We have a quorum, many thanks to you all!

"When the world is storm-driven and the bad that happens and the worse that threatens are so urgent as to shut out everything else from view, then we need to know all the strong fortresses of the spirit which men have built through the ages ..."

A most cordial WELCOME to

ATHENA2 and GRAMMUZZY. I am delighted that you plan on joining us and look forward to a free-wheeling discussion.

"... By race we are connected with the Norse; our culture goes back to the Greeks. Norse mythology and Greek mythology together give a clear picture of what the people were like from whom comes a major part of our spiritual and intellectual inheritance."

Candace said: The Joseph Campbell series on PBS was fascinating

If there is a quiet moment or two over the next week, do dip into
Hamilton -- the myths are truly fascinating!

In my earlier post, now lost in my computer's infamous black hole, I had indicated how I plan to lead our discussion, which I see more like a leisurely stroll, a joint journey, one we may have taken before, or parts thereof, with sign-posts we remember and can now identify more clearly.

I shall return ...

Marcus Tullius Cicero is one of my favorite characters in the historical novels I've read. Note that he was council as well as orator and famous author. Apparently the so-called transcripts from his court proceedings were heavily edited, not the original speeches. But of course that's just like our American Congressional Record. Nothing changes!

More to follow.

The Introduction is important because it reflects Hamilton's personal view, one that was prevalent at her time. We need to check whether that view is still pevalent now or whether there are different conceptions. Then it's on to Parts I and II.

He enjoyed everything about the voyage, never mentioned seasickness, his or anyone else's. When our daughter and I sailed only a few months later, the sea was turbulent from the start, the voyage rough. Everyone on board was affected in one way or another. I found myself ministering not only to my seasick child but others in need. It is impossible to describe the flood of relief everyone felt when the Statue of Liberty came into view.

It will be interesting to get to the Greek gods. I look forward to it.

WISHING YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY, HEALTHY NEW YEAR

Indeed, those two works were written (as can best be determined) during the Greek Middle Ages (roughly 1100-700 B.C.) and evolved from a long oral traditional which Homer supposedly transcribed. His single authorship is sometimes disputed.

Hamilton relies on other authors as well, other Greeks, such as Hesiod, Pindar, Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides, and Romans such as Ovid, Virgil and Apollodorus. It is hardly a surprise that the stories are at times radically different. Undisputed is the fact that the Romans, too busy with military matters, adopted much of Greek culture and art, wholesale.

So much for the introduction. I am sorry this is long, but I thought it necessary.

I invite your questions and reactions. The next step will be an overview of Part I, The Creation and the Gods.

The Trojan War was doubtless one of the most tragic events in human history, and one that is not a mere legend but has a basis in fact: Troy existed, as Heinrich Schliemann's archeological explorations have proven.

However, some of the myths were collected thoughts (no named author)about what caused rain, thunder, and storms. Hamilton notes (also p. 13) that Zeus was once a rain god. Praying for rain during the dry summers in the Mediterranean countries would not be unusual. But she says Zeus was "not a fact of nature." If you supplicate a "god", isn't that almost religion?

Hamilton does reiterate that myths are literature as well as science, but, IMO, they are also religion as well as "natural" science, and of course -- to us -- they are literature. I do not think they were literature at the time of their creation.

Free will has been mentioned here yesterday in conjunction with fate. But how are these two forces inextricably intertwined? When does one become or meld into the other? Isn't the prospect rather remote on the basis of the myths themselves?

Take the story of Oedipus (pp. 356-363) as one example: The king of Thebes, forewarned that his son will one day kill him, takes every step and precaution imaginable to avert that fate, yet it comes to pass years later anyhow, when the two meet and do not recognize one another.

During WW II we puzzled about that a great deal and had endless late-night discussions in darkened, smoke-filled rooms. I remember that eventually the different views met somewhere in an approximate middle. (That's for another session.)

Let's check on the Oracle of Delphi (qv) now, a famous place of international renown, we would call it now, where Orestes, and Perseus and Hercules visited to learn their fate from a priestess in trance. Many people on the planet today believe in seers, in cartomancy, numerology etc., eager to learn what fate has in store for them.

Your thoughts?

STIGLER, my thoughts are with you and the card is on its way.

I do not have this book but found you listed in the "Culture" folder and so was just reading annnnnnnd learning from all of you wonderful posters. What a treat!

