got hooked on cigarettes a habit that took 10 years to shake. Then there were 10 days at the Navy center on Treasure Island during which a suitcase with my camera and a dozen rolls of undeveloped film taken on Guam disappeared from a navy check locker. After 10 days at TI, finally a slow train to the Texas Camp Wallace discharge Center near Houston for another week of physical exams etc and discharge.

Anna your brother’s accidental accident involving a WW II souvenir was certainly an awful family experience that was not uncommon during the first decade of the post war years. Many such accidental shootings and grenade or shell explosions were fatal to the owners and/or their children, families or others.

Harold Arnold. Just saw your questions and will try to answer. Yes, there is a column for the Philipeans, which was a U.S. possession at the time. I asked a park ranger about the seemingly random placement of the State names. He said they were placed in the order which they became states, but on alternate sides of the memorial -- so I don't think there would be any sequence, even of the original 13 states. I think that the Vietnam and Korean Memorials convey a lot more feeling. I know of one Korean War vet, who is moved to tears everytime he visits. And the list of names on the Vietnam Memorial is mezmerizing. There is a Vietnam Memorial in Downtown New York City with letters written by people who died in that war. It always has fresh flowers and notes left by relatives or friends. And I always am moved by the Merchant Marine memorial in the water off Battery Park. It shows crewmen on a sinking ship pulling a buddy out of the water.

Ross: As I mentioned earlier, I was also in DC for a squadron reunion. True there are only a few of us left. (We only had about 150 to 200 men in the squadron to start with.) We flew PBMs (Martin Mariner Patrol Bombers) and there is an Mariner/Marlin Association which has several hundred members. We piggy backed our meeting on theirs, since there aren't enough guys left from my squadron to fill a banquet hall. We just had a private dinner together on night. My flight crew has the most guys still living(6) and three of us were at the reunion.

Mort Kail

Harold... it isn't mine either...isn't it supposed to be for some old folks...? Colkot I also noticed the post about how old comrades have dwindled.. our Polish Naval Association Group has only met once or twice since my husband died (1999) and it's very sad... I will remember Kot's old friends when I go to the Maryhill(Chicago) memorial service on the 31st and also those whom I have met through these posts.. Colkot

Anna, your brother is lucky to be alive after his luger accident. Thats not a very nice wedding present!! I'll detail a little more on the Camp Lucky Strike further down.

Mort, I read your comments on the Memorial with interest, seems like there has been open disagreement on the project from the start. Hope I dont find it too disappointing. Those Martin PBMs were real workhorses during and long after the war, The Air Sea Rescue use of the PBM was remarkable. I find my Group reunions to be held together now by the second and third generation. Last reunion was last November, primary theme was to honor our CO, Colonel A,V, Grossetta. I made reservations but was not able to attend, He passed away 2 weeks later, Nov 18, 03 age 89. Those that ran the reunions were in ill health themselves and desolved the organization around the end of 03, shortly after children amd grandchildren of the men have picked up the leadership and done a remarkable job of oganizing this years reunion. Great agenda, guest speaker Thomas D. Jones, retired Astronaut, 4 missions, very impressive bio, has several books to his credit. He with associate Bob Dorr are working on a book from the Pilots perspective on the use of the P47 thunderbolt as a tactical support of troups and tanks. Looking forward to it.

Harold and all-- Camp Lucky Strike was a tent city to receive POWs and load em on ships for home ASAP. Those that were liberated and turned over to the Americans were forwarded to the camp immediately. The POWs needing medical attention were diverted to hospitals, those of us that were ambulatory went directly to Lucky Strike. We arrived there by truck, air or train. Some probably walked in. I arrived there around the 15 of May, 45. There were tens of thousands there allready. We arrived there (most of us) dressed as we were when we left the POW camps. There is no way to describe the appearance of those POWs I was with. No two were dressed alike, no semblance of military uniforms or insigna, filthy, smelling like goats, unshaven and some were like walking wounded as mentioned before.

First thing was to march to the showers, strip naked, pile cloths and personal belongings on the ground, take a shower, get dusted with DDT, pick up new fatigues and shoes socks and other necessities and pickup personal items but leave the old clothing in a pile to be burned or buried. Assigned tents, fed, given written information on the camp. There was no formal De-briefing, only a set down with a noncom at a typewriter and a pile of forms. He asked questions, you answered and he typed. It was cryptic, no gathering of much information except the general basic information needed to establish who you were and briefly what had happened. Thats about it. following that a 3 week wait for a boat, a week at sea, landed at New Port News VA., called home, got a 3 month leave, 2day buss trip to Ohio. I think you will find this to be typical of most POWs, (Air Force Officers). Regards RossT

RossT: Thanks for your kind words about PBM,s. Mostly we were called Dumbos because we looked like an elephant flying.

During the Vietnam War, and more recently at the Intrepid museum, when asked how many people I killed during WWII, I was happy to answer that we saved the lives of a lot more people than we killed. My squadron rescued more than 50 downed American flyers. My crew alone saved at least 10. Usually we would search and spot the raft and direct a picket boat (Distroyer or DE) to the spot. A few times we landed in the water, picked up the guy, sometimes within range of Jap guns, then took off from seas running 10 to 15 feet high. I think we were the first to use JATO (Jet Assisted Take Off).

When we were at Okinowa, we did shoot down a few Kamakazis who were trying to destroy themselves against our ships. My crew also attacked a convoy of ships with troops and supplies headed for Okinowa. Fortunately we flew so slow that their armed escort fired way ahead of us. As bow gunner, I aimed for the officers on the bridge but don't know if I hit any. So I'm sure I saved more lives than I killed. We got a citation which said something about "making a silk purse out of a sow's ear." I didn't even know what that expression meant at the time.

Yes Ross we also have a few children and grandchildren of former squadron mates at our reunions, but not many. By the way, I took some pictures of the Memorial and can e-mail or Ofoto them to you. I don't know how to post them on Senior Net.

Sorry to digress. I know this is a book discussion, but I usually "read" books on tape while exercising. So I won't get to hear The Last Escape until it comes out on audio tape.Mort Kail

Mort the apology for digressing is NOT necessary. Though the Book is our backdrop, WW II and those who served always is in our view. Any comment on WW II and particularly individual war experience is proper, particularly now as we conclude.

I think previously you mentioned being at the Ulithi base during the course of your Pacific service. Later today I hope to link a hastily prepared Web page with about a dozen pictures of my group at Ulithi about Oct 1945. I think you said you had been there earlier in 1945.

Mort, that is an interesting account of your flying boat experience. That aircraft, your squadron, and you deserve much thanks for the lives you saved. One particular flying boat rescue often mentioned is the rescue of Ensign Gay from the torpedo plane squadron, the first unit to initiate the Battle Of Midway. Japanese fighter shot down all the squadron planes; only Gay survived the battle. Despite the fact that it is always mentioned in accounts of the Midway battle we never hear particular details. Gay must have been in the water quite some time like 24 hours or more. It took quite a person to hold on so long. Another example of flying boat rescue is their sighting of the survivors of the torpedoed cruiser, Indianapolis. That fortuitous sighting made possible the saving of the remaining survivors after many days in the ocean

Mort, Ross and All; my opinion of the Memorial based on the web images I have studied, media reports, and the comments here is emerging favorable though I understand that memorials of this type are bound to strike individuals in vastly different ways. I guess I am quite satisfied with the symbolic rather than verbal connection to the war and those who served in it. It was not built to specifically memorialize those who died, or those who were POW’s or any other component group. Its purpose is to memorialize the service of all who served. And it did this through the symbolism of the column, the arches, the setting, and the limited text testimony of leaders like Eisenhower, Churchill, Macarthur, and Marshall

This interpretation makes the mention of any particular component groups or individuals unnecessary and to do so would have reduced the emotional impact the memorial now achieves. Other memorials specifically honor the dead or the POW’s (at Andersonville). The National Memorial on the D.C. Mall honors all!

