Everyone I know who has read this book has enjoyed it immensely, even those who rarely read non-fiction. Here's a review from the book jacket by Dava Sobel who wrote Longitude:

Like victims of a perfect crime, readers of The Perfect Storm are first seduced into caring for the book's doomed characters, then compelled to watch them carried into the maw of a meteorological hell. And all the while, Sebastian Junger's compassionate, intelligent voice instructs us effortlessly on the sea life of the swordfisherman, the physics of a sinking steel ship, and the details of death by drowning. It is a terrifying, edifying read.

I look forward to exploring this book with you!

Katie

KATIE, Do we need to get the word out, or will everybody subscribed to the "Endurance" folder be automatically forwarded to this folder?.

Best

LJ

Good point, LJ. I'll put a link in the Endurance discussion.

Thanks, Katie

WELL! What can you say upon completing pages 1- 36??

I definitely have a new understanding of the fishing world. Of course, I knew nothing about it except that it did look romantic: "they that go down to the sea in ships..." etc., etc.

Was really astounded to see written the same things occuring in the EF Benson series Mapp and Lucia even down to the two mariners given up for dead who simply walked up the street one morning.

I'm prepared to like the book, I like the format and size, and the illustrations at the head of each chapter. It's an appealing book in appearance.

The "race" aspect of the fisherman's world is new to me, and the ice seemed to change a way of life: the first back to port wins.

Could not get over the woman skipper: Linda Greenlaw, the Colby College graduate! I once entertained thoughts of Colby...but not to skipper a boat. Thought women were considered bad luck on the sea?

Isn't there a folk song about Gloucester?? or was it the Edmund Fitzgerald? Was that a fishing boat, too??

I've learned a LOT in these first pages, including how to measure a fathom, which I've always wanted to learn.

But, what are we to make of the author's steadfast refusal to make judgments on the men's behavior? I mean, what a hoot, Katie, the question would you want YOUR daughter to marry a swordfisherman? Can't imagine any scenario in which I'd want to be related in any way. So much for the romance of the fisherman's life.

"They suffer from a lack of dreams," one local says on page 11....find myself wondering what it is they are suffering from? Seems to be an entire way of life for a large group of people, of which I knew nothing.

Have any of you been to Gloucester?

Here's a quote which I didn't understand: "the town was forced to raise revenues by joining a Section 8 subsidized housing program. they provided cheap housing for people from other, even poorer, towns in Massachusetts, and in return received money from the government. The more people they took in, the higher the unemployment rate rose, stressing the fishing industry even further. By 1991, fish stocks were so depleted that the unthinkable was being discussed: Close Georges bank to all fishing, indefinitely." (page 19)

I guess I'm thick, but if the money came to the town from this housing, and the newcomers were unemployed thus raising the rate of unemployment, then how did this affect the fishing industry, and how, especially, did this cause fish stocks to be depleted, since the newcomers were NOT fishing in the first place?

PS: didn't know fish had tongues!

Ginny

I kept looking for more maps, but the major action is well represented cartographically.

Best

LJ

Now Ginny, we shouldn't pick on the men. Chris, with three children at home while she drank and slept with Bobby, is no prize as a woman or a mother. The author was in a tough spot - report accurately, but make us care for these guys. I wonder if swordfishmen have a high rate of ADD.

The bit about the unemployment and subsidized housing confused me too. My interpretation is that as people moved to town for housing, there was an abundance of fishermen, so more boats were going out bringing more fish, thus endangering the fish stocks. But that's just a guess. In fact, I heard on the radio today that something called the National Resource something-or-other, is asking consumers NOT to buy swordfish from the North Atlantic. They are very concerned that the species is being fished too heavily. As consumers, we are asked to inquire of our waiter WHERE the swordfish on the menu is from. Imagine the puzzled looks we'll get.

The fishermen in this story were fishing so far from land because the Georges Bank was no longer teeming with fish. These huge purse seines are a major cause of over fishing everywhere.

Until I read this chapter, I never understood the dangers involved in commercial fishing, or how competitive it is, which seems to lead to some serious risk taking, as in overloading boats.

