Non-Fiction Book Discussion 
Book discussed:    PRINCESS:  by Jean P. Sasson. 
Discussion Leaders were:    LJ Klein and Ginny Anderson 

I am really looking forward to this discussion, ever since I saw so many women covered head to foot in London last August. I know so many of us have read this book, do come in here and let's get some idea for LJ just who all are here?

What fun!

Ginny

The deafening roar of response is less than elating, but I hope deceptive. There surely are "Persons" out there who can address this subject with vigor.

Compare "Princess",with American Indians in "Undaunted Courage" Pg 285 "The man is the sole propryetor of his wives and daughters, and can barter or dispose of either as he thinks proper"

(From the expedition journals) Best

LJ

LJ: The women in Saudia Arabia were called MBO's (moving black objects) by our GI's in the Persian Gulf War - a bit of GI humor. My daughter was there as a Army Reserve Officer in a field hospital unit and I never want to go through an experience like that again! There have been a few signs of rebellion on the part of some women - I think it was in Iran possibly? Read it in the paper recently. It is hard to believe in modern times that women still live under this domination.

As most of us now know, LJ has suffered a heart attack and is hospitalized, so I will take over this discussion until he returns, as I know he wants it to go well.

Ella, am going to depend on you and your daughter's memories for some wonderful background info.

I LOVE this book! Have just started it. Starts with a map of Saudi Arabia, explains in chart form the population, religion, etc. Then a map of the neighboring countries: Iraq, Iran, Egypt. WHAT could be more timely?

This is well written and just wonderful. If you don't have it, please DO get it!!

And join us here for the first 50 pages on Sunday!

Ginny

Hi Ginny,

You're a wonder doing so much on the net and now something extra, Wow! I'm with you all the way. Have my book and support in tow.

Di

YAY, Di, delighted to see you here!! I think this is one of the more provacative books we've read, and look forward to hearing everybody's opinions.

Ginny

Just had to stick in my two cents. We have Alaskan Malamutes and that statement above sounds so much like the definition of an "alpha male"in the pack, so very territorial. Then again there's also an "alpha bitch" so there you have it. And now to begin reading.

Never in all my life have I read anything like this book. Never. I know they say "East is East and West is West, " but who knew?

Now she's got so much in these first 51 pages (which brings us to the end of the first three chapters, I don't know where to start!

I love this book. It's strange. It's different. I love the index in the back, the glossary of unfamiliar terms, the listing of the laws of the Saudis, the maps, the explanation of the regions. THIS is a real learning experience, but O,, but O!!

Now let's start out slowly in order to allow everyone to catch up and join in, but, just for starters:

Have you ever in your life?

Here's a family with five girls and one boy: I guess these are the children who lived? And with all their money and luxury why don't they have better prenatal care?? And when Sara proves to be brilliant and the boy, Ali (who seems a recipe for disaster to me) is at the top of his class, instead of the whole family being proud and happy, DAD shows what he's made of: "but then Father cruelly asked how any daughter born of her belly could acquire learning."

Boy o boy, don't you wish you could give DAD an earfull?

And four wives? And four families? And ol DAD visits their areas in rotation, and if he doesn't come, why, we're all a flutter? Personally, I wouldn't want to EVER see his face again.

And how about the four houses all the same, right...excuse me, palaces...all the same, right down to the toys for the kids and the wall paint? As Dad doesn't want to be in unfamiliar surroundings when he travels? Always wants to be at home? But WOULD that be home??

OH brother, o brother, what a perfect book to discuss. What do you think our chances for a Book Clubs Trip to Saudi Arabia are??? hmmmmmmmmmm???

Ginny

INDEED, this book is riveting! The four Porsches, for Ali no less, one for each residence got to me. I'm cheering for the mother standing up to the dad for Sara's sake. We know already that the consequences will have to be horrific.

I just don't think I can stick with the guidelines and not read ahead. I've got to know what happens.

Di

Did you catch an article in today's news/paper on a controversy over establishing a Saudi Islamic Academy in Virginia near DC? Wouldn't you like to check out the curriculum? I wonder how near they plan to stick with customs from the old sod. Gotta say again, this is some book! What an eye opener.

Di: NO!! How on earth are they going to manage that? Would be something to see! Must check my paper, and come back in.

Ginny

Just got the book at the library, so will start reading right away. Left a note for you Ginny in Library. But in the Introduction, which I have just started, the Princess states Abdul Azziz married more than 300 women and he picked out the sons of his '"FAVORITE WIVES" to have honored status and these sons are now at the center of power in our land. Now, how do you suppose one got to be a FAVORITE WIVE? All sorts of things come to my mind. How about you?

Oh, Ella, how fabulous, so GLAD to see you here! Yes, and we're only to page 50, lots and lots of surprises for you to come in those 50.

Yes, that was in 1902, and that produced, she says, 50 sons and 80 daughters and the whole family has grown to 21,000!! Of which 1,000 are direct descendants. I'm wondering here about how on earth they avoid marrying their cousins.

Also, yes, how DID one get to be the best wife?? If ol Abdul was anything like our DAD here in this book, I'd cross my eyes every time he hove in view....You can have TOO MUCH. 300 wives is 299 too many! But he did it to solidify the desert tribes. That's a really novel approach. Good thing the Kings of Europe didn't follow suit...

I still can't get over the four houses....palaces. I keep sitting in my living room trying to imagine it in Colorado or Hawaii or the Swiss Alps. I thought part of travel was the changes in scenery? Of course, they DO go every three months: kind of like the old royal processions, actually of Henry VIII and such...but still. When Henry traveled, he had Hampton Court and Richmond and Windsor, each special.

I'm beginning to dislike DAD immensely, and certainly they fit the mold of "money doesn't buy everything."

