---Rembrandt's Eyes by Simon Schama ~ 7/5/05-5/31/ Export

Well a bright good morning to you all and welcome welcome to the first day (and hopefully not the last) hahaha of

embrandt's Eyes!

Just could not resist that one tho I fear I might be a tad off on the timing, still, 1600's...that will be my first jobbie this morning in what looks like an ocean of looking up things hahahaa, good thing we've got YOU, to find out when the Renaissance ends. But my questions don't stop there.

As you can see we're trying to read ONLY one page per day and I think you can see why people pick UP this heavy tome and put it down again, with vague promises and pats to "do better" next time.

As this is a different format, I want to approach it differently too, so away with the questions in the heading, let's just chat amongst ourselves and ask our questions HERE in our posts and see how that works.

First off, how did this approach affect you? I mean here you are all ready to learn about Rembrandt and if you're like me you're somewhat chuffed to find NO lengthy Prologue, NO lengthy Introduction (whew) and bingo, you're…… suddenly…..on the first page….

?

But where ARE you? What is 's Hertogengosch?

's?

Where ARE we? This is… (is it?) a writing technique called in medias res in the middle of things, we're plunged right in, but does it help or confuse?

This Constantijn Huygens is apparently at war? The Prince of Orange? Who is he? Does that bring forth guilty remembrances of that period of time you skipped over in history class? How is tijn pronounced?

The references here are thick and fast. Scipio? Art as a document to record heroic deeds or acts? Is THIS concept strange to you?

What's a "great masque?"

It seemed to have a pattern, do you know this type of parade, have you seen any other instances of it anywhere you can point US to?

Why would "mountebanks" be marching in a parade? What are they?

"pasteboard dolphins and dragons?"

"triumphal cars a l'antique?"

what on earth? Do you feel as if you fell thru the looking glass?

In the bottom paragraph we apparently have a scene of war, in contrast to this "masque" …parade?

We have cuirassiers and harquebusiers, not words seen too often in today's newspapers, what are they?

What are "sappers?"

And then there are others in various stages of repose, snoring, smoking or hanging from a gibbet? Hello?

Holy smoke! Hahahaa

We end with a mortar launched grenade and the Dog Star sky, and it's about this time that people put the book down with a few pats and say, OK ok that is rich, and great, love it, I'll just put it down for the night….day….week.

OK so since we are trying something brand new, let's try to say what we don't want.

Obviously if we don't know what those terms mean or what's being alluded to, we can't enjoy the book? On the other hand we don't want to turn the discussion into a dictionary exercise/ google lecture either. What to DO?

Let's have both, let's have, for those of you who do understand what on earth he's talking about, give us ONE point, each of us choose just one thing to explain so we can understand that one thing, just pick one of the hundred here.

Then let's have your personal reactions, since we're only discussing ONE page a day on how this approach affected YOU personally. Did you have an uncontrollable urge to peek on the next page in hopes of understanding what's going on or seeing the word Rembrandt or wondering where HE fit in? It seems Schama (I'm dogmatically sticking to one page) is anxious to " paint" for us, himself, in words, the environs. If we only understood what he was saying we'd be in good shape.

What IS he saying?

Interesting thing, just a personal aside, once in Carcasonne a friend wanted to buy a small metal soldier but had trouble indicating to the salesperson which one. The saleslady asked in French did she want the halberdier and so I translated that for my friend who asked much later what's a halberdier? I would not have known had it not been for the books of EF Benson, and here's another… type? Halquebusiers.....or IS it a type of halberdier?

What's a Quiddity? I do see a Latin root word there, should I assume? It might be fun to guess what we think it is and then look it up?

And finally! Do you agree or disagree with this statement in the Frontispiece? "We should apologize for daring to speak about painting."---Paul Valery.

What does THAT mean? Why not speak about painting, how else can we learn? OR??

Hahaha Lots of room for thought, grab your own brass ring and let's see how many of us can understand something on this first page before tomorrow and (gasp) another page!

I hope this is enough spark to get a fire roaring in this, our first foray into this book, what are your thoughts on any of this or what struck YOU in this first page??

A 's Hertogenbosch for your thoughts!!

Welcome!

PS: Oh and by the way did you happen to look up that first footnote?

Good Morning Ginny and All,

Well I will take one thing and one thing only because I do not have time to spend here this morning. I have grief support group meeting this morning. So I will make it short and come back later in the day.

The Prince of Orange was William. He married Mary of England and they became joint rulers of England. I am sure everyone knows William and Mary. Orange was the ruling family of the Netherlands at the time.Here is one link for you to look at for more information> William of Orange I know there must be much information and many links on this but don't have anymore time this morning. Be back this afternnon.

Joan Grimes

... are a favorite ... before the FDA, there were mountebanks!
please see the link below.

Does anyone remember the scene in Sweeny Todd, which came to mind when I looked at the link:
roving barbers also sold elixirs and tonics to cure all ills.

Ginny, I think this page-a-day might work (hope it does!) with your list of questions
as you posted this morning! It took real restraint to only post one response.

Montebank

Mipppy. I hope it works, too, but you can always say anything else you like about the page, the ONE THING was just one fact looked up or brought forward, the OPINION thing is free and open, haahaha So don't hold back!

Thank you for that Montebank, it seems to have had a different meaning before it came to the States, and I am wondering what on earth he was doing in a masque I thought masque was some sort of pageant, not a parade! I wonder what montebank means, the etymology.

I did not connect it with Sweeny Todd, but I have heard of the barber as physician, wonder where that originated??

So many doors to open and when you do, something else great peeks out!

Joan G, thank you for that link about William of Orange, I did not know William of William and Mary WAS of Orange! I think we're talking about an earlier Orange here in 1629, tho, in Frederik Hendrik, but I love that link, and did not know that connection, or what the "Orange" signified. In fact, I did not know half of that:

Short, asthmatic, stooped bad teeth and beaked nose. His family: Nassau was unhealthy and suffered from mysterious fevers of a tubeercular nature. Wiilliam was always weak and had a constant consumptive cough.

That is a super link, every short paragraph is an eye opener, and he still managed to be "the" William and Mary. Your link says he was determined to save the Netherlands and get rid of Imperial France, amazing, and that's also germane to what we're reading about, and lasted until the 1700s and our own Revolution, it's amazing how history ties itelf together. I think what William and Mary did to Hampton Court Palace was a great shame, but I can see how they felt it was an improvement. I'm glad, tho, that some of Henry's Tudor stuff still remains.

It's hard for me to realize that the Netherlands was such a power at one time (or was it?) I don't think of the Netherlands as any power, but I have a feeling I am going to find out I am wrong.

I can see this will definitely be a super experience, one door opens onto a world of new things! What do the rest of you think, about the approach or anything else, come and tell us your thoughts and your one Fact o the Day, if you have one, I've already learned a LOT!

I have a question.

In the link to William of Orange it says "He removed the tyranny of games." What does this mean? Does anyone know? What games and why were they tyrannical?

I am looking forward to this discussion.

Judy

Of course I've peeked, and read a few pages already, as I am sure you all have.

My interest was piqued by two items on this page
The title Quiddity - - - which I had to look up, and is best represented by the word "Essence"
The Dog Star - - - or Sirius - - - we are just into "the Dog Days" which stretch from July 3rd to Aug 11th .

Ginny mentioned that there is no introduction, and we are being thrown into the book to sink or swim,
but it's my concept that the first three pages are intended to be the door which we have to open first.

This is going to be FUN! - - - I've never read a book before without having to THINK about every word I read.

Brian.

I arrived here at 6:59 a.m., read the postings, and tried to narrow my word choice. Ginny, having read the first page last night, my 'word list' is a duplicate of yours, plus GIBBET and (fantastically) CAPARISONED, but chose SAPPER as my "one thing."

My M-W 1994 Collegiate says: n (1626) 1: a military specialist in field fortification work (as sapping) 2: a military demolitions specialist

Well, after looking up several word meanings, making notes, looking at my Wikipedia map-source, and re-reading the first page for context based on my recent'enlightenment' I had to re-heat my A.M. coffee, as over an hour had passed since I initially zapped it!

A 'bonus' to all this is re-discovering a few of the delicious 'extras' in the Preface Section of my M-WD. AIN'T LEARNIN' GRAND!!! (It's also time to replace my 11-year-old dictionary...)

Ginny, I don't think I could handle more than a page-a-day, what with all the 'looking up stuff' and online research needed to fill in the gaps in my political, religious, and geographical history...

This is such fun! Thank you for all your input/suggestions.

http://thedon.cac.psu.edu/~saw/royal/r18.html#I757 :-

I love the bit about "the little gentleman in black velvet"

Brian.

Dutch people do not pronounce "J" properly so "tijn" would be said "tine".

I goggled the pronouncation of the name Constantijn and found this interesting article: Christiaan Huygens (pronounced in English (IPA): [ˈhaɪg ənz]; in Dutch: [ˈhœy γəns]) (April 14, 1629–July 8, 1695), was a Dutch mathematician and physicist; born in The Hague as the son of Constantijn Huygens. Historians commonly associate Huygens with the scientific revolution.

Yes the Netherlands was very important in World History. I think this link will explain it all very well. The Netherlands in World History There are many links to follow in that article and I am sure it will explain this better than I can.

Does anyone else have to scroll across in this discussion? I do and I wonder why. Fit Window does not work here.

Joan Grimes

Hold the phone!!

The mathematician Huygens was BORN in 1629. Our guy is someone else! Back when I track him down.

WHICH HUYGENS?

Here he is, Christian Huygens' father:

THIS HUYGENS

I love studying something thoroughly, and if we keep true to our promise of studying just one page and not going off on a tangent (easy to do with the internet!) this is going to be great fun. I do think we need someone to summarize the essence (the quiddity, LOL?) of the page, though.

I like to know where things are, so I looked up Hertogenbosh and found out that it is derived from Des hertogen bosch, Dutch for "the duke's woods". It is 80 km South of Amsterdam in the Nevertherlands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'s-Hertogenbosch

Apparently we are in a fight by the Prince of Orange Frederik Hendrik for rule over this town, which is the capital of the province of N. Brabant. If Henrik wins this battle, the town will be for the first time in Protestant hands.

Shama describes the battle as if it were first a parade, but then he says it is not nearly as organized as a parade. People running here and there, chaos everywehre.

We've still got Scipio, caparisoned, mountebanks, cuirassiers, harquebusiers, and gibblet to define. It's nearly 10 PM on the east coast - I'm going to define them for myself. If no one defines them on here tonight I'll post what I learn tomorrow. I really want us to absorb each page thoroughly!!

A cuirass is a piece of armor covering the body from neck to waist, and a harquebus was a matchlock gun, portable but heavy, usually fired from a support. Seems to me if you were wearing a cuirass and carrying a harquebus you might be too weighted down to move.

Oh my there is so much on this first page and like it or not it appeared Google was a companion for awhile...

The page seemed to be written tongue in cheek which said to me there was something other than straight forward history going on here - And then when I saw the word "mountebanks" among the descriptions I knew for sure something was a foot...

Evidently William the Silent, father of Frederik spread propaganda on leaflets and so that explained the mountebanks. This site has a good explainationa and graphic of a mountebank need to scroll a bit to get to him...

"a great masque" ~~ "The masque developed from the early 16th-century disguising, or mummery, in which disguised guests bearing presents would break into a festival and then join with their hosts in a ceremonial dance. As the form evolved, the important elements retained were the use of the mask and the mingling of actors and spectators. Reaching its height in the early 17th cent., the masque became a magnificent and colorful spectacle, presented in public theaters and, with more splendor, in the royal courts. The actors personified pastoral and mythological figures, with great emphasis placed on music and dance."

That word tells me this is the flowery wording of a humanist and poet such as Constantijn Huygens, who wrote verse in seven languages as well as in Dutch. -- He is often considered part of what is known as the Muiderkring, a group of leading intellectuals that regularly met at the castle of Muiden near Amsterdam. During this Golden Age of the Dutch Republic, the Muiderkring was the name given to a group of figures in the arts and sciences - The central figure was the poet Hooft; Constantijn Huygens, Sweelinck, Vondel and Bredero were part of the group.

I had no idea what a sapper is or was - seems we still have sappers in the US army - the engineers and those who lay land mines are called sappers - in the Middle Ages during a siege a tunnel dug under the walls of a castle. Once under the walls, sappers would build wooden structures to hold up the tunnel that they had made. The tunnel would then be filled with flammable material and set on fire. Later, explosives were used for greater effect. If the sapping was done well the wall above it would fall down creating an entrance for the attacking army.

In another site it described sappers during the civil war as building wooden fortifications in trenches and during one of Britain's wars in the eighteenth century there was an art print of sappers tearing down the pointed pilings that had been the fortifications of a trench so the soldiers could get over onto the hill to hand fight the enemy.

OH yes this is actually a painting from 100 years earlier but I get the impression this is the kind of scene Hygens was trying to word paint - which would be like a cartoon of reality or like a Bakhtin carnival, evading the fears of life by celebrating the "cheerful death" of a soldier. military art

Then a few other words I thought I knew but wasn't sure - well good thing I looked them up - actually cuirassiers describes the armor - here is a cuirassier on horseback wearing his lion skin and a Drummer on horseback and a polish prince some 25 years later in another war holding his banner

No paper dolphins or dragons, nor garlanded oxen or an occasional camel - I think all said for affectation.

Now this harquebusier really had me going - first it seemed like it described a helmet but finally it several sites agree it is a gun that is referred to with several names. Here it is and among its names it is called a arquebus explained here as either a Arquebus (sometimes spelled harquebus or hackbut)

Now the English have helmits called Harquebusiers

But then our featured artist Rembrandt had a painting called Nightwatch of a member of the Amsterdam "Kloveniersdoelen" (civic militia company of Harquebusiers)

All this is happening in mid summer - the Dog Star is Sirius which is in the constellation Canis Major. In ancient Greek the dawn rising of Sirius marked the hottest part of summer. Thus the origin of the phrase "dog days of summer."

Here is the low down on Frederik Hendrik, the PRINCE of Orange - Frederick Henry the son of William the Silent...William I of Orange the father this is a goodly amount of information that if you keep scrolling and reading all the background for this battle is described and what is going on from the Dutch viewpoint - it appears the son is actually splintering off from Catholic Netherlands.

I wonder why the book starts with all this - from everything I read where this town hosts major artists and poets, no where do I see Rembrandt's name associated with 's Hertogenbosch.

I am assuming Alexander is Alexander the great and evidently Scipio is a long line of an ancient Roman family and one of the Scipio's was sent to Spain (218) to destroy the supply lines of Hannibal, who was invading Italy.

And then there was a Metellus Pius Scipio, who died in 46 B.C. He was a leader of the senatorial conservatives and in 52, after he became a colleague of Pompey he threw all his influence against Julius Caesar. He backed a senate measure that was supposed to take the army from Caesar. Then he became governor of Syria. He commanded the center at Pharsalus and fled after the battle to Africa. He fought Caesar and lost at Thapsus and took to the sea to escape. One of Caesar's lieutenants finds him - foreseeing capture he stabbed himself.

mountebanks = from the spanish "monta banco" charlatans or fake medics with useless medicines
who get up on benches to push their wares.

caparisoned = with ornamental covering for horses.

Brian

I am going to have to read more than one page a day. If one reads on then one finds out more about what is going on here.

here is a link that is very good for general background material on the time period. Northern Renaissance

Joan Grimes

I'm interested in the art, artists technique and will only look up some of those strange (to me anyway) words as I care to.
I admit that I've read about 45 pages....hoping to get to painting talk.

gorget - a hinged collar-piece, covering the base of the neck, collarbone, and upper back, and it looked good lying below a wound silken stock or scarf; a touch of steel lest he be thought too much the dandy. This was social armor, military chic, not unlike the studiously worn fatigues affected by twentieth-century politicians gone sedentary, or the flak jackets of the urban paratrooper. Rembrandt's gorget with its glinting studs gave him the bearing of a soldier without the obligations.

Emma

Hi Emma Barb,

My purpose is the same as yours. I always read ahead anyway. However with this one I am not sure that my first page included all that was mentioned here to start with. So I sure want to be sure that I have read all that anyone has before making anymore comments. Like you I always look up what I think I need to know as I go along.

Ginny you said, "Art as a document to record heroic deeds or acts? Is THIS concept strange to you? "

No it is not a strange concept to me as I have studied paintings that were just that. I study the paintings that I talk about on the museum tours that I give and I have studied quite a few from that concept.

Joan Grimes

Interesting Joan about the Caraval - does that mean that there was no long distance shipping - now wait we know there was the Vikings but they did have oars didn't they - or maybe not - hmmmm I do not know - now the ships of the Mediterranean all had oars as well as sails didn't they - I guess the Caraval was the first oarless sailing ship...

Well it is a good think I scrolled back on this conversation - between the time I started to gather my thoughts and information and the time when I actually posted it several other posts were added - sheesh we now have enough information to start an annotation for this book - which I think is what we are saying it needed...

Well a bright good morning and page 2 to you today!

I am so excited by YOUR excitement and Scamper, you're Elected Summarizer du Jour if you want the job !! You get on later than I do and you will know what we have not covered that we can add on the next day!

I think we can ALL see here the necessity of our whole group's input in this one! Just look at all the fascinating things you have brought forward.

Let's face it, if we don't know what he's talking about, how can we read?

Do you read like that? I do. Why skip over something and say yeah yeah to get to the meat, he's put that here for a reason, what a joy to be able to explore it with you.

Like some of you I really love the close look, the detailed look, but that's because that's the way I personally read, when I see something I don't know, I feel I need to conquer it, so thank all of you for all those points.

Joan G, you are familiar with art as a record, I suddenly remembered Carpaccio and all of the religious paintings which served to tell the faithful who could not read the stories they needed to know, like the Martyrdom of St. Ursula. Ursula's Cycle is all over where I went this year, saw no end of reproductions of it, she must have been quite a famous and powerful saint in her time.

But Scipio? What do we know of representative art about Scipio? How blithely he throws out these names? Is he talking about Scipio Africanus, or another Scipio of antiquity, there were several, as Barbara mentions? Which one, it's like the Princes of Orange, which ONE is he talking about and which depiction is he talking about, who did it? Which period, as Barbara has pointed out. What… oh there is a painting of Scipio and the sword but it's not ancient, do any of you know it? Is Schama assuming knowledge here on our parts of art??

Stigler, an excellent question from Joan G's link, about William of Orange removing the "tyranny of the games," I have no idea what that means but isn't that a super title for a book? Let's write one.

I do feel I have fallen thru the Looking Glass, more….

Brian, I love your enthusiasm, thank you for that Quiddity, I have been obsessed with it ever since you wrote, "Essence." I looked it up:

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural –ties
Etymology: Middle English quidite, from Medieval Latin quidditat-, quidditas essence, from Latin quid what, neuter of quis who

Quid in Latin means "what," so that quiddity actually apparently means in our modern slang, "what it IS." I love that. Have never seen or heard of the word in my life, is it new to you, all, also?

Zelda, thank you for Sapper, another term I have never heard of, why do we think this author has used such exotic terms!?! It sounds like YOU have thoroughly done your homework, I find this a rich feast, indeed, and so different from ordinary reading.

As EmmaBarb and Joan G have noted, of course you can read ahead, but our premise here is to discuss one page each day, I'm like Joan G I need to be sure I've covered everything, I am excited about how we've done so far tho we're ALREADY behind with the terms!!!! (What DO we lack on page 1?) Imagine how it would be if we took ¼ of the book as we usually do!! I have a feeling that it would go back on the shelf, I hope to avoid that, if possible, this time.

I am so glad so many of you find this FUN, this is a rare treat for me, just read another good book, 2001, in one day the other day, that was also a good experience but this book is different, I think.

Dottie, thank you for that tine pronunciation, I love Dutch spelling, was quite taken with it in Amsterdam.

Now that we have our Oranges and our Huygens straight (and we see in today's passage who he was) what do you all think of this method of introduction?

Do you agree with Brian this IS the prologue?

Joan G I am not scrolling in this discussion, is that still happening for you??!!??

Thank you for that Netherlands history, and Brian for William of Orange, I took one look at the Netherlands one and saw West India Company and printed that one out too, all I know is the British East India company, what an education as Zelda says, this IS!!

Thank you Joan K for tracking down the right Huygens, wonder why Schama does not say?

Thank you Scamper for the "duke's woods" in Hergogenbosh, so that, would you say "'s" is for Dukes? Is that part of the….understanding?

Brabant? Where have we heart THAT before is there a Duke of Brabant? That seems eerily familiar to me.

OH so you saw the description of the battle as the parade or masque? Oh wow, I did not see that?

Pat thank you for the cuirass and harquebus, I agree that it sounds quite heavy. As you know the knights in armor were so heavy they had to be lifted by cranes to the back of their horses, sounds like some serious weight problems here!

Barbara, oh so you're seeing tongue in cheek! I can't make out WHAT this is, except definitely Through the Looking Glass, so it was montebanks that set that off. Hmmm. Quite a difference in war and your parallel to the "masque," thank you for that definition. AH and for the insight that we're seeing this through the eyes of Huygens??

I did not know also the US Army has "sappers!"

Thank you for that link to the depiction of battle, also, Barbara and those descriptions!

Good points!

Thank you Joan Grimes, another excellent link to the Northern Renaissance, need to study THAT one also. Does anybody know when Caxton invented the printing press? That brought not a sudden but an end to the hand done illuminated manuscript, this must have been a fascinating time to live in!

Emmabarb, you would expect painting talk in a book on Rembrandt, wouldn't you? I am wondering as I read why there has been none, so far. Why do you think?

Thank you for gorget, fascinating!!

And NOW we come to the second page, aka page 4, for those of you who want the actual numbers, page 2 coming right up, hold on ….have just spilled Diet Coke on the entire keyboard and desk.

All right, Second Page, and immediately I spy another footnote, footnote 2. I hate footnotes and I especially hate to pass over one, so off I go to look IT up and voila! What? I'm only seeing bibliography, not explanations tho I suddenly notice Author's Note preceding the Footnotes area, should we be reading THAT now? It's on page 705 of the paperback?

OK so we have the junior secretary modestly (but proud of) deciphering code, a mention of Leiden University and such a careful description of the way his poems in all those languages LOOKED that I have a feeling a picture exists somewhere about them, is there one?

So why are we spending time in HIS head?

128,077 men in the 16th year of the war of the Netherlands! Teams of 30-40 horses. What appears to be mercenaries, is that what you made of the Troopers in the ale houses?

Ok here we have an explanation of the war and the introduction of the Hapsburgs and Archduchess Isabella in Brussels, does anybody want to give a summary of HER? Never heard of her or is she related to "Ferdinand and Isabella" of Spain? I see HER nephew is Philip IV of Spain.

Is anybody able to make heads or tails out of this?

Good heavens, on the flooding and the portable windmills! Aren't they clever, tho? One thing they harped on while I was in the Netherlands this spring is the polders. The entire Amsterdam is below sea level and it's only the polders, dams, which hold it back, and they have THE most impressive systems of water pumping. One of our Latin 101 students who was from the Netherlands told us all the Romans invented the polders, not the Dutch!

What effect does it have for you to read, "Some effort would be made to scrape at least one layer of the caked brown and yellow grime from the surgeon's tables?"

And as we enter page 3, we have more of the "masque-" hangers on to the army, a "great fairground without"….oops on to the third page….pies." So this…who IS the Narrator? IS likening this entire war to a Grand Masque. All the world's a stage, right?

Now this is a slow page, so it gives us lots of time to get the historical perspective in order, to find examples of Huygen's work, to find the famous Scipio painting or/ and discover if there is any more art out there, possibly Roman, about HIM (which ever one HE was), to find out the historical event and to figure out WHY he's started a book on Rembrandt this way! We may have to take 2 pages at once, but since I'm behind reading one I'm thinking we need to plow on for a bit with just the one?

So far, what do you think here about the swirling images the author is using with his pen and his method of introduction to the artist Rembrandt?

this may be yesterday's news but the inclusion of Scipio still holds my curiosity - and Ginny when you mentioned painting I just had to look and see what I could find - more confusion - who is Schama talking about --

we have Continence of Scipio

Bellini's Continence of Scipio

aha we have Hannibal fighting Scipio aha this is the site - scroll there are several paintings of Scipio with this little tidbit -- "From the Renaissance onwards The Continence of Scipio was an extremely popular subject in European art. During the Second Punic War (218-201 BC), the Roman military commander Publius Cornelius Scipio (c. 235-183 BC) took the city of New Carthage in Spain. "

OHhhhh so this is Scipio - I've seen this bust many times haven't ya'll - Acipio-Africanus well the family tree is all there for us -

Ah so now the inclusion of Scipio makes sense - this guy fought Hannibal and to Europe that must have been huge...

Wasn't it Hannibal that was banging on the doors of Rome so to speak...?

Leiden University founded in 1575

Huh Schwytzertütsch is Swiss Yiddish well we knew that Jews were an important part of life in the Netherlands.

What a mess - looks like water was used to flood the battle field and Frederik had English engineers to drain the field but how about that discription of scraping the grime from the surgeons' table. sheesh...AND for 60 years this nonsense is going on - that is at least a lifetime for many -

Here are some helpful links:

King Philip IV of Spain

United Provinces of the Netherlands

With this link, I found we are reading about the Eighty Years War for the independence of the Netherlands.

Regarding the grime on surgeons' operating tables, the concept of germs causing wounds to putrify was not known. Early 17th century surgeons did pour spirits -- drinkable alcohol -- into wounds before sewing them up, but that was empirical; they did not know why it helped the wounds to heal. Doctors would go from patient to patient without washing their hands or instruments. Incidently, that was part of the reason childbirth was less risky at home, with midwives, than in clinics.

Ginny I know we agreed to a page a day - but I am not seeing the relevance all this has to Rembrandt - would you consider doing just a couple of pages a day till we get to page 12 - which it appears that is when we really start reading about Rembrandt - that way by the weekend we can be reading what we all have indicated was our interest...?

Thank you for all the links to Scipio, Barbara, what a neat thing and thank you Mippy, for that about surgery, ugg ugg, it's really a miracle anybody lived, and for that link as well, the 80 years war!

I dunno, what do you all think about more than a page a day? I say we need to give this a week, at least, at one page per day. We CAME to read about Rembrandt but we SAW that Schama is not writing about Rembrandt here in the beginning pages but if you look where he does begin, you'll see he's alluding to these first pages. Will he CONQUER us or will we conquer him? hahaha WE did not write the book, Schama did, so we need to understand what and why he's saying, that's what I think, what do the rest of you thinik??!!??

Oh on Hannibal? Hannibal inexplicably went all around Rome and never banged on the door, nobody knows why!

I think I will be fine as soon as I figure out what all this has to do with Rembrandt - I may cheat and read ahead because this is confusing the heck out of me...

I'm for the "One Page per Day", and I think we will get there more quickly when we realize that one cannot see the people in a room until they open they door to let us into the house. Even a peek through the front window does not necessarily tell you all you will find when you are allowed to enter. I would reiterate, the first few pages are the equivalent of "It was a dark and stormy night - - -" let's be patient, we can look ahead to get an inkling of the treasures in store. If all you want is the meat on Rembrandt's (or Rubens's) plate, there are other, and more direct ways to satisfy your hunger.

Brian.

I have been reading everything but am still confused by all the men called William. Is William of Orange the same person as Prince William? Then there is William III and finally Silent William.

Maybe I'm googling too much! And is the war they are fighting to keep Catholism out of England?

Somebody has to summarize this for me, it ain't clicking. Dottie

Silent William is William the first -

He married Anna van Egmond en Buren, the wealthy heir to the lands of her father, and William earned the titles Lord of Egmond and Count of Buren. They had three children: Maria (1553 – 1554), Philip-William (1554 – 1618) and Maria (1556 – 1616).

Then he had an affair and had an illegitimate child, Justines.

William of Orange married for the second time. - Anna of Saxony-Meissen. The couple had five children: Anna (1562), Anna (1563 – 1588), Maurice August Philip (1564 – 1566), Maurice (1567 – 1625) and Emily (1569 – 1629).

A third marriage - He had his previous marriage legally disbanded on claims of insanity of his wife Anna. Charlotte de Bourbon-Monpensier, a former French nun, was also popular with the public. Together, they had six daughters: Louise Juliana (1576 – 1644), Elisabeth (1577 – 1642), Catherina Belgica (1578 – 1648), Charlotte Flandrina (1579 – 1640), Charlotte Brabantia (1580 – 1631) and Emilia Antwerpiana (1581 – 1657).

William had married for the fourth and final time to Louise de Colligny, a French Huguenot and daughter of Gaspard de Coligny. She would be the mother of Frederick Henry (1584 – 1647), Williams fourth legitimate son.

After support and rising in power by Phillip and the Spanish monarchy Phillip II declared William an outlaw and promised Gérard he could travel to the Netherlands and kill him. Later Gerard does just that...

William's son Maurice succeeded him after his assassination. The title and position passed down first to his son Philip (who was catholic and was imprisoned for a long time), then to second son Maurice - then Maurice passed it to his half-brother (William's youngest son, born 6 months after William the Silent was murdered), Frederick Hendrik, or Frederick Henry, who continued the battle against the Spanish.

Upon the death of Maurice, Frederick Henry succeeded him in his paternal dignities and estates, and also in the stadtholderates. Frederick Henry was married to Amalia von Solms, and left one son, William II of Orange, and four daughters.

The son of Frederick Henry, William II of Orange succeeded his father as stadtholder, as did his William II's son, William III of Orange - William III died childless.

William is better known as William I of Orange-Nassau; the House of Orange-Nassau starts with him.
Philip William (son of William I from 1st marriage, not a stadtholder) (1584-1618)
Maurice (son of William I from 2nd marriage), stadtholder, (1618-1625)
Frederick Henry (son of William I from 4th marriage), stadtholder, (1625-1647)
Willem II (1647-1650), stadtholder
Willem III of Orange (1650-1702), stadtholder, and from 1688 King of England and Scotland
John William Friso (descendant in male line of William the Silent's brother, and in female line also of William the Silent himself) (1702-1711), stadtholder of Friesland

So it looks like we are dealing with William II, who, if I understand correctly, is trying to keep The Netherlands Protestant, and from being captured by the Catholic Philip II of Spain. This struggle between the Catholics and the Protestants is one of the main themes of the book. For those of you who want to get to painting, later, he will do a comparison between how the differences in religion produced differences in the art of Catholic and Protestant countries.

Now we know more about Hugens. One site says he is often considered the last of the Renaissance men. Here he is a secretary to William, but he was also a poet and wrote a poem about the relationship between himself (a Protestant) and a Catholic friend:

FRIENDLY DISAGREEMENT

in which he says:

 
we've common ground enough to praise God hand-in-hand. 
Although we may not of two faiths a mixture make, 
we both at least seek Heaven, though diff'rent roads we take:

I don't know if he wrote this during the battle -- I doubt it.

Joan if it is 1629 then we would have to be dealing with Frederik Henry rather than his son who would be William II

I have never met the word disbanded before, and l looked it up in Merriam-Webster - - -
(I have the M-W bar up on my Internet Explorer, and can highlight words I don't recognize)

disband - from the French word "desbander" to dissolve - - -

Being originally from the U.K., I would have recognized annulled from the Latin "annulare" to reduce to nothing - - -

Henry VIIIth was good at this!

Who says that studying the book page by page isn't FUN!!

Brian

Ginny,

You asked about Isabella. I think she is Isabella of Spain. Read this link to see the connection with Spain Spanish Netherlands. Scroll down the page on that link.

Basically this is a fight for protestantism in the Netherlands. Spain and the Hapsburgs are Catholic. Here is a good link about Northern Reformation, etc. That link gives lots of good links.

I guess you can see I love this. The history is wonderful to me. I am interested in finding out how Rembrandt fits in all this. It really is necessary to know something about the history and fit the artist into to get into the art history. The art records the history for us.

Ginny you mentioned stories told by the art. Yes early art in churches told the Bible stories. People could not read. They could read the paintings though. They learned to recognize symbols and attributes that identified who was in the painting. They could then read the painting. We still do that today to read a painting although we can read what someone says about the painting and what story it is telling. It is such fun to be able to look at a painting and figure out what story it is telling. It is similar to the experience we are having here with each page of this book.

Sorry I am so late getting here today. My electricity went off. It was off from 4:30 this afternoon until 8:00 tonight. It was not a good experience for me.

Oh about the scrolling. Yes I have to scroll. The heading goes off the right side and always has. Also the posts go off the right side for me.

Joan Grimes

My guess is that this is not a Yiddish dialect, but simply what is now called Schweitzerdeutch. It is Swiss, and is just German, with different pronunciation and some special tricks. If you think you can talk German, you had better be humble in trying to understand it, because it isn't that easy. I think the Alsatian Germanic dialect is similar, but since I couldn't really understand either, I am going by sound.

I like the one-page-a-day method. I see that it lets me reread the previous day's page after I have absorbed and digested all your explanations and definitions and informed guesses and links. On this second reading the ideas on the page leap right out to me with great clarity and speed.

Thank you for all the feedback on the One Page Per Day, let's try to keep on just a bit then, if we can.

Thank you all for the background too, and Joan G, I'll report the scrolling, thanks.

Pat, "Schweitzerdeutch?" Interesting. I took a course in Conversational German once and we had a Swiss lady there. Although she was the only one who COULD answer the questions, the Instructor (I dropped the course) was constantly critical of her German, even laughed at it, maybe that's the reason? At any rate, she was a very poor teacher. I don't mind going around the circle with demands to perform if it has been explained before hand, or we've had a night or two to work on it, but it wasn't and we hadn't. Bad teaching, it takes more than somebody who can speak the language to teach it, I learned.

Ok typing this between lightning bolts, this one will be quick, I apologize and will return when the remnants of Claire or whatever it's called pass, we have a huge mass moving toward us.

Duchess de Brabant! I finally thought of the name, it's an old rose and gorgeous, I did not know what Brabant WAS~! And that is an OLD rose, I'll look it up when I have 5 minutes between bolts hahaha

And I'm still confused. Now we're NOT talking about William at all, are we? Any of the Williams? Thank you all for that background, so we're talking about Protestants and Catholics, an 80 year war, a siege of a cathedral, is that right? Or? By Prince Hendrick of Orange, not William.

Hendrik's wanting to take it back from the 2,000 people holding it for the Hapsburg Isabella (aka of Spain), is she Catholic?

Who are the Catholics here? Prince Hendrik's ancestors are from Brabant, where there IS a cathedral, so somebody at some time was Catholic, and now a huge army of Italians, Germans, Spanish, 10,000 have invaded the eastern frontier, will Hendrik break off this siege of the cathedral and run over there? That's one way the Romans got scattered. (Did you love his wife having a poem written for him a la Ovid?)

"Though he was no Calvinist fanatic, Hendirk still believed it proper that the Cathedral of St. John be cleansed of Catholic idolatry." (page 5).

OK….something is askew here. A Cathedral is the seat of a Bishop, right? So somewhere there had to be Catholics, originally, when did they depart? Did Henry VIII's Anglicans get this far?

Who can explain this? What are fanatic Calvinists?

What we need is a one or two line explanation, now that we've had links, can somebody summarize it?

Again, "It was meant to demonstrate conclusively to the Spanish Habsburgs that they had no choice but to accept, unconditionally, the sovereignty and liberty of the Protestant Republic of the United Netherlands."

Ok again, why do they need to demonstrate this? Can somebody just SAY? My time is limited between lightning bolts here and my ISP is quite slow.

What's a coney? Don't you love he explains konijnen with the word coney? Does this have any connection with Coney Island? Hahahaa

What's a sutler?

What's a tapster?

Did you notice he has more hangers-on than soldiers?

I loved the "train," of hangers-on, that must be where he began to consider this a parade or "masque?" Or?

And so section "i" ends, the Quiddity (What it IS or Essence) marches on, Schama wants us to know what it IS, do we?

Our next page begins with THE MAN, it will be interesting to see where he fits into all of this. But I notice that our Huygens and the background reappear relentlessly so it's important that we understand what is going on, "the Essence," and possibly how it may influence Rembrandt himself. But DO we understand what is going ON?

I'm not sure I do, actually, even now?

What are YOUR thoughts here this morning? See you when the storms pass, hopefully later today, if not, if the phones get struck out again like they did the last time, and you don't see me in the morning, do carry on with the next page!!!

Would you choose to be a sutler?
It's not as bad as it sounds!
On line there are sutlers selling their products for Civil War reinactments.
Mr. Levi of Levis jeans fame was almost one.

Sutler

Yes, that is how I see it so far, having read (and re-read) the first 3 pgs. (#3-5 to be accurate), I consider Professor Schama's scholarship and vivid, visual prose a rare gift to us, his Readers. (We've earned that 'capital "R"' based on the amount of earnest research and personal knowledge shared since we began this 'joint venture' on Tuesday, tee hee...)

I find myself caught up in his tantalizing word choices/phrases; immersed in an earlier time and place that is both inviting and repugnant. The later brought on by his depictions of the realities of the battlefield--the "carnage of war" including the filthy, bloody,trestles upon which limbs are "hacked off" by the physicians.

I was shocked to learn that the 'hangers-on' persons actually outnumbered the soldiers, and that this shabby group included a percentage of WIVES! How often did they even catch a glimpse of their husband, let alone get close enought to have a conversation??? Those dear, brave, naive, and desperate women! Their marraige vows never prepared them for this event...

And how does Schama write of this encampment-- as a "great fairground without pies;..." What a simple, yet ironic, summary of that mobs location.

I think the professor has been quietly setting the stage for us so that we may--even on a small scale--have an overview of the time in which Rembrandt was creating his art. I expect we will gradually learn how this particular war, along with the political and religious landscapes of this period, had their direct affect on Rembrandt--and, perhaps Vermeer and Rubens ("the Catholic painter from Antwerp") as well...

And here's my dime's worth on STICKING WITH A-PAGE-A-DAY: I would expect that most of us who grab at spare moments to scramble across the internet, seeking further background and/or answers to our questions and general curiosity, appreciate having just a single page to respond to each day. Maybe 'down the road' there will be a good reason to escalate our pace.

I chose description #4 in my M-WD: 'impressive to the mind or spirit'-- I find 'tis that and more...

Toodles all, Z.

GINNY and all:

I had never heard of polders until my recent stay at the Hillcrest Convalescent Center in Durham, NC. There I found in the little library a book called Cannibals and Missionaries by Mary McCarthy. In it she describes a very unusual use for a polder.

"1979 Cannibals and Missionaries. In one of the first novels to treat modern terrorism, McCarthy depicts a group of prominent liberals and art collectors who fly to Iran and become hostages of the PLO."

* Actually, this "committee" never makes it to Iran. Their hijack captors fly them to a polder in the Netherlands instead.

Mal

tapster = "a person who draws ans serves alcholic drinks at a bar" from the concise Oxford Dictionary, or " Bartender" from M-W Dictionary.

Possibly a sutler whose speciality is ale?

Brian.

Googled "Calvinism in Holland" and found this paragraph which might explain what a fanatic Calvinist is:

Let us remember further that practically all of the martyrs in these various countries were Calvinists,- the Lutheran, s and Arminians being only a handful in comparison. As Professor Fruin justly remarks, "In Switzerland, in France, in the Netherlands, in Scotland and in England, and wherever Protestantism has had to establish itself at the point of the sword, it was Calvinism that gained the day." However the fact is to be explained it is true that the Calvinists were the only fighting Protestants

When I was a kid a tapster was the one who had the skill and knowledge of how to tap a barrel of beer - putting the tap in was not just a simple thing - there was no precut hole and a tap was also made of wood so that the tapster was capable of whittling a tap - my grandfather and his brothers delivered barrels of beer by horse and wagon and my father coming from this family history knew how to tap a barrel and was called upon even if we visited a restaurant or beer garten the proprietor asked him to tap the barrel - seems if you knew how to do this well you not only lost the least amount of beer but it did not unsettle the beer so that the first few drafts were not all foam.

From everything I have read it seems that where Luther started the reformation he was not an organization man - he started a movement - it was the Calvinists that established the church as a counter organization to the Catholic organization.

The more I read of this time, I think we today put more emphasis on the war between religions as if the way we worship and understand the Bible was at stake - seems to me it was a case of individualism rearing its head and therefore, political issues were more at stake than religious issues - since the church was the political expression of all governments the concept of individualism [each person able to read and interpret the Bible for themselves was the way it could be defined but also each person was responsible for their own salvation] this philosophy extended to all power and so heads of state saw themselves as equally powerful to the Pope - and since this individual power was expressed in the Protestant religions and [sounds like there was an old lady who swallowed a fly] religion was the basis of all thought, it became a war in which the banner of a certain religion was the rallying point.

This war was not just about the Netherlands becoming Protestant or not - it was as much about the Netherlands becoming a separate nation independent of Spain. Reminds me of the Texas Revolution in that Mexico treated the area of Texas like a step child - it was there and they took it for granted without taking any interest in the area much less offering the area and its people any administrative support. Well this is the situation between Spain and the Netherlands. Spain simply wanted the wealth through taxes from the Netherlands. We also I think forget what a powerhouse Spain had been during this time in history - it was "THE" power of the western world - look at all the explorers it sent from its shores.

And now various circumstances allowed the Netherlands to become a power in the western world and the leaders wanted to be in control of this power furthering their own interests as well as making choices to further the interests that nationalism and the confluence of their entrepreneurial skills that lead to wealth provided. They did not want their wealth in the form of taxes to go back to Spain.

From everything I read this war was about the Dutch seeing Spain as an exploitive ruling power - it was about power of their own wealth - only later did the issue of religion enter the picture - Spain sent forces to re-establish their rule - the Spanish sumptuary was ridiculed as the extension of the wealth and power of the Catholic Church. The Dutch were afraid of the inquisition and also saw Calvinistic values matching their lifestyle which centered around the hard work of ship building.

It was Spain - Phillip [a line of Phillips] who wanted Brussels to be the center of their control and where the taxes were accounted for and so there was the war with Brussels as well - while all this is going on we have James only having put together his translation of the Bible a few years before and now Charles is on the throne who was trying to take England back to the Catholic Church by disbanding Parliament - seems that during this time in history the western world was going through huge changes from top down leadership with the top being the Pope towards individual power that had to be wrestled from the Pope and those who backed that system.

Which says to me individualism was in the air and where personal responsibility and empowerment may not have been the privilege of "everyman" however, artists are some of the first to react to change in society. We still have painters and musicians only able to work because of patronage from Courts but we are at the beginning of individual artists who are no longer required to only paint what the court or the church will sponsor and therefore as patron, must approve.

(page 5) the siege began in earnest
but looking up the "coneys, who borrowed under the defenses" leads to
references to "Coney Island" -- not our 17th century fellows;
however, siege gets some links at the heart of the matter.
In second link, you can click on "circumvallation", one of many techniques used by Caesar.

Siege Terms

Siege Warfare

Mippy I believe a Coney is a Rabbit catcher - I remember seeing something about how Rabbits kept early man alive rather than the taking down of huge mammals as most historians would have us believe - but nets were found in many digs along with the bones etc. of Rabbits and I remember the men who caught Rabbits were called Coney's in fact I think Coney Catchers.

aha I knew if I looked enough - here it is among Occupations of Old

Pikemen were soldiers who fought with a pike which was a combination of and axe and a spear about 5 feet long. They jabbed at Cuirassiers, who were soldiers who wore full armour.

At last a picture of a young Rembrandt, age 23. A young man who like to dress as a soldier, "without the obligations" of being a soldier.

He also wore a bit of steel so as not to be thought a "dandy." My dictionary says a dandy is someone who affects exaggerated elegance. I always thought dandy meant effeminate.

I sorry I may have missed how we are handling the weekends. Are we continuing to read a page a day for Saturday and Sunday?

Dottie

huh I didn't know but the modern pencil was invented in Northern England in 1564 and so 1629 is only 65 years later - which says to me that Rembrandt could have sketched as well as painted and that may be the basis for his painting style - Today I am looking at the art included in the book and thinking of the art work itself and what it meant to be an artist during this time in history.

And where we are speaking of the Northern Renaissance in the field of Art this period was known as Baroque - this is a great site explaining The Baroque style which appeared in Europe earlier than 1629.

The site explains -- "The Baroque period was also a time of political and religious tension. Catholic authorities, alarmed by the Reformation, wanted a style of art to draw people back to the Catholic Church. They felt that art of the period should have only one aim: to glorify the Catholic religion and make Catholic beliefs more popular."

Also the use of oil base paint was not very old at this time in history - only about 100 years - before that Tempera or "egg tempera" made by mixing rocks ground to a pigments with egg yolks was used. Tempera dries quickly where as an oil base paint dries slowly therefore changes could be made and messing around to make the work look more realistic was now possible.

OK this is in 1881 what an artist would have to do in order to make the paint they use - this is about 250 AFTER Rembrandt - so imagine if you will the work that Rembrandt would have to engage in order to make his paint that he would mix with possibly walnut oil or linseed oil or whatever his oil medium - I will see if I can find out what he used - but this is startling - I clicked on the color ultramarine blue and was blown away but if you scroll the recipe for other colors are included Prepare Paint in 1881

BARBARA: two excellent posts. I agree with you that the wars of the period were about power and where it would reside, and they were played out over religion. At the level of ordinary people, however, the religious differences were taken very seriously, and led to an intolerance on both sides that seems unbelievable to us now. It is painful to us to relive that period, but perhaps good to remember how virulent intolerance of people with other beliefs can be.

It is great to analize and learn here. But this morning, faced with Scama's prose and Rembrandt's painting, all I want to say is:

WOW!

We are told about Rembrandt's foppish, affected dress. Yet look at that face. There is nothing foppish or affected about it. Why? I think it's because, of necessity, he painted himself in the act of painting, and he painted what he saw.

Another Portrait of Rembrandt painted in 1629

Well! Even with one page a day I've already fallen behind! Hahaha Where are the rest of you and are you also falling behind or what's happening?

I vote to continue thru the weekend, Dottie, so we can go forward, do you all agree? Not taking the weekend off, in our page a day. If we take every weekend off we'll all be 800 years old when we finish. haahaha

Joan G, this was beautiful and I meant to remark on it when I was in haste the other day:

Yes early art in churches told the Bible stories. People could not read. They could read the paintings though. They learned to recognize symbols and attributes that identified who was in the painting. They could then read the painting. We still do that today to read a painting although we can read what someone says about the painting and what story it is telling. It is such fun to be able to look at a painting and figure out what story it is telling.

Thank you for that!!

Elizabeth, so glad to see you here, I also am understanding this better, it's almost like living it, sort of.

Oh good job Mippy with the Sutler, my goodness what we're learning here, never heard of them!

You see Levis now every place on earth!

Zelda, I do like that characterization of…is he PROFESSOR ?!? Schama's "visual prose." Yes we have already learned the capital R and I have a feeling we'll earn a capital EADER before we're through! Hahahaa

Oh good point on the contrasts in his writing. Well now there you go,"Rubens, the Catholic painter from. Antwerp." I have a strange feeling we're going to understand that when we're through!

Great post! Thank you!

Malryn, welcome back! For heaven's sake, once you hear of a word like polder it's amazing how many times it turns up in other connotations, it was a first for me, too, this year.

Brian, now TAPSTER I can understand, taps of ale or something? I also have that Webster link on my browser and I just love it, so easy to look up any word instantly. OR hear it pronounced.

Dottie thank you for the only fighting Protestants: the Calvinist fanatics. What denomination would we say they were, I am not sure from reading that excerpt, is it saying they were Lutherans? Why do I always think they are Presbyterians?

Thank you Barbara for that about tapsters from your own experience and that précis of what really was happening in this war, appreciate that! I do feel despite only a few pages I do understand it a little better, do the rest of you?

Mippy thank you for those two excellent links and I love the illustration on the Seige one of the Turks besieging Constantinople! I don't know what kind of art that is called but I love it. It seems FLAT? I love FLAT art?

Barbara, my goodness on the Occupations of Old!! How interesting and you are right on rabbit, here's an interesting link on the history of the name Coney Island (they should have stuck with the Indian name!) from Wikipedia or however you spell it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coney_Island#The_Name)

The Name

There are a number of explanations for Coney's name, but the generally accepted source is from coney, an obsolete English word for rabbit, chosen because it was cognate with the Dutch name for the island, Coneyn Eilant ("Rabbit Island"). It has been called thus since the 1640s, appearing on early maps of Nieuw Amsterdam as such.

The Native American inhabitants of the area called the island Narrioch, "land without shadows", because, in common with other south shore Long Island beaches, its compass orientation keeps the beach area in sunlight all day. In common with other Long Island barrier islands, Coney Island was virtually overrun with rabbits, and rabbit hunting was common until resorts were developed and open space eliminated.

Dottie thank you for Pikemen and the full armor thing, I found that fascinating on our first page of Rembrandt himself, that he wore the top armor only (one can see why) , but I did not understand till now the reasons for half armor and full! I did not know that explanation of "dandy" either, somehow I associate it with fop, I am afraid now to look up FOP lest IT have a pejorative meaning! Hahahaa

But he LOOKS like a 13 year old boy, wouldn't you say?

Barbara, thank you for the paint information, I had no idea when I was looking AT it in person what I was looking AT it's amazing it's still there! It also looks like a LOT of trouble and then you look at that FACE on page 6 in the paperback. Wonder why it's half in shadow? Those of you who understand painting, is there a reason or will we get TO that?

I agree Joan K , WOW! That's something ELSE. Have any of you looked at it with a magnifying glass? It's incredible! Look at the bottom lip? Look at the collar on the left right above the steel?

WOW indeed, I agree.

Now how IS it that one person can take a… brush? And paint something alive like that?

Is this why he's considered so famous?

Barbara, who painted the portrait of Rembrandt you put up in a link?? It looks quite different?

Ok ollie ollie oxen free, let's hear from each of you on what you think of that self portrait on page 6.

If I had to say, I'd say this is a 13 year old boy. He's half in shadow. He looks…worried? Or determined? Or what do you make of that left eyebrow? The expression in the eye?

He has a bit of steel about him but I'm not sure if he's happy about it, what part of the painting (I hardly know WHAT to ask, if YOU do, please step up!) hahaah does YOUR eye linger on the most?

The strangest thing to ME is when you look at that with a magnifying glass the lips are smiling, I am not sure they are at arms length? That is an amazing thing, you can even see the edge of the steel color. Amazing.

What are YOUR own thoughts on our first exposure to a Rembrandt painting in the book?

The portrait, Barbara linked to, is a self-portrait painted in 1629.

Oil on panel, 15,5 x 12,5 cm

Alte Pinakothek, Munich

Ginny,

Thanks for your kind words. That is just what I say when I take people on tours in the Birmingham Museum of Art. In fact I have books about symbols and attributes used in the early religious paintings.

Also your question about Calvinists. No they are not Lutherans. They are followers of John Calvin. john Calvin was a French Theologian. The reason you think they are Presbyterians is because Presbyterians did come from Calvinists. However all Calvinists were not Presbyterians. Here is a link about this and it gives more links to read. Hope this will help with the understanding of Calvinism.

Joan Grimes

I was interested in the gold chains given to older Reubens while young Rembrandt painted one around his neck in one of his self-portraits.....Oops....more on this later

Perhaps we will be less likely to lose our place if we keep moving our bookmark.

My new understanding, gleaned from page 7, is that Rembrandt, although he was outwardly
affected by the outcome of the religious war between the Spanish Catholics and the Central and Eastern
Protestants under Prince William, cared less for the eventual resolution of the conflict than he did for
his desire to portray his "real self" wearing the steel gorget around his neck.

Already we are getting the feeling that this genius of a man was gifted in many ways, but was not
blessed with beauty of face, and was not desirous of misleading those who saw, (and bought), his work.

Brian

BRIAN: I feel that Rembrandt was always honest in painting what he saw, both in himself and others. It is a large part of the reason he died broke, unwilling to flatter customers. And also a part of the reason he's so good.

I don't know art like some of you, but I've never seen faces in paintings like Rembrandt's faces. After looking at some of them, I feel I know the person as well as I know my friend. Incredible.

GINNY: you're right about the smile. When I look at the painting, I see that mouth first. But even with a magnifying glass, I can't see the "lovelock". Where is it? Maybe my print is too dark.

Half armor.

Barbara Tuchman in "A Distant Mirror" about Europea little earlier, talks a lot about the armor. It was so hot and heavy, that in some battles, more soldiers died of heatstroke than of wounds. No wonder they started to wear half-armor.

I've lost track of where we are. I just read P. 9. Am I a page ahead?

a long lock of hair variously worn (as over the front of the shoulder) especially by men in the 17th and 18th centuries (from Merriam-Webster)

You don't need a magnifying glass for this, JoanK. - - - And by MY reckoning you are a wee bit ahead.

Brian

Rembrandt loved the use of light in his paintings as he pleased. The greatest detail and concentration of light (highlights) was where he wanted you to be attracted to first....your imagination supplies the missing detail in shadow.

Well, I AM slow - I was wondering why nobody was posting in the discussion because my subscription had not shown any postings. I didn't get the message that Ginny was moving us to another location. Oh, well - better late than never, I guess.

Now I'll have to do some book reading, and then get caught up with the discussion. I'll be back later.

I choose "Rembrandt the Actor" from this page.

Have you noticed that children, when they want to portray an emotion, often go overboard
in their attempt. Sadness brings tears, but is highlighted by screaming and wailing. Anger is
accentuated by stamping the feet. And so on - - -

Rembrandt gets his results in a much subtler way by using the power of suggestion. The "cool"
young man wears a collar of steel, but the effect is muted by a softly fringed silk scarf.
Rembrand wanted to act the part, and to be involved in the "action". Schama is an expert in
showing us what to look for, and explains why the artist has "painted himself into" so many of his works.

As usual, I am tempted to run on, and to run ahead, but I must restrain myself.

P.S. I am still having to scroll down the page get to the last posting. It has not been fixed yet?

Brian.

- - - Solved !

It was my error, and I've now set the page up correctly.

Brian.

Oh good, Brian, I was not seeing that, so I'm glad you solved that!

Great points, everybody and I am wondering today if perhaps the pagination is different in the different editions?

For instance page 7 in the paperback starts with the chapter title ii Leiden, 1629, and ends with the word beer?

Facing it on the page is the full portrait of Rembradt, half in shadow.

Now the first page in the paperback is page 3, so that was for the first day. Hahaahah (I already look idiotic but I shall persevere) and so when you add 6 days to that, the 5th being the first DAY, then we find ourselves today, (or do we?) in the big paperback I have, at least, on page 9?

Is that where YOU are? I was not? So let me catch up FAST.

First of all on page 8, the author starts out with the statement, "So it suited Rembrandt to get himself up as a military person."

I am wondering, idly, if you think Schama, with all his former description HAS proved that point? Or not?

But I loved Schama's own description of the persona concept and his startling explanation of the painting we are looking at!

He explains the shadows as "sabotaging the bravura, hinting at the vulnerability beneath the metal plate."

Do you agree with him?

Note how he talks about the lips and eyes and there being "a touch too much humanity here to carry off the show."

I would say I saw uncertainty and youth in it, but didn't know why, particularly. Now I have more knowledge, that's great.

What did you all see in it, those of you who have not said anything here, are you still with us?

I don't see the liefdelok, or love lock, either Brian, even with a magnifying glass. But note the bit about the Calvinists and what it means if he has one or not. This is why I guess Schama has gone into all this prior description and history, flamboyantly long hair being singled out as an especial "abomination in the sight of the Lord," Wow. That's pretty strong, and it's interesting what Rembrandt did about it, isn't it? Adds a whole new depth to it?

I also liked the way he portrayed himself in paintings as one of the characters, I like trying to find Botticelli who looks like a modern actor so is easy to spot, but I'm not sure I would spot Rembrandt, his face seems so different every time?

Now in today's section, part iii and page 9 (which begins with the words "And yet the picture is.., " and ends with "Jacob Hoefnagel, or", we are back again in ' Hertogenbosch, with Huygens in the village of Vught, and the "middle aged" Huygens at 33 is writing his autobiography.

Now you just KNOW this is going to come together here soon, or do you? What effect does this changing of subject tantalizingly around have on your own concentration of the subject? Are you impatient to get OVER Huygens or not?

OOPs and here's a William of Orange!! The first Stadholder, .

What do you think of the education that Huygens's father afforded him? How does that compare to the education of today, do you think?

Didn't you love the bit about "the arts were 'a polisher of imbred rudenesse and our infirmity, and a curer of many diseases our minds are subject unto?" And so art, drawing, was added to his education.

Now those of you with liberal arts educations, did you take any sort of art courses? If so, why?

Have you, in fact, ever taken a course in drawing or painting or anything?

Is art still offered in the schools now?

I well remember, can't recall the specific grade, may have been 7th, but we were assigned in some sort of rotating art class thing with music and something else, to draw a telephone. They said to draw it the way it looks to you, I anxiously inquired first. I can draw today the phone exactly as I did then. The teacher said that did not look like a phone, at all and that I had better try some other field. I think I will draw it again and scan it in here and you tell me if it looks like a phone or not.

What was YOUR first experience in creating art and were you encouraged or discouraged and does THAT make any difference?

Gosh on Joris Hoefnagel, have you ever heard of HIM? Looks like artistic ability runs in the family and I just HAD to turn the page to see what Huygens's mother wanted…so will take that up tomorrow.

Does art ability run in families? I can think of the Wyeths, but what of others??

???

What are your thoughts on these two pages today??

Thank you Pat, that does not look like the same person OR artist to me, but as we know I have a LONG way to go and I intend to go there and learn with you all!

Joan G, (like your quote)…AHA, OH FOR PETE'S SAKE, DOES ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO TURN OFF CAPS? I HAVE HIT THE CAP LOCK BUTTON A MILLION TIMES? HELP?

OH WELL, CARRY ON, THANK YOU JOAN, ALL CALVINISTS ARE NOT PRESBYTERIANS BUT PRESBYTERIANS DID COME FROM CALVANISTS, DID YOU FORGET THE LINK? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT SOMETIME, I THINK JOAN IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A HURRICANE SO NO HURRY!

I AM SO SORRY TO BE SHOUTING HERE, BUT THERE SEEMS NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT?

BRIAN, GOOD IDEA ON MOVING THE BOOKMARK (DO YOU KNOW HOW TO TURN THIS OFF, MY KEYBOARD IS POSSESSED!)

ANYWAY HAVE TAKEN TO PUTTING THE PAGE FOR TODAY IN THE TITLE LINE OF THE DISCUSSION TO HELP THANK YOU FOR THAT TITLE LINE, I LIKE THAT. I HATE CAPS BUT I LIKE THAT!

OH GOOD POINTS ON THE INSIGHTS ABOUT REMBRANDT, LOVE IT.

OH I AGREE JOAN K, YOU DO SEEM TO KNOW THE PERSON FROM LOOKING AT A REMBRANDT, I DID NOT REALLY REALIZE THAT TILL NOW, THAT'S A GOOD POINT ABOUT (DON'T YOU HATE THESE CAPS, I CAN'T EVEN MAKE THEM SMALL!)

ANYWAY THAT'S A GOOD POINT ABOUT MAKING YOUR SUBJECTS LOOK GOOD, I CAN'T WAIT TILL WE SEE THAT, BUT SERIOUSLY, IF YOU PAID A PAINTER FOR YOUR PORTRAIT, HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT TO LOOK? BOY I BETTER LOOK GOOD AND DO WE ACTUALLY SEE OURSELVES AS OTHERS SEE US?

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY HAD THEN TO SHOW, TOO, NO PHOTOS, REMEMBER HENRY VIII AND HIS GERMAN BRIDE?...HOLBEIN HAD DONE A PAINTING OF HER AND HENRY WAS ENAMORED OF IT BUT WHEN HE SAW HER IN PERSON HE SAID "I LIKE HER NOT!"

THAT PBS SERIES THE SIX WIVES OF HENRY VIII WITH KEITH MICHELL IS PERFECTLY MARVELOUS AS A PERIOD PIECE AND SETS THE STATE WELL FOR THIS, TOO.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE LOVELOCK IS, I CAN'T SEE IT EITHER!

HATE CAPS.

HALF ARMOR IS QUITE STARTLING WHEN YOU SEE IT IN A MUSEUM, HAVE ANY OF YOU SEEN IT? THE TOP HALF ONLY, ONE WONDERS. I AM SURE IT WAS STIFLING.

ARE WE AHEAD OR BEHIND, I THINK WE HAVE IT UNDER CONTROL NOW, THE PROBLEM IS SCHAMA DID NOT START WITH PAGE 1, SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION HAHAHA I MYSELF DON'T KNOW WHERE WE ARE, SO IT'S IN THE TITLE OF THE BOOK NOW.

OH GOOD POINT EMMABARB ABOUT THE LIGHT IN REMBRANDT HIGHLIGHTING WHAT HE WANTED US TO BE ATTRACTED TO FIRST. IT WORKED! CAN'T WAIT TILL WE GET TO THE FAMOUS "NIGHT WATCH!" CAN'T WAIT TO HEAR WHERE YOUR EYES GO FIRST. CAN'T WAIT TO SHUT OFF THIS COMPUTER AND GET THE KEYBOARD WORKING, TOO MUCH DIET PEPSI ON THE KEYS I GUESS.

MARY!! WELCOME, I AM GLAD TO SEE YOU FIND YOUR WAY HERE, I 'LL EMAIL EVERYBODY WITH THE NEW DISCUSSION, SORRY!

WE THINK WE'RE ONLY ON PAGE 9 HAAHAHA

BRIAN, SUPER ANALYSIS ON REMBRANDT THE ACTOR, I AGREE SCHAMA IS, IN MY OPINION, (HIGHLY ACCENTUATED WITH CAPS) DOING A SUPER JOB SHOWING US WHAT TO LOOK FOR.

WELL I'M GOING OFF TO DRAW A TELEPHONE FOR YOU AND LET YOU BE THE JUDGE, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ADDRESS ANYTHING AT ALL IN THESE FIRST 9 PAGES YOU LIKE. LET'S SEE YOUR TELEPHONES! SNORT.

I am so glad you filled in where we are - I was totally lost this morning - did not know if we were counting the page with his portrait as a day to examine his work or what - this is most helpful to list the page numbers - I do have a hardback copy therefore was not aware there were different page numbers but after about 5 days of reading I need an anchor to let me know where we are...Thanks really most helpful...

Having painted regularly with a group back in the 70s and early 80s for about 12 years - we met and had our studio at what is now so uptown it is difficult to realize how casual we all were at Luguna Gloria now upscale with an additional location downtown - well it was a time of experimenting with shapes and texture -

I've read that Rembrandt, true to the Dutch painters of the time used Stand Oil as the medium to mix their colors - Stand Oil is a horrible medium and yet it appears they made it work beautifully - Stand Oil is the thickest, sort of orangy oil available that when mixed with paint it was like whipping up a thick morange but once you stopped messing with it - it lost all its thick height and would drool all over the canvas - the only way to use it was to cook it first and then mix it with the paint - for us it seemed like just too much work.

Well I am reading and that is exactly what the Dutch artist's assistance did along with adding a bit of linseed oil which we did not know to try.

But the other biggie is - where today we have many other manufactured colors including a much better white than that old lead white that tended to have a yellow caste - however today, it all comes out of a tube in approximately, according to color, three thicknesses. Yes, White is still the thickest - almost like Disetin - you know that fishy cream moms used on baby's raw bottom - than most colors are about as thick as vaseline and a few do not hold any shape and remind me of MYOFLEX that cream we use for sore muscles and I find great to help with a migrane...

Well for these painters the had as many thickness of paint as there were colors and so building up a canvas was as much about choosing an underpaint and then one wash after the other of a more transparent paint.

Rembrandt they say was the master of brown - well when I read the palate he used no wonder - he pretty much kept to the reds - the yellows - lead white and black - you can pretty much get all the browns, greens, reds, oranges, yellows, golds and silvers you need but blue would be out of the picture - most reds and yellows mixed with black will give you a green.

And working colors you cannot just darken a color with black - will not work - you must use a color that is its opposite on the color wheel and so, the greens will work to darken both the reds and the yellows. The same with lightening a color - you cannot just add white without changing the color and so a white ground is covered with glazes of the color you want a lighter version - and since this stand oil takes about two weeks to set that means you work on pieces of the canvas as each area sets till you can add your next wash.

He would have had to love the process of painting as much as trying to duplicate any scene or character because the texture created by the choice of paints is as much of an adventure as getting the colors to do what you want them to do. Doing one painting is reminding me now after all these years of building - first the look - the character and where the nose and hat was going to be placed on the canvas and then like a builder to get the bricks to stay a certain cement would be mixed and to get the window to bow a certain wood would bend after it is wet etc. etc.

I also wonder how loopy these artists were - I remember after a day of painting with all the fumes mixed with the steam from our coffee we came out of the studio sort of floating till we filled our lungs with some fresh air again.

And lead - my oh my - we have legal contracts now where a seller who sells a pre 1978 house has him declare if lead base paint was used hmmm and here we had white paint being made with pieces of lead left in bowls of vinegar in back of the stable where the horse manure was stored and every other week or so the white was picked off the lead buckles that were caste just for this purpose. I wonder if all the lead pickled anyone's brains at the time...

The CAPITALS can be turned off on the keyboard - - - "CapsLock" key.
On my Microsoft keyboard, a small warning light comes on to let you know
that you have (? inadvertently) hit the CapsLock key - - - I do it all the time with
a stab at the "Shift" key that misses. If that is not the answer in your case, I don't
know the answer.

I have the hard cover edition, and page 7 starts with "ii Leiden 1629 " and ends
with "beer" - - - (not a bad idea at that!!!)

The pages with prints of the paintings, have their regular numbers, so that on a page day
we could post what that particular picture did, or was supposed to do, for each of us?

I, personally, never had any formal lessons in art or painting, but have dabbled in oils,
and "know what I like.")

Brian

Hello,

I had to go away for a few days, but I'm back and caught up. Barbara, thanks for that post about religous wars being mostly about politics. It helps put things in perspective.

Someone said they didn't think Rembrandt was very nice looking, but I thought in the picture on page 6 he was attractive, though he certainly doesn't look 23!

About the lovelock, if you go to this site, you can see it!

lovelock: edited to shorten url

Somehow seeing the lovelock changes the whole perspective of the picture. It's too bad our book didn't reproduce it!

The page numbering in the hard and soft cover editions of the book is the same, by the way.

The reason we often do not see in magazine or book prints what is in the original is a magazine and book graphic is made up of tiny dots and there are a limited number of shades of the four colors of ink used in printing -

The other way to affect the color is to not fill up the entire dot so that there is say 80% of a dot with one color ink and the other 20% has a different color or shade of the color ink -

In spite of these techniques there is still a limit how closely a printed page can match the huge variety of tints and shades on a piece of art of in nature -

Also there is a limit to the number of silk screens that can be used - some screens may only have 1/10 of the dots with each of those dots only 1/10 of the dot space but in all even the best print on paper done in Japan or Germany are limited to how closely the four colors of ink [magenta, yellow, black and cyan] can be manipulated to match the variety of color in a piece of art.

Here is a site that sort of explains the process - it includes more information because it is considering the use of a computer where as a good graphic printing still does not rely on the computer but uses silk screens. Halftone Basics

Now there are processes to get a high resolution copy but, the copy than costs mucho dollars - or enough copies are printed so they will sell within a reasonable amount of time to pay back the cost - these more expensive pricesses are used for those art prints and posters we buy in museum shops and galleries.

I know I keep coming up with this stuff - and probably you are saying - not again - but I spent several years silk screening and teaching how to silk screen and so of course I am looking at this work with my experience in art and printing...after looking at the great link that Scamper provided I thought it would be helpful to know the reason we can see more on the computer copy as compared to the book graphic - it has all to do with how art can reproduced.

And I bet if we could see one of Rembrandt's works we would see all sorts of hils and valleys that would catch the light giving the painting yet more depth and other aspects of the painting would jump out at us...

How lucky you were Ginny to have seen some of this - wouldn't it be grand if we could all jump on a plane and see some of Rembrandt's work - does anyone know if any of his work is in any of the museums here in the States?

I'm visiting my daughter in LA later on There's a Rembrandt exhibit at the Getty now, I'm planning to go. Hopefully it will still be on when I get there, (She may be working on her TV show but I am a big girl and can go alone ) Sorry have not been in touch (London & all that) We are on hiatus from the computers so I'm hoping to catch up with the rest of you. Colkot

The National Galleryof Art in Washington has four of his paintings : -
Self Portrait 1659, The Mill 1660, Portrait of a Lady with Ostrich Feather Fan
and Joseph Accused by Potiphar's Wife.

The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Minneapolis, and the Institute of Arts, have another four : -
Lucretia (I. of A.), Self Portrait 1660, Man with a Magnifying Glass, and Aristotle with a Bust of Homer. <br.

There are a couple in L.A., one in Boston, and a couple more in N.Y.

The greatest concentration of Rembrandt's paintings is , naturally, in Holland, but St Petersburg has
more than its fair share. The rest are scattered through the capitals and major cities of the world.

Brian

I haven't seen the liefdelok, the lovelock trailing over Rembrandt's left shoulder. He must have taken great pains with his lovelock -- also known from its origins in the French court as a cadenette -- since of course it took immense care to produce the required effect of carelessness. The hair had to be cut asymmetrically, the top of the lock kept full while its body was thinned to taper along its length, ending in the gathered and separated strands. I think the problem (with my book anyway) is the reproduction of the paintings is not that great and one needs to actually see the real painting.

I've had art courses (some private, some thru the local college and an art academy); painted with a local art league once a week and have been a model for some art classes (mainly just my face).
I had the experience of going back to my grade school in my teens and discovering a mural I painted while there as a little kid. The school had varnished it and hung it in the hallway. I remember working on it during history classes. My aunt was a big influence with my art (she was a school teacher of music and art, english and history). She wanted me to become a fashion designer but that never happened because noone was willing to pay for my education.

Scamper .... that's great in that link you provided I can clearly see the lovelock.

Ginny ~ I look forward to your drawing of a telephone.

Emma

Hondius, Huygen's teacher, is mentioned on p. 10.

If you scroll down within this link, there is material about maps and engravings
and on Jodocus Hondius, whose work was continued by his sons:

Hondius

We learn more than I really need to know about Huygen. But how interesting -- the idea that a well bred man should know about everything and how to do all the arts. One of the site called Huygen the last Renaissance man. We certainly have come very far from that. In the US, even very intelligent, well educated people know a lot about their field, but almost nothing about anything else.

In the 1800s, from reading Jane Austen, it seemed in England that it was women who were expected to keep culture alive (presumably their men were too busy) by dabbling in writing and the arts.

the flip side of this is that Huygens in the 17th century, women in the 18th were only supposed to dabble: if they tried to seriously work in the arts, they had trouble.

Thanks, Brian, unfortunately it was a serious glitch of some kind but it's over now, had to reboot, have NO idea what went wrong!

I think I've figured this out, the PAGE we'll be reading will be one page before the date? So if today is the 12th we're discussing page 11, does that sound right?? Hahahaa

Ok you asked for it, here's the

Now you have to remember that the phone in question was from the early 50's, if we drew one now it wouldn't look like that. I took no time with this, the holes on the dial for your finger are not uniform and there's no silver thing to stop your finger, as there was in my original, but let me ask you now, could you tell what that was or would you think it was a space ship?

