Other Side of the River ~ Alex Kotlowitz ~ 11/98 ~ Export

The Other Side of the River	by Alex Kotlowitz
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Synopsis

From the author of the bestselling "There Are No Children Here" comes the story of St. Joseph, a mostly white town in Michigan, and the predominately black town of Benton Harbor in the same state--and the mysterious death of an African-American youth that exposes this nation's still-gaping racial divide. 352 pp.
Discussion Leader was:Ella Gibbons

"I am a white resident of St. Joseph, Michigan. . .a transplant, not a native. We moved here in June 1991, just as the Eric McGinnis story hit the headlines. I was outraged by what I read in the papers about it then and the rumors I heard around "White St. Joe," not because I believed he had been lynched, but because the bigotry and misunderstanding on both sides of the river were so apparent." - A reader from St. Joseph, Michigan

This author ...tells the gripping story of a mysterious death in southwest Michigan. A black teenager surfaces in the St. Joseph River, drowned. How did he get there? The towns of Benton Harbor and St. Joseph, divided by both race and the river, grapple with the possibilities in this maddeningly difficult case. The book is best at plumbing the racial psychology of these mutually suspicious communities. The Other Side of the River has that can't-put-it-down quality found in the best narrative nonfiction, and it speaks to issues affecting all of America. - Politics and Current Events Editor

If you lived in either of these towns, would you talk to this author/journalist? Would you feel secure living in either town? Why do you think the author picked these two towns to write about?

Is the author helping or harming race relations by writing this book?

Has the author (a white big-city reporter) been fair, accurate and unbiased in this book to both towns?

These are a few questions that came to mind as I read the book.

Would anyone who is interested in this discussion, PLEASE SIGN IN!

Reminds me of that old show on TV - was it "What's My Line?"

Anyway, I am going to post a few questions that might be interesting to answer as we go along in the book.

Does anyone know if the B&L has ever discussed a non-fiction book concerning racial issues? Or for that matter, fiction? I don't believe we have since I have been online - about a year and a half. As it is an issue that(plagues, plagued, will plague) America, it would be timely to do so IMHO (I just learned that meant In My Humble Opinion, so I had to use it).

I'm definitely "In" with you on this one, so no matter what, you won't be alone.

Best

Hi Ella Haven't gotten the book yet, but will try to get it tomorrow. You can visit the library with me. Have you ever been to MY library? See you tomorrow

Welcome Everyone!

Shall we start right in? On page 2 note that the author states "…. A reporter for the HERALD-PALLADIUM, the LOCAL newspaper…." Do you know which town this newspaper is published in (remember that the author is writing a book about TWO towns, but says the LOCAL newspaper).

It is informative to keep this newspaper in mind as we read along in the book.

Did you notice on page 4 the reference to MONEY magazine stating that the Benton Harbor metropolitan area, which includes the white town of St. Joseph, was the WORST place to live in the nation? And that everyone, of course, blamed Benton Harbor (the black town) for the rating? Right away, one has the feeling I'm glad no one has said that about my town or are you saying to yourself "How does that make these two towns feel to be publicized this way?"

Just a few thoughts to get us started on our way through this fascinating book. Comments anyone? (Hi Caspar - who is in reality my sister, Jeannie, and who promises to keep to the schedule and NOT FINISH THE BOOK RIGHT AWAY) She has done that before and then wants to put it aside and get on with the next one. Not this time!

The whole flavor of the place is visualizable as a river between two populated areas (essentially a metropolitan artea) with the people on one side 95% Black and on the other side 95% white.

Best

Starting Chapter 3 the author describes St. Joseph's - a model town, with expensive boutiques, historic homes, beautiful waterfront, beaches - summer homes built by the wealthy from Chicago. America's pride and joy, a perfect town, no crime to speak of, admirable in every way and with all eyes turned inward with self satisfaction.

We spent a leisurely 7-8 days traveling up through Michigan last summer, the west side with beautiful blue Lake Michigan, all the way to the Upper Pennisula and even more beautiful LaKe Superior - we were so struck with the beauty of the water we took innumerable pictures of it and felt foolish when we got them developed. Almost as though we have spent our lives in a desert! But it is a beautiful state!

Then you begin Chapter 4 with a "fenced-in former factory site in Benton Harber (across the river), now an expanse of broken bricks, rubble and weeds," a town where in eight months they had 8 homicides and the town was so poor that its five police cars had been repossessed and the fire dept's one pumper used a garden hose.

And it's just across the river! And there begins the tale.

Worse, As it unfolds, I see many of our metropolitan areas with circumstances very similar. Some loci are mitigated by the inclusion of county-wide government, some have benefitted from forced bussing (I have mixed feelings about that), Most are more due to economics that to color, but the impressions, attitudes and results are the same, and the cure likely falls with "Integration", not so much of color as of economic status.

Best

Can you believe our library hasn't ordered this book due to it's "racial" nature!! Here in Lake Co. IN, with Gary the predominant city!! But we WERE a quiet country town and many old timers still have that mentality. ie Crown Point has no drug problem, etc. It's on order thru interlibrary loan.

BUT--I have some comments. My daughter lives in Benton Harbor, as sil works in St. Joe. Only housing they could afford. Live in mixed area, on a busy almost commercial street. Well kept up houses and yards--actually theirs needs more work than the neighbors!! Get along fine with the neighbors. It's a live and let live situation. Live near the Jr. High, no problems. Grandson goes to public schools, altho now he's in an Elementary Creative Arts Academy. With one classroom for each grade and max of 25 kids in each class, but in reality only about 20-22. Excellent education, stress academics before Arts.(yes, he's a minority, but no problems, weren't in other school either and he wasa only white in class besides teacher--took him twao weeks to notice--kindergarten--says something about society doesn't it?) School's very community oriented. Gramma's saving pop top pull rings for Ronald McDonald House, Campbell's Labels, General Mills Boxtops for education, pennies for cancer research, etc.

