LONGITUDE:Angular distance East or West on the earth's surface,measured by the angle contained between the meridian of a particular place and some Prime Meridian,as that of Greenwich,England,and expressed either in degrees or by some corresponding difference in time. (Webster's New Universal unabridged Dictionary[1996]....What a "dry" defintion for a scientific discovery that had all the elements of a modern detective novel. Other elements include,political intrigue,greed,the lust for fame,and dogged perserverance.

I've got the book!!! And with that definition under my belt, I feel as though I've started reading it

Best

LJ

Did you all know there's a wonderful, illustrated version of the book? Unfortunately, it's not cheap like the paperback of the original, but it might be fun to look at some time. I have ordered it, just for the experience.

Ginny

Hi Ginny,

I see you're back and in "Full Flight".

Wrlcome home

Best

LJ

Thanks, LJ, I'm here but not in any kind of flight! We had a ball, and of course, discussed BOOKS!! We missed you all, too, maybe next year!

Nothing as good as a good book. Have got lots to tell all, but must rush for the holidays for a bit. It'll keep, it just keeps getting better and better!! hahahahah

Ginny

The Author.Sobel,mentions that the placement of the Prime meridian is a purely poltical decision. There was some dissent about this decision particularly from the French (of course). i WONDER HOW THE PRESENT DAY POLITICAL DECISION ABOUT THE EURO ,WILL APPEAR TO FUTURE HISTORIANS.

I'll keep that in mind as I read Ed. Right now you're a bit ahead of me.

Best

LJ

Hi All; Just started reading "Longitude" and am really enjoying it.Can't wait to hear your input on this one.

Who finds these great books anyway?

I'm proud to learn that Dava Sobel is a Long Islander. Wouldn't it be nice to get her to join us in our discussion or at least be aware that we're discussing her book? I see her name listed in the Suffolk County white pages...ED: Would you like to give her a call?

If you get a chance to see the Nova presentation of this, do so. She is one of the commentators. Nova did it very well, part dramatization, part comments.

Jackie; Any idea when the Nova presentation will be aired again? Can't find any mention of it in the locals papers.

Walter: When I get my 'puter back, I'll go surfing on the Nova site. For now, I'm just checking in daily to see who said what in B & L, courtesy of my son's MAC.

Walter: NOVA apparently doesn't set the schedule for its rebroadcasts. The NOVA net site directed me to my local PBS channel for its rebroadcast information. Sorry.

Jackie; Caught "Longitude" on our local public TV channel last week quite by accident and was happy to be able to put a face with the name of our author,Dava Sobel.

Interesting show but since I've finished the book, I was looking for much more.Looking foward to some great analysis by you folks on this wonderful read.

My husband was very interested in the C-span interview of this author and is interested in the subject. I wish I could get him to read the book with all of you. He used to read a lot when younger, but says it is hard to concentrate on it anymore.

I'm going to read it and will be here with you. It sounded fascinating to me.

Walter: Seeing Nova's presentation before I read the book allowed me simply to enjoy it. Beautifully photographed. It held our attention. As I'm reading, I can appreciate your point about the content being lean. Somehow my standards are changing, and I am seeking more depth. After Deacon, I'm spoiled.

Some questions for consideration: (1) The relationship between poltical imperatives & scientific discoveries. (2) Competition among scientists to be the "first" with a discovery or invention. (3) Do you think that money or national pride is a motivating force behind scientific discovery?

I liked Longitude -- it was something I had always taken for granted (that England would have been the site for the prime meridian, etc.)

Now however, a good while after reading, I begin to wonder... Do any of you ever have serious doubts about the truthfulness of books like "Longitude"? Since I don't know anything for myself, from primary sources, I am dependent on the goodwill/competence of the author in feeding me the historical facts. For all I know, the book itself could be totally political and altogether divorced from the historical truth.

