Neil Simon Rewrites: A Memoir ~ 5/00 ~ Biography
Ella Gibbons
March 28, 2000 - 04:51 pm
Neil Simon has written a funny, deeply touching memoir, filled with details and anecdotes of the writing life and rich with the personal experiences that underlie his work.
Join us if you like a good autobiography! This is one of the best you will ever read.
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"The way I see things, life is both sad and funny. I can’t imagine a comical situation that isn’t at the same time also painful. I used to ask myself: What is a humorous situation? Now I ask: What is a sad situation and how can I tell it humorously?" -- Neil Simon
FLASH!!!! B&N has this hardcover book for $4.98 so order it now at this rate. Amazon has the same book in paperback for $11.20! Or get it at your Library
Interview with Neil Simon||Critique of book and other info||Plays by Neil Simon
Discussion Leader was Ella Gibbons
"Your horizons can expand....if you allow yourself the possibility of failure. You must, in fact, court failure. Let her be your temptress. There must be danger in the attempt and no net strung across the abyss to break your fall." - Neil Simon
Ella Gibbons
March 30, 2000 - 06:34 pm
Am anxiously waiting for a visitor! Please come in and we can talk about Neil Simon's plays and films while we are waiting to get the book!
I have to admit I haven't seen too many of his films and none of his plays. The Out-of-Towners, starring Sandy Dennis and Jack Lemon was just hilarious and I usually don't care for funny movies! Someone told me there was a remake, but I can't remember who starred in it - does anybody know.
Isn't that a bargain to get this book from B&N for $4.98? Any hardcover book for that price is a steal - and if you don't like it, give it for a Christmas present (well, the recipient might like it!).
These discount bookstores are cropping up everywhere in strip malls, have you noticed? I've bought a few, can't resist them - if you know the author you do all right, but I've bought a couple that I had read before which isn't all right when you get them home!!! Hahahaa
Eddie Elliott
March 31, 2000 - 07:52 am
Ella, thanks so much for that tip about B&N for 4.98! I just ordered my copy through your clickable above and looking forward to reading it.
I think it was me that mentioned the remake of Out of Towner's, still can't remember for the life of me who starred in it...but nowhere near as good as original, with Jack Lemmon and Sandy Dennis!
Eddie
betty gregory
March 31, 2000 - 09:36 am
Steve Martin and Goldie Hawn.
Ella Gibbons
March 31, 2000 - 05:22 pm
Hi EDDIE: Yes, now I remember, it was you that mentioned the remake, but nothing could be as good as the original. Are you going to be here for our discussion of the book in May? So happy to welcome you and I know you'll love the book. Don't need to tell you what a great writer he is, but this book is very different from what you have come to expect from Neil Simon.
BETTY - Thanks for that information. Goldie Hawn and Steve Martin are both hilarious although I've never seen them together in a movie. I've seen Goldie in many movies and the one I remember Steve Martin in is FATHER OF THE BRIDE - so funny! Do get the book and join us for our discussion of NS's life.
Ann Alden
April 1, 2000 - 06:09 am
Love the header, Ella, and I,too, have ordered the book. Sounds interesting. I saw him interviewed about his new autobiography on "E".
Ella Gibbons
April 1, 2000 - 06:38 am
HELLO ANN! I'm so glad you will be joining us. NS is such a unique individual; he conquered a turbulent childhood and many personal problems to be where he is today, at the top of his profession. This book is his first memoir; I know he has recently come out with his second which I certainly want to read when I get around to it. If we all want to after discussing this one, we can move on to the latest, keeping up with the bestsellers. We do that well here on Seniornet Books, don't we?
We must get Katie Sturtz in here, she's our resident expert on NYC Theatre and I bet she has seen some of NS's plays. He is the only playwright who has a theatre named after him there.
Who has seen Barefoot in the Park, The Odd Couple, Come Blow Your Horn, just to name a few? The play? The films?
Ann Alden
April 1, 2000 - 01:17 pm
Neil Simon is one of my favorite authors and Barefoot in the Park is just a hilarious movie which I have watched about a dozen times. Mildred Natwick as Jane Fonda's mother has some of the best lines you will ever hear. The one about the hardware and the gun being the best. The man is a genius!
Diane Church
April 1, 2000 - 01:22 pm
I've seen several of his plays - Barefoot in the Park I think I saw both in New York and in Los Angeles but such a long time ago. What a treat to look forward to reading this book and enjoying it with you lively and bright people!
Ella Gibbons
April 2, 2000 - 11:01 am
Welcome Diane - Oh, we are going to have a good group discussing Neil Simon and his life, films, plays, etc.
Diane, you've seen several of his plays so we may be asking you questions - perhaps reading the book will refresh your memory and you can tell some of us who haven't seen the plays all about them. I've questions already, but I'll save them for the discussion.
What a great group we'll have. Thanks all of you for coming!
Katie Sturtz
April 2, 2000 - 11:41 am
ELLA...first, let me say that I've seen very few of Neil Simon's plays on Broadway, but I think I've seen every one that was made into a movie. And I hated "The Out-of-Towners", which was not a play! Couldn't stand Sandy Dennis. The last one I saw was, I think, "Rumors", not one of his best. Very enjoyable, nevertheless. Here is a list of all his plays...
Come Blow Your Horn
Barefoot in the Park
The Odd Couple
Sweet Charity
The Star-Spangled Girl
Plaza Suite
Promises, Promises
Last of the Red Hot Lovers
The Gingerbread Lady
Prisoner of Second Avenue
The Sunshine Boys
The Good Doctor
God's Favorite
California Suite
Chapter Two
They're Playing Our Song
I Ought to Be in Pictures
Fools
Brighton Beach Memoirs
Biloxi Blues
Broadway Bound
Jake's Women
Rumors
Lost in Yonkers
Laughter on the 23rd Floor
London Suite
Proposals
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 2, 2000 - 05:58 pm
A list of NS's plays are now in the header, but thanks so much Katie. You don't like Sandy Dennis? I've liked her in everything she's ever done, but, of course, can't think of a one now. Wonder what ever happened to her - she must be about our age? I know she had those buck teeth, but that's just one of the things I admired about her!
When you click on that list, notice that quote of NS - the one about humorous situations being painful or vice versa. He's not the first comedian that has said that, but he says it well. At my grandmother's funeral, my sisters and I were laughing hysterically over nothing - it just started and we couldn't quit, and we've always felt terrible about that, because she was a wonderful woman and mother to her family. To this day, we cannot ever forget those hysterics and feel so ashamed of ourselves.
Has anyone else ever been afflicted with such painful memories?
KATIE - You must get the book and join with us - you'll add a lot if you've seen all the films!
Katie Sturtz
April 2, 2000 - 07:45 pm
ELLA...I will get the book, most definitely! I love biographies and this one will most likely have a lot of humor in it, don't you think?
Sandy Dennis died fairly recently. I think it probably was the buck teeth that turned me off...maybe they just distracted me so much I didn't appreciate her acting ability.
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 3, 2000 - 08:19 pm
UPS delivered my B&N book today and it was slightly damaged - certainly readable but crimped a little. Was anyone else's that way? I put some heavy books on it to fix that crimping - I wonder if that is why the book is that price? Should we write to B&N if that is the case and complain. Certainly, they should inform the consumer if this book is damaged in any way.
THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE BUYING BOOKS, DON'T YOU DARE READ THEM NOW! You'll forget what you read by the time May rolls around and be onto to something new. So put the book away for awhile, so we can all be on the same schedule and discuss it together. You all hear those orders??? Hahahaaa You can yell back if you like, it won't disturb me a bit.
Eddie Elliott
April 3, 2000 - 09:33 pm
Ella, got my copy today from B&N also. Perfect condition...so must not be reason for discounted price. Couldn't read ahead if I had too! In the middle of 3 different books right now...and gettng them all confused with each other! hahaha!
Katie...I didn't know Sandy Dennis had recently died! I really liked her in "Out of Towners". Didn't Sandy Dennis play in "Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe", with Richard Burton and Liz Taylor? I keep thinking it was she and George Segal, as the young naive couple that came for cocktails...Does anyone know?
Eddie
betty gregory
April 4, 2000 - 01:32 am
Eddie, you're right about Sandy Dennis in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Another movie she did (that I liked more than I liked her in it) is Four Seasons, written and directed by Alan Alda. Carol Burnet, Alan Alda and 2 (?) other couples vacation together each season. Vivalde's Four Seasons plays throughout the movie and the setting of New England's changing seasons was gorgeous.
Katie Sturtz
April 4, 2000 - 08:56 am
Right, BETTY...That sure was her in "Virginia Wolfe". I wish I could remember when she died, but if I say "last fall" it will turn out to be Feb. 1998. You know how that goes? It wasn't too long ago, I'm sure.
I really liked "Four Seasons", which also starred Len Cariou, Rita Moreno, Jack Weston, and Bess Armstrong. Maybe it was the music.
Love...Katie
Eddie Elliott
April 4, 2000 - 10:37 am
Only thing I could find regarding Sandy Dennis' death was this site that lists all her works and awards. It lists 1992 as her date of death, but gives no other particulars.
Sandy Dennis Eddie
Katie Sturtz
April 4, 2000 - 04:31 pm
EDDIE...1992??? Surely you jest! Tempus sure does fugit!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 5, 2000 - 02:02 pm
Katie - Time goes by fast you say? Ah no! time stays, we go! Hahaha
Thanks, Eddie for that info on Sandy Dennis - she looks very pretty in that picture - and Katie won't object to that one as her teeth weren't showing (shame, Katie!). I remember her also in Virginia Wolfe with the Taylor/Burton combo. Weren't they a pair! I think they fought in real life as much, or more, as they did in this film. Oh, but didn't Burton have a smooth, deep, lovely voice! Never cared much for E. Taylor, she never seemed natural to me - perhaps, she was just too beautiful!
The heavy books undid my crimping, and NS now looks good. Can't wait to begin our discussion. Shall we start earlier? Wait for more possibly to join us? Keep to the scheduled time? It's our discussion and we may do as we wish - up to all of you?????
GailG
April 6, 2000 - 12:39 am
This is going to be a marvelous discussion. I read the book about a year ago and remember it as being not so funny but deeply moving. I have seen many of his plays at our local community theater as well as in the theater and on TV. My personal favorite is Brighton Beach Memoirs. Do you remember the scene where his mother tells him about how she always fantasized about dancing with George Raft and Eugene dances with his mother? I also have a personal connection because I was in two of his plays; I played one of his sisters in Prisoner of Second Avenue, and the nurse to one of the Sunshine Boys (the George Burns role). Neil Simon did a great hour on Inside the Actors Studio last year, if it is ever repeated be sure to watch it.
Ella Gibbons
April 6, 2000 - 01:55 pm
Oh, great Gail - Welcome to the discussion! And you have been in the theatre yourself! Wonderful, you can be our coach and theatre critic. We needed you, so happy you will be with us.
I watch Inside the Actor's Studio occasionally - do they rerun them often? I saw Michael Caine there about a month before the Oscars and because of that I went to see his Oscar-award winner - The Cider House Rule.
No one has mentioned starting earlier, so we'll keep our date of May first. This promises to be a marvelous group of people we have assembled to discuss NS's book. Gail and I agree you will enjoy the experience of reading it.
One of the things I remember about reading it the first time, which was sometime ago, was his portrayal of how the ideas for his plays came to him and, as Gail said, his personal tragedies.
Katie Sturtz
April 6, 2000 - 04:10 pm
For those of you who can get Bravo, Neil Simon will be repeated on Inside the Actor's Studio next Wed., April 12th, at 3:45 EDT.
I saw a repeat of the interview with Lauren Bacall today. She was SO good! Have you read her autobiographies? Which she wrote every word of her very own self and won a prestigious book award for the first one, "By Myself". Well, that's what they said on the program, but my paperback has no mention of an award. It is one terrific autobio, tho! The 2nd one is called "Now" and is also delightful.
Love...Katie
Ann Alden
April 7, 2000 - 08:46 am
My book arrived last week and in perfect shape. I am looking forward to reading it with you all.
I never think of Sandy Dennis that I don't remember her best part in "The Out of Towners" with Jack Lemmon when she says, "Oh, George! oh George!"
Anybody see "Judgement at Nuremburg" last night on TCM? What a powerful movie!
Ella Gibbons
April 7, 2000 - 11:09 am
Thanks, KATIE - I have that written down on my calendar. How do you find out when programs are going to be on? Is it TV Guide or Digest, whatever it is called? I have never bought a copy of that and I should, I miss a lot of good programs that people tell me about - afterwards! Recently, I read where the founder of that TV magazine made a fortune through the publishing but I can't think of his name - who was it?
Didn't know Bacall had written a bio. Must get it, she's one great lady - a survivor, I like those kind of celebrities.
Katie Sturtz
April 7, 2000 - 11:34 am
ELLA...I get Bravo listings from their website. It's not listed in any of the publications I get. I will now attempt a clickable...
Bravo listings Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 8, 2000 - 02:46 pm
KATIE - Well, I've got that site bookmarked - some interesting programs coming up. Now if I can just find that bookmark amongst all the others - hate to edit those bookmarks, don't you? As bad as cleaning out closets, which never get done! Remember spring housecleaning? Used to do it! Turned the house all upside down, oh, wow, I don't do that anymore.
Katie Sturtz
April 8, 2000 - 08:56 pm
ELLA...make it easy on yourself...put it on your desktop. Right clicking your mouse will do it for you. (I "houseclean" my desktop every once in awhile...real easy with the wastebasket right there!)
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 9, 2000 - 03:31 pm
I'll try that, Katie - have a question. If I delete all that other stuff on my desktop, does that delete those programs from my hard drive? Need all that stuff, but not everyday and have been afraid to touch it for fear of sending it out into cyberspace never to be recovered. Such a chicken I am with this computer! When it's working right, I don't want to disturb it!
Charlotte J. Snitzer
April 10, 2000 - 05:32 am
Ella:
Laughing at funerals is a common psychological reaction. It probably reacts as relief valve--a reassurance to the survivors that life will go on. It happened to me once when I met some one for the first time at a funeral. It was an unexpected pleasure and I really enjoyed talking to her. My daughter was mortified.
Charlotte
Katie Sturtz
April 10, 2000 - 08:39 am
ELLA...no, it just removes it from you desktop. You can find it somewhere in your files if you need it. Surprising how seldom I find I need some of those "must haves". Story of my life...and why I'm trying to unload some of the accumulation in this house!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 10, 2000 - 10:11 am
Thank you so much, CHARLOTTE for taking the time to tell me about your experience and that laughing at funerals is common! It helps a little that others have experienced the same thing, but just a little. We still feel that it was so inappropriate, and even at the time, we tried to mask our laughing with coughing, and finally a couple of us got up and went to the restroom and stayed there.
