Seabiscuit ~ Laura Hillenbrand ~ 5/02 ~ Nonfictio Export

" Seabiscuit was an unlikely champion. "

SEABISCUIT
An American Legend

~ by Laura Hillenbrand ~

He was a rough-hewn, undersized horse with a sad little tail and knees that wouldn't straighten all the way. At a gallop, he jabbed one foreleg sideways, as if he were swatting flies. For two years, he fought his trainers and floundered at the lowest level of racing, misunderstood and mishandled, before his dormant talent was discovered......Competing in the cruelest years of the Depression, the rags-to-riches horse emerged as an American cultural icon, drawing an immense and fanatical following, inspiring an avalanche of merchandising, and establishing himself as the single biggest newsmaker of 1938 - - receiving more coverage than FDR or Hitler.- From the Publisher

EVERYONE IS WELCOME!

Don't miss this book

~ Resource Links ~

Seabiscuit Online
National Racing Museum
Seabiscuit in NRM
Thoroughbred Gallery
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DISCUSSION SCHEDULE

Dates	Sections
May 1st	Chapters 1 - 6
May 9th	Chapters 7 - 12
May 17th	Chapters 13 - 19
May 25th	Chapters 20 - 23

Ella or Tiger Tom ~

Click on the link below
to buy the book

Click box to suggest books
for future discussion!

DO YOU LIKE HORSES? HORSE RACING?

You don't need to have liked either to appreciate a good book about one and the period of our history that we have not touched on lately in our BOOKS - the depression! Some of us remember it, or its impact on our families.

Read all about it here - be sure to check out those 5-star reviews!

Seabiscuit

If three or more are interested in reading and discussing this book, please post here and we will schedule a time convenient to all!

Saddle me up,Ella. This book is a real winner.

I am into horseracing, the breeding, raising and racing angle. I rather be reading about Secretariat but Seabiscuit is a nice second choice. I have never joined a literary discussion, however.

How long do we have to get the book?

WELCOME MARTEX! Did you read this review by the author of a book about Secretariat!

"Laura Hillenbrand has written one of the best sports biographies in the history of the genre. Prodigiously reported, beautifully crafted and touched throughout with lyrical grace, the book is a marvelous narrative of non-fiction that reads like a novel. From the starting gate to the wire, Seabiscuit is one memorable read." —(William Nack, author of Secretariat: The Making of a Champion) —William Nack

We need you in this discussion if you are into raising horses and our book discussions are just people sitting around a big table talking! I know you can imagine that easily and there is nothing more fun than that!

Do join us! The paperback book will be out in March, but I have an idea you will be able to get this book at your public library by now.

I think we will be scheduling it for the lst of May, if that is agreeable to all who are interested!

HELLO ED! I was hoping you would see this as it was your suggestion that we discuss it! Thanks for giving me the idea!

No, I haven't read the book about Secretariat, but I think I will put it on my list. I was an avid reader in my younger days but in the last few years due to eye problems, I have quit reading. However, now I have had eye surgery and it looks hopeful that my reading career can resume.

I see that the paperback edition of Seabiscuit will be out at the end of March. So, I will purchase that one and look forward to the discussion starting in May.

My breeding days and raising of horses are now over but I still have two TB broodmares and two horses at the racetrack. My health and age has made me give up the 20 plus horses I had. I recently parted with my last stud horse, whom I loved dearly, but I can't make myself part with the two broodmares yet. I always wanted to have another secretariat but it didn't happen. The last stud horse I parted with had strong Secretariat bloodlines but no Secretariat for me. Oh well...I am sorry I have rambled on so..See you later.

Oh, good, Martex! We will be looking forward to your input in the discussion in May - now I'm going to show my ignorance and why we need you - what is a "TB" broodmare? I love learning new stuff like this. TB used to mean tuberculosis when I was young, but I doubt if that is what you are referring to.

I realized afterwards that I typed in March - I meant to say THIS MONTH - THIS MARCH! But you caught on to what I meant. Somedays I do nothing but make mistakes!

A TB is a thoroughbred. A broodmare I am sure you know but just in case, it is the female horses kept for reproducing. In my case, they were horses I acquired as broodmares and/or their daughters. The two I have left are mother and daughter, both ex-race horses .

know nothing about horses, broodmares (maybe I could have figured that out!) hahaha.

Oh, I look forward to hearing about your experiences.

Thanks!

ELLA, I am so looking forward to this discussion so count me in as I have subscribed.

MARTEX, So glad to see you here and will be looking forward to your posts. Please remember to Subcribe.

Ginger

GINGER WELCOME!

Do you know much about horses? I have been at a racetrack a few times and we had fun just playing the favorites; we tried to win enough to pay for our dinner there and our parking fee and we usually did. Paltry sums, but I don't like giving money to others that we have worked hard for. However, I loved watching the horses, they are so beautiful.

Now who will make it 4 - we need another person in here????

Ella - I've ordered the book from Half.Com and am looking forward to reading it. I'm not much of a poster - just like to lurk. I guess I use the rest of you to discover good books - and I've not been disappointed. Just wanted you to know that there really is a fourth. Harper

Harper hi there I mostly lurk also but this book drew me in. Good to see you posting.

Ella, I carried newspaper on horse back when young and did horse shows. Liked the race tracks and spent to much but enjoyed it. I bet 2 dollars on the feld horses one year, my bookie said it was throwing my money away and laughed at me, Guess what yep a field horse won and I won around a $100.00 that day. Can't remember if it was the Kentucky Derby or one of the other three. Yes I love horses.

Ginger

HARPER, YOU ARE SO WELCOME!

What did you pay for the book at Half.com? And you must not just LURK - POST, POST, POST!! We all want to hear from you, it's so much more fun to join in so we can have a dialogue among ourselves. Looking forward to you doing just that!

And, GINGER, Heavens! I've never heard of carrying newspaper on horseback!!!! My husband - well, lots of folks I've known through the years carried papers, but by walking or riding a bicycle, so your horseback-riding days are unique!! Can't wait to hear all about it.

Now, here I go again (I've never been afraid to show how stupid I am as you can tell) - what are "field" horses? As opposed to what???

The track we used to go to had harness racing only - still does! Have you been to the Kentucky Derby?

WHO WILL MAKE IT FIVE - 5??????? ANYONE, please speak up!

Ella -

Paid $15 for the book. I've gotten really good books for hardly anything there. For instance, I paid $.75 for Revolutionary Road. I loved that book and have thoroughly enjoyed the discussions - Wow, such intelligent people. Things that I thought and felt, but would find difficult to articulate. (I love to lurk.)

I know nothing about horses. My daughter has one and, frankly, I wonder why. I've been to one race and I really had a good time, but have never been back. Wonder why about that, too. I think I gave myself $20 to spend and when I lost it, I went home.

Ginger and Ella, thanks for the warm welcome. I'm looking forward to Ginger's story, too.

Harper

Harper and Ella, Scout, That was my horses name, he was a western paint, I wanted a horse and Dad said get a job so you can feed him and I will get you one saddle and all so I delivered newspapers right here in this neiborhood in 1947, We put spiked shoes on him in the winter so he would not slip. Scout was a good ole boy and I just loved him and he would kneel for me on gentle hand signals and he learned to get in the right place so I could put the paper in the proper box and that made him a good trail horse to enter into the horse shows. We won ribbons.

I like the smell of horses even at the track.

Ginger

Ella, A field horse is a group of horse that are in the race but not favorites to win but I bet the field horses or horse as I did not know what I was doing just playing a hunch. Mom's horse won second so we both won as she placed the bet to show.

Can someone, Martex, maybe you can help here please what field horse in the 60's won the preakness, Belmont or Kentucky Derby? I have done a search and cannot find it so it is bothering me as this ole gray mare is not what she used to be. Smile.

HI ED.

Ginger

I would like to join the discussion. Is that OK? I am not sure how I should subscribe from here, maybe you could let me know. The only problem is that I might not be able to find the book in Australia. I am trying.

For many years I had a horse stud where we bred thoroughbreds and stock horses. My daughter and granddaughter now breed pintos and paints and a few ponies. So I have a real interest in horses and remember well the story of the great Seabiscuit.

Barbara S, It is so good to see another lover of horses here and pintos and paints are the thing to get into I am told at this time. I sure Loved mine. Email will follow.

WONDERFUL, BARBARA, AND WELCOME!

As of now, we will not be discussing the book until May lst - and that date is not firmed up yet!!!

But we will be letting everyone know very soon when the date of the discussion will be!

You do nothing, Barbara, just come here and we'll talk a bit about horses - I need to know something about them - I don't know a paint horse (what color? haha) from a pinto from a field from a TB!!!

But when the discussion begins, this folder will be moved to the CURRENT DISCUSSIONS and you will just subscribe to it.

It's easier, I believe, if you do not subscribe to anything in the Books, just scroll your way through them, because we are always changing our discussions around. However, other places on Seniornet stay put, so it is easy to subscribe to them.

See you all later! As you see, we're going to have a good time at the racetrack!!! I'll expect all of you to be in the lead - I doubt if they even let me start! haha

It looks like we are going to have a great group.

I forget already...I am bad about keeping notes and my memory is about 5 seconds long. For whoever asked about the field horse that won a triple crown race in the 60's. I haven't the slightest idea! LOL. I do have a book about the Kentucky Derby, so I will check it when I have time to see if there is any information there.

Use to have a paint horse named Ziggy. How I loved that horse. He is gone now, but he doesn't sound nearly as talented as the newspaper delivery transportation. That horse sounded like a small child's answer to a prayer.

I don't remember a Triple Crown winner in the the 60's... Citation in '48 and I think the next was Secretariat in '73... But I may be wrong...

EVERYONE: THANK YOU FOR THE WELCOME. I will be back to talk more about horses, one of my favourite subjects. In the meantime, Ella and Ginger please look at my family's web page. If you go to my page http://www.users.bigpond.com./sh.educ/ and click on the link to Vancouver Park Stud, I think that is the quickest way to get there. Even though they live in Victoria, a southern state, they called the stud Vancouver Park because my daughter lived in and around Vancouver for nearly 20 years and her daughter and son were brought up there.

I will return. lol.

Barbara

BARBARA, Loved your homepage and the Studs farm. Thanks.

PAT W. The horse that I bet on did Not win the Triple Crown but won one of the others, Belmont,Preakness but I can't remember which one. It was important and fun at the time But it was so long ago I forgot till this discussion.

Ginger

I wasn't commenting about a triple crown winner. Any of the three races, the Ky Derby, Preakness, and Belmont stakes are referred to as a triple crown race. I am sorry for your confusion. I should have been more clear.

Martex. Thanks for the explaination.

Ginger

Hi Martex, I am enjoying your posts etc. Thanks for them.

Ginger

Martex ... not your problem..I'm a bit dense today.. and it isn't even Monday..

You aren't dense. I have a hard time expressing myself. I am not a very good writer. I never seem to say what I am trying to say!!

Have you all purchased this book yet? Are we suppose to read it ahead of time or as we go along? I don't know how this works.

Well, I have been ill and then today all afternoon had a roofer here, so I am tired tonight. Going to bed. You all sleep well...

Martex .... Horse people ride horses... they don't express themselves that well. (except to horses.) I know from my own limitations...

My knees don't allow it anymore and I never really enjoyed it after my teen years. I like more the petting, grooming, and talking to them. LOL.

LOL With both of you.

I was going to bed an hour ago. LOL.

I sent you a picture of one of our stallions Glenlea Chilliwack, fondly known as Ben. Would you please publish it for me, I don't know how. Hugs Barbara

Barbara S, I am working on the Photo as I said in email.

Shall we say our book discussion of "SEABISCUIT" is on for May? If all of you agree we will move this up to the UPCOMING BOOK DISCUSSIONS.

One of you asked how and when we read the book. That's a good question and people do it differently. Some read the entire book before the discussion; however, we go at a slow pace and post a "discussion schedule" - usually a few chapters each week. We request that the participants stick to this schedule so that all can be talking about the same events and time period.

Some people would rather just wait and read those chapters that are posted in the schedule so they will be fresh in their mind for discussion.

The Discussion Leaders, on the other hand, will have read the entire book and then will reread those scheduled chapters and attempt to ask questions and stimulate conversation; but we are just participants like you and have no more knowledge (much less in my case) than anyone. We are there simply to guide the discussion.

Is May all right for everyone?

May is fine for me. I am still trying to find the book here. If I can't get one, or from Amazon, I will contribute in other ways. It might help if you could give me the name of the publisher.

Someone was asking about the difference between pinto and paint horses. As I understand it Paint is a breed, quarter horse type or thoroughbred blood lines. Mainly quarter horse - a solid thick set horse. Pinto is a colour bay/white, brown/white, chestnut/white, buckskin/white and even grey/white. A Pinto can be any breed, thoroughbred, pony, quarterhorse, saddlebred etc.

Someone will probably know more than me as I am no expert.

Thanks, Barbara, I'll wait until a couple more agree and then we will place the book discussion in the Upcoming Attractions for May lst.

I've ordered the book from Barnes & Noble online - I think it's $13 - something like that - paperback, although didn't someone previously say that they got a copy from Half. com. You might check there also.

Someone asked who the author was and it is Seabiscuit ~ by Laura Hillenbrand or was I dreaming it as I cannot find the question now?

Ella If I can get the book I will be here. Will go to Barnes & Nobles tomorrow or soon anyway.

I can't think of any problem with May. Looking forward to joining you all in this discussion.

I have found the book here and it is going to cost me $A50, roughly $US25. So I had better make the most of it.

Barbara

Thanks everyone, this discussion will be moved shortly to the folder with the title UPCOMING BOOK DISCUSSIONS and will be scheduled for May lst.

Did everyone find their way here? Don't read the book right away and then forget it all by the time we start our discussion or you'll just have to re-read it, which is all right, too, of course.

Meanwhile, I'm going to be working on a great header, full of lovely things, so check in now and then and take a peek!

I found it. Keep the light on and then we can find our way...

The book has just arrived in Australia and my bookstore ordered me one. I managed to get a paperback for $A20.95 as against $A49.95 for the hardback.

You are right about people reading in different ways. These days because I overlook so much in a one-reading, I find that if I read the book through and then read again in the discussion, the questions and different comments focuse my reading. I can't wait for the discussion to start.

Barbara

Sign me up, Ella! The book is really wonderful and it brought back many memories for me and my daughter who rode, trained, showed and exercised many different horses. Even had a winner at Churchill Downs once. Somewhere is a picture of the horse receiving his winnings. She was the exercise person for that horse. I did not learn how to ride until I was 40 and loved every minute of it. I don't ride anymore but would try it again if given a very gentle horse. After having a cutting horse try to rub me off on the barn wall, I am very reluctant!

WE HAVE OUR OFFICIAL HEADER ~ ISN'T IT BRIGHT AND PRETTY?

We can all read the links while we are waiting for our discussion to begin!

Don't miss that first one - SEABISCUIT ONLINE - WOW! Isn't that some technology! Fading in and out - crowds yelling! I have yet to see anything on the Internet that compares with that!

Ella,

Great!!!

I have reserved the Library copy of Seabiscuit. I am told that it will be available this week. Intend to read it and then reserve it for the Month of May so I can follow along chapter by chapter.

Tiger Tom

I am delighted to see that the book will be reviewed online in May. I bought a hardback copy off www.half.com for a reasonable price and quick delivery. Having read Walter Farley's BLACK STALLION series as a kid and loving it, makes me want to read Seabiscuit even more. I have always admired horses for their power and beauty. The first chapter hooked me.

Marilyngrace,

I am about half way through the Book and falling more and more in love with that Horse.

I like the Men around her too.

The Men and the Horse seem to sum up the Depression era: Tough people who kept going no matter what. No whining and no excuses.

Hillebrand writes very well. I particuarly liked her introduction of the main characters.

Tiger Tom

I am anxious to receive my book. I ordered it from Amazon and it should be here early next week. So, I gather that you, Marilyn and Tom, have started to read it.

Finished Seabiscuit last night.

Great book.

Tiger Tom

MARILYNGRACE AND MARTEX - WELCOME!

So glad you will be us - I'm just halfway through the book, reading others along with it, and I am delighted with what I've read. I find myself telling others about this and that in the book (probably boring friends to death, saying "did you know?")

Not only is it a great story about one horse, Seabiscuit, but it informs the reader that is ignorant (THAT'S ME) of horse racing. The information about the horses, the jockeys - wow! I would never have known such things, i.e. how to lose weight!!!! Hahaha

I would not recommend the methods they use, however!!

Eagerly looking forward to our discussion in May!

Hi, new member here. I absolutely love horses, practically grew up with them. Really looking forward to reading this and following along.

WELCOME SABRIEL!

As you can tell I'm in a colorful mood today - we are so happy you are joining us. We have a number of people knowledgeable about horses and I can't wait to ask all of you so many questions - such stupid questions! Perhaps I should know them, but I'm a city girl and know nothing about horses!

Can't wait until we all join in May lst! This is such a heart-warming story, so much to talk about!

You mustn't just follow along - YOU MUST POST YOUR COMMENTS!!!

How did you find us? If we knew how people found us we could recruit more possibly, always interested in how people found Seniornet and the Books!

I finished this book a few days ago and just absolutely loved it! I am delighted that it is a reading groups selection and will enjoy participating. Another group I'm with recently read it and I sent this in:

"Seabiscuit: An American Legend" by Laura Hillenbrand

Way back in 1938, when Roosevelt was president and the country was wondering if we would ever recover from the Great Depression; when Superman Comics hit the stands and we were trying to ignore the rising fascism in Europe; when The Adventures of Robin Hood won Best Picture while Jimmy Cagney, Betty Davis, and Spencer Tracy were the big stars, there came a 3 legged star to capture the imagination of the American public.

Because even if Joe DiMaggio and Lou Gehrig won the world series for the Yankees and "The War of the Worlds" horrified radio listeners and Pearl Buck and Thornton Wilder won Pulitzers, the winner of "most news items all year" was...

...out of the rear, overweighted and pulling to the rail, here comes .... "Seabiscuit," a rundown knobby-kneed race horse with the body of a bull, a heart of grit and an owner, trainer and riders who loved him, believed in him and rode him to record breaking honors. This is the biography of an underdog turned champion.

Seabiscuit's royal lineage wasn't doing anything for him in 1936 when San Francisco automobile millionaire Charles Howard bought him for $8,000 in a New York claiming race. Howard added a seemingly over-the-hill miracle trainer named Tom Smith and a downwardly mobile young jockey named Red Pollard. Together this unlikely team took hold of the underachieving steed, virtually abandoned by previous owners and trainers, and pulled off a total metamorphosis.

Howard, Smith and Pollard put Seabiscuit out on the road where he started to win race after race. Sports writers noticed, track owners noticed, bettors noticed, finally the public at large noticed. Howard was a P.R. genius, Smith was mysterious and Pollard was a wild card, the press ate it up. But fame and fortune were not in a straight line from day one. Set-backs abounded. Seabiscuit won race after race in 1937, he won the highest purse of the year, yet he was not named "Horse of the Year." The public watched even more.

Small scandals, intrigue and big bucks surrounded the horse and his owner. There were injuries, seemingly unfair rulings and bad weather. But Seabiscuit prevailed and rode again and won again... and again. Most race horses are about finishing up when they are 4 years old. Seabiscuit ran hard until he was 7. And it seemed like it was always as an underdog in some way or another.

This book grabbed me and is sticking. I am in awe of the trainer and the jockeys, I thrilled to read of the races, reading as fast as the horses were running. I cried, I danced, I laughed, I loved. But like all books, it had to end. So I'm remembering it in this way.

Yes, I recommend it.

Becky

Becky, What a beautiful post, you put your post in such a way I could feel all that you have felt. Thank You so much.

Thrilled, Ginger

I found the site by word of mouth. My college psychology class had a guest speaker who discussed gerontology and aging with us, and recommended we check out the site, namely the 'Books Discussion' as he is a discussion leader. Yes, I said college class.

As for recruiting, I don't know what to tell you. *chuckle* I don't know many young people my age read as much as I do. On a good month, I can read about a novel a week. I love to read!! Hopefully, this month coming up is a good one. Until next time!

SABRIEL - thank you so much for answering my question and, of course, now I am wondering who is the Discussion Leader that came to your college class? Was it a BOOKS Discussion Leader or a DL on another site here on Seniornet? We are very proud of all of our sites, of course, but I'm partial to the BOOKS as I read as much or more than you and have for most of my life - actually, since I first learned to read before I ever attended first grade.

We are so delighted to have a younger person join us - you are not the only one, there are several persons who are not "seniors" who love to discuss books with us. We do not discriminate as to age - haha - just simply love all readers!!!

A BIG HEARTY GOOD MORNING TO BEKKA AND GINGER and all our other participants in this discussion.

Hi, Sabriel! Glad to see you checking around in Senior Net for stuff that interests you. Tell your college class mates how active we "old fogeys" are!
Robby

P.S. And, of course, don't neglect us in "Story of Civilization."

AHA! It's our own ROBBY! Thanks for stopping by, Robby! I'll bet he was a great lecturer at your college, Sabriel - we think he's one of our best DL's here, of course!

Must tell you that my husband (who rarely reads a book), read "SEABISCUIT" and loved it. It's such a thrill for me to be discussing a book with him; he used to read but other pursuits have taken precedence in his retirement.

I bought the book Seabiscuit today and will be reading it.

I tell you something...wherever you go, there you are. There's just no escaping sometimes! Ha ha. It's good to be welcomed, I just got 'Seabiscuit' from the school library and I'm all set to go! Looking forward to talking with all of you.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE KENTUCKY DERBY!

DO YOU SEE THE SONG IN THE HEADING? JUST CLICK ON IT AND SING ALONG WITH ALL OF US AS WE DISCUSS THE DERBY!

Have you ever been to the Kentucky Derby? Is it as big nationally as it is in the Midwest?

Have you ever bet on the Derby? You can do it online I think!

Let's talk!

Ella,

Al I know of the Kentucky Derby is that horses run in it and the people drink Mint Julips (sp).

Tiger Tom

Hi Tom: Well, maybe we'll learn something through this experience! That's what it's about I think - learning from others! And we have some knowledgeable people that have posted here about horses.

Yesterday I found numerous sites on the Internet about the Derby and I put them in the heading - I recognized two horses - and that's amazing as I don't recall how or when I heard about them. Secretariat - that horse was BIG NEWS!!! And for some reason I recognized the name Citation - both past winners of the Derby!

Here is another link about Churchill Downs and the Derby that is interesting:

CHURCHILL DOWNS and its history

There is more on that site, but I found this paragraph to be fascinating and am wondering if black jockeys are more the exception today or are there as many as there are white jockeys? I'm very ignorant of the subject as you can see, but am hoping to be enlightened through this discussion.

""The track formally opened May 17, 1875 with four races scheduled. The winner of the first race was Bonaventure, however the winner of the day's featured race, the Kentucky Derby, was a three-year-old chestnut colt, Aristides. Owned by H.P. McGrath, Aristides was trained by and ridden by two African-Americans, Ansel Williamson and Oliver Lewis, respectively."

Ella,

Black Jockeys used to be the rule back when the Derby fist started.

Tiger Tom

I plead ignorance of who the contenders are this year. In years past, I never missed the Derby and I won't miss it this year, either. However, it has been a while since I have been really enthused about any of the contenders.

I generally stay home on Derby day. I am not much of a gambler and I can see more from my easy chair in front of the television than I can at the nearest simulcast site.

There have been many thrilling moments for me. I can still see Carl Natzger (sp) hugging his elderly lady owner when her horse, Unbridled, won. Anyway, I hope I remember the right horse. I also remember Secretariat most of all. A truly great horse, that made it look so easy.

You are right about the lack of black jockeys today. I know two and one of my favorite jockeys from the 80's at Aksarben was black. I don't have any idea why there are so few. I don't believe it is discrimination.

I have never been fond of girl jockeys. That is a personal discrimination of mine, I am afraid. Some of them are fairly good riders. I think Jockeys have the most dangerous job of any sports figure. They are small, lightweight but must be able to handle a l000 lb horse, while they weigh barely 100 lbs. They have to be one of the fittest and strongest athlete, no matter how "frail" looking they are.

My dream is to go to the Kentucky Derby someday. Not as a person having a horse in the race but as a spectator. It would have been nice to have owned a stakes horse, but I didn't and don't. I did have a dream once that I was in the winners circle at the Derby with a blaze faced bay horse...No one else. No trainer, no jockey. Just me and the horse. I looked like what you see if you watch the Derby and see the rich and famous. I actually had on a big hat and a lovely dress. In reality, I am a tee shirt and blue jean type of person. hahah.

HELLO MARTEX!

How fun to read about your dreams of the Kentucky Derby as either spectator or more wonderful as an owner! Have you been there before?

Hey, most of us will be at home watching the race and in blue jeans and shirts, that's my kind of person, comfortable is the only way to dress, but - well, I must be honest, I have rarely watched a Derby race; I've been aware of them from reading the media but had very little interest in horses.

This is all new to me and I want to learn something about horses and horse races - my curiousity, after reading SEABISCUIT, has been aroused and I have so many questions to ask of knowledgeable people such as yourself.

However, we acquired a friend about 20 years ago whose dream is to own a horse farm and breed horses. When he needs to get away from the pressures of his job and city living, he goes to Lexington for 3-4 days and explores all the horse barns, talks to people around them, watches auctions. It's very relaxing for him.

Isn't that interesting!

Never would I have thought of being around horses relaxing! My sister married a farmer and they had horses, cows, pigs at times - I wouldn't go out there in the barn or where the animals were, they frightened me! And my sister would laugh, well, she wasn't raised in the country either, but she had gotten used to them.

They are big animals and they run fast - the horses, that is, - the cows just stand quietly watching you and daring you to come close! My thoughts anyway.

GIRL JOCKEYS? I didn't know there was such a thing! But I should have as women have intruded (wrong word) into every field of endeavor.

Have you read the DERBY TIPS in the heading? Do they tell you anything - if you were a betting person, who would be your favorite?

I am hoping more people will come and tell us of their experience with the Kentucky Derby, where the sun shines bright on.........

That song reminds of being young with children and we went with friends twice to Bardstown, Kentucky to see the outdoor play of MY OLD KENTUCKY HOME and Stephen Foster - all his music was played and we enjoyed so much. They still have the play every year.

Do they still wear lovely clothes to the Derby? That's not considered passe? And drink mint juleps?

They still dress up and drink mint juleps.

If I were to bet, I always like to bet the jockey, Pat Day. I also like Jerry Bailey.

If I were to bet based on the trainer, D. Wayne Lucas is the big winner in the triple crown races. However, he has been rather "cold" in the last couple of years. I personally know Steve Asmussen and he has a good string of horses for Texas but I don't think he has a derby contender. He is a good trainer, though, and he wouldn't go there if he didn't think he had a shot at winning.

I have never been to the Derby. I really doubt if I ever will.

Your friend would find that a horse farm in reality is not relaxing. It was relaxing for me, too, until I got in the business. I am more or less just about out of the business now. Too much hard work unless you are young and healthy. I just sold my last stud horse so breeding here is over.