These disturbing thoughts began popping about in my head while finishing one of Colleeen McCullough's later books about the decline and fall of republican Rome. The letter from Pompey to the Senate, e.g.,-- is it real, or what McCullough THINKS Pompey would have written if he HAD written (if you know what I mean.) Leads me to wonder whether or not we should require some sort of "Surgeon General"'s statement on a book: "Warning, the facts contained in the book may bear no correspondence to the historical truths discussed in the text."

Pretty ridiculous, but, how much do we take on pure faith? I don't have time to validate other peoples research, but I hate to accept it blindly, on the other hand...

Hi Tom: Dava Sobel is a very serious writer & investigator..She used to write for New York Times and Longitude was an outgrowth of a seminar that she attended ,and an article that she wrote for Harvard Magazine.... I have seen her interviewed by Brian Lamb on C-Span and she is a totally honest reporter... I understand what you mean about historical fiction,but that is what it is>>FICTION...On the other hand,scientific reporting would have some facts to go on...Hope you join in for more discussion.

Tom: I think your observations are absolutely on target and I think your "Surgeon General"idea is super but I don't think it would play very well with the authors.

"Revisionist"history has always been a concern to me ever since college where I frequently found myself reading three,four or more conflicting analysis of the same event and the reports we're fed today by the media are no different.Just look at the way the Clinton scandel played out.

In reading "The Professor",however,I didn't get the feeling that Sobel was revising history but I'm sure that even she would agree with you that,try as they may,scholars today can only approximate the truth in most cases.Now...when they deliberatly set out to mislead us or rewrite history...that's another story!

Wow!! Am just sticking my head round the corner into your Men's Study here by the fire to say that Tom's inquiry about Pompey caused me to have a wonderful afternoon with Plutarch rereading the life of Pompey.

Of course, Plutarch was condemned for only spreading gossip, and his intent was more personal and moral than the recitation of facts: he sometimes on some subjects got his facts and figures conflicted. Yet, it's clear that Pompey wrote several letters during his career to the Senate: I've not read McCullers's book, Tom, can you say which period in Pompey's life we are looking at when he wrote the letter to the senate?

I do have McCullers's first book, The First Man in Rome (or is it "Last,)" and for some reason, have not read it. Do you recommend her histories? I know she is a great writer, but I can see where you'd question her statements.: that was a long time ago and all the witnesses are dead. Or are they? Shakespeare used Plutarch, maybe McCullers uses Pliny? Does she say?

Ed: is Longitude "historical fiction?" I would suspect McCullers writes fiction?

What will history make of Bill Clinton? Will it depend upon who interviews whom? They say that in the "history" of every accident, you get several conflicting stories by eye witnesses, so who can write the definitive history?

I agree with Walter: the "Surgeon General's " thing is wonderful: Who Do you Trust?

Ginny

Thanks to all for helping me clarify my thoughts (a bit). Sometimes I feel like the fellow who said "How do I know what I think unless I hear what I say?"

Ed, right. I didn't really mean to accuse Sobel of revisionism (Walter, thank you for that word -- it is a good one and just what I meant, but it had escaped me.) I was thinking more of the broader point. I remember reading somewhere that Shakespear, in writing Richard the Third, for example, was trying to please Elizabeth Tudor (in addition to all the other things he was trying to do.) Thus he painted Richard as a real monster, knowing that she would appreciate that. Perhaps true, and if so, real "revisionism." But along that line, what bothers me is the loss of objectivity that comes as the result of personal perceptions that may or may not be valid, but of which the author may not even be aware. (Does that make sense?)

...and as was pointed out, the "spin" put on facts can have a trememdous influence on how events are perceived. Guess I need to do some more thinking about that one.

Ginny: Yes, I enjoyed the McCullough books once I came to grips with the fact that she strongly resists writing complete declarative sentences in a lot of instances. (She has a liking for writing sentences such as: "Which was what he wanted anyway.") Drives me crazy (Okay, I'm anal retentive) but aside from that, I enjoyed them.

I keep getting thrown off. Maybe the internet gods are trying to tell me something. "Which is a good reason to sign off."

Hi: No way is Longitude historical fiction..

Tom: Interesting point about historical objectivity. A question:Is all historical research and writing "revisionist"?

