Latin Book Club II ~ C. Julius Caesar: De bello Gallico
patwest
August 1, 2004 - 02:24 pm

CAESAR'S GALLIC WAR: Book I



CAESAR!

Welcome to our second installment of the Latin Book Club!!

Caesar is available ONLINE: Caesar on the Perseus Project

The Latin Library

Background on the First Book: The Helvetian War, by the Perseus Project

Dr. Grote's Comprehensive Companion to Wheelock's Latin .

Other sources are:
  • Caesar: Gallic War, Volume 1 (Loeb Classical Library)

  • Caesar: De Bello Gallico: ISBN number: 0862921775.


  • Our Current Selecton:




    Book I, chapter 1, as found here in The Latin Library


    Our Text so far


  • [5] Post eius mortem nihilo minus Helvetii id quod constituerant facere conantur, ut e finibus suis exeant. Ubi iam se ad eam rem paratos esse arbitrati sunt, oppida sua omnia, numero ad duodecim, vicos ad quadringentos, reliqua privata aedificia incendunt; frumentum omne, praeter quod secum portaturi erant, comburunt, ut domum reditionis spe sublata paratiores ad omnia pericula subeunda essent; trium mensum molita cibaria sibi quemque domo efferre iubent. Persuadent Rauracis et Tulingis et Latobrigis finitimis, uti eodem usi consilio oppidis suis vicisque exustis una cum iis proficiscantur, Boiosque, qui trans Rhenum incoluerant et in agrum Noricum transierant Noreiamque oppugnabant, receptos ad se socios sibi adsciscunt.

    [6] Erant omnino itinera duo, quibus itineribus domo exire possent: unum per Sequanos, angustum et difficile, inter montem Iuram et flumen Rhodanum, vix qua singuli carri ducerentur, mons autem altissimus impendebat, ut facile perpauci prohibere possent; alterum per provinciam nostram, multo facilius atque expeditius, propterea quod inter fines Helvetiorum et Allobrogum, qui nuper pacati erant, Rhodanus fluit isque non nullis locis vado transitur. Extremum oppidum Allobrogum est proximumque Helvetiorum finibus Genava. Ex eo oppido pons ad Helvetios pertinet. Allobrogibus sese vel persuasuros, quod nondum bono animo in populum Romanum viderentur, existimabant vel vi coacturos ut per suos fines eos ire paterentur. Omnibus rebus ad profectionem comparatis diem dicunt, qua die ad ripam Rhodani omnes conveniant. Is dies erat a. d. V. Kal. Apr. L. Pisone, A. Gabinio consulibus.


    QUAESTIONES:
  • 1. What use is vado?

  • 2. What type of clause is qua omnes conveniant?

  • 3. Trium mensium is what Genitive?

  • 4. Can you explain how the Romans dated time? What is a Kalends?

  • 5. What is one instance of the Gerundive denoting Purpose in our passages for this reading?

  • 6. Why do you suppose the Helvetians made the decision they did with Orgetorix dead?


    Questions from a 1939 Latin II Text:

  • 7. Was Rome, as the possessor of a superior culture, justified in imposing their civilization upon the primitive Gauls?

  • 8. What would have been the probable effect upon the history of western Europe if the Germans had conquered Gaul?

  • 9.How can we compare the culture and civilization of the Romans at the time of Cicero and Caesar with that of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls? IS there any comparison? What is the definition OF "civilization?"

  • Previous Questions

    Caesar's Passage



    Discussion Leader: ginny


    B&N Bookstore | Books Main Page | Suggest a Book for Discussion
    We sometimes excerpt quotes from discussions to display on pages on SeniorNet's site or in print documents.
    If you do NOT wish your words quoted, pleaseContact Ginny

    Ginny
    August 1, 2004 - 06:24 pm
    Salve, dear Latin Book Club, how was your summer? I had a lovely trip to Ostia Antica, it was about 9000 degrees in the shade but I have much to tell anyway haahahah

    I could make a fortune there in concessions or even one Pepsi machine, but I digress!

    While in Oxford, thinking of you all, I bought several interesting books on seige works of the Roman army of the times and can't wait to share some of things with you, remember the onager and the ballista? (Unfortunately you'll have to keep remembering them, my books cover wall seiges haahah who KNEW they were so specific!?!)

    My favorite is the testudo, shown on, is it Trajan's column, the overlapping shields that made the soldiers look like turtles?

    I discovered Roman Epigraphy at the Museo Therme in Rome and that most everything else I wanted to see was closed! In fact the Ara Pacis is completely shielded by boards, they must be close to the grand opening, how I am excited about seeing that, gosh it's been closed for YEARS, 2005 will be the 5th year, that I've been looking to try to see it, I've NEVER gotten close to it!

    They have added new boat tours down the Tiber, this year but their Archeobus unfortunately was hors de combat, so that was a disappointment.

    So that's my "report" and I hope to see you all back here and ready to read the great man himself starting September 15, I just today noticed the little caveat of "scriptores antiqui Romani imaginibus ornati," and depending on HOW ornati they get we may seque off to the original, nothing beats Caesar!

    I think this presentation in this book will be a painless way to revisit Caesar again and if you want to do Vercingetorix, OR Britain when we get thru, we certainly can, we'll be guided by what you all would like to do and enjoy next! I think this is a unique offering that I hope you will enjoy.

    So please sign in, tell us what you've been doing with yourself this summer, and how you want to take this book: how fast, or whatnot!

    As you may have heard, our Latin 101 course is booming with right at 200 people enrolled, and MANY of them have 4+ years of prior Latin study, so I do hope we can entice some of them to our enjoyable company here!

    Everyone reading this is MORE than welcome, we'd love to have you, SALVETE!!

    Ginny
    August 14, 2004 - 07:50 am
    We do have a lot of people now planning to join us, emailing that they will be here, so it appears this discussion does have a quorum and will be offered, so if you are wondering if you should be getting the book, the answer is YES, the discussion will move forward, as planned. I am expecting our Latin 101 classes will actually be helpful to me , too, in preparing.

    We are going to have to call upon ALL of you for background material here, for the Roman Army, their dress, their machines of war, how many in a legion, etc., etc., etc., the campaigns, we are absolutely drowning (and what better way to go?) in Latin students from, now 7 countries all over the world, and all over the USA, which makes 8 countries. This endeavor will be taking up Dorothy's, Barbara's and my time, so I will have to rely on all of you as co facilitators here, in the worst way.

    As I said above, while I was in Oxford this past May I bought several books on Caesar's army and Gallic campaigns, unfortunately as I now READ the books, the ones on siege machinery are for storming fortifications (sigh) so that's no use, we need field artillery. Sigh. But you so rarely SEE siege artillery so beautifully illustrated and outlined, I had to plump for it.

    What a thrill to revisit our man Caesar, with his wonderful repetitive Ablative Absolutes, and repetitive phrases, just love the man and what a THRILL to be able to read his own voice again, speaking directly to us over 2,000 years as fresh as if it were yesterday.

    So many I can quote from memory, without looking: quae cum ita sint Since these things are so.

    Just love the man and his style. Since this is the situation, since this is what I was presented with, here's what I did:. We might want to talk about his attitude, how it informed his own life and how it might affect our perspectives in 2004?

    And of course my favorite part in Caesar, even more than Vercingetorix: Considius, who reported "as seen that which he had not seen."

    I absolutely LOVE Caesar and I hope that you will enjoy slowly rekindling your auld acquaintance with him as well, we'll move VERY slowly, starting September 15!!

    Everyone is welcome!

    Justin
    August 14, 2004 - 02:52 pm
    Salve, Ginny: I will join you in reading "Caesar in Gaul". I'm looking forward to the pleasure and I hope many others join us.

    I see Florida has taken the wind out of Charley's sails and left you east coast folks with a tropical storm. That's nice. My daughter's place at Cape Corral is still in an unknown but uncertain condition.

    Ginny
    August 14, 2004 - 04:40 pm
    SALVE, Justin!!! and welcome back! Thank you for posting, you're the FIRST!!

    Yes we're OK here in SC. It bypassed us here in the upstate entirely, we only have 2 grape vines down from the fringes of Bonnie, but what horrible photos coming out of Florida! Almost unbelievable destruction. I do hope you have word soon on your daughter, is it her home or her as well? I hope she is OK, let us know?

    camicat
    August 15, 2004 - 09:48 am
    Salve Ginny, 'Resurrexit sicut dixit'. Welcome back! Yes indeed, I will return. My Latin has been dormantly estivating, awaiting to be awakened. Hope that our former colleagues will continue. Camicat

    Ginny
    August 15, 2004 - 11:16 am
    Salve, Camicat !!

    How pleased I am to see you again! hahhaa What a joy, where you BEEN? Yes I hope all our old friends will return and our new ones will soon sign in, it's a pleasure to do Latin again with all of you!

    Ginny
    August 16, 2004 - 03:48 pm
    HOld on hold on, Ehu! Snafu! hahahahaa despite incredible reviews:
    For those who grew up savoring the Classics Illustrated version of Caesar's Gallic Wars, this book is a leap to the next level: a lavishly and accurately drawn comic book style history(vaguely--but only--reminiscent of the best details of the Asterix series comix--). This fascinating book allows the characters to 'speak' Caesar's Latin and the reader to make the translations, which come surprisingly easy, even to the moderatley proficient. To those who know the Gallic Wars, it would certainly add a further diminsion, and for those just discovering Caesar, it would provide helpful illustrations of the peoples and the military arts of both Gallic and Roman camps.


    Book is suddenly being reported NOT on B&N and at Amazon for 45 big bucks!! There is no way that is right, we shall fan out and use some of our other sources or contact the publisher oursselves, do NOT despair, o ye seekers of Latin reading! I will follow thru here and report!

    Ginny
    August 17, 2004 - 05:51 am
    hahahaah The Publisher's website indicates a source for this book, you won't believe this, after I've looked all over every site on earth, guess who has it?

    Wal Mart!
    new for 9 bucks and change. But UNAVAILABLE!!~

    Sigh. So that leaves me to call the publisher today and these few: a 7 dollar book and one at 17 dollars and one at 22.

    You can use the old Caesar texts, too? Those of us with the illustrated can comment on the illustrations, etc., and those with the old regular Caesar the way he wrote it, (which is also in the back of this book) can translate too! Translations for everybody!!

    Meanwhile, any edition of Caesar will be fine!

    Justin
    August 19, 2004 - 10:52 pm
    My daughter's house in Coral Gables, while in the eye of the storm, remained intact. Some roof blew off allowing water to damage walls and carpets. The surge came to the three foot mark on the outside walls but did not penetrate the house. The houses on either side of hers are shambles. But hers is recoverable. She was in California at the time of the hurricane so she is fine as is her husband. Amazing luck. Today, workers pulled the carpet out and began tearing out walls. The temperature is 90 degrees and rain continues to fall. My guess is the house will not dry out for several months. There is no electricity to run fans or air conditioners. Hotels, normally priced at $40. at this time of the year are going for $200.per night.Folks need shelter.Food and water are scarce but the Red cross is in there doing its thing. There were some looters but the Guard is in there now. Jeb was lucky he had guard available. Many states are bereft. As in all disasters the sun will come out one day and all will be well again.

    Justin
    August 19, 2004 - 11:03 pm
    Sorry to hear about the illustrated. I planned to use Loeb in any case but there must be others who will be disappointed. I think it is unusual that Wall Mart has the text though unavailable. Perhaps, the buyer mistakenly assumed it to be a new comic book. Caesar, the new Superman, comes to Wall Mart just as Prince Valiant came to the comics years ago.

    Ginny
    August 20, 2004 - 05:43 am
    I really think, at this point, Justin, that there are more people frustrated and angry over not being able to find the text than finding it, so let's reverse engines here and read the ORIGINAL Caesar's Gallic Wars, one of the people planning to come in will not be able to, and I am not sure any other person HAS this book? If any of you have it I will purchase it for another purpose, so please email me.

    Let's use the original and best Caesar in his own words?!?

    I am glad to hear your daughter is OK, heavens on the damage tho. Wow on the details, what's going on with those gouging hotels!!! Shame on them!

    I bet when all is restored nobody would get near them again!

    We'll use Caesar in the original and that way we can do more, too, we can do Vercingetorix!

    Is everybody OK with this?

    Everyone is welcome!!

    Ed Zivitz
    August 22, 2004 - 03:01 pm
    Hello Ginny:

    How far do the parameters of this discussion expand?

    Is it ,for the most part,reading & translation or are social,military,and political explorations and juxtapositions a part of it?

    Ginny
    August 22, 2004 - 03:19 pm
    Hello dear Ed, how delightful to see you again!!!! (Have you noticed I am surrounded by men in here?!?) That's unusual in book discussions but we here on SeniorNet are blessed with intelligent men, suits me! hahahaha

    Ladies, are there any of you out there planning to read along, too? We're outnumbered, at this point!

    Listen, bring whatever you have to the table? If you can talk on social,military,and political explorations and juxtapositions I would be greatly beholden to you?

    I don't like to EXCLUDE anything from a reading experience, so I would really appreciate any auziliary material here, as I will be swamped in the Latin 101, and pathetically eager to hear anything, actually. I am counting on you all to co lift the burden here, we're all Comrades in Arms in this army. ahahaha

    WELCOME Ed, what did you have in mind?

    Ed Zivitz
    August 23, 2004 - 08:56 am
    I thought some discussion into the Roman Army,the tactics used,the political ambitions,both in the field and back in the Senate,and perhaps the influence of the Gallic War on future military tacticians,might be of some interest..but not to be a distraction from whatever the focus of your primary goal.

    Ginny
    August 23, 2004 - 03:49 pm
    PLEASE do, all of you!!!! I'd love it!

    ttir25
    August 24, 2004 - 04:01 pm
    Hello,

    Since I'm taking the course in Latin, why not learn something about where it derived from. No harm in that.

    ttir25

    Ginny
    August 24, 2004 - 04:54 pm
    Welcome, ttir25, I admire your spirit, our Latin students are setting the world on its ear with their enthusiasm and interest!@ You are welcome to see the great man in action and as you say, even tho Latin is new to you, you hopefully will pick up a LOT of information! I like your spirit! Welcome!

    OH and listen, don't MISS The Iliad in Ocbober? We're reading that one in English and we have the very distinguished Greek scholar Dr. Stanley Lombardo, whose book we are using, visiting with us!

    There is already a free Greek Mythology course in the heading from the University of Washington, don't miss that one, for an immersion in things ancient!

    You'll get a real background on the Greek gods and goddesses as well as important history, too (for instance Caesar was convinced he was descended from one of the characters in the Iliad) and all of Rome proudly claimed Aeneas as an ancestor!

    DrPaSan
    August 31, 2004 - 09:37 am
    Ginny, Did I subscribe for this course? Dr. Robert Santry

    Ginny
    August 31, 2004 - 12:01 pm
    I am not sure if you did, Dr. Santry, but you are certainly a welcome sight!~ This is not a course like the Latin 101, just a book club enjoying struggling with the Great Man again, and you are definitely welcome to pull up a chair and join us!