Ross, adding up the time sequences that you posted, it seems you got home in about one month after you first got to Camp Lucky Strike. The principal time drag for you was the three weeks waiting for the boat. I can understand that that would be a bottleneck, because of the limited transport ships available. One of the 42 pictures on the site I linked the other days shows the Queen Mary arriving at N.Y. City with 14,000 returning GI’s, quite a crowd. I got the idea from the book that for some the time was longer though I know even a month seems forever in those circumstances. Even the 2-day bus trip to get to Ohio seems strange today, but the choice then was Greyhound or the train. The Bus choice was generally a bit quicker, but the train route easier and less exhausting.

Probably for those GI’s liberated by the Russians who were left to making their way on their own to the Russian Port of Odessa, the time between initial liberation and arrival home was much longer.

Mort it should never be asked How many you killed ? but thanks for how many you saved. If the men and women who served had not done so we might well be speaking German ...and certainly our world would have changed forever...For most we are full of pride in what you halped to achieve and grateful you were willing to serve.

I know when my brothers met at family celebrations it was not the war they spoke of but the people they served with. They were remembered both the living and the dead and I think hearing them helped me to realize war is hell...but the people who serve are special..I thank you for your telling ...and I recall my husband mentioning Jato assist when he was in Jets...

HArold thank you for sharing your feeling regarding the memorial..it helped me to decide it is not a specific group that is being honored ..regardless of where and how they served, regardless of whether they are buried in some cemetary , regardless if they were POWS , regardless of how important or little their job was, but a memorial to ALL of them .....and that is what is should be...thanks ...anna

Hi Arnold. I read the book about the Indianapolis and the ordeal of the crew after the ship sunk. It was a PBM which eventually spotted the survivors. After another PBM landed to pick them up it was too heavy to take off and taxied back to a base with survivors packed aboard, even on the wings.

I had read that a PBY Catalina flying boat spotted the Japanese fleet at Midway and gave our fleet a jump on them. They also spotted enemy fleets before a lot of other battles. I flew anti-sub patrol in the South Atlantic in a Catalina before we formed our PBM squadron.

I remember seeing a History Chanel recreation of Ensign Gay's view of the Battle of Midway I believe he was the only survivor of a flight of TBFs. Former President (41) Bush flew a Torpedo Bomber (TBM Avenger) when he was shot down at Chichi Jima, near Iwo Jima (Have you read Flyboys?). He was rescued by an American submarine. He and Barbara were on the Intrepid when they brought an Avenger aboard (obviously not his). It's on display in the hanger deck.

Did you know that John Kennedy, JFK's older brother, was flying a PBM from England during WWII when his plane blew up over Europe? Does anyone know what really happened and what his plane was carrying? For that matter, does anyone know what really happened to Glenn Miller?

Harold: We were part of the fleet that formed at Ulithi preparing for the invastion of Okinowa. We must have left March 28 or 29 and flew to Kerema Rhetto, an island group near Okinowa. I remember flying over the Okinowa beaches when the barges were landing troops on April 1. (Easter Sunday, April Fool and D Day all at the same time). All I remember of Ulithe was the warm beer we got on Mog Mog, seeing some baseball game and watching my first Kamakazi attack. Our planes were boyed in the water and we fired up the auxilery motor so we could use our gun turrets against the Jap planes.

By the way, one of the other volunteers at the Intrepid was based on Mog Mog for a number of months. I'll try to put him in touch with you. Mort Kail

Mort, I remember reading something on JFK's brother. I forget what it was and can't find it now. The brother's name was Joseph, a Junior named after the father. "Click Here for a short accountof his death that does say a bit about the special mission he was on when his plane exploded killing him and his crew.

Regarding Glen Miller Click Here for a web biogralhical sketch that includes the following paragraph:

Finally, on December 15, 1944, Glenn boarded a single engine C-64 Norseman aircraft to travel to Paris, France where he was to make arrangements for a Christmas broadcast. Tragically, the plane never reached France and was never found. The band, without Miller, performed the scheduled Christmas concert under the direction of Jerry Gray and continued to perform, playing their last concert on November 13, 1945 at the National Press Club dinner for President Truman in Washington, D.C. At that time, General Dwight Eisenhower and General Hap Arnold thanked the band for a job well done.

Anna and all; during the war I knew only one person who was killed in the war. He was a neighbor boy 3 or 4 years older who joined the navy about September 1941. I think he was still just 17. He was lost when his ship, the USS Houston, was sunk along with British and Australian crusers trying to block the Japanese fleet invading the Dutch East Indies. As a kid in Houston I had boarded the Houston when it visited that city about 1935.

Afer the war I remember no friends who had been former POW's but several who had been wounded. One of these in particular I remember had lost a leg in Normandy. He had a specially equiped new Oldsmobile that had been furnished him by the V.A.

Thanks Harold Arnold for the links. Of course I meant Joseph Kennedy Jr. The plane pictured looks like a land-based B24. The PB4Y used by the Navy was basically a B24 with a single tail and some minor changes. I had heard that he flew a PBM. Maybe not on this mission.

But now, 60 years later, maybe we can know what the mission was all about. Mort Kail

Today's edition of "The Providence Journal" carried a story about veterans sharing stories as they gathered for the dedication of the WWII Memorial.

Quoting from the article:

Corbin B Willis Jr. of Sandy Oregon, flew bombing missions. But on his 22nd mission for the Army Air Forces, his B-17 plane was hit by the Germans and caught fire, forcing all nine men aboard to jump. They landed and he was captured by the Germans.

Willis would survive the interrogations that would follow and a 100 mile march through the snow from one German camp to another. But his heart was broken when he returned home.

Most everyone thought he had died, including his wife, who had remarried.

Now 81, he recalls with tears in his eyes: "The thing that keeps you alive is your faith in God and the fact that you have a wife to come back to. I could tolerate the prison camp. But the hardest thing I couldn't accept was her being gone."

Willis eventually found love again and remarried.

Rich

Several such unhappy and unexpected homecomings as described in Rich's post above were mentioned in Chapter 15 of the book. Do you think there would be more or less such occurrences if such a situation happened today?

I see the C-span schedule for tomorrow includes an airing of the Memorial dedication ceremony tomorrow at 1:00PM Central Time, 2:00PM eastern

Click Here for 12 WW II pictures of me and ship mates taken at Ulithi atoll in October 1942. The war had ended and my unit was in the process of deactivating the Navy supply base and harbor that had been built there.

The History Channel is also broadcasting the actual dedication ceremony live - beginning at 2 pm EDT today - Fox, CBS - It is a beautiful sunny day - mercifully cool - wore a jacket to walk this morning. Our Vets will not be sitting out in sweltering Washington heat and humidity for the ceremony today.