Don't we all bring our own backgrounds to what we read..If objectivity threads through reality whose reality applies?

The Prime Meridian was established by scientific convention and acceptance..This is an example of what I call the "collective reality" .We all have to agree to accept certain concepts ,principles,and maybe even scientific truths (whatever that is)in order to have a somewhat cohesive society.

Ed:

I like your point about society agreeing to accept certain concepts, principles, etc. in order to have an ordered society. Thinking about it, I guess that would be one way to define a civilization, or better yet, perhaps a culture, wouldn't it? A group that has (at least tacitly) agreed to accept, etc., etc.

That has some interesting applications to the "culture war" that some of the pundits say we as a nation are engaged in at present, doesn't it? But going down that road takes us pretty far afield from Longitude. I didn't mean to pull the discussion so far off track... (But it gives me something to mull over, anyway.)

Tom: That is one thing I enjoy about these discussions. We do go afield, but what we are talking about is the result of our thinking about the author's viewpoint, words, etc. We have gone from the prime meridian to Rome. Not bad. Also, we've hit on elements that weld together a civilization, a culture, etc. Particularly relevant today; the US occupies the world leadership position that formerly was Britain's. And had belonged to Rome. Not so far afield, at all.

I don't want to get into the subject of revisionist history, but wanted to say Longitude was my favorite book of 1997. I found it in a shop in Melbourne, Australia and read it while traveling. Since then I've read it aloud with a group of friends when we spent a quiet weekend at a beach house. I've since visited the Observatory in Greenwich, England to view the clocks. They use her material in their displays and explanation of the history, and also sell many of her books. So the Brits think she knew what she was writing about. I especially like the little poems at the beginning of each chapter and her beautiful prose as she introduces the next step in the process. Ruth

Ruth, I've not been to Greenwich, would it be a "must" that I should see in place, of, say, Knole, which I also have not visited?

Glad I'm reading the book first.

Ginny

Hi; What is a "going train",see par 2,pg 77?

Ginny, I'd say both Knole and Greenwich Observatory are well worth the time. I hope you will not have to chose between the two. In Greenwich there are many other things to see besides Harrisons clocks, and they are gearing up for the millenium with a fantastic new building. I went specifically to see the clocks this last time as I had read Longitude and liked it so much. Ruth

Hi:I especially like the opening paragraph of Chapter 4." Time is to clock as mind is to brain. The clock or watch somehow contains the time. And yet time refuses to be bottled up like a genie stuffed in a lamp."

Now a challenge. What is time? We can measure time,we can observe the passage of time ,but what is it?

Ed: I read somewhere that time is the measure of change. A physicist means by that (I think) the slow and inexorable "running down" of the universe, atom by atom. The night-day cycle does just fine for my purposes... I guess that's the best definition I have seen: "the measure of change." It seems to work on all scales from the personal to the scientific. Its kind of good to think about: if there's change happening, is it good or bad and what need I/can I do to take advantage of it or minimize its effect? On the other point, if there are any scientists out there, don't feel bad about telling me I'm wrong about the scientific part.

WALTER: going train is the gear train for moving the hands of a timepiece or giving some other visual indication of the time...Also, I found cross references to dial train (moves the hour & minute dials)and also striking train....It's incredible that this time piece (H-1)still runs & is wound daily.

TOM:Time is one of those fascinating subjects,that to me,has no absolutes of either correct or incorrect. I think this is one of those "perception" ideas..How about, if you can travel fast enough in weightless space,the aging process slows down?..Is there a relationship between gravity and time??

Ed; Thanx for that great information about "going train","dial train" and "striking train".I too,am impressed that Harrison's work is still operative and and I'm definetly including a trip to Greenwich next time we make it to London.

Speaking of quality craftsmanship...we just took a very beautiful old, sick,"Seth Thomas" mantle clock to a repair shop for a diagnosis.They said the needed parts were not replaceable so they ripped out the works and substituted a quartz chip about the size of a half dollar.The clock runs fine but we lost the beautiful chimes! So much for progress!