Hahaha I guess there are easier ways to tell somebody they have no talent. Hahaaha

Now I think everybody needs to submit a phone so we can compare! Fair's fair~!

But now when you look at what Rembrandt did!!!! Hardly a comparison, huh? hahahaa

I echo Joan K, (WOW) who, I'm sorry to see on another board, is off for surgery, hope that goes well our Joan!!

So today we need to do pages 10 and 11, I hope (or I do anyway, these storms keep getting me behind. How's the weather with YOU? I no sooner get on then I have to quickly get off and I am getting nothing whatsoever done on the computer, I am sorry to be so tardy. Just in composing THIS I have been interrupted 3 times by storms, and I must admit I grow tired of running around the back of the computer and unplugging it and then running the dog out to his kennel lest he go berserk and trash the house which he did yesterday and….uh oh, there's thunder…uh oh….typing much faster!

Anyway let me respond to YOU all anyway.

In Edit: Much later after we lost power for a while

Honestly rain rain go AWAY!

Barbara, how do your hardback pages align with the paperback, are they the same (rumble rumble goes the thunder)

Oh thank you for that Stand Oil, is THAT what they used to put in those old paint cans? So awful looking? I remember it, if so? Big paint cans? I used to watch them paint decoy ducks for some reason and boy if you did not stir THAT paint you got the most horrid looking oils, I had forgotten that!

Hahah I had no idea you had so much experience in painting! But after reading how long it took things to dry and the process I think I may be in agreement with you, the fumes must have been intense. I do like the smell, tho, just not at huge quantities.

I can say having seen Rembrandt's actual study that the ceilings were high and there were lots of windows to open, I'll try to put a photo of it in here once I can stay on 4 minutes long.

Brian…your page 7 is the same as mine but… oh you're RIGHT, the paintings that take up the full pages have a number TOO, YES! Let's say our newly informed take on them when that page comes up! YES! Super idea!

Scamper! THERE you are! Welcome back! I thought I had scared you away with the Scamper the Summarizer thing, good! Thank you for the hardback and paperback having the same pagination and for the love lock illustration. (WHERE is it? I still don't see it? Off to the right?) Wonder why he put IT in shadow, he's got two shoulders? Maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing or something?

Barbara thank you for that explanation of halftones and the dots! You are always seeing those DOTS when something is really enlarged, it's kind of frightening, I now reflect, on how little I DO know! Hahahaa

Barbara, I loved Amsterdam and Rembrandt's House and would go again in a skinny minute. (ON KLM, they give you a collectable china Dutch house) ahahaha

Colkot! There YOU are! It's like old home week here, welcome back! Do tell us what painting it is and all about it when you have seen it. See how close to it you can get to study the gobs and stuff.

AH! Brian says "Where are Rembrandt's paintings? The National Galleryof Art in Washington has four of his paintings : - Self Portrait 1659, The Mill 1660, Portrait of a Lady with Ostrich Feather Fan and Joseph Accused by Potiphar's Wife"

Well those are pretty famous. We'll just all have to attend our next Bookfest in Washington DC and see for ourselves! It will be our own Rembrandt Club at the Bookfest!

Emmabarb, I can't SEE the lovelock and the original is in Nuremberg, so I doubt I'll ever see it, that's not high on my list of travel plans. Who does see it here?

Wow you have quite a background in art too. They asked me in college to be a model, too, and I said havers no and they said well just your feet then. If they could see them now they would be a commercial for bunions, hammertoes and other assorted foot problems hahahaha My one chance for fame as a model ahahaha WHAT? You can see the lovelock in Scamper's photo? I can't? WHERE??

What is your artistic take on my phone?!? (not to worry I won’t be upset, I am no Grandma Moses at this age) hahaaha

Mippy, thank you for that link to Hondius, what a huge subject this is turning out to be, nothing is an island, everything and everybody seems to be interconnected, or is that just the way Schama presents it?!? Is Schama alive? I wonder if he'd talk to us?!?

Joan, how interesting, "The Last Renaissance Man!" Wonder why him? How do his dates compare with Thomas More? I guess Thomas More was in the 1500's? I have always gotten Thomas More confused with Thomas a Becket for some strange reason but that's neither here nor there.

Oh good point also on the Arts as Career in the 18th century. I am wondering, idly as I read about the history of Art as a career. Wasn't Holbein very highly regarded? What about Michelangelo? Does anybody know THAT? How about DaVinci?

Well, the book continues a veritable Pandora's box. We can see the hold over in what used to be called a "Liberal Arts" education, with courses in Art, Philosophy, Music, Religion, etc. Raises all sorts of questions, doesn't it?

Now today we're off on pages (or at least I am) 10 and 11. I also read the Author's Note right before the footnotes , which are getting more interesting, themselves, because I was tired of skipping it.

I found it fascinating, have any of you read it? It's about the telling whether or not every painting attributed TO Rembrandt IS a Rembrandt and the compilation of what he calls the Corpus, it's fascinating. He also questions whether or not two such different versions of the self portrait with gorget existed, I really enjoyed it.

Have any of you noticed, by the way, that the self portrait of Constantijn (how I love knowing how to pronounce that) shows eyes which are somewhat…askew??

Is it just me? More askew eyes?

I'm not thinking from what the author describes here that there's much difference in the aristocracy today and back then, doesn't Prince Charles paint? But notice that if one wanted to BECOME a painter, that was quite different.

Looks like Rubens was able to turn a mouse into an Emperor in art and make every flabby toothless soldier an heroic warrior, I think that's there for a reason too. Do any of you have any links to something Rubens did we can see so we can understand what's being talked about?

Didn't you LOVE the description of Rubens who himself was "noble." "His frightening learning, his unfailingly graceful courtesy."

He had become one of the seven wonders of the world.

Does anybody know the extent of this "frightening learning?"

I'm really enjoying this book and moving this slowly I do feel I am understanding it, but what of the rest of you?

"Frightening learning," I wonder how old Rubens was at this time, again I don't know. And it appears that Huygens wrote an autobiography from which Schama is taking much of this, did you ever dream this was such a complex subject??

Didn't you love the "oils were unfit for gentlemen?" hahahaa

Have you ever met anybody who you thought had "frightening learning?" I have. Thomas Hoving. I am not sure how that man manages to live among us mortals and I don't mean that hatefully, but sincerely. I don't know how he finds anybody to talk with. We met him in 1998, he's the former Director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the discoverer of the Bury St. Edmunds Cross, which he talks about in his book King of the Confessors, which I recommend heartily. He's amazing, of truly "frightening knowledge," didn't you think so, Joan G?

OK your turn, that's my take on 10 and 11, but what's YOURS? What strikes your fancy here??

Ginny ~ you telephone drawing is great....I would definitely know it's a phone. I remember those rotary dial phones

Rembrandt would probably have started with something similar in his underpainting, then he would have sculpted the drawing to include form with shadow and light and reflected shadow and light. Then he probably blended the back edges so as not to be too hard. Drawing is very important and it reflects the final outcome. Anyone wanting to paint should have serious drawing lessons first....then study the best artists. My art teacher used to say if you're going to copy a painting make sure it's a good one, otherwise you'd be copying all their mistakes. Even Rembrandt as a young artist copied those prominent artists of his time....like Rubens.

There were many secret formulas of the Old Masters. If I can find the link I'll post it again....it references a book. Even today this medium is cooked to look like black oil....actually there are two...the Italian and the Flemish medium. The Flemish (I seem to recall) is more the consistency of thick butter. I am allergic to turpentine so this medium worked so much better for me. They use "mastic tears"... Rembrandt had the formula after much experimenting....one reason his paintings have lasted so many years.

Emma

Painting Medium of the Old Masters"

Interesting EmmaBarb - there is a good bit of information about Jacques Maroger (1884 - 1962) painter and the technical director of the Louvre Museum's laboratory in Paris, France here on Wikipedia. Looks like he stirred up quite a controversy with his formula and the article does include the formula he thinks was used by a list of artists he studied that does include Rubens.

Looks like he developed 6 formulas after 6 artists and those formulas are sold with his name Maroger & His Mediums

Found one of Hondius' engravings - Hondius World Map

Amazing - here Huygens is saying Rubins is "one of the seven wonders of the world" and yet, because he was a Catholic his work could not hang in the court of Frederik Hendrik...

Here is a painting of Constantijn Huygens and his Clerk when you scroll down a bit there is much there about Huygens with another name - Prince's Noordeinde - we haven't heard of Noordeinde yet, have we...

aha - here we go - The Noordeinde Palace in The Hague was given to Hendrik by the States of Holland in 1609. This palace has undergone several renovations and is still used today. The Huis ten Bosch Palace, on the outskirts of The Hague, was designed as the summer residence of Hendrik's wife.

A Winter Landscape ~ Esaias vande Velde at the National Gallery in London.

Oh my the rather fancy looking Michiel van Mierevelt in Delft with two of his paintings of the older half brother to Frederik, Prince Maurice.

Pieter Lastman's "The Angel and Tobias with the Fish" I don't know this story - I assume it is a Bible story - need to look it up...

I've seen these sketches haven't you - Abraham Bloemaert Utrecht, Three Studies of Women aha another Catholic though...as was Lastman...

This etching by Johannes Brosterhuysen was the basis for Norbert J. Freese in 1947 to interject the heads and part-bodies of three enormous birds.

And finally here is Jan Lievens and I have to agree where the other artists had charm this work seems more in keeping with what I would imagine to be the work of an artist to hang in an important government house.

Did anyone see the interview Charlie Rose did with Steve Wynn, the multi millionaire with what is now claimed to be the most beautiful hotel in the US located in Las Vegas - The man is one of just a few collectors of art of the highest quality and he has created a museum in the hotel with his collection on display - AND it includes a self portrait of Rembrandt - interesting how Wynn said that he stood directly in front of the painting, level with Rembrandt's eyes and looked him in the eye and felt transported to the man and his studio.

Can't for the next two weeks but, hurrah yippie - there is a Rembrandt in Fort Worth at the Kimbell and more than one at the Houston Museum of Art - Houston, I can run over and back in a day but the Kimbell would be too long a day - 3 1/2 hour drive up and then to have time to see the museum have dinner and another 3 1/2 hour drive - so an overnight would be more appropriate - I just must though and with gas costing me as much as a room Whew - I may wait till early fall when you know the prices will slip back because there will not be as many vacationers on the road to hike the prices up so as to get into their back pockets...

EmmaBarb do you still paint? Did you paint at home or with a group somewhere - what do you work in - oils, acrylic, watercolor, pastel??? Do you have a favorite artist...?

Ginny: This may be off-topic, but you asked about whether Schama is still writing, back several posts;
he now teaches at Columbia University. If someone wants to reach him, regarding
this discussion, it might be do-able.

As far as his other recent works: 2 volumes of "A History of Britain", published in 2001, were used in a
documentary venture with BBC television. Each volume is over 500 pages!
Vol 1, which I've finished, "At the Edge of the World?", goes up to 1603.
Vol 2, which I'm stuck in the middle of, is "The Wars of the British, 1603-1776". I ought to skim a little bit,
to get through Cromwell, and pick up at the juicy part about the restoration.

Barbara: what a lot of excellent links! I would sure like to learn the knack of finding better links than I have
so far. I do use search engines, but keep coming back to the same sources over and over.

As a p.s. (Latin, hahaha, as Ginny says):
I also paint from time to time, in watercolors; that's where I was all morning, at the Heritage Gardens in
Sandwich, MA. However, reading about all these artists, rather than providing inspiration to me, almost makes me give up, as being a hopeless, dabbling amateur.

That hahaha is getting infectious, isn't it? hahaha If it's Wednesday, this must be Belgium…er…. No no, if it's the 13th we must be on page 12, right? Hahaha

Emmabarb, THANK you! I knew if I kept on I would find a true artist who would appreciate that latent talent!!! hahaahah Well really it does NOT look like a sausage! hmpf

Good points on the importance of drawing and especially one should copy a good painting, I never thought you'd be copying their mistakes!

THANK you for that link!!! (how can you clean up if you are allergic to turpentine, how did you find out you WERE??!!??)

Barbara, thank you for those links, and I caught that, too, because XX was Catholic they'd look further!

LOVE that Hondius map!! I have a calendar of old maps but isn't THAT one gorgeous, I've saved that. Where is the miniaturist stuff coming in? The small cameos? Or?

Wow what a bleak looking winter scene, huh? Lots of mud.

Great links, thank you so much. Tobias (I forget him, too) looks like he has a combination catfish dragon there!

No I missed the interview with Steve Winn, but I love that transported thing, is THAT how we are to feel? Or are supposed to feel when we look at a painting?

AHA~! Houston and a Rembrandt, for heaven's sake be careful on those awful roads, is there no train or anything? Let us know your experience when you get to go next month!

Thank you Mippy for the information on Schama, did you like his first book? Was the Henry VIII part interesting?

The Cromwells I also get mixed up a lot. It's a wonder I can even function hahahaa

Oh good for you Dabbling Mippy, but let's see YOUR phone!! I think our litmus test here will be a PHONE!

Hahaaha

(nobody can do one worse than I have! Email me your phone drawing and I'll put them up for you here) IF you dare!

Well here we are on page 12, that bit about this or that artist would not do because he was Catholic is startling and sort of explains some of the introduction, no?

Now who is this Jan Lievens and why have we never (have we?) heard of him? I don't know him?

Boy that bit about plaster, tho, really hit home. I am not sure I understand what Schama is saying here about "If he were already fortunate, an entire picture- of a great vase of flowers, an East Indiaman in full sail, or the portrait of William the Silent—could be constructed from brilliantly colored pieces." I assume an East Indiaman is a boat of some kind?

What's he talking about, tho? Are people sticking pieces of paper on the walls to hide the plaster failures?

Boy I can talk about plaster! (Is he right about mold?) All our walls are plaster, ceilings too. I can talk about plaster. Did you know plaster is a living thing? If it gets wet it does its own thing. IMAGINE having plaster walls in Holland which is below sea level in the first place. Wow oh wow.

Now I have heard of people papering their walls with the Sunday comic strips but this was the 1600's and they didn't have them then. What's he talking about here, did anybody understand??

Do any of you have plaster walls? I can't actually see the bricks underneath, on page 13 (stealing a peek at tomorrow's) can you all? PAINT peels off plaster, does plaster peel also? She asked having an entire HOUSE full of plaster?

OOPS have gone too far, and so now will cease, what are your thoughts here on any of pages 1-12??

Mippy as a hopeless dabbling amateur I doubt - but isn't really about the process rather than the outcome - I guess I remember back as a child when EVERYONE took piano lessons - when radio was the only source of free entertainment - families partyed with some aunt or uncle who played the piano and all those who did not do it well knew about certain songs because we all learned them when we practiced - and we knew when to turn the page if the player used sheet music and we were all intimately aware of the sound of live music where as now hardly ever do we hear live music unless we pay for it.

I think with painting also - we look at everything differently - we can describe colors using the colors of paint as a reference - we know a bit about design - we see things in more detail because we have painted and the impression of what we see is emplanted differently so that we do not need a book of photos to remember a trip or vacation - we can still see the scenes and the sunlight in our heads - and if nothing else because of our interest when we look at other art work we have a sense of it - and therefore we support looking at other art work - I also find I need my home and garden to have a sense of composition, balance, color etc. because what we learn in art becomes how we see the world around us.

And so like the well educated seventeenth century teen I think we are adding to as much as we take from classical education even if we are engaging in our older years. As to the outcome - well I could compare my dancing to Fred Astair or my money earning skills to Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos or my investment skills to James Gorman, president of Merrill Lynch’s Global Private Client group or my homemaking and gardening skills to Martha Stewart or Will Raap, Founder and Chairman of Gardener's Supply and my cooking skills to Chef Paul Prudhomme of New Oleans or the casino/hotel/art collector Steve Wynn and then my house would be encased in dust because I would feel so inadequate and my bank account would be empty because I felt inadequate - you get the picture -

whoops same time posting Ginny - I do not know how we "should" look at art but I was just fascinated with this guy - and learned a thing or two - like those who privately own famous works of art all know each other and what they have and the purchase is never at auction but a private sale -

He also owns and looked Van Gough [sp] in the eye and saw he was a crazy coot that simply needed some prosaic - he knew each artist, everything they ever painted, who owned what pieces both new and older artists -

His idea is to do everything he is involved with as beautifully as possible - believing that we should not have to go to Europe to find the most beautiful rooms or buildings or to Greece or Egypt to find the most beautiful and amazing buildings - he wants to create that kind of building here in the US and from the panning of the camera on this new hotel and hearing what went into the design this man is on his way -

I wish it was not Las Vegas but that is where the land is - he also proved all his bankers wrong when he opened his art museum in another hotel in Vegas he has had more folks through the museum at $17 a ticket than all the famous shows including that pair with the Tiger - forget their name - the guy was nearly killed by the tiger - well that show was supposed to be the all time money maker and his art museum made more money...yes, he is a business man but he is also a collector who is willing to share his private collection with a wider audience.

Tomorrow we celebrate Rembrandt's birthday .... born in Leiden, Holland on July 15, 1606 "Happy (would be) 399th Birthday !" Some contradiction as to the actual year....1606 or was it 1607 ? Or does it matter.

Barbara St.Aubrey ~ Thanks for those great links.
Most of my creative painting is on the computer these days. Now and then I get the urge to draw or paint but no oils anymore. I did paint with a group as well as at home...now it's just me and myself
There are many artist's works my favorite....as for a favorite artist, most are long dead.... but I do have a few I've been friends with over the years I try to keep up with.

I found some photos today of paintings by Rubens that I took in a Munich museum several years ago. I'll try to take a digital of them to put on computer and if they look good enough will post here. The actual paintings were huge so I had to stand away back from them and lost a lot of the detail.

Mippy -- I'd love to see those DVDs of Schama's "History of Britain"...there's another he did also....something about Culture and Riches of Dutch Art ? I'm looking for that one on DVD....have you seen it ?

Ginny ~ you ask how I cleaned up if I'm allergic to turpentine. The medium I painted with cleaned up nicely (the brushes and palette that is) with Wisk laundry detergent. If I was in the late into the night painting and didn't feel like cleaning up I wrapped my brushes in aluminum wrap and stuck in freezer and the palette I covered with plastic wrap. By-the-way, that M.medium does have lead in it as well as the lead based white oil paint I used so I had to be careful not to put the brush tip or my fingers in my mouth while working.
Turpentine used to burn my eyes and I had trouble breathing if I painted for any length of time. I was really happy to find this new way of painting with the M.formula. I used both the Italian and the Flemish depending on the effect I wanted. You must keep the lid on the jar as it forms a skin on it and then you have to dig into it and waste a lot of it. I only put a little at a time on the palette because that too forms a slight skin if you aren't working with it. My teacher had a source for us to purchase homemade formula. Now the art stores carry it.

Reading this book is making me think about my own art and maybe thinking of taking it in a different direction. I won't make that decision just yet.
Emma

Happy 399th Birthday, Rembrandt!!!

Does that make Rembrandt a LEO??

I never read that astrology stuff, but isn't the sign of Leo July 22 - Aug 21?

Barbara,
Thanks for that riff on not being Martha Stewart, etc.
I have no trouble with a messy house, or non-Martha housekeeping, but painting is different! Perhaps when I was a child I dreamed of being a painter after frequently seeing gorgeous paintings in the art museum. And now being a retired hobby-painter, the dreams of childhood resurface in unguarded moments.

EmmaBarb
I have not seen any films or DVDs based on Schama's works. I have read many of his books, including the one you were perhaps thinking about: Embarrassment of Riches: an Interpretation of Dutch Culture... I definitely recommend it, although it is not (surprise) an easy read.
Ginny,
I have no idea how to email a drawing; help?
Why draw telephones, anyway, when we could draw windmills;
that's what I painted yesterday, keeping in tune with Dutch sensibilities.
Cape Cod had dozens and dozens of windmills to grind wheat into flour, corn into corn meal, and even salt, during the 17th and 18th centuries. No polders, however, although salt marshes were drained with pumps.

Since today is Rembrandt's birthday, I want especially not to fail to come in, but note that Schama considers Rembrandt very interested, "drawn" to ruin: "The poetry of imperfection." Somehow I think that's important.

The pits and pocks and "scrofulous," what is that? I may have that? Scabby skin gives a "mottled richness?" This man was before his time, etc., tho the Romans in the Republic did the same thing in their sculpture.

The book of decay. Sagging timbers of decrepit barns, "lichenous masonry of derelict buildings," neato.

Now would you say this is in contrast to the other artists depicted so far?!!?

Oh boy outside and inside, compulsive peeler, this is fascinating, what is your reaction to all this??!!??

Precise brushes and you can see in the footnote more on this. Isn't this fascinating? Don't YOU want to run out and learn to or continue your painting? I'll let MY phone stand for me tho, that's the ability I have, but doesn't it make your fingers itch?? Oh and we see the critics disagree: did he work too fast or too slow? How can they disagree on that? We'll find out tomorrow!!

(What do YOU think? Fast or slow here?)

Millions of questions these past two days, what are the answers, what questions do YOU have ???

Mippy I dunno, I thought all July's were Leos, will look it up, he doesn't seem to have that personality so far, so you are probably right (hope no Leo's are in attendance? Hahahaa) I did NOT know Cape Cod had windmills! And I've been there, I think once? Or maybe twice.

Oh if you can paint a windmill, I believe I'd leave the phone off? Hahahaah Anybody who has a scanner can sketch something, scan it in and attach it (not too big an image) in email, the phone was just a…..jumping off place.

Windmills, fascinating, I saw several in Holland this time, despite being told on my last visit to Belgium that there were very few left in that country, maybe 6, there are plenty of them in Holland, or so I kept finding them.

I find it hard to imagine that he could paint something so real and so detailed in a heartbeat, but I know nothing of painting, what do those of you who DO say? Don't you have to wait for the top part to dry out first or do you sort of mix the layers?

Barbara, thank you for that background to Steve Winn, that's very interesting, I wish it were not in Las Vegas, too. It's going to be interesting to best some of the architecture of the ancients or of history tho, fascinating.

EmmaBarb, do show us some digital shots of your own viewing of Rubens in the Munich Museum. I love Munich but got so carried away by the Science Museum, that, despite having stayed there a week I never made it to the art museums!!??!!

Shame shame, but I did enjoy what I did see, immensely, I got lost in the coal mine exhibition and nearly killed by the rolling car, and enjoyed an hour long demonstration in German on how to make paper, we all got a piece to take home, even tho the instructor thought I was a bit slow as I did not answer any of his questions (since I don't have a word of German beyond hello good bye and thank you very much) hahaahhaa, but I bet you a dollar I could make paper today!

Oh and Neuschwanstein (sp)!!!!! I LOVE Munich!

For heaven's sake how fascinating on the M formula. I love things that are arcane and intricate, and there seem to be so many in the world!

I'd love to see your digital art, too, how does that process differ?

Happy Birthday Rembrandt, and thank you, Emma Barb, for telling us, we in the Books seem to have a 6th sense about the timeliness of our discussions! Au Courant! That's US!

Sorry, all Leos. Yes, your sign is at present.
Indeed, this is the month for Leos, I had to look it up; mea culpa.
July 22 - Aug 21? I knew it included my husband, who can roar if necessary!

Tilting at windmills?
Having no scanner, I cannot post my latest, watercolor windmill.
To clarify, Cape Cod windmills are not in use, but are on display as historical artifacts.
Perhaps EmmaBarb can tell us how to learn to do drawings on the computer.
Re: Painting techniques: Today, whether a painter does wet into wet, or dries each layer, then paints over it, the desire is often, IMO, to avoid the look of a photograph.
Rembrandt certainly accomplished that in spades in the Artist in His Studio (on p. 15). The detail of the vulnerable core of the wall is stunning. Who would have looked at the entire picture and seen that detail if Schama had not highlighted "the fishtail triangle" of the broken wall?

Does that make Rembrandt a LEO?? No, a CANCER. Rembrandt has the same birthday as my husband!! He'll be stunned. He couldn't draw his way out of a paper bag Well, I have the same birthday as Marilyn Monroe and -- well, never mind LOL.

I'll be in and out until I have hip replacement surgery on July 21, and probably gone for a week after, but I'll be back.

GINNY: you're telephone is just fine. I am a drawing klutz too. I started to teach myself using a very good book called "Drawing with the Right Brain" (hope I have the title right). It really made me see things differently. (I was doing great til I came to perspective, and then I bombed out. Just couldn't see it)

The east indiaman in full sail is a pretty sight to see.....you see a lot of them in nautical art. Hindostan recovery...1795-1803 East Indiaman.....interesting link.

I think July 15th is under the sign of Cancer. Rembrandt's birthdate: July 15, 1606.

Mippy ~ If I can get through this one (big grin) I may try to see if I can find a copy of Schama's book on Dutch Culture (thanks for recommending it). Oh I love the Dutch windmills....would love to see your painting.

Rembrandt's brushes....I'm sure he had his favorite for whatever he wanted to show in his painting...most artists do. Rembrandt also used his thumb now and again. I'd loved to have been one of his many students. He also didn't have the luxury of taking paint from a tube or using already prepared gesso to prepare a canvas or board. I'd venture to say though that many of Rembrandt's painting will still be hanging in musuems and private collections long after some of the stuff you see painted today.

Ginny ~ my computer art works for me mainly because it's difficult to hold a pencil or paint brush in my hands these days....also the back gave out with outstretched arms to paint. I have some images on my website if you care to look sometime....everything I paint is in my imagination and it's for my own entertainment.

I use a lot of layers in computer painting and then merge them as I like for the final image (the software program I use is Paint Shop Pro).

JoanK ~ good luck with your hip replacement surgery....hope you can manage some time in here and have a speedy recovery.

Those of you who haven't had drawing lessons might have some fun with this.....tear a picture out of a magazine (works great with faces) and tear it down the middle. Then tape it to a piece of drawing paper and draw the other side you took away....then reverse the procedure. This is great for entertaining those grandkids when they visit.

Emma

ars : manual dexterity in the service of illusion

Interesting definition of art, huh? You see that Ars Gratia Artis also with the roaring lion I think it is of MGM.

Art for the sake of art.

Today we're looking at page 14, and here we have an explanation of the Artist in his Studio. Isn't THAT interesting. Before I read the explanation I'd say that the little artist is quite small in comparison to the huge easel, almost like a child. And his face is also like a child's, too? He almost looks like a child in dress up clothes or something. But then the plaster, that's some kind of perspective, isn't it?

Now to read what Schama says we're to get out of it….

Oh wow, barely bigger than this book turned sideways, what does he mean, the depth of the book?!?

Now Schama explains we're being "pleasantly had," and we have to go to the next page to find out why, so what was YOUR first reaction to that painting you can see on page 15? So we can see if you, too, have been "had?"

Currant eyes? Pretension? Gingerbread face?

Ooo it's a temptation to read on but first what was YOUR first reaction!?!

Discussions on books of art don't usually do well here on SeniorNet, but I'm sticking this one and I hope you all will, too. Ollie ollie oxen Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Mippy, oh bah, no scanner, is there a Kinko's nearby? Hahaha no that won't work either, well we'll have to imagine your watercolor windmill, then. Can you photograph it? I loved your thought here, tho, "Who would have looked at the entire picture and seen that detail if Schama had not highlighted "the fishtail triangle" of the broken wall?"

I don't think I would have, that easel dominates the room, to me, how about to you all?

hahah Joan, now SEE, your husband was a latent Rembrandt all this time!!!! Hahahaa

OUCH on the hip surgery, that sounds PAINFUL, hope it goes well for you! We will miss you!

Hahaha is that a backhanded compliment or what, first my phone is fine then you are a drawing klutz too! hahaahah but wait? "Drawing with the Right Brain?" What has the right brain to do with it? Now that sounds like what I have needed, (any part of a brain), I'll try to find it in B&N tomorrow and see, this is kind of exciting, actually. Right brain/ left brain, which one is the part that does math (that's the side I don't have?)

Mippy talked about paintings not looking like photos, which do YOU ALL prefer? Paintings which do or which don't?

Emmabarb, thank you for that super link to an East Indiaman, what a splendid looking ship. Impressive and absolutely bristling with GUNS! I think that's a fascinating link showing a lot of artifacts, thank you.

Emmabarb, I'll enjoy looking at some of your art, my ISP at the moment is so slow it takes eons for one page to load, hopefully this is just a local problem, tho it always rockets along at 30-32 kbs. Teaches one patience. Can't wait!! Thank you for telling us where it is.

Oh NEATO idea on the faces, how clever you are, I'll do that and scan it in here, you'll all gasp, no doubt, at the talent here? Hahahaa or at something. Hahahaa

I'm glad to hear somebody can do something with PSP, I liked the old 5 better than the new ones.

Well what is everybody's FIRST impression of The Artist in His Studio and why? What impression did YOU get from it?

Ginny - re Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. I think it's been found that right side of the brain is the more creative side, and the left side is the more analytic side. Of course, we usually have a balance, but sometimes one side controls more than the other. Hence, learning to draw by learning how to train the creative side of your brain to work harder, or to tap into the creativity that's already there.

Sorry you bogged down at perspective. I learned perspective in my college drawing class (taken when I was in my mid50s) - and I've always thought that this is a more analytical thing, but it works artistically. Does that make any sense???

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up here. I have been spending most of my time crawling under the desk to unplug and plug in my computer because we have had such horrible thunderstorms since hurricane Dennis passed through. Hopefully next week will be better. At least that is what the forecasters tell us.

Ginny, you asked me a question about your comment about Thomas Hoving. However I don't remember what you asked me and I am too lazy to look back for the question. I did want to make a comment though because I was at the Birmingham Museum of Art one day this week and Hoving's name came up there. I chimed in with," oh I have met him. Even had my photo taken with him." This led to my giving a plug to SeniorNet Books and my explaining how we met Hoving, had lunch with him and had him show us and tell us about The Bury St Edmunds Cross. To see those ophotos click on Some of the Photos from Books Gathering in New York

Will try to catch up on comments on this book by tomorrow.

Joank best wishes for your surgery. Hope it helps you as much as hip surgery helped my sister-in-law.

Joan Grimes

I AM SO MAD I COULD SPIT NAILS!

Six days before my hip replacement surgery, I went for my pre-op surgeon’s visit. He says he doesn’t want to do it because of other medical reasons, reasons I discussed at length with him two months ago at my last visit. At that time, he seemed eager to go ahead. Now he says I need to see a specialist. He wouldn’t help me get an early appointment, and the earliest I can see her is August 19th. Not only am I not having the procedure next week, I won’t even find out for a month whether they think I can have it at all, or whether I need to be in pain for the rest of my life.

It’s not that I put things off, either. My hip only “gave out” months ago, and I started this process promptly. The medical concerns all pre-date the bad hip. I don’t see any reason for putting me through at least ten pre-op appointments, and very complicated arrangements for aftercare, and then stopping to think about it at the last minute. GGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

The worst thing is my daughter, who is the only family practice doctor in her clinic, went through I-don’t-know what to reschedule her patients for two and a half weeks so she could come here from California and be with me. It’s unlikely she will be able to do it again.

I tell you one thing, if I do have it done, it will be a different surgeon!! Since I’m studying Latin on Seniornet, I’ll paraphrase the Roman satirist Martial:

 
I do not like thee, Doctor Chan 
The reason why– YOU CANNOT PLAN!. 
But this I know, and know I can, 
I do not like thee Doctor Chan!!

Happy after note: my daughter is coming anyway, though only for a week. And we are going to have a good time!!!

Second happy thought: now I can catch up on Rembrandt and the crumbling plaster. Back when I have.

JoanK - That's awful about the last-minute surgery postponement - and all your daughter's plans down the drain. I love your poem, but it sounds to me like Dr. Seuss ("I do not like you, Sam-I-Am!").

Joan Grimes ~ How wonderful...your trip to The Cloisters and having been in the company of Thomas Hoving. I would have enjoyed that....wish I could travel. Thank you so much for the Books Gatherings webpage.
Emma

I like the detail of the decomposing wall--it's the best part. I have a notion most of it was underpainting and he must have just started laying in some color. Someone said Rembrandt had as many as twenty underpaintings in his studio waiting for a client to show some interest before he finished laying in the color.
I think that would also explain his eyes as black holes....a half-paste would be glazed in to detail the white of the eyeball then highlighted with pure white for the reflection (that's my feeling anyway).

I'm not too technical these days when I paint, it kills the creative rhythm in me. Guess I'll never become a famous artist nearly 400 years from now like Rembrandt I just think it's amazing we're still talking about and admiring his work after all these years.
Emma

What a marvelous picture is The Artist in His Studio [page 15]. The perspective is so engaging. Is it foreshortening? I was going to look it up, but I can't find the book from an art course I took years ago [a common problem - I never can find anything]. I just wish to picture was larger [or my eyes better]. In these days of Hummers and McMansions, Rembrandt reminds us good things do come in small packages.

Huygens recognized Rembrandt's genius because he was a "Renaissance Man" versed in many disciplines. I find this significant in a world were a liberal arts education is scorned by many people.

Thank you Mary, for that definition, I am going to look… are there any books which will tell you if you are right brained or not? Any of those tests things?

I love to take that sort of test, but I know what it's going to say, hahaha before I take it.

I think it was Joan K who talked about perspective but now that I look at that Rembrandt painting to me the perspective is off. The figure looks like a child?

Joan G glad to see you here, I know that "crawling " syndrome, how I hate it. I've gotten to where I just unplug from the back of the computer, I think I'm wearing that out, tho.

Oh how wonderful on the Thomas Hoving connection, I'm so glad you told them. The question was of "ferocious or frightening intelligence" which I think he has, in spades. I will never forget that, either.

Joan K, I am so sorry, at least you have your daughter coming, tho, so everything has happened for the good and you really don't want him operating and botching it, I am sorry for your disappointment tho and as you say it will give us time to catch up here.

We're ALL going to have time to catch up, as I am going to be out of town most of this next week due to a series of Family Reunions (In Laws) so we are going to put Rembrandt on hiatus for a week in hopes that people can catch up and we'll start back on the 25th, bright eyed and bushy tailed, in this way more of us can catch up. It's sum—sum—summertime!

Emmabarb, would you have noticed the ruined part of the wall, do you think if Schama did not point it out? I think being an artist you would. I wonder if , is it true that every artist puts into a picture each thing for effect?

Is that easel the right height?

Seems quite high?

Wouldn't you get a sore arm?

Suec! So glad to see you here just as I'm going out, it's like a revolving door! Foreshortening? I have no idea but I like the sound of it, great post!

Oh I especially like your remark on McMansions, that seems to be the BIG thing lately, and even small ones now are so expensive, I had no idea the housing market had risen to the heights it has. I remember well our first house, boy I imagine no young couple would start out in THAT these days. Heck we had no furniture in the living room for…several years! Hahahaa

Another super point on the scorned Liberal Arts education, you are SO right and what's so fine about the Trade Schools, one must wonder? How DID we get in this fix?

Super points to ponder until Monday a week when I hope all of you will rejoin me here, I'll definitely be ready, lemonade in hand, it's summer, after all!!!

I'll see you all on the 25th but feel free to chat about anything connected with the first 14 pages or anything that has come up here till then.

Oh since you are talking about scorned Liberal arts education I have to throw in another tidbit from Birmingham Museum of Art. On the same day as the one that I told them I had met Thomas Hoving, we had what we call an art break. Our Art breaks are lectures at noon by an expert in some field. On last Tuesday the lecturer was an MD.--Yes a doctor of medicine. In fact he is in charge of clinical education at the University of Alabama in Birmingham's medical school. He spoke on healing in art. He made it clear to all that medical schools want people who have majored in something other than science. They prefer a person who is a humanities major. I already knew this because way back when my son was in college in pre-med we discovered that a humanities major was what the med schools preferred. My son who is now an MD majored in Religion and philosphy. My granddaughter who is going to be a pediatrician is majoring in Religion and minoring in French. Oh I have digressed from my story of Healing in Art. The lecturers who do our art breaks choose works of art from our permanent collection to illustrate their points. This particular DR choose two ppieces from our permanent collection. They both had doctors treating a patient as the subject. He talked very knowledgeably about the art. His wife is a docent at our museum. The One of the pieces of art was a neoclassical painting by Benjamin West. The other piece of art was a very small pre-columbian sculpture of a doctor treating a patient. i really wish you could all have been there. You can see the picture if you click on this link /Benjamin Westand then scroll down and click on Birmingham Museum of Art, Alabama. Then click on the first small picture to see Erasistratus the Physican. This is the painting that was discussed.

Joan Grimes

Ginny ~ my feeling about the perspective in the "Artist in his Studio" is.....why ? Why was the perspective so way off ? Perhaps this was a separate painting on each side of the panel ? Rembrandt was known to do that....a way to conserve when money was not coming in.
Enjoy your family reunions !

Joan Grimes ~ thank you so much for the link to Erasistratus the Physician by Benjamin West....it's fantastic and one I hadn't seen before.
Emma

Thank you all for pointing out that the perspective is off. I thought it was ME!! GINNY asked what is the first thing that caught my eye, and it was the figure of Rembrandt. he looks like he's standing in a hole.

I'm intrigued that the painting is in the Boston museum -- I get their catalog -- I wonder if they have prints. Have any of you seen it?

Well a bright good morning to you, and I hope you're all ready to go this morning with page 15!! I'm sitting here barely able to get to the desk which now sports two computers, two monitors and two keyboards, two printers, and not much else, have gotten a new system and am in the midst (and thought I'd be thru) of some redecorating, so will plug on, regardless hahaa.

The most surprising thing to me this morning is how much of this I remember. It's just as clear to me as it was when we left off and I wonder why that is? I am almost afraid to mention that unusual aspect of this discussion, lest it break the spell.

It appears in our little hiatus that we are now running 10 pages behind the date this morning, being now on page 15, so I'll continue to put the date in the heading.

Also in email a lot of people voted for the 1 page a day so that's what we'll keep.

This morning as on pages 14 and 15 we are discussing Rembrandt's painting in the Boston Museum of Art!??!! NO I have not seen it, JoanK, and they send me their catalog too, and I have never been IN that museum, but they do have the BEST catalog of any, I think. Have any of you seen the original?? But I'm quite intrigued by the size of it (the size of the book turned sideways) the description of it being full of pretension?!? And the statement that "For Rembrandt was seldom simple. He just took pride in looking plain."

That's quite a statement to make about anybody? That seems to carry a world of…..what DOES that say? Did that stop you in its tracks?

I was struck like many of you by the proportions in this thing, here's Rembrandt's studio as it appears today:

, and the easel would diminish anybody. Do you think that instead of being pretentious that Rembrandt actually might have been trying to say with those proportions what was important (art) and what was not (the artist?)

Or what was your own take on the photo's meaning?

"Make the largest possible utterance within the least possible space and you make a knotty little emblem; a mind-teaser, awaiting the work of wit to unravel its message."

Was this YOUR take on what was happening?

I also saw a rendering of Anne of Cleves the other day, the person of whom Henry VIII was quite disappointed in her in the flesh having viewed Holbein's "snapshot," declaring "I like her not!" And I'm wondering how much pressure there was on artists TO do likenesses exactly, after all, there were no cameras. And as we've seen some popular artists really did produce very flattering renderings, (everybody's a hero).

Joan G, how wonderful you were able to tell them about Thomas Hoving and what an enriching Art Break, I loved that and I did not know about the humanities major preferred in medicine, but it DOES make sense and thank you for sharing that Benjamin West, don't you LOVE things like that? I wish we could all have been there, too. One year at the ….jeepers I can no longer remember the museum, I believe it was the National Gallery in London, but am no longer sure, but anyway they were to have a warring lecture from two authorities on one piece of art, and I just happened by when it was starting, huge crowd, and it was magic. They argued with each other, each one presenting a different perspective of the same painting, the only problem was, as they warmed to their subject, there was NO place to sit down so we just all stood, the ambiance was really kind of neat, but unfortunately it's hard to stand for more than an hour in one place. I did so enjoy that "insider's" view and learning about that painting, I could do that every day, I believe. With seats!

Funny on the Humanities degree, when I was in school the preferred major for the CIA was Classics, and they were heavily recruited. I expect that is no longer the case, Classics Majors being so rare and all.

EmmaBarb, thank you, what do you think of my new theory that the artist was showing in his perspective what mattered, or….why would he exaggerate so? What do you think of Schama's ideas on page 15? Do you tend to agree or disagree? I had not thought of a split panel!

Joan K, we may have to go to Boston hahahaha, where is Professor Schama located, what city, does anybody know? Boy wouldn't you KILL to have him explain a painting, but, on second thought, that's what he's doing here!

I also got a fuzzy photo of this for you, much was made of the little stove in Rembrandt's studio and with the guard/ docent staring me down I took this in a hurry, but he'd need a stove, the room was high and I am sure it was freezing.

The funny thing is all the light? Here for instance is the view out the windows past the shutters, of part of the house (either next door or part of his, I think this is part of the museum but whether or not it was part then, I don't know) but I was struck by the color and the vistas

Now there was a plaque in the room which talked about his studio, and I scanned IT in here this morning and it was half a million ks or whatever that is, so that's a big no no so I'll copy it out for you tomorrow, but showing here the actual Studio (first photo) where he did all of his works!!

What are YOUR thoughts this morning on anything in the first 15 pages or the "pretension" or lack of same in this little painting no bigger than the book turned sideways and apparently painted over something else??!!?

A guilder (is that right?) for your thoughts!

And Welcome back!!!

Great to be back!! Rembrandt's picture is so interesting. Each time you look at it you see something new - "subtle pretentions" and "typical of his generation" says Schama. I couldn't help contrast Rembrandt's studio to Vermeer's [Allegory of Painting].

Ginny,

I agree with you about the painting when you say "the artist was showing in his perspective what mattered". I have never felt that Rembrandt was "pretentious". However maybe that is because Rembrandt was such a master and was able to accomplish what he wanted to do such as "just looking plain. Maybe I just prefer to think he was really that way rather than putting on a show of it. Also I have to remember that Calvinists believed in simplicity and things being plain. Maybe this was just catering to what would sell.

I am just typing off the top of my head here not really giving any thought to what I am saying. So it probably does not make any sense to anyone but me. So will stop this now .

Joan Grimes

Ginny,
How good to have you back in this room, although I suspect all of your personas were not really absent on SeniorNet!
I think I posted early in the discussion that Professor Schama was located at Columbia University, at least in 2002 when the program was aired, on the BBC, which was based on his 2-volume History of Britain.
Could you clarify what your question is about the photograph of Rembrandt's studio? Since it is obviously just a guess by a curator of how it looked, what could anyone say? I suppose what jumped out at me was that it was too neat!

Also, the many windows were even more important, to any pre-20th century artist, than they are today. No electric light! I cannot recall which artist painted a self-portrait with his hat showing the candle holders arrayed around the brim! Talk about a fire hazard!

So Glad your back - I've appointments today - be back later....

Here is what I think is a wonderful link to Rijksmuseum

Once in if you will hit -- Open the Rijksmuseum, The Masterpieces interactive special --

and then hit on the bottom of the page -- Specials --

you have a choice - both are interactive -

the dollhouse will give room by room detail that gives you a glimpse into how folks lived during the time of Rembrandt

however the painting is a wonderful interactive site - each part of the painting has a box that is a bit gray and when you click on that box the information will be shown based on the type of information you asked for that was listed inb list form along the side of the painting -

it is fascinating - it will give the names of the people in the painting -- the kind of paint and how it was applied -- what is happening in the painting that you may have missed -- on and on...

first a big box comes up that gives a broad understanding with a link at the bottom of the box to close the window -

once you close the window all these small grayish boxes show more easily and the entire painting is explained - this is wonderful - try it - you will be lost for an hour or more in Rembrandt...

Ginny ~ wow ! what a terrific photo of Rembrandt's studio in the heading ! It's good to see you back here posting. I haven't picked up the book since you left. That's what I will have when I get a new system.....how does on manage ?

I wish I had some idea why Simon Schama writes the way he does. I've read somewhere (but forget) that there was no correspondence or writings anywhere among Rembrandt's possessions when he died.
About the painting "the artist in his studio" .... I'm thinking it was just some painting to pass the time with Rembrandt and he was not a happy man at the time. Perhaps too someone tried to clean the painting (not knowing what they were doing) and destroyed a lot of the painting leaving nearly an underpainting or maybe even another painting on top of one on the wood panel. One would tend to do that if you ran out of something to paint on. I believe Rembrandt did most of his etchings and drawings after he went bankrupt and had to move.

What a terrific little stove...really unique with the embossed figure.
Emma

Good morning!
May I post about a little Dutch adventure we had last week? I'm slipping off-subject, mea culpa,
but it's tied to our book.
We stayed at a "Dutch Cottage" B&B last week, in Cooperstown, NY, in order to attend the Glimmerglass Opera. Our hostess, who was about my age, was indeed Dutch, and had many beautiful artifacts on display. She also had a framed copy of her family's coat of arms, dating back to 1561.
I admired a Delft tile, and she said it was copied from a detail of a painting, by Molenaer. She mentioned that many old tiles were made from copies of paintings' details, either in blue or in brown on white backgrounds.
Upon returning home, I opened the link in the header: Web Art Gallery.
Jan Miense Molenaer (about 1610-1668) painted the Denying of Peter (1636).
There was that "typical" smiling face of a Dutch man.
Without this discussion group, the identity would have been ... whooooosh ... right over my head. Thanks to Ginny, we are delving into art appreciation with a splash!

Did Huygens ever see the "The Artist in his Studio"? If so, what made him think that this minaturist - - - 25 x 31 cms is barely large enough for an envelope in which we place standard 10 x 14 inch photos - - - was one of the painters to take to Amsterdam ? I have heard it said : "I love the 'serious' stuff by Salvador Dali, but I can't stand the 'way-out' paintings he did.

Rembrandt was a consummate artisan in addition to being a passionate observer of life, and was one of the first to successfully blend the two qualities. He was able to use chiaroscuro, even in his smaller works.

I like to think that he did NOT show this painting to Huygens till after he had been 'chosen' to represent Protestant Netherland painters against the Catholic superstar, Rubens.

Brian

THANK you for all the welcomes back, much appreciated and glad to BE back, I really enjoy dipping once a day into this book!

Welcome back to all of YOU!!

Suec, I agree, I’m the same way, every time I look at a Rembrandt I do seem to see something new, I must admit.

Here, just to refresh everybody’s memory is Vermeer’s Allegory of Painting and you notice he’s seated, which I just had to peek on page 17 and I see Schama thinks Rembrandt was to do this small portrait of an artist in his studio and when he explains it, it DOES make sense? Or does it, those of you who paint?

Joan G, oh I think those are super comments and reflect your own background in art. I sort of saw it as perspective also, but that’s some huge easel, isn’t it? I was struck by Schama calling the figure “gnomic,” and that it is, I was struggling for the word, currant eyes and a gingerbread face HE says, I can’t see it that well and I doubt I would if I were looking at it, either!

Mippy thank you for Columbia U, I am not sure what I meant by the photo of the way they have the room up now, somewhere (out there) hahaha is my book from the museum where they explain the pains they have gone to, to reproduce things as they were.

I was thinking I guess that that easel would dwarf anybody? It did me and I’m not short.

(I am also thinking that that makes a painting itself, doesn’t it? I’m very fond of it actually_ hahaa)

On the neatness, I had not noticed. I guess with so many people traipsing thru the house and nothing roped off including the real Rembrandts, they had to make room and have SOME order. I am wondering if in fact if it WERE sloppy, like the Carl Sandburg House left EXACTLY as he left it when he died (literary sloppy not sloppy sloppy, but papers everywhere on every surface) if it would have actually given the right impression.

At any rate, it’s not as neat as it looks. He had a

mammoth collection of curiosities, a real cabinet of curiosities as we’ve said earlier and they are

everywhere and not particularly neat in the lower shelves

(Whoops, wrong close up, was trying to show you the books, will have to wait for that tomorrow!! But you have to remember these rooms are not gigantic and there is not much room to even walk (and get around the docent/ guards) so…let’s find out!!! We cam read the museum site and the book and about it and if we can't find out we know we can always write them, they answer very nicely!

Hahaha Hats o fire huh? Hahaah Love it. He had PLENTY of light in his studio!!

Barbara, thank you for the fantastic link to the equally fantastic Reijksmuseum! Oh boy oh boy, worth the wait and I can’t wait to spend more time there. I loved it, half closed as it now is. THANK you I may put that one in the heading! I do see several periods of Rembrandt AND am waiting breathlessly for the Vermeer to come up!

Going to spend a lot of time here, not all because of my extremely slow ISP!

Thank you Emmabarb, and don’t you LOVE that photo, I’m quite struck by it, actually. Goes nicely with the colors, too. WHAT? You have not picked up the BOOK? Well I’m glad we’re all back (I did not either and I still remember it all) and can persevere here! Hahahaa

Are you getting a new computer??

Oh interesting point about the possibility of the cleaning and that he was not doing this at his serious height, good point!

Yeah I loved the stove too and if she had not fixed me with a fishy eye, thus engaging my own guilt mechanisms, (why, heaven knows) I’d have held the camera still, there’s one in the book, hopefully I can FIND the book, but this way you know I was there. Haahaha

Well I wish you’d look at Mippy, she is LIVING the book here!! Well done, immersing herself in Dutch Bed and Breakfasts and Dutch things and Delft tiles and Moleanar, whoever heard of him? Off I go to look HIM up! (That IS a super link in the heading).

Oh I like him, that Painter in his Studio Painting a Musical Company gives us yet another look at an artist of the day (he was 1630’s, and it says Baroque?) Now have a look at THAT one if you all get a chance, where IS the painter? He also seems to be drawing on a table which Schama suggests Rembrandt did with our own portrait of an artist!!??!! (That is, if that IS him off to the left? I am not sure?)

Thank you for that Mippy, what an adventure, she was doubtless impressed that YOU knew so much. Did you ask her about the WWII Delft tiles commemorating the Allies freeing the Netherlands? I would kill for one. That one with the woman and child (I hope I have the country right) standing on a cliff in the wind, looking out to sea, waving at the approaching planes would tear out your heart and they said on TV they were common, I can’t find them anywhere on the Internet!

“The essence of a quiddity - -“ Oh me too, Brian, I absolutely loved that, loved that entire sentence,

It was a quiddity: the essence of the matter; the something that made things (in this case shilderkunst, the art of painting) just exactly what they were. And it was also a quiddity in the other sense in which the seventeenth century used the term: a subtle provocation; a riddling road to illumination.

All I can think of today is quiddich, and I’m pretty sure they are not connected, I absolutely love that word!

That’s an interesting point you raise, but why would you like to think he had NOT shown it? I guess there is no way for us to know, or is there? I am sorry if what EmmaBarb reports is true that he left no writings, oooo and Schama asks the question himself on page 22 (she said, browsing for dates) but I’m not going to look ahead. Maybe.

What do you all think of Schama’s style here, in that he introduces something for you to think about and THEN explains it later on??

And Oh I hate to say this but just look at the heading and then turn to page 560, just for a second and then don’t look. And there’s Rembrandt’s House on page 459, just a quick peep?

I had to pick UP the book to quote from quiddity, do you think we all will finish this in our lifetimes? Haahahah It’s so HEAVY?

Well if not at least I now know more than I did 16 days ago and that’s the truth, and for some strange reason it’s sticking? Thanks in large part, to you all. So tomorrow we’re on to page 17.

That chiaroscuro thing is interesting, when you see the paintings in person they don’t look all dull and gloomy like some of them do in the book? All dark? They look kind of rich?

All right now, Reader Alert! Schama says on the bottom of page 16,

To begin with there is that painting within a painting; the same rectangular proportions, but magnified into an overpowering, even forbidding presence at the center of the composition.

Hah? Did YOU see that? Where?

Er….

Ginny ~ my son tells me every time I mention getting a new computer.....he'll believe it when he sees it (ha....I've been thinking about it for some time now I understand a new Windows version will be out next fall.....oh dear....should I wait or what).

Did this little computer painting last night before I went to bed click here if you care to look.
I read some of the book today Having a bit of a problem holding it up to read....propped on a pillow on my lap and having to use magnified glasses.

Mippy ~ thanks for sharing that with us about Moleanar and the Dutch things. I have a fondness for Delft tiles and such.

Schama's style of writing: the more I read the more I have to think about....but that's good for me.

Emma

You might be interested in this one

http://www.bluedelft.com/6bludelwoodt.html

Brian

Why, EmmaBarb, that’s absolutely gorgeous, and you did that with a computer? Amazing, thank you for bringing that here, I love it!

And thank you Brian for that beautiful tile of the shoemaker, I bought one over there and if I can FIND it AND the book WITH the photo of the books on the floor hahahah I will bring them here also. Thank you!

OK OK nobody is answering, do you all see the “picture within a picture” that Schama talks about with the Portrait?

And what about this?

On page 17 he says:

It would have been improbably, if not actually physically impossible, for Rembrandt o have set his tiny panel on a standard easel, and, bent forward, clutching his brushes and palette, to do the fine work exhibited on its surface. He is much more likely to have executed the painting seated, and at a table, as if it were a drawing, proper up against the folding support, rather like a library bookrest, as can be seen in the mush later sketch of his studio in Amsterdam. So this is not a picture of a painter catching himself in the act.

Now THERE is an electric statement!! What do you THINK?

“This is a picture of in-sight.”

Wow?

I would not have gotten that from this, would you?

As you read over the description of the “Drones” in the lower 1/3rd of the page, did it make you wonder anything?

I loved this, “the demonstration of his credentials is, literally, beyond it.”

I love that. In other words? He’s the “real thing,” and this proves it!

But did YOU see what Schama does in the painting and more, do you agree?

“This is a picture of in-sight.”

No, I would not have gotten that from this picture. I see a dreary, surprisingly empty room, honestly painted. But one thing that Schama points out: the edge of the easel, the edge of the canvas that we DON'T see, glows!! In this dreary room, magic is being created. The creator almost looks like a little elf -- too small compared to his easel, badly proportioned, fantastically dressed.

Hendrik Willem van Loon wrote "The Life & Times of Rembrandt van Riij" (1930). I'd like to find a copy of this book in the Library to examine it......have a look at the cover.

Ginny ~ yes was done on the computer, appreciate the nice comment.

Painting or drawing for that matter is best done with the board or paper propped up. A very tiny one you can get away with it on a table top or bookrest. The objects tend to get distorted when looking down instead of straight on. Sketching is often done in a book or tablet on one's lap though (I do that).

Perhaps a bit theatrical Shakespearian like.....the "Artist in His Studio". It's told Rembrandt loved to dress up in costume and collected all sorts of hats and items. I also understand he'd rather collect objects and art instead of books.

Emma

Emma Barb,

I love your beautiful painting. Thanks for showing it to us.

Joan Grimes

EmmaBarb it looks like Amazon.com has two used copies of your Hendrik Willem van Loon The Life & Times of Rembrandt van Rijn

Joan Grimes ~ thanks, your comment means a lot to me.

Barbara St.Aubrey ~ appreciate the link. I have a collection of art books, may add this one.

... to the wonderful sentence by Schama:
changing his face ... Monday, beggar; Tuesday, roughneck; Wednesday, tragedian; Thursday, clown;
Friday, saint; Saturday, sinner. But this is Sunday... it has no eyes.

Did any other artist delve into his multiple alter-egos to this extent?
And why would he put in an artist with no eyes?
Is he making a joke?
Does the artist hide within his many of his paintings?
What do you think?

Ginny,
The reader will get to the excellent opinion of Schama on p. 21, but is it against the rules to hop to that sentence?

Typing this in a hulacious thunderstorm so if I disappear, you’ll know why! Hahahaah JoanK, no not only did I not see it but I CAN’T see it, can any of you SEE it?

It’s SOOO dark. One minute he says the painter has currant eyes in a gingerbread face and then on page 18, he has “no eyes.” Well heck , I can ‘t SEE anything.

What is this maulstick he’s supposedly clutching? Where is he clutching it?

Can any of you find a giant version of this online so we can actually SEE it? I’m going to take it (gasp!) and make it lighter and bring it back here! GASP!

Hahahaha

Well I can’t SEE it.

Now Joan has pointed out the glowing also, and Schama has pointed out the robes, the significance of the dress. At first when I read what he said I said oh come on, he was last seen in a collar of armor but the more I read it the more I believe he’s right.

What do YOU all think??

Oh Emma, interesting, the objects tend to get distorted with looking down? What’s the theory of looking straight at an easel? I am assuming one stands at an easel? Why could one not sit??

I agree, Joan G I loved it too, and in fact thought of putting IT in the heading but I guess we need to stick to Rembrandt like things, but it sure is pretty, EmmaBarb. Do we have a place on SN where we display these things? So pretty.

Maybe somewhere else in the Books, Guys??

OH Van Loon, he’s a great writer!! I did not know he wrote about Rembrandt too, thank you! And thank you for the link Barbara.

Mippy, I wish I could SEE if the painting has eyes. He looks to ME as if he has eyes, he’s got something on his face. I tell you what, let’s get a BIG one all blown up and lighten it and THEN maybe we can see!

Oh hop ahead to page 21, tell us what he says!

Ok here again we have a reference to the dark stuff, Huygens, a “brother-in-gloom,” does that mean that perhaps Rembrandt’s art has NOT darkened much with age but is actually dark and gloomy to begin with or? OR?

All right, there appears to be quite a controversy, (who knew?) among scholars and artists as to WHAT phase of the painting the artist has depicted here.

Those of you who know art, what do you think?

Those of you who don’t, what do YOU think?

Let’s blend our thoughts here and talk about this?

I’ll say, peering at the gloom as I am with a magnifying glass, that he appears to me to be…..hmmmm I can’t tell. Just starting? Stepping back? Finished and dressed to show that?

Guilder for YOUR thoughts, although I love talking to myself, especially in the supermarket where it attracts all kinds of attention, it gets lonely sometimes. Hahahaha

Ginny,
if I have time to get on line!
First, everyone ought to look at page 20, the enlargement.

On page 21, Schama hits us between the eyes (sorry, Kevin in RAW gets me going on the word-play)
and tells us what he, the author, thinks:

...Rembrandt knew that nothing in the conventional repertoire of artist's eye-language was adequate to this moment, and certainly not some glassy-eyed staring. So he opts instead for the blackout to convey a sense of creative reverie ... waking sleep ... a kind of a trance ... (or) ingenium (or) inventio.

Ingenium (in Cassell's dictionary) is: nature, natural quality, character; mental power or ability or genius.
Inventio means just what it sounds like, an invention.

Ginny, one can sit at an easel. What's needed is that the painting/drawing surface be close to vertical as you look at it. This way, what you draw on the surface will be closer to the way you see it in life as well as on the paper or canvas. Try looking at a magazine picture upright in front of you, and then hold it horizontal, but on the same level as your eyes. It's quite distorted, with the bottom of the picture much larger than the top. It's an optical illusion.

Actually, when sculptors design a statue to be viewed from far below, they have to make the top larger than it would be if viewed straight on, so it'll look "right". It's all a trick

and magic.

Ginny,

A maulstick is a stick used by painters as a rest for the hand while working .

Joan Grimes

It's kind of hard to imagine why Rembrandt painted "the artist in his studio" the way he did without any notes from that time about it. Schama's intrepretation is as good as whatever research he based it on. I'm stuck on p.17-18 but will move on because I cannot add anything.

In 1632 Rembrandt signed his named without the "d", both in "the Anatomy Lesson", and in the Pellicorne painting.....and, possibly many portraits done that same year. [Interesting ? From the "Magazine on Art" -1901- owned by me. This is my prized art book in my collection.]

My maulsticks are a couple of round wood sticks carpenters use for dowells that I picked up at the hardware store. I cannot see the maulstick in the reprint of the painting in the book ?

Ginny ~ You know, if the canvas/board or whatever are very large then you have to stand to reach areas you'd not be able to reach when sitting......many times a scaffold is required.
When you draw or paint something laying flat on a table surface the perspective is more noticable in a portrait than a landscape where it may not make any difference. I can't explain it very well....let's see....things closer to you are larger and the further away they get the smaller they get. The board panels I painted on were small enough that I could carry them where I wanted to paint and I was able to sit in front of the easel.

Mary Z brings up an excellent point on perspective....take a look at the 14'3" (I think) marble statue of Michelangelo's David....his head is huge as is his hand by his shoulder because you're looking way up.

Emma

Looking at page 20: Wow, those eyes are like hols in his head going right through to his mind.

Ginny,

You asked about a place to display art on SeniorNet.In Our Arts and Entertainment folder we have such a discussion for Computer Generated Art . Emma Barb is the DL in that discussion and another one for Paintings in that one Painting/Drawing with All Kinds of Media

WE also have SENIORNET ART GALLERIES where we display the work of our SeniorNet Artists if they allow us to do so.

Joan Grimes

HO! Now those ARE holes for eyes on page 20, and we can see quite an explanation on page 19 of what eyes reveal and how important they are in painting. I didn’t know they were supposed to be the first things on a face to be painted? Is that still true? You ought to SEE my head done next to the one in the book on page 19, from the 1600’s!!!! Pitiful is not the word.

But who KNEW hooded eyes meant gravity? My fat eyelids now can LIVE! Hahahaha

Thank you Mippy for the “creative reverie” of the black holes, is that what you all got out of it? Hahaahah

So THAT’S what ingenium looks like! Hahahaha No wonder I haven’t seen it, well what do you all think? That seems a tad far fetched, to me?

(not Mippy’s stuff, the idea that those black holes reveal reverie?)

Oh Mary with a super challenge and that’s just what I did, I used the current issue of Southern Living page 103, the one with the Cast Iron Chefs article. Oh she’s right, have any of you tried it? (THAT’S what’s wrong with the mirrors of the world and my FIGURE! Hahahahaa)

What fun that is. I’m going to experiment with all angles and the upside down thing we were talking about!!

Oh interesting about the sculpture, too, I just saw a marvelous one in Naples and the HAND seemed huge to me, I bet that’s why, the whole thing was gigantic, it’s the one of Hercules, (I think)….

(why travel if you don’t know what you’ve seen? Hmmm?) hahahaha

Apples, the one with the apples behind his back, I’m sure it’s Hercules. And of course David by Michelangelo has a giant hand, too?

Thank you Joan G for the maulstick, the name would seem to indicate a weapon!!

EmmaBarb, that IS interesting that he signed his name without the D, does that Magazine on Art (sounds fabulous) say why?

I can’t SEE the maulsticks either, can nobody find an enlargement? My ISP is so slow it’s hopeless for me.

I think if I had to STAND for long periods of time with my hands reaching forward I’d have some KIND of back problems, do artists complain of this?

Thank you Joan G for the great references on SeniorNet where we can see the creations of our very talented SeniorNetters, I think that’s great. I was thinking of using EmmaBarb’s painting as an illustration for our Books area, still thinking!

I’m going over there and see more!

Now page 19 has some STUFF on it and I had to read it twice. I LIKE sitting down for 4 minutes a day and reading something enriching and something I can learn from.

Now this time he says, The task of the master was to educate instinct.

Now do you think that’s so today? In any field? IS that the task of the master/ instructor?

Or not?

And then there’s the fabulous depiction of Dante’s Charon with “red wheels of flame about his eyes.” One thing you can say for Schama, he’s well read, his entire book is chock full of fabulous references. Don’t you find it interesting also that van Mander referred to the eyes as the windows of the soul (he was not the first one, was he? Or was he?) and the messengers of the heart.

Do you think that? I do. That is I think you can tell an awful lot about a person by looking him in the eye. The eyes reveal SO much, do you think si> All you have to do is look them in the eye and you sort of know who they are, if they’re sincere, etc. But do you agree? And how on earth would you paint goodness or kindness in an EYE?

After closer examination in "natural daylight" you see everything, I see the maulstick, palette and several brushes in his left hand--one brush in his other hand with paint a light color pigment on the tip. There is even a crack in the plaster (upper left) similar to on the right of the painting.
I'd be interested in how he painted himself "the artist" (doesn't appear to be a mirror reflection of him) in a great outfit with silver buttons and all. Rembrandt ? What were you thinking ? Did he ever imagine after all these hundreds of years we're still wondering.
I still feel the painting was in progress, or was cleaned improperly after all these years. The painting style was fairly dark background to begin with and over the years darkened more from dirt and dust. Some people having these paintings in their possession even varnish over them thinking they're preserving the paint, when in fact, the varnish darkens the painting more. Then someone tries to remove the darkened varnish and in the process removes a lot of the color pigments of the painting.

Ginny ~ the 1901 art book doen't say why he dropped the "d" in his name. He also used his monogram.
I had severe back pain from sitting in front of a painting too long. It's sort of like sitting in front of the computer monitor for hours at a time
Emma

Ahhh, finally, the graphic of drawing eyes, on p. 20.

Let's hear from the artists, on how you make an eye.
Me? I seldom draw people, knowing my limitations.
But I do know about the dot of white, the reflection of the world.
And Schama hones in on this omission in the Artist in his Studio.
... lead shot, peppercorns, blackened o's ... that absorb light ...
Black holes!

But, are you taljing about this early self portrait in whicht the eyes are so shadowed that they appear to be black holes?

self portrait darkness with eyes

I blew it up in photoshop and the eyes are there. . . but perhaps the image under discussion is of another one. . . .Claire

which R. introducaed and which was copied by others became known as THE BROWN GRAVY school of painting. . .just a note from my old art history class. . . . Claire

I agree with you Ginny, it's nice to spend a few minutes reading a page and digest it. Schama writes so well and goes into such detail. The importance of the eyes was explained thoroughly on page 20. On the next page Schama tells us why Rembrandt gave himself "black holes" for eyes. At 23 Rembrant was aware on some level of his "awesome, gift of God." Wow!!

I'm HERE!! I'm struggling with some graphics to show you, new computer, doesn't want to cooperate, I do want you all to see this.

Much to say, am up on the reading and I agree, too, suec, WOW~~ Do you love this? Back in a bit, still struggling with these doggone photos, meanwhile, Everybody, the August 1 date threw us all off, we're on page 22!!

Good to see you here, Claire, no that's not the one it's the one in the Portrait of an Artist in his Studio and if I can ever get my new computer to cooperate, I'll show it! hahahaha Lightened!!! GASP!!!

Thank you for that super quote, too.

Hi, sorry I’m running late but have made some enlargements for you and Claire (thank you Claire) has brightened up my own photo so you can see the background so here, for your interest are some enlargements and GASP GASP SACRILEGE, some brighteners.

My son and DIL just left and they had some souvenir books from Washington DC and the National Gallery of Art? And there is a Rembrandt in there, in fact it’s the windmill, so the next time I’m in DC I think I’ll go to see it, didn’t Pat H say she planned to see it? We’ll have to hear about it when she gets back.

But here we go, first off here is Claire’s lightening of my own photo in the heading, now you have to realize I have ruined her work with the larger photo, you don’t KNOW what a time I’ve had. She lightened it so you can see some of the clutter, thank you Claire!

My photo of Rembrandt’s Studio, click to enlarge!

And here is the Artist in his studio himself, click on this one to see the larger one all brightened up, aren’t you surprised at what IS bright?

Rembrandt: the Artist and his Studio MUCH (Gasp!) Lightened, Click to Englarge!

The Artist and his costume much enlarged and lightened, click at your own risk! hahahaa

So what amazed ME with these is what IS really lighter than not and that itself seems to me to be a technique I had not noticed, amazing, huh? (Or is my own technique in brightening so awful it’s not amazing?) hahahaa But the entire painting was EQUALLY brightened, nothing was brightened at the expense of another part, just a lightening of the whole thing, interesting, huh?

Now today we are on page 22, still talking about The Artist and his Studio, and Schama’s reflection on whether or not Huygens (as Brian said) knew what he had in these two young artists. I liked the bit on page 22 where Durer said a great artist can do more in a small work than something somebody else labored on for a year, or words to that effect. In other words, I guess we can say talent IS talent, right? Like agents refer to their writers, “the talent,” don’t you think that’s odd? I just heard that last year and I thought it was peculiar!

And again, as if Schama knows we’re reading this page by page, he puts ANOTHER teaser at the bottom of page 22 and it’s no less than Pliny! I am going to get up early and read that tomorrow, hhahaa.

Whoops and page 24 is dated 1998!!!! This thing is an adventure, even tho we’re taking it slowly, see next post!

(Did you happen to notice in that enlargement of the figure of the artist alone the delicacy of the hands? That left hand? The delicacy of the right hand? That’s amazing!!

I simply cannot find the pictures of his books but they appear quite cluttered, stay tuned, one wonders why one takes photos if one can’t find them? Hahaaha

Emmabarb, “natural daylight,” why on earth did I not think of that? It would have saved me a LOT of time. Thank you for that. I did not know that varnish darkens the painting more, good grief!

Well I would imagine so, it would hurt anybody to work at an easel a long time, we need a new syndrome, Computer Back! I sure have it! Hahaha

Mippy, didn’t you think it was interesting about the verdigris in the eye? That one stopped me cold. So you don’t do people? You did a windmill, do you do landscapes or still lifes? Oh good point on Rembrandt’s OMITTING the reflection of the world, I like the way you put that!

I caught the black hole thing but not the omission of the rest of the world, love it.

It’s kind of hard to remember we’re talking about the 1600’s, a time a lot of people don’t know much about, much less in Holland, I sure didn’t.

Now no one has mentioned the little engraving on the bottom right of page 19, and I’m wondering why it’s there and…does it show how the artist might have held his….but isn’t that a palette? Or is it? Is he actually drawing EYES? Can any of you see that? I believe that’s a page of eyes?

It’s interesting to know also that in the 1600’s those illuminated manuscripts which were still being produced (they are sort of an interest of mine) were often farmed out to art studios after the script was done to fill in the art required, sort of a hand assembly line, the particulars are fabulously interesting. I recommend Christopher de Hamel on the subject, his books are fabulous.

And that’s the same time period, exactly, as we’re talking about here.

Do we have, today, in 2005, any sort of Art Explosion or Patronage? Do we have a State or National Artist or something? If not, why not?

GINNY: I think the drawing on page 19 is a detail of the one he discusses in the text where there is a student sitting in the corner drawing a page of eyes.

I've lost track of what page we're on now it's August 1st. Oh, okay, I see it's page 22 for today (thanks so much for including that in the discussion title).

Ginny ~ that's terrific to compare what you lightened. That's amazing the light coming into his studio from the high windows onto his canvas.

About the size of the painting in Schama's book....I can't help but wonder that he was referencing the "hard-back" book rather than the paperback which of course would have made the painting larger.

The hands ....ah the hands....some artists can draw them and some manage to hide them somehow. Rembrandt knew how to draw and paint hands....telling more about the person in the painting than their eyes.
Emma

Edit:
Playing Darts with a Rembrandt......legislation would list works on a National Art Register and have substantial fines for damage or destruction of works on the register.

perhaps it is a trick of the light but it looks to me as if he has the big toe on the right foot on the wrong side of the foot. . . picky picky. . . .I find it hard to follow without the book. maybe the library has it. . . . claire

Claire, I thought that at that time shoes had no right or left orientation but were built exactly the same for the right and the left foot. Our eye is not used to that.