And, Pan, the god of music. Yes, the Pipes of Pan with the satyr playing the pipes. Where does that come from?? Well, I looked it up and here's the myth about Pan, the satyr. Pan, the Satyr

Said in this brief bio:

So someone wanted to know who he was and I found this "Pan was the god of green fields and the guardian of the shepherds." While Apollo was the God of Music.

This might be a good site to bookmark.

Neither was visible when I posted a reply just now, when I finally have time.. But I had printed both posts earlier and knew they were there.

Checking my last post for typos, I saw that both # 155 and #116 are there now.

MAL, in par. 2 of your # 116 you addressed me directly, though without name, saying

"Second: I think it should be stated that these are not "classes"; they're in-depth discussions of books. All of us, including the facilitator, benefit from the give and take and camaradery that occurs here in Books and Lit."

This is my reply: At no time was it ever "stated" that this is a class, in fact, I have gone to greath lengths to say that there is no firm schedule, nor are there assignments.

We are in complete agreement as to what we are all about here in SN.org and the parameters by which we operate. Frankly, par. 2 of your post baffled me.

Please keep your replies coming!

While I am typing this, a new question regarding religion has occurred to me : Did the Greek gods have any spiritual attributes - or inspire same beyond the practical aspects of daily existence?

It is found in the Nibelungenlied , a medieval epic poem in four-line stanzas, which has been called "the German Iliad". The hero is Siegfried who slew the fierce dragon Fafnir and bathed in the slain dragon's blood. That made Siegfried's skin horny and entirely invulnerable -- except for a small spot on his back where an oak leaf had fallen. It became Siegfried's "Achilles Heel".

More later.

TIGER TOM, I will get back to your post.

My son was here, cleared my long driveway and put ice-melting pellets on it. A delayed Christmas gathering is to take place this afternoon, but I have serious qualms about driving there since it is now heavily sleeting.

Thank you, all.

In The Life of Greece Will Durant says in Chapter VIII , "The Gods of Greece", on Page 175 that "under the polite and general worship of the remote Olympians lay the intenser cults of local deities and powers who served no vassalage to Zeus. Tribal and political deities separatism nourished polytheism, and monotheism impossible."

He goes on to say each family had its own god, and the sharing of food (holy communion) "was the basic and primary act of religion in the home." Birth, marriage and death "were sanctified into sacraments by ancient ritual before the sacred fire, and in this way religion suffused a mystic poetry and a stabilizing solemnity over the elemental events of life."

He states in the subtopic, "Religon and Morals" (Page 200), "At first sight Greek religion does not seem to have been a major influence for morality. It was in origin a system of magic rather than of ethics, and remained so, in large measure, to the end; correct ritual received more emphasis than good conduct, and the gods themselves on Olympus or on earth, had not been exemplars of honesty, chastity, or gentleness. . . . Neverthless, in the more vital moral relations Greek religion came subtly to the aid of the race and the state."

There was the purification ritual, which "served as a stimulating symbol of moral hygiene." Durant continues, "Through the worship of the dead, the generations were bound together in a stabilizing continuity of obligations" in a way that there was "a holy union and sequence of blood and fire stretching far into the past and the future, and holding the dead, the living, and the unborn in a sacred unity stronger than any state."

Religion and patriotism were "bound together in a thousand impressive rites; the god or goddess most revered in public ceremony represented the apotheosis of the city; every law, every meeting of the assembly or the courts, every mjor enterprise of the army or the government; every school and university; every economic or political association ws surrounded with religious cermony and invocation."

Durant states on Page 202 that Pindar, Aeschylus, Sophocles "poured ethical fervor or insight into the Olympian creed." Pheidias "ennobled the gods with beauty and majesty; Pythagoras and Plato "associated philosophy with religion and supported the doctrine of immortality."

However, "Pythagoras doubted, Socrates ignored, Democritus denied, Euripides ridiculed the gods, and in the end Greek philosophy, hardly willing it, destroyed the religion that had molded the moral life of Greece."

JUDY, I'll comment on your post in a separate post --- when I am going on so long, I have reason to fear AOL may have cut me off before I even know it !!

Vita brevis = life is short, so let's make the most of the time we have here in t his folder.

Appreciatively, T.

Any word or phrase, irrespective of its linguistic provenance, should be used correctly. As you know, that has been my preoccupation, my vocation, my passion all my life.