KATIE Off they go! Now I'll just put my favorites on the desktop. I watched Geena Davis on Bravo last night, not one of my favorites but I like the format of that show - they let the actors do the talking.
Don't forget this Wednesday at 3:45 p.m. to watch our author, NEIL SIMON, on Bravo, and then we can discuss the interview here. And I have another idea that I'm going to put in the header tonight and post in the Library tomorrow.
betty gregory
April 10, 2000 - 11:33 am
Ella, I know I'm weird, but the FACT of your laughing at a funeral makes me like you, sight unseen. I can't STAND the thought of a morbid, sniffling funeral when I die. If I knew ahead of time that people would find comfort in remembering funny things, or just get their funny-bone tickled over nothing (as your group must have), I would LOVE it.
Betty
Ella Gibbons
April 10, 2000 - 11:45 am
Hi BETTY! Really! Oh, my golly, I've never been so ashamed of my behavior, ever! And my sisters (there were 6 of us, now 3)all blamed each other for starting the hysterics, but oftentimes it is over nothing at all.
Funerals are such awful somber things to attend aren't they! Morbid, but I have no idea how to change the way it is done, or even if we should, do you?
I have put some questions in the heading that I've pondered all my life. Have you admired someone at a dinner table or a gathering of friends who can say - "Now that reminds me......." and come out with a joke or a quotation that is so appropriate? How do they do it? Have they a store of these things memorized and how do they choose which ones they use?
Politicians are so good at this, have you noticed? Is it a learned behavior?
Let's discuss what makes you laugh!
betty gregory
April 10, 2000 - 01:17 pm
Ella, if you've chuckled together as sisters in the retelling of the story through the years, then I'd say it's a jewel of a memory and not such a bad thing to have happened. So human!!
Diane Church
April 10, 2000 - 03:34 pm
A little more on the "appropriateness" of certain humor...
One of my first "real" jobs was in social work at an orthopaedic hospital. One time in particular that I remember, a few of us were taking our break in the hospital coffee shop and at a near-by table sat a bunch of our surgeons. They were howling with laughter and, as we stopped to listen more closely, could hear them telling the sickest jokes - don't recall details but they had to do with blood and gore, etc.
Wet behind the ears as I was, I was offended that these "heroes" of our hospital, who performed so many miracles on deformed youngsters, had "lowered" themselves to this level of humor. Another social worker in our group, older and much wiser than I, explained that several of them had just been involved in a particularly difficult surgery and this was their way of letting off tension. Duh! So obvious once it was explained. And a lesson I'll never forget. Life can be difficult - let's grab those laughs and chuckles and giggles were we can.
Katie Sturtz
April 10, 2000 - 03:41 pm
ELLA...there are lots of "Celebration of Life" get-togethers now, instead of funerals, and the ones I've been to have lots of laughter as family and friends remember the good times. I think they are more like the good old Irish Wakes. I'll never forget the funeral for my husband's aunt. Her son was a priest and there were guitars and joyous singing in the church as we all celebrated Aunt Yvonne's entry into Heaven. Just remarkable!
I love one liners...if they are truly funny. I do not like the Jay Leno nastiness.
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 11, 2000 - 11:42 am
Hi DIane - yes, that has happened to me also. That release of laughter can be restoring to the mind in many ways and often it is misunderstood. And KATIE I wish more funerals were like that, whether it be Irish Wakes, or just remembering the good times.
KATIE, you like one-liner jokes? Who is your favorite one-liner gal or guy? Bob Hope, Phyllis Diller come to mind!
You don't like situation comedies such as Carol Burnett or Lucille Ball?
I'm just the opposite, Bob Hope was clever, good expressions and pose, etc., but I never thought he was funny. I would smile, but I'm talking about laughter - laughing out loud!
Phyllis Diller was funny and could make me laugh. I remember laughing at her description of the dirty diapers piling up and she got so frustrated with all the work of the babies, that she just went out, dug a hole and buried them! I can still laugh at that one!
Why is it that two men always fighting with one another, such as Felix and Oscar were in the Odd Couple, are funny? I think they are hilarious. Is it because they carry situations to extremes? Carol Burnett used the same comedy in the skit that she did weekly with her mother - do you remember that one? I could laugh next day at some of the arguments those two had with each other.
What makes you laugh out loud? Let's discuss it!
Deems
April 11, 2000 - 01:18 pm
Hi Ella and all---I've been thinking about laughing at funerals. So far, the only funerals I've been to are those where I didn't feel like laughing. HOWEVER. . . . .
I am a minister's daughter. I used to sing in the choir at church. In choir, I sat next to one of my good friends from high school and one of the funniest people I have ever met. We sat in pews up front. Marcia used to provide an endless string of one-liners, comments on what was going on during the service or a comment on someone else in the choir, or a comment on the sermon. Tried to pinch myself so as not to laugh. Didn't work. Tried to think of the saddest thing I could. Didn't work. Finally I would start to laugh silently, but hard enough to make the back of the pew vibrate. Then Marcia made it vibrate more, and usually, a more senior member of the choir in the same pew would lean over ever so slightly and give us a churchly look. Which made it all funnier.
Has anyone else noticed that people rarely laugh in elevators?
Maryal
Ginny
April 11, 2000 - 01:19 pm
Hahahahah!! ELLA!!! I love that guy! hahahaha Where did you get him?
OH I always thought Bob Hope was amusing in a kindly sort of way, never thought Jerry Lewis was funny at all, and of course if you read his books he was NOT funny in real life, and is not. Lucille Ball the same way, in fact, don't they say she had no sense of humor or of what was funny? But she sure WAS funny, I remember laughing at her, some how she captured our own foibles.
IN fact, when you think about it, I'm hard pressed TO say who I thought was funny to the point of drop down laughing.
I like Monty Python, the Holy Grail makes me laugh till I cry, that's STILL the only movie I ever saw where people laughed over the credits which were displayed BEFORE the movie, they just roared, made yo know something was coming.
I think John Cleese is funny, his "Clockwork" or "Clockwise" is a HOOT! But then again, he's in the Python troop and is not always funny at all.
I never thought Red Skelton was funny but did like Jack Benny. it's strange, taste.
You know who is really funny? The movie Zorro the Gay Blade? That's a hoot and the supporting cast is a riot.
I guess I like spoofs of things which go wrong. Never liked Abbott and Costello, thought Abbott was nasty and mean and of course in real life again, in real life they were just the opposite. Never liked Laurel and Hardy either.
Don't like clowns. Jeepers, I'm beginning to wonder if I DO have a sense of humor?
Ginny
Eddie Elliott
April 11, 2000 - 01:44 pm
One of my favorites was Tim Conway! He could crack me up just walking across a room, or turning his head and looking. Mostly though, I like situational comedy. Anything that rings true to me, but is not hurtful to any other faction. Cannot stand Jay Leno! Never cared for slapstick. I do enjoy a sophisticated humor. Oh...another I absolutely loved was Sid Caesar...brilliant! He and Imogene Coco both! Of course, I think a lot depends on my mood for the most part.
Eddie
patwest
April 11, 2000 - 02:17 pm
Dick Van Dyke... gave an interview once about comedy.. He said a comedian can get his most laughs by making mistakes that ordinary people make, because then they can laugh at him and identify with his embarrassment and pain..
(Ginny, did you like his barnd of comedy? I did.)
jane
April 11, 2000 - 05:06 pm
I also like Tim Conway, as well as George Carlin..can still remember his "Hippy Dippy Weatherman" routine...and Robin Williams and Jonathan Winters together in the same room.
šjane›
Ella Gibbons
April 11, 2000 - 06:33 pm
Don't you love my funny little guy up there? First he was there, then he disappeared and a frog jumped in for awhile, then my guy came back.
Mysterious!
What memories - are there any funny TV shows on anymore? Any situation comedies? Any funny movies? Ginny mentioned one I've never heard of - anyone know that one?
Remember the ROASTS they used to have - now they were funny! And there used to be a drunken man on those roasts - he was always hiccupping - I thought he was funny (even though if it were for real I wouldn't).
Do awkward people make you laugh, like Dick Van Dycke? He was always stumbling around on the Mary Tyler Moore show - I loved that show. Ignorance can be funny if done in a way that is not hurtful! Do you agree?
Not one person has told a joke?
What makes you laugh?
Eddie Elliott
April 11, 2000 - 07:11 pm
Ella...FOSTER BROOKS! YES...I had almost forgotten about him! Loved him in the "Roasts"! Didn't he appear a lot on the Dean Martin show...can't remember.
My husband loves the Monty Python movies too, Ginny...I never could get into them. Two other of his favorites, that I swear he has watched dozens of times & still laughs 'til he cries are...Young Frankenstein and Blazing Saddles. A movie that sends us both into hysterics is "What About Bob?", with Bill Murray and Richard Dreyfuss. Have any of you seen that?
The Sitcoms I enjoy now are "Everybody Loves Raymond" and "Becker". Try not to miss either one of them...the writing is brilliant!
Do any of you remember the comedy album years ago..."The Button Down Mind of Bob Newhart"? Also...Andy Griffith doing "The Football Game". Hilarious!
I'm not good at remembering jokes to tell them. Wish I could...
Eddie
patwest
April 11, 2000 - 07:22 pm
Do you want a story or a joke... There's a difference.
A young man saw an elderly couple sitting down to lunch at McDonald's.
He noticed that they had ordered one meal, and an extra drink cup. As
he watched, the older gentleman carefully divided the hamburger in
half, then counted out the fries, one for him, one for her, until each
had half of them.
Then the old man poured half of the soft drink into the extra cup and
set that in front of his wife. The old man then began to eat, and his
wife sat watching, with her hands folded in her lap.
The young man decided to ask if they would allow him to purchase
another meal for them so that they didn't have to split theirs.
The old gentleman said, "Oh, no. We've been married 50 years, and
everything has always been and will always be shared, 50/50."
The young man then asked the wife if she was going to eat, and she
replied, "Not yet. It's HIS turn with the teeth."
Katie Sturtz
April 11, 2000 - 07:29 pm
EDDIE...Hooray! I'm not the only one who's crazy about "Raymond" and "Becker"! They are the only sitcoms I watch, and my Monday nights revolve around them. I think Ray is one of the writers for his show, but I'll bet Ted Danson isn't one for his. He certainly has a great team writing for him, tho.
I agree that it is the writing that makes the comedy, and all the pratfalls and silly shtick in the world won't make me laugh. Some of my favorite stand-up guys are Tim Conway, Tim Allen, Allen King, Bill Cosby, George Carlin, Carl Reiner...and who can ever forget Fred Allen? I'm sure some others will come to mind. (How many more are named "Allen"?)
Love...Katie
patwest
April 11, 2000 - 07:38 pm
How about George Burns?
Eddie Elliott
April 11, 2000 - 07:43 pm
Katie...another Allen...GRACIE! Wasn't she wonderful?
Eddie
Katie Sturtz
April 11, 2000 - 07:58 pm
PAT and EDDIE...George and Gracie were terrific! Between them and Jack Benny's "look", there were a lot of laughs back then. The unusual thing about Jack...his long pauses were just as funny over the radio as they were on TV or in person. I still quote him..."If I can't take it with me, I'm not going!" in answer to that famous phrase people use when they want to spend your money. I'm doing it to be funny myself...not sure about Jack's motive. Hehehe!
Love...Katie
Ginny
April 12, 2000 - 06:16 am
haahha, Pat, that's funny!! ickers!!
Eddie, oh yes, and my husband HATES that Monty Python and the Holy Grail, you know the part right in the beginning where you hear the clatter of hooves and the knights come over the hill and it's a guy hitting cocoanuts, as they have NO horses and are pretending to ride? That's as far as he got? "Stupidest thing I ever saw," he sweetly proclaimed, and got UP and left the ROOM! hahahahahaha
.Young Frankenstein and Blazing Saddles. OH YES!! And what about Robin Hood, MEN IN TIGHTS! ahahahahah OH that's a great one, Bob would love that! hahahahaha
We're MEN! We're men in tights! hahahahahaha
"What About Bob?" hahahaa I liked that one too!
I only know two jokes. Here's one:
There was this big fat mother tomato. And she was walking down the street with her little boy tomato. And it was a city street and he kept running off on tangents as kids do and she kept having to turn around and say come on!! and get him, and he kept running off and looking at stuff.
So he saw her shoulders stiffening and so thought that she was going to turn around again so he quickly ran and caught up right behind her but she didn't see him and turned around and stamped her foot (here you do it physically) and squashed him flat (you don't say that part) and hollered KETCHUP! (Catch up, get it? ) hahahahaha
The other joke concerns a young preacher invited to a new church to preach, it was his first sermon and he was very nervous but when he stepped out to the pulpit there was only one lone farmer in the congretation in overalls.
Gulping, the young man decided to do his best anyway, and went on over an hour and a half, really threw himself into it.
Then he raced around to the door to greet the farmer, "How did you like it," he panted?
The farmer looked at him and said, "Son, if I take a wagon load of hay out to my cows, but there doesn't but one come, I don't dump the whole load on her."
hahahaha
Ginny
Katie Sturtz
April 12, 2000 - 08:11 am
Today is the day that Neil Simon is interviewed on the Bravo channel...at 3:45 P.M., EDT.
I'm dying to hear what his favorite word is and what he'd like to do if he wasn't writing plays. And, of course, I'm expecting him to be funny!
See you there, I hope!
Love...Katie
Lorrie
April 12, 2000 - 09:39 am
IT’S ALL RELATIVE
Dear Dad:
It’s been a few months since I left for college, and I’m getting along fine now. The skull
fracture I got jumping out the window when my dorm caught fire is pretty well healed.
Fortunately, an attendant at the gas station near the dorm saw me jump. And since we all had to
find temporary quarters at once, he kindly invited me to stay in his rented room right down the
block. He’s a fine boy, an under-achiever but really sensitive. We’ve fallen deeply in love and
plan to marry. We’ll be setting the date soon since we’re expecting a baby. I know you’ll
welcome him despite the differences in our ethnic backgrounds.
Your loving daughter,
Susie
P.s. Now that I’ve brought you up to date, let me reassure you. There was no fire, I didn’t
fracture my skull, I’m not pregnant, and there is no gas station fiancé. But I got a D on my
European History mid-term, and an F in Chemistry, and I wanted you to see those marks in their
proper perspective.
hahahaha! Lorrie
Eddie Elliott
April 12, 2000 - 10:14 am
Lorrie...that's funny! You made me laugh, with that one!
Eddie
Lorrie
April 12, 2000 - 10:19 am
That's the whole idea!
As a would-be writer myself, I'd like to mention that writing humor is about the most difficult form to write. What might send one person rolling in the aisles could very well leave someone else stone-faced. I truly admire Neil Simon.
