Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Export

"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

FRANCE

The Coming of the Carolingians | Charlemagne | The Carolingian Decline | Letters and Arts

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.
This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.
The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.
This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.
This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 2 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 3 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 4 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 5
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Jan Sand and Justin:

Thank you both for your responses. I shall wait for the next part.

The first time I recognized the Nazi swastika was when I was about six or seven and I watched as my father washed it off my next door neighbor's garage door. They were the only Jewish couple in an area where most everybody else were Catholic.

They were an older couple who had escaped the death camps and fled to the USA. They had no children so they adopted me and I can remember to this day the wonderful smells that came from that house. I used to gorge myself on all sorts of things but I couldn't tell you what they were. Because her husband worked nights, my dad used to go and stay with his wife until he returned home.

One night my mother and I heard a commotion and I saw a burning cross on their front lawn and with the light of the cross I could see the Nazi swastika dripping down their garage door in bright red paint. My dad was trying to put out the fire while all the other neighbors just stood and watched.

I was reminded of that yesterday when our local news showed scenes of a grade school in Portland, Oregon in the area where I live with Nazi swastikas drawn over the walls and sidewalks of the school in dripping red paint. I felt a cold chill go through me. I wonder when it will all stop.

Scrawler: The Soviet Union recognized the problem and thought it would be solved by eliminating religion from the social fabric. It might be productive to examine the effectiveness of that treatment. We do know that when the Soviet Union colapsed the Churches returned in full force.

The French Revolution brought an end to the power of the Church in governmental affairs and to a great extent made common folks aware of the excesses of religion. The effects of this experience need study as well. I don't know how much scholarship has been expended thus far on the topic.

The think the solution to the problem of religious excess lies in education. Critical thinking is a tool that should be added to the curriculum of every school beginning with elementary school.

Honesty on the part of clerical professionals might also be helpful but that solution is not likely to come about. There will be exceptions of course. People such as Nicholas Kristof, the Episcopal bishop of Newark, makes a useful contribution in this area.

The anti-religious policies in Russia did not exclude anti-semitism. This site details some of the history. http://www.vho.org/tr/2004/2/Michaels227-231.html

Education is a vague term. People can be educated to any doctrine. Some of the more prominent Nazis were educated to no positive effect. Educators in general are not, as a class, congruent with the class of non-believers.

Scrawler:

It has been sixty years since the war in Europe against Naziism. There is a fascination among some young people who need to associate themselves with a group they know is inflammatory to get a sense of power. It is hard to know what brings this on.

Prince Harry was insensitive in wearing a Nazi uniform to a party. The incident sent Britain into an uproar and with many letters to the editor. Surely, he had heard of Nazis at some time in his life. It didn't register or present a memory of horror to him.

Too often experiences that need to be remembered are not presented in the light needed to emphasize the wrongness of such thinking. Over time, they are forgotten.

There has crept into the language of education and news a kind of minimizing of past events.

Scrawler there is no better cook than an Jewish Mum. Bubble tells us about her cooking regularly and has us salivating! The food she makes is very healthy also. My dear old friend used to bring in very tasty dishes too for lunch. I think maybe its the adaption of European cooking to Kosher that makes it so delightful. Do you think so Bubble?

I know that I first smelt olive oil in the pan when I was five and nobody in NZ used olive oil for anything other than medicinal purposes except our Jewish neighbour. (and our Uncle Jack and his family) It was decades later that Kiwis became addicted to olive oil for cooking. When we weren't used to the smell it seemed very strong and now I never notice it.

Unleavened bread is undergoing a renaissance too with many of us.

Carolyn

of Prince Harry wearing the Nazi uniform to a party.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4170083.stm

Third in line to be king.

How soon we forget.

Rich

I suspect there is a higher correlation between education and religious laxity than between ignorance and religious laxity. Or to put it alternatively, there is a lower correlation between education and religious excess than between ignorance and religious excess. The kind of education I have in mind includes classes in critical thinking as I indicated in an earlier post. Certainly, I was not referring to education for the ministry.

I also think we are all aware that the Soviets were not very alert to the evils of anti-semitism. What is needed here is a contribution to advance the concept that education is a method of attacking a serious social problem. If the solution does not lie in education we are condemned to repeat over and over again the errors of past centuries.