Shop there alot when I'm up there,BH has the Meijer, Orchards Mall, Aldi, Target, etc. The mall has low occupancy rating tho, but so does ours here.

We've found that service at local resturants is bad, even with the high unemployment rate. But I've been noticing it around here too.

Zenith closed their doors within the past two years. Major employers, but St. Joe people worked there too. Whirlpool and Maytag cut back too. But area is coming back, not downtown tho, but outskirts, where daughter lives. And St. Joe is mostly tourist too, not really a downtown shopping area.

The living is nice with all the beaches on Lake Mich. in St. Joe, they really take advantage of the water. No problems, especially Silver Beach which is covered with Volleyball areas. Good playground for younger ones too. Pier is good for walking and fishing all the way to the lighthouse. We take advantage of it all the time.

OK, enough of my expounding without readidng the book, will be back when I get my hands on it with more observations.

Ella, I'd live in Benton Harbor, but NO WAY will even go to GARY, IN!!!

Ella

I am lurking here while reading that other book, "A Civil Suit" for the Wednesday library discussion.

But, I am getting a copy of this book that night and will join in the discussion then.

I'm here, too, and I've read the first 44 pages. I like the way he writes and I also appreciate having Ruth's first hand knowledge of the actual places. I enjoyed the map in the inside front cover, was just astounded to see Indiana, Illinois and Michigan all there together. I think we need to have our Books Conference there next year. Or Disney World. Or......

Anyway, he's pretty well delinated the two towns and I loved his descriptions of the boiling water.

Ginny

Oh pleasse do have the books gathering in the Chicago area, or the South Bend area--Notre Dame has good facilities,too. We have the Star Plaza at the Radisson with outstanding entertainers coming in. Also excellent facilities for meetings, etc. Also shuttle to OHare. Need I go on? All down here in south county, "safe". LOL Do it in late summer, early fall and all sorts of festivals abound. Lots to see and do, not withstanding the5 casino boats on Lake Michigan nearby. That's what we do with our Lake Mich. property, that and steel mills, oil refineries!! Not like St. Joe area!!

I read the first chapter online this morning. I don't know, maybe we (family) live a sheltered life, but have not experienced bad Karma in BH. Have seen no problems at school. But like I said it's elementary school, they have to be taught to hate, like the song from South Pacific says!! I firmly believe that.

Hi Ruth, Ginny and Ann: Such a good group.

Ruth: Cannot believe a librarian told you that "due to its racial nature" they did not order the book!! Partial censorship? But glad you are getting it and many of the points that you brought up are covered in the book; the history of Benton Harbor, the outlying areas of the town (where Ruth McGinnes lives-mother of the teenager who was drowned). We'll wait until you and Ann get the book to get into it more.

These lst five chapters are rather like an outline and then the author fleshes them out. I know we'll all have much to say about this book and the author.

When asked why he chose these 2 towns to write about, (pg.10) the author believes they are "typical of how most of us live: physically and spiritually isolated from one another." True? To some extent, perhaps? More so than when we were children? Are these two towns typical?

Our Benton Harbor is near the fringes of our downtown area and reaching out. However, over the years ethnic neighborhoods are sprung up where the poor, both black and white, used to live and houses are slowly being fixed up - huge old beautiful houses that had been divided far too many times into makeshift apartments. We now have Italian Village, Victorian Village, German Village, etc. Also the city has provided very low interest rates in some poor neighborhoods for loans if tenants want to buy.

Must get off the pulpit as I have a tendency to talk too much - we'll have all the time in the world to discuss what different cities are doing. "There but for the Grace of God, go I." I am not overly religious, but we could all have been born black and our ancestors have been slaves. Did you see the white woman on TV news last night that has as her ancestors, along with mixtures of others, the blood of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, his slave?

Ann: That book you are going to discuss is "A Civil Action" (not suit)- one that garnered much interest here in the book groups (and you can read the discussion in the archives - a fascinating book)! Hope you ordered your copy of this book sent from the Main Library, because I took Gahanna's copy - hehehe! First come, you know.

Librarian didn't "tell" me, just and understood thing. It "wouldn't be of much interest here"

Ruth: We are posting at the same time! I didn't know you can read the first chapter online! Shall I do a clickable?

I'm for having our Bookies group convention in Chicago, you are, Jeryn is - we'll get something going here, I bet. Ginny, are you listening?

My daughter lived in a racially mixed neighborhood (in fact, she was one of the few whites on the street) while attending the U. of Pitt. When we first went to visit her there, I was flabbergasted not because of the neighborhood, but because of this cheap apt. she had rented. Honest, if you saw it you would agree. And less than a year later, the whole house was condemned - YES! because it had too many apartments in it. But she's so darn independent, wouldn't let us help her financially as she was getting her Ph.D. - said she had to live cheap. And she did for 5 years.

Sometimes, Ruth, children (when very small) don't notice the color of the skin, particularly this is true in these large day care centers. But I will never forget reading the paper of a black female freshman at OSU in which she tells of how hurt she was by a child on a city bus pointing to her and asking her Mother why she looked so different! In their innocence they don't understand - and this college student understood that, but still......