Todays some baby shoes are made that way.

Thanks for the lightened enlargements - they are great. It much easier to see all the detail.I never thought of Huygens as a talent agent - but he was. Other people's views add so much to reading the book.

p. 19 - Click here to see the "Color Olivi" in it's entirety. (Wish I could find the English translation.)
The keyword is "after" denoting it's a copy....Jan Baptist Collaert after Johannes Stradanus. I don't know why Schama thought to include this ?

EMMABARB: Thank you for the painting. It is very interesting.

"I don't know why Schama thought to include this?" He wanted to show the young student practicing drawing eyes to reinforce his point that that was one of the first things an art student learned.

EmmaBarb, isn’t that amazing that light? I had not seen that before making it lighter.

Oh interesting on damaging art. Why on earth do people want to do that? There was some fabulous vase that some nut case smashed to smithereens but they glued it back together.

Hahaha on the big toe, Claire, it looks like he has feet like I do, do try to get the book, I think you’d like it?

BUBBLE!!! Welcome, and what a bit of news, I did not know that, they must have had major bunions, how interesting!!! Stay a while?

Suec, thank you, I’m glad you liked the enlargements and I agree, I’m getting a lot out of this one, I know I’m slow getting in here but I really enjoy sitting down for an Art Break a Day, call me crazy!

Emmabarb, thank you for that link, now is that or is that not a studio with the artist as artist? I am not sure what Schama is saying on page 22, but I’ve brought some other examples.

I thought it might be interesting while we’re looking at the illustrations in Professor Schama’s book (so right, Joan K! It IS a page of copying eyes, I now can see it!) to see some other examples of artists at work in a similar period and in a period before this.

Schama says on page 22 that among the Dutch painters of 1629 it was unusual to see the painter as the “personification of painting, itself,” and so for contrast I’d like to show some other artists of the same or earlier periods, and I’ve scanned them in to this and the next post.

But first, what is the “dazzling line that defined the edge of the panel,” which Schama says could have been Rembrandt’s allusion to the “most famous game of one-upmanship in history,” and which other artists would recognize with a happy shock of recognition?

On page 23 he defines PLINY as the the author of the story of Apelles of Cos I have never heard of Apelles of Cos, have any of you?

Never heard this story!

The King (Alexander the Great?) GAVE to Apelles, the subject of his painting the King’s mistress Campaspe.

Jeepers.

Then he tells the story of Apelles and Protogenes.

OH boy did you love that Nulle dies sine linea? No day without a line? Have you read Stephen King? He says anybody can be a writer if they will write, I forget, 9 pages a day? That’s all? So this Apelles left his famous line as a flourish.

Did you love this story? What did you think of the subject matter of the famous painting that perished in the fire? Presaging modern art? Are modern artists familiar with these ancient stories when they draw their lines and blocks, do you think?

What’s a disquisition?

On Page 24, what in the world are “acquisition police” and “monograph patrol?” haahah is Schama losing us? I notice we’re now in 1998 and New York City?

Oh I love the description of the genius or artistic temperament. “antisocial fits of melancholy and even madness.” I’ve been reading the Maugham discussion and I can see similar descriptions. So I guess we need to ask DO you believe that great artists DO have sort of outrageous temperaments and is it possible to have genius and not act like one? Hahahaa

HOW do you think a genius acts?

And what an interesting tidbit about Rembrandt Day and the Nazis! This is quite interesting, to me, what do you all think?

So here, for your interest is the first of several illustrations, this one is

a bit earlier than our time, it’s from the 12th century. The apprentice, Everwinus, sits practicing his flourishes in decoration while his master, Hildebertus, turns from his “beautifully appointed workdesk,” to curse and shout at a mouse running off with his cheese. (Christopher de Hamel, Scribes and Illuminators It reminded me of the guy practicing eyes.

Well that one did not turn out as clear as I'd like, let's try some more!

Here

we can see a really startling thing, to me, it's from Copenhagen, from the Kongelige Bibliotek, in Jonathan Alexander's book Medieval Illuminators and shows a secular artist (the hat gives that away) drawing a head, possibly a self portrait, with "his paint dishes on the lectern beside him. It is significant that the illuminator places himself in the tail of the initial "A" of the Apocalypse, once again underlining the connection between the portrait and the prayer for salvation at the Last Judgment."

Here is a wonderful illustration from the Alexander book and from Florence, the Biblioteca Riccardiana, showing books hanging up for sale.

This is late 14th century and shows a member of the Guild , a druggist, grinding powders "whilst above him books are hanging up for sale."

Alexander says entire specialty artists Guilds formed and by the "mid-fifteenth century, the book trade in general was highly organized and must have employed large numbers of people. Very large numbers of manuscripts still survive from this century, and many of them are illuminatesd with large numbers of pictures."

He says earlier of the Guilds that

There were "limners, " "turnours" (drawers of initial letters and borders), " and "notours," (respondible for musical notation.) There are all sorts of illuminations of patrons visiting studios and buying books.

Here in the last one we can see an artist, seated, copying script (note the very small lectern with the original copy above his desk). Most of the scribes who wrote these exquisitely penned words could not read and thus many mistakes were made, they were literally copying script. Each of their different scripts themselves are works of art, however. Here from Christopher de Hamel's book Scribes and Illuminators, is an illustration of Jean Mielot, scribe and translator to the Dukes of Burgundy. He copied out this manuscript and is shown here doing it in 1450, for the library of Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy 1419- 1467, and I think it gives you a wonderful view of the artist seated at a small elevated lectern.

So from these few examples and there are tons of them, we can see that the artist and scribe, presented AS artist was common a couple of hundred years before, so why NOW in Rembrandt's time, was it not normal to see the artist AS artist? Was it the Dutch temperament? What's described in the middle of page 22 is not what was happening in the several centuries before, what happened, I wonder?

The dictionary gives: a discussion (or speech) on any subject

Ginny, is it worth trying to find the Latin version of the Pliny work?
I assume it's Pliny the younger.
It's a good story, but I wonder if anything like that really did happen.

I don't know, you could give it your best shot, I bet you can, it might be fun?

Thank you for that definition! For some reason with my new computer my Webster's Dictionary bar on top of the screen here has a conflict with my new Norton Security and I can't get my definitions handily BECAUSE all of my dictionaries are STILL packed up with my brain as I'm moving into and out of this computer room Lazy lazy Mary here.

It might be fun to read it in Latin?

Ginny ~ yes, amazing how much the lighter part is prominent in the studio painting in your images. Rembrandt had a way of directing you to the part of the painting he wanted you to see.....also highlighting a part (as in the edge of the painting on the easel) to bring it forward.

Thanks for those illustrations.

I did find it interesting about Rembrandt Day on the day of his birth. It was never celebrated again was it.

I never heard of Apelles of Cos and came up with nothing in an Internet search.

Never heard the story about the line. Not sure I'd appreciate anyone drawing a "line" across my painting when I wasn't looking. If they did I'm sure I'd take it out or paint over it.

Schama Schama.....some of the words you use and it's hard to stay focused sometimes

Emma

Here are a couple of links to look at.

http://www.1stmuse.com/alex3/apelles.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apelles

He painted Alexander the Great many times, and one of these paintings hung in the temple of Artemis in Ephesus.
It showed Alexander holding a lightning that seemed to come out of the canvas.

An anecdote tells us how Alexander once saw one of these paintings of himself, but did not think it resembled him.
When Alexander's horse neighed at the sight of the painting, Apelles said it understood art better than its owner.

Apelles also painted scenes from mythology like Venus Anadyomene and Calumny, personifying Ignorance, Suspicion and Envy etc. He is also credited with having painted the first self portrait in the world.

Brian.

is the source, not the younger. Big difference; I'm glad I didn't search through hundreds of letters by
Pliny the Younger, which are on line in Latin.
Thanks for the links, Pat.

Schama's jump to 1998 made me blink!
Apparently a few art critics commented on Rembrandt's genius, but
not having taken any art appreciation courses, I do not understand the significance.
Is Schama saying he, himself, is a superior art historian?
Or is the point that "Artist in His Studio" says that Rembrandt is a genius?
Is that single painting so very distinctive?

When I read the Plinty story, I thought of Barnett Newman's "zip" paintings in the late 40s. I understand Newman was quite the intellectual and he may have been aware of the story. From the late 40s on, Newman mad a career of painting lines [and a few sculptures] in various forms. From what I remember was a very spiritual man - always seeking to express the subline.

Well THAT is just fascinating! Thank you, Pat, for those links and Brian, I had no idea and the first portrait painter! Amazing.

You all may know that ancient Greek paintings are very rare. This summer I saw one at

Paestum in the south of Italy, it's the famous DIVER.

This diver as you can see from this site: Ancient Greek and Etruscan Art , is one " of a few Greek wall paintings that survived, is the Tomb of the Diver, c. 475 BC in Paestum Italy, from a necropolis (city of the dead) of Poseidonia (The older Greek name of Paestum). Scenes of a Symposium, males in love and Kottabos players and a diver. A normal tomb was a rectangular hole cut in the rocky ground sometimes lined internally with stuccoed travertine slabs."

Here is the tomb:

and in the next post you can see some of the figures, including a figure with a krater which is definitely Greek.

Here

you can see a splendid representation of the Greeks dining, note their recumbent positions, that's thought to come from the Greeks.

Here is the figure with the huge Krater, which also would have figure painting on it and they are exquisite:

It's quite something, that entire complex, it's spectacular and they do say it has the finest Greek temples anywhere including, some say, the mainland of Greece. That one above is so fine it's jaw dropping, several inside also, another layer of colums that are so perfect you can't catch them on film, it's just almost indescribable, and there are THREE of them, all different, just standing on the plain.

Page 25 is quite interesting, if for nothing else it shows how the fashions of art change! Was Rembrandt this or that? Was he a conformist or a radical? Was he….why do so many people spend so much time trying to figure it out? I think Durer said it best, and that's something ELSE coming from Durer!

EmmaBarb, I don't know about Rembrandt Day again, that would be interesting to find out, and it's also interesting to see your comment on how Rembrandt directs us to various parts of the painting!

Hahaha are you beginning to see some "hyperbole" in our friend Schama? Well we sure are learning a LOT! Hahaha

Super questions, Mippy, thank you for finding out which Pliny it was, and I don't know, I DID sort of get the feeling that Dr Schama also is an authority but I'll tell you one thing, I had never heard of that little painting and I won't soon forget it?

What do the rest of you think, I think Mippy has asked a good question. IS this that great or IS this an example of Dr. S knowing something others don't and choosing this as a battlefield? (That may not be precisely what Mippy meant!) haahahah

Well my goodness, Suec, there's another one I have never heard of, Barnett Newman! Thank you for that , so he did lines too, that name is somewhat familiar to me in another context but I may be thinking of another Newman, I'll look him up!

What a cornucopia of KNOWLEDGE, I wonder what Dr. Schama is like personally? Are there any audio tapes of him anywhere that anybody knows of? I'd like to hear him speak.

You ought to SEE the crowds lined up to see that diver, it's unreal!

Glad it was our old friend Pliny the Elder -- those of us who read Pompeii got to know him, and like him much better than his son.

I couldn't help chuckling at Schema jumping into the "ring" of academic disputes (although I hope he doesn't do it too often -- they are usually of little interest to those outside of academia).

more interesting to me is his earlier question --genius. Who knows what it is?

Certainly not me!! In his later discussion, he talks as if genius was the same thing as doing something NEW. What do you who have studied art history think of that? Is it possible to be a genius painting within an established tradition? Does it have to produce something new, or can it carry the old to new heights?

Can we try to reach our own definition of genius, or is that too ambitious?

As far as geniuses being mentally unbalanced, there are certainly many examples (or are there? maybe I've just swallowed the myth?). But some of the poets we are reading in the poetry class seem to have led conventional, middle-class lives (or did they? Maybe I just don't know enough about them).

when I studied portrait photography a certain kind of lighting was called Rembrandt Lighting. . . the shadow side the cheek and forehead and eye lighted so that the nose didn't stand out as a separate shadow. hard to explain. . . It would be interesting to look at his portraits with that in mind. . . . claire

I Just did look and there is quite a variety of lighting effects but this is the one I'm referring to. . . . Portrait of an old woman

Claire ~ I just found that website. Don't you love the way you can enlarge the images as much as 200%. Hope you're doing well.

I enlarge most things to two or three hundred percent and sit back to read. eyes give less trouble that way. Hope you are feeling good and making art and all those good things. I'm not going to continue with this right now. ..eyes are a problems and I'd rather read a book in good light without the glare from the screen. seeya , claire

Schama gives an impressive performance in this product of "Rembrandtolatry"....click here for historians of Netherlandish art book review.
Rembrandt had become Rubens' "doppelgänger"....he began to dress like characters from Rubens' paintings.
Emma

From the link above: "Schama synthesizes others' rigorous researches and technical studies; the careful student should read the works credited in the footnotes (copious but not complete) before citing this text".

Oh oh!! This sounds like a tactful way of saying something not too flattering about Schema!!! It seems unfair, since it's so vague, no one can refute it. In any case, for complete ignoramuses like me, Schema is just fine.

Interesting to think of Rembrandt imitating Rubens. I'm glad he moved beyond that -- not that I don't like Rubens, but I like having them both. They will make an interesting contrast later.

GINNY: I don't know how my post became embedded in yours. Did we post at the same time?

The names struck a chord in my mind, but I could not place the story.
After a little research - I remembered - - -

Leander lived on one side of the Hellespont, and Hero on the other,
Leander was a fine lad, and Hero was a priestess of Aphrodite,
The two fell in love, but were unable to consummate the relationship.
Leander swam the Hellespont each night - attracted by the light in the tower,
lit by Hero to show him the way.

Difficulty stood in the way of the two lovers - Apollo desired Hero, and - according
to the play of Christopher Marlowe - Neptune desired Leander.

The outcome in a gambit involving the Gods was predictable.

Neptune called up a storm which blew out Hero's light, and caused Leander to drown.
Hero, when she saw his lifeless body wash up, dived in, to drown also.

The story was potent enough to inspire both the writers ( Vergil had a try, as did Marlowe later ) and the painters, ( Rubens, Rembrandt and doubtless many others. )

Who can now say that a page a day is "too slow".

Glad I bought the book, it's an interesting reference volume. Something I would get into if I needed some clarification. I've always remembered the term "photographic lighting" with regard to Rembrandt's works. In the old days of photographic modelling, the photographer would move the spots around to give more interesting highlights on his pictures. eg,backlighting, upspots and so on. Sometimes I see that aspect on Rembrandt's paintings, especially the portraits. Colkot

"Something had happened to Rembrandt. He was no longer quite so peculiar."

I love Schama's writing!! After pages of telling us how great the self-portrait is, he finally says it is a little odd.

Now we see Rembrandt trying to conform, so he will get this job. We also see the start of discussion of the political machinations of the day. I admit when I first read the book, they completely confused me. Hopefully this time they will make more sense.

We also see more tantalizing references to Rubens, the painter Schama will feature as Rembrandt's opposite (once R. stops imitating him).

Now THIS is an interesting page!

Competition, I can understand this page!

GREAT points, Everybody!

JoanK, sure we can try to give our own definition of genius! What do you all say it is, you are all genius…es? Hahaahaha

Do you agree it’s 99 percent perspiration and one percent inspiration? I don’t. It’s never done me any good hahahaa

Claire, thank you for the term Rembrandt Lighting and that very striking illustration of that old woman. I have a very slow ISP and as it slooowwwwly revealed brown and more brown I was thinking dark again so dark, when lo and behold there she lurched out of the dark, very startling, I thought!

EmmaBarb , didn’t you think it was strange that Rembrandt had become Rubens' "doppelganger"....he began to dress like characters from Rubens' paintings? (But that's not the same thing, hold on, IS it?) Just a little? Or did you take it as imitation being the sincerest form of flattery??

Thank you for that link, I agree on the “panache” the article says Schama has.

JoanK, I totally agree with this, it’s unfair to us (because we don’t know) AND Schama, “be sure to read the footnotes,” good grief! Scama is more than fine for me, I’m doing well to hike thru a page a day, hahaha I can’t believe we’re read 26 of them? Hahahaa

On the embedded post, I don’t know why those do that (maybe I’m imitating you or something trying to be like you? hahahaa At any rate, I don’t see it embedded but sometimes the software burps, it’s nothing that we’ve done ourselves). I have seen it, at other times, tho.

Brian thank you so much for the legend of Hero and Leander, that’s something you hear vaguely about but never seem to realize Hero’s a woman!

I totally agree, it’s all I can do to keep up with one page hahahaa

colkot , so good to see you here! Thank you for the concept of “photographic lighting.”

JoanK, I was beginning to suspect the same and you nailed it: “After pages of telling us how great the self-portrait is, he finally says it is a little odd.” Hahahaha I’m suspicious of him now, every time he says anything I brace self, ok ok what’s COMING up!

Hahahaa

Deems told me that MANY pages of Rubens are coming up which is a good thing, I know NOTHING about Rubens either!

But now on page 26, I do think this is a bit harsh: “Visitors to Rubens galleries, when they pause at all, tend to cower before the immense, obscure symphonies on the wall….

Visitors to Rembrandt come close as in greeting a cousin.”

What does that mean? Have we (you?) ever seen a Rubens? What did he paint? I am thinking we had one of his in the Latin class, in Dr. Grote’s Perseus, I’ll run look. COWER?

The Rembrandts I have seen you have to get close to (if you can, for the crowds) to see the different stuff like the sleeves, the stuff on there, it’s quite amazing.

But NOBODY gets closer than people do to Vermeer. Vermeer drags people from across the room.

Let me go see if we don’t have the Paragon of Antwerp or can you all find any photos on the Internet of his works.

That WAS a little strange, Rembrandt dressing in clothes that Rubens painted in his paintings, don’t you think that’s ODD? I am thinking that maybe this is Schama here and not entirely true? Or? How can we tell? Dressing like characters from his pictures…what a strange paragraph beginning on the top of page 27.

Well I’ve looked and looked in our Latin files and the Perseus paintings, I see Titian and every other artist known to man but not Rubens, what did he PAINT?

You know, after looking at the painting above and Claire's link to the old woman, do you think Rembrandt was obsessed by NOSES?

Link to Paintings by Peter Paul Rubens

THANK you Joan, good heavens look at that! I recognize a lot of them (from textbooks I don't believe I have ever seen ONE in person), have any of you? And there are a LOT of them in Spain, I wonder why? I expect we'll find out. Thank you!! Now when we read about Rubens we can see the very ones!

"do you think Rembrandt was obsessed by NOSES? " Schama is obsessed with Rembrandt's nose. Here he calls "the root vegetable nose". When talking about the first picture, he complemented R's nose (can't find the quote),

Gotta get off here quickly as Our daily thunderstorm is here.

Joan Grimes

GINNY: a large chunk of "Rembrandt's Eyes" is about Rubens: pp. 72- 190 with dozens of his pictures. Schama will use him as a contrast to Rembrandt, art, temperament and life all very different. Flip through now if you're in a hurry, or wait. But by the end, we will know Rubens.

I recently read Schama's Citizens, which I thought was the definitive book on the French Revolution. I had tried to read Carlyle's book on the French Revolution and didn't get very far. Now I think I can probably try Carlyle again. I also have Schama's books (3 volumes) on the history of Britain. At any rate, I've become a Schama fan.

Interesting, though. I recently met a pretty intelligent woman who is an art teacher at the university, married to an art professor. So we have to assume she and he know a lot about art. What little I know about her, she seems quite bright. I told her about the seniornet Rembrandt page a day with Schama project. She abruptly put it down rather quickly! She noted that Schama was a historian and not an art history authority. She couldn't give credence to any book he would write about art. I shut up and slunk away, LOL.

I don't really think her wrong, but I think the difference is in academics and ordinary people trying to expand their knowledge. Schama has a gift for drawing people like me in and teaching them about history, about art, about whatever. I am not stupid, but I have no background to speak of in history and certainly not in art. I think he's a genius at this. I suppose if I had devoted my life to art history I might turn up my nose at him like my friend. As it is, he has already brought me countless hours of pleasure and enlightenment.

I've doodled eyes and noses, actually studied them and for a long time I trouble with noses. they have a geometric form but are different on everyone and the angle at which they are viewed as if from below or above etc. makes them look still different. I have sketch books full of such things, not for a class or a purpose just DOODLES.

Rubens is very rhythmic, his forms all but dance across the surface and I love them although my art history prof, Karl Wight didn't at all. I have seen Rembrandt "in the flesh" at the Los Angeles county museum long ago and was particularly taken by the MAN IN THE GOLD HELMET. there were GLOBS of gold on it. . probably all paint but possibly gold leaf.

Rubens is highly decorative and Rembrandt is plain. . .also more interested in faces. I had occassion to discuss this a while back with Justin who taught art histoy on a college level an knows much more about art history than I. But somehow it seems that I SAW more

If I ever get thru this book I want to read Schama's book on art and riches

Religious Works of the Old Dutch Masters.....Rembrandt, Honthorst, et al (click on each one to enlarge). Rembrandt wanted the life of the Honthorstian----honor, fame, money, houses, carriages, golden chains.
I'm searching gÒÓgle for the Rubens (1577-1640) book "The Philosophy of Art in the Netherlands" and the author Hippolyte Taine (what kind of name is Hippolyte anyway ?).

Ginny ~ I did not think it was strange that Rembrandt was dressing like characters in Rubens' paintings. Personally I believe it was more a form of imitating or copying from the artist he greatly admired and why else would he also purchase many of Rubens paintings.
By-the-way, I've always admired Rubens' well-nourished rosy cheeked females in his paintings. I'm sure you have heard that being well-nourished in Rubens' day meant you had wealth. (I do believe with my curvy-figure I should have been born in his time...hahaha).

I saw many of Rubens immense paintings while visiting Alte Pinakothek, the famous Munich art museum. They were magnificent to say the least and I had to stand back from them to take everything in. I think two of my favorite Rubens are "Daniel in the Lions' Den" and "The Last Judgement". Emma

Quite a few years ago, I remember seeing a Rubens at the Metropolitan in NYC. It was a gigantic picture and it took up the entire wall. As I remember, it was a family portrait of Rubens, his very young wife, and the rest of the family. It was an immense symphony - colorful, alive, and joyous - a celebration of Reuben's happiness and prosperity. Looking at Joan's great link - it may have been the Garden of Love. Not far away some Rembrandts were exhibited - they were smaller, darker, somber, and I guess I found them restful and comfortable [like a old cousin].

CHAINS! Everything is backwards in Rembrandt's time or things have changed an awful lot, now I finally understand why those Renaissance men wore so many CHAINS, golden chains, I am sure there is a song about that, but all I can think of is "silver threads and golden needles," and that certainly does not apply?

PLUS the eyelid thing. Remember when they said that heavy eyelids denoted seriousness of purpose or something? Deepness of soul? And every time you turn around in 2005 people are having Blepharoplasty, or elective cosmetic eyelid surgery. The idea is not to have tired looking eyes, or to look old, I guess.

I like my eyelids, they are hooded or maybe you'd say fat. Hahaah At any rate I'd look like a startled turkey with skinny eye lids, maybe I was born too late?

Hahaha

hahaha Joan K, Schama is obsessed by noses, too, maybe that's why he's drawn subliminally to Rembrandt! Hahaaha Thank you for the head's up on Rubens, I expect to fully know everybody who lived in that day when we finish and I feel the need to go look at my photos of the trams again, I really love Amsterdam.

Scamper, welcome back!! I can't believe you've read all those Schama books, are they like this one? Every detail explained in depth?

WOW on your friend saying she was an historian and not an art history authority?~!?!?! And she wouldn't give credence to ANYTHING he wrote about art?

Holy cow. How can we find out what art historians (is there a difference in them and historians) think? More opinions? Thank you for bringing that here and hoping to entice her in, I do wish she had come, we could use her point/ counterpoint view!

Claire how interesting, I wish you had gotten to finish that sentence, must look up the gold helmet one and I loved your saying how Rubens flows, I'm enjoying the link Joan G put in here and looking forward to our own Rubens in the book but WAIT WAIT!!

I forgot! I see NO (this is getting to be repetitive) gold chains in either of the Rembrandts on pages 27 and 28!!!!! Do YOU? Where are they?

EmmaBarb, is Hippolyte Greek? I'm thinking Greek. I loved this, "Rembrandt wanted the life of the Honthorstian----honor, fame, money, houses, carriages, golden chains." Well I have to say it does not sound unpleasant? Hahaah

I did NOT know that being well nourished in Rubens' day meant you had wealth, is that where the term Rubenesque came from?

??

Boy he'd have loved me. Ahahaha

Oh the Alte Pinakothek, in Munich, naturally I did not make it there, I only stayed in Munich a week, jeepers. Love Munich, must go back, I'll go look up Daniel in the Lion's Den, I seem to remember it from my youth as an illustration in a book of Bible stories.

My goodness, Suec, that was positively lyric, love the way you write. I am sure I have seen a Rubens but am not sure where, some of them have (I've been peeking in the book as well) lots of flowing motion. I do remember seeing the Four Philosophers but of course did not realize Rubens was one of them, not only are we reading a page a day we're learning a new fact a day.

So the chain thing is the reason why i the Lords Chamberlain wear chains and such, too? Do you think?? I'm going to see if I can find some depictions of Thomas More and maybe Henry VIII for tomorrow, with chains.

Have chains, will travel, do YOU see any chains on pages 28 and 29??

I don't know what Prof. Schama meant about a vegetable nose ? Many of you are probably familiar with this artist.....speaking of vegetable noses, check out the art of Guiseppe Arcimboldo, "The Marvelous". Weird and grotesque at first glance but it fascinates me when the paintings are examined up-close. The detail is amazing and what an imagination Arcimboldo had. He was a 16th Century Italian portraitist to the Hapsburg courts in Vienna and Prague from 1562-1587.

Ginny ~ where have I heard that term Rubenesque ? hmmmmmmm ....it has to be referring to Rubens' figures in his paintings. He would have loved me as a model for sure (Ha). I seem to recall reading somewhere that Rubens was the only artist painting nudes in that period in time ?

The gold chain thing is interesting. One of my friend's returning from a trip to Germany gave me a gold chain that you wear around the waist and the minute I came out of the pool with all that clorine all the gold was gone Emma

Are we still discussing chains? In the self-portrait on p. 29 it's hard to see the gold chain,
so I clicked on the web art gallery link in the header.
Look at the 1634 self-portrait; those chains sure are shining again! This painting jumps ahead a
few years but, to me, the style looks similar.

Ginny,
I'd like to participate more frequently, but I need a little direction,
or suggestions, of topics, since I never took any art appreciation courses.

and they are so long. I"m sorry friend but I skip it all now that my eyes hurt and I have to limit their use. how about something bold in purple Bubbles uses it to good affect. . sigh . . . the only way I can read it is to copy it and past it into the COMPOSE changing the color the style the size. complaining as usual... .claire

in opposition to Rembrandt who concentrates on faces and hands Rubens just used the face for an excuse to wallow in everything else. . . .a symphony as opposed to chamber music, see this

Equestrian portraite more emphasis on the horse and surroundings than the person who commissioned the painting. He was much earlier than R. dyng in 1640 something before R was born. . . .a different kind of art was popular then. My instructor hated him. I love him. . . .Claire

Oh shoot it's forbidden you'll have to go to OLGA'S GALLERY and the index there to see it

Direct link - - - http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rubens/rubens42.html

Brian

http://www.wga.hu/art/r/rubens/41portra/02lerma.jpg

Brian

Archimboldo: my initiation to Archimboldo was a jigsaw puzzle. I bought a series of online jigsaw puzzles of works of art, and there was one of his. When you have to put it together piece by piece, you can really see how clever he was in working flowers and vegetables into a human face. Not great art, perhaps, but a lot of fun: especially in a jigsaw puzzle!!

Well isn't that gorgeous? Thank you Claire for bringing our attention to it, a symphony it is, and thank you, Brian for those close ups, also! I actually copied that last one. I love that horse, and it almost looks Spanish with that mane curled like that, almost looks like an Andalusian, doesn't it? Fascinating, I guess we will learn more about Rubens and any Spanish influence when we get there.

EmmaBarb, thank you for the Arcimboldo, I have seen it but did NOT know it was done in 1591!!! It IS interesting!

Mippy, yes that's a super painting showing chains, here it is again, in a lightened version, but you sure can see them, (and don't they look like the ones below? They look exactly like the ones from Henry VIII's time!!! See below! Thank you for finding it:

And here, before I forget, are a couple of shots of Rembrandt's House and they are taken from one of the books in the gift shop, called The Rembrandt House Museum Amsterdam. Here are

some of his pots and things, and now I need to go to another post because SN rules say you can only have 3 in one post so follow the Dutch crumbs here…..

Joan K! THAT'S where I've seen it, in a jigsaw! I am an absolute fool for jigsaw puzzles and that is EXACTLY where I have seen it.

I try to buy one everywhere I go. They are invariably in these GIGANTIC boxes that I can't then get back home, especially if traveling by train. So I had to leave one behind that I did desperately want at Neuschwanstein because it took all my energy to climb up the hill to the castle. Of course normal people took the horse drawn wagons up, but naturally I could not bother. I have always wanted one since.

I DO have a treasure jigsaw tho, it's of Hampton Court Palace, Henry VIII's chapel, and it's real wood and a real jigsaw. The illustraion is to die for, the box was small and inside it the pieces are in a drawn bag of velvet or something it's almost too pretty to get out!

And here

is a great one showing that same sort of easel that we saw in the medieval manuscripts I put in earlier!! Don't you love all the COLOR in the house tho. The book says:

Rembrandt van Rijn lived and worked in the house that now bears his name from 1639 to 1658. The interior has been restores as closely as possible to the way it was in his day, with his studio as the highlight.

Claire, sorry I keep trying to remember I wish you would just adjust your own computer to see it in black and white but I'm trying! Just holler if I forget.

Mippy I am not sure what sort of direction you would like, but I am game??!!?? Initially we said we would discuss a page a day, sort of casually. I assumed that meant that if we're on page 29 today we can discuss anything in the first 28 pages, and I can't really change the heading each day for a new question, unfortunately, I simply don't have the time. At the same time, tho, I'm anxious for everybody to have a great experience. I'm only reading one page a day right along with you, so I'm not sure (I have no background in art) I have enough overview to provide some insight, but I am GAME!!

What sort of things or questions might we look for or try to watch for in this discussion?? What are some of the topics that you all would like to look for as the book unfolds? I'm sort of a novice here, what are your suggestions?? Let's organize ourselves here!

Page 29, I think is quite interesting, both for Schama's explanation of what's behind the little verse criticizing Rembrandt (how sure are we that's right? Or that the reason for writing it was right? So much scholarship, how much IS Schama here?) Another new thing for me today is the concept of the "Friendship Portrait," jeepers. I have never heard of that, but there must have been a time when life spans were considerably shorter? Or less certain? Of course they HAD no cameras!

And then Rembrandt was to do a profile portrait of the Princess of Orange and that reminded me AGAIN of Holbein, who of course preceded Rembrandt by…what…100 years? Yet note this:

In this picture, which comes from the book Henry VIII and His Court by Neville Williams, this un-credited portrait of Catharine of Aragon in her youth shows clearly chains of gold, I'm finding it fascinating, again, that this was at least 100 years before, and on women. I am wondering if in fact the Dutch would have known of this fashion and where it came from, I wonder if Schama has any notes on the chain issue??

Catharine of Aragon: Click to enlarge>

She was quite pretty in her youth, wasn't she? And Holbein made quite a life painting portraits, did he fall when Henry VIII disliked his likeness of Anne of Cleves? I can't recall. And there are a LOT of Holbein portraits, showing chains, but are they the SAME concept of chains, which Schama has related to Rembrandt's time? Here are a couple: Sir Henry Guildford, 1527 by Hans Holbein (the younger, I think) and here's Sir Thomas More also by Holbein and you can see chains but perhaps of a different concept? One of them is a Knight of the Garter, but I am not sure which came first, the Garter type of thing or the chain concept? I am not sure? But Catharine of Aragon sure has them on? OR?

Now at the bottom of page 29 he speaks of the Hague, where I have not been. Have any of you seen it or the Gothic Knight's Hall (if still there?).

What else on page 29 or in any of the other 28 do you find of interest??

Claire ~ so sorry you're having problems with your eyes and the computer screen. Sometimes when a post is light if I highlight it then it makes it a bit easier to read (for me anyway). I just love that horse.

Ginny ~ I can't imagine having to grind my own pigment to paint.
The chain is really heavy isn't it ? It almost looks as if it's being used to hold on the cape.
I did that climb also to the Neuschwanstein castle. When I was nearing the top I got a terrible charley horse in the calf of one of my legs and didn't feel like I could go on any further.....but I did. On the way down we stopped at that restaurant and had a draft beer and a sandwich. The castle was one of the highlights of my trip to Germany. Your jigsaw puzzle of Henry VIII's chapel sounds lovely.
That chain on Sir Thomas More is something....wonder what all the "S's" meant.....

I didn't read today since I had company.
Emma

I'm not clear which of the two portraits on these two pages has the chain. I can't see it.

Anyway, I don't see where R. has become "less peculiar". It seems huge cheek to give himself the symbol of an honor he hadn't gotten. But he seems to have gotten away with it (Maybe no one else noticed the chain either).

Ginny ~ There is no need to change the header, or put questions there.
Reading the various posts works just fine.

I think additional background on the history and culture would be useful but, so far,
search engine quests regarding The Hague have not been very informative. Here's an example:

The Hague

On page 30, we are introduced to Gerrit van Honthorst.
If you don't have time to examine all of his work in the Web Art Gallery, in the header, do look at the 5th one down, The Dentist (1622). Talk about drama! But who would buy such a painting?

WOW! It would give me nightmares. I found it by clicking on H, then Honhorst. It's the sixth one, after some of christ.

I like the way Schama implies, without saying, that H is a poseur of little talent. True?

I don't know. the preferences don't give us a choice in either place but the dark blue works just fine if you don't mind.

now about those shelves full of pottery at R's house. this one

pottery

You know I've potted for umteen million years. I felt right at home viewing thos. . pots stored everywhere in and out on open shelves. makes for fine clutter but dust catchers as well. . . . claire PS in a technical class we ground our pigments with water and then added the medium which in this case was egg tempera. It's not hard you do it on a piece of glass with a palette knife. .

thankyu Joan I looked for THE DENTISt AND I liked it very much as an example of the Baroque style. lots of rhythm in the composition and the faces of the watchers are very involved. the subject may not be pleasant but the handling is to my way of thinking just great. the image is hugee. too see the flow try looking at it smaller if yo can do that.

the dentist

Claire

... moving on, p. 31 mentions the famous Inigo Jones, a key architect in British history,
and his creation, Whitehall:

Inigo Jones

Mippy thank you for that link to the background on Inigo Jones, and for the link to the Hague. My goodness I have BEEN to the Hague!! It's where…the United Nations has a headquarters? I took a tour a couple of years ago while staying in Amsterdam and saw it, for heaven's sake. Right on the coast. I had no idea it was so old. I notice it says they have the works of Rembrandt there, as we have mentioned before.

But here's something, in the Hague, Madurodam This is the official site, it's in Dutch and takes a while to load but once it does, just pass your mouse over that first picture?

Isn't that something?

Do you all know about Madurodam? It's a scale model tiny village representing all of all of Holland, and it's fascinating. I've got some incredible photos of the tiny scale buildings.

You could stand and look at the trains alone and the boats. I am thinking tho I can't seem to find it, that Madurodam was built in honor of a son who died and it's just amazing. A procession of bishops and choir move into the church, boats sail, construction machinery builds, a wedding takes place at a palace, and you can see the most amazing things in miniature. Outside of the park there is a dyke bursting and a Dutch boy with his finger in it, holding it back, it's just amazing.

Here are some Photos of The Hague and I remember this too, the beach, it seems to be right on the sea, very businesslike place as I recall.

I thought Whitehall was very impressive myself and I think nothing but the banquet room is left or I may not remember clearly, (do any of you remember, seems like it was a palace but nothing is left now but the banquet rooms?) But it's very impressive, no matter what is left.

And thank you for The Dentist mention, Joan K and Claire for the link. That's quite good, even tho I had to close it before they got to the oral surgery part, (and I agree who WOULD buy that? Seriously?) But it IS all you said it was. Wonder why he chose THAT subject?

EmmaBarb, you too at that restaurant~! Hahahaa well of course I had to walk up to Neuschwanstein, didn't get a charley horse but was such an idiot that I delighted in walking faster than the two draft horses pulling up everybody else, at first. But guess who got passed on the way up? Hahahaa I am sure you can't imagine who was blowing like a steam engine at the top, from being out of breath? Hahahaha And THEN at the end we had to run down the exit because the BUS was leaving. This was a day tour out of Munich and they were very firm that if you were not THERE you were left. But on the way out I got caught in the kitchen, , in a Japanese tour group and didn't have time to stop at the gift shop!?! Running down the mountain. Good doggone thing I was younger. I couldn't do it today, the bus would have to depart sans moi. TODAY I would get that puzzle on the top!

I loved it, didn't you? He was such a purist and romantic, I meant to get a book on him but of course had to dash down the mountain (in the rain). Mad King Ludwig.

Claire, then just for you I'll alternate between this brown which you said you liked and the navy, tho it really makes me feel trapped. Ahahaha Don't you know the feeling tho, it's as if somebody asked you to paint in brown and navy only. (this is my painting) I once asked my former cello teacher why he didn't paint his handwriting was SO artistic and he said "this is my art." And of course he was wonderful on the cello, too bad I'm not.

Good point JoanK, (I don't see the chains either, on either one) and on the peculiar, but even in 2005 people exaggerate their honors to get what they want. Maybe back then they didn't keep track, no newspapers (or did they?) or television newscasters, I guess you literally had to go on who you knew.

At any rate, here we are on page 31, and 30, apparently boy I should have read this BEFORE I went to Amsterdam, PLEIN has a whole new meaning than what I imagined, that's ONE for page 10~~

Ok now and here we have two new artists introduced, van Dyke and Honthorst, who I have never heard of in my LIFE, have you all ? That's another NEW BIT OF KNOWLEDGE on page 31. Oh gosh and here come the Borgheses, I'd like to read a book on them, too. Everything is Borghese? And good heavens I had to read on a little bit on page 32 and we can see Honthorst whose name has certainly not gone down in history (and I have to ask why not? Why not?) got more when he left England than Rembrandt received "in his lifetime!"

Sic transit, huh?

Who today has heard of Honthorst and who before the movie and stage show Amadeus had heard of Salieri? Not too many!

So we need to read on, on page 32 and see if Schama tells us why nobody knows him now, or we'll need to do some research. Why is it fame eludes some people and embraces others? Joan K has asked the $64,000 question: I like the way Schama implies, without saying, that H is a poseur of little talent. True?

What do you all think??!!??

Who today, what "artist" today in any field, do you think will be famous 500 years from now?

Ginny ~ I climbed up the stone steps but I forget where they came out...somewhere near the top. I was fascinated by the entire castle.....and of course all the swan carvings and paintings, etc. Thought it was amazing how modern the kitchen was. I think that was his 8th castle he had built.....of course he died before Neuswanstein was completed. I did purchase a book while there on King Ludwig. So many people there said he and Wagner were lovers. The lake at the bottom and the snow-capped mountains in July were all amazing. I'd go back in a minute....if it wasn't so far away.

Prof. Schama's book could be used as an art history textbook. I wonder if anywhere they in fact are using it. So many artists I've never heard of......love it !

Mippy ~ thanks for the link. I didn't know Inigo Jones identified Stonehenge as a Roman Temple and 'restored' it accordingly. I'm discovering so much.

p.362 (if you care to peek)...self portrait with gold chain. Rembrandt also painted Saskia wearing a gold chain......dressing up ?

I am familiar with van Dyke but Honthorst is new to me.
Emma

I had never heard of Honthorst either. I think his paintings are very interesting from those I have found on the Internet.

Joan Grimes

Me, too, Joan, and he certainly lived in splendor, didn't he? We can see on page 32, "swaggeringly elegant house, servants, horses."

EmmaBarb, hahaa on the steps. I was so caught up with his romantic side, finally marrying his love but he was such a "Mr. Monk" character that his…what sort of sleigh was it? Could only be taken out at night? Crystal? I must get a book on him, he was fascinating, and, I thought, a little sad. I need to go back to Munich!

Oh thank you for the hint on page 362, yes there he is with chains and they look VERY like the ones in England 100 years previously. I wish I knew what commerce there was between the two cultures.

But on page 32, Professor Schama does it again! Another artist, Van Dyke, no less, I have heard of him for the beard, aren't those pointed beards on the chin called Van Dykes?

But he says, "His most important sacred work, a St. Augustine in Ecstasy….."

Ask yourself!!!! IS a picture of that painting on that page? Is it in the BOOK? Is that not MADDENING or is this a symbol of a great teacher who makes you go off on your own and find stuff?

I can't wait to get to page 33, it appears they are imitating each other!!

Well you can see why Honthorst would be famous, he took people and made them look like gods and goddesses, handsome, beautiful and noble. Maybe it was their idea of fame and permanence? We're still looking at them 500 years later?

One time I decided to have the children's pictures done in chalk, it was a whim. There was an artist in the mall doing children's portraits and I thought oh why not? I found out why not.

My youngest, at the time the most agreeable of children, pitched an absolute fit for some reason. I can see him now, crying, did not hold still one millisecond, it was something else, like having a tornado on the end of your arm, so the result naturally does no more look like him than one of these images in the book does. So DID that one make it to my walls? Er….no, and if I had paid a fortune to somebody to paint my likeness, I believe I would rather look somewhat nice than all my warts and chins exposed! Not to mention being portrayed with my face and Diana of the Hunt. Ahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Vanity vanity.

Can you believe we've read 32 pages? Hahaha I'm somewhat perversely proud of us. That's 31 more than I would have read alone, tho I do love the book in your company, I would not have gotten thru it by myself.

More than Rembrandt ever got in his life? Typical Rubens treatment. Schama is really hurting for our guy,Rembrandt, who, it seems, always got the short end of the stick? We'll see.

How about the image on the last page of Charles I marching to the scaffold under the paintings that he had commissioned? Is that the part that you said was left, GINNY?

Yes, Joan, I had to do some digging, and for once I remembered something right! hahaaha (Always a problem with me). Had to look up Whitehall but it is as we surmised, nothing left but a Banqueting Hall.

Here from the Spiral Guides (London) done by AAA (and if you all have not seen their European Travel Guides, you want one, they are unbelievable. I don't think they should be forgiven for revealing the Hotel de la Place du Louvre in Paris to the public because now you can't get a room there for love nor money but anyway…

They say of "Whitehall," (which is a busy street) from which you can see Downing Street and the Cenotaph, but of the old Palace of Whitehall:

The Banqueting House is the only remaining part of the Old Palace of Whitehall, formerly the monarch's official home, which was destroyed by fire in 1698.

It was built by the great architect Inigo Jones in the early 17th century, and includes a painted ceiling by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens as its decorative centerpiece. The ceiling was commissioned in `1635 by the king, Charles I, who paid the artist $4,300, an astronomical sum at that time. This and other paintings were all conceived as paeans to Charles's father, James I.

It was from a window of the Banqueting House that, on January 30, 1649, Charles I, tried and convinced of high treason following the defeat of Royalist forces in the English Civil War, stepped on to the scaffold and faced his executioner. As he went to his death, branded an enemy of state, he remarked, "I have a good cause and a gracious God on my side."

Whitehall www.hrp.org.uk

Photo of panels from the ceiling (1629-1634) of the Banqueting House are from the DK Eyewitness Travel Guides

Ok now on page 33 we have two new terms, Iconography and "after Anthony van Dyck." Does anybody know what is meant by that term "after?" We can see it looks almost like a copy, in the style of, but was THAT a type of painting then, kind of like Bach did his inventions and Mozart his… what do you call it when it's a take off in music on the original in the style of somebody else? I have a super version of Happy Birthday somewhere in a million "styles of…"

"after"?

I wonder if it just means "in the style of" or whether it means it was done in his workshop by one of his pupils. Remember Schama said of Honhurst that his workshop was "a virtual production line" with "24 paying pupils" (p.30). Perhaps van Dyck did the same thing.

It sounds as if Rembrandt eventually will do too, from something Schama said earlier.

It was also common for the master to do "important" parts and leave pupils to fill in the rest.

Sir Anthony van Dyck (as he would later be), being thought of as Rubens II, gave him some obvious advantages -- the same relief from taxation that Rubens enjoyed for one.
That has to be nice. How does an artist of today benefit from tax relief ? I'm sure you must first be a professional artist and selling.

Seems Schama previously used "exophthalmic eyes" (abnormal protrusion of the eyeballs)...in his book Citizens. Click here to test your word power against Simon Schama's broad vocabulary....worthy of a bookmark (IMHO). Landscape painter Cornelis Poelenburgh (1927 Holland)....another I've never heard of ? Will google this later.
I cannot help but wonder why Prof. Schama put soooooo much into this book, he clearly had enough for several books if some details were expanded.

Ginny ~ I mentioned "after" a number of posts back...am sure it was overlooked. Anytime you copy another artist's painting you sign your name followed by "after and you also paint in the original artist's signature".
Emma

... a lot of things!
Does anyone else have comments on Schama's repeats on pages 34 - 35?
p. 34: Rembrandt, who must have had contact with ...
p. 34: If Rembrandt knew anything at all of this ...
p. 35: Perhaps he (Rembrandt) had heard that Rubens had been given a ... degree...
p. 35: Perhaps, too, Rembrandt knew that when Rubens had been made...

This is sure a long shopping list!
Is this a classic way to write history?
Is Professor Schama taking the reader for a little ride?
I love the book, but I don't applaud this method? Do you?

Ginny ~ speaking of in the manner of, we have a CD of Tom Lehrer songs
which we listen to on long drives, and he does a riff on
My Darling Clementine, in the manner of
Mozart opera (Clem-in - tina -tina -tina -tina)
Gilbert and Sullivan (doop-de-doop-de .. Cleem-in-teen -a), and a
great jazz style, (ooooohhh, aaahhhh, her slipper in the brine), and one other,
that we sing along with, and enjoy time after time. I'll bet your Happy Birthday take-off is wonderful, too!

EMMA:"exophthalmic eyes": it looks to me like Huygens had Graves disease: a problem with the thyroid gland. I've had several friends that had it, and it causes that "pop-eyed" look that he has. Now it is treatable -- then people must have suffered with many illnesses that are treatable now.

MIPPY: thank you for "after". The current page makes it clearer. Apparently this Pontius Paulus made engravings of many paintings, including Ruben's Christ and the Van Dyke portrait on p. 35. He must have copied the paintings into whatever medium is used for engraving (does anyone know how engravings are made?)

I agree about the lists. I feel that Schama wants to expand his scene as much as possible, and is forcing a relationship to Rembrandt to do it.

In edit: I love spell check! It tried to change "Pontius" to "Panties".

Golly, I don't know! We're going to have to look up Pontius (hahaha Panties, that's just about my mental level at this point) and these two illustrations and see if they were done in the style of Pontius (Schama seems to be saying Pontius did them) or completed by a student, anybody game?

Now in the heading title you can see I have stumbled on an Eureka! Moment in that if you take the date (today is the 14th) and add 20 to it, you'll have the page number…for a while, so you can easily figure where we are. For a while. Ahaahaha

Exophthalmic eyes. Now there is a word, oh yes and Joan K, Graves disease, didn't Barbara Bush say she suffered from that? Isn't it a thyroid thing?

VARIATIONS!! That's the word !!!! And Schama uses it on page 34, I was going crazy trying to think of it. Schama is up to his old tricks again, he hints, you go nuts trying to think of it or figure it out and he slips it in, later, but it's a real mental workout.

Haahah Mippy on your wonderful Clementine, love that song, herring boxes without topses, sandals were for Clementine. I'm about to that stage myself.

Now that you mention it, there do seem to be a lot of "perhaps-es," and other conjectures, I'm just noticing them! I am not sure that they are all conjecture tho, are you all reading the footnotes in the back of the book? Seems to be a lot of scholarship, how can we tell what's close to the truth and what's speculation and who else shares that speculation?

EmmaBarb, thank you for that link! I've bookmarked it and since I did know the first 4 I feel suddenly very smart and am afraid to look further, (and never know when to say farther or further) hahhaa. I sure have to look up almost every word here! Sorry to have missed the "after" when it was said!!!! Your posts are always so interesting I go off on a riff on something and forget the rest!

I must say Professor Schama must have the original multi tasking mind, yes that's another artist nobody ever heard of, let us know what you find out?

JoanK, they explained engravings in detail in the film at the Rembrandt House but the guy was not present to demonstrate the day I was there so I'll see if the book I bought mentions it at all. I know the Rembrandt Engravings are quite small, there is quite a collection of them in the house. I'll check it out unless one of you knows how they are done?

I can't help looking at Rubens' portrait on page 35, it's going to be very interesting to get to this subject. Off to look up anything on engraving in the Rembrant Huis Museum Book.

I found an interesting reference to Rembrandt in George Eliot's Middlemarch, which we're going to be discussing in September. Eliot is describing a young woman whom everyone is talking about dismissively because she is so "plain" (read ugly). Eliot says:

"(Her plainness) was of a good human sort, such as the mothers of our race have very comfortably worn in all latitudes under a more or less becoming headgear. Rembrandt would have painted her with pleasure, and would have made her broad features look out of the canvas with intelligent honesty. For honesty .. was Mary's reigning virtue."

This remark is especially interesting, since Eliot herself was spectacularly "plain". But I'm glad she feels Rembrandt would have looked beyond that to see what was within (as a number of people did with Eliot). That is what I feel is so special about Rembrandt.

For more remarks like that, join us in reading

MIDDLEMARCH

Rembrandt was dressing for success in his self-portraits now and didn't want to be called common or garden "pictor vulgaris". Rubens received an honorary Oxford degree "pictor doctus"....have not heard of this type of degree ? Knight of the Garter was given to Rubens by King Charles - and the King gave him a diamond ring from his own finger, a diamond hatband and a sword (the same sword he was knighted with). Wow....nobody gives me diamonds for painting

As a young man, Ant van Dyck visited Sofonisba Anguissola (try saying that three times real fast...ha) who had been the most famous "woman" painter of her time....she was in her 90's and almost blind but "most alert". A drawing and letter appears in Van Dyck's sketchbooks. Many biographies talk about her colorful life rather than her accomplished artwork. Never heard of this lady....have you ? Women's Art History.

Printmaking....takes a little while to load because of a number of images (worth a look though). I have another link I like better....if I can just find it.

Emma

I guess Rembrandt had every reason to dress for success. His future looked bright in the early 1630s. A successful artist certainly lived well in the 17th century. Ginny,I love the new heading. To be honest, I find it easier to read several pages at a sitting...especially during the summer when so much time is spent doing outside chores [or it's just too hot to think - I think my brain may have melted this past week].

Found it! The book I bought at the Rembrandt House Museum has a lovely section on the process of etching (is that the same as engraving??):

Rembrandt was a true master of the technique of etching. An etching is an impression on paper pulled from the copper plate. The plate is coated with a moisture of asphalt, resin and wax. Known as the etching ground, this coating is resistant to acid. A scene or design is drawn into the coating using an etching needle. The copper is expose where the needle goes through the etching ground.

The plate is then submerged in a bath containing an acid solution. The acid bites out--etches—the exposed lines of the drawing, creating grooves in the plate. The etching ground is then removed and the clean plate is inked with an ink-pad or a roller. The surface of the plate is then wiped clean; the ink remains in the grooves.

At this sate a dampened piece of paper is lad on the copper plate. The plate and the paper are passed between the rollers of the press. The paper absorbs the ink from the grooves and the design appears in reverse on the paper. The damp sheet is hung up on the line to dry like so much washing.--- page 40

Here is Rembrandt's own engraving press or a reconstruction of same:

Here's a super link showing a wonderful illustration of The Copper Print Press 1642 by Abramam Bosse This is from the New York Public Library, and it gives you a real feel for what happened.

I note that also in 2006 Rembrandt will have his 400th birthday so they are planning many exhibitions and stuff: Rembrandt Huis

It does make you wonder, tho, when you read what all is involved in it, how on earth they ever thought of doing this? It would never have occurred to me!

Here also, and out of focus, sorry, is one of the many stacks of books around the house:

Today's the 15th so we're on page 35, hahaha EmmaBarb, you missed your time, the King would have called you Dame Emmabarb! Hahahaa I think this page is quite interesting.

Schama says that the self portrait of Rubens is "both formidably present and winningly self-deprecating."

Flamboyant cuss, wasn't he? Cape, flared hat, curled moustache, but the eyes look sort of unsure. Yet Schama says that "Rubens's sense of himself was constant."

I envy people whose sense of self is strong, I'm not seeing that in his self portrait, what are you all seeing?

The next page is something else, isn't it? Steal a peek at the imitations!

Oh and what does THIS mean?

"…while at the same time being a calculated Protestant response to the immense diapason of the Flemish master's altarpiece."

It has a footnote, and that refers you to a detailed description on 161-161 of the painting and Rembrandt's response on further pages. I think I need to read that, let's cheat a little and read those two noted sections on footnote 56?

Thank you EmmaBarb, for that link, I had not heard of her but there are certainly some INTERESTING paintings on THAT link, aren't there? Jeepers!

Hahhaa, Suec, melted brain, I can identify! (Or that's my excuse, anyway) hahaaa I'm glad you like it!!

Didn't they live well, tho? It looks like that's one way to rise, I'm not sure that's true today, or IS it? Thinking of Andy Wharhol and maybe Norman Rockwell, didn't THEY also attain fame? I don't know about kings. Who would YOU all say is the most famous modern artist?

And as the book says, why shouldn't Rembrandt!?! Why, indeed.

JoanK! Thank you for that reference to Rembrandt in the Eliot! "Intelligent honesty," I love that. It's just amazing once you start reading something, how many cross references occur in other books. Love it!

What do you all see in Rubens's self portrait on page 35? Inquiring minds want to know? How would you characterize the MAN from looking at the portrait?

Note to those interested: Wednesday night, 8 p.m. (where I live), on MPT-Tv I plan to watch "Antiques Road Show ~ FYI". The preview shows them talking about the Rembrandt heist, worth about 5 million, where the canvases were taken right out of their frames still on the wall of the museum. There is also a demo on restoration of a painting.
Emma

I, too, like to read a few pages at a time to keep continuity, but I still enjoy the "Page a Day" philosophy.

Canada, through its National Gallery, has just paid 4.5 million dollars to acquire a painting by Francesco Galviatti. I cannot locate an image of the item on the web, but our local paper has a likeness in today's issue. This reminds me that "ART" is just a name for someone's work that is desirable.

Quoting Louie Travis in a comment to A.R.C. on 10-5-2004 :-
"Remember folks, it's only called "art", because someone with some kind of "trusted opinion" said it was. Everyone has a right to their own opinion; whether or not anyone believes it, is something else. What is and is not art has and continually is argu over and over again on this forum and others like it. It doesn't really matter, because the people arguing don't set the standard of what is or is not. To most people, including the painters, these theories are meaningless. When I say that, I am implyi that most us will continue to paint what we want to paint, regardless of most of the various "isms" and movements that came before us and after us."

Brian

Picture compressed to conform to Graphic policy.

Thank you EmmaBarb, I will too, that's very timely for our discussion and I forgot that the "heist" WAS Rembrandt. Super! Let's watch and see what they say we can use!

Thank you Brian for that painting and the quote. Maybe we can discuss at the end what WE now think art IS? I have never heard of that artist, many thanks!

I like the page a day too, no matter how busy I am I always feel I can read ONE, but look look, today's is NOT a read me page!

Oh My Gosh! It's a picture page! Our scheduled page for today is one of portraits and do you remember what we said we'd DO when we got to one? We said we'd discuss our ideas about the paintings!

So today is the 16th and you add 20 to it and you get 36, and there is a page of paintings. First Pontius after Rubens, showing Rubens from the right this time. Dashing figure, but did they all dress that way?

And then the three Rembrandts. That looks like a child dressing up for Halloween, to me? That face? It's comical and funny. It's CUTE. He looks like can I get away with this, my cloak is too big and my collar makes me look like a clown, I look like a child dressing up and trying to be something else. That's amazing and what is that MUFF?? I bet Schama is going to explain this on the facing page and so I wanted to say what I thought first!

What do YOU all think of these paintings? DON'T look ahead at page 17??!!??

Look at that fearful EYE? What do YOU see in Rubens's eyes? In both the portrait on page 36 and the one on page 35? Be truthful and just say what you think??

Ginny ~ about that TV show tomorrow night, I think it's a repeat and some have probably already seen it. I recall parts of it but will pay more attention now we're reading about Rembrandt. Oh and the 5 million....I believe that was for one of the paintings ? Anyway the art restoration demo I've not seen before.

Brian - lovely painting, thank you.

I read that Rubens was the first artist to paint landscapes and objects in the backgrounds of his portrait paintings rather than the dark nearly imageless backgrounds we see in so many older paintings.

I don't think any artist living today will ever be as famous as Rembrandt or Rubens and the rest of The Old Masters or the New Old Masters as far as that goes. But nearly 400 years ago they probably said the same thing about Rembrandt and the others.
Emma

I tried my search engine (Scroogle) for information on the Boston Art thefts with the two
word clue above.

I was rewarded by getting a "Tour of Amsterdam" which I had not previously come across.
It contained the surprising revelation :-
One random architectural factoid I learned was that each building has a protruding beam
with a hook on its roof to hoist up large furniture and belongings, which are then put through
the large open windows. Staircases aren’t an option when moving belongings for Amsterdam
residents. Since they are close together and so tall and narrow, every thing and every space
in these buildings has a purpose and a function.

I will now study the day's paintings and will post again later.

http://www.thecelebritycafe.com/travel/amsterdam_2005_01-p1.html

The tour was fun! Perfect entertainment for a rained out day on the golf course.

Brian

First of all, I'll have to admit - again - that I have read a long way ahead. I'm sorry but I can't help it,
but I will try to ignore the "explanation" on subsequent pages and give you "my honest opinion".

Rembrandt was an excellent ETCHER - probably the best at the time or even since. He preferred
etching to the more common engraving, as it gave him the opportunity to produce more fluid lines,
and lent itself more easily to the process of "pulling off" different copies from his original work.

Rembrandt reworked many of his etchings many times, and did not hesitate to sell copies of them
as he went along. People often bought several different "states" of the same etching.
Both he, and Reubens were first rate entrepreneurs, and used every trick "to make a buck".
Rembrandt had developed a secret method of applying resin to his copper plates each time before re-working the image,
and although he had many students, this secret was never divulged to any of them.

As to the effect that the etchings had on me, personally, I cannot help but be impressed by the changes
that he was able to achieve in the demeanor of the subject (himself). He was back to his reverence for
Reubens and all that he stood for, but was determined to show that he could emulate it and outshine it.

I am learning more than I dared to hope, and am ENJOYING it immensely.

Brian.

Thank you Brian, I love to read those things. I love to read about other person's trips. I find that lots of times I learn a lot about THEM ahahaha, Yes on the leaning houses, and how they got furniture in them. I do have a photo of the stairs in the Rembrandt House, it's just wide enough for a human body much less a piano or other piece of furniture:

Here are Rembrandt's own stairs, he, like Charles Dickens must have had SOME legs. I hope I haven't put this up before, I have a feeling I have. I would not want to try to get a grocery bag up that thing, but you HAVE to go up it to get upstairs, and it curves something awful. No piano or bed ever went up those stairs, but from the street (in this case, the canal in others) on a pulley hook as Brian describes.

I really love Amsterdam. And Holland. I know people say oh no, no no, I wouldn't enjoy that, drugs, prostitutes, whatnot, I just found a wonderful friendly place (of course I would not know marijuana if it hit me in the face) but I loved the country and the people. I may be too naïve. Now I WILL say this last time the hotel was a bit more on the nicer side so the television channels did not show the absolutely mind popping pornography that I saw the prior two visits. Maybe they wanted you to pay for them. I nearly had a heart attack year before last tho, truly and almost dropped the control! That way I'd be stuck with it till I could turn it off, you really have NO idea. You can't seem to figure out the channels so here you go, one by one, HOPING you'll miss the hideous one and NEVER managing to do it, it's hard to change channels when your eyes are averted? hahahaa

EmmaBarb, I haven't seen the show and it's on tonight at 8 I think I'll tape it. Oh I did not know THAT about Rubens, that he was the first one to paint stuff IN the background instead of blobby stuff. Interesting!!!

Ok here on page 37, surprise surprise, he's telling us about what's on page 36. And now that we know what etching is, 11 "stages" is quite a lot, isn't it? I bet it was TINY, too! I am still somewhat confused over "etching" and "engraving," and I see from reading Brian's post there IS a difference!

Why Brian, I did NOT know this!

"Rembrandt reworked many of his etchings many times, and did not hesitate to sell copies of them as he went along. People often bought several different "states" of the same etching."

Now that's fascinating, and I loved this too:

As to the effect that the etchings had on me, personally, I cannot help but be impressed by the changes that he was able to achieve in the demeanor of the subject (himself). He was back to his reverence for Reubens and all that he stood for, but was determined to show that he could emulate it and outshine it.

I did not SEE this and so I am studying it again, thank you for that!

THIS goes in the heading!!! I am so glad! I am learning more than I dared to hope, and am ENJOYING it immensely

Oh hold on, you're seeing subtle changes on page 36? When I get out a magnifying glass I believe I do, too? Wonder which one came first?

Of course right off the bat I don't see a lovelock. WHERE is the lovelock? I see long hair?

"The right arm and elbow of Nicodemus!"

Now do you see a photo of Rubens's Descent from the Cross so we can compare this right arm and elbow?

Furthermore, I looked it up in the back, there are tons of references to this work and NO copy of the photo of it in the entire book?

I bet you Dr. Schama is a real tease at the holidays, he seems to want to forcibly elicit the reader/ student to THINK!

I of course now have to go off and find the sleeve of Nicodemus~hahaha

What differences do the rest of you see?

I know that Rembrandt's Decent from the Cross is in the book, compared to Reuben's, but I haven't found it yet either. I can see the "lovelock" I think; the long bit of hair trailing over his left shoulder. But what am I missing with the arm? What right arm thrust sharply into space?

Your question about the eyes is a good one. Rembrandt shows himself with eyes to the left, just like Rubens, but the effect is quite different. To me, Rubens looks a little impatient, but very sharp. Rembrandt looks like a boy about to put his hand in the cookie jar, glancing around to make sure no one is watching.

I am still stuck on the comment on page 35. Rubens knows who he is, and this is who he is!! But Rembrandt keeps remaking himself, looking for a persona. Will we see that this comes from their backgrounds? We don't know them yet. I'm going to guess that Rubens comes from privilege, from a settled position in society. And that Rembrandt is the upstart, trying to enter a position higher than his family. Later, Schama will discuss the rumor that Rembrandt was Jewish. If it's true, I assume it was a secret, since it's not openly acknowledged, and Rembrandt is trying to make himself into something different from his heritage.

I watched the "Antiques RoadShow - FYI" and recognized all the paintings that were heisted....including the van Dyck that is in our book

Oh and I stand corrected, the "reward" being offered for info leading to their return in good condition is 5 million. The collection I believe they said is worth 500-600 million. Did you hear the lady on the tv show say one of Rembrandt's etchings of a self-portrait was about the size of a postage stamp ? Looks like one of these etchings in the book on page 36.

Brian - sorry your golf outing was rained out. I recently gave my golf clubs, bag, cart and misc. stuff to one of my friends who has just recently taken up the game. It will be a good started set for her.

Ginny ~ Rembrandt's own stairs remind me so much of my paternal grand-parents house. Thanks for the interesting photo showing the pully rope.

For comparison:
Rembrandt's "Descent from the Cross (1633-34)
Rubens "Descent from the Cross (1612)

Emma

Looking onward, to the end of this section, the last paragraph on p. 38.
Here is his new signiture: Rembrandt f[ecet]
assuming "fecet" is "made this"
with the significant point made that it is a one-name signature,
as done by Michelangelo, Raphael, and others
and also in our day, pardoning the odd comparison, as Cher or Madona.

Have any of you ever thought of signing a story or a painting with a one-name nom de plume? I confess,
the "Mippy" for my choice of of a screen-name name is somewhat like that.

Brian ~ That was an excellent post about techniques used in etchings!

Lifting furniture up with hoists and pulleys:
I remembered this unusual feature of Amsterdam houses from a visit many years ago,
so I was pleasantly startled to find in reading about American houses in the pre-revolutionary war period, that narrow staircases were, obviously, common, but that lifting furniture to the second floor through the window was also common, both in England and America.
Many of the pully systems for homes in New England towns were easily rigged by sea captains or their sailors, some of whom had houses built in the towns here and nearby, where I live in summer on Cape Cod.
Most of these artifacts had been lost in re-building or when the 17th century houses were torn down, but letters and articles refer to the way large furniture was lifted by ropes.

It is interesting to note that both these methods for reproducing pictures require the image to be
executed in reverse (mirror image) to give an anatomically correct result.

While Rembrandt had no problem at all in doing this, many of his etchings show his LEFT hand
doing what his RIGHT hand should have been doing. He was far more concerned with getting a
perfect result from his handiwork than he was in these mundane details. There are even a few of
his copies of etchings that have his signature reversed!

Leonardo da Vinci was adept at mirror writing and used it to keep secrets. I have just finished reading
"The Da Vinci Code" by Dan Brown, and there is quite a large segment of the book concerned with
reverse writing. The book is a great novel - - - just a NOVEL - - - and I can't see what all the press
is about, when they talk of the massive opposition from the Church. Incidentally, if you have not
yet read the book, try to get hold of the Illustrated version - - - it has many of the pictures which are
referred to in the story. My local library had a copy, so I was fortunate.

Brian

Well my goodness! Page 38 means we have finished a PART? We've finished a part!!?!?! I can't believe it! hahaha

I can't believe it and Mippy is right! Rembrandt has just signed his first name on a copper etching plate. I loved that Rembrandt f for fecit. Neato. Reminds you of the Pantheon, huh? And oh how interesting about the American pulleys. There's a new book out on Niew Amsterdaam or some such spelling I would like to read, about the early Dutch in this country, I bet it's in there! Thanks for that.

One name? hahaah Like Madonna or Diddy? Hahahaa or Cher!

Brian I did not know that the mirror image was used for both etchings and engravings, can you all do mirror writing? I can't even write upside down. Brian! What does this mean? "While Rembrandt had no problem at all in doing this, many of his etchings show his LEFT hand doing what his RIGHT hand should have been doing." How can you tell?

Oh for heaven's sake, I just gave away two copies of the DaVinci Code. I have heard that it has seriously impacted some people's faith, that's a serious accusation, but I haven't read the book and really can't say. There does seem to be serious opposition to the filming of the movie tho, Westminster Cathedral (not the one everybody thinks of, the Roman Catholic one) refused permission but Lincoln didn't and that's where one nun is protesting.

Does he explain any of the paintings we're looking at in any way other than what we're reading? Any other insights??

Iain Pears also does a lot about art, mysteries about historic art, I've never read one of his either.

Joan K, I thought this, too, " Rembrandt looks like a boy about to put his hand in the cookie jar, glancing around to make sure no one is watching. " hahaha wasn't the effect almost comical? The ARM? I'm getting obsessed with the ARM!!

Oh good points on how Rembrandt is always trying to remake himself, I wonder what the difference in their ages is? I don't particularly like the look on Rubens's eye, myself. I think, even, what 400 years later Rembrandt has a personality in his work that Rubens's self portrait does not. Wouldn't THAT be ironic?

I am looking forward to seeing what their backgrounds are, great point!

EmmaBarb, I taped it and can't wait to see it , I am going to be very disappointed if it is the wrong thing, you'll have to give every word. 500-600 million dollars! Wow!!

YES small, I was so shocked, I love Rembrandt's etchings of the shoppers and they have it in the Rembrandt Huis Museum, and it's TINY, how on earth could they do that with such precision? We know his eyes were not nearsighted, that's for sure.

OH and EMMABARB has put in Rubens's Descent from the Cross!!! AND a comparison to Rubens! We must have those in the heading!

All right, which ONE is Nicodemus and which one's the arm? That guy in black on the right who seems to have a muff on?

I'm going to be off tomorrow but when I get back in tomorrow night I'll put up both of those in the heading so we can compare them and figure out the ARM!! Where can we find out which one is Nicodemus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Arimathea

"The Descent from the Cross" was executed by several painters, including Fiorentino and Rogier.
In Rembrandt's work, he has used his own self as a model for the man who stands on the ladder holding
the arm of Jesus.

These facts are readily available in the Web, and add to the enjoyment of reading the book.

Brian.

Now there's Rembrandt toothpaste ... wonder if there's still a copyright on using his name ......hmmmmmmmmm .

I'm glad to move on to Chapter two. Appears Prof. Schama is getting into more history now. Didn't know there were so many Rubens ? Interesting Rubens was named after St. Peter and St. Paul.

This person I know had to have his huge sofa hoisted up to his second story where he had sliding-glass doors to get it into his house. Wouldn't fit any other way. Now he says if he decides to sell and move the sofa will have to stay (ha).

Adrbri -- wouldn't you love to own one of those etchings where Rembrandt had his signature reversed.

I read The Da Vinci Code and enjoyed it. I saw just the other day about the nun protesting the use of the church for filming the movie version. The church is being paid a rather large sum of money. If it was my church....not sure I'd want all those people and props etc. all around everywhere for any length of time....even for the money.

Ginny ~ I think Rubens was twenty some years older than Rembrandt. I feel Rembrandt put more feeling into his subject's eyes and hands.
I don't know how some of those artists painted on small cameos and inside walnut shells and such. They had to have a pretty powerful magnifying glass.

Nicodemus... he stands with Mary at the foot of the cross.
Emma

Did you see it ? I happened onto a movie on TV this afternoon and was surprised when I saw a full size Rubens painting of "The Decent from the Cross". The movie was on our Ch 50 @ 3 p.m. called "A Dog of Flanders" about an orphan boy who struggled to become an artist within a society that favored just the upper class. He lived with his grandfather after his mother died in the outskirts of Antwerp. It's to be aired again Aug. 25th @ 2 p.m. if anyone is interested.
I hope to see it again and pay a bit more attention to references to Rubens.
Emma

hahaah ALL this time, ALL this time I have been feeling REALLY guilty and REALLY behind and at the same time as I'd fly by I'd worry, where ARE they all, where IS everybody, why is nobody saying anything?

Haahah Kind of hard to talk about a blank page, isn't it? Wasn't THAT a lovely vacation? Hahaahah I sat down to catch UP, read the first page, 42, and got ALL caught up in the story and thought now THIS is good and interesting and then looked to see how many pages I had to read to catch up and…and>… We're THERE! Hahahaha

Well now, quite a different personage, in jail and from a rich family (and that startles me, I thought rich families frowned on artists AS artists, this is getting very interesting).