Our family will be going in to town tomorrow as the Metro and the Mall are already jammed today. For the 150,000 who have tickets, there is not a problem, but for the rest of us...

Many comments about the size and the lack of personal touches to the new monument - when comparing it to some of the others. In fairness, the Korean experience - the landscape and memories were so similar for so many - the endless marching in the cold, underdressed, poorly equipped - more readily captured and visualized in that moving memorial. WWII evokes many different memories for so many - in different theaters, in many scenes from the air, the sea and of course, on the ground, whether in combat or camps - not easily captured in one memorial. As Harold observes, "The National Memorial on the D.C. Mall honors all."

I wonder if the names will ever be added. This is the constant criticism I've heard. The architect of the Memorial explains that the Memorial is not a school to teach what happened during the war, nor is it a memorial dedicated to those who died, but to all who served and sacrificed - all of those names would have to be included!

Remember the absence of representation of women who served when the Vietnam Monument was first made public? This led to the addition of the statue now standing at the entrance to the Vietnam Wall - now it feels as if it has always been part of this Memorial.

I'm seeing a number of photos of the mementos and flowers piling up around the different pillars at the WWII Memorial this weekend. I'll take some photos tomorrow and put them up here for you. Mort, is you email me your photos, I can put them up for you right away. I'm sorry I missed you when you were in town. Ross, I would love to meet you on the weekend of the 6th if you have some time and specifics. I'd love to take your picture - you have been such an important part of this discussion!

Clearly everyone wanted to get HOME as soon as possible and every day's wait, sitting around waiting for transport must have been excruciating for all as Ross describes. - The last chapters of the book describes the chaos within Germany - in the camps and along the marches. Some of the released POWs were described as "zombies" - their release was so abrupt. Images of atrocities committed when released - the beheaded guard, the young girl executed by the GI for simply goosestepping - these are the kind of things that the returning POWs would rather have forgotten. No wonder they didn't feel like talking when they finally did get home. They didn't want sympathy - many felt guilty about some of things that their captivity had reduced them to. One of those interviewed said he had been "altered physically and mentally for like." Our Ross was lucky to have escaped with no physical debilities. Many returned with gastro-intestinal problems resulting from starvation, dysentary, hepatitis, vitamin deficiencies and other untreated or badly treated injuries. Yet above all, most wanted to return home and put it all behind them - to get on with the life that they had been dreaming about.

Rich describes one of the released POWs who told his story to the Living History Project - (SeniorNet will be participating in this project and hope that all of you WWII Vets will share your stories for posterity in this data bank.) The Vet Rich heard found things had radically changed at home - he had lost the wife whose memory had been keeping him alive. I would imagine that an abrupt return HOME must have been difficult for many. The authors of the book conclude that guilt buried deep - guilt for having been captured, guilt for some of the acts captivity had inspired - caused emotional difficulties down the road.

Ross, you were lucky to return home in satisfactory physical and hopefully mental condition. The authors say you are in the minority - I'm wondering how many soldiered through those post-war years without any treatment whatsoever. In my heart, I hope that the youth of these young men would allow time to pick up pieces of shattered lives - the resiliancy of youth.

The mention of Guam, Okinawa, the Naha Airport and kamakazes remind me of the photographs presented to SeniorNet by the widow of Herman Kogan, who was a combat jounralist in the Pacific. You might be interested in clcking this link to - these never-before-seen photographs of the taking of Okinawa... They have been given to the Library of Congress' Living History project, which is collecting the WWII Vets stories and presenting many of them on the mall in DC this weekend...

Harold, In your posting #229, you asked if, compared to wives in the WWII era, there would be more or fewer instances, today, of wives who would give up on their missing husbands, assume they were dead and remarry.

The question is a serious one that goes to the heart of our American culture as it is now, compared to then. I often wonder about where our culture is headed. Are we as a people, today, the same as the America that rallied together, fought together, and won the war against evil in 1945?

There is a recently published book- "Hard America, Soft America, Competition vs Coddling and the Battle for the Nation's Future" by Michael Barone. (Michael Barone is a Writer for "US News and World Report") I have not read the book, yet, only reviews. The book addresses (among other things) the question you asked, or at least the question I thought you asked.

I'm inclined to recommend the book for discussion in Senior Net, however the political aspects of such a discussion (which are inevitable, particularly during a presidential election year) would probably lead to some very heated exchanges.

So, I find myself in the ironic position of not recommending a book, because it could create too vigorous a discussion.

Rich

I watched the Dedication Ceremony on C-Span. Previously there had been interviews with call-in questions to Bob Dole and George McGovern as a Washington Week segment. This was followed by an interview with the architect, Friedrich St.Florian. From the latter interview I learned that the correct way to spell his name is as it appears above with the period and no space between the t &F. I was pleased to hear the architect’s interpretation pretty well paralleled my own. Also I was pleased to learn that Texas is one of the two states that will have replicas of their column located on their Capital Grounds. Both of the ex-senators had seen active WW II combat and gave interesting accounts of the planning, financing and construction of the Memorial.

Thank you for the weather comment, Joan. Since it appeared quite sunny, I feared it might be hot and humid. Your report of the cool temperature explains the jacket covering the shoulders of the Opera star singing the national anthem.

I personally don’t expect names to be added. This memorial honors a generation- not just those of the army and navy, but the factory workers and farmers who armed and fed the free world. It includes everyone from Rosie the riveter to Bob Hope- not just military medal winners. The addition of names would lessen its impact since to include everyone would be a copy of the census.

As I previously reported PBS will have a program on the event at 8:00 PM Central time this evening.

Thanks, Harold, for the PBS time this evening.

The local American Legion says there is no mention of the Prisoners that survived both in Europe and the Pacific. I'll have to do a bit of research... or maybe just go see it in the Fall if I get to the Book Festival.

EVERYONE! Rich has correctly expand my question to its necessarily broader scope. Instead of limiting the question to one of unfaithful wives and girl friends the broader question becomes; ARE THE PRESENT GENERATIONS OF AMERICANS CAPABLE OF COMING TOGEATHER WITH the CONSESUS NECESSARY TO SUPPORT THE SUCCESSFUL PROSECUTION OF A FUTURE ALL OUT WAR? Are they capable of offering the dedication and the sacrifice required by such a project?

I suppose the answer to that question depends on the public opinion concept of the issues involved. Are the issues and their consequence of sufficiently great importance to warrant such a commitment?

In September 1939 the vast majority of Americans did not consider the issue of Nazi Germany important enough warrant going to war. I suspect FDR as President did. He immediately began to engineer a policy designed to oppose the Nazi. Yet even as late as Dec 6th 1941 the majority of Americans still opposed war. The Japanese changed that in a single moment with the Pearl Harbor attack.

Possibly it takes something of that magnitude to bring the American people together. But what would it take in today’s media driven world?

Hey Pat or anyone who saw it, How was the PBS coverage of the Memorial and its dedication? I confess, I watched the basketball game.

I think PBS did a good job of coverage. I saw one "documentary" of Bob Dole and Tom Brokaw walking and talking over all the things we talk about here and at a War Memorial. It was very touching.

