Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume II, Part 3 ~ Nonfiction
jane
January 18, 2003 - 06:52 pm


What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!





  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)





Volume Two ("The Life of Greece")

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "








ADMINISTRATION







"The method of election in the choice of archons is replaced by lot."

"More importance is attached to military than to civil office."

"The maintenance of the army and the navy constitutes the chief expenditure of the state."

"The faults of the system will appear vividly as its history unfolds."





In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

Will Durant attacks in this volume the absorbing, perennially fascinating problem of Greek civilization. Dr. Durant tells the whole story of Hellas, from the days of Crete's vast Aegean empire to the extirpation of the last remnants of Greek liberty, crushed under the heel of an implacably forward-marching Rome. This is a preeminently vivid re-creation of Greek culture brought to the reader through the medium of a supple and vigorous prose.

Like a great drama, The Life of Greece finds a climax in fifth-century Athens, and Will Durant's picture of the city of Pericles is a masterpiece of synthesis, compressing into about two hundred pages the high spots and eternal significances of what many have considered the most fruitful epoch in history. The Life of Greece has taken its place as the most brilliant story of a magnificently endowed people whose career ended in tragedy and unwanted assimilation because they discovered a world view too late.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.



Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca





Story of Civilization, Vol II, Part 1
Story of Civilization, Vol. II, Part 2
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Internet Citation Procedure



jane
January 19, 2003 - 07:47 am
Remember to subscribe, if you use subscriptions

MaryPage
January 19, 2003 - 07:49 am
Y'all are Baaaaad. Think I'll just ignore you!

Thanks, Bubble, for that definition. After thinking about the article found, and musing on previous bits and pieces of history and potions read, I find it most significant that (1) silphium is now an extinct plant, (2) it made Cyrene so wealthy that pictures of the plant appeared on their coinage, (3) it was much in demand, (4) it was used for birth control and was actually an abortifacient "similar to preparations made from related plant species". Think the Durants were using a safe cover when they called it a "spice." In other places, have read there were once a number of abortifacients growing on this planet, including at least one here in North America. They were all picked and used to extinction! Again, abortion is a subject some insist is a "new and terrible" development in our times. A study of history shows it to have been practiced from the very beginnings of our beginning. This is not a pro or con thing, so please don't pick up on it as being that. Just studying history here and gleaning its truths!

I (this is said tongue in cheek, lest some of you mistake me!) rather like this religion of Classical Greece. Can quite put myself in the place (fantasy time here!) of some rich, beautiful and influential woman who would like to be made a goddess. So would I! Expect I would have knocked myself out to bring this about! Worshipped forever ..........hmmmm! Did any of you see the PBS series (now for sale in VHS and DVD) I CLAUDIUS? It is Roman, and we aren't there yet, but my point is that Livia, wife of Augustus, did all her dirty deeds because she so desperately wanted to be made a god! Y'all bow down towards Annapolis now!

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2003 - 07:59 am
"Each of the gods had a mythos, which accounted for his place in the city's life, or for the ritual that honored him. These myths, rising spontaneously out of the lore of the place and the people, or out of the inventions and embellishments of rhapsodists, became at once the faith and the philosophy, the literature and the history of the early Greek. From them came the subjects that adorned Greek vases, and suggested to artists countless paintings, statues, and reliefs.

"Despite the achievements of philosophy and the attempts of a few to preach a monotheistic creed, the people continued to the end of Hellenic civilization to create myths, and even gods. Men like Heracleitus might allegorize the myths, or like Plato adapt them, or like Xenophanes denounce them. But when Pausanias toured Greece five centuries after Plato, he found still alive among the people the legends that had warmed the heart of the Homeric age.

"The mythopoetic, theopoetic process is natural, and goes on today as always. There is a birth rate as well as a death rate of the gods. Deity is like energy, and its quantity remains, through all vicissitudes of form, approximately unchanged from generation to generation."

The legend process "goes on today as always?" In varying forms "from generation to generation?"

Robby

Faithr
January 19, 2003 - 02:51 pm
I think I read that Freud studied the Greek gods and goddess' carefully to find out how to "name" his idea of psychic aberrations or complexes or illness' if you call them that. As I read the stories of the greek gods and goddess' I can see why. They seem to have known and named all our complexes and our good and bad "psychic" features too. It is hard for me to state exactly what I mean here. Their "religion" with is panoply of gods and goddess' encompassed all the traits that make humans- human. I love the stories and they have such deep meanings. The Greeks seem to have put into stories all the psychology of mind that we still are trying to figure out.

But the question was what good does religion do. I think it is the binder of a culture. The ritual's called religion bind individuals into a homogeneous group which is "us" and can be trusted. while over there somewhere are the" other." Faith.

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2003 - 03:09 pm
You give us concepts to examine, Faith. "Their "religion" with its panoply of gods and goddess' encompassed all the traits that make humans- human."

Were they being more "psychological" than "religious?"

And your other concept. "The rituals called religion bind individuals into a homogeneous group."

Does this positive aspect outweigh the negative influences?

Robby

Faithr
January 19, 2003 - 07:54 pm
Well,re: your post #5, Robby, in primates, a homogeneous group is more adept at survival than individuals. But in order to cooperate you must be bound by sameness it seems. Now that may cause other problems for sure, but it helped groups survive and be willing to kill other groups.. I could go on about getting together an army but only have vague ideas forulated about "fighting for God", not really a good grasp of that concept so will forgo that for the present. But this forum is certainly making me think about stuff I have been learning all my life and never had to put into words or concrete ideas before. It is good for me. faith

Justin
January 19, 2003 - 10:50 pm
Good thought, Faith, I think religions do promote homogeneity. One may reasonably question the value of homogeneity, however. Included in a homogeneous package are things like "gangs", nationalism, churches, clubs, etc. and with that quickly comes the idea that my club is more exclusive than your club. I wonder if homogeneity is a benefit or a curse. It takes two to make a marriage and that's difficult enough. Three makes a menage à trois and that is very difficult to manage.

Justin
January 19, 2003 - 11:11 pm
"By the conscription of the supernatural, man was tamed from a hunter to a citizen".

The quote above from the Durants seems to indicate that they think religion brings about homogeneity and that homogeneity is a civilizing force. I see a hunter as an independent operator and a citizen as a member of a community. Does anyone think the Durant's are saying here that religion promotes civilization? The quote does seem to have that seed in it. Does it not?

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2003 - 05:11 am
Jane has put the most recent 1000 posts of The Life of Greece in the archive files and you can access them by clicking onto "Part 2" just below my name in the heading above.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2003 - 05:25 am
Durant makes it easier for us to understand and remember the Grecian gods by categorizing them. He gives us what he calls

AN INVENTORY OF THE GODS

"We shall force some order and clarity upon this swarm of gods if we artifically divide them into seven groups:--sky-gods, earth-gods, fertility-gods, animal gods, subterranean gods, ancestor or hero gods, and Olympians. As Hesiod said: 'The names of all of them it were troublesome for a mortal man to tell.'"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2003 - 05:33 am
SKY-GODS

"Originally, so far as we can make out, the great god of the invading Greeks, as of the Vedic Hindus, was the noble and various sky itself. It was probably this sky-god who with progressing anthropomorphism became Uranus, or Heaven, and then the 'cloud-compelling,' rain-making, thunder-herding Zeus. In a land surfeited with sunshine and hungry for rain, the sun, Hellos, was only a minor deity.

"Agamemnon prayed to him, and the Spartans sacrificed horses to him to draw his flaming chariot through the skies. The Rhodians, in Hellenistic days, honored Heliot as their chief divinity, flung annually into the sea four horses and a chariot for his use, and dedicated to him the famous Colossus. Anaxagoras almost lost his life, even in Periclean Athens, for saying that the sun was not a god, but only a ball of fire.

"Generally, however, there was little worship of the sun in classic Greece. Still less of the moon (Selene). Least of all, of the planets or the stars."

Any comments about the Sky-gods?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2003 - 07:08 am
In most of the current religions with which I am acquainted, except when one bows the head or lies prostrate, ordinarily one addresses the deity by looking up at the sky. I wonder why.

Robby

3kings
January 20, 2003 - 12:26 pm
ROBBY material things have weight, and thus fall downward, while spiritual elements are light, like the air, and float upwards. So Christ was said to have ascended into heaven, after having for three days descended into hades. Thus the requirement to build cathedrals with spires, in the hope that they would literally be closer to heaven, and Moses climbed the mountain to recieve the commandments from God.

"And the land wither thou goest to recieve it, is a land flowing with milk and honey, and drinketh water of the rains of heaven."

Onward and upward, I guess..... -- Trevor

Shasta Sills
January 20, 2003 - 01:57 pm
Gods are personifications of ideas. Lots of little gods are lots of little ideas that have not yet become fused into a comprehensive, cohesive philosophy, or religion. Every god expresses an idea that is important to somebody. This is why religion creates so much strife -- because it's important to people and they want to fight for what they consider important.

Justin
January 20, 2003 - 03:05 pm
Looking up as opposed to looking down for deity is a natural phenomenon. If one looks down the ground is closed. One sees only dirt. Alternatively , if one looks up one sees openness, an unlimited expanse where only the stars and the planets reign. The stars lay in patterns which the imagination of shepards enlarge upon and personify. The larger stars called planets receive names with godly qualities. (Jupitor, Saturn etc.) I don't think the dirt has any qualities that are comparable. Also shepards sleep on their backs and look up at the sky. If they slept on their stomachs we might be looking forward to spending life after death in the dirt where we really do spend infinity.

Malryn (Mal)
January 20, 2003 - 03:36 pm
I'm tired of the mystery of gods and mythology. I want to see people with their feet on the ground and their heads out of the clouds who use reason as the basis for their thoughts and beliefs.

When I first learned about magic, it scared me because I want proof. No religion anywhere at any time has ever offered me enough proof for what it propounds.

When I see what is happening today to people firmly ensconced in one religion or another, all claiming and vying with each other for first rights on the "truth", I cringe.

Surely, the evolution of the human race has gone beyond the realm of all these comfortable, ominiscient, powerful, at-hand gods. Or has it? That's what worries me.

I think we have not advanced beyond the primitive to any sort of reasonable civilization. And that worries me worse.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2003 - 05:39 pm

EARTH-GODS

"First the earth itself was the goddess Ge or Gaea, patient and bountiful mother, pregnant through the embrace of raining Uranus, the sky. A thousand lesser deities dwelt on the earth, in its waters, or in its surrounding air -- spirits of sacred trees, especially the oak.

"Nereids, Naiads, Oceanids, in rivers, lakes, or the sea -- gods gushng forth as wells or spings -- or flowing as stately streams like the Maeander or the Spercheus -- gods of the wind, like Boreas, Zephur, Notus, and Eurus, with their master Acolus -- or the great god Pan, the horned, cloven-footed, sensual, smiling Nourisher, god of shepherds and flocks, of woods and the wild life lurking in them -- he whose magic flute could be heard in every brook and dell, whose startling cry brought panic to any careless herd, and whose attendants were merry fauns and satyrs -- and those old satyrs called sileni, half goat and half Socrates.

"Everywhere in nature there were gods. The air was so crowded with spirits of good or evil that, said an unknown poet, 'There is not one empty chink into which you could push the spike of a blade of corn.'"

Some familiar names here. Any comments?

Robby

Justin
January 20, 2003 - 06:25 pm
Sorry Mal, there is no evidence to suggest that people are less gullible than they were 2000 to 2500 years ago. Our president recognizes the benefits of being on the R team and plays to full advantage. The Republican members of Congress also tend to be fellow travelers. There is no difference here from previous civilizations. Ordinary folks believe in spite of all to the contrary. The congregations of fundementalist groups of all persuasions are growing.WHY?

Are people more frightened than they have been in the past. Is there more illitteracy, more ignorance than previously. Are we more gullible than we have been previously. What good do they acquire from membership? What benefits accrue that we have not seen in previous civilizations or do they grow in spite of a lack of true value?

The growth of these groups is a phenomenon that is hard to explain. There are many who have formed habits of participation over long years but there are also many who suddenly think it is a good thing to do- to participate. There are also many who move around a great deal within the same cosmos.

Malryn (Mal)
January 20, 2003 - 08:58 pm
GAIA

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2003 - 04:50 am
FERTILITY GODS

"The most mysterious and potent force in nature being reproduction, it was natural that the Greeks, like other ancient peoples, should worship the principle and emblems of fertility in man and woman along with their worship of fertility in the soil. The phallus, as symbol of reproduction, appears in the rites of Demeter, Dionysus, Hermes, even of the chaste Artemis.

"In classical sculpture and painting this emblem recurs with scandalous frequency. Even the Great Dionysis, the religious festival at which the Greek drama was played, was introduced by phallic processions, to which Athenian colonies piously sent phalli. Doubtless such festivals lent themselves to much lusty humor, as one may judge from Aristophanes, but all in all the humor was healthy, and perhaps served the purpose of stimulating Eros and promoting the birth rate.

"The more vulgar side of this fertility cult was expressed in the Hellenistic and Roman periods by the worship of Priapus, born of an amour betwen Dionysis and Aphrodite, and popular with vase painters and the mural artists of Pompeii. A lovelier variation of the reproductive theme was the veneration of goddesses representing motherhood. Arcadia, Argos, Eleusis, Athens, Ephesus, and other localities gave their greatest devotion to feminine deities, often husbandless. Such goddesses presumably reflect a primitive matrilinear age before the coming of marriage. The enthronement of Zeus as Father God over all gods represnted the victory of the patriarchal principle.

"One of the most beautiful of Greek myths, skillfully narrated in the Hymn to Demeter once attributed to Homer, tells how Demeter's daughter Persephone, while gathering flowers, was kidnaped by Pluto, god of the underworld, and snatched down to Hades. The sorrowing mother searched for her everywhere, found her, and persuaded Pluto to let Persephone live on the earth nine months in every year -- a pretty symbol for the annual death and rebirth of the soil.

"Because the people of Eleusis befriended the disguised Demeter as she 'sat by the way, grieved in her inmost hearr,' she taught them and Attica the secret of agriculture, and sent Triptolemus, sort of Eleusis' king, to spread the art among mankind.

"Essentially it was the same myth as that of Isis and Osiris in Egypt, Tammuz and Ishtar in Babylonia, Astarte and Adonis in Syria, Cybele and Artis in Phrygia. The cult of motherhood survived through classical times to take new life in the worship of Mary, the Mother of God."

Comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2003 - 06:09 am
Here is a LINK showing how the New Orleans Mardi Gras has an Ancient Greek connection. Surprised?

Again, a warning to always take into consideration the origin of any link.

Robby

MaryPage
January 21, 2003 - 07:23 am
I think the Ancients must have had a lot of fun making up these stories to explain to one another and to their children how this planet and its peoples came into being. I can just see them whooping it up around a campfire, each trying to come up with a tale that would top the last.

One of the, if not the, major factors in creating the mega-congregations we are seeing in brand new fundamentalist Christian sects around this nation today is the emphasis upon music. Millions of dollars are spent on audio equipment and choir directors. I have to laugh at the difference between the professionalism of these choirs and the dreadful discord that would hit my ears back home in our tiny church when I was a child, where our small choir consisted of volunteers, some of whom simply could not carry a note.

Young men who wanted to minister to large numbers went about the country observing the more successful congregations back in the sixties. They discovered participation, such as that practiced in black and Pentecostal churches, caused people to really want to turn out on Sundays. They worked as hard at giving people what they want as do our film makers. Now, if you are careful to ask not what a believer believes, but why they chose the particular church (not sect, but building in place) they attend, they will almost always respond with enthusiasm: "Oh, they have such great music!" or "Oh, I just love the singing!"

When you spend a couple of hours singing your heart out with hundreds of, if not a thousand or more, people, you achieve a kind of adrenaline effect such as you get from a good skiing experience. It is a real upper, and makes many believe they have experienced God.

Shasta Sills
January 21, 2003 - 04:10 pm
Unlike Mal, I love mythology. The trick is not to take it too seriously. In that article about Mardi Gras, that guy sure knew a lot about all those pagan gods, didn't he? I got the impression he spent more time studying them than he spent studying his Bible.

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2003 - 04:22 pm
I didn't say I do not like mythology, Shasta. I was talking about religion.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2003 - 05:44 pm
SOME PICTURES OF GODS

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2003 - 06:28 pm
ANIMAL GODS

"Certain animals, in early Greece, were honored as semideities. Greek religion was too anthropomorphic, in its sculptural age, to admit the divine menageries that we find in Egypt and India. But a vestige of a less classical past appears in the frequent association of an animal with a god.

"The bull was sacred because of its strength and potency. It was often an associate, disguise, or symbol of Zeus and Dionysus, and perhaps preceded them as a god. In like manner the 'cow-eyed Hera' may once have been a sacred cow.

"The pig too was holy because of its fertility. It was associated with the gentle Demeter. At one of her festivals, the Thesmophoria, the sacrifice was ostensibly of a pig, possibly to it.

"At the feast of the Diasia the sacrifice was nominally to Zeus, really to a subterranean snake that was now dignified with his name. Whether the snake was holy as supposedly deathless, or as a symbol of reproductive power, we find it passing down as a deity from the snake-goddess of Crete into fifth-century Athens. In the temple of Athena, on the Acropolis, a sacred serpent dwelt to whom, each month, a honey cake was offered in appeasing sacrifice.

"In Greek art a snake is often seen about the figures of Hermes, Apollo, and Aselepius. Under the shield of Pheidias' Athene Parthenos was wreathed a mighty serpent. The Farnase Athena is half covered with snakes. The snake was often used as a symbol or form of the guardian deity of temple or home. Perhaps because it prowled about tombs, it was believed to be the soul of the dead.

"The Pythian games are thought to have been celebrated, at first, in honor of the dead python of Delphi."

No question of the place that the snake held in early Greek religion.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2003 - 06:41 pm
FARNASE ATHENA PICTURE

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2003 - 06:44 pm
SUBTERRANEAN GODS

"The most terrible of the gods were under the earth. In caves and clefts and like nether chambers dwelt those chthonian or earthly deities whom the Greeks worshiped not by day with loving adoration, but at night with apotropaic rites of riddance and fear.

"These vague nonhuman powers were the real autochthonoi of Greece, older than the Hellenes, older perhaps than the Mycemaeans, who probably transmitted them to Greece. If we could trace them to their origin, we might find that they were the vengeful spirits of the animals that had been driven into the forests or under the soil by the advance and multiplication of men.

"The greatest of these subterranean deities was called Zeus Chthonios, but Zeus here meant merely god. Or he was called Zeus Meilichios, the Benevolent God. Here again the words were deceptive and propitiatory, for this god was a fearful snake.

"Brother to Zeus was Hades, lord of the underworld that took his name. To placate him the Greeks called him Pluto, the giver of abundance, for had it in his power to bless or blight the roots of all things that grew in the soil.

"Still more ghostly and terrible was Hecate, an evil spirit that came up from the lower world and brought misfortune, through her evil eye, to all whom she visited. The less learned Greeks sacrificed puppies to keep her away."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2003 - 07:00 pm
ANCESTOR OR HERO GODS

"Before the classical age, the dead were regarded as spirits capable of good and evil to men, and were appeased with offerings and prayer. They were not quite gods, but the primitive Greek family, like the Chinese, honored its dead beyond any deity. In classical Greece these vague ghosts were more dreaded than loved, and were propitiated with aversion rituals, as in the festival of Anthesteria.

"The worship of heroes was an extension of the cult of the dead. Great, noble, or beautiful men or women could be raised by the gods to immortal life and become minor deities. So the people of Olympia offered annual sacrifice to Hippodameia. Cassandra was worshiped at Laconian Leuctra, Helen at Sparta, Oedipus at Colonus. Or a god might descend into the body of a mortal, and transform him with divinity. Or the god might cohabit with a mortal and beget a hero-god, as Zeus with Alemena begot Heracles.

"Many cities, groups, even professions, traced their orgin to some god-born hero. So the physicians of Greece looked back to Aselepus.

"The god was once a dead man, ancestor, or hero. The temple was originally a tomb. The church is still in most lands a shelter for relics of the sacred dead.

"In general the Greeks made less distinction between men and gods than we do. Many of their gods were as human, except in birth, as our saints, and as close to their worshipers and though they were called Immortals, some of them, like Dionysus, could die."

Robby

Justin
January 22, 2003 - 12:39 am
The Greeks make less distinction between men and gods than we do. It is not clear what Durant means by this. Jesus, for example, is a God but he died as a man, as did Dionysus. They look similar to me.

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2003 - 04:18 am
Durant has told us about the six groups of "lesser deities." Now (see GREEN quotes above), he moves on to the Olympians.

"All the members of those six groups were the less famous, though not necessarily the less honored, gods of Greece. How is it that we hear so little of them in Homer, and so much of the Olympians? Probably because the gods of Olympus entered with the Achaeans and Dorians, overlaid the Mycenaean and chthonian deities, and conquered them as their worshipers were conquered.

"We see the change in action at Dodona and Delphi, where the older god of the earth, Gaea, was displaced in the one case by Zeus, in the other by Apollo. The defeated gods were not wiped out. They remained, so to speak, as subject deities, hiding bitterly underground, but still revered by the common people, while the victorious Olympians received on their mountaintop the worship of the aristocracy.

"Hence Homer, who composed for the elite, says almost nothing of the nether gods. Homer, Hesiod, and the sculptors helped the political ascendancy of the conquerors to spread the cult of the Olumpians. Sometimes the minor gods were combined or absorbed into the greater figures, or became their attendants or satellites, very much as minor states were now and then attached or subjected to greater ones. So the satyrs and sileni were given to Dionysus, the sea nymphs to Poseidon, the mountain and forest sprites to Artemis.

"The more savage rites and myths faded out. The chaos of a demon-haunted earth yielded to a semiorderly divine government that reflected the growing political stability of the Greek world."

Politics and religion. People are conquered and their gods are then conquered and displaced. Class and religion. One group of gods for the aristocracy and another group of gods for the common people.

Robby

Bubble
January 22, 2003 - 04:48 am
Late in posting this note... Snake of course is in the attributes oe Aesculape, the God of healing. The venom was used both as a means for death and as a remedy. Bubble

MaryPage
January 22, 2003 - 05:02 am
Look at your schedules for any PBS channels your tv offers for a program titled "JOURNEY OF MAN". This fits right in with a book I purchased recently, "Mapping Human History." A wonderful 2 hour documentary I watched last night, it shows that DNA tracking has proved the San Bushmen (who are almost extinct) in Botswana are most closely related to original Homo Sapiens. The show shows (as does the book) why we now know how and when a group of this tribe left Africa and where they went. It throws a lot of historians' guesses into the proverbial cocked hat! I watched this on MPT, and it is not listed as a repeat for the remainder of this week. Bound to show up again one day, though! Try it; you'll be delighted and amazed!

Have thought and thought and thought about this statement by the Durants on Page 175 of our S of C. "Tribal and political separatism nourished polytheism, and made monotheism impossible." This fits a lot about Christianity, as well. The first Church would have dearly loved to have been the only one, and to achieve one universal church with one tradition, dogma, liturgy, and leadership. It just did not work! Lots of little "heresies" cropped up continually, some put down brutally. After a thousand years came the Big Schism, which separated East from West. Various orders of the Church had disagreements with Mother Rome, as well as great disagreements among themselves. A few hundred years, and along came Luther and others like him. I believe we discovered while studying the first book of our series that a Christian Encyclopedia shows over thirty thousand different sects within Christianity! There we are: "Tribal and political separation!"

Page 176: "no other religion has ever been so anthropomorphic as the Greek." Well, JUSTIN makes a good point about this, yet it remains true, so far as I have been able to discover, that only the Greeks and the Romans allowed a fully human leader or hero to be elevated to godship. (godship??)

On the same page (literally), I also liked the Durants list of how the myths came about; most especially: "the inventions and embellishments of rhapsodists", as this is the way I envision as being the leading edge. On Page 177, I loved their comment: "there is a birth rate as well as a death rate of the gods."

Well, I believe that has always been true and always will be. If homo sapiens is still inhabiting this planet in another thousand years, and if we were able to come back to observe, we would probably not recognize any of the religions practised.

Malryn (Mal)
January 22, 2003 - 09:32 am
We are already witnessing changes in the Ancient Greek religion. There have been enormous changes in the liberal religion in which I was raised since I was a little girl and first went to Sunday School. There have been changes in the way Judaism is practiced; changes in the Catholic religion in the past 75 years. I don't know Islam well enough to know if there have been changes in that religion.

Mal

Shasta Sills
January 22, 2003 - 09:49 am
MaryPage, I saw that program last night too, and was fascinated. Isn't it amazing what they can do with DNA?

Mal, mythology is the early form of religion. A thousand years from now, people will look at today's religions and think how quaint and naive they were. It's only because we are living with them in the 'here and now' that we don't see them as mythology.

Malryn (Mal)
January 22, 2003 - 09:54 am
Shasta, I am aware of that fact. What I intended to say was that I was talking about religion today. My point was that I believe it's time to begin using reason instead of myths as a motivating force. If that ever happens, perhaps civilization can truly progress instead of continuing in the two steps forward, one and one half steps backward, regressive, destructive pattern we see today and have seen throughout repetitive history.

Mal

MaryPage
January 22, 2003 - 04:28 pm
Glad you caught that show, SHASTA. MAL, I agree with everything you say, but you know people are not going to give up their cherished beliefs. In last night's program, the Native Australians who gave their blood in the DNA testing for tracing our history were absolutely fine about every word told them except the fact they had walked there from Africa (yes, walked there, except for the last 150 miles of ocean!). No way! They came right up out of the earth there in Australia. For Sure! Ditto the Navajo in Arizona, who turn out to be the first ones who got to the Americas. They were created right there in them there hills, and you better believe it! Boy, were they loaded with turquoise. What say you, SHASTA?

Justin
January 22, 2003 - 04:41 pm
Speak for yourself, Shasta Sills, for me, the multitude of religious sects, we, today, call Christianity, is simply a modern expression of evolution in mythology. It is all an extention of the Osirus-Dionysus mystery cults we are now examining.

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2003 - 06:18 pm
"Zeus was not first in time. Uranus and Cronus, as we have seen, preceded him. They and the Titans, like Lucifer's hosts, were overthrown. Zeus and his brothers cast lots to divide the world amongst them. Zeus won the sky, Poseidon the sea, Hades the bowels of the earth.

"There is no creation in this mythology. The world existed before the gods, and the gods do not make man out of the slime but beget him by union among themselves, or with their mortal offspring. God is literally the Father in the theology of the Greeks.

"Nor are the Olympians omnipotent or omniscient. Each limits the other, or even opposes the other. Any one of them, especially Zeus, can be deceived. Nevertheless they acknowledge his suzerainty, and crowd his court like the retainers of a feudal lord. Though he consults them on occasion, and now and then yields his preference to theirs, he frequently puts them in their place.

"He begins as a sky-and-mountain-god, provider of the indispensable rain. Like Yahweh he is, among his earlier forms, a god of war. He debates with himself whether to end the siege of Troy or 'make the war more bloody,' and decides for the latter course. Gradually he becomes the calm and mighty ruler of gods and men, bestriding Olympus in bearded dignity.

"He is the head and source of the moral order of the world. He punishes filial neglect -- guards family property -- sanctions oaths -- pursues perjurers -- and protects boundaries, hearths, suppliants, and guests.

"At last he is the serene dispenser of judgment whom Pheidias carves for Olympia."

A very interesting account of how gods themselves can come into being.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 22, 2003 - 07:31 pm
ZEUS

POSEIDON

Justin
January 22, 2003 - 10:54 pm
In post 19 Mal gave us an image of Gaia- the earth mother. The Image came from the Ara Paci in Rome. It is the Altar of Peace erected by Augustus in 9CE upon his return from Gaul. The erection of the Altar signified the beginning of the Augustan peace which the Romans maintained for many years. The Ara Pacis is an open roofed stone carved memorial. One corner was exposed for several centuries and in the 1850's the exposure was expanded and finally in the 1930's all of the work was exposed. The exposure problem included the need to jack up a building for which one part of the Ara Paci served as support. The exposure was very tricky. An altar is enclosed in square shaped precincts with steps leading in and up to the altar. The exterior walls of the precincts are decorated in high relief. One wall contains the family of Augustus, with Livia and all the snotty kids. On one of the end walls we find Gaia with her kids. The style of the relief sculpture is Hellenic. We think the faces of Augustus' brood are realistic rather than idealized as was common. One wall contains a swag reminiscent of Pergamon but greatly superior. I don't think Roman relief sculpture ever exceeded this work in either skill or beauty of form. Perhaps, Mal can find images of the Ara Pacis for us to examine.

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2003 - 06:07 am
"One failing of Zeus is the youthful readiness with which he falls in love. Not having created women, he admires them as wonderful beings, bearing even to the gods the inestimable gifts of beauty and tenderness. He finds it beyond him to resist them.

"Hesiod draws up a long list of the divine amours and their glorious offspring. His first mate is Dionne, but he leaves her in Epirus when he moves to Thessalian Olympus. There his first wife is Metis, goddess of measure, mind, wisdom. Gossip says that her children will dethrone him. Therefore he swllows her, absorbs her qualities, and becomes himself the god of wisdom. Metis is delivered of Athena within him, and his head has to be cut open that Athena may be born.

"Lonely for loveliness, he takes Themis for his mate, and begets by her the twelve Hours. Then he takes Eurynome, and begets the three Graces -- then Mnemosyne, and engenders the nine Muses -- then Leto, and fathers Apollo and Artemis -- then his sister Demeter, and has Persephone -- finally, having sown his wild oats, he weds his sister Hera -- makes her Queen of Olympus, and receives from her Hebe, Ares, Hephaestus, and Eileithyia.

"But he does not get along well with Hera. She is as old a god as he, and more honored in many states. She is the patron deity of matrimony nd motherhood, protectress of the marriage tie. She is prim and grave and virtuous, and frowns upon his escapades. Moreover, she is an excellent shrew.

"He thinks of beating her, but finds it easier to console himself with new amours. His first mortal mate is Niobe. His last is Alemena, who is descended from Niobe in the sixteenth generation.

"He loves also, with Greek impartiality, the handsome Ganymede, and snatches him up to be his cupbearer on Olympus."

Zeus, the Don Juan. I wonder what this is telling us of Greek attitudes or view of life, at least in ancient times.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 23, 2003 - 08:39 am
It sounds to me as if what was good for the Zeus was good for any Ancient Greek gander.

Below is a link to a page about Ancient Greek Marriage.

ANCIENT GREEK MARRIAGE

Malryn (Mal)
January 23, 2003 - 08:45 am
ARA PACIS Click small images to see larger ones

ARA PACIS and more pictures

Shasta Sills
January 23, 2003 - 10:01 am
MaryPage, I used to live in Arizona, and the Indians really do load themselves with turquoise. The tourists go out there and buy all that turquoise jewelry and when they get back home, they find they can't wear it with their own clothes. It doesn't look right. One of the things that amazed me about that trek from Africa was that they should end up in the frozen wastes of Alaska. Why go so far?

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2003 - 10:09 am
Any reactions to any of Durant's previous remarks?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2003 - 10:18 am
There have been suggestions to close out The Life of Greece for lack of interest and participation. Your thoughts, please?

Robby

MaryPage
January 23, 2003 - 11:14 am
Please say it is not so!

SASHA, it was 30,000 years ago before they got to the colder climates, and they were warmer then. Also, they were still hunter gatherers, and found it difficult to abide living in groups much larger than 24 people!

ROBBY, we are Not to give up on Ancient Greece! MAL, I love that wedding site.

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2003 - 11:24 am
I suppose one way to counteract that would be not only to participate more often, sticking to the topic of Ancient Greece, but to invite some of our Senior Net friends to occasionally visit.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 23, 2003 - 11:24 am
You close this Life of Greece discussion, Robby Iadeluca, and I won't give you this hot cup of cocoa to warm you up on this blustery winter day.

Mal

Bubble
January 23, 2003 - 01:14 pm
Today I invited two people from Missouri, interested in ancient history, to come and visit us here.



Sorry about posting seldom lately. I have problems keep up with the reading and thinking fast enough to post. Timetable is a bit crowded at the moment. It is not lack of interest, you can be sure. If this discussion closes, I will rear my clothing and be in mourning. B.

moxiect
January 23, 2003 - 01:34 pm
Robby

If you close out this dicussion how will I ever learn anything! geez!

North Star
January 23, 2003 - 02:03 pm
I've just been lurking but enjoying all the information.

Bubble
January 23, 2003 - 02:47 pm
Zeus eternally falling in love and yearning for new younger and more beautiful girls. It was probably well accepted then? Even today in some societies it is still considered permissible even of old bachelors and would be scandalous if it was the other way round. At least in Greek mythology both gods and goddesses "made merry". There was no taboo either for Zeus to marry first one sister, then the next one; no incest laws for him.

tooki
January 23, 2003 - 05:08 pm
"Good for the Zeus, good for any ancient Greek gander." Too much! Because of that outrageous pun I'll try to be here and not be snotty, if you promise not to close. It seems to me that those randy gods, goddesses, and ancient Greeks prized beauty, truth, and art - but didn't seem to take "life" all that seriously. From Homer on life seemed not too valuable. Sort of easy come, easy go. I just bumped into Fernand Braudel, an influencial French historian. Anybody read his "Memory and the Mediterranean," which deals with its importance to history? Very pertinent to this study, I think.

MaryPage
January 23, 2003 - 06:35 pm
Note the statement: "the enthronement of Zeus as Father God over all gods represents the victory of the patriarchal principle." on page 178. And my new word of the week is apotropaic, on page 179, which I find means "intended to ward off evil."

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2003 - 06:39 pm
Who are all you people I haven't heard from for so long??!!

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 23, 2003 - 07:06 pm
Robby - I will post in this discussion when I feel I can contribute to the conversation but right now, I don't have anything to say, sorry.

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2003 - 07:09 pm
Hi, Eloise! The gang's all here.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 23, 2003 - 08:47 pm
Robby, please don't close this forum. I read even if I do not post often.

Men created the Greek gods, and gave them their own desires and dreams, with a vivid imagination thrown in for good measure. Of all the gods we have encountered in SOC, the Greek gods are by far the most human in nature, and their stories the most interesting. The fact that they placed many of their gods on earth, and not all in the unknown heavens, probably made them more acceptable to the Greeks. They could certainly see the storms at sea, and accept a god who controlled those depths.

Greek history and mythology was embraced by the west, and you were not considered educated without some study of its history. Today it is no longer taught as it once was, and our society as a whole is ignorant of most history that did not happen in their lifetime.

We have access to more information than any society on earth thus far with television, millions of books, newspapers, magazines, computers, and yet the current knowledge of history by the population as a whole is woefully lacking.

Not in this group though, I learn each time I come here from the posters, not just Durant.

......

Justin
January 23, 2003 - 10:52 pm
Mal showed us an image of Gaia that came from the Roman Ara Pacis- The Augustan Altar of Peace. I followed that up with a description of the Ara Pacis in which I represented an image of the Augustan family as a sculptural relief in the Hellenistic style and the images of the family as realistic. Mal folowed up with images of the Ara Pacis in which the sculptural relief was described as Classical and the figures as idealistic. You probably did not notice the difference. I raise the issue to show you that classical scholars are not of one mind about these things. There is room for disagreement. Arguments have been made for both points of view. I side with the Classical Hellenists. The one who wrote Mal's argument is on the other side. Disagreements of this kind will crop up from time to time and I will try to keep you apprised when they occur.

Justin
January 23, 2003 - 10:57 pm
Here we are in the middle of a classical Greek symposium- a conversation with no triviality and you, Robby, suggest we stop. What are you, some kind of nut? Mal, don't give him the hot cocoa till he repents his sin.

Bubble
January 24, 2003 - 12:48 am
Mary Page: get an apotropaic camea for SoC so Robby forget entirely about that daff notion of closing down? This is to go on and on and on....



Does "camea" exists in English? Like a written "amulet".

3kings
January 24, 2003 - 01:39 am
Close the discussion on SoC ? How uncivilised is that! This folder has far more vitality than many others. What else am I going to do, when at the end of the day, and tired of TV, I wander in here, knowing that I will find interesting and intelligent posts about great events and ideas from the past.

Please everyone, don't stop. Take a break if you feel weary, ROBBY, but let others soldier on. You will be warmly welcomed back, when refreshed, you return to the fray-- Trevor.

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2003 - 05:20 am
OK - OK - I get the picture!!

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2003 - 05:21 am
Trevor, Fifi:--

Good to hear from you two.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2003 - 05:30 am
And so Durant very happily continues:--

"It was natural that so fertile a father as Zeus should have some distinguished children. When Athena was born in full development and armament from the head of Zeus, she provided the literature of the world with one of its most hackneyed similes. She was an appropriate goddess for Athens, consoling its maids with her proud virginity -- inspiring its men with martial ardor -- and symbolizing for Pericles the wisdom that belonged to her as the dauthter of Metis and Zeus. When Pallas the Titan tried to make love to her, she slew him, and added his name to hers as a warning to other suitors.

"To her Athens dedicated its loveliest temple and its most splended festival."

I sort of think that there may be a reaction here to Athena's "independence."

The "hackneyed simile?" -- I plead ignorance regarding that.

Robby

Bubble
January 24, 2003 - 06:20 am
Strange that in French for someone haughty the expression is "il se croit sorti de la cuisse de Jupiter" he believes himself issued from Jupiter's thigh. I thought that was how Athena was born.

tooki
January 24, 2003 - 07:39 am
It goes something like this: "Like Athena, sprung full grown from the head of Zeus." I don't remember where it's orginally from, probably Shakespeare. It sure is hackneyed, even if it is used more aa a metaphor than a simile!

Malryn (Mal)
January 24, 2003 - 07:50 am
ATHENA, GODDESS OF WISDOM AND WAR

tooki
January 24, 2003 - 08:13 am
Athena springing full grown from the head of Zeus is used, in various kinds of writing, as a methphor for a "eureka" moment. "Eureka," is what Archimedes said when he discovered a method of determining the purity of gold in King Hiero"s crown. It is the motto of California.

MaryPage
January 24, 2003 - 09:30 am
Fascinating! Athena (Minerva) became my favorite god back when I was in 9th grade and took Ancient History, but the site MAL found for us has much more information than I can remember ever reading before. TOOKI, thanks for your valuable comments. BUBBLE, per your suggestion, and with the assistance of MAL's artistic gifts, we are now all wearing large hollow cyber medallions made of gold and hanging around our necks on thick gold chains. Sealed inside each is a written incantation guaranteed to work apotropaically. Ha!

Shasta Sills
January 24, 2003 - 09:57 am
It seems incongruous to me that the Greeks came up with all that beautiful philosophy, serene architecture, and realistic sculpture, and then produced such a harem-scarem set of gods. I always think they should have been able to produce better gods than that. Morality was not a requirement for Greek gods. Maybe gods represented to them the chaotic aspects of life--the instincts and emotions that are beyond the control of reason.

MaryPage
January 24, 2003 - 10:33 am
I think for the word "god", where the Greeks were concerned, we might substitute the word "person epitomizing an action known to humans." What I am trying to say is, I think they made up their gods to explain why people did the things they do, both good and bad.

Fifi le Beau
January 24, 2003 - 10:52 am
Can't get to Greece, and would like to see an exact replica of the Parthenon and a 42 foot statue of Athena, then come to Nashville, Tennessee. Below is a link to the Parthenon, Nashville. Click on History on the left side for more information.

The park with the Parthenon at its center, was a favorite haunt for students when I was in school there.

Parthenon

......

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2003 - 11:58 am
Fifi, that is a stupendous project in Nashville. I read some of the side links but am still not sure why Nashville chose the Parthenon as opposed to so many other items of antiquity.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2003 - 12:08 pm
"More widely worshiped than Athena was her comely brother Apollo, bright deity of the sun, patron of music, poetry, and art -- founder of cities -- maker of laws -- god of healing and father of Asclepius, "far-darting" archer and god of war -- successor to Gaea and Phoebe at Delphi as the holiest oracle of Greece. From Phoebe he took the name Phoebus, 'inspired.'

"A god of the growing crops, he received tithe offerings at harvest time, and in return, he radiated his golden warmth and light from Delos and Delphi to enrich the soil. Everywhere he was associated with order, measure, and beauty.

"Whereas in other cults there were strange elements of fear and superstition, in the worship of Apollo, and in his great festivals at Delphi and Delos, the dominant note was the rejoicing of a brilliant people in a god of health and wisdom, reason and song."

Robby

Justin
January 24, 2003 - 08:15 pm
Eureka is a city in Northern California. I don't know what the State motto is but if I had to guess I'd say it is" Keep it Clean".

Justin
January 24, 2003 - 08:21 pm
According to Durant, the olympic gods were the salvation of the rich and famous- the aristocrats. The great middle class went for the mystery cults which begin as we finish this set of quotes with Dionysus.

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2003 - 09:18 pm
"A thoroughly human figure in this pantheon was the master craftsman of Olympus, that lame Hephaestus whom the Romans knew as Vulcan. At first he seems a pitiful and ridiculous figure, this insulted and injured Quasimodo of the skies. In the end our sympathies are with him rather than with the clever and unscrupulous gods who maltreat him.

"Perhaps in early days, before he became so human, he had been the leaping spirit of the fire and the forge. In the Homeric theogony he is the son of Zeus and Hera. Other myths assure us that Hera, jealous of Zeus's unaided delivery of Athena, gave birth to Hephaestus without the aid of any male. Seeing him to be ugly and weak, she cast him down from Olympus. He found his way back, and built for the gods the many mansions in which they dwelt.

"Though his mother had dealt so cruely with him, he showed her all kindness and respect, and defended her so zealously in one of her quarrels with Zeus that the great Olympian seized him by the leg and hurled him down to the earth.

"A whole day Hephaestus fell. At last he landed on the island of Lemnos, and hurt his ankle. Certainly thereafter he was painfully lame. Again he found his way back to Olympus.

"In his resounding workshops he built a mighty anvil with twenty huge bellows, made the shield and armor of Achilles, statues that moved of their own accord, and other very wonderful things. The Greeks worshiped him as the god of all metal trades -- then of all handicrafts, and pictured the volcanoes as the chimneys of his subterranean forges.

"It was his misfortune that he married Aphrodite, for it is difficult for beauty to be virtuous. Learning of her affair with Ares, Hephaestus fashioned a trap that fell upon the lovers as they loved, and then the limping deity had his lame revenge by bringing his fellow gods to look in laughter upon the bound divinities of love and war."

Hard to believe that they were immortal gods, as it sounds just like a soap opera.

Robby

tooki
January 24, 2003 - 10:04 pm
Perhaps the Gods and their stories seem haphazard and disorderly because we have no one source for them. That is, information about them is found in all kinds of Greek sources, starting with Homer, going to Hesoid, Plato, and etc. This scattered information has been garnered by classical historians since, I suppose, the Renaissance, leading us to believe in the coherance of the stories. Here is a site that gives images and "texts" that mention each God. (At least I hope this is a clickable site!) The Olympians

Justin
January 25, 2003 - 12:31 am
Where did the idea for a virgin and mother combination come from? One source ( we have seen several in earlier civilizations), is Artemis, who was the ideal of Greek girlhood, athletic, graceful and chaste. At the same time she was the patroness of women in childbirth-the goddess of motherhood and fertility.

Durant says, that the Christian church found it wise, in the fifth century CE, to attach the remnants of this cult to Mary and to transform the festival of Artemis into the feast of the Assumption. In such ways the old is preserved in the new.

Ideas we saw in India, ideas about immortality of the body and of the soul we saw again in Egypt and now see in Greece. In the Greek mystery cults the soul goes to Hades for punishment for a brief time and is then assigned to another body. Reassignment continues until the soul has found a sinless body to work with.

Christianity later adopted the idea of an immortal soul which is punished severely if the body it inhabited was a sinful body. The punishment continues into infinity. If the body it inhabited was mildly sinful, the soul goes to Purgatory, a place of temporary punishment.

On the last day all bodies are reincarnated and judged according to their desserts. No ideas are completely lost or discarded. They are simply revamped and used over and over again. Ideas we saw in India, Egypt, and now in Greece, will reappear in future civilizations and in the next Durant volume.

Bubble
January 25, 2003 - 05:05 am
It is so much soap opera that Offenbach used them in his Tragi-comic operettes. Try reading the translation of the lyrics if you cannot hear them in French. It is much fun. The story of La belle Helene (of Troye) for example. I discovered not long ago his Christophus Columbus.

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 06:53 am
Thank you for the link, Tooki. It gives us some good mini-biographies of a long list of gods and goddesses.

Justin, speaking of the progress of various civilizations, tells that "No ideas are completely lost or discarded."

Makes me wonder if any ideas that were created by our Western Civilization (if indeed, any were) will be followed in some modified form 500 years from now.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 07:05 am
Click HERE to hear two minutes of music taken from Offenbach's "Orpheus in the Underworld." Some of you may be surprised to hear, not the serious music one might expect from a story about the nether world, but a very familiar tune used for decades to accompany a row of leg-kicking dancing beauties on the stage.

Click where it says "Midi file (Orpheus)"

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 25, 2003 - 07:10 am
Robby - "Makes me wonder if any ideas that were created by our Western Civilization (if indeed, any were) will be followed in some modified form 500 years from now."

What ideas were created by the Western Civilization? Nothing is ever lost, ideas least of all because, is the brain different than it was at the beginning? Modern scientific advances would be considered primitive by Oriental standards. Some areas of the brain has yet to change from what it was when man was created. Sciences and phylosophy just took another form making Western civilization think that they invented it all.

Éloïse

Bubble
January 25, 2003 - 07:20 am
Robby, how strange, I have always associate this can-can with La Vie Parisienne and not Orpheus.

I will have to find that old four tracks tape and listen to it again! the music is to be savored as much as the lyrics, you are right.

I can just see people ten generations from now, finding records from SN and when reading this discussion so as to decide if we were still primitive believing to be civilized!

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 07:23 am
"Ares (Mars) was never distinguished for intelligence or subtlety. His business was war, and even the charms of Aphrodite could not give him the thril that came to him from lusty and natural killing. Homer calls him 'the curse of men,' and tells with pleasure how Athena laid him low with a stone. 'He covered, as he lay, seven acres of the field.'

"Hermes (Mercury) is more interesting. In origin he is a stone, and from the cult of sacred stones his worship is derived. The stages of his evolution are still visible. Then he is the tall stone placed upon graves, or he is the daimon, or spirit, in this stone. Then he is the boundary stone or its god, marking and guarding a field. Because his function there is also to promote fertility, the phallus becomes one of his symbols.

Then he is the herm or pillar -- with carved head, uncarved body, and prominent male member -- which was placed before all respectable houses in Athens. We shall see how the mutilation of these hermae on the eve of the expedition against Syracuse provided the proximate cause for the ruin of Alcibiades and Athens.

"Again he is the god of wayfarers and the protector of heralds. Their characteristic staff, or caduceus, is one of his favorite insignia. As god of travelers he becomes a god of luck, trade, cunning, and gain, therefore an inventor and guarantor of measures and scales, a patron saint of perjurers, embezzlers, and thieves.

"He is himself a herald, bearing the billets and decrees of Olympus from god to god or man, and he moves on winged sandals with the speed of an angry wind. His running-about gives him a lithe and graceful form, and prepares him for Praxiteles. As a swift and vigorous youth he is the patron saint of athletes, and his shamelessly virile image has a place in every palaestra. As herald he is the god of eloquence. As celestial interpreter he is the first of a long hermeneutical line. One of the 'Homeric' Hymns tells how, in his youth, he stretched strings across a tortoise shell, and so invented the lyre.

"Finally, it comes his turn to appease Aphrodite. Their offspring, we are told, is a delicate hermaphrodite, sharing their charms and named from their names."

Hermes (Mercury) -- all things to all people.

Robby

Fifi le Beau
January 25, 2003 - 09:28 am
Durant writes......

"Ares (Mars) was never distinguished for intelligence or subtlety. His business was war

What a fitting description of those who promote war. Of all the ancient gods we have encountered, this one seems never to be destined to the dust bin of history.

Civilization has progressed so that no one would use a fertility god to conceive, science has made that obsolete.

We have progressed in food production through science so that we no longer use superstition and god worship to feed ourselves.

The gods of war seem never to have left mans consciousness, and science has worked to make them more powerful than ever. In this area we are no more civilized than the ancient Greeks we are reading about.

Give me a leader who prefers the charms of women to war!

......

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 09:36 am
Fifi:--Is it your thought that Mankind would have made greater progress with Aphrodite as its guiding light?

Robby

tooki
January 25, 2003 - 10:03 am
Comparing western and eastern thought is difficult, at least for me, because of our "western" habit (or way of thinking) of separating knowledge of "reality" into three distinct, often conflicting, areas of thought: scientific, religious, and philosophical. "Eastern" thought, very differently, seeks to describe a "total reality," which has scientific, religious and philosophical aspects, each part of the total vision. Because of these differences, comparing them often seems to me like the old apples and oranges routine.

Shasta Sills
January 25, 2003 - 10:56 am
As Justin points out, old ideas keep being recycled into new forms. Has Western civilization produced any new ideas? If I knew anything about science, I could probably answer that. Because that's where the new ideas are coming from. The efforts to understand life that were originally made by religion and philosophy have been taken over by science.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 25, 2003 - 11:11 am
Does that mean that people in the West are wired differently than in the East? How can a human brain be so different. Only their spirituality, philosophy, and culture are different. To me there can only be one "reality" that Western Civilization still has to learn from the East. It is a "total reality"

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 11:14 am
"Only late in his career was Dionysus received into Olympus. In Thrace, which gave him as a Greek gift to Greece, he was the god of liquor brewed from barley, and was known as Sabazius. In Greece he became a god of wine, the nourisher and guardian of the vine. He began as a goddess of fertility, became a god of intoxication, and ended as a son of god dying to save mankind.

"Many figures and legends were mingled to make his myth. The Greeks thought of him as Zagreus, 'the horned child' borne to Zeus by his daughter Persephone. He was the best beloved of his father, and was seated beside him on the throne of heaven. When the jealous Hera incited the Titans to kill him, Zeus, to disguise him, changed him into a goat, then a bull. In this form, nevertheless, the Titans captured him, cut his body into pieces, and boiled them in a caldron. Athena, like another Trelawney, saved the heart, and carried it to Zeus. Zeus gave it to Semele, who, impregnated with it, gave to the god a second birth under the name of Dionysus."

Talk about labor pains??!!

Robby

Bubble
January 25, 2003 - 11:58 am
Would that be him dancing with the satyrs, half goats and half man?

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 01:22 pm
"Mourning for Dionysus' death, and joyful celebration of his resurrection, formed the basis of a ritual extremely widespread among the Greeks. In springtime, when the vine was bursting into blossom, Greek women went up into the hills to meet the reborn god. For two days they drank without restraint, and like our less religious bacchanalians, considered him witless who would not lose his wits.

They marched in wild procession, led by Maenads, or mad women, devoted to Dionysus. They listened tensely to the story they knew so well -- of the suffering, death, and resurrection of their god. As they drank and danced they fell into a frenzy in which all bonds were loosed. The height and center of their ceremony was to seize upon a goat, a bull, sometimes a man (seeing in them incarnations of the god) -- to tear the live victim to pieces in commemoration of Dionysus' dismemberment -- then to drink the blood and eat the flesh in a sacred communion whereby, as they thought, the god would enter them and possess their souls.

"In that divine enthusiasm -- (from entheos, 'a god within' -- enthusiasm originally meant possession by a god) -- they were convinced that they and the god became one in a mystic and triumphant union. They took his name, called themselves, after one of his titles, Bacchoi, and knew that now they would never die. Or they termed their state an ectasis, a going out of their souls to meet and be one with Dionysus. Thus they felt freed from the burden of the flesh -- they acquired divine insight -- they were able to prophesy -- they were gods.

"Such was the passionate cult that came down from Thrace into Greece like a medieval epidemic of religion, dragging one region after another from the cold and clear Olympians of the state worship into a faith and ritual that satisfied the craving for excitement and release -- the longing for enthusiasm and possession, mysticism and mystery.

"The priests of Delphi and the rulers of Athens tried to keep the cult at a distance, but failed. All they could do was to adopt Dionysus into Olympus -- Hellenize and humanize him -- give him an official festival -- and turn the revelry of his worshipers from the mad ecstasy of wine among the hills into the stately processions, the robust songs, and the noble drama of the Great Dionysia.

"For a while they won Dionysus over to Apollo, but in the end Apollo yielded to Dionysus' heir and conqueror, Christ."

The above is a most powerful passage. Whatever our particular personal beliefs, Durant's comments help us to see how cultures follow cultures and religions merge into each other. I found it necessary to read this two or three times and each time caught something I hadn't previously noticed.

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
January 25, 2003 - 01:50 pm
The dictates of cult seems to have changed from orgies and bloody sacrifices to ritual processions with singing and dancing then to more humane ceremony with less bloody symbols, all keeping the background of resurrection. it is such a powerful tool, this idea of survival.

Shasta Sills
January 25, 2003 - 04:04 pm
Nietzsche was intrigued by those two themes in Greek religion-- Apollo, the god of reason, and Dionysus, the god of instincts. He dealt with this dichotomy all the time in his thinking. As best I could figure out, he preferred Dionysus; but with Nietzsche, you can never be quite sure.

robert b. iadeluca
January 25, 2003 - 04:08 pm
Shasta, is THIS what you were referring to?

Robby

tooki
January 25, 2003 - 09:47 pm
Dionysian/Apollonian; Ying/Yang; Romanticism/Classicism; Western separateness/Eastern wholeness. All are examples of the duality of our consciousness. Maybe evolution, which isn't finished with us yet, erred in the early stages and didn't do an adequate job on some of the hard wiring. Instead of the ability to see, perceive, and understand things clearly and whole, we are, as it were, peering through a glass darkly, spending our lives trying to understand what we see. Some of us are Dionysians; some of us are Apollonians. Some of us try to be both.

Justin
January 25, 2003 - 09:52 pm
We have seen over and over again the merging of religious ideas in each new culture. This time it is the ideas of the cult of Dionysus that merge with the cult of Christ.

The god-man is resurected after a horible death. His suffering, death, and resurection are celebrated by the faithful. The flesh of the god is ingested symbolically through a goat and the god's blood is drunk in a holy communion thereby uniting one with God.

These elements as well as others were taken over by the Christian cult and offered as part and parcel of Christ's story. Who ever wrote Mathew, Mark, and John was well aware of the Dionysian ideas and may perhaps have been an initiate of that cult before or while contributing to the new Christian cult. It looks to me as though they brought these things over "whole cloth". In the next volume it will be interesting to see how the Durants handle this transferance.

Justin
January 25, 2003 - 10:07 pm
The characteristics of the Dionysian cult are not secreted from the general public, but the religious faithful seem unaware of the material. Among the faithful I think there is a great tendency to believe that the Christian ideas appeared suddenly, out of nowhere, sometime between 7BCE and the apostolic age.

I wonder if the subject is covered in World History classes. Teachers might duck it because of the religious implications in the material. That would be unfortunate and a breach of academic honesty.

Bubble
January 26, 2003 - 02:57 am
No matter how similar they seem with some of todays beliefs, the rites of the Dionysian cult were always described in History and Classical classes as a pagan practice and nothing more. In the mission school where I received all my education to the end of Highschool, even the sources with Judaism were toned down. Most of my school mates considered their faith a revelation. But that is also common of all great religions today: starting with a revelation.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2003 - 06:09 am
The GREEN quotes above move us on - - -

"The first stage in Greek religion was probably of Pelasgo-Mycenaean origin -- the second probably Achaeo-Dorian -- the third Egypto-Asiatic.

"The first was most popular among the poor, the second among the well to do, the third in the lower middle class. The first predominated before the Homeric age, the second in it, the third after it. By the time of the Periclean Enlightenment, the most vigorous element in Greek religion was the mystery.

"In the Greek sense a mystery was a secret ceremony in which sacred symbols were revealed, symbolic rites were performed, and only initiates were the worshipers. Usually the rites represented or commemorated, in semidramatic form, the suffering, death, and resurrection of a god -- pointed back to old vegetation themes and magic -- and promised the initiate a personal immortality."

I find most interesting the fact that various "stages of religion" were practiced according to class. I look back at my childhood days in a small town. I didn't realize it then but now looking back as an adult (and without mentioning specific denominations), I see that the congregations of the specific churches were, indeed, divided up by class. The congregation of the "upper class" church might have realized this and, perhaps, gloried in it but I doubt if the "lower class congregation" had any inkling of the division. Sunday was, in fact, "segregation day" and I am referring to an all-white community. We were a Northern town which had no blacks in it whatsoever.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 26, 2003 - 08:06 am
Robby, you sure are right about the division of churches according to class. In Protestantism in my New England hometown, a city of about 30,000 people when I was growing up, there was real segregation, now that I think about it.

The liberal church to which my family belonged was not even recognized because the Council of Churches would not accept it as a member. The reason? This religion does not believe in the Trinity or the deification of Jesus Christ, and it believes there is no Hell. Not only that! In our particular church, we swapped pulpits with the Rabbi of a synogogue from time to time. We were outcasts, and not even considered when it came to the class list. I had sung or played the piano in most of the Protestant churches in town, and to me our service seemed not at all extreme; rather, it seemed very, very traditional and much like the others at that time.