And he was not trained AS an artist (didn't you love the droll, "had he not been sure of his reception, he should never have dared to make an approach." ) hahaha I am not so sure there, what do you think of that? Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Oh and EmmaBarb I didn't see that latest show you're talking about but I finally watched the Anqiques Roadshow FYI, the show on the Rembrandt thieveries. I took notes actually. His Storm on the Sea of Galilee and Vermeer's The Concert!!! A Vermeer which is one of only 35 in the world. . And then a 1100 BC Chinese sort of vase (of course I don't have the notes here) and some Degas drawings. I don't think these were ordinary bandits dressed up as policemen.

That is an absolutely gorgeous museum, I have never heard of it and now would like to go. It's a shame you can't display works of art anymore unless behind bullet proof glass. I think it's amazing that they have left the frames where the Rembrandt was cut out just as it was because they hope it will be returned, unharmed.

I am going to try to find a photo of the Town Hall at Antwerp, I knew I should have gone there, if it's still there, that is and bring it here. I absolutely LOVE the first sentence on the top of page 43, just LOVE the picture it paints!!!

I have a photo from the Rembrandt House of one of his paintings, and you can see the richness of the wood frame they talk about, will bring it tomorrow.

Anybody know what a syndic is by the way?

Have we actually read 42 pages? Ahaah It's just now getting really good, I love this part. (By the way did you notice the contrast in the subtitle: Inquities?

Oh and by the way, what's the "kind of man who waited for other to doff their cap in the street?"

Oh that's a different Nicodemus than I thought, thank you Emma Barb, I also need to get those in the heading!!

I AM~!! I am definitely interested in this:

The movie was called "A Dog of Flanders" about an orphan boy who struggled to become an artist within a society that favored just the upper class. He lived with his grandfather after his mother died in the outskirts of Antwerp. It's to be aired again Aug. 25th @ 2 p.m. if anyone is interested.

I am, thank you for that, EmmaBarb!!!!

A layman, who in the name, and by the authority, of the Holy See assumes the care and civil administration of the temporalities and in particular the pecuniary alms destined for the support and benefit of Franciscan convents, and thence provides for the requirements of the brethren.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14385a.htm

Brian

AHA! I was right, for a change. Rubens was brought up (if not born) to privilege: among the people who know who they are and have a sense of "entitlement". Of course they wait for others to doff their caps.

What a story. We just meet Rubens and we find him about to be executed!! This is like the Saturday morning serials: will we have to wait till next week to find out what happens to him?

WHOA!! Is that heading right??????????

Just want to be sure I'm not lost in a fog. I thought Jan Rubens was Peter Paul's father.

Rubens' father, which is why he is not an artist!

I went ahead, reading this entire section, and I think it is quite a bit off the subject.
Does any one else think we might speed through this bit, not tear it apart day by day,
re: the unfortunate life of Rubens' father?

Yes, I do understand that our painter, P.P. Rubens will have his life affected by his fathers' indiscretion;
however, I think our dear Prof. Schama is padding a little, here.

This is the FATHER? hahahaaha Well well looks like I'm the confused one! hahahaa

Too many irons in the fire, thank you Suec and the Mippster!!! hahahaha Well I enjoyed it ANYWAY! ahahaaa

I missed that completely! Well, I guess he's for it! Hello, goodbye --nice to have met you.

GINNY: you don't mean that we're to have read to page 50 by the 20th (3 days ago). Do you? Look at the heading again.

YEEeeeeeow! You all are going to have to use your Interpretative Abilities in this discussion!!! Hahahaha You all are going to have to keep me straight! WHAT, you can't read 50 pages? Honestly! hahahaha I forgot to change the DATE!

I don't know the father, and now I forgot the date, what next I wonder? hahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAAAA

Actually kind of reminds me of travel, I go, I return, I guess you could say I went, I saw, but why travel if you can't remember half of what you saw? Hahahaha

Oh but I enjoy what parts I CAN remember!

WELL anybody with any thoughts on today's page? (Would that be page In Edit: Heck I even got this wrong! 43? hahahahAHAHAHHA)

It's ok to… (I hope it's OK to) mess up, she bleated nervously.

Ginny, it might be easier if each person posting, started the post with a page number.
It would save you from the chore of visiting the discussion each and every day to change the heading.

I tend to agree --- that while Jan Rubens (Peter Paul's dad) had an exciting (and nearly exiting affair!) with
Anna, and it undoubtedly had some effect on the plot --- Schama has rambled on at unnecessary length.

Let us read the sordid story, and treat it as a rest from concentrating on the hard work to come.

I, for one will not strain to post unless I need further clarification, or feel that I can contribute --- on a daily,
obsessional basis.

Brian

syndic --- the people's advocate. Isn't that what a lawyer is ?

I was thinking too that Jan Rubens must be related to Peter Paul somehow. Simon Schama is more interested in history I guess than he is art.
Emma

EMMA says " Simon Schama is more interested in history I guess than he is art".

I don't think thats true, although his field is history, not art. I think he just can't resist a good story or interesting character.

I don't know how you feel about it but I LOVE sitting down every evening with this book, checking the date and then reading the page.

Today we're on 44 and I loved this on 43: "a retinue of eleven hundred knights, squires, pages, heralds, and drummers, and the usual complement of wrestlers, fools, dwarves and dancers, to marry Anna of Saxony."

I'm a fool for the Middle Ages, don't you love this description? It's worth reading the whole book for, to me.

I love this entire section, Jan (now that I know who he is), and William of Orange, so fun. We tend to think of these folks as post-Dark Ages barbarians, it does not sound like that, does it?

(Have any of you seen or read Gormengast?)

And the bride's hair was like playing card hearts. I am watching the wonderful Edward and Mrs. Simpson and she had her hair done up like that in one of the scenes, and so did Wallis Simpson, at one time.

I am not familiar with Amadis of Gaul, are any of you? Oh and Brabant, we're back at Brabant!!

So now we're off on another tangent with a new cast of characters, doggone good thing we're not reading THIS one fast.

I tried to find a link to Dillenberg Germany and all I can find is who was born there, is there nothing left? Has it been taken over by some other town or something? It seems to be in Hesse?

But here IS the absolutely incredible Town Hall

in Antwerp (HOW could I have missed Antwerp!?!) built in 1564, from this this site: read more about it

So we have a Lutheran bride whose husband allows her to practice in private in a Catholic country, and she's unstable, (or excitable?) and this seems a recipe for disaster, to me! (Better than a soap opera?)

I'm having a problem getting the two Down from the Cross paintings in the heading so I think I'll wait till we come to them again, if nobody minds, and put them up then?

Syndic, that's an interesting word, thank you for that definition, EmmaBarb, and Brian, that's quite a position, I had no idea!

Now I know some of you think this is off the subject and Mippy has suggested speeding up, Brian thinks we need to read it as a respite, what do you all think? I hate to skip anything, myself (it's some sort of Mr. Monk like compulsion I guess hahahaa) And just think we're now on page 44!!!! Hard to believe, actually.

Brian I'm not changing the heading every day any more I'm doing it a week at a time, so that's OK thank you for thinking of me, tho I like your suggestion and will post the page in my title line, too!

Schama is beginning to remind ME of Eco? Does he you, Joan? He's a multi tasker anyway. Kind of reminds you of somebody with attention disorder (like me), feels the need, has to include everything important, but LOOK at the time period he's trying to deal with. This may be more of an historical approach, than an art one (I don't know what Art History IS, to tell you the truth!) What IS Art History?

I also thought we were talking about Peter Paul, and was quite enthralled, less so now that we're going on into William etc.

So now we're getting the background so we can understand the MAN Rubens, I think, which should affect our knowledge of his art. I hope. I know nothing of him but I sure love Belgium, and am interested in reading about it. How many of us knew all this before hand?

Ginny ~
Oh, please don't reduce Dr. Schama to the level of Umberto Eco!
Apples and oranges, pun intended!
Eco writes fiction, and indeed takes all the leeway a novelist may, and should, to send us to the
dazzling heights of imagination.

In contrast, Schama documents everything, as a good academic must!
In some cases, well known to academics, writers put in everything they can, to cite as much as they can, in order to quote all their friends and enemies, and not leave anyone out. However, I'm sure Schama is too secure in his career to do that for the same reasons young assistant professors do.
Yes, he's taking us through a labyrinth, but what a glorious one!

MIPPY: ha ha ha. Right on the nose with academics. No, I refuse to admit that Schama is like Eco. But he does love to wander around in his period. Well, who wouldn't!! I'm enjoying the wander thoroughly!!

But ECO enjoyed it too? hahaaha

Yikes!! you're right!

"Antwerp" derives from two Old English words - "Hand - Werpen" (hand thrown away)
see the story HERE : - http://www.trabel.com/antwerp/antwerp-grotemarkt.htm

Antwerp is not the only location to "use" the HAND in its memorabilia, flags etc.
How about the "Red Hand of Ulster"?

Brian

Ginny ~ the Town Hall in Antwerp is a building I would love to walk around in. Thanks for the photo.

I'm reading ahead because of the religious history. It makes me sad that so many paintings, statues, etchings and other art objects were completely destroyed. One painting was left on the wall because it was just too large to deal with (The Judgement I believe.....but not a Rubens).

Adrbri (Brian) -- thanks for the link. The Grote Markt of Antwerp is a place I'd love to sit and take in the view. Never heard of the sculptor Jef Lambeaux, love his Silvius Brabo though. It appears he was also an architect. Ouch on that legend of the terrible giant....I'm glad Brabo killed him. I love fountains with sculptures.

Emma

Brian, thank you for that fascinating history of the meaning of Antwerpen, hand thrown away, I've been frantically trying to think of place names with "Hands" in them, what a fascinating side track! But GOSH I hope everybody looked at Brian's link, what a GORGEOUS photo of the Gross Markt. Now I need to put Antwerp back in my next trip, (with Orange and Arles) and of course Pompeii. Ahahaha Of COURSE it's a Roman soldier associated with the HAND legend, too!

EmmaBarb, me too, love fountains with sculptures, one time we went out (sorry for all the travel memories) to Versailles on a Sunday when they turn on the fountains in the gardens, and THAT was an experience, (I am not sure which was the more exciting, seeing them come on and go off one by one or seeing the fat old woman running from fountain to fountain as they cut them off) haahaha

Oh and I did inquire of Dillenberg in the Travel sections here on SeniorNet and they say that it's apparently gone? Or only mentioned in history? What a shame.

It's interesting to read in this section of the tremendous hold and struggle religion had in those days, isn't it? The Inquisition, "introduced into the Netherlands in 1520," (when was the Spanish Inquisition?) and the dates here are eerily reminiscent of another famous execution, this one of Archbishop Cranmer, in England, in 1556?

I find it somewhat fascinating, and you have to wonder, reading this, which now reads like a Russian novel, a million dizzying new names, new faces, new historical titles, and significance, I think Professor Schama's true love of history got the better of him here, but we can appreciate what he's trying to do even when our eyes glaze over yet ANOTHER new name and we wonder what on earth this has to do with Rubens, or for that matter, Rembrandt?

Notice the dates tho. In the 1500's in England the same thing was happening.

Our talk of hands reminds me of something else, too. I took a course at Oxford one year and encountered something I never heard of: the Martyr's Monument.

Gigantic structure, almost impossible to get in a photo, right IN the middle of a busy street, lots of cars and people.

The monument is to three men, Archbishop Cranmer and Bishops Nicholas Ridley and Hugh Latimer, who were burned at the stake there.

Archibishop Cranmer was the writer of the Book of Common Prayer, and Henry VIII's Chaplain. He's the one who, when Henry asked, when dying, for comfort, replied he had none to give. Apparently in Oxford it is not known why Queen Mary chose Oxford to execute Archbishop Cranmer and Bishops Latimer and Ridley, as they were Cambridge men.

Cranmer had recanted, so he got to watch Latimer and Ridley be burned alive.

This is the spot where they were burned, Oxford, on Broad Street, near Balliol College.

Ridley was understandably distraught over the experience, and Latimer, an older man, offered these famous words of comfort as the flames rose:

Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man. We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out.

Cranmer was made to watch this touching horror. He had actually signed 4 recantations, but they did not let up on him and

on March 21, 1556, Cranmer was taken out to be burned, being first required to make his recantation public. The proximity of death restored both his faith and his dignity. With nothing to lose and only peace of soul to gain he shocked his enemies by disavowing his recantation and emphatically reasserting that the Pope's power was usurped and transubstantiation untrue. At one blow he undid all that government propaganda had achieved and restored heart to the surviving reformers.

Then he went to his death. As he had promised, he steadfastly held his right hand-which "had offended" by signing the false recantations -into the flame until it was consumed, and soon afterward the fire killed him. His brave and dignified end made an enormous impression. (Encyclopedia Britannica)

Here, (I hope) is the huge statue in the Martyr's Monument of Archbishop Cranmer, he's shown holding his Bible, and that's the only figure I can find holding one, so I hope that's he.

I had never heard the story of Latimer and Ridley before and I think it's quite unforgettable so wanted to share it here with you, especially since we are talking about hands and the Inquisition and the tremendous impact this struggle for religion had on the world at that time.

I believe today, however, and don't have the statistics to hand, but I believe that the Netherlands is one of the LEAST church going countries in the world, is that right? I know one year when we went it was very difficult for a friend who went with me to even FIND a Catholic church which was open. She had to go quite a ways out of town. In fact we did find one but it had been taken over by some strange kind of hare Krishna zodiac signs or something.

At any rate the date of their death was 1556, at the same time many of the events on our pages was unfolding, it must have been an incredible time.

I am also startled to see references to the "defunct" kingdom of Arles and also the magnificent Roman Amphitheatre at Orange.

Orange, they say, is full of fabulous Roman ruins. This is the "Arc de Triomphe" monument, dedicated to Julius Caesar and featuring Gauls being vanquished. It was saved in 1622 from demolishment by being incorporated into the town walls by Mauires of Nassau. If you use a magnifying glass you can see people in the center of it, thus giving you some idea of the huge size.

I have not been to Orange, have you all? The diagrams of the amphitheatre he mentions on page 45, the "Ampitheater of Augustus Caesar," are to die for. Ampitheatre at Orange This was the theater of Augustus, constructed in 27-25 AD, held up to 10,000 spectators, had hollow doors so the speakers could amplify their voices and whose acoustics today make it an perfect venue for concerts.

We spent once a week in Provence. We were going to do Nimes, Arles, and Orange. I particularly wanted to see the Roman burial grounds outside of Arles, the famous Les Alyscamps.

However we got to Nimes and no further, it's impossible to even see Nimes and the Roman artifacts, in a day!

But in our book we are talking about William of Orange and the two Williams, Rich and Richer, it's hard to imagine owning all the land these people did AND these lands we learn on page 46, come WITH the requirement of Catholicism. BARELY out of the Middle Ages!!! A time of great change internationally, are you surprised to find this clash between Protestantism and Catholicism so IMPORTANT?

GINNY: "A time of great change internationally, are you surprised to find this clash between Protestantism and Catholicism so IMPORTANT?"

No, unfortunately. It dominated history in Europe for centuries, and no description of the times can be free of it.

Below the clash of religions are the same struggles for power and land that are found in all history. It's tempting to say that the religious differences were just excuses for power struggles. IMO that is true of the leaders. But the ordinary people took these differences very seriously, and caused much human misery by doing so.

We talked earlier in the Story of Civilization discussion about the lack of religion in Europe. Perhaps as a reaction to the centuries of religious turmoil, most Western Europeans are not religious. We are told that many of them mistrust Bush because they don't understand and are suspicious of his religious ideas.

p. 47. I'm late reading my page. I find this fascinating. IMO this argument between Philip and the local authorities is over the issue of Federalism vs. autonomous states. Does that sound familiar? This was the argument in the early days of the US (and still sometimes is). In Iraq this argument is made much bitterer by ethnic and religious differences, and bitter history but it is still there.

In Schama's book we are seeing part of the painful processes by which nations were formed from a collection of small semi-autonomous leaders.

Ginny ~ I thank you for the photos and story of Latimer and Ridley and of Archbishop Cranmer, I'd not heard of these three men or the Martyr's Monument.

When did painting leave the wall and the "picture" was born ? Art history examines human visual creativity and its creators from ancient times to the present.
The main thing I expect from the art historian is to be properly informed with definitions as accurate as possible, without a lot of personal opinion. They should quote reliable authorities and let the artists' work speak for itself.

Ginny, thanks for the story of Latimer, Ridley, Cranmer and the photos. Religion certainly has been a source of contention in the world.

Thank you suec and EmmaBarb, I'm so glad you enjoyed it, I had never heard of the story of Latimer and Ridley and was quite taken with it. I loved Oxford but you can see that this religious controversy was sweeping Europe and England, as well.

Now I am not sure what to make of pages 48 and 49? Here we have a lot of background, the Beggar Prince and yet I'm having a problem kind of figuring out where this is going and what it has to do with Rembrandt? Couldn't this have been done in a paragraph or two or am I being unbearably churlish? These things are not particularly interesting? (Wel, l the beggar bowls were). WHERE do you suppose this is GOING?

At any rate, one thing did make me sit up, the winter if 1565-66 was a very harsh one. In one of the DK books on Amsterdam it points out that the paintings of this time showing scenes of skaters on the ice bound ports are not actually happy scenes but rather scenes of hardship in this hard time, so this is the second reference to it I have seen, apparently it was awful.

I see some interesting stuff coming up in the next few pages tho and hope I can still get on when the storms come tomorrow and Wednesday, so if I'm not here, carry on?

Oh good points, Joan K on Federalism and autonomy, I had not made that connection and of course you are absolutely right, also very good points on religion in Europe, etc. I especially liked your slant on whole nations being formed from semi autonomous leaders, those, I guess, were the remnants of the Feudal system, do you think? OR?? I get the "Middle Ages" mixed up sometimes.

EmmaBarb, given your definition of art historian, then where or what sort of…genre…. do you place what Schama is doing in these pages?

Well we're certainly getting our history and I, for one, was actually not very aware of Belgium in the mid 1500's but I see something in the next two pages which makes me sit STRAIGHT UP, can't wait to get there. How are you all faring with all this history, did you KNOW any of this? At all?

Did Dillenberg used to be a prison site ?

Ginny ~ Wow ! you went to Oxford, fantastic. I know a few senators and congressional representatives that went to Oxford and are Rhodes Scholars. Are you ?

I won't really know where to place Schama's writings about the "history of art" 'til I finish reading the book.
I can't help but wonder if Prof. Schama had all these notes somewhere in a box and he pulled them out at random for this book
It's really hard for me to comment on any of the war stuff, religious or otherwise...this part of the book is not that interesting to me. One of my friends is really a history buff and I've been trying to interest him in reading the book from a history perspective.....so he can then tell me what I've read
Emma

Having read ahead, as usual, I think most of the upcoming pages have nothing to do with Rembrandt at all.
This section is about Rubens and Dutch and European history.
Also, having read Schama's book on Dutch history, I did know about the religious conflicts. He covers a lot of overlapping territory regarding religious conflicts in Britain in his books on that nation.
(I won't give those complete titles, once again, as they've been cited in several earlier posts, ok?)
It is clear to me that the title is sort of a hook, upon which our author is hanging
everything he wants to cover on European history.
Shall we plow along, and not worry about Rembrandt?

I read ahead too, Mippy, and I agree Schama is more history than art at this point. As far as I'm concerned, that's fine because I like history. I suppose you could make the argument events shape the artists. Not long ago the Story of Civilization site was discussing iconoclast - in a different time and place. Whoever said history repeats itself was right on

By St.John's Eve, 1570, the long night, so the village lore prescribed, when women were free to choose partners and men were bound to comply, Anna has chosen Rubens. Stay tuned ...........
I've never heard of St.John's Eve ? Maybe something like Sadie Hawkins' Day

Emma

FINALLY back!! Sorry sorry, I've been searching for days in my old computer (never get a new computer in the fall) and finally found what I've been looking for. I only had to boot it up 3 times and try to copy (it helps if your CD is right side up?) hahaah these photos over!

By my reckoning we're on page 53? And what a sad page it is.

Anybody who has been to Canterbury or walked thru the Abbey at Hastings can only wonder at the devastation wrought in the name of religion. I am surprised, I mean I guess I don't really know what the Calvinists are, but I know Henry VIII became so incensed at the veneration of the body of Thomas a Becket in the crypt at Canterbury he had him moved away, the steps there are worn thin with the feet of the pilgrims. And all of the windows which pertained to him were ordered destroyed. One remains because those destroying it did not realize it was he.

Also the monasteries, all those remnants of Catholicism, Henry thought he was stamping out abuses and look what he did, and yet…and yet Henry VIII was a religious man who attended church every day till the day he died. It's hard for us to understand. It's hard for me to read this in this book or to understand anybody machine gunning down statues of Buddha which were …thousands of years old? It's just unthinkable.

Are we more enlightened in 2005 or? Maybe not?

I can't imagine what the people who did this kind of destruction must have felt like the next day, you can't tell me that in their hearts they did not know they were wrong. I see that as page 53 ends the new day dawns in Antwerp, "ashen with repentance."

I think this is going to be a VERY interesting book. And didn't it say in the middle of it something about Rubens attempting (Jan that is) to stop this? Interesting. Yes, Mippster, let's go forward, tho we may fear to tread here!

Think of the medieval illuminated manuscripts destroyed! WHY? They destroyed their own scriptures, I'm sure they could not read well enough to tell the difference, what a shame!!

And yet, this, caught my eye?

Page 51: …the Church of Our Dear Lady processed through the city streets along a route that head been prescribed in 1399. At their center a littler carried by twenty men bore a statue of the Madonna brilliantly painted, her face as white as a lily, gold thread embroidered through her gown.

It was the Sunday after the Assumption of the Virgin, usually the most elaborate of Antwerp's public festival.

Besides the sacred images, the street processions usually featured spectacle for the people: floats of galiots and sea monsters; traveling towers and smoking dragons; giants , tumblers and wild beasts—hippopotami carted by clowns.

Now isn't that something? Each year in Bruges, Belgium, a city in West Flanders not far from Antwerp, on Ascension Day, they have a procession they have been having since 1303, the Procession of the Holy Blood, which commemorates the bringing of this relic to the town in the 2nd Crusade. It's a real medieval pageant and has to be seen to be believed.

There are hundreds and hundreds of costumed marchers, floats, and each passing scene tells, in true Medieval form, the entire story of the Bible from Adam and Eve to the Resurrection, and the history of the city thru the ages, the players in the costume of the centuries which pass, acting out the parts. There are herds of sheep, camels, close to several hundred horses decked out in all sorts of costume, marching right up to the sidewalks, Knights, pageantry, it's unreal, floats, people in the dress of the times, pipers, drummers, it's just the most magical thing you ever saw. They carry out huge relics, shrines and altar pieces,

one year there was one wooden one SO large that many men strained to lift it, I would say there were 8 men carrying and more acting to rush in as substitutes, and they'd have to set it down and assistants ran to prop it up with folding wooden braces, so that they could switch off carrying it. It was tremendous, and looked centuries old.

This last shot shows a carillon drawn by horses

And as it passed the man played it. I think I must have 200 photos, I wish I could show them all but it's exactly like what he's described (but no hippos, there WERE clowns). It's like seeing history come to life, and was exactly what Schama is writing about here! I am not sure what it is that draws me to this pageant every year, but it's different every year and well worth seeing.

of course Bruges

is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful cities in Europe, I just love it and it's not far from all of this horror we are reading about.

So we have to ask ourselves, how did this tradition survive in Bruges? Here's a link to a site in Belgian, maybe somebody can read it, but it does show some great stuff: Festival of the Holy Blood, Bruges, Belgium

I need now to read more about this area and this horror, and to see (maybe Schama will say) how far this awful destruction continued. I would also like to know if the Onze Lieve Vrouwekerk is still standing. In Edit! hello? Oh yes indeed it's still there and guess what's in it? Guess? I see what Schama is doing now! (I think)

So it looks like page 54 for us tomorrow, were you surprised at the ferocity of these attacks on a church? Were you surprised to hear about it in Belgium? They don't seem particularly a war like people or do they? What DO we know about Belgium and Amsterdam? I am not sure I have heard of this, coming as it seems to from the people themselves and not some ruler, somebody refresh (I seem to be batting -100 today) my memory of history on this, I am shocked, to put it mildly?

What were your thoughts on this series of pages? Is this news to YOU?

Ginny ~ fantastic photos, thanks. Do you go there often ? Wish I could have been there to see the pageant.

Thanks Ginny, loved the photos. It always puzzles me the things people do in the name of religion. Like you, I had no idea such destruction took place in Belgium. I guess many of the Dutch were unhappy with Spanish domination and hated all things Spanish [including Catholicism]. I was under the impression after the Spanish were later ousted from the Netherlands, the Dutch became very tolerant of different religions. The destruction of the magnificent art work may have contributed to this tolerance.

Thank you EmmaBarb, I have been going once a year, because I like it so much, but I only learned of the Procession 2 years ago and have gone twice, it's magic and was different both times. I don't want to turn this into a travelogue but you can see them talking about the exact same thing on page 51, that just blew me away. This past year it had started out drizzling so they didn't carry the huge wooden pieces but the sun came out and it was glorious. There were a couple of fractious horses, and the Japanese tourist next to me got up scrambled out of the way, I had foolishly rented a chair right ON the street, I'll take the second row next time haahaha The shopkeepers put out chairs to rent along the way, they are 5 Euros and the thing lasts forever, so it's well worth it. It's quite impressive.

Thank you Suec, and I'm like you I had no idea and it looks like on page 54 it's going to not only continue but escalate. I believe you might be right about the reaction to so much destruction, too.

It seems that while Margaret was signing the Accord, she knew that William had planned "to use crushing military force."

That must have put some kind of kink in the marriage? Imagine the scene and how each must have felt, even tho he's apparently running around the country trying to solidify his …supporters? Is that how you took that? Kind of like the last Russian Tsar, was it Nicholas? I always thought that was so sad, and George V would not take him in, tho he appealed. Plenty of photos of the families vacationing together, they looked, the Tsar and George V, like brothers.

He must have had a reason, we really can't second guess them or understand the backgrounds fully tho Schama is giving it his all, no? hahaah

So it looks like war, and William's own brother Louis of Nassau is among the Protestant zealots so …so William sends Margaret TO the Nassau family seat?

So now we really seem to have lost sight of Rembrandt entirely? And most of our readers? Ahahahaa

What are your thoughts on THESE pages?

I'd gotten really behind-- too busy getting the train ready to leave for Middlemarch. But I've finally caught up. This part makes difficult reading, but is also very interesting. The attempt to unify the country fail,and the country is in the process of becoming Protestant. The moderation of William becomes more and more impotent, as feeling gets stronger.

Rubens is interesting here. The opposite of Rembrandt, he is in the thick of the politics. Interesting to know what he really had some sympathy with the Calvinists.

I have a feeling things will get worse, not better.

Excuse the interruption, but JoanK invited "refugees" from the "Story of Civilization." I don't have the book. Before I make a purchase decision please tell me how many pages there are?

I fast forwarded a number of sites and now have a general idea of the, shall we say, celebration. I understand that the Relic contains the blood of Christ. I haven't found anything about what actually does the "Relic" look like. It it a cup, goblet, wooden bowl - what exactly does it look like?

The 12th century was a period of great piety in Europe, and relics were in great demand. Supply apparently kept up with the demand.

http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/infopedia/b/bruges_holybloodrelic.htm

Brian

Thank you Joan, I agree, and good point, Rubens was very much involved in politics, from what I am seeing that looks like a good way to lose your head!

Welcome, Tooki, we are very glad to have you here, and thank you, Joan, for putting in a link for us.

Thank you Brian for that link also, I found it quite interesting.

The link I posted with the photo of Bruges actually HAS a photograph of the vial container on top of it Bruges Procession of the Holy Blood In the procession itself a knight goes by on horseback carrying a facsimile, holding it up before him,

to symbolize when it was brought to the town, it looks like from Brian's link in the 1100's. I know it was the Second Crusade.

I myself was confused for a long time over what it looked like since it is actually contained in a shrine, and there are so many in the pageant (it IS a religious pageant and very much in the Medieval style, something you don't see on every street corner today) that it's hard to tell where it actually is. But by serendipity (and following the crowds) I saw them actually remove it from the church where it formerly was only seen on Fridays

and here they are bringing it out.

It's kind of a Oberammergau type of thing, the townspeople take part

and people come from all over, actually. At the end distinguished personages also march and Pope John Paul II is photographed in former processions, and it's quite colorful and ….it's just amazing, and VERY much to our subject here as we've just read about the same thing in Antwerp. See next post for one more photo from this year's Procession (all of these photos in these two posts are from this years.

As to the size of the book, it's quite large, 748 pages, about the size of a piece of typing paper, glossy print, quite interesting. We'd be glad for you to join us!!

Can't resist just one more!

I figure we're now on page 56, does that seem in sinc with you all?

These two pages, to me, are fascinating in their horror. We have all heard of the Spanish Inquisition, how many of us really understand what it WAS?

Don't we think of these emerging city states as almost feudal, knights, castles, little skirmishes, vassals, lords, and yet LOOK at this thing.

It would seem man has not changed much, wouldn't it?

Non curamus privilegios vestros We care nothing for your privileges, and "We may regard the Prince of Orange as a dead man."

Looks to me like William had an impossible task, but it also appeared he tried. And it looks like Alva, in resurrecting those who were trained in the Spanish Inquisition, is about to get his way. As Joan K said, things look like they are going to get immeasurably worse.

Real religious wars.

I was shocked once in staying in Paris at a hotel which overlooked the huge church St. Germain L'Auxerrois, to hear that THAT church had been witness to a similar religious war and massacre at the same time! these things were going on!

From this site, which is quite interesting on the church Histoire St. Germain L'Auxerrois

You can read the following:

The saddest moment in the church's history was on August 24, 1572, the evening of the St. Bartholomew Massacre. The tower bells rang, signaling the supporters of Catherine de Médicis, Marguerite de Guise, Charles IX, and the future Henri III to launch a slaughter of thousands of Huguenots, who'd been invited to celebrate the marriage of Henri de Navarre to Marguerite de Valois.

This beautiful church is, as you can see, slap ON the Louvre

and the courtyard you are looking at was where this tremendous massacre took place and apparently continued throughout the nation, the rivers of France ran blood. The church is quite monumental inside, having, as you can see by the additional description, a " 15th-century triptych and Flemish retable"

So it would seem this hideous conflict between Protestant and Catholic raged throughout the European continent in the 1500's, this makes, or does it, Herny VIII's own actions less surprising, perhaps?

It's hard, I guess, for us to contemplate such a time, it conjures up all sorts of images and contemplations. When I consider history, I like to try to see where I would fit in? This sounds sort of like an anarchistic mess and war, to me, and you have to choose sides. Makes you appreciate Gandhi more, doesn't it?

Do you see any parallels in modern history to this?

And by the way, do you see another parallel in history in the date of the Massacre of the St. Bartholomew Massacre? Other than it having just passed us in 2005?

Thank you, Brian. Ginny, your photos are exciting. It’s not often we see handsome knights cantering around on white steeds, clutching the blood of Christ. I did notice the lovely art object at the top of that site, wondered what it was, and proceeded to ignore it. How clever of me.

These European “Oberammergaus” seem to be related to what in the United States are called “reenactments.” The various wars fought by and in the United States are popular subjects. One I am familiar with is called the "Omak Stampede." The Indian warriors ride their horses thunderously down the mountain to attack the U.S. Army soldiers. The scenario had to be changed because the young Indian males, all expert horsemen, still managed to hurt themselves.

August 24th was the 60th anniversary of the Japanese surrender. Should there be a reenactment of that?

756 pages! It will take as long as reading “The Age of Faith.”

Ginny ~ thank you so much for the photos and comments with them. I'm discovering (with interest) things I never realized.

Yup! I reckon we're on page #56, and tomorrow, Tuesday, September 6th, we'll deal with page #57. Schama is sure one deliberate dude.

Brian

Thanks so much for the photos - the colors are wonderful and the comments interesting.

I found an audio clip of Prof.Schama on a BBC website from one of his lectures but unfortunately it required RealPlayer which I uninstalled from this computer because of all the problems with it. Does anyone have an audio clip using Windows Media Player ? That player works great for me. I've seen pictures of him but would like to know how he sounds when he speaks.
Emma

EMMA: if you remember where the site was, could you post the link here?

JoanK ~ yes, I had to look for it again. I think this was it click here and then on "Play the clips"

Thanks. I can just do it, although with my slow browser, it stops has to stop every few seconds and rload.

Schama looks just like I imagine Casaubon in Middlemarch to look.

OH I LOVE that! I love that, EmmaBarb, how on earth did you ever find it? I have a 33.2 modem and it's playing like a DVD I love it. I love the way he sounds and looks!!! Mine is playing on Real Player.

OH!!

Thank you, Suec, Tooki and EmmaBarb, I am glad you enjoyed the photos. I had never heard of the "Omak Stampede!!" See what you can learn in a Rembrandt discussion. I also did not know that August 24 was the Anniversary of the Surrender of Japan! But there are stranger things being reenacted, I think.

I am not sure that Religious Pageants and Military Reenactments are the same thing, tho I guess you could argue the point.

I actually had a sort of strange experience with a military reenactment , last year actually. I had gone to Normandy Beach for the D Day ceremonies, I was in Paris at the time and just happened to get on a bus going out full of WWII vets, it was really wonderful, but anyway, on the way out I looked down at a car passing on the right and it was a WWII jeep with a star on it and people dressed like soldiers of the era, I really jumped and for just a minute it seemed to go back in time. But only for a minute. Apparently there are SERIOUS WWII Re-enactors, they had camps and it was really something else. But the most interesting thing of the day was remarked on to me by the son of one of the Veterans on Omaha Beach who said he found it a bit odd that he was meeting so many Germans in US WWII uniforms.

Those gun turrets are still there and are quite frightening in their view of those beaches.

At any rate, that was not what I was thinking of but rather the Eruption of Vesuvius on August 24, 79 AD.

Well! Let's find our feet here, thank you for that EmmaBarb, we must have that in the heading, I could listen to him all day. You don't suppose, do you, that he's available on audio tapes, that he reads THIS book?!!?? I would kill to listen to him read this book!

Back in a second! By Brian's reckoning we're up to page 58 today! I'll change the heading, have been swamped with Latin and Greek students on opening day, what a joy!!

Well now pages 57 and 58 are quite dramatic, aren't they, they almost read like a drama and I guess it was. He "didn't go to church," and he had been an alderman (why all this time have I thought MARGARET was a protestant? Am I the only one confused here?) Apparently not?!?

And then on the top of page 59 the good alderman exaggerates the truth a little bit.

I don't know whether or not it's because I've heard Simon Schama speak but suddenly all of this has taken on a lot of fascination.

I can't imagine how they thought to torture people and get any kind of true confession, did you read about those tortures? Ghastly.

9,000 people detained, that is a LOT of people and never to cease fearing about their roof breaking in over their heads.

What are your thoughts on this portrait of the times? I had no idea that the SPANISH Inquisition had gotten so far.

And I see it called Cologne, but it's also called Koln, have you ever been there? I have, it's quite interesting, that's where the boats leave to cruise down the Rhine to Bacharach, and the Cathedral is to die for. We actually attended an organ concert in the Cathedral, I have not seen another like it. In between the pieces a priest rose and read or preached (It was in German and I don't know what he said) but it was quite nice to attend an organ recital in a church where they obviously wanted it to be of religious service. I don't believe I have ever seen that before. It's a magnificent cathedral and organ.

What's the story of Cologne? Why are there two names and which name is preferred today?

Have any of you ever been to Bacharach?

Let's talk about the events and the places in the book! And what picture you are getting of Jan Rubens (and why you think we're reading about him at all?)

Well tell me please (since I'm not able to play the Schama audio clips).....does he sound like an Englishman ? There are audio books of his writings but they're read by someone other than Prof. Schama.

Ginny ~ I've never been to Bacharach or the city of Cologne. You certainly do travel to some very interesting places.....places I will never go but enjoy hearing about and seeing photos.
Emma

I have a confession. I started reading the chapter on Jan and Maria and couldn't put it down until I finished it. What a story! The stuff soap operas are made of. I won't give it away, but I have to say Maria certainly was a devoted wife. I guess it doesn't have to lot to do with Rembrandt - but it was interesting and gives a feeling for the times and morals. There certainly is a contrast between Maria and Anne of Saxony.

What a great link EmmaBarb. Thanks. I almost forgot what a wonderful website BBC has. BBC radio has wonderful programs - short stories, interviews, series, etc., etc. When the weather gets cold and I'm stuck in the house, I'll have to listen to it again.

The torture connected with Christianity deserves a brief explanation. Most explanations are really legalistic, unfathomable, and boring. Here's a short one that may help.

"The reintroduction of judicial torture into continental law occurred in the later Middle Ages and coincided with the efforts of monarchs to create centralized states over against the local autonomy of feudalism. At the same time the Roman Church was centralizing its administrative controls. Lamentably, ancient Roman Imperial law became the model for both civil and canon law. The sad irony is that the very faith that had once been the victim of persecution, now approved of the very methods once used against it to now tackle non-orthodox belief. These developments also coincided with the weakening and waning of the old social order in medieval Europe."

As far as I understand, Roman Law, ergo Canon Law, was biased against the defendant. Sort of guilty until proven innocent. Note that Inquisitional torture always had the approval of the Church.

Here's a link with some nice information. The Romans named it in 50 A.D., as their colony, hence Cologne.

City of Cologne

I have also read ahead, and am sorry to be such an infrequent poster.
I've been reviewing a lot of Latin to prepare for Latin 200, and have been away from Books & Lit.

I think this section implies that the sins of the fathers heavily affect the entire lives of the sons.
That is not one of my favorite psychological theories.
I'll be glad when we return to a discussion of art, not of religious wars.

TOOKI: yes, the Romans used to torture Christians to get them to renounce their faith: later we see the same thing by Christians. It sometimes seems as if we humans never learn!!

I finished the chapter on Jan and Maria....that whole chapter could be made into a tv movie. I see now why Prof. Schama thought it important. I am now anxious to get back to Sir Peter Paul Rubens' art (hopefully).

Cologne is French and the border was moved (they used to do that all the time) into Germany and became Koeln (means the same thing).

tooki -- thanks for the explanation.

Mippy ~ that's a great site on the City of Cologne.

JoanK ~ I have often thought....why don't we learn from history.

Emma

Simon Schama surely speaks with an English accent - - - all the time!

There is an excellent mini-biography in Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Schama

Brian (It takes one to know one:).)

Adrbri (Brian) - - I'll bet Simon Schama can turn it up a notch when he wants to.....he's lived in the U.S. a long time

I can do a fairly good Scottish brogue when it's needed, too.

brian

Love the comments here, I apologize for my absence but since this is NOT a class (how can it be, I know less than any of you about this subject) please DO feel free to carry on yourselves, commenting on each page per day should I be unavoidably delayed?

suec, I have to agree with you, this would make a soap opera in extreme, I'm amazed that somebody hasn't done one.

What amazes you all most about this section?

I'm amazed at all the passion going on between these stolid Flemish burghers! I can't get over this. Look at William writing letters even while Anna, in what must have been an AMAZING bit of freedom is actually flirting, by herself and ridiculing him.

Is SHE a Miss America? Apparently not? She is "without beauty, charm or sense, afflicted with curvature of the spine, a spiteful, screaming shrew, a drunk with an itch in her linen.." (page 60).

And yet her husband writes her the most loving letters?

??

Was that letter writing a type of the time? Would this happen TODAY?

I can't get over it.

And SHE'S not going down with him, oh no. Wither thou goest, forget that. Why does he WANT her?

Oh I agree, I love that Schama tape, I could listen to him and watch him all day long, yes SO British, to me?

Tooki, thank you for this The reintroduction of judicial torture into continental law occurred in the later Middle Ages and coincided with the efforts of monarchs to create centralized states over against the local autonomy of feudalism.

Feudalism and how it changes is a fascinating subject for me and I was not getting the connection, thank you!

Mippy , thank you for that wonderful link to the city of Cologne, with all the subsets, I must admit I spent quite a while on them!

JoanK, I agree and it seems we haven't learned anything actually, doesn't it?

Is it because we really don't KNOW our history and then are doomed to repeat it?

I'm glad we're reading this because now I believe I understand Eleanor of Aquitaine, of all people, a bit better. Some of these women, apparently like Anna, devoid of…? Still managed to get their own way. There's a lesson! What has she got that I don't? Why do I think it's connections? Money? Property? She doesn't seem to have anything else going?

Of course people asked that about Wallis, the Duchess of Windsor, too, is William the Silent another Edward VIII?

EmmaBarb, I do now see, too, why this was included and am glad of it, tho it does seem strange at first. Thank you for explaining Koeln the name, I love the way they say that.

Brian, thank you for the Wikipedia biography, he's something else, isn't he!

Well now, how now, we have a pregnant Anna and Jan has expressed his desire for forgiveness to his own wife whose response was I hope you will love me as before and forgives him.

Boy these women were made of stronger stuff back then, or was it the times? Was it more precarious? Are you having some problems understanding their attitudes here? Or? Or what of William the Silent? What do you make of his relationship with the shrew?

I love that chapter ii Atonement where Schama goes into the mind of Maria, that's well done. He captures the times quite well, no cell phones no planes, I loved that.

Let's discuss the book today and anything in these first, can it BE 63 pages you'd like??

Did you catch that the confession and repentance was accompanied by instructions on how to keep it quiet? Hahha Well I can't blame him, his offense was against her and the children and he was trying to protect them, much like William was trying to protect his own reputation and children.

If they had had paparazzi then there might have been a different outcome? Sometimes I wonder what the PRESS is doing to the world, do you?

What are any thoughts that came to you today on reading anything in our new section? Let's hear from you on your thoughts!

And in what language?
If we don't know our history, we are doomed to repeat it?
I was reading a novel of Roman times earlier, where the author thought Cicero said this first! Of course, now I can't find the page.
My husband thought it was usually attributed to Sanatana, a guru of Hinduism.
But was it in Latin, earlier, or perhaps even Greek? Any ideas?

I don't know where Santayana found the quotation about history and having to repeat it, but it was Winston Churchill who said "A nation that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it".

He also said that he would be kindly dealt with, by history - - - "as I intend to write it!!"

Brian

Santayana is the source of the quote, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." It's from Life of Reason, “Reason in Common Sense,” ch. 12 (1905-6).

for correcting my mistake, not only spelling but the whole quote.
However, perhaps Ginny will know if it was originally said by a Roman author.

I found a page that says that Confusicius said the same thing that Santyana said in different words.

Here is a link to the page.

Why study History

Many people have said it since Santyana said it. He is the one that I always credited to when I was teaching Advanced placement European History.

Joan Grimes

Maybe - - - Santayana, and Truman, and Churchill - - - and "many others" - - - repeated what Confucius had said a few years before them.

P.S. What page are we on?

Brian

We're on page 66 today, have just changed the heading and I'm wondering what you all might think about trying to be Weekend Warriors for a few weeks, just to see if we like that? Of course you could still comment every day and we'd still be reading a page a day but it seems to me after 66 days hahaah that we might find 7 pages on the weekend more to talk about than one?

What do you all think? This BEING the weekend I'm ready thru Page 67 in the morning? I like different things, are you game?

Gee on the quote I just don't know. On the one hand my Bartlett's says Santyana for the "repeat" history part yet it does appear a lot of people said it and I keep thinking there WAS something in antiquity but unfortunately I just can't think of it, but let's all keep looking, it wasn't phrased that exact way, so I guess that phrase goes to the sources cited here, but I do sort of remember something of the sort, sure enough.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4252568.stm

Brian

Adrbri(Brian) = Oh wow, that's great news about the stolen Rembrandt self-portrait being recovered. Those people have to be really stupid thinking a painting that well known could be sold.

Sounds like a good idea to me, Ginny.

Finally, "Pietro Paolo Rubens" (Prof. Schama had me going there for a minute).

Thanks Emmabarb, it went completely over my head.

"Pictor Doctus", a scholarly painter or scholar artist, [Pictor is Latin for easel ... right Latin students ?]
Rembrandt mystery: Woman in fur... when Rembrandt-expert Ernst Van de Wetering, Chairman of the Rembrandt Research Project, saw the painting he recognized something far more important than her dress.

Oh do tell, what what? I need to catch up with you, today we're on page 73 and since we said we'd be Weekend Warriors and report IN on the weekends (and any other time we'd like during the week, I'll be right back!)

Yes pictor in Latin is the word for painter.

marvelle has just posted a link in the Book Nook to the British Library's sort of electronic pages, and one goes to the "Flemish Masters," if you are able to see it, do see her post, I'm having to install something about ShockWave, so I can't say about the Flemish thing, but I would love to see it.

Ginny ~ oh I'd love to see the Flemish thing too that marvelle posted a link to but I always have a problem when told to download those ShockWave things to view it

Prof. Schama uses a lot of latin doesn't he, but in those days they used it a even more. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have had Shockwave software on my computer since it first came out,
together with the Flash Player.

These two work well together, and have caused me no problems.
They can be simply downloaded from
http://sdc.shockwave.com/shockwave/download/download.cgi?
and are free to use, and probably suffice for all our multimedia needs.

As for the post by marvelle referring to the British Library site,
it is a revelation. What a marvellous site !! Thanks Ginny, for bringing it to our notice.

The Flemish "thing" is an Hour Book, and does not really relate to our Rembrandt's Eyes
But the technology in creating a book that one can read without having to visit
a Museum and wear special gloves is a gift from heaven.

I especially enjoyed leafing through the original version of Alice in Wonderland.
The ability to read a text version, to hear the book being read, and to magnify any part
of the page on the screen, should surely overcome any compunction you may have
in downloading the Shockwave, EmmaBarb

Brian (thrilled to bits!)

I am so glad you enjoyed that, Brian, and the British Library, as I said in the Book Nook, has an entire room in the rare books section there, downstairs, where it's full of computers and you go in and you can digitally turn the pages of many illuminated manuscripts and Books of Hours, it's just magic and they even tell you about them in audio as well.

EmmaBarb, I had a problem actually with my own computer and that and Norton Security went nuts, I hope it's fixed!

Golly moses what an exciting book, once you start to read it it's hard to put down.

I was delayed this weekend and now have returned but what a book.!!

First we have the strange combination of politics and lust, and the truly moving story of Maria and Jan, who seems to have violated his parole? Boy if she is not the paragon of wifely virtue I don't know who was, and I have never HEARD of her, have any of you?

Now we have the country divided in half, with the Protestants at the top and the Catholics at the bottom, and Rubens not allowed in the 17 Netherlands states. That makes sense, I expect William wouldn't have wanted him around, I think Rubens was lucky, do you?

Stand by your man takes on new meaning with her, these medievalist characters surprise me, do they you, with their modern passions and emotions?

Poor little la fillette heck of a life for a child just because of the sins of the fathers, but holy smoke, what of WILLIAM!!

That's the most fascinating and detailed account of Jan Rubens's parole, I think I ever read, I'm so glad somebody somewhere kept a record of it.

But WILLIAM!! Shot in the FACE? A bounty on his head from Philip II? A lead pellet pressed into the wound and then teams of attendants physically pressing on the wound?

Have you ever in your life?

"This pestilent Orange will never be done with his dying," indeed! They were made of heartier stock back then! I can't imagine how the poor man lived!

Then we have Antwerp: "Saints Everywhere"

I can't seem to find the beautiful carved photo of a street light in Antwerp, do any of you have any photos of Antwerp, some of the details of the city are spectacular.

What do you know of Saints Particular and Familiar? I'm not sure Schama explains the meaning of those terms, tho the awfulness of the saints's deaths certainly resonates. Have you ever seen any of those medieval illustrations? Have you ever read the Lives of the Saints? I had not read it until I became an adult but it was horrifying, the martyrdom of some of the saints. Well if you go into the Catacombs, you can find the same type of thing also the St. Cecelia Cycle panels in Venice are just spectacular as well.

But my goodness, poor Antwerp, at the mercy of 3 days assault, thousands attacked, hundreds murdered and plunder from an army run amok. I must say that I have never heard of these awful things but it does show human nature hasn't changed much, doesn't it? That was, (I had to read on to the top of page 74) the abandoned Spanish forces, wreaking vengeance. Golly moses.

We're today on page 73, and it was not only not a bad read, not a difficult read, but was engrossingly interesting, but we do need to discuss the book, what do you all think about anything up to and including page 73??

I missed that part of Saints Particular and Familiar

Maybe one needs a particular saint for a particular thing and once you get to know them they become familiar (just a thought).
I've not read the Lives of the Saints.
I'm discovering history not before know to me.

I wonder how many of the original posters of this book discussion are still with us ?

Happened onto this document by Simon Schama some of you might find interesting as I did.
Emma

That was a most interesting and informative site.

Another site which is full of facts about the "position" of Rembrandt in the hierarchy of painters
is : - Rembrandt and his Critics http://www.serve.com/Lucius/Rembrandt.index.html

from which this etching is derived : - http://www.serve.com/Lucius/scanRemSGirl.jpg

Brian
P.S. you can see that you and I, at least, are "still around" - - - I have a feeling that many more are
still with us. lurking & reading without comment.

Brian - much thanks for that link, will check it out.

You all are going to think I am nuts. I just saw the PBS documentary about Bob Dylan, and he reminded me of -- the young Rembrandt!!

Not in the details of what he did or his ability to articulate the feelings of a generation. But in the following

As a young man, he was a chameleon. He would observe other people and make himself into that person. Like Rembrandt dressing up in various costumes, Dylan at first made up various personnas for himself. He had so many different versions of who he was, it's not clear that he didn't believe them.

He started out as a "doppelganger" to Woodie Guthrie, just as Scama claimed Rembrandt started as a doppelganger to Rubens. But he moved so far into his own sense of what he wanted to do, that by 1966 (when the documentary ended) he was being booed. he went on doing what he did, even though no one wanted it, just as Rembrandt, at the end of his career, was painting great paintings that no one would buy.

Interesting?

Rubens....and....Rembrandt....art history on stamps.

Y'all may have noticed that recent posts have not been following too closely with the daily readings
of our chosen book, and it is often difficult to recognize which page we have "reached".

I do not believe that this is because, as a group, we are not doing our homework.

Personally, I will be glad when the obfuscation by Schama - - - previously I had posted that
"Schama sure is one deliberate guy" and "he has rambled on at unnecessary length" - - - has passed through
the system, and we can return to the study of Rembrandt and that eye of his.

While I freely concede that we need to know a little about the other things happening around him (Rembrandt) I am not interested in the minutiae of Reubens and his errant relatives.

Brian.

Me three. I want to talk about his paintings. I

Ha!! We finally get some art on page 78. But what art!! I needed a magnifying glass to see anything at all, and then I couldn't make it all out. I share Schama's respect for the craftsmanship those woodcuts must have taken. But artistically? What do you all think? Does anyone read German, and can read what they say?

It will be interesting when we get to Ruben's paintings to see how we think they influenced him.

Sorry, I seem to have sandwiched an 'E' into Rubens! Mea culpa.

Brian

hahaa well here we are, and our Weekend Warriors well assembled and talking about more interesting things than the book is at this point. I really felt in this last bit, that it was just too much. I have lost interest in Maria, and these last 7 pages have not really reignited it, but I can understand why.

I think Schama must have so MUCH knowledge that it pains him to leave out this or that interesting bit, and truly the story of Jan and Maria WAS interesting but another 7 pages of mostly… I must admit the eye wandered on this last bit, and we have Peter Paul (mind you, Rubens, not Rembrandt) at 12 apprenticed. Well good, but hey! Hahaahaa

Those wood cuts are priceless, tho, aren't they? Can you imagine (tiny as they ARE) actually trying to do one? One of the most satisfying things I ever did was try a wood block, it was wonderful, but of course nothing on earth like this! I did like his description of Isaac from the back and he DOES manage to look vulnerable and again another artist I had never heard of , I wouldn't mind having a book of his work (a little larger PLEASE!) hahahaah or as they used to say " if you please."

I was listening to a very old Sherlock Holmes broadcast and Basil Rathbone (this one apparently just unearthed) uses the expression "if you please," which Dickens uses also, quite a bit. At any rate, I'm going to look into a book of plates of Stimmer, love what he's done, and unfortunately, Joan K, no I don't read German, somebody somewhere must have translated them tho. I CAN see that the lines are in the form of a poem. Maybe we can scan them in and see if Traude S. can read them, she's German? I'll give it a try.

EmmaBarb, thank you for the stamps, love that and there's one that's "sarcastic," I liked that one too, and thank you for the super article, I printed that one, there's no doubt that Professor Schama knows his stuff, but I personally at this point would wish for a bit less on the Rubens family and a bit more on Rembrandt, but I'm sure there's a good reason.

Joan K, I also was struck by the young Bob Dylan, I am not sure that I made the Rembrandt Connection, but I could hardly recognize him, makes one feel quite old, and now that you mention it of course, the resemblance is remarkable!

Thank you, Brian for those two links, Rembrandt and his Critics and that ETCHING!! Interesting and powerful!

Well me 4, on the current reading matter, tho I did like William's little joke about the bald and the Calvanists, but eheu, it appears poor William was finally assassinated, finally done in, having survived a lot more than most people would have. I think a life of William might be interesting to read.

I really think maybe the odd reference to these interesting happenings might have sufficed, but let's read on and see if there is a reason for this fulsome set of what appear to be extraneous descriptions.

So today we're on page 79 and by next weekend we'll be on page 86, hopefully moving into the world of Rembrandt, but I must say I truly had no idea that the Netherlands had been such a war torn entity with so much history, so we've learned that much anyway. When DOES Rembrandt reappear? (She asked hopefully?)

Meanwhile I'll scan in those wood cuts and see if Traude will translate them for us. What thoughts do you all have other than when is he going to get to the point? hahahaaha

OK here are the four of them, first the one on the top left

and the text which pertains to Cain and Able, Woodcut, 1576, and here's the text

see next post:

I don't think these are much help because to conform to SN guidelines you have to make them so small and compress them so much you can barely make it out, but anyway here's

The Sacrifice of Isaac and the German:

I'll go see if Traude can shed some light on this!

I'm still trying to see the soles of Isaac's feet. These are definitely not for the vision-challenged.

I definitely think Schama is the King of the Kingdom of Unnecessary Detail. The first time I read the book, I think I skipped a bit here and there.

But at last we have Rubens studying art, under a mediocre hack, it would seem. Obviously, it didn't hold him back!! What if Maria hadn't let him do that? Would his artistic genius have burst out anyway? We'll never know.

On Bob Dillon: I was in Israel when Dillon was singing, so never heard him until that program the other day (the Israelis used to play Pete Sieger on busses, so I had heard him).

But it's nice to find out 40 years later that you were right about something I went to Israel after being active in the Civil Rights movement. In Israel, one of my adult English students wrote "Blowing in the Wind" on the blackboard and asked if I could teach them this "protest song". For some reason, I got mad. "That's not a protest song" I said." You can't sing that while you're picketing, or sitting in or rallying -- it's too complicated. Whoever wrote that has never been on a protest". (I taught them "We shall Overcome" and "We will not be moved").

Now, it seems I was right. According to Joan Baez, Dylan never went to the protests. (Now I love "Blowing in the Wind", but it's still not a protest song).

Tobias Stimmer, two woodcuts -- I think Prof Schama included those because they were available from the Avery Library at Columbia University (IMHO). I wasn't able to find any reference to them on the Net.

Pietro Paola Rubens -- he used to sign his "letters" that way. Has anyone found one of Rubens' letters anywhere to authenticate this ?

Ginny ~ Good job on the woodcut scans even with SrNet image restrictions. I love the borders. A little interesting bit of news I watched on the TV the other day. The U.S. Post Office is offering to print postage stamps with your favorite person on it. How about that !

Emma

There is an excellent article http://gallery.euroweb.hu/tours/german/prints.html
discussing print making (Stimmer is mentioned in the last line)

Regarding the translations of the two tracts attached to Stimmer's biblical woodcuts
on Page 79, I am unable to translate directly, but the clue is Genesis Chapter 4, for the story of
Cain and Abel, and Genesis Chapter 22, for Abraham's sacrifice of his son Isaac.

GINNY, the German text on the woodcuts appears to be written in mittelhochdeutsch = middle high German. The first inscription refers to the story of Cain and Abel (Genesis 4, 2-16), the second to the story of Abraham and Isaac (Genesis 22, 1-14) in my copy of the Oxford Study Edition of the New English Bible with the Apocrypha used in the Anglican Church.

The words and meaning of the passages are clear - despite the outdated formulation and spelling. But it is impossible to translate them literally and specifically into an English as it was spoken at that period in time. It is similarly impossible to reproduce the rhyme in the first text.

At your request I have tried and done my best.

Because Abel's offer pleases God
Cain slays his brother dead:
The LORD punishes him all his life long/
That he runs trembling/is afraid:
Cain's urge is the beginning of the church.

As Abraham is on the lookout/
Willing to even sacrifice his son/
The Angel calls/ that he has heard/
A ram is given him instead/
What GOD approveth, he preserveth.

Why Traude, thank you SO much, isn't that interesting, middle high German, who knew? We all appreciate that, very much!

Thank you Brian also for the reference, Stimmer seems sort of a dark horse here, doesn't he?

How neat to know what it says, many thanks, Traude!!

Than you, Traude. How interesting. I wonder if those beautiful letters were also carved in woodblock.

Traude S. - thanks for your translation.
Does anyone have a date for the Stimmer woodcuts ?

1576 I think, EmmaBarb, imagine a moment how long it took to CARVE those borders and tiny details. Makes that poignant little back even more so.

I don't know, Joan, about the letters being carved! How can we find out? Surely NOT? OR?

Carved letters or no, they are amazing! When we get to Ruben's paintings, it will be interesting to see what he took from them.

Meanwhile, we are learning about the father of Ruben's third art teacher (or am I a page ahead? Gee, I don't want to spoil the suspense!)

-- bad Isabella -- the "she-wolf" of France. Oh oh I'm getting a little ahead

If it's the 10th it must be….page 87~~

YES!!

Golly you sure are, I kept waiting for the she wolf and never saw her but I must admit here my eyes are really glazing over this Cast of Thousands with no End in Sight.

Gosh it makes you wonder if your own mind is going, another page full of people and their families and relations and careers, capital letter after capital letter and you struggle just to figure out who they ARE and, more importantly, how they relate to REMBRANDT, and...and... here we go again, now we're leaving the last tutor, name has already faded in my memory and behold we have a new one: van VEEN!

A Vanius!

Sorry to be late, missed the weekend, lots going on in the vineyard this time of year but hist! We're approaching page 100 by next weekend I believe we should breakout a celebration!

I do see that Latin on page 80 again, pictor doctus, that pictor is one thing our Latin students know well!

Interesting section on the bottom of page 80 as to what was acceptable in church art and what was not? Acts historically visible were ok, love that distinction and it does make sense!

And interesting how the debate on landscape versus portrait comes up on page 83, I have heard that was quite a storm.

(Can you believe there was ever anybody with the name Coninxloo?)

What of that self portrait of Otto van Veen? Imagine trying to get all those people to SIT, this was not in the age of photographs, it's a nice family grouping of the "traveler come home," but what must it have taken to pose it? And it's got so much movement, too! That small grouping to the left of the easel, it seems the minute you focus on one figure, the other moves, have you noticed that?

I kind of like that but apparently art critics don't, witness the statement on page 85, that Rubens's paintings from the 1590's are "therefore, necessarily third hand productions, filtered either through van Veen's awkward efforts at synthesizing a Roman and Flemish manner…" or Italian designs.

Well at this point I don't know enough about Rubens and HIS art to say. And The Fall of Man must wait till tomorrow, I take it that's the large Adam and Eve on page 86?

OH why not read ahead!

Yes it's based on Raphael 's design and Raimondi's engraving, so THAT'S thirdhand but surely all the others aren't?

Then he added landscapes and portraiture.

" Where is the mark of Rubens here? In the flushed tint he has applied to the inside of Adam's ear, and to his eyelids and lower lip…"

And so young Rubens is embarked at 21 with his own pupils, in a Guild and collaborating with van Veen for a while longer.

Well, that's nice but where is Rembrandt?

Boy I tell you, when we get TO Rembrandt all this better have been worth the journey!

Ahahaha

What are your thoughts on the art or these 7 or is it 8 pages or on anything else in our section this week?

I personally like that van Veen with his family, what was your reaction to it?

Ginny ~ I think we should hand-out certificates to those who are still sticking with the book

Well I missed that name Coninxloo reference.
I don't think all those people sit at one time to have a family portrait painted.....would be next to impossible. Today artists take a photo along the stages of the painting as a reference and also borrow their outfits, jewelry etc. for fine detail and the faces and hands can all be painted later. And a final sitting in case of anything the client wants changed. I imagine in those days of Van Veen there were lots of sketches done first on paper then transferred to the panel or canvas.
I happen to prefer the Flemish over Italian painters.

Oh dear, my confusion. The Isabella (she-wolf of France) was married to Edward II (I think). This Isabella was married to Albert. Sorry about that

Well we're finally getting into the influences that shaped Peter Paul Rubens' life.

I'm not too impressed with Otto Van Veen - court painter. What is the translation for "Otho Venivs or Octavio Vaenius" ? Is this Latin for Otto Van Veen ?
Emma

YEAH. We finally have a painting by Rubens. What do you art experts think of it?

The way poor Adam is standing, he looks like he's trying to do a yoga pose. Poor guy. No wonder his fig leaf is slipping! (couldn't resist that).

To me, the picture looks awkward, but Rubens is mastering his trade. He can draw and the figures are expressive (if Adam doesn't fall over). We don't get to see the colors, but there will be plenty of color later.

There is too much here before we get to Rembrandt.

Having broken the rules,[not Ablative Absolute -- don't ask]
the reader will find the beginning of the section on Rembrant ahead a few score pages ... 4 score and 10?
Now Rembrandt! there is the painter we have been waiting for!

Schama's style of writing is overwhelming, but I plan to persevere.

Sorry I had to drop out of this, with a fractured wrist I can't lift the book..!! greetings to all Colkot

Oh, no!!! I hope Scama didn't fracture your wrist!

I keep my book open on a table so I only have to turn a page.

Mippy: don't sell Rubens short. he's pretty good, too.

Dr. Schama,
It's a problema
Why is this book so long?
The details are great
But you obfuscate
With this or that woman done wrong.

Sigh.

Emma I have no idea what Vaenius means, how can we find out, I thought he said it was genius or something? I wonder if it's a Dutch word? I don't see anything in the Latin dictionary like it but I WAS startled to see "vae" which is used today in Italian as an expression of pain or dread today it means sort of get away from me, if I understand that use correctly.

. Colkot, so sorry about your fractured wrist, that's awful, and so painful, hope you feel better soon!

The end of our section here talked about copying others and the Italianate school and I suddenly remembered all the photos I took at Rembrandt's house (remember him?) hahaah I forgot we're reading about him! 40 more pages? 40??

Anyway look at these models for copying:

I got that out for YOU and then saw a very familiar face there on the bottom right, which the 102's should recognize, interesting!!

Not Latin 102,
but guessing who ...
Zeus?
look here

Mippius, honoring whichever god or gods

Ginny ~ thanks so much for the photo with the model heads. Gee I have two marble heads and never thought to use them as a model......hmmmmmmm. We always had live models in art class.
Loved your poem too....so true, so true.

That's my guess, too.

Brian

It was Laocoon !!

See here http://www.loggia.com/myth/laocoon.html

All these Greek statues look alike to me, but I should have guessed from the SNAKE.

Brian.

Or from the agony. Zeus usually managed to hand it out to someone else, not himself.

As usual, I'm not quite sure where we are. Are we on the foxy portrait by Rubens? Or still on Adam about to fall on his face?

Interesting tale about Laocoon and the sea serpents. How do you pronounce "Laocoon" ?

EmmaBarb, here's the pronunciation Laocoon pronounced!

Joan according to our schedule in the discussion title line here, today being the 13th, I figure that puts us on page 90 (only 30 more to go till we get to THE MAN!!) haahahah

Brian, neato background link!!

Ginny ~ thanks, wish I could hear the word spoken (my computer freezes up on that function).
I wonder if this book is on DVD ?

- - - try "Lay - ark - O - on"

As for Schama's novellette being on DVD - - - "Dream on !!"

Brian.

haahah and I am hearing Lay ACH oh whan hahahaa either way!

DVD? Wouldn't that be super, I'd like to see that!

- - - I'll save it for my old age !!

Brian

Saint Peter: The Legacy of Popes. I found it worthwhile to wait for the flash intro movie to fully load. (Oh I wish I could visit San Antonio to see this exhibition before it leaves in Jan.'06.)
Emma

On page #87 we are told that "Rubens the emulator - - -" copied, but changed, Raphael's design for
the Fall of Man, by adding "the ubiquitous emblem of fecundity " namely the Rabbit

This emulation was common practice - - - then, and even now, - - - in artists starting out on their careers.
Indeed we have already read (on page #26 and 27) that Rembrandt copied, and changed, many
of Rubens's designs. This was a learning and growing practice. So perhaps all that we have been forced
to read about Rubens may pay off in understanding what makes "our man" such a consummate performer.

Brian

Good thinking, Brian, there you go and here WE go toward page 100!!!! See heading and back in one sec, this time next week we'll be on page 100 and we'll CELEBRATE!!

We're doing up to page 93 today!

Besides, nothing you read is ever wasted, it just seems somewhat circumlocutious

Yes, it's a known practice for art students to copy other paintings....if you're going to copy though it's best to copy the best....in my case it was "The Masters" and "The Little Masters". Very few people ever become that great. It helps to have a teacher trained in the techniques of the Masters. We had some students in our class at the academy that were always asking the teacher to show them how to paint something or other on their canvas. It turned out those people wanted one of her paintings but didn't want to have to pay full price for it.....sneaky or what ?

- - - seems somewhat stereotyped.

I wonder if he ever saw snowshoe hares, like the ones that regularly visit our garden.

These two beauties were courting in the summer, but will both be as white as the male's tail,
when winter has enveloped us.

Brian.

Adrbri - I love your shoeshoe rabbits. I've seen them in winter in Canada at a ski lodge.

I think maybe Rubens ' rabbits were an influence of Albrecht Durer (Durer was one of the great masters of the sixteenth century). I've always loved his hare and also his praying hands....two that are often copied in our pastel class.

Brian are those tame? Those are GIANT rabbits, how on earth can they survive? No dogs? GIANT.

Well now I found these pages up to page 94, to be quite interesting, even if I didn't understand half of what he said hahahaa.

What, for instance, is a pittore fiammingo ??

Why does Mantua ring a bell? Something in Shakespeare? Seems a most unpleasant spot, are the vapors gone? Have any of you been there?

I agree with this one: "…no self-respecting humanist could consider himself educated without direct experience of the remains of Roman antiquity." (page 93).

But so many tantalizing mentions of art and no pictures? I'd rather see this Guilio's giants, or any Breugel, I love Breugel, or maybe a Bosch. How about Mantegna's Triumph of Caesar?

Less words more art! I guess you could say he's painting a picture with his words, and he IS, that, loved the bit below about the pomp and circumstance!

And didn't you find it fascinating that Albert AND Isabella were both called Archdukes!! Women were not so powerless in those days as we believe, think of Eleanor of Aquitaine!

But now I found the description of the pompa introitus to be wonderful.

…arches, porticoes, stages, pavilions, and canopies went up to greet the archducal pair. Dolphins, giants, deities and dragons celebrated the Herculean prowess of Albert..

I like that polishing the silver trumpets and a triumphal entry while this Vincenzo did a sort of princely progress of his own. I like processions, parades, anything like that, very much, even now in my old age.

And then Rubens is "without pestilence." I tell you the truth I did not think those Airport Guards were going to let me ON that plane in Frankfurt, this past spring. I was not supposed to BE in Frankfurt, Alitalia was late for a connection, so I had to stay the night. Rumors abounded that they were determined to stop every sick looking person. The concerned Black agent who was apparently Caribbean kept saying are you ill? You appear ill? You seem to me to be ill? I thought he was crazy till I passed a mirror and saw my right eye, totally bloodshot, tried to squinch it up, but was without pestilence myself. Am supposed to go to Greece this March. One of our Latin students from the UK just wrote me that the BBC is reporting Avian flu in Greece, unconfirmed. That will probably do it, for me.

But the best line in the whole book is this one which begins Chapter ii: In Guilio's Shadow:

It's never a good sign when processions are what a state does best.

OUCH!! Wonder who HE is referring to? Can’t be the UK, if they lost their queen and their splendid royal processions I don't know what they'd do, it's impossible to live there, everything is SOOO expensive, what is the pound now, 2 dollars?

OUCH.

Who do you think he's referring to, I don't think this is entirely about the past here?

Guilder or even a British Pound for your thoughts?

We're going to hit 100 this next weekend, we must celebrate on Monday!!

These are snowshoe hares and not tame, though when they get used to people
they are approachable. We occasionally put out the odd carrot for them, and they
will even come up onto the patio to get them.

As for dogs, any that they cannot frighten the h*ll out of, they can easily outrun.

As for the cold, they aren't called snowshoe hares for nothing.

It's another beautiful day in Alberta. The sky is azure blue and the birds are stocking up for winter.

Brian

I had to pass this thought along although I cannot join the discussion due to time restraints. When I read the book I thought Schama was stretching it when setting up the 'rivalry' between Rubens and Rembrandt especially when Rubens wasn't in the know, however.... I think Schama used Rubens as a symbol of what Rembrandt was fighting against and for. So more of a compare/contrast?

Rubens, a great artist, but his works are ideals rather than reality and more a surface ideal. Rubens is a courtier who had to get along with everyone. Rubens created an artistic trend because the society felt comfortable with him and his work.

While Rembrandt is about the inner life (psychological) rather than the outer (surface) life. Rembrandt went solo and he was an art revolution of one....etc

So, Rubens as a symbol of the society and the art that existed during Rembrandt's time.

Don't know if this makes sense or if it makes the parts about Rubens more understandable, about why he plays such a big part in the book, but that's my take on it.

Marvelle

Marvelle, I understand what you are saying and agree completely.

pittore fiammingo ?? - - - Flemish painter.

And, I agree wholeheartedly, why mention so many other painters without giving us a sample of their works.

Brian

Marvelle: thank you: you really explained a lot in a few words (Schama should learn from you).

I agree! Welcome, Marvelle, we're glad to have your comments in any shape or form, whenever you care to make them!

We're nearing page 100 on the 23rd of October! As celebration, we'll call on everybody to make one comment about the book on the 23rd, but don't let that stop you! Don't wait for the 23rd, any comments to date on what we're reading? Thank you Brian on that definition, who knew!?! hahahaa

Since I agree with Brian, and since the subject of Caesar is dear to me I went looking for the Mantagna and found out a lot I did not know. It's not one painting it's 9. It's in the Royal Collection at one of my favorite places on earth: Hampton Court.