Thanks for your good wishes. T

Tantalus was punished for his crime. His crime was not one of wanting to be like the Gods, or one of thinking he was equal to the Gods. Tantalus' crime was in thinking he was better than the Gods in that he was allowed to eat with the Gods, but that wasn't good enough for him, he thought he could trick the Gods as if he had abilities superior to theirs. His punishment by Zeus was to be forever in Hades with food and drink nearby but just - agonizingly, tantalizingly - out of reach.

The descendants of Tantalus are afflicted with the same fault, of wanting more than their due, or as Rodney Dangerfield said of himself "I don't get no respect." Enough is never enough for the descendants of Tantalus, such as Agamemnon 'the magnificent hollow man' (Brann), and that is their great flaw (along with the coldness to sacrifice others for their personal cause and never themselves).

Marvelle

PART FOUR describes the Judgment of Paris and the Trojan War, and goes on beyond the Fall of Troy, unlike the Iliad, which ends with Hector's death. There's much reading excitement ahead.

I am glad to hear you have a more recent reprint of The Greek Way . My copy of it, and also of The Roman Way and The Echo of Greece are hardcovers from a time when the size of print was not yet a serious concern for me, or for any of us, I daresay.

Fortunately many of the paperback publishers have turned away from the small, pale print used during the sixties, seventies and even beyond. That is a good thing for thousands upon thousands of readers who appreciate this trend. My 1998 copy of Mythology is an excellent example.

This morning I find myself wondering about Orpheus and Eurydice, to me one of the most haunting myths. Many years ago, when we lived in suburban Virginia and I worked in Washington, I saw a film made in Brazil- I recall- in Portuguese, with English subtitles, which was quite simply extraordinary. I have never forgotten this extraordinary film and the impact it had on me. Profound lessons ...

Contrary to the instructions, Orpheys turned around - not out of insatiable curiosity (like Niobe, for one) - but to make sure Eurydice was behind him as they climbed out of Hades. Alas, too soon. She was still in the gray darkness, only he was free in the light. Free, but alone !

If this tale is too gloomy on a gloomy day like this, the story of Baucis and Philemon is much lighter, even rewarding, in the literal sense of the word.

As always, happy reading.

Regarding the last posts, all of you have a valid point. I believe we have "got" the message, and that is that since the advent of oral (and later recorded) history and tradition, human nature, man's reaction, instincts, needs and desires, passions, his basic loneliness - all are unchanged.

As I tried to say from the outset, there really is nothing new under the sun where man's emotions are concerned. The old tales were re-told over time in various ways, but perhaps with an increasingly deeper understanding and greater ability for expression and, not to forget, with modern adaptations.

As one example, think of Eugene O'Neill's Mourning Becomes Electra , a trilogy based on the Oresteia but set in stark New England. Variations on the same themes... just as in music.

TIGER TOM's and GOSSET's examples demonstrate just how close to the edge we are in life, always, at every moment.

Later in the day I'd like to add another thought or two on the subject of love and beauty in Mythology before we "get into" the story of the Golden Fleece.

Thank you all.

GramMuzzy, the Lorena Babbit mention is rather inspired! I had forgotten all about it - and it was in Virginia too, I now recall.

It proves what I posited before, there is nothing new in human nature.

JASON was not a hero in my opinion either; it surprises me that Hamilton classifies him as one. The ONLY good thing that can be said about him is that he charged ahead and was not a coward. But that hardly qualifies him as a hero.

Which brings us to the oft-told tale of heroes. The archetype is a young man of humble birth, growing up in poverty, sometimes without a father, and without promise, who sets out to discover the possibility of a noble parent and seeks to claim his due. He reaches the destination; is subjected to a series of "tests" to prove his worthiness; and finally gets the reward : the newly discovered father's throne, or the hand of a princess in marriage.

Variations to the theme abound, but Odysseus, the quintessential, immortal hero of the heroic quest does NOT quite fit this archetype. We'll get to him later.

We also have to delve more deeply into Medea.

It isn't too early to begin consideing the influence of beauty, hospitality, heroism and love on ART.

You bring up an important point, a sore point in our world, and who hasn't heard about such cases, or even saw one threatening to develop?

For a woman to act purely out of spite and the burning desire to wound her children's father in revenge, by using them as a pawn and a weapon, is unconscionable. The children are the victims, scarred forever.

Thank you for writing.

From the actions of Medea we should NOT conclude that all Greek mothers were then, or are now, like her, any more than Andrea and Susan are representative of American mothers. Heaven forfend!