Does anyone know how many fillies have won the Ky. Derby? Not only girl jockeys but girl horses are a rarity.

Martex,

You are the expert on horses in these parts. But I thought fillies were fairly common in Races. I can remember being at the track with my Brother, who is a real rail bird, and some of the races were for fillies only. Might be wrong, that has been know to happen.

Tiger Tom

I don't mean that fillies aren't common at the races. I mean that fillies are rare in the Derby. There are few that have ran let alone won. At any of the triple crown races, they just don't run there.

I don't know about being an expert at all. I think there are a few here at seniornet that have been around horses all their lives. I haven't. I just got involved in 1987.

I have decided to read this book and have reserved it from our library. It will be an unusual topic for me as I love horses but do not like the racing industry.

We have had horses much like Seabiscuit. Pharlap was one although like many other things the Australians like to claim him. He met with a terrible end.

The breeding of racehorses is a big industry in this country and we have had some great successes. Cambridge is our main stud area.

Carolyn

Kiwi lady,

I have heard of Pharlap. Did that horse run in England? The name sounds familiar. I naver heard of the horse coming to a terrible end.

Tiger Tom

Pharlap was a great horse. I saw the movie about him several times and always weeped. Here is a website about him.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~basiced3/cup/pharlap.html

We also had Sir Tristram - big winner and sire of many other winners and now grandaddy to more. Have you heard of him?

Carolyn

Hello MARTEX!. You personally know a trainer? Did he work for you and do you still live on a horse farm? How do you get to be a trainer anyway? Is there a school for trainers or jockeys? Or do you just have to have experience with horses? Do owners audition jockeys or is it by word-of-mouth that you hear of trainers and jockeys?

And I was surprised that you just got involved in 1987 - was it to fulfill a dream like our friend? I will tell him what you said about a horse farm being hardwork; however I think he's aware of that as his father was a farmer and they had horses and other animals. Farm work is hard, too, but he left the farm for other fields of endeavors as an adult. I think his heart is still there though. Being your own boss on a farm cannot be duplicated too many places in the workforce.

WELCOME KIWI LADY FROM NEW ZEALAND! You'll love the story of SEABISCUIT and thanks for telling us all about your famous horse, Pharlap - he and Seabiscuit were from the same era, although I think Pharlap might have been from a younger decade; however, that race track in Mexico is mentioned in the book - quite a place! Wait until you read all about it!

I'm wondering if Pharlap is the only horse to cross the ocean? What a journey for a horse - did he get seasick I wonder. Don't laugh, that would be possible - and how many horses have crossed oceans and what did it cost to ship a horse? Mercy - and his heart is preserved in a museum! That is an amazing story - is there a book about him? You mentioned a movie -

Do all of you know that a movie about Seabiscuit is in the planning stage?

I hope more of our group will come in and tell us of their experiences with horses and what they know of the Kentucky Derby!

p.s. Hi to my partner, Tiger Tom!

No, Carolyn, I haven't heard of Sir Tristram. I would love to hear about him.

Ella...I know lots of trainers. The particular trainer I know that may have a horse in the Derby is from Texas. I raced in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico back in the 80's and I had some horses at his family's training center in Laredo, Tx.

How do you get a trainer? Mostly, I think from word of mouth but also, if you have the money, you pick one of the better ones to train and race your horse. If you are in the racing business, you soon learn who they are. Trainers charge on the average from $35/day per horse up to $100/day per horse.

How do you get to be a horse trainer? Usually by starting out working for one and learning all the time. Then you take a written and a barn test to show if you know the skills necessary. It is not too hard. There are some schools for trainers and jockeys, I believe, but I don't think too many from Texas go to those.

Do you audition the jockey? No, usually if he will gallop your horse in the morning, you will ask him to ride your horse. Also, some trainers have jockeys that work almost exclusively for them. If you have really good horses, you can get the best jockeys. If you have bad horses, it is hard to get a jockey. LOL.

Yes, I still live on a horse farm. However, I have only 2 broodmares now. Also, have two racehorses at the racetrack but they aren't much. I am not going to get rich with them.

Thank you so much, MARTEX for taking the time to answer all my questions - so interesting to know all that!

"If you have bad horses, it is hard to get a jockey." haha And a trainer, too, I would imagine, but don't give up hope for your horses at the racetrack - if you've read Seabiscuit you know he wasn't doing anything until the right people came along.

Are your horses thoroughbreds? Another question - can any horse race regardless of bloodlines? Well, I would think they could, but maybe at some of the better racetracks they only want the best!!! (talking to myself here).

But then horses have to qualify don't they? Tell us something about that? Who does the qualifying and when is it done? Or am I way off base here?

Storms coming, gotta get out of here.

You ask tough questions. LOL. I am not too sure I understand. Yes, I have thoroughbreds. I guess any horse that is a registered horse is allowed to race. In order to enter a race, a non starter has to have two official works...one of which has to be out of the gate. Since I am not a trainer, I don't know if there is any particular time they have to run these works in. I don't think so. After a horse has started in a race for the first time, he must have one work at least every 45 days. Now, that is the rules in Texas but I think they are standardized all over the USA.

Thoroughbreds race against thoroughbreds. Quarter horses race against quarter horses. Only exception that I am aware of...both quarter horses and thoroughbred horses can run in an 870 yd race. There are also races for appaloosa horses, paint horses, and arabians. I have only seen arabian races of these 3 breeds.

I don't think any race track can pick and choose what horse runs. All are eligible if they have the prerequisite two works. However, if a horse is lame or acts up in the gate, the horse can be scratched.

Ella,

Guess who is thick as two planks?

I was sent an offer to rejoin the History Book Club. I could choose three books for a buck per and one for $4.99. Among those books was SEABISCUIT. Did I take it? NO! I had the Library copy. I thought I could go down to the Library and check it out again for another 25 days and do it once more (allowed three (3) So imagine my surprise when the Librarian told me that there was a LINE waiting for the book. Not one person, but a line of them.

Since each person gets to check out the book for 25 days my turn to get it again will come up about Labor day or later.

MY face is RED and my head is hanging. Boy was I dumb. Thing is, I want the book to keep so I can read it again.

Hear of Mensa, well I am Densa.

Tom.

Dear Densa Tom:

You can buy the paperback for $13 and it's one of those big paperbacks with good printing - as large a printing as in the book. I bought one and have had requests from friends (I spread the word around when I've read a good book) for the book when I'm through with it, but I don't think they will want it after they see my underlining and notes in margins!

Wonder why a line at your library suddenly appeared for the book when you didn't have to wait before? Hmmmmm

Maybe they heard about the movie? Do you know when it's coming out? Or who is starring in it - besides the horse, that is!

There was an old movie made starring Shirley Temple that purportedly was also about Seabiscuit, know nothing about it though.

MARTEX - I promise I won't ask another question for at least five days! But how am to learn anything? Works? I presume that means qualifying time around a track? Never heard that expression, it's a whole 'nother world!

Ella,

I believe that the word has got out that this book is a very good read. That is why the line.

I am a hardback fan. So, I guess I will have to get it for a bit more than 13 Dollars. SIGH

Tiger Tom

I have been off the air for a while, taming my new Dell computer. Wonderful after my slow old dinosaur, but it does take some getting used to.

I have kept up with all the posts with great interest, but there are now too many for me to respond to. However, someone was asking about women jockeys. We have had a few good women jockeys, but several of them have had very bad accidents. Just recently a New Zealander who had been badly injured and then turned trainer won the Melbourne Cup with her mare Ethereal. It was a very romantic episode in the history of racing and I did hear that there will be a film made of the story.

The Melbourne Cup is an Australian national institution. About 3p.m. on the second Tuesday (or maybe it is the first Tuesday) in November, The Cup is run over the almost equivalent of 2 miles in Melbourne. The whole of Australia stops for the race and it is quite eerie. Not a sound is heard anywhere except for television and radio broadcasts. The race attracts runners from all over the world and has been won more often by horses either owned or bred in New Zealand. Australian bred horses tend to be sprinters and New Zealand horses, stayers.

I was looking over the winners of the Kentucky Derby a little while ago, and in 1940 a horse called Whirlaway won. I owned one of his fillies, called Whirlabar, except that she was a old mare with a foal at foot when I bought her. She only had one more foal that I called Whispering Jet. I think that Whirlaway must have come to Australia to stand at stud, I will have to check.

Looking forward to next week when we start our discussion.

Love to all Barbara

I too have reserved my book through my local library. So far it has not arrived on my local branch shelf. I would have thought it would have been on the shelf. Perhaps one of the book sellers has it featured on their web site. Just my luck!

Carolyn

I have been reading Seabiscuit and find it very well written and exciting. I can almost smell the horses, stalls etc. but sure feel the excitment. Reminds me of my younger days, my horse, and my days at the track. No wonder it is a best seller.

Ginger

Ella,

Guess who found Seabiscuit in Paperback at Nine dollars? Too good to pass up. I usually hold out for Hardback but in the interest of speed and the fact that I have blown my Book budget for the rest of the year this seemed to be the time to go for a paper back.

So, I will have book in hand for the start of our disucssion on Wednesday.

Tiger Tom

BARBARA, thanks so much for all that info about the Melbourne Cup! .

The whole country comes to a stop when the horse race is run? Good heavens!! What a race that is and now I'm wondering if the two miles is longer than the Derby or other racetracks in America.

Congrats on your new computer! I'm sticking to my old five-year old as it looks familiar and it works but I'm so out of date on programs that I know I'm missing much.

How about that lady jockey-turned trainer that just won the Melbourne with her mare!!!! Let's all pause a minute and clap for the emergence of women in another field!!! Oh, and you must let us know when the movie comes out!

KIWI LADY! Oh, dear, do try to get the book somewhere - did you ask your reference librarian about it? Perhaps they can get it from another library for you - or you can buy it from a web site - a good one is www.half.com, please try it! We do want you in our discussion, but most of all you will love this book!

GINGER! Am delighted you are with us with your knowledge of horses - THE ONLY PERSON WE KNOW OF THAT DELIVERED PAPERS ON HORSEBACK. You are wonderful! We are going to have a great discussion - more fun - and we'll get to know each other.

GOOD, TOM!. Is the paperback approximately 8x5 in size? And the print fairly easy to read? Hey, $9 - you beat me in price - did you get it online or at a book store. You must tell us - KIWI LADY may be able to get a copy also for that price.

Yes, indeed, folks, Wednesday will soon be upon us and Tom and I are both looking forward to talking with all of you and hearing about your life with horses! Or perhaps just your interest in the book - it's an amazing story because if one piece of it had not happened, SEABISCUIT would not have become a champion! A true story, an exciting story, a little bit of history that happens in the world now and then and becomes unforgettable!!

Ella,

I bought the book in Costco. Yes that is about the size of it (Pun) and the print is easy to read.

Starting to paw the ground waiting for the discussion to start.

Tiger Tom

Now, now, pawing the ground is a no no. Only bad mannered horses do that. You are allowed to neigh or whinney, even poke your tongue out when you are standing still. But NO frustrated PAWING. FOCL Barbara

The Melbourne Cup really is quite an occasion in this country. Millions of dollars are bet on the race and there are parties all over the country. The fashions are a highlight of the racecourse at Flemington which is a suburb of Melbourne. All the offices and other businesses are tuned in and yes, everything does stop. Of course there are people who don't believe in racing or betting, but even they will find it hard to escape the atmosphere.

The race was two miles before we went on to metric measurement and is now the rough equivalent in kilometers. It is longer than the Kentucky Derby which is think is about 1.5 miles.

I will look up the url for the Cup and post it here.

Looking forward to Wednesday. (Thursday here.)

Barbara

Here are two URLs for the Melbourne Cup, if anyone is interested.

http://www.melbournecup.com/

http://www.ozbird.com/melbourne_cup.htm

Thanks, Barbara, for those links - that last one is a lovely site with pretty pictures, but pray tell what is this:

The punters are ready, everybody is excited, and the Race is on!!

I'm so sorry to be so stupid, but do take pity on me and tell me what a punter is?

In America a punter is one who kicks a football for an extra point or a field goal.

Do notice the lovely banner this morning for our book discussion - those people do a wonderful job!

Barbara,

When a Tiger paws the ground it is ready to Charge. It paws to get its feet in better for Traction so when it takes off it doesn't slip.

Didn't know that only naughty horses pawed the ground. I guess I will stick to being a Tiger they are never naughty, deadly yes, but naughty no.

Tiger Tom

I sure want my horses to paw the ground when they are about to run a race. LOL.

Prancing!

I want to get into the discussion also, please.

I may not Paw or Charge, but I will PRANCE!

I've read the book more than once - love horses, however have only been a spectator at the track.

From reading the very good posts here so far, this sounds very interesting and informative.

Ella, a punter is either one who places a bet or the book maker who takes the bet--at least that's the way it is in England and Ireland. I'm not sure which is the punter. Barbara will probably be back soon to give you the true meaning. Sue

I remember reading all about this horse when I was a kid. My dad was a board printer in a horsebook in Reno Nevada. I kinda grew up with race horses in my head. I used to wash those boards in the early mornings before the races would start for the day. It paid $12 for a six day week. And the bartender (Norrie) would give me a silver dollar and a hard boiled egg every morning before I walked to school. I never wanted for much then as I was a pretty well heeled kid in 1954. My dad would get all the race lineups from a teletype and then actually use sable brushes and showcard paints to put the info for each race at each track (east and west)on lined blackboards that went up on the long wall of the book. He was paid very well for this because he was one of the best boardwriters in the country. His script was beautiful to look at but also easy to read, a difficult thing to do. I remember him telling me about Seabisquit and of course there were pictures of all the famous horses around the book. Horses like Man O War, Seabisquit, Citation Bold Ruler ah ...can't remember the others now. My father was also a very sought after handicapper and tout, catering to the likes of Harold Smith (Harolds Club) Frank Pappas, Pic Hobson, L ouis Primm and other casino owners in Reno. Memories memories!!!

Yes, SUE is almost right, I guess we have taken after England in lots of things, even racing. The punter is one who makes a bet. As well as the bookmaker, the punter can take a punt (bet) on our government run betting shop, the TAB. The bookmaker sets the odds before the race,so that you know how much you are going to collect if your horse wins. On the other hand the TAB calculates the odds when the bets are closed and when the race has begun, so you don't know until after the race, how much money you are getting for your dollar.

There is also the SP Bookie - Starting Price Bookie - someone who usually hangs around at the back of hotels and "runs a book". This of course is illegal and is not very common now that we have the TAB.

TIGER: HAHAHAHA - GOT U!!!

MARTEX: Interested in the pawing bit. I don't think we ever see a racehorse pawing - not at the start anyway. Maybe we have different starts. Here horses are locked into barriers and pawing would run the risk of injuring a foreleg. Do you have a barrier start or a line start? I am very much enjoying this discussion.

TIPIKDAVE: Loved your reminiscences. I can really relate to what you are talking about and remember the names of those horses well. I guess the name of our Phar Lap would also be remembered by you. He was another great horse and died in the US.

Hugs to all Barbara

WELCOME PRANCER! HAPPY TO HAVE YOU. Did you bring Dancer and Donder and Blitzen with you - no, no, it's horses we are discussing. Reindeer will keep a few months. You have read the book more than once and, therefore, you certainly qualify for our discussion - I wonder if Tom and I can keep up with you! I've only been a spectator also, so we can learn a lot from these experienced people we have with us.

THANK YOU, SUE, for that explanation - I marvel at all I am learning. I looked up the word "punter" in the dictionary before coming online and one of the descriptions for the word "punt" is to lay a bet against the bank. And, apparently, it's not just horse racing either, and what would a clerk in a store say if I told her I wanted to "punt" on this week's lotto! Would she think me blotto! Hahaha Actually I have never bet on the lotto - do any of you? The odds just sound horrendous. I've bet at the racetrack though a few times and I don't know a thing about horses.

HELLO TPIKDAVE! JOIN US. No, this book is not a reprint, actually it was just published last year, and you may be lucky enough to obtain a copy at your library if the line isn't too long. The book was on the NYTimes Bestseller List for six weeks last year and is wonderful! What an interesting profession your father had - a board printer! And he was good at it - how big were the boards? You said he used sable brushes, so he actually painted them? And a horsebook? They called the racetrack a "book?" Was there a racing season or was it all the year around in Reno? Fascinting stuff and I just read your "personal information" and Yes, you're crazy!!! Hahaha - What happened to Lucent, incidentally? Did they go under after you retired? Hahaha I know our stock in it went south.

HI BARBARA! The government-run betting is called THE TAB! How high can you run up your tab? Hahaha No, I do understand that, I'm sure as long as you can pay for your bet up front, you can bet as high as you like. We have those at our tracks also and I know they are government run, but whether it is at the state level, city or federal I don't know. I imagine they are run by the state.

Does anyone know about this online betting I've heard about? Who gets the profits from it? And will it be declared illegal someday? Any time the government (the USA) attempts to regulate the Internet in any way, there is such a wave of resistance against it that so far none have been successful that I know of. What do you think? How could they?

The first time we went to England we were riding on a bus and I kept seeing signs "Bookmaker" on lots of shops. I turned to my husband and said, boy they sure must read a lot here. He cracked up as, of course, the Bookmaker shops were off track betting shops.

Do any of you horse lovers read the Dick Francis novels? I've really enjoyed almost all of them. He was a steeple chase jockey prior to writing and his stories impress me as being very authentic to horses and race track. Sue

While I was stationed in London I would go into the Bookmakers shops on occasion. It was different in the mid-650's. At least in the shops I inhabited. One never knew what the odds were until after the race. Oh, they were posted right up until the start of the race but it wasn't until after the race that the final odds were posted. For some funny reason they always came out favoring the betting shop. I mean there is something fishy when a horse goes off at the start of the race 50-1 and finshes the race as odds on favorite paying even money.

Tiger Tom

(1949) The Story of Seabiscuit: Fictionalized account of the legendary race horse's training and triumphs. Shirley Temple, Barry Fitzgerald, Lon McAllister. D: David Butler. C 93m.

(coming) Universal Studios motion picture based on Seabiscuit: An American Legend is set to begin production in the coming months. Created by Larger Than Life Productions, the movie will be directed by Oscar nominee Gary Ross, writer of the critically acclaimed blockbusters "Big" and "Dave" and producer/writer/director of "Pleasantville." Ross, an avid racing enthusiast, is also serving as screenwriter on the film. Casting will be announced here soon; check back for details.

So who will play Charles, Smith, Red?

Becky

Interesting, Bekka. That should be some casting that will be of interest to us that read the book.

Tpikdave.. What an interesting life you must have had as a child. I know little about the gambling part of horseracing.

Barbara..No, I sure wouldn't want my horses to be pawing in the gate. Ones that do act up in the gate are sometimes scratched. But I do like the fact that on race night, the horses are aware that it is race night and they do start pawing and circling in their stalls, eager to go and run.

Also, have you never seen the saddling paddock. There are always a couple that act up somewhat. Sometimes they run their race right in the paddock and by the time they come out of the gate, they are finished. That is an example of too much "pawing".

A horse doesn't have to be trained to run. He knows how to do that. He does have to be trained to know how to stand in the gate, how to break, and run without impeding other horses and getting disqualified. A old horse that is a pro is all concentration. Most horses love to run. When they don't, there is nothing that will make them run. So, they do have some control over their performance.

My daughter used to "saddle up" our horses, but horses here are saddled up in their stalls before they go into the paddock. There they just walk around for a few minutes before they are mounted and then file out on to the track. But what a beautiful sight it is to see all those beautiful animals with glowing with good health and ready to run.

Occasionally you see a youngster playing up, but I have noticed of late years that the horses are mostly well behaved. Many of our top horses just quietly walk around, although often a youngster will play up.

There seems to be quite a trade now in the breeding industry. Mares from here go across to the UK and to the States to be served and in the off season in the north, stallions come here to stand at stud. Our breeding season is opposite to yours and foals cannot be born before August 1. (The horses' birthday.) It seems that a million dollars for a service is the going rate for a service to a top horse, and that is just for a service, not for a live foal.

I do go on. But you know what it is to be "talking horses"

Well, I did my first 6 chapters of Seabiscuit and I find it very interesting. For a while, I didn't seem to be getting anywhere reading. I found the first chapter somewhat tedious. Also, some times a character is thrown at me that I haven't connected with the story yet.

However, now that I have gotten to the horse part...the reading is picking up and I am much more interested. About the only time I have to read is late at night once I have gone to bed, so I have a hard time staying awake. It is a terrific read, I believe. I will offer my opinion again as I get farther into it.

TOMORROW WE START THE FIRST SIX CHAPTERS, DON'T BE LATE!

Sing your last song for MY OLD KENTUCKY HOME TONIGHT - look for the Coming Attraction in the heading tomorrow!

OK Ella - I'm ready

I sang it, I played it on the keyboard and fiddle! I even pranced~~~ See you tomorrow.

Thousands will be singing "MY OLD KENTUCKY HOME" on Saturday, Ella, just before the Kentucky Derby is run. According to the sports page in my newspaper, the TV coverage starts at 4:00 EDT. They usually spend at least 30, sometimes 45-50 minutes interviewing owners, trainers, jockeys, and giving backgrounds of the horses and stables. There was an article about Came Home, a horse that was not supposed to be in the Derby (too short, too muscular, mother was a sprinter, etc). He (think he's a he) has won 6 of 7 of the races he's been in. I don't know who the favorite is. I think last year Bob McNair's horse won (he was a classmate in college and went on to become one of our most famous and wealthy Alumni). Sue

I read the book, Seabiscuit, last summer and it has to be one of my favorites. I loaned it to my sister and she just returned it to me. I have always loved horses and real life stories, so this was a perfect read for me. I horseback rode a lot as a child and a teen-ager, but knew little about the life of a race horse until I read this book. I found it fascinating. I have been to the track a few times with friends, but am bored by the gambling aspect of it. I was always more interested in the horses. With the Kentucky Derby coming up I think I will reread the book.

The horsebook I refer to was the Reno Turf Club. It was owned by a character named Joe Hornstein and my dad had a love hate relationship with him for 10 years before moving into a different profession. My dad was the best I ever saw at printing boards. Of course it is all done electronically now, probably computer run. Joe's wife was a real firecracker of a redhead and one morning I looked up from my work to see her chasing him all over the book and screaming at him. She took off a spike heeled shoe and hit him in the head and they had to call an ambulance and haul him away. Seems he had been out carousing and did not go home the night before.

As for the blackboards, they were about 30 in. wide and 48in tall. The name of the track came first (east coast tracks had to be done early in the morning) and the condition of the track(muddy,dry,turf or dirt. Then the list of horses, their #,the jockey,his weight, etc. The odds were shown (and sometime changed) everything had to be totally legable. The races were called over a speaker via a "wire" and also ran on a tickertape. It was great fun. Those memories I have of this time in my life were stirred when I ran across this discussion. I hope I haven't broken the rules but when this started flowing out of the old memory banks it was hard to terminate. Being a kid in Reno was quite something in the 50's. Before this job, I also sold newpapers in Douglas Alley (the alley between the two main streets in downtown Reno). This alley had silver dollars imbedded in its surface. It was a heck of a place, I used to go into the bars to sell papers to drunks and deliberately shortchanged them on a regular basis. God forgive me I was 11yrs old or so.

ISN'T THIS GREAT FUN - ALL OF US TOGETHER WITH A COMMON INTEREST! - I LOVE YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE! THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING.

SUE - A few friends and myself will be watching the Derby and all you described come Saturday and would you place a bet on CAME HOME if you were a betting person? Here's what the DERBY TIP clickable above has to say about this horse:

"Probably the second choice in the Derby, second to only Harlan's Holiday. Many question his ability to go the distance, but the fact is, this horse has the heart of a champion. He's impeccably trained, getting stronger, and is first-class on the track. Can a horse who's won six of seven career starts and three in row keep that streak alive through the Kentucky Derby?"

A HEARTY WELCOME TO DENJER! WE'RE SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU JOIN USYou and I are alike as I didn't know a thing about race horses - hey, I didn't know anything about horses at all, and I don't care much for the betting thing either. The book was a grand introduction though and we're going learn more from these experienced people in the discussion - they know horses!

TPIKDAVEI just sent you off an email to tell you how fascinating the story of your father's profession and your boyhood was - unique! Tickled you told us, this is just the place to relive memories of your youth - we all do it! It's called A GOOD CONVERSATION! I've never been to Reno or Las Vegas but to states all around Nevada - are the silver dollars still in Douglas Alley? That would make a good song! Hahaha Loved your story! Get the book and join us!!! And may we call you Dave?

Ella, I like to see the whole field of horses as they get ready to go into the gate. I choose the one I think is best looking with a shiny coat, holding his tail up, is wearing the most attractive colors, etc. Needless to say, I don't make money at the track! Sue

Hahaha Sue - me, too! Do you suppose any of us has won at the track? And were they lucky or smart?

WELCOME EVERYONE, TODAY IS THE DAY WE BEGIN OUR BOOK DISCUSSION!

ISN'T THAT CAR ADORABLE! WOULDN'T YOU LOVE TO OWN IT?

It's typical of the cars that Charles Howard was selling!

Before we begin the discussion, may I ask you, please, to follow the schedule posted in the heading so that we may all be discussing the same time period and the same events together and, in this manner, we will not spoil the story for anyone else.

A few of you have already stated that you had heard of Seabiscuit before this book hit the best-seller's list - but many of us had not. After all, everything that is written in this book took place from 1936-1940, as Laura Hillenbrand (LH) says - "five uproarious years of anguish and exultation.."

It is clear right from the first page of this book that the author thinks Charles Howard is a "rare bird?" Listen to her adjectives here: tall, glowing man - spoke loud and long - quiet and kindly - an urgency about him - air of destiny about him - bounding imagination.

When I read that he began his career in the world as a bicycle mechanic, I thought it a poor business; really, what is there to fixing bicycles? I commented on that to my husband, who looked at me as if I was a third-grader and asked me if I had forgotten the two brothers who made flight possible for all those who came after started their careers in a bicycle shop? I knew, of course, of the Wright brothers, but still……..is there enough mechanics to a bicycle to warrant calling that a business? I mean the chain comes off now and then and the bike needs oiled and tires need pumped up - but what else?

In the Preface, LH states that during the depression, in an era when transportation was difficult, when the population of the country was not as great as today, Seabiscuit's appearances "drew two of the three largest throngs ever to see a horse race in the United States?" Isn't that amazing and how can we account for that? Certainly, we have larger tracks (or do we?) and larger seating capacities (or do we?) at present day race tracks.

Did you smile when you read that the automobile "was in practice a civic menace?" Isn't it still in different ways?

Were you aware that a car's "ACCESSORIES" were extra during this time?

later, ella

The few times I have been to the track, I always went down to the front and looked the field over when they trotted them around. I picked the winner, not by the shiniest coat or the best looking, but by something I guess you could call the spirit and the attitude of the horse. My husband used to laugh at me, but 8 out of 10 times I'd pick a winner. No matter how good a horse is, if he has a bad attitude, or is not in the mood to run that day, he does not have a good chance to win. That was why Seabiscuit was so special. He might have been put together all wrong for a race horse, but he had more heart then any horse on the track.