Not only did Jefferson apparantly have an illegitimate child (Now essentially proven), but also he denied it, the girl was about 14-16 when the affair began, and she was his wife's illegitimate half sister.

Clinton and Kennedy were just amateurs.

Best

You got that right, LJ!

I heard a discussion on NPR yesterday about Jefferson and his two different lifestyles. The public Jefferson is evidently the persona that we have always been taught but the private Jefferson is not our hero. Has anyone seen the movie with Nick Nolte as Jefferson? Very interesting especially when the author interviews the grandchildren of Jefferson. So, Mr.Jefferson is no different than the rest of us when it comes to racism.

I thought a long time about where I was raised and how I felt and always thought that I was not racially bent but some things that happened later proved me mistaken. We are all afraid of differences in people--be it color,race, religion, schooling. In this book, you can see the mistaken beliefs of both sides of the river.

Yes, Ann, I agree - fear drives us, differences drive the fear. Do you think racial relations have become worse or better since our high school years - and on into the 40's and 50's?

Has the Civil Rights Act and Affirmative Action helped? Should we continue Affirmative Action (now there's a subject we could spend a lot of time discussing!)

Perhaps we can list the ways in which racial relations have improved? Become worse, in your opinion?

I took The Other Side of the River with me to the Polls yesterday, hahahahah, thinking that I might pull it out hahahahaha, SUCH crowds, but at lunch break who should I be eating with but a native of the area, so I DID pull it out, and now have to pass the book along, as she thought it would be fascinating!! Small world.

Back in a mo,

Ginny

Ginny, That's a "Cop-out"

Best,

Meagapo

No, it's a "time out," no time! hahahah

GAGS

Ginny - you're not going to pass that book along before you finish reading it certainly! You're in S. Carolina, right? What is the racial situation there? I have never lived in the south, but realize it is different there.

Am I sensing this is a subject that seniors don't want to discuss?

I had a neighbor who, having lived in the north all her life, moved to the deep south and couldn't believe the hostility between the two races. She put her children into private schools because of the violence. Is this because of the history there?

Ann: Maybe this is why your attitude has changed - did living in the south change you? Not that the North is perfect by any means.

What did you make of those 3-4 pages the author used to describe the composite sketches of the black men on his walls (pg.16-20). Here was a white sheriff in a white town and you walk in his office and see these sketches and I would wonder why he keeps them wouldn't you? Did you believe what the sheriff said? Why did the author tell that story - when it doesn't seem relevant to me.

There was a good program on C-Span last night on "Attitudes toward our American Heroes" - I tuned in late (was getting a bit tired of election news by then. But the program made me think of the positive role models black children have today - in all fields, education, politics, business, media. (In fact, many people have speculated that if Colin Powell could be persuaded to run for President, he would win.) Much more so than when we were young which is a step in the right direction for both black and white. I also believe there is a strong middle class of Afro-Americans in society today which was not true when we were young.

What do you think? Better - worse?

OOPS! No no no no, Guys, I didn't give the book away! I like the book very much. I told her she could have it when we were thru discussing it!!

I think the book is very well written.

I also think racism is not a geographic thing. Some areas of Boston rival anything anywhere for nastiness. Ignorance and want we'll always have with us.

When I came south from the urban north to go to college in 1961, I found many amazing things, would line up at the bus stop and find all the black people lining up behind me. Wouldn't go ahead. I like to sit in the back of the bus, that caused lots of stares. There were separate bathrooms and water fountains. There was the KKK. It was habit and tradition and it all needed to die, and so it has. I think the South has done a remarkable job of true restoration of human rights and has left many many areas of the country in the shade.

There's no excuse for anybody of any race or nationality to be called names or thought of in a negative way, and it's a perfect example of "all that it takes for evil to triumph is for one good man to be silent."

But that's my opinion, but it is my opinion. I also think that not knowing a wide variety of people leads to a fear of one particular group or groups ("they're taking ALL our jobs!") and consequently bad relations.

Ginny

Interesting comments so far. Hey, Ginny no fair. From the way things are going trying to get book from library I thought I could havae first dibs on it when you finished!! Did you work the polls too yesterday? We were swamped and only got a sort of break at lunchtime. Our count was 313 and other precinct had 303. And we had about 30-40 in line when we closed the doors! One very long day!!

My first close inter-racial experiences were when I went ot college in the late 50s. Not much interaction, and the BIG scandal on campus was when we had a student president who had an interracial marriage. Thing of it was that he also was an INDEPENDENT, not a Greek, and that made matters worse, as the Greeks had things sewn up for years previous. Don't know which was more scandalous, him being an independent or him being black with a white wife!!

Yes, Ruth, I'm a Poll Manager. In the interest of our topic here, it might be interesting to know that Tuesday South Carolina voted away the law which forbade interracial marriages.

Now I didn't know, Ruth, that YOU were a reference librarian!!!

Wonderful day at the Polls, big crowds, very exciting.

Ginny

I have the book and very much want to join this discussion... now if I can just find time to read it!

Glad to hear SC finally got rid of such an archaic law. I guess I'm a little surprised it would have to be done by popular vote?!? Well, just so it's gone!

