Latin Book Club I ~ Cicero Export

Salve! Welcome to our first ever Readings in Latin!

Do you miss Latin and wish you could read it again? Read it with us in our grand new adventure! We continue with: (Click here to see our previous readings)

Cicero, writing in De Senectute, on the delights and real contribution of the farmer.

Mea quidem sententia haud scio an nulla beatior possit esse, neque solum officio, quod hominum generi universo cultura agrorum est salutaris, sed et delectatione,
quam dixi, et saturitate copiaque rerum omnium, quae ad victum hominum, ad cultum etiam deorum pertinent, ut, quoniam haec quidem desiderant, in gratiam iam cum voluptate redeamus.

Today's Reading:

Mea quidem sententia
haud scio an
nulla beatior possit esse,
neque solum officio,
(quod hominum generi universo
cultura agrorum est salutaris),

sed et delectatione, quam dixi, et saturitate copiaque rerum omnium, quae ad victum hominum, ad cultum etiam deorum pertinent, ut, quoniam haec quidem desiderant, in gratiam iam cum voluptate redeamus.

SeniorNet Latin Method #1: Clip and Save

Sententiae: ...taking one line at a time, and then most important for us to be able to discuss what this ancient said about our life condition. And we can learn all kinds of things-the relation of Latin and English words,the flow of a language in a foreign form and remember stuff spent years on-declensions,tenses,moods....Tudy

For Your Consideration:

1. Is there a significant difference in the Latin of Cicero and the Latin of say, Marcus Aurelius or the ecclesiastics? -- Justin
2. Who were Cato, Scipio and Laelius? Why do you think Cicero chose them as characters in his dialogues?

Previous Work in Cicero

Helpful Resources:

|| SeniorNet Latin Method #1: Clip and Save || De Senectute in Latin || The Latin Library: De Officiis in Latin || De Senectute Translation in English || The Latin Library: De Officiis Translation in English || The Perseus Project|| A Latin Dictionary and Grammar from Notre Dame University || Study Guide to Wheelock's Latin: an Online Grammar ||

Latin Dictionaries:
Realdictionary.com Latin dictionary|| Google:
Type in the word and the words Latin translation, EX: videri Latin translation

Won't you join us? Sign in here of your intent!

Our Goals:

To read and enjoy Latin again in a supportive, encouraging atmosphere, each one helping the other.
If you did not have Latin, our aim is for you to enjoy reading the translations of the sentiments of the ancients as we discuss the philosophy, enjoy the derivatives and appreciate the sentence structure of the Romans, something for everybody!

Everybody is welcome!

contact: ginny

B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Suggest a Book for Discussion
We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents.
If you do NOT wish your words quoted, please Contact Books

Well a bright good morning to you, we're ready to hear what YOU slaved over?

As you see in the heading, we're about to take up in the middle of a sentence and Cicero has led off by saying,

"For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome...

....and the floor is yours.

READ THE LATIN FROM LEFT TO RIGHT, don't read what somebody else said first, and give us your meanings of the words, the way you put them together, and a more polished translation if you like. When we finish the ENTIRE sentence we'll talk about the philosophy.

Were there any pronunciation issues you had?

here we gooo....

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt,

Your turn!

What did YOU get out of that?

haahha Don't be shy?
Who will try?

It's like a puzzle, all you have to do is fit the pieces together, in the beautiful way they were written.

If I start with "petunt" (peto)the verb, (third person plural, present indicative) and look for the subject of this clause, I find nothing, unless, Qui is the subject. How about "Who seeks all good ..."

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt,

Who, however, ask of themselves that which is good.

Nothing like making a fool of yourself. Had I not had 3 years of Latin 2,000 years ago, I would jump on this in a minute. I swear I am dense, I don't remember much. Ok To start with the verb petunt (I am not sure WHAT the heck the word means but "petulant" comes first to my mind.) Petulant, which is ill tempered or irritable. Sooooooo

Qui (who)
ipsi - by itself, himself, herself?
bono= good
omni- all
autem - self

What does the em make it? Feminine/Masculin or neuter? I have forgotten.
Who, himself ???? hmm - is not all good??

Now, that is rusty.

Let's try to add more words. It's the subject that bothers me... "who" with a third person plural verb.."Those who seek all good"... Now, where do I put ipsi and se?

Oh boy, I think I remember ipse,ipsa ipsud as an intensive(I'm not sure what that means now) and se is a reflexive pronoun and I'm pretty sure autem is a conjunction not I don't think a noun.And peto petere is the verb that means seek(like in petition?)But I can't get it to come together yet.(Oh how we had to memorize those forms)Just a thought, when I think about intensives and reflexives, do any of you get annoyed when newscasters or politicians say things like Joe and myself are going to etc,etc. You have to have something to intensify-do I sound pedantic or what)

My son and granddaughter just left and I have to get back into the swing of things.

From a lifetime of professional experience I am here to repeat what I've said before : it is not, and never has been, easy to translate from and into another language, nor are all translations necessarily always accurate. How particularly difficult the job is in Latin is quite obvious here.

I would very much like to take a look at the Latin text which GINNY gave us in English : For those who ... because it could be quite revealing linguistically. Would someone please tell me how I can quickly get my hands on it ? Thank you in advance.

On to parsing. JUSTIN, I too began with the verb(the predicate), petere in the infinitive (remembered drill : peto petivi, petitus). The verb has several meaning, among them is to seek, to aspire to.

As you said, JUSTIN, petunt = the 3rd person plural, indicative present, which points to a plural noun (the subject). And I believe that to be qui; here used in the relative sense, as in 'those who'. autem = but

a se ipsi

se and ipsi have essentially the same meaning, and when they are used in tandem, that meaning is more emphatic.

a se ipsi = for themselves (I take the 'a') to be 'for').

I said in an earlier post that qui (who) is used both as an interrogative pronoun, as in "Who is at the door ?" AND as relative pronoun; in this case it is the latter, I believe.

There's more work ahead to fit in "omnia bona", which is the objective in this clause, I believe. And as I read it, the clause is not (yet) complete.

I'll return after my California daughter's Sunday call.

Oh my gosh, as I was reading over my post and tried to correct a typo, the mouse suddenly became rigid, causing me to reboot. It has happened twice this past week, so I may have to buy a new one; at any rate I plan on being back here later.

I think you all have done an incredible job! I'm proud of you, not the least because you didn't cheat hahahahaah and you did try.

Let's take a look at what you said, I've got one little place I'm having a problem too, as you recall Cicero started this sentence with " "For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome..." and now he's going to mention another type of person, let's look at what you thought about:

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt THAT line will be inscribed on our brains forever! Hahahaha

OK let's look at what you put!

Moxie, I am so glad to see you here, you have done a great job!

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt,

Who, however, ask of themselves that which is good.

That's pretty darn close! Good job, how did you decide to attack that one? Want to give any tips?

Salve, Andrea!!
Welcome!! You said

Who, himself ???? hmm - is not all good??

I love your sense of humor, you're closer than you think and I DO like that "who," good for you, and "himself!" Well done!

This is a lovely group assembled here, and you've each, which is fascinating, concentrated on different elements, that's incredible.

Andrea this will get your mind off that guy you've buried upside down in your back yard! You NEED Latin!

Justin, well done, I love your attitude of let's try to add more words, and the subject bothering you. That often happens to me if I start jumping around in the sentence, instead of taking it in order, try taking it from the left just for the heck of it? YOURS was so good I hesitated to put it here hahahaha Here it is: Who seeks all good, that's pretty darn good, what do you going to do with se?

Tudy, wonderful reflection,

Just a thought, when I think about intensives and reflexives, do any of you get annoyed when newscasters or politicians say things like Joe and myself are going to etc,etc. You have to have something to intensify-do I sound pedantic or what)

No you don't, at all, do you all want to explain, in a short easy form, the difference in the intensive and reflexive? Or why we should even talk about it? We can manage without it, (those of you just beginning, but those of you not, do you want to differentiate?)

Here is something we can add to our notebooks.

You bring up a super point. I also tire of hearing people say myself was not sure or it was just myself and my wife, when they are trying to use intensives. I like silly little ways to remember things, to me Relative pronouns relate and Intensive pronouns intensify. In the Gilbert and Sullivan opera HMS Pinafore, they sing "He himself has said it." And in that one himself is an intensive, it only intensifies "he." Does anybody want to give any other examples? Dr. Grote has a wonderful explanation in his book.

Traude the Latin text for De Senectute is in a link in the heading. Thank you for those thoughts on the different elements of the sentence, good job, you are right on the use of qui in this clause, fun, isn't it?

OK let's pretend we're at lunch and we're sharing tiramisu and I look over at you and smile and say these words, could you puzzle it together?

(giving ONLY the base meaning left to right of the clause we're working on)

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt,

who, (it's either he who or they who) however (on the other hand), all good from himself (or themselves), themselves seek….

Could you make something out of that? Just as an experiment, and not knowing anything but the bare meanings, does anything come to mind, keeping in mind as Justin has said before, the context of the sentence?

I'm having a good time trying to put ipsi in a sentence that makes sense! hahahaah

ginny

GINNY, my eyes swim from looking at the single-spaced Latin text. What chapter is it, please ? SOS

Is the translation MOXIE provided by Loeb ? How did the translator arrive at "that which is good", I wonder ?

It is bad enough that many journalists use sloppy or faulty English, it is worse that many readers don't notice or, if they do, don't care. In the spelling of things (and names) foreign journalists are all too often careless.

Had a nice note from Doris just now and she's on her way in, she's new, too and has tried the line (got the WHO and didn't even have the antecedent clauses!

Welcome, Doris I hope you can post soon.

Traude, the chapters and lines are in the heading above? II, 4, lines 10ff.

Does that help?

ginny

Oh boy oh boy I got up in glee thie morning, couldn't wait to get in here, said to self oh boy we're doing LATIN again and I get IN here and where are you? Silence??

Ok that means something is wrong!

Now let's talk about what it might be?

DO you perhaps NOT want any "instruction" at all, perhaps I'm coming on too strong? Say so if so? Say what works best for YOU, that's what we're after??

OK I'll plunge right ahead with this morning, let's see how that goes?

I realize it takes a LOT of courage to try, it is work, but boy will it hone the old brain cells, my poor awakened brain last night said, oh let's look up peto, just for the heck of it, and I did, and WOWEE I found a different slant on old :peto;seek and I doubt sincerely it is what Cicero meant but he MIGHT have and I'm on fire to see, when we get to the end of this sentence tomorrow, what you think, how it changes the philosophy?

OK so let's say this?

To me, reading a Latin sentence is like holding your breath. It starts out and you almost hold your breath till you get to the part that matters: the verb. It's like some sentences in English: Down by the station, early in the morning, near the river shining in the sun, the trains sit, puffing smoke.

If that were written in Latin it would be remarkably like what we see here in Cicero, the verb at the end of the sentence (we haven't gotten there) and that IS where we get that construction.

In order to put that in our modern English you do need to put the verb close to the first of the sentence, that's our modern English structure, and after a while you fly thru all the Latin words to GET to the verb, mentally. I guess I have a control fixation, but I want to understand how I got there, too and revel in each word, because each word is there for a reason.

So for the last time alone,

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt,

The sentence begins (just taking the general meaning of the words) is who however (on the other hand) all good (things) from themselves seek...

And so together, one POSSIBLE translation, mine, is

"For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome. On the other hand, those who themselves seek within or from themselves all good things.... (The extra ipsi is troubling, not sure where to put it in ENGLISH, he's making the point that it comes from you yourself....that you YOURSELF have to seek within your own self the good things...and I so want to discuss an alternate forceful meaning of peto later_...so that's where we are as we take up our next clause....) eis nihil malum potest videri"

OK, now tell me this?

Should we do two clauses today or just one?

eis is pronounced eh EEs because that I is long, eIs.

videri is pronounced Wi dAY ri because v's are pronounced like w's and the e is long in vidEri.

So there are two new long marks i..sounds like EEEE and e sounds like A.

So, armed with that, you should be able to read that one aloud with no problems.

Now when you look at that new line, you know what annihilate (see the nihil in there?) means, and you know what a video store is, what other words there could you guess at?

Actually almost every word there except eis has a derivative in English.

Let's have some feedback, what's working, what's not, what's helpful, what's not?

omnia in our original line is plural. It's substantive for "all things" and bona adds the adjective " good," so you have all good things, and so moxie is right on in her addition of what which is good, it's plural but the sense is there all things which are good...isn't there a Bible verse like that, all things work to the good? That one would be omnia also: all things (understood).

Let's hear from you this morning on what works, what does not, what you want and what you don't!!!!!

ginny

I'm lost without my Latin dictionary in my hand, but it, along with my other books, is packed away in a box somewhere. They were not unpacked when my daughter and I moved. I wish some able-bodied person would come in and bring them to me.

Regardless, I'll take a stab at today's phrase.

eis nihil malum potest videri

It is not possible to see bad in them
Mal

GINNY, I don't think anything is necessarily wrong.

Just let me think out loud for a minute here and recapitulate.

MAL, as I understand Ginny's intent here, we are to look at each word in a given phrase, "hold" it lovingly, observe and identify it and try to define its meaning within the sentence, in other words to parse and "reconstruct", THAT is the challenge and the effort.

It is certainly easy enough for anyone to just go look up the available translation and post it here, ta-da !

Also, nota bene, there is a difference between the Latin verbs videre and viderI. That may well require some look into grammar.

TRAUDE, that's what I tried to do. I think it's best if I quit while I'm ahead and watch the rest of you.

Mal

MAL, with due respect, I think a dictionary is absolutely essential here, indispensable actually. Even then the task, though intensely challenging, is difficult because it is simply impossible to escape the grammar.

The fussy translator/purist in me stumbled mightily over our translator's linking "Who" with 'themselves', which - let's face it - sounds rather awkward in English.

As for similarities to English, well, we all heard of omnipotent, or omniscient, etc., we know what nihilism is; naturae, necessitas, accusant, inconstantia and perversitas certainly look familiar. But hey, despite the resemblance and origin, "perversitas" does NOT mean perversity.

this is interesting, thank you for trying Malryn, I think that's a pretty good shot!

Thank you Traude, I hope nothing is wrong, we're here to do what helps the most!

Remember we are just trying here at the outset, to get used to (f we are beginners) the language itself, and the way it's structured,I know it's hard. If we are Returning Romans we will need, perhaps, a bit of easing back into it, and I HOPE this is the best method, if not, there are others we could try?

Traude is right we do want to look carefully, but I believe if you keep on you can do it, Ginea Pigs unite!

I think let's try to get the meaning first and then parse, (those who can) later, Traude, do you think? I don't think beginners necessarily would be able to parse from the outset, but they might when they see the whole meaning revealed? And those with more experience might enjoy a little parsing (indicating the grammatical use, structure and relationship) of each word) when they are thru also. It might make more sense.

Traude is absolutely right that it appears a good dictionary might help, and I KNOW there is one online somewhere which will help!

The Notre Dame in the heading is no use, but there are two other sources you can try:

Real dictionary.com has a Latin dictionary and they are pretty good OR...

Try Google! Type in the word like this: videri Latin translation and it does work, you may have to scan down thru a couple of entries but you can find the translation.

That said, it's entirely my fault this morning that eis is out there bare XXXed you might say, so let's say up front, that eis means TO THOSE.

Eis is something you can NOT find on google but you can find videri Latin translation and potest Latin translation so if you don't have a Latin dictionary to hand, you can try GOOGLE!

So Malryn, now, if you began your clause with the words To those, would that change the way you looked at it?

ginny

Traude, what are you getting for perversitas, "perversity" is the definition I have for it, using Cassells?

What do you see it as?

ginny

Well shoot, I don't own a Latin tex, much less a dictionary with Latin, so I'm gonna give it the all american shot.

eis= To those (thank you I didn't know where to begin figuring that one out.
nihil=baseless or meaningless
malum= hmm, mal would be bad, not good
I forgot what the um ='s a tense ?
potest= I don't have a clue, something English, ah-- potent, impotent,potable? I still don't have a clue and will not look it up in the URL Ginny provided until I take a guess first.

Now we have videri= to see

so, To those, who see only bad things?

Ok I just cheated and looked up potest= power or ability is that correct?

So To those, who have the ability to see only bad things. How's that Cicero?/

This is fun, it's making me think and I couldn't believe I rememberd the old videri. Pretty soon I'll be singing Rigoletto.

Where is everybody? Did I scare them off with my idiocy?

There is no doubt about the origin of the word.

However, I submit to you that 'perversitas" in the chosen text passage means less our concept of "perversity" and rather more 'obstinacy', 'stubbornness'.

In haste. post scriptum: Thank you belatedly, GINNY, for pointing out the chapter and lines in the link, which I had not tried before. I copied and pasted the English translation and the Latin text of our chosen passage. I don't see the word "perversity" appearing in that translation.

Andrea, what fun you're having and you're edging closer and closer, I'm enjoying watching you! nihil means "nothing," does that change anything hahaaha (that's a riddle or would you say nothing from nothing leaves nothing) hahaahah and there's a trick in videri, but even AS see, read it from left to right add "nothing" and see what you get?

Traude, yes, what fun, I do see Shuckburgh translates perversitas as "unreasonableness," that's quite a free translation up there hahahaah

BUT that does not mean that "perversity" is not a definition of perversitas?

The translator can use any words he (or she in her case) wants to to make her point. Unreasonablenss makes sense, in the context she gives.

The Latin Bible is Lewis and Short, (and if you look up a word on the Classicist's resource on the internet, the Perseus Project from Tufts, you will find they refer you to Lewis and Short) and Lewis and Short says it means frowardness, untowardness and perversity. Cassells says it means perversity. Loeb translates it as perversity.

So I think this is a wonderful exercise, I love this type of thing, to realize that one word can mean many things, "perversity" in our modern lexicon may not mean what it did when these resources were written, at any rate, it is one of the definitions.

I look forward to hearing your own translation using stubborness or obstinacy!

TRAUDE, I went to three Latin dictionaries online this morning to check words before I posted. They all wanted root of the word and the ending as two separate things, so weren't much use.

Might I politely suggest that those of you who are more familiar with this language go easy on those of us who either don't know it, or who have, like me, forgotten almost everything we ever knew? We want to learn, but it's easy to get scared away.

Another try:

eis nihil malum potest videri

eis = to those
nihil = nothing
malum = evil, bad, singular
potest = can ( ? )
videri = seem ( ? )

To those nothing can seem bad ( ? )

Mal

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
One entry found for perverse.

Main Entry: per·verse Pronunciation: (")p&r-'v&rs, 'p&r-" Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin perversus, from past participle of pervertere

Mal I had the audacity to participate considering my minute knowledge of Latin. I find reading the posts most challenging even if I don't give it the time necessary to search for meaning and more. It would take me YEARS. This is advanced Latin for me as I had none in school but I know the Pater Noster and Hail Mary in Latin. Ha!

Traude, Ginny, Latin is a lively language and a verb at the end of a sentence gives it more punch. I notice that more now as I read French. This discussion will teach me tremendously.

Eloïse

I am speculating this afternoon. Since petunt is third person plural and from that we get a plural pronoun subject namely," those who" then why not "themselves" for se ipsi or autem. It would agree with the preceding material which reads as follows; For those who have not the means within themselves of a ... This would give " Those who seek all good within themselves"...

One more thought: "nihil" meaning nothing might also be translated as "not something". Am I reaching too far?

Ginnicus: Keep up your present approach. You are doing me some good. Justinian.

Yes MAL, that is the approach, if I understand GINNY's original directions correctly.

The adventure lies in the reconstruction of each word, and in divining the sense of the phrase. There are literal translations, which can sound clumsy, and there are more elaborate, freer translations which make what is said come alive in any age.

As I've said, this morning I looked for the first time at the Latin text and the English translation given at the bottom of the header. The Latin beginning of our chosen phrase, preceding "autem ..." interested me. I mean to parse that for my own pleasure when I have the time.

That English translation is superb, in my professional opinion. But nota bene, the word "perversity" is not found in it. quod erat demonstrandum.

Again, without denying the obvious, I believe that in the context of these musings about aging and the Roman writers' reaction to it, "perversity" is simply too strong a term, and too literal.

HO! Lookit Malryn and Justin GO! Wow, Malryn you are right, try google or real dictionary.com, and even they will leave you hanging with some of them (like eis). I have looked for Latin dictionaries on my modem till my eyes have crossed where a person could plug in the word and get a general meaning and the Latin dictionary at realdictionary.com (link in heading) and google set up as in the heading have helped the most. I'll keep looking.

The next time we have an eis I'll translate it ahead of time, my bad! I think the others are all there. The object being that people will keep their own word lists or recognize them and the structure when it repeats.

Eloise! L'audace! L'audace! Toujours l'audace! I love your take on it, This discussion will teach me tremendously I think we will all learn something I learned a bunch of stuff today trying to find a dictionary, fascinating stuff, but I did not copy it so will have to go back, something about what the sherrif says when he tries to serve a writ, something about videri habet? Legal terms, I'll go look them up again. Latin Lives Today.

Patricia Westerdale, get your 3 years of Latin self IN here this minute! hahahaha Do you find a different etymology for perversity than perverse? She perversely asked?

Ho check out Justin!! I am speculating this afternoon. Since petunt is third person plural and from that we get a plural pronoun subject namely," those who" then why not "themselves" for se ipsi or autem. It would agree with the preceding material which reads as follows; For those who have not the means within themselves of a ... This would give " Those who seek all good within themselves"... Yes it sure would! (Does your translation indicate good as plural? like all good things...or?) I like the way you put things in context!

One more thought: "nihil" meaning nothing might also be translated as "not something". Am I reaching too far? I don't know, give us your best shot, where do you want to take it? ,br>
Isn't it exciting, I am reaching a bit too with my own definition of peto, it will be SO fun to get to the end of the sentence so we can discuss the philosophy and the variations with our different "reachings" with the possible meanings, you guys are SMOKIN' here this afternoon, anybody else?

Traude, the English translation visible in the heading of the passage we are reading is from the Loeb? It was just easier for me to put up, and we haven't gotten to to the clause with "perversitas" in it yet, but when we do, if we put up the Loeb as we started, the word "perversity" will appear. The translation you are speaking of, the Schuckgrugh or whatever it is, is totally different.

If you prefer a different translation from the Loeb, we can substitute whatever word you like for another? We can all offer our own interpretations of this sentence, as soon as we finish it! How about that?

We'll be to that clause soon.

I forgot to subscribe to the "Come On Over" at the end of Ginny's message and was wondering where everyone went!!

Oh, well. I think I'm kind of lost, anyway.. LOL

My "test" translation was: "Who, moreover, for every good cause, commits oneself to strive toward"

Seemed jumbled to me. If I reconstruct that to read..... "Who, moreover, commits himself to strive toward every good cause"...

I'm totally guessing...now I'll look and see the other posts.

Whew! This is going to be a JOURNEY!

I tell you what? Let's do this? After we discuss the philosophy behind each sentence (in English) let's write our OWN translation for the heading? In 2004 English?

ginny

PRANCER!! There you are, I wondered anxiously if you had left, yes yes a JOURNEY, a jouney begins with a first step!! You did a nice translation of qui autem omnia bona se ipse petunt: "Who, moreover, commits himself to strive toward every good cause"... If you changed the meaning of petunt from choose to seek what would you think??

Very fluid translation, what do you think using seek?

What's your take on today's eis....???

maybe I better write the others and be sure they can see this?

ginny

"Who, moreover, commits himself to seek every good cause..??"

GINNY....is that what you mean?

No, I'll try the eis..... haven't had time to look at that.

I had posted and it disappeared that I really liked the way you went about your "test" where you kind of spelled it out as you went, that's closer! (Remember that old "you're getting warm?" Warmer? HOT! hahaah Burning up!

Where are you getting commit?

ginny

GINNY:

I don't know where I'm getting "commit"....maybe a thought like "has decided to"...??? I'll have it in a whole other language before I'm finished!!....hahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

Now..."eis nihil malum polest videri".....ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm how about: "Sees no grain of evil?" Now, that's WRONG!!!!

PLEASE TEACHER??!! (read my translations and WEEP)

Ginny

I look up each word, then try to construct a sentence that makes sense.

eis nihil malum potest videri

that nothing appears to have much influence

Prancer you are, hands down, the most creative Latin scholar present, I wish I had your facility, we'll enable the Prancer Penalty when we get ready to do our final version, very smooth! OK on eis, go back a bit and see Malryn's LAST shot at it and then Justin's and see what Prancer can Produce!

hahahaah On your first one, there's no commit but the "deciding" while also not there? Is important? Very? So you're sort of on the right track also the commit force, so you are SENSING it, I mean to say you are naturally getting it? I don't know if that makes sense. qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt, who however all good (things) from themselves seek.....when you combine that with our begining of "For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome; ..." you get something like.... on the other hand, those who seek all good (things) from themselves... .but the seeking part? Is where your commit comes in and your choosing so you're on the right track, I found a definition of peto that shocked me, it means a lot of things, we will enjoy that.

On your eis, check out Malryn's last post on it and Justin's and see what magic you can work?

Good job!!

Well I spoke too soon, Moxie has a fluid facility too! Well tried, our Moxie, now this one wants the verb to be "is able" instead of appears, you are right about appears or seems but you need the main verb to be potest which is "is able,"? And you don't want to forget eis, (which to my shame I did not translate initially) which means "to them," eis nihil malum potest videri SO@! (strains the BRAIN doesn't it, I love it,) what might you make out of that using eis as "to them," and postest as "is able" as a Prancer Test, read it from left to right first?

You guys are SO creative with your translations, they're so fluid, mine are so literal.

...to them nothing bad can videri

Google gives for videri translation the motto "esse quam videri", (to be rather than to seem).
Bona is clearly singular. Does that mean that "those who", "themselves", and "to them" are inappropriate?

Must the adjective agree in number and gender with the subject?

I found a copy of Cassell's on B&N for 6 dollars and ordered it. Is the Oxford or Lewis preferred?

Add nothing, from left to right? Ok?

To those, nothing (noone) has the ability to see bad things.

Are you sure this ain't Greek?

Hey listen to me, I should be spouting this right off the top of my head. I watched a mini-series today on the Last Days of Pompeii. Not one bloody word of Latin did they offer me- but I kind of liked the "For those of us about to die, we salute you."

In my case, for those of you who wade thru my translations "I salute you."

Greek is easier. At least that was my experience. Waving to the Latin scholars.

It's dormio (sp) for me!! Tomorrow, then!

Ave atque vale, Andrea off for a week! How will we survive without your cheery efforts, you'll just have to take Cicero with you!

(Do you know how to pronounce Cicero in Latin? hahahaah) Thought that would give you a kick!

Farewell Prancerus, we'll be watching for your interpretations when we see the rosy fingered dawn, (or was that Homer) haahah

Waving right back, Maryal, te kines?

hahaaha

Justin you are a BALL o fire, I'm not sure what you mean by the Oxford or the Lewis? I have the non concise one and the title page etc is completely gone, but it's about 900 pages, it's not a big book tho? The modern version of it seems to be that Simpson editor? Even the binding of mine is worn away, seems to say Funk and Wagnalls, but half of the gold lettering is gone (we wouldn't be getting OLD would we? NAH! Cicero would jerk us up for saying that!) Where are you seeing Oxford and Lewis? I went to the B&N page and can't find it?

Andrea To those, nothing (noone) has the ability to see bad things. You're creative, too, I marvel at the fun stuff you all come up with, and you know what? You're closer than you think, must be watching all those movies on Pompeii, keep watching and let's see who comes up with it.

Justin you said, to them nothing bad can videri Right. hahaha

Google gives for videri translation the motto "esse quam videri", (to be rather than to seem). Neat, hah? Tudy quoted that, it's the motto of North Carolina.

Bona is clearly singular. Bona is not in this clause, right?

Does that mean that "those who", "themselves", and "to them" are inappropriate? Nope!!

(Isn't this fun? I'm not sure how I got in this role, all of you chirp in contiually now,and help out?) No, those who and themselves and to them are all great.

Must the adjective agree in number and gender with the subject? Adjectives normally agree with their nouns, that is the word they modify, in ...I can hear you all screaming in chorus: gender! number! and case!!

bona is not singular? Bona is a substantive? It stands for good (things) understood? It is a neuter plural. So when you read it out just saying the meanings and you see "all good" you actually are closer than you realize!

What does THAT do to your thinking, this is so fun it's like watching people think!

See you all tomorrow!

Can't wait to see what you come up with!

Ginny, I would pronounce Cicero like this Seesero, but perhaps in Latin it might be pronounced: Keechero.

Eloïse

My Latin dictionary has been found! It's a Cassell and not as good as I'd like, but it's whole lot better than what I had.

GINNY, videri is a verb? What's the infinitive? Is it "videri"? What tense is this, and what person is this, if it is not an infintive?

Full of questions.

Mal

ELOISE, I would say KEE-KAY-RO with the accent on the first syllable.

Mal

Get out, Malryn! Well done! Cassells, I love Cassells, it's a good one, it's like the Micropedia of the Encyclopedia Britannica: gives you the facts quickly. Which edition, I wish my title page and the first of the A's were not missing!

OK full of questions, that's the spirit!

I'm going to leave up the Cicero pronunciation question for the heck of it, and see all the creative shots at it, what fun.

Status Quo: haahahah I figure if we're reading Latin we can use Latin phrases, ok, now IF you're a Non Latinist but you still are reading the English, hang on we're about to finish the sentence later on this afternoon, please Everybody keep referring to the heading, it has as far as we have gone in English and Latin and the box shows what we're working on now. I love the way you guys are working on the Latin itself alone and then coming in and helping.

Like Traude, I love to parse, so when we get finished the entire first sentence maybe Traude, you'd parse it for us, it will be interesting to the group, both those translating and those reading the English.

But today we're tying up the phrase in the box because I'm not sure we're all to that point. I need to know if we're moving too slowly?

Tudy, quo vadis??!!? I'd like for more persons than me to be helping!

Malryn, yes videri is a verb. That's the passive form of video, to see, it's the present passive infinitive. When video is in the passive, (in addition to meaning being seen) it means SEEM or to appear, as in seem to be.

(Am I the only one having to use a magnifying glass to even SEE the entries in these dictionaries? I need a magnifying SHEET!)

Back this afternoon, what fun, how it is coming, All? I'll be back later on this afternoon, have two classes out of town, meanwhile everybody help each other!