Here's a super and very interesting article on it: from The Guardian

Scene 9: Julius Caesar from the picture series:
The Triumph of Caesar
about 1494
Hampton Court Palace
London, England

No 198 ________________________________________ Triumphs of Caesar, Andrea Mantegna (c1485-94)

Some excerpts from the above article of interest:

In a period fascinated by the ruins of ancient Rome, Andrea Mantegna (c1431-1506) did his own research, studying Latin texts, reconstructing the remains of the classical world. In his masterpiece, the nine-canvas epic The Triumphs of Caesar, he created the first truly historical painting. Mantegna was court artist to the Gonzaga, rulers of the north Italian lakeside city of Mantua, who saw themselves as modern Caesars and claimed the classical heritage of Mantua, birthplace of the poet Virgil.

VIRGIL! I knew I had heard of Mantua before!

They made their money as mercenaries. Francesco Gonzaga, for whom Mantegna painted The Triumphs of Caesar, was a talented soldier. Mantegna commemorates his military successes in the Madonna of the Victory, in the Louvre, in which Francesco, in glistening steel armour, kneels to the Virgin in a fruit-laden bower. Mantegna's paintings are full of intelligence, thorny physicality and shocking realism, as in his painting of Christ dead on the stone slab. Just as much as in his Foreshortened Christ, he looked disturbing facts in the eye in his painting of Roman imperial might: mortality, ruin and the way history is written by the winners darken The Triumphs of Caesar.

Subject: Gaius Julius Caesar (100BC-44BC) became dictator of Rome after the brilliant military career that he wrote about in his Commentaries. He conquered Gaul in 58-50BC, invaded Britain in 55 and 54BC and triumphed in the civil war in 45BC. He was assassinated soon after but his adopted son, Octavian, established an imperial dynasty in his name, ending the Roman Republic.

The power of Mantegna's Triumphs is in what the painter does not show. Caesar returns to Rome bringing trophies, captives, standards. On one level this is a reconstruction of a Roman custom, the formal triumphal procession.

Yet there's a melancholy air to these ceremonies. The soldiers do not gloat. One bearing an empty suit of armour on a pole looks at the ground meditatively, while another - who stands under a sky blackened by a forest of cuirasses, leg armour and helmets - stops and stares sadly into space.

The unseen subject of Mantegna's painting is war; the looted statues, vases, treasure, slaves, were all obtained by slaughter. Mantegna does not let us forget the reality behind the victory. Even Caesar seems to know it.

Even Manuta gets a nod:

Mantegna's adopted home of Mantua is a much smaller place than Venice or Florence. You could call it a one-horse town, except that there are lots: horses were beloved by the ruling Gonzagas, so much so that they commissioned an entire room of painted horses in the Palazzo del Te. Mantua's cultural energy came from the court, its intellectuals and artists - not just Mantegna, but the theorist of perspective Leon Battista Alberti, and later Giulio Romano and Claudio Monteverdi. To this day the languorous city is dominated by the palaces and churches of the Gonzaga family, a sinister version of the Renaissance similar to that imagined by the 19th-century Swiss historian Jacob Burkhardt.

So! As in all things when you do your own research you learn so much! I must admit it took me a while to find Caesar, tho, lots of detail, you'd have to call this RICH! And I expect that was done by design, as we've seen in this article, Caesar was not the real focus of this painting, isn't that fascinating, what does YOUR eye linger on most?

Tomorrow's the Day! We hit page 100~ I'm ready, let's celebrate!!

These few words bring to my mind the first time the phrase was used.
The great depression. Another time in the world when chaos was replaced
by order and compassion.

http://www.nisk.k12.ny.us/fdr/ideas/portfolio/dorn/dorn.html

May our next hundred days of reading Schama be as productive.

Brian

I hope I live long enough to finish this book

I love the putti in that painting by Mantagna. Here's a pastel pencil drawing I did one time "after Rubens" of one of his pudgy little babies....

Emma

I love the putti too. They look a little more like babies than most. I like yours, too.

Whooop!!!! Page 100!! CELEBRATE!!!!

Did you think we'd ever make it? Hahaha

EmmaBarb, I love your wonderful drawing!! Thank you for sharing that, you're REALLY talented!

Finally we begin to get to the meat here, this is a meaty bit of the book, we'll need you to comment, PLEASE on any or all of these issues!

Laocoon: We can see Rubens's own effort, how is it different from the stone, do you think? What does this particular Rubens Laocoon show that the stone does not?

The Mantuan Circle of Friends: Which is the brother and which…the mentor? Which is which? I take it the lightest face and the only one turned toward the camera is Rubens himself? Which is which?

Did you find it fascinating that the Council of Trent decreed who in paintings could be seeing celestial visions and co mingling with the divine? I love the Academia in Venice, love to look at those old paintings, love finding Botticelli in them, he always painted himself in the crowd. THIS one sentence explains a lot.

And when you consider that there were no photographs at this time, the painter took on a great deal more significance, didn't he? Is that true today?

What is the role of painters today in our society??!!??

Now we have a description of St. Helena discovering the True Cross, what do you think of the painting, the cutting off of the top of the cross, what is the impression YOU get? Does cutting off the top make the impression the artist apparently sought? Of course at this time there were abundant crucifixion paintings, I am wondering, tho, at the effect?

Is it subtle or lost?

And what of this business of "avoid the effect of stone?" Look at this bust of Trajan, circa 108-117 A.D. Does that stone not live? Why avoid the effect of stone?

One fireworks display for your thoughts!

Congratulations on making 100!!! I would never have gotten this far alone!

YEAH! And we're getting into the meat of Rubens.

The Saint Helena painting still looks awkward to me. The cross seems crowded. Hard to tell if it makes the effect of looking up for the cross without seeing it in place. But the painting seems cluttered. Of course, these paintings were cluttered -- the painter had to get all the symbols in. Presumably it's a matter of composition to do that without looking crowded, as this painting does. I'm hoping you all will help me see what's wrong. The saint looks wrong to me, too.

The family portrait seems better to me, more polished (almost too much so).

off- subject:
Just waiting for Wilma to hit here, (Boca Raton, FL) so it's hard to concentrate,
but if/when we lose our electricity, I'll be reading about Rembrandt all day on Monday ... well,
not quite all day, I'll do some Latin, too!

"

Mippy - - - Hope you all come through okay!

EmmaBarb - - - Great putto !!

Ginny - - -
I feel that Rubens's picture of Laocoon and his sons "tones down" the sharp images and gives one a different perspective of the occasion.
The Council of Trent edicts merely show that "laws were made to be broken and where there's a will there's a way".
I love the description of St Helena - - - "early Christian scavenger", and I'm still looking forward to learning about Rembrandt.

Brian

Oh how great to come in and see the celebration .... fireworks and all

Thanks to all who commented on my Rubens' drawing (putti - plural of putto....a figure of a pudgy baby almost always male).

Rubens and his younger brother .... I hope they remained such close loving brothers throughout their lives.
I find it artistically restraining that the Council of Trent dictated who or what could be in the those old paintings. I cannot help but feel that many great artists of today will never attain the artistic historical significance of Rubens, Rembrandt, Durer et al. The political or religious role in our society is simply not there today. Can you think of any ?

I loved the painting and description of St. Helena and all the little putti surrounding her. I don't have any thoughts on why the top of the cross was cut off. Maybe (as in some cases) the painting was cut down for some reason thru the years and that part of the painting was lost.

Mippy ~ stay safe from Wilma. I've been tracking the hurricane on the tv.

Abrbri (Brian) -- loved your photo of fireworks display in D.C. (where you there to take the picture?).

Emma

- - - and there don't seem to be too many of us celebrating.

I wonder if there will be anyone around for page #200?

EmmaBarb - - - good eye, you recognised the fireworks area, and NO, I did not
take the photo myself, and have never been there. The image was borrowed from the web.

Must get back to work and read page #101!

Brian

St Helena....found this interesting.

That IS interesting, EmmaBarb, thank you. So it seems that the object of the painting of St. Helena has to be Helena herself, because half the cross is out of the painting, I am not sure why or what effect that has on me, it's interesting.

Today we have arrived (all of us, Rubens included) finally home, I thought that was quite interesting, the Apennines alone would have daunted a lesser man much less one with horses to be bathed in wine, I really thought that bit of writing about how they opened the tin boxes and....and...was wonderful. That alone is worth the price of these pages!

Couldn't you just FEEL the reaction when he'd arrive at one destination only to be told they'd moved on? It began to seem like the labors of Hercules! I wonder why communication was so messed up! Am not sure how you bathe a horse in wine in the rain, boy I bet they stank.

This is really a fascinating bit, isn't it?

And then at the END!!!

Another thing I'm grateful for in these pages is the news of his series of Aeneid paintings because the Latin students are about to read The Aeneid and I want to look each of them up and see if we can use them. I bet you a dollar this is one, want to bet?

The artist was not credited on this one, just who the figures are (Aeneas carrying his father Anchises, from Troy accompanied by his wife and son and household gods). That kind of looks like Rubens, would you say?

Bet it is!

What was YOUR reaction to these pages?

Well, we've finally got Rubens to Valladolid, and are about to view one of his most striking portraits.
That of the virtual "ruler" of Spain, the Duke of Lerma, on horseback.

Soon, we shall see what has been happening to our hero, and to learn a little about HIS artistic progress:).

Brian

http://www.historywiz.com/galleries/dido.htm http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/rubens/exhibition/decorations4detail.html http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/exhibits/rubens/teacher/rubens_capture.pdf

Brian

Horses bathed in wine -- that got me wondering if that was true or a play on words by Prof. Schama. Had to be cheap wine (ha).
I could feel for Rubens having discovered the destruction to many of the paintings he was in care of. Do we get to see any of those paintings he restored I wonder.

Ginny ~ oh what a georgeous painting of Aeneas carrying his father, thank you. It sure does look like a Rubens but maybe it was one of those he restored. There is a faint signature in the lower right corner....Rubens ?

Brian - thanks for those links, I'm off to look at them.
Emma

Thank you, EmmaBarb. Sure looks like it to me, but I can't read the signature but thank you also Brian for those wonderful links, have saved them all and I think the first one has another link to a million other renditions of the theme, many thanks. That Berkeley pdf will not come up for me, crashes my computer actually but the others are super.

I have a feeling Dido did not quite look like that, Rubens certainly likes Rubenesque women, doesn't he? Today she'd be put on a tread mill and high blood pressure meds. hahahaa

Ginny - - - I have posted the painting from the PDF file because I did not wish you to miss it.

Brian

THANK you Brian, what's the title of it? She looks dead but I am not thinking she did die?

Thanks, Brian. Unfortunately, I didn't take Schama with me on vacation -- I would have exceeded the airplane's weight limit (sigh) So good to see what you're talking about.

Undoubtedly Dido died. One version of the tragedy was that she did herself in, when
Aeneas left her, and she apparently used his sword. Another version has it that she was
poisoned by Cupid.

However, in the picture from the PDF, I am unable to see the sword, or Cupid and his vial of poison.

Rubens has painted a bloodthirsty version of the outcome which you can see
http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/objects/o535.html - - - - HERE

Brian

Thanks, Brian. I think I have her confused with the one Odysseus dallied with so long, SHE didn't die, who WAS that?? I'm looking forward to renewing my acquaintance with Aeneas, it's been a long time, I'll look her up. Rubens sure did like...er....roly poly ladies!

I've just been reading about Dido and it appears Virgil interpreted her a bit differently than her other myth, where she threw herself on a pyre to avoid Iarbus, nothing to do with Aeneas.

She definitely died, either way.

But this legend is the one where she founded the city of Carthage, and Iarbas, the local king said he would give her as much land as might be covered by an ox-hide; so she had it cut into strips and stretched.

Who WAS that with Odysseus? I don't remember it as Circe, tho we know he stayed there because of how he died, but maybe Calypso?....YEAH I just found it, definitely Calpyso 7 years and promised him immortality, but he loved Penelope.

Brian - I couldn't view the pdf file either but it could be that I have an older version of Acrobat Reader. Thanks for posting the painting of the death of Dido.

Rubens was told to paint the most beautiful women in Spain. Rubenesque women in his day were supposed to be a sign of wealth. I think I have Rubenesque curves but noone has asked me to model lately (ha).
Emma

EMMA: yes, we were definitely born too late to be considered beauty queens. Sigh. But no one can see us on the internet.

Rubens, the ultimate courtier and politician, has painted his first real "Masterpiece"
to delight his erstwhile patron, with a "Marshall's baton" rather than a Sword, in order not to offend
his ultiimate patron, the King of Spain.

It's a stunner, and Schama goes to town in his description of the work and of it's reception.

Brian

I like the model in Rubens' drawing for the portrait of the Duke of Lerma better.

Emma - - - as I said, Rubens was an astute man.

His model was way more handsome than his patron, and probably more fitting for Gilbert
and Sullivans ' " - - the very model of a modern major-general"

Nice beard!

Brian

I couldn't find the shipwreck in that painting (p.116)....I found this larger version of it but still no wreck click here. (I do see the face of an older man with a beard in the lower left....do you ?) Many of these illustrations in the book are poor quality (IMHO). Interesting that there's a flame in the lighthouse....wonder when they changed that ?

Was the man crawling away Aeneas(our lower right -- is that the man with the beard you mentioned Emmabarb?). There is a broken stick of wood near the bottom? The mast? Very confusing.

I don't know....I'm not finding what looks like a shipwreck. Perhaps the man being helped up in the foreground is one of the survivors.

Isn't the wrecked ship on the very bottom, with ribs like a carcass? See below?

In Edit: No, strike that, because it, with a magnifying glass, reveals broken trees? I'm going to click on that one below, I have a new magnifying mouse and see if I can find it, it's huge!

We're really getting to the art now, (and I agree that the illustrations here are poor!) and I am really struck by The Duke of Lerma's portrait, especially that HORSE! It's nothing like the great horse statue of Marcus Aurelius, Schama mentions because of the turning. That is a beautiful horse, so lifelike, that Andalusian mane and tail and the still Duke: fantastic, I have never been to Madrid but I would love to see it. It's so typical of the Spanish, almost a Paso Fino look, they have their own breeds of horses, and they sit perfectly still, just like a Tennessee Walker, I'm going to try to find some of the breeds, I am pretty sure the Andalusian is one, that curly MANE!!

Aren't we lucky Rubens and all of them back then wrote so many letters? We can see what they thought to this day, I think that's fascinating.

Next we have something amazing, to me,

Landscape With the Shipwreck of Aeneas: click to enlarge

I went looking for it in color and found it was not! Yet it sort of looks like an engraving till you get close up on it (click that and view!), so I am not sure why all that energy is black and white?!? Very powerful and that spot recognized as the Porto Venere near La Spezia. (page 117). I've had to go to page 117 so we can talk about the paintings on page 116! It's a fascinating thing to see!

Equally fascinating is our Mippy has sent a super article on Professor Schama which I hope to repeat here soon, it was good of her to think of us while being battered by Hurricane Wilma in Boca Raton, but she is OK, thank goodness tho without power, still!

Also have just read yesterday of a famous painting of Raphael: Aeneas carrying his father Anchises! Now can that be OUR same painting I put in here last week? I know nothing of Raphael, did he also have Rubenesque figures? (Of course I knew nothing when we started this, and I believe I have learned SOMETHING) hahaaha Now I have to go find Raphael's painting and compare. Of course Virgil was from Mantua, so it makes sense to do a cycle of his Aeneid there, I wonder if somebody sells the small reproduction post cards, I'd love to have a set.

Wasn't it interesting that Rembrandt had that Hero and Leander in his house? If you stand well back from the illustration in the book it looks like waves, sort of. That's an interesting painting, what did you all think of it?

Or the Shipwreck with Schama's clearly delineated two areas: realms of despair and realms of promise. The central figure in the Aeneas and his Family departing, the one with the light on her, half undressed, is not identified by Schama, what are we to make of her? I wonder why she seems to catch the eye, is she the division as you can see, for instance, on the freize around Trajan's column where Victory divides two Dacian campaigns, or? Why her? You have to look for Aeneas, and if she weren't looking his way I don't think you'd notice him at all, is this to be read from left to right? Things look more hopeful on the right?

Not sure but set the book down and back off and see what stands out at YOU?

Raphael died before Rubens was born. One of my books says he was working on a painting of St. Peter and St. Paul for the Vatican when he died. (Peter Paul Rubens ....might explain a lot.)

The "Cavalia" is in town (near the Pentagon) with those georgeous, magnificent performing horses. The Andalusian

I'm sure the original painting "Shipwreck of Aeneas" was not in black and white. It clearly says oil on canvas. I've looked thru several art books I have for it but no luck yet, however I have seen several paintings that appear to be very similar...with the rainbow and the lighter sky and then the darkness and broken trees in the lower part.

What's with Philip Rubens and brother Peter Paul ? I know brothers can be very close.
Emma

In addition to the Web Art Gallery (clickable entry at he top of the Introductory Page)
another excellent resource is the Art Renewal Center - - - http://www.artrenewal.com/
which contains amongst other items, a Museum of Artists, sorted by Name, Nationality and Dates of Birth and Death.

The entry on Rubens contains sixteen pages of his paintings (including the one of the Aeneas Shipwreck)

Brian

Brian - that's a really good website to bookmark (which I did)....the black & white "Landscape with Shipwreck of Aeneas" is the same that's been posted here. I've been hoping someone finds a "color" version of it or what happened to it....lost maybe ?

This is my latest search click here...but haven't found anything yet.

EmmaBarb, your link to the Andalusian is gorgeous... but for performing I wonder if you're thinking of the horses at the Vienna Riding School? They are Lippizaners from Slovenia which is where my father was born and there is a substantial breeding program there today.

Okay, I know you meant the lovely dressage of the Andalusians but this is a seque to posting this site on the Lipizzans in Slovenia:

Horse

I had to find an excuse, even this lame one, to post the Lipica link.

Marvelle

Marvelle ~ yes I love those Lippizaners. The Andalusian was an afterthought because I think they go back in history longer than the Lippizaners ? Please enlighten me. The "Cavalia" also has the Lusitanian stallions performing. Oh thank you so much for the lovely link to Lipica.
Emma

Thank you EmmaBarb and Marvelle for your links to the Andalusians and the Lipizzanas.

If you have not already read Mary Stewart's "Airs above the Ground" I am sure you will enjoy it.

Brian

Brian - where do I find Mary Stewart's "Airs above the Ground" ?

Mary Stewart is an English author who wrote many books in the '60s.
She is probably best known for her trilogy on the King Arthur saga - - -
"The Crystal Cave" about the birth and youth of Merlin; "The Hollow Hills"
being an account of the education and the growing into manhood of King Arthur;
and "The Last Enchantment" which rounds off the story with the death of Merlin
and the passing of Arthur after parting with his sacred sword

"Airs above the ground" is a much lighter, and truly delightful book, built around.
the Lipazzan Stallions. I believe it was on the New York Times "Best Seller" list for 6 months or more.

I have had a copy for years, and I imagine you could find it in your Public Library.

Brian

Brian - much thanks, now all I need is time to start another book. Well it's worth looking for and setting aside for whenever....along with several other books I put aside for this one (ha).

I love Mary Stewart, it's been SUCH a long time since I read her. There's a PBS special coming up on the 16th in the US and in the UK thru the BBC which we're going to discuss here, incidentally, on King Arthur and the Queen of Sheba, it's about myths, and ends the night before Thanksgiving, awful timing, with Jason and the Argonauts.

She was such a good writer.

Emmabarb, I can't seem to find that painting in color!?!????

Thank you Marvelle, for the information on the Lippizan (?I can't spell it according to google ahahaha) horses, I'm familiar with the ones in Austria, THAT is an exciting site, am ready to go, how about the rest of you? Looks fabulous!

Unlike the Andalusian, as most of you know, the Lippizans are normally all white at maturity, a lot of Andalusians are not, and the darker ones seem more common here in the States, from what I have seen. Andalusians are likewise quite distinctive with those curling long long manes and long long tails, here is a photo which I have enlarged with the credits (not well )

from one of their breed websites (http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/andalu.html) and you can see the incredible tail and that mane, unless they have used extenders, is down to her FEET!

They also do dressage, but I agree that "airs above the ground" is pretty much the provenance of the Lipizzaner.

I am pleased that my identification of the Andalusian has proven correct tho, and your link, Emma Barb, shows a photo of a live horse which could have been the model for Rubens, that was very exciting to me, they look like twins, how well he did that, so long ago!

The first Andalusian I ever saw was a deep bay color, dark dark brown, not a big horse, tho the standard is 15.1-16.1 hands, but that mane! I did not know what it WAS, it as in a parade, and that mane! (And I THINK they have them in the Rose Bowl parade, I could be wrong!) That arched neck and prancing with the rider seated perfectly still, it's quite a sight. I have never seen a white one in person but have seen plenty of bays and apparently THEY are rare, so it's quite a distinctive and beautiful breed. I have enjoyed reading about them. That tail in that photograph is amazing. My horse that just died last year had a long white tail that swept the ground and a white mane too, but a normal horse's mane will not grow out that long as you see those of the Andalusian, so you can spot them a mile off. Nor are they curly or rippled. I'm not sure if that is an effect produced, the curling or natural, anybody know?

One of my friends has recently visited Iceland, and was thrilled by the Icelandic horses.
These horses are purebred, and once off the island are never allowed to return, for fear of polluting the strain.

He was fascinated by the five specific gaits of Icelandic horses - - - walk, trot, TOLT, canter and flying pace.

Tolt was a new word to me, and apparently gives rise to the smoothest ride at speed.

More information http://www.icelandichorses.ca/horses.htm#top

Brian

Ginny ~ aren't those horses beautiful. My brother worked with horses (mainly race horses) all his life ...wish he was here now he could tell us about them. He also was an artist and his paintings and drawings were mostly horses. He used to also go around the country taking video of horses and his wish was to put it all in a movie film (he died before he ever did).

Brian -- Tölt is a new word to me. Thanks for the Icelandic horses link. That's the kind of riding horse I need....one you can rely on in every situation as well as knowing exactly where they're going (ha).

Emma

Gosh where is my giant post about the Tennessee Walking Horse and the 5 gaited Saddlebred? !?!?? I've spent all weekend looking for a photo of my own horse, apparently hopelessly missing, doggone it!

Sorry to be delayed here, I thought my huge post on the comparison of the TOLT (which I also had not heard of) and the other gaited breeds would hold me. ahahahah Apparently it's disappeared like the wind, but did you all see this in yesterday's New York Times? I just put this in the Book Nook, wanted you to see it too:

Did you all see the NY Times Book section yesterday? Jonathan Harr (A Civil Action) has a new one out called the Lost Painting, about the hunt for a 17th century masterpiece by Caravaggio, doesn't that sound fabulous??!!??

The painting depicts the Taking of Christ, when Judas identifies him with a kiss and has been apparently missing for a long time. It was originally purchased in 1603. The trail is exciting: there was a notation in 1921 of an auction in Edinburgh of a painting titled The Taking of Christm misattributed to a minor Dutch painter for 8 guineas. By the 50's it was known as a vanished work of art, only known by the copies of it made. But it was found in 1990, it appears to be a very exciting book and the article is huge, I must devour it more closely. I had not heard of it, have you?

As you may know, the painting attributed to Caravaggio, was found in Ireland.,
here's a little more on the subject :

http://www.limerick-leader.ie/issues/20040306/news03.html

Ginny - - - I hope you find the picture of your horse, I would like to see it.

Did you get the animation of the TOLT? I would love to have seen an animation of "Airs above the Ground"

Brian

Ginny ~ sorry you lost your post and I'd love to see a photo of your own horse if and when you find one.
I hope to browse in Books A Million soon to look at their art books for the Holidays....I always find at least one I think I must have. I will look for the Jonathan Harr book about the lost painting.
Is it true that Caravaggio was a murderer ? (Prof Schama wrote that he was.)
Emma

Comments from a lurker.

Over forty years ago, I took a one semester elective art appreciation course thinking it would be a cinch vs. all the science and engineering courses in my curriculum.

Apparently the professor made some impression on me, or at least on my subconscious, because when I see the name Caravaggio, as Emma just posted, two words spring into my mind: "dramatic lighting." In the forty or so years since that art appreciation course, I have never been able to work the expression "dramatic lighting" into a conversation.

The same goes for Rubens. Mention the name Rubens, and the words drilled into me so long ago, "strong diagonal and lowered horizon" magically appear.

So how come I can't remember where my car keys are?

Rich

RICH: because car keys aren't as interesting as "dramatic lighting" try putting a picture of a beautiful woman (with dramatic lighting) on your key chain.

I read and read last night and thought I had caught up. I think I miscounted -- I'm still one page short.

But what interesting things I missed!! I loved the story of PP's trip to Spain -- he chases him all over, only to find him gone, repaints all the paintings, and when the presentation finally happens, he's shoved in a corner somewhere and ignored!! No wonder that horse looks so fierce -- PP was probably chewing nails and spitting them out by this time!! Then he's told to go to France and paint dirty pictures!

And I thought working for the US government was hard. Little did I know. I wonder what Rembrandt would have done? Moot question -- I don't think anyone would have used him as a political envoy.

I loved Schama's critique of PP's swimming technique. I think very few people knew how to swim in those days. But I'll have to tell my sister that the Naiads swim sidestroke -- that's her stroke.

The alter, I find disappointing -- cluttered. Maybe with a better picture it would look better.

Great marketing idea, Joan!

Chubby, "Rubenesque" key chains. -Easy to find in your pocket or purse, and you'll probably not forget where you put them down.

Brilliant!

Rich

OK, Rich, we'll split the profits.

I goofed. I didn't turn the page and took the black and white sketch for the alter. The real alter is much better.

All of these paintings are a little odd to me. Why is a nude standing in the corner? Why are the nude and the Saint paying absolutely no attention to what is going on, but staring out at the viewer instead? They seem to be saying "OK, how about you?"

The leopardskin and Saint's clothes seem kind of ratty and messy to me, not sumptuous. I know from Homer that Greek solders often wore the skins of wild animals that they had killed. Maybe this is a portrait of someone (or maybe he snatched the leopard skin from the nude).

Welcome Rich7 ti's good to see you posting.

RICH!! I am so glad to see you here, I am running way behind and flat out but yesterday after my class I bought the new Jonathan Harr on Caravaggio, and it just looks fabulous. Because of this discussion I have gotten really interested in art, and it looks to die for, it's all I can do not to start it.

But I'm behind here, and so I'm going to make up the pages I am behind with today and then move on as we have a holiday coming up next week as you know.

Rich are you all moved? Where are you?

Be right back, but look what we're looking at in Latin today, here is a 16th century enamel (certainly contemporary!?!_ showing Aeneas and Dido whom Brian mentioned before (we're just now getting to Africa and Dido)

Aeneas et Dido: 16th century enamel: click to enlarge

I thought that was incredible, we've had engravings, enamels, oils, all sorts of mediums here!

Be right back, what Joan K wrote above looks so enticing I must dive right in!

(Can't find the horse ANYWHERE).

The paintings are coming thick and fast, now. Turn the page from the altarpiece, and you get a stunning one. Can't wait to see what you all think.

Ginny ~ the 16th century enamel is something to see, thanks for posting it.....lots going on in it.

Rubens' Saint Gregory....actually I think the reprint in the book is much better coloring in this painting. Words escape me to do justice to Rubens' talent and skill in mastering the textures of the textiles in this one. Oh and the next portrait too with that intricate lace collar.
Emma

Isn't that collar amazing!! I'm sure the woman chose to be painted in it, but I can't help thinking of her as it's victem -- instead of her head on a plate, her head on a collar.

JoanK ~ hadn't thought of that .... head on a collar...but you're right

Hello, Ginny,

I don't have the book, but do enjoy some of the art that you, Joan, Emma, Brian and others insert into the discussion.

I'll just stand on the sidelines and watch the discussion develop. If the urge to comment overcomes me I'll pop in again.

Rich

Hi Ginny,

Like Rich7 I have been enjoying the art discussion. This is wonderful!! Sorry you couldn't find the photo of your horse.

Well! This is lovely, Lurkers unite for Thanksgiving, we're thankful for all of you, running a bit behind, hope to make it up today!

I hope I find his photo too, Hats, it was one of the few I had, nearly crashed computer trying to load an old disk on it but Rembrandt's (who?) a waiting!

After reading, and studying, the first hundred and thirty pages of our self-imposed task,
I am beginning to come to terms with the flowery word play. It is more relevant to oratory
than to the framework of a dissertation for the eyes.

What Shakespearean actor could resist the offerings like - - -
"drenching radiance - - - ?" "soaking up the holy sunbeams - - - ?"
"outrageously gratuitous demonstrations of virtuosity - - - ?" or,
"controlled explosions of saturated color - - - ?"

I am learning to speed-read my daily allowance, and to translate its contents into a more appropriate
version to accompany the telling of this over-embellished story.

Roll on Rembrandt !

Brian

haahah I agree. As you all will notice I am expanding a bit our reading and dates, to encompass the US Holiday Thanksgiving starting Wednesday and going thru next weekend for many of us. In addition I personally will be on a trip the 28th-the 1st, but will be looking in daily from the road. Sans book!! I'll have to rely on you all for quotes and art. (Who in their right mind would take this thing on a plane!?! hahahaa)

I think this will give us a broader appeal to chat over the book and still keep current. So anything within those pages is fair game.

Perhaps the white horse was Rubens own....it seems he enjoyed getting up at 4 a.m., having mass, then riding his Spanish horse before taking his brush up to paint.

Painting lace....today some artists would not take the time to paint the lace. But instead they use a piece of lace they might have or purchase and tape it down to their painting after which they spray-paint color to thoroughly cover the holes in the lace. With oil perhaps something silimar only the color rolled on over the lace. When I took watercolour classes my teacher gave us many easy tips like this. Do you think Rubens painted each little minute detail on that lace collar ?

Emma

EMMA:" Do you think Rubens painted each little minute detail on that lace collar ?" My guess would be yes. He seems to enjoy painting fabrics of different texture, as in his altarpiece. But the delicacy of that lace is something else!

So his altarpiece turns out not to be his altarpiece -- have we read about the substitution yet? In the small print given, it looks awfully crowded. What a bummer. You would think the patrons would feel gypped (of course where I've read to they haven't paid him yet).

It seems Rubens didn't like the lighting and reflections on his painting of the altarpiece (I understand this well...especially in oil paintings). I think I read where he made a copy (well almost) on slate and gave them a piece of his mind why they would not get the original painting.
Speaking of the hanging of oil paintings, I read in Schama's book that Rubens "Samson and Delilah" was hung over a fireplace (good grief, I hope they didn't use the fireplace for a real fire as it surely would destroy the painting....all that heat would melt it and make the paint and medium run....I know this from experience).

Oh, dear. I once visited the house of a well-to-do couple who had a copy of an old book kept propped open on the mantel of their fireplace. I didn't know them well enough to say anything, but I'm sure it must have been the worst possible position and place.

Now to read on and find out if PP succeeds in selling his painting, or at least getting some money from somewhere.

I have a number of antique books, they are wrapped in tissue and in plastic wrappers. I surely hope they are not deteriorating. Some the pages are so brittle I dare not touch them (I don't think they were stored properly by the person who previously owned them). Actually I'm not up at all on storing old books.

Just when I thought Prof. Schama was going to talk about Rubens' paintings he goes off again on other historical events. I wonder if he ever gets back to Rembrandt ?

Recent posters' comments about lace ruff collars, paintings, and fireplaces reminds me of a painting I noted years ago on the mantel of the family room at Mark Twain's house in Hartford, Conn.

It was a small (maybe 5" by 7") framed, head-and-shoulder oil painting of a cat (Do cats have shoulders?). One unique feature of the little painting was that the cat was wearing a finely painted, stiff Elizabethan lace collar. Twain saw the painting in Venice during one of his trips abroad, liked it and bought it immediately.

He placed it on his mantel, and as far as I know it's there to this day. It's known unofficially as "The Cat in the Ruff."

Now here's the human interest part. Twain was a great storyteller, not just in his writings, but in his everyday speech. Every evening, before bedtime, he would gather his children (all girls) around the fireplace to tell them stories. In each of the tales that he related to the children, the "Cat in the Ruff." would have a role, sometimes as the lead character, sometimes in a cameo role, but always in the story.

I had to have a copy of the "Cat in the Ruff" to hang in my own home, so after touring Twain's home I bought an inexpensive copy. After framing it, I hung it on a short wall in our guest room. Inevitably people staying over at our house would enquire about the unusual cat painting, thereby giving me an interesting story to relate to my guests.

Now for the unhappy part. Whenever you move, you lose some things. Having recently moved to the Sonoran desert from New England, I seem to have lost "The Cat in the Ruff" in the process.

My wife and I both miss it, and the little story that goes with it. Surfing the net for a replacement, so far, has yielded nothing.

Rich

RICH: what a neat story. I sent it to a friend who is a cat lover (She'll probably tell me that putting a ruff on a cat is cat-abuse).

Rich, that's wonderful. We once had the Education Director of the Mark Twain House in CT read a book with us, Wally Lamb who is on that board talked him into it, he enjoyed it but is no longer with them, but I bet you THEY would know about that picture and maybe they even sell reproductions, have you contacted them??!!??

I love that story!

I've been thinking about the concept of a real collar ever since it was brought up here, thank you EmmaBarb, for bringing here things you have learned in your painting class, I never heard of such. But I have to keep thinking about those huge globs of paint that I saw on Rembrandt's (who?) hahaah painting of the Jewish Bride in the museum in Amsterdam, it really was thick, it COULD have been something other than paint, too. I guess it's heresy to say so.

I was ordering some of those Discoveries books from...is it Abbotts? Can't think of the publisher. Anyway I love those books, lots of glossy photos, small books, very good scholarly foundation and behold! There was one on Rembrandt, so I said what the heck and they've just notified me they've shipped it, so hopefully before long I will know more stuff also.

Ginny ~ those huge globs of paint that you saw on Rembrandt's painting of the Jewish Bride probably were globs of paint. Highlights in an oil painting are much thicker and often pure pigment without any medium.

Rich -- I've never seen the "Cat in the Ruff" painting that Mark Twain liked so much but after searching "Google" came up with this click here.....it appears to be a puzzle. At the Gift Shop of the historic Mark Twain House in Connecticut, available items online include puzzles featuring The Cat in the Ruff, an image inspired by the Twain family's favorite feline. It says call (860) 247-0998 for more information or e-mail to info@marktwainhouse.org
Emma

It's driving me nuts! I'm a jigsaw puzzle fanatic. I've looked all over the site for "The cat in the ruff" puzzle and can't find it.

Hi everyone,

I have a Cat in the Ruff pin. I bought it several years ago from the Boston Museum of Art's Christmas catalogue [I think]. I completely forgot about the pin. I think I'll find it and wear it today.

I'm keeping up with the reading. Peter Paul certainly lead a charmed life [or did he know how to seize the opportunity when it knocked?]. I enjoy the emphasis on history. The Dutch East India Co and West India Co played a major part in history and very little of it seems to be taught in school.

A cat in the ruff pin! Who knew. I order from the Boston museum of Art, but I don't remember seeing it.

or something like it?

Brian

Hey, Brian

Good sleuth work. Yes, that's generally what it looks like. The original is an oil painting and the cat is more lifelike in the original, but that's how it would look if the painting were embroidered.

That is embroidery, right?

Rich

It's on e-bay, so if you hurry, you could buy it.

Rich -- I saw that same "Cat in the Ruff" but it was needlepoint and not as good an image as the one posted.

FINALLY! I have finally caught up with the reading above and now can talk with Brian about the florid Schama prose and JoanK on the paintings and EmmaBarb about what I'm looking at and Rich on the ruff thing. Talk about RUFFS, what about that one on page 128? Killer ruff, very pretty, I thought. Suec! There you are, so good to see you again, this section is replete with history, isn't it?

Love the conversation here on the Cat in the Ruff and where it really IS, good work! I get their catalog and never noticed it. I am a jigsaw NUT, too, Joan K!!! I have had MORE problems on trips trying to bring home puzzles, have a fabulous wood one of Henry VIII's chapel which I brought box and all back, but the one I most regret was at Neuschwanstein (sp?) once you climb to the top of that steep mountain as you stand there gasping for breath (because you were too stupid to take the horse drawn wagon, THOSE were the days, I'd do well to even get IN the wagon now ahhaahah) but there were acres of beautiful beautiful puzzles of that castle, have never seen any so fine before or since but the BOXES!! The BOXES!!! That was before I discovered UPS and Fed Ex overseas, now puzzles come to me with no problem. I must go back there someday. You can now get them online tho, the miracle of the internet, bringing into each of our homes what we formerly had to climb mountains for! hahaha

But by our page 150 the pieces are beginning to fit into place (I hope!). Philip has died and so has his mother by page 150 and I really like the way he explained the Four Philosophers on page 147. You have to read on to 150 to see who is who.

I like that way of immortalizing a brother and mentor yet Schama says "But it is his presence that commands our attention. And he knows it."

So this is a great test of our 2005 sensibilities. When YOU get to that painting, oh let's just put it below here, in the book you see it before he explains it, let's be honest and say WHO it is in it that commands your attention? I thought it was another, can't wait to see what you think.

But oh the florid prose!

Maria lay on her stone bed on page 135, a striking metaphor and "Flemish girls resemble "puddings in petticoats," sometimes on the same page.

I absolutely LOVED all the references to the Classics, from Philip's hearing the classics read as he worked, to the depiction of the Palatine Hill behind the 4 Philosophers, to the Electorum Libri II showing the precise trim on the senator's robes, to the poem to the dog that died in a pot of boiling water (we once had an English setter who flung himself into a hot engine but was not hurt) to Lipsius' work on Stoicism and all the stuff about Seneca, loved that, and every detail of the 4 Philosophers, down to the tulips and the dog (which I had to hold in sunlight to even SEE).

I loved the three takes on the altarpiece with St. Gregory, loved the hat details that were ultimately left off. Love the scattering of Latin phrases. Poor Philip, early to rise and yet dead at what was it, 34?.

150 pages gone by this December 7th and still no Rembrandt in sight. B&N wrote me yesterday that my new Rembrandt is on the way, I look forward to seeing what it's about. As I'm going to Chicago this coming Monday and staying about a block from the Art Institute, I am pleased to see they do have a Rembrandt there, tho not one mentioned in this book and will see what I can find on it for us. As well Caravaggio is mentioned by Schama and I have started the Jonathan Harr book on his Lost Painting and so far it's somewhat….light but intriguing, it's fiction. And I suppose, having read all this, really MUST see if they have a Rubens, so I expect to be walking feet off, but hopefully will bring many interesting things back for us all.

SO I guess I'm saying I am somewhat intrigued to find self interested in and reading more and going to actually SEE an Art Museum on this trip which I would normally have eschewed for other pleasures. So maybe Schama (or this fine discussion) is growing on me.

What do YOU all think of any of the paintings in this section? Or anything contained in this section, anything surprise you? Who do YOU think is the most outstanding in the 4 Philosophers on page 147? I'll scan it in here so Rich can see it. Quick! Take a look, which one stands out? WHAT stands out? WHO is Rubens, would you say??!!?? Guess first, that's the way his viewers had to?

The Four Philosophers: Click on me and I will enlarge

Hi, Ginny and all,

I don't have the book, so I don't know if this painting is supposed to represent a milestone or departure for PPR, so I'm not sure what to look for.

What does strike me is that there is NO interaction between the four men in the painting. No one is looking at anyone else or showing any interest in anything in the room. The man pointing to the page seems to be indifferent even to what he is calling attention, as he gazes off into space. Why is he pointing? No one is looking where he is pointing.

The standing man on the left appears to be the most believable, as he looks the viewer directly in the eye. You find yourself searching for some eye contact. Any eye contact. Even the bust above them seems to be staring at the ceiling.

Ginny, many years ago I also made that walk up to Neuschwanstein Castle from the little Bavarian village at the base of the mountain. It was in February, and there was a light snowfall. The snowfall kind of added to the magic of the castle at the time. I'd hate to have to take that hike, now.

I'm told that in the summer months, now, the line to get into the castle winds all the way down the mountain into that little village. King Ludwig was just ahead of his time. The Bavarians did not know what a good thing he had brought them when they murdered him for spending all that money.

Rich

The first one that hit my eye was the man with the leopardskin (third from the left). Now I'll go read and find out who he was.

OK, I'll confess what an art philistine I am. I love jigsaw puzzles of paintings and art. When you work a painting as a puzzle, you get to appreciate all the little details of it, and the subtle shadings of color etc. -- things I admit I probably wouldn't notice otherwise.

Through the Internet, I bought (for $25) 50 on line jigsaw puzzles of paintings, and another 50 of other subjects. So I work them on the computer. This solves the problem of having space to leave a half-finished puzzle lying around. You can chose how many pieces you want it to be, so you can make it easy or hard. The only problem: my monitor screen is rather small, and with a lot of pieces, I don't have room to lay them all out at once.

How about those four tulips? One of them seems to be anchored to the chest of the marble head that looks toward the ceiling. Maybe that's why he looks up to the ceiling !

Brian

I've finally managed to find the animation to match that of the earlier posted TOLT.

Brian

We had our first snow this evening....I love the way the snow clings to all the tree branches and what leaves are left. It's beautiful !
I also walked up the side of the mountain (steep stone steps) to the Neuschwanstein Castle and loved all the art decor. I forget how many years it took those craftsmen to carve King Ludwig's bed (which I understand he never actually had a chance to sleep in). Was also fascinated how modern the kitchen was. It was the highlight of my visit to Germany a number of years ago.

JoanK ~ my computer has a puzzle program on it and I have ten of my computer paintings in it. It's amazing to me to work the puzzle of my own works, it's like I've never seen the painting before....very strange feeling.

Brian - that's really cool. It's hard to see one foot on the ground at all times. Edit: OIC it's a pace not the tolt.

Tonight watched PBS In Search of Myths & Heroes. Don't know how much reading I'll get done the next several days.
Emma

Brian,

That horse visual is very impressive.

Rich

Emma,

Your mention of the surprisingly modern kitchen in Neuschwanstein Castle reminded me of an improbable memory that I took away after visiting the castle.....The smell of furniture polish!

Entering the beautiful and warmly heated castle after walking up that hill on a snowy, chilly day in February you immediately got a sense of welcome and comfort. But, it must have been the maid's day to polish the furniture

because the smell of furniture polish was overwhelming.

They say that the sense of smell remains in your memory more than any of the senses, sight, hearing, etc. I know that I would be able to pick out the Neuschwanstein furniture polish smell from a "line up" even a decade after visiting the place.

Rich

Rich - that's interesting about the smell of furniture polish...there certainly was a lot of wood and wood carvings everywhere. I visited the Castle in July and the air was fresh. There were two tours, one in English and one in German...we took the German one and kind of lagged behind. I wanted to view all the art and tapestries etc without someone giving me their views of what I should be seeing. I did purchase a book in the gift shop and read it when I got home.
Emma

Great horse!

Working your own paintings as a puzzle? How interesting !!That puzzle program sounds neat. Where did you get it?

I have never been to Bavaria, but a virtual visit shows that the Castle is quite a place, and King Ludwig was quite the oddball.

http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Central_Europe/Germany/germany7.htm

Brian

JoanK ~ it's a software program called "Puzzle" and part of a Slideshow application I downloaded a number of years ago. http://www.secondnature.com -- you might find it here.

I guess you all know the castle at DisneyLand is copied after the Neuschwanstein Castle.
Emma

EmmaBarb,

I had never heard of Neuschwanstein Castle. So, I had no idea the castle at Disneyland copied it. That is really, really interesting.

Ginny, I am really thinking about buying this book.

Adribri, thank you for the link.

Hats, we would LOVE to have you in this discussion! I am thinking I would not buy THIS book tho, I'd get it from the library, ordinarily we only do 7 pages a week (pushed ahead to the 7th this time because of my trip to Chicago) but it's easily done just in sitting AT the library. We'd love to have you.

Love the remembrances of Neuschwanstein, I remember that fabulous kitchen also, clogged with Japanese tourists and I HAD to get to the bus!! I had taken a day trip of his castles, and the tour director was militaristic and I was horrified at missing the bus, and almost did, there's a back way down the mountain and I breathlessly skitterd down IT.

I'll drive next time and take the horses up (assuming I can even get IN the wagon) and back, beautiful thing. I felt so sorry for pure Ludwig, we had a wonderful English guide thru the thing and Ludwig's obsession with purity really impressed me, kind of a TS. Eliot character, that and his sleigh rides of perfection by night. I so wanted a book, but alas, travelling by train you learn not to pick up those wondrous books you lust after (or you did at one time, I now have mastered Fed Ex and UPS from abroad, and it's a good thing).

I will tell you all tho of one I DO recommend, and maybe some day we can discuss (in 2060) hahahaa, it's amazing what all this discussion has brought out and that's one I've been eyeing for some time, it's a new one by B&N (who are doing a LOT of good with their books) and is called The Great Masters of Italian Art by Elena Capretti. I made the mistake of turning a page Saturday and could not leave without it, although it's hardback and must weigh 10 pounds, it's HUGE.

It's huge, heavy, and magnificent, still only $19, it would make a stunning holiday gift, and it's just incredible. It takes Italian artists by centuries so you can see how art changed and then selects a few pieces and blows THEM up ( it's a gigantic coffee table book) with commentary, it's just mind blowing. I don't think I have ever enjoyed a book more. It's sumptuous, it's divine, and even I can SEE the details, I mean they blow up the hands bigger than my own. I absolutely love it and would recommend it to anybody, whether or not they loved art, when they get through, they will!

It's a course in itself but such JOY in the incredible and HUGE details, it's amazing. I can't say enough about it, have never SEEN such a book, if you're in B&N, turn a few pages, I guarantee you you'll sit down with it and never want to let it go. I'm going to put this in our Holiday Gift recommendations. If you have anybody on your list who likes art, they will thank you forever.

I've got an illustration of a sculpture in it for the Jason discussion of PBS so see it then but for the Latin classes I've found the Rape of Proserpina, which we read about and the detail on the sculpture is incredible, the hands are almost life-size: look at this realism:

Now you see how close up that is? Imagine it about 12 by 10 and you'll get some idea, you could literally if you could bear to tear this book up, frame the art.

I have checked and the Pompeii exhibit does not allow photos, so am leaving the camera home. Also checked and the Art Institute Rembrandts are "the studio of Rembrandt," so that means that they may not BE his but something produced like him, and there is no Caravaggio. However there IS a Caravaggio at the Borghese in Rome, and I had not previously thought I wanted to see it. I do now. There's no TELLING what the Vatican's got, also, I usually spend my time in the Roman part, this is opening up a whole new vista for me, love it.

Ginny, thank you for all your suggestions and recommendations. None are taken lightly.

Those hands are so lifelike!! Breathtaking!

Don't you wonder how in the world they got that skin like that? Dimpled? Out of stone? That just amazed me.

I really think that book would make a super discussion, thank you for those nice words, too.

I just realized that we tried before to have a discussion of a book on art, but it fell thru, but I still have it somewhere, Hoving's Art for Dummies, maybe HE has something to say on these works, too. I'll look it up when I get back.

Thanks to YOU all this discussion has continued, appreciate your constancy and the new readers participating!

Well for heaven's SAKE I could have said who the sculpture is BY, it's by Gian Lorenzo Bernini!! Does THAT name ring any bells with you all? Isn't HE the one who did St. Peter's? The Baldacchino ? Or great altar with those huge huge pilars?

This sculpture dates from 1619-1625, and he made it for Cardinal Scipione Borghese. It's IN the Borghese museum!!! The new book says that these sculptures he made are from subjects "drawn from literary texts," an

the artist set out to emulate the principal points of reference in his training : the sculpture of ancient Greece and Rome, that of 16th century mannerism, and the art of Michelangelo.

The Rape of Proserpine takes its inspiration from Ovid's Metamprphoses: Proserpina tries to break free form the powerful grip of Pluto, king of the Underworld…Alongside the couple stands the three headed dog, Cerberus. The group is dynamic in appearance, with the spiraling motion of the two bodies….

And much much more! It's AMAZING what this author can get into little print. Can you tell I love this book? haahaha

Sorry to disrupt. I still wonder if it is the Lipizzan horse known world over for its dressage at the Spanish Riding School?

A Slovene horse... a Spanish school ... in Vienna?

Doesn't matter since the horse can be inspired by many types or by one but I always think of the Lippizan as the most amazing, beautiful creature ever. Have a poem on it somewhere. Will look for it.

Marvelle

http://www.lipizzan.com/about.html

But I can't find your poem Marvelle.

Brian

Ginny ~ that's a fabulous illustration of the sculpture by Bernini....is this in your new book of Italian Masters ? This time of year just before the holidays is when the book stores usually put all the new art books on their shelves.

I should be thinking about getting some sleep. I have company coming tomorrow morning.
Emma

Ginny,

That Rape of Proserpine is incredibly lifelike, especially the close-up segment you included. When you think that when we view the image on our computers, we're looking at an electronic transmission of a scanned replica of a printed page from a mass-produced book showing a photograph of a sculpture, and we're all taken aback by Bernini's skill, then you know you are looking at the work of a genius.

Rich

I agree, Rich, amazing. I love this new book!! Hats, we must discuss this book, we must triple our pace here hahahahaa, no seriously, I'm learning a LOT from it, it comes in little spurts in the new book, but Schama has his place, too. I hope he someday gets TO Rembrandt again.

EmmaBarb, yes that's from the new book, it's a glory. But Schama has helped me understand art a bit, I think. I don't think it's a keeper tho, do you all? Not something you'd turn back to, maybe? I'm not sure, if it could be gotten cheaply like this other one, maybe??

I have already told my husband about this book. He could not believe the price. What an exciting wonder if we get to discuss it here. Something, maybe, to look forward too.

You can buy a used copy of the paperback Rembrandt's Eyes for $13 plus postage from Amazon:

REMBRANDT'S EYES

I'm reading it for the second time and enjoying it. I'm glad I bought it. But I agree, it's not the best book to use to learn about Art. (and it is a nuisance to fit in a bookcase).

I'll look for your book.

Thanks for looking for the poem. I couldn't find the best translation of the Edvard Kocbek poem but here is one trans of his poem.

Poem

I know it's rather a diversion but I loved reading the history of the Lippizan in the link you provided. Slovenes have been an occupied country, off and on, for centuries yet stubbornly maintained their customs and language and their horse. The Lippizan symbolizes the history and the soul of Slovenia.

Rembrandt's Eyes - it does get into Rembrandt and his art extensively. Fascinating book and I love the great, sweeping mass of history that Schama provides.

Marvelle

Ok you guys. Stand back! I just ordered "Rembrandt's Eyes" through the local library, here. (Marvelle's refrence to the sweep of history in Schama's writing put me over the top.)

I'm sure to have something to say on every page, being seldom at a loss for words.

It may be quiet for a while, though. (We're expecting our first grandchild within the next 24 hours, and we want to be there.)

Rich

I am going to pick up 'The Great Masters of Italian Art' tonight. I am taking your advice. It does sound like a beautiful book. Hope one day we will have a discussion with the Capretti book.

I am going to pass up on Rembrandt's Eyes.

RICH: howq wonderful!!!!!!!!!! There is no way to explain what a joy grandchildren are -- I'm so glad you will experience it for yourself!

HATS: great. Let me know what you think of the book. I'm torn.

Oh well done, Rich!! On all counts, let us know, too, the good news!

Hats, we may have to open an adjunct here, I can't WAIT to hear what you think of it!

JoanK, hahaah I thought you were Joan! hahaha I hope it does not hurt too much? hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa (sorry it's been a long day) ahahahah You all must see this book, I tell you! Maybe we can discuss it somehow...

Rich - a new baby, your first grandchild ~~~~~ Congratulations !

Ginny ~ let us know how many paintings in your new book were done by Rubens...we could certainly discuss those.

I have a list of several art books I must have. I had planned a trip to Books A Million before all the good ones are gone.
Emma

Rich,

What a wonderful experience! Enjoy!!

I picked it up last night. I haven't looked at it yet. I can't wait to sit down and get a bigger peek. The paintings are HUGE!! I like that part about the book.

Emmabarb and JoanK could really give a good opinion. One we could trust.

I looked at my index first. This book begins in the 14th century and ends with the 18th century. Ginny, like you said, it's like taking a course on Italian art. I am very proud of this book. I like the bios of each artist too. For the price the book is unbelievable!! I paid a whopping $14.95. Did that knock everybody on the floor? When the saleslady quoted the price, I had her repeat it three times. It's holiday time so she didn't get impatient with me. She laughed.

It is a great book!! It will take forever to see every page. I did see the Pieta. Beautiful! Up close and personal!

Thank you for bringing us this recommendation.

I keep going back to look at the paintings. Just wonderfully fantastic!!

I am so glad you are enjoying it, Hats, isn't it a glory? Just a glory. We are not likely to have any corresponding paintings here unless of course Professor Schama goes out on a limb and talks about Italian art, (he's talked about everything else). We must wait for EmmaBarb and Joan K to get a glimpse in the bookstore of this book before we give an opinion but I do have to congratulate you again in that we have tried for 10 years this September to make a discussion work on art and we've never done it, we have to give YOU and Professor Schama credit for that.

I am wondering if we could think of an adjunct discussion maybe in the new year, it would benefit this one by the techniques and contrast and as we proceed with a page a day it would not be a burden to do a Painting a Week either, particulary comparing the styles of the period. Just think about it, hahhaha Hats with your $14.95, how come you got it so cheap? I'd ask her three times, too> hahahaa

It's the huge blown up thing that I also love, up close and personal. There's one with a Cardinal's hands and they are almost as big as mine are, love it.

Ginny,

I have seen the Cardinal's hands. Each page is just "a glory." You have described the paintings perfectly.

Isn't that something, golly moses and it's amazing how much you can learn from that, just being able to SEE the works clearly. I just got that close today!

Report from Art Institute of Chicago trip: they have a beautiful presentation of their art and the NICEST staff I have ever encountered. If you ask a guard a question he escorts you wherever you’re going, I have never seen anything like it. TWO different ones even came after me later and said now did you find what you were looking for? And I asked a LOT of directions. Very impressive museum.

The Rembrandt was stunning. It’s Old Man With a Chain. I don't care how close you got to it, and I put on my glasses and got within 1/2 inch of it, you could see the wood, but that eye looked real, it was astounding, it just looked real. The hat had gobs superimposed like the one I saw of the Jewish Bride, but that EYE!!!

Apparently the provenance of it has not been questioned but it has been of another one of a girl, apparently quite famous, also signed by Rembrandt, and so even tho it’s signed, they explained that recently that was challenged and so it could be of the School of Rembrandt and he allowed his own signature (which has not been proven to be added later) to be put on it. I am sure it’s a disappointment to learn that something formerly thought authentic might not be, but they have SO many fine famous paintings!!! AND it MAY be!!

It’s an incredible museum and you can get slap UP on the art, and see it clearly. It’s amazing how when you go into a room you are drawn to the masters, tho? Your eye skims over maybe 12 huge wonderful paintings and then is caught and hooked and stopped. A Botticelli called me from across a room. I saw the Grand Jatte, several Monets, a famous Renoir, several Van Goghs, including the famous self portrait, several El Greco’s, none with anybody in front of them, and several pieces I thought were incredible.

One whole room full of art influenced by Neo Classicism, caused by the discovery of Pompeii. All things Roman.

A Flemish artist early on before Rembrandt’s time, Steenwijk? Aeneas Rescues Ancihses from Troy said the audio tape but I thought somebody had moved the painting, till I saw the title. I have never seen anything like that, and would like to again. It wasn’t in the Gift Shop. There is an incredible Hall of Armor with some stunning art pieces running along side it, again not in the gift shop as post cards and me with no camera.

Thanks to this book I am really enjoying art museums and seeing art with new eyes. The museum is well laid out and presents things in periods with a super audio tape. Unfortunately when I went to see Grant Woods farmer and sister with pitchfork, the docent said “Oh he’s in Iowa!” It was cute how she put it, we had a good laugh over that one. Hahahaha I like that museum. There was one by the first painter ever known in Amsterdam. It’s a roundel and is simply exquisite, just gorgeous, about 4 feet around a with angels all over the place. Do we know who the very first known artist in Amsterdam was? He was GOOD I can tell you that. Shouldn’t we know that after reading all this?

Why one asks did I not take notes? I thought they would all be represented in the Shop by postcards, but they have so much important stuff there, the lesser stuff I guess is not covered.

I did see a lot of Flemish art, and a wonderful audio essentially said what our book has about the struggle between the Catholics and Protestants. I think the thing that surprised me the most was the accessibility of the art work and the friendliness of the way it was presented, you could get eyeball to panel and see the grains of wood and the cracks and STILL the pieces looked alive, it was wonderful.

I didn’t see a Rubens, but several from the “school of or style of Caravaggio.”

An interesting point made in the Pompeii Exhibition at the Field Museum, but about art, concerned one of the many frescoes they had brought. They explained what the word fresco meant and how it was done. They took one section which had been brought of a wall from Pompeii, and explained it in audio tape. It showed a long wall of tall figures with a border above them with windows showing apparent gardens beyond, with the window shutters open at each side. It was trompe d’oeil of course, but they explained that paintings were quite rare in times of the Romans. They were concerned that they not be exposed to light and thus fade, so they hung them when they had them with wooden frames over them to protect them, and these frames could be opened to show the painting. This fresco showed such “paintings” on the wall.

Another interesting thing concerned the gorgonic mosaic they had. It was constructed to fit in a tray type thing, about 4 feet by 3 feet, and that whole thing was placed into the floor, so when they left or maybe went to their summer house, they could take it with them. It was fascinating.

That is a VERY nice museum!! With some very fine and famous paintings.

In case there are any of my U.S. friends who have been too busy giving thanks
to stay with Schama's story of Rubens's life, I have attempted a précis of pages 132-150

October 1608 - death (? of cardiac asthma) of his mother, Maria. His father, Jan, had died in 1857.

Rubens (P.P.) aged 32 - married Isabella Brant, aged 18 - "complete with their marriage crowns"
to the accompaniment of "burping sackbuts" and "droning bagpipes" together with "bawdy verses"
and "exaggerated grandiloquence", and a best man speech from brother Philip referring to "conjugal
bed for innocent battles".

A truce broke out between the army of Flanders and the Spanish empire, resulting in the Seven
United Provinces in the North being split off as "free lands".

At the same time, P.P. works himself a deal with the Archduke Gonzaga, to avoid the necessity
of returning to Italy, and the drudgery of "the court" of the Duke of Mantua - - - he is allowed to live
and work in Antwerp - exempt from all state and city taxes - with no restriction on the number
(paying!!) students - plus a yearly honorarium of 500 florins. Quite a deal!

On the strength of this, he paints "Samson and Delilah" and a "Self-Portrait with Isabella" with
"effortless nonchalance".

In 1611 they have their first child, Clara Serena, and his brother Philip, dies. In 1626 Isabella
dies of cholera.

End of brief synopsis. Keep reading my friends, Rembrandt awaits.

Brian

Brian - that's terrific, thanks so very much.

Hope you enjoyed your Thanksgiving - we had ours in Canada earlier.
We both have a lot to give thanks for.

Brian

Brian - I did enjoy Thanksgiving with my youngest son (got to keep him longer than he planned - ha). I too have much to be thankful for.

OK, I couldn't resist. I've ordered the book. The chances of my getting to the local B&N (which is a parking nightmare) are small, when there is a Borders nearbye. It is the "hangout" for us senior bibliophiles. So I just took a chance and ordered online.

Maybe I'll finally become artistically literate. My poor mother did her best. She used to paint, and she wanted us to love art. So as children, she frequently took us to the DC art museums. She didn't realize that because I had low blood pressure (and flat feet), any situation where I had to stand for any length of time was torture to me. I decided that I HATED ART!!!!!!!!! (It never occurred to me that it was the standing I hated, not the art). As an adult, I managed to find some ways of looking at art sitting down, but I never quite recovered from my first exposure. Poor mom, she meant so well.

I have always wanted to paint. Hurrah to your mom!!

Maybe I should have gone to the local B&N store after all. I got two e-mails. The first said they'd let me know when it would ship. The second said due to unforeseen delays they couldn't ship at the time they told me. That's why I stopped ordering from B&N and moved to Amazon --- I found B&Ns shipping slow and unreliable. They're probably out and don't want to tell me.

I may have to apologize to B&N. They sent me an e-mail this morning that my book was ready to ship.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the next pages, which have what I think is a great painting on them.

is in. In fact the recording told me three times in English and three times in Spanish, just so I wouldn't forget to pick it up. I'll get it Monday. You'll all have to tell me where we are so I can speed-read and catch up with the discussion group.

Rich

with a little time to spare, so Mrs. Rich7 and I took a walk down Wilshire Blvd to the Armand Hammer Museum. It contained two Rembrandts.

One was called "Portrait of a Man Holding a Black Hat." What a dull name for a painting! Rubens may have influenced Rembrandt somewhat, but not in the titling of his works: Rubens: Sampson and Delilah, The Shipwreck of Aeneas, Rembrandt: Portrait of a Man Holding a Black Hat!

Have to go now. Back shortly with more about Rembrandt and the Armand Hammer Museum.

Rich

Great Rich, can't wait to hear your report, will you give it 3 times in English and Spanish? hahaaa

Joan I can't wait till you get that book!! I am excited to have all this art interest and activity! I don't see why we couldn't add it on as an adjunct I love it myself.

Rich, our pages are always in the title line here, so we're reading up to and including page 150 thru December 7th, in this way we're all au courant!

Thank you Brian for that super outline of what's in this section, I found it fascinating reading.

I loved reporting on the Man with a Gold Chain and look forward to hearing Rich on his experience, how rich a discussion (no pun intended) this has become!

So anyway, I really studied that painting. Like Ginny at the Chicago Art Institute, you could get as close to the painting as you wanted, as long as you didn't touch it.

(An aside: I visited the Chicago Art Institute years ago. For those of you who may not have gone there, the building, itself, is imposing- a large neoclassical temple sitting right out there on Michigan Avenue. When you walk up the wide granite stairs between the two massive carved lions, you know you're in for a treat before you even enter the museum.)

Back to "Portrait of a Man Holding a Black Hat." So I got up real close and looked at the eyes. Amazing! How do you put so much life and expression on a canvas with paint brushes? Have you ever noticed that when you look at a someone's eyes real close (or your own in a mirror) that there is a thin-lined pool of tears between the lower lid and the eye, itself? There is, and Rembrandt made it so realistic that you expected that if you touched the canvas, it would be wet.

Right next to the Rembrandt was a Rubens. Back later with more on the Rubens and the other Rembrandt at the Armand Hammer Museum.

Rich

RICH: amazing. I can't wait! (But don't forget to tell us when your grandchild arrives).

Hi Joan!

Thanks for asking. That's why we were in LA; to see our newly born first grandchild. I'm not much for oohing and aahing over newborns. In fact, they all looked to me like little red Martians. But this baby girl, seen through the eyes of a first-time grandfather was an angel: auburn hair, green eyes, little rosebud lips. Funny how your perception changes when it's your own grandchild.

Having a tough time thinking of myself as "Gramps," though. Maybe she will come up with a better name. I'm told that the first thing she calls you is the name that sticks. If she looks at me and says, "poopie," I guess I will thereafter be "Poopie." Maybe "Gramps" is not so bad, after all.

So, anyway, right next to the Rembrandt at the Armand Hammer Museum, hung a Rubens. It was titled "Young Woman With Curly Hair." It was a head and shoulders portrait of a very pretty young woman. She seemed to radiate a sense of confidence and tranquility from the canvas; a style very much unlike the dramatic and stormy Rubens paintings shown so far in this discussion.

Put a pearl earring in her ear, and she could have been a Vermeer.

Directly across the room from the first Rembrandt was another Rembrandt; a painting of the Roman goddess Juno. It's title was simply "Juno." The story behind the painting is interesting. His model for this piece was Rembrandt's housekeeper, who later became his mistress, and even later bore him a child. She looked a little "beefy" to me, but I guess Flemish painters at the time liked their ladies a little "Rubenesque."

The little plaque next to the painting stated that Rembrandt used touches of "impasto" in his technique for this work. I didn't know what "impasto" was, but I suddenly felt a strange craving for Italian food.

Rich

That's great, Rich. My niece claims that all newborns look like Winston Churchill, but you'll never convince a grandparent. Just wait til she sticks her little hand in your and says "I wov you, gramps".

Why poopie, this is so much fun, thank you for that super look, I almost felt I was there, too, Pictures at an Exhibition and my new book on Rembrandt came (and so did a book intended for a lady in Canada, so B&N took OFF my charge for the Rembrandt and then sent it anyway, along with her book about a sports hero), so am going to have to call them back, sigh sigh, but I'll look for your Rubenesque housekeeper, this is so fun. Museum reports (anybody want to talk about the sore feet report?)

I am not used to museums which allow you to get close to the great works, one hardly knows how to act hahahaa

Rich - thank you so much, wish I'd been with you on your tour of the museum.

impasto - paint is applied in thick layers, usually as highlights with a brush or palette knife as to project or bring that part of the image out and reflects when you view it.....the opposite of glazing, blending or a half-paste where a medium or gel is mixed with the pigments. Acrylic paint can also be impastoed (but I don't think acrylic paint had been invented yet in those days). The old masters used this technique all the time in folds of clothing, jewels and etc. (you all probably already know that).

Emma

Emma,

Thank you for the explanation of "impasto." I had no idea what it was, and your explanation was crystal clear. Wish you were with me when we viewed the Rembrandt and Rubens pieces.

I'm learning a lot from you folks.

Rich

Hey, I apologize again to B&N. My Italian Art book came today! It's INCREDIBLE!!! I don't know how the text is -- I was too busy looking at the pictures to actually read it. I love the close-ups -- you could drown in some of them. I spent half an hour looking at the close-up of Mona Lisa's face. And as long looking at David's face. I can't believe the book was only $14.98.

I agree with everything said here, I agree Rich that EmmaBarb is a gift, if I had had her at the Art Institute, who knows what I would have learned. I'm for learning! I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I totally agree Joan K, isn't it awesome? You almost don't care about the text, but I am picking up the odd end here and there that I certainly did not know, I agree you can sit mezmerized, and I feel like I know more whether or not I do is another question, I am so glad you like it! BRILLIANT, I agree totally.

I'm flattered by your comments, thank you. I too am learning (or like I prefer to say "discovering") things about art.

OK, so I now have the book.

Brian, thanks for the timely update to p150.

Pages 150 and 151 make sense to me. It seems that the Catholics were trying to structure a Counter-Reformation to balance the passion of the Reformation sweeping Europe. The idea of a "people's Bible" giving the man in the street images of Christianity that he can understand was a good idea and a pretty good start. Medieval Christian art was flat and two dimensional. Rubens representation of people was very lifelike. If he were to paint the life of Christ and the saints like he did the "Death of Seneca" (p149), these doctors of the Counter-Reformation might have something going for them.

Rubens' "The Elevation of the Cross" p155 is a great example of this effort. I think Schama called it Ruben's first masterpiece.

It sure is a precise example of two of Rubens' trade marks: the strong diagonal and lowered horizon that Professor Forgothisname drilled into my head in that elective art appreciation class over 40 years ago.

Rich

RICH: I love that painting. One (of many) things I don't know and hope to get is a feeling for the structure of a painting. Now that you point it out, I remember strong diagonals in other paintings of his. That surely is what gives this painting it's power (Later, Rembrandt will try a similar painting, without a strong line, and it's not nearly as effective IMHO).

What about the lowered horizon? Can you say more about it? (Did the course add to your appreciation, or do you just say "Yawn, another strong diagonal"?)

Hi Joan,

I wish I was better at this computer so we could get the painting up. Oh well!

The horizon is so low in "The Elevation of the Cross" that you can't see it. Looking over the shoulder of the man struggling with the ropes in the lower right, all you see is sky. The technique creates a feeling that you are somehow below all the participants in the scene, looking up at what's unfolding before you. Very dramatic. It took Hollywood until the landmark film "Citizen Kane" to think of applying the same technique to cinematography.

Rich

Here is The Elevation of the Cross. Click on the thumbnail for the large graphic.

Thank you, Pat.

Rich

RICH: that's very interesting. Once you say it, I can see it, but I wouldn't have noticed otherwise, just felt the dramatic effect.

I remember The Elevation of the Cross. A copy hung in my grandfather's study. As a child it frightened me, but now I think it is one of Rubens' best.

Pat you have such an interesting family, you ought to write about them, I recall your uncle had classical leanings, too.

Well here we are up to page 157 this week and I thought that Rich had made the most interesting statements I had read, like Joan K I did not see that till Rich said it, but then I read the descriptions, good points on the horizon Rich!!! I don't think I would have known what it was but it is claustrophobic, to me.

Interesting point Schama makes in how the diagonal causes the burden of the crucifixion to be on the very sinners on whose behalf the sacrifice was being made, that's brilliant.

Have any of you seen this in person? I've never been to Antwerp, I guess now I need to make a trip since I know what to look for.

I thought the three things that the Counter Reformation demanded in art were illuminating:

Every gesture had to be plain, no more enigmas

The imagery had to be painted with realism

The "religious paintings should attack the emotions powerfully enough to subdue any doubts and bring the believer into exalted communion with Christ and his Church."

So those really are different, all of a sudden interest here is ratcheting up.

I happen however to like, perhaps better, the flat images of the Medieval artists, to me they are poignant and breathtaking.

I loved the part about the piece having to fit into the specific architecture of the church, didn't you, and the sail cloth pulled across hiding Rubens, this, to me is much more romantic than almost anything we've had to date.

And I LOVED the description at the bottom of the next to last paragraph on what they did to St. Walburga's when building an extension and why. Builders lately fascinate me. I remember Blois in France, being the Loire Chateau I enjoyed the most because it so clearly showed how each new owner had adapted it , (although they all do, like Chenonceau). Loved that.

Now he speaks of the "predella" on pabe 152, subjects for the predella, what is a predella?

If you hold the book at an angle and think that you are 19 steps below the pulpit, the painting takes on another cast, too. I don't believe I have ever considered what it actually TOOK to raise a cross with a figure on it, in that way Rubens really engages the viewer and his emotions, and makes him think about all sorts of different things.

I'm not sure I see the Michelangelo connection to Adam tho in it, do any of you?

I DO see quite a few different people represented among those straining to raise the cross, tho.

Oh and even tho we brought HERE the Laocoon I did not make the connection, did any of you, to Christ's face here?

And now didn't it say God himself was supposedly to be above the scene? I am not seeing anything that would depict him, are you?

There is a super shot of a closed altarpiece coming up. These triptychs, weren't they made that way so they could be carried about? But surely this one would have been too large. What IS the history of those particular types of religious art? There are diptychs too. But even closed some of them are fantastic, we have some fantastic delights awaiting us in the sections coming up. I am thinking it's a good thing we ARE doing Rubens, his exuberant figures may make a wonderful counterpoint for Rembrandt.

Let's hear from everybody on what struck YOU about any of this?

Now it looks like the Miracle of St. Walburga is in a museum in Leipzig, where would IT have fit on this set of panels, do you think?

Ginny, I don't think there was to be a representation of God in the painting, itself. Schama took some license by putting himself into Rubens' mind, and telling us how the painter planned to lay out the center panel of the triptych.

"Why not create a tragic study in uplift, with the composition pushing the beholder's attention up the body of the Savior to his eyes, themselves rolled up in agony and supplication toward the Father whose own image would be set into the space immediately above the painting."