Ruth, another poll worker?!? And Ginny a poll MANAGER! Predictable, with her leadership qualities! I work as a lowly "clerk" with a team of three other ladies [our "manager" is called a "judge" here in Ohio]; it's always an interesting day and fun to see all the neighbors passing through.

znNooooooooooooo, dear ones, our Ginny is a Poll Manager and the BIG CAHOONA, our Noble Leader is called something else, not judge, as her husband IS a Supreme Court Judge, but something else, can't remember what! So WEEEEEEEEEEEEEee are all Poll Managers, fancy title for sore feet!!!

hahahahah

Ginny

Well, Ginny, it sounds much more impressive than "clerk" for sure! I correct myself--our group leader is called a "presiding judge". It's just a title; she's not a real judge whatsoever! In our precinct, we're more likely to get sore rear ends from sitting on horrible chairs all day than the sore feet!! Smart ones bring cushions...

Ginny,

About "they're taking ALL the jobs", isn't that too bad! If the people were willing to work (and many times, at less than we would accept), they are hired. This saying really was heard a lot in California when we lived there but it referred to the Hispanics and the Asians out there. The Californians have no problem with accepting the blacks and are horrified by the things that happen back East. But, they ignore the existence of South Los Angeles and all of its problems. So, there is racism, of one kind or another, everywhere you go. In England, its the Indians and now the Africans. What is it we are afraid of?

Ella,

Yes, I did change my mind about racism when I moved to Texas in the 50's. I also sat in the back of the bus and the driver just refused to move the bus unless I moved. I didn't! And, he had a schedule to keep, so couldn't do much about it. But, I was in culture shock when we lived there. With the separate schools, separate doors to public places, no public bathrooms and few water fountains. It was awful! I just couldn't believe it! Have you read "Black Like Me"? I really wasn't sure about the sheriff in this book. He seemed to just give up after a while and didn't seem very curious about who might have killed the boy. I find it questionable that no one really knew what happened.

I think that the most important thing we can do is to try to understand all these mechanisms of bigotry. Youall have touched upon some very significant points, and there are several more we might consider. I've lived as a white minority person in a culture which was 95% black. Among other things (Although I was already aware of it) it became apparant that there are proportional numbers of black bigots to compare with white ones. I learned that many if not most people become color blind when a minority person speaks the local language (West Indian dialect), and that minorities are essentially always assumed to be wrong; e.g. Sudden death was virtually always attributed to "Poisoning" rather than a stroke or heart attack, and no amount of arguement would convince the locals otherwise. Many times I've heard it said that "You white people, you eat anything!" (referring e.g. to stuffed olives with pimento) or "White women, they do ANYTHING" (Climbing to the top of the local mountain)

My most important, predominant and frequent observation was that most things we think of as color coded are realy a matter of economics and class, poverty and relative wealth.

Best

Interesting observations LJ, and very astute!

Also interesting as to terminology of poll workers. Top dog is inspector, then there are two clerks one for each party. Two judges, again one for each party. Then the poll book holders, each paratay pays for one. Precinct committeeman is usually a poll watcher.

I wasn't in my precinct. A friend is inspector and needed a willing body.

Hah, we don't do it that way. We've got one Poll Whatever: the Big Kahuna, and then the rest of us have badges which say Poll Manager. We do it all: open the machines, take turns on the books, no political parties involved at all! All from the Election Commission. Take training there. Interesting.

One of the more interesting things here is the constantly changing laws about husband and wife voting together. Hubby enters the booth with wife? First they can, then they can't then they can, now, this year, they can't again, unless the wife or husband is INCAPABLE of voting without them. But they must state so.

I only had one problem with that: a young couple, he was going right on in, holding a darling baby. I said Nope, unless she is incapable. She didn't like that ONE bit and said not on your life, and got to vote the way she wanted. He just wanted to show her how, really, we've got these new computer machines, but she did just fine. Interesting. Then I had a deaf couple, and the Head of the workers, forget her title, had showed them how to vote. When it came their turns, he was all for going in and helping HER, too: once again, she let him know flatly she would go alone, and she took less time than he did, so I guess she knew her stuff!

In our little rural district, we always have a large percent of the voters registered to vote, and many come with husbands and wives, come together. It's kind of touching.

Ginny

Wanted to hurriedly say goodbye to all of you as I'm packing for our first cruise ever. Am excited about going now that the time has come and, particularly, since I've had a lingering cough and cold that won't go away. Perhaps the sun will fix that? Someone said I would really suffer on the plane because my head is stuffed up - I'll just blow and blow until I blow my head off I guess, it's what I've been doing anyway.

Have a good time discussing everything until I get back. Want to read everything then.

ANN WILL TAKE MY PLACE (IF A DISCUSSION LEADER IS NECESSARY - THANKS, ANN)

Ruth - want you to tell us if what this author talks about is true or false about Benton Harbor.

Hey, Ginny - have your feet recovered yet? Better get them in good shape for NYC!!!

LJ: I, too, have been a white minority - when I worked for 10 years as a secretary in an office at OSU. It was a wonderful experience for me and I learned so much. Became friends with many black students and personnel. If we could only make Martin Luther King's dream come true: "....when people will be judged, not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character!"

Jeryn: So happy to have you here! I think you'll enjoy the book and can't wait until I get back to read everybody's comments. Well, of course, I CAN. Will be sitting on deck in an easy chair with a book on my lap. Found a good autobiography - David Mixner's "Stranger Among Friends." Looks good.

Hi ya'll

If we are still discussing the book, tee hee, I was considering Ella's questions at the top. In my opinion, the author has seemed to do a fair job of reporting the story, giving both sides fair coverage. Whether the book will make race relations improve, I'm doubtful about that. Unless, it helps us understand the different sides better. I liked LJ's comment as to how we all have different reactions to people depending on who is in the majority at the time.

Did you feel that the author painted a good picture of these two places? I think he did a great job of letting the reader get the picture of the two towns.Maybe this would be a good book for younger people to read while attending high school. Maybe it would open up some discussions between the races in a classroom setting.