TUDYYYYYYY and TRAUDE!! Come on in and help out!

ginny

Salve ! GINNY, I wcan't reply to the last posts in any detail now. I am on my way out the door. So, briefly -

MAL, I am glad you found the Cassells. Yes, videri is a verb, and it is the infinitive, and that is the most basic form of any verb (in ANY language) BEFORE tenses and conjugation.

For years we pronounced the "c" like 'tsi'; then came the monumental change to 'k'. Even the professors were resistant at first. But ...

In "our" Kikero, the "i" sounded like the "i" in "kick, not as in "peek".

I suddenly got the idea from the qui autem--- that a is a short form of ab(or maybe ab is long for a) I still can't figure what Ipsi goes with-Latin, the language of the living end-it's so different when we at least I want to grab at what comes first-- I wondered if 'they who seek all good from themselves -then the new 'nothing can seem(videri is passive of the verb video to see and in passive voice it can mean seem I think) bad to them. To me this seems to mean if you look to yourself for supplying what you need, as long as you have yourself,nothing is discomforting.Ginny,is that close?

HO! Tudy, VERY CLOSE!! I can see that it's all coming back to you with a roar! (ISN'T this fun, I can hardly wait to get up in the morning and give the new clause a go). I'd say your literal translation is pretty darn perfect, and I'd very much like to discuss your interpretation of it, THIS is going to be such fun: do you assume that what a person needs is all he'd look for? In other words...I love the slant you put on that, can't WAIT to discuss the English!!! Don't forget it! Interesting philosophical slant!

We have one more clause to go, tomorrow, and THEN those of you who missed taking Latin, we'll discuss the philosophy and ramifications of what he's saying. I had a TIME with that extra ipsi too, Tudy, doesn't seem to fit in English as you say but when you see it in Cicero, it does seem clear, isn't that maddening? hahaaha

Traude, thank you, more fun with the Cicero, thank you for the sound of c pronounced, so what do the rest of you think, how would Cicero be pronounced? Do you remember The Student Prince? They had a song (was it called The Student's Song) before which they sang about our man Cicero, can't get it out of my head!

Ok if you're just joining us (and we hope you are) we're doing a bold new experiment and we want YOU to help!

We're reading, clause by clause, slowly, a new clause a day (or whenever we're ready to move on), in an atmosphere of support and encouragement, altho, being Latinists, we WILL get in happy debate and discussion (you know how we Latin students are) over translations, hahaah I miss that? I miss arguing over meanings, I've seen grown men not speak to each other for years over disagreements over translation ahahaha we won't go THAT far but we may enjoy a little give and take, the operative word is encouragemnt, it's been a long time since any of us saw a Latin word (and some of you never took it) so let's be encouraging.

If this works, it will go against all the odds, I can't think of a better group to try with, give it your best, and let's have fun.

That said, last call for today's clause, seen in the heading, along with the one before that and the translation to date, please get in the habit of reading the heading daily?

SO are you ready to move on, or not? Any questions? What is your translation of the line beginning eis ?

It seems the first, the "autem" phrase is not clear to all yet; perhaps not all are ready to forge ahead with the second phrase ? I'll take my cues from GINNY.

Those working on the second phrase will find an explanation of "videri" (as opposed to "videre") in their grammars under deponent verbs. This will inevitably get us into the passive voice ...

In English, the passive voice has not nearly the linguistic importance it does in Latin, in French or in Italian; as a matter of fact, American writers are told to avoid the passive voice at all cost, even though (I submit with due respect) they may not always recognize it for what it is, and (especially) isn't = NOT a boogeyman.

For a clarificatin of the infinitive, just compare "errare humanum est" = "to err is human"

Both the Latin and the English verb are shown in their infinitive form.

Thank you Traude. In deponent verbs, I see "vereor" with principal parts "vereor vereri veritus sum. I find the present infinitive form of "vereri" very close to videri. Here is my shot. "For those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome. Those who seek all good from within themselves can(to) see nothing bad,..." Salvel

Well done Justin and Tudy, it looks like you've solved the case! Nice seque to the deponent vereor, (to fear) Justin, which are always passive, as contrast.

So it seems now we're ready for the end of our first sentence and our Non Latinists here will enjoy discussing this marvelous insight, and saying whether or not they AGREE. IS the glass half full or half empty only depending on who looks at it? THAT'S the challenge for tomorrow, but today we have one more puzzle to piece through.

Here is the Loeb translation which tends to be literal, for where we are: Cicero has said:

qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt,
eis nihil malum potest videri

"For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome; on the other hand, to those who seek all good from themselves, [to them (eis)] nothing can seem evil ...

... quod naturae necessitas adferat.

So here's the END, nothing can seem evil...............................

Is this something YOU think also? What's he saying?

Notice the ending on natura!!

quod means "which" and refers to its antecedent, "nothing." Give it your best shot can you believe it, we're about to conclude our first Latin sentence and discuss it! YAY!

ginny

Ginny:

This is my interpretation of the complete sentence:

Who, however ask of themselves that which is good, nothing appears to have much influence

quod naturae necessitas adferat. because obligations convey character.

quod = conjuntive = because, as far as, in so far as

adferat = verb = bring,carry, convey, bring word, allege,announce, produce, case

naturae = noun - birth, character, nature

necessitas = need, necessity, inevitability, difficult, straits, poverty, obligation, bond

Oh! Oh! I think my translations need renovation!

I was going to say for: "quod naturae neccesitas adferat"

"Whose nature necessitates that quality"

Don't know where I got that from. Must go back to the beginning of all my translations and try them together. Would it make sense?

Doubt it!

quod = which
naturae = birth, nature, world ( plural ? object of preposition? )
necessitas = want, need, poverty ( noun )
adferat = ( ? ) Verb. Except for what Moxie said, I don't know the meaning of this word.

quod naturae necessitas adferat.
which takes want from the world. ( ? )

Piano, piano, as they say in Italian. Let's not rush ! The sequence of the Latin words does not necessarily correspond to our sentence construction. To begin with the last verb, ADFERAT.

My Latin-German dictionary says : for "adf" see "aff...". The verb is afferre = to bring, to bring about, to produce

My Latin dictionary lists only 'afferre' not the warning about 'adf'; afferre = infinitive. 'adferat" is the 3rd person singular of the present tense.

necessitas = necessity, inevitability. That is the subject

naturae = the genitive of natura

quod = as MAL indicated.

The meaning becomes clearer when we change the sequence to "quod necessitas naturae adferat", which is perfectly permissible.

Literally translated

what (or that which) nature's inevitability brings There are lots more elegant renditions possible.

The text is concerned with aging which none of us can escape, and people's reaction to it, that's why it is no less relevant for us 2 millennia later.

We have yet to link this last subclause to "eis nhil ... etc).

For my own pleasure and the sense of completeness, I have parsed the entire sentence, beginning with "Quibus enim nihil est in ipsis opis ..." and will offer it later.

P.S. MAL, "birth" is partus, ortus, nascendi initium

Thank you, TRAUDE. the version of Cassell's Latin Dictionary I have has as definitions of "natura":

birth
nature
natural qualities of anything
possibility
the laws of nature
the world.

And more.

Adferat was a little daunting until I figured out that ad was a prefix meaning to toward or about. Fero means "bring or carry" Ferat turns out to be 1st conjugation, third person, present indicative and that means a "he she or it" kind of subject. I see "naturae" as the subject. All that rationalizing called parsing, I think, leads me to: "which nature brings of necessity" or which nature must, of necessity, bring." Freely translated: nothing which is natural can be evil.

MAL, yes of course, good dictionaries do give more than one meaning; there are after all nuances to words in any language. No one knows that better than writers who are always looking for what the French rightly call "le mot juste" = just the right word, the perfect word.

In the case of natura, though, nature (as in Mother Nature) does come to mind first, especially in this context: Aging is inescapable, a law of nature indeed, as Cassells says = necessitas naturae.

Hi,I think the last phrase is what one of you said-which the necessity of nature brings forward. I think Cicero has here one of the best anitdotes to our senior aches grumbling. I was trying to think of something to help you who have not had Latin and trying to show you how endings make a meaning like Puella pulchra nautam amat.=The pretty girl loves the sailor but Puellae pulchrae nautam amant= the pretty girls love the sailor Nauta puellam pulchram amat. The sailor loves the pretty girl.\Amd so the endings show how the Latin is used. I just had had a thought-we learned of the Argonauts and now we have the Astronauts-sailors of the stars. This is really fun .

I want my homework! Where's our teacher? Trying to translate this Latin is the most fun I've had in ages, so where did she go? Do you think if I brought her an apple she'd come back?

Mal

An apple, a pear, a plum, a cherry, any good thing to make us all merry! hahaahah I thought we did not HAVE any teachers but instead were helping each other? hahaah

This is the loveliest discussion, I have the most email on this from people who are happily reading along and lurking but hesitant about trying their hand, to them I say your translations are as good as mine, come on in, the water's fine!

(That, I do believe is a poem!)

Ok hang on I have one more river to cross, the Wally Lamb Experience continues, the Wally Wave has come on shore again, a few more odds n ends to tie up and I'm here, MEANWHILE, till later, let's discuss YOUR renditions, YOUR understandings of this first sentence in ENGLISH starting with

"For to those who have not the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome; on the other hand, to those who seek all good things from themselves, to them (eis) nothing can seem bad which........."

ending up with your own translation?!?

Let's rephrase that, and put that in modern common parlance of 2004, and let's hear what you think he's saying for the entire philosophy, whether or not you agree with it, comparisions to other things you've read (wait till I get in here on the Helibrun) and in general.

IS he talking about the glass half empty and does it make a hill o beans difference HOW you see things?

The floor is yours, let's discuss the philosophy and I'll be right back!

ginny

WAITING FOR THE SCHOOL BELL TO RING!!

Honestly stand here and ring de bell and Miss Prancer prances on the doorstep, ignoring it! snort! hahahaah back anon, read post 72, pretend Cicero came back to the world and wanted his message told and YOU are the only person who can explain it, what would YOU say?

What would I say for Cicero??

"Where there's a will; there's a way."

Regardless of what age, what the circumstances, if you can train yourself to find the best way to handle your life, that would equal happiness, as it is also freedom. I mean to say, your own choices. I don't think there is anyone else who can accomplish this FOR you. It has to come from within; probably one of life's best lessons.

I wonder if the Great Man would agree?

Every age is difficult for those who cannot find happiness within themselves. On the other hand , those who look for happiness will see nothing bad in growing older.

Explain or translate ?

Explaining, interpreting is easier, assuming the respective piece of literature is properly understood.

And THERE we have in a nutshell the basic difference between "translating" (the WRITTEN word) and "interpreting" (the SPOKEN word), a difference which is generally ignored in our English-only environment and, where realized, insufficiently understood.

I think this means 'which the inevitabilities of nature bring'. 'Naturae' is genitive,sg. 'Nothing is able to appear evil to them which (the whole previous clause) the inevitabilities of nature bring'. Camicat

I agree that Cicero's writing here means you have to look within yourself for happiness as Justin said but I also wonder if it means as you get older and nature imposes its limitations on you,you can't look at what others do and feel unhappy that you can't do as they do.I also read an article in some magazine somewhere that you should consider agerelated difficulties as medals for having lived this long.Sometimes I have to admit I'd like to give some of these back.

Whoop! Welcome, camicat! What a joy to see you here today!
I think your translation is perfect, I certainly couldn't improve on it!

Delighted to make your acquaintance!

I'm sorry I've been SO delayed, we have SO much exciting news here on SeniorNet and in the Books that it costs me my first love, which is Latin, how I am enjoying having to do the DISCIPLINE of seeing this old friend again, and I'm just delighted to see all the translations and interpretations and I think you are ALL right on with your different takes on this.

Tudy, I really like your take on it, what do you mean by medals?

I thought he might also be saying that you view the world thru the glasses you put on, if you have the means within yourself...what does he mean by "means?"... if you have the means within yourself of happiness, then nothing nature can throw at you, with all its capriciousness, will you see as bad, you'll paint a positive picture, the glass will be half full. But if you don't have this... (and did you notice he used TWO reflexives in that sentence, he REALLY wants , or so I thought, you to get the point that you have to look YOURSELF for what's within it has to come from YOU not somebody else) ...if you don't have it, then everything is a trial, not a joy.

It's ATTITUDE, says Cicreo, or that's how I read it, and YOU are in charge of your attitude.

That's how I read this, I'll get the heading fixed in a trice and tomorrow (WHEE, we've finished up our FIRST SENTENCE IN LATIN that some of us have read in the past 50 years!!! Pretty darn good!!!) I'll get the heading fixed and tomorrow we'll move on to our next clause, but let me ask you, as we're pausing for breath here, IS Cicero right about that? In every circumstance?

ginny

Ginny: Can we sum up the first sentence by just saying:

To Thy Ownself Be True!

But the sentence does not start with "autem ... etc.", it begins thusly :

Quibus enim nihil est in ipsis opis ad bene beateque vivendum, eis omnis aetas gravis est; and CONTINUES with qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt, eis nihil malum ...

A comparison is being made here between two groups of people: those who don't have the inner resources for living well and happily - for them every age is a burden; but there are those (or others) who seek the good within themselves and who see no harm in what nature inevitably imposes (on us all).

A very free rendition, I admit, but I believe this is the intended meaning.

Right! Correct, Traude, and very similar to the translation that's in the heading now, thank you for that, I think we're all on the same page here, and that's great.

I'm proud of us all, and tomorrow, we'll move on we may even move on to TWO clauses, not sure...did you want to parse a clause or two of what we've just done, Traude?

I still need to catch up here.

Moxie, I am also reminded of the old song "Look for the silver lining," I am not quite sure that Cicero is saying that we never see ANY bad in what happens to us in life, but he sure seems to be saying something remarkably similar, that takes a LOT of attitude adjustment, do you think this attitude as a precept is still viable today??

GINNY, a quick comment.

I am sure there is truth in what Cicero says in the text. People react differently to advancing age; some are afraid of the inevitable but hide their fear; some - though perhaps fewer in number - seem less preoccupied with appearances. In this day and age where youth worship has reached unprecedented heights, the knowledge that all of Nature's "mistakes" can be surgically corrected is an immense relief for many.

My mother was a beautiful woman; I realized it early on when people turned around to stare at her and as men kissed her hand at parties. One day, out of the blue, I heard her exclaim (a little melodramatically, I thought), "Oh, how cruel is old age !" She was 50 at the time. I thought it was ridiculous and pretended not to have heard.

Ginny, I thought the "medals" referred to in the article I read were like the rings around the tree that signify its age-so the limitations one finds as age advances are indications of the years we've been granted to live-

Ginny

About the question "Is that attitude as a precept as viable today?"

Well, my thought is "nothing wrong with that attitude, at any point in time"...except...

People live longer (or are kept alive longer) today than back in Cicero's time. One can have a very good attitude all their lives, however, sometimes find themselves in a helpless position (for various reasons) and I wonder if the good attitude will work then.

Just a thought.

I remembered something this week out of a sixty-five year haze. Verb listings in the dictionary are given in the first person singular form and in the infinitve. One finds "videri" listed as "videor". The werb is listed as Deponent and passive. Is "videor" the first person singular in passive voice? It must be.

I think it is clear Cicero is talking about old age in this first sentence. Traude's mother is a perfect example of this Ciceronian thought. However distraught one may be by the effects of age, many people, especially handsome women, age well. Lines add character to the face while good posture and carriage are attractive remedys.

JUSTIN, quite right.

videre is to see, the tenses we had to memorize are video (pres.), vidi (imperf.), visus (participle). (remember Caesar : veni, vidi, vici)

videri is passive, to be seen, or to appear, to seem. The tense forms are videor, visus sum.

In the regular a-conjugation, amare - to love is the active voice, amari - to be loved - the passive voice.

Present tense of amare is amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis amant, present tense of the passive is amor, amaris, amatur, amamur, amamini amantur.

Yes, my mother aged well; she was much admired, elegant, dignified, presented a wonderful face to the world.. Only the family realized that she was unhappy and depressed: she rebelled against the inevitability of aging. It was an all-consuming obsession I neither understood nor shared.

Again I do apologize, you may now all know about Lorrie Gorg , our friend, compatriot and co Books Discussion Leader here in our Books sections, who has not long to live now, (if you don't please come to the Community Center), we're all kind of numb and so that's one reason that there is a lack of enthusiasm around but I think this morning it might be comforting to return to our beloved Latin and Cicero, actually, and to spend some time in mental discipline with rich reward.

I like all of your interpretations, and I think some modern….would they? applications might be "Look for the silver lining…" (remember that old song?) Make lemonade out of lemons, and I was struck this morning by the use of all good things and bad things and a similar quote from scripture: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God Rom 8:28 (KJV)"

Here again we see a different slant on the same type of thinking, all things work together for good, in this case those who love God, in Cicero's case, writing B.C., he thought you should look to find it within yourself. Kind of reminds me of Gandhi who would sit and wait for that inner voice.

No matter how you slice it, I loved the humor here, tho he probably did not intend it as such, but if you have a sour attitude and outlook, "every age is burdensome," and don't we know people to whom everything is a giant whine?

So let's move on today and enjoy tackling, you did SUCH a great job with completing our first sentence, let's move on and try two more clauses, the beginning of a new sentence!

I think we might need two here? Let's have a look at this, now:

Quo in genere est in primus, senectus,
quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant

I put my own comma after in primis, because if you were speaking English, you'd pause there, and I thought that might be helpful.

Now most of us will have to look up adipiscantur, I sure did, note the passive ending? It's a deponent verb, passive in form but active in meaning.

Read it from left to right and don't jump around looking for the verb till it's time to put it into English.

Another memory trick: on these verbs? If they end in t, they are singular (so the subject is he she or it) if they end in nt they are plural, (so the subject is they?) adipiscantur has the nt? So does optant, but look at those singular words, a fine puzzle this morning!

You see those words starting with QU? Now recall that these are some form of "WHO" or "WHICH". Quo……note the o there on the end? In this case Quo is a relative, I want to say adjective, relating or referring back to something in the previous sentence. We have the ongoing translation as far as we've gone, always in the heading, so refer to it if you like to try to get some sense out of it?

If you want a wonderful review of qui, quae, quod you can find it in the Companion to Wheelock ONLINE link in the heading from Dr. Grote, and he'll give a complete declension of all the forms, a wonderful reference.

Let's see what we can do with this one!!!

ginny

Just catching up a bit with your remarks, thank you for your sentiments, I liked all of your takes on the philosophy, and Prancer, actually I think quite a few of the ancients lived long lives, as hard as that is to believe given the continual statements of what modern medicine has done for us, but not the great proportions that do now, that's a very good point you made, ARE things, I want to say, so different?

Cicero's dates were 106-43 BC, so that made him 63 when he was killed. Augustus lived from 63 BC to 14 AD, so that would make him 77 when he died, I think it would be interesting to see the figures for life expectancy then and compare it to those today, there is NO contest on the majority, but many Romans somehow (I have no idea how) managed to live long lives. Seneca was born in 55BC and died somewhere between 37 and 41 AD, so that would make him somewhere around 92 at the least, I think there were a LOT of those who lived long lives, but my memory is somewhat murky on the others this morning.

Tudy thank you for explaining the medals, Camicat, thank you for pointing out that nature is ending in ae we now need to start paying some attention to the ENDS of the words, that ae is important, see Grote on the declension of nouns.

Moxie, and Malryn and Justin and Prancer, I have really enjoyed watching the way your minds work as you figure out the puzzle, that's the same patterns, exactly, everybody's goes thru, and as we add on more and more, you can see Justin there with the videor, (it's interesting that neither Cassell's nor Lewis and Short consider videor as a separate verb but rather the passive of video, Traude do you and Justin see it listed separately, and if so in what dictionaries?)

This is interesting.

In a discussion of active and passive voice, you recall they are easy to remember, in the ACTIVE voice (remember the old cartoons in the Latin for Americans? Of the donkey kicking the man?) in the active voice the person acts, and in the PASSIVE voice he's acted upon.

Thus, ACTIVE: The man kicked the donkey and

PASSIVE: The man was kicked by the donkey, two completely different things, and shame on him!

Traude thank you for that picture of your mother and aging, very apropos, I think, many thanks, love this discussion and the spirit you all bring here, let's try TWO more clauses today, tough ones, too.

ginny

GINNY, briefly to your question :

Yes, videre and videri are listed separately

--->in my trusted, very thorough Langenscheidt (Latin-German German-Latin) dictionary,

--->in my "Formenlehre" (Accidence) titled Vita Romana, and

--->in my Latin-English, English-Latin dictionary by Alastair Wilson, recently acquired. It is rather "streamlined" as compared to my old standbys.

In haste.

I'd like to take a stab at our new sentence-I finally thought omnes was the subject of the last 2 verbs so-"in which class is old age(can't do anything with in primis)which all desire that they might obtain. Could in primis mean among the first?

My opening thought is, " all men wish to reach old age ..." I am working from right to left and that is against your advice, I know, but "genere" meaning to procreate and engender eludes me at this point. Tudy, are you translating "genere" as class?

Honestly, I am a poor student. I just don't have the time to reread the posts I've missed just yet, so, I'm jumping in guessing.

Quo in genere est in primus, senectus,would be= who (haven't checked what it refers back to yet) otherwise ( else) is at first at an old age???
Quam= which
ut=so or so that adipiscantur (no clue)
ad= toward or to
omnes= all,every
optant= (OK it ends in nt so it's plural) is it op, power to help or ops plural wealth?

Oh boy, Professeur, talk about fracturing the Roman language here!

Which is so that all ?/ with wealth, or power?

JUSTIN, the verb you are thinking of is generare, of the a-conjunction.

TUDY is on the right course here with the noun genus, generis = class, category. Remember 'sui generis'.

More later after the first cuppa.

Quo in genere est in primus, senectus, quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant

Who especially the aged in the family in order to gain the desires of all men

gen.ere V 3 1 PRES ACTIVE INF 0 X gen.ere V 3 1 PRES PASSIVE IMP 2 S gen.ere V 3 1 FUT PASSIVE IND 2 S geno, genere, -, - V give birth to, bring forth, bear; beget; be born (PASSIVE); gener.e N 3 2 ABL S N genus, generis N N birth; kind, class, rank; mode, method; sort, style; race, family; noble birth

(in primis => especially

senectus N 3 1 NOM S F senectus, senectutis N F old age; old men collectively; shed snake skin;

ut CONJ ut CONJ to (+ subj), in order that/to; how, as, when, while; even if;

adipisc.antur V 3 1 PRES SUB 3 P adipiscor, adipisci, adeptus sum V DEP gain, secure, win, obtain; arrive at, come up to/into; inherit; overtake;

omn.es N 3 3 NOM P C omn.es N 3 3 VOC P C omn.es N 3 3 ACC P C omnis, omnis N C all men (pl.), all persons;

opt.ant V 1 1 PRES ACTIVE IND 3 P opto, optare, optavi, optatus V choose, select; wish, wish for, desire;

MOXIE, see my previous post. "genere" is NOT a verb nor part of one. Instead it is a form of the noun genus, generis.

While "genero" is the first person singular all right, the verb is generAre (think of the derivatives 'generation', 'generator' etc.)

Traude:

Look at my definitions of genere more closely, you will see that at the end I do show it as a NOUN:

gen.ere V 3 1 PRES ACTIVE INF

0 X gen.ere V 3 1 PRES PASSIVE IMP

2 S gen.ere V 3 1 FUT PASSIVE IND 2 S

geno, genere, -, - V give birth to, bring forth, bear; beget; be born (PASSIVE);

gener.e N 3 2 ABL S N genus, generis N N birth; kind, class, rank; mode, method; sort, style; race, family; noble birth

Class, yes, but what class? Ah ha. The old age class. No? How about the class of those who see no bad in what nature brings?

"Wherefore in this class is old age which all men wish to reach..."

WHOO Lookit Justin go, that was MY own question, do you think he is right? Well done, Justin, great minds run together (or should I say "classy" minds run together! hahaahah)Pretty darn good translation there!

It really is a joy isn't it, to struggle again and work hard with an old love (Latin) which we KNOW will yield rich reward if we can just discipline ourselves enough? I love it, it's very much like trying to master the cello.

I look forward to coming in every day and seeing what you are doing, it's fun.

Traude and Justin, thank you for letting us know what dictionaries you use, I have never seen videor as a stand alone entry.

I DO now see what Justin was talking about with the "Oxford" Dictionary, he asked, which is better? They are both "Oxford" publications but the "Oxford" is much newer, released in 1983, two years after I retired from teaching Latin and so I don't know much about it. It appears to be about 30 pages bigger, at 2150 pages, while the Lewis and Short itself is the size of typing paper, almost 4 inches thick and weighs 7 pounds, not something you're likely to carry about with you.

I see the Oxford does include Latin till 200 AD but the Lewis and Short continues to have the ecclesiastical Latin. The Perseus Project, the Online Classicist resource from Tufts uses the Lewis and Short, so I'd have to say that most of the Latin Departments across the country still refer to Lewis and Short, as departmental dictionary.

I thought I was big time spending 200 bucks for mine but I see that the Oxford is 200 British pounds, so it wins. When I go back to Oxford this year, I will seek out Blackwells and find the Oxford Dictionary and look up videor! Hahahah The tale of the warring dictionaries.

Most sites and most people consider Cassell's the most useful and user friendly of any of them, it's much smaller and more manageable and more than enough for our use. The print in the Lewis and Short is microscopic on 2018 thin pages like a Bible, I think, Justin in answer to your question I don't know? I guess it would depend on what you wanted to spend and how much ecclesiastical Latin you hoped to read?

Tudy, I think you are right on omnes being the subject of both verbs and I personally took in primis as "primarily" , I think moxie has it below as well, kind of reminds me of imprimis, I need to look up the etymology of that one as I don't know what's meant by it in English!hahahaha

Great job with which all desire that they might obtain

Justin, right to left, that intrigued me so much today I spent most of today in my classes reading The Iliad right to left and Paradise Lost right to left trying to see if you had something there, it's an intriguing idea.

I won't keep saying read left to right, but if you all are having trouble, read left to right .hahahahaha

Andrea, is it op, power to help or ops plural wealth? I think you want opto, which means want or wish or hope or desire, it's in the plural there and Tudy has Omnes (all men) as the subject if that helps? I'm glad to see you back.

Moxie you have done a LOT of work and thank you Traude for those hints as well.

Ok you guys are running thru these two clauses faster than I thought? ! ? Moxie ok you have

Quo in genere est in primus, senectus, quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant

"Who especially the aged in the family in order to gain the desires of all men.."

Ok now quo is not "who" in this particular clause? Quo as I said earlier, normally means who or which, BUT you can see it agreeing with the word which comes after it, genere, which makes it an adjective.

Since it is an adjective here, it modifies or agrees with genere, somebody above had it (I love the way you all come in with your own work and THEN go look back at what the others did, you're a great bunch and you ARE trying)

taking it very literally from left to right, then, we have quo genere…..

Now we know that quo here is an adjective and it modifies genere, and genere is in what case would you say? With that e on it?.....so you can't translate it as "in who class" (genus, generic, n, (genus generis, n, class or kind) so you'd have to say "In which class….." just literal for now,

So now we begin that clause with in which class ….. Now the really TOUGH question we might want to ask ourselves is To what does Quo genere refer back to? Don't look at anybody else's answers, see what YOU think. What "class" has been referred to previously? Puzzler today! Hahahaa

Love it.

ginny

GINNY, since we have to be so very careful not only with every Latin word but indeed with every LETTER, let me ask: Are the words in the assignment du jour in primis or, as newly outlined, ... primUs ? In the linked Latin text at the very bottom of the header, the words are "in primis".

I don't know why we should be concerned with "classes" in the sociological sense. "Groups" or "categories" of people seem to me to be referred to here and how (differently) they feel about the prospect of aging. With due respect, I do not believe this is a "class" question and feel the word should be interpreted in a larger sense.

All of them (OMNES) long for, aspire to, expect to reach old age (OPTANT is the operative VERB here IMHO, the 3rd person plural present tense); some react philosophically to nature's dictate, others whine and complain about any age period in their lives for one reason or another.

Why did you insert a comma in the Latin text after "primus" and before "senectus" ?

It just occured to me that in the Here and Now we call OMNES (requiring the plural verb form) EVERYBODY with a singular verb, as in "Everybody Loves Raymond".

Absolutely right that there's a typo in the box in the heading, Traude, good close reading, we can see it correctly spelled in the text above it which it came from: ANY time you see a typo please don't hesitate to holler, each letter IS important, see my post #100 for the correct spelling and meaning of in primis.

Good point on Everybody Loves Raymond, cute tie in!

ginny

Traude, not sure I understand the question on "class?"

Let's ask you what you think the antecedent of quo genere is? That was Justin's question and a good one.

I put a comma as I said earlier, after senectus, to help (or so I thought) people translating? To set off senectus, mentally, for those who might need the extra help (that's that left to right stuff again, I guess haahahah)

ginny

If I make "sennectus" the subject then; "old age is in this class which everyone wishes to reach," but what to do with primus, ut, and quam. Primus is an adjective meaning "first". Quam and ut are both translated as "how" in my dictionary. My, what a puzzle. Perhaps, "first,old age is in this class which everyone wishes to reach," I think I must decide weather everyone wishes to reach the class or to reach old age. Is there anything in the clause that might help?

Justin what an intriguing post, I love it, If I make "sennectus" the subject then; "old age is in this class which everyone wishes to reach," Well done!

but what to do with primus, ut, and quam. Primus is an adjective meaning "first". As noted in the post above, "primus" in the box was a typo, the correct Latin is in the text above it, "in primis" (plural) which translates roughly as "primarily" or "especially. "

Quam and ut are both translated as "how" in my dictionary.

Quam is a relative pronoun meaning who or which, and the antecedent of IT is XXXX a feminine singular word, have removed it so you all can work the puzzle yourseves! (Besides, I might not be right! hahahaha)

Remember the rule on relative clauses, the pronoun gets its gender and number from its antecedent but it's case from its use in its own clause? That means that quam is referring back to a feminine singular antecedent.

My, what a puzzle. You got that right! hahahaah

Perhaps, "first, old age is in this class which everyone wishes to reach," I think I must decide weather everyone wishes to reach the class or to reach old age. Is there anything in the clause that might help?

I think the definition of genus, generis would be of great interest if we looked at the specifics of it, it means one thing in regards to people and another in regards to things. It refers, in both cases, to a "type or kind" of something? Does that help?

Ut here introduces the feeling of purpose, with optant, all men wish (omnes optant) ....ut....(that) adipiscantur (deponent, which means passive in form and active in meaning).