The lowest of the low in this segregation pecking order was the Black church, which had few members because the Black population in my hometown was very small at the time. The church Black people went to was across the street which ran in back of my church. I am ashamed to say I never set foot in it. Of course, if I'd dared to go in to a service, the aunt and uncle who raised me would have been furious.

Mal

Bubble
January 26, 2003 - 08:37 am
Here not only do the Sepharadim originally expulsed from Spain by the Inquisition) and the Eshkenazim (from Russian, German, Polish East Europe origin) worship in different temples and according to different rites and melodies, but each country of origin will also have its proper synagogue and congregation. We have probably over 30 of them in this town, each thinking themselves better or holier than the neighboring one.



The Sepharadim see themselves as the underdogs because they come from a less educated country usually, and the older generation, principally those of Northern Africa, speak Arabic which here has especially now bad connotations . They are usually more credule and given to believe in superstitions and miracles happening on the tombs of venerated rabbis. Their voices for elections are being "bought" by promises from the various religious parties against a secularisation of the state. It is a very sorry situation.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2003 - 01:12 pm
Apparently, according to Mal and Bubble, class distinction is not a new thing, even between religions.

How many times have we said in this forum -- "the more things change, the more they remain the same."

Robby

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 02:41 pm
I grew up in a town of 50,000 people. It was across the river from New York City. It was a port town where luxury liners docked and commercial shipping was unloaded. There were four classes of people in town- Germans, Irish, Italians and others. Each had a church. The German church people thought they were better than the Irish and the Irish thought they were better than the Italians. There was very little integration among the churches. Exclusivity was the rule.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2003 - 03:04 pm
"The mysteries in Eleusis were of pre-Achaean origin, and appear to have been originally an autumn festival of plowing and sowing. A myth explained how Demeter, rewarding the people of Attica for their kindness to her in her wanderings, established at Eleusis her greaatest temple, which was destroyed and rebuilt many times during the history of Greece.

"Under Solon, Peisistratus, and Pericles the festival of Demeter at Eleusis was adopted by Athens, and raised to higher elaboration and pomp. In the Lesser Mysteries, held near Athens in the spring, candidates for initiation underwent a preliminary purification by self-immersion in the waters of the Ilissus.

"In September the candidates and others walked in grave but happy pilgrimage for fourteen miles along the Sacred Way to Eleusis, bearing at their head the image of the chthonian deity Iacchus.

"The procession arrived at Eleusis under torchlight, and solemnly place the image in the temple -- after which the day was ended with sacred dances and songs."

This reminds me of some of the festivals and pilgrimages I saw in rural parts of Europe.

Robby

Shasta Sills
January 26, 2003 - 03:54 pm
Robby, no, I had not seen that article, but it's a good article. I printed it out to put with my notes.

If Justin had not pointed it out, I would NEVER have made any connection between Dionysus and Christ. I think of them as complete opposites, except for their deaths. It's kind of surprising that the Christians would have wanted to make any reference to the Dionysian cult. But it was a common practice for Christianity to absorb pagan customs and transform them. I always thought this was a very practical and effective thing to do, but then I always admire practicality and recycling.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2003 - 04:01 pm
Shasta:--In Post 96, Durant describes Christ as "Dionysis' heir and conqueror."

Robby

3kings
January 26, 2003 - 04:59 pm
Please excuse me if you feel I am being 'nosey', but I have been wondering about church attendance in the US. I get the impression that many posters here are regular attendees at your respective churches. I am wondering if this is true of the general populace?

I do not know what the percentage is, but I would be surprised if regular attenance here in NZ is much more that 20%. I also notice in political debate in the US, there seems to be frequent reference to God, some thing which is quite absent in NZ politics.

Robby, I am straying from the appointed path in asking this, but I ask to be excused this once. Now back to lurking, and learning more from the erudite folk here. Trevor.

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 05:32 pm
Three Kings.

Politicians in the US tend to pander to religious voters for obvious reasons. Damn few US politicians are the real article. Religion is just a sham for them that seems to work.

I can't speak for others but I am not a regular attendee. I have heard (but have no factual data), that attendance is down substantially from what it was twenty years ago. The Catholic priesthood has also diminished greatly in the same period and the current scandal is not helping to build their ranks one bit. It is the fundementalist protestant groups that are adding new members every day. Don't ask me the reason.

tooki
January 26, 2003 - 05:58 pm
There are many internet sites that give statistics, but, yes, church attendance in the United State is high. Not only that but many Americans believe in Angels, and the Angel industry thrives, figures, cards, and, what do you call those things? Ah, yes. Charms. Here is one site. I'm still learning. Mal might find others. University of Michigan

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 07:02 pm
Tooki; That's a wonderful site and the sponsor has an excellent reputation for social survey work. If one compares Russian church attendance at the beginning of the twentieth century with that currently it is easy to recognize the effect of Communism on religion. Stalin and his heirs literally wiped it out.

Three Kings: If church attendance in the US is as high as 44 percent of the population one can easily see the reason for political pandering.

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 07:18 pm
Fourteen miles is a long way to carry a heavy statue. Those Greeks must have truly believed to do that. I remember as a boy watching as men carried a statue of St Anne on her feast day for a half mile or so and back to her niche in a church.

People pinned dollar bills to banners that trailed from her at a time when a buck was really a buck. Pizzas about the size of a small saucer were very popular during the festival. They were called "Annie" pizzas.

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 07:32 pm
The third religious form in Greece was the mystical form. It came from Egypto-Asiatic sources. It is interesting that these mystical forms are the basis for Christianity. What that means, I think, is that, in the US where Christianity is a big thing, ancient Asian culture is deeply rooted in our society. The prevalence of Christianity is evidence of our oriental heritage.

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 07:46 pm
In the Greek sense, a mystery was a ceremony in which sacred symbols were revealed and symbolic rites performed. Usually the rites commemorated in semi dramatic form, the sufering, death and resurection of a god and promised personal immortality. Is this not what the Catholic Mass is about?

It is a ceremony commorating the Last Supper in which the initiate links with God through transubstantiation- the process by which bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ. One symbolically, eats the flesh and drinks the blood of the God, just as Dionysus' initiates did, in order to become one with the God.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2003 - 08:02 pm
"Besides providing a sense of orientation and insecurity in an insecure world, one of the functions of religion is to help satisfy the need to know where we come from and where we are going."

The preceding is an excerpt from Tooki's link to the University of Michigan study. I found it especially interesting when comparing it to the three primary questions in our Heading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2003 - 08:16 pm
"The Greater Mysteries lasted four more days. Those who had been purified with bathing and fasting were now admitted to the lesser rites. Those who had received such rites a year before were taken into the Hall of Initiation, where the secret ceremony was performed. The mystai, or initiates, broke their fast by participating in a holy communion in memory of Demeter, drinking a holy mixture of meal and water, and eating sacred cakes.

"What mystic ritual was then performed we do not know. The secret was well kept throughout antiquity, under penalty of death. Even the pious Aeschylus narrowly escaped condemnation for certain lines that might have given the secret away. The ceremony was in any case a symbolic play, and had a part in generating the Dionysian drama.

"Very probably the theme was the rape of Persephone by Pluto -- the sorrowful wandering of Demeter -- the return of the Maiden to earth -- and the revelation of agriculture to Attica. The summary of the ceremony was the mystic marriage of a priest representing Zeus with a priestess impersonating Demeter.

"These symbolic nuptials bore fruit with magic speed. It was soon followed, we are told, by a solemn announcement that 'Our Lady has borne a holy boy" and a reaped ear of corn was exhibited as symbolizing the fruit of Demeter's labor -- the bounty of the fields. The worshipers were then led by dim torchlight into dark subterranean caverns symbolizing Hades, and, again, to an upper chamber brilliant with light, representing, it appears the abode of the blessed.

"They were now shown, in solemn exaltation, the holy objects, relics, or icons that until that moment had been concealed. In this ecstasy of revelation, we are assured, they felt the unity of God, and the oneness of God and the soul. They were lifted up out of the delusion of individuality, and knew the peace of absorption into deity."

Many familiar concepts here.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 26, 2003 - 08:20 pm
"First they ignore you, then the laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."=== Mahatma Ghandi

MaryPage
January 26, 2003 - 09:08 pm
Without looking it up on the internet, I believe I keep reading about polls (huge numbers of which are constantly taking our national temperature) which ask Americans if they belong to and attend a house of worship. Something over 80% say they do.

Personally, I think it is image and tradition and habit. I think the true number is more like between 50% & 60% have a Faith and give lip service to it, but only 35% to 45% are true believers. I know there are many forms I encounter which ask my religious denomination or affliation. I sometimes leave the line blank, and sometimes put down Episcopalian. When checking into hospital, I answer to my affiliation as a courtesy. Should I suddenly be close to death, and no one around to answer for me, at least the resident rabbi or priest would not have to worry about this patient expiring without whatever prayers they elicit for their own. It is true I am nominally an Episcopalian and have done all the rites and passages that would make me a bonafide communicant, but it is also true I am an agnostic who only goes to church to mark family passages. The final truth is I have never, ever, put Agnostic down on a form. Any form. Do you think many people have? Perhaps so. I just don't know.

Justin
January 26, 2003 - 10:57 pm
Mary Page: I usually respond to requests to know my religious affiliation by saying, "none'. That means, I have no affiliation or it's none of your business. Take your pick.

One should be honest but not aggressive in response to such questions, especially when in hospital. Nothing would make me feel less happy in hospital than to have a minister stop by to chat about things we both know nothing about-the future.

That happened to me once in a Naval Hospital. The chap was a nice guy who left a pocket copy of the bible with me. I hurt him when I told him there plenty of atheists in fox holes. I was sorry I did that. It was his job to talk with me.

The bible he gave me is still with me. The more I read it the more convinced I became that there was something wrong with the worship of a God that ordered the killing of men, women, and children as vindictive punishment for being ignored.

3kings
January 27, 2003 - 01:15 am
TOOKI thank you for that site giving % of church attendance. Amazing the difference between Czech rep. & Slovakia. Or between Lithuania and Poland. The latter is a special case perhaps ( The Pope ) Seems NZ is unknown in American Universities.... LOL--- Trevor

Bubble
January 27, 2003 - 03:15 am
Nothing would make me feel less happy in hospital than to have a minister stop by to chat about things we both know nothing about-the future.

How right you are! But for Jewish people, there is no way out. Even if you do not believe, practice or if you live like a Gentile, the Rabbi will still stop by your bed: born a Jew, always a Jew! Getting married in a civil ceremony only or buried without the rites in a proper Jewish cemitery will have dire repercussions on the children. The Greeks were much more tolerant or was it carefree.

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2003 - 05:37 am
"In the age of Peisistratus the mysteries of Dionysus entered into the Eleusinian liturgy by a religious infection. The god Iacchus was identified with Dionysus as the son of Persephone, and the legend of Dionysus Zagreus was superimposed upon the myth of Demeter.

"But through all forms the basic idea of the mysteries remained the same -- as the seed is born again, so may the dead have renewed life -- and not merely the dreary, shadowy existence of Hades, but a life of happiness and peace.

"When almost everything else in Greek religion had passed away, this consoling hope, reunited in Alexandria with that Egyptian belief in immortality from which the Greek had been derived, gave to Christianity the weapon with which to conquer the Western world."

Robby

tooki
January 27, 2003 - 07:49 am
On page 189 the Durants say about the "Greater Mysteries, that "The ceremony was in any case a symbolic play." Apparently these "plays" survived and became known as "Medieval Mystery Plays." Here is a history: Medieval Mystery Plays Note that in the history of these plays, "The Church forbade the faithful during the early Centuries to attend the licentious representations of decadent paganism." "Decadent paganism?" I wonder what Shakespeare made of these plays?

tooki
January 27, 2003 - 07:59 am
Church Attendance in New Zealand

MaryPage
January 27, 2003 - 08:10 am
Does anyone understand the reference to Trelawney on page 187? "Athena, like another Trelawney, saved the heart...."

I looked it up in Google. Other than reminding me there is a professor in the school for wizards that Harry Potter attends by the name of Sibyll Trelawney (J.K. Rowling had so much fun with her names!), and there being a lot of places named Trelawney, and some actual people with that surname, I cannot find something that tells me to what the Durants referred here. Dying to know! One thing we may be certain of, the Durants wrote 60 years before Rowling!

I did not know Semele, either, but found this:


SEMELE


BUBBLE! There is your god who was born from Zeus's thigh! Dionysus!

TOOKI, you mentioned the trade in angels here in the U.S. being a sign of people's belief in them. I cannot speak for other angel lovers, but I do not now and never in my life, even as a toddler, have believed angels were real beings of any type whatsoever. I have just loved the concept, which is a totally different thing. Ergo, even though I collect what I refer to as "classical" angels, and own probably 50 or more, I am not a believer in them. Perhaps there are a lot more angel lovers who no more "believe" in them than they do Santa Claus.

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2003 - 08:25 am
"We find, in the age of the Argonauts, the obscure but fascinating figure of Orpheus, a Thracian who 'in culture, music, and poetry, far surpassed all men of whom we have a record' according to Diodorus. Very probably he existed, though all that we now know of him bears the marks of myth. He is pictured as a gentle spirit, tender, meditative, affectionate -- sometimes a musician, sometimes a reforming ascetic priest of Dionysus.

"He played the lyre so well, and sang to it so melodiously, that those who heard him almost began to worship him as a god. Wild animals became tame at his voice, and trees and rocks left their places to follow the sound of his harp. He married the fair Eurydice, and almost went mad when death took her.

He plunged into Hades, charmed Persephone with his lyre, and was allowed to lead Eurydice up to life again on condition that he should not look back upon her until the surface of the earth was reached. At the last barrier anxiety overcame him lest she should no longer be following. He looked back, only to see her snached down once more into the nether world.

"Thracian women, resenting his unwillingness to console himself with them, tore him to pieces in one of their Dionysian revels. Zeus atoned for them by placng the lyre of Orpheus as a constellation among the stars. The severed head, still singing, was buried at Lesbos in a cleft that became the site of a popular oracle. There, we are told, the nightingales sang with especial tenderness."

Even if we don't believe any of these tales, some of them are magnificent to read.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2003 - 08:28 am
On the other hand, MaryPage, there may be countless people who believe in the existence of angels. It is dangerous to make assumptions about the beliefs of others. (And I realize you said "perhaps.")

Robby

Bubble
January 27, 2003 - 08:31 am
Was it not Eurydice who was allowed to spend 6 months above ground and 6 months below afterwards?



This story inspired an oscar winning Brazilian film in Orpheo Negro, with a haunting music.



MaryPage, what about archangels? Gabriel among others? I believe his name is mentionned somewhere in the Holy Book.

moxiect
January 27, 2003 - 10:05 am
I am fascinated by all the various religious beliefs that are being discussed. Thanks, I am sure learning a great deal!

MaryPage
January 27, 2003 - 11:55 am
Naaaah, BUBBLE! The archangels especially are figments of imagination to me. If there really were angels, my fantasy makes them a combo of the Graces and the Muses and all loving Mothers. One angel per person, as a guide through this world.

I am fascinated by the evolution of religion from the beginnings of man gaining a conscious mind to this day. Did you notice the chief god and goddesses of the Greeks and Romans were both Good and Evil? Ditto the God of the Hebrews, for a while. Then Christianity made God Good, and caused an archangel to turn bad, turn against God, and take over this world for his Kingdom. Some call him the Prince of This World, some call him the Devil, some call him Satan. So interesting!

3kings
January 27, 2003 - 12:10 pm
MaryPage The Durant's referance to Trelawney might be from an incident in England. There is a poem about it I once was reqired to read at school. Seems there was a revolt led by a Cornishman

And shall Trelawney die,
There's a hundred thousand Cornishmen
Will know the reason why.

I have forgotten all else about the event-- Trevor

MaryPage
January 27, 2003 - 01:47 pm
Well, TREVOR! Please scrub your brain! That poem is just barely familiar to me, as well, but unlike you, I had forgotten it. Off to my English History books go I! HAS to have something to do with carving someone's heart out and delivering it to someone else. I think!

MaryPage
January 27, 2003 - 02:02 pm
And shall Trelawney die! And shall Trelawney die! There's twenty thousand Cornish lads Will know the reason why."

Well, I cannot think why he is the one, from what I can find thus far. Will dig deeper. This Trelawney was born 1650 in Cornwall and died 1721 in Chelsea. Was Bishop of the Church of England and was imprisoned, with other Protestant Bishops, by James I. He was not put to death.

MaryPage
January 27, 2003 - 02:08 pm
Aha! There was a Squire Trelawney in Robert Louis Stevenson's TREASURE ISLAND! So wonder if he is the one.

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2003 - 02:37 pm
"On the eighth of July, Percy Bysshe Shelley and Lt. Edward Williams were drowned off the coast of Livorno, a small town situated in Tuscany. Lord Byron, Leigh Lunt and Edward John Trelawny, attended by soldiers and the Health Officer went to the site of Shelley's grave to exhume his body for its cremation and return to England.



"It is easy to imagine Mr Trelawny as he sat dejectedly in one of the local cafes, much the worse for wear and well into the evening, painfully lifting his seventh cup to his weepy lips, his seared hands swathed in bandages, and dictating the following words to a friend: '. . .The lonely and grand genius that surrounded us so exactly harmonized with Shelley's genius, that I could imagine his spirit soaring over us. The sea, with the islands of Gorgona, Capraji, and Elba, was before us; old embattled watchtowers stretched along the coast, backed by the marble-crested Apennines glistening in the sun, picturesque from their diversified outlines, and not a human dwelling was in sight. As I thought of the delight Shelley felt in such scenes of loneliness and grandeur whilst living, I felt we were no better than a herd of wolves or pack of wild dogs, in tearing out his battered and naked body from the pure yellow sand that lay so lightly over it, to drag him back to the light of day; but the dead have no voice. . .' (Eyewitness to History, Edited by John Carey, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, Massachusetts 1988.)



"When at last, after an hour of digging in the general area of Shelley's grave, the spade went into the sand with a thud. They had found Shelley's skull. They then proceeded to exhume the body, by this time well along in its integration to the earth. Lord Byron went off to swim in the sea as he could hardly bear to look upon what had once been a beautiful form, and was now the decomposing remains of his beloved friend. This time Mr Trelawny had brought sufficient cuts of wood and was relieved that the poet's limbs remained attached to the trunk, unlike the experience they had suffered on the previous day in exhuming Lt. Edward William's body. Lord Byron had requested from Mr Trelawny to preserve the skull for him, but as Mr Trelawny had once seen Lord Byron use one as a drinking-cup, he was determined that Shelley's should not be profaned in such a manner.



"The funeral pyre was so fiercely hot that the iron contraption used for this purpose turned white with heat. Mr Trelawny watched in horrified fascination at what had become a ghastly symbol of a man's life, the brains bubbling away and the bones cracking and turning to ashes as all succumbed to the intense fire. That is, everything except for Shelley's heart, which remained intact! Mr Trelawny without thought of self or sense, suddenly reached in and seized the heart, lifting it from the cavity of fire and severely burning his hands in that mad act."

MaryPage
January 27, 2003 - 03:06 pm
MAL, you genius, you! That HAS TO BE IT! And here I have got my eyes streaming and stinging from hours of searching through all of Treasure Island on line to find out what happened to Squire Trelawney. Well, the Durants simply HAD to mean your Trelawney! It fits Perfectly! How DO you pull this stuff off?

Shasta Sills
January 27, 2003 - 03:58 pm
Mal always finds what she's looking for. She's the Sherlock Holmes of Cyberspace.

As for those polls that MaryPage was speaking of, I'm not sure how accurate they are. I suspect a lot of people are like me. If I'm asked if I belong to a church, I always say yes because I don't want anybody showing up at my door trying to convert me.

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2003 - 04:45 pm
I'm no genius, Mary Page. You said something about Trelawny and heart. That's all I needed.

Shasta, when I'm asked if I belong to a church, I say, "No." And I still have people at my door trying to sell me their particular brand of faith.

I can remember being in a hospital once. As always, I said I am not affiliated with any religion. One day a nice young man came by and said he was the pastor at the So and So church. We talked for a while, and he did not once mention religion, nor did I. I appreciated the visit.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2003 - 06:54 pm
Any reactions to Durant's comments in Post 130?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 27, 2003 - 07:07 pm
Pre-Raphaelite artist Dante Gabriel Rossetti's version of Persephone (Proserpine)

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2003 - 07:46 pm
"The reckless looseness of the Olympians was replaced by a strict code of conduct, and the mighty Zeus was slowly dethroned by the gentle figure of Orpheus, even as Yahweh was to be dethroned by Christ. A conception of sin and conscience -- a dualistic view of the body as evil and of the soul as divine -- entered into Greek thought. The subjugation of the flesh became a main purpose of religion, as a condition of the release for the soul.

"The brotherhood of Orphic initiates had no ecclesiastical organization and no separate life. They were distinguished by the wearing of white garments, the avoidance of flesh food, and a degree of asceticism not usually associated with Hellenic ways. They represented, in several aspects, a Puritan Reformation in the history of Greece. Their rites encroached more and more upon the public worship of the Olympian gods.

"The influence of the sect was extensive and enduring. Perhaps it was here that the Pythagoreans took their diet, their dress, and their theory of transmigration. It is worthy of note that the oldest Orphic documents now extant were found in southern Italy.

"Plato, though he rejected much in Orphism, accepted its opposition of body and soul, its puritan tendency, its hope of immortality. Part of the pantheism and asceticism of Stoicism may be traced to an Orphic origin.

"The Neo-Platonists of Alexandria possessed a large collection of Orphic writings, and based upon them much of their theology and their mysticism. The doctrines of hell, purgatory, and heaven -- of the body versus the soul -- of the divine son slain and reborn -- as well as the sacramental eating of the body and blood and divinity of the god -- directly or deviously influenced Christianity, which was itself a mystery religion of atonement and hope, of mystic union and release.

"The basic ideas and ritual of the Orphic cult are alive and flourishing amongst us today."

As Durant indicates, as we cover the changes occurring in the religion of Greece at that time, we are skirting close to the thinking and beliefs of many people in the world today, even some of those either participating or lurking in this particular discussion. It is not for your Discussion Leader to stifle academic inquiry and discourse, but I request simultaneously, as a matter of respect for every one here, that restraint be the order of the day.

Robby

tooki
January 27, 2003 - 10:02 pm
starring in Jean Cocteau's 1949 film,"Orpheus: The World of Reality vs Illusion." Although the Orpheus myth shows up in other contemporary art, I think this film well illustrates the continued vitality of his myth. Jean Cocteau was a surrealist poet and painter, among other things, who hung out with Picasso in Paris during the 1920s. Here is a review.







Orpheus

Justin
January 28, 2003 - 12:46 am
I have often wondered where Paul of Tarsus attained his distaste for intercourse with women. It is apparent that the message came from the Orphic cults. His message called for abstinence. Be as I am, he says,not once but several times. It is a call for the asceticism of orphism. Tarsus was a Greek city in Asia Minor during Paul's lifetime. Orphism must have been rife at the time.

Justin
January 28, 2003 - 01:09 am
Was the Pauline concept of an evil body and a divine soul original with him? Was his message inspired by God or did he acquire the idea from an Orphic cult in his home town or elsewhere in his travels?

If one is unaware of what came before one cannot assess the originality of ideas. Our oriental heritage is so evident in contemporary religious practices that one can not deny it. Christianity is clearly an evolutionary stage in religious development.

Christianity is certainly not the last stage in an evolutionary process. I wonder what the next iteration will look like?

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2003 - 06:22 am
"The chthonian gods received a gloomy ritual of appeasement and riddance, the Olympians a joyful ritual of welcome and praise. Neither form of ceremony required a clergyman. The father acted as priest for the family, the chief magistrate for the state.

"Life in Greece was not as secular as it has been described. Religion played a major part in it everywhere, and each government protected the official cult as vital to social order and political stability. But whereas in Egypt and the Near East the priesthood dominated the state, in Greece the state dominated the priesthood, took the leadership of religion, and reduced the clergy to minor functionaries in the temples.

"The property of the temples, in real estate, money, and slaves, was audited and administered by officials of the state. There were no seminaries for the training of priests. Anyone could be be quietly chosen or appointed priest if he knew the rites of the god. In many places the office was let out to the highest bidder.

"There was no hierarchy or priestly caste. The priests of one temple or state had usually no association with those of another. There was no church, no orthodoxy, no rigid creed. Religion consisted not in professing certain beliefs, but in joining in the official ritual. Any man might have his own creed provided that he did not openly deny or blaspheme the city's gods.

"In Greece church and state were one."

As I understand this, this is not the same as separation of church and state.

Robby

Bubble
January 28, 2003 - 06:28 am
I wonder how known is it that in Judaism, no ceremony or rite requires a rabbi: anyone knowing the ritual can officiate for a wedding , a burial, etc. as long as there is a quorum of males present; that is 10 males above the age of 13. Bubble

Justin
January 28, 2003 - 01:11 pm
Called a Minyon, Bubble?

Bubble
January 28, 2003 - 02:02 pm
Called a Minyan, yes. The prayer over a body, the Kaddish, cannot be said without it. Bubble

MaryPage
January 28, 2003 - 04:09 pm
I did know that, but then, I have studied Judaism and have a lot of Jewish friends. I understand there is no such thing as a priest or order of priests or priestly order or whatever you might call it in ISLAM. They have Imams, who, as I understand it, which may not be correct, are men who are very faithful and who are paid to look after the mosques and to make the call to the Faithful to come to prayer. Sort of religious cantors/janitors. Our newspapers and news magazines keep referring to "Moslem clerics", and I keep wondering to whom they refer. In most Islamic countries, church and state ARE one. Anyone can set themselves up as a leader, but they are a leader of both church (mosque) and government. I think our country choosing to have a separation of church and state is what made it possible for us women to campaign for sufferage. If it were a religious state we had to apply to, we would not have had the chance of the proverbial snowball in Hades.

Malryn (Mal)
January 28, 2003 - 04:19 pm
The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the U.S. Consitution. Why not?

Mal

Justin
January 28, 2003 - 06:14 pm
The first amendment provides power restrictions on the Federal Government. The establishment clause in that amendment prevents the government from making any law respecting religion. That is the measure providing for separation of Church and State.

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2003 - 06:52 pm
This link to an article in the New York Times concerning ANCIENT ROADS may be of interest to those participants here who have been with us throughout Our Oriental Heritage.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2003 - 08:33 pm
"The place of worship could be the domestic hearth, the municipal hearth in the city hall, some cleft in the earth for a chthonian deity, some temple for an Olympian god. The precincts of the temple were sacred and inviolable. Here the worshipers met, and here all pursued persons, even if tainted with serious crime, could find sanctuary.

"The temple was not for the congregation but for the god. There, in his home, his statue was erected, and a light burned before it which was not allowed to die. Often the people identified the god with the statue. They washed, dressed, and tended the image carefully, and sometimes scolded it for negligence. They told how, at various times, the statue had sweated, or wept, or closed its eyes.

"In the temple records a history was kept of the festivals of the god, and of the major events in the life of the city or group that worshiped him. This was the source and first form of Greek historiography."

If my memory serves correctly, in my earlier years a house of worship was always considered a sancturary and police or other authorities ordinarily would not enter to apprehend someone. Nowadays I am always reading about houses of worship being entered, those inside being arrested, and the church/temple even being burned to the ground.

Robby

moxiect
January 28, 2003 - 09:21 pm


Rob: Quoting from your post #157 "If my memory serves correctly, in my earlier years a house of worship was always considered a sancturary and police or other authorities ordinarily would not enter to apprehend someone. Nowadays I am always reading about houses of worship being entered, those inside being arrested, and the church/temple even being burned to the ground."

Did they not enter the house/temples of worship during WW2 and isn't in the cycle of history the Romans also entered them?

Justin
January 28, 2003 - 11:44 pm
While reading the current issue of Atlantic monthly I came across some church attendance statistics which I can share with you. The Michigan Survey group which is quite reliable said 44percent of adult americans attend church once per week and 53 % said religion was very important in their lives.

Voter News Service exit polls show 14% of voters attend services more than once per week and 14% never attend services. The VNS makes an interesting observation. Among the 14% who attend services more than once per week 63% favored Geo. Bush. Among the 14% who never attend services 61% favored Gore.

The populations are slightly different- voter polls vrs. general adult U.S. None the less it looks like 39% think once per week is enough to keep them out of trouble.

Bubble
January 29, 2003 - 02:37 am
Even in Roman times there was desecration of temples. Remember what happened to the temple of Jerusalem which was defiled with porcine products during the revolt of Bar Kohba and the story of the Maccabeens brothers, commemorated in Hanukah festival of lights. It was also destroyed twice.



Very interesting read, those ancient roads. If I am not wrong, it was from an airial picture they locate an ark on Mt Ararat and made sound/magnetic tracking on the ground to get its shape?
Isn't there still part of a Roman Via Apia visible and in use in Italy?

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2003 - 06:04 am
A friendly reminder that in this forum we try to stay away from bringing in the names of political figures.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2003 - 06:19 am
"Magic and masquerade, tableaux and dramatic representations might be part of a procession. In most cases the basic ritual was prescribed by custom, and every movement of it, every word of the hymns and prayers, was preserved in a book kept sacred by the family or the state. Rarely was any syllable or action altered, or any rhythm. The god might not like or comprehend the novelty.

"The living speech changed, the ritual speech remained as before. In time the worshipers ceased to understand the words they used, but the thrill of antiquity supplied the place of understanding. Often the ceremony outlasted even the memory of the cause tht had prompted it. Then new myths were invented to explain its establishment. The myth or creed might change, but not the ritual.

"Music was essential to the whole process, for without music religion would be difficult. Music generates religion as much as religion generates music. Out of the temple and processional chants came poetry and the meters that later adorned the robust profanity of Archilochus, the reckless passion of Sappho, and the scandalous delicacies of Anacreon."

Every movement, every word kept in a sacred book. Ritual speech being entirely different from everyday speech. Worshipers not understanding the words but responding to the "thrill of antiquity." Importance of music in religious celebration.

Any comments?

Robby

Bubble
January 29, 2003 - 06:41 am
Just one comment: this reminded me most vividly of grade 2 in primary school and my little girlfriends in class learning their cathechism little book by heart: question line and response under it, to be known by rote without a word changed. I used to help them memorize it and they were so jealous that it was not compulsory for me, the outcast. So often they misspoke the words too because the meaning was obscure for their age. But it was compulsory so as to reach the initiative stage of the "First communion". Then I was left wondering about the benefits of that initiation.
Bubble
An afterthought suddenly. The Jewish service was retransmitted on the radio every shabbat, (just like the messe would be on Sunday mornings) probably because there was only one sole rabbi for the whole of Congo and we were lucky enough he lived in our town Elisabethville. Did he allow it because it was a Gentile taping it? Here for the religious people radio and television are off limit for the whole of shabbat.

tooki
January 29, 2003 - 07:22 am
OK, then, the increasing complexity of Greek religion coincided with the Asian influence produced by Greek colonization of Asia Minor. Greek religion changed from the simplistic anthropomorphic Gods of the Iliad (around 800 BC) to the complex notions of religion in this chapter (circa 500 BC). From life after death as a cheerless prospect, in Homer, to the mysteries death as a renewed life of happiness and peace. Apparently, as the Greeks became more civilized, whatever that might mean, the sense of sin and need for cleansing became stronger. Does this seem the correct assessment of religious change to others here?

tooki
January 29, 2003 - 07:28 am
I didn't say religious development or evolution because I think of it as change only. I do not perceive of an end to religous change. To me, the words development and/or evolution seem to predict an end, whenever that might be.

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2003 - 07:35 am
"Apparently, as the Greeks became more civilized, whatever that might mean, the sense of sin and need for cleansing became stronger."

That phrase intrigues me, Tooki. What would be the correlation between being "cleansed" and being "civilized?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2003 - 08:11 am
"Often the ceremony outlasted even the memory of the cause that had prompted it." Aye, there's the rub.

Mal

moxiect
January 29, 2003 - 10:46 am
Apparantly each civilization embellished prior myths/legends to create a means as they understood how this world was created and as humans how we got here and what was/is needed to continue on.

Shasta Sills
January 29, 2003 - 02:45 pm
Robby, it means the more civilized you are, the more baths you take. No, seriously, don't you think the civilizing process always depends on control of the instincts. "Sin" is whatever society decides is detrimental to its progress. Adultery, for example, is a sin because it destroys the family unit, upon which society is based.

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2003 - 03:09 pm
So does death destroy the family unit. This is one big reason why I do not like war.

Mal

Shasta Sills
January 29, 2003 - 04:09 pm
Mal, you and me both. But Robby has reminded us gently not to mention the gentleman who made the speech last night, so he shall remain nameless.

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2003 - 04:42 pm
Shasta, what's going on in the world right now is not very different from what has gone on since written history was first chiseled out on rock tablets. That, for me, is what's so discouraging.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2003 - 05:50 pm
Very subtle, Shasta!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2003 - 06:34 pm
"Having reached the altar -- usually in front of the temple -- the worshipers sought with sacrifice and prayer to avert the wrath or win the aid of their god. As individuals they might offer almost anything of value -- statues, reliefs, furniture, weapons, caldrons, tripods, garments, pottery. When the gods could make no use of such articles the priests could.

"Armies might offer part of their spoils, as Xenophon's Ten Thousand did in their retreat. Groups would offer the fruits of the field, the vines or the trees. More often an animal appetizing to the god -- sometimes, on occasions of great need, a human being. Agamemnon offered Iphigenia for a wind. Achilles slaughtered twelve Trojan youths on the pyre of Patroclus. Human victims were hurled from the cliffs of Cyprus and Leucas to satiate Apollo. Others were presented to Dionysus in Chios and Tenedos. Themistocles is said to have sacrificed Persian captives to Dionysus at the battle of Salamis.

"The Spartans celebrated the festival of Artemis Orthia by flogging youths, sometimes to death, at her altar. In Arcadia Zeus received human sacrifice until the second century A.D. At Massalia, in time of pestilence, one of the poorer citizens was fed at public expense, clad in holy garments, decorated with sacred boughs, and cast over a cliff to death with prayers that he might bear punishment for all the sins of his people. In Athens it was the custom, in famine, plague, or other crisis, to offer to the gods, in ritual mimicry or in actual fact, one or more scapegoats for the purification of the city. A similar rite, mimic or literal, was annually performed at the festival of the Thargelia.

"In the course of time human sacrifice was mitgated by restricting its victims to condemned criminals, and dulling their senses with wine. Finally it was replaced by sacrifice of an animal.

"When, on the night before the battle of Leuctra (371 B.C.), the Boeotian leader Pelopidas had a dream that seemed to demand a human sacrifice at the altar as the price of victory, some of his councilors advised it, but others protested against it, saying 'that such a barbarous and impious obligation could not be pleasing to any Supreme Beings -- that typhons and giants did not preside over the world, but the general father of gods and mortals -- that it was absurd to imagine any divinities and powers delighting in slaughter and sacrifice of men.'"

I read the phrase:--"One of the poorer citizens was fed at public expense, clad in holy garments, decorated with sacred boughs, and cast over a cliff." And I wonder if our custom of a final meal for condemned prisoners (at public expense) comes down from this.

Robby

Justin
January 29, 2003 - 07:37 pm
Watch it, Robby, you are opening a death penalty discussion. I oppose it because we make mistakes in determining guilt. Rather than execute one innocent person I would rather pay to house the louse for life. That said, I'll add that I don't think there is a connection between adorning the victim for a religious death and feeding the condemned. The condemned is a prisoner who is entitled to be fed on a daily basis.

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2003 - 07:56 pm
What was quoted above, Robby, could have been written:
"One of the poorer citizens was fed at public expense, clad
in holy garments with a crown of thorns placed on his head,
and crucified."
Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 29, 2003 - 08:27 pm
The question is:--Have these current rituals -- final meal for instance -- come down to us through the centuries?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 29, 2003 - 08:55 pm
From what we read in Our Oriental Heritage and Life of Greece thus far, I'd certainly say so, Robby.

Mal

tooki
January 29, 2003 - 09:31 pm
Fearless Poster 168: try this one on for size. Among other things, civilization must provide for the transmission of culture, which is the accumulated lore and heritage of the tribe. (Durants, Vol.1, p.3) As civilization grows it increases in complexity and scope. For folks to get along there need to be more prohibitions, taboos and laws than necessary in a state of primitiveness. In attempting to adhere to these new mores, folks inevitability transgress and develop a consciousness of guilt as they accumulate violations. This guilt can be expiated, meaning purified with sacred rites. Thus, cleanliness is next to godliness. This illustrates a current ritual coming down through the centuries.

Justin
January 29, 2003 - 10:34 pm
Many Greek rituals have come down to us. Some have arrived intact some in part. Many have come under new names. The one you (Robby)chose as an example is trivial. Others, the religious ones have been adopted by millions of people and are believed to be unique and powerful rituals instituted by God.

The significant question is not whether or not the Greek rituals have come to us or whether or not we have adopted them but whether they have been adopted for good or evil.

If we look over the last two thousand years since adoption of many of these rituals we can easily find evil emanating from the practice of the rituals. Since Constantine in the fourth century the world has experienced one capital sin after another committed in the name of these modified Greek rituals and the sins continue. No need to enumerate them. We are all aware of their names.

Justin
January 29, 2003 - 11:04 pm
One of the problems we have had with the transference of Greek ritual is the creation of guilt among the innocent and with it the need for expiation. The purification, Tooki speaks of, is provided in borrowed ritual and is seen as adequate for washing away the stain of guilt. The Greeks have given us (modern man)a set of rituals that now bear the indelible mark of a contemporaneous God.

3kings
January 29, 2003 - 11:07 pm
There has always been a correlation between eating and killing. There was the last supper, one of the most celebrated events in Christ's life. And as earlier remarked, the ceremonies before judicial killings in prisons are always begun with a meal. ( The condemned man ate a hearty meal, as the media puts it )-- Trevor

Justin
January 30, 2003 - 12:35 am
It occurs to me, at your urging, that Christ's last Supper may be an example of the condemned and the ritual of the last meal. It carries over into the Mass as ritual and is a Christian embellishment in contemporary life. I don't know why it did not occur to me before. You folks, certainly made it plain.

Malryn (Mal)
January 30, 2003 - 02:02 am
Have we forgotten that Christ's last supper was a Seder? That holy celebration in the company of his followers would have taken place whether he was slated for killing or not.

Mal

Bubble
January 30, 2003 - 05:03 am
The purification, Tooki speaks of, is provided in borrowed ritual and is seen as adequate for washing away the stain of guilt.



Is that what the baptism is about? I was never quite sure. Just looked as if starting in life by being guilty. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 05:26 am
As I look back, whenever I attended a funeral, it seemed to be followed by everyone going to a restaurant. I wonder if there is a connection.

Robby

MaryPage
January 30, 2003 - 05:28 am
On Page 193: The temple was not for the congregation but for the god;I have always noted the 2 different approaches to this. Not religious myself, I love cathedrals. I think of them as awesome places man has built as houses for the worship of God. Now here are the Durants noting the difference. Today, in this country, churches are being built with the comfort and entertainment of the congregation in mind. Interesting that this is the direction worship has been traveling in.

...they told how, at various times, the statue had sweated, or wept, or closed its eyes." Sound familiar? Need I say more?

...in time the worshipers ceased to understand the words they used, Wow! This is exactly what happened with the first (Roman Catholic) church! And it was only in our lifetime that the Latin was discarded in favor of the local languages! Our text goes on to say: ...but the thrill of antiquity supplied the place of understanding. Often the ceremony outlasted even the memory of the cause that had prompted it; then new myths were invented to explain its establishment: the myth or creed might change, but not the ritual.

Thrill of antiquity instead of understanding. Yep! New myths were invented to explain. Yep! The myth might change, but not the ritual. Yes! Yes! Yes!

On page 195 the Durants, who always write well, wax poetic.
...to whom religion was a mesh of fears rather than a ladder of hope. I really love that. Think on it. Feel it!

On the same page, this last bit blew my mind. I had to put the book down, and will have to absorb this before I pick it up again to read:
...Dionysus changing water into wine: No further comment at this time, except to point out once again we are studying Classical Greece here; SIX HUNDRED YEARS before the birth of Jesus!

MaryPage
January 30, 2003 - 05:37 am
ROBBY, I think we established before, but perhaps not here, it had been discovered, in digging up coffins, people had been buried alive (scratched lids, etc.). People did not know how to ascertain their beloved were dead and not comatose. So they laid them out on the kitchen table and "waited" for 3 or 4 days to make sure they were dead. The family meals went on around the corpse. Neighbors and friends and relatives came in and out. Eventually, in Ireland particularly, this came to be called a "wake."

Now we have plenty of medical people to pronounce a body dead. We also have embalming. But, whether in a funeral parlor, a home, a church hall, or a restaurant, it is still called a WAKE!

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 05:41 am
"The beasts who bore the brunt of the development of civilization were the bull, the sheep, and pig. Before any battle the rival armies sent up sacrifices in proportion to their desired victory. Before any assembly in Athens the meeting place was purified by the sacrifice of a pig. The piety of the people, however, broke down at the crucial point. Only the bones and a little flesh, wrapped in fat, went to the god. The rest was kept for the priests and the worshipers.

"To excuse themselves the Greeks told how, in the days of the giants, Prometheus had wrapped the edible portions of the sacrificial animal in skin, and the bones in fat, and had asked Zeus to choose which he preferred. Zeus had 'with both hands' chosen the fat. It was true that Zeus was enraged upon finding that he had been deceived, but he had made his choice, and must abide by it forever.

"Only in sacrifice to the chthonian gods was everything surrendered to the deity, and the entire animal burnt to ashes in a holocaust. The divinities of the lower world were more feared than those of Olympus. No common meal followed a chthonic sacrifice, for that might tempt the god to come and join the feast.

"But after sacrifice to the Olympians the worshipers, not in awed atonement to the god but in joyous communion with him, consumed the consecrated victim. The magic formulas pronounced over it had, they hoped, imbued it with the life and power of the god, which would now pass mystically into his communicants. In like manner wine was poured upon the sacifice, and then into the cups of the worshipers, who drank, so to speak, with the gods.

"In the thiatoi, or fraternities, into which so many trade and social groups in Athens were organized, the idea of divine communion in a common religious meal formed the binding tie.

"Animal sacrifice was ended by Christianity which wisely substituted for it the spiritual and symbolical sacrifice of the Mass. In some measure prayer too became a substitute for sacrifice. It was a clever amendment that commuted offerings of blood into litanies of praise.

"In this gentler way man, subject to chance and tragedy at every step, consoled and strengthened himself by calling to his aid the mysterious powers of the world."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 08:35 am
Here are some "INTERESTNG" FACTS about Greek animal sacrifice.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 10:22 am
This morning I was listening to Arianna Huffington on the Diane Rehm show and, of course, I realized that she is of Greek birth. Click HERE to learn about her sister, Agapi Stassinopoulos who produced the PBS documentary entitled "The Gods of Greece" based on her sister Arianna's book of the same title.

Read all three pages and be sure to take the quiz.

Robby

Shasta Sills
January 30, 2003 - 10:39 am
Robby, I tried to take the quiz, but they aren't the questions that interest me. I always like to ask my own questions.

Referring to a previous question: why do we eat after a funeral? I think it's because after mourning the dead, we need to celebrate life again. Food is synonymous with life.

Bubble
January 30, 2003 - 10:45 am
Robby, that article talked about my own parallel world!
The quizz was hard, I only got a 6. May I use the same excuse as you? It was not the angle of the picture that threw me out in this quizz but that it was English Lit! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 10:51 am
A-ha, Bubble! You have been lurking in Travel Trivia!

tooki
January 30, 2003 - 12:02 pm
Jared Diamond, author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, "Guns, Germs and Steel," (recently purchased by Mal, I believe) is at work on a new book which will examine the collapse of ancient civilizations such as the Maya. He says, "I'm looking at past societies to determine why some collapsed and others didn't. Then I want to see what useful lessons can be extracted from this to prevent us from collapsing today, which otherwise we might do within certainly the next 50 years if we don't fix up our act pretty soon." There are other pithy comments. From "The Portland Oregonian," Wed., Jan. 29, 2003.

"Guns, Germs and Steel" presents the view that environment and geography - not race or IQ differences - allowed Eurasian societies to technologically develop more rapidly than other cultures, i.e. "all the stuff" we have.

Good grief! 50 years?

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 12:09 pm
Apparently, Tooki, our discussion here is very relevant.

Robby

MaryPage
January 30, 2003 - 03:09 pm
I am the one who just bought that book. It is a wonderful read!

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 06:48 pm
"Between these upper and nether poles of Greek religion, the Olympian and the subterranean, surged an ocean of magic, superstition, and sorcery. Behind and below the geniuses whom we shall celebrate were masses of people to whom religion was not a ladder of hope.

"It was not merely that the average Greek accepted miracle stories -- of Theseus rising from the dead to fight at Marathon, or of Dionysus changing water into wine. Such stories appear among every people, and are part of the forgiveable poetry with which imagination brightens the common life.

"One could even pass over the anxiety of Athens to secure the bones of Theseus, and of Sparta to bring back from Tegea the bones of Orestes. The miraculous power officially attributed to these relics may well have been part of the technique of rule.

"What oppressed the pious Greek was the cloud of spirits that surrounded him, ready and able, he believed, to spy upon him, interfere with him, and do him evil. These demons were always seeking to enter into him.

"He had to be on his guard against them at all times, and to perform magical ceremonies to disperse them."

Apparently all the Greeks were not at the level of the ones we studied in high school. The masses were ever-present.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2003 - 07:38 pm
Here is a LINK to the ancient Greek story of changing water into wine. As always, consider the source of the Link.

Robby

Justin
January 30, 2003 - 07:59 pm
Mal: I am sure you are right about the Last Supper being a Seder, but nothing of the Exodus has come through to us from that meal.It is the message of a Christian communion that is the legacy of the Last Supper.

Justin
January 30, 2003 - 10:41 pm
I have read Arianna Stas'... biographies of Maria Callas and of Pablo Picasso. Both books, in my judgement, were trivial. Her work on the Greek Gods might reveal some deeper treatment, I don't know, but in the hands of her sister the work appeared to me to be equally trivial.

Justin
January 30, 2003 - 11:05 pm
The bones of Theseus and Orestes are relics with miraculous power.In the Middle Ages relics were again popular. Many were returned from the Crusades and some continue to be venerated by the faithful. The Cathedral of Notre Dame at Chartres has in it's treasury a garment said to have belonged to the Virgin Mary. So too, at Canterbury and at the Abbey Church of St. Denis, are there garments of the Virgin that were useful in combatting the effects of fire. Durant includes the veneration of relics in his section on superstition. I suppose that's where the stories belong but it is not quite the same as stepping on a crack or having a black cat cross one's path.

Justin
January 30, 2003 - 11:15 pm
To touch a sick person was to contract his uncleanliness. That is not so much superstition as good sense. When someone is sneezing or showing a runny nose,we,today, know that the common catarrh can be avoided by getting out of the path of contact.

Justin
January 30, 2003 - 11:22 pm
The Durants tell us "A bowl of clean water stood at the entrance to every Greek temple, so those who came to worship might cleanse themselves, perhaps by a suggestive symbolism." Catholic Churches today, place bowls of water in the entrance so that those who come to worship, might bless themselves with the water.I'm not sure what the significance is of the water. I know that the water is besssed. Perhaps Eloise can help us out on this one.

robert b. iadeluca
January 31, 2003 - 06:07 am
"The superstition by pious Greeks that demons were always seeking to enter into him in some measure forecast our germ theory of disease. All sickness to the Greek meant possession by an alien spirit. To touch a sick person was to contract his uncleanliness or 'possession.' Our bacilli and bacteria are the currently fashionable forms of what the Greeks called keres or little demons. So a dead person was 'unclean.' The keres had gotten him once for all.

"When the Greek left a home where a corpse lay, he sprinkled himself with water from a vessel placed for such purposes at the door to drive away from himself the spirit that had conquered the dead man. This conception was extended to many realms where even our bacteriophobia would hardly apply it.

"Sexual intercourse rendered a person unclean. So did birth, child birth, and homicide (even if unintentional.) Madness was possession by an alien spirit. The madman was 'beside himself.' In all these cases a ceremony of purification was considered necessary. Periodically homes, temples, camps, even whole cities were purified, and very much as we disinfect them -- by water, smoke, or fire.

"A bowl of clean water stood at the entrance to every temple, so that those who came to worship might cleanse themselves, perhaps by a suggestive symbolism. The priest was an expert in purification. He could exorcise sprits by striking bronze vessels, by incanatations, magic, and prayer. Even the intentional homicide might, by adequate ritual, be purified.

"Repentance was not indispensable in such cases. All that was needed was to get rid of the evil possessive demons. Religion was not so much a matter of morals as a technique of manipulating spirits. Nevertheless the multiplication of taboos and purificatory rites produced in the religious Greek a state of mind surprisingly akin to the Puritan sense of sin.

"The notion that the Greeks were immune to ideas of conscience and sin will hardly survive a reading of Pindar and Aesehylus."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 31, 2003 - 06:31 am
We, in the 21st Century, might look askance at some of the beliefs of Greeks 2,500 years ago. Click on to this ENLIGHTENING ARTICLE in today's NY Times concerning some of today's beliefs. The research was intensive. The author examined the data with non-partisan objectivity. We will, of course, do the same.

Robby

Bubble
January 31, 2003 - 06:40 am
So many beliefs, is that a sign if intolerance? They cannot practice and accept one another?

MaryPage
January 31, 2003 - 06:50 am
and the enthusiasm a 5 year old shows when choosing the ice cream flavor for her cone, I think I like the idea of communing with Harvey's Bristol Cream sherry. Oh, yes!

Malryn (Mal)
January 31, 2003 - 07:26 am
Having more or less been born into the Universalist Church, which merged with the Unitarian Fellowship, I am most interested in the Universalist-Unitarian Pagans, despite my no longer having any affiliation with the UU religion or any other.

Of course, there are some who have thought the Universalist Unitarians with their No Creed except the brotherhood of men and women, their disbelief in the Trinity and Hell, and their non-deification of Jesus Christ, has been a pagan religion all along. Having gone to the UU Pagan web page, I see that some ancient festivals are celebrated and that goddesses are acceptable as well as God or no God. Very interesting.

Some Unitarians you might had heard of are Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau, who were Transcendentalists much interested in Hinduism and Buddhism, Feminist Margaret Fuller, Abolitionist poet John Greenleaf Whittier, Adlai Stevenson, and many others. Mavericks all, but by God and goddesses, they were and are people of reason. (See where I get it from?)

This is not a statement of religious faith, Robby. I may believe some of it, but I sure as No Hell do not belong!

Very interesting article. This violence prone, often warlike country is also the most religious? Why do I think that's an oxymoron?

Mal

tooki
January 31, 2003 - 09:53 am
This from an article in the "Encyclopedia Britannica." Purification rites are performed for these reasons: Removing pollution; Expulsion of pollution; Transfer of pollution; To Destroy pollution; To Transform pollution into Purity; To Reestablihing lost purity; To Move to a higher level of purity (transcendental). Is does, indeed, seem to be the case that cleanliness is next to godliness. And why, do you supposed, is white associated with cleanliness? Eg., the great white whale, Moby Dick; bridal attire, etc.

Bubble
January 31, 2003 - 10:09 am
Bridal color is white in the west, red in China if I remember right. There white is apparently for mourning.

MaryPage
January 31, 2003 - 01:34 pm
Queen Victoria was the one who made white popular for brides, so the tradition is not as old as people think.

Justin
January 31, 2003 - 02:47 pm
Thank you Robby for your enlightening find on the diversity of religions in the US and Canada. The author says there are 2630 separate and distinct sects. The magnitude of that number confirms the view that the god business is a very profitable business. They pay no taxes and have an enthusiastic supportive clientel. What more can a young man in search of opportunity ask of a business?

Shasta Sills
January 31, 2003 - 02:50 pm
Melton's article is indeed enlightening. As we study Greek gods, I always think: how excessive to have so many gods! But apparently the need for multitudes of beliefs still exists! I always think of the U.S. as a secular nation. And it turns out to be the most religious nation in the world! That shows how much I know.

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2003 - 06:36 am
"Greek religion was in origin a system of magic rather than of ethics, and remained so, in large measure, to the end. Correct ritual received more emphasis than good conduct. The gods themselves, on Olympus or on earth, had not been exemplars of honesty, chastity, or gentleness.

"Even the Eleusinian Mysteries, though they offered supernatural hopes, made salvation depend upon ritual pufifications rather than upon nobility of life. Said the sarcastic Diogenes, 'Pataikion the thief will have a better fate after his death than Agesilaus or Epaminondas, for Pataikion has been initiated at Eleusis.'"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2003 - 07:37 am
The Eleusinian Mysteries with pictures and diagrams of the Telesterion

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2003 - 10:43 am
As I break in here to comment on the tragedy of the space shuttle, am I changing the theme of this forum? Absolutely NOT, in my opinion. This is, in fact, exactly what we are talking about.

THE STORY OF CIVILIZATION

As we look in the heading at Voltaire's quote, this tragedy is part of the answer to his query.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2003 - 11:33 am
All Americans are in sorrow regarding the destruction of the space Shuttle Columbia and the loss of its occupants. May we share our feelings with Sea Bubble and all citizens of Israel who are in sorrow regarding the loss of Ilan Ramon, the first Israelite in space. Hs wife and four children live in Tel Aviv.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2003 - 01:11 pm
"Civilization will collapse and the human race will become extinct if we don't expand into space. That bears repeating, so, CIVILIZATION WILL COLLAPSE AND THE HUMAN RACE WILL BECOME EXTINCT IF WE DON'T EXPAND INTO SPACE. Shout it out; a pro-space argument cannot get much more powerful than that, and many anti- space advocates provide us with supporting arguments."

- - - Harold Hamblet

MaryPage
February 1, 2003 - 01:17 pm
A very sad day indeed.

At Barnes & Noble this afternoon (where I purchased another book on Ancient Rome) I stood for a while and read a science book which I believe was titled THE FUTURE OF PLANET EARTH. Fascinating. First, the earth is going to warm up. All the ice is going to disappear. Then various plant forms are going to become extinct. Gradually, all plant life will disappear. So will we. Then entirely different life forms will appear and reign for approximately 150 million more years, until they, too, disappear. Finally, our sun will swallow up our planet in super nova.

Well, that sure settles our sense of self-importance as a species! But these scientists have it all figured out almost to the minute. They also figure on what I have long maintained should be our chief goal: i.e., we've got to work out how to get off this planet and settle, first other planets in this solar system (further from our sun), and then planets in other solar systems. They explain in detail how inhospitable our other planets will be and how expensive it will be to emmigrate and settle them.

tooki
February 1, 2003 - 02:01 pm
to return to "Aetiological Myths"

Someone here said that mythology used to be taught to school children. (Bubble?) This is something from an 1893 textbook for school children. It says that as promulgated by the science of mind - psychology - and the science of man - anthropology- there is a theory of "survival." "According to the theory of "survival" many of the puzzling elements of myth resolve themselves into survival of primitive (1) philsosophy, (2) science, or (3) history. From philosophy proceed the cruder systems of physical and spiritual evolution, the generation of gods and the other world of ghosts; from science, the cruder attempts at explaining the phenomena of the natural and animal world by endowing them with human and frequently magical powers; from history, the narratives invented to account for the sanctity of certain shrines and rituals, and for tribal customs and ceremonials, the origin of which had been forgotten. These last are known as aetiological myths; they pretend to assign the aitia, or reason, why Delphi, for instance should have the oracle of Apollo, or why the ritual of Demeter should be celebrated at Eleusis and in a certain dramatic manner."

There will be a quiz on this.

MaryPage
February 1, 2003 - 03:16 pm
"from science, the cruder attempts at explaining the phenomena of the natural and animal world by endowing them with human and frequently magical powers;" Sounds to me like someone who is attempting to discredit Science and scientific findings! Cruder Attempts! Wow! Did cruder mean something different a century ago? Magical Powers? Science??? I don't think so!

"from history, the narratives invented to account for the sanctity of certain shrines and rituals, and for tribal customs and ceremonials, the origin of which had been forgotten." Invented? Wow, I hope not! Could it be that the writer of this text had read or heard about some of the writings of the Ancient Greek historians themselves, had noted what to this writer's mind might have seemed sacreligious allusions to rites and legends much too strikingly similar to Christian ones, and been attempting to dissuade their pupils from any further research into or reading about myths? Hmmm?

Malryn (Mal)
February 1, 2003 - 04:17 pm
Though my thoughts and condolences are with those who lost loved ones today in the tragedy that will be called Columbia, especially Israelis who have already had enough, all I could think of was the attitude of many in my country about participating in a war in which many more lives will be lost and more billions of dollars' worth of equipment will disintegrate.

Civilization, indeed!

Justin
February 1, 2003 - 07:13 pm
Reentry might have caused some damage in elements of the flight the technicians were not monitoring. The Challenger problem was so long ago we may have become complacent about monitoring everything. The inquiry will show some of the errors and some of the damage sources but will not bring back the seven dead astronauts who will be missed by family and friends. The country mourns its dead tonight.

Justin
February 1, 2003 - 07:14 pm
I see Mandella had some interesting things to say about our man in office.

Justin
February 1, 2003 - 07:30 pm
Durant tells us that Greek oracles read the entrails of animals and observed the stars to discern the will of its supernatural powers.These practices continue in contemporary society. Palm readers abound and one cannot open a newspaper without finding an astrological prediction custom designed for each reader. "Tell us your birthday" and the editor's guru will supply a prediction for your day. Lots of folks believe that stuff. Some people can't get started in the morning without a cup of coffee and their personal astrological prediction for the day.