Ginny

Ginny - just finished the first 50 pages, an easy book in some ways to read but am getting increasingly angry at this whole Muslim society. If the free women of the world could somehow band together and march over there in protest, somewhat like our own early suffragists, do you suppose we could liberate these poor women!! The only way a woman can be happy if she's widowed, old and past menopause (pg.27) or deformed (pg.36). And we women are unclean and polluted during our "menses." Well! did we ask for this handicap - I never cared for those menstrual periods!! Remember when we called them the "curse" or "falling off the roof."

And on pg. 28 there was tobacco and whiskey in the men's quarters? When our soldiers were over there, both were strictly forbidden to our soldiers and they weren't Muslims!!! Cindy (daughter) said they knew that in the privacy of their homes, it went on, but our soldiers could only drink "near-beer" - had never heard of that till she told me. And those palaces - just like those gorgeous palaces of Saddam Husseins.

In many ways, when Sultana talks of "female manipulation" it reminds me of Pearl Buck's books and the ways that the Chinese women found to manipulate their men, does it you?

And what did you think on pg.31 "the largest MONTHLY stipend was no more than ten thousand dollars" - poor family, I bet they couldn't buy caviar that month from Russia - what did you think they did without?

When I read of their capital Riyadh, it brings back the image of Stormin' Norman during the Gulf War talking to the press. I have a letter signed by him framed on a wall! I was so impressed with him as a leader, even though I'm sure he has a terrible temper. And, of course, Colin Powell was his boss behind the scenes. What days I lived through, heavens!

But I admire this Sultana very much for telling her story and being the person she obviously is and poor Sara - I would beg to be drugged if I were in her shoes! But I do go on too much ----

I just have to have this book--I ordered it from Amazon.com last night and it is on its way. I can`t wait. This should be very interesting. I chuckled when I read about the Suffragists (sp?) going over there. I`d be game.

Have any of you read NOT WITHOUT MY DAUGHTER. I was intrigued by that one too.

May - you will enjoy it! And if you're game, I'm on and I'm sure a lot of other women would help also - if nothing else but just write letters. But this is their religion we are talking about here and portions of the Koran are quoted in the back of the book - a real eye opener! How could we help our "sisters under the veil?" Must be something!

Ella, you've put out some really thought provoking concepts:

- favored wife status - alcohol consumption, even by women, I'd thought it was taboo for all - the "blessing" of the deformed foot for the teacher

Of course education is the answer, but how do you get through this bastion of male dominance? It seems so impossible to penetrate that mind set. There appears to be no depth of sympathy for the plight of the women by the men.

Well, 'nof said for now.

Di

Dianne: I don't think education would do it either. Their laws are going to have to change and since the men make the laws, what chance do the women have? So far, I've read that women cannot travel without written permission from a male, women cannot divorce their husbands (only the men can divorce the wives); women cannot date or see their future husband; their marriages are arranged; husbands may murder their wives with no punishment (in fact, are often honored for doing so); women are not allowed to pray in the mosques; women must be veiled upon their first mentruation period and are now eligible for marriage.

Those are laws!

I almost couldn't get here till I figured out that I had to click on the book in the heading if I went to the folder from the list at the bottom of the Books and Lit opening page.

Lets consider this first week "Introductory" and give people a chance to find the folder and in necessary get or read the book.

My oldest daughter tells me she read this one some years ago. I'll try to get her to join in.

While reading "Undaunted Courage" for one of our upcoming discussions I was astonished to find that some native American Indian Tribes valued (Or failed to value) their women similarly to Arabic culture.

I think Ginny will have some pretty interesting questions and comments and I'm anxious to begin thinking about answers.

Best

LJ

Ella, those are some really tough laws to battle.

The Saudi school in VA received a yes vote. It will be able to accommodate 3500 students. I wonder how many of those laws will hold.

About 6 months ago, do you recall the arrest of two mid-eastern men in our (US) mid west. They had married girls about 13 years old?

Well I know this will be a good discussion.

di

Dianne. Try to find out more about that Islamic school will you? It would be so interesting to know whether females are students; are they wearing the veil; as you said, the curriculum - anything. I would think, politically, it would be difficult for the faculty and students, particularly so near D.C. There is a mosque in Central Ohio - we pass it on our way north on treks to Lake Erie and Michigan. It is beautiful, but sitting out there all alone with nothing around it - always wonder about it.

No, I don't remember the men getting arrested for marrying l3-year old children. Hm. Actually, I'm rather ignorant about the marriage laws in this country - does anyone know? I remember when I was young you had to have your parents permission to marry under the age of 18 (oh, dear, I think I am correct about that? Anyone?)

Yes, Ella you are right concerning the age of consent in the "olden days". Now, I am searching for something! A religion with the reverse of the rules of this controlling religion. Bet we can't find one! Hahahaha! Its so hard to believe that anyone lives like this. Have you been paying attention to the news about the circumcising of women in these countries? Horrible!! e a good friend who converted to one these faiths to marry an Iranian man. Needless to say, the marriage didn't last. Not here in the States! But, at the same time, I can't fault the man as he was raised this way and saw nothing wrong with his faith. Of course, he is a little more informed now and trying to improve the lot of his new wife.

Ann: Haha, am sure we can't either - maybe in the movies somewhere or a fantasy land! LJ said he sees some similarity to the way women are treated here in the Indian tribes (he mentions a book). How did men get the upper hand or the dominance? How far back can we go - was it superior physical strength? I've always thought that men and women compliment each other in so many ways, mentally and physically, and the relationship could be so harmonious - but what interferes? Well, of course, we could name dozens of things, but don't you agree, hypothetically, at least? Cannot agree, Ann, that it is an excuse to say "he was raised this way." Common decency would decree that he treat anybody with respect, man and women alike. Are all Arabic nations like this one - even Egyptian? Long time ago, I read a biography of Anwar Sadat and admired him tremendously - that just comes to mind.