Here adipiscantur is subjunctive, (Tudy, or Traude, any thoughts on which use of the subjunctive? I can hear my old brain creaking now but I really love it). The marvelous thing, the really clever thing Cicero has done here is to repeat adipiscantur in the form of adeptam: that's the same word? Again agreeing with the mysterious feminine singular antecedent. A puzzle indeed, who can solve it?

Prancerus, quo vadis? Camicat, quo vadis?

Moxie, give it your best! Andrea, what do you think, knowing these things, what fun.

ginnicus

Here's the etymology of imprimis, which in English means in the first place, or is used to introduce a list of items or considerations, from ME imprimis from Latin in pimis the usage dating from the 15th century (that's Webster's 10th Edition)

"Imprimatur" is of a different derivation, and it's imprimatur that I was thinking of, which means "the formula, signed by an official licenser of the press, authorizing the printing of a book; hence as an official license to print, daing from 1640 (OED).

Interessant!

ginny

Ginny

When I look up what your question means (I have an idea already), will try to answer it (promise not to laugh)!

Sorry to have been missing. I had some medical appointments to attend to.

Later....

Ginny

Did you ask "Prancerus, where are you? Hurry! Where are you?"

Not sure. Have to know if that is correct before I dig around and stumble over some sort of primitive answer. LOL.

Pretty darn close, there's no hurry but that's a lovely translation of Whither Goest Thou?

I like it!

ginnicus, who knows the gender of ginnicus is wrong but likes it anyway, it's different.

Ginny - here are my definition of QUO - take your pick

qu.o PRON 1 0 ABL S M qu.o PRON 1 0 ABL S N who?, which?, what?; what kind of?; any; some; someone (preceded by si, nisi, numquid, ne), something, anyone; who/whatever, everyone who, all that, anything that; who?, which one?, what man?, what thing? (type/nature); what kind of; what?; who, which; (relative pronoun); qu.o PRON 1 0 ABL S F any; some; someone (preceded by si, nisi, numquid, ne), something, anyone; who?, which one?, what man?, what thing? (type/nature); what kind of; what?; quo ADV POS quo ADV where, to what place; to what purpose; for which reason, therefore; quo CONJ quo CONJ whither, in what place, where;

these are for QUAM: qu.am PRON 1 0 ACC S F who?, which?, what?; what kind of?; any; some; someone (preceded by si, nisi, numquid, ne), something, anyone; who/whatever, everyone who, all that, anything that; who?, which one?, what man?, what thing? (type/nature); what kind of; what?; who, which; (relative pronoun); quam ADV POS quam ADV how, how much; as, than, quam + superlative as ... as possible; quam CONJ quam CONJ how, than;

this is for UT ut CONJ ut CONJ to (+ subj), in order that/to; how, as, when, while; even if;

The above definitions give a good insight, but when translating I used the context of the words that follow to make a coherent sentence.

Ginny, I was wondering about adipiscantur-I wasn't certain if it was subjunctive introduced by ut for purpose or if it was one of those contrary to fact conditions. Like omnes wish that they obtain(but it's not a fact that they do?) I seem to remember ut as introducing clauses of purpose like Nadare volo=I wish to swim but Ut nadent volo=I wish them to swim .I'd better stop my mind is getting befuddled(what's that?)

hahahaha befuddledus, a, um, Tudy? hahahaah I am always in that case! hahahaha

OK happy Latin Reaers, listen up! You don't know the progress YOU have made!

Last night I found a passage in Livy we must read, on the death of Cicero! Now you say, why must we read it? Well we must read it because after honing our brains on Cicero, it reads like English! You will be AMAZED at yourself! E=Z is not the word!!

We have quite a few questions still here on the floor not answered, I'm going to assume we're stuck?

I love being stuck because that means we're having to think, and this morning I fly out to St. Paul Minnesota to visit our Lorrie who is quite ill, Pat and I are going and will take your best wishes with us, we here on SeniorNet Books are a real family and real people and we do care.

They SAY there is internet access thru the TV in the hotel room? hahahaha SO a first, Latin will be done over webtv I guess, but I will not have my books there sooooo sooooo SOOOOOO in essence the gauntlet is thrown, you're pretty much here on your own, and I have put up the reading thru the 15th? And let's see what you can do working together!!

Prancerus, let's hear what you think?

In these lines Cicero has illuminated one of the greatest ironies to man!~ ALL men wish to live forever or at least to a ripe old age, but what happens when they get there? THAT'S the subject of the Latin in the box today, so let's see what you think?

to what does quo genere refer?

what use of the subjunctive is ut adipiscantur omnes optant?

CAN you make sense of the words in the box, and IF so what are your thoughts on what he SAID?

Moxie, what a lot of work you do, I think you should be rewarded 10 fold, love it. YES the definition is there hahahahahaah HAHAHAHA, oK I like your process, what do YOU see it as?

To me it's a bit more simple, I simply see any form of qui as who till I learn otherwise and you learn otherwise fast if the word behind it seems in agreement, then it's which, for starters, works very well 99 percent of the time!

So I would roughly translate both Quo and quam in the passage as "which."

Justin, what do YOU see genere referring to?

Tudy, I'm going to say, having reread last night about the Condition Contrary to Fact Clauses and the Purpose Clause that this is, in my opinion, a purpose clause with opto, one main reason (it's a puzzler because you can use the words should or would which normally translate the Conditions,) but essentially opto does take clauses of purpose and the words Si and/ or Nisi are not present, which usually signal the Conditions, such as If I wrere king, dilly dilly, you'd be my queen but I'm not, so that's Condition Contrary to Fact and subjunctive.

In this case I'm going to say for my own opinion this is a purpose clause, quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant

and reading left to right literally you have.... which... that...they might... obtain... all (men)... desire....

So I would say, more freely, using the infinitive form to tranlsate purpose clauses, " which all men desire to obtain "

And we're talking about what? What's the antecedent of "which,"...you know what? I would LOVE to diagram this sentence, wouldn't IT be a beaut?

OK so what do you all now think "Quo in genere est in primis, senectus,
quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant"

is?

NOTE, Gentle Latinist, that the reading in the heading includes the REST of the passage?

You guys are about to complete another paragraph!!

What do you think??

ginnicus

I hope our friend in the hospital is resting comfortably and some better. About our questions, I think the which refers ro "old age=senectus"which I looked up in my dictionary and found it's feminine which would agree with the quam.And I think the class(gens) also refers to old age or old people I finally found "in primis"in my Latin dictionary which says it means especially so I think maybe the clause says "in which group especially is old age which all wish to obtain" Close?(but no cigar)I haven't figured out the next but I love the Latin 'stultitiae"I think it has to do with stupidity and I think it's kind of onomatopoetic

I've been working my brains out on this, too.

I think I found the meaning of "stultitiae" as something like "fool or foolish". Must work on the bits and pieces to try making sense of it.

I am wild guessing now but in the prior clause, Qui and omnia bona appear to me to be feminin. It's the "a" ending that makes me think that. Could those who seek all good within themselves be the antecedent of "Which?"

I ordered Cassell's Latin Dictionary from BN. No new books are available so I ordered a used volume said to be in good condition.It arrived today and appeared to be unused. BN charged me $6.30. I looked for "primis" and failed to find it. I looked in the English section for "especially" and found "praesertim" adverb. I looked up "praesertim" and found it is translated as "especially". Cassell's is nothing if not consistent. Is there another way I can look for "primis"?

Look under imprimis Justin, and you will find especially. That is the difference between L&S and Cassells. Cassells combines in primis to imprimis because I guess it figures that that is the better known form. Cassells shows it as especially.

I'm glad you have a Cassellls. You will have to read my back posts to find both the explanation of primis as especially (I see it as prmiarily but especially is good also.)

Also please reread my post to see that omnia bona is a neuter plural, hence the a ending, you correctly tranlsated it as all good {THINGS understood}

Am typing this in a hotel room on a webtv, it's simply maddening, corrections virtually impossible, please ignore errors in spellng, and editing.

ginny

Tudy, I believe you are right on, your translation is super, love the senectus as feminine (funny when you contemplate the statistics of age and gender today, huh?) and I like your antecedent, I think this is really coming back to you.

Prancer and Tudy, me too, love that word, stultitia, you almost have to spit it, don't you, hahahaha I agree it's onomotoepetic (sorry for the spelling) so Prancerus, what's your translation?

You all are really doing splendidly, it's very neato to look in over this modern internet, and see Latin Living Today!

Unfortunately stultitia appears feminine too, tho I do not have a dictionary present but we don't want to make too many generalizations THERE, right? hahahaha

See you tomorrow night, thank you Tudy our friend IS resting comfortably and sends greetings to all.

ginny

Here is my translation for: eandem accusant adeptam; tanta est stultitiae inconstantia atqueperversitas.

the inherent finding fault such stupidity, fickleness as wellas perverseness exists.

Ginny

I'm so happy to know our friend is resting and receiving our wishes. Thank you.

Now, this may not be correct, as I do not have any Latin dictionary. I am using the resouces provided above.

"Quo in genere est in primis senectus,"

(my guess or attempt is:)

"those, who lawfully, first become seniors"

BTW...I just read something about Mel Gibson (swoon!) Some of the article says he is a traditionalist and loves the Latin mass.

I found isdem,eadem idem, I think, meaning the same so I'm going to try the last part-they blame the same thing(meaning senectus-old age) having been obtained,so great is the inconsistency and perversity of foolishness(I think stupidity makes better sense here but my dictionary says foolishness) I think Cicero was right on here- where I live,in our daily conversations the phrase(its (unprintable) getting old comes up regularly)

Thank you Ginnicus. I see in Cassells that "thing (res)" is often rendered by neuter adjective and pronoun. Well, that kicks that antecedent. That leaves "senectus" as Tudy says.

It is also well for me to recall that gender in nouns is independent and agreement of adjectives is required. I guess that's why senectus is feminin and Ginnicus is not.

Reading all of this leaves me Confusicus!! LOL

Why is there an "n" in eandem? Is it an alternate spelling for eadem?

Thank you, JUSTIN. I too have been wondering about the "n" and whether indeed there IS such a word, or whether this could POSSIBLY just by chance be a printing error. I do not believe this is a variation in the spelling of EADEM. Latin is too precise for that. There is no Latin 'lite' <g>.

Do we have access to any OTHER Latin edition of Cicero's writings, which we could check out ? Surely there is not only ONE source of Cicero's writings available, or is there?

Does anyone have "eaNdem" in his/her dictionary ?

JUSTIN, you are quite right about bonus, bona, bonum (masc., fem. neuter) as ADJECTIVE. But there is also the plural noun bona, bonarum = good things, and THAT, I believe, is meant in the phrase "... omnia bona petunt", "omnia" being the adjective agreeing with "bona", hence ... those who aspire to all good things ...

I understand that "imprimis" means especialy, but the words here are in primis (not quite the same), and they have to do with "senectus", I believe.

Here is what I found in the Dictionary I use:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eandem

dem TACKON

TACKON w/i-ea-id idem => same

e.an PRON 4 2 ACC S F

idem, eadem, idem PRON

(w/-dem ONLY, idem, eadem, idem) same, the same, the very same, also;

I found it. Eandem is the accusative feminine form of idem meaning the same.

This is challenging.

Here is another sentence with "eandem"

Eandem legionem, quam antea,misit.
He sent the same legion as (he had sent) before.

Good work, Everybody, if you'll check the Guide to Wheelock's Latin: A Study and Grammar Guide in the link in the heading (I will ask Pat to make that more prominent today) you will find the explanation of is, ea, id (right on Tudy) and how it elides when it combines with the suffix --dem, here it is to save you the trouble?

THE DEMONSTRATIVE idem, eadem, idem

This is simple. Latin adds an undeclinable suffix to the end of the inflected forms of the demonstrative "is, ea, id" and comes out with "the same". Like the demonstrative "is, ea, id", the resulting form can be used either an adjective -- "eadem femina" (the same woman), or as a full-blown pronoun -- "video easdem" (I see the same (feminine) things). Remember, the syntactically important information comes before the "dem" suffix: "eisdem", "eaedem", etc.

The addition of the suffix cause some distortion of the spelling of "is, ea, id". First, in the nominative singular masculine, the "s" of "is" collides with the "d" of "-dem" and disappears, but the "i" of "is" becomes long as a result. In the nominative singular neuter instead of "iddem" we get "idem". No big surprise here. Finally, and this isn't much of a surprise either, wherever the case ending of "is, ea, id" ends in an "m", the addition of "dem" changes the "m" to an "n".

I've got some things to catch up with here at home and then we'll look at what you all have said.

ginny

It feels good. I too have since found the pronomina demonstrativa, specifically ipse, ipsa, ipsum = self =; iste, ista, istud = this one, and idem = the same . idem has a few peculiarities.

Here's the singular

nominative = idem eadem idem
genitive = eiusdem
dative = eidem
accusative = eundem eandem idem
ablative = eodem eadem eodem

Here's the plural
nom. = eidem (id.) eaedem eadem
gen. = eorundem earundem eorundem
dat.= eisdem (isdem)
accus.= eosdem easdem eadem
abl. = eisdem (isdem)

I wish I knew how to set up little boxes, with 'singular' and 'plural' next to each other, and the respective cases underneath. Oh well. At least I hope there are no typos.

Now back to "Quo in genere ..."

I have not participated in any Lorrie led discussions but just knowing that one of ours has died is a sad thing for me. It's an event to be expected in old people yet when it comes the loss is often felt in unexpected places. Please, Ginny, extend my condolences to the family.

Although I didn't know her, I would also like to express my sadness at the news of Lorrie's passing. We seem like family on SN and we feel we know people, just from posted words.

Oh my..it was so very good that Ginny and Pat were able to be with her and give her our wishes and thoughts.

May she rest in peace.

To have a leader of our internet community fallen is a sad time indeed and while I did not have the opportunity of participating in her group I am certain her memory will linger long in the hearts and minds of those who did.

...old age, especially, is in this class which all men wish to reach,

eandem...the same (meaning old age)

accusant... they find fault with ... third person, plural
present indicative,
Active voice.

adeptam... attainment... adeptio feminine. I am uncertain about
about the declension. It looks
like 2nd but the "am" ending
occurs only in the 1st as an
accusative case. That would
make adeptam a direct object

They find fault with old age in attainment.

Prancer, I envy what you know in Latin, I am not only Confusicus, I feel like a total Ignoramus. My 12 yr old granddaughter is taking Latin in High School, she loves it.

Eloïse

Eloise

Thank you. A lot of lucky guesses, I think, on my part. I really should be starting with basics, as I have no idea of endings, etc.

I wish I'd paid attention in High School. Nice to hear that you Granddaughter is enjoying her Latin studies. Is it compulsory now?

Well, on to the next line and see what I can (gulp!) make out of it. Everyone probably doing the same.

Hi Justin, I don't know whether this might help but I think adeptam is the past participile of adipiscor the deponent verb that means obtain or reach andit is inthe accusative to modify the pronoun eandem.Ginny will probably laugh at me but I can't believe how when you scratch the surface some of this stuff comes back.

Hi, Ginny: at last I've made it to the discussion group. It is surprising how much comes back after all these years but my translations are more literal than accurate. Enjoy all the participants comments. jerryphd (Doris)

Salve, Doris!!!
How glad we are to see you here! Just the thing we need to set us back on our feet. Thank you Prancer, Justin and Tudy for your kind words about Lorrie Gorg, we do miss her already, I apologize for my absence here and appreciate you all carrying on hahaha as they say, you've really done wonderfully well.

I have some fascinating new things to bring to your attention today, and we'll wrap up our current lines, I think as Tudy and Doris say it's beginning to come back a tad, it's still there, locked in the computer recesses of your mind and as you go, take a minute from time to time to study the things that puzzle you in the grammar in the heading, it's excellent.

First off as I told you I found a passage in Livy we must do next, it's on the death of Cicero (you may be ready to kill him at this point? Hahaha) BUT having honed your brains on Cicero you will be thrilled with yourself, I can't wait to SEE your delight, you'll read the entire paragraph immediately, I predict it, and marvel at your ease in reading it and not just that, I found another passage yesterday which looks like See Jane Run to you guys, I will bring it here on the first of the week, you'll just be amazed! I perceive that all this hard work has paid off and we may…I say may…just have discovered something here, but first LOOK at this? Look!

Caesar Illustrated: the Bridge over the Arar: click to enlarge

and here's

Caesar Illustrated: a whole page: click to enlarge and see if you can read it?

Although the author takes some liberties, the text is much the same, it's heavily annotated with references to the Gallic Wars and the notes to the Teacher and the Students are in Latin hahahaahh AHHAAH I love the premise of it, I think we should try it for the Fall! What do you think? It's very fun to try to translate using the illustrations as aid, I love it and the premise says,

Plunge into Latin and come to understand how Caesar operated! By breaking the Latin into conversation bubbles, the text makes the Latin far less intimidating while never compromising the rigor of the test and translation exercises. This format encourages readers to approach the translation bit by bit, thus making is more manageable. And the addition of the illustrations just as naturally encourages readers to use contextual clues and other reading comprehension strategies in the process of translation.

I SAY LET'S GO FOR IT!

What do you think?? Hahahaah

Now while you're excitedly translating Caesar, I'll get up the translation of our first sentence above and we can discuss it while viewing the new passage, you guys are sharp!

There's something very comforting to me about the study and reading of Latin? I am glad to have such good comrades in arms with me on this journey, appreciate you all, very much.

ginny

Tudy; Cassell's says perfect participle of adipiscor is adeptus and when used in passive voice is tranlated as "obtained". No wonder, I could not make adeptam fit a declension. I don't know how I could have figured that out. Did it come to you from prior knowledge or is there a way to reason it out?

If eandem is a pronoun standing for some prior nominative(old age), that is modified by adeptam- a passive participle, I get,"... to find fault with old age when obtained,..."

The endings are so important. I think the Romans must have placed great stress upon them when speaking. Hey, Brutus. Did you say "em" or "am"? Say it again Brut. I don't know whether to kiss you or to kill you.

OK here's our Latin first? You've done a super job here, I'm proud of you.

Quo in genere est in primis senectus,

Left to right: Which in class (or type) is especiallyl old age (In this group of people old age especially belongs)

quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant,

Which that they might attain all (men) hope for or seek (which all men wish to attain

eandem accusant adeptam;

The same (old age) they reproach or accuse when attained. (but when attained they accuse).

So here we have a conundrum which exists in 2004, do we not?

"I want to live forever," shouts the musical FAME, everybody wants to live to get old, retire, travel, but when they do get old, they gripe about it, do you find that to be true today as much as it was then?

Cicero, laughing says then tanta est stultitiae inconstantia atque perversitas. and that's our clause for tomorrow only, you guys are so hot we need to move on, what's he saying here?? Left to right, notice the ending on stultitiae? It's genitive and should be translated..."of...."

What do you think? One day only!!

ginny

tanta est stultitiae inconstantia atque perversitas.

Justin, you are too funny, see my post 140, I am interested in your reaction, we were posting together, I'll let Tudy say how she found that marvelous play on words that Cicero used in adeptam, fun, isn't it?

ginny

Everybody please notice that there is always a running translation in the heading and also the apropos Latin clauses are highlighted both in the running text and in the box?

Please also notice that there IS a grammar in the heading titled Study Guide to Wheelock's Latin: an Online Grammar and all you have to do is click on it and he'll explain the rest. I hope to invite Dr. Grote in here, he's a marvelous man and last year when we proposed this he was quite interested in our project and I think he'd be very pleased with you all, as well, I know I am, what fun to have this to turn to.

ginnicus (4th declension AND feminine) hahahaha

Hi Ginny

tanta est stultitiae inconstantia atque perversitas.

so much is changeable stupiditiy as well as perverseness.

Pretty darn good, Moxie, so nice to see you again, listen tho you need to translate stultitiae as "of foolishness (stupidity) or folly or silliness" you need the OF, what will you do with the rest?

Ginny, 'Tanta est stultitiae inconstantia et perversitas' So great is the inconsistency and distortion of folly. Camicat

Wonderful, Camicat, I wondered where you were, well done! Isn't this interesting, we all have different translations, and they're all good, and right to the point, so you are seeing so great are, and Moxie sees so much is! I DO like that "distortion!" I'm going to have to think about mine, am leaning toward such is or maybe so great is the inconsistency and.....what's wrong with perversity of ...now what force do we understand stultitiae? Is he saying that it's stupid or a type of foolishness to gripe about old age that you try to hard to attain?

Interesting!

I'm so glad to see you again, Camicat!

Now Moxie and Doris and Camicat what do you all think of my proposal (Post 140) for fall and the Illustrated Caesar? !? Might be a heck of a lot of fun?

ginny

"tanta est stultitiae inconstantia atque perversitas"

Lost one post; trying again..(likely was wrong) LOL

"A large part (of old age) is foolish inconsistant often awry"

Prancerus, you have the most creative translations, I like yours better than mine, now stultitiae has to be translated with the word of, you have it as foolish so you would need of foolishness, what can you do with the rest? I have a feeling you were a Caesar scholar, you translate like him, am I right?

Confuscius hahahaah that's cutissimus.

g

So full of folly and inconsistency as to be perverse.

Such is...the XXX of folly (or stupidity or foolishness) and XXXX. Gotta look at the endings of perversitas and inconstantia, neither are Accusative?

I am now wondering if there's any possibility that stultitiae might be substantive?

ginny

Since the earlier part of the passage referred to "groups" or "categories" of people, I took "in genere" to mean 'in this group' and"in primis" as 'first of all'. "senectus" is the subject, "quam", "eandem" and "adeptam", all accusative, refer to the subject.

"accusant" is not so much 'accuse' but 'lament, complain'

Here is my very free rendition :

"First for this group is old age, which all seek (or are eager) to reach, yet once they attain it, they complain; such is the perverse inconsistency of foolishness."

Inconstancia and perversitas are nouns in the nominative case, and stultitiae is the genitive; literally : thus is the inconsistency and perversity of foolishness.

This seems to be still true in this day and age : people are concerned first of all about old age, and all hope to get there, but once they do, they complain about it, hence the perverse inconsistency of foolishness.

Traude, I admire your logic!

Ginny, like the idea of Illustrated Ceasar!

Great, Traude, thanks! I think we can agree now on this last clause and put the final pieces in the first paragraph of our completed Latin puzzle, it feels good!

Moxie, super, so that's TWO for Caesar in September, the marvelous thing about Caesar is that he tends to repeat himself, (and those who don't want to use the illustrated book can use the online texts), and so after a while you suddenly find yourself flying thru the thing automatically, and of course we will get to revisit in detail the famous Ablative Absolute which Caesar made his own signature construction!

Here's the info again, we now have Two to Tango on September 1, who will make it Three?

!

Caesar Illustrated: the Bridge over the Arar: click to enlarge

and here's

Caesar Illustrated: a whole page: click to enlarge and see if you can read it?

Plunge into Latin and come to understand how Caesar operated! By breaking the Latin into conversation bubbles, the text makes the Latin far less intimidating while never compromising the rigor of the test and translation exercises. This format encourages readers to approach the translation bit by bit, thus making is more manageable. And the addition of the illustrations just as naturally encourages readers to use contextual clues and other reading comprehension strategies in the process of translation.

I SAY LET'S GO FOR IT! ( by the way, this is not a comic book per se, it's a huge glossy thing, and done for a scholarly purpose, we might enjoy pointing out the liberties the presenter took, too!)

So let's close our chapter now with these translated words and hone your already razor sharp minds on the next clause!

Let's look at the entire Latin in the heading and now this translation:

......qui autem omnia bona a se ipsi petunt, eis nihil malum potest videri quod naturae necessitas adferat. Quo in genere est in primis senectus, quam ut adipiscantur omnes optant, eandem accusant adeptam; tanta est stultitiae inconstantia atque perversitas.

To those who do not have the means within themselves of a virtuous and happy life, every age is burdensome; but to those who seek all good things from themselves, nothing can seem evil which the laws of nature inevitably impose. To this group of people old age especially belongs, which all men wish to attain, and yet reproach when attainted; such is the inconsistency and perversity of foolishness!

All right, now this one is going to be difficult, so use THIS CLUE!?!

Obrepere aiunt eam citius quam putassent. Ok "eam" here refers to old age? Quam means "than" can you piece it together using that hint???

??? That's today's SENTENCE, we're gaining speed but I do admit it's a diffy one.

A better challenge than a crossword puzzle!

ginny

Obrepere|| aiunt|| eam|| citius|| quam ||putassent.||
????????||?????||old age (translate as "it")||??????|| "than"|| ?????????||

now this morning you will also note a slight shift in the heading, the lines you have translated have lost their clause per line appearance and should display all together, the entire translation to date is in the heading and we've subtly just jerked it up a notch?

Our present translation will always appear as a clause in the heading one per line but the completed Latin will revert to a more normal appearance, just look at what all you have done, I think we're on to something here, I really do. We should write our own book.

I believe we have a new construction also today to look at, don't we? Anybody know what it might be?

ginny

Ginny

No, Ginny, I was never a Caesar scholar (that I know of). Maybe some of it got crammed into my juvenile head. LOL

I am just going by the "seat of my pants" with this. Loads of fun.

Now, to get on with the next step.

obrepere= to crawl (ob would be away from )
aiunt = they say
eam = Ginny gave us -to mean old age (as it)
citius = rapidly, quickly
quam= than
putassent= think or believe

so! They say that old age crawls away quicker than they think.

Your Latin Scholar

You know what, Nurse Ratchett? You will be amazed at this, you have it all right except for one word (kind of like the Price is Right? Where you lack only one number?) And it's the word Obrepere. Obrepere does mean crawl as one of its meanings, but in a slightly different way, think of a horror movie?? In this clause the idea of "crawl" takes on a further extrapolation. If you got obrepere you'd have it! And it will mean something completely different but you have all the rest right? What a puzzle, huh?

They say that old age comes by surprise rather than quickly. How's that Professor?

hahaah NOW you have obrepere right BUT you've changed the rest of your original sentence, you do have the meaning!!! But you need to insert obrepere into your first sentence to get it perfect as it was about 100 percent right? hahahaahah Obrepere as "creeps up" is the one we need here, how old age creeps up on us.......how does it creep up on us?

... age creeps up on you (nolens volens, willy nilly, there's nothing to be done about it). As my mother said, barely fifty at the time and still beautiful, "Age is cruel". I thought that ridiculous at the time; I still do.

"They say that old age creeps up more quickly than you would think.

Bingo!! Bene, Andrea!! well done!
You guys are getting hot here, what are we going to do with you!?!

Also right, Traude, and now Cicero goes on to reason with that logic and I think he makes a good point, let's let everybody give this their best shot, let's discuss the philosophy inherent in this sentence and then move on in the morning, I am wondering how fast you all want to go? Tell me, let's discuss this one here today, did you all get the same thought Andrea did ??

And then tomorrow we'll see Cicero's thoughts on the concept of old age creeping up on you faster than you thought?

HAS it, do you think, in your own life? Are you astounded to find yourself aged? They used to say that until you see yourself in the mirror suddenly and realize that person is YOU, you don't realize it, do you think THAT's true?

Has old age crept up on YOU faster than you thought it would?

They say it creeps up and quickly overwhelms??

THAT'S wrong.??

OK and let's not neglect the literal translation (do you find THESE helpful?)

Obrepere__|| aiunt_|| eam______|| citius______________|| quam ||
putassent.||

To creep up|| they say|| it (old age)|| quicker or more swiftly|| than||
they would have thought

We do have, I believe, a new construction today, I think the first time we've seen this here, can anybody say what it might be?

Prancerus, we're all posting together and missing each others posts, I missed yours, sorry, I hit Print Page at the very top of the screen and am appalled at how many I HAVE missed, that's a super function, I think we have to consder the force here of putassent, which is "they had thought," (loosely) it's the Pluperfect subjunctive so I want to put the word "would" in there somehow, but your including the part which you do have right about it creeping up on you (and the sense of being overwhelmed is very good, as well).

You do seem to jump to the heart of what he's saying!

ginny

Ginny

Obrepere aiunt eam citius quam putassent

They say that(old age) approaches unwares swifter than believed.

I have this defition of the verb eam:

e.am V 6 1 PRES ACTIVE SUB 1 S

eo, ire, ivi(ii), itus V

go, walk; march, advance; pass; flow; pass (time); ride; sail;

e.am PRON 4 1 ACC S F

is, ea, id PRON

he, she, it, they; also DEMONST that, he, she, it, they, them;

Good job, Moxie!! In this case eam is the feminine singular in the Accusative case of is, ea, id, and refers back to senectus, old age, which is feminine, and in the 4th Declension which is a rarity, by the way? You just need to lose "unawares" altho that's the way we are, isn't it? Taken unawares.

I'm still here doing my homework, but not posting. I wonder, for heaven's sake, why we're taken so unaware by old age? It's the logical sequence of life, isn't it? Maybe it's not so much old age that surprises us, but the various aches, pains and ills that seem to go along with it. Sort of an "It Can't Happen Here" delusion, or something?

Doesn't it amaze you a little that our ancient ancestors were so much like us who are living in the 21st century, and thought in such similar ways? It does me sometimes.

Mal

All of the sudden I looked up and saw my mother looking back at me. When, I thought, did I get so old looking? I really hadn't thought it would come this quickly.

"They say it creeps up quicker than they would have thought." You gals did a fine job on this one. There was little left for me to do but agree. I see two new forms. The subjuctive is here and also a comparison.

I'm still thinking about illustrated Caesar. I want to learn to read Latin literature rather than to converse in Latin. If reading bubbles, helps me to read written sentences in Cicero, I am all for it.

My mother often told me when she was 85, "Justin, don't get old. It's no fun." Dad was 92 at the time and beginning to act a little peculiar. A gentle, responsible man all his life, he pushed mom into a clothes hamper and left her there crying. Old age is not easy.

Hi Ginny-Indirect Discourse with the subject eam in accusative or objective case and the verb obrepere in the infinitive-Is that right?I also looked up and found aiunt is a defective verb-thatpinched a nerve about my mental processes-Anyway does it look like"they say that it creaps up faster than they had thought"?(meaning old age and again i think cicero hit it on the mark) Ginny I'd love to do Caesar in the fall.I'm having so much fun here.

For the first time in my life I'm glad I had polio. The various discomforts, pain, struggle, etc., make some old age issues easier for me.

For one thing, I had to learn patience and how to live with solitude. For another, I was compensating all my life for what I was unable to do, and had to find innovative ways to compensate. When my hands became so messed up with arthritis that I couldn't hold a brush to paint, I found another way to do artwork. When it was difficult for me to walk, I found another way to get around.