    KleoP
    July 23, 2004 - 10:14 am
    I am going to try to plow through this in the original Latin. I just started studying Latin in the Latin 101, today. I am ambitious. Ceasar was one good looking dude, so, why not? It will be my Romance novel this year.

    Are you reading the text on-line or hardcopy or what? Any ISBN? It's a little unclear from the notes so far and the heading of this board what we are reading. Note that the title is in English, but I think you are reading it in Latin. You might get more comers if you clarify with a link to the book or something--this always helps me make a decision.

    Kleo

    Ginny
    September 1, 2004 - 04:44 pm
    Those are excellent points, Kleo, I'll try to clarify.

    The text IS online, actually, I'm glad you asked that and in a week or so I'll try to get up a link, good point,

    I will also restore the Latin title of the book in the heading, but don't look it up in an online bookstore by that title or you'll get our previous choice, now discontinued and coming out in a $45 plus version?

    I'm sure it's in paperback. If you look up Caesar's Gallic Wars on Barnes & Noble, you'll find probably 300 editions, of every sort. Many people like the Loeb edition, which has the Latin on one page and the corresponding English on the other?

    This is a very common text? For instance my own copy is from 1903, so I would say , rather than indicate a particular ISBN number, like we had to do for the course? I think I will recommend just type in Caesar's Gallic Wars in any online books site, and look for an edition in Latin, (you will find scores, and they will depend on your desire to see illustrations or not, (I have a great desire for that) or to have explanatory notes (that, too) hahahaha, just be sure your volume contains Books I-IV because I think we'll want to read excerpts from more than the Helvetians.

    I actually am somewhat intrigued that so many beginning Latin students want to try Caesar, it's amazing, and it would never have occurred to me, so we will all benefit from this interesting experience!! Welcome!

    KleoP
    September 2, 2004 - 04:44 pm
    I don't konw if all of you know about MIT's Open Course Ware project. It's a great place to browse for lifelong learners. It contains the syllabi, assignments, readings and lectures variously of some 500 courses offered at MIT.

    One course that might be of interest to students in here is 21L.455 Classical Literature: The Golden Age of Augustan Rome, Fall 2004.

    The Golden Age of Augustan Rome

    A quote from the course description:

    "This class will be exploring the Golden Age of Latin Literature from an historical perspective in order to provide an intensive examination of the cultural contexts in which these monumental works of classical art were first produced. Readings will emphasize the transition from a Republican form of government to an Empire under the rule of Augustus Caesar and the diversity of responses among individual authors to the profound structural changes that Roman society was undergoing at this time. Particular attention will be devoted to the reorganization of society and the self through textuality, the changing dimensions of the public and the private, the roles of class and gender, and the relationship between art and pleasure. Writings covering a wide variety of literary genres will include the works of Caesar, Cicero, Catullus, Livy, Virgil, Horace, and Ovid, with additional readings from Cassius Dio for background.


    Kleo

    KleoP
    September 3, 2004 - 02:18 pm
    It is not so straightforward as you suggest to find this book.

    It would be useful if you could find one copy of the book that is available as a starting point and include an ISBN.

    There are not 300 editions of every sort on BN--there are about 20, mostly in English. There are almost 4000 that are mostly out of print and in English at Amazon.

    Thanks, Kleo

    Ginny
    September 3, 2004 - 03:16 pm
    Thank you Kleo for the course listing, ISN'T that a beautiful thing! Oh it makes my mouth water!!!

    I'm sorry also on the ISBN number, I also had another person want a specific text to be suggested, I'll spend some time in the morning on this and come in with some suggestions. I think the Loeb remains an excellent suggestion, and will top my list, and would make a good choice for anybody who has been out of Latin for a while, but I will present a number of them, and change the title here as well. AND find the online version!! Glad to help! Thank you for the feedback!~

    chuckssite
    September 4, 2004 - 10:17 pm
    I also am in Latin 101. From the limited discussion above, this appears to be a course where one can read the story in English or Latin (maybe Latin, then English to confirm the Latin). Do you think it is something new Latin students can handle and will it be good supplementary reading?

    Thanks.

    Chuck

    Ginny
    September 5, 2004 - 05:51 am
    That's a good question, Chuck, and I am not sure of the answer, that is, it's never been done that I'm aware of, and so I am not sure of what benefit it might be to a Latin beginner: I just don't know, but I'd like to find out.

    The text is online, and so is the translation, I hope to get some links up today. It looks like some of our readers will be providing supplementary information which should be interesting. It's hard to say at this point what benefit it might have to the beginner, but it's free: why not tune in anyway?

    This is a benefit of the internet, offline it would be unheard of for a beginner to participate in a reading of Caesar in Latin. I mean I have people with 3 prior years of Latin afraid to tackle it.

    But new students on the internet in this brave new age, are thinking well, why ever not? I can watch and maybe I can learn, or even say something or contribute to the discussion, it might be interesting to me to SEE the real thing, get the background, etc., and I think those alone might be great reasons! I don't see anything to argue with.

    I would think, if nothing else, that it would be instructive, my HOPE would be that it would NOT discourage? And it might, but then again, it might not? That would be my only caveat? But hopefully it would encourage? Everyone is certainly welcome!

    Sandra Reese
    September 5, 2004 - 09:48 am
    Ginny--Is this how I get assigned to a classroom? Thanks.

    Sandy

    Ginny
    September 5, 2004 - 10:14 am
    Email follows, Sandy but you PLEASE stay right here also!!! Sandy is also a former Latin teacher and we'll have great need of her here.

    To tell if you are SUBSCRIBED, look down on the bottom of the last post for some green buttons. If you see one that says SUBSCRIBE, hit it, click OK and then you are subscribed. If you don't see the word SUBSCRIBE, you are already subscribed and every time from every where on SeniorNet you can look on every page for the button Check Subscriptions and hit it and be brought here if there are new messages!

    Ginny
    September 5, 2004 - 01:55 pm
    Wow, the texts, as Kleo has mentioned are NOT easy to find, I am stunned, I would have thought they would be on every corner!!

    I have found two, and one of course IS the Loeb (The Loeb Classical Library) with the Latin on one page and the English facing it, they are very small hardbacks, almost fit in the palm of your hand, in Red for Latin and Green for the Greek, and they are also in any library.

    The ISBN number for the Loeb is, Caesar: The Gallic War, Volume 1 (Loeb Classical Library) ISBN: 0674990803. The other text I found is Caesar: De Bello Gallico: ISBN number: 0862921775. This one appears to be a text book, both of these books are available used at lower prices, this one has NOTHING about it whatsoever except it's a textbook, so I'd stick with the Loeb or the online text.

    Again, unfortunately, we'll have to do a bit more scouting, I did find the online Caesar at the Perseus Project, unfortunately it's so heavily annotated it's hard to read but here IT is, as well Caesar on Perseus

    Hope this helps, you really can't go wrong with the Loeb, any time.

    It's SOOO odd to me not to have Caesar texts all over the place in every store, I will look the next time I go to B&N and see if they don't have one there, I'll find out tomorrow, there should be a Caesar on every shelf!

    KleoP
    September 5, 2004 - 03:54 pm
    I asked a friend of mine who is a professor of linguistics about reading Caesar while just beginning to learn Latin. He said that since I have already studied linguistics and a Latin grammar formally (Polish!), have translated from a few languages, and pick up languages fast it might work. He told me that Caesar is usually the covered reading in a second year college Latin course, not third year. But he also said that because of the nature of Latin it will be both easier for me to start but harder for me to keep up with experienced Latin readers.

    My thought is that it will help me learn Latin, and I am willing to just drop it without any anxiety if it doesn't work. Yup, nothing to lose.

    I would love to see other beginners give it a try.

    I ordered one of the books, though. I can get the Loeb from the library so I ordered the other one.

    The Perseus Project can be irritating because it is so hard to find the actual TEXT! I am reading Livy (in English) for background and glad to have found a non-Perseus site that just has the text! The link you provided appears to be to the Perseus Caesar in English, not Latin. I will see what I can find.

    Kleo

    Ginny
    September 5, 2004 - 04:26 pm
    Kleo, when I click on that link it takes me to the Latin, did you scroll down a bit? I get only Latin, not sure what you are seeing.

    Not sure, either, where you are seeing me say Caesar is "third year Latin?" Cicero is third year high school Latin and Caesar is high school Latin II. Are you taking that from my comment above that we have people with three prior years of Latin afraid to tackle Caesar? That's the point? Somebody with three years has read Cicero, and Caesar should be a lark, but they hesitate, they are afraid, this is an invitation to them to say COME ON DOWN!!! You can do it, Caesar scares the strongest man.

    I think it will be super to have beginners here, welcome!

    Ginny
    September 5, 2004 - 04:36 pm
    Yeah I agree with this particular version of Caesar on the Perseus Project, unfortunately I was not able, despite using many screens, to find a site with .edu in it with the Caesar unannotated? And we learned in the last Latin book club not to use sites not connected with universities, their Latin is often misspelled or just flat out incorrect and we don't need that.

    I don't have time to check sources against each other, so we need, for putting in the heading, something from a reputable site, and Perseus (tho I agree it is VERY distracting but attractively divided, actually) is the best.

    KleoP
    September 5, 2004 - 05:22 pm
    Oh, my God. Ginny--that's the Latin! I thought it was just a bunch of notes as prelude to the actual reading since it was entirely in HYPERTEXT! I can't read that. It's completely useless.

    Kleo

    Ginny
    September 5, 2004 - 05:32 pm
    OK well we have a week before we start, do any of you have the time to compare this text? This is the Latin Library, and we have used them before. I don't remember their being TOO bad, do any of you have time to compare the first several paragraphs, word for word, against the Loeb or the Perseus, and let us know how far you got? We will rely on you completely, I know you all are very careful. I seem to remember some ellipsis, tho?

    This is attractive, I think??

    The Latin Library Caesar

    KleoP
    September 7, 2004 - 11:29 am
    Yes, Ginny, by looks alone this one is readable. I don't have my copy of the book, yet. When I do get it, if no one has volunteered, I will check the text. If anyone does volunteer before my book shows up, please post that you are already taking the task.

    Kleo

    epollard
    September 8, 2004 - 02:55 am
    Hi Ginny. I am in your Latin 101 class which I am enjoying very much!! I thought I might follow the discussions in this setting even though I am a neophyte in the area of speaking and understanding Latin. I have ordered the Loeb version from Amazon. I have read quite a lot regarding Roman history and have visited many archeological sites over the years. So I would like to atleast "listen" in and maybe learn a little Latin and a thing or two from those much more knowledgable than I.

    Ed

    Ginny
    September 8, 2004 - 03:36 am
    Great, Kleo, thank you, and welcome, Ed! I continue to be astonished by our beginning Latin students. Yesterday I put the opening two paragraphs of the grand old man himself, here, in my classes, so they could try their hand at pronunciation and I was flat out (those of you who KNOW Caesar won't believe this,) amazed at the reaction, they sailed right into it, one class is trying to translate him as if he were a piece of cake, I'll tell you, there's SOMETHING in this Dr. Phinney approach, and I really really like the feeling of ....confidence in translation the students have, or their lack of intimidation...I don't know the words! Those of you who are preparing to translate here, we're REALLY going to do something in our little Latin group, we may surprise the world here. I'm so glad you're enjoying it, Ed!

    Sandra Reese
    September 10, 2004 - 10:59 am
    Phinney is different from other Latin series I've seen. First impressions are that it jumps around a lot without what appears to be a "sequence." However, if it is designed to be used with older learners who don't need to re-learn their English syntax, I can see the advantages.

    Also, the world could use some pleasant surprises.

    Sandy

    Ginny
    September 10, 2004 - 02:27 pm
    Welcome, Sandy! Yes the Phinney, which is used in many high schools, is quite unique. I see a definite plan in his presentation, and a deliberate one.

    By "jumping around," are you referring to his introducing three declensions by the first two lessons? He has a reason for that, I think. I think it is a very carefully thought out book, and is deliberately designed to thwart normal Latin pedagogy. I think he has a different aim from traditional texts. The book was produced by a consortium of Latin teachers and educators, and is a bold concept. We just have to add paradigms of grammar to it, because we can't bear not to. ahahaha

    But I am amazed at the zest and glee with which the beginners are tackling Caesar when it's been introduced and the confidence they have in translating, I think perhaps there is something to it.

    It IS quite a surprise, isn't it? We considered many texts and felt it was the closest to the old Ullman Henry experience that we could find, it just needs grammatical augmentation, I'm very pleased with it so far and absolutely astonished at the proficiency and enthusiasm of the students.

    Welcome here!

    dandelion
    September 12, 2004 - 04:58 pm
    I would like to sign up for this discussion but am not sure how this is done. I am in the Latin 101 Class and am enjoying the new approach. I am ordering The Gallic War, 1, Loeb Version, and a dictionary from a relatively nearby store. Until they arrive I'll have to tough it with the Perseus Project. I don't know what is expected of study participants and am extremely intimidated. Perhaps I should focus entirely on Latin 101. dandelion

    Ginny
    September 13, 2004 - 03:46 am
    Welcome, Dandelion, do not be intimidated, I admire your spirit!! If nothing else, you will pick up, hopefully, all sorts of background material and see interesting things being done with the language. This is the language in the original about 50 years BC, and hopefully it will augment your other study!

    We have some translations coming up, once we finish with honing our brains on Caesar, which are very fun, Jason and the Argonauts, and Hercules, and both of those should be WELL within the grasp of our Cambridge students, somewhere around December, so not to feel intimidated (maybe afraid, tho. hahaha) ( Caesar scares most people).

    If nothing else you will enjoy the Ablative case, since Caesar was obsessed with it, and quite repetitive in his writings.

    I love Caesar, but a lot of people don't, a LOT of background is required which I hope our readers will supply, and which is definitely one contribution our new students can help us with. He repeats and repeats and repeats, and once you get the hang of him you're sold.

    But no one should mistake his repetition for dullness! There's a purpose in it. A brilliant man, who invented the one way street and the calendar used throughout the known world (and in Russia until the Russian Revolution: the Julian Calendar), a brilliant orator, statesman, political strategist, and general, he also wrote a handbook on grammar. The man was a genius but in this account of his Gallic Wars, he's presenting his famous, "Veni Vidi Vici, " (I came, I saw, I conquered) perspective, and in just about that style. He essentially first describes the terrain and the people, (and I must say, having come recently from Belgium, he's amazingly interesting here), what they did, how he conquered, and it's fascinating.

    All that to say Welcome!

    Ginny
    September 15, 2004 - 09:06 am
    Well a bright good morning, or is it afternoon? Hahaah Sorry to be somewhat delayed, good moring Dear littl e Latin Book Club!!!! And welcome all new members and those planning to join us!

    I'm swamped putting up the lessons in the Latin 101, and since THEY are parsing I think it would add to our enjoyment, also, here to do the same. I love parsing, I am not sure how you all feel about it?

    So let's try to get the most out of this experience: we'll translate, parse (and enjoy the special uses we find) and give a lot of background material as needed, (I hope you will, anyway)!

    So welcome on board, I have missed you and am very glad to be doing this again!

    Let's take for our first selection the first two paragraphs of Book I, chapter 1, as found here in The Latin Library

    We have not cross checked this, so if you see anything suspicious, we'll comment on it as we go.