Lorrie
Eddie Elliott
April 12, 2000 - 10:25 am
Yes, of course, Miss Lorrie...that is the idea of this whole discussion, isn't it? TTYL
Ella Gibbons
April 12, 2000 - 02:14 pm
Oh, you are all so funny - just marvelous jokes! Thank you so much for sharing them with all of us!
LORRIE - Get NS's book from the Library and join us - we all guarantee you'll not only love it, but learn from it also.
DID ALL OF YOU WATCH NEIL SIMON THIS AFTERNOON? Thanks Katie for that reminder, I had it on my calendar so I wouldn't forget - and he's almost, not quite, but almost as funny in person. A mild-mannered man isn't he! A lot of what he said is in this book and it's just a treat to read it. But I don't remember the Walter Matthau incident where Walter wants to play Felix in the Odd Couple. Can you imagine that???? Thank goodness, NS prevailed upon him to play Oscar - he's so perfect in that role.
When asked the essential ingredient in writing humor, Neil Simon said CONFLICT! And somebody WANTING something. Conflict - and when I heard that I thought of my question - Why is it so funny when two people are arguing, such as Felix/Oscar, and Carol Burnett in that sketch with a mother. It's true, it's conflict, but I don't think conflict in most human relationships is funny do you? It certainly isn't when my husband and I disagree, and disastrous when my daughter or a friend and I disagree!
I didn't know that NS had written a trilogy of plays. Hope I can get them all at Blockbuster - they are all autobiographical.
I've already requested 2 videos from the Library, but I can't remember which two! Oh, dear!
Ella Gibbons
April 12, 2000 - 02:21 pm
Forgot to post my one and only joke that I've remembered, it's not funny, it's just cute!
There were 3 carrots crossing the street when one of them was hit with a car and rushed to the hospital. The two other carrots waited patiently to hear about their friend; finally the doctor came out of the operating room and said to them - "I've got both good and bad news to tell you. The good news is that your friend will live; the bad news is that he will always be a vegetable."
hahahahaaa - smile!
Who mentioned Bill Murray? Who is he? For a minute I thought they were talking about Eddie Murphy, who is very funny in his movies, do you agree?
And how could we forget the Honeymooners? Jackie Gleason, Art Carney, wonderful humor. Who wrote those scripts? Katie, do you know?
Eddie Elliott
April 12, 2000 - 02:56 pm
Ella...Bill Murray is one of the original, Saturday Night Live cast. I know you've seen him...I always had trouble remembering his name, also. He was in "Ground Hog Day", "Caddy Shack", "Man Who Knew Too Little", "Stripes"...among others. "What About Bob?" though, was one of his funniest.
Yes, I watched interview with Neil Simon on Bravo...thanks Katie for reminding us and for that link to Bravo. Got it on my desk top too, Ella. You're right...such a mild mannered man. So interesting! Going to start on my book after dinner tonight...can't wait.
Eddie
betty gregory
April 12, 2000 - 11:53 pm
LOVED the carrot joke, Ella. First outloud laugh today.
Chapter Two was autobiographical, I believe. Misgivings about a 2nd marriage after his wife died. Marsha Mason, James Cann starred in the movie. Do I remember correctly, Marsha Mason WAS his second wife----is this right??
betty gregory
April 13, 2000 - 12:08 am
Pardon the little arrows below, as I retrieved this comic list from an email I received a few months ago. It's for cat lovers and (you'll see) dog lovers, too.
HOW TO GIVE A CAT A PILL....DIRECTIONS:
1. Pick cat up and cradle it in the crook of your left arm as if
holding a baby. Position right forefinger and thumb on either side of cat's mouth and gently apply pressure to cheeks while holding pill in palm of right hand As cat opens mouth, pop pill into mouth. Allow cat to close mouth and swallow.
2. Retrieve pill from floor and cat from behind sofa. Cradle cat in left arm and repeat process.
3. Retrieve cat from bedroom, and throw soggy pill away.
4. Take new pill from foil wrap, cradle cat in left arm holding rear paws tightly with left hand. Force jaws open and push pill to back of mouth with right forefinger. Hold mouth shut for a count of ten.
5. Retrieve pill from goldfish bowl and cat from top of wardrobe. Call
spouse from garden.
6. Kneel on floor with cat wedged firmly between knees, hold front and
rear paws. Ignore low growls emitted by cat. Get spouse to hold head firmly with one hand while forcing wooden ruler into mouth. Drop pill down side
of ruler and rub cat's throat vigorously.
7. Retrieve cat from curtain rail, get another pill from foil wrap. Make note to buy new ruler and repair curtains. Carefully sweep shattered Hummell figures from hearth and set to one side for gluing later.
8. Wrap cat in large towel and get spouse to lie on cat with cat's head just visible from below armpit. Put pill in end of drinking straw, force cat's mouth open with pencil and blow down cat's throat through drinking
straw.
9. Check label to make sure pill is not harmful to humans, drink glass
of water to take taste away. Apply Band-Aid to spouse's forearm and remove blood from carpet with cold water and soap.
10. Retrieve cat from neighbor's shed. Get another pill. Place cat in cupboard and close door onto neck to leave head showing. Force mouth open with dessert spoon. Flick pill down throat with elastic band.
11. Fetch screwdriver from garage and put door back on hinges. Apply cold compress to cheek and check records for date of last tetanus jab. Throw tee shirt away and fetch new one from bedroom.
12. Ring fire department to retrieve cat from tree across the road. Apologize to neighbor who crashed into fence while swerving to avoid cat.
Remove last pill from foil-wrap.
13. Tie cat's front paws to rear paws with garden twine and bind tightly to leg of dining table. Find heavy duty pruning gloves in shed, force cat's mouth open with a small wrench. Push pill into mouth followed by large piece of fillet steak. Hold head vertically and pour 2 pints of water down throat to wash pill down.
14. Get spouse to drive you to emergency room, sit quietly while doctor
stitches fingers and forearm and removes pill remnants from right eye. Call furniture shop on way home to order new table.
15. Arrange for SPCA to collect cat and ring local pet shop to see if they have cute puppy for sale.
HOW TO GIVE A DOG A PILL....DIRECTIONS:
1. Wrap it in bacon.
Ella Gibbons
April 13, 2000 - 06:54 am
Hi BETTY Now that was hilarious - started my day with a laugh and copied to email my daughter who might go those lengths (well, not quite) to keep her cat healthy. It's her child! Comedy is much the same as this - absurdity carried to the extreme, do you agree?
Eddie - don't read too much of the book before the rest of us do - you'll forget it all and be off to another book while we're just getting started - so HALT, right where you are.
Everybody mentioned a funny film that made them laugh and the only one I can remember at the moment is the one where Jackie Gleason was the Deputy Sheriff and was chasing Burt Reynolds (and a fellow in a truck with his dog)all across the country. We've seen it twice now and my husband sits there and doubles over with laughter which is truly infectious as he doesn't laugh often - to that extent, anyway.
Can anyone tell me the title? If so, I just might rent it again - love to see my husband laugh like that.
Are you one of the people who tell jokes at a gathering? Can you do it with ease and not flub the punch line as is my tendency?
Ella Gibbons
April 13, 2000 - 07:11 am
Betty- didn't answer your question. I've never seen Chapter Two, but it wasn't the one NS talked about in his interview as being autobiographical; however, he says that most of his books are to some degree autobio. And, also, in his interview he said most authors write that way because the characters and the plot go through their mind where personal experiences influence plots and characters.
NS stated that the trilogy he wrote were his most personal - the B.B.'s he called them: Brighton Beach Memoirs, Biloxi Blues and Broadway Bound.
Do get the book, BETTY, and join us in the discussion. We need your insight!
Theron Boyd
April 13, 2000 - 09:54 am
Ella and all - You ask in the heading "What makes you laugh?", My answer is "The world and all it's people". Everything that occurs, and does not cause harm or misery, has a humorous bent if you look for it. I do find that I have to be very aware of my surroundings. The element of humor is lost on some audiences and would cause others to "Roll in the Aisle". I believe that no single form of humor is acceptable to all but that some forms are seen by each individual.
I guess what I'm saying is that I would not present the same humorus speach at a MENSA gathering that I would at a conference of Businessmen.
Theron
Deems
April 13, 2000 - 11:09 am
betty-----Love the cat joke. Dogs will take pills wrapped in cheese too, though I had a Welsh Terrier who was so smart he kept the pill in his cheek, went to another room and spit it out. The same dog had problems with his ears periodically, made worse when he scatched them. So he would go as far away as he could, a bedroom upstairs, to scratch.
maryal
Diane Church
April 13, 2000 - 04:40 pm
If I can back up a little, three comedians I remember with great fondness are Ernie Kovaks, Jimmy Durante, and Danny Kaye. I don't remember any of them relying on nastiness to be considered funny. Jay Leno has certainly sunk to lower depths in recent years. I don't remember him being so gross back when he was being considered as Johnny Carson's replacement. As for a whole show that hits my funnybone just right, have you seen Keeping Up Appearances? It's right up there with Faulty Towers which was my previous favorite. The British have such a funny slant on things.
Ella Gibbons
April 13, 2000 - 05:15 pm
Hi THERON! Oh, yes, how right you are - a humorous bent if you look for it - the trick here is looking, and listening and most of all listening, do you agree? Good comedians, those that are quick on the retake or rebound with a clever bon mot, are those that listen well. I'm trying to think of a particular individual who was always good at this and the only one I can name at the moment is Dick Cavett. There are many I've seen over the years though that were just as good.
Oh, someone else that was really good was Jack Paar on the Late Show - before Carson! Now he was funny and so was Carson - and I can't stand Jay Leno - we all agree on that!
Hi Maryal! - our last dog was just the opposite - stupid, retarded little fellow and my husband adored him. Felt sorry for him actually, but he was so cute! No more, I said, they do tie a person down and I want to go when I want to go without making all those arrangements!
Diane I loved everyone of those guys! Jimmy Durante, how can we forget "Goodnight Mrs. Kalabash wherever you are!" Makes chills go down my back as I'm sitting here. Danny Kaye, the git-gat-doodle guy - wasn't he funny!
What station is "Keeping Up Appearances" on? I love British humor, too. On our PBS every night at 7:30 we have a British show called "Are You Being Served" - think I've seen every episode now. Just hilarious.
Thanks to all of you for sharing your ideas of humor.> However, no one has answered the question about faking laughter? Do you ever? I do, and lots of times! Some jokes just aren't funny!
As Theron said, we all laugh at different things!
Neil Simon is very funny - he cannot let many pages go by without humor, at least to me he's funny. But the book is about his life also and every life has its share of sorrow, he's quite candid about that.
Speaking of his book, do you think it is true that a good book should "grab" you at the very beginning in order to hold your interest?
Diane Church
April 13, 2000 - 09:15 pm
Yup, Ella, Guilty! I have laughed at jokes that I didn't "get", or didn't think were funny, or didn't really hear. Why? So as not to be thought of as a poor sport, I suppose. Not one of the favorite parts of myself. But, I'm working on it.
Diane Church
April 13, 2000 - 09:26 pm
"Keeping Up Appearances" appears sort of hit or miss on Saturdays and/or Sundays, on PBS. We do our darndest to catch it but aren't always successful. I think you'd love it. How could you not? But then I never understand why everyone else doesn't think what I think is hilarious, IS hilarious, etc.
Hey, anyone remember Ernie Kovaks? Or his wife, Edie Adams (I think, not sure)? He was enormously clever and funny and probably way ahead of his time but then died too early. I forget why. Car accident? Not sure. He had a big mustache and honestly, I can't really remember much about his routines except that I thought he was terrific and was crushed when he died. I think he may also have been a musical talent but probably hadn't gone as far as he could have, had he lived. Honestly, all I remember was a little skit involving three chimps on a little merry-go-round and a theme I still remember (da da DAH, da da DAH, da, da da, da DAH da dah! Of course someone out there recognizes this!
Oh yes, Jack Paar was terrific. Funny and also intelligent and never insulted his audience. Johnny Carson was a let-down at first but I felt he grew to fill in the shoes extremely well. He also had standards and I wonder what in the dickens ever happened to standards. Sigh.
Eddie Elliott
April 13, 2000 - 10:08 pm
Ella...is the movie your husband enjoyed so much, "Smokey and the Bandit"? I think it may be. As far as faking laughter...yes, I have been guilty of that at times. Mostly at some of my husband's jokes, because he claims the only one who gets his humor, is me...don't want to take that away from him! hahaha! Only other times I fake laughter, is if I know the person telling the joke doesn't often open up enough to share and is very sensitive when he/she does. I don't laugh at dirty jokes, or sick jokes, that are told in mixed company.
Diane...yes, Ernie Kovacs was great. You're right, it was Edie Adams he was married to. I remember the same skit re: the monkeys, that you do. Hilarious! Didn't he also do a skit of reading poetry...called himself Percy Dovetonsils??? It seems I remember him doing this, in those funny glasses with the eyeballs painted on them.
I loved Jack Paar. Remember being so upset when he left. Didn't think I would ever like anyone that took that show. But, really got to love Johnny Carson. They both had that brilliant comedic timing and were caring, private men. I wonder too, what has happened to standards...is there anyone of their calibre today...that has standards? I can't think of any.
Eddie
dunmore
April 15, 2000 - 05:40 pm
All I can remember is his great line "do you wanna buy a duck" he was a favorite in my house growing up.
Ella Gibbons
April 15, 2000 - 06:00 pm
DIANE - Gosh, I don't remember Ernie Kovacs at all, but I must have seen him if both you and Eddie remember him. Even your da, da, DAH didn't help! Hahahaaa
EDDIE - Yes, thank you, it was Smokey and the Bandits - Am going to rent that again if only to see my husband bend over laughing, his stomach starts to hurt! Must be a guy thing - watching that car go to pieces slowly, huh?
DUNMORE - I'm not sure I know who Joe Penner is? Can you tell us more about him? For some reason, that expression "Do you wanna buy a duck?" reminds me of the great Goucho Marx! Particularly that TV show he had, of course, I can't remember the name of it, but it was a quiz show of some kind and he was so funny!
To get back to Neil Simon, last night I watched two videos - GOODBYE GIRL with Marsha Mason and Richard Dreyfuss, and PLAZA SUITE, which was 3 comedy sketches all starring Waltar Matthau. You understand exactly what Neil Simon meant when he said in his interview that conflict and "want" are the two main elements of his plays and films.
Never knew Richard Dreyfuss was ever this young - Hahaha! He must be around our age now do you think? The first time I ever saw him was in Jaws and the last time was in Mr. Holland's Opus, which was wonderful. And a young Walter Matthau was as great as the old Walter Matthau is today, imagine that! Hahahaa
Neil Simon also stated in his interview that a strong FIRST ACT is necessary in order to not only to grab your interest but to sustain the play; that's what makes me curious as to whether that is true of books! Do we need a strong, should I say exciting, first chapter to keep us interested?