I think if I were betting on the Kentucky Derby, however I would place a bet just for the fun of it on the horse with the longest odds Maybe - "Castle Gandolf".

All,

Well, we are off and running.

I don't know about you all, but I liked the first six chapters of this book. I think that the author did a great job of introducing the main characters of the book. It made me want to know them better.

Tiger Tom

My husband loves horses and enjoys horse books. Do you recommend this one after reading the first few chapters?

Kwille,

YES, YES, and again, YES

Your Husband will like the Humans and adore the Horse.

Tiger Tom

WHOO - BOY!!! SOLE DISTRIBUTION OF BUICK SALES IN THE WESTERN USA! Why, it boggles the mind!!!

But, bless his heart, Charles Howard did good things with his newly made fortune! And he married Marcela, a young woman 27 years his junior - now that would make any middle-aged man's heart beat a little faster, wouldn't you say?

Ever been to Tijuana? Can you tell us what it is like today? Probably not the "road to hell" it was in the early 1920's during the height of Prohibition in America.

Being intrigued by Bing Crosby's involvement in the Santa Anita racetrack, I searched the Internet and first found this (dated in 2000):

Save Santa Anita

LATER - EG

How is a book discussion suppose to be conducted? This is my first one. Are we suppose to just discuss the first chapter today and then the 2nd chapter tomorrow? Please explain.

I had a hard time with the first chapter. I didn't find it all that interesting about Mr. Howard. He just didn't come alive for me. I kept just wanting to read about the horse.

Also, the fact that it is the first book I have read in a long time due to cataracts. I have recently had cataract surgery but eyes could still be better, so it is a struggle. So I want to be entertained and chapter one didn't do it. LOL.

I am sure it will lead to something and then a light bulb will go off in my head. I can't see what the Buick franchise has to do with anything. I did keep thinking that the automobile replaced the horse, though, in the world. Horses are no longer a necessity in our country, just a luxury.

Every Chapter

I loved every word, every chapter from the get-go. It takes me back to a time and people like the ones I grew up with.

It shows the way things were then and how people made things work with whatever was at hand. My Father built his own car. Not very sleek by today's standards, but it ran. I have a picture of that.

An Uncle was exactly like Tom Smith and lived horses. I was allowed to ride bareback, hanging onto the mane (when I wan't on the ground, that is). I loved helping out in the barns and, yes, even cleaning up. All the other girls in the family were sewing for their dolls....haha.

I'm going to learn about the racetracks from this discussion. My Uncle was a big harness racing fan also.

So many memories arising out of this story.

I think there is something to be said for reading this book more than once. Like Martex on my first reading, I found the first few chapters tedious and felt that they could have been summarised into one chapter. However when I read again, I was fascinated, particularly by Charles Howard. What an entrepreneurial young man he was. For me that chapter not only gave a wonderful character profile of the man, but I was fascinated how the author so skilfully threaded the character sketch into the times. I was also interested in the part that the San Francisco earthquake played in the early days of the motor car.

I was also fascinated by the chapter on the jockey,Red Pollard, and those days of jockeys,(the ones that don't make it after they come out of their apprenticeship) are still with us. Doing it tough, hanging around the tracks in the morning, trackworking for no payment - and no rides- doing odd jobs during the day and gravitating back to the stables in the evening to muck out stables or whatever. What a part luck played in this young man's life.

Also the story of Tom Smith held me riveted. I have known the rare person like this, who communicate with horses almost imperceptably, and can see something in a horse that even a seasoned horseman cannot.

I thought the chapter on Fitzsimmons was too long and could have been dealt with in a paragraph or two.

ELLA: I would also like to know whether we discuss the whole six chapters or just one at a time. Have I gone too far?

As far as Seabiscuit is concerned, the mind boggles at the running of such a young horse so many times. He must have had a strong constitution, and I loved his sleeping habits. All that sleep must have helped him to survive. But what a personality! The fact that he was over at the knees would not have affected his soundness, but his dishing with one leg (or whatever the term used is), must have been a continuing problem for him and shoeing.

Barbara

In the middle of dinner, but I have a few minutes......do want to answer Martex's question - I'm sorry your eyes aren't quite back to normal yet from your cataract surgery, just hang in there! They will get better and you asked "How is a book discussion suppose to be conducted? This is my first one."

There are no rules, actually, except we do ask that you stick to the Discussion Schedule listed in the heading. Apparently, you do not like the "linear plot" form of this book where it starts at the very beginning and goes to the end. It's a simple way of writing, it seems to be going out of style particularly in fiction where an author starts in the middle of the plot and goes backward.

However, like PRANCER I loved it - loved every character in the book, found them to be exceptional people - extraordinary! Can you bear with us until we get to the horse part of the book?

You asked what the Buick franchise had to with anything and I say it had everything to do with Tom Smith, Red Pollard and Seabiscuit. Charles Howard had the money from the sales of Buicks; otherwise it couldn't have happened.

Do you think Charles Howard was just lucky or did he make his own luck?

Would Howard have been successful in today's climate? And did you know anything at all about Will C. Durant - the founder of General Motors?

later......

Hi, BARBARA - we were posting together and hurriedly before I burn the roast up entirely, (I'll stick it on the back burner,) to tell you that no you are not going too far.

I'm tickled that you like the characters and the settings! I, too, get something from reading a chapter over. Tom and I have read the whole book and are now reading each chapter over to comment on everything and we want to hear from you!! What impressed you with each character, each personality described by LH.

There is so much to say about the jockeys and I know we have people in this discussion that can tell us much about what it is like with them today.

e.g.

One of my favorite parts in the book, is the description of when Tom Smith, the trainer first met Seabiscuit. The scene tells a great deal about both the horse and trainer.

"A man for whom words were encumbrances, Smith didn't take note of the horse's name, but he memorized him nonetheless. He spoke to the horse as he was led away.'I'll see you again'."

I thought there was a challenge from the horse and by Smith's words, he accepted the challenge. Beautifully written.

Barbara,

Seabiscuits sleeping habits are one of the things that endear the horse to me. The fact that the horse could simply lay down and snooze through the train trip to where ever he was being taken made me laugh.

Seabiscuit had personality plus and his sleeping was one of the biggest pluses.

Tiger Tom

Seabiscuit was an intelligent horse. He was all business and responded with kindness when treated with kindness.

Barbara...in my experience with jockeys, I have yet to see one of them muck out a stall!! I have seen owners do it (me for one) but not a jock. I also have had to pay every jockey that galloped a horse for me. Has gone up to $l0/horse which is good money when you consider how many they can gallop in an hour. Galloping horses is an early morning endeavor. The track is open from 6 am until about 10;30 am with a 30 minute break. So, if you have lots of horses to get out in the morning, you have to really work fast.

Jockeys today for the most part have "agents" which are ruining racing in my opinion. There is no loyalty anymore. You might think you have a jockey lined up to ride your horse only to see the "agent" has found a better horse and the jockey has no say in the matter.

There are still lots of jockeys that have a hard life but for the most part, they are responsible for their own well being. Too many of them get hooked on drugs or alcohol or lack the ambition to get up and gallop in the morning, so they don't receive the mounts that help them survive.

I wonder if Mr. Durant is a relative of a Mr. Tom Durant here in Texas that is a successful horseman. Also, I laughed when I read about the jockey, George Wolfe, as there is a George Wolfe that is a very successful horseman, too.

I really don't mean that I haven't enjoyed the book. I have with the exception of the first chapter. As I said before, I am sure that what was written there will all tie in before I am finished reading. I am only up to chapter 7.

Funny about the animals that keep a racehorse company. Dogs are not allowed on the race track anymore. But there are many goats, chickens, and cats. There use to be a rooster that became very infatuated with a filly I owned. This rooster might wander all over the barn area during the day but he never failed to come back and sleep on one of her water buckets, right by her head. They really did appreciate each other. He disappeared one night. I am sure to a groom's cooking pot. There is suppose to be no cooking in the barn area, but it does go on.

Hi all,

I really enjoyed the first 6 chapters, perhaps because they gave such a sense of the times. I was a history major and that awareness is something I appreciate.

Of the characters I believe that I admire Charles Howard the most. He is the one who saw the potential in Seabiscuit and took the risk to get him. It was also Howard who saw the character in Tom Smith and Red Pollard. Howard, for all his braggadocio (or whatever), was a loyal, perceptive, loving human being.

But I think I "liked" Tom Smith the best. He was the mysterious man of few words. Humble, quiet, steady, honest, caring, loyal.

Red? You gotta love him. Fun and fun loving.

These guys were as different as a three-way night and day personality-wise. But the characteristics they had in common, loyalty, courage, risk-taking, loving, perseverance, were what took them and Seabisquit to the top.

Becky

Becky, You took the words right out of my mouth and I am so glad that you feel the way that I do. Thank you for posting it as I had come in to say the same thing as Seabisquit needed all of these different people to accomplise what was done. I enjoyed learning about who, what made all this come together as to me it was a great start of a great book about a great horse.

Ginger

Red Pollard

That name rings a very loud bell. When I was in school, there were two friends in class with the last name Pollard and I hadn't heard that name for many years. We lived on the East Coast then. I do not know whether they are related but I know that many people from "home" went West.

I also lived in Edmonton, Alberta and I have crossed that high bridge, referred to in the book, (The High Level Bridge) many times. You still see some businesses down below beside the North Saskatchewan River.

I must admit that Red's character was no surprise to me as I am of that ilk and to this day get myself into enough hot water to boil a lobster! One must have fun.

This discussion is wonderful, just wonderful.

All,

Itsn't it wonderful how life occasionaly manages to arrange it so diverse characters get together and make a success out of something that others would pass by.

Frankly, in a way I believe the three Men were fated to meet and to find Seabiscuit. KISMET.

But then, I am a romantic.

Tiger Tom

BARBARA stated:

"I was also interested in the part that the San Francisco earthquake played in the early days of the motor car."

And BEKKA said:

"I really enjoyed the first 6 chapters, perhaps because they gave such a sense of the times. I was a history major and that awareness is something I appreciate."

The history of this era - 1935-1940 - was intriguing to me also. The San Franciso earthquake in 1906 that catapaulted Charles Howard into the life of riches and fame was particularly interesting. There are many sites devoted to the quake, but here is one of the best:

San Francisco Earthquake
If we could talk to Charles Howard today, would he agree this was the event that turned him into a millionnaire?

Would he also agree that he set out in life to improve on his father's image - to contradict his father's life, one that lacked discipline? And being a man of imagination and great charm, he succeeded, albeit at some risk to his own life.

Questions always come to mind when I read anything historical!

DENJER recalled the scene between Tom Smith and Seabiscuit -

"I thought there was a challenge from the horse and by Smith's words, he accepted the challenge. Beautifully written."

All the book is beautifully writtten in my opinion - this description of Tom Smith -"His history had the ethereal quality of hoofprints in windblown snow." Lovely metaphor!

Did Tom Smith remind anyone of the movie - THE HORSE WHISPERER? I think it's a book also isn't it?

For some reason, however, I can't picture this rugged individual in a suit and a hat on a horse as he is pictured on page 18 and again on page 30. - obviously no pictures were taken of Smith until he became prosperous in the employ of Charles Howard at which time he started wearing business suits, hat and tie. This man who had lived with horses, slept with horses, trained horses, feels most comfortable around horses always dressed like a businessman when his picture is taken? The pictures do not fit his character in my imagination - how do you feel?

MARTEX - after reading what you said -

"in my experience with jockeys, I have yet to see one of them muck out a stall!! I have seen owners do it (me for one) but not a jock. I also have had to pay every jockey that galloped a horse for me. Has gone up to $l0/horse which is good money when you consider how many they can gallop in an hour"

I'm almost tempted to say - GOOD FOR THEM! Jockeys' lives have improved in modern times? It was pitiful in this book to read of what jockeys had to do to make any money at all.

Why would any young man want to be a jockey back in that time period? Just to repeat what their life was like in those days, I quote:

"A jockey's life was nothing short of appalling. No athletes suffered more for their sport. The jockey lived hard and lean and gended to die young, trampled under the hooves of horses or imploding from the pressures of his vocation."

THOSE WERE THE GOOD OLD DAYS, some say. AHA!

Fascinating, isn't it, that horses need a companion of some kind - I loved your story of the rooster!!!

A BIG HELLO TO MY FELLOW DL'S - TOM AND GINGER!

There is a long article in the Sports Section of my paper today detailing the life of Jimmy Winkfield who rode to gloy in 1901 and 1902 - one of the two jockeys that have consecutively won the Kentucky Derby. His granddaughter is a veterinarian and lives in the same city I do and she, her mother and 4 other relatives have been invited to sit in a box at this year's Kentucky Derby in honor of this young man, who was the last black jockey ever to ride in the Derby. Because of discrimination in this country, he went abroad for years and earned a great deal of money riding horses in Russia and France; later became a trainer and owned his own stables. Despite racism, the Russian revolution, the fall of France to the Nazis, this young man continued with horses until he died at the age of 91!

Quite a story!

Will be back later….eg

That is an interesting bit of information about Jimmy Winkfield. Thank you for telling us that.

Somehow I think that Charles Howard would have made it anyway - he had that strength of character and the will to win. The earthquake certainly gave him the opportunity to speed towards greater things, but he was sufficiently astute to take that opportunityhen it presented. He was probably a rare individual in those days too, in that he saw the advantage of forcefully marketing himself and his business. As he also seemed to be such an upright man, I wondered if this was a reaction to the character of his father.

TIGER OR IS IT TOM? Keep on being a romantic. There is no better context for romance than in the horse world. Dick Francis made a fortune out of it. lol

MARTEX: I was very sad to read your experiences in the racing game, especially regarding loyalty. Here we have so many stories of loyalty between owners and jockeys and trainers and jockeys. I think I mentioned a woman, Sheila Laxon, who trained the mare Ethereal to win millions of dollars in a spectacular fashion for her very wealthy owners. That is a great story of loyalty on both sides.

THE HORSE WHISPERER: I don't think I would equate Tom Smith with someone like the Horse Whisperer. He had the same sort of skills but Tom Smith was one of those rare beings who hung around horses, because he was addicted to them.The horses probably ate a whole lot better than he did and e probably had the seat out of his pants until he was picked up by the Howards. Then of course, protocol dictated that he be properly dressed as the trainer of a millionaire's horse - and he could then afford a suit! laughing.

I am so fascinated by the differences in the horse worlds of both our countries today, but can very much identify with the times in this book.

Barbara

Barbara,

It is Tom. I just use Tiger Tom to salute my favorite (endangered) animal.

I am an incurable Romantic. Couldn't stop if If tried. Makes life a bit nicer even if there is a bit of Rose Colored Glasses in there. Takes some of the warts off the world.

Tiger Tom

I have just sent some photos of the horses we used to own to Pat Scott for posting in the Photos then and now.

I apologize for my extended absence....it's finals week at school, and i'm up to the roots of my hair in work. I turn in my last final on Monday, so then I'll be able to devote more time to the discussion boards once more. Until then, I'll be here in spirit!

I see that my choice for winning the Derby has been scratched. Buddha has a bruised foot. He is such an impressive looking horse, I had hopes of a Triple Crown winner this year. Pat Day will not be in the Derby for the first time in a long, long time.

BARBARA - I agree that Charles Howard " was probably a rare individual in those days too, in that he saw the advantage of forcefully marketing himself and his business." He was very good at that and his association with Will Durant, founder of General Motors, was interesting too.

In searching the Internet for anything about the Durant, I found this site:

Will Durant

There is also a book about him entitled "THE DEAL MAKER - How Wm. C. Durant Made General Motors" by Axel Madsen. I just got this book from the Library and am halfway through it - if you like history, and stories of amazing men, you must get this book; published in 1999 it should be readily available at your Library.

He and Henry Ford had very different views on building and promoting their automobiles: Ford, as you all know, stuck to one cheap model and, as you also know, he said customers could have their car in any color they wanted as long as it was black - whereas, Durant folded models, such as Oldsmobile, Chevrolet, and Buick all into one company, General Motors, along with many part suppliers, and painted them many colors, and sold them for more - he figured customers wanted choices.

A site dedicated to Buicks for those interested:

Buick Gallery

I apologize for my long winded stories! I do get carried away with historical subjects!

STAND BY FOR ANOTHER SURPRISE IN THE HEADING SOON!

MARTEX - I want to go back to your post about the jockeys you have had and let's talk about them for awhile - have many questions for you, but it will have to wait. It's nice outside today for a change. We've had nothing but storms, downpours for almost a week and we get a break today and tomorrow and I have much to do in the yard and flower gardens!

Let's talk about jockeys - who has some stories or comments?

later, ella

Oh - SABRIEL We're so happy you have not forgotten us - and we all remember the hair-raising -haha- days of finals, so take care and we'll look forward to your posts about the book.

Tom never growled like a tiger, or in way acted at all fierce, so I assumed there was a reason for that name! haha Now I know and that's a good cause TOM! Ever heard of the WILDS in Ohio? A fantastic 10,000 acres given by a utility company (used to be a coal mine) and they have all the wild animals roaming free - one can get on a bus and ride through and you feel as though you are in Africa. The predators are kept separate and those animals who cannot make it through our winters are housed inside during that time. A marvelous place - come visit!!!

Ella,

I guess there are a number of places like that, some small and some larger, which present animals more or less in their natural settings.

Unfortunately there are also a number of places that allow these "Courageous Hunters" to stand at the opening of a cage and shoot an animal as it comes out or can trap one in an enclosure and then shoot it. They come away with a trophy head or skin.

Tiger Tom

Hi Everyone!

What a lovely discussion!

As Barbara has mentioned, she did indeed send me five great photos and she asked me to put a link in here to them.

Barbara's horses.

Enjoy!

Thank you, Pat! That was sweet of you.

Beautiful horse by the name of Ben - gorgeous coloring - what would you call his color? Now I must ask what a stock horse is? I did tell you all I was very ignorant of horses, remember? But I do want to learn! I assume that Glenlea Chilliwack is an address - your farm possibly?

My, My, how quickly your sweet granddaughter grew in that picture!! Hahaha

OH, HOW LOVELY SUBSTITUTE IS - YOU CAN TELL BY THE TILT OF HIS HEAD THAT HE'S A THOROUGHBRED! How else can one tell? There must be more than that!

And the last horse picture - his coat just shines!!! Beautiful color!

Thank you so much for showing them to us!

You must have grown up around horses all your life - and after reading this book I can imagine the love one feels for these animals. They truly have personalities just like humans!

Horse Pictures

Thank you Barbara and Pat for showing the wonderful pictures of the horses.

Ahhh! Would I love one of those in my yard!

Ella still waiting for my book. Unfortunately to buy off a web site is too expensive due to our low dollar and I have local taxes to pay this month so the budget is tight. However I shall look in and pass comments anyway.

Myself and horses. I admire them, love to see them run free in the fields there is nothing more graceful than a horse in a wild herd, mane flying head erect. Its the loveliest sight. However I am scared of horses and they sense this. My daughter had an ex trotter with a bad temperament. Sort of like a dog which has been ruined. He used to bail me up and I would end up standing on a high tree stump to stop him head butting me. He had a perverse enjoyment at my fear. My sister also had a bad tempered pony. He used to get out of his field if they were late with his dinner and go over to our house and believe it or not bang on the front door with his hoof. Everyone would run for the feed as we knew the door would be battered down if he did not get his way. He also had a liking for ice blocks and would refuse to go past the store until he had one bought for him. Maybe its something about our family the horses sensed we were easily bullied. It certainly goes without saying what intelligent animals they are.

Carolyn

LOOK, LOOK IN THE HEADING - IT'S MAGIC! WON'T BARBARA BE SURPRISED

So would I, Prancer! hahaha

I'm still laughing at you, Carolyn, having a pony knocking at your door! Now that would be scary! As you mentioned, I'm also afraid of horses - anything bigger than I am. I used to run from my neighbor's big German Shepard dog - I didn't trust it no matter how many times she told me it wouldn't harm me! But it didn't knock on my door wanting food! hahaha

Do continue to come in, regardless of the book - we talk about anything to do with horses here (ponies fall somewhere in the category).

later, e.g.

Oh, dear, meant to ask all of you if you had not been told that the horse above was a thoroughbred, would you have known it? Do you always have to read its bloodlines to tell? Gotta go, I'll never get anything done today.

Oh Ho HO HO!

That post of Carolyn's is so good. I can't stop laughing. I can see that!! I would probably have let the pony in and given him my bedroom and bed!

Who needs television?

What a surprise I got when i logged on this morning to see my old Substitute heading up the page. He was our pride and joy for many years, and had his own history.

Actually the heading got a bit mixed up. The name of our stud was Glenlea; Glenlea Chlliwack was a buckskin Australian Stock Horse we had a lot of success with. Most of our horses carried the prefix of Glenlea and Chilliwack (Ben) was named for a town in B.C. where my daughter lived for several years. They have even named their stud here in Australia, Vancouver Park.

Thank you for posting this picture here, and thank you to Pat Scott for the sterling work she does in posting for us.

The Australian Stock Horse could be equated with your working Quarter Horse, except for its breeding and it is probably a little more versatile, although qh breeders here would I am sure argue this. I am looking for a web page for the Australian Stock Horse and will post here if I can find it.

Barbara

Here is the url for one ASH page. I don't know how to show it any other way.

http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/facts/2001/roadtests/stockhorse_13.html

I was so gobsmacked at seeing my old Substitute at the top of the page, that I forgot to respond to your post.

There is nothing so frightening than to be bossed about by a horse, but you told the story so vividly that I laughed and laughed. I think that very few horses are born bad, it is what happens to them on the way up that makes them that way. I guess the two horses you spoke about had a pretty rough ride (pardon the pun) before you came in contact with them.

Barbara what a beautiful horse! The thing that has always made me sad was when horses are sold and have quite a lot of owners in their lives. I am a dog lover and a dog is yours for life as far as I am concerned. When my daughter sold her horse he stood for months in the paddock at the same time she came to ride him each day. My husband was mad with our daughter and lectured her about the responsiblity of animals and the love they have for us. I nearly cried seeing this horse at the gate. It proved he had attached himself to our daughter and was hoping she would come each day.

Carolyn

Oh, golly, I've got as much chance in getting something right in this conversation as an ice cube does in a frying pan!

Glenlea Chilliwack is not the name of a farm - it's a horse!!!

But it sounded so pretty as a farm or a city or something....oh, boy!

I'm going right now to change that! My apologies to the horse and you!

Your horses are beautiful, Barbara. Thank you for sharing the pictures--and Pat, thanks for putting them up and giving us a link to them.

I got a copy of Seabiscuit at the library today. I had looked through the shelf with the newest books and didn't see it, but asked the librarian and she reached down and pulled it out right under my nose! She told me a friend had read it and enjoyed it. I almost always enjoy the same books this friend likes, so I was doubly lucky today.

The Montgomery Advertiser had a terrific chart of the 128th Kentucky Derby field today. It was arranged in 4 rows of 5 shirts and caps in full color as the jockeys will be tomorrow. The shirts are arranged in numerical order of their post positions. Under each shirt they list the name of the horse, the jockey, the trainer, and the odds. Some of these shirts are pretty snazzy and some look like they are advertising gas stations or are from outer space! I'll look up today's Advertiser on the web and see if they have this chart there. If they do, I'll post a link. Sue

MARTEX - THANKS for telling us about Buddha being scratched from the Derby. It must be disheartening for an owner to have to do that so close to the race. What do you think about "CAME HOME?"

Earlier you said:

"Jockeys today for the most part have "agents" which are ruining racing in my opinion. There is no loyalty anymore. You might think you have a jockey lined up to ride your horse only to see the "agent" has found a better horse and the jockey has no say in the matter.

There are still lots of jockeys that have a hard life but for the most part, they are responsible for their own well being. Too many of them get hooked on drugs or alcohol or lack the ambition to get up and gallop in the morning, so they don't receive the mounts that help them survive.

Is there loyalty anywhere between employee and employer? And everyone - from authors to tv stars-have agents that make their money from getting their client a better paying job?

What can you tell us about the Jockeys Guild? Is it like a hospitalization policy by any chance? All these injuries that jockeys are subjected to must be very costly in doctor and hospital bills, and in the era of Red Pollard and George Woolf they probably had to pay off their bills on the installment plan.

I couldn't find the colorful chart on the Advertiser's web site, but here is the link: http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/. If you click on sports you will find lots of related Derby links. Sue

Hi SUE!

We were posting together. Am so happy you will be joining us, we are just on the first six chapters so you can catch up easily.

My paper today had funny stories about the Derby in it; the headline reads: "If its owner ponies up the money, any old nag can run in the Kentucky Derby." It costs $30,000 to enter your horse! Wow!

"And down the stretch they come.....except for Glue Factory which is doing figure-eights on the backstretch. And here comes ... no, he did a u-turn and is back at the starting gate..."

That sort of thing - which is not all that funny!

Let's hear some stories about jockeys - who would you have hired if Red Pollard or George Woolf had both asked you for a job?

No jockey story here, but tonight's NBC news had a story about thoroughbreds who are not racing winners. It seems that lots of them end up as steaks in Germany and other European countries. The story featured a woman who is saving the non-winners by getting them to prisons and other places where they can live. I missed the part that told how she managed to pay for these programs. Sue

By following a torturous route starting with the url you gave us, I found this page with all the runners. Is this the one you were talking about?

http://www.tvguide.com/derby2002/derbyfield.asp

I will have to see if I can watch the Derby or if it is on one of the channels, I will try to tape it.

I fancy Easy Grades, but then I don't know anything about the horses. laughing.

Barbara

Ella, that's not the chart/graph in the Advertiser, but it does give much of the same information. The Advertiser's graph showed the jockey's silks in color. Some of the pictures in your URL showed the same silks, some only showed the horse. Came Home, who is a 5-1 favorite sure has a small nose. Is this unusual, horse breeders? Sue

I am axiously waiting for the Kentucky Derby.

Barbra S.Beautiful Horse. So sorry that I could not help with the picture but you picked the best, Pat S, to do it for you as it is her specialtly, among the many talents of hers.

Ginger

Well, I am torn between two horses in the derby today....#3 Perfect Drift and #9 Medaglia D'Oro. They scratched Danthebluegrassman. Pat Day is now riding BlueBurner.

Well, equal time. On my website I have 3 pictures from my racing. The first one is of all the jockeys. They got in my winning picture last year. Also, lots of office employees and unknowns. The second picture is the weekend that Retama Park opened for the first time. My horse, Stinger, won his first time out. His winning picture and my award picture. I am standing next to the jock.

Jockeys

Finish Line

Award Presentation

Yes, yes, MARTEX I'm so pleased you brought your pictures - all those jockeys? You have had a lot of races haven't you, to have all those jockeys together! Some of them have blue and white on and others red/white, which were your colors? Does it matter if jockeys wear different colors? Would you explain to me about the colors that the jockeys wear? Who makes these decisions and do the horses' owners buy the jockeys their uniforms or do the jockeys?

GOLD STINGER was a beauty! And I see your name there - MARGARET! I'm going to call you that after this! The jockey was wearing red and white there - I bet your heart was in your mouth during that race!!! What an exciting finish!