I've already thought about what I'll do if it happens that I can't type any more or see the monitor screen. Voice commands are fine, and I'll write my books on some kind of recorder and listen to books on tape. As far as I'm concerned, the whole idea is not to give up and to stay as busy and productive as I can.

Mal

You have so much Courage, are definitely a survivor, it my pleasure to meet you in S/N books.

Ginny I am enjoying all that is going on in this discussion.

Hi All.

All right, last phrase quickly.

For me (sorry GINNY) verbs still come first (old habits die hard).

verb # 1 "aiunt", verb # 2 "putassent". "obrepere is indeed the infinite. In English the comma would be unnecessary (and wrong, if marks were given). "patussent" is third person plural of the verb putare = to expect, or to anticipate we might say; the mode is conjunctive, the tense is the plusquamperfect. (*)

Gosh, aren't you all glad that English is so uncomplicated ? No mandatory agreement between nouns, adjectives, adverbs and all that jazz -- who can say English is difficult ??? And isn't ONE future enough ? Well, in Latin there are two : future I and future II.

Now then : "They claim (say, assert) it ("eam" = senectus) creeps (or steals") up on them faster than they had anticipated."

(*) The pluperfect is hardly ever used in English - but by golly it should be IMHO! Because there is a difference between the imperfect (the simple past) and the pluperfect; i.e.

"I TOLD him so" = simple past), and "I HAD TOLD him years ago that I was not interested".

As for the conjunctive ( subjonctive in French), or even the conditional for that matter, in English, let's not go there ...

MAL, I don't think we are debating what we all think of old age and its inevitability; as I see it, the fun here is in deciphering, decoding if you will, what old Cicero had to say about it. Not that opinions have changed all that much since.

TRAUDE, I am well aware of what this discussion is about. It was GINNY's Post #164 that led to my and others' comments about aging. If you find them offensive and inappropriate, I apologize.

I'm gone.

Mal

MAL, will you please stop being so extraordinarily sensitive when absolutely no harm or criticism was meant in the first place ? You make me afraid of opening my mouth !

Also, I had replied to an earlier post of yours which you seem to have since deleted. Let me reassure you : No criticism/correction was intended.

Right now, having successfully translated the last sentence so quickly and well, we're now discussing whether or not old age creeps up on you or if it did personally and then when Cicero delivers his own thoughts on it we can compare, so all thoughts are welcome here.

Traude, great job translating, I do need to ask about a couple of things you said, the mode is conjunctive, I'm not familiar with the conjunctive mode, but I am the Subjunctive, is that what you meant? If so you are correct?

"obrepere is indeed the infinite. " You mean the infinitive, don't you?

In English the comma would be unnecessary (and wrong, if marks were given). The original text does still have a comma which I removed early this morning from our own text after thinking about it, and again this afternoon when SeniorNet reset itself, we'll have to give those bad marks to the originating site, which is the University of Alabama at Huntsville.

by "patussent" do you mean putassent?

I think that is a shortened version of putavissent, probably for metre's sake, I don't know.

A good idea, Traude, to review the past tenses, we do want to get those right.

The Indicative has four past tenses:

the Imperfect: putabant: they used to think or they were thinking

The Perfect: putaverunt: they thought or they have thought

The Pluperfect or Past Perfect: putaverant: they had thought

The Future Perfect: putaverint: they will have thought

The Subjunctive has three past tenses

The Imperfect Subjunctive: putarent: often uses "might or would" in translating in accordance with the clause

The Perfect: putaverint: they might have thought

The Pluperfect or Past Perfect: putavissent: they would have thought

Malryn, I'm glad to see you continuing along here, the group is getting really good!

We still do have a construction in this sentence, I think, which we have not identified or hinted at, does anybody want to take a stab?

Hi, Ginger, I'm sorry I missed your post, I keep doing that, that's why now when I come here I hit PRINT PAGE on the top right hand corner of the scren and I can see what everybody has said, I agree, I'm really enjoying this discussion, and our group is on a roll here, it's exciting to me because I suspected they could do it, and it IS fun.

Glad to see you here!

ginny

OH my gosh, I missed three more posts, I wonder WHY?

OH well done, Justin, the subjunctive AND a comparative, you are right, good job, and wonderful on the Illustrated Caesar, YAY! That's three of us tango-ing with Julius (might look strange we may need more) hahahaha

Poignant story, Justin of your family, I am sorry, old age is definitely not for sissies, as we are beginning to find out.

Andrea, I know what you mean, in spades. I keep trying to defy these jowls (sp??) that were my mothers and grandmothers, with no luck.

Malryn good thoughts, I do think that the ancients were amazingly like us, in many ways, I'm not sure what that means yet but it's eerie sometimes.

Bingo, Tudy!! Well done!

Indirect Discourse it is! Well done! Indirect Discourse with the subject eam in accusative or objective case and the verb obrepere in the infinitive-Is that right? YES MA'AM!!

Indirect Discourse occurs when the thoughts or speech of a person (saying, thinking, knowing, perceiving, etc.,) is reported without quotation marks (directly). An example would be, Caesar said "you are fat," (Direct) and Caesar said that you are fat (Indirect).

As Tudy has said the verb is in the infinitive form (and it has lovely rules for those tenses and agreement, we may get into those later) and the subject in the accusative (eam) which refers back to old age. Nicely done!

I also looked up and found aiunt is a defective verb-that pinched a nerve about my mental processes- hahaha It just pinched one in mine, too hahahahaah just to read you say that. hahahaah

What are your thoughts on putassent?

Contracted form?

Anyway does it look like "they say that it creaps up faster than they had thought"?(meaning old age and again i think cicero hit it on the mark) me too.

Ginny I'd love to do Caesar in the fall.I'm having so much fun here. HOORAY!! I am too, hooray for you!! That's four of us to tango in the Fall with Caesar, he won't know what hit him, anybody else?

We must use this new book, we must, it would be a HOOT of hoots.

ginny

Ginny, sorry, I mixed up the vowels in 'putavissent' (a typo); and I meant SUBjunctive. As I said, my Vita Romana was written for German students and "subjunctive" is "Konjunktiv" in German. Sorry about that too.

I have since unearthed another, more detailed grammar of Latin syntax with comparisons to English and French; the pencil marks are faint and barely readable... Oh my. Just to look at all of the rules, not to mention the exceptions, makes my head swim ! Did I know all of that at one time ? Oh me gosh!

It took a minute or two for the enlarged bubbled text from Caesar to become un-blurred, and the pictures were a little in my way. So if I were to join you in September, I would read the text only, if available on line. On the other hand, we did Caesar in class all those years ago; Bellum gallicum was the very first text we read once we had labored for years (it seems) over the grammar. My thinking now is that I'll pass on Caesar.

I too see putassent as pluperfect subjunctive. The clue for me is the presence of "se" in the ending. What I am not certain about is the conjugation. It is either first or third. How can I distinguish one from the other? I am also uncertain about "citius", the adverbial comparative. It seems to be neuter gender but is it nominative or accusative case? The endings are the same.

JUSTIN!! (I've got Jonathan on the brain) hahaaha puto is first conjugation, you have to look them up if you don't recall puto because it's hard looking at putassent to see putavissent, but if you saw putavissent you'd know that it was first, I think.

On the comparative of citius, aren't you smart, it IS an adverb in the comparative degree, you got that from quam? Very good!! I myself missed that, and that brings me, Traude, to say please don't apologize for making mistakes? We're all going to make mistakes! As you say it's been a long time and my personal brain is, I can hear it, creaking, let's cut us all some slack here and just have fun, (we've got the scholarship down pat). Thank you for the German for conjunctive, I can't imagine having to translate Latin to German to English, I think you're doing a heck of a job.

On citius, here is what Wheelock says in answer to your excellent question, JUSTIN:

Comparatives, however, are two ending adjectives of the third declensions… they follow the consonant declension and so they constitute the chief exception to the rule that adjectives of the third declension belong to the i-stem declension. The Comparative: base of positive + –ius for the neuter.

In adverbs, the comparative degree of citius: ("more, or rather or too swiftly") "is with few exceptions, the -ius form which…is the neuter of the comparative degree of the adjective.

In other words, the comparative of adverbs simply adds, except for irregular adverbs, -ius to the base, good on you , brilliant on you for seeing that quam and the comparative adverb form!

A few other notes: Yesterday in browsing Blackwell's bookstore in Oxford online, I was delighted to see this exciting thing, look, JUSTIN?

and to read

The Pocket Oxford Latin Dictionary
Edition New ed
Moorwood, James

Paperback
£9.99

Along with over 60,000 entries, this dictionary provides full grammatical information for each Latin word, a quick reference grammar section at the back, and appendices of historical and mythological names, geographical locations, and maps.
•

Long Description

This intermediate Latin dictionary contains all the entries and useful supplementary material of previous editions. Along with over 60,000 entries, this dictionary provides full grammatical information for each Latin word, a quick reference grammar section at the back, and appendices of historical and mythological names, geographical locations, and maps.

Table of Contents
Maps of the classical world on end papers
Preface
Guide to pronunciation
List of abbreviations
Latin-English dictionary
English-Latin dictionary
List of historical and mythological proper names
List of geographical names
Summary of grammar

Isn't that lovely? I think I must bring one back and they also recommend something called Latin for Beginners, I will look at that when I'm there, too.

Let me also point out, Traude, mentioned the cartoons of the Caesar Illustrated were hard to read, oh yes they are, those will not be displayed on our site, people will have to purchase or get that book from the library, it's quite large and readable, and does include the entire Gallic Wars text in the back (it's also online) as well as copious notes to the student and teacher IN Latin haahahah. Wanted to clear that up?

Now today I want to introduce to you a new helper here:

He doesn't have a name, what should we call him? But he'll be here when a hint will be given, so be sure to look for him and now on today to our next installment!

ginny

OK since you're tearing it up here, I feel we might tackle TWO sentences, if this is too much, just say so?

Cicero just got thru saying that some people say that old age creeps up on them faster than they thought? So he asks TWO questions and here they are:

Primum quis coegit eos falsum putare?
Qui enim citius adulescentiae senectus quam pueritiae adulescentia obrepit?

Now you can see, for the first time, happily, many repeats? Primus, quis, putare, Qui, citius, senectus, quam, obrepit? All these are our old friends, but look at the endings or you will come a cropper, check out adulescentiae and pueritiae both of those translated "upon" because they are in the Dative case, because obrepo TAKES the Dative, so you don't want, in your translation, to have either as a subject?

Also note that adulescantiae looks like an English word and puerile behavior is something we hope are not guilty of, but it's interesting he uses it here in conjunction with old age, let's see what you can make of this and then let's talk about his choice of words here!!

Ginny

I amybe way of base here but here is what I translated the two questions as:

First what man holds that which is of false value?

Who, indeed having the characteristic of being young approaches swiftly to old age than those of youthful childhood.

OK Ginny, I'd like to take a try on the next too-"First who compelled them to think false? For old age creeps up more quickly on youth than youth creeps up on boyhood" -I can't do a thing with Qui-I think it's indirect object of Quis but it doesn't fit for me. And as I remember when I was younger I also wanted to be able to be older and do older things and it took forever to get to 21. About old age creeping up quickly, until last April I was playing tennis(doubles) but my back just gave out and that was that.I won't say it hasn't been hard to accept at times.

Primum = first of all

Quis = who

coegit = a form of the verb cogere = to force, to compell

falsum (noun) = something false; an error

eos = them

Now then, freely rendered : First of all, who forced them to believe in an error ? Or, still more freely rendered, ... to come to a wrong assumption ?

qui = how

enim has various meanings, but 'indeed' is believed to be appropriate in this context.

How indeed does old age sneak up on adolescence faster than adolescence (does) on childhood ?

JUSTIN, cito = fast, citius = fastER, the comparative.

My Attempt...

"In the first place, who believes false ideas?"

"In fact, does not old age creep up more quickly than youth does on childhood?"

A post scriptum to the first sentence :

cogere (infinitive) irregular verb, memorized with these salient tenses :

cogo, coegi, coactus, all first person singular.

coegit = third person singular, past tense, and requiring the infinitive. That's precisely what we have in the text "coegit eos falsum putare" = ... forces them to think, to assume, "falsum", something that is wrong.

First,what causes them to think otherwise? How much faster indeed indeed does old age steal upon youth than youth upon childhood?

I think, as you say, adulescentiae and pueritiae are both dative but adulescentia is nominative, first declension. I was a little concerned that there was only one obrepit but then I ralized the second verb is understood. The hint "upon" was a big help.

If this is the wrong place to ask for a wee bit of translation, please just send me an email, Ginny. I was attracted to this discussion because it appears there are some Latin geniuses here and I've been wondering how this phrase would be translated:

Alis volat propiis

Thanks so much.

Ginny, can I take a stab at this one?

Alo= strengthen is would be he, she it
volat= He/she does see
propiis= in the space of time

ERGO- Cherish or stregthen what he sees in the space of time.

???????????????????

Welcome, Jeryn! Nice try Andrea, I'm so glad this came up, because it illustrates another tenet of, or you might say curse of Latin, the Latin Motto or Saying.

Alis Volat Propiis is apparently the State Motto of Oregon, and is translated She Flies With Her Own Wings.

I wonder what application to Oregon that has and the original Roman author?

Any mottoes are very difficult because they are often

Taken out of context from a famous author, thus losing the sense of the words, tho in this case it's fairly literal.

Often altered in spelling from the original (I would say it's missing an r in propriis).

Don't mean literally what they say, tho this one does.

Mottoes are tough.

True story: the first year I taught at university, I was of course very nervous and one of the eager students brought to me right in front of the class the motto over the Women's Dorm: Non Sine Pulvere, and asked cheerfully what that might mean.

Talk about panic talk about turning white as a sheet, frantically I thought, not... without... that's pretty clear but PULVERE? Pulverize? What? What? Of course you are not carrying dictionaries to a classroom so I said I didn't know, but I'd find out and after class rushed in some sort of lather into the department sanctuary, raved at the others, was directed to Lewis and Short, and grabbed up L&S to find it's a quotation from Horace, and, ironically, means LITERALLY Not Without Dust. hahahaha Teriffic motto for a women's dorm, huh?

Of course HORACE was talking about gladitorial combat, and the dust you stir up when you fight and he MEANT that nothing is achieved without great effort, and THAT'S what it meant. ahahaha

So at THAT point in my career I banned all submissions of mottoes for instant translation, hahaha but here online all mottoes are welcome, because we have the power of the internet to fall back on, amazing.

Interesting state motto, several of them are, (not to mention the dollar bill), the motto of South Carolina is Dum Spiro Spero (while I breathe, I hope).

Thank you for bringing that here, Jeryn, woke me right up this morning, hahaha. Good way to start the day, too.

Gosh you've all torn thru those TWO sentences already?? What next I wonder? Are we going too fast or too slow? Want everybody to get a turn who would like one. I thought these were hard? But I thought the one before them starting with obrepere was the hardest, let's come back and see what you all have said here, toughie which you sailed thru!

ginny

Ginny & Jeryn

Ohhh! Good thing I didn't post what I "thought" I came up with.

Oh, what the heck...will do. I thought it was "Flying Solo"!

Groan..Better go back to sleep.

Prancerus, I have a feeling that is EXACTLY what is meant by it, you always go to the heart of things instinctively, HOW can you go back to bed after THAT? Jerked me up like an electric shock, hahaah a good one. WIDE EYED here in Pauline! hahahaha

ginnicus (4th declension)

Ginnicus

Better use your proper name!!

I was trying to think of how I got the habit of "saying it like it is".

Anyway, I think a very special Principal in High School was the source of my thinking. He always said: "Say what you mean and mean what you say".

I'm not sure that applies to literal translations, though. I'm lacking in that talent but truly am enjoying this discussion.

hahaha and I think one of my major problems is that I'm too literal hahahaah

Ok you all shock me? I really thought these two would stump you and look at all of you, super tries and good work!!

Let's have a look here, how about giving me some feedback on whether or not this method is likewise helpful, thank you Justin on the HINTS thing.

Primum|| quis|| coegit|| eos|| falsum|| putare?||

Qui|| enim|| citius|| adulescentiae|| senectus|| quam|| pueritiae|| adulescentia|| obrepit?|| As Justin said, and you all have so well seen, there is a verb understood here in the repetition of obrepit at least in your final translation, so let's take it literally first, there's comfort in breaking it down to tiny pieces (now I see where I get my method of looking at literature) hahahaah

Primum__|| quis|| coegit____|| eos_|| falsum|| putare?_||

Firstly||who_|| has forced||them||false_||to think?

OK here I'm not sure myself what he is saying? He seems to be saying who has forced a falsehood or misunderstanding on them? (He obviously feels they are wrong?) I guess he wonders why anybody would feel that way and he proceeds to set them straight? (He'd be a hard man to argue with, wouldn't he? Are you ready to read Livy's death of Cicero yet? Hahahah)

Then he says,

Qui|| enim__|| citius______||adulescentiae|| senectus|| quam||
How||indeed||more swiftly_|| _upon manhood||old age_||than

____pueritiae|| adulescentia|| obrepit?____||
upon childhood|| adolescence__||creeps up on? THESE two sentences, to ME are extremely difficult, and probably should not have been introduced at one time! Hahahaha

So here in the last one he seems to be asking how much more rapidly does old age (senectus IS the subject of the first clause and adulscentia

note the a and not ae on the end of the second adulescantia there? Tricky, tricky!

AdulescantiA as Justin has pointed out, is the subject of that clause, so we have two clauses, one with the verb obrepit understood, senectus obrepit adulescentiae (old age creeps up on youth) and pueritiae adulescentia obrepit. (adolescence creeps up on childhood) and so he's making a comparison here. What I can't seem to see is where he stands, can you?

Had to consult the Loeb on this one and even IT is ambiguous: The Loeb translation is

In the first place, who has forced them to form a mistaken judgment? For how much more rapidly does old age steal upon youth than youth upon childhood?

And here's the translation on the internet in our heading:

They say that it is stealing upon them faster than they expected. In the first place, who compelled them to hug an illusion? For in what respect did old age steal upon manhood faster than manhood upon childhood?

All right, I can't tell what he's saying here? Is he saying that why do people think old age crept up on them suddenly, what's any more sudden than old age from adolescence or youth than adolescence was from childhood?

The only problem is that as you age, your….you have less time? And so things move faster, don't you find it so? Days which used to take eternities pass like the night, weeks are gone in a heartbeat, am I misunderstanding where he's coming from? What do you all think?

ginny

OK one thing that really threw me off and I should have told you all about it in a hint but I did not see it until just this minute is Qui.

Qui of course means "who" when it is a relative pronoun but the problem is it's masculine. So ok what would it be referring back to, then you notice the question mark?

So you'd say well then it's an interrogative adjective, but again it's masculine?

Senectus and adulescentia are feminine?

There's nothing masculine to refer back to or to agree with here?

It's not a relative pronoun it's not an interrogative adjective, Lewis and Short has pages of miniscule type on it, wipe brow, wipe eyes, what the heck IS it and what to do?

Dear old Cassells, the Student's friend, comes up with the answer again:

qui: Interrogative in direct and indirect questions....in what manner? how?

And guess who quoting? hahahaah CICERO of course.

So here we have HOW, indeed, or IN WHAT MANNER, indeed, does old age creep up more swiftly on adulthood than adulthood did on childhood?

I'm still not sure he's right tho? What do you think??

Boy you talk about making the brain cells work!

ginny

Hola, I still think it takes forever when you're young to get old enough to do things you'd like to do like drive a car,stay out past 9PM etc. When I had my driver's license picture taken recently,I told the young man who took it that it made me(surprisingly?) look like a little old lady and he replied "Well, m'am,that's what you are" I also agree that time really goes fast in senior years.when It's Monday ,I t urn around and it seems it's Friday already.

OH I totally agree Tudy (why didn't you slap him? hahahaah) I agree completely, just look at today, I just sat down here and bingo it's gone and...what do you all think of the theory that you have LESS time left so it goes faster, that's kind of frightening, is it true?

I remember I couldn't WAIT to be 21, 30 was kind of OK, 40 was the pits, 50 nearly killed me Half a Century, now 50 looks younger than springime) and 60, well 60!!!! And so here we are, time is flying tempus is fugiting but he seems to say there's no difference.

When I was young and in the Navy a yoeman made up an ID card for me with a mistake in the date of my birth. Instead of 1923 it read 1921. That meant I was 21 and not nineteen. That was a very happy day in my young life.

Today, I find it's always Friday. There are no other days in the week. C'est la vie.

In an e-mail to JERYN I tried my hand last night at translating the Latin phrase, not knowing until she told me that it is Oregon's state motto.

May I ask first whether "propiis" is indeed correct. "propiis" and "propriis" are different words. I believe the latter is meant: "propriis" = his, her, its own.

Now I am being literal, and curious and wonder how "She Flies with Her Own Wings" could possibly have been fashioned out of 'Alis volat propiis (or propriis)'.

hahah Just call you Friday, huh, Justinian? hahaha

Well you know what they say about Fridays!

Traude, I don't know the origin of the quotation, one source said a judge made it up, and gave her name, I imagine there they are saying that propriis which seems to be misspelled, is Ablative of Means or Manner, and tells either the means by which she flies or in what manner she flies, I bet if we knew something of Oregon's history we'd understand it better. Interesting.

Now I've put up only one clause for tomorrow, as you all know I'm gone on Tuesdays for most of the day and so I've put up tomorrow's clause tonight, how about wait till tomorrow to tackle it.

Deinde qui minus gravis esset eis senectus

Now this will be a fun puzzle to think about, because the first thing you see here is the word QUI again, and it will be your own personal puzzle to figure out which of the several meanings and usages of qui which I pointed out in my long post today you are looking at!

So have fun and give it your honest best, and I'll see you all tomorrow night.

ginnicus (4th declension, feminine). hahaahah

Thank you, GINNY, that makes sense; someone manufactured it. In the Latin sentence there is no "she" and no "her".

And the "propiis" in the motto must be an error; the word should be propriis".

End of lament.

BIG thank yous to Traude, ALF, and Ginny for wrestling with my request to translate the Oregon state motto. I admit to playing a bit of devil's advocate because I already knew what it meant!

However, Latin phrases and mottoes fascinate me with their brevity and provide a challenge to this erstwhile reluctant student of Latin!

I found this thing in several sites on the Internet, spelled variously as propiis and propriis. The latter seemed the more educated of the sites [I'll have to go find it again] so I'll stick with that. It means "own" or "ownership"?

I'm also wondering if alis isn't misspelled? What is the spelling for the word for "wings"?

So then, if alis=wings, volat=she flies, and propriis=own... it almost makes sense!

I think the original idea was to denote a state/territory where independence and originality were to be fostered-- a bit like what I read in Oregon today, actually.

JERYN, it does make sense. Alis and propriis belong together. "volat" is 3rd pers. sing. of the present tense, thus representing the masc. fem. and/or neutral personal pronoun he, or she, or it. Both the personal pronoun "she" and the possessive pronoun "her" are implied but not expressed.

Lastly, if it were up to fussy me, the English would read "on" rather than 'with' her wings (as in "on a wing and a prayer").

Ginny:

Finally what man of old age exists less burdensome.

That is my attempt for: Deinde qui minus gravis esset eis senectus

I trust you will all enjoy this. It was the most fun thing in "The Economist" this week.

Latin Lives!

Jeryn, the word for wing is ala, alae, f. There is no i in it, so aliis is a different word. I think you are thinking of alius?

On propriis, that's a form of proprius, an adjective which means "one's own," and a lot of other things.

Tooki, what an interesting article, What Would Caesar Do? hahaah Reminds me of the What Would Gandhi Do Tee shirts, slight difference in those two gentlemen, thank you for bringing THAT here, too, it's nice to have this forum where people bring Latin stuff, a central Latin clearinghouse you might say.

I think you all are doing splendidly, but hark! Did those two sentences throw you? THIS one is easier, and Moxie, good try, now think on this, now, it's not "what man," qui in this sentence means something different and "minus" means sort of what it does in English? Don't you LOVE the daily puzzle of this? The Daily Latin Challenge, I believe it's doing us good.

NOW then, IF you will All JUST take it left to right!!!!! hahahaa I will make believers out of you all yet! Deinde qui minus gravis esset eis senectus

qui in THIS sentence means exactly what it did in the last one, now with these clues, and taking it left to right, this one is not as hard as the two you just sailed thru with flying colors!

Now if you knew, for instance that EIS is "to them" would that help?

That's our old friend is, ea, id again, remember idem eandem etc-dem? hahahahaha

ginnydem

I agree, Traude, that "on" her own wings makes more sense.

"She flies on her own wings."

Volat Alae Propriis says it more correctly?

Ginny, it appears whoever came up with the Oregon motto didn't know Latin very well at all! Where would they get the word "wings" if not from the alis? Misspelled, and should be alae?! Should I write to the Oregon Chamber of Commerce or something??!

Thanks you all for allowing me to interrupt your lessons. Carry on!

JERYN, "with" her wings is not wrong, but "on" her wings sounds smoother to my ears, at least. My problem was with alis from the beginning, and then with propiis, which we know is incorrect.

Whoever formulated the Latin to match the English (and I believe this is what happened) must have had WINGS in mind (he/she knew of volat) but was a bit rusty in Latin. As GINNY said, wing is ala, alae (nomin.and genitive) in Latin, but the noun is feminine and "propriis" should match it !

But look what an amazing lesson we have had with just these three Latin words! We could not have come across a more fitting example of the complexity of Latin grammar and the difficulty of trying to translate something that does not seem to make sense. It was a pleasure for me to try solving this riddle. Thank you for the chance, JERYN.

Let's see whether GINNY has advice as to whether this inaccuracy ought to be brought to the attention of, say, the Chamber of Commerce.

Regarding the phrase on which we are working, may I say with due respect that I believe we need to work also on the rest of the sentence after the comma, or else we'll have diffculty finding our way out of the maze.

I agree Traude S. Knowledge of the follow on clause would make this one clearer. My entry looks like this:
"Then how much less burdensome would it have been to them to be old..."

Senectus is fourth declension, genitive singular. I translate that as " the recipient of old age" which can be shortened to "to be old.""esset" I read as the subjuctive imperfect form of "sum."

One of the alternatives for "minus" is "young" and that might fit in this context although I chose "less" as you (Ginnicus) seemed to suggest.. Justinian

My gestimation....

"Deinde qui minus gravis esset eis senectus.."

"Then, how much less serious is old age..."

Isn't it fun to debate Latin again!!

No, Jeryn and Traude: alis is correct? That's not the problem in the motto, I don't think I'd write anybody unless it was over the missing r in propriis?

As I said in an earlier post, not sure everybody is seeing all the posts, but again alis is plural, that is the feminine plural in the Ablative, again, ala, alae has no i in the base? The only usage I can see here is Ablative of Means (the means by which she flies) or Ablative of Manner (how she flies). Proprius as I've said, is an adjective, and agrees with its noun in gender, number, and case, in this case alis propriis is correct (tho the judge left out the r). It's possible this IS another Latin source and explanation for that missing r in propriis; when I saw a judge submitted it and it was not quoted further back I sort of lost interest in parsing it, and there may well BE an ancient source OR explanation for that missing r: as Traude says frequently mottoes which are made up make no sense, and most people, when it's found they are not real Latin don't spend a lot of time on them?

Now as to our present clause.

Our clause makes perfect sense alone, that's why I submitted it that way, don't be afraid because of those two long sentences we just did?

senectus is in the nominative singular?

That's a really good shot at it Justin, does knowing that senectus is nominative change your translation?

ginnydem

PRANCER!!! Add "to them" (eis) to that, I believe you have conquered!

As we come to these different forms, it might be worth our while to take a look at the entire declension, I think Traude put in idem a bit earlier, here's the parent, is, ea, id, remember this?

Declension of Is, ea, id:  
 ------------------------  
             M:       F:       N: 
 Nominative is       ea       id       he        she        it  
 Accusative eum      eam      id       him       her        it  
 Genitive   eius     eius     eius     his       her, hers  its  
 Dative     ei       ei       ei       to him    to her     to it  
 Ablative   eo       ea       eo       by, with, from him, her, it.  

 Nominative ei       eae      ea        they, those  
 Accusative eos      eas      ea        them, those   
 Genitive   eorum    earum    eorum     their, theirs, of those  
 Dative     eis,iis  eis,iis  eis,iis   to them, to those  
 Ablative   eis,iis  eis,iis  eis,iis   by, with, from them, those

Here you can see eis pretty clearly!

I WILL say that's the strangest arrangement of cases I ever saw, but the declensions are solid.

ginny

All right then.

Might this be a good time to show the tempi of "esse" = to be, one of the verba anomala, and compare the indicative with the subjunctive mood ? And perhaps show the declension of senectus ? Forgive me, GINNY, I do not want to "jump the gun".

"esset" = 3rd person singular (he, she, it), imperfect of the subjunctive mood and means 'would be'. (The imperfect in the indicative mood is "erat"= was.) "esset" is the predicate in this clause.

"senectus" is nominative and the subject of this clause. "gravis" was translated earlier as "burdensome".

Here is my interpretation : Then, how (or in what manner) would old age be less burdensome for them, ....

Ginny I lost my notes you gave us on qui but I think Traude has it-Then old age would be less heavy(burdensome) to them- Boy that declension of is ea id brought memories back-I also am remembering hic haec hoc(and then we used to kid about football signals)-what urchins we were.

Question on earlier translation : reproach is for 'accusant', I take it ?

How does someone participate in this wonderful idea of yours,Ginny? Please be very specificfrom beginning to end. Camicat

If Senectus is Nominative and not Genitive as I thought the phrase should be turned around to read:

Then how much less burdensome would old age be to them...

Welcome to the club, Camicat.

The motto of my university is Perstare et Praestare. It says something about making responsible judgements and then standing firm.

Justin, you prompted me to remember my school's motto'Leges sine moribus vanae" which I think means-Laws without customs (are) vain.

Well aren't all of YOU fabulous, I'm very impressed! Let's start with the Latin itself, have a look, and then we'll move on to the points and questions you've brought up!

Deinde___|| qui|| minus|| gravis|| esset___|| eis____|| senectus||

And again___||how||less__||heavy_||would it be__||to them||

old age_||

Now talk about perfect in presentation!

And again, how much less burdensome would old age be to them......

How do we know senectus is Nominative and not Genitive when we have no long marks to tell the difference? We assume things as nominative until we see a reason they are not.