Another thought - NS said he looks for GOOD actors, not necessary comedy actors, which, of course, makes sense as a good actor can do any kind of a part. Richard Dreyfuss proved that, as did Walter Matthau. But has Walter Matthau ever done any serious acting? Who can remember?
betty gregory
April 15, 2000 - 08:25 pm
Walter Matthau and Glenda Jackson did a serious movie---actually, romantic comedy, but still a serious part. Anyone remember the title?
GailG
April 16, 2000 - 12:55 am
Oh, where to start! First,back to humor at funerals. There is a wonderful sketch called "The High Cost of Dying" written by Mike Nichols and Elaine May which is a take-off on the high cost of funerals and you might not think this is a funny subject, but the skit is hilarious. I'll post it another time. Nichols and May did some wonderful humorous sketches.
Does anyone remember "The 2,000 Year Old Man" where Carl Reiner interviews Mel Brooks. One of the things the old man complains about is that he has 800 children and not one of them ever takes the time to call their father!
How about Gilda Radner and her excrutiating explanation of a word and her "never mind" when she realized she was ex plaining the wrong word.
Remember MASH and how the doctors told funny stories while they were operating on serious injuries. Laughter is a physical release, among other things. My heading signature used to be "Find Something to Laugh At Every Day". One of the healthiest things to laugh at is to laugh at ourselves and not take ourselves too seriously. I think that's the whole point of Neil Simon's plays, the common thread of humanity and finding the good humor in situations we all can recognize and in some way identify with.
GailG
April 16, 2000 - 01:11 am
Forgive me, but I'm on a roll and want to get this down before my keyboard dies on me. Definitions:
<Abdicate: To give up hope of ever having a flat stomach.>
<Flabbergasted: Appalled at how much weight you've gained>
<Negligent: A condition in which you absentmindedly answer the door in your nightie.>
<Gargoyle: An olive flavored mouthwash.>
<Lymph: to walk with a lisp>
<Balderdash: a rapidly receding hairline>
<Testicle: a humorous question on an exam>
<Rectitude: the formal, dignified demeanor assumed by a proctologist immediately before he (or she) examines you.
Gail
Ella Gibbons
April 16, 2000 - 08:03 am
HI, BETTY I hope someone knows more about Walter Matthau - he's one of the best and still going. I've often wondered if he has back trouble - his posture is just terrible and he was stoop shouldered even when young but it adds to his charm, I think.
GAIL - I'm FLABBERGASTED!- truly! And I would be NEGLIGENT (and I can be dressed or in a nightie while I'm on the computer) if I did not share those humorous definitions with others - which I will, those are just hilarious!
Mike Nichols and Elaine May are mentioned frequently in NS's book - did they make any films? I know they did comedy on Broadway and were a hit! I'd love to see a film if they did any - let me know!
Oh, and MASH! My daughter and I both fell in love with Alan Alda and have never fallen "out" of it. He's the most adorable man and the situation comedy in that sketch was of the highest caliber! All of them, the whole bunch, but, as Katie pointed out earlier, the writer does not get enough credit - and they make it all possible. Who wrote the MASH episodes? Anyone know?
"There are things of deadly earnest that can only be safely mentioned under cover of a joke."
betty gregory
April 16, 2000 - 08:27 am
Gail----Same brainwave here---I like all you mentioned. Mike Nichols and Elaine May did a recent collaboration---but I can't remember if it was a made-for-tv something or a movie. Someone will remember, hopefully. Very recent.
betty gregory
April 16, 2000 - 08:55 am
At a recent televised event honoring Harrison Ford, Mike Nichols showed his unique wit. After a long line of others who gave words of praise, told funny stories or introduced film clips, Mike Nichols stood up and said, in that straight-faced way of his, "I don't know what the big deal is...about this guy." He threw up his hands, as if in exasperation and confusion. He brought the house down. His delivery (timing?) is perfect.
Diane Church
April 16, 2000 - 04:42 pm
Gail - stay on that roll! Yes, I remember that Nichols/May sketch on the high cost of dying. Seems it ended up, after discussion of endless charges for the tiniest of "costs", the bereaved family thinking that finally the negotiations were complete and the arrangements all made being asked, "Now, how did you plan for the body to get to the cemetary?" You'd probably have to hear the whole thing but my husband and I still use that line and crack up.
And Gilda, oh, yes Gilda! Remember her news report about "violins breaking out in Albania?", and confusing the Bach cantata with the veal picata? What classics some of them became.
Oh, this is fun. But, hey, only one of you remembers Ernie Kovaks and his, "da da DA....." skit?
Have we acknowledged Sid Caesar and Imogene Cocoa? They were hilarious together.
Ella Gibbons
April 17, 2000 - 08:27 am
They are all mentioned in the Neil Simon book - he knew them all, wrote for them all - Sid Caesar, Imogene Coco - Jerry Lewis - and Mike Nichols directed many of his early plays. NS says he was brilliant and tells many stories about him.
Oh, it's storming out and I must get off of here! Keep the humor rolling, folks, it's such a treat to come in and smile and laugh! You're all great - isn't this fun!
Katie Sturtz
April 17, 2000 - 04:12 pm
I just tuned into my nightly fix of "M*A*S*H" on the FX channel. They are running the "old" ones now, probably because of Larry Linville's death last week. He played Frank. I'm not as fond of these early ones because of the canned laughter at every mildy amusing remark. Most of the early ones, at least, were written by Larry Gelbart, and sometimes he collaborated with someone else. I can't honestly say who was doing the writing the last few years of the show, but I don't think it was Gelbart. And it ran for ELEVEN years, remember. That's a lot of writing!
Johnny Carson never much appealed to me until his last few months on the Tonight Show. He was too petulant! If the audience didn't laugh at his monologue, it was THEIR fault, not his committee of writers. I was embarrassed for him when he'd give those people sitting there a
hard time. When he decided to retire, tho, he grew mellow, and lots more appealing, I thought. And funnier!
Mike Nichols has a very interesting life story! And no hair. Anywhere!
But I guess everyone knows that by now.
Speaking of Bravo, did you all see Tim Robbins In the Actor's Studio last night? So cool! And tomorrow is Susan Sarandon...at 4:00. I wonder how old these interviews are? I've seen most of Susan's not long ago, but I'll certainly watch again tomorrow.
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 18, 2000 - 10:15 am
No, KATIE - I didn't. It was raining here and we took off and ran around all day trying to make decisions! No decisions were made after going to 6 window places! I give up!
Why is it we knew Neil Simon had written a few of his plays? I didn't know many of them, but I knew he had written the Odd Couple - did you know he didn't make a dime from the TV series or the film?
Did you know that Art Carney was Felix Unger in the Odd Couple on Broadway?
Did you know that Barefoot in the Park is his most produced play of all? (If I remember correctly, but we'll come to that in the book)
NS is so likeable, so human in the book, perhaps that is why he is so funny. For example, he was at a party when Princess Margaret Rose and Lord Snowden came in and he and his wife, Joan, giggled at this whole business of bowing and curtsying and he avoided the Princess all evening because the only thing he could think of to say to her would be "What's new at the Palace?" Hahahaaa, I identify with that!
Has anybody seen Carol Burnett lately in anything? I never missed a show of hers if I could help it! Who wrote her stuff?
Ella Gibbons
April 18, 2000 - 11:57 am
Lest I give the false impression that Neil Simon's book is all sweetness and fun, I'll also tell of two incidents, among many, that happened to him as a child that sends him into analysis as a grown and successful man.
As a young boy, he stands holding his mothers's hand staring at a house across the street; his mother reminds him that if they see his father leaving that house he is to confront his father with the fact of his infidelity and swear to this in court. The boy can hardly catch his breath for fear the father will appear, forcing him to betray his father, and if fear stops the words from being said, he will betray his mother.
Another time a neighbor calls the police to his home because of domestic violence and NS watches across the street, feeling too ashamed and frightened to admit that it is his house that the policemen are entering.
Only at the movies, where he can lose himself and laugh at Charlie Chaplin, or in the Library where he can pretend to be someone else, can the boy find any peace of mind.
Deems
April 18, 2000 - 12:08 pm
EllaG---Most interesting about Simon's childhood. Now I know where the humor and the artistry comes from. It's astonishing how many artists had unhappy childhoods or alcoholic parents.
Katie Sturtz
April 18, 2000 - 09:24 pm
ELLA...NS made the point that "Barefoot In the Park" is the most produced of his plays "around the world". It must be fascinating to see your play in any one of several different languages, and, I imagine, local variations in staging. Wonder if he has control over that?
Your hints about his early life are making me anxious to receive my copy of the book. It's on it's way, according to the email I got from B&N. Hurry, hurry, USPS!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 19, 2000 - 09:26 am
Hi KATIE! Wait to read it with the group - won't be long now - I think we'll do the first 3 chapters the first week which I think takes us through his first play.
He describes in the book one of his (oh, dear the faulty memory here) plays or films in Italian - very funny.
I'm going out of town tomorrow until next Tuesday - coming up your way, Katie, to East Lansing where my daughter lives. I noticed the other day that the clickable above "Plays by Neil Simon" has been placed on the web by someone from her university - msu.edu.- so I emailed Mr. Pelowski and invited him to join us as obviously he is very interested in NS. Cindy teaches there and I asked her look the fellow up either in the faculty or student directory. Interesting.
Katie Sturtz
April 19, 2000 - 10:00 am
Ah, Easter in East Lansing! ELLA, have a marvelous time and say "Hi!" to Cindy for me. I hope you have good luck with your professor or whatever...sounds like he'd be a good source of information for our discussion.
Love...Katie
betty gregory
April 20, 2000 - 11:06 am
I started reading the book last night and couldn't stop reading for 240 pages....I just meant to read the first few pages. I love writers' take on writing. Plus, what a story behind this writer's writing. What a gift this man has---even when the guise of comedy is momentarily lifted for us to see the painful source. But given what my favorite plays are, why should I be surprised?
I've known that the best writing is rewriting, but here it is in a personal retelling of the long history of each final page. Humorously, of course, his brain is wired for nothing else. Wait 'til you get to the part about his taking their dog Chips out to pee on the ice. My favorite part so far.
Those of you still on the fence----read this book.
Katie Sturtz
April 20, 2000 - 05:09 pm
BETTY...mine arrived yesterday, and I've started reading it, too. Only a few pages so far, but it's great! And I was expecting a paperback, for the price...less than $9 including S&H and tax...but it is the hardcover! Now you've made me want to get out of here and go read!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 26, 2000 - 10:30 am
Well, I just tried to send everyone a message stating that our book discussion will begin this Sunday, May lst and I keep getting that grey box stating Invalid Addresses, so I will just post it here and hope all will see the date and are anticipating this as much as I am!
On returning from Michigan the Library had called and I now have 3 more of Neil Simon's plays to watch on video. Previously, I had seen three, so with 6 of them viewed I should be able to remember something about them as we go through the book - although my memory is faulty at times.
Oh, all of you must help me do justice to this wonderful man and his marvelous book, albeit mixed with sadness.
If you are finished reading it (which I hope is not the case) you must come into the discussion and tell us your thoughts. I love this fellow and if I could, I'd love to give him a big hug! How about you?
Eddie Elliott
April 26, 2000 - 01:29 pm
Ella, saw your post here and am anxiously awaiting discussion to start Sunday. I have so many discussions I am interested in...this is definitely one of them. You've heard the old expression, "I'm dancing as fast as I can"? (Think it was also title of a book) Well...I'm reading as fast as I can! hahaha! Hope I don't get all of these mixed up in my muddled brain and can make some sense in the discussion.
See 'ya then...
Eddie
Katie Sturtz
April 26, 2000 - 02:53 pm
EDDIE...it's OK...you can count Neil Simon as one of "The Greatest Generation"!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 26, 2000 - 05:16 pm
Yeah, Katie, that we can! He wrote this book in 1996 and he says that he's in his late sixties! That puts him about my age, and the fellow isn't through yet! He has a new play on Broadway, can you imagine! Well, yes, I can, a neighbor of ours who is 71, and still a test pilot, is contemplating taking a new job out west managing an airport! We're not old, folks, at all, are we? Hahahaaa
Eddie - I know, so many on my plate now also, but I love it all - I love the Books. I'd rather be in here reading the posts or talking to all of you than doing the boring things I have to do around here - let's not mention dishes, cooking, yard work, etc. etc.!
I'm trying to decide if we should put all NS's suggestions for a writer in the heading above? What do you think? Would that be interesting to others?
Have you ever wanted to write? Doesn't everybody that reads want to write? I've even tried a few times, but I don't have the patience, or can't sit still that long. And I certainly couldn't rewrite like Simon does - three long years it took him to get that first play off the ground or table or wherever! And how many rewrites???
Katie Sturtz
April 26, 2000 - 05:39 pm
I have a secret to share, or a confession...take your pick. Maybe I should've tried to be a playwright, because I dream in dialogue! Truly! I don't remember scenes in my dreams, but the words are swirling around forever. I have no idea if they are even worth remembering, but there you are. Any suggestions?
Puzzled...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 27, 2000 - 12:23 pm
KATIE! Yes, a suggestion! More than that, I think it's imperative you write all that dialogue down! It's there for some reason and who knows where it will lead? Just to keep it from swirling around endlessly in your head would be a good thing, don't you agree! Just get up in the morning and write it down immediately! See where it leads.
I never dream, or if I do I don't remember it!
Last night I watched COME BLOW YOUR HORN. Am I the only person who doesn't like Frank Sinatra? Never did! Now I want to go back in the book and read who played NS's older brother on Broadway, although I probably won't know the person. The two brothers had a very complex relationship as NS describes it in the book - most siblings' relationships are, don't you think?
Tonight I'll watch either LAST OF THE RED HOT LOVERS or BILOXI BLUES - the latter being NS's play about his experience in WWII.
Amazing how this book is overlapping the GREATEST GENERATION discussion. I notice in that book there is a chapter on Art Buchwald - now his experiences in WWII are simply hilarious. A Jewish boy from the Bronx in a southern army training camp. Well, of course, he and NS made them sound funny as writers are apt to do to overcome their painful memories.
Ella Gibbons
April 28, 2000 - 09:17 pm
HELLO EVERYBODY! DID YOU GET MY EMAIL?
Nobody is going to tell me I made a mistake in the date? I said Sunday was May lst? And it is actually Monday!
Well, do drop by and give a wave, a nod, something!
Biloxi Blues was a very different movie, I think, for Neil Simon. A homosexual episode - and for the times it must have been risque!