I just finished a detective story whose plot dealt with "conversos" in the American Southwest. "Conversos" are Spanish Jews who converted to Christianity, usually under duress, and, in many cases continued to practice Judaism secretly. Aparently many of these families eventually arrived in the American Southwest.

According to the detective story, many of these families over the generations had forgotten that they were Jewish. They continued to observe odd family rituals, such as on Friday evening closing all the curtains and lighting candles where no one outside could see them. But they did this because their grandparents had, and had lost all sense of what the ritual meant.

Here is an arcticle I found that mentions some, not all, of this:

CONVERSOS

Claire; You find the text boring because you prefer information presented visually but visual narrative has limitations as well. If one reads a story in Life Magazine one finds that pictures carry much of the message but prose must be added to give the tale cohesion and continuity. Comic book versions of prose stories such as Tarzan or Flash Gordon must be implemented with diction bubbles to carry the story line.

I think the Durants could have built in more visual imagery to enhance the story line and to be more attractive to people with left brain or is it right brain requirements.

The last thing in the world we want is for you to be bored. When Mal returns she will bring us more imagery to enliven our discussion.

JoanK; It is a wonder that "converso" descendants in New Mexico did not lose all vestiges of ancestral Jewish customs. In the early days the Inquisition reached into Mexico,South and Central America, and Southwest America. Columbus probably brought some of it with him and I think it was present in Spanish owned Louisiana. The threat was very real to Jews in that part of the world so I would think Conversos would hide that part of their heritage very deep which would make the retrieval process difficult.

In the ninteenth and early twentieth centuries Jews also had to contend with organizations like the KKK which would have forced them to bury their ancestry even deeper.

Justin

Your faith in education is understandable but the bulk of education today and in the past is slanted more towards indoctrination than sharpening any possibility towards critical thinking. You and I would delight in a system that enlarged human perceptual and analytical capability but there are many today who would not be particularly appreciative of an inteligent and critical public. The very wealthy advertisig industry delights in a public that can be manipulated and I doubt that government is very far behind in this atttude. A docile and compliant citizenry is very much to the advantage of an administration that would carry out policies of doubtful worth.

Carolyn, good cooking has nothing to do with kosher food. I found that it was more of a challenge making meat tasty after it had been though the kosherize process: salt makes it very tough to chew.

Joan, there are plenty conversos descendants in South America. Not long ago I discovered "relatives" in Uruguay - with the same unusual family name as my husband - who were all but Jewish. Through questionning, we found that both the great grand parents came from the same town in Turkey. They too had some unexplained customs in the family, like putting playing cards on the table after the main week end meal. Similarly, the same name is found on the memory wall (in Wahigton D.C>?) as having been killed in service. This soldier was not Jewish either. I would not be surprised if it the great grand Papu was a converso as well.

I can remember reading somewhere that in the 1800s and early 1900s t quite a few Jewish immigrants to Britain converted to Church of England and changed their names because of the persecution that abounded then. Socially Jews were ostracised not being able to join golf clubs, mens clubs etc. It did not matter how wealthy they were or whether they owned a bank they were excluded. My Dad told me about this also. He was speaking about the 1930's and there was still the same attitude by many institutions.

Carolyn

The phone lines around here were off for a couple of days but, as you can see, I am back.
MeriJo has an excellent point. Please do not ask her any questions about Catholicism unless you do it by private email. We are currently discussing Science Among the Jews.

Robby

"Profiting in some measure from Islamic science, but also recapturing their own traditions of the healing art, the Jews of this period wrote outstanding treatises on medicine and became the most esteemed physicians in Christian Europe.
"Isaac Israeli (c. 855-c.955) acquired such fame as an ophthamologist in Egypt that he was appointed physician to the Aghlabid court at Qairwan. His medical works, translated from Arabic into Hebrew and Latin, were acclaimed as classics throughout Europe. They were used as textbooks at Salermo and paris and were quoted, after 700 years of life, in Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy (1621).
"Tradition describes Isaac as indifferent to wealth, an obstinate bachelor, and a centenarian.
"Probably conetemporary with him was Asaf ha-Jehudi, the obscure author of a recently discovered manuscript reckoned to be the oldest extant medical work in Hebrew, and remarkable for its teaching that the blood circulates through the arteries and the veins. Had he surmised the function of the heart, he would have completely anticipated Harvey.
"In Egypt, after the arrival of Maimonides (1165), the medical art was dominated by Jewish practitioners and texts.
"Abu al-Fada of Cairo wrote the principal ophthamological treatise of the twelfth century, and al-Kuhin al-Atar composed (c.1275) a pharmacopoeia still used in the Moslem world.The Jewish physicians of southern Italy and Sicily served as one medium through which Arabic medicine entered Salerno.
"Shabbathal ben Abraham (913-70), called Donnolo, born near Otranto, was captued by Saracens, studied Arabic medicine at Palermo, and then returned to prctice in Italy.
"Benvenutus Grassus, a Jerusalem Jew, studied at Salerno, taught there and at Montpellier, and wrote a Practica oculorium (c.1150) which Islam and Christendom alike accepted as the definitive treatise on disease of the eye.
"224 years after its publication it was chosen as the first book to be printed on its theme."
Your comments, please, on Jewish physicians?