Why do we automatically put the word "would" in the translation of esset? Because it's subjunctive, you can see that from the "esse" in it? The verb is the verb "to be:" sum, esse, fui, futurum , and esse is the present active infinitive.

Any time you see the present active infinitive inside a verb, it's subjunctive, AND in the Imperfect, to boot!

OK, now Traude, sure, go right ahead and give (what are tempi?) the forms for senectus and sum if you like. You are correct that esset is subjunctive and we will now want to begin asking ourselves why? What construction is it? We'll find that out perhaps in a minute, what fun.

Tudy, Boy, that declension of is ea id brought memories back-I also am remembering hic haec hoc(and then we used to kid about football signals)-what urchins we were. hahaahah yes weren't we? When I taught, I'd tell the football players they could do the chants as the exercised, they are perfect accompaniment to exercise,and they did!! I'd have reports of chanting coming from everywhere, such dear memories.

Traude, Question on earlier translation : reproach is for 'accusant', I take it ? Yes, the translations in the heading are pure Loeb, I think I'm safer that way.

Camicat, I love your point of view, wonderful idea? I want to say which one ahahaha but I bet you are thinking of the Fall reading of Caesar's Gallic War but in illustrated form?

This one?

Proposed for September 1, a reading in Caesar!

Using the text Caesar e commentariis de bello Gallico, shown below. National Textbook Company, ISBN# 0-8442-8629-X

Here are some illustrations from the book:

Caesar Illustrated: the Bridge over the Arar: click to enlarge

and here's

Caesar Illustrated: a whole page: click to enlarge and see if you can read it?

We do have a quorum which means that we will be able to offer it. Here's the deal?

We all know that Caesar's Gallic Wars is available on the internet, free and in many forms. Many of us have old copies of it at home as well. This form illustrates it almost in comic book form tho it's not a comic book, and has the entire text in the back. It's illustrated, large and stiff and I think would be the greatest fun, I love looking at the diagrams of the Helvetians , just love it.

1. On September 1 we will begin a translation of this particular book, in a discussion much like this one, not in a chat.

2. The participants will have to purchase the text or borrow it from the library (it's in regular B&N stores), or use an online non illustrated version. we'll try to coordinate the two,

3. The text is much the same, it's heavily annotated with references to the Gallic Wars and the notes to the Teacher and the Students are in Latin That's really all there is to it, it's a different approach, and might be great fun and also add to our appreciation as I never did understand some of the maneuvers, I am quite struck by one of the diagrams of the Helvetians's in formation. I don't think anybody who buys the book or gets it from the library will be disappointed, I think it, frankly, will be delightful.

Starting September 1, I hope you will all join us.

Camicat, if that does not explain it, please click on my name and email me for more details!

Justin and Tudy, more mottoes, hahahaah since you all are tearing up the translations I'll leave them to you! Hahahaha

Well we're now ready to chug right ahead I think and here Cicero engages in….what I THINK is the first construction of its kind we've encountered, let's have a look at the concluding clause: …si octingentesimum annum agerent quam si octogesimum?

To understand this clause you have to take it with the one which went before it: Deinde qui minus gravis esset eis senectus… and again, how much less heavy would old age be to them…….IF …..

That looks harder than it is? Those two words starting with octo you'll have to look up but maybe you can figure it out? Left to right. Then tell us what the construction is!

AND is he right?

ginnicus (4th Declension, f)

GINNY

UMMMMM????? Well, I guessing again.

Can't find the "octo" type words, however I know that the number 8 (in German) is "Acht" and I'm wondering if this could be a clue?

So, "Next, how much more serious is old age if you are 8 or 80"?

That doesn't seem right (one can't be old at 8!) What is jelling in my mind is the thought "what is the difference what age, if you are prepared". But I can't get it into a proper sentence.

Am I on track?

Yep! But you need to jack up your numbers, you're right about the 8 bit but not the 8th year.It's a tad older than that! Good work Prancer, well done, anybody want to refine that?

GINNY, with "tempi" I slipped into Italian. I meant the tenses and perhaps a comparison with English to the extent possible. But you as the "maestra" will decide what material is presented when.

With due respect to Loeb, it is difficult to see how one might "reproach" one's own advancing age; "complain about it", "rue it", yes, but reproach ? Sometimes translations can be too literal, and that can sound awkward.

Interesting accusative in the next clause, octingesimum annum and octogesimum (annum)/I>. The former is DCCC; the latter LXXX.

Octogentesimum is a superlative adjective. Coupling with quam confirms we are dealing with a comparison but how does one make 800 a superlative? Maybe it's just the upper end of a comparison with eighty.

...and again,how much less burdensome would old age be to them...

if 800 years were as 80 years?

This form illustrates it almost in comic book form tho it's not a comic book, and has the entire text in the back. It's illustrated, large and stiff and I think would be the greatest fun, I love looking at the diagrams of the Helvetians , just love it.

Sorry, can't help but jump in here... Have loved watching you all go to town!! with the Latin...

Ginny, the 'librarian' term for this type book is "graphic"... as in, "graphic novel"... in an effort to encourage reading, "comic books" have become "graphic novels"... so this would be... what?... a "graphic history"???? Several authors/illustrators have published only in this form, to include biographies... I love it personally!! LOL

Lou

JUSTIN,

if I may,

octogesimus and octingesimus are the ordinal numbers = 80th and 800th, respectively.

The cardinal numbers are octoginta (80) and octingenti, -ae,-a (800).

In this clause both numeralia depend on, and must agree with, "annum" (which is the accusative case) and hence show the same ending.

Oh boy,Ginny, I think we may have a 'contrary to fact"construction here with agerent in imperfect subjunctive? I also think ago can mean many things-I looked it up and my dictionary said "live" with time so could we have--- if they lived 800 years than (if they lived) eighty. I'm not sure what Cicero means here though-the older you get the less old age is a bother?-that can't be it

Traude S: Yes, please do. That makes my translation: "If the 800th year were as the 80th..." But I have not accounted for "ago". You may not realize it but you also have forced me to figure out how to determine declension from the dictionary. Thank you.

dear ginny, i cannot understand why my latin suggestions are not posted. am i doing something wrong? this is what puzzles me. camicat

Ginny, I am going to do this again. Re: Deinde qui minus gravis esset eis senectus ,si octogentesimum annum agerent quam si octogesimum. Then,HOW less burdensome would old age be among those (inevitabilities of nature) if they would be going on their eight hundreth year rather than their eightieth? It seems that 'qui' would be better tanslated by 'how' in English rather than 'which' or 'what'. Camicat I think that most of you have already stated it this way.

My goodness, I declare you all are frightening! hahahaha You're really getting good, I can barely keep up with you!

Hurrah, Camicat, you have conquered, and what a beautiful translation, I like it very much, in fact, I must say you've all really done well with this one!

I also appreciate, Camicat, your continuing to try to be able to post. Those of us who began here on SeniorNet don't realize how different other sites are and those used to them often have an awful time, I'm so glad you persevered (the True Latinist) and have conquered, that's well done!

Traude, please do list the tenses and perhaps a comparison with English to the extent possible Please go right ahead, I'd love to see them.

I like "reproach," myself, people often reproach themselves or their characteristics, but that particular translation might not suit everybody!

Justin, it's a pleasure to see your thought processes! Well done!

Lou2, I am so glad to see you, I have been thinking of you quite a lot as I know you to have a great interest in Latin, it's not without possibility we might offer something like Latin 101 in the Fall, there seems a good bit of interest, THANK YOU for that definition of the graphic historical novel, I feel we're setting all sorts of precedents here, with our hardy band! So glad you're here.

Hahah, Tudy, my sentiments exactly OH BOY! Hahahah Yes, (do we?) I hardly dare to say, DO we indeed have a condition contrary to fact construction?

We DO have two imperfect subjunctives, that would render it "Contrary to Fact Present" and translated by ..."were" (in the if or si clause) and "would be" in the other. The thing that makes me pause is the word order, and the question, it does not begin with Si but rather concludes with it? What do you think?

??!!??

In Edit: I've now found, in looking through quite a few old Latin grammars (one of my hobbies is collecting old Latin text books), I have quite a few from the early 1900's, but I did find in an old Wheelock, several examples of the apodosis (the conclusion) offered before the protasis (the subordinate or si clause) and in each instance, guess HU was the author? Cicero himself! THAT makes me feel better about it.

I thought Dr. Grote's Grammar in the heading offered a very good explanation of Conditional Sentences, if you all want to look thru the table of contents for Conditions?

OK I think you all have cracked the case quite early, and the Loeb translation is: And again, how much less burdensome would old age be to them if they were in their eight hundredth rather than in their eightieth year?

And here's the translation from the internet on this:

They say that it is stealing upon them faster than they expected. In the first place, who compelled them to hug an illusion? For in what respect did old age steal upon manhood faster than manhood upon childhood? In the next place, in what way would old age have been less disagreeable to them if they were in their eight - hundredth year than in their eightieth?

I think Cicero here is about to make the point or may think he has already made the point, as indeed, he has, that again, if you don't have the means within you of a happy life, then ALL ages are burdensome, whether you're 800, 80 or 8. I think his next sentence may confirm this thought, he's a powerful speaker, isn't he?

Now tomorrow we'll see the next sentence and I think you'll see (hopefully I will) what he means, yes, in looking ahead he's definitely making that point in the next sentence.

So he says, effectively, as I read it, it does not matter if you're 800 or 80 (easy for him to talk ahahah) if you carry a rain cloud over your head you are always going to be miserable, it makes no difference, is no harder whether you're 80 or 800. That's the way I read it, what do you think??

I have lots of great stuff coming up!

In a few days we'll read, (and you'll be more than ready hahaah) Livy's Death of Cicero which you will tear thru with joy (suitably subdued) hahaah then

Cicero is about to launch into the 4 Reasons Why Old Age Appears to be Unhappy, we will skip some of the chat about the people of the day and their examples and move to the meat in a few days.

Then we have coming up the extraordinary passage from Cicero in which he distinctly talks about the immortality of the soul, in 43 BC.

And the delights of an agrarian life.

All this, and more, await you, our hardy band, starting tomorrow!

Well done!

Does anybody have any questions or anything they'd like to bring up before we set out boldly again tomorrow?

ginny

The art of translation, it seems to me, is one of catching the meaning and intent of a passage but not necessarily the exact wording. I hate to say the obvious but sometimes it helps to express simple truths.

I think you're right, Justin, and I got up this morning wondering....wondering...IF in fact Cicero is saying something that is sort of an antithesis to our modern thought. We like to feel, as did his own age, that you get smarter and wiser as you age, in fact, somewhere in De Senectute he says that that's why they call them senators, from senex, (senior) an old person).... BUT I wonder here if he's actually saying something else, that it does not matter how smart you are, how wise with age ( 800 is, by anybody's standards, except maybe Noah's, a ripe old age) but it does not make any difference, if you are carrying around baggage and your own little rain cloud, if you don't have the means within your own self for happiness and a fulfilling life, then you're ALWAYS going to be unhappy.

And if that IS what he's saying, he's sort of (or do you feel?) flying in the face of what was thought (and is thought today: I'm older, ergo I'm wiser?)

So let's look now at his punch line: Praeterita enim
aetas quamvis longa
cum effluxisset

Praeterita enim aetas quamvis longa cum effluxisset

Notice how we have broken down this first clause? Into phrases which go together? That's a hint? Left to right.

Notice effluxisset? Do you see that -sset in it? What does that mean?

cum in this clause is NOT "with," but what IS it?

When we have done this entire sentence, by Monday, we will have completed an entire paragraph of Cicero's De Senectute, we may want to celebrate!

I think you should be congratulated, myself.

ginnicus (4th Declension, feminine)

Note to our new posters (there are several looking on).

Once you start to type here, you canNOT go back and look over what somebody else said, you'll lose your post. If you want to see the posts which went before look up in the very top right hand of the page, look for PRINT PAGE . Click on it, you will NOT be printing but you will see a pop up page with the entire posts on it which you can review and then delete, you'll still have this page. A nice feature.

Ginny, I just remembered another meaning of ago-like in "gratias tibi ago" which I think I remember means "thank you" and I certainly do for all the fun we're having here. In our new sentence cum I think is a conjunction meaning when and takes the subjunctive efluxisset which is past perfect subjunctive?.I think praeterita is a past participle modifying the noun aetas so here goes "For age having gone by however long when it had vanished"?

Ginny, Re: Praeterita enim aetas quamvis longa cum effluxisset For, any gone by age, however long when it had unfolded (been lived)-------. Camicat

GINNY, "cum" may well be the key to this clause. In this case "cum" stands with "effluxisset"- which I believe to be coniunctivus imperfecti - and has a temporal meaning.

Freely rendered I propose : When life is over, however long it lasted, ...

ahahahaaa here I thought we had, at last, stumped our Panel of Latinists and I find that not only are you NOT stumped, you have identified the first appearance of our mighty Cum Clauses, well done!

Cum in this case is not translated "with" because it is not followed by an Ablative, but rather a verb in the subjunctive. And although cum clauses are supposed to be the easiest, I've always personally had a bit of a time with them, our choices seem to be since the verb IS in the pluperfect subjunctive as you've noted, circumstantial, causal or adversarial cum clauses, I guess we're looking at circumstantial? I don't see the other two here, do you?

So we have, "In fact, no lapse of time, however long, when it had slipped away………" and now we come to the end of the first paragraph? And we only lack nulla consolatione permulcere posset stultam senectutem.

Oh boy I see that "stultam senectutem" and I remember our old friends senectus AND stulta, uh oh!

now remember the subject of this sentence is aetas ? So aetas is the subject of posset as well in this last clause.

There seems to be some debate about the form of consolatione, some texts have it as consolatio, I don't think it's going to make a HUGE difference in your translation, just remember aetas is the subject of both verbs including posset.

Thank you, Tudy, I agree, it's challenging but fun!

Where are Doris and Prancerus? Where Moxie? Ollie ollie oxen freeeeeeeeeee.

oOH good on you good on you Tudy, well done, well done on all of your parsing, would you believe I read it so fast (shame shame) that I saw praeterea, instead of pareterita? And your mentioning it is actually "I think praeterita is a past participle modifying the noun aetas" is absolutely lovely, many thanks, well done!

Good translation!

And Camicat! Well done!

You guys are really getting good!

Good for you, too, Traude! Yes it's the pluperfect subjunctive, well done. I'm thinking Cum clause, circumstantial, do any of you think differently?

Ok let's look at our VERY LAST clause in this huge paragraph you've manfully (and womanfully) translated!... nulla consolatione
permulcere posset
stultam senectutem

Glide into this one keeping the first part in your mind and keeping in mind that aetas IS the subject of posset here.

consolatione means what it looks like

Our last clause is arranged in the phrases it goes together with.

IS this practice helpful, or not?

I'm ready with the Livy when you get this one!

You may be ready to kill poor Cicero by this time?

He's a lovely teacher, tho, isn't he?

ginnicus (4th Declension, feminine)

To me reading a Latin sentence (I don't know if this will help or hurt) is kind of like holding your breath, it's kind of like reading some authors? They start out something like:

Behind the wrought iron fence, which used to be wood but was replaced when the tornado came, near the lake flowing into the fountain of gushing crystal clear waters brought by an aqueduct from 30 miles away which still works today, where the deer used to roam before the dogs drove them away and the County Pound came to pick up the dogs, thus causing havoc in the town, approximately where Sam first met Alice and carved their initials in the tree, lived a band of Gypsies, famed throughout far and wide by many credulous people for their cunning and spells.

The ancient authors sometimes lead you a merry dance trying to get TO the point and the dance is as important to them as the point, that's why I personally don't like to hop skip and jump all around the sentence trying to find verbs and nominatives, you can have a compound-complex sentence with several of each, but rather take it in the way the author intended (assuming you are reading REAL Latin) you get more of a sense of what the author was tyring to convey and how, that way, that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

GINNY, without question "slipped away" is the perfect rendering of effluxisset !

Parsing the rest of the clause : consolatio, -onis n. fem. is the basis for the English consolation . Here we might also take it to mean comfort .

permulcere (infinitive) = to soften

potesset = could (3rd person, past tense subjunctive.

stultam senectutem (the object is inthe accusative case).

No consolation could soften a stupid old age .

Very freely translated : No comfort could be derived from...

I wonder what Cicero meant by a "stupid" old age? Stupid as in unknowing, or not wanting to know ?

Ginny

I'm still around. For now, not enough time to properly apply to the last two "lessons".

I see the answers have been posted, but I still think I'll look up the words and see what kind of sentence I would have come up with. (do I want to know?? hahahaaaaa)

I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date...no time to say good-bye, hello.. I'm late, I'm late, I'm LATE!!

Be back soon.

Prancer,I love that quote by Beverly Sills. I think Cicero with the word stulta might well apply to me yesterday-I turned on my computer and then picked up my phone to dial a friend and couldn't understand what my computer screen was doing on-Oh well. My try at our last part is -could sweeten a stupid old age with no consolation.(I think that's ablative of means(without a preposition)

Ginny,-- 'nulla consolatione permulcere posset stultam senectutem'. It seems to me that ' nulla consolatione' should be ablative because the subject (the way I see it) is 'praeterita aetas'and not 'nulla consolatio'. Therefore, I think one can say <<Any bygone age would not be able to give any consolation to a silly view of old age>>. Literally, "any age in the past would not be able to soften by any consolation a silly (view of) old age". Camicat

"Praeterita enim aetas quamvis longa cum effluxisset... nulla consolatione permulcere posset stultam senectutem"

"Besides, any stage of life however long since vanished, will be no consolation in foolish old age."

There, I threw my hat in the ring!

Tudy, I've always liked that quote by Beverly Sills; so true.

Tudy and Prancer, are you an opera fan? Beverly Sills was quite a singer. Camicat

Camicat

Yes, I do like opera. Like all types of music and listen to everything.

My computr is functioning erratically. I shall return.

Camicat, I too love all kinds of music and like to play the piano although my little parakeets whose cage is near the piano,fluff up their feathers and go into a sulk whenever I try. Do you all think Cicero was saying that unlessyou have made peace with your "demons" and are"accepting " of yourself or content,it's not the natural loses of age that cause your unhappiness but yourself.But I guess that means that you are accepting of limitations age may place on you as you advance in years.

TUDY, You state: "...making peace with your demons and are accepting of yourself or content......." I think that's exactly what he meant 'in nuce'(in a nut shell). I'm beginning to see what a social psychologist and philosopher he was. I was reading that Cicero was condidered by many the illuminating philosopher of the past,especially to John Adams and Jefferson who both often used him for political and personal guidance . I'm glad that we're reading excerpts from him. Camicat. PS I also enjoy operatic music.

I am listening to "Norma,"-Casta Diva, Sutherland, while trying to figure out the translation of Praeterita etc. Here is my contribution: "Indeed, no period of time, however long, when slipped away, can console or soften foolish old age."

A foolish old age is one given over to regrets for the opportunities missed, for the people we have hurt, and the wrongs we have done. Cicero is telling us to make peace with ourseves, to forgive those who have hurt us and most of all to forgive ourselves for being human.

You know what? This is quite interesting, another benefit of Online Latin, each person can come in at will and, not looking at anything but the hints, give his own translation, and then go back and read everybody else's thoughts and then form his own interpretation, and I love all the different "takes" on it, and ramifications!

I also very much like the ability, on the internet, of enlarging certain phrases, of isolating them out with different sizes and fonts and colors, and of using the Hint Guy, all very good aids to what we're doing.

Usually in a Latin class you'd translate and then the professor would give THE translation and you'd move on, 80+ lines per night, here we can take our time, like Mr. Rogers used to sing and be sure we also have it right, but a benefit is these added slants on what he might have meant, which, I must admit, would not have occurred to me!

One of my personal problems is my translations are always too literal. From this I got that it would not matter how old you were, you could be 8,000, or 800 or 80, if you were foolish (and we'd have to define "foolish" then no length of time once it has slipped away, could relieve a foolish old age. But that thinking is not what we think today? Or is it?

In other words if you're a fool you're a fool, and nothing will change as you age. Some people think people get more childish as they age, and some people think people revert back to what they WERE as they age, do you think that's true?

stulta here, I believe, means foolish.

Well, well done! Are you ready to kill Cicero? Poor guy. This afternoon as soon as I can I'll replace the heading with Livy, who will tell us about the death of Cicero, you'll amaze yourself at how easy it is to read! Don't miss it!!

ginny

OK this is VERY exciting, we're about to switch horses in mid stream here so to speak, and embark on Livy and his description of the death of Cicero.

You will find some historical background in the heading which Pat has beautifully done and the first clause, and what I suggest is that you carefully read the introduction and look only down far enough to the box and then keep in mind the background and see what you can do here with the first clause, just come in and paste your own thoughts and then go back and read the others, that has worked beautifully so far and I think we should adopt it permanently!

Here beginneth Livy, as we mentioned, there's a new book out on Cicero by Antony Everitt and I hope someday we can read it, his actual death was quite poignant, I don't think I'll ever forget the picture of him in the bed with the flies, (while he tried to figure out how to get away). At any rate, see what you can do with Livy this morning on the death of Cicero, the man who…I guess…did not know when to shut up.

If there's anything you'd like to add to the group's understanding of the background, please do!

ginny

Quo vadis?? Whither goest thou? Don't tell me the change to Livy has knocked you all flat?

Maybe you don't want to kill Cicero this soon? hahahah We're coming back to him, what's wrong?

ginny

Ginny

I'm still around (hiding out with Cicero!! haha). Kidding, of course.

I need a little more time today to look things over in here, but , "I'LL BE BACK!"

Ok Livy it is-does that bring back memories.I looked up sub with the accusative or objective case and my dictionary says it can mean"just before so "just before the arrival of the triumvirate,he had fled the city"

Oh good Prancerus, we are looking for your return here eftsoons! Hahaha

Oh well done, Tudy, I am personally thinking that sub here might also mean under the advent since the Second Triumvirate (have just spent a delightful evening reading of the conclave of the 2nd Triumvirate, how Octavian (later Augustus) held out for 2 days in their deliberations, and how they divided, Plutarch says, the world between them as if it had been a piece of property.

Antony wanted Cicero dead, and they finally all agreed. Plutarch (do you all read Plutarch, I love him) says then

Thus united, they made a schedule of above 200 persons who were to be put to death.

Now that's interesting for several reasons and sub can mean also just before, immediately after, into the power of or under.

Anthony Everitt in his book Cicero says

More than 130 Senators (perhaps as many as 300) and an extimated 2,000 equites were marked down for execution and property confiscation. Huge rewards were offered for anyone who killed a proscribed man—100,000 sesterces for a free man and 40,000 for a slave.

…Cicero was proscribed along with the rest of his family….

Cicero and his brother were at Tusculum when they heard about the proscription. They moved at once to the villa at Astura about 30 miles away on the coast and forty miles or so from Rome, planning to sail to Macedonia and join Brutus. Everitt then quotes Plutarch, it's quite touching and rather tragic, I'm afraid, they proceeded carried in litters, a journey of one day, but there's no doubt they were in grave danger.

So now we can see (and I hope you all will read Plutarch on this death), but we can see that Cicero was not in Rome when the so called 2nd Triumvirate was convened, so which of the 4 or 5 translations possible for sub and the Accusative, should we understand sub adventum, what's a good definition for adventum, I had initially said "advent," but I'm wondering if there's a better one?

Good job, TUDY!

ginny

I have just read Plutarch's version and Everitt's rendition of the same story. They are essentially the same. Everitt adds to the death scene some elements that Plutarch does not mention. Cicero "drew aside the curtain of his litter a little and said, 'I am stopping here. Come here soldier. There is nothing proper about what you are doing, but at least make sure you cut off my head properly'.

Cicero assumed the man had already killed other victims and so was very experienced. " What if you'd come to me first?" He stretched out his neck as far as he could and Herennius slit his throat. It took three sword strokes and some sawing to detach the head and then the hands were cut off.

I do not see any reference to Cicero in Livy. I have the works of Livy up to Rome and the Mediterranean. I have always assumed that was all there was to Livy. But who am I to tell Livy how much to write.

Adventum is second declension , accusative case and sub is a modifier meaning "in the power of" or "imediately after" or "just before". My translation is: Cicero left Rome immediately after the arrival of the Triumvirate. No.. He must have left before the Triumvirate's arrival or else he and his brother would not have received the news at Tusculum, Cicero's summer home. Antony, Lepidus, and Caesar met at Bononia to make up the list of victims. so...
Cicero left Rome before the arrival of the Triumvirate.

Justin, great points! You always make me THINK! A million definitions for adventum AND sub! hahahaa The more I think about it the more I like that "before" idea, Sub can mean so much, as Tudy has pointed out!

I also found a reference where sub means, when used with the Accusative, and speaking of time, "close to" so I think we can have some idea of what it means, and again a completely different meaning of "immediately upon," another use by Livy, but we know he was not in Rome when they convened the 2nd Triumvirate. But he WAS in Rome shortly before that when Octavian returned and, ...wasn't he refused by Octavian and left shortly thereafter, sensing, perhaps, that things were not turning in his favor? (He should never have made that little joke about Octavian).

Justin again with the excellent questions and aren't the descriptions wonderful!?! I love reading Plutarch, And Everitt, did you know he did his own translations for Cicero and is writing a new one on Caesar, I'd love to discuss that book!

Thank you for pointing out the differences in authors!

Another good point on adventum, exactly WHAT is that? Is it forth declension adventus, is it the 4th principal part of advenio, as substantive? I found something quite interesting about that word which I think you all might like but first let's look at Livy a moment.

Justin you are right that you don't have that passage in your books of Livy, nobody does. Here's the scoop!

Livy (Titus Livius c. 59 BC- AD 17) wrote his famous History of Rome (Ab Urbe Condita) (from the founding of the city) in 9 BC. He began in Book I with the origins of Rome and the founding of the city, and proceeded.

In Books CIX-CXVI, he treated the civil war, and this constituted a group that was called Belli civilis libri I-VIII, closing with the assassination of Caesar (44BC) . Books CXVIII-CXXXIII continued the work to Actium and Books CXXXIV-CXLII carried the history of Augustus's reign to the death of Nero Claudius Drusus (9 BC). Of Livy's immense work only 35 books survive: Books I-X, XXI-XLV (some lacunae in XLI-XIV) with a long fragment from Book XCI (in a Vatican palimpsest).

Some quotations were given by later authors, notably two passages about Cicero quoted in Seneca's Suasoriae For the rest information can be derived only from material already reduced to epitome scale.

(Encyclopedia Britannica)

And much more! Especially about the relationship of Livy to Cicero, I think it's fair to say Livy was a great admirer and that might account for his own sympathetic account. Fascinating reading.

On adventum, again we have several choices taking up whole columns in Lewis and Short and I'm not anxious to get into it but one thing is quite intriguing and pertains to Cicero and I thought, since Livy liked to copy Cicero's style, it might be informative.

adventus-us 4th declension m, a coming, and approach, an arrival.

advenio, ire, ivi, itum: to come, to approach to arrive at. Here's an interesting small point, when used by Cicero, peculiar to Cicero "especially with the accompanying idea of speed or haste, only a few times in Cicero and never in his orations. Of an historical sense, especially of the advance of the enemy's army in military order and the like; hence without the significance of a hostile attack..." and on and on, I thought you might like to see SOME of the L&S on this.

I like close to, I think for my own part, since we know the story well now, I'm going to say Marcus Cicero, before the convening of the 2nd Triumvirate, had left the city.

I think it means arrived there in the sense that its time had come to be?

What do you all think? Let's go a bit further, we know Cicero left the city of Tusculum where he was with his brother, Quintus. They immediately left by litter

to try for Astura (Cicero's villa near the sea) from there to sail to Macedonia and Brutus and his army. But Quintus had brought nothing from home, had no money and so they decided that Cicero would rush on and Quintus would run home and grab up what he could and they'd meet at the villa near the sea. They embraced with tears and parted, because a Proscription meant the head of everybody in the family.

…..Our story begins here. Marcus Cicero, before the convening of the 2nd Triumvirate, had left the city.

Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur>

Now this sentence makes a lot more sense broken up. So let's take it this way: Primo
in Tusculanum fugit;
inde
transversis itineribus
in Formianum,
ut
ab Caieta
navem conscensurus,
proficiscitur.

transversus, -a, -um means what it looks like or crosswise.

Formianum, -i, n, was an esteate near Formiae, which was nearly 100 miles south of Rome, on the Appian Way, near the sea.

Caieta, -ae, f., is a sea-coast town not far from Formiae.

concsendo-ere, -scendi, -scensum, "as he was going to board ship"

And with conscensurus I believe we may have a new construction here, does anybody want to take a stab at what it might be?

Poor Cicero, on the run, can we follow his footsteps?

Hi Ginny-I seem to remember urus means a future active participle translated about to or going to butthat's as far as I can go right now-back soon to try again

Ginny, <<First he flees to Tusculanum, then having changed his itinerary,he sets out for Formianum to board a ship (that will sail) from Caieta>> Camicat. 'conscensurus' refers to him who will board the ship.

GINNY,

Perhaps I have missed something that was discussed when I wasn't here. But from "urbe," we seem to have passed directly on to the translation of "Primo in Tusculanum fugit ..." without going into "pro certo habens id quod erat, non magis Antonio eripi se quam Caesari Cassium et Brutum posse." However, the historic events are outlined in the header.

Would it be possible to identify the book by Livy that contains this passage ? I'd like to see whether it is per chance in the volume I brought with me decades ago. Thank you

First, he fled towards Tusculanum, from there he followed the road towards Formiamun,thence to embark in any ship away from Caieta, departing...

I read "fugit" as 3rd conjugation, 3rd person singular, perfect tense. I read "itineribus" as neuter, plural, dative case. ie; as a road receiving the litter of Cicero and the foot falls of his slaves. Am I reaching too far?

Ginny,I think it's because we have this sentence Primo as today's work that we're working on that-I don't know what happenedto the other either. I agree with Camicat's translation of our sentence. I also have 2 questions for you Ginny-I had periphrastic pop into my head-is that the future passive participle and means "must" like laborandum est=he must work And are we ever going to try out Cicero's 'De Oficiis'?

OK great points, Everybody, I see what you are saying. Traude, the explanation of the provenance of the Livy quote is in my post 266. On the elliptical material, Traude and Tudy, I aplologize for that, I wanted to present it as Wheelock does, and I did not notice the ellipsis until I had put the original in the heading. I think we will be better off to follow Wheelock there, sorry for the inclusion, anybody who would like to, can certainly translate the elliptical material, I think Wheelock had a reason and would like to follow his own presentation.