With regard to your comments to Tom about time...wasn't it Einstein who said that the faster you travel in space and as you approach the speed of light, the smaller you get til...voila...you just disappear when you hit 186,000 miles per sec.?

Walter:

Sort of like the (now extinct) dodo bird?

(Ever-decreasing concentric circles...)

On a more serious note... You guys got me checking on time theories. Special relativity holds that one cannot make a valid statement about the time an event happens unless it addresses also where the event happens. For example: imagine an observer who is very close to one star (the sun will do) and very far from another (pick an other star) and sees an event which appears to him to be happening at the same time on both stars. It took the light from the farther star (much) more time to reach the observer than it did from the closer star. So what seems to him to be happening at the same time on both stars actually happened (much) earlier on the farther of the two stars.

If another observer is closer to the OTHER star, he will perceive the events very differently. Thus, it is impossible to make an absolute statement about time without identifying location also.

Walter: you were right about the speed of light effecting mass. The only difference is, the mass increases as the speed of light is approached until at the speed of light the mass is infinite! Great, huh?

Hi: The last paragraph on page 87 is rather interesting,as it regards Wm Hogarth and the Longitude problem (as Hogarth portrayed it in his works The Rakes Progress and later in Analysis of Beauty).

This is a great example of the tangential findings that are discovered in all books.

Ed; Sorry I can't comment on the last par.on Pg.87.I loaned my copy of "Longitude "to a friend yesterday (which means I'll never see it again!) and I'm winging it from here on out.

You're right about tangential information.That's what I like about these SN discussions,they call my attention to stuff that I'd normally overlook as I speed thru a book.Now,I find myself reading much more slowly and thoughtfully.

This is a book that cries for illistrations. Ginny, how do you like the one you bought? I was finishing this one as I was starting Zarafa, where I was surprised to see an acknowledgement to Dava Sobel! (No mention of Longitude.) So many threads have to be reinterpreted in the light of this book. The explorer Cabeza de Vaca (1527) set off on a journey to the North American mainland, endured a hurricane, was ship wrecked, lost, stumbled around Texas for 10 years before he found his way to Mexico. Makes much more sense now I know that it was impossible to determine location accurately. I will have to read Patrick O'Brien more carefully now. I have always assumed that accurate navigation was possible, the only unknowns being the lay of the land.

Jackie: thanks for your comments.There are so many things that we take for granted,like finding our way back home. Has anyone out there ever been truly lost?? I remember once driving on a lonely road in New Mexico,surrounded by towering red rocks and feeling very insecure about getting back to someplace familiar.

Another tense moment was once we were with a friend in a small motor boat going in and out of fjords off the coast of Vancouver Island,and we got lost trying to get back to the correct fjord so that we could get home..It was starting to get late in the day and a feeling of panic was upon us,when we saw some people anchored and fishing & we pulled up alongside, said Hi ,we're lost can you direct us to the correct waterway to get back to Maderia Park,because by that time every tree and mountain looked the same. Fortunately,we made it back without having to call the Canadian Coast Guard..

Jackie and Ed:

You got me thinking about being lost. Now with the Global Positioning Satellite technology anybody with $150 can identify within a meter or less exactly where on the face of the globe he or she is.

In a way, it seems better to me not to take the mystery out of everything. If you can't get lost it takes the edge off of an adventure somehow, doesn't it?

I'm reminded of G K Chesterton and his story about the two kids who got their wish. One wanted to be gigantic. He strode across the English Channel in three steps, walked to Siberia where he had lunch, then around the remainder of the globe and was back in England that evening. In a week he had been everywhere, seen everything, and was bored terribly. The other chose to be tiny, only an inch high. He walked out his front door and fell into his front yard and had innumerable adventures with strange monsters like grasshoppers and beetles and climbed marvellous wisteria vines that took him halfway to the stars, as he thought. He lived happily ever after!

Think of the thrill Captain Cook felt as he worked his way around the globe. He had the adventure (literally) of his lifetime, while the 747 Pilot on his way over the pole on his way to Tokyo is bored to death...