And you are so pretty in that last picture and so YOUNG! But the jockey is taller than you which surprises me - either you are short and he's too tall to be a jockey or one other possibility - he's so skinny that if he turned sideways you couldn't see him at all - is that true!

And that was just a few years ago! 1995 - are you still racing horses?

I think you said once you were out of it, but I'm not sure! Why did you give it up?

And how did you know that Stinger was a good horse when you bought him? Or bred him?

Oh, so many questions, wish I could sit down with you and get them all answered!

THANKS SO MUCH FOR GIVING US A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THOSE PICTURES Do you have a picture we can put in the heading?

Hi GINGER!

Do you have a picture of when you were a newspaper girl on a horse? Would love to see that!

Today is the Kentucky Derby which here will be run about 6 p.m. Harlan's Holiday is a horse from Ohio and there are all sorts of jokes about that - it seems his dam was bred in Kentucky but came back to Ohio to be born! So can Kentucky claim him or Ohio.

There have always, through the years, been jokes about Kentucky and Ohio which border each other. It's inevitable I suppose - and what makes it worse is that the airport for Cincinnati, Ohio was built in Kentucky. That's a bit strange to people who don't know.

On the first Elderhostel I went to by myself I had a roommate from Manhattan and she thought she was in Ohio when she landed at the airport and was dismayed to find out she was only in Kentucky - and so she took a cab and the driver didn't know that either and got lost!!! Cost her a fortune to get to Cincinnati!

My husband didn't think he would like Elderhostels until we went together to the second one in Dayton, Ohio where the Air Force Museum is and he was hooked! Been to one or two a year since!

So is everyone here primed to watch the Derby?

Carolyn and Barbara - what time is it being shown where you live? Or do you watch it - I'm sure you have your own exciting races! The Melbourne Cup is when??

I haven't used all those jockeys. They just all got in the winner's picture. Lots of times strangers end up in the pictures, too.

Owners pick their own colors and designs for the silks and purchase them. The jockey does not supply them. The jockey does have his own saddle, however.

I bred Stinger and he is l0 years old now and still racing. He managed to win once last year but he really is not the horse he use to be. However, none of us are as we age. LOL. I don't breed anymore. My last foals are 3 years old now. I got too old and it was too much work. Need to be younger than in your 60's to take an active part. I still have Stinger and another horse at the racetrack.

I have lots of pictures but the size of them make it difficult to post on the internet. They are big even when cut down and the quality is not that good. Much too big to cut down to Seniornet standards. I do have a picture of Stinger when he was a few days old. I knew he was a winner when I first saw him at 3 am on a cold, rainy morning. He has been good to me.

I am 5'4" and some jockeys are taller. They are just super skinny, although fairly muscled as they have to be in fit condition in order to control a racehorse. I also think probably his boots may have added a couple of inches. LOL.

Well, I was suppose to be going to San Antonio to my daughter's today and I can't get in touch with her. So...here I sit.

Well, if you are just sitting there, make more comments about jockeys - you must have had loads of experiences and......

Do jockeys today have to go through a physical exam? Gosh, neither Red Pollard or George Woolfe would have passed if so - Red had only one eye and Woolfe had diabetes, giving himself a shot of canine insulin (????) every day. And Woolfe was constantly sleeping - he and Seabiscuit, who also was always napping, would have been a good pair.

Do you know I had 2 pages of notes on these 6 chapters - made them while I was re-reading them - and they are GONE!!!!! Somehow I deleted them, I don't how I did that! I have frantically searched for them in this computer - they are not in the recycle bin.

Oh, big sigh!!! I know I had saved them at one time - any ideas how I could recover them? I've heard nothing is ever lost in a computer.

Must get ready to go to a friend's house - I'm not very good at parties being somewhat of a loner and I'm not good at small talk. Aren't all readers somewhat of a loner? Or just me?

But this friend is having a Kentucky Derby party and I just found out two days (after I RSVP'd) that they have invited 30 people! 30 people! And it starts at 3 and the Derby is not until 6 p.m. Now what do I - we - any of us do for 3 hours????? Tell me something to talk about quick!!!!

Hahaha - I'll be that one over in the corner by myself watching and listening!

Boy that business with the Irish horses is something else, isn't it? Driving them in today at the last minute, what's the mystery? Very exciting, and you all are in the forefront. I just had to come in and say this, happy Derbying!

Barbara!! What an absolutely gorgeous horse, I have one too but he doesn't look ANYTHING like that, will show his photo later on in the week, gorgeous!

ginny

Ella,

Secret to making small talk is to let the other person do all of the talking. You will fast become known as a brilliant conversationalist. Just nod every now and again and tut and cluck as necessary.

Tiger Tom

Happiness is a brand new filly born May 3, 2002 @ 7:30 PM CDT.

Proud PasoFino Mama and Baby

Wasn't that Derby something..

Great racing pictures. What a wonderful picture of all those jockeys together. That must have been a very rare photo opportunity.

GINGER: Great to see you again. You haven't been here for such a long time.

PAT: CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR NEW ADDITION. Isn't it an exciting time to see a new little one come into the world. Such a proud mama too.

WHAT WON THE DERBY?

Barbara

Getting back to the book. I read chapter 6 with profound sadness - to think that any human being could be expendable as those young men and boys were all those years ago. Jockeys are still being killed and maimed for life in race falls, but at least as Martex points out there is insurance coverage. Although that does not make up for a life or years of disability.

I could identify with the wife who always went to the races to watch her husband and her horror when she saw him fall. And then she had to find her own way to the hospital! Thankfully we are more humane today.

Barbara

Barbara, the horse Bob Baffert trained for only 3 weeks was the winner. His name was War Emblem and he was out in front the whole way.

Just as the jockeys were getting into the saddle, a dear friend from college days called. She and husband are living on a yacht in the Caribbean and are only in the States a couple of times a year. So of course I muted the TV and didn't really see much of the race. I was surprised to see War Emblem crossing the finish line so far ahead of the field.

I started reading Sea Biscuit last night and finished Chapter 1. I thought it was well written and a fascinating picture of a self made man. I would like to know what happened to the discarded wife after the son died. I wonder if they had really had serious problems before he met the new young wife. There is probably no way to know as I imagine we won't hear any more about the first wife in this book. Sue

Here is another absolutely wonderful photo of Substitute that Barbara sent. It should be entitled plain and simply, "Love".

Click here.

Amazed!

Again, thanks for sharing that photo.

Wonderful photo, Pat W, of the new addition and love the new photo of Substitute (love the name) Pat S.

Since we're sharing horse photos I timidly thought you all might like to see one of my old horse, he's certainly no thoroughbred but he's special to us anyway, nearing 30 years of age, turned away from photo but has a white mane, tail, and star and blaze, here is Tobo yesterday in the field

As a child I read every book on horses and racing and thoroughbreds I could get my hands on and entered a contest to name a race horse, won one of the minor prizes, and still have them: glasses with Derby Day Winner on them, for the name Cicada. I don't suppose that horse went down in history as famous hahahahaha

Did you see the winner yesterday try to take a piece of the post horse's hide? hahahahaha

Gorgeous horse tho, I noticed the post horse rider kept a firm hold near the bridle as they came on into the winner's circle.

Wonderful discussion here, because of it I have bought the book but will have to read it after my trip.

ginny

WASN'T THAT A GRAND DERBY!

The horses came out in good form and it seemed to me that War Emblem was second from the rail and stayed there the whole race - is that how you saw it?

And a Saudi Arabian prince owned him? He probably doesn't live in the USA, just owns one of those gorgeous mansions in Lexington, KY and has many servants in and out to run the place. I didn't get to hear any chatter before or after the race about owners, horses, etc. so if you heard something interesting let us all know!

PAT - what an adorable baby horse - thanks for sharing that with us. They stand up right away don't they and is that your daughter or granddaughter - she's a very attractive young lady! Was she helping with the birth?

BARBARA - thanks for that lovely picture of both horse and daughter - Wendy is lovely, the horse, BLISS, is lovely. As Pat Scott stated - it's love! Blissful love!

TOBO, GINNY, looks good for a 30-year old horse! What is the average age for a horse if he has been kept well fed and cared for? Thanks for sharing your horse with us!

DERBY'S OVER - TIME TO RETURN TO OUR WONDERFUL DISCUSSION! But that was all a lot of fun - thanks so much to all of you for contributing such pictures and posts - all of you make it such a pleasure - something I look forward to every day!!!

If anyone has any other pictures to share, please let me know and I can arrange to make a clickable to your home page or put them in the heading.

Someone asked about Charles Howard's marriage in the first chapter and I think it was because of their son dying - didn't you all think that was the reason? Some marriages just fall apart when that happens, they expect to be consoled by the other; but it is something one must manage alone, I believe.

BARBARA - I hope it will be all right with you if I take your lovely horse picture away from the heading as I intend to use that space for questions we can all discuss together. If I don't get them up tonight (we are going out for awhile), then I'll put them up tomorrow morning.

One thing I did want to discuss is the heritage of Seabiscuit (ancestry?). He was a descendant of Man o' War (page 35) who, as our book states, "populated the racing world with beautiful man-eaters One of his youngsters stomped a groom to death; another time the horse threw a rider and incredibly the jockey managed to catch the rail and dismount unhurt.

Seabiscuit's mother, Hardtack - another descendant of Man o'War - inherited the temper and passed it on also!

I am wondering if an owner/trainer would rather have a horse with a temperament or a complacent personality. It seems to me after reading about some of those ferocious horses that they are the ones who win. Not always, of course, but doesn't a thoroughbred need to have spirit?

What are your thoughts!

More later, ella

An Internet site about Man o'War:

MAN O' WAR

I've finished the first 5 chapters now and was appalled at the living and working conditions of the jockeys in the 20s and 30s. How in the world did any young man stay in the game once he learned how difficult it was to maintain weight, avoid fatal injuries, etc.? No wonder today's jockeys are paid such outrageous sums. Do any of you horse owners/trainers have thoughts on this? Sue

I don't mind a bit having Subby put away again. I was delighted to see him there when I downloaded a few days ago. If he was still with us and if he could talk, he would have been very proud to have his picture here. He was such a show off! lol

Am I wrong or was Hardtack a stallion, not a mare?

Does War Emblem's pedigree (blood lines) trace back to War o War? On Sunday night here, they showed a few seconds of the finish of the Kentucky Derby and hat horse sure was a bolter - start to finish - and he won by such a good margin. The Sheiks have been trying to win the Melbourne Cup for years and I think they have only won once, if that. Maybe this year. It is run on the first Tuesday in November.

GINNY: What a lovely old horse and what good shape he is in for his age. I love to see old horses living out their lives in a luxurious paddock - so many of them come to a sticky end.

SPIRIT: There is an old saying about horses "You know where the heart is, but you don't know if they have one, until you put them to the test". Martex will undoubtedly be able to give a very knowledgeable opinion on this. I believe spirit or the will to win, whether it is racing or jumping or eventing is a combination of a number of characteristics - athleticism, heart, good bone and joints and the joy of winning. Some horses just love to win and will try and try and try, while others have to be coaxed or forced.

Personally I don't equate bad temperament with spirit or even excess energy with spirit. Seabiscuit was a case in point, he just took things easy, he slept and slept and slept. God bless his little cotton sox.

SUE: A few messages back, I posted about jockeys and further back Martex had a long post about jockeys. She is more up to date than me.

I think I had better keep quiet for a while.

Barbara

Hardtack was the stallion. The mare's name started with an S, I think. This is the only thing I don't like about book discussions: my inability to remember details. Sue

OK, I looked back. The mare's name was SwingOn. Sue

Sure, the ones that win races like the Derby make a pretty good paycheck. However, there are many like in the 20s and 30s. Lot of them have them selves to blame but a lot of them work hard and still can't get ahead.

Ella...I never commented on insurance for jockeys. I don't know if they have it or not. I don't know about the jockey's guild. The trainers I know don't have insurance unless it is privately acquired by them. I would imagine the jockeys are the same way. There is a benevolent group that does help horse people in need but it is just a drop in the bucket.

But you can't compare jockeys salaries with baseball, football, or basketball players. None of them (the jockeys) sign contracts for millions of dollars like our Sunday afternoon hero of some sort of ball playing.

Also, I never get into a discussion about horseracing that it is not brought up about horses ending up as food in Europe. Well, for ages it has been in dogfood. Is that okay? I have never sent my horses to the slaughter house nor know of anyone that has, but a lot of horses do go to live stock auctions, usually bought by people that are in the horse business for further training and reselling. Lots of mine go for polo ponies or jumpers. I think the cost would be prohibitive to ship horsemeat abroad. Besides, they have their own horses over there. I don't think they need to import them. Horses injured bad enough to not recover on the racetrack go straight to the vet barn for euthanasia.*sp*

I thought the Kentucky Derby was boring and the horse and rider that won was allowed to set the pace. It was a mediocre time and I would wager that horse will not be a triple crown winner. One of the worse races I have seen in a long time. No challenge to the winner at all. I have seen $5,000 claimers run a more exciting race. I was also sorry that a lesser known trainer and a more common owner were not winners. Somehow after the tragedy of last year, I rather resent a Saudi Arabian Prince with his million dollar horse winning the Ky. Derby. That might sound prejudiced on my part and it is. Forgive me if I offend anyone because that is not my intent.

I am sorry that none of you with the exception of Barbara and Ella commented on my pictures. I really am quite proud of my horses and they have a good life, on the racetrack and off.

Martex

I made comments that I loved all the horse pictures. I am not knowledgeable enough to point out specifics; I just love the animals. I'm so sorry..My comments were meant to be all inclusive.

BTW, I've heard in conversations that today's best horses never even see a race, rather, are used only for breeding. Any truth to that?

I don't know about that. How would they know they are such great runners, if they didn't try them. It use to be that they didn't run them because of the fact that they may be "duds" as runners and that would not make them popular as a stud. No one would want to breed to a horse that didn't win. So, rather than take the chance, they just never ran them People would more likely then to take a chance and breed their mares to them.

Most of our great runners are being sold off to other countries. Good example is Japan. Then the top producers have died off or are old now. Who will be the next Northern Dancer or Mr. Prospector?

Martex

I enjoyed your post. Again, I don't know how it works now. This conversation was amongst the 40 year-olds, and, as we know, thinking has sure changed since we were young. Whether there is another system, I can't say.

BTW. I must tell you that I once had the great privilege of meeting Northern Dancer in the stables at the E.P. Taylor farm in Canada. My cousin, who is also a Taylor, was in charge of the farm and stables and he showed me through the barns. I shall never forget that. A long row of stalls, with all those magnificent "rumps" swaying back and forth.

I must have him refresh my memory and ask him what other notable horses may have been in there. At the time, I was young, and didn't fully realize the significance of the occasion.

My friend once went to Kentucky and saw many of the great studs that stood there. She saw Secretariat shortly before he died. I always wished I could have seen him as he was the greatest as far as I am concerned. I was very saddened at his death.

My last stud horse was a son of Chief's Crown foaled in Canada. He was sold and sent to England as a yearling. He came back to the states as a 5 year old. He was bred by the trainer, Roger Laurien. Roger was the son of Lucias Laurien (I am not sure I am spelling their names right). Lucias was the trainer of Secretariat.

I am finding lots of information about Seabiscuit on the internet and there is much written about the book on his life. Probably why the book is not easy to find right now. I picked up the book about Secretariat the other day at a discount book store for $6. I am anxious to read it.

SUE - We are all asking ourselves the same question - why did these jockeys, particularly the two described in our book, Pollard and Woolfe, continue riding. Unbelieveable! I doubt there are any answers, maybe the jockeys themselves wondered. Are you enjoying the book?

Barbara That's a good question about WAR EMBLEM and his bloodlines - I'll look him up on the Internet and see what I can find - will do that tonight. I have a full schedule today

MARGARET Thanks for your comments and I will also try tonight to find something about today's jockeys and benefits they may have; particularly hospitalization. I'll do a search for the Jockeys' Guild because it is mentioned in the book. You are so right that horse racing cannot compare with the big sports leagues and did you read on the Man o' War site that the popularity of horse racing has declined considerably? And how about Man o'War being embalmed and shown to the public - people even giving him a last pat. That must have been at the height of horse racing in this country.

Certainly I should not comment on the Derby race - I thought it was exciting because I have never been a racing fan! Probably in my whole life I have watched it 3 times (and I am 74 years old)! I watched this year because of reading this book and I was invited by friends to my first-ever Derby party and one of their DIL's wore a huge straw hat with flowers - haha - she was cute! And after sipping on a glass of wine for 2 hours (I don't drink at all normally), my friend and her husband brought out mint juleps right before the race. They were strong - did that anything to do with my excitement? Hahaha

Hi, PRANCER. Margaret answered you very well - probably she's right. No one would want to breed a mare to a horse that was not a winner, so why take the chance. If it has good bloodlines, just breed it, huh?

I must state right now (if you all haven't got the idea yet, haha) that I know nothing about horses and will make more mistakes about genders, bloodlines, sex - all those terms that you knowledgeable people spout so easily - so please overlook them all! One is never too old to learn how to make new mistakes, so true for me! I'll try to learn but you mustn't count on it!!!!

Will put a few questions from time to time in the heading!

My thanks to all of you who are posting! Such fun to read your comments and learn new stuff!

When the old horseman die off, their offspring do not keep the breeding farms.

I didn't know that about Man o' War being embalmed. Well, I went to the Roy Rogers Museum and there is Trigger, Buttermilk and even the dog, Bullet, embalmed. So, I guess there is nothing wrong with it. I can't say I like the idea but that is just my opinion. I don't condemn anyone that does it.

I am glad that you enjoyed the Derby, Ella. The party sounds like it was fun. My trainer enjoyed the Derby, too. We talked on the phone that night about it and he didn't agree with my opinion, but that was okay, too. haha. It is just rather sad that we can't have a hero like Seabiscuit now. Horseracing needs one to keep it alive.

Your questions in the heading: I would most like to have met the trainer. I think he had the most influence on Seabiscuit as he was with the horse nearly 24 hours a day. His training style is so much like my trainer/partner. Of course, my trainer has been training for 50 years so I imagine techniques were much the same.

I liked the chapter about the Jockeys the most. No reason except it held my interest the most. I felt for Red Pollard. He seems to have suffered for his love of riding.

The promised storms are here - must shut this computer down - so all will have to wait until tomorrow!

See you all then!

The book has arrived at my library so hopefully I can pick it up today. I have a dog to sit, shes a bossy little thing and I just have to make sure she is in a good mood today before I leave her with my two alone. She once hurt my littlest dog. However for the past couple of years she has been OK with them. They are all of the bichon frise breed, definately house dogs!

Carolyn

I have the book now and intend to sit down this afternoon and get started. Its a brand new book and I have only waited a couple of weeks for it!

Carolyn

Tom Smith appears to be a true Horse Whisperer. He is probably like many true animal lovers. He likes horses better than people!

Carolyn

Hello, CAROLYN - so happy you have the book now. We are discussing the first six chapters and I have a few questions posted in the heading for discussion.

Hi, MARGARET - I'll have more time tomorrow to comment on your choices of answers. I think they are interesting, even though Tom Smith would not be my choice, but more of that later.

WHERE ARE YOU ALL TONIGHT?

I slipped in here between storms - they will continue through the night, but I did manage to look up the Jockeys' Guild. Interesting information.

Safety record of the Jockeys Guild

Note this: "More than a half century ago, three riders -- Eddie Arcaro, Johnny Longden and Sammy Renick -- cared enough about conditions they and other jockeys endured to pool their money to form an organization to ensure change. They kicked in $5,000 each to found the Jockeys' Guild." NOTE WHO SIGNED THAT ARTICLE

Jockeys' Guild May 6th news from the Cincinnati Enquirer newpaper"
Note who resigned - here is the quote: All six office workers in Lexington and six regional directors have been let go. John Giovanni, the guild's national secretary, resigned a week ago.

Obviously something shady was going on the Jockeys' Guild!

And it is for hospitalization of jockeys who get injured at the racetrack. It is just too bad that before the '50's they had nothing in the way of insurance. And yet something kept them at it - amazing!

more later -eg

I think the most important person in the racing career of Seabiscuit was his trainer Tom Smith. It was his talent for knowing the horse individually and building on the horses strengths whilst eliminating his faults. It was also his talent for seeing past the physical appearance of the horse and spotting the heart of the animal or one may say the spirit. I believe animals do have spirits.

I would like to meet Tom Smith as I believe I know dogs much the same way as he knew horses and to me animals are far more complex in their psyche and far more intelligent than most people think. I know my dogs needs and wants just as he knew the horses needs and wants. Its a matter of studying their body language and expression with ears and tails too.

I have no preference in the chapters they were all interesting to me from the motor industry to the lives of the jockeys. Laura Hillebrand is an excellent writer also and not many people could have made this book so interesting to a non racing person.

Carolyn

kiwi lady

I have the same thoughts re the first question in the discussion. Tom Smith.

I have the same rapport with animals - can make the lion lie down with the lamb. I love that.

Have rescued many and trained them. One cat in particular, (and cats CAN be trained) did nothing more than shiver behind a furnace, and (against hubby's wishes) managed to get her into a cage and have her flown to my home. There was a period of bringing her back to sanity and having her integrate into a pet family. She had never even seen a dog, but by the time I was finished, she slept under the long, floppy ears of my Black Cocker Spaniel and those dogs are usually jealous of any other pet taking over their "Mommy". Those two became inseparable.

Many, many other stories, too numerous for this post.

Great discussion.

I believe Tom Smith was the most influential in shaping Seabiscuit's remarkable career, but I also think that Red Pollard had a very special rapport with the horse. Smith's originality in training methods seem to be inspired. He really got into the "mind" of the horse.

It is difficult to say which man I would be interested in meeting. They all have fascinating personalities, so different. I think I would be uncomfortable with Smith as I like to talk and I think he would probably ignore me. Howard, while personable, seems a little shallow, but that may be because he is so adept at self promotion. Lauren Hillenbrand has certainly captured the essence of each of the 3 protagonists and her story telling has made dry facts come alive in my imagination. This is a very good read for someone who is not always fond of non-fiction. Sue

I'm surprised that so many of you chose Tom Smith as the person you would most like to meet! As Carolyn said:

"He likes horses better than people!"

Also, Carolyn, this statement won the prize of the day, as we all agree -

"Laura Hillebrand is an excellent writer also and not many people could have made this book so interesting to a non racing person."

MARGARET commented that:

it is just rather sad that we can't have a hero like Seabiscuit now. Horseracing needs one to keep it alive

YES, YES, YES! Would that bring back the sport of horse racing, do you think? And what has caused its decline? Or has it?

PRANCER also would like to meet Tom Smith because he was so good with animals and she:

I have the same rapport with animals - can make the lion lie down with the lamb. I love that.

SUE said:

"I think I would be uncomfortable with Smith as I like to talk and I think he would probably ignore me."

Smith didn't talk, except to animals. How comfortable would it be to have him around?

"As a general rule, Smith didn't talk. He had a habit of walking away from anyone asked him questions, and he avoided social gatherings because people expected him to speak. A journalist who had watched Smith for years described him thus: - 'He nods hello, shakes hands goodbye, and hasn't said a hundred words in all.'

There's something to be said for being quiet, I am myself; however, Smith and I wouldn't even have a love of horses in common so he wouldn't even nod hello to me.

I think of them all I would like Charles Howard the best, and not because he is rich but because he had a great personality; he would have to - every successful salesman must if he is to succeed in business. I also think he had great intuition and foresight. And, CHARLES HOWARD, was the man who picked Seabiscuit out of the crowd:

"I can't described the feeling he (Seabiscuit) gave me, but somehow I knew he had what it takes. Tom and I realized that we had our worries and troubles ahead. We had to rebuild him, both mentally and physically, but you don't have to rebuilg the heart when it's already there, big as all outdoors.

Of course, Tom Smith wanted the horse, but Howard realized his potential and had the money to buy him.

Had you ever heard that horses suffer impeded breathing and circulation when lying down and the vast majority of horses' sleeping is done standing which they can do thanks to ligaments that lock their leg joints? Who knew this? Well, of course, all you people with expertise in horses, but wasn't it sweet that Seabiscuit, who was lazy and loved to sleep and was as "slow as growing grass (haha)" was an exception. Who could plop down anywhere and sleep for hours?

He and I would have a lot in common - I can do that when tired!!!! Haha

What was interesting to me is that Fitzsimmons, the only man that Tom Smith was in awe of, an experienced horse trainer for years and one of the best, would let Seabiscuit be sold? But the owner wanted money and Seabiscuit was not going to perform! Poor little thing had raced 35 times in one season, triple the typical workload of a horse and had never done anything worthy.

George Woolfe, who knew horses very well, called him "mean, restive and ragged."

I must stop - have a dentist's appt - and later today we are having storms again.

Do you like the purple color? I need something cheery today - rain, rain, gray skies, gloomy!

CARRY ON ALL YOU WONDERFUL PEOPLE!

LATER, EG

All,

SEeabiscuit was central. No horse, nothing.

However, among the Men both Howard and Smith we crucial and Pollard and Woolfe jointly made the third leg. Take away Howard or Smith and it all falls apart. Pollard figures so much early on and Woolfe later. Without these men the Saga of Seabiscuit would have never happened.

I would have liked to at least shook hands with all of them and would have liked to met the three, Howard, Smith and Pollard because they stood on their own and asked nothing of life but a chance, however small.

As I have said before, and I think it bears repeating, Howard, Smith and Pollard asked no quarter from life and got none. They, to my mind, represent the American Character.

Tiger Tom

Hello Tom! Truer words were never spoken - an old cliche but apt here, thank you!!!

BARBARA - HOW ARE THINGS IN AUSTRALIA? Storms there also?

Anyone here live in the midwest where pipebombs are exploding in mailboxes? And the guy is heading east where I live? - I told my husband to take the door off our mailbox and he refused!! Shall I do it myself? Perhaps a long stick would do it?

Chapter Four would probably be my favorite of these chapters because of this particular quote which I loved:

"The books were the closest things he (Red Pollard) had to furniture, and he lived in them the way other men live in easy chairs.

Can't add anything to that sentence - it's a beaut!

At the end of every chapter I make a few notes in pencil if it is my book - postit notes if it is a Library book. At the end of Chapter 5 I put "HORRIBLE!" Thinking back it was because of the dieting that these young men went through, the laxatives, diarrhea, the sweating regimes, and, worst of all, that tapeworm!!!!

Can you believe that?

What do jockeys today do to keep the weight off? Anyone know?

Ella

As promised:

WAR EMBLEM - AFTER THE RACE!

Los Angeles Times article - re: who gets the money?

Boston Globe-Two ways to look at the Derby Win

Associated Press - What happened Saturday wasn't sweet

War Emblem's Breeding - Thoroughbred Times article"

Is everyone ready to go on to Chapters 7-12? Let me know and off we go!

I'm sure everyone has seen the news articles and tv spots about Seattle Slew. He was a great looking horse. Isn't it strange that he died on the 25th anniversary of his Derby win? Sometimes humans die on significant dates, like birthdays and holidays--2 former Presidents on the 4th of July!