Robby

Justin,

I hope that what I say will be clear, I'm not totally sure because it is just beginning to formulate in my own mind.

Religious fanaticism, or as you say, excess, seems to me to incubate best in low economic environments. Those environments probably have low education levels, as well, but I think it is poverty that drives religious interest not lack of education.

As an example, the Catholic Church has great difficulty, these days, recruiting clergy in first world nations. The bulk of their new recruits come from the third world. Are we saying that these new recruits are driven by ignorance, or is it more likely that many seek a better lifestyle under the wing of the Catholic institution?

Education, itself, is a relative term. We have to be careful when we say a group needs to be better educated. By whose textbook, or agenda do we undertake this education? When the Kamer Rouge (sp) took over Cambodia their first charge was to properly "educate" the masses.

Rich

Jewish boys were encouraged to go into legal and medical professions.. . . "my son the doctor" or "my son the lawyer" were common words of pride from doting jewish mamas. It assumed higher education. . . . Claire

if it weren't for the linkages this discussion would be as dull as the book. . . . Claire

Thank you Claire, for an honest assessment on how we make you feel.

Claire: there is still this preference for Jewish children becoming doctors, or at least there was in my youth. Part of it, I think was coming from an environment where other professions were often closed to Jews. I never thought that it might be because of the rich medical heritage of the Jews.

My husband was pushed to be a doctor by his parents, who had very little formal education themselves. The good part was they were willing to make considerable financial sacrifices to see that he was a doctor. The bad part was that, when he had absolutely no interest in medicine and wanted to be a mathematician, they were appalled. When he got his PhD in mathematics, his mother said "Well, you can't take my temperature, but at least you're a Doctor".

She didn't live to see my-daughter-the-doctor. (When Jody declared that she wanted to be a doctor, my husband was appalled, and tried to persuade her to be a physicist instead. Oh, well.)

Should we have expected any less from Jewish Physicians? The Middle Eastern cultures being the cradle of civilization had a handle on science long before the other cultures. I suspect the Romans learnt a lot from their occupancy of Middle Eastern countries regarding the sciences including medicine.

carolyn

My mothers extended family were Scottish. The Scots also had a great respect for education and males in our extended family were encouraged to be engineers, academics or doctors. My second cousin was put through medical school at great expense and personal sacrifice by his not very well off parents. I don't think the Jews were alone in their ambitions for their children. I think it was a generational thing. I don't know if in the period we are talking about in Durants Age of Faith parents would have been so keen for their kids to take up medicine. Being a Physician then did not have the prestige the profession had in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

carolyn

It may be noted that Scots had such a reputation for engineering that many steamships employed Scottish engineers (as well did as the starship Enterprise).

the inventor of the steam engine, itself, Scottsman James Watt.

Rich

Rich7: Your thought about poverty contributing to religious excess strikes me as one worthy of further thought. Young men in poverty may well find economic well being in the clergy. It's a lifetime job with a roof and three meals per day provided by a grateful faithful. A laity blessed by poverty may also be more prone to look for a better life in the hereafter than an economically viable laity.

The education I am thinking of is not indoctrination but rather the acquisition of tools- thinking tools.

In the eleventh-fourteenth century Christian Europe relied upon relics and the laying-on-of-hands as a means of healing the sick. Scapulas containing images of patron saints were worn by the sick to ward off illness. The importance of a saint was determined by how many cures his bones effected. The bones of Thomas Beckett were very productive. It was to visit the bones of Thomas at Canterbury that Chaucer's Pilgrims set out on their journey away from the plague.