I was young but married and we talked current events all the time both in our own house and when we were out with our other young friends. Even at picnics and baseball fields we talked about the world events in 1941 and in the winter when Dec 7 happened it was as if we knew it really was time and my whole family were ready to do what ever we had to to defeat the Nazi's and the Japanese. However we also hear all the conspiracy theories etc that everyone remembers.

WWII really was a defining moment in my and my husbands life, and all my male relatives .

We have talked recently about the question on everyones mind. Would Americans sacrifice right now if our President called for r an all out land air and sea effort to quell the terrorists and save the whole middle east from the tyrants that are now trying to destroy Saudi Arabia too. I know in my heart that America should intervene right now not just diplomatically but in a full out effort .....

It wont happen in the US we have today. The public wont stand for it and will not even recognize the reasons they have to pay more for gas. Oh well..this is not the time or place for my soap box. Still this discussion has me right on the edge of going out to the parks and giving speech's. hahahah shades of my grandfather. Faith

I have been following this discussion since its beginning and thank you all for the moving stories, insightful perspectives and thoughtful consideration of the issues involved in wars.

I am intrigued by the recent questions about the dedication and the sacrifice required by "an all out war." These questions seem tied to me to the reasons individuals volunteered for military service or sacrificed at home for the War effort during World War II.

I would be interested to hear how some of you would answer that question too? What were the reasons that you or family members volunteered for, or took on military service, or sacrificed on the home front for the War effort during World War II? What would you say motivated or inspired you or others? What words would you use to describe what you were fighting or sacrificing for?

Like many I watched the dedication ceremony and was often moved to tears that just wouldnt cease. I was 12 in 1941 and remember vividly hearing Roosevelt make his speech while listening to the radio in my classroom at school.

I had no idea what it meant at the time but my three older brothers were part of that generation. The oldest went into the US ARMY AIR CORP, the second ended up in Anti Aircraft Squadron and as I have said was caught behind enemy lines in the Battle of the Bulge and he and a friend were saved through the bravery of a Belgium farm family who allowed them to hide in the root cellar beneath the kitchen floor. My third brother joined the Coast Guard and since he was only 17 my parents had to sign for him.

The interesting thing about Emmett who joined the CG was the fact he and a young black man ( of course they were both boys) who came from a family who lived in a small cottage in the alley behind our home went together to join. They were both accepted but because of segregation they werent allowed to serve together. Which came as a surprise to them and to our family. They also thought joining the Coast Guard meant they would be serving here in the states..so it was a surprise to my brother that he ended up on destroyer escort duty in the Atlantic for the war.

As I have mentioned I only knew one person who was special to me , my best friends brother, who died on the beach at Normandy. That brought home the war to me.

However, the discussion on The Greatest Generation and this one has made me truly understand what a sacrifice those who served made. I also understand why many never talked about it especially when they first returned. They had to move on..because as I have found in my own life if you dont make new memories the old ones will destroy you.

My husband who served in the Pacific at the end of the war and really never saw a battle..AND I would like to say each person who served in whatever capacity were heros in my mind. The supply clerks etc who never saw battles etc were also ready to follow orders and while I am sure they were secretly relieved they would have gone if they had been ordered.

We married while he was in still going to school on the GI Bill and most of his fellow students were former service men and many of them were married . Some of them had served in battle zones and from thier wives I learned a lot about how they managed. These were all brave and caring people and I always liked them but only by reading about those years have I at this late time in my life truly appreciated them.

I hope there are many who did not take part in this discussion have or will read this book. I also think the dedication and the discussions will help younger generations appreciate and understand thier parents and grandparents.

My oldest daughter made a comment regarding 9/11 ..she said they thought it would bring us to our knees but instead brought us to our feet. Do I think we would be supportive of a similar event? Frankly I dont think we will have a choice. If we are to remain free the way I see it we will have to fight.

Someone commented at the dedication that those who served saved all of western civilization..and in my mind that will be needed again.

Thanks Harold for a superb discussion and for all who posted and shared, my gratitude.. anna

Oh, what a party! We've lived in the Washington area since 1967 - just across the river. Have come to town for every parade, festival, inauguration - but NEVER has there been anything like this in my memory. Someone in the crowd yesterday said that there's been nothing like it in this town in 60 years! I believe it! Do you remember the baseball player, Bob Feller? He was there - said every child in America should be required to write an essay describing what his/her life would be like had we not won WWII. That was the tenor of the entire day. I took so many pictures, but would like to share a few with you this morning.

Every Memorial Day, the VietNam Vets come to town with a "few" of their buddies on their bikes - "Rolling Thunder" they are called. Starting at 7 in the morning, they roar down Constitution Ave and then over to Independence...you can't count them - everyone as given up. One police officer who had been out since 7 am (I took these around noon - and after 4 they were still roaring down the avenue)...the police officer said there must have been over a million. As I say, that is an unofficial count. Roaring THunder comes every year with MIA-POW flags on their bikes - the ROAR and the solemn faces on these bikers bring the tears every time. One guy had on the back of his jacket, "When I die I'll go to heaven, cause I've been to hell and back." This "noise" is what you hear first thing when stepping off the Metro and it stays with you - like the ocean.
Rolling Thunder

Roaring!
The Mall was transformed...next add the music of 40's to the roar of Rolling Thunder - the music was live and canned throughout the mile of tents - tents for partying, tents for storytelling and for recording the stories - and the stories were heard everywhere - and everyone was listening!
Telling it like it was

Stories

Recording the stories
And did they party! One of the men got up out of his wheelchair to show off a few steps!
In the Mood

Swingdancing is back
Words are inadequate to describe the Memorial itself. Maybe it won't be the same when all the excitement dies down and everyone goes home, but yesterday will live in memory. For those who expressed feelings that it is too grand and impersonal, believe me it wasnn't that way yesterday. Personalize it they did! I have so many photos, but wanted to give you something of the sense of being there. Every state column had piles of mementos, photos, flowers.

There were families with their Vets, there were widows and occasionally, there were single Vets who made the trip by themselves, just to be a part of it. We adapted this Veteran of WWII and Korea - took his picture - bought him lunch!
"Our" Frederick!
There was not one single sour note, only regret is that this wasn't done ten, twenty years ago! Everything was upbeat and we came away renewed with the spirit of ...the Greatest Generation!

What a great post and YOu were there...boy I am glad I wont be with anyone today because I have wept so many tears ..they are both happy tears for the survivors who have at last been recognized and tears of gratitude to all ...

Your photos added that personal dimension and thanks so much for sharing and your report was perfect...I wish I had been there in person so thanks for going in my place....I wonder if my sister in law and husband went..He is 80 and she is 79 and was a WAVE ...his brother died in a POW camp and for a long time he had a terrible time with his emotions. I called them and there was no answer and while they are both in ill health I know if they could they would go.

Many ,many thanks again for sharing ...a report from someone you know who was there is so very special...A MILLION Thunderers????WOW ...anna

Harold - I wanted to let you know that I have found (B&N) and ordered the book from which The Last Escape authors took the description of Patton's arrival at Stalag Vii A I'll write more when I get it. Also, in the June AXPOW Bulletin is my request for Budapest POWs to contact me. One has already phoned! We'll get that one worked out too, and rescue the story of that mystery.