3kings
February 1, 2003 - 08:33 pm
I am saddened by the loss of life in the shuttle accident, as I am sure are all people. But I wonder why, politicians mainly, should think the loss is more worthy of mention because it happened in space, rather than occurring in the astronauts' homes, or perhaps private motor vehicle on the way to the supermarket? My question is, had the deaths been in more familiar circumstances, would there have been a Presidential farewell?-- Trevor

Justin
February 1, 2003 - 09:32 pm
The Greek priests were not in advance of Greek thought but, on the other hand, they did not hinder it by doctrinal intolerance, Durant informs us.

I have observed that priests are never in advance of philosophical thought and most often hinder it by doctrinal intolerance. They frequently attempt to control the thought processes of others.

That characteristic has prevailed for centuries until now one is told by some priests not to examine scriptural documents and antecedents but to heed what one is told to heed. Other priests advise their contemporary flocks to read scripture and nothing else. I am sure the Greeks never knew how good was their intellectual life.

Justin
February 1, 2003 - 09:38 pm
The Amphictyonic League is compared to the League of Nations. Just think, the Durants are writing this before the introduction of the UN. Until now I had thought that the UN's primary antecedent was the League of Nations and so it is but it is also the Greek Amphictyonic League. Every once in a while I get the feeling that it has all happened before.

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2003 - 09:50 pm
As we mourn the space explorers, let us not forget the NAUTICAL EXPLORERS of the past, whose lives were equally as dangerous.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2003 - 09:57 pm
Read further about ANCIENT SHIPWRECKS in the Mediterranean, Black, and Aegean Seas.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 07:01 am
Life moves on. Progress continues. I listened to one of the earlier astronauts speaking of the importance of mankind "spreading out" toward the stars and I would not be surprised if many, if not most of them had, in the process of their education, studied the history of ancient peoples.

It is time for us to examine more in detail the life of the "average" Greek citizen. Durant moves us on to

The Common Culture of Early Greece

"The two rival zeniths of European culture -- ancient Hellas and Renaissance Italy -- rested upon no larger political organization than the city-state. Geographical conditions presumably contributed to this result in Greece. Everywhere mountains or water intervened. Bridges were rare and roads were poor. Though the sea was an open highway, it bound the city with its commercial associates rather than with its geographical neighbors.

"But geography does not altogether explain the city-state. There was as much separatism between Thebes and Plataea, on the same Boeotian plain, as between Thebes and Sparta. More between Sybaris and Crotona on the same Italian shore than between Sybaris and Syracuse. Diversity of economic and political interest kept the cities apart. They fought one another for distant markets or grain, or formed rival alliances for control of the sea.

"Distinctions of origin helped to divide them. The Greeks considered themselves to be all of one race, but their tribal divisions -- Aeolian, Ionian, Achaean, Dorian -- were keenly felt, and Athens and Sparta disliked each other with an ethnological virulence worthy of our own age.

"Differences of religion strengthened, as they were strengthened by, political divisions. Out of the unique cults of locality and clan came distinct festivals and calendars, distinct customs and laws, distinct tribunals, even distinct frontiers. The boundary stones limited the realm of the god as well as of the community. Cujus regio, ejus religio."

Similarites and differences from today? A virulence worthy of our own age?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 2, 2003 - 07:04 am
In ancient times, the life of a man was trivial, but not today in our own world. We value it so much more. Sadness at the death of 7 astronauts is felt all over the world. More so than the disappointment of losing equipment.

The loss of the Space Shuttle will trigger scientists' incentive to find ways to make safer and more sophisticated equipment. Other nations who have space programs will also have to rethink their strategies and discard some of their present equipment to invent better and safer material.

I believe that this accident will trigger scientific advancement as it did after the Challenger accident.

This is how civilization advances, with the loss of lives, along with sophisticated equipment which has never deterred governments from wanting to maintain their supremacy in past civilizations until some lesser nation finds the weak flaw in it and destroys it. David and Goliath.

Eloïse

MaryPage
February 2, 2003 - 07:09 am
FIFTY people died in an explosion in NIGERIA today.

Malryn (Mal)
February 2, 2003 - 08:08 am
An article in the Durham Herald Sun this morning

Malryn (Mal)
February 2, 2003 - 08:13 am
If the states united in America were not under a strong central federal government, would states be at each other's necks? I rather think they would.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 08:21 am
Taking into account, the Durham article in Mal's link, I wonder if any of the explorations in history were underfunded -- Ancient Greeks in the Mediterranean, Black and Aegean Seas? Phoenician explorations? Portuguese extensive travels? Voyages of Columbus? British naval exploits?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 09:41 am
I have just watched NBC's "Meet The Press" concerning the space program and heard the word "destiny" mentioned five times. Isn't that what this discussion group is all about? According to the participants, destiny includes not only our movement out into space but our progress, medical, scientific and spiritual, here on earth.

Doesn't it all boil down to the possible answers to Voltaire's query?

Robby

MaryPage
February 2, 2003 - 03:01 pm
You bet.

tooki
February 2, 2003 - 03:33 pm
I don't think this

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 03:38 pm
Tooki, you have said you don't agree with the ideas expounded in the link you gave, but you don't say why. Please expand.

Robby

tooki
February 2, 2003 - 03:40 pm
I'll try again. Hey, folks; it's not me it's the computer. I don't think this is the answer. We already know this. Can the answer to "Civilization: Why" really be Location! Location! Location!

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 03:44 pm
Now I guess the problem is me. Are you saying that you agree or disagree with Durant's comments above or with the material you linked?

Robby

tooki
February 2, 2003 - 04:00 pm
The discussion in the site was, in my view, correct but lacking in subtlety. (Ah hem!) Do you think this helps understanding? "The Greek city-state was a strange little world, very different from the medieval town in western Europe. The latter was quite separate from the countryside; it was self-contained, with political and economic benefits reserved to the privileged townspeople who live intra muros. The Greek polis on the other hand, while "linked to an urban centre, was not identical with it. The "citizens" were residents of a territory greater than the city itself, which was only one element in the state, though an important one of course, since everyone made use of its market-place or agora, its citadel as a place of refuge, and its temple devoted to the divine protector of the polis. Politically, however, it was of a piece with the surrounding territory. Even Corinth, the guardian of the roads across the isthmus, and a major trading and industrial centre, had, like all the Greek city states an economy based on agriculture: the existence of a city was inconceivable without a surrounding territory, the division of which among the citizens was the basis of civic identity. (from, "Memory and the Mediterranean," by Fernand Braudel," 2001)

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 04:10 pm
"The Greek polis on the other hand, while "linked to an urban centre, was not identical with it. The "citizens" were residents of a territory greater than the city itself, which was only one element in the state, though an important one of course."

Thank you, Tooki. That was most helpful. I hadn't known that. We will see what Durant has to say about these "city-states."

It is my understanding that Singapore is considered a city-state. How does that compare to the cities and nations around it?

Robby

Justin
February 2, 2003 - 04:19 pm
Robby, re your 238. How does one progress "spiritually"? I suggest we not use the word unless it has some meaning that we can all recognize.

On the question of Underfunding and discovery, I think most efforts that result in discovery are underfunded. Columbus was certainly underfunded. He sat for many years waiting for some one to give him a little money to put his expedition together. I am sure he underbudgeted to get started. The Spanish and Portuguese Queens were cheap skates. Phillip was more interested in promoting Catholicism in Holland than in finding new trade routes.

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 04:23 pm
Justin, concerning the word "spiritually" -- you are so correct. I thought of that when I wrote the word and while I did not want to use the word religion (which in my mind is not synonymous with spirituality). I felt there was one other concept I could not at the moment identify.

I felt that the space exploration had more than a medical/scientific goal. Perhaps someone here can furnish the other word I am looking for -- not only for our space program but for exploration in general over the millennia (in addition to trade).

Robby

MaryPage
February 2, 2003 - 05:44 pm
Watched a new DVD of Greece last night with a visiting daughter. For the very first time, I actually heard the acoustics at Epidarus. The travel guide, Rick Steve, actually gave an oration while the camera and mike walked up to the top tier of the 12,000 seat arena. Incredible. Unbelievable. No wiring system WHATSOEVER. 2,500 years old! More than that, I think. I have a Big Question: Why don't WE build places like that?

Now, don't get mad at me, ROBBY, but I am going to throw in a modern note. The Greeks have come up with an idea our phone companies should copy. Tired of public phones and/or phone booths being vandalized, they put bright red ones, not in booths at all, EVERYWHERE! Only they don't take money. You have to buy a card, for as little as $5, and spend it making calls. They said a card goes a long, long way. And the phones remain intact! Brilliant, I say!

ROBBY, haven't been at the book for several days, but will get back to it tomorrow for a bit. Slow going, because there is so very much to do, BUT am still avid for this book and this discussion!

p.s. Yes, I could hear every word Rick Steve said. From every row!

Justin
February 2, 2003 - 07:08 pm
The acoustics at Epidaurus are amazing. The prevailing winds and weather conditions help of course but the design is the key.

We are not building outdoors for the speaking voice, generally. The Globe theatres at Avon and at Stratford in Connecticut are partially open and exhibit good acoustics. The Mormon Tabernacle in Salt Lake has amazing acoustics but it is a contained vessel. A speaking voice can be heard from any seat anywhere in the tabernacle.

Short of testing acoustics are often a matter of opinion.Everyone I knew said the acoustics at the old Met in New York were best in the balcony. We couldn't afford the Grand Tier in those days where I think the sound in modern opera houses is best.

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2003 - 07:22 pm
Durant continues:--

"It was not a new administrative form. We have seen that there were city-states in Sumeria, Babylonia, Phoenicia, and Crete hundreds or thousands of years before Homer or Pericles. Historically the city-state was the village community in a higher stage of fusion or development -- a common market, meeting ground, and judgment seat for men tilling the same hinterland, belonging to the same stock, and worshiping the same god.

"Politically it was to the Greek the best available compromise between those two hostile and fluctuating components of human society -- order and liberty. A smaller community would have been insecure, a larger one tyrannical. Ideally -- in the aspirations of philosophers -- Greece was to consist of sovereign city-states co-operating in a Pythagorean harmony. Aristotle conceived the state as an association of freemen acknowledging one government and capable of meeting in one assembly. A state with more than ten thousand citizens, he thought, would be impracticable.

"In the Greek language one word -- polis -- sufficed for both city and state."

I am still struggling to understand this concept and perhaps you folks will help me. I still wonder about Singapore and try to compare it to the Greek city-states.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 2, 2003 - 08:00 pm
Robby - "I felt that the space exploration had more than a medical/scientific goal." A large part of space exploration and satellite launches is for the purpose of espionnage. There are hundreds up there right now circling the earth. They are cocooning the earth listening in on conversations, they can even see inside caves, and take pictures of every thing that moves.

"You have to buy a card, for as little as $5, and spend it making calls." For the past 15 years ago I have used those telephone calling cards in France. The 'petite' costs about $3 and the 'grande' card about $10. They are very practical but you can't talk for hours on those.

Eloïse

Justin
February 3, 2003 - 12:01 am
You are not alone, Robby. I too have had trouble with the word Polis. Some applications of the word make me think it means citizenry. Other uses seem to imply just the "State". Still others indicate the city and the State.

The city and the state are not one. The state includes the suburbs. The city does not.

There are several hundred city-states. Each with a government peculiar to it. Some are oligarchic, some are democractic. So it is not form of government that makes a polis.

To some extent, it is allegiance to local gods that make a polis unique. Citizens of a polis must be willing to give military and economic service to the state and to obey the laws of the state.

What is a polis? It is an isolated community of people with common interests that some times result in civil war. Thats all I know about a polis and I feel uncertain about the definition.

I don't know anything about Singapore.

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 04:43 am
"All the world knows that this political atomism brought to Hellas many a tragedy of fraternal strife. Because Ionia was unable to unite for defense, it fell subject to Persia. Because Greece, despite confederacies and leagues, was unable to stand together, the freedom which it idolized was in the end destroyed.

"And yet Greece would have been impossible without the city-state. Only through this sense of civic individuality, this exuberant assertion of independence, this diversity of institutions, customs, arts, and gods, was Greece stimulated by competition and emulation, to live human life with a zest and fullness and creative originality that no other society had ever known.

"Even in our own times, with all our vitality and variety, our mechanisms and powers, is there any community of like population or extent that pours into the stream of civilization such a profusion of gifts as flowed from the chaotic liberty of the Greeks?"

What is your answer to Durant's question? Their gifts greater than ours?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 04:51 am
Click HERE to read about change of loyalty from city-states to nation-states.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 05:01 am
An EXPLANATION of "city-states."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2003 - 05:09 am
Ancient Greece left the world a wealth of gifts -- philosophy, literature, art, mathematics and science. It also left us the concept of democracy. About democracy, Winston Churchill said:
"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those others that have been tried from time to time."
What Churchill said is often misquoted with only the first part of the last sentence stated. Put government in the hands of the people, and what do you have? Without stringent laws, restrictions and rules, there could be chaos in such a government.

As I said before, I believe the only reason the United States is successful in its democratic form of government is because there is a strong central government and federal laws which must be obeyed by every state, as well as state laws exclusive to each state. That, Ancient Greece did not have, as far as I know.

The dictionary says that a City-State consists of a city and all of its surrounding territory. Who declares the boundaries of that territory? Who makes the laws? Were there laws in Ancient Greece which applied to all the City-States in it?

Of course, the United States of America is a democratic republic, not just a democracy, and there is a difference between the two.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 05:27 am
I live in Rappahannock County in the State of Virginia. (Virginia is actually a Commonwealth but we won't add to the confusion now.) Within Rappahannock County is the small community of Washington. (Do not confuse with Washington, DC). "Little Washington" -- as we call it -- is the county seat of Rappahannock County and is also an incorporated village with its own laws. Does that therefore make it a polis -- a city-state?

I do not live in the village of Washington nor do I live in any community but I live out in the countryside of Rappahannock County. I am not subject to the laws of the village of Washington but am subject to the laws of Rappahannock County which are made by the county government which is in the village of Washington.

In addition to all that, I am also subject to the laws of Virginia, not to mention the United States of America. Did the Ancient Greek polis avoid all this rigamarole?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2003 - 06:14 am
I do not live in any town or city in North Carolina. I live in Orange County near the city of Chapel Hill. Though some laws of Chapel Hill apply to me because people in my area have a Chapel Hill address, I am not permitted to vote in local Chapel Hill elections. County laws also apply to me, as do the laws of North Carolina and federal laws. The county seat is in Hillsborough some twenty miles away. I pay my automobile tax, pet tax, etc. to the tax office in Hillsborough. My state taxes go to the state tax office in Raleigh, the state capital, thirty some miles away, and I pay my federal taxes to Washington, DC, a couple of hundred miles away. It is a rigmarole, isn't it, Robby? Rigmarole or not, I still think it's a better system than the City-State system in Ancient Greece.

Mal

tooki
February 3, 2003 - 06:40 am
It's interesting that although there are many sources on the net and in our books, I haven't found anything that addresses how the boundaries were determined. The best I could find was some discussion of the Greek city-states as "a pattern of islands." The geography - "natural fragmentation" - small sized but numerous plains, lent itself to small, self-governing areas. But I haven't found any specific discussion of "boundaries." I subscribe to Justin's view that the allegiance to local gods was important to a polis. I think that determining the reason(s) for the formation of city-states is important to an understanding of the Greek spirit. I suggest these as some binding factors: (1) allegiance to the same gods, (2) land in common (what did the Germans call it: "fatherland," (3) irritation at outsiders, playing on the old feeling of xenophobia. Then there would have been shared festivals, clothing fashions, and competition with other city-state in athletics and other games. Is this all there was? Somehow it doesn't seem enough.

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 06:43 am
Tooki:--Isn't most of what you said applicable to our own states and/or nations?

Robby

tooki
February 3, 2003 - 06:52 am
My good ol' Webster's (1890, 1900, 1926), has as its second defination of spiritual: "Of or pertaining to the intellectual and higher endowments of the mind; mental; intellectual." I think that any endeavor that requires lots and lots of brain power is perforce spiritual in nature. Things that occupy your total mind, to the exclusion of worldly considerations, are spiritual in nature. I think the word "spiritual" and its meansings has been unfairly ursurped, seized, and kidnapped by religion. I demand it back!

MaryPage
February 3, 2003 - 07:22 am
If I wait until we get to Book III in our series, CAESAR AND CHRIST, I know I will have forgotten this tidbit, so just have to share. I watched a PBS show on Rome in the 1st century last night, and it was wrapped around OVID and his writings. He wrote of getting a birthday cake on his birthdays! Now THERE is something that has lasted two thousand or more years! They read a lot of his poetry, and while some of it was quite beautiful and expressed thinking and emotions that sounded exactly as we might write of our feelings in our own time, I was astonished to find he was exiled for his poetry that amounted to how-to sex manuals. I had thought it was politics, but it was moral censorship that sent him off into the hinterlands to die. Oh, and one last bit I remember: he describes one of his frustrations being like "dancing in the dark", leaving me to wonder if he was the first ever to use that phrase, which is also the title of one of my all-time favorite melodies.

Sorry, ROBBY. Back to subject soonest. ELOISE, the cards I described were not long distance cards. They were cards sold by the local phone companies for use in the public phones only, as these phones had absolutely no way to put coins in them. They figured out if they took the coin system away, thieves would stop vandalizing the phones for the money they contained.

p.s. TOOKI, I agree!

tooki
February 3, 2003 - 07:25 am
Besides being a bunch of people loosely held together by a form of government, I think our States have little in common with the Ancient Greek city states. If one agrees that the Greeks had certain binding factors, I don't see the States as having many, besides a mandatory interest in the budget and who's governor. States, of course, do not share a common religion. They do not share a common geography, their boundaries having been carved out in most cases arbitrarily. Because they do not share a common geography, they do not share economic concerns. I lived in eastern Washington for many years (on a farm that was too big to mow and too small to make a living). We hated Seattle; they got everything! Highways, improvements; we got nothing! Now I live in western Oregon (Portland). And Portland gets everything. Those poor folks in eastern Oregon suffer because of the resources going west. City state sort of boundaries would have meant western Washington and Oregon, i.e., Seattle and Portland being, if not separate from the east, at least bound together. More examples abound. And I'll bet the folks in upstate New York feel that New York City gets everything. And now I must put my head down on my desk and rest because I'm over excited again.

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2003 - 07:33 am
What about interstate commerce? Did that exist in Ancient Greece? I see many ways in which states are dependent on each other today. What of "everything" did these cities you mention get, Tooki? Was it dependent on state taxes?

Mal

Faithr
February 3, 2003 - 03:21 pm
I think these legal geographical units are meant to be separate identities. Towns that are not incorporated are actually just a part of the county,(counties are also known as townships,commonwealths,and parishes and each has a slightly different organization for running said unit) incorporated towns and cities have their own government, as does the county, and so does the state. And all (of Them) owe allegiance and taxes and military service to the Federal Government. All must obey Federal laws, state laws and city and county ordinances. Greece had a totally different type of political structure. only the words seem the same city/state, because of language limitations and difficulty in translations. faith

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 07:31 pm
"As far back as the thirteenth century B.C. we find one language throughout the Greek penunsula. It belonged to the 'Indo-European' group, like Persian and Sanskrit, Slavonic and Latin, German and English. Thousands of words denoting the primary relations or objects of life have common roots in these tongues, and suggest not only the predispersion antiquity of the things denoted, but the kinship or association of the people who used them in the dawn of history.

"For example -- in addition to numerals and family terms, such words as Sanskrit dam (as) (house), Greek domos, Latin damus, English tim-ber --dvaras, thyra, fares, door -- venas, (f)oinas, vitnum, wine -- naur, navis, nave -- akshas, axon, axis, axle -- iugam, zygon, iugum, yoke -- etc.

"It is true that the Greek language was diversified into dialects -- Aeolic, Doric, Ionic, Attic. But these were mutually intelligible, and yielded, in the fifth and fourth centuries, to a koine dialektos, or common dialect, which emanated principally from Athens, and was spoken by nearly all the educated classes of the Hellenic world. Attic Greek was a noble tongue, vigorous, supple, melodious -- as irregular as any vital speech, but lending itself readily to expressive combinations, delicate gradations and distinctions of meaning -- subtle philosophical conceptions -- and every variety of literary excellence from the 'many-billowed surge' of Homer's verse to the placid flow of Plato's prose.

"We do not know how ancient Greek was pronounced. The accents that trouble us so much were seldom used by the classical Greeks, but were inserted into ancient texts by Aristophanes of Byzantium in the third century B.C. These accents should be ignored in reading Greek poetry."

Any one here want to have fun with words? Maybe some of the words we use right here in this forum emanate from the Ancient Greek.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2003 - 08:30 pm
1 -- logo
2 -- Anglophile
3 -- bibliophile
4 -- psychology
5 -- phobia
6 -- oedipal
7 -- pederast
8 -- icon
9 -- iconoclast
10 -- psyche
11 -- anaesthesia
12 -- narcissus

And more.

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2003 - 08:55 pm
I would guess that those of us in this discussion group have learned to think big -- our perspectives have been stretched -- not only looking far far into the past to answer the question above "What Are Our Origins?" but having the capacity to see far far into the future and attempting to answer the question "Where Are We Headed?" And so this FASCINATING ESSAY from today's New York Times will help us to pause and wonder just who and what we are.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 3, 2003 - 09:38 pm
Scientists I know have said to me within the past one to five years that the space to look into and explore is microscopic and inward. I wondered about that, since it didn't seem as exciting and dramatic as exploring outer space. After thinking a while, I decided that perhaps it is the way to go.

What, after all, do we really know about the synaptic impulses of the neuron of the human brain? What mysteries have we not discovered about those cells which determine so much of what we are and do and the conclusions we reach?

Could it be possible that some grave errors in civilizations we've studied which are repeated and repeated over and over could be changed by studying and correcting the flight plan of the human brain? Who knows? Only time will tell.

It's a shocking idea for most people probably, but wasn't the first flight to the moon just as astounding?

Mal

3kings
February 4, 2003 - 12:54 am
Returning to the Astronauts for a moment. I have just realized that the deaths that have occurred all happened within the atmosphere.No deaths have been while in Space itself. Astronauts have spent many more hours in space than traversing the atmosphere during lift off or re-entry. Perhaps space is more benign than we thought?

Re Greek City States. Every four years the athletes gathered at Olympia. It seems all Greek States were required by law to grant safe passage through their territory to the athletes on their way to the games. Also, any warfare was to cease during the Olympics, and in the months prior to the games to allow the young men and women to journey to Olympia. So though the cities were independent, it seems there were legal agreements which they all observed.-- Trevor

Justin
February 4, 2003 - 01:08 am
I commend your thought, Mal. I see two physical frontiers worthy of exploration. We have entered space successfully with the Hubble,the Mars probe, and the space station. Now it is time to expand our probe of the infinitely smaller aspects of life and the physical world. Sandia Corp. has been doing some interesting work photographing atoms and molecules. I have seen some of the early photos.

I wonder if anyone has actually seen a synapse in action. I know that clinically the synapse is measured as it occurs in the body. That is useful for diagnostic purposes. It is particularly useful for epileptics. Robby should be able to tel us more about advances in this area.

I think inward probing would be a very exciting journey.

MaryPage
February 4, 2003 - 05:09 am
The book the New York Times article mentions is the book I was telling you about that I picked up and read a lot of in Barnes & Noble on Saturday. We must leave this planet or perish.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 4, 2003 - 05:40 am
Check this out about Jerry Linenger who experienced an accident in space while he was in the space station MIR and he wrote a book called "Off The Planet" that he gave to my daughter Isabelle when they went to interview him for their documentary series on Space. The accident almost killed not only the astronauts, but if the fire had not died for lack of oxygen everything would have been lost including the now submerged Space Station MIR. JERRY LINENGER

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2003 - 06:42 am
"Greek tradition attributed the introduction of writing into Greece to Phoenicians in the fourteenth centujry B.C. and we know nothing to the countrary. The oldest Greek inscriptions, dating from the eighth and seventh centuries, show a close resemblance to the Semitic characters on the ninth-century Mosbite stone.

"These inscriptions were written, in Semitic fashion, from right to left. Sixth-century inscriptions (e.g. at Bortyna) were made alternately from right to left and from left to right. Later inscriptions are from left to right throughout, and certain letters are turned around accordingly. The Semitic names for the letters were adopted with minor modifications, but the Greeks made several basic changes.

"Above all, they added vowels, which the Semites had omitted. Certain Semitic characters denoting consonants or breathings were used to represent a, e, i, o, and u. Later the Ionians addded the long vowels eta (long e) and o-mega (long or double o).

"Ten different Greek alphabets struggled for ascendancy as part of the war of the city-states. In Greece the Ionian form prevailed, and was transmitted to eastern Europe, where it survives today.

"In Rome the Chalcidian form was adopted from Cumae to become the Latin alphabet, and ours. The Chalcidic alphabet lacked the long e and o, but unlike the Ionia, retained the Phoenician vau as a consonant (a.v with approximately the sound of w). Hence the Athenians called wine oinos, the Chalcidians called it voinos, the Romans called it vinum, we call it wine. Chalcis kept the Semitic koppa or q, and passed it on to Rome and ourselves. Ionia abandoned it, content with k.

"Ionia represened L as A, Chalcis as L. Rome straightened up the latter form and gave it to Europe. The Ionians used P for R, but in Greek Italy the P sprouted a tail, and became R."

Some of you may find all this boring to the point of tears. Others will find it absolutely fascinating.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2003 - 06:59 am
Greek Alphabet Oracle

Greek Alphabet

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2003 - 07:25 am
Click and scroll down to see the Moabite stone

robert b. iadeluca
February 4, 2003 - 05:03 pm
"In no field have the old words so regularly come down to us as in that of writing. Paper, of course, is papyrus and, once again, in the cycle of fashion, the substance is a compressed plant. A line of writing was a stichol or row. The Latins called it a versus or verse -- i.e. a turning back. The text was written in columns upon a strip of papyrus or parchment from twenty to thirty feet long, wound about a stick.

"Such a roll was called a biblos, from the Phoenician city, so named, whence papyrus came to Greece. A smaller roll was called biblion. Our Bible was originally ta biblia, the rolls. The Latins called a roll volumen -- wound up. When a roll formed part of a larger work, it was called a tomos, or cutting.

"The first sheet of a roll was called the protokollon -- i.e. the first sheet glued to the stick. The edges of the roll (Latin frontes, whence our frontispiece) were smoothed with pumice and sometimes colored. If the author could afford the expense, or the roll contained important matter, it might be warpped in a diphthera (membrane), or, as the Latins called it, a vellum.

"Since a large roll would be inconvenient for handling or reference, literary works were usually divided into several rolls, and the word biblos, or book, was applied not to each work as a whole, but to each roll or part.

"These divisions were seldom made by the author. Later editors divided the Histories of Heroditus into nine books, the Peloponnesian War of Thucydides into eight, Plato's Republic into ten, the Iliad and the Odyssey into twenty-four. Since papyrus was costly, and each copy had to be written by hand, books were very limited in the classic world.

"It was easier than now to be educated, though as hard as now to be intelligent. Reading was not a universal accomplishment. Most knowledge was handed down by oral tradition from one generation or craftsman to the next. Most literature was read aloud by trained reciters to persons who learned through the ear. Though we have been eye-minded since the development of printing, and writing is seldom read aloud, style and punctuation are still formed with a view to easy breathing in the reader, and a rhythmic sound in the words. Probably our descendants will be ear-minded again.

"There was no reading public in Greece before the seventh century. There were no Greek libaries until those collected by Polycrates and Peisistratus in the sixth. In the fifth century we hear of the private libraries of Euripides and the archon Eucleides. In the fourth, of Aristotle's. We know of no public library before Alexandria's, none in Athens until Hadrian.

"Perhaps the Greeks of Pericles' day were so great because they did not have to read many books, or any long one."

I may be the only one here but I find all this extremely fascinating!!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2003 - 05:11 pm
You're not alone, Robby, and it is fascinating.

Mal

MaryPage
February 4, 2003 - 05:11 pm
Me too, ROBBY. Just having a hard time keeping up with all I've got going just now. But AM keeping up, even though sometimes reading at half midnight!

Shasta Sills
February 4, 2003 - 05:21 pm
Why does Durant say our descendants will become ear-minded instead of eye-minded? I don't understand why he says that. Since I am increasingly bothered with cataracts, I read less than I used to and buy a lot of tapes that I listen to. I find it much harder to grasp what the lecturer is saying when I hear it than I would if I read it. I'm trying to become ear-minded but not having much luck at it.

MaryPage
February 4, 2003 - 05:23 pm
Perhaps he means we will not read much.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 4, 2003 - 05:28 pm
"Probably our descendants will be ear-minded again." but they didn't have television then, that is another ball game. I like reading a story more than listening to one.

Malryn (Mal)
February 4, 2003 - 07:13 pm
Television was around then, and I'm sure the Durants knew about it. Below is a picture of an announcement in the newspaper.

TV, 1927

TV History, first 75 years

Justin
February 4, 2003 - 11:42 pm
I read an item in this morning's paper about the New Age religion and the Vatican's response to it. The Vatican commented on the Dawning of the Age of Aquarious as opposed to the Age of Pices which as I understand it was the Age of Christ. That's where the fish symbol came from. Does anyone here know anything about this story. What are they talking about?

Justin
February 4, 2003 - 11:57 pm
Plato was pretty windy for a guy with a limited education. Everything he knew came out of a byblos. Not the sort of thing one carried into the local coffee shop for an afternoon of reading. When Ceasar burned the library at Alexandria it was byblos that burned. Codexes came along later. Guttenberg really increased the load of an educated person. Just think how much more material we've been exposed to than was Plato.

Justin
February 5, 2003 - 12:18 am
Isn't "byblos" the name of a city in the ancient middle East?

Bubble
February 5, 2003 - 02:16 am
http://www.byblossurmer.com.lb/

In Lebanon...



http://www.ce.udel.edu/faculty/cheng/wenet/cmwrpht2.html



http://www.ortmtlb.org.lb/archdiocese.htm

http://whc.unesco.org/sites/295.htm

Bubble
February 5, 2003 - 02:43 am
The post on Biblion, tomes, scrolls on vellum, was one of the most fascinating. Especially when you have had the opportunity to see nowadays still scribes writing with a sure and leisured hand letters after carefully and regularly sculpted letters in words, each on impeccable parallel lines, the whole forming beautiful vellum scrolls. No mistakes or scratching are allowed. I can tell you those scrolls are really heavy too.



I have also known unreading Africans who were teaching their sons the dynasty list of their ascendants. It was going on and on and was said with no pause or wavering of memory in a litanic "melopee" (how do u say that in English?). These kids knew how to remember too, not like our own who cannot even remember a multiplication table because they have calculators even in primary schools.
The great deeds of the tribe were memorized in the same way with lots of pathos (Greek word!) in the voice and many details to make the tale striking. That oral tradition was alive everywhere.



There are so many who do not read anymore, relying on TV and films for everything. When you talk about a great book, they reply: "I have seen that film" or " This hasn't been made into a film yet". How you could develop your imagination if you see it all made up for you? I find this fact very sad.

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2003 - 04:02 am
Items about the Age of Christ and Caesar will probably come up when we get into Durant's third volume. We still have a way to go in The Life of Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2003 - 04:12 am
Bubble:--Thank you for that informative post. Apparently scrolls and script are not as ancient as some of us might think.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2003 - 04:32 am
"The poets sang in their local dialects, and often of their native scenes, but all Hellas listened to the more eloquent voices, and stirred them now and then to broader themes. Time and prejudice have destroyed too much of this early poetry to let us feel its wealth and scope, its repeated vigor of utterance and finish of form. As we move through the isles or cities of sixth-century Greece, our wonder rises at the abundance and excellence of Greek literature before the Periclean age.

"The lyric poetry reflected an aristocratic society in which feeling, thought, and morals were free so long as they observed the amenities of breeding. This style of urbane and polished verse tended to disappear under the democracy.

"It had a rich variety of structure and meter, but seldom shackled itself with rhyme. Poetry meant to the Greeks, feeling imaginatively and rhythmically expressed."

I think of some of the phrases used here by Durant -- eloquent voices -- wealth and scope -- vigor of utterance -- finish of form -- urbane and polished verse -- rich variety of structure and meter -- feelings imaginatively and rhythmically expressed.

My memory brings to mind my high school English teacher strutting back and forth almost singing the poetry. I hear myself at home reading the poetry out loud so I could hear my own voice.

I think of Durant's remarks concerning "lyric poetry reflecting an aristocratic society" which then "disappears under democracy" -- his comment about the "amenities of breeding." I think of the poetry I heard a half century ago and the poetry which I hear nowadays.

And I wonder.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 5, 2003 - 06:41 am
Bubble - Mélopée evokes 'chant' 'lament' but not quite. I seldom see that word used now in modern French literature perhaps because it is not done anymore except in African countries. I have heard something similar to what you are describing in Inuit culture.

Malryn (Mal)
February 5, 2003 - 08:45 am
Declaiming poetry in the way of the old days has gone out of style -- for now.

Some of us elders do not like the minstrels of today, the songs they sing, and the style in which they sing them, but Bob Dylan in the sixties had plenty to say; still does. So did the Beatles and Simon and Garfunkel. These songs are real social commentaries on our present history if one takes the time to listen and try to understand.

I saw David Bowie on BBC America the other night. He sang one of the loveliest songs I've heard in a long time. It was equally as good as any classical art song I've ever sung and had as much meaning.

Epic poetry such as that written in Greece may not be written today, but poets like Allen Ginsberg and other contemporary American poets I know have had much to say which I predict will be remembered in the future.

Mal

tooki
February 5, 2003 - 10:51 am
It's cold here in Portland this morning, causing me to reflect on Rob's and the Durant's comments about reciting poetry. Where we are in "literature" seems an appropriate place to mention "The Greek Anthology," a collection of short epigrammatic poems representing Greek literature from the 7th century BC to the 10th century AD. The Durants mention it in passing a little down the line in our text, but as is their wont they simply "name drop" and give no information. This site has more information and gives examples: The Greek Anthology

Reciting Greek poetry reminded me of a language savant poet I knew once. He would recite "The Iliad," and epigrams from "The Greek Anthology," in Greek, translating as he went along. As he read and recited he sort of weaved back and forth in rhythm with the words. He called it "the heccitic (spelling?) weave." I've not found anything. Perhaps I misremember. Any help?

I should have married him; he would be so helpful to have around right now. Instead I married another poet. This poet would, in the throes of creative frenzy, stomp around the house waving his arms, reciting poetry: his own, Shakespeare, and Dylan Thomas. It was quite wonderful.

Shasta Sills
February 5, 2003 - 04:39 pm
I've spent hours reading "The Greek Anthology" link that Tooki gave us. When you read their poetry, it makes the Greeks seem more real and human to you. And if you think they didn't have a sense of humor, read the segment entitled "The Human Comedy." These are some of my favorites:

"Whoso has married once, and again seeks a second wedding, is a shipwrecked man who sails twice through a difficult gulf."

"Some say, Nycilla, that you dye your hair; which is as black as can be bought in the market."

"Eutychus the portrait painter got 20 sons, and never got one likeness, even among his children."

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2003 - 05:40 pm
Thank you very much for that link, Tooki. There are so many verses that even if we don't read them all, it gives us a good idea of the poetry of that time.

Robby

gaj
February 5, 2003 - 07:00 pm
I have just gotten back to this discussion and have much catching up to do. lol I have subscribed so I will be lurking even if I don't post.

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2003 - 08:24 pm
Good to have you with us, Ginny Ann! None of us pretend to be experts but all of us have opinions. Please share yours with us.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2003 - 08:42 pm
"Guilds of 'rhaposodes' (from raptein, to stitch together, and oide, a song)built up through generations a cycle of lays centering around the sieges of Thebes and Troy and the homing of the warriors. Song was socialized among the minstrels. Each stitched his story together from earlier fragments, and none pretended to have composed a whole sequence of these tales.

"In Chios a clan of such rhapsodes called themselves Homeridae, and claimed descent from a poet Homer who, they said, was the author of the epics that they recited throughout eastern Greece. Perhaps this blind bard was but an eponym, the imaginary ancestor of a tribe or group, like Hellen, Dorus, or Ion.

"The Greeks of the sixth century attributed to Homer not only the Iliad and the Odyssey but all the other epics then existing. The Homeric poems are the oldest epics known to us. Their very excellence, as well as their many references to earlier bards, suggest that the surviving epics stand at the end of a long line of development from simple lays to lengthy 'stitched' songs.

"In sixty-century Athens -- possibly under Solon, probably under Peisistratus -- a governmental commission selected or collated the Iliad and the Odyssey from the epic literature of the preceding centuries, assigned them to Homer, and edited -- perhaps wove -- them into substantially their present shape."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

tooki
February 5, 2003 - 09:44 pm
I have no comments about the beloved Homer, at the moment. But I want to complain that sometimes the Durants raise more questions than they answer. I, for example, am still stuck on City State Boundaries. Thet must have had them because Trevor noted that during the Olympic games people were free to pass from city-state to city-state. And Mal noted the existence of interstate commerce, indicating that boundaries could be crossed. So how did these quarrelsome, cranky, and vainglorious city-states determine where one ended and the other began? It will apparently remain a mystery. Back to Homer; my apologies for whining.

Malryn (Mal)
February 6, 2003 - 01:03 am
Because I have been twice reminded recently that I have a tendency to offend people in messages I post, I will no longer be posting in this or any other SeniorNet discussion except for WREX. It's a shame. I had darned little before. Now I have less; for which I take full responsibility.

MaryPage
February 6, 2003 - 04:26 am
TOOKI, I will have to go back and look, but I thought we read somewhere, perhaps not in our primary textbook here, that they used boundary stones. And Hermes was the god of the boundary stones.

MAL, we cannot have a joyful journey here without your research, your wonderful links, and your thoughts. I refuse to even entertain for one nanosecond the notion of your leaving us in the lurch, Girlfriend!

Bubble
February 6, 2003 - 04:28 am
Mal!!!! Don't be hasty: put on the scale those sorry to lose your insignt against the others, will you? Bubble

Bubble
February 6, 2003 - 05:06 am
In all of us, even in good men, there is a lawless wild-beast nature, which peers out in sleep. -Socrates, philosopher (469?-399 BCE)

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2003 - 06:08 am
Tooki:--Imagine if we had all the answers and there was nothing to ask. How boring!!

"It is one of the miracles of literature that poems so complex in origin achieved in the end so artistic a result. It is quite true that both in language and in structure the Iliad falls considerably this side of perfection -- that Aeolian and Ionic forms are mingled as if by some polyglot Smyrnan, and that the meter requires now one dialect and now the other -- that the plot is marred by inconsistencies, changes of plan and emphasis, and contradictions of character -- that the same heroes are killed two or three times over in the course of the tale -- that the original theme -- the wrath of Achilles and its results -- is interrupted and obscured by a hundred episodes apparently taken from other lays and sewn into the epic at every seam.

"Nevertheless, in its larger aspects the story is one, the language is powerful, and vivid, the poem is all in all 'the greatest that ever sounded on the lips of men.' Such an epic could have been begun only in the active and exuberant youth of the Greeks, and could have been completed only in their artistic maturity. Its characters are nearly all warriors or their women. Even the philosophers, like Nestor, put up an enviably good fight.

"These individuals are intimately and sympathetically conceived. Perhaps the finest thing in all Greek literature is the unbiased manner in which we are made to feel now with Hector and now with Achilles.

"In his tent Achilles is a thorougholy unheroic and unlikable figure, complaining to his mother than his luck does not befit his semidivinity, and that Agamemnon has stolen his plum, the unhappy Briseis -- letting the Greeks die by the thousands while he eats and pouts and sleeps in his ship or his tent -- sending Patroclus unaided to death, and then rending the air with unmanly lamentations.

"When finally he goes into battle he is not stirred by patriotism but mad with grief over the loss of his friend. In his rage he loses all decency, and sinks to savage cruelty with both Lycaon and Hector. In truth he is an undeveloped mind, unsettled and uncontrolled, and overshadowed with prophecies of death. He says to the fallen Lycaon, who sues for mercy: 'Nay, friend, die like another! What wouldst thou vainly weeping? Patroclus died, who was far better than thou. Look upon me! Am I not beautiful and tall, and sprung of a good father, and a goddess the mother that bare me? Yet, lo, Death is over me, and the mighty hand of Doom. There cometh a dawn of day, a noon or an evening, and a hand that I know not shall lay me dead.

"So he stabs the unresisting Lycaon through the neck, flings the body into the river, and makes one of those grandiose speeches that adorn the slaughter in the Iliad, and laid the foundation for oratory among the Greeks.

"Half of Hellas worshiped Achilles for centuries as a god. We accept him, and forgive him, as a child. At the worst he is one of the supreme creations of the poetic mind."

I am intrigued by a poem that is written and gradually changes over a period of decades if not centuries -- a poem which, according to Durant, reflects the youthfulness and gradual maturity of the Greek people as time passes. The nations of Western civilization are comparatively young yet could we say that the poetry written by their citizens is different now from the style and content of a couple of centuries ago? Do these poems show to us the original youthfulness and approaching maturity?

I wonder -- exactly what is the story that is told and commented upon by Durant? What is the symbolism? And are we to look at this as a literary expert would look at a poem or as as a philosopher would look at behavior?

Robby

tooki
February 6, 2003 - 07:27 am
Yo, girl, what's up? Here in the hood we all buds. Tough maybe, but all buds. Please do not leave us. It's acceptable to be offended, hurt, and wish to depart a mean situation, but, hey, to leave us is a bit much. Here's what Theognis of Megara said:
"Try for nothing excessive. The middle degree is best. So,
Mal, you will win virtue, a difficult thing to attain."

I was counting on you to find something about this so called "Hiscettic Weave." Whatever that might be.

tooki
February 6, 2003 - 07:50 am
Do not, I repeat, do not, philosophize. Save that for philosophy. Find the human values in the poetry. That takes soul searching and analysis. Besides, translations vary, and poetry can handle variations in meaning. Philosophy must be exact, unless you are talking about something like, "Philosophy of life," about which I know nothing.
Now that I have mastered how to make a break on the page, here's a poem for Shasta illustrating the difference in meaning a translation makes.
Alcman of Sparta
This is not Aphrodite, but the lewd Love-boy, playing
like a child, running the flowers, across the do-not-touch-me meadow
grass


Wandering Love
It is not Aphrodite but riotous Eros who is
playing like a child,
scutting down across the tips of meadow ferns.
Please do not crush them.

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2003 - 08:11 am
Tooki:--Your comparisons there were most helpful.

I am glad you have "mastered making breaks." When a paragraph is too long, it becomes harder to read and often people will just skip it.

Robby

Shasta Sills
February 6, 2003 - 10:04 am
Yes, I was thinking as I read the English translations: what did they sound like in Greek? Poetry, more than prose, is fused into the language in which it is written. You can translate the content, but not the original music.

Mal, what on earth are you talking about? I can't think of anything you've said that was offensive. If anybody gets offensive, it's usually me, but I never worry about it. I just go charging merrily along, dodging the rocks that are thrown at me.

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2003 - 10:06 am
Can any one here give me a definition of poetry? It doesn't have to rhyme so how do I know it is poetry?

Robby

BaBi
February 6, 2003 - 10:20 am
I'm no expert on the subject, Robby, but to me poetry has a flow, a inner rhythm of its own, and imagery that captures the imagination.

Rhyming, as you noted, is not at all considered necessary these days. I'm not up on the modern poetry, but I can't recall anything current that actually had the traditional rhyming patterns. So I prefer my definition. I'm open to other opinions, of course. ..Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2003 - 10:32 am
Welcome to our family, BaBi!!

But can't good prose have flow, rhythm, and imagery? I am confused.

Robby

BaBi
February 6, 2003 - 10:33 am
Oh, for that, Robby, you just have to look for the short lines! <BG> ...Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2003 - 10:35 am
I knew there had to be an answer I could understand!!

Robby

tooki
February 6, 2003 - 11:17 am
Your post 302: "Boundary stones" are good, maybe because they remind me of "cairns," the piles of stones, topped by a buffalo skull, used by the Plains Indians to mark territory.


However, how did they decide where they would go? The Plains Indians arbitarily placed them. I.e., they didn't feel strongly about boundaries being too accurate. I can't beleive the Greeks were so thoughtful. The Indians mostly didn't think they owned the land; the Greeks did.

tooki
February 6, 2003 - 11:32 am
You folks must forgive me for being so gabby. I am between projects. As soon as I start another one I won't have the time to run on at the mouth so much. I appreciate your thoughfullness in putting up with me.


However, and I am not being facetious, poetry is what poets do. That's why it changes as the culture changes. No poet, or bunches of poets, could turn out something like "The Iliad" today. Even the wonderful "Dover Beach," by Matthew Arnold, written on the brink of a 19th century war, couldn't be written today.


For we are here
as on a darkning shore,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.


It's not simple minded, really. There's good poetry and bad poetry, subject to certains rules, rhythms, and sounds, but if a "poet" calls it poetry, take it seriously and read it.


But, these are my views; I could be wrong.

Mary W
February 6, 2003 - 12:35 pm
For those like me who have no contact with others any longer these groups are a Godsend. They not only provide a warm feeling of relationshi with others but additional intellectual stimulation as well. In all the groups to which she has contributed Mal has always been a source of truth, knowledge and integrity. To lose her input would be a major disaster.

In all my nearly eigty-eight years I have never been hurt by the differing opinion of another. All thoughtul people have opinions and, thank goodness, they differ. This wiould be a stultifying world if we all thought and spoke alike. To those of you who have been somehow wounded I must say please look at the words objectively. They were not intended to distress you personally. They were (and for the life of me I cannot find what they could possibly have been) the thoughtful writing of an honest and gifted writer. Accept them as just that. They were not intended to assault you.

For Mal: Please reconsider. You have given us so much. I, for one, am most grateful. Come back little Mal.

moxiect
February 6, 2003 - 01:10 pm
A professional I am not. I hope this helps to understand poetry!

ON A STEAMY SUMMER NIGHT UNDER A BLANKET OF STARS SHINNING BRIGHT OUR THIRST WAS HIGH AND IT WAS LATE MY FRIENDS AND I DECIDED TO TEMPT FATE WE PILED INTO OUR LITTLE OLD CAR THAT COULDN'T GO TOO FAR.

TO MAKE THE CAR GO WE HAD TO BLOW THE HORN, ONE, TWO, THREE THE REST IS ITS HISTORY!!!!!

IT ROLLED DOWN THE HILL AND STOPPED AT THE NEIGHBORHOOD BAR CAUSE YOU SEE, IT COULDN'T GO FAR. WE HAD JUST TIME FOR A SHORT BREW BUT IT WASN'T ENOUGH OUR THIRST GREW.

BACK INTO OUR LITTLE OLD CAR WE DID GO AND THE HORN WE DID BLOW ONE TWO THREE THE REST IS ITS HISTORY!!!!!

THE COLOR OF OUR LITTLE CAR WAS LIGHT BLUE IT WAS TRULY FAITHFUL AND TRUE IT FENDERS WERE DENTED AND TIRES WERE SPENT IT CONTINUED ON ACROSS THE STATE LINE WERE WE HAD TIME FOR ANOTHER SHORT BREW OUR THIRST WAS SATISFIED

BACK INTO OUR LITTLE OLD CAR WE DID GO AND THE HORN WE DID BLOW ONE TWO THREE THE REST IS ITS HISTORY!!!!!

ON OUR WAY BACK IT SPUTTERED AS IT CROSSED THE TRACKS. IT SHIVERED AS IT CREPT CROSS THE BRIDGE WE NEAR A VERY HIGH RIDGE. AND THEN IT HAPPENED NO, IT'S SPIRIT WASN'T DAMPENED.

A BRAND NEW CAR WENT SPEEDING BY IT REALLY COULD FLY ANOTHER CAR TOO WITH ITS FLASHING LIGHTS OF RED AND BLUE. BOTH OF THEM FRIGHTENED OUR LITTLE OLD FRIEND.

THE CAR THAT COULDN'T GO FAR NEVERMORE WOULD TRAVEL TO A NEARBY BAR. EVEN WHEN WE BLEW THE HORN ONE, TWO, THREE. AND THAT'S ITS HISTORY.

Mal, please come back here! I look forward to all the wonderful informative links you provide us all.

Justin
February 6, 2003 - 01:20 pm
Alright, Mal, who told you to stop offending people? I'll punch them in the nose. Your offenses are what we post here for. Offense is the nature of the history beast. Someone always feels attached to some interpretation of history and feels a personal responsibility for protecting it from attack. Stick with it, Mal. Your work is appreciated.

Persian
February 6, 2003 - 08:24 pm
ROBBY - For me, poetry are words (or sounds) that really "touch" my heart; make me think; stop and reflect; wonder; reach out to explore; understand something a bit more; realize that I, too, may have had a similar experience as the poet. For me, poetry is also the love and affection one experiences and transmits to paper - a card, a joyful letter, even an email message. Poetry is in the alignment of military men and women marching in unison; of a beautiful woman simply passing across my vision; of a Dad with a baby in his arms; of a grandparent on a scooter alongside her/his grandchild. Poetry is many things, each with its own treasure for the beholder.

MAL - Poetry is friendship. Stick around.

Justin
February 6, 2003 - 09:27 pm
Welcome Home, Mahlia. Your sense of the poetic is my sense of the poetic. It is visual and it is aural. It is the universal sights and sounds of life. Just as you have said, it is the image of a baby in the arms of his father. It is a beautiful woman. It is a grandchild and grandfather together sharing an experience. I read Whitman from time to time and I often find images there that delight me. So too with Keats. Even that old crow Ezra Pound turns me on with his round house cantos.

Justin
February 6, 2003 - 10:54 pm
I went back over the last 150 posts rereading everything that Mal has posted and I can find nothing that anyone in this discussion group would, in my judgement, consider offensive. What's up?

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2003 - 06:05 am
Mahlia:--So nice to hear from you from time to time. Your post sounded, itself, like poetry.

Robby

MaryPage
February 7, 2003 - 06:11 am
MAHLIA! I've been thinking about you, and wondering, and missing you more than you can know!

Beautiful posting re your sense of poetry. Thank you. Hope you will find the time to stay and travel through time with us.

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2003 - 06:35 am
"What carried us along through the Iliad when we do not have to study or translate it is not merely these characterizations, so numerous and diverse, nor merely the flow and turmoil of the tale, but the rushing splendor of the verse. It must be admitted that Homer repeats as well as nods. It is part of his plan to recall as in refrain certain epithets and lines. He sings with fond repetition, of Emos d'erigeneia phane rhododactylos Eos -- 'when appeared the morning's daughter, rosy-fingered Dawn.'

"If these are flaws they are lost in the brilliance of the language, and the wealth of similes that now and then, amid the shock of war, calm us with the quiet beauty of peaceful fields. 'As when flies in swarming myriads haunt the herdsman's stalls in spring time, when new milk has filled the pails -- in such vast multitudes mustered the long-haired Greeks upon the plain.'

"The Odyssey is so different from all this that from the outset one suspects its separate authorship. Even some of the Alexandrian scholars suggested this, and all the critical authority of Aristarchus was required to hush the dispute.

"The Odyssey agrees with the Iliad in certain standard phrases -- 'owl-eyed Athena,' 'long-haired Greeks,' 'wine-dark sea,' 'rosy-fingered Dawn' -- which may have been taken from the same hoard and poetical tradition into which the authors of the Iliad had dipped their pens. But the Odyssey contains an array of words apparently brought into use after the Iliad was composed.

"In the second epic we hear frequently of iron, where the earlier one spoke of bronze. We hear of writing, of private property in land, of freedmen and emancipation -- none of which are mentioned in the Iliad. The very gods and their functions are different.

"The meter is the same dactylic hexameter, as in all the Greek epics. The style and spirit and substance are so far from the Iliad that if one author wrote both poems he was a paragon of complexity and a master of all moods.

"The new poet is more literary and philosophical, less violent and warlike, than the old, more self-conscious and meditative, leisurely and civilized. So gentle, indeed, that Bentley thought the Odyssey had been composed for the special benefit of women."

As I read these poetic phrases, I think of my high school English teacher who constantly brought us back to Page 288. (Yes, Miss Goodrich, I still remember that page). This was the section about "parts of speech" -- similes, metaphors, etc. Just these brief phrases that Durant quotes are simile after metaphor. Dawn is "the morning's daughter." The Greeks mustered in multitudes "as swarming flies." And I begin to realize that their "religion" (in my opinion) was nothing more than giant metaphors. The gods were like humans.

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Bubble
February 7, 2003 - 06:50 am
After fifty years, rhododactylos Eos is still vivid music to my ears.

The mythology was not a religion to my eyes, it was a mythical human world, absorbingly interesting, as intriguing as the local gossips whispered in our small town.



Unfortunately this world is disappearing since classical studies are not encouraged anymore and youngsters read less and less. They will have a WaltDisney's colored image of the ancient world and of the Illiad, not the scanded glory we experienced as students. Bubble

MaryPage
February 7, 2003 - 07:08 am
Well, YES! I've been contending that, ROBBY. Their gods were not only representations of every type of human being, and in possession of every attribute each type of human being owns, BUT many of their gods had actually been human beings who were promoted to higher rank upon their death! Heroes. Generals. Famous wives or vamps. Great athletes.

First, we acquired conscious thinking. Then we started wondering why we exist and WHO put us here. It was quite natural that we figured there must be someTHING or someONE very parent-like, but BIGGER than our parents, because that Power had actually PUT our parents here. We invented the term "god" and "spirit", in whatever our language, and figured there was one for every natural formation, type of topography, form of weather, human emotion, and every type of good or bad fortune which befell us. Along our journey, though not here in Ancient Greece, a few thought there might be only One God, period. Meanwhile, quite a few more, and this included our present location in Ancient Greece, thought there must at the very least be a HEAD GOD.

We will follow the trail of the various beliefs as we continue with this and then read through the coming volumes of our Story of Civilization. Hey, we now know where we got the word "volume". Me, I'm still sitting here wondering why, since it is volume, column isn't colume, or the reverse be true, and column and volumn be the way it goes.

tooki
February 7, 2003 - 08:20 am
MaryPage, that's one way to look at it. I don't disagree with it, but what I find fascinating is the dawning of consciousness. Why are we conscious? How did we get it? Once humans had consciousness, anything follows.

Giant Metaphors: I agree. Much of what the human consciousness spews out is in the guise of images, similes, metaphors. Karl Jung, among others, spent his time trying to decipher them. Do they really mean anything? Or is it the function of human consciousness to manufacture "stuff?" "Full of sound and fury, signifing nothing," T.S. Eliot.

Rob - Don't you see this in your work? Don't you spent time helping patients understand the meaning of the output of their minds?

moxiect
February 7, 2003 - 08:29 am
With all this discourse about Gods, Myths etc I am learning a great deal through this discussion. One question - How did we get here in the first place?

MaryPage
February 7, 2003 - 09:04 am
How we got here in the first place is, to me, a matter of scientific study of fact, and not philosophical reasoning or religious dogma.

We have come a long, long way in this study, and current consensus holds the tiniest form of life came here on asteroid bits many, many eons ago, when this planet had cooled enough to allow them to survive and multiply here. We were one big planet and mostly ocean then. This (or these) life form lived in that ocean. Scientists have traced us all the way back to the flat worm and the sponge, of all things! There have been quite a few documentaries about this shown on PBS channels and on the DISCOVERY channel. There are a lot of new books on the subject, as well. I am just waiting for the "I Was Never A Flat Worm" protests to begin, as per the "I Am Not Descended From Apes" ones.

tooki
February 7, 2003 - 09:57 am
I can't resist. The flatworm theory explains, then, Jungian Archtypes about slithering, sliding, dark holes in the earth, and caves.

Bubble
February 7, 2003 - 09:59 am
MaryPage, "I Was Never A Flat Worm", I was a round Worm!!! Could you imagine a flat Bubble? lol

BaBi
February 7, 2003 - 04:04 pm
If you want to look at a scientific basis for the origin of creation, why not go all the way down to the basics. What is the basic structure of all matter, organic or inorganic? Go down past the molecules, past the atoms to the quarks, and you arrive at pure energy. You, me, the stones and the sea. So what holds it all together, this vast energy, and causes it to take on the various patterns that became you, me, the stones, the sea..all the universe? ...Babi

tooki
February 7, 2003 - 04:39 pm
This is for himself, who asked this morning, "What is poetry? THIS is Poetry?

Persian
February 7, 2003 - 05:22 pm
I realize that this is a discussion about Ancient Greece, but y'all could be perfectly at home in ancient Zoroastrian Persia and a little bit at home among the contemporary Zoroastrian community.

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2003 - 07:06 pm
Tooki:--You are so correct. I use metaphors all the time in my work. I have been told on more than one occasion by patients that they find it easy to understand what I am trying to get across because I naturally draw analogies. As you see, I am not only a superlative psychologist, I am also humble.

I have printed out your link on "What is Poetry" and will read it in detail at leisure.

Robby

Faithr
February 7, 2003 - 07:17 pm
Tooki thanks for the link that answers the question What is poetry? I found it refreshing after some of the books I have read (and still refer to while I construct poetry) on the Art and Craft of poetry.