As for Gloucester, was anyone else stunned to read that many of it's natives have never been to Boston, only 50 miles away?

Katie, yes, I saw that, but was, for some reason, not surprised, given the general attitude of the group as a whole. Now, does that say that travel is enjoyed only by the broad-minded or maybe by the affected??

Still don't really understand the unemployed fishermen: if they stayed unemployed then they didn't fish.

I really don't recall (this will no doubt stun all our readers) the last time I SAW swordfish on the menu...maybe I've been in McDonald's too long! McSwordfish...

By the way, has anyone noticed the photo on the book jacket? Pulled it out to look up Katie's point, and, well, the man looks like a poster for "Rugged Manhood." Reminds me of a National Geographic special on some fisherman in Wales somewhere, same sort of life, just a man of the sea, absolutely the most handsome man I ever saw in my life. Why on earth Hollywood didn't bang down his door, will never know....and NO I don't think there's a lot more to it than looks in Hollywood...(why am I discussing Hollywood in a fishing discussion)?

So I guess our main decision now is: do we or do we not want to take the next bus to Gloucester to meet these fellows? Wonder if they've gotten famous as a result of this book??

Ginny

Katie: good start on The Perfect Storm, which I read several months ago and enjoyed (if that's the right word.) Yes, I have been in Gloucester several times, lobster dinner there once. We lived in Worcester for five years. Ginny, I can believe that many Gloucester residents haven't visited Boston, fifty miles away. New England is known for its provincialism. On the other hand, with the beauty of Cape Ann, Rockport and Bear Skin Neck, who needs Boston?

Russ

And our Katie is right again: the current issue of Newsweek has a short article on the Swordfishing crisis, and points out that many of the swordfish now being taken are just "babies," and incapable of reproducing, so we're all supposed to do just as she said, and refuse it on the menu, as they are about to be wiped out. Now, WHAT will that do to the swordfishing industry in Gloucester?

Russ: I guess any part of the country can be insular. When a neighbor heard I was going to Italy, her thought was, "Why PAY to go anywhere, when I've got everything I need right here? Everything I need to see or could ever want is right here."

So, I bet you can find that anywhere...Different strokes, I guess.

Ginny

WE NEED YOUR COMMENTS IN SENIORNET BOOK REVIEW. CHECK IT OUT.

And not to be undone, Time Magazine devoted an entire page in its new issue to the swordfish problem, listing restaurants by cities which have pledged to stop serving it, and mentioning that the Red Lobster chain is still thinking about it.

This folder seems to always be au courant!!

Ginny

Ginny, thanks for the additional information on the swordfish problem. I wonder if this call for a boycott has sent the region we are reading about into a tizzy? There is a national fishermen's site on the 'net, so I'll go take a look and see if it mentions this issue.

Good point about provincialism appearing everywhere, Ginny. As a Californian of thirty-odd years (some of them very odd:), where people jump in their cars and drive 50 miles just to drop in on a friend, the fact that some citizens of Gloucester never went to nearby Boston DID amaze me. One would think that a trip into the city would be necessary at least once in their lives. I wonder if many of the poorer people don't have cars. Not having a car is unthinkable in California, but perhaps it's not that odd in that part of the country.

Katie

I went to the National Fishermen's page and there was no mention of the swordfish boycott. There is, however, an at-sea diary of a man fishing in the North Atlantic for swordfish! Unfortunately, the link to the diary is not working. It's an intersting site to look around in anyway.

Katie

Katie, where DO you find these sites? This one is very interesting, and only the clickable for the swordfisher's diary does not work! Now, today they do mention the boycott:

National Fisheries Institute denounces swordfish ban

1/20/98, Arlington, VA -- The National Fisheries Institute (NFI) announced its opposition to a new campaign by animal rights activists and others that encourages restaurants to stop offering swordfish caught in North Atlantic waters.

TODAY IN MARINER'S LIBRARY, see Links

Florida Marine Fisheries Commission - Web site for Florida's rulemaking authority over marine life.

TODAY IN RETAIL STORE, see Books

The Perfect Storm, by

And you can see they recommend our book nicely. Also looked at the classified ads, they want us! Want to go??