You guys are SO sharp, tho I must admit you scared me there for a bit, you all seem on track now!

(Whew, thank goodness) hahaahah

Camicat, I think your translation is excellent, well done! Since you see consensurus referring to Cicero, do you see any particular construction there?

Justin I think I agree with you on fugio. Although fugit could be "he flees," which gives it more immediacy, as in tempus figit "time flies," (when you're having fun as we are here,) hahaaha I see the construction requiring the perfect, and so that's what I am also using, but what construction IS it?

What are you all going to do with transversis itineribus? Isn't that plural? Which use is that?

No I don't think you are reaching too far, are you seeing the plural there the plural foot falls?

I love the way you all are reaching, so fun.

Tudy you said, I also have 2 questions for you Ginny-I had periphrastic pop into my head-is that the future passive participle and means "must" like laborandum est=he must work. Yes, the Passive Periphrastic conjugation, aren't you smart?!? Does use the future passive participle but this (IN EDIT) is the future active participle, I love the Passive Periphrastic Conjugation, good on you for even getting close! The Passive Periphrastic Conjugation uses the gerundive (future passive participle), and some form of the verb sum. The gerundive, as a predicate adjective, agrees with the subject of sum in gender, number and case, and often does indicate

necessary, obligatory, or appropriate action, rather than simple futurity, and this is the case in the passive periphrastic construction. Hence id faciendum est means not simply "this is about to be done, " but rather "this has to be done," hic liber cum cura legendus erit, means this book will have to be read with care. (Wheelock)

Good for you!

So we can see then ( I originally thought this a purpose clause but it's not in the subjunctive even IF the verb to be is understood, it's the wrong tense in conscensurus, and does not follow the sequence of tenses so that's out) a fine puzzle this morning, so! Proficiscor is deponent, (there's a non deponent, too, in proficisco, -ere) and 3rd, it means "proceed or set out" it does not appear to be in the subjunctive, so a Purpose Clause is out tho this certainly seems to indicate purpose.

SO!! "ut" can also mean as or where, with the indicative, and I think those are the meanings we want to use here.

We have Cicero setting out, fleeing, first to Tusculum then turning by various ways or crosswise ways (I get a picture here of him "serpentining," not sure you saw the movie with Peter Falk and the wedding? Anyway, I see him by (what construction is this?) crosswise or transverse ways, proceeding to Caieta, AS he was going to board the ship there if he were to escape.

What do you think of that interpretation? Let me see if I can put it in blocks and you see if you agree or not:

Primo___|| in Tusculanum fugit;|| inde______|| transversis itineribus_____||
At first||to Tusculum he fled|| from thence|| by transverse or crosswise ways||

in Formianum, (proficiscitur)|| ut ab Caieta|| navem conscensurus,|| ~~proficiscitur.~~

to Formianum (he set out__||as from Caieta|| he had to board a boat.||

It's somewhat difficult to line up these translations, do you all feel this is useful, or not? I could use some feedback?

Tudy you ask, And are we ever going to try out Cicero's 'De Oficiis'?

Sure! We had said, or I thought I had posted the order, but we can change that at any time? Is there a particular part of De Officiis you'd like to try?

What I had thought and had posted was that we might finish the first paragraph of De Senectute, (it may seem like a long time but we've actually only done one paragraph?) switch to Livy and the Death of Cicero, then go back to De Senectute and the reasons many find old age troublesome, and then the immortality of the soul (written 40 years before the birth of Christ) before moving on to De Officiis.

However we can move immediately to De Officiis, if you all would rather, after the Livy, I'm game! Which selection would you all like to read in De Officiis next?

ginny

I'm with you Ginnicus. De Senectute,then Death, then De Senectute,then the soul, then de Oficiis. I was a little uncertain when you switched to Livy but it's turning out ok.

Bene, Justin, Gratias tibi! hahahaah

I think it is, too, in some ways I thought it would be easier? And in some ways it's harder, so it MIGHT not have been the best idea. You don't know till you try, you have no way of knowing, we're kind of experimenting here.

But now we've all adjusted, I hope, I think it's good for us? hashahaha Like castor oil?

At any rate, he's not as pure as Cicero, but very few were, but I truly don't care which order we take these things in! It's up to you all, I do, having started, want to finish the Livy first!

What say you all!

ginnicus (4th declension, f.)

Ginnicus

I think I'll just watch, as I don't seem to be understanding all the fine points. Doing a lot of guessing, at best. Maybe I ought to get into that Latin 101, is it? (later)

Carry on Crew!

Hang in there, Prancer. We are all guessing. I, especially, am guessing. Ginnicus knows the way but at times even she seems uncertain about a translation. I think that's the way of Latin.

Physicians are the same way. Half the time they are guessing but they don't tell us that.

Ok Folks

I'll stay. Better get busy and catch up on my guessing.

Many thanks for the support!

Ginny,You ask my opinion of the construction 'ut navem conscensurus etc'. I see it as a purpose clause with a future active participle plus an understood 'sit'; the 'ut' can be translated 'purposefully where', etc. I could not understand how it would have been possible to see the translation "---as he was about to board the ship FROM Caieta to go to Formianum" since as you noted Caeita was rather close to Formium. I must admit without knowing the context I found this rather obscure. Camicat

I am familiar with relative clauses, fear clauses,and jussive clauses but what the heck is a "purpose clause" and what are its related elements?

Oh this is so much fun! I KNEW it would be fun, what I did NOT expect was a challenge and we have one today from both Tudy and Camicat and I have spent hours I kid you not, and enjoyed every minute of it when suddenly I saw the LIGHT! Eureka, you might say, or something. (or you might say why did it take you so long hahaah). I love this. It is taking over my life, too. hahaaha

First: Prancerus, great, we can't manage without YOU, don't worry about the constructions, as you recall we said we would throw in from time to time some grammar points (hahaah assuming we can remember them, which does seem in doubt this morning) just for interest and it looks like Livy is a bit more interesting than I had originally thought.

Right on, Justin, nobody's perfect here, we're all struggling, especially me, that’s the fun of it!

Camicat, you said "---as he was about to board the ship FROM Caieta to go to Formianum" since as you noted Caeita was rather close to Formium. Absolutely right on the location, but no, I took it, see above " to Formianum (he set out, __||as from Caieta, || he had to board a boat.||

That's the literal word by word translation.

I took it that Livy says here he actually fled from Tusculum, and inde from thence, to Formianum, which was his estate near Formiae?

as he was going to board ship from Caieta, which was nearby, and which was a sea-coast town not far from Formiae.

In other words, I took it or I understand what I'm reading there this way:

Cicero fled Tusculum when he heard the news, and from there set out for Formianum, the name of his own villa near the town of Formiae, to pick up supplies and money, as Formiae was near the sea-coast town of Caieta where he was going to catch the boat.

It's clear that he's on the run, moving from Tusculum to the sea coast, but first running across to Formianum, [now many of the sources of the time reveal there were several other stops on the way, which account for the transversis itineribus, Livy is actually funny there, he's left out a lot of the doings, but if you plotted Cicero's actual path, it IS "crossways paths," or roads, wait till you see, but his goal was Astura, which I don't see so far in Livy, from Tusculum to Formianum [and then he sequed, nobody knows why to Astura and then to Caieta! Tune in tomorrow and find out the strange facts!!]

because Formianum is his home, it's nearby, and on the way, it still puts 100 miles between him and Rome, moving south, and he has money and supplies there.

He'll detour that way before setting out to Caieta where he was going to board the boat to take him away, according to Livy and that was his ultimate destination.

In this he was luckier than his brother, Quintus, who had to turn aside to go to his own villa which was NOT by the sea so he could get some money and stuff. I expect it was difficult even then to travel with no money.

They would catch up with each other later. (Everitt says they were to sail from Astura). We're going to need to look up and see where these locations ARE on a map?

But no, what I see here is he left Tusculum and instead of going straight to the sea coast town of Caieta where the boat would be, he went to Formianum, his own villa, to pick up supplies as apparently it's very close to Caieta where they hoped they would rendezvous and catch the ship.

But the problem is that a "proscription" meant that not only were people, many people, marked for killing, but their own lands were also to be confiscated with their property. Everitt writes (page 314)

More than 130 Senators (perhaps as many as 300) and en estimated 2,000 equites were marked down for execution and property confiscation. Huge rewards were offered for anyone who killed a proscribed man—100,000 sesterces for a free man and 40,000 sesterces for a slave.

So you can sort of imagine the scene? This has taken Cicero and Quintus by surprise? They are on the List? Anybody they meet might kill them. They need to flee, fast. They need to get on a boat and go in exile, it worked for others. They have no money. They set out from Tusculum immediately to go south.

Instead of making the bee line for the coastal town of Caieta where they can find the boat they need to carry them away, they are not prepared.

Quintus needs to go home first and get money and stuff, maybe other things or people, and then he will come running on.

Cicero also needs to swing by his home called Formianum, his estate near the town of Formiae, which is practically there, near the coast and the town of Caieta. So the brothers part.

That's how I took that little sentence.

Justin asked about Purpose Clauses, here is what Dr. Grote says about them in the link in the heading above:

THE SUBJUNCTIVE IN PURPOSE CLAUSES

A purpose clause is, as the name tells us, a subordinate clause which explain the purpose for which the action in the main clause was undertaken. English has basically two way to show purpose: (1) infinitive, sometimes supplemented with "in order," and (2) a subordinate clause introduce by "so that" or "so" or "in order that" often with the conditional mood of the verb. Let's look at the infinitive showing purpose first.

"She is coming to help (or in order to help)". "They are sending him to tell you what to do". "The dog has a long nose to smell better". "In order to serve you better, our store has installed anti- theft devices".

Now let's rewrite these sentences using method (2) -- as full subordinate clauses with finite verbs:

"She is coming so that she may help". "They are sending him so that he may tell you what to do". "The dog has a long nose so that it may smell better". "In order that we may serve you better, our store has installed anti-theft devices".

Some of these may sound rather over-blown; our native English sense leans toward simplicity. But there are many cases where we must we the subordinate clause to show purpose. For example, there is no way, short of considerable re-writing, to simplify these purpose clauses down to infinitives.

"We are coming so that you won't have to work so hard". "She is writing the paper so that you can leave early".

The Latin prose you're studying has only one way to show purpose: a full subordinate clause introduced by "ut" or "ne" (the negative) plus a finite verb in the subjunctive mood. It never uses the infinitive to show purpose, the way English does. We can translate the Latin purpose clause in whichever of the two English purpose construction seems most natural to us, but never try to translate an infinitive showing purpose in English directly into a Latin infinitive.

Id facit ut eos adiuvet.

(He is doing it to help them [or in order to help them, or so that he may help them].)

Veniunt ne civitates deleantur.

(They are coming so that the cities will not be destroyed.)

Haec dicit ut discipuli omnia intellegant.

(He is saying these things so that the students will

understand everything.)

Multos libros legit ne stulta videatur.

(She reads many books so that she won't seem foolish.)

OUR problem here, the problem with all that, of course, is there IS no subjunctive in our sentence!

Proficiscitur is not subjunctive, and when I saw conscensurus I got all excited with Tudy and her wonderful identification of the future participle, and thought oh GOODIE Passive Periphrastic conjugation, I love that thing, except it isn't?

Conscensurus is not a gerundive. It is the Future Active Participle, not passive. AND…There's no, as Camicat has brilliantly tried to add, "sit." And we can't ADD or understand sit, and make it "conscsensurus sit" because there is no such subjunctive tense. It makes it a tense that does not exist. I mean no matter how you try to wrangle it in, it won't work.

I believe conscensurus is simply used as adjective the future active participle and is in apposition with "he," as in this example:

Graeci nautae visuri Polyphemum timent The Greek sailors, about to see Polyphemum, are afraid.

I think that's all it is? And one reason I think so is that Wheelock translates this ONE word "conscensurus" as "as he was going to board ship." Thus showing us ut is "as" not "so that in a purpose clause," and clearly the "going to" which is not done with the Passive Periphrastic conjugation, is definitely represented!

So for those reasons, and the fact it slipped up on me that we don't have the gerundive (Future Passive Participle) here but simply the future active participle, it can't be after all the Passive Periphrastic, doggone the luck!, but I never would have seen it, I truly never would have known, I would have flown over it like a bird, had it not been for tudy and Camicat's sharp eyes!

I love this?

and after all this work, I came upon this hahahaha prophetic note from Dr. Grote, in his book and I believe he's talking straight to me!

A FINAL WORD

"Real" Latin uses the subjunctive mood nearly as often as the indicative mood, so, obviously, you must thoroughly master the forms and the uses of the subjunctive. But beyond that, you must also begin to read Latin, not word by word, but letter by letter. You must strive to understand every tiny twist and turn of the morphology of the verbs. As you know, the difference between an indicative and subjunctive mood is very often just one letter; it seems like a microscopic difference, but if you fail to note it, your entire sentence will come grinding to a halt.

I strongly recommend that you first throw this book down for a few hours and let it "cool" off. Next look over the vocabulary briefly, write down the entire entry for each verb, and turn to the self-help tutorials for this chapter, constantly checking the answers.

Then throw the book down. After a few hours -- or the next day - - look over the vocabulary again, and start the assignment. You simply must slow down some and watch your steps carefully as you begin the subjunctive. If you get off the path now, you'll get more and more lost in the future.

I tell you all what? HAVING to think? This having to work at something and struggle with it and trying to remember? I love it. I'm very grateful to all of you for MORE than holding up your own end, rowing right along side, too, this is just FUN (and it's taking over my life). Hahahaah Love it. OK! Let's move on?

Here's our next clause we all know the situation, let's see what our Very Esteemed Panel of Latinists can make of THIS (we're going to take a little bit more of this this time because Wheelock gives so many hints): (NB: This Livy is the first I have used from the Wheelock text and I figure if he gives hints, you should have them, too!)

Unde
aliquotiens
in altum provectum,
cum modo
venti adversi
rettulissent,

aliquotiens: adverb: several times

altum-i, n. the deep, the sea

provectum: proveho, -ere, -vexi, -vectum carry forward (provectum: having sailed out) …goes with eum coming up…

OK Cicero, having waited around and waited around for Quintus, got on the ship finally, despairing (and rightly so) and what happened?

Justin, can you fill us in on what happened to Quintus? Why he never made the rendezvous?

I think he was caught by Antony's men and lost his head. Justinian

Everitt tells the story of Quintus this way (with a little paraphasing); "The decision to return was disastrous. Bounty hunters were already on the family's trail and Quintus was betrayed by the servants. His son was with him... He found a hiding place for his father, and when tortured to reveal its whereabouts, did not utter a sylable.As soon as Quintus heard of this he came out into the open. They were put to death simultaneously."

The stumbling block for me in this clause is rettulissent .

Me too Traude: I see it as pluperfect-subjuctive but what it means eludes me. Could it be related to "retro"?

Ginny, <<Unde aliquotiens in altum provectum,cum modo venti adversi retulissent>>. (From which (boat) several times him (Cicero) driven forth into the deep sea when at another time adverse winds had driven him back........ Camicat. Not seeing the whole sentence makes it most difficult to understand.

I think we want refero, referre, rettuli (also written retuli) relatum: to bear, carry, bring, draw or give back. I've been typing away at this huge Cicero thing, I think you'll find it interesting, THANK you Justin for that additional bit about Cicero, I have got some additional good stuff but it will be tomorrow before I can get it in here.

ginnicus (4th, f).

I figured out retulissent comes from refero and is the subjuntive from the 3rd principle part.I've run out of steam here.

Camicat!! I did not see you there! Welll done! I understand what you mean about the rest of the sentence, that's a good point, would it be helpful to just be able to see the whole thing? I like that reasoning, here it is, as well:

Unde aliquotiens in altum provectum, cum modo venti adversi rettulissent, modo ipse iactationem navis caeco volvente fluctu pati non posset, taedium tandem et fugae et vitae cepit, regressusque ad superiorem villam quae paulo plus mille passibus a mari abest, "Moriar," inquit, "in patria saepe servata."

O! Tudy! (that sounds like Plautus!) not out of steam! Say not so! You're right on rettulissent coming from referro, are you guys finding Livy rougher than the pure Cicero (there's nobody like Cicero) we started with? If so we can sort of flash thru?

ginnicus

I see that "fero" is irregular and that in indicative mood, perfect tense the form changes to "tuli" and becomes "tulissent in the subjuctive, pluperfect. Now why didn't I think of that? It makes perfect sense.

Ginny, I think that it would be clearer if we do it piece by piece as in the past but display the whole sentence also for the sake of context. Camicat

Whence, having sailed several times into the deep sea soon had wished to turn back from unfavorable winds.

Steam's back I think the sentence may mean""whence(I don't know where I got that) several times adverse winds had driven (him) into the deep sea" Ginny,thank you for that info on the periphrastic also I just thought(do aged synapses or what connect feebly then drop/)anyway was "tranversis itineribus" an ablataive absolute like it could mean "when journeys had crossed"? I hope I don't throw a wrench into our progress with my meanderings.

Tudy, You are really good at this. Just stick within the clauses..i.e. 'adverse winds'would be subject of 'retulissent' and not 'provectum' of the previous clause. I hope you don't mind my helpful intrusion albeit Ginny would be a better help. Camicat

Tudy; Cassell's gives "Whence" as first choice for "Unde". It also gives "from where" as an alternative (interog and relative).

JUSTIN, that's what my dictionaries show, too. (whence = from where, "from whence" is tautologous.

OH good good, well done, All, DO, PLEASE help each other, we'll all learn that way!

Hoorah, full steam ahead our Tudy, I think you all are very brave here and doing splendidly.

Ok on the transversis itineribus I will admit something about that bothers me, (I've begun, when I see an Ablative, just leaving it for Tudy ahahahah) but in THIS case I am thinking it isn't an Ablative Absolute because transversis is not a verb, it's an adjective, transversus, -a, -um and means crosswise, transverse. There IS a transverto but it does not have the form of transversus, unfortunately. I took it as Ablative of Means, but I could be wrong, telling the means by which he finally arrived, turns out also he went a LOT of different ways?

Here's a bit more, now this is puzzling? This is from Everitt. I had heard all my adult life that Cicero set out, was blown back, set out, the winds blew and tossed him around, he had to come back to land? Apparently not so? Apparently not. In fact nobody knows why he insisted on being set on land again, check this out?

Now Justinian has summarized Quintus and his son brilliantly, here it is in the larger context. Everitt says,
So Quintus volunteered to go back home, get what was needed and catch up with Cicero later. The brothers hugged each other and parted in tears.
<br. The decision to return was disastrous. Bounty hunters were already on the family's trail and Quintus was betrayed by servants. His son was either with him or within reach: according to one account, he found a hiding place for his father and, when tortured to reveal its whereabouts, did not utter a syllable. As soon as Quntus was told about this, he came out into the open and gave himself up. Each man begged to be killed first.

The conflicting requests were reconciled, for they were taken away to separate parties of executioners, and , on an agreed signal, put to death simultaneously.

Meanwhile, Cicero reached Astura, and, presumably after waiting vainly for Quintus or having received news of his capture, found a boat. He sailed twenty miles south to the headland of Circaeum. There was a following wind, and the pilots wanted to continue their journey, but Cicero insisted on disembarking and walked about 12 miles in the direction of the Appian Way, the road to Rome.

His motives are unclear. Plutarch offers various alternative explanations. One is that he was afraid of the sea….Whatever his motive, he lost his resolution, perhaps fearing he would be recognized on the Appian Way, and turned beck to Astura, where he spent a sleepless night, according to Plutarch, with his mind "full of terrible thoughts and desperate plans."

He now put himself in the hands of his servants and they took him by sea to his villa about 60 miles south at Caeta, near Formiae, which in happier days he had used as a refreshing retreat in the heat of summer. OK so here now we see what the transversis itineribus WERE!

In Plutarch's account, as the boat was being rowed to land, a flock of crows approached, cawing loudly. They perched on both ends of the yardarm and pecked at the ends of the ropes. Despite the fact that everyone thought this so be a bad omen, Cicero disembarked and went to the house to lie down and rest. He is reported to have said, rather grandly, " will die in the country I have so often saved."

Then most of the crows perched around the window, making a tremendous cawing. One of the flew down to the bed where Cicero was lying with his head all covered up, and little by little began to drag the garment w away from his face with its beak. When the servants saw this, they reproached themselves for standing by as spectators waiting for their master to be murdered, and doing nothing to defend him, while these wild brute creatures were helping him and caring for him in his underserved ill fortune. So partly by entreaty and partly be force, they took him up and carried him in his litter toward the sea.

So talk about "The Birds," and the rest is spooky and poignant, too.

So Cicero here is in bad shape and Livy has, perhaps skipped a good bit of his perambulation.

So let's see what, if anything we can make of this thing, you've all done splendidly! OH OH OH, look at this!! Look look! I hope you are proud of yourselves I absolutely howled when I saw it?

Look here! Click on this and see yourselves on Google!

SeniorNet RoundTable Discussions - ---Latin Book Club ~ Cicero

... urbe... Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur…. Today's ... discussions.seniornet.org/ cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.77391ea7!shrinktext=1 - 44k - Cached - Similar pages

SeniorNet RoundTable Discussions - ---Latin Book Club ~ Cicero ... urbe. Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur. Unde ...

discussions.seniornet.org - 44k - Mar 10, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

SeniorNet RoundTable Discussions - ---Latin Book Club ~ Cicero ... urbe... Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur…. Today's ...

discussions.seniornet.org/ cgi-bin/WebX?230@@.77391ea7 - 81k - Cached - Similar pages

---Latin Book Club ~ Cicero

... urbe... Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur…. Today's ... discussions.seniornet.org/ cgi-bin/WebX?formatToPrint@@.77391ea7 - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

Do you know what that is? That is YOU, Dear Ones, on Google! If a Latinist types in Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, now he gets YOU!

Proud of you!

I hope we attract a million avid Latin readers, I have found a super Latin 101 text for September and we're ready to go then, too!

Ok let's give this our best shot here:

Primo in Tusculanum fugit; inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur.

"At first he fled into Tusculanum; from thence by crosswise ways he set out to Formianum, as he was going to board a ship from Caieta. "

Unde|| aliquotiens|| in altum provectum||, cum|| modo|| venti adversi||
rettulissent,||

Whence|| several times||into the sea having sailed out|| when ||now or sometimes|| the opposite winds|| had brought them back||

So I assume here that "unde" refers to Caieta from whence he set out into the sea.

So it seems fairly clear that Livy is telling the "old story" or version, but Livy was a big fan of Cicero's too, you have to remember.

modo here occurs twice and here we can see why Camicat is right , we need the entire sentence just for reference to look at because we would have missed the second modo. So

modo…modo can mean now…now but it can also mean sometimes…..xxx and sometimes yyy, or at one moment xxxx and at another moment yyy, and all that depending entirely on what the sentence means, let's see what it does mean, let's go forward, what do you think? Livy is saying Cicero is getting knocked around in the wind on the boat, and I think he's going to give up, maybe he WAS tired of being thrown all around in the tossing boat?

iactatio-onis, f. tossing

At any rate, this next little clause is a TOUGHIE! So don't feel bad if you have to struggle with it. There's an ellipsis which is not helping any, let's just tackle it together!

Unde aliquotiens in altum provectum, cum modo venti adversi rettulissent, modo
ipse
iactationem navis
pati non posset,

taedium tandem et fugae et vitae cepit, regressusque ad superiorem villam quae paulo plus mille passibus a mari abest, "Moriar," inquit, "in patria saepe servata."

you see that last quote? You can see it again in the Everitt information!

What do you make of this one?

ginny

TUDY! WHAT??!!?? " is tautologous." WHAT? hahaaha

GINNY, 't was I who said "from whence" is tautologous (redundant), because whence (alone already) means from where, idem for thence (not from thence).

TRAUDE!! C'est vous! OK well add "tautologous" to my vocab, what a WORD! hahaah don't you want to know the derivation of THAT killer, I see logos and I suspect Greek!

It was Greek to me, thank you!

ginny

GINNY,<< .....cum modo venti adversi retulissent,modo ipse iactationem navis non posset>> When at one time (whenever)adverse winds drove him back,he in a short time or soon (then)would not be able to endure the tossing of the ship. Camicat

I'm putting down that "tautologous" for my scrabble book of words to use-that'll stump my friends if I get to use it I bet and I can't figure out what Justin meant by his comment"oh" was that"oh My???"kidding I think the sentence means too like Camicat wrote"sometimes he himself could not endure the tossing of the ship(I found patior was a deponent verb) This is fun.

Perhaps the multi-faceted modo ... modo can be construed as meaning 'at one time' ... 'at another time' for the two obstacles to Cicero and his party: on the one hand the adverse (or unfavorable) winds that pushed them back, on the other hand the (seasickness-inducing) turbulent sea in which the ship was haplessly tossed.

Is, I wonder, the origin of "pati" the verb patere (pateo, patui)? Is "cepit" a form of the verb capere (capio, cepi, captus)?

TUDY, more fun: another intersting term, similar in meaning to tautology, is pleonasm n. (pleonastic, adj.) for the use of more words than are necessary to describe an idea; e.g. the pleonasm of sensational advertising.

WELL DONE Camicat, that's the ticket, that's quite good!

Tudy, well done on the patior, that's IT, and I love your "this is fun," I'm so glad because I'm enjoying it, no end.

Traude, I like your on the one hand and on the other hand, very much, good work on that translation, very neat job of it, and yes it's capio and then patior.

As you all know I took the Livy on the Death of Cicero from Wheelock and he only includes a small excerpt, so this morning I went over to the library where I used to teach and they have an excellent classics section and was able to see it in place, and it's quite clear that Seneca is directly quoting Livy, and for a purpose. The ending is likewise poignant that Wheelock did not include and we do, I think, want to include it, as well.

Since Wheelock has left out the elliptical clauses and nobody gave them a shot, let's just include the first one which I slipped up and put in the heading (I just did it again but hopefully nobody noticed?) hahahaahah anyway let's not leave a stone unturned if it appeared in the heading, in our all over view here, so we can have the entire picture, we know who Antony and Cassius and Brutus were. So here's where we are:

M. Cicero sub adventum triumvirorum cesserat urbe,
Marcus Cicero had left the city before the convening of the Second Truimvirate,
pro certo habens id quod erat,
as, as a certainty he held it that
non magis Antonio eripi se quam Caesari Cassium et Brutum posse.
he no less from Antony was likely to be rescued than from Caesar Cassius and Brutus would be.
Primo in Tusculanum fugit; First he fled to Tusculanum
inde transversis itineribus in Formianum, from thence by crosswise ways (I still have problems with this but we know what he means) he set out (proficiscitur) to Formianum,
ut ab Caieta navem conscensurus, proficiscitur. as from Caieta he was going to board a ship. br>
Unde aliquotiens in altum provectum, From there (Caieta) several times he set out to sea,

cum modo venti adversi rettulissent, Now as you saw in my earlier post, modo….modo has several different meanings, such as "now…now.." or "sometimes…. Sometimes," etc. and here we might want when sometimes the opposing winds blew them back,
modo ipse iactationem navis
and sometimes he himself the tossing of the boat

And that's where we are today. (I think! You all are so fast I don't know WHERE we are, so let's do this for today! Let's build on what you have said and add this to it to make the whole? hahaah

modo
ipse
iactationem navis
pati non posset,

taedium
tandem
et fugae et vitae
cepit,

Poor Cicero, the continued Seneca quote by Livy is quite poignant and I think we need to read it all, I had no idea, not ever having read it, that his death was such? I thought Pompey and Caesar and maybe Crassus held the poignant death honors, I believe we'll see Cicero may have outdone them all.

Also the crows? I have been thinking about the crows? What did you think of them sitting around his BED!! I remember when a car hit a baby deer in our drive, the crows (do they eat flesh like buzzards?) sat in the trees and called each other to come, it was awful, I had to cover up the body, imagine lying in a bed and having crows all around you, how spooky, some thought it an ill omen (boy, I would have, too) but his servants felt bad the crows were trying to help and rallied themselves, I imagine they were all scared to death.

It's hard to imagine the atmosphere, Cicero had been very nasty about Antony, he made speech after speech and he was the most powerful orator of his day. He just would not shut up, and I think that sealed his doom with Antony and making a joke about Octavian (Augustus) didn't help either, he was a dead man and he knew it. Let's see how he comports himself.

The problem is that landing, what do you think? Maybe he WAS as Livy is about to say, tired of being thrown all over the boat, he hated sailing anyway, but why land? We'll never know. In our section today Livy is explaining how it finally "got to him."

what do YOU make of it?

ginny

GINNY, what satisfying progress, if I may say so.

"itineribus" could be expressed also as "routes", but "transversis" could hardly be translated differently.

The ship may have changed course for whatever reason, or veered from a set course, or perhaps criss-crossed, but that is an assumption unsupported by the original text.

However, in the interest of smooth reading it is permissible, actually recommended, to arrange the translated sentence so that it sounds natural to the ears of the non-Roman contemporary reader, not painfully reconstructed.

Traude, You ask an interesting seem-alike; is the origin of 'pati' from 'pateo,patere,patui? As you suspect it is not and a way I remember the difference is that patior,pati,passus means to endure as the English cognate 'patient' or 'patience' and 'pateo,patere (to open)has the English derivative 'patent' that which is OPENED to the public. Camicat

(He)at one time turned back from unfavorable winds and at another turned back of his own accord suffering (not able to endure) from the toss of the ship. (He was either sea sick or suffered a bruised butt.)

Ginnicus: My "Oh!" response to Traude was intended to signify that I was momentarily overwhelmed by "tautologous". I fully intend to parade that out at my very first opportunity. That's a lovely word.

Super job, Justin, well done! ('Twas not I with the "oh," but I agree, OH!) hahahaha

Now today, you all having conquered (hahaha am getting ready for Caesar and his wonderful Ablative Absolutes haahahah So! These sentences having been translated so well.... and you've conquered the part about he was not able to stand the tossing about of the ship) what do we make of this last part now, note the ET....ET....and you recall that means something other than "and...and..." and note the second modo which you all have caught now. Poor Cicero.

Traude, I believe the itineribus Livy refers to is concerned with Cicero's travels on land, not the water, as previously mentioned in one of my posts above, but it COULD include water as well, as we know he did a lot of criss-crossing before he got to the place in the text we are now, and Livy left most of that out.

(But humorously referred to it with those two words itineribus and transversis). That's for sure. I am almost tempted to use the word "road," but will not, and will stick to "ways" so as to include the by sea adventures as well.