I say this because it was the princpal reason Jewish physicians were denied access to patients among the Christian laity. The medieval clerical hierarchy on the other hand recognized the benefits brought by Jewish rational medicine and availed themselves of Jewish scientific talent.

Joan K.

Thank you for the link on the "Conversos". It is very comprehensive, and I am sorry I could read just a part of it. I shall need to go back to it.

Just a thought of mine: There is no doubt that the Middle East surged ahead of Europe in the sciences. The Jews with their centuries of learning and seeking learning gathered much medical information in time. There were those who developed a deeper interest in the workings of the body. The early Jews also recorded much - all of which could be preserved and passed on to future generations. The Jews, too, had an ethic of helping others, of fostering personal care and hygiene, and appeared to have a stronger leaning toward scientific solutions other than folklore in caring for illness.

It is fascinating, really, to imagine how the mobility of people in that era could bring news of other countries and other peoples and carry back information in medicine and even a Jewish physician or two to the newer unexplored regions of Europe.

I think it just followed that Palermo in Sicily, Salerno just up from the island on the western shore of Southern Italy would become sites of learning. Bologna just west of the Adriatic coast near the central coast of Italy also developed a university and a well-known medical school. It seems as though there was a steady and positive flow northward towards the center of Europe from the Middle East bringing Jewish medicine and their methods of treatment. The Jews came to be looked upon as masters in their field, I think. Their reputation still is so.

Luke, one of the four evangelists, a writer of some of the New Testament text,and one familiar with both Greek and Hebrew, though not generally considered a Jew, was a physician.

"Rabbinical schools, especially in southern France, gave courses in medicine, partly to provide rabbis with a secular income.
"Jewish physicians trained in the Hebrew academy at Montpelier helped to develop the famous Montpellier school of medicine. The appointment of a Jew as regent of the faculty in 1300 drew upon his people the wrath of the medical authorities in the University of Paris. The Montpellier school was forced to close its doors to Jews (1301) and the Hebrew physicians of the city shared in the banishment of the Jews from France in 1306.
"By this time, however, Christian medicine had been revolutionized by Jewish and Moslem example and influence. The Semitic practioners had long since put behind them the theory of sickness as 'possession' by demons and the success of their rational diagnosis and therapy had weakened the belief of the people in the efficacy of relics and other supernatural means of cure.
"The monks and secular clergy whose abbeys and churches housed relics and drew plgrims found it hard to accept this revolution.
"The Church condemned the intimate reception of Jewish doctors into Christian homes. She suspected that these men had more physic than faith and she dreaded their influence upon sick minds.
"In 1246 the Council of Beziers forbade Christians to employ Jewish physicians. In 1267 the Council of Vienna forbade Jewish physicians to treat Christians.
"Such prohibitions did not prevent some prominent Christians from availing themselves of Jewish medical skill.
"Pope Boniface VIII, suffering from an eye ailment, called in Isaac ben Mordecai. Raymond Lully complained that every monastery had a Jewish physician. A papal legate was shocked to find that this was also the fate of many nunneries. Chgristian kings of Spain enjoyed Jewish medical care down to the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella.
"Sheshet Benveniste of Barcelona, physician to King James I of Aragon (1213-76) wrote the chief gynecological treatise of the time.
"The Jews lost their ascendancy in the medical practice of Christendom only when Christian universities, in the thirteenth century, adopted rational medicine."
So there they were whether the Church officially wanted them there or not.

Robby

Honey, I'm home

We just arrived home after an unexpectedly grueling session. Right away the surgeon told us Dorian's working too hard. He suggested a nursing type facility for me.

Then he came in with a resident MD who removed the staples from my abdomen. I have an infection in "the wound" that had to be taken care of right away.

Then a urologist came in and told me the severe, sporadic bladder pain can be stopped by taking an anti-spasmodic drug. I'm glad about that.

Then two nurses came in to examine the colostomy. All is well on that score.

Meanwhile, my back objected to the table I was on -- LOUDLY -- Finally, everybody finished what he/she was doing and I was able to get back in the wheelchair.

The wheelchair van was an hour late this morning, and we waited an hour for it to pick us up at the hospital and bring us home.

The way things ended up, I won't be going into a nursing facility, a nurse will come here every day. Other provisions have been made. I have to eat a high protein diet, so I'll get strong very fast.