Here's one:

CREW FOR OFFSHORE LOBSTER/CRAB BOAT Guaranteed salary plus bonus. Call 207-863-9982.

You know, it's one thing to read about it in a book, another thing to actually SEE that they want people and we really could go....(yes, I realize they don't want me, but still, doesn't it stir the blood)?

Ginny

One of the discussion points is about disadvantages of a one industry town. Gloucester probably isn't a one industry town anymore. Route 128,Massachusetts high tech area, ends in Gloucester so there are many computer and electronics companies close by. Unfortunately, Gloucester had many working class people who made a good living at fishing but who don't fit into the new jobs. It's like the lumber towns in Washington and Oregon. It is probably about like most working class towns near a big city for the number of people never going to Boston. I knew people in steel mill towns fifty miles from Pittburgh who probably only went to the city a few times in their lives. This book gives a new idea of the complexity of present day sword fishing. I never knew the electronics was that complex. I knew basically how the fishing industry changed from going to Newfoundland many times on vacations starting about 45 years ago. Then the fishermen lived in tiny towns and went out only a few miles in small boats. Most of the towns didn't have electricity and they just sun dried the cod fish and shipped them to Portugal and Spain. Newfoundland changed almost overnight as the large boats from other countries came into Grand Banks. Dale Knapschaefer Manchester, NH

Dale - welcome to this discussion! It sounds as if you know this part of the world quite well. It's interesting about how high tech has moved into the area, but the populace isn't really benefiting because they are unskilled. Junger mentions a couple of other towns in the area (p.62):

If Gloucester is the delinquent kid who's had a few scrapes with the law, New Bedford is the truly mean older brother who's going to kill someone one day.

I wonder if he's heard from the New Bedford C of C on that one.

At any rate, Dale, I hope you will stick with us and help us out with any insights you have about the area. I'm from Calif. and have never been anywhere on the East Coast, unless you count New York City and Miami .

I very much enjoyed the detail on how the fishing lines are strung, and then pulled in again. What an incredible amount of labor and expense involved.

Katie

Well, Pat, bless your heart, you're like a bee buzzing around all these folders, but they're like flowers in a boquet, and I appreciate it. Thanks!

I've been wondering if there's a difference between a one industry town in which the industry is the automobile or steel industry and one in which the elements of nature and sheer brute strength play a part?

Ginny

Our Clubber Patrick Mulligan, known to us all as the Travelin' Man, has just returned from a long sojurn in India, and has posted some of his diary, and it reads better than fiction: some headings are "Culture Shock," and "The Snake." You can find it at Patrick's Journal starting with post 330, will just do it this way until I can figure out how to get a Cross Link up.

Ginny

I was impressed by the reference to the Shackelton Voyage on which a wave was seen so big that it was mistaken for a cloud.

On Pg 133 the reference to "Graveyard of the Atlantic" surprised me because I've always heard the North Carolina Coast referred to by this title.

Best

LJ

Ginny wondered if there is a difference between the nature type one industry and industrial one industry towns. I think there is because people doing work like lumbering, fishing, farming are much more attached to the job than people working in a factory. It is really a way of life. Dale Knapschaefer Manchester, NH

Dale - I think you've expressed the essence of towns like Gloucester. The fishing industry is/was a way of life, just as farming is to the midwest. Generation after generation embrace it until some social/economic/political factor interfers with the industry, or the industry bumps into some kind of resource scarcity. And that vulnerability can be devastating.

These next chapters begin the sequence of events as the storm builds. I think the author does a nice job of unfolding the possible actions of the men on the Andrea Gail by extrapolating from the experiences of crews who lived through severe storms.