Marcie - Dou you remember whan I sent you the Zip Disk with the War Years on it that you put as the initial entry in the Memories Gallery.? Unfortunately, my Mother's letter of grief did not get in the Appendix! Thanks for all your good work with SeniorNet!

Marcy in her post 238 asks:

I am intrigued by the recent questions about the dedication and the sacrifice required by "an all out war." These questions seem tied to me to the reasons individuals volunteered for military service or sacrificed at home for the War effort during World War II.

I would be interested to hear how some of you would answer that question too? What were the reasons that you or family members volunteered for, or took on military service, or sacrificed on the home front for the War effort during World War II? What would you say motivated or inspired you or others? What words would you use to describe what you were fighting or sacrificing for?

I volunteered for the Navy in August 1944 about six weeks before my 18th birthday. At the time once a guy was 18 he was in the draft pool, and could not choose his service. A 17 year old could still volunteer for the Navy. So my enlistment was not entirely motivated by the desire to serve. Rather I looked upon military service AS THE INEVITABLE, and since somehow I was more attracted to the Navy than the infantry, I choose the early volunteer route.

I almost didn’t make it. To this day I have never had blood pressure and pulse rate readings so high. Blood pressure results were like160/100 and pulse pounded out at a rapid fire 140. The Navy was patient. I returned repeatedly, twice a week for a recheck, always with the same disappointing result. Finally on Oct 3rd, just 2 days short of my 18th birthday, I returned for a check and somehow the pulse was down to 95 and the BP was down to about 130/80. The Doctor scratched out all the dour margin medical shorthand describing the sad state of my cordial-vascular health and said I was a sailor. I took the oath that afternoon.

A few weeks later I arrived at the San Diego Training Center for Boot camp. As the open truck carrying a load of us recruits made its way through the training center to the Camp Decatur initiation facility, we passed companies of recruits drilling on the grinder shouting, “YOU’LL BE SORRY.” In fact I was becoming a bit on the sorry side but rationalized my early release the next day during the comprehensive repeat physical exam when I figured my BP would burst the top of the measuring tube. I even began to consider how to use the $300 mustering out pay. Well despite my effort to beef up the BP the reading came out something like 120/65 with the pulse rate a cool 80. I was in the navy for the duration.

Today at 77 when I take my BP as I sometimes do at the Wallmart pharmacy a likely reading might be 123/68 with a pulse rate of 80. Like I said my BP has never read so high as it did in August and September of 1944.

As I have said before I enjoyed my almost 2-years of active Navy service as is evident from the web page I linked last week. And I did make it over seas by July 1945 some 2-months before the Pacific war ended.

Thank you Joan for your review of the Washington Mall Block party yesterday commemorating the memorial. The pictures were spectacular and it must have been a great experience for the million in attendance. I wonder how that number compared to the crowd at the last several inaugurations?

We had a much smaller celebration at the Institute of Texan Cultures. Instead of my usual afternoon work interpreting the Texas Indian exhibits I greeted visitors at the door. Our event was from 3:00 – 6:00 PM essentially a concert by a 17-piece big band playing 1940’s wartime songs with several vocal groups under the dome. The band members wore vintage 1941 army uniforms. They played two, hour and a quarter sets with a short intermission in between. I saw much of the second set. Our attendance was about 1/1000th of your Mall crowd totaling about 1,000 over the course of the afternoon. This was of course an immense crowd compared to the usual Sunday afternoon crowd not much over 100.

Thanks Joan for the story and pictures of DC. and thanks to all the participants of this discussion. It has been a real trip back in time for me. A very special Memorial Day indeed. Faith

"My oldest daughter made a comment regarding 9/11 ..she said they thought it would bring us to our knees but instead brought us to our feet. Do I think we would be supportive of a similar event? Frankly I dont think we will have a choice. If we are to remain free the way I see it we will have to fight. Someone commented at the dedication that those who served saved all of western civilization..and in my mind that will be needed again." is something I have a comment about.

I am German, was on the "other" side in the conflict that has been discussed here, but I was a small child, born in Berlin in 1941. I would have had MANY comments to make, have many memories and much family history and experience, but came to this discussion too late.

Let me just say that I am thankful to every allied vet who fought in WWII, even though I and my family were on the receiving end of the bullets and the bombs. Germany needed to be rid of a tyrant, and when the U.S. entered the war my family "knew" the war would soon be over, that the agony would end, and we were thankful.

Whether or not the U.S. is willing to apply that sort of dedication today, I'm not sure. And as you said above, it will be inevitable. I for one hope that we will, that the sleeping dragon will rise reluctantly to do what needs to be done, just as it did in WWII. But I'm not sure, since 9/11 was a direct attack the likes of Pearl Harbor, with much anger and frustration at first, then replaced by mostly fear and panic, and then a sort of laisses-faire attitude in an awful lot of people with just a sort of "sentimentalized" attitude about the attack. I don't know if this generation has it in them to make the sacrifices that will need to be made----but I hope when the chips are down that they will.

Annafair, I too want to note full agreement with your comment in your message 239 regarding the unifying force of the 9-11 terror attack on New York. Its immediate effect was in every way comparable to the result of the attack on Pearl Harbor that brought us into WW II. I think our response to 9-11 was the same as after Pearl Harbor- immediate and all-out. The only remaining question is, is their determination sustainable in the absence of new attacks and clear manifestations of current ever present danger.

Mountain Rose, thank you for joining the discussion. You will be most welcome to add any further comment concerning the book or the other WW II issues. My paternal family too is 100% German descendent from 1850’s immigrants from Baden and Hanover. I think it is the present judgment of history, that the German people too were victims of Hitler’s madness.

Joan, What a great first person report on the events in Washington during the dedication. The upbeat feeling that you came away with also came through to us in your words and pictures. The photo of the impromptu decoration of the Battle of the Bulge monument with participants' photos and mementos put a human face on the monument.

This monument, has brought back to America's consciousness an awareness of what these brave men and women did for us.

Harold, Your blood pressure story is funny. Murphy's Law was in effect even back in 1944. The high readings on your enlistment physical were probably the result of anxiety that you would fail the physical. Which you did. Hey, you got your wish in the long run, sailor!

MountainRose, Your story of being on the receiving end of Allied bombs and bullets gives us another perspective on the war. Your conclusion that the outcome was a just one is revealing. It had to be hard for you, though, in the days after the war.

Your wondering if America will come together and make the same effort and sacrifices when the chips are down moves me to a comment.

More Americans were killed during the sneak attack of 9/11 than were killed during the sneak attack at Pearl Harbor. MountainRose, the chips ARE down.

Rich

I do believe even with all the initial anger, public opinion has been molded by the liberal media to the point that the country is truly divided. Before WWII Americans did not want to go to war either, but once Pearl Harbor was attacked the majority got behind their president. I don't seen that now, alas. I hear too many people talk about oil and WMDs and ridding the country of Saddam, and fuzzy notions about peace. I believe the REAL reason we are in Iraq is because we now have a base to get at the underbelly of terrorism. Saddam just gave us a good excuse to walk in there and get that base, and the fact that the country was rid of a tyrant was a side issue to our own safety. Personally I'm always delighted when a tyrant falls, no matter how, and I'd rather have most of the battle between the free world and terrorism go on on their turf than on our turf since they have made the new rules. No matter what ideals we have in our heads about "living in peace", that battle will continue and we have to be in it for the long haul. I resent the fact that Germany, the country of my birth, once again did not see the big picture and support the U.S. Of all the people on earth they should have known better.

