Searching for Hassan ~ Terence Ward ~ 6/03 ~ Religion-related Books
jane
April 30, 2003 - 07:18 am
Searching for Hassan
An American Family's Journey Home to Iran
By Terence Ward
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"Remember, if you open the eye of your heart, then you can see things that cannot be seen."(Hassan's words to Terry Ward).
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Author Terence Ward was born in Boulder, Colorado, and spent his childhood in Saudi Arabia and Iran. He speaks Arabic, Italian, Greek, Indonesian, and Farsi and has been a management consultant advising corporations and governments in the Islamic world. This is his first book.
"Whenever I am given a welcoming glass of tea, childhood images come rushing back to me of long, hot summer afternoons sitting with Hassan, listening to his stories under the shade of a plane tree. In my mind's eye I see our Persian garden and turquoise fountains under the snow-capped Elburz. I wander past honeycombed mosques and bazaar labyrinths. But my most powerful childhood memory is tarof—the cultivated, overwhelming hospitality of the Iranian people." the Author in Esquire
"Terence has our pulse. From the understanding of what it is like to live outside of Iran after the revolution and the torment and tribulation of the good life here, versus the yearning for home, to modern day Iranians in Iran and the daily grind of hopes raised and hopes dashed for a return to normalcy. And I'm not talking about politics, he actually knows the value of "Chaghaleh-Badoom", he has tasted "Gojeh-Sabz" and a good "Lavashak" does not go unnoticed. He has tasted the aroma of freshly baked "Sangak" and the intoxication of Kabab smoke in Darband." quoted from Bruce Bahmani on Iranian.com.
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Iranian Revolution Links
READING SCHEDULE
- June 9-14: Prologue thru Chapter 4
- June 15-20: Chapter 5 thru Chapter 7
- June 21-25: Chapter 8 thru Chapter 11
- June 26-30: Chapter 12 thru Epilogue
Discussion Leader ~ Ann Alden
Books main page | B&N Bookstore | Suggest a Book/Discussion
Ann Alden
April 30, 2003 - 12:59 pm
Hello everyone! Just wanted to check in here and promote this book. Its an easy but very well written book about Iran(Persia) during the '60's and 90's. I hated to finish it and wanted more to read about this Middle East country. The whole time that I was reading, I felt like I was in the Arabian Nights stories. Wonderful sites, food, music and people!
I hope to be able to discuss this in June or July. Come join us!
Ella Gibbons
May 1, 2003 - 11:23 am
I will, I will, Ann!
It sounds wonderful and it is, of course a true story? Obviously, the author lived in the finest section of the country, probably had servants - know he had a chef - does he mention the poverty there?
Iran is so much in the news, this will be a timely book to discuss.
Ann Alden
May 2, 2003 - 06:23 am
Here's is a little more about the book:
Here's a new non-fiction book titled, "Searching For Hassan" by Terrence Ward
and really enjoying the story of an American family who returns to Iran to search for
their old cook/general handy man and his family who took care of the family in the
60's-70's. In 1998, they find a somewhat safe way to return and end up taking a
personal tour of Iran on the way to the man's supposed hometown. The descriptive
writing is like reading something from Arabian Nights. The colors, the markets, the
market goods--fruits, vegetables, spices--- the sights and sounds are described so
well that you feel like you are right there. The comments on the history of Iran(Persia)
and its new republic government were new to me.
Hats
May 2, 2003 - 07:08 am
Hi Ann, I would like to read this book and learn more about Iran. It seems to be written in a very personal style.
Ann Alden
May 2, 2003 - 10:46 am
Yes, it is, Hats and so easy and pleasurable to read. I am, at this time hoping to discuss it in June. Hope you enjoy it and looking forward to seeing you here.
Persian
May 2, 2003 - 11:56 am
I'll certainly be happy to join this discussion as I know it will bring back good memories for me, too. Thanks, Ann, for introducing the book.
Harold Arnold
May 2, 2003 - 04:09 pm
Ann, thank you for proposing this book. I am ordering it and plan to participate. It looks like an interesting read!
Ann Alden
May 3, 2003 - 08:25 am
We have a quorum!! Yaaaaaaaaay! I know that you will all enjoy this book. Its a fun read!Is June okay for y'll? Maybe June 2? Please post here and let me know.
I believe that I have sent my new email address to everyone but if I missed you, just click on my name here and it will be displayed for you, should you need it.
Harold, I was able to get a new copy for around $9.00 by looking in at ABEbooks which is here on the net. My copy hasn't arrived yet and since I lost all of my folders yesterday, I can't even inquire about it. There must be a way.
Persian, just think what else you can tell us about Iran! That will make the discussion even more interesting! So glad you will join us.
Ann Alden
May 4, 2003 - 05:48 am
I was leaving a message on some of the sites where I thought there might be some readers for this book. It went like this:
Check into our new proposal,"Searching For Hassan" by Terrence Ward. This exciting book is
filled with great descriptions of historic sites, the sounds, smells, and tastes of Iran(Persia)
plus good explanations of the country's religious ties. One wonderful Irish-American family
searches for and finds an Iranian family, who were lost to them 30 yrs ago. The graciousness
and respect that these two families have for each other's culture is heartwarming. My
favorite quote is from Hassan to Terry Ward: "Remember, if you open the eye of your heart,
then you can see things that cannot be seen.
And, Persian was kind enough to explain the above quote. Thanks, Persian.
Persian - 11:51am May 2, 2003 PDT (#402 of 410)
Mahlia
"Remember, if you open the eye of your heart, then you can see things that cannot be seen."
Ann - in Persian culture this is the same as telling a beloved family member or friend that when
he/she/they travel, they are "in my eyes." Physically, one can only see so far, but when someone is in
your heart or you look at them "through the eyes of your heart" it makes all the difference in the
world. Whenever my husband or son travel (especially now, since both are in the Middle East), I
constantly assure them that they are "in my eyes." Ward's book should be very interesting!
Persian
May 10, 2003 - 12:00 pm
Here is a link to an article in today's Washington Post about Zoroastrians in the metropolitan Washington area. This article will complement the information in
Searching for Hassan on the ancient Persian monotheistic religion of Zoroastrianism (and its prophet Zarathustra) and dispell the confusion about it being a religion based on fire worship.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33351-2003May9.html
Ann Alden
May 12, 2003 - 02:24 am
Another quote from an exthusiastic reader:
Although I haven't quite completed the book yet, I'm of the opinion that it is every
bit as fine a work as When Religion Becomes Evil (which you already know I regard
very highly). The author of Searching for Hassan is extremely skillful in blending all
the aspects of the country, the people and his family's memories together. My sense
is that the introduction draws the reader in and then holds one's attention until either
sleep, a ringing telephone or some other distraction interrupts.
Whoa, this book is taking on a life of its own! Come join us!
Ella Gibbons
May 23, 2003 - 02:35 pm
All those that have an interest in the Middle East might also be interested in a book that we are proposing to read in August and I know Mahlia is aware of it as she presented it in the Community Center.
LEAP OF FAITH by Queen Noor of Jordan, No. #1 on the NYT bestseller list, very readable, fascinating. Click here for more information and please join in.
LEAP OF FAITH
Harold Arnold
May 25, 2003 - 08:24 am
I am having trouble getting the book. It was ordered from B & N through a local store. The order has shown as shipped now for sometime but has not arrived. They assure me it will arrive this coming week.
I seem to have trouble getting my orders from B &N irrespective of how they are place- by the internet the 1-800 telephone, or now through the store.
Hats
May 25, 2003 - 01:39 pm
Hi Ann,
I am glad you have chosen this book. I started it today. The words just suck you in and you feel as though you are there in Iran. This book seems to be about an amazing love. It is so amazing that this family would travel back to Iran, after so many years, to find their missing servant and family. I can not wait to see how it all turns out in the end.
I may lurk, but I am reading. Thanks for introducing me to another great book.
Persian
May 25, 2003 - 02:13 pm
HAROLD - I order my books through Amazon.com and they usually arrive within a week.
Diane Church
May 25, 2003 - 03:59 pm
I'm so pleased - after reading the glowing reviews about "Hassan", I checked with our library and they have a copy sitting on the shelf - now reserved for me! ALL the books discussed here sound wonderful and I'm really looking forward to this one.
Ella Gibbons
May 28, 2003 - 03:25 pm
I don't believe I will be giving anything away if I quote one fact from the early part of the book - which is delightful reading, by the way - and that is the fact that in the Gulf "women in purdah" (otherwise known as 'bimos' or black independent moving objects) - scurry through enclosed marbel shopping malls, etc.
Being under the impression that BMO's (black moving objects) was a bit of G.I. humor given to women during the Gulf War, it appears now that the expression is one used commonly by all people living there.
Have no idea what "purdah" is and must rely on Mahlia's knowledge.
One more thing - the quote on the back of the book by Joe Klein, in The New Yorker, seems ridiculous at this date, doesn't it, when all of us are reading on the front pages on our papers of multiple problems between the USA and Iran.
What a difference a year can make, as I note this book was just published in 2002.
Persian
May 28, 2003 - 04:22 pm
ELLA KHANOM - - The Great Wizard Google defines PURDAH in this manner: In India, the actual translation of the word purdah is screen or veil. Purdah is the practice that includes the seclusion of women from public observation by wearing concealing clothing from head to toe (like the burka of Afghanistan) and by the use of high walls, curtains, and screens (chattis) erected within the home, especially on balconies or flat rooftops, where women gather in the evenings or to view the street scenes without being seen themselves. Purdah is practiced by Muslims and Hindus, especially in India. The limits imposed by this practice vary according to different countries and class (caste) levels. Generally, those women in the upper and middle-class are more likely to practice all aspects of purdah because they can afford to not work outside the home. Rural, lower-class women working in the fields or with animals could not accomplish their daily work if they could not have a wider field of vision and were not free to move about in the fields or herd the animals. Traditional homes often have chattis (think venetian blinds which only open a slit, not all the way) in gardens so that women can enjoy the fresh air, but will not been seen by unrelated houseguests.
I live in the metropolitan Washington DC area, where we have several high end shopping malls. I've often seen women in hijab (the full veiling, including the grid across the eyes) shopping in Neiman Marcus and "scurrying through the enclosed Mall." Don't let anyone kid you - women of all ethnicities like SALES!
Last year, just before Thanksgiving, I was in one of the malls and a veiled woman approached me to ask if I would help her determine if the shoes she tried on looked good. I thought she meant she wanted me to adjust them, so I stooped down to help her. She laughed and said in a pure Texas accent "No, no, just stand in front of me and let me know if my husband is coming this way." As I glanced over my shoulder, the lady lifted the hem of her long veil to look at the shoes. "Cool," she said, as the shoes were returned to their box. I laughed and asked "Dallas?" "No, Honey, Houston." That's my best Texas BMO story of 2002!
I think we'll hear more about Muslim women veiling, especially those in the USA, as they apply for driver's licenses and refuse to remove their veils for their photo ID. "A breech of religious freedom," is how some view the requirement. Those posters who have AOL can view an article on this topic in today's AOL lead-in.
Ann Alden
June 4, 2003 - 08:43 am
Anyone looked at the links. Lots of info under those clickables. I am rereading this book and enjoying it as much as I did the first time. All the sites, sounds ,colors, foods, spices---it must be around my lunchtime! And, I like the way Ward backs up much of his info with historical memos. Like the one about languages.
This family had "mucho chutzpa", didn't they? No fear of the "known to them" possibilities of Iran, their long lost home. I had forgotten that only one of the boys wasn't born in the Middle East. No wonder going back was so important to them. Weren't you just overwhelmed when the author, after arriving in Iran, said,"Familiar smells, distinct and faint, dislodged childhood memories. Am immediate feeling of home washed over us. A warm and ancient welcome was in the air." Do we all feel like this when we go "home"??
HarrietM
June 6, 2003 - 08:32 pm
Oh, I'm so delighted! I found a copy of HASSAN on my library shelf and snatched it up. I have to get busy with the initial reading before opening day.
While I was in the library, I skimmed a book by the Maharani of Jaipur. She was the third wife of the polygamous Rajah and an internationally known beauty in the 1930's and 1940's. She writes that when she arrived in Jaipur on her bridal train, her train car was routed to an enclosed section of the railroad depot to observe purdah.
She had no view at all of her new country en route to the palace because of the blocked windows of her auto. She had been raised as a princess in a smaller Indian state that did not have such stringent rules about purdah, but she understood what to expect.
It was a love match and she called her equally glamorous husband Jai...short for Jaipur. She observed purdah within Jaipur, but she and her husband also traveled extensively throughout western countries where the Rani was much photographed by the press and did NOT observe purdah.
The Rani adjusted to her occasional purdah and her co-wives, becoming extremely fond of the children of the other woman. She claimed that her greatest area of difficulty in Jaipur was not purdah, but was instead her husband's casual interpretation of his marriage vows.
Persian, I don't have AOL. Do you think there might be any way to bring a link of the article that you mentioned at the end of your last post to our discussion? I'm trying to sort out in my own mind this issue about driver's license ID photos and the unwilingness of muslim women to remove their veil?
I'm trying to understand this. Didn't these women HAVE to unveil for their passport photos or entry documents into the United States? If they unveiled for those photos, why would their driver license photo ID's now become a great religious issue?
Harriet
Ella Gibbons
June 7, 2003 - 09:39 am
Good point, Harriet!
Certainly these women must have posed unveiled for their passports - I saw in the paper this morning that the Judge ruled the woman in question must unveil for her driver's license. Her lawyer will appeal. Such a strange thing to be happening in America, isn't it?
In thinking of American women who have married into royalty in the Middle East my thoughts went to Rita Hayworth (one of the seductive stars of the early motion pictures when I was young). Can anyone name the royal person she married and from what country? Later I believe Rita's daughter wrote a book about her mother's Altzheimer's disease.
My mind is sketchy about the details.
Am delighted, Harriet, that you will be joining in this discussion - a book not only filled with fascinating people but one that is full of history; many refernces here will also apply to our book "Leap of Faith" by Queen Noor which we will be discussing in August. Queen Noor spent considerable time in Iran after graduation from college and is still very much interested in the country; in fact, her book and her interests lie in Middle Eastern politics.
I didn't mean to detach anyone's attention from this book, it is one we will remember! I love it.
Ella Gibbons
June 7, 2003 - 09:44 am
Mahlia KHANOM! Hahaha
Does this mean "Hello" or "Good Morning" or something similar? I meant to ask you earlier but forgot! While on the subject we should learn something new and so am guessing on that expression!
HarrietM
June 7, 2003 - 10:11 am
Oh Ella, you're talking to a not-so-secret gossip junkie! Rita married the red-hot rake of her era, Aly Khan, and went to live unhappily ever after in his segment of the jet set. Until their divorce, of course. I don't recall his country of origin though.
I don't understand how anyone could expect to get a driver's license with a veiled photo ID. It opens the door to such difficult problems. Theoretically, couldn't a driver's license then be passed around between several women, since all look interchangeable in their veils? How could anyone ascribe responsibility for an auto accident with any certainty? Those are just two of the thoughts that come into my mind.
I believe Saudi Arabia avoids such difficulties by denying women the right to drive?
Yes, I do believe there are possibly some connections between LEAP OF FAITH and HASSAN and reading one will enhance the other. Ella.
Of course there's also the delightful company in this discussion. So glad to be aboard with you all, Ann, Ella, Mahlia, Hats, Harold and Diane. Oh, I hope I haven't forgotten anyone...if so it wasn't intentional.
Harriet
Ginny
June 7, 2003 - 01:41 pm
Reader Alert!! FYI: A new SeniorNet Poll:
Persian
June 7, 2003 - 05:57 pm
Here's a link to the New York Times article about the Muslima (female Muslim) who sued the State of Florida regarding veiling/unveiling for her driver's license. The State DMV offered a logical option: the woman could be photographed in the presense of women only, thus not violating her sense of modesty. And if she really wanted to carry this issue to extremes, IF she was ever stopped by a male police officer, she could REQUEST that she be escorted to the nearest Station and questioned by a female officer. (This is a common request among conservative Muslimas at airports, so that they respond to questioning when necessary, but only in the presence of a woman.)
And in the current troop deployment to Iraq, many more female MP's are arriving to handle interrogating, frisking and talking to neighborhood women.
PLEASE NOTE: This woman is an American convert to Islam. I don't remember reading anything in the press about whether she also had similar problems with travel documents. In Saudi Arabia, it is quite common for women to share travel documents within a family or among friends.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/07/national/07VEIL.html?pagewanted=print&position= ELLA: Khanom = Lady.