Katie Sturtz
April 29, 2000 - 09:11 am
ELLA...sure did get your email! Thank you! Meanwhile, I've been catching up on my magazine reading, including an article about Kim Basinger in Vanity Fair. She met Alec Baldwin while they were making Neil Simon's "The Marrying Man" and they had "a horrendous time making the movie." Seems they fought with the Disney execs who were overseeing the film until it was almost a war.
Kim was "excoriated for asking that some of Simon's lines be rewritten; she believed they were misogynistic and unfunny. Although critics have had the same problem with Simon's female characters for years, the male studio executives on 'The Marrying Man' were as outraged as if a bimbo had had the temerity to question God. (Basinger's instincts were later confirmed by the critical pounding the film received...and by it's failure at the box office.)" End of quote.
So...now I'm dying to see what, if anything, Neil Simon has to say about this in his book. Maybe that movie is one he'll leave out?
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
April 29, 2000 - 07:41 pm
Hi -KATIE! Thanks for stopping by - I hope others will tomorrow or by Monday!
I'm not going to answer your question about that movie because it would give away too much about the book and all that happens to NS. But I can understand that attitude about Simon - he is preeminent in the field - films and theatre. He seems a modest man, but he did have to put in the Introduction that he has a theatre named after him in N.Y. Well, I would probably mention that too, wouldn't you?
Think I'll put a few questions in the header just to get us started off with something to think about!
Gosh, I hope the others are coming to the party! What can we offer besides good conversation? Are they all stuck down there in the GG? Wow, that discussion is "smokin" as well as it should be! All those veterans that came in so suddenly, isn't that grand?
betty gregory
April 29, 2000 - 09:55 pm
Ella, someone explained to me that the group of 12(?) new people that showed up all at once had been recruited...to shift the discussion. That something similar has been done before. This is second-hand information but it does seem to clear up the mystery, if not the hurt feelings.
betty gregory
April 29, 2000 - 10:02 pm
Oh, I am so ready for the next autobiography from NS---it was a perfect place to stop this first one (won't say where for those who are still reading) because I'm sure it represents a major shift in his life. But it leaves me wanting to know everything else!!
Ella Gibbons
April 30, 2000 - 12:34 pm
HI BETTY! Obviously you liked Neil Simon's book and that makes me very happy. A discussion leader never knows whether anyone else is going to enjoy a book simply because he/she did! But how could one miss with such a delightful writer as NS.
Why don't you start off the discussion about the first three chapters? I've posted a few questions in the header to get us started - do any of them bring any thoughts to mind?
Here is a very successful man looking back over his life from the vantage point of his late sixties - can he be modest, truthful, honest? Now that he has been through all the "rough" years in his career, I wonder if he is amazed that he had the courage as a young man to be such a risk-taker, as when he gave up a good writing career in Hollywood to move back to N.Y. and try his luck with theatre. Would any of us do such a thing - perhaps some of you have?
I was not a risk taker ever! Too careful, too fearful; consequently I admire anyone who does!
One of the funniest stories in these first three chapters was about Joan squeezing that bed into a closet - "a shoehorn was her only possibility." What a laugh! And the rain and the snow coming through the hole in the roof!
Most of us started off with small apartments and can look back now with affection at our troubles! What makes you smile as you look back on those early days?
Ella Gibbons
May 1, 2000 - 07:25 am
HELLO - HELLO - HELLO!
CALLING FOR EVERYONE WHO IS - HAS - WANTS TO - READ NEIL SIMON'S MARVELOUS MEMOIR!
LET'S GATHER ROUND AND DISCUSS IT!
betty gregory
May 1, 2000 - 05:12 pm
I'm ashamed to say I can't find my book. It's here somewhere, that I know. What I loved, loved was reading along in one of his lengthy introductions of people or events and, SHOCK, realizing abruptly that no wonder this sounds so familiar---it became a play!! Barefoot in the Park had that tiniest of bedrooms with such funny scenes of trying to get things from a closet, and snow coming through the skylight, and the marvelous (though too oft repeated, said the critics) struggles up the endless flights of stairs. Later, I had the same abrupt realization about the source for The Odd Couple. A really enjoyable way to read a book.
What a way to spend a life, recording in such accessible form, those scenes from life. What a eye he has. What an ear!!
Ella Gibbons
May 2, 2000 - 04:56 pm
Hi Betty! Definitely - ears for all the nuances in conversation that were recorded in his plays - and what skill he displays in observing and remembering human behavior. Hope you find your book and join us soon!
No risk takers here? My, my! We are all weaklings? Anyone here at all?
Well I'll pretend and copy some great lines NS wrote in these first three chapters for those who might be peeking in; you may be surprised his book is not all comedy but some serious stuff here, folks!
Jerry Lewis made me laugh in spite of myself, because I saw something in him that was missing in me and perhaps in most of us - the freedom from being so fearful of how people judged us.
"We're just not going to California for the rest of our lives," Joan said in that tone that never beat around the bush and would certainly never beat around a giant redwood.
A joke is something someone else tells you, which is then passed on to someone else who hasn't heard it as yet. No one knows where those jokes come from. No one. They are as difficult to trace as the day the universe was born.......I hate jokes.
I think it's fairly well documented that our characters are shaped in those first four or five formative years of our life. I think mine was carved in granite in the first eight months.
To this day it's even hard for me to call a friend and ask for a favor. I have driven myself to a hospital rather than put someone out. I do not in any way look upon these traits as attributes or strengths.
Two reasonably intelligent people sitting alone in the theater scares me. Twenty-five million unseen viewers spread out across America is an abstraction and never fazed me. If you can't hear the tree in the forest falling, you can't hear someone in Indiana not laughing.
Can you imagine writing 22 complete versions of 125 pages and almost never repeat yourself? He says his wife, Joan, had read them all and was beginning to think WAR AND PEACE was a short story! Hahaha
But isn't that amazing? Could you do that? Neil Simon did for his first play "Come Blow Your Horn" which took a year to write and 2-l/2 years to REWRITE. And all that was done nights and weekends while he was devoting days to making a living writing for television.
And what does Neil Simon have to say about what makes a person funny? He says to start with poverty and bigotry - both of which he knew as a child growing up.
Does any of this whet your appetite to read more of the book?
Diane Church
May 2, 2000 - 08:43 pm
Ella, I'll be here soon. Thought I had requested it from our library but, alas, had not. Discovered my oversight, found that it IS in the system, and should be heading my way shortly. And then I'll read like crazy to catch up with wherever you are. The more you post about it, the more anxious I am to read.
Ann Alden
May 3, 2000 - 05:23 am
Ella, this book is as funny as Neil Simon plays. He has such a good take on the human race especially his corner of the world. I am still working on Chapter 3 but will come in later today and comment. You are so good at posing questions, you should have been a teacher!
I forgot to ask about his age. In the very first part of Chap.1, he say that in 1957, he was 30yrs old. That makes him 63 today not in his late 60's which he had claimed earlier. Which is it? Will we ever know? Does it matter? I think not! His genius knows no age!
Eddie Elliott
May 3, 2000 - 11:05 am
Ann...if he was 30 years old in 1957, that was over 40 yrs ago...he would be about 73 now. But, as you say...makes little difference, a genius at any age!
I am enjoying this book so much. Have found myself with little time to post and keep up...having a family problem right now, that is demanding attention. Sorry, Ella...but should be back soon, with more time to devote to this.
Eddie
Ella Gibbons
May 3, 2000 - 05:03 pm
Oh, good,
DIANE - you won't be too far behind in this book, we're just doing the first three chapters this week; however, I find there's so much in each one to talk about we could take another one just on these first few! And,
ANN! HEY ANN - just come on in now and tell us what you think? What was funny? What films or plays have you seen of NS's? If I'm playing Teacher here, then you better show up with a good note from home or you'll get sent to the Principal's office.
HI EDDIE - I'll be looking forward to your comments as I know you'll love this book. Gosh, so much all of a sudden going on in the Books - what with the GG to read every night (if you don't it takes a whole day to catch up), and then the other one about the President sounds exciting also. But do come back after you get the family taken care of - hope your husband's all right???????
Has anyone here seen the movie "Come Blow Your Horn?" Well, I was expecting two brothers who were always at each other's throats and instead I saw a light comedy about a younger brother wanting to emulate the older. From the book NS makes it clear that, although Danny (the older brother encouraged Neil to write) there was conflict abundant in their relationship. To give an example:
As I grew older I never doubted Danny's opinions or talent. But they were always HIS, and it soon became clear that his point of view was not necessarily mine………You need not be writers to be subjected to being sibling rivals. Brothers and sisters eventually resent each other, otherwise why would those Greeks have written all those tragedies? Eventually we went our separate ways, but not without hurt and pain.
That's a sample of what I expected - rivalry between the brothers. However, as you who are reading the book will discover, there is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, in NS's life that escapes his plays, films or memoir. I haven't seen all of NS's work, but I bet there is sibling rivalry in one of them, two brothers or two sisters, nay 3 or more, "going at each other."
And how would you like to be married to a guy like that? Or be his friend? Or sit across the table from him at a restaurant? Or be in his home! I would have been petrified - wouldn't have opened my mouth for fear of being the clown or fool in his next play!
Let's mention some writing suggestions or writing techniques as we read through this book and I'll put them up on top - it may be that the writers on Seniornet might be interested, if not reading the book, just taking a look at his suggestions and agreeing or disagreeing.
The first one, of course, would be REWRITE, REWRITE AND THEN REWRITE! And somewhere in the first chapter, I think, he mentions that he never knows the ending of a play, as he approaches the beginning of the end, he gets a glimpse of what may happen - what do you think of that? Thinking back to my writing attempts I outlined - had to outline! I would imagine that says something about a person's character or personality or -----what's the word I'm seeking?
But please do tell me to shut up once inawhile, as I do go on a bit much at times! So off I go - see you soon I hope!
KATIE - KK-KK-KK --KATIE?? - Where are you? I know you would be in here chatting away with us if you were home and feeling okay. I sure hope she's all right?? Katie--------
Katie Sturtz
May 3, 2000 - 05:07 pm
ELLA...my goodness! Never fear! I am here...lurking mostly. I'm afraid I'm not up to par on The Book as I've been busy in my closet and getting thru the stack of magazines. Will get on it tonight, right after "West Wing". Promise!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
May 3, 2000 - 06:26 pm
Well, that's a relief, Katie! I just thought you'd be here at the start - hope you're not going to be this late to lunch in June! Have a question just for you - why is it that in every city in the country people say "I lived in an apartment" whereas any one that ever lived in NYC has to say "I lived in a West side apartment, or East side apartment?" What's the big deal here?
betty gregory
May 3, 2000 - 06:30 pm
Oh, how frustrating. Still can't find my book but I know it's turned backwards in some stack of books that's so close I'll feel foolish when I finally spot it.
Wasn't it interesting that Come Blow Your Horn as the movie was such a departure from the book---which may have set into motion Simon's life long hands-on approach to everything else he was involved with. (If I remember correctly.) Also, I realized as I read that there are stretches of time in my life that I knew and loved several of his plays/movies and whole stretches when I was not even aware that a certain play was his.
The task of rewriting. No, Ella, I can't believe how many times he rewrote that first play. Amazing. Such perseverence I've rarely heard of. I am aware (but wasn't for a long time) that the best writing goes through many stages. Maybe 10 years ago, or so, I began to read autobiographies of writers and that's when I started to understand how important revisions are. Also, there is a book by Peter Elbow that addresses rewriting. He advocates constant writing with no editing interruptions---you know, that pausing we all do searching for a word or backing up and changing something as we go. Elbow (what a name) instructs you to keep writing for X number of pages, then go back and liberally cross out what doesn't work, save a tiny bit that does and start again with the kernals of thought you saved. I haven't thought about that book in a long time.
Katie Sturtz
May 3, 2000 - 07:58 pm
ELLA...gee whiz! You got me...on the "I lived in an apartment" thing. Usually people will ask where you live, which sort of calls for a definitive answer when you're talking about New York City. So, it's...on the Upper West Side, or Greenwich Village, or Midtown, or the Flatiron District, or whatever. I don't know anyone, personally, who lives in a house there, so an apartment is just assumed. I would imagine that if you lived in a townhouse it could be understood that you were one of the elite on the Upper EAST side! (Yes, I know...there are townhouses elsewhere, but...)
Love...Katie
Eddie Elliott
May 3, 2000 - 08:10 pm
Ella...in your question to Katie..."any one that ever
lived in NYC has to say "I lived in a West side apartment, or East side apartment?" What's the big deal here?" Couldn't resist this answer...
LOCATION...LOCATION...LOCATION!
Eddie
Diane Church
May 3, 2000 - 09:32 pm
For a little more insight into the east side,/west side thing (and yes, Greenwich Village, too, or...the "Village" when I lived there in the late '50's), you all will really enjoy the discussion coming up in June on "Apple of My Eye" by Helene Hannf.
I think my NS book has arrived at the library today. For some reason they are not allowed to state the name of the book, only that "the book requested by.....has come in and will be held, etc. etc.". I guess this might be to protect people who request weird or suggestive books and would not want family members to know. For example, if my dearly beloved were to request a book on do-it-yourself divorce, I would have good reason to have a fit. Also to suspect a major error - on the library's part! But, tomorrow I will know if I can do some catch-up reading to join you people.
GailG
May 4, 2000 - 01:51 am
Ella: Back a few posts you talked about NS's writing about sibiings and if that subject was treated in any of his other plays. Another question was raised about living in a "West side" or "East side" apartment and what was the difference. A perfect example of both these subjects is his play "Prisoner of Second Avenue. I don't know when this will come up in his book but it is not a "funny" play, or a comedy.....and yet there is much humor in it.
The way he describes the apartment his characters live in, their next door and upstairs neighbors, the way the wife and husband react differently to their apartment being robbed, all this reveals the frustrations and hardship of life in the "Big Apple" and yet he is able to make you see humor in our human frailties.
The other situation in this play deals with his brother and sisters. I did this play so I know it well. I dont want to jump the gun any more than I already have but when we get to it we'll see how he develops the sibling relationships.
Enough for now;I've got to start "re-reading" "Rewrites". I loved it the first time, and I'm sure I'll love it again.
.
Gail
Ann Alden
May 4, 2000 - 06:00 am
Oh, Eddie, so much for my math talent! A simple subtraction problem and I failed! Thanks for correcting me!