Regarding prisoners not being fed, let me just say that towards the end of the war NO ONE in Germany was fed except those farmers who still tilled their land. One has to remember that in a country that is devastated by war, not only is food production NIL, but so is transportation, the rats are loose to eat the rest, and the water is polluted. Everyone survives as best as he can---or NOT. The average German citizen had no power at all to help any prisoners except maybe on an individual basis. They didn't help the thousands upon thousands of refugees who wandered Germany in sort of a perpetual bleak homelessness either, but most farmers, if they had anything at all to eat, were kind to my mother and two small children who showed up alone and offered to work in exchange for some food. Sometimes in chaotic situations that's all we can do---forget about the big picture and help in little individual ways.

Yes, the Russian army was HORRIBLE, and the stories I remember hearing of things people saw them doing would curl your hair. Civilized people would say those things are not possible, but they were, and there were eye witnesses. But we have to remember that applied mostly to the average Russian soldier who was still in the dark ages, primitive and brutal. The more educated officers did try to control the raping and the looting and the killing, but they were few against many who were drunk with blood.

Early in the war before my father returned to the Russian front, he told my mother to get out of Berlin and as far away from the Russians as she could, which she didn't do until the chips were down, and it was the Nazis who made her leave, not the Russians, by insisting that she help out in a munitions factory without her children by her side during constant bombing attacks. My father had also told her NOT to go to the French sector, but head instead wherever the British were, and preferably where the Americans were--that she would get the fairest deal from them. That turned out to be absolutely true. The Yanks were humane and often very kind, jerks excepted---and in any large group there will always be a jerk or two.

And Stalin arrested most of his soldiers who returned to Russia after having fought because he felt they had been "contaminated by seeing Germany's plenty in comparison to themselves as well as being exposed to the other allied armies concept of freedom, and were forever spoiled for the communist cause". So returning Russian soldiers were arrested for no other crime than that their feet had touched foreign soil in duty to their country, and millions of them died in Siberia.

I can tell you that I'm surprised prisoners actually received Red Cross packages, even if sporadic. Things were so chaotic and everyone was scrounging to survive, that I'm surprised anything got through. I know we never received anything as far as food or material help. But the Red Cross was an admirable organization in the way it tried to help refugees find shelter even while the war was still going on, and in the way it protected abandoned children whose families had been killed, and in the way it worked day and night to reunite families who had lost contact in the chaos. To this day I know people whose children were carted off to Russia never to be heard from again, but it wasn't because the Red Cross didn't try to find them again. My own family was reunited, at least those of us who were lef alive, with the help of the Red Cross. My grandfather died of starvation in a Russian concentration camp, some of my aunts died of typhus in Russian concentration camps, and my grandmother came out of one with ill health for the rest of her life, having barely survived.

Also, there are too many people who talk as though the U.S. is in Iraq for the sake of empire building. The U.S. has never wanted an empire, and certainly proved that in both Germany and in Japan after WWII when they could have build an empire to their hearts content. After it was over those same armies that fought helped us to recovery. That is a SLOW process, and impatience will get no one anywhere. After a war there is residual anger, great trauma, confusion, health problems that would make us shudder, many die-hards who refuse to give up their ideology, the whole underbelly of a society destroyed, black marketeering with its power struggles, including killing. We have to remember how long occupation lasted after WWII, but that's all it was---occupation until the countries could stand on their own two feet. I will be forever grateful to all the brave persons, even those who supported it with their tax dollars, to make that happen.

The U.S. has never been a colonial power in the way Spain or France or Britain were, or in the way communism took over country after country---and it never will be. I believe this prez is determined to re-establish our security---and that is all. But it's an intricate chess game where all the rules have been changed by terrorist tactics, and it will be a long road I just hope we have the stomach for it---but I don't see. I only hope I'm wrong.

. . . mind the fact that in order to bring Germany to its knees, the allies imported the Colorado potato beetle by the millions and dropped them over us. My mother remembers them raining down on us after the planes had passed. Potatos were the major food crop, and when the potato beetle destroyed the crop, everyone starved, not only prisoners.

As a child in primary school after the war I remember getting days off school to go and glean the potato crop of potato beetles and their larva, by hand because there were no chemicals. We did that for days on end, and everyone, old and young, helped to try to save the crop. And this was AFTER the war and was a residual of decisions made during the war, and because of it people were still starving long after the war.

Do I blame anyone? have any resentments? NOT ON YOUR LIFE! War is hell, and those decisions needed to be made, including Hiroshima---in my opinion. And someone has to make them after setting priorities, and when you are in the thick of things it isn't until you look at them in retrospect that you see your mistakes or ways you could have done something better or more humanely, and sometimes in the thick of battle all sentiment has to be put aside to get the job done and save lives on your side. The allies did that, and it's just a fact of life to me, and I'm glad they won. We'd be living in one hell of an ugly world if they hadn't.

Thank you, Harold, for your interesting account of your volunteering for the Navy. What a story about your blood pressure and pulse!

qpeters, I am so glad to see you participating in this discussion. Thank you for emailing me your mother's letter. I will add it to your story in our World War II Living Memorial.

Joan, your eye-witness account of the DC Memorial dedication is wonderful. Thank you for the multi-media details. You've made the experience very real for me.

Everyone, I appreciate your thoughts.

MountainRose,

Your life experiences and memories of WWII are amazing. I hope you have taken the time to put your experiences and thoughts about America's role in the war on terror in writing.(I mean besides posting on SeniorNet.)

I agree with you on what America (and the civilized world) needs to do before it's too late, and it's refreshing to hear someone come right out and express her thoughts in this environment of political correctness.

Rich

MountainRose,

Your story about the difficulty in finding food in Germany immediately after the war reminds me of a story told to me by a friend. He was a young sailor in the German navy, and his ship was captured by a British ship in the final days of the war. Apparently the captain of the British ship was not prepared to deal with the captured crew, as he had another mission to perform.

The captured German crew was set ashore, with some food and water, on an island in the North Sea. They had to fend for themselves until the ship could return to pick them up.

Within days, the war ended, and the German crew wondered if anyone would come to get them. Before these poor people starved to death, another British ship finally arrived. A party of British officers came ashore and made an announcement to the starving crew.

They were told that the war was over, and some of them will be returned immediately to Germany. There was a vast and immediate need for farmers to raise food for the civilians and refugees in defeated Germany. Anyone who is a farmer will be immediately repatriated. "Will any farmers in this group please raise your right hand?"

Everybody's right hand went up.

Rich

Thank you Joan for the terrific description and pictures of the WWII Memorial Dedication and the many activities surrounding Memorial Day in Washington, D.C. Now you make me sorry that I didn't come back down for the dedication weekend. But I had a lot to do in New York.

On Saturday, we had a ceremony for veterans and families at the local high school. First some local officials and speeches, then a live broadcast of the ceremonies by the History Channel on a large screen in the school auditorium.

I spent Friday doing my usual volunteer stint at the Intrepid Museum. With so many sailor and marines in for Fleet Week, we were crowded all day and I lost my voice explaining how our propeller driven WWII planes operated.