I think man has always stood and declaimed the heroic deeds of their "tribe" around the fire, in royal halls, around the council table, on the podium. Sometimes it became epic poetry. Faith

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2003 - 07:41 pm
"These poems -- sole survivors of a long succession of epics -- became the most precious element in the literary heritage of Greece. 'Homer' was the staple of Greek education -- the repository of Greek myth -- the source of a thousand dramas -- the foundation of moral training -- and strangest of all -- the very Bible of orthodox theology.

"It was Homer and Hesiod, said Herodotus, who gave definite and human form to the Olympians, and order to the hierarchy of heaven. There is much that is magnificent in Homer's gods, and we come to like them for their failings. Scholars have long detected in the poets who pictured them a rollicking skepticism hardly befitting a national Bible. These deities quarrel like relatives, fornicate like fleas, and share with mankind what seemed to Alexander the stigmata of mortality -- the need for love and sleep. They do everything human but hunger and die.

"Not one of them could bear comparison with Odysseus in intelligence, with Hector in heroism, with Andromache in tenderness, or with Nestor in dignity. Only a poet of the sixth century, versed in Ionian doubt, could have made such farcelings of the gods.

"It is one of the humors of history that these epics, in which the Olympians hve essentially the function of comic relief, were reverenced throughout Hellas as props of respectable morality and belief. Eventually the anomaly proved explosive. The humor destroyed the belief, and the moral development of men rebelled against the superseded morals of the gods."

"The humor destroyed the belief." An interesting concept. In visiting the Oriental civilizations, I don't remember much humor in their religions.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2003 - 04:38 am
Most people have heard about the Olympics but only a small percentage of the population has read or studied about the Ancient Greeks or just exactly what the Olympics were 2,500 years ago. Durant (see GREEN quotes in Heading above) will now lead us from the start of "game-playing" in Greece through the steps that took them to what was later called the Olympics.

"Men went to Olympia, Delphi, Corinth, and Nemes not so much to honor the gods -- for these could be honored anywhere -- as to witness the heroic contests of chosen athletes, and the ecumenical assemblage of varied Greeks. Alexander, who could see Greece from without, considered Olympia the capital of the Greek world.

"Here under the rubric of athletics we find the real religion of the Greeks -- the worship of health, beauty, and strength. Said Simonides, 'To be in health is the best thing for man -- the next best, to be of form and nature beautiful -- the third, to enjoy wealth gotten without fraud -- and the fourth, to be in youth's bloom among friends.' Said the Odyssey, 'There is no greater glory for a man as long as he lives than that which he wins by his own hands and feet.'

"Perhaps it was necessary for an aristocratic people, living among slaves more numerous than themselves and frequently called upon to defend their soil against more populous nations, to keep in good condition. Ancient war depended upon physical vigor and skill, and these were the original aim of the contests that filled Hellas with the noise of their fame.

"We must not think of the average Greek as a student and lover of Aeschylus or Plato. Rather, like the typical Briton or American, he was interested in sport, and his favored athletes were his earthly gods."

"Typical" person interested in sport. Favored athletes as "earthly gods." Ring a bell?

Robby

Bubble
February 8, 2003 - 05:01 am
Humor for the western or for the oriental mind? I don't think they are the same.

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2003 - 05:07 am
Most people have heard about the Olympics but only a small percentage of the population has read or studied about the Ancient Greeks or just exactly what the Olympics were 2,500 years ago. Durant (see GREEN quotes in Heading above) will now lead us from the start of "game-playing" in Greece through the steps that took them to what was later called the Olympics.

"Men went to Olympia, Delphi, Corinth, and Nemes not so much to honor the gods -- for these could be honored anywhere -- as to witness the heroic contests of chosen athletes, and the ecumenical assemblage of varied Greeks. Alexander, who could see Greece from without, considered Olympia the capital of the Greek world.

"Here under the rubric of athletics we find the real religion of the Greeks -- the worship of health, beauty, and strength. Said Simonides, 'To be in health is the best thing for man -- the next best, to be of form and nature beautiful -- the third, to enjoy wealth gotten without fraud -- and the fourth, to be in youth's bloom among friends.' Said the Odyssey, 'There is no greater glory for a man as long as he lives than that which he wins by his own hands and feet.'

"Perhaps it was necessary for an aristocratic people, living among slaves more numerous than themselves and frequently called upon to defend their soil against more populous nations, to keep in good condition. Ancient war depended upon physical vigor and skill, and these were the original aim of the contests that filled Hellas with the noise of their fame.

"We must not think of the average Greek as a student and lover of Aeschylus or Plato. Rather, like the typical Briton or American, he was interested in sport, and his favored athletes were his earthly gods."

"Typical" person interested in sport. Favored athletes as "earthly gods." Ring a bell?

Robby

tooki
February 8, 2003 - 06:59 am
BaBi, in Post 333, says the basic building block of the world is pure energy, and some of us wonder why poetry and what it is. Dylan Thomas puts them together.

"The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age...
The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood..."


And, finally, most of us here should treasure his


"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."


Is this more than you cared to know about poetry, Fearless Leader?

Bubble
February 8, 2003 - 08:27 am
Destiny. (Harold Broude)



In the end we return
to where we belong.
To the vast interstellar spaces.
To the comets way
Where the star-swirls throng.
Where you don't need no dentures or braces.

tooki
February 8, 2003 - 08:54 am
It is perhaps somewhat early in the discussion of this section to be posting a site. But this site presents such a contemporary view that it warrents inclusion early.
The Real Lowdown

Shasta Sills
February 8, 2003 - 09:02 am
I don't log on here often enough, and the discussion leaves me behind. But Robby, do you think the Greeks always saw humor in their gods? It was only when they began to see how ludicrous these gods were, that they ceased to believe in them.

The essay on poetry was really interesting. It wouldn't hurt for all of us to take some lessons from it, whether we write poetry or not. "Do not go gentle into that dark night" is my theme song. It suits my belligerant nature. I say dark rather than good though.

The things you learn on the computer! As a Southerner, I never thought I would hear a Persian say y'all!

MaryPage
February 8, 2003 - 11:20 am
SHASTA, "do not go gentle into that good night" often flows like a river through my thoughts, as well. I always feel so sorry for the last 2 generations, because they never had to memorize this lovely stuff, and bits and pieces of it do bob up to the top of the memory to serve as special prescriptions in time of emotional neediness. If the words have never been studied and learned, they cannot be of such solace to us.

I often remember "Build Thee more stately mansions, O' My Soul." Also, "I have a rendezvous with Death!" How about "So live, that when thy summons comes to join the innumerable caravan, which moves to that mysterious realm, where each shall take his chamber in the silent halls of death, Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night, ...."

Justin
February 8, 2003 - 03:47 pm
The words of Ogden Nash written to his true love before marriage...

Purity Is Obscurity.

BaBi
February 8, 2003 - 03:48 pm
I think instead of "humors of history", ironies of history would have been more accurate. The shortcomings of these 'gods' were not humorous, they came to be seen as embarassing and ludicrous.

ROBBY, your analogy between Greek athletics and sports and the adulation of athletes today is all too accurate. Only ours get rewarded with a whole lot more than a laurel wreath! ..Babi

Justin
February 8, 2003 - 03:56 pm
It is clear to me that athletic games for participant and observer are more important than personal safety and the welfare of one's family. If Saddam attacked us on Superbowl Sunday he would have to wait till the game ended before receiving a response from us. The Athenians thus responded to such an attack and lost the subsequent battle. I don't remember the opponent.

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2003 - 05:31 pm
"Greek games were private, local, municipal, and Panhellenic. Even the fragmentary remains of antiquity reveal an interesting range of sports. A relief in the Athens Museum shows on one side a wrestling match, on another a hockey game. Swimming, bareback riding, throwing or dodging missiles while mounted, were not so much sports as general accomplishments of all citizens. Hunting became a sport when it ceased to be a necessity.

"Ball games were as varied then as now, and as popular. At Sparta the terms ballplayer and youth were synonyms. Special rooms were built in the palaestra for games of ball. These rooms were called sphairisteria, and the teachers were sphairistai. On another relief we see men bouncing a ball against the floor or the wall, and striking it back with the flat of the hand. We do not know whether the players did this in turn as in modern handball.

"One ball game resembled Canadian lacrosse, being a form of hockey played with racquets."

Robby

Justin
February 8, 2003 - 10:40 pm
One of the games played by qualified Greeks was chariot racing.There is a sculptural image in stone and in bronze of a charioteer that is one of the only survivors of Greek art work. I think it is the bronze we have in captivity. Most classical bronzes were melted down for more important uses over the centuries. The "Charioteer" stands so straight, the piece resembles a pillar. Such posture is not natural in a charioteer. The work is an outgrowth of pillared Hermes that were popular at that time.

Another example of an athlete at play may be seen in Myron's "Discobolus". This is a very different work. The athlete appears in the act of tossing the disk. It is of course a later work than the "Charioteer".

I miss Mal, at this point. She would come in here with images for us to examine. I hope her absence is not long.

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 06:13 am
Click HERE for illustrations of ancient chariot racing.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 06:27 am
Further info about SPORTS in Ancient Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 06:38 am
This LINK will give you all the details about Ancient Locker Rooms!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 06:42 am
Further info about SPORTS in Ancient Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 06:50 am
Here are some interesting FACTS about the different types of sports as they were practiced.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 07:29 am
Those of you who enjoy comparing the ancient past with the present will enjoy this ARTICLE in this morning's NY Times.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 07:45 am
Durant continues:--

"From these private sports came local and incidental games, as after the death of a hero like Patroclus, or the successful issue of some great enterprise, like the march of Xenophon's Ten Thousand to the sea. Then came municipal games, in which the contestants represented various localities and groups within one city-state.

"Almost but not quite international were the quadrennial Panathenaic games, established by Peisistratus in 566. Here the entries were mostly from Attica, but outsiders were welcomed. Besides the usual athletic events there were chariot races, a torch race, a rowing race, musical competitions for voice, harp, lyre, and flute, dances, and recitations, chiefly from Homer. Each of the ten divisions of Attica was represented by twenty-four men chosen for their health, vigor, and good looks. A prize was awarded to the most impressive twenty-four for 'fine manhood.'

"Since athletics were necessary for war, and yet would die without competitions, the cities of Greece, to provide the highest stimulus, arranged Panhellenic games. The oldest of these were organized as a regular quadrennial event at Olympia in 776 B.C. -- the first definite date in Greek history.

"Originally confined to Eleans, within a century they were drawing entries from all Greece. By 476 the list of victors ranged from Sinope to Marseilles. The feast of Zeus became an international holyday. A truce was proclaimed to all wars in Greece for the month of the festival, and fines were levied by the Eleans upon any Greek state in whose territory a traveler to the games suffered molestation.

"Philip of Macedon humbly paid a fine because some of his soldiers had robbed an Athenian en route to Olympia."

Robby

tooki
February 9, 2003 - 07:54 am
I'm no Mal, but here's the Charioteer

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 07:58 am


VERY VERY good, Tooki! I hunted for that and couldn`t find it.

Robby

tooki
February 9, 2003 - 08:06 am
Here,too,The Discus Thrower

Any more, Justin? The computer responds best to specific requests. I can't do many at once because I'm dysletic, and it hurts my head a lot!

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 08:07 am
GREAT! I yield to your skills.

Robby

tooki
February 9, 2003 - 08:21 am
Thanks. It's not the searching. It's the HTML. This < looks to me very much the same as >. It is difficult for me to memorize the code. It's ok. You ought to be my flashcards.

tooki
February 9, 2003 - 08:22 am
That's, you ought to SEE my flashcards.

MaryPage
February 9, 2003 - 09:17 am
Did you get that? On page 213. The Durants tell us that the oldest Panhellenic games were put together at Olympia in 776 B.C., and they go on to state that this is the first definite date in Greek History! I suppose every other date, prior to this one, is a guesstimate. Or are they merely saying this is the first definite date for the games? Nah! Will Durant was too precise, too careful. I think he was saying quite explicitly that this is the first date in all of Greek History that they were actually able to pin down and know it is exactly correct!

When they said The feast of Zeus became an international holyday;, I found myself wondering if, much, much later, holyday became holiday. Anyone know? I have never entertained this thought before, and am wondering why I have not. I am talking about English here, obviously, and not Greek, but our text is written in English and that is the place I stopped and wondered.

Married women were not allowed to attend the festival;Humph! Well, ROBBY will not have expected me to let that one pass without at least on Humph or Pshaw!

Shasta Sills
February 9, 2003 - 09:26 am
But MaryPage, I always just assumed holyday became holiday.

There's one difference between the Greek locker rooms and modern locker rooms. You sure won't find Plato giving lectures in today's locker rooms.

And did you notice that when a statue fell on a man and killed him, the statue was legally convicted of murder. Just when you admire the Greeks' intelligence, they come up with something like that.

Faithr
February 9, 2003 - 10:13 am
Now days they would sue the owner of the statue and collect millions heheheh faith

robert b. iadeluca
February 9, 2003 - 06:21 pm
"We picture the pilgrams and athletes starting out from distant cities, a month ahead of time, to come together at the games. It was a fair as well s a festival. The plain was covered not only with the tents that sheltered the visitors from the July heat, but with the booths where a thousand concessionaires exposed for sale everything from wine and fruit to horses and statuary, while acrobats and conjurors performed their tricks for the crowd. Some juggled balls in the air, others performed marvels of agility and skill, others ate fire or swallowed swords. Modes of amusement, like forms of superstition, enjoy a reverend antiquity.

"Famous orators like Gorgias, famous sophists like Hippias, perhaps famous writers like Herodotus, delivered addresses or recitations from the porticoes of the temple of Zeus. It was a special holiday for men, since married women were not allowed to attend the festival. These had their own games at the feast of Hera. Menander summed up such a scene in five words:--"crowd, market, acrobats, amusements, thieves.'

"The athletes (from athlos, a contest) were selected by local and municipal elinmination trials, after which they submoitted for ten months to rigorous training under professional paidotribai (literally, youth rubbers) and gymnastai. Arrived at Olympia, they were examined by the officials, and took an oath to observe all the rules.

"Irregularities were rare. We hear of Euolis bribing other boxers to lose to him, but the penalty and dishonor attached to such ofenses were discouragingly great.

"When everything was ready, the athletes were led into the stadium. As they entered, a herald announced their names and the cities that had entered them. All the contestants, whatever their age or rank, were naked. Occasionally a girdle might be worn at the loins. Of the stadium itself nothing remains but the narrow stone slabs toed by the runners at the starting point.

"The 45,000 spectators kept their places in the stadium all day long, suffering from insects, heat, and thirst. Hats were forbidden, the water was bad, and flies and mosquitoes infested the place as they do today. Sacrifices were offered at frequent intervals to Zeus Averter of Flies."

Robby

Justin
February 9, 2003 - 11:40 pm
There are very few sculptural pieces from 6th century Greece depicting athletic activity. There are three sculptural reliefs from the bases of larger figures by Endoios at the Athens National Museum showing athletes playing games- a hockey game in progress, jumpers, javelin throwers, wrestlers,and ball players. Retrieving these images which are worthwhile, will be difficult, but Mal can do it I'm sure. One piece was found near the Piraeus Gate. The other is from the base of a Kouros at the Themistoclean wall. These athletic depictions were done about 500 BCE.

A bronze jumper also exists at the Athens National Museum. His hands are in the position of one who carried jumper weights. This piece is dated about 520BCE. All these pieces are from the late Archaic period.

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2003 - 06:12 am
From time to time in this discussion group we pause to compare events in Ancient Greece with events happening nowadays. In less than 18 months the Summer Olympics will take place in Athens. These Olympics are (or are supposed to be) modeled after the Olympic sports and attitudes we are currently examining in this forum.

Click onto 21ST CENTURY OLYMPICS to see what is going on these days.

Robby

tooki
February 10, 2003 - 07:16 am
There's a lot out there (or is it, in here) about the Olympics. I particularly liked this one:Man and Woman Boxing

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2003 - 07:31 am
That's a great link, Tooki. Keep it up!

Robby

BaBi
February 10, 2003 - 08:52 am
Robby, I was especially taken by the description of the crowds, with the entertainers, concessionaires and thieves. I just read Terry Pratchetts "Guards! Guards!" In it he depicts scenes where a dragon is threatening the city. In the crowd, even in face of disaster, were the entrepreneurs selling dragon charms, dragon dolls, and suspicious sausage in somewhat grimy bread wraps. Just business! ...Babi

tooki
February 10, 2003 - 10:05 am
I watch boxing on TV (because I think it about the only real stuff on TV). This ancient Greek boxer is a great favorite of mine. I have seen him refered to as "The Blind Gladiator." The Boxer</A.

Another View:
The Boxer Again

MaryPage
February 10, 2003 - 11:26 am
THE DEMISE OF PLANET EARTH


One of my granddaughters phoned to say she has to sing an aria from the opera SEMELE for an audition, and to ask if I had a CD of that opera. I had to admit it is one opera I have neither seen nor heard of (and I am an opera buff), BUT, thanks to our study here, I DID know all about Semele! Hey, every little bit of knowledge is helpful!

Persian
February 10, 2003 - 07:21 pm
Do you think that contemporary athletes like Michael Jackson, the Williams sisters or former wrestler (and now Gov.) Jessie Ventura will hold the same interest of readers (posters?) of history that we exhibit about the Olympic athletes? Will there be an understanding of the importance of sports vs business vs entertainment? Or will the athletes of the 20th and 21st centuries be understood only as entertainers (albeit wealthy ones)? How will racial equality (or the lack thereof) in certain sports be understood in the future. Why are blacks drawn to basketball in such large numbers, but not to skiing or table tennis? Economics? Prestige? How will "our" Olympiads be viewed by future generations?

Malryn (Mal)
February 10, 2003 - 09:44 pm
The heck with being invisible when there's so much to say and so much to do. I've been advised by people who know about these things that a "modicum" of courtesy would be a good idea when I post messages, so I hope anything I say is within your idea of "mod", modus, dictum, dictatum or whatever. If it isn't, you have my blessing to report my misdemeanors to wherever one reports such complants.

Am I mad about a lot of stuff? You bet I am.

Games may be part of a culture, but games do not a civilization make. What awards were given to Olympic victors? Plaques, prestige and money? So do these victors RULE? I don't think so.

There's a lot to be learned from games, especially chess where strategy brings a winner. Brains over brawn; remember that. The ruler with the brains uses the muscles of the Olympiads, not vice versa. What we call Olympics today are a small show of power for the populace, nothing more, nothing less, just as they were in Ancient Greece.

I am proud to be

Mal

tooki
February 10, 2003 - 09:53 pm
It seems to me from what the Durants have been saying that Greek athletics and the Olympaids were big spectaculars, and were intended as such, events where money, power, and prestige changed hands. I don't see that they were different than what transpires today. The Greek athletes received money, prizes, and adultation in much the same way as modern athletes do today. And judging by the sculpture of "The Boxer" the brutalizing effects were no different. It is interesting that the same people who invented philosophy invented boxing.

tooki
February 10, 2003 - 10:01 pm
This is for Mal's return:Women and the Greek Olympics

Malryn (Mal)
February 10, 2003 - 10:27 pm
Olympia arch

Olympic flame fresco

Olympic site ruins

Justin
February 10, 2003 - 11:39 pm
Atta Girl, Mal. It's so nice to have you back where you belong, Mal. Have a look at my 369. You may be able to find some things in the Athens National.

Justin
February 10, 2003 - 11:48 pm
Athletes in 6th century Greece were entertainers. Those bare assed guys were watched by 45,000 shouting male spectators. If that's not entertainment, I don't know what is entertainment. We see the same show today but in pants and pants and halters. Very little has changed.

Justin
February 10, 2003 - 11:54 pm
Why are blacks in basketball and not in skiing and table tennis? Economics. No question about it. When was the last time you saw a large crowd at a table tennis match? There are exceptions of course. Arthur Ashe entered tennis when it was not a money game.

3kings
February 11, 2003 - 12:56 am
MAL, that photo of the Olympia arch intrigues me. Am I right in thinking that it is one of the first examples of a true arch, with a keystone? Up to this time, the Greeks only had a structure with two pillars, surmounted with a lintel. I was at Olympia a long time ago, but I think that was what we were told..-- Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2003 - 05:19 am
"To promote all-around development in the athlete, each entry in any of these events was required to compete in all of them. To secure the victory it was necessary to win three contests out of the five. The first was a broad jump. The athlete held weights like dumbbells in his hands, and leaped from a standing start. Ancient writers assure us that some jumpers spanned fifty feet, but it is not necessary to believe everything that we read.

"The second event was throwing the discus, a circular plate of metal or stone weighing about twelve pounds. The best throws are said to have covered a hundred feet. The third contest was in hurling the javelin or spear, with the aid of a leather thong attached to the center of the shaft.

"The fourth and principal event of the group was the stadium sprint -- i.e. for the length of the stadium, usually some two hundred yards. The fifth contest was wrestling. It was a highly popular form of competition in Greece, for the very name palaistra was taken from it, and many a story was told of its champions."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2003 - 06:27 am
Here is the HOME PAGE of the 2004 Olympics to be held in Athens.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2003 - 06:32 am
Here is a LIST of the 28 sports that will take place in the 2004 Olympics in Athens. You can click onto any of the sports for details and perhaps compare them with the similar sports held in Greece 2,500 years ago.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 11, 2003 - 07:43 am
SEATED ATHENA BY ENDOIOS

ATHLETES TRAINING, probably by Endoios

Malryn (Mal)
February 11, 2003 - 08:04 am
Copy of Athlete by Polycleitus 5th century BC

Shasta Sills
February 11, 2003 - 10:21 am
Do you think the Greeks really took women athletes seriously? You don't see Lysippos making any of his gorgeous sculptures of women athletes. On the whole, I think the ancient Greeks had a poor opinion of women.

I know nothing about sports so I asked a black friend of mine to answer Mahlia's questions. He said black men play basketball because white men can't jump. He said black men don't ski because they can't afford it. And he said black men don't play table tennis because they consider it beneath their dignity to slap those silly little white balls around.

BaBi
February 11, 2003 - 11:52 am
Shasta, I'm laughing. And I believe every word of what the man said! ...Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 11, 2003 - 12:44 pm
"Boxing was an ancient game, almost visibly handed down from Minoan Crete and Mycenaean Greece. The boxers practiced with punching balls hung on a level with the head and filled with fig seeds, meal, or sand. In the classic age of Greece (i.e. the fith and fourth centuries), they were 'soft gloves' of oxhide dressed with fat and reaching almost to the elbow. Blows were confined to the head, but there was no rule against hitting a man who was down.

"There were no rests or rounds. The boxers fought until one ssurrendered or succumbed. They were not classified by weight. Any man of any weight might enter the lists. Hence weight was an asset, and boxing degenerated in Greece from a competition in skill into a contest in brawn."

Robby

Justin
February 11, 2003 - 02:18 pm
The Olympia arch is not a true arch. There is no keystone. There are ten stones- an even number. Central pressure is distributed over two independent components. The formation is developed from base stones cut between 37 and 45 degrees. Not till the Romans come along do we encounter an arch with a keystone.

moxiect
February 11, 2003 - 02:25 pm
Good to see you back here, Mal!

Wouldn't it be nice to have a winning country in sports be prevelant rather than a stupid war.

MaryPage
February 11, 2003 - 03:15 pm
Oh, JUSTIN said it so well: "It's so nice to have you back where you belong, MAL!" Dum dum didly dum, TA DA! Just providing the music Justin forgot.

Persian
February 11, 2003 - 03:58 pm
In case I don't post on Friday, I'm asking now:

MAL - will you be our Valentine?

Malryn (Mal)
February 11, 2003 - 04:43 pm
Ho ho, I'm laughing, Mahlia! Sure, why not? If you'll all be mine.

Mal

3kings
February 11, 2003 - 08:44 pm
JUSTIN thankyou for the information about arches. Much obliged.--- Trevor

Justin
February 11, 2003 - 11:20 pm
Mary Page: We knew about Semele because she is the mother of Dionysus. Zeus you may remember was warm for her form. Hera became jealous and tricked Zeus into killing Semele who was pregnant with Dionysus.Zeus planted Dionysus in his thigh and when the gestation period was complete he gave birth to Dionysus. The thunderbolt that killed Semele made Dionysus immortal. When Dionysus reached maturiy he went to Hades to get his Mom making her an Olympian Goddess.

The name Semele has an operatic ring but I can't place it. Who was the composer?

Malryn (Mal)
February 12, 2003 - 07:09 am
Justin: George Frederic Handel composed "Semele".
There is another opera: "Jupiter und Semele" by Georg Philip Telemann.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2003 - 02:26 pm
Continuing on with Ancient Greek sports:--

"In the course of time, as brutality increased, boxing and wrestling were combined into a new contest called the pankration, or game of all powers. In this everything but biting and eye-=gouging was permitted, even to a kick in the stomach. Three heroes whose names have come down to us won by breaking the fingers of their opponents. Another struck so ferociously with straight extended fingers and strong sharp nails that he pierced the flesh of his adversary and dragged out his bowels.

"Milo of Crotona was a more amiable puglist. He had developed his strength, we are told, by carrying a calf every day of its life until it was a full-grown bull. People loved him for his tricks. He would hold a pomegranate so fast in his fist that no one could get it from him, and yet the fruit was uninjured. He would stand on an oiled quoit and resist all efforts to dislodge. He would tie a cord around his forehead and burst the cord by holding his breath and so forcing blood to his head.

"In the end he was destroyed by his virtues. Says Pausanias, 'For he chanced on a withered tree, into which some wedges had been driven to separate the wood, and he took it into his head to keep the wood apart with his hands. But the wedges slipped out, he was imprisoned in the tree, and became a prey to the wolves.'"

Did I hear anyone say: "Let's hold the Olympics the way they used to in Ancient Greece?

Robby

Justin
February 12, 2003 - 02:49 pm
Handel and Tellemann were a couple of eighteenth century contemporary contrapuntalists with great oratorios and incidental music who did not score well in opera. One has to wonder the reason.

Telemann tried opera scores forty or fifty times but none have made through to the current repertory. Handel also wrote a number of operas with much the same result. Of course, the castrati were dominant at that time and today's sopranos do not have the agility and power of the castrati. One of their contemporaries, Gluck, had the good sense to write in the Italian mode and to play down the florid role of the castrati. Alcestis comes to us every few years.

I think it is wonderful that Mary Page's granddaughter is resurecting one of Handel's and singing the role of Semele. That should happen more often in the music world. Today we are generally satisfied with the Messiah and Telemann's instrumental music. What a pity to waste the catalogs of two giants.

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2003 - 02:53 pm
Here are the cuurent RULES AND PROHIBITIONS of boxing.

Robby

Justin
February 12, 2003 - 03:07 pm
I once saw two men in a street fight. It was in the back yard of a diner in Greenwich Village. The fight was bare fisted and there were no rounds. When I arrived the fists and chests of the fighters were bloody. In the end the winner looked as bad as the loser except the loser lay on the ground. The poet who said "Liquor is quicker" has never seen a street fight.

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2003 - 03:10 pm
Here are the cuurent RULES AND PROHIBITIONS of boxing.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 12, 2003 - 04:43 pm
ANCIENT OLYMPIC EVENTS

Malryn (Mal)
February 12, 2003 - 04:45 pm
ANCIENT GREEK ATHLETES STORIES

MaryPage
February 12, 2003 - 04:57 pm
ROBBY, and all, I have had a very brief e-mail from HANK, and she is quite unwell and unable to post, but following our every post avidly, so let us dedicate our efforts to making S of C interesting for our silent fellow student.

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2003 - 05:48 pm
Hank:--Sorry to hear you are ill but pleased you are continuing to be part of our family. You are in our thoughts.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2003 - 05:55 pm
In Mal's link about "Athletes," click onto Milo of Crotona to read more about this fascinating personality mentioned in a previous post.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2003 - 06:06 pm
"In addition to the pentathlon sprint, there were other foot races at the games. One was for four hundred yards, another for twenty-four stadia, or 2 2/3 miles, a third was an armed race, in which each runner carried a heavy shield. We have no knowledge of the records made in these races. The stadium differed in length in different cities, and the Greeks had no instruments for measuring small intervals of time.

"Stories tell of a Greek runner who could outdistance a hare. Of another who raced a horse from Coronea to Thebes (some twenty miles) and beat it. And of how Pheidippides ran from Athens to Sparta -- 150 miles -- in two days and, at the cost of his life, brought to Athens the news of the victory at Marathon, twenty-four miles away.

"But there were no 'marathon races' in Greece."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 12, 2003 - 08:29 pm
Dear Mary Worth aka Hank:

I am posting this here because I rather figure email is not all that easy for you right now.

One of the main reasons I am back here posting is you and what you posted to me. What you said moved me very much. You know, I think, how grateful I am that you've read several of my books. You know, too, how much our friendship means to me.

Feel better, dear Hank. You're a lovely, valuable person, and I love you very much.

Mal

Justin
February 12, 2003 - 10:16 pm
Sport contests must be one of the ways man passed from barbarism to civilization. Games are an approved outlet for aggressive behavior. No matter how violent the contest the participants always shake hands after the event (if the loser is capable).

Justin
February 12, 2003 - 10:31 pm
Mary W. (Hank): I have not seen postings from you in S of C for a while and I have missed your comments. We have been through several thousand postings here, together and that gives us a special kinship. Whenever any one of this group becomes ill it saddens all of us. Get well soon, Hank.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 05:13 am
Justin says:--"Sport contests must be one of the ways man passed from barbarism to civilization."

Do you folks agree with this?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 05:21 am
"In the plain below the stadium Olympia built a special hippodrome for horse races. Women as well as men might enter their horses. As now, the prize went to the owner and not to the jockey, though the horse was sometimes rewarded with a statue.

"The culminating events of the games were the chariot races, with two or four horses running abreast. Often ten four-horse chariots competed together. As each had to negotiate twenty-three turns around the posts at the ends of the course, accidents were the chief thrill of the game. In one race with forty starters a single chariot finished.

"We may imagine the tense excitement of the spectators at these contests, their wordy arguments about their favorites, their emotional abandonment as the survivors rounded the last turn."

The chief thrill was an accident. One "survivor" out of forty. The prize going to the owner. Any difference between "man" today and the people of 2,500 years ago?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 05:58 am
I'm sure Mahlia doesn't mind that I post this email I received.

"I learned last night that my son, David, received his deployment orders last Monday. Please keep him in your prayers."

We most certainly will, Mahlia. Her son is a chaplain in the military.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 13, 2003 - 06:46 am
As a mother of two sons and grandmother of 7 grandsons, every time I hear about another soldier being deployed, my heart breaks. I pray God for the resolve of this conflict and for helping grieving mothers, wives and children in their sadness. We are thankful that their loved ones risk their lives for peace in the world.

Mahlia, I will pray for your son.

Eloïse

tooki
February 13, 2003 - 07:01 am
The Durants say, on p.214, "In the course of time, as brutality increased. . . ."

Their statement implies, I think, that as time goes by and civilization presumably increases, brutality increases also.

This is contrary to Justin's thought. I prefer the Durant's view.

It makes me feel better about current affairs since if we are becoming less civilized, not more, then being forced to just stand back, watch, and wait for war is the nature of living.

.

Malryn (Mal)
February 13, 2003 - 07:04 am
Oh, Mahlia . . . .

You know, I wish sometimes we were talking about some trumped up war in history instead of sports right now. The thing that comes to my mind is Alexander and his conquests. I don't want to pursue this in discussion, but it seems to me we are seeing a terrible repeat of the kind of history which should have taught us something but didn't. And what a pity!

War is the nature of living, Tooki? It is the nature of history, but living? I couldn't disagree more.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 07:14 am
Do animals play games? Are they civilized?

Robby

MaryPage
February 13, 2003 - 07:15 am
It fills me with pride in our nation to think that a young man with the favored name of the Jewish tribes, containing the blood of Egyptian and Persian tribes, is going forth into battle on behalf of our polyglot, variegated American tribe to serve our troops as a Christian Chaplain! If MAL put this situation in one of her books, critics would surely write that her plot is too implausible!

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 07:32 am
MaryPage:--For those here who didn't know it, Mahlia is married to an Egyptian who is a professor teaching in Cairo and their son's name is David. Yes, it certainly gives one pause to think.

Robby

Persian
February 13, 2003 - 08:37 am
In trying to strike a lighter tone in our recent conversation, my son, David, reminded me that "in ancient times, the Priests (Chaplains) always led the warriors in battle." Now WHERE have I read/heard that before? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Thanks to all for their good thoughts.

Malryn (Mal)
February 13, 2003 - 09:19 am
You asked about animals, Robby. The link below might interest some.

Scroll down to read about Greyhounds in Ancient Greece

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 09:22 am
Mal:--Your link told about human beings playing games using animals. I asked if animals play games.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 13, 2003 - 10:20 am
Of course, animals play games. Watch them. Whether they're civilized is a good question I'm not going to touch, since I've been foiled once again!

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 10:25 am
But isn't that something to examine? Have we determined what "being civilized" is? Can only human beings be civilized? Did civilization only begin back there around Sumeria somewhere?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 13, 2003 - 11:02 am
How about beavers? How about bees? How about ants? They're all hard workers and seem to have some sort of civilization. What about chimpanzees and apes?

Mal

Bubble
February 13, 2003 - 11:07 am
Do we have the cheek to believe only we are able to be civilized? Maybe ants see as as barbarous with no feelings, knowing only how to destroy around themselves.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 11:26 am
And I keep wondering if any of these animals play games.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 11:41 am
"When the toils of five days were over, the victors received their reward. Each bound a woolen fillet about his head, and upon this the judges placed a crown of wild olive, while a herald announced the name and city of the winner. This laurel wreath was the only prize given at the Olympic games, and yet it was the most eagerly contested distinction in Greece.

"So important were the games that not even the Persian invasion stopped them. While a handful of Greeks withstood Xerexes' army at Thermopylae, the customary thousands watched Theagenes of Thasos, on the very day of the battle, win the pancratiast's crown.

"Exclaimed a Persian to his general:--'Good heavens! What manner of men are these aginst whom you have brought us to fight? -- men who contend with one another not for money but for honor!' He, or the Greek inventor of the tale, did the Greeks too much credit, and not merely because the Greeks should on that day have been at Thermopylae rather than at Olympia. Though the direct prize at the games was little, the indirect rewards were great. Many cities voted substantial sums to the victors on their return from their triumphs. Some cities made them generals. The crowd idolized them so openly that jealous philosophers complained.

"Poets like Simonides and Pindar were engaged by the victor or his patrons to write odes in his honor, which were sung by choruses of boys in the procession that welcomed him home. Sculptors were paid to perpetuate him in bronze or stone. Sometimes he was given free sustenance in the city hall.

"We may judge the cost of this item when we learn, on qustionable authority, that Milo ate a four-year-old heifer, and Theagenes an ox, in a day."

Robby

Persian
February 13, 2003 - 12:37 pm
I would absolutely love to have heard a Persian say "Good Heavens" to his General!

BaBi
February 13, 2003 - 12:38 pm
ROBBY, a favorite game with both cats and dogs is 'chase', and tumbling over one another is a favorite with puppies. Chase your tail is enjoyed as a solo game by cats. I believe ants, bees, etc. are far too industrious to play games. Elephants like to play water games, I believe. And dolphins are notoriously playful. All in all, I think most of the larger animals have some form of play. Whether or not they would qualify as 'games' in the strict sense is debatable. ..Babi

Mary W
February 13, 2003 - 12:52 pm
This may not be the appropriate way to do this but I must tell you how very much I appreciate your posts. I was literally overwhelmed at your kindness. At this moment in my life I am completely isolated from the real world so contact with you is doubly rewarding. Thanks kids. You really blew me away. Hank

MaryPage
February 13, 2003 - 12:58 pm
No problem, HANK. All in S of C are deeply bonded, and you have been and are and always will be woven into that bond. So you see, no problem.

Otters most definitely play games. The animal on my totem (I have Native American blood) is the Beaver, chosen by me, and I am quite proud of it. I think beavers are very civilized. They are amazing engineers, build houses, build dams, chop down trees, make ponds, raise their young, do not make war against others, work very hard and FROLIC AND PLAY at wonderful games!

p.s. I have personally played "catch me if you can" with a young male beaver. He had SO much fun having me paddle around a pond after him. He particularly loved swimming around and coming up behind my canoe and slapping his tail loudly to let me know where he was. We did this repeatedly until I wore out!

Faithr
February 13, 2003 - 02:12 pm
Marypage I wish I had been an ant on your boat to watch you playing a game with beavers. I have seen many documentaries of animals playing when they are young. They do have winners and losers. They pull and push attack and butt and jun and jostle each other. This is done by young males to teach them how to fight for their pick of female when they become adult. Cats have many games and I watched my Siamese cat teach her kittens how to hunt by playing games with them. She would lay under the chair with her tail sticking out an twitch it when a kitten was near the yank it into hiding when the kitten tried to grab it. Hours of this play gave the kittens good paw/eye reflex for searching out game then catching it.I am not sure all the sports are "play". Since they have winners and losers I would call it sports but play to me does seem to be when there is no point to it except fun. Oh, I guess I could go on and on about this.I have always thought the Olympics were to tame(or civilize) the blood sports and the war games. Faith

Justin
February 13, 2003 - 03:04 pm
Mahlia: I guess David had Joshua in mind as a religious military leader. Mohammed, in later days, is also a possible candidate. Pope Julius may fit this role, as well, but these guys are not "ancient". Can anyone think of others who might fit David's thought?

A mother's role in war time is not an easy one. When my mother passed away some years ago, I found among her things, a flag with three stars- one that mothers hung in the window to show how many of their boys were away in war. I didn't realize at the time how painful that was for her but I do now and so I can say that I understand your anxiety about David.

Justin
February 13, 2003 - 03:23 pm
Do animals play games? No. Games are organized events that require an ability to follow rules and make choices. Animals may appear playful but their actions are purposeful. Kittens respond to a mother's prodding until they learn to catch mice for dinner. These actions are survival training not game playing.

Are animals civilized? No. Civilization implies economic provision, political organization, moral tradition, and pursuit of knowledge and the arts. Animals may qualify on the first two counts but fail badly on the latter two. (Though I have seen some painting by chimps that rivals painting by abstract expressionists.)

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 06:54 pm
Hank (Mary W):--Since the inception of Story of Civilization, it became evident that we became a real Family and you are part of it.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 07:18 pm
"In 582 the Amphictyonic League established the Pythian games in honor of Apollo at Delphi. In the same year the Isthmian games were instituted at Corinth in honor of Poseidon. Six years later the Nemean games were inaugurated to celebrate the Nemean Zeus. All three occasions became Panhellenic festivals.

"Together with the Olympic games they formed a periodos, or cycle, and the great ambition of a Greek athlete was to win the crown of all of them. In the Pythian games contests in music and poetry were added to the physical competition. Indeed such musical tilts had been celebrated at Delphi long before the establishment of the athletic games.

"The original event was a hymn in honor of Apollo's victory over the Delphic python. In 582 contests were added in singing and in playing the lyre and the flute. Similar musical contests were held at Corinth, Nemea, Delos, and elsewhere. The Greeks believed that by frequent public competitions they could stimulate not only the ability of the performer but the taste of the public as well.

"The principle was applied to almost every art -- to pottery, poetry, sculpture, painting, choral singing, oratory, and drama. In this way and others the games had a profound influence upon art and literature, and even upon the writing of history. The chief method of reckoning time, in later Greek historiography, was by Olympiads, designated by the name of the victor in the one-stadium foot race.

"The physical perfection of the all-around athlete in the sixth century generated that ideal of statuary which reached its fullness in Myron and Polycleitus. The nude contests and games in the palaestra and at the festivals gave the sculptor unequaled opportunities to study the human body in every natural form and pose.

"The nation unwittingly became models to its artists, and Greek athletics united with Greek religion to generate Greek art."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2003 - 07:38 pm
For comparison sake, here is the LATEST in the United States Olympic Committee.

Robby

Justin
February 13, 2003 - 11:50 pm
The Olympic Committee is in dire need of help. A board of directors of 120 members is insane. The chairman must think he is addressing an audience when he recognizes someone... and the scandals...my goodness. It is a nonprofit which spends 25% of its income to manage anf to get funds. That's a lavish operation. In ancient Greece the various communities paid for the games. I bet there were scandals that we don't know about.

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2003 - 04:51 am
Durant now brings us to an area of interest which I know touches many people here --

ARTS

"Now that we come at last to the most perfect products of Greek civilization, we find ourselves tragically limited in the quantity of the remains. The devastation caused in Greek literature by time and bigotry and mental fashions is negligible compared with the destruction of Greek art. One classic bronze survives -- the Charioteer of Delphi, one classic marble statue -- the Hermes of Praxiteles. Not one temple -- not even the Theseum -- has come down to us in the form and color that it had for ancient Greece.

"Greek work in textiles, in wood, in ivory, silver, or gold, is nearly all gone. The material was too perishable or too precious to escape vandalism and time. We must reconstruct the ship from a few planks of the wreckage.

"The sources of Greek art weere the impulses to representation and decoration, the anthropomorphic quality of Freek religion, and the athletic character and ideal. The early Greek, like other primitives, when he outgrew the custom of sacrificing living beings to accompany and serve the dead, buried carved or painted figures as substitutes. Later he placed images of his ancestors in his home. Or he dedicated in the temple likenesses of himself, or of those whom he loved, as votive figurines that might magically win for their models the protection of the god.

"Minoan religion, Mycenaean religion, even the chthonic cults of Greece, were too vague and impersonal, sometimes too horrible and grotesque, to lend themselves to esthetic form.

"The frank humanity of the Olympian gods, and their need of temple homes for their earthly stays, opened a wide road for sculpture, architecture, and a hundred ancillary arts. No other religion -- possibly excepting Catholicism -- has so stimulated and influenced literature and art.

"Almost every book or play, statue or building or vase, that has come down to us from ancient Greece touches upon religion in subject, purpose, or inspiration."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2003 - 08:06 am
HERMES

tooki
February 14, 2003 - 10:03 am
The Durants discuss, on p. 217, how important the Olympian gods were for the development of the various Greek arts.

In a strange and fascinating book, "Odyssey of the Gods: The Alien History of Ancient Greece," Erich von Daniken, "shows" that the Greek gods were extraterrestrial beings.

They arrived on earth thousands of years ago and apparently have been amusing themselves with us since.

Here is a review of the book:ALIENS AMONG US

BaBi
February 14, 2003 - 11:14 am
Malryn, the Hermes is beautiful. I can't quite make out what it is he is holding on his arm, however. Can you tell me?

Tooki, I read Daniken's books many years ago. Interesting idea, but probably it would be more accurate to say he contends, rather than 'shows', that the Greek gods were extraterrestrials.

Robby, considering the great cathedrals, the stained glass artworks, the illuminated manuscripts, not to mention statuary, icons, and painting, and religious artifacts such as rosaries, altar furniture, etc., etc... I would have to say Roman Catholicism definitely rivals the Greek religions in inspiring every kind of art. ... Babi

Bubble
February 14, 2003 - 11:14 am
I remember how fascinated I was by Chariots of the Gods. This sounds good too as a exploration of new avenues. Now if I could find that book at my Reader's Corner, my favorite for second hand books...



BaBi, if you click on the lower right corner of Hermes, you make the picture bigger and then you will see clearly that he is holding a baby.

Justin
February 14, 2003 - 04:24 pm
The "Hermes" Mal has shown us is an original marble sculpture by Praxiteles. There are very few original sculptural works from 6th and 5th century Greece extant. This one and the bronze "Charioteer" are uncontested. Praxitele's Aphrodite of Cnidus was thought for a while to be original but it is now recognized as a copy. Also there is a "head" about that may be original but it is in contention.

Herms appeared in the roadways of Greece to ward off evil spirits for travelers. These were little more than a column or pillared pedestal with a head on top and a phallus protruding from the pillar.

"Hermes" was connected with fertility and theft. The patron saint of thieves. He was the son of Zeus by the daughter of Atlas. On his first day of life he invented the lyre and stole the cattle of a fellow god. Then he denied the theft. Musicians and liars both had an opportunity to adopt him as patron god. He is also the patron god of literature.

"Hermes holds a child" in the Praxiteles work. The child is Dionysus, the precursor of Christ, and the cult god who introduced immortality to the Greeks.

Praxiteles introduced intimate feelings in sculptural depictions. In the Hermes work, the child is not only borne but protected as well. This is one of the earliest depictions of a pair in close connection.

Thank you Mal, for finding the work.

Justin
February 14, 2003 - 04:34 pm
Mal: Find that Aphrodite, please. The one from Cnidus. It is beautiful. Some say the work is a copy of Phrynne. Phrynne was the mistress of Praxiletes. She was a beautiful harlot who refused Demosthenes. He offered her all he had for one night of joy. Then she took up with Praxiteles who was a penniless sculptor. There are lots of fun stories around about Phrynne.

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2003 - 05:07 pm
APHRODITE OF CNIDUS

gaj
February 14, 2003 - 05:51 pm
Tonight on the national news (ABC) was a story about Saddam's oldest son.Below is the part about the Olympic athletes from his own country.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/World/saddam_son_030214.html

"But Odai saved some of his harshest cruelty for his own countrymen. "Odai Hussein as head of the Olympic committee has personally directed the torture of athletes who have not done well. He has participated himself in beatings, in amputations," Galbraith said.

"It's the only Olympic committee in the world that has its own prison. … It has really become a chamber of horrors," said Galbraith, whose group receives funding from the U.S. government....

"I think the best comparison is with the [former] Ugandan dictator Idi Amin ... who also was a sadist, who enjoyed killing people, and who engaged in all sorts of very erratic behavior," said Galbraith.

Galbraith says Odai is guilty of a long list of atrocities, from his treatment of Olympic athletes, to rapes and murders, to his reported role in ordering the torture of American prisoners of war.

...Former members of Iraq's Olympic teams gave numerous first-person accounts of Odai's behavior to 20/20 and ESPN.

A former player on Iraq's soccer team, Sharar Haydar, said Odai sent him and other players to prison as punishment for the team's defeat by Jordan. Haydar, who defected in 1998, said he was beaten daily with 20 blows to the feet, and given only bread and water.

Another defector, weightlifter Ahmed Reham, who was the flag bearer for the Iraqi team at the 1996 Atlanta Games, also says he was tortured.

"They used special sticks — electric sticks. Pipes filled with stones, and the special sticks. If you get hit on the head you might die. You have no idea how cruel these guys are," he said.


I wonder what the first Olympians would think of this behavior.

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2003 - 06:25 pm
Unbelievable, GinnyAnn. Maybe various cultures aren't civilized -- only individuals.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2003 - 06:46 pm
Durant continues with ARTS:--

"Inspiration alone would not have made Greek art great. There was needed a technical excellence rising out of cultural contacts and the transmission and development of crafts. Indeed art to the Greek was a form of handicraft, and the artist grew so naturally out of the artisan that Greece never quite distinguished them.

"There was needed a knowledge of the human body, as in its healthy development the norm of proportion, symmetry, and beauty. There was needed a sensuous, passionate love of beauty, that would hold no toil too great that might give to the living moment of loveliness a lasting form.

"The women of Sparta placed in their sleeping chambers figures of Apollo, Narcissus, Hyacinthus, or some other handsome deity, in order that they might bear beautiful children. Cypselus established a beauty contest among women far back in the seventh century. According to Athenaeus this periodical competition continued down to the Christian era.

"In some places, says Theophrastus, 'there are contests between the women in respect of modesty and good management and also there are contests about beauty, as for instance in Tenedos and Lesbos.'"

Robby

Justin
February 14, 2003 - 07:41 pm
Mal; The Cnidus Aphrodite is clearly the right one. It is Praxiteles in all respects yet it is not the one I had in my mind's eye. I will come upon the one I was thinking of and say " oh, yeah, that's the one". It is not the Venus of Cnidus for that one is headless but the torso is beautiful. It must be another. I'm getting old I guess when I can't remember an image of a woman.

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2003 - 07:53 pm
APHRODITE

Malryn (Mal)
February 14, 2003 - 08:02 pm

APHRODITE OF ARLES, Louvre Museum


APHRODITE OF ARLES DETAIL

Bubble
February 15, 2003 - 02:44 am
The "another" Aphrodite is superb even without head. Looking at it makes fingers itch ... to sculpt too! (yes Mal, I can hear the wheels in your mind) Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 05:14 am
Durant (see GREEN quotes in Heading) now begins to concentrate on various sections of the ARTS:--

"There was a pretty legend in Greece that the first cup was molded upon Helen's breast. If so, the mold was lost in the Dorian invasion, for what pottery has come down to us from early Greece does not remind us of Helen. The invasion must have profoundly disturbed the arts, impoverishing craftsmen, scattering schools, and ending for a time the transmission of technology. Greek vases after the invasion begin again with primitive simplicity and crudity, as if Crete had never lifted pottery into an art.

"Probably the rough mood of the Dorian conquerors, using what survived of Minoan-Mycenaean techniques, produced that Geometric style which dominates the oldest Greek pottery after the Homeric age. Flowers, scenery, and plants, so luxuriant in Cretan ornament, were swept away, and the stern spirit that made the glory of the Doric temple, contrived the passion ruin of Greek pottery.

"The gigantic jars that characterize this period made small pretense to beauty. They were designed to store wine or oil or grain rather than to interest a ceramic connoisseur. The decoration was almost all by repeated triangles, circles, chains, checkers, lozenges, swastikas, or simple parallel horizontal lines. Even the human figures that intervened were geometrical -- torsos were triangles, thighs and legs were cones.

"This lazy style of ornament spread through Greece, and determined the form of the Dipylon vases (so called because they were found chiefly near the Double Gate of the city at the Ceramicas) at Athens. On these enormous containers (usually made to receive the human dead), black silhouettes of mourners, chariots, and animals were drawn, however awkwardly, between the pattern's lines.

"Toward the end of the eighth century more life entered into the painting of Greek pottery. Two colors were used for the ground, curves replaced straight lines, palmettes and lotuses, prancing horses and hunted lions took form upon the clay, and the ornate Oriental succeeded the bare Geometric style."

How interesting that the development of civilization seems to go in cycles -- advancing and receding.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 07:14 am
Here is a link to GREEK VASES which will lead you to further links with pictures.

Robby

BaBi
February 15, 2003 - 09:32 am
Interesting how perception of beauty changes. I found the second 'aphrodite', without the head, much lovelier than the Cnidus aphrodite. The Cnidus was long in the jaw and thick in the waist, by today's views.

Justin, thanks for identifying for me the child Hermes is holding.

The Greek vases and the Greek key design I have always thought lovely. I did not know an earlier, softer vase style had been lost, tho' of course war and invasion always does bring changes in the local culture.

I remember seeing, over 20 years ago, an exhibit of very fine gold artifacts in the British museum. The unusual thing about was that they were the work of a mobile, warlike people. Artistry of that caliber is usually found only with a settled community. I'll dig around and see if I can find my souvenir info. on that artwork. ...Babi

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 09:37 am
ROBBY, I think your hypothesis is inside out, or t'other way round. You say perhaps groups are not civilized, but only individuals. It has been my experience that most people are terribly nice and helpful and concerned and friendly everywhere I have traveled and/or lived. If it were not so, I probably would have gone mad long since. It is individuals who are insanely out of kilter, and the public is beguiled by these and unbelieving of their outrages until it is too late.

Okay, just throwing in my own 2¢ worth. Who knows which view is correct, but this is mine.

BABI, I have always identified strongly with the Greek key design myself.

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 10:33 am
ROBBY, I love that link to Greek vases. Oh, I have learned so much; now if I can only retain it! Have decided I like the Nolan amphora best, and also the Kantharos drinking cup. I saw the cup our text spoke of, the one supposedly based on the breast of Helen of Troy. Your link does not mention the fair Helen, but the cup is called the Mastos cup, looks exactly like a breast, and the word mastos means bust. I could not figure out, in reading Durant, how such a cup would work. Well, now we know! Thanks for finding that link!

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 10:42 am
MaryPage, you say that the cup looks "exactly like a breast." I didn't know they all came in exactly the same shape.

All right, gang, you don't have to let the flood gates open! Just an off-hand thought.

Robby

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 11:15 am
Come on, IADELUCA! We're trying to be serious here!

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 11:19 am
MASTOS CUP


Okay, that didn't do it; so click on shapes and usage and then INDEX and scroll down to the Mastos cup.

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 11:21 am
"An age of busy experimentation followed. Miletus flooded the market with its red vases, Samos with its alabasters, Lesbos with its black wares, Rhodes with its white, Clazomenae with its grays, and Naucratis exported faience and translucent glass.

"Erythrae was famous for the thinness of its vases, Chaleis for brilliance of finish, Sicyon and Corinth for their delicate 'Proto-Corinthian' scent bottles and elaborately painted jugs like the Chigi vase in Rome. A kind of ceramic war engaged the potters of the rival cities. One or another of them found purchases in every port of the Mediterranean, and in the interior of Russia, Italy, and Gaul.

"In the seventh century Corinth seemed to be winning. Its wares were in every land and hand, its potters had found new techniques of incision and coloring, and had shown a fresh inventiveness in forms.

"But about 550 the masters of the Ceramicus -- the potters' quarter on the outskirts of Athens -- came to the front, threw off Oriental influence, and captured with their Black-Figure ware the markets of the Black Sea, Cyprus, Egypt, Etruria, and Spain. From that time onward the best ceramic craftsmen migrated to Athens or were born there.

"A great school and tradition formed as through many generations son succeeded father in the art. The making of fine pottery gecame one of the great industries, finally one of the conceded monopolies, of Attica."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2003 - 11:26 am
Another image of a mastos cup

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2003 - 11:28 am
Click on the thumbnails to see larger pictures

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 11:28 am
"An age of busy experimentation followed. Miletus flooded the market with its red vases, Samos with its alabasters, Lesbos with its black wares, Rhodes with its white, Clazomenae with its grays, and Naucratis exported faience and translucent glass.

"Erythrae was famous for the thinness of its vases, Chaleis for brilliance of finish, Sicyon and Corinth for their delicate 'Proto-Corinthian' scent bottles and elaborately painted jugs like the Chigi vase in Rome. A kind of ceramic war engaged the potters of the rival cities. One or another of them found purchases in every port of the Mediterranean, and in the interior of Russia, Italy, and Gaul.

"In the seventh century Corinth seemed to be winning. Its wares were in every land and hand, its potters had found new techniques of incision and coloring, and had shown a fresh inventiveness in forms.

"But about 550 the masters of the Ceramicus -- the potters' quarter on the outskirts of Athens -- came to the front, threw off Oriental influence, and captured with their Black-Figure ware the markets of the Black Sea, Cyprus, Egypt, Etruria, and Spain. From that time onward the best ceramic craftsmen migrated to Athens or were born there.

"A great school and tradition formed as through many generations son succeeded father in the art. The making of fine pottery gecame one of the great industries, finally one of the conceded monopolies, of Attica."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 11:46 am
EVERTHING you ever wanted to know about how to do pottery but were afraid to ask.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 11:58 am
A link for those who would like to know A BIT MORE about the art of pottery making.

Robby

Bubble
February 15, 2003 - 12:24 pm
To this day the Rhodes ceramics are famous and very typical with their designs of stylised flowers. They have deep blue outlines and are so colorful. To my untrained eye they are very similar to the Armenian ceramics but are finer wares. Armenians can be quite heavy.



I wonder why they never could equal the delicacy and transparency of Chinese porcelain.

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 12:46 pm
MORE GREEK POTTERY

BUBBLE, I have read that some of the 4 cups used in Jewish religious ceremonies actually have Greek names. What do you know about this?

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 12:58 pm
GETTY COLLECTION

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 01:04 pm
"Toward the last quarter of the sixth century the Athenian potter tired of black figures on a red ground, inverted the formula, and created that Red-Figure style which ruled the markers of the Mediterranean for two hundred years. The figures were still stiff and angular, the body in profile with the eyes in full view. But even within these limits there was a new freedom, a wider scope, of conception and execution.

"He sketched the figures upon the clay with a light point, drew them in greater detail with a pen, filled in the background with black, and added minor touches with colored glaze. Here, too, some of the masters made lasting names. One amphora is signed, 'Painted by Euthymides, son of Pollias, as never Euphronius' - which was to challenge Euphronius to equal it.

"Nevertheless this Euphronius is still rated as the greatest potter of his age. To him, some think, belongs the great krater on which Heracles wrestles with Antaeus. To his contemporary Sosias is attributed one of the most famous of Greek vases, whereon Achilles binds the wounded arm of Patrochus. Every detail is lovingly carried out, and the silent pain of the young warrior has survived the centuries.

"To these men, and now nameless others, we owe such masterpieces as the cup in whose interior we see Dawn mourning over her dead son, and the hydria, in the Metropolitan Museum of Art at New York, that shows a Greek soldier, perhaps Achilles, plunging his lance into a fair and not breastless Amazon.

"It was before such a vase as one of these that John Keats stood enthralled one day, until its 'wild ecstasy' and 'mad pursuit' fired his brain with an ode greater than any Grecian urn."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 01:08 pm
Click HERE to read "Ode on a Grecian Urn" by John Keats.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 01:21 pm
This LINK helps us to understand Keats' fascination with Ancient Greece and helps us to understand each of the stanzas he wrote in that "Ode."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 01:36 pm
Each to our own method. In my case, I clicked onto the link to the poem and then printed out the poem. Then I clicked onto the link which explained each stanza. Then I first read the stanza's explanation and then read the stanza out loud.