Would I talk to this reporter if I lived there. If I felt safe talking to him, maybe.

Tittilating tidbits are presented about partially adumbrated events, Calls in the night, suspicions of an active sex life, moving out, Lert me live my own life, etc. Nothing abnormal, just threads that unfortunately weren't and probably never can be developed.

Best

After reading about the killing of Norris Maben, I can see that it just added to the town's frustration with the law. Later on in the book we find out that the policeman who shot him should have recognized him. Had investigated another crime in which Norris was a suspect a few months before. Maybe Marv Fiedler panicked after his stairclimb and facing the people upstairs. It was not a situation that he was accustomed to but using his gun doesn't seem to fit the picture that the author paints of him earlier. Confusing information!

Well, the fleeing suspect WAS fleeing and the officer DID think he had a gun and I doubt anybody would fault him for shooting unless color were a complicating factor.

Back in the Nixon era, in Louisville, the police shot and killed a naked white youth just because they felt "Threatened" and nobody made much of it. Of course what can you expect in that era.

Best

Well folks, got the book today and while waiting for a download to happen I managed to read 55 pages. Hmm. His "research" occurred 5 years ago? How current is his assessment of "tension"??????? Unless I'm just blind and stupid, I haven't seen any. Tho daughter does live in the township and not BH proper. But still... I'm anxious to read more, do you think I can do without sleep tonight?

Finished the book.

If you lived in either of these towns, would you talk to this author/journalist?
In hindsight no, but at the time possibly.

Would you feel secure living in either town?
Not from the book, but based on my experiences there, yes. I stay with my daughter in Fairplain. Also stayed at Motels there each Christmas. But that's not in town. Have driven thru downtown, no problem.

Why do you think the author picked these two towns to write about?
Can't figure that out, surely not out of "helping" to solve the mystery.

Is the author helping or harming race relations by writing this book?
Harming, perpetuating some of the myths, drawing national attention to problems that exsist anywhere.

Has the author (a white big-city reporter) been fair, accurate and unbiased in this book to both towns?
Not in my opinion.

RUTH,

Respectfully, I come up with three different answers.

Since I love to talk, I'm certain I would indeed have talked to the reporter.

I think he wrote to outline the problem in race relations to which this particular community, because of its peculiarly marked contrasts, lent itself well. I suspect that the case itself was, to the author, merely a vehicle.

Better understanding will ultimately help more than hinder race relations, but fairness and objectivity are personal judgements. Personally, I think he did well at presenting all sides iof the issues.

Best

Now if we can get some input from the others, maybe we will get a good dialog going here. It sure would be dull, if all of us thought alike.

"Is the author helping or harming race relations by writing this book? Harming, perpetuating some of the myths, drawing national attention to problems that exsist anywhere." I was thinking of race relations in St. Joe/BH not race relations in general.

Sorry to not be here this week but my computer went down on Monday and I am just getting back online.

Back to the book, yes he did write it five years ago.

Ruth

Are you saying that the drug gangs aren't there anymore? How did they clean that up?

I agree with you concerning the presentation. I felt he did do a fair job with both communities. And, I would like to see this book and others like it(concerning our very different and personal perspectives) discussed in the schools. What's that Indian saying about walking in another's moccasins? Guess it applies here even between you and Ruth.

Ann, "Are you saying that the drug gangs aren't there anymore? How did they clean that up?" No community has been able to do that. It's just that it's not as obvious as the author makes it.Like I've said before, my family might be blind to the obvious, but it doesn't seem obvious to us. Mixed races at Silver Beach, and Lion's Park Beach just down the road a bit. We've been there alot in the summer. Daughter and Ben go there almost every day in summer. Now we wouldn't leave car unlocked alone, but don't anywhere anymore.

Downtown BH is alot of cleared land, but the few remaining structures are being cleaned up and fixed up and an "artsy" community is springing up, small tho it might be. Still lots of vacant buildings, but slowly they are becoming filled. We drive thru it on the way to Ben's school. Like I've said before, I'd much less drive up in the Gary,IN area than there. In fact don't. Gang wars abound, like in certain neighborhoods of Chicago. Living so near, that is our TV coverage and do see alot of it on tv. So I'm not as isolated as my community might lead one to believe. But still, on tv and no first hand exposure.

Ruth

Sounds like the rest of the world to me. One has to watch out for things but we have gotten used to that. We spend some time several weeks every year in Ithaca,NY where there is such a diversity of income and ethnicity that nothing bothers me anymore. Our grandson, John, gives us the scoop on which areas to avoid and we do, or we take him with us. He says that south Chicago is somewhat scary and that's where his car died in August. Fortunantely, he had a friend with him who is the size of one of Bears defensive line, so he was left alone while looking for phone booth to call AAA.

Jeepers, finally caught up TODAY to our new section which will end tomorrow!! Oh well, at least I'm up with you for only one day.

I don't know WHAT this story about Norris Maben and "Mother Marv" is doing in the book, can somebody straighten me out on this? For some reason I find myself questioning every sentence of this author, he makes assumptions and conclusions where I don't see that any exist, and then he DOESN'T make them where somebody else would.

For instance, on page 46, our Mother Marv has a three-to four-pack-a day- habit, drinks caffeine and has shaking hands on the job. Shaking hands usually is connected with things other than caffeine, yet two separate authorities attempt to make a case for the caffeine causing the shaking hands and there's no mention of booze at all, except his hatred of it and pouring it down the sink.