It was a beautiful morning. While waiting for the van, Dorian pushed me down near the garden we saw them plant when I was in the hospital. Yellow lilies and multi-colored begonias. It's really very pretty.

Mal

From Robby#30.

That's a peculiar thing about Christianity. The thinking of the clergy tends to be dichotomous. On the one hand,the clergy are people with personal interests and on the other they are concerned about maintaining a position-a position that requires constraints upon the laity. The two do not always coincide or as Jan would express it, congruent. In this case the clergy hires Jewish doctors to care for their personal needs but denies that right to the laity because it fears an erosian of faith. I have not seen the dichotomy as clearly as this before but I am sure it existed and I expect to find many other examples as we go through the "Age of Faith."

Mal; You must feel somewhat like a specimen when the doctors stand about looking you over, each with a different area of interest.Be sure you eat the right goodies so you will be strong and able to return to the fray. I do so look forward to you coming back to us. How many Jewish doctors do you have?

What is the connection between education and CLASS?

Robby

Looking at non-Jewish civilization one pattern seems to stand out. In general, Jewish culture seems to foster the development of useful capabilities in medicine and finance and science and repeatedly the non-Jews have shot themelves in the foot by their fixation with anti-semitism. This pattern appears throughout the centuries even down to the latest Holocaust in Germany where the Nazis divested themselves of the very scientists who could have given them the atomic bomb. It seems that there is an essential stupdity in Christianity that is very persistent. In Kansas there is a strong Christian movement to throw out evolution which is the central element in organizing biological theory and the current argument that a few stem cells with the potential to become human is more important than fully developed conscious humans. There is no Christian concern with military "collateral damage" but hysteria about a few cells in a petri dish. These values strike me as totally insane.

Justin: Your #32

It is important, I think, to place these events in the historical period in which they occurred. This is the end of the thirteenth century.

Jewish physicians had found their way into France, and were recognized as being good physicians in that they looked at the body to diagnose ailments. The clergy, at that time was made up of individuals who had knowledge in a still incipient Christian philosophy. They looked at differences with limited knowledge. They really did not know much about Jews. They knew even less about the body. They were more aware of superstition, and aware of cures having occurred from praying to the saints.

But, some were perceptive. - (And oh! how much of the world's progress depended then and even now on perception) - Depending on their life's experiences some perceived that Jewish physicians knew what they were doing. This fact, certainly, made its way known to even the hierarchy of Rome. It is no wonder that a priest or monk hesitantly would recommend to a bishop or Pope, even, that perhaps they should call in a Jewish physician, to attend to the Holy Father's eye ailment.

Jan - Very good post. I am a Christian and killing by military might does not have any place in my belief system.Neither does killing for political gain have my support.(Terrorism) It is insane and wrong. There is another thing I cannot get my head round. Christians who are absolutely rabid about continuing with the death penalty. It beggars belief. Will mans inhumanity to man ever stop?

Why nothing ever gets solved and prejudice continues because people never stop to really get to know someone of a different faith or a different culture . Once you do have a relationship with someone who is different from yourself ethnically or by their faith the difference fades away and you realise that everyone is the same inside. I think my my two grandaughters are so lucky because they go to a school where 180 different nationalities are represented. The Governor General visited last year and remarked in her speech she had never been to another school with such a wide range of ethnic groups.

Every year they have an ethnic festival where the kids dress in national costume and take ethnic food to share. Its a sight to behold - the kids parade with banners showing their country of origin. Bubble - we even have two Israeli families that have been here about three years.

The school is a middle class school and has many out of zone pupils. They fight to get into the school.

To eradicate persecution and prejudice it has to be a two way effort. A reaching out from both sides.

Carolyn

Jan Sand: Your #35

I think there needs to be some distinction here. It does appear from the standpoint of medieval history that the Christian anti-semitism of the times was in stark contrast to the accomplishments of the Jews in medicine and science,then, for example.

But, to bring that characteristic suddenly forward into the twentieth century to the horrors of Naziism is not necessarily true.

There has been an element in society that appears to assign to different cultures and religions pejorative opinions. Given enough members in such an element produces a society such as that which accepted Naziism, especially with such a fiery, negative leader as Hitler to inflame them.

This element also encourages and supports anti-semitism.

As for the Christians who are supporting a notion of creationism as opposed to evolution, I think this thought began long ago when the literal interpretation of the Bible became rather strongly a part of some Christian denominations. It's a pretty entrenched thought and I don't know what would change it.