I just finished the book except for the notes at the end which I will also read, so whenever you wish to move on, I'm ready. I think the library will let me keep the book longer than the check in time if no one else asks for it. Sue

Jockeys in NZ today. Not a lot has changed except the living conditions are better for the apprentices. The average jockey here earns NZ $21,000 a year. Of course there are the few who do very well but in the majority it is not a rewarding career at all. They still go into the saunas, starve themselves of fluids and eat lettuce leaves! I know all this as we had one hour documentary on the very subject last year. It's a very hard life and they certainly have to have a real love of the horses and racing to persevere!

Carolyn

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=9482

Fair story there, not Seabiscuit, but another great one.

Another Seattle Slew page: Seattle Slew

In reading this, I was also recalling famous jockies who were so well known-Eddie Arcaro and Willie Shoemaker came to mind. Without knowing it, I have probably been "following" horse racing for a long time. But, I am also equally interested in auto racing. Just a fan, at heart, I guess!

Some of my first memories are of standing beside two of my great-uncles in the horsebarn at the Indiana State Fairgrounds while they discussed the horse in the stall and his possibility of winning the next race. One uncle trained harness race horses for a well known restaurant owner in Chicago.

Since I had already read the book, I am listening to the audio tape-6 chapters at a time-this time around. Isn't this a wonderful book? Well done and not boring or dry! I love it!

Weather here is crazy. It is now three weeks till winter and this week we have had summer from 10.a.m. to 4.pm. with chilly mornings and evenings. Yesterday was the hottest May day for 45 years. A few weeks ago we did have very high winds and some of the leaves fell, but now the trees don't quite know what to make of it all and trees that would normally be bare at this time of year, are still holding on to their leaves.

Just one more comment on Ch.1-6. Many times in my life I have been impressed about the impact that coincidence plays in ordering the direction of our lives. This was never more so than with Seabiscuit and his connections. If Yummy's old car had not broken down and disgorged a weary and dirty, down on their luck, Yummy and Pollard close to the racetrack; if Tom Smith had not been perplexed about the best way to handle the horse on the track; if Charles Howard had not had the perspicacity (and courage) to see in Smith and Pollard and the horse, something special (and of course the money), the story of Seabiscuit might never have been written. What strange phenomenon influences these 'coincidences' to occur?

HELLO EVERYONE on this gray, damp cold day in the heart of the USA! Good to see you all - SUE, CAROLYN, BEKKA, ANN AND BARBARA!

I've put some new questions in the heading for our contemplation and we shall begin Chapters 7 - 12.

With every chapter I read in this book, I realize what little I know, how much I would like to learn and those of you who know the answers please have patience with those of us who do not!

For example, do all horses in a race wear those "blinders" or "blinkers" or whatever they are called? I meant to notice that in the Derby race and didn't. And what are they for?

And what is the proper position for the jockey on the horse? When does he stand in the stirrips and when does he lay flat on the horse's neck?

When I read about the inner rail and the outside of the track, (page 103) I was confused. "Any horse who refused to swing wide could get into serious trouble."

Do all trainers teach their horses to go wide? I would think that those horses next to the rail would have an advantage, do they? I understand the principle that they can all get bunched up there and cause damage to themselves and the jockey, but swinging wide would have its disadvantage too.

Are the rest of you impressed with Tom Smith's patience? I would never be able to endure doing all the things necessary to win this horse's affection and trust - I admire it but couldn't duplicate it myself.

more later - eg

I will do my best to answer your questions. But remember that I am speaking from Australian experience. Martex and Sue are more able to give you the American experience.

BLINKERS: To race a horse in blinkers, you have to have special permission from the racing authority and you have to show the reason for doing so. This also applies to any special piece of equipment that is outside the usual tack. Blinkers are used for a number of reasons including when a horse is flighty or jumpy when it sees other horses come alongside. This can be dangerous, because the nervy horse can jump on to another and cause an accident. Also some horses are more interested in what is going on around them, and blinkers are used so that they just see straight ahead and so keep their minds on the job. Stallions are sometimes raced in blinkers, especially if they have a tendency to savage another stallion running alongside them. This is more likely to happen in the breeding season when the mares are on heat.

JOCKEY'S POSITION: The jockey's usual position is a crouch. S/he may lean a little more on a horse's neck if the finish is close and it is important to get that horses head in front. Jockeys ride very short and their weight is in the stirrups, whereas a hack rider has the weight in the saddle. A jockey will stand in the stirrups when the race is run and s/he is saluting the crowd.

INSIDE RAIL: Every racetrack has an inside rail, mostly just called 'the rail'. Imagine a track that spans the circumferance of a round paddock or oval. You have to have a white rail that separates the track off from the rest of the ground. Of course there is also a rail or a fence that separates the track from the crowd, but this is well out from where the horses run. This rail used to be made of wood and was pretty dangerous if a horse or jockey collided with it. Now they are made of aluminium which springs back when something hits it. The tracks are often sloped slightly in towards the rail and after very wet weather becomes muddy and heavy. Then the race club may decide to erect a false rail, which is some distance inside the rail. The outside is simply a term that describes the end of the lineup (the last horse in a line away from the rail). All horses try to get to the rail as soon after the start that they can because it is a shorter distance to run. If a horse is boxed in on the rail and can't get through the pack, the jockey will have to go to the outside of the other horses, which will give it a longer distance to travel.

The jockey steers the horse to the outside, just like you would steer a car. Only he does this with the bit in the horse's mouth whereas you would do it with a wheel.

Going back to someone's previous post. Jockeys here when they are apprentices are pretty well treated. Trainers have to house and feed them well, see that they complete their education and teach them how to dress properly and behave themselves. Here strong helmets and flak jackets are mandatory for all jockeys. Recently they have introduced a scheme whereby they educate jockeys about their options when their racing days are over.

Smiling, Barbara

ELLA, I have not left but am so enjoying this discussion so much as we have such experts here on horse racing that I just listen, (read) and enjoy and Learn.

A picture of me and the days of delivering the newspaper does not belong here But I Do as I love Horses. Smile. I am sad about SeattleSlew. Love this discussion.

Ginger

Ella,

I BELIEVE, but am not sure, that a Jockey can only stand up in the stirrups (irons) after the horse crosses the finish line. If he stands up earlier than that he is disqualified. I think that a major race was lost because the Jockey got confused and stood up too soon.

Anyone who has more knowledge please correct this if I am wrong.

Tiger Tom

Tom

That would be Willie Shoemaker aboard Gallant Man in 1957 at the Kentucky Derby. He misjudged the finish line and stood up too soon. Another jockey said that he wasn't surprised that it happened as the finish line had been moved but not well marked just that year.

BARBARA, thanks so much for answering all my questions!! I will learn, and am learning from this discussion so many things I never knew about horses and racing. MARGARET AND SUE, or anyone else, you must let us know if what Barbara has told us is true in the USA!

For example, I didn't know (should have thought of it I suppose) that those horses on the outside have a LONGER distance to run than those on the inside! That doesn't seem fair to those horses who have a starting postion way to the outside.

I would straighten out this business if I were into horse racing - HAHAHAAAAA! Why couldn't they angle the starting gate so that each horse beginning from the gate would have an equal distance?

Or better yet, just have a straight-a-way race!!! Now that is the best idea - because there would not be the injuries we see when they all bunch on the inside rail. It would just prove which horse is the fastest and, after all, isn't that what it is supposed to prove?

WHO SHALL I CONTACT TO SUGGEST THIS? Hahahahaaaaaa

But I do like the way jockeys are treated in Australia - wonderful! And what are some of the options that the jockeys have after their racing days are over???? Trainers? What?

Does Australia have the same health plan that England does? If I'm not mistaken everyone is taken care of medically the same - right now I can't think of what that plan is called - is it "socialized" medicine?

You see, that is very important to our jockeys here because each individual must have their own hospitalization plan, either provided by the employer or by some other method. My husband was self-employed and we had to pay for our own medical insurance. You cannot do without it today as medical costs are astronomical!

MARGARET, I need your input here! SUE - do you know if jockeys here in the USA are treated as well?

HELLO TOM - I think you are right, Barbara said as much! HELLO GINGER - am so happy you are enjoying the discussion - no question but what I am, learning so much and enjoying every minute!!

ANN - forget the audio for awhile and stay with us here, you know the history of races! I remember Eddie Arcaro - but why would I? News broadcasts perhaps? Our book mentions him somewhere and I believe he was one of those who contributed $5000 toward ????? Oh, dear, was it the founding of the Jockeys' Guild?

Horses get "colic" just as babies do? And they are dejected and feel ashamed when they lost a race? AH! And the winners "swagger - showoff? What does all that remind you of? If my horse was feeling insecure and sad, I would immediately take him back to the paddock and let him race with my slowest horse - I wouldn't have my horse feeling so down and out! You betcha I wouldn't, particularly if I had paid big bucks for this race horse. He would be feeling proud every day, yes siree!

All of you be thinking of some answers to the questions in the heading. What did Hemingway mean by "living life up?"

Later, eg

I have always assumed that Hemingway was referring to the fact the bullfighter faces death every time he goes into the ring to fight the bull. That they could use their lives up in a split second. Laura Hillenbrand I thought used this as a similie for jockeys who literally face death or injury in a race. Although I don't think that jockeys would think about this much. My brother was a racing car driver in England and I used to often think of this quotation in association with him. He died on the racetrack.

ABOUT MEDICAL INSURANCE: We have a dual system public and private. Everyone is covered for visits to the doctor whereby the doctor bills the government. Doctors are allowed to charge an extra or gap fee which is not very much. Everybody is entitled to public hospital services for free (MEDICARE),but if you have medical insurance you can have better accommodation, go to a private hospital and have a doctor of your own choice. There is quite a waiting list for elective surgery if you have no medical insurance and hospitals are becoming overburdened, some having to close their emergency departments from time to time.

Pensioners and veterans (like me) get all medical and hospital and services like physiotherapy, dieticians, etc. provided and all medications at a very much reduced cost. Veterans can go to private hospitals in the same way as if they had private medical insurance. Even if you have private medical insurance, you will often have to pay an extra amount.

A few years ago Hilary Clinton visited us to study our health system and presented a bill to Congress. However it was rejected.

Hugs Barbara

Ella, I assume that conditions for jockeys have certainly changed since the early days of Red Pollard and George Woolf. I have no contact with racing facilities, only the occasional visit to a track when traveling. However, I don't read of horrible conditions in the sports pages. I would assume in this day journalists would be documenting those conditions and crusading about them.

I've been giving your second question a lot of thought:

"Our book says that jockeys constantly fight fear, as soldiers do in battle. Soldiers are drafted and must perform in battle; however, jockeys perform voluntarily. Do they consider their wives and children in their choice or are they just selfish men?"

Soldiers are no longer drafted. We have an all volunteer army. Even during draft years we had volunteer career soldiers. I was married to a career Naval Officer. Of course he considered me and our children but our country had to come first. I don't consider that selfish, but honorable.

Jockeys are people (now women, too) who love horses and riding. I'm sure they consider their wives and children, but there are times when their jobs will come first. I think women who marry jockeys probably know what they are getting into when they marry them. I thought Pollard's wife, Agnes, had a great deal of sympathy and understanding for his life as a jockey. She was certainly stalwart and stood behind him during the hard times. Sue

HI BARBARA AND SUE!

Thanks so very much for your astute answers to the questions in the heading and, SUE, I was referring to times of war when soldiers are drafted, not the volunteer army we have today. But you answered that question very well and a soldier's duty to his country must come first; however, jockeys ride for excitement, the thrill of it (I have no idea today if they make money at it) and I wondered how their families felt about it!

BARBARA, I'm sorry about your brother death's in England as a race car driver. Yes, Hemingway's quote would apply and as you said - "they could use their lives up in a split second. " Gives one pause when you think about it.

You are a veteran? Tell us about it, when and where you served and - OH, BOY, do we ever remember Hillary Clinton! Bill Clinton told us we were very fortunate to get two lawyers for the price of one in the White House and they were going to reform our health care system in America - Hillary was put in charge and it was disastrous for many reasons! We don't want to get into politics here but the Clinton years were certainly not boring!

WHERE ARE THE REST OF OUR TROOPS TODAY?

Since Seabiscuit is running all these races in 1936 and winning - that was exciting to read about his winning races wasn't it - you feel so proud of our little crooked-legged horse - I thought perhaps you might want to know what else was happening in the world relating to sports!

Sports History, 1936

Jesse Owens attended Ohio State University, in Columbus, Ohio where I live, and is commemorated in many ways on campus; however, I had always heard the story about the snub from Hitler different than what is related at that site. How about you?

Howard must have been rather downhearted when Seabiscuit lost the Santa Anita race at the track that he, Bing Crosby and others, had helped build in 1934.

"For fifteen strides, more than the length of a football field, Pollard remained virtually motionless." And Pollard must have felt terrible knowing it could have been his own fault for not disclosing that he was blind in one eye! How heartbreaking for him!

In reading this book you are up and down emotionally, Hillenbrand does such a grand job of putting the reader right there! Did you smile with me when Pollard, after one of Seabiscuit's winning races, said to reporters that he had so much time left before the other horses caught up to him he could trot off to do some Christmas shopping, pick up his fan mail, and trot right back and win the race. Hahahaha Love his humor!

later, eg

Ella

I've lost connection 4 times today.

However, will try again.

My favorite jockey was Pollard and I wasn't at all surprised at his quip. It is something I would have expected, having grown up amongst that Irish wit.

I often wondered if I could dress like a young boy and become a "girl jockey". I knew it wasn't considered a job for a female back then, but I was no more than 90-100 lbs all my life, 5'2", so I may have gotten away with it.

Just a fun daydream!!

Please let me indulge by telling you what a great job you are doing.

Another Thought struck me as I read the passage where Seabiscuit took Whiskers in his teeth and shook the daylights out of the nanny and then threw her out into the barn isle.

Could it be that it was not "horse sense" but "horse sense of humor"? If so, little wonder that Red Pollard and Seabiscuit got along so famously!

I loved that passage.

You sound just like the girl in National Velvet - do you remember the film? Elizabeth Taylor and Mickey Rooney. She lived out her dream and won the Grand National, but sadly was disqualified when they found out she was a girl.

I believe that horses have a sense of humour, or at least a sense of mischief.

Barbara

However, any horse I have ever seen shake a goat wants to kill it. So, I saw a touch of meanness in Seabiscuit. However, he was a stud horse, wasn't he? No stud horse can ever be completely trusted. Actually, no horse. I read of a lady that had a close relationship with her horse for over 15 years and one day he bit off her nose without warning. She underwent many a surgical procedure to try and construct a new nose.

Ella...I don't know some of the questions about jockeys that you ask. I have never been too fond of them as a group. They are loyal while they aren't making much money but let them get on a winning streak and you never have seen such a little bantie rooster struting around. King of the hill. Lots of us call it Small Man Syndrome. I have no idea why they ride horses. I think, personally, that it makes them feel powerful and big riding those big and powerful animals. I have yet to find a jockey that I really like. The women of the ones I know tend to be women with bad reputations. I hope this isn't too blunt but that how my experience has been.

I have to be honest and say that I am still just on chapter 10 so can't add much to the discussion. Just not time to read right now.

Has their been any of the book dedicated to grooms? They are the ones that fall in love with the horses and devote all their time to keeping their horses happy and content. A good groom is worth more than a 100 jockeys, in my opinion. I use to tip the jockey a nice amount when they won for me. Well, they show no loyalty, so now the groom gets it. By the way, a trainer that has 100 horses can't possibly know about all those horses. He would have a hard time telling you the name of any particular horse unless it is his stars. However, the grooms know. Does it ever say in the book how many horses Tom had besides Seabiscuit? I imagine it was only a few.

I do believe that the Hemingway quote is because a jockey does face death everytime he goes on the track just like a matador faces death everytime he goes in the ring.

HI PRANCER! Horses have a sense of humor? Is that what that is when they make that hee-haw sound? There's no word I can think that would describe it! It's more like heeeeeeeeeee and then a snort!

My sentiments exactly, MARTEX! No horse can be trusted! Not by me anyway. Someone said earlier that a horse senses fear and cannot be controlled then - could it be they are afraid of someone like me?

But that is funny that you mention a horse owner who got her nose bit off, because the daughter of a good friend of mine had her nose bit off by the family dog!!! A lovable quiet dog - but the daughter bent down while the dog was eating and he just bit off her nose - the parents picked the nose part up and the hospital sewed it back on, but that can happen, I think, with most animals that are nervous, bothered, worred or whatever.

I smiled at your description of the jockeys - "little bantie roosters strutting around. King of the hill. Lots of us call it Small Man Syndrome." There is something to that I'm sure. Have any of you known small men? When I was young and dating, we had good friends that we doubled dated with from time to time (what an old-fashioned word that is), and he was very short - a delightful fellow and we had a lot of fun - but he "cussed" awful! Every sentence almost and we always said it was a compensation for being short - now that I read that over it doesn't make much sense - but it's true, and after awhile you became accustomed to his speech.

Heavens, no, you are not too blunt! That's your experience - we all appreciate people who "tell it like it is." Do you think that Hillenbrand has glamorized these jockeys a bit much?

She does give us a look into the life of jockeys when she describes their eagerness to go to the Molino Rojo, the house of prostitution in Mexico, and hang out there (probably whether they were married or not) - they lived hard and high, roaming the town at night, chasing naked women down corridors, drinking, etc. I'm sure there were some who were the exception to the rule, but life for jockeys may not have changed all that much.

BTW - we are just coming up on Chapter 10, so stay with us.

I tried all over the Internet to find a picture of War Admiral - do you know they are copyrighted and we can't use? One site was selling them! I wanted a picture to put in our header, but…….

HI BARBARA! Yes, I remember Elizabeth Taylor in National Velvet - was that her first film? She was lovely! She doesn't appear much anymore, perhaps because of age? Might as well face it and I admire those older actresses who do and stay active, don't you?

~1937~

In the winter of 1937 America was in the seventh year of the most catastrophic decade in its history. The economy had come crashing down, and millions upon millions of people had been torn loose form their jobs, their savings, their homes. A nation that drew its audacity from the quintessentially American belief that success is open to anyone willing to work for it was disilusioned by seemingly intractable poverty. The most brash of peoples was seized by despair, fatalism, and fear."

Barbara and Carolyn and any others residing in other countries, I feel it is safe to say that this was a world-wide depression, am I correct?

Having been born in 1928 I was almost 10 at this time and I have memories of men coming to the back door of my grandmother's house, where I was living at the time, and she always gave them a plate of food while they sat on the back porch. They were always grateful, polite and never gave anyone trouble - it's hard to imagine that in these days, isn't it? How many homes would open the door to a dirty, ragged fellow who was asking for food? We didn't lock doors in those days - change - the times change - constant change - some good, some bad.

Do you remember the first time you went to movies? How much did you pay? Do you remember the radio in your home? Where it sat? What did you listen to?

Our book says: "Enabling virtually all citizens to experience noteworthy events simultaneously and in entertaining form, radio created a vast common culture in America, arguably the first true mass culture the world had ever seen."

Hillenbrand says "arguably" in that sentence. Do you agree with the statement? Did we get world-wide news on radio? Did it create a world-wide culture?

(sorry for the long post - ella)

Ella

I love your imitation of a horse laughing!!!

And ladies, the next best thing to being a girl jockey would probably be to look like Elizabeth Taylor!!! WOW!

Love all the posting and am learning a lot more than I ever dreamed.

I was wondering the same thing about grooms. Otis, Seabiscuit's groom is only mentioned briefly and yet it said that he was devoted to the horse. I assume that he was replaced later on, as it mentions another name as the groom. I would have liked the author to tell us more about Otis.

About jockeys' fees. Here it is paid according to the award. 10percent of the stake for a winning ride and a set fee, (I don't know how much now) for a losing ride.

MOTHERS' DAY HERE TODAY. I am being taken to lunch at a restaurant that is located in a plant nursery (getting common here) by my family. My youngest grandaughter will pick me up and drop me home again. There will be two mothers, me and my daughter, and a prospective mother, my grandaughter,Lindi, who is expecting her first child in October.

Barbara

I have just caught up with your long message, and would love to respond right now, but have to go now to shower and dress ready for my grandaughter to pick me up. Yes the depression was world wide and I think racing was an escape from the dreariness of life in this country too.

BUT I WILL COME BACK AND POST MY ANSWERS TONIGHT IF I AM NOT TOO TIRED.

BARBARA

HAPPY MOTHERS DAY TO ALL OF THE MOTHERS AMONGST US!

BARBARA- What a grand idea to have a restaurant or a little tea house in a nursery! I've never seen it here - have any of you? It would be such a pretty place to have lunch.

Enjoy your family and ask them what they are reading? We are always asking for suggestions for books - see the Suggestion Box in the header? Just click on it and post a book you'd like to discuss. We do consider them.

All of you - I know you read a great deal, please post one in the Suggestion Box in the header! We need your input!

What are all of you doing today?

We used to have a tea house (which is just for lunch here) in a pretty little town not far from here (men didn't like it - it was just for the ladies) and it was started by two English sisters who came over because their children were here. Desserts to die for! And one of them sang beautifully - if you asked her for a song, she would just stop wherever and sing it out. I loved that place, but it's no longer there, darn!

Do you know the horse in the header? You are probably right!

One of the things that I have found intriguing about this book,is the manner in which the author has played the story of Seabiscuit against the current events of the time.

I have a life long interest in the history of this particular time and I believe that L.H. has been teaching history as a horse story,and I find it fascinating.

I can remember listening to horse races on the radio with the great announcer Clem McCarthy. I think it takes a special talent to announce a horse race & how McCarthy could build the suspense up to the finish... How many remember Spike Jones & his horserace song?

Ed, I loved Spike Jones' silly songs. I can hear "And here comes Beetlebomb" in the voice from the record even now. That horse racing song was an oldie goldie, IMO.

Since it's Mother's Day, I was thinking of SeaBiscuit and his mother. We don't hear as much about the mares as we do the sires (especially the influence of Man O' War as being particularly difficult). This seems like a strange thing to me. The colts are never left with their fathers, but are raised beside the mothers. Shouldn't the mares have the greater influence on the young? Or is this the old saw that Nature is greater than Nurture? Are there any opinions on this from those of you who have experience with raising thoroughbreds? Sue

Beetlebomb is a great survivor. Nearly every Melbourne Cup Day here it is played on some radio station or other. As a matter of fact, one of the lines that Ella quoted some time back I think came from that piece. It is so funny that I still get a laugh out of it.

It is interesting about the influence of mares and sires. After many years of breeding horses of all sorts, I can't help but be impressed at the characteristics, both physical and mental that sires stamp on their progeny. That doesn't mean to say that mares don't have some influence too, but the sires' influence seems to be stronger. Just think of the temperament that Man o'War passed down the line to his progeny. That is why I thought that War Emblem was probably of this line as I read somewhere that he was a difficult horse to handle.

ELLA: The lunch was superb, food was good, but the surroundings with all the flowers and ferns, bouganvilleas of all shades and the most deligtful setting on a verandah with water fountains. It was a great day except there was such a crowd there, that we had to wait a long time to be served.

BARBARA

We have cafes in every large nursery! LOL Did we get the idea from you or did you get it from us!

Jockeys - My father was a gambling addict mostly on the track. That is why I hate racing! However we met quite a few jockeys and trainers and yes they were pretty rough specimans. One trainer whose sons were jockeys I really hated. He whipped his kids with a horse whip. He had the meanest demeanour I ever saw. He looked mean! Heavens knows what he did to the horses! I felt sorry for the boys and felt they had been made what they were not born like it.

The depression- Yes it was a world wide depression.

Women Jockeys - have not found them to be disreputable here. Some of them came from wealthy racing or farming stock. They are girls who love horses and love to ride them.

I loved the way Seabiscuit had his entourage of animal friends, Pumpkin and the two dogs. He must have been quite gentle to allow one of the dogs to sleep curled up with him. Most of the horses I knew were not keen on dogs. My BIL's dog lived with us for a while and he used to go in front of the horses in a true trotting gait like he was part of a parade. He was a Great Dane/Shepherd cross and was a big brown dog who was well known in the area for his habit of making friends and dropping in - sometimes to stay the night. My BIL was forever looking for him. One of his friends was the local postmistress and he would visit the mailroom and sleep away the afternoon. He would also turn up on my doorstep after I married at dusk asking to stay the night. What a character!

I have to say that many of the jockeys I met were hard drinkers and cussers too!

Carolyn

We have a few of your top jockeys here and they have done very well and I think quite popular with the crowds. I don't know them personally, but they always conduct themselves very well on the track and in interviews on TV and radio. The Racing Board, or whatever it is called are very strict on behaviour, so at least they have to appear to be well behaved. You will recall that your Sheila Laxon who was a jockey in NZ trained the last winner of the Melbourne Cup and that was a very emotional moment for the crowds here.

I suspect that we might have nicked the idea of restaurants in plant nurseries from you, but I don't know. What I do know that in the several years that they have been going they are getting more and more expensive. They are only open during the day.

IS THAT SEABISCUIT??

OR IS IT WAR ADMIRAL??

I can't remember which chapter it was, but I thought that L.H. gave wonderful descriptions of the races. I rode every step of the way in the hundred grander, and my heart stood still when Seabiscuit lost momentum and lost. I thought the other races were well described too.

Talking of horses and their pals. Sometimes we had horses who liked hens, or dogs, or cats or other horses. A friend also had a horse who would not go anywhere at all without his donkey friend. One time we bred German Shepherds and two of the bitches would whelp at the same time, with the result that there might be ten or more puppies playing around in the horse yard, often in tight little clusters. My daughter's mare would walk in amongst them, daintily picking up her hooves and stepping amongst them She never touched one.

Barbara

Barbara - Sheila is a real lady. I admire her because she truly loves her horses. I think her horses do well partly because of the way she cares about them they want to please. We were very proud of her here in NZ when she had that big win!

Carolyn

HELLO, ED, happy to see you in our discussion, hope you can come back - but I understand you are particularly busy at the moment. And I agree with you that this author has blended the depression era and Seabiscuit's story marvelously. It was one the things that prompted me to get the book because, like you, I love history of any era, but this period in America and the world is especially interesting, perhaps because either we or our parents were affected.

Good question, Sue! I hope you got a response that was satisfactory from those who know horses and their ancestry. I loved your nature vs. nurture - smiled at that phrase! Need it today, we are so sick here of storms and rain - all of southern Ohio is getting flooded. Fortunately we live in the central part but storms, storms, storms! Keeping me off the Internet!

BARBARA said "but the sires' influence seems to be stronger. Just think of the temperament that Man o'War passed down the line to his progeny." Yes, it seems the sires always get the credit for both good and bad characeristics of the colts and why is that anyway?

HELLO CAROLYN! - New Zealand has the cafes also in nurseries? Well, I know some of the biggest in my area because it's one place I love to go and shop - over the years I have had different gardens all over our 2 acres and I have bought, transplanted, cut down, divided, moved every plant ever heard of in the midwest of America - just might mention that and see what the owners say.

WHO IS THAT HORSE IN THE HEADING?

ENTER THE CONTEST - YOU MIGHT WIN SOMETHING??? Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeee SNORT, Snort!