That Ode was read to our high school class and I understood nothing of it. Now -- with the help of Durant and the comments of you folks in getting to understand Ancient Greece, and with the help of the method I just stated, this Ode (finally 66 years later) has some meaning for me.

Some things take a lifetime to understand.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 01:41 pm
"When old age shall this generation waste,
Thou shalt remain, in midst of other woe
Than ours, a friend to man, to whom thou say’st,
“Beauty is truth, truth beauty,”—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know."



Would you folks agree that these last five lines in Keats' Ode have a special meaning to those in our age bracket?

Robby

Justin
February 15, 2003 - 03:22 pm
Greek Vases have a variety of shapes. There are six in all. The Hydria is a water jar with three handles- two for lifting and one for carrying. The Lekythos is an oil flask with a long narrow neck. The Krater has a large opening at the top and two handles lower down. It is used to mix water and wine. Many of these have been recovered and thus, the krater is the one most often seen today in museums.

The Amphora is a jug with two handles used to store grain and other supplies. I think the dead sea scrolls were found stored in Amphorae.Many of the recent underwater recoveries include goods stored in Amphorae. Covers could be fitted to Amphorae.

The Kylix is a drinkng cup. It is not shaped as a teacup but is more like a wide soup bowl. The oenochoeis is used to pour wine. It is shaped as a modern pitcher with a pinched top and a single handle for pouring.

Justin
February 15, 2003 - 03:39 pm
Amphorae and Kraters were decorated as early as the Eighth century. Some were found, as I recall, in the Minoan civilization which places decorated pottery in the 15th century. The Geometric style, initially was curvilinear. It was found on vases in the tenth century.

Gradually the style became more and more rectilinear until about the eighth century the painted lines filled the entire surface of a jar. It was during the eighth century that vase makers were able to add human figures to the jars. The figures were constructed from straight lines.

The Dipylon Amphora and Dipylon Krater are fine examples of this early work.

Shasta Sills
February 15, 2003 - 03:41 pm
Spent a dismal morning filing income tax, and a delightful afternoon looking at Greek pottery. Like Keats, Greek pottery sends me into ecstacies. I love the colors--black and red, especially when the red is almost a pale orange. I suppose the Greeks didn't know which chemicals to use to make green and blue glazes. I'm glad they didn't!

Justin
February 15, 2003 - 03:46 pm
The Francois Vase- an Archaic Krater, found in an Etruscan tomb, is a fine example of signed vases. There are over 200 figures on the vase depicting a Greek wedding. Its painting is done in the black figure technique.

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 03:49 pm
Here is a link just for Shasta all about the color RED.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2003 - 04:56 pm
Scroll down to see the Francois Vase, and do click the link at the bottom of the page to see some absolutely marvelous sculptures.

Francois and other Greek vases

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2003 - 05:06 pm
Click the link below and scroll down to see a Greek vase on which is portrayed the use of encaustic painting. Pigment was added to wax and applied to sculptures and pottery in Ancient Greece; then heated or "fired". Among the pigments used were ochre and carmine, made from plants which created shades of orange and red. Justin will tell us more about this, I'm sure.

Encaustic painting

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 06:06 pm
As indicated in the Heading, Durant moves us on ---

"The Greek settlement of western Asia, and the opening of Egypt to Greek trade towards 660 B.C. allowed Near Eastern and Egyptian forms and methods of statuary to enter Ionia and European Greece. About 580 two Cretan sculptors, Dipoenus and Scyllis, accepted commissions at Sicyon and Argos, and left behind them there not only statues but pupils. From this period dates a vigorous school of sculpture in the Peloponnese.

"The art had many purposes: it commemorated the dead first with simple pillars -- then with herms whose head alone was carved -- then with forms completely chiseled in the round -- or with funeral-stelae reliefs. It made statues of victorious athletes, first as types, later as individuals.

"And it was encouraged by the lively imagination of Greek faith to make countless images of the gods."

Robby

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 06:16 pm
Interesting link on RED, ROBBY. Always felt red to be an angry, threatening color. Love it in accents in a room, such as a pot of red geraniums, red books on a bookshelf, red glass goblets, etc. But am very uncomfortable and uneasy in a room in which the main color is red. Way back in 1969, my husband and a friend and I were all seated in a well-known restaurant in San Francisco. We had been served iced water and menus, and were about to choose, when I felt the red and black decor closing in on me, and we had to leave. A few years ago, I read an article about the psychology of colors, and it said that restaurateurs are advised to use red as their main motif as it makes the tables turn over more often, making for a greater profit. It said my favorite blue is the worst color to use, because it makes your customers want to linger at their meals!

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2003 - 06:37 pm
I love the color red in all of its hues, and have never felt threatened by it. It's a warm, friendly, often passionate color, as far as I'm concerned. When my daughter had this apartment addition to her house built for me, I had the kitchen floor painted red. It makes me happy every time I turn my head to the left as I sit here at this computer in the bright yellow-with-blue-trim "living room" area of this room I live in and see that lovely red kitchen floor. Blue makes me feel Lowdown and Blue.

Mal

MaryPage
February 15, 2003 - 06:51 pm
Fascinating, MAL! I identify so much with you, but here we are very, very different. I never get down or blue. Lucky me, have never been depressed. On the contrary, I have what is often described as an irrepressible personality. Never ceased being in trouble for talking in school until I hit 4th grade, and discovered what books had to say was more interesting to me than what I had to say. I think the blues, greens and whites I prefer in my home tend to soothe my spirits!

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2003 - 06:55 pm
"We hear a great deal of the chest of Cypselus, dictator of Corinth. According to Pausanias, it was made of cedar, inlaid with ivory and gold, and adorned with complicated carvings. As wealth increased, wooden statues might be covered, in whole or part, by precious materials. Indeed it was thus that Pheidias made his chryselephantine (i.e. gold and ivory) statues of Athene Parthenos and the Olympian Zeus."

Robby

Justin
February 15, 2003 - 07:39 pm
The black figured technique is achieved without glaze or pigment. It is achieved with finely sifted clay and a three stage firing process. The red figured technique is just the reverse of the black. The process is inverted. The Francois Vase is a fine example of black figures and the Revelers of red figures. The black Francois vase was done about 575BCE and the Revelers with red figures about 60 years later.

Justin
February 15, 2003 - 07:54 pm
The Kritios boy is quite natural looking for the period. He was achieved in 480 BCE in the classical period. Naturalism and balance and the contraposto stance are very evident in this marble fellow. His body is "at rest". It is a natural posture and of course, we have not seen this before. In the late 13th century CE painters like Giotto will strive to achieve this same natural appearance and thus launch the Proto Renaissance which we will reach some day.

Malryn (Mal)
February 15, 2003 - 09:26 pm
Athene Parthenos reconstruction

Justin
February 15, 2003 - 11:45 pm
There is another reconstruction of Athena Parthenos in Nashville Tenn. The folks in that city reconstructed the entire Parthenon and included the statue of Athena. If the Nashville one can be found on the net it would be interesting to compare the Ontario Athena with the Nashville Athena. The temple in Nashville is complete, including figured metopes. In the original several metopes are missing and reconstruction must have entailed considerable research as well as perhaps, a little imagination. We know the theme of the metopes and the style of the work.

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2003 - 04:35 am
Here is the NASHVILLE "PARTHENON"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2003 - 04:42 am
Here are some EXCELLENT PHOTOS of the Parthenon in Nashville.

Robby

Bubble
February 16, 2003 - 05:00 am
Sorry, I never heard of Greek names for the four glasses drunk in Jewish ceremonies. I will ask around.



About Keats ode, I too am finally able to taste the underlying meanings and the beauty of it. I found it so hard to memorize then, and thus could not remember it today.



We do have eclectic learning in this discussion.Justin's explanations are so clear and Mal's links emphasise them, it all complements Durant's exploration in great benefit. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2003 - 06:02 am
"Bronze rivaled stone as sculptural material to the end of classical art. Few ancient bronzes have survived the temptation to melt them down, but we may judge from the perhaps too ministerial Charioteer of the Delphi Museum (ca. 490) how near to perfection the art of hollow casting had been carried since Rhoecus and Theodorus of Samos had introduced it into Greece.

"The most famous group in Athenian statuary, the Tyrannicides, was cast in bronze by Anterior Athens shortly after the expulsion of Hippias. Many forms of soft stone were used before the sculptors of Greece undertook to mold harder varieties with hammer and chisel. Once they had learned the art they almost demanded Naxos and Paros of marble.

"In the archaic period (1100-490) the figures were often painted. Toward the end of that age it was found that a better effect could be secured, in representing the delicate skin of women, by leaving the polished marble without artificial tint."

Robby

MaryPage
February 16, 2003 - 06:25 am
Had to look up chiaroscuro, which shows how ignorant of art I am.

On page 223, I am absolutely fascinated by this sentance: "Painting was the last great art to develop in Greece, and the last to die."

The last to die! Is painting dead in Greece? JUSTIN! HELP!

tooki
February 16, 2003 - 07:40 am
The Durants previously covered Harmodius and Aristogeiton (p. 123-124), the story of two men who conspired for love and passion and became " martyrs of liberty."

The sculpture of them mentioned on p.221 is an example of hollow bronze casting. In the book, "Pictures and Passion; A history of Homosexuality in the Visual Arts," the authors have this interesting take on this famous sculpture and story.

(this sculpture) "demonstrates how highly classical society revered male comradeship as an inspiration to civic duty. It remains our most eloquent witness to the moral dignity associated with pederasty, which inspired lovers to deeds of valor in the public good."

tooki
February 16, 2003 - 07:45 am
Here are visuals:The Famous Civic Leaders

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2003 - 08:01 am
EXCELLENT visuals, Tooki! Please check them out, folks, and click onto the small photos to enlarge them.

Robby

Justin
February 16, 2003 - 05:31 pm
Yes, Mary Page, Painting in Greece died just as the temples crumpled and the bronzes were melted down. What we know of Greek art we get from Etruscan graves, and from Roman copies. The Greeks must have truly enjoyed painting for they colored almost everything once they learned to do it. Very little is left for us to see any color but some things are available. The Peplos Kore in the Acropolis museum and the Kore from Chios also at Athens exhibit some remains of color.

While we are sure there were some mural painting there is no physical evidence of it available.

Painting in two colors may be found in the vases. Multicolors came later from additional refinements in sifted clay and yellow ochre to make glazes.

Justin
February 16, 2003 - 05:59 pm
The great Greek innovations that artists of the Trecento in Italy were to bring back to establish what we know as the Renaissance, can be found in what we are now examining in Greek vases. That's a clumsy sentence but I want to point out how signifcant in art history is the work of these Greek artists who worked with potters. Renaissance means rebirth and it is the rebirth of the ideas and techniques of these Greek artists that will so influence art of the western world.

The great names of Renaissance art- Cimabue, Pisano, and Giotto in the Trecento and Masaccio,Donatello, Mantegna and Pollaiuolo in the quatrocentro. These artists all struggled to bring back what the Greeks had made available in the fifth century BCE and what the Dark Ages had lost.

Justin
February 16, 2003 - 07:06 pm
I think I can demonstrate for those of us who are interested some of the contributions made by Greek vase painters. I must rely on Mal to find the particular vases needed to make things clear.

There is a Krater by Euphronios,showing Heracles strangling Antaios. I am not sure where it is. It may be at Cerveteri.

We also need an Amphora by Euthymides called the Revelers. The Revelers is in Munich.

We also need a kylix from Vulci by the Brygos painter. It is also called the Revelers. It is at the University Museum in Wurtzburg. With these three I think we can show what the Greek revolution is all about. I will try at any rate.

Justin
February 16, 2003 - 07:11 pm
Mal you might look for one more piece. We had it up once before. It's called the Narmer Palette. It is in the Egyptian Museum at Cairo and dates back to 3000 BCE.

Malryn (Mal)
February 16, 2003 - 08:05 pm
NARMER PALLETTE

Malryn (Mal)
February 16, 2003 - 08:12 pm
Krater Ephronios detail

Krater Ephronios detail

Malryn (Mal)
February 16, 2003 - 08:14 pm
Euthymides: The Revelers

Malryn (Mal)
February 16, 2003 - 08:17 pm
Brygos: The Revelers

Justin
February 16, 2003 - 11:33 pm
Outstanding Mal, Thank you.

The greeks gave us four new elements in art- Naturalism, Balance, Movement, and Foreshortening. These elements may seen and recognized in comparison with earlier work.

Consider the king in the Narmer Palette. He is a flat image on a two dimensional space. The artist shows that Narmer strides by advancing the far leg with both feet flat on the ground. The suggestion of movement is unnatural. Try it. You will see that it is unnatural. This technique of advancing the far leg with both feet flat on the ground was used for twenty five hundred years- Until Euthymides and the Brygos painter came along.

In Euthymides "Reveler" the central figure is seen in three quarter view, striding with the near leg advanced and the foot of the far leg touching the floor only by the ball. This is natural movement. Try it. You will see. The drapery moves in a more natural manner. It drops straight from an extended arm. Euthymides makes an effort to achieve foreshortening of the figures. He does not completely succeed by any means but he does struggle with the problem. The figures in this image twist and turn as never before giving us a sense of movement.

The Brygos painter goes beyond Euthymides. Not only does he present a striding figure with the near leg advanced but he also shows a shoulder turned diagonally toward the viewer. You can see this in the two central figures in the Brygos "Revelers". The result is the first true contraposto stance that we have. These figures are each acting as a unit in natural motion. The drapery we see is indented and bent where a body part impacts it. The flow of the drapery is natural.

In the Euphronios Krater, Heracles Strangling Antaios, the figures are in wrestling positions. The figures are roughly foreshortened and the painter strives to show the strain of muscles as well as tension in movement. He does not completely succeed but the effort tells us that movement is a desirable thing to achieve.

These three paintings exhibit early efforts to make figures on a two dimensional surface appear to have depth and volume.

We have in these vases seen attempts to achieve balance, movement, foreshortening, and natural depiction. Eighteen Hundred years later the artists of the Proto Renaissance will take up where these painters left off and they will achieve what the Greeks first attempted.

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2003 - 05:17 am
Excellent links, Mal! And thank you, Justin, for your detailed comments about each work of art.

Robby

Bubble
February 17, 2003 - 05:29 am
I read/admired these with lots of interest. Thanks

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2003 - 06:27 am
With your permission, I am posting here a link to an article in today's New York Times about ABRAHAM LINCOLN partly because it is Presidents Day and partly because the Greek word "kleos" is mentioned, the concept around which the article revolves. I hope you won't find this too off-topic.

Robby

MaryPage
February 17, 2003 - 08:06 am
If you go over into POETRY, you will find Marjorie has posted a poem titled NANCY HANKS which is a most poignant verse about Abe Lincoln.

On the Egyptian piece, I found myself wondering if the king's sandals were off because he had gone out on a wooden palette, or walkway made of wooden slats so as to kill his prisoner and toss him to the crocodiles. In marshlands today, we still use these slatted wooden walkways A LOT.

In the second piece, I wonder why the Greeks were totally naked, with no shoes or sandals, yet leg and knee armor and shields! If this is truly representative, it seems ludicrous!

The wavy, snaky hair reminds me of dreadlocks, and leaves me wondering if they perhaps never washed or combed their hair. Then, where they appear totally naked with long scarves around their necks and trailing down, I am itching to know what the scarves meant. Were they in team colors? Did they indicate rank or accomplishment? The only thing I feel certain of is that they were not for modesty!

In the last, the principal figure is again totally naked except for his cape. Do these "Revels" show us the earliest Greek dancing? Or did they dance long before they depicted it?

Shasta Sills
February 17, 2003 - 11:00 am
Justin, you forgot to tell us one thing: what IS a pallette? I know what an artist's palette is, having used one all my life. I also know what a pallet is, having occasionally slept on one. The dictionary says a pallette is part of a warrior's armor. Is it a shield? Now MaryPage complicates things by describing a palette as a walkway in a swamp. This is really an all-purpose word.

MaryPage
February 17, 2003 - 11:34 am
Oops! I would fault me and correct my spelling to pallet, "a portable platform for moving or storing cargo or freight." per Webster's!

Justin
February 17, 2003 - 01:36 pm
The Narmer Palette is a slab of slate in the shape of a shield that was used to mix eye make-up. Eye make up was necessary in Egypt to protect the eyes against sun glare. It is about two feet high with relief inscribed on two sides. It is an object that was common in the predynastic time period. As an historical document it records the unification of the two Egypts.

We are looking at the Greek basis for the Renaissance. It could be missed, easily, if one were not looking for it while examining Greek Art. The techniques of representation in the Palette lasted for twenty five hundred years-until the Greeks of the 5th century introduced new ways of depiction. These new techniques passed out of use after the Romans. They were revived by the leading artists of Italy and the North of Europe beginning in 1300 CE. The revival is called the Renaissance.

Shasta Sills
February 17, 2003 - 04:19 pm
This elaborate thing was used to mix EYE MAKE-UP??? If anybody but Justin had told me that, I would say he was pulling my leg. But I know Justin would never kid around about art history.

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2003 - 06:37 pm
Those in this discussion group who participated in "Our Oriental Heritage" may find this DISCOVERY described in today's NY Times of interest. Apparently the items were created in approximately the same period that we are now examining in Ancient Greece.

Robby

Justin
February 17, 2003 - 09:27 pm
I doubt the Narmer Palette was used for mixing eye make-up but shield shaped palettes with out the elaborate relief work were used for mixing purposes. The palette, before it was carved, was a common object. We do that as well, today. Shovels, buck saws, piano facings, shawls, scarfs, etc are decorated, some very elaborately.

Malryn (Mal)
February 17, 2003 - 10:29 pm
Dance in Ancient Greece

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2003 - 05:08 am
Durant continues about sculpture:--

"The Greeks of Ionia were the first to discover the uses of drapery as a sculptural element. Egypt and the Near East had left the clothing rigid -- a vast stone apron nullifying the living form. In sixth-century Greece the sculptors introduced folds into the drapery, and used the garment to reveal that ultimate source and norm of beauty, the healthy human body.

"Nevertheless the Egypto-Asiatic influence remained so strong that in most archaic Greek sculpture the figure is heavy, graceless, and stiff. The legs are strained even in repose. The arms hang helpless at the sides. The eyes have the almond form, and occasionally an Oriental slant. The face is stereotyped, immobile, passionless.

"Greek statuary, in this period, accepted the Egyptian rule of frontality -- i.e. the figure was made to be seen only from the front, and so rigidly bisymmetrical that a vertical line would pass through the nose, mouth, navel, and genitals with never a right or left deviation, and no flexure of either motion or rest. Perhaps convention was responsible for this dull rigidity. The law of the Greek games forbade a victor to set up a portrait statue of hmself unless he had won all contests in the pentathlon. Only then, the Greeks argued, would he achieve the harmonious physical development that would merit individual modeling.

"For this reason, and perhaps because, as in Egypt, religious convention before the fifth century governed the representation of the gods, the Greek sculptor confined himself to a few poses and types, and devoted himself to their mastery."

Any comments at this time about sculpture -- either of those times or of today?

Robby

MaryPage
February 18, 2003 - 07:53 am
Wonderful site. I love the dance. The story of it originating as a means of concealing the cries of the infant Zeus is delicious. Makes you just see the whole thing. The descriptions of the types of dancing three thousand years ago show that not all that much has changed. I particularly noted "Dances of people with low cultural level are characterized by sexual elements and movements of the pelvis." This describes my own sensibilities. Pity so many of us in our culture are now caught between a desire to turn off the vulgar in our drama, music and dance, and an appreciation of what it means to be free. I know this bothers me a lot. I have even fantasized a summit consisting of a delegation of mullahs from the Islamic Fundamentalists and a delegation of our artists who are Grammy, Golden Globe, and Oscar winners, etc. An agreement is made that we will cover up, close the gap between shirt and slacks, return to one-piece swimsuits, spurn the spotlight on cleavage, and stop filming nudity and passion, pseudo and otherwise. They agree to allow women to show their faces and wear scarves in lieu of the burka, educate all females, and not to want to wipe us off the face of this planet. If our beautiful young gods and goddesses opt for modesty, so will all the rest of our young. They see us as evil personified because of our depravity. We see them as evil because they want to delete us by any means possible. So we meet half way, and everything is solved. In my dreams.

Shasta Sills
February 18, 2003 - 08:57 am
Now, Justin, I'm a gardener and I know a lot about shovels, and I have to tell you there is no such thing as a decorated shovel. Shawls and scarves yes, but shovels no.

What a shame that the Chinese made all that sculpture and then buried it. Humans have always gone to so much trouble trying to overcome death.

It seems strange to me that Plato admired dancing but despised poetry. Of course, the Greeks admired the physical life, but Plato was a thinker. The dancing he admired would have had to be very disciplined and patterned.

Malryn (Mal)
February 18, 2003 - 09:06 am
I've come to the conclusion that the thing that separates people from other people is that we all think we're right and others are wrong.
"I'm right."

"No, you're not; I'm right."

"You're not right! I am!

"You're not! I am!"

"I am!!"
Where else can attitudes like that lead except to a fight? The people who can listen to and really hear what someone else is saying and pick out likenesses and not differences are the ones who can get along and the ones who will survive.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 18, 2003 - 09:59 am

APHRODITE OF MELOS

HubertPaul
February 18, 2003 - 11:03 am
right or wrong(left)

When I was in Australia, I said to a guy:"you are driving on the wrong side of the road."

He looked at me amd said :" Look mate, you blokes are driving on the wrong side."

I answered:" Couldn't be so, we are driving on the right side."

)

Justin
February 18, 2003 - 12:49 pm
OK, Shasta; No Shovels. How about bucking saws?

Shasta Sills
February 18, 2003 - 04:00 pm
I don't know what a bucking saw is. My expertise only extends to shovels.

MaryPage
February 18, 2003 - 05:36 pm
If I ever get to Greece (dream on!), and I am walking among pieces of temple columns scattered about without capitals, I HOPE I can figure whether they are Doric or Ionic! Doric had shallow, sharp-edged grooves and Ionic had deep, semicircular grooves separated by flat edges. If someone elects to treat me to a trip there, I'll write myself notes about this.

Ha! Never knew this, and SHOULD have made the obvious connection. Well, I did not. A Greek museum was a place dedicated to the Muses and the arts they represented! And get this: before the 6th century B.C. there was almost NO Greek literature which did not include Music!

And this! There were TWO HUNDRED ( 200 ) Greek dance forms! Finally, on page 229, this line stopped me in my tracks. "....began that long degeneration which at last reduced poetry to a fallen angel silent and confined." Still musing about that one!

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2003 - 06:07 pm
Further comments by Durant about sculpture:--

"A lass of corinth drew upon a wall the outline of the shadow that the lamplight made of her lover's head. Her father Butades, a potter, filled in the outline with clay, pressed the form to hardness, took it down, and baked it. So, Pliny assure us, bas-relief was born. The art became even more important than sculpture in the adornment of temples and graves. Already in 520 Aristocles made a funeral relief of Aristion, which is one of the many treasures of the Athens Museum.

"Since reliefs were nearly always painted, sculpture, relief, and painting were allied arts, usually handmaids to architecture. Most artists were skilled in all four forms. Temple moldings, friezes, metopes, and pediment backgrounds were usually painted, while the main structure was ordinarily left in the natural color of the stone.

"Of painting as a separate art we have only negligible remains from Greece. We know through passages in the poets that panel painting, with colors mixed in melted wax, was already practiced in the days of Anacreon."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2003 - 05:08 am
"All in all, the sixth century failed to rise, in any Greek art except architecture, to the boldness of conception or the perfection of form attained in the same age by Greek philosophy and poetry. Perhaps artistic patronage was slow to develop in an aristocracy still rural and poor, or in a business class too young to have graduated from wealth to taste.

"Nevertheless the age of the dictators was a period of stimulation and improvement in every Greek art -- above all, under Peisistratus and Hippias in Athens. Toward the end of this period the old rigidity of sculpture began to thaw, the rule of frontality was broken down. Legs began to move, arms to leave the side, hands to open up, faces to take on feeling and character, bodies to bend in a variety of poses revealing new studies in anatomy and action. This revolution in sculpture, this animation of stone with life, became a major event in Greek history. The excape from frontality was one of the signal accomplishments of Greece.

"Egyptian and Oriental influences were set aside, and Greek art became Greek."

Any additional comments as we leave the sculpture of that period?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 19, 2003 - 09:54 am
Detail of the bas relief made by Aristion

Malryn (Mal)
February 19, 2003 - 09:59 am
More sculpture by Praxiteles. Click right arrow bottom of page for more

gaj
February 19, 2003 - 10:08 am
While reading your last two posts, Robby, I was struck with an idea. You posted "Nevertheless the age of the dictators was a period of stimulation and improvement in every Greek art -- above all, under Peisistratus and Hippias in Athens." The same happened under Queen Elizabeth the First of England. Does it take a strong leader to give the artisans the freedom to create?

BaBi
February 19, 2003 - 10:28 am
I had to go look up 'metope', and thus added to my little hoard of knowledge. Metope, I find, is the space between the triglyphs of a Doric frieze, which in ancient times was often carved. Now the next time I see carving between triglyphs of a frieze, I can learnedly exclaim, "Ah, a fine metope." (*^*)

Good point, GinnyAnn. A strong government means stability and security, which allows time for the creation and enjoyment of the arts. We don't see much attention given to the arts in times of hardship, do we? ...Babi

MaryPage
February 19, 2003 - 11:06 am
BaBi, we're soulmates! I had the identical reaction.

Now if we can just win a trip for two to Greece, we can go show off!

robert b. iadeluca
February 19, 2003 - 12:00 pm
Can we agree that a strong government is beneficial assuming that the government is pro-art?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 19, 2003 - 12:11 pm
As long as that strong government is willing to subsidize artists. Artists can't live on clay, chisels, hammers, marble, pigments, brushes and material to paint on alone.

Mal

MaryPage
February 19, 2003 - 01:09 pm
YES!

Justin
February 19, 2003 - 02:56 pm
A strong government may or may not be beneficial regardless of its willingness to support the arts. U.S. Government is strong and it fails to support the arts. French Government is weak and it supports the arts. This is a typical "apples and oranges" type question.

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 05:30 am
Durant moves us on:--

"Across the Dark Age from Agamemnon to Terpander, the Mycenaean megaron transmitted the essentials of its structure to Greece. The rectangular shape of the building, the use of columns within and without, the circular shaft and simple square capital, the triglyphs and metopes of the entablature, were all preserved in the greatest achievement of Greek art, the Doric style.

"But whereas Mycenaean architecture was apparently secular, devoted to palaces and homes, classical Greek architecture was almost entirely religious. The royal megaron was transformed into a civic temple as monarchy waned and religion and democracy united the affections of Greece in horing the personified city in its god."

Aside from our possibly learning some new technical words here, we also hear from Durant that "religion and democracy" united. Interesting concept.

Robby

moxiect
February 20, 2003 - 05:37 am
Hi Robby Just to let you I am still here and learning a great deal!

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 06:00 am
Hi, Moxi! That goes for me too!

Robby

Shasta Sills
February 20, 2003 - 07:46 am
Praxiteles is not my favorite sculptor. His figures are too effeminate. Look at those slender legs and delicate ankles. Those are women's legs on a male figure. Sometimes sculptors get their signals crossed. Michelangelo was just the opposite of Praxiteles. He loved muscles. He put muscles on everybody, even the women. He really didn't like the female figure. If they insisted he carve a woman, he produced a castrated male with two doorknobs attached to his chest. I can hear him saying bitterly, "Well, there!. That's the best I can do."

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 07:49 am
Shasta:--A very visual post!

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 20, 2003 - 08:01 am
As far as I know, Michelangelo used only male models.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
February 20, 2003 - 08:04 am

Myceneaen architecture, incuding a reconstruction of the Megaron at Pylos

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 08:19 am
Excellent link, Mal!

Robby

Justin
February 20, 2003 - 01:26 pm
Michelangelo used only male models. Artists paid undertakers to examine nudes and fellows like Leonardo did a little sereptitious autopsy now and then. Leonardo worked with dressed women and Bottecelli used his nude mistress for Venus on the half shell but Michelangelo was homosexual and had no access to nude women. Clearly, Michelangelo's women are not women. Gals did not pump iron in those days nor did they have breasts like grapefruit halves with and without cherry nipples. But the "David". Now, that's something else.

Justin
February 20, 2003 - 01:31 pm
Nothing unusual about democracy and religion working hand in glove. It was a useful tool for government then and in prior governments and is still very useful today. American presidents, without religion to help them, would have no way to end a speech.

Shasta Sills
February 20, 2003 - 02:56 pm
Yes, David is quite a lad. And Mary in the Pieta is not bad. Of course, she is covered in drapery so her muscles don't show, but she must have some because she's holding a full-grown man in her lap. I shouldn't be so facetious. I really love Michelangelo.

MaryPage
February 20, 2003 - 03:11 pm
Well, so do we all, SASH; but you had it right in the first place! I mean, a thing is a thing is a thing.

I have discovered a treasure trove (well, maybe you won't think so) of JOKES from Ancient Greece. They are to be found on page 121 of the new book titled EUROPE by Norman Davies. Will tell them later, as I'm in a tearing rush at the mo.

Malryn (Mal)
February 20, 2003 - 03:49 pm
The Doric Order



The Ionic Order



The Corinthian Order

MaryPage
February 20, 2003 - 05:17 pm
I do not understand why the triglyphs in the Doric friezes are proof these temples evolved from wooden ones. I mean, I am quite willing to believe they began with wooden ones, it just plain makes sense. BUT it is a leap for me to believe the triglyphs prove it! JUSTIN!!

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 05:27 pm
I printed out those three links and will look at them regularly. I will get to recognize the differences between Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian architecture before we get to the end of The Life of Greece if it kills me -- not to mention being able to know what is a triglyph, pediment, abacus, metope, frieze, echinus, and a stylobate.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 05:53 pm
MaryPage:--I think you barred yourself.

Robby

GusN
February 20, 2003 - 06:21 pm
I appreciate a joke that is in good taste... but MaryPage has crossed the line.

Apologies are in order.

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 07:07 pm
Nice to have you with us, Gus. What are some of your opinions regarding the Greek architecture?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 07:20 pm
"Since the interior of the temple was reserveed for the god and his ministrants, and worship was held outside, all three orders (Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian) devoted themselves to making the exterior impressively beautiful. They began at the ground, usually in some elevated place, with the stereobate -- two or three layers of foundation stone in receding steps. From the uppermost layer, or stylobate, rose directly without individual base, the Doric column -- 'fluted' with shallow, sharp-edged grooves, and widening perceptibly at the middle in what the Greeks called entasis, or stretching.

"Furthermore, the Doric column tapered slightly toward the top, thereby emulating the tree, and successfully contradicting the Minoan-Mycenaean style. (An undiminished shaft -- worse yet, one that tapers downward -- seems top-heavy and graceless, to the eye, while the wider base heightens that sense of stability which all architecture should convey. Perhaps, however, the Doric column is too heavy, too thick in proportion to its height, too stolidly engrossed in sturdiness and strength.)

"Upon the Doric column sat its simple and powerful capital -- a 'necking' or circular band, a cushionlike echinus, and, topmost, a square abacus to spread the supporting thrust of the pillar beneath the architrave."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2003 - 07:44 pm
A recent ARTICLE in the NY Times about "Frank Lloyd Wright Architecture."

Robby

gaj
February 20, 2003 - 08:40 pm
A strong government sets the stage for the arts, but doesn't always fund the arts.

To me when government and religion - that is a state religion - go hand in hand it can only bring trouble. Some of the worst genocide(sp?)has occured in the name of some religion(God).

Justin
February 21, 2003 - 01:17 am
Mary Page: The jokes were a joke better left to the ancient Greeks.

Some scholars think the origin of Doric column, capital and entablature is wood as in Mycenean buildings. The adherants think the triglyphs represent the ends of wood beams resting on the architrave, the mutules represent the ends of sloping rafters, and the guttae the wood pegs which held the timbers together. The opponents cite the capital as not likely to have originated in wood. Its formation is not a possible wood formation. The same is true for the echinus. I guess Durant sides with the woodees. I side with the stonees.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 03:58 am
"While the Dorians were developing this style from the megaron, modified probably by acquaintance with the Egyptian 'proto-Doric' colonnades of Der-el-Bahri and Beni-Hasan, the Ionian Greeks were altering the same fundamental form under Asiatic influence. In the resultant Ionic order a slender column rose upon an individual base, and began at the bottom, as it ended at the top, with a narrow filler or band. Its height was usually greater, and its diameter smaller, than in the Doric shaft. The upward tapering was scarcely perceptable. The flutings were deep, semicircular grooves separated by flat edges.

"The Ionic capital was composed of a narrow echinus, a still narrower abacus, and between them -- almost concealing them -- emerged the twin spirals of a volute, like an infolded scroll -- a graceful element adapted from Hittite, Assyrian, and other Oriental forms. These characteristics, together with the elaborate adornment of the entablature, described not only a style but a people. They represented in stone the Ionian expressiveness, suppleness, sentiment, elegance, and love of delicate detail, even as the Doric order conveyed the proud reserve, the massive strength, the severe simplicity of the Dorian. The sculpture, literature, music, manners, and dress of the rival groups differed in harmony with their architectural styles.

"Dorian architecture is mathematics. Ionian architecture is poetry. Both seeking the durability of stone. The one is 'Nordic.' The other Oriental. Together they constitute the masculine and feminine themes in a basically harmonious form."

My printing out those links Mal gave us which had illustrations of both Doric and Ionic architecture helped me tremendously in understanding these preceding paragraphs. I don't pretend to be even an amateur architect, but Durant's description of "mathematics vs poetry" and "Nordic vs Oriental" came to life for me as I examined those columns.

I continue to have an increasing admiration for the two Durants as I see the broad knowledge they have. I don't know about you folks but the historians I have read over the years may have been solid in their facts but lacking in their aesthetic backgrounds.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 04:47 am
Here is a PHOTO of the U.S. Treasury Building showing the Greek influence.

Robby

MaryPage
February 21, 2003 - 04:48 am
I do apologize at offending. I posted the jokes exactly the way they appeared on page 121 of a chapter titled "Ancient Greece" in a book you can find in any and every bookstore today. The book is titled EUROPE , A History and is by Norman Davies and was first published in 1998. This particular section consists of translations from the actual Greek and is in there for the purpose of letting us know that humor (?) existed back then and what it consisted of. I found them unsophisticated, and was making a joke of them being funny. Horrified to have offended. Sincerely.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 04:51 am
Here is a PHOTO of the U.S. Treasury Building showing the Greek influence.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 04:53 am
Here is some INTERESTING INFORMATION on why and how American architecture was influenced by the Ancient Greeks.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 05:11 am
Would you like a BIRD FEEDER in classic Greek design?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 05:16 am
And then there were the SOUTHERN PLANTATION HOMES.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 05:23 am
Just one more LINK to antebellum homes.

Any comments here about Greek architectural influence in Western culture?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 21, 2003 - 08:06 am
Mary Page, my friend, those Ancient Greek jokes weren't offensive. They were just as dumb as some of the humor we hear today.

I grew up in a New England house which had Doric pillars on the small front porch.

Here's one you'll recognize.
TARA

Malryn (Mal)
February 21, 2003 - 08:31 am
Below is a link to a picture of a plantation house in Charleston, South Carolina, which has some of the most beautiful gardens I've ever seen. When I sat in a rocker on the porch of this great house and looked out over the greensward, the long drive with live oaks on either side, whose tops meet like a canopy over it, and the cabins used by slaves, I had my first real understanding as a Yankee of what the old South must have been.
MAGNOLIA PLANTATION

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 12:55 pm
"Greek architecture distinguished itself by developing the column into an element of beauty as well as a structural support. The essential function of the external colonnade was to uphold the eaves, and to relieve the walls of the naos, or inner temple, from the outward thrust of the gabled roof. Above the columns rose the entablature -- i.e. the superstructure of the edifice.

"Here again, as in the supporting elements, Greek architecture sought a clear differentiation, and yet an articulated connection, of the members. The architrave -- the great stone that connected the capitals -- was in the Doric order plain, or carried a simple painted molding. In Ionic it was composed of three layers, each projecting below, and was topped with a marble cornice segmented with a confusing variety of ornamental details. Since the sloping beams that made the framework of the roof in the Doric style came down, and were secured, between two horizontal beams at the eaves, the united ends of the three beams formed -- at first in wood, then imitatively in stone -- a triglyph or triply divided surface.

"Between each triglyph and the next a space was left as an open window when the roof was of wood or of terra-cotta tiles. When translucent marble tiles were used, these metopes, or "seeing-between" places, were filled in with marble slabs carved in low relief.

"In the Ionic style a band or frieze of reliefs might run around the upper outer walls of the naos or cella. In the fifth century both forms of relief -- metopes and frieze -- were often used in the same building, as in the parthenon.

"In the pediments -- the triangles formed by the gabled roof in front and rear -- the sculptor found his greatest opportunity. The figures here might be drawn out in high relief and enlarged for view from below. The cramped corners, or tympana, tested the subtlest skill. Finally, the roof itself might be a work of art, with brilliantly colored tiles and decorative rain-disposing acroteria, or pinnacle figures, rising from the angles of the pediments.

"All in all, there was probably a surplus of sculpture on the Greek temple, between the columns, along the walls, or within the edifice. The painter also was involved. The temple was colored in whole or in part, along with its statues, moldings, and reliefs. Perhaps we do the Greeks too much honor today, when time has worn the paint from their temples and divinities, and ferrous strains have lent to the marble natural and incalcuable hues that set off the brilliance of the stone under the clear Greek sky.

Some day even contemporary art may become beautiful."

Once again I am glad I printed out Mal's link with the labeled illustrations showing the difference between Doric and Ionic columns.

Robby

Shasta Sills
February 21, 2003 - 03:25 pm
The Greeks demonstrated how beautiful "vertical" is. Frank Lloyd Wright showed us that "horizontal" is also beautiful. I was completely fascinated when I first saw pictures of his houses. One of the things he did was show us that concrete can be made beautiful. Concrete, the ugliest substance on earth. I was a young sculpture student then, and I began to make concrete sculpture. In those days, I could lift a 60-pound bag of cement. I am amazed when I think of that now. But I still love concrete. I blame this peculiarity of mine on Wright.

Justin
February 21, 2003 - 04:25 pm
Shasta; 60 pound bags of cement have as a companion, 100 pound bags of sand. That's a lot of lifting for man or woman. You must have been a powerful young gal. We can see that you are still a powerful older woman.

What kind of shapes did you form in concrete? Did you use a mold? I notice that garden shops today carry mold formed concrete shapes of animals etc.

Justin
February 21, 2003 - 04:44 pm
Greek Revival in the US was called Neoclassicism in Europe. It appeared after the excesses of the Rococo style. Napoleon Bonaparte and Jacque Louis David revived classicism together. Nappy saw himself as a roman emperor and depicted himself and his armies in that manner. Army regiments carried eagles just as the legions of Rome carried them.

Jefferson was in Paris in this period and absorbed its interest in neoclassicism. He brought it back to the US with him and designed Montecello in the revived Greek style. When he was President he allocated funds for Federal buildings designed in the classical style. He designed the buildings of the University of Virginia in the same style. Washington's Mount Vernon home follows a similar pattern.

It was from these early beginnings that the American Greek Revival spread. We were of course partial to the French for their help at Yorktown. One also cannot forget the effects of the powerful Genet Affair. After 1812, we rooted for the Greeks over the Turks. These are things which seem to influence taste moving in one direction or another.

Justin
February 21, 2003 - 05:00 pm
It is interesting that Shasta should mention the introduction of verticality in Greek architecture. It comes with Asian influence in the Ionic style. When compared with the heavy horizontality of the Doric style, the Ionic forms are slender and curvilinear and emphasize verticality. A trend toward verticality will take precedence in Medieval times when the characteristic will suggest a religious interest in things above us- in heaven. For now, it is useful, I think, to simply recognize that verticality had a Greek appearance.

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 07:24 pm
Here is a PHOTO of Washington's Mount Vernon home.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2003 - 07:28 pm
Here is a PHOTO of Jefferson's Monticello.

Robby

Justin
February 21, 2003 - 11:44 pm
Before we get too far away from Lesbos and Sappho I wish to say that I found some of Sappho's poetry in a collection by Barbara Warren. The lines were brief but the message strong. I'll leave it to you folks to judge the poetry's power.

TO EROS

You burn me.

TO EROS

From all the offspring

of the earth and heaven

love is the most precious.

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2003 - 06:29 am
Durant concludes "Architecture" with the following:--

"The two rival styles achieved grandeur in the sixty century, and perfection in the fifth. Geographically they divided Greece unevenly. Ionic prevailed in Asia and the Aegean. Doric on the mainland and in the west. The salient achievements of sixth-century Ionic were the temples of Artemis at Ephesus, of Hera at Samoa, and of the Branchidae near Miletus. Only ruins survive of Ionic architecture before Marathon.

"The finest extant buildings from the sixth century are the older temples of Paestum and Sicily, all in the Doric style. The ground plan remains of the great temple built at Delphi, between 548 and 512, from the designs of the Corinthian Spintharus. It was destroyed by earthquake in 373, was rebuilt on the same plan, and in that form still stood when Pausanias made his tour of Greece.

"Athenian architecture of the period was almost wholly Doric. In this style Peisistratus began, around 530, the gigantic temple of the Olympian Zeus, on the plain at the foot of the Acropolis.

"After the Persian conquest of Ionia in 546, hundreds of Ionian artists migrated to Attica, and introduced or developed the Ionic style in Athens."

Any comments as we leave "Architecture?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 22, 2003 - 08:09 am
Architecture by Spintharus

Shasta Sills
February 22, 2003 - 08:52 am
Justin, I made my own molds and poured cement into them. I was doing portraits mostly and a few figures. The trick was to get the cement mixed to the right consistency. If it was too thick, it wouldn't flow into all the nooks and crannies, and if it was too thin, it would be brittle and would crack. My portraits have stood the test of time, so I guess I had the consistency right. But the figures I did were not very large and I had trouble getting the arms and legs to fill with cement, so I just cut the arms and legs off. I thought "ancient sculpture still looks good without arms and legs, so why shouldn't modern sculpture?" Where there's a will, there's a way.

Malryn (Mal)
February 22, 2003 - 09:19 am
Shasta, my family and I here in North Carolina have a friend who is a very successful cement artist and sculptor. I am lucky enough to own some pieces he made.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2003 - 11:34 am
Shasta:--Maybe the ancient sculptors did the same thing with the arms and legs that you did.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2003 - 12:33 pm
Durant and the GREEN quotes above move us on:--

"Plato's Academy was called a Museion or Museum -- i.e. a place dedicated to the Muses and the many cultural pursuits which they patronized. The Museum at Alexandria was a university of literary and scientific activity, not a collection of museum pieces.

"In the narrower and modern sense, music was at least as popular among the Greeks as it is among ourselves today. In Arcadia all freemen studied music to the age of thirty. Everyone knew some instrument. To be unable to sing was accounted a disgrace.

"Lyric poetry was so named because, in Greece, it was composed to be sung to the accompaniment of the lyre, the harp, or the flute. The poet usually wrote the music as well as the words, and sang his own songs. To be a lyric poet in ancient Greece was far more difficult than to compose, as poets do today, verses for silent and solitary reading.

"Before the sixth century there was hardly any Greek literature divorced from music. Education and letters, as well as religion and war, were bound up with music. Martial airs played an important part in military training, and nearly all instruction of the memory was through verse.

"By the eighth century Greek music was already old, with hundreds of varieties and forms."

Do you folks see music today as being, in any way, tied up with education and letters, religion, and war? How about memory being aided through verse?

Robby

Bubble
February 22, 2003 - 01:07 pm
Rhymes and cadenza certainly help to remember properly. I know that in early primary school, when we had to memorize the multiplication table, this was done to a little scanded tune which made it that much easier to learn.

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2003 - 05:24 pm
Click HERE for Plato's Academy.

Robby

Justin
February 22, 2003 - 09:54 pm
Plato's Academy trained men for leadership roles in government. It functioned for 900 years until Justinian, in conflict with neoplatonism, shut it down- another fine example of religion suppressing independent thought.

Justin
February 22, 2003 - 11:17 pm
Here is another word from Sappho.

Ode TO AN UNEDUCATED WOMAN.

When dead you will lie forever forgotten,

for you have no clain to the Pierian roses.

Dim here, you will move more dimly in Hell,

flitting among the undistinguished dead.

3kings
February 23, 2003 - 02:00 am
SEA BUBBLE, I agree that rhymes help with memorizing such things as tables etc. My wife tells me that when she was trying to learn English after coming here from Europe, the rhyming couplets of Pope where a great help to her, particularly with pronunciations.-- Trevor

Bubble
February 23, 2003 - 03:33 am
Really Trevor? Pronounciation has become my personal nightmare since I read and write so much more than I speak. I will have to go look what Pope wrote. I only encountered the name in Xwords. Thanks! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 05:45 am
Here is a BRIEF BIO of Alexander Pope.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 05:55 am
Here is a LIST OF POEMS by Alexander Pope. He was definitely prolific!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 06:05 am
from An Essay on Man



Heav'n from all creatures hides the book of fate,
All but the page prescrib'd, their present state:
From brutes what men, from men what spirits know:
Or who could suffer being here below?
The lamb thy riot dooms to bleed today,
Had he thy reason, would he skip and play?
Pleas'd to the last, he crops the flow'ry food,
And licks the hand just rais'd to shed his blood.
Oh blindness to the future! kindly giv'n,
That each may fill the circle mark'd by Heav'n:
Who sees with equal eye, as God of all,
A hero perish, or a sparrow fall,
Atoms or systems into ruin hurl'd,
And now a bubble burst, and now a world.



Hope humbly then; with trembling pinions soar;
Wait the great teacher Death; and God adore.
What future bliss, he gives not thee to know,
But gives that hope to be thy blessing now.
Hope springs eternal in the human breast:
Man never is, but always to be blest:
The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.



Lo! the poor Indian, whose untutor'd mind
Sees God in clouds, or hears him in the wind;
His soul, proud science never taught to stray
Far as the solar walk, or milky way;
Yet simple nature to his hope has giv'n,
Behind the cloud topp'd hill, an humbler heav'n;
Some safer world in depth of woods embrac'd,
Some happier island in the wat'ry waste,
Where slaves once more their native land behold,
No fiends torment, no Christians thirst for gold.
To be, contents his natural desire,
He asks no angel's wing, no seraph's fire;
But thinks, admitted to that equal sky,



-- Alexander Pope

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 07:55 am
Durant continues about music:--

"The flute was favored at Athens until Alcibiades, laughing at his music master's inflated cheeks, refused to play so ridiculous an instrument, and set a fashion against it among Athenian youth. (Besides, said the Athenians, the Boeotians surpassed them with the flute, which branded the art as a vlugar one.)

"The simple flute, or aulos, was a tube of cane or bored wood with a detachable mouthpiece and from two to seven finger holes into which movable stopples might be inserted to modify the pitch. Some players used the double flute -- a 'masculine' or bass flute in the right hand and a 'feminine' or treble flute in the left, both held to the mouth by a strap around the cheeks, and played in simple harmony.

"By attaching the flute to a distensible bag the Greeks made a bagpipe. By uniting several graduated flutes they made a syrinx, or Pipe of Pan. By extending and opening the end, and closing the finger holes, they made a salpinx, or trumpet.

"Flute music, says Pausanias, was usually gloomy, and was always used in dirges or elegies. The auletridai -- the flute-playing geisha girls of Greece -- do not seem to have purveyed gloom. String music was confined to plucking the strings with finger or plectrum. Bowing was unknown.

"The lyre, phorminx, or kithara were essentially alike -- four or more strings of sheep gut stretched over a bridge across a resonant body of metal or tortoise shell. The kithara was a small harp, used for accompanying narrative poetry. The lyre was like a guitar, and was chosen to accompany lyric poetry and songs."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 23, 2003 - 08:42 am
When you click the thumbnail pictures on the page you'll access with the link below, you'll see a larger picture of various Ancient Greek musical instruments as depicted on pottery.

ANCIENT GREEK MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS

Malryn (Mal)
February 23, 2003 - 08:47 am
Click the link below to see a fragment of Ancient Greek music written in the Dorian Mode.

ANCIENT GREEK MUSIC

Malryn (Mal)
February 23, 2003 - 08:50 am
For those who know music and you who are interested, here's something about the various Greek Modes.

ANCIENT GREEK MODES

Bubble
February 23, 2003 - 09:44 am
So many interesting links, thanks!

There is such a difference of sounds between the single reed flute and the syrinx for example; they seem different instruments. Of course our metal flutes (gold one for Galways) sounds were unknown to ancient Greeks.

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 10:03 am
Here is an excellent link to the ORIGIN OF THE FLUTE with illustrative sketches.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 10:25 am
As ancient as flutes, fifes, etc. may be, their power never declined over the centuries. Click HERE to see their power in the formation of America.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 10:55 am
Want to have a thrilling few minutes? If you have Real Player, click HERE and listen to the song that everybody in America knows. And listen especially to the latter part when the fife (piccolo) is featured. There are two versions by the Dallas Wind Symphony and they are both magnificent.

They may take 3-4 minutes to load, but wait -- the 3 1/2 minues of music are well worth it. Turn your volume UP!!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 11:14 am
And now, to calm you down after that, click HERE to listen to the pipes as they probably sounded in the pastoral regions of Ancient Greece. Click onto the first melody listed (you all know it) and settle back to 9 glorious minutes of meditation.

Robby

Bubble
February 23, 2003 - 11:20 am
That live performance sounded exactly like a performance at the Proms in Albert Hall, London! I wonder if the public too was with funny hats and bumping hammers?



I have heard this particular march played by the military force in Katanga-Congo and they had adapted their own words in Swahili to it. If I am not mistaken it was for the separation of Katanga from the rest of Democratic Republic of Congo in the early 60s. This tune has sure covered a lot of ground!

Bubble
February 23, 2003 - 11:29 am
Great music, but not after the pipes! I cannot change moods that fast! I will reserve it for tonight before retiring, it will create pastoral dreams! Thanks Robby!

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2003 - 11:34 am
Click HERE to hear a few seconds of the sound of the lyre and the sound of the aulos (flute) as played by the Ancient Greeks.

Robby

Bubble
February 23, 2003 - 12:02 pm
I could not recognize the words in the second piece with lyre, but music and song sounded very similar to the sepharadic romanzos with mandolina. Those are songs of sad unfullfilled love with nightingales calls and maids waiting for their prince. Others talk of great deeds, one which recalls the king Nimrod is particularly famous.

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2003 - 05:51 am
"The Greeks told many strange tales of how Hermes, Apollo, and Athena had invented these instruments. How Apollo had pitted his lyre against the pipes and flutes of Marsyas (a priest of the Phrygian goddess Cybela), had won -- unfairly, as Marsyas thought -- by adding his voice to the instrument, and had topped the performance by having poor Marsyas flayed alive. Legend personified the conquest of the flute by the lyre.

"Prettier stories were told of ancient musicians who had established or developed the musical art -- of Olympus, Marsyas' pupil, who, towards 730, invented the enharmonic scale -- of Linus, Heracles' teacher, who invented Greek musical notation and estanblished some of the 'modes' of Orpheus, Thracian priest of Dionysus -- and of his pupil Musaeus, who said that 'song is a sweet thing to mortals.' These tales reflect the probable fact tht Greek music derived its forms from Lydia, Phrygia, and Thrace.

"Song entered into almost every phase of Greek life. There were dithyrambs for Dionysyus -- paeans for Apollo -- hymns for any god. There were enkomia, or songs of praise, for rich men, and epinikia, or songs of victory, for athletes. There were symposiaka, skolia, hymenaioi, elegiai, and threnoi for dining, drinking, loving, marrying, mourning, and burying.

"Herdsmen had their bukolika -- reapers their lityertes -- vinedressers their epilenia -- spinners their iouloi -- weavers their elinoi. And then, as now, presumably, the man in the market or the club -- the lady in the home and woman of the streets -- sang songs not quite as learned as Simonides'. Vulgar music and polite music have come down distantly together through the centuries."

Lots of Greek words here but if we look carefully, we see similar English words.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 24, 2003 - 08:07 am
"Apparently the Enharmonic derived from the ancient scales which were called harmonia, thus its name. That was the one with 'quarter-tones'. The chromatic had a pattern that more-or-less involved a succession of 2 semitones, and the Diatonic is the one we're most familiar with, using mainly 'whole tones' with a few semitones."
For our purposes, we can consider the F major scale as an Enharmonic Scale.
F, G, A, B flat, C, D, E, F.

Malryn (Mal)
February 24, 2003 - 08:15 am
Below is a link to fragments of Ancient Greek music in Real Audio (Real One) and midi form with the names of their composers. You do not need Real Audio to hear these midis.

Ancient Greek music sounds

Justin
February 24, 2003 - 10:43 pm
The state has tended over time to use whatever came to hand to maintain good order and discipline in the populace. Religion,police, troops, and music have all been effective in controlling great masses of citizenry. As recently as the US Civil War, drums and drummer boys kept order in the military ranks in battle formation. The bugle, the fife, and the bag pipe have all served to enhance state funerals. Drums have traditionally announced the progress of military punishment, including a march to the gallows and to the firing post.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2003 - 04:09 am
"For the Greek dance was quite different from ours. Though in some of its forms it may have served as a sexual stimulant, it rarely brought men into physical contact with women. It was an artistic exercise rather than a walking embrace. Like the Oriental dance, it used arms and hands as much as legs and feet. Its forms were as varied as the types of poetry and song. Ancient authorities listed two hundred.

"There were religious dances, as among the Dionysiac devotees. There were athletic dances, like Sparta's Gymnopedia, or Festival of Naked Youth. There were martial dances, like the Pyarrhic, taught to children as part of military drill. There were the stately hyporchema, a choral hymn or play performed by two choirs of which one alternately sang or danced while the other danced or sang. There were folk dances for every major event of life and every season or festival of the year.

"And as for everything else, there were dance contests, usually involving choral song."

As we move along in the Greek culture, I continue to see the Oriental influence as in the dances here. And I keep waiting to learn when Greece became less Oriental and more European -- if such a thing happened at all. Where or when was the time divide? I realize it didn't happen overnight but it did happen, did it not?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 25, 2003 - 08:52 am
ANCIENT GREEK DANCE

Malryn (Mal)
February 25, 2003 - 08:55 am
TSAMIKOS DANCE PICTURE

Malryn (Mal)
February 25, 2003 - 08:57 am
GREEK DANCE HISTORY AND PICTURES

Malryn (Mal)
February 25, 2003 - 09:07 am
The link below takes you to a page which is in Hebrew. There are wonderful pictures on it. Perhaps Bubble will tell us something about what is said on this page.

GREEK DANCES

Shasta Sills
February 25, 2003 - 10:33 am
Beautiful pictures, Mal. How do you find all these wonders?

I've studied a little Greek philosophy and a little Greek sculpture, but I didn't know the Greeks had so much music and dance. It makes you wish you had lived back then. Could the Durants be painting too rosy a picture? Do you think the Greeks really had this much fun, with all that singing and dancing?

Justin
February 25, 2003 - 02:40 pm
The shift from Oriental to occidental must have been very gradual and initially caused by colonization but in the final analysis the aftermath of Alexander and the Roman influence introducing the Ptolomies and Hellenism must have caused a significant shift toward the occidental. By 325 BCE one can see clearly occidental influence in Greek art.

Hellenism is a Fourth century phenomenon with occidental roots. Greek art forms assume a more natural appearance in this period. It is, however, a little early to discuss this characteristic for we have yet to treat the Classical period in Greece-The age of Phidias.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2003 - 03:03 pm
Justin:--I often wondered about that term Hellenism. Sometimes that was used and sometimes the word "Greek" and I never understood the difference.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 25, 2003 - 03:05 pm
I am more than a little upset because Mary Page has cancelled her subscription to this discussion because a few people did not like the Ancient Greek jokes she posted here. Those jokes were directly quoted from a book called "Europe, A History". The jokes are well authenticated, and were not a figment of Mary Page's imagination. About them, she wrote to me and said:
"I detest slapstick and crude and poking fun at other peoples. The thing that fascinates me about these, and I erred in feeling everyone would feel the same, was that NOTHING HAS CHANGED in 2,500 years! That was my point, and my only point in posting them."
If you feel as I do that Mary Page has been a staunch supporter of this discussion, and has offered us much valuable information about Ancient History, not just Greek, I urge you to write her and encourage her to come back. You'll find her email address by clicking Outline and locating messages she has faithfully posted. Click her name, and you'll see that address.

You won't see this, dear Mary Page, but I beg you to come back.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2003 - 04:14 pm
"As time went on, and already in the seventh century, specialization and professionalism set in. The rhapodes abandoned song for recitation, and separated narrative verse from music. Archilochus sang his lyrics without accompaniment, and began that long degereration which at last reduced poetry to a fallen angel silent and confined.

"The choral dance broke up into singing without dancing, and dancing without singing. As Lucian put it, 'The violent exercise caused shortness of breath, and the song suffered for it.'

"In like manner there appeared musicians who played without singing, and won the applause of devotees by their precise and rapid execution of quarter tones. Some famous musicians, then as now, engrossed the receipts. Amoebeus, harpist and singer, received a talent ($6000) each time that he performed.