SCAMPER, may I briefly explain: my first computer came with AOL already built in. The year was 1994. For three months I used it solely for its WP features (I was newsletter editor of my AAUW branch and unhappy with my IBM Selectric and the difficulties to put in the correcting tape). I had no "higher aspirations" at that time.

Then mypractical computer friend Connie told me what I was missing. She connected me to the net. The scales fell from my eyes, EUREKA! A new day had dawned. Cable connections were not known then.

And I discovered AOL's seniornet. That is where I met GramMuzzy; she headed the Book Group there and still does. We've been friends ever since. I truly thought THAT was the ONLY seniornet extant. Wrong.

A few years later a dear friend told me about seniornet.org and I will never regret joining it. New vistas opened. But as a non-technical person I had great difficulty understanding and adapting to the htm code, so different from AOL's, where basic tasks like bolding, italicizing, underlining, coloring, indenting, etc. are accomplished by simply highlighting and a click.

That's why I have a fondness for AOL and do not want to give it up.

ROSE, you are a Californian like my daughter, I recall. But she is the SF area and you must be in the mountains to the East. Thank you for your good wishes. Let's hope we won't have any lasting power outages.

GramMuzzy, I was a child when I first heard about Hercules and fascinated that as a toddler he strangled the snakes sent to kill him. There is, of course, more to him. And we should not lose sight of Theseus, a very different kind of man. More later.

JUDY, I have always been fascinated by Native Americans. Growing up I was hooked on a multi-volume series written by one Karl May about Indian lore and specifically two fictional heroes, an Indian chief named Winnetou and a trapper named Old Shatterhand.

Karl May (1842-1912) is still a favorite among juvenile readers, AND not a few adults; the leather-bound books are highly prized collectors' items. This may explain the keen interest often shown by young Swiss, Austrian and German tourists who want to take a "closer look" and ask travel organizers for trips to Indian reservations.

Ever since I happened on my first book by Louise Erdrich, I have been an enthusiastic reader and devoted fan. The author is from the Chippewa tribe on her mother's side and writes with quiet authority - about current fictional happenings and their intricate connection to the past.

If I am not mistaken, our ROM (=read of the month) in AOL SN books is one by Louise Erdrich. GramMuzzy, would you correct me if I am wrong. Thank you.

More later.

JUDY, thank you again. We have to muddle through adversity as best we can and keep moving ...

SCRAWLER, it is significant, I believe, that Homer depicts both Achilles AND Hector as heroes : one Greek, the other Trojan; it shows eminent fairness. It is also important, I believe, that Homer ended the >I> Iliad with Hector's death, even though the war went on and Troy was ultimately destroyed.

By contrast, the Judgment of Paris is referred to in the Iliad only obliquely. The full story of Iphigenia is described in Chapter I of PART FIVE.

LOU, I'd like to answer your # 346 first and say that I would never presume to speak for anyone other than myself, or feel the need to "explain" what someone else meant. But I believe with all my heart that not one of those posting and reading here would deliberately set out to offend another's sensibilibites.

But in the course of our frank, free-wheeling discussion of Mythology, which involves perpetual wars, in tandem with the Iliad discussion, we are touching on existential issues; in fact, it is impossible to avoid them. So please bear with me.

Modern warfare assumed a totally new dimension with the discovery of the atomic bomb, and then the hydrogen bomb, and the real possibility of mutual destruction. The bomb remains a menace, a specter for future generations, the means for complete annihilation.

I am not sure how it is possible to consider one's enemy with respect under those conditions. I have absolutely no intentiont to veer into politics except to say that I recall the Vietnam War quite well; I worked in Washington then, and the student deferments young men with "connections" managed to get did not seem fair to me.

Now we have an all-volunteer army. And how COULD we get young men to sign up if there were no incentives? Recruitment is falling behind schedule, we have been told. What will be next?

In my hunmble opinion, we cannot, we MUST not impugn those who served their (respective) country in good faith. However, at this point in time (as John Dean used to say during the Watergate Hearings), when mutual destruction seems to be the objective, it is hard to see where respect for the enemy fits into the equation.

ROSE, I believe the Europeans get their notions about cowboy mentality from our Westerns and TV series : Wanted, Dead or Alive; Have Gun, Will Travel; The Rifleman, Steve McQueen's bounty hunter types, and ramming the head through the wall, brandishing guns at the slightest provocation, real or imagined.