  • [1] Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres,

    quarum unam incolunt Belgae,

    aliam Aquitani,

    tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur.


    Hi omnes

    lingua, institutis, legibus

    inter se differunt.


    Gallos


    ab Aquitanis Garumna flumen,

    a Belgis Matrona et Sequana

    dividit.


    Horum omnium

    fortissimi sunt Belgae,

    propterea quod

    a cultu atque humanitate provinciae

    ongissime absunt,

    minimeque ad eos

    mercatores saepe commeant

    atque ea quae ad effeminandos animos pertinent

    important,


    proximique sunt Germanis,

    qui trans Rhenum incolunt,

    quibuscum continenter

    bellum gerunt.


    OK let's stop here and talk about what we have there?

    For those of you new, we're following our previouis custom of breaking the Latin down into phrases which go together. We're reading from left to right, and we've separated out the clauses and phrases which relate to each other to discuss.

    The Romans wrote in periodic style. They expected you to hang on breathlessly till you got to the end, not hop around like some demented rabbit looking for the verb and the subject and that's what we'll do, also…you can almost hear them holding out the words with a questioning tone.

    All right, let's approach this, this year, a tad differently.

    First off, let's look carefully at these opening remarks and will some of you might like to take a stab at these questions?


  • 1. Why is Caesar writing this? What is he trying to do here, what was he DOING in Gaul, what's the background?

  • 2. What modern countries correspond to the places named here? What IS Gaul today? What are the modern Garumna, Matrona, and Sequana? Can you visualize what he's outlining on a map? Can you FIND on google a map of this area as he knew it?

  • 3. Who are the Helvetians today? What remnant of Roman times can be found in that country?

  • 4. What is unusual about the position of omnis?

    What does the position of omnis mean in this sentence?

  • 5. What word should be understood with the words unam, aliam and tertiam?

  • 6. What is the antecedent of qui?

  • 7. What is meant by the use of the term Galli? To whom does it refer? (tricky?)

  • 8. Is Caesar calling everybody but the Belgians "girly men?" hahahaah

  • 9. What is the provinciae spoken of?

  • 10. Who are the Aquitanians?

  • 11. What Ablative are lingua, institutis and legibus?

  • 12. What is a modern derivative of bellum gerunt?



  • Now THERE is a roaring start, (is it TOO roaring? Hahahaha it's surely different)…

    What do you make of any or all of this? How do you translate these first paragraphs? Let's examine this delightedly together!!

    It's SOOO good to be reading Caesar again!
  • Justin
    September 15, 2004 - 01:58 pm
    Let's translate some of this material first then move on to the questions.

    All of Gaul is divided into three parts, the Belgians reside in one part, the Acquitains in another, a third who name themselves Celt in our Gaul.

    Incolunt is third person plural, third conjugation. Omnis , I think, means "all" but "completely" or "totally" fit also but require an adverb. Ipsorum is a relative pronoun, genitive case, plural. Can it be reflexive? ie; Name themselves ...

    Why did he choose quarum and not quorum?

    Ginny
    September 15, 2004 - 02:58 pm
    Ah, Justin, I am so glad to be reconvening here again and hahaha an EXCELLENT suggestion, let's do translate SOMETHING first!! I need to also put the Latin teacher back in the box! hahahaha I declare this experience is bringing out a monster in me, feel free to slap the moster down at all times!! hhahaha Who KNEW a monster was lurking here?


    OK Justin has given his take on the lines down to nostra Galli appellantur. and that's a great place to start, I'd like to go slowly through this initially.

    And you are asking some really good questions, let's see what the others think when they get here? Your quorum or quarum wants to depend on the antecedent, I think?

    Why DO we suppose he used quarum?

    (I intended that heading to last a week now, so don't anybody panic!) ahhaahah

    Something for us all to chew on, and Justin has raised some great issues too, let's DISCUSS!

    I especially like your question on ipsorum. I am thinking you want Intensive pronoun there rather then relative, but your question shows you are actually leaning in a super direction there: Can it be reflexive? ie; Name themselves ... What do the rest of you think about this surprisingly complicated issue so soon here in the opening lines? ?

    Does anybody recognize a fairly rare use of the Ablative in these first sentences Justin just did?

    moxiect
    September 15, 2004 - 07:01 pm


    Hi Ginny!

    Sorry, I had to drop out during our last session, but circumstances beyond my control prevailed.

    Feels good to be back. Will do my translation upon returning from my Hi-School 50th Reunion.

    camicat
    September 15, 2004 - 08:00 pm
    Hail all, Justin,the feminine, genitive(of the whole), plural relative pronoun, 'quarum' relates back to 'partes' that is feminine plural which would translate 'of which(parts) one the Belgians inhabit'. 'ipsorum' means 'of THEMSELVES' not in a reflexive sense but in a sense of emphasis as 'in their very own language or in the language of themselves'. Am I correct,Ginny? Camicat

    Sandra Reese
    September 16, 2004 - 10:16 am
    Ginny,

    Salve! It's good to be back with Literature, although now I'll REALLY have to keep up. Since I can't find my old Latin books, could you recommend a good review text, please? Is Cassell's (sp?)still the best dictionary? Thanks.

    Sandy

    Ginny
    September 16, 2004 - 10:38 am
    SALVE dear Latin group, and don't be intimidated, Watchers, just plunge in, we just have a super time fooling around. We'll all learn something, I always do.

    WELCOME, Sandy!! The best Latin text I know of in print is the Wheelock, in paperback. Wheelock's Latin is an excellent resource, but you might want to try this one online, it's Dr. Grote's Comprehensive Companion to Wheelock's Latin . Dr. Grote is our Consultant for the Latin 101 courses and he's fabulous. I've put the link and will add it to the heading when this storm passes, it's not intended for former Latin teachers like yourself but is intended for beginners, still it has a lot of stuff, although maybe not the rare stuff, and it's online, he explains VERY carefully.

    Another possibility is this one but I'm not too sure of the provenance of it, so take it with a grain of salt: Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar

    And of course there's always Bennett, and Bennett's New Latin Grammar, along with Wheelock are the preferred choice of most Universities, the Wheelock as text and the Bennett as succinct reference.

    Cassell's is still the student's dictionary of choice tho Lewis and Short retains the top prize. I think last year somebody, was it you, Justin, was going to research the Oxford, it's a small pocket dictionary, what did you all find out?

    Salve, Moxie!! I am so glad to see you again, I fretted last year when you were not here, and I am glad you are OK!! AND rejoining us!

    And I realize we've come out swinging this year but what the heck, why not get into all the depth we can here!?! I vote yes?

    Salve dear Camicat, how delighted I am to see you again, and yes, quarum does refer back to partes, and it IS the Genitive of the Whole, well done, and partes IS feminine, you are right on!! A great start, this year!

    Ipsorum is quite interesting, I am really bemused that we've settled on it, in essence it's a tricky little buzzard.

    Ei and Belgae and Aquitani are all subjects of incolunt. Lingua is a (to me) rare Ablative of Accordance, and thus ipsorum, while not reflexive, carries the feeling literally of "in the language of [them] themselves." Now this is what I see, what do you all see? I see the word "themselves" (ipsorum) as modifying as an intensive the word "them" which is understood. So I guess you'd say in their own language, etc. It SEEMS to have a reflexive connotation while being intensive, you just have to supply "them" so it can have something to intensify, that's how I see it, how do the rest of you??

    There is a LOT more to Caesar than people think, what better group to be tackling it with??

    Welcome, All!!

    Ed Zivitz
    September 16, 2004 - 10:48 am
    Hello Ginny: The Roman Army had some deficiencies.Probably the outstanding deficiency was that it was basically an infantry army and although the Romans were fond of horses and horse racing,they never attempted to develop a cavalry arm as a complement to their infantry.

    In Caesar's day Gaul included the whole of modern France and Belgium,parts of Holland and Switzerland,and all of Germany west of the Rhine. Population was between 12 to 20 millions( according to Histoire General -1936)

    Inhabitants were mixed origin,but the Celts were thought to be the dominant race.Caesar divided them into three main groups because of language differences. The Celtae were located between the Garonne and Seine.The Aquitani in modern Gascony and the Belgae north of the Seine and Marne.

    Caesar held that the Belgae were the most courageous,because they were the furthest removed from the civilization of the Province and were mixed with barbaric Germans from east of the Rhine

    The Galli is the same as the Celtae

    Ginny
    September 16, 2004 - 10:49 am
    SALVE, Ed!! Welcome in, and thank you for that background, we will need tons, I was just shutting down in this awful storm and now I can happily take away your post which I printed, to reflect on! Welcome!

    camicat
    September 16, 2004 - 02:23 pm
    Ginny, You ask who are the Helvetians today. Switzerland (the Swiss). What remnant exists there from Roman time? I recall that Swiss cars have imprinted on their license plates, HELVETIA. What is unusual about the position of 'omnis'in the above context? It usually comes before the noun that it modifies-but Caesar placed it after the noun to emphasize the entirety of Gaul.What word should be understood with 'unam', 'aliam',tertiam'? Partem. One (part)of which; another(part)of which; the third(part) of which. Camicat

    camicat
    September 17, 2004 - 04:22 pm
    Ginny, You ask: Why is Caesar writing these commentaries on the Gallic War? I was curious also, having always thought that it was a personal journal for his own future use of do's and don'ts. But there must have been an ulterior reason and there was. He wrote these commentaries primarily as a report to the Roman Senate and people of his conduct and administration of the province of Gaul (Siedler,GUIDE TO CAESAR,1932). Ginny, you further ask: What's he trying to do there,what's the background? ".....the news that the tribe of Helvetii had begun their previously announced migration. An enormous caravan was now gathered on the banks of the Rhone River opposite the Roman garrison at Lake Geneva--the northern border of the province of Further Gaul. After two years of setting aside grain and supplies for the move, the Hevetii had burned their farms and fields to deny them to the advancing Germans and to strenthen their resolve not to be turned back. They had persuaded several neighboring tribes ....to do the same and join them . The total number of migrants and their families eas later said to be 360,000,a quater of whom were men bearing arms. Caesar decided immediately to prevent the migration, a decision that would in a few years cost the Celts in Gaul their lands,their wealth and their independence. It would put all but the fringes of Western Europe in Roman hands,and then put Rome in the hands of Caesar." (Jimenez,CAESAR AGAINST THE CELTS,2001,p45).

    Ginny
    September 17, 2004 - 04:36 pm
    OH well done, Camicat, and fabulous further research! I was just coming in with a figure and a question on the 350,000 and I see you have 360,000 and two references there, good !!! We will need them, I have many more questions! YAY!

    I have torn the house apart today, REALLY looking for something I saved for you all from my trip this past spring, deliberately saved, but of course (of course) I can't find it. One wonders why one travels when one can find nothing? Hahahaha

    But you're right here in what you said, there, well done!

    The Swiss, unbeknownst to Dumbo, here, have not gone over to the Euro, and so every time you pass through their country on a train you run the risk of starving to death (if you saw me you'd die over that one) for lack of Swiss Francs to buy things with ( which do have a beautiful rendering of the word Helvetia on them, big silver things). The WHOLE trip, I kept having them fall out of my suitcase, at the most inconvenient times, the WHOLE trip and I said oh it's ok it's worth it to bring this back to our group, but do you think I can FIND one of them?

    Oh well, I couldn't bring you chocolates, so I brought (and lost) the next best thing.

    One problem I always have with Caesar is my total inability to picture the areas he's obviously taking some pains to describe.

    Doesn't somebody somewhere make a MAP on which the difference in Gaul as a whole and Gallia are noted? I would kill to see such a thing, I can never get it straight?

    There's Gallia Citerior, Cisalpine Gaul which is nearer Gaul, which is this side of the Alps if I understand that correctly, so where would that be today? (I am very geographically challenged) and then there is ulterior or farther Gaul, Transalpine Gaul, and that would be what?

    Where today?

    I just spent a long time in this area, in Belgium, in Flanders (is he talking about Flanders?) I spent a week in Maggia in the bottom of Switzerland and Lake Como and Lake Maggiore ,and went down the Rhine. I tried to pay attention to these rivers but need some help here; it's clear as mud.

    So he's sort of (is he?) making it clear that it's the entire shebang he's talking about, just not Gaul between the Seine and the Garonne, but again I'm confused on the Marne. I do think if I could get the geography straight, maybe even color in the different areas on a map (why has somebody not DONE this before?) it would help an awful lot.

    Now do we know why he's there at all? In Gaul?


    OK so we have Gaul as a whole, meaning the whole shebang not just the narrow part of France, is divided into three parts.

    I love the way he starts that out, don't you? If you were writing about your exploits, is that the way you would have begun? I wouldn't. I'd be on and on about why I was there and when it was, etc., etc., but he starts right out with this curious sort of detached passive thing: Gaul IS divided, I love that style. Would you call it dry? Or? I love it. I love Caesar, even tho I can't figure out WHERE he was, and I'd really like to understand it ONCE!

    Ok now he's saying it's divided and what is the criteria with him for this division? He's the one dividing it.

    Ed, I've been reading up on the cavalry, it's kind of interesting how they used them at different points of the Empire and Republic, and you're right, Ed, that was a weak link in the Republican Army, I found that Caesar used Gallic and German cavalry and that they didn't always work out, interesting.

    Can you imagine how difficult it must have been back then to WAGE war? No walkie talkies, no air cover, your communications limited to???? It's really kind of fascinating to see what he did, he's still studied, I believe, in military academies.

    The whole thing about the Roman soldier is fascinating, people can barely believe what they were accustomed to do daily.


    I just found this in a book called Roman Warfare by Adrian Goldsworth, click on it, does it help at all?


    Caesar's Gallic Campaigns 58-50 BC



    hahaa He covered it well, didn't he? I can see modern Marseille in Gallia Transalpina (across the Alps) and Genova (Genoa) in Gallia Cisalpina (this side of the Alps). So Cisapline Gaul was in the top of Italy then?....where Torino is? Or?

    And on this map I do see the Rhine (Rhenum) to the left of the words Gallia Transalpina, looks like that big purple arrow and line run right up it?

    Ok and OK across the bottom you can see the Garonne (Garumna) going up from Tolouse, cutting off the bottom, ok…. But where is the Matrona and the Sequana?

    Oh wow, I see the Aquitanians, way off to the left there, what region of France is that today?

    All right those of you familiar with France (jeepers I've been to Provence I don't know how many times), _ what modern day town is near the Averni? And the Aquitani? Where would Carcasonne be on this map? I wish to get the boundaries clear? I wish I had a transparency of France. Maybe we should try to make one if none exists?

    So Caesar at least sees clear divisions in these three parts. OK so he says of which parts (very literal here) the Belgians inhabit one, the Aquitani another (well that's…if we colored that in, the Aquitanians are on the bottom left and the Belgians are up at the top center, and all the rest are Gauls?

    so how do you translate that ipsorum thing, those are both Nominatives, it's clear they call themselves Celtae but we call them Gauls, how can you translate that smoothly?

    Wait wait look at this! I am using …I just realized Iam using a 101 year old book to read Caesar in! I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to open these old pages and settle down once a day to enjoy this, it was printed in 1903!!! And here's a map from it, does it clear up any the divisions?