"The common player, doubtless, lived from hand to mouth. The musician, like other artists, belongs to a profession that has had the honor of starving in every generation."

The millennia have caused no change in the monetary value of musicians?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2003 - 05:28 pm
Durant (see GREEN quotes) moves on:--

"The sixth century, already distinguished in so many fields and lands, crowned its accomplishments by laying the foundations of the drama. It was one of the creative moments in history.

"Comedy, says Aristotle, developed 'out of those who led the phallic procession.' A company of people carrying sacred phalli, and singing dithyrambs to Dionysus, or hymns to some other vegetation god, constituted, in Greek terminology, a komos, or revel. Sex was essential, for the culmination of the ritual was a symbolic marrige aimed at the magic stimulation of the soil. In early Greek comedy, as in most modern comedies and novels, marriage and presumptive procreation form the proper ending of the tale.

"The comic drama of Greece remained until Meander obscene because its origin was frankly phallic. It was in its beginnings a joyous celebration of reproductive powers, and sexual restraints were in some measure removed. It was a day's moratorium on morals. Free speech (parrhasia) was then particularly free.

"Many of the paraders, dressed in Dionysian satyr style, wore a goat's tail and a large artificial phallus of red leather as part of their costume. This garb became traditional on the comic stage. It was a matter of sacred custom, religiously observed in Aristophanes.

"The phallus continued to be the inseparable emblem of the clown until the fifth century of our era in the West, and the last century of the Byzantine Empire in the East. Along with the phallus, as in the Old Comedy, went the licentious kordax dance."

Interesting that we are discussing this just about when the Mardi Gras procession is about to take place.

Robby

Justin
February 26, 2003 - 12:42 am
Durant says , the Greek drama grew, as ours, out of religious ritual. Our drama grew out of the mystery plays of the middle ages which were designed to teach the mysteries of the Mass. Greek drama grew out of ritual itself. It was a celebration of the passion and death of the god, Dionysos. A statue of the God Dionysia was placed before the stage so the God could also enjoy the performance..

It was at Eleusis where the ritual drama of Persephone, Demeter, and Dionysus were performed annually. When Thespis performed at Athens, Durant tells us, Solon was shocked and denounced the art form as immoral. Further, Durant says, the charge has been heard in every century. In the l930's in American cities, vaudeville was dying but the burlesque was thriving under duress from the Church and other moral guardians. The American burlesque celebrated sex in an amusing manner, just as did the early Greek plays

The Greek plays dealt with sex and procreation, with life death and resurection. The symbol of the religion was the phallus and it's appearance was prominent. In Piraeus today, one may purchase directional artifacts-a phallus which is still quite common.

3kings
February 26, 2003 - 01:00 am
MALRYN Strange that some could find those 'jokes' quoted by MaryPage to be offensive. Weak, and to some ears probably silly, even, but offensive? ( I looked up the quoted page of the book, to refresh my memory. Can see nothing that would lead to someone being banned.)

I wonder how they cope with some of the more 'raunchy' passages to be found in The Life of Greece, that Robby quotes for us.-- Trevor

Justin
February 26, 2003 - 01:11 am
Robby; Hellene is a name applied to all Greeks. The term is applied in four ways-(none of which derive from Helen).

A Greek is a Hellene.

Helladic refers to the Greek mainland mainly during the Bronze age. Mycenean for example, is called Late Helladic.

Hellenic is a term applied to Greek cultures from about 1100 BCE to the period of Alexander. Earlier periods are called Prehellenic or Helladic.

Hellenistic refers to the period between Alexander and Augustus. It was during this period that Greek power waned and new centers of art developed to influence the Greek artist and artisan.

Use of the term in so many different ways can be confusing. I hope this explanation clears things up somewhat.

Bubble
February 26, 2003 - 02:52 am
Greece is called HELLAS in the Greek language. If you were a postal stamp collector you could have seen it on all their stamps.



The Hebrew site mainly talk about Plato and how his whole philosophy and teaching was closely linked to music and dance, to rythm and elegance.

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2003 - 03:57 am
Justin:--Thanks for explaining Hellenic. It clears it all up for me (I think.)

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2003 - 04:15 am
"About 560 one Susarion of Megara Hyblaca, near Syracuse in Sicily, developed the processional mirth into brief plays of rough satire and comedy. From Sicily the new art passed into the Peloponnesus and then into Attica. Comedies were performed in the villages by traveling players or local amateurs. A century passed before the authorities -- to quote Aristotle's phrase -- treatd the comic drama seriously enough to give it (465 B.C.) a chorus for representation at an official festival.

"Tragedy arose from satyrlike Dionysian revelers. These satyr plays remained until Euripides an essential part of the Dionysian drama. Each composer of a tragic trilogy wa expected to make a concession to ancient custom by offering, as the fourth part of his presentation, a satyr play in honor of Dionysus. Says Aristotle, 'Being a development of the satyr play, it was quite late before tragedy rose from short plots and comic diction to its full dignity.'

"Doubtless other seeds matured in the birth of tragedy. Perhaps it took something from the ritual worship and appeasement of the dead. Essentially its source lay in mimetic religious ceremonies like the representation, in Crete, of the birth of Zeus or -- in Argos and Samoa, his symbolic marrige with Hera or -- in Eleusis and elsewhere, the sacred mysteries of Demeter and Persephone or -- above all, in the Peloponnesus and Attica, the mourning and rejoicing over the death and resurrection of Dionysus.

"Such representations were called dromena -- things performed. Drama is a kindred word and means, as it should, an action. At Sicyon tragic choruses, until the days of the dictator Cleisthenes, commemorated, we are told, the 'sufferings of Adrastus,' the ancient king. At Icaria, where Thespis grew up, a goat was sacrificed to Dionysus, perhaps the 'goat song' from which tragedy derived its name was a chant sung over the dismembered symbol or embodiment of the drunken god.

"The Greek drama, like ours, grew out of religious ritual."

Aside from the religious origins mentioned here, I am again "surprised" by the Greek influence in Sicily. Sicilians often emphasize that they are not Italian but it was not until I read these comments by Durant that I realized the Greek-Sicilian connection.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 26, 2003 - 07:11 am
Satyrs

Dionysos

Malryn (Mal)
February 26, 2003 - 07:24 am
Athenian Drinking Party
Mosaic Satyrs
Dionysos in chariot with two satyrs

Malryn (Mal)
February 26, 2003 - 07:36 am
Two strolling players with comedy masks, the Louvre, Paris

Greek Stagecraft

BaBi
February 26, 2003 - 08:06 am
I do indeed learn something new every day. I was unaware of the Sicilian "we're not Italian" stance, as everything I've read assumes they are. So they have some Greek origins. But how many centuries of Italian culture, history and cross-breeding does it take to become Italian, I wonder? ...Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2003 - 08:09 am
Very enlightening, Mal. Not much change over the 2,500 years except for the presence of the satyrs -- and who knows about that?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2003 - 08:28 am
Do you folks agree with the first paragraph in this LINK entitled "Tragedy and Comedy?"

Robby

moxiect
February 26, 2003 - 10:36 am


In Answer to your question Bobbi - Sicily is an island all to itself, it was annexed to the Italian mainland in 1941-I am not quite sure, but A Sicilian is a Sicilian of this I am certain and an Italian is from the mainland.

Shasta Sills
February 26, 2003 - 12:23 pm
Aristotle invented "catharsis" and "the tragic flaw"? Did the Greeks invent everything?!!

I loved that sketch of "Man Behaving Badly". By the time he gets through with that jug, he'll be behaving even worse.

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2003 - 12:45 pm
Shasta:--If you remember what it said, that man had ten steps to go through. Sounds like a "ten step program."

Robby

Justin
February 26, 2003 - 02:58 pm
Robby: Mary Page's jokes were a comment designed to show that lousy ethnic jokes were just as common in ancient Greece as they are today. They were not intended as slurs on any group, least of all the Scots. Mary Page is of Scotish ancestry. If we cannot examine the evils in life how can we hope to deal with them.

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2003 - 06:45 pm
"The earlier dramatists were called dancers because they made their plays chiefly a matter of choral dancing, and were actually teachers of dancing. Only one thing was needed to turn these choral representations into dramas, and that was the opposition of an actor, in dialogue and action, to the chorus.

"This inspiration came to one of these dancing instructors and chorus trainers, Thespis of Icaria -- a town close to the Peloponnesian Megara, where the rites of Dionysus were popular, and not far from Eleusis, where the ritual drama of Demeter, Persephone, and Dionysus Zagreus was annually performed.

Helped no doubt by the egoism that propels the world, Thespis separated himself from the chorus, gave himself individual recitative lines, developed the notion of opposition and conflict, and offered the drama in its stricter sense to history.

He played various roles with such verisimilitude that when his troupe performed at Athens, Solon was shocked at what seemed to him a kind of public deceit, and denounced this newfangled art as immoral -- a charge that it has heard in every century.

"Peisistratus was more imaginative, and encouraged the competitive performance of dramas at the Dionysian festival. In 534 Thespis won the victory in such a contest. The new form developed so rapidly that Choerilus, only a generation later, produced 160 plays.

"When fifty years after Thespis, Aeschylus and Athens returned victorious from the battle of Salamis, the stage was set for the great age in the history of the Greek drama."

Any comments as we leave Drama?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2003 - 04:46 am
We now move toward a very brief but VERY important section of Durant's book where he looks back at the Greece which existed before its historical actions leading to Democracy. He calls this small section

RETROSPECT

I am hopeful that not only the regular participants but lurkers (an important part of our family!) will share their thoughts regarding the following paragraphs.

"Looking back upon the multifarious civilization whose peaks have been sketched in the foregoing pages, we begin to understand what the Greeks were fighting for at Marathon.

"We picture the Aegean as a beehive of busy, quarrelsome, alert, inventive Greeks, establishing themselves obstinately in every port, developing their economy from tillage to industry and trade, and already creating great literature, philosophy, and art. It is amazing how quickly and widely this new culture matured, laying in the sixth century all the foundations for the achievements of the fifth. It was a civilization in certain respects finer than that of the Periclean period -- superior in epic and lyric poetry -- enlivened and adorned by the greater freedom and mental activity of women -- and in some ways better governed than in the later and more democratic age.

"But even of democracy the bases had been prepared. By the end of the century the dictatorships had taught Greece enough order to make possible Greek liberty.

"The realization of self-government was something new in the world. Life without kings had not yet been dared by any great society. Out of this proud sense of independence, individual and collective, came a powerful stimulus to every enterprise of the Greeks. It was their liberty that inspired them to incredible accomplishments in arts and letters, in science and philosophy.

"It is true that a large part of the people, then as always, harbored and loved superstitions, mysteries, and myths. Men must be consoled. Despite this, Greek life had become unprecedently secular. Politics, law, literature, and speculation had one by one been separated and liberated from ecclesiastical power. Philosophy had begun to build a naturalistic interpretation of the world and man, of body and soul. Science, almost unknown before, had made its first bold formulation. The elements of Euclid were established. Clarity and order and honesty of thought had become the ideal of a saving minority of men.

"A heroic effort of flesh and spirit rescued these achievments, and the promise they held, from the dead hand of alien despotism and the darkness of the Mysteries, and won for European civilization the trying privilege of freedom."

Moving from tillage to industry and trade. How quickly this new culture matured. Greater freedom and mental activity of women. There was enough order to make liberty possible. Proud sense of independence. Despite the love of myths, life had become secular. The beginning of a naturalistic interpretation of the world. A minority of men had as their ideals clarity, order, and honesty. Freedom is a privilege.

Your thoughts, if you will please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2003 - 08:08 am
An "idle" thought has entered my mind which I would like to share with everyone here. All thinking persons -- and this includes Senior Netters and most definitely participants in this forum -- are keeping up with the world news. It is impossible not to be a thinking person and not wonder what is about to happen in this world. We watch the TV, we listen to the radio, we read the newspapers.

And so while current events are taking place rapidly before our very eyes, we here in this discussion group are talking about people and events that existed 2,500 years ago. Is this irrelevant? Are we spinning our wheels -- using energy to absorb something that is "dead" while life is taking place outside our very door?

I submit to everyone here that while there may be active political discussion groups in Senior Net that are bouncing opinions back and forth, that we here in this group are better prepared to examine current events. We have learned how to step back for a better perspective. We have been reading about Greece preparing to become democratic and we are about to enter Greece's Golden Age when democracy blooms.

As the population "argues" about who is doing what on the political stage, are they not talking about democracy? The rights of the individual -- whether it be "us" or "them?" In my opinion it all boils down to this.

And so -- I for one -- am looking forward to what Durant calls the "Democratic Experiment." As best as I can see, our founders were well read on Ancient Greece and decided to try this experiment "again." Part of my brain will continue to keep up with current events. The other part will examine what the Greeks did (or did not do) that led to the success and failure of democracy.

YES. I consider this discussion group extremely relevant in our troubled times.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2003 - 08:11 am
"The Elements" by Euclid is a classical treatise on geometry, which was used as a textbook for 1000 years in western Europe. An Arabic version appeared at the end of the 8th century. The first printed came in 1482. There are 465 propositions, and this treatise contains 465 propositions, and is divided into 13 "books" or chapters.

MORE ABOUT EUCLID

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2003 - 08:30 am
"Il faut reculer pour mieux sauter." (One must draw back in order to leap better.)

- - - de Montaigne

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2003 - 08:41 am
Robby, what we're doing here is very, very relevant to what's going on today, and it's very, very important. Though we are really only able to skim over history that came years and years before our time, this discussion is a more in-depth look at civilization; what makes it, and the behavior of human beings from the beginning of time, than most people ever have.

My attitude about nearly everything has changed since I opened the first page of Our Oriental Heritage over a year ago and started talking about what was in it here in this discussion. Books I read, what I see on TV, hear on the radio, read in newspapers, the dynamics in my own family, all look different to me now.

What struck me, as I read and resisted what I was reading sometimes, was the repetitions throughout history we have seen. It was as if every culture and civilization had to start over from scratch and begin all over again, paying no attention to and ignoring the mistakes of the past. This is what is happening today -- we are ignoring the mistakes of centuries of people before us, mistakes we've refused to examine, admit and learn from.

Though the Ancient Greek civilization seems very sophisticated and developed, I think of Egypt, India, China and other oriental civilizations and realize that a large part of what was in Ancient Greece had already come before.

It seems important to me that the Greeks were not hampered by a restrictive religion and the power of priests that held back progress in the arts, mathematics and science. Ancient Greeks, such as Euclid mentioned above and Pythagoras before him, as well as the philosophers, opened their minds to all kinds of possibilities and ideas, some of which worked and some which did not. Democracy, and all it implies, was a unique idea that could not have come before, I believe, though we saw hints of it in other civilizations.

Democracy without laws and checks and balances can be a chaotic form of government. It is those checks and balances which concern me now. What people don't seem to be able to understand is that what happens to them today under a democracy is up to each individual united as a strong and powerful body with a single powerful voice.

It bothers me, too, that we people in a democratic society can be so gullible to a kind of "hard sell" as we watch all kinds of advertising, not just commercial but political and nationalistic, on the medium which influences us so much -- television.

History we probably won't be around to read will tell us of the influences of this time, to which we are too close to be able to see and comprehend.

There will perhaps come a time of enlightenment when people truly understand what is happening to them at the time it is happening. This is what is happening to me in this discussion of The Story of Civilization. Clouds are blowing away from my mind, and I am able to relate my time to what has happened over and over again before now.

Mal

Bubble
February 27, 2003 - 12:02 pm
There never was before that much power and influence through the media as there is now, and over so many countries too. News travel so fast, influence vaster territories. And still the same mistakes are being made and will probably cost that much more too.



People tend to renounced so easily democratic rights they gained over the years, when they believe they are in danger. They might have a bitter awakening.

BaBi
February 27, 2003 - 12:06 pm
Robby, I was particularly struck by the idea that order, imposed by dictatorships, was necessary before a people could learn democracy. I can see that rampant disorder, like anarchy, is antipathetic to any advancement in civilization. But I'm not sure people accustomed to dictatorships could learn, simply from having an orderly society, how to take on the responsibilities of democracy. I'm going to have to think some more about that one.

I am aware, as Malryn has pointed out, of the "hard sell". At the same time, I remember Anthony Eden's evasion of a confrontation, and it's result. By the time England faced the fact of Hitler's aggressive intentions, the man was at their back door instead of across Europe. What history teaches me, is that a man with a history of genocide, who makes deadly weapons obviously not intended to be de</>fensive, is not doing it as a hobby. He intends to use them. Burying our heads in the sand is madness. Waving 'peace' banners is not going to make it come true. I don't like it any better than anyone else...but there it is. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2003 - 12:27 pm
History has proven that preparation for war is not the way to prepare for peace. My own country has a great arsenal of weapons capable of annihilating the world. An Asian country in the Pacific also has a powerful arsenal. Where does that put us? Read Ancient History and see.

Put me down as saying on the day gentle peacemaker, Mr. Fred Rogers, died that I am in his camp and that of Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela and Martin Luther King.

Mal

Justin
February 27, 2003 - 01:23 pm
Mal; Your criticism of us is justified. "We are ignoring the mistakes of centuries of people before us, mistakes we've refused to examine, admit and learn from". Even here in this forum, we reject those who expose us to the evils of the past. We go beyond that and censor, no expunge, the evil when it is shown to us. We cannot hope to learn if we can not examine things we do not approve.

Malryn (Mal)
February 27, 2003 - 04:07 pm

I've hesitated a long time before posting this, which I think has been posted here before by someone else. There are millions of people worldwide right now who would agree with this statement made by a loyal American.
"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Walt Kelly

Justin
February 27, 2003 - 11:08 pm
Babi: I thought Neville Chamberlain was the chap who failed to see the danger in Hitler. Eden was Dean Acheson's counterpart in the early fifties. You, of course, may have a better handle on this than I do. My memory often fails me these days.

tooki
February 28, 2003 - 06:49 am
Because the basic prototype of conscious human behavior is not very old in comparison to primate evolution, it's not too strange that lessons haven't been learned and must be repeated. Maybe it's like memorizing the multiplication tables.

One famous metaphor about human history that is frequently quoted goes something like: if we imagine the entire biological evolution of life on earth as contained within one year, with the first signs of life appearing on January 1, the earliest prehominid species would appear at about 5:30 PM, on a late afternoon of December 31st. Neanderthal man would show up at about twenty minutes to midnight. And the entire existence of Homo sapiens, from the Stone Age to our own time, would be contained in the last few minutes of the year.

That idea puts things into perspective for me.

tooki
February 28, 2003 - 06:55 am
Pogo said that, floundering around in the premordial swamp. I think Pogo was the first fully conscious humanoid. And he said, as his first conscious utterance, "Who are all these others? They are the enemy."

tooki
February 28, 2003 - 08:39 am
An interesting entry to the whole problem of what is the problem?

Who Is The Enemy?

Malryn (Mal)
February 28, 2003 - 08:48 am
Greek Amphora

Sarpedon vase

Greek art at the Delphi Museum, click images for larger picture

Malryn (Mal)
February 28, 2003 - 09:09 am
Sites of Ancient Greece, including Marathon

BaBi
February 28, 2003 - 01:46 pm
Doesn't every new generation have to learn for itself? I carefully warned my children, for example, that stoves are hot, but at least one of them had to experiment for himself. Passing on information is, unfortunately, not quite the same thing as passing on knowledge. ...Babi

BaBi
February 28, 2003 - 01:52 pm
Justin, you are quite right. I did get Eden and Chamberlain confused. It was Chamberlain who was crediting himself with winning "peace in our time". Eden was the foreign minister who resigned over Chamberlain's opening 'discussions' with Mussolini. It's my memory that is slipping here. Thanks for the correction. ...Babi

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2003 - 06:01 pm
Durant tells us about Marathon:--

"In the reigns of Darius, Xerxes, and Artaxerxes, says Herodotus, Greece suffered more sorrows than in twenty generations before. The Greek nation had to pay the penalty of its development. Spreading everywhere, it was bound sooner or later to come into conflict with a major power. Using water as their highway, the Hellenes had opened up a trade route that extended from the eastern coast of Spain to the farthest ports of the Black Sea.

"This European water route -- Greco-Italian-Sicilian -- competed more and more with the Oriental land and water route -- Indo-Perso-Phoenician. Thereby arose a lasting and bitter rivalry in which war, by all human precedents, was inevitable, and in which the battles of Lade, Marathon, Plataea, Himera, Mycale, the Eurymedon, the Granicus, Issus, Arbela, Cannae, and Zama were merely incidents.

"The European system won against the Oriental partly because transport by water is cheaper than transport by land, and partly because it is almost a law of history that the rugged, warlike north conquers the easygoing, art-creating south."

WOW! What Durant is telling us here in just a few words. Development requires a penalty. When there is a lasting and bitter trade rivalry, war is inevitable. A law of history says that the north usually conquers the south. Comments?

Robby

Justin
February 28, 2003 - 06:35 pm
I don't know about this North and South business. Persia is in the same latitude as Greece- mainland, Asian and Western. The Greeks out fought the Persians in almost every engagement. When the Greeks lost it was because they were betrayed by malefactors. The interesting part is that the Greeks were outnumbered by 100 to 1 and in some cases even heavier odds. The Greeks were so small and insignificant in the world that the Persian emperor had never heard of them. "Greeks? Who are they?. He learned the hard way.

tooki
February 28, 2003 - 07:59 pm
I take umbrage at "almost a law of history that the rugged, warlike north conquers the easygoing, art-creating south."

North and south of what? It sounds vaguely racist to me. And is transport by water realy cheaper than transport by land? Well, except for Americans who need much gas for their cars.

I think it more likely that the Greeks were strutting their stuff, intruding upon bigger powers, and annoying the whole Mediterrerean world.

Justin
February 28, 2003 - 08:23 pm
Yes, water transport is far less expensive than land transport.Even today, the Greeks understand that, par example; Onassis etc.

I think you are right about the Greeks annoying the big fellows. The Persians were not interested in the Med. They had their little camel caravans to supply them with goodies from all over Asia.(much of which they owned.) The Greeks were little unknown gnats in the life of a Persian Satrap. But when the Persians began to feel the pinch of economic pressure, war was inevitable. They thought they were stepping on a bug but the bug bit them where it hurt-in the army.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 05:10 am
Tooki:--Got any examples where the "south" conquered the "north?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 05:17 am
"In the year 512 Darius I of Persia crossed the Bosporus, invaded Scythia, and, marching westward, conquered Thrace and Macedon. When he returned to his capitals he had enlarged his realm to embrace Persia, Afgnanistan, northern India, Turkestan, Mesopotamia, northern Arabia, Egypt, Cyprus, Palestine, Syria, Asia Minor, the eastern Aegean, Thrace, and Macedonia. The greatest empire that the world had yet seen had overextended itself to include and awaken its future conqueror.

"Only one important nation remained outside this vast system of government and trade, and that was Greece. By 510 Darius had hardly heard of it outside Ionia. 'The Athenians,' he asked -- 'who are they?'

"Abouat 506 the dictator Hippias, deposed by revolution at Athens, fled to the Persian satrap at Sardis, begged for help in regaining his power, and offered, in that event, to hold Attica under the Persian dominion."

What an empire! Just look at the list of conquered nations above. If today all that land was under the rule of one person, would we be worried?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 05:43 am
Here is a MAP showing the extent of the Persian Empire in Asia Minor. Then look at the Mediterranean toward the West and imagine the feelings of the Greeks.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 07:24 am
"In 500 there was a timely provocation. The Greek cities of Asia Minor, under Persian rule for half a century, suddenly dismissed their satraps and declared their independence. Aristagoras of Miletus went to Sparta to enlist its aid, without success. He passed on to Athens, mother city of many Ionian towns, and pleaded so well that the Athenians sent a fleet of twenty ships to support the revolt.

"Meanwhile the Ionians were acting with a chaotic vigor characteristic of the Greeks. Each rebel city raised its own troops, but kept them under separate command. The Milesian army, led with more bravery than wisdom, marched upon Sardis and burned the great city to the ground.

"The Ionian Confederacy organized a united fleet, but the Samian contingent secretly made terms with the Persian satrap, and when, in 494, the Persian navy met the Ionian at Lade, in one of the major sea battles of history, the half hundred ships of the Samians sailed away without fighting, and many other contingents followed their example.

"The defeat of the Ionians was complete, and Ionian civilization never quite recovered from this physical and spiritual disaster. The Persians laid siege to Miletus, captured it, killed the males, enslaved the women and children, and so completely plundered the city that Miletus became from that day a minor town. Persian rule was re-established throughout Ionia, and Darius, resentful of Athenian interference, resolved to conquer Greece.

"Little Athens, as the result of her generous assistance to her daughter cities, found herself face to face with an empire literally a hundred times greater than Attica."

Robby

tooki
March 1, 2003 - 11:28 am
This isn't the proper time to bring this issue up, what with the freedom wars, but this factoid is burning a hole in my brain.

The current issue of "Art News," (received yesterday) said this in a review of a book about blondes:

". . . the cult of blonde beauty goes back to the Greek goddess of love and fertility, Aphrodite, whose hair was said to be the color of gold."

"In antiquity, prositutes used pigeon dung to lighten their hair."

Does anyone have a clue about pigeon dung? Did I miss something in the book about Aphrodite and her hair of gold?

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 01:46 pm
This thought is not original with me -- I have heard other state it -- but I am coming to the conclusion that throughout the forward movement of mankind, peace is an occasional interlude between wars, not the opposite. That the story of "progress" is warfare. That "forward movement" means the winnning of one group or individual over another.

Greece is now about to enter another period of war.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 1, 2003 - 03:49 pm
And so are we.

I find the idea that war is necessary to achieve "progress" a very discouraging and depressing one. If that is true, first there must come a period of darkness and no progress at all, according to what I read in history. There also can be the possible end of certain civilizations.

How dark the future seems right now. I wonder how many people in Ancient Greece said exactly the same thing on the eves of their periods of war?

Mal

tooki
March 1, 2003 - 04:26 pm
I think there are, and have been, many different reasons given by the people involved for going to war throughout history. But, I wonder that people going to war said, or say, "We need to do this to make progress, to move forward." If forward movement implies progress then I need to know progress toward what? Am I not understanding your points?

It seems to me that war is usually caused by squabling over resources: who owns what, has the right to what, and who has been wronged by someone ursurping their resources.

There are also wars fought for principles, freedom, and moral causes. These, I think, are in the minority.

Justin
March 1, 2003 - 04:27 pm
War has many causes. One that stands out is "resistance to suppression". Man is unable to live peacefully under the thumb of others. The Ionian cities are a good example. They resisted and were punished, severely. There was no progress in Miletus. Progress comes only when the suppressed wins their independence. When the suppressed lose, the status quo is maintained.

The suppressor should be removed from office rather than kill innocent people to continue suppression or to relieve suppression. Today, that's the job of the UN but the council seems unable to stand up to it's responsibilities. Unfortunately, countries like France choose appeasement rather than a workable posture. France and Britain tried that once before and paid a severe penalty. Britain learned it's lesson. France has not yet learned that appeasement fails to bring peace.

Shasta Sills
March 1, 2003 - 04:46 pm
Did anyone see the Poets Conference today on Book TV? They were originally scheduled to meet at the White House, and this was cancelled due to their opposition to the war. All the speakers blamed this on Laura Bush and made a lot of critical remarks about her. I thought this was very unfair. She probably had nothing to do with the decision to cancel. She's caught in a predicament that she didn't create. She can't go against the President's policies. I thought they were being childish in criticizing her like that.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 05:13 pm
"In the year 491 a Persian fleet of six hundred ships under Datis struck across the Aegean from Samos, stopped on the way to subdue the Cyclades, and reached the coast of Euboea with 200,000 men. Euboea submitted after a brief struggle, and the Persians crossed the bay to Attica. They pitched their camp near Marathon, because Hippias had advised them that in that plain they could use their cavalry, in which they were overwhelmingly superior to the Greeks.

"All Greece was in turmoil at the news.

"The Persian arms had never yet been defeated. The advance of the Empire had never yet been stopped. How could a nation so weak, so scattered, so unused to unity, hold back this wave of Oriental conquest? The northern Greek states were loath to resist so monstrous a power. Sparta hesitatingly prepared, but allowed superstitution to delay its mobilization. Little Plataea acted quickly, and sent a large porportion of its citizens by forced marches to Marathon.

"At Athens Miltiades freed and enlisted slaves as well as freemen, and led them over the mountains to the battle field. When the rival armies met, the Greeks had some twenty thousand men. The Persians probably one hundred thousand.

"The Persians were brave, but they were accustomed to individual fighting, and were not trained for the mass defense and attack of the Greeks. The Greeks united discipline with courage, and though they committed the folly of dividing the command among ten generals, each supreme for a day, they were saved by the example of Aristides, who yielded his leadership to Miltiades. Under this blunt soldier's vigorous strategy the small Greek force routed the Persian horde in what was not only one of the decisive battles, but also one of the most incredible victories, of history.

"If we may accept Greek testimony on such a matter, 6,400 Persians, but only 192 Greeks, fell at Marathon. After the battle was over the Spartans arrived, mourned their tardiness, and praised the victors."

One of the most incredible victories of history? The Greeks were scattered and weak, yet under top leadership presented a mass defense and attack? One general yielding his position to another?

There must be a lesson here somewhere.

Robby

Shasta Sills
March 1, 2003 - 05:33 pm
Sparta was the last one to react? I don't understand that. All Sparta lived for was warfare. I would have expected them to lead the attack.

Justin
March 1, 2003 - 05:46 pm
Yes, there is a lesson and the fruits of it lasted till the Germans defeated the Romans somewhere in the 5th century CE. That lesson is that without firepower one can win with solidarity in the ranks. The squared Roman cohorts were an outgrowth of the Greek formations at Marathon.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 06:04 pm
Shasta:--I was wondering too about Sparta not leading the attack but, if you recall, Durant told us that "Sparta allowed superstition to delay its mobiliation." I assume that meant that some kind of "hocus-pocus" had to take place before they could leave for the battle.

Justin:--Would you please expand that thought on "solidarity in the ranks?" Are you talking about being physically close to each other? Or emotional solidarity?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 06:11 pm
You folks won't want to miss this. Here is some EXCELLENT INFORMATION AND ILLUSTRATIONS AND MAPS about the battle at Marathon.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 06:19 pm
Here is a quote from the Link you just saw. Just think about that. If the Greeks had not put up the "good fight," you and I might now be speaking Arabic.

"The Battle of Marathon is perhaps the single most important battle in Greek history. Had the Athenians lost, Greece would have eventually come under the control of the Persians and all the subsequent culture and accomplishments of the Greeks would probably not have taken the form they did."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2003 - 07:01 pm
The ORIGIN of the Marathon Race.

Robby

Justin
March 1, 2003 - 08:43 pm
"Solidarity in the ranks" refers to the phalanx method of fighting. The men stand shoulder to shoulder.They present a solid wall of shields and bristling spears. The shields protect against arrow attack from the air and against spear attack from the outside. As I understand it the Greeks were able to maintain formation while running or standing as at Thermopylae.

Justin
March 1, 2003 - 08:49 pm
It is hard to over estimate the importance of battles like Marathon and Salamis. Our oriental heritage would certainly be much stronger in our culture than it is today, had the Persians won at Marathon. I think the work of Alexander at Issus finally capped the Persian interest in Europe.

Justin
March 1, 2003 - 09:05 pm
One must admire the generalship of Miltiades. His decision to present a weak middle and reinforced flanks against a vastly superior force was an act of genius. We don't often see battle plans that work as well in actual combat. I think Mac Arthur's Inchon landings were of similar quality. The work of pure genius.

tooki
March 1, 2003 - 09:50 pm
Isn't the tactic used in the Battle of Martheon called a "pincher" movement? I was under the impression that it is a classic battle tactic used by all sorts of battle leaders since Martheon.

Interestingly, I think it apparently was a tactic used by the Plains Indians when they suckered the military troops into canyons, and then closed in on them. Unfortunately, I have no exact references. Any battle buffs here?

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2003 - 05:14 am
"The strange mixture of nobility and cruelty, idealism and cynicism, in Greek character and history was illustrated by the subsequent careers of Miltiades and Aristides. Inflated by the praise of all Greece, Miltiades asked the Athenians to equip a fleet of seventy ships, to be under his unchecked command. When the ships were ready, Miltiades led them to Paros, and demanded of its citizens one hundred talents ($600,000) on pain of wholesale death.

"The Athenians recalled him and fined him fifty talents. Miltiades died soon after and the fine was paid by his son Cimon, the future rival of Pericles.

"The man who had yielded place to him at Marathon survived the pitfalls of success. Aristides was in life and manners a Spartan at Athens. His quiet staid character, his modest simplicity and undiscourageable honesty won him the title of the Just. When in a drama of Aeschylus' the passage occurred --

For not at seeming just, but being so,
He aims; and from his depth of soil below
Harvests of wise and prudent counsels grow --

all the audience turned to look at Aristides, as the living embodiment of the poet's lines.

"When the Greeks captured the camp of the Persians at Marathon, and found great wealth in their tents, Aristides was left in charge of it and 'neither took anything for himself, nor suffered others to do it.' When after the war, the allies of Athens were induced to contribute annually to the treasury of Delos as a fund for common defense, Aristides was chosen by them to fix their payments, and none protested his decisions.

"Nevertheless, he was more admired than popular. Though a close friend of Cleisthenes, who had so extended democracy, he was of the opinion that democracy had gone far enough, and that any further empowerment of the Assembly would lead to administrative corruption and public disorder.

"He exposed malfeasance wherever he found it, and made many enemies. The democratic party, led by Themistocles, used Cleisthenes' recently established device of ostracism to get rid of him, and in 482 the only man in Athenian history that was at once famous and honest was exiled at the height of his career.

"All the world knows -- though again it may be only a fable -- how Aristides inscribed his own name on the ostracon for a letterless citizen who did not know him but who, with the resentment of mediocrity for excellence, was tired of hearing him called the Just.

"When Aristides learned of the decision he expressed the hope that Athens would never have occasion to remember him."

Two wonderful stories of character and personality -- and perhaps a lesson here as well.

Robby

tooki
March 2, 2003 - 07:39 am
Some great information on the Greek soldiers.

The Hoplites

Shasta Sills
March 2, 2003 - 10:52 am
So that's why the Spartans weren't ready to fight. They were waiting for a full moon. I always despised the Spartans. In high school history, we read that the Spartan mothers said to their sons: "Come home with your shield or on it!" What kind of mother would say such a thing to her son? Isn't it funny that I remember that after all these years? It shows how much I hate war.

Those Greeks really were loaded down with armor, weren't they? It must have been hard to move. Like two-legged tanks rattling along.

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2003 - 06:44 pm
Shasta:--Isn't it wonderful that in our advanced civilization, the full moon no longer has any effect on anyone?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2003 - 07:05 pm
I find it interesting that the Greeks won by fighting in a tight line shoulder to shoulder but the British Red Coats lost at Concord by also fighting shoulder to shoulder.

Robby

3kings
March 2, 2003 - 07:46 pm
I don't think the SPARTANS waited for a full moon for astrological reasons, as seems to be suggested. It was more likely to be the very practical reason that moving an armed force could be done only in daylight, or under a full moon.We must remember we are talking about movement over very rough and probably trackless country.-- Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2003 - 07:49 pm
Trevor:--It was Durant who said "Sparta allowed superstition to delay its mobilization" but you may have a point.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 2, 2003 - 08:18 pm
The Battle of Marathon, 490 BC

Justin
March 2, 2003 - 08:40 pm
The British stood shoulder to shoulder at Lexington and Concord and lost because the Americans had fire power. The Greeks did not face rifles, they faced spears and arrows.

Bubble
March 3, 2003 - 04:11 am
Robby, here the rumor is that full moon is advisable and also waited for in the next gulf war... If I remember right it was more than useful in the first one. Targets are better identified with some lights and the moon shines very bright in desertic countries.

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2003 - 04:38 am
"The historian is constrained to admit that the public men of Athens were properly equipped with the unscrupulousness that sometimes enters into statesmanship. As much as Alcibiades at a later age, Themistocles was a very flame of ability. 'He has a claim on our admiration quite extraordinary and unparalleled,' says the always moderate Thucydides.

"Like Miltiades, he saved Athens, but could not save himself. He could defeat a great empire, but not his own lust for power. 'He received relunctantly and carelessly,' says Plutarch, 'instructions given him to improve his manners and behavior, or to teach him any pleasing or graceful accomplishment. But whatever was said to improve him in sagacity, or in the management of affairs, he would give attention to beyond his years, confident in his natural capacity for such things.'

"It was Athens' misforune that both Themistocles and Aristides fell in love with the same girl, Stesilaus of Ceos, and that their animosity outlived the beauty that had aroused it. Nevertheless it was Themistocles whose foresight and energy prepared for, and carried through, the victory of Salamis -- the most crucial battle in Greek history. As far as back as 493 he had planned and begun a new harbor for Athens at the Piraeus. Now, in 482, he persuaded the Athenians to forego a distribution of money due them from the proceeds of the silver mines at Laurium, and to devote the sum to the building of a hundred triremes.

"Without this fleet there could have been no resistance to Xerxes."

Themistocles -- lacking in manners and grace and almost felled by his love of a woman, but with sufficient wisdom to help prepare Athens for a coming victory.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2003 - 07:33 am
"Darius I died in 485 and was succeeded by Xerxes I. Both father and won were men of ability and culture, and it would be an error to think of the Greco-Persian War as a contest between civilization and barbarism.

"When Darius, before invading Greece, sent heralds to Athens and Sparta to demand earth and water as symbols of submission, both cities had put the heralds to death. Troubled by portents, Sparta now repented of this violation of international custom, and asked for two citizens to go to Persia and surrender themselves to any punishment that the Great King might exact in retribution. Sperthias and Bulis, both of old and wealthy families, volunteered, made their way to Xerxes, and offered to die in atonement for the killing of Darius' messengers.

"Xerxes, says Herodotus, 'answered with true greatness of soul that he would not act like the Lacedaemonians, who, by killing the heralds, had broken the laws which all men held in common. As he had blamed such conduct in them, he would never be guilty of it himself."

Robby

tooki
March 3, 2003 - 08:43 am
I wonder what the Athenian Navy looked like in full regalia, sailing across the Med. Must have been, as they say, awesome.

Here is a "trireme." A Trireme

I was sternly told never to call a ship a boat. The difference has forevermore puzzled me.

BaBi
March 3, 2003 - 11:13 am
The British continued to use the "square" in the 19th century. In reading "Killer Angels", on the battle of Gettysburg, an English observer was perturbed and disappointed that the American armies did not use it. Changes in weaponry required changes in battle tactics, but it seems always difficult to give up the ways that one once used successfully.

I was impressed by Aristides farewell remark, the hope that Athens would not have cause to remember him. So much subtlety in that simple remark. ...Babi

Justin
March 3, 2003 - 01:51 pm
In US Navy nomenclature a ship is a vessel that may carry boats but a boat cannot carry a ship. On a ship one distinguishes between small boats or lifeboats and the carrying vessel- the ship. In this context, ships may become boats when carried by larger ships. In more common parlance a ship is simply a boat that is capable of carrying other boats. If the vessel is small, say "boat". If the vessel is large and capable of carrying boats say "ship" to distinguish between boats and ship. Good luck with all that...

Malryn (Mal)
March 3, 2003 - 04:55 pm
I spent some time today doing searches about battle strategy of the Ancient Greeks and had to stop because I am so depressed about the threat of war today. I have nothing to offer to this discussion right now except sadness about the fact that civilization has not evolved farther than it has.

Mal

tooki
March 3, 2003 - 09:34 pm
Reading about these Persian Wars does drain one. Here is a site that should suffice until we arrive at The Golden Age.

The Endless Warring

How about that old saw: He who knows no history is doomed to repeat it.

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2003 - 04:53 am
Tooki:--You are so correct. Durant explained this era to us because he wanted us to understand the struggles that were necessary to move to the Golden Age. Democracy does not come to our lives easily. We are almost there. Let us examine one more struggle which, as I understand it, it important for us to know. I will give just some excerpts - -

"Xerxes prepared leisurely but thoroughly for the second Persian attack upon Greece. For four years he collected troops and materials from all the provinces of his realm. When, in 481, he at last set forth, his army was probably the largest ever assembled in history before our own century.

"In the Spring of 480 the great host reached the Hellespont, where Egyptiam and Phoenician engineers had built a bridge that was among the most admired mechanical achievements of antiquity. 674 ships of trireme or penteconter size were distributed in two rows athwart the strait, each facing the current, and moored with a heavy anchor. Then the builders stretched cables of flax or papyrus over each row of ships from bank to bank, bound the cables to every ship, and made them taut with capstans on the shore. In seven days and nights the entire host had passed over it successfully. The army marched overland through Thrace and down into Macedonia and Thessaly while the Persian fleet, hugging the coasts, avoided the storms of the Aegean.

"How can we imagine, today, the terror and desperation of the southern Greeks at the approach of this polyglot avalanche? Resistance seemed insane. The loyal states could not muster one tenth of Xerxes' force."

A small culture trying to practice Democracy facing an immense dictatorship.

Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2003 - 05:35 am
"For once Athens and Sparta worked together with single mind and heart. Delegates were sped to every city in the Peloponnesus to beg for troops or supplies. Most of the states co-operated. Argos refused, and never lived down her disgrace. Athens fitted out a fleet that sailed north to meet the Persian armada. Sparta dispatched a small force under King Leonidas to halt Xerxes at Thermopylae.

"All day the rival fleets fought, until night put an end to the engagement before either side could win. The Greeks retired to Artemisium, the Persians to Aphetae. Considering the inequality of numbers, the Greeks justifiably looked upon the battle as a victory.

"Leonidas, despite the most heroic aresistance in history, was overwhelmed at the 'Hot Gates,' not so much by the bravery of the Persians as by the treachery of Hellenes. Certain Greeks from Trachis not only betrayed to Xerxes the secret of the indirect route over the mountains, but led the Persian force by that approach to attack the Spartans in the rear. Leonidas and his three hundred elders died almost to the last man. Of the two Spartan survivors one fell at Plataea, the other hanged himself for shame."

Any thoughts here of how the move to Democracy was almost stopped by the act of traitors?"

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 4, 2003 - 06:25 am
Here's something that interested me.

Lysistrata as a weapon for peace

Malryn (Mal)
March 4, 2003 - 10:13 am
A psychologist I respected once told me that people are motivated by love or money. I wonder how much those traitors expected to be paid?

Mal

Justin
March 4, 2003 - 12:04 pm
Aristophane's Lysistrada is a wonderful play about a rebellion by the women of Greece who, unhappy that their men are off to war for extended periods, decide to end the war by witholding sex from their lovers and husbands when they return home for brief respites. It is a very funny play with plenty of opportunity for slap stick. The general's wife is luscious and the ladies encourage her to tease her husband but refuse him release. Of course, the war is called off.

I first saw it just after WW2, in an art museum in San Franciso. It was early in 1946 and the play could not be produced anywhere else.It was raunchy and you, all of you, must remember how concerned we were about acknowledging the existance of sex at that time. Remember the Hays office and the fuss over Howard Hughes' Cowboy movie and Jane's (?) breasts.

Mal; maybe we can get Laura to declare a strike against that fellow who lives in the neo classical style house.

Hun
March 4, 2003 - 12:27 pm
As the daughter of Zeus, Aphrodite had the chameleon-like luxury to be anything from a black-haired Cyprian (Homer)to a "foam born" blonde (Uranus). She did not have to rely on cheap tricks like doing her hair with "pigeon dung".

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2003 - 06:18 pm
"The Persian fleet, twelve hundred strong, entered the Bay of Salamis. Against it were ranged three hundred Greek triremes. The majority of the admirals were opposed to risking an engagement.

"Resolved to force action upon the Greeks, Themistocles resorted to a stratagem that would have cost him his life had the Persians won. He sent a trusted slave to Xerxes to tell him that the Greeks were intending to sail away during the night, and that the Persians could prevent this only by surrounding the Greek fleet. Xerxes accepted the advice.

"With every escape blocked, the Greeks were compelled to give fight. The superior tactics and seamanship of the Hellenes, and the confusion of tongues, minds, and superfluous ships among the Orientals, finally decided the issue in favor of Greece. Few of the Greeks died, for being all excellent swimmers, they swam to land when their boats foundered. The remnant of the Persian fleet fled to the Hellespont.

"A year later (August, 470) the liberation of Greece was completed by almost simultaneous engagements on land and sea. The non-Persians in the invadiang force had no heart for the conflict and took to flight. The Greeks won so overwhelming a victory that they lost but 159 men, while of the Persian force 160,000 were slain. The Persian fleet was destroyed, the Ionian cities were freed from Persian rule, and control of the Hellespont and the Bosporus was won by the Greeks as they had won it from Troy seven hundred years before."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2003 - 06:30 pm
CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING

I have divided Durant's most important final paragraph in this section into separate items.

1 - "The Greco-Persian War was the most momentous conflict in European history, for it made Europe possible.
2 - "It won for Western civilization the opportunity to develop its own economic life and its own political institutions, free from the dictation of Oriental kings.
3 - "It won for Greece a clear road for the first great experiment in liberty.
4 - "It preserved the Greek mind for three centuries from the enervating mysticism of the East, and secured for Greek enterprise full freedom of the sea.
5 - "The Athenian fleet that remained after Salamis now opened every port in the Mediterranean to Greek trade.
6 - "The commercial expansion that ensued provided the wealth that financed the leisure and culture of Periclean Athens.
7 - "The victory of little Hellas against such odds stimulated the pride and lifted up the spirit of its people.
8 - "Out of very gratitude they felt called upon to do unprecedented things.

After centuries of preparation and sacrifice Greece entered upon its Golden Age.

Justin
March 4, 2003 - 06:44 pm
Robby: Earlier you asked,"when did Greece become more European and less oriental? When was the turning point? I offered the period at the end of Alexander's reign. I think that is not correct. The direction may have been strengthened at that time but clearly the turning point is much earlier. The year 470 BCE is a better moment for the change in direction. After the defeat of the Persians even Ionia has a chance to develop it's own ideas of government, and culture without eastern influence. Don't you think 470 is a better choice of turning point?

tooki
March 4, 2003 - 08:55 pm
I agree with Durant. The Persian Wars acted as a creative catalyst to the Golden Age. It could not have happened without those endless wars.

It must have been terrifying when the Persians - an arrogant bully of an Empire - attacked the Greeks. It must have taken firm resolve, determination and a great amount of courage for the Greeks to stand and defend their way of life.

We should be thankful for their bravery because their way of life happened to include the first formalization of the concept of democracy.

They survived, actually beating the Persians! Their joy must have known no bounds. The flush of victory must have turned all of Greece into Homer's "rosy fingered dawn." The overwhelming relief at the wars' ends, the joys of freedom, and the easing of the burdens of war caused a great feeling of exhilaration. Carried over into "The Golden Age" a torrent of creatively was released. Wow!

tooki
March 4, 2003 - 09:05 pm
My previous post was perhaps a bit overwrought. On a more prosaic note, what swimming stroke did the Greeks use when swimming to land from their floundered boats? The Australian crawl?

Justin
March 4, 2003 - 10:48 pm
Doggie Paddle.

3kings
March 5, 2003 - 12:22 am
The Greeks lost 159 men, while the Persians lost 160,000? WOW, 1000 to 1. Don't those numbers seem a little exaggerated to you?

JUSTIN, you remark that Lysistrata had to be shown only in small venues, as it was so raunchy, it upset the American citizens.... That seems strange to me, as American servicemen were here during the WW2, and the complaint from the local folk was that Americans were Overpaid, Over Sexed, and Over Here. In short, they behaved like soldiers every where, once they were in a foreign land.-- Trevor

Justin
March 5, 2003 - 01:09 am
Yes, Trevor. I was one of them. I was with the Marine Second Division, after Guadalcanal, many of us came from Samoa and were stationed out side Wellington. New Zealand was a staging area for the battle for Tarawa. I for one enjoyed Wellington enormously. I was probably over paid ($54. per month by act of congress), and over sexed ( what else is a male at 19?). We were there in October and November 1943. I remember that it was quite cool and damp. I did particularly like the old English appearance of Wellington and it's quaint shops. I suppose, all that is gone now.

You must realize, that the American public and American servicemen did not have the same values. The American public was quite interested in something they called morals and that silly view lasted until the 1960's I think. So hypocritical, it was. The pill gave us a new dimension in life.

Bubble
March 5, 2003 - 01:38 am
"The overwhelming relief at the wars' ends, the joys of freedom, and the easing of the burdens of war caused a great feeling of exhilaration ... a torrent of creatively was released."



Tooki, That describes so perfectly what was felt here after the Six Days War. On a smaller scare of course, but we felt on the verge of annihilation with all those powerful neighbors waging war against this small one country. Creativity followed in grand scale in writing, films, songs, rehabilitation programs even.

The same relief and joy happened after the Kippur War of course, as it was such a surprise-attack. The price there was more costly and the elation lasted less at the end.

I just compare here what this reading generated from my own memories. Bubble

Bubble
March 5, 2003 - 02:24 am
Justin, read this sunday book review in NY Times. Jarhead By Anthony Swofford



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/books/review/002BOWDET.html?pagewanted=1&8bu

It seems to have come as an answer to our talk here.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2003 - 04:32 am
Regarding Justin's comment about the difference in values between the American serviceman and the American public -- I was an Infantry First Sergeant (the notorious Topkick) who kept the GIs in his company in line. I served in the 29th Division in the European Theater of Operations.

Prior to entering the service, obscene language was not part of my vocabulary. It was not a case of puritanism. My family (both male and female) just never felt the need of it to express their feelings. Shortly after my enlistment and definitely after promotion to First Sergeant, I found myself using language which would not only have shocked my family but, if used here, would not only cause a deletion by our illustrious Direction of Education but probably would have removed me permanently from Senior Net.

For most of the time I was in charge of the infantry company, four-letter words became a natural part of my vocabulary. I used them "without thinking." Immediately upon my discharge (and I mean IMMEDIATELY), those words disappeared from my language. I was now a civilian and back to being a member of my family. I did not have to consciously refrain from using them. I used proper language "without thinking" and to this day find no need to use them to express my feelings.

I am pleased to add, however, that the strength of the testosterone remained.

The article entitled "Jarhead" to which Bubble gave us a link tells it very well.

Robby

Bubble
March 5, 2003 - 04:41 am
Life would be booooooooring for ALL without that hormone staying active! Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
March 5, 2003 - 08:36 am
Below is a link to the text of Lysistrata by Aristophanes. R rated, so be prepared.

LYSISTRATA

tooki
March 5, 2003 - 10:09 am
Less I be left behind in this testosterone tossed conversation, let it be known that my interesting behavior during WWII ceased immediately when Peace arrived. Too bad I didn't know you boys then!

Justin
March 5, 2003 - 02:04 pm
Yes, indeed, Tooki.

Justin
March 5, 2003 - 03:12 pm
Bubble: Thank you for the Jarhead article. It's nice to know that some things never change.

"Jarhead", is an interesting term. The primary meaning is a US Marine but over time it has been used to refer to Army mules. The term is applied because the barracks cap looks like a jar top. That's the best I can do using civilian language for head covers.

Bubble
March 5, 2003 - 03:17 pm
Thanks Justin for the etymology of the word. My interpretation was that the marines had head as hard and expressionless as jars. I was off the mark. Bubble

Malryn (Mal)
March 5, 2003 - 04:12 pm
Yes, BUBBLE, thanks for the link. I'd like to read that book. Thanks, Justin, for the explanation, too. That's something I didn't know.

TOOKI, I was barely 16 when the war ended; had met a lot of sailors, including one who wanted me to leave school, get married and move from Massachusetts to far, far away West Virginia. That wasn't the only wartime marriage proposal I received. I don't know why these young guys all thought at that "La donna e nubile" age I was the domestic type. Your 40's career surely must have been more interesting than mine.

Mal

Shasta Sills
March 5, 2003 - 04:59 pm
Justin, why is it nice to know that war never changes? It's just what we're hoping WILL change. Mal, you can see when you read that article about men at war why civilization has not made the progress you hoped for. It's fighting an uphill battle against the aggressive instincts of the human animal. You can see that young men love war.

I thought when they invented the nuclear bomb that nobody would ever dare to start another war because they could blow up the whole planet. Instead, they just all agreed to fight with their lesser weapons, and wars go right on.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2003 - 05:09 pm
AND NOW! The period in Greek history for which Durant has been preparing us -- the period which includes all those names familiar to both scholars and non-scholars -- Pericles -- Hippocrates -- Socrates -- Sophocles -- Aristophanes. How interesting (to me at least) that this pivotal age lasted only approximately 80 years -- the length of just one generation. Let us open this period of history!

The Golden Age

480-399 B.C.

Malryn (Mal)
March 5, 2003 - 05:14 pm
Shasta, I think it's old men who love war, not young ones.

I don't need that article to tell me what I found out when I read the first volume of this huge study: Our Oriental Heritage. Sure is nice to know there's a Golden Age once in a while interspersed with the destructive bad habits of war.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2003 - 05:19 pm
Pericles and the Democratic Experiment


"'The period which intervened between the birth of Pericles and the death of Aristotle,' wrote Shelley, 'is undoubtedly, whether considered in itself or with reference to the effect which it has produced upon the subsequent destinies of civilized man, the most memorable in the history of the world.'

Athens dominated this period because she had won the allegiance -- and the contributions -- of most Aegean cities by her leadership in saving Greece. And because, when the war was over, Ionia was improverished and Sparta was disordered by demobilization, earthquake, and insurrection, while the fleet that Themistocles had created now rivaled with the conquests of commerce its victories at Attemisium and Salamis."

Powerful statements! While we may focus in on the name Pericles, nevertheless I find the word "experiment" thought-provoking. Any comments?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2003 - 06:48 pm
Here is a BIO of Themistocles. I can't believe what I am reading. He was the master mind behind the Greek fleet that defeated the Persians. The Greeks then exiled him, upon which the King of Persia furnished a home for him in Persia where he lived out his life.

Can you see that happening in these days?

Robby

Justin
March 5, 2003 - 06:51 pm
Shasta: The reference was to Marine culture not to war. When one gets old one thinks " I could step back in and feel right at home". That's what I thought was nice- that the life style of the military has not changed. Comraderie can be very inviting.

There is nothing nice about war. It's the worst thing that can happen to a people other than being suppressed by others.

Justin
March 5, 2003 - 07:09 pm
The fate of Themistocles was also the fate of Churchill and MacArthur. Both these worthy gentlemen were relieved of command after the victory. However, they were neither exiled nor given refuge by the enemy. They remained heroic figures to the end.

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 05:24 am
"Intermittently the struggle between Greece and Persia continued from the conqust of Ionia by Cyrus to the overthrow of Darius III by Alexander. The Greek cities of Asia and the Aegean, for their protection against Persia, now (477) organized under Athenian leadership the Delian Confederacy. Since Athens donated ships instead of money, it soon exercised, through its sea power, an effective control over its allies, and rapidly the Confederacy of equals was transformed into an Athenian Empire.

"No other man had deserved so well of Athens as Themistocles, and no one was more resolved than he to be repaid for it. He negotiated with Persia and sought to end the strife between the old and the young empire. When Aristides was placed in charge of the public revenue, he found that his predecessors had embezzled public funds, and not least lavishly Themistocles.

The Athenians passed a vote of ostracism upon him and he sought a new home in Argos. Sparta revealed secret papers to Athens which at once sent out an order for Themistocles' arrest. He fled to Corcyra, was denied refuge there, found brief asylum in Epirus, and sailed secretly to Asia where he claimed from Xerxes' successor some reward for restraining the Greek pursuit of the Persian fleet after Salamis. Lured by Themistocles' promise to help him subjugate Greece, Artaxerxes I received him into his counsels, and assigned the revenues of several cities for his maintenance.

"Before Themistocles could carry out the schemes that never let him rest, he died at Magnesia in 440 B.C. at the age of sixty-five, admired and disliked by all the Mediterranean world."

A schemer. A traitor. An unscrupulous man. A capable man. What if he had succeeded? Would the whole move toward democratic government have come to a halt? Might we now be speaking an Asiatic language?

Robby

tooki
March 6, 2003 - 06:53 am
This site covers material already covered and anticipates some we haven't. Since it does discuss the "experiment" aspect of democracy, it's worth a quick look. Besides, it's the BBC, toward whom I am inclined.

The BBC Speaks

Mal, I think wartime proposals had to do with the lure of creature comforts, notwithstanding male military comraderie.

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 07:14 am
An excellent link, Tooki, where we can read names which are now familiar to us and points out to us that the "democratic Athens laid the foundations of western rational and critical thought."

Following is a LINK to a Proclamation by a former President emphasizing that there were at least two "experiments" -- one of them 2,500 years ago and one of them a bit over 200 years ago.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 6, 2003 - 07:56 am
Below is a link of pictures of statues, artwork on pottery and bas relief which relate to the Persian wars. Themistocles has an interesting face, doesn't he? Funny, but if you type in www.google.com you'll see as their logo an image of ruins and Michelangelo's David today. I wonder why? Also wonder who does their graphics.

Statues and bas relief

Shasta Sills
March 6, 2003 - 09:57 am
It's interesting that our word 'ostracism' is derived from a Greek voting procedure. If they wanted to get rid of a politician, they cast their votes by scratching on broken bits of pottery (ostrakons). To us, ostracism means banishment, and that's what it meant to them too. They ostracized him with their ostrakons.