Why is all this in the book? Is there a connection I missed?

Then we have Warmbein with his caffeine and his two packs of Marlborors a day and his beer belly, but again no hint of any kind of problem until we find he had had, by his OWN estimate "three or four gin and tonics."

I don't know, there's too MUCH author in this book, I can't help but compare it with Our Guys which is much more tightly written and heavily researched, and this thing is probably not the good read I once thought it was. I really am irritated by the author's constant interjection of conclusions and his heavy handed slapping around of the reader to get the reader to come to his conclusions, and I still don't know where he's heading.

What on earth was all that about the parade? It DID show race relations are not good in the two towns, but I'd like less anecdotes with heavy author breathing and more facts.

Ginny

Well said, Ginny. I am not getting much from this book, either. Somehow, the "reporting" lacks credibility; consequently, the conclusions lose face. I'm not sure I'll finish it.

To me, the most telling thing about race relations that I've noticed in recent years is the increase in pleasant, middle class black families living low profile, peaceable lives in formerly all white neighborhoods. I see it right here in my little village, a former white enclave if you ever saw one! We accept these families BECAUSE they are "acting white", as "street blacks" would state the case. It's almost as if there are two black races developing...

Has anyone else observed this sort of thing first hand?

Jerwyn

I heard a black teacher in a new school in D.C. describe the black middle class community exactly the way you did. And, his conclusion was that the poor black kids needed some special attention to get themselves into the main stream of life. So, he helped to start a charter school that caters to troubled youth, ones who don't fit in or have arrest records and are way behind when it comes to school. Very intense teaching, from 9:30A to 8:00P every weekday. Now, this seems to point to two cultures and seems to mean education in one instance and very little in the other. It does take the whole village, doesn't it?

Right Jerwyn,

Let's be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's an important quote on p 192 by Cornel West " The monumental eclipse of hope, the unprecedented collapse of meaning, the incredible disregard for human (especially black) life in much of black America"

Things aren't actually that much worse these days than they were several decades ago. They're probably better. Black Youth (White too) have become more informed and aware. Cultural standards including trustworthy government, The american dream, and virtually the whole fabric of our culture is melting in decadence. And THEY KNOW IT !!!

Best

Ann, LJ: My name is JERYN and it's pronounced to rhyme with Karen. Please and thank you. [I am grinning]

Back to the discussion: intense teaching may help deprived children--of any color--if it's not started too late in their young lives. I see the black children brought up alongside white in our neighborhood--they are accepted; they have white friends; there are no apparent differences. Early, early training...

What do you mean, throwing out the baby with the bathwater? I'm afraid I tend to think that if "much of black America" would get with the program, study, work, and most of all, behave, they would have far less problems. I see them doing it here in my community; those blacks don't seem to have "eclipsed hopes".

JERYN. Jeryn. I'll TRY, honest.

I was referring to the ashes being thrown on the BOOK

Best

Well kindergarten in the mainstream school in BH was an experience. Awards for attending all week, and all sorts of silly ways to encourage attendance. Grandson has a box of awards. Now this school he has to EARN awards. But this happens in white communities too. I guess it's all in how one perceives education and it's benefits!!

Education seems to be one of the solutions, but early training at home followed up by a good education is where it starts. Unfortunentely, many children(black and white) fall through the cracks in the present system. Have any of you read "The Color of Water"? That certainly proves Jeryn(see, I knew that) right concerning getting with the program. What a mother the lady in that book proved to be!

To give the author some credit, you have to consider that this is a very difficult topic for a book. He purports to show racial imbalance and inequity in "twin cities," and has chosen one incident to flesh out a difficult theme right here at the turn of the century of a new age in America.

I still don't understand why he continues to include so many other incidents while his own researching of the main events is sketchy, but am behind in my reading so will shut up until I catch up!

Ginny

Ginny, I think your evaluation of the book is quite correct. I do see the logic of including the other cases as contributory to the overall problems of race relations.

The crucial material (Included in next week's pages) was unfortunately a massive deflation of the primary subject. Perhaps we've become "Spoiled" by watching on T-V the methods employed in proper death investigations.

Best

I'm back, but still coughing my head off - I feel as though I'm bringing up my toes when I cough. Gotta stop it because I gotta go to NYC soon, Amen, Brother!

Yes, we can get a dialog going here I think - all these things we agree and disagree on, makes a discussion!

Ruth: You said you couldn't understand why the author picked these two towns. He is a journalist after all and explained I think (haven't gone back in the book yet, but I will) in the prologue that the Rodney King business was going on at the time and much attention was being paid to that - the guy wants to write and he finds something to write about in these 2 towns - something that a publishing house might take, don't you think? Race relations (particularly the worst aspects of it) is hot copy.

Ruth - in what way has he not been fair to the towns? Are you saying the author paints BH with too black a color? That has not been your experience obviously. I noticed with interest that you say the downtown is being cleaned up and becoming "artsy." I'm sure you know of the history of Manhattan (and other big cities, of course) where the slums have given way to the artsy crowd and the poor people have had to move on, and create the slums elsewhere. If the artists come toBH, the same will happen no doubt.

Also, Ruth - I did appreciate your comments - you felt the author harmed race relations by writing this book? Interesting that! Are you saying better let sleeping dogs lie?

Jeryn: I think I'm spelling it right, but knowing you, you'll forgive us our trespasses! You said your black neighbors were "acting white." Whatever do you mean?

Enough chattering for awhile. I'll be back later with more comments. Loved reading them all.

Welcome home, ELLA!!! Better start taking care of your cough...