Ella, I think the difference between the East and West of NYC has changed over the years. According to Helene Hanff's book, if you lived on the West side, it was more politically active, with marches, protests and hands-on politics. If you lived on the East Side and a politically volatile matter came up,"the clubs will hold a dignified debate and then send a telegram to the governor telling him that they are against such and such." To quote her:"The real difference between the East Side and the West Side is in the people. They not only think and behave differently from each other, they look different. Generall speaking, West siders look dowdy, scholarly and slightly down-at-heel, and the look has nothing with money. They are mostly scholars, intellectuals, dedicated professionals, all of whom regard shopping for clothes as a colassal waste of time. East Siders, on the other hand, look chic. Appearances are important to them." Since families need living space and and may move to the West Side to get it, and since singles want modern kitchens and may move to the East Side to get them, both Sides have a certain number of fish-out-water. But, in the 70's and 80's, what they had were the liberals on the West Side and the conservatives on the East Side.
Ella Gibbons
May 5, 2000 - 05:40 pm
BETTY! - How interesting that book by Peter Elbow. I'd like to take a look at it someday and will when I browsing around in a Library - don't you imagine that an established author has found a way that works for him/her, but how difficult it must be for that first version for an writer! Would it help to know how others do it? Or would it be confusing? I would think that each has to find what works best for him/her. From a couple of authors I know - they are not well known, it is more difficult to find an agent that will get you published than it is to write the book itself. You must attend a lot of author seminars and festivals and the like and get acquainted with the genre.
I'm not satisfied yet with this business, KATIE of Manhattan and renting/owning a house/apartment; in fact, I'm confused and need straightening out. I thought many of the wealthier families in NYC owned their own home (although it is in what many of us in smaller cities call an apartment house because the walls are connected.) Do New Yorkers say "Our home is in the upper '70's," or whatever, or do they say "We own an apartment in the upper 70's" or do they say "We live in an apartment in the upper 70's" or what do they say? For example, we all know Jackie Kennedy lived in a brownstone - the Dakota Apartments weren't they? But they were called the Dakota Apartments - it's all very confusing to me.
When I went to an Elderhostel in Rome last summer, everywhere there were apartment buildings and I asked our fearless leader if anybody owned homes. And he said everyone here does, those are not what you call apartment buildings - they own the space in those buildings they live in and they call it their "casa" or home. It is their home! And their "casas" are willed to their descendants just as we leave our home to ours (if we haven't already gone to a condo or nursing home - heaven forbid)! But enough!
EDDIE - HI! Have you had any more time to read Simon's book? Oh, yes - LOCATION, OF COURSE! It's always the East Side or the West Side because everyone knows the north and the south of it, and the higher you go the better address you have, right? Well, not always, you don't want to go too high there - where would the ELITE stop - in the 90's, do you think? We went to an off-Broadway play once in the 90's and ate dinner around the corner - delightful people, delightful play, loved it!
DIANE - our Library always asks on the computer if you want the book named when they call on the recorded message! Yes, I would imagine that is why, but I just never thought of the reason! Hope you got your book. Give us your input on the first three chapters which are sort of introductory and lead us through his first play.
Yes, the play "Prisoner of Second Avenue" does come up later in the book, GAIL. And I do remember a few of the details, but I don't remember that he talked about WHERE THE APARTMENT WAS - I'll have to go back and read it, or just wait until we get there. OH, AND YOU DID THE PLAY! How I, or most of us, would love to be able to say a line like that!!! I did the play! Sounds simple, but I know it isn't? Please tell us something of your background - when did you start acting? Where? What age? Are you still? I'm so tickled you are here and do stay with us throughout! So many questions I want to ask you!
HI ANN I just received Helene Hanff's book yesterday that I ordered from Bibliofind. A slim book - paperback! I was expecting a hard cover with pictures, darn! Well, I'll get that one from the Library. Although I've visited the city 3 times now, you could visit every year and still not feel as though you had seen it all, primarily because it is always changing! But some things never change, which is a darn good thing, it's exciting to go!
We had mentioned sibling rivalry and who knows the subject better than myself - with FIVE SISTERS! Can you imagine - SIX OF US! And being teenagers and clothes and boys! And double dates! Those were the years, some good, some not so good! One instance that I've never forgotten happened when my older sister had "done" something to me and to "pay her back" (those were the expressions), I tore up her noon movie ticket - well, she backed me into a corner and said I was never getting out alive until I returned it - and how could I do that when I had torn it up! Years later when I told her about that, she couldn't remember it, but she laughed! She was bigger than me and very angry that day! Our high school, to keep us off the streets and out of local stores, showed a movie a week with segments each day at the lunch hour - I think we paid a quarter for the week's movie.
Any of you have any sibling stories? Oh, certainly you do!
And have you noticed his marvelous analogies that make reading the book so interesting and bring a smile? Let me quote a couple:
There were enough shoes in the shoe closets (speaking of Jerry Lewis) to last out the combined careers of Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, and SECRETARIAT
In this business you look for bread crumbs and settle for what the pigeons couldn't get to that day.
I soon realized I was in a state of terror with butterflies in my stomach that had turned into bats driven mad by chape champagne and reprocessed caviar.
And how did Shakespeare make copies of his plays to give to the actors, pray tell?
I loved this line - "Theater, like life itself, follows the ritual of evolution. Birth, life, death, birth----"
What was your favorite line?
Katie Sturtz
May 5, 2000 - 06:44 pm
Whew, ELLA! I'll try to elucidate a bit about The City and the "homes" there. Jackie Kennedy did not live in The Dakotas...that was John Lennon (Yoko still lives there.) and they are large apartments in a large building on the Upper West Side. Each one costs large money, too. Jackie lived in a large apartment on 5th Ave. on the Upper East Side. Brownstones are narrow houses which share a wall with the brownstone next door. Each one is a separate home, but with several floors. You go up to the livingroom, and up some more to the bedrooms, and the maid goes clear to the top floor to her room...or did, in the good old days. Now, any one of these dwellings could be owned by the person who lives there. Most of the buildings that have apartments owned by the dwellers, are co-operatives, which means a committee of the owners decides who can buy into the building. There is much contention here, as you might guess. A great deal of discrimination goes on. There are some buildings where the apartments are true condos, but not as many as you'd think. Then there are the rental buildings. Some of them are still under rent control, meaning the tenants are paying what they paid many, many years ago because the law says the rent cannot be raised. Just try to find one for rent! I think the owner can now charge more to a new tenant, anyway, so...try for a sub-lease. That could still work.
Anyway...down to the nitty gritty. I have never heard someone say, when asked where he lives, "I have an apartment on the Upper West Side." He will just say, "the Upper West Side". Then, if you ask if it is an apartment, or a brownstone, or a loft, maybe, he will tell you...probably with a look which means, "Whaaaat?" Maybe it's the people I know...could be, of course, but they just don't say "apartment" much. I've heard...our place, my house, 89th St., but it's taken for granted that you live in an apartment, whether it is two rooms or 20. There really isn't much choice! If you want a separate, free-standing house, with a yard, you have to look outside Manhattan.
Love...Katie
Bookie
May 5, 2000 - 08:20 pm
Big mistake! I dropped in here a couple of weeks ago and was captivated by the thought of a book by Neil Simon. Before shutting down for the night the book was ordered. I even had delusions of making an occasional contribution to this forum, something not likely for a book by any other author. My mistake? Reading the whole thing almost non-stop instead of pacing myself with the forum. There are some books that make you do that. This is one. Fortunately re-reading "Rewrites" is a pleasure. Now I can pull myself away from the story line long enough to make a few observations I didn't stop to analyze before.
Neil Simon is a wordsmith, not so much in his ability to string together his adjectives and nouns, as in the profusion of analogies, metaphors and similies he constructs for our viewing pleasure. Here's one I particularly liked from Chapter 1 where he describes his relationship with wife, Joan, regarding their love of baseball: "I was a Giants fan; she, of course, was a Dodger fanatic. We were the Montagues and Capulets of baseball, who found true love despite this insurmountable barrier. When the Polo Grounds was finally toppled into dust and Ebbets Field was dismantled brick by brick, downing a vial of poison each was not totally out of the question." Marvelous!
I'll be back!
betty gregory
May 5, 2000 - 10:53 pm
Analogies, metaphors, similes. Couldn't agree more, Bookie. Simon also surprises with an unexpected ending to a well-known phrase. If I could put my hands on the book, I could give an example. Still looking.
Ann Alden
May 6, 2000 - 06:08 am
What do you think of the line,"which I added to my last bite ever of a New York deli sandwich."? Does he mean he gave up eating them or he moved away from NYC and never came back? I wondered when he mentioned what he had to eat at the meeting with his agent, why he inserted that info and then he returns to it with the above line.
The Mike Nichols quote of "Stop trying to fix what you have. Throw it out of your mind. It doesn't exist anymore. Now go back and write it." impressed me when I thought it through. So different from the rewriting of a book.
Ella, sibling rivalry exists in all our families. My brother and I just hated each other at times. Even in an episode in our 40's when our mother decided to give the family grandfather clock to him instead of me. Don't ask why, I can't explain it. With my sister, Mary, and my other brother, we had none as they were more like my kids, being so much younger than we were.
Here Simon has 8 years separating him and his brother and he still has that rivalry. Probably because they were both writers. Do you think that Danny Simon recognized the talent that Neil Simon had even when Neil was only 15? He told him he would be a great writer!
What I noticed when I ordered another copy of Helene Hanff's book is that you have to know when it was published as there were two releases, one in 1976 and another in 1988. I have the 1988 copy and also have ordered another one for Mary and my brother, which is HB and has photos. I am anxious to receive it, to see what's in the picture section. You can peruse it, if you want, on our drive up to Jeryn's next week. If its here by then.
Ella Gibbons
May 6, 2000 - 01:50 pm
That was so interesting,
KATIE! - I got that wrong and knew better - it was John Lennon that got shot on the steps of his Dakota apartment, I remember now. And wouldn't you like to sit in on one of those committee meetings of the co-ops just to see what goes on? Is it based on racial or religious preference, monetary success, who knows who? Would make a marvelous book if any one could find out! So, a good New Yorker would just say "our place" - I like that! I'm satisified with that answer, it certainly doesn't discriminate as to whether you own, rent or sub-lease, whatever. Just come to our place on West 89th, huh?
WELCOME LLOYD! - A wordsmith! Describes Neil Simon very well, very few do it as cleverly as he does. Do you suppose that a playwright must learn to be concise with words as he must get his points across in time limits and therefore he does it better? In this book, he never rambles buts make use of every sentence, every chapter - just a delight to read. I'm so glad you came to the discussion and come back often - we have the rest of the book to go through yet. Did you notice I put analogies, metaphors and similies in the header for ideas for writers? Is that true of all books? To be honest, I don't know the difference between the three, I'd have to look them up, but if I were a serious writer I would have to know that, would I?
You haven't found your book yet,
BETTY? For heaven's sakes, go through the bookshelves one more time and look good, we'd love to hear your comments!
Good points,
ANN - about what Mike Nichols had to say. Sometimes that is the only way to fix something as Neil Simon knew. Remember he did 22 complete versions of his first play and NEVER REPEATED a line! As for eating the last bite of a New York deli sandwich, you'll understand that better when we get more into the book. He and his wife never wanted to leave NYC, although they did at various times, but live elsewhere for very long? A playwright? Out of N.Y? Come on!
Can you believe that GILLIGAN'S ISLAND is one of the longest running shows on TV ever and is still going? Has anyone ever seen that show? Who was in it?
I think this bears repeating:
Since the theater is such a unique business, one must view it in a light far different than most entertainment industries. A film opens in anywhere from 400 to 1500 theaters on single day. That film will have anywhere from 3-5 screenings a day in each theater. One single TV show can be viewed by millions on any given night. And while a newly published book, granted, is read by only one person in one chair, there may be 300,000 people sitting in 300,000 chairs all over the country reading that book that day………. Lo, the poor theater. A play opens in one theater, is viewed by not more than 1200 people and reviewed by, let's say, 30 critics, only about 5-6 have some real clout. If those 5-6 critics look unfavorably on your work…………
Need I type more? It shows what a risky business the theater is and how unlikely it is that an unknown playwright will succeed. What a risk-taker NS was!
betty gregory
May 6, 2000 - 02:41 pm
Ella, there is a scene of one of those co-op interviews of a leasing applicant in the movie The Green Card, with Andie McDowell and Gerard Depardu. The scene is funny but is also meant to convey the role discrimination plays. The movie shows several beautiful but very different NY apartments.
Bookie
May 6, 2000 - 07:18 pm
Betty Gregory. You're right about the unexpected ending to a common phrase. Since you can't lay your hands on the book, I'll offer an example from Chapter 2. In reflecting on the suggestion of his wife to live on a farm in Vermont and write magazine articles, he comments, "You can take the boy out of the city, but you'll probably bury him on the farm." Hope you find the book soon.
Ella Gibbons. I did notice the heading on this forum mentioning analogies, metaphors and similies, and I think we all use them daily without ever having to know their exact definitions. To be able to use them effectively and avoid cliches are surely marks of a good writer, but maybe they, too, would be hard pressed to give a dictionary definition of each. Neil Simon uses them as effortlessly as I use a cliche. You have to enjoy the writing of someone who describes a staff announcer as having "the wit and humor of a tree trunk and the personality of someone running a Bingo game."
Diane Church
May 6, 2000 - 10:02 pm
Oh, brother - I ordered the wrong book from the library! What came in yesterday was, "The Play Goes On". (Along with "The Duchess of Bloomsbury Street by Helene Hanff - or is it Hannf? just can't keep that straight). This book, The Play Goes On, picks up where the one you all are reading drops off.
Having a hard time sleeping lately probably because a precious pet, a kitty, Foster, seems to be slipping away from us. So I was up half the night buried in this Neil Simon book before realizing this isn't the right one. That's OK, though - I'm hooked. Thank the good Lord for books!
I will certainly find a copy of "Rewrites" but probaby not in time to join the discussion. But I can enthusiastically recommend that you not stop with Rewrites. I like this guy, Neil Simon, and he certainly has had an interesting life.
betty gregory
May 7, 2000 - 04:11 pm
IT'S ALREADY PUBLISHED??? Terrific!! I didn't know the next part was even written yet. I can't wait to get the "Chapter 2" of his autobiography (pun intended...his play) "The Play Goes On," huh? As in, the show must go on, maybe? Thank you, Diane, even though you're probably not as happy you ordered the wrong book as I am.
Ella Gibbons
May 8, 2000 - 10:17 am
THANKS LLOYD, DIANE AND BETTY for your comments! Am sorry about the Kitty, Diane, I know what pets mean to us and how awful it is to see them suffer and be unable to help.
Yes, I knew NS had come out with his second Memoir - he'll probably live to write a third as he looked in very good health at 73 not too long ago!
However, critics have said the first one is the best - there is more about writing techniques and plays in the one we are discussing; the second book is more about his personal life.