    Looks a bit different click on this?
    Gaul at the time of Caesar



    Now this one shows a definite color there for the Aquitanians in the left bottom? But the Belgians are all over the top? But I am seeing tribes all OVER the place, in both maps, why did Caesar make those three divisions, particularly??

    The Helvetians look quite small in both of these maps but there were, as Camicat has just explained, something like 350, 000 on the move, weren't there? I love this story, this whole Helvetians wanting to cross the borders thing, I am so looking forward to talking about it with you all!!

    Fill us in here, this is my weakest point, these details of Caesar's campaigns, and I would like, for once, to understand them.

    What fun!!

    OK Camicat, why moving and going where? There IS nowhere left of France? Give us the rationale on both sides, anybody and let's take sides, they made a civil enough request? Right?

    Ginny
    September 17, 2004 - 05:02 pm
    Also I do have to say, in studying the older map, that it's clear that modern Provence, France is labelled Provincia, or Province (from which Provence gets its present name) so that would include Avignon and Marseilles, and I wonder, Nimes? Or not? What are the boundaries of... when Caesar marched into Gaul WAS there or was there not a province already there?

    (Are you all a little surprised at the number of these tribes? They are literally ALL over the place?) Why are THEY not a division also? What's special about the Aquitani?

    Justin
    September 17, 2004 - 11:08 pm
    It looks to me as though Transalpine Gaul lies north and east of Marseille on a line toward Annecy and Lake Geneva. North and east of Geneva lies the home of the Helvetii. They must have been migrating west around Lausanne, Bern, and Zurich and moving toward Strasburg,Basel, and Nancy. The Rhone river is wide, deep, and fast moving. It handles the runoff from the Alps. The river runs north and south from the Med to Lake Geneva. It is about 500 or more miles long. If these people were moving west they would have cross the Rhone. I don't think it is ever wadeable. It's current would be slowest in late summer and early fall. Anyone moving out of Helvetia into France would have to cross the Rhone. That River must play a role in this story of Caesar and the Helvetii.

    Justin
    September 17, 2004 - 11:21 pm
    I see the land of the Aquitanii on the second map, the old one. They are in the South east of France and run from Toulouse to Bordeaux and south to Bayonne. That's nice country.

    Justin
    September 17, 2004 - 11:26 pm
    The Germans are pushing the Helvetii but what is pushing the Germans. Why should they, perhaps a half million strong, suddenly head west toward the Alps and its massifs?

    KleoP
    September 19, 2004 - 12:41 pm
    Ginny and all--

    I cross checked the Latin in the other source that Ginny posted. It is not acceptable. I don't have my notes with me as I am at the library. However, suffice it to say that I only had to check the third paragraph/book to establish that it cannot be used as the on-line source by this or any Latin reading class. I did verify that the errors were not merely acceptable transpositions of vowels or something that occurs when different pre-Guttenberg historical sources are used.

    Kleo

    Ginny
    September 20, 2004 - 05:27 am
    Thank you Justin for the location of the Aquitani, I an wondering what it was about THEM particularly, in opposition to another tribe in Gaul, which caused Caesar to say they were different in language, customs and laws? Why THEM?

    Also good point on the Rhone, I have never seen the Rhone but I've seen the Rhine, how do they compare? The Rhine is a big thing, this is going to be interesting.

    One thing that's fun, is this is not a class, it's a book discussion, so I feel perfectly free to kick back and NOT lecture and say oh why is that, I don't know, etc., and just enjoy myself, and learn from you all.

    Over and over in history we find these same types of things happening, groups wish to pass through or seek permission to move through a country or settle IN a country, so innocent, we see this over and over and over in Caesar alone, and the consequences, to everybody concerned. But it's still happening today. Is it that we can't learn from history or?

    Kleo thank you for that, I've double checked since you compared them, the words in the heading, and will be on alert, it's amazing how different versions ARE!!

    I keep thinking about 350,000 people and how Caesar got INTO this and why the Gauls would call on him. I think one reason is the Provincia, there on the bottom right, which Loeb informms me is Gallia Narbonensis, founded in 121 BC. Now I know nothing of this Province, what can anybody find out?

    350,000 people!!!! Caesar is about to tell us the why of their migration and who led it, so let's move on a bit with our translating and get to the good parts.

    So we have here what I think is a great precedessor of Arnold Schwarzenneger's "girly men," and that's minimeque ad eos mercatores saepe commeant atque ea quae ad effeminandos animos pertinent important hahaha, what all do you suppose Caesar has in mind here of weakening influences of the merchants? What would be some of the weakening examples?

    So we've got, so far, VERY literally as always from me for these first translations to help:
    1] Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres,
    Gaul as a whole is divided into three parts,

    quarum unam incolunt Belgae,
    of which one [part] the Belgians inhabit

    aliam Aquitani,
    another [part] the Aquitani [inhabit,]

    tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae,
    and the third [part] [is inhabited ] by those who in their own language [are called] Celts

    nostra Galli appellantur.
    but in our language are called Gauls.




    Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus
    These all in respect to language, customs, and laws

    inter se differunt.
    differ among themselves.

    Now is that going to be OK as a literal translation or do we need to do it even more like we did last year? Is this enough to get the gist? Or whould be say: inter se differunt
    among themselves differ.


    You to choose.

    OK somebody want to try a few more lines??

    I am fascinated by these tribes and the sheer numbers, I keep thinking if 350,000 people wanted to march past YOUR doors this morning, what would happen? What would they EAT? What a frightening prospect!

    camicat
    September 20, 2004 - 08:15 am
    Ginny, You ask what made Caesar state that Aquitania was different from the other Gauls in language,culture,and institutions. I read(but I can't recall where) that Aquitania situated in the southeast near Spain was predominantly Iberian (a people of ancient Spain). What's special about the Aquitani? I think its location between Roman 'provincia' and Roman occupied Spain. As to the question (Justin's) what propelled the Germans to a western aggression, I think was simply a conquering characteristic of the people at the time, which although stopped by the Roman army,achieved their objective 400 years later by overrunning the Roman Empire(the Vandals,Ostrogoths,Visigoths,et al.). Imagine,if it were not for Rome and in particular Caesar, France, Belgium,Switzerland and other parts of Europe may not have been imbued with a Greaco-Roman culture.

    camicat
    September 20, 2004 - 02:24 pm
    Ginny, Gallos ab Aquitanis Garumna flumen,a Belgis Matrona et Sequana dividit. (The Garonne River divides the [central] Gauls from the Aquitaines and the Marne together with the Seine divides [the centralGauls] from the Belgians). NB that the Seine is seen as a single continution of the Marne and therefore a singlular verb-'dividit'. Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae,propterea quod a cultu atque humanitate provinciae longissimae absunt, ( The bravest of all these are the Belgians because they are furthest away from civilization and refinement,)

    camicat
    September 20, 2004 - 02:58 pm
    Ginny, minimeque ad eos mercatores saepe commeant (and in no way do merchants ever reach them), atque ea ad effeminandos animos pertinent,important; (and in no way are those things that pertain to the weakening of character important to them;) NB that 'minime' governs both clauses therefore the two uses of 'in no way'. Proximique sunt Germanis, qui trans Rhenum incolunt,(and they[the Belgians] are closest to the Germans, who live right across the Rhine,) quibuscum continenter bellum gerunt. (with whom they continuously wage war). From this latter Latin verb and object we get our cognates 'belligerent' and even 'bellicose'. Camicat

    camicat
    September 20, 2004 - 06:26 pm
    Ginny , you speak of the awesomeness of the approximate 350,000 emigrants leaving an area for another. I have read that this number may have been grossly exaggerated and that it was probably a quarter that number. There would have had to be a cortege of wagons for a distance of at least 185 miles long going through a difficult mountain range of unsettled lands which would have made the flight unlikely. On the other hand,the Helvetii were pressed to expand because they were overcrowded within the confines of the Ural Mountains on one side ,the Roman 'province'on the other, and the menacing German tribes of the north. Such pressure would have made any thought of expansion probable.

    Ginny
    September 21, 2004 - 02:42 pm
    Great work Camicat!! I do like your take on the Aquitani, being so close to Spain and all, they would, probably, be more Spanish in speech and customs, that would explain a LOT they are right on that border, are the inhabitants of that region, I think Justin knows that region, are they Spanish today? I know in the bottom of present day Helvetia, where I have spent quite a bit of time, the Southern part of Switzerland is Italian, they speak Italian but the Germans do come there to summer, same old same old. Apparently I look German (or used to I just look old now ahahah) and I got some very interesting reactions in that area.

    Now Perseus in the Perseus Project (Tufts University) is not sure on those numbers, they say this about it:
    THE HELVETIAN WAR. -- Early in the year 58 B.C., the whole population of Helvetia (northern Switzerland ), amounting to about 360,000 attempted to pass by an armed emigration through the heart of Gaul, in order to settle somewhere near the shore of the Bay of Biscay, possibly with the hope of being masters of the whole country. They were hemmed in by the great natural barriers of the Alps, the Lake of Geneva, and the Jura Mountains on the south and west; and pressed on the north by great hordes of Germans, who kept up a continual border war. Their fields were scant, their harvests insufficient, their people hardy and fearless. Their ambitious chief, Orgetorix, had prepared them so well for this enterprise that his flight and death -- when he was charged with guilty conspiracy, and put on trial for his life -- caused no delay.


    But even IF it were only a third of 360, 000, that is a LOT of people~!!~ I would hate to see 50,000 people march past my mailbox, much less 150,000 and these were armed, and they obviously were organized, and I bet THAT latter part was what got the attention of the Romans. I wonder if….this is going to be fascinating, it's coming alive for me this time as it has not in the past.

    Now you can see Orgetorix there, that is a HUGE group of people, how on earth did they ever communicate? How did they ever get word to the outlying tribes? How did they ever agree on a signal to march?

    And march is not all they did as we shall soon see.

    Now what was their purpose? Did they just want to escape the Germans, it appears the Germans were all over them on the borders, and of course Switzerland IS a small country but the people are, as we all know, fiercely independent, and apparently were always so, so…what do YOU think and what do your sources think was their REAL plan here?

    That is a HECK of a lot of people!

    Even 50,000 is a lot of people!

    Great translation Camicat, I love the word bellum gerunt, and our derivative belligerent, talk about a word perfectly describing behavior.

    Of course the two books I bought ON Caesar AND this war at Oxford's Blackwell's Bookstore are TOTALLY AWOL, one does wonder why one travels, one seems to lose one's head upon return, but the old Britannica which I prize from the '60's (because they had much more space then to elaborate on things Classical), says this:


    Caesar was given Cisalpine Gaul, between the Alps, the Apennines, and the Adriatic.


    Do we have a map that shows that?

    When the governor designate of Transalpine Gaul (the one beyond our alps) unexpectedly died, this province, too, was assigned to Caesar at Pompey's insistence . (Caesar made the political partnership of his life when he did the First Triumvirate with Pompey and Crassus, the richest man in Rome (10 billion dollars estimated at today's standards)… Cisalpine Gaul gave him a recruiting ground and Transalpine Gaul give him an opportunity for conquest.


    It also interestingly mentions the Roman cavalry being inferior, Ed, to the Gallic, horseman for horseman. Caesar excelled in other areas.

    Caesar apparently, according to Bennett, considered the Helvetians Gauls as well, rightly or wrongly.

    Now on the sticky question of the Provincia Gallia Narbonensis (Narbonese Gaul, 121) I found this in the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature:
    The Latin word provincia originally meant the sphere of action of a magistrate possession imperium (the right to command), but came to mean in later republican times a territory outside Italy, subject to the Roman people, obliged to pay tribute to Rome, and governed by a resident Roman magistrate.

    Except in special circumstance a province did not have to provide military service.

    Here is some very interesting information, tho I have no idea of its accuracy from an interesting site, the http://www.unrv.com/provinces/gallia.php"> UNRV site of Roman History, apparently not affiliated with a university, but fascinating, tho take it with a grain of salt. They say:


    In 218 BCE during the Second Punic War, Gauls joined with Hannibal as he crossed the Rhône to invade Italy. Upon Hannibal's defeat in 202 BCE, the Gauls again tried to organize against Rome, but the Boii, then the dominant Gallic tribe, were subdued by 191 BCE. Thereafter, the Gauls were never again able to successfully challenge the Roman military. In the years following Hannibal's defeat, the Romans expanded throughout the Mediterranean. After reinforcing the northern colonies of Placentia and Cremona in 203 BCE, Roman troops expanded into Cisalpine Gaul. They waged costly, drawn-out campaigns against Gallic and Iberian tribes and finally, in 121 BCE, the Gauls were defeated on the lower Rhône, opening southern France to Roman rule.

    An alliance with the Aedui against the Allobroges and the Arverni brought the Romans control of the Rhône River valley after 120 BCE.

    The Roman colony of Narbo Martius (Narbonne) was founded on the coast in 118, and the southern province became known as Gallia Narbonensis. An invasion by Germanic Cimbri and Teutones was defeated by Gaius Marius in 102, but 50 years later a new wave of invasions into Gaul, by the Helvetii from Switzerland and the Suevi from Germany, triggered Roman conquest of the rest of Gaul by Julius Caesar in 58–50 BCE.


    That's interesting? In this we need to be watching carefully if we are seeing organization or scattered tribes and what Caesar did and how he figured out best to approach them. Love it.

    OK are we ready to move on??

    Now this is a great part! We learn what CAESAR thinks is the motivation of the Helvetians, and the pitiful part is they LEFT no records? They were barbarians? They wrote nothing, or if they did, it's long lost, so we have Caesar's own opinion only. He was a shrewd man, was he right, do you think? OR is he slanting this for his own use? Why is he writing this, again??

    Can we find any historical commentary which gives another motivation to the Helvetians? Fascinating, let's have a bit more: (this is not checked for error, so if you see one, please let us know)

    Qua de causa Helvetii
    quoque reliquos Gallos
    virtute praecedunt,

    quod fere

    cotidianis proeliis
    cum Germanis contendunt,
    cum aut suis finibus
    eos prohibent
    aut ipsi in eorum finibus
    bellum gerunt.

    Eorum una, pars,
    quam Gallos obtinere dictum est,
    initium capit a flumine Rhodano,
    continetur Garumna flumine,
    Oceano, finibus Belgarum,
    attingit etiam ab Sequanis et Helvetiis flumen Rhenum,
    vergit ad septentriones.

    Belgae
    ab extremis Galliae finibus
    oriuntur,
    pertinent ad inferiorem partem fluminis Rheni,
    spectant in septentrionem
    et orientem solem.

    Aquitania a Garumna flumine
    ad Pyrenaeos montes
    et eam partem Oceani
    quae est ad Hispaniam pertinet;
    spectat inter occasum solis
    et septentriones.

    [2] Apud Helvetios
    longe nobilissimus fuit et ditissimus
    Orgetorix.
    Is
    M. Messala, [et P.] M. Pisone consulibus regni
    cupiditate inductus
    coniurationem nobilitatis fecit
    et civitati persuasit
    ut de finibus suis
    cum omnibus copiis
    exirent:
    perfacile esse,
    cum virtute omnibus praestarent,
    totius Galliae imperio potiri.