HarrietM
June 7, 2003 - 08:34 pm
Mahlia, thank you for the link. Also thank you for the new terminology. Muslima....
Interesting. The muslima, Ms. Freeman, is devoted enough to her religion to interpret its laws strictly...and American enough to be aggressive in defending her beliefs.
Harriet
Ann Alden
June 8, 2003 - 09:41 am
Mahlia, thanks for explaining the correct names for the women and men of Islam. You are always a great help to us when it comes to Middle Eastern topics.
Along with this book, I am reading "Persian Mirrors" by Elaine Sciolino in which she tells of living in and out of Iran for 20 years while reporting for the NYT. Although the book is two years old, it fits right in with "Searching For Hassan".
Harriet, now another title to look for? My goodness, we will be reading all summer right into the discussion for "Leap of Faith"! Greeeeeaaaaaaaattt!
A new SN poster has been in touch with me about reading and discussing this book with us. She lives in England and has made quite an effort to get the book and has been successful. Her name (to me) is Jennifer. She says she will be here tomorrow.
HarrietM
June 8, 2003 - 02:36 pm
Hurrah, Jennifer!
Harriet
Harold Arnold
June 8, 2003 - 05:38 pm
Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in books By Azar NafisiThis is a memoir by an Iranian woman intellectual about her life in the years following the 1979 revolution. It was just published in March 2003 and is perhaps a more serious work than our subject travel title. I note it has been getting considerable notice on CNN. It may have been scheduled for review this weekend. Did anyone catch it?
Persian Pilgrimages: Journeys across Iran, Afshin Molavi. This appears to be another Iran travel story by an Iranian American who returned for a visit. It was published in October 2002 and appears quite similar to our discussion title with the difference that the author was Iranian. I had not heard anything about it but ran across it in the B & N catalog when searching for the other title details.
Persian
June 8, 2003 - 07:29 pm
Here's another selection for consideration and high praise by the author of the book we are now discussing:
PERSEPOLIS by Marjane Satrapi
"Readers who have always wanted to look beyond political headlines and CNN's cliches should plunge into this unique illustrated story. Let Marji be your trusted companion, follow her into the warmth of a Persian home and out along Tehran's turbulent streets during those heady days of revolution. Persepolis opens a rare door to understanding of events that still haunt America, while shining a bright light on the personal humanity and humor so much alive in Iranian families today."
-- Terence Ward, author of Searching for Hassan
Lightening
June 9, 2003 - 01:22 am
My copy hasn't arrived yet...I am excited about it. I send Greetings to you all from England. Jennifer
Lightening
June 9, 2003 - 04:41 am
The book has just arrived....I've only had chance to view first pages...such vivid descriptions. I can see "the hyacinths piercing the wet clay". I am preparing to "leap over bonfires"...WoW!!!
Have family coming soon but will be back when I have studied the 4 chapters.. Jen
Ella Gibbons
June 9, 2003 - 07:42 am
WELCOME JENNIFER FROM ENGLAND!
What a good group we have and Jennifer is ready to leap over the bonfires!!! Not at my age I won't! haha
Not an easy way to rid yourself of the sins you have collected over the year is it, but for children it must have been quite exciting! And the other part of this festival sounds a bit like our own Halloween with children begging for treats, although this is more of a religious ceremony - and they must also eavesdrop?? Was that what the key in the shoe represented?
Is it any wonder that children would remember this remarkable companion; he seems to be teacher, cook, housekeeper, babysitter. All in one!
I need to refresh my mind about the Zoroastrians and will be back sometime today.
Ella Gibbons
June 9, 2003 - 07:47 am
A quick search on Google yielded this article about Zoroastrians:
Zoroastirans
Ann Alden
June 9, 2003 - 09:34 am
Good afternoon, everyone! I have been out visiting the sick and researching a new storm door this morning so am just getting home. Its past my lunchtime!
The jumping of the fire reminded me of the burning of paper with past sins written down on Ash Wednesday. Similar principal but certainly easier for my bones!! Did one have to overhear another's conversation before reporting back to an adult?
Welcome, Lightening, so glad you are going to be in this discussion. We will have fun!
Persian, unfortuneately, I have lost your link to the article about the Zoroastians but will look at Ella's to see if its the same idea. Thanks, Ella.
I also came across the books that Harold has linked here. They do look tempting! Will try the library first!
What do you all think of this family, just loading up and returning to Iran? Only one of the brothers seemed hesitant and afraid, but he went anyway! And, the mother, with her painfully sprained ankle, just brushed all that off, and went on with the trip! What a woman! From the beginning of their lives together, I knew that she and Patrick were going to have an interesting life! Packed right up after he found a job in the Middle East, and carrying her first child, off she went!
HarrietM
June 9, 2003 - 12:50 pm
Oh yes, ANN! Terence Ward writes with the soul of a poet and uses a magical pen.
JEN, I love how you picked up on the poetry right away. I think this book is about Ward's love for the people and places treasured in his childhood memories. The scent of hyacinths, the "dizzying canopy of stars," the flicker of the fires in the twilight evening of an Iranian New Year set a scene so vivid that it's plain how much Ward yearns to go "home" again.
"We were oblivious of distant America. For us children, Iran, not the United States was home."
Once the Ward family had returned to America, political upheaval and war with Iraq threw their former Iranian world into chaos. Terence's family would look at the picture of Hassan and his family and Mr. Ward was fond of quoting:
"It's no use being Irish unless you know the world is eventually going to break your heart." The whole family, parents as well as the boys, understood that this trip might have dangers. I loved the useful Arabic phrases the brothers faxed each other as they planned the trip. Hard headed reality with an Irish guffaw?
"The red blindfold would be lovely, Excellency."
"Thank you very much for showing me your marvelous gun."
"It is exceptionally lovely of you to allow me to travel in the trunk of your car."
HAHAHA. No wonder the brother's wives decided not to join them. I wonder, did the Ward's take out any special insurance before their departure?
I think the trip was motivated at least as much by their love of a dearly remembered Iran as it was for the search for Hassan. It was always possible, as the Wards started on their journey, that they wouldn't succeed in finding Hassan and family. Yet, I don't believe any of them would have seen the trip as a waste if that had been so. Don't you feel the return to the Iranian home of their heart would surely have also been a reward to them?
ELLA, I'm with you! We could stand together and watch the others jump over the bonfires, enjoy the festivities. No jumping for ME!
Harriet
Harold Arnold
June 9, 2003 - 03:40 pm
What do you all think of this family, just loading up and returning to Iran?
I considered it a very unusual family. Apparently the Father was an Irish immigrant, brought up in a big eastern U.S. city. The Father, Patrick Ward, must have been quite precocious since he was an active labor organizer in the pre war years before his 20th birthday, which would not come until 1942. By that date he was a B-17 air Force Bombardier who when the war ended obtained a degree from the University of California followed by graduate work at Columbia.
Terence Ward in the book does not tell us much about the father's field of work but it must have been economics as his second mid-eastern job with the National Iranian Oil Co. was as an Economic advisor. I remember I had an older distant cousin (now dead) with PhD credentials in Economics who about the same time had a similar position with Aramco in Saudi Arabia.
After moving to Tehran, the family spent a lot of time living their lives with the children growing up and going to school there. I thought Ward's description of his school was particularly interesting. This was, the Community School originally founded by protestant missionaries. It seemed quit ecumenical as described in Chapter 3 with a student body that mirrored the United Nations (a paraphrase of the author's words). I thought it interesting that his girlfriend Sara Haim was an Iranian Jew. Apparently as late as the 1960's it was as yet not unusual for native Jews to live and prosper in Islamic cities. I note also that Wards parents had an option to send their children to another school, The American School. They choose the international alternate and this choice quite likely molded their children's future becoming a factor leading to the urge to make the return visit to Iran.
With their early roots so deeply embedded in Iranian soil, enhanced by their remembrance of their more mentor than servant, Hassan, I can certainly understand their decision to make the trip.
Ella Gibbons
June 9, 2003 - 05:55 pm
Although the family lived there for 10 years and the children (now grown with children of their own) retained marvelous, fantastic memories (some perhaps exaggerated in memory) I would have had grave misgivings about going to a country to which the USA would not give visas. Would you have gone? No,no...
Interesting insights the author gives us from time to time:
"Home, the site of all childhood's revelations and sufferings, changes irrevocably, so that we are all in some sense refugees from a lost world....Rebecca Solnit from A BOOK OF MIGRATIONS
Another interesting paragraph:
"Nostagia comes from the Greek word nostos, to return home and algos, pain. The ancients used the term to desribe the state of mind of Hellenic soldiers of Alexander the Great garrisoned in far-off Asia. There was only one effective cure: the journey back.
In both paragraphs "pain and suffering" is suggested or more than that stated as a fact. It's painful to go back. It's painful not to go back. We shall await the outcome of this family's journey back to childhood and friends.
One thing that intrigued me was the custom of the whole city - THE WHOLE CITY - going to the countryside for a celebration of Sizdeh Bidar. I can't imagine such a thing, why it would frighten the farmers half to death to see such a sight around here, and the cows wouldn't give milk for months!!!
Is there any celebration quite like this anywhere in America?
Ella Gibbons
June 9, 2003 - 06:01 pm
Harold, I meant to comment on your statement of Jews in Islamic countries. Is it a fact that none would live in any Islamic countries today for fear of persecution? Even if their roots go back for several decades or a century?
And when we say "Islamic countries" which ones are we talking about? It's a broad term, a religious term, rather like saying Protestant countries or Catholic countries, isn't it? We don't think like that at all here or in most countries, do we?
Ann Alden
June 9, 2003 - 06:09 pm
I believe that the Islamic countries are Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, ?????oh, ahhh, Indonesia, I will go look that up, Ella. According to Bernard Lewis, an authority on Islam, "In space, the realm of Islam extends from Morocco to Indonesia from Kazakhstan to Senegal." So get out your maps!! I have read the list of countries either in this book or in a NYTimes article.
Ella, here's the link to the Many Faiths of Iran.
This family had "mucho chutzpa", didn't they? No fear of the "known possibilities" of
Iran, their long lost home. I had forgotten that only one of the boys wasn't born in the Middle
East. No wonder going back was so important to them. Weren't you just overwhelmed when the
author, after arriving in Iran, said,"Familiar smells, distinct and faint, dislodged childhood
memories. Am immediate feeling of home washed over us. A warm and ancient welcome was in
the air." Do we all feel like this when we go "home"??
Ann Alden
June 9, 2003 - 06:24 pm
Let's try that link again, Ella.
Iran's Many Faiths
Ann Alden
June 9, 2003 - 06:57 pm
Here's a link to a PBS program, with a list of the countries of Islam
Islam:Empire of Faith
Persian
June 9, 2003 - 07:19 pm
ANN - please note that the link provided above does NOT include Afghanistan or the NIS of the former Soviet Union or the Muslim majority countries in Africa.
Perhaps it would help if readers thought of ARAB Muslim countries (Egypt, Iraq, Saudia Arabia - and the other Gulf States - Syria) and NON-ARAB countries like Iran, Indonesia, Afghanistan.
ELLA - I'm not sure where your comment about Jews not living in Islamic countries today comes from, but there are certainly Jewish communities in Egypt, Iraq and Iran. They are diminished in size, of course, since many families have immigrated to Israel or the West, but they are still there.
Lightening
June 10, 2003 - 03:23 am
Thanks Harriet for the Welcome.
Our time zones mean that you are asleep while I am typing this....we are five hours ahead in England. I had a lovely read last night. I was especially interested in the miracle of Patrick not getting into the plane.....There would be no "Hassan".... no Terence Ward. We wouldn't be joininghands across the ocean discussing this. I do recommend tapping into the "Splendor of Persia" under the Terence Ward front page (is that the right description?) That leads onto "Concords Home Page" where I reached "Isafan" a wonderful site. Isafan is now a world Heritage site.
I did check out last week and found that Zoroastrianism gave something to Christianity...its all very interesting.
The English language has many Persian words, in our vocabulary.
Yes "Amazon" helped me out in 2 days! Well done Amazon!
Years ago I went to some Bahai meetings and met wonderful people from Iran. They were so kind and included everyone. I also have a lovely taxi driver from Iran. His family came over here during the troubles with Iraq. Is name is Mohammed and his wife Raquael. He gave me a Koran.. I am a Christian and we share our feelings re faith. Once I needed a taxi in urgency and was amazed that he arrived. He was as full of joy at seeing me as I was
at seeing him....just like a long lost sister/brother. What lovely people they are. I do understand the Ward family going back to seek Hassan.
My local supermarket has just delivered my shopping.. I ordered on the net. Must go now....Reading chapter 3. (Jen)
Ann Alden
June 10, 2003 - 07:40 am
I found this interesting paragraph on the Zoroastrian site:
Surprisingly, many so-called Christian concepts actually were derived from Zoroastrian Aryan
ideas which thrived in Iran for thousands of years until the Arab invasion of Iran around 1300
years ago. Concepts such as heaven and hell, God and the evil adversary ahriman, the coming of the
Saviour or Saoshyant born of a virgin, the end-time purge of the world by Fire followed by the
resurrection of the dead (Ristakhiz), the making fresh of the world (Frashogard) and the final
battle between good and evil leading to the final defeat of evil. These beliefs filtered down to
Judaism during the reign of King Khushru (Cyrus) of Iran.
Although proud to be Aryans, Zoroastrians also believe that all races in the world are created by
God and are equal - a true sign of the real ancient Aryan's nobility and tolerance. Cyrus, King of
Iran who was an Aryan rebuilt the temple of the Jews after freeing the Jews from Babylon - for
this, he is still remembered by the Jews and called the "Anointed of the Lord" in the Bible. The
Jews still celebrate that act of the true Aryans in a festival. Many Jews then stayed in Iran under
Cyrus and his successors such as Darayus, as equal subjects under the King. Books of the Bible
written after this stay have taken all these Zoroastrian concepts, from there they came to
Christianity and other religions. There are scholars who consider Zoroastrianism as such to be the
mother religion of the present day world's faiths.
Ann Alden
June 11, 2003 - 08:32 am
Hi Lightening, so glad you are reading and enjoying the book. I saw an Iranian professor from NYC on book tv
HarrietM
June 11, 2003 - 08:32 am
I know this book is written from the point of view of someone who loves Iran. As a matter of fact ALL of the Wards were attracted to and/or spent time in the mid-east in an attempt to get back to their roots.
The Iran that I see portrayed so far is a land of historic tolerance and civilization...NOT the frequently publicized newsreel Iran of violence toward Americans and political kidnapping. Honestly, it goes against all of my prior impressions. I'm trying to readjust my beliefs. Terence Ward's picture of Iran is SO different from my previous impressions that I'm also trying to evaluate whether Iran's history is being presented through too loving and biased an eye?
ANN has brought up the traditions of the prophet Zoroaster, and his teachings that were later incorporated into so many of our Judaic-Christian religious beliefs. How remarkable! I'm certainly learning a lot.
Even though Alexander the Great is credited by western history as being the first monarch to govern conquered territories in an enlightened manner, it was apparently the great Persian philosopher-king Cyrus who was HIS role model. Most of us have heard of Alexander...how many of us know about Cyrus? I must admit that I didn't. It seems that the tradition of human rights and respect for individual liberty has long existed in Iran.
I don't know enough about mideast history to be able to tell if this account has been slanted in some way...perhaps through omission of certain facts? I am extremely impressed if I am reading a historical account of Iranian tradition?
I wonder how much was the Ward family multi-lingual? How much were their guides English-speaking? How different would their experiences entering Iran have been if English was their only language?
Harriet
Ann Alden
June 11, 2003 - 09:23 am
Hi Lightening, so glad you are reading and enjoying the book. I saw an Iranian professor from NYC on book tv last week who said that many of us pronounce "IRAN" incorrectly. Most of us say: I RAN which as he said is a form of locomotion. The correct pronunciation might be: "Ear Ron", "Ear Ran", "Er Ron" or "Er Ran". I don't know which but I do try not to use "I RAN" anymore.
Along with Harriet, I am learning so much. I know that Cyrus has been brought up to me sometime in my education but certainly not in such a heroic way. Also, Esther, too is mentioned whom I have read about just recently. Her actual history of marriage to a Persian king didn't stay with me until I read it here. And the feast of Purim is in her honor! Whoa!
My good impressions of the book come from this young man's style of writing,too. He does bring you right into his story plus the history of Iran. I am enjoying it a second time.
Our librarian leader of my book discussion group is now reading it. She is quite aware of Iran, Persia, and Shiraz PLUS she studied the Persian language while doing her language requirement for college. She says that found the language quite easy to learn as it sounds is so lovely and smooth and romantic.