If you are reading it, give us a few comments he might make about his writing techniques, but don't tell us about the book! We all want to read it I'm sure. And do continue to come back here and chat with us from time to time.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I read more than enough about his personal, or I should say sexual, experiences in Chapter 4 than I cared to. To what purpose was this chapter? Did he think he needed to "spice" up the book a bit to be modern? He has certainly graduated from that painfully shy young man and jumped right into the pot of pornography; although I doubt if it could be called that. What do I know? What do I care? Not a whit!
Could a woman write such a chapter? Probably, but I wouldn't want to read it. I'm no doubt from the fuddy-duddy generation that believes sex should stay in the bedroom. Wouldn't we all be better off if we had not heard about Clinton and Monica? Did we need it? Well, that's who I am and that knowledge didn't cost me a dime in analysis.
Chapter 5 was very sweet - who could not like Joan! He described her in the preceding chapter as:
From the first moment I met her in 1952.......I was taken not only by the intense beauty of her face, the lissomeness and athleticism of her body, but by the unpredictability of her nature, the open abundant smile that gave a glimpse into her joyful, sunny, and warm disposition, and then suddenly that stern look that could cross her face as quickly as a summer squall, giving a hint into a darker and angrier side. There was in her a complexity and intelligence I had never met in a woman before.
Ira Gershwin's song mentioned in this chapter brought back a memory - "They're writing songs of love but not for me" - beautiful as was all his music. Will that kind of music ever came back in vogue?
What, if anything, did you find interesting in Chapters 4 and 5?
What is your interpretation of what Neil Simon is saying in the quote in blue in the heading?
Bookie
May 8, 2000 - 12:44 pm
I, too, felt most of Chapter 4 was unnecessary and added little to the book. As I was reading it I couldn't help thinking it's more the sort of thing we see these days on TV and in the movies. As usual, his description of his feelings were very well written. They just seemed to me they were out of place in this book. Was he thinking of using the whole experience as the basis of another play and wanted to try it out here? Out of place or not, here is another of his fine metaphors (at least I think it's a metaphor), "At twenty-one, I was a hormonal fault in the earth just waiting for the girl, the time, and the place to shift my plates."
Chapter 5, however, added significantly to the book in my opinion. It establishes a very solid foundation for what is to follow in terms of his marriage to Joan and the trials, tribulations, and happy times to come.
The blue quote in the heading, I think, is derived from his statement two sentences earlier, "One tends to learn infinitely more from the bad than the good, and one learns nothing from the brilliant." Several places in his book, Mr Simon mentions how much he learned from failed opening nights, the failure of certain scenes or bits of dialogue, or the failure of an entire play to win over a producer. Following each such event he felt he was able to benefit from the experience and become a better writer. Having a strong desire to perfect his craft, he was able to welcome failure as a great learning tool. In the quotation he exhorts us all to do the same. Just my opinion.
-----bookie
Ann Alden
May 9, 2000 - 07:05 am
I haven't been able to figure out the reason for Chap.4 either unless he thought he had to include that since he was chronilogically recalling his life. I did underline the same quote that Bookie mentions as it was an analogy but after looking at it several times, I decided it was "too much, trying to be funny" for me.
The other two quotes that I thought were good are: from chap 7, "You don't change, but what happens is that other people's perspective of you changes. The feeling of happiness you feel inside doesn't compare to the enormous degree of elation they assume is happening to you." And, again from Chap 7, "The truth is, unforunately, that success breeds jealousy and jealousy breeds contrempt." I am more interested in how, as a writer, he progressed and improved his writing and therefore, his plays. Although I don't see how he could improve "Barefoot in the Park" or "The Odd Couple". I don't recall seeing "Star Spangled Girl" and never heard of "After the Fox".
The visuals were terrific of the Chips episode. Again, in Chap 7! Propping up his leg so he could potty, massaging his leg into health, the dog awaiting his arrival and the ensuing massage, and looking accusatory if he was late. Our animals have a way of speaking to us, don't they? I am past Chap 11 but don't have much to comment on before that.
I didn't know that Mike Nichols was an immigrant and l like the way NS credits him with making him smart! Mentioning that his IQ went up 40 points everytime he spoke with Nichols. But, as he mentions, John Steinbeck's comment remains true. You can still only eat two eggs a day! Everything changes with success but nothing changes.
betty gregory
May 9, 2000 - 07:31 am
Here's what I thought of Chapter 4, with some hindsight. The critics and even Simon look at his body of work as an evolution from lightweight to gradually more serious and eventually including some rather dark and complex plays. Some have said he was a late bloomer in the literary sense. I wonder if Neil Simon sees himself as a late bloomer on several fronts....that he grew up slowly as a man and as a playwright.
Ella Gibbons
May 9, 2000 - 07:30 pm
Lloyd Yes, undoubtedly NS meant we learn more from our failures than we do our successes - personally, I learned how to cook from all my failures as a young bride - Oh, Heavens, some of the darndest meals my poor husband had to put up with and his mother was such a marvelous cook; but then that's a foolish comparison to writing plays. But court failure? None of us go around trying to fail - I'm not sure I understand that part of the quote. Or is he saying that in the "attempt" we are courting failure?
However, I didn't learn a thing from almost failing algebra in school! It put me off entirely from higher math and the thought of it still remains a horror!
What did you learn from your failures?
NS says that every play must be about an event - a major event in the lives of the leading characters and he quotes his wonderful BAREFOOT IN THE PARK which remains my favorite and I think
ANN said was one of her favorites also. Is it because of the irrepressible Joan who was his model for the wife in the play? Isn't she a lovely thing in her pictures - smiling in every one of them - and I would have loved to have known her, wouldn't you?
Even though NS had a good writing job waiting for him back home would I - would you - have run off to Europe and spent all the money we had in the bank on a vacation? I envy people who can do such things - I just never thought that way. Again, too careful, too fearful! And he hints that it might have been Joan's idea when he says "Joan, as I mentioned, never minded living on the edge."
BETTY You are saying that possibly NS put in his sexual experience as an example of how slowly he matured in all ways? Possibly! However, we know he grew into writing slowly - he and his brother were writing at an early age, can't remember the sequence here but I know they were still in school and NS was always considered funny by friends and family. And we also know of his great success in his chosen field - as far as I'm concerned his sex life is no interest whatsoever, except as
LLOYD says he may be trying out this "scene" on the public or critics to see how it plays. Who knows what the man is thinking?
When the book group met in Chicago last November, they were doing a tribute to Bob Fosse who is mentioned so fondly and with great admiration by Neil Simon - "Fosse was the one I looked to for guidance and inspiration." Here's a clickable to a site that describes his work - All those magnificent shows!
Bob Fosse Do any of you remember Sid Caesar and Imogene Coca's show? I do vaguely and somehow I can't recall liking them all that well and yet NS says he was brilliant, so that says something about my judgment of show business and, of course, NS was doing some of the writing.
I've learned much about a show or play in reading this book, e.g. a play must never deviate from the ground rules set in the beginning. I'm going to remember that and be more critical of the next play I see.
I ordered BRIGHTON BEACH MEMOIRS from our Library as two video stores I went to didn't have it and I'm anxious to hear the "cousin's" words - NS's feelings about his father - a very strange man. Have you ever heard of anything so bizarre as the man stuffing his clothes just so on the floor for his wife to find as though he was lying there dead! Trying to make his whole family feel guilt! Strange!
However, I almost felt sorry for the father in the last episode that NS described - the indignity he must have felt at asking his son for money - "he was hardly able to look at me as he went." - "it had to be the hardest day of his life."
At the end of Chapter Six NS states "you begin to see a common truth that connects us all." - is he speaking of pain - broken families, lives, hearts ? The pain in all our lives? It is a common truth that one cannot live without pain in some form, isn't it?
I'd like to take time sometime in the near future to get your impression of Neil Simon, not as a playwright or as a big success, but as the man. Think about it!
Bookie
May 9, 2000 - 08:16 pm
Ella I think you probably have the answer on the "courting failure" sentence. We know he was very apprehensive and insecure every time he presented a play to a publisher or had an opening night. He was always certain it would fail. In spite of this, he continued to write and submit his plays, which I guess is "courting failure". Regarding which, I especially liked this description, "The lights blinked, signaling the play was about to start, much in the same manner the electricians try out their voltage prior to executions at Sing Sing Prison. The witnesses filed into the theater."
As for algebra, I flunked Algebra II once, got a D once, and on the third try (with the help of a friend's father who was an engineer)managed to rise to the level of C. You can see from the grade progression what I learned from THAT failure---not much! I quit math at that point and concentrated on Social Studies.
Critics over the years have consistently given Sid Caesar very high marks. I think perhaps I wasn't up to his kind of comedy at that point in my life, but many years later in seeing a few re-runs, I appreciated it more.
Let me close with another of his rules for writing, "I spent another month doodling with words here and there and discovered that you can, if you want, rewrite forever. ....... There is a time to stop, and that applies to most things in life."
-----bookie
P.S. Thanks for the Fosse link!
betty gregory
May 10, 2000 - 01:12 am
Some of you have said you were most interested in the progression of his writing and less interested in his (too) personal life. I must say, I read this autobiography as Simon's attempt to mesh the two, giving us insight into the genesis of each of the plays from a very personal perspective. He makes quite a case for his love of comedy (and the theater in general) being at first his complete escape from the intense family pain (he could live in his fantasy world in his head when he didn't know how to cope), then on to the different stages of his writing career with the unfinished pain at different depths of denial. We've all heard of artists (actors, writers, comedians) with painful histories. I think Simon is attempting to make sense of this great irony---his gift of making people laugh, feel happy, when he has had to struggle to be happy.
Ella Gibbons
May 11, 2000 - 07:46 am
Good morning, LLOYD! - I've put that latest idea in the header and have invited some of the writers to come take a look and agree/disagree with NS's opinion. I smiled at his reference to "executions" at Sing Sing also, it is such a pleasure to come across these analogies in reading, he does it so well. It would be very difficult- too mild a word - terrifying? - after giving birth to a play and spending months, years on the thing to listen to an audience's reaction and read the critics reviews. The only thing that came close to that in my own life is the time my young daughter performed at a piano recital and I was the one terrified, the butterflies were as bats beating against the walls of my stomach. She did poorly, as she forgot the ending of the piece and kept repeating the beginning over and over - cannot remember how she ever got off that stage, but I never put her through that experience again!
BETTY Definitely you are on the mark here - I read this autobiography as Simon's attempt to mesh the two, giving us insight into the genesis of each of the plays from a very personal perspective .
You write very well, but could you expand on this thought - "unfinished pain at different depths of denial."
Do any of us ever finish with pain, particularly the pain of our youth when we are at the formative years and very vulnerable? I believe you are a psychologist and could give us insight on pain and denial.
I'll be back later tonight with more thoughts on the next few chapters.
Ella Gibbons
May 11, 2000 - 05:30 pm
Just watched Brighton Beach Memoirs - a tender, sweet and sad story of a family in 1937 - a Jewish family worrying about relatives in Poland. As you will remember, NS said he put his feelings about his father in the language of the girl cousin in the movie and, to paraphrase it, the girl angrily yelled that she never felt as if she existed and wished often that she had a terrible disease or was in an accident so that she could get close to her parent and love and be loved. A funny line by the young boy in the movie who was wanting to be a ballplayer when he grew up - "Ballplayers have those names like Tony, Al, George - what chance do I have - my mother makes spaghetti with ketchup!"
Try your Library to see if you can get a copy of the video - it's a great one!
ANN thought the dog story was hilarious while I thought the best line in the 7th chapter was when Joan said it was time to go to the hospital to deliver their second child, and while she was getting dressed and ready, NS waited impatiently for her, afraid she would miss one of the great experiences of her life. Funny!
Ella Gibbons
May 13, 2000 - 08:20 am
WHERE IS EVERYONE? WAKE UP! ARE YOU ALL OFF FOR MOTHER'S DAY SOMEWHERE?
DIANE, GAIL G. AND KATIE - ARE YOU STILL WITH US?
DON'T WANT TO BE TALKING TO MYSELF IN HERE!
"Conversation is the art of hearing as well as being heard"
I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU!
Katie Sturtz
May 13, 2000 - 09:03 am
Hello, there, ELLA!
I must admit I'm behind in my reading. I need to turn off the TV and curl up in that easy chair and just go to it! I'll start today...promise! What I have read I've really enjoyed, so my task will not be the least bit difficult.
Love...Katie
Diane Church
May 13, 2000 - 05:03 pm
Well, I finished And the Play Goes On and will do my darndest to get my hands on Rewrites, read like the dickens, and at least have a little real-time discussion here. I will say that I enjoyed the second book so much that I am now especially moved to read the first. I'm anxious to read more about Joan as she was clearly THE love of his life.
betty gregory
May 13, 2000 - 07:02 pm
Diane, N Simon did write about Joan as if she was extraordinarily special to him, the love of his life. I loved reading all his references to her, the tone of respect he used when writing of her, and even after many years of marriage they still seemed so intimate, as if time has drawn them closer. Their mutual dislike of California, especially when they were required to be there off and on, I found so endearing. Those who love New York to the exclusion of every other place and who are in love----probably have a good chance together. And I'll always be glad to know that the top floor apartment in Barefoot in the Park was a copy of N Simon's and Joan's first apartment.
Ella Gibbons
May 14, 2000 - 08:16 am
Katie, Diane and Betty! Glad you found your way back to our discussion and hope you will stay with us awhile! We're about in the middle of the book so you have plenty of time to read and catch up with us. The pictures of Joan in the book are beautiful, emblematic of his love.
We've mentioned the multi-talented Mike Nichols, but I thought you might enjoy a web site (there are many) listing his accomplishments:
Mike Nichols Chapter Eight is Neil Simon's story of the idea for and the writing of
THE ODD COUPLE which is based loosely on his brother and brother's friend; and although interesting I didn't find this chapter as entertaining as others, did you? One good line: "Some plays come easily, some take time, and some feel as though you're pushing Noah's Ark, after the flood, up Mount Arafat, animals included. Hahahaaa
Does anyone know if Art Carney is still living?
Katie Sturtz
May 14, 2000 - 03:15 pm
ELLA...last I heard Art Carney was very much alive and well. Getting up there, but aren't we all?
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
May 15, 2000 - 06:59 am
Hi
KATIE! Happy to hear about Art Carney. Can you imagine him as Felix in THE ODD COUPLE? The part is the antithesis of what he portrayed in the Honeymooners it seems to me.
LLOYD Are you still here? What did you think of the next few chapters up to Chapter 15? Is NS holding your interest?
Any more writing advice to put in the heading?
THE AFTERMATH, the short Chapter Nine, pushes NS's life along on its path to more success as they decide to leave America and journey in Europe.
I loved the description of life in London didn't you? Wouldn't that be great to do - although I doubt if any of us would have anything like the invitations to dinners and parties to meet the inner circle of London's theatrical elite.