    Id hoc
    facilius iis persuasit,
    quod undique loci
    natura Helvetii continentur:
    una ex parte flumine Rheno
    latissimo atque altissimo,
    qui agrum Helvetium a Germanis dividit;
    altera ex parte
    monte Iura altissimo,
    qui est inter Sequanos et Helvetios;
    tertia
    lacu Lemanno
    et flumine Rhodano,
    qui provinciam nostram ab Helvetiis dividit.

    His rebus fiebat ut
    et minus late vagarentur
    et minus facile finitimis bellum
    inferre possent;
    qua ex parte
    homines bellandi cupidi
    magno dolore
    adficiebantur.

    Now that's pretty strong stuff, right there? That's also beautiful Latin. I know some people prefer Cicero, but ol Caesar is straight forward (did you know he wrote a grammar?) and has already begun to use some of his trademark expressions, which we may as well get down pat before we travel too far on. Here he gives us the boundaries of the Helvetians and advances some ideas why they might have wandered and even names names. Fascinating!!!!

    So what do you think of the reasons he gives? Do you think he's right? Pick a sentence and try it!!

    KleoP
    September 22, 2004 - 01:34 pm
    Wikipedia, in its brief article on Aquitaine says it "was quite thoroughly Romanized in its culture, unlike northern Gaul."

    Wikipedia on Aquitaine

    Kleo

    Justin
    September 22, 2004 - 10:43 pm
    Gerhard Herm offers some contradictory observations in his book, aptly named "The Celts".(NY, 1976) He quotes the famous first sentence 'Gallia est omnis divisa...' and then says that 'the triple division hardly squares with reality.'

    'Archaeologists know that the area Caesar ascribes to the Aquitani was settled by Celtiberians. He also points out that the northern areas aledged to be inhabited by the Belgae were in fact characterized by a La Tene culture.'

    'Modern scholars make little of these three pieces of information and philologists are fairly certain that the tribes living in northern Gaul were Celtic speakers and thus not Germans. Why did Caesar suggest they were?' Herm concludes Caesar just did not know.

    Ginny
    September 23, 2004 - 02:15 pm
    Oh isn't that interesting, thank you Kleo, I had no idea there WAS an Aquitaine and look at that super flag, love that, but HIST? Finally a map we can visualize but THIS Aquitaine (which can only be a direct derivative from the original Aquitani) is not the same place as the one Caesar knew? It's much shrunk and lines the left border whereas in the old map the Aquitani run all the way across the bottom? Fascinating, let's see if we can find out more, that's a new one on me!

    Justin, it's entirely possible he didn't know and actually...well we'll see about the division of Gaul but now the CELTS, why am I confused with them and thinking of Celtic crosses and Great Britain?

    And this from the Herne: "...Caesar ascribes to the Aquitani was settled by Celtiberians. " What is a Celtiberian?

    And then on the one about the philologists are fairly certain that the tribes living in northern Gaul were Celtic speakers and thus not Germans. Northern Gaul? I thought the Belgae were there, I ddn't think Caesar said they were Germans, did he? Confusion reigns here!

    He also points out that the northern areas aledged to be inhabited by the Belgae were in fact characterized by a La Tene culture. Ok again, I haven't read the Herne book, he SEEMS to be saying however that they did have their own culture? Or is this La Tene culture also found in Gaul proper?

    It's always kind of amazed me how different these countries are, even today, even tho so closely situated in miles. The Belgians are different and their native language is very strange sounding and quite ancient, I got to hear a lot of it this past spring. Fascinating, really. I have not been on the bottom of France there where it borders Spain and don't have any knowledge of the culture there today but if I had (or YOU had) to divide up Gaul today, wouldn't YOU say the Dutch, the Netherlands are different from the French and the Belgians are different from the French and I'm not sure of those near Spain??

    Ed, I just realized you may be affected by the awful storms and I hope you are OK!!

    Justin
    September 23, 2004 - 02:56 pm
    There are at least two languages in Belgium-Flemish and French. Many people there speak both languages. My French teacher of a few years ago was Flemish.

    The Acquitain in the 12th century was the property of Eleanor. She married Phillip of France, separated, and then married Henry ll of England. They all wanted her title to the Acquitain. It caused all sorts of problems for the reigning heads. She gave it to Richard who became a prisoner of Islam during the Crusades. Sulieman would have taken the Acquitain for ransom but did not get it. England found enough gold to bail him out.

    Justin
    September 23, 2004 - 03:20 pm
    La Tene culture is that of the Celts. They were primarily tribesmen. Some tribes were larger than others. A Celtic tribe also inhabited Ireland. I have a German (Austrian) Celtic ancestry. That's why I am so mixed up sometimes. The two backgrounds are continually fighting it out in my head.

    Justin
    September 23, 2004 - 03:52 pm
    "Effeminandos" must refer to cosmetics carried by merchants and used by Persians to adorn themselves. Caesar thinks that a Celtic man wearing perfume is effeminate. The Belgae because they are neighbors of the Germans don't have time for the peaceful pursuits requiring adornment.

    Justin
    September 23, 2004 - 04:39 pm
    Winston C. in his Birth of Britain says Caesar "knew that it (Britain) was inhabited by the same type of tribesmen who confronted the Roman arms in Germany, Gaul , and Spain. They were the same Celtic stock, somewhat intensified by insular life. Refugees from momentarily conquered Gaul were welcomed and sheltered in Britania."

    Justin
    September 23, 2004 - 04:48 pm
    Winnie says in his preface," in the mists of time we can very faintly discern the men of the new stone age, the newcomers from the Rhineland... standing on a grassy down where Dover now stands."

    Justin
    September 24, 2004 - 10:54 pm
    The Durants say that some Gauls responding to Caesar's actions, "rebelled, and invoked the aid of the Belgae, a powerful tribe of Germans and Celts inhabiting North Gaul between the Seine and the Rhine." (page 175, vol lll, 1944)

    Ginny
    September 25, 2004 - 09:18 am
    hahaha SNAFU, is that a Latin word? Hahaah SNAFU, SNAFUS Fourth MASCULINE! Hahahahaha no here I keep wondering why nobody is translating and by gum, through a miscue we did not have the new text IN the heading, it's NOT you all! Hahahaa SOO now this morning we have our new section and isn't IT interesting and a few questions but we'd love to hear your own, I love this part, keep in mind that Caesar is marching into Gaul, he needs a good reason, he's giving one, but IS he accurate? What do your sources say??


    Justin, Eleanor of Aquitaine!! DUH!! I have read how many books on her, I don't know why I can't get HER straight! So that area has been inhabited for a long long time, thank you for that!

    WE have taken up that effeminandos in some of the Latin classes as to the incredible number of imports, I'll run get the post on that, one thing that did not help was the importation of slaves, it did not help the morals or the general strength of the people, hold on, it's very interesting!

    Good point, Justin on the Germans not having time for adornment, what do we know, and who do we know it from, about this time?

    What other historians were writing of these peoples this far back? Caesar is not a dispassionate observer, or IS he?

    Winnie and Caesar have something in common then, about the Dover downs, I hope we can get to Caesar's description of the early Brits! Hahaha

    hang on, and while hanging, who would like to try a line or two or a shot at the questions??

    camicat
    September 25, 2004 - 09:20 am
    Ginny, Latin: QUA DE CAUSA HELVETII QUOQUE RELIQUOS GALLOS VIRTUTE PRAECEDUNT (For which reason the Helvetians also [as the Belgae] surpass the other remaining Gauls in courage),QUOD FERE COTIDIANIS PROELIS CUM GERMANIS CONTENDUNT (because they contend with wars almost daily against the Germans),CUM AUT SUIS FINIBUS EOS PROHIBENT (whenever they [the Helvetians] either stop them[the Germans] from [entering] their territories, AUT IPSI IN EORUM FINIBUS BELLUM GERUNT. or they themselves (the Helvetians) would wage war in their[the Germans']territories. Camicat

    Ginny
    September 25, 2004 - 09:27 am
    Great job, Camicat!! How long would you say the border of the Helvetians and the Germans WAS? I am thinking from the map that the Helvetians border with the Germans might not have been that large, yet Caesar here says they are continually waging war and even entering the lands of the Germans aggressively? It's hard to see who the aggressor IS here, and I don't think that is coincidental, something here is not adding up, (of course the woman who forgot Aquitaine may be having a "moment?" hahahaha)

    Here's the bit on the imports, now Caesar was of the Republic but he saw this coming little by little as they conquered more lands and got used to more things:

    "Ad effeminandos…." The question has been asked about what the merchants might have brought in which might tend to weaken the Romans at this period of time. One person has pointed out that importing slaves was not particularly ennobling and could cause the Romans to be dependent on them and maybe a little debauched as a result. Here are some other things brought in that might have, certainly in Caesar's day caused some alarm!

    The biggest export was wine from Rome and Italy. They imported glassware from Egypt, along with paper, linen and grain, Africa sent olive oil and wheat, Spain sent metals, Britain sent tin, Gaul sent pottery and cloth, the Baltic region sent amber, India sent rugs and perfumes, while China sent silks. In Nero's time a silken lounge cost $75,0000 while certain purple silk fabric (sericoblata) cost $1,800 a pound.

    Silk dealers were called sericarii.

    Pepper was imported from India, the Egyptians popularized the onion. In later Rome, many foods were imported from the provinces and foreign nations, such as


    rabbits, pheasants peacocks!!!!, apricots, peaches, cherries, oysters, sausages, figs, cucumbers and certain kinds of cheese. The Romans also held in high regard foods of a yellow color and hence saffron was used profusely to effect that coloring.

    There were two kinds of merchants: wholesalers and retailers. Retailers were usually freed slaves, aliens, or members of lower classes, as a group in general they were looked upon with contempt because retail trade was considered sordid since it was believed to thrive by lying.

    (Albert F Warsley)

    Ginny
    September 25, 2004 - 09:31 am
    You know every society has its creature comforts, SALT was very important to the Romans, and we all have our things we could not do without, but which, when you think about it, might not be the best for us morally. Think on it. When what you use to enjoy yourself depends on another country's imports, what does that say about your own self sufficiency? The parallels to our modern society are strong here?

    Mippy
    September 25, 2004 - 01:32 pm
    Hi, everyone, I've been reading along, although just a newby in Latin 101.
    Will Durant, vol 2 and 3, gives a lot of hints, but I think the idea may imply tastes or love of literature.
    Could this imply something that only appeals to "girly men", as Ginny called it, or to the women in Roman society? (Source: McCullough).
    Northern Europeans were in a harsher climate, with less time for "fun", which may have contributed to their disdain for literary diversions and poetry. As we know, Greeks and Romans were great lovers of poetry, theater, etc. and usually even the senators (except Cato) could take off a few hours for the theater.

    camicat
    September 25, 2004 - 02:44 pm
    Ginny, EORUM UNA PARS, QUAM GALLOS OBTINERE DICTUM EST (one section of these which [as] it has been said that the Gauls possess),INITIUM CAPIT A FLUMINE RHODANO ( takes its beginning from the Rhone River); CONTINETUR GARUMNA FLUMINE, OCEANO, FINIBUS BELGARUM; (it is contained [bounded] by the Garonne River, the ocean, and the territory of the Belgae; ATTINGIT ETIAM AB SEQUANIS ET HELVETIIS FLUMEN RHENUM; VERGIT AD SEPTENTRIONES (it also touches [extends to] the Rhine River from the side of the Sequani and the Helvetii); [and] stretches to the north [the northern constellation of seven stars]. Camicat

    camicat
    September 25, 2004 - 03:41 pm
    Ginny, BELGAE AB EXTREMIS GALLIAE FINIBUS ORIUNTUR;( the Belgae rise [begin] from the outermost northern boundaries of 'inner' Gaul); PERTINENT AD INFERIOREM PARTEM FLUMINIS RHENI; and (extends to the lower part of the Rhine River); SPECTANT IN SEPTENTRIONEM ET ORIENTEM SOLEM (they face the northern constellation and the rising sun = they lie in the northeast). AQUITANIA A GARUMNA FLUMINE AD PYRENAEOS MONTES ET EAM PARTEM OCEANI,QUAE EST AD HISPANIAM,PERTINET; (Aquitania extends from the Garonne River to the Pyrenees Mountains and that part of the ocean which is near Spain;) SPECTAT INTER OCCASUM SOLIS ET SEPTENTRIONES. (it faces between the setting of the sun and the northern costellation = it lies between the west and the north [toward the northwest???]. camicat

    Justin
    September 25, 2004 - 05:04 pm
    I think Caesar was already in Cisalpine Gaul as Governor when the Gauls provoked a response from the Romans.The senate then asked Caesar to respond, and gave him the tools to do the job. I don't have source for that information. It's just an impression I have.

    camicat
    September 26, 2004 - 04:10 pm
    Ginny et al. Translation: APUD HELVETIOS LONGE NOBILISSIMUS FUIT ET ORGETORIX. (Among the Helvetians by far the most noble and richest was Orgetorix). IS, M. MESSALA, M. PISONE CONSULIBUS, REGNI CUPIDITATE INDUCTUS CONIURATIONEM NOBILITATIS FECIT, ET CIVITATI PERSUASIT (He [Orgetorix], during the consulship of M.Mesalla and M. Piso, induced by the desire of [ruling] the kingdom made a conspiracy of the nobility [formed a plot with some of the nobles]), persuading the state [officials], UT DE FINIBUS SUIS CUM OMNIBUS COPIIS EXIRENT; that they should exit their territories with all their supplies [belongings]; PERFACILE ESSE,CUM VIRTUTE OMNIBUS PRAESTARENT (that it would be very easy since [cum] they surpassed all other nations[tribes] in courage, TOTIUS GALLIAE IMPERIO POTIRI.)[and]that they could gain the empire of all Gaul. Camicat

    moxiect
    September 26, 2004 - 06:23 pm


    Ginny,

    I'm still here but have been so busy I haven't had a chance to do any translations. But I'll keep trying to get one done. You haven't lost me.

    Ed Zivitz
    September 27, 2004 - 08:45 am
    Did this question get answered?Did Caesar wish to conquer Gaul.Perhaps improbable.But his plea-were the Helvetii to occupy the lands of the Santones,the Province would be menaced-was a fictitious one,because those lands were nowhere near the Tolosates (Toulouse) and the Helvetii would be lees of a menace to the Province (in Saintonge) than had they remained in Switzerland.

    Was Caesar ambitious?In order to gain dominion over the Roman world,Caesar first had to win the means wherewith to master NOT Gaul,or any other country,but Crassus and Pompey. To dominate Crassus he needed great wealth.To dominate Pompey he needed great renown and a powerful army. To war against the Helvetii he could gain both and achieve his aim of personal aggrandizement.

    To achieve supreme power without ridding himself of his two partners was his goal.To imagine that in 58 B.C. he wanted to add only another province to the empire is chimerical;unwittingly ,the Helvetii opened the door to the attainment of his goal and Caesar seized the opportunity and stepped through the door.

    Can you imagine an almost linear path stretching from the great Caesar to that other great Italian observer of political intrigue,Machiavelli and by further extension to Napoleon Bonaparte and if you really want to make a stretch,to present day foreign adventures which take the mind away from domestic situations.