On the translations, mine will always be as literal as I can possibly be so that our group here can see how the sentences are put together, but all of YOU please feel free to be as FREE and idiomatic as you'd like!!! The more you sound like 2004 the better it suits me!

Are you all not struck by the difference in style between Cicero and Livy? Isn't it interesting? I'm glad we sequed, however hard the adjustment has been, to this new style of writing, I believe it's been a very instructive switch, and useful to us in approaching our translations! How shall we conclude these clauses now and what do YOU all make of the all over thought?

modo
ipse
iactationem navis
pati non posset,

taedium
tandem
et fugae et vitae
cepit,

...finally weariness from both flight and life took hold, ...

Cepit is the perfect tense, singular,third person, of Capio- a third conjugation verb. It is third person singular because the subject is "weariness".

Traude,Thank you for pleonasm-my scrabble friends will really have to look out now. I think the last part of our sentence is very sad.I found capio can also mean suffer so "taedium tandem et fugae et vitae cepit=at last he suffered weariness of both flight and life" et et I think can mean both--and

Martial's poem titled a "Villa at Formiae" is related to our topic.

Sweet Formiae, the pleasant home
Appolinaris loved well,
Released from the cares of Rome
Tis here that he would choose to dwell;
...
Though fair be Tusculum's retreat,
And Caieta has ancient fame, ...
Here is no stagnant sea or air
The deep, a living thing, exhales
Soft breath to toy with Thais' hair
And gently fill the painted sails; ...
Oh! Happy they who may abide
In this fair place although in thrall;
These pleasures do their lord provide,
His servants have the joy of all.

Justinian!! Just when I thought you could not surprise us more, LOOK at you! I love that, thank you SO much for that one!

How lovely it is. And it mentions ALL of our cities, what a FIND!!Oh! Happy they who may abide
In this fair place although in thrall;
These pleasures do their lord provide,
His servants have the joy of all.
Love that!

Some of these country estates by the sea were quite luxurious, sort of an early Palm Beach? I just love that

Tudy, I also like your "suffer," and I also like Justinian's "took hold of," I seem to recall capio and vita means something else, too, idiomatic, but I can't find it in Cassells, will look further tomorrow, but I think you are both right, weariness or tedium took hold of both his life and his flight, bless heart, so he, (let's do the entire end of the sentence since I have already translated the quotation Morior…. in my previous post?

regressusque
ad superiorem villam
quae
paulo plus
mille passibus
a mari
abest,

"Moriar," inquit,
"in patria
saepe servata."

So here Cicero makes a decision, he's tired of being thrown around in the boat and tired of fleeing, and it gets sadder,

regredior, -i, -gressus sum means go back

I'm very glad to see our old friend mille passuum again, aren't you?

Let's see what we can do with this!?!

Now quo vadis on our group here? Where is Moxie and Prancerus? Where Camicat? Where is Doris? Traude we need a new word! I agree with you we're really smokin' here!

Ollie ollie oxen Freeeee…Actually the Cambridge Text we'll be using for Latin 101 in September has a good bit on country houses, beautiful illustrations, photos and diagrams!

Ginny

I'm here....have been watching and did get a similar translation to the last passage. Only had one "different" thought (leave it to me). I think I figured he would fool them and "doubled back" as the current saying goes! Laugh of the day, huh!!!

Will work on this one tomorrow...nodding off right now!

Prancerus!! THERE you are! So glad you're still here and again it's funny but while on land, he did a lot of doubling back, I think that's what that itineribus transversis is, apparently scholars don't know why? I'm sure it made sense to him. Imagine being on the run, they set out immediately when they heard the news, they had no money for a long trip or exile, Quintus thought he'd swing by his country home, pick up some stuff, maybe warn (there was no TV no phones no radio) his own family to run, anybody at all they met could kill them as the news spread, what a horror, and here's Cicero, making for the coast, they'll meet up and get on the ship together, but he's got a country house near the point of disembarkation, and yet, he seems to have done a lot of transversis itineribus as posted above, so I think you're on the right track generally.

Quintus never shows up so Cicero boards the ship without him, that must have been a grievous moment, itself. Also, there is dispute, as I posted earlier, about those winds. Apparently the sailors felt that they were OK but Cicero thought otherwise and actually had them put ashore and proceeded for quite some way along the Appian Way, the main highway back to Rome. WHY did he do this? Nobody knows.

So as we are reading now, he's tired of the stress and tired of running, he's not a young man, he's a poor sailor and tired of being miserable and thrown around in a boat, he's just had it...And he says......?

GINNY, <<Having returned to his country house further along the coast, which is a bit more than a mile from the sea, he says, "I will die in the country that was often saved (by me). Camicat. Ginny, you ask where was I in the previous translation. When a previous translation cannot be added to, I do not come in. I am sort of a starter or a relief pitcher in the translating game. But always ready.

"and having returned to the higher?villa which was a little more than a mile from the sea he said'I will die in the native land often served(by me)" Ginny that's my best try

After returning directly and quickly to his superior country home, a mile back from the sea, he said "I say I will die in the country that I have served".

Not sure this makes good sense....but, throwing my hat in the ring!

...returning a lttle more than a thousand paces from the sea to his fine country house saying, I will die in the country I have saved again and again.

Well good work, Latin Panel, not much gets past you! Well done, I like ALL of your versions!

I will admit superiorem gave me a slight fit as I was not sure which of the villas Livy was referring to, since he left out so much of the story, which we now know. Superiorem is the comparative (superior-oris) of superus, which would mean the higher or upper, so I am assuming here he means a villa inland from the coast? And we know, from reading Everitt, that when he made the famous statement "I will die in the country I have so often saved," that he was, in fact, at his villa 60 miles south of his initial disembarkation on the Appian Way, at Caeta, near Formiae. So I guess my own translation then might go,

taedium tandem et fugae et vitae cepit,

finally, weariness of both flight and his life took hold of him, and …

regressusque ad superiorem villam quae paulo plus mille passibus a mari abest,

having returned to the inland villa, which is little more than a mile from the sea…

"Moriar," inquit, "in patria saepe servata."

he said, "I will die in the country so often saved (by me)."

Morior is deponent and aren't you glad to see our old friend mille passuum again, one thousand paces, or a Roman mile.

I think you've all done a wonderful job!

Is there anything that gives you any pause in those sentences? Camicat, I SEE! Hahahah

You can see here some bitterness on Cicero's part? He had risen to great heights in the Senate, but one wonders why he delivered so many polemics against Antony and why he didn't realize that he would have to pay for them? Is this a case of a man getting above himself and feeling invincible? What do your studies of the life of Cicero reveal about this aspect of his character? He seems bitter to me, here, what does Plutarch say as a conclusion to his section?

Because it gets worse, for poor Cicero, but he still had his servants to depend on and as we have seen they were quite moved by the crows around his bed.

Satis constat
servos
fortiter fideliterque
paratos fuisse
ad dimicandum,
ipsum
deponi lecticam
et quietos pati
quod sors iniqua cogeret
iussisse. Prominenti ex lectica praebentique immotam cervicem caput praecisum est. Nec satis stolidae crudelitati militum fuit.

Wheelock gives these hints for translation:

constat means "it is agreed,"

ad demincandum is from dimico (1) fight to the finish

lectica, -ae means "litter," as you see in the heading

quietos (with eos understood) means "them quiet," (it's the sujbect of pati….them quietly..quietus,-a, -um)

sors, sortis: lot

iniquus,-a,-um: unfavorable, unjust

The subject of iussisse is Cicero himself. His servants were prepared to defend him, BUT...

what happened?

OK Ginny,I feel a spurt of energy after yesterday's snow(yuck) I know in our new sentence iussisse is perfect infinitive of iubeo and that we have indirect discourse after constat but I really can't make sense out of the end but here's my try-"It is agreed that the servants had been prepared bravely and faithfully for fighting to the finish,to place him on a litter and quietly endure because ? an unjust lot forced him to have ordered??(that doesn't make sense of course

I think that's a marvelous start, Tudy!! Snow and all hahaha

I will admit to a knee jerk reaction to jusisse or iusisse, I immediately thought AHA! Jussive !!! But I'm having some problems fitting that INTO this? hahahaah THIS is the part I love, trying to figure out what I'm looking at. Cicero is the subject of iusisse, he ordered, I think? But I'm having trouble with the constructions of constat as indirect discourse and jusisse as jussive: there's no ut or ne.

A lovely puzzle this morning. Quietos seems to refer to the slaves and what he ordered them to do, that Accusative again is ringing all kinds of bells, it's just that those bells are somewhat clangorous after all these years! hahaha

I am seeing cogeret as the subjunctive of the relative clause beginning with quod. I am dimly remembering jubeo (or iubeo) taking the infinitive, would it still be a Jussive Noun Clause with the object in the Accusative? That might fit here, he ordered THEM to .....gotta look up the jussive noun clause with jubeo and stop JUMPING the GUN! hahahaah But you know how it is when you've been away for a long time? You think you see an old friend coming across the field and you JUMP!

Let me JUMP to a dictionary and grammar, I'll try Dr. Grotes in the heading here, we MAY, (I say MAY) have indirect discourse as Tudy has pointed out, a relative clause, and POSSIBLY a Jussive Noun Clause, but the "strong are saying nothing till they see." hahaahah

ginnicus (4th, f.)

GINNY, It remains constant that his servants had been prepared to fight bravely and faithfully and that he himself had ordered that his litter be laid aside; that they quietly endure what unfavorable circumstances might compel (them to do). Camicat.

satis, adv. = more than enough

servos fortiter fideliterque = the strong and loyal servants

paratos fuisse ad dimicandum = were prepared to fight to the finish,

dimico, v. = fight with weapons drawn

sors, sortis = fate; iniqua = uneven, unfortunate, unjust, capricious

Freely rendered

Though it as abundantly clear and a given fact that the strong and loyal servants were prepared to fight to the death (for him), he ordered them to set down the litter to wait quietly what Unpredictable Fate would mete out.

This one is difficult to work out. My effort follows:
It was agreed among the prepared and faithful servants to fight to the finish but he ordered them to be quiet and allowed them to put down the litter to experience capricious fate.
Ipsum, meaning "self" I translate as "he," "Cicero", or "Cicero himself."

Hooo wow, had you given up on me? Hahaahah I was beginning to think I was going down with Cicero in the ship hahahaha, no the house chose to break a few things down and today delighted in plumbing problems, (probably because we don't have any of those old Roman pipes and aquifers!) At any rate, I have been reading and am very impressed with each of your translations, you've done a bang up job!

In cleaning out some of the mud room I came on this and thought you all would enjoy seeing it, now Livy in our passage here, skips a GREAT DEAL of stuff, as you know from the Everitt quotes above, Cicero had disembarked and set out for the Appian Way according to Everitt, and had actually gone 12 miles toward that road, and there is some fascinating speculation as to what he intended, when he turned and went to Astura, thence by sea to his villa about 60 miles south of Caeta, near Formiae, and Everitt reports that even as the boat drew near shore, a flock of crows approached, "cawing loudly they perched on both ends of the yardarm and pecked at the ends of the rope." (Cicero by Anthony Everitt.) Cicero then entered his house, and the episode of the crows at the bedside, which caused his servants to feel ashamed and gave them backbone.

Everitt continues:

They were too late. A small party of men, led by a Military Tribune, Popilius Linus, whom Cicero had once successfully defended in a civil suit and a centurion Herennius, arrived at the villa. Finding the doors bolted, they broke them down , but those inside disclaimed all knowledge of their master's whereabouts.

Then a young feedman of Quintus named Philologus, whom Cicero had educated, told Popilius that Cicero's letter was being carried toward the sea along a path hidden by trees. In a flanking movement, Popilius wentaround to the shore where he could meet the party when it came out of the woods. Meanwhile Herennius hurried along the path. Cicero heard him coming and told his servants to put down the litter. This was the end and he was no longer going to run away.

So it looks like Cicero was betrayed, and more than once and how he met his end we're about to see, but I thought you might like to see some stuff on The Appian Way, put out by the Archaeological Society of Rome who have started running small bus on and off tours down it.

Here is the front of the brochure for the Appian Way: click to enlarge

And here

you can see part of the inside which folds out more than 3 feet, showing you by mile (notice this is Mile 6) the ruins on either side of this most famous road in antiquity. Here is a bit about it from The Appian Way

Stazio, a Latin poet, called it " Queen of roads" for the splendour of its burial monuments, the splendid patrician residences in the suburban section and for the evocative beauty of the land that it crossed. In the valley that separates the Celio from the Aventino there was once the Capena gate, today disappeared, from where the most imposing of the consular roads of the town began, the Appian Way.

Opened in 312 b. C. by the censor Appio Claudius, during the Sannite wars, in order to join Rome "caput mundi" with the southern provinces of the peninsula, with Africa and the East. It became in short time the elected road, sacred to the cult of the dead, crossed during the Latin holidays by the crowd going to the temple of Giove on the summit of mount Cavo or to the temple of Diana, by the shores of the Nemi lake. The Appian way ran here straight -after this the name of " recto " - at first followed the line of an existing road to the Alban hills and reached the Agro Pontino. After the Appio Forum it touched the city of Terracina and it continued for Fondi until Capua. Some year later it was extended via Benevento and Venosa, native land of Orazio, and a century later to Taranto and Brindisi.

In the first years of II the century A.D. the emperor Traiano added his name to the road. With the New Appian Traian Way it was possible to go from Rome to Brindisi in 13/14 days with a total distance of 540 kilometres. The road was approximately 4.15 meters wide, enough to permit the transit of two chariots at the same time. Two sidewalks in earth delimited by stone flanked the track. Every 10/13 km in the most busy sections were aligned along the road the so-called "stations" for the change of the horses and " taberne ", which offered refreshments and lodging for travellers.

The construction was extremely difficult , was realized solving natural difficulties with an amazingly modern plan of conception which made of it a solid, rational road with easy access.

Bridges across the rivers were built, valleys filled, heights flattened, channels dug, banks raised in order to contain waters of the rivers, it was covered with blocks of hard basalt that still today emerge from the road.

After the fall of the empire and barbarian invasions the road fell into decay and was abandoned. The monuments were sacked and lost their works of art and decorations; Grass grew wildly upon the road which slowly disappeared from sight. Columns, marbles, statues, friezes, relieves started to embellish the new buildings of the City, the new Christian basilicas and noble castles. Towards the half of the ' 700 historians started to dig discovering important works and collecting fragments.

The first Christian cemeteries rose along the Appian Way at the end of the I century: along this road the most important necropolis were discovered, the Catacombs of S. Callisto, going back to the II sec., and those of S. Sebastian, in which were housed for a while the bodies of the two Apostles of the Casal Rotondo, approximately km. 4,500 long: marble ruins, relieves or broken statues, other ruins covered by grass, along the road flanked by high pine trees and cypresses of the Campagna Romana; on a side run the arches of a Roman aqueduct, at the horizon emerges the profile of the Roman Castles and towards the sea the plain, a sight out of time that has fascinated many great poets, from Orazio to Ovid, Goethe, Byron, Carducci, D'Annunzio e Roman Church: Peter and Paul.

The history has confirmed that the Apostle entered in the city walking along the Appian Way. The most interesting section of the Appian Way goes from the tomb of Cecilia Metella to...
read the link to learn more!~

Thought you might enjoy that, back asap!

ginnicus 4th (f)

Wow, did you see yesterday's USA Today? They reveal there's a tremendous interest and upswing in Latin today! (Hey, we always knew Latin Lives Today, right?) We here on SeniorNet are SOOO au courant! hahahaha

They say there are more people studying Latin at the university level than at any other time since the MLA began keeping stats in 1958, of course you know the Mel Gibson movie features Latin and Tina Turner's new album has songs in Latin and suddenly Latin has become "cool," according to USA today, "Latin is everywhere." Well yes, we knew that! Hahahaah

Ok today let's take a closer look at our old translations and see what we think and then move on.

I am very glad we're reading this about Cicero's death, as I had no idea, really, what a dignified end he made, I think it's always instructive to read these types of things, and keep in mind Livy was a huge fan of Cicero so his account will naturally be slanted.

Ok here's our Latin, you've all done an incredible job, do you have any questions or things you want to bring to the attention of the group?

Satis constat servos fortiter fideliterque paratos fuisse

Certainly (satis here means enough and I think is an intensifier of contsat: it is agreed) It is certainly agreed that his slaves bravely and faithfully were prepared

ad dimicandum,

to be going to fight to the finish

ipsum deponi lecticam

when Cicero himself the litter to be put down (present passive infinitive of ponere)

et quietos

and calmly

pati quod sors iniqua cogeret

to suffer

that which he judged to be the lot (sors) of an unjust Fate. (I threw Fate in there because of sors iniqua, unjust lot)

iussisse

he ordered.

It is certainly agreed that his slaves bravely and loyally showed readiness to fight to the death, and Cicero himself ordered them to put down the litter and suffer calmly what he considered to be the lot of an ujust Fate.

So here we have Indirect Discourse introduced with constat, it is agreed, and the verb in the infinitive fuisse and the subjects in the Accusative: servos.

And then we have a relative clause introduced by quod (which) and the subjunctive cogeret, and the jury is still out on the Jussive Noun Clause. It IS true we have a jussive here, as part of indirect discourse (iussisse) however we do NOT have ut or ne and we don't seem to have a subjunctive other than the one in the relative clause, which makes me think this may not, in fact, be a Jussive Noun Clause. It's kind of a shame we don't because it would be a tremendously complicated thing! Hahahaah But I don't believe we can add that to our list unless you make a strong exception here to the lack of a subjunctive and "ut or ne," in the sentence, and the verb continues in the infinitive and the subject, even "ipsum, " (Cicero) in the Accusative. Strange, it's strange, to me, to see the iussive force without a Jussive noun clause but I don't believe we can say it's here.

NOW~ On with the show and Cicero is about to meet his end let's just take this one sentence: Prominenti
ex lectica
praebentique
immotam cervicem
caput praecisum est.

promineo,-ere-ui: jut out, step forth, ei prominenti: as he stepped forth:

cervix, -vicis, f. neck

praecido, -ere, -cidi, -cisum (prae-caedo, cut) cut off

What just happened?

ginnicus (4th, f.)

Heavens to Mergatroid! (or is it Murgatroid?)

HE WAS BEHEADED???

BINGO our Prancer!! And there's more, unfortunately, to come.

ginny

He extends his neck from the litter, calmly, to allow the head to be cut off.

That's doing it with dignity.

Ginny, thank you so very much for all that info on the Appian Way-in school I always daydreamed I'd drive a chariot along that-oh well, For our new sentence,here goes my try ' As he stepped forth from the litter and showed his immovable neck his head was cut off' Oh my, that's putting an end to it.

Has everybody had a chance to give this a try? I hate to rush in with what I think it might be and mess up somebody else's thoughts?

In one of the Christmas Carol movies, the narrator, going over to Tiny Tim in the corner says something like but now my little cock sparrow, in terms of affection and love, having done all the major work of the book, Scrooge, the Ghosts, etc., but returning to what he loved the most: the small child (who carried the moral of the piece).

And that’s the way I feel about this discussion and what we're doing here.

Tudy, you're welcome, I know what you mean. I had gone to Rome many times and could not even FIND the Appian Way, can you believe that? It was not on tours and I did not know how to get there or what it looked like. I had seen photos of it with those huge stones going straight off in the distance with the funny pine trees, and THAT was what I wanted to see, but on my trip to the St. Sebastian Catacombs I found a city street with busses and cyclists and restaurants, and nothing that resembled the ancient Via Appia. So I despaired. In fact one year I WALKED to it, I walked from the ruins of the Baths of Caracalla, through the Porta St. Sebastiano (where I was astounded to see crossing the arch the remains of an aqueduct and ran all over the brambles trying to get a photo of it) but THAT my dear friends, is a long hike.

You walk and you walk and you walk, past the villas of modern day movie stars, and you walk and you walk and you WALK, but you NEVER see that picture you have in your mind? and it's a city street and you pass the mile markers and FINALLY finally you get to the Catacombs. And the Tomb of Metella. But you've only begun. Then you have to walk and walk again, the thing is so long it's almost impossible. The new Archeological Tour bus goes down it a good bit, (well you all saw the Mile VI in the brochure I posted, you're just getting started on Mile VI). Here's a shot

You can see it's blurry and that's because the little bus is bouncing over those old Roman stones like a ball. They slow down and try to ease up on the ancient pavement but it's hard. Then there is a stretch no vehicle or bicycle can go on so they veer off and leave that and then rejoin the Appian Way at a later juncture, it looks pretty isolated there but this year I am determined to walk it, am trying to get in shape, I would like to see it. And when I do this time, Tudy, I'll walk it for YOU! I'll take specific photos of what's along side, I've never seen the section that you can't drive on, you can't take anything with tires in it, and by the time you get TO it you're exhausted.

Here is my favorite photo of the Appian Way and again it's blurry but there's a reason:

That's how it looks alongside the road, they are trying to restore many of the tombs found there, but right now it's pretty ruined.

Then the bus goes out to the absolutely incredible Park of the Aqueducts, which I hope we can talk about when we read Pompeii here in July, the new fiction account of the Eruption of Pompeii and a man who repairs aqueducts, it's said to be wonderful and we'll offer it in July.

NOW!! On to your translations, Quo Vadis, All of you?

ginny

Prominenti ex lectica praebentique immotam cervicem caput praecisum est.

I want to say I had a slight problem with this and I want to blame Wheelock (hahaha talk about the mouse or gnat blaming the lion) because of his inclusion of the note which I put here: ei (this in the dative of "is") prominenti "for him stepping forth, as he stepped forth…" because I had somewhat of a difficulty figuring out if he actually physically stepped forth or if he stuck out his head. Because Wheelock also gives the definition of "jut out," as well as "step forth," I was confused.

So he was prominenti he either stuck out or got out and he was praebenti, holding out, his immotam cervicem, his neck immobile, or motionless, and his caput praecisum est, his head was cut off.

I've spent an awful lot of time thinking about this.

It is NOT easy to cut off somebody's head? Do you remember Ann Boleyn when she was going to have hers cut off, making sure she gathered up her hair so it would go smoothly and the executioner being sure his ax was sharp?

It's hard to cut off the head of a chicken, much less a person and I don't imagine that this soldier had a very sharp sword? I just can't imagine the scene here. Would he have leaned out of the litter and they just struck it off? Or would he have gotten out on foot, (then there would be no holding of it immobile) I'm going to go with he leaned out, it's confusing!

And it's difficult, this is probably, for all its apparently simplicity, one of the hardest ones, the construction (Wheelock says, I would not have remembered) in prominenti and praebenti, is Dative of Reference or Interest, boy I haven't seen that gomer in a long time, so looked it up:

Wheelock says, The dative case is often used to indicate a person or a thing to whom some statement refers, or from whose perspective it is true, or to whom it is of special interest. This "dative of reference or interest," can sometimes be translated with "to" or "for," but often some more elaborate phrase is required , depending upon the context, occasionally the function seems to be simply possessive, but the intended force is generally more emotional:

Examples:

Si quis metuens vivet, liber mihi non erit umquam. If anybody lives in fear, he will not ever be free—as I see it (mihi) or to my way of thinking.

Caret tibi pectus inani ambitione?
Is your breast free from vain ambition—are you sure tibi</font)

Nullius culpae mihi In my own heart mihi I am conscious of no fault.

While I was doing this, I did notice on Dr. Grote's site, that his entire grammar is downloadable from the internet, so if you're looking for a good grammar free with excellent explanations (he does not cover the Dative of Interest or Reference) you can avail yourself of that offer!

So here we have sort of a puzzle. So I'm going to say for my own part what you all have, that he leaned out and held his head still and his head was cut off.

think a moment what that must have meant, I think Justin was right, it was a classy end, but what happened to the remains was not. I had never heard this part or read it and I'm glad I did because it gives yet another angle on Cicero.

So I'm going to say, based on (as Camicat says) something I see coming up (I really don't think Livy is clear here) that he leaned or jutted out from the litter and stuck out his neck without a motion. His head was cut off.

So now we move on because that was not all?

Nec satis stolidae crudelitati militum fuit.

The soldiers apparently were not satisfied with just cutting off the head so they...

Manus quoque, scripsisse in Antonium aliquid exprobantes, praeciderunt.

Now these two sentences are complete in themselves, want to give them a shot?

I have been reading R.H. Barrow's work on the Romans and came across some of his thoughts on the Latin language that are relevant in our translations. He writes," Latin sees things in concrete form; it deals in pictures rather than in abstractions and it is careful of the order in which it presents its pictures to the hearer.The Latin sentence regularly adopts the order; subject, object, verb."

Emphasis on the picture is quite evident, I think, in Livy's description of the death of Cicero. There is nothing abstract in the discussion. It is all actuality.

"Not satisfied, the cruel soliders also cut the hands off."

I know that isn't exactly as it should be (word for word) but I am getting that thought.

Hope to see it done properly.

Cicero had told the servants to calmly wait for what he realized was inevitable. It would have been more likely for him to stay in the litter, stoic and unmoving, merely offering his head to the murderer. What a barbaric (and probably agonizingly slow) method of killing a man! No wonder the French invented the guillotine to speed the process... Grrrr

nec may be worth a linguistic hint, as well as the ending - que.

Ginny, Litterally: <<The head was cut off to the one sticking it out from the litter and offering an unmoved neck. Nor was this enough for the stupid cruelty of the soldiers; they cut off even his hands, reproaching him that he had written something against Antonius. Thus his head was brought to Antonius and by his order (the head) was placed between the two hands in a human form>>. This was a bit difficult but challenging. I think that "prominenti and praebenti" are Dative of possession, meaning the head of the one sticking it out and offering it. Most difficult for me was "in rostris" which I think means here 'in the form of a human face or a human appearance of a head and arms'. Tricky also (at least for me) was "in Antonium"; realizing after some thought that 'in' can also mean 'against'. Finally I wonder who this Antonius was. I don't think that I have ever heard of such a creature. Camicat

Hi, I got hung up on exprobantes which I think is a present active participle but I couldn't figure out whether it modified manus or the subject of praeciderunt. I opted for it modifying the "they" in the verb so here's my version(this really stretches the mental tendons or something)- Nor was it enough for the stupid cruelty of the soldiers also they mutilated the hands condemning what they have written against Anthony.

GINNY, On further reflection on the expression 'in rostris'- that it is plural, therefore has the meaning of 'a platform in the forum'. This would make sense with the more comprehensible meaning that that the severed head between the severed hands of Cicero was placed on display in the forum rather than my previous interpretation which would require a singular noun (rostro). Camicat

Good work , Everybody, Justin I do want to hear more about that book! Tudy, doesn't it make those old brain cells squeak, it's a riot and I'm really enjoying it. Camicat I am sitting in a hotel lobby near the front door freezing to death ahahah with a billion screaming kids, have come to Charlotte NC for the weekend and my laptop simply refuses to work in the room, we've tried everything, so I'm going to be hors de combat till Sunday afternoon, I'm saying all that so you all can take some time to examine as Camicat just did the constructions and won't wonder where I am. My understanding, without any books here to aid me, is that Cicero's head and hands were nailed on the Rostrum in the Roman Forum, which itself was named for the prows of enemy ships (didn't they used to bring THEM there too?) and from which they gave speeches. I do know that somebody stuck a long needle or pin through his tongue, but I can't remember who, his tongue is what got him in so much trouble (and gave him so much fame)...back Sunday, does anybody have questions on the grammar or any translation, I think you all are doing a super job. I understood the person referred to, to be Antony ?

ginny

Not cruel enough for the stolid soldier, they lopped the hands also, condemning that which had written against Antony.

Hello Dear Little Latin Book Club, I've missed you, and am glad to finally be back, thank you Prancer, Tudy, Camicat, Traude and Justin for those wonderful efforts. This was a toughie, too, I can't imagine why I thought Livy was so easy! Hahahaha

OK here, (gosh just LOOK in that heading at how much you have translated tho, it's quite impressive.) And so are your efforts, we have a ton of requests for the Latin 101 in the Fall, people see you doing such a great job and want to learn, too! This is great.

I learned yesterday that they're filiming a huge new series (I learned this in the Story of Civilization) in Rome for BBC and HBO, it's 12 parts this fall on Ancient Rome and will focus on Caesar, (just in time for our Gallic Wars) and the set is at that famous studio where Mel Gibson shot The Passion of the Christ, and they have built an entire reproduction of the city of Rome with colored columns and all and I'm on FIRE to go see it when I am in Rome, wish me luck. If I can get in I will bring YOU all some super photos. I saw them filming Vanity Fair at Hampton Court in England last summer, and that was fascinating, I hope to get to see the set.

Also don't forget our discussion of Pompeii in July, and the movie TROY coming out soon, it's in theaters now as a trailer and The Iliad and Achilles in Vietnam this fall, sounds like the classics are really making a comeback and we're right in the thick of it here on SeniorNet.

Now !

Nec satis stolidae crudelitati militum fuit.
And not enough were the soldiers in their stupid cruelty.

Manus quoque, scripsisse in Antonium

The hands also which against Antony

aliquid exprobantes, praeciderunt.
...something (had written) they, cursing them, cut them off.

I agree with you Tudy that the esprobantes refers to the soldiers.

So we have something like The soldiers were not satisfied enough in their stupid cruelty. They also cut off the hands which had written something against Antony, cursing them.

I hope that was not as unpleasant as it sounds!!!

Ok now here's another toughie, take it in order, phrase by phrase: Ita relatum caput
ad Antonium,
iussuque eius
inter duas manus
in Rostris positum,
ubi ille consul,
ubi saepe consularis,
ubi eo ipso anno
adversus Antonium
quanta numquam
humana vox
cum admiratione eloquentiae
auditus fuerat.

Now THAT one is a killer, don't flop all over it, take it as it's divided, in order, and see these notes that Wheelock provides?

positum: positum est

consularis- -is, ex-consul

adversus: preposition with Accusative: against

quanta…vox (fuerat) how great no voice had been (greater than any voice had ever been)…Now THERE is a challenge, what do you find? Hahahaha love it!

even if it IS a sad subject, there's more heroics coming!

ginny

The Latin language developed over time. There is a preliterary period ranging down to about 240 BCE in which inscriptions provide some idea of what the language contained.

A period described as archaic includes some early writers. Plautus, Naevius, Ennius, and Terence provide comedies, satires, and tragedies in this period. It is charcterized by simple diction.