The controversy over the use of embryonic stem cell research has not been too clearly presented to the public. This happens when the media gets a bit of news and runs with it.

The stem cells from the umbilical cord and the adult stem cells have been found to be useful, but the embryonic stem cells have not produced anything yet because the argument is that there are not enough of them available. Also, there is some question of the safety of embryonic stem cells in the human body. And there is some question as to whether these embryonic stem cells over which there is such a furor do contain the necessary properties to produce a human being. There are too many unanswered questions.

Yes, JAN that's telling them!

It has surprised me how the physical sciences have fared over the centuries. The Greeks had developed a marvelous understanding of the physical Universe, that was stopped in its tracks, if not lost almost completely, by the Roman military machinations.

The study of mathematics, but not physics, was continued in Asia and the Middle East before the former was passed on to Europe, where both disciplines amalgamated and fired the imagination of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.

At this time the Jews, it seems, were busy developing knowledge of the medical sciences, and bequeathed that understanding to the 'West'. But in this period of their development, they seem to have had very little interest in Physics.

This remained so, until the beginning of the 20th Century, when for 50 years or more, persons of the Jewish race, especially those from Central and Eastern Europe, took a leading part, as Jan has remarked, in giving humanity a completely different view of the Universe.

I refer here to the Gravitational theory of Einstein, and also the development of Quantum mechanics and Nuclear physics. It is surprising how many Jews were involved in that development.

Has anyone here a view of what could have sparked a racial group to be in the forefront of all this ? Was it just chance, or is there something deeper involved ? ++ Trevor

MeriJo

One of the very crucial points about working with embryonic stem cells that seems not to be within general understanding is that organ transplantation normally done, even with relatively compatable matches, requires that the receiver undertake a lifelong regimen of immunosuppressive drugs which makes the patient very vulnerable to pathological viral and bacterial attack. If the organ could be developed from embryonic stem cells developed from the patient's own cells there would be a perfect tissue match and no need for immunosuppressive drugs. This is a very viable and possible line of research and is absolutely forbidden by religious insanities.

Crikey Trevor - What a question! I don't think it has an answer.

Carolyn

MariJo: It's good to have you in here. I think you are very generous in your treatment of clergy who forbid the use of Jewish doctors to the laity but enjoy the services of such when occasion demands.

I think you bend over backwards to see evil in Stem cell research where there is nothing but hope for the good of mankind. Remember Galileo.Perhaps your need for new parts is not as great as that of some others.

Trevor: You refer to a Jewish "race". I wonder if we are not dealing here with a religion and perhaps, a culture rather than a "race". I am not overly familiar with the term race in an anthropological sense. On the one hand I think it has something to do with a group of people with a common ancestor but on the other hand it may be applied to people with a given physical characteristic, such as skin color. Are there any anthropologists in the discussion?

Justin not an anthropologist but the course part of a liberal arts and science major at UCLA we studied categories and race was broader than that use of it as in S emetic. . . meaning arabs and Egyptions as well as Jews especially Sephardic ones who had Moors in their background.

The current use of the word RACE usually is accompanied with negative intent. It's almost a pergorative. . . . claire

Discussions I have seen by scientists discard the term "race" altogether as the genetic variation within a so-called race is greater than that between individuals classified as different races. Obviously there are certain characteristics of individual people that identify their family or their place of origin to a degree but science has not found this a valid term. Jews themselves have had long discussions as to what might determine who is and who is not Jewish but any visit to Israel would disclose the variety of individuals involved.

Officially, if a person's mother was accepted as Jewish then a person is considerd Jewish but the variety of mothers is large.

Yes. I know that 'Jews' are not a race, but I couldn't think of any other group noun that would serve my purpose. I couldn't have called them Israeli, as Israel did not exist officially until 1948.

A 'Jew' is a person who belongs to a certain religion, I think. But then, there are those who do not belong to the Jewish religion, but never the less call themselves Jews.

At the same time I know of 'Jews' who react violently if called Semitic, as they claim they are not of the same race as Palestinians.

"It's all the biggest mix up,
that you have ever seen.
Me mother she was Orange, and me father he was green...

+++ Trevor

Trevor I know I am a real mongrel with five different nationalities in me. English, Scottish, German, Spanish and Irish. Now you know what is wrong with me! Looks like the celts win as there is two celtic races in my ancestry.