Katie

There's a big article in the newspaper today about how the swordfish is not the one people ought to be focusing on as an endangered species, that the scallop, which normally has a 20 year life span, (!!??!!) is being taken at 3 years, and there are only a "handful" over 5 years old. The Maine diver scallop is no longer available in "true jumbo size." Also the sandbar and black tip shark and the bluefin tuna are endangered, and should be placed above the swordfish, according to Tom Hoff, Senior Scientist at the MId-Atlantic Fishery Management Council...They are blaming the 40 MILE "long lines" that take too many juvenile swordfish. The famous Oyster House on Sansom Street in Philadelphia, (which, if you've not visited it, you've missed something), is not buying the "lousy-looking South American 'puppy sword' at the fish market," which addresses the concern of the American fisherman that he is the only one playing by the rules.

That said, I honestly don't know what to make of this book and the people in it.They love to fish. They hate to go. They make a million bucks at it. They are poor. They are great guys. They are always drunk and beat each other's brains out.

"Swordfish are not gentle animals," (now, WHY do I sense some human brutality coming on) ?? One guy does nothing but gut. There's a "numbing club on board to beat the fish senseless." They might get hurt on the hooks. The lowest crew member for the biggest haul ever got $10,000 for seven days. "That's why people fish; that's why they spend ten months a year inside seventy feet of steel plate."

On the other hand, "Fishing's a marginal business, though, and people don't succeed in it by being well-liked, they succeed by being tough."

OK, had your Macho Man Fix for today?? I can't get a fix on any of these people, they don't seem real to me, and I don't know whether they are simply not well explained or developed enough, or I simply am lacking enough life experience to know about them...and I don't, based on what I've read of them here so far, know if I want to.

This is non -fiction. Which character do YOU identify with and like, so far??

Ginny

I agree that I could not realy find anybody with whom to identify, although I found the characters (participants, might be a better word) all believable.

Best

LJ

About 8 years ago, my husband and I bought a summer bungalow on Long Island, very close to the bay. The ocean is separated from the bay by a barrier beach called Fire Island. Our neighbors told us they never had water come into their homes in 30 years. Well needless to say, when that Halloween storm hit, we were inundated. Until I read The Perfect Storm, I never knew how that storm developed. I was fascinated. I loved the book. The characters were not perfect human beings, but real people coping with the same problem as everyone else and trying to make a living the only way they knew how.

Welcome Joan! It sounds like you experienced the power of water first hand, just as some people in southern California have recently. I can't imagine how miserable it must be to have water and mud all through the house.

And I agree with you, that while the fishermen in this book would probably have not been my best friends, it is not difficult to empathize with them as they face the worst storm of their lives. But the person I most identify with at this point in the book is the young Canadian woman on the Japanese boat, Judith Reeves. There she is, the only English speaker on the boat, the only one with a survival suit, and the only one who can communicate with the Coast Guard and the rest of the fleet. It must have been awful to be both scared witless (though she retained her wits) and lonely.

I'm finding it difficult to visualize the size of the waves. The only thing that comes to mind is the scene in the Poseiden Adventure when the cruise ship gets slammed by one of those rogue waves. What a nightmare.

Katie

Joan: Welcome!! You and our Helen of the Book Club Online are from Long Island! I once attended a concert on Fire Island, unless I have it very badly misremembered, it was on the water? Some kind of summer production? It was a long time ago, so I may have not got the location right.

I keep wondering why my reactions are different from everyone else's, and then I realized that ONCE AGAIN, I'm an entire reading assignment behind you all... I was still in the "they're getting ready to go" phase of the narrative, and truly don't see much to lionize these people over. I'll read the next section, so will at least know what you all are talking about.

Ginny

Katie & Ginny, Thanks for the welcome. Katie, I agree that Judith must have been horrified by the waves she saw and the position she found herself in. There is nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. What a strong person she must be to have remained calm in the face of that. Ginny, you probably saw a concert at the Jones Beach Theatre, which technically is part of Fire Island, but is accessible by car. Some of the Island is only accessible by ferry. I now live in Florida, but still think of Long Island as home.

Joan

Joan: YES!! Jones Beach it was! And YES, we did drive there, and the concert was on a stage in the water...

I'm still not caught up, but if you can catch the A&E rerun of this morning's program of The Open Book, they interviewed Junger on this book, and also Thomas Hoving, who wrote the book we're reading: King of the Confessors in the History discussion!