Maybe Florida should try broken pottery since they can't get their voting machines to work properly.

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 10:31 am
"The leader of the democratic party at this time was a man of whom we know strangely little. Yet his activiy was a turning point in the history of Athens. Ephialtes was poor but incorruptible, and did not long survive the animosities of Athenian politics.The popular faction had been strengthened by the war, for in that crisis all class divisions among freemen had for a moment been forgotten, and the saving victory at Salamis had been won not by the army -- which was dominated by the aristocrats -- but by the navy, which was manned by the poorer citizens and controlled by the mercantile middle class.

"The oligarchic party sought to maintain its privileges by making the conservative Areopagus the supreme authority in the state. Ephialtes replied by a bitter attack upon this ancient senate. He impeached several of its members for malfeasance, had some of them put to death, and persuaded the Assembly to vote the almost complete abolition of the powers that the Areopagus still retained.

"The conservative Aristotle later approved this radical policy, on the ground that the transfer to the commons of the judicial functions that had belonged to the Senate appears to have been an advantage, for corruption finds an easier material in a small number than in a large one. The conservatives of the time did not see the issue so calmly.

"Ephialtes, having been found unpurchasable, was assassinated in 461 by an agent of the olibarchy, and the perilous task of leading the democratic party passed down to the aristocratic Pericles."

So much for honesty.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 6, 2003 - 11:32 am
"In some countries a power exists which, though it is in a degree foreign to the social body, directs it, and forces it to pursue a certain track. In others the ruling force is divided, being partly within and partly without the ranks of the people. But nothing of the kind is to be seen in the United States; there society governs itself for itself. All power centers in its bosom, and scarcely an individual is to be met with who would venture to conceive or, still less, to express the idea of seeking it elsewhere. The nation participates in the making of its laws by the choice of its legislators, and in the execution of them by the choice of the agents of the executive government; it may almost be said to govern itself, so feeble and so restricted is the share left to the administration, so little do the authorities forget their popular origin and the power from which they emanate. The people reign in the American political world as the Deity does in the universe. They are the cause and the aim of all things; everything comes from them, and everything is absorbed in them."



Alexis de Tocqueville

Democracy in America

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 11:50 am
In an article by George Packer published in this past Sunday's NY Times he quotes Thomas Carothers of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace:--"The idea that there's a small democracy inside every society waiting to be released just isn't true."

He later quotes T.E. Lawrence:--"Better to let them do it imperfectly than to do it perfectly yourself, for it is their country, their way."

Robby

CalKan
March 6, 2003 - 12:04 pm
Ephialtes was assassinated by an agent of the oligarchy--- the term oligarchy was used not too long ago by some talking-head and maintained that our government has become an oligarchy. Since I am new to your discussion group you may have already discussed this. This discussion group is so interesting to me and I thank you for the links that you suggest. I wished that I hadn't introduced myself as CalKan and all attempts to change has failed and to let you know that my name is Elizabeth.

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 12:29 pm
Welcome, Elizabeth! We are happy to have you here. Our "rules" are most simple. We stay away from discussing present-day political figures (there are other political forums for that). We address issues not personalities in our discussion group. In other words, we practice courtesy and consideration.

No one here pretends to be an expert in everything although each of us has our own expertise. Opinions by everyone are encouraged.

We are looking forward to hearing your views.

Robby

tooki
March 6, 2003 - 12:51 pm
I agree; the Google logo is new, perhaps just today. I find it ominously portentous (whew!), and I wonder if their graphic artist is trying to tell us something.

BaBi
March 6, 2003 - 12:58 pm
I think all would agree that power became more and more centralized in the Federal government since De Tocqueville's time. I was pleased and encouraged to see more recent trends to de-centralize. Threats of war tend, I think, to place more power into the hands of the central government, since unity becomes so important when war looms. Could we say then, that war tends to powerful centralized government while peace is more friendly to decentralization? ...Babi

Justin
March 6, 2003 - 02:31 pm
Babi, that's an interesting postulate. Clearly, there is some drive toward unity in wartime. Republics like Rome thought a dictatorship was a war-time necessity and that the very oposite-a powerful senate- was required in peace-time. In the US we have what Rome was afraid of-a loud vocal protest that shows a lack of unity to the enemy.

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 07:22 pm
"The man who acted as commander in chief of all the physical and spiritual forces of Athens during her greatest age was born some three years before Marathon. Pericles' father, Xanthippus, had fought at Salamis, had led the Athenian fleet in the battle of Mycale, and had recaptured the Hellespont for Greece. Pericles' mother, Agariste, was a granddaughter of the reformer Cleisthenes. On her side, therefore, he belonged to the ancient family of the Alcmaeonids.

"The most famous music teacher of his time, Damon, gave him instruction in music, and Pythocleides in music and literature. He heard the lectures of Zeno the Eleatic at Athens, and became the friend and pupil of the philosopher Anaxagoras. In his development he absorbed the rapidly growing culture of his epoch, and united in his mind and policy all the threads of Athenian civilization -- economic, military, literary, artistic, and philosophical.

"He was, so far as we know, the most complete man that Greece produced."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2003 - 07:26 pm
Elizabeth, keep your eye regularly on the GREEN quotes in the heading above. They are changed periodically. For those who have the book, they tell us what section we are now discussing (Page 248). For the rest of us, these quotes help to keep us together so that we can all be discussing the subtopic at hand.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2003 - 05:40 am
"As even in Jefferson's day in America, the word 'people' carried certain proprietary reservations. Pericles approached politics in general, and each situation in it, with careful preparation, neglecting no aspect of education, speaking seldom and briefly, and praying to the gods that he might never utter a word that was not to the point. Even the comic poets, who disliked him, spoke of him as 'the Olympian,' who wielded the thunder and lightning of such eloquence as Athens had never heard before -- yet by all accounts his speech was unimpassioned, and appealed to enlightened minds.

"His influence was due not only to his intelligence but to his probity. He was capable of using bribery to secure state ends, but was himself 'manifestly free from every kind of corruption, and superior to all considerations of money.' Whereas Themistocles had entered public office poor and left it rich, Pericles, we are told, added nothing to his patrimony by his political career.

"It showed the good sense of the Athenians in this generation that for almost thirty years, between 467 and 428, they elected and re-elected him, with brief intermissions, as one of their ten strategoi or commanders. This relative permanence of office not only gave him supremacy on the military board, but enabled him to raise the position of strategos autokrator to the place of highest influence in the government. Under him Athens, while enjoying all the privileges of democracy, acquired also the advantages of aristocracy and dictatorship.

"The good government and cultural patronage that had adorned Athens in the age of Peisistratus were continued now with equal unity and decisiveness of direction and intelligence, but also with the full and annually renewed consent of a free citizenship. History through him illustrated again the principle that liberal reforms are most ably executed and most permanently secured by the cautious and moderate leadership of an aristocrat enjoying popular support.

"Greek civilization was at its best when democracy had grown sufficiently to give it variety and vigor, and aristocracy wurvived sufficiently to give it order and taste."

I am in hopes here that some of you folks will help me to understand how Greece "suddenly" moved into this period of "free citizenship." What was meant at that time by "elected?" How did this come about? How were elections held?

And then, of course, there is Pericles himself. A man who "prepared carefully," considered education important, spoke "briefly," sticking "to the point," -- a man of "intelligence" who appealed to "enlightened minds." Here was an autocrat who spoke to and for the people. FDR comes to mind.

I am not catching on (help me out folks) -- how in this period of time right after the wars which Greece won did it move so "easily" into democracy?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 06:52 am
Bubble posted in WREX this part of a letter from her cousin, who is a nurse in an Arab village near Haifa where the bombing was the other day. This is what war does, just in case we have forgotten.
"I arrived to Dalia to day - to a moaning village -



"13 years old, Kamer Abi -Hmaid - Never arrived home....



"She will never sneack again to have a sip of cold water on her way home from school with her chatty friends. They were all there today - standing in black silence.



"No one was thirsty....



"No one giggled....



"Oh, dear God, let them see Your big light, Let Your light shine through them, Teach them that we are all a part of the big glow Send them comfort and ease their lives...



"And Please dear God, let us recognize the fact of brotherhood"

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 06:55 am
When I took Ancient History as a freshman in college in 1946, Pericles was my hero. I'm going to do some searches about him and see if I can remember why.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 07:03 am
The Lakota Indians have a saying.

Mitakuye Oyasin -- We are all related

And we are.

Mal

tooki
March 7, 2003 - 07:25 am
I'm right there with Rob: confused, but trying hard.

There were two parties: the "demos" and "the oligarchic." They intrigued against each other, to put it mildly, in the Assembly and the Senate. And when a politician really managed to irk everyone, he was "ostracized."

If this is in the ball park, it's deja vu all over again. It's to the outside sources. Charge!

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 07:42 am
The link below takes you to a page of pictures, including a bust of Pericles, an Athenian "voting machine", and pieces of pottery which were used to ostracize people.

Athens pictures

tooki
March 7, 2003 - 07:50 am
Perhaps this will help: Athens

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 07:53 am
Pericles' Ideal of Democracy

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 08:02 am
Below is the complete Funeral Oration Pericles gave at the memorial for those killed in war. The link above gives you only a part of this oration, which shows a good deal of what Athenian democracy was all about.
Pericles' Funeral Oration

tooki
March 7, 2003 - 10:25 am
Nice shots. Plato is more handsome than I remember.

In the Renaissance painting (I didn't get by whom), why is Aristotle the old guy? Is Aristotle as an old guy the only visual we have of him from the period? Like we only have Socrates as an old guy.

Notice that the Spartan soldiers are nude from their genitals to their leg armor. In a couple of other sites I've noticed that.

One discussion went into great detail about a vase showing Hector and Achilles fighting. The writer insisted that as they fought they were staring at each other's genitals.

BaBi
March 7, 2003 - 12:03 pm
"Our administration favors the many instead of the few; that is why we call it a democracy." ...Pericles

So that is what 'democracy' meant to Pericles. It sounds like it would fit us today. How many times have I heard/read that America is not truly a democracy; it is a republic. When we say democracy today we mean to say that the people are the ultimate authority, and indirectly that may be true. Not all the people of course, since some of them can't be bothered. Which is also nothing new. But in form of government we are a republic.

This balance of popular rule and oligarchic rule that was so useful in Athens in the time of Pericles, is really very much like our set-up in America today. The House of Representatives is our "popular rule" group and the Senators are our oligarchy. And it still seems to work pretty well. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 02:23 pm
An oligarchy is a state governed by a few, a government by the few. If the U.S. Senate is an oligarchy, I'm out of here. My senators are my representatives, so are my representatives in the House. So is the president of the United States. If they don't do what I think is right, I let them know . . . . repeatedly. They're working for me, not vice versa, and I don't ever let them forget it.

Mal

Shasta Sills
March 7, 2003 - 02:38 pm
Tooki, the painting "School of Athens" is by Raphael. Isn't the close-up of Plato and Aristotle just gorgeous? The colors are absolutely luscious! But I think the computer is probably intensifying the color. Pictures reproduced by light will glow more than the original pigment. Raphael himself would have been surprised to see he had produced such glowing colors. Isn't that Plato on the left and Aristotle on the right? Plato would have been older than Aristotle, I think.

I'm not surprised that the Spartans forgot part of their armor. They never were overly bright. Arrived at the battle late and forgot to protect a vulnerable part of their anatomy.

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2003 - 07:08 pm
Tooki and Mal:--I printed out your excellent links and will be reading them carefully in detail. Makes one realize that just because we throw the word "democracy" around, we don't necessarily know what it means.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2003 - 07:33 pm
"Though the power of the heliaea had grown under Solon, Cleisthenes, and Ephialtes, the lack of payment for jury service had given the well to do a predominating influence in these courts. Pericles introduced (451) a fee of two obols (34 cents), later raised to three, for a day's duty as juror, an amount equivalent in each case to half a day's earnings of an average Athenian of the time.

"The notion that these modest sums weakened the fiber and corrupted the morale of Athens is hardly to be taken seriously, for by the same token every state that pays its judges or its jurymen would long since have been destroyed.

"Pericles seems also to have established a small remuneration for military service. He crowned this scandalous generosity by persuading the state to pay every citizen two obols annually as the price of admission to the plays and games of the official festivals. He excused himself on the ground that these performances should not be a luxury of the upper and middle classes, but should contribute to elevate the mind of the whole electorate.

It must be confessed, however, that Plato, Aristotle, and Plutarch -- conservatives all -- were agreed that these pittances injured the Athenian character."

I still need help. I must have been asleep. All of a sudden we have juries and ordinary citizens performing service on a jury. When did they comes into existence?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2003 - 07:37 pm
This LINK which speaks of the origin of the jury system says absolutely nothing about the Ancient Greeks.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2003 - 07:41 pm
And then there is THIS LINK about the origin of the jury system -- also nothing about the Ancient Greeks.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 7, 2003 - 08:02 pm
Scroll down to read about the Ancient Greek Judicial System.

Ancient Greek Legal System

robert b. iadeluca
March 7, 2003 - 09:04 pm
I printed that one out, too, Mal. It's going to take me a while to absorb just how their democracy came into being. In the meantime, I am looking forward to comments by others here.

Robby

Justin
March 8, 2003 - 12:42 am
The School of Athens by Raphael is in the Vatican apartments. Unfortunately, one rarely has ample time to examine the painting in the flesh because tour guides tend to push folks through the apartments in fast order. The painting is the culmination of architectural perspective drawing. Mathematics and painting skills combine in this work to give us a masterpiece.

The two central figures are Plato and Aristotle. Plato was 35 years older than Aristotle. The philosophers on Plato's side are those who concern themselves with mysteries that transcend the world. Those on Aristotle's side are concerned with the affairs of men, with science and mathematics.

In my judgement the placement is wrong. Aristotle left the School of Athens because the emphasis at the school was shifting toward mathematics. Moreover it was the Aristotelian ideas that the Church later adopted. The painting tends to blend the two opposing philosophies as well as blend paganism and Christianity.

Raphael used people who were accessible to him as models. We find Michelangelo, Bramante, Raphael himself, and some say Leonardo.

Pythagorus is in the lower right working on his harmonic scale for the music of the spheres. Heracleitos is in the foreground wearing shoes. That's Michelangelo's trademark. Euclid is on the right with his calipers. He is a dead ringer for Bramante.

Justin
March 8, 2003 - 12:46 am
In the mid-sixteenth century another school of Athens was formed in Florence, Italy. by Lorenzo the Magnificent, a Medici prince. Michelangelo was a member of the school as were many leading thinkers of the day.

Justin
March 8, 2003 - 12:56 am
Like you folks, I have read much of the documentation about this Greek democracy and the ingredients just seem to appear out of no where. There were some preliminaries in the pre Golden age but there was no talk of a jury system. Cleisthenes or was it Themistocles is given the gate by an ostrakon so we knew about that.

I wonder how a "division of the house" was counted. I guess the ayes stood and the nayes remained seated. If the vote appeared close, then what. Three thousand and one to two thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine is a tough split to recognize. Some voting, I guess,was done with the sword.

robert b. iadeluca
March 8, 2003 - 04:22 am
"Continuing the work of Ephialtes, Pericles transferred to the popular courts the various judicial powers that had been possessed by the archons and magistrates, so that from this time the archonship was more of a bureaucratic or administrative office than one that carried the power of forming policies, deciding cases, or issuing commands.

"In 457 eligibility to the archonship, which had been confined to the wealthier classes, was extended to the third class, or zeugitai. Soon thereafter, without any legal form, the lowest citizen class, the thetes, made themselves eligible to the office by romancing about their income. The importance of the thetes in the defense of Athens persuaded the other classes to wink at the fraud.

"Moving for a moment in the opposite direction, Pericles (451) carried through the Assembly a restriction of the franchise to the legitimate offspring of an Athenian father and an Athenian mother. No legal marriage was to be permitted between a citizen and a noncitizen. It was a measure aimed to discourage intermarriage with foreigners, to reduce illegitimate births, and perhaps to reserve to the jealous burghers of Athens the material rewards of citizenship and empire.

"Pericles himself would soon have reason to regret this exclusive legislation."

Do I see here some restrictions similar to those in existence as young America came into existence?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2003 - 08:25 am

Below is a link to a section about Solon in Plutarch's Lives. Solon did away with the severe laws of Drakos (Draconian laws), and he did have some feeling for the people. Perhaps there are some seeds of democracy and the Athenian judicial system here.

SOLON

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2003 - 09:31 am
"Ephialtes was a democratic reformer in the early years of the 5th century BCE. Evidence about him is scanty, although we can learn a certain amount from Plutarch’s biography of Cimon, who was Ephialtes’ main political opponent Around 462 BCE, Ephialtes brought about changes to the areopagus. He sponsored laws and decrees that removed many powers from the areopagus and gave them to the People’s Court or the assembly. Because the areopagus, consisting of former archons serving on the body for life, was the least democratic of political institutions, the reforms of Ephialtes can be said to have completed transformation into a radical democracy."

Demos: Ephialtes

BaBi
March 8, 2003 - 12:03 pm
Malryn, thanks for the description of the Athenian legal system. It seemed a rather loose arrangement. I wonder if the jurors - the audience - simply consisted of whoever chanced to wander into the courts that day?

Justin, I have a mental image of 'division of the court' being something like: "Okay, all those who believe he's guilty move to the right side of the room, and all those who believe he's innocent move to the left'! ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2003 - 07:23 pm
If anybody here has not seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding", run right out and rent the video. It's a lot of fun, and it sure is Greek.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 8, 2003 - 07:33 pm
From Dead media.org
"Now, to understand how the kleroterion (allotment machine) worked == and indeed how Athenian democracy in general worked == it helps to know that the citizenry was divided into ten tribes, which were in turn divided into a number of 'demes.' Citizens were born into their demes, and it was through his deme and tribe that the city tracked a citizen's place in the political system.



"The tribes, for example, had the responsibility of supplying jury members, and this was a complicated job. It was complicated because the Athenians were rightly paranoid about corruption working its way into the jury system, and had therefore settled on the practice of assembling very large, randomly selected juries at the last possible minute. This, naturally, was a recipe for royally gumming up the works, but through the miracle of bronze-age technology == as embodied in the kleroterion == the Athenians were able to efficiently go about the business of, for instance, condemning Socrates to death.

"It worked like this. When a citizen sought jury duty (which paid only slightly better than modern jury duty, so don't ask me why they sought it, but apparently they did), he went at dawn to the kleroteria maintained by his tribe and showed up with other potential jurors. He brought with him an identity ticket made of bronze or wood, and he gave it to the presiding tribal officer (known as the archon), who then slotted it into one of the kleroterion's columns according to the jury-section letter stamped on the ticket. The slots were filled starting at the top row and working down.



"Once all the candidates' tickets were slotted in, the archon took a quantity of small bronze balls == some colored white, the rest black == and poured them into the funnels at the tops of the kleroteria. The total number of balls was equal to the number of rows filled with tickets, and the number of white balls was a function of the number of juries that needed to be filled that day.



"So: the balls fell down into the tube, at the bottom of which they were stopped by the aforementioned crank- driven device. The crank was turned, and one ball dropped out. If the ball was black, the first row of tickets was removed from the kleroterion, and their owners were dismissed. If the ball was white, the first row of tickets remained in place, and their owners were jurors for the day. Another ball was released, another row of candidates dismissed or accepted, and so on. At last the final ball was dropped and the judicial day began."

Justin
March 8, 2003 - 08:50 pm
OK Babi. So now we have a big bunch of people on the left and a big bunch on the right. Now what? Get them to form a single line and to count off. The last person on the right and the last person on the left come forward and report their numbers. One says 3001 and the other says 3000. Do it again.

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 05:21 am
Mal:--Your posting on "jury selection" was intriguing. Sounds exactly like those lottery spots on TV where someone turns a crank on a glass jar and five numbers drop out.

Aah -- how far mankind has progressed! Are you listening, Voltaire?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 05:41 am
"Since any form of government seems good that brings prosperity, and even the best seems bad that hinders it, Pericles, having consolidated his political position, turned to economic statesmanship. He sought to reduce the pressure of population upon the narrow resources of Attica by establishing colonies of poor Athenian citizens upon foreign soil. To give work to the idle, he made the state an employer on a scale unprecedented in Greece. Ships were added to the fleet, arsenals were built, and a great corn exchange was erected at the Piraeus.

"To protect Athens effectively from siege by land, and at the same time to provide further work for the unemployed, Pericles persuaded the Assembly to supply funds for constructing eight miles of 'Long Walls,' as they were to be called, connecting Athens with the Piraeus and Phalerum. The effect was to make the city and its ports one fortified enclusure, open in wartime only to the sea -- on which the Athenian fleet was supreme.

"In the hostility with which unwalled Sparta looked upon this program of fortification the oligarchic party saw a chance to recapture political power. Its secret agents invited the Spartans to invade Attica and, with the aid of an oligarchic insurrention, to put down the democracy. In this event the oligarchs pledged themselves to level the Long Walls.

"The Spartans agreed, and dispatched an army which defeated the Athenians at Tanagra (457) but the oligarchs failed to make their revolution. The Spartans returned to the Peloponnesus empty-handed, dourly awaiting a better opportunity to overcome the flourishing rival that was taking from them their traditional leadership of Greece."

Lots of politics here. Any comments?

Robby

tooki
March 9, 2003 - 07:38 am
Herewith, a charming history of the Long Walls.

Greek City Planning

On another topic: I suppose "intermarriage" being illegal did nothing at all to stop it. It likely just increased the number of illigimate children?

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 07:43 am
Here are some THOUGHTS regarding "government and prosperity" starting back with the cavemen.

Robby

tooki
March 9, 2003 - 09:36 am
According to Mal's post, the jury system was based on the tribes. Way back on p. 114 the Durants told us that Cleisthemes abolished "kinship classification," in 507.

He replaced it with a "territorial division into ten tribes." He was trying to break down and prevent the old parties of Mountain, Shore, and Plain.

Attempts to eliminate organizing by Mountain, Shore and Plain must have been very difficult because these divisions were eons old.

Material that I've read lately discusses these ecological divisions. All countries surrounding the Med were divided along these lines. This was because the Med and its surrounding land is a plethora of mini ecosystems.

The folks that lived and farmed in the three divisions had very different concerns about their crops, hunting, and living. Briefly, some were hot, others cold. Some were fishing dependent; some were growing crops. Others were still hunter/gatherers.

This is shortcut talk; I hope it's somewhat understandable. Because if these differences in attitudes persisted it sure goes a long way toward explaining the chaos of Greek life.

Here were all these folks from different places, with deep-seated differences trying to agree on things. No wonder they were a wonderfully difficult people.

gaj
March 9, 2003 - 11:39 am
Pericles called his government a democracy, but his democracy was more like how the new Untied States set up its democracy. Women and slaves were not considered citizens. A woman had to go to a male citizen to have a case held to view her greviance.

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 11:56 am
Do any of you here see the Greek democracy as more like the New England "town meeting?"

Robby

gaj
March 9, 2003 - 12:09 pm
I think so.

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 12:28 pm
"Pericles rejected the temptation to retaliate upon Sparta and, instead, devoted his energies now to the beautification of Athens. Hoping to make his city the cultural center of Hellas, and to rebuild the ancient shrines -- which the Persians had destroyed -- on a scale and with a splendor that would lift up the soul of every citizen, he devised a plan for using all the genius of Athens' artists, and the labor of her remaining unemployed, in a bold program for the architectural adornment of the Acropolis.

"'It was his desire and design', says Plutarch, 'that the undisciplined mechanic multitude should not go without their share of public funds, and yet should not have these given them for sitting still and doing nothing. To this end he brought in these vast projects of construction.'

"To finance the undertaking he proposed that the treasury accumulated by the Delian Confederacy should be removed from Delos, where it lay idle and insecure and that such part of it as was not needed for common defense should be used to beautify what seemed to Pericles the legitimate capial of a beneficent empire."

Urban beautification -- a welfare program -- an unemployment program -- the equivalent of a W.P.A. -- withdrawal of funds which were not producing dividends and converting them to an endowment for the Arts.

We have to remind ourselves that this all took place 2,500 years ago! And if we consider those times ancient, please note that Plutarch who lived in those times spoke of their rebuilding what he called "ancient" shrines.

Now many of us are concerned about what may happen a week or so from now.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 12:52 pm
There is a fable in The Arabian Nights about an Oriental monarch who, early in life, asked his wise men for the sum and substance of all learning, for the truth that would apply to everything at all times and under all conditions, a truth which would be as absolutely sovereign as he thought himself to be. Finally, over the king's deathbed, his wise men supplied the following answer: “Oh, mighty king, this one truth will always apply to all things: ‘And this too shall pass away’.”

robert b. iadeluca
March 9, 2003 - 01:49 pm
Democracy in Ancient Greece lasted from 508 B.C. to 267 B.C. -- 241 years -- longer than the American democracy has so far lasted.

How much longer will we have?

Robby

gaj
March 9, 2003 - 01:57 pm
The USA form of goverment will last as long as the people want freedom more than complete saftey from outside harm and inside crime. The more that freedoms are reduced the faster will come the downfall.

BaBi
March 9, 2003 - 02:01 pm
LOL! JUSTIN, I don't know, that's just the image that fits 'dividing the room'. Do you really think those jury room, or assembly rooms, held 6000 people?

However, just for speculation: suppose the assembly room contains benches that will seat 1200 people, but only 1000 are allowed to attend the assembly. When the attendents are ordered to cast their vote by moving to the right or left side of the room, they must seat themselves beginning with the benches on the far sides. That will leave 200 empty seats between the two sides. Just count the empty seats on the right and on the left, and you have your vote. (If I can work out something, I'm sure they were able to work out something, too.) ...Babi

Justin
March 9, 2003 - 10:03 pm
Babi: I'm sure you're right. Those Greeks were pretty smart cookies. Just think they formulated a WPA before Roosevelt. Probably had guys leaning on shovels too. What's interesting to me is the support of the arts with a GEA. I wonder if the Greeks also put up with a Jesse Helms.

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2003 - 05:08 am
"While the work proceeded, and Pericles' especial protection and support were given to Pheidias, Ietinus, Mnesicles, and the other artists who labored to realize his dreams, he lent his patronage also to literature and philosophy. Whereas in the other Greek cities of this period the strife of parties consumed much of the energy of the citizens, and literature languished, in Athens the stimulus of growing wealth and democratic freedom was combined with wise and cultured leadership to produce the Golden Age. When Pericles, Aspasia, Pheidias, Anaxagoras, and Socrates attended a play by Euripides in the Theater of Dionysus, Athens could see visibly the zenith and unity of the life of Greece -- statesmanship, art, science, philosophy, literature, religion, and morals living no separate career as in the pages of chroniclers, but woven into one many-colored fabric of a nation's history.

"It seems hardly credible and yet on second thought more natural, that the stern 'Olympian' should have been keenly susceptible to the charms of woman. His self-control fought against a delicate sensibility, and the toils of office must have heightened in him the normal male longing for feminine tenderness.

"He had been many years married when he met Aspasia. She belonged to -- she was helping to create -- the type of hetaira that was about to play so active a part in Athenian life:--a woman rejecting the seclusion that marriage brought to the ladies of Athens, and preferring to live in unlicensd unions, even in relative promiscuity, if thereby she might enjoy the same freedom of movement and conduct as men, and participate with them in their cultural interests.

"We have no testimony to Aspasia's beauty, though ancient writers speak of her 'small, high-arched foot,' 'her silvery voice,' and her golden hair. Aristophanes, an unscrupulous political enemy of Pericles, describes her as a Milesian courtesan who had established a luxurious brothel at Megara, and had now imported some of her girls into Athens. The great comedian delicately suggests that the quarrel of Athens with Megara, which precipated the Peloponnesian War, was brought about because Aspasia persuaded Pericles to revenge her upon Megarians who had kidnaped some of her personnel.

"But Aristophanes was not an historian, and may be trusted only where he himself is not concerned."

SEX moves into the halls of statesmanship.

Robby

tooki
March 10, 2003 - 07:31 am
This writer has an interesting slant on the position of women in ancient Greece. As far as married woman were concerned, having sons was important,and women kept birthing until they produced a son.

To guarantee the success of their reproducitive ability women were socialized not to engage in physical actitivy, or any other activites that might hamper their reproductive success.

Greek Woman

All of this rigidity was to protect women! Sounds familiar to me.

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2003 - 07:34 am
Tooki:--When I clicked onto your link, I got a travel ad.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 10, 2003 - 07:35 am
ASPASIA OF MILETUS

Malryn (Mal)
March 10, 2003 - 07:49 am
Below is a good pictorial page about Athens, which includes pictures of Aspasia (from a sculpted bust) and Pericles.

ATHENS -- THE VISUAL ENVIRONMENT

Malryn (Mal)
March 10, 2003 - 08:02 am
You know, I mentioned the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" the other day. There's much in this present-day story that reflects attitudes and mores of Ancient Greece. The father is super Greek, has decorated his house to make it look like the Parthenon with copies of Greek statues in the front yard. According to him all words in English have Greek roots, and his two children and all others in the large related family must go to "Greek school".

He has only one daughter, who is unmarried. Her father is very upset because she's 30 and has not married and had children because that's what Greek daughters must do. The daughter decides she wants to take college courses in computer. The father strenuously objects. Why should a woman want to take college courses when she can work in the family business? The mother and daughter contrive to make the father see that computer knowledge would help in one of the family's businesses.

When the daughter is released somewhat from the father's and her large family's hold, and has permission to go to school, she falls in love with a man who is not Greek. What a furor when they decide to get married!

I knew many Greek Americans in my hometown, and the girls all faced the same problems. I might add here that the family in the movie is a wonderful one, and the Greek American families I've known have been equally as fine.

Oh, yes. Some of the dancing in the movie at family get-togethers and the wedding looks exactly like the dances on Ancient Greek pottery.

Mal

tooki
March 10, 2003 - 09:14 am
This is an interesting site about the status of different classes of women, so I'll try it again. It ties in with "My Big Fat Greek Wedding."

Representation of Prositutes versus Respectable Women on Ancient Greek Vases

If you don't want to read the whole thing, just scroll down and look at the links

BaBi
March 10, 2003 - 10:28 am
JUSTIN, I doubt it very much. As far as I can see, the Greeks tended to exile anybody who aggravated them. You figure they would find Jesse aggravating?

I read an excellent historical novel about Aspasia. I wish I could remember the name of it now. I gave me a very clear picture of the social situation, and the intellect and gifts that made Aspasia a beloved and respected companion to Pericles. Considering what she was facing in Athenian society of her day, I would say her choices were realistic and intelligent. ....Babi

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2003 - 07:34 pm
If you will forgive another side trip, this article from today's NY Times shows how one scientist applies the messages in ANCIENT GREEK STORIES to current day warfare.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 10, 2003 - 08:11 pm
"Arriving in Athens about 450, Aspasia opened a school of rhetoric and philosophy, and boldly encouraged the public emergence and higher education of women. Many girls of good family came to her classes, and some husbands brought their wives to study with her. Men also attended her lectures, among them Pericles and Socrates, and probably Anaxagoras, Euripides, Alcibiades, and Pheidias. Socrates said that he had learned from her the art of eloquence and some ancient gossips would have it that the statesman inherited her from the philosopher.

"Pericles now found it admirable that his wife had formed an affection for another man. He offered her her freedom in return for his own, and she agreed. She took a third husband, while Pericles brought Aspasia home. By his own law of 451 he could not make her his wife, since she was of Milesian birth. Any child he might have by her would be illegitimate, and ineligible to Athenian citizenship. He seems to have loved her sincerely, even uxoriously, never leaving his home or returning to it without kissing her, and finally willing his fortune to the son that she bore him.

"From that time onward he forewent all social life outside his home, seldom going anywehere except to the agora or the council hall. The people of Athens began to complain of his aloofness. For her part Aspasia made his home a French Enlightenment salon, where the art and science, the literature, philosophy, and statesmanship of Athens were brought together in mutual stimulation. Socrates marveled at her eloquence, and credited her with composing the funeral oration that Pericles delivered after the first casualties of the Peloponnesian War.

"Aspasia became the uncrowned queen of Athens, setting fashion's tone, and giving to the women of the city an exciting example of mental and moral freedom."

"Let a woman in your life
And your serenity is through
She'll redecorate your home,
From the cellar to the dome
Then go to the enthralling fun
Of overhauling you."

- - - Rex Harrison

Malryn (Mal)
March 10, 2003 - 08:22 pm
By Jove, I think he's got it! (Almost.) Alan Jay Lerner wrote the book and lyrics for that memorable show, Robby. Frederick Loewe wrote the music, and Rex Harrison and Julie Andrews were the leads. Aspasia was quite a gal, wasn't she?

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 10, 2003 - 08:26 pm

ASPASIA

Justin
March 10, 2003 - 09:45 pm
BaBi: Sure, Jesse aggravated every one he met and thousands upon thousands whom he had never met.He aggravated art people in abundance and women ... too many to count.

Justin
March 10, 2003 - 09:56 pm
Mal; Do you know the sculptor of the Aspasia. The work looks Helenistic but could be as late as Canova. The Pauline Borghese is too close to be mistaken.

Bubble
March 11, 2003 - 01:14 am
More and more as we continue here, I can see that my school was modeled on the Greek curriculum. My worset regret in education is that I had to flee and did not complete the last two years of High School in this original school. They were called respectively Philo year and retho year. I went to finish high school in Europe and it was not the same at all. There is was a factory to produce students with grades for university. In Congo, we all felt transformed to Aspasias

tooki
March 11, 2003 - 07:13 am
Really, Bubble. How wonderful; transformed to Aspasias. I deduce this was somewhere in Africa. The Congo?

Justin - Maybe Mal can find the sculptor. I couldn't, but it looks like Canova to me too. Maybe Mal can look for Canova's stuff.

Hun - Re Post 710: Aphrodite needed all the cheap tricks she could get; no Aspasia her.

tooki
March 11, 2003 - 07:22 am
Does anyone remember, "Never on Sunday?" It was a movie about an alluring, contemporary Aspasia. Her profession was considered quite respectable. The title is self explanatory. It starred Greece's most famous movie actress (at the time). Something like Mirina M..., comes to mind. Good grief! When would that have been?

tooki
March 11, 2003 - 07:28 am
Is this the sculpture?

Canova's Aspasia

There's more where that came from, but I've got to go now. Bak Son.

Malryn (Mal)
March 11, 2003 - 07:33 am

About MELINA MERCOURI on a Hellenic Ministry of Culture page

Bubble
March 11, 2003 - 09:27 am
Yes Tooki, Congo-Zaire.



I do remember "Never on Sunday", and the main musical theme and song of the film was a hit for years. Melina Mercouri was a grand lady with a vision. Many of the actors and singers in Greece were and are politically active. Nana Mouskouri, Theodorakis. Bubble

BaBi
March 11, 2003 - 11:58 am
Right on! I have tremendous respect for Melina Mercouri, as an actress and as a political figure. One could say that Aspasia opened the doors for Melina. ...Babi

tooki
March 11, 2003 - 04:22 pm
Great little discussion of her. Thanks, Mal. I wish I had known about Aspasia when I was a teen ager. She would have made a tremendous role model for me. I needed one.

While waiting for Rob to reappear, here's a question. Does anyone think the multi-ethic looking Anthony Quinn made a decent "Zorba the Greek?"

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2003 - 05:47 pm
What a sculpture of Aspasia! Oh, if I were only 2,500 years older!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 11, 2003 - 05:58 pm
Dr. Durant, having paused to listen to our comments, now continues:--"The conservatives were shocked and turned it to their purposes. They denounced Pericles for leading Greeks out to war against Greeks, as in Aegina and Samos. They accused him of squandering public funds. Finally, through the mouths of irresponsible comic dramatists abusing the free speech that prevailed under his rule, they charged him with turning his home into a house of ill fame, and having relations with the wife of his son.

"Not daring to bring any of these matters to open trial, they attacked him through his friends. They indicted Pheidias for embezzling, as they alleged, somne of the gold assigned to him for his chryselephantine Athena, and apparently succeeded in convicting him. They indicted Anaxogoras on the ground of irreligion, and the philosopher, on Pericles' advice, fled into exile. They brought against Aspasia a like writ of impiety (graphe asebeias), complaining that she had shown disrespect for the gods of Greece.

"The comic poets satirized her mercilessly as a Deianeira who had ruined Pericles, and called her, in plain Greek, a concubine. One of them, Hermippus, doubtless in turn a dishonest penny, accused her of serving as Pericles' procuress, and of bringing freeborn women to him for his pleasure. At her trial, which took place before a court of fifteen hundred jurors, Pericles spoke in her defense, using all his eloquence, even to tears. The case was dismissed.

"From that moment (432) Pericles began to lose his hold upon the Atheniam people. When, three years later, death came to him, he was already a broken man."

So what's new??!!

Robby

Justin
March 11, 2003 - 11:19 pm
Tooki: The image is that of Pauline Borghese- Napoleon's sister. It is Canova's work. When I last saw it I gave her a little pat and a squeeze. She is in the Borghese palace in Rome. There are some differences which you will notice. The Greek is coy with head bowed. Pauline is proud with head raised. The far leg is exposed in the Greek work and the near leg in the Canova. Pauline is holding an apple, I think, and you know what that means. It means she is the first seductress. That's an interesting thought. Aspasia's dates are about 450 or so. Genesis was reduced to writing about 100 years later. I don't know where I am going with that but there it is.

Justin
March 11, 2003 - 11:42 pm
I see BC as our present day Pericles. His enemies tried hard to get him through his friends and his Aspasia. They got him but did not break him. He will come back for an encore on the tail of his Aspasia.

Justin
March 11, 2003 - 11:58 pm
There were 43,000 Athenian citizens in a population of 300,000.That's about 14%. There were two main political clubs each with an active membership of about 5%. That's pretty close to our current experience in the US. Some things do not change. Administrative and Judicial roles were filled by lot. Our judgeships are also filled by lot. In states where judges are elected by the voters, it is impossible to learn anything about their previous records. The choice is often one of eeni, meany, miney, moe.

Bubble
March 12, 2003 - 02:30 am
The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

-Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

Bubble
March 12, 2003 - 02:35 am
Tooki, for me Quinn's Zorba was true to life. He could be the clone of my Greek cousin with is gift of the gab, his joie de vivre, his down to earth logic. All those for me are characteristics in the Mediterranean people. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2003 - 04:37 am
As the change in the GREEN quotes above indicate, Durant has moved on to another section which he calls

ATHENIAN DEMOCRACY.

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2003 - 04:40 am
"We must study this democracy carefully, for it is one of the outstanding experiments in the history of government."

- - - Will Durant

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2003 - 04:59 am
"This democracy is limited, first, by the fact that only a small minority of the people can read. It is limited physically by the difficulty of reaching Athens from the remoter towns of Attica. The franchise is restricted to those sons, of two free Athenian parents, who have reached the age of twenty-one. Only they and their families enjoy civil rights, or directly bear the military and fiscal burdens of the state.

"Within this jealously circumscribed circle of 43,000 citizens out of an Attic population of 315,000 , political power, in the days of Pericles, is formally equal. Each citizen enjoys and insists upon isonomia and inegoria -- equal rights at law and in the Assembly. To the Athenian a citizen is a man who has not only votes, but takes his turn, by lot and rote, as magistrate or judge. He must be free, ready, and able to serve the state at any time.

"No one who is subject to another, or who has to labor in order to live, can have the time or the capacity for these services. Therefore the manual worker seems to most Athenians unfit for citizenship, though, with human inconsistency they admit the peasant proprietor. All of the 115,000 slaves of Attica, all women, nearly all workingmen, all of the 28,500 'metics' or resident aliens, and consequently a great part of the trading class, are excluded from the franchise."

Let us pause to compare this original experiment with our current-day experiment in democracy. Some questions come to mind. What percentage of the population in which we reside can read? What is the reasoning behind the age we set at which our citizens can vote? Do we believe that those in our society who have to "labor to live" have the time and capacity to serve the state?

Why were women excluded so long from the right to vote? (My mother couldn't vote until 1920, the year I was born.) Do you folks believe that resident aliens should be entitled to these rights?

How is our experiment doing?

Robby

Bubble
March 12, 2003 - 06:05 am
Here permanent alien residents have the right to vote for their municipality elections but not for the national polls. It seems fair enough.

tooki
March 12, 2003 - 06:51 am
Justin, thanks for the analysis. I will return to the images, looking for the differences you mention. I've never mentioned this, but since the lovely Pauline has come up for brief discussion I must confess that my name is "Pauline." Honest! I'm not trying to bask in reflected glory. Although I am willing to accept all the glory I can get, reflected or not. Sorry for the interuption. Back to "Democracy."

Shasta Sills
March 12, 2003 - 10:12 am
Sea Bubble, I'm glad you think Quinn's Zorba is true to life. I would have been disappointed if it wasn't.

JUSTIN! How can you compare BC to Pericles? And even worse, how can you compare his "adolescent affair" to Aspasia? Aspasia was a woman of intelligence. You can't be serious!

Shasta Sills
March 12, 2003 - 10:15 am
But maybe I misunderstood you. Maybe you meant his wife is Aspasia.

BaBi
March 12, 2003 - 10:29 am
JUSTIN, what a terrible thing to say about Pericles! BC??? A highly intelligent and charismatic man with the morals and self-disclipline of an alley cat, and the ethics of the worst kind of lawyer. He has earned the low opinion held of him by so many. Pericles definitely did not.

ROBBY, I think it would be fair to say that the hours of labor required to live these days are MUCH fewer than in the days we are studying. Weren't laborers working 12-hour days then? And we do exlude our 'resident aliens' from the vote, which seems reasonable to me. ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
March 12, 2003 - 11:13 am
Aspasia was a hetaira, wasn't she? And a particularly free-minded and free-spirited one, too. Do we females admire her occupation?

Since when have we expected leaders of nations to be angelically pure paragons of virtue? I can think of any number of presidents of the United States as far back as Jefferson, who had little liaisons on the side. Did that affect their or Pericles' leadership? I personally would say no.

Mal

BaBi
March 12, 2003 - 11:26 am
Hmm. Angelically pure? Hardly a requirement. Capable of a little common sense and self-control? I would have thought so. It seems little enough to ask of the man given so much power and responsibility, don't you think? ...Babi

Malryn (Mal)
March 12, 2003 - 12:04 pm
My answer to your question, Babi, is that human beings haven't changed much in the past 2500 years and longer than that, and history does have a way of repeating itself.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
March 12, 2003 - 01:00 pm
Common sense and a little self control for a man with so much power and responsibility would be nice. It is regretful that at present, we don't have a man in that position who has those traits.

The founding of democracy in Greece and the founding of democracy in America have so many parallels that Durant could have been writing about our own country's founding.

They excluded women, slaves, and the working poor from any participation in democracy. America did the same in the Constitution. The addition of the Bill of Rights showed that we had learned something in 2000 years. The fact that every right in that bill had to be painstakingly fought for, does not dimish its importance. Without the bill of rights there would have been little difference from 2,500 years ago and today.

The current attack on the Bill of Rights is alarming, and I hope it doesn't take us almost 200 years to get them back, as it did to enforce them as they were written.

......

Malryn (Mal)
March 12, 2003 - 03:43 pm

Today we learned that my hard-working grandson, Hil, my daughter's son, has been offered a $5000.00 a year merit scholarship by the University of North Carolina. He was also offered a math scholarship at another university. Hil will enter UNC, Chapel Hill, in the Fall.

Hope for the future?

A proud grandmother named Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2003 - 05:50 pm
I know that the temptation is great, what with what is going on these days, but let us do our best to keep the comments about current-day political figures for the political forums in Senior Net.

Robby

gaj
March 12, 2003 - 05:59 pm
I heartly agree with Fifi le Beau. The Bill of Rights is being slashed in the name of finding terriorists.

What I finds sad is how many people in the USA who can vote don't vote. This is such a shame. The USA allows for foreign born people to become citizens. In the beginning it was mainly the rich landowners who had the right to vote.

What we need to remember, however, is that many of the people living in the new US couldn't read. Literacy is very important in keeping the public informed. I notice that in countries that have dicators that they keep 'the people' illerate. An educated public demands more of its governement.

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2003 - 06:04 pm
"The voters are not gathered into parties, but are loosely divided into followers of the oligarchic or the democratic factions according as they oppose or favor the extension of the franchise, the dominance of the Assembly, and the governmental succor of the poor at the expense of the rich.

"The active members of each faction are organized into clubs called hetaireiai, companionships. There are religious clubs, kinship clubs, military clubs, workers' clubs, actors' clubs, political clubs, and clubs honestly devoted to eating and drinking. The strongest of all are the oligarchic clubs, whose members are sworn to mutual aid in politics and law, and are bound by a common passionate hostility to those lower enfranchised ranks that press upon the toes of the landed aristocracy and the moneyed merchant class.

"Against them stand the relatively democratic party of small businessmen, of citizens who have become wage workers, and of those who man the merchant ships and the Athenian fleet. These groups resent the luxuries and privileges of the rich, and raise up to leadership in Athens such men as Cleon the tanner, Lysicles the sheep dealer, Eucrates the tow seller, Cleophon the harp manufacturer, and Hyperbolus the lampmaker.

"Pericles holds them off for a generation by a subtle mixture of democracy and aristocracy. When he dies they inherit the government and thoroughly enjoy its perquisites. From Solon to the Roman conquest this bitter conflict of oligarchs and democrats is waged with oratory, votes, ostracism, assassination, and civil war."

Similar to nowadays? Different?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
March 12, 2003 - 06:52 pm
Robby, the quote from Durant and your question below...

"this bitter conflict of oligarchs and democrats is waged"

Similar to nowadays? Different?

Oligarchy is defined as government by the few. A government in which a small group exercises control esp. for corrupt and selfish purposes.

Democrat is defined as an adherent of democracy. One who practices social equality.

This is similar to what we have today.


......

robert b. iadeluca
March 12, 2003 - 07:13 pm
We of course don't want to get into names or even subtle implications but are there any "small groups exercising control for selfish purposes in our Western civilization?" And, if so, I am wondering if that could still be part of a democracy.

Robby

Justin
March 12, 2003 - 08:58 pm
It looks to me as though the oil lobby has a rooster in the hen house. Power is exercised in a democratic government by the few largely as a result of apathy. I think that's true for Greece as well as the US. Many cities and towns in the US have a little power click that dispenses benefits to protect it's entrenched position. In some towns the problem of coruption is, of course, more prominent than in others. Every once in a while San Francisco experiences a little coruption disclosure. If that were a part of Greek democracy, it is still with us.

I think the problem of citizen apathy is more prominent in the US than it was in Greece. . We, for example, have difficulty finding 12 true men willing to serve on a jury. Most wish to be excused. The Greeks found 1500 citizens willing to serve as jurymen for the Aspasia trial.

Justin
March 13, 2003 - 12:02 am
A little strange wooing should not be seen as adolescent behavior. Most men enjoy the experience regardless of their age. I bet the Greeks enjoyed it too. The problem was created by a media that thinks with a 1930's mind set. We men are not made of marble. Well, maybe some men are made of marble but not real men.

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2003 - 04:52 am
"Since transportation is difficult over the hills of Attica, only a fraction of the eligible members ever attend any one meeting. There are rarely more than two or three thousand. The Assembly meets four times a month. Each session opens with the sacrifice of a pig to Zeus. Before considering a bill, the Assembly is required to submit it to the Council of Five Hundred for preliminary examination, very much as a bill in the American Congress is referred to a committee. The Council may not reject a proposal outright. It may only report it, with or without a recommendation.

"Those who wish to speak are heard in the order of their age. Anyone may be disqualified from addressing the Assembly if it can be shown that he is not a landowner -- or is not legally married -- or has neglected his duties to his parents -- or has offended public morals -- or has evaded a military obligation -- or has thrown away his shield in bettle -- or owes taxes or other money to the state.

"Only trained orators avail themselves of the right to speak for the Assembly is a difficult audience. It laughs at mispronunciations, protests aloud at digressions, expresses its approval with shouts, whistling and clapping of hands and, if it strongly disapproves, makes such a din that the speaker is compelled to leave the bema, or rostrum. Each speaker is allowed a given time, whose lapse is measured by a clepsydra or water clock."

How about that, folks? Democracy in action?

Robby

tooki
March 13, 2003 - 09:40 am
Indeed!

The site below, although political, doesn't mention specific names. I found it interestingly inflamatory.

Is Democracy A Hoax?

I, myself, am devoted to "club(s) honestly devoted to eating and drinking."

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2003 - 10:05 am
That is an absolutely wonderful article -- forces us to think!

Robby

Shasta Sills
March 13, 2003 - 10:24 am
(Re #842) That's not the point, Justin. We knew he wasn't made of marble when we voted for him. But we thought he was a shrewd enough politician to keep from embarrassing the country. The media was already in existence and he knew full-well how it functions, so that's no excuse.

(It's not my fault, Robby. Justin started it. I'm trying my best to keep this discussion at a lofty level, but he brings up these outrageous comments!)

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2003 - 11:17 am
And now back to Ancient Greece!

Justin
March 13, 2003 - 11:40 am
You're right Shasta, that was outrageous.

tooki
March 13, 2003 - 01:36 pm
Oh, I don't know. It sounded a lot like A Little Night Music to me.

tooki
March 13, 2003 - 05:40 pm
Here is a charming vignette on the closeness of American Democracy to Ancient Greek Democracy.

The Devil Makes Mischief For Idle Hands

He was a charmer, wasn't he?

robert b. iadeluca
March 13, 2003 - 05:55 pm
Tooki:--The link for that was placed here in an earlier posting.

Robby

tooki
March 13, 2003 - 09:52 pm
Was it as revelant then as it was now? I thought it sounded familiar.

Justin
March 13, 2003 - 10:16 pm
Tooki; Thanks for the proclamation by one of our better presidents- one who knew something about night music.

The democratic process is most dificult to keep alive. Other governments depend on the sovereign watching out for claim jumpers while ensuring the obedience of the populace. In a democracy, the claim jumpers rule, and the populace keeps its mouth shut.

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2003 - 06:14 am
When I've read the posts recently, all I could think was that this is the sort of talk that probably went on in Ancient Greece about Pericles. Very little has changed as thousand of years have rolled by.

I'm not exactly sure what page of the book we're on, but I was just reading on Page 256 about the sacrifice of a pig to Zeus before each session of the ekklesia. Wonder if they roasted it later for an old-fashioned Greek barbecue, or turned into a kind of Greek Shish Kebab?

Sessions were closed if there were signs like a storm, an earthquake, or eclipse, all signs of divine disapproval. We've discussed superstitions in other civilizations before now. I'm wondering how many rituals in our democracy are based on superstition?

It appears that there was constant conflict in the government between the oligarchs and the democrats. That sounds familiar, doesn't it?

It's so interesting to read the comments in the Abraham and Julius Caesar discussions. Many times something comes up that we've already discussed in the discussion of Our Oriental Heritage and now in The Life of Greece. So much is interrelated. This time we're living in right now is so very reminiscent of many Ancient times that it seems eerie.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2003 - 06:21 am
On a search I discovered that there is an Anglican Society called Ekklesia. Looking further I found the map linked below, which shows the boundaries of modern-day Greece and its proximity to some countries which are very much in the news right now.

MAP

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2003 - 06:31 am
THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN HELLENISM AND FRANKISM

tooki
March 14, 2003 - 08:09 am
and other superstitions. I have no problem with prayer in the proper situation, but how about before a session of Congress? And the lastest in word magic: not French Fries, Freedom Fries.

Am I missing something or should Rob be posting a new section for us to be contentious about? That is, contentious in our various happy ways.

Malryn (Mal)
March 14, 2003 - 09:03 am
Funny, there never seemed to be a reason for contentiousness in this discussion until recently. ; )

Robby is the facilitator in this discussion. It's up to us to keep it moving. Along with everything else Robby does, he works forty or more hours a week as a Clinical Psychologist, so I rather imagine he's busy right now.

Mal

tooki
March 14, 2003 - 09:42 am
in the eyes of the Greeks.

I've wondered that, perhaps, as Metallinos says, the "Renaissance" in western Europe owed more to the advent of individualism and the merchant class than to the wonderfulness of the the Greek world.

His point, "Colonialism is the extension of the internal structure of slavery to foreign parts," is, in my view, true.

And finally, considering that this speech was given in 1995, his comments about Germany and France were prescience, "...there is an attempt underway to return to the unified European center of (the) time of Charlemagne."

I wonder what else he knows that we don't?

Justin
March 14, 2003 - 12:45 pm
Metallinos seems to be writing with a bag over his head. He knows too much and what he knows is so completely mixed in the bag that very little rational thought appears in his speech. I don't know what he is trying to say. It has something to do with the the European church and its origin and its formation. I think he is saying the European church owes more to Frankism than to Hellenism for its current appearance. He seems to be saying the same about the Renaisance. Anyone else having trouble with this fellow?

BaBi
March 14, 2003 - 02:16 pm
Making my excuses ahead of time..... I'm expecting my son and granddaughter to arrive tonight to spend a few days. This is going to seriously cut in on my browsing time, so forgive me if seem to be neglecting ancient Greece. I'll be doing more quick-scanning, and less posting. ...Babi

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2003 - 06:02 pm
I have many other activities in my life in addition to Senior Net so, based on recent postings, I came to the conclusion that for a while participants didn't want to talk about Ancient Greece.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 14, 2003 - 06:05 pm
Here is a re-posting of Post 843. Any reactions to this?

"Since transportation is difficult over the hills of Attica, only a fraction of the eligible members ever attend any one meeting. There are rarely more than two or three thousand. The Assembly meets four times a month. Each session opens with the sacrifice of a pig to Zeus. Before considering a bill, the Assembly is required to submit it to the Council of Five Hundred for preliminary examination, very much as a bill in the American Congress is referred to a committee. The Council may not reject a proposal outright. It may only report it, with or without a recommendation.

"Those who wish to speak are heard in the order of their age. Anyone may be disqualified from addressing the Assembly if it can be shown that he is not a landowner -- or is not legally married -- or has neglected his duties to his parents -- or has offended public morals -- or has evaded a military obligation -- or has thrown away his shield in bettle -- or owes taxes or other money to the state.

"Only trained orators avail themselves of the right to speak for the Assembly is a difficult audience. It laughs at mispronunciations, protests aloud at digressions, expresses its approval with shouts, whistling and clapping of hands and, if it strongly disapproves, makes such a din that the speaker is compelled to leave the bema, or rostrum. Each speaker is allowed a given time, whose lapse is measured by a clepsydra or water clock."

Robby

Fifi le Beau
March 14, 2003 - 06:59 pm
To speak before two or three thousand who are ready and willing to put you to the test would take not only a good orator, but a man of courage. I had forgotten their assembly was so large, it is a miracle they ever accomplished anything.

I like the idea of interaction between the speakers and the audience. This happens in parliment, and watching Tony Blair give answers to questions from the House, and their reaction to his words is refreshing. This is one part of Britain that I wish we had adopted, with the president going to congress to answer questions, instead of rare staged press conferences.

Those Greeks were a tough audience, even complaining about mispronounced words, and how you were treating MaMa and PaPa.

Get the hook!

......

Justin
March 14, 2003 - 11:05 pm
Demosthenes was a speaker to the Greek assembly. It is said he trained by speaking to the ocean with pebbles in his mouth. Sixty years ago my father gave me a copy of Demosthene's speeches. I am sorry to say that I have that gift today, unopened. The book just did not seem relevant in my world. I will get to it tonight. Perhaps, I will discover things I wish I knew sixty years ago.

Justin
March 14, 2003 - 11:21 pm
Those who wish to speak are heard in the order of their age. The age rule makes it necessary to schedule the day's speakers before the Assembly comes to order. No one may ask a speaker to yield, for his age would put him out of turn. There must have been no chairman to act as traffic cop. Probably, no one could rise to a point of order. If there was to be debate, it had to occur in the prearranged schedule. Think how clumsy rebuttal must have been. I wonder how anything was acomplished.

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 04:34 am
"Voting is by a show of hands unless some individual is directly and specially affected by the proposal, in which case a secret ballot is taken. The vote may confirm, amend, or override the Council's report on a bill, and the decision of the Assembly is final.

"Above the Assembly in dignity, inferior to it in power, is the boule, or Council. Originally an upper house, it has by the time of Pericles been reduced in effect to a legislative committee of the ekkelesia. Its members are chosen by lot and rote from the register of the citizens, fifty for each of the ten tribes. They serve for a year only, and receive, in the fourth century, five obols per day. Since each councilor is disqualified for re-election until all other eligible citizens have had a chance to serve, every citizen, in the normal course of events, sits on the boule for at least one term during his life.

"Its functions are legislative, executive, and consultative. It examines and reformulates the bills proposed to the assembly. It supervises the conduct and accounts of the religious and administrative officials of the city.

"To perform these varied tasks the Council divides itself into ten prytanies, or committees, each of fifty members. Each prytany presides over the Council and the Assembly for a month of thirty-six days. Every morning the presiding prytany chooses one of its members to serve as chairman of itself and the Council for the day. This position, the highest in the state, is therefore open by lot and turn to any citizen. Athens has three hundred presidents every year.

In this way, through Assembly Council, and prytany, the democracy of Athens carries out its legislative functions."

Three hundred presidents a year! Council members can serve for only a year. Every citizen serves on the Council at least once in his lifetime.

Your thoughts please?

Robby

Bubble
March 15, 2003 - 06:38 am
By having every citizen take an active part in the governing and seeing it "live", it also makes him take more interest in it, than in just voting for a representative who might or might not protect his right and will.