Carolyn

CAROLYN I think I am more pure than you. I have only two 'races' in my makeup. German and Irish. LOL++ Trevor

Terrific exchanges here! Said by a DL who is Italian-Swedish with a middle name taken from his Dutch heritage. Let us examine the concluding paragraph of Science among the Jews before moving onto Jewish Philosophy.
"For so mobile and scattered a people the Jews contributed little to the science of geography.
"Nevertheless the outstanding travelers of the twelfth century were two Jews -- Perachya of Ratisbon and Benjamin of Tudela -- who wrote valuable Hebrew narratives of their journeys through Europe and the Near East.
"Benjamin left Saragossa in 1160, leisurely visited Barcelona, Marseilles, Genoa, Pisa, Rome, Salerno, Brindisi, Otranto, Corfu, Constantinople, the Aegean Isles, Antioch, every important city in Palestine, and Baalhek, Damuscus, Baghdad, and Persia.
"He returned by ship through the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea to Egypt, Sicily, and Italy, and thence overland to Spain. He reached home in 1173, and died soon afterward.
"His main interest was in the Jewish communities. But he described with fair accuracy and objectivity the geographic and ethnic features of each country on his route. His account is less fascinating, but probably more reliable, than the reports made by Marco Polo a century later.
"He was translated into nearly all European languges and remained until our time a favorite book with the Jews."
Robby

so many posts, so little time!

About Montpellier and the jewish physicians there. The University and Medical School there has a most interesting museum. In one place they have rows and rows of jars containing so many "aberration foetus"ses with 2 heads, three arms, head for leg, etc. further on they have display cases containing surgeon tools of great precision with engraved on the handles the name of the user, most often in Arabic and Hebrew characters. Some are older than the Inquisition. There are treatises of medicine authored by those revered physicians. It would be a most worthwile visit if you chance to be there.

I have never seen a Jew resenting being called Semitic. We know that the Arabs are our cousins!
But there is prejudice even among Jews and Sephardic Jews think themselves superior. Even among Sephardic, you have the "S-T" (Sephardi Tahor) which means Pure Sephardic. LOL
Of course the Eshkenazi also believe the same for themselves and the descendants of such or such rabbinical household is revered as a prince.

Who knows if it is a race, a religion, a chosen People or what. We are what we are.

Read about BENJAMIN OF TUDELA.

Robby

Comments about Benjamin's BOOK OF TRAVELS.

Robby

I wish I could have joined Binjamin de Tudela in his travels!

Justin:

I don't think I am being either generous with the clergy or bending over backwards re the stem cells. The embryonic stem cells are unproven - fact! the adult and the umbilical cord ones are! - fact! According to recent news I read.

As for the clergy, I am not being generous. It is history. The clergy were not all learned in the thirteenth century. There were just a few who had read extensively of the writings that existed. Information was in the process of being collected and absorbed.

I'm Italian - both sides - all the way back to the sixteenth century according to a genealogical document the family has. And I have fair skin (suffer in the sunshine) and have green eyes - so I am not the stereotypical Italian.

Also, I studied history throughout school into college from the Sisters of St. Joseph of Carondelet from whose college, Mt. St. Mary's, I graduated in Los Angeles and whose college for the last few years has joined in scholastic cooperation with the University of Judaism nearby. Times have changed just since I graduated in 1943. Also had a couple of Jesuits and a Paulist and a Diocesan priest along with a visiting professor, Dr. Kramer, from U.C.L.A. at different times during the high school and college years as teachers. Post-graduate work at Fresno State College - now a California State University.

I am also 82. You folks know just about all about me!

Although my ancestry is Jewish I do not feel particularly attached to either the Jewish religion or the Jewish culture. I have spent some time in Israel and met Jews and Arabs and found both congenial and worth talking to There are of course, cultural differences and I have seen open arrogance amongst a few Israelis but I do not generalize from that. The Arabs obviousy also have an element that disturbs me but they are discreet in voicing their opinions.

But looking at Jewish history as presented through the centuries I have seen repeated instances of totally horrible and what should be called inhuman actions inflicted upon Jewish communities and individuals. I have nowhere seen any instance of the Jewish community doing anything but contributing knowledge and culture and wealth to the community in general. Does this onesided response to the presence of Jews say anything significant about Christian and Muslim cultures?

is a phrase which almost does it for me. German background on both sides with maybe some other countries thrown in. we are all mongrels when it comes to mixing of our genes. my sister was blond and blue eyed. I'm dark with hazel eyes my parents were dark with brown eyes and so are a lot of other people.