    Mippy
    September 27, 2004 - 05:06 pm
    More on Roman life and the "weakening of the spirit"
    Source: Will Durant
    During our power failure, reread Will Durant, Vol III, (no www link):

    [they collected] furniture, lamps and utensils made of lasting materials, and lavishly adorned; the best wood, ivory, marble, bronze, silver, and gold were carefully turned and finished, decorated with plant or animals forms, or inlaid with ivory, tortoise shell, chased bronze, or precious stones.
    In the reign of Tiberius, [says] Pliny, the art of glass blowing was brought from Alexandria... and produced polychome cups and bowls of such delicate beauty that they became for a time the favorites ... of art collectors and millionaires.
    All these are quite non-utilitarian, right? So the "old days" of the early Republic had been replaced by a life of epicurean luxury among those Romans who could afford it.

    Mippy
    September 27, 2004 - 05:23 pm
    Since no one else has taken this question, I'll jump in again.
    Marcus Messala and Marcus Piso were the consuls -- consulibus regni -- in the year Caesar began his duties as governor of Cisalpine and Narbonese Gaul (Source: Durant), and years in the republic were commonly referred to as the years of the 2 councils, who -- under normal circumstances -- held office for one year, beginning in January. That year was 58.

    Note Narbonese Gaul is "our province" in southern France.

    Justin
    September 27, 2004 - 06:44 pm
    Caesar's assignment as Governor of Cisalpine Gaul was an independent action of the Senate. When the Helvetii began to appear in North Gaul the Senate recognized the danger of them pushing further south toward the Med. A policy of the Roman Senate was not to invade for plunder but to act preemptively. It is at this stage in the development of things that Caesar is offered additional legions and a commission to push the Helvetii back to Switzerland. I draw this from my reading but I can not pinpoint a specific source.

    camicat
    September 27, 2004 - 07:22 pm
    Ginny et al. Latin: ID HOC FACILIUS EIS PERSUASIT,he persusded (id)that(emigration) to them because of this[hoc], QUOD UNDIQUE LOCI NATURA HELVETII CONTINENTUR: that the Helvetians are bottled in on all sides by the nature of its location: UNA EX PARTE FLUMINE RHENO,LATISSIMO ATQUE ALTISSIMO,QUI AGRUM HELVETIUM A GERMANIS DIVIDIT; from one side by a very wide and very deep river the Rhine which divides the Helvetian land from the German; ALTERA EX PARTE MONTE IURA ALTISSIMO, QUI EST INTER SEQUANOS ET HELVETIOS; on the other side the very high Iura Mountain,which is between the Sequani and the Helvetians; TERTIA ,LACU LEMANNO ET FLUMINE RHODANO,QUI PROVINCIAM NOSTRAM AB HELVETIIS DIVIDIT. on the third side,by Lake Lemanno and the Rhone River,which divides our province from the Helvetians. Camicat

    Justin
    September 27, 2004 - 10:45 pm
    Qua de causa Helvetii...contendunt,...

    It is for this reason the Helvetii also exceed the Gauls in bravery because usually they contend with the Germans in battle,

    ...cum aut suis finibus eos prohibent, aut ipsi in eorum finibus bellum gerunt.

    ...either defending borders or fighting in Germany.

    moxiect
    October 1, 2004 - 06:50 am


    Ginny,

    Here is my translation of:

    His rebus fiebat ut et minus late vagarentur et minus facile finitimis bellum inferre possent; qua ex parte homines bellandi cupidi magno dolore adficiebantur.

    While this event takes place and also less unimportant the lurking wanderer and not at all least without difficulty adjoining neighbors battle a military force that can influence everyone who according to side gains influence the struggle of powerful greedy men indignation.

    Justin
    October 2, 2004 - 01:17 pm
    Ginny: We should be aware of the existance of a good map of 4th century England showing Latin and English names for places. Robby linked it in Story of Civ. It is #762 posted on 10-2-04. If we turn up a good one for Gaul I will let you know of it.

    Mippy
    October 2, 2004 - 01:23 pm
    Here is the link from the above post, to speed everyone up

    http://www.reisenett.no/map_collection/historical/shepherd/Roman_Britain.jpg

    We are a long, long way from Caesar's march to Britian, but why not dream a little!

    Justin
    October 2, 2004 - 10:19 pm
    Mippy: You are right.It is a long march to Britain but good maps tend to disappear in the mists of past posts in Story of Civ. If we store good stuff in the Latin Club's files it will be available when we need it.

    camicat
    October 3, 2004 - 07:09 pm
    Ginny, Translation: HIS REBUS FIEBAT,UT ET MINUS LATE VAGARENTUR ET MINUS FACILE FINITIMIS BELLUM INFERRE POSSENT. With these happenings it came to be (there resulted) that they moved about even less widely and were able to bring on war less easily on their neighbors. QUA EX PARTE HOMINES BELLANDI CUPIDI MAGNO DOLORE AFFICIEBANTUR. From the part of which (resulting that) men desirous of warring were affected with great regret.PRO MULTITUDINE AUTEM HOMINUM ET PRO GLORIA BELLI ATQUE FORTITUDINIS ANGUSTOS SE FINES HABERE ARBITRABANTUR, but they thought themselves to have cramped territories for such a great number of people especially for those with a bravery and glory for war, QUI IN LONGITUDINEM MILIA PASSUUM CCXL, IN LATITUDINEM CLXXX PATEBANT. which extended two hundred forty thousand paces(240 miles)in length, one hundred eighty miles in width. Camicat

    Ginny
    October 9, 2004 - 03:03 pm
    Ehu!



    DEAR little Latin Book Club!! Every day I get up and say today I will post and every day 10 pm comes and I don't make it in here, well guess what? Don't shoot the AWOL leader, proficiscamur et gaudiamus!! (I believe the Latin 101 classes are getting to me, it's a great review and grand time), you ought to SEE the comments (well you CAN look up at the top of the page for Web Courses and click on the Latin 101 to see some of the many great thoughts!


    But I'm baaack and you have carried on splendidly without me, Caesar would be totally proud of you! I expect he'd send me home!

    Or treat me like Considius, my favorite story in all of Caesar, coming up!

    Now that's a LOVELY passage above and I think you've done a fabulous job with it, let's look at the points you have made and do a quick sort of literal job and then move on, I am very anxious to get to Orgetorix and Considius, just love that story!

    I've come bearing gifts, tho, here is another 100 year old map for you showing Caesar's movements in red, and the best thing is that you can SEE the Arar and it's the Saone!! Who knew? And you can see the somewhat modern towns, 100 years ago :


    Caesar's Route Through Gaul 58 BC, click to enlarge!



    So this might help us a little bit.

    Also I thought this might be good,


    Orgetorix, the Helvetians and the Sequanians: click to enlarge

    Mippy, thank you for that additional super submission of things which might take away from self reliaince and lead to effeminandos hahaah

    Camicat, well done on this tricky bit! I'll tell you what, I see no need to write that again, you did it better than I would have. OK Lewis and Short have for septentriones : The seven plough oxen; hence as a constellation. Literally the seven stars near the north pole called also the Great or Little Bear.

    Here apparently he means the North West? As you said. Charming, isn't it?

    Justin, you always bring up the most interesting things, none of my books say definitely where Caesar was when this problem broke out, mine seem to have him in Rome passing law after law, how can we find this out definitely? OH I wish I could find my book on him bought at Oxford last summer (was it only last summer?!?) and lugged all over Europe only to disappear here!

    Camicat, lovely translation, I believe I would enjoy just watching YOU go! Hahaha About the consulship, I guess we might want to note that the Romans tended to date events much as we do, what's the first thing they ask you in a hospital? Who is president and that's what the Romans did, they dated by the annual consulships so the consulship of Marcus Messala and Marcus Piso (this, of course, was one of Caesar's famous Ablative Absolutes), was in 61 BC. So we know the date that Orgetorix, supposedly, what, desiring to be king, formed some sort of coalition of leaders and somehow persuades hordes of Helvetians to leave their country. Caesar says it's because it was hard for them to wage war, their borders being so narrow, they could not maneuver and THAT made them very unhappy! Hahahaa Because they did desire war.

    According to him.

    I guess it's possible they might have had other reasons?

    That's a beautiful region but very mountainous, do you think Caesar was right?

    Moxie, I am so glad we haven't lost you, I understand busy, we'll probably take 2,000 years ourselves to progress, but it's fun anyway!

    THERE'S our Ed!!! Hey Ed! Ah so you see Caesar also with an ulterior motive possibly.

    Love this: Can you imagine an almost linear path stretching from the great Caesar to that other great Italian observer of political intrigue, Machiavelli and by further extension to Napoleon Bonaparte and if you really want to make a stretch, to present day foreign adventures which take the mind away from domestic situations. I think Caesar would have to be up there with the greatest strategists of all time, Caesar did a lot of good, tho, and if not stopped might have done more, I think, but you are right, this was the way to make a fortune and the Helvetians did seem to provoke this. But I can understand the Gauls' position as we will see, too? I still would not like 360,000 people or 1/3 that marching by my mailbox. Truly?

    Mippy, those are fabulous additions to our collection of things, and the glassblowing you are totally right, was fabulous. I have seen unbelievable things in Germany in museums that I thought were fakes they were so clear, great points!! Oh good for you Mippy on the Consuls, but my notes have them in 61, how can we find out?

    Good point Justin (gee you all have been having a super discussion here by yourselves!!) on the defensive decisions Caesar made.

    Great job again Camicat, have you all been to Lake Geneva, it's really something, you'd think they'd WANT to live there? You'd think they would feel safe? Maybe there IS something in what Caesar says, after all?

    Thank you Justin and Moxie, now we're ALL translating, that's the time!!

    Please do let us know, Justin if a map turns up we can use, we're semi desperate here.

    I agree, Mippy we're a long way from Britain, would you believe Phinney goes to Britain in his Book 2?

    THAT is a lovely map! WE must save it!

    Camicat surges ahead and I really see nothing that we need to even mention so let's move on today, does anybody have any questions about this passage? Caesar, not to have spoken to Orgetorix at this point, seems pretty sure what's driving him, I love the way he just states it!

    (That is a short country, tho, but it's all MOUNTAINS!) And very gorgeous. I'm trying to think of the little town right in the middle of it, Avenches? Which has a fabulous Roman amphitheatre and museum, just smack in the middle of nowhere.

    OK well let's move on and our man is hurrying to the area, the Helvetians led by that crafty Orgetorix are marching…and… coming across….where, exactly? Let's see their preparations for the journey!

    (This bit is beautifully illustrated in the illustrated Caesar, I may have to sneak in an illustration or two, I love this part, they were not stupid, they packed well for the trip, AND, it sounds, planned well also, wouldn't you say? That sounds like a very careful plan, to me.

    (Does it strike you at all that Orgetorix did what Caesar did? He formed a triumvirate, too, but in his case not necessarily with the government's approval. Fascinating. He got two other chieftains to go in with him , (didn't one have to take control of his group?) and the three of them proceeded to influence the rest? But apparently the main body of Helvetians got wind of it and……

    But what a strange tale, it's almost Homeric, let's see what happens to our man Orgetorix!!

    OH but I really can't resist first pointing out in Camicat's translation one of my favorite phrases, milia passuum the famous Roman mile. Literally thousands of paces or miles. A passus was two steps. A thousand paces equaled 5,000 Roman feet, almost an English mile. Milia is Accusative of Extent of Space while passuum is Genitive of the Whole.

    LOVE that phrase!

    (It's thought that that number of CLXXX is a transcript error and should read eighty).

    So let's look in the heading for our next BIZARRE installment, Homer had nothing on Orgetorix!!

    Who wants to take a line or two??

    camicat
    October 10, 2004 - 10:22 am
    Ginnya, Latin: HIS REBUS ADDUCTI ET AUCTORITATE ORGETORIGIS PERMOTI CONSTITUERUNT EA, English: Influenced by these considerations and deeply moved by the authoritative example of Orgetorix they(the Helvetians) decided, (EA) QUAE AD PROFICISCENDUM PERTINERUNT,COMPARARE, to get ready those things which pertained to the departure, IUMENTORUM ET CARRORUM QUAM MAXIMUM NUMERUM COEMERE, to buy up the greatest number of pack animals and wagons as possible, SEMENTES QUAM MAXIMAS FACERE, (seeds) to make the largest plantings as possible, UT IN ITINERE COPIA FRUMENTI SUPPETERET, so that an abundance of grain be at hand on their journey, CUM PROXIMIS CIVITATIBUS PACEM ET AMICITIAM CONFIRMARE. to assure peace and friendship with their neighboring tribes. Camicat. PS Come on Justin, Moxie, et alii, I have to work at it too. Memento: Audentes fortuna iuvat,(Virgil)

    camicat
    October 11, 2004 - 03:59 pm
    Ginny, Translation: AD EAS RES CONFICIENDAS BIENNIUM SIBI SATIS ESSE DUXERUNT; to get all these things done they reckoned that two years would be sufficient for them; IN TERTIUM ANNUM PROFECTIONEM LEGE CONFIRMANT. they establish by law that their departure would be within the third year. AD EAS RES CONFICIENDAS ORGETORIX DELIGITUR. Orgetorix is chosen to accomplish (all)these things. IS SIBI LEGATIONEM AD CIVITATES SUSCIPIT. He takes upon himself a (briefing)mission to the (nearby) clans. Camicat.

    moxiect
    October 11, 2004 - 04:51 pm


    Ginny and Comcat, I'm here, working on translation in between everything else.

    camicat
    October 12, 2004 - 08:39 am
    Ginny, Translation: IN EO ITINERE PERSUADET CASTICO,CATAMANTALOEDIS FILIO,SEQUANO,CUIUS PATER REGNUM IN SEQUANIS MULTOS ANNOS OBTINUERAT on that (mission)trip he persuades Casticus,the son of Catamanloedes,a Sequanian, whose father had possession of the ruling power of the Sequani for many years ET A SENATU POPULI ROMANI AMICUS APELLATUS ERAT and was called a friend by the Senate of the Roman people, UT REGNUM IN CIVITATE SUA OCCUPARET,QUOD PATER ANTE HABUERAT; (and further persuades Casticus) that he (Casticus) should take possession of the power in his own state which (power) his father had had previously; Camicat. PS Moxiect, I realize that you and the others are busy with many chores; I was just getting lonely on these (battle to be) fields of Caesar. I further realize that it can be difficult to relearn difficult material of the past and admire all of you for the attempts. *Comcat(Camicat)

    Ginny
    October 13, 2004 - 04:32 am
    Camicat, I love the way you translate, and I love the way this starts out, Caesar leaves NO doubt in anybody's mind that Orgetorix has made a great impression: His rebus adducti et auctoritate Orgetorigis permoti They are moved by Orgetorix's authority and influenced by this desire for war, their narrow boundaries and a host of other things. I wonder how many of them WERE true. And are we seeing a coup here? What do you think?