LJ: I left a message for you in the discussion leaders folder - don't know how to put the Graham book online as you requested! Its so wonderful to have you back on board, it feels so comfortable talking to you again and just keep pumping that blood!

ELLA, Ginny left instructions in the Mock-up folder. Just go to the "Discussion Leaders" FILE (Not the Graham file IN the folder) and start the discussion. YOU need to do it so that it will be in YOUR name.

Best

LJ

Ella, as far as the Saudi Academy goes, I've gotten all I know from the local paper. It had caught my eye because we used to live within walking distance of the area 10 yr ago.

As to the men married to 13 yr. olds, that was why they were arrested. The state law prohibited such a union. Seems to me in my youth in Ohio you could marry in IN younger than 18 without parental consent.

About other countries having such laws that put down females, try Shabanu by Suzanne Fisher-Staples? A really well written companion book for Princess. It is the (fictional, I believe, but documented background material) story of a Pakistani (sp.?) girl's coming of age. The book is also recorded. It's extremely good, an easy read and the sequel is even better than the first. I'm waiting for the 3rd book to come out.

Di

Di, Assuming that "IN" means Indiana, You MUST be correct inasmuch as my parents went across the river to get married when my mother was 17. (The Ohio river, between Louisville, KY and Jeffeersonville, Ind.).

Isn't it amazing how religion can distort, ignore, replace, pervert, and make disgusting the basic humanity, sense, logic and goodness of a whole "People".

Best

LJ

P.S. Jim Jones makes more sense than Islam as these people practice it. This is not a country. Its a precivilized group of savages.

Best

LJ

OR, LJ, it may be the human interpretation of "religion" which does what you suggest?

Now on the "questions" for discussion, I had some thoughts in my post of just a while ago: am trying to pause while we all catch up. Tomorrow we'll take up the next 50 pages, so we'll be at page 100, and tomorrow will post some discussion spring boards for us all to react to.

Ella: I had totally forgotten the no alcohol thing, and thus was especially startled to go back and reread the hidden parties!

So.

There's a very interesting article on Iranian custom showing the veils and such in the March 2 issue of U.S. News and World Report and if I can straighten out the various types of Islam and Muslim and then check in the front of THIS book for the populations, it may prove enlightening.

Back at ya: have just so enjoyed the general discussion so far.

Ginny

Hi: I finally got through to Amazon and Princess is on the way. I can't wait to read this. I think religion is a major factor concerning why women consent to this treatment and "under class" citizenship. Look how much religion influences marital relationships here. I am thinking of the accusation by some conservative religious groups that all the decline of the family is because women are working outside the home. The "keep them poor and pregnant" is not just the philosophy of South American males, I learned when working with families in crisis. My mother had taught for five years and had a contract to teach the following year when she married my father. He said nothing prior to the wedding but as soon as the knot was tied he said "my wife will not work" and so my mother didn't teach. During world war II, our school was so strapped for teachers, that she taught for the "War Effort" - since my father voluntarily went back into the army for the duration, I guess he couldn't object. Anyway, all three of his daughters formed two career families, we also reared children, helped husbands, etc. He never ceased to be amazed that our children - who were of course those absolutely brillant, wonderful grandchildren turned out so well! Ironically, all four of my brothers wives have been homemakers - even in today's society! Of course, they do a giant portion of the volunteer work in my home town! Ella, have you read much about the sufferagette movement and Susan B. Anthony? Of yes, in Florida when I was growing up, it was necessary for females to have parents consent to marry until they were 21. One of my sisters married at 17 and my father would not consent until my sister's prospective father-in-law talked with my father and convinced him that he should approve the marriage. He had consented for his daughter to marry when she graduated from high school and he pointed out that it was a good marriage. Fathers and husbands seem reluctant to give up this power. My husband sometimes teases me about the good old days before women were liberated but he shapes right up when I threaten him with a reduced allowance and bread and water. This discussion is going to be goooooood!~ L.J. are you back with us? I have tried to send you messages to "get with it and get well" but they have been returned marked "fatal error - not deliverable."

Joyce, well, you'll have a field day with this one!! Today we're to be to page 100, and I read that last night, and I'm sorry, but rape of 8 year old girls?

OK, I'm not much of an activist, but WHERE do we write and WHAT can we do to get these poor women out of this monstrosity of a culture?

I think LJ is right: they're bestial.

I was going to ask you all if there were any way we could find out how Ali turned out: don't need to wonder any more.

WHAT s it? You can't blame all this on religion. Paul said let the women be silent in the church and yet you see women lay ministers, clergy and Lay readers?? No, there's something else at work here.

WHERE are the wonderful peace loving Saudis sold to us in the Gulf War? THIS is what our own glorious men and women risked their lives for? Hello??

General obeservations, All, for today: tomorrow some (how can anybody ask) discussion questions.

In August, as some of you know, I was in London, and got pink eye: had to go to Harley Street to the doctor. Like a page out of Sherlock Holmes. And while I sat in the waiting room in came a woman totally shrowded in black with a silk mask (Bedouin??). She was taken back almost immediately. Then while we sat, in HE came!! Rampaging thru the waiting room like a bull, speaking to no one, tore thru the reception right back into the doctor's chambers--just so. Did not come out. WHAT, he sat and watched? Looked a very unpromising specimen to me.

Now I know WHY women should join a tour to Egypt, as I've been told women are nothing to Egyptian men, and it's not safe or pleasant.

No wonder they cry when beaten in war. They aren't men to start with. Disgusting. We MUST do something.

Ginny

Fortunately, only the errors were fatal, Joyce.