I got from that the thought of Rubens making a separate image of God on another canvas which would be placed above the center panel.

Where I think the author went a little too far is in the suggestion that the extended arm of the executioner (in blue loincloth) is reminiscent of the outstretched arm of God painted by Michelangelo on the roof of the Sistene Chapel. I googled the Michelangelo work and compared the arms. I don't see much in common other than the fact that they are both arms. The eye is drawn to the extended finger of God on the Sistene Chapel; the hand of the executioner in Rubens' painting is not even shown.

I like Sharma's comment on the importance of that single painting:

"Our Flemish gentleman returned from Italy might finally swell with satisfaction that in the plain old harbor church, with its poop-deck choir, the local Michelangelo had finally, and beyond all possible refutation, overthrown the Florentine's assumption that all his countrymen were good for were landscapes."

Rich

predella -- painted panel belonging to a series of panels attached along the bottom of the altarpiece (I think).

Thank you, Emma.

You know, folks, I find myself constantly turning back to the cover of the book to assure myself that the subject of the book is Rembrandt. Maybe this is all an elaborate trick to get us to read about Rubens.

Rich

hahhaa Well so far it's worked? hahahaa

Thank you EmmaBarb, I wonder what's in place of the St. Walburga panel now, have any of you been to that church? What an educational experience THIS is (at least so far).

I think that Sharma said that the church was torn down in 1817. So, unless some of us are reaaaal seniors, it would be impossible to have visited St. Walburga's.

Rich

St Walburga was a Brit !

Proof can be found, together with an interesting article on Saints in general,

at : - http://www.stthomasirondequoit.com/SaintsAlive/id578.htm

Brian

Brian -- Thanks for the link re Sister Walburga. The Abbess, I guess this is the female version of the Abbott.

Brian, Nice story on our St. Walburga. It's interesting how so many countries adopted her as theirs, and changed the spelling of her name to fit their language.

Just went into your home page. Spectacular photography! The shot of the redpoll against the snow and pine branches is my favorite.

Rich

I have been tied up with so many other things lately that I have not posted many of my recent photos.
Once we get the curling playdowns, the Brier, Christmas and New Years out of the way, I will add a few more pictures.

Brian

THERE'S our Brian, I wondered where you were!

I'll be offline on a trip from tomorrow morning until Thursday, so I look forward to reading all of your insighful comments then, we've become a real group here, I'm very amazed at us, discussions about ART books have NEVER gone well here till this one!

See you Thursday!

BRIAN: checked into your website. Only the top two photos showed on my browser -- the others had the dreaded red x . But those two were very good. I envy you your Towsend Solitaire. What a find. And your redpolls -- there was only one winter I can remember when they came as far South as my yard in Maryland -- I was lucky to get two at my feeder. But that was years ago, and I have no picture.

Of course, we have no hope of the beautiful mountain bluebird, but the Eastern bluebird is pretty cool. They used to nest in my home grounds, but it's now too built up for them.

Emma, Trying to know the folks in this discussion, I clicked onto your web page. Beautiful art. I know most, if not all, is computer generated, but it looks a lot like watercolor. The fall lake with the moving water was amazing.

Joan, On the subject of birds. I recently moved from New England to the Sonoran Desert. What a change in the bird population! Road runners everywhere, very comical looking birds. Cactus wrens have built a nest in a cholla cactus just beyond my back yard. I have seen more hummingbirds in a week than in a lifetime back in New England. Families of quail are often running (always in single file) across the patio. They seem to be in a perpetual great hurry to get somewhere. There's a Northern Harrier that recently has taken to sitting on a mesquite tree about 20 yards out into the desert from my back yard. It's a beautiful bird in flight, flying close to the ground, hardly moving its wings, looking for lunch.

Rich

If the pictures don't come up straight away - - - click on the reset button.

Brian.

Rich - thanks so much for taking time to view my computer art webpages.

Ginny ~ have a great trip...stay safe.

Brian - I'd dearly love to see all your photos.....sad but this old computer takes forever to download so many on one page. I did see the little downy and to the first deer but that's as far as I could go

I've been printing off some of my Christmas cards this evening and think I'm running out of ink.
Emma

RICH: that sounds like fun: having a whole new world of birds to explore. I think I would be greedy and want both the new ones and my old friends.

The marsh hawk is one. They used to hunt in the field in back of my house hovering as you say, close to the ground. And once I saw a pair doing a beautiful courtship display. Like the bluebirds, it is now too built up for them.

BRIEN: thanks, I'll try that.

Just like I've never seen a mountain bluebird, I had never seen curling until the last Winter Olympics. Because the US women's team did better than usual, one of the cable channels covered it, and my niece became a fan. She explained it to me, and gave me a tape. I loved it!! (Never mind that in one of the games your Canadian team wiped the floor with us -- for the non-curling US it was a miracle just to get to play you). I wish I could see more matches.

- - - always a curler.

JoanK - - - I started curling 40 years ago, and am still curling three times a week.
Our Womens Team from Canada, has just been named, having won the right in the Playdowns,
hails from Calgary, Alberta.

And our Mens Rink comes from Halifax, Nova Scotia. They won a close game this afternoon to get the honour. Story here : - http://www.tsn.ca/curling/news_story.asp?ID=146638&hubName=curling

Brian

I'm reminded of the time I tried curling while on a skiing vacation in Canada many years ago. The curling rink was right next to the outdoor heated pool. We all tried it then jumped into the pool

Curling looks like a fun game. I've never seen it played live; only on film. The announcer always tells you that it is Canada's national sport while the camera focuses on someone frantically sweeping the ice in front of the (disc?) with a (broom?). "Disc" and "broom" are probably the wrong words, but it looks like fun. After reading Brian's links it's clear that Canadians take the sport very seriously.

Lacrosse is another sport that I think was Canadian in origin. Lacrosse is reaching considerable popularity in American colleges and prep schools.

Rich

Yes, curling IS great fun. And we do sweep with brooms, but we don't sweep "discs" we sweep "rocks".
A rock is a slab of granite with a handle, and it weighs 44 pounds.

When I was younger, we used to use straw brooms, and lift the rock on the "back swing", but now,
even the pro's tend to push out of the hack with the rock on the ice all the way, and the sweepers use
more conventional brooms (as you might on a wooden floor).

I don't know much about lacrosse, but you may have gathered that I am an avid curler!

Perhaps we should get back to Schama?

Brian

Just re-read Brian's link to the curling olympic trials held in Halifax, Nova Scotia. It seems that Mr. Gushue, who just won a berth on the Canadian Olympic team is from Newfoundland. Being from Newfoundland that would make him a "Newfie."

I visited Newfoundland a couple of years ago, and love the place and the people (in the summer). It seems that Canadians enjoy "Newfie" jokes, even Newfoundlanders, themselves. This is a "Newfie" joke told to me by a resident of Deer Lake, Newfoundland.

It seems that many of the people in Newfoundland are in favor of the Provence of Quebec withdrawing from Canada. Reason: It will make the drive to Toronto much shorter.

Rich

Brian,

I think we just posted simultaneously. Yes, lets get back to Schama.

Rich

Loved your "Newfie" joke, and yes, you are quite right, Gushue hails from Newfoundland and Labrador. His rink, like most of the contestants, has a "fifth man" - - - in this case, Russ Howard, who is an older man, and failed to make the playoffs with the rink which he skipped (chose the shots to be played, and threw the last two rocks). Howard threw second rocks and held the broom for Gushue, who threw the "skip rocks" (the last two). The older and wiser head prevailed in the round robin and the final game.

I am in Heaven. the curling was of an unbelievably high calibre, and the mail has just arrived with a copy of the Great Masters of Italian Art, which I had ordered from B. & N. I add my vote to the people who want to discuss this book - - - either as an adjuvant to, or immediately after we plough through the rest of Schama's epic.

What say you, Ginny?

Brian

Brian, I'm not Ginny, but I think she said she would be on a trip until Thursday.

Maryal

I am sure we can wait - - -

Brian

We used a straw broom the time I tried curling in Canada.

I just received an art book I ordered and am disappointed in the quality of the prints as well as the price....not worth it to me. Also there are 112 pages but the text is large and only a line or two in the center of the page opposite the image. I definitely need to stick to only purchasing art books I can visually check out first At least at my book store if they order the book for me I'm not obligated to take it if I don't like it.
Emma

Can someone tell me please, what's the image on the cover of "the great masters of Italian art" by Capretti ? I looked for it today in my book store and even tried to order it but nothing was found on their database ?

Emma, Click here for the image and book info.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?hgg=y&cds2Pid=9951&isbn=0760771464

Michaelangelo?

Rich

OK, as long as we're asking questions, I have one.

I had to scan the first 150 pages of the book to get caught up with you folks, and I did not catch anything that explains the title: "Rembrandts's Eyes." Did I miss it, or is the author maybe saving the title tie-in for later?

Rich

RICH: when he talks about the first Rembrandt picture, the artist in his studio, he talks about Rembrandt's eyes. He also does a whole thing on how artists learn to draw eyes. (I'll get the page no, if I can find it. The book is so big, I have no place to put it near my computer.

Now that you have the book, I'm curious what you think of it.

One quick thing more on curling, then I'll get back to Schama. In one of the games I saw (the women's gold medal game), it came down to the last rock. If the skip could avoid three obstacles, have the rock go straight, then at the end curl at just the right time and in just the right angle and stop dead on a dime, Scotland would win. If any of those things didn't happen, Switzerland would win. Scotland did it!!!!!!!!!!! My mouth was falling open for an hour afterwords. I'm in awe of such skill. Is there any way you can explain at all, how they could have such control? How much was the skip, and how much the brooms?

Back to Rubens and the Elevation of the Cross (sorry for sending us down a side road, but great sports is art too).

I liked Schama's Analysis of the painting a lot. But in one place I disagree with him. Looking at the painting, I realize why I like the painting, and why I don't like many religious paintings. It's very simple when I realized it -- I don't like crowds!! Most religious paintings are full of crowds of people, as is the lower triangle of this one. But the upper triangle is full of trees.

Schama says that the trees give a claustrophobic air to the painting. I know many people find woods claustrophobic-- I have heard that a number of times. I am not one of them. I grew up in a woodsy area and all my life, when school, work or family have gotten too much for me, I have "escaped" and gone for a walk in the woods. There, I seem to be able to find myself again.

So I was reacting to this painting: the area below the cross is toil, crowds noise (it looks noisy!) As you get above the cross, it is peaceful, and you can find yourself.

I have no idea if Rubens intended this. Probably not, since if seen as part of the triptych, this effect would be lost. But it's interesting, how one can react to a picture without knowing why. This explains why I kept trying to make the somewhat ethereal figure at the head and above the cross into a saint who was worshiping Christ.

Hey Joan,

I agree with you about having no place to put the book down around the computer. I pulled up another chair and have the book sitting on the chair.

I remember reading the section about the self-portrait of Rembrandt in his studio, where he looks like a lost little boy, dwarfed in perspective by his easel. Schama described Rembrandt's eyes in that portrait as something like featureless round coals in his sockets. They looked to me like Little Orphan Annie eyes, only black, not white.

You asked how I like the book. It's hard for me to say, yet, because I have only seriously read the section on Ruben's work "Elevation of the Cross." So far, I am finding the book interesting, especially since the author puts the paintings in an historic perspective. I don't always agree with what Schama says about a painting, but that's O.K. because art is very subjective. What is it they say about the eye of the beholder?

I find myself getting ahead on the reading. The problem with a page a day is that Schama goes on for pages about a particular painting, and it's difficult to stop in the middle of a point that the author is developing. Maybe we should do two, three, or four pages a day. Right now, I'm anxious to get off "The Elevation of the Cross," and move on to other things.

Rich

Rich - thanks for that link. That's the one I thought (ISBN: 0760771464)

The making of a shot in curling, or for that matter in golf also, depends on doing several different and distinct things in order, and totally without having to think about them, either before or during the shot.

Any thought about a particular shot has to have been developed over months of repetitions, so that the person making the shot just has to feel that it will be perfect because he/she has done it before, so many times.

In curling, the important parameters are the speed of the rock, the turn put on the handle, the "line" of the passage of the rock, and desired portion of the rock which has to be hit to remove it, or to come around to make the next target more difficult for your opponent. Often you will see the team standing around the skip trying to decide - - - "if we put our rock HERE what will they do ?"

For the observer, either at the rink or on T.V., the excitement is increased by imagining that one has to make the decisions and then carry out the shot to be made. I, myself, sit with a stopwatch, and give verbal advice to my T.V. set on the efficacy of each and every performance. I believe that I am as at least as tired at the end of a watched curling game as the most energetic curler on the ice. Certainly as tired as I am when I have actually finished a game in which I have taken part.

Brian

I love this! I'm so glad you're here, Rich and as you all can see, I've altered the heading now to encompass up to page 164.

We'll take a short holiday break then and return the more invigorated on the 27th.

I must say my new book on Rembrandt is like reading about another artist...well it IS really, isn't it? And I am disappointed to find Man With a Golden Chain not IN the book, apparently it's truly not thought to be one of his.

I will say that Schama here has done something smart. We are now used to Rubens, and Rembrandt is a shock from Rubens or at least he is to me, am I the only one?

I am not sure that I would have noticed such a difference, had Schama not presented it from this perspective, I'm not sure I would have fully appreciated the difference. It makes you wonder who this book was written FOR? But let's press on, what in these new pages has struck you, particularly?

The floor is now open for your comments! When I can get everything the brick mason wants arranged for him to his satisfaction, I'll be back.

Thanks so much, Rich. The discussion on how to paint eyes is on page 18, right after the discussion of the artist in his studio.

I went on to the Descent from the Cross. Here, Schama calls the "strong diagonal" a tragic arc". It is pointed in the other direction from that of the Ascent. Again, I like Schama's analysis, but St. John seems too graceful a figure to be accepting the "burden of faith".

Thanks, Joan for the page reference on how eyes are painted. I particularly enjoyed the part on how different emotions can be depicted by changing the size of the pupil or how low the eyelid drapes over the eye, itself.

Speaking of emotions and paintings, I heard a news report, today, that a group of scientists used a newly designed instrument, computer, and emotion recognition software to study the Mona Lisa's smile to determine why she was smiling. Their conclusion: She was smiling because she was happy!

Talk about having a firm grasp of the obvious.

More on the story: http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=129941&Sn=WORL&IssueID=28270

Rich

Ginny ~ glad you're back and hope your doing well after your trip. Guess it's good to take a short break during this time of year when many are busy or out of town.

I think it's interesting how Rockox wanted Rubens to paint a grandiose sacred work for the cathedral to complete "his own curriculum vitae".....like he wanted to take full credit for it.
A list of Antwerp master artists I've not heard of before comes before me: Frans Floris, Michiel Cocxie, Marten de Vos, Danielle de Volterra, and Federico Borocci ??

Rich - that's interesting about the software recognition. I wonder what effect that has on today with so many people (I'm not one of them) having plastic surgery to make a permanent smile
Emma

EMMABARB: "A list of Antwerp master artists I've not heard of before comes before me: Frans Floris, Michiel Cocxie, Marten de Vos, Danielle de Volterra, and Federico Borocci ?? "

I wondered about that too. What may be the explanation came later, when Schama mentions that the masterpiece of one of them was among the paintings destroyed in the earlier religious riots. Could there be a whole generation of painters who we'll never know because their work was destroyed?

EmmaBarb and JoanK

I get the feeling that Schama is referring to Mannerism.

Marten de Vos and Frans Floris can both be found on The Web Gallery of Art, and were both Mannerists. I have not been able to find the other painters.

There is a good article on Mannerism HERE http://www.nga.gov/collection/gallery/gg21/gg21-over1.html#jump

Brian

JoanK ~ what a sad loss.

Brian - great link on "mannerism", thanks.

We'll get back to Rembrandt in the next couple of weeks.

Dec 21 (Wed) 9 PM (in my area on Maryland Public-TV),"St. Peter and St. Paul"...With the words of Paul and other ancient writers, interviews with contemporary scholars, and dramatic reenactments, "Peter and Paul" explores how two men weathered crippling disagreements and political persecution to lead one of history's most astonishing religious movements. (FYI)

I'm not getting ANYTHING in the world done here! Hahha I'm supposed to be decorating, supposed to be cooking, supposed to be wrapping and INSTEAD I'm reading! First this book (it looks like Rubens will be with us a long time yet, EmmaBarb, but maybe he mixes in Rembrandt, I am anxious to see where this all leads, IF in fact it DOES lead anywhere).

Thank you for that information, EmmaBarb, and to all of you for your informative discussion, especially on the artists now missing. Did you catch that footnote on the Christ Crossing the River (or whatever title it was) stolen from the Boston Museum in 1990 and never seen again? That's a sort of pity, too, tho one assumes it's some fantastically rich nut case who just had to have it.

I need personally to go back to the Art Institute in Chicago.

At any rate, I'm not sure how to read this book and do the footnotes also. I am somewhat overcome with Schama's truly encyclopedic knowledge, but at the same time his own conclusions presented AS fact or supposition which don't have footnotes.

On the one hand he's obviously an extremely learned man (St. Cyril? That part alone was almost worth that page,) and at least he DOES give citation. But on the other hand it makes you realize that every writer of history has bias, and their own opinions.

And it's really hard for me to know what to really think? One would suppose that I should take his word for it till I know better (since I know nothing) so I guess that's the best plan.

I had an awful time finding Mary's toothless smile, the side panels are much too tiny to make out, I still am not sure I see it? Was John the Baptist alive at the Crucifixion? Why do I think he died before it? (This will show my awful lack of Biblical knowledge). Was he actually present (I know that Rockox wasn't and I understand painting your patrons into the piece, but wouldn't putting John the Baptist there sort of defeat the purpose of the painting in the first place? Somebody straighten me out).

So some of the things that jumped out at ME in this are:

the repositioning of the paintings of the Elevation and Descent from the Cross and the destruction of the original church. Destroying of religious items after I read our section, including the destruction of the Assumption of the Virgin by Floris, led me to my new book on the last days of Henry VIII where I'm reading the same sort of thing in a much more readable style, in fact, I can't put it down and read the first 66 pages at one sitting. Do you realize that Henry at his death was estimated to weigh 38 stone? A stone is 15 pounds! He was 6' 3". All his story seems in counterpart to this, it's fascinating, it really is.

I did not understand the reference to Rockox's vita as his being the "Maecenas of Antwerp." What is that in reference to? I do understand the vita as his Resume or summary of life events, but what has Maecenas to do with it? I've also got a book on Antwerp. The last time I went to Amsterdam and Bruges my youngest son said don't, on any account, miss Antwerp and of course I did, so now I can read about it with fresh eyes!

Wasn't it interesting about the legend of St. Christopher? I had never heard that version before, did you? Now when he refers to the "Farnese Hercules," I'm not thinking I am familiar with it, are you all?

Now the explanation of the back of the triptych was neato except I am not sure who the "hermit with the lantern is?" Did I miss something? I do understand what Schama says is the symbolism.

What other thoughts do you all have on this part? I am comparing the handling here to the new book I just bought. I am not sure as yet which I prefer. This of course is much much more in background, yet you feel strangely unsatisfied, vis a vis, the explanations of the paintings themselves, or do you? How many HAS he explained so far in detail?

Rembrandt is going to be a REALLY different artist. I think when we get there we can make our own conclusions as to whether or not Schama has succeeded? Or indeed, as to what he's doing?

Last night I watched video cassette of Richard Strauss "Salome" - - - a propos of nothing at all, but you will find a history of the life of the Holy man
http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/JohnTBaptist.htm

Henry VIII - - - A stone is 14 lbs, not 15. This would put the estimate of his weight at a fearsome 532 lbs - - - no wonder he had difficulty in getting an heir.

The Legend of St Christopher - - -
http://www.paintedchurch.org/caxchris.htm (URL of Legend of St Christopher from William Caxton)

The hermit with a lantern - - -
http://www.paintedchurch.org/cottered.htm (URL of Hermit with the Lantern)
A hermit with a Lantern is represented on Tarot Cards as meaning searching for the heights of spiritual knowledge.

Let the redecorating wait!

Brian

http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=ER13610552

- - - and a Happy Holiday to cover all the bases.

Brian

Ginny & Brian ... you both give me lots to think about, and just how much history that's not about art or painting I really care about. My brain is on overload right now (ha).

Emma,

You're right. Who'd have thought in a discussion about Rembrandt that we'd be learning about John the Baptist, St. Christopher, and the hermit with the lantern, not to mention that interesting church in St. Albans. (I wonder if there's a connection between the story of the hermit and Diogenes and his lamp, serching for an honest man. Religions have been known to adopt and modify prior fables and legends.)

I've always said that when I take a trip, it's not a successful one if I haven't learned something new. I'm learning something new almost every day on this trip with all of you.

Rich

Ginny,

Your question about why Rockox was considered the Maecenas of Antwerp got me wondering, too. My wondering was less learned than yours, because I had no idea who Maecenas was, let alone why Rockox would be compared to him.

This reference to Maecenas in the Colombia Encyclopedia, I think, answers our question.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ma/Maecenas.html

The last sentence tells us that his name is a symbol for the wealthy, generous patron of the arts.

Rich

Just as you are learning "more than you need to know" - - - so am I !

But it's fun, isn't it? Perhaps when we finally get to Rembrandt we will continue to find out about everything else in the world other than Rubens and ART in general.

Brian

I see from the BBC, that digereedoo playing, Rolf Harris - - - of "Tie me Kangaroo down, Sport"
and "Jake the peg (with the extra leg)" has painted an official portrait of the Queen.

Official Portrait of the Queen

I wonder if Schama will write a book about it?

Brian

Rolf Harris painting the Queen? "I remember that tune, Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport."

Tan me hide when I'm dead, Fred

Tan me hide when I'm dead

So we tanned his hide when he died, Clyde

And that's it hanging on the shed.

So this man now gets to do an official portrait of the Queen. You know, some of the most unlikely people were accomplished artists: Winston Churchill, Humphrey Bogart, Edward G. Robinson, so I guess Harris has more talent than just writing and singing Australian novelty tunes.

Rich

Rolf Harris is a man of many talents, and an artist first. I really like his portrait of the Queen. I'd enjoy seeing more of his artwork.

The Rockox House Museum in Antwerp was once the home of 17th-century burgomaster Nicholas Rockox, art collector and friend of Rubens. What is a burgomaster anyway ? I suddenly got an urge for a trip to McDonald's

How on earth did we get from Maecenas to kangaroos so quickly? Only on Seniornet. I admit, I'd never heard of either Maecenas or Harris.

OK, here are the lyrics to Rolf harris's songs:

HARRIS LYRICS

Ginny,

In post #561 you mention that you could not see Mary's toothless smile. The reason that you can't find it is it's not there. In a convoluted paragraph on the top of p164 several names are mentioned, but I get from it that it is the prophetess Anna who is smiling the toothless smile in the right panel.

I wish we had a better view of the panel, because the author says Rubens shows Anna's hands praying and playing with the baby at the same time. That's a pretty good trick, but the illustration in the book doesn't give us a good enough view. Maybe in the interest of developing a deeper understanding of Flemish art by this discussion group, we can petition Senior Net to send us each airline tickets to Antwerp so we can get a better view of the work.

There must be some form we fill out for that, right?

Rich

A little in the dark, but toothless right enough.

Brian

Rich - I'm all for that ! Wouldn't that be something if SeniorNet flew us all to Antwerp.

toothless smile ~ it's not the norm for artists to show teeth... it does appear Anna is missing some teeth.

Brian, Nice job showing a closeup of Anna from the panel. How did you do that?

Emma, I'm watching the mail for my tickets.

Is there a reason why artists avoid showing teeth in their subjects?

Rich

Well done, our Rich, well done!! I obviously misread that and am really glad to SEE the correct painting, AND person, and don't see teeth but don't see LACK of teeth, either hahahaha Don't see anything but the right painting, thank you! I'm on for Antwerp!!

I don't know why artists avoid teeth, but I DO know why so many of our forebears never smiled in old photos: their teeth were so bad and rotten.

Mycenas still seems an unlikely reference, to me, to mention in the face of all those Farneses and Popes and Borgheses. I'm still a bit surprised. Maecenas, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, died in 8 BC but was the most famous Roman literary patron , being Augustus' right hand man and supporting such figures in a literary circle as Virgil, Horace, Propertius, and Varius.

Literary?

The rewards for these protégés were great: Horace owed his Sabine farm and Virgil his independence to him, and both poets addressed him in terms of admiration and gratitude; they made a substantial return by supporting the imperial regime in their poetry. Maecenas is said to have suggested to Virgil the subject of the Georgics. Only fragments survive of his own poetry and prose. Seneca regarded him as typical of the adage that they style is the man, perhaps indicating a complex personality. After the conspiracy and execution of his brother-in-law Varro Murena in 23 BC a coolness developed between Maecenas and Augustus and his political career came effectively to an end. He was a man of luxurious tastes and habits (he is said to have introduced heated swimming-baths at Rome), and spent the closing years of his life in the enjoyment of a cultivated leisure.

Now I don't personally see this sentence, " the Rubens-besotted patrician who wanted a grandiose sacred work for the cathedral to complete his own curriculum vitae as the Maecenas of Antwerp," to necessarily follow. It's true Maecenas was a patrician also, but there are SO many other ART patrons, who were accustomed to urge on great works of ART (and to have themselves portrayed in them) that I am not sure this is somewhat of a stretch. Who was Rockox right hand man to? I need to know more about Rockox! I would have thought the Borghese family or the Farnese, or any number of other people would more fit this model, myself.

More to learn! Thank you for that reference, Rich!

Rich - - - " How was it done? "

First, find a better image - then, download it to my computer - then, enlarge the cropped area,
next save as a JPEG file and compress to allowable size (35 Kb for SeniorNet) - then, upload to my
Home Page with FTP software - and finally place THAT URL in a post to this group as an image.

Nothing to it!

Method of file compression is demonstrated by the entry at the head of this discussion. (Graphic Sizing and Posting Procedures)

Brian

Oh honestly, I should have known it was BRIAN with the fabulous image~! hahaaha Well the brick mason has left and I can concentrate a bit more now, thank you BRIAN for, as per, your wonderful images, it's ANNA and not Mary and BRIAN and not Rich tho it was Rich, I hope who talked about Maecenas!

I better look again, can we tell who is distracted? hmmm? hahahaaa Even not distracted I'm not much!

Don't give me that, Ginny. you're the motor that keeps us running (and running to catch up).

Artists painting teeth in in a portrait....a smile showing teeth sometimes distorts the face. Teeth in portraits can be a delicate problem and often benefit when downplayed....unless of course it's a precious child. When you do see teeth I think one can assume the painting was done from a photograph.

Joan, bless your kind heart, right back at 'cha.

EmmaBarb, how interesting!! Now I'll spend my time looking for and at teeth in old paintings, I am loving this discussion, you've all made it viable and alive!

The fire on the left is to heat the cautery instrument required to staunch the bleeding after the extraction.

Brian

Off subject as usual. Did anyone see the biography of Queen Elizabeth I on PBS? At one point, she had a toothache, but she was afraid to let her followers extract the tooth.

So in order to convince her that there was nothing to fear, the approached a man who was out of favor with the Queen. When he had been introduced to the queen, he had inadvertently let out a rude noise. Since then, the Queen wouldn't have anything to do with him. The courtiers persuaded him that if he would let them extract one of his teeth in front of the Queen to show that it was safe, she would forgive him.

They extracted the (healthy) tooth, and she forgave him.

Brian -- I love the art you posted re tooth extraction....yikes sure am thankful for our modern dental techniques.

JoanK ~ rude noise indeed, I think I'd go along with the Queen's decision

Read about it HERE http://www.cbc.ca/story/arts/national/2005/12/22/Rembrandt-WhiteBonnet.html

Brian

Brian - isn't that some find !
After restoration and removal of the fur collar, the original painting looks like this click here.
http://edwardwinkleman.blogspot.com/

EmmaBarb - - - that's quite a facelift they have given the old lady!

Brian

You all are very close to meeting Rembrandt in the book. Have faith for he's coming soon.

Marvelle

Brian,

Thanks for the info on enlarging and cropping images for posting on senior net. Whew! It's a technical challenge for me to turn the computer on in the morning and find my e-mail.

I'll just have to settle for enjoying the images that you bring to the discussion. (By the way, the Medievel dentist image was great.)

Joan, The tooth story about QEI was funny. However, I don't think watching a healthy tooth being extracted from a reluctant victim sans anesthetic would make ME any more willing to have it done!

Emma, The teeth (or lack therof) in art is interesting. Now that you mention it, I don't remember seeing teeth in paintings. Maybe it's sort of like comic strip characters:- You've probably noticed that they all have only three fingers on each hand. (I love comic strips. Some of us never mature in some departments.)

Marvelle, How do you know that? Are you reading ahead, hmmmm?

Rich

One more comment about "Elevation of the Cross" and "Descent from the Cross." It's almost hard to believe that they were executed by the same man who painted "The Four Philosophers" not that long before. I found myself turning the pages back and forth between the "Cross" paintings and the "Philosophers" wondering what came over Rubens between the two efforts.

The composition in the "Philosophers" seems to be almost clumsy:- In my opinion, the eye does not know exactly where to look. The page where the finger is pointed? The awkward pot of a few flowers balanced in the overhead nook? The various directions where the philosophers are looking. (Each in his own direction, by the way.)

On the other hand, even to an untrained eye like mine, the composition (not to mention technique) of the "Cross" paintings is brilliant.

Did Rubens go through some kind of "epiphany" or rebirth, artistically, that we should know about? Did Sharma mention such an event, and I missed it?

Rich

Rich -- not sure if memory serves me right but didn't Rubens paint in his brother after he died ?
When I was a little kid I used to have fun drawing the comic book characters, then when my kids were little I drew some for them to color...my youngest son loved Snoopy.

Last month, the Armand Hammer museum in L.A. had a traveling exhibit of comic strip art. The strips that they chose to show were older than the ones I remember growing up with, but the names were familiar, such as Gasoline Alley, and Krazy Kat.

In the introductory explanation of the exhibit it was explained that the early comic strip creators were somewhat influenced by Japanese print art. That made no sense to me. Anyway, we spent the morning looking at early comic strip art.

Mrs Rich7 and I had lunch, and instead of going back to the hotel, we decided to spend the afternoon looking at the rest of the collection at the museum. It turns out that the Armand Hammer Museum has an extensive collection of Japanese prints, so Japanese prints were next on the agenda. Well, guess what? Each Japanese print looked like a "frame" from a Sunday color comic, especially the prints depicting people doing things.

You're never too old to learn.

Rich

No you're not, and it seems SO much more fun now than it did, doesn't it? It just means SO much!

I've learned about shape note singing from Thursday's NPR concert and now in the Book Nook and now here we've learned about the origin of comic strips and the parallel to Japanese prints!! I remember those old comic strips well, wasn't it Humphrey with the house on the back of his bicycle? Anyway, that sort of book is now becoming more popular, thanks to books like Maus and the one about the British couple and the bomb and there are two new ones out about a woman in Afghanistan, all very well thought of AS literature, ars gratia artis, after all.

Maybe Brian can put a Japanese print up some day for us so we can see the comparison, thank you for that, Rich! And EmmaBarb, how I wish I COULD draw!! hahaaa That's so creative of you.

I agree, Rich, there does seem to have been a change and you'd really think with all the description there might have been a nod to it, maybe there WAS and I missed it? But then Rembrandt's stuff looks different, too. We will definitely learn a lot from this, I'm so glad we're reading it, and in such fine company.

Happy Happy Everyone, peace and joy: we'll take a short "official" break now but resume on the 27th, but you can of course chirp along at any time!

"So where did you say they are having this sale?"

"Lift up your end a little!"

And a Merry Christmas to all !!!

Brian

Brian,

Thank you for posting the colorful Japanese prints. They do sort of look like comic strips, don't they?

Merry Christmas to all my friends in this discussion!

Rich

I love the Japanese prints. I have two huge volumes of "The Art of East Asia" (talk about this book being big and heavy....whew!).

"'Tis the Season"--original computer art by Emma
With very best wishes,
Emma

Interesting prints.

Thanks for the lovely Christmas greeting, Emmabarb.

Yes, Emma I agree with Joan. Your Christmas card was beautiful. And speaking of Japanese prints, your card looked, to me, like it had a little oriental inspiration.

Rich

Thanks for the nice comments about my card.
I've always had a desire to take some classes in oriental brushwork. Someone gave me a chop and a pretty little red ink pad as a gift a few years ago (I think it's my name but not sure)....the man has since passed away.
Emma

Emma, what a gorgeous card and art, I love the different ways art can be done, including the computer, thank you for that. Thank you also Brian for the wonderful illustrations, love it.

This is somewhat of an interesting section, tho I am not sure what Antwerp's fall or decline has to do with anything, but I would love to see some of those engravings a bit larger of Wapper and isn't it interesting that that was one of the first things important for the rebuilding after WWI? I am REALLY caught up in WWI right now in my reading, the beginnings of it, anyway.

I think I would have loved to see the model of Wapper for the World's Fair of 1910, it sounds wonderful. Models seem very popular with the Dutch, even today, there are several huge towns of scaled down models as I recall that you can visit, quite impressive. I'm thinking of Madurodam, especially.

I'm somewhat confused about the "bacon-rasher" brick effect. We just had our fireplace repaired and in the process I asked the mason about the "grapevine pattern" of bricks which we'd had an earlier estimate on for some work for us and he said yes he had done it, in fact was doing one now. I had been told it would be appropriate for us as vineyardists but which would add great cost and take a great deal of time, so I did not do it. I could not picture it in my mind, but he said it's NOT a pattern in the brick at all! But rather instead in the mortar, the mortar looks like a vine, snaking around. I am not sure what all that means, but it has caused me not to go overboard fantasizing about bacon rasher brick till I find out what it IS. Hahahaa

I got another huge art B&N $19 book for Christmas called The Louvre which shows several of the artists in their collection we've been talking about, they refer to Rembrandt as Rembrandt Harmenz van Rijn, they have a Carpaccio (just mentioning some of the artists we've talked about here), they take two gigantic pages showing Otto Venius Painting Surrounded by his Household by Van Veen, they take an entire page for Ruben's Adoration of the Magi and the Arrival of Marie de Medicis at Marseilles and many many more. I really like The Cheat by Georges de la Tour, which takes up two pages. I guess I like flat art, I don't quite know how to describe it.

Interesting sort of leap, would you say Schama has made in judgment on page 166, the "eminences of the church of beauty." He seems to be saying that these Netherlanders saw themselves as the counterparts of the cardinals and their art possessions. Things like that make me stop. I am not sure if I should believe that or not? How did you take it?

The back wall in the photo of the Allegory of Sight, tho, on page 168, really bears strong resemblance to today's Rembrandthuis, don't you think?

This is yet another version of Rembrandt's "Cabinet," his collection of items, but it's remarkably similar to the back wall of the painting, I think. It was actually located on what we would call the third floor. The Rembrandt House Museum Guide mentions that had he NOT collected and built up this collection, he "would have been able to pay off the loan on his house and he would probably not have gone bankrupt. But Rembrandt needed his collection: he wanted to surround himself with all these beautiful and fascinating things from all four corners of the earth at any price." (The Rembrandt House Museum Guide page 54).

Actually the Louvre book has this same type of illustrations of Pictures on Exhibition, this type of display of paintings must have been very popular at one time. It's clear that the artist has come full circle and now is regarded as noble, or would you say not?

I wonder when they stopped displaying paintings like this? If you've been to Sir John Sloanes Museum in London you'd see a kinship with this kind of display, he was the Cabinet incarnate.

It's interesting, also, to compare the gallery featured in the illustration of The Picture Gallery of Cornelius van der Geest, with what you see NOW in museum galleries, isn't it? Paintings now are hung …how? Arranged how? With an eye to setting them off? Is there any attempt to contrast them with the others in the room or not? I kind of like the old way, but of course when they're at the ceiling you can't get eyeball to eyeball.

(Interesting article in this month's new Smithsonian …the one with the hippo on the cover… about the Freer collection and how the Smithsonian came to collect it, if you get a chance to read it, quite small). Took the intervention of a President, Freer offered it only on condition it should not be changed, lent, or augmented. It's quite interesting. Only the area of Japanese prints I think was allowed, today it's 3 times its former size

Also I do need to quickly mention a new discussion going up on art in America, showing on PBS this very night: see Imagining America: Icons of 20th-Century American Art

That ought to be very interesting!

The thing I find most interesting about art is its inclusiveness. It does not exclude but rather includes and you find yourself interested in all KINDS of art that you never thought about before.

What are YOUR impressions of these 7 pages, which we have just begun discussing? Lots of classical references, Latin, etc., splashed about. This MAY be an indication of the swing back to classical themes which swept Europe...I'm not sure exactly when it was, when WAS the Renaissance? Did it come at the same time to Belgium and Antwerp that it did Continental Europe? I see a mention of Cicero's villa, etc. I don't know much about landscape architecture but those gardens at Wapper look more…. French or Italianate to me than they do Dutch, tho I'm not sure I would recognize a Dutch garden either? Do any of you know the difference? I used to know because here in America at Longwood Gardens, they have gardens laid out in this or that style: Italianate, French, English, but have forgotten. One has very few flowers, is formal with lots of fountains, etc.

I'll try to find another photo of the way Rembrandt's House displays paintings.

I kind of like the way the paintings are displayed on page 167, tho. I have one on the floor myself, (however I don't recommend it for chalk work, the chalk tends to powder off with the vibrations). Oh heck: In Edit: material deleted. I've already once here talked about Roman painting, jeepers, sorry. I forget sometimes who I have told and who not, but it's amazing to me, so wanted to shout it from the rooftops (apparently I did, on November 30. ahahaha)

Where and in what position do we find our artists socially at the close of page 171, would you say, with Rubens and his grand house and can you summarize what has caused this, for those of us who are drowning in details and going off on tangents about bacon and rasher brick work and gallery hangings and gardens? hahahaha

Ginny ~ I was reading my new issue of Smithsonian mag just today and found it interesting. Also what looks like a fantastic trip....Legacy of Rembrandt 9 days, June 2-10, 2006.....yes !! The year 2006 marks Rembrandt van Rijn's four hundredth birthday, and the cultural centers of the Netherlands are ready to celebrate! Study an exclusive collection of Rembrandt etchings and drawings normally closed to the public. Now how do we get SeniorNet to help us get there ?

I also saw the TV show tonight on 20th Century American Artists.

I would imagine a Dutch garden has lots and lots of tulips I loved the German gardens.....lots of roses, statues and fountains, and formal gardens laid out like a huge carpet.

Emma

I'm still here, folks. Don't give up on me. The Holidays sort of take away from reading time. Got the inevitable recorded call from the county library, telling me three times in English and three times in Spanish that my Rembrandt book is overdue. You don't want to have these people mad at you; the overdue fine is 25 cents a day. Ran (actually drove) right down there and renewed it. I'm good through January!

I can sense Rembrandt over the horizon.

Rich

By the way. It's a little known fact that when Ginny's library calls, she's reminded three times in English and three times in Latin!

Rich

I wish

I wish everybody could read and write it, we'd have a real ball here, but the way our Latin students are going, it won't be long: some of the 200's can read Cicero, that's amazing to me and something I think we can all be proud of.

EmmaBarb, good for you, I saw Rembrandt's famous drawing he did on that page in the Smithsonian magazine, but never could see the tour itself, good work. Wow, his 400th birthday in 2006, are we au courant or what? Hefty price tag on that thing, but all the Smithsonian tours are, but they say they're the best. I would kill to do the one in Egypt, assuming they have quit shooting at the tourists hahaaa

Rich - - - we are able to renew our library books on the computer. The fine for late books is the same as yours - 25 cents a day - and the annual charge - 11 dollars a year ( used to be free! )

Emma - - - did you get my email about your Christmas card?

Ginny - - - while I thoroughly enjoyed Latin 101, I am not envious of my erstwhile friends "who are now reading Cicero" - I am just happy for them.

Everyone else who is reading 'Rembrandt's Eyes' - - - A HAPPY and PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR and may we soon, very soon, see a little more of Rembrandt.

Brian

Searched and searched the web and could find nothing on the brick-and masonry style called speklagen or bacon rasher. From the author's description, I visualize Rubens' home on the Wapper canal as being faced with red brick and white mortar in a non-ordered linear pattern so that from a distance it looked like bacon.(Strips of lean and fat.) It apparently was the current fashion in Italy at the time, and Antwerpians of the 17th century, suffering from Rome-envy, copied all the latest Italian fads.

Antwerp, at the time of Rubens, besides suffering from an inferiority complex re: Rome and Florence, seemed to be in an economic slump. Geographically, politically, and consequently, economically, Antwerp was out of the loop. Protestant Holland enjoyed the bounty of Baltic trade and the exploitation of the East and West Indies, while Antwerp was described by an English ambassador as "a great city and a great desert." The buildings were beautiful and well kept but few people were in the thoroughfares, little wares were in the shops and grass was growing in the streets. (paraphrasing).

Rubens was in danger of being perceived as a provincial painter; a big fish in a small pond.

Rich

Brian, Twenty five cents a day is outrageous! We don't yet have the annual fee, yet, but that will come. It's another form of taxation, and there has never been a tax that a politician doesn't like.

Hey, we have one of your Edmontonians (Is that a word?) down here in Arizona. Wayne Gretzky is head coach of the Arizona Coyotes hockey team. Come to think of it, I'm assuming that he originally came from Edmonton. Wayne sure made a place for himself in history during his career with the Edmonton Oilers.

Ginny, You're right, those Smithsonian tours are VERY expensive. Their price is often as much as twice what the other tour carriers charge for the same trip. I think part of their high cost is just paying for the prestigious name "Smithsonian." Also they have renown "experts" in various fields (archaeology, archecture, history etc.) come along. I don't think they do it for free.

As I type, my wife is drawing up a trip for us to Prague, Budapest and Vienna. I also would like to do the Egypt/Luxor trip, but car bombings and machine-gunned tourist busses cannot exactly be dismissed as "local flavor."

Rich

Brian - not yet but will look for it.

....mixed brick and masonry style known as "speklagen" (bacon rasher)....hmmmmm ...pitched roof and step-gables and faced in bacon-rasher brick with masonry edging....1692 - Rubens' house and garden in Antwerp. Trying to visualize the house Rubens wanted for his own home.
Brian from what you wrote it would look like strips of bacon from a distance.
While living with my step-father as a teenager, who was German, I remember him making "spek-kochend"(?sp)-- a bacon breakfast pastie-- he said it meant bacon cooking. I seem to recall the bacon being somewhat fatty and I didn't care much for it.
Emma

If the Antwerp bacon had a lot of fat, speklagen might look like my house, which is faces in light brick with streaks of red showing through. It is actually quite attractive, unlike the name, which I admit puts me off.

Perhaps it reminds me of the bacon I had in Israel. In that Jewish country, bacon was not widely available. But some Romanian immigrant friends of ours very excitedly invited us over one day for a special treat. They were so excited -- they had found bacon just like they had at home, and wanted to share it,

Well, The bacon was raw (there is no trichinosis there, so presumably that's safe) and all fat -- no lean at all. They cut me a big bricks-worth of this pure fat, and sat back happy to watch me enjoy it! I managed to get down a few mouthfuls, but I saw I would be sick if I ate any more. They were so disappointed.

Somehow, I've never cared for bacon since.

JoanK ~ whenever I order bacon in a resturant I must have it well done but not burnt. Yuk, if there is any fat uncooked I cannot eat it....know what you mean about making one sick. The all fat bacon reminds me of fatback which as you know is used for seasoning in many southern foods.

About Rubens' house....among his treasures was a mummy....why ?
That house in Antwerp was 120 feet long.....wow ! Has anyone here seen it for real ?
So many paintings he sold that he never laid a brush to. I would love to have some art historian actually research how many were painted totally by his students in which he only added his signature.
Emma

Ahhh, bacon. Bacon can be wonderful or terrible. When it's wonderful, there is nothing like it. Remember Julia Child expounding on the many uses of "lardons"- little pieces of bacon cooked until crisp on the bottom of a crusette (sp?), then you add the chicken, or veal, some onions, carrots, celery, red wine, cover and bake? The aroma draws people from miles around!

A BLT is nothing if the bacon isn't lean and crispy, and the tomato direct from the vine, still warm from the sun.

On the other hand, I recently learned that my favorite meal, corned beef and cabbage was not known in olde Ireland. Their St Patrick's dish was cabbage and boiled bacon. Boiled bacon! Yuck. Sounds like the stuff your Romanian friends thought you might like, Joan.

On Rubens, I did not get to the part, yet, about the mummy (looking forward to that), but I thought his house no longer stands. The book is a little vague on that, or my comprehension skills are not what they used to be.

How do we know which paintings Rubens executed and which were done by students? I think Rembrandt was guilty of the same thing.

Rich

A painting factory!! Didn't Andy Warhol do that too?

And that modern guy, what's his name that everybody loves his paintings? Sort of...romantic looking cottages, what IS his name? He's a million dollar industry.

Well tho, it has a precedent, think of Illuminated Manuscripts?

I wonder where the practice actually started? Shops for reproductions of art? I know the Romans copied Greek art, but am not sure of the shop thing?

Ginny, Is it Thomas Kincade?

Rich

YES! That's the one! He was on 60 Minutes, he has a regular factory and they all actually do paint but it's the same thing or something, did you all see that? He's VERY well off.

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/stores/art/kinkade/boston_celebration.htm

Brian

Everything is turning up "Thomas Kincade" these days. I recently saw a grandmother clock with one of his paintings reproduced on part of it....it was attractive if you like that sort of thing.

I had no idea what Prof. Schama was talking about ...."the personifications of S.P.Q.R." ?
SPQR was the "motto" and the official monogram of the Roman Republic, in the same way that "US" or "USA" represents the United States. SPQR stands for Senatus Populusque Romanus (in Latin) or Senate and People of Rome (in English). SPQR was inscribed on the base of the legion's eagle standards, like the regimental number for Napoleon's regiments, after the reforms of Marius [which created a professional military and did away with other legion symbols. SPQR seems to have been used in the Roman vexilla, though it was not used on flags in antiquity. (You probably already know this.)

? carnelian gems among Rubens's collections.....not familiar to me. Maybe I've seen these beads but never knew them to be called carnelians....apparently they come in all colours and shapes. All I can find in my google search is they're excavated in Africa and Australia. Maybe they're also called agates ? ? Ohhhh ahhhh I saw some blue carnelians that I just might ask my jewelry store to look for so I can see in person
Emma

I'm learning a lot from you folks. Had to look up "carnelians" on Google, because I had never heard of them before. Seems that they have some mystical powers attributed to them in the Buddist, and Islamic faiths. "New agers" have some interest in carnelians, as well.

Emma, thanks for the explanation of SPQR. I've always wondered what that represented as seen on Roman army banners. I bet all you Latin scholars knew what that meant, but you're dealing with a Latin illiterate, here. (Not that Ginny didn't do her best to change that.

)

I stand corrected on my statement that the Rubens house on the Wapper canal no longer stands. I read ahead one page (page 172) beyond where we were supposed to stop (blush), and discovered that, of all people, Hitler ordered it restored during the occupation in WWII. Wonder what Rubens would have thought about that quirky turn of events?

Rich

More than you'll ever want to know about carnelians in history:

Carnelian History with Pix

Carnelian Myths

Marvelle

Marvelle ~ thanks so much for the links, I particularly liked the one on Carnelian's role in history. Interesting that it said "Carnelian represents the Hebrew tribe of Reuben...." Also...."Hindu astrology names Carnelian as the secondary stone of Scorpios"....hmmm....I'm a Scorpio....wonder if the Topaz is found in the same mining locations.
Emma

The header to this discussion says p#171. We should be beyond p#171 shouldn't we?

Rich

OH!! I just noticed that, ALL this time I had thought we went thru the 7th, I was feeling SOOOO SOOO SMUGGGG!!!

I'd drop by and note the super conversations and say oh yes and so forth and see that 7 and say oh the 7th, sigh sigh!

OH horror, horroris, yes indeed, we're supposed to be up to page 178!~!!! WHERE am I getting the 7th of January? FAUGH!

Go right ahead!!!!

What are your thoughts on this new section! Heck we could do 14 pages to catch up if you all like, you to say?? I'll put up to page 178 and you all can tell me what!!

OK! I think it's right now, and I added the three pages on too which we lost from the 2nd till the 5th, so the floor is now open for your thoughts. I am having to put up tons o art for the Latin students and enjoying every bit, I may bring some of it here but it's not Dutch.

What ho, Rembrandters?

Ginny ~ I would love to see the Italian art you'll be posting for the Latin students. If not here, perhaps a link to the Latin discussion ? Or is it only visible if you're a registered Latin student ?
Emma

They are only for registered students and I'll bring them here starting tomorrow!

Good Sunday morning! Several things I found interesting here this bright day!

In answer to the questions on the art in the Latin classes, here are a bunch of different things.

It's just amazing how, once you begin to look at art and to read about it, how your own world opens up.

First off here (and also in the 1776 discussion, I bet our Joan K has it memorized) is the famous Et in Arcadia Ego:

I had just gotten, as you know, for Christmas a new book on the Louvre and have really enjoyed reading it. I was struck by a painting by the 16th century painter the French painter Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665), called Et in Arcadia Ego.

As you know if you read Brideshead Revisited or saw the movie, that is the first line! But I never understood what it MEANT and why it had reference to death. Now I do! Art rules art?

Arcadia: A region of ancient Greece in the central Peloponnesus. Its inhabitants, somewhat isolated from the rest of the world, proverbially lived a simple, pastoral life. Any region offering rural simplicity and contentment. The term Arcadia is used to refer to an imaginary and paradisal place…

Parallel to the literary vogue of pastoral there existed in this period a rich pictorial tradition, paintings and prints representing shepherds and shepherdesses in a bucolic or idyllic setting of forests and hills. In the seventeenth century, the French painter Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665) used this pictorial tradition to paint one of his most famous canvasses, known as "The Arcadian shepherds" or as "ET IN ARCADIA EGO" (1647). This painting represents four Arcadians, in a meditative and melancholy mood, symmetrically arranged on either side of a tomb. One of the shepherds kneels on the ground and reads the inscription on the tomb: ET IN ARCADIA EGO, which can be translated either as "And I [= death] too (am) in Arcadia" or as "I [= the person in the tomb] also used to live in Arcadia." The second shepherd seems to discuss the inscription with a lovely girl standing near him. The third shepherd stands pensively aside. From Poussin's painting, Arcadia now takes on the tinges of a melancholic contemplation about death itself, about the fact that our happiness in this world is very transitory and evanescent. Even when we feel that we have discovered a place where peace and gentle joy reign, we must remember that it will end, and that all will vanish.

Then the 101's are reading about Aeneas. There are tons of art on Aeneas:

Here is an unknown artist with the funeral games of Anchises, Aeneas' father:

And here we have the very famous

Aeneas and the Sibyl by the 16th century artist Antoine Caron, from the Louvre. Augustus is pictured kneeling before the Sibyl, who points to a vision of the future in the sky.

Here is Aeneas and Evander, the original King of the Arcadians we spoke of earlier, by Paolo da Cortona.

Aeneas and the Sibyl went into the Underworld to find his father and they met, as you can see, the Ferryman, Charon

This is Van Dyke but I can't seem to find it in color.

Again here is another, unnamed portryal of Charon and the dead person with a coin under her tongue, he required payment to ferry the souls across, and so when people died, they'd put a coin under the tongue, so the deceased would have the fare!

There are a lot of legends, all very interesting and different about Charon if you'd like to look him up.

And here from a Latin student is Janus, it's quite interesting:

Two Faced Janus in Sculpture

From Wikipedia:

Janus was frequently used to symbolize change and transitions such as the progression of past to future, of one condition to another, of one vision to another, and of one universe to another. Hence, Janus was worshipped at the beginnings of the harvest and planting times, as well as marriages, births and other beginnings. He was representative of the middle ground between barbarity and civilization, rural country and urban cities, and youth and adulthood.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg, but on to our text.

Now I'd like to ask you all something about our progress here? We're nearing page 200. It's a super book. But I am wondering if page 200, our 200th day might be a good time to end what I think has been a fun and enlightening discussion as the participation has been somewhat slack (my own in particular! mea culpa!) It's my fault, I know as I don't have the time to put to it properly or as we'd normally do, but I personally have gotten a lot out of it and wonder if you feel our 200th day might be our last? OR do you think we're just getting to the good bits now and would like to continue?!?

Whatever we decide collectively to do, NO ONE could have done a better job than you have so far. Each and every time we tried to discuss a book on ART itself in our last 10 years here in the Books we have failed. You have not failed, in fact you have MADE this discussion and you are much appreciated. I have very much enjoyed it.

What are your thoughts on its continuance? More in a moment on the hanging of paintings in that time period and our current text:

WOWZA~~ But now WOWZA!! IS this or is this not a section? I thought I was losing it for a minute as we were talking about an anniversary of Rubens' death and I thought HUH? But I see now, good parallels Schama makes but boy this is a wonderful section.

His prose is more florid than the paintings!

So Rubens just like Sir John Sloan after him, had his own Roman museum and garden, I loved this section, just loved it, have to go back.

I don't have time to find the book I have on the Sloane Museum but are you all familiar with it? It's unreal and it almost…almost seems to me as if Schama is describing IT, if you've been there?

How does he know what was displayed how and where, did you pick that up?

The quotes of Juvenal over the door, etc?

29 chests of Roman antiquities! If you saw that PBS series on Myths and Legends you saw some aristocratic Britisher with a ton of antiquities in his potting shed!! Potting shed!!

Perseus! I have put up the Perseus paintings (not the fresco, obviously) before last year in the Latin, will have to go look, there are tons of them, too. It would appear that it's clear that many artists were captivated by the old Roman and Greek myths.

Wasn't it interesting that Hercules became Rubens' sort of inspiration? With all his flaws.

And what of the contrasts in the two paintings in this section. War and Peace? What are your thoughts on them??

Did you catch the size of that studio? 46 by 34 feet and 30 feet high? Do you think this is where the artists of today get their loft inspirations?

I hate to say this but Rembrandt's House as visited sounds just exactly like this.

And speaking of parallels, we were right on with our current art factories, huh? Although I am not sure that there are any erstwhile Van Dykes paining in the factories of "hand painted" art today, (or are there?)

I remember reading in the new biography of the former CEO of Disney, Michael Eisner, that artists are often or felt they were, given short shrift in the company. Roy Disney took over that old branch of cell painting, they call them "Imagineers," now. Of course now I guess the old hand done cells are gone and computers have taken over that as well (or is that so?)

Here is the cover of the new book on the Louvre available at Barnes and Noble for $19 by Alexandra Bonfante-Warren, and a very good buy. It's called View of the Grand Gallerie of the Louvre in 1796 by Robert Hubert and shows how paintings are hung as they are described in our text.

In the book it says, in reference to yet another painting of the same thing, that apparently the paintings were chosen for display carefully, and the smaller ones were hung at eye level while the larger ones were slanted so as to be viewed more easily. Saint-Aubin's view shows total packed inch to inch paintings in the Louvre.]

Oh I have so MUCH to say about this section, but hist? What's this? "And to tell the truth it would have been hard for me to exchange the priceless treasure of liberty for the embraces of an old woman." (page 181).

Hello? Excuse me?

What are your thoughts on anything up to page 183? Hello?

I'm going to read this section over again.

hahaha

Ginny, You've given us so much to think about all at once. I, for one want to continue. I felt that we were in a doldrums over the holidays, and the page targets were not moving ahead. I want to go on. I have gotten a few pages behind, and I will be away most of today, but I expect to post later in the day on the reading.

Don't let us force you to maintain the discussion if your other responsibilities make it impossible. Only you can make that decision.

Being the stubborn person that I can be, I would like to make this discussion THE FIRST of its kind to complete its objective.

I'm only speaking for myself, of course, and others,participants, and lurkers (I hate that word!), may feel otherwise.

Rich

I, too, would like to continue. We're just about to get back to Rembrandt. Even if we don't have many posts, it makes us read the book more carefully.

I know our GINNY is swamped. Let's decide she doesn't have to post every day and it's OK if days go by without a post.

On Arcadia: those of you who read the Iliad, do you think that idea goes back to Homer? The pastoral scene he described on Achilles shield?

The painting Arcadia, by Poussin, which Ginny posted.... I kept staring at it. I had seen that painting before, in a very different context. Then It hit me when you sent me back to it, Joan.

There was a book which I read many years ago, entitled "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." Dan Brown the author of "The Da Vinci Code" cites "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," often, as much of the inspiration for his book.

The author of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" uses a number of symbols and messages that he finds in the painting "Arcadia," plus some other information he uncovers in a small village in southern France to develop the theory that Christ's family (and perhaps, even Christ himself, after a faked death) left the Middle East and settled in Europe continuing the bloodline of Christ into the modern world. (The "I" in the inscription on the tomb was intended to be Christ, as Poussin contrived to communicate to the secret society:- "The Priory of Sion" (sp?))

Much of "The Da Vinci Code" is based on theories developed in "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," and much of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is based on symbolism that the author discovered in Poussin's "Arcadia."

I hope I'm not too confusing.

Rich

Nicolas Poussin painted two works on the theme of the shepherds in Arcadia.

The first, which Ginny has posted for us, can be seen, read about and enlarged, here
(1) http://www.wga.hu/support/list/index_p.html >>> POUSSIN >>> Et in Arcadia Ego

- - - and the second, or "gentler" one is in the posession of the Duke of Devonshire, at his home, Chatsworth, Derbyshire.
(2) http://www.abcgallery.com/P/poussin/poussin4.html The Shepherds of Arcadia

And, yet again, I add my voice to those who would like to continue our book.

Brian

Ginny ~ thank you for those fine images you posted -- I find it all very interesting.
I shall continue to read Prof. Schama's book no matter what. I have had post-holiday sads and my brain was taking a break but now I think I'm back.

Those Disney hand painted cells are worth a fortune today.....they're probably all in the hands of collectors.

Brian - thanks so much for the links you posted on Nicolas Poussin.
Emma

Although I rarely post, I enjoy this discussion immensely. I hope it continues to the end of the book

Hi Sue. Thanks for letting us know you are there.

Brian, Thanks for the two Poussin images.

My last input on the "Arcadia" issue, then it's back to Rubens for me.

http://www.answers.com/topic/holy-blood-holy-grail

Rich

Well that appears to be a resounding majority yes!!!

I got up thinking this morning how much I am enjoying this discussion and the comments, and also that the discussion is unique, that is there's not another one like it, and so since I personally would never have gotten this far in the book alone, and since this has not been done before successfully, and since I enjoy looking in here and reading your comments, I say full speed ahead!! Thank you for responding, feedback is always important.

I like the relaxed atmosphere of this discussion, and the lack of pressure, but most of all I like what I'm learning from each of you, and the book, and the interesting twists and turns the discussion takes (DaVinci Code!) and the art brought here, the insights to art, and all sorts of other things, and it's a super and steady group as well, and so I say thank you for your thoughts, all of you, ONWARD!

I think I would miss it and you. I got up "missing" it and it wasn't gone! hahahaa

Thanks Ginny. I know I would not have gotten this far in the book without this discussion. I think we should finish in the fall of 2007.

Ginny, I'm not a regular participant in the discussion but found a way to occasionally sit-in.

Reading a page a day and then discussing it that day doesn't work for me as Schama starts a thought, the page ends, while the thought continues onto the next page. I'm left hanging plus I forget what was written on the previous page. I guess my memory just isn't that good! Since I need to read complete thoughts I just read a small section, complete in itself, and wait a few days while everyone discusses the individual pages. By then of course it's generally too late for me to add my two-bits in but I do have the pleasure of discovering everyone's reactions to the book as well as the lovely pictures you post.

Anyway, maybe there are others like me (poor memory) who are lurking who may see in this post a way they can join in from time to time.

For instance, Schama starts writing about Rembrandt on page 196 so I read the small section 196-208 (the complete chapter is 196-241). Hope this may draw others into the discussion.

Marvelle

Thank you marvelle, you can always read ahead. I find when the thought ends on the page we'll take the next one too, of course as you say if it's an entire section or something connected (as it often is), then we just have to read on, that's ok, jump in when you can, always glad to see you!

Suec, I'm so glad you're still there!!!

The description of Rubens' acquisitions of paintings, statuary, and countless miscellaneous other objects (even a mummy) reminds me of William Randolph Hearst. His sprawling home in San Simeon is bulging with similar art and artifacts. Hearst is long dead, but I understand that in addition to the house, there are at least two warehouses dedicated to the storage of his acquisitions.

Professor Schama in describing Rubens' yard used the phrase "There were tulips in beds and oranges in tubs." Then he caught himself writing in everyday English, so in the very next phrase he corrected his style and referred to the oranges and tulips as "golden apples of the Hesperides sharing space with the Turkish flower made Netherlandish." Oranges and tulips would have done it for me.

Strange how he dwells on some things and dismisses others as unimportant. The description of his home on the Wapper Canal goes on for pages, then in one almost dismissive sentence the author lets us know that "Rubens successively negotiated a treaty of peace between England and Spain in 1629-30."

He negotiated a treaty of peace between England and Spain!

Paragraph after paragraph counting the number of dimples on Rubens' painted cherubs, and one throw-away sentence on this surprising and unexpected demonstration of brilliant international political and diplomatic skills. Strange!

Rich

Oh how I'd love to sit down face-to-face with Prof. Schama and interview him about this book. The first thing I would ask him would be "did he write this book in its entirety or did he have some staffers inserting items here and there that they researched without benefit of his questioning" ?

RICH: I love it!! What is a treaty between England and Spain compared to "golden apples"?

Those paintings showing rooms with hundreds of paintings covering every inch of wall space make my mind freeze over!! How could you possibly concentrate on one of them? (But I have the same trouble in the supermarket, with all those packages shouting "buy me, buy me!")

My sister has a jigsaw puzzle with one of those paintings on it. It's so big, she had trouble finding a table big enough to hold it, and it has thousands of pieces. It is so detailed, you have to study each painting to work it.

YEAH, GINNY. I knew you could carry on. You don'tr have to do any work, just check in once in a while.

I had a "Where's Waldo" moment when reading about and looking at "Peace and War" on page 180. There's a lot going on in the painting, and Schama describes it well, but for the life of me, I couldn't find the leopard playing kitten-like with a vine.

After putting the book down and going back to it later, the leopard became visible to me. That is a busy painting with lots of Greek and Roman mythology represented on one canvas. (Or are they all just Greek or just Roman gods?) Wish I knew my mythology better.

Rich

I admit, my eyes just glaze over when I look at such a busy painting. I'll be glad to get back to Renbrandt.

James C. Groves....an attempt at a copy of Rembrandt's self portrait.

Click here please for a very very good website on the process of oil paintings by Tad Spurgeon. The "Old Masters" used the technique of making an underpainting and then layering in color. Some materials are different but the process is an excellent illustration....dark, medium and light values....transparent warm to opaque cool tones...and finally thick highlights. This artist is new to me but I'm impressed with his artistic talent. He was born in America in 1955.
Emma

That was fascinating. thanks.

Emma,

From your last post,I can see that you are very interested in technique. It's not an area that I know anything about, but I think I am learning as we all contribute to the discussion. The James Grove story made several references to "impasto" and I had no trouble with the word because Emma Barb explained to me what it meant in an earlier posting.

Now to go back and read the Ted Spurgeon piece...

Rich

Those two postings on the workings of James Grove and Ted Spurgeon have been a shot in the arm
for those of us who are trying to learn "about Painting" and particularly "about Rembrandt".

Now, I will be able to enjoy the chase for such knowledge even more, and may be able to read Schama's
rambling account with equanimity. There is a great deal for us to absorb, and I am ready!

I have had much benefit from the Time Life Library of Art books - - - one volume on "The World of Rubens" and another on "The World of Rembrandt".
This is an excellent series of books for the would-be learner on the general subject of "Art", and a must for those (like me) who have been heard to say - - - "I don't know a lot about art, but I know what I like."

Brian

Emma, those two links are fascinating. Loved the step-by-step attempt at recreating Rembrandt's portrait. (I thought it was a darn good attempt too.) Thanks so much.

Marvelle

I'm glad you all liked those last two links...I was happy when I found them.

Rich - I had to search for that leopard playing with the vine too. Too bad we cannot see the painting in its full size....the book images are of poor quality (IMHO).

Brian - I have a set of the Time-Life Library of Art (dated 1968) but no Rubens or Rembrandt. Maybe they didn't have them at the time ?
Emma

Emma - - - I got my collection of these books about 20 years ago, and it was part of a 1977 reprint,
and included 26 major international painters, a volume on Contemporary American artists, and a volume
entitled "Seven Centuries of Art" which contains the index for all the other volumes.

It is an excellent resource, and I love it.

Brian

I found another Rubens! Can't wait to bring it in but storms are crashing around my fingers as I type and having lost one modem to an electrical surge I fear I must awa as they say in Scotland). (Or do they, Brian? Hahaha)

I think they do!

At any rate what a super discussion you've made of it, and what wonderful resources you've brought here. I also agree Marvelle, and Everybody, that was fabulous, EmmaBarb!

And Brian as well, another great resource, many thanks! I don't have that Time Life Library of Art, they had other books in series tho. I wonder if it's too late to get the art series used? I have missed a great deal I think and am enjoying learning about it this way. It's funny but it seems to extend to a lot of other venues, too, so one thing learned seems to spread out to other things. Really opens your eyes.

Love it!

Rich, so sharp, my eyes, like Joan K's (thank you, Joan!) and yours about the War and Peace had glazed over with the prose but your noticing the Rubens peace accomplishment thrown away was electric! I actually had to get my book back out and double check! Right you are!

So that does make you wonder about … you can't say well the treaty was not germane to the subject matter so that's why he gave it short shrift. (heck half the book is not germane?) So it makes you wonder. I agree also EmmaBarb, it would be good to ask him who added what, or for that matter WHY on a lot of this, but I really think that this is his style, or do we?

That bit about the mummy made me sit up, (oh and good reference, Rich to the Hearst "Castle" and museum, too, (is that the one you meant?) I had forgotten that one, I must find my book on the Sir John Sloan museum tho because I truly believe Shama is really describing IT, I mean he had the inventory but how it must have LOOKED? You need look no further: you've been to the Sloane if you read the description of Rubens galleries and garden in this book!

That mummy reminds me of both the Funeral Home, where is it in Alabama or somewhere which keeps the....mummy? Embalmed person of a person who nobody would pay for the funeral in its offices. Schame is growing on me, I'm going off on interesting tangents, too!

They do say that at one time the market in Egyptian Antiquities was so high and the black market so bad that mummified cats (the Egyptians apparently mummified many of their cats to take with them in the afterworld) were a dime a dozen. Can you imagine? They say everybody had one. I didn't!!

Ok today, Friday the 13th we move to our new section, what thoughts do you all have until I can return here? You to begin!!

Installed on my computer I have the Merriam-Webster Dictionary menu bar.
Whenever I come across a word I have not met before in an article on my screen,
such as the one that Emma linked to by James C. Groves on copying a Rembrandt portrait,
I highlight the word - in this case "grisaille" - and click on the M-W menu bar at the top of my screen.

Here I learned that the word was defined as "a decoration in tones of a single color and especially
gray designed to produce a three dimensional effect". Further down the annotation I was invited
to click on "Top 10 Search Results for grisaille" - - - following this trail kept me busy for the rest of the day.

The Merriam-Webster menu bar is simple to install, free, and I find it indispensible.
Oops ! That should be "indispensable" - - - It also works as a spell-checker.

Brian

OH my goodness, we've finished Part II!!

I can't believe my eyes! I have adjusted the heading to include the 1/3 page 191 and methinks I see Rembrandt at last creeping o'er the hills!

But what a chapter THIS is?

Or is it just me?

This was stunning.

Several different opinions are needed here.

First off, whose side are YOU on? Rubens's or Vorsterman's? Is Schama being quite straightforward with us here? First of all Rubens is incensed, how DARE Vosterman want credit. Er… but wait, it seems he'd like money for his work, too and a byline of acknowledgment. The judges turn Rubens's down and Van Dyke hires this Vorsterman later. I have a feeling there is more to this story than we're being told, whose side are YOU on?

But that business about what was thought to be the most important really hit me hard.

What IS the most important: the invention or the practical application of it?

If I think up a good idea and you take it and run with it, should the fame all be yours? Should it all be mine? Was fame all Vorsterman was after?

Fascinating little chapter.

And why introduce Baudius at all? Why trash him, all I can see he did was die and comment on the Prometheus?

And we can see Rubens setting up his own shop where craftsmen might ply their specialties, that was done with illuminated manuscripts when they were still done by hand, so that was not new and seems very practical, to me.

Does anybody know where we can find an illustration of the Cuique suum stadium plaque with the poet and the painter together? I have never heard of it.

Wouldn't it take a lot of skill, EmmaBarb will know, to make an engraving of something or is it merely tracing with a needle? In other words, does the engraver who is engraving a work of art himself worthy of praise or not?

Are we about a THIRD of the way thru this book? I can't believe my eyes!

And now we are approaching Rembrandt at last, and the drawing on Part Three is what hangs over his house today, so I'll bring it and the Rubens's Caesar tomorrow!

What do you THINK about these few pages, I thought they were electric!

Brian, I love that thing but my new computer will NOT allow me to install it, says something about security risk, do you know anything about that? I miss it!

I am assuming that your new computer has WindowsXP as its operating system.
While I believe XP has many new bells and whistles, it steadfastly refuses to work many
programs that we have learned to love. It is in the cause of "built-in obsolescence".

I am still running WindowsME, which puts me in the category of the dinosaurs.
But then, I use MSWorks instead of MSWord (where the same piece of writing takes
double or triple the amount of space).

The trouble with "Progress" is that the slower traveller tends to get left behind on the road,
and may even be left to die.

Getting back to your question - - - Menu Bars, as a generalization, may present a security threat.
This is particularly true of Yahoo and Google etc. (don't quote me) as they are interested in promoting
paid advertising and may have tracking devices to see where your interests lie.

I believe that you can override the security issue with Merriam-Webster menu bar even if you
are running WindowsXP - do you have access to a local computer guru?

Brian

No but I'll take a chance, it never killed my old computer (actually something did, tho) and I have new spy ware on mine and you're ok so we'll see wnat we'll see, cross your fingers, I can't get RID of google on the tool bar.

Good luck !!

I won't use Google. I use Scroogle - - - a scraped version of Google which does not invade my privacy. Perhaps you should use that too.

Brian

No it absolutely refuses to load it, it says something about Active X and the author of the... something not being secure.

Ok I'm on a roll today, here is Julius Caesar (100-44BC) as seen by Rubens

(1577-1640). Ullman Henry 2003 says that "Rubens has followed the tradition that Caesar's vanity made him constantly wear his victory crown to conceal his thinning hair."

Here is Caesar in an earlier marble:

When you consider they painted in the eyes and hair on these marbles he must have really looked alive!

And here is our man at last, peeking out at us on the title page of Part III and from the sign hanging in front of his house

Brian, I'm going to have to research this "Scroogle." Sounds like something I should be using. Never heard of it before. Come to think of it, when it comes to computers, there's a lot that I never heard of.