If you hear of when it will be repeated, please tell, as I've not got a schedule, and really want to see it; saw about 3 minutes of Hoving.

Ginny

Ginny, Sorry, I didn't get to see Junger on "Open Book". I looked in the guide, but it did not show when it would be on again. Also sorry you're not really into the story. I guess it was more personal for me. I still cannot understand any one wanting to take a fishing boat 500 miles out into the ocean. I don't care how good the pay is, they must be a special breed. No wonder they drink a lot.

Joan

Joan: well, it gets worse, I'm now on page 150. Stultifying, that's all I can say, the man's prose style is stultifying.

Obviously, since many consider it the book of the year, I'm some kind of....listen, did we have to learn all the mechanics of drowning? I mean, it was interesting, but, hey.

500 miles IS a long way out. I've been on cruise ships, but, of course, they are bigger, and it's not me against the elements.

It does sound romantic, but can't help compare it with the Book Club Online's next pick, Road From Coorain in cwhich the author doesn't merely describe the actions of the characters, she provides insight into their motivations, sometimes startingly.

Now, Junger has not done that. I wonder why.

I expect it's because they all died?? Nil nisi bonum, and all that, not quite nice to say uncomplimentary things.

Was quite a shock, coming through all the description of drowning to find them all dead there.

I honestly think it's me. Have thought back thru the books on adventure we've read, and the macho element really turns me off. Wonder why.

But, then again, that's what book clubs are for: to enjoy all the different opinions!

Ginny

Well Ginny, I see your point. There's much of a "Utilitarian" nature, but we've seen worse. Actually the rest of the book where we get into the near shore rescue operations is quite exciting.

P.S. My oldest daughter is reading "A Coyote is eating my Leg"

Best

LJ

LJ: Will she join us here? Is that Andrehea?? (SP)??

Ginny

She'll try to join in. She visited and "Lurked" once. This one is Tammy. She has two children and lives out west (Kansas City).

Best

LJ

Hello you posters and lurkers,

I'm sorry I've been incommunicado this week. A sudden illness in the family has taken up much of my time, but I'm glad you've kept checking in.

I hope some others of you read A WOLVERINE is Eating My Leg. It a book of previously published essays by a wonderfully bright and witty adventurer, and it will be a nice change of pace from the past two oh-my-gosh-I-can't-believe-how-they-lived-through-this kind of books. Cahill (the author) takes us to Dian Fossey's gorillas, inside a religious cult, into Jim Jones' horror in Guyana, to Montana, diving with sea lions, tracking Big Foot, ice fishing, caving, and lots more. This author is a personal favorite of mine, and I would love to hear what you all think of him.

Back to The Perfect Storm - Ginny, I absolutely agree that this is not beautiful prose. Somehow the book has managed to stay in the top 10. It can only be because once you get past the build-up part and into the rescue part, as LJ said, it moves quickly and has a great deal of suspense. I think the author took an idea for a long article and stretched it into a book, but just barely .

Katie

I'm behind my own schedule, as usual, so let's try to catch up.

For my money, the chapter on drowning, The Zero-Moment Point, was very disturbing. Although I'm not normally the kind of person who dislikes a subject just because it's unpleasant, I found myself wanting to skim over the physiological descriptions of drowning. Not having enough air to breathe has always been sort of upsetting to me. Perhaps in a previous life.....

But I did appreciate the first-person account of drowning from the Scottish doctor, especially the disparate reactions of the men in the sinking ship:

There was no time to spare for studing humanity at this juncture, but I can never forget the apparent want of initiative in all I passed. All the passengers seemed paralyzed-even my companions, some of them able military men. The stewards of the ships, uttering cries of despair and last farewells, blocked the entrance to the deck, and it was only by sheer force I was able to squeeze past them.

Do you ever wonder how you would react in a life-threatening situation?

On to The World of the Living....

Katie

Katie: Yes, I always wonder, and had always thought that drowning was not such a bad way to go, as I had been told that you sort of black out and just pass away and when the involuntary gasp comes, why, you don't know it. That's not what Junger is saying.

Your Scottish doctor's description reminds me of Titanic, which I just saw, also about drowning...