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 06:44 am
Here is a most enlightening LINK to the "only direct democracy institutions in the United States involving lawmaking by assembled voters."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 15, 2003 - 07:01 am
SWISS GOVERNMENT

This year, Mr. Couchepin is the President of the 'Confédération Helvétique'. If their form of Democracy has worked so well for so many years, it is strange that no other country has adopted it. We will say, that Switzerland is hardly large enough to make a ripple in world affairs, yet in that minuscule country they get along well together in spite of having three official languages.

They hesitate at joining the European Union because they think they would loose their special identity and with a population of only 6 millions they would just be diluted in the EU with 250 million people surrounding them on all sides.

Until recently a referandum to adopt a new law was carried out in the public square with a show of hands. My son who lives there said that only 40 to 50% of voters exercise their rights to vote and just trust that their government will do the right thing. Their military power is laughable yet every young man must do his military training.

The Swiss 'banking system' is what protects them and I pity the country trying to invade this tiny state, the whole world would rise in their defense to protect the gold hidden in the vaults there from all countries in the world.

Eloïse

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2003 - 07:12 am
ATHENIAN CONSTITUTION

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2003 - 07:31 am
Below is a link to an interesting account of how oratory was a gift of the gods, among other things.

In defense of oratory by Aristides

BaBi
March 15, 2003 - 07:33 am
I can't help wondering how many of our legislators would be disqualified from speaking under the Athenian rules. And I wonder if the Athenians considered their time serving in the Assembly as an honor or a burden. Does that "every citizen serves at least once" include those who find the journey too difficult to attend the assemblies? In one way, it's good that the assembly is so large; those serving who haven't a clue won't matter. ...Babi

Bubble
March 15, 2003 - 09:07 am
Yes, the Swiss system works very well. They have a referendum a few times a year to vote on important topics and they can be called up to serve as member of jury at the court of law. They take great pride it this. Not only do they have military service compulsory but they have a refresher session, I think every year for a few days. The army and armament are very up to date and modern. They trust themselves first but value their neutrality above everything else.



Very interesting link in 869. I wonder why it is not tried more.

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 09:40 am
Read the words of some of the GREAT ORATORS of History.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 09:50 am
Click HERE to HEAR a few snippets in their actual voice of the speeches of Churchill, Martin Luther King, JFK, and Malcolm X.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 09:59 am
Here is a HISTORY OF ORATORY with the names of numerous orators throughout history.

Robby

Ginny
March 15, 2003 - 11:58 am
What an interesting link, Robby, I've been enjoying the oratory references and rostrum information. They list Mark Antony and there were two men called Marcus Antonius, and the first one (the grandfather of the one we associate with Cleopatra and Caesar), who died in 87 BC , was considered the finest orator of his day, interesting, huh?

Also of interest is the fact that Cicero (as revealed in the new book by that name) considered Julius Caesar the foremost orator of his time. Thought I would squeeze that in, this being the Ides of March and all. hahahah

ginny

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 12:13 pm
Always good to have you visit us, Ginny! Please remind your participants in "Julius Caesar" that when we complete "The Life of Greece," we will be moving on to "Caesar and Christ." I'm sure they will find Durant's comments enlightening after having had their appetites wheted by Shakespeare's play.

Robby

Ginny
March 15, 2003 - 02:54 pm
OK, will do!!

ginny

Shasta Sills
March 15, 2003 - 03:08 pm
In the Greek myth about oratory, were they using 'oratory' as a synonym for ordinary speech?

I followed up on a link connected to that one, and found out that the Greeks thought anyone who didn't speak Greek was a 'babbler.' The word for 'babbler' was 'barbaros' or barbarian.

Reminds me of my mother. I once introduced her to a Russian friend of mine and she said critically later, "He can't even talk!" She meant that he spoke with an accent. I said, "Mama! He speaks four languages!" But she was like the Greeks. If she couldn't understand him, he was only a babbler.

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 05:01 pm
"The earliest Greeks appear to have conceived of law as divinely sanctioned and revealed. Themis (i.e. what is laid down from ti-themi; our doom in its early sense of law, and the Russian duma) meant to them both these customs and a goddess who (like India's Rita or China's Tao or Tien) embodied the moral order and harmony of the world.

"Law was a part of theology, and the oldest Greek laws or property were mingled with liturgical regulations in the ancient temple codes.

"Perhaps as old as such religious law were the rules established by the decrees of tribal chieftains or kings, which began as force and ended, in time, as sanctities."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 05:09 pm
The meaning of "doom" as in DOOMSDAY BOOK.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 15, 2003 - 05:11 pm
"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning."

This is a quote by Durant in the Heading above. Anybody here growing old? Anybody here learning?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 15, 2003 - 06:30 pm
Older in age just like everyone else, and I'm most certainly learning!

Mal

tooki
March 15, 2003 - 09:48 pm
This clarified some aspects of the issue for me.

Greek Law

I appreciated the introduction of psychology into the history.

Bubble
March 16, 2003 - 03:05 am
It is said that to grow old is to grow wiser; it is also wise to learn more and try to put that learning in practice, even if only in thoughts. We are a very wise community in this discussion! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 04:10 am
A wonderful link, Tooki. Makes us pause and think.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 04:20 am
"The second phase of Greek legal history was the collection and co-ordinating of these holy customs by lawgivers (thesmothetai) like Zaleneus, Charondas, Draco, Solon. When such men put their new codes into writing, the thesmoi or sacred usages, became nomoi, or man-made laws. (In Periclean Athens the name thesmothetai was given to the six minor archons who recorded, interpreted, and enforced the laws. In Aristotle's day they presided over the popular courts).

"In these codes law freed itself from religion, and became increasingly secular. The intention of the agent centered more fully into judgment of the act. Family liability was replaced by individual responsibility, and private revenge gave way to statutory punishment by the state."

Others here can help me but I see what is happening here a most important turning point in history. Prior to this time responsibility lay on the shoulders of some unknown and unseen deity somewhere -- all the way back to the time of Sumeria. Now the responsibility began to lie on the shoulders of the individual him/herself. Each person had no where to look except inside him/herself. This, to me, is the very essence of democracy.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 06:05 am
Click HERE for an interesting link about "Individual Responsibility and Civil Involvement."

Robby

Bubble
March 16, 2003 - 06:39 am
civil involvement seems something learned when interested and not an innate urge like individual responsability would be. There really aren't many Gandhis in the world. I wonder if he had doubts or felt unadequate at times.

Malryn (Mal)
March 16, 2003 - 07:12 am
Tablet containing Athenian laws

Klepsydra (water clock)

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 07:42 am
As I look at that tablet I almost feel that I can read some of it. Bubble, can you read any of that?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 08:16 am
"The third step in Greek legal development was the accumulative growth of a body of law.

"When a Periclean Greek speaks of the law of Athens, he means the codes of Draco and Solon, and the measures that have been passed -- and not repealed -- by the Assembly or the Council. If a new law contravenes an old one, the repeal of the latter is prerequisite. Scrutiny is seldom complete, and two statutes are often found in ludicrous contradiction.

"In periods of exceptional legal confusion a committee of nomothetai, or law determiners, is chosen by lot from the popular courts to decide which laws shall be retained. In such cases advocates are appointed to defend the old laws against those who propose to repeal them.

"Under the supervision of these nomothetai the laws of Athens, phrased in simple and intelligible language, are cut upon stone slabs in the King's Porch. Thereafter no magistrate is allowed to decide a case by an unwritten law."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 16, 2003 - 08:51 am
Solon, Lawmaker of Athens

tooki
March 16, 2003 - 09:03 am
In my view, as long as one looks to mysterous outside forces for causes, reasons, and explanations of one's behavior, there is no individual responsiblity. Without individual responsibility, conflict resolution between people is impossible.

Someone must be right, and someone wrong, and there are facts to make the determination. Without ways to resolve conflict, a society depends on violence.

When the Greeks began taking intention into account and stressing individual responsiblity, as the Durants say, "private revenge gave way to statutory punishment by the state."

The adversial confrontation of individuals in conflict is preserved in the jury system. Thus, one can gain the satisfaction of "being right."

Being personally responsible when one is deranged, to a greater or lesser extent, is another can of worms entirely!

Bubble
March 16, 2003 - 09:29 am
That text is in Greek, Robby and I can only recognize letters. Understanding it is another matter especially that there is no space between words.
The 4th line reads:...reos obolon(e) kai m....
obolon could be obolus, a coin of money. Kai is the Greek for and.
Sorry I cannot do more.

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 09:40 am
Here are examples of the AMERICAN LEGAL EDUCATION as affected by the legal system of Ancient Greece.

Robby

Bubble
March 16, 2003 - 09:50 am
Many Israeli students get their law or medicine degrees abroad, for law in US and for medicine in Italy. This is because there is a quota on the number of students accepted in these branches in the local universities: too many demands and not enough place in the classes. Too many who probably will not find a suitable work later.

robert b. iadeluca
March 16, 2003 - 05:12 pm
The world is on edge and while the political forums in Senior Net are humming with activity, many Senior Netters are suddenly finding other SN topics highly irrelevant in our lives. In all due respect to other SN forums, in my humble opinion there is no Senior Net Roundtable Discussion more relevant to what is going on today then the intense examination of the meaning of democracy right here in The Life of Greece.

I would hope that while we make every effort to resist the temptation to become political, that we hold onto current-day activities in our mind while simultaneously examining what was going on in the minds of those wise Athenians 2,500 years ago. As we move from section to section in Durant's book, we just might find the possible cause of some of our worldly problems or the possible solution.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 16, 2003 - 07:17 pm
Though I loathe and detest war and wish human beings could somehow evolve to the point where fighting each other is not the answer to conflict, I have come to the conclusion that democracy can be fragile as well as precious, and must be preserved. Nothing much in life comes without a price, and maintaining democracy has its price.

I can't think of a better place to be right now than in a discussion of Ancient Greece, watching its democracy arise and eventually fall while we try to understand the forces that brought this about.

I have learned much here in this forum through discussions of earlier civilizations, enough for me to see why democracy arose when it did all those centuries ago. Now perhaps through the study of The Life of Greece I'll be able to see ways for our democracies today to avoid what happened to the brilliant and wonderful democratic civilization that was Ancient Greece.

I wish there were more here to learn from the knowledge and wisdom of Will and Ariel Durant and the knowledge and wisdom of the participants here, people of different nationalities, religions, varying opinions, beliefs and ideas, but who together constitute a unified whole.

Mal

Justin
March 16, 2003 - 09:16 pm
Individual responsibility is not as universal in a democracy, guided by the rule of law, as one might wish. Laws in the US insist upon individual responsibility. But religion continues to play a part in acceptance and rejection of guilt.

There are religions that absolve one from guilt relieving some of the pressure. Some religions are based on free will and others on determinism. Some religious folks say that because their god is omnipotent and omniscient all actions are preordained and there is little one can do to change things. Thus placing responsibility in the hands of god. So often one hears " it's in God's hands". Not mine.

Bubble
March 17, 2003 - 01:01 am
Where does 'Individual responsibility ' start or end?

This new war about to start claimed its first victims. A mother and her two younger children died this night, the father and two other children are in a serious condition in hospital. They are from a well-to-do arab family in costal Israel. They decided to sleep last night in their sealed room with a heater on. There was no breathable air left. They were afraid of the 17th ultimatum from President Bush.



Who is responsible for this loss of life? Enough! Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2003 - 04:51 am
Yes, it is exceedingly difficult so let us do our best in trying to learn a bit more from Durant.

"Athenian law makes no distinction between a civil and a criminal code, except that it reserves murder cases for the Areopagus, and in civil suits leaves the complainant to enforce the court's decree himself, going to his aid and only if he meets with resistance. Murder is infrequent, for it is branded as a sacrilege as well as a crime, and the dread of feud revenge remains if the law fails to act.

"Under certain conditions direct retaliation is still tolerated in the fifth century. When a husband finds his mother, wife, concubine, sister, or daughter in illicit relations he is entitled to kill the male offender at once. Whether a killing is intentional or not it has to be expiated as a pollution of the city's soil, and the rites of purification are painfully rigid and complex. If the victim has granted pardon before dying, no action can be brought against the killer.

"Beneath the Areopagus are three tribunals for homicide cases, according to the class and origin of the victim, and according as the act was intentional, or excusable, or not.

"A fourth tribunal holds court at Phreattys on the coast, and tries those who, while exiled for unpremeditated homicide, are now charged with another and premeditatd murder. Being polluted by the first crime, they are not allowed to touch Attic soil, and their defense is conducted from a boat near the shore."

A new (to us) definition of pollution.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 17, 2003 - 07:11 am

Criminal Procedure in Ancient Greece

tooki
March 17, 2003 - 08:53 am
Where does it begin and end?

Perhaps thinking about it as on a scale of 1 - 10 might help analyze some issues. Say "one" is the responsibility of a citizen in a democracy to vote. And, say "ten" is that country declaring war. (Not "going to war," declaring war on another country.)

"One" seems clear enough to me. "Ten" becomes complicated. Suppose I voted FOR the President declaring war. Am I personally responsible for the war? Suppose I voted AGAINST that President? Does that let me off the hook?

No, this doesn't seem much help. But it makes me feel better to think of large issues in large, albeit difficult, thoughts.

Small wonder the Greeks were irascible, quarrelsome, and charming.

Persian
March 17, 2003 - 12:39 pm
ROBBY - Although I realize this is not the SN GRATITUDE discussion, I wanted to let the posters here know how very much I have appreciated this discussion (even just reading, but not posting too often), while my son prepared for deployment. The exchange of ideas, different interpretations of what the Durant's meant in their comments and the vast historical interactions covered in this discussion have kept me intellectually stimulated, while my heart and emotions may have been elsewhere. Thanks for such a wonderful respite.

Malryn (Mal)
March 17, 2003 - 01:01 pm
Mahlia, my thoughts are with you and your son and other parents, grandparents and great grandparents who have close relatives serving in the Middle East as the reality of this war approaches.

I'm also thinking of BUBBLE and her family in Israel and innocent people in Iraq who will be in harm's way. May your God be with you all.

I'm sure our feelings today differ very little from those of people in Ancient Greece so long, long ago.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2003 - 06:43 pm
"Democracy is not a panacea to eliminate the scourge of war or conflict. We know that conflicts will never cease to exist, therefore war will always be a potential means of resolving conflicts.

"However, democracy provides a mechanism for a more humane means of resolving conflicts. It can be concluded that democracy has the potential to be an effective conflict prevention mechanism. The potential is enhanced when the conditions are ripe for the ideal form of democracy.

"Democracy develops into various hybrids to meet the needs of the people, but what matters most is that the people have a strong sense of efficacy toward their government and their government harbors the same feeling within the international arena. No matter what its form or fashion, it is that feeling and opportunity to resolve conflicts that are the best protection against the use of war."

- - From "Democracy's Diminution of War" by Ryan J. Sylvester.

robert b. iadeluca
March 17, 2003 - 06:55 pm
Ancient Greece was a democratic civilization. Was it also a warring civilization? Click HERE to gather some answers.

Robby

Justin
March 17, 2003 - 09:39 pm
I am not sure that a democratic form of government is any better suited to prevent war than a monarchic government. If we eliminate responses to attack and pre-emptive attack and focus only on agression, we can examine empiricaly the power of a democracy to prevent war.

A monarchic government I think is susceptible to greed, and ambition vis a vis Ghengis Kahn and Napoleon. Monarchic governments are often without popular control. (Unlike UK, Spain, and others controlled by a parliament). Democracies, on the other hand, are subject to popular control and if they become agressive it is because the people want agression, vis a vis The American Civil War.

tooki
March 17, 2003 - 10:04 pm
These definations are from a current "New Yorker."

Karl Popper: Philosopher, author of "The Open Society and its Enemies."

"That system in which the government could be replaced at the people's whim, so that no oligarcy, intelligent or otherwise, could perpetuate itself in power."

Albert Camus: French existentialist novelist, author of "The Outsider," Nobel Prize for literature, 1957.

"That regime created and sustained by those who know that they do not know everything."

The author of the article wherein I found these definations also made this provocative statement. "Peace is not a principle, only a desirable state of affairs." After giving the statement some thought I decided it was merely clever and didn't really say anything.

Malryn (Mal)
March 17, 2003 - 10:41 pm

Lessons from Troy

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 04:17 am
A link to a marvelous article, Mal, reminding us once again that history has lessons if we will but pause and listen.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 04:27 am
Durant concludes his section on Law with the following:--

"The law of property is uncompromisingly severe. Contracts are rigorously enforced. All jurors are required to swear that they 'will not vote for an abolition of private debts, or for a distribution of the lands or houses belonging to Athenians.' Every year the head archon, on taking office, has proclamation made by a herald that 'what each possessses he shall remain possessor and absolute master thereof.'

"The right of bequest is still narrowly limited. Where there are male children the old religious conception of property, as bound up with a given family line and the care of ancestral spirits, demands that the estate should automatically pass to the sons. The father owns the property only in trust for the family dead, living, and to be born.

"Whereas in Sparta (as in England) the patrimony is indivisible and goes to the eldest son, in Athens (very much as in France) it is apportioned among the male heirs, the eldest receiving a moderately larger share than the others. As early as Hesiod we find the peasant limiting his family in Gallic fashion, lest his estate be ruinously divided among many sons.

"The husband's property never descends to the widow. All that remains to her is her dowry. Wills are as complex in Pericles' day as in our own, and are couched in much the same terms as now.

"In this as in other matters Greek legislation is the basis of that Roman law which in turn has provided the legal foundations of Western society."

And so property owners continue their strength.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 05:24 am
We are living in a time of questioning:--good or bad? right or wrong? moral or immoral? legal or illegal? How should criminals (whether individuals or nations) be punished? Who decides that? What should the punishment be?

What does history have to teach us about that? What does Durant tell us about Justice in Ancient Greece?

"Democracy reaches the judiciary last of all. The greatest reform accomplished by Ephialtes and Pericles is the transfer of judicial powers from the Areopagus and the archons to the heliaea. The establishment of these popular courts gives to Athens what trial by jury will win for modern Europe.

"The heliaea is composed of six thousand dicats, or jurors, annually drawn by lot from the register of the citizens. These six thousand are distributed into ten dicasteries, or panels, of approximately five hundred each, leving a surplus for vacancies and emergencies. Minor and local cases are settled by thirty judges who periodically visit the demes or counties of Attica.

"Since no juror may serve more than a year at a time, and eligibility is determined by rotation, every citizen, in the average of chance, becomes a juror every third year. He does not have to serve, but the payment of two -- later three -- obols per day obtain an attendance of two or three hundred jurors for each panel. Important cases, like that of Socrates, may be tried before vast dicasteries of twelve hundred men.

"To reduce corruption to a minimum, the panel before which a case is to be tried is determined by lot at the last minute. As most trials last but a day we do not hear much of bribery in the courts. Even the Athenians find it difficult to bribe in a moment three hundred men."

Your thoughts about Athenian justice, please?

Robby

Hats
March 18, 2003 - 08:25 am
Robby, I read this quote from above.

"The husband's property never descends to the widow. All that remains to her is her dowry."

That's disgraceful!!

Mal, thanks for the link about Troy.

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 09:45 am
HATS:--There are all forms of justice. In some forms, one side wins and the other side loses.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 09:55 am
Click HERE to read about a "new" definition of justice.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 10:03 am
A BIBLICAL DEFINITION of Justice.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 10:18 am
A definition of JUSTICE as given by Clarence Darrow, Mahatma Gandhi, William Gladstone, Francis Bacon, the Koran, Daniel Webster, J. Edgar Hoover, Lenny Bruce, and many others.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 18, 2003 - 11:17 am

"There is no such thing as justice - in or out of court."

-- Clarence S. Darrow

One person's justice is another person's tyranny. I like what Clarence Darrow has said.

Mal

Shasta Sills
March 18, 2003 - 03:41 pm
I was interested in that comment about the peasant who limited his family so his property would not be split up among too many sons. I wonder how he limited his family? Did they practice some form of birth control? Or just drown the unwanted babies? Of course, there would have been no problem with girl babies. They wouldn't have received any part of the estate anyway.

robert b. iadeluca
March 18, 2003 - 04:22 pm
An interesting question, Shasta.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 18, 2003 - 07:39 pm


"In ancient Greece, a hollow lead tube filled with fat and inserted in the uterus served as a primitive form of IUD."

"Infanticide was common in all well-studied ancient cultures, including those of ancient Greece, Rome, India, China, and Japan. The practice of infanticide has taken many forms. Child sacrifice to supernatural figures or forces, such as that allegedly practiced in ancient Carthage is one form; however, many societies only practiced simple infanticide and regarded child sacrifice as morally repugnant. The end of the practice of infanticide in the ancient world coincided with the rise of Christianity as a major religion. The practice was never completely eradicated, however, and even continues today in areas of extremely high Poverty and Overpopulation. Female infants, then and now, are particularly vulnerable.

"One frequent method of infanticide in antiquity was simply to abandon the infant, leaving it to death by exposure. Another method commonly used with female children was to severely malnourish them, resulting in a vastly increased risk of death by accident or disease. In some cultures this is thought to have been an open and accepted practice, while in others it may have been practiced privately, with the passive acceptance of society."

Justin
March 18, 2003 - 10:43 pm
Adult murder is often accompanied by passion. The deed is committed in a fit of anger, in a jealous rage, or in fear of reprisal. Rarely, is adult murder a premeditated, calculated, and objectivly, chosen act. Infanticide, on the other hand, is premeditated. It is an economic response and sometimes a social response. While the practice was probably common in ancient societies it is by no means extinct today. Children are found daily, in dumpsters and in cardboard boxes along roadways. I suspect many infants are disposed of in ways that leave no trace.

California has passed legislation allowing pregnant women to drop off unwanted children at designated places. No questions asked. Birth control and legal abortion help to reduce the incidence of this kind of murder by preventing conception and by interupting gestation. These are rational responses to the crime of infanticide but still some deliveries manage to slip through the cracks and an unwanted infant winds up in a dumpster.

Many well meaning people oppose a woman's right to choose while failing to recognize their responsibilty to care for or adopt the unwanted child. It's not enough to say abortion is wrong. One must also provide for the unwanted children who are carried to term. It's not enough to say the State will provide. The State does not provide and unwanted children appear in dumpsters.

Hats
March 18, 2003 - 11:19 pm
Robby,

I have read the article about "restorative justice." It is very interesting. I have always thought that criminals should be locked away, and all attention and care should be given to the victims of crime.

This article makes a person look at the criminal as one who needs to learn how he or she has harmed society. The article also makes me realize that man is not an island. When a crime is committed, a community of people become involved. There is the criminal, then, the family of the criminal, next, the victim and their family and also the community at large.

Then, as the criminal gains a conscience, a trickle down affect takes place until everyone involved becomes "restored" or "healed." This is "Restorative Justice."

I am fascinated with all the definitions of justice. I must go back and read the other definitions of justice, and all these years, I thought justice had only one definition. This is so fascinating.

Mal, I am very interested in infanticide as well. I know that many African civilizations must have used this method too. I especially found this quote from you interesting.

"Female infants, then and now, are particularly vulnerable." I remember seeing a segment on Sixty Minutes about infanticide in China, and female babies were the most vulnerable.

Mal, another quote of yours, "One frequent method of infanticide in antiquity was simply to abandon the infant, leaving it to death by exposure." For some reason, I thought about the elderly in earlier civilizations who were abandoned and left to die simply because they were of no more use to their tribes.

I am sorry for changing the subject. I just happened to think of the repercussions against the elderly sometimes coincides with what happens to infants in society.

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2003 - 05:03 am
Hats, as I see it, you have not changed the subject. Justice is often harsh, as is indicated in the GREEN quotes above. We mortals often think that Justice means that things turn out "the way we want them" but if I understand correctly the meaning of the statue "Justice" with the blindfold over her eyes, it points out that sometimes it is "just" that we "lose." Durant now continues with Justice as understood by the Ancient Greeks.

"The Athenians itch to litigage. To cool this fever, public arbitrators are chosen by lot from the roster of citizens who have reached their sixtieth year. The parties to a dispute submit their complaint and defense to one of these, again chosen by lot at the last minute. Each party pays him a small fee. If he fails to reconcile them, he gives his judgment, solemnized by an oath. "Either party may then appeal to the courts, but these usually refuse to hear minor cases that have not been submitted to arbitration.

When a case is acccepted for trial the plea is entered or sworn to, the witnesses make their depositions and swear to them, and all these statements are presented to the court in written form. They are sealed in a special box, and at a later date they are opened and examined, and judgement is given, by a panel chosen by lot.

"There is no public prosecutor. The government relies upon private citizens to accuse before the courts anyone guilty of serious offenses against morals, religion or the state. Hence arise a class of 'sycophants' who make such charges a regular practice, and develop their profession into an art of blackmail. In the fourth century they earn a good living by bringing -- or, better, threatening to bring -- actions against rich men, believing that a popular court will be loath to acquit those who can pay substantial fines.

Crito, rich friend of Socrates, complained that it was difficult for one who wished to mind his own business to live in Athens. He said: 'At this very time there are people bringing actions against me, not because they have suffered any wrongs from me, but because they think that I would rather pay them a sum of money than have the trouble of law proceedings.'

"The expenses of the courts are mostly covered by fines imposed upon convicted men. Plaintiffs who fail to substantiate their charges are also fined. If they receive less than a fifth of the jurors' votes, they are subject to a lashing or to a penalty of a thousand dracmas ($1000). Each party in a trial usually acts as his own lawyer and has to make in person the first presentation of his case.

"As the complexity of procedure rises, and litigants detect in the jurors a certain sensitivity to eloquence, the practice grows of engaging a rhetor or orator, versed in the law, to support the complaint of defense, or to prepare, in his client's name and character, a speech that the client may read to the court. From these special rhetor-pleaders comes the lawyer.

"His antiquity in Greece appears from a remark in Diogenes Laertius that Bias, Wise Man of Priene, was an eloquent pleader of causes, who always reserved his talents for the just side. Some of these lawyers are attached to the courts as exergetai, or inerpreters, for many of the jurors have no more legal knowledge than the parties to the case."

I have a hunch that as you folks compare the court system of Ancient Greece with the court system of today that there will be many comments.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 19, 2003 - 08:35 am
Well, now. I'll show my ignorance and say I never heard of Bias before. How interesting that a word I use fairly frequently came from the name of a man in Ancient Greece.

Here in this small city in North Carolina where I live, which is essentially a college town, there is a group of lawyers who offer part of their time to a mediation group where people can go and settle differences before a lawsuit is ever instigated.

Some years ago when I lived in Florida I was involved in a lawsuit after I slipped on spilled liquid in a restaurant and suffered injuries. I sued the worldwide corporation that owns this restaurant for negligence. It was a long, involved, frustrating, complicated, painful, humiliating experience for me, which included being spied on by agents of the insurance company which represented the corporation. The result of all this is that it would take much more than what is called by lawyers "a slip and fall case" for me ever to consider suing anyone again, even if I had been injured.

Mal

tooki
March 19, 2003 - 09:00 am
were confusing me. My old Merriam-Webster (1924) helped me out.

Law: Those binding customs or practices of a community. Primitively, they begin with a chief, king, or tyrant "laying down the law." They evolve to those laws created by the authority of the sovereign state.

Justice: The rendering to everyone his due or right under the law. The administration of those laws is (suppose) to be impartial or just.

As Shakespeare said, "This Even Handed Justice."

tooki
March 19, 2003 - 09:04 am
Plato thought that ideal justice is social harmony in beneficient actions.

Aristotle thought that justice was the practice of virtue toward others.

Courtesy of Merrium-Webster. While the exact sources of thsee quotes was'nt given, perhaps we'll run into them later in the book.

tooki
March 19, 2003 - 09:20 am
There are other images, but this one serves as the emblem of the United States Justice Department:

Justice

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2003 - 01:49 pm
Tooki:--In reference to the quote you presented -- "Justice: The rendering to everyone his due" -- here is where I believe some people misunderstand. His due might be life imprisonment.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2003 - 02:04 pm
Here is an excerpt from the Gallagher Law Library --

"A common representation of Justice is a blind-folded woman holding a set of scales. The origin of the Goddess of Justice goes back to antiquity. She was referred to as Maat by the ancient Egyptians and was often depicted carrying a sword with an ostrich feather in her hair (but no scales) to symbolize truth and justice. The term magistrate is derived from Maat because she assisted Osiris in the judgment of the dead by weighing their hearts.



"To the ancient Greeks she was known as Themis, originally the organizer of the "communal affairs of humans, particularly assemblies." Her ability to foresee the future enabled her to become one of the oracles at Delphi, which in turn led to her establishment as "the goddess of divine justice." Classical representations of Themis did not show her blindfolded (because of her talent for prophecy, she had no need to be blinded) nor was she holding a sword (because she represents common consent, not coercion).



"The Roman goddess of justice was called Justitia and was often portrayed as evenly balancing both scales and a sword and wearing a blindfold. She was sometimes portrayed holding the fasces (a bundle of rods around an ax symbolizing judicial authority) in one hand and a flame in the other (symbolizing truth)."

Robby

Hats
March 19, 2003 - 02:10 pm
Robby,

I have only read three lines of the above post, and I am so excited. I never knew anything about our symbol for justice. Will read more after dinner and after our storm passes.

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2003 - 03:05 pm
Excited people are most welcome in this forum. Excitement is our lifeblood !!

Robby

Justin
March 19, 2003 - 03:23 pm
Justice is often construed as "having satisfaction" in a case. Clearly, justice includes punishment and punishment can be satisfying only to the administrator. I think it is well to remember that Athenian justice meets out draconian punishments for crimes we, today, think are minor infractions. Slips of the tongue and boring one's listeners in assembly could have resulted in painful consequences.

Mary W
March 19, 2003 - 03:34 pm
Can any one tell me what constitutes a jury of ones peers? Would they be of the same race, sex or age? Perhaps of the same ethnic origin, educational background or socio-economic strata in society?

I have observed juries that filled me with dread at the thought of having to ever be judged by them.

Were the jurors in the O J Simpson trial his peers?

I hop this is not too far off our subject. It is a part of the administration of our justice system that has always interested and disturbed me.

Malryn (Mal)
March 19, 2003 - 03:56 pm
I can't answer your question Mary W, but hooray for the fact that you felt well enough to come and post here!

Your friend who should be tried and punished for not writing to you,

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2003 - 04:26 pm
It is my understanding that a peer is a "person of equal standing." Maybe someone else can relate this to a jury.

Robby

Hats
March 19, 2003 - 05:49 pm
Mary W,

I can't answer your question about the O. J. Simpson case because I can't remember the jurors. If you could refresh my mind, maybe I could answer the question.

robert b. iadeluca
March 19, 2003 - 05:53 pm
In line with what is happening in the world at this time I thought this link to the UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE might be appropos. I found it especially interesting that Lady Justice was not wearing a blindfold and wondered if that had a meaning.

Unless you are very militarily minded, you might find reading the whole code in detail much too much but scanning does give a feeling of how justice is rendered in the military.

Robby

Justin
March 19, 2003 - 08:06 pm
One's peers for jury duty are citizens selected at random from the voters rolls. Many counties use voter registration rolls to ensure citizenship. The further selection from the random based panel excludes those who have served previously and within a specified time. Excuses wash out a few more from the panel.

The final selection of "peers" is made by the opposing attorney's, each of whom may reject a limited number of jurors to make the composition of the final panel resemble a panel biased in their favor. The end result is a jury of one's peers. Yes, the football player was tried by a jury of his peers. That is always the result even though some juries have built -in biases that cannot be removed without a change of venue.

tooki
March 19, 2003 - 08:14 pm
I hope this article doesn't merely muddle things more.

Do They REALLY Know Me?

I do believe I'll now go put my head down for a bit.

Justin
March 19, 2003 - 10:57 pm
Tooki: I am obliged to you for your quotes on jury qualifications. Both Wilson and Patrick Henry concur apparently, that a jury of peers is a jury of neighbors who know the accused. The jury selection process that we use today does not permit either qualification to be applied. Further, the accused or the state can request a change of venue if either thinks a fair trial is not possible in a given location. I will try to discover how we moved from a jury of neighbors to a jury of neutral peers.

Justin
March 19, 2003 - 11:17 pm
Durant tells us (near the end of the section on Justice) that poisoned weapons are not used in combat by general consent. In contemporary warfare, guided by the Geneva convention, some weapons have been suspended. Poison gas is one such weapon but of course Saddam may not concern himself with the Geneva Convention. We seem to be moving back to gas attacks. Chemical and biological weapons injure everyone, on both sides and may reopen the envelope for some deadly diseases we have sealed away. Perhaps, warfare conventions are no longer feasible as they once were in ancient Greece.

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2003 - 05:04 am
Durant continues with Justice in Ancient Greece:--

"Evidence is ordinarily presented in writing, but the witness must appear and swear to its accuracy when the grammateus, or clerk of the court, reads it to the jurors. There is no cross-examination.

"Perjury is so frequent that cases are sometimes decided in the face of explicit sworn evidence. The testimony of women and minors is acccepted only in murder trials. That of slaves is admitted only when drawn from them by torture. It is taken for granted that without torture they will lie. It is a barbarous aspect of Greek law, destined to be outdone in Roman prisons and Inquisition chambers, and perhaps rivaled in the secret rooms of police courts in our time.

"Torture, in Pericles' day, is forbidden in the case of citizens. Many masters decline to let their slaves be used as witnesses, even when their case may depend upon such testimony. Any permanent injury done to a slave by torture must be made good by those who inflicted it."

As we examine the forward move of democracy in Ancient Greece, I am wondering just where they were in the progress from barbarism to civilization.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2003 - 07:42 am
Here is an excerpt from a link to the Yale-New Haven Teachers Institute comparing the Athenian and American court system.

"Initially the American court system used common laws as a basis for its decisions. This was due to a lack of written constitutions. With the growth of the U.S. and the development of constitutions (federal and state) common law became intertwined with civil law. Crucial is the practice of “stare decisis.” While in Athens, the decisions of the archons made up their legal system prior to the development of the Draconian and Solonian Codes of Law. The archons decided each case on an individual basis and there seems to be no evidence to suggest that “stare decisis” influenced any of their decisions.

"Another area of comparison between the two systems lies in the type of cases tried in both legal systems. The dike case is similar to the civil case in the respect that both cased involve disputes between individuals. In the same light, the graphe case is similar to the criminal case because in both cases the state or public is affected by the case in question.

"Another similarity between the legal systems is that both systems had specialized courts to handle different types of cases. Differences existed between the procedure and type of cases handled by these courts. For example in Athens there were several courts that dealt with homicide. While in the U.S. murder cases are dealt with in one court, either in the state trial court or the U.S. District Court, depending on whether federal or state statutes were violated.

"The role and selection of the judges was another area in which the two systems differed. Even with Solon’s reorganization, the selection of judges was based on class, even though wealth was used to determine a person’s class. There existed a variety of ways to choose a judge in the U.S. and there are many factors which influence their selection, but class is not one of them (this was not always true). Further, persons without legal training and experience are rarely considered for judgeships in the U.S.

"The role of the judges during court proceedings in Athens and the U.S. is another area of difference. The Athenian magistrate had no say about the outcome. He simply presided over the proceeding. Their American counterparts, by contrast, play a more active part in the decision making process. These judges help interpret the law for the jury and if they feel a miscarriage of justice has occurred in the face of overwhelming evidence they have the power to overturn a decision of a jury.

"The Athenian and American court system entrust the jury with the responsibility of determining truth. One difference between the jury systems is size. The Athenians believed in large juries with an odd number. In comparison, the American jury is composed of only twelve, or sometimes even six, members. Random choice is used in the jury selection process in both systems despite the difference in procedure. Another difference in the jury system lies in the fact that in Athens a simple majority is needed for an acquittal or a guilty verdict, whereas in the U.S. an unanimous vote is necessary.

"Two professions developed alongside each system to aid their citizens in presenting their cases. The logographos aided the Athenian citizen and the modern-day lawyer aids the American citizen. A distinction should be made between the logographoi and the American lawyer. Anyone could be a logographos; there were no prerequisites or qualifications whereas the American lawyer has to pass a bar exam to prove his expertise. In concluding, each judicial system provided a system of justice that its citizens found acceptable. The citizens may not have agreed with the decision of the courts but they apparently agreed with the process."

In your opinion, have we progressed?

Robby

tooki
March 20, 2003 - 09:24 am
The Durants have mentioned a number of times that Athens was never more than 30,000 people, most folks knew each other, at least by reputation, and, it was essentially a small, gossipy town.

Under those conditions a jury consisting of those who knew you would be possible, wouldn't it? Even if they only knew about you.

So, how did we get from there, which seems viable, to here? Justin! Mal! Do what you can, less we have yet another elusive idea, unresolved and unresolvable.

Justin
March 20, 2003 - 01:18 pm
Increases in population converted small towns into large towns thereby increasing anonymity. The larger the community the greater the chance of anonymity making jury selection less and less one of recognizable faces.

Malryn (Mal)
March 20, 2003 - 02:35 pm
The cable we use for the computers in this house is not working today, so I've had to use a dialup service that charges for connection every time I go online. Bad day for this because I certainly feel the need for company.

Robby asked if we had progressed. In some ways yes, I suppose. If the jury system were really good, though, would we have innocent people on death row? Any judgment which is left up to human beings is bound to be inaccurate and imperfect, I feel. Who, then, do we ask to make the life or death decision? Zeus?

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 20, 2003 - 06:44 pm
In Quebec and Louisiana, we have LE CODE NAPOLÉON.

I was surprised that "Before the Code, France did not have a single set of laws." How did they settle disputes then?

Eloïse

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2003 - 07:34 pm
"It is a principle of Greek law that a slave should be punished in his body, but a freeman in his property. A vase painting shows a slave hung up by his arms and legs, and mercilessly lashed.

"Fines are the usual penalty for citizens, and are assessed on a scale that opens the democracy to the charge of fattening its purse through unjust condemnations. On the other hand a convicted person and his accuser are in many cases allowed to name the fine or punishment that they think just. The court then chooses between the suggesed penalties.

"Murder, sacrilege, treason, and some offenses that seem minor to us are punished with both confiscation and death. A prospective death penalty may usually be avoided before trial by voluntary exile and the abandonment of property. If the accused disdains flight, and is a citizen, death is inflicted as painlessly as possible by administering hemlock, which gradually benumbs the body from the feet upward, killing when it reaches the heart.

"In the case of slaves the death penalty may be effected by a brutal cudgeling. Sometimes the condemned, before or after death, may be hurled over a cliff into a pit called the harathron. When a sentence of death is laid upon a murderer, it is carried out by the public executioner in the presence of the relatives of the victim, as a concession to the old custom and spirit of revenge."

Some of these methods seem so cruel compared to our present-day approaches -- and yet . . . .?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 20, 2003 - 07:53 pm
Here are some very startling STATISTICS about Capital Punishment. You might want to enlarge the charts by clicking on them and pausing to absorb their meanings.

Robby

Justin
March 20, 2003 - 09:49 pm
I am not certain but I think the victims relatives are admitted to the witness room for a public execution, today. Of course that may be the case in some states and not so in other states. There may be some satisfaction in being a witness.

I personally, worry that we might not have the right fellow and I am inclined, therefore to pay for life imprisonment. Police seem anxious for credit for the collar and prosecutors strive for convictions as a badge of honor. Jurors, I suspect,are susceptible to pressure from articulate jurors, and to misinterpret the evidence. Sometimes they judge right and sometimes they judge wrong. This must have been the case for the Greeks as it is for us. I think DNA has been helpful in preventing miscarriages but some must occur in spite of DNA.

tooki
March 20, 2003 - 10:02 pm
Laws are passed as needed for a country, or whatever. They have no particular arrangement. Usually laws are passed chronologically and are assembled that way.

A code is arranged by subject. All the existing laws are taken and rearranged according to topic. A code is a rearrangment of the existing laws by topic, or subject.

The laws of the United States exist in two forms. "Statutes At Large" is a chronological listing of the laws as passed by each session of Congress. These same laws are then rearranged by subject and published at "The United State Code."

The difference, then, is in ARRANGEMENT, not substance. Codes are easier to use because all the laws on a subject are together. I hope this helps.

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 03:00 am
I agree with Mal.

"Any judgment left up to human beings is bound to be inaccurate and imperfect."

If there is life on other planets, I wonder how their justice system works? Hahaha.

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 03:06 am
"It is a principle of Greek law that a slave should be punished in his body, but a freeman in his property."

Well, that makes sense. A slave would not have owned property. But why was the slave punished by brutal force? Were there no prisons?

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2003 - 05:12 am
This link to a NOT VERY PLEASANT HISTORY of the punishment of slaves tells of behaviors in colonial America.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2003 - 05:17 am
Does slavery still exist in various nations around the world? Click HERE for some enlightening facts.

Robby

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 07:35 am
I would guess yes slavery exists in nations around the world, even in 2003. I am going to read the article and see if I am wrong.

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 07:37 am
I would also add that slavery, in Africa, takes place in the mines. Robby, is that right or wrong?

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 07:44 am
Oh, The Colonial American article is very difficult to read. What a horrible situation to live through. This article is about my ancestors. I weep for them. I remember reading about some of these horrors in Frederick Douglass' Autobiography.

Malryn (Mal)
March 21, 2003 - 07:51 am
I weep for them, too, HATS.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
March 21, 2003 - 08:11 am

Present Day Slavery

"Many of our fellow Americans believe slavery ended here after the Civil War. And, indeed, slavery based on color did end then in our country. But we know that today slavery based on color still exists in countries such as Mauritania.



"We know that today slavery based on bonded labor still exists on the farms of India, in the brick kilns of Pakistan and in the charcoal camps of Brazil.



"We know that today slavery based on military impressment of children goes on from Sri Lanka to Uganda.



"And most of all, we know that today the fastest growing and most hideous form of modern day slavery, sex slavery, reaches into most countries of the world, including these United States. We know that sex slavery makes billions for organized crime every year. We know at the same time it physically, mentally, and spiritually ruins millions of women and children."
The quote above is from A speech by the Honorable John Miller given at Mr. Miller’s swearing in as Senior Advisor to the Secretary of State and Director of the Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons at the Capitol March 4, 2003.

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 08:18 am
Mal,

That is an interesting article. I have also thought of indentured servants who worked in Colonial America. Was that a form of slavery? I don't know. I know they worked for a certain number of years, and then, gained their freedom.

Malryn (Mal)
March 21, 2003 - 08:27 am
Indentured servants were bound for a prescribed length of time to whoever acquired their services .

It was Minorcan indentured servants who worked in the indigo fields that walked from New Smyrna, Florida to St. Augustine, Florida to gain freedom, a long distance. Today the ancestors of those indentured servants receive high regard in St. Augustine, much as descendants of people who came to this country on the Mayflower to seek religious freedom are highly regarded. I lived in St. Augustine for nearly ten years and did some studying of its rather amazing history. It is the oldest city in the United States, yet Florida did not become a state until 1845. It was under Spanish, French, English and finally American rule.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2003 - 12:26 pm
"The Athenian code advances only moderately upon Hammurabi's. Its basic defect is the limitation of legal rights to freemen constituting hardly a seventh of the population. Even free women and children are excluded from the proud isonomia of the citizens. Metics, foreigners, and slaves can bring suit only through a patron citizen.

"Sycohantic blackmail -- frequent torture of slaves -- capital punishment for minor offenses -- personal abuse in forensic debate -- the diffusion and weakening of judicial responsibility -- the susceptibility of jurors to oratorical displays -- their inability to temper present passions with a knowledge of the past or a wise calculation of the future -- these are black marks against a system of law envied throughout Greece for its comparative mildness and integrity, and sufficiently dependable and practical to give to Athenian life and property that orderly protection which is so necessary for economic activity and moral growth.

>"One test of Athenian law is the reference that nearly every citizen feels for it. The law is for him the very soul of his city, the essence of its beneficence and strength. The best judgment of the Athenian code is the readiness with which other Greek states adopt a large part of it. Says Isocrates, 'Everyone would admit that our laws have been the source of very many and very great benefits to the life of humanity.

"Here for the first time in history is a government of laws and not of men."

As we look about us in our democracy, do we feel Law as "the very soul" of our nation or community -- the "essence of our strength?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 21, 2003 - 12:55 pm
Here is the ORIGIN of the phrase "government of laws."

Robby

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 02:01 pm
Mal,

Is "sex slavery" prostitution or something else?

tooki
March 21, 2003 - 09:55 pm
It's FORCED prostitution, assuming most prostitutes are willing.

Here is an inventory of numbers and places:Sex Slavery

It has gone on forever, and it appears it will continue.

tooki
March 21, 2003 - 10:05 pm
Here's a nice twist on the concept.

Laws or Men?

My sympathies are with John Adams

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 10:59 pm
Tooki, thanks for the article. It is very interesting. I have always known about prostitutes who willingly sell their bodies. I did not know about what is being talked about in this article.

The idea that people are sold against their will into sex slavery is very frightening. It is really scary for parents who have young children. This article mentions teens being sold "against their will" between the ages of six and fourteen.

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 11:04 pm
Tooki,

I wonder if many run away teenagers are being held somewhere against their will and can't get in touch with their parents.

Justin
March 21, 2003 - 11:11 pm
Greece, in the Golden Age, may well have been the first to be governed by laws rather than by men. However, we can not overlook the severity of punishment. Only a few like Socrates were offered hemlock as an execution device. Many criminals were executed by crucifixion. Socrates was fortunate.

Hats
March 21, 2003 - 11:17 pm
Crucifixion must be such an awful way to die. Throughout history and now, in the present, there is just too many awful ways of inflicting death upon others.

Justin
March 21, 2003 - 11:26 pm
Greece in the Golden Age, may have been a democracy with thousands participating in governmental functions but it was a democracy of male citizens. Athens was a society dominated by men who sequestered their wives and daughters (no shopping allowed), denigrated the female role in reproduction, erected monuments to male genitalia, enjoyed sex with the sons of their peers, sponsored public whorehouses offering women,children of both genders and young men, for rent,and created a mythology of rape (Zeus). Greece in the Golden Age was a phallocracy not a democracy.

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2003 - 05:11 am
"Athenian law prevails throughout the Athenian Empire of two million souls while that Empire endures. For the rest Greece never achieves a common system of jurisprudence. International law makes as sorry a picture in fifth century Athens as in the world today.

"Nevertheless external trade requires some legal code, and commercial treaties (symbola) are described by Demosthenes as so numerous in his time that the laws governing commercial disputes 'are everywhere identical.' These treaties establish consular representation, guarantee the execution of contracts, and make the judgments given in one signatory nation valid in the others.

"This, however, does not put an end to piracy, which breaks out whenever the dominant fleet is weakened, or relaxes its watchfulness. Eternal vigilance is the price of order as well as of liberty. Lawlessness stalks like a wolf about every settled realm, seeking some point of weakness which may give it entry. The right of a city to lead foraging expeditions upon the persons and property of other cities is accepted by some Greek states so long as no treaty specifically forbids it.

"Religion succeeds in making temples inviolable unless used as military bases. It protects heralds and pilgrims to Panhellenic festivals. It requires a formal declaration of war before hostilities, and the granting of a truce, when asked, for the return and burial of the dead in battle.

"Poisoned weapons are avoided by general custom, and prisoners are usually exchanged or ransomed at the recognized tariff of two minas -- later one mina ($100) -- each. Otherwise war is nearly as brutal among the Greeks as in modern Christendom.

"Treaties are numerous, and are solemnized with pious oaths. They are almost always broken. Alliances are frequent, ane sometimes generate lasting leagues, like the Delphic Amphietyony in the sixth entury and the Achaean and Aetolian Leagues in the third. Occasionally two cities exchange the courtesy of isopoliteia, by wich each gives to the other's freemen the rights of citizenship.

"International arbitration may be arranged, but the decisions arrived at in such cases are as often as not rejected or ignored. Towards foreigners the Greek feels no moral obligation, and no legal one except by treaty. They are barbaros -- not quite 'barbarians,' but outsiders -- aliens speaking outlandish tongues.

"Only in the Stoic philosophers of the cosmopolitan Hellenistic era will Greece rise to the conception of a moral code embracing all mankind."

It is almost impossible to read this passage by Durant about Ancient Greece without thinking of current-day affairs -- international law -- commerce -- trade -- treaties -- consuls -- contracts -- judgments -- piracy -- lawlessness -- foraging expeditions upon the persons and properties of other cities -- the place of religion in international relationships -- formal declarations of war -- granting of truces -- poisoned weapons -- brutality of war -- breaking of treaties -- rights of citizenship -- alliances -- international arbitration and the rejection or ignoring of same -- attitude toward foreiners --

What is our answer to Voltaire's question in the Heading above? Where has mankind progressed?

Robby

Hats
March 22, 2003 - 05:28 am
Justin,

I don't understand what does Zeus have to do with rape?

Hats
March 22, 2003 - 05:34 am
"Lawlessness stalks like a wolf."

Just like in our society, there must have been many instances of crime. What was there police force like? Surely, there had to be some crime enforcers for the sake of the people.

Hats
March 22, 2003 - 05:40 am
In our justice system, we hear about people who are in prison for days, months and years before their case comes to trial. It seems Greece had the same problem.

"The courts of Athens, like courts the world over, are usually behind their schedule."

I have never figured out how this problem might be solved. Are their any laws on the Hill grappling with this problem?

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2003 - 06:03 am
Hats:--Here is a POSSIBLE ANSWER to your question about the Athenian police force.

Robby

Hats
March 22, 2003 - 06:12 am
Robby, how interesting. I am surprised that the slaves would be used as police officers. Wouldn't that be too much power? I would think that the Grecians would not have thought the slave could make such fair decisions about who should be arrested and who should not be arrested.

Hats
March 22, 2003 - 06:20 am
I can't believe that the Grecians would use slaves as Treasury officers either. Their behavior seems awfully contradictory.

robert b. iadeluca
March 22, 2003 - 06:30 am
On the other hand, the behavior in our society is never contradictory.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 22, 2003 - 07:11 am
Voltaire must have meant that barbarism is necessary for humans to feel superior and more civilized than other human beings.

The barbarism we see now is a bit different. The earth has 6 billion people. Weapons are extremely sophisticated. The economy is what has always been humans' prime motivation. Without loot, there is no reason for war. In a war, religion is merely a front hiding the real motive behind conflicts.

There is no difference between then and now in my opinion. The barbarism of today is more cruel because torture is worse than death.

I am not too worried about overpopulation because war, barbarism, diseases and natural disasters have always eliminated surpluses of the world's population.

Eloïse

tooki
March 22, 2003 - 09:14 am
Robby's post 978 is serendipitous, prescient, and just plain awesome. It so speaks to today's events in the world.

Agreeing, as I do, with Robby and Eloise's comments, I have nothing to add. Except, maybe: Robby, how did you manage to organize us so that you would be posting that today?

Justin's post 977 is right on the mark. I used to think of ancient Greece as full of handsome, patrician types wandering around, spouting philsophy, creating great art.

Now I think of it as full of elite, arrogant, pederasts. More later after I organize my rant.

Malryn (Mal)
March 22, 2003 - 10:26 am
Tooki, Justin is too severe in his post, I believe. What Ancient Greek men did sexually was socially acceptable by both men and women. Other civilizations woshipped the phallus as a symbol of fertility. Look at Ancient India, for example.

Mal

Justin
March 22, 2003 - 11:53 pm
Hats: The victims of Zeus' rapes are so numerous it is hard to know where to begin. Let us start with Io, priestess of Hera (Zeus' wife) and a beautiful young girl. She fled from Zeus' unwanted embraces but to no avail. He ravished her.

Next comes Europa, great granddaughter of Io and Zeus. He rapes her and forms the royal house of Crete.

Next came Calisto, then Semele, then Danae, then Alcmene.

The story of Danae is of special interest to artists. Danae is the daughter of a king who is told that his daughter's son will kill him. He imprisons her, Danae, in a bronze chamber. Zeus is hot for her so he changes himself into a shower of gold, which poured through the roof, lands in her lap. So what's a poor girl to do. In due course Danae gives birth to a son, Perseus.

Next came the rape of the boy Gannymede.

This guy (God) was really active. He is the model for Greek manhood and Hera, his wife is a typical Greek wife.

Hera was , of course, very unhappy about Zeus' philandering.

Justin
March 22, 2003 - 11:58 pm
Mal; I am surprised you think I am too severe. It was not until the pill came along that women were freed of the encumbrance of unwanted reproduction.

Persian
March 23, 2003 - 12:05 am
ROBBY - just happened to peek in and read your post #942 pertaining to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Certainly timely vis-a-vis the investigation begun earlier today of the young American soldier in the 101st who tossed grenades into the tent of his comrades, killing one and wounding several others.

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2003 - 03:46 am
For those interested, here is the section of the Code of Military Justice which relates to MENTAL ILLNESS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2003 - 04:09 am
"Some way must be found to keep the rich from buying, or the knaves from smiling, their way into office. To render the selection less than wholly accidental, all those upon whom the lot falls are subjected, before taking up their duties, to a rigorous dokimaria, or character examination, conducted by the Council or the courts.

"The candidate must show Athenian parentage on both sides, freedom from physical defect and scandal, the pious honoring of his ancestors, the performance of his military assignments, and the full payment of his taxes. His whole life is on this occasion exposed to challenge by any citizen, and the prospect of such a scrutiny presumably frightens the most worthless from the sortition. If he passes this test, the archon swears an oath that he will properly perform the obligations of his office, and will dedicate to the gods a golden statue of life-size if he should accept presents or bribes.

"The fact that chance is allowed to play so large a part in the naming of the nine archons suggests the diminution which the office has suffered since Solon's day. Its functions are now in the nature of administrative routine. The archon basileus, whose name preserves the empty title of king, has become merely the chief religious offical of the city.

"Nine times yearly the archon is required to obtain a vote of confidence from the Assembly. His actions and judgments may be appealed to the boule or the heliaea. Any citizen may indict him for malfeasance. At the end of his term all his official acts, accounts, and documents are reviewed by a board of logistai responsible to the Council. Severe penalties, even death, may avenge serious misconduct.

"The archons are but one of many committees which, under the direction and scrutiny of the Assembly, the Council, and the courts, administer the affairs of the city. Aristotle names twenty-five such groups, and estimates the number of municipal officials at seven hundred. Nearly all of these are chosen annually by lot. Since no man may be a member of the same committee twice, every citizen may expect to be a city dignitary for at least one year of his life.

"Athens does not believe in government by experts."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 23, 2003 - 06:20 am
"Athens does not believe in government by experts." Right, even in today's democracies, people vote for a government that most resembles themselves.

tooki
March 23, 2003 - 07:05 am
The Demise of Classical Education and the Recovery."

Mal. I'm over my snit about the Greeks and their bad habits. What's important is the totality of their values and views about individuals, freedom, and structures to maintain those freedoms. The above book is inspiring. Here are reviews from Amazon.com.

Homer Lives!

To see the reviews, keep scrolling.

tooki
March 23, 2003 - 07:13 am
I did proff that post above. My ' was missing. Anyway, here's another article on the authors of "Who Killed Homer."

More On Who Killed Homer

There is an article in the March 17 issue of "U.S. News & World Report" about these folks.

More evidence that our time with Robby and each other is well spent.

Malryn (Mal)
March 23, 2003 - 08:27 am
Justin, what bothered me about your post was that you said Ancient Greece was a "phallocracy" rather than a democracy. Fertility and reproduction have been important to ancient (and modern) civilizations, as you know, whether the symbol for that is male or female.

The statement that war, plagues, etc. will take care of overpopulation is a fallacy, in my opinion. We've had war after war and serious epidemics of illness just in my lifetime, and the earth's population has continued to increase rather than decrease. Why? In the West as well as many parts of the East there have been medical advances that keep people alive and prolong life. Food and living conditions are better in some places of the world than 100 or even 50 years ago. Illnesses are eradicated and cures for illnesses which resist treatment are found all the time. All of these lead to reproduction and increases in population.

"Every citizen may expect to be a city dignitary for at least one year of his life."
I think this is an excellent idea. It's all very well to talk about how cities, states and nations should be run, but few of us have had any actual experience in the running of them. I have recently come to a conclusion about myself which some of you may know already. That is, I firmly believe experience is the best teacher. To know something intellectually is not ever the same as experiencing it directly.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2003 - 09:08 am
I am having serious computer problems, especially with emails, so don't know how long I will be able to stay. Could continue for a week or could suddenly "disappear" for 3-4 days.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
March 23, 2003 - 09:18 am
Robby, try running a virus scan on your email program. If you use Outlook Express, that might be the problem with your computer.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2003 - 09:29 am
I am having serious computer problems, especially with emails, so don't know how long I will be able to stay. Could continue for a week or could suddenly "disappear" for 3-4 days.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 23, 2003 - 10:09 am
I am running my virus scan. In the meantime, now that we have AGAIN made 1000 postings, be prepared to move onto another "page."

Be sure to click onto "SUBSCRIBE" when you get there.

Robby

Justin
March 23, 2003 - 12:41 pm
Short term incumbants results in a lack of experts in government. We've achieved some of that with a four year presidency, a six year senate, and a two year representative in the House. Some states also resort to term limits. The result of term limits in my county has been undesirable. However, there are other places in which the rascals have been removed from office.

jane
March 23, 2003 - 03:14 pm
Time to pack up and move to a new spot...

Story of Civilization continued -- click here