Harold Arnold
June 11, 2003 - 09:29 am
There has not been much mention so far in our discussion of Hassan who is very much a leading character in the book. The Author gives us quite a bit of information on him and his family in Chapter 2.
From this I have him pictured in my mind as a real take-charge servant type of guy. To me in many ways Hassan seems comparable to the butlers, Hudson, in the Masterpiece Theater dramas and Stevens in "Remains Of The Day." While Hassan, most un-English like, did not wear a stuffed shirt and performed his duties in a most informal atmosphere with a close semi-personal interface between servants and family, he was still the one responsible for the running of the household and seems to have taken this responsibility with much the same dedication as the English prototypes. The existence of the personal bond between the Ward family members and their servants, particularly Hassan, must have been a factors prompting the family three decades later to return to visit him.
I think there is another less obvious and perhaps generally unrecognized character in this book. As Thomas Hardy made Egdon Heath a "Character" in his novel, "Return of the Native," so Iran, its people, its religion, and its culture, take on that status in this travelogue. In these early chapters we get a description of this culture and an understanding of its importance to the Wards including their later life career choices and their urge to make the return visit to Iran.
Harold Arnold
June 11, 2003 - 10:28 am
Here is a link to a site with information on the development of the Persian religion of Zoroaster. By the first century a version of Zoroastrianism known as Mithraism became popular in Rome particularly among the Roman Legions. HG Wells in his well known "Outline of History" stresses its position in the 1st and 2nd centuries as a viable alternative to Christianity.
Click Here for Mithraism- The Legacy of the Roman Empire's Final Pagan State Religion.
Ella Gibbons
June 11, 2003 - 12:54 pm
Jen: Does your Iranian taxi driver speak English well? Is he happy in England do you think? Treated well? Do you have many such minority groups in your country? Interesting that he gave you a copy of the Koran, a reverse treatment of missionaries isn’t it?
Afghanistan is not an Arab country? But Osama bin laden and his group (ex-Saudi Arabians) were certainly protected by these non-Arabs. I find it fascinating that Iran and Afghanistan, those two particularly, are not Arab countries; how stupid I have been for years lumping all these countries together as Arabian. It’s about time I learned better and I thank you all.
Is this a cause of violent outbreaks at times, such as between Iraq (Arab) and Iran (non-Arab?) or was there another reason for that long war between the border countries?
Hello Harriet – I just read your last posting and I see that you are learning and questioning much also. It’s all new to me; I can’t quite take it all in yet and I wondered about the same things as yourself. A marvelous childhood, but they were children and the parents felt close to the one couple that worked for them. I believe one other friend is mentioned, but what of the adults and the political scene around them?
The book says they did not associate with other Americans but embraced the culture of Iranians.. Iran has been in conflict for the last what? 30-40 years? And yet to read this book is to love the country? I don’t know!
I’m somewhat confused about dates here, I’m reading this:
”To accommodate the huge U.S. military population that kept mushrooming each year, there was the Officers’Club, the NCO Club and the Castle Club, which kept soldiers off the streets and in the bars. There was also the British Club, the American Club and the German Club – pg. 52.
What year was that?
The author’s style of writing is non-linear and I have to stop and read something before or after that to determine when this period in Iran’s history was; Jimmy Carter’s problems with the Iranians are all too present in my mind. It doesn't seem that long ago.
Ann Alden
June 11, 2003 - 02:18 pm
I believe that the presence of American soldiers was in the 60's and 70's. They had an embassy there and supported the Shah. Carter's problems started in 1979 with the taking of the embassy hostages. Did anyone read the book about the company's hostages that were rescued in Iran around the same time. Ross Perot hired this general to go in after his employees. I believe that Ken Follett wrote that book. I read it but just can't remember the author's name for sure.
Persian
June 11, 2003 - 03:34 pm
I'm so glad that y'all are really enjoying this book. It brings back a lot of good memories for me, too.
Regarding Hassan, almost every well-to-do Iranian family, as foreigners had a "Hassan-type" person in their household. Some were more endearing - as Hassan and his family certainly are - others not so and obviously used their position to their own greed and advantage. Personally, I've known, loved, respected and learned a lot from seveal "Hassans." They are combinations of Household Managers (NOT servants), companions to the children - which means teaching, scolding, rewarding, protecting, etc. Iranians generally have large families themselves, so what's 2 - 3 more kids to look after.
Among the non-Embassy foreign personnel (usually corporate sector CEO's and/or senior level contractors affiliated with oil), it was essential to have someone like Hassan in the household; representing the family name and household on the "Iranian Street" so no cheating goes unnoticed. And the members of the family feel safe with their own Hassan. And in many cases, one would confide something to a Hassan, which would not normally be told to parents or spouses, especially if it was a matter of household safety or reputation.
JEN - I'm so glad that you're enjoying the book along with the rest of us. Yes, there is very much that is not well known about Iran in the West. We seem to be up-to-date on all the negatives of the former Pahlavi regime and then the Khomeni atrocities (including the American hostages). But little is really understood about the Persian way of life and the people themselves.
Interestingly, I read in today's news that Sec. Rumsfeld is going to nominate a retired General to take over as Secretary of the Army who was involved in the Special Ops. planning for the rescue of the American hostages. You'll remember how badly that whole endeavor went.
My sense of Terry Ward's recollections of his family's life in Iran and their love and respect for Hassan and his family is that he is telling the truth from his family's standpoint. He is also including alot of information about Iran as a country, the hostilities in the region, the interaction (or lack thereof) with other Americans - many Americans preferred to interact very little with other Americans (especially those in the oil community) and chose Iranians as their friends instead. And it was quite common for Americans to send their kids to school with Iranians, NOT just to the American School or to American-type schools on the posts.
Over the years, I've met qutie a few people like the Wards, many of whom recall their lives in Iran with great fondness. Almost always, they were of the upper class and ventured very little (if at all) into Southern Tehran (the poorest section of the city).
ELLA - Your confusion about Arabs vs non-Arabs is quite common and understandable. Usually when Westerners think of " an Islamic country" they associate it ONLY with Arabs. But as we've learned that is not true. Arab Muslims have been in the press relentlessly in connection with the Palestinian problems and when the written and print media get something going, they seldom let go. American history as taught in public schools (from elementary to high school) is really not clear about the regional/religious differences. So don't scold yourself too badly. And the good part is that now you know, you can help others to understand, too.
Ella Gibbons
June 11, 2003 - 04:54 pm
A quick Google search for the causes of the Iran-Iraq war provided this:
Iran-Iraq war Quoting from the above article -
"The Iran-Iraq War was multifaceted and included religious schisms, border disputes, and political differences. Conflicts contributing to the outbreak of hostilities ranged from centuries-old Sunni-versus-Shia and Arab-versus-Persian religious and ethnic disputes, to a personal animosity between Saddam Hussein and Ayatollah Khomeini. Above all, Iraq launched the war in an effort to consolidate its rising power in the Arab world and to replace Iran as the dominant Persian Gulf state. Phebe Marr, a noted analyst of Iraqi affairs, stated that "the war was more immediately the result of poor political judgement and miscalculation on the part of Saddam Hussein," and "the decision to invade, taken at a moment of Iranian weakness, was Saddam's".
Iraq and Iran had engaged in border clashes for many years and had revived the dormant Shatt al Arab waterway dispute in 1979. Iraq claimed the 200-kilometer channel up to the Iranian shore as its territory, while Iran insisted that the thalweg--a line running down the middle of the waterway--negotiated last in 1975, was the official border. The Iraqis, especially the Baath leadership, regarded the 1975 treaty as merely a truce, not a definitive settlement.
The Iraqis also perceived revolutionary Iran's Islamic agenda as threatening to their pan-Arabism. Khomeini, bitter over his expulsion from Iraq in 1977 after fifteen years in An Najaf, vowed to avenge Shia victims of Baathist repression. Baghdad became more confident, however, as it watched the once invincible Imperial Iranian Army disintegrate.........
Lightening
June 12, 2003 - 01:01 am
.....8.45a.m.11June.
Ella. I was just "lurking" but noticed your question.."are there many "minority" groups in England?........Gosh, I am a Christian and we are advised that soon this will be a Moslem Country (Derek Prince). Many of our old churches are empty and being sold and used as cinemas or Hindu temples. Though new large Pentecostal groups are emerging! Thank God!
My next door neighbours are from Pakistan and have lived next to me for two years...It is a different culture but we get on very well indeed....They are all married to first cousins and very young. Their house is always full of relatives and they fetch and carry for one another. No-one is ever alone. They take it in turn to transport the children to school etc., and to do the meals consequently there is a lot of to and fro traffic parking outside in our little close which doesn 't worry me but some neighbours are a bit upset!!! There are strict racism rules in this country now.You can see how problems arise.
A neighbourhood called Alum Rock nearby, is a no go area. On the Moslem shop windows it warns "no whites after 8p.m".
There are quite a number of gang killings in this city nowadays.......As a Christian I have friends from all over the world living nearby....dearest ones from the W. Indies....(same culture).
The cultures of Pakistan and Iran are not the same!
Gosh !!! All this for a lurker!
Ann Alden
June 12, 2003 - 07:02 am
KEEP ON LURKING, LIGHTENING!! Your posts bring us up to date with the English miasma of faiths.
Lightening
June 12, 2003 - 01:11 pm
.9.30p.m. 12.6.03.
Ann I have just spent an hour doing some background research.. fromthe "Google"...putting the site to test..
Was captivated by the"Persia or Iran a Brief History" and I tapped into "Iransaga" reams and reams and reams and.........I had to close for a while as I've some reading to do...you know what!!!!
T.T.F.N. (Ta Ta For Now.......or slang for Bye bye for now).Oh by the way Mohammed would like to go back to Iran but he and his family have made a life for themselves here.
Best Wishes to all of you in America.
Persian
June 12, 2003 - 01:29 pm
Hullo Jen - I noticed your comment "On the Moslem shop windows it warns "no whites after 8p.m." and wondered where you're located. It's sad how relations have deteriorated. I've got several good Iranian friends who relocated to England, established themselves, educated their children in English schools, and made wonderful friends among the British. My husband, an Egyptian Muslim professor of literature, did his Ph.D. at Sheffield, traveled all over the country and still is in touch regularly with British friends he made many years ago during his graduate student days. Glad you're enjoying the book!
Lightening
June 13, 2003 - 04:31 am
Mahlia....Alum Rock,Birmingham, is populated by people from Pakistan. I feel sorry for the tiny minority of "English" folk still living there as the racism is against them. There are some little"Englanders" living in the country but you cannot go back and this is now a multi-cultural society (ask Tony Blair). Yes, the Iranian/Persian folk I have met have been from the higher social system...They had to be to afford to come over here. My neighbours and I get on well but I have learned, during the Iraq war not to mention America.."I hate Bush" said Azar.... "and Israel".I have a wonderful American/Jewish friend living and working for the Lord in Jerusalem so I know that I must not discuss Esther Korson with them.
Returning to "Hassan". I really enjoyed the car journey and the vivid descriptions of the terrain. "One way to Paradise" was inscribed on the bus...wow what a "bone-shaker" that journey was indeed.
As a Christian the Bible has been part of my daily reading for years and now I am enriched by the story of Cyrus brought up to date...almost in 3D. What a wonderful, wonderful man he was...you can forgive his vanity....He did a mighty work for the Jews and for us also. God used him in His purpose for mankind....in due time the Heavenly Father gave us a Saviour through the Jewish race!
The story of Esther is special to me as my friend Esther is known to Christians all over the world as the second Esther(there is an amazing story of faith and courage).
Cyrus has become a living "entity" Here Ward uses his gift of description and brings Cyrus to life through the written word"
Harold Arnold
June 13, 2003 - 09:13 am
As I said in an earlier post, I was surprised at the character of the Persian King Cyrus the Great. My misunderstanding of ancient Persian character stemmed from the history of the Greco-Persian wars in which the Persians were always depicted as Asiatic barbarians and the Greeks as the saviors of civilization. It was quite a revelation to read on page 77:
From "philosopher king" of the Greeks, Cyrus was elevated even higher by the Old Testament prophets who described the Persian as a savior-king touched by the hand of Yahweh. Ezra and Isaiah proclaimed him "the Lord's anointed." Jeremiah declared, "Yahweh stirs up the soul of the King of the Medes to smite the wicked harlot, Babylon."
And on page 78
Second Isaiah hails Cyrus as a "messiah."
Some how I seemed to have missed or forgotten this history I should have acquired from my "Old Testament" history course in 1950. There follows links to material on Cyrus the Great and his less worthy successor a century later Xerxes and the Greco-Persian War.
Click here for a Sketch on Cyrus the Great Click Here For Battle of Salamis Click Here For Battle of Salamis (Poetry) Click Here for Xerxes
Ann Alden
June 13, 2003 - 09:21 am
Harold, we were posting at the same time. Good afternoon and thanks for those links!
Isn't this man's description of the terain and the monuments wonderful? I wish that Iran was still open to us but after looking at the news from there this morning, I'm a little bit put off. Seems that the college students are on the rampage sinece the goverment is considering privatizing the universities. The Ayatollah is all for just letting the students wear themselves out while his soldiers or police stand by to prevent anything horrible from happening.
Did you know that the United States adopted a way of delivering the mail from the Perians? And uses their motto,too. Persia derived a way for delivering their mail on horseback or camel? And we decided to do that also with our Pony Express. Then we stole their motto which was "Neither rain, sleet or snow or the dark of night" will stop the mail.
Ann Alden
June 13, 2003 - 09:33 am
Good grief, that last link is a lulu! My head is spinning from trying to keep track of everyone involved in the history. I had always thought that Darius was a son of Cyrus, but no, he was a distant cousin? And, married to Cyrus daughter? And, so and so on! The begats are with us once again!
I thought I was doing well to explain to Ella who are Arabs and who aren't, plus explaining the Muslim connections. Also, about Mohammed and the Shiites and ths Sunnis. And, then I went to read about Cyrus, Darius and Xerxces! I'm overwhelmed here!
Persian
June 13, 2003 - 10:07 am
Here's an interesting link for Persian names (some are the same in Arabic, too). Note the Persian spellings for Dariush (Darius), Kourosh (Cyrus), Zartosht (Zoroaster), Yaghoub (Jacob), Yaya (John), Yauness (Jonas), Yousef (Jonas). Although not listed on this link, the Persian and Arabic name for Jesus is Issa.
http://www.geocities.com/persian_names/ For those who might be interested, here is a link to some beautiful poems about Christianity in modern Persian poetry. This genre is not well known in the West (except to Persians).
Peter Makari (an Egyptian Christian and son of the Presbyterian USA's General Assembly Middle East representative) comments: "The Christian population in Iran is 80% Armenian Apostolic. The Armenians are mainly concentrated in the cities of Tehran, Isfahan, and Azerbaijan, and have maintained their unique Indo-European heritage and their linguistic identity. Catholics comprise most of the rest of the Christian population, including Chaldeans and Assyrians and a few Armenian Catholics. There are some Protestants in Iran. Among these are Anglicans and those with a Presbyterian lineage. The Synod of the Evangelical Church of Iran is made up of the Armenian, Assyrian, and Persian evangelical churches. Finally, a very small number of Greek Orthodox and a very few non-ecumenical Protestant groups complete the picture of Iranian Christians."
http://www.farsinet.com/ChristInPersianPoetry/modern_poets.html
Harold Arnold
June 13, 2003 - 03:33 pm
Lightening, thank you for your posts giving us a U.K. perspective on some of the issues raised by our book. We need and value input from others throughout the world and in particular hope to attract more English speaking participants from places outside of North America. Please post here often your thoughts concerning the book particularly in instances when your interpretation differs from posted views. We value your interpretations and want to hear them!
Lightening
June 14, 2003 - 05:20 am
Dear Harold,
Thank-you for the encouragement....I needed that today for more reasons than one. I shall indeed keep in touch. Every blessing. Jenny.
Ann Alden
June 14, 2003 - 06:49 am
Hello, everyone! Today we start on the next section of the book which starts out in Shiraz. I liked Terry Ward's fine description of that city and its bazaar but went to another book for a more detailed description and found this:
Shiraz is by far my favorite city in Iran. Shiraz, is a city of moderation, calm, and good sense. It may be overcrowded with the hundreds of thousands of Iranians who migrated there during Iran's long war with Iraz, and it may be polluted and hot in the summer. But, Shiraz opens to rich, rolling farmland, with a good highway that leads straight to Persepolis, less than an hour away. Shiraz is not a place of religious pilgrimage, reflecting instead the glories of pre-Islamic Iran. So the Islamic Republic has largely left it alone, pouring money into other cities like Qom and Isfahan. Shiraz is a place of roses, nightingales, rich people who smoke opium, and some of the best wine-producing grapes in the world. It is impossible to to go to Shiraz and ot feel the power of its beauty and the magic of its poetry. Some Iranians consider Shirazis lazy. I find them mellow and good-natured."From "Persian Mirrors" by Elaine Sciolino.