Best

LJ

Wow! Is this discussion fun - I have so much to say to all of your posts and I haven't even read the next 50 pages. First of all, in our Sunday paper I noticed that March is Women's History Month and Sunday was International Women's Day. Let me quote from a paragraph in an article. "I see some hope in the efforts made by women in other countries, as they struggle to make their lives better. One such group, little-known in the United States, is WOMEN LIVING UNDER MUSLIM LAWS. This network of women in more than 25 countries, such as Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Senegal, works to find ways to respond to women's rights violations in Islamic countries or communities. They deciper and reinterpret Islamic laws in a way that allows women to be free and whole people. No doubt they find support in the United Nation's recent launching of a three-year international campaign against female genital mutilation."

The author of the column has an email address: dalyam@hotmail.com. I, for one, am going to email her and ask her for the address of this women's organization (if there is one) and perhaps we can all write to them, ask what we can do to help and lend our support. What say you?

More later - but Joyce I must respond a bit to your remark about suffragists, etc. Some years ago (my, they go by fast), I took a Women's Studies course at Ohio State University - I love taking these odd courses from time to time. I could go on and on about that one, but yes, we studied all the history of women, Susan B. Anthony and the like. All the women who took up the "cause" had to be independently wealthy, of course, or they couldn't have spent the money or time to establish the settlement houses and travel as they did. Did you read Katharine Hepburn's book? She has a lot in there about her mother who was a suffragist (again, wealthy).

There is a case to be made both for/against women working. We could spend hours discussing it, couldn't we? Shall we open up a discussion about it - quoting various books we've read, and our opinions? Would be fun - we'll let the men come in to, promise!!!!

First didn't I read in Princess that the Saudi interpretation of the religious laws were more strict then what Ala prescribed for women?

Ella, in todays news concerning the International Women's Day, Afghanistan's army (the Taliban) which controls 85% of Afghanistan forced women to quit their jobs, closed schools for girls and forbade women to appear outside their homes without the all-enveloping garment known as the burqa. Women who travel with an unrelated male can be stoned to death.

A seven-woman panel led by European union human Rights Commissioner, Emma Bonino, is trying to persuade governments, to sign an appeal for fewer restrictions on Afghan women.

Bonio was condemned by an Afghan minister of info saying,"She and the others are infidels who want to see women shed their veils and bring humiliation to our traditions and our religion."

Hi: Saw an interesting program (well, not so much interesting as frightening) called "Defending our daughters" about womens rights in the world. The frightening part was that families that have migrated to the U.S. still want the right to practice the same way - some under the "protection" of religious freedom. Much of the program was about female genital mutilation which is actually not a religious practice. It was on Lifetime and narrated by Meryl Streep. Did anyone see it. There was a number to call for information and ways to help. Chills run down my spine just thinking about the program.

Sent an email off to Dalye F. Massachi asking her for the address of that Muslim Women's organization. Dalya is a writer living in the San Franciso area. Will let you know when/if I hear from her.

Yes, Ella, do. Just one little effort: but we know in their own country these men will not listen.

What was that about Faisal on TV last night? Said he was a diabetic? Missed most of it.

Now, I'm putting up some thoughts for discussion here today, but I'm wondering as a point of curiosity: did you notice the woman on the cover of the book is wearing red stockings?

Now I do see I have been ignorant of their religion: Muslim IS Islam, IS Muslim. There are Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

What do you think of the topics above, or any other thing which comes to your mind in these first 102 pages??

Ginny

Other than rage and contempt for this subhuman culture, very little else has a chance to surface in my mind about most of this book, but then I'm not a "Right Wing Republican"

Best

LJ

Here is what I received from the writer I emailed. So nice of her to answer (wish I could get prompt answers from publishers for the Seniornet Book).

Dear Ella:

Thank you for your encouraging note! I always like to hear from readers who have found something valuable in my words. I hope you have seen some of my other columns, as I have been writing them for about a year. My topics are almost always about some aspect of gender and/or race relations.

I can give you two resources about Women Living Under Muslim Laws. First, their contact address:

Women Living Under Muslim Laws" is a worldwide network of women and women's groups living in Muslim countries and communities. It also provides information through dossiers and facilitates interaction between Muslim women and progressive and feminist groups at large.

Contact: Shirkat Gah, Women's Resource Centre, 38/8 Sarwar Road, Lahore Cantt., Pakistan. OR c/o International Solidarity Network, Boite Postale 23, 34790 Grabels, France. Tel: 033-67 84 27 59*

You also can read more about them on the web at: Web Site: More About Muslim Women

One of the purposes of my column is to engage readers in a discussion and/or action around the issues I raise. Your letter tells me I'm starting to do that. Let me know what happens as you work to support this group!

Again, thanks for writing.

--Dalya

______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

I am going to write and will check out that email site.

(Edit Note: I made the above reference clickable. Larry)

Ella, if you have read the book by Ken Follett about going in to get out the Peron employees out of Iran in the 80's, you find the same lack of intellect when it comes to women. That was my first connection to this mistreatment. Made me sick! I believe I did mention the article on female circumcision. I just couldn't believe it went on. Turns out that it is done in some of the African countries as well. Good for you, in contacting the lady in S.F.! Maybe if enough of us are educated on this, we can find a way to help these poor ladies. What a way to live!

Wow! This forum is very interesting! I started reading "Princess" today as a result of reading the responses last night. As a born and raised American male, I find the culture in Saudi Arabia, nor in any culture that does not treat females with equality to males, not to my liking. Why do we as a human race treat females in a subserviant role? Should we condemn Saudi Arabia when we live in a like (but not nearly as condemning) culture? Latin Americans, Eskimos, Japanese, and many more cultures do not treat their females with equality. Marylyn Savont wrote in an article recently: "Men created the world and women must civilize it". The mention of women having no control over their sexual desires is ludricous (page 22). The study of social science is filled with illustrations that it is the male of the human species that has no control over his sexual desires..read today's newspaper and you will find many examples.

John! Welcome, welcome! Loved your post.

That's a good question you raise, too: Why do we as a human race treat females in a subservient role? Good question.