I, too, have a thing about breathing and getting enough air, In my case, I think it was because my grandfather, a conductor on a train, died of TB...have always suspected I've got "weak lungs," and so am partial to fresh air: sleep with the bedroom windows always open, regardless of temp outside. Have just heard that spending a day in Rome, my destination this summer, is akin to smoking 13 packs of cigarettes a day!! We'll be there 8 days!

Lots of day trips.

Am crossing the ocean in 2000, and am reading everything I can get my hands on about the sea, feel sorry for the crew, but think the clinical stuff reminds me of How We Die which is a book I really should not have read.

Ginny

One observation in particuler bothered me. "In conditions like these, so much water gets loaded into the air that swimmers drown simply trying to breathe"

Best

LJ

The network has been VERY odd for me the past few days. I thought I posted the following message earlier today - in fact, I SAW it up here, but now it's gone. I originally tried to post it Thursday, but the network was like molasses. So here I go again:

Ginny and LJ, suffocation by any means is probably a universal fear. It even seems worse to me that falling - another one of my semi-phobias. I certainly am beginning to sound neurotic, aren't I?

In The World of the Living chapter, Junger puts together some decent sentences. He describes the Mary T and an unidentified Japanese sword boat near each other in very high seas and gales:

The two vessels pass by each other without a word or a sign, unable to communicate, unable to help each other, navigating their own courses through hell.

On the Satori, the owner of the boat, Leonard, doesn't come off very well in the story. The two women, Bylander and Stimpson, do all they can to keep the boat afloat and to try and get help, while Leonard sits on his berth drinking whiskey. I just read in the paper this morning that the Satori was found beached and intact, with the bundle of Leonard's personal stuff still on the deck! The implication was that Leonard shouldn't be faulted for originally insisting that he would stay with his boat, and that Junger should have included that little tidbit in the book. Junger reportedly said it was an unimportant detail. I wonder if Leonard refused to be interviewed by Junger, and this was Junger's revenge.

The nerve is must have taken to jump off that boat and into that sea.

Katie

We need to wrap this discussion up so that we can move onto A Wolverine is Eating My Leg. I know it has a strange title. The author's other books have equally strange titles, but please don't let the title deter you from this one. Tom Cahill is an excellent writer, very well educated, very smart, and often very funny.

I think those of you who have read The Perfect Storm must have been impressed by the training and bravery of the pararescue jumpers, and the impressive work done by the crew of the Tamaroa as they risked their lives and their ship saving the helicopter crew.

The emotional state of the survivors was very interesting. I suppose the diagnosis would be Post-traumatic Stress Disorder:

And then there are the nearly-dead. Kosco, Hazard, Reeves- these people are leading lives that, but for the merest of circumstances, should have already ended. Anyone who has been through a severe storm at sea has, to one degree or another, almost died, and that fact will continue to alter them long after the winds have stopped blowing and the waves have died down. Like a war or a great fire, the effects of a storm go rippling outward through webs of people for years, even generations. It breaches lives like coastlines and nothing is ever again the same.

So - what's your verdict on this book? On the time-honored SeniorNet rating scale of one to five stars, what do you give this book? I find it difficult to average out the book into one rating. I'd give the writing 2 stars, but the subject matter and the research he did a four stars. I guess an overall rating from me would have to be three stars (I can't remember which wingding character is a star. Pat or Jeanne - are you listening?)

Katie (and don't forget to look in on the next discussion. I'll post the link after I get it put together.)

I would like to rate "A Perfect Storm" as average or a 3. I liked learning about the technology of the modern fishing fleet and the kind of life a fisherman has. The only part of the book I didn't like was the first part; discussing the lives in Gloucester, the Crow's Nest Bar, etc. Dale Knapschaefer

I'll do a 3, too, after reading Dale's post. I was pretty set on the 2, but then Katie separated it out from the writing, and Dale talked of learning things, so 3 it is!

Very much looking forward to Wolverine !

Ginny

Three stars so far. Anyone like it better, or not as well?

The Wolverine is Eating My Leg discussion has just started. Come take a look.

Katie