It is the wide open spaces that made it possible. There was NEVER any room for rugged individualism in densely populated Europe, especially not after the massive refugee problems and destructions of WW II, and asylum seekers streaming in now from the African continent. But Europeans have an individualism of a different sort, and it has to do with the mind.

to be continued

My hope is that we be granted the extra time (divine dispensation ???) in February to complete the discussion of Parts 4 to 7 of Hamilton's book. Please let us proceed.

Instead, I'd like us to proceed with reading about the rest of Part Four, the aftermath of that war, Aeneas's flight with his father, Anchises, on his shoulders and his son by the hand, the founder of what was to become Rome.

It does make for fascinating reading, let me assure you.

So what can we conclude from reading Hamilton's mythologies. I believe that the myths of ancient Greece and other civilizations center their stories around themes such as love or revenge that are still prevalent in today's society. So in reading these myths with an open mind, we can better understand why we act and think the way we do today. I found that the ancient societies were really not much different than our own. And whether we believe in the darker images of Norse Mythology or the lighter themes found in Greek and Roman there is something within the myths that makes us feel better about ourselves and the relationship we have with all mankind.

Chapter III, The Adventures of Odysseus, describes what happened to the victorious Greeks after the fall of Troy. In their triumph and jubilation they forgot to render thanks onto those gods who had been their staunchest allies, Athena and Poseidon, who became their "bitterest enemies" (pg. 291). We also learn what happened to Andromache, Hector's widow, and to Helen, who was taken back by Menelaus, her husband, even though he had planned to kill her.

After visiting upon the returning Greek ships any number of miseries, adversities, mortal danger and even death to some, Athena reversed herself in the end (!) and was instrumental in bringing Odysseus home at last after years of wandering and, at times, deliberate dallying. Telemachus, his son, was a grown man by then. Penelope, the faithful wife, did not recognize him at first, but the old nurse did, and so did his dog. The quest of Odysseus has fascinated writers and readers ever since.

Chapter IV, describes the adventures of Aeneas, a prince of Troy (pp. 319-335). This chapter is essential to our understanding the path from Troy to Italy and to appreciate why the Romans were proud of their Trojan blood.

Let us go on.

I had dogs ever since we came to this country, something I could not do before. My last one was my loyal, valiant Greyhound Zola. I adopted her from a rescue kennel in our state on a Sunday morning. She had been brought in only a few hours earlier from a racetrack in Connecticut - mustered out early ...clearly not a moneymaker! She was unkempt, unbathed, not spayed, and half-hidden in a closet (with its door open); there was not one vacant cage. They did allow me to take her home with me. I miss her every day.

right back

but also in The Trojan Women by Euripides,
in Marlowe's Doctor Faustus
in Goethe's Faust and
in Tiger at the Gates by Jean Giraudoux.

There is even a story of a "false" Helen, attributed to the poet Stesichorus (who was said by Plato to have been blinded by Helen, who was also a goddess) for maligning her in verse.
And there are allusions to Helen in Thomas Mann's novel Magic Mountain .

More later.

The myth of the Danaïds may be deemed a moral lesson. It is the story of fifty maidens who were pursued by fifty cousins and at first indignantly repulsed them. Somehow they changed their minds and agreed to marry them. During the wedding feast each daughter was given a dagger (!) by her father (!) with which to kill the bridegroom.

One of them, Hypermnestra, was awestruck by the handsome young man sleeping beside her and forgot the promise she had made to her father and sisters. Instead, she woke him and helped him to escape. Her father threw her into prison for her treachery. (Some say she met the young man again later; they had a son and lived happily ever after.)

Her forty-nine sisters were sent to the lower world and given the task of filling water jars. But the jars had holes i them and the task was never-ending. Like that of Sisyphus (pg. 439) and Tantalus (pg. 346-350).

Aesculapius (pp.413-15), the son of Apollo, was another mortal punished by the gods. He was a great healer, a benefactor, but when he dared bring a man back to life, he invaded theirterritory. Zeus struck Aesculapius with a thunderbolt and slew him.

The man Aesculapius resurrected is said to have been Hippolytus, Theseus' son, who never thereafter fell under the power of death but lived on, immortal forever, in Italy, where he was called Virbius and worhiped as a god.

Please bring here any thoughts and comments you may have on anything we have discussed during these past weeks.

My plan is to end our reading by the end of the week after a brief discussion of the last chapter, Chapter Seven, Norse Mythology.

Many thanks to all.