    So they're getting ready: sementes quam maximas facere, ut in itinere copia frumenti suppeteret, the army travels on its stomache, they are really making very detailed plans… but what did you make of this? cum proximis civitatibus pacem et amicitiam confirmare. And they figure it will take 2 years for all this to be ready: Ad eas res conficiendas biennium sibi satis esse duxerunt; and this alone shows quite a bit of organization I bet it scared the Romans silly to see it, the Romans liked to think of THEMSELVES as the organized groups and the barbarians as just that, running around loosely with no coherent center. HERE is a coherent center with a plan, yet! SCARY, especially since there are SO many of them, exaggerated or not!

    Now let's pause a minute here because several things are happening, our man Orgetorix is sent out for one thing: Ad eas res conficiendas Orgetorix deligitur. Is sibi legationem ad civitates suscipit. but on the way he undertakes quite another: ut regnum in civitate sua occuparet, quod pater ante habuerit. Now who can explain what's happening here?

    We have two levels operating, fascinating, I think?

    Mippy
    October 13, 2004 - 01:08 pm
    Hello again, from a "brave" Latin 101 person,

    The Helvetians are mad as hell because Orgetorix was going to upset their applecart, organizing a group of young princelings, who were hotheads, or "young Turks", in a 20th century analogy. He and his co-conspirators were about to overthrow some of the powerful, exiting clan-rulers, of the CIVITATIS IMPERIUM.

    In [4] when Orgetorix rounds up his FAMILIAM, to the tune of 10,000 men, he has called together his 10,000 vassals, as well as additional men who were his clients, dependents, or debtor-bondsmen (Source: Will Durant).

    Ginny
    October 13, 2004 - 02:51 pm
    Oh well done, Mippiana, and I am seeing him sent for one purpose and actually bringing about a coup!! Does anybody else see that? (I may be reading things into it that aren't there, isn't it AMAZING after our Latin 101 course how VIVID it is!!

    Justin
    October 13, 2004 - 04:46 pm
    Orgetorix was chosen to accomplish these things.
    He undertook a mission on his own to neighboring communities and persuaded (Casticus) to take royal power in his community as his father had before him.

    It looks to me as though Orgetorix thinks he can be king of the Helvettii and if he can persuade Casticus to take over the Sequani by a coup, he and Casticus can attack Gaul. One of the routes to Gaul is over the mountains and through the land of the Sequani.

    I read "deligitur" as 1st conjugation, passive voice, 3rd person singular. "He was chosen."

    I read "conficiendas" as a participial form- "achievement or accomplishment" as opposed to "accomplish"

    jane
    October 14, 2004 - 10:39 am
    Ginny just called me and she is having problems getting on with her ISP. She's talked to India and they promise the Supervisor will have it fixed within 24 hours. She'll be back as soon as she can.

    jane

    camicat
    October 15, 2004 - 02:25 pm
    Ginny: Translation: ITEMQUE DUMNORIGI HAEDUO,FRATRI DIVICIACI,QUI EO TEMPORE PRINCIPATUM IN CIVITATE OBTINEBAT AC MAXIME PLEBI ACCEPTUS ERAT, likewise he(Orgetorix) persuades the Haeduan Dumnorix,the brother of Diviacus, (Dumnorix) who in that time had the leadership of that (Haeduan)state and highly endorsed by the people, UT IDEM CONARETUR, PERSUADET, EIQUE FILIAM SUAM IN MATRIMONIUM DAT. that he (Dumnorix)should do the same thing (leave as the Helvetii intend) and give his daughter in marriage to him(Orgetorix). Camicat. PS a genuine marriage of convenience; would you ladies have gone through this today with similar circumstances?

    camicat
    October 16, 2004 - 08:22 pm
    Ginny: PERFACILE FACTU ESSE ILLIS PROBAT CONATA PERFICERE, /he tries to show that to accomplish these endeavors is rather easy to do,/ PROPTEREA QUOD IPSE SUAE CIVITATIS IMPERIUM OBTENTURUS ESSET; /because he was about to or intended to take over the command of his own state;/ NON ESSE DUBIUM ,QUIN TOTIUS GALLIAE PLURIMUM HELVETII POSSENT; /that there was no doubt that of all of Gaul they the Helvetians were able to the most (were the most powerful); SE SUIS COPIIS SUOQUE EXERCITU ILLIS REGNA CONCILIATURUM CONFIRMAT /he confirms to them that he would win over the (other)kingdoms by his abundant supplies and his army.[ I guess to do what he intends to do with the Helvetians-to exit]. Camicat. PS I found this part rather difficult.

    Ginny
    October 20, 2004 - 04:42 am
    I just love this passage, tho it doesn't seem to be one of the more famous or exciting bits, I love the understatement here!! Today I'm including some fabulous illustrations from an old Ullman Henry Latin II that a dear friend found for me at a book sale, I collect Latin texts (they also have a photo showing the actual route the Helvetians took!!), and it's chock full of Caesar!

    It's got quite a bit of background, I can't wait to delve into it, It has some fascinating photographs. It was printed in 1936, check out this WWI French soldier throwing a bomb, note the "shield, helmet and breastplate!" The text reads, "In the World War…" Bless their hearts.

    And here is something I can barely believe? It SAYS it's "An American Onager, intended for hurling bombs."

    This is obviously a photograph, can this be TRUE?

    The onager, according to Ullman Henry…. But let's hear it in the words of 1936, it's like stepping back into time:
    Soldier Wit and Slang: There is no mention in Caesar's pages of campfire jokes, the songs of his men on the march, and their home letters, and it is only rarely that the personal element enters into the narrative, but we know that the life of the soldier was changed but little since then. His language then was just as picturesque as now. You will recall such descriptive names as "tin hat" for steel helmet, "Big Bertha " for the long-range guns of the Germans, "pill boxes" for the enemy's machine gun shelters, and "No Man's Land" for the deadly strip between the opposing font-line trenches.

    An ancient writer tells us that the men of the Roman army, many of whom had been reared on farms in Italy, were fond of calling weapons and things about camp by the names of animals and objects with which they were familiar as country boys. The forked sticks on which Marius's solders carried the packs (sarcinae) were called "Marius' mules."

    A certain kind of ballista or machine for hurling heavy stones, was named onager "wild ass," from that animal's habit of flinging stones at its pursuers with its hind feet.






    And here, amazingly enough is a glans. "Lead slingshots have been picked up by the hundreds on some Roman battlefields. Many have letters or words on them. This one has feri or "strike," (i.e., the enemy).

    Fascinating, just fascinating!! More on the Latin text which itself, to me, is fascinating!

    Ginny
    October 20, 2004 - 05:45 am
    Justin, that's exactly the way I read it, also, that Orgetorix did think he could end up king of the whole country through this coup. I thought the coup (I am reading two coups and his own in the making) was breathtaking, the droll dispassionate way it was described.

    And also right, Camicat, on the marriage of convenience, there seemed to be a lot of that going on, remember Caesar's refusal to divorce his own wife? Not a good thing to be a woman back then unless you belonged to a powerful family and could cement alliances, (provided of course you were….how did they put it about the purity of Caesar's wife?) Above suspicion? .

    So Orgetorix, despite having been sent out by the Helvetians to establish peace and friendship with the surrounding states, actually formed (ironically enough, considering Caesar's own First Triumvirate with Pompey and Crassus) a Gallic Triumvirate with Dumnorix and Casticus, to whom he confided his own ambitions to be head of state, which of course was treason.

    Great job Camicat, well done! For the sake of those needing a word by word literal rendering, to aid understanding, here's a shot:
    itemque Dumnorigi Haeduo, fratri Diviciaci,
    Likewise Dumnorix the Haeduan, the brother of Diviacus

    qui eo tempore principatum in civitate obtinebat ac maxime plebi acceptus erat,
    Who at that time the leadership in his own state was obtaining and greatly by the common people had been accepted

    ut idem conaretur persuadet eique filiam suam in matrimonium dat.
    That the same thing he (Dumnorix) should try, Orgetorix persuaded him. And to him (Dumnorix) his (Orgatorix's) own daughter in marriage he (Org) gave.

    Perfacile factu esse illis probat conata perficere,
    Very easy to do to them he showed that the undertakings would (be) to accomplish

    propterea quod ipse suae civitatis imperium obtenturus esset:
    because he himself of his own state the leadership was about to obtain

    non esse dubium quin totius Galliae plurimum Helvetii possent;
    and there was no doubt that of all the Gauls the Helvetians were the [literally "the most!"] able

    se suis copiis suoque exercitu illis regna conciliaturum confirmat.
    and he with his own troops and his own army for them their regions would secure or win over, he confirmed.

    Yes that really is a difficult passage and actually that Perfacile is a BEAR!! And it's often left out of Latin II texts, because it's so hard. I myself had a hard time with probo. So it's especially fine to wrestle with it this morning, I've got a million dictionaries open here but I think I have it! Hahahaa The verb of course is at the end even tho you can tell as you read it it's Indirect Discourse or Statement…"he said that he…, and all those infinitives, still you are kept hanging and wondering till you get to the end. Love it. Consiliaturum is actually missing the esse, but is still an infinitive: the auxiliary is usually omitted in the future infinitive.

    I am actually amazed after spending 6 weeks in the Latin 101 how clear this is to me, usually Caesar is a bit of a trial, it looks pure as the driven snow, to me. And now onward to another twist.

    Our man Orgetorix, a persuasive orator, young, and brash, has made a mistake, let's see what brings him down.

    Any thoughts on any of the questions in the heading??

    camicat
    October 20, 2004 - 11:04 am
    Ginny, Translation: HAC ORATIONE ADDUCTI INTER SE FIDEM ET IUS IURANDUM DANT / having been influenced by these spoken words they give a sworn pledge to each other,/ ET REGNO OCCUPATO PER TRES POTENTISSIMOS AC FIRMISSIMOS POPULOS TOTIUS GALLIAE IMPERIO SESE POTIRI POSSE SPERANT. /and after their rule of government was seized by the three most powerful and sturdy tribes (the Helvetii,Sequanii,and the Haeduii) they hope that they themselves will be able to take over the command of all Gaul. Camicat

    moxiect
    October 20, 2004 - 04:02 pm
    Just to let you know I'm still about plugging around the Latin sentences. I get one or two words together and then get interupted and have to start from the beginning. I'm going to have to shut myself off to the world in order to get one sentence done. You haven't lost me.

    camicat
    October 21, 2004 - 05:07 pm
    Ginny, Translation: EA RES EST HELVETIIS PER INDICIUM ENUNTIATA./ this matter(of taking over governments) was made known to the Helvetians through evidence given by informers./ MORIBUS SUIS ORGETORIGEM EX VINCULIS CAUSAM DICERE COEGERUNT; / in accordance with their customs they compelled Orgetorix bound in chains to plead his case./ DAMNATUM POENAM SEQUI OPORTEBAT,UT IGNI CREMARETUR. / it would be necessary that a punishment follow one so condemned,that he be burned by fire;(a result clause,resulting from SO OR THUS CONDEMNED THAT THE RESULT WOULD BE THAT HE BE BURNED AT THE STAKE); Camicat

    Ginny
    October 23, 2004 - 01:53 pm
    Moxie, great, you need not do huge passages if you like, just do a phrase or two, glad you're still with us!

    Camicat, great job, so here Orgetorix has been informed on! So not everybody was enamored of his plan, apparently. Wonder how Caesar knew all this?

    Let's take a look at some of the grammar before we move on!

    factu there is kind of a problem: it's redundant, and the Supine, and its use is the Ablative of Specification connected with perfacile, that's quite a sentence there! Hahaha

    Multos annos of course is Accusative of Duration of time and obtenturus esset is the active periphrastic, which often indicates what somebody is going to or about to do.

    I love that ius iurandum in Camicat's passage, swear an oath, and of course regno occupato is the famous Ablative Absolute, which Caesar was famous for.

    Igni is the Ablative! Ignis is strange in that regard and often forms the Ablative with an i. Now the familiam coming up is going to be VERY important here, we need to watch what that means, Mippy has already given us a clue.

    Now does anybody have any questions on this part before we move on, anything that stumped you??

    I've been having such a good time reading this old Caesar text. Here are a few quotes from it:

  • Most men, if great at all, excel in one field only. Caesar excelled in three-statesmanship, war, and literature. Chateaubriand has pronounced him the "most complete man of all history."

  • Like Cromwell's, his military genius flowered late. It was not until he was forty-three years of age that he won the proud title of imperator by commanding troops in his own right in a major engagement.

  • As a military leader, Caesar ranks with such outstanding geniuses as Alexander, Hannibal and Napoleon.

  • Not until the close, apparently of the seven years of fighting in Gaul, did Caesar set himself to the task of composing his Commentarii Belli Gallici , not merely to enlighten the Roman reading public as to the extent and significance of his conquests in far-away Gaul, but to furnish to sober, unbiased historians of a later day the raw materials for writing an account of that epochal event. But his "Notebooks" (that is what the title Commentarii means) were so lucid in style and so full and unbiased in the treatment of facts that no historian has ever had the courage to rewrite them.

    (Interesting huh?)

  • It was Caesar who fixed the frontier of the Rhine.

    Thus the whole history of western Europe was profoundly affected by the Roman conquest of Gaul.

    Now here are some questions from 1939 for us all, what do we think?

  • 1. Was Rome, as the possessor of a superior culture, justified in imposing their civilization upon the primitive Gauls?

    2. What would have been the probable effect upon the history of western Europe if the Germans had conquered Gaul?

    3. Is our English speech the richer because of its Latin elements?
  • KleoP
    October 23, 2004 - 04:37 pm
    Egads! What a question:

    1. Was Rome, as the possessor of a superior culture, justified in imposing their civilization upon the primitive Gauls?

    This, of course, assumes that culture is dictated by material possessions, not just civilization is dictated by the material world surrounding humans, but their very identity as humans, their culture, is a function of their material world. Blech.

    Lol

    Kleo

    camicat
    October 23, 2004 - 07:32 pm
    Ginny, Translation: DIE CONSTITUTA CAUSAE DICTIONIS ORGETORIX AD IUDICIUM OMNEM SUAM FAMILIAM,AD HOMINUM MILIA DECEM ,UNDIQUE COEGIT,/ on the assigned day of pleading his case(cause) Orgetorix gathered to his trial from everywhere his whole household family numbering nearly ten thousand people,/ ET OMNES CLIENTES OBAERATOSQUE SUOS, QUORUM MAGNUM NUMERUM HABEBAT ,EODEM CONDUXIT;/ and led together at the same place all his subjects and debtors of whom he had a a great number;/ PER EOS NE CAUSAM DICERET,SE ERIPUIT. / through them he freed himself to not plead his cause./ Camicat

    Mippy
    October 24, 2004 - 07:55 am
    Ginny, first, thanks! for the grammar assist, as I'm struggling, of course. But, like crazy, learning Latin in wild jumps!
    Now some attempts at my opinions, not actually "answers":
    1. ... was Rome justified in imposing their (culture) on the...Gauls?
    I think it would have eventually happened, even without the superior generalship of Caesar, because other councils went out to the provinces with less noble goals, to "rape" them, (ref: C. McCullough, series of historical novels); during that process, a huge amount of culture and language "rubbed" off on the Gauls. In one passage, she says the Romans were pleasantly surprised to find some of the "primative" Gauls as fluent in Latin as in Greek. (Recall that the coast of Gaul and Spain had Greek settlements before the Romans invaded.)