It's a learned behavior from very unlearned (in what matters) people, if you ask me.

Ginny

Ella - thanks for the web site there is also a group that can be contacted in the U.S. about women from these oppressive cultures who live in the U.S. and how some of their practices conflict with our human rights laws. I will look it up and post it. When I started reading this book, I found it hard to stop. It is so hard to believe. Over 35 years ago, I was talking with a missionary to one of the Arab countries and she said things were improving because of mission schools and orphanages that would take unwanted babies - deformed or female - and females that had "disgraced" their families. Many of these women became owners and operators of small businesses, usually involving weaving or needlework and they hired and trained women and children as well as teaching them. It really distresses me that more progress has not been made. It must be very hard for females in these cultures to develop even a sense of self worth much less real self-esteem. I thought it was interesting when Sultana indicated that this oppression of women also meant unhappiness for males. Probably the reason the men have separate quarters is they fear women would kill them as they slept if they shared the same quarters. I think these women need massive doses of "consciousness-raising."

The rape of the eight yr.old girl by Ali and his friend enraged me. How any human being, man or woman, can take pleasure, even laugh at such an atrocity is beyond me.

Ella, I too thank you for your research and email address.

LJ, I did not understand the right wing comment.

I've attempted to think of what persuades people to change. Peer pressure often works, but in this case I don't think these men care about what the world thinks. As we've seen, the women face death or torture if they rebel. How horribly sad.

I thought the reference to right wing political moves to control the lives and choices of American women was fairly obvious.

Best

LJ

I agree, Diana, the rape of the eight year old girl made me really feel physically sick. I have an eight year old granddaughter and the thought of someone violating her like that is beyond my comprehension. The book is certainly an eye opener for me. I am only about one half done, but do hope to finish it this weekend.

Yes, the rape and laughing about it is reprehensible. It is obvious that females were not regarded as "humans" at least not as human as males. What I find almost as horrible is female genital mutilation and this is done by their own female relatives! This is not religious or secular law so I was surprised it was used in the ruling class because these women had so little opportunity to even see males without supervision. It is still used among the lower classes but it is strange how this came to be. I was amazed at the chances these women took - but to be drowned by your own family is unthinkable. Sultana's young step mother may have been relieved that she was only sent back (divorced) to her father in disgrace. I will probably finish the book this week-end too. I have difficulty stopping once I start with it. It does seem there is hope since Suntana's husband seems more "enlightened." However, her mother-in-law's acceptance of her was to be expected - after all, this was a good marriage for her son and thus for her. Even today in many segments of our culture a good marriage for a son or daughter is a serious consideration in families. A lady in my home town once said to my daughter when she learned that she was related to my family and my husband's - both from the same county - "I knew those two families would intermarry some day so they can own the whole county." When I explained what was meant by the remark, my daughter was appalled. Thank heaven our daughters and sons are not pressured to make such material alliances. However, I don't think we have moved beyond regarding females for their physical beauty - here, we may be more primative than Sultana's family. At least, they cover their girls with black "shrouds" supposedly to make all women look alike. I loved the fact that Sultana wore red shoes. As dangerous as it was I can't help but admire her spunk.

I've posted a message but it never appeared - computer problems, I guess (I reinstalled that MSN 2.5 version - hope they have the bugs worked out by now).

Wanted to tell Ginny those are excellent questions. I will attempt them later, but have a couple of my own. How do the prostitutes dress in this country? Are they subject to the morals policeman? And am wondering if the morals policeman ever arrest men for any offenses, or are they just taught to harass and arrest women? If you had a choice (and I'm not advocating prostitution), would you choose to be a prostitute or a bride married off to a horrible 68 year old man who has 4 other wives and is known to beat them? Seems to me the prostitutes have more freedom. And before we condemn the Egyptian woman for selling her children into prostitution, I think we should consider that perhaps she has smaller children at home that are starving and this is her only hope of providing any sustenance. "There but for the grace of God, go I." Meanwhile, if I get my new printer working, I'm going to write this Muslim organization a letter and write a letter to my local paper asking others to do the same.

On pg. 70 Hadi, who is studying at a Religious Institute to become a morals policeman, believes that women are the cause of all evil on earth,(I wonder if he hates his mother), but on page 80 he buys the women's services and condemns them for their role in the act. I think here we see a classic case of self-hatred, lashing out at others because we hate what we are doing. A few good psychiatrists in that country could do wonders for these men, but, of course, they wouldn't go.

Ella and All: Fabulous points, Everyone! I love this discussion. You're all so far ahead in the book, I'm not sure what's going on! Mutliation: tell me that's not coming up, too.

Want to mutilate some men in the book.

Ella: have put up your questions, too. They're good.

If I had been Randa, would have been delighted to get away from ol DAD unless, of course, a worse fate awaits. Is she now disgraced and doomed? Do they mention her again?

I keep thinking, everywhere I go, first blood, first blood. Whose business is it, anyway, and why so much interest? These people are BESTIAL, excuse me, BESTIAL. Hello??

I'm certainly going to write wherever when Ella gets the info.

Ginny

The last 40-50 pages of the book (Escape) were great. Although the action is swift and written as though it were spontaneous, obviously there was a great deal of preplaning on the Mother's part, and it was very smoothly and efficiently executed. I enjoyed that part very much, otherwise the book sent me from rage to greater rage with each ensuing experience.

As a religion, Islam seems to follow the pattern of Christianity, but refines the cruelty and barbarism of the church.

Best

LJ

Ginny - look at post #40. There are 2 addresses you may write to, perhaps you might want to post them up. Just mailed off a letter to our local paper giving this address for women to write to; also mentioned Seniornet and gave our address and the fact that we are discussing this book. We'll see if the letter gets published. Am now writing to the organization in France.