My first reaction is one of laughter when I read that the Shirazis are mellow and good natured. Who wouldn't be while smoking opium?? Tee hee! But its here that we find Mrs. Ward having a difficult time with her head covering and her sons nervously protecting her from the public eye when an Iranian medical student steps forward and helps her to get the covering back on her head and her clothing straightened. The lady was not embarrassed or horrified by Mrs Ward's predicament but the men were worried that she would be what??? Arrested? Mercy!
Harold, those links left me dizzy with much information to digest. I also must correct myself that Darius was Cyrus's grandson? At least that's what I read somewhere. On your link, it says "distant cousin". It doesn't really matter as it was so long ago.
Ann Alden
June 14, 2003 - 06:57 am
I forgot that I wanted to comment on the bazaar from the other book that I am reading.
"The bazaar is not only the commercial heart of an Iranian city; it is also a densely built community center--with mosques, public baths, back rooms--that serves as a meeting place and center of communications. The mosque is not only a place of worship but also a vehicle for political mobilization." From "Persion Mirrors" again.
I have company this weekend so won't be in here frequently but will try to keep checking while entertaining.
Lightening
June 14, 2003 - 10:18 am
In England the Mosques are known to be places of Political intrigue....especially at this time with a high percentage of young men from Pakistani backgrounds who joined Al Khiada! Some from the Midlands saying they are wrongly imprisoned in the American prison camp!The Saddam Hussein Mosque in Birmingham was funded by Saddam and I met a man in the Post office who said what a great and Godly man Saddam is...!!! The Central Mosque in this city is quite safe and the moslems going there are from many countries.but the Saddam one is in an area of Pakistani peoples mainly and the young men are being encouraged to join the Holy War...which is not over!!!Prior to 11.11. I kept hearing a Moslem Radio station in this city calling for a Holy War and young men to join...I notified a city councillor and he laughed at me!!! This country is not a safe place to be anymore dear American cousins...I'm off to have a good read now and will enjoy more so because we are reading together "Hassan".
Lightening
June 15, 2003 - 02:18 pm
I recommend the Lonely Planet Guide for Iran...wonderful section on Shiraz. Glad to find you again Senior Net....Lost you for most of today Sunday 15th June...now 10.20 p.m. England.
Ann Alden
June 16, 2003 - 06:44 am
I couldn't get on here until today. Tried yesterday before our Father's Day dinner but no luck. Glad we are back on today.
Jenny, what interesting info you have at your fingertips or should I say from your window in England. So, what Terry Ward and the other author says about the bazaars and mosques is true, not only in Iran, but even outside the Muslim strongholds of the M.E. They are places of intrigue.
Persian
June 16, 2003 - 06:55 am
ANN - I had to chuckle at your comment about mosques: "They are places of intrigue. I think anyone who has served on committes or Boards within their places of worship has encountered "intrigue." Keep in mind that each mosque, just like each church or synagogue, is different. A mosque with a predominantly Pakistani congregation would be quite different from one which attracted Saudis or other Gulf Muslims. One which provided a place of worship, school and community center for Iranians would be different from one which attracted mainly Asian Muslims. It's not "a religion thing;" it's cultural.
In my local area, we have several large, well established mosques.
Each is known for serving a specific community. Although any/all Muslims are welcome, the core community in each mosque is drawn from a regional home base. My husband made a comment a few months ago in response to my question about why he continued to attend prayer services at the University, rather than go to the closest mosque. He said "too many Egyptians in the mosque." That's pretty telling, since he is Egyptian himself!
Ann Alden
June 16, 2003 - 07:00 am
Oh, yes, Persian, its a feeling of belonging that leads to all that intrigue in most organizations, isn't it? As though a person has finally made it and can help to control something!
Here's an interesting and timely article from NYT about Iran's youth of today.
Iran's Youth
Ella Gibbons
June 16, 2003 - 09:14 am
ANN - I cannot get to articles from the NYTimes without subscribing which I do not care to do; but perhaps others can. I'm a bit behind but have read everyone's post and it's a fascinating discussion.
JEN: I was very interested in what you said about the Pakistanis and the Iranians in England. You did mention that they are probably from a higher level of their culture as they had to have money to come to your country.
How can you tell one from another (Iranian vs. Pakistan) without talking to them or asking? Are their features so different? We have learned that Iranians are not arabs, so their coloring perhaps is different? The images we have seen on TV of Afghanistans and Iraqs are so similar - they are lovely people with dark hair, soft browneyes, the lovely tan skin coloring (which our young people pay to get here in America in tanning parlors!) and their children!!! Gorgeous children!
But how does one tell one culture from another? Of course, it doesn't matter as they will all be English eventually if they remain there. Do they all speak good English?
I'm wondering how an immigrant decides to go to England, rather than America, or Germany, etc.? How do they make that decision? Is it because of immigration policies?
And why do they leave? Wouldn't they miss their friends and country dreadfully?
Are they well educated? Do they take well-paid positions in England, such as law or medicine, etc.? You mentioned, Jen, a taxi driver from Iran - what was his profession in his home country or did you ask?
I'm just curious. I haven't noticed an influx of Middle Easterners in our small little corner of the world, but in the larger cities I know there is a substantial group.
Isn't it true in America (and perhaps in England) that before you can get a visa here you must show support from relatives or a job waiting for you?
I could look up immigration laws, but I just don't have time today. Family matters have prevented me from getting here lately and then the glitch on Seniornet scared me yesterday - I thought perhaps it was my computer!!! I just got a new one not long ago and I do not need those kinds of problems again! I'm a nervous Nellie when it comes to computers!
On pg. 86 our author says - "Richard still couldn't tell the ruling trinity apart: Khomeini, Khamenei, Khatami. He had given up trying and simply called them "the three K's."
Well, here comes a stupid question. Isn't it the last one of those three, Khatami, that is now the president of Iran? Or is that his title?
And why do these countries have names so similar? Hassan, Hussein - very confusing to westerners.
Another statement here on this page says "WE felt exposed, vulnerable and self-conscious, but the shoppers were completely oblivious of us." Can't believe that, can you?
They must have stuck out like light bulbs in the places they visited; even though the mother's head was covered!
Persian
June 16, 2003 - 10:38 am
ANN - actually I was thinking of the "political" intrigue within the places of worwhip (at least in my experience), which can readily get out of hand.
ELLA - while you are awaiting Jen's response, perhaps I can offer some explanation about your questions:
ARABS vs NON-ARABS: Afghanis, Iranians (as you already know)and Pakistanis are NOT Arabs. The majority of Iraqis ARE Arabs, excepting those Shi'a in the South, which are predominatly of Iranian heritage AND the Kurds in the Northern regions of Iraq.
PHYSICAL APPEARANCE: Individuals from Pakistan are often confused with Indians and people from Bangladesh, since they tend to have the darker complexions. Many also sound the same (either face-to-face or on TV and radio), especially when speaking English, since the rhythm and tone of their speech is British-inflected, rather than the more casual American English. Of course, when speaking in their native languages, they sound quite dissimilar.
Many Central Asians, like the Afghanis from the North, range from very light complexions (with blue or green eyes and reddish-brown hair, NOT Black) to the deeper skin tones of the Southerner. The Northern Afghan (men and women) is usually extremely tall (some with very large hawk-type noses)and aggressive by nature. The Northern Afghan still thinks of himself as being from a Warrior heritage and among the rural tribes and clans, they are absolutely vicious fighters. Afghans can also be more Asian-appearing, including the very distinctive features of Mongolia. One of the most unusual men I've ever encountered had a perfectly round face (almost like a McDonald's smiley face)and so did several of the men who were traveling with him.
The distinctions among Iranians are similar. Those in the North are fair with lighter eyes and brown/red and sometimes brown/gold hair coloring. Individuals from the South are of darker complexions.
DEMOGRAPHICS: I don't know how far you are from Columbus, Dayton or Toledo, but there are quite large Middle Eastern communities in all three areas. And as populations increase and people move further into the suburbs, you may indeed notice "new neighbors."
RELOCATION STRATEGIES: Unless an individual or family are political asylees (seeking asylum and afraid for their lives), which has a specific set of regulations for immigration quite different than for ordinary immigrants, family tends to be the biggeset draw on where individuals will settle. England, Germany and other parts of Western Europe are much closer (and often more familiar) to people from the Middle East. Hence, they choose Europe. Many have been educated in Europe and so have their children. But then, so have many been educated in America and/or Canada. Families, former colleagues, military comrades, or other personal contacts are a big draw when choosing to relocate. The procedure can be tedious - lots of paperwork - so its very helpful to have known and trusted assistance.
I can't speak for England or any other country, of course, but in the USA, the primary issue for Immigration when considering to grant residency is that the individual/family not become dependent on our Social Services system. Thus sponsorship from a close family member (spouse, parents, sibblings)and proof of income are essential.
THE 3 K'S:
You're absolutely correct - Seyed Mohamed KHATAMI is the Iranian President. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei is the current supreme religious leader, and of course, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, was the former religious leader who came to power during the Iranian Revolution of the late 70's-'80's.
NAMES: The names of Hassan and Hussein may sound confusing to Westerners, who are simply unfamiliar with names like these. But think how names like Gerry and Gary, or Molly and Milly must sound to people from non-Western cultures. Men's names usually incorporate the individual's name, PLUS that of his Father and often his grandfather.
For example, my husband is Mohamed, his father is Hussein, his paternal grandfather is Mohamed, and his great-grandfather is Ali. Thus, in Egypt (which is my husband's birth country), his name is Mohamed Hussein Mohamed Ali_____________ (family name). American databanks simply are not set up to handle these lengthy names. (Case in point: Remember how immigrant names were changed at Ellis Island in the 19th century.)
My Persian name is Mahliheh (shortened to Mahlia as a family nickname). In Arabic, I am known as Um Daoud (Mother of David); in my own Persian family (especially among the younger and more distant cousins), I am called Mahlia Khanom (Mrs./Lady Mahlia)as a gesture of respect for my age. When talking to me face-to-face, I am called simply Khanom.
Now let's see what Jen has to say about her neighbors in England.
Ann Alden
June 16, 2003 - 12:18 pm
Persian, the complete descriptions of the different countries' physical appearances is handy knowledge for all of us to have. I knew that the Pakistanis and Indians are similar in physical looks but wasn't aware of the tall Afganistan men. And blonde hair, and blue eyes? Is this the Aryan heritage?
Ella and I live in a suburb of Columbus but most of our Columbus immigrants are reported to be either from Viet Nam or Solmolia, although, Ella and I saw the mosque featured in a book about Islam that is right outside Perrysberg,Ohio while we were on our way to visit with the Toledo Trotters. Perrysberg is southeast of Toledo.
Back to the "intrigue", one of the places that I believe I mentioned was the Iranian bazaar. According to the reading that I have done, the bazaar is not only commercial heart of an Iranian city;"it is also a densely built comunity center--with mosques, public baths, back rooms--that serves as a meeting place and center of communication."
Ann Alden
June 16, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Here's a nice set of pictures of the Toledo Mosque.
USMosquesThe mosque sits out on the landscape like a giant birthday cake and we have often wondered if we could tour the inside of it. Now, that I have their number, I might call and ask before we go up again.
Assuming that you have been inside a mosque, I find this picture with the circle of lights inside the NYC mosque and am wondering if there is any significance to the hanging of the lights like that? NYC Muslim Cultural Center
When you click on this link, you have to use the map and click on the eastern US and then click on the NYC center.
Persian
June 16, 2003 - 01:09 pm
ANN - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply "blonde hair," but a softer brown (often with reddish highlights), rather than the deep black of the other regions. There is a lot of Caucasian and Circassian ancestry in Northern and Western Iranians. Hence, the lighter complexions, eyes and skin tones.
Ann Alden
June 16, 2003 - 01:12 pm
Perisan, were you able to click through to the pictures of the NYC Muslim Center? Do you know why the circle of lights inside?
Ella Gibbons
June 16, 2003 - 05:38 pm
Oh, golly, Um Daoud Mahlia Khanom, I will never, NEVER remember all of that! The countries that are non-arab and those that are and the names, WELL, let’s just say that when next I meet someone that I think may be arab or non-arab or middle-easterner (which is unlikely as I am now almost 75 years of age and have not met one yet, although I would like to – I love anything new – languages, people, cultures, anything new, life gets boring at times unless you do encounter something of interest!) I will try to politely ask what they would like to be called – a short name if you please!
And, yes, I do agree that our names and many, many of our words are confusing to foreigners – just think of how many ways there are to spell two – too – to!! That’s just for starters!
Thanks, ANN, for the picture of that mosque in Toledo. When first we encountered that a few years ago on our way to visit our daughter in Michigan I was startled! Here was a mosque sitting in a cornfield way off the road and all by itself and I thought I was in the Magic Kingdom and some fairy princess had put dust in my eyes or something! Very, very strange. And, yes, I would love to visit it and take a tour!!
I’ve been trying for years to take a tour of our own beautiful Greek Cathredal – ANN, YOU AND I BOTH HAVE BEEN TRYING TO – and it sits in our city, so why can’t we get that accomplished – maybe this year????? How many years have we said that?
There is a bit of a Russian look to the mosques or is that me???
And why do all those sites, ANN, that you gave us say at the top – AGA KHAN ARCHIVES ?
Now as to immigration laws of the USA, I found two sites (quickly) – here they are and I do believe that department is now under the Homeland Security Dept.. I thought I might put them here and let HAROLD interpret it all for us as he is the lawyer among us!!
HAROLD!!! I read stuff quickly – is there a lottery of 55,000 new immigrants a year and when it says “lottery” does that mean all the applicants are put in a box and X number are drawn, after first ascertaining if all the forms are correct, etc.? I thought we took X number from each country, doesn’t that seem more fair?
Immigration Laws Immigration Laws WE must get back to the book, but we are learning so much here.
Lightening
June 17, 2003 - 02:58 am
Ann I did check out the NYC Centre..in fact I looked into a few of the U.S. Mosques......Ours are not so grand...I would like to go inside one just for a peek also! I found another small site on "Cyrus" and was interested to learn that he was buried with his Arms , jewellery and cloak. The cloak played an important part in Persian Inauguration rituals...a Babylonian custom.....I thought of Elijah's mantle being passed onto Elisha......and the importance of Jesus' cloak.......does this all stem from the same history! Wow!.....Apparantly Cyrus'body was desecrated by throwing it to the ground to prevent the coronation of a foriegner.....when Alexander invaded...Alexander ordered the Restoration.... All fascinating..
Lightening
June 17, 2003 - 04:26 am
Silly me...I've just gone upstairs only to stop halfway...not the legs this time! I suddenly realised why Cyrus had to be buried with his cloak...Because no-one could take the mantle from him..He was the Great Cyrus. .Elisha was given the Mantle of Elijah and a double portion of God's Spirit.These were all great men of God and part of the unfolding of God's plan for the redemption of mankind. Jesus' cloak was torn in two when He gave up His Spirit...and the veil of the temple was torn in two..meaning we could go directly to the Father (God) because of His Son's sacrifice. There is now only one mediator between God and Mankind Jesus Christ the Son..I have a new understanding of the Book of Isaiah now..Cyrus was included for a reason...and can thankyou all and Terence Ward and "Hassan" (inadvertantly) for opening my eyes and mind...I was having memory problems due to thyroid condition but this is helping wonderfully.Cyrus always pointed the way to Jesus Christ for Christians but many still won't see it... .."what is the meaning of the water of life?" asks Hafez. Jesus said "whoever drinks of this water shall never thirst"..said Jesus to a Samaritan Woman..(outcasts to the Jews) "The water I give becomes a perpetual Spring watering forever with eternal life." (John4:7-13).to me Jesus is the Water of Life..Just popping into my "cloistered garden" for a cup of tea..Jen.
Harold Arnold
June 17, 2003 - 08:29 am
I realize that there had been much non-European immigration to the U.K. since WW II tending to change the ethnic characteristics of the UK. I think much of this resulted from the easy immigration allowed from commonwealth countries such as Pakistan and others. It would appear that many minorities in the U.K. as in the U.S. tend to congregate in certain areas that take on the look and feel of their motherland. I am wondering if the U.K. is becoming an Islamic country, are if it just appears that way from the several majority enclaves that dominate certain areas of large cities where these immigrants congregate?
I went to a Google search for UK Population statistics. I see the U.K. just completed a new census in 2001. There are official Government sites giving the details. I looked through some of this material but like all census reports, this one too defies quick interpretation. I finally found a Staffordshire University site that offered what appears to be a pretty good summary.
Click Here. The following is a brief summary:
U.K. population in 2002 (apparently based on the 2001 census), is given as 59.778 million, consisting of 81.5% English, 9.6% Scottish, 2.4 % Irish, 1.9% Welsh, 1.8% Ulster, and only 2.8% West Indian, Pakistani and others. This would amount to about 1.674 million individuals.
U.K. Religion composition was summarized as 40 million, Anglican & Roman Catholic, 1.6 million other Protestants, 1.5 million Muslin, 0.35 million Jews, 0.5 million Sikh, and 0.5 million Hindu. This totals about 44 million people who identified a religious preference leaving some 15 million that did not indicate a religious preference.
These numbers to me do not seem to bode a certain Islamic future. Though they are large and probably growing they do not seem controlling. The numbers are certainly large enough to warrant several Muslim MP's. Is this the case? I think I remember hearing of a Muslim member in the House of Lords but I could find no site giving religion of MP's in The Commons. In the US the largest enclave of Muslim is in Michigan where based on population there should be several in the lower U.S. House. Yet I don't think this is the case.
Lightening
June 17, 2003 - 09:14 am
The Government chooses the Archbishops of the Anglican Church....Many Anglican Churches are closing!!! Even the present Archbishop of Canterbury says it is wrong for Government to choose....Disestablishment is inevitable....come and talk to other Anglicans over here! Numbers don't mean much!!! The Midlands and the Black Country are very highly populated with Pakistani immigrants. There are no-go areas....Derek Prince a mighty Evangelist does foretell an Islamic Country here...The Central Mosque has a map inside.....the Mulla said that the area in green was Islamic and soon all the world would be Islamic...and that the next generation would see an Islamic Britain!!! Go to Bradford....Government figures are just the same as saying there are W.M.Ds in Iraq...which there are not!.......I see more folk with dark skins and the veil or turban than with English origins. It doesn't matter but it does feel to me as if we are being swamped...To listen to the local Moslem radio late at night pre Sept 11th calling for a Holy War and recruiting young men from all over and hearing them phone in as I did...then telling a local town councillor and being laughed at.....THEN SEPTEMBER 11th....This country has problems figures or not I assure you....This is a cosmopolitan city but the majority of folk from Pakistan do not speak English and it is frighten ing for me to go anywhere these days..believe me..We have wonderful folk from many nations here but in one thing I agree with Mr. Blair (one thing only)newcomers must now learn the language if they want to stay. At the hospital it is such a shame to see older women covered an d not able to speak without an interpreter.....COME OVER TO THIS PART OF ENGLAND OR BRADFORD OR THE BLACK COUNTRY, and see. The channel Tunnel doesn't help..and we have upset our French neighbours enough already to expect help from them. I do still send Best Wishes but feel that some eyes are blinkered...I am not a little Englander but do believe in speaking as I find...My dearest friends are West Indians but we do speak the same language.Pakistani women in this country still live behind closed doors . My doctor who is from Uganda. A Ugandan Asian and a wonderful Roman Catholic man tells me that children are being born with severe deformities due to the intermarriage that still continues among Pakistani folk..first cousin to first cousin etc.,....and 15 people to one small house...He is trying to re-educate but language is a problem. The men still rule these women. I have a West Indian taxi driver...he said that the firm he works for do not speak to him but congregate and speak in Urdu...but as he said "it is a job". I ride in taxis and do not hear English spoken over the intercom..It is frightening!
Ann Alden
June 18, 2003 - 07:22 am
One of my questions of this family going back and seeming to do so quite easily may be answered by one of the other books that I have been perusing. It seems that Iran opened up a little when they elected a new(1997) president, Mohammad Khatami, who called for more cultual exchange between Iran and the United States. "Nothing should prevent dialogue and understanding between two nations, expecially between their scholars and thinkers," he said.(1998) When one of the authors tried to get a visa, she was told that she had to have a relative living in Iran or have a written invitation from an Iranian citizen to qualify for entry into the long closed borders. So, we have the Wards with, I assume, two citizenships in their pockets. Three of the boys were born in Iran. And, as Terry Ward, mentions, some of them held Irish citizenships also. And, then, the brother, Rich who lived in Saudi Arabia, made all the travel arrangements and probably knew just what precautions to take. No where does Ward mention if there was any difficulty in getting visas. Maybe for the sake of the this beautifully written tale, he decided to leave that part out.
Due to the problem with our ISP on Saturday, I think we could add a day or two to the next section of the book. I will have to go back in the posts to find out what I said to open that section as we are so far off the topic that I can't remember. :<))
That would be posts #66 and #67, if anyone is interested. :<)
Harold Arnold
June 18, 2003 - 11:27 am
It is definitely time to get back to our subject, the discussion of the book. Here are a few comments from the book concerning current Iran and its people that impressed me.
1. Avo. He was the Iranian assigned by the Travel Agency as required by Iran to accompany the American family in Iran. Such a required companion was referred to recently in our media covering Iraq as a "keeper."
Avo was an interesting character who had previously lived and worked in Canada, but had returned to Iran after failing to receive a desired promotion from his Canadian employer. Our Author describes Avo (loosely paraphrased here from several pages) as a 35-year-old bachelor with expressive eyes and a puzzled air about him continually vacillating between disbelief and shock, bold smugness and conspiratorial intrigue. Avo knew nothing of History and didn't seem to care. He spoke impeccable English.
Here is the Authors assessment of Avo's work ethics (again loosely quoted from the book), "When I got back to Tehran, I use to give it one hundred and ten percent, but they didn't care. Actually they wanted much less. Now I only give twenty percent, sometimes thirty." To me this seems a work attitude similar to that in the; late Soviet Union in the 1980's and the years leading to the final collapse though I grant other key ingredients leading to the Soviet collapse are not apparent or are not apparent at a dangerous level.
2. The Generation X Iranian described on p-88 who had grew up in Australia. He spoke English with an Australian accent wearing a St Louis thirty nine'rs (who are they?) basketball shirt, Levi's and air Jordan snickers. How very un-Iranian or so it would seem!
3. The Iranian School Girl on a school tour at the 100 Column Palace (p99) who asked the Author why he took pictures? The conversation continued to a point after which the Author's mother expressed regret that she had no daughters, only sons with the unexpected statement from the teenaged girl that she wanted only to have male children. "Why she was asked? Because a boy is free to go without this," she replied, touching her headdress.
Some might be suspicious that such a conversation would ever occur except the predicate formed by the Author's mother's expression of regret at having no daughters gives credence to the spontaneous response from the young girl who otherwise would never have made the admission. I think we have here another example of a deep-seated dissatisfaction with the strict rules governing current Iranian society.
4. And finally the story (p-104 at the end of Chapter 5) of the failure of the Ayatollah's order to destroy Achaemenian (pre-Islamic Persian) monument. This is an event that I missed if it ever was reported in our news. It seems that after the revolution the Ayatollah ordered a column of bulldozers to go the pre-Islamic Persian Historical site and plow the monuments into the ground. But as the column approached the site a crowd of angry villagers throwing stones turning them back, stopping it. Unlike the similar more recent destruction of the pre-Islamic, Buddhist statues in Afghanistan, miraculously the Iranian site was spared.
Hats
June 18, 2003 - 02:49 pm
Hi Ann,
It sounds like I might have time to catch up on the posts and my reading. The descriptions of the country are so vivid. Just reading about the spices in the market has my mouth puckering and watering.
"A searching hand caresses a root. Another rubs some seeds or flicks through the dried leaves. Pepper, cardamom, nutmeg, Parviz explains...His soft voice retraces the spices' long journey across land and sea before their auspicious arrival in Tarjrish.....
Ann Alden
June 18, 2003 - 04:37 pm
Along the Silk Road, right, Hats? I felt much the same way. When do we leave??
Ella Gibbons
June 18, 2003 - 08:14 pm
The Iranian school girl, HAROLD, further stated that (and I think this is an important point) – “Nothing is written in the Koran about wearing it” – when speaking of her headdress. Interesting isn’t it? So where did the custom come from?
There is one paragraph (p.98) that puzzles me also. Akbar states that in “eastern countries” the leader must be surrounded by mystery and no member of his family is ever seen in public. Not true, if Jordan is considered an “eastern country.” Heavens, the former Queen of Jordan has just written a book that will be discussed here in August and she and other female members of her family were seen often by the public.
What I found astounding was the fact that the University of Shiraz’s medical faculty lecture in English only!!! Well! Why just the medical students? And why English? Perplexing!
I loved the description of Iranian gardens, didn’t all of you? Or perhaps I should say the garden that was home to Terence Ward and his family while in Iran; must have been fabulous. And to find out that the word “paradise” is rooted in ancient Persia! Being an avid gardener I can appreciate that, although my garden is not walled, but it is peaceful and quite lovely I think and the time I spend there is rewarding.
Hello HATS! Before you and ANN decide to go to Iran you might want to read this week’s TIME magazine to see what is happening there. A revolt by the young people wanting more democracy and human rights is threatening the government of President Mohammed Khatami, whose attempts at reform have been stymied by religious leader Ayatullah Ali Khamenei, and lest you think this is a minor episode, the article further states that 60% of Iran’s 70 million people are under the age of 30 and are viewing videos and satellite television from around the world, particularly from America; they know what is going on and what their share of it.
Hats
June 19, 2003 - 04:34 am
Hi Ann and Ella,
I wanted to leave immediately with Ann on our journey. I changed my mind after thinking about what has been on the news this week. People are literally burning their bodies in protest. We watched that last night. At the moment, like other countries, Iran is in quite a bit of trouble.
I am watching the news trying to understand and piece it all together. My eyes have been glued to Iraq. Are Iran and Iraq very near each other in miles?
Ann Alden
June 19, 2003 - 05:54 am
Ella
From "Persian Mirrors"(my other book):"The Islamic Republic didn't invent the veil, of course. Even before the advent of Islam, the practice of veiling probably existed among the Zoroastrians. From the sixteeth century on, a kind of all-enveloping Islamic veil was worn, although it was not black and its style varied according to region. Eventurally, well-to-do women of the cities and the court---certainly not a majority of women--took up veiling and secluding themselves from public view. The black chador seen on the streets today probably made its entry in the late eighteenth century--among the upper classes.
In the countryside, women have always worn veils, usually lively prints that protect their heads from dust. They often wear scarves with veils over them, wrapping and gathering them at their waists to free up their arms and to make the garments less cumbersome. In fact, the consensus among modern and traditional, secular and religious women in Iran is that if women were given a choice, the majority would probably choose to cover their heads in public in some way."
A few other things mentioned by this writer are that in 1935, the Reza Shah issued an edict that declared the wearing of traditional dress(Western clothingfor both women and men) an offense punishable by a prison term. The army and police roamed through villages to enforce the laws, tearing chadors off women and handing out free Western-style suits to men. Reza Shah also banned men from wearing turbans. Mustaches were allowed but beards were forbidden, even for clerics. The king told all Iranian women to follow the example of his family's women and "to cast their veils, this symbol of injustice and shame, into the fires of oblivion." But not all the women saw it that way. To many, the veil was a source of protection, respect, and virtue. Also mentioned here was another book, "Daughter of Persia" by a daughter of a Qajar prince, where she recalls her mother's words:"He is trying to destroy religion. He doesn't fear God, this evil Shah--may God curse him for it!"
During the 1979 revolution, women could bo bareheaded in Iran, but within a month, Khomeini ordered all women to wear Islamic dress. At first the Iranian women resisted and led a march protesting the Ayatollah's decree. Men stood on the sides jeering them and throwing rocks and bottles at them. Eventually, after Khomeni backed down and changed his mind about the chador and the wearing of a head covering prevailed.
Ann Alden
June 19, 2003 - 06:04 am
Hats,
Iran and Iraq share a common border and that is how Iraq invaded Iran so easlily in the 90's? And continued the war for 8 years, killing many Shiites in the process. Another religious/political war! Will it ever stop???!!!! According to the Iranian representative interviewed on TV Sunday, the police will just wait out the furor of the students as they keep them surrounded. This has happened before.
One of the things that came to my mind when I read Ella's question about the veil and remembered reading the quote that I put up above, was that the covering of their clothes and veils maybe was only meant for protecting their persons from sand storms which from watching the Iraqi war on TV, I saw were quite common. And another thought that I had was---picture the huge hats, veils and dust covers that women wore over here when first exposed to automobiles. Remember"Meet Me In St Louis"?
Wearing colors is frowned upon by the city ladies as they consider it cheap and gaudy and showing one's poor knowledge of style. In the cities, the women prefer black or beige as its more stylish but subdued.
Hats
June 19, 2003 - 09:11 am
While reading Terrence Ward, I am coming across one of the same themes from the "Abraham" discussion. This is one of the quotes that made me think of Bruce Feiler's book.
"The Christian faithful have long celebrated their Judaic roots. Yet I can't help thinking that an unrecognized debt to Iran remains. The Shia mullahs, along with their fundamentalist Christian brothers, are more than happy to keep this quiet..."
This quote made me think that Mr. Ward is striving to make us think of the commonalities between these cultures or religions. I might be off here, but someone will help me.
The quote in the opening of chapter five made me think of the common elements too.
"There is no nation which so readily adopts foreign customs as the Persians." Herodutus
I am learning a lot about the wearing of veils.
Ann Alden
June 19, 2003 - 09:22 am
Hats, concerning your question above, I just put this quote in the Religion Related Books discussion but its something to ponder or cogitate:
Ramakrishna, the greatest Hindu saint of the 19th century, once said, "God has made different religions to suit different aspirations, times, and countries. All doctrines are only so many paths; but a path is by no means God Himself. Indeed, one can reach God if one follows any of the paths with wholehearted devotion. One may eat a cake with icing either straight or sidewise. It will taste sweet either way."
I think that Terry Ward is indeed wanting us to recognize the Persian contributions to Christianity and Judaism and he alludes that the two faiths keep these contributions quiet? I wonder why they would do that? An absolute truth problem?? My faith is better than yours?
Did you read the link above about the different faiths living side by side in Iran? Yes, 90% of the Iranians are Muslims(mostly Shiia) but there are other religions practiced in Iran and the people seem to live peacefully.
Harold Arnold
June 19, 2003 - 11:00 am
Ella you are right in mentioning the importance of the school girls response citing the absence of the rule requiring woman wear veils rule in the Koran. She was quick to cite the ultimate authority. Yet I fear the defense would not sound as decisive in the ears of Islamic Judges interpreting Islamic law.
Thank you also for mentioning the comment of Akbar one of the three Iranians accompanying the family in Iran. I think your conclusion that Jordan and its royal family in the view of the ayatollahs are not eastern in the Islamic sense is quite correct. They like the late Shah of Iran are much too western to qualify.
I am not surprised that Akbar made the statement you mentioned because I think it was meant as a comment of the reality of the situation. In other words it was meant to say in the eyes of the masses of the people the leader and his family must be veiled in awe-inspiring mystery. I don’t think it was Akbar's personal view since otherwise he was the most educated of the three Iranians with the party. He had graduated from a collage in California (UCLA or Berkley?), and as a historian was hired by the family specifically as their guide and interpreter of the historic sites.
The third Iranian with the family was Nasrollah, their driver. Apparently he had a liking for bootleg music tapes and was playing one on the SUV player that almost resulted in a serious wreck with a passing bus. A jurisdictional argument between Avo and Nasrollah was also a contributory factor to this almost tragedy. The Author does not give us much detail about Nasrollah's background but apparently he was the only one of the three who had not previously lived and studied or worked in the West. Yet he too exhibited a liberal streak as he was the source of the story I previously mentioned of the local mob stopping the ayatollah's bulldozer sent to destroy the Persian historical site. The author tells us Nasrollah PROUDLY told of the stone-throwing locals saving the ancient site.
Lightening
June 20, 2003 - 06:52 am
Ann I had often wondered why the silence re what we owe to Persia.....and I think sometimes it is fear...I have shared a little of my feelings towards Persia with a few people and they immediately start quoting verses at me and warning...Didn't Jesus say "turn neither to the right nor to the left".....some of us take detours and are enriched by them...I know that my own Christian faith has been enriched throught the reading of Hassan and from the postings....At the little Post office yesterday I talked to Khalida Mogul the postmistress and said that I thought I would have supported Ali and would then have been a Shia. She is a Sunni (African Asian)and very Indian looking....Wow...but she was so pleased that I was learning about their prophet Mohammed....I do not see him in the same way as some of the Christians I know do...I feel he was a very good man and a prophet...I dare not express what some say about him and pray that as the Koran says....all shall be explained in Paradise...I have in my hand a small Christian Prayer Book with Zoroaster's prayer for Forgiveness written 1,5oo years before Christ. "It is confusing that there are so many different religions in the world, but we can learn helpful things from many of them and from people who have beliefs different from our own".Says the Editor of the book.Surely this says it all.We have so much riches to share but "fear" gets in the way..."Love one" another is the key.I am going over again in a minute with her "Bookmark" for her son .She can't use a computer but they have one at home. We share much together, and always have a cuddle...
Persian
June 20, 2003 - 08:14 am
I just received the new Kazi Publications Catalogue (www.kazi.org), which offers a wonderful array of books about Islam, interfaith dialogue with Christians, gender issues, Muslims' views about the Biblical prophets the Virgin Mary, etc.
In the Gender Studies section (see link below), there are some great selections which, just by their titles, are intriguing.
For example, as a complement to the book we are now discussing (which is also listed in the catalogue), one might select
MY FLOWER: THE SPIRIT OF PERSIA: THREE GENERATIONS OF QAJAR WOMEN POETS;
GRANDMOTHER'S SECRETS: THE ANCIENT RITUALS AND HEALING POWER OF BELLY DANCING (no kidding, that's the title!);
SUFI WOMEN OF AMERICA: ANGELS IN THE MAKING.
As a follow-up to our earlier discussion, there is also a title which I found very interesting:
DAUGHTERS OF ABRAHAM: FEMINIST THOUGHT IN JUDAISM, CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM.
And of course, the publication from a few years ago DAUGHTERS OF ANOTHER PATH: EXPERIENCES OF AMERICAN WOMEN CHOOSING ISLAM (written by the Christian mother and her Muslim convert daughter).
But the catalogue itself is like a wonderful invitation into "another world" - quite different from the hectic one we experience daily.
http://www.kazi.org/default.php?cPath=11&osCsid=6f0ea950cad12ecd2be7453656433816
Ann Alden
June 20, 2003 - 11:55 am
I just bought book titled, "Neither East Nor West" by another woman reporter who lived in Iran as a child for a brief three years. Its not caught my interest as "Hassan" and "Persian Mirrors" has. She did write the book for use as a travelougue but I want to use "Hassan" for Hats and my travelogue. What say you, Hats?
Your friend at the PO sounds like a delight and very open too. You are so lucky to have her around. I keep looking in downtown Gahanna but so far, only in the very well to do areas, do I see anyone who might come from another country. I do have some Russian acquaintances here but they are so busy working in hospital labs that their social time is limited. They are both women doctors but unable to afford schooling that we require for them. One is slightly embittered but the other seems very happy just to be here. Her husband is finishing up his required schooling and will soon be practicing. Maybe after she raises her two boys past high school, she can get her education updated.
Ann Alden
June 20, 2003 - 12:04 pm
Persian, I read your list and found that one was missing which I think might be fun to read.
Reading Lolita in Tehran
Hats
June 20, 2003 - 12:44 pm
Ann, I am very excited about our travelogue. In Hassan, I read about a double rainbow. Did he literally mean a "double rainbow." I have seen single rainbow, never heard of a double one. That must be a beautiful sight.
Hats
June 20, 2003 - 12:45 pm
Ann and Persian, I have seen a review of LOLITA IN TEHRAN. I would love to read that book. It sounds very interesting.
Persian
June 20, 2003 - 12:49 pm
ANN - you might suggest to your Russian friend that she (or you) check with a large university near by to see if they have a medical school. If so, many of the American medical schools have offered reduced or tuition free medical training to non-American medical personnel. Depending upon on her training and speciality in Russia, she might be pleasantly surprised at the additional/advanced medical training that is available to her in the USA.
Was it someone in this discussion who inquired earlier why medical classes in Iran were taught in English? That has been the case for many years (and also within other highly technical fields like engineering) and for logical reasons: modern medical terminology is complex at best, constantly expanding with new results and procedures which the Farsi language, like Arabic, is not always able to interpret easily. Explanations of diseases and their treatments need to be understood on an international scope, not just within a country.
A secondary, but equally important reason, is that if Persian medical personnel seek advanced training in the West, they will already be familiar with English and have (hopefully) developed a substantial medical vocabulary to work successfully with their Western colleagues.
Diane Church
June 20, 2003 - 05:20 pm
Hats, just a little aside for you. When I lived in Hawaii for a year I was so surprised to see double rainbows on a fairly regular basis. As I recall (this was back in the mid-50's) the second part of the double was not quite as vivid as the main one but as a whole, pretty spectacular. Also, when we lived on the Central Coast of California we had a few doubles. I wonder if this is a more western type phenomenon?
Hats
June 21, 2003 - 03:02 am
Diane, thanks for writing about the double rainbows. That is so interesting. The first one is the prettiest.
Lightening
June 21, 2003 - 02:49 pm
I am still reading......slowly....just lurking! I am absorbing the atmosphere and the detours and studying Ann and Mahlias postings.
GingerWright
June 21, 2003 - 04:16 pm
Lightening
We will all be over Joyed when you post your thoughts. I will be in Wing just waiting.
Lightening
June 22, 2003 - 10:15 am
I had a comment to make the other day but I was way behind everyone in my reading...however I would like to mention this....I really had a laugh at the "sleepy old man" in the Abarqu mosque.......and I thought of St. Martin's in the Bull Ring Church in this city centre...where tramps and homeless men (usually men) are often curled up asleep on the seats.....This is perhaps one of the few churches continually open in Birmingham....Where else can they come...There are a number of services during the day and it is continually manned.Until recently all churches in England were open continually and you couldgo anywhere and walk in and look around without seeing a soul..Too many thefts and vandalism etc., has meant shut doors. I loved the way Ward remembered the ball games of his youth and other games he's played around the world....Yes it is an international language.....Today my son has picked up 10...Yes 10...balls from our back garden, from the children next door....There are so many of them that I seemed to be always sending balls back over the fence and it has become a game in itself with them....but in the interest of international relations (as some of you know my neighbours are from Pakistan ) I hold my peace.....It is good to see them when they play properly...especially when they deck out in "whites" and play cricket with all the cousins...
I am going to re read the section on "Moharram" It is so sad and I realise Hussein's death is a meaningful part of Islamic culture.Something like the "Passion Play" at Oberammagau, when Jesus' Crucifixion is portrayed quite meaningfully.
I had to search Amazon site for a book my son needs and came across a couple of other interesting ones re Persia...."Honeymoon in Purdah...an Iranian Journey" by Alison Wearing...
"Mother without a Mask"... A Westerners Story of her Arab Family. by Patricia Holton and Andrea Jones.
"Daughter of Persia" ....A woman's journey from her father's harem through the Islamic Revolution. by Satterah Farman Farmaian and Dona Munker.
GingerWright
June 22, 2003 - 12:14 pm
What a lovely informational posts. Ah, Yes it shows that you are a true lover of books, what a joy to meet you. I am so glad that you have found us as you fit right in.
The Hillbilly
Persian
June 22, 2003 - 12:49 pm
JEN - glad to see your mention of Farman Farmaian's book DAUGHTER OF PERSIA. The author's family is one of the most distinguished among the Qayjars. She studied in California and returned to Iran with a degree in Social Work in an effort to relieve the suffering of the residents of Southern Tehran (opposite side of the city and the socio-economic sector from that described in the book under discussion here)and throughout the country. Sattaray did field work in Iraq among the tribes and used this experience to work with the tribal societies in southern Iran. She was arrested and persecuted prior to and in the early stages of the Revolution and forced to flee Iran for the USA once again. Excellent book about a high-born woman's courage and tenacity in wanting to help her countrymen and women.
Ann Alden
June 23, 2003 - 06:46 am
In reading all these interesting posts and links, I find that we are awash in title suggestions for Iran and Islam, but mostly for Iran and its women. Did anyone notice that?
Persian, thanks for that great explanation of why the medical schools teach in English. Sometimes, I am amazed that so many people thruout the world can speak English. I wonder if it has or will become the international language someday. Maybe it already has. By the way, it was Ella who asked about the English language in the Iranian schools.
I will be asking my Russian friend if she has checked into OSU giving her some monitary help with her medical education. Thanks for that tip. I do think that she might already be aware of these opportunities but has decided to help her husband further his medical education while she supports the family. Seems to be the way of women, doesn't it?
In the book, I was surprised to realize that not only were religious wars occurring in the ME having to do with the faith of Islam but also, on top of that were huge political wars between the Arabs and the Muslim population. Where does one begin and one end?
I am also quite taken with the poetry of Hafez especially the little example on Pg 117 where he starts out with "Do not judge us, you who boast your purity--No one will indict you for the faults of others." I like that advice. I am also impressed by the Iranian habit of memorizing his poetry and honoring Hafez. Almost as if he were a spiritual being to them. The touching of his sarcaphogus and murmuring of the his poetry, like prayers. And the way that they use Hafez's Divan sort of as an advice column or an oracle book, to give them directions or warnings for their lives.
Akbar is really keeping the Ward family aprised of the Iranian history but also on the politics of the country at this time,ie. his explanation of Khatami's leadership for the people towards "a gentler Islam, a softness of the inner heart, for God's blessing." This new president may have given the people some hope that things will not be so strict in Iran and that changes are going to happen that will make them feel less apprehensive. But even in the telling of this to the Wards, Terry looks around to see if anyoine was eavesdropping.
Jen, looks like ball playing is the ice breaker between all the nationalities around the world. Didn't you chuckle at Pat's(the father of Ward) politically correct way of handling the Iran-US soccer match when he was discussing it with the family who invited them to dinner.
Lightening
June 23, 2003 - 08:24 am
Ann....Pat would fit in well here...two old ladies from across the road were complaining about the "ball playing" today and my new neighbours....I told them how well we got on........Any vacancies in the diplomatic service......
I have asked my son to get me a copy of Hafez' poems; "The Gift"
. for my birthday.....They are beautiful.Now there is some bedtime reading (another file....see I am finding my way around). By the way, the Mercedes is very popular as a taxi among the Asian cab drivers around here ....Quite the 'elite'.Al-e Ahmad describing Western products as being more important than schools, mosque, hospital, or factory.to the Shah's regime...."an architecture with no roots in Iranian culture"...This is Westernisation and reminds me of England today.Superficiality is the word!.....(see the new file on National days...England has no culture of it's own any more, just an international language...guess you are right about that one)... I must pop off now and read a bit more of "Hassan"before Christopher comes in for his meal....Jenny.
Harold Arnold
June 23, 2003 - 11:06 am
In Chapter 8 the travel log continues with a visit to the Zoroastrian city of Yazd. In 1950 when I had the college course overview of the 11 living religions I found the Zoroastrians most interesting partially because it was even then by far the smallest of all the eleven and also because I remembered from high school world history that a form of Zoroastrianism, Mithraism,
(Click Here) had competed with Christianity during the first four centuries of the current era. Christianity of course won out in Europe leaving only the Zoroastrians in Iran and according to the link a small enclave of Mithraism in India. .
I no longer have the 1950 text book but I remember very clearly that at that time the total number of practicing Zoroastrians was placed at 100,000 all in Iran. Since beginning this reading I have wondered how this small group might have faired as it passed through the last half of the old century and its 1979 populist revolution. I suppose there was basis for my concern because I read in our book that the number is now down to a mere 10,000 people mostly older people. Though our author cites no systemic armed persecution of Zoroastrians, I suppose the popular mainstream surge has greatly reduced the chance for the religion to long continue its status as a living one. Apparently this trend was in progress even before the 1979 revolution as in the 1960's the Shah had abolished the unique tower burial practice or the group
Ann Alden
June 23, 2003 - 01:02 pm
Harold, doesn't this author mention something about Zoarastism being thought of as one of the 'black' art or cultism sects? Somewhere in my life, I remember people warning not to be interested in this old, out dated religion. As though it was something to fear. As if they couldn't trust anyone to study a religion different from the one that they were promoting.
From "Persian Mirrors" "Centuries before the birth of Christ, the prophet Zoroaster preached a message of monotheism, the central feature of which was a long battle between good and evil.(Good will ultimately win.) Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were influenced by the Zoroastrian belief in the devil and angels, heaven and hell, redumption, resurrection, and the last judgement." Seems like the stamping out of Zoroastrianiam by the purists in Iran, was similar to throwing out the baby with the bath water. They were saying that the festivities of Nowruz(Iranian New Year) were superstitious and anti-Islamic.
Ann Alden
June 23, 2003 - 01:29 pm
And, then, I found this site which was a surprise also. Its a short but to the point description of:
Mithraism and this one which has more depth:
Roman Mithras
Persian
June 23, 2003 - 01:45 pm
Here is another link with more details about Mithraism in Rome, Persia and India.
http://www.crystalinks.com/mithra.html
Harold Arnold
June 24, 2003 - 08:26 am
Thank Ann and Persian for the links on Mithraism. I don't want to over emphasis this thread but I thought Ann's short link did rather well point out the many similarities between that cult so popular in Rome and Christianity. This link is quite short putting it in the reading and interest range of most of us.
I noted that the longer link from Persian said only "some believe Mithraism was an offshoot of Zoroastrianism." That is the first time I have seen the link between the two considered so conditional. In any case for our book discussion we have probably already probed deeper into Mithraism than was necessary.
Back to Zoroastrianism I found another long web site
Click Here. Though this is much to long and technical for me and most of us here, It did offer and interesting explanation of why Cyrus was so generous with people of other religions coming under his jurisdiction after military conquest. This general tolerance of different religion including the Jews is attributed to the Zoroastrian emphasis on the good/evil dualism. This resulted in an individual's struggle for goodness and the avoidance of evil. For this reason the author of the site concludes Cyrus and other Persian Kings were able to respect the belief systems of others including the Jews liberated from conquered Babylon
Ann Alden
June 24, 2003 - 10:20 am
Harold, I did enjoy reading the first half of the page on Zoroasterism but gave up when my head and eyes started to hurt. Heh,heh,heh!! What I gleaned that we hadn't mentioned here is that some people consider Zarathustra more a philosopher than a prophet and he never claimed to be a prophet.
Anyway, back to the book, where are we???
Oh, we are in the house of the kind Iranians who invited the Wards to dinner, is that right? Can anyone imagine an American would offer such an invitation to a stranger from another country, who is just touring????ahhh, maybe, the tomb of the Unknown Soldier or Arlington Cemetery? Somehow, I don't think so although, maybe Persian would do it since she is so familiar with other countries and their traditions.
Persian
June 24, 2003 - 01:19 pm
Although I was born in California, I've lived in Michigan, Oregon, Texas, Maryland and New York, as well as abroad. My personal experiences throughout my life have been that Americans do indeed invite stranges into their homes. For example, I've been invited after church services, after parades on major holidays (4th of July, Veterans Day, Christmas and Easter), when my car broke down on the highway and I had to wait several hours for repairs.
Within the Persian and Middle Eastern cultures it is quite common and one does it from the "extended family" standpoint. For example, I've picked up women wearing hijab from the street who are waiting for buses and loaded down with packages and/or babies; a Muslim couple at the Metro station in Washington who was confused about which schedule to inquire about and a Muslim taxi driver who'd just blown a tire on his car. All came home with me for tea or juice and we helped as much as possible. When my husband is here, it is not at all unusual for him to come in the house, call loudly "KHANOM, this man needs refreshment and our help."
Ella Gibbons
June 24, 2003 - 06:16 pm
Someone, was it you, Jenny, mentioned Hafez’s poetry and I liked the lines quoted in the book so well:
I have learned so much from God
That I no longer call myself
A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,
A Buddhist, a Jew.
If only all religions could apply this philosophy, what a different world! But then, what would “IT” be called? Would it still be a religion? Could we just all call it “God’s World?” Would that solve any problems?
Jenny, what must have been your thoughts on your homeland as the conversation in the bar turned to England and its imperialism? (pgs.l27-131)
George Bernard Shaw once said “An Englishman does everything on principles; he fights you on patriotic principles; he robs you on business principles; he enslaves you on imperial principles.” And, of course, Shaw was an Englishman! Hahaha
It all belonged to the great British Empire at one time and WWII came along to end it. I loved the humor on Iranian television in the show “Uncle Napoleon.” Although the English might not approve.
And they certainly did not approve of Iran nationalizing their own oil; however, the powers that be, namely, the U.S.A., managed to stop that nonsense and the oil flowed again into the coffers of the world’s most powerful country and the Seven Sisters of the oil world. Does anyone know if the seven oil companies are still intact? I know Standard Oil, Shell, Texaco and Gulf still exist, but have never heard of Socal or Socony.
Has anyone read, or even heard of, the book by Kermit Roosevelt entitled “Countercoup: The Struggle for the Control of Iran?” That would be one to read for a discussion if it is not too technical.
Reading this:
”In Iran there has always been tension between farmer, city dweller and nomadic shepherd. It is an age-old rivalry. Over the centuries, waves of tribes from central Asia rode into the country, searching for grazing land.”
Well, well - our own wild, wild west and only the names are changed from Indians, settlers and ranchers.
My book is due back at the Library and I thought when I took it out that certainly it could be renewed. NOT SO! So, although I will continue reading the posts and commenting if I can, I must bid you all adieu and hope to meet you soon again!
Ella Gibbons
June 24, 2003 - 06:22 pm
I apologize, Ann, the above was in Chapter Seven, and I notice from your schedule posted in the heading that we are to be posting on Chapters 8-11 at this time.
I loved those pictures, particularly the picture of the tomb of King Darius II - awesome!!
Persian
June 24, 2003 - 07:15 pm
ELLA - intersting that you should mention Kermit Roosevelt. His book was THE chronicle on CIA operations in Iran for some years, yet its publishing history was confusing. When the original publishing date was publicized, the CIA went nuts. The date was delayed; there was strong insistence that parts of the book be edited "for better accuracy," and there was much chatter in the Washington intelligence community about what the book would do to "compromise" the region. I've used the book as a teaching tool, as a resource for discussions on early "infiltration" by CIA into Iran, and had two copies stolen while I was in Iran. (Fortunately, I had others at home!).
I have learned so much from God
That I no longer call myself
A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,
A Buddhist, a Jew. This is beautiful, isn't it. One of my colleagues at an area University uses this as an opening for his classes on Comparative Religion. He was born in Syria, been in the USA for many years and
has taught for more than 40 years. He still refers to himself as "a man of all religions."
Here's a link to SOCAL (Standard Oil of California)and its intelligence missions.
http://www.tlio.demon.co.uk/whatafel.htm
Ella Gibbons
June 25, 2003 - 07:04 am
Oh, interesting, Mahlia! Will try to get K. Rooselvelt's book at the library.
Thanks for the info - I should have known that about Socal.
Lightening
June 25, 2003 - 12:06 pm
Interesting that the death of Arghun was attributed to Mercury and sulphur......A horrific slow poisoning......On the B.B.C. news here today they stated that one of the vaccines given to babies contains too much Mercury......How long before we learn!
When I was young I saw photographs of the Shah of Persia and his queen Soraya and romanticised about them...I was sad when he was ordered to divorce her because she couldn't give him an heir....I was sad when he was overthrown. I did not understand as I do now about his extravagances....Mrs Ward seems to have enjoyed the lifestyle "it was such fun ...glorious parties".They were a lucky family..this was not idealism they did live the life.
I was interested also in the description of the "towers" above the "sun-baked roofs"....An amazing design....each home has its own air conditioning..."a large opening at the top traps hot wind..gusts channel down the shaft and bounce off a cool pond below.....changing the hot breeze into fresh air"...It's a hot here today...I can just imagine the lovely cooling atmosphere.
We have wind farms here now....and some folk have set up their own beside their homes to create a similar effect and cut out the need for generators...ECO warriors all!
Ecology too with the towers on the hill-tops where the dead bodies were laid out. This is great...This country has problems now..a shortage of burial grounds and cremation is being considered as damaging to the ozone layer.The local crematoriam staff told me that no new crematoria are being built in this country....soon alternatives must be found. I have a funeral plan...I won't cancel it...There is a hill near my childhood home called "Pimple Hill"....where the victims of plague were buried in a mass grave...I did have a smile at the thought of many dead lying on top of the towers...."One at a time please".....The idea of vultures eating the flesh didn't worry me....Worms will eat mine and they do it more slowly!.....No I'm not feeling morbid, just amused.We say "all things come from God and to God they return"....for Him to recycle.In 1965 the Shah changed things and demanded a cemetary be built nearby........Ominous...sounding his own death knell!
Only a few thoughts.daughter and new baby here tomorrow,but I am reading not as fast as you all but hopefully... absorbing ...Jenny.
Ella Gibbons
June 25, 2003 - 02:11 pm
Jenny - when you said this - " We have wind farms here now....and some folk have set up their own beside their homes to create a similar effect and cut out the need for generators..."
what is it folks are setting up? And why do people there need generators - and what is a wind farm?
I love your thought that God recycles us! Hahahahaaaaaa True!
Lightening
June 25, 2003 - 03:36 pm
A recent t.v. documentary showed people living in some out of the way areas of unspoilt beauty...There is no electricity so large metal mills are set up strategically to catch the wind , which powers a unique system of heating and lighting..If I recall rightly it was in a high part of Scotland.
The programme also showed solar power......very expensive homes with opaque sloping roofs to catch the light..and to conserve it as a souce of power, for use in that particular home during Winter ...It is the only source of power in these homes and the documentary stated that this was the future...completely ecological. I am not a scientist so I cannot describe very well how it works except that it was a v ery interesting documentary.
Harold Arnold
June 25, 2003 - 04:35 pm
What did you think of the Yazd Bazaar? It sounds to me, very much the Iranian and pre industrial equivalent of our Shopping malls. Granted there are many difference particularlly the absence of the three or four so called anchor stores, ie, the giant department stores whose presence dominates the key positions in the US Mall compound. Also goldsmith shops would be unlikely tenants in our malls. Yet the presence of many independent merchants selling a wide variety of goods seems common in both examples.
And the Wards meet another interesting Iranian, the schoolteacher, Mr Jamshid who invites the Wards to his house and ends up taking them to a curious Iranian Martial Arts demonstration. Mr Jamshid seemed to know all the details or the Bazaar and even possessed a detailed map of the layout.
The tone and writing style of the written description of the Martial Arts event reminded me of the description by Rudyard Kipling of a visit by him to an 1870's San Francisco Chinatown Opium den
Click Here For Kiplin's American Notes.
Mrs Ward, The author's mother must have stuck out sore thumb like as the only woman present. Yet it didn't seem to bother her and for that matter her presence didn't seem to bother the all male crowd of Iranians who even cheered when the American party was introduced on the PA audio system. How many of you ladies would have been so keen on attending this all male event in such a strange and foreign town as Yazd?
Persian
June 25, 2003 - 04:51 pm
Here's an interesting link for Varzesh-E-Baustani (Persian Martial Arts), which is highly respected in Iran and followed keenly by contemporary admirers.
http://www.iranonline.com/magazine/issue3/varzesh/
Ann Alden
June 26, 2003 - 03:42 am
So, in chapter 8, the author takes us from the hot dry desert to a local show of strength. And in between,
they lose their guide, Akbar and almost Avo, their assigned "spy" from the travel agency. I am still wondering
why they have two of these so called guides. Terry tells Akbar about Hassan and the guide says that if they
don't find Hassan, they will find many little Hassan's along the way.
We learn the purpose of the minerets for cooling the air in the homes of the villagers. Clever idea, trapping
the hot air and spriraling it down and over cool water, but certainly not AC.
And, we find that the Zoroastrians are very eco conscious. They don't believe in burying or cremating their
dead but take them to the top of the towers and leave their bodies for the birds to clean, then dump the bones
in a small pit at the center of the towers. When the Shah was in power, he ordered the towers of Yazd closed
and a cemetery built.
The Wards visit the Zoroastrian fire temple where the flame has burned for 1400 years, kept by the temple's
priest who worries about the upcoming generation who are trying to leave this place for a more modern scene.
He wonders who will keep the fires if the young leave. Terry meets a small family from London who are in Yazd
to visit their Zoroastrian roots.
One of the points mentioned about Yazd and its bazaar. is the lack of beggers that were prolific in the Shah's
day. The family is invited to a man's home where he shows them an architectural drawing that he has made of
the beautiful and oh, so clean bazaar for the city. Compares the winding streets with its little shops with a
piece of music. The man, Mr Yamshid, then invites them to "zoor knaneh" which is what???
I read all this and still am not sure what this traditional show of strength is accomplishing. I guess its their
equivalent of our gymnastics and dance recitals. The description of the music sounds fascinating. A sort of jamming jazz concert. And from these traditional programs came their national wrestling champ, Takhti, who was murdered by the Shah's secret police for being a leader in the National Front Party of Mossadigh, the Shah's rival. Intrigue and mayhem once
again remind us of where this is all taking place.
Persian
June 26, 2003 - 12:06 pm
ANN - The man, Mr Yamshid, then invites them to "zoor knaneh" which is what???
If you'll click on the link in my post above, the second paragraph of the article will explain Zoor Khaneh.
Perhaps thinking of the Persian martial arts in the same context as the Summo wrestlers of Japan - a national treatsure for many centuries - will help to understand this form of athletics, which combines with traditional music, chants and ritually determined, dramatic presentation. It is also quite similar to some of the Native American rituals (especially among the Northern Plains tribes)and the Mongols of the Far Eastern Mongolian steppes.
Harold Arnold
June 26, 2003 - 02:52 pm
Persian I'm sure you are not surprised at the cultural similarities between the diverse ethnic groups noted in your post #128. They might easily all have come out of the same mold somewhere in Asia. Another culture that probably sprang from the same roots was the Polynesians in the Pacific. The Thor Heyerdahl theory not withstanding, the better view is that the Polynesians too came from Asia. While I do not recall a custom that would suggest similarity to the Zoor Khaneh, that does not mean they did not have one.
I think I knew the Author's mother, or at any rate I had an Irish lady friend who also might decide to make an impromptu visit to the Mother of the President of a foreign country she was visiting. Today I still recall my friend hearing that a docents meeting was about begin at a prestigious Houston art museum we were visiting, decided she would attend and did. And worst she dragged me with her. I expected to get thrown out, as I know the last thing museums want at their internal meeting are strangers. Yet it didn’t happen. I sat speechless through the hour lecture trying to appear inconspicuous without much success.
In the Ward case the president's mother was not home, but the Presidents sister received Mrs Ward and the two had an interesting conversation. I keep thinking of a visitor to Houston, or Kennebunkport Maine (depending on the season) deciding that she would make a drop-in call on Mrs. Barbara Bush. Lots of luck, but I fear the visitor would not get to the Front door. There would I think have been a better chance in 1993 in Hope Arkansas, or in 1977 in Plaines Georgia when the then current "first mothers" were living and active in those towns.
Harold Arnold
June 26, 2003 - 08:32 pm
Ann in message #127 commented:
So, in chapter 8, the author takes us from the hot dry desert to a local show of strength. And in between, they lose their guide, Akbar and almost Avo, their assigned "spy" from the travel agency. I am still wondering why they have two of these so called guides.
Ann as I understand the roles of A kbar and Avo, the former was hired by the family as an ancient Persian History specialist to interpret the ancient Persian sites. Avo was assigned as required by Iran to accompany American visitors while they were in Iran. I was surprised when in Chapter 8 Akbar left the party since the Wards seemed to relate with him better than Avo. I thought the author should have explained the rather sudden departure better but I theorized that it was because they had completed their visits to the Ancient Persian sites. I still think we should have had a word of explanation.
Avo's presence was required by Iranian travel regulations, and the travel agency for that reason assigned him to accompany the Wards. He does not seem to have been very effective as the Wards recognized by dubbing him "Inspector Clouseau" after the bungling French Detective in the Peter Sellers Pink Panther Movies. He does not seem to have been very effective in reporting on the Wards to Iranian intelligence authorities. Based on recent News it would appear his counter part in Saddam's Iran were more efficient.
Persian
June 27, 2003 - 07:41 am
ANN - When Americans (or other Westerners) travel in certain areas of the world, it is not unusual for them to be assigned an "official escort," who usually works for the host govt. In China, I was assigned a young man who was supposed to accompany me anywhere I went in public. I managed to lose him the first day in a fish market, when he was adjusting his sunglasses; the second day I lost him at a university when I entered through one door of a building, but exited through another. On the third day, we agreed that I would not tell anyone that he was not with me (and I paid the driver not to tell anyone either), so the fellow and his sunglasses stayed away from me for the remainder of my six months in country.
Ann Alden
June 27, 2003 - 01:27 pm
Jennifer
Those wind farms are here in the states, out in the West, mostly in California but the ECO folks are telling us that we are threatening the bird population because the birds fly right into them. Like a mass suicide. So we must find a different way to produce electricity. As to the crematoriums, I had no idea that they were causing a problem with the ozone layer. I just arranged my aunt's funeral(she hasn't died yet but I have to do this to get her on Medicaid) and I am having her cremated and shipped to the out of state church cemetery where she wants to be buried. Hope they don't close the crematoriums down before we get her buried!! At the age of 90, and still going strong, she could outlive us all!!
Persian, clever clever girl!! Glad you were able to lose your Chinese keeper. It does sound annoying to have someone hanging over you all day when you had planned a solitary and private tour.
Harold, I thought that the Perisan background was from the Russian Steppes through Asia. Not right?
Chapter nine takes us from a relatively calm discussion about what the family expected from Iran....The mother exclaims that its so calm when one of the brothers says its not what he expected. The quote from the President's sister is pretty well known. One of the things that she told the author of "Persian Mirrors" was that they had all been well educated and that they had always been very wealthy.
Strike up the band! The discovery of Hassan's MIL in Tudeshk finally leads them to Asfahan, where they will meet with Hassan and Fatimeh and their children!!! Yaaaaaaaaay!!This chapter, which I have read three times, always makes me tear up as I read about the staunchness of the Mother Ward in trekking through that little village looking for someone who might know Hassan's family from Tudeshk. I love this lady! She is so determined and sure that the Hassan is still somewhere in Iran. A momentous moment in the book and now 3 hours away is the beloved Hassan and his little family. What a thrill! The excitement builds!!
Ann Alden
June 27, 2003 - 01:28 pm
Here comes Chapter 10 and I am having two little girls for a sleepover tonight so will be a little late tomorrow. Read on, faithful posters!
Ann Alden
June 29, 2003 - 05:44 am
So, we get to visit with Hassan and his wonderful family. The delicious description of the food, with the aromas almost wafting off the page as I read, sounds so good but maybe a little spicy for me. The families seems to reblend with simplicity as if they had always been together. I don't think that I could sit on the floor to eat but that is the tradition. I would love to see the carpets that Fatimeh wove to save money for their home in Isfahan.
The other tradition is the host becoming a servant to his honored guests. That the women of Iran are allowed to go to University and that there are more women in Tehran's university speaks of more freedom than I was aware of.
The stories of the Iraq-Iran war are horrifying. I believe that the Iraqiis killed almost as many Iranians as Hitler killed Germans in the '30's and 40's. And, the story about Maryam's then fiance really enhanced my understanding of the war. Also, when Hassan spoke of his seeing of the war at the front with death all around, gassing of the troops. Horrible! Where were the Americans?? Still angry with the Iranians for taking our people hostage, probably.
In another book, the author says that the American Embassy where the hostages were held became a place like a sideshow at the circus. People planned to go and see and then stayed to eat and play. There was a quaisi midway, where you could buy food, souvenirs, etc. And, two blocks away, life for the Iraniis was status quo with people going to work, to school and shopping in the bazaar. Also, this same author mentions that Khomeni only held the hostages as long as they were of political advantage.
Terry's old friend offers her wonderful gift to him in remembrance of a bike riding lesson, his mother sits talking to Fatimeh while his father and Hassan compare gardens and their lives. Mrs Ward's wonderful letter to Presiden Khatami's sister ends Chapter 10.
Now we are at the Isfahan fountain in Chaper 11 while the Wards wait for Hassan's family once more to tour another great bazaar. They wait by the fountain which is supposed to be the largest in the world.
Here is a link to wonderful pictures of Isfahan. Pictures of Isfahan
Ann Alden
June 29, 2003 - 06:03 am
By the way, the Isfahan fountain is there to click on and see. These are such beautiful pictures and the art of the inside of the buildings is stunning. Since there is no identification information, I wonder if Persian can give us any names of the places in those photographs.
If you want a super tour of Iran and the other sites that Terry mentions before we got to Isfahan, scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the different links. So far, I have seen the tomb of Hafez(the beloved poet) plus many other sites that we have already read about. Shiraz is there and the Persepolis.
Persian
June 29, 2003 - 07:52 am
ANN - That the women of Iran are allowed to go to University and that there are more women in Tehran's university speaks of more freedom than I was aware of.
Persians have a long history of education for both genders and are especially proud that there are a majority of women in their colleges of medicine, enginering and law. Persian women take great pride in their education and instill the respect for education in their daughters at a very early age. The Western media has focused so much on the restrictions of women in countries like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan (where totally different forms of Islam are practiced) that Persian women are often overlooked. In the Iranian immigrant community in Southern California (between 400,000 and 600,000 according to recent census figures), there are an abundance of highly educated women. The Shahbanou Farah, widow of the late Shah, was an extremely strong advocate for womens' education, as was Sattareh Farman Farmian - earlier mentioned as the author of DAUGHTER OF PERSIA, a daughter of one of the last great Persian nobles, a recipient of an advanced degree from UCLA in Social Work and a strong advocate of education for girls and women through her Center for Social Services in Tehran.
Harold Arnold
June 29, 2003 - 08:27 am
I must confess the book has led me to an interest in Iranian cuisine. They seem to emphasize the use of fresh herbs as seasoning. The meat most mentioned not surprisingly is lamb. I suspect goat too though I cannot recall it mentioned specifically in the book. In the US Lamb does not seem very popular and in Texas it is almost never used. We never see it in the supermarkets butcher counters and 20 years ago I remember statistics showing Texas per capita consumption the lowest of the U.S. States. In Texas cabrito, young goat is a popular Tejano dish in Mexican restaurants and Hispanic homes..
Ann, I am sure the Iranian casualties in the Iran/Iraq war were very high. I do not recall reading a number given in the book. Was their number you mentioned, as being in excess of German casualties in WW II, in the book? That would make it maybe as high as several million. Obviously after just having a hundred of its diplomats held hostage for over 400 days the U.S. was in no mood to support Iran.
I think the great importance of this book and books like it are the Iranian people who we meet. Their apparent goals and aspirations universally don't seem too different from those of the people in the West. Though the bicycle girlfriend's gift and remembrance of the childhood friendship caused her husband to sulk in displeasure, the family reference to their President as Ayatollah Gorvachev is an emphatic indication of the popular outlook that resulted in the unexpected landslide election victories of reformist candidates
Persian
June 29, 2003 - 09:23 am
The Iranian people remember that during the Iran/Iraq war, the USA supported and provided armaments for Iraq; supported the late Shah to the point of ridiculousness; and through the CIA entrenchment (and it has been deep and over a period of decades)controlled their press and government.
The average Iranian also recalls that the American hostage crisis which so upset the West was in response to the radical Islamic elements responding to the vitriolic propaganda from Khomeini's camp, NOT from the overall Iranian community.
For decades, Persians have attended college and pursued advanced degrees in the USA. Thus, they are attuned to American-style culture, friendliness and democracy. The more rabid Islamists (who controlled the Iranian government during the Khomeini period and to some extent their presence is still felt today in the Majlis), do NOT represent the Persian population as a while. Persians highly resent and cannot understand why the Western press (especially in the USA) constantly confuse them, their country, government, religion, and culture with the Arab countries.
I've often been asked by Persians (in Iran and in the West) "If Americans can make a clear distinction between Chrsitian America and Christian France, why can't they understand that Persians and Arabs are quite different. Americans seem to readily understand that they are different from the French. What is so confusing about our difference from the Arabs? Why are we so often lumped together with Arabs and their behavior and their religion?" My only response - in somewhat of a casual attempt to calm the blood of the inquirer - is that "Americans don't understand the French very well either." It reminds me of the suspicion of Irish Catholics and Italians in earlier decades by Protestants in the USA.
Ann Alden
July 1, 2003 - 07:13 am
From my vantage point................in the 12th chapter we are told about the history of the Armenians who were brought over the northern border of Perisa by Shah Abbas became of their business acumen and they were given religious rights. Their success in establishing a network from the English Channel to the South China Sea with Isfahan at the center happened in less than 50 years.
Back to the wonderful hospitality of Hassan and his family which ends with a huge picnic basket filled once again the most delightful foods that the Wards are told to take with then on their continuing journey. The next morning before they leave, Fatimeh asks Terry to come see what she has in the basement. It turns into a visit to the past of the 60's as so many of her treasures are from his old home in Tehran, gifts from his family to theirs, souveniers of their life with Hassan.
The Wards reminese about an earlier picnic when they lived in Iran where they were frightened by some scary men that they believe are thugs. A shepherd and his flock surround them making the thugs burst out in laughter.
The next city on their journey is Qom which although gloomy and polluted holds the shrine of Masumeh, sister of Reza, the 8th imam. The author compares it to the Vatican with its heart of the Shia clergy and the center of the Islamic Republic.
We also are brought up to date about the running of the country by Islamic clergy(the Supreme Leader is appointed for life) with a president and parliament being elected by the people. The Supreme Leader has the final say on all matters.
The Wards try to get in to see the gold domed shrine of Masumah but are turned away.
The weary travelers drive on to Tehran and vist the Ayatollah Khomeni's tomb. I believe that there is link to a picture of the tomb and building up above.
Harold Arnold
July 1, 2003 - 08:00 am
Ann wrote in the preceding message a short two-sentence paragraph that describes a complete antithesis of a democratic government:
We also are brought up to date about the running of the country by Islamic clergy (the Supreme Leader is appointed for life) with a president and parliament being elected by the people. The Supreme Leader has the final say on all matters.
As I understand from an Internet source that I read during our "Abraham" discussion this provision is in the written constitution of the Republic. It equips the "Supreme Leader" chosen by the clergy with an absolute veto over any act of the Parliament, any action of the President, and even any court decision. This official as his title proclaims is indeed very much a "Supreme Leader."
I suspect, however, that there is one political consideration that even the Supreme Leader cannot entirely ignore- Public Opinion. We have seen an almost universal liberal reform attitude in all the Iranians we have met in this book. I suppose this is why the official has allowed the peoples choice in the recent Presidential and Parliamentary elections to take office and even effect some small measures of reform. Yet they retain their absolute veto power though one might wonder if they will ever be able to effectively exercise it
Ann Alden
July 1, 2003 - 11:00 am
Harold, although you have generously offered to keep this folder open while I am away, I would like to finish the book by July 3 but leave the folder open for a little while for comments. I hope this is okay with you.
I just finished listening, on the radio-on NPR----to a former Congresswoman plus author of three books about the Middle East, one of them titled, "The Iranians". (We do seem to have a wide array of books about Iran available to us, don't we?) One of her comments was that she felt exactly as you do in your summary about the government. She is hoping with that the public will continue to want regularly elected leaders and the for the clergy to go back to the mosque. It will take a major change in their constitution which at present isn't going to happen tomorrow.
I am finishing up my reading of the book and will say more tomorrow as the Wards finally made it back to their old home in Tehran.
Ann Alden
July 2, 2003 - 06:43 am
On entering Tehran, the Wards are amazed at the many changes. They don't recognize their Tehran of the 60's. Who of us does when returning to our hometowns many years later.
Racing north they search out their old street and home. After many attempts to find it, they come upon a huge construcion site and their old home is gone. Only the wall around it stands. They find an open gate and wander aimlessly around the destruction of the beautiful house and gardens finding one of the old pool statues in a shed at the far end of what used to be the garden. There they were, the two Hellenic lovers who once sat transfixed in our grotto staring deep into each other's eyes. Of course the impulse to take the statues back to the US is stifled by brother Chris and Father Ward but Mom vows to return for the statues.
We are at the end of Searching For Hassan..............The author brings us a few stories of his friends from the Middle
East such as his friend, Nezam, who is searching for the Garden of Paradise with some archeoligists from Iran.
They found something but are not sure that its the place.
Then he speaks of an Iranian lady, who, although raised in
California, has moved back to Iran to raise her children as she is sure that it is important to know your own
culture.
Next comes another flea market experience! This family are shop-a-holics! My gosh, I don't know if
after seeing maybe three of the bazaars that I would be up for more!! How about you?
Then a well known Iranian filmmaker, Majid Majidi, with great humility, says that he believes that God is inside each of us. The film maker is very popular
and has had two pictures nominated for Oscars. One being "The Color of Paradise". I wonder if we can rent
anything like this here in the states??? It might be interesting to view.
Terry questions his father about taking bribes and Pat Ward says, never! "The most important thing in life is to wake up each morning and be able to look yourself in the mirrow and know you're clean."
I have read another author's words about the Koran and its "one night stand provision". How
convenient for the men. If a woman is found to be doing this, she is stoned!!
Its time to leave Iran for the Ward
family. At the airport the find a large illuminated sign in baggage claim, "In Future Islam Will Destroy Satanic
Soverneignty of the West." There's a cheerful thought! But the Wards carry on and board the plane for home and
Terry is blinded by the sacred moment of dawn. I like this thought and wonder how many of us honor the rising of
the sun.
I think that the Wards and Hassan's family are bonded at the hip. I am sure that they will find ways to
see each other. Wouldn't it be great is Hassan's family could visit the states? Are they allowed out of Iran yet
without problems?
The author tells us that things are changing slowly in Iran with the election of President
Khatami's canndidates out in the provinces. There are three women governing in three towns south of Tehran.
Khatami embarks on the first state visit to the West by an Iranian president in twenty years??? Who was here in
the 80's???
In July of 1999, we have students protesting the shutdown of a pro-reform newspaper. Seven
months later a coalition of reformers aligned with Khatami won another election with 80% of the vote. Christiane
Amanpour is quoted in the Trib: "These elections have not been about overturning Islami law........People just want a
more livable life---that's what they voted for."
Two of the Ward sons do return to Iran and get a resounding
welcome from Hassan and his family. Fatimeh tells about visiting the site of the old house in Tehran. It breaks
her heart when she sees what it happening to the grounds----another hi-rise building is being constructed there.
The beautiful gardens and swimming pool where Terry and his brothers played and learned are scarfed from the
land. The wonderful memories of Hassan's stories told while sleeping outdoors under the stars will always be with
them.
Up above there is a link to the fair devoted to women. I am glad that there is a "flood of Persian culture"
where people in the arts are taking notice of the arts of Iran. Wouldn't you like to be at the concert where they
played "Blue as the Turquoise Night of Neyshabur" at the New York philharmonic???
And when Terry hopes for a
better Iran and wants to see and hear Hassan once more, his father counsels, " If you listen carefully, my son, you
will hear his heart beating on that far side of the world".
The final poem of the book says it
all.
Children of Adam are all members of the same body,Who, in creation, were
made of the same essence.
He who does not feel others' pain,
Cannot call himself a son of man.>
Ann Alden
July 2, 2003 - 05:29 pm
Hey there, where all are the people?? Have you all deserted me with this discussion???? Please come back and join us for the last day. You have been fabulous and all of you have made this such a wonderful and enjoyable month.
Diane Church
July 2, 2003 - 05:54 pm
Oh my, Ann. I just finished the book this morning! But I followed your commentary and other posts all along which only added to my enjoyment. I am so glad I read this book - I love the families and the love they share. The descriptions of Iran - its people, its geography, its fragrances, its colors, its moods - I never thought I would want to visit it but now I do. Remember Hassan's duck cooked in pomegranate sauce? And the poets and poetry! I find that I have another whole area of interests to pursue - but no more time to do so than before!
One complaint - I kept flipping back to the photos and wishing there were more. I just wanted to see Hassan's face, his current face, up close. Also Donna. What a sweet and gracious lady. As was Fatimeh.
What do you suppose the wives thought of this adventure? Were they OK with staying home?
This is another ones of those books that I hate to return to the library. It's MINE, it's MINE I want to cry as I place it on the return counter.
I'm truly sorry that so many things got in the way of reading this book together with everyone.
I'll end this with excerpt from Hafez's Divan which I found provocative: "I have learned so much from God That I no longer consider myself a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Jew..."
Neat, huh?
Thanks again, Ann. You really did a bang-up job.
Ann Alden
July 3, 2003 - 03:56 am
Well, you have certainly spoke to what I felt about the book. I am so glad that you liked it and also wanted more pictures. Who do you suppose picks the photos for a book??? Probably an editor. Thanks for letting us know that you enjoyed the book and the discussion.
Lightening
July 3, 2003 - 07:33 am
Ann...Thankyou and thanks to everyone...especially Mahlia who taught me lots...I may have been a "late comer to the feast"...but I took my fill and I do appreciate the effort Ann put into this.....I have learned much about the different factions of Islam and especially about Mohammed...which I needed to know. I was lead to understand that Islam was Mohammed and Mohammed was Islam....I humbly apologise to all good Moslems for past misunderstandings! I do admit however that my own sympathies now lie with the prophet's son-in-law and grandsons....Thank-you Mr. Ward and Hassan.........Just a quick note..Pears Cyclopaedia re "the Sacred Book of Islam....though presented tohim by the Angel Gabriel, may in the main be traced to Biblical and Rabbinical sources"........"children of Adam, all members of the same body"...Amen to that!
Ella Gibbons
July 3, 2003 - 08:34 am
ANN - thanks so much for bringing this book to our attention! And for being the Discussion Leader - it was a good book and I enjoyed the discussion up until I had to leave. My book could not be renewed and it is difficult to post when you do not have it in front of you.
Enjoyed everyone's thoughtful posts also and meeting Jenny, a new poster in our Seniornet Books.
WE hope to see you in the discussion of LEAP OF FAITH by Queen Noor starting August lst.
Harold Arnold
July 3, 2003 - 02:11 pm
Yes Ann thank you very much for leading us in this book discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I think it is particularly well adapted for summer beach reading because of its happy combination of interesting facts about the history and contemporary facts relative to an exotic foreign country and their interesting culture and people. Our introduction to Hassan, his family and countless other Iranians were of great value to me as explanation for the recent political developments coming from Iran. I lacked a beach where I could read it, but found my gazebo by the pond a suitable substitute.
I note in the last chapter that the travel guide Avo was in fact an Armenian Christian a member of the small ancient Christian group in Iran. This was quite a surprise to me as I had not contemplated that possibility. I am not sure, but I think this group has affiliation with the Roman Catholic organization rather than the Greek Orthodox. Does anyone know more about them?
Ann Alden
July 4, 2003 - 04:43 am
Thanks so much for being with us in this discussion. I have enjoyed reading the book and sharing it with all of you. Everyone has added so much to my understanding of Iran and Islam.
Like Jenny, my sympathys lie with Ali and his sons so that would make me a Shiia.
If you have enjoyed this little book about Iran, you might want to join in the discussion of "Leap of Faith" by Queen Noor of Jordan on August 1.
Harold, I think that the Armenian Christians history was in the book but you can probably look it up on the net.
HAPPY 4TH OF JULY EVERYONE!!!
Harold Arnold
July 4, 2003 - 08:06 pm
Click Here for a link on Avo's Armenian Christian Church. This document indicates this ancient Christian sect is quite alive and active with ecumenical relations with Orthodox Catholic, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Churches. It seems particularly close to the Roman Catholic through the Armenian Catholic Church a part of the Eastern Rite of the Roman Catholic Church
Persian
July 6, 2003 - 10:53 am
Here is a link to a particularly touching article about Iranian women in today's Washington Post. The author, an Iranian woman working at Johns Hopkins University in Washington DC, elicits comments from a former student in Iran, who dreams of what might have been and hoeps for the future.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10706-2003Jul4.html
Ann Alden
July 7, 2003 - 05:17 pm
Well, this discussion is about to close. I hope you all have enjoyed this little time that we've spent together. Its been grand having people who are interested in the Middle East, for any number of reasons, join us here. I hope we can speak with all of you somewhere else, in another book discussion and if you enjoy this kind of book try "Persian Mirrors" by Elaine Sciolino or "Leap of Faith" by Queen Noor. They are both winners and certainly help increase one's knowledge of the Middle East. Thanks to all of you---Harold, Diana Church, Lightening, Perisan, Ella, Hats. Its been a real pleasure leading this discussion. We will archive this tomorrow or Wednesday so if you need to look at what we all said just check in the Archives.
Ta ta!!
Ann Alden
July 7, 2003 - 05:21 pm
I had already read that article last month somewhere else. I am looking around for a cheap copy of "Reading Lolita in Tehran" as I find the writing that I have looked at to be quite easy to read plus the story is worthwhile. Thanks for the link!
Marjorie
July 7, 2003 - 07:18 pm
This discussion is being archived and is now Read Only.