English cocktail parties looked very much as they did in plays by Noel Coward and Terence Rattigan. At least they still did in the sixties. The conversations were witty and intelligent, sometimes silly, often scandalous, occasionally funny…..The talk dealt mostly with British politics, British finance, British sex mores, and the British theater
Did he embellish the story of meeting with Princess Margaret Rose and Lord Snowdon, do you think? I wonder if it found its way into one of his plays
Ann Alden
May 15, 2000 - 07:18 am
Ella, I finished the book last night and now must go back and pick up on your questions. I must admit that I didn't like the last few chapters just because they were repetitive. I don't think that I appreciate the story of each play that he wrote after reading about 6 or 7. Sorry!
Ella Gibbons
May 15, 2000 - 10:36 am
Don't be sorry, ANN I somewhat agree with you that the last half of the book was less interesting in many ways than the first. Does anyone else? However, in each chapter there is a piece of Neil Simon that reveals the man and his mission in life whether it be the writing of a play or the experiences that led to the writing.
Those of you who read his newest book - did it hold your interest all the way through?
richard Casparius
May 15, 2000 - 11:07 am
Hi Ella I decided to track you down. Looks like you got a good thing going regarding Neil Simon. i will call the library and if they don't have it I will buy the book as you suggested.
And....I may even join in your discussion. Later Jeanne
Diane Church
May 15, 2000 - 03:00 pm
Ella, there WERE chunks of the second book that were boring. Don't remember specifics but I remember thinking that NS could have used a good editor to tidy things up a bit. But, then, most of the book was enjoyable so I'm glad I read it.
Ella Gibbons
May 15, 2000 - 04:42 pm
Hello and Welcome Jeannie! Hurry and get the book as we are halfway through our discussion and would love for you to be part of it. It's an easy read if you just go through it without dissecting it as we have been doing.
Thanks for answering the question, Diane - I felt what Ann described also and, unconsciously, that must be the reason I posted just the first three chapters to begin the discussion. They were full of the analogies we talked about and his advice about writing. Perhaps NS ought to stick to plays? They are shorter and he obviously knows what he's doing in that field.
No, I can't say that. I found the book wonderfully enjoyable - all of it truthfully. Unlike Ann, I like the descriptions of the plays, the actors, the behind-the-scenes action. It was just slower in the second half and I felt he took less time with it - yes, his editor should have advised him - if he had the nerve!!!!
Diane Do get the book, I guarantee you'll enjoy.
Ella Gibbons
May 16, 2000 - 07:02 am
Shall we conclude our discussion here? Anyone still interested in continuing?
There are many more points Neil Simon has made about the theatrical world if we want to talk about them. But I don't want to be on a soapbox alone. Let me know.
betty gregory
May 16, 2000 - 08:43 am
I've concluded that this missing book got into the to-the-library box, so I apologize for my pitiful participation. I also wonder if this book is the kind that is a wonderful read but, for some reason, doesn't translate into an indepth discussion. Sometimes I can't tell the difference, equating my enjoyment with anticipation of a good discussion. At any rate, I really loved reading about Neil Simon's life and craft/skill/genious. Just think, we might not have had all his plays to enjoy if he had not been willing to rewrite that first play over and over and over....
Bookie
May 16, 2000 - 07:38 pm
Ella:
Sorry. I haven't been posting lately for some reason, and now I find you might close this discussion. Since I haven't really been able to get into Neil Simon's mind to understand why he did or didn't do certain things, I just haven't had many comments to make. I did enjoy the book and reading others' comments, though, and would recommend it to anyone looking for a good read and an insight into the world of theater. Never having been able to attend many productions, much less view what goes on behind the scenes, the book was an eye opener for me. This coupled with his command of the language held my attention to the end. Many times the most enjoyment I get from reading is seeing a true wordmaster at work, and I put NS in that category along with S.J. Perelman and Max Beerbohm, just to name a couple that come readily to mind. Thanks for introducing me to the book.
-----bookie
Ann Alden
May 17, 2000 - 06:45 am
For me, S J Perlman, stands alone! But, I love NS's plays and have seen most of them either as movies or plays. His portrayal of situations in his characters lives is outstanding. I think that he is a better playwright than book author. I am ready to end this discussion as I have started in another one or two and can't keep them separate for some reason. I am glad that I read the book but will probably not read the newest one.
Bookie
May 17, 2000 - 09:15 am
Ann Alden:
You're quite right, of course. Perelman does stand alone. There is no way I could equate NS with SJP. If you haven't already read it, you might be interested in DON'T TREAD ON ME, The Selected Letters of S.J. Perelman, edited by Prudence Crowther, Viking 1987. Much of his correspondence is as good or better than his commercially published material.
----bookie
Ella Gibbons
May 17, 2000 - 04:57 pm
Oh, I haven't read a thing by SJPerlman, so I will remedy that - thanks Ann and Lloyd . Another author I particularly like, one that brings smiles, is Art Buchwald - I've read two of his; LEAVING HOME and LIVING IN PARIS (or something like that).
I can't leave Neil Simon without a few more words from the last chapters of the book; one wherein he states the reasons for analysis - …each success put me more in the spotlight, despite the fact that my appearing in news interviews and TV talk shows was the very opposite of my true nature. I was shy, introverted, nervous, and frightened. I was beginning to wonder who I really was.
It was frustrating he states to attempt to meld the two beings that dwelled simultaneously in my mind and have them become friends. And concludes that Joan was the anchor, the only one that both Neil the person and Neil the writer trusted.
During the next few years NS felt - if not quite on top of the world, at least that I was living on one of the higher floors He was married to a wonderful girl, had two adorable daughters, and he approaches middle age - You suddenly become aware that old people you know weren't always old. It was not their occupation of life, as we supposed. ….. You will have to make the same journey, taking on the same pains, the same aches……your insight into the world becomes much larger, more objective and unavoidably clearer
I'm a student in Behavioral Science 101, not in an academic way, but as an investigator of how we live our daily lives and of the way we cause ourselves so much angst and pain through our unexplainable, absurd behavior.
The last chapter must have been very painful to write, he just told the facts. He had lost his anchor.
Yes, I will read his latest book as I enjoyed this one very much - a brief look into the life of one of America's greatest playwrights. Whether well done or not, and I would vote well done, it was his attempt to explain where his characters and plots came from and for no other reason than that it was well worth reading.
Thanks so much to all of you who have had a part in this discussion - I enjoyed our time together and hope to meet you in another book discussion soon!
I will leave this discussion open for a few more days if anyone would like to make further comments.
Katie Sturtz
May 17, 2000 - 08:18 pm
Oh, ELLA...I am just getting into the book! Don't leave me now! You know me...I'll probably have plenty to say. I hope! Am going to supervise some painting here this weekend, and have no idea how much time that will take.
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
May 18, 2000 - 04:17 pm
Katie - I'll look in here and leave it open, so post away, I want to hear what you have to say about NS and the book! Yes, I do know you and you are so witty and fun to be around and am so looking forward to seeing you soon again!
Katie Sturtz
May 18, 2000 - 05:42 pm
Thank you, ELLA! My head is growing by leaps and bounds! Are we going to have a Pajama Party in Perrysburg? PAT and I will be staying over for sure. Will email...
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
May 19, 2000 - 04:42 pm
KATIE! KATIE! ARE YOU AROUND? A library visit today yielded NS's second memoir so I started on it this afternoon and if you are game to continue this discussion I'll add a little now and then. Perhaps those who read his second book will post thoughts?
I'm so amused by his descriptions of cities, particularly Los Angeles. In his first memoir, he says:
In New York when it's 16 degrees in the winter, it's 78 in Los Angeles. And in New York, when it's 102 in the summer, it's 78 in Los Angeles. However, in New York there are 4 million interesting people and only 78 in Los Angeles.
True?????
And he had something else to say either about San Francisco or L.A., can't remember exactly - something about "damp" and a "tramp." Can you find it Katie?
In this book, here's L.A:
I like cities that are laid out in grids, cities like New York and Paris. They have a center which extends out to all points of the city. Los Angeles is laid out like laundry strewn about on a windy desert, which, when giving directions, makes about as much sense as saying, 'Go left at the blue denim shirt, then make a right at the tan sock which turns into a gray sock and then when you get to the white pajama top, make a sharp right at the Calvin Klein undershirt, unless it's blown away."
Hahaha, am chuckling as I type it!
Katie Sturtz
May 19, 2000 - 05:34 pm
ELLA...that does it! I will read this weekend, even as Paul the Painter does my livingroom. You can't throw out quotes like that and expect me to IGNORE them! Guilty, guilty for not being able to answer your question, but never fear...I'll let you know as soon as I read it. This book is getting better and better! Keep talking!
Love...Katie
Diane Church
May 19, 2000 - 08:59 pm
Well, this is certainly going to be interesting. Ella, you chose to quote two descriptions that I found particularly interesting, being now an ex -New Yorker and an ex-Los Angeleno.
And, guess what! I just picked up my library copy of Rewrites today. And, in the very short section I've read, am loving it. So good to be getting to know Joan after only reading about her in the past tense. Not sure but I think NS's sense of humor is coming across better than in his second book. Oh, I love his description of his and Joan's Village apartment. Reading this right in close proximity to Helene Hannf's Apple of my Eye and Letter from New York is making me very nostalgic!
Ella Gibbons
May 20, 2000 - 07:08 am
Hi DIANE - well, aren't we all something - we just weren't ready to give up on NS! I'm reading HH's book also - I bought the paperback one and then got the hard copy from the Library - if we go back to NYC for our bookfest, Diane, as we did two years ago, you'll have to join us - and experience the real thing again. Katie was there, but she's been to NYC loads of times - that was my 3rd visit and the city changes so much you could go every year.
The description of the first apartment you refer to is funny - but how would you really like to live in that shoebox - where would we put our computers? He doesn't give dimensions - not the type to think in feet and inches, is he?
Welcome back!
Katie Sturtz
May 20, 2000 - 10:14 am
ELLA and DIANE..."Barefoot In the Park" will be on TCM at 5:00 today! I'm gonna watch it...again! Keep in mind that the movie was made in 1967, so it's 33 years old! No wonder everyone looks so gorgeous. Sigh.
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
May 20, 2000 - 04:16 pm
Katie - Past 5:00 - but I saw it just about a month ago, loved it! Now I forget who played it on Broadway after seeing the film. And did NS write the screenplay for this? He's done so much it is difficult to remember.
Diane Church
May 20, 2000 - 04:48 pm
Katie - many thanks for the notice but out here in the sticks we don't have cable (I assume that's what TCM is?).
This is the darndest thing but I can't remember where I saw Barefoot - either in New York or in Los Angeles (sounds like such a "cosmopolitan" thing to say but really, I'm not - just forgetful). But I DO remember a very young Richard Benjamin and his pretty wife, Paula Prentiss, playing the leads.
Or was it a movie? Anyway, I loved it.
Ella Gibbons
May 20, 2000 - 05:22 pm
Well, of course, you are cosmopolitan, DIANE, having lived in such cities as New York and L.A. and I, for one, don't envy that, because I love to visit the biggies but don't want to live there (such a worn-out cliche) but true. By the way, which did you like the best or is there such a thing as comparing those two?
The movie starred Redford and a very young (she has been young forever) Jane Fonda and Mildred Natwick as her mother who was very funny in the movie. Look in the Index in the back of the book under Barefoot and it will give you the page numbers - I discovered that halfway through the book. But I think you are correct that it was Richard Benjamin - the only time I've ever seen him was in "Goodbye Columbus", which I remember because at the time it was somewhat shocking to me. Unmarried couples talking about using condoms and such - now they hand them out free everywhere don't they?
Diane Church
May 20, 2000 - 05:39 pm
Oh Ella, don't get me started! I grew up an hour from NYC but lived in the Village for a year after graduating. I then lived in and around L.A. for oh, another 30 years. There's just no question - I love NY and will always miss it. L.Å. certainly had some nice features but couldn't wait to leave it. And am so much happier being back in a small town again. You're right - the biggies are fun to visit but no place to live. At least not for too long. And not for people who are basically "small-town people".
I remember "Goodbye Columbus", too. More than the condom discussion, I remember the shower scene. Allie Mc Graw - wasn't she NAKED?
Gotta run - we just decided to see the local performance of Brigadoon. Wheee!
Ella Gibbons
May 22, 2000 - 11:40 am
KATIE! KATIE! Did you do any reading over the weekend? Did Paul, the painter, finish up? No more excuses, sit and read and meanwhile, I'll give you a couple more definitions of L.A. Is it a bit much? You know, I think NS's humor in this second book is forced, it hasn't come easily. And I'm not laughing out loud as I did in the first. Oh, well.
I flew out the next morning, and as we neared Los Angeles, I looked down and saw a desert, then the mountains, then the miles and miles of small houses bunched together and freeways circling and entwining each other endlessly like a massive nest of anacondas with millions of flies on their backs.
Isn't that a horrible description, but you can picture it that way in your mind's eye! I should send all these descriptions of L.A. to my favorite nephew who is (boo,hoo) moving to L.A. next year to get married and live there. Depends upon who you are with I guess whether you are happy in a place or not. He swears the air is better and the freeways don't bother him.
It (L.A.) made New York seem like a small town to me. I knew where you could find a store on 62nd Street where they only sold buttons...........In Los Angeles you would never just run into a friend on the street. The first year and a half I was there, walking the streets at ten in the morning in Beverly Hills for a dentist appointment, there was not a soul to be seen. I thought every day was either Sunday, the Fourth of July or one of the Jewish High Holidays.
NS gave a marvelous description of Richard Dreyfuss, who played the lead in THE GOODBYE GIRL. I also think he's a marvelous actor.
DIANE! Are you enjoying the REWRITES book? Where are you in it?
Ella Gibbons
May 24, 2000 - 07:42 am
We, no doubt, have exhausted our comments on Neil Simon, so if there are no further objections I will archive this discussion tomorrow.
Katie Sturtz
May 24, 2000 - 10:21 am
Ah, ELLA...so sorry I haven't kept up, but things are looking better around here. My only comment at this point refers to yours above...I've been to L.A. to change planes, and that's it! But...I knew where I was the minute I looked around the airport! The people were different! The clothing, hair, attitudes seemed to me to be quite far out. My sister couldn't see it, but she travels more than I do. I have NOT noticed this in NYC!
See you around, Luv...and in Perrysburg in 3½ weeks! Happy day!
Love...Katie
Ella Gibbons
May 24, 2000 - 12:00 pm
Right, Katie, see you there! Enjoy the rest of the book - I know you will. I just finished NS's second volume (posted something from it in the Library) and particularly enjoyed the poignant stories of his mother.
I will archive this tomorrow, giving anyone else a chance to comment.