Have not gotten to the mutilation part yet, except that stuff the women stuck all over Sara before she was married and then pulled off all her body hair! OUCH!!! Did read the chapter about the maid from the Phillipines and her friend. Oh, how awful. My daughter was an exchange student to Colombia when she was in high school. She lived with a very wealthy family that had loads of servants - a family member would just call out to a maid to bring her/him a glass of water or a Kleenex - it was so ridiculous for Cindy to endure. Hard for her to hold her tongue. She loved the maids and tried to help them but they asked her not to; they valued their jobs, it was their only source of income!

Ella: You are the eternal optimist. I just don't have that much faith in psychiatrists. L.J. - I think the Christian faith in the last part of the 20th century is not quite as barbaric as Muslim sects. Of course, we still have our holy wars - I have always thought the Protestant-Catholic conflict in Ireland is barbaric but I was once assured by an Irish Catholic that it was really a war against the British Monarchy! ?? The mutilation in this book is beyond belief. I am trying to find out if it is still done among the educated classes in Saudi Arabia. It is no longer practiced by Egyptian Muslims I am told. However, it is still practiced some other third world cultures that Islam is not their "State" religion. I want to hurry to the escape chapter, I hope for a happy ending but one would seem to be unrealistic.

Joyce: Let us know if you find out anything about this mutilation business still being practiced on women. It was somewhat encouraging to read that Sultana's father listened to a Western physician and did not require that his younger children go through this dreadful "circumsion." Also, on page 152, Sultana quotes an old Arab proverb "Patience is the key to solutions." Perhaps with patience on their part (although it would be difficult wouldn't it?), and more younger princes being educated in Western societies and possibly becoming more powerful as time goes on, a few of these ancient practices might be outlawed. What do you think?

One very good example of hypocrisy in this country is the fact of alcohol being served in all the royal households, although it is forbidden in their society! And I answered my own question - men can be arrested by the morals cops for being drunk, selling or possessing liquor - outside of their own homes, of course!

Sultana's green silk suit sounds lovely, doesn't it? And I noticed that she, with other females, did their shopping at Harrods of London - owned by Dodi Fayeed's father who is of Arab descent. Does anyone know what country they are from? I know Fayeed is forever angry at the British for refusing him citizenship (or, at least, I think I read that - a "senior" moment perhaps?) The wealth of these family members is astonishing, isn't it? Sultana thinking nothing of buying her mother-in-law an $80,000 necklace! And these palaces!!

Actually, (and don't hit me, please) I think the pictures shown in the book of the Arab women in veils are rather romantic looking - seductive eyes showing - and, of course, if you have a good figure, that would show up, too!! Also, it could be of help if you were rather plain-faced, don't you think?

I finished and am emotionally exhausted. The thought kept coming to me about the poverty in Saudi yet the ruling class' wealth and extravagence is absolutely vulgar. This is all because of oil wealth. In 1906 when Sultana's ancestors came to power,(pre-oil) I wonder what their life was like. Also, I think their was some fiction involved concerning Sultana's "settlement" with her husband when she 'ran away with the children.' And she did this without a lawyer! Wow! Does anyone remember when the American well-heeled female married the Shah of Iran? I couldn't imagine an American (U.S) female adjusting to that environment no matter how much "freedom" her wealth bought her! Islam seems to be a hold over from the first milinium! Of course, I am not known for having great patience but I don't this going slowly and patience will work for these women - but, I believe men worldwide will have to be enlisted before the drastic changes that need to be made can be made. L.J. - Are you suggesting there are Republicans that are not right wing. (Couldn't resist asking but then I am not a great respecter of any politicians). Don't you wonder that brothers like Ali survive when they have sisters who hate them so much? Also, Sara seemed to have such an awful time at first then she obviously ended with the best marriage. This seemed to have some fiction too, but perhaps the writer added some of these incidents to add hope to the book and further disguise Sultana's identity.

Of course Joyce, sometimes one just HAS to take the good with the bad.

Best

LJ

Joyce: This will disclose my age, although am not hiding it, but didn't Rita Hayworth marry an Arab? She married some foreigner of immense wealth, I believe, and did she have a child by him? Just a bit of trivial memory popping up.

I put Ella's information in the heading, and am way behind you all, struggling to catch up and afraid of what I'll read.

Ginny

PS: Ali Kahn, wasn't it, Ella? As the daughter is called Yasmin Kahn, I believe? I could be wrong.

What country was he from, Ginny?

Can't remember, Ella! Wasn't there an AGA Khan, too? Am, as usual, confused.

Ginny

Well, I am finished with "The Princess" and as one person posted, I too am emotionally exhausted. I found this book so interesting that I also read the sequel to it called "Princess Sultana's Daughters", by the same author. I think that you all will also enjoy the sequel, and at times it is more graphical when it comes to female mutilation and sexual atrocities by the men in the book. I am a man and I am sure glad I was born in The United States of America and was raised under the Christian religion. It's funny that I never "really" appreciated our culture or lifestyle until I read these two books. Talk to you all later on the next non-fiction.

One may now better understand the Ancient Hebrew daily morning prayer for Men which states: "I Thank God that I was Not born a Woman" Best LJ

Been trying to catch up. My husband had surgery - doing pretty well now. This was a great book to distract me and definitely hold my attention.

Joyce, you came up with some good insights. Were you thinking of Queen Noor of Jordan, probably about 50 now? She really made an attempt to upgrade the lives of Jordanian women. Her background was 1/2 mid-eastern. I believe, so she went back to her roots! What a story she might give us. I think the king she married took yet another wife.

Di

I, too am trying to catch up!! Come back, John, and help us discuss!!

I LOST Princess, would you believe....reorganizing house, and Princess disappeared, am almost caught up, reading about circumcision, no anesthesia, boy o boy, I better not ever hear a word about the noble Saudis again, will never think of them in the same light.

Di: So glad to see you back, was worried about you, just about to write!