Ginny, That Rubens painting of Julius Caesar makes him look very real. The expression on Caesar's face- It's an expression that says to me that someone is relating information to him. He's listening with great attention, and at any moment he is going to break into a smile or into a rage at the speaker. It could go either way.

Why do so many of these Dutchman have Latin/Roman sounding names? Goltzius, Grotius, Paulus Pontius, Lipsius, etc. Were they legitimate Latin family names, or an affectation.

I'm impressed by Rubens' negotiation and business skills. He set up an international division of his business and actually drew up licenses to protect his work product in other countries. This was in the early 1600's. No pilgrims had yet set foot on Plymouth Rock. (An event in time that many Americans believe to be the dawn of civilization.)

Painters are supposed to be "flaky," but creative, right-brainers who are manipulated and exploited by the more practical left-brainers in this world. Rubens seems to be brilliantly creative and entrepreneurial at the same time.

Rich

THAT'S where that marble of Caesar came from. Dick bought Paul Newman's caesar dressing. Most of his dressings have Newman's picture on them, so when I saw that marble on the bottle, I thought it was Paul Newman dressed up as Caesar. Sorry, Paul (Julius can take care of himself).

I agree with Rich's last paragraph. Reubens combined his great talent with a pratical business approach. No starving artist was PPR. More power to him!

For a different history, the proposal for "Founding Mothers" has just gone up. I will be helping Marni in March lead the discussion of this book of stories about the women who influenced our founding fathers.

FOUNDING MOTHERS

Brian - I too like Merriam-Webster but don't have a menu bar ? I'm not concerned with spell checker....I think it adds to the charm of the poster

Ginny ~ Thanks so much for Julius Caesar as seen by Rubens. I've not seen that before and was fascinated as to why he wore his victory crown all the time.
We've come a long way....whew! Prof. Schama has made me look up a lot about Rubens in his time, I hope we're getting back to Rembrandt finally.

I read with interest about Rubens Inc. and him setting up a painting mill of reproductions of his paintings. He was trying to protect his paintings from being copied by others. Did they already have copyrights in those days.....or was Simon Schama making this part up ?

I'm on Rubens's side (I still don't care for the Rubens's, think it should be Rubens').
Old master engravers and etchers....worthy of a bookmark.

Emma

I'm against Rubens, I think. It's hard to know without seeing what the engraver is presented with, but surely there must be more involved than routine copying. When we read about Audubon, his prints were always identified as to which engraver did them.

I think that Rubens's is correct. (Not Rubens') - - - for the correct spelling
of anything belonging to, or relating to, that gentleman.

My reference is Lynn Truss's book on "The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation" entitled : -
"Eats, Shoots & Leaves", where she quotes the ultimate authority : - "Fowler's Modern English Usage".

"Eats, Shoots & Leaves" is a most entertaining and informative book, and I strongly recommend it
to anyone that is interested in the correct use of punctuation. The annotation comes from the chapter
headed "The Tractable Apostrophe".

Brian

Brian: I read that bok when we discussed it here in Seniornet. It left me completely confused (and annoyed at its slightly anti-American tone).

Joan, You read the bok. That's your problem, you should have read the BOOK! The bok is full of typos and omitted vowels.

Rich

Brian, You're right. The "s" at the end of Rubens's name is not there to make him plural, it's part of his name. So it makes sense to show the possessive of his name as Rubens's.

They may not be available in Edmonton, but back East, the better delis served Ruben sandwiches. I don't know if they had anything to do with our friend in Antwerp, but they were good. (Shaved, lean corned beef, sauerkraut, swiss cheese, and thousand island dressing, in rye bread, and cooked on a grill 'til the cheese melted.)

Now, if you ate two of them, you would have eaten two Rubens.( And hit rock bottom on your diet.) And if you were to comment on a particularly savory feature of those two sandwiches, you would be referring to the Rubens' taste.

But we're talking about a great painter, not a sandwich, and the possessive of Rubens, the painter, should be Rubens's.

Excuse me, I have to go see if there is anything interesting left in the 'fridge.

Rich

- - - we call it a REUBEN sandwich !!

http://ask.yahoo.com/20000807.html

and it has quite a history - - - as you may see.

Brian

Brian, Yes, I stand corrected. Reuben! Yes! (Must be Joan's bok causing me to omit vowels.)

That is an interesting link on the history of the sandwich.

And who says we just talk about dusty old Flemish paintings?

Rich

Isn't that something? I'll pass on the tofu Rueben tho!

It's interesting how the author teases you at the end of this chapter (page 191). Although Schama is being a little cryptic, you know that Rembrandt is about to emerge, and the author is daring you to turn the page.

I am exercising remarkable self-control.

Rich

At first I was confused if the engraver who worked for Rubens was L.V. the Elder or L.V. the Younger.
A quick look at this link http://www.artoftheprint.com/artistpages/vorsterman_lucas_adrianusdebie.htm
made it clear to me. Our Lucas, in spite of going blind, lived to a ripe old age of 80 years.

When you enlarge the images of the engravings, and realize that they have been scratched on a copper
plate in reverse (mirror image) with a steel blade (burin), you have to admit that Vorsterman had a point
(if you'll pardon the pun!) in his contention with Rubens.

Brian

No restraint for me. I leaped into Rembrandt, only to get his grandfather. Oh, well.

It's about this point I really want some good maps! Both here and in 1776, a historian leaves us with only the fuzziest idea of the terrain.

Today's news had a story about a couple of Rembrandt "fakes" that turned out to be originals. Unfortunately, the story did not include photos of the paintings.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,,1689667,00.html

Rich

"The Crusader" (between 1659-1691), a sketch on canvas for a painting of The Knight with the Falcon (click here), and "Old Man in Profile" (circa 1661)click here....genuine Rembrandts. The smaller Old Man in Profile is a practice piece on oak wood.
Thanks Rich for the link and info.
Emma

Hey Emma,

Thanks for bringing the images to us.

Rich

Nice description by the author of ancient and 16th century Leiden. The comparison with Antwerp was interesting. For every bit Catholic Antwerp was, so was Leiden equally Protestant.

Some new nugget of knowledge for me was the explanation of the "van Rijn" part of Rembrandt van Rijn's name. The Dutch spelling of the region where Antwerp sits is Rijnland (Rhineland) and the river is the Rijn (Rhine), so van Rijn means from the region of the Rhine.

I agree with Joan, a map of the Antwerp- Leiden- Rijnland region in the 16th century would help us better visualize the geopolitics being described by Professor Schama.

Rich

I like the image of dismantling the windmills and putting them up again on the city walls. The city walls must have been very thick.

Can't find a good map. Here is a short history of Leiden. Aparantly, Rembrandt lived there in its most prosperous time.

SHORT HISTORY OF LEIDEN

I finally found a map showing Rijnland and Leiden. It is somewhat before our time, but is clear
enough to blow up really big without blurring all the names of towns and areas.

It can be accessed in a huge file that is easy to enlarge on your screen : -
http://www.rabbel.info/holland1250.html

Brian

Leave it to Brian to figure a way out of our problem.

Looking at that map, you can see how most of Holland was under water.

Rich

Rich - Glad you mentioned that as I wondered about that "van Rijn" you see with Rembrandt's name....in some places there is a comma after the Harmenszoon. Also wonder if RHL would be Rembrandt Harmenszoon van Leiden ? I've seen the RHL initials on many of his artworks. Maybe something to do with where he resided at the time of his painting....you think ?

Brian - thanks for the map of Holland.
Emma

- - - all mean approximately the same - - - "from" or "of " - - - (as a generalization)

You are right Rich & Emma , it is extremely likely that Rembrandt's "van Rijn" relates
to the region "from" which, or "of " which he came.

My own name, du Heaume , comes from Jersey in the Channel Islands (where the Jersey cows
originated) and is derived from and mediaeval word for "helmet". The German equivalent is "helm".
The original du Heaumes were battle helmet makers, or "heaumiers".

That's enough name calling! - - - " Retournons à nos moutons !" - - - Let's get back to the book.

Brian

Brian - how do I pronounce "du Heaume" please.

Wow! I've read 200 pages.

I agree, this is fascinating, it's almost like a living book and illustrated, too, love it.

So the Harmensz or whatever I keep seeing next to his name: Rembrandt Harmensz van Rijn was his entire name and the Harmensz his first name then? So people called him Harmie? I guess we'll find out soon. I was surprised to see that name next to just about all of the works I've looked up, the H...word, however it's spelled, loved the derivation of the Rijn, and I love the way they say that J, it's all over Amsterdam, and Holland, that j, as in Rijksmuseum, so now when I see it I know it's pronounced RIKES, love it, back anon

Brian, I posted your map of Holland in the "Story of Civilization" discussion. Hope you don't mind. That discussion currently, is about Holland in the 13th century. The timing of your map was perfect.

Rich

Emma - - - thanks for asking. We say "When are you DUE HOME ?", although in Jersey
they don't pronounce the "H" and the word comes out like the French for water.

Rich - - - glad to be of help. I will look at the discussion.

I am really looking forward to the next couple of hundred pages of the book.

Brian

Rembrandt's father was named Harmen Gerritszoon.....? interesting.... Rembrandt Harmenszoon...looks like he dropped the Gerrit...hmmmmm.
In 1620 the name "Rembrandus Hermanni Leydeusis" - RHL - was inscribed in the Leiden University register. I wonder how many names Rembrandt had and did he take it upon himself to change his own name....more hmmmmmmm......

I've been wondering about that for awhile. Remember how Schama said he used to invent persona for himself? I wonder if he went around reinventing himself?

I saw a PBS thing on Bob Dylan, and he went around reinventing his biography. Somehow I thouight of Rembrandt. Am I making this up?

!!! Interesting all these names, the one I saw is Harmesz or something, do you suppose the reason that the different museums list him differently with all these strange names is you can tell what period he was in or more accurately pinpoint the year or something by the name? Isn't THAT fascinating, thank you! I think I would take off Gerritzoon myself, actually. hahaaa

Lots of people change their names tho. I once read it is psychologically telling if you hate your given name, I can't imagine why. I used to hate mine, Virginia but now I think it's kind of pretty tho NOBODY calls me that.

I hated it so much that I renamed myself in the 4th grade I think it was, Zeta. How about THAT one for an improvement? It was for Zeta of the Jungle, a television series. Before Catherine Zeta Jones it was pretty much not common hahaaa.

In Sweden the child's last name is "Nel's son" which becomes Nelson or "Nel's daughter" which becomes Nelsdatter or Nelsdasughter.

So maybe Rembrandt's last name became "Harmenszoon" because he was he was Harmen's son (zoon).

Read the story below : -

http://www.cbc.ca./story/arts/national/2006/01/22/cellini-sculpture.html

Brian

Brian - what a beautiful sculpture. Thanks for the URL.

Oh, okay...Rembrandus Hermanni Leydensis is the latin version of his name.....thus RHL while he was studying Latin. Also RHL = Rembrandt the son of Herman of Leiden.
Emma

It is no longer showing on the page.

When I checked back at the source, I got the message : "Timed Out".

You can still see the salt cellar by clicking on the hypertext link.

Brian

That is a beautiful sculpture. Cellini was quite an artist, and, as I remember, quite a colorful character as well.

When I look at the sculpture, however, I can't get the image of a hot-tub (spa) out of my mind.

Rich

Brian, The photo of the sculpture is still on my screen.

Rich

- - - it's come back !

Thanks for noticing.

Brian

That's amazing, Brian, thank you for bringing it here. I've not had a problem seeing it, was there a problem with the site it came from?

But wasn't this an interesting section! The minute I read it I said, I must go find my windmill photos and of course I can't find them so these are from a friend who was on the same trip, but wasn't that fascinating about the moveable windmills? We think, in 2006, we know it all. We think we invented the wheel, we didn't.

It was the Romans, however (I'm surprised Schama did not go into that!) who invented the polder, according to one of my Belgian Latin students, and who originally pumped the water out.

Here are a couple of windmills from my next to last trip to Holland, they're all different:

Have you ever seen those incredible ROWS of windmills out west in the US? I saw some on top of mesas this past June and it was awe inspiring, I think windmills are wonderful. Those are for power, I think they are gorgeous but I know a lot of people hate them.

You can really see reading this small section how the miller became a man of substance, can't you?

You remember the mentions of the miniatures? Here's Madurodam, an entire miniature representation of the country:

It looks so real till you see the people!

Loved the bit on (page 199) Leiden's great fair, blizzards of bunting (loved that) "rowdy street farces, pipers, acrobats and barrels of ale:

Here's a street fair as part of a Medieval Parade in Bruges: the man in blue here is a juggler and he's thrown something very high into the air, there are acrobats, too. Everything he describes, they have.

Very colorful and filled with all kinds of pipers, fifes, long long horns about 7 feet long, all sorts of pipes and drums.

Jugglers, pipers, all kinds of stuff, in 2004!!

Thought you might enjoy seeing the flavor, these pageants ARE Medieval as well as religious:

Ginny ~ thanks for the windmill images....I've always been fond of the Dutch windmill. I have two miniature prints of windmills (have no idea who the artist was)....they're a bit small but I'll try to take a digital of them.
The Madurodam miniature in its entirety is fascinating, I've never seen anything like it with such detail in scale and architecture.

Emma

Ginny, Great photographs. The street fair was particularly colorful. Not hard to see the medievel aspect of the celebration, there may be even some pagan tradition in it.

Funny about the miller being the BMOC in those days. Today it's the rock stars and captains of the football teams that get the girls; at that time it was the millers.

Rich

Not having come across this particular description before, I looked it up in the Acronym Finder.

http://www.acronymfinder.com/

This time there were only two entries (instead of dozens!), and I assume you don't mean "Battle Management Operation Center".

I read it, that the miller was the "Big Cheese" - - - if you'll pardon the mixed metaphor.

Brian

Brian,

BMOC

It's a tired old expression meaning "Big Man On Campus." It used to be used in reference to the college man whom everybody else on campus looked up to, but later found general usage as a synonym for "Big cheese," as you correctly guessed.

Rich

BMOC = Big Man on Campus. That sure dates a person -- back to the 40's and 50's.

I think the miller was very popular because he made "beer"

which would also fit today on campus.

We need to express our sympathy this morning to Joan K , whose husband died unexpectedly on Monday. I am so sorry, Joan.

That's so sad, Joan. I'm sorry.

I am terribly sorry to hear that.

All our thoughts will be with you, Joan.

Brian

Oh JoanK, I'm so deeply sorry that your beloved husband passed away. Please accept my heartfelt sympathy to you and your family.
Emma

I've had these miniature windmill paintings for a long time, I believe they're prints. They look like something Jacob van Ruysdael might have done ?
Those silver windmill generators you see around the countryside are interesting.
Emma

Emma, I had never heard of van Ruysdael before so I "Googled" his name. He was a prolific painter! Just about every important museum and collection in the world has pieces by him.

Your prints look a lot like his work. Here's one that is almost identical to one of the miniatures you showed.

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Windmill-Near-Wigk-Posters_i376232_.htm

Rich

Rich - Jacob van Ruysdael was a prolific painter. I love his work. Thanks for the link.....does look like one of my miniatures....I think it's beautiful. I also love the windmill with the field of poppies by Monet.
Reading ahead in Rembrandt's Eyes, Prof. Schama lists 15 artists (maybe more) I've never heard of....but no information on them.
Emma

Emma, Is this the windmill with the field of flowers you mentioned?

http://frames.barewalls.com/frames/bw/61/61105,61202,61602/28/22/closeup/h61024c.jpg

Rich

OH I love that EmmaBarb and Rich, they are gorgeous!!! Thank you for bringing them here.

We're off on a new set of pages, can't wait, it's getting very interesting!

Rich - yes, that's one of Monet's paintings with a windmill and a field of poppies.
Emma

Just this morning noticed that we can now read up to p210, so I'm going to read onward. Imagine, over 200 pages into the book and the title character still has not appeared.

Rich

Took a walk around this discussion's page this morning and discovered the Art Gallery submitted by Joan and the Interview submitted by EmmaBarb. Not being in the discussion from the beginning, I was not aware they were there.

Joan, that Gallery is a great resource. I would have used it more if I knew it was available. Next time I'll pay better attention to the page headers.

EmmaBarb, I'm going to be busy the rest of this morning, but later today I'm going to check out the interview.

Rich

Listened to (and watched) some of the BBC interviews of Prof Schama provided by EmmaBarb. He doesn't look like how I expected him to look. It's funny how you conjure an image of an author in your mind when you're reading his words, and have no picture of him.

His tone of voice, cadence, and choice of words are exactly how I expected him to speak and sound. Very polished, very educated, very British.

Enjoyed the tape where the interviewer asks him who his heroes are. (Presumably in British history, since the interview was about his British history TV series.) His answer: #1 Queen Elizabeth the First, and #2 Winston Churchill. I enjoyed his Churchill answer and explanation since I am a big Churchill fan, myself.

Thanks for providing the interviews, Emma. They give another dimension to our reading. Wish I had found them sooner.

Rich

Rich - You're probably aware of the Sir Winston Churchill organization here in Washington D.C. Friends (Craig & Lorraine) from a number of years ago are very active in this group. He was guest speaker at a meeting I attended and did a really good impression of Churchill. I was searching google for some of his paintings but didn't find what I was looking for yet.

Emma

Churchill had a way with words. During the battle of Britain, his words inspired Britain and its allies during the dark days that Churchill predicted would be looked back upon as Britain's "finest hour."

One of my favorite stories about Churchill may not even be true, but it certainly sounds like Churchill, and I like to think that it is.

Late in his career he was sitting at a posh social event enjoying two of his favorite things, a cigar and a glass of good brandy. A stuffy old dowager who noticed his perhaps excessive brandy sipping, went over to Churchill and rudely stated:

"Sir Winston you are drunk!"

He calmly replied, "Madame I may be drunk, but you are ugly.

However, tomorrow I will be sober, and you, madam, will still be ugly."

Rich

When Ella and I went to England a couple of years ago we went out to where Churchill was born and lived, not Chartwell the other and it was unreal and quite full of his memory, I wish I could remember the name of it.

I'm late getting in here and will be right back but here are some things we've been seeing in the Latin and I thought you might also like them, this first is a Flemish Tapestry from 1510-1520 currently in the Victoria and Albert Museum:

The Triumph of Death or The Three Fates: Click to enlarge

The Three Fates are named here Clotho who spun the thread of life, Lachesis who measured it and Atropos who cut it.

Here are other representations of them as well:

Michelangelo's Three Fates:

An unknown (so far to us) rendition of them:

Be right back!

Very expressive faces in the Michelangelo piece.

Aren't they? I remember big beefy Rubenesque arms on one depiction but we can't find it. I always wonder which one was the most important.

This is an intresting set of pages, isn't it? It's sad really.

First they talk about grogram which I always thought was grosgrain and which WORD wants to make grosgrain and I never knew what it was.

Nor did I know that Indigo stank. I have always thought it romantic that the pioneers did Indigo for their clothes.

But this elongated and (to me) worthless long history of the religious wars is neither interesting nor to the point. All the "Gomarist, Remonstrant and Counter-Remonstrant" seemed to accomplish was a country now sadly also known for its lack of religious fervor and who can blame them? What a nightmare.

All he had to say was his conclusion in the first paragraph indentation on page 210, and that would have been more than enough.

What did you make of Rembrandt's sudden withdrawal from school and his joking about his age? I am not sure what to make of that? How is it we know of the years of other artist's births then and before him and not his?

To me the price of the whole book is worth the painting on page 208. I absolutely love that and must have a print. I love that. And it's in the Rijksmuseum and I never saw it, they were doing repairs and had most of it closed, looks like a trip back is in order. I love that.

It reminds me of one of my Mobile Meals customers, it's inspired.

Didn't what they said about Rembrandt's "natural inclinations" while in school remind you of Walt Disney? They did me.

And again here he is signing Rembrandus Hermanni Leydensis (RHL) to his paintings of 1620. We ought to keep track of all the names. That's sort of a Latinized name he might have used at University.

I'm going to go find a source for a print for that Old Woman Reading!

I was able to find several "Old Women" paintings by Rembrandt.
In many cases there is debate as to the subject of the portrait.
It is believed that he painted his mother on many occasions.

1. http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/specialseries/rembrandt2006/060110rem?view=Standard
Rembrandt's mother reading a book? Good link

2. http://www.abcgallery.com/R/rembrandt/rembrandt78.html
Large portrait of an old woman. Good quality.

3. http://shop.hermitagemuseum.org/en_US/images/products/m10563.jpg
Another old woman. Smaller image, fair quality.

4. http://www.rembrandtpainting.net/rmbrndt_1620-35/1620_35_images/prayer.jpg
Yet another old woman, this time at prayer.

Brian

Gosh those are good Brian! That second one particularly has a lot of heart tho while waiting for it to load the laughing clown brought the dog (and me) running across the room, what an obnoxious ad for such a wonderful site, that's a beautiful face on that, just beautiful.

His are SO dark, aren't they? I was reading last night about the ancient Romans paintings and frescoes. Those in black in the House of the Vetii were known to have shown like mirrors and they don't now. They were trying to figure out what might have been on them to make them shine as that was remarked on by several ancient writers. It's fascinating.

The reason indigo stank was due to the fermenting process in urine. Urine is still frequently used as a low cost, and safer chemical process but today there are alternatives.

Painters' Indigo

Indigo

Marvelle

Those were two excellent links on Indigo. I was particularly interested in : -

"A preindustrial process for dyeing with indigo, used in Europe, was to dissolve the indigo in stale urine. Urine reduces the water-insoluble indigo to a soluble substance known as indigo white or leucoindigo, which produces a yellow-green solution. Fabric dyed in the solution turns blue after the indigo white oxidizes and returns to indigo."

Brian

Reminds me of that song "Mood Indigo" Frank Sinatra used to sing.
You ain’t been blue; no, no, no.
You ain’t been blue,
Till you’ve had that mood indigo.
That feelin’ goes stealin’ down to my shoes
While I sit and sigh, go ’long blues.

Always get that mood indigo,
Since my baby said goodbye.
In the evenin’ when lights are low,
I’m so lonesome I could cry.

’cause there’s nobody who cares about me,
I’m just a soul who’s
Bluer than blue can be.
When I get that mood indigo,
I could lay me down and die.

I have just read a stirring account taken from Housden's book - "How Rembrandt reveals your beautiful, imperfecr self: Life Lessons from the Master", and can refer you to the opening few paragraphs, quoted in this link : -

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781400082292&view=excerpt

The rest of the article concludes with this paragraph : -

That essential humanity is what, more than anyone else before or since, he (Rembrandt) managed to communicate through art; and today we can read his life's work not just as an autobiography but as the universal, perennial story of everyman's journey from innocence to experience, from ignorance to wisdom. This is why his face can tell us as much about us as it can about him; if, like Rembrandt, we are willing to look ourselves in the eye and to accept whatever we see there.

Brian

Brian - Life lessons from the master" how interesting. Thanks for posting the link. Would like to put that book on my reading list.
Emma

Been away for a few days, but enjoyed catching up on the postings.

My positive-spin prize goes to EmmaBarb for taking us in one posting from a discussion of stale urine to the complete lyrics of "Mood Indigo" as sung by Frank Sinatra.

Interesting how Brian's quote from another Rembrandt book ends with a reference to Rembrandt and eyes, our title topic.

Rich

Well, it's back to the library, today, to renew "Rembrandt's Eyes." I think it's a several days overdue (not sure). At $.25 a day that can add up quickly. I have nine books checked out, and I don't know exactly know when they're due. They don't rubber stamp the little form on the back of the book, any more. When you check out a book they give you a slip of paper that looks like a supermarket receipt. I immediately lose that.

Probably a well calculated plot by the library to increase their revenue.

Rich

hahaha Rich, you sound like me, no guilt like the guilt of the overdue book!! hahahaa

As as you say, who knows when they are due, so you have the eternal burden of guilt. I really am enjoying everything you all bring here and the conversations, they are as good as the book!

Ginny- I love "an eternal burden of guilt" - so true. My library is on line and I think you can check when the books are due and even renew online [not that I ever do]. I, too, enjoy reading the reactions of other people - everyone sees things a little differently and it brings a lot to the table.

From the reading, it appears that Rembrandt, like Rubens, was a fairly well educated man. He did drop out of Leiden University, apparently to study art, but up to then, it seems, he got as good a classical education as his relatively well off miller father could provide.

Leiden, being strongly Calvanist, unlike the Catholic Antwerp of Rubens, discouraged the display of images in their churches, so Rembrandt's exposure to fine paintings had to be through private collections rather that the city's churches.

At the time of Rembrandt's youth, the politicians of the Netherlands seemed to spend more time on debating, argueing, and even killing over the issue of which religion was the "true Christianity" than they spent on their civic responsibilities. It's no wonder that the founders of the new country in America later rejected that waste of time and energy, and insisted on the clear separation of church and state.

Rich

Wow, did you see last weekend's issue of USA Today? I'm trying to get the link online, but it keeps timing out on me. Maybe one of you can. The whole page in the LIFE section, Destinations and Diversions is on, guess who? Rembrandt!

It's the cover story! BIG photo of our man in the circle outside his house, big photos of Amsterdam, news of "The city pulls out all the stops for his 400th birthday," great news of many traveling exhibits in this country. It says the Rijksmuseum will have 5 Rembrandt shows before the end of the year, and on February 24 they will unveil a new exhibit of his own works from museums all over the world! 13 of the rarest of his works will appear. There's even a musical!

And in many other countries, too:

Dayton Ohio: Rembrandt and the Golden Age: Masterpieces from the Rijksmuseum, October 7-January 7, 2007 (we'll probably be on page 300 then? Hahaha)

Then that exhibit goes to Phoenix and then Portland Oregon.

Washington, DC: the National Gallery of Art plans Stokes of Genius: Rembrandt's Prints and Drawings, November 19-March 18, 2007

And much much more, huge huge article. Where to go what to do and a big photo of his house and the Night Watch.

Rembrandt is HOT!

Ginny ~ I missed that....in USA Today. Thanks, I'm going to see if I can pull it up online.
Emma
Edit: USATODAY - Amsterdam fetes the artist Rembrandt....can you imagine looking at a Rembrandt more than 14-feet tall.

Emma, Thanks for bringing us the article referenced by Ginny. It seems this will be a big deal, celebrating Rembrandt's 400th. I'll have to wait a whole year before the exhibit comes to Phoenix.-Something to look forward to I guess. Just think how I'll impress all the people in the tour group with my knowledge of Rembrandt after having finished this book discussion.

The photo of Amsterdam in the story reminded me of something. If any of you have been to the little island of Curacau you'll know what I mean. That Dutch island in the Caribbean has architecture just like what is shown in the picture. The main city on the island (Orangestatt, I think, but not sure) could have been the model for that photo.

Rich

Looked it up. The Amsterdam-like city in Curacau is Willemstad. I wasn't even close!

Rich

Thank you, EmmaBarb for that link and Rich for that correlation. I absolutely love that architecture. Speaking of that architecture, when you fly KLM to Amsterdam, which I just did last year, they come around with these little tiny china houses (I had flown free first class (I don't know if they do this in the whole plane) on frequent miles). I had never flown KLM before, and said no, no thank you, I did not realize what it WAS.

What it IS is a gift! They are collectable. The guy sitting next to me said oh (he was from some government agency) my boss said be sure to get him the latest one. So when I finally realized it was not for sale, I did take one (I guess the stewardess thinks I'm a nut case but we had VERY bad weather, it was VERY rough and I did not get a nanosecond's sleep. It's the worst I have ever (and hope to ever) experience. But it's the sweetest little thing I ever saw and a perfect souvenir.

It's Blue Delft about 3 inches tall, very solid with a cute round top chimney on the back and about 2 inches wide. It's charming and solid, quite heavy, numbered, the series is numbered. Every little brick on the sides is outlined as well as the sweet roof, it's really nice. I keep it on my desk next to my marble arch of Trajan.

That's an airline that knows what they're doing! hahahaa

A little Dutch house next to the Arch of Trajan. There's an eclectic pair! Hang onto that little Dutch house, Ginny. Things that used to be found on the bottom of corn flakes or Wheaties boxes are now being offered on e-bay for thousands of $.

From the reading, I find it interesting how the people of Leiden used art as a low form of interior decoration like, as Sharma says, "ceramic tiles." They even used paintings as a way to cover "bare and damp plaster walls."

We forget how little visual stimulis they had in those days compared to now, with our video's, television, Internet access, multiplex theatres, magazines, billboards, junk mail, etc. Maybe that's why almost every family owned lots of paintings then. (A plumber had 26 paintings in his estate when he died, a hosiery dyer had 64.)

I found an interesting parallel to a current trend in Sharma's reference to book stores also offering paintings as well as their usual inventory of books. Have you noticed that the major retail book store chains are playing down their offering of books and increasing the floor space allocated for CD's and videos?

You can't get away from visual and audio stimulis, anymore. One of the upsides of visiting the doctor's office is it once gave you a chance to bring a book and get caught up on some quiet reading. No more! There's a television blasting away in every waiting room.

Rich

You do well to keep Trajan next to your Delft House from KLM.

They would make a great pair, each having "a cute round top chimney" !!!

Brian

Rich - how about that

We'll all be able to impress our artist friends by then (big smile). Oh but how I would love to be there in Amsterdam during that celebration.

Ginny ~ the little china house is lovely. I have a couple small Blue Delft carafes (?) that came from the ship The Holland something or other my mother gave me many years ago (they had brandy or rum in them but I put a small hole in the cork and dumped it down the sink).
Emma

The reference in our book to some of Rembrandt's earlier work such of his "The Sense of Sight" (The Spectacles Seller) as one of a series of "earthy little genre products with a strong Flemish accent, the kind of thing that one might have found in a tavern as much as in a parlor", reminds me of a much more contemporary illustrator who made a series of earthy little genre products with a strong American accent.

This artist's work might have been found on a magazine cover, or calendar, as much as in a museum.

http://www.rockwellprints.com/prints/newglasses.htm

Rich

Got a photo of Willemstad, Curacau.

http://z.about.com/d/travelwithkids/1/0/n/a/canalstreet_200.jpg

Looks a lot more like Amsterdam than a tropical island off the coast of Venezuela, doesn't it?

(That's a canal running in front of the buildings.)

Edit: I just read that Willemstad has just been named a World Heritage Site.

Rich

The two-set carafes depict Prinsengracht Amsterdam, Delft Blue made in Holland.

Rich - thanks for those links. I always enjoyed Norman Rockwell's illustrations. He had a great sense of humor also. And he was another artist who loved putting himself somewhere in his paintings. If you forget to sign your art works I would think there is no doubt it's yours if your face is painted in it somewhere.

Emma

I saw a TV interview of Norman Rockwell many years ago. So long ago, in fact, that I think it was in black and white. He refused to let people call him an artist he preferred to refer to himself as an "illustrator."

The Norman Rockwell Museum in western Massachusetts has most of his work on display in a beautiful facility in a scenic setting. His work showed Americana in the 20th century better than anyone.

I was once a volunteer tutor for foreign college students who wanted to learn better English and learn about America at the same time. One effective technique that I used was to show the student any Norman Rockwell print and have him describe to me, in English, what he saw.

It accomplished both objectives.

Rich

Oh what a GOOD idea, using Norman Rockwell to tell American values, aren't you smart, I would never have thought of that and it's perfect. I've got two more museum art display paintings to bring here after lunch, I think you'll be amazed. Thank you for the wonderful links. I love Norman Rockwell. Isn't there a travelling exhibit of his works currently?

Also delft tile, I am not sure if you caught that Antiques Road Show bit on them, but apparently they are in huge demand and quite valuable, I loved one particularly from WWII, they kind of dismissed that one and said there were LOTS of them. I have not been able to find any.

It showed a mother and little child standing on cliff overlooking the sea waving at incoming Allied liberation forces. I would kill to have one, it was beautiful, and like Norman Rockwell's work, showed something of the heart of the people.

I have googled my little eyes out tho to no avail, can't find it anywhere, yet it's COMMON. Rare but common.

Do you suppose that they laid those tiles where you'd see a lot of them? Might be really busy, I must catch up to you all and find out the USE!

After lunch!

You can see the influence of Rockwell in the work of this artist for a tile from Holland.

It's called "The Shoemaker", and is available for purchase over the net.

Brian

Brian - that's wonderful (the Shoemaker) and it does look a lot like a Rockwell illustration.

The Dutch Store....Delft Blue Tiles, Delft Blue, and Windmills links on the left sidebar. It's interesting, I always thought of Delft Blue tiles as being blue and white .......hmmmmmmmm .
Brian - the Wooden Shoe Maker is there.
Emma

I like that "Shoemaker" tile. There's something about a craftsman at work that gives a piece that "homespun" look.

Rich

Ginny, I might have found the tile you were looking for.

http://www.ragoarts.com/onlinecats/01.04AC/410.jpg

They were made in Holland by the Dutch underground during the German occupation; sort of like propaganda posters. The one on the lower right showed Dutch citizens slaying a dragon, which represented NAZI Germany.

The collection of four sold for $700 at auction in 2004.

Rich

RICH!!! WOW that one is VERY close! VERY! VERY close, thank you for that!

WOW!!!! Thank you for that catalogue link also. The PBS Program said that they were relatively common, (to be rare) but I've never seen one, thank you so much!!

The one on tv was very similar but more of a silhouette the woman and child alone against the hill, wow!

WOW!~!

Thank you!!

Oh I love tiles. I collect them, am I the only one? They make wonderful trip souvenirs. I like to get them wherever I go then on Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever, I use them under the hot dishes and it's always fun to remember where we've been, here's the last one I got last year from Holland (or was it in 2004, can't remember):

And here, although it's hard to see is something kind of interesting, I better only scan in one of these, this is showing how the art galleries of old used to look and this one, in keeping with our pages here and Swanenburg's own sojourn in Naples (which area was absolutely cram packed with artists but not in the 1600's) here is

the Gallery of Ancient Rome by Giovanni Pannini (1671-1765) who, according to the book The Search for Ancient Rome, was a decorator of French Palaces for the French Ambasador to Rome.

This painting apparently shows several important themes:

The popularity if the vedute (views)

Decoration

Collecting objects of antiques

A sense of playfulness.

One is supposed to enjoy identifying the sculptures: on the left the Farnese Hercules and the Dying Gaul, on the right Spinario or Boy Picking a Thorn from hi Foot, and the Laocoon Group.

Among the monuments on the left, the Arch of Constantine, the Arch of Titus, and the three columns of the Temple of Vespasian, the Pantheon and the Colosseum.

So antiquities played a major subject in this time period as we've seen, but I thought the depiction of the "not an inch left" photos on the walls was really interesting.

I loved this section. Only ONE art manual and a funeral of 300 mourners, there was an author!

Surely they never dug up corpses for black! Surely they had enough black to last a lifetime.

Strange on the cinnabar, that's one reason the House of Caecilius Iucundus in Pompeii is closed: the discovery of the rare pigment cinnabar on the walls!

What on earth is a Mexican Shield lice? Hahaha

I would really like to see Swanenburg's Cumaean Sibyl, am going to Cumae if nothing happens in a few weeks and would like to see how he portrayed her, she was what you might call OLD? Haahaha I did not like Margaret Drabble's book on her but it sure made a point. I might reread it.

But now if brown and grey are "dead colorings" then why is so much of that showing in Rembrandt's art and in the art of the day? Look at that Hell Scene, wow. I can't really make out what I'm seeing, is that a giant mouth with teeth on the right? A giant MAW? Certainly is dark enough and hellish for me.

We've got two samples of art in this one, ONE a Rembrandt!! What did you think of the Sense of Sight (The Spectacles Dealer)? How big is a centimeter? When they say it's 21 by 17.8 cm, what is that roughly?

It is really good to know that when Rembrandt went into this field it was booming, everybody had art (didn't you love that about how it was a cheap covering like the rich man's tapestry for holes in the wall?)

And certainly without the art of the Romans we would never have known what some of the external appearances of the fabulous villas was!

There are 2.54 centimeters in an inch. So a painting 21 by 17.8 centimeters would be approximately 8.3 by 7.0 inches. Pretty small.

I like the author's reference to Swanenburg as someone with a "peculiar hand." It looks like Rembrandt learned how to create pigments under Swanenburg, but he surely didn't adopt his mentor's subject matter. Interesting, though, how the old pigments were made, e.g. etching Swedish copper with acidic wine to get green, or mashing female Mexican shield lice to get red. Who thought of that first? Why Mexican, and not Dutch lice and, most importantly, how did they know the difference between the female and male mexican shield lice?

Rich

I lost a post somewhere! In which I made a risible mention of Brian's whimsical round top photos! hahaah

Thank you EmmaBarb, and Rich, OK I'll play the ignorant one, did the Dutch know about Mexico in the 1600's? (This will show us who really knows history!)

1600's? When was Coronado there, that's pretty early. uggers on the lice thing.

In 1519, the Spanish explorer Hernan Cortez entered Mexico city. During the 1600's, the Spanish knew a lot about Mexico, and the Dutch knew a lot about the Spanish because of their occupation and wars with Spain.

In 1540, Coronado entered what is now Arizona looking for the mythical Seven Cities of Gold.

Rich

I just realized I own a Delft Blue trivet made in Holland...it's a man on a horse with the number 39 embedded on the back. It was given to me about 50-yrs ago as a souvenir from the Kentucky Derby. I've used it as a plant stand all these years and didn't realize what I had.

Ginny ~ your tile you posted here is georgeous. Oh and wow that painting by Pannini is wonderful, thank you for posting those images.

One thing amazes me is what Rembrandt had to go through to mix his pigments, that alone would have discouraged me from actually painting something. Thank goodness they come in tubes now. This is however (the commercial pigments of today) one reason you probably won't see our paintings 400 years from now.
Emma

Just read up to page 218. Prof. Schama goes on at length about Karl Van Mander and his "Schilder Boeck." I guess Van Mander tried to reduce painting to a series of formulas and rules. That's O.K. if you want every painting to look like every other painting. He left little room for creativity.

I have to assume that Rembrandt rejects Van Mander.

Rich

Schama mentioned that Van Mander was a Mennonite. I don't see a Mennonite writing a book on art. I thought Mennonites rejected all things worldly except what you needed to raise or gather for food and clothing.

Maybe Mennonites were different then.

Rich

I was in Mexico about a week ago, and we went by a Mennonite settlement in the state of Chihuahua. None of them looked like painters. All the men looked like they were auditioning for a role as John-Boy in "The Waltons," and the women walked around wearing scarves over their heads. The young girls all looked like Gretel from "Hansel and Gretel."

In their settlement (which has been there since the 1800's) they raised dairy cows, principly to make cheese, which they sold.

Rich

I think Rubens was more influenced by van Mander's book on painting rules than Rembrandt was. I'd love to see a copy of this book.....has anyone checked to see anything online ?
Dutch painter Karel van Mander (1548 - 1606)

There are about thirty paintings in existence which are known to be by Karel van Mander. In the Rijksmuseum there is a painting on copper executed entirely according to the rules which he himself had laid down in his writings. His books about art and artists were famous in his own time and are still an important source of information for art history today.

Brian

Rembrandt: Connoisseur of the Ordinary

Brian, I like that- "More writer than painter." The painting you showed us does look like it was constructed using a formula. But his writing was important in art history, so, as you say, Van Mander did make a contribution to art, in his own way.

Mal, Nice link. Lots of in-depth info on our man Rembrandt.

Rich

MAL: I love "He aimed in his work, he wrote to one of his patrons, the Stadtholder, who employed his friend Constantijn Huygens, to produce die meeste ende die natureelste beweechlickheyt - the greatest and most natural movement".

actually, I love the language. We don't have words in English like "beweechlickheyt"!

I'm in California just now and, surprise, surprise, I didn't take Schama on the plane with me (I wonder how much they would have charged me for overweight?) So I'm really behind.

But my daughter got a print of "The Night Watch". I confidently said that Rembrandt had painted himself as one of the figures, and then couldn't find him. There's a lovely two page print in the book. Does anyone want to check me out?

You can see Rembrandt's bulbous nose, his right eye and his painter's flat hat,
as he looks up and to the right.

Brian

Yeah, that could be him. A youngish Rembrandt, but still Rembrandt.

What is it about artists putting themselves into their paintings? Rubens, Rockwell, and now Rembrandt. A psychologist probably could tell us something about that. An attempt at immortality, or simple vanity?

Maybe the artist is just exercising his sense of humor. (There is a wry smile on his lips in a scene filled with otherwise serious faces.)

Rich

Rembrandt's image is between the other two, and only his nose and right eye is visible.

Brian.

OOPS! I was looking at the figure on the right. Sort of a bulbous nose, no?

Yes, after looking harder, I can see that there is another face looking over his right shoulder (left as you look at it). Even more of a comical image; kind of a "Kilroy Was Here" look.

Rich

Who knows why some artists paint themselves into their paintings. It could be their way of saying I did this rather than a signature ? Maybe it is or was a lack models at the time ? Rockwell did a painting with about nine or maybe more images of himself in it....personally I think it was meant to be humorous.

This is what I think of when I see that image of Rembrandt peeking into the painting.

http://www.ostrichbay.com/raft/past/august99/kilroy.htm

The accompanying story is interesting. One of the things I didn't know was that the image was beginning to get into Hitler's paranoid psyche.

Rich

I well remember Kilroy ! - - - and have scribbled hundreds of his images over the years.

Rembrandt's image in the Night Watch does, indeed, resemble Kilroy; and is probably inserted for the same reason.
"I'm GOOD, and I know it, and don't you forgrt it !!!"

Brian

Rich - interesting about Kilroy, I remember drawing him as a young girl living in a boarding school. Do you think the Smiley face or Elvis was here has replaced Kilroy ?

I keep meaning to bring this stuff in here in case you are not reading the Book Nook in the Books or the Forum in the Classics area, but yesterday I had an exhilerating conversation with none other than the great Thomas Hoving, former Director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (1967-1977) because of course he's much in the news on the story of the Met and the Euphronios krater, and he's got a new book out ON art, which I think you will want to know about as well as a new edition of his King of the Confessors which no person who has ever stepped into a museum should miss: it details what actually goes on when a new piece is acquired.

Sunday's NY Times Magazine had a full page interview with Phillipe de Montebello, current Director of the Metropolitan, and that prompted me to write Mr. Hoving, here's the background:

You can't pick up the newspaper or turn on the television and not see some new and miraculous finds (Egypt! Rome!) or the ongoing wars over the returns of antiquities TO their proper homes.

In 1998 our Books & Literature sections read Thomas Hoving's book King of the Confessors , which I must confess is one of the best books I have ever read, about his struggle to obtain the Bury St. Edmunds Cross for the Cloisters Museum. (Hoving was formerly Curator of the Cloisters Museum in NYC and then Director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art for years). It and his other book Making the Mummies Dance, show what Curators and Museum Directors really go thru.

The Books & Lit book clubs went to NYC and met with Thomas Hoving shown here telling us about the Bury St. Edmund's cross and the search for the missing piece

and he was not only gracious and most generous with his time, meeting with us over lunch and giving a preliminary talk on the Cross, but then he gave us a private meeting in the Cloisters as you can see and talked with us about it: it was a magic time with a magic person: he's larger than life; an incredible presence and experience for us, and his book King of the Confessors reads like a Raiders of the Lost Arc thriller, only better, because it's true. See our 1998 First Annual Meeting of the Books in NYC! For more!

Fans of Hoving (who is also the person responsible for getting the huge Egyptian Temple of Dendur in the Met) will be pleased to hear he's in the news again, and was recently seen being interviewed, on the present furor over the provenance of antiquities and court cases.

Last Saturday and Sunday's Wall Street Journal, Weekend Edition, page 1 news is Pietro Casasanta But why is HE in the news?

Does his name ring a bell? If you can get a copy or look at this issue, it's on page 1, and what he is, is something somewhat anachronistic and unusual (and illegal). He's a tombaroli or grave robber. For 50 years Mr. Casanata has unearthed and sold on the black market hundreds of finds to museums, and collectors and other, including dealers. Among his finds is a 6 ton marble Capitoline Triad, shown in smaller relief here, now in the Palestrina National Archaeological Museum near Rome.

The article says at least 80 percent of Roman antiquities on the market are the fruit of digging by tombaroli.

Since 1909 Italian law has prohibited any ancient artifact leaving Italy and Italy is now demanding the return of items which cannot be documented before that time.

I can remember hearing stories of antiquities cheap and plentiful until Italy cracked down. What I did not realize is that this has continued.

The article says that they now use helicopters to find these tombaroli, who often operate by night but who sometimes pay off a farmer to pose as a workman by day. Mr. Casananta has done this since he was a boy, he's a self taught archaeologist and seems to have an uncanny knack for finding treasures. He uses a "power shovel," to unearth the artifacts. He discovered an area in 1970 called l'Invioltata, and has pulled out some "63 statues" from that site alone. The article says that "police have a tough time because putting a shovel in the ground just about anywhere in Italy can turn up fragments of the Roman Empire.

When furniture retailer Ikea built a store south of Rome a few years ago, it found a street from 700 BC. Ikea decided to preserve vases and other items in a glass display case in the parking lot."

Can you imagine? I would go crazy if I lived in Italy, and probably dig up my entire yard a million times, just like Lucia did in the EF Benson books.

Mr. Casasanta does not see anything wrong with what he's doing, in fact he considers himself a "hero," tho he has been imprisoned, and has lost most of his possessions, and feels he has preserved these treasures for all time so more can enjoy them. He says for centuries mayors and other builders have built heedlessly over these ruins, destroying them. He is saving them. He has the thrill of discovery even tho when he visits the museums his name is not on the pieces.

Unfortunately the article says all of the tombaroli are not so scrupulous. Broken pieces bring more than intact ones to museums, so often they will smash them. It's hard to imagine smashing some of these huge gorgeous pieces, but apparently having sold one half of a treasure to a museum, when the other half is miraculously "found," museums find the "completing pieces " extremely desirable when they turn up and have to have them, at a greater price for the two (or three) pieces than they would have paid for one, totally unsuspecting that the dealer had the intact piece originally!! Shades of Alcubierre, the blackest name (so far) in archaeology.

Another recent and very famous casualty of this highly publicized provenance war besides the Elgin Marbles is the

Euphronios Krater (circa 515 B.C.) in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

The Met has, after a 30 year dispute, agreed to give Italy ownership of this 6th century BC Greek wine bowl, and is one of many acquired in the '70's from dealer Robert Hecht; part of a complicated agreement for long term loan of artifacts from Rome.

I just saw this krater in person and took photos of it for our Iliad discussion, because on it you can see the death of Sarpedon, it's amazing

Euphronios Krater: Click to enlarge

I am sure you have seen some of this in the news, there are a lot of other items under dispute: in the Getty Museum, the Elgin Marbles in the British Museum, , what do you think about this issue now in the news? I've got a new book on Lady Elgin and the marbles but have not read it yet.

And of course Egypt is threatening to bury its pharaohs again.

Do you think the artifacts belong to the museums now keeping them or the country they were taken from? If YOU were on the jury what would you decide? Is it the fault of the Museum if they buy in good faith? I am wondering if the tombaroli are the bottom of the chain of blame here.

I wrote Thomas Hoving yesterday morning to see what his reaction is to all the news, and I did hear back, and there's much exciting news, believe it or not. I am so glad I wrote!

First off he has a brand new book out, just this past December and it looks fabulous, rave reviews, is available on Amazon and is called Master Pieces: The Curator's Game (don't you LOVE that title?), here are two quotes on it from Amazon:

Credited with initiating the blockbuster exhibitions that have made museums a destination for the many rather than an enclave for the few, Hoving, a former director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art and a best-selling author, shares an insider strategy, the "curator's game." It's a simple endeavor. One curator presents his or her peers with close-up photographs of details found in various artworks. The others must then identify the canvas from which it came. Since a curator's work, Hoving writes, is "all about looking," especially "scrutinizing the details," this game sharpens a curator's investigative skills and knowledge. In keeping with his egalitarian spirit, Hoving has created a challenging game of "master pieces" for the public: 214 details and verbal clues are sorted into categories that range from vases to farm animals to bottoms (Hoving's irreverent approach to nudes) to angels. These are followed by reproductions of the 57 paintings from which these details are taken, each the subject of a pithy and informative essay. In all, this is good, smart fun handsomely presented

. Donna Seaman Copyright © American Library Association.

Book Description A stunning visual game that helps readers enjoy, appreciate, and identify great works of art.

As director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art for a decade, Thomas Hoving brought art to a new level of public awareness by pioneering such blockbuster shows as the King Tut exhibit. Early in his career, Hoving was introduced to the "curator's game." Each week, he and his contemporaries met to examine details of larger museum masterpieces. Whoever correctly identified the detail in context won free coffee: the losers paid.

In an imaginative adaptation of this exercise, Hoving introduces us to the challenge and the fun of identifying art, and to the rewards of familiarity with the great works. A section of paintings accompanied by brief essays introduces a range of artists, themes, techniques, and styles, while progressively demanding "clues" are provided to help identify visual details in context. No experience is necessary to play this game. Readers at all levels will discover the fun of identifying and remembering great art. 250 color illustrations. Amazon

I've ordered two copies, one for my Daughter in Law, and will let you know more when they come. I have always wondered about their selection process, and this sounds, for those who are interested in art, like a dream!

THEN if that's not enough he has his original King of the Confessors now available in a new edition with much added on Cybereditions.com , which is a downloadable site for books which are otherwise out of print. It says King of the Confessors has been updated!!!!

King of the Confessors is Thomas Hoving's gripping account of the extraordinary events surrounding the Metropolitan Museum of Art's purchase, in 1963, of the magnificent medieval carved walrus ivory cross which the Museum calls 'The Cloisters Cross', but Hoving calls 'The Bury St Edmunds Cross'. This new edition contains revelations that render the events even more extraordinary, and explains why Hoving thinks the Museum has got it wrong.

Wow!

And he's given us two sources for full statements he made last week on the Euphronius krater. One is in the LA Times and the other the NY Sun, I'm going to see if I can find them, online, he's sooo HOT right now, and he's given US a quote too, AND permission to use it:

I think it's great that both the Met and Italy have grown up and both have created an excellent loan-exchange program with the clearly smuggled Krater. This way the MMA will get on 4-year loan and over many years spectacular objects that they cannot buy anymore.

Well! WHAT an exciting morning, all initiated by you, Stephanie! My favorite book of all time has got a new edition and all kinds of exciting stuff in it and I can get a nice new copy AND Thomas Hoving has a brand new book out, only a few months old, AND it looks smashing, can't WAIT for it to come.

WHEE!

And here is more news, just in:

King of the Confessors is also available at the NY Public library the new edition of King of the Confessors is available for PDF download, and he's written that it's FULL of LOTS of new stuff!!! I know if you read it you have questions, apparently he answers them, and more. I have got to have that book.

There are actually THREE articles, one only a couple of days old, but NY Sun requires a subscription to read their two.

Here's the first article, it's in the New York Sun which, as mentioned, requires a subscription to read it but SAY they give free trial offers, so I've taken one out, it's very interesting, however, you have to actually produce the credit card for the trial, so I expect you might not want to do that, but it's a terrific article and quotes all the people you're hearing about in the news including the Getty Museum, Hoving (who apparently is the person to coin the term "hot pot,") and lots of others, it's a good article.

And there's ANOTHER one, only 4 days old, also in the Sun Times in which art critic Hilton Kramer is very negative about Hoving, and apparently takes the word "critic" quite literally and is famous for his criticisms in general. He's compiling some of his somewhat caustic writings into something he's tentatively calling "The Triumph of Modernism." I can see how there might be some conflict there, hahaha.

The Los Angeles Times, also on February 3, 2006, has an article which mentions Hoving also in a very brief quote, and it's a good one too. NY Museum to Return Allegedly Looted Vase and this one requires a FREE REGISTRATION in order to read and it's quite interesting, I do recommend it, but he's only got the one line, this is sooo in the news now apparently the krater was purchased when Hoving was Director of the Metropolitan Museum, and we in SeniorNet's Books & Literature have a connection with one of the people most quoted, it's very exciting. He's actually given us more than he has in the articles, too.

Who KNEW the world of art, museums, and ancient art could be so interesting? I think King of the Confessors is the best book I ever read, and I thought you might like to know of these developments, especially if this type of art interests you!

Ginny ~ I've yet to venture into the Book Nook or the Forum on Classics. After your post about Thomas Hoving I should do that. Thanks so much for the details of the interview.
I just hate grave robbers ! And I hate people who knowingly buy these items just as much !
It's so amazing how much ancient history there is in Italy.

Hoving's story on the "krater" : -

http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/features/hoving/hoving7-16-01.asp

Brian

Ginny,

I keep returning to your comment: "'King of the Confessors' is the best book I have ever read," and thinking maybe Ginny means best art book, or best book about a curator's work. But then maybe she really means best BOOK, period.

If the statement means best book (with no limiting adjectives before the word "book"), I have to get it and read it immediately, otherwise I'll put it on my "to read someday" list.

Rich

It is a GREAT book! Wonderful book, just wonderful! Reads like a spy novel, but is true? Try it from the library first to see if you like it, and then you'll want the new copy which is downloadable with the extra new stuff in it!

They apparently signed a deal to return the Greek 2,500-yr old vase back to Italy.
Interesting about the strong bottom....I think the reference is to the bottom edges which holds the picture in.

"Rembrandt DVD, 400 Years"...I'd like to check this out to see if it's something worth having. Looks like it is already available and in English. A 2-CD set for $24.95 ? I guess I would want the American version --- SKU 8717438 170022 (NTSC-system...whatever that is ?). It doesn't say anything about S&H for a mailorder.

Emma

I'm getting from the reading that Rembrandt's second art tutor, Pieter Lastman of Amsterdam was a follower of van Mander's rules for painting, but he made his subjects more "human" and emotionally expressive. Lastman's "Coriolanus and the Roman women" seems to fit that style.

Somebody tell me if I'm getting this wrong. Sharma's writing style is sometimes difficult for me.

Rich

BRIAN: thanks for finding Rembrandt for me. No wonder I couldn't see him. Even when you know he's there, he's hard to see.

I've been watching your men's curling team smash first us and then Finland to win a gold medal. Congratulations, they were awesome. For us, I'm pleased that we won our first curling medal ever -- a bronze.

Yes, Brian, congrats on the curling gold medal. The U.S. sort of surprisingly won a bronze. That will help grow interest in the sport, here.

Joan, welcome back!

Rich

The Canada - Finland final game showed the second best curling shot I have ever seen :
Mark Nicholls, the man playing third, made a triple take-out on his first shot to clear the
house of Finnish rocks, and then followed it up with another perfect take-out when his opposing third
tried to bury a rock behind the remaining Canadian stones. The resulting six-ender (it should have
been seven) clinched the medal.

I have never had a "Hole in One" playing golf, but did get an "Eight ender" in curling.
It was about 15 years ago, in our City Bonspiel.

Thanks Joan and Rich for your kind thoughts.

Emma I have ordered the Rembrandt DVD, and am awaiting delivery. I read the advert,
and it said that the "handling" was "zero" - - - we shall see.

Brian

Well I wondered how much of that shrieking I heard coming from the north was our Brian and just look! Congratters, our Brian and I think the US did pretty darn well, too!

I want that Rembrandt! Want a full report of how good the DVD is, thank you Emma for mentioning it. My husband gave me one of those portable DVD players for Christmas and I can't seem to stop playing it, want to hear ALL!

Welcome back Joan K!

Rich you are the SHARPEST closest reader, I bet NOBODY gets a contract by you! Great group here!

more anon

Professor Schama is surely a word smith. On page 226, in referring to Rembrandt's studies under Lastman, Schama says, "Trying for emulation he sometimes ends up in imitation."

In my muddled mind, I thought emulation and imitation were synonyms. In fact, the thesaurus I use, offers emulation as a substitute for imitation. Not so. Schama strikes again.

My heavy (even heavier that "Rembrandt's Eyes") "Oxford American Dictionary" tells me that imitatation is an attempt at copying. Emulation is an attempt at equaling or surpassing in achievement.

I still have things to learn about my native tongue.

Rich

I find it mindboggling sometimes to try to follow Prof. Schama's thought process when he wrote this book. I sometimes wonder if a strong wind came in thru the window and scattered his manuscript all around (ha).
Just when I thought we were back to Rembrandt, he devoted one sentence to him then back to Rubens and his peace mission which turns out he was being used.

By-the-way, I read something interesting in another book that "The Night Watch" had about a yard of the canvas cut away on the left side and a foot on the right while trying to fit the painting between a doorway. Some of the vital parts of this painting have been destroyed thus making the center characters not what Rembrandt originally intended.
Emma

EMMA: that's very interesting!

I just saw a fascinating program on PBS on Cezanne in Provence. Did any of you see it? When he built his studio, he had a special slit put in the height of the building so he could move large canvasses in and out.

I'm back in Maryland now, and way behind in "Rembrandt". I assume where it says "4/2/06" in the heading, it means 3/2/06?

4/2/06 is correct. That is when Ginny will return from Greece, Rome, and Vesuvius. And we are all hoping she won't get too close to the edge.

JoanK ~ I hadn't heard that about the slit to carry large canvases in and out, how about that. Another reason why artist's studios have such high ceilings.

Now I've gone back to reading Schama, 4/2 sounds about right. I'm way back with the picture of the old woman reading. I love that picture -- it's me (although if it was me, it probably wouldn't be scriptures I'd be reading).

In "The Magnanimity of Claudius Civilis" (p 227) a very young Rembrandt has again painted himself into the scene; once more peering over someone's shoulder in the background.

The author gives his theory for such a practice:- "Self inclusion may well have been a way of 'signing' the painting without writing in his name."

In his footnote the author further explains that the precedent was set by some earlier Italian artists.

Rich

This is the painting to which Rich refers.

http://www.thefrogprints.com/onoffwall3.htm

Here we can see that others have the same opinions as we do about Schama's "shooting off at the mouth".

Brian

Brian - thank you for that interesting link.

In "The Stoning of St. Stephan" the author tells us Rembrandt used himself as a model three times; once as executioner, once as victim, and once as a witness peering under the arm of the executioner.

Rembrandt was only 19 or 20 years old, and apparently still a student, when he produced this work.

Thanks, Brian, for the lesson on posting images.

Rich

Your image is fine, but a little bigger than the specifications laid down by SeniorNet.
Next time, make sure that it is a little smaller by making the "image width" less - - -

<*img width="50%" src="here put the URL of your Image"> <*/a> (once again, leave out the asterisks)
and, once again, try the Practice Area to see how it looks.

Brian

Thanks, Brian. I think I have it now. (After another session in the "Practice Special Effects" room.)

Maybe that thing about old dogs and new tricks is all wrong.

Rich

Brian - amazing. I wonder at what age Rembrandt was when he painted himself several times into this painting ? The witness peering under the arm really looks like him as a younger Rembrandt.

The reading is getting interesting as we watch Rembrandt mature as an artist. Schama points out that at the time of Rembrandt's "Balaam and the Ass" and "Anna, Tobit, and the Kid" there were far greater painters than he in the Netherlands.:- van de Velde, Hals and Porcellis for example, and Rubens was in his prime in Antwerp.

So we're told that Rembrandt had a sort of "shoe fetish." He liked to paint old shoes on people. That's a bit different than the Imelda Marcos variety of shoe fetish. None of Rembrandt's subjects seem to be wearing Birkenstocks.

Rich

I admit I can't see that the people in "Stoning" are Rembrandt. They are cleanshaven and have round faces, but otherwise, do they look like him to you?

The comparison of Rembrandt's pictures tho his teacher's are interesting (although I had to use a magnifying glass to follow with those small prints. Finally in Balaam's Ass, he really seems to me to surpass his teacher.

I agree with you, Joan. The three images in "Stoning" don't look like anything we think of as Rembrandt. However, the only image of Rembrandt that we have to work with in our minds are his own self- portraits done later in life. We don't really know what he looked like as a 19 year old.

We'll have to take the experts' word for it that, at the time, he had a round face, pudgy cheeks, and curly hair.

He does appear to have surpassed his teacher in "Balaam's Ass." Also, the author makes a reference to "Rembrandt's eyes" in describing that painting, but I didn't understand what he meant. I have the feeling I missed something important in that reference, being that "Rembrandt's Eyes" is also the title he chose for the book.

Rich

As I read nearly half the book now, I have the feeling that Prof. Schama is wanting us to look at the "world of Rembrandt" as Rembrandt saw it rather than focusing on the artist's eyes or how they were painted. What do you think ?

Good point!! In other words, we are to see the world through Rembrandt's eyes.

Where has everyone gone?

I've lost track of where we are supposed to be. I hurried through Rubens' futile and doomed diplomatic mission to get back to Rembrandt, and am brought up short by the stunning painting of Christ!!

I'm ready to get back to Rembrandt's paintings. By-the-way, I contacted the people about ordering the Rembrandt 400 yrs DVD through the mail and was told in an e-mail they do not accept checks

I'm here. Had lots of company coming and going, lately. Now it's back to Rembrandt for me.

Rich

Nothing important to post. Just reporting that I am reading and enjoying the book. I'm at page 262 and fascinated with the comparison of similar works done contemporarily (contemporaneously?) by Rembrandt and his friend Jan Lievens.

Lievens was well liked in Leiden and it would seem that he was expected to become the home town favorite. The comparison of Rembrandt's paintings to Lievens shows great similarities (even the sharing of models), but, from those comparisons, you can see the beginning of genius in Rembrandt.

Rich

Good for you, Rich. I'm sorry Rubens wasted his time, going on a mission that had no chance of succeeding and meeting all of those painters who fell into obscurity, but it's not very interesting reading!! Back to R, in a competition with a child prodigy.

What did you think of the picture of Christ?

JoanK ~ Which painting of Christ - page # please ? My favorite is Rembrandt's Christ in the Storm. I believe that was his only sea painting.

My local radio station has a story time [for lack of a better expression]. Today it just finished "Amadeus." According to the story, Mozart and Salieri certainly had an odd relationship. Maybe it's hard for geniuses to have friends in the same field.

I enjoy the book, but sometimes Schama strays far afield.

Hi Joan, If by the painting of Christ, you mean the one of Christ in The Supper at Emmaus," I don't think the image in the book does it justice. Christ appears on the book page as a sillouete (sp?) with no detail. My guess is that the actual painting shows considerably more detail. Believe it or not, there is supposed to be a third person in the painting, prostrated at Christ's feet. I don't see him do you?

Also, the way he is seated seems awkward and stiff. My favorite of the group is Carravagio's "The Supper at Emmaus," p 250.

Rich

Rich - I never saw that third person in the one of Christ in the Supper at Emmaus....supposedly at Christ's feet ? It's my personal opinion that the reproductions in the book are not of very high quality.

I agree -- I couldn't find any sign of the third person. But the painting is certainly striking!!

The madness continues! My niece is sending me DVDs of Olympic curling matches, so I can feed my new addiction! She lives in Massachusetts, and hopes to find some curlers there.

Don't count on it. I lived in Massachusetts most of my life, and the only curler I ever saw was the kind my wife used in her hair.

I think you have to go to Alberta to see a lot of sport curlers.

Brian has been silent, lately, but the mere mention of the word "curling" will get him back. Where are you Brian?

Rich

I am presently in Regina, this year's site for the Brier, enjoying the Games. I will give further news when I return to Edmonton.

Brian

I tried curling one time when I was skiing in Canada then went swimming in the heated pool which was right next to the curling rink

OK, all you art historians. Is there a Brueghel painting which involves a swing? In the poetry discussion, we read a Seamus Heaney poem that mentions it, but no one can find it (It's not in "Children's Games").

Pieter Brueghel painting with a swing ? In the one you mention (Children's Games), is that a child on a swing from a tree on the left side....in a white dress ? How does the poem reference the painting ?
My favorite painting called "The Swing" was done by Jean Honore Fragonard.

Joan,I came to the same conclusions as Emma Barb. Fragonard produced the most famous "swing" painting. I couldnt come up with anything by Brueghel about a swing.

Rich

I'm learning stuff about Rembrandt. A lot of his paintings show metallic objects such as armor and swords very realistically. It seems he used a technique that created an effect the author called "transparent luminosity." Over a chalk and glue size Rembrandt applied a thin layer of yellow-brown and lead white. The technique gave a realistic "glowing" appearance to metallic objects.

Liked his painting of Sampson and Delilah. It seems he liked to put a bit of unusual twist into his works to sort of tweak the nose of traditionalists of the time. Delilah's dirty toenails served to accomplish that objective in "Sampson and Delilah."

Rich

I can't find the figure in white with a swing in Children's Games. There's a boy with a white shirt who looks like he's climbing a tree.

The swing in Fragonard doesn't look like a children's game any more, but a very grown-up game!

Pieter Bruegel (a Flemish artist) painted over 250 children on that panel "Children's Games", you'd think there would be at least one on a swing. There is a couple in the foreground making a swing with their arms to carry a child. Could that be the reference in the poem ?
I saw the boy climbing the tree. There is a detail of this (click here as well as other cutouts of full painting. Click the thumbnail to see a nice big image.

Emma

JoanK, EmmaBarb and Rich7,

Thanks for all the research. We have enough information now. Jim in Jeff found many swings. Like you, we didn't find any Brueghel with a swing. Thanks for the help.

... Not Fragonard. Nor Breughel. It was more Hans Memling's light of heaven off green grass, light over fields and hedges, the shed-mouth sunstruck and expectant, the bedding-straw piled to one side like a nativity foreground and background waiting for the figures. And then, in the middle ground, the swing itself ...

I also really liked Rembrandt's painting of "Sampson and Deliah". Too bad he finally told her the secret of his strength (I think he talked in his sleep one night he was drunk). Just horrible the soldiers gouged his eyes out. Don't know why Rembrandt painted Deliah with dirty feet....maybe it was because she betrayed Sampson just for the money.

I like the painting a lot, too. R, even in his history pictures, the people seem like real people. You feel you know them!!

I can't see her feet as dirty. His are. I guess the bare feet suggest that they've just been making love and thrown their robes on, but not their shoes. (I sneakily wondered if it was because R provided the suitable robes for his models, but didn't have any suitable shoes).

The painting seems all wrong to me. The soldier is all ready with his sword, but now will have to wait while she finds some scissors and cuts his hair?! But that's my nitpicking self.

Appropriate musical accompaniment? ...Tom Jones in the spotlight, wearing a silver sequin vest, and crooning:-

Why, why, whyyyy Delilah?

My, my, myyyy Delilah.

Rich

The madness grows! Netflix is sending me a movie masterpiece entitled "Men with Brooms", as far as I know the only movie made about curling. Don't all run out and rent it -- I've been warned it's not very good. I'll report after I've seen it.

Is there a 12 step program for this?

Sampson fell in love with the Gentile, Delilah (considered unclean because of where she came from, thus the dirty feet in Rembrandt's painting....my thought on this). Sampson was told not to marry a gentile by his people. He apparently moved in with her and they lived together out of wedlock. I think they even had a child out of wedlock.

Rich - Tom Jones has always been a favorite of mine.....love his "why oh why Delilah".

Ooops! Luckily my Jewish husband didn't know that when he married gentile me 50 years ago. Or maybe he knew and didn't care. Practically every older member of each family prophesied gloom and doom, but they were all wrong. (Maybe it's because in 50 years, I never cut Dick's hair).Now almost all of the children of the gloom-and-doom sayers have married gentiles.

You know, after this Delilah thing, it's got me thinking, too. My barber is a woman. Maybe I should change. Course she's no Delilah. (And I'm no Sampson. -Thought I'd say that before one of you did.)

JoanK ~ thankfully we have changed some things for the better after all these years. Both my boys were circumscised at my request.

Rich - I didn't understand it to be Delilah that cut off Samson's hair but that he was asleep on her lap and the guy in the back with knife actually did it.

John Milton: "Samson Agonistes". I found this in my "North Anthology of English Literature" which I hadn't picked up to read in years. Lots on this if you care to Google it.

Emma

Emma, You're right. Delilah did not cut off his hair, she set him up for the "haircut."

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage coming into this discussion after it had been running for a while. The introduction of Huygens in the story seems to have come from nowhere, but the author writes of him like he were an old friend we all knew. The only Huygens I am familiar with is from my undergraduate study of physics. That Huygens was one of the early theorizers of the wave nature of light.

Getting a little ahead of where we are supposed to be in the reading, I just want to say I like Rembrandt's "Repentant Judas" (p266). You can see his use of what Schama calls "transparent luminosity" in the metal shield on the wall over the priests. That is very "Rembrandt."

Being always interested in word origins, I enjoyed the author's explanation for the origin of the Dutch word for painter "schilder" (loosely, one who paints shields). Presumably painting shields was the first serious employment for painters in the Netherlands. (Not counting house painters.)

Rich

Rich - I haven't paid too much attention to Huygens, but may I should.
It is interesting how words change. Just the other day I read an employment Ad in the newspaper that Subway (the people that make sandwiches) were wanting to hire a "sandwich artist". (say what ?)

He has talked about the Huygens before -- you're right, there are two of them. I'll get the reference and post it tomorrow.

Don't run out and rent "Men with Brooms" -- too much plot and too little curling. Who wants to look at sex, love, violence, family relations when they could be looking at curling (I told you I'm addicted). But I did find out one interesting thing -- what this "The Brier" is that Brian went off to -- a curling championship of course.

<THE BRIER

Brian: come back -- we need you.

I also found out that curling goes back to at least 1511. Mmmmmmmm, I wonder if Rembrandt -- no, I guess not.

RICH: no wonder you were confused. The paragraph at the bottom of p. 267 is a direct continuation of the story that Schama began to tell on pages 9-12. Presumably, he assumed that we wouldn't be distracted by the 255 pages in between, and would pick it right up.

To condense 4 pages to a paragraph, Constantine Huygens, the father of the mathematician Christiaan Huygens, was a secretary to the Prince of Orange. He had had some art training and painted a little, so he was given the duty of finding a court painter for his princes court. He didn't want just anyone, but someone who would make his Protestant prince look as princely as Rubens was making the Catholic princes look. When he discovered Rembrandt and Leivens, he thought he had found two such.

On page 267 we learn that the picture that impressed him was the one of Judas. And on. I'm with you in reading on. If Ginny's going to gallivant around Europe, she can't expect us to wait for her.

Gratifying as it undoubtedly is, I am still busy with the tail-end of our curling season,
and your call for me to return to the Rembrandt scene will have to wait another week

The Brier is over for another year. This time, the Alberta representatives did not win.
The popular Quebec rink won for their province for the first timefor 27 years. Tough
for Alberta, but good for Quebec, and even better for curling in Canada.

While I was in Regina, I managed to get to the game in which Quebec unexpectedly beat
Alberta. At the same time (as the Brier was running) I was involved in the "Friars' Briar" - - -
this is a Church-run bonspiel which is held in the Brier City each year. I curled on a rink
with a retired Lutheran pastor as Skip, an active Lutheran pastor as Third, and a young
Catholic priest as second. Being not actively involved in church matters, I was required
to play Lead. This was not hard to do, and I told my colleagues that "being without sin",
I could cheerfully cast the first stone!