What is a handicap race? The race that Seabiscuit lost was the Santa Anita Handicap - not the hundred grander I think - Oh, dear I'll go back and look that up! Are they different?

Remember that Grantland Rice, the foremost sports writer in the country, accused Pollard of negligence or overconfidence? That is going to be turned around in Chapter 10!

This is getting too long again! And storms are coming in, must get off. Just wanted to comment on the owner of Man o' War and the fact that he was 75 when he bought the horse in 1918 at an auction for $5000! Do any of you know anything about this Samuel Riddle - the owner? That would make a good story or has it already been told?

later, ella

Hi, I am really enjoying this book so much-especially the descriptions of Seabiscuit's "character".I could really empathize with his love of sleeping. My own encounter with horses came in college when we had riding class one year for physical ed and I can remember when all the gals were introduced to their horses coming up the ramp of the stable rind and when the riding master announced my horse-War Cloud-I remember hearind this what sounded to me like snorting or bellowing and there was this huge black mare-Well,it turned out she was the mildest mannered of all the stable and would perform miracles for me if I made sure she was in the lead.One day I forgot-oops-a mad lunge thru Philadelphia's Fairmount Park. I'll never forget that.

WELCOME TUDY to our discussion!

We are so pleased to have you aboard and loved hearing of your personal experiences with horses - your snorting, bellowing WAR CLOUD taught you to be a leader, huh!! hahaaaa

Just finished re-reading Chapter 9 - it was the hundred-grander that Seabiscuit lost to that "eastern horse" Rosemont. Was Pollard to blame, was the horse to blame - all speculation and the horse can't talk!

See you all tomorrow hopefully, if the weather gives me a break!

In Australia nearly all races are handicaps. Weight is imposed on a horse by the handicapper according to the horse's previous performance. So if a horse has won 'good' races, it is likely to carry a big weight as a against a horse who has not won a race or only a lowly rated race. We also have Weight for Age Handicaps, which is self explanatory e.g. the weight carried is relted to the age of the horse.

The exception to handicaps here are 2-year-old races when the youngsters all carry the same weight. It used to be 8 stone.

Snort, snort is a lot better than he hawe, or whatever the last description of horse noise was. lol

I must go back and see which race that was where Seabiscuit ran out steam or whatever. I probably got so caught up in the running of the race that I mistook it.

TUDY: Loved your story about your experience with War Cloud. How nice to see you here.

Barbara

You snuck up on me. I posted my message, I edited it and when I re-posted it, you were there. Amazing program this Seniornet.

Ella, you know that I am a sucker for a challenge. Is it Man O' War?

Hold your strength till the barriers fly,

then close with the leaders eye to eye.

Thundering hooves and the mad jammed race,

blood in the nostrils, sweat in the face.

And children, remember wherever you are,

you carry the blood of Man o' War.

~Anonymous

Thought you might be interested in this site dedicated to women jockeys.

The Female on the Horse-Women Jockeys

Here is another very interesting site and if you click on the Seabiscuit pages you can read more about Grantland Rice's newspaper story of the 1938 race between Seabiscuit and War Admiral. Also, on one of the pages is a list of other horses saddled by Tom Smith. You have to scroll the left side of the page to find the clickables dedicated to Seabiscuit. There is also another article by Laura Hilenbrande on that page.

More about Seabiscuit

Posted a message to Callie of Oklahoma on the wrong page.Barbara

I had been trying to remember the name of the female jockey who rode in several races we saw in Seattle in the 80s. I looked at Ann's link to the Female Jockey website. The jockey was Julie Krone who has become a Hall of Fame Jockey. She rode 2 horses that day. One won and I think the other placed or showed. We bet on both her horses to Show, so won a few dollars back of our wagering money. Sue

Is Tammy Purcell. She is terrific. But riding a quarter horse is different than riding a thoroughbred. Shorter distances so stamina is not a big thing. But that girl can ride.

Also, Julie Krone was always an outstanding jockey. Only female to ride in the Derby and finish 3rd, I believe. My memory is not all that great anymore.

Ella, I would say that picture is of Seabiscuit. I would hope, since the discussion is about him.

I just finished through chapter 11. I finally warmed up to Mr. Howard because of his concern for Red Pollard. He finally appears human to me.

I have been talking to my trainer as he is back now from Lone Star Park for a few days. We went out to dinner the last 2 nights. I am quizzing him about jockeys as I have never thought to much about them, to be honest. He says that it is nearly impossible for them to get insurance as their occupation is too dangerous. That is where the Jockey Guild is a big thing for them. also, many of the more prosperous jockeys really are generous and give many of their purses to the guild. Pat Day, who is a very Christian man, is very generous. They take care of their own.

Also, he tells me they have strict physicals every year. Also, they have random drug tests...this I knew.

Here at Retama Park when I walk by the jockey's room (really a building) the most wonderful cooking smells come from there. They eat very good but he says without exception, every jock he has known, eat and then make themselves throw it back up. They also have a sauna in the building.

Does anyone know what happened to the horse that Red Pollard was riding when he got hurt? I didn't see what the outcome for her was.

I was quite surprised that Mr. Howard could decide what races that Seabiscuit ran in and not Tom Smith. I have never known a trainer that didn't make that decision. I was rather cold towards Mr. Howard when he was going to run Seabiscuit no matter what the weight assigned, even when Tom did not approve. Maybe because I have always been more concerned for the animal rather than the money.

What does betting on a horse to show mean? We don't have that, and we don't have claiming races.

Barbara

Show means the horse comes in third.

We have many claiming races. Do you understand about them? Say for example a horse is running for $20,000. You decide you want that horse so your put up $20,000 in the racing office and fill out a claim ticket, which must be placed in the claim box within no less than 15 minutes before a race. *in Texas, anyway*..may vary in other states. When the horse goes out on the track to run, you own the horse. If he breaks a leg, etc. he is still your horse. If he wins, you do not get the purse. the old owner gets it. Sometimes, more than one person wants to claim the same horse. You shake for the horse. I don't know what that means. I have claimed many a horse but never anyone else has wanted the horse. I don't know that many details about that side of racing. I handled the paperwork angle and I was more into the breeding aspect and my partner is in the racing part. I am not that fond of the racing. Maybe if I had a Seabiscuit.

A Seabiscuit?? If only.

Who decides how much the horse is worth, or is that the $20,000 the stake? Barbara

Usually a horse is moved down in the ranks according to his chances of doing well in a race. For example, they may be old stakes horses or allowance horses that can't do well anymore in such races. They drop down in class until they reach a level at where they can win. Sometimes, they are placed in a cheap race to try and "steal" a purse. Hopefully, they won't get claimed. However, if they are claimed, you can't do anything about it. There are claiming prices from $2,500 to $100,000. Maybe more, I don't know. Here in Texas, it averages $5,000 to $30,000. Depends on the racetrack and the class of horses run there. Texas is still in the lower classes mostly.

Also, the trainer has much to do with deciding where a horse belongs. If a horse is not doing well, the owner will usually agree to drop the claiming price. It is so much easier to win a $5,000 claiming race than a $l5,000 claiming race even.

The purse is not the claiming price. The purse depends on the track and is much lower for a $5,000 claiming race and goes up accordingly.

I hope I explained that well enough. I have a hard time with the written word at times.

Martex,

Excellent explanation. I always wondered about that myself. I have heard of Claiming races but always thought that the claim was put in after the race not before.

Tiger Tom

Thankyou for that explanation. Have never had anyone to ask about this before, so now I know.

I was almost in tears, at least I had a lump in my throat, when I read about the race with Woolf aboard. I could just imagine his frustration with that outsider leaning on him and not letting him run. Jockeys could get away with that sort of trick years ago, but now if that happened in a race,here anyway, both horses would have been disqualified. One for interference and Woolf for using his whip on the other jockey. Also the trainer would not be allowed to change the jockey's gear (white cap) without declaring it and it being announced to the public.

We had a famous case here some years ago when a jockey was put out for life. He grabbed hold of the foot of the jockey on the horse in front of him and held on and the camera caught the incident. This was in one of the Group 1 races, so there would have been a lot of money riding on the horse's back.

ELLA: That has to be War Admiral - aren't those Riddle's colours?

Barbara

Someone was asking me whether we still had kangaroos and I can't remember whether it was here or not,so am posting in two places.

Yes we still have kangaroos, but they don't roam the streets of the cities as some people imagine. Kangaroos are the source of continual debate between the farmers who consider them to be a pest and the animal welfare people, who think we should move out ("it was their country first") and let them take over. At the moment there is a great stoush going on about kangaroos. In an Army Base called Puckapunyl there are 80,000 kangaroos on the range, many of them starving and diseased and completely over running the town. The Government has decided to cull by shooting, 40,000 of them. The Animal Welfare people want some other solution. I think something has to be done on a national basis not to let this sort of situation get out of hand. We need a long term plan.

Barbara

CONGRATULATIONS BARBARA!

You will get your prize as soon as my computer allows me to stay connected for a little while, but don't expect much - nothing like a few hundred dollar bills or anything - or I should say pounds shouldn't I! Hahaha -

I have tried numerous ways to stay connected and I keep getting thrown off - Oh, Boy! Will try to post a little - hurriedly!

THANKS, ANN - for the links, I read them all!

AndTHANKS TO BARBARA AND MARTEX - we always learn something when you two are conversing, so please continue!

HELLO TOM!

Let me quote something here, if I may:

"….in the spring of 1934 a regally bred mare named Brushup had foaled a near-black colt, a son of Man o' War….a glittering thing…..the picture of exquisite, streamlined elegance, light and fine and quick. He moved like a bird: flickering, darting, fluttering…..the foal grew up and Riddle named him War Admiral. He had the same imperious, lordly way of his father".

Unless I had read this book, I would never have thought to put the adjectives - glittering, exquisite, elegance - in a sentence describing a horse or to say he moved like a bird - a flickering, darting, fluttering bird! Is that description a bit much or do you horse lovers feel that way about new colts?

The word "get" in this sentence is new to me, although I understand that it means progeny - have you heard it before? But while many of Man o' War's get were the best of their generations, none compared to their sire.

Seabiscuit certainly did very well with all those races in the East beating every horse he encountered even though he had been assigned the highest weight in virtually every race, at times carrying over 20 pounds more than his rivals.

"By the rule of thumb every two to three pounds slows a horse by a length at 8-10 furlongs (a mile to a mile and a quarter)…..Seabiscuit was running with massive handicaps."

Whoever explained the "handicap races" to me - I finally understand!

Is the Pimlico race track in Baltimore still a popular one? Wasn't that an interesting story about Alfred Gwynne Vanderbilt, Jr? Just two years ago, we visited the Biltmore House in North Carolina - the largest privately owned mansion in the USA - huge place and landscaping and acreage galore and they just completed building a lovely hotel there - AND THE VANDERBILTS STILL OWN IT ALL!

More later - ella!

BARBARA - your kangaroos are in the same situation as our deer - we have too many of them and yet people make such a fuss when either city, state or federal authorities attempt to cull them out in some manner. A year or two ago authorities were going to shoot some deer in a city park - you should have heard the cries of the people. The park people finally carted some off in the dead of night without any publicity - the media certainly played it up - caused a furor here!

Never heard the word "stoush" before - but I know what it means! Hahaha

Barbara and Martex: My understanding of a "show" bet means you're betting on the horse to come in first, second, or third. You will only receive the pay-off for "show" which is much less than you would win if you actually picked "win" or "place" correctly. It's a way to hedge your bet. In other words you are getting a third place pay-off if your horse is one of the top 3 finishers. Additionally, a horse picked to place must come in first or second to get the "place" pay-off. Correct me if I am mistaken, anyone. Sue

You can bet just for show or just for place. You can bet across the board but it is not necessary.

However, if you bet just show, you have to pick the show horse not the winning horse. If you bet place, you have to pick the 2nd place horse, not the winner.

When you bet across the board (lst, 2nd, and 3rd) then you would collect all three bets on the winner.

Whatever horse you name on your bet will be the one you collect on. Say you bet the #4 horse to win, Place, and show. If he wins, you win all three bets. If you bet the #4 horse to win and place, you collect win and place. If you bet the #4 horse to win and the #3 horse to place, then they have to finish that way and you only get paid on the number you bet on.

I think I am just confusing you but it is confusing. Maybe the Daily Racing Form on the internet would have a better explanation. Just know that you don't get nothing for nothing. To collect on a horse, his number has to be on the ticket and on the position he was in when he crossed the line.

Show bets are usually not smart bets as they aren't big payoffs.

In the race in Chapter 12 where he is ridden by George Woofe. That horse gave everything he had. That was superb writing. Of course, the author had no way to know the complete scenario but she did a great job of describing how it more or less was. I wanted to shake that jockey that tried to keep Seabiscuit from winning.

I am starting to think that Seabiscuit might have been the greatest horse ever to run on a racetrack.

I am amazed how Tom Smith could have "secret" workouts for the horse. How he galloped him at night or odd times in the afternoon. That would not happen today At a racetrack, the track is closed except early in the mornings up until l0::30 am usually. However, there are still tricks done. Some trainers have been known to substitute one horse for another, which if they get caught, they are in big trouble. but there will always be some sort of cheating in all endeavors, not just horseracing. I am not condoning it. In fact, one of the reasons I am losing interest.

That is a very complicated system of betting. Here you can bet for a win, a place or each way which is a win or a place. We pay for third if there are the required number of horses in the race and if not there is no third dividend. We also have a quinella, which is first and second (in whatever order) and a trifecta (also in any order.) I am learning.

ELLA: Oh I thought at least I would get a diamond ring. FOCL Never mind you can pay me in dollars (American) We haven't had pounds here since some time in the 1960s. hahahaha

You are right about the word 'get'. I think only applied to stallions.

STOUSH: Aussie slang for fight. Howeve also means an artillery bombardment - probably from WW1

I thought that whole chapter about the races that Seabiscuit just lost was probably the best in the book. You get the feeling that L.H. had a real empathy with horses. Her description of the foal was just beautiful.

Barbara

A BEAUTIFUL RED ROSE FOR BARBARA just went up in the heading! It doesn't smell as sweet (actually it doesn't smell at all - haha ) as the real thing, but it's the thought that counts! Hahah

You don't have pounds anymore? Don't the English? Or am I so very behind the times. Oh, dear!!! I'm losing it - well, I knew that!

Just read your comments which are wonderful and will be back later with a few of my own - must go outside today to work - a sunny day for a change! Am going to do some planting!

I did mean to THANK, ANN for giving us those links about Seabiscuit and I loved that poem! Where did you find that?

And those of you who are lurking on the outside, please come in and post something - we'd love to have you here!

later, eg

All,

Read an interesting article in the Sports section of the Newspaper, today, of a horse that will be running in the Preakness:

The Dam of this horse had legs so crooked that the owners sold it for one dollar. A woman bought the horse for a dollar, bred her and got a horse that has won a number of races and returned a good deal of money.

Now, the horse will be running in the Preakness.

Not bad for a cooked legged Mare to drop a foal that is a winner. Never can tell. Certainly not by looks.

The reason I haven't put in names is that I don't have the paper in front of me and I am too lazy to run downstairs at the time. Later, I will post the names of Dam and Colt

Tiger Tom

Ella, that poem came from a site dedicated to Man 'O War.

Sorry to have left this discussion but my computer still isn't working so am using Ralph's and its not always available. Talk to y'all later!

All,

Colt's name is Magic Weisner and the Dam was Jazema.

Jazema had legs so crooked that it was thought that she would never amount to anything. She was owned by Ahmad Foustok whose Trainer was James Simpson.

After being bought for one dollar Jazema ran in midlevel claiming races and won 14 of 68 starts and earned $89,199 Not too shabby for a one dollar horse.

Magic Weisner, the offspring of Jazema, has earned upwards of $200,000.

Nancy Alberts bought Jazema for one dollar, trained and ran her in some races and bred her. Magic Weisner is the result.

Alberts has Magic Weisner entered in the Preakness.

Tiger Tom

oh dear, oh dear. I am in Australia, not England - a few thousand miles apart haha. What a beautiful rose, I swear I can smell it all the way over here.

TOM: What a wonderful story about the mare with the crooked legs.

ANN: Thank you for that beautiful poem

Am about to start on Chapter 13. Even though this is the second reading, I can't put the book down.

Barbara

Oh, come on, BARBARA - I know where you are at, but aren't you still somewhat affiliated with England like Canada is, perchance? I have a little sense of history, and know that you are all independent, but you have NO TIES to Great Britain at all? You don't sing GOD SAVE THE QUEEN? I thought you might use the same currency! What do I know? Do tell me what your currency is? Is it truly dollars? The only times I've been overseas was to Rome and Venice and I know where they are also - WAY OVER THE OTHER OCEAN! Hahaha

WHO-EEEE, TOM! That is some story - a one dollar horse who made $89,000 and had a crooked leg to boot! And then was bred and the colt earned $200,000! GEE! Anytime any of you horse lovers see a crooked-leg horse - BUY IT!!!

Do you, by any chance, know this Nancy Alberts or is she someone everyone in the horse breeding business knows? There's a story there for someone to write!

Thanks for bringing that here, Tom. I never read the sports pages, do any of you?

I was thinking in bed last night that a comment was made here that horse racing is going out of fashion - down the tubes - not much of a sport. Could it be we don't have any underdogs to cheer for, or one that is special to the public?

I think of baseball in much the same way; when I was young it seemed to be the #1 sport of America - it had its Babe Ruths and Lou Gehrig, the Brooklyn Dodgers - real heros and they were something that people talked about. I don't hear much about baseball anymore either - do any of you? Do we have one hero in baseball that the nation loves for some reason?

Football - yes!! Everywhere football.

Barbara - what is the #1 sport in Australia?

Martex - what is it in Texas? And is the whole state of Texas mighty proud to have one of their own as President? The first since LBJ right?

You did admire, Martex, the race that Woolfe ran on Seabiscuit - Hillenbrand says"

"In the middle stage of a grueling distance race, Seabiscuit had broken the half-mile world record by two seconds, the equivalent of more than 13 lenths. It may be the greatest display of raw speed ever seen in Thoroughbred racing. That is quite a tribute!

What I most admire about the book so far, and the writing too, is the feeling you get of a family - an odd family to be sure - but Howard, Smith and Pollard all working together towards one goal! They all respect each other, they are a tight-knit family, - Howard said "No Pollard, No Seabiscuit" when Pollard was punished in that one race (I never understood what exactly he had done even though I read the thing over and over)!

But what a scene this must have been, picture it in your mind!

Fair Knightess's forelegs (a horse Pollard was riding) were kicked out from under her. Unable to catch herself, she pitched into a somesault at 40 mph. (can you see a horse somersaulting?)....Pollard went down with her, vanishing under her crashing body. She came down onto him with terrific force and skidded to a stop.

Did you think that was all? No, listen to the rest of it!

Behind, Maurice Peters, aboard Mandingham, saw her plow into the track and knew he could not avoid her. Mandingham saw her too, and gathered himself up to make a desperate leap over her as she lay on the track. But just as he reared up and launched himself into the air, Fair Knightess thrust her forelegs out in front of her and lifted herself up directly into Mandingham's path. Mandingham slammed into her. The force of the collision knocked Fair Knightess down the track and flipped her upside down. Pollard couldn't get out of her way. Her full weight came down on his chest.

It was terrible for Pollard who suffered severe injuries and doctors feared he may not ride again for at least a year.

But the horse - IMAGINE! First turning a somersault, and wondering how that happened! and then trying to get up and being flipped upside down! What kind of maneuvers were going on - the poor horse!!! I bet he hoped he never saw a track again.

I don't think the book states what ever happened to that horse!

It'S SO MUCH FUN COMING IN HERE EVERY DAY - I THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR ALL THE CONVERSATION AND AM LEARNING SO MUCH FROM ALL OF YOU. AND I'LL LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU TOMORROW!

eg

Martex, thanks for the information about win, place and show. Now here's another question about show. If you bet on the winning horse on a show ticket, do you get a pay out, but of course at a lesser amount than if you'd bet him/her to win?

Ella, I read the sports page every day. I look for the baseball stats, especially the Atlanta Braves, the NY Yankees, Chicago Cubs, Cleveland Indians, and Cincinnati Reds (but I still don't think Pete Rose should get in the BB Hall of Fame). I always look for basketball news, especially about Women. I'm a big WNBA fan and try to watch all their televised games every summer. Then I look for any news about SEC teams, especially my two alma maters, University of South Carolina and Auburn University. I also like feature stories on the sports pages. There have been a few horse racing stories about the upcoming Preakness in our paper, too. Sue

That's great, Sue! My daughter does, also, and I remember my MIL telling me I should get my nose out of a book and watch baseball games on TV! She loved baseball - gol-lee, she lived to be 94, maybe I should stop reading? Hahaha

The things a person's learns in book discussions always amazes me! I just learned all about Australian currency - when would I have ever thougt of that! Well if I had plans to go to Australia I might - and how I wish I did!! Especially in our horrible winters here!

BARBARA, THANKS FOR STIMULATING MY INTEREST:

Here is the link to Australian currency:

Australian currency

And you have no paper currency at all - am I reading this correctly? It's midnight here and I am tired from working outside, so perhaps I'm a bit off my rocker, but here's what I see:

In 1913, the first Commonwealth of Australia Ten Shilling notes were printed in Melbourne. A further three denominations were issued in that year - the One Pound, Five Pound and the Ten Pound notes.The large denomination notes ranging from 20, 50, 100 and 1000 Pound were all in circulation by 1914 and continued until 1938 when the 20 Pound was withdrawn, followed by the 50 and 100 Pound in 1945. (The 1000 Pound note had been withdrawn from general circulation on June 30th. 1915 - all known stocks were destroyed in 1969.)

The remaining Imperial denominations were continued until the major shake-up when decimal currency arrived in 1966, and a completely new philosophy was adopted. This saw the introduction of coins in denominations of 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 and 50 cents and the introduction of notes in 1, 2, 5, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollars.

The $1 and $2 notes were eventually replaced with coins and in recent years the 1 and 2 cent coins have been removed from circulation with amounts rounded up or rounded down to the nearest 5 cents.

When the new polymer plastic technological breakthrough was announced in 1988, the eventual demise of paper currency in Australia was inevitable. The new designs feature eight Australian pioneers who had contributed a great deal to Australia, and I've included some information on who they were and why they have earned their place on our currency.

Ella..you won't want my comment about GW Bush and his presidency. Enough said, huh? LOL.

Sue...I don't quite understand your question:

If you bet on the winning horse on a show ticket, do you get a pay out, but of course at a lesser amount than if you'd bet him/her to win?

If you bet the winning horse only on a show ticket? Well, you would win the show amount, even if he didn't run third. The winner pays 1st, 2nd. and 3rd. However, if you just bet him to win, you get only the win money. In other words, to get 1st, 2nd, and 3rd money, you have to bet across the board.

I haven't read any more. I got to get going. I just finished chapter 13.

I discovered this website today. If you scroll down on the left side, you will find some links to Seabiscuit, including an audio to one of his races. I went there but my comuter froze. I will try again later. Here is the link:

http://www.secondrunning.com/

I think that horse racing has gone the way of the rich and famous. They seem to be the only ones who can afford the buying, training and racing of these very pricey animals. But I still enjoy the Triple Crown coverage and like to be up on the favorites.

For me, baseball is the best game of summer. I watch the Braves and the Cubs the most but will just have on any game when those two teams aren't playing. Something about it is soothing. Of course, I am always watching the stats to see who is where in the standings. We felt very lucky to be in a major league city when we lived in Atlanta and in Los Angeles. And, now that we aren't, we watch the superstations to keep up on our favorite teams.

Martex

Thanks for the Website. I got goosebumps listening to the audio! Just like being there.

Tiger Tom: Thanks, also, for that wonderful story in your post. First dollar ever earned is special - best dollar ever spent, in this case, is some kind of miracle!

I'm loving this discussion more and more and learning as well.

BASEBALL IS ALIVE!

HORSE RACING IS DEAD!

MY DAUGHTER JUST WALKED IN FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND IT IS STARTING TO RAIN OUTSIDE!

I HAVE NOT REVIEWED CHAPTER 13 yet, but will after our dinner.

GLAD TO SEE YOU ALL HERE - BACK LATER, eg

I'll try to answer your curiosity.

Our currency is decimal, 5c, 10c, 20c, 50c, $1,$2 in coins. Dollars - five, ten, twenty, fifty, one hundred in polymer plastic which is a little stiffer than paper and introduced to eliminate forgeries. It also doesn't get raggy like paper money.

Now our links to England - now there is a sore point. We are now like you a very multicultural country, but the links of the older Anglo-Celtic community are stil strong with what they call 'the mother country'. There has been a strong push to make Australia a republic, but with our present very conservative government, this has been foiled. It will come. And rightly so. We haven't had 'God Save the Queen' as our nationalo anthem for many years, our national anthem is 'Advance Australia Fair'.

See you in ch. 13.

Hugs Barbara

In Chapter 13, Hillenbrand is attempting to warm us all for the big race - the great competition between two of the country's favorite horses, War Admiral and Seabiscuit.

Sentences like "The two horses were the talk of the ball and the nation."

Another one - "The prospect of a meeting between the two was becoming an international obsession."

Pollard was finally well enough to travel and so what happens?

The Howards go to Tijuana again and the "road to hell" was paved over by frenzied fans and the racetrack broke its attendance record!

Isn't it sweet that Seabiscuit likes to model for the photographers - do you see that picture of him right before Chapter 13, his ears are up and he is looking directly at the person shooting his picture - a wonderful pose!

But then the sparring begins again between the two owners each demanding something in return for this spectacular - this once-in-a-lifetime race between these two great winning horses.

Have a question! It seems to me that Riddle is more worried about his horse getting injured that Howard is about Seabiscuit and it makes me wonder. What age does a horse usually stop runnning races and become a stud?

Even if the horse gets injured, he would still demand high fees for breeding wouldn't he?

I don't think my heart would make it through a season of this after reading this chapter!!! Either it's raining and the track is too muddy to run or your horse is agitated or something happens to your jockey - he gets punished or injured. No, No, it would far to stressful!

WHERE IS BARBARA?

THANKS, PRANCER, for letting us know you are still here and enjoying the discussion - are you reading the book also? Do you like horses? Attend horse races? Tell us something about yourself, PLEASE? We'd love to get to know you better!

later, eg

Hi Barbara! We were posting together - thanks for enlightening me about the money. Didn't I read that you rounded up your coins to the next denomination - maybe I'm not saying that right. Our government has been attempting to do away with the penny for years - what does it buy? Does somebody stop to pick one up on a sidewalk? (frugal me, yes)

And how interesting that you went to a polymer plastic dollar - it would probably last longer???? I read where our government is going to new dollars - different colors - different everything to avoid forgers. Who knows, we may never be calling them "greenbacks" ever again.

Oh, yes, your republic will come and that will sever the last ties to England and, as you say, rightfully so. What changes you and I in our senior years have seen throughout the world.

Good to see you here!

Well, Ella, we have to pick up any penny we find! Remember: Find a penny, pick it up and all day long you'll have good luck!