No, now, that Noor, is one thing but that Hope whatever of Sikkim is another. She was American, I believe, but went to live in Sikkim where she promptly forgot how to speak English, very snotty indeed, but behold, she's back. Must have been divorced. Maybe widowed. Would like to know: shows you what happens when a person tries to be something they're not. Lesson for us all, maybe. I remember reading about her in disgust.

Likewise circumcision: no anesthesia, cannot BELIEVE the IGNORANCE shown here. You keep reading breathlessly in the hopes there will BE a redeeming grace, but there's not one!

So far.

Ginny

I need to comment on the topic of circumcision of the girls in Saudi Arabia. I didn`t have a clue that anything like this existed. I have three granddaughters and can not even think of any one violating them in that way--how these poor women have been brainwashed--

Book due back at library - must finish up my comments. Am afraid I'll get carried away at that last chapter, though! First, the escape chapter - do you think Sultana wore western clothes through Europe? She would more easily be noticed I would think, wouldn't you? And hiring servants in France - could she speak French? Do they bury all their dead in the desert? And these prostitutes they fly over from France - it's all too much for me to contemplate - that poor girl locked up forever in a room of darkness, OH!!

But it was that last chapter - "The Great White Hope" that got to me, as my precious daughter went over there as a nurse when her medical field unit got called up. I raged at it all, and then I broke down in tears and carried on! Every time Bush would come on TV and talk about that madman, and human injustices, and the like, I would yell at him - but it's not your precious daughter who might be gassed or nuked! It's all about oil, and tell the truth, Bush - I, for one, would be willing to take a bus anywhere or walk, rather than one of our young people give their lives for those oil-rich, sadistic royal highnesses that we read were fleeing their country! (As Ali did!) Oh, if there had been a protest march, I would have been at the head of it yelling, "Hell No, we won't go!" And my daughter telling me of all those innoculations she had to have - I yelled again - they are experimental and refuse them!! She did, quite calmly, tell me she wouldn't take any that the doctors refused! She was so calm, at least, on the surface and I'm afraid I didn't help her at all. I was like a tigress protecting her child, growling at everyone! And they had to practice putting on their protective gear with gas mask in so many seconds, it was terrifying! We stayed at a motel close to her base for the last week so we could see her every evening for a couple of hours, and when these busloads of women (mothers, grandmothers) pulled out, while their husbands, children, grandchildren waved goodbye, my husband couldn't hold his tears either and walked away saying "this isn't my kind of war."

I did warn you I would carry on!!! But I must tell you one more thing (that's what nice about this kind of conversation, no one can tell you it's boring!). After not getting mail for several weeks (remember the pictures of the mail stacked up there at the airport in Daharan) we got a phone call from our daughter. Strange, in a war, eh? She had been standing in line for a couple of hours to make it (bless AT&T's heart for setting this up). I asked her right away if she was in Daharan - there was this long silence, and then she said we must not name people or places for fear of enemies' listening. I was so terrified, and horrified that I had done this, that I was speechless and couldn't talk anymore. All I could think of was the WW II poster "Loose lips can sink ships" To this day, I cannot/will not tell anybody where she was located!!!

And then to read in this book, in this chapter, that Saudi Arabia is afraid of training an army for fear a strong force could topple the throne. I could hardly finish the book!

Enough. I do feel very sad for the plight of these women, I hope in time things will improve for them (Sultana's husband seemed to think so), but they cannot expect us to rescue them from their enemies forever - or can they? P.S. My daughter came home safely, no Gulf War Syndrome, and is teaching at Michigan State. However, she wants to stay in the Army Reserve - and retire from there, she enjoys the comraderie there, the various courses the Army has given her, the leadership qualities she has gained. She is soon to be a Lt.Colonel. She just doesn't listen to me very well as I want her out of there! Nothing worse than an independent child!

We are interrupting this discussion for a brief message:

KATHARINE GRAHAM'S FASCINATING BOOK "PERSONAL HISTORY" will be discussed starting April 20th. Get your book soon, reserve it at Library, or buy it. Best Buy has the paperback discounted at 35%. IT'S THE BEST BOOK YOU WILL EVER READ ON WATERGATE AND ONE WOMAN'S PLACE IN HISTORY!!

We will now resume our regularly scheduled program. Thank you.

Can you stand one more commercial?


MARCH MADNESS Comes to Books & Lit!


NCAA FINAL FOUR

Feeling Lucky? You might just win the May book selection,
The Color of Water


Deadline for all guesses is MIDNIGHT, March 27!


March Madness Headquarters
THANKS!

Ella, what a fabulous post! Good thing you didn't read this book BEFORE she went!! I remember all that stuff about alcohol, too, now. Hah.

May: impossible, isn't it, to believe? I'm just now finished page 202, am sort of surprised at a number of things, hubby socks her in the face, slaps three times, that's OK, such excesses of money, such...like children with no idea of what to do with it. But Sultana herself makes some very telling remarks about women, am going back, I marked them, and print them out here. Guess the whole thing caught up with her, too.

Back later,

Ginny

My post was consumed again by some wicked cyber editor I presume. Once more with feeling!

LJ, in the Road discussion you mentioned your personal space being invaded. I taught English as a 2nd Lang. in the late 70s. The mothers got so close that I felt I could identify dental problems.

Dianne, You didn't mention the cultural background of your students. I had not noticed that amongst people in Mexico, nor in this country, among Indians, caucasians, or those of hispanic backgropunds. I think that's why I associated it with living on a small Island.

Of course there's always that "Chance" individual who just want's to get too close for comfort.

Best

LJ

I finally finished Princess last evening and must say it held my interest. I am like the rest of you that on almost every page I would think "Is this really the way it is"?