Let's go get lost and have some excitement!

If you are reading A Walk in the Woods, Bryson relates how modern technology is bringing people into the wilderness who don't have good sense but they bristle with gizmos. Like using GPS to tell you your exact longitude and latitude, but neglecting to bring a map! Isn't it interesting how all these books interconnect?

Jackie: Yes! We are talking about Longitude; one of the books nominated for discussion is Einstein's Dreams (speculation about alternate universes in which time might function differently) and Theresa has been reading One Hundred Years of Solitude, in which the author is playing with time as a device to set up the story. I expect Brigadoon will come on the television next...

"The Island of the Day Before" by Umberto Eco is a recent fiction book about the longitude problem. I read this in my book group last year. This is the man who wrote "The Name of the Rose." It is pretty far out in style. I enjoyed it especially for the insight into the mindset of the time, and not just as regards the longitude problem. Has anyone read it? This is my first posting to the Books & Lit Roundtable.

Hazel, Welcome, welcome!! We are so delighted to have you here, and hope you'll look around and join in all of our discussions!

No, I haven't read Eco's book, I still haven't read The Name of the Rose or his other one.

And your F2F (face to face) Book Club read it! We love people here who also participate in other book groups, we like to keep up, if possible, with everything they do.

Now, is Eco's new book full again of untranslated Latin? If so, what was everyone's response? Should we be reading it as a companion to this discussion? I greatly regret that I was not able to enter in to this discussion as the Book Club Online and the Horrendous Hans of The Magic Mountain devoured all my energy, and I've got the illustrated copy of Longitude , too.

I welcome you here into our fellowship of True Readers (sounds like something from the old Andy Griffith Show, doesn't it) and hope you'll stay a long time!

Ginny

Hi, Hazel, and welcome. I think I read Eco's Rose, but then maybe I didn't. Hard to remember all the books. Tell me more about this one. I'm reading one now, historical fiction with a mystery. By Iain Pears, it is The Instance of the Fingerpost. Takes place in Oxford in 1663, before the great fire. The casual descriptions of how people lived are fascinating. The same events are being described by four different participants, one of whom is a Venetian Gentleman who dabbles in medicine (dealing with patients iw too much like Trade). I will look up Eco's Island. Thanks for the recommendation. I invite you to drop in to our Women's discussion; we will be choosing our next book soon.

Hazel: What did you think of the Eco book? I loved The Name of the Rose and grabbed his next one with anticipation, but was put off a bit by it. It would be nice to (have another good book to look forward to, but also) know that Eco is not just a "one book wonder."

Its interesting that he also addressed the longitude problem -- I would assume that he had at least begun his book before Longitude hit the market. ...another incidence of the inter-relatedness that Jackie mentioned. Is it just that so many people are writing books now-a-days that the law of averages requires that at least a handful of them share a common thread?

Hi Hazel: Welcome to the discussion. I have not read the Eco book,but now I will.

Interesting segment on page 99 about how the Board Of Longitude openly endorsed the lunar distance menthod,but Harrison's "ticking box" was labeled preposterous,and that in an earlier era Harrison might be accused of witchcraft.

Do any recent events stand out to anyone where one person stands up to the accepted wisdom and is eventually proven correct?

Ginny, Jackie, Ed Tom ... Thanks you all for your welcomes. About "Island of the Day Before" ... it is long, unusual narrative style, lots of fascinating information. Fact-based fiction. An unusual type of historical fiction. I liked it. If you read Eco's "Rose," and liked the byways as much as the narrative, perhaps you would like this. ... Yes, I thought it amazing that this book and Dava Sobel's should come out at the same time. I want to see her illustrated book. I enjoyed her Booknotes interview. NONFICTION I am reading now is "The Word According to Eve: Women and the Bible in Ancient Times and Our Own" by Cullen Murphy. Ah, I see this message box is cutting me off. Aargh!

Hazel, Just keep typing and your message will scroll down in the message box. As you get to the line below what goes into the message box you will see the scroll bar on the right of the message box become active.

Larry