I especially enjoyed showing a group of Iwo Jima survivors (Marine and Army) around. We have a bigger than life statue of the famous flag raising on Mt. Surabachi and a film showing the battle. It was great to hear those three men recall some of the battle sites and equipment they had last seen nearly 60 years ago. One of the guys even thought he recognized himself in one of the motion picture scenes.

Monday, at 11 a.m., we had our Memorial Day ceremony on the flight deck of the Intrepid. Fortunately the rain held out until afternoon. Mayor Bloomberg and a lot of other officials spoke, but the big attraction were the ships docked at nearby piers for Fleet Week. I went aboard the Iwo Jima, an assault ship with troop carrying helicopters and landing craft. Most of the Marines had just returned from Iraq and were expecting to be shipped back there soon.

Also went aboard a couple of Destroyers. All their missle launching capabilities and electronic controls were beyond me. But I felt right at home with their twin 50 cal machine gun mounts in the bows. I asked if they were for anti aircraft, but mostly they are to repel small boats and swimmers (we had 30 cal machine gun for that in my day). Also toured a Coast Guard Cutter and a ship with all kinds of futuristic search eqipment aboard. The Intrepid Pier had recruiting and information booths for all the military services. Great for filling "goody bags" with loot.

Some of my fellow volunteers I spoke with on Monday had been to Washington for the dedication and made me sorry I didn't go. But even though I missed the big show in DC, I was plenty busy with local events. As I mentioned, I saw the WWII Memorial when I was there for a squadron reunion a few weeks ago. I'll have to get back down there again soon. There is so much to see in D.C., it's a great place to be retired. But then again, so is New York City. Mort Kail

Thank you Mountain Rose for your further comment on life in Germany as the War ended an your early remembrances of the early post war years. There are several references in the book to farmers in the process of planting fields in April 1945 as the Russians were invading from the East and the Western Allies were coming from the West. The chances of harvesting much of a crop are pretty slim after the field hosted a tank battle. In the book there is one account of one of the POW evacuation columns pulling the newly sprouted grain shoots for breakfast. “Sprouts for breakfast,” I am reasonably sure those guys would have preferred something more laced with pork fat.

Mountain Rose brings up one big universal change of attitude toward government. In the 1940’s even in the United States there was a societal imposed limit on the questioning of authority. No one, not even the Media questioned individual command decisions. Though only the President and maybe a couple of dozen top level subordinates have access to the vast inflow of NECESSARILY TOP SECRET intelligence on which the decisions of War and peace are made everyone led by the everywhere present media stands ready after the fact to judge the wisdom of the decision. I suspect the military history of WW II would have been quite different had the wisdom of each operation been the subject of public debate as it and its follow-up operations unfolded

Mort, You volunteer at the Intrepid museum? I've always wanted to drive down (from RI) to see that.

When is it open? Where exactly is it docked? Is there parking? What's the admission, and when's the best time to go? Sorry for all the questions, but I have to strike, now, while I have access to a true-life Intrepid volunteer.

Rich

p.s. Sorry, Harold, I'll get back on subject next post.

The discussion is now approaching its close. I have certainly found it stimulating and interesting. I will leave it available here for concluding comments from every one through this week after which it will be moved to the archived discussion folder.

In th e archive folder, I understand it can be kept open for additional records particularly by Quentin and Ross and David whose presence here has given the discussion a new dimension not enjoyed by most discussions. Previously we have had the Authors of the book as participantgs in the discussion. Here we have had as participants the actual people, who made the history the Authors wrote the book about. And In addition there were the ½ dozen others who to were on the scene or near it at the time. Together all of you have made this experience far more the the mere discussion of a book.

Mort I to am particularly interested in WW II Museums and particularly about Museum ships. I will make another post on this subject this evening after I return from my volunteer work at The San Antonio Missions National Historical Park.

Thank YOU, Harold, for your constant attention and interest in each and every post. We won't forget the input from "the Greatest Generation" - and in particular for those who put themselves in harm's way to preserve future generations of Americans.

Mountain Rose, please continue to post your memories! You made some very thought-provoking comments on our present situation. I have a question for everyone - following Pearl Harbor, we decided to go to war. Was our first response to send troops to Japan? When did we send our boys to Europe? (I'm thinking of 9/11 and the decision to go to Afghanistan and then to Iraq.)

Quentin, was interested to hear that one of the Budapest POWs phoned you following your request in the June AXPOW Bulletin. Hopefully we will hear more from you about these POWs - One regret I did have was missing the presentation last Friday on the Malls by former POWs. I was babysitting and it wasn't until after the fact that I learned that these men spoke for nearly an hour on the Mall in the Veterans'History project. Will try to find a transcript of their talk. Ross, David, Mort, Harold, Jesse, Quentin and well, all of you - please come into the SN's World War II discussions. You still have so much to contribute! D-Day is fast approaching.

Once we conclude this book discussion, it will remain open as Harold points out in SN's World War II discussions. Please do feel free to continue to post your memories here. If you lose this link, just go to SN's main Discussions menu, scroll all the way to the bottom (the next to the last item on the list) and you'll find this Last Escape Discussion and many more. See you there!

Rich7 and Harold Arnold. Glad you are interested. The museum is a former Essex Class aircraft carrier that went to the Pacific in 1943. It was hit by kamazazis and torpedos several times in WWII killing more than 100 crewmen.(I tell people who ask that my PBM picked up at least one fighter pilot from the Intrepid in the Sea of Japan and sent rescue ships to several others in our air-sea rescue operations.) It served through the end of WWII, then picked up some of our early astronauts like Scott Carpenter, Gus Grissom and John Young.

It was converted from a straight deck to an angled deck and catipults installed before it went on three tours to Vietnam. It was decommissioned and became a museum in 1982. Only a few other Essex Class cariers escaped the scrap heap and were turned into museums -- the Yorktown in Charleston, the Lexington in Corpus Christi and the Hornet in Alameda, so I guess the Intrepid is closest for you Yankees.

Our museum pier on the Hudson River at 46th Street also has an atomic submarine (The Growler), and one of the Concords (which hasn't opened for tours yet. We had a Destroyer (The Edson), but that's been towed away and hasn't been replaced yet. They tell us that a destroyer or light cruiser will come in soon and I've heard rumors that the New Jersey battleship may be moved here from Camden, since it gets few wisitors there. If you're here at the right time, you may see the huge new Queen Mary 2 which docks next door.

You can get all the information about directions, parking and admission on their web site www.intrepidmuseum.org. Or I can send you a current brochure and other information. I can probably get some guest passes for you and pass along some tips -- like go on a tour of the submarine first (they only take 15 at a time and it gets crowded later); Also try to get to the flight simulator early (if you are interested). If you plan to visit, let me know and I'll try to be there that day.

Keep em flying, or floating or whatever. Mort Kail

Thank you, Mort.

I'll try to be there on a day that you are volunteering. I'd like to meet you. I've talked with you before in the Golden Age of Radio and Television discussion.

Sounds like there is more than one day's worth of sightseeing there.

Rich

. . . attacked the U.S. was automatically at war with Germany the minute it declared war on Japan. That's because of the treaty that Japan and Germany had. They had a pact sort of like NATO, where if one is attacked then all are attacked, and if war is declared on one, they all have war declared on them.