I think this book shows very well the strength that culture has on a society as to what is acceptable or unacceptable in a society. It seemed that the men could justify any action they took, or at least the royals could, whether it be drinking and drugs or fooling around outside their marriages. However, women were held as possessions and held to a very strict standard. I had never heard of the "women's Room" where a woman was isolated and left in the dark until she goes mad and dies. That is the most cruel treatment I can think of. While the stoning is barbaric, at least it would be over.

I ended up with some very strong feelings about the Desert Storm and our participation to save the Saudi's to help maintain the royal family in power. Where were the human rights advocates.

This book certainly makes me aware of how little I know of other cultures as I had never heard enough about life in Saudi to even really think about it.

The discussions of the wealth of the royals is staggering. Four palaces and three lear jets and having hundreds of thousands of dollars in your home is beyond my comprehension.

Is the description of the life of women still the norm in Saudi? This would make an interesting web search.

Larry

Larry, Someone said that he had read a sequel,"Princess Sultana's Daughters", but Amazon com. didn't recognize the title.

The entire Middle East is one of those enigmatic things much like (but far worse than) Ireland. Those people have been fighting over desert, and killing each other for various and often no, reasons for over 6000 years. I wonder why we think we can effect "Peace" where ALL the "Gods" have failed.

Best

LJ

The front page of the NY Times has a huge article on women in India, am going to read it and see if they have the same miserable life. If you read Not Without My Daughter you'd have seen the same thing happening in Iran (are they Muslims too?) You know, I hate to be that ignorant, but if that's the way they treat their women, I don't care what they are!

I don't know, Larry, it WOULD be interesting to know if things are still the same!

Ginny

PS: In answer to one of the questions above, I think the "evil nature " of the country stems from people just running roughshod over others whom they can victimize by bending their conception of the religious laws to support their horrendous behavior. Just excess in all things without end or restraint. When I THINK of Desert Storm......

With the dominance and control that the Saudi men and the religious police maintain over the whole country there doesn't appear to be much hope for women and change. Even if there was an overthrow of the royal family, would the culture prevent meaningful change. I also would wonder if the US would stand by and allow that to happen as it would disrupt the balance of control in the area and possibly some our oil supply.

I find it hard to emotionally accept our inhumanity to one another. My mind says it must be so when I read a book like this one or read about the killing fields, the conditions in many African countries where groups within countries are killing their own people. Perhaps this information age is making us more aware than ever before as I doubt that things are really much different than they have been for a long time.

Larry

And Africa's not the only place, it seems: the NY Times article is about women in India who are widowed. It seems if they are, they become the servants of the mother in law or family. They are nothing, and their last name is adopted, meaning servant. They are abused sexually by any and all in the family who want.

There's sort of a central refuge they can go to, right below New Delhi, where they chant during the day and live on virtually nothing. But their lives are pitiful.

Apparently the British prohibited "purdah" (the burning of the widow after the death of her husband), but their present lot is not much better. They are married, sometimes as young as 12 and cut off from their families. If their husband should die, that's it: they cannot marry again.

It's karma or something.

So they become the slave of the husband's family, and there may be land disputes too.

Boy, does it or does it not make you so glad you live here??

WE don't appreciate what we've got half the time, either.

I wish Patrick would come in and tell us what he saw, will write him.

Ginny

Heavens, Ginny! The widows become the servants in the mother-in-law's house - is this part of their religious laws as in Saudi Arabia, or just culture? You would think the children of the marriage would not allow their mother to be treated so terribly - where is love for their mother?

Larry - I agree with you, but don't want to! The U.S. will probably defend Saudi Arabia again if it is threatened by enemies - do you agree with me that it is all about oil? The whole middle east is a mess politically, economically, culturally, or do I think that because I live in a free country. These religious laws are what are hard for me to understand - how can they justify their attitudes or behaviour with any religion?

Did you see the part about maybe they weren't so happy at first to have the US Military at all? Let them do it next time. Jealous of the women? Let them do it.

The "Woman's Room" or whatever they call it is nauseating.

I'm having trouble believing the end of the book. Anybody who was clever enough to get away and have all that money squirreled away that went BACK to the husband: nope, don't believe it. Maybe it was changed for identity's sake. Then she got VD. Good grief.

Ella: threw the thing away, apparently it's a little of both, because where these women can go for refuge IS a religious shrine, and yet they adopt the last name Servant there too, and are afraid to talk even THERE about sexual abuse, so I guess it's both. In a country where girl babies used to be routinely drowned, I guess it's better than being burned alive when your husband dies.

The woman the article featured had remained in bondage to her Mother In Law for 30 years till she fled in desperation.

Apparently the children were happy with the estate effects, and this is just a way of life.

The Chinese used to be the same way, didn't they? If you married a man you were a virtual slave to both his parents, I believe.

So glad to live in the USA!

Ginny

Oh, also, the NY Times article quoted the woman who had been in slavery for 30 years to her Mother In Law as saying she would have liked to remarried, but it was her karma, her bad karma which had killed her first husband, or allowed him to die, and so why visit that on another one?

Ginny

Hi there again you all. Here is the information on the sequel to "Princess". Title: Princess Sultana's Daughters Author: Jean Sasson Dell Paperback Copyright 1994 By Sasson Corp. Published simultaneously in Canada, March 1995 Cost US $5.99 Canada $7.99

I bought mine at our local "Bookstar".

If you read it you will really enjoy it.

JJJJr

John: Thanks for that! Does anybody want to read another Sultana book or maybe Not Without My Daughter ? The Sultana book is reasonable enough?

What do you think??

Ginny

Thanks John, I ordered it today.

Ginny, Perhaps some of us could read one and the rest of us the other. Then we could compare notes about the two.

Best

LJ

Please pardon this brief interruption...


It's time to start thinking of the next Great Book Selection! You are welcome (and encouraged) to register your preferences! Lots of ways to get into the discussion. For starters, just click this nifty graphic the banner-makers have created...