From working at the Welfare Dept., I picked up on certain expressions used by black people. "Street blacks" is a term for those who make their living on the streets and/or the poorer, trashy black people. These people, in turn, say the middle class blacks--especially those who constitute a minority in a primarily white neighborhood or similar situation--are "acting white", definitely meant in a derogatory way! Calling someone an "Uncle Tom" is equally derogatory way of saying the same thing in describing their fellows who become chummy or do business with white people. There's a large element of black people who do not want to join the general population, but WANT to remain segregated, different [from whites], and are quite hostile to whites, period.

Hi Jeryn: Am trying my best to get well, as I have a date in NYC coming soon - and a turkey to fix in between.

Yes, we all have heard of the "Uncle Tom" expression. Had never heard of the expression "street blacks" or "acting white." Probably because I was never working where you were, but among the college educated blacks. However, many of the black students were lst generation college students and were from poor homes. Perhaps they shielded me (being white) from the street talk that many of them knew, but I truly believe they wanted to get away from that atmosphere entirely.

They are divided into many camps, as are white people, about being segregated or integrated. If we forget the skin color, we all disagree/agree with ideas (not even husbands/wives of 48 years can agree on everything,haha).

When we first moved to our present home in 1961 it was definitely a white town, white neighborhood, and I well remember the furor when the first black family moved into our neighborhood (the old saw-will our homes be devalued now, etc); but that home was sold several years later to a white family and now we have a lovely black family on our own street. Times have changed I believe, don't you?

Often I felt the hostility, or suspicion would be a better word, from the black young people. Why wouldn't they be? And surely, you, as a white social worker in a black neighborhood, would be a focal point. Did you feel any sympathy for the children or adults, or did you come away from those years shaking your head?

Since Ruth has finished the book, and it is an easy read, shall we just discuss it all now - and if you all have finished it, or not, we can give our overall impressions of the book.

There were all kinds, Ella. Most were only to be pitied and helped, trying to respect their humanity in the process. Not easy in that system! Others, white and black but mostly the latter I fear, were suspicious, rude, and occasionally arrogant. Not easy to help.

That kind of work teaches one a lot about the human condition. I came away knowing that we were not all created equal, in spite of those lovely, well-intentioned words.

Ruth: I just heard about the death of your sister. I am so sorry, I have lost 3 sisters and I miss them every day.

We are all busy at this time with Thanksgiving a few days away, so let me know if anyone wants to continue the discussion at this time - or maybe not at all? Do be frank.

Ginny - If I remember what you posted about the book, you could not understand the author's method of writing; his vignettes of various people and their relationship to the overall story. Has anyone, other than myself, found this to be a new way of writing novels, or other books? Perhaps authors think it modern, or want to keep us all in suspense as to what is coming down the pike at the end? Did you finish the book, Ginny, and have any opinions as to who killed Eric McGinnis? Or any other comments to make?

Jeryn: The arrogance of people who need help is hard to understand. Perhaps I have a different slant on it, not necessarily a correct one. Due to unfortunate circumstances in our family, my sisters and I were placed in an a church-affiliated orphanage when we were young and attended a school in a wealthy suburb. We were the object of many "well-intentioned" people who gave us all kinds of things - free tickets, free private lessons in piano, golf, parties, - you get the idea. We hated those people and were downright rude to them and that may be hard to understand unless you were in our shoes. You could call it pride, ingratitude, anger, there are many words, and I'm sure psychologists have correct diagnoses for it; but we would have much rather been left alone than be the object of pity. Even though we wanted what we were given, envied what we did not have, we despised the giver. Does that make any sense?

Have you ever tried to help an alcoholic or drug addict? They confess they need help, but hate you for giving it; although that is not quite the same thing as above.

I have a few notes in my book (well, actually a lot of notes which I may or may not get to), but am wondering if anyone has noticed the black Catholics that are emerging on the scene. It's understandable for many reasons I believe. The older Catholic churches/schools are now in the inner cities and need to throw open their doors to the community to stay alive; and the black parents see the Catholic schools as a way of getting a better and more disciplined education for their children. (see chapter 12 in book).

Several times in the book various characters have opined that the law is different for blacks than for whites, particularly in finding out murderers of black people. Do you think so, or are they just prejudiced in their beliefs?

In chapter 14 the author gives examples of the suspicions of each town toward the other. Couldn't help but note one sentence on page 123: "Today, many Benton Harbor women won't shop in St. Joseph. They say they're followed by store clerks." THEY ARE - I KNOW FOR A FACT. Store clerks who are white are told by their managers to be particularly wary of black people that are shopping around. Should they? How do you feel?

How long ago was it that the FBI agents (I think it was) were waiting in a Denny's to be seated and those among them who were white got seated and the black were left standing and later sued the company? Shouldn't all black people be angry? Do you expect them to be understanding?

All right, time to shut up, she says to herself. No one is listening to this blithering fool this time of night or anytime. Hello out there!

Ella, We are listening, and we are thinking, and we are frustrated. Again I'd emphasize that the problem is more economic than it is "Color Coded".

Regarding the rest of the book, Indeed I felt a massive "Let-down" by the virtual absence of forensic study of the body. It amounted to criminal negligence. If there were a place to make accusations of a "Cover-up" this is where it should have focused.

I'd like to take the opportunity to compliment the leadership you've provided to this discussion, and I think the participation has been spirited and pertinant.

You might want to leave it open for the last week of discussion to be certain that everyone interested has an opportunity to post.

Best

Yes, do leave it open, as I'm sruggling to catch up.