I feel Jewish because of the emphasis placed upon it and the suffering of the "chosen" folks. It means to me that I cannot abandon my cultural heritage even though I can't accept any religion. SECULAR says some of it but not all. We are a mysterious people . . . . . . I don't really know what I am. I just FEEL what I am. . .a vassal formed by history. . . . Claire

"I feel Jewish because of the emphasis placed upon it and the suffering of the "chosen" folks. It means to me that I cannot abandon my cultural heritage even though I can't accept any religion. "

Very perceptive, Claire and I agree.

Even though I have so many different cultures in my background I was brought up in the clannish Scottish culture as a child,. However when I grew up I became a real Kiwi. We too have a unique culture I feel. I know I am a real kiwi because its the haka that now gives me shivers up my spine and not the bagpipes. My kids are definately kiwis. Even when living overseas they were still kiwis and met with other kiwis on special days and when homesick would sing Po Kare kare ana and other songs unique to our homeland to make themselves feel close to home.

Our Jewish community is quite small but they do have their own Jewish college here in Auckland for children from 5 upwards where they can retain their religious beliefs in their education system. The younger generation is not forced to marry only within their community and there has been a lot of interfaith marriage in my childrens generation. This happens amongst even the prominent Jewish families. My son went to several weddings of this kind.

Carolyn

Comment re Education and Class:

Education does give a polish and an added positive dimension to one. It may or may not bring about a concept of "class", meaning a well-mannered, appropriate and especially courteous behavior for one. It is possible, I think, for one to have an excellent and extensive education and not have "class." Individuals from limited circumstances both educationally and monetarily can have class. It seems to be innate and coming from the individual's family customs and traditions.

MeriJo: We know that embyonic cells have universal application ie: they can be used to produce any body part. Clearly the work in this area is incomplete. That's what research is all about. The adult cells,as the South Koreans discovered, may turn out to be most productive, because they are a patient's own cells.

People our age can not really hope to benefit from work in the area of stem cells but our children and grand children will benefit if we are smart enough to allow the work to proceed.

Jan Sand:

In your #41 you wrote: If the organ could be developed from embryonic stem cells developed from the patient's own cells there would be a perfect tissue match and no need for immunosuppressive drugs.

How can this be?

Justin:

I think there is no objection to the use and study of umbilical and adult stem cells by any religion. There is some question about the embryonic stem cells - as to their being mature enough, part of a living person (I have heard that these embryonic cells that are planned to be used could not develop into a human being anyway.) It'll be good when all the facts are learned. I feel badly for people who have young relatives with illnesses that such a procedure would help cure.

Robby; Thanks for the Amazon .com listing for Ben of Tudela. I have ordered the book and will pass it on to my great grandson who is eleven. We will both read it.

Embryonic stem cells can be created from a person's normal cells by transplanting the nucleus of a normal cell into an egg cell whose original nucleus has been removed and then stimulating the combination to start the process towards becoming a blastocyst, the first stage of an embryo. The cells produced will be identical genetically to the donor of the nucleus and the stem cells so produced can theoretically be induced to make any organ that can then be placed into the donor of the nucleus with a perfect tissue match. Using stem cells fram any other source would be useless for a perfect tissue match.

I think it's pretty neat that a number of you described yourselves in detail. We have become a family here and this helps us to become a bit closer. Of course I have been DL for so long that most of you are already aware that I am handsome, brilliant, and definitely classy. (For those who really want to know about me, just Google my name and you will learn more about me than you really want to know.)
Shall we get on with the next section?

Robby

The Rise of Jewish Philosophy

"The life of the mind is a composition of two forces:-the necessity to believe in order to live, and the necessity to reason in order to advance.
"In ages of poverty and chaos the will to believe is paramount, for courage is the one thing needful.
"In ages of wealth the intellectual powers come to the fore as offering preferment and progress.
"Consequently a civilization passing from poverty to wealth tends to develop a struggle between reason and faith -- a 'warfare of science with theology.'
"In this conflict philosophy, dedicated to seeing life whole, usually seeks a reconciliation of opposites, a mediating peace, