Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Export

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!

"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

Volume Two ("The Life of Greece")
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "

THE SOURCES OF POLYTHEISM

"Religion divided the cities as much as it united them."

"By the conscription of the supernatural, man was tamed from a hunter into a citizen."

"The religious imagination of Greece produced a luxuriant mythology and a populous pantheon."

"Each of the gods had a story attached to him."

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.
Will Durant attacks in this volume the absorbing, perennially fascinating problem of Greek civilization. Dr. Durant tells the whole story of Hellas, from the days of Crete's vast Aegean empire to the extirpation of the last remnants of Greek liberty, crushed under the heel of an implacably forward-marching Rome. This is a preeminently vivid re-creation of Greek culture brought to the reader through the medium of a supple and vigorous prose.

Like a great drama, The Life of Greece finds a climax in fifth-century Athens, and Will Durant's picture of the city of Pericles is a masterpiece of synthesis, compressing into about two hundred pages the high spots and eternal significances of what many have considered the most fruitful epoch in history. The Life of Greece has taken its place as the most brilliant story of a magnificently endowed people whose career ended in tragedy and unwanted assimilation because they discovered a world view too late.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.
This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol II, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 3

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"The first step in training Spartan men was a ruthless eugenics. Not only must every child face the father's right to infanticide, but it must also be brought before a state council of inspectors. Any child that appeared defective was thrown from a cliff of Mt. Taygetus, to die on the jagged rocks below.

"A further elimination probably resulted from the Spartan habit of inuring their infants to discomfort and exposure. Men and women were warned to consider the health and character of those whom they thought of marrying -- even a king. Archidamus was fined for marrying a diminutive wife.

"Husbands were encouraged to lend their wives to exceptional men, so that fine children might be multiplied. Husbands disabled by age or illness were expected to invite young men to help them breed a vigorous family. Lycurgus, says Plutarch, ridiculed jealousy and sexual monopoly, and called it 'absurd that people should be so solicitous for their dogs and horses as to exert interest and pay money to procure fine breeding, and yet keep their wives shut up, to be made mothers only by themselves, who might be foolish, inform, or diseased.'

"In the general opinion of antiquity the Spartan males were stronger and handsomer, their women healthier and lovelier, than the Greeks."

A procedure unbelievable to our current morals -- yet it was acknowledged by the Ancients that Sparta's men were stronger and handsomer and their women healthier and lovelier. Are we creating generations of increasingly weaker citizens -- men and women whose stamina is such that other civilizations will eventually take us over?

Robby

I assume that everyone here has clicked onto the Subscribe button!

Weren't Eskimo men doing the same thing, lending their wives to foreign visitors? or in Hawaii? and some other places as part of good hospitality? They also believed this would produce more intelligent and capable children with new skills.

CLICK THUMBNAILS TO SEE LARGER PICTURES OF SPARTA

HISTORY OF SPARTA

Excellent photos, Mal! And when you look at the height of those mountains, you can realize how easy it was for Sparta to isolate itself.

Robby

Durant "In the general opinion of antiquity the Spartan males were stronger and handsomer, their women healthier and lovelier, than the Greeks."

In Michigan around the late 1800's through the 1930's, there were wives of lumber barons who wanted to improve the lot of the poor. The burning questions was "why are some people poor and how can we eliminate poverty?" They decided the solution was eugenics. I think their real question was "why aren't people more like us and how can we get rid of the ones who aren't like us?" They forcibly sterilized the poor and illiterate and anyone else who didn't meet their 'standards'. One very wealthy woman funded a special department at a prestigious college to study eugenics. This wasn't a local phenomenon but happened throughout the U.S. and other 'advanced' countries who still try to force birth control/eugenics on citizens and in poorer nations. But hey, anything to be stronger, handsomer, healthier, and lovelier according to the judgment of a few.

Marvelle

Eugenics has a very long ignorant history. Perhaps it's a sign of being civilized that we don't accept this 'science' anymore. But it's still being practised but in more subtle ways by aborting fetuses that aren't normal. While it's acceptable to say the child wouldn't live long anyway and why incur the expense, the desire to have blond, blue-eyed children might prevail. People from India are still aborting baby girls. Lord knows why. There will be too many men with not enough women to marry. This has already happened in China.

People with lower than average intelligence or people who were average but incorrectly diagnosed were still being sterilized until 1972 in my province. Even the premier of the province had his son sterilized because of this law. The new provincial government in 1973 wiped this law off the books as soon as it took office. Funny how, at the time, everyone agreed that sterilization was the right thing to do. We were sheep.

According to Durant --"Probably more of this result was due to training than to eugenic birth. Thucydides makes King Archidamaus say;--'There is little difference' (at birth presumably) 'between man and man, but the superiority lies with him who is reared in the severest school.' At the age of seven the Spartan boy was taken from his family and brought up by the state. He was enrolled in what was at once a military regiment and a scholastic class, under a paidonomos, or manager of boys. In each class the ablest and bravest boy was made captain. The rest were instructed to obey him, to submit to the punishments he might impose upon them, and to strive to match or better him in achievement and discipline.
"The aim was not, as at Athens, athletic form and skill, but martial courage and worth. Games were played in the nude, under the eyes of elders and lovers of either sex. The older men made it their concern to provoke quarrels among the boys, individually and in groups, so that vigor and fortitude might be tested and trained. Any moment of cowardice brought many days of disgrace.
"To bear pain, hardship, and misfortune silently was required of all. Every year, at the altar of Artemis Orchia, some chosen youths were scourged until the blood stained the stones.
"At twelve the boy was deprived of underclothing, and was allowed but one garment throughout the year. He did not bathe frequently, like the lads of Athens, for water and unguents made the body soft, while cold air and clean soil made it hard and resistant. Winter and summer he slept in the open, on a bed of rushes broken from the Eurotas' banks.
Until he was thirty he lived with his company in barracks, and knew none of the comforts of home."
How about the advantages of what is commonly known as the "school of hard knocks?" How about the training undergone by recruits in the United States Marines? What about that term "use it or lose it?" Were the Spartans on to something that we have either ignored or forgotten?
Robby

Marvelle - Movies and television send that message today. How often is a handicapped person, or someone not very handsome, or unshapely or elderly chosen for walk-in parts in a movie or a television show? Almost never. Because these people, according to the film industry, are invisible and perhaps should be hidden from view. does it mean that being handicapped, elderly, etc is not representative of society? Or does it mean that they should be excluded from being at the front line of a modern world?

Eloïse

Let's get back on topic, shall we. Has anyone been to the Metropolitcan Museum of Art, in what is laft of Manhattan. I have been there a number of times, and the Greeks and the Egyptians must haave had a love affairs going back two thousand years, BC. The Greeks conned the world into believing that the Pyrmaids were of great antiquity. Actually, dating anything in the Middle is extremely difficult, and they much more recent than the Western World can acknowledge. Curently, scientits are trying to callibrate tree rings at various sites, because all the pottery shards have been exported and imported and scattered and imitated, that is about the only reliable means of dating avilable. And of course, you know very well that there never has been mcuh wood in the MIddle EAst. ...

North Star: What is happening to India's birth rate as a result of the gender imbalance? Current births per minute are 48 and deaths per minute are 17. Population experts think the Indian Pop in 2050 will be more than the earth's total in 1850. The spread of HIV is taking a toll on Africa. The Palestinian population in the Gaza strip is expected to Quadruple by 2056. Afghan women now produce 6.8 children. By 2050 Europe will be diminished and the Soviet Bloc depopulated. We will have a new world.

Justin: Russia has vast lands that people could emigrate to. I didn't mean to imply that India's birth rate was diminishing. I wanted to point out the potential inbalance between the numbers of men and women. Of course I'm looking at the situation from a western point of view. How can you have .8 of a child. What's missing.

Tejas; The residents of the Greek world have been trading with Egypt for 5000 years. Trade began with the Cretans and is probably still in progress. Are the pyramids not ancient monuments dating from Antiquity?

North Star: I understand your message. I was just trying to carry it to the next level. You're right. Russia has vast lands available but three things are happening at the moment in Russia to shrink it's population. The country has a low fertility rate, life expectancies are dropping and there appears to be a desparate rush to emmigrate.These conditions are particularly true for the former Soviet Bloc countries.

Eloise: One of Earl Stanley Gardner's lawyer characters supported by Della Street successfully ran a tv series from a wheel chair.The name escapes me. No, it's Perry Mason. Then of course there is always our store of disabled Presidents. Though I must admit they all tried to hide their handicaps. Very disabled was JFK but he managed to appear an athlete with Vigah. I think in general you are right. Hollywood shys away from the disabled. Are these people invisible. I don't think so. Krauthammer is very visible in his wheel chair on Sunday mornings. Herbert Marshall with his singular arm proved to be a very successful actor. Of course Bob Dole with his mangled arm has been very prominant in a leader ship role. I guess it's pretty hard to generalize.

Perhaps these items do relate and I miss the point but I don't see the relationship between the population of India, Africa, and Afghanistan and the names of disabled political figures with Durant's comments in Posts #1 and #8 about the philosophies of Sparta as outlined in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

Robby

Louise, you are talking aboout "Ironside" aren't you? I did not know it was a character created by Erle Gardner.That actor was very convincing too.

And you are right about able people wanting disabled to be invisible. For many years there were no municipal pools in this touristic town and the hotels used to invite local people to take subscriptions for their pools. They always had a good excuse like "the subsc. list is closed, sorry," so as to refuse entrance to the less than perfect in body. Bubble

Page 81: the father's right to infanticide. Again I find myself reading while heaping coals on my inner fires of long resentment against the double standard which has prevailed through thousands upon thousands of years.

Here the Spartans allowed the men to take babies away from the women who had carried them with great anticipation and hope and given birth to them with great pain and throw them from cliffs to be smashed on rocks! Dreadful! Why is it always the men who are given the role of gods to decide what is to become of the fruit of women's wombs? Even today this goes on in many parts of this world, while right here in our Western civilization it is the men who want to refuse women the right to determine whether or no there is to be fruit in their very own wombs! Grrrrrrr!

Spelled backwards, that means nowhere, one of those Utopia(nowhere in Greek)plans.

Of course, the Pyramids are of great antiquity! There is a long list of Kings published during the Ptolimaic period in Cairo that has been taken as gospel truth for ages. Some obsucre scholar working out of the the New York City Public Library (at 42nd St. and Park Avenue) who established quite firmly that many of these Kings overlap. That is, one listed as succeeding was actually residing in another part of the Nile in the Persian period. Thus the Pyramids are not at all as old as the Greeks claimed.

Y'all have a good day!

John Forbes Nash, Jr.

Good to have you with us, John. You would have enjoyed being with us at the time we discussed Durant's book, "Our Oriental Heritage." Please stay with us and give us your thoughts regarding Ancient Greece. If you don't have the book, "The Life of Greece," the GREEN quotes in the Heading above will show you what we are discussing at the present time.

Robby

Robby: The progenital sequence from #1 and 8 is as follows: Infanticide to gender imbalance to birhrate variation to shrinking Soviet Bloc Population. Also from: Eugenics to invisibility of the handicapped to FDR and Ironsides. Y'all have a nice day.

John (Tejas): Welcome to the conversation. Glad to have you engaged. I hope to hear more from you. The New York Public Library (42nd and Fifth Ave) knows everything. OK, so the kings (pharaohs) overlap after Alexander. Some were co-regents such as Cleopatra and her brother. So what? What age did the Greeks assign to the pyramids and what age did the obscure scholar prescribe. The dating game is always fun especially in ancient artifacts and historical documents. Have a nice day. Yuh hear.

Sir, how kind of you to take time out from your work at Princeton to post in this forum. Can it really be you? I wonder. Perhaps it's someone who suffers from the same affliction which so disturbed your life for so many years. What was it? Paranoid schizophrenia? I hear you've recovered. How much hope that gives to a mother like me whose elder son has the same condition.

Level with us, Dr. Nash, and tell us if it's really you.

Mal

My Goodness, Sea Bubble, your story of the swimming pools and the hotel control system sounds much like the hotel thing in the Man in the Grey Flannel Suit. How interesting.

That is the title of a book, right, Justin? Can you give me the author because I would love to check someone else's experience. Thanks. Bubble

EDUCATION IN SPARTA

Durant continues:--"Books found few buyers in Sparta, and it was easy to keep up with publishers. Lycurgus, said Plutarch, wished children to learn his laws not by writing but by oral transmission and youthful practice under careful guidance and example. It was safer, he thought, to make men good by unconscious habituation than to rely upon theoretical persuasion. A proper education would be the best government. But such education would have to be moral rather than mental. Character was more important than intellect.
"The young Spartan was trained to sobriety, and some Helots were compelled to drink to excess in order that the youth might see how foolish drunkenness can be. He was taught, in preparation for war, to forge in the fields and find his own food, or starve. To steal in such cases was permissible, but to be detected was a crime punishable by flogging.
"If he behaved well, he was expected to listen carefully there so that he might become acquainted with the problems of the state, and learn the art of genial conversation. At the age of thirty, if he had survived with honor the hardships of youth, he was admitted to the full rights and responsibilities of a citizen, and sat down to dine with his elders."
Teaching through "careful guidance" and not out of a book. Role modeling. Moral over mental. And force some other people to get drunk so that you can see what the effect of alcohol might be on you. Steal but don't get caught. Meanwhile, have a genial conversation.
Robby

Sea Bubble: I don't remember the author. The book came out just after the close of WWll. A New York magazine writer was challenged to pose as a Jew and to experience the bias and prejudice of New England hotel operators. His experiences were then to be the subject of a magazine article which might then serve to correct an unpleasant pracice. It was in the techniques of profiling by the hotel operators that I thought there was similarity to your experience with hotel operators and swimming pools. I think it was made into a movie with Gregory Peck in the title role.

I am struggling to recall a segment of modern society in which the Spartan method was applied. Perhaps the Hitler youth movement and Hitler's efforts in eugenics comes closest. Are most modern societies more like the Athenian model than the Spartan Model?

Well I don't know if the young Aamerican males know anything about Spartans or Athenians but I just read that a great many 10 year-old boys are "into" using steriods in order to body-build..they don't want to work at it or be athletes or anything close to a weight lifter(or a warrior) but they want to "look the part" hence use a pill. Maybe the Spartans knew a better way re: how to build a model male athletic body than the males of today at that. fr

"The girl, though left to be brought up at home, was also subject to regulation by the state. She was to engage in vigorous games -- running, wrestling, throwing the quoit, casting the dart -- in order that she might become strong and healthy for easy and perfect manhood. She should go naked in public dances and processions, even in the presence of young men, so that she might be stimulated to to proper care of her body, and her defects might be discovered and removed. 'Nor was there anything shameful in the nakedness of the young women,' says the highly moral Plutarch. 'Modesty attended them, and all wantonness was excluded.'
"While they danced they sang songs of praise for those that had been brave in war, and heaped contumely upon those that had given way. Mental education was not wasted upon the Spartan girl."
Considering the extent of obesity in the Western World today, are we perhaps being too judgemental of the Spartan way of life?
Robby

*grinning*
Do you mean Robby that going naked would induce women to indulge less in food and sweets so as to remain slim? That is a thought!

There is a reflection going on about the way education is given here to the young children in primary school. It is discussed in the newspaper that our system here in Quebec favors girls more then boys.

It is a fact that Spartan education would make the boys more manly in their behavior then with our present way of educating them. For my own 11 year old son, acting like a warrior is a daily practice and I don't discourage him. It is most important that they learn to act like men.

I think boys should be separated from girls during their school years. Their attention on learning would be much better.

Françoise

Francoise, you say:--"For my own 11 year old son, acting like a warrior is a daily practice."

Would you explain that a bit more in detail, please?

Robby

The Spartan way of life was unnatural and so demanding and full of deprival that it must have been miserable. A degree of discipline and learning self-discipline are good things, but the Spartan way was extreme, and what good did it do? The males were taught to be fighters and competitors with other men. The women were conditioned to have good and strong bodies, but were taught nothing much else. As far as I can see, not much emphasis was put on "book-l'arnin' for males, either.

Segregation of the sexes is unnatural. The world is not segregated according to gender, is it?

It is a myth that young men and women who are schooled separately learn better and more than if they were not separated from each other. I spent four years at an all women's college, and will tell you that a huge amount of time was spent talking and thinking about men every day of the week. The picture of men in the minds of many of the young women was not realistic at all because they didn't have day by day association with them. There were women I knew at this college who studied and went to class Monday through Friday. Friday after class was over, a great many of them took off for weekends with their boyfriends at men's colleges or universities if they had money for busfare and trainfare. It's my opinion that it simply is not possible to be a well-adjusted person and live in a segregated environment.

Mal

The link below takes you to an article which is titled "Spartan Religion", but it seems to me to be more about festivals like the harvest festival than it is about religion.

MORE ABOUT SPARTA

Robby since Charles Alexandre was very young, he and his brother Mathieu (12yrs older), would do wrestling for hours together. That is the most common and normal behavior for boys. Both of my sons would enjoy finding a piece of wood or a long stick of any material and play an imaginary war with it. We have a collection of them in the house and it is still his favorite toy to play with. May be they were born this way, nevertheless, they have agreeable character and I watch their morals closely. By the way, he loves to read and play musical instruments too.

Françoise

ANCIENT SPARTA with pictures

SPARTAN CUISINE, CLOTHING, ENTERTAINMENT

"Nearly every lad had a lover among the older men. From this lover he expected further education, and in return he offered affection and obedience. Often this exchange grew into a passionate friendship that stimulated both youth and man to bravery in war.
"Young men were allowed considerable freedom before marriage, so that prostitution was rare, and hetairai here found no encouragement.
"In all of Lacedaemon we hear of only one temple to Aphrodite, and there the goddess was represented as veiled, armed with a sword, and bearing fetters on her feet, as if to symbolize the foolishness of marrying for love, the subordination of love to war, and the strict control of marriage by the state."

Robby

Looking for Aphrodite, I found this and they can be enlarged GREEK STATUES.

Eloïse

I was fortunate enough to see that statue of the Venus de Milo in the Louvre when I was in Paris after the war was over.

Robby

How did David by MichelAngelo got into the Greek statues?

I remember particularly the Victory of Samosthrace. I don't know why It made a stronger impression on my young mind than the Venus of Milo.

Click onto INTERGENERATIONAL MALE LOVE IN ANCIENT SPARTA for additional understanding of this topic.

Robby

"The state specified the best age of marriage as thirty for men and twenty for women. Celibacy in Sparta was a crime. Bachelors were excluded from the franchise, and from the sight of public processions in which young men and women danced in the nude. According to Plutarch the bachelors themselves were compelled to march in public, naked even in winter, singing a song to the effect that they were justly suffering this punishment for having disobeyed the laws.
"Persistent avoiders of marriage might be set upon at any time in the streets by groups of women, and be severly handled. Those who married and had no children were only less completely disgraced. It was understood that men who were not fathers were not entitled to the respect that the youth of Sparta religiously paid to their elders."
Robby

SPARTAN WOMEN

SPARTA, THE CONSERVATIVE ANCIENT GREECE

Justin #28 - a Gentlemen's Agreement

I concur, Mal. I attended all male schools prior to late high school. Women teachers were admired for their interesting qualities, especially in 8th and 9th grades but they were unapproachable. When I reached high school and found myself sitting next to a girl, we had no common history to share to help make us friends. She was wary of me. Her Papa probably told her "beware of boys, especially boys who stare". I thought she looked at me as one would a fly. I was uncertain about how to talk to her. What to say. Our first words were about radians and cosigns. That was sixty-five years ago. I think separation of the sexes in schools at an early age is a mistake. We must learn to understand each other as early in life as possible. No wonder books explaining the differences in communication styles between men and women are best sellers. Men and women don't understand each other to this day. No wonder divorce is so common. Women have a glass ceiling to penetrate because the system fosters "old boy's clubs" that exclude women. Let's stop segregation.

North Star: Yes, Thank you.

This relationship between men and boys was probably beneficial for both. We tend to think of pederasty as relationship in which boys are victims and maybe that's true today. I'm not sure. But it is clear to me that if the manners and knowledge of an older man are passed on to a youth, it is the youth who benefits. If sex is part of the equation it must have been mutually agreeable and recognized as only part of the relationship.

We make such a fuss today about priests who "molest" boys when it is certain that many boys are not only willing partners but may well be looking for the same support provided by Greek older men. Parentheticaly, it is not certain priests have the manners and knowledge of the world worthy to pass on. They have retreated from the world, in a sense, and are isolated by the world.

Robby, some interesting information on population control in your "male love in ancient Sparta" site. They say that it began with Minos in Crete to control over population of the island. It was he who encouraged men to take young boys as lovers, thus keeping the birth rate down.

By the time we get to Sparta, it has had the opposite effect. They had been reduced to allowing only married men to their yearly Gymnopaidial festival celebrated with dances and presentations of naked boys. They were fighting the decrease in population that their state was stricken with. Only married men were allowed as spectators, as a reward for their contribution to the population.

Even though bachelorhood was frowned on, there were still many who choose that route. I am sure the same choice was not afforded to any of the young girls, whether they were ready for motherhood or not.

The Spartans choice of population control exceeded their expectations, and eventually led to a stark decrease in population. All that was needed for the men to embrace this, was the set up of young boys taken from their parents at an early age, and put in a setting with older men in complete authority. The absence of women in this scheme only added to it's success, and their introduction at the age of 30, must have been a shock to most males. Most memories before six are fleeting, and they had spent most of their remembered life in the company of men only.

I realize this is ancient history, but I read a story that reminded me of this practice. A reporter enrolled in a Madrasa in Pakistan to study in the all male school, and write about his experience. He wrote a long article in the New York Times Magazine in July 2000 of his experience. The boys are completely cut off from all women during their stay. While talking to a group of older students, he was immediately asked for sex. He said, "they assumed that all American men were bi-sexual." He was never allowed to talk to the younger boys outside class, as they were kept under lock and key. The students ranged in age from 8 to 35, with 2,800 students in this one school.

As a young Jewish man, he was surprised at their open and aggressive approach to him regarding sex between males. Perhaps we aren't separated from ancient history, except by a slim thread.

His being Jewish was only relevant to the story because he had told them up front of his religion, and his need to understand Islam if he was to write about it. His fellow students told him they loved him, and wanted him to convert to Islam and come live at the Madrassa. He didn't of course, but their embrace of him was touching. The velvet hammer.

Good to hear from you again, Fifi. You bring much food for thought.

Robby

Durant continues about Sparta:--

"Marriages were usually arranged by the parents, without purchase. But after this agreement the bridegroom was expected to carry off the bride by force, and she was expected to resist. The word for marriage was harpadzein, to seize. If such arrangements left some adults still unmarried, several men might be pushed into a dark room with an equal number of girls, and be left to pick their life mates in the darkness. The Spartans thought that such choosing would not be blinder than love.

"It was usual for the bride to stay with her parents for a while. The bridegroom remained in his barracks, and visited his wife only clandestinely. Says Plutarch, 'In this relation they lived a long time, insomuch that they sometimes had children by their wives before even they saw their faces by daylight.' Wwhen they were ready for parentage, custom allowed them to set up a home.

"Love came after marriage rather than before, and marital affection appears to have been as strong in Sparta as in any other civilization. The Spartans boasted that there was no adultery among them, and they may have been right, for there was much freedom before marriage, and many husbands could be persuaded to share their wives, especially with brothers.

"Divorce was rare. The Spartan general Lysander was punished because he left his wife and wished to marry a prettier one."

Those of us who participated in Our Oriental Heritage will recognize certain Oriental customs and may again cause us to ask ourselves if Ancient Greece was Asian or European. And whether such customs are solely ancient or are any different from customs existing today in various part of the world.

Robby

The influence of the East is seen in the Greek sculptures. In the case of Aphrodite, "veiled, armed with a sword and bearing feathers on her feet..." is likely to mean that the Spartans idealise women who are chaste, who have the courage to take arms in times of war and have the capacity to bear the weight of it.

Françoise

The quote below comes from HERE
" Women could own property---and did in fact own more than a third of the land in Sparta---and they could dispose of it as they wished. Daughters inherited along with sons. Unfortunately, when we get down to the particulars there are some gaps in our knowledge. Attempts were made to get rid of the practice of needing a dowry to get married. It is possible that endeavors by fathers to get around the law have led to considerable confusion in our eyes as to what was a gift and what was a dowry. Daughters may have inherited half of what a son inherited; it is also possible that if you combine dowry with inheritance they ended up with a full share of the estate.

"Spartan women had a reputation for boldness and licentiousness that other Greeks found unseemly. Women’s tunics were worn in such a way as to give them a little more freedom of movement and the opportunity to reveal a little leg and thigh if they so desired. Spartan girls competed in athletics at the same time as the boys and may have done so in the nude before a mixed audience. Plutarch mentions nude rituals witnessed by young men. The end of the fourth and the beginning of the fifth centuries BCE saw a decline in the number of men relative to women. Several men might share a wife and regard the children as their own. The woman would clearly be the dominant member of any such family. An unmarried man might approach a friend and ask if he could 'borrow' his wife to produce a child for him. If the husband had all of the children he wanted and approved of the suitor he might agree. It is highly unlikely that the mature wife and mother lacked a strong voice in the arrangements, considering the power and status of adult women in everything else. Since marriage existed strictly for the procreation of children and not as an answer to emotional or social needs the arrangement would not have had the same meaning to them as it might to us.

" Some have suggested the practice began as a way of limiting the breakup of family estates at death---a serious problem in those societies where daughters inherit as well as sons. Others regard it as an appropriate response to a disproportionate number of men and women in a society where family life was not all that important anyway."

when I chose the man to be my husband I was also considering his genes since he was to father my children as well. am I strange?

Winsum: I think you are one smart cookie.

"Every Spartan male, by a characteristic ordinance of the constitution, was required from his thirtieth to his sixtieth year to eat his main meal daly in a public dining hall, where the food was simple in quality and slightly but deliberately inadequate in amount. In this way, says Plutarch, the legislator thought to harden them to the privations of war, and to keep them from the degeneration of peace.
"They 'should not spend their lives at home, laid on costly couches at splended tables, delivering themselves up to the hands of their tradesmen and cooks, to fatten them in corners like greedy brutes, and to ruin not their minds only but their very bodies, which, enfeebled by indulgence and excess, would stand in need of long sleep, warm bathing, freedom from work, and, in a word, of as much care and attendance as if they were continually sick.'
"To supply the food for this public meal each citizen was required to contribute to his dining club, periodically, stated quantities of corn and other provisions. If he failed in this, his citizenship was forfeited."
I wonder what those Spartans knew about calories that we of the "fast food" culture do not know. Imagine if all of us males spent the 30 years between age 30 and age 60 eating a bit less than what we want. I am curious as to the longevity of the male Spartans -- assuming they weren't killed in battle.

Robby

Of course they didn't have shots against flu, vaccine against epidemic diseases and what about hygiene practices?

But eating one meal a day and lots of fresh products surely kept them healthier. Greece is the country of olives and that is very nourrishing as well as good for you. Bubble

Bubble - You live on the Mediterranean, do people there have as much problems with weight as we do here? When I was in Spain last Spring for 6 weeks, the Spanish lady I lived with in Granada cooked the usual Spanish fare. I ate there three times a day. There were 5 eating together including myself. We ate breakfast at 9, lunch at 3 and dinner at 9. The food consisted of at least 3 fresh fruits a day, at least 10 vegetables, fish and white meat. Sweet desserts we had once only. Olive oil on and in everything, including toast. Even if I satisfied myself, I didn't gain an ounce.

I found the locals very slim. I never saw a fitness club. They walk to work, to stroll in the park in the evening and for groceries. I hardly ever saw an obese person. The Spaniard's longevity is the same as in Canada, men, 79 and women 82.

In Europe, apparently the Italians are the slimmest according to a recent study followed by the French.

Eloïse

Yes Eloise, the Spanish cuisine is very similar for ours "Sepharadim, (from Spanish origin,) with plenty of fruit and vegs with poultry more than red meat and of course the ubiquitous rice. Those coming from the Eastern countries like Germany, Austria and even Russia, tend to eat more potatoes and meat, heavy dishes in thick sauces and elaborate cakes.

I use plenty of olive oil and raw onions, a salad without it would not be tasty. Unfortunately, the youth has learn from US to eat junk food in between meals and of course you can find Pizza Hut and Mc Donald in every town. So the trend is changing. Bubble

BTW Eloise, did you go to the French discussion lately? I posted something you would enjoy I think...

I enjoyed it very much Bubble, that poem can't be described, much less translated. Thanks for posting it. Those who know French would enjoy it too, it is so subtle and delightful. Written by an Abbé.

Eloïse

Booker T Washington wrote a piece in the Atlantic Monthly in 1956, I think, about the "southern problem." He says that the southern white man is primarily fearful that blacks and whites will mix and the white will lose identity. There are other concerns of course but this one says Washington is upper most in the southern white psyche. It occurs to me that the Spartan was similarly fearful. He wanted no contamination from outsiders and for that reason made visitors unwelcome.

As we prepare to leave Sparta, Durant asks a question and then gives some answers of his own.

"What type of man, and what kind of civilization, did the Spartan Code produce? A luxury-loving Sybarite remarked of the Spartans that 'it was no commendable thing in them to be so ready to die in the wars, since by that they were freed from much hard labor and miserable living.' Health was one of the cardinal virtues in Sparta, and sickness was a crime. Plato's heart must have been gladdened to find a land so free from medicine and democracy.

"And here was courage. Only the Roman would equal the Spartan's record for fearlessness and victory. When the Spartans surrendered at Sphacteria, Greece could hardly believe it. It was unheard of that Spartans should not fight to the last man. Even their common soldiers, on many occasions, killed themselves rather than survive defeat.

"When the news of the Spartan diseaster at Leuctra -- so overwhelming that in effect it put an end to Sparta's history -- was brought to the ephors as they presided over the Gymnopedia games, the magistrates said nothing, but merely added, to the roster of the holy dead whom the games honored, the names of the newly slain.

"Self-control, moderation, equanimity in fortune and adversity -- qualities that the Athenians wrote about but seldom showed -- were taken for granted in every Spartan citizen."

What are your answers to Durant's question? Is our civilization too soft and would it be advantageous for some (if not all) of us to take on some of the Spartan qualities?

Robby

We've had this discussion before. There are some who believe the myth that hardship, deprivation and a certain amount of suffering and pain make people better than they would be otherwise. These people must not have had to go without very much in their lives, and/or they've spent their lifetimes painfree.

I'm not complaining because I've lived this way for a long, long time, but try living the way I do: There never is a day without pain for me, and hasn't been one in years and years. I have only enough money for basic necessities like a roof over my head, food and health insurance. I am alone 95% of the time. For me there are no trips to anywhere except to the supermarket. There are no vacations, no lunches or dinners out, no movies, no concerts, no money to buy books, CD's, haircuts, clothes and shoes. Money to buy Christmas presents? Are you kidding?

I discipline myself to work hard and meet deadlines for the three online electronic literary magazines I pubish for which I do research and build web pages, and the editing and writing I do. Access to the internet is a gift from someone who knows this little eMachine computer -- also a gift -- is the only outlet I have.

Am I a better, stronger person because of the Spartan way I live? My answer to this question is that I'd be a good deal more content if I didn't have to spend as much time thinking about how to get along. Try living this way for a week or two and see what you think about Spartan living, why don't you, before you tell me or anyone else that it builds backbone and strength.

I'm satisfied that the military live in a Spartan way. I don't think it should be inflicted on anyone else, including the poor.

Mal

You have said it all, Mal. Kudo's. I have the same sentiments.

I can only answer that question from personal experience. Life "in the colonies" was an easier life than anywhere else, with servants, easy earning and easy spending because there was not much else to do. Physical hardship has made me aware there was more to life than just material pleasures. I think I would have been a totally different person otherwise, probably shallower. It is hard to say of course.

In the end I think I gained from my own hardship because I was more ready for changes of station in life than otherwise, I knew how to make the efforts and perseverate even if it was difficult. Many of my peers, uprooted because of the war, became depressive and still have a hard time, after so many years, getting used to their new life in Europe or elsewhere. They live much in the past, with plenty of regrets.
Bubble

"Weary and fearful of the vulgarity and chaos of democracy, many Greek thinkers took refuge in an idolatry of Spartan order and law. They could afford to praise Sparta, since they did not have to live in it. They did not feel at close range the selfishness, coldness, and cruelty of the Spartan character. They could not see from the select gentlemen whom they met, or the heroes whom they commemorated from afar, that the Spartan code made vigor of body a graceless brutality because it killed nearly all capacity for the things of the mind. With the triumph of the Code, the arts that had flourished before its establishment died a sudden death. We hear of no more poets, sculptors, or builders in Sparta after 550.
"Only choral dance and music remained, for there Spartan discipline could shine, and the individual could be lost in the mass. Exxcluded from commerce with the world -- barred from travel -- ignorant of the science, the literature, and the philosophy of exuberantly growing Greece -- the Spartans became a nation of excellent hoplites, with the mentality of a lifelong infantryman.
"Greek travelers marveled at a life so simple and unadorned -- a franchise so jealously confined -- a conservatism so tenacious of every custom and superstitution -- a courage and discipline so exalted and limited -- so noble in character -- so base in purpose -- and so barren in result.
"While hardly a day's ride away, the Athenians were building, out of a thousand injustices and errors, a civilization broad in scope and yet intense in action, open to every new idea and eager for intercourse with the world -- tolerant, varied, complex, luxurious, innovating, skeptical, imaginative, poetical, turbulent, free.
"It was a contrast that would color and almost delineate Greek history."
Democracy. Seen by some as vulgar and chaotic. Seen by others as broad in scope and intense in action. And just what is the "mentality of a lifelong infantryman?" Are our career soldiers, in our democracies, "base in purpose?" Are these the people in whose hands we place our lives?

Robby

In the 1930's there was much talk about the value of a "core" military-a cadre. Unfortunately, the cadre we relied upon was too small for immediate response. We have since learned to enlarge our core military. It is these folks who live the Spartan life in this democracy. We have learned since the 1930's that a short burst of spartan living can transform a civilian population into a well oiled infantry power in a calculated time period. It is not necessary for the entire population to live a spartan existance for an entire life time in order to defend the country against foreign agression. We have found that a little sparta goes a long way.

One gets the impression from advances in military skill- smart bombs, laser directed fire control etc. that there is less need for the spartan viewpoint- "bring home your shield, son". However, in every war I have observed, WWll, Korea, VietNamn, Grenada, Dessert Storm, for the guy on the line, it was still necessary to bring home the shield.

Justin, I would like to undersand what you said, but I never heard the expression and what is meant by "bring home your shield, son" puzzles me. Could you elaborate please? Merci.

Durant (as shown in GREEN quotes above) moves on from Sparta to another civilization:--

"Corinth, on the isthmus, had an enviable position. It could lock the land door to or upon the Peloponnesus. It could serve and mulet the overland trade between northern and southern Greece. It had harbors ad shipping on both the Saronic and the Corinthian Gulf.

"Between these seas it built a lucrative Diolcus ('a slipping through') -- a wooden tramway along which ships were drawn on rollers over four miles of land. Its fortress was the impregnable Acrocorinthus, a mopuntain peak two thousand feet high, watered by its own inexhaustible spring. Strabo has described for us the stirring sight from the citadel, with the city spread out on two bright terraces below -- the open-air theater -- the great public baths -- the colonnaded market place -- the gleaming temples -- and the protective walls that reached to the port of Lechaeum on the northern gulf. At the very summit of the mount, as if to symbolize a major industry of the city, was a temple to Aphrodite.

"Even in Homer's day Corinth was famous for its wealth. After the Dorian conquest kings ruled it, then an aristocracy dominated by the family of the Bacchiadae.

"But here, too, as in Argos, Sicyon, Megara, Athens, Lesbos, Miletus, Sarnos, Sicily, and wherever Greek trade flourished, the business class, by revolution or intrigue, captured political power.

"This is the real meaning of the outbreak of 'tyrannies' or dictatorships in seventh-century Greece. About 655 Cypselus seized the government. Having promised Zeus the entire wealth of Corinth if he succeeded, he laid a ten per cent tax on all property each year, and gave the proceeds to the temple until, after a decade, he has fulfilled his vow, while leaving the city as rich as before.

"His popular and intelligent rule, through thirty years, laid the basis of Corinthian prosperity."

The New York City -- the Wall Street -- of ancient times?

Robby

Bubble - I understand "Bring home your shield, son, or on it" as, "Come back victorious, son, or dead, your body on your shield". Perhaps there is another meaning, I don't know.

Robby - ..."wherever Greek trade flourished, the business class, by revolution or intrigue, captured political power".

Or if we are thinking of now, "Wherever trade flourishes, the business class captures the political power." That is not so surporsing if we look at only one flourishing business. The Oil Industry influencing political power until the earth melts in the hot sun.

Eloïse

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS

Eloïse

Below is a link which will take you to an article about Ancient Corinth. Click the thumbnail pictures on the left hand side of the page to see larger pictures. There are other good links on this page.

ANCIENT CORINTH

This link takes you to a page of pictures of Corinth and other parts of Greece. Click the thumbnails to see larger pictures.

PICTURES OF ANCIENT GREECE

ARCHAEOLOGICAL MUSEUM OF ANCIENT CORINTH

Click onto this MAP OF ANCIENT GREECE to see how Durant has moved us gradually northward from Crete to Sparta to Argus and now to Corinth. Please note how Corinth is located next to the isthmus where the rollers carried the ships the four miles from one sea to another.

Robby

This link is for Bubble and anyone who is interested.

SYNOGOGUE AT SARDIS

Mosaic floor there, Malryn. I wonder if that circle had inside it the zodiac signs like mosaic floor found here in Beit Alpha... Thanks for that picture.

Sea Bubble: In Spartan warfare, the shield used by soldiers in front rank fighting was too heavy to carry if the soldier chose to run. If that happened, he returned home without his shield. The advice issued by Spartan mothers to soldier sons going into battle, "return with your shield or carried upon it". To do otherwise was considered dishonorable. It meant," Do your duty. Fight the enemy. Do not shirk your responsibility. Do not run from the enemy. I used the term to demonstrate that in spite of weapons being activated more and more remotely, the infantryman must still face the enemy. It continues to be his resolve to stand up to the enemy that wins or loses in warfare.

When Briton's manufacturing capacity exceeded it's consumption power the country sought colonies to absorb it's excess capacity. Periander had a similar problem in Corinth expressed in excess labor. He founded colonies to absorb the excess production. He resorted to the tarrif to control imports and to the excess profits tax to limit the power of the wealthy. He protected the small businessman from the monopolistic power of large business. He solved a crisis of unemployment by undertaking great public works. Americans have thought that Ray Moley, Franklin Roosevelt, and John Keynes, invented the New Deal, but here we see clearly, it was Periander who was the inventor 2500 years before our time.

Corinth attributed much of it's wealth and prosperity to the success of Aphrodite's courtesans. The City looked upon these hospitable women as great benefactors. St Paul in his epistle to the Corthinians denounced these women and so set the pattern for future christian missionaries and the unfortunate position prostitutes now hold in society as well as their susceptibility to criminal control.

Here is a quote from the Durants I think is tantalizing. "The past would be startled if it could see itself in the pages of historians." We look in 5000 year old garbage dumps and try to deduce the appearance of a civilization. How close do we come to seeing the past? I wonder.

"The ruthless son of Cypselus, Periander, in one of the longest dictatorships in Greek history (625-585), established order and discipline, checked exploitation, encouraged business, patronized literature and art, and made Corinth for a time the foremost city in Greece. He stimulated trade by establishing a state coinage, and promoted industry by lowering taxes.
"He solved a crisis of unemployment by undertaking great public works, and establishing colonies abroad. He protected small businessmen from the competition of large firms by limiting the number of slaves that might be employed by one man, and forbidding their further importation.
"He relieved the wealthy of their surplus gold by compelling them to contribute to a colossal golden statue as an ornament for the city. He invited the rich women of Corinth to a festival, stripped them of their costly robes and jewels, and sent them home with half their beauty nationalized.
"His enemies were numerous and powerful. He dared not go out without a heavy guard, and his fear and seclusion made him morose and cruel. To protect himself against revolt, he acted on the cryptic advice of his fellow dictator Thrasybulus of Miletus, that he should periodically cut down the tallest ears of corn in the field.
"His concubines preyed upon him with accusations of his wife, until in a fit of temper he threw her downstairs. She was pregnant, and died of the shock. He burned the concubines alive, and banished to Corcyra his son Lycophron, who so grieved for his mother than he would not speak to his father.
"When the Corcyreans put Lycophron to death, Periander seized three hundred youths of their noblest families and sent them to King Alyattes of Lydia, that they might be made eunuchs. But the ships that bore them touched at Samos, and the Samians, braving Periander's anger, freed them.
"The dictator lived to a ripe old age, and after his death was numbered by some among the Seven Wise Man of ancient Greece."
After reading all that, I feel most thankful that, current world-wide problems notwithstanding, I live in a democracy in a Western culture.
I will be leaving very early tomorrow morning and will be back Sunday afternoon. This may give me time to pause and write a Gratitude List.
I hope we are all Giving Thanks.
Robby

I have often entertained that same thought, JUSTIN. Particularly so the older I have grown. I go back to my home town of Stephens City, Virginia, where for the last decade there has been an annual celebration at the end of May called "Heritage Days", and experienced alarm at the number of "facts" printed in the newspapers and brochures that I and the few of us left of my generation know to be wrong! One friend even took the trouble of going all the way to the top in the group sponsoring this weekend, only to be rebuffed, as her plea to have the record set straight was considered "an unimportant detail"! Whoa! Likewise, I found serious misinformation in a brouchure about my family in Fredericksburg. It stated that my great grandfather, a Major in the Confederate Army, had been a graduate of West Point and a classmate of General Burnside. Total falsehood! This particular great grandfather never graduated West Point (another one, however, did; but he was not even from this town nor is he part of this story!), let alone even entered it as a plebe! I contacted West Point, lest the facts handed down to me were mistaken, and they confirmed my truth. I asked an eminent historian of the Civil War and author of a number of history books to help me get the record set straight. To this date, the people concerned have not troubled themselves to correct their misinformation! Once printed, no matter where or how, these things are picked up by other writers of history and believed as Truth! So frustrating! I don't care all that much whether people know these particular truths; what really riles me is the thought of how very distorted it all may be in a hundred or several hundred years. How very unfair that is to avid future readers of history! I have many, many other examples of things I saw in my own lifetime, but will not go on. Turkey time!

I give thanks to Robby and all of you here who participate in this discussion. You enrich my life everyday. Happy Thanksgiving.

Françoise

Below is a link to the story of Arion, poet and musician in the court of Periander.

ARION

Thank you, one and all, for a pleasant year of conversation.

MaryPage: Your story is more than frustrating. Could you write a letter to the newspaper correcting the information or to whatever local institution of learning or local archives there is. I hope they would welcome your information.

Good luck.

As for understanding what our world is like by future generations, it would be hard to pick through our city garbage because 80% goes to a huge composter. Garden soil comes out the other end. Good things get sold at auction. Some broken useless things go to the dump. A lot gets given to charity. But some family things get passed down. The picture of William Shakespeare as a young man turned up in Ontario. The fellow's ancestor painted it 400 years ago.

I have some chairs and a card table that are approximately 250 years old. I feel it's my responsibility to protect these things until my children inherit them. I have some other furniture from the mid 1800s that my parents bought at auction back in the 1940s when it was possible to get really good English stuff. I wish I knew its provenance but I don't.

My son-in-law Daniel, came back from Kenya yesterday safe and sound. He went there three weeks ago to work as a cameraman for a film documentary of the Maasaï tribes in Kenya. The film director was raised as a Maasaï because her mother, an Ethnologist from France, went to Kenya for a study of the Maasaï tribe 30 years ago and she stayed there raising her daughter in Kenya.

Maasaï people are handsome, dark skinned and they look happy and healthy. Both sexes wear colorful jewelry of bead work on their body, in their hair for special ceremonies. Their igloo type hut for a family of 4 is approximately 14 feet in diameter where they all eat and sleep together. The rest of the time they live outdoors.

The film crew of 3 included the film director, the cameraman, my son-in-law, and the soundman. Their film was about the Maasaï tribesmen and their camel herding, they flew each day to the site because there is no road. They had to bring their food supplies and water from base camp because drinking camel’s milk mixed with blood would have made them sick. It is the tribesmen’s only nourishment during the grazing season, sometimes for up to 9 months. Camels store up water in their hump and can go three weeks without drinking.

They filmed elephants, zebras, hippopotamus, lions, camels, cattle in the wild. Dan showed us those photos he took with his new digital camera that has sound and it can make short films.

The first picture was of the Singing Well. The well is about 30 feet deep. A young man stands in the water at the bottom of the well, fills a bucket, passes it to the man above who also passes it to the man above until the bucket reaches the top of the well and during the endless chain of water buckets going up full and down empty, they sing a song in cadence. These men do that every day and all day. Water is as precious as gold. When animals cames too close to the edge of the well some fell in killing all the men who were in it.

The woman film director lives with her husband on a high plateau by the side of a gorge. They have a small baby. The house has a roof, but no walls as only a refreshing light breeze disturbs the night air. Dan and the soundman were staying with the director and her husband. He took a picture of a scorpion on the wall next to his bedroom.

That couple have each their small plane and a landing strip was built nearby so they can go about their business. The landing strip ends on the edge of the cliff and when the plane has gathered enough speed and comes to the end, it just flies off the cliff like a bird.

Excision and circumcision is widely practiced as it is an indispensable rite of passage for the Maasaï. Dan took a picture of a smiling girl who had had her clitoris removed only 10 days before, happy that she would now be able to get married and have children. No man would marry her without that operation. Men are circumcised without anesthetic as it is considered manly for the Maasaï to be able to stand extreme pain, they have been trained since birth for this.

One photo shows a few dozen vultures devouring the carcass of a wild animal which had been killed only a short while ago, after vultures are finished with it, only bones would be left spread out on the ground. The whole process takes very little time. My SIL said that while he was filming the vultures, flies would land on his face to bite him.

This tribe lives as they have lived since the time of Moses, nothing changed, there is no electricity, no running water, no roads, no pollution, no noise except noises made by nature, like wild animals, the wind, and when people spoke.

When I think of that and how far we have evolved since the beginning of time, there are still human beings who prefer to stay with their own brand of civilization and not one of the Maasaï people Dan met wanted to emigrate.

Eloïse

What is the effect of excision? I strikes me as a brutal-abusive and primitive rite which deprives women of the joy of sex. I don't suppose at this stage of cultural development in the Massai there is much chance of ending this practice. I was appalled by the Asian practice of binding the feet of little girls. But excision is abusive beyond my ken. Why would men want a woman who has been emasculated?

Justin: I think it is conditioning. Our customs are weird to them too.

Masai are famous as suberb runners, just like the Ethiopians. They are also the tallest and the proudest of all the African tribes. They are very handsome with delicate traits similar to semitic origin.

Ethnic groups: Kikuyu 22% (those are the Masaii), Luhya 14%, Luo 13%, Kalenjin 12%, Kamba 11%, Kisii 6%, Meru 6%, other African 15%, non-African (Asian, European, and Arab) 1%.

Languages: English (official), Ki-swahili (official), numerous indigenous languages.

This taken from: http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ke.html

Excision is practiced so that those girls, having less or no pleasure at all, won't be tempted to look elsewhere than their own husband. There is a famous model, a Somali I think, who wrote a book about her experience on that subject. She said the act was so painful that it was a renewed nightmare. Many girls get terrible infections too because no antiseptic is used and the cut is often made with very primitive instruments. It may be tradition, but some traditions are barbaric! (IMHO of course). Bubble

I studied Africa extensively back in the sixties, and there has been much change. My memory is telling me it was cattle the Masai kept and drank the blood of, mixed with the milk of the same cattle. Also there were problems later, as villages of other tribes who cultivated crops increased in size and the Masai free range cattle ate and trampled those crops. As I recall, a Masai was not considered a man until he killed his first lion. It sounds as though the group Eloise's sil just filmed is quite remote from other tribes, and also has acquired camels since the time I read up on them. BUBBLE, I thought they were not part of the Kikuyu, who are the, or were the, most populous tribe in Kenya. The Kikuyu were the ones (much shorter than the Masai) who formed the dreadful Mau Mau (spelling?) some decades back there. They murdered heaps of white settlers and black politicians, changing the leadership of Kenya. The Masai are very tall and slender, but I believe a tribe with a name beginning in W that sort of repeats itself has the reputation of being the tallest in the whole Dark Continent. I'll check it out.

The first link below takes you to a page which has a map and a picture of the Acrocorinth. Click the pictures to enlarge. The second link is about coinage in Ancient Corinth. Click the orange image links toward the bottom of the page to see pictures of coins which show what life was like in Corinth.

Ancient Corinth

Life in Ancient Greece Reflected in the Coinage of Corinth

I can't find anything, but the name has popped up in my so-called brain: WATUSI. I believe they are the tallest tribe. Uganda, I think. Not certain.

STOLEN GREEK ANTIQUITIES

Watutsi, Mary Page? You are right and my memory wrong. But it is true of the Masai too. The Masai had a water problem and that is why they rely on wells that are so deep.

Incredible that collectors would go to such length to satisfy their passion as buying stolen goods without proper authentification. Bubble

Pages 90 & 91: Wow! Imagine that Periander, whom I recall from previous studies, being numbered one of the Seven Wise Men of ancient Greece! Hey, we've had politicians as well who were dreadful in their private lives and excellent in creating the public's well being. But all of that burning of living women and killing his wife is a bit beyond what we are accustomed to! Let us be thankful!

And now we come to that geographical and philosophical area of Ancient Greece which appeals to most people who are intrigued by our origins --

Athens

Durant suggests that we not only learn about Athens through Homer but also through the pen of Hesiod (see GREEN quotes above):--

"East of Megara the road divides -- south to Athens, north to Thebes. Northward the route is mountainous, and draws the traveler up to the heights of Mt. Cithaeron. Far to the west Parnassus is visible.

"Ahead, across lesser heights and far below, is the fertile Boeotian plain. At the foot of the hill lies Plataea, where 100,000 Greeks annihilated 300,000 Persians. A little to the west is Leuctra, where Epaminodas won his first great victory over the Spartans.

"Again a little west rises Mt. Helicon, home of the Muses and Keat's 'blushful Hippocrene' -- that famous fountain, the Horse's Spring, which, we are assured, gushed forth when the hoof of the winged steed Pegasus struck the earth as he leaped toward heaven.'

"Directly north is Thespiae, always at odds with Thebes. And close by is the fountain in which waters Narcissus contemplated his shadow -- or, another story said, that of the dead sister whom he loved."

Let us combine the various myths with the geographical areas where they were supposed to have taken place. Let Hesiod make these myths live for us.

Robby

Although we are not abandoning Athens, those of us who progressed through Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, Persia, India, China, and Japan will find THIS ARTICLE of great interest and may find themselves saying: "So, what's new?" Those who have just joined us and look at Ancient Greece as our "origin" may be amazed at what transpired long before Sparta and Athens came into existence.

Robby

My daughter has been away since early last Thursday morning, and I've been alone. Her son, my 17 year old grandson, did not go with her. Yesterday he surprised me with a visit. Today he brought me a plate full of turkey and stuffing he and his father roasted and cranberry sauce plus a piece of pumpkin pie he made. We were talking about the universities to which he's applied, and he said he wants to go into some phase of science or math. I told him about this discussion and the fact that so much of our civilization has Oriental roots. Now I think I'll direct him to the article you posted, Robby. Thanks!

Mal

My first post, and with a great blush, I admit that the volume sits in my living room, as yet unopened.

I read it back in the 70's and I suppose, somewhere in my memory cells, your question, if it was prompted by this volume, prompted me to years ago dwell upon a possible deterioration of mankind due to civilization.

Perhaps it was this volume, since it prompted you to pose the same question.

I am currently reading (slowly--I am old)War in the Shadows: the Guerrilla in History by Robert B. Asprey,the first chapter covers an era beginning in 500 BC.

Every time I read about war, and the history of wars, I have to think about the warriors, (mostly male) who have gone into and died in battle.

Before we reached what we call "civilization," any and all participated, it seems, except for the bedridden, the elderly and those too defective to carry a sword.

Then I think about "civilized war"--a kind of oxymoron--and what we civilized humans have done.

We have sent our most healthy, most sane, most talented, strongest off to the front lines and left behind, to procreate, the less healthy, the less sane, the less talented, and weakest.

While the former were being killed or maimed, the latter were left at home to reproduce.

I have often wondered if this process does not weaken the more civilized societies and the progeny likely to be produced.

It is just a wonderment I have had for years. Maybe brought about by reading this volume many years ago, or maybe of my own zany thought processes. It seems to me, I discussed this with my husband many years before I encountered the writings of the Durants. But I am old, and I could be mistaken.

Nonetheless, it is something to think about, isn't it?

We who have been examining civilization since the Sumerians first appeared in print are well aware of Teresi's discoveries and could have pointed him in the right direction had he asked. I have no doubt the Durants could have directed him to sources he has only lately uncovered on his debunking expedition.

I picked up a book by Timothy Freke and peter Gandy the other day, titled , "The Jesus Mysteries". These boys pose the idea that Jesus is a continuation of the Dionysus- Osirus myths and the Eleusinian mystery cults.They make the point that the biography of Dionysus- Osirus corresponds precisely to that of Jesus. Anyone who has participated in this discussion could easily have told these boys that was the case long before they started their research. I feel honored that I knew these things all along. This just gives us some idea of the value of the knowledge we have acquired in our study of civilization.

HESIOD -- THE THEOGONY

PREFECTURE OF BOEOTIA

A Beotian in French has the meaning of some one rude, with no education or polish. Is that also right in English? Are they maligered then?

Thanks for those links. Hesiod was not even mentionned while I was in highschool. Bubble

Lapauvres:--Welcome to our family here! You speak of your volume remaining yet unopened. The entire eleven volumes of Durant's set remained unopened on my shelf for years! Then Senior Net came into my life and I saw the opportunity of reading these volumes, not alone which is all right to a degree but, even better, with a group of friendly folks who swap thoughts back and forth.
You certainly give a good argument for the deterioration of Mankind when you point out that the "best" are the ones who constantly kill themselves off. In the animal world, if I understand it correctly, the weaker are killed or die off and the stronger remain to propagate.
As we move ahead, the GREEN quotes in the Heading above will always tell you where we are in your volume. Your thoughts are welcomed. We are looking forward to hearing from you again.

Robby

"Tradition gave 846 and 777 as the dates of Hesiod's birth and death. Some modern scholars bring him down to 650. Probably he lived a century earlier than that.
"He was born at Acolian Cyme in Asia Minor but his father, tired of poverty there, migrated to Ascra, which Hesiod describes as 'miserable in winter, insufferable in summer, and never good' -- like most of the places in which men live. As Hesiod, farm hand and shephered boy, followed his flocks up and down the slops of Helicon, he dreamed that the Muses breathed into his body the soul of poetry. So he srote and sang, and won prizes in musical contests, even, some said, from Homer himself.
"Loving like any young Greek the marvels of mythology, he composed a Theogony, or Genealogy of the gods, of which we have a thousand halting lines, giving those dynasties and families of deities which are as vital to religion as the pedigrees of kings are to history. First he sang of the Muses themselves, because they were, so to speak, his neighbors on Helicon, and in his youthful imagination he could almost see them 'dancing with delicate feet' on the mountainside, and 'bathing their soft skins' in the Hippocrene.
"Then he described not so much the creation as the procreation of the world -- how god begot god until Olympus overflowed.
"In the beginning was Chaos, 'and next broad-bosomed Earth, ever secure seat of all the immortals.' In Greek religion the gods live on the earth or within it, and are always close to men. Next came Tartarus, god of the nether world. And after him Eros, or Love, 'fairest of the gods.' Chaos begot Darkness and Night, which begot Ether and Day. Earth begot Mountains and Heavens, and Heaven and Earth, mating, begot Oceanus, the Sea.
"We capitalize these names, but in Hesiod's Greek there were no capitals, and for all we know he meant merely that in the beginning was chaos, and then the earth, and the inners of the earth, and night and day and the sea, and desire begetting all things. Perhaps Hesiod was a philosopher touched by the Muses and personifying abstractions into poetry. Empedocles would use the same tricks a century or two later in Sicily.
"From such a theology it would be but a step to the natural philosoophy of the Ionians."
A young man with imagination creating a story which later became "facts" in the minds of many others. I wonder how often this has happened in the history of Mankind.

Robby

When the writing grips you Robby, whether it is fiction or fact remains strong in the memory and in the long run fiction can become fact. Historians usually are just as inspired by poetic literature as everybody else is.

"Chaos begot Darkness and Night, which begot Ether and Day. Earth begot Mountains and Heavens, and Heaven and Earth, mating, begot Oceanus, the Sea.

"We capitalize these names, but in Hesiod's Greek there were no capitals...". Literature does strange things and using capitals can emphasize and reinforce a thought. English writers tend to use capitals much more frequently than is allowed in French.

Eloïse

We've seen in Our Oriental Heritage and now in Life of Greece that it is myth and legend people latch onto and call fact, not poetry, though the myth can have its roots in poetry like Hesiod's Theogony. As several have pointed out here, there's a constant effort to differentiate between what is myth or legend and what is fact. Justin pointed out that there were many stories before the common era which were like the story about Jesus. My question is: Why do we choose and follow one belief or legend over another and call it fact?

Mal

Because it is appealing. Yes, some conscienceless persons will have promulgated myths for political reasons, control, etc., but for the vast majority it has been appeal.

I will give you one of my favorite examples from our own time; and believe you me, this is just one of hundreds I know about. During WWII the Danes rescued all of their Jews (true, but roughly 500 chose not to be rescued, and most of these were transported and perished). They showed their distaste for the Nazi scheme from the very beginning. The day after the Jewish citizens had to begin wearing yellow stars on their clothing, the King of the Danes was to be seen walking in the gardens in front of the palace wearing a yellow star sewn to his sleeve! Not true! Everyone believes this, but it is because it is a beautiful story and everyone wants to believe it. The King himself said that he wished it were true. He stated it was untrue, he had never done that, but he wished he had thought of it!

You see how it happens?

"At the end of our fragment of the Theogony Hesiod begins a chivalrous Catalogue of Women, recounting the legends of those days when heroines were as numerous as men, and most of the gods were goddesses
"But in both of his major works he tells with bitter relish how all human ills were brought to man by the beautiful Pandora. Angered by Prometheus' theft of fire from Heaven, Zeus bids the gods mold woman as a Greek gift for man.
"He bade Hephaestus with all speed mix earth with water, and endue it with man's voice and strength, and to liken in countenance to immortal goddesses the fair, lovely beauty of a maiden. Then he bade Athena teach her how to weave the highly wrought web, and golden Aphrodite to shed around her head grace, and painful desire, and cares that waste the limbs. But to endue her with a dog-like mind and tricky manners, he charged the messenger Hermes.
"They obeyed Zeus and the herald of the gods placed within her a winning voice. And this woman he called Pandora, because all who dwelt in Olympian mansions bestowed on her a gift -- a mischief to inventive men.
"Zeus presents Pandora to Epimetheus, who, though he has been warned by his brother Prometheus not to accept gifts from the gods, feels that he may yueld to bauty this once.
"Now Prometheus has left with Epimetheus a mysterious box, with instructions that it should under no circumstances be opened. Pandora, overcome with curiosity, opens the box, whereupon ten thousand devils fly out of it and begin to plague the life of man, while Hope alone remains. From Pandora, says Hesiod, 'is the race of tender women. From her is a pernicious race. And tribes of women, a great hurt, dwell with men, helpmates not of consuming poverty but of surfeit.'
"So to mortal men Zeus gave women as an evil."
Any comments here? Myself, I am sitting quietly in the corner.

Robby

Okay, ROBBY; you are asking for it, so here it comes:

WHEN YOU NEED SOMEONE TO BLAME, LOOK TO THE WOMEN!

Sure Robby, you sit in the corner and watch the firewords display.

Lapauvres: Your 104. Good post. Too bad we aren't supposed to mention politicians by name on this forum. Some come to mind.

The Arabs gave Europe more than scientific knowledge. They had translated the Greeks writings into Arabic so when the early church destroyed as much 'pagan' knowledge as it could find, it was preserved and rediscovered when the Arabs occupied Europe. They also gave Europeans table manners, distinct courses in a meal, and lovely architechture. When Islam was taken over by religious conservative fundamentalists, this great people was plunged back into the middle ages. History repeats itself. Those who don't know history are bound to repeat it.

Justin: #105. Also Mithra.

There are people who refuse to believe facts today. Many people believe that men never walked on the moon and believe the pictures from Mars were a set-up, not real. Truth is stranger than fiction.

It reminds me of the story of Adam and Eve in the bible. Eve was the transgressor by eating the apple from the tree of life. After that all men would have to earn his living by the sweat of his brow, and all women would bear children in pain and suffering. The writer of this story also chose the woman as the cause of all suffering.

The two stories are similar, and in both, women bring suffering to mankind. Man needed someone to blame for the pitfalls of everyday living, and women seemed the obvious choice since they had no power. One opens a box, and the other eats an apple, and all the ills of the world are put at their feet.

What a huge burden we had, responsibility for all the evil in the world, and had somehow to continue to live and raise families with all the burdens associated with everyday life. If women had written the story, we might have fared better.

Fifi: True. Adam would have eaten the apple then handed it to Eve.

There is no doubt from this most recent quote from The Life of Greece and from many previous posts from Our Oriental Heritage that women have been time and time again blamed for all the evils of the world. The lower status of women compared to that of men has also been constantly exemplified.

This is the WHAT. But can anyone tell us the WHY? This existed in just about every Eastern Civilization that we visited. And now it exists again as we gradually move toward the Western Civilization. But WHY?

Can anyone here temporarily put aside the emotion that accompanies this ever-repeating condition and let us know both 1) why men bring it into being, and 2) why women appear to accept it and even at times encourage it?

Robby

Did any of these ancients understand reproduction? Weren’t women "dirty" once a month? Didn’t their bellies grow bigger and bigger before babies were born, and wasn’t that birth scene an awful mess? Women are frightening; they’re inexplicable. How to explain all the things that happen to them when you don’t have any idea what’s going on, especially when these things affect their moods and turn a quiet woman into a shrieking witch.

You’re a man and different. None of this ever happens to you. You’re strong, stronger than they are. Yet . . . . Yet you need women. You need that release. Terrible how when you’re busy fighting a battle or tracking some game and you see or think about a woman and feel so weak you can't think of anything else until you somehow get that release.

It’s their fault. This has nothing to do with you.

Their functions are mysterious and disturbing. They won’t behave. They bother you. Punish them; hide them. Get rid of them.

And when you do, you still need them. They turn your world upside down, and you still need them. Put them somewhere so they’ll be there when you want them. Keep them under control and pull them out when you get the urge. That’s the only possible thing you can do if you’re a man.

You're a woman in those ancient days . . . and now? Well, if you’re a woman and are hurt enough physically by a man, you’ll submit because you have no other choice.

Mal

And Mal, there is also the need that women have for a man to hunt for her, protect her and stick around while she raises her children. She will put up with a lot to gain the benefit of this "protector".

Also in some books of ancient myths I have read that before there was the organization we now call Civilization, women were the Goddess'. And this mystery of procreation that Mal talks about was the basis for womens cults and you find all over the world ancient hearth goddess' and fertility goddess.Men probably were held in awe of these cults and resented the women. So, a natural progression as Civilization progressed -the myths began to include the stories of the women that brought "sorrow" to the world. The bible story of Adam and Eve is blaming the victim for her plight (bring forth thy children in pain and sorrow.)fr

Some women, in all civilizations I am sure, have learned to seem weak and meek but know how to be manipulative in the dark and get their own. This is a kind of power too.

We have had two excellent "Why?" questions recently. Mal asks,"Why one myth is accepted as fact in preference to another? Robby asks, "Why women tend to be held in such low esteem? The characteristic has appeared again and again in every civilization we have examined thus far.

I don't want to let either one of these questions slip by without full treatment. They are too important to pass over lightly.

Consider the first question. Why is one myth accepted as fact in preference to another? Part of the answer lies in fads. When Isis was in fashion that was considered the true myth. When Mithra was in fashion that was the true myth. Several myths have continued at the top of the charts for millennia.

Another part of the answer, I think, lies in "pride of ownership". We have the best myth. We have the only myth. It is important for people to feel a part of something and that something is the best something. Today, the Islamists have their Allah and he is the only... and the best.

Another part of the answer is "Personal Benefit". A myth that appears to benefit one personally is one that is believed as fact.There must be something in it for me, if I am to believe.

There must be other reasons, perhaps some more important than those I have chosen.

Consider the second question. "Why women have been held in such low esteem throughout history? I don't think there is any single answer to the question.

One possible cause is that women tend to be smarter than men although weaker physically. A man who can live with a woman who is smarter than he is and still feel comfortably confident of his own ability is rare but very worthy. Many men must dominate physically to be comfortable in such a relationship and they justify their domination by making women less worthy of equality. Many men seek out women who are less capable than they to ensure they are the dominant member of the team.

Well, that's a start. You ask tough questions, Robby.

Justin, then I deduce from your post that a smart woman would show herself to be less capable that her mate so as not to be challenged or bothered? *grin*

If a woman’s life is going to be fairly enjoyable, she has to take certain steps from the day she realizes that she is a woman and that is very early on. That is why women are superior to men. Sorry guys. A girl usually gets better grades in school. She has to develop her intellect because she will need it later when she has to compete with men for her place in society.

When she gives birth, she becomes totally committed to her baby and during this crucial time in her life, she also becomes totally dependent on her man for protection, for her livelihood, that of her baby and of her other small children. The feeling of protection that a woman feels for her baby is so strong that she could kill anyone who threatens the life of her baby. So to put up with her man even if he is not perfect and sometimes abusive is a choice that women make. Sometimes that translates into ‘for the sake of the children I have no choice’.

A woman who has a successful relationship with her man doesn’t feel inferior, she feels equal to him and when she was a child, by watching her mother with her father she learned how to choose the right man who will make her feel equal. This "The lower status of women compared to that of men has also been constantly exemplified" is Durant’s opinion. If all men had such a low opinion of women as he describes it, the world would not contain as many human beings. If all women had conceived only by being raped they would not have had the emotional balance to raise children and function adequately in society.

The inequality between men and women is only temporary. When her children have grown up, women become equal to men. They have earning capacity, live longer and are no longer dependent on men for survival and are better equipped with living without a mate than men are. What we read in S of C is only one side of the picture, the woman’s point of view is not mentioned because there is more to civilization than war, intrigue, economic power, lots of money in the bank. There are family and moral values to be transmitted and women have that role because these are mostly transmitted in early childhood and in her view that is just as valuable as what men have.

Of course, that is the opinion of one woman living in this century in North America.

Eloïse

Eloise, You have been lucky and must have had extraordinary parents. Nowadays it is very rare from what I hear around me. Parents are too busy rushing around and making a position, or making money. I agree completely with what you say. I find that women in general are less ambitious, or at least seek less recognition than men, don't you agree? Bubble

Durant spoke to this question from another point of view.

"Such is the theology of history with which Hesiod explains the poverty and injustice of his time. These ills he knew by sight and touch. But the past, which the poets had filled with heroes and gods, must have been nobler and lovelier than this. Surely men had not always been as poor and harassed and petty as the peasants whom he knew in Boeotia. He does not realize how deeply the faults of his class enter into his own outlook, how narrow and earthly, almost commercial, are his views of life and labor, women and men.

"What a fall this is from the picture of human affairs in Homer, as a scene of crime and terror, but also of grandeur and nobility! Homer was a poet, and knew that one touch of beauty redeems a multitude of sins. Hesiod was a peasant who grudged the cost of a wife, and grumbled at the impudence of women who dared to sit at the same table with their husbands. Hesiod, with tough candor, shows in the ugly basement of early Greek society -- the hard poverty of serfs and small farmers upon whose toil rested all the splendor and war sport of the aristocracy and the kings.

"Homer sang of heroes and princes -- for lords and ladies. Hesiod knew no princes, but sang his lays of common men, and pitched his tune accordingly. In his verses we hear the rumblings of those peasant revolts that would produce in Attica the reforms of Solon and the dictatorship of Peisistratus."

Each of us "blind" persons in life feeling and describing the different parts of the elephant?

Robby

To those newcomers here who are not aware of this, if you click onto the link, "Part 1", which is just below my name in the Heading above, you can go back to the very beginning of this discussion and read what you may have missed.

Robby

"The inequality between men and women is only temporary. When her children have grown up, women become equal to men."

Does this mean women aren't equal to men until then? Why do they have to wait so long, for Pete's sake? If women are so all-fired smart, why did it take such a long time for them to get the right to vote? Why don't they receive the same pay as men? Let's face it, Eloise and Justin, women are inferior, and that's all there is to that!

The elephant of reality is only what we can see, hear and feel. We interpret life in other places than where we are and don't experience it, and we interpret it from our own position by the elephant. Stand at one end, and "life are s*** ", as an old Slovak friend of mine used to say all the time. There have been sages throughout unwritten and written history who have said the same thing. Stand at another end, and life are rosy. It all depends on where you are and what part of the elephant you are near. No wonder it's so hard for us to understand and accept the view of reality the other guy has on the other side of the elephant far away over there.

Mal

Bubble - "I find that women in general are less ambitious, or at least seek less recognition than men, don't you agree? Bubble

What we generally think about ambition is to work hard at lofty goals that men usually aim for like running a company, a corporation, be in politics, have a degree and a high profile career a good business. In that context, there are very few men, like Justin said, who can be comfortable with having such a woman as a mate, not always because he wants to dominate her, but most men need to feel superior than their wife to feel like a real man. It takes intelligence for a man to recognize value in a woman and when he does, it results in a wonderful relationship.

And when a women does not have that kind of ambition because all she wants is to make her man comfortable and be proud of the way she raised her children she can be just as happy as the one above provided her man treats her as an equal because of the success she has in doing what she does.

Eloïse

It takes more than ambition for a woman to succeed in what has through centuries and centuries been a man's world; it takes great strength and courage and a willingness to push on after rejection at practically every turn. The same doors of opportunity which are opened to men are not opened to women. Heaven help either a woman or man if they show visible signs of weakness like a handicap. Even then men are preferred by an employer. Believe me -- I know.

Women are considered inferior and have been almost since time began. Therefore they are. Why? Because they think they are.

If there had been women of note in Ancient times, we can be sure Durant would have mentioned them, as he did Helen of Troy and Alexander's mother-in-law. Sure, some women have been elevated to goddess status as we read in the myths, many of which the Durants had to use as foundation for these books because there is no historical fact, but most ancient women never rose beyond uneducated drudge status.

Yes, making a husband comfortable and raising children is a noble way of life, as long as the woman keeps herself in mind. Why then do women say, "Oh, I'm just a housewife"?

Mal

Below is a link to some very fine pictures of Ancient Delphi. Click the picture to access a larger one.

ANCIENT DELPHI

I am quoting you Mal "Why then do women say, "Oh, I'm just a housewife"?" I don't know why they say that.

Being a single parent and raising my three children I wasn't just a housewife I am a "DOMESTIC ENGINEER".

Women are and always will be a "DOMESTIC Engineer". Even back in ancient times - No MAN can claim that distinction!

Hunting-gathering societies were egalitarian. When nomadic herders came into the picture, when animals were domesticated, lines were drawn as to gender duties. A more aggressive attitude was needed for a herder to succeed than in the hunting-gathering societies. Women, once man's equal or superior, had to tend to their children while the men herded and a great division of labor began which, when added to the additional aggression of herders, is what initiated the male assumption of superiority and the belief that 'might makes right.' In order to adopt a superior status men had to denigrate women and what once was woman's power, the giving of life, became dirty and women became dirty.

This isn't limited, by any means, to gender roles. One group's ridicule, hate, or put down of another group of people is justification, however wrong, for the taking of power. Having been told for ages -- perhaps a century or more -- that they are inferior, some people accept that label of inferiority. It's difficult to change attitudes of superiority or inferiority, based on nothing more than gender-race-religion-nationality-family heritage, which have been set for years.

Marvelle

HISTORY OF DELPHI

TEMPLE OF APOLLO PICTURE

TREASURY PICTURE

STOA OF ATHENIANS PICTURE

THE THOLOS PICTURE

THEATRE OF THE SANCTUARY PICTURE

Recently i learned that Delphi means "navel of the world". I saw a picture of gathered whirling rocks in Delphi that is believed by the Greeks to prove this fact. Maybe someone could find this picture for me.

To comment about the difference between a man and a woman, I like the comparison given to me of a chariot with wheels on either side, each one of the different sex. They have to be different and assume a different position even if they may not always understand each other as long as they move forward, that is the purpose. In that respect they are absolutely equal as one cannot go without the other. If we put tbem on the same side, they go round and round and the evolution is stopped. Today, men and women realise their importance in the home for the well-being of children and are changing their ways to look at a career with more parental time.

Françoise

I think that claims that modern western women are inferior to men, and are just domestic servants or fashionable clothes horses, are exagerated. Here in NZ the top five political and administrative positions are all held by women, and the ceo of our biggest business is a woman. Girls excell in our schools,( they out class the boys) and when they reach adulthood, they figure prominently in all professions. Things were different 100 years ago in this country, but nowadays all are equal in this society. ( But still many of the ladies will never admit it! VBG )== Trevor

Françoise, that's my girl.

Trevor, make room for us we are all moving to New Zealand. Men out there seem to know what equality is all about.

There are more women in universities now than men.

I have known several men who boasted that their wives were smarter than they were. But they were quite smart too.

We were conditioned to believe men were smarter. Men made the decisions, men made the living. The family lived with the consequences if the man made a wrong decision. Because my father taught at the local university, this 'rule' seemed to hold true to me. Outside of one couple where the wife had a doctorate in mathematics and taught at the university (this was the 1940s), the rest of the wives brought up the children and did volunteer work. When I got my first job, I met really dumb men. Although they were self-important, they were really dumb and I didn't know what to make of them. It didn't fit into the 'rule' I had grown up with.

Those photos were stupendous, Mal!! I hope everybody clicked onto each of them and paused to enjoy them while imagining a temporary visit to centuries before the birth of Christ.

Robby

In Delphi, so the people believed, there was the omphalous of the world(the navel). There was a rock in the temple of Appollo over which the Oracle for Appollo would sit on her three legged stool and hold "court". She answered questions and gave solutions to quarrels at certain times of the day. She was Appollo's chosen one, and must be a crone,postmenopausal. These women were chosen of course by a few of the men in Appollos temple but after becoming the Oracle she was treated as "holy". Now this is not the only story in myth that revered the crone so in some way the growing older, finishing with the duties of motherhood, brings most women the feeling of being able to show her abilities outright and her consciousness changes in and after menopause so that she is truly more able to openly compete with men. Is this good? I dont know? Is this biological to protect the young by keeping the mother home close to the children? I think so ...Faith

Durant continues:--

"A thousand feet below the sacred city of Delphi is the Crisaean plain, bright with the silver leaves of ten thousand olive trees. Five hundred feet farther down is an inlet of the Corinthian Gulf. Ships move with the stately, silent slowness of distance over waters deceptively motionless. Beyond are other ranges, clothed for a moment in royal purple by the setting sun.

"At a turn in the road is the Castalian Spring, framed in a gorge of perpendicular cliffs. From the heights, legend said, the citizens of Delphi hurled the wandering Aesop. Over them, says history, Philomelus the Phocian drove the defeated Locrians in the Second Sacred War.

"Above are the twin peaks of Parnassus, where the Muses dwelt when they tired of Helicon. Greeks who climed a hundred tortuous miles to stand on this mountainside -- poised on a ledge between mist-shrouded heights and a sunlit sea, and surrounded on every side with beauty or terror -- could hardly doubt that beneath these rocks lived some awful god. Time and again earthquake had rumbled here, frightening away the plundering Persians, and a century later the plundering Phocians, and a century later the plundering Gauls. It was the god protecting his shrine.

"As far back as Greek tradition could reach, worshipers had gathered here to find in the winds among the gorges, or the gases escaping from the earth, the voice and will of diety. The great stone that nearly closed the cleft from which the gases came was, to the Greeks, the center of Greece, and therefore the omphalos, as they called it, the umbilicus or very navel of the world."

So many names and locations mentioned here. I hope that all participants here are taking advantage of pausing to use the Links. This is what makes this discussion group even more enlightening and stimulating than just reading the book. Here we have both the words and the images.

Robby

Click HERE to learn about recent scientific research which identifies the "sweet smelling gas" which emanated from the fissures in the rock at Delphi and how it affected the woman who presided over the oracle.

Robby

Robby maybe all we old crones should have some ethelyn :)for the euphoria that comes from finally being equal or at least able finally to openly state our opinions in the presence of men.

The storys of the Oracle at Delphi that I have read all failed to mention this gas that was emitted in the little screened off spot where she sat. fr

CASTALIA SPRING PICTURE

"Imagination pictures the scene in the days of Apollo's festival -- fervent pilgrims crowding the road to the sacred city -- filling noisily the inns and tents thrown up to shelter them -- passing curiously and skeptically among the booths where subtle traders displayed theirwares -- mounting in religious procession or hopeful pilgrimage to Apollo's temple -- laying before it their offering or sacrifice -- chanting their hymns or saying their prayers -- sitting awed in the theater -- and plodding up half a thousand trying steps to witness the Pythian games or gaze in wonder at mountains and sea.
"Life once passed this way in all its eagerness."

Robby

And now we move on to the Region of
Attica
where Athens is located.
Click HERE to see a map of Attica.

Robby

Forgive me, please; I have been at work, then shopping, and am JUST now getting in here. ROBBY, my answers to your two questions are: (1) Why do they do it? Because it makes them feel superior. It is built into the human persona to love to preen over being higher up in the pecking order scale. (2) Why do some women accept it? They are cowed and conditioned into it, sometimes by religion. Why do some even appear to encourage it? This I admit I have seen myself, and it is a perversion I simply cannot fathom.

For myself, I have been afraid of lightning, traffic, and disease. I cannot recall ever being afraid of leaving my husband and going out on my own with my babies. For me, it was always a given that I could if I felt I needed to. And I do mean completely on my own, I am not alluding to any family assistance. I've just never been afraid for a second of being able to earn a living and take care of myself and my children. I think education is the key here. And probably knowing you have useful skills helps. I explained to my 3 girls that they had to have this type of independence before they married. So they became teachers and a nurse, and passed the torch to their 6 daughters, who have each become something before marrying. Now we have 2 in the 4th generation to bring up the same way, and Emily, age nine, can already recite the mantra!

I am very excited because 2 of our PBS tv channels will be showing VISIONS OF GREECE on Thursday night this week. It is the MOST gorgeous show imaginable, all taken from helicopter close up. Yummy! Look to see if you can get it where you are.

Participants in this forum are not allowed to take time off to go shopping.

Robby

Well NZ must be a very advanced country. It is now called a matriachal society. All the highest positions in our land are held by women.

The Prime Minister

The Governor General

The Chief Justice

The Attorney General.

The CEO of our biggest corporation (NZ Telecom) is a woman.

PBS have done a piece showing how far behind the USA is in the advancement of women. It is showing here in a couple of weeks- look out for it on your PBS channel.

Carolyn

GO NEW ZEALAND!

ROBBY, my friend, I will not respond to that quip, but watch your back........

"The very atmosphere in Attica seems different -- clean, sharp, and bright. Each year here has three hundred sunny days. We are at once reminded of Cicero's comment on 'Athens' clear air, which is said to have contributed to the keenness of the Attica mind.' Rain falls in Attica in autumn and winter, but seldom in summer. Fog and mist are rare. Snow falls about once a year in Athens, four or five times a year on the surrounding mountaintops.
"The summers are hot, though dry and tolerable. In the lowlands, in ancient days, malarial swamps detracted from the healthiness of the air. The soil of Attica is poor. Nearly everywhere the basic rock lies close to the surface, and makes agriculture a heartbreaking struggle for the simplest goods of life.
Only adventurous trade, and the patient culture of the olive and the grape, made civilization possible in Attica. Towns are everywhere -- at every harbor along the coast, in every valley among the hills. An active and enterprising people had settled Attica in or before neolithic days, and had hospitably received and intermarried with Ionians -- a mixture of Pelasgo-Mycenaeans and Achaeans -- fleeing from Boeotia and the Peloponnesus in the face of the northern migrations and invasions.
"Here was no conquering alien race exploiting a native population, but a complex Mediterranean stock, of medium stature and dark features, directly inheriting the blood and culture of the old Helladic civilization, proudly conscious of its indigenous quality, and excluding from its national sanctuary, the Acropolis, those half-barbarian upstarts, the Dorians."
A growing civilization -- aided by olives, grapes, and trade. Any comments?

Robby

MAP SHOWING THE PREFECTURE OF ATTICA
Click the icons on the map for information about the area.

The following quote came from HERE.

" Athens entered the Archaic Period in the same way so many of its neighbors, as a city-state ruled by a basileus , or 'king.' Unlike Sparta, however, Athens' history was not dominated by invasion of a neighbor, for the land around Athens was agriculturally rich and the city had a harbor so that it could trade easily with city-states around the Aegean. The power of the basileus slowly faded; underneath the basileus was a council of nobles, which were called the Areopagus, from the name of the hill on which they met. In the eighth century BC, these nobles gradually became very wealthy, particularly off of the cash crops of wine and olive oil, both of which require great wealth to get started. As their wealth increased, the nobles of the Areopagus slowly stripped the king of power until Athenian government imperceptibly became an oligarchy. The Areopagus consisted of a varying number of members, and it elected nine archons, or "rulers," to run the state. The archons, however, always had to submit to the approval or veto of the Areopagus, and they also became members of the Areopagus when their term in office expired, so, in reality, the Areopagus ruled the country.

"Rule by the wealthy, however, is often inherently unstable. In Athens, the farmers in the surrounding countryside produced mainly wheat, while the wealthy and nobility owned estates that produced wine and olive oil. Wheat-farming was badly managed, however; the average Athenian farmer didn't rotate crops or let fields lie fallow. Production of wheath plummeted at the same time that Athenians began to import wheat and to export olive oil and wine. So not only did production of wheat fall, so did its price. Pretty soon, even though the wealthy farmers were making money hand over fist, the average farmer had fallen deeply into debt to the wealthiest members of society. To pay for that debt, farmers sold their children, their wives, and even themselves into (limited) slavery both in Athens and abroad. The situation was a powder-keg waiting to go off; suffering under unmanageable debts, sold into slavery, with the government under the control of the wealthy people that were the causes of their problems, the average Athenian farmer was primed for revolution."

Athens with its atmosphere clear, clean and bright? Last time I was there, the air was so polluted in town that they made a law allowing cars to travel only each other day. These cars had special stickers on the windshield with different color for even or uneven days. It was no problem for Athenians, each family simply got an additional car. The pollution never diminished. The smog was terrible, causing severe throat irritation.

Very good maps and pictures. It brought back many memories.

"A growing civilization -- aided by olives, grapes, and trade."

It just struck me. Doesn't this remind you of Crete?

Mal

It looks very much the same, the people are very similar and if you were transpported there by magic I don't think you could guess where you are exactly. The food is certainly the same, tasty, fresh and plentiful. Buzuki music too.

Bubble:--Regarding pollution, that shows what we humans have done to Athens' clean air in 2000 years.

Robby

Mals article mentions the decline of wheat production, and that Athens began importing wheat. I had just read an article about the ancient city of Panticapaeum on the northern coast of the Black Sea (modern Kerch in the Ukraine). The Crimea was known as the bread basket to their part of the world. It was captured by the Spartocids in 438BC and ruled by them for over 300 years. They were traders who prospered in trade in wheat and other goods.

It is estimated a population of 40,000, making it one of the largest cities in the Greek speaking world. They had gold coinage and magnificent rock tombs.

The article was about the looting of over 70 of these tombs, along with other antiquities which end up in New York and London.

I have just finished the book, "The Final Sack of Nineveh" by John Malcolm Russell, which details the looting of Iraq. The ancient city of Nineveh is in northern Iraq, (modern Mosul).

The author was there right before the Gulf War broke out, and of course had to leave, but not before he photographed and documented engravings on King Sennacherib's throne room in his palace. Recently pieces of the engravings have shown up in auction houses for sale. Entire slabs have been broken off and sold to buyers, even though it is illegal in the USA and Britain. Most of the pieces end up in New York and London.

The ancient cities of Nineveh and Nimrod in northern Iraq, and the city of Nippur in southern Iraq are being sacked. Their antiquities stolen, and put for sale on the open market. The museums in the north and south of Iraq were sacked by mobs during and immediately after the Gulf War. The south is controlled by the shiites, and the north by the Kurds, with protection by the USA and Britain. The only museum that was not sacked was in Bagdad.

I know looting of other countries art, sculpture, gold, jewels, antiquities of all kinds has gone on since man began to invade and conquer, but it grieves me to know that even though it is illegal today, it continues. I suppose if the pyramids could have been moved, they would be in London today or New York.

......

"Each town or village someimes took its name from the clan, or from the god or hero whom it worshiped, as in the case of Athens. The traveler entering Attica from eastern Boeotia would come first to Oropus, and receive no very favorable impression. Oropus was a frontier town, as terrifying to the tourist as any such today. 'Oropus,' says Dicaearchus about 300 B.C. 'is a nest of hucksters. The greed of the customhouse officials here is unsurpassed, their roguery inveterate and bred in the bone. Most of the people are coarse and truculent in their manners, for they have knocked the decent members of the community on the head.'
"From Oropus southward one moved through a close succession of towns -- Rhamnus, Aphidna, Deceleia (a strtegic point in the Peloponnesian War), Acharnae (home of Aristophanes' pugnacious pacifist Decaeopolis), Marathon, and Brauton -- in whose great temple stood that statue of Artemis which Orestes and Iphigenia had brought from the Tauric Chersonese, and where, every four years, as much of Attica as could come joined in the piety and debauchery of the Brauaronia, or feast of Artemis.
"Then Prasiae and Thoricus. Then the silver-mining region of Laurium, so vital in the economic and military history of Athens then, at the very point of the peninsual. Sunium, on whose cliffs a lovely temple rose as a guide to mariners and their hopeful offering to the incalculable Poseidon.
"Then up the western coast (for Attica is half coast, and its very name is from aktike, coastland) past Anaphlystus to the isle of Salamis, home of Ajax and Euripides. Then to Eleusis, sacred to Demeter and her mysteries, and then back to the Piraeus.
"Into this sheltered port, neglected before Themistocles revealed its possibilities, ships were to bring the goods of all the Mediterranean world for the use and pleasure of Athens. The courage and inventiveness of the people of Attica won for them the markets of the Aegean.
Out of that commercial empire came the wealth, the power, and the culture of Athens in the Periclean age."
Durant gives us a colorful and detailed picture of Attica so that we can see the activity in each of the towns and the atmosphere which gave birth to a larger Athens. Comments, anyone?

Robby

Here are the ruins of the theatre at OROPUS -- the "frontier town" which Durant said was terrifying to the tourist.

Robby

The change in the GREEN quotes above signal a change to a new era --

"According to Greek belief, Theseus with a benevolent 'synoecism' had brought the people of Attica into one political organization, with one capital. Five miles from the Piraeus, and in a nest of hills -- Hymettus, Pentelicus, and Parnes -- Athens grew around the old Mycenaean acropolis. All the landowners of Attica were its citizens. The oldest families, and those with the largest holdings, wielded the balance of power. They had tolerated the kingship when disorder threatened, but when quiet and stability returned, they reasserted their feudal domination of the central government.

"After King Codrus had died in heroic self-sacrifice against the invading Dorians, they announced that no one was good enough to succeed him, and replaced the king with an archon chosen for life. In 752 they limited the tenure of the archonship to ten years, and in 683 to one. On the latter occasion they divided the powers of the office among nine archons. An archon eponymos, who gave his name to the year as a means of dating events -- an archon hasileus, who bore the name of king but was merely head of the state religion -- a polemarchos, or military commander -- and six thesmothetai, or lawmakers.

"As in Sparta and Rome, so in Athens the overthrow of the monarchy represented not a victory for the commons, or any intentional advance toward democracy, but a recapture of mastery by a feudal aristocracy -- one more swing of the pendulum in the historical alteration between localized and centralized authority. By this piecemeal revolution the royal office was shorn of all its powers, and its holder was confined to the functions of a priest.

"The word 'king' remained in the Athenian constitution to the end of its ancient history, but the reality was never restored.

"Institutions may with impunity be altered or destroyed from above if their names are left unchanged."

Only landowners were considered citizens. The "old rich" held the balance of power over not only the poor but the central government. Struggle between local and central authority. Titles remaining but power reduced.

Ring a bell?

Robby

Yep! Same old, same old.

Perhaps, rather than going through life exploiting or fighting the system, as the case may be, some genius Social Scientist will come up with a blue print that works best for all. But hey, haven't many already done that? Marx, Hitler, et al?

So if Mankind keeps repeating and repeating and repeating, ad infinitum, why are we bothering to spend any time reading The Story of Civilization?

Robby

WE are doing this because it fascinates us. Actually, it could be a humongous help if everyone was raised on this stuff from pre-school. Seriously, it beats fantasy and fairy tales by light years. If every single human being knew history, it would considerably improve on the current situation where most of us believe current happenings are unique in our history and that what is happening to us personally is the most important story of all time AND, and this is terribly important, OUR TRIBE or OUR NATION is not necessarily in the right on every question or regarding every action.

p.s. I think it might also make us less gullible. Gullible is bad.

Because we become aware it is repeating itself only by reading SoC? So much knowledge of history and geography is lost and never taught (or never absorbed) in schools today. So we do our reading and learning in later days.

I was chatting with a group of american teenagers 14-17 years old. I could not believe that they hadn't a clue where Ontario was, when it is part of a neighboring country. As for names of kings and leaders in Greece, it would relate to them only if there was a Hollywood film about it, and then it would also have the glitter and distortion pictured in that film. It is really sad. Bubble

Just to let you all know Malryn has lost power and will return to us when it resumes! Other than that she is okay!

History does repeat and repeat. Knowing some history and trying to understand the process of human reasoning does help one not to be too gullible.

Thanks for the message Moxie. I hope she has a heating other than electric.

Thank you, Moxi, for letting us know about Mal. That is why we call ourselves here a family. Each of us is concerned about the other.
I live in Virginia, a few hundred miles north of where Mal is, but we have snow and ice as well. It was a surprise early storm. We will be looking forward to hearing from Mal again.

Robby

I hope Mal will get the power back confined as she is without a computer is not pleasant. Here we didn't get any snow and ice. But the flu season in in full swing.

I am wondering too what the kids are learning in school. It depends on which school thought My grand'daughter 11, is getting very good schooling and she knows her geography quite well but it could be because the parents conpensate. Listening to what the parents say at the dinner table is schooling in itself.

MaryPage I agree partly with what you said except "If every single human being knew history, it would considerably improve on the current situation" because several world leaders and those in power know about history, but they still repeat it over and over again. The fight for power and for staying in power is stronger than reason.

Eloïse

Eloise- What you say is correct. Its all about Power. Much of the turmoil we see today in the World is because the time has come in our generation where the poor and oppressed are now crying out for justice. Also they are not prepared to sit and wait for the crumbs from the table of the rich and powerful.

Carolyn

So unless I am missing something, the various comments in the last ten or so postings have been saying that, except for technological advances, our life is almost identical in power struggles and everything else to the Ancient Greek life that Durant has described.

Robby

and you are very quiet about your views...

In searching for "Eupatrid Oligarchs" I came to this LINK which said "Xenophon characterized Critas as a ruthless, amoral tyrant, whose crimes would eventually be the cause of Socrates' death...

Critas' family was among the most prminent of the old aristocratic Eupatrid clans that ruled Athens before the advent of Democracy."

Eloïse

It appears that Democracy didn't arrive in Athens easily.

Robby

History repeats itself because human nature doesn't change. We are tarted up versions of the ancients. Men still go to war. Sometimes they use weapons, sometimes they use sanctions or other economic tools. Alliances are still made for war, politics or economic reasons.

"Under the rule of the oligarchs, the population was divided into three political ranks -- the hippes, or knights, who owned horses and could serve as cavalry -- the zeugitai, who owned a yoke of oxen and could equip themselves to fight as hoplites or heavy-armed troops -- and the thetes, hired laborers who fought as light-armed infantry. Only the first two were accounted citizens, and only the knights could serve as archons, judges, or priests.
"After completing their term of office the archons, if no scandal had tarnished them, became automatically and for life members of the houle or Council that met in the cool of the evening on the Areopagus, or Ares' hill, chose the archons, and ruled the state.
"Even under the monarchy this Senate of the Arcopagus had limited the authority of the king. Now, under the oligarchy, it was as supreme as its counterpart in Rome."
No signs yet of democracy, as far as I can see.

Robby

ANCIENT AGORA OF ATHENS

If the name of a function does not change, it is easy to alter the character of the function. The Greeks kept the title Archon but varied the number and length of service and altered the function with apparent ease.

I see the characteristic repeating in the U.S. today and I am concerned. We are so gullible. We let it happen because the title remains the same.

In the U.S. we have given the President control over our four branches of government. In addition we have expanded his power with the Patriot Act and a Home Security Act. Think about it. This President has more power, much more power than FDR during WWll and his acquisition of it was easy because there was no title change and he had an excuse. (9/11)

Whenever the government gains in power, the electorate loses. Have we lost power? Of course we have. The man in the office of President was not elected by the people. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.There is other evidence. The Patriot act and the Home security Act readjust rights we hold under the constitution. It is to the courts we must look for redress but I have little confidence this court will protect us against intrusion.

These are alterations in the political power structure that mimic changes we have seen throughout history. Yes, history repeats and we in the Durant study group should see it very clearly.

Justin, I think there are many people who see this happening, but have their hands tied about denouncing this if they want to keep their job.

If human beings were diffirent today than they were in Ancient Times, I would have hope that this democracy was safely in place for a longer period of time, but because we are the same, democracy has allowed the acquisition of great wealth which can influence elected officials in a direction that the electorate do not wish to go. The momentum of that enormous machine gobbling everything in its path would be very hard to stop now and it is charging ahead regardless of who might be trying to stop it.

Eloïse

Justin says:--"These are alterations in the political power structure that mimic changes we have seen throughout history. Yes, history repeats and we in the Durant study group should see it very clearly."
If history is teaching us this, is history also teaching us that "the people" are helpless?

Robby

Personally I do not see that we are ready for a revolution, at least in the influencial countries. So it will follow its course.

Was there a time in history when an enemy was invisible? Facing such danger it took a lot of courage, determination, transparency to bring about a global "coalition" and secure the world.

Françoise

"Economically the population of Attica fell again into three groups.
"At the top were the Eupatrids, who lived in relative luxury in the towns while slaves and hired men tilled their holdings in the country, or merchants made profits for them on their loans.
"Next in wealth were the demiurgoi, or public workmen -- i.e. professional men, craftsmen, traders, and free laborers. As colonization opened up new markets, and coinage liberated trade, the rising power of this class became the explosive force that under Solon and Peisistratus won for it a share in the government, and under Cleisthenes and Pericles raised it to the zenith of its influence. Most of the laborers were freemen. Slaves were as yet in the minority, even in the lower classes.
"Poorest of all were the georgoi, literally land workers, small peasants struggling against the stinginess of the soil and the greed of money-lenders and baronial lords, and consoled only with the pride of owning a bit of the earth."
Apparently class consciousness didn't begin "yesterday."

Robby

Are the people helpless? That's a profound question, Robby.

I think it is clear, the people have been used throughout history and there have been many times when they were helpless victims of a few strong men.

Today, in democratic countries, the people are not helpless.There is recourse and remedy, however,people tend to be gullible and very easily led. One problem is communication and another is the apparent remoteness of the effects of politics in one's daily life.

People are unaware of what government does and how it affects their lives. In the US only a small portion of the electorate votes. Communication is part of the problem. It's very difficult to discern what is happening in government. The press is not an unbiased reporter and television news is inadequate. It speaks in sound bites, cliches, and canned interviews designed to propagandize.

On the other hand, while there are problems reaching and involving a democratic electorate, the system is better than any other system of government I know. Of course that may be only a cop out. I'm afraid the response to the question is much larger than one post. It's a very big question, this question of the helplessness of the people, who may be an electorate. We have seen the people helpless to protect themselves again and again in history. Yet, there is hope. It springs eternal.

The Word of the Day for December 7 is:

omphaloskepsis \ahm-fuh-loh-SKEP-sis\ (noun)
: contemplation of one's navel as an aid to meditation;
also : indisposition to motion, exertion, or change

Example sentence:
Mystics of the Middle Ages practiced omphaloskepsis, believing that concentrating on a single focal point such as the navel would help them experience divine light and glory.

Did you know?
Greek mythology holds that Zeus released two eagles, one from the east and one from the west, and made them fly toward each other. They met at Delphi, and the spot was marked with a stone in the temple of the oracle there, a stone they named "omphalos," Greek for "navel" (it supposedly marked the center of the world). Mystics have been practicing omphaloskepsis for centuries, but it wasn't until the early 1920s that English speakers combined "omphalos" with another Greek term, "skepsis" (which means "examination," not "skepticism"), to create a word for studying one's own middle and thinking deeply.

Brought to you by Merriam-Webster, Inc.
http://www.Merriam-Webster.com

On another note, did you know that the name Paris is still used in Greece? My cousin married a handsome Greek bearing that first name.
Would anyone know if the town of Paris has the same origin?

I disgress. It is because the world seems so helpless these days. Bubble

Bubble - This French LINK will take you to the origins of LUTÈCE which later will become the city of Paris.

Celtic farmers and fishermen settled on that pretty island. If they only knew how their small island would eventually develop. Fish in the Seine river????

L'origine de Paris est ancienne. Dès l'époque des Celtes, un village de pêcheurs de la tribu des Parisii était établi sur les bords de la Seine et portait le nom de Lutèce.

Eloïse

I knew it was Lutece, but I had never heard of the Celtic Parisii tribe. "Asterix" mentions Lutece too.

Rob, Just to let everyone here know! Mal is still without power but all is well!

Continuing on from the fourth GREEN quote above:--

"Equality is unnatural. Where ability and subtlety are free, inequality must grow until it destroys itself in the indiscriminate poverty of social war. Liberty and equality are not associates but enemies.

"The concentration of wealth begins by being inevitable, and ends by being fatal. Plutarch said:--'The disparity of fortune between the rich and the poor had reached its height, so that Athens seemed to be in a truly dangerous condition, and no other means for freeing it from disturbances seemed possible but a despotic power.' The poor, finding their situation worse with each year -- the government and the army in the hands of their masters, and the corrupt course deciding every issue against them -- began to talk of a violent revolt, and a thoroughgoing redistribution of wealth.

"The rich, unable any longer to collect the debts legally due them, and angry at the challenge to their savings and their property, invoked ancient laws, and prepared to defend themselves by force against a mob that seemed to threaten not only property but all established order, all religion, and all civilization."

Durant lets the sociological side of him speak. Equality is unnatural? Liberty and equality are enemies? Concentration of wealth is inevitable? And ultimately fatal? The mob in Athens threatened religion and all civilization.

Any similarity to the French revolution in the 18th century? Any similarities to the Russian revolution in the 20th century? Any differences? Anything like that going on today? What is history teaching us?

Robby

Moxi:--Thank you for letting us know that our good friend Mal is well. I have passed this info on to other discussion groups.

Robby

Page 110: -- one more swing of the pendulum in the historical alternation between localized and centralized authority.

I have found myself pretty fed up in my own lifetime in listening to one faction want the 50 states to have all the power and only a token government in Washington to hold them together as a nation, versus those who want a strong central government to codify the laws, provide a strong national defense and national voice in the world, and enable citizens to find pretty much the same rules in moving from one state to another. I have kept thinking the question has already been settled, only to find again and again politicians popping up who firmly believe it has not!

Just as a footnote: I thought I had invented the simile of the swinging pendulum eons ago, but the Durants wrote this when I was too small to spell pendulum, much less own that philosophy. Just another small proof there is nothing new!

I did watch Visions of Greece on our PBS station Thursday night, and it was Heaven! Divine! Seriously, seeing Greece up close from the air is a dream come true. The Aegean is SO BLUE! They showed so very many of the places we are reading about. PBS paid to have this special film made themselves, and the video or DVD is not for sale, it can only be had with contributions to PBS. I could not afford the $100 to get one, so next time it is on I will tape it.

Seriously folks, this was indescribably gorgeous! Catch it if you can.

To think my focus at SENIORNET has been so limited as not to have found this discussion sooner. What an interesting discussion, even though our civilization as we know it seems to have a bleak future. Thanks to JANE DENEVE, who suggested I might be interested in the subject matter, I shall read the posts from the beginning unitl I think I have a worthwhile observation to share.

A warm welcome to our family here, Cliff! This is a serious discussion group and yet we have the time of our life. You will see this as you go along. If you want to go back to reading our comments on The Life of Greece from the very beginning, then go up to the Heading. Click onto "Part 1" which is just below my name.
However, I have an idea that as you continue to read the back and forth comments among us, you will want to give some thoughts of your own without waiting to read all the previous messages. Please do so. We don't want to wait a long period of time to hear from you again.
If you have a copy of Durant's "Life of Greece," then you will know what page we are reading by the GREEN quotes in the Heading which are periodically changed. If you don't have the book, these quotes will help by giving you a picture of what section we are discussing. From time to time I give excerpts of Durant's remarks. You will recognize these because they are in bold italicized type.
Our ground rules are simple --
1)- The usual courtesy and consideration expected in Senior Net.
2 - No prosylytizing of one's own religion.
3 - We often compare the times in Ancient Greece with current times, but we do not mention political names in today's news and thereby refrain from allowing this forum from becoming a political forum. It is a historical forum.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU WITH US!!

Robby

This is off topic but is currently being discussed in Canada The Romanow Report

Justin: I hope history does not repeat itself. Those that oppose the power of the presidency are being called 'soft on terrorism'. Legitimate disagreement is unpatriotic. Can the tide of votes be swung in the next election?

"The new GREEN quotes above move us on to another era, as described by Durant:--

"It seems incredible that at this juncture in Athenian affairs, so often repeated in the history of nations, a man should have been found who, without any act of violence or any bitterness of speech, was able to persuade the rich and the poor to a compromise that not only averted social chaos but established a new and more generous political and economic order for the entire remainder of Athens' independent career.

"Solon's father was a Eupatrid of puret blood, related to the descendants of King Codrus and, indeed, tracing his origin to Poseidon himself. His mother was cousin to the mother of Peisistratus, the dictator who would first violate and then consolidate the Solonian constitution.

"In his youth Solon participated lustily in the life of his time. He wrote poetry, sang the joys of 'Greek friendship,' and, like another Tyrtaeus, stirred the people with his verses to conquer Salamis. In middle age his morals improved in inverse ratio to his poetry. His stanzas became dull, and his counsel excellent. He tells us, 'Many undeserving men are rich while their betters are poor. But we will not exchange what we are for what they have, since the one gift abides while the other passes from man to man.'

"The riches of the rich 'are no greater than his whose only possessions are stomach, lungs and feet that bring him jon, not pain. The blooming charms of lad or maid, and an existence ever in harmony with the changing seasons of life.' Once, when a sedition occurred in Athens, he mained neutral, luckily before his own reputed legislation making such caution a crime.

"But he did not hesitate to denounce the methods by which the wealthy had reduced the masses to a despeate penury."

Robby

"Liberty and Equality are not associates but enemies." The Durants do come up with profound thoughts, don't they? Liberty and equality are in conflict in a free society.

When citizens of the US say they are equal under the constitution they mean they are equal before the law. But are we equal. We were not equal before the law in 1948 when the courts revisited Plessy vrs Ferguson. Under that ruling "separate but equal" was thought to be an ok concept. But as it turned out separateness did not bring equality. It brought inequality before the Law. Brown vrs Board of Ed. adjusted that concept to end separateness and thus bring equality before the law. It is arguable whether or not that ruling actually worked to produce equality before the law for all.

However, there is another social area in which equality is not expected. Americans do not have equal social skills and therefore cannot be expected to be equal. In this area of life inequality is the essence of liberty. The more free we are the less equal we are. Such is the nature of the beast and one must not expect equality in these conditions.

North Star; I hope so but do not feel confident it will happen.

I would prefer freedom to equality any time. A rich prisoner is still a prisoner.

So many wrongs can be disguised under these big names or concepts and used to further personal will against a certain strata of population. Bubble

Durant has stimulated some deep thoughts here on this subject. Anyone else?

Robby

Equality is the concept which brought about the French and the Russian Revolutions. The Durants mentioned "equality is the enemy of liberty" and I believe it because there is never total equality between men and women, between levels in social status, between countries. Equality does not really exist. There has always been levels and that is what produces growth in spite of its faults. So if equality does not produce liberty, then it is its enemy. The lower levels of society do not have liberty neither do poor countries being invaded by a rich ones. Liberty as Justin said is in the hands of the rich and powerful and especially today, they use it, or rather abuse of it to dominate. Those most likely able to change the inequalities have the least liberty to do so.

Eloïse

I just talked to Mal, finally. She is OK but cold! Her telephone line was down before and she is still without electricity. They hope it will be back by wednesday. She send regards to you all. Bubble

How Alwful Bubble, when we had a power failure during our ice storm I was without electricity only two days, but others in Quebec for two weeks. I hope she won't become sick with the cold. Could she not go anywhere until Wednesday?

I have finally satisfied for myself the concept of the difference between liberty and equality. Here in the county I live in, some parents wanted to gift their public schools with some amenities neither the county nor the state could afford. Things like enhanced athletic fields, better equiped gyms, more books for the libraries and more comfortable reading chairs in there, and the list goes on and on. There is a lot of wealth here, and they wanted to share it.

Great hue and cry from those whose schools were not included. THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED. Well, parents were, previously, at liberty to gift their public schools, but now they have passed laws that prohibit this largess. You see, they have decided all schools should be equal!

Ha! As if such could be legislated in any case! I, myself, was present and assisting when the Principal (she had no one else to send!) of one school in a poor minority section came to the school my daughter teaches in to haul off boxes and boxes of used reading books my daughter's school was discarding because they were switching to a newer system. All the best teachers vie to get into the schools in the more advantaged neighborhoods because the children there are more disciplined, politer, cleaner, and easier to teach. The schools in the better neighborhoods look better because the children themselves do not set out to destroy them and because the parents, through the P.T.O. and volunteerism, are all over the schools every day, helping out in every department. I know; I have been one of those parents and am now one of those great grandparents doing it. So far, I have put in 62 hours in one elementary school this year! In the poor neighborhoods, you cannot find a parent volunteer. They try, but the concept does not sell with the disadvantaged parents! Furthermore, the teachers in these schools come under our federal government's "Title One" rules (because the test scores of these schools do not meet the federal governments' goals), and they have reams and reams of additional paperwork to fill out so the bureaucrats will have more boxes of papers coming in for them to store away without ever reading. No teacher wants to take on this extra burden, so they use their seniority like mad to get to a school that does not come under "Title One" (because their scores are acceptable under the guidelines).

Bottom line, in my estimation, is that you cannot legislate EQUALITY, and anyone should be at LIBERTY to give to their public, taxpayer supported schools to whatever extent they so desire.

In my native Valley of Virginia, we have in Winchester, Virginia a totally endowed PUBLIC school in Handley High. Gorgeous! Pictured in National Geographic some years back as the most beautiful public high in America. Built on the lines of the University. (Oh Dear, what university, you ask! We only know of one where I come from! So take a guess.) Judge John Handley, who gave the school to the City, laid down that only children who lived in Winchester could attend. Otherwise, the school belongs to the taxpayers. No one has ever complained; at least, I have never heard anything except bragging.

No, we can never, ever legislate equality, no matter how well meant; so we should stop legislating to take away our liberty to give where our hearts are!

A number of us here had the pleasure of spending 13 months discussing deTocqueville's "Democracy in America." Please note the following:--

"Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude."

- - - Alexis deTocqueville

I don't feel that we are moving away from Life in Greece because if ever there was a concept attached to Ancient Greece, it is democracy -- especially as we approach the Solonian Revolution.

Robby

When I look at statements by the Durants, I remind myself that they lived in the first half of the twentieth century and being British, brought a certain cultural bias to their thinking. (like any cultural group, I guess)

"If we may believe Plutarch, Solon's father 'ruined his estate in doing benefits and kindnesses to other men.' Solon took to trade, and became a successful merchant with far-flung interests that gave him wide experience and travel. His practice was as good as his preaching, for he acquired among all classes an exceptional reputation for integrity.
"He was still relatively young -- forty four or forty-five -- when, in 594, representatives of the middle classes asked him to accept election nominally as archon eponymos, but with dictatorial powers to soothe the social war, establish a new constitution, and restore stability to the state.
"The upper classes, trusting to the conservatism of a moneyed man, reluctantly consented."
The plot thickens. A revolution is about to be born.

Robby

North Star: I was unaware the Durants were British. Ariel, I thought, was born in Russia at Prokurov and named Chaya Kaufman at birth. It seemed to me, she grew up on the streets of New York City. I am quite sure, Will, graduated from St Peter's College in Jersey City- a Jesuit institution of some renown.

Eloise: I don't think I said "liberty is in the hands of the rich and powerful". I suggest you reread the posting. Liberty in the US is in the hands of every citizen. But few Americans realize the prize is held precariously. One must exercise due dilligence to ensure that the precious prize is not denied even in cases where the results appear distastful or even painful. Liberty is not an easy prize to retain. Social equality is undesirable in a free society and that condition makes it possible for some to attain power and wealth if they choose. We hope the US is a land of opportunity and not a land in which liberty is controlled by the rich and powerful.

North Carolina where Mal lives rarely experiences snow and an ice storm is an extremely unusual event. Few people are prepared for such an eventuality.I hope Mal's daughter is around to help her. She could easily be chilled and become sick.

Every year I experience two perhaps three electrical outages.Some last as long as a week. But I am rarely exposed to cold and have the advantage of an auxiliary wood stove. Some places have auxiliary generators and are willing to take in old people who need help. The power companies maintain lists of such havens. If anyone is in touch with her you might pass this information along to her.

Justin you said: "In this area of life inequality is the essence of liberty. The more free we are the less equal we are. Such is the nature of the beast and one must not expect equality in these conditions."

You are right you didn't say, but I said "liberty is in the hands of the rich and powerful". because we only have total freedom and liberty if we have money. Sure we can vote, but that is not real freedom. Real freedom comes after one has had enough to eat and a decent place to sleep. A person living in poverty does not have either one. Of course democracy claims that opportunities are there for everyone, but only those who are very healthy and young can rise to the ultimate place where one can really say he/she, at last, is free to do as he/she pleases.

Eloïse

Eloise:--If one is free to do as he pleases, is that true freedom? What about the other person who disagrees? I believe it was one of the Supreme Court Justices who said:"Freedom ends at the end of the other person's nose." Wouldn't freedom on the part of everyone to do as he pleases lead to anarchy?

Robby

Robby

Update on Mal's situation. Her daughter has a fireplace, and the electric company has promised her power would return on Wednesday!

If the US was not considered "A land of opportunity" then why does every nation on earth have people wanting to come here? Is it because we have FREEDOM OF CHOICE? I think so.

Then Robby if that is so, there is no total freedom for anyone, is there. So why is that word bandied about? Perhaps "freedom of choice" is the only real freedom there is. Right on Moxie.

Freedom of choice? This is an important concept but it can be used at any time and in any place, not only the U.S. One of my favorite quotes is from Viktor Frankl, a WWII concentration camp survivor, who said that the camps could take all of a man's freedom, even that of his life, except for "the last of human freedoms, the freedom to choose one's attitude" in any given situation. So I'm not sure it's freedom of choice that made the U.S. attractive to other nations.

I know my grandparents came to the U.S. hoping for a better life not for themselves but for their future children and their children's children. Perhaps the attraction was the hope for better opportunity. When the rich utilize their liberty by supplementing public schools for their already privileged children (which is happening here in New Mexico if not all across the nation), and when they avoid the reponsibilities of citizenship by using the liberty of hiring attorneys to find tax-loopholes -- on and on with the liberty of the rich -- then the option of the poor is limited to an attitude of hope. (I don't even want to think of violent revolutions although we've seen that throughout history, up through modern times.) The U.S. myth is that there is the chance for a better life and this myth is sometimes true.

The U.S. depression of the 30's called for drastic measures like that facing Solon who searched for a balance in society rather than having the wide disparity between the very rich and the very poor. It returned hope to the poor. His measures were revolutionary but avoided destructive warfare. Man is a social animal and I think even the wealthy men accepted Solon's economic reforms to avoid shattering their society.

Robby, did I get too political? I'm thinking liberty has to be balanced with a respect for social conditions of all the citizens. And equality is not measured by wealth but by talent and intelligence and personal enlightenment.

Marvelle

Oliver Wendell Holmes tells us that in a free society we are not free to "yell fire in a crowded theatre." Some restrictions on freedom are to be tolerated. The first ten amendments to the constitution, known as the "Bill of Rights" spells out the bounds of freedom for US citizens. Complete freedom in the US does not exist. When individuals in a society have complete freedom the society is anarchic.

Within the bounds of the "Bill of Rights" one may exercise talent and skill in using resources (lots or few)to achieve as much as one can thus producing social inequality. It is the "rule of law" (The Bill of Rights) that encourages inequality in a free society.

Solon did what the Civil Rights movement achieved in the US. It gave the disadvantaged a leg up at the expense of other people's rights. That period in the US seems to be ending now after forty or fifty years.

Marvelle reminds us that "Solon searched for a balance in society rather than having the wide disparity between the very rich and the very poor. It returned hope to the poor. His measures were revolutionary but avoided destructive warfare."

Justin states that "Solon did what the Civil Rights movement achieved in the US. It gave the disadvantaged a leg up at the expense of other people's rights."

Durant continues about Solon:--

"His first measures were simple but drastic economic reforms. He disappointed the extreme radicals by making no move to redivide the land. Such an attempt would have meant civil war, chaos for a generation, and the rapid return of inequality. But by his famous Seisachtheia, or Removal of Burdens, Solon canceled, says Aristotle, 'all existing debts, whether owing to private persons or to the state' and at one blow cleared Attic lands of all mortgages. All persons enslaved or attached for debt were released. Those sold into servitude abroad were reclaimed and freed. And such enslavement was forbidden for the future.

"It was characteristic of humanity that certain of Solon's friends, getting wind of his intention to cancel debts, bought on mortgage large tracts of land, and later retained these without paying the mortgages. This, Aristotle tells us with a rare twinkle in his style, was the origin of many fortunes, that were later 'supposed to be of immemorial antiquity.' Solon was under suspicion of having connived at this and of having profited by it, until it was discovered that as a heavy creditor he himself had lost by his law.

"The rich protested unanswerably that such legislation was confiscation but within a decade opinion became almost unanimous that the act had saved Attica from revolution."

While we refrain from naming specific current political figures in this discussion group, it is almost impossible not to compare Solon's era with that of ours. However, isn't that one of the purposes of this forum? To examine antiquity in detail and, perhaps, to learn from that?

Robby

Solon's decrees remind me of the laws in ancient Judea. During the Jubilee Year, every fifty years, debts were forgiven, slaves freed and land returned to those who had lost it for various reasons. So different cultures could recognize inequalities and find some sort of regulations to set their worlds straight again.

North Star:--Does a variation of that exist in Israel today?

Robby

By now, I have given up finding a copy of Durant, unless someone unloads a new set in a garage sale.

May I recommend a modern book that brings into sharp focus the impact of Greece on the modern world as seen through the lens of nineteenth century German academia. It is "The Closing of the American Mind", Alan Bloom. He in turn focuses on Thomas Mann's "Death in Venice" as the key example.

You may still find one, Tejas. We have only just begun Life of Greece. In the meantime, the GREEN quotes above will let you know in which section of Durant's book we are in.

Robby

No Robby. Those were the good old days. Equalizing wealth seemed to work then but it wouldn't work now.

Tejas: Bloom's work makes a worthwhile contribution to our understanding of the educated American mind. His discusion of Toqueville, for example, invites addional discusion as does much of the Closing of the American Mind. The members of the Senior Net book group have read Toqueville and considered his opinions in some depth. That project was successful so I think there probably are many senior net members who would enjoy reading Bloom's work as a joint project. If you propose it, I will join the project.

Today Robby, a new elected president can pardonned prisonners at his discretion, except those who worked agains the security of the country.

I am a little bit behind, but find there are things to be commented upon. Page 111: the competition of imported food kept the prices of his products low, while the prices of the manufactured articles that he had to buy were determined by forces beyond his control, and rose inexplicably with every decade. A bad year ruined many farmers.

Isn't this exactly what is going on now? Our small farmers are going bust and quitting in droves, and huge conglomerates here, plus other nations, are supplying our food.

Page 112: Isn't it Draco's code from which we derive the term "Draconian measures?"

According to everything decribed about the social order here, we are approaching a time of being ripe for revolution again in our own society!

Now I will read and discover what the Durants mean on Page 113, where they say: Solon's peaceful revolution is one of the encouraging miracles of history. Intriguing choice of words!

Thanks, MaryPage, for all these thoughts that Durant brings to your mind. Any comments on how Solon can help us with our curent problems?

Robby

"Athens, unlike Sparta, was a money-mad commercial city. The constitution written by Solon mitigated the class struggle between rich and poor, and allowed for the growth of democratic institutions."

SOLON

Interesting:"Nevertheless it shows a lack of judgment and courage to avoid having good things because we are afraid of losing them. Even our virtue, which is by far our most valuable possession, can be lost through sickness or drugs. The soul has an innate tendency of affection, and when it cannot fix itself on a child it seeks some other object, and grief comes just the same. When a dog dies, or a horse, smug bachelors collapse in sorrow, but some fathers can bear the loss even of a child without extravagant grief."

Eloïse

Thank you, Eloise, for that wonderful link to Solon. It tells us more about Solon, the man that he was.

Robby

"Solon prefaced his historic decrees with an act of amnesty freeing or restoring all persons who had been jailed or banished for political offenses short of trying to usurp the government. He went on to repeal, directly or by implication, most of Draco's legislation The law concerning murder remained. It was in itself a revolution that the laws of Solon were applied without distinction to all freemen. Rich and poor were now subject to the same restraints and the same penalties.
"Recognizing that these reforms had been made possible by the support of the mercantile and industrial classes and signified their accession to a substantial share in the government, Solon divided the free population of Attica into four groups according to their wealth.
"First, the pentacosiomedimmi, or five-hundred-bushel men, whose annual income reached five hundred measures of produce, or the equivalent thereof.
"Second, the hippes, whose income was between three and five hundred measures.
"Third, the zeugitai, with incomes between two and three hundred measures. And fourth, the thetes, all other freemen.
"Honors and taxes were determined by the same rating, and the one could not be enjoyed without paying the other. Furthermore, the first class was taxed on twelve times, the second class on ten times, the third class on only five times, the amount of its annual income. The property tax was in effect a graduated income tax. The fourth class was exempt from direct taxation.
"Only the first class was eligible to the archonship or to military commands. The second class was eligible to lower offices and to the cavalry. The third was privileged to join the heavy-armed infantry. The fourth was expected to provide the common soldiers of the state. This peculiar classification weakened the kinship organization upon which the oligarchy had rested its power, and established the new principle of 'timocracy' -- government by honor or prestige as frankly determined by taxable wealth.
"A similar 'plutocracy' prevailed, throughout the sixth and part of the fifth century, in most of the Greek colonies."
Any thoughts here regarding plutocracy vs democracy?
Robby

For everyone's information, please note the following post by Marcie:--

"Marcie Schwarz - 08:29pm Dec 10, 2002 PST (#848 of 849) SeniorNet Director of Education Delete button

fyi, everyone. We are working on the system so that the Delete button that each person sees next to his or her posts will work like the Edit button and will only appear for 30 minutes after the post is made.

It is disconcerting when individuals remove their posts in a discussion long after they were made, usually because of hurt feelings.

If anyone wants to have a post removed that you have made and subsequently regret for any reason (after 30 minutes), please email marcie@seniornet.org"

Democracy, like everything else, evolved. It wasn't suddenly there one day but not the day before. People had to experiment with different combinations of circumstances to achieve it. Even today democracies are different depending on the culture and people's needs.

A good point, North Star. There are nations which swear that they are democracies and we are appalled at their system of government.

Robby

There is much evidence of the significance of plutocrats in Democractic countries today.The plutocrat has not gone away. He has the same rights as everyone else but he seems to buy more influence with his wealth. Public office in a democracy is very often occupied by a plutocrat because the plutocrat has the money to advertise himself as a qualified candidate and to disparage opponents. The end result is a democracy with plutocratic control of power. The plutocrat's money works for him because in the US the electorate is not smart enough or not concerned enough to object to rule by plutocrats, worthy or not.

The 21st century has disturbing elements influencing Democracies that the ancients didn't have. They didn't have to face the global concerns. Today a decision in America influences the politics of the entire globe, so even if we say that history repeats itself it is only because humans beings remain the same.

Today there is television, telephone and computer technology. Satellites, space travel and missiles. Nuclear weapons and energy. Multinationals. Global warming. Overpopulation. Medical breakthroughs. Genetically modified crops. Insecticides and pesticides.

Scientific advances are getting ahead of human capacity to cope with the problems that they bring.

Who will come and put order in all that now?

Eloïse

Justin - I would like very much to propose such a group. How does one go about it. I have spent years at the University of Chicago, and some weeks at Cornell, two of the campuses in focus in that book. He mentions that 1776 and all that was very much a product of the Enlightenment, a cabal set up use science to seize control of the state. They quote Plato and Machiavelli, but the image they had very much in mind was the Ching dynasty. By the way, Enlightenment is a rough translation of ching. The Jesuits in China had pointed such a rosy picture of government by scholars that Europe thought they would have a go at it.

Tejas:--If you are talking about forming what you call a "group" on SN, you would do that by emailing Marcie, Director of Education.

Robby

"Persistent idleness was made a crime, and no man who lived a life of debauchery was permitted to address the Assembly. Solon legalized and taxed prostitution, established public brothels licensed and supervised by the state, and erected a temple to Aphrodite Pandemos from the revenues.
"He enacted the un-Draconian penalty of a hundred drachmas for the violation of a free woman, but anyone who caught an adulterer in the act was allowed to kill him there and then. He limited the size of dowries, wishing the marriages should be contracted by the affection of mates and for the rearing of children. With childlike trustfulness he forbade women to extend their wardrobes beyond three suits. He was asked to legislate against bachelors, but refused, saying that after all 'a wife is a heavy load to carry.'
"He made it a crime to speak evil of the dead, or to speak evil of the living in temples, courts, or public offices, or at the games. But even he could not tie the busy tongue of Athens, in which, as with us, gossip and slander seemed essential to democracy.
"He laid it down that those who remained neutral in seditions should lose their citizenship, for he felt that the indifference of the public is the ruin of the state. He condemned pompous ceremonies, expensive sacrifices, or lengthy lamentations at funerals, and limited the goods that might be buried with the dead.
"He established the wholesome law -- a source of Athenian bravery for generations -- that the sons of those who died in war should be brought up and educated at the expense of the government."
Lots and lots to comment on here!! Perhaps some of you lurkers might have some views on Solon's legislation.

Robby

The Durants call Solon's setting up of courts made up of equal numbers of citizens from each class to hear appeals to rulings of the magistrates the wedge and citadel of Athenian democracy.

They go on to call this legislation the most important in Athenian history.

I find it interesting also that Solon made it a crime to speak evil of the dead. In fact, this fascinates me, as I am wondering if this, ingrained in many today, starts here. I also enjoyed the Durants' comment he made no claim that a god had given him these laws. Well, that's refreshing! Religious and political hucksters without any moral embarrassment are still standing up and having the temerity to make this claim today! Always makes me want to confront them with a dozen or more questions regarding their personal pipelines to the Almighty! Go Solon!

I am really missing MAL! Any news of her?

Mary Page - no news from Mal as of this morning. We are all hoping for the best.

As soon as someone limits the wardrobes of women, he's in trouble!

I am intrigued by the moral and ethics and manners legislation Solon put in. Only in a small population could this work. Our massive and ponderous federal and state legistlation takes on few moral questions and I dont know of any regarding ethics and manners such as how many suits to buy or speaking evil of the dead and living too in certain places..regarding morals perhaps abortion laws are our nearest legislation to the type of thing Solon legislated.and it is a constant fight to legislate the morals and ethics regarding that question..( Though crimes are immoral I am not thinking of the ususal murder, theft, assults etc crimes.)In recent times we have had some law suits regarding pornography which could be an ethical question and of course the laws regarding prostitution are moral questions and everyone has them, for or against. What I am think is that the ethics laws only work for the people who are ethical in themselves and their families. If they are not they disregard these laws. I bet many ladies had more than three suits too.

There is a lot to think about regarding Solons legislation. fr

84 messages in here. I had to skip to last. The following I wrote in my word processor because I wasn't able to get online earlier this afternoon. I wanted to get it down while I had it in my mind. Thanks to all of you who thought about me. I appreciate it, and I appreciate all of you.

I feel as if I’d just come from another kind of civilization.

A week ago yesterday there was a severe ice storm in North Carolina. Falling branches and tree limbs knocked power lines down, and over a million people were without electricity. You probably saw this on TV. What you didn’t see were people like my daughter Dorian, her partner Jim and me.

The power in this house went out at about 3 a.m. Wednesday, Dec. 4th. Just after 2 p.m. today, Thursday, December 12th, the electricity came back on. That’s just about seven days and a half without electricity.

My daughter and Jim immediately went out with her chain saw to saw up tree limbs for firewood for the fireplace in the main house. The saw needed a chain, so the first day they sawed wood by hand and split it. It was dangerous to be out there because frozen branches were still falling off trees. The second afternoon was better because the temperature warmed up a little. Frost melted, and the trees were less danger. Jim went out and was lucky enough to get a chain for the saw. Dorian had bought food, much of which had to be thrown away as time went on. She cooked in the fireplace, and we had at least one hot item every single day.

There was no heat in this apartment. The first day after the storm I was all right, but the second day I was cold. That night the temperature was 17 degrees F. Two shirts, a heavy fleece sweater, a woolen cape, heavy pants, knitted gloves, two pairs of knee socks and two hats, that’s what I wore the third day when it was 38 degrees in here. Saturday Dorian was able to find a small propane heater for me. It worked for a while and then quit. Sunday the cold was giving me a good deal of pain. In between sawing and splitting wood, Dorian and Jim went out and hunted for and found a kerosene heater for me. From then on, I had more heat in here than they did in the main house from the fireplace. The bulk of each day was spent sawing wood and doing what was necessary for survival by them. They’re heroes, as far as I am concerned.

During this time of no electricity, I have read two books using a flashlight and written a chapter and a half on my own book and listened to reports and music on the radio every hour I was awake. I never realized before how many Beethoven Sonatas I have played or how much music I know.

Earlier this week the upper part of this country street had electricity. We began to have hope. Duke Power had changed its estimate of 100% restoration of power from yesterday (Wednesday) to Saturday. A neighbor discovered what was wrong with our part of the street. Two transformers had blown in the neighborhood, and someone with a generator to provide electricity for his house was somehow heating up the lines so power could not be turned on. This afternoon we finally had electricity.

We are lucky that we did not have a well with an electric pump, and had water throughout this time. We are also luckier than some who brought charcoal grills in their houses for heat and suffered carbon monoxide poisoning and that we had the means to prevent hypothermia. Schools were opened for shelters; the National Guard was called in, and people offered each other a great deal of help.

We learned that one must keep more than enough batteries on hand. A battery operated radio is a necessity. Non-perishable food should be kept on hand at all times. Fireplaces and chimneys should be checked regularly. A supply of medicine and first aid supplies should be in everyone’s house. In times of crisis, attention should be paid to what is said on the radio, and chances should not be taken. Use common sense, and do not ever get in your car in a closed garage and turn the heater on to stay warm. Two men who did this died.

There is no time when there’s no electricity, just daytime and night-time. Plenty of time to think. I kept wondering how in the world did the civilizations we read about do what they did. I also kept thinking about how dependent we are on electricity and the fossil fuel that provides it.

I’ve been through several hurricanes in my life, including one here (Fran). People are saying the damage done by the recent ice storm we had is worse than damage done in that storm. The day after Hurricane Fran, my daughter went out with her chain saw and helped neighbors clear this street, so ambulances could get through if necessary. I’ve been through blizzards -- was stuck in a car for eight hours once in a blizzard just outside Erie, Pennsylvania. That was when people who lived near the highway opened their houses and took us stranded motorists in. We were rescued then by the Pennsylvania National Guard. I lived alone in Massachusetts in 1978 when the blizzard was so bad that the governor closed all the roads in the state for a week. I’ve seen a lot, including this experience.

If you tell me Americans are soft, I’ll tell you we’re not. I have the past seven and a half days as proof.

Faith, you say:--"I am intrigued by the moral and ethics and manners legislation Solon put in. Only in a small population could this work."
Are you saying that a small city or a county, for example, could legislate morals and make it work?

Robby

Mal, you posted just about the same time that I did. But I would guess that all of us found your comments more intriguing than those of Durant. We are all so pleased that you are back and give kudos to your heroes, Dorian and Jim, for their hard work given with love. How ironic, as you indicated, that the life you lived this past week was similar to the life led in the civilizations we are examining.

Robby

Tribal Taboos were the same as legistated laws and they concerned not just high crimes like murder and theft but moralistic laws regarding lies, adultry, incest,fornicating, then there were ethical laws to guide people in money dealings, property and ownership matters, proper etiquette, ie: a son in law must not look in his mother in laws face. and probably this was the place where bowing rules were made and smiling rules, rules regarding cleanliness and sanitation etc. and yes it worked in small societies. It is still where ethics and morals are best taught-in a small group such as family, then a congregation of a church, then a small village or town. Get much bigger than that and you beginning having problems, except in the matter of high crimes and treason. fr

Mal I am so glad to hear you survived that week or more and how you and your daughter and her friend made it through those trying days. Yes I agree with you, when I was living in the mountains we had no electricity at all for winter use I often thought I was still luckier than historical days.. Usually it went off in November with the first storms, in our part of town and was not restored until March sometime. This was in the thirties of course and many homes were not even electrified at that time.. Therefore we had big wood ranges and also we always stocked staples and canned food as far ahead as we could. We had heaters and oil heaters too with stock piles of wood and coal .We had karosene and gas lannterns, candles and were very use to not having electricity. But we did have indoor water taps that would freeze up and we would melt snow and also carry water from an outside tap that was working.We had an outhouse for emergency use too so that water was no problem.Yet I was thinking that I am counting up the things we had to simulate "the comforts of electricity." I too, am thinking of those people 2000+ years ago and wondering at their life style. I imagine it was much like my great grand mother said when she told us that we should be in bed at dark and up with the light as it cost a pretty penny to burn those lanterns.Any way so glad to hear from you about your adventure.Faith

Mal: Welcome back from the "great southern chill of 2002". All the warmth in our hearts went out to you. I am surprised you not get enough to keep warm. Your experince gives us some idea of the value of electricity.

Tejas: Robbie is most knowledgeable about how to go about forming a group to discuss any particular book. E mail Marcie, the guiding light for SN. I think we need a leader and three others to launch a project. I pulled Bloom off my shelf, dusted it off, and found a letter in the pages I had thought lost years ago.

Some Solonic rulings have questionable value. Any politician who legislates the number of dresses a woman may possess is lucky to remain in power.

Neutrality in the presence of sedition ruins the state and loss of citizenship may be the most practical penalty. We call these people in the US the "silent majority".

Solon advocated government sponsored education for the sons of warriors killed in war. The US government does the same. The sons of our dead war heros are entitled to an appointment to one of the military academies if they can otherwise qualify.

Legalized and taxed prostitution makes a great deal of sense for the state and it's citizenry. The government makes money for the public welfare, venereal disease is controlled, and the industry can be regulated by the state so that the abuses common to the practice can be mitigated.

"In 572, at the age of sixty-six, and after serving as archon for twenty-two years, Solon retired from office into private life. Having bound Athens, through the oath of its officials, to obey his laws unchanged for ten years, he set out to observe the civilizations of Egypt and the East.
"It was now, apparently that he made his famous remark -- 'I grow old while always learning.' At Heliopolis, says Plutarch, he studied Egyptian history and thought under the tutelage of the priests. From them, it is said, he heard of the sunken continent Atlantis, whose tale he told in an infinished epic which two centuries later would fascinate the imaginative Plato.
"From Egypt he sailed to Cyprus and made laws for the city that in his honor changed its name to Soli. Herodotus and Plutarch describe with miraculous memory his chat at Sardis with Croesus, the Lydian king. How this paragon of wealth, having arrayed himnself in all his paraphernalia, asked Solon did he not account him, Croesus, a happy man. How Solon, with Greek audacity, replied:--
"The uncertain future has yet to come, with every possible variety of fortune. Him only to whom the divinity has continued happiness unto the end do we call happy. To salute as happy one that is still in the midst of life and hazard we think as little safe and conclusive as to crown and proclaim as victorious the wrestler that is yet in the ring."
"Croesus was dethroned by Cyrus in 546, and knew the bitterness of remembering in his misery, the happy time of his splendor, and the stern warning of the Greek.
"And Solon, returning to Athens to die, saw in his last years the overthrow of his constitution, the establishment of a dictatorship, and the apparent frustration of all his work."
Doesn't this give us all pause to think?

Robby

Mal, welcome back and it is a scary thing to go withing electricity. Our house is heated only by that. The last time it happened the army stepped in, but I only slept away from home two days.

"'I grow old while always learning.'" So true.

It strikes me the most important thing we have learned about Solon is that his time marks the beginning of government by written and permanent law. Now, if that is not a Big marker in the calendar of the human race, I don't know what is!

The Durants sure give us a lot of philosophical food to digest. How about this passage: the only political freedom capable of enduring is one that is so pruned as to keep the rich from denuding the poor by ability or subtlety and the poor from robbing the rich by violence or votes. Wow!

SOLON'S CONSTITUTION

Those of you who know who I am know how very much I enjoy this discussion I appreciate it as much as or possibly more than you who are dedicated contributors A huge part of that enjoyment stems from Mal's contributions.I have just learned that her electricity has been restored and that she ha been returned to us.

Today the sun is shining brightly here and the birds are singing and I find myself watching for the leaves to start appearing on the trees. Foolish? Not really. That shows how much pleasure you give to those of us who chiefly lurk.(I wish someone would come up with a better word-lurking sounds so voyeuristic).

Welcome back Mal. The song that instantly and unbidden popped onto my head was "Lulu,s

Don't have a clue about whathappened there. The song is a very old one but Mal remembers or knows of every song ever written will know this one--"Lulu's Back InTown"

Hank

As was indicated earlier, one doesn't jump instantaneosly from monarchy to democracy. In this forum, we have been watching how the thousands of years passed -- from monarchy to monarchy to monarchy to monarcy. What passes through the minds of men like Solon? Does he lie awake at night and talk to himself?
"Hm-m-m, let's see. What shall I do tomorrow. I know what I'll do. I'll create a democracy. For thousands of years subjects have bowed to the will of a monarch. I don't like that idea. I think the people themselves should run the show. I will now bring two or three millenia to an end. My idea is much better."
After all, Solon was the descendent along with millions of other people of monarchical civilizations. What might have brought such a revolutionary thought to his mind? To me the genius of it all was not his bringing this idea to fruition but creating it in the first place.

Robby

I assume that everyone here checks the GREEN quotes in the Heading regularly and so knows that we have moved onto Durant's next section:--

"As in the passionate days of the French Revolution, three parties struggled for power -- the 'Shore,' led by the merchants of the ports who favored Solon -- the 'Plain,' led by the rich landowners, who hated Solon -- and the 'Mountain,' a combination of peasants and town laborers who still fought for a redistribution of the land. Like Pericles a century later, Peisistratus, though an aristocrat by birth and fortune, manners and tastes, accepted the leadership of the commons.

"At a meeeting of the Assembly he displayed a wound, claiming that it had been inflicted upon him by the enemies of the people, and asked for a bodyguard.

"Solon protested. Knowing the subtlety of his cousin, he suspected that the wound has been self-inflicted, and that the bodyguard would open the way to a dictatorship. He warned:--'Ye men of Athens, I am wiser than some of you, and braver than others. Wiser than those of you who do not perceive the treachery of Peisistratus, and braver than those who are aware of it, but out of fear hold their peace.'

"Nevertheless the Assembly voted that Peisistratus should be allowed a force of fifty men. Peisistratus collected four hundred men instead of fifty, seized the Acropolis, and declared a dictatorship.

"Solon, having published to the Athenians his opinion that 'each man of you , individually, walketh with the tread of a fox, but collectively ye are geese,' placed his arms and shield outside his door as a symbol of resigning his interest in politics, and devoted his last days to poetry."

Robby

Athenian Democracy

Note the last paragraph speaking of the Death of Athenian Democracy in 431-401 BC.

Eloïse

#261: When you word it that way, Robby, that jumping from monarchy to democracy is a sea change in thinking, I realize how great it is. They moved from the known to the unknown in terms of governing. Now there are all kinds of systems and some work for a while or not, but we are used to trying different types of governments. There's even differences in democracy depending on which political party has power.

Good to see you back, Mal. People should also have extra fuel for their Coleman stoves as well as supplies of canned goods and other essentials. Paranoid person that I am, I have granola bars and extra blankets in the car in winter even though I don't drive out of the city.

Nice to have you back, Mal.

Solon's laws were applied without distiction to all freemen, rich and poor who were now subject to the same restraints and the same penalties. Here we have the essence of democracy- control by the rule of law and it's application equally to one and all, rich and poor.

There will always be those, who by cleverness are able to take full advantage of the rule of law but in principle the laws apply equally to one and all. This element of equality before the law is the essence of the American democracy. I think the rule is equally so in the English court system which is the basis of American court practice

The ekklesia is an added bump in the democratic process but because all citizens may join and participate in deliberations and because it's function is to elect the Archon from among those chosen by the Areopogus, this body can be compared well to the American electorate. The Greeks selected and elected one from many. The US party system selects one from each party who compete for the top job. The electorate choses one. The Areopogus selects several. The ekklesia choses one.

The ekklesia also functions as our congress in that both have the right to question officials, impeach them, punish them and debar them from future governmental roles.

Here we have the roots of the US constitution. The men who met in Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, prior to 1789 were educated men who had examined the Greek forms as well as the English parliamentary system. They knew what they were doing because others had done it before them. They picked and chose and found the right combination.

"Peisistratus could fight ruthlessly, and readily forgive. He could move in the foremost currents of the thought of his time, and govern without the intellectual's vacillation of purpose and timidity of execution.
"He was mild of manner, humane in his decision, and generous to all. 'His administration,' says Aristotle, 'was temperate, and showed the statesman rather than the tyrant.' He made few reprisals upon regenerate enemies, but he banished irreconcilable opponents, and distributed their estates among the poor. He improved the army and built up the fleet as security against external. But he kept Athens out of war, and maintained at home, in a city so recently disturbged by class hostility, such order and content that it was common to say that he had brought back the Golden Age of Cronus' reign."
So what do we have here? A benign despot? An iron hand in a velvet glove? Was he for the people -- and, if so, which people?

Robby

Use of the term "Archon Basileus" is an interesting one. Those of us who read and discussed Les Peregrines discovered that the Byzantine ruler of Constantinople and environs was called "Basileus". The term is evidently Greek and is used to describe a head of state. There was some concern in that discussion about the Greek influence in the Crusade movement of the eleventh century. We have learned how wide spread the Greeks were in the Mediteranean area. They were apparently still in posession of much Mediteranean territory as late as the Tenth Century CE.

Anacharsis, the friend of Solon laughed at the new constitution. He said, "No lasting justice can be established for men, since the strong or clever will twist to their advantage any laws that are made; the law is a spider's web that catches the little flies and lets the big bugs escape. It is not difficult to find the significance of that comment in the US. We have only to examine the roster of our prisons to see all the little flies the law has caught in it's net. The other side of the comment is also readily available. We are well aware of the football player who may have murdered his wife and boyfriend and through the efforts of his clever lawyer was able to find a favorable verdict.

Athens became the commercial leader of the Mediterranean. The new aristocracy of wealth put a premium upon intelligence rather than birth. It was the feudal system that followed the decline of Rome that put an end to the premium on intelligence and substituted birth and nobility for the leadership role. The premium on birth lasted in some European countries until after the First World War. Had the premium on intelligence lasted until today I wonder how much farther along the path of human progress the race of man would be?

"Like Augustus, Peisistratus knew how to adorn and support dictatorship with democratic concessions and forms. Archons were elected as usual, and the Assembly and the popular courts, the Council of Four Hundred and the Senate of the Areopagus met and functioned as before, except that the suggestions of Peisistratus found a very favorable hearing. When a citizen accused him of murder, he appeared before the Senate and offered to submit to trial but the complainant decided not to press the charge.
"Year by year the people, in inverse proportion to their wealth, became reconciled to his rule. Soon they were proud of him, at last fond of him. Probably Athens had needed, after Solon, just such a man as Peisistratus -- one with sufficient iron in his blood to beat the disorder of Athenian life into a strong and steady form, and to establish by initial compulsion those habits of order and law which are in a society what the bony structure is to an animal -- its shape and strength, though not its creative life.
"When, after a generation the dictatorship was removed, these habits of order and the framework of Solon's constitution remained as a heritage for democracy. Peisistratus, perhaps not knowing it, had come not to destroy the law but to fulfill it."
Apparently familiarity does not breed contempt. If we eat a strange food often enough, we may get to like it.
Robby

Justin - What kind of intelligence are you referring to? I am pretty sure it is not only academic intelligence because there are other kinds and how can an intelligent person be not tempted to use it to reach the highest level of wealth as well as the highest office in government and in so doing removing everything standing in its path.

I am thinking are not wealthy people in a Democrary responsible for globalization and are they not influencing governments in increasing their wealth? I am wondering if integrity plus intelligence would not be a better combination of qualities to advance the human race.

Eloïse

I have been musing about citizens being chosen by lot to serve in the council. Huh! They had to be at least 30 years old. Reasonable. Only served one year. Could be good. Could not serve more than twice. Excellent.

So think about the what ifs here. Suppose our congress, our House of Representatives, were elected this way. The lobbyists would not know which of thousands, if not millions, would be chosen to serve. Ergo, they could not line their pockets in advance! There would be no campaign contributions! Not from you, not from me, not from a political party, not from special interests, not from the crooks! Hey, smelling good!

Sure, there would be the incompetents. But you know what? We already have those being elected. In droves!

We get chosen by lot now to serve on juries. And we are rather fond of our jury system. Well, okay, I am not overly fond of it. I am in the minority which prefers the European system of panels of judges in many areas. But that is another story; here we are currently using juries chosen by lot from the franchised, and it works. At least, it works rather better than our congress does! (Again, my opinion.)

On the whole, I really do see a congress chosen by lot as a vast improvement over our present arrangement. Corruption Rules, and I would dearly love to take their goodies away with one huge tug of the tablecloth!

Chosen by lot, we would have more women, more minorities (have you noticed some want to put women in among the minorities, but I say no! We are the majority numerically in this country, and to lump us in with minorities would be to obscure that fact.), all types of careers, more of a religious mix, etc. It could be treated like being called up by the National Guard; i.e., your employer would have to keep your job for you. However, the Federal government would pay you. Think about That! For most, it would be a humongous pay raise! And none of the strain of running for office!

And I am wondering if the advancement of the human race is based on the backs of the poor so to speak. The rift between integrity and intelligence is not only in those who have wealth. Those who have wealth attain it because of those who labor for them.

Yes, but . . . . aren't prospective jurors who are chosen by lot screened before they are allowed to sit on a jury? If we chose our legislators that way, who would do the screening?

It seems to me that using the Lot System would leave too much to chance. Rather than that, why don't we take all the lobbyists out and shoot them with a stun gun, the effect of which would be that their memory of lobbying disappeared? That's as good a solution as some I've heard.

These rich guys we mention -- weren't at least some of them poor when they started out?

There was someone who said the single word which describes life is Reciprocity. If I work hard to better myself and my lot in life and make a few million bucks along the way, I think that's all right. No doubt I'd think it was reciprocation for what I'd done.

Distribution of wealth is another thing. So is Socialism. Most people don't seem to think that Socialism is a good idea. Was Peisistratus's reign in any way socialistic, I wonder? Guess I'll go and try to find out.

Mal

Eloise: My reference to intelligence had nothing to do with academia. The comparison was intellect vrs birth as a qualification for public office. "Ability" is an equally useful word in this contrast. Integrity is a third dimension. From the looks of Peisistratus the Greeks had as much trouble with integrity as we have.

Choosing Congressional representatives by lot is an interesting postulate. These fellows are supposed to be the "people". The conressional composition reflects most of the characteristics evident in the population. While felons are removed from the electorate they manage to creep into the Congress.

When representatives are chosen by popular election, one makes the assumption that not only is the chosen one like all his fellows but that he also has the ability to represent his fellows well and that he has integrity. Those assumtions cannot be made if the representative is chosen by lot.

Would lobbyists disappear if representatives were chosen by lot? I don't think so. The lobbyist curries favor and he pays for it. Life for the chosen one can still be made very sweet in return for favors.

I would not be surprised if choice of representative by lot were not considered at the Philadelphia meetings. The Federalist papers should contain references to that argument if it were made.

"Dictatorships were brought on by the pathological concentration of wealth, and the inability of the wealthy to agree on a compromise. Forced to choose, the poor, like the rich, love money more than political liberty, and the only political freedom capable of enduring is the one that is so pruned as to keep the rich from denuding the poor by ability or subtlety and the poor from robbing the rich by violence or votes.
"The road to power in Greek commercial cities was simple -- attack the aristocracy, defend the poor, and come to an understanding with the middle classes. Arrived at power, the dictator abolished debts, or confiscated large estates, taxed the rich to finance public works, or otherwise redistributed the overconcentrated wealth. While attaching the masses to himself through such measures, he secured the support of the business community by promoting trade with state coinage and commercial treaties, and by raising the social prestige of the bourgeoisie.
"Forced to depend upon popularity instead of hereditary power, the dictatorships for the most part kept out of war -- supported religion -- maintained order -- promoted morality -- favored the higher status of women -- encouraged the arts -- and lavished revenues upon the beautification of their cities. And they did all these things, in many cases, while preserving the forms and procedures of popular government, so that even under despotism the people learned the ways of liberty.
"When the dictatorship had served to destroy the aristocracy, the people destroyed the dictatorship. Only a few changes were needed to make the democracy of freemen reality as well as a form."
Interesting sequence of events -- the dictatorship destroyed the aristocracy and the people then destroyed the dictatorship. Is this happening anywhere in the world today? Even if the "poor love money more than political liberty?"

Robby

Quoting from Robby:

Interesting sequence of events -- the dictatorship destroyed the aristocracy and the people then destroyed the dictatorship. Is this happening anywhere in the world today? Even if the "poor love money more than political liberty?"

A nice description of the "Avarice of Man".

Faithr - sumptuary legislation, that about limiting ladies wardrobes, is a fight that has been going on since time begin. There is a recent book on the subject by Thorstein Veblen, once the most popular writer in the country circa 1910 "The Theory of the Leisure Class".

In our history, property taxes were orignially imposed occrding to the number of rooms in the house. That is why there were no closets in colonial times, clothes were kept in a piece of furniture called a wardrobe.

"The poor, like the rich, love money more than political liberty...." I don't believe that statement can be used to say that the poor are the same in their souls as the rich. With poor people, any money they can gather adds to their survival. With rich people, more money means more power over others. In addition, I don't believe for an instant that intelligence is the gateway to wealth. If you're intelligent you are a thinking animal and if you think, you may question unscrupulous actions. It's the desire for power that is the gateway to wealth. "Greed is good" has been the motto throughout the centuries amongst the rich and the wannabe rich.

In the best of worlds, it would be heart-and-head that runs a nation rather than the cold power of money. And that famous football player wasn't intelligent, just rich. That's why he had the power to hire someone who got him out of a double murder conviction.

Marvelle

Tejas, until very very recently our property and municipality taxes were according to number of rooms. Now they changed it to superficy because people used to build fewer rooms, get their permits and then they added removable plaster walls inside to create new non-declared rooms! There is always a way around...

Dictatorship, democracy, social or security unrest, and it starts all over again. It seems we go round and round endlessly. Even with chosen representation, free elections, once on the "throne" the ones at the top change their tune (or show their true colors?) to what is best for them and their cronies first. To me it is a vicious circle with no way out. Just the power of wealth and money. Bubble

More and more thoughts and reactions occurring here. GREAT! Durant continues:--

"When Peisistratus died, in 527, he left his power to his sons. His wisdom had survived every test except that of parental love. Hippias gave promise of being a wise ruler, and for thirteen years continued the policies of his father. Hipparchus, his younger brother, was harmlessly, though expensively, devoted to love and poetry. It was at his invitation that Anacreon and Simonides came to Athens.

"The Athenians were not quite pleased to see the leadership of the state pass down without their consent to the young Peisistratids. Nevertheless Athens was prosperous, and the quiet reign of Hippias might have gone on to a peaceful close had it not been for the unsmooth course of true Greek love.

"Aristogeiton, a man of middle age, had won the love of the young Harmodius, then, says Thucydides, 'in the flower of youthful beauty.' But Hipparechus, equally careless of gender, also solicited the lad's love. When Aristogeiton heard of this, he resolved to kill Hipparchus and at the same time, in self protection, to overthrow the tyranny.

"Harmodius and others joined him in the conspiracy (514). They murdered Hipparchus as he was arranging the Panathenaic procession, but Hippias eluded them and had them slain. To complicate the tale a courtesan Leaena, mistress of Harmodius, died bravely under torture, having refused to betray the surviving conspirators.

"If we may believe Greek tradition, she bit off her tongue and spat it in the face of her torturers to make sure that she would not answer their questions."

Sounds somewhat like a Verdi opera. Amazing, in real life, how an intimate love affair can affect the destiny of an entire nation. Yes, we all remember a recent event at the highest level in America which had the entire nation in a turmoil. But why is this? Marvelle speaks of "head-and-heart." Why do the emotions of a leader affect the heads of the populace? Can this not be ignored?

And as we progress along through this Story of Civilization, we note that this Greek event told of a love story "careless of gender." That part of the love story didn't appear to bother the participants -- only the stealing of the affections of one person by another. How is it that this "carelessness" has become almost a crime in Western civilization?

Robby

Your last question, ROBBY: It is a clear case of the majority in a society decreeing something about a minority, which said majority finds it has a strong distaste for, should be declared illegal by fiat.

Back when it was illegal to drink out of a public water fountain if your skin was dark, rules against race, religion, gender and so forth were simply not thought about by most individuals within the society.

But now that discrimination by race, religion and gender are forbidden, new words have crept into speeches to justify further injustices towards others. I give you "their life-style" as just one example of this.

Care less, meaning not to care whether two people of the same gender love each other. I can't speak about other civilizations, but it seems to me that the civilization and certain laws of the United States have been much influenced by what is written in the Bible; the Sodom and Gomorrah story comes to mind.

Mal

We have noticed and been commenting upon how mere mortal men became heroes, and even gods. We have also noted how real people and events get altered over time; so much so that the originals would not recognize themselves or their own stories! Therefore, I was bemused by the line on Page 124: were transformed by popular imagination . Obviously, the Durants were well aware of this trend throughout our history.

On this same page, while we are reading about the reforms of Cleisthenes, we are told he totally restructured the makeup of the tribes of Athens. We are then told religious ceremonies were instituted for each new tribe .. ...., and a famous ancient hero of the locality was made its deity or patron saint. Wow! Playing god big time here! Also making it irresistable to each locality to pledge allegiance to and get behind their new flag and tribal totems. Cleisthenes owned a deep understanding of the most simple and fundamental urges within the human animal, and used them to sweep the board clean and completely and successfully reorganize the whole game. How often have you, as have I, daydreamed of affecting just such sweeping changes in the world of our own time?

On page 125, the Durants make the claim that this marked the inauguration of representative government. Another important marker in the chronology of our march towards civilization!

Many of us in this discussion group have been here since we started "Our Oriental Heritage." We then continued on to "The Life of Greece" and began to notice that although Greece was technically Europe, much of its civilization had that oriental flavor. So we spent some time asking ourselves: "Is Greece Oriental or Occidental? Where does Europe end and the Eastern world begin?" This INTRIGUING ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times addresses that very point. Europe is trying to find its own identity. Many nations are named and statesmen are arguing over what criteria should be used to determine if a nation is European or not.
I found this article very relevant to the cultures we are discussing here and hope you will too.

Robby

I think Durant is saying that "democracy" came to us by default. (Put as an equation: Democracy = Forms and procedures of popular government-Aristocrats - Dictator+ a broad base of voting citizenry. ) Democracy was there all along, mixed in with a few extra ingredients. Once the right ingredients were left on the table after the fight, the Greeks had only to broaden the voting base and remove qualification by descent to achieve democracy.

I think we also see some of the etiology of the word "democracy" in the demes.

No matter how flawed a voting process may be, it is clear that the ballot is the essential ingredient in a democracy.

Justin, you say:--"No matter how flawed a voting process may be, it is clear that the ballot is the essential ingredient in a democracy."
Am I correct that there are nations around the world that have a voting process but in which democracy still does not seem to work? Some of the African nations, for example?

Robby

Carelessness about gender became concern about gender because some societies found it necessary to produce children to survive-the more the better. Those societies dependent upon grazing and agriculture were particularly anxious to produce children. Homosexuality may a luxury indigenous to a leisure class. Greece had a leisure class Judea and Jerusalem did not. Sanctions entered the bible in that way. Paul , of course, admonished everything sexual. So it entered the New Testament. Fundementalist Christians and Literalist Christians did the rest.

Yes, Robbie. I think that is so. It also occurs to me that single candidate balloting to support a dictatorship is not an acceptable ingredient in a democracy.

Interesting article Robby. However, I wish I wouldn't keep hearing about "we the few who have been here since we started The Oriental Heritage" -- almost makes me feel like Turkey knocking at the door. Ah well

My qualifications are that I lived in the Orient and the Mid-East for many years and that I've read the Durants (and am still reading them) and followed the discussion as well as I could except for an accident that put me out of commission for a long while.

Turkey has been an active member of Europe for many years as well as being an important ally of the U.S. When Ataturk overthrew the Sultan in the early 20th century, he instituted drastic modern reforms -- abolishing polygamy, the veil and the fez; creating the enfranchisement of women; separation of church and state; and he actually based the Turkish constitution on the U.S. constitution. Certainly Turkey doesn't have a clean track record, ask any Armenian, but neither does Germany, Spain and many other European communities. (Definitely not the U.S. but that country isn't part of the EU.)

Slovenia was a part of the former Yugoslavia so at least that's a hopeful sign for the other people of Yugoslavia. Nationality is liquid isn't it? Land geography is merely a matter of artificial borders; lines drawn in the sand so to speak. What then unifies a people into a group or a nation? A shared identity, even if that identity is adopted?

Marvelle

Marvelle, I don't think qualifications are necessary to participate in this or any other SeniorNet discussion. What I inferred from what Robby said is that some articles to which he links are not necessarily about Ancient Greece.

Mal

"My qualifications are that I lived in the Orient and the Mid-East for many years and that I've read the Durants (and am still reading them) and followed the discussion as well."
And this, Marvelle, is what makes you along with everyone else a valued member of this forum."

Robby

Rather than identify Greece as a European nation or a middle eastern one, I think it is fair to say it was a trading nation that sailed primarily on the Mediterranean Sea and influenced and was influenced by the nations it traded with.

Marvelle, you said "Land geography is merely a matter of artificial borders; lines drawn in the sand so to speak. What then unifies a people into a group or a nation?"

I am curious to know what you think of the addition of 10 countries being included in the European Economic Community? will it have an affect this side of the Atlantic?

Eloïse

Justin - love that equation for democracy. Kenneth Arrow won a Noble Prize for economics for demonstrating "mathematically" there can be no "fair" voting system.

One more time, The Closing of the American Mind gives a very interesting intellectual history for the term, "life-style".

Eloise, I think that the addition of 10 more nations to the EEU will make it more viable as a (united) community in the eyes of the world, including North America. If only they can remain united.

Marvelle

No sooner will the countries of the EEU be together than we will begin to hear references to "country rights". It's part of the game. In the US we call it "State's Rights". The tern has become code for segregation but it also is applied in many other issues. Who knows why Turkey is having difficulty getting an invitation to EEU. Geographically, it is part of Europe. Istambul is hard to overlook.Is the issue really one of terrorist control?

From Larry Gonick's "The Cartoon History of the Universe."

Larry Gonick's View of Women in Ancient Athens

Turkey, for the last few years has made a tremendous jump ahead in economy and trade. Ten years ago, the goods from Turkey were considered similar to the the products from China or HongKong: cheap, breakable, bad quality.

These days, their textiles is the best and compete in price with any other from Europe or Asia. Their hightech is very developped and also can compete with anything European. American goods are still very expensive to import. Maybe EEU is mindful of that competition? I know that clothes, linen, towels from Turkey are 10 times cheaper for us to buy now than even the locally made. Bubble

Marvelle - "if only they can remain united". The Euro will keep them united. But culturally? I often hear interviews of people from different European countries on the French television channel and the interviewee speaks English to the interviewer and his/her comments are dubbed in French. I am just wondering if it is possible that 20 countries all speaking different languages can, or will get along and can the English language become an element of unity?

Friction here in Canada is about language, but in S of C language is seldom mentioned as a problem between warring countries. I think it is a major issue when one country invades another and imposes its language on the other.

Eloïse

Durant continues with the Establishment of Democracy:--

"Though the people lent no visible support to this revolt, Hippias was frightened by it into replacing his hitherto mild rule with a regime of suppression, espionage, and terror. Gradually, as the dictatorship grew harsher, the cry for freedom grew louder. Harmodius and Aristogeiton, who had conspired for love and passion rather than for democracy, were transformed by popular imagination into the martyrs of liberty.

"Off in Delphi the Alcmaconids, who had been re-exiled by Peisistratus, saw their opportunity, raised an army, and marched upon Athens with the announced intention of deposing Hippias. At the same time they bribed the Pythian oracle to tell all Spartans who consulted her that Sparta must overthrow the tyranny at Athens.

"Hippias successfully resisted the forces of the Alcmaeonids, but when a Licedaemonian army joined them, he withdrew to the Areopagus. Seeking the security of his children in the event of his own death, he sent them secretly out of Athens. They were captured by the invaders, and Hippias, as the price of their safety, consented to abdication and exile (510). The Alcmaeonids, led by the courageous Cleisthenes, entered Athens in triumph, and on their heels came the banished aristocrats, prepared to celebrate the return of their property and their power.

"In the election that ensued, Isagoras, representing the aristocracy, was chosen to be chief archon. Cleisthenes, one of the defeated candidates, aroused the people to revolt, overthrew Isagoras, and set up a popular dictatorship.

"The Spartans again invaded Athens, seeking to restore Isagoras, but the Athenians resisted so tenaciously that the Spartans retired, and Cleisthenes, the Alemaeonid aristocrat, proceeded to establish democracy (507)."

A tyrannical rule which resulted in the oppressed people rising up, the end result being the formation of a democracy. Sound familiar? And I'm wondering -- is that the only way that democracies come into existence?

Robby

Dear Robby,

Thanks for your kind invitation and here I am! It's finals week, so I will probably just lurk for a while - probably would in any case to get the "lay of the land."

Looks like the brain trust in here and I have enjoyed what I have read thus far.

Hugs and thanks again,

Karen http://members.fortunecity.com/gotgraphics/ladyzinnia/index.html

I'm thinking of the French Revolution. I'm thinking of the American Revolution. I'm thinking of what happened in Russia and the Soviet Union later. And I'm wondering if any democracies existed when our founding fathers decided America would be a democracy. Were there?

Mal

Hi, Karen! Glad you found us. Welcome to our family here. You will find that sometimes we dig in and get the old brain cells flashing and sometimes we just lie back and swap easy-going thoughts. All in all, it's a Fun Forum! Put in your own opinions and be part of us.

Robby

"The first reform of Cleisthenes, the Alcmaconid aristocrat, struck at the very framework of Attic aristocracy -- those four tribes and 360 clans whose leadership, by centuries of tradition, was in the hands of the oldest and richest families. Cleisthenes abolished this kinship classification, and replaced it with a territorial devision into ten tribes, each composed of a number of demes.
"To prevent the formation of geographical or occupational blocs, such as the old parties of Mountain, Shore, and Plain, each tribe was to be composed of an equal number of demes, or districts, from the city, from the coast, and from the interior. To offset the sanctity that religion had given to the old division, religious ceremonies were instituted for each new tribe or deme, and a famous ancient hero of the locality ws made its deity or patron saint.
"Freemen of foreign origin, who had rarely been admitted to the franchise under the aristocratic determination of citizenship by descent, now automatically became citizens of the demes in which they lived.
"At one stroke the roll of voters was almost doubled, and democracy secured a new support and a broader base."
Sounds like modern politics to me. How about gerrymandering? How about listing foreigners on the rolls? How about church influence on political districts which are heavy in one religion? I wonder if any of the politicians of today read any ancient history?

Robby

Read ancient history? Well I can tell you that the last 3 French Presidents, at least, had read and studied the Julius Caesar Wars with attention. I think it was Pompidou who even bragged about that in the early seventies. LOL

I don't think any has done an in depth reading like we have here. Maybe we could invite them, Robby? I can just see Arik Sharon and G. Bush posting here! Bubble

"The Assembly was enlarged by the access of new citizens, so that a full meeting of its membership would have meant an attendance of approximately thirty thousand men. All these were eligible for service in the heliaea, or courts. But the fourth class, or thetes, were still, as under Solon, ineligible to individual office.
"The powers of the Assembly were enlarged by the institution of ostracism, which Cleisthenes seems to have added as a protection for the young democracy. At any time, by a majority of votes written secretly upon potsherds (ostraka), the Assembly, in a quorum of six thousand members, might send into exile for ten years any man who in its judgment has become a danger to the state. In this way ambitious leaders would be stimulated to conduct themselves with circumspection and moderation, and men suspected of consiracy could be disposed of without the law's delay.
"The procedure required that the Assembly should be asked, 'Is there any man among you whom you think vitally dangerous to the state? If so, whom?' The Assembly might then vote to ostracize any one citizen -- not excepting the mover of the motion.
"Such exile involved no confiscation of property, and no disgrace. It was merely democracy's way of cutting off the 'tallest ears of corn.' Nor did the Assembly abuse its power. In the ninety years between the introduction of ostracism and its disuse at Athens, only ten person were banished by it from Attica."
Any comments as Athens moves toward democracy?

Robby

"Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat, in her book, History of Food, points out that the presence of oysters in ancient Greek society may be detected in the word "ostracism." In the early sixth century BCE, the Athenian statesman Cleisthenes instituted a constitution for Athens. Included in this was a process intended to prevent the possibility of tyranny, in which the governing body would vote to remove undesirable persons -- that is, those who had the potential to become tyrants -- from its midst. Once a year, at a meeting convened for the purpose, each person present would write the name of his candidate for exile on an oyster shell (ostrakon), and when the results were tallied, if any man garnered enough votes, he was sent out of the region for ten years. Eventually, clay shards took the place of the shells, and the period of exile was shortened to five years."

GREEK WOMEN PHILOSOPHERS

Mal: That's a really interesting link about women philosophers and women mathematicians. I have noticed a correlation between left-handedness and mathematical ability. Has anyone else noticed this?

Mal, I always like the odd little bits of information so I loved the oysters!

Marvelle

For those who like math here is an animation in French about LE THÉORÈME DE PYTHAGORE" and if you go further, you will see Archimède.

Where else on Senior Net can you visit Greece and discourse in French at the same time? Zut, alors!!

"Beginning with a thoroughly unconstitutional revolt, Cleisthenes had established, in the face of the most powerful families in Attica, a democratic constitution that continued in operation, with only minor changes, to the end of Athenian liberty.
"The democracy was not complete. It applied only to freemen, and still placed a modest property limitation upon eligibility to individual office. But it gave all legislative, executive, and judicial power to an Assembly and a Court composed of the citizens, to magistratees appointed by and responsible to the Assembly, and to a Council for whose members all citizens might vote, and in whose supreme authority, by the operation of the lot at least one third of them actually shared for at least a year of their lives.
"The Athenians themselves were exhilarated by this adventure into sovereignty. They realized that they had undertaken a difficult enterprise, but they advanced to it with courage and pride, and, for a time, with unwonted self-restraint. From that moment they knew the zest of freedom in action, speech, and thought. From that moment they began to lead all Greece in literature and art, even in statesmanship and war.
They learned to respect anew a law that was their own considerd will, and to love with unprecedented passion a state that was their unity, their power, and their fulfillment. When the greatest empire of the age decided to destroy these scattered cities called Greece, or to lay them under tribute to the Great King, it forgot that in Attica it would be opposed by men who owned the soil that they tilled, and who ruled the state that governed them.
"It was fortunate for Greece, and for Europe, that Cleisthenes completed his work, and Solon's, twelve years before Marathon."
It is impossible to read this without thinking of that small group of men who met in Philadelphia in the 18th Century A.D.

Robby

It's hard to imagine how they made an Assembly of thousands work. The simple act of vote counting in a division of the house would be awkward. It's no wonder the men in Philadelphia resorted to a republic. Representative government can be so much more efficient than a pure democracy. However, even with the representative government we settled for, the job of vote counting for 425 congressmen was very difficult before electronics came along.

Click the link below to see a chapter from The Athenian Constitution by Aristotle. There is much about Cleisthenes (Part 20) and democracy here. Click NEXT at the bottom of the page to see more chapters.

THE ATHENIAN CONSTITUTION BY ARISTOTLE

SCHOOL OF ATHENS PAINTING BY RAPHAEL

CLICK THE PEOPLE IN THE PAINTING TO SEE WHO THEY ARE

Mal, that link is absolutely stunning. Thanks.

An astounding link, Mal!!

Robby

What a site! Thank you.

It also give a glimpse to answer for Eloise (I think it was?) about the unity of a EEU without a common language. On that site if you click on Swiss writers, you also get the bonus to see how many languages are spoken by Swiss and where on the map, also their multi-languages anthem. I have lived there and had the number of official languages wrong! Bubble

The Great Migration

<"In carrying the story of Sparta and Athens down to the eve of Marathon we have sacrificed the unity of time to the unity of place. It is true that the cities of the mainland were older than the Greek settlements in the Aegean and Ionia, and that these cities, in many cases, sent out the colonies whose life we must now describe. But, by a confusing inversion of normal sequences, several of those colonies became greater than their mother cities, and preceded them in the development of wealth and art.

"The real creators of Greek culture were not the Greeks of what we now call Greece, but those who fled before the conquering Dorians, fought desperately for a foothold on foreign shores, and there, out of their Mycenaean memories and their amazing energy, made the art and science, the philosophy and poetry that, long before Marathon, placed them in the forefront of the Western world.

"Greek civilization was inherited by the parent cities from their children."

Apparently we are talking about the Greek diaspora. In reading the above, I think of the English colonies which fled English tyranny, fought for a foothold on foreign shores, became greater than the mother cities, and proceded to develop English art and science.

Robby

Bubble, I am always in awe of how the Swiss have managed to organize their democracy knowing how vulnerable they are tightly surrounded by foreign countries who are often at war. I have visited that country several times because my son has lived in Lausanne for the past 20 years. The 4 National languages spoken are 64% German, 19% French, 8% Italian and 1% Romanche. The country is so small that you can drive across in a few short hours. There is order everywhere. How do they do it? They guard their constitution jealously and keep foreigners at arms length, while making every effort to tolerate other compatriotes speaking other tongues in order to preserve the unity of their prosperous country.

Of what I know of the school system, In Lausanne kids are were taught in French with an option of second languages. What an organization that must be.

I drove all across Switzerland going from one region to the other and only by reading the signs on store fronts did I know that I had come across a language border. Most people working in the hotels, restaurants speak several languages.

Is the Swiss form of Democracy ideal for other countries? I don’t know, but it would sure help in keeping peace in the world.

Eloïse

Robby- Eloise et.al. Maybe I should not be sticking my nose in here at this late date, but I have been surfing around the Books forum awaiting the next history book discussion. Eloise's last message caught my eye, since I too have visited Switzerland several times. It is my favorite country in the world, as a matter of fact.

Regarding Eloise's last comment about the Swiss form of government being adoptable elsewhere in the world. I cannot see it as very useful. Only because most Swiss are multilingual, are they able to govern themselves in a multilingual society. Also the country is small in population. Can you immagine our Congress trying to function in a multilingual society. Actually we may get to find out before too many decades pass since a small minority are bent on forcing multiculturalism and it's side kick multiple languages upon the majority of our nation.

The United States was founded as an English speaking nation. For over two hundred years there has been no question that this was our language. Our forefathers learned it regardless of where they came from. But this fact is being challenged now. We need only look to our north to see what problems dual languages create for a country.

Well, I should butt out. But as I said Eloise's question relative to the Swiss form of government in a multilingual society attracted my attention.

BOULEUTERION Council of 500 held its meetings here

TEMPLE OF HEPHASITOS, started in 449 BC

ALTAR OF 12 GODS, considered the heart of Athens, constructed 522/21 BC

williewoody - Even the Swiss are not born multilingual! I will not refer to the "north" reference: this is not the forum for that.

Back to ancient Greece. I wonder if only Greek was heard in the Athens agora? Bubble

There is no doubt in my mind that it is English that is becoming the prominent language in the world regardless of laws because as usual the economy remains the motor to move civilization forward.

In North America as well as in Europe, English will override any political or cultural purpose by its sheer economic force.

Russia.

I have a friend who has visited Russia both before and after the fall of communism. She had cause to spend a lot of time there as she and her husband adopted a special needs child from a Russian Orphanage. (Birth defects from Chernobyl disaster) She said it is very sad to go to Russia today as the people are demoralised and poorer than they were under communism. It is food for thought.

Carolyn

ANCIENT GREEK COLONIZATION

My new boss, a woman, teaches Russian pilots courses in international pilot regulations. As far as I know, she does not speak a word of Russian. Well, maybe she has picked up the odd word or two.

Eloise: Maurice Denuziere has written an historical romance novel dealing with Switzerland during the time of Napoleon. The work is presented in the French language. It is called "Helvetia". I read it some months back and enjoyed the tale. Denuziere is much better than Bourin. I think you would enjoy it. Maybe I should have put this in the French Discussion but you mentioned Switzerland.

WillieWoody:--There is no such thing as people joining us "at a late date." People join us continually. As for your trying to locate a "history forum," I am amazed that you haven't found us long before this! This discussion group has been going on for well over a year. We started with Durant's "Our Oriental Heritage" and, as you see, are now in "The Life of Greece."
Because so much happened in Ancient Greece that led to the civilization that we know today, we find ourselves constantly making side trips in our conversations such as the culture in Switzerland, but we always return to our main theme. This is guided by Durant's comments. You are invited to buy second hand Durant's second volume but if you cannot obtain one, you can still keep along with us by reading the various postings and by regularly checking the GREEN quotes in the Heading which are periodically changed.

Robby

The School of Athens is one of Raphael's greatest achievements. He came to it after experiencing the ideas of Michaelangelo, Perugino, and Leonardo. The perspective is superb and the figures come out of a light background rather than a dark background which was his wont. The iconography deals with the relationship between Christian revelation and classical learning represented by the philosophers of Greece. The doctors of the Church appear on one side and the philosophers on the other side. The varied positions of the figures show Raphael's great skill in draughtsmanship. The work is placed in the Stanza della Segnatura in the Papal apartments at the Vatican. It is really in a public setting because this Stanza is a room where the Pope signs Papal bulls. The public is admitted and so the "School of Athens" is available to us.

Thank you, Justin, for explaining that to us.

Robby

"The Greeks had been nomadic before Homer, and all the Balkan peninsula had seemed fluid with this movement, but the successive Greek waves that broke upon the Aegean isles and the western coasts of Asia were stirred up above all by the Dorian invasion.
"From every part of Hellas men went out in search of homes and liberty beyond the grasp of the enslaving conquerors. Political faction and family feud in the older states contributed to the migration. The defeated sometimes chose exile, and the victors gave every encouragement to their exodus.
"Some of the Greek survivors of the Trojan War stayed in Asia. Others, through shipwreck or adventure, settled in the islands of the Aegean. Some, reaching home after a perilous journey, found their thrones or their wives occupied, and returned to their ships to build new homes and fortunes abroad.
"In mainland Greece, as in modern Europe, colonization proved a blessing in varied ways. It provided outlets for surplus population and adventurous spirits, and safety valves agaianst agrarian discontent. It established foreign markets for domestic products, and strategic depots for the import of food and minerals.
"In the end it created a commercial empire whose thriving interchange of goods, arts, ways, and thoughts made possible the complex culture of Greece."
I don't know about you folks but I find this migration, as Durant describes it, most thrilling. I can visualize it in my mind. It would make a tremendous movie!
Robby

The "School of Athens" is a fresco and as you probably know it was painted on wet plaster a "hand at a time" from cartoon markings. The iconography is interesting because on the one hand, while much of the Christian doctrine comes out of an Aristotelian foundation, on the other hand the Church was alarmed by the similarities of it's tenets to the Osirus-Dionysian practices which we will come upon later.

The development of "Magna Gracia" took place over several centuries. In the eighth century Corinth founded Syracuse and today, one can find standing remnants of temples that are in better condition than many on the mother mainland in spite of several Persian invasions. In Syracuse, the Temple of Appollo and the Olympieum are from the early sixth century. Both these buildings have lost their entablatures but their column formations are still evident. There is a pediment available at Garitsa on Corfu and at Ephesus there is a sixth century temple to Artemis. This Temple is often called the Temple of Croesus. It was excavated in recent times and was found buried 15 to 20 feet below the current surface. The presence of these temples on the perifery of mainland Greece shows I think the degree of early development that occurred in these remote places.

TEMPLE OF ARTEMIS

TEMPLE OF APOLLO

OLYMPIEUM, click link at bottom of page to see ruins of today

Southern Italy became Grecian early. Pythagorus established his school at Metapontum in the Gulf of Taranto around 520 BCE.

It was in this period of Greek expansion that the Ionians moved into Byzantium (Istambul)and established a strong presence. In the Middle Ages, at the time of the Crusades, the King of Byzantium was called a Basileus (a Greek term for King) and the Greek presence was felt thoughout Asia Minor. It was from the Greeks that the Seljuk Turks took several of the Greek cities in Asia Minor and caused the Crusades to be launched. One can see that Greek influence was lasting in these remote areas.

These comments for Artemis temple were most interesting and I learned new details. Thanks Mal.

This group is fantastic because each here has such a different "expertise", saw different things, has opinions influenced by different education or background. Where else could we find such wealth to glean? Thanks Robby for herding us in this quest.

I have a question for the experts. I remember vividly the picture of a Roman temple (illustration in my first Latine school book) and I would like very much to read about it. It is a smallish building, round in shape, with colonnade all around it, white marble I think. It was dedicated to the worship of a goddess, Diane or Venus I think. The problem is that I cannot remember the location nor the name. Anyone knows what I am talking about? Bubble

Every one of those temples in the links by Mal are well worth visiting and pausing to examine in detail. We marvel at the high buildings and other architecture of our times and blind ourselves to the wonders created 2,500 years ago. And thanks again, Justin, for the running commentary which makes those times live for us.

Robby

The migration followed five main lines -- Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian, Euxine, Italian.
"The earliest migration began in the northern states of the mainland, which were the first to feel the brunt of the invasions from the north and the west. From Thessaly, Phthiotis, Boeotia, and Aetolia, throughout the twelfth and eleventh centuries, a stream of immigrants moved slowly across the Aegean to the region about Troy, and founded there the twelve cities of the Aeolian League.
"The second line took its start in the Peloponnesus, whence thousands of Mycenaeans and Achaeans fled on the 'Return of the Heraclids.' Some of them settled in Attica, some in Euroea, many of them moved out into the Cyclades, ventured across the Aeean, and established in western Asia Minor the twelve cities of the Ionian Dodecapolis.
"The third line was followed by Dorians who overflowed the Peloponnesus into the Cyclades, conquered Crete and Cyrene, and set up a Dorian Hexapolis around the island of Rhodes.
"The fourth line, starting anywhere in Greece, settled the coast of Thrace, and built a hundred cities on the shores of the Hellespont, the Propontis, and the Euxine Seas.
"The fifth line line moved westward to what the Greeks called the Ionian Isles, thence across to Italy and Sicily, and finally to Gaul and Spain."
We have to remind ourselves that migration existed over a period of centuries. One can't build "a hundred cities" overnight.

Robby

Here is a MAP showing the first line of migration where they moved from the Greek mainland across the Aegean sea to the area around Troy.

Robby

Here are the names of the twelve cities of AEOLIS.

Robby

HISTORICAL MINIATURES OF GREEK SOLDIERS

Click on the Figure Gallery

Robby: Thank you for the invite to join your discussion group. Don't be amazed that I can't find a history discussion group. My overwhelming interest is in United States History. Just finished a discussion of President Harry Truman, by David McCullough and Stephen Ambrose's "Nothing Like it in the World." before that. Come January we will begin study of the "Ambiguous Iroquois Empire." Thanks, but I think I will stick to U.S. history.

To Bubbles: I am sorry I apparently offended you with my reference to the north (meaning Canada) my entire message was intended to refer to the problems other nations might face with a multilingual government. And yes I am aware that the Swiss or anyone else are not born multilingual. I just admire their excllent school system which allows them to learn more than one language and apparently does an excellent job of teaching them.

After January 5th, y'all come visit us in the History Book Forum. As I have indicated we will be discussing Francis Fleming's "The Ambiguous Iroquois Empire."

Williewoody, have fun with the Iroquois Nation. I am descended from the Mohawks, one of the tribes belonging to that nation. Would love to join you, but just have too much going to manage it.

Those were EXCELLENT figurines, Eloise. If I hadn't known that in advance, I would have thought they were full-sized sculptures. Be sure to see all four pages of them.

Robby

Here is a sketch of ANCIENT SMYRNA, one of the cities in the Aeolian League. Apparently there were suburbs outside of cities even then.

Robby

Click HERE to learn the facts about the Dorian invasion which caused the Greeks to migrate. But, if I understand this correctly, the Dorians were, themselves, Greek but of a lesser culture who then proceded to push out the more cultured Greeks. The latter then migrated, taking their higher culture with them, and we had the Greek diaspora which "advanced" more than the original mother cities.

Robby

HOOKER GODDESSES

THE HETAIRAE OF ANCIENT GREECE

Bubble: There are several round temples. Some are Greek and some are Roman. The Greek Temple at Delphi is round, then there is the Roman Round Temple by Tiber in Rome. At Heliopolis (Baalbek)there is another round temple. Some people refer to the Pantheon as round although the exterior entrance is rectangular but the interior is round. Santa Costanza in Rome is round but it's entrance is ovoid. The Mausoleum of Tor de Schiavi in Rome is round but again with a rectangular entrance. There is also one in Thessalonica, I can't recall the name. Lepsis Magma in Rome contained an Octagonal that looked round. It was part of the old Forum. We can't forget Flavius' Coloseo which is more ovoid than circular but round none the less. If the temple were Greek, you might be talking about the Tholos in the Marmaria at Delphi. This temple is round but there are only three columns standing so it's hard to recognize it's circular plan with out seeing the base. Perhaps, Mal can find a few of these for you to select from. The temple at Delphi has been copied many times and was used a great deal to decorate English gardens on the great estates in the 18th and 19th centuries

Bubble: I forgot the Temple of Vesta. It is round. It is in Rome at the foot of the Palatine. What is standing is from the early first century although the thing burned many times. This was the home of the vestal virgins. During early settlement on the Tiber when fire was made only by friction, a public fire was maintained in every village. Young girls were used to watch a public fire. The fire became sacred and their building a temple. The fire was maintained for over a thousand years. I'll bet this is the one shown in your Latin Book.

GREEK TEMPLE AT DELPHI

The page linked below has been translated electronically from the German. Scroll down to see a reconstruction of the Tholos.

THOLOS OF THE MARMARIA

Mal; The Germans do it well, don't they. They throw it all in including a reconstruction. I think the temple of the Vesta on the Palatine is the one she is looking for. You are a "fantastique" retriever.

Merci, Justin. Woof woof !

Following the second line of migration (see Post 347), here is the map of PELOPONNESUS from where "thousands of Mycenaeans and Achaeans fled to Attica, Euboea, the Cyclades, and to the twelve cities in Western Asia Minor."

Robby

Another map showing where in the "second line of migration" those who fled went to the ISLE OF EUBOEA and then across the Aegean Sea to Asia Minor.

Robby

One final MAP to show the Cyclades, one of the areas of the second line of migration. Until I entered this discussion group, I had no idea that Greece was comprised of so many isles. Scroll all the way to the right.

Robby

Bubble: Mal has given us images of the important "round temples in Rome and environs". Which one do you like?

The route of the Second migration must have been from Euboea down the cycladic chain to Delos and across to Samos and thence to Asia Minor. Most of these people were farmers not seafarers. They needed ferry service to reach Asia. The route from Euboea to Chios would be a long and dangerous one across the open sea. The southern route amounted to Island hopping but a ferryman could make a nice living in those days.

Sorry, I am late answering: we had a long power failure yesterday because of the terrible storm, then so many short ones later that I deemed it wiser not to leave the puter connected.

Robby - about the Smyrna drawing. My husband is from Smyrna (Izmir today) and he said that effectively the town has water on three sides and at one place you can see the building on the other side of the channel. He said that as a child they used to call that "the people across". It has always been a prosperous town and even today building and industries flourish at an incredible rate. I heard that the government encourages new factories to open and offer work as well as give incentives to investors.

Justin - Right, Vesta! Now I remember the Vestales story too. The impression was so strong on my 12y old mind. It is the Vesta temple lurking at the back of my mind and so annoying because I could not get at it. Thanks infinitely. I visited Baalbeck's ruins (in Lebanon) in '57 on an organized tour. It was so impressive. I was particularly moved by the kindness of the locals. They insisted on me seeing it all with the others even though it was unaccessible. Two men carried me and my braces on a Hotel sturdy wooden armchair through all the rumble of the ruins.

Mal, you are the greatest with those sites. Yes my favorite is the Vesta temple - not in Greece then. I had the bonus of reading some of that long Italian article on churches. I see again the wealth to be found in architecture all over Europe. Thanks.

One could spend almost a life time visiting and enjoying everyone of these Greek islands. They each have their own special beauty although on many life is very hard and seems bleak for the villagers even with bright sun and clear skies.But again, they have less demands of comforts than we do? They certainly sing and make merry more than we do. Bubble

"Two men carried me and my braces on a Hotel sturdy wooden armchair through all the rumble of the ruins.

I find that very touching Bubble. I can just imagine a 12 yr old girl, with braces, being carried on a chair by two men across ruins so that she would be able to enjoy the site as much as the others. Perhaps it made more of an impression on you than it made on the others of your group.

"But again, they have less demands of comforts than we do? With a climate like they have in Greece, it is understandable they can enjoy life with less comfort. I live close to a Greek community here and they seem to have the same desire for comfort we have with our Canadian climate.

Mal, it is so nice to visit all the sites you give us. I feel like if I had visited the Greek Islands even if ruins don't speak to me as much as it does other people but I still appreciate learning about our Greek Origins, so to speak. I will come out of Life of Greece with more knowledge.

Justin, Your posts are very interesting, they provide an added dimention to the Durants' commentaries.

Robby, thanks.

Eloïse

Just musing here, and not really knowing what I am talking to myself about, but was not and is not Cyprus divided into Greek and Turkish territory? Has this not been a sad and warlike, rather Northern Ireland, if you will, type of situation? What I am thinking is that the Turks may well be directly descended from the original Greeks!

This link will take you to a list of ancient cities of which CYRENE was one. Durant told us that in the third migration, the Greeks overflowed the Peloponnesus into even Africa where Cyrene was located. Scroll toward the bottom to learn about Cyrene.

Robby

We have previously talked about the Hellespont but here is a MAP OF HELLESPONT to show us one of the spots settled by the fourth line of migration.

Robby

People can sometimes be very kind to people who wear a brace or braces, and they sometimes are not, especially when these en-braced people are applying for jobs.

This Ancient Greek migration reminds me a little of the migration West in the United States.

A member of SeniorNet, Kevxu ( Jack ), lives in Cyprus. He moved there from Portugal. I haven't seen him around for a while and hope he's all right.

Mal

The link below takes you to a page which has images of sites and monuments in Athens. When you click each thumbnail picture, you'll access a page with many links to other pictures. It's possible to spend most of an afternoon on these interesting pages.

SITES AND MONUMENTS IN ANCIENT ATHENS

As the Ancient Greeks moved westward in what Durant called the fifth line of migration, there were apparently many resources to attract them and help them to settle colonies. This MAP shows us the resources available in Italy, Gaul, and Spain.

Robby

Durant continues:--

"This was a century-long migration. It was an adventure of high moment to leave the land consecrated by the graves of one's ancestors and guarded by one's hereditary deities, and go forth into strange regions unprotected, presumably by the gods of Greece.

"Therefore the colonists took with them a handful of earth from their native state to strew upon the alien soil, and solemnly carried fire from the public altar of their mother city to light the civic fire at the hearth of their new settlement. The chosen site was on or near a shore, where ships -- the second home of half the Greeks -- might serve as a refuge from attack by land. Better still if it were a coastal plain protected by mountains that provided a barrier in the rear, an acropolis for defense in the town, and a promontory-sheltered harbor in the sea. Best of all if such a haven could be found on some commercial route, or by a river mouth that received the products of the interior for export or exchange. Then prosperity was only a matter of time.

"Good sites were nearly always occupied, and had to be conquered by strategem or force. The Greeks, in such matters, recognized no morals loftier than our own. In some cases the conquerors reduced the prior inhabitants to slavery, with all the irony of pilgrims seeking freedom. More often they made friends of the natives by bringing them Greek gifts, charming them with a superior culture, courting their women, and adopting their gods.

"The Greeks did not bother about purity of races, and could always find in their teeming pantheon some deity sufficiently like the local divinity to facilitate a religious entente.

"Above all, the colonists offered the products of the Greek handicrafts to the natives, secured grain, cattle, or minerals in return, and expoted these throughout the Mediterranean -- preferably to the metrtopolis, or mother city, from which the settlers had come, and to which they retained for centuries a certain filial piety."

Is this the origin of the phrase "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts?" Interesting comments by Durant:--"recognizd no morals loftier than our own" and "the irony of pilgrims seeking freedom."

Robby

No, though a good question. The quote comes from the wooden horse full of Greek soldiers left at the gates of Troy as a gift by the presumably departed Greeks.

Could that "wooden horse incident" be merely one example of the Greeks using this "gift" procedure to their advantage?

Robby

Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

I had no idea until I read of the five main migrations of the Ancient Greeks that "Greece" was not just a small peninsula near Ancient Minor centering primarily on the city of Athens but that the Greek civilization touched Greece itself, Italy, France, Spain, and North Africa.

Robby

Yes, Robby, and the artifacts of those settlements are still with us just as later we will find Roman artifacts scattered throughout the ancient world. Archeologists are finding more and more evidence of the presence of Greeks all over the Mediteranean basin. Odysseus was offered immortality by Calypso on the the Maltese Islands south of Sicily. If the Greeks were aware of the Maltese in the Eighth Century, I am not surprised to find them all over the shores of the Adriatic and the Tyrrenian Seas after the migrations.

Someone suggested the present day Turks might be descendants of Greeks, but I think they came down from the steps in Eleventh Century CE. The cities of Anatolia and south were Greek at the time of the Crusades.

Were the Ancient Greeks good sailors? Get your imagination going. Can you see ANCIENT GREEKS in America?

Robby

"The term, diaspora, refers to groups whose out-of-borders position is the result of migration -- whether forced or voluntary."

- - - Milton Esman, Professor Emeritus Cornell University

I found the site Robby posted above some time ago and have mused about it ever since. I have the feeling that some day proof will be found that will fill our current ideas of who discovered what full of holes.

You know, human beings have wandered from the time of the earliest civilizations. What is there about people that makes them want to know what's beyond the horizon they can see? It's more than just the kind of expansion caused by those who want to conquer to acquire more land. There's something else. Is it the need to explore? Is it boredom with things that are usual and humdrum? Is it only curiosity? What is it? Does anyone know?

Mal

If the Illiad was written about the fall of Troy, and there were these migration where does the Aenead(not spelled right) fit in as this was after the fall of Troy and the journey of those who escaped and supposedly to a Latin country.

Good to hear from you, Moxi, and maybe someone here has the answer to your question.

Robby

"One by one these colonies took form, until Greece was no longer the narrow peninsula of Homeric days, but a strangely loose association of independent cities scattered from Africa to Thrace and from Gibraltar to the eastern end of the Black Sea. It was an epochal performance for the women of Greece. We shall not always find them so ready to have children.
"Through these busy centers of vitality and intelligence the Greeks spread into all of southern Europe the seeds of that subtle and precarious luxury called civilization, without which life would have no beauty, and history no meaning."
Key words which Durant put together to set the stage -- vitality -- intelligence -- women -- Europe -- civilization -- meaning. Perhaps we are beginning to see an answer to Voltaire's question in the Heading above.

Robby

Click HERE to locate a most interesting link about how Gibraltar was formed and the evidences of the Greeks and other Ancients having been there. If those Ancient Greeks had gone just a hundred yards west of Gibraltar, they would have been in the Atlantic Ocean. Who says they didn't just continue on?

Robby

MAP OF CLASSICAL GREECE AND THE ATHENIAN EMPIRE

MAP OF THE TRAVELS OF AENEAS

Great maps, Mal! Those Greeks got around!!

"Sailing south from the Piraeus along the Attic coast, and bearing east around Sunium's templed promontory, the traveler reaches the little isle of Ceos, where, if we may belief the incredible on the authority of Strabo and Plutarch, 'there was once a law that appears to have commanded those who were sixty years of age to drink hemlock, in order that the food might be sufficient for the rest' and 'there was no memory of a case of adultery or seduction over a period of seven hundred years.
"Perhaps that is why her greatest poet exiled himself from Ceos after reaching middle age. He might have found it difficult to attain, at home, the eighty-seven years that Greek tradition gives him. All the Hellenic world knew Simonides at thirty, and when he died, in 469, he was by common consent the most brilliant writer of his time. His fame as poet and singer won him an invitation from Hipparchus, codictator of Athens, at whose court he found it possible to live in amity with another poet, Anacreon.
"He survived the war with Persia, and was chosen again and again to write epitaphs for memorials of the honored dead. In his old age he lived at the court of Hieron I, dictator of Syracuse, and his repute was then so high that in 475 he made peace in the field betwen Hieron and Theron, dictator of Acragas, as hostilities were about to begin. Plutarch, in his perennially pertinent essay on 'Should Old Men Govern?' tells us that Simonides continued to win the prize for lyric poetry and choral song into very old age.
"When finally he consented to die, he was buried at Acragas with the honors of a king."
Here was a man, living in Sicily, who dies, according to Durant, when he "consents to." Any thoughts here on the abilities of "old" people?
I know -- a ridiculous question to ask in Senior Net -- yet -- there might be some thoughts forthcoming.

Robby

Old age? When do we get ‘old’ is it something that we decide, or something that society decides? If it is something that we decide, then what does ‘old’ mean? Is old when we can no longer function physically, mentally, or both? Then a young paraplegic would become old because he no longer functions in his/her daily needs. If he/she still has mental capacity then the term ‘old’ is pushed back until mental capacity diminishes. Then we have to assume that the term ‘old’ is only applicable when one does not function normally both physically and mentally, at which time other people decide for them.

On the other hand, if the Greeks passed a law that people over 60 had to die they deprived themselves of the benefit of great minds, so it was a stupid law. The Eskimos when an old person can no longer be useful to their society is left on an ice raft alone with a knife. Either they die of exposure or by suicide. That is not acceptable. It violates human rights.

The term ‘old’ does not apply to this group of participants.

In extended care facilities in Montreal the medium age of the clients is somewhere around 82. Are we allowed to say that these people are ‘old’? I don’t think so because perhaps they are there only because of physical ailments, mentally they could be as alert as we are in this group. So I would have to find another term instead of ‘old’ when I reach the stage when my family will have to decide for me.

Right now, I say to people that I am not old yet. I might eventually get there, but it will be for a very short while just before I die when my time is up.

I am leaving for our Christmas family gathering and will come back before the New Year.

Merry Christmas everybody.

Eloïse

I see nothing wrong or derogatory in the term "old age". We are babies. We are children. We are youths. We are middle-aged. We are old. This is the reality, and this is the fact. Old doesn't mean we're decrepit, unable to function and so useless we must be put out in the back forty. It means we've reached another stage in our lives; that's all. I will be 75 years old next July, and I'm proud of every single year, not ashamed because I'm old and have reached nearly three quarters of a century. For me, anyway, growing this old is a real accomplishment.

I firmly believe that what's in the genes has more to do with longevity than the way we take care of ourselves, though taking good care of ourselves is a darned good idea. I have cited this example before. The uncle who raised me lived well into his eighties. He was a hard-working man who ate all the wrong foods, but never smoked cigarettes, cigars or a pipe, or drank alcohol in his life. He got plenty of exercise puttering around in his yard and "fixing things" on and in his house.

My New England Yankee mentor did everything he could to live by his wits so he wouldn't have to work hard. He had two or three cocktails every day and had for years; smoked his first cigarette at the age of nine with many packs smoked the rest of his life. His diet was good; he walked his dog three times a day, and called the stairs in his house his gymnasium, since he was up and down them several times a day. He also lived well into his eighties. Both men were active and alert until the end of their lives.

I also firmly believe that what's in your mind has a lot to do with how well you are. From childhood, my life has been one of a really serious illness in childhood, aftereffects from that like ligament injuries, broken bones and other things. There's been a great deal of pain in my life, physical and mental. I've had to practice mind over matter almost all of my life. I can talk myself into being sick, and most importantly, I can talk myself into being well. In the past ten or more years, I have very rarely been to a doctor. Sometimes I'm surprised that this woman who went through a period in her life when she was at the doctor's all the time for the slightest discomfort or complaint has managed so easily to convince herself that she's well to the point of being and staying that way.

There are days when I wake in the morning with much pain. I head for the computer, check out SeniorNet, and then begin to do the research necessary for the publication of my three electronic magazines, or I start to write a story or work on my latest novel. With my mind focused on something besides myself, the pain begins to go away. (With the help of Aleve or Tylenol. I don't take any medication stronger than that.) Work keeps my mind and my body healthy, and I work nearly every waking minute of every single day.

I don't dwell on the past and what I used to do. If I can't do one thing any more, I find something else to do. I don't think about success or failure in the past or in the present, or whether I'm making any sort of contribution to society, or ever have; I think about keeping busy and keeping my mind occupied all the time.

I don't know whether what I say here would apply to anyone else, but it certainly works for me.

Mal

SIMONIDES AND THE ART OF MEMORY

Painting is silent poetry,
and poetry is painting with the gift of speech.

Simonides

The History Channel showed a brand new, one hour documentary on the history of Christmas. Fascinating. Seems the holiday we celebrate today is largely an American invention and has been spread to the world from us!

Quick summary: the holiday celebrated the December 25th birth of the sun god Mithra. Mithra's birth was observed by shepherds, and later 3 wise men came from the East to worship him! The Romans held huge, week-long saturnalia, in which they got roaring drunk and caused lots of bloodshed and distruction. The early church wanted to get rid of that, but had little effect. Finally, despite the fact Jesus was most likely born in the Spring, they decided to make December 25th Christ's Mass. Still, by the time the Pilgrims came here, Christmas was a time for drunken orgies and high revels. Oliver Cromwell banned Christmas for this reason, as did our Pilgrim forefathers. Congress met on Christmas Day for their first 86 years, because it was still not a holiday! Everything was open, unless it was Sunday, and everyone worked! Then came Dickens and his Christmas Carol, which he wrote in an attempt to change people's attitudes. Then, here, a minister of the cloth wrote A Visit From St. Nicholas. Completely his invention! But it caught on, and became the family oriented holiday we celebrate today. Did you think it had always been so? NOT!

I couldn't agree with yo more about OLD but as for the rest what do I do with this head ache? a trip to the chiropractors to crunch my neck is all I"m offered. My neck is implacably OLD. and I"m almost exactly your age . . . 75 next march. interesting post and quotes though. You always are -- interesting. . . . Claire

How funny. I posted this morning about Simonides and memory, and tonight on Netscape I came across this:
" If you want to memorize anything--even a long list--use the ancient mnemonic technique called 'method of loci' that was developed by a wandering Greek poet some 2,500 years ago."
Is that coincidence, or what?

Mal

Life is so full of serendipitous events like the one Mal describes that I begin wondering if we are all truly connected in some deep way we have not discovered yet. I have had to many of these events to totally dismiss them as some do.

I took a memory course years ago that used some of the Method of Loci techniques. After 40 years I have a "list" I memorized that is still there in my memory if I want to recall it. Course now at 75 all memory is harder to access ......fp

I just have to say this before I go to bed tonight. We are such wonderful old people! I love us!

There's Justin with all of that art history knowledge I wish I had; Eloise with her passion for gerontogogy, Faith with more folk, in-your-bones wisdom than anyone I know. Robby -- well, Robby's brain is special, and at 82 he shows no signs of wanting any kind of rest, even a sixteenth beat. There's Claire who'll paint with her toes when all of her fingers give out; Mary Page who'll keep us all Annapolis straight with historical facts. And there's me ( I ) , who doesn't know much, but certainly has what's necessary to fill in the gaps with Google. Sharon with her skepticism, and all the rest of you. What an amazing crew of old codgers we are! I don't think we deserve a medal, but we certainly deserve a movie. "Look, folks, here are the hasbeens, the ones you don't see when you walk down the avenue because you think we have one and half feet in the grave. Here are the brains, the future, the vitality. Take a good look.

"If you're lucky, Socrates, and all you kids under 50, you'll end up exactly like us."

Mal

And, of course, gentle, sensitive Bubble. No words. I'm just glad that she's here.

Mal

Mary Page, you are right of course but there is something about Christmas that goes beyond the religious and beyond the commerce of business. It is the feeling of good will toward others that I like. I am glad the drunken revelries are over and that it's a holiday. Christmas is a little like St Patrick's Day. On that day everyone wants to be Irish, and so they are Irish. On Christmas, everyone wants to be a part of it. Even Scrooge learned to enjoy the day. Although we owe it all to Mithra, Dionysus, and Osirus we should always remember that it is Jesus who carries on the tradition. So, I say Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Mal, yes we are the lucky ones! I do hope they will all make it there - sane and hale. Bubble
And thanks! *blushing*

Scroll down on the page you'll access by clicking the link below to read about the Kallikantzaroi, demons who plague people at the time of the Winter Solstice and the 12 days of Christmas.

GREEK AND CRETAN CHRISTMAS CUSTOMS

"Ancient Greeks observed the Winter Solstice by celebrating the Lenaea, in which Nine Wild Women, reenacting the death and rebirth of the harvest god Dionysus, would tear a god 'stand-in' to pieces and then devour the morsels. Over time, only goat sacrifices were made and the Nine would evolve into mere mourners who witnessed the rebirth of the god."

I've decided that most people are very busy with Christmas and Christmas preparations, so I'll just come in and post trivia about Ancient Greece and other things.

I've also decided to try and re-learn algebra in the coming year. It's become obvious to me that I don't use my left brain enough, you see.

Mal

That's funny, MAL! I made that same decision several years ago, and now own texts on algebra, geometry, "Math the Easy Way", and the calculus. I can only handle a little at a time, so take small bites!

I should have known you'd get there first, Mary Page. I wonder if it's too late to ask my daughter to buy me "Algebra for Dummies" for Christmas?

Mal

This is what I do when Robby's not around.

I truly didn't expect to receive any gifts this year, since my poor daughter had to spend money on a kerosene heater for me to use the 7 1/2 days the power was off. That storm has cost her a lot.

Yesterday the Angel Soul Sisters, Marva and Carrie Burnett, came to my apartment to spend an hour and a half cleaning. Carrie came in with a coconut pie she'd baked. She's a wonderful cook and baker. Then Marva came in with a little gold wreath which has a pretty red ribbon on it. She also brought me some muffins and two petit fours. That's not all. There's a package sitting on my rocking chair that I was sternly told not to open before Christmas. Wasn't that kind and thoughtful of these two lovely women?

Then last night I called my Florida son, Rob. Some of you know that my son suffered a brain injury in a bad automobile accident in the 70's. He's tried to cover symptoms with alcohol. Last night he told me he hasn't had anything to drink for two weeks. I'm not counting on anything, but Glory Hallelujah!

Yesterday was filled with gifts and blessings.

Mal

Wonderful, MAL! And hey, I don't attempt to be first; was just marveling at the way our minds work alike. Would I could match your talents!

My Missouri daughter, who got back there from here Sunday evening, called to catch me in "Christmas Eve Gift!", but I answered the phone with that phrase and caught her, instead. It started snowing yesterday as she was leaving the grocery store with their rib roast for Christmas dinner. They now have 9 inches. Her Kansas City daughter and son-in-law and grandchildren Emily and Sam arrived Sunday, so she is all fixed and just worrying about whether the St. Louis daughter will make it through to be Home for Christmas!

I was teasing, Mary Page. Our minds do have a way of connecting, don't they?

I loved the picture of Emily and Sam in Photos Then and Now. Here's hoping the St. Louis young woman will make it for Christmas. Have they had the parade of lighted boats at Annapolis yet? Since I'm ocean addicted, that's something I'd really like to see.

I'm throwing a party in the WREX discussion on New Year's Eve, all day and all night. I hope you'll come, MP. All the rest of you Civilized Creatures are invited, too!

Frida

(Mary Page will know what that means.)

The boat light parade was held on Saturday, December 14th. My Missouri son-in-law came for a week to look at houses for sale and for my daughter's December 17th birthday (the big 50), and went with us to the parade. It was just plain heaven. The boats glide through the water so quietly, but the lights are twinkling merrily and parties of people are singing Christmas songs and carols lustily, their voices magnified by the water. Also, the lights from the boats are reflected in the water. We all wave at them and they all wave madly at us. The time and expense put into the light themes is just unbelievable. We had hula girls (not very much on theme, but loads of fun), grinches, santas, creches, wise men, roman galleys, viking ships (all aboard wore traditional attire, complete with horned helmets), loads of Christmas trees, and so on and on. I find myself breathing deep sighs of replete satisfaction at the end. Wish you could be with us, deed I do!

I'm really surprised at the number of places which have boat light parades. There's even one in Falmouth, Massachusetts on the Cape. HGTV showed several in a recent program. The boat I liked best had very tall lights elves that seemed to be walking on the water.

You watch the History Channel, Mary Page. I keep HGTV and the food network on at night while I'm working. The food network reminded me of the Italian tradition of serving seven fish dishes on Christmas Eve. I love seafood. To my surprise, my daughter has decided to serve seafood tomorrow, perhaps in the form of a bouillabaisse.

Mal

I was invited to a Polish Christmas, once. It was on January 6th, and the main dish was a Polish sausage and sourkraut. Everything was great fun and the food delicious. What was the name of the sausage? Sounded like KEY BAH SEE. I tried cooking it myself much later, and did not like it at all! But that night, it was food for the gods!

Kielbasa, Mary Page. It has to be cooked right, or it doesn't taste all that good to me. My Slovak friend, John Grech, sautéed it with onions first, then put it in a pot of well rinsed and drained sauerkraut and plain old peeled potatoes in a small amount of water. Simmer a long time until the juices have melded and the sauerkraut is a golden color; then serve.

John also made a wonderful goulash. Sauté large cubes of veal with chopped onion. Add to well rinsed and drained sauerkraut. Add real paprika, lots of it, hot or not , depending on your taste. Simmer this mixture for a long time, and serve with sour cream.

John also made Babka, a yeast bread with raisins that is eaten in Slavic countries and Russia, especially at Christmas and Easter.

Another thing he made was small turnovers made with sugar cookie dough, filled with poppy seed filling and baked.

I grew tired of turkey or roast beef at Christmas, so made Rock Cornish game hens stuffed with wild rice, or a paella. Another dish I like and made often was Chicken Niçoise. Sauté cut up pieces of chicken with onions or leeks. Add to chicken broth in which you put white wine, black and green olives, sautéed green and red peppers and herbs and simmer on top of the stove. I served this with rice.

I am Cyberspacerly, virtually cooking tomorrow's dinner!

Mal

Okay, if I could have anything I wanted for the Christmas feast, and have it all cooked and served for me, I'd order venison with red currant jelly. Mashed potatoes. Green beans. Creme caramel. And there would have to be mince pies, although I would probably not have any. Mince pie was what the English baked and served, calling them "Christmas Pie", until Oliver Cromwell outlawed Christmas. Only then did they change the name to "Mince Pie", and go right on baking and serving them at that same time every year!

VASILOPITA CHRISTMAS CAKE

I love currant jelly. There were currant bushes at the house where I grew up, and we made currant jelly every year. I'm fond of Mince Pie, but only if it has meat in it. At Christmas, I always baked mince, apple and squash pies. The squash pies were made with Hubbard squash, my favorite, not easy to find in North Carolina. I also made fruitcakes, which were doused with brandy and allowed to mature for months and months and months. Christmas cookies? Yes. I never liked making drop cookies, so made refrigerator cookies and one of a spicy dough with crushed nuts, rolled into a ball with your hands and sprinkled with powdered sugar after it's baked. I forget what they're called. And I made a wonderful steamed chocolate pudding from a very old copy of the Fanny Farmer's cookbook I have. Very old? The copyright is 1929. That's not as old as I am! I'm not crazy about plum pudding, but have made it many times. I absolutely do not like the hard sauce I made to go with it. Too sweet. Know what I like for dessert? Floating Island or Crêpes Suzette. Baba au Rhum? I like that, too.

Mal

SPANAKOPITA -- GREEK SPINACH PIE

DOLMAS, stuffed grape leaves I love them

BAKLAVA - honey cakes, too sweet for me

CHRISTMAS PORK FROM LESVOS

Thanks for indulging me on this day when I did so much cooking for many, many years.
And thanks for keeping me company, my friend Mary Page.

Mal

That Rhodos Christmas cake is really the Wise Kings crown baked in Europe on the 6th of January to commemorate the visit of the three kings to that barn in Bethlehem. The person finding the coin is crowned King for the day and can choose his queen among the guests. In France and England, they use little china figures instead of a coin and they are praised collectors items. Bubble

Dolmas are delicious. I add some minced meat fried with onions to the rice. Also squeeze a lemon or too on top of the dolmas tightly packed in a low pan. Then I bake them in a medium oven for half an hour so that all the flavors mix well together. It is tastier reheated the next day. Bubble

Now this about Ancient Greek food.
"Along the coastline, the soil was not very fertile, but the ancient Greeks used systems of irrigation and crop rotation to help solve that problem. They grew olives, grapes, and figs. They kept goats, for milk and cheese. In the plains, where the soil was more rich, they also grew wheat to make bread. Fish, seafood, and home-made wine were very popular food items. In some of the larger Greek city-states, meat could be purchased in cook shops. Meat was rarely eaten, and was used mostly for religious sacrifices."

MaryPage, thanks for the wonderful recipe links. I had the spinach pie for the first time a couple of months ago, and would love to try to duplicate it.

Re the Christmas tradition discussion: you mentioned answering the phone "Christmas Eve Gift". My mother's family always answered the phone on Xmas day by saying "Christmas Gift", but I've never heard of anybody else doing that. Do you know the origin of that tradition? I'd love to know.

Thanks,
Mary

There was a recipe on the radio this morning from a biblical cookbook and this particular one was found in the Song of Songs. I didn't catch all of it - the announcer talked really fast but it was 200 g. of lentils that you soak and then grind fine, 100 g. of flour (I assume barley flour) two eggs and possibly some oil, I didn't catch that. Fry on both sides and spread honey on them when they are finished. The anouncer noted that there wasn't a low cal option.

I'm going to my friend's home for a buffet dinner tonight. She always has a crowd - about 40 people - relatives and friends. They just set out the food and let the guests fend for themselves. I used to bring a bottle of nice wine and they said, um, well, thanks. Then one time I decided to bring home made cookies and squares and the hosts got really excited and hid them so they wouldn't have to share them so that's what I do now.

Remember the butterhorns one could buy that the restaurants staff fried in lord knows what kind of oil on the grill. I hadn't been able to find nice ones in years. I looked in my Company's Cominig Breads cookbook and there they were. They're so rich they don't need toasting and butter. I'm putting some of those into the package of goodies I'm taking tonight.

Just back from doing the Mall with my son! IT IS SNOWING HERE! We did not expect it. Big fat soft flakes! Merry Christmas!

Mary, it was MAL, not I, who gave the recipe links.

Also Mary, about "Christmas Eve Gift". It is an old custom from the Deep South. It is a game that helps get through the long hours before it is Christmas morning and gifts can be unwrapped. My whole family plays it ferociously. From one minute past twelve a.m. on Christmas Eve until Dark on Christmas Eve, you try your darnest to yell "CHRISTMAS EVE GIFT", or in some places simply Christmas Gift, to each person you spy or call on the phone, etc. The idea is that you say it first. Whoever says it first is entitled to a Christmas Eve Gift from the person who did not say it first. This gift must, if at all possible, be delivered by hand before Midnight on Christmas Eve. If not possible, it must be hand delivered the very next time you see that person you owe it to.

The gift must be wrapped, but need not be tied and should not be well wrapped. It can be something of value, but most often is a gag gift.

One of my favorite stories concerns my mother-in-law and one of her many brothers. Both dead now, they lived in Dallas, Texas and were middle aged when this happened. Driving their own vehicles, they each stopped at the same traffic light at the same time. Looking over and spying one another, my MIL pulled her senses together a millesecond before her brother did, and yelled "Christmas Eve Gift!" The light changed, and they went their separate ways.

That evening, just before darkness fell completely, John Paul showed up at my in-laws' door, a rolled-up piece of Christmas wrapping in his hand. Shoved it at my MIL.

It was the bloody, uncooked neck of their Christmas Goose!

So all's fair in Christmas Eve Gift. So far today I have caught one daughter, one is arguing with me over who caught whom, and I caught my son. My Missouri daughter, whom I caught fair and square, anticipated me and left a gift where I could find it when she told me where to look. It is a lovely crystal angel for my all-crystal tree!

So now you know!

Sorry...Thanks, Mal.

And thanks for the tradition info, MaryPage.

Mary

After a late call from the hospital last night, I found that I needed to be there at 7:30 this morning to see a patient who had a stroke. So I made a quick check with SofC and left home before 7 a.m. I have just returned home after a day of seeing patients in my office and find that I have a score of recipes that I need to add to my cook book. This will take some time so I won't have time to add some of Durant's comments until late tomorrow evening.
In the meantime, to all of you wonderful members of this family -- regardless of your faith -- have a
Quiet Peaceful Enjoyable Christmas !!

Robby

I'm glad you're home safe and sound after a long day's work, Robby. Here's a plate full of canapés and a glass of punch. Sit down and relax. No, I can't sit and chat. I'm going to play carols on the piano now.

"Deck the halls with boughs of holly. Fa la la la la la la la la !" Come on, everybody.
Let's sing!

That was great! How about this one?
"Bring a torch, Jeanette Isabella. La la la la la la la!"

You're all so wonderful ! Robby, I didn't know you could sing like that? How about getting your trumpet and playing along with me?

"God rest ye merry gentlemen. La la la la la."

We're such a good chorus here. One more, and I have to take a break. They want me to play at the Christmas Eve party over in the WREX discussion. I'll be back; don't worry about that.

"You'd better watch out. You'd better not pout. Santa Claus is coming to town TONIGHT!"

Whew, what a night! I'm getting all tired out from running back and forth to two parties. Okay, how about this one?
"Chestnuts roasting by an open fire. La la la la."

What did you say, Mary Page? Oh, no, not that! Well, if I have to . . . .
"Rudolph the Rednosed Reindeer. . . ." (Psst. I don't know the words! I'll fake the music. You sing!)

Phone for me? Hello? Oh, hi, Moxie. You're what? All right, I'll be right over.

Wouldn't you know? They're running out of punch over there in WREX, and I have to go make some more. Carry on, and save me that seat on the piano bench!

Well, that should hold 'em for a while. Thanks for saving my seat ! What would you like to sing now? Mary Page! Did you say The Messiah? Are you kidding? How about this?
"Silent Night. Holy Night . . . ."

Gosh, I almost forgot!
"Dashing through the snow in a one horse open sleigh."

It's 11:15 where I live, so I'm going to wind this gig up with a good one. I have to get my chair over by the window and watch for Santa Claus! Thanks to all of you for making Christmas Eve 2002 a very special one for me.
"I wish you a Merry Christmas. I wish you a Merry Christmas. I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!"

Quarter of twelve, and there's not a sign of him yet. As Tiny Tim said in Dickens' A Christmas Carol

God bless us, every one!

Merry Christmas, Mal and all you wonderful posters. I have been blessed with a new great grandson. He's as handsome as his great grandpa and he has almost as many wrinkles in his nose as I have. In years to come he will wish for Christmas in August so it won't interfere with his birthday.

Merry Christmas, Justin! What a lovely gift you received!

(I never should have taken that long nap. I'm wide awake, and it's after one on Christmas Day! Well, I guess I can open that present on my rocking chair, can't I? Please?)

Mal

JUSTIN What a Christmas gift to remember. Happy Day to you.

And MALRYN!God bless you!== Trevor

Bless you, Trevor !

Merry Christmas everyone from Downunder!

Justin congratulations on the birth of your new great grand baby!

Carolyn

Justin, congratulation! That is THE perfect present for Xmas!

Mal, you were great with the carols! lol May I make a request? Ave Maria.... Schubert version please... It always moves me to tears.
Do you sing Silent Night in German? I think that was the original version. Carols are the one thing I most miss in this country, with Negro Spirituals; it is totally ignored as a genre. But the BBC is there to fill the gap.

I hope you all have a jolly good time and please don't overeat of all those goodies. Bubble

Justin, you received a gift of new life! A Christmas that you will always remember.
And so nice to receive wishes from Trevor and Carolyn "down under."
Mal, you probably know just about every Christmas song there is.

Robby

but merry mary anyhow. . . . even at 5:11 AM here in CA with no snow but plenty of cheer. . . . Claire

Claire, you're up early on this Chrimas morning!! And a wonderful Christmas to you, too!

Robby

Merry Christmas, everyone!!!

I know quite a few Christmas songs, Robby. There's a lot of music singing in my head that I'll never forget. In fact, there's rarely a moment in each day when a song, sonata, jazz improv or something isn't playing up there. It's a gray Christmas morning here with very heavy winds predicted for this afternoon. Moxie in Connecticut and friends and family I have in New England are to have 15 to 20 inches of snow. That's more than a white Christmas! Stay dry and warm in the house, Moxie.

Bubble, I'm glad you told me which Ave Maria you want to hear. I'm more fond of the Bach-Gounod one myself, but the Schubert is easier to sing.

"Ave Maria. Grazia plena . . ."

Well, totally unexpectedly, I find myself home alone for Christmas!

Yesterday, my son and I were to go to his oldest sister's home for lunch. His beloved lab had a serious epilectic fit at midnight, he did not get to bed until five in the morning, and had to grab some sleep. So it was 12:35 when he finally got to me, too late to go to Anne's, an hour and a half away. We went to the Mall instead, planning to go to Debi's for Christmas Eve Dinner. The snow came, and Chip rushed me home and went off to his own home, not wanting to be away from Darth, the dog, overnight. With the snow coming down, Debi offered to send her husband to fetch me, but I did not want to be out in it, period. So I had the Old Dears over to watch Jane Austen's EMMA. I own 3 video versions of it, and they chose the Gwyneth Paltrow. Emma, age 92 on the 29th, had never seen it, and she and Mina, 98, adored it.

Got up this morning and took off in the car for Debi's for breakfast, stockings in front of the fire, and presents round the tree. Well, the rains poured down, the roads were getting quite like ponds, and my windows fogged up. I gave up less than half way along and came home, grateful to get here in one piece. Now they are saying it is not going to stop pelting down, but will instead turn to snow again. Debi almost cried when I called, and again said Steve would fetch me in the 4 wheel drive SUV and I should stay the night. Again, I said I was not going out in this again. We decided it is just a day, and we can get together another one. So here I am, dying to cause some mischief before we are called back to order.

MAL, you did well, Girlfriend, but you missed both of my favorites. For Christmas Carols, it is I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day, by Henry W. Longfellow and J. Baptiste Calkin that is my favorite. For Christmas Songs it is, hold on to your hat, Jingle Bell Rock! I also love, indeed adore, Snowfall, because it was my husband's favorite.

So return to the piano bench, please. Vite! Vite!

Mary Page, your family's going to miss you, but I don't blame you for wanting to stay home. The weather forecasts are dreadful! Here there's a front coming in, and the sun is trying to shine! We in central North Carolina are being warned to keep away from ice-storm-damaged trees because it's going to be very, very windy, and more branches might come down. The wind has started, and thick white clouds are scudding along a dark blue sky.

My daughter came in earlier with presents, whoopee! My grandson gave me a warm orange knit hat with a modernistic pattern in yellow and brown. Dorian gave me that cuddly long-sleeved undershirt I've wanted. Jim gave me a pretty calendar. Now I'll be able to see what day it is without turning my computer on! A former WREX writer in California sent me a little case with all kinds of cosmetics in it. I'll not only be warm and know the date; I'll be beautiful, too!

Dorian said we're having mussel soup, scampi and King Crab legs for dinner. Whoopee again!

You know, I've never been good at playing Rock and Roll. Boogie Woogie, stride, music like Oscar Peterson's, but rock? Uh uh. Here's a feeble attempt at Jingle Bell Rock. Hate to tell you, but I don't know the words. Does it go something like this?
"Jingle Bell Jingle Bell Jingle Bell Rock. Do do do do do do do do do do do do DO!"

No, it goes "Jingle Bell Jingle Bell Jingle Bell Rock Dodido Do Do Dodido Do"
You need an 82-year old to keep you up to date?

Robby

Hey, man, I knew a youngster like you would come through for me and fill in the gaps!
I heard the bells on Christmas Day
Their old familiar carols play.
And wild and sweet the words repeat
Of Peace on earth, good will to men.

I thought how as the day had come
The belfries of all Christendom
Had roll'd along th' unbroken song
Of Peace on earth, good will to men.

And in despair, I bow'd my head:
"There is no peace on earth," I said,
"For hate is strong and mocks the song,
Of Peace on earth, good will to men."

Then pealed the bells more loud and deep;
"God is not dead, nor doth He sleep;
The wrong shall fail, the right prevail,
With Peace on earth, good will to men."

Jingle Bell, Jingle Bell, Jingle Bell Rock! Jingle Bells Swing and Jingle Bells Ring. Snowing and blowing up bushels of Fun, now the Jingle Hop has begun! Jingle Bell, Jingle Bell, Jingle Bell Rock! Jingle Bells chime in Jingle Bell Time! Dancing and prancing in Jingle Bell Square, in the frosty air. What a bright time, it's the right time, to rock the night away. Jingle Bell time is a swell time to go gliding in a one horse sleigh! Giddyup Jingle Horse, pick up your feet! Jingle around the clock! Take that jingle to a jingle bell beat! That's the Jingle Bell Rock!

THAT'S THE JINGLE BELL ROCK!

From the Durham Herald Sun this morning.
HILLSBOROUGH -- Ronnie Morris will always remember Christmas 2002 as when he received a message from above and the call to be Santa for a little girl named Rosa.

On Dec. 17, Morris was turning into his driveway at the north end of Efland-Cedar Grove Road when he saw a small, green balloon with a something attached to it come floating just over the tops of the pine trees across from his home.

"I stopped and got the mail, and I said, ‘Well, that thing’s going to land right in the yard,’ " he said. "I thought it was some kid’s balloon from a birthday party. I walked down, and I saw it was a letter to Santa."

Morris lives in a very rural area in northern Orange County, where a balloon could have descended and snagged unnoticed by anyone. The balloon had come from a Lowe’s Food Store. The something attached was an envelope addressed "To: Santa" and with a return address of "Surry Center Head Start." Inside was a letter with a simple message written in pencil: "I want a doll."

In purple ink at the top of the letter, someone had written the name Rosa.

"All I could think about at that point was, how could I get that girl a doll," Morris said. "There must have been a reason for this to land in my yard."

The only Head Start program nearby was south on N.C. 86, so Morris drove there to see if they knew where the balloon came from. "They never even heard of it," he said.

Then Morris’ wife, Patsy got to work on the problem. She found out that the Surry Center Head Start is just south of Mount Airy, beyond Winston-Salem more than 100 miles to the west.

Patsy Morris spoke to a couple of teachers there and learned that Rosa is a 5-year-old Hispanic girl and that she and her 17 classmates had released balloons with letters to Santa at 10 a.m. that morning, six hours before Rosa’s came floating into Morris’ yard.

"It was just amazing," Morris said.

The teacher never imagined her class’s balloons would reach the hands of a human being, much less those of a kindly soul.

"It was such a beautiful sight, but we never expected any response," said Mavis Moore. "I was just doing it for the kids. When [Morris] called, it was just a miracle. I was just so tickled."

One other person, in nearby Iredell County, also called the school after finding one of the balloons. But Moore hadn’t known where Orange County is.

"I could not believe it traveled that far," she said. "You just had to see it to believe it. I got a special feeling watching the balloon travel in the air."

Morris next determined to do everything he could to get a doll to Rosa. From Moore, Patsy Morris learned that Rosa likes to comb and arrange dolls’ hair, so Ronnie Morris went looking for a doll with long hair. At Wal-Mart, he found a large Barbie doll head with long hair and combs and brushes just for children who like to play hairdresser.

He picked that doll up, but it just didn’t seem right. "That doll was only from the neck up, but to me a doll has limbs," Morris said. So he bought another Barbie doll, with limbs.

Patsy Morris bought one, too. So Rosa didn’t get just one doll. She got three.

On Monday morning, Morris drove to Mount Airy to meet Moore, who took him to Rosa’s house to give her the dolls.

After a 2 hour and 45 minute trip that included just one stop, Morris reached his destination around 9:45 a.m.

"My main objective was to see the little girl and give her the doll," Morris said. "It made my Christmas and to me was a warm feeling to be able to do that."

Few words were needed for the exchange.

"The little girl was just thrilled to death," Morris recalled. "I told her that Santa Claus had given me the letter and wanted me to help him out because he wanted her to have [the dolls] before Christmas."

"It was very touching to see her face -- to see how happy she was. She, of course, was a little shy. She’s only 5 -- but she knew how to get into those packages."

Moore said Rosa was beaming at the surprise presents and the unexpected visit from one of Santa’s helpers from afar.

"She was just smiling from ear to ear," she said. "It was a beautiful sight. It was a blessing. It truly was a blessing."

Morris and his wife couldn’t help but feel they were part of a bigger plan.

"I don’t know if you say it’s a miracle or it was meant to be, but it was something we knew we wanted to do," Morris said. "It just really made our Christmas."

Here's the gift for someone who has everything. There's a California town for sale on EBay.

Mal

I'm leaving for my daughter's house for dinner and will be back this evening.

Robby

Have a wonderful time, Robby.

Mal

What is the name of the town? It it catch my fancy, maybe I will indulge ...

Well this is a fine day cold and clear. Full of good cheer. I went out to pick up some last minute things at a discount store and found a gift I wanted for myself. It was an electronic keyboard with just 37 keys, not quite 8 octaves but the thing was a lady was playing it and she was doing great. And it was 50% off the sticker price of 29.99 so that was a good buy. But I left without it thinking it couldn't be any good for that price. I may have missed my chance to get a keyboard. I took violin when a child then as a young mother I took piano lessons for a total of seven. Quit as it was hard to fit everything in. Then in my later years I had a small organ and took a few lessons and quit. It was hard to quit but I was getting a divorce and losing the organ. Maybe I will go on e bay and look at the town and see if I want it!! My big Christmas present is a digital Kodak Camera. I took a few test pictures so I could hook it to the computer and see how it works. It is great. Cant wait to get out and take some shots of nature even if it is not so pretty here at this time of year. Well, being alone all Christmas Eve and now all Christmas day until 5:30 when Susan comes for r dinner was sort of lonely but the computer sure helps as do all the cheerful posts. Merry Christmas to all. fp.

CLICK HERE FOR SOMETHING PRETTY

Oh, Faith, do get a keyboard! I'd like to have one, too. What I'd really like some day is a synthesizer, so I could write my own music as midi files to use on web pages I build. I don't want much, do I? Lucky you to have a digital camera! Have fun with Susan.

Mal

Faith:--You weren't alone!! We were right here!! Nice that you have a digital camera. I plan "some day" to have one.

Robby

Click HERE for Christmas in Greece.

Robby

This shows how CHRISTMAS IN GREECE is beginning to change.

Robby

The link below takes you to a page which has on it two links. One is for an Mp3 file; the other is a WAV file. This is a kalanda, or Greek Christmas carol. Be patient. These are large files which may take some time to download. It's worth the wait to hear this lovely song as sung in Greek.

GREEK KALANDA

This Christmas Day a wonderful thing happened!

After our early evening dinner My visitng grandson and I were talking in my little sitting room when a sort of worried expression crossed his face I asked what was wrong and he said,"I hear a dog crying" He is a dedicated dog person, (a family trait-cats too) has alwyys had and loved Labs and knows everything about dogs. The sounds were coming from the feced in back yard of our neighbor. Kenny ran out of the house, jumped a high fence, no problem for him. an athlete who played football and rugby, and found a small dog on the steps of the pool. The poor little thing was too cold and exhaustedto climb out.

He picked up the little dog, pulled off his knit shirt and wrapped it around the miserable little creature.My son,Ken, had called our Vets'emergency number because we were afraid of hypothermia. They said to wrap him in large warm towels until his body temperature became normal. So Ken put a couple of beach towels in the dryer and my grandson cradled the small dog in his arms and after about twenty-five awfully long minutes he stopped shaking and became more alert.They took him back to his house and left a message for his owner. He is a darling Schnauzer-perhaps a miniature-very appealing. They have enormous beautiful eyes.

Agate on the opposite side of the house was open as was the back door. The dog had gotten out througha doggy door.

A precious little life was saved today. It was the best present of all.

Fortunately we live in no crime neighborhood. In another area an open gate and open back door would be easy picking

PS !--I didn't hear those cries but my grandson did!

PS 2--BUBBLES-I learned Silent Night, Holy Night in German when I was a very little girl. It was taught to me by my paternal grandfather who also taught me little French songs. I no longer remember any words but the first. "Stillege Nacht, Helige Nacht" That spelling is creatvely phonetic and probably bears no resemblence to the proper spelling or pronunciation. It was a long, long time ago.

I hope all of you enjoyed as rewarding a Christmas as mine. Hank

I am stuffed. My new great grandson got all the attention at the family dinner. Who does he think he is? Afterall I started it all didn't I? It's always wonderful to have the whole family with one at Christmas time even though one is upstaged by a newcomer. Loved every minute of it. Merry Christmas to one and all.

No, Justin, you didn't start it. That fellow up in the Heading here trying to start a fire started it.

Robby

As the holiday passes and we gradually get back to Greece and the movement toward Europe, THIS NY TIMES ARTICLE may be of interest -- showing how the population of Greece, the Balkan peninsula, and Western Europe is decreasing while apparently the population of the Orient is increasing.
If you have a problem pulling up this link, just register with the NY Times. It is FREE!

Robby

To refresh our memories, here is a reprint of the last posting which contained comments by Durant:--

"Sailing south from the Piraeus along the Attic coast, and bearing east around Sunium's templed promontory, the traveler reaches the little isle of Ceos, where, if we may believe the incredible on the authority of Strabo and Plutarch, 'there was once a law that appears to have commanded those who were sixty years of age to drink hemlock, in order that the food might be sufficient for the rest' and 'there was no memory of a case of adultery or seduction over a period of seven hundred years.

"Perhaps that is why her greatest poet exiled himself from Ceos after reaching middle age. He might have found it difficult to attain, at home, the eighty-seven years that Greek tradition gives him. All the Hellenic world knew Simonides at thirty, and when he died, in 469, he was by common consent the most brilliant writer of his time. His fame as poet and singer won him an invitation from Hipparchus, codictator of Athens, at whose court he found it possible to live in amity with another poet, Anacreon.

"He survived the war with Persia, and was chosen again and again to write epitaphs for memorials of the honored dead. In his old age he lived at the court of Hieron I, dictator of Syracuse, and his repute was then so high that in 475 he made peace in the field betwen Hieron and Theron, dictator of Acragas, as hostilities were about to begin. Plutarch, in his perennially pertinent essay on 'Should Old Men Govern?' tells us that Simonides continued to win the prize for lyric poetry and choral song into very old age.

"When finally he consented to die, he was buried at Acragas with the honors of a king."

About the New York Times article posted above: I thought Italy was a strongly Catholic country. The Catholic Church does not believe in contraception or abortion. Does this mean there's a turning away from religion and religious laws?

Mal

There's a picture of Jesus on this month's cover of Popular Mechanics magazine which looks nothing like the common perception of what Jesus looked like, based on artists' paintings of a fair skinned, long haired man. Forensic anthropologists used a first century AD Israeli skull to create what they think might be a true representation of how Jesus looked. Read an article about this and see a picture of the result of the anthropologists' work by clicking the link below.

IS THIS A TRUE PICTURE OF JESUS?

Was there not a face/head constructed from the "print" left on the Torino shroud? I don't remember if it was similar to the traditional depiction with long hair, etc? Bubble

NEWSWEEK did an article on that some time ago, MAL, and I cut the picture of Jesus out and had it on my kitchen bulletin board (a real cork one, not my fridge!) and had it there for ages and ages, before I gave it to someone. I said something about it way back when in one of these forums, and it was upsetting to some. I hate to distress anyone, and when one person said they would stick to the Jesus they knew, well, I just dropped it. In this country, if you stopped people on the street and asked them if they knew Jesus was a Jew, most would deny it! Astonishing, but I have read more than once that this is the case!

As for the Italian situation re the church, one of my dearest friends (now dead) was 100% Italian and her parents came over here. She visited Italy often, once for a whole year. She was 3 weeks younger than I and we were very close. We used to talk about this a lot. I especially remember my asking her how so many, way back, could be communists and Catholics at one and the same time. Her explanation, not necessarily, but probably, the right one, was that Italians, and also the French, are anti-clerical. They are born into the church and would not DREAM of not dying in the church, but they neither trust nor follow the dictates of the hierarchy.

Just recently, I have been reading all of the articles about the present scandals in the church here in the U.S. with great interest. I attended 2 years of convent school, and adored the nuns. The only protestant in the entire school, I walked away with the prize for religious studies! Still have the medal! Anyway, I am very interested, and some writers have been predicting that the Church in America will eventually become, in attitude, like the Europeans.

Taking that into account, and considering that, unlike Italy and France, the U.S. is not primarily Catholic, I would extrapolate further than those writers and hazard a guess that we are seeing the advent of a great withering of Papal influence here.

Continuing with Simonides:--

"He was a personality as well as a poet, and the Greeks denounced and loved him for his vices and eccentricities. He had a passion for money, and his muse was dumb in the absence of gold. He was the first to write poetry for pay, on the ground that poets had as much right to eat as anyone else. But the practice was new to Greece, and Aristophanes echoed the resentment of the public when he said that Simonides 'would go to sea on a hurdle to earn a groat.'

"He prided himself on having invented a system of mnemonics, which Cicero adopted gratefully. Its essential principle lay in arranging the things to be remembered into some logical classification and sequence, so that each item would naturally lead to the next.

"He was a wit, and his sharp repartees passed like a mental currency among the cities of Greece. But in his old age he remarked that he had often repented of speaking, but never of holding his tongue."

Artists should be paid??!!

Robby

That is a shocking thought, Artists should be paid!! It seems these ancient Greek people did think of many things to legislate that still bothers us today. I am thinking here of the Taking Hemlock at Sixty law. Wow. When I think of all the productive years that would have been lost by Grandma Moses, many of our great musicians wrote well into their eighties and conducted well into their nineties. Walt Whitman lived into his eighties too and Picasso did not reach any kind of peak until his seventies. All these artists should have been paid and most were but there are millions(well many) of very talented artists that never earn money with their productions and love their art for its own sake. Faith

#481: Funny, he doesn't look Jewish. I have seen that picture several times in different publications.

The face on the Shroud of Turin resembes Leonardo da Vinci. Some think he may have faked the shroud. But I think Leonard was clever enough to invent some sort of photographic process. Carbon testing has placed the shroud in the 12 or 1300s, I think. That would predate Leonardo.

The other thing about a shroud is that it is a winding cloth but the Shroud of Turin has a whole body on it, both back and front as if the person lay on the cloth and the rest was pulled up from his feet to his face and then pressed on the body. Mal says I'm a skeptic which I consider a compliment. So don't pay attention to my musings.

NORTHSTAR, you are not alone. I am a total skeptic as far as that shroud is concerned. Well, MAL would probably opine that I am a total skeptic, period.

and she would be right!

Durant said of Simonides:--"His muse was dumb in the absence of gold." In other words, he not only received payment for his poetry but he refused to write unless he was paid.
Do you folks believe that artists should hold out unless they are paid?

Robby

When the muse blesses you, how can you stop writing?

As an artist I can attest to the fact that people think your work isn't worth anything. They think the paint just flows out of the end of the brush and the pencil just makes marks by itself. They don't realize the work in planning and executing a piece of art. While they won't buy your stuff, they'll certainly ask for it for free to be auctioned for a good cause.

I can sell my work with no problem but I am annoyed that people in sport can command out-of-this-world, obscenely high salaries just because they have hand-eye coordination but people in the arts have to scramble to live on their earnings and have to continually justify why they deserve to be paid. There is the stereotype of the starving artist but why is an artist valued less than a baseball player?

When the Durants say of Simonides, When finally he consented to die, do they mean he did drink the hemlock? I wonder if we can find out.

I am searching all my present and former maps for Syracuse. Makes me mad, because there is something in the back of my mind that I found out eons ago and cannot remember. Anyway, there are FOUR Syracuses here in the U.S., but zero in Greece! I am doing something wrong. In the meantime, you might get a kick out of old National Geographic maps. March 1940 has written in red next to the island, "A CEAN law prohibited a citizen prolonging his life beyond Sixty." Apparently they thought this the most memorable fact about the site. December 1949 has so much more written in red all over the area that this island has been rationed to the phrase: "CEAN law forbade prolonging life beyond 60." Still the most pertinent fact!

Well, while searching for Syracuse (hey, there has to be one! Shakespeare had a couple of sets of twins from there, didn't he?), I found this that I just adored.

SYRACUSE

MAP SHOWING SYRACUSE UPPER LEFT. Type in Ancient Greece before any other words when you do a search like this. "Ancient Greece Syracuse"

Ha! Had just found that one, MAL, when I came back in triumph to announce it isn't even in Greece, and that was the thing I knew but could not pinpoint, and here you are way ahead of me! Oh well, you almost always are! Thanks! I figure that is Sicily, what?

Not to quibble with Archimedes but isn't displacing water a volume displacement, not a weight displacement. The crown, whatever its compostion would displace the same amount of water. But the weight would be different if its composition was pure gold as opposed to gold and silver.

I found an epitaph by Simonides in my Greek textbook:

 
If the best merit be to lose life well, 
To us beyond all else that fortune came; 
In war, to give Greece liberty, we fell, 
Heirs of all time's imperishable fame.

TIMELINE ANCIENT SICILY

SIMONIDES QUOTES

DACTYLIC HEXAMETER

I took my doctorate from Syracuse University. Just thought I would throw that in so you all realize my Ancient Greek heritage.

Robby

"When Hieron challenged Simonides to define the nature and attributes of God, he asked for a day's time to prepare his answer. The next day he begged for two days more, and on each occasion doubled the period that he required for thought. When at last Hieron demanded an explanation, Simonides replied that the longer he pondered the matter, the more obscure it became."
Not that I am looking for a discourse on religion, but has anyone here had a similar experience whether on that topic or any other?
I'll start the discussion. I have often wondered about women.

Robby

Well now, Robby, we have wondered, more than once, about you, too.

I did realize your antiquity, but believed it to be Etruscan/Viking.

"Simonides compares women now to foxes, asses, pigs, and the changeful sex, and swears that no husband has ever passed through a day without some word of censure from his wife."

of course. . . . time and materials like anyone else in the construction business and don't forget labor usually the most costly part of the deal. When an artist works for pay he is a craftsman fulfilling a comission when he works for himself it is a labor of love and if commisioned some of the love drops out so it's better that fine art be bought after the artist has finished his/her statement. by then he she is done with it anway. . . . claire

Claire has the answer I support about an artist's compensation. If the artist works on commission he should be paid what ever fee can be negotiated.

On the other hand, when an artist works for himself, he expects no compensation other than the joy of creation however, the market process often determines the monetary value of such a work. The peculiar workings of critics, government, press, and public response often create renown for a work that fixes its monetary value well beyond its long term significance.

A good example of the working of this mechanism can be found in the "Piss Christ". Here is a simple idea, A crucifix in a glass jar of urine. The Brooklyn Museum exhibited the work. Senator Helm criticized the NEA for contributing to the exhibition as a sponsor, The Mayor of New York, Rudy G. made some negative comments and threatened to cut off funds to the Museum, if the they did not cease to exhibit the work. Brooklyn refused and the press had lots of fun with Rudy and Senator Helms. The Director of the NEA was replaced by someone the Senator thought more appropriate.

As a result, the value of the "Piss Christ" soared. It was just a minor curiosity before the bruhaha and valued at little more than construction costs however, when it was all over, millions of people who normally would not walk across the street to see a work of art had seen the little jar and many were ready to pay millions for the thing were it to be offered at Christies.

The point is that it is the market mechanism that determines the value of a personal work of art and neither the artist nor the buyer has very much to say about its monetary worth.

The image of Christ has been subject to considerable variation over the centuries. There is a catacomb work and one at Dura Europus that depicts him as a sheppard boy shouldering a lamb. He is youthful and beardless.

There are some images that are of Dionysus but have been attributed to Christ. The "Pantocrator" found in the Orthodox churches and in Venice depict a much darker and older Christ than we are used to in the west.

The bearded Christ begins to appear after the Ottonian period. Several eigth century Ivories exist which show the man-god without beard. Crucifixion images have tended to stress linearity of the body making him appear long and slender.

The image depicted on the mechanics magazine is clearly not one of an American wasp. He looks more like a cartoon of a Bin Laden lieutenant. However, the image is probably a closer approximation of a middle eastern peasant type than any we have previously seen.

The New York Times article simply confirms what has been well known for many years. France and Italy contain large contingents of anticlerical people. Since the 1930's and the rise of fascism followed by strong communist activity, Italians have moved away from allowing the Church to rule their lives. In France, since the Revolution, the church has been an empty estate. Church buildings, the old cathedrals are State monuments. Services are not conducted in these buildings. In Germany, the Church and the Faschist Government got along better. So that anticlericalism is not as prevalent there as elsewhere in Europe.

My Goodness, it's late. I think I will go to bed.

I pondered much on why we are alive and why we think we are the most important representatives of all.

Justin, The image on the Mechanics magazine, to me, did not look semite at all but more like a Greek boor. I am not being pejorative, even my surname is Greek. The face is too squerish. Bubble

I have always imagined Christ as a man none would look at twice in the street. He was not huge of stature just an average height and build he would have dark hair and olive skin tone, a strong nose and probably a beard. It does give a description in the bible and he certainly would not have looked like the artists impressions we so often see!

Carolyn

"A morning's sail west of Paros is Siphonos, famous for its mines of silver and gold which were owned by the people. The yield was so rich that the island could set up at Delphi the Siphnian Treasury with its placid caryatides, erect many another monument, and yet distribute a substantial balance among the citizens at the end of every year.
"In 524 a band of freebooters from Samos landed on the island and exacted a tribute of a hundred talents -- the equivalent of $600,000 today.
"The rest of Greece accepted this heroic robbery with the equanimity and fortitude with which men are accustomed to bear the misfortunes of their friends."
Imagine -- a government which pays you each year!

Robby

Let's invade Syphonos!!! We will share with all the SNers!

"The Dorians, too, colonized the Cyclades, and tamed their warlike spirits to terrace the mountain slopes patiently. Moving east and then south, the Dorians conquered Thera and Crete, and from Thera sent a further colony to Cyrene.
A few of them settled in Cyprus where, from the eleventh century, a small colony of Arcadian Greeks had struggled for mastery against the old Phoenician dynasties. The Dorians were but a minority of the Greek population in Cyprus, but in Rhodes and the southern Sporades and on the adjoining mainland they became the ruling class. Rhodes prospered in the centuries between Homer and Marathon, though its zenithy would not come until the Hellenistic age.
"Opposite Cnidus lay the island of Cos, home of Hippocrates and rival of Cnidus as a center of Greek medical science. Apelles the painter would be born here, and Theocritus the poet."

Robby

As we continue on with the Great Migration, let us move on to

The Ionian Dodecapolis

Running northwest of Caria for some ninety miles was the strip of mountainous coastland, twenty to thirty miles wide, anciently known as Ionia. Here, said Herodotus, 'the air and climate are the most beautiful in the whole world.'

"Its cities lay for the most part at the mouths of rivers, or at the ends of roads, that carried the goods of the hinterland down to the Mediterranean for shipment everywhere."

Robby

MAP IONIAN CITY STATES

PICTURES OF IONIAN RUINS. Click magnifying glass to access a larger picture and information about the site

An excellent map of the Ionic states, Mal, showing the city of Miletus on the coast at the mouth of a river.

Robby

PEOPLE OF IDEAS IN ANCIENT GREECE

"The site of Miletus had been inhabited by Carians from Minoan days. When, about 1000 B.C., the Ionians came there from Attica, they found the old Aegean culture, though in a decadent form, waiting to serve as the advanced starting point of their civilization.
"They brought no women with them to Miletus, but merely killed the native males and married the widows. The fusion of cultures began with a fusion of blood.
"Like most of the Ionian cities, Miletus submitted at first to kings who led them in war, then to aristocrats who owned the land, then to 'tyrants' representing the middle class. Under the dictator Thrasybulus, at the beginning of the sixth century, industry and trade reached their peak, and the growing wealth of Miletus flowered forth in literature, philosophy, and art. Wool was brought down from the rich pasture lands of the interior, and turned into clothing in the textile mills of the city.
"Taking a lesson from the Phoenicians and gradually bettering their instruction, Ionian merchants established colonies as trading posts in Egypt, Etaly, the Propontis, and the Euxine.
"Miletus alone had eighty such colonies, sixty of them in the north. From Abydos, Cyzicus, Sinope, Olbia, Trapezus, and Dioscurias. Miletus drew flax, timber, fruit, and metals, and paid for these with the products of her handicrafts. The wealth and luxury of the city became a proverb and a scandal throughout Greece. Milesian merchants, overslowing with profits, lent money to enterprises far and wide, and to the municipality itself.
"They were the Medici of the Ionian Renaissance."
Among the many things I have come to realize as I have moved through The Story of Civilization is the "temporariness" of the age in which I live. In one sentence, Durant speaks of an era led by warriors, another era led by aristocrats, then another era led by "tyrants" representing the middle class. Decades and centuries fly by. Days, months, and even years mean nothing. I wonder how many sentences in future historic books will be taken up in describing even such a catastrophic event as the destruction of the Twin Towers.
Durant describes the old Aegean culture as one "waiting" to serve as the advanced starting point of another civilization. Are we in the 21st Century the starting point of another civilization and are we just "waiting?"
Robby

I quite agree, ROBBY. The study of history puts galactic sized space between us and the things we may as children have felt to be immutable. Matters so many people become riled up over come to seem so trivial. Life as we know it is most definitely temporary. The language we speak, the music we love, the literature we read, the religion we practice, all these we might not find here at all, were we granted the gift of checking in 200 years hence.

It has become my philosophy that the best we can do with our lives is to give our very best effort to every enterprise we enter into and to every life form we encounter, and to try to take as much Joy as possible from every moment of our days. I fervently believe if all peoples lived this way, life on this planet would be vastly improved for all.

Mary Page you are right about joy being the point of living. At least for me it is and after 3/4 of a century I am one crone that does take joy in waking in the morning, my first cup of coffee is the best thing so great I can't describe how I feel drinking it and checking out my big window the sky and the weather and thanking my idea of the divinity for another day. If we think life is short yes how short are ages, eras of history. In such a large compendium as Durant has attempted of course he must make them "fly by" yet the people still seem to be the exact same people we have today. So far it is not clear what the answer to Voltaire's question is, unless it is that we are not yet fully Civilized.eh? I came across another Voltaire quote that has relevance to history. "The fate of a nation has often depended upon the good or bad digestion of a prime minister."

Voltaire faith

"The crossroads of trade are the meeting place of ideas, the attrition ground of rival customs and beliefs. Diversities beget conflict, comparison, thought. Superstitions cancel one another, and reason begins. Here in Miletus, as later in Athens, were men from a hundred scattered states -- mentally active through competitive commerce, and freed from the bondage of tradition by long absences from their native altars and homes.
"Milesians themselves traveled to distant cities, and had their eyes opened by the civilizations of Lydia, Babylonia, Phoenicia, and Egypt. In this way, among others, Egyptian geometry and Babylonian astronomy entered the Greek mind. Trade and mathematics, foreign commerce and geography, navigation and astronomy, developed hand in hand.
"Meanwhile wealth had created leisure. An aristocracy of culture was growing up in which freedom of thought was tolerated because only a small minority could read. No powerful priesthood, no ancient and inspired text limited men's thinking. Even the Homeric poeems, which were to become in some sense the Bible of the Greeks, had hardly taken yet a definite form. In that final form their mythology was to bear the imprint of Ionian skepticism and scandalous merriment.
"Here for the first time thought became secular, and sought rational and consistent answers to the problems of the world and man."
Any similarities in our time? Any crossroads of trade you know of that became a "meeting place of ideas?" Any cities which were or are the centers of conflict, comparison, and thought? Where is competitive commerce creating mental activity? Who in our civilization are absent from home for long periods of time and, in that way, are breaking with tradition?
What ideas from other cultures are entering our minds? Is there any ancient text which is limiting our thinking? Do we have the equivalent of "Ionian skepticism and scandalous merriment?" Are we seeking rational and consistent answers to the problems of man?
Durant gives us much to chew on in this passage.

Robby

For those who have tried and failed to obtain a copy of this book, it is available in audio tapes. One company that carries it is AUDIO EDITIONS. You can call 1 800 231 - 4261 and request their free catalog. I listen to audio books while I walk, so I have a membership with Audio Editions that costs me $25 a year, but gives me a free $29.95 audio book AND 10% off of anything I buy all year.

You might try Barnes & Noble here in SeniorNet first, to see if they have it and you can earn SeniorNet their 7%. If they don't, Audio Editions has it for $52.00. It consists of 20 cassette tapes. It is their catalog number E9T541u. They also have a number of the later volumes of this series we are doing. Volume 3, Caesar & Christ comes next, and it is also $52.00 and consists of 22 cassette tapes.

It appears that participants here want to continue on in the Story of Civilization series.
Barnes & Noble (which as MaryPage says gives Senior Net a percentage of the sale) has the next volume in hard cover, Caesar and Christ, for $14. My estimation is that Life of Greece will come to a completion around March. Ordering the third volume now might make sense.

Robby

But SeniorNet only gets a cut if you order on line through this site. Click on the Barnes & Noble thingy up top here (what do you call it, Robby?) and they will know you are ordering from SeniorNet. At least, I have been told that is the case. Beats me how it works!

SeniorNet is an affiliate of Barnes and Noble. A computer code shows whenever anyone orders a book through the B and N logo here on SeniorNet; then a small percentage of the sales price accumulates which is sent to SeniorNet. Sonata is also an affiliate of Barnes and Noble, but I have yet to have a book ordered from that electronic magazine.

Mal

Yes, click onto the thingy (how about icon?) and order in that way.

Robby

At one time Boston was a center of commerce. It also was a center of intellectual thought and was known as the Athens of this country. I think it's hard today to pinpoint just one area in such a way.

With no intent to offend anybody I'll say that after reading Our Oriental Heritage it seemed to me that certain ancient religious texts held back intellectual questioning and thought (and still do).

There is a good, healthy skepticism among some here in the United States. There'd better be. Without questioning laws and principles and the nature of life as it has become, there can be no real understanding or growth, in my opinion.

Mal

Mal names Boston. Any other suggestions as to cities which might be considered the "Athens" or "Miletus" of our time?

Robby

Robby:

Couldn't any port of trade be considered an "Athens" or "Melitus"?

I suppose, Moxie, but maybe some ports may stand out in your mind.

Robby

Today New York City and London have all the elements you mentioned in your Post 520, Robby. There are more.

Mal

And Hong Kong for the rest of the world and partially for us too here. We do get a totally different commercial perception from their trade center of the world. Some might say Tokyo after occupation ended became a new center of world trade, thought, and growth. In a like manner Amsterdam was the modern equivalent of the old Melitus in my mind. Faith

After the big exposition Paris was the centre for artists, writers, philosophers, fashion, and of course gastronomy. France had a huge influence on the francophonie, all the countries speaking French in the world. It seems to be loosing that place lately. Bubble

Somehow I can't think of New York City, Boston, London, Hong Kong, and Paris as all being in the same "basket" and spreading science and philosophy to the world (as indicated in the GREEN quotes) but I don't know why I have that problem.

Robby

You'll note that I said "Boston at one time . . ." That time was in the 1800's, and it did, indeed, spread science and philosophy to a great part of the world in that era. Not today; nor do any of the other contemporary cities mentioned equate to Melitus thousands of years ago. I wonder if there's any one place now that does?

Mal

France certainly spread its language, knowledge, art and philosophy in all its colonies in Africa and Oceania, Belgium, Luxemburg were certainly influenced by their powerful neighbor. As Mal said, at one time. It is losing ground in Africa with the independence of those countries

Speaking of spreading culture far and wide, do not (repeat NOT) miss the current issue of WREX Magazine edited by our own Mal. Included in the list of illustrious writers are our own Sea Bubble and Carolyn (Kiwi).

Robby

And Moxie! Even though her "New Years, Anyone!" byline says Marie DiMauro Fredrickson.

Thank you, Robby.

Mal

Moxie!! My apologies!! I didn't know your complete name.
Those Ancient literate Greeks would have been proud of us. Please click onto the link above and spend an enjoyable hour reading the Magazine. Then come back to us!!!

Robby

"The hoary wisdom of Egyptian priests and Persian Magi, perhaps even of Hindu seers, the sacerdotal science of the Chaldeans, the poetically personified cosmogony of Hesiod, were mingled with the natural realism of Phoenician and Greek merchants to produce Ionian philosophy. Greek religion itself had paved ther way by talking of Moira, or Fate, as ruler of both gods and men. Here was that idea of law, as superior to incalculable personal decreed, which would mark the essential difference between science and mythology, as well as between despotism and democracy.
"Man became free when he recognized that he was subject to law. That the Greeks, so far as our knowledge goes, were the first to achieve this recognition and this freedom in both philosophy and government is the secret of their accomplishment, and of their importance in history."
Being subject to something leads to freedom? Doesn't that sound a bit like "1984?"

Robby

Freedom is Slavery.

- - - George Orwell in "1984"

Robby

Apology accepted not many seniornetters know my real name!

Freedom is a great responsibility. If you don't want to take responsibility for your own and your country's actions, stay shackled under a dictator who will do your thinking for you. Don't ask any questions. Do as you're told. Put your brain on a back burner for life. Don't complain to your neighbor about your lot because that kind of complaining might get you killed.

If you think freedom is a good idea and you do want to assume the burden of responsibility it brings, take action when you see wrongs being done. Vote. Write to the people in government who represent you. Cherish and protect your rights. Make your voice heard.

Now I'm going to go and do just that. The "slavery of freedom" is far less an evil than any other kind.

Mal

the trouble with this site is that I would like to give it all my attention and my plate is slopping over right now with art and beginning writing. I'll be back. this is a great discussion. . . . claire

Why did Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Protagorus, Democritus, Pythagorus, Demosthenes, and others with similar skills, appear at this time in history and in Magna Grecia?

Some of the reasons are evident. Trade brings in ideas from distant lands. Miletus was at the delta of a river system feeding from the interior. Commercial traffic moved from the interior and to the interior through Miletus making the city a collection place for ideas and foreign products.

New york City was and is such a collection place. Great Unversities flourish in New York City. World class museums collect the art and artifacts of the world in New York City. I grew up in that cultural mecca and have missed being part of it's power for the many years I have been away. The city lies in the cross roads of two major rivers that flow from the interior. It attracts the trade of the world to it's harbor. New ideas from around the world continue to pass through New York City before reaching the US hinterland.

Unfortunately, some new ideas never pass the Battery. They are held up by antigue, authoritarian, inspired writings. The Greeks, from the 6th century forward were not limited by such inspired guide books. In the Greek world, secular wisdom prevailed and the free mind of man made some strides in human thought that have been duplicated only here and there in the centuries that followed.

Twenty five hundred years have passed since the secular time of the Greeks and I can not name more than 100 great thinkers of comparable stature. That comes to four great thinkers every century. Who were the four great thinkers of the twentieth century? John Dewey,John Maynard Keynes, W. Edwards Deming, and Ludwig Von Mises are my candidates. Are there any challengers?

JUSTIN, I see you are heavily into economists, as being the great thinkers of the 20th Century. I do not know just how original the ideas of any you mentioned might have been, but I suspect their ideas were 'in the air',for years previously, and they merely gave coherent expression to them.

My candidates for original thinkers of the 20th century, would have to include Einstein, Godel and Turing.== Trevor

OK -- We're off and running -- GREAT THINKERS -- John Dewey, John Maynard Keynes, W. Edwards Demming, Ludwig Von Mises, Einstein, Godel, and Turing versus Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Protagorus, Democritus, Pythagorus, and Demosthenes. Granted -- we haven't yet gotten to those Ancient Greek thinkers yet but we will. In the meantime, as we examine Miletus and similar cities, we can simultaneously ferret out what we see as the reason for the source of creative thinkers and ideas.
Any other great thinkers pop up in your minds? And, perhaps more importantly, what brought these thinkers into existence?
Claire, may I suggest that you have your priorities confused? Cut down to one meal a day, eliminate house chores, and ignore time taken to pay your bills and you will have more time for this scintillating discussion group.

Robby

Durant continues:--

"Since life proceeds by heredity as well as by variation, by stabilizing custom as well as by experimental innovation, it was to be expected that the religious roots of philosophy would form as well as feed it, and there should remain in it, to the very end, a vigorous element of theology.

"Two currents run side by side in the history of Greek philosophy -- one naturalistic, the other mystical. The latter stemmed from Pythagoras, and ran through Parmenides, Heracleitus, Plato, and Cleanthes to Plotinus and St. Paul.

"The other had its first world figure in Thales, and passed down through Anaximander, Xenophanes, Protagoras, Hippocrates, and Democritus to Epicurus and Lucretius.

"Now and then some great spirit -- Socrates, Aristotle, Marcus Aurelius -- merged the two currents in an attempt to do justice to the unformulable complexity of life.

"But even in these men the dominant strain, characteristic of Greek thought, was the love and pursuit of reason."

The underlining is mine.

Robby

Isn't that what we all seek? The leading thread, le fil conducteur...

Is that so -- that all people pursue reason?

Robby

Christ is the greatest thinker of all times, in my opinion. His teaching is still influencing the world even after 2000 years.

In the Western World, to me Paris is/was the most creative city on earth, not only because of its location on the river Seine - although geography has a tremendous influence on creativity - but perhaps because France had developed such artistic achievement during the reign of the great Kings of France, with the help of the church obviously, that France’s artistic development became the envy of neighboring countries as far away as Russia who adopted its language in court, copied its architecture and venerated its great writers. Voltaire whom the Great Catherine of Russia admired enough to buy his entire library was perhaps in ricochet, the spark that ignited the Russian revolution.

I am tempted to say that the Greek language is a shaper of ideas because of its accuracy in transferring thoughts into words. It spilled northward and was the base, along with Latin, of most European languages which great thinkers used to mold the world we live in today.

Eloïse

Regarding Paris being a creative city, I will give a very very small example in the overall scheme of things. At the end of the war, I went to school in Paris for a few months. The city, like all of France, had undergone years of deprivation. Not only food but clothing and textiles of all sorts. Nothing new could be found or bought.

Very shortly after Paris was freed, women across the city began to appear wearing the most stylish and beautiful outfits you could imagine. Nothing new -- only new ways of using the old. The physical appearance of these women was striking! I will always remember that.

Robby

Eloise, I am beginning to think that languages are indeed an essential factor in developing intellectual capacities. The mind seems to gain more scope with additional languages. The gymnastics of translating or finding correspondences in another tongue apparently develops a sharpness otherwise absent. It certainly helps for learning to define one thoughts and ideas. The French continued to teach Latin and Greek long after this seemed "dated" elsewhere. Bubble

I do not believe we seek reason. I wish we did! But it is only too apparent we seek comfort. We look for explanations of everything and anything, in a manner which will give us comfort and allow those answers to anesthetize our innate anxiety.

The Durants recognized this only too well. See page 135, for only one of hundreds of examples. No powerful priesthood, no ancient and inspired text limited men's thinking; And then, speaking of sixth century B.C.E. Greece, Here for the first time thought became secular, and sought rational and consistent answers to the problems of the world and man. * * Similar movements however, appeared in India and China in this sixth century B.C.

Interesting that it seemed to be time for rational thought to crop up on the planet. We will find, as we walk through the 26 centuries we have yet to explore, that men prefer the anesthesia of the familiar explanatory stories to what they perceive as the pain of truthful reality. When and wherever logical thinking begins to hold sway in education and governance, frightened men gather to vent their fears of losing their cherished sense of consolation. Reassuring one another and encouraged by a sense of being the majority in numbers, they then swarm down on those engaged in lucid argumentation and experimentation and put out the lights!

Thomas Paine a great thinker along with the best of them in my opinion and a definite influence on our founding fathers thinking, including Ben Franklin. Oh he was considered provincial by the "philosophers" of Europe sure, but it has always been the thing to do, to make fun of Americans.fp

"Nothing new -- only new ways of using the old."
Isn't that what we've seen over and over since we began discussing The Story of Civiliization?

Among those of us here the choice of great thinkers seems to be a personal one. Keeping that in mind, I'll say Buddha, Leonardo Da Vinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Einstein and Jonas Salk. There are many, many others.

I have the uncanny and uncomfortable feeling that we are witnessing right now a great attempt on the part of those whose ability to reason is hampered by limitations that are truly ancient to bring down others whose reasoning is different and more progressive. I also see people in a position of power among the latter lapsing into what I do not call "reasonable" modes of action. It's fascinating to watch this repetition of history during my own lifetime.

It is also one of the saddest statements about human beings I've ever seen and almost breaks my heart.

Mal

Once again, Agreed, MAL!

But hey, guys, try again! The question Justin posted was who were the FOUR greatest thinkers of the TWENTIETH century! Work harder!

An impossible task! I am having a terrible time eliminating people! Einstein, Gandhi, Hawking, Edison, John XXIII. YOU pick only 4!

And while we are discussing Great Thinkers of our time, let us keep up with Durant regarding his comments on this subject:--

"Thales was born about 640, probably at Miletus, reputedly of Phoenician parentage, and derived much of his education from Egypt and the Near East. Here, as if personified, we see the transit of culture from East to West. He appears to have engaged in business only so far as to provide himself with the ordinary goods of life. Everyone knows the story of his successful speculation in oil presses. Aristotle tells the story:--

"'They say that Thales, perceiving by his skill in astrology (astronomy) that there would be great plenty of olives that year, while it was yet winter hired at a low price all the oil presses in Miletus and Chios, there being no one to bid against him. But when the season came for making oil, many persons wanting them, he all at once let them upon what terms he pleased. And raising a large sum of money by that means, convinced them that it was easy for philosophers to be rich if they chose it.'

"Outside of the above, he gave himself to study, with the absorbed devotion suggestd by the tale of his falling into a ditch while watching the stars. Despite his solitude, he interested himself in the affairs of his city, knew the dictator Thrasybulus intimately, and advocated the federation of the Ionian states for united defense against Lydia and Persia."

A philosophic (thinking) capitalist?

Robby

THALES OF MELITUS

"There is nothing great about earth except man. There is nothing great about man except his mind."

- - - Sir William Hamilton

"The most beautiful experience we can have is of the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder is as good as dead.
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and in the most primitive form are accessible to our minds. It is this knowledge and the emotion that constitute true religiosity."

- - - Albert Einstein

"A multitude of words is no proof of a prudent mind."

"The past is certain, the future obscure."

"Know thyself."

Thales

I'll add to the group of thinkers: Bertrand Russel and Winston Churchill. I was going to add Ghandi but he's already been taken.

We are put on earth to make it a better place for everyone to live.

I see I must find my philosophy textbook. I noticed that philosophers were often mathematicians too. Are we to understand that Thales bought futures on the olive market? There truly is nothing new under the sun.

"As some Greek myths made Oceanus the father of all creation, so Thales made water the first principle of all things, their original form and their final destiny. Perhaps, says Aristotle, he had come to this opinion from observing 'that the nutriment of everything is moist, and that the seeds of everything have a moist nature, and that from which everything is generated is always its first principle.
"Or perhaps he believed that water was the most primitive or fundamental of the three forms -- gas, liquid, solid -- into which, theoretically, all substances may be changed. The significance of his thought lay not in reducing all things to water, but in reducing all things to one.
"Here was the first monism in recorded history. Aristotle describes Thales' view as materialistic. But Thales adds that every particle of the world is alive, that matter and life are inseparable and one, that there is an immortal 'soul' in plants and metals as well as in animals and men. The vital power changes form, but never dies.
"Thales was wont to say tht there is no essential difference between living and dead. When someone sought to nettle him by asking why, then, he chose life instead of death, he answered, 'Because there is no difference.'
"In old age he received by common consent the title of sophos, or sage. When Greece came to name its Seven Wise Men, it placed Thales first. Being asked what was very difficult, he answered, in a famous apophthegm, 'To know thyself.' Asked what was very easy, he answered, 'To give advice.' To the question, what is God? he replied, 'That which has neither beginning nor end.' Asked how men might live most virtuously and justly, he answered, 'If we never do ourselves what we blame in others.'
"He died, says Diogenes Laertius, 'while present as a spectator at a gymnastic contest, being worn out with heat and thirst and weakness, for he was very old.'"
Robby

Fourteen twentieth century thinkers have been offered as candidates for the list of top four. Not a weak start. The list contains three economists, two physicists, two political persons, four mathematicians, one religious person, one medical thinker, one educational philosopher.

We may expect more great thinkers in our century than in earlier centuries because people in this century tended to be guided more by the "rule of law" than those in previous centuries.

The average of four great thinkers per century that I calculated in my last post does not seem to hold up very well, today. That is caused by an absence of serious thinkers in the thousand years preceding the Renaisance.There may be only a handful in these thousand years and most were supressed. Think of poor Abelard.

The Greeks we look at now, those of the sixth century, are those who first recognized the "rule of law" as the social element that made them free and so they were free in government and in philosophy. Thus the rule of law makes us free to think and to explore new ideas, and new ways to accomplish the desired ends in life. The Greeks were only the first. We are their heirs. We must not discard our inheritance by clinging to the old ways, to the old solutions offered to the face of uncertainty.

Justin tells us "We may expect more great thinkers in our century than in earlier centuries because people in this century tended to be guided more by the "rule of law" than those in previous centuries. The rule of law makes us free to think and to explore new ideas, and new ways to accomplish the desired ends in life."
I am wondering as I consider this -- what percentage of people around the globe live under the "rule of law?" And are there more "thinkers" in those nations than in the lawless societies? Does someone have to also be a "doer" in order to to be considered a "thinker?"

Robby

This ARTICLE IN THIS MORNING'S NY TIMES may interest those of us here who discussed Hindu history in "Our Oriental Heritage."

Robby

I wanted to find the proper pronunciation of Thales and found THIS.

Robby

Sad. So Sad.

Dreadful to see societies taking huge strides backwards.

However, this is just another one of many instances of a peoples scurrying back into an imagined time and pulling it around them like a comforting blanket, then using it to commit crimes against any not part of the group under the blanket.

I feel like Emma in, er, well, EMMA. The "I love John", "I hate John" bit. I love History, and I hate History. In this study we have to hold up a mirror and look at who we really are as a species. Sometimes what we see there is more than the stomach can take.

In choosing the 4 greatest thinkers of the 20th century, I think we should be careful not to be guided by our preferences in people or causes. I found it particularly hard to think of examples from other cultures. The litmus test should be how big, wide, deep and lasting a difference these people made for all of us.

"Anaximander, though he too can be guilty of astronomic bizarreries forgivable in an age without instruments, advanced on Thales by conceiving the earth as a cylinder freely suspended in the center of the universe, and sustained only by being equidistant from all things. The sun, moon, and stars, he thought, moved in circles around the earth.
"To illustrate all this, Anaximander, probably on Babylonian models, constructed at Sparta a gnomon, or sundial, on which he showed the movement of the planets, the obliquity of the ecliptic, and the succession of solstices, equinoxes, and seasons.
"The ecliptic (so called because eclipses of the sun and moon take place in it) is the great circle made by the apparent annual path of the sun through the heavens. Since the plane of this circle or ecliptic is also the plane of the earth's orbit, the obliquity of the ecliptic is the oblique angle between the plane of the earth's equator and the plane of its orbit around the sun.
"With the collaboration of his fellow Milesian, Hecataeus, he established geography as a scienc by drawing -- apparently upon a tablet of brass -- the first known map of the inhabited world."
Mankind moves on!

Robby

"The Boundless seems to have played a role in Anaximander's account of the origin of the cosmos. Its eternal movement is said to have caused the origin of the heavens. Elsewhere, it is said that 'all the heavens and the worlds within them' have sprung from 'some boundless nature'. A part of this process is described in rather poetic language, full of images, which seems to be idiosyncratic for Anaximander: 'a germ, pregnant with hot and cold, was separated [or: separated itself] off from the eternal, whereupon out of this germ a sphere of fire grew around the vapor that surrounds the earth, like a bark round a tree'. Subsequently, the sphere of fire is said to have fallen apart into several rings, and this event was the origin of sun, moon, and stars. There are authors who have, quite anachronistically, seen here a kind of foreshadowing of the Kant-Laplace theory of the origin of the solar system. Some sources even mention innumerable worlds (in time and/or in space), which looks like a plausible consequence of the Boundless as principle. But this is presumably a later theory, incorrectly read back into Anaximander."

DIAGRAM OF ANAXIMANDER'S COSMOS

I took it upon myself to determine at the end of this year 2002 what I had done during my lifetime -- if anything -- to add to the progress of the human race.

First of all, I have lived almost 57 years longer than any doctor ever said I would. That gave me time, though, which was only partly up to me. What I am had a lot to do with it. I have married, borne and raised three children who gave me five grandchildren, and have done my duty when it comes to the procreation of the human race.

I have thought deeply through the years, struggling to overcome barriers put on me by the prejudice and narrow vision of those who raised me, people who inherited limitations from those who came before them, so I could advance reason and civilization in my small way.

The thought of war was instilled in me when I was very young, and nothing I’ve ever done has prevented this deadly, negative phenomenon. I’ve sung, and I’ve written, and I’ve published my views and the views of others in the length of time I’ve lived -- to no avail.

I’ve accomplished nothing as far as historians are concerned, except join a myriad of nameless thinkers who came before me and who will succeed me in this quiet, anonymous quest for reason and wisdom.

In practically every civilization visited in "Our Oriental Heritage" religion in one form or another was encountered. The Ancient Greeks, in some of their cultures, emphasized or neglected religion to varying degrees. Participants here may be interested in reading this article from TODAY'S NEW YORK TIMES on one theory of the evolution of religion per se.
As you react to it, please keep in mind that in this discussion group, we refrain from prosylytizing our own religion or lack thereof, or commenting directly about any other person's religion. This article, however, may stir memories relating to the effect that various religions had on some of the ancient civilizations.

Robby

After reading and discussing many different kinds of religion in this discussion, are we able to accept that there can be a "nice atheist", as stated in the article Robby posted? Did the Ancient Greeks have a "God"? On what, if not religion, was their philosophy founded? Laws and reason are not gods . . . . Are they?

I have read Elaine Pagel's books. Fascinating history.

Reading Our Oriental Heritage gave us the information we needed to see that religions evolve. It was easy to see where various beliefs originated and then were adapted to the then current needs of the people. This keeps happening. Now that we are sophisticated (sage like?)and the biblical mysteries can be explained in scientific terms, religion has become spiritual and the allegories in the bible become lessons rather than fact. Robby: with your permission, I am going to post your article in the Religious Folder because people there will find it interesting.

Thales was first off the mark with his explanation that everything coming from water. We now know that life originated in water (pond scum, I'm told)The Greek elements were fire, water, air and earth. I'm still looking for the philosophy textbook.

I'd like to add two more names to the mix of thinkers for the twentieth century: Karl Marx and Mao Tse Tung. You may not agree with what they wrote but can't deny the effect they had on a huge proportion of the population.

Martin Luther King, Sigmund Freud, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harriet Tubman, Nelson Mandela.

North Star:--You are welcome to post that "evolution" article in the Religious Folder but I hope you jump quickly out of the way. My own experience has been that they don't have quite the "decorum" that we have here.

Robby

I agree with Robby, North Star, if you are going to drop it in the Religious Discussion group, I think you should stand back out of the range of fire. The article is a fire cracker and fun topic. I can't figure out what he means by a spandrel. The term seems to imply spawning. How does a religion spawn? and from what source?

Wisdom is the harbinger of death. Durant said that. What he means is elusive to me. He had just reached the point of the Persian takeover of the Ionian cities which brought an end to the "rule of law" and an end to freedom of thought. The grip of Persia on these cities lasted until Alexander loosened the Persian hold.

But what of the opening phrase,"wisdom is the harbinger of death." What does this mean? Confronting phrases like this one leaves me speculative but empty.

I have same feeling reading the gospel of John. He starts out with ," In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." What does that mean?

Wisdom is the harbinger of death. I have been struggling all my life to achieve some degree of wisdom and it looks as though the achievement signals only death. Does anybody else have a clue to what the Durants are talking about here?

Just jotting passing thoughts here after reading Justin's post. In my mind it equates"verb" and not "word" in that citation. I don't know if it is a personal quirk or a difference of translation, verb being more active...

In the begining was the Verb, the potential for anything, one way or another, even for not being.

Could wisdom be equated to knowledge? Too much could be dangerous as when being used by the narrow minded?

"Poetry seems natural to a nation's adolescence, when imagination is greater than knowledge, and a strong faith gives personality to the forces of nature in field, wood, sea, and sky. It is hard for poetry to avoid animism, or for animism to avoid poetry.
"Prose is the voice of knowledge freeing itself from imagination and faith. It is the language of secular, mundane, 'prosaic' affairs. It is the emblem of a nation's maturity, and the epitaph of its youth.
"Up to this time (600) nearly all Greek literature had taken a poetic form. Education had transmitted in verse the lore and morals of the race. Even early philosophers, like Xenophanes, Parmenides, and Empedocles, gave their systems a poetic dress.
"Just as science was at first a form of philosophy, struggling to free itself from the general, the speculative, the unverifiable, so philosophy was at first a form of poetry, striving to free itself from mythology, animism, and metaphor.
"It was therefore an event when Pherecydes and Anaximander expounded their doctrines in prose. Other men of the age, when the Greeks called logographoi -- reason writers, prose writers -- began to chronicle in the new medium the annals of their states. So Cadmus (550) wrote a chronicle of Miletus, Eugaeon wrote of Samos, Xanthus wrote of Lydia. Toward the end of the century Hecataeus of Miletus advanced both history and geography in epochal works -- the Historia, or Inquiries, and the Besperiodos, of Circuit of the Earth. The latter divided the known planet into two continents, Europe and Asia, and included Egypt in Asia.
"To Hecataeus and the other logographoi who appeared in this age in most of the cities and colonies of Hellas, historia meant any inquiry into the facts of any matter, and was applied to science and philosophy as well as to historiography in the modern sense. The term had a skeptical connotation in Ionia. It signified that the miracle stories of gods and demogod heroes were to be replaced with secular records of events, and rational interpretation of causes and effects.
"In Hecataeus the process begins. In Herodotus it advances. In Thucydides it is complete."
So poetry is youth? Prose is maturity? Poetry is imagination? Prose is reason? Prose and reason then moved together toward the demolition of gods and the creation of secular interpretation of life?
How about the poetry and prose of today? How about religiosity versus the secularism of today?
I find it interesting that they divided the "world" into two continents although in that area Europe and Asia were at times only a few miles from each other. On what basis did they make this division? Geography? Culture?
Robby

Justin, "wisdom is the harbinger of death." I understand this to mean that most often we reach wisdom at an advanced age.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." For believers God has no beginning, but the word, yes.

Bubble The French bible says "Au commencement était le verbe" as you say. The Larousse, 'verbum' in Latin means 'parole' or WORD.

Eloïse

NORTHSTAR, I thought of Marx also, as his thinking certainly had an enormous impact on the 20th century. However, I always think of Marx himself as having done his thinking and writing as a part of the 19th century. It was on that basis that I left him out. As for Mao, I am not certain he had a world-wide affect. Perhaps. Good luck over there in Religion!

I think the Durants comment meant that just as a culture attains wisdom, the barbarians descend and blot it out. We have already seen this on our journey through these books, and we will see it again and again and again. Unfortunately, and rather depressingly, I think we are seeing the leading edge of the same thing today. Yep, Wisdom comes to a civilization, and then the peoples who have attained that wisdom are murdered, sometimes en masse.

There must be a lot of youthful seniors around, judging from the amount of poetry submittals I receive in the mail for my publications.

I think good poetry is harder to write than prose is. I'm not talking about rhyme or verse. There are rules and limits in the writing of much poetry which don't exist in the writing of prose. I publish one blank verse poet who nearly always uses the sonnet form. His work is always tight of necessity and bounded by form. His words aren't, though.

It's funny to think that when prose began, gods and animism went out the window, so to speak. There's still plenty of religious poetry around. A great deal of today's poetry is secular, sometimes almost to the point of being disgusting. I think this trend really began with Beat poetry and poets like Allen Ginsberg.

The day of Coleridge and Wordsworth is over, at least temporarily. Well, writers of all kinds are less romantic now, though there's a very strong leaning to fantasy, which may or may not be considered romantic. I consider this a reaction to the harsh reality which bombards us through various kinds of media and contemporary life itself.

I'm wondering about this "word" thing Justin mentioned. How does the original Hebrew translate, Bubble?

Mal

Thanks for the reference, Eloise about "verb". Then it dates from my early education at the convent!
It is so interesting to see that you and I seem to see a sentence from totaly different angles and both are logical.

Mal, I took in hand my Hebrew Bible and sorry to say, I don't know where to find that verset. The first line of Genesis starts with: In the beginning, G-d created the skies and the earth. The earth was with no shape and darkness reigned on the deep. The spirit of G-d (wind of) hovered above the waters.
Nowhere did I find verb or word or anything similar. Would someone tell me chapter and number so I can look in the original? Is it in the Old or maybe in the New testament? Thanks. If it is in the New, I won't be able to help because it is not part of the Hebrew Bible.

Bibles have many differing translations. When you mention that to many people, they get a kind of glazed look in their eyes, and then sort of hitch themselves up and say to themselves that theirs, whichever it may be, is, of course, the correct one! Funny!

I would have to check carefully, and this morning I am about to go out, but I believe the Hebrew version of the Old Testament is the most perfect authority. Also, I believe there are either two or three versions of the Creation in Genesis itself! If you have time to check this out on line, they may well give you chapter and verse. Today's lifetime students of the Bible believe Genesis was written by more than one person, and the different versions were integrated eons and eons ago.

Bubble, Justin said the quote came from the book of John.

I wonder if in Biblical terms "the word" meant "the law"?

Mal

John. That is why I could not find it! The original was in Greek? Aramean? Anyway, I don't have it in my Hebrew version.
I did find it in the French one printed in Switzerland in '42. Says: Au commencement etait la Parole, et la Parole etait avec Dieu. Here there is a sense of talk too, which to me is logical since so many were illiterate at the time.
I will have to read it all, I see I never had time for it before.

Not to my understanding is "the word" connected to "the law" in Hebrew vocabulary or roots Mal. But the word for a sentence "Mishpat" can also be use in law for a judgment and Beit Ha-mishpat (house of the sentence) is a court of law. "Word" in Hebrew is "Mila" and comes from an Aramaic root.

Yes MaryPage, there are many versions and many translations because each one gave its particular slant. It is more than probable that the original was written by incorporating many oral versions of it. One also needs to taken into account that many scrolls have been lost in time and some scrolls would be copies of copies of copies with errors and typos from copists. That also would explain the differences in some today versions. Bubble

Feliz Ano Nuevo-Gutes neues Jahr-Bonne Annee

M'waka m'zuri! (Swahili)

Gelukkige nieuwjaar (Deutch)
Boa ano or Feliz ano novo(Port.)
Buns onn (Romanche)

Felice Anno Nuovo (Italian)

Shanah tovah (Hebrew)
Godt Nytt Ar (Norv.)
Eutychismenos ho (Greek)

International group, Yea. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

French - BONNE ET HEUREUSE ANNÉE

I'm guessing The Word in John is 'is'. In the portion Shemot (names)which we read this past Shabbat, Moses asks G-D his name and the answer is "I am that I am'. The great 11th century Jewish theologian Rashi translated it as "I will be what I will be". This means that G-D changes as people's needs change.

Happy New Year to everyone. I was up early, turned on the TV and saw the fireworks in Sydney, Australia. My children are coming for dinner so we will have a nice, quiet celebration.

No wonder some Senior Netters take a peek in here and say "no thanks! I can't handle all that." We are a bit different in this forum, aren't we?

Robby

"The poverty of Greek prose before Herodotus is bound up with the conquest and impoverishment of Miletus in the very generation in which prose literature began. Internal decay followed the custom of history in smoothing the path of the conqueror. The growth of wealth and luxury made epicureanism fashionable, while stocism and patriotism seemed antiquated and absurd. It became a byword among the Greeks that 'once upon a time the Milesians were brave.'
"Competition for goods of the earth became keener as the old faith lost its power to mitigate class strife by giving scruples to the strong and consolations to the weak.
"The rich, supporting an oligarchic dictatorship, became a united party against the poor, who wanted a democracy. The poor secured control of the government, expelled the rich, collected the remaining children of the rich on threshing floors, set oxen upon them, and had them trampled to death. The rich returned, recaptured power, coated the leaders of the democracy with pitch, and then burnt them alive.
"The great age of Miletus was over."
I am beginning to get the feeling that all great changes both start and end with violence -- that there are no smooth transitions.

Robby

Well then, NORTHSTAR, it does depend on what a person's definition of "is" is, right?

Sorry. I just could not resist. I'm even betting ROBBY was betting I wouldn't be able to resist!

Here's wishing you each a HEALTHY and PROSPEROUS 2003. This is the year MAL will sell a book, become a famous author, and still admit to our being her friends. ROBBY will make a guest appearance in ANALIZE THIS III, will become a famous shrink, and will still admit to, well, at least all of YOU being his friends. The beautiful ELOISE will become famous for finding a final solution to the separation problem, will go into the history books for uniting Canada, and will still admit to knowing us.

Any more predictions?

New Years is also the time when lurkers here who do not ordinarily post comments at least come out and wish us all a Happy New Year!

Robby

Peaceful New Year

Hi, Pat!! Nice to see you here. Thank you for your wishes!

Happy New Year. May our politicians take time to THINK! Lets hope that there will be peace not war in 2003!

Carolyn

Happy New Year to one and all.

Sea Bubble: The Phrase " In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the word was God", is in the New Testament, the Gospel according to St John. It is verse 1, chapter 1. It is a phrase that sounds meaningful but in reality is ciruitous.

Eloise says that for believers God has no beginning but word has a beginning. That's interesting. If God has no beginning and the Word was God, then Word has no beginning or alternatively, God has a beginning. Both conclusions seem appropriate.

You who say "wisdom is the harbinger of death" means that civilizations and people gain wisdom as they approach maturity and maturity signals the end. That seems to me a sound interpretation of the phrase. It is particularly meaningful in this series for we have seen the characteristic over and over again in many civilizations.

I don't wish to belabor this "Word" thing but I see that the Greek translation of Word is Logos. The "Logos" has some interesting meanings in the Greek Mysteries. Heraclitus, in the 6th century BCE, on a self seeking journey finds not himself but a "Logos" shared by all. "Unto the Logos all things are one.

St John tells us that Jesus is an embodiment of the Logos (Word). Plutarch tells us that Osirus is the Logos. I find that an interesting connection. Perhaps what we are going to find, as we progress through Greece toward Christianity, is a continuity in the God-man image. Osirus-Dionysus-Jesus all in a common chain with similar links and characteristics.

Thanks Justin. A new avenue for thoughts.

Logos:
in Stoic philosophy, the active principle living in and determining the world. -
Chamber's 20th Century Dict. 1962.

Main Entry: Lo·gos
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural Lo·goi /-"goi/
Etymology: Greek, speech, word, reason -- more at LEGEND
Date: 1587
1 : the divine wisdom manifest in the creation, government, and redemption of the world and often identified with the second person of the Trinity
2 : reason that in ancient Greek philosophy is the controlling principle in the universe .
Merriam-Webster's

Would legal be from the same root? Again maybe a connotation like Mal was asking before. Bubble

If "civilizations and people gain wisdom as they approach maturity and maturity signals the end," then wouldn't immortality correlate with youth -- and specifically youth without wisdom? Applying this to civilizations, those cultures which appear to learn nothing and make no changes, would go on "forever."

Robby

While we are pondering this philosophic question (and doesn't this type of thinking go along with examining the Ancient Greeks?), Durant continues:--

"Across the bay from Miletus, near the outlets of the Maeander, stood the modest town of Myus, and the more famous city of Priene. There, in the sixth century, lived Bias, one of the Seven Wise Men. As Hermippus said, the Seven Wise Men were seventeen. Different Greeks made different lists of them, most frequently apreeing upon Thales, Solon, Bias, Pittacus of Mytilene, Periander of Corinth, Chilon of Sparta, and Cleobolus of Lindus in Rhodes.

Greece respected wisdom as India respected holiness, as Renaissance Italy respected artistic genius, as young America naturally respects economic enterprise. The heroes of Greece were not saints, or artists, or millionaires, but sages. Her most honored sages were not theorists but men who had made their wisdom function actively in the world.

"The sayings of these men became proverbial among the Greeks, and were in some cases inscribed in the temple of Apollo at Delphi. People like to quote, for example, the remarks of Bias -- that the most unfortunate of men is he who has not learned how to bear misfortune -- that men ought to order their lives as if they were fated to live both a long and a short time -- and that 'wisdom should be cherished as a means of traveling from youth to old age, for it is more lasting than any other possession.'"

Knowing what we learned about the Spartan culture, I am surprised to find one of the Seven Wise Men as originating from there.

Robby

Robby regarding "Civilizations which appear to learn nothing and make no changes going on forever" is an interesting statement considering how fast the present civilization has progressed. Does that mean also that the faster it progresses, the faster it will fall?

Let me draw an analogy which folks here may or may not see applicable. Increasingly, scientific research is learning that, in general, the less food one eats (but of course meeting nutritional needs), the longer one lives. Putting it another way, the more one eats, the faster the metabolism, and the quicker one arrives at his "end." Using another term, the faster one "oxidizes," the quicker one succumbs. Anti-oxidants (Vitamins C & E, for example) are being examined as meethods for prolonging life. Most experimentation has been on animals but humans are now being factored into the equation.

This, then, might very well imply with civilizations that "the faster it progresses (metabolizes), the faster it will fall." If this be so, then we come to a philosophic question. Do we want a short "productive" life for an individual or civilization or do we want a long dull life for either or both?

Robby

Participants here might want to read this article about LONG LIFE and then consider whether it applies to Civilizations.

Robby

. . . . "the most unfortunate of men is he who has not learned how to bear misfortune -- that men ought to order their lives as if they were fated to live both a long and a short time -- and that 'wisdom should be cherished as a means of traveling from youth to old age, for it is more lasting than any other possession.'"

This is how I've tried to live my life for a long, long time, maybe because I learned early that it's necessary to learn how to bear misfortune, and fortune, too. There's a certain burden which comes with each.

I can think of plenty of civilizations today which have not progressed fast. Oftentimes I think it is the civilization of the United States which people think will fall, or would like to see come down. This poses an interesting question. What causes people to feel this way about a progressive, strong civilization? Jealousy? Fear that they will lose their identity? Fear that they will be overcome?

About LOGOS: It would take a scholar and a linguist to interpret and understand those Biblical words. Even then, there would not be agreement about their meaning.

Despite the use of antioxidants and methods of good health, there is no way of knowing how long people will live. The healthiest of us can get hit by a car, die in a war, or be struck by an unknown virus for which we have no resistance or immunity. Prepare for a long life or a short one. That's my philosophy for myself. The only one who will make my life profitable and interesting in old age is I.

Mal

As I am here visiting with my mother, I wish this New Year bring peace and joy to you all!

Following Justin's thoughts on the "Word-Logos"; according to the Indian philosophy, the divine principles of wisdom, auspiciousness, innocence and spontaneity, (4 valences carbon atom), was first created by the separation (big bang) of the female and male principle of God into a triune energy-word AUM. The whole creation thus is supported by a vibrating logos personified as the son of God.

Wisdom is not necessarily an attribute of the old. We find that the young children often speak the truth as they are innocent. There is a French proverb that says: "La vérité sort de la bouche des enfants."

Françoise

Are truth and wisdom synonymous?

Robby

No. Sometimes it is extremely unwise to speak the truth!

Chop off her head! Mary Page just spoke the truth!

Mal

The Queen has spoken! Truth and wisdom on opposing ends.

See everything, Hear everything, Say nothing. vs, See nothing, Hear nothing and say everything?

And so how do we relate all your various words of wisdom to the remarks of Bias -- "Wisdom should be cherished as a means of traveling from youth to old age, for it is more lasting than any other possession."

Robby

Be wise, use you wisdom wisely to reach higher, be wise enough not to show it nor show off

Robby

Click HERE to see information about the city of Priene, the home of Bias, and the nearby city of Miletus.

Robby

This MAP shows us the location of the city of Priene in what is being called Asia Minor. Note how close Priene is to the island of Samos, which we are about to visit.
Scroll all the way to the right. It is in the lower right-hand corner.

Robby

Indeed, truth when spoken can be painful to hear. Thus wisdom and truth are of the same breath as in a wise man like Socrates who was given poison because he thus spoke it.

Françoise

"West of Priene lay Samos, second largest of Ionia's isles. The capital stood on the southeastern shore. As one entered the well-protected harbor, passing the famous red ships of the Samian fleet, the city rose as if in tiers on the hill -- first the wharves and shops, then the homes, then the fortress-acropolis and the great temple of Hera. Behind these a succession of ranges and peaks rising to a height of five thousand feet.
"It was a sight to stir the patriotism of every Samian soul."
Robby

Here are some predictions of the World Future Society:--
1 - By the Year 2020 there will be more than 1 billion people age 60 or older. Three quarters of them will be in developing countries.
2 - Nanomedicine will emerge by 2025. Nanotechnology-based medical therapies will clear clogged arteries and destroy cancer cells before they become tumors.
3 - Hydrogen is poised to match the effectiveness of fossil fuels in powering cars, planes and ships. The most abundant element in the universe, it emits a virtually harmless water vapor when burned in an engine.
4 - Mass customization will increasingly be the rule for many consumer products. Manufacturers will soon be offering custom-built TVs, bikes, clothes, food, and other products created to each person's specific desires.
5 - Water shortages will become severe in most major cities in the developing world over the next two decades. By 2040, 3.5 billion people will run short on water -- almost 10 times as many as in 1995.
Here are ten innovative products for the next decade:--
1 - Genetaceuticals -- Treatments combining genetic research and pharmaceuticals.
2 - Personalized computers -- customized hardware and software that adapts to your way of working.
3 - Multi-fuel automobiles -- combining electricity, reformulated gasoline, natural gas, and other fuels.
4 - Next-generation television -- high definition, wall-sized flat screens for information, communication, and entertainment.
5 - Electronic wallet -- a smart card to replace money, keys, driver's license, medical records, etc.
6 - Home Health monitors -- automated analysis of your vital signs.
7 - Smart maps and tracking devices -- good for finding a Chinese restaurant or a lost dog.
8 - Smart materials -- sensors that detect stress in bridges, buildings, etc.
9 - Weight control and anti-aging products -- ranging from genetic cures for baldness to nutritionally enhanced fruits and vegetables
10 -- Never-owned leased-only products -- such as computers and other appliances that become obsolete quickly.
What would Bias have thought of all this? Where does all this fit in with wisdom? maturity? progress of mankind? civilization? Have we moved forward since the period when Bias lived 2,500 years ago? Just what do we mean when we use the term "forward?"

Robby

MaryPage: Of course the biblical statement is open to interpretation. And so many people have died because they believed they were free to interpret.

I did find my philosophy text book A History of Western Philosophy W.T. Jones, Harcourt, Brace and Co. 1952, just to make my quotations legal... St. John (page 330 like anyone is going to check) says The Word is Jesus. "So the Word became flesh and blood and lived for a while among us, abounding in blessing and truth, and we saw the honor God had given him, with honor as an only son receives from his father..."

"The 'Word' or logos is a technical term drawn from Greek philosophy and the concept it signifies is foreign both to the mystery cults and to ancient Judaism....

Origins of the Logos Doctrine

We have long ago seen both the faint beginnings of this conception of Heraclitus and its subsequent development by the Stoics. Along with their universal materialism, the Stoics had vaguely affirmed the existecne of a creative and generative force, which they had called the logos and had conceived to be in some fashion divine. Doubtless, all of this seems exceedingly vague to our modern minds, but it had a great appeal for the minds of late antiquity, and in one way or another powerfully influenced many philosophical theories, including the view of John. Since it was presumably in the writings of Philo, still another Jew of the Dispersion, that John learned about the logos doctrine.

Philo came from Alexandria, one of the centres of logos thinking. Although he was a contemporary of Jesus, he had never heard of him. Instead he wanted to harmonize beliefs of Judaism with contemporary intellectual trends. Inadvertently, he created a basis for Christianity. There was growing concern in the Jewish community about a providentail god and a logical way out was to introduce intermediary beings between the transendent Yahweh and his created world. The later Hebrew scriptures are full of angelic agents of Yahweh's will. Philo adapted the concept of logos to serve the same purpose.

There's pages of this stuff but you get the idea.

Do we really want all of our information on one card. The theft recently of discs containing all the medical records and other personal information of all the members of the military plus all the retired military in the U.S. from a health care firm in Arizona which supposedly had security measures in place, gives one pause. 500,000 people now have to worry if their identities have been stolen and used for criminal purposes.

There's lots of thinking, and philosophizing, and giving of opinions, and sharing of information going on here. I have a feeling that the Ancient Greeks would have been proud of us. I am especially pleased that no one here is prosylytizing his/her own religious views or, in any way, degrading the views of others. This is truly a "civilized" discussion group.

Robby

Does living longer mean I have to give up chocolate? I've tried eating less and I roam around the house looking in cupboards and in the refrigerator for some small nibbles to get me through to the next meal.

North Star:--Have you tried knocking on your neighbor's door for some chocolate? Tell them that you have weighed the consequences and are willing to shorten your life.

Robby

Robby, good post, #632, and good timing :>) May we continue in that spirit through 2003.

Good to hear from you, Hubert. I feel confident that everyone in this forum feels the same way regarding that subject. Let us hear from you from time to time.

Robby

Regarding my Post 632, following is my post originally made when we started Our Oriental Heritage and which holds true as we continue The Story of Civilization. I am re-posting this for any new participants who may not have read it.

"To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Sometimes silence can be wisdom!

Bubble - Oui, "La parole est d'argent, le silence est d'or"

The word is made of silver, the silence of gold.

I wonder if the word 'philosophy' comes from Philo's name.

No it does not. It comes from the root of philos, a friend in Greek. Sofia is wisdom.
A philosopher is a lover of wisdom. Maybe Philo was just called "friend".

KOUROS OF SAMOS, 6th century B.C.

Below is a link to some pictures of Samos taken in 1999. They give you an idea of the geography of this place.
SAMOS

HERAION AT SAMOS

"The zenith of Samos came in the third quarter of the sixth century, under Polycrates. The revenues from the busy port enabled the dictator to end a dangerous period of unemployment by a program of public works that called forth the admiration of Herodotus.
"The greatest of these undertakings was a tunnel that carried the city's water supply 4500 feet through a mountain. We catch some idea of Greek ability in mathematics and engineering when we learn that the two bores, begun at opposite ends, met in the center with an error of eighteen feet in direction and nine in height."
Reminds me of an old old story, unfair to the Chinese and probably untrue, of the procedure of the Chinese when wanting to bore a tunnel through a mountain of placing an army of coolies with shovels at each side of the mountain. If they met, they had a tunnel. If they did not meet, they had two tunnels.
We should talk. We have bridges falling down all over America.

Robby

ANCIENT SAMOS AQUEDUCT PICTURE

THE EFPALINION AQUEDUCT OF SAMOS

"Efpalinion excavation (ditch) is a mechanical wonder in the history of Mechanic Technology. this indicates the high level of scientific knowledge by the Hellene mechanics of the sixth century b.C. The great ancient Hellene mechanic Efpalinos succeed in opening a water supply channel (duct) through a mountain in order to supply with water the capital city of Samos (Pythagorion).

"The water supply channel (duct) consisted of three unequal parts .The first was on the land travelling 900 m. from the spring, it ended at the bottom of mountain Ambelos where it connected with the entrance of the channel (tunnel) which was the main construction. The channel (tunnel) was 1036 m. long and its excavation started simultaneously from both sides of the mountain . The two working groups met in the center of the channel and they had only 0,6 m. error."

"In Samos, about 590, the fabulous Aesop had been the Phrygian slave of the Greek Iadmon. An unconfirmed tradition tells how Iadmon freed him, how Aesop traveled widely, met Solon, lived at the court of Croesus, embezzled the money that Croesus had commissioned him to distribute at Delphi, and met a violent death at the hands of the outraged Delphians.
"His fables, largely taken from Eastern sources, were well known at Athens in the classic age. Socrates, says Plutarch, put them into verse. Though their form was Oriental, their philosophy was characteristically Greek. 'Sweet are the beauties of Nature, the earth and sea, the stars, and the orbs of sun and moon. But all the rest is fear and pain,' especially if one embezzles.
"We can still meet him in the Vatican, where a cup from the Periclean age represents him with half-bald head and Vandyke beard, listening profitably to a merry fox."
Like most people here, I was well acquainted with Aesop's fables but never knew this background.

Robby

So Saint John's source for the logos concept was Philo. That's interesting. Philo attempted to reconcile differences between Judaism and Greek mythology. He was a contemporary of John and of Jesus. I am not certain that Logos was foreign to the Greek mystery cults. Heraclitus in his search for himself was an initiate. Philo is somewhere on my shelves but I think I have just vol 1 on creation. There are at least ten vols. Philo was prolific rambler. North Star, do have a clue to the where abouts of the logos references. His works are without general index. It may yet be possible to make sense of the St. John quote.

A search online indicates an enormous amount of information regarding Aesop's Fables. They apparently are used for bedtime stories, in schools, in college psychology classes. Any idea what makes these Fables so popular? Were any of you folks "brought up" on Aesop's Fables?

Robby

The "Fables de La Fontaine" in French are inspired from Aesop's fable and in primary school it was compulsory to learn by heart one new fable a week. They also served as topic for essays and dissertations in High School.

Nice editions were offered as present for birthdays and my father had a leather binded, Bible paper edition of Contes et Fables de La Fontaine at all time on his bed table.

The saying used by Eloise "La parole est d'argent..." can be found there, as the one "la raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure". The reason given by the most powerful is always the best reason. It is illustrated in the fable about the wolf and the young sheep. Bubble

Hasn't that fable of the wolf and the young sheep indicating that "the reason given by the most powerful is always the best reason" been illustrated time and time again in our voyages through ancient civilizations?

Robby

Sure. The morale of these fables is always true and applicable everywhere and always. Universal truth. School was trying to teach us that as well as develop a good memory. Today it is deemed unimportant apparently.

Aesop's Fables are "universal truth?"

"The great Pythagorus was born in Samos, but left it in 529 to live at Crotona in Italy. Anacreon came from Teos to sing Polycrates' charms and to tutor his son.
"The greatest figure at the court was the artist Theodorus, the Leonardo of Samos, Jack-of-all-trades and master of most. The Greeks ascribed to him, perhaps as a cloture on research, the invention of the level, the square, and the lathe. He was a skilled engraver of gems, a metalworker, stoneworker, woodworker, sculptor, and architect. He took part in designing the second temple of Artemis at Ephesus, built a vast skias, or pavillion, for Sparta's public assemblies, helped to introduce clay modeling into Greece, and shared with Rhoecus the honor of bringing from Egypt or Assyria to Samos the hollow casting of bronze.
"Before Theodorus the Greeks had made crude bronze statues by riveting plates of the metal to a 'bridge' of wood. Now they were prepared to produce such masterpieces in bronze as the Charioteer of Delphi and the Discus Thrower of Myron.
"Samos was famous also for its pottery. Pliny recommends it to us by telling us that the priests of Cybele would use nothing but Samian potsherds in depriving themselves of their manhood."
Robby

Those fables used to be taught at home too, my mother used sayings from fables to avoid preaching to us constantly about good behavior. With very few words the message would sink in. I still remember her saying them. I wonder if "dis-moi qui tu hantes je te dirai qui tu es," comes from Aesop's fables Bubble. "Tell me whom you associate with and I will tell you who you are."

Eloïse

It interests me that in a place where there were no strong religious codes of behavior someone came along and moralized in the way that Aesop did.

Mal

Are morals necessarily connected with religious beliefs?

Robby

Not necessarily, though there are plenty of moralistic stories in various religious texts.

Mal

Below is a link to an artist's conception of the Temple to Artemis in Ephesus. Theodorus is thought to be the architect of this temple, which was 300 feet long, 150 feet wide, and had 100 stone columns.

TEMPLE TO ARTEMIS

Okay, happy New Year from one of your lurkers! I don't understand why, on the rare occasions when I keep my mouth shut, I have to be called a "lurker." It makes me sound like a Peeping Tom creeping about in the bushes. Why can't I be called a "listener" and a "learner?"

You tell 'em, Shasta. To me "lurking" seems to be something surreptitious and not quite legal. So why are we called lurkers here when we don't speak up?

Happy New Year to you!

Mal

Hi, Shasta! Good to hear from you. "Lurker" is a Senior Net term that existed long before I came along. Here in Story of Civilization, hereon you will be referred to as a "quiet learner." But hopefully, you have made a New Years resolution not to remain that quiet.

Robby

I always thought Aesop's fables was a good way to distinguish between good and evil.

Funny the way we chose words, my personal choices are:

To Thine Ownself be true; and most important; Never judge a book by its cover.

Okay, happy New Year from one of your lurkers! But I don't understand why, on the rare occasions when I keep my mouth shut, I have to be called a "lurker." It makes me sound like a Peeping Tom creeping about in the bushes. Why can't I be called a "listener" or a "learner?"

Is something going on with SeniorNet? Someone is complaining in WREX that she can't retrieve previous messages without posting something. I'm in here now, knowing darned well that I posted a response to Shasta's post, and so did Robby. Now I'm seeing her post as the last message posted.

Edit:- Okay, I see that Shasta's message was posted twice.

Mal

Shasta was just emphasizing her point!

Robby

In response to the comment about moral sayings showing up in societies lacking in structured religion, Benjamin Franklin was not known for his religious piety, yet he wrote Poor Richard's Almanac, which is just chock full of clever moral sayings. True, I am speaking of an individual here, and not a society. But Aesop was an individual, as well.

Morals or ethics are the way groups of people living together agree to get along with the intention that the results do the most good for the most people. Common sense dictates behaviour that is acceptable to the majority and won't upset day-to-day living. Religions can adopt these ethics as part of the religious fabric but humanist atheist societies have them too.

North Star, you say:--"Morals or ethics are the way groups of people living together agree to get along with the intention that the results do the most good for the most people. Common sense dictates behaviour that is acceptable to the majority."

Regarding that, some questions come to mind. How do you define "common sense" and "good" and "most people?" How do these various groups (plural) come to an agreement? What are the guiding lines and who sets them?

Robby

"To be temperate is the greatest excellence. And wisdom is speaking the truth and acting with knowledge in accordance with nature."

Heracleitus

The change in GREEN quotes in the Heading indicates that Durant has moved us onto his next section. For those who have the book, we are on Page 143.
"Across the Caystrian Gulf from Samos stood Ionia's most famous city -- Ephesus. Founded about 1000 by colonists from Athens, it prospered by tapping the trade of both the Cayster and the Maeander. Its population, its religion, and its art contained a strong Eastern element. The Artemis worshiped there began and ended as an Oriental goddess of motherhood and fertility.
"Her renowned temple had many deaths, and almost as many resurrections. On the site of an ancient altar twice built and twice destroyed, the first temple was erected about 600, and was probably the earliest important edifice in the Ionic style.
"The second temple was raised about 540, partly through the generosity of Croesus. Paconius of Ephesus, Theodorus of Samos, and Demetrius, a priest of the shrine, shared in designing it. It was the largest Greek temple that had yet been built, and was ranked without dispute among the Seven Wonders of the World.
"The other six were the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, the Pharos at Alexandria, the Colossus of Rhodes, the Pheidian Zeus at Olympia, the tomb of Mausolus at Halicarnassus, and the Pyramids.
"Pliny describes the second temple as 425 feet long by 225 feet wide, with 127 columns sixty feet in height -- several of them adorned or disfigured with reliefs. Completed in 420 B.C. after more than a century of labor, it was destroyed by fire in 356.
"Here, as early as 690 B.C., lived Callinus, the earliest known elegiac poet of Greece. Far greater and uglier was Hipponax, who, toward 550, composed poems so coarse in subject, obscure in language, pointed in wit, and refined in metrical style, that all Greece began to talk about him, and all Ephesus to hate him.
"He was short and thin, lame and deformed, and completely disagreeable. Woman, he tells us, in one of his surviving fragments, brings two days of happiness to a man -- 'one when he marries her, the other when he buries her.' He was a ruthless satirist, and lampooned every notable in Ephesus from the lowest criminal to the highest priest of the temple.
"When two sculptors, Bupalus and Athenis, exhibited an elegant caricature of him, he attacked them with such corrosive verse that some of it has proved more durable than their stone, and sharper than the teeth of time. Says a typically polished morsel:--'Hold my coat. I shall hit Bupalus in the eye. I am ambidextrous, and I never miss my aim.
"Tradition said that Hipponax died by suicide, but perhaps this was only a universal wish."
Robby

Robby: #671 They listen to Heracleitus. Seriously though, I've said that religion evolves. Maybe common sense and ethics evolve too. I think most people want to do the right thing if they know what the right thing is and if they, themselves will benefit too.

"This one thing is wisdom, to understand Logos as that which guides the world everywhere... There is a Logos that exists forever and is universal, but men fail to comprehend it. All things come about in accordance with this Logos."

Heracleitus quoted in Diogenes Laertes

"In the world of knowledge, the idea of the Good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and the lord of the light of this visible world, and the source of truth and reason in the intellectual."

Plato "Republic"

Wasn't it Heraclitus that believed there was a "constant flow" whereas everything is in a constant flux? He believed the world was characterized by opposites! If we never become ill, we wouldn't know what it was to be well. Hunger vs. full. war vs. peace.Instead of th term God, he often used the term logos</> (reason.) The "universal reason" or law is something common to us all and all are guided by it. He said "the opinions of most people are like the playthings of infants." I>

As if he sensed the Chaos Theory 2,550 years before it was written down!

In the various early explanations of "everything", in this Ancient Greece as in earlier studies, one cannot help but notice that a few individuals seemed to intuit a sequence of events pretty close to what our scientists today tell us is the most probable order of things.

I watched one of those "Smart Travels" half hours on Public Television last evening. This one was on Greece, and terribly well done. Aha!, I said to myself. I think I've finally GOT it! Back in Ancient History Grade 9, we first heard of Doric and Ionic columns. (why is volume not volumn, if it is not colume, but column?) I tried then, and on several later occasions, to memorize the differences and get them filed away correctly in my brain. It never took. In visiting the largest and most ancient of DORIC temples, this one to Hera, I finally have it!

I think. The Doric have the very simple capitals and the striped (er, strippled, I think is the correct term. Pleated? Crimped?) columns. The Ionic have very fancy capitals and plain columns.

I think. Help! MAL!

Mary Page, as I recall without looking them up, the Ionic columns are very plain; the Doric coumns have a kind of roll on each end of the capital, and the Corinthian ones are very elaborate and decorated with what look to me like leaves.

Now I must go and see!

Mal

I was wrong.

GREEK COLUMNS

Andrea (ALF): So good to see you here and giving us a quote to chew on. You give the quote:--"The opinions of most people are like the playthings of infants."
Are we just "playing around" here in this discussion group?
I hope you are subscribed here so that we will hear from you now and then.

Robby

I was never quite sure of that either. Thanks for the link, Mal.

Robby

You're welcome, Robby. Bubble is fine; has been at the doctor's all day getting the results of earlier tests.

Mal

How is Justin? Haven't heard from him for a while?

Robby

I don't know about Justin. Hopefully, he's busy watching that new grandson of his.

Mal

We are learning and getting wise while playing.

This discussion has such variety, so many links, there is no way to see it all, especially since many sites have additional pages all more tantalising one than the other. Bubble

"Heracleitus the Obscure was born about 530, belonged to a noble family, and thought that democracy was a mistake. He said:--'There are many bad but few good. One man to me is as ten thousand if he be the best.' But even aristocrats did not please him, nor women, nor scholars. He wrote with genial particularity: "Abundant learning does not form the mind. If it did, it would have instructed Hesiod, Pythagoras, Xenophanes and Hecataeus. The only real wisdom is to know that idea which by itself will govern everything on every occasion.'
"So he went off, like a Chinese sage, to live in the mountains and brood over the one idea that would explain all things. Disdaining to expound his conclusions in words intelligible to common men, and seeking in obscurity of life and speech some safety from individuality-destroying parties and mobs, he expressed his views in pithy and enigmatical apophthegms On Nature, which he desposited in the temple of Artemis for the mystification of posterity."
He disdained to expound his conclusions but maybe someone here will come forth to agree or disagree with his opinions.

Robby

Heracleitus! His opinions are just that-opinions and we don't have to agree or disagree. I prefer to think that there are more good people and generally more good in the world than bad. MO. I am however befuddled when I think of all the philosophers down thru the ages who have tried to get the whole of "life" down to one essential idea.I think science even trys to get to the bottom of things, meaning- develop one law that applies to everything all the time and they can not do it.Chaos theory indeed.fp

Now I am totally confused. Historically there are more than one set of views for the beginning so how can anyone single out one specifically as the base.

Yes to that. "The only real wisdom is to know that idea which by itself will govern everything on every occasion."

How I wish I had the time to really think about that one.

The way I remember those columns is by the length of the words.

Doric is the shortest word and the simplest column.

Ionic has a little more to it.

Corinthian is fancy. Ooo-la-la!

Linda

Linda!! Good to see you participating!
Very tricky. Now I will always be able to identify them!

Robby

Glad to see that everyone has figured out which capitals are Doric and which are Ionic and has distinguished them from Corintian. Columns of course, maybe fluted or plain and constructed with and without entasis. It is the bases that are most interesting. Later, Medieval master builders tended to sign their work in the design of a base.

Doric tends to be of Attic Design and Ionic of Asian design. However, examples of each may be found in Attica and in Asia as well as in the Islands and shores of Magna Gracia. Doric construction lasted about a century and was finally superseded by Ionic as a result of a mathematical problem in the frieze. The frieze , as you may know, lies above the architrave and is formed from triglyphs and metapes. The problem is a complex one and it was not solved and as a result Ionic construction became the preferred construction in the fifth century. Corinthian capitals did not proliferate until the Helenistic- Roman period in the late fourth century and later.

While the frieze is decorated with triglyphs and metapes, it is the metapes which have the most interest for the casual observer. Metapes are carved and each one tells a little story, just as the pediments tell a little sculptured story.

I'm sorry, but I have been away from my computer for awhile on business and could not contribute as I would have liked during this discussion of temple building.

Merriam-Webster's - One entry found for metope. Main Entry: met·o·pe Pronunciation: 'me-t&-(")pE Function: noun Etymology: Greek metopE, from meta- + opE opening; akin to Greek Ops eye, face -- more at EYE Date: 1563 : the space between two triglyphs of a Doric frieze often adorned with carved work

"Heracleitus has been represented in modern literature as building his philosophy around the notion of change, but the extant fragments hardly support this interpretation. Like many philosophers he longed to find the One behind the Many, some mind-steadying unity and order amid the chaotic flux and multiplicity of the world. He said: 'All things are one. Fire.' Perhaps he was influenced by the Persian worship of fire. Probably, as we may judge from his identification of Fire with Soul and God, he used the term symbolically as well as literally, to mean energy as well as fire. The fragments permit no certainty.
"He said: 'This world was made neither by a god nor by man, but it ever was, and is, and shall be, ever-living Fire, in measures being kindled and, in measures going out.' Everything is a form of Fire, either in Fire's 'downward path' through progressive condensation into moisture, water, and earth, or in its 'upward path' from earth to water to moisture to Fire.
"Though he finds a consoling constancy in the Eternal Fire, Heracleitus is troubled by its endless transformations. The second nucleus of his thought is the eternity and ubiquity of change. He finds nothing static in the universe, the mind, or the soul. Nothing is. Everything becomes. No condition persists unaltered, even for the smallest moment. Everything is ceasing to be what it was, and is becoming what it will be.
"Here is a new emphasis in philosophy. Heracleitus does not merely ask, like Thales, what things are but, like Anaximander, Lucretius, and Spencer, how they became what they are. He suggests, like Aristotle, that a study of the second question is the best approach to the fire.
"The extant apophthegms do not contain the famous formula, panta rei, ouden menei -- 'all things flow, nothing abides' but antiquity is unamimous in attributing it to Heracleitus. 'You cannot step twice into the same river, for other waters are ever flowing on to you. 'We are and we are not.'
"Here, as in Hegel, the universe is a vast Becoming. Multiplicity, variety, change are as real as unity, identity, being, the Many are as real as the One. The Many are the One. Every change is a passage of things toward or from the condition of Fire. The One is the Many.
"In the very heart of Fire flickers restless change."
Okay, gang! Here's something which gives us pause to think. Often I have sat in front of a fire and watched its flickering flames and had thoughts similar to this. The flames are ever changing. It is the same fire which continues and yet it is never the same fire. It is static yet it is constantly changing. And, of course, we all know the analogy of the river never being the same one.
Are you the same person that you were last year, or last week, or two seconds ago? If not, then where does memory come in? Who is or was that person with your name that you recollect and how is it that you can bring this person to mind? Are you in the same house? Or own the same pet?
Your thoughts, please?

Robby

And somewhere there is a "collective memory" or "ancestral memory". But how to find a coherent explanation to that?

Fire kills logs or combustibles, but it creates warmth and energy. Passion too can be called a fire and it enables creation.

Life is change, or change is life. The static becomes lifeless. In constant change I grow and add to the being that is me. The core is always there but it alters as more is being added, hopefully in wisdom. Bubble.

“Heracleitus seems to have had little love for his fellow man nor they for him. He spurned his fellow citizen's attempts to encourage him to participate in political and social life of the city. His focus was on the human soul which participated in all life through its connection with the Logos. This was an immanent, divine, intelligent, creative force - the Logos, a sort of world soul which permeated and governed all life: ‘If you travel every path you will not find the limits of the soul, so deep is its logos.‘ There is a tendency for later commentators to speak of the Logos as God. To Heracleitus, the Logos encompassed all the opposites, being ‘day-night, winter-summer, war-peace, satiety-hunger‘.

“The word ‘logos’ has many meanings. It can mean thought or reason, or the words by which this is expressed. It is translated variously as thought, intelligence, and account. There is a tendency for later commentators to speak of the Logos as God. Certainly Heracleitus conceived of it as immanent, divine, intelligent, creative. His human soul participated in all life through its connection with the Logos. ‘If you travel every path you will not find the limits of the soul, so deep is its logos.’ Christian thinking came to embrace this concept: ‘In the beginning was the Word...’ (St John) Augustine speaks of Christ as 'the Logos made flesh'."

I moved to North Carolina from Florida with four cats in the middle of December thirteen years ago. Five years later on the last day of December I bought my first computer with a modem that opened a window to the world for me. I had left a life in Florida which was a combination of pleasantness and terrible stress and great activity, and find myself here now, quite a few broken bones later, living a life of the mind principally, physical activity diminished, with intellectual activities increased and aided by my computer.

Am I a different person from what I was in Florida, or even what I was before I bought the computer? Yes, indeed. I have moved so much in my life that it is easy for me to see changes in myself, more perhaps than if I had lived in one place where changes (which do not come fast) might not have been so obvious.

Memory is selective, so I cannot say that what I remember is accurate. I have moved six times in the past thirteen years, by the way, and each of those moves brought changes for and in me. One thing sure, I am not the same person now that I was thirteen or eight years ago, or even yesterday, minus three of the cats with which I arrived in this place.

Mal

I agree, Mal: I have changed more in the five or six years since I have had the computer that in the whole of my life before that. Although I have traveled a lot, I have met many more people here than ever before, also I have had deeper and more serious talks than normaly. This has changed completely my outlook and my priorities. Of course I do wish to continue on the fruitful journey of discovery and self discovery. Bubble

I think that we all change over time. We experience adventures and occurrences in life that alter us. We must accommodate and adapt -so that is what we do. Much like the fire turning to ash, the Phoenix rises.

Andy:--You say "we must accommodate and adapt." Why MUST we?

Robby

Entropy...the very universe is changing everymore. I at one time was interested in all the writings of Tehard de Chardin and belonged to an organization called The Phenomonom of Man which was group of people discussing his writings in an attempt to delve into these very questions that have "bugged" mankind since he became aware of himself as a self. I for one was never satisfied with any answers and as an older woman have decided to let the mystery rest. Ah Sweet Mystery of LIfe at last I've found you No not me. But isnt it wonderful to realize how many thousands of minds have contemplated these questions. fp

Faith:--The intriguing part of change is what Heracleitus calls the "consoling constancy." How can there be both simultaneously?

Robby

Because I believe that everything we see, do, hear and read changes us, I try to avoid anything that will not make me a better person, like watching trash on television.

Life is a perpetual change and in order to avoid the stress of it, I try to welcome change and find something stimulating in it. Moving every year for 7 years during the depression seems terrible to some people, but it made us adaptable, it forced us to cope with something new, a new house, a new neighborhood, a new school and new friends.

In my mind there is nothing static in the world. Everything is recycled to the smallest particle. Nothing is wasted, there is no void.

A handicap is an opportunity to develop in areas that other people are not forced to develop. In most cases, the handicapped have a strong character, are resillient, creative and nice to be with. My grand son of 20 who just spent 2 weeks here has Downs Syndrome. He is loving, happy and kind, a joy to have around. He gives us lessons on effective relationaships, teaches us patience and tolerence and most of all, love.

Eloïse

"Heracleitus passes on to the third element in his philosophy -- the unity of opposites -- the interdependence of contraries -- the harmony of strife. 'God is day and night, winter and summer, war and peace, surfeit and hunger. Good and bad are the same. Goodness and badness are one. Life and death are the same. So are waking and sleeping. youth and age.'
"All these contraries are stages in a fluctuating movement, moments of the ever-changing Fire. Each member in an opposing pair is necessary to the meaning and existence of the other. Reality is the tension and interplay -- the alternation and exchange -- the unity and harmony of opposites. 'They understand not how that which is at variance with itself agrees with itself. There sits attunement of opposite tensions, like that of the bow and the harp.'
"As the tension of the string, loosened or drawn taut, creates the harmony of vibrations called music or a note, so the alternation and strife of opposites creates the essence and meaning and harmony of life and change.
"In the struggle of organism with organism, of man with man, of man with woman, of generation with generation, of class with class, of nation with nation, of idea with idea, of creed with creed -- the earring opposites are the warp and woof on the loom of life, working at cross-[purposes to produce the unseen unity and hidden concord of the whole.
"Any lover will understand 'From things that differ comes the fairest attunement.'"
Eloise says that "life is a perpetual change" and that she tries "to avoid the stress of it." Heracleitus speaks of the "harmony of strife."Eloise says that she tries "to avoid anything that will not make me a better person." Heracleitus says that "good and bad are the same. Goodness and badness are one."
Do you folks agree with Heracleitus that the "strife of opposites creates the essence and meaning and harmony of life and change?

Robby

For Hericleitus' Nothing remains the same', we have the modern 'The only constant in life is change.' I suppose one example of the unity of opposites is magnetism where positive forces are attracted to negative forces. Or for every physical action there is an equal reaction. This could be illustrated by the shooting of a rifle, force pushes it back into your shoulder. As least that's what I'm told. I've never handled a firearm and hope there will never be a need to.

Opposites attract. They used to say that about falling in love but if you don't have anything in common, there is no basis to build a relationship. I mean it's interesting for a while because there is an exchange of totally new information, but finding common ground is hard.

I do hope I keep changing. Having an ever inquiring mind, being curious, and not losing your inner child helps. Your inner child does not take things for granted but keeps looking at the familiar and finding new beauty in it. Your inner child has a playful side and enjoys the fun in everyday situations.

I just reread Robby's question. Happiness must be like Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton in 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?' They were happy making each other unhappy. How many of us could wage personal war day after day? The movie was on TV recently and I was exhausted from watching it.

I avoid the stress of change by adapting. It is not the same as avoiding stress, stress is inevitable.

I believe that Heracleitus would not have bothered with trash on television but had he lived today, he would have said "...strife of opposites creates the essence and meaning and harmony of life and change?..." because his writing and trash on television are opposites, one makes a person grow, but not the other.

Eloïse

"In the world we perceive, there are certain pairs of opposites that can be reconciled into a whole that is beyond them. In several historic 'debates' with Albert Einstein,
(physicist) Niels Bohr rigorously demonstrated how energy and time in classical physics are complementary opposites. Bohr went further and explained how conflicting viewpoints of life itself are special cases of complementary opposites. He developed a deep understanding of the meaning of symbols and of the proper use of language (semantics). He sensed that the lesson of complementarity had been with wise men through the ages. But he also felt that we are in a better position today to understand it than ever before. He died in 1962 with the hope that the wisdom of complementarity would help create for us an open and harmonious world.*

Robby, we must accommodate and accept if we choose to adapt. In this manner we integrate life's little lessons into our daily lives, as Eloise says - "it is stimulating."

"Heracleitus smiles at men who 'seek in vain to purify themselves from blood-guiltiness by defiling themselves with blood,' or who 'offer prayers to these statues here -- as if one should try to converse with houses. Such men know nothing of the real nature of gods.' Nor will he admit personal immortality. Man, too, like everything else, is a changeful and fitful flame, 'kindled and put out like a light in the night.'
"Even so, man is Fire. The soul or vital principle is part of the eternal energy in all things. As such it never dies. Death and birth are arbitrary points taken in the current of things by the human analyzing mind. From the impartial standpoint of the universe they are merely phases in the endless change of forms.
"At every instant some part of us dies while the whole lives. At every second one of us dies while Life lives. Death is a beginning as well as an ending. Birth is an ending as well as a beginning.
"Our words, our thoughts, even our morals, are prejudices, and represent our interests as parts of groups. Philosophy must see things in the light of the whole.
"'To God all things are beautiful and good and right. Men deem some things wrong and some right.'"
All things are good? There is no evil? There is no right or wrong?

Robby

"There is no right or wrong; 'tis only thinking makes it so."

- - - William Shakespeare in Hamlet

God may think all things beautiful perhaps, because he thinks he created all things. But the truth of the matter is that there is evil and there is good and there is lots of variation in between and neither god nor man can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Change is what the cycle of life and death is all about. Each new human progresses from infancy to old age and thence to dust. We all start as a lustful idea and end up as dust on the cutting room floor. What does it matter so long as we are amused as we go through the changes.

What hurts is wrong. What feels pleasant is good. No amount of thinking can change those conditions Mr. Shakespeare.

In his Prologomena to the Greek Religion, J. Harrison says that the ancient Pythagorean texts often stress the equal status of women and men. The Pythagoreans were famous for giving freedom and respect to women. Women ran the ancient Mystery religions. It was the gals who represented Dionysus.

Here we are 2600 years later and our gals are still trying to convince fat old male State legislators that equality before the law is the essence of the American constitution.

I have not been in contact with philosophes, great thinkers and this part of my education lacks singularly today (Mal, is Niels Bohr accessible read, or very esoteric?).

From observation, I would say there is no real total bad. Very often it is that we look at certain facets and forget about the other side, we are influenced by our own previous experience or education. What about Hitler and such? Well those also had somewhere a good spot, but the evil they did to others through fanaticism of course hide the rest. Eichmann loved his wife and his son was the pupil of his eyes. He personally killed babies with no compulsion of any sorts<P.

Birth and death are just doors of change in a cycle. They are equal and one should not feared one event more than the other. It is just a time when change, occuring gradually in our life, will happen faster at that time. MHO of course. We do fear the unknown, the change in our routine. We are creatures of habit and adaptability has become a "learned" trait, not an innate one. Oh how we love and luxuriate in comfort!

It is hard to put order in this things first thing in the morning! Let me get another cup of coffee, or I will try coming back later. My thinking cap fits best at night. Bubble

Bubble, Niels Bohr was a physicist. His papers are available, but I can't find them online. There is a good deal of information about him, though, such as this:
"Bohr, Niels Henrik David

Danish physicist, Nobel Prizewinner 1922 for theory of the hydrogen atom
Born: Copenhagen, October 7, 1885
Died: Copenhagen, November 18, 1962"

Einstein: "God does not play dice."

Einstein: "God is not malicious."

Bohr: "Einstein, stop telling God what to do."
I feel as if I haven't had any sleep at all, so I'm going back to bed. See you later, folks.

Mal

"'To God all things are beautiful and good and right.'"
To which god? There certainly were a lot of them around in the time of Heracleitus.

It seems to me that human beings have built-in instincts about what is good and what is bad. It seems to me that it's not a good idea to get too near a tiger, for example, and I feel sure that if I met up with one, my body would tell me exactly that. My body will also tell me if someone I meet on the street is a threat. I believe there are all kinds of senses in human beings that we don't understand, some of which tell us what's good and what's bad without our having ever been taught. A study of primitive humans probably would corroborate that.

Bubble says she's not had experience with philosophers and great thinkers; yet scarcely a day goes by when she does not post a philosophical thought. I'm beginning to see a pattern here among these sages and philosophers we've discussed and are discussing. Not quite sure what it is yet; but I'm convinced one is there.

Why not? The questions and mysteries don't change, do they?

Mal

Mal, maybe you have given me here a clue to what I called "collective memory". A genetic hidden code? I also have a feeling that the more civilized we get and the less we use it so it is getting lost in disuse. I have always been in awe of the senses "primitive" natives seem to possess and I never could match. Bubble

Bubble - "We are creatures of habit and adaptability has become a "learned" trait, not an innate one. Oh how we love and luxuriate in comfort!" and what if adaptibility had been learned through survival instinct? I am just thinking that if in our family we had lived in comfort with loving parents in a safe, stable, functioning environment, I think that this instinct of survival that produces adaptibility would have stayed dormant and if it had not kicked in at an early stage in our life, it might not have developed at all.

In war ravaged countries people learn quickly to adapt in spite of terrible odds sometimes producing several geniuses who might not have had the compulsion to develop to their highest potential had they lived in luxurious comfort.

Eloïse

That is just what I was trying to express, Eloise.

IN stone age or prehistory or whatever, adaptability was in dayly use from necessity. In ravaged countries you will find people not able anymore to adapt, or lamenting the lost comfort instead of finding new ways. They also grumble more than most.

I have seen that with some ( not all thankfully!) newcomers, fleeing whatever bad situations they had in their places of origins. They receive a minimum here for starts. Instead of being grateful and trying to plan for a new or better future, they can only pick at what is not done for them. Bubble

Durant continues with the concepts of Heracleitus:--

"As the soul is a passing tongue of the endlessly changing flame of life, so God is the everlasting Fire, the indestructible energy of the world. He is the unity binding all opposites -- the harmony of all tensions -- the sum and meaning of all strife. This Divine Fire, like life (for the two are everywhere and one), is always altering its form -- always passing upward or downward on the ladder of change -- always consuming and remaking things. Indeed, some distant day, 'Fire will judge and convict all things,' destroy them, and make way for new forms, in a Last Judgment or cosmic catastrophe.

"Nevertheless, the operations of the Undying Fire are not without sense and order. If we could understand the world as a whole, we should see in it a vast impersonal wisdom, a Logos or Reason or Word. We should try to mold our lives into accord with this way of Nature -- this law of the universe -- this wisdom or orderly energy which is God.

"'It is wise to hearken not to me, but to the Word' -- to seek and follow the infinite reason of the whole."

Although some of the concepts here may seem very much like familiar religious concepts of our day, it might help to remember that these concepts of Heracleitus were presented in Ancient Greece about 2,500 years ago.

Robby

And haven't we seen them before in other civilizations mentioned in The Story of Civilization?

Mal

Isn't the Will to Survive in an ever changing world whether we live in adversity or luxurious comfort an innate sense?

Don't we have choices to do something to improve our lot or do nothing to change it.

Ancient civilazitions even in their struggle to survive point out that there are those individuals who dared to be different than the whole with their philosophy with their attitude toward what life should be. Fanatics that prospose harm to the entire human race are certainly and assuredly not wanted around by any civilization, past, present and future.

One of the most beautiful and mind-blowing things I have ever seen is a video I own titled FRACTALS, the Colors of Infinity . It shows, in gorgeous, ever-moving and changing colors, that out of chaos come ever-the-same and ever-moving patterns. This is the Mandelbrot Set, sometimes called "the thumbprint of God." Watching it evolve on the screen, and repeat and repeat and repeat the same, albeit in almost an infinity of sizes, the same exact patterns, is an awesome experience. Famous mathematicians and physicists break in from time to time to explain what has been discovered. Wish, while we are exploring change here, you could all join me for an hour in my living room to see this.

Did a scientist ever tell you there's order in chaos? If not, find one and ask him or her about it.

Mal

Just want to let you know that I have the URL's of every quote I post here. If you want any of them, just let me know.
Fundamentals of Chaos
"Chaos theory is a relatively new branch of mathematics concerned with complex and 'unpredictable' systems. Curiously, its principles are actually the opposite of chaos' normal meaning of 'utterly without order or arrangement'. I suppose that, as with 'catastrophe theory' before it, a snappy and provocative name was a PR must! Chaos theory is wide-ranging, but has three basic features:

"Complex systems that are apparently random and unpredictable, can have an underlying order. Chaos theory can be used to determine such underlying rules. Some degree of prediction, and/or quantifying the degree of unpredictability, may then be possible.

"Conversely, simple rules can lead to complex systems. The most famous examples are the Mandelbrot sets of fractal geometry, in which simple basic formulae generate strikingly complex and beautiful patterns, repeated in an infinite progression of scales.

"Amplification of tiny effects can lead to major changes. This is often called the 'butterfly effect'. The term is from computer models of weather, supposedly so sensitive to initial conditions that the outcome might be changed by the flapping of a butterfly's wings."

Did Heracleitus "flapping his wings" affect the direction in which Ancient Greece went?

Robby

Chaos theory is the qualitative study of unstable aperiodic behavior in deterministic nonlinear dynamical systems. Aperiodic behavior never repeats and it continues to manifest the effects of any small perturbation; hence, any prediction of a future state in a given system that is aperiodic is impossible.

History is aperiodic, since broad patterns in the rise and fall of civilizations may be sketched; however, no events ever repeat exactly.

Yes, Robby. Don't you think so?

If you click the link below you will see a computer painting done by Claire Read (winsum19) with a fractal design program she has.

CLAIRE'S PAINTING

"The theory of the Divine Fire passed down into Stoicism. The notion of a final conflagration was transmitted through Stoicism to Christianity. The Logos, or reason in nature, became in Philo and Christian theology the Divine Word -- the personified wisdom with which or through whom God creates and governs all things. In some measure it prepared for the early modern view of natural law.
"Virtue as obedience to nature became a catchword of Stocism. The unity of opposites revived vigorously in Hegel. The idea of change came back into its own with Bergson. The conception of strife and struggle as determining all things reappears in Darwin, Spencer, and Nietzsche -- who carries on, after twenty-four centuries, the war of Heracleitus against democracy."
And so, if any of us are strong enough or have the wish to continue Durant's Story of Civilization into the later centuries, we apparently will find Hegel, Bergson, Darwin, Spencer, Nietzsche and other philosophers saying exactly what Heracleitus and other Greeks said 2,500 years ago. If those Ancient Greeks made sense, what took us so long?

Robby

Thick head We descend from those cave-men, it took ever so long to aquire language and skills, didn't it?

Does each generation have to learn it all over again? Don't we ever pay attention to what's come before in history?

Mal

Nope! But you knew that!

Oh, yes, Mary Page, and I'm scared to death about what's happening right now.

Mal

Fear notwithstanding, Durant moves us on (see GREEN quotes above):--

"Colophon, a few miles north of Ephesus, derived its name, presumably, from the hill on whose slope it rose. Xenophanes, the anticlerical, born among them about 576, described the Colophonians as 'richly clothed in purple garments, proud of their luxuriously dressed hair wet with costly and sweet-smellng oils.'

Here, and perhaps at Smyrna, the poet Mimnermus (610) sang, for a people already infected with the languid pessimism of the East, his melancholy odes of fleeting youth and love. He lost his heart to Nanno, the girl who accompanied his songs with the plaintive obbligato of the flute. When she rejected his love (perhaps on the ground that a poet married is a poet dead)< he immortalized her with a sheaf of delicate elegiac verse."

Robby

Just a note to say Bubble and family OK!

Thanks, Bubble. We worry about you, you know!

"A more famous poet lived a century later in the near-by town of Teos. Anacreon wandered much, but in Teos he was born (563) and died (478). Many a court sought him, for among his contemporaries only Simonides rivaled him in fame.
"We find him joining a band of emigrants to Thracian Abdera, serving as soldier for a campaign or two, abandoning his shield in the poetic fashion of the time, and thereafter content to brandish a pen -- spending some years at the court of Polycrates in Samoa -- brought thence in official state, on a fifty-oared galley, to grace the palace of Hipparchus in Athens -- and, at last, after the Persian War, returning to Teos to ease his declining years with song and drink.
"He died at eighty-five, we are told, of a grape pit sticking in his throat."
Can we imagine a soldier of our time deserting the army to devote his time to poetry -- then at a later time being brought to the White House with honors on a battleship?

Robby

They'd hang or shoot him first.

THEN they'd honor him!

Me too, MAL. Not for myself, but for the whole planet full of people after I'm gone. I'll say it again: The Barbarians are at the Gates!

And some of them are some of us!

Thanks for checking in, BUBBLE. ROBBY is right, we do worry about you.

ANACREON (Musée D'Orsay)

Can you imagine -- a man's fame coming down through the years because he liked to drink and play around?

Robby

Er, Don Juan, Beau Brummel, Henry VIII, Congressman Wilbur Whatshisname?

MaryPage, Mal and Robby - You are a hoot.

Obviously, I am not taking the right path through life!

Robby

"Alexandria knew five books of Anacreon, but only disordered couplets remain. His manner was one of polished banter in tripping iambics. No topic seemed impure in his impeccable diction, or gross in his delicate verse. Instead of the vulgar virulence of Hipponax, or the trembling intensity of Sappho, Anacreon offered the urbane chatter of a court poet who would play Horace to any Augustus that pleased his fancy and paid for his wine.
"His Eros was ambidextrous, and reached impartially for either sex, but in his later years he gallantly gave the preference to women."

Robby

The role of history in contemporary life is limited. We all see that and wish it were not so. Each generation thinks its problems are unique.

The first level of history for each of us is the experience of our parents and that experience is largely ignored by the children. The experience of grandparents is much less useful to the new generation. Sure, the children listen to mama and grandma but they then do as they choose and we think that is as it should be. Sometimes the experience of great grandparents is available but that experience is rarely relevant in today's world. These are ,of course, generalizations because individually we are each able to make our experiences as relevant in the current generation as we can.

The next level of history is the broad brush exposure that one gets in high school and college. We come away from that knowing there were wars but not certain who fought whom and who the winners and losers were and why the war was deemed necessary. We learn who was President when "silver was king" but not the meaning of "cross of gold". We learn that alcohol prohibition was a wasteful exercise but ignore the lesson with indian hemp and what is much worse prevent its use as a medicinal drug. What we have learned somehow does not seem relevant in contemporary life.

The next level of history is the special experience of the scholar. This fellow does not speak in public very often and as a result his experience is often lost upon current decision makers. The audience for non fiction history writers is a limited audience. Can you imagine George Bush actually reading a book?

The final level of history comes to people such as ourselves who read the work of scholars and discuss the meaning and value of historical experience in contemporary life. We benefit but can we pass on our insight to the young in a meaningful way. I am uncertain about that.

Justin: Your post #747 is very true!

Justin, the bottom line is that we each learn from our own mistakes and experiences. It is mainly then that we remember experiences from our parents or kin and decide that they were right after all.

Maybe those scholars should be a must read for the people we have elected? I am not sure they wouldn't consider it dated, not actual or not fitting the present data. Bubble

As we continue with The Great Migration, we move on to Lesbos.--

"Above the Ionian Dodecapolis lay the twelve cities of mainland Aeolis, settled by Aeolians and Achaeans from northern Greece soon after the fall of Troy had opened Asia Manor to Greek immigration. Most of these cities were small, and played a modest role in history. The Aeolian isle of Lesbos rivaled the Ionian centers in wealth, refinement, and literary genius. Its volcanic soil made the island a very garden of orchards and vines. Of its five cities Myrilene was the greatest, almost as rich, through its commerce, as Miletus, Samos, and Ephesus.

"An overthrow of the landed aristocracy made the brave, rough Pittacus dictator for ten years, with powers like those of his friend and fellow Wise Man, Solon. The aristocracy conspired to recapture power, but Pittacus foiled them and exiled their leaders, including Alcaeus and Sappho, first from Mytilene and then from Lesbos itself.

"Alcaeus was a roistering firebrtand who mingled politics with poetry and made every other lyric raise the tocsin of revolt. Of aristocratic birth, he attacked Pittacus with a lusty scurrility that merited the crown of banishment. He molded his own poetic forms, to which posterity gave the name 'alcaics' and every stanza, we are told, had melody and charm

"For a while he sang of war, and described his home as hung with martial trophies and accouterments. However, when his own chance for heroism came, he threw away his shield, fled like Archilochus, and complimented himself lyrically on the valor of his discretion."

Discretion is the better part of valor?

Robby

Carrying Justin's thoughts a bit further, I begin to think we should rewrite the history TEXTbooks. We should stop the emphasis on students knowing the dates of wars and names of kings. Sure these things should be included, BUT, the chapters should center around the BIG ISSUES of the times and how they were or were not resolved.

For instance, if the Crusades were written up like a newspaper report of the times, complete with who said what and why and WHO these people were, with plenty of background, and what the politics were, well, I think young and old today would have a better understanding of some of the factors behind the present day threats to our country.

In short, children should not be tested on knowing WHO issued the Emancipation Proclamation and in precisely what year, but on What It Was and Why It Was Important!

ALCAEUS AND SAPPHO

COME! PUT BY PELOPS' ISLE

Come! Put by Pelops' Isle
Zeus' and Leda's hero sons
Castor and Polydeuces
Come!

Over the earth's breadth and the width
of the Sea come swiftly on strange horses.
You can take away death from these men
great cold threats.

Quick! up the mast of the well-built ship
bright from afar. Quick! Up the rigging.
In the pain of night bring light
to the dark ship.

Alcaeus

Tr. Fred Beake

He is more than a hero

He is a god in my eyes __ the man who is allowed to sit beside you __ he

who listens intimately to the sweet murmur of your voice, the enticing

laughter that makes my own heart beat fast. If I meet you suddenly, I can't

speak __ my tongue is broken; a thin flame runs under my skin; seeing nothing,

hearing only my own ears drumming, I drip with sweat; trembling shakes my body

and I turn paler than dry grass. At such times death isn't far from me

Sappho translated by Mary Barnard

"Said Strabo: 'Sappho was a marvelous woman, for in all the time of which we have record I do not know of any woman who could rival her even in a slight degree in the matter of poetry.'
"Psappha, as she called herself in her soft Aeolic dialect, was born at Eresus, on Lesbos, about 612. Her family moved to Mytilene when she was still a child. In 593 she was among the conspiring aristocrats whom Pittacus banished to the town of Pyrrha. Already at nineteen she was playing a part in public life through politics or poetry. She was not known for beauty. Her figure was small and frail. Her hair and eyes and skin were darker than the Greeks desired, but she had the charm of daintiness, delicacy, refinement, and a brilliant mind that was not too sophisticated to conceal her tenderness. 'My heart,' she says, 'is like that of a child.'
"We know from her verses that she was of a passionate nature, one whose words, says Plutarch, 'were mingled with flames.' A certain sensuous quality gave body to the enthusiasm of her mind. Atthis, her favorite pupil, spoke of her as dressed in saffron and purple, and garlanded with flowers. She must have been attractive in her minuscule way, for Alcaeus, exiled with her to Pyrrha, soon sent her an invitation to romance. 'Violet-crowned, pure, sweet-smiling Sappho, I want to say something to you, but shame prevents me.'
"Her answer was less ambiguous than his proposal. 'If thy wishes were fair and noble, and thy tongue designed not to utter what is base, shame would not cloud thine eyes, but thou wouldnst speak thy just desires.' The poet sang her praises in odes and serenades, but we hear of no further intimacy between them."
Robby

MaryPage: You make a good point about school age people understanding issues but I'm wondering how to make complex issues understandable to the young mind. In public school we learned dates and names and battles and treaties. In university these subjects were fleshed out by learning about the issues. But even as a university student, I was memorizing dates, names, lists of issues so they could be compared to other lists of issues. I don't know when understanding actually started. It wasn't in university.

When I look at my philosophy textbook now, I see the underlinings done by a nineteen-year-old. I was memorizing lists for exams. Now when I read the material, I get much more understanding out of it than I did then.

My point is, particularly with philosophy but probably applicable to other subjects, when a philosopher spends a lifetime thinking through his or her solution to a problem, how can callow youth grasp a lifetime of thought and 'get it'? Surely it takes a lifetime of living to understand another's lifetime of thought.

"Surely it takes a lifetime of living to understand another's lifetime of thought."A comment worthy of a Greek philosopher.

Robby

North Star thank you for expressing what I "feel". in post 758. faith

Thanks Robby and Faithr.

No! Not a lifetime! There isn't that much time.

I never studied philosophy in college or any time than now. I read and developed my own philosophy, which, strangely enough encompasses a lot of what I have read in The Story of Civilization. What's more, I live by what I believe; taught it to my kids from the time they were very young and to anyone who would listen.

What I believe is based on reason, and I suspect it will endure through those with whom I've been in contact long after I'm dead.

We don't have to wait lifetimes before understanding and spreading the word of reason. Thinking that we do is a big mistake.

Mal

Mary Page: Well said. "Who and When" are not as important as "What and Why". One trend driving educators away from "what and why" is the preference for short answer testing. "What and Why" questions call for essays and essays require more correction time than short answer "who and when" questions.

Mal: you are so right. If one cannot figure out Heraclitus' or Plato's message in a few hours one should return to the comics as a pastime. Development of the message may have taken Heraclitus a life time but passing it on should require little more than the time to read and to grasp its significance. The grasping part may take a little time because we seldom reach understanding in one pass.

"Pittacus banished her in the year 591 when one would have thought her still a harmless girl. About this time she married a rich merchant of Andros. She could afford to reject the wealth of Lydia, having inherited that of her husband on his early death.
"After five years of exile she returned to Lesbos, and became a leader of the island's society and intellect. She became deeply attached to her young brother Charaxus, and was vexed to her finger tips when, on one of his mercantile journeys to Egypt, he fell in love with the courtesan Doricha, and, ignoring his sister's entreaties, married her.
"Meanwhile Sappho too had felt the fire. Eager for an active life, she had opened a school for young women, to whom she taught poetry, music, and dancing. It was the first 'finishing school' in history. She called her students not pupils but hetairai -- compansions. The word had not yet acquired a promiscuous connotation. Husbandless, Sappho fell in love with one after another of these girls."

Robby

I note that the works of Sapho were destroyed by the Roman Church in 1050 CE. What we have left of her comes from wrapping paper. Religious groups have done so much damage in the world it is a wonder people still see good in religious messages.

"gave his voluntarily severed head to his friends so that they might claim the reward that had been promised for it"

Oh, how I would love to know more of this story. The Durants comment that it is a great story for someone to write up. Well, I could not agree more! But where is it? I tried 2 search engines, and one had nothing and the other offered one site. In Greek! At least, I think it was Greek. It was Greek to me!

Surely Drimachus was a hero worthy of a Braveheart type movie!

But all I am seeking at this moment is an answer to the question: Was he alive when his head was cut off? Or did he, which sounds more reasonable, give permission, indeed orders, for his head to be removed and sent for the reward after he died of natural causes?

I have been a champion of Sappho since I was a young teenager. She was not just a poet and a musician. She was a politician with a strong voice, a leader, a teacher. She was a wife and mother, a very rich woman, a great friend. In my eyes, she was possibly the greatest poet who ever lived. I do bow to some of the Chinese and Persians.

I seethe with anger and resentment at what was done to her memory and reputation. "the most famous of Greek women. Even in her lifetime all Greece honored Sappho." Yet it became popular among male writers of later generations to ruin her reputation. She became a victim of nasty fiction, when no one who knew her was left to come to her defense. There is every reason to believe she lived to an old age and was never a suicide. There is every indication she adored her students and had close ties to them, but was no Lesbian. In smearing her memory, they even managed to manufacture a word to describe what they were accusing her of!

I am curious to know whether the "coffins of papier-mache" were boxes to keep valuables in, which have been called coffins in the past, but are no longer; or whether they indeed held the dead. It tickles my fancy to think that if the latter were true, then Sappho's poems literally came to us from the grave!

I could wax eloquent on the subject of how women have not dared to be front and center in endeavors which would put them in public view, and how this has been going on for thousands and thousands of years. We still see it going on today, right here in our country. Over the centuries, women have had to write and paint and compose using a male as a front. The Bronte sisters, for instance, offered their works for publication under male pen names. They would not have even been read otherwise!

Perhaps the TIME choice of 3 women for Man of The Year will not assist our cause. If you read their stories, you will have discovered 3 women of strong ethics who made unpleasant waves for the male bastions of allow wrong-doing and look the other way!

"A passage in Suidas tells how 'the courtesan Sappho' -- usually identified with the poetess -- leaped to death from a cliff on the island of Leucas because Phaon the sailor would not return her love. Menander, Strabo, and othrs refer to the story, and Ovid recounts it in loving detail. It has many earmarks of legend, and must be left hovering nebulously between fiction and fact.
"In her later years, tradition said, Sappho had relearned the love of men. Among the Egyptian morsels is her touching reply to a proposal of marriage: 'If my breasts were still capable of giving suck, and my womb were able to bear children, then to another marriage-bed not with trembling feet would I come. But now on my skin age has brought many lines, and Love hastens not to me with his gift of pain' -- and she advises her suitor to seek a younger wife.
"In truth we do not know when she died, or how. We know only that she left behind her a vivid memory of passion, poetry, and grace. She shone even above Alcaeus as the most melodious singer of her time."

Robby

As Durant prepares to leave The Great Migration and move to The Greeks in the West, he speaks to us a bit about the "Northern Empire." --

"North of Lesbos is little Tenedos, whose women were accounted by some ancient travelers to be the most beautiful in Greece. Then one follows the adventurous Hellenes into the northern Sporades to Imbros, and Lemnos, and Samothrace.

"The Milesians, seeking to control the Hellespont, founded, about 560, the still-living town of Abydos on its south shore. Here Leander and Byron swam the straits, and Xerxes' army crossed to Europe on a bridge of boats. Further eastward the Phocaeans settled Lampsacus, birthplace of Epicurus.

"Within the Propontis lay two groups of islands -- the Proconnesus, rich in the marble that gave the Propontis its current name, the Sea of Marmora -- and the Aretonnesus, on whose southernmost tip the Milesians established in 757 the great port of Cyzicus.

"Along the coast rose one Greek city after another -- Panormus, Dascylium, Apameia, Cius, Astacus, Chalcedon. Up through the Bosporus the Greeks advanced, hungry for metals, grain, and trade, founding Chrysopolis (now Scutari) and Nicopolis -- the 'city of victory.'

"Then they made their way along the southern shore of the Black Sea, depositing towns at Heracleia, Pontica, Tieum, and Sinope -- a city splendidly adorned, says Strabo, with gymnasium, agora, and shady colonnades. Diogenes the Cynic was not above being born here.

"Then Amisus, Oenoe, Tripolis, and Trapezus (Trebizond, Trabzon) -- where Xenophon's Ten Thousand shouted with joy at the sight of the longed-for sex.

"The opening up of this region to Greek colonization, perhaps by Jason, later by the Ionians, gave the mother cities the same outlet for surplus population and trade, the same resources in food, silver, and gold, that the discovery of America gave to Europe at the beginning of modern times."

Lots of rich history here. Lots to discuss. Crossing the straits on a bridge of boats reminds me of our Army outfit crossing the Rhine the same way during WWII.

Robby

Below is a link to the text of Xenophon's Anabasis, an account he wrote about the march to Persia to aid Cyrus.

ANABASIS

Click the link and scroll down to see an article about Xenophon and The Art of Horsemanship.

XENOPHON: FATHER OF CLASSICAL EQUITATION

The article I've linked here has some pretty pictures of Lesbos. Near the bottom of the page is a link to some Greek words and phrases which might interest you.

LESBOS

That last sentence was very tantalizing! Thanks.

I'm glad you posted, Bubble. I was a little bit worried about you.

Mal

I did in WREX too, a little before.

I hadn't been in there, Bubble, until a minute ago. I've been busy this morning doing publishing work offline.

Mal

"Following the eastern shores of the Euxine northward into Medea's Colchis, the Greeks founded Phasis and Dioscurias, and Theodosia and Panticapaeum in the Crimea. Near the mouths of the Bug and the Dnieper they established the city of Olbia (Nikolaev) -- at the mouth of the Dniester, the town of Tyras -- and on the Danube, Troesmis.
"Then, moving southward along the west shore of the Black Sea, they built the cities of Istrus (Constanta, Kustenje), Tomi (where Ovid died), Odessus (Varna), and Apollonia (Burgas).
"The historically sensitive traveler stands appalled at the antiquity of these living towns. Today's residents, engrossed in the tasks of their own generation, are undisturbed by the depth of the centuries that like silent beneath them."
I assume it is hard for most citizens of Western civilizations to visualize living in a town which lies over towns in the earth beneath them and which existed 2,500 years ago.

Robby

Many towns like that here. Whenever they dig for a new building they find ruins, pieces of potteries, etc. Walking on the shore in Cesarea you can be lucky and find Greek or Roman coins as well as small pieces of Roman glass polished by the waves. Bubble

We're not old enough a country to have a 2500 year old town underneath us, but there's still plenty there. I've seen shows on HGTV where people have found pre-revolutionary artifacts on the property they own. I found arrowheads when I was a child that were much older than that.

Just think. Most plastics are non-biodegradable. What treasures somebody will find centuries from now, here in ExtremeTrashville, USA.

Mal

Get a little entertainment and music in your life by clicking the link below. Many of these songs are based on ancient melodies, by the way. (Okay, lunch break is over. Back to work.)

GREEK MIDI FILES

Here is an ELEMENTARY MAP of the Crimean peninsula which actually gives us a very good idea of the area covered by the Ancient Greek Northern Empire.

Robby

Durant leaves the Great Migration and moves us along to

The Greeks in the West:--

"Skirting Sunium again, our ship of fancy, sailing westwad, finds Cythera, island haunt of Aphrodite, and therefore the goal of Watteau's Embarkation. Watteau's painting, Embarkation for Cythera, symbolized the spirit of the upper classes in eighteenth-century France, which had shed just enough theology to be epicurean. There, about A.D. 160, Pausanias saw 'the most holy and ancient of all the temples that the Greeks have built to Aphrodite.' There, in 1887, Schliemann dug its ruins out of the earth.

"Cythera was the southernmost of the Ionian Islands that bordered the west coast of Greece, and so named because Ionian immigrants settled them. Zacynthos, Cephallenia, Ithaca, Leucas, Paxos, and Coreyra made the rest. Schliemann thought that Ithaca was the island of Odysseus, and vainly sought under its soil some confirmation of Homer's tale.

"Dorpfeld believed that Odysseus' home was on rocky Leucas. From the cliffs of Leucas, as an annual sacrifice to Apollo, the ancient Leucadians, says Strabo, were in the habit of hurling a human victim. Being men as well as theologians, they mercifully attached to him powerful birds whose wings might break his fall. Probably the story of Sappho's leap is bound up with memories of this rite.

"Corinthian colonists occupied Corcyra (Corfu) about 734 B.C. and soon became so strong that they defeated Corinth's navy. From Corcyra some Greek adventurers sailed up the Adriatic as far as Venice. Some made small settlements on the Dalmatian coast and in the valley of the Po. Others crossed at last through fifty miles of stormy water to the heel of Italy."

Now we are beginning to see some familiar names which one might consider European.

Robby

CLICK HERE FOR EMBARKATION FOR CYTHERA BY WATTEAU

Click on "Image Viewer" and look at a full-size picture of this most beautiful work of art.

Eloïse

That is beautiful, Eloise!

Robby

I see that you're familiar with Mark Harden's Artchive, Eloise. It's one of the best art sites on the web. Watteau painted some lovely pictures. If I'm not mistaken I've seen some of them at the Frick in New York.

Mal

Mal, I found Embarkation for Cythera by Watteau in Google. I went to the Musée d'Orsey in Paris a few times, but I am not prepared to wait in line hours for a visit of the Louvres where this painting is. I find that works of art on the web gives us almost as much pleasure to view as if we are standing in front of the original and at home we can spend as much time as we want examining it without being disturbed by too many people around.

Eloïse

Eloise, I've spent hours and hours looking at paintings on the web. Take a tour at the Artchive sometime. www.artchive.com I think you'll be pleased. The quality of the pictures on that site is excellent.

Mal

I think it's wonderful that the isle of Cythera brings us to Watteau. He is a realist in a period of genre painters. Le Nain and Chardin are his colleagues but he is in his early period influenced by the theatre which he mixes with nature. The characters in his "Embarcation" are theatre people dressed in theatre costume and placed in a natural setting. Some of his work is called "Poetic Realism". Two such works really worth looking at are "Giles" and L'Enseigne de Gersaint". The latter is a painting I enjoy very much. It is ten feet by twenty feet and is sometimes called "An afternoon at the Drapers. The work is absolutely exquisite. Try bringing it up Mal. Unfortunately he died very young and like Mozart his potential for continued magnificence was very great.

I once had the unexpected pleasure, one rainy afternoon in Paris, of finding a retrospective of his works. Last day of the exhibition. I spent the entire afternoon in that gallery and did not want to leave. Over forty paintings and many support drawings in pencil were in the exhibition. The experience was over thirty years ago and I remember it well.

My new great grand son has been to visit me. I see great things in him. His mother named him Joshua and when I told her the name was Hebrew in origin and for short she could call him Yeshua, she was delighted. Then I told her in Greek the same name was Jeseus or Jesus. She thought I was pulling her leg. Wait till she figures it out.

The Corinthian colonists did nothing Britain, and its European neighbors managed to do throughout the world. The US, after we got the hang of it, were also takeover colonialists. We did it in China and in Manifest Destiny in the US, in the nineteenth century. Why we missed Cuba was stupidity. The game may be continuing as we search for oil in Irag.

Justin, Yeoshua (the name) and Yeshua (the noun) means in Hebrew Deliverance. The prefix Ye or Jo is a name for God.

I want to congratulate you on your progeny Justin, you are very blessed with a great grandson named Joshua.

Bubble, I didn't know that, thanks for telling us.

"The Greek invaders found a magnificent shore line, curved into natural harbors and backed by a fertile hinterland that had been almost neglected by the aborigines. Natural resources unexploited by the native population draw in a kind of chemical attraction -- some other people to exploit them and pour them into the commerce and usage of the world.
"From Brentesium (Brindisi) the newcomers, chiefly Dorian, traversed the heel of the peninsula to establisha major city at Taras -- the Roman Tarentum (Taranto). There they grew olives, raised horses, manufactured pottery, built ships, netted fish, and gathered mussels to make a purple dye more highly valued than the Phoenician.
"As in most of the Greek colonies, the government began as an oligarchy of landowners, passed under dictators financed by the middle class, and enjoyed vigorous and turbulent intervals of democracy.
"Here the romantic Pyrrhus would land, in 281 B.C., and undertake to play Alexander to the West."
The phrase "intervals of democracy" implies to me that Democracy isn't something that followed another form of government and then continued on but that it had to be fought for -- then lost, then won, then lost, and so on. Any comments on this?

Robby

One thing sure, democracy goes down when the barbarians are allowed to barge through the gates or to get in power.

Mal

PYRRHUS AND A MAP OF HIS ROUTE

Robbie, when you quote these passages from Durant, are you having to type these into the computer from the book? Or do you have some kind of scanner that transfers the print? I keep worrying about this because it seems like such a lot of work you are doing to give us something interesting to think about.

Shasta:--I have the book in front of me and I copy Durant word by word. I have been doing this for years now including the previous volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," and before that, de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America." However, I do not type out the entire volume. I choose sections and paragraphs in such a way that it does not disturb the continuity. Generally speaking I go chapter by chapter and section by section. Those who have the book often comment on a paragraph or sub-section that I omitted and that's OK with me.
So far I have not felt fatigued, partly because I only type a paragraph or so a day (I am a fast typist) and partly because the interchange among you all keeps me stimulated. The other day I clicked onto a link related to longevity. It was one where one gave one's present age and then one had to answer various answers regarding smoking, alcohol, exercise, genes, etc. etc. A box in the upper corner added (or neglected to add) years as the test was followed.
I gave my present age of 82 and the "result" was that I will live to be 101. So I guess I will be able to continue on for a couple of more volumes!!

Robby

That map, Mal, shows that we are indeed thinking European as we follow Durant's travels. Now the Greeks are as far as what is now Rome.

Robby

"The murderous jealousy between the kindred states of Sybaris and Crotona illustrates the creative energy and destructive passions of the Greeks. Trade between eastern Greece and western Italy had a choice of two routes, one by water, the other in part by land. Ships following the water route touched at Crotona, and exchanged many goods there. Thence they passed to Rhegium, paid tolls, and moved cautiously through pirate-ridden seas and the swirling currents of the Messina Straits to Elea and Cumae -- the northernmost Greek settlement in Italy.
"To avoid these tolls and perils, and a hundred extra miles of rowing and sailing, merchants who chose the other route unloaded their cargoes at Sybaris, carried them overland some thirty miles to the western coast at Laaus, and reshipped them to Poseidonia, whence they were marketed into the interior of Italy.
"Strategically situated on this line of trade, Sybaris prospered until it had 300,000 population and such wealth as few Greek cities could match. Sybarite became a synonym for epicurean. All physical labor was performed by slaves or serfs while the citizens, dressed in costly robes, took their east in luxurious homes and consumed exotic delicacies. Men whose work was noisy, such as carpenters and smiths, were forbidden to practice their crafts within the confines of the city.
"Some of the roads in the richer districts were covered with awnings, as a protection against heat and rain. Alcisthenes of Sybaris, says Aristotle, had a robe of such precious stuffs that Dionysius I of Syracuse later sold it for 120 talents ($720,000). Smyndyrides of Sybaris, visiting Sicyon to sue for the hand of Cleisthenes' daughter, brought with him a thousand servants."
Roads in the richer districts covered with awnings. How modern can you get?

Robby

Thank you Bubble. I expect great things from Yeoshua. He looks god- like to me.

Eloise: Thank you for your felicitations.

Durant is gradually moving us from the Near East influence to that of being "European." He has mentioned the settling of North Africa along with the settling of Italy and other coasts. Nowhere along the line does he bring up the subject of "racial types." Please click onto this LINK and share your thoughts with us.

Robby

Here is the LOCATION OF SYBARIS in Southern Italy. Click onto the map to enlarge it. Some current-day Italians may be surprised to learn that their ancient ancestors were Greek.

Robby

Here is a map of the current-day region of CALABRIA in Italy, the area we are now discussing. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

"All went well with Sybaris until it slipped into war with its neighbor Crotona (510). We are unreliably informed that the Sybarites marched out to battle with an army of 300,000 men. The Crotoniates, we are further assured, threw this force into confusion by playing the tunes to which the Sybarites had taught their horses to dance. The horses danced, the Sybarites were slaughtered, and their city was so conscientiously sacked and burned that it disappeared from history in a day.
"When, sixty-five years later, Herodotus and other Athenians established near the site the new colony of Thurii, they found hardly a trace of what had been the proudest community in Greece."
So much for immortality, as far as civilizations go.

Robby

That article on races and color was very interesting. Particularly the illustrations. That Grecian profile can still be found but seems unusual today because we are so used to a more marked angle between nose and brow.
I had a smile with the illustration of one "obviously semite next to the African type". When I looked at it, before reading the caption, I said to myself: this one is typically Persian.
Bubble

On your LINK Robby several interesting racial elements that the author mentions - and is not mentioned by Durant I believe - came up that I had to list them as causing the fall of Classical Grecian civilization. Permit me to list them here:

"Democracy and Oligarchy came into direct conflict with one another...
Colonization and slavery left its mark ultimately...
Greeks prided themselves with fairest eyes...
Greeks died their hair blond...
Northernization of Greek culture...
Plato was the first renown philosopher to recognize race as a factor in the rise and fall of civilization..
The darkening of the population runs directly in tandem with the decline and fall of Classical Greece...
The downfall of Classical Greece - the importation of non-white slaves. It was the importation of large numbers of racially foreign slaves which led to the dissolution of Classical Greece"...

Am I wrong in thinking that there is a lot here that resembles our own civilization?

Eloïse

Eloise:--When you put it all into a concise list like that, it appears very familiar and makes one think that racial division and "hatred" has "always" existed and will "always" be with us. What is this about the human race that causes that? And, if I remember correctly, even among other primates this awareness of difference occurs.

Robby

Why is it that the green eyes of the Afghan girl with darkish skin had such an impact in the West? Her eyes is what struck me when I first saw that picture in Time Magazine 18 years ago, and for all that time, people were wondering who she was, when they found out, she was just like an ordinary Afghan mother aged before her time and no longer striking. Her green eyes had an electric quality.

Is color that important? white skin that desirable? blond hair that attractive? Why is it that the color of the skin of a human being has anything to do with values, intelligence, character, when it was proved time and time again that intelligence has no racial preference, except that it develops better in a comfortable home.

Why is that in the Northern hemisphere, human beings are more powerful, wealthier, more comfortable than people living in the Southern hemisphere. Is it because the temperate climate is better suited for development? Greek philosophy developed in the ideal climate surrounding the Mediterranean sea.

Has anyone found answers to that?

Eloïse

"The downfall of Classical Greece - the importation of non-white slaves. It was the importation of large numbers of racially foreign slaves which led to the dissolution of Classical Greece."
It was not the importation of "large numbers of racially foreign slaves" which led to the dissolution of Classical Greece! It was the invasion of democracy and reason by people with different and probably non-progressive ideas, plus other factors, which caused that downfall.

The author of that article sounds like a racist to me.

Mal

Eloise, differences are not acceptable, whatever race one is. Green eyes where there shouldn't be green eyes, one leg shorter than the other, a humpback, a congenitally withered arm, blindness, the wrong color skin for the locale, a club foot -- these things are not acceptable because they're feared. Go back to primitive human beings; go back to animals. Witness the process of selection there.

As far as I can see, climate has nothing to do with it; it is geography. If a place is accessible to other places and other influences as Classical Greece was, it thrives. If it is not, it doesn't.

Mal

My French wife had dark skin (she described it as cafe-au-lait) and green eyes. There was Senegalise in her ancestry.

Robby

Mal, that Afghan girl with green eyes was stunning. She was on the cover of N.Geo.Magazine and her look haunted me! I even tried to paint her with no success. The follow up, years later was very sad. Sometimes the unusual has more appeal, if it is not too odd.

Robby, we had many Senegalese ambulant merchants and craftmen in Congo. Those we saw were very tall, well built and what was most striking was their proud bearing. But one cannot generalize, I suppose there were shorter people too?
They made beautiful carvings. I am most sorry I never kept any of those beautiful pieces but gave them all as presents.

What is a Minority? by Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca

The Afghan girl was a beauty and is a beauty, in my eyes, regardless of the extremely unusual eyes. I have the original Geographic from June 1985, plus the April 2002 follow up and the video. I have a daughter with blonde hair and gorgeous green eyes, but this Afghan girl's eyes were special. Many Afghan tribes are quite Aryan, and there are a lot of green eyes among them. This girl's eyes, which I look at as I write, were extra large ones and wide-spread in a beautiful face. The color went from a pale sea-green in the center to a dark turquoise at the rim of the iris. THAT was overlaid with what looks like a marguerite: or golden petaled daisy. Stunning!

It is my bet that the light/dark thing goes way back a few hundred thousand years to when we were more ape like. I believe I read that such prejudices have been noted in studies of several varieties of ape. You might also think of all of us being dark, when homo sapiens first appeared, and then, as we left the equater and headed, slowly over many years, to the Northern mountains and the snow belts, in small family units (they say made up of an average of 23 people!), the centuries of living in the North paled the skin, with that gene being handed down. The hair and eyes were lightened as well, all probably due to the greatly reduced exposure to sunlight. Then THOSE people, over millennia, multiplied and, the Dorians for instance, headed SOUTH again! But there were, ever afterwards, as there still are, FEWER of them on this planet. The exotic is ever desirable, and so it is that there is a yearning for lighter skin even among those with the darkest. Not fair, but then, all of us in here know by now that life is most definitely not fair!

I have always said I would gladly give my freckles to anyone in exchange for that cafe au lait skin ROBBY's wife had. Felt that way from age 11 on, as far as I can remember, but now the feeling is much stronger, and not for reasons of beauty. The problems of fair skin in old age are horrendous, believe me!

In Robby's article, he asks which attitude is in the majority. I think more people desire lighter skin than darker, and that there is less prejudice towards skin color than people hold to be the case these days. Therefore I would argue that when it comes to thinking at all of skin color, millions of dark skinned people want lighter skins, while few light skinned people think about it at all.

" that all civilizations rise and fall according to their racial homogeneity and nothing else - a nation can survive wars, defeats, natural catastrophes, but not racial dissolution"

This is a quote from the author of the link Robby gave us re: racial influence on civilization.

This whole thought seems like nonsense to me. I also read the article and went to the page on the gene study and then returned to the home page Titled How The White Race etc. I too think there is a lot of information presented with twisted meanings given by this author. What is racial dissolution anyway. Take a tiny land like Greece was and isolate it, then it might be a logical statement, but it was not isolated.Greece reached out to the whole known world in those years before the common era. And it was a true melting pot of peoples. Like the United States is today and becoming more so. Some say to our detriment I know . Is that what they call racial dissolution? This land where many races can be treated as equal before the law, and before society, is that going to contribute to the fall of civilization, I don't think so. What a lot to think about. Of course mad men like Hitler thought about this and came up with some evil philosophy.fr

Here is a fascinating LINK telling us of the use of the Greek language in present-day Italy.

Robby

Additional FACTS about Italians in Italy today who do not speak Italian.

Robby

It wasn't the infiltration of darker races that destroyed Greek civilization. It was all those stupid wars that decimated the population.

I had forgotten about dear old Diogenes who lived in a jar. Every time I think about this, I start trying to figure out how anybody could live in a jar. I never have a proper appreciation of history and all its endless wars. It's the strange little quirks that fascinate me -- like Diogenes in his jar.

Speaking of war and peace, let us see what Durant has for us. (Note new GREEN quotes in the Heading.)

"Crotona lasted longer than Sybaris. Founded about 710 B.C., it is, as Crotone, still noisy with industry and trade. It had the only natural harbor between Taras and Sicily, and could not forgive those ships that discharged their cargoes at Sybaris. Enough trade remained to give the citizens a comfortable prosperity, while a wholesome defeat in war, a long economic depression, a brisk climate, and a certain Dorico-Puritan mood in the population conspired to keep them vigorous despite their wealth. Here grew famous athletes like Milo, and the greatest school of medicine in Magna Grecia, the name given by the Romans to the Greek cities in southern Italy.

"The name Crotona means 'mouthpiece of the Pythian' oracle at Delphi. Many of his followers considered him to be Apollo himself, and some laid claim to having caught a flash of his golden thigh.

"Tradition assigned his birth to Samos about 580, spoke of his studious youth, and gave him thirty years of travel. Says Heracleitus, 'Of all men, Pythagoras was the most assiduous inquirer.' He visited, we are told, Arabia, Syria, Phoenicia, Chaldea, India, and Gaul, and came back with an admirable motto for tourists -- 'When you are traveling abroad, look not back at your own borders.'

"Most surely he visited Egypt, where he studied with the priests and learned much astronomy and geometry, and perhaps a little nonsense. Returning to Samos and finding that the dictatorship of Polycrates interfered with his own, he migrated to Crotona, being now over fifty years of age."

Robby

Phytagoras and from here we can click on the link that takes us to the magnificent School Of Athens By Raphael that Mal gave a link to earlier.

Eloïse

ROBBY, I was able to access your first link, but not the second. The second took me to Yahoo and an announcement that I could not get there.

Something happened to the second link. I tested it after I posted it and it was OK but it related to Calabria and maybe the Mafia has done something with it.

Robby

No doubt. That's probably it.

A history of the white race might interest Trent Lott but rational unbiased people should care little for the kind of treatment this author has given the subject. His interest is superficial rather than scholarly. He seeks to persuade rather than to enlighten. I think his piece is racist writing.

Therefore I would argue that when it comes to thinking at all of skin color, millions of dark skinned people want lighter skins, while few light skinned people think about it at all.

That is probably because dark skinned people feel the discrimination, more than an aesthetic wish! I found the discrimination is strong still in Europe, and even here. It is too long I haven't visited in Africa to say if it as changed there. It was called a "paternal attitude" toward the local population.... Bubble

The white races, through their technological expertise, have developed greater 'killing power' than the Coloured peoples. This has enabled them to exploit the economic wealth of both the white and non white regions of the world. This in turn has enabled white folk to develop science, medicine, mathematics, (which they inherited from the middle East), and use same to maintain the 'civilised superiority' of the West over the East. The division by the way, is not between the North and the South, as someone remarked above, but rather between the West and the East.

While this has nothing to do with our study of Greece, I believe the 21st century will see the eclipse of 'Western power' by that of the East.-- Trevor

"I believe the 21st century will see the eclipse of 'Western power' by that of the East."
That's a powerful statement, Trevor! Putting it another way, I interpret your statement to mean that those civilizations we visited in Our Oriental Heritage will "win" out over Greece and the civilizations to be written about in the later Durant volumes.

Robby

Occasionally we post here a link to something that helps answer the first question in the Heading above -- What Are Our Origins? We are currently examining Ancient Greece as we move westward away from the Orient but this LINK reminds us that there may have already been people living in what is now called Europe. These people may not have been "civilized" from the point of view of those Greeks, but people nevertheless.

Robby

"I believe the 21st century will see the eclipse of 'Western power' by that of the East.-- Trevor"

There is danger in that because the Durants told us that comfort and wealth rots a civilization and it seems that we are close to having reached the top of the heap, and when we become soft and vulnerable, barbarians attack to exterminate and start a new civilization from scratch.

That is the lesson historians like the Durants tell us.

Eloïse

"Pythagoras set up in Crotona as a teacher. His imposing presence, his varied learning, and his willingness to receive women as well as men into his school soon brought him several hundred students. Two centuries before Plato he laid down the principle of equal opportunity for both sexes, and did not merely preach it but practiced it
"Nevertheless he recognized natural differences of function. He gave his women pupils considerable training in philosophy and literature, but he had them instructed as well in maternal and demestic arts, so that the 'Pythagorean women' were honored by antiquity as the highest feminine type that Greece ever produced."
Any reactions here? (As if I didn't know the answer!)

Robby

TREVOR, I am the poster who spoke of the difference in skin color being a North/South thing, but I was going back to the beginnings of homo sapiens. Postulating that we all began in approximately the Rift Valley of Equatorial Africa, and that we were all approximately the same color, I was following our breaking off into small tribal groups that moved out from the first groups. Some of these got all the way up into the Northern frigid zones, where the long winters and short hours of sunlight caused, over many millennia, the skin to lighten and the eye colors to lighten, as well. This I still believe to be the most accurate explanation anthropology has come up with thus far as to how we came to have these differences.

I totally agree with you about the East/West position the world is in today, and when I say "the barbarians are at the gates", I am expressing my belief that the West will lose out in this struggle. I am not trying to call our enemies "barbarians", but am using the historical reference to what happened to Rome. Rome thought it was superior and safe. It was neither. I see us in a parallel position.

I also agree with BUBBLE about the effects of colonialism.

Finally, I foresee our (the U.S.A.'s) future alienation from the EU as being a large factor, and one we will appreciate too late, in our present culture going down the tubes. I view this, also, as the same type of arrogance the Romans exhibited prior to their downfall. Again, this is why I continually use that expression, meaning not to label anyone barbaric, but to state that we are positioned now for our eventual downfall.

If, in the opinion of some, the Western Civilization is already "on its way down," then at what point was it at its zenith?

Robby

Robby Thanks for that link. How I wish I could visit that exhibition!

About post# 831, well we all know that we are at least equal, don't we? Bubble

I maintain that there is no way anyone can tell when a civilization will fall. There may be recognizable symptoms, but who in the world can predict anything that might happen? I also maintain that there's more than one civilization in the West, and that civilizations which have fallen as empires in the past still exist in a different way. It would take more of a seer than I am to predict the end of my world as I know it today.

Mal

Anyway, the same as a civilisation is not built in one day, neither is it destroyed in one. It takes quite a few steps back in time to be able to see there is a change or a trend in a different direction. Bubble

ROBBY, I see the zenith of the United States in world history as the point in 1989 when we became the only super power left. To go any further and offer opinions as to what we might do to protect this nation from dissolution would be to get into the political, and so I will leave it there.

FOUNDATIONS OF GREEK GEOMETRY: PYTHAGORAS Scroll down

The link below takes you to a page about pre-Socratic philosophy in Greece. Scroll down to read about Pythagoras, but take time to read what comes before, if you can.

GREEK PHILOSOPHY

Robby, Pythagoras understood women psyche more than any ruler I have read about.

MaryPage, I agree with everything you said is in Post #832.

Mal, There are recognizable symptoms very similar to what we have learned in S of C. It might not happen in our lifetime though.

Bubble, right but I don't think we are on a downfall yet. It takes shattering happenings such as someone smart enough to scramble all the banking systems in the world stored in complicated world wide web computer systems and BANG all the currencies in the world could vanish into thin air, leaving only solid gold currency stored inside high mountains or deep underground left for trade.

Again Bubble, "we all know that we are at least equal" but I would leave out 'at least'.

Gee we are having fun!!!!

Eloïse

Do you realize how difficult it is to crack these complicated and sophisticated computer codes even enough to find where banking information is kept, so it could be "scrambled"? These codes are changed all the time.

Mal

What do you think about the accomplishment of the development and proof of the Pythagorean Theorem? Are math and sciences philosophies?

Mal

"For the students in general Pythagoras established rules that almost turned the school into a monastery. The members bound themselves by a vow of loyalty, both to the Master and to one another. Ancient tradition is unanimous that they practiced a communistic sharing of goods while they lived in the Pythagorean community.
"They were not to eat flesh, or eggs, or beans. Wine was not forbidden, but water was recommended -- a dangerous prescription in lower Italy today. Possibly the prohibition of flesh food was a religious taboo bound up with the belief in the transmigraton of souls. Men must beware of eating their ancestors.
"Probably there were dispensations, now and then, from the letter of these rules. English historians in particular find it incredible that the wrestler Milo, who was a Pythagorean, had become the strongest man in Greece without the help of beef -- though the calf that became a bull in his arms managed well enough on grass. The members were forbidden to kill any animal that does not injure man, or to destroy a cultivated tree. They were to dress simply and behave modestly, 'never yielding to laughter, and yet not looking stern.'
"They were not to swear by the gods, for 'every man ought so to live as to be worthy of belief without an oath.' They were not to offer victims in sacrifice, but they might worship at altars that were unstained with blood.
"At the close of each day they were to ask themselves what wrongs they had committed, what duties they had neglectd, and what good they had done."
A communist society? A society dear to the heart of environmentalists? A society equivalent to one found in a convent? A group similar to one in a 12-step program?
Robby

Funny you should ask, MAL, as I have mused upon that myself. Goodness knows the maths started as philosophy, as did all the sciences. Then we had to invent more names for things in order to be more specific. Now! Well, now the maths can be so hotly debated that one could very well lump them with philosophy once again! Hawking says every bit of matter in each galaxy will be "eaten up" (there are better words, but ---) by the black holes. Then they will have to regurgitate (again, there are better words) and the whole process of galaxies forming will start all over again. But. But what about the dark matter, which takes up most of time/space? What about anti-matter? Will anti-matter dark holes gobble up or negate positive dark holes? Or vice versa? Will the galaxies form and reform in this manner, or will the universe become one black hole and THEN start over with another Big Bang? If the latter is the case, if the math is just a tee ninesy bit off, will the universe born out of that Bang be totally different from the one our galaxy inhabits? If the former is the case, is this going on now; i.e., are black holes reaching even now a tipping point where they stop gobbling and start giving birth. (I think the former is the case, and black holes are giving birth to new galaxies in our present universe.) But. Are there wormholes to other universes? Or just worm holes between warps in the time/space of our universe? If there are ways to get to or from other universes, what sort of matter or energy might do this? Would this matter or energy be too foreign to allow the invaded universe to stay in whatever condition is stable for it? If all the universes were to become unstable, would they all collapse like a set up of dominoes? How much time would that take? Then what happens?

Math? Philosophy? Science Fiction? Fantastical musings? I say we are given the brains to think up the questions, so why not employ the hubris to seek the answers!

I am taking a teensy weensy break. Will the rest of you please answer all MaryPage's question?

Robby

Mary Page in response to post #844, it would be more confusing than it is now as everyone as their own answers in response to math, philosphy, sci-fi, and fantastical musings!

New galaxies are being formed all the time. In new pictures that capture the light emitted from the edges of the universe, 13 billion years ago, three new galaxies that were forming were discovered. That was in today's paper. The universe evolved. Religion evolved. Philosophy evolved. Even the attitude towards women's equality evolved (or didn't evolve depending where you live). I think there are other universes outside our universe. I can't imagine it but it makes sense to me.

People have imposed a set of rules to explain the physical universe but there is lots of unexplainable chaos out there too.

Marypage there is a new question for you to start pondering regading the discovery of a type of matter occupping a different diminsion than any of the general 3 we are use to: it is heavier and tinier than in our diminsion, and invisible to us yet it effects us..new article in Discovery Magazine that is very heavy but interesting. To think we are surrounded by a whole other universe in a different dimension and it sounds like Science Fiction, but they can postulate it from its effects on our matter. I do hope it is a civilized universe....fr

Trevor: I must say that I don't understand this East-West thing or this North-South thing either. It is so difficult to generalize in a meaningful way.

Blacks and whites have been slaves since the Sumerians wrestled with their neighbors. Economic activity is often characterized as involving an exploiter and some exploited but it is really just business activity- just buyers and sellers doing their usual thing.

Yes, the western nations have dominated international business for the last two hundred years but before that China, Japan, and India were happily isolated from the west doing their own thing. Yes, I think the Eastern nations are getting stronger militarily and economically. At the same time, I see the eastern nations gradually recognizing the same threats the western nations see and they are joining with us to quell those threats.

We speak of mathematics as the "science of number", but number is neither a physical nor a natural phenomenon and therefore not a science. Mathematics is simply a tool, a device for measuring physical and natural phenomena. Pure mathematics is concerned with understanding and testing the limits of the number systems. Philosophy is the pursuit of wisdom, and the study of realities and general principles. Mathematics can aid in the study of realities by measuring reality and expressing its dimensions but it is not a philosophy. General principles can be expressed in mathematical terms and mathematics can be used to test the universality of the principles. Any comments Tejas?

I wonder if the Pythagoreans could reasonably be decribed as a mystery cult. One speaks of being "initiated" as a Pythagorean . Philo was said to be a Pythagorean initiate. There were so many mystery cults in Magna Grecia the pythagoreans could easily have been so described.

MALRYNYou are 100% on the mark when you say #835 "I maintain that there is no way anyone can tell when a civilization will fall." That is true. All we do know, is each will fall.

History teaches us only that each civilization will flourish and then decay, later perhaps to reinvent itself, like the Romans did in the the Renaissance, and Chinese will most likely do this century. Others, such as the great Greecian one, just vanish under the destructive effects of enslavement and servitude.

To me, one of the interesting things is that the centre of civilization has for 3000 years moved steadily westward. Many think that today it is in Hollywood, tomorrow....? LOL= Trevor

Trevor says:--"To me, one of the interesting things is that the centre of civilization has for 3000 years moved steadily westward."
Especially interesting, when one considers that the world is round.

Robby

"Pythagoras' mode of life won for him such respect and authority among his pupils that no one grumbled at his pedagogical dictatorship, and autos epha -- ipse dixit -- 'he himself has said it' -- became their formula for a final decision in almost any field of conduct of theory.
"We are told, with touching reverence, that the Master never drank wine by day, and lived for the most part on bread and honey, with vegetables as dessert. His robe was always white and spotless. He was never known to eat too much, or to make love. He never indulged in laughter, or jests, or stories. He never chastised any one, not even a slave.
"Timon of Athens thought him 'a juggler of solemn speech, engaged in fishing for men,' but among his most devoted followers were his wife Theano and his daughter Damo, who had facilities for comparing his philosophy with his life. To Damo, says Diogenes Laertius, 'he entrusted his Commentaries, and charged her to divulge them to no person out of the house. And she, though she might have sold his discourses for much money, would not abandon them, for she thought obedience to her father's injunctions more valuable than gold, and that, too, though she was a woman.'"
He was never known to make love although he had a wife Theano and a daughter Damo. Have I missed something?
Robby

Only in the very privacy of home, then not under public eye?

Robby, you are so funny this morning.

Trevor, I understand what you are saying that advanced civilization is moving Westward and reached a summit in North America. But isn't that saying that no civilization in the Far East? India, China, Japan ever came up to our standards?

It seems that in the West, we are under the impression that because we have advanced more that previous civilizations in sciences and technology and in defense, we have the most advanced civilization, but the East would consider the West barbaric compared to them. It depends what criteria is used to define the word civilization.

Hollywood indeed. I have not measured which proportion of news time is used for crime and entertainment, but it seems to occupy a large portion of news time, I guess that it is what the people want.

Eloïse

"The new pupil in the Pythagorean society was expected to preserve for five years the 'Pythagorean silence' -- i.e. presumably, to accept instruction without questions or argument -- before being accounted a full member, or being permitted to 'see' (study under?) Pythagoras. The scholars were accordingly divided into exoterici, or outer students, and esoterici, or innter members, who were entitled to the secret wisdom of the Master himself.
"Four subjects composed the curriculum -- geometry, arithmetic, astronomy, and music. Mathematics came first, not as the practical science that the Egyptians had made it, but as an abstract theory of quantities, and an ideal logical training in which thinking would be compelled to order and clarity by the test of rigorous deduction and visible proof. The Pythagoreans appear to have been the first to use the word mathematiks with the meaning of mathematics. Before them it had been applied to the learning (mathema) of anything.
"Geometry now definitely received the form of axiom, theorem, and demonstration. Each step in the sequence of propositions raised the student to a new platform, as the Pythagoreans put it, from which he might view more widely the secret structure of the world.
"Pythagoras himself, according to Greek tradition, discovered many theorems -- above all, that the sum of the angles within any triangle equals two right angles, and the square of the hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle equals the sum of the square of the other two sides.
"Apollodorus tells us that when the Master discovered this theorem he sacrificed a hecatomb -- a hundred animsls -- in thanksgiving, but this would have been scandalously un-Pythagorean."
In other words, as I see it, he forced his students to think. Makes me pause and consider our educational systems these days.
Robby

We have witnessed ancient people trying to find the truth (answers to mysteries) through omens first, then religion and philosophy. Now we see people seeking and finding answers through mathematics and science. The Pythagorean Club demanded discipline (five years of silence). Part of academic discipline is being able to accept instruction and examining what you're taught so you can make your own determination and hypotheses later.

What's wrong with the educational system of today? Of course, I can only assess it, really, through my grandson here. He's received a marvelous education with exposure to every facet of languages, mathematics, science and the arts. He's received enough credit in the college courses he's been taking in public high school that he won't have to take those courses when he matriculates at a university next Fall. I wish I'd had that advantage.

Mal

MAL, your grandson is one of a growing minority. IMHO the schools in this entire U.S. are mostly great, and any child who is encouraged at home to read books, do homework and restrict the tv is going to get a good education, provided, of course, they also receive good nutrition and sufficient sleep. You have to add in some IQ to guarantee admission to higher education, true. People keep jumping up and down and shouting about the schools, yet they do not look to the homes. The professionals are yearning to teach, but the majority of their pupils are unreceptive, and just as yearning to get out of the building and back in front of a tv or computerized game. Your grandson can thank his school system and teachers, yes; but most of all his immediate family and the structure he is given within the home. (plus his genes, which I happen to know are p.d.g.) (which stands for pretty ahem good)

NOTES ON THE GOLDEN VERSES OF PYTHAGORAS FROM THE COMMENTARIES OF HIEROCLES

There's alot of down-to-earth stuff there to contemplate, Mal. Makes us think of our own personal styles of living.

Robby

I just printed out Mal's link in Post 839, named Greek Philosophy, sat down in an easy chair and read it leisurely. It is terrific!! I heartily recommend that you folks get around to reading it!! It is not in detail as the works of the Durants are but in simple easily understood language (even with some humor) give the names of the various Ancient Greeks in chronological order, tells their philosophies, and describes the philosophies.
I found it to be an excellent supplement to what we are reading. Thanks for giving it to us, Mal.

Robby

Thank you, Robby, for giving me this opportunity to learn.

Mal

Pythagoras not only gave us the theorem that bares his name, but he was the first to realise that one of the theorem's consequences was that there are such things as irrational numbers. In this he was in advance of the Chinese, who had independently found Pythagoras' theorem much earlier.

He was so shocked at finding a length that could not be measured, he feared the ridicule of his fellows, and sought to suppress the discovery. Shows how much we yearn for the acclimation of others, but dread their scorn.

Many mathematicians have experienced these feelings of social unease that follows from their discoveries. Newton, Cantor,Galois, the non-Euclidean geometers... Trevor

Trevor:--Please explain to this math-illiterate person -- what is an "irrational number?"

Robby

Trevor:--In my young days I went out with a real hot number and she wasn't very reasonable -- but I guess that is not what you mean.

Robby

Cantor was a relative of my family. I saw a picture of him once and the resemblance to my grandfather was unmistakable. I did not inherit any mathematical ability. When I go out with friends to a restaurant, I just announce that I don't know what I owe or what to tip and to tell me.

"From geometry, inverting the modern order, Pythagoras passed to arithmetic -- not as a practical art of reckoning, but as the abstract theory of numbers. Perhaps it was the study of proportion that led Pythagoras to reduce music to number. One day, as he passed a blacksmith's shop, his ear was attracted by the apparently regular musical intervals of the sounds that came from the anvil. Finding that the hammers were of different weights, he concluded that tones depend upon numerical ratios.
"In one of the few experiments which we hear of in classical science, he took two strings of equal thickness and equal tension, and discovered that if one was twice as long as the other they sounded an octave when he pluck them. If one was half again the length of the other they gave a fifth (do, sol). If one was a third longer than the other they gave a fourth (do, fa). In this way every musical interval could be mathematically calculated and expressed.
"Since all bodies moving in space produce sounds, whose pitch depends upon the size and speed of the body, then each planet in its orbit about the earth (argued Pythagoras) makes a sound proportioned to its rapidity of translation, which in turn rises with its distance from the earth.
"These diverse notes constitute a harmony or 'music of the spheres,' which we never hear because we hear it all the time."
Robby

Learn about this new CATALOG OF THE WORLD which will help to answer What Are Our Origins and Where are We Now?

Robby

According to THIS ARTICLE, the Pythagoran theorum was developed 1,500 years before Pythagoras was born. Check out this and other comments regarding the so-called accomplishments of the Ancient Greeks.

Robby

ROBBY A rational number is a number that when written down in decimal notation, always comes to a finish, that is, to a point where they trail off in a repetitive and unending string of zeros or other numbers. Such as 1/2 which expanded in decimals is the familiar 0.5,,,,,,,, or 1/3 = 0.3333,,,,,,( the commas represent an unending and repetitive sequence of zeros, or threes etc., and therefore are never written down.)

Irrational numbers, expressed as decimals, never reach a point where they trail off in an unending and repetitive sequences of zeros, etc. They do go on endlessly, and include repeated sequences of numbers, but these sequences are never of more than finite length. Examples are the decimal forms of Pi 3.14159,,,,, e=2.71828,,,,, or Pythagoras' square root of 2.

I prefer the irrational numbers, for though like ladies they chatter on endlessly, they never repeat, but always have something new and important to say. Rather like the ladies here present, don't you think?== Trevor

Thanks, Trevor. As to the first part of your posting, I am thinking it through. As to your last paragraph, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole.

Robby

The quote below is from an article written by a professor of mathematics and psychology at a university in Manila. I have the URL if you want to read this entire, short article.
"As for the Pythagorean theorem, which states that the square of the hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides, it is widely believed that Pythagoras picked this up when he was in Babylonia. However, the Pythagoreans are credited for the first formal proof of this theorem.

"So is there any truth to the rumors that the Brotherhood was a deadly sect? I have only come upon one instance to bolster that belief. When the Pythagoreans discovered the existence of irrational numbers (no fraction composed of integers could express these ratios exactly), the notion proved disturbing to the Brotherhood, because it ran counter to their view that the universe was expressible in whole numbers. It was said that when one of their members, Hippasus, insisted that they investigate this (other sources say that Hippasus talked—yes, blabbed about this), the members were so angry that they had him expelled. Some sources say he drowned under suspicious circumstances, but we can never be sure."

Just what is a sect or cult? Click HERE to read some views, always keeping in mind as we read from links, we should take the sources into consideration.

Robby

Robby, you and Malryn must spend a lot of time at the computer exploring all these websites. If I sit half an hour at the computer, my back aches.

Bill Gates, are you listening? Stop messing around with all those silly computer games, and invent something useful! What we need is a computer with a reclining chair attached to it so we don't strain our backs reading this screen.

Below is a link to a very good illustrated page about Pythagoras, Plato and Euclid in relation to philosophy, mathematics and science.
PHILOSOPHY, MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCE

"we emerge with a tremendous respect for cultures that have had the courage to confront their own belief systems by the logical, systematic and rigorous collection of factual evidence, which is why science has always been considered such a threatening enterprise by defenders of hierarchies and orthodoxies."

This quote is from the last article ROBBY pointed us to in The New York Times. It leads me yet again to view human progress as lacking a direct, chronological series of steps forward because ..............

Because we keep putting the brakes on ourselves, and then very carefully putting our heads in the sand!

Shasta, I wouldn't expect you to put in the amount of time at this that some of us do, but it is your participation and that of others which makes this forum a success. Experience over this past year has shown that people in The Story of Civilization gain the most by ckecking in at least once a day -- perhaps more if the topic is that much of interest.
My method is to check out something which means being at the computer for 10 minutes, going on to another activity in my house, checking back later for 10 minutes, etc.

Robby

I spend most of my awake hours at the computer. I take occasional breaks and have a two or two and a half hour nap every afternoon. Try sitting in a rocking chair, so that you'll be changing your position and moving. Now for something I found about women in the time of Pythagoras.
"Themistoclea"

"Ancient sources point to women as active participants, playing a central role in the development of early Pythagorean philosophy. Pythagoras produced a school of philosophy that was religious and mystical and the Pythagoreans made important contributions to mathematics, musical theory, and astronomy. What is not commonly known however is that there exists a record that Pythagoras acquired the greater part of his ethical doctrines from Themistoclea, the Priestess of Delphi, and that what he taught he had heard from her.

"Theano of Crotona"

"Theano of Crotona, the wife of Pythagoras, was a member (along with her three daughters) of the original Pythagorean cult. There is a document attributed to Theano in which she discusses metaphysics, and there are records of her many written works in which she expresses her views on marriage, sex, women, and ethics. Upon the death of Pythagoras, Theano, alongside her two sons, became the director of the Pythagorean school."

Should we reread those bits about how Pithy (page 163)"was never known to .........make love" ??

Perhaps they were Theano's children, but not her husband's. Apparently she had at least 3 daughters and 2 sons. Had he none?

Here's another map of Ancient Greece. Crotona is on the foot of Italy on the Ionian Sea.

MAP CROTONA

Robby, my method is to search for something on the computer, fail in my search, get mad and turn off the computer, and go weed the garden. But I appreciate all the interesting links that you all provide for me to read, since I am too lazy to search for anything myself.

Math logic has eluded me. When my very knowledgeable high school geomtry teacher spoke of Plato, Aristotle and others in relation to their philosphy regarding she would put me to sleep! Unfortunately, she a monotone voice. Now we are speaking of them regarding this logical philosphy of numbers. Question is were did the numbers come from?

Is the story of Pythagoras and his theorem putting participants to sleep here?

Robby

Maybe Pythagorus was like Ghandi who stopped having physical relations with his wife once his mission started. I wonder if Pythagorus' wife was smarter than he. I know some men who are quite proud that their wives are smarter than they are. But they are smart too.

When we discuss mathematics, we mustn't forget that the Arabs invented (developed?)algebra. As well, when Pythagorus figured out the mathematics to make different musical tones, that was for western music. Music from India has a lot more tones in it.

To answer Robby's question: Frankly, I find discussion of Pythagoras and what he did fascinating. It shows an evolution in thinking, especially abstract thinking. It's progress!

Mal

When one of the sentences the Durant's wrote said Pythagoras did not make love perhaps they were not referring to having sex with his wife at all. Making love to many different people of all ages and genders was a common act among the Greeks of that period from what I have read. Connubial relations in order to perpetuate the family was clearly not making love in the general sense. I think of those people in history as being of their time and culture not ours, and very different in some ways especially marriage and family relationships.Even a few hundred years ago marriage was not necessarily a love union as it is thought of in US today. Romantic love was outside and in addition to connubial sex which was for the purpose of protecting property and having children. fpr

Every once in a while Mary Page comes up with a very poignant comment about our current age and customs. Sometimes she sneaks by without comment but this time I must nail her. What did she say this time? She said" We appear to be lacking human progress in a direct, chronological series of forward steps because we keep putting the brakes on ourselves and then carefully putting our heads in the sand." You are right on the money, Mary Page.

Let me sight two examples although many are possible. Commercial applications of nuclear power was tried by several Utility companies. When they made mistakes they failed to learn from them and to try again. The Atomic Energy Commission cut them off. Three Mile Island should have been a learning experience. So should Chernobyl have been a learning experience.

The second example concerns cloning and stem cell analysis. We cut both off by government fiat. Others will clone and others will develop and use stem cells but they will not be US citizens. The most important research facility in the world has been curbed while our leaders bury their heads in the sand.

Where would the world be today if the philosopher and mathematician from Crotona had not been allowed to function, to talk about the music of the spheres, to develop his number cult and to give us his precious theorem?

Durant tells us the mysticism in Pythagorus, learned in Egypt and the Near East led him to think the soul is divided into three parts: feeling, intuition, and reason. Feeling he says, is centered in the heart, intuition and reason in the brain. Reason is immortal. After death the soul undergoes a period of purgation in hades; then it returns to earth and enters a new body in a chain of transmigration that can be ended only by a completely virtuous life.

The Indian religions, Hindu and Brahmanism, were practicing the same idea, perhaps, even simultaneously. The Christians, seven or eight centuries later, picked up parts of this concept for use in their religion. If we have learned anything in this study of civilization it is that nothing is completely discarded. Everything evolves over time. Not only does Darwin seem right about plants and animals but the theory also applies to social custom and practice.

Robby, Pythagoras is keeping me awake at nights! This discussion is never boring, it is exhilarating! I have not been so mentally awake for a long time. Bubble

"According to the common tradition of antiquity the school of Pythagoras was a communistic aristocracy -- men and women pooling their goods, educated together, trained to virtue and high thinnking by mathematics, music, and philosophy and offering themselves as the guardian rulers of the state.
"It was Pythagoras' effort to make his society the actual government of his city that brought ruin upon himself and his followers. The initiates entered so actively into politics, and took so decidedly the aristocratic side, that the democratic or popular party of Crotona, in an ecstasy of rage, burned down the house in which the Pythagoreans were gathered, killed several of them, and drove the rest out of the city. Pythagoras himself, in one account, was captured and slain when, in his flight, he refused to tread upon a field of beans. Another story lets him escape to Metapontum, where he abstained from food for forty days and -- perhaps feeling that eighty years were enough -- starved himself to death.
"His society survived for three centuries in scattered groups throughout Greece, producing scientists like Philolaus of Thebes and statesmen like Archytas, dictator of Taras and friend of Plato. Wordsworth, in his most famous ode, was an unconscious Pythagorean.
"Plato himself was entralled by the vague figure of Pythagoras. At every turn he takes from him -- in his scorn of democracy -- his yearning for a communistic aristocracy of philosopher-rulers -- his conception of virtue as harmony -- his theories of the nature and destiny of the soul -- his love of geometry -- and his addiction to the mysticism of number.
"All in all, Pythagoras was the founder, so far as we know them, of both science and philosophy in Europe -- an achievement sufficient for any man."
Would it be over-simplifying to say that Pythagoras was a proponent of the "liberal arts" method of teaching? Giving students a broad basis of learning before allowing them to move on to specialized subjects?
I think at this point of engineers, physicians, lawyers and others of our day who are highly skilled in their field but who are inept when it comes to their knowledge of history, language, the arts, religious concepts, geography, philosophy, and physical science and can not read with attention and understanding or write legibly or creatively.

Robby

"Times are upset, we see, and nations rise
To strength and greatness, others fail and fall.
Troy once was great in wealth and men and gave
For ten long years her lifeblood; humbled now
She shows her ancient ruins, for her riches
Only the broken tombs of ancestors."

- - Ovid laying out the world view of Pythagoras

Feeling a little irritated, cross and crochety this a.m. because I spent hours yesterday afternoon with Barron's Educational Series' "Geometry The Easy Way" second Edition by Lawrence S. Leff. Well, I remembered a little stuff, learned more stuff, satisfied myself very minutely, and on the whole experienced frustration big time. Then I stayed up until one thirty this a.m. catching up on what I missed doing, which mainly consisted of reading 2 Sunday papers. Bah humbug!

MaryPage:--Perhaps you are helping to answer Voltaire's question in the Heading.

Robby

Bubble - except for P. keeping me awake at night I totally agree with you.

Human beings are human beings. Some things will never change and our brain and heart is wired a certain way, who/what is going to produce a change? Should everybody adhere to the same view? Is that view necessarily the best for mankind? Are scientific psilosophical inroads necessarily good and who decides what is good and what is bad?

Eloïse

Below is a map of Calabria. Crotona is at the heel. Reggio is near the toe. Parmigiano Reggiano. Best parmigiano there is!

CALABRIA

Scroll down on the page you access through this link to see a map of Cumae. You'll also see the route Aeneas took.

CUMAE

Again, Durant gives us a brief geography lesson so we can be aware of the area in which those Ancients lived.

"Twenty miles north of Elea lay the city of Poseidonia -- the Roman Paestum -- founded by colonists from Sybaris as the main Italian terminus of Milesian trade. Today one reaches it by a pleasant ride from Naples through Salerno. Suddenly, by the roadside, amid a deserted field, three temples appear, majestic even in their desolation. For the river, by blocking its own mouth here with centuries of silt, has long since turned this once healthy valley into a swamp. Even the reckless race that tills the slopes of Vesuvius has fled in despair from these malarial plains.

Fragments of the ancient walls remain. Better preserved, as if by solitude, are the shrines that the Greeks raised, in modest limestone but almost perfect form, to the gods of the corn and the sea. The oldest of the buildings, lately called the 'Basilica,' was more likely a temple to Poseidon. Men who owed their living to the fruit and commerce of the Mediterranean dedicated it to him toward the middle of this amazing sixth century B.C. which created great art, literature, and philosophy from Italy to Snantung. The inner as well as the outer colonnades remain, and attest the columnar passion of the Greeks."

Robby

Scroll down to see a temple of Hera and a temple of Neptune in Poseidonia on this Italian page.

POSEIDONIA

The link below is a long download, but the pictures of the temples and the Basilica in Poseidonia are worth the wait.

PAESTUM

Excellent photos, Mal! I wonder how many visitors to Italy view what they think are Roman ruins without realizing that they are Greek and built long before Rome became an empire.

Robby

"Pythagoras was slain because he refused to trample on a field of beans." The Greeks seemed to think there was something obscene about beans. This has always puzzled me. Does anyone understand why they objected so strongly to beans?

Shasta:--Could it be that he didn't want to hurt the environment? That it could have been any other crop?

Robby

Yes, I never realized those were Greek ruins when we drove from Napoli to the North on the coastal road. I suppose it is because of Pompeii. Thanks for all those links.

And Boy, did I shop! Bought a bunch of books at Barnes & Noble (the store near me, not on line through SeniorNet), and some of them will assist me with this study we are doing. John Haywood's Historical Atlas of the Classical World is wonderful! And it is actually published by Barnes & Noble and was on sale in their BARGAIN BOOKS section!

Also brought home Mapping Human History -- Discovering the Past Through Our Genes by Steve Olson. This shows the movements of the different family groupings through over 100,000 years, and our basic unity as one race, the race of mankind. The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy addresses the history of the Pagan god whose story was rewritten as the gospel of Jesus of Nazareth. Lost Discoveries by Dick Teresi is a history of the ancient roots of modern science, from the Babylonians to the Maya. Finally, that great Pulitzer Prize winning Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. What is that one about? Well, his first line is: "This Book attempts to provide a short history of everybody for the last 13,000 years." That'll do!

So I am very excited, very up, and expect to be extremely tired when I get up to go to work tomorrow morning. Pip! Pip!

"The following generation built a smaller temple, also Dorically simple and strong. We call it the 'temple of Ceres,' but we do not know what god sniffed the savor of its offerings. A yet later generation, just before or after the Persian War, erected the greatest and best-proportioned of the three temples, probably also to Poseidon -- fittingly enough, since from its porticoes one gazes into the inviting face of the treacherous sea. Again almost everything is columns -- a powerful and complete Doric peristyle without, and, within, a two-storied colonnade that once upheld a roof.
"Here is one of the most impressve sights in Italy. It seems incredible that this temple, better preserved than anything built by the Romans, was the work of Greeks almost five centuries before Christ.
"We can imagine something of the beauty and vitality of a community that had both the resources and the taste to raise such centers for its religious life. Then we can conjure up less inadequately the splendor of richer and vaster cities like Miletus, Samos, Ephesus, Crotona, Sybaris, and Syracuse."

Robby

You want to discuss "democracy?" Chew on THIS for a while!!

Robby

I somehow knew that cats were anarchists all along. Faith

The temples that Mal posted, those of the Basilica, Neptune and Ceres, exhibit very clearly, some of the architectural characteristics I mentioned earlier.

If you look at the top of any two columns you will find in the frieze, three triglyphs-one over each column and one in between columns. The triglyphs are uniformly decorated. They face and abut cross beams that support the cornice and the roof. Between each triglyph is a metope. The metopes are often decorated. They separate the cross beams that support the roof. They are often simply teracotta facing. Without metapes and triglyphs the beam ends of wooden support members would be visible from the outside of the temple and it would not have the finished stone look we see in a Doric temple.

At the top of each Doric column is an abacus on which the stones of the architrave rest. Each architrave stone spans two columns. It is on the architrave stones that the cross beams supporting the roof rest.There is one beam over each column and one between columns. Each beam end is faced with a decorative triglyph and separated from the neighboring beam by a metope.

The columns , as one can see, are fluted and there are no bases. Each column is constructed from a series of drums piled one on top of the other. The central drums tend to be wider than the upper and lower drums to create a condition known as entasis. Entasis is used to create an illusion of a straight column at a distance.

I may be offering more than you want to know but it is always nice to understand what one is looking at in a temple even if one is only passing on the road to Rome. I suggest you print this out and then call up Mal's posting the temples. You can then find these elements on the actual temples.

Thanks Justin: having the basics explained makes the temples visits that much richer and enjoyable.

In Ceasarea I saw those column drums lying on the ground, separated . Then it is obvious they are not the same diameter all through. When you see next to oneanother two parts who should not be directly one top of the other, you might think they are from two completely different sized columns. Bubble

Thank you, Justin, for that explanation. Mal, if you can, would you please post that link again that sends us to the illustration of the three types of columns? I will find it easier to understand Justin's explanation if I have the illustration in front of me.

Robby

"Near the beginning of the sixth century the Phocaeans of Ionia landed on the southern shore of France, founded Massalia (Marseilles), and carried Greek products up the Rhone and its branches as far as Arles and Nimes. They made friends and wives of the natives, introduced the olive and the vine as gifts to France, and so familiarized southern Gaul with Greek civilization that Rome found it easy to spread its kindred culture there in Caesar's time.
"Ranging along the coast to the east, the Phocaeans established Antipolis (Antibes), Nicaea (Nice), and Monoecus (Monaco).
Westward they ventured into Spain and built the towns of Rhodae (Rosas), Emporium (Ampurias), Hemeroscopium, and Maenaca (near Malaga).
"The Greeks in Spain flourished for a while by exploiting the silver mines of Tartessus. In 535 the Carthaginians and Etruscans combined their forces to destroy the Phocaean fleet, and from that time Greek power in the western Mediterranean waned."
Lots of familiar names here giving us more knowledge of the ancient civilization which formed the cities we know today. If Mal or I have time, we will put up a map to help us see this migration.

Robby

Click HERE to see an example of a 2,500 year-old Greek play being used today to give a message.

Robby

I never dreamed when I was there that Nice, Antibes, Monaco were of Greek origin. They are all in south of France. Beautiful region too. Bubble

Here is a LINK to Nice, France -- a city which has been inhabitated for almost a half million years (according to the link). Hard to believe!

Robby

Here is another link to ANTIBES -- a community which goes back 3,000 years. Makes a bit more sense than 300,000 but is still a long way back!

Robby

The CELTS(?) in Massalia (Marseilles) 500 B.C.? And the Ancient Greeks and Celts on friendly terms? Hm-m-m -- I thought the Celts were in what is now known as the British Isles and in what is now known as Brittany, France.

Did all those people travel much more than ordinarily thought?

Robby

"To Sicily nature had given what she had withheld from continental Greece -- an apparently inexhaustible soil fertilized by rain and lava, and producing so much wheat and corn that Sicily was thought to be, if not the birthplace, at least a favorite haunt of Demeter herself.
"Here were orchards, vineyards, olive groves, heavy with fruit. Honey as succulent as Hymettus', and flowers blooming their turn from the beginning to the end of the year. Grassy plains pastured sheep and cattle, endless timber grew in the hills, and the fish in the surrounding waters reproduced faster than Sicily could eat them."
Robby

I cannot adequately describe the feeling of walking out of the plane into the smell, the sight and sounds of the Côte d'Azur. It defies adequate definition. No wonder famous artists from any country during centuries retire there and never come out again.

The climate is soft and pleasant enough that even in the winter the weather is almost always pleasant. The view has that sharpness that can you can only see in dry climates, hardly any moisture clouds the air. The sea is a turquoise/topaz color typical of the shores of the Medeterranean sea.

Buildings reflect the passing of civilizations while all the urbanists agree should be kept alive even in new buildings. I have seen large buildings that looked like if they were built in antiquity, yet they were still under construction. In Monaco, the richness of the architecture overwhelms the senses until you say, enough. I can't stand it any more, too much is too much. The soft peach and beige colors of houses as you drive in small towns reflect the climate and local vegetation never either harsh or agressive to the eye.

The cultural experience is unique and famous artists who lived there left museums full of their work for people to admire, mostly for free in all the towns where they lived.

In Menton, near the Italian border, high snow capped alpine peaks drop straight down in the sea where people are swimming in January some warm years. Visiting le vieux Nice and le vieux Menton, le vieux Cannes is an experience in itself and you would think you were in ancient times. I walked through an arched door that Catherine de Médicis had walked through.

Ordinary local people are not as fond of the night life we think. The locals are quiet, reserved people who showed me a lot of respect and consideration. I never tire of La Côte d'Azur.

Eloïse

Click for PHOTOS of Cote D'Azur.

Robby

If you haven't seen enough, here are SCORES MORE OF PHOTOS of the area where the Ancient Greeks landed. Click onto each photo to enlarge it.

Robby

With reference to the article about animal democracy, this morning I saw huge flocks of pigeons sitting on telephone wires. Each bird sat the same distance from the next one, and each one had his head turned in the same direction. I slowed down to see if there was an individualist looking in the other direction, but the car behind me blasted his horn for me to move on. Now, why were they all looking in the same direction?

Revamping old plays always makes me uncomfortable. I don't like to see Shakespeare in modern dress. I always feel that an artist should be able to make his own statement in his own voice. To underlay your creativity with somebody else's creativity gives weight to what you are saying, but it seems a little like cheating to me.

Eloise, are the sky and the water really as blue as those photos? Where I live, all water is brown. How wonderful it must be to live where the water is so blue!

I had the same reaction you did about the Celts, ROBBY. I had it in my head they were in what is now England, then got squeezed by the Saxons and went up into Scotland, over into Wales, and remained in Cornwall. Then the Scots in Ireland invaded Scotland? And the Celts (Britons?) went to Brittany? Oh, I forget everything I thought I knew!

Anyway, my new Historical Atlas of the Classical World shows Celts in Europe in 323 B.C., in all the British Isles and a tiny bit in France in 200 B.C., in Great Britain only in 1 B.C., in Scotland and Ireland only in 400 A.D., and in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany in 600 A.D.

My TIMES ATLAS OF WORLD HISTORY shows the Celts primary in all of Europe in the 2nd and 1st century B.C., and headed South, West and North, but not East or Southeast. It shows them in Eastern Europe in 750-550 B.C. And yes, finally, it does show the Celts deep into Europe, with their heartland being on the Rhine and Upper Danube at first, and then spreading to France and Czechoslovakia by the 6th century B.C. By the 3rd century B.C. they replaced the Scythians in the Middle Danube and were raiding widely. By 276 B.C. they were plundering and partially settling Greece and Turkey! The Celts, Slavs, Italic-speakers and Illyrians belonged to the "Urnfield" culture, a group of related tribes with common culture and burial practices. Ashes in urns? Bones in urns? Buried in fields? Not enough information here, and I'm wildly guessing. There was a magnificent burial of a Celtic princess at Vix near Chatillon-sur-Seine with finery from Italy and Greece. The Celts reached Delphi approximately 290 B.C. The "foolish Galatians" in Anatolia of whom St. Paul wrote, were CELTS!

I just grow more confused.

HERE, THERE & EVERYWHERE!

So where did the Celts originate? Here is one POSSIBILITY.

Robby

"A neolithic culture had flourished in Sicily in the third millennium before Christ, a bronze culture in the second. Even in Minoan days trade had bound the island with Crete and Greece. Toward the end of the second millennium three waves of immigration broke upon Sicilian shores -- the Sicans came from Spain -- the Elymi from Asia Minor -- the Sicels from Italy.
"About 800 the Phoenicians established themselves at Motya and Panormus (Palermo) in the west. From 735 on the Greeks poured in, and in quick succession founded Naxos, Syracuse, Leontini, Messana (Messina), Catana, Gela, Himera, Selinus, and Acragas.
"In all these cases the natives were driven from the coast by force of arms. Most of them retired to till the mountainous interior. Some became slaves to the invaders. So many others intermarried with the conquerors that Greek blood, character, and morals in Sicily took on a perceptible native tint of passion and sensuality.
"The Hellenes never quite conquered the island. The Phoenicians and Carthaginians remained predominant on the coast.
"After thirteen centuries of domination by Rome, that contest would be resumed, in the Middle Ages, between Norman and Saracen."
Migrate and mingle. Migrate and mingle. Migrate and mingle. Mankind progresses.
Robby

"The city of Catana was distinguished for its laws -- the Lipari Islands for their communism -- Himera for its poet, Segesta -- Selinusk and Acragas for their temples -- Syracuse for its power and wealth.
"The laws that Charondas gave to Catana, a full generation before Solon, became a model for many cities in Sicily and Italy. They served to create public order and sexual morality in communities unprotected by ancient mores and sacred precedents. A man night divorce his wife, or a wife her husband, but then he or she must not marry anyone younger than the divorced mate.
"Charondas, according to a typically Greek tale, forbade the citizens to enter the assembly while armed. One day, however, he himself came to the public meeting forgetfully wearing his sword. When a voter reproached him for breaking his own law, he answered: 'I will rather confirm it,' and slew himself."

Robby

Oh I loved that site on Nice and the neighboring towns. I remembered the Musee de Picasso and Musee Jean Marais with its scuptures and porcelains in Antibes, the Brcante market in Cannes, and especially the flower market in Grasse and its numerous parfume factories. A dear friend, Pola from Cagnes, took me there on a day visit and this article reminded me of the huge jasmine truck beds waiting to be treated and the all pervading scent sickenigly strong. Today would have been her birthday...
A mention too for prehistorical Valvonne with its fine restautants.
To see Provence at least once in life is a must. If you cannot travel, at least through the web.

Strange how a different education slants our thinking? For me Celts were first and above all the inhabitants of Gaul, around Belgium and France. Only later did I "incorporate" the people of British islands as Celts too. The Asterix cartoons of course encouraged that slanting. Bubble

"A man night divorce his wife, or a wife her husband, but then he or she must not marry anyone younger than the divorced mate.

I like to laugh early in the morning. It makes me forget it's below zero outside.

It's not zero where the Greeks landed. As I can see, they didn't go too far north up the Rhone River.

Robby

All that information about the Celts and the other groups that lived in prehistoric Europe was fascinating.

Good site on the Celts, ROBBY, and I have saved it in my Favorites. Thanks! Hey, I wasn't far off at all with my wild guess as to why they were called the Urnfield people! Mayhap my strong Celtic roots already knew in my Reptilian brain? Speaking of which, I'll bet my booty that I come down from those Battle Ax people, as well!

Is this fun, or what!

The link below takes you to information about Syracuse. Click the Syracuse link on the page for more.

ANCIENT SYRACUSE

Here is a LINK showing the movement of the Allied forces during World War II as they invaded Sicily. Do you suppose any of the soldiers noticed the various Ancient Greek ruins? If so, what thoughts do you believe went through their head as they advanced?

Robby

Dear God, if I live through this I promise to be good to everyone and call my mother every Sunday for the rest of my LIFE!

"West of Himera lay Segesta, of which nothing remains but a peristyle of unfinished Doric columns weirdly rising amid surrounding weeds. To find Sicilian architecture at its best we must cross the island southward to the once great cities of Selinus and Acragas.
"During its tragic tenure of life from its establishment in 651 to its destruction by Carthaginians in 409, Selinus raised to the silent gods seven Doric temples, immense in size but of imperfect workmanship, covered with painted plaster and decorated with crude reliefs. The demon of earthquake destroyed these temples at a date unknown, and little survives of them but broken columns and capitals sprawling on the ground.
"Acragas, the Roman Agrigentum, was in the sixth century the largest and richest city in Sicily. We picture it rising from its busy wharves through a noisy market place to the homes on the slope of the hill, and the stately acropolis whose shrines almost lifted their worshipers to the sky. Here, as in most of the Greek colonies, the landowning aristocracy yielded power to a dictatorship representing chiefly the middle class.
"In 570 Phalaris seized the government, and secured immortality by roasting his enemies in a brazen bull. He was particularly pleased by a contrivance that made the agonized cries of his victims sound through a mechanism of pipes like the bellowing of the animal. Nevertheless it was to him and a later dictator, Theron, that the city owed the political order and stability that permitted its economic development.
"The merchants of Acragas, like those of Selinus, Crotona, and Sybaris, became the American millionaires of their time, upon whom the lesser plutocrats of older Greece looked with secret envy and compensatory scorn. The new world, said the old, was interested in size and show, but had no taste or artistry."
Sound familiar?

Robby

Scroll down to thumbnails of the temple at Segesta. Click to enlarge.

TEMPLE AT SELINUS Click image for a much larger view

Scroll down to see a picture of Acragas and much more

TEMPLE RUINS AT HIMERA

The landings at Sicily were interesting. It was called operation Husky. It started for us on July 10, l943. We landed at "Baily's Beach" , a little North of Scoglitti, in very rough seas. The beach area was south of Gela. Initial assignment was to secure Scoglitti. The beaches were crowded and the ships had trouble unloading due to weather. Enemy resistance was not severe but was enough to disrupt the landing. Junkers 88 bombers kept us in and out of cover along the beach. Five days later, on the 14th, the job was done, and the Navy landing parties reboarded ship. There was not much time to think of Greek temples.

What happened to our delete and edit ability? It seems to have disappeared.

Will the genie who runs the edit and delete buttons please put those tags on Post 940, 941 and the current post.

Robby: Help me to edit and delete postings I select.

Justin:--I have notified Marcie. Please be patient until they work it out. Check occasionally. If, in the meantime, there are typos you would ordinarily edit, we'll understand that.

Robby

Justin, I liked your post #940. I can just picture soldiers landing in Sicily not giving a second thought to Greek ruins even if some had good knowledge of ancient history. The immediate concern was to fight a war and NOT get killed. History must have been tucked so far away in your mind. I think that anecdotes like yours gives us here, who didn't experience any of its horrors, a reminder that freedom comes at a high price. So many died and were permanently wounded and it's so easy to forget that it ever happened. The kids today learn about it like in a movie, for them it cannot be real, but it was very real.

The Delete Edit buttons have been combined and you can make changes to your post only within the next half hour after you post it, after that they both disappear. It's the same for all of us.

Eloïse

As we continue to examine the migrations and trading movements of the Ancient Greeks, THIS ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times is of special interest.

Robby

Justin:--I hadn't thought, as Eloise suggested, that you might be waiting more than a half hour to make changes.

Robby

"As far back as the eighth century Corinth had sent colonists, armed with righteousness and superior weapons, to seize the little peninsula, which was then perhaps an island. They built or widened the connection with the mainland of Sicily, and drove most of the Sicels into the interior. They multiplied with all the rapidity of a vigorous people on a resource-full soil. In time their city became the largest in Greece, with a circumference of fourteen miles and a population of half a million souls.
An aristocracy of landholders was overthrown about 495 by a revolt of the unfranchised plebs in alliance with the enslaved Sicels. The new democracy, if we may believe Aristotle, proved incapable of establishing an orderly society, and in 485 Gelon of Gela, by a program of enlightened treachery, set up a dictatorship. Like many of his kind he was as able as he was unscrupulous. Scorning all moral codes and political restraints, he transformed Ortygia into an impregnable fortress for hs government, conquered Naxos, Leontini, and Messana, and taxed all eastern Sicily to make Syracuse the most beautiful of Greek capitals.
"He redeemed himself, and became the idolized Napoleon of Sicily when, as Xerxes' fleet moved upon Athens, the Carthaginians sent an armada only less numerous than the Persian to wrest the island pradise from the Greeks.
"The fate of Sicily was joined with that of Greece when in the same month -- tradition said on the same day -- Gelon faced Hamilcar at Himera, and Themistocles confronted Xerxes at Salamis."
Corinth sent colonists armed not only with superior weapons but "armed with righteousness." Ring a bell?

Robby

The Greeks pushed back the natives in Sicily. Click HERE to find out more about those who were originally in Sicily before the Greeks arrived.

Robby

Photos of MOUNT ETNA, SICILY in eruption.

Robby

Here is some FASCINATING INFORMATION about Mt. Etna.

Robby

Click onto THIS MAP to see exactly where Mt. Etna is located in Sicily.

Robby

Below is a link to a picture of the Kiosk of Trajan built by Ancient Greeks in Egypt.

KIOSK OF TRAJAN

Justin, as Eloise has explained, the Edit button has always only been in effect for 30 minutes after you post a message. The Delete button used to be permanent but is only in effect now for 30 minutes after you post.

In most cases, if you have not edited a post within 30 minutes, it makes sense to just post a follow up message clarifying your original post if it appears to you that clarification is necessary. If there is a post that you believe really should be deleted (even though many may have already read it), and 30 minutes have already passed, you may email me at marcie@seniornet.org to remove the post.

Marcie: In the case of 940,and 941 the edit and delete feature never appeared. It did appear on 942, and 943. I wanted to rewrite 940 immediately after posting but never had a chance to do that.

Thanks, Justin. I'm not sure what might have happened. Let me know if that should happen again. Email me at marcie@seniornet.org. Thanks.

Corinth sent it's people to Sicily with superior weapons and a feeling of righteous superiority. After they chased the Sicils to central Sicily and settled down to breed, the folks at home said things such as one heard in Europe between 1919 and 1940 about the US. "They are an uncultured lot who do things in a loud and rude manner".

Funny how these things seem to repeat. The Israelites moved into Canaan with an attitude of righteous superiority. The British moved into India with that attitude. France, Britain, Russia, Italy, and the US moved into China with that attitude. The US moved in on it's indigenous population with that attitude. I guess the Aussies moved in on their native population with a similar attitude.

The dominant Muslim group in Iraq would move in on the Kurds if the UN let them. They also moved in on their next door neighbor Kuwait until the UN said,"stop". If this process can be curbed by the UN we could be on the way to ending serious international strife.But the UN cannot back away and let things happen. It must be aggressive in policing the world.

You cannot think: I am a bad lot and will move in on other people. You need to feel in the right so as to be able to live with it. That means or be right, or feel superior. You can even "bring culture" with you... It is a bit like the history of Africa.

Don't the "natives" sometimes feel superior to the people moving in on them?

Robby

Culturally I am sure they do, but they have not much chance against technology... also they see advantages in material possessions.

I am sure that the invaders if they win will establish their government no matter if the natives feel superior or not. Isn't that what has always happens?

The French took the land away from the Indians in Canada, then the English invaded and brought their culture, their language, their economy. What didn't serve them too well is that they let the French keep their language and their religion. Besides in the 17th century, they were too few to be able to impose their language and religion successfully because of the climate which brought everything to a standstill a few months every year and the vast expanse of land to govern.

So now, some Francophones here would like to separate, (it started with language) don't ask me why, but I feel it is because its so very difficult to learn and appreciate another culture's language. This problem has plagued our country for so long and the government has remained helpless in solving it.

Countries that have been conquered have pushed natives out of the way forever. That's what was done to Natives in North America.

Eloïse

What other natives did the Ancient Greeks encounter? Durant continues:--

"The Carthaginians had reason to be disturbed for on the north coast of Africa the Greeks were capturing trade. As early as 630 the Dorians of Thera had sent a numerous colony to Cyrene, midway between Carthage and Egypt. There, on the desert's edge, they found good soil, with rain so abundant that the natives spoke of the site as the place where there was a hole in the sky.

"The Greeks used part of the land for pasturage, and exported wool and hides. They grew from the silphium plant a spice tht all Greece was eager to buy. They sold Greek products to Africa, and developed their own handicrafts to such a point that Cyrenaic vases ranked among the best. The city used its wealth intelligently, and adorned itself with great gardens, temples, statuary, and gymnasiums.

"Here the first famous epicurean philosopher, Aristippus, was born, and here, after much wandering, he returned to found the Cyrenaic School."

How sparse was my earlier education about Ancient Greece. I knew about their philosophers but did not know about all this trade. Furthermore, I didn't know that some of their philosophers were born in Africa. I thought that everyone was born in "Greece."

It is my understanding that "gymnasium" is pronounced with a hard "g" and means "school."

Robby

Although the Greeks encountered natives in North Africa, it is obvious that the city of Carthage, which was already there, had a civilization of its own and could hardly be called aborigines. As Durant stated, the Greeks founded a colony near Carthage. I have just finished reading a HISTORY OF CARTHAGE.

May I suggest that you will find it helpful to read this before moving on in our study of the Greeks? Although it is fairly long, I read it from beginning to end. It is utterly fascinating. It also tells where the Greeks came into the picture.

Were the poppy and opium part of Greek trade?
"The poppy plant and its hypnotic qualities were well known in the classical period of ancient Greece and are mentioned by contemporary writers. It was regarded as a magic or poisonous plant and was used in religious ceremonies. At a later date it was also employed in the art of healing.

"The original of this article is in Greek.

"The ancient Greeks portrayed the divinities Hypnos (Sleep), Nyx (Night), and Thanatos (Death) wreathed with poppies or carrying poppies in their hands. They adorned statues of Apollo, Asklepios, Pluto, Demeter, Aphrodite, Kybele, Isis and other deities in like manner. Sometimes ears of corn were added to the bunch of poppies.

"Poppy-capsules, with or without the addition of ears of corn, are also found on figurines, bas-reliefs, vases, tombstones, coins and jewellery."
For more click this link. Early History of the Poppy and Opium

That was very interesting, ROBBY. I do not believe that "silent trade" tale. I think it is just another example of tradition distorting truth.

I fully believe HANNO traveled down the West coast of Africa. His rivers and mountains of fire sound all too real, as well as his descriptions of deserts.

I read quite a bit previously about Pygmalion and the Queen of Tyre. The timing would seem to insist that this queen and Dido could not possibly have been one and the same. Carthage had been around for a while when Dido came upon the scene. (I have identified with her since I first read The Aeneid of Virgil.) Again, tradition perverting truth.

I did not know that the Baal religion came from Pygmalion's grandfather. Finally, this article forces me to look at differences between the Aryan and Semitic tribes as the ancient world saw them, particularly since many of these are still perceived as differences in our time, especially when people want to be pejorative.

The Ancient Greeks might have gone over to Africa near Carthage but Carthage wasn't just a city. Notice this map of the CARTHAGINIAN EMPIRE. The empire is marked in red. Notice how it even includes a hunk of what is now Spain.

Robby

The only ancient history I had ever studied was my senior year high school. None in college. Somehow I always visualized this small country named Greece where these various philosophers lived and said things that came down through the ages. I never saw them as having a civilization that touched Asia Minor, Egypt, Italy, North Africa, France, and Spain -- never mind up north along the Rhone River.
This trip with Durant and you folks has been quite an eye-opener for me!

Robby

A comment in the Columbia Enclopedia referring to the Crimean Peninsula, now part of the Russian sphere of influence.

"Known in ancient times as Tauris, the peninsula was the home of the Cimmerian people, called the Tauri. Expelled from the steppe by the Scythians in the 7th cent. B.C., they founded (5th cent. B.C.) the kingdom of Cimmerian Bosporus, which later came under Greek influence. Ionian and Dorian Greeks began to colonize the coast in the 6th cent., and the peninsula became the major source of wheat for ancient Greece. In the 1st cent. B.C., the kingdom of Pontus began to rule the Greek part of the peninsula, which became a Roman protectorate in the 1st cent. A.D."

I continue to be amazed that the influence of the Greek civilization went that far north.

Robby

"Not to know what happened before one was born is always to be a child."

-- Marcus Tullius Cicero

Love that Cicero! We'll get to studying about him one of these years. In the meanwhile, I have just watched a segment of our evening news in a visit to real time Iraq. I am very troubled by the fantasies Saddam is foisting upon the Iraqui peoples, and even more troubled as to whether or not they believe these fantasies or tales are true! This evening we were taken on yet another visit to yet another new multi-million dollar palace in a nation of dire poverty. This time, we were taken through extremely ornate doors into a huge, air-conditioned circular room. Huge. Large glass shelves in several tiers all around this room, each with hidden, set-in lighting. Large pages of the Koran in Arabic on beautiful illuminated pages. Writing in dark red. Said to be, every word of it, written in Saddam's blood.

I am not attempting to talk politics of any type here. What I want to express is a fear I am forming of a culture so different it can, possibly, hold no skepticism for this type of claim. I often find myself not believing something a person I otherwise hold in normal esteem (until or unless I find I should not) is trying to sell me. It might be a salesman, a politician, a fibbing child, or you name it; MaryPage has to be shown the goods before she will buy in. Show me. Convince me. Sell me. And it won't be easy. I think most Americans, and indeed, most citizens of the so-called "Western World" relate to my attitude. So what are we to make of a culture where the populace are so gullible?

I wish Mahlia were here to comment. Do you all get my drift, and is this frightening IN THIS DAY AND AGE?

Yes, MaryPage and it reflects what we are all afraid of considering the current sophistication of weapons for warfare.

Durant continues:--"Within Egypt itself the Greeks gained at last an empire. About 650 the Milesians opened a 'factory,' or trading post, at Naucratis on the Canopic branch of the Nile. Pharaoh Psamtik I tolerated them because they made good mercenaries, while their commerce provided rich prey for his collectors of customs revenues.
"Ahmose II gave them a large measure of self-government. Naucratis became almost an industrial city, with manufactures of pottery, terra cotta, and faience. Still more it became an emporium of trade, bringing in Greek oil and wine, and sending out Egyptian wheat, linen, and wool, African ivory, frankincense, and gold.
"Gradually, amid these exchanges, Egyptian lore and techniques in religion, architecture, sculpture, and science flowed into Greece, while in return Greek words and ways entered Egypt, and paved the way for Greek domination in the Alexandrian age."
Again it was migrate and mix, migrate and mix, migrate and mix. Familiar?
Robby

Yes, Mary Page, we are all gullible- some less than others, some more. What did the German people accept from Hitler and his Nazi propagandist? Why are priests able to convince us of the validity of their arguments? Fundementalists accept these arguments without question but many give lip service and so contribute to the overall damage.

I have often wondered how the Greeks and Egyptians came to share their cultures. Now I know. Greek trading cities were established in Egypt. Trading goods from those cities went out to the world and with the goods went the religious ideas of Egypt and Greece. The mystery cults of Osirus, Dionysius, Mithra, and others must have been transported on the same channels. Not only did religious ideas move in this way, but so did architectural designs and art works. It was one thing for Greece to become Magna Grecia but quite a richer thing for Egypt and Greece to blend and for the blending to be disseminated to the known world. We will see, I am sure, the results of this blending when we come to Rome and to the formation of Christianity. I do not wish us to get ahead of ourselves but rather to examine the character of the blending of these two cultures while we are in sixth and fifth century Greece.

In this 21st century, trading is going on world-wide. Does anyone see the religions of today being transported on the same channels?

Robby

I wonder if these people worried about globalization?

Mal

Please clarify Robby? I don't understand your question...

My question was a follow up of Justin's previous posting, using the same phraseology.

Robby

Sat down with the book for a bit last night, and there are some comments I simply have to pull out about some stuff a few pages back that excited me:

Page 167: In 664 B.C., in Locri, the first written code of laws in the history of Greece was adopted. The FIRST WRITTEN code of laws of GREECE! And where was this, Folks? Huh? Look at your map again. It was in ITALY! Fascinating!

Then I became enamored of Xenophanes. Do you know how to pronounce that? I don't. Maybe Zee na faun eeeez? Anyway, it is his iconoclasm that grabs me. He lived to be a hundred and founded a Greek school of philosophy in Italy when he was my age! He questioned much of the existing dogma, but particularly the bit about man being made in the image of God. His argument is delicious! Me, I have always held it a huge insult to God to hold as explicit theology that we look like Her! Going on to Page 168, we find this greatest of philosophers HAD FIGURED OUT that seas once covered places such as mountaintops because marine fossils were found there! This wows me! Who Knew that He Knew! That Anyone did, back then!

Then we go on to Page 169, and the comment that CUMAE is the oldest Greek town in the West. We should know that bit. Then the explanation that Neapolis was "New City", or our present day Naples! Reminds me of what we just learned of Carthage, that city having been given the name of New Town in the Phoenician language, which shortened over centuries to Carthage. My own home town in Virginia was originally called "The New Town", which shortened to Newton. The famous old apple, the Newton Pippin, was discovered there. Now the town is called Stephens City, but the apple's name has never changed.

Did you all catch the bit about the Greeks from IONIA (the Phocaeans from what is now Turkey) taking the GRAPE VINES to France! Now there is a bit of Trivia to know if going for the money! The French got their grape vines from the Greeks arriving from Turkey!

I'm all the way up to Page 171, where I have stopped to marvel at the Lipari practicing Communism waaaaaaay back then in the islands between Sicily and Italy. Have we all become convinced by now that there is nothing new under our sun? Catch up with you later...........

"If, in imagination we take a merchant vessel from Naucratis to Athens, our tour of the Greek world will be complete. It was necessary that we should make this long circuit in order that we might see and feel the extent and variety of Hellenic civilization.
"Aristotle described the constitutional history of 158 Greek city-states, but there were a thousand more. Each contributed in commerce, industry, and thought to what we mean by Greece.
"In the colonies, rather than on the mainland, were born Greek poetry and prose, mathematics and metaphysics, oratory and history. Without them, and the thousand absorbing tentacles which they stretched out into the old world, Greek civilization, the most precious product in history, might never have been.
"Through them the cultures of Egypt and the Orient passed into Greece, and Greek culture spread slowly into Asia, Africa, and Europe."
So the power rested with the colonies and not the "old country." See any similarities either in past or present times?
Robby

Very shortly we will be approaching the 1000th posting for the second time!! We will, of course, be asked to click onto the new page but discussions will continue right on with no interruption. Just make sure you click onto the Subscribe button.

Robby

We now approach that part of the history of Ancient Greece which is probably the most familiar to the general populace - - -
The Gods of Greece
"When we look for unifying elements in the civilization of these scattered cities, we find essentially five -- a common language, with local dialects -- a common intellectual life, in which only major figures in literature, philosophy, and science are known far beyond their political frontiers -- a common passion for athletics, finding outlet in municipal and interstate games -- a love of beauty locally expressed in forms of art common to all the Greek communities -- and a partly common religious ritual and belief."

Robby

Finished reading up to Page 175. This is hard work, because I have plenty of additional life and reading, and because with this study I also have nine other books lying open on sofa and chairs, with bookmarks in them, which I am using to augment our text.

Noted on Page 171 that Helen of Troy was eventually made a god. First time I've heard that. Also find it interesting that, for superstitious reasons, Stesichorus wrote revisionist history Big Time in an attempt to improve her reputation and receive her goddess beneficence.

I found CYRENE on my maps, and it is exactly opposite homeland Greece, just as CARTHAGE is exactly opposite Sicily. Does anyone know what the silphium plant was and what spice was derived from it? I have not found it in my dictionaries, but that is the only place I have looked thus far.

"Under the polite and general worship of the remote Olympians lay the intenser cults of local deities and powers who served no vassalage to Zeus. Tribal and political separatism nourished polytheism, and made monotheism impossible.
"In the early days every family had its own god. To him the divine fire burned unextinguished at the hearth, and to him offerings of food and wine were made before every meal. This holy communion, of sharing of food with the god, was the basic and primary act of religion in the home. Birth, marriage, and death were sanctified into sacraments by ancient ritual before the sacred fire. In this way religion suffused a mystic poetry and a stabilizing solemnity over the elemental events of human life.
"In like manner the gene, the phratry, the tribe, and the city had each its special god. Athens worshiped Athena, Eleusis Demeter, Samos Hera, Ephesus Artemis, Poseidonia Poseidon. The center and summit of the city was the shrine of the city god. Participation in the worship of the god was the sign, the privilege, and the requisite of citizenship. When the city marched out to war, it carried the form and emblem of its god in the forefront of the troops, and no important step was taken without consulting him through divination. In return he fought for the city, and sometimes seemed to appear at the head or above the spears of the soldiers. Victory was the conquest not only of a city by a city but of a god by a god.
"The city, like the family or the tribe, kept always burning, at a public altar in the prytaneum or town hall, a sacred fire eymbolizing the mystically potent and persistnt life of the city's founders and heroes. Periodically the citizens partook of a common meal before this fire.
"Just as in the family the father was also the priest, so in the Greek city the chief magistrate or archon was the high priest of the state religion, and all his powers and actions were sanctified by the god."
I wonder sometimes if our local cults (cliques) don't have local deities, although we might not call them such. We do, however, kowtow down to these beliefs as a local group and would not consider breaking these unspoken rules or following the rules of another neighborhood, or city, or section of the nation. Doesn't "political separatism" exist now? Aren't the local "cults" often more intense and refusing to "serve vassalge" to the larger belief?
How about the political conventions in which, while nothing of any importance is done to choose a candidate who has already been chosen, the states "wage war" against each other, carrying their "gods" on high? Does this not emphasize "polytheism?" And, at these conventions, is not the word "sacred" a commonly used word?
Robby

Click HERE to consider What are Our Origins and Where Are We Now?

Robby

Here is a thought for Mary Page; If we are cast in the image of God and she is satisfied with that then I would have to be a transvestite to fit the mold. Females who see the image as male, have a similar problem. The concept seems to dictate a unisex population. The reverse thought, that God is made in our image, leads to other interesting conclusions.

Robby: This question of trade carrying religion along with the cargo is not an unexpected result. Lot's of examples about. Columbus and his trading mission brought Christianity to the natives of the new world or was it India. Balboa did the same thing. So did Cabrillo. Father Marquette came with the French traders. Long before these traders and their religious colleagues came the Greeks to Europe, Asia, and Africa with their mystery cults.

As we have examined these early civilizations I have asked the question again and again ,"What good does religion provide for people?" Now we are on the threshold of the Greek religions. As we enter this examination let us try to understand the value of religion to people and to society. It must have value. Otherwise it would not be so popular. We have so far been hard pressed to see the good in religion. Jehovah (Yahway) was a vengeful God and the gods of other societies have been no easier on people. So let us try to find the good in the Greek mystery religions.

MaryPage, My Chambers 20thC dict. from 1962 gives this definition of silphium: a plant perh. the umbelliferous Ferula tingitane imported from Cirenaica by the Greeks for food and medicine;
Silphium, a genus of The American composites, compass plants.

God, male or female? In hebrew, it has been solved because the word itself is a plural, it does not exist in the singular form, just like Skies or Water. Water is a composite of all the drops and God is the composite for all forms? I suppose one could say that all creations (creatures?) are in the image of God. This is a new insight maybe. Bubble

Justin throws down the gauntlet. "As we enter this examination let us try to understand the value of religion to people and to society. It must have value. Otherwise it would not be so popular. So let us try to find the good in the Greek mystery religions."

It is true that as we passed through the various civilizations, there always seemed to be a negative effect of religion and the "priests." Yet, as Justin wisely states, evolutionarily speaking, it would not have continued if it did not have some value toward the Progress of Mankind. If we put our mind toward it, we may see something we hadn't noticed before.

Robby

"Liberated by local independence, the religious imagination of Greece produced a luxuriant mythology and a populous pantheon. Every object or force of earth or sky, every blessing and every terror, every quality -- even the vices -- of mankind was personified as a deity, usually in human form. No other religion has ever been so anthropomorphic as the Greek. Every craft, profession, and art had its divinity or, as we should say, its patron saint. In addition there were demons, harpies, furies, fairies, gorgons, sirens, nymphs, almost as numerous as the mortals of the earth.
"The old question -- is religion created by priests? -- is here settled. It is incredible that any conspiracy of primitive theologians should have begotten such a plethora of gods. It must have been a boon to have so many deities, so many fascinating legends, sacred shrines, and solemn or joyous festivals.
"Polytheism is as natural as polygamy, and survives as long, suiting well all the contradictory currents of the world. Even today, in Mediterranean Christianity, it is not God who is worshiped, so much as the saints. It is polytheism that sheds over the simple life the inspiring poetry of consolatory myth, and gives to the humble soul the aid and comfort, that it would not venture to expect from a Supreme Being unapproachably awful and remote."
Durant says: "It must have been a boon to have so many deities." To paraphrase Justin -- what was (is) the boon? What would life have been like without these deities?
Lots to think about here.
Robby

In this discussion I am under the impression that speaking in favor of a religion is immediately considered as proselytizing. But I don’t know of anybody who is in favor of all religions, I only know those who are against. Practicing no religion does not mean that a person is an unbeliever. A religion, for some, is necessary for their beliefs in God, for others it is not.

In my mind spirituality is part and parcel of human psyche is can be tucked in the profound niches of the mind, but it is always there lurking and trying to come out. That is why we are always talking about it, whether we are for or against it. This past Christmas I have read on Senior Net hundreds of posts about their celebration of the birth of Christ. Even those who consider themselves atheists or agnostics sometimes celebrate it with more pomp and cheer than Christian believers, putting as much decorations in their houses as they could possibly afford and having family gatherings and exchanging gifts. Thanksgiving gives thanks to whom, certainly not to heads of states.

I am not interested in discussing my Christian beliefs here but I always respect what other people say, it is their prerogative. In my mind my behavior speaks for itself.

Eloïse

Proselytizing is defined as trying to convert someone to your religion. I don't see any of that here, thankfully. Speaking positively about religion, using the word "religion" as a more or less general and genetic term, has not brought a storm of protests here, as far as I can see, and there are plenty of people who do speak positively about religion, Eloise. I will say that it's entirely possible to be a spiritual person (whatever that is; it's never been sufficiently explained to me) without being under the umbrella of a religion.

The polytheism of the Greeks seems little different to me from the polytheism we've seen before in other religions. Since the very earliest times people have tried to explain mysteries and find answers to questions through gods and their aegis. So funny. I've been finding so many Greek words in the English language since we began reading this book, only because I've become more aware of them.

A Supreme Being unapproachably awful and remote? Sure, it was (is) easier and better to have many gods. Rain god, food god, war god, peace god, kitchen god, on and on. They specialize and have more time for that particular need than does one god, which must be swamped. No wonder that one god is unapproachable and awful!

What was the boon of all these gods? Well, they filled a need, didn't they? I think people are basically childlike at many times in their lives. It's always nice to have family around in times of need, and a family of gods must have made the Greeks feel a whole lot better, as if, in fact, they were not facing difficult choices in a difficult world all alone.

Mal

I feel I must answer Eloise's post, even though it might shock her and I make a change in my usual reserve on this topic.

That agnostics or unbelievers take such a pleasure in decorating, celbrating in food and presents Christmas has nothing to do with religion! I would do the same were I in another country and it has no meaning whatsoever for me. It is just plain fun to decorate, to have the festive mood. It would be the same fun if it was called the festival of the Home Lares or anything else. What attract all are the trimmings around that day, I would even call it the commercial side of it. I am sure that is not what Christmas means for you personally, but that is what attracts everyone to it.

Maybe we need some magic, some fantastic in our lives. We cannot be realistic and down to earth all the time. Religion provides an outlet to that wish.

Some religion also make it easier to make "moral" decisions which would be acceptable in that society. In some cases people even receive direct advice on what to do. It is like asking ones' parents to decide and some people are always happy to have another take the responsability of choice from them. Bubble

Eloise says:--"In this discussion I am under the impression that speaking in favor of a religion is immediately considered as proselytizing."
Let me create an example so that this will not be misunderstood.
I am a firm believer in Boolah, my God. I pray to Him daily, read the Boolah Bible, and attend a temple with others who believe in Boolah. I believe in Him so firmly that I state emphatically that He is the only God.
By stating that He is the only God, I have, in effect, stated that your god is false. Now I have been prosylytizing and that is not permitted here.
But I don't stop there. I feel sorry for you folks who have not tasted the Truth of Boolah's teachings and urge you to repent and become a follower of Boolah. Now I have really broken through the boundary.
Doing something like this will involve a warning. Twice will mean you are removed from The Story of Civilization.
Here is the original post:--

"To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."