    2. What would have been the ... effect upon the history of western Europe if the Germans had conquered Gaul?
    Not a remote chance, say I. The Romans superior cultural, government, and military institutions had to overwhelm the disorganized, albeit brave, Germans. It's like asking oneself, what would have happened if the U.S.S.R. had conquered the U.S.A.? Not in this (sci-fi)time-line!

    3. ... is English ... richer because of Latin elements?
    Rheatorical question (hahaha), Ginny-the-Latin-professor!
    Yes, yes, yes. Who's could dispute that ? ... non disputatum est ...

    4. (near the top of Ginny's post) How did Caesar know "that"?
    There is a marvelous section (again, McCullough) where the supreme commander in Gaul, the council Marius, allows his right-hand man, Sulla (who will become opponent and dictator in later years) to grow his hair long and live among the Gauls and spy on them! Sulla even had a Gaul wife who bore his children. Of course, McC. wrote historical fiction, but it's likely to be based on references she read, since all the battles and politics she writes about are accurate. Ergo, did Caesar have similar spies? What a novel that would make!

    moxiect
    October 24, 2004 - 10:22 am


    Hi Ginny! Believe it or Not, I actually got a translation done!

    Cum civitas ob eam rem incitata armis ius suum exequi conaretur multitudinemque hominum ex agris magistratus cogerent, Orgetorix mortuus est; neque abest suspicio, ut Helvetii arbitrantur, quin ipse sibi mortem consciverit.

    Together the citizens for the sake of demonstrating that the cause inspired them to shield that which is binding to themselves and their possessions made and effort to follow the man gathering according to magistrate territory, Orgetorix is dead; and not removed from suspicion, and the people of central Gaul witness the judgment and corpse sto that not person will feel guilty.

    Ginny
    October 25, 2004 - 11:45 am
    Oh lovely! This discussion has actually sparked some wonderful Sunday dinner table conversation, let's look at what you all have said.

    Now Kleo I have to copy yours entirely out here:
    Egads! What a question:
    1. Was Rome, as the possessor of a superior culture, justified in imposing their civilization upon the primitive Gauls?
    This, of course, assumes that culture is dictated by material possessions, not just civilization is dictated by the material world surrounding humans, but their very identity as humans, their culture, is a function of their material world. Blech.


    hahaah I think that Blech is becoming your trademark, hahaaa

    Why do you assume that Dr. Ullman's use of the term "superior culture" indicates material possessions? That's a fascinating viewpoint.

    I am fascinated, myself, by the question considering the date it was written, and what was happening in the world at the same time, myself.

    How can we compare the culture and civilization of the Romans at the time of Cicero and Caesar with that of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls? IS there any comparison? What is the definition OF "civilization?" Thank you for those provocative thoughts.

    Camicat, what an interesting passage, Orgetorix was very well connected, wasn't he, 10,000 strong. What do you suppose is meant by per eos he escaped? What happened here, I wonder? That's a LOT of people, and there were actually, if you look hard at it, MORE than 10,000. This was what was meant by familiam. His household is more like a medieval feudal system here. Lots of great grammar here.

    First let's look at Mippy, tho, Mippy, so glad you are picking stuff up! Amazing!

    Good point on the culture assimilation probably going to happen anyway, had not thought of that. Colleen McCullough is quite a scholar, not sure she is always recognized for that!

    I think the question on what would have happened if the Germans had conquered Gaul is directly related to the year this was written, in 1939. Actually the threat from the Germans was real to the Romans and eventually the Barbarians did break thru the Roman lines as we know. I agree with you, what a novel this would make, especially some of the stuff coming up!

    Moxie, well tried!! A good stab, let's look at this very subtle and dramatic section literally for those who want to see the structure:

    Cum civitas ob eam rem incitata
    When the state, by this thing aroused,

    armis ius suum exequi conaretur
    and by arms its right to secure attempted,

    multitudinemque hominum ex agris magistratus cogerent,
    And many men from the fields the magistrates had compelled

    Orgetorix mortuus est;
    Orgetorix died.

    neque abest suspicio,
    nor is lacking suspicion

    ut Helvetii arbitrantur,
    as the Helvetians thought,

    quin ipse sibi mortem consciverit.
    that he himself on himself death inflicted.


    Talk about understatement! That neque abest suspicio is called Litotes, it’s a way of saying there is a STRONG suspicion! Litotes is used (the word means "plainness,") in literature when you characterize something in mild language for rhetorical effect. Now then, on the rest of the questions in the heading,

  • Name one example of Caesar's use of the historical present? How do we translate it? OK the afore mentioned probat and confirmant are examples of Caesar's use of the Historical Present, the use of the present tense for the past, it's quite common nowadays and gives immediacy to the story, actually, but is never translated "is confirming" but rather is translated in the past.

    and
  • What kind of clause is ut igni cremaretur? OK ut igni cremaretur is an example of a Result Clause, you might call it a substantive Clause of Result.
    Well!! We're moving on here today with a new section, and things are definitely heating up, now why do you suppose Orgetorix was found dead? Why would he kill himself?!?

    Ok so he's gone so....the plan to migrate is gone too, right? Hahahaa

    Let's find out~!

    We'll take up our story with Chapter 5 and 6 today, we're moving right along. I'll past them in the heading and then let's try our hand at figuring out some of the marvelous grammar as well, we've got some wonderful stuff going on here!
  • camicat
    October 25, 2004 - 12:10 pm
    Ginny, Translation: CUM CIVITAS OB EAM REM INCITATA ARMIS IUS SUUM EXSEQUI CONARETUR, /when the state (of Orgetorix) incited because of this thing (of assemblying more than ten thousand people at his trial) tried to execute its right by arms (fighting),/ MULTITUDINEMQUE HOMINUM EX AGRIS MAGISTRATUS COGERENT /

    camicat
    October 25, 2004 - 12:35 pm
    Ginny, Translation: CUM CIVITAS OB EAM REM INCITATA ARMIS IUS SUUM EXSEQUI CONARETUR, /when the state (of Orgetorix) incited because of this thing (of assemblying more than ten thousand people at his trial) tried to execute its right by arms (fighting),/ MULTITUDINEMQUE HOMINUM EX AGRIS MAGISTRATUS COGERENT, ORGETORIX MORTUUS EST; / and(when) the authorities assembled a multitude of people from their lands,Orgetorix died;/ NEQUE ABEST SUSPICIO,UT HELVETII ARBITRANTUR,QUIN IPSE SIBI MORTEM CONSCIVERIT./ nor is suspicion absent(nor is it not suspected =it is suspected)that he decreed death upon himself. Camicat PS Moxiect, I admire your attempt at the translation; only, if you would translate word for word what the words individually mean and then give your insight, there would result a rather close translation. Great step two after skipping step one. I say this because I see geat potential in your insights.

    Mippy
    October 25, 2004 - 01:21 pm
    Quick thought here, before looking at the new section.
    The apparent suicide of Orgetorix was his only way "out" of his loss of face and honor in front of his 10,000 clients and followers.
    This just jumps off the page to sound like the suicide of Cato, the foe of Caesar in the Senate and on the battlefield. (Without citing exact references of Durant and McCullough), Cato had lead a huge number of troops rebelling against Caesar across Africa, but when victory was impossible, Cato could not live with the dishonor, and died at his own hand; the alternative might have been banishment from Rome, but that was not known, so Cato chose death.

    Here is indeed a comparison of the Gauls and the Romans, but whether it is "civilized" to die like that? who can say?

    And a DEFINITION of civilization? Ginny, didn't Will Durant take 10 or 11 volumes to attempt to do that? Can that be condensed into a paragraph here? Not by me.

    Mippy
    October 27, 2004 - 01:57 pm
    ... once again I grab "easy" questions, but I did wait 2 days ...

    Kalends is the Roman designation of the first day of each month; According to this source,

    http://classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.1.1

    the date of the expedition [end of 6] was 5 days before the kalends of April, year 58, or by their calculation, March 28th. Dates were designated before or after the three "benchmarks" or "nodes" of a month;
    the year 58 is the year of the councils Lucius Piso and Aulus Gabinius.

    "Ides" is the term for the middle of each month (beware the Ides ...), which was the 13th to 15th, depending on the length of the month.
    "Nones" is between the 5th and the 7th day, depending on the length of the month.
    (source: McCullough, First Man in Rome, p. 968)

    There were NOT weekends in ancient Rome.
    Before Caesar adjusted the Roman calendar, the catch-up to the lunar cycle was done by intercalating an extra 20 days after February every other year, but less often if the pontifices decided not to bother.

    Ginny
    October 28, 2004 - 04:17 pm
    Great work, Mippy, that's great research!

    I am wondering about that word civilization, here's what Webster's says:

    Main Entry: civ·i·li·za·tion
    Pronunciation: "si-v&-l&-'zA-sh&n
    Function: noun
    1 a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place
    2 : the process of becoming civilized
    3 a : refinement of thought, manners, or taste b : a situation of urban comfort


    Interesting. I think we would have to say that Rome in Caesar's day was certainly the first or a definition, when you think of Cicero and the philsophy he wrote, the mind boggles. I think I am in a minority in liking Caesar, but I REALLY like the way he writes, he's different from a lot of the other authors, for a lot of reasons and certainly was a great man, so it's interesting to read his somewhat dry ideas and conclusions.

    Look what I found! My husband was packing for a trip to North Dakota and wanted one of the roll aboards and out of it fell this!!

    This is a modern 2 Franc note from Switzerland in 2004, they're not on the Euro. Fascinating, isn't it!

    Ok who wants to try another line, phrase or clause??

    moxiect
    October 28, 2004 - 09:31 pm


    Hi Ginny, here I am again!

    Persuadent Rauracis et Tulingis et Latobrigis finitimis, uti eodem usi consilio oppidis suis vicisque exustis una cum iis proficiscantur, Boiosque, qui trans Rhenum incoluerant et in agrum Noricum transierant Noreiamque oppugnabant, receptos ad se socios sibi adsciscunt.

    Persuadent, Rauracis et Tulingis and Latabrigis are boarding towns that make use of the very same strategy of destroying their own possessions and together they all depart, Boiosque, who reside across the Rhine and also in the mist of the territory is Noricum, Noreiamque and his allies claim to have kept back the attack.

    Ginny
    November 2, 2004 - 05:24 pm
    moxie!! There you are! I wonder what on earth is wrong with my subscriptions, where are the rest of you?? Ollie Ollie OxenFreeee, this is NOT a class but a book club, are you all finding it too difficult? Too easy?? Let's look at a couple of passages today, if we can, we're getting to the good parts now.

    First, we've skipped one section and it's a good one!

    You recall that Orgetirox is dead, and they suspect perhaps suicide, so the plan is over, right? I love the subtlety here. No, they are going forward!!

    Here's a very literal translation for those trying to piece this together, is this the way you all see it?


    Post eius mortem

    After his death
    nihilo minus Helvetii id quod constituerant facere conantur,
    nevertheless, the Helvetians that which they had decided to do, they would try,
    ut e finibus suis exeant.
    that from their own borders they should go out.

    Ubi iam se ad eam rem paratos esse arbitrati sunt,
    When soon themselves for this thing prepared to be they thought,
    oppida sua omnia, numero ad duodecim,
    strongholds all their, in number about 12,
    vicos ad quadringentos,
    their villages, about 400,
    reliqua privata aedificia incendunt;
    and the rest of their private buildings they burned;
    frumentum omne, praeter quod secum portaturi erant, comburunt,
    all of the grain, except that which with them they were about to carry, they burned.
    ut domum reditionis spe sublata paratiores
    so that the hope (spe) of returning (reditionis) home (domum) having been removed (sublata)
    omnia pericula subeunda essent;
    all dangers to undergo they would be prepared.
    trium mensum molita cibaria
    a three months supply of food
    sibi quemque domo efferre iubent
    each one for himself to carry off they ordered


    Persuadent is they persuaded, but other than that, that's a very good attack on that, moxie!!

    I think this is a super day as we're waiting for the Election results, to do this and ponder the implications for the conquered peoples of Rome as far as citizenship. The museum at Koln (Cologne) of Roman antiquities is stunning and very fine and I of course had my photo chips stolen on my trip but want to tell you about one of the displays there ABOUT the Germans and Roman citizenship, very striking@

    Persuadent Rauracis et Tulingis et Latobrigis finitimis,
    They persuaded the Rauracis and the Tulingis and the Labrobriges, their neighbors,
    uti eodem usi consilio oppidis suis vicisque exustis
    that having used the same plan, their towns and villages having been burned,
    una cum iis proficiscantur,
    as one with them they should set out.
    Boiosque, qui trans Rhenum incoluerant
    and the Boios, who across the Rhine had lived
    <et in agrum Noricum transierant Noreiamque oppugnabant,
    and into the fields of the Noricum had attacked Noreia,
    receptos ad se socios sibi adsciscunt.
    they received to themselves as allies for themselves and they joined (them) with themselves.

    Tricky little buzzard and just CHOCK full of great grammar!!

    We have the wonderful Genitive of quality in trium mensium and I'm reading here in my own commentarii that it's been estimated that the amount of meal necessary for 263,000 persons for three months has "been estimated at 8,000 tons. Such a supply would require a continuous line of wagons stretching over twenty miles.." (Bennett).

    So this is quite some undertaking and they have literally burned their own bridges behind them so that they have nothing to go back home FOR, there's nothing left! They mean it, they're going on, wonder why? What theories do you have as to why they feel this compelling need to go on??

    And I found a photograph OF the very route, so will put that up soon, and we can see how Caesar's description compares to it!

    Who wants to try another line or two?

    Come on in, the water's fine!

    Ginny
    November 5, 2004 - 04:19 pm
    Some things of interest 11-5-04

    Just in case anyone is interested: tonight (Fri), The History Channel is showing two programs about Roman leaders. They are being shown at 8 and 9 p.m. At 8 p.m., "Julius Caesar", and right after that, "Caligula".

    patwest
    November 5, 2004 - 05:29 pm
    Tonight (Fri), The History Channel is showing two programs about Roman leaders. They are being shown at 7 and 8 p.m. (Central time). At 7 p.m., "Julius Caesar", and right after that, "Caligula".

    Ginny
    November 6, 2004 - 01:37 pm
    Thank you, Pat, did any of you see it? I thought it was so-- so.

    Mippy
    November 10, 2004 - 03:31 pm
    Erant omnino itera duo, quibus itineribus domo exire possent.

    Altogether, there were only 2 routes through which they could pass.
    possent: had or possessed, does this means they possessed the routes, or they had subdued the 2 routes?

    Ginny
    November 10, 2004 - 03:52 pm
    Well for heaven's sake, Mippy, I am amazed to find a Lain 101 student in here translating? Pardon me while my mouth gapes open well DONE! possent is actually the verb possum (no not the animal) it means be able, can, so would be translated through which they were able to go. See that "erant" there? haahah We just took that up!

    Mippy
    November 11, 2004 - 03:07 pm
    unum per Sequanos, angustum et difficile, inter montem Iuram et flumen Rhodanum,

    one (route) through the country of the Sequani, high and difficult, between Mt. Jura and the Rhone River ...