More information can be found about the Friars' Briar at this site : -

http://www.friarsbriar.com

I will return to the Rembrandt fold in a week or so. Meanwhile I will continue to lurk.

Brian

P.S. The U.S. Women curlers have just relegated the Canadian girls to the Bronze Medal,
and tomorrow go against the Swedes, who won the Gold last year in the Womens World,
and will win either the Silver or Gold medal

P.P.S. I came home from the Friars' Briar with a Bronze medal.

Brian - Congratulations on your "Friars' Briar Bronze Medal" ! (That was cute what you said about casting the first stone.)

Another week and we should be nearing page 300 or so.

Brian, Congrats on taking home the bronze. Bravo! (Or whatever they say in curling.) And I agree with Emma Barb, the line about casting the first stone was very funny. All you needed was a rabbi on the team to have been truly eclectic.

Joan, Thank you for the summary of where Huygens fits into the picture. Now I get it.

Rich

I meant ecumenical, but eclectic fits too.

Rich

BRIAN: To quote Ginny: hhhhahahahahahaaaaaaa. Congratulations on your bronze. I'll bet you really had to watch your language when you missed!! (Of course, you are a perfect gentleman, and would never use bad language).

Good for the US women. Of course, they get no coverage here! But interest and skill is clearly growing.

Rembrandt's use of light is certainly interesting. I hadn't thought, before Schama mentioned it, that it doesn't really follow the laws of physics (R. would have been a lousy curler, if he didn't understand how light bounced off things). But never mind, it's certainly effective. What do you all think about the Judas painting?

JoanK ~ the talk about curling is interesting.
About the Judas painting, what page is that on please ?

Emmabarb: thank you for your tact. Yes, Judas should take center stage. I'll get the page no. as soon as I get the book (I have nowhere near the computer to keep it). But meanwhile, here is a much better picture of it:

JUDAS RETURNING THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER

The light Schama talks about is that hitting the hanging on the wall. There doesn't seem anywhere logical it could have come from.

I'm hoping for your analysis of the painting.

JoanK ~ thanks for the Judas link. I found the painting I was pretty sure you mentioned. As I've said before, the paintings included in the book are of poor quality....many too dark too...the actual paintings aren't that dark. I wondered about the hanging on the wall. The light is concentrated on the Bible on the table. Rembrandt was a master at every type of light. I like Rembrandt's painting of Judas trying to return the thirty pieces of silver but it's not one of his better works (my opinion until I'm able to see the actual painting if ever). Judas did hang himself as you no doubt recall...they found him hanging from a tree.
Prof. Schama mentions priests in the painting. I didn't think there were any priests in those days ?

Good point about the priests. Were they supposed to be rabbis, pagan priests, Roman officials?

The painting is on page 266 and the analysis goes from p265-267. Schama says the thing on the wall that is lighted up is a Torah shield? His quote from Huygens about the painting (P. 267) is very interesting. H. was fascinated by the figure of Judas, in torment, trying somehow to undo what he had done.

Ginny ~ Welcome back ! You've been missed. Can't wait to see some of your photographs after you get a chance to rest.

Emma

Thank you SO much our Emma, the first thing I'm going to do is order the Rembrandt DVD, I've got a lot of reading to do here and more than 1,200 posts in the Latin to catch up with, I hope I can actually do it, but I'll put up the new schedule in the morning.

Brian, a Bronze? I flashed thru that, your own team or Canada? Have pity on this jet lagged blur who flew right over your own territory on the way back and explain all!

Great job discussing, Everybody! I was proud of you as I looked in from overseas, but of course without the TOME could contribute nothing, maybe tomorrow!

I must say I am proud to be reading about Rembrandt, it's quite the rage in Europe: everywhere you go a new exhibit and much talk of it, I am glad to be in the swing of things, however jet lagged!

Glad to hear of your safe return, but don't kill yourself trying to catch up on everything all at once.
We can wait for the "new schedule" to get Rembrandt in sync again.

It was , indeed, a " bronze medal for Brian's team ", and I will cherish it for my remaining years.
Brian

- - - Final Draw has come to the U.S.

http://www.curling.ca/learn_to_curl/how_to_curl/flash.asp

Brian

Welcome, Ginny!!! Are you un-jet lagged yet?

We went a couple of pages past, and are studying the painting on p. 266. It's an interesting one, and I guess important to R. since it's what sparked Huygens' interest in him. More than sparked!! He compares it to the Aeneid in cultural significance. (Schama seems to think that Virgil founded Rome?!? Or am I misreading him?)

Thank you Joan K, (no am definitely NOT un jetlagged, as you will soon see). Appreciate your discussion here of Delilah, which mirrored my own confusion about the figures in the background, and I've learned something, too: I thought SHE cut off his hair, see below, loved the "unclean" bit about the toenails!

Rich, why why whyyyy Delilah, indeed! I MUST read up on this incident, see below! hahaaha

SEA Below!

EmmaBarb, you're the first person I have ever heard not in the Netherlands to mention Hans Memling!! He's got a super museum in Bruges, where, apparently he lived? It's quite fascinating, and some of his works are, too.

Great discussion here! Many many many congratulations, Brian!!! I am so proud of you all!

OK I'm back and I have extended, since you went on to 266, the heading here to reflect our new parameters, going thru 278 actually in the next week and my comments will today pertain to those pages.

Here's what jumps out at me after a Month With No Schama.

1. If you're going to talk about a painting in depth and you've already put a 700 page book together, anyway, why not spend the time to enlarge the painting so we can see what you're talking about?

2. For instance I had the devil's own time even finding Judas in the Repentant Judas Returning the 30 pieces of silver. But I did like the close up and your discussion of it. I did not know who he was, I can't SEE the details, and if Schama had not pointed him out, I'd have had no clue. Who is the soldier whom the light seems to fall on, is HE a priest? The light, Rembrandt's use of light, what do YOU see emphasized in that??

I thought, for my own part that the Old Testament does speak of "chief priests and scribes," but I did not know they wore military costume, or what IS that guy wearing? The light in this one confuses me.

3. I thought the full plate of Samson and Delilah on page 266 was super but apparently I need to read up on my Bible, who is the man with the sword? I thought Delilah cut the hair? The Liviens two are quite interesting by contrast, both the accomplices in that one have scissors. The first on the left of 262 seems to be saying not me, Sister, you do it, the second is bringing the scissors and there's a cute little shhh from Delilah, but Rembrandt's has no scissors (that I can see) and is quite emotional it seems and there is more than one soldier there as well. I think Samson's posture is quite poignant in the Rembrandt, he's trusting her and it seems (to me) that the soldiers are closing in for the kill In Edit: NO! I see you all saying that soldier was to gouge out his eyes, now I remember! which I don't remember to be the case (er....didn't he stand in the temple and bring it down on himself and them?), and it also seems to me she's not as guilty as she is in the Liviens?

What do you think about her guilt? Do you think Rembrandt makes her more or less guilty than the two others? She seems afraid of the guy with the sword.

I can't imagine cutting somebody's hair with a sword while they sleep.

4. Sentences like this make the jet lagged brain stagger: "The transparent luminosity he achieves, seems, simultaneously, to reveal the material texture of metals while paradoxically suggesting their insubstantiality." (page 265). Huh? I know what he's getting at, but jeez louise.

5. And I feel the same way about Schama. He makes a HUGE point in the section on how Rembrandt did not want to travel (along with was it Huygens?) (no, Rich, you're not at any disadvantage, we all feel that way confronted with Schama hahahaha) and see the work of other masters. He wanted to do his own thing. OK. But it's the contrast that Schama does WITH other treatments of the same themes and pieces by others that Rembrandt MUST have been familiar with, that Schama does manage to show what a genius Rembrandt WAS!! I find that ironic.

6. I think if Huygens saw hair torn out by the roots in the Judas painting on 266 then we probably need to try to figure out why. We can't, presented with what we have. I mean surely Huygens is more attuned to Rembrandt than Schama is or we ever will be? Maybe time has obscured this detail?

7. But I did like Schama's mentioning Rembrandt (that light again) of Judas in half light and half dark.

8. Yes Aeneas was considered to have founded Rome, on his return from Troy. This myth was extremely important to the Romans, since Aeneas himself was the son of a goddess, it meant that Rome had been divinely founded and it was not unusual for the Romans to claim (as Julius Caesar did) to be descended from him.

I am not sure what Schama means however by introducing that into the text? (page 268). Aeneas's achievement was not in transporting Troy to Italy??!!??

9. Now again, on pages 272 and 273, we see Rembrandt's different treatment of David Playing the harp to Saul. Isn't it amazing how different treatments translate into different feelings about the pieces? Which do you prefer, the Leyden or the Rembrandt and why??

What does the figure of Saul in each say to each of YOU?

10. The piece de resistance, however is the full page plate on page 278. I absolutely love that painting, just absolutely love it. Let's discuss it when we get there! Boy I love that. That's Paul facing us and Peter with his back to us. You know that the Romans' main problem with the early Christians was not one of dislike, but the Christians' refusal to worship the Emperor Deities. I expect you have read the letters to Tiberius asking what SHALL I do with these Christians and the reply. The Romans had hundreds of gods, gods from all over the place: Egyptian gods, Mithra, the Cult of the Bull, all existing peacefully in the Roman Empire, but the Christians would not adhere to worship of the Emperor God and that's what made them dangerous. Here Paul is entreating Peter, (wasn't Peter the favorite Disciple? Wasn't he the Rock on which the Church was built?) not to fall into custom, this time Jewish law, it's fascinating. I love this painting. I love the expressions, the emotion so well captured. Rembrandt does the elderly extremely well. Why is Peter's back to us?

What are your thoughts on anything up to and including page 278?

Thomas Hoving's new book Master Pieces, the Curator's Game, mentions Rembrandt only once, on page 133. After a long explanation of The Milkmaid by Vermeer, (which in person is the most staggering thing I have ever seen anywhere) he says:

To me the accepted works of Vermeer rival the best of Rembrandt. His mysterious paintings possess an uncanny and unique universality.

Hoving was heavily featured (remember we KNOW this man and have met with him) in last Thursday's USA Today, The Metrolopitan Museum of Art and the Euphronius Krater: an update with many thoughts by Thomas Hoving, Thursday March 30, 2006

I like his new book, even tho it has a painting some might consider soft porn (by his own admission, but that's Hoving, controversial as per!) I wish I had 1/1000000th of his knowledge and I'm very glad to see him still active.

What are YOUR thoughts on anything up to and including page 278?

I didn't sat S. thought Aeneas founded Rome, I said he thought Virgil founded Rome.

Interesting article. For Mystery story readers, there is a mystery "Murder at the Gardner" that makes the same point about the Gardner Museum in Boston: many of the things Mrs. Gardner bought were stolen.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post: bad jet lag, so sorry. I was going on what Schama had concluded about Huygen's comment:

Page 268:

Alluding to Virgil's Aeneid Huygens, going right over the top even for a classical poet, claims Rembrandt to have surpassed Aeneas's achievement in "transporting Troy...to Italy," that is [Schama's voice here] : in founding Rome!

I am not sure now WHO or WHAT I am reacting to, hahaha, but I am trying, sorry. It seems that it's Huygens who said he transported Troy to Italy which he did not certainly do, by any means, unless you consider his landing on the shores of Italy and appealing to Evander the Arcadian for help fighting off the natives founding Troy? And it seems to me anyway that it's Schama's conclusion that Aeneas founded Rome, which he did, Virgil being 686 years too late. But who KNOWS what Schama is saying? I'll reread your post.

I'm doing well to know who I am much less interpret Schama! hahaha

My mistake, not yours. Anyway, we agree that his reaction was over the top.

If anyone has been wondering what a torah shield is, here is a reference:

TORAH SHIELD

The "yad" refered to is a pointer used so that the reader can follow his place without touching the torah. This helps preserve it from the oils on skin.

In Edit: You're right, you certainly did NOT say Aeneas founded Rome! Jeepers! Maybe silence is my best defense for a while! hahahaa

That mystery sounds super, tho. I somehow got caught up for some reason yesterday in another mystery, on page 383, about the vandalism of one of Rembrandt's paintings and the nut case who threw acid on it and slashed it, for some reason that fascinated me, can't wait till we get THERE.

Thank you for the Torah Shield and explanation of the yad, just read about people needing gloves to read archives in the Vatican.

I was quite struck by the physical place holders in the Peter/ Paul painting, too. Really love that.

Ginny,

Let me join those welcoming you back. You certainly have not lost any of that special "Ginny" energy, have you? You've suddenly given us a lot to chew on.

So it's back to the book for me, and I'll be posting soon.

Rich

Why thank you Rich, and right back at 'cha, I have really (and I really did) enjoyed (tho you'd never know it from my comments) reading all of your remarks in here too, I like the special energy of this group!

hahaaa

The April issue of Smithsonian magazine has two articles you may find of interest...."Odyssey's End?: The Search for Ancient Ithaca" and Evildoer: Beowulf's monster Grendel.....an opera ?. Note: These open in a new window so you won't loose your place here.

I've been playing with a new cell phone adding some of my computer art and family photos in storage for wallpaper and some other interesting features.
Emma

Wish we still had an Edit tab so I could have just added this rather than a new post

In Rembrandt's painting showing the Apostle Peter in his prison cell in Jerusalem following his arrest by Herod's soldiers, clearly visible are two large keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and coincidentally suggesting the irony of his incarceration. As you well know St. Peter is traditionally thought to be Heaven's Gatekeeper, the solemn old man who sits at the pearly gates.
In the painting of "Two Old Men Disputing" there is no sign of "keys". Peter is seen in shadow from the rear, the attentive listener. Or is it Paul ? The old man in the chair looks to me a lot like Peter in the other painting. Prof Schama has me really confused with the Peter and Paul positions.

EMMA! Thank you so MUCH for the Odyssey!! I get the Smithsonian, where IS it, did this issue just come? My husband carefully saved magazines for me he thought I'd like to read, oh WHERE, we're JUST taking up Ulysses (Odysseus) in the 103 class, many thanks.

Oh do you think maybe Schama got it WRONG? What could it mean to have the light on Paul? I may have to do more research here!

NO keys?

!!??!!

Somebody help me, here.

I have not been able to follow your discussion of the founding of Rome. Virgil, Aeneas, Odysseus, and Troy somehow come into the picture (I gather that from the last several posts.), but my classical education is deficient, and I don't know what they have to do with the founding of Rome. I also don't understand where this relates to Sharma's comments.

Is it too long a story, and maybe I should be sent off to the library for some independent study, or can somebody get me up to speed in a few words?

Where do Romulus and Remus come into the picture? Myth only?

Rich

Ginny ~ Yes the April issue, it came here last week.
Those old men would sort of look alike if Rembrandt used his father as a model each time. But what's up with Peter and Paul .... editing errors or am I just confused

Did a Google search and came up with Founding of Rome...there is also a link to the twins "Romulus and Remus". This is mostly new to me and something I know I shall never remember. (All this from one little sentence in Schama's book.)

Oh dear, isn't the Internet marvelous.

Sorry, I'm with you, Rich, (and thank you Emma Barb for that article), apparently it was Huygens who said (bottom of 268, last paragraph).

Alluding to Virgil's Aeneid Huygens, going right over the top even for a classical poet, claims Rembrandt to have surpassed Aeneas's achievement in "transporting Troy …to Italy," that is in founding Rome!

Shades of Dan Brown.

Then Schama further interprets Huygens as believing that "It seemed to him of a piece with the salvation epic of his homeland, which was also rewriting history in so bold a fashion as to stagger the ancients and cry out for its own Homer, its own Virgil."

Ok, I have no earthly idea what these passages mean. First Huygens claims…Rembrandt surpassed Aeneas's achievement in Transporting Troy…to Italy. It might be a good thing to see what's missing in the ellipsis. Then Schama adds (for our clarification) "that is in founding Rome!"

Now to me an interpretation of the interpretation is needed. We know the Rembrandt story (or maybe the Rubens, Huygens, etc., story so far) and we know Aeneas's story, but I …

And then he seems to be saying that Huygens believed that Rembrandt might be the new Homer for their age. Do any of you understand the "salvation epic of his homeland" bit?

So! Thanks to Emma Barb's wonderful link we can see the alterations done to the Romulus and Remus myth in order to supply the gap left in the line of kings and to add (Virgil added him in his epic poem The Aeneid ) Aeneas's founding of…? Arrival in Italy?

Aeneas left Troy (in Turkey) after the Trojan War on orders of the gods, carrying his old father with him on his back. Since we're talking about art here, here's a rendition of that in stone, don't remember by whom

and there's a very famous one in sketch which I can't find.

Odysseus was another wandering hero who left Troy after the Trojan War, but who was not on the Trojan's side but the side of the Greeks and he, too, wandered thru many exciting adventures (shown here in the cave of the Cyclops):

Odysseus hides under a sheep Greek Red Figured Vase 475 B.C. Odysseus eventually completed HIS Odyssey and returned to his wife Penelope, super story, the subject of the Odyssey by Homer 700 BC.

So what the founding of Rome has to do with any of this I have no idea, Huygens apparently was being enthusiastic and saying…er….

(It fascinates me that one of the places Aeneas is thought to have landed near what is now Rome or became Rome was near Fiumicino), I am not sure where that was but that's the name that the Leonardo da Vinci airport of Rome is known as, off to look up the town of Fiumicino (for no reason pertaining to this, just for the heck of it).

And I think Professor Schama knows more than I do, check THIS out!

Virgil as we've said wrote his Aeneid for a reason. in 29-19 B.C. and according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature:

The poem is designed to celebrate the origin and growth of the Roman Empire, the achievements both of Rome and of Augustus. The groundwork is the legend of Aeneas, the Trojan hero, who survived the fall of Troy and after long wanderings, founded a Trojan settlement (Lavinium) in Latium in Italy, named after his Italian bride Lavinina and became through his Trojan son Iulus the ancestor of the gens Julia (Julius Caesar) and the founder of Alba Longa and ultimately of Rome. Virgil was still working on the poem when he died.

I guess because HE was Trojan that the settlement he founded was considered Trojan? Hmmm. But I'm thinking there was an old culture of Latium already there? Er?

BUT there was already a king there! Check out Emma Barb's link:

Latinus, the wise king of the Latins, hosted them and let them reorganize their life in Latium. Lavinia had been promised to Turnus, king of the Rutuli, but Latinus preferred to offer her to Aeneas; Turnus consequently declared war on Aeneas, resulting in Turnus' death and the capture of his people. Ascanius, the son of Aeneas, also known as Iulus, founded Albalonga and was the first in a long series of kings.

Was Jamestown considered another London? Maybe this is what Huygens really meant, he brought Troy to...Italy? By being Trojan?

Do you think THAT'S it? If so ...er....

Love the things that come up in this discussion!!!

Schama makes an interesting comparison.He says that artists of that period were expected to go to Italy to study the Greek and Roman statues, which were the standard of portraying the human body. Rembrandt wasn't interested, wisely. Classical artists were trying to portray an "ideal form" of human beauty. R would never be a classicist. Then he says this: while classical artists were trying to find the god in man, Rembrandt was trying to find the man in god.

What do you all think of that?

Here is a link to a larger version of the next R painting: again you can hardly see anything in the print in our book:

DAVID PLAYING THE HARP TO SAUL

Saul looks very familiar. Is he the man bending over in "Judas Returns the Thirty Pieces of Silver"?

Ginny ~ thank you so much for the sculpture of Aeneas carrying his old father with him on his back. I'd love to see that up close and personal.

One of my friends (a history buff) whom I trust about things like that said Romulus and Remus founded Rome. He said Virgil came along 300 years after that ..... hmmmmmm. He just got out of the hospital after being in there with pneumonia for four days. I didn't want to pick his brain too much on this.

JoanK ~ that's a much better image of Saul and David...thanks. Looks a bit like some of the paint had been removed.....through cleaning perhaps or may be a copy.

Ginny, Thanks for the synopsis of the various "founders of Rome" stories. Looks like everyone wants to take credit for the great city. When you add those stories to Schama's sometimes convoluted rhetoric, it's easy to get confused.

EmmaB, I agree with you. That sculpture of Aeneas is striking. It would be nice to have the opportunity to see it, as you say, "up close and personal." I still have not had a response to my petition to Senior Net for an expense paid excursion of this discussion group on an art tour of Europe. I'll keep watching the mail.

Rich

RICH: keep on watching the mail, but please don't hold your breath -- we need you.

Rich - I hope you get a response soon

Should I start packing my bag ?

We're all invited, right? We won't take much room??!!??

Especially you, Ginny, our discussion leader. Then wouldn't it be great if we could get Prof. Schama to accompany us, too.

Enjoyed the reference to Rembrandt's break with the theory that new aspiring painters needed to learn how to copy classical painters. In classical philosophy, Plato and Aristotle taught that art was to be a "visible approximation of a celestial idea." In other words, art should only show the ideal, more of the spirit than the flesh.

Rembrandt appeared to disagree with that philosophy. He gave Delilah dirty toenails, and portrayed David as a nervous adolescent playing the harp. (Compare that with the image of perfection shown by Michelangelo's portrayal of David in his famous statue.)

I like Shama's words here, "Throughout his career, Rembrandt was less interested in finding the god in the man than the man in the god."

Rich

Edit: Just noticed that Joan made that same point in an earlier post. (Pay attention, Richard!) What is it they say about great minds?

My apologies, Joan.

Rich

Rich - I'd be please to even get Prof. Schama to answer some of our questions.

He's back to Rubens again but very little about painting.

David was not only a great warrior but a musician and a poet.

I am accessing my injuries from a fall off a footstool in the bathroom changing a light bulb over the vanity.....ugh ! I know I'll have several bruises show up and soreness after having hit several parts of my anatomy including my head. The darn stool tipped over and down I went. Really feel stupid right about now.
Emma

Emma,

Too bad about the fall. Unfortunately, you will feel the aches more today than you did yesterday. But then the healing begins.

I had a similar experience yesterday. I was riding a bike. The bike stopped abruptly (gear shift malfunction) and I went over the handlebars. Before I hit the pavement, I thought to myself "What the **** am I doing riding a bicycle at my age?" The pain is worse today. But, as I said, then the healing begins.

Rich

WHAT? WHAT? YOU GUYS ARE FALLING?? Over bicycle handlebars and off stools? No no no, don't be doing that!!!!

jeepers. I hope you both feel better soon, jeepers!

Please feel better!!

I'm off tomorrow to visit my grandchildren. I'll be back the 20th, but will try to check in before that. Why, Why, isn't Schama smaller so I could take him with me.

Rich: yes, I thought that was a great quote. It kind of touches what I feel about many of R's paintings -- after you see them, you really feel that you know the people in them, that he has found the man (or woman) inside whatever persona he is painting. I think this is why, although classical statues take my breath away, I love Rembrandt.

Rich - oh no ! You have my sympathy.

Thanks for your concern. I'm not too happy sitting at the computer and the monitor light hurts my eyes. I'm sure I'm fine....just bruised body and ego.

JoanK ~ enjoy your visit with your grandchildren.

EmmaB, Hope you're feeling better, after your acrobatic performance. And without a net!

Reading these pages, I'm impressed with how much different religious affiliations affect the art of the time. In Catholic areas, paintings of religious subjects tended to be of "cathedral quality," majestically presented with lots of embellishments and regal imagery. In Protestant regions, paintings of religious subjects were expected to humanize the people and events.

I think Rubens was comfortable in the former, and Rembrandt thrived in the latter.

Rich

I hope you two are feeling better, where's our Brian, still out celebrating?

We need to move on today, 8 more pages but I really want to talk about that painging of Peter and Paul. In fact I want to put it in the Book Nook here in our Books, let me go scan it and bring it here, I really want to talk about it.

Meanwhile we can discuss anything up to and including 285! We're in curling distance of 300! hahaha

We're going to take Friday Saturday and Sunday here off and regroup here on Monday so that will give us a bit o time to read also. I hope if you celebrate Easter or are in the middle of Passover you have a fine one.

I am hanging in there (as they say). The only thing that really bothers me is my right foot, it is still swollen around the ankle.

I'm a bit disappointed there isn't more about painting in this book and less about history. But I've come to feel Prof. Schama knows an awful lot about history.

I wish everyone a Happy Passover and a Wonderful Easter.

Once again I didn't take Schama with me while traveling. I counted on you all to keep me up to date. Have you all been eaten by the Easter bunny? By the IRS?

There was an interesting article in the weekend NY Times. In Amsterdam there is an exhibition of Rembrandt and Caravaggio. The thesis is although the two never met and Rembrandt probably never saw any of Caravaggio's work, C's use of light and realism influenced R. Dutch followers of C copied his work and brought it to the Netherlands. The article shows each artists' rendering of "The Sacrifice of Abraham." I never realized the similarity.

Happy Spring everyone.

YES YES SUEC!! Thank you SO much! YES!!

So sorry, yes, and hello there our Joan K from the West Coast, you are right, let's get back on track! For me it's been the holiday AND the taxes but hopefully today we can move on, it's been something else.

And guess what I saw when I sat down yesterday waiting for dinner to be cooked? The very thing suec did! When Rembrandt Met Caravaggio, I nearly fell out of my chair!

And suec is so right! A antastic article COMPARING two depictions of the Sacrifice of Isaac. If there is any way you can get a print copy of this you really want one, the photos of the Caravaggio is huge, it's about 7x 9 and the article is absolutely super for what it does and what it does not do.

You've GOT to read this!

A Fresh Look at Rembrandt and Caravaggio in the Van Gogh Museum by Michael Kemmelman! Today you can see the illustrations but in a couple of days you'll have to pay for it and the illustrations will be gone! Don't miss it!

Here they are, note the differences, since we have been discussing this book, NOTE! We're right on top of this!!

Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence
One verion of "The Sacrifice of Abraham" by Caravaggio from 1603: click to enlarge

A 1635 "The Sacrifice of Abraham" by Rembrandt. Both are from "RembrandtCaravaggio," an exhibition organized by the Rijksmuseum but on view at the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam.

I would really like to discuss the points he makes here with our 278 pages of Schama behind us!!

Hey Sue,

Thanks for the story. So Rembrandt never saw Carravagio's work, but he was still influenced by Carravagio after seeing other Dutch painters who copied Carravagio's technique. Kind of complicated, but I think I get it. Interesting; being influenced by proxy!

Rich

Rich, we must talk about this article while we can still see it, I particularly would like your own view of it!

Perhaps THIS was the painting that Richard Tuttle was referring to in his discussion with Michael Kimmelman in the New York Times article.

I found it extremely interesting, and printed off the entire article to put in my copy of Rembrandt's Eyes.

Brian (done with curling for the season, and getting out the golf clubs).

suec ~ That's a wonderful article in the N.Y. Times, thanks so much for bringing it to us. I wish I could see the Exhibition for real. Why not Caravaggio and Rembrandt ? Even though Caravaggio died when Rembrandt was only 4, and supposedly Rembrandt never saw one of his paintings, I cannot believe there weren't any on loan or in print for him to see and admire.

Personally I like Rembrandt's painting better, especially beautiful when it's enlarged. His painting shows a more gentle man following his faith that he will not have to sacrifice his son.
I did not see the man perfectly centered in either painting Michael Kimmelman writes about ?

Emma

I'm struck, in looking at the two paintings, about the difference in...is it...what would you call it when Rembrandt covers the boy's face?

I agree EmmaBarb on the Rembrandt for the very reasons you express. When I first saw that I thought that was quite poignant, after all Abraham was not a homicidal maniac, this is his beloved son, he can't bear for him to SEE, that's how I took it, wouldn't any parent do the same? But still he feels he has to follow what he's been commanded. I am not seeing it as bending his neck back only for sacrifice, after all he is tied, but it might be that, what do you all think? I think he's trying to hide his eyes.

By contrast Caravaggio's is horrifying, it's violent and it's awful. It makes you think that Abraham is another...insane parent gone nuts, which of the two do YOU personally prefer and why? To me it does what Dan Brown says DaVinci did in some of his work: the opposite of what was intended, is that too strong? What are your thoughts?

Brian, so glad to have you back, put AWAY those golf clubs now! Hahahaa

Thank you for the Memling, I went to his museum in Bruges, never having a clue who he was, thinking he was some kind of second rate painter, he's not, is he? You keep hearing a lot about him, I need to go back.

I like that painting, and the hands and what the article says (I agree this must be the one) they portray!

I agree with EmmaBarb, I don't see ANYBODY perfectly centered in either painting, they must have cut the ends off?

Another thing I REALLY REALLY liked about the article was how well it fit in with what WE'RE doing here in this discussion, did you notice that? And the different approaches TO one or two works of art. As I said one year in the British Museum I saw two guys really arguing over an innocuous looking painting. Each one firmly espoused a completely different view, they were cheerfully letting it all hang out and they both had completely different ideas!!! It was wonderful. Had they provided chairs, I don't think I would ever have left!

We're up to page 278 and I still want to talk about Peter and Paul but have lost a long post with lots of illustrations in it, what struck you all in this passage, we're nearing 300! (I can't believe it!)

I'm still here, you guys. This morning I'm off to look at some very early art. We're taking a hike out into the desert to look at some prehistoric petroglyphs. It's not Rembrandt, or Rubens or Carravagio, but it is fascinating.

Hope I make it to the destination. My ribs still hurt from the "over the handlebars" trick on my bike.

Back soon.

Rich

Oh bring us a photo and stay OFF the bikes for a bit! Yikes! Be careful out there, we don't want to pick up the paper and see you in the headlines lost in the desert! Take lots of water! NO bikes!

The article states: " For Caravaggio, light was a divine power and theatrical agent, cast onto players acting on a darkened stage; for Rembrandt, it's a mysterious force emerging as if from inside his subjects."

That is certainly well illustrated in the two Abrahams. Interesting, for R it is Isaac, the innocent and passive victim that has a "mysterious force emerging" from inside.

Is this same use of light in his other paintings?

Both Carravagio and Rembrandt were well versed in the knowledge of the Bible, and their interpretations
of the story of Abraham being granted a son, late in life, may have coloured their eventual work.

I, for one, did not realize that Isaac was 30 years old at the time he was to have been "sacrificed".

http://www.picturesofsilver.com/Teachings/02genAbe4b.htm

This article by Dr Victor Wierwille goes into the biblical atory in great (but not always logical) detail.

Brian

I definitely believe from what I've read about Rembrandt that he was a very caring person as many of his paintings of the more common person shows.

Ginny ~ isn't it great we're nearing page 300. We've been studying this book (without the Professor present).

Rich - ouch on those handlebars. Your hike to the desert sounds interesting. Are you in a hiking group or into petroglyphs ?

Rembrandt was indeed a master in this technique of painting light and having the viewer look where he wanted them to.

Brian - thank you for that link. Nor did I realize Isaac was 30 years old at that time. How could that be ? Wasn't Abraham in his 90's ? Also a lad is usually a young person. Well I'm not real versed in these passages.

Well HECK here you are in here talking? I could not figure out WHY you were not talking about our new section? I wonder if something is wrong with my subscriptions?

That is a GREAT article, Brian, and an interesting interpretation of the words "burnt offering," I need to read more on this? Are there other interpretations? Where's the burning in these.. I need to read more here.

And I agree that it appears Rembrandt was well up on his scripture, don't you love the subtle differences in the two depictions? Even Schama says R's is more ...did he say emotional?

Is this the same son of Sarah, EmmaBarb, that was from her old age? Wasn't Sarah delivered in her old age of a son? But now that you mention it, a 30 year old son would be hard for a man that old TO sacrifice, I am now wondering about the first painting??!!?? The violence there. A 30 year old and an...90 year old are not matched? What are your thoughts here? Let's go read the original, Brian's link has it in it, too, and see if it sheds any light on this?

Rich, it's all your fault. I got out my son's Schwinn (did you know all Schwinn's have serial numbers on them that tell the month year and how many were made? Mine is from 1974 in August. It's being fixed up and I'm OFF, am tired of seeing people in Rembrandt's home town not to mention Memlings, not to mention Caesar's, passing me on bikes!

What about the light? None of you have said anything about the LIGHT? Why would the LIGHT be coming from Isaac?

hmmm?

Well hopefully SrNet is now back online and no more problems.

There were burnt offerings, meat offerings, peace offerings, among others. I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere.

Ginny ~ yes I believe so. Some say the servant's son was the one that was supposed to be sacrificed not Isaac who was born to the elderly Sarah and Abraham for the purpose of Faith. It's been so long since I've studied these things.

Rembrandt was not wholly devoted to self-effacement (writes Simon Schama). But he sure loved painting himself into his paintings didn't he ? Rubens painted 4 (?) portraits of himself and all were practically the same pose and likeness even as he aged. Rembrandt ? was it over 60 self-portraits he painted ?

We're approaching page 300...I'm getting my party hat out and ready

Well I've got MY hat but where is everybody? Is this the end??!! Should we strike the tent at 300 pages?

I sat down to eat lunch Thursday and immediately spilled mustard all over my shirt because guess HU was staring at me from the USA Today?

That's right, Simon Schama, "British historian," who has a new book out on Rough Crossings: Britain, the Slaves and the American Revolution

Nothing about art apparently but I've not read the book. It's amazing when you start reading something how MANY references to it turn up!

I'll be back in the morning with more from OUR Schama!

Ginny ~ I was beginning to think I was talking to myself

I think if we make it to page 300 or actually a little beyond that to complete Part Three we should celebrate.
Thanks for the info on USA Today and Schama's new book. You're so right Ginny about how amazing it is that so many references makes you more aware.

p. 304 - Prof. Schama is getting more poetic...some of this could be put into verse. Shakesperian ? Did Schama write a book on Shakespeare ?

pps. 308-309 is a map of Amsterdam (1649). It's not in English so maybe someone who has been there could point out some of it.

Emma

Yes, EmmaBarb, Rembrandt certainly loved to do self-portrits. I wonder why. I'm surprised the author doesn't attempt an explanation [maybe he did and I missed it].

300 pages, wow!! It's taking us as long to read the book as it took Schama to write it.

HO! HOld on there Emma, you're beyond page 300!! I need to catch up. I've put up to page 300 in the heading here so we can break out the party hats and now I need to run read that far.

hahaah suec, you have that right! hahaha Seems like it, huh and I see we're somewhat half way thru which in itself seems a miracle, how does the man have time to do anything else when he writes, one wonders?

At any rate, lemme read to page 300 and I'll be back, this section appears to be satisfyingly full of paintings (at last? Rembrandt?) hahaha

What a good point on WHY Rembrandt painted so many self portraits, and was self effacing at the same time, suec! I am not sure IF Schama said anything about it, and I am wondering, entre nous, if the overall impression we're getting is about ART or is about something else. When I look at the cover I can hardly believe we're discussing THAT, so steeped are we in Rubens and his political views, etc.

But let's read on, back in a sec (or two) back in a Schama sec! hahahaa

- - - and, from the lack of posting recently, I imagine some of the rest
of the gang are a little behind in their homework.

I will make a special effort to catch up, and read up to page 300 by the
week-end

Our weather forecast is talking about a touch of snow in the next few days
so I won't have the excuse of GOLF to hand in to the Group Leader, though
I might mention that the Edmonton Oilers have a chance to "put away" the
Detroit Red Wings in the battle for the Stanley Cup tonight.

Brian

YAY Brian, that makes 4 of us and our Rich I hope has survived the desert so on we go! Let's make a superior effort (and cast a thought for our Brian golfing in the snow) to catch up by this weekend, lots of paintings coming up!

- - - but beating Detroit 4 - 3 to oust them from the Stanley Cup means that the Oilers have to play at least another five games. Rembrandt may not see my EYES for a little while longer.

Brian

Ginny ~ oops I got ahead didn't I. Well I'll hold off a bit.
A big cake with 300 candles on it....get ready everyone

Is "Landscape and Memory" by Simon Schama in Shakespearean verse ? Have any of you read it ? Did Prof. Schama teach classes in Shakespearean verse-speaking ?
Emma

I'm still here, though quiet. Back when I've read to 300.

All right now Brian, NO excuses! One eyeball on the TV and one on us! hahahaa YOU have had quite a year!!

Joan K, THERE you are! Are you back where you can read the book then, good! We'll take this week to...what do you call it...decompress and then launch forward with our 300th page, I can't believe we've gotten this far!!

But do we need to send out a search party in the desert for Rich? No joke. Water? Helicopters?

EmmaBarb, no I have not read that one, if it IS poetry he's quite the Renaissance man, huh?

Since it's SPRING in Amsterdam I'll start my own thoughts when I catch up with some photos of their garden there!

Sorry, sorry, sorry for being away for so long. Had serious computer problems which I think have just been resolved. Will get back up to speed once I read the posts for the last two weeks or so.

Still have my library copy of "Rembrandt's Eyes."

Hope everyone is well and moving forward in our book.

Rich

Welcome back everyone !
You all will agree this book is not one you take along with you to read while waiting for something or other.

Ginny ~ will we get to see some of those garden photos (I hope).

Emma

Abslolutely, today! Welcome back, Rich! How was the desert? Did you see a mirage? I've only been thru the desert two times and it was a wonder, amazing, I thought, and the roads shimmer up like mirages, or so I thought.

As it's spring I thought you all might like to see the Keukenhof Gardens, just a little bit out of Rembrandt's Home Town, which I've just put up in the Rembrandt discussion.

This year the displays include Rembrandt's self-portrait at Keukenhof in bloom, May 2006

Keukenhof is really a paradise, if you like flowers: 7 MILLION tulips, 70 acres, 1,000 kinds of tulips, and a lot more. It's a lovely place to go, lots of nice places to eat, a festival atmosphere, stands selling Belgian Waffles, an old organ (steam? Pump?) sounding just like you hear in the old timey Merry Go Rounds, seats and paths among huge water features, Europe's largest fountain, a 700-tree labyrinth, and--for children--a "scavenger trail" and petting zoo. There are rare species and other exhibits in the pavilions; it's a festive and beautiful place.

You can read more about it here, on the official website, which, if this is not in English you can make it so with a button on the bottom: Keukenhof!

(I'd like to see that portrait of Rembrandt in flowers, if that's what they are saying!)

The beds are just breathtaking and almost beyond description.

I think I should have made these a little bigger, but you can get the gist.

And a couple more:

They also are having an orchid show, look at this:

6 May and 7 May orchid weekend. There is also a photo gallery with exquisite images of orchids, a well-stocked book stall, and even an orchid 'doctor' to advise you on the best way to grow orchids at home or in a greenhouse. Lovers of botanic orchids are not forgotten. There is a wide range of botanic orchids for sale and on show. Creative visitors will have the time of their life, embroidering orchids, making 3-D cards and painting ceramics.

Let's go??

Hahaha

Even Rembrandt might take spring off, back tomorrow with page 300!

Ginny,

Great photographs of the Keukenhof Gardens! Incredible color. Reminds me a little of Buchart Gardens (sp?) in Victoria BC.

You asked what the desert is like. I'm new to it , too. I moved here from by the ocean on the east coast. The desert is very much like the ocean. It's beautiful, and it's dangerous. It changes with the weather and the light. Like the ocean, it's filled with living things. I've taken pictures of a few of them with digital camera I just got. (Just learned how to send the digital pictures into my computer, but I'm not far along in the manual to figure how to send them.

)

Brian,

Good luck to you and the Edmonton Oilers. I watched the Oilers play a number of times at the Hartford Civic Center when they came to town to play the now defunct Hartford Whalers. Those were the days of the the old World Hockey Association. My son got so interested in hockey in those days that he became quite good at the game and ended up playing on his college hockey team. He still plays recreational men's hockey in LA, and says most of the guys he plays with are transplanted Canadians.

Hello, again, to Emma and Joan and everyone else. I promise to get back to Rembrandt, now that I have a computer, again.

Rich

Thank you, Rich! If you have been watching the flowers you may feel you ARE seeing a mirage, they have been shape shifting hahaha NOW there are 6, but they are not the original 6, still, we're in willing suspension of disbelief here! Since we are art involved now, I could not bear to have the "muddy path" one end either sequence and got all "muddled" up myself, I think they're straight now!!

Yes I love Buchart Gardens, too! I have never been there for the tulips, but they had one flower there, and I can't recall the name now, tall purple spikes, I simply could not believe for size, did not even recognize it, ours don't grow that LARGE, (they were over 6 feet) that's one fabulous garden.

From the ocean to the desert, huh? I'm impressed to hear you say they are both dangerous, I knew the ocean was! We will look forward to your photos! (You doubtless wrote Rembrandt in the sand, right? hhahaah)

Ginny, thanks for the Keukenhof Gardens. I do like flowers, garden paths, fountains and the like. Don't you love the shadow play from all the trees. I could do without the old organ music though. The place is truly beautiful. Of course one would expect lots of tulips in Holland. I'm ready, fire up the engines on the Jet

Rich - it's great you got your computer back. I drove through Death Valley and on to Las Vegas many years ago. I still have a couple of rocks I stopped to pick up that were sparkling like diamonds. One rock is etched by the sand storms.
Emma

Getting caught up, I'm surprised at how much religion dictated almost every aspect of people's lives in those days. Even in art, Catholics expected St. Peter (the first pope) to be portrayed in grandiose style, even in his crucifiction. Protestants wanted their subjects to be more reflective of common life. Rubens, in Catholic Utrecht, depicted St. Peter in an imperial style. Rembrandt, in Protestant Leiden, showed St. Peter as a pathetic old man in his "St. Peter in Prison" (p277).

I was not aware of the competing influences of different Christian faiths on art at Rembrandt's time, but it is made clear in the reading.

Rich

Emma, Those shiny rocks that you picked up and pocketed in Las Vegas because they looked like diamonds?.....They are diamonds! The Las Vegas police are still looking for you. I wouldn't go back there for a while if I were you.

Rich

Rich - Ohhhhh No ! please don't tell on me

Rich: yes, Shama's discussion of the influence of religion on art is one of the strongest memories I have from the first time I read this book.

Not only religion, but social background and class. In one of the galleries here, they displayed two pictures of Saint Peter, one by El Greco and one by Goya. The El Greco looked like a Spanish nobleman. The Goya looked like a Spanish peasant.

Yes, Rich, religion explains a lot. Thanks.

Sue and Joan,

I guess we're all influenced by our environment.

As an example, I always thought of Japanese landscape art as being highly stylized, but if you look at photographs of rural Japan, you notice that the roofs of old buildings ARE curved, the hills ARE short and craggy, and the branches of indigenous trees DO tend to extend from the trunks in parallel planes.

Rich

I wish Shama could say something outright!

I agree about being influenced by backgrounds but why on earth is Rembrandt's work so DARK? SO DARK!! His house is filled with light and color!!

Well here is the weekend and time for our Weekend Rembrandt Warriors to sally forth from the ….full fields of Schama's prose to see what, if anything they gleaned from this section, ending on and including page 300~

Congratulations!

We made it to page 300, somewhat broken and bowed, but nevertheless still HERE! Incredible!

It's amazing, really.

Now I am not sure I am agreeing with Schama here (dare I not?) This business about these last sketches, yes, they are different, sucking in the cheeks, puffing out the mouth) but isn't he just practicing expressions?

That's what I got out of them? Who better to practice on but himself??

What DID Rembrandt really look like? Schama says it wasn't like this? So what DID he look like? Do we have any portrait of him by another artist? (I hope that has not already been answered in the text!!)

That one with the startled eyes is on the sign hanging outside his house today as we have seen:

Schama says, "All gazes, all acts of staring, are, to some extent, trial expressions of strength, and we often assume that the more direct and unflinching the gaze the stronger the person behind it…" I totally disagree.

Staring to me, is the opposite, it's somebody who can't take IN what he sees and has no idea how to assimilate it, so he stares like a peasant at a king. I think Schama here is mixing up a firm gaze, doing that thing where the person who lowers his eyes first is the loser or weaker. I think STARING is a sign if weakness, in itself.

What do you think?

And then the issue of melancholy comes up and we have to ask ARE all brilliant artists of any kind sort of hindered with the artistic temperament? I see that Alec Baldwin has pounded on the walls and screamed because the temperature of the theater was not comfortable for him. He seems to be talked about as a man with serious anger management problems, are all artists naturally this way or is it something they feel they can get away with? What are your thoughts on the "artistic temperament?" The ARTISTE with an E?

I do like Schama's (very long and very profuse) take on Rembrandt at the elevation of the cross, and I agree with it. What do you all think?

I was, however, interested in the top of page 296 in the paperback edition, which says "much less the 'angry young man' who Kenneth Clark assumed appears in his early self portraits."

Kenneth Clark? The same Kenneth Clark of the book and series Civilization? Do you remember that one? It was fabulous. I've GOT the book, I'm going to go read what HE said. Schama disagrees here. This point, why Rembrandt seemed compelled to keep on reproducing himself in art: egomaniacal or otherwise, seems to be a huge issue here, sort of thrown over? Passed over. Are there any OTHER experts chiming in on it?

What do YOUR other readings say about this tendency of Rembrandt's? I'll read the Museum Guide, perhaps they will mention something about it. Those sketches sure look like studies in different expression to me, what do they look like to you?

What struck you in this section and/ or what do you want to talk about??

I have finally caught up (it's not SNOWING, but it's cold and it's RAINING !!). Tonight I want to see "The Picture of Dorian Gray" on the T.V.

Below is an excerpt from "A Corpus of Rembrandt Paintings IV -- The Self-Portraits" - - Wetering, Ernst van de (Ed.)

In Volume IV the focus lies on Rembrandt's self-portraits. During this research it became obvious that matters of authenticity cannot be viewed separately from questions relating to the original function and meaning of these works. Rembrandt's intriguing life-long practice of portraying himself in front of a mirror is examined in depth in this volume. As a result, not only has the group of approximately forty painted self-portraits gained transparency, but also new insights have been developed regarding Rembrandt's drawn and etched self-portraits.

The article goes on to suggest that many of R.s paintings were done by his students (even his self portraits !!) under his supervision

Ginny, I was also very much taken with Schama's handling of the "Competition" between Rembrandt and Lievens, while they both tried to outdo Rubens.

My lasting memory of the first three hundred pages will be the sentence with which Schama closed Page 294 in the hard copy edition of the book.

That said, Rembrandt was not wholly devoted to self-effacement.

Brian

Something I had mentioned before, but may be worth repeating at this time is the subject of Rembrandt's hands.

A few years ago I visited the Frick Museum, across from Central Park in NYC. A docent was leading a group, so I tagged along and listened.

One of Rembrandt's self portraits is on display in the permanent collection. The docent made a great deal about pointing out Rembrandt's hands in the painting. It seems that Rembrandt actually had small, delicate hands, about which he was a little self-conscious. The hands in the painting were large and almost gnarled- a manual laborer's hands. Apparently Rembrandt brushed in someone else's hands so that he would not have to display his own.

Rich

- - - from the Frick Museum - - - from the self-portrait

Brian

Thank you, Brian.

Ginny, Don't let Brian get away. Nobody finds (and posts) an image faster than he can.

Rich

A lot of the dark Rembrandt paintings in the book are dark because of poor quality reproduction. It's probable the actual paintings are much lighter (and of course better) but after close to 400-years some of the paints would have turned dark and some of the lighter pigments disappear altogether. Museums and collectors also can damage paintings and then not restore them properly. But you all already know that.

Congratulations everyone on 300 pages !

Ginny ~ I agree that those last sketches he was practicing expressions using himself as the model. I believe Rubens did a portrait of Rembrandt about the same time Rembrandt painted one of Rubens ?
Rembrandt's poor eyesight had a lot to do with what he saw and somewhere I read that his condition was an actual advantage to him over other artists.

I think a lot of artists are also actors or wantabes.

Rich - I'd read that before about Rembrandt's hands being small. The image of his hand Brian posted looks to me like he had average hands and long fingers (maybe even an older Rembrandt when it was painted).

I'm glad I've stuck with the book and plan to read it to the finish. Much thanks to the person responsible for the discussion on this book.
Emma

EMMA: thanks. I needed that. I feel like I dragged you all in and then didn't pull my weight.

I don't remember if you wonderful link-finders have done this, but here is a print of The Raising of the Cross where you can see Rembrandt the Executioner (with the artist's beret on). Do we agree that it's Rembrandt?

THE RAISING OF THE CROSS

I agree that Rembrandt was trying out expressions. He seems to have used himself as a guinea pig. But I also feel that he was trying out different roles or persona.

I read somewhere the reason there were a lot of religious paintings back then was because the churches had all the money.

p.304 is Rembrandt in oriental costume. Why did he sign the painting Rembrandt f ? He did love to try out different attire didn't he. The figure of him as an oriental potentate makes him look like a small man (I think). Does anyone know how tall he was ? Prof. Schama didn't mention who added the poodle in that painting later, all he said was it was added by another hand.

I tried to edit my previous message but I couldn't get access.

The man at Christ's feet is Rembrandt himself. I'd like to know the story behind the alteration of this commission. Since Rembrandt wasn't alive at the time of Christ's crucifixion why did he paint himself into the scene ? In the "Descent from the Cross" painting, Rembrandt is there again.

I like to think that Rembrandt had a good sense of humor. Alfred Hitchcock put himself in most (if not all) of his films, once as a person getting off a crowded bus as the hero of the story waited to board, or as just a man sitting on a park bench reading a newspaper as the plot swirled around him.

Hitchcock's self-inclusions in otherwise serious stories showed his tongue-in-cheek sense of humor, and I like to think that Rembrandt is sending us a glimpse of his.

Rich

I agree, EmmaBarb, thanks, Joan K for suggesting this book!

I agree, too, Rich, our Brian is a hand with those illustrations (not to make TOO lousy a pun!) hahaaha

Thanks to you all for making it go, it's unique I believe in our Books history!

But wasn't that common? To put in contemporary people in religious scenes? Didn't all the artists do that? I seem to remember Botticelli, he was always putting himself in paintings, didn't they put all sorts of people, Popes, Cardinals, prelates and themselves right SMACK in the middle of a famous religious scene? To honor them? Or to? Botticelli was in the late 1400's.

One that comes to mind is Botticelli's Adoration of the Magi 1475. There he is in the crowd (you can always tell Botticelli, he looks exactly like a young Donald Sutherland). As well in the crowd were Cosimo de Medici and his sons Piero and Giovanni, all "three of whom were dead by the time the picture was painted, represented as the three Magi and Lorenzo and Guiliamo de Medici as the princes or parsonages of higher rank standing before the files of couriers to left and right." (Lightbown's Botticelli: Life and Work) ,

There are others, too. It even says he attempted a little Flemish thing with his light in this one but they are not sure. Interesting. Let me read Kenneth Clark and get right back on Rembrandt's ego.

Unable, on my part, to get off the Hitchcock/Rembrandt analogy, here is a reference to Hitchcock's practice in "AOL Home town", an essay on classic films.

"Hitchcock's cameo appearances in his films are the visual equivalent of a signature. Hitchcock is a deeply visual director. These appearances perhaps constitute the real signing by Hitchcock of his films, rather than the verbal "directed by Alfred Hitchcock" that appears in the credits."

Isn't Rembrandt doing the same thing in many of his paintings?

Observation:- Only in SeniorNet's "Rembrandt's Eyes" discussion would you be likely to see Alfred Hitchcock and Rembrandt mentioned in the same sentence.

Rich

GINNY: "you can always tell Botticelli, he looks exactly like a young Donald Sutherland."

Sigh. I don't remember what Donald Sutherland looked like. But young Rembrandt looks like a young Gene Wilder.

hahaha I was hoping some of YOU would come up with the Botticelli but I have the full painting and a smaller detail of Donald..er...maybe a young Gene and I'll try to put it in tomorrow.

Is this the painting you mentioned Ginny? And if so, which is "David Sutherland" ?

You'll find all the information here : - http://www.wga.hu/support/list/index_b.html

Brian

Painting oneself in a painting is as good as a signature. Norman Rockwell was another painter that loved doing that....often he painted himself more than once in a painting.

JoanK ~ now you mention it, young Rembrandt does look like a young Gene Wilder....how about that.

Ginny ~ I'm not that familiar with Botticelli's art. I vaguely remember what Donald Sutherland looks like.
Here's one (insert) of Wilder looking a lot like Rembandt....maybe it's the hair.
Click here...had to post a link because of the copyright thing at that website and getting permission.

AHAAAAaaaaaaaaa I knew Brian would not be able to resist, and there it is in a circular form, which I love!

Honestly Brian, we can see who goes to the movies, it's DONALD Sutherland, pere (he of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, a must see).

But Emma BARB!!!!!! Good one on Wilder!! Good link! OH wow wow are you in for a treat! No Botticelli? No Primavera? YOU want to go immediately to the library and get Ronald LIghtbrown's

Botticelli Life and Work. It's absolutely GIGANTIC and huge and you will be arrested because you'll never return it!

Yes! He's a "leading scholar in the field of Renaissance Art." He was at the V&A, he's fabulous!

Ok here is about half the Adoration of the Magi in a clickable form, click on this and you'll see the larger one:

Adoration of the Magi 1481-82: Click to enlarge on a different screen!

And now…heere's Donald!

Bottom right, gold robe, looking at camera!

I could look at an enlargement of the horses in this thing for ever. Will put them in tomorrow!

- - - ? one of the Magi ???.

Brian

I'm a little behind you guys, but catching up fast.

Joan, I just got to the statement "Rembrandt was not wholly devoted to self effacement" (p294) which you quoted earlier, and I frankly did not understand at the time.

Now I understand what you, and the author, were getting at.

Talk about self-effacement, Rembrandt portrayed HIMSELF as Christ's executioner in his "Elevation of the Cross!" (p294) I guess I don't understand the psychology of early Calvinism, but to me it looks like self-effacement of the highest order.

On another subject, Prof. Schama did (and still does) dwell extensively on Rubens, but as he develops Rembrandt as a painter and as a person, I can see, now, that Rubens does work well as a foil to show where Rembrandt departs from convention.

Rich

Ginny ~ I've seen those images before but never thought about them being a Botticelli. That's the first I've seen the Primavera with Venus standing in the center. Spring-time and Venus come,......
I've seen the Three Graces many times. I'll put that Lightbrown book on my to read list, thanks. The man that looks like Sutherland ? Is that Sandro Botticelli ? Would you believe, my oldest grandson looks a lot like him when he needs a haircut.

Brian - I still enjoy the older Donald Sutherland's movies.

You'll love this book, EmmaBarb, because of the size of the art, the plates are breathtaking, you can't decide which one to reproduce here and Botticelli uses SO much color and detail that it's very very hard to keep it in the SN Graphics Posting Guidelines (in the heading as a link).

But here is another detail from the Adoration of the Magi,

Horses: Detail from Adoration of the Magi by Botticelli: click to enlarge on another screen

Do you see the metal on the reins of the horse on the right seeming to glitter as you pull the page down to scroll, online? Even when you hold the flat book in your hands, it seems to move and shine!

Rich I am going to agree with you, having looked at the Lightbown (it's LIghtbown, EmmaBarb and not …brown, sorry) that Schama has held his weight here, and kept us reading, still, do we REALLY need to know all this about Rubens?

What would you say if you had to write 5 facts of Ruben's life now?

Without looking?

Rich, and Joan K, I laughed at the "self effacement" throwaway remark Schama made, is that typical British understatement? hahaha

Talk about self-effacement, Rembrandt portrayed HIMSELF as Christ's executioner in his "Elevation of the Cross!" (p294) I guess I don't understand the psychology of early Calvinism, but to me it looks like self-effacement of the highest order.

But in this instance Rich, that's in keeping with the religious theory of the Crucifixion and how all mankind shared in the guilt there, that's a nice way to illustrate that, too: by putting himself in that place: they WERE quite up on their religious theory then, it appears.

Brian, I answered you and it has totally gone walkabout, yes, Donald Sutherland the Young, when HE was 28, exactly to the like. When you walk thru the Accademia in Venice you can see Donald...er...Botticelli, staring out at you from several works, sticks right out.

I like Donald Sutherland, too, EmmaBarb, in any of his days, I like his voice. Does your grandson know he looks like Botticelli? Is he artistic?

Well I see by the Olde Schedule in the Heading we're two days behind and we're actually to be on page 309, so will get that up and go happily read on and join you when the storms are over later on, we're to have storms the next few days, hopefully nothing like what went thru Texas yesterday, bless their hearts.

It wasn't me that caught that statement about self effacement, it was Brian. Good catch --- the understatement of the year.

Sorry, Brian and Joan. It was me (I?) who attributed the "self effacement" observation to Joan.

We'll get this all sorted out eventually, won't we?

Rich

Ginny ~ I will mentioned to my grandson that he looks like Botticelli (not sure he's even know who I was talking about) but I'll have to show him some of his paintings. I have some in some of the art books around here. Yes he has some artistic talent. He plays the guitar and writes his own songs. He also likes to draw which he loves showing me.
I've seen the Adoration of the Magi many times but never associated it with Botticelli. The detail of the horses is really clear (my brother who is no longer of this world) was always painting and drawing horses. He also worked with horses. I do see the shiny metal on the reins...some look like gems.
I wondered about that Lightbrown

Thanks for correcting me. Do you happen to have the ISBN # of that book...I'm probably going to have to order it to take a look at it.

I think I mentioned "Rembrandt was not wholly devoted to self-effacement...." way back but I was ahead on my reading.

EmmaB, You're just a woman ahead of her time. We knew that.

Rich

Sorry, Emma. I'm a woman behind my time.

Still working to catch up with the rest of you, and getting into the part about our hero "making faces." The book is more interesting here... Another reference to Rembrandt's eyes and the possible reason why he does not show his own, or, when showing them, often casts them in strong shadow.

Van Mander reminded students of the time that the eyes were the "mirrors of the soul." Was Rembrandt afraid to show us his soul?

Rich

Oh GOOD for you Rich with the EYES, I missed that, are you ahead, behind or where?

hahaha Well I KNOW I did not mention the understatement, but I DID see it in the book, does THAT count? Love this group!

EmmaBarb, yes, ISBN: 0-89659-931-0

back in a SEC, have we actually GOTTEN to the EYES theme??!!??

Ginny, Yes, about the eyes: P296. I'm still a little behind you folks but gaining.

Rich

I'm about 302, but had to go back to see what Schama was talking about. Just got to the painting of beggars. Even then, people made a distinction between "deserving poor" and "undeserving poor", the deserving ones being the people who look like us!

Rich - good question about the "mirrors of the soul."

Ginny ~ much thanks for the # for the Lightbown book. Maybe if when we finish this book Botticelli would be a good one to take up.....or would that be going backwards in time....hmmmmm. There were so many fine artists.

The pages are getting more poetic. I wonder if Prof. Schama took a break from his writing or if someone else was ghost writing for him.
Emma

Was too late to edit my post.
The epigraph from Paul Valery -- "We should apologize for daring to speak about painting" -- had me curious about Valery's warning. If you're curious about the French poet and critic click here. I just discovered the Paul Valéry(1871-1945) university and Simon Schama taught classes there. I wonder why Schama decided on this quote for his book ?
Emma

Thay was an interesting post, EmmaBarb - - - I was especially taken by the list of people who had influenced him (Valery) from Baudelaire to Verlaine. Most of his idols were baudy, drunkards or profligates - - - see ! I.am writing with Schama's pen already - - - I hope it's not catching.

Brian

I looked up the Lightbown book on Amazon, and used it's $54.00. A bit steep for my budget! I'll see if the library has it.

Brian - good job. Schama would be proud.

JoanK ~ that is a bit steep at that price for a used book for me too. It would have to be an exceptional book for me to buy it.

OK, maybe my momentum brought me a litle past where we were supposed to be, but I have to comment on the author's description of the city of Amsterdam during Rembrandt's time.

I felt that it was extremely well written, and, having read it, I have a very good feel for what it was like to live in that city at that time. Prof. Schama paints a vivid picture of Amsterdam through greatly detailed descriptions of how a visit to the city would affect each of your five senses (smell, hearing, taste, touch, and vision).

Enjoyable reading.

Rich

I'm afraid I am in the same boat as Rich. Not only have I caught up, but I also got caught up with the new chapter, and found myself at page #322 ! That has to be a first for me. Schama has finally woken me up instead of putting me to sleep. Roll on the rest of the book. Curiously, he translates the Latin tags for us, but not his use of the Dutch language. For those who have not already read the description of Amsterdam, I have done the translating for you (compliments of my search engine) - - - Reuk = scent or odor - - - Gehoor = audience or hearing - - - Smaak = flavor or taste - - - Gevoel = sentiment or feeling - - - and Gezicht = vision. I suppose if I had been really smart, I would have guessed.

Now , as an aside, I should mention that the Edmonton Oilers, having lost the first two games in the quest for the Stanley Cup in the Quarter Finals against San Jose, showed their spirit in winning their two home games. The first in triple overtime, and the second last night by a score of 6 -3, after twice being two goals down ( 2-0 and 3-1). GO OILERS GO!!!

Brian

Just want to let you folks know that I will be turning my computer off for a short while. Although I will be silent for a brief period, I will continue reading to stay up with all of you.

The reading is clearly getting more interesting.

Will talk with you all again, very soon.

Rich

Last night we beat St Jose (6 - 3) and now lead the series 3 to 2. If we win at home on Wednesday, we will go on to play the Anaheim Mighty Ducks in the Western semi-finals.

Brian (fingers crossed!)

Good luck. Brian (Joan-- toes crossed).

Brian - good luck from me too. I don't know any of the hockey teams so I'll cheer for the Edmonton Oilers ! Go Oilers !

We'll all cheer for the Oilers (this is the first discusion of Rembrant in history cheering for the Oilers) while we try to catch up with Rich who, I think, has desert fever, he's off again! I need to catch up with you all, I'm so excited to hear it has taken off here!!! I love Amsterdam, this should be fabulous, back eftsoons, hockey stick in hand.

(Brian do you realize you are pushing the envelope here? First curling, now hockey with a little golf sprinkled in?) I'm beginning to realize with YOU the "season" always is underway! hahaah and what better way to spend your time!

Go, Oilers!!! (what a name!) Brian has kept us on tenterhooks ever since we knew him and now we all know a bit about curling which we did not and are part of the excitement, I love that. What fun. Amsterdam awaits! And tomorrow we're to go to page 316!! I think I'll read on, you all are way ahead of me.

Adrienne has some photos of her trip to Amsterdam in the SeniorNet Photos Discussion. They started several days ago I believe. This URL should take you back click here....once there you may want to go back a few posts or just keep clicking next.

Lovely photos!!

I just watched the Movie "The Girl with the Pearl Earrings", because I wanted to see the pictures of Delft. I got distracted, and have no idea what happened in the movie, but the surroundings were interesting. They didn't make as much of them as I'd hoped.

Now I have to google Vermeer, and see if he was really such a jerk.

Brian - The Oilers won again didn't they.

JoanK ~ I never saw "The Girl with A Pearl Earring" but it's on my list of wants. I didn't remember the book portraying Jan Vermeer as a jerk. I wonder what Vermeer would think of that if he were alive today. If you want to learn more about this painting then click here.

They won (4 - 2) in front of their home crowd, and clinched a place in the Western Final.
They now play the Anaheim Mighty Ducks (who said that Oilers was a funny name?) for a chance
to play for the Stanley Cup. Once again, it will be a best of seven series, and it starts on Friday, in the Duck Pond.

GO OILERS GO !!!

Vermeer was no more of a jerk than any one else, and he sure could paint! Thanks for the link.

Brian.

GO, OILERS, GO!! Hockey fans tell me the Mighty Ducks get their name from a movie -- the hockey equivelant of "The Bad News Bears".

Thanks for the link. I'm glad I never read the book -- I believe writers of historical fiction have a responsibility to be as true to history as they can, for the reasons given in the link. Many more people will read/see the book/movie than ever read a biography of Vermeer and be influenced by it.

I said in another post that I preferred to read the book before seeing the movie. This is the one kind of exception. friends had told me the book was mediocre, so I hadn't planned to read it, but thought the pictorization of 17th century Holland might be worth seeing the movie. There were some interesting details of household life -- doing the laundry for example. One of many reasons to be glad we didn't live hundreds of years ago was the shear drudgery of housework for servants or those (the majority) who couldn't afford servants.

Another reason is the smells! I'm fascinated by Schama's presentation of the city to five senses. After 300 pages of the visual, he taunts us by putting sight last, and letting us experience it through the other senses. The smalls! the bells! I stopped at taste, because I realized I was hungry -- we'll see whether the book increases or decreases that.

........"thru the Amstel locks heading out into the muddy waters of IJ." IJmuiden (IJ is considered to be one letter and is pronounced as a long i, ui=ow as in cow, say the name Imowden, or so I read.) Click here if you care to read about some history of the Dutch Fort Island in the mouth of IJmuiden harbour.

Sorry sorry sorry, thank you ALL for your great remarks, I'm here and I'm going to put up on Thursday afternoon some of the illustrations of things mentioned in these pages. I went AHEAD and got to page 330 and am not as enamored of this writing as some are, but it DOES remind me of some of the Dutch paintings I have seen with so many figures and sausages and boats (do you all know what I mean?) and shops and stuff but I find myself very irritated, we're 300 pages into it (and almost 1,000 posts!!! YES!!!) but WHEN are we going to concentrate ON REMBRANDT? I see stuff coming up, I see him being described as cock of the walk but I mean WHEN WHEN WHEN? Or EVER? hahahaa

I'll be baaack, thank you Emma for that link to the Photos discussion, I can't load that thing but I know Amsterdam is a gorgeous place, I'll be baack. What would anybody like to say about this section?

EmmaBarb, thank you for that pronunciation of IJ (one of the most fun things for me this last trip was hearing j pronounced as in Reijks museum, or however they spell it, RIKES museum.

Love it.

And I love that old map. I like the description of three strands of pearls or necklaces in the old canals. I remember pouring over the map (which really does not look that much different) the first time I went, trying to figure out where everything is, I needn't have bothered.

I did like the descriptions of the steeples of the houses, they lean out so they can easily haul up stuff and I did like the explanations of the architecture, that IS well done. So I guess I liked it more than I thought! hahaha

Now this Ketel on page 330 is thought to have executed HIS portraits by his fingers!! Whoops I'm ahead. Well by only a couple of days.

I did like page 329 too and what a portrait supposedly said about hubris. He's getting into some good stuff here.

So let's push ahead to page 330? I did not notice that Rembrandt always made his scripts of books illegible? On purpose?

Now what is meant by these chapter titles in this section? What does HET mean? I suppose I should know this from reading it but I don't.

I loved hearing about the East India Company, those guys really got around. And did you like the invention of the glass fronted bookcase to keep fungus out? (page 313). Wouldn't that make it worse?

Love that map!! Can any of you pick out Rembrandt's house on it??!!??

What do YOU think of him portraying himself as a beggar?

And his fascination with the underclass?

Schama uses the word "phiz" on page 300. I have not seen that word in a LONG time.

What do you think? I'm ready to move on, this is romantic as befits Amsterdam, tho, but I want to read about the MAN here!

I thought it was only me. I have been reading ahead also, but have found it more interesting
than the earlier pages. Schama is making a much better job of analysing the paintings for us.

Perhaps I am seeing things through rosy spectacles because the Oilers are now within one win
of going to the Stanley Cup. If they win at home on Thursday against the Anaheim Mighty Ducks
they will be in the Stanley Cup final series.

GO OILERS GO !!. (and Go Schama Go !!)

Brian

I too want to move on, out of things I'm not interested in and back to "art".

Go Oilers !

Go. Oilers!!

Schama is long winded, and he never saw a side path that he didn't take, but when he is good, he is very very good (like the girl with the curl). I'll press on to page 300 tonight.

for those kind people who have been echoing my "GO OILERS GO !!"

You can catch a podcast of the game tomorrow (Thursday) night

http://www.edmontonoilers.com/

Brian

I searched but was unable to find Rembrandt's house on the map ?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=52.369219,4.901618&spn=0.008592,0.005932&t=k

Zoom in twice and click on "Hybrid"

Brian

Brian! Honestly! How DO you find these things? I am obsessed with what's on the left: from Torquay to Totnes. Hahaah I know how Torquay is pronounced (tor KEE) but (is that right?) but how about Totnes? Hahaha

For that you get a big GO OILERS! From me! Hahahaa

I am amazed! Which one is it? Amazing! Naturally I'm typing in the midst of a thunderstorm so am trying to stay on long enough to change the heading, thank you all for the feedback, yes, let's go on!

Let me know when you all get to page 330? I wish I could find Kenneth Clark's BOOK!!

I can't seem to see Jodenbreestraat and the thing has been downloading for 15 minutes, it has big grey blocks in it and it at one point got down to 5 pictures to download and then switched to 16 again. It's amazing, I am fascinated but WHERE is Jodenbreestraat?

Did you notice you can move the thing around? I wish tho that I had some points of reference..I'm going to go get my own map of Amsterdam, hold on.

OK this is no help this is worse than the other one but this one's from one of my guidebooks, the fabulous DK Amsterdam, love those things, and when you look at this, a map of current Amsterdam, you see a large sort of brown complex near the bottom?

Ok if you think of that large complex as the center of a clock face and you think of your clock hands as being about a little less than an inch long, and then you look up about inch on the screen from the complex to where the 12 would be on the clock and a little to the right, not IN the water but about where about 1 o'clock would be on a clock, you can see a small brown rectangle and THAT is Rembrandt's House! But I can't find it on this other map, I am perhaps magnifying too large? It won't let me copy it either? I am going nuts. I see Amstel, tho? AT first I did see a yellow marker as if somebody had done a highlighter in yellow and it made a circle but it did not seem to circle what we wanted.

Will that Google map show us our own houses?!?!? I am fascinated with it.

?? (They say map reading ability is the first thing to go, so don't be distressed) hahaaa What fun.

Since we here are about art, and I'm putting this up in the Latin and Books into Movie areas, it seems a shame, especially with this detailed explanation of what the artist was trying to do, that you should not see it too, I believe even if you have no interest in Roman history OR the DaVinci Code movie, you'll appreciate the explanation in the accompanying link.

1. If you go to see the movie the DaVinci Code, be alert for this painting as they run along the corridors of the Louvre, quite early on.

This is the famous Oath of the Horatii by Jacques-Louis David (1784)

Ullman Henry II says:

The painting is a "great example of classicist painting." In this picture the father of the triplet Horatian brothers (on the right) presents them with their swords to decide which city shall rule Latium—Rome or Alba. To the right huddle their mother and the sister (who was betrothed to one of the Curiatians), each fearful for her own reasons of the outcome.

The Horatii , according to Roman legend, lived in the reign of Tulus Hostilius in the 7th century BC. There was a struggle between Rome and Alba Longa (in Latium) and this was decided by the

…single combats of three Roman brothers, the Horatii, against three Latin brothers, the Curiatii. Two of the former were killed but the survivor killed the three latter. As he returned to Rome he met his sister weeping for the death of one of the Curiatii, whom she was to marry. He stabbed her to death, was tried for murder and eventually acquitted on appeal to the people.

(OCCL)

For a larger view of this very famous painting and an in-depth of what the artist was trying to do and more about the painting view The Oath of the Horatii, when it flashes by (they actually spend a second or two on it) you'll know what it was!

2. You won't have any trouble noticing that the killer monk Silas speaks only in Latin and they only speak to him in Latin on the phone, in case you wonder what language he is speaking, and the pronunciation veered toward the Classical Latin, which in itself is interesting.