I wonder what happens if we don't pick it up? :<)

I have changed my preferences so that Mr Ralph's email address is now mine! He didn't have to offer me his computer twice, believe me! Mine will be down until at least Tuesday.

Yes, the race crowd is certainly warming up for this race. Did you read Grantland Rice's column about it? Its really poetry!

30

My daughter was the groom for a winner here at Scioto Downs in Columbus, then left to get another horse to the track in West Virginia. (same track that was one of Seabiscuit's) She was so covered with mud and rain that her boss,Peggy, decided to take a motel room in W.Va just so they could soak in hot water and wash their hair. Typical women! They didn't even plan on staying the night, as they had to take another horse up to a Cleveland track by the next morning.

I am listening to the qualification ads for the Indy 500. Another race that I am addicted to.

Barbara, I still have in mind to send you that little story about my daughter and her horse and how we got through her teen years while living with those jumpers! Its a hoot!

I did wonder whether the reaspon that Riddle was so reluctant to run War Admiral against Seabiscuit was because he thought Seabiscuit was the better horse.

If we pay by cash the amount is rounded off to the next/last closest coin. $3.44 becomes $3.45 or $3.42 becomes $3.40, darned if I know how they charge $3.43 hahaha If you pay by cheque or credit card the exact amount is charged.

ANN: Look forward to that story about your daughter.

Barbara

Go to this site and read Grantland Rice's newspaper coverage of the 1938 Pimlico Race. It's too good to miss!

Seabiscuit/War Admiral

May someday in Heaven (of course I am going..ha) may I just have the pleasure of kissing Seabiscuit on the nose and saying, "good job, ol boy",

I think War Admiral's picture should come down out of the heading and put the real "star" there. Afterall, it is all about him

GOOD AFTERNOON EVERYONE - I hope you are having better weather where you are.

In our city, in the middle of May, it's cold, damp, dreary and Tom Smith wouldn't have let Seabiscuit run on our track on a day like this!

Did any of you get the idea that the author was deliberately writing too many chapters - filling in the book before the BIG RACE begins; expanding the book, and did you wonder why?

As you finished Chapters 13, 14, 15 and on and on and STILL YOU HAVEN'T ARRIVED AT THE BIG RACE, did you enjoy every bit of it or did you think Hillenbrand was ever going to get the point?

Do you go back to the Source Notes in the back of book often? Our author is amazing! Look at the research she did and after you do that you get an appreciation of each and every word.

ANN - not yet, we are not there yet. I was saving that article until we get to the right place in the book. Appreciate your interest, however!

Were you surprised to learn that a horse is an "animal of prey?" (page 201) If horses were wild, would they kill for food? Isn't that what is meant by an animal of prey? I thought they were vegetarians - but perhaps I am misunderstanding what the word "prey" means?

Can someone enlighten me?

In the first part of the book I had the impression that Seabiscuit was a small horse, but on page 203 he has gotten very heavy - outweighing War Admiral by 80 pounds! Words like "big body, thick neck, and head heavy.

What happened?

later - eg.

Ella, Seabiscuit's weight problems were probably due to all that sleeping and not enough exercise (remember when Smith wouldn't take him out as he wanted to avoid the press?). Sue

We were posting together, MARTEX! Now I see you are ahead of us also! We are not at the race yet, folks!

Let us savor the book and all the work that Laura Hillenbrand put into it, the descriptions of the horses, troubles that the trainers have to deal with in keeping the horse in shape, the worries and anxieties of owners, the life of a jockey.

All those things make the book more interesting, don't you agree?

But yes, it is time to change the heading, I agree! Will do that ASAP.

What is the weather like in Texas? I'm ready to move from Ohio today. Too much rain, cities in the midwest are flooding!

Also, a horse is not fully grown until he is 6 years old. He was maturing and getting the stallion characteristics.

Seabiscuit had a weight problem due to liking to eat. and like Sue says, he was not getting the exercise he needed to stay fit.

HELLO SUE! Undoubtedly that's true! And all that sleeping that Seabiscuit did on the train - I forget how many miles the horse had traveled altogether, but those train trips must have been responsible for some of that weight.

Shall we just stick around and talk? Hahaha We seem to be all here!

It is hot and humid in Texas today. Supposedly, a cold front will be in tonight bringing a chance of rain. We need rain badly. Everything is turning brown and the ground is cracking. Too early for this.

What do you mean, MARTEX - stallion characteristics?

He was maturing into a stud horse. Just like a young teenage boy starts getting characteristics of the "man".

Heavier, big neck are characteristics of a stud horse. I imagine he was getting more aggressive, too. I am still far behind on the reading. I hope tonight to read some more. I am on chapter 14 only so don't know when the big race is.

Disappointed in the Preakness field tomorrow. So many new horses in this race that weren't in the Derby and so many that were in the Derby are not in this one. So, the Derby winner (can't remember his name could steal this race, too) By the way, I do remember that his name has war in it. Is he related to the horse that we are talking about in here...War Admiral or is he a Man O War offspring? I think I will look up his pedigree.

The Derby Winner's name is War Emblem, Martex.

Today's sports pages in the Montgomery Advertiser had an article about War Emblem and trainer Bob Baffert. Evidently there is an annual Alibi Breakfast at Pimlico. The paper reported that at yesterday's breakfast, Baffert came equipped with 3 excuses to use if War Emblem gets beat in the Preakness. They didn't give the first two, but said Baffert saved the best for last: "I knew there was a reason we got him so cheap". (Prince Ahmed Salman bought War Emblem for $900,000). What a change from the days of Seabiscuit! Sue

BTW, Martex, what would be the usual going price for a 3 year old who would be eligible for the triple crown?

MARTEXA - I'm only on Chapter 14 also - taking the slow route because there is something interesting in each chapter.

So are you saying that once they are a stallion, they can no longer run as fast? That's obvious, I suppose, because they are so much heavier - they become a stallion about 3 years old? And then they are retired to be bred?

War Emblem is going to be racing then - I must watch it tomorrow - I'm getting interested!

Hi Sue!

Ella,

The BIG race is interesting but not the whole book or even the main focus of the book.

The Book, to my mind, is about the Horse and the Men around him. I enjoyed every word of the book. Each chapter was interesting, to me. Actually I was more thrilled when Seabiscuit won the Santa Anita.

I liked the big race but only because Seabiscuit won it so convincinly, Three lengths going away.

I am going to tune in to the Preakness tomorrow too.

I saw the Preakness when Cannaro II won it. He too was shooting for the triple crown. Can't Remember if he won it or not.

Ella, come up to Washington State, you will get used to rain in a while. We get around 130 or so inches per year.

Tiger Tom

The going price for a triple crown winner? I don't know but close to a million I would imagine. However, that is not what makes him eligible for the triple crown. I just never heard of too many that ran and won that were cheap horses.

No, Ella, I don't think it effects a horse's running ability to mature. Well, maybe age does if they get too old but they are usually finished before then. I just made that statement in regard to Seabiscuits being heavy. It sure didn't affect his running ability, I don't think.

So many racehorses today have very few races. You can see that when you hear of a horse getting injured before the derby or after the derby and can't finish the triple crown races. It is a big disppointment. There hasn't been a triple crown winner since Affirmed, I don't believe. Long time.

Sue...one of my reasons for not caring for B. Baffert much. He has an excuse for everything. Besides, I think he breaks too many horses down. He appears to me to run too many horses that might not be real sound. He is not the only trainer that does this, though. I think the viewing public has seen too many horses break down on the track when a race is being televised and that has hurt racing a lot. No one wants to see a horse get injured or a jockey, either. Tracks are not as safe today as the race track owners want to see fast times and new records set. It takes the toll in broken down horses. Another reason for me to get out of racing. I think of one word today when I think of racing....GREED. at the sacrifice of the animals. I liked it before pari mutuel came to Texas. It was more or less just for fun..kind of like one guy saying, "My horse can outrun your horse and the other guy saying, "Yeah! Well put up $500 and let's see". Not quite legal to bet but it was done. haha.

Ella...so many future stud horses have short career because if they break a leg and have to be put down, there goes millions of dollars in breeding fees.

Hi Tom and Martex - and Sue!

Just finished dinner - did you find what War Emblem's pedigree is, MARTEX?

Definitely I'm going to watch the Preakness tomorrow.

All good reasons, MARTEX, for the downfall of racing - there is a racing commissioner or a board or something - at least, there was in Seabiscuit's era. This chapter mentioned Herbert Bayard Swope as the racing commissioner and his name was so familiar to me that I had to look him up. He was journalist during WWII and I remembered his name all these years! Sometimes I surprise myself, love my mind when I get surprises like that!

So why desn't this Board or Commissioner, whatever, do something about the conditions you mentioned? Do the owners of the horses have too much power? I would agree, no one wants to watch horses or jockeys get injured because of greed. Too bad.

Oh, it's the legs of the horses, yes, I can see that - if the legs go then they have to shoot the horse? In this chapter Tom Smith was very worried about Seabiscuit's legs, but he had liniments and stuff that took care of the soreness.

And you say stallions race also. It doesn't affect the speed of the horse when they are 4 or 5-6 years old? Hmmmm

Tom - thanks for the invite to your state, but I think I'll take a raincheck - hahaha Have enough here to satisfy me! They are issuing frost warnings here - as if the rain wasn't enough!

I am still only on ch.13, so mightn't be taking part in the discussion for a day or two, but will try. Am so interested in your racing, in many ways it seems different to ours. I notice that in one part of ch. 13 it talks about Seabiscuit's first race on grass. What surface would he have raced on and do you still race on anything else but grass? We have always raced on grass here and most of the tracks except the very small rural ones, are looked after like golf greens and the gardens surrounding the tracks are magnificent.

Here a male horse is a colt until he reaches four years old and then he is considered to be a stallion, unless of course he is gelded. All male horses tend to be gelded if their breeding wont stand up for stud purposes or if they don't show exceptional promise on the track. Female horses are called fillies from the day they are born and are considered to be mares when they are four years old.

I suppose it is because we would have fewer horses racing than you would, we now only have a rare fatal track accident. Vet checks are very stringent - each horse is vet checked before every race, on every track. Although a lot of horses do break down, in my opinion, raced too often too young before their bones are mature enough.

Barbara

YOU RACE ON GRASS! EVEN I KNOW THAT IS VERY UNUSUAL - I DOUBT IF ANY OF OUR RACETRACKS ARE ON GRASS.

MARTEX, SUE AND OTHERS - HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A RACETRACK IN THE STATES THAT IS ON GRASS?

As I said at the very beginning of this discussion I know little about horses or races. We have two racetracks in my city - one is harness racing and the other is horse racing. I have only been to the harness races and just for fun. We have a lovely dining room there over the track and we would try to make enough money on betting the favorites to pay for our dinner. Have not done that though for years!

And your colts are not considered "adult" or stallions until they are 4 years old - same with mares.

MARTEX, SUE AND OTHERS - isn't that interesting?

I love this discussion - wait until I see our horse friend. Will have so much to tell him.

BARBARA - when is your racing season there?

The more I think about racing on grass, the more sense it makes. Horses and jockeys both would not be subject to injuries as much on grass, wonder why we don't?

Colts and fillies until 4 years old. My trainer says a horse is in his prime at 6. I race very few horses at 2. In fact, I can't remember more than one or two that started at 2.

We have turf races in the united states, too. In fact, most of the bigger tracks have both...a turf and a dirt track. The turf track is inside of the dirt track. All 3 tracks in Texas have both. I don't know a thing about racing in Australia but you say you don't have claiming races. How in the world can all your horses be stake horses? I think our system is better than as all horses are not created equal.

Ella, racing commissions in every state and a national one, too. However, most of them are horse people or lawyers or veterinarians. Anything is as honest as its people. Just like politics. Personally, I don't find too much honesty in either. That is my opinion only but I also can see where horse racing is going and the one word for it is GREED.

Why shouldn't a stud horse be able to run? Here in Texas I have seen two stallions that were being bred and were also racing. Very seldom do they do double duty but it is possible.

Ella, not always when a horse breaks its leg does it have to be shot. In fact, they are never shot. They are given an injection and humanely put to sleep. You do take everything literally, don't you? haha. Many a time they have surgery if there is an hope but some good horses in the past have had to be put down. I saw the great mares Ruffian and Go for Wand break legs while watching them race on television. No way will I ever get over it. Why I say that it is hard for people to see and ever enjoy horse racing again. I have been lucky. I have raced over 50 horses and none have broken down where they had to be destroyed or even didn't recover without surgery. They were no longer race horses, however. They went on to duty as polo horses or jumpers. I even have one that I sold to a man in Ca. that trains horses for western movies...you know the ones that fall down like they have been shot. So, I have a horse that is now a stunt horse or rather he was. He died of a virus.

Horses are vet checked before they race but that does not mean that sometimes they don't slip through the cracks. If you ever see a jockey that takes a horse out on the track only to decide not to ride the horse. He thinks the horse is sore and will not ride. You can't blame him. He could get killed if a horse goes down. Also, sometimes the track vet sees a horse whose gait is off and will scratch the horse.

I think that is enough. Way off the topic, anyway. We are suppose to be talking about Seabiscuit, are we not?

I just saw your message, Ella. There are just as many injuries on grass as there are on the dirt tracks. In fact, a dirt track may be a little softer for the jock if he falls off.

The only turf track I've seen is the one at Curraugh (sp?) in Ireland. There is a beautiful stud farm nearby with Japanese gardens that we visited, too.

Have any of you read the Dick Francis mysteries? He was a former steeplechase jockey (even I think Queen Elizabeth's personal jockey at one time). Many of his stories involve jockeys and problems with the stewards or people trying to cheat. The Jockey Club often hires former jockeys as investigators (in his stories). I really enjoy this light reading. Francis resides in Florida most of the year, but seems to know his horses and racing. Sue

I am trying to think of the name of that stud near the Curragh, the home of many famous racehorses, and there are a couple of memorials to a couple of them? I think it was in Kilcare. Can you remember? I will look it up. Our racetracks are similar to those in Ireland and England which are also turf tracks. Actually I think that is where the term "The Turf" came from. Our breeding and racing practices are also much the same.

ELLA: Sydney has four main racetracks and we race all the year round; races are held each Saturday and Wednesday, sometimes on a Sunday and on other special occasions, like Public Holidays. There is also a track on the outskirts of Sydney and quite a number throughout this state of New South Wales. There are eight races on a program and races are graded into Class A, Class B and then there are novice races for horses that have not won a race. Horses that can't make it on the city tracks are taken to the country tracks which might have a meet once a month. There is one main Harness Racing Track at Harold Park, but harness races are held on several other tracks which also double as showgrounds. Also every large rural city has a main race track and a harness track. I don't know so much about the other States.

MARTEX: Gosh, I don't know where to start. All races are stakes races, the Class A the stakes are pretty high as high as $1,000,000 for the Cups and the Derbys. We have a 2-yr-old race called the Golden Slipper (horses are almost 3 when it is run) and this carries a stake of $1,000,000 although it might have gone up in recent years. The lesser races probably carry $20,000, $30,000 for lst and some lesser amount for second and third. I will have a look to see what the current prize monies are.

We have regular trials that don't carry any money, but are good for a hit out before a horse runs in a race, or just to give a runner that little bit of extra condition. Horses that are continually beaten, just don't run, the entry fees and trainer's fees are too expensive. These horses are usually sold for jumpers and show hacks or if they are mares without much breeding or performance they go to show homes for breeding. My daughter and grandaughter buy race mares to breed to their coloured horses. I don't think there are any claiming races in Ireland or England either, but somebody might be able to answer this one.

I got so tied up in reading all the chapters up till Part 111 that I spent the whole of this cold, miserable grey day reading it.

Barbara

BARBARA! You're the leader of the pack! The rest of us are far behind you in reading the book, but save your thoughts as we go along.

YOU HAVE RACING ALL YEAR ROUND! Gosh, it's big in your country, but then maybe it is here, also - I wouldn't know. I must depend on MARTEX AND SUE and whoever else is here. There could very well be races down in the southern states that I don't know about.

The Preakness is runnning at 6:04 today in Ohio and I'm watching it for the first time ever! I wanted to go out to eat tonight, but may have to bring something in instead as my spouse is getting grumpy about the time.

I was attempting to bring some of the history of the Pimlico racetrack here, but I keep getting disconnected! Will try again!

THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE WITH MY IGNORANCE OF HORSES AND RACING - I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH!

HISTORY OF THE PREAKNESS

On a late summer evening in 1868, an agreement among sportsmen to stage a special race to commemorate a memorable occasion became the foundation for the middle jewel of racing's Triple Crown, the Preakness Stakes.

Governor Oden Bowie of Maryland, a horsemen and racing entrepreneur, was among the distinguished roster of guests at an elegant dinner party after the races at the Union Hall Hotel in Saratoga given by Milton H. Sanford, who had gained much of his wealth selling blankets during the Civil War. John Hunter of New York proposed that the feast be commemorated by a stake race to be run in the fall of 1870 for three-year old colts and fillies at two miles, to be known as the Dinner Party Stakes in honor of the evening. Bowie electrified the gathering by suggesting a purse of $15,000, a staggering sum in those days. Governor Bowie requested that the Dinner Party Stakes be run in Maryland, and pledged to build a new racetrack to host it.

Hence, the idea for Pimlico Race Course was born, and in the fall of 1870, the inaugural Dinner Party Stakes was run on Pimlico's opening. Won by Sanford's Preakness, one of only two male entrants in the seven horse field, the massive bay colt was a first time starter. His jockey, Billy Hayward, followed a unique tradition of the day after the race: a wire was stretched across the track from the judges' stand with a small silk bag filled with gold pieces. When the race was over, the winning jockey untied the string holding the bag and claimed the money. It is believed this custom brought about the modern day "wire" at the finish line, and the designation of "purse" money. Bowie's Dinner Party Stakes would later be run at Pimlico as the Dixie Handicap (now known as the "Dixie"), and hold the honor of being the 8th oldest stakes race in America.

Two years before the Kentucky Derby would appear, Pimlico was busy introducing its new stakes race for three-year olds, the Preakness, during its first-ever spring race meet in 1873. Governor Bowie had named the mile and one-half race in honor of Dinner Party Stakes - winner, Preakness. The scene was set for the first Preakness Stakes on Tuesday, May 27, a warm and muggy spring day at Pimlico. The crowd, well aware of Bowie's accomplishments in putting Baltimore on the national Thoroughbred map, swelled to 12,000. The violet-painted stands and the Victorian Clubhouse, which survived until a fire destroyed it in 1966, were decorated with the Maryland Jockey Club blue and white pennants. Entertainment was provided by Itzel's Fifth Regiment Band, which played operatic airs from Martha and Il Trovatore, and popular tunes of the day. The first Preakness drew seven starters, but it was John Chamberlain's three-year old, Survivor, who galloped home easily by ten lengths to a purse of $2,050 to this day, the largest Preakness margin of victory.

The new Preakness, off to a great start, prospered for the next 17 years. The early Preakness Stakes attracted quality horses and good crowds; however, in 1889, due to changes in the racing industry, the Preakness and Pimlico galloped to a halt. In 1890, the Preakness was run at Morris Park in New York. The Maryland Jockey Club continued to be involved in racing by presenting some steeplechasing and even trotting races at Pimlico, but the Preakness did not return home to Pimlico until 1909. During this interval, the Preakness was run for 15 years at the Gravesend track in Brooklyn, New York. These 15 so-called "lost" Preaknesses were officially enrolled in the race history of the classic in 1948; the 1890 Preakness was added in the 1960's.

Several traditions enjoyed today are attributed to the spontaneity of the 1909 Preakness renewal. For example, the musical rendering of "Maryland My Maryland" began when a bugler, moved by the spirit of the day, began playing Maryland's historic state song. The rest of the band, inspired by the music, joined in and the crowd reacted enthusiastically. In addition, Preakness 1909 also inaugurated the concept of the "painting of the colors" atop the weather vane, to honor the winning horse. From that day in 1909, the Preakness has run without a break each year at Pimlico, steadily growing in popularity and purse value. It was once said that having the Preakness in Baltimore is like being able to schedule the World Series or Super Bowl every year.

The Preakness Stakes has remained throughout history a true test of a horse's ability and class, a race where remarkable horses meet one another other in a great classic. The phrase "Triple Crown" was not coined until the 1930's, but it is this race on the third Saturday in May where the best of the Derby horses gather to see if there will be that window of opportunity for a Triple Crown prospect. Much goes on during this colorful time at Pimlico, but it has always been the horse that draws the fans. As poet Ogden Nash wrote: "The Derby is a race of aristocratic sleekness, for horses of birth to prove their worth to run in the Preakness."

War Emblem just won the Preakness... Now on to the Belmont for the Triple Crown...

Wasn't that a good race, Pat. War Emblem is really nice to watch but I got very excited when the 2nd placer trier for 1st. He is a local horse(Maryland) Magic Weisner. I wonder where his name came from. It is unusual! Onto the Belmont!

Loved the bit about the Preakness. Like you I am learning so much. My racing days are long since over, but I still take a keen interest, especially in the horses rather than the racing. A good story like Seabiscuit still stirs the emotions though.

War Emblem looks as though he is going to win the Triple Crown. Another great horse. I have tried to trace his pedigree to see if he goes back to Man o'War, but can't find it. Does anyone know?

Now you come to mention it, we do have a lot of racing right around the country. Probably the most in Sydney which is quite a big city, 5,000,000 at last count, I think. But don't quote me. hahahaha

I loved the bit in ch.3 which told of the bordello becoming first a shool, I think, and then a church. What next I wonder?

Barbara

Did any of you who watched the Preakness happen to see the bit about the carry weight? Every horse in the race had to carry 126 lbs. They lifted up a round pad that had additional weight to add to the jockey to make 126 lbs. That's a far cry from the days of Seabiscuit when he was required to carry more weight than his opponents.

I thought the race was exciting, but I had a really emotional moment just prior to the race. The Midshipmen's Choir from the Naval Academy sang "Oh Maryland, My Maryland". They sang beautifully and were incredibly handsome in their dress whites. It reminded me of years ago when my Bob looked so gorgeous in that uniform. BTW, that's the one he didn't like to wear. The high collar and stiff starched pants and blouse (jacket) were not comfortable.

I thought about the Middies and wondered how many were graduating this year and if they would be going to flight school or right out to active duty fighting terrorism. I think about all our service personnel now. The families of those serving in Afghanistan and other hot spots have to really hang on to their faith and think positive. Worrying doesn't change the situation. Sue

There is an interesting article about War Emblem here.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=21101&subsec=2

His sire is Son of Our Emblem out os Sweet Lady, (Lord at War mare).

He was just sold April 11 after winning at Chicago's Sportsman Park..
and was shipped to Churchill Downs to a new trainer and owner.

I believe that Tom's horse, Magic Wiesner (?) would have won with another 20 yds. He was coming fast.

War Emblem looked very strong. He might be a candidate for the triple crown but it is the hardest leg of the 3 races. It is the fartherest distance.

Did any of you see how the turf course is inside the dirt track? I thought they had some pretty good shots of it.

War Emblem is out of Our Emblem, a son of Mr. Prospector. One of the greatest sires of all times. Mr. Prospector and Northern Dancer, in my opinion are the top sires of all times.

All,

For a one dollar investment the owner of Magic Wiesner sure got her money's worth. Did you see what that Horse Paid to place and show? Wish I had gone to the local track where I could have bet on the Race. I would have put a few dollars down across the board on MW. It would have paid for dinner at least if not for the trip up to the track. SIGH.

On to Belmont.

Tiger Tom

IT WAS VERY EXCITING FOR ME! Because of you and this book!

And we may have a Triple Crown Winner and there hasn't been one since 1978! Wow! And, if I read that article right (THANKS, PAT!) he was bought for $20,000 by Springer et al, and sold for $900,000! Amazing!

We all wish we had a little money on the right horse today, TIGER TOM! Wouldn't we all celebrate!

Did you think the "prince" seemed a bit uneasy? I don't know.

And everyone all dressed up! I had to smile when the reporters were talking to the trainers, because Tom Smith:

"From the day of his arrival in New York, Smith was Smith, the New York press corps couldn't get a grunt out of him. Tom Smith, wrote one reporter, says almost nothing constantly."

Hahaha That is funny!

later, eg

All the horses carry the same weight when the race is not a handicap. This must be so in the Preakness. I have sent a couple of photographs of the Irish National Stud to Pat Scott, asking her to post them for me. Thought they might bring back some good memories for you. Certainly did for me.

On the back page of our main newspaper on Saturday, there is a great photograph of War Emblem being sponged down before the race. The caption also reads "Perfect Drift, which ran third behind War Emblem in the Kentucky Derby and is trained by Australian Murray Johnson.........will run in the Belmont Stakes on August 3",(my birthday). I'll have to have a bet on that one.

All,

Ella, is having problems with her Computer. She is going to take it in on Monday for some more Memory. Until then, I will be temporary sole leader.

Tiger Tom

All,

Guess Ella has Chapters 13-19 scheduled for this week.

I will have to break out the book and re-read those chapters.

Anyone want to start off the discussions on them?

Tiger Tom

I am still at chapter 15 and reading the book for the first time. I just can't stay with it. I can't believe the "bad luck" that Seabiscuit and Red are having. I just finished reading about Red getting hurt and his leg is in such bad shape.

I like Tom Smith a great deal. His compassion for his horses and his lack of bragging and keeping his mouth shut really impress me. He is so like my trainer/partner that it amazes me. Maybe because they come from the same era or rather my trainer's uncle was a trainer than and my trainer lived and learned from him. I like trainers like that, not the braggart types like Bob Baffert and D. Wayne Lukas. Any of the trainers could be as successful with the right wealthy owner and the big expensive horse. Baffert should not be getting the training credit for War Emblem right now. It should be the trainer that had him before. It takes a good 90 days to get a horse in shape and Baffert only had him for 20 days or so before the Derby. However, all the newscasters were praising Baffert and not the other trainer (sorry...don't remembert his name and that is a shame.)

I can see where Red Pollard wasn't thinking of the consequences when he got on the young, green horse for a friend. If a jockey was to think about what could happen, I don't think they could get on a horse. Some of them are very superstitious...a good example: Last time my Stinger ran, the jockey didn't like the way he was saddled. They had to resaddle him two more times before he was satisfied. The valet and the trainer surely know how to saddle, but the jockey had the last word. Which is the way it should be...he is the one in danger.

Today, I don't think a trainer would have as much trouble getting a horse scratched from a race because he was injured. However, the race was very important and I can understand the track not wanting him to be scratched. Today, the horse and trainer probably would be banned from racing there again.

I think by the time I am finished with this book, I will love Seabiscuit so much. He has such determination that there is no way you can not love him. However, Laura Hillenbrand talks all the time about him yawning. I don't think I have ever seen a horse yawn. I wonder how they do that? Also, I am not too sure that I believe that he lies down and sleeps on his long train trips. A horse generally doesn't lie down for over l/2 hour at a time.

Just for you, Ella

What was it you were telling me to do about my computer? 'Cause you didn't ever have any problems? See, you should have stayed silent about mine! I am a sorcerer, didn't you know? I couldn't help but laugh at Tom's message about you! Sorry! Tee hee!