Ella, that's interesting about your feelings as a recipient as a child? What, in your opinion, would have been better for those who wanted to help out to have done?

If any of you have seen "Life is Beautiful," the new movie, you have seen an new but very stunning deptiction to bigorty and hatred.

Ginny

I skipped down to post because of what Ella said:

Ruth: I just heard about the death of your sister. I am so sorry, I have lost 3 sisters and I miss them every day.

Were you talking to me? If so I was an only child, must be another Ruth.

Now I'll go back and read what I skipped.

Oh the downtown is what is demolished, business section, not housing, there is plenty in BH. BH is predominantly black, but I have not encountered any problems. Tho most of my voyages are to the school and we are known there. No problems in stores either.

Ruth: Oh, heavens! That's what I get for trying to do a million things at once and stop coughing, at least in the kitchen! And that's just where I need to be at the moment, so will apologize to you Ruth. Sorry!

Ella

Do you want me to bring you some chicken soup. You must get well enough to take that trip to NYC. By the way, I believe it was Ruth LEVIA'S sister-in-law who died. Look in the Sympathy folder.

I understand how you felt towards the good deeders. I have a permanent bad reaction to misplaced compassion myself. It does make one angry sometimes.Maybe, the blacks feel this way about do gooders. Its a hard call. One keeps trying.

Back to the book, I didn't like the weak ending. In fact, I felt cheated of the truth of the boy's death. Was it murder or an accident? No autopsy? Seems that would have been the first order! We will never know the answer from this author!

Honestly, Ella, I'll admit I did not finish the book. I was disappointed in the author's approach and general beating around the bush, book was due, I was busy, soooo back to the library it went!

As for people in need being arrogant, ungrateful, or whatever--it is a sort of pride, I imagine. All of us experience at one time or another the well-meant but unwanted gift, the good intentions gone awry, and the needy person too proud to accept help graciously. I'm sure it's harder to understand the further one is from the actual experience. It's as if the recipient misdirects his hatred aiming for the donor instead of at the unhappy circumstance that caused his need in the first place. It was hard back then for me to understand why people would ask for help then be hateful when they received it! I'm older now and possibly a little more understanding of human nature... maybe?!

I did finish the book over Thanksgiving, and find that I'm sort of ambivalent here at the end, with a sudden appreciation of the author, of all things.

The scenes in the autopsy room were something else, am not sure why all the graphic details were included, but am sure I wouldn't have lasted as long as he did. It did make me appreciate the lengths to which he went, the...was it 5 years of research, yet the book falls short, and ends ambiguously.

I guess the quest still goes on. I tend to favor the theory of the group chasing him off the end of the pier.

The Chapter "Ripples and Whitecaps," to me, indicates a problem with editing, so many more new faces and voices and theories and tales, but by that time we're tired of new faces. Page 280 + of a 310 page book is NOT the time to throw more characters forward.

I was very surprised to read the author's credits, and honors. Maybe I tried to read the book too fast, and maybe it would reward a more leisurely pace?

But I still, at the end of the book, don't understand the Maben business. I do see that the good coroner thought he'd been shot in the back, and that the coroner called in Eric's case was sloppy, but surely we could have grasped that in less words.

I don't know, what are the reviewers saying about this book? I'd have to say it's disjointed, and though I grew to appreciate the author at the end, the middle two thirds left me cross eyed.

Ginny

I think you are suggesting that perhaps the book lacks focus. There are three major areas he tries to cover; Race relations in general, in the BH area in particular, and the death of the propositus in particular. In none of these areas is there a "Denouement". I suspect its that which leaves us a bit dis-satisfied.

Best

That's a good set of points, LJ. Focus, you are absoulutely right, no focus. I think, this morning, I CAN see what he was about, and I would bet you anything he THOUGHT he had really written an "electric" book, and the "good" coroner at the end's revelation about the shot in the back should have come like a thunderclap, but it didn't.

You need a playbill and I do note at the END!! The END!! of the book, we have a cast of characters????? I should have outlined each chapter, but didn't catch on until too late, it's an easy read: climb UP the mountain, but when you get to the top, it's an awful let down, and I feel sorry for him, having read all his accomplishments. This one just fizzled.

Ginny

In conclusion to our discussion, I'll add a few thoughts about the book. The author, no doubt, began his book in the hope of finding a cause for Eric McGinnis' death, a perpetrator of the crime; however, as time went on Kotlowitz found no resolution, just rumors, gossip and a few facts.

To account for his time, and to give the author credit, I believe he wrote an account of people and places he found in his investigative reporting in the hope that it might awaken the citizens to the hostility, conflicts, suspicions and misunderstanding that abides in both towns.

Whether he accomplished anything in writing the book, I don't know. Ruth thought he did more harm than good. Possibly. Who is to judge. I heard the author speak on C-Span and was impressed with his sincerity and I thought he did a credible job in his investigation.

Did you notice the number of black people interviewed that believe that if it had been the death of a white person, the murderer would have been found? I don't know if this is true; it would be a good research project for a student of criminal justice, if it hasn't already been done.

Eric's mother believes that it was a black person who killed her son, if I am remembering correctly. Black-on-black crime is accelerating I have read. How very sad. We all know the numerous reasons, many of which also pertain to the white population as well as other cultures. The breakdown of the family, poverty, hopelessness, etc.

I would rate the book a 6. Several of you did not enjoy (if that is the adjective to describe a book of this nature) reading it and Jeryn didn't finish it. However, this is what makes SN such a diverse and interesting place to be, don't you agree.