Cicero introduces the Latin of the Golden Age and he himself expands the quality and precision of the language. The Golden age lasts till the death of Augustus. Catullus, Caesar, Lucretius, Sallust, Virgil, Horace, Propertius, Ovid and Livy all provide us with examples of this stage in the Language.

A period described as the Silver Latinity describes the Latin of those writers who lived from the death of Augustus in 14 CE to the death of Marcus Aurelius in 180 CE. The silver period is characterized by the introduction of idioms and colloquial language. Lucan, Seneca, the Pliny's, Martial, Quintillian, Tacitus, Juvenal, Suetonius, Minucius Felix, and Apuleius, provide examples of the language.

A period of decline sets in after Marcus Aurelius and ranges down to the close of literary activity in the sixth century.There are radical alteration in the language during this period. The conversational idiom of the lower strata of society enters the language and in the remote provinces the language suffers from the incorporation of local peculiarities. Tertullian, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, Prudentius, Claudian, and Boethius provide literature in this period.

After the sixth century Latin divides into two entirely different streams. A literary language is maintained in the courts, in the Church and among scholars. Latin is no longer the language of people in general. The other stream is the colloquial idiom of the common people which developed ultimately in the provinces into the modern Romance idioms. These are Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Provencal, and Romance.

I have paraphrased and shortened material described by Charles Bennett from Cornell in 1895. Published by Allyn and Bacon.

I thought it is interesting stuff and you might like to share it with me.

GINNY, .....when he as the (present) consul, when he often as consul, when he in this very year(as a consul) had been heard to speak against Anthony with an admiration of eloquence that no human voice ever had. Camicat

Before the Easter bunny gets here I want to take a try too at that sentence we have now - Thus the head brought back to Anthony and placed by his order between 2 hands on the deck where that consul,where often the exconsul,where in that very year against Anthony as great a human voice had never been heared with admiration for eloquence.

I'm reading a book for a local book club now called Pompeii so I'm really getting my 'Roman fix'

Thus the head is placed, by Antony's order, between the two hands on the speaker's platform in the Forum where that consul, often as ex-consul, had been heard in a voice of great elequence and admiration against Antony.

HAPPY EASTER MORNING TO ALL !

OMNIBUS IN HOC FORO, FELIX PASCHA! Camicat

Here is my reconstruction.

"Ita" = in this way, manner is basically a filler word, I believe.

The "ubi" is repeated three times for greater oratorial emphasis, one presumes.

"consularis" may also be translated as "former consul".

"ubi eo ipso anno" = where in this very same year.

"numquam" = never

"auditus fuerat = was heard

I submit that "quanta numquam humana vox cum admiratione eloquentiae auditus fuerat" may require a "free" translation.

I really like the relaxed pace of this discussion, Latin Without Pressure (it's enough pressure to stare at the words and realize how much you've forgotten, no? hahahaah) I like the relaxed scene here and how lovely to have the Easter Greetings, thank you Prancer and Camicat!

Justin thank you for that report of your reading, and Tudy, I'm leading Pompeii in July here, Pompeii and we'd love to have you (we hope to have all of YOU) and to hear what all your book group (we call them F2F book clubs, Face to Face, it's the title of a book about that same thing) and we'd really love you to participate in one of ours and see what the difference is to you?

Today let's look at these new sentences, you've done a brave stab at them, that ubi ubi ubi jumped right out at me, too, Traude, and scared me hahahaha. You are worried it means SOMETHING, you, at this stage in life can't recall, yet you don't want to miss a beat, so that's enough pressure for anybody, ahahahaha

Let's have a look:

Ok going back a bit, kind of like a cricket bowler gets a running start:

Manus quoque, scripsisse in Antonium aliquid exprobantes, praeciderunt.

They cut off the hands, also, railing against them which had written attacks on Antony.

Ita relatum caput ad Antonium,

The head was taken back to Antony

iussuque eius inter duas manus in Rostris positum,

and on his order, placed between the two hands on the Rostrum

ubi ille consul,

where Cicero, as consul,

ubi saepe consularis,

and often as ex-consul

ubi eo ipso anno adversus Antonium

where (the Rostrum) in that very year attacking Antony

quanta numquam humana vox

how great no human voice (had been: fuerat)

cum admiratione eloquentiae auditus

with admiration for his eloquence had been heard.

TOUGH STUFF!!!

So we have something vaguely like, The head was taken back to Antony, and on his orders, placed between the two hands on the Rostrum, where Cicero as consul, and often as ex-consul, and in that same year, attacked Antony, with such admiration for his eloquence as had never been heard.

I'm proud of that buzzard! Hahahaha

That's a HARD ONE!

I do love a puzzle.

Now are there any constructions there you are worrying about?

What do we see cum admiratione as? What case do we think that might be and what use?

Wheelock is mum on the constructions here, only offering that eloquentiae is the Objective Genitive. OK looked that one up again, don't see it in Dr. Grote above, so here it is from Wheelock (are we wading in high cotton here? Hahaahah)

The Objective Genitive depends on a noun of verbal meaning and is used as the object of the verbal idea. It is sometimes translated by for EX:

Amor laudis (love of praise: =amat laudem…he loves praise, etc….) metus mortis (fear of death) spes salutis (hope of safety)

SO! Now we know!

I looked up ubi…ubi… and Cassells says Livy uses it repeated to mean "wherever" when it occurs in pairs, but I really think Traude is right and it's merely an intensive, and THREE of them merely is Livy's way of saying HEY, (Livy, you recall, was a big fan of Cicero's) this same Rostrum in the Forum in Rome where they gave all their official speeches, where they nailed UP the prows (rostra) of captured ships (did they consider Cicero a capture?) WHERE Cicero had spoken as consul their highest elected office, AND WHERE as ex-consul, sort of a statesmen emeritus, AND where in that very year he had spoken out, that's the place!!

I think he is making a fine point there of emphasis.

A neat point is made by Lewis and Short who go, of course, into tiny miniscule and exhaustive detail on ubi, that sometimes ubi…ubi is written ubiubi, I had never seen that!!!

And when that happens it means "wherever or wheresoever," that's interesting but here the THREE repeats seem only for emphasis.

OK are there any other questions we might tackle together? I think one thing that is also helping me is an ancient tattered grammar from 1939 I got at a yard sale, if you're ever around and see any of these old Latin Grammars, you can often have them for 30 cents, and those old Latinists REALLY knew their grammar, it's money well spent!

OK today let's move on, Livy in the next paragraph is about to show us Cicero's incredible courage and defiance and even tho it extends our reading a bit, I think we want to see it, too.

So here we move forward first with the reactions of the Roman people (who must have been pretty unnerved at this point), imagine.... you've had a "Republic" with a very strong head, (Caesar) he's been assassinated, chaos has reigned, the principles are literally waging war on each other, which side, one wonders, should one support? It might be a matter of life and death, and now the 2nd Triumvirate, Antony, Lepidus (who learned fast to get out of the way) and Octavian (Augustus) are making the famous Proscriptions , as Shakespeare so eloquently said, "Look, with a spot I damn him," and thus his whole family, his lands, his/their possessions and everything else, bounty hunters, it was like the Mafia turned loose!

So we want now just this as the lines that come after it do not refer to it:

Vix

attollentes prae lacrimis oculos,

homines intueri

trucidata membra eius

poterant.

Wheelock offers these hints:

attollo,- ere, raise, lift

intueor, -eri, -tuitus sum…look at

membrum, -i, member (of the body), limb

What do you make of this today??

(And I really do need to add this, that in our own day and time, we can unfortunately suddenly relate to this, even as enlightened as WE are, this type of thing DID happen, and we are seeing it today, so everything old is new again, perhaps?)

GINNY, Re:cum admiratione eloquentiae. I think that it is an Ablative of manner. Camicat

I could not find verb for tracidata so I made it up and I found in my dictionary that prae takes ablative with lacrimis I guess so here's what I thought- Scarcely raising their eyes before tears men could look at his dragged up bones. Anyway, they're some kind of bones. Reminds me of the 'gaper'delay on our fast speed roads when there's been an accident.

GINNY, <<VIX ATTOLLENTES PRAE LACRIMIS OCULOS, HOMINES INTUERI TRUCIDATA MEMBRA EIUS POTERANT>> Raising with effort their tearful eyes , the people were able to gaze at the members of his body cut to pieces. Camicat

When men look at the parts of his slaughtered body, they raise the eyes with difficulty before the tears appear.

Men raise the eyes with difficulty before the tears appear when they look at the parts of his dismembered body.

vix, adv. = barely (able to), with difficulty

trucidata from the verb trucido = to slaughter

trucidata membra eius = his chopped off limbs

homines = the subject of the sentence, the men

intueri poterant = the predicate

intueri v. = to look at, as GINNY said, or in a deeper sense to behold.

poterant from the inf. posse, v. = to be able to. Translated as "can" when used as an auxiliary verb.

prae lacrimis = before tears; on the verge of tears (not actually crying).

The premise : The onlookers, probably all battle-hardened men, were moved to tears by the atrocity they had just witnessed, i.e. not only the slaying of a man but the mutilation of his body.

Here is my suggested English translation-

With barely raised tear-filled eyes, the men could see (or beheld) his severed limbs.

I like Justin's rendition of "dismembered body".

GINNY, Where have you been? I miss you. Did you quit on us? Or am I using the wrong Senior Net? Camicat

Sorry!! I have missed you all, too!

NO NONO NEVER would I leave our Latin endeavour here, as Claudia said, it's the "jewel," to me, no I was JUST sitting here reading Plutarch on Cicero's head and typing madly away thinking that if we did a Survey HERE like I just did in the now concluded Godot (so I have more time now) the Discussion Leader would get an F------!! hahaahahah

NO I'm here!!! (You're ALWAYS in the right place, Camicat, when you're on SeniorNet!!)

We have also completed the Latin 101: a Course for Beginners beautifully mounted by Jane and ready to start registration for the course September 1, (still invisible as yet) and the new Pompeii discussion up for July 1, but tempus has fugit hahaaha and I have SO gotten behind here

Hang on a mo!! (I'm baaaaack!)

It's funny I think about this discussion all the time, and am so glad to be back.

Now our schedule will be as follows, I leave on May 12 and will not be back till June 14 but AM going to Rome if there's something you'd like a photo of (AND Pompeii) so we will go on hiatus here until at least July. In July we can see where we are and (am leading Pompeii in July, do come on over) where we want to begin back because on September 15, nobody forget, we launch into our Illustrated Caesar, and I've been reading it and it's delightful, I have a million questions on YOUR interpretations of the pictures alone, they do challenge the scholar!

Ok, we're about to read about Cicero's courage, I don't think we need to get into the blood spattered Rostra, but let's see what Plutarch says about what happened when Antony was presented the head and hands of Cicero:

When these members of Cicero were brought to Rome, Antony was holding an assembly for the choice of public officers: and when he heard it, and saw them, he cried out, "Now let there be an end of our proscriptions."

He commanded his head and hands to be fastened up over the rostra, where the orators spoke; a sight which the Roman people shuddered to behold, and they believe they saw there, not the face of Cicero, but the image of Antony's own soul.

Some time afterwards, Caesar, I have been told, visiting one of his daughter's sons, found him with a book of Cicero's in his hand. The boy for fear endeavored to hide it under his gown; which, Caesar, perceiving, took it from him and turning over a great part of the book standing, gave it him again and said, "My child, this was a learned man, and a lover of his country." And immediately after he had vanquished Antony, being then consul, he made Cicero's son his colleague in the office…

Supposedly it was Fulvia, according to Everitt (we must get that man in here) who pierced thru Cicero's tongue with hairpins.

I must admit, reading this now, with the weight of all these years, it seems different to me, does it to you? I thought it almost….I don't know what I thought initially, a come uppance? He was certainly rash with his open condemnation of Antony, I could not understand it. Now it seems to me to be awful, but then again, Caesar's death was not pretty either, those of you familiar with that story. That was a rough time to live in but when you consider Anwar Sadat or Gandhi maybe no powerful man is ever safe?

Oh dear, today we leave poor Cicero's final days! I did think we had the Latin for where he showed such courage, but we don't! And so we need to know now where , quo vadis, in fact, you all want to go?

The PLAN was to read some in his De Senectute, a bit more perhaps on the soul, and maybe the delights of gardening (seems apropos) and then move on to De Officiis, but let's see whither YOU want to go now??!!??

First now, here's what we had and you've ALL done a super job, I've been reading it all along and marveling at how quick and good you all are, and nodding, yes yes, that's good, yes! I like to look at Latin a little every day so I don't lose what little I AM remembering now. Hahahaha

Vix attollentes

Scarcely lifting up

prae lacrimis oculos,

their eyes through their tears

homines intueri

the men to look at

trucidata membra eius

his cut to pieces members of his body

poterant

(were able)

so we have something like what you all have said,

The men were scarcely able to lift their eyes through their tears to look on the mutilated parts of his body.

So it would appear Cicero was not unpopular with the people? I wonder if THAT'S why Antony stopped the proscriptions and if THAT'S why Cicero's son managed to escape?

OK this next section here is not what I expected, versions leave a good part out, so I'll just put it in for your enjoyment,

It seems that one Aufidiius Bassus, also, had no doubts of the spirit of Cicero: he was convinced that he had had the courage to expose and indeed to offer himself to death. He wrote, "Cicero drew aside the curtain a little, and seeing the armed men said, 'I am stopping here; approach, soldier, and if you can do this properly (because there was nothing proper about assassination, the blow of the sword should be made properly, at least)...then cut off my head.'"

So it's clear that Cicero met his end bravely.

Wheelock concludes our own selections with:

Vixit

tres et sexaginta annos...

vir magnus, acer,
memorabilis fuit,
et in cuius
laudes persequendas

Cicerone laudatore

opus fuerit.

That's a tough little buzzard, do any of you what to give that one a try? Here's what Wheelock gives as hints:

sexaginta…indeclinable adjective, sixty

memorabilis-e, remarkable, memorable

per-sequor, follow up, set forth

opus est( + Ablative) there is need of (Cicero)

fuerit (Perfect Subjunctive, potential subjunctive, there would be need of).

OK now I'm here to tell you this is tough, so if it seems difficult, just take a deep breath and start left to right, and do your best!!! (I don't know about you but I'm going to miss those hints tho I must say these last ones are more confusing than they are helpful?) hahahahaha

Gratia superis! Ginny reduxa!

It was getting a bit lonely here without you! Now we can go back to work.

I've been a lazy poster. Promise tomorrow I'll "make like an egg and get cracking!"

Or did I mean "put an egg in my shoe, and beat it!!"

Ok...a stab at this last portion.....

"Barely sixty-three years, great man, fierce, memorable fugative, extolled in virtue, there would be need to take revenge and quote Cicerone"

Please...somebody fix this! I'm not at all sure of it.

Glad you're back Ginny and I'll give the new one a try but can we go back to De Senectute or De Oficiis.It was fun trying to remind myself of my freshman year and Cicero.

"Ginnicus redux " is what I should have said. <g>

PRANCER, I've just begun to parse and have yet to put all the pieces together.

As is my wont and long custom, I began with the verbs.

There are three : 1. vixit = past tense of vivere , to live: vivo, vixit, victus.

2. fuit , and 3. fuerit are tenses of the verb esse = to be. I boldly construe "fuit" as "was" and "fuerit" as "would be".

memorabilis = memorable, but also famous according to my Latin-German dictionary. The latter may apply here, because we speak of a "famous" man and his "memorable" work.

persequendas is derived from persequor, persecutus sum .

laudatore = eulogist, panegyrist.

I'm going to track this a bit further before I hazard my translation.

P.S. Checking for typos I just saw the post immediately before mine. I can't re-read it without erasing this message. I second Tudy's request; I too would like to return to our previous Latin text.

GINNY, He lived to be sixty three years old.... and was a man who was great,energetic and memorable,and if we had to bring out his admired traits we would need a Cicero the eulogist (a eulogist like Cicero or another Cicero the eulogist). Camicat.

I too would like to return to Cicero's De Senectute or de Oficiis.

My translation will follow.

I finally tracked down laus(fem) and this is the closest I could come to human communication-He lived 63 years he was a great,bright memorable man and in setting forth whose praises there would be a need of a eulogist of Cicero. (Oh my,that sounds strange to me)

Camicat, well done and Prancer, you're as always, on the right track even tho you despaired!

Traude, thank you for those lovely sentiments, Latinists are just the best!!

Justin, Traude, and Tudy, I want to rush ahead here and please just skip this, put your own translation (where is our Tudy?) and then come back so I don't spoil your own efforts??

I am really glad this has happened so we can talk about several important things!

Behind every confident Latin scholar lurks the menace of THE passage which someday might present itself and he simply will NOT be able to translate.

Especially vulnerable are we, coming back to it after so many years, we fear perhaps we can't do it, after all, because we all ran up against some killers back in our glory days when we KNEW it all (or thought we did) haahahaha

So (and I blame myself entirely) I thought well here we are reading Cicero, perfect for reentry, so pure and so perfect, and AHA here's Livy on the Death of Cicero, oh boy let's read and find out more about that, too, Livy's normally straightforward, piece of cake. Right?

Wrong. As I gazed somewhat perplexedly at our sentence today which starts out so normally and then just evolves into a mess, I kept thinking, what? WHAT? And I kept rereading it, searching for the key, I know it's there, especially LIVY for Pete's sake, but despite Wheelock's notes, nothing made sense. NOTHING.

And I could not find any of the Suasoriae on the internet except our own truncated selection:

Vixit tres et sexaginta annos...vir magnus, acer, memorabilis fuit, et in cuius laudes persequendas Cicerone laudatore opus fuerit.

NOTE the ellipsis (…) there? Oh yeah well there's a good reason.

OFF in the pouring rain I set out, to the university library, they had the original and good HEAVENS it's totally different and Livy makes sense in the original. So here I have scanned IN the Original Suasoriae of Seneca's Livy on the Death of Cicero and have highlighted our own passage and you can see clearly how chopped up it IS!

the original to me makes so much more sense and Seneca flatly says that Livy has written an epitaph and uses the Greek word for that, as you can see, in writing our passage: Vixit tres et sexaginta annos...vir magnus, acer, memorabilis fuit, et in cuius laudes persequendas Cicerone laudatore opus fuerit.

So! Let's take a look at the passage now that we can see what really was left out and can understand it more fully.

Vixit tres et sexaginta annos
He lived three and sixty years

...vir magnus, acer, memorabilis fuit,

a man great, sharp, and memorable he was,

et in cuius
and for whom

laudes persequendas
praise accomplished or completed properly,

Cicerone laudatore

Cicero as the Praiser (one who would praise)
opus fuerit.

It would be necessary to have.

So I am seeing this as something like this?

He lived sixty three years, and he was a great man, sharp of mind and memorable, and for whom, in order to have his praises sung properly, one could have to be a Cicero as Eulogist to do it properly.

THAT'S VERY free, but I think that's what Livy is saying in 2004 Speak! Nice touch on his part, very modest, I would say over the last 2000 years he did a pretty good job, after all?

Since Dr. Wheelock has identified this subjunctive as "Potential, " (and if you want to be frightened, look at this definition of Potential Subjunctive from 1939, hahaahah

(Baker and Inglis):

The potential subjunctive is used to indicate that an action is conceived as possible and has various uses….The potential subjunctive is used in clauses that are apodoses of ideal or unreal conditional sentences whose protases are to be supplied.

And he's right, you can see the subjunctive conditions in the original but not in the excerpt we were given, isn't that fascinating?!?

Isn't that LOVELY?

The next time you're not getting any respect, just haul that baby out! Hhahahah

AND in answer to "what the heck is an apodosis?

Conditional sentences are complex sentences. The subordinate clause is called the protasis and contains the condition; the main clause is called the apodosis and contains the conclusion.

I tell you what, I just absolutely LOVE this?

Even tho it gave some of us angina, hahaah including me, I am glad we took this detour!

Don't you feel you know more now about his last days and also won't you be glad to get back to his shining prose?!?

We did want to do De Officiis, too, let's go back and do about a week more of De Senectute and then move right on to De Officiis, we won't have time this go round for the life of the soul after death or the things that hamper old age, (I came across a hilarious thing by Cicero about the acquisitiveness of old age, and he was the first to say the more luggage on a trip the worse it is. Hahahaahah

OK let's spend the next week ONLY on Cicero and his love for the outdoors, his farm and the delights of farming? From De Senectute, let's start with this and then next Monday off we go into De Officiis? How does that sound, we'll get a little of it all!!

All right here's our new passage, we have no notes from Dr. Wheelock so will have to do the best we can?

Ok Cicero here starts out by saying that there's no life like that of the farmer, he's listed all the benefits before this, and the noble Romans who came from farms, and now he's going to express his own opinion and he's listing 4 different benefits that farming brings to civilization, let's see how many of them we can figure out!!

Let's just start with the bolded area for the next time?

Mea quidem sententia
haud scio an

nulla beatior possit esse,
neque solum officio,
(quod hominum generi universo
cultura agrorum est salutaris),

sed et delectatione,
quam dixi,
et saturitate copiaque rerum omnium,
quae ad victum hominum,
ad cultum etiam deorum
pertinent,
ut, quoniam haec quidem desiderant,
in gratiam iam
cum voluptate redeamus.

haud: an emphatic negative, used with certain single words not, not at all, by no means ..."haud scio an…" (Cicero's particular phrasing), "I think that perhaps…"

OK I miss Dr. Wheelock already, hahaha let's see what we can make of Cicero's extolling of the life of a farmer (I agree with him hahaahah) and not only in the spring!

Fool thing, repeated itself 3 times while I struggled to get it edited and HO TUDY by cracky, LOOKIT you!! WELL DONE I SAY, and that's plenty of human communication haahahah you are SO funny, laudes flummoxed me, too!

Sure looks like something else, doesn't it? Gave me a headache ahahah ESPECIALLY with that doggone Potential Subjunctive, see my last post, not the three early ones, sheesh.

Taking them out, am late to cello as we speak!

For the sake of accuracy may I belatedly correct the typo "laudatore" in my # 365. The word should have been laudator, -oris,,n., nominative case.

We have speedily conquered the last phrase. One can hear the somber resonant voice of the eulogist in the first part, describing the attributes of a great man. In the second part the tone changes but its meaning is clear.

In our literal renditions we have not specifically accounted for "OPUS fuerit", and I'd like to accord the two words their literal due as I construe it:

and (et ) it would be (fuerit) the task (opus ) of a Ciceronian eulogist (Cicerone laudatore) to sing his praises (cuius laudes persequendas).

GINNY, where in the linked Latin text from De officiis in the header can we find the new phrase(s)?

Delectatio incomparabilis !

Oh I LIKE that Traude!! I like the translation of the word opus there as work, good job@

The farming thing is from De Senectute.

I was in haste to get to cello and now we have storms hopefully I can futz with the heading a bit more tomorrow now that we have the new work before us!

Perhaps, I should work on this one a little longer but my initial translation is as follows:

Indeed, in my opinion, I know no one to be more useful than a landowner because he (the farmer) brings life to everyone by tilling the land which is bountiful.

Ginny, Re: <<Mea quidem sententia haud scio an nulla beatior possit esse,neque solum officio quod hominum generi universo cultura agrorum est salutaris.........>> My translation: Indeed, in my opinion, I don't know whether there can be anything more satisfying than farming, not only in the service that it provides(salutaris) to the whole human race but in its pleasure.......>>. Camicat. This could have been tricky but the remaining part of the sentence hopefully clarified it for me. Justin,I like the perceptiveness of your translation and also that of the other posters. It makes me realize that in any form of verbal communication we often perceive an expected meaning. Ginny, what about the previous translation? Did we decide what the end was, i.e. Cicerone laudatore? I realize you must be real busy now preparing for your Roman holiday and have little time.

Camicat, oh yes, you MISSED my magnum opus on it? hahaah Here it is apologia: Post 369 hahaahah NO listen, I think a LOT of us are missing some posts, I've missed two!!

Here's the best hint I know because the software is occasionally NOT showing new posts (do you all Subscribe to get here?)

Anyway, if you're wondering why somebody has not responded (other than their normal lapses) just look up in the upper right hand corner of the page (do you see it? MAC and Webtv people do not?) and look for a teal colored box with the words

Enlarge Text

Shrink Text

Print Page

Help

and if you click on Print Page you will SEE all the recent posts, not just what your own browser wants to show you today!

Actually Camicat and Everybody, that last bit provided a reall EUREKA moment for me and I'm not over it YET, have been going around burbling over it for days, potential subjunctive, rare use of future perfect subjunctive, difference in Future Less Vivid Conditional Clauses and that Quote of the Year!! "The potential subjunctive is used in clauses that are apodoses of ideal or unreal conditional sentences whose protases are to be supplied."

WELL! hahahaha

My poor brain was creaking to the point I feared it would explode and to finally FIND a reference to the difference in an old grammar and anxiously turn the pages only to come up on THAT "English" sentence as explanation!! That was just the top, I laughed and laughed, what fun this all is, what a challenge!

I hate to tell you all this, but to me, that kind of AHA moment, well, other then reading your wonderful thoughts (I agree, Camicat I do like the way each person expresses the idea i his own way, you ALL are good! ) it's about as good as it gets online, for me.

Has everybody given the Happy Farmer a try? (That's the title of my new cello piece and I guarantee you there is NOT ONE Happy Farmer anywhere here) haahahha (we live on a farm).

Hokay, anybody else want to give the Happy Farmer a shot??

I'll think of you in Rome but I probably won't pack till the 11th, the night before ahahaha Now Camicat, hopefully that post will answer your question, if not, please say so??

GINNY,

I am one of the Mac people, and I have suddenly, unexpectedly lost the top part on our screen, the one you mentioned, and hence the ability to enlarge or reduce the text at will, and bring up previous posts instantly.

For a time, earlier this week, I had a problem even reaching the SN folders (all listed in AOL's "Preferences", which I believed to be equivalent to subscriptions.) The problem is not entirely solved.

But here we are about Latin, and I am offering the above merely as one explanation for my absence.

Among other things I was concerned about my daughter in California, who had oral surgery but is fine, and my own limitations, dictated by my aching back, a kind of rationing of available resources. But I'm still here, and my enthusiasm for our unparalleled (as for as I know) effort here is undiminished.

My gratitude to you all.

Salvete-I found the print page-oh happy day. and "laeta sum quod iterum Ciceronem legemus"Ginny my apologies but I had to try Here's my version of our new Cicero 'De Senectute'

My feeling I know nothing can be happier not only for the task which is the cultivation of fields for all the race of men-

Actually, I've barely begun.

nulla beatior possit esse reminded me for all the world of the song "Nothing could be finer than to be in Carolina in the mo-o-r-ning".

(Let's be serious here, Class!)

mea sententia = my opinion

We've seen quidem , adv. before. Here, in "mea quidem sententia", it assumes, as I read it, almost the role of an adjective in a strong affirmation, which is further confirmed by haud scio an .

scio = I know

nescio = I DON'T know.

Wasn't it, in fact, Cicero who (humbly) said "Scio, sed nescio" ? = "I know but I don't know = freely rendered as "I know that I know nothing".

to be continued later.

Ave et Vale!

Dear little Latin Book Club, how I hate to conclude our session for the summer. I have enjoyed so much every submission you each have made and your company here.

I hope to see you in September, specifically in the Latin Book Club's first offering September 15, the Caesar See post 149.

This will not take us much time, and should be a totally enjoyable experience, you are welcome to use that text (which should be a hoot) or any other. We can then vote on our following selection, and those of you whose De Officiis is gathering dust, please glance thru it during the meantime and make some passage recommendations for us in the winter, if you like?

It looks like some of you are still coming in with translations and I hate to rush on in, but I'm afraid I have to leave so let's look at our Happy Farmer and see what's said!

By the way our Latin 101 course offering for September 1 (see Web Courses on the very top of this page) has an astounding enrollment, and will require many sections. I can already see many people who will be joining us in the Latin Book Club here in the fall, quite a few with 3+ years of Latin and in college, who would like to just refresh in the 101, so your own pioneering spirit here has paid off, BIG time, and we do so appreciate everything you've done!

Justin and Camicat, again a wonderful translation from each of you, I declare I have cheated and read over yours before proceeding with my own and again Camicat is correct, you need the last part, which is in the heading but not the reading.

Traude thank you for letting us know where youv'e been and for some of the meanings, I have to agree with Camicat that today's reading MIGHT be just a tad tricky.

In fact, let's be real here, hahaah, this little buzzard was either (1) a killer or (2) I am so spazzed out about my trip the day after tomorrow I can't think, but here is the best I can do, I don't mind admitting I've had quite a struggle with it and have had to go back to the original copy to see how it's broken up, here's what I can figure out literally: what do you think??

Mea quidem sententia haud scio an nulla beatior possit esse,

Indeed it is my thought that I know that no person (persona understood with nulla) is able to be more blessed (than the farmer)

neque solum officio

and not only for the duty

quod hominum generi universo cultura agrorum est salutaris

which to the entire race of men the cultivation of fields is of benefit

sed et delectatione,

but also both for the delight

quam dixi,

which I have said,

et saturitate copiaque rerum omnium

and the abundance and plenty of all things

quae ad victum hominum

which for the nourishment of men

ad cultum etiam deorum pertinent

and even to the worship of the gods pertain

ut,

that (I have said this so that)

quoniam haec quidem desiderant

since there are certain people who desire these things,

in gratiam iam cum voluptate redeamus.

gratefully now we may go back (to this subject) with pleasure.

So roughly, here's a free translation, when you combine it with the literal one above we may be able to see my meaning, my mind is gone, I'd say,

Indeed it is my feeling that no life can be more blessed than that of the farmer, not only for the duty he performs, which is of benefit to the entire race of men, in his cultivation of the fields; but also because of its delight, as I have said, and the production of the abundance and plenty of all things which pertain to the nurture of men, even to the worship of the gods. I have said this, so that since there are certain people who desire these things, in gratitude now let us with great pleasure return (to the subject of the delights of agrarian life).

I love that last sentence, it seems like he's saying oh, let's just drown in this subject voluptuously. Love it.

All right! Now somebody show us the constructions, hahahaa there's one in there driving me crazy. What do you think?

I look forward to seeing you all in September and have just tremendously enjoyed having to THINK about Latin again, it's been so fun. Have a wonderful summer, and I hope to "See You in September!"

Valete,

ginnicus 3F, (4th , feminine, and frazzled) hahahaha

The Latin Book Club is now Read Only (not accepting new posts) and is on hiatus until September 15, when we will begin with Caesar. We hope to see you then!

For more details, see Post 149