Martex,

How could one help not loving Seabiscuit after reading the Book. Hillenbrand did a wonderful job of bringing this whole story to life.

The Bull ring we used to have in Seattle was a little shy on enforcing regulations. I once saw a horse with its leg in a bucket of Ice. Owner was going to run it come what may and the trainer was going along with it.

Smith was admirable wasn't he. Don't seem to make that type much any more.

I believe that all of the Men in this story were outstanding for one reason or another. I doubt if a movie could be written and believed as the real life story of Seabiscuit and the people associated with the Horse.

Tiger Tom

Hi Everyone, And thank you for the welcome. I really love this book since I love animals and Seabiscuit is incredible I think.I love his passion(I just learned to play tennis 10 years ago and I'm hobbling on the courts once a week since I just can't put that racquet down)I think the author of this book is very clever in the way she portrays both the human characters and of course the horses. I really wanted Seabiscuit to win that challenge with Man of War(I almost wrote War Cloud) but I cried to myself for him when he lost.I thought the author put it so well when she said animals can have broken hearts and I know my little parakeet was distraught when his female companion had to be put to sleep.Pollard is something else again isn't he?

But this is a new world. More emphasis on money. The word is GREED and it has been since the 80's more and more.

Horses often have their legs iced or even go to the paddock with cold water bandages on. But it does not necessarily mean they have a bad injury or else they wouldn't pass the vet check. They are like any other athlete..prone to aches and pains and they are not allowed any pain meds so they are numbed by the cold. Much like a human athelete. Really no harm in that. Any creature with muscles and tendons are prone to aches and pains. I have had two horses that were iced down ibefore a race due to normal aches and pains, but no sign in an xray of a chip or crack.

Now if you are talking about novacaine in the lower legs or something horrible...that is illegal. I hate to think the worse, but I am sure that some still do this.

Did you hear that about War Emblem having a chip in the ankle and possibly one in the knee. Now...tthat is what I call greed running him like that. He will be finished when the Belmont is over. They are using him up. They could have done surgery on the chips and he could go on to a long career, but he would have missed the triple crown. *Said with some sarcasm* The Prince has more money than he knows what to do with (He could start by making it better for some of his countrymen) but he is sacrificing the horse.

Martex,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I know very little about Horse Racing or what goes on back in the Paddock area.

I have been to the track a few times but just to watch the people more than the Races. My brother is the one who is the bettor in the family. I sometimes go out with him and watch him and his friends and listen to the way that they talk about an upcoming race. They will bad mouth just about every Horse in it especailly one and then just before the race goes off will run to the windows and plunk down money on the Horse they were bad mouthing. They talk like real insiders but will ask one another if they had a winner in the last race and usually no one has.

In holland the track there ran both flat and Harness racing. The two would be ran one flat and one Harness and so on. Used one track. Probably one of the most crooked tracks around: I watched one harness race where the favorite broke three (3) times and still won the race. The drivers had to almost stand up in their sulky to get their horses to slow down enough so that the favorite could be stopped and then got back into his gait and back into the race. Had some damned long races too. Two miles was nothing.

Tiger Tom

More delightful photos from Barbara Sherman.

Very nice photos, Barbara. Most unusual, but beautiful, stables. Look more like a house. I like it.

Does Ireland/UK have a triple crown race, too? Or was Sun Chariot (?) the winner of the triple crown race in USA? I never heard of him before. My one stud horse spend 5 years in England. He sold as a yearling for $260,000 back in 1987. He never made that kind of money, however. He was purchased by Shadwell Farms and shipped to England.

Barbara: That's it! That's the stud farm we visited. It was so beautifully laid out. The horses in the boxes were gorgeous and the Japanese Gardens were unbelievable beautiful. That day was a real high point among many in our visit to Ireland. Thanks to you and Pat for posting the pictures. Sue

Barbara, I really enjoyed your pictures. Thanks for having Patz put them up for all to see.

Yes, Martex, it is all about greed now! It just doesn't matter what happens to the horse, run him anyway! It does disgust everyone. The money makes it such an "elite" sport. Wasn't that way when Seabiscuit ran. The whole country was interested in what he was doing even when they didn't particularly follow racing otherwise. Sort of like the people who followed Joe Louis's career in boxing.

All,

Ella will be back next Monday if all goes well. She is waiting for a new "Tower" not just an upgrade of memory.

So, I will be filling in until then. I had thought that she would be back today. I guess we are on Chapters 13-19. I believe the big Race between Sebiscuit and War Admiral is in this section.

I know that I was waiting for the Race in the book and I jumped ahead a few chapters to read about it. In the book it seemed to come alive before my eyes. I think that Hillenbrand Did wonderfully leading up to the big race.

Tiger Tom

I was at Holllywood Park when Seabiscuit won one of his big races! Just a little girl, (my Mom was really into TB racing that summer). My Mother became acquainted with the Howard's, owners of Seabiscuit, but I didn't realize history was in the making.

This book recovered fond memories for me of a smallish horse with a ratty tail!

When you read how many setbacks Seabiscuit had in his career, you realise what a really great horse he was to have achieved what he did.

Also what a complex character Pollard was. On one hand he was an intellectual with his love of the classics, on othe other he chose a profession where at one time he was little more than a rouseabout and he marries a girl who came from a wealthy and high achieving family. In riding that difficult youngster for his friend, his loyalty overcame what would have been an expected precaution not to take risks before the big race he was preparing for. He really had his share of bad luck. Especially when you take into account his great love for the horse and his loyalty to Smith and the Howards. Does anyone else think that he was a person of contradictions? What does everyone else think about him?

SUE: I thought you might like those photographs - I had some good memories when I found them again. Can you remember whether the museum was through that archway or whether it was at the end of the stable buildings.

MARTEX: I don't think that England has a Triple Crown any more, but will look in some of my horse books.

Barbara

Lokline,

A BIG welcome to our discussion.

Hope you can share some other things with us.

Tiger Tom

Barbara,

Amazing how this story, real, reads like a Novel with the up and downs. The Characters in it.

Who do you thing should play the principals in this epic when the Movie is made?

Yes, Pollard was quite a person. I would have loved to have known him. For that matter, I would have loved to have known all of them. Don't made that type of people anymore, pity.

Tiger Tom

Barbara: I remember visiting the museum, but I can't picture in my mind just where it was. That was a very special day for us--I wonder if other American tourists visit there much. On the day we were there, there were only a few other visitors--and they seemed to be Irish or British. However, we were there in early May before tourist season was in full swing. Sue

I was on a tour when I was in Ireland, 1945 or 1944, and most of the people on that tour were either American or Canadian, I think there was one couple from Hong Kong and I was the only Australian and I don't remember anyone from England. It was towards the end of the summer break and there were lots and lots of people wherever we went. Did you go to Blarney?

MARTEX: I must have been having a senior's day when I talked about the Triple Crown in England - my mind must have been full of Seabiscuit or maybe War Emblem. I don't think there has ever been a Triple Crown there. We now have one in Victoria for 3-year-olds. But I don't know anything about it.

TOM: Gosh, I don't know who would be the best persons to play those characters, I would have to give that some thought. Do you know who played in the Shirley Temple film?

Barbara

Barbara S

Other than shirley Temple, no. As I understand it the film is better forgoteen it was that bad.

Don't know: Years ago I could see Spenser Tracy playing Smith but don't know of any actor today who would have the ability. Howard? Perhaps Paul Newman if he was a bit younger. Don't know of any actor in Hollywood who could play Pollard. Who do you nominate?

Ella will be disappointed in us if we don't get cracking and discuss chapters 13 - 19.

It seemed as if everything was against the Race between Seabiscuit and War Admiral. Never hard of such a series of mishaps. Still, the race came off. What do you all think of it and Hillenbrands depiction of it?

Comments more than welcome.

Tiger Tom

How about Michael J. Fox for Pollard? He's small enough and although he was primarily a comedic actor, I think he has been suffering enough with his Parkinson's to understand Pollard's problems. He was a native of Canada, too. (Or do I have Pollard's birth place wrong? I'll have to check back). Of course he wouldn't take the role now, but I think he could do it.

Barbara: We didn't go to Blarney and kiss the stone. We thought we were already too full of Blarney! We tried to stay off the beaten path, rented a small car for the very tiny backroads and roamed at will. Sue

lokline Where are you? More of your rememberance please. How did you like the book? I really enjoyed it and thought it was well done.

Ginger

SpringCreekFarm

Yes, Michael J. Fox is from Burnaby, British Columbia and Pollard is from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

What a wonderful experience to have been so close to Seabiscuit and his connections, even though you were only a little girl. It seems to me in those days that there were only a few outstanding horses, that they stuck in our memories. Nowadays it seems that great horses come and go so quickly, that you lose track of them.

I was totally enthralled with the match race between War Admiral and Seabiscuit and I thought Hillenbrand stretched every detail of the race so that the reader felt that they were there watching it.

Barbara

Had dinner with Ella and husband, Dick last evening. She is patiently waiting for her new computer which should be here by next week. Hoping for high speed with it!!

Did I put up the column by Grantland Rice here too soon. Guess that I did, since, in the discussion, we aren't up to the actual race yet. I jumped the gun or gate! Sorry about that.

Yes, the book reads like a fictional account and that is what makes it fly. This author has been ill for 5 yrs or more and has never even been into a book store to see her book displays or that the book is number one on the best seller list. She has done a remarkable job with this story and keeps me interested the in the outcome of participant's lives.

Hi Everyone, I finished the book and what a lovely end I thought.I hope that oak tree is still standing. You know I was talking to a friend and trying to remember that picture with I think Robert Redford-all I could come up with was Whispering Horses-and I just realized-Tom Smith-The Horse Whisperer.I guess he had to end up the way he did. Thank you for getting me to read this book-I enjoyed every minute of it. Happy Memorial Day All.

Please don't give the ending away. I haven't gotten past chapter 15 yet. Just too busy and too tired when I do have a chance to read. Parts of the book I have enjoyed but I must be more of a critic than the rest of you. I just can't get that interested. For years I lived without television, so I know the inside of a library well; but for some reason I have a hard time believing this is #1 on the best seller list.

Martex,

It may be that your experience makes you a tougher judge of the book than the rest of us.

Still, I hope that you find some things in it that you like and maybe learn from.

Tiger tom

Tudy,

Perhaps Robert Redford could play Smith in the New Movie about Seabisucit that will or is being made.

Glad you liked the book.

Tiger Tom

I am a little bit confused. You say that we are not up to the race yet, which I think takes place in ch.13, or are we talking about another race? According to the heading, we should now be on to ch. 20 (today here). Can you please clarify this. I am now behind for a number of reasons so am only up to ch.14.

Tell Ella that we miss her.

MARTEX: I found a few parts of the book a bit tedious, but overall, I felt it was quite a wonderful example of good journalism, research, with a dollop of emotion and fiction. I am also surprised that it is the top of the best seller list, but I wonder if this is partlly because with all the talk of terrorism and Sept. 11, people want a story of this sort to escape for a while.

TOM: How about Robert Redford for Howard? Or Mel Gibson.

It is a miserable, cold, bleak, rainy day here today - one week off winter, so I am going to catch up on my reading.

Barbara

Barbara,

Redford Tom Smith and Gibson for Howard.

I am sure that Gibson could play howard easily and Redford Smith.

I wonder who Hollywood will come with for all Four: Howard, Smith, Pollard, and Woof.

I guess there will be a little slippage in Ella's schedule. I know that we are to finish the book next week. I think that we can start on Monday if no one minds. Ella may be back by then and I think that she wants to be the one who ends this disucssion.

Tiger Tom

What has happened to our discussion?

I'm here

But I don't know what happened. I think a lot of us were trying to decide who best would play the lead characters in the movie.

I would have thought Mickey Rooney for a jockey once upon a time.

A question I have, if anyone would enlighten me please, is "What is meant by Pari-Mutuel"?

Barbara,

discussion is still going on. Ella is down for the count because her Computer Pooped out. She should be back, we thought on Monday, but she is waiting on delivery of a new tower and it is coming either by Mail or UPS I don't know which. If by mail the earliest she could get it would be tuesday.

We are just finishing chapeters 13 - 19. Would welcome your comments on these chapters.

I am temporary DL until Ella returns.

I guess we will start discussion of the final Chapters on Monday.

Tiger Tom

Prancer,

Pari-mutual is the betting systems used at U.S. tracks. It is an electronic system that at the start of a race, before the Horses are actually off an running from the starting gate, Has the odds set by the track handicappers on the Board. As bets are made on different Horses the odds change, right up until the race is actually started. What odds that are on the board when the race starts is the odds that are paid on the winning. placing and showing Horses.

You will see many "Rail Birds," guys who spend most of their time at the track and are supposedly knowledgeable about racing and the Horses, wait until the last minute to place their wagers because they think they will get more favorable odds that way.

Tiger Tom

I am still here and enjoying all that is posted.

The chapters being talked about kept me interested in finding out just when and where if ever Seabiscuit and War Admirial might run so I just could not put the book down. Just one thing after another.

I just love horses and had one. The Author knew how to keep me and evenidently all in supence for it to be a best seller.

Ella, We all miss you so hope all goes well.

Barabra, I have no idea what happened to the rest of our group,As you can see I stay in the background and enjoy just listening. You are a great ascet to this discussion. Thanks as I have enjoyed all of your post. Tom You have kept the ball rolling well.

A Friend of Animals especialy Horses, Ginger

May 25th and were are off and Running soon as we continue to read Seabiscuit.

What do you say about these final chapters and the book in general?

For me it was exciting and your incite in your post made it so much better.

Where are you My friends?

Alie, Alie, in free as you are safe so it is time to come in home free as Seabiscut did. Smile.

Ginger

Tiger Tom

Thank you for the explanation about how the betting works. I think I'd hang around a "Rail Bird".

I don't have any experience with betting, although my Uncle used to take me to the Harness Races in Charlottetown, P.E.I. and also to races here in Ontario at Woodbine. That, of course, was against my Aunt's dire warnings that "he would make a Heathen out of me". HaHa. I can do THAT myself.

I love the book - second time through and finding it not only a great story, but a wonderful learning experience.

Thanks everyone else for sharing all the postings.

Barbara, I put this site up: Grantland Rice's Poem

earlier here and Ella mentioned that I had jumped the gun about the race. So, here it is again, just in case anyone wants to read it.

Although the book was not a great book, I found it a fun read and also a distraction from the seriousness of our world condition at this time. And, I wanted and needed that.

Ginger, its good to speak with you again and to find that you have always been lurking here. I,too, am a horse fan and lover. Spent a few years following around a daughter and her horse at jumping meets, etc. Also, just learned how to ride at that time although I had always wanted to do so.

All,

The BIG race is over and all that is left is the Santa Anita Handicap and the finish of the book.

For me, the race between Seabiscuit and War Admiral was the true finish of the book. Had it stopped there I would have been more than satisfied.

However, I am glad that Hillenbrand did continue to record the Santa Anita and the End of the story for all of the Men and the Horse.

Was the end a Hollywood type of "riding in to the Sunset" ending. Could I have wanted to outcome for Pollard, Smith and Woof to have been better? Yes, but that is not life is it.

I have to accept what happened and be glad that the Men and Horse lived those days. It must have been quite a "Ride" for all of them.

Tiger Tom

Thank you for the explanation of pari-mutuel. I was wondering. It sounds something like our TAB which has a betting shop in even the smallest suburb.(I think we must be a nation of gamblers.) On the course we also have the TAB or it used to be called the TOTE. I guess you also have bookmakers with their stands on the course who 'lay the field', then you can get better odds if you wait, but you can also get caught because someone can lay a big bet and the price for your horse, plummets. I notice that the odds for Seabiscuit in the match race were 2-1 (1 dollar on to win two), while for War Admiral 1-4 (4 dollars on to win one), or something like that.

ANN: I read the Grantland Rice poem with tears in my eyes (I couldn't get the audio, but I loved the words - they had their own music. Thank you for pointing us in this direction.

GINGER: I am so glad that you have come back. I always enjoy your posts.

I have now finished the book, but I did post my comment on the match race further back. I had the same reaction to Hillenbrand's description as I had to the Grantland Rice's poem. When you live with horses you gain a deep understanding of their different personalities and I think Hillenbrand had, or developed, this understanding.

Barbara

Barbara

Just had to comment about your reaction to horses. My daughter trained her horse from the getgo, didn't even have to use reins or a lead when working with her in the paddock or out in the field. When she sold her, many years later, to a sweet young boy who was just starting to show, it broke her heart. On returning to the stable, years later, she went to her old friend's stall and that mare stood in front of my daughter and it looked like she cried. Tears ran down the horse's face! I threw myself across a bed and bawled when my daughter told me this.

Ann,

Many of us attribute feelings in animals that others do not:

I know that animals have a sense of Humor, can feel sorrow. Show loyalty of long duration.

So why not a Horse showing emotion when reunited with an old friend.

I have a friend who says that an animal cannot know any of those things. But if he admits to them he believes it diminshes himself as a human. He believe humans stand far above animals and that animals are hidden from Gods sight.

I know that I have seen all of the above mentioned emotions in animals.

Tiger Tom

Barbara, we do not have the TOTE on the track like you do and also in Ireland and England. The only betting that is permitted is at the pari-mutual windows. Of course there are side bets among the spectators but these are not official. At least no track I've been to in American (I admit, not many) has had book makers located around the track or in the stands. Sue

Good grief, Tiger Tom, do you mean that your friend really believes that admitting to animals having feelings will diminish him. I am amazed! I think that he is in the minority here. We have been reading animals minds and they ours for over a millenium. Who's right there with you when you feel sad with his/her head in your lap and rolling those great big eyes at you? Who is sitting on your chest, purring, when you are down? Who's wagging his/her tail when you come in the door and jumping for joy at the same time? 'Tain't my husband, let me tell you!!

First, thanks for all the friendly replies to my post of my memories of seeing this great horse race. At the time, I was too young to realize what this horse meant to Americans, stuck in the midst of the "Great Depression"! He was better than any movie star, because he was the underdog!

I was impressed with the description of the jockeys' athletic ability and stamina. Can you imagine climbing on top of a 1500-lb. beast, teetering on two little bands of steel, just after you have been purging yourself?

If any of you ever come to California, please go to Santa Anita Race Track to see the bronze statue of Seabiscuit there. It will make you weep!

I can say that the last 5 chapters were truly great. I was rooting for Seabiscuit just like I was standing at the rail. I didn't find the big race to be the one with War Admiral. I really thought it was the Santa Anita Handicap when he came back to win it after he was supposedly never going to be able to run again. He showed how much he loved the racing game. Also, Pollard was amazing to be able to ride with his leg the way it was. They were a perfect match. They both admired the other.

I was surprised to read about Woolf's early death due to diabetes on the racetrack. I was glad to read that Tom Smith went on to be a successful trainer for another owner (Mrs. Dupont?). I would have liked to have known what happened to Marcela. Such true love between Red and Agnes. For her to die just two weeks after he was gone, made me think there was no way they could be separated. She went through much heartache being married to him but loved him without complaint.

Seabiscuit died young. He used his heart up it would seem. He reached down deep each time to win. He was happy in retirement which pleased me. Many horses do not do well away from the racetrack. They are creatures of habit and habits are hard to change.

I even felt sorry for War Admiral. He was a horse anyone would be proud to have. He also was a "fighter" but Seabiscuit was just a little bit better as a fighter. Also, his jockey may not have been on the same par with Woolf.

My favorite line of the whole book was, "Horses, mister, can have crushed hearts, just like humans." This was George Woolf talking about War Admiral's defeat by Seabiscuit. George Woolf was a "humane" human. He showed compassion for War Admiral.

I really wish I could go to Santa Anita, Lokline, to see the statue of Seabiscuit. I am so glad that it is there to honor him.

Martex

You have expressed so well everything I would have said about the book and characters. I will read it a third time and maybe more, as I loved it.

I hope I can go sometime and see the statue of Seabiscuit. Kind of a distant dream, but who knows. Some dreams come true.

All,

Ann sent word, via e-mail that Ella won't be back for another week.

so, do we finish this discussion or do we wait for Ella to come back?

Tiger Tom

Martex,

Very Good summation. you said everything that I believe the rest of us were thinking but could not put it down in words as well as you have.

Tiger Tom

I also Loved the book, The people in it and reading All your posts. Thank you so much.

Ginger

HELLO EVERYONE AND, OH, I'M SO SORRY!

How very irksome (a mild word!) for your computer to freeze up and cause interminable problems right in the middle of a good - a wonderful discussion - with such great people! I won't go into all my frustrations but suffice to say that I have a new modem and in the middle of that great decision my ISP decided to merge with another and no one can email me until next week when I get a disc with all new stuff!

Did the telphone and the printing press advance this rapidly? It is difficult to believe that a 5-year computer is out of date already? How long will a new one last - 2 years? This rapid technology is expensive!

But you have all had a great time of finishing SEABISCUIT and I've caught up with all your posts - and I MISSED IT! But before we end it all let's just take today to add any further comments.

I did want to post something about the author and her disease - she says "For fifteen years, I have had very little contact with the world. The illness has left me very few avenues for achievement, or for connecting with people."

As she stated - "Writing is my salvation" - and what a wonderful job she did with this book! Don't you agree?

I believe Howard, Smith and Pollard would all applaud her efforts! I do! And for the movie I nominate Gene Hackman for Howard, Matt Damon for Pollard (they can make him small and thin, the movies can do anything) and right now I can't think of anyone for Smith, but I will, I will.

I'm just reading a marvelous book, one I believe Barbara recommended, and which I got at my Library titled STRENGTH TO STRENGTH by Sara Henderson, who married an ex-fighter pilot of WWII in 1960 and after going broke they moved to the outback or Northern Australia into a tin shed (with 2 young children!) and you will love the book, you will laugh hysterically, you will admire their courage (no neighbor within a hundred miles, no running water, no electricity) and you will cry at times.

Would all of you like to discuss it? We've formed a friendship here that I would love to continue on into another book? Look at the PROPOSED DISCUSSION (scroll down the page) of RAISING THE HUNLEY - another great adventure. Post a message there if it appeals! I've read it and it's wonderful.

AND SHALL WE STICK AROUND UNTIL THE BELMONT RACE THIS SATURDAY TO SEE IF WE HAVE A TRIPLE CROWN WINNER?

I'll be watching! So happy to be back with all of you!

ELLA!!!!

I had been told that you would be down and out for another week.!!

So glad that you are back. I am not sure if we have finished the book or not. Haven't had much commentary on the Santa Anita Race and events leading up to it.

Anyway, if you have read what was posted while you were gone you will know where we are and where you can pick up and continue on.

Tiger Tom

Ella called this morning and with a little help from her husband, she was able to get back online after all. So, she is with us. Yaaaay!!

I believe the Belmont is on June 8th, isn't it? Anyone?

Oh, you haven't discussed the hundred-grander yet? After the bitterness and the arguments between all three members of our team, (chapter 22) Seabiscuit brought them all together by running the "second-fastest ten furlongs ever run in American racing history?"

It was a race that undoubtedly saw the largest attendance ever on the track and the whole world was listening on their radios! What a finish for Seabiscuit and Pollard, Smith, Howard!

But then it was over - all things end and it was sad, wasn't it?

Do you think Seabiscuit would be as popular today? (One of the questions asked in the Readers' Guide in the back of the book) - If he could win the Triple Crown this year, of course, he would!

Would it bring back the excitement once felt for racing? It could, couldn't it?

All of you know so much more about this sport than I do, so tell us your feelings about it all.

Good to see you back, Ella!

Sorry you have missed so much. I have nothing to add. I said about all I can remember. hahah. I am starting the book about Secretariat now. I think, so far, it looks more interesting than Seabiscuit. However, now I am wondering which was the better horse. Sea biscuit or Secretariat?

WELCOME BACK. WELCOME BACK. YOU HAVE BEEN SORELY MISSED ALTHOUGH TOM HAS MADE A VALIANT EFFORT TO FILL IN FOR YOU, WHICH WE HAVE ALL APPRECIATED.

I don't have much to add to the excellent post by Martex about the final chapters of the book, except maybe to say that I admire and can fully appreciate the amount of research that Hillenbrand carried out for this book. She certainly cast her net far and wide. I suppose I was saddened when that wonderful team broke up and scattered. Red Pollard who had racing so much in his blood, carrying on even though his body was bent and broken, Smith, the consumate horseman achieving greater things with the cosmetics queen and Howard reliving his great days through his nuggety lilttle horse. I had some tears when Seabiscuit died and seeing a different side of Howard in his deep love for his friend, burying him in secret in contrast to his very public outpourings when Seabiscuit was racing. A sad ending to an exciting book, but ah, such is life. Somebody asked earlier whether that oak tree was still there. Does anyone know?

What is wrong with Laura Hillenbrand?

I have enjoyed this discussion so much and thank you, Ella, and Tom for keeping it going at a nice steady pace.

I imagine we have now finished and I will see you in From Strength to Strength if it takes off. It is certainly a very good tale of quite a remarkable woman.

Barbara

I forgot to say that the husband of Sara Henderson was an American adventurer and made quite a splash (pun intended) while he was in Australia. One of his adventurs was saling off with an all girl crew on a yacht,(probably not in the book) and I will leave it to your imaginations the stories that came out of that little episode. He always seemed to be in the news for some years.

How nice to hear from you all! I have the paperback edition of SEABISCUIT and in the back of it is an interview with the author, Laura Hillenbrand. Your copy does not have it?

She was in college when she became devastingly ill from all kinds of flu, infections, etc. and ended up at John Hopkins with a diagnosis of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, with extreme vertigo, and at times she is completely bedridden. In the 4 years it took to write this book, she did nothing else, had her research surrounding her desk and computer so she didn't have to walk far - it's an amazing interview and I wish all of you could have read it!

The Belmont Stakes are going to be running on June 8th - Ann was correct - and I'll be watching and thinking of all of you watching, too. Here is a clickable of interest.

Triple Crown News

BARBARA: You knew of Charles Henderson, the aviator and husband of Sara? Yes, it's in the book that he bought the sailboat and had an all-girl crew - he and Sara were living separate lives for many years as he was as spendthrift as he was dashing and charming! He ran their "station" into terrible debt, but what a remarkable woman Sara Henderson was - all of you would love the book! Incidentally, what is a "kindy?" (I would be at it again if we ever discuss this book - so many questions! I don't know these terms!)

MARTEX - do let us know about the Secretariat book - post it in the Library or the non-fiction general discussion and we will all be anxious to hear your opinion about it!

It was such a pleasure chatting with all of you and I hope we meet again in another book discussion on Seniornet soon!

We had two new people - NEW TO ME! - that I didn't get a chance to welcome properly and now I must say goodbye to

TUDY AND LOKLINE - JOIN US AGAIN PLEASE!

And..........

SUE
PRANCER
GINGER
ANN
<BARBARA

THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES!

A SPECIAL THANKS TO MY PARTNER, TOM!

Create a dream
and give it everything you have,
you could be surprised just how
much you are capable of achieving,
If you don't have a dream....
borrow one!
Any, which way.....
You must have a dream!

........................Sara Henderson