I think it was a Hitler tactic to give Japan free rein in the orient and hopefully advance into Russia from the other side to bring Russia to its knees. So they agreed to conquer the world together, so to speak. A pugnacious lot they were.

I see the same thing in the Middle East. There may not be signed treaties, but there is agreement between all of them to let terrorists "do their thing"; so I consider them all under the same umbrella. Sometimes it gets hard to sort out, because some of the governments are also very unstable there and have little control of what goes on within their borders----but by our becoming aggressive it may force them to clean their own houses. So it's OK with me.

There are 2 major WW II war ships in reach of me here in South Texas They are the carrier USS Yorktown and the old battleship USS Texas. As I understand it, the Yorktown had a long career from WW II until Viet Nam. As mort said it is now in Corpus Christi. The attached picture shows it across a narrow protected harbor in Nueces Bay. My friend took the picture with my Nikon camera with a 200 mm lens. We had been in the Art Museum on North Beach and had returned to the parked car. I had unlocked the car and walked across the street to the edge of the dock.. She picked up the camera, pointed it said turn around and say cheese. I turned and she shot. Considering the fact that she did not focus or do anything save point and shoot, I thought it a pretty good picture, better of the ship than of me.

The USS Texas too had a long career that included the two World Wars. In WW I in 1917 it made a sortie with the British Battle fleet into the North Sea to try to engage the German fleet that was supposed to have left its port. Alas, It missed its chance for a Battle of Jutland rerun when the German fleet returned to port. During the Second world war it was quite an antique but it saw service conveying troop ships to Europe and it participated in the Normandy landing with its 14 inch batteries. During that operation it was hit by shells from a German shore battery. One of the shells failed to explode necessitating its return to England to get it defused. After the war it became a museum ship located at the San Jacinto Battle Field near Houston. Somewhere I have a good black and white picture that I will scan if I find it.

Attached is a picture of the USS Texas at San Jacinto. I took the picture about 1970. The one feature of this ship that impressed me most was the antique steam reciprocating engines that drove the ship. I had thought all of the old WW I battle ships had been modernized for WW II with modern steama turbine engines. But not the Texas. This would explain its WW II service being limited to convoying troop ships and the shelling shore installations as at Normandy.

Southern California, my father was very interested in the Navy, and we spent many weekends and holidays in San Diego when the Navy was still very active there. He was also a very friendly person and got to talking to some of the sailors, who subsequently took us on tours of some of their ships, with explanations of how things worked: one was an aircraft carrier, the size of which boggled my mind; and another was a submarine in which I just couldn't imagine that many men all living and moving around together; also a destroyer.

Of course, at the time I was more interested in the Navy personnel than in their ships, but my dad had a good time and kept a close eye on me so I wouldn't stray. Hahahah!

Nice shot Harold!

Just wanted to say that I was touched by the posts that have appeared here. WW2 was present while my children were growing up particularly as the Polish community here in Chicago kept(and still does) a lot of memories alive through their Veteran organizations, Scouting and Polish Saturday Schools. The children were active in Scouting and have dual language skills.I always felt that they are children of the holocaust, particularly as they are in the media, where they often have to explain that their father, although a gentile, had spent 5 years in a concentration camp. If you are on the East coast you may have read my son's work in the NY Daily News. If you are a movie or TV buff or enjoy documentaries, you may have seen/heard my other son or daughter. If you have needed translations or social work in the Chicago area, then my other daughter may have served you. Any person who went through WW2 in whatever role, had much to deal with, whether it was re-location, re-hab, coming to grips with whatever had happened to them or their colleagues. In those days we did not realize what problems we had..most of us just got on with our lives as best we could. I was fortunate to meet a good man, immigrate to the US and live a full life..The fact that we were able to have children was a plus..( Kostek said you never knew what you were given in the camp) And believe it or not, the German government DID give my husband some compensation..(which he applied for) enough for a down payment on a modest home and a monthly stipend which paid the mortgage..!! My full name is Collette Siemaszko and I am the SeniorNet coordinator for the Copernicus Center in Chicago Colkot mortgage

Colkut: What town in Poland was your family from? My wife was born near Lvov and was three-years-old when the German's invaded. Her mother was killed by the Germans and she was a hidden child for the remainder of the War. After the War, the Russians annexed her part of Poland and she moved with an aunt and uncle to Breslow renamed Vroslov. She came to the US about 1963.

I visited Vroslov and Krakow about 15 years ago. A lot has changed since Poland threw off its Communist rulers.

What is your son's name? I was a reporter for a New York City newspaper and still read the few that are left. Mort Kail

All the children kept their last name Siemaszko. Daily News by-line is "Corky" Siemaszko..writes some good stuff, aka "the poet of the tabloids" was a Kiplinger fellow & trained at City News Bureau in Chicago, Actors are "Casey" Siemaszko (NYPD Blue and lots of other stuff) Nina Siemaszko("Ellie"WestWing.. last seen on CSI) My late husband grew up in Gdynia where his Naval Commander father was the head of the Naval dockyard.After his mother died he went to Bielany, a boarding school in Warsaw and then on to the Naval Academy, following in his father's footsteps.The actual family comes from Eastern Poland,Lithuania and Siberia. I have also been to Poland in 1978, as a student in summer school at the Catholic University Lublin, which included a trip to Krakow(Jagellionian U) Much later on Kostek & I went on a "tour " of Poland just after the fall of communism...the difference was startling. All the children went for scouting summers when they were smaller, Nina was the last visitor when she was shooting part of "Jakob the Liar" in the Lodz ghetto. She was actually in Gdansk when the big strike began and they had to send her back to the US in a hurry! "Hidden" children ..that's something I know a little about, from other people and reading.. we have an extensive library of Polish related books. Colkot

This will be aired June 6, (8 &11 pm ET) also June 12,( 8 & 11pm ET) This is NOT the Warsaw ghetto uprising. It took place after the D-Day landings..1944 I was fortunate enought to go to a special screening last night in Chicago,with some survivors of the battles present and David Ensor who was largely responsible for the content. Interesting piece, well conceived and of interest to a WW2 buff. It was well hidden because of embarassement to both the US and GB... Colkot

My mother waiting for mail from my brothers in WWII .......her anxious state when they failed to arrive...and I cant recall how long it was she waited for mail from my brother who was in The Battle of the Bulge but I know it was such a long time she was so concerned she transferred that fear to me...and I know when the mailman finally delivered that letter I was the one that brought it to her...she read it and wept.

I do recall passing homes with a small flag in the window with a gold star and knew it meant the people inside had lost someone in the war.

I think it took me a long time to appreciate the fear of losing someone in a war..or could appreciate the quote from Milton "They also serve who only stand and wait" And it was a world -wide war..so I know in every land there were those who served ..who waited to hear thier loved ones were all right , who spent anxious days and nights praying the war would be over and loved ones return.

Today on the anniversary of D-Day I am overcome with emotions as I look at the pictures and see what happened 60 years ago. The men storming those beaches, scaling those cliffs, parachuting into hell...and returning to take up thier lives and hoping to put those memories to rest.

Sometimes we forget we did not do it alone..And those countries who fought the battles alone until we gave help ...and now I wonder why did we wait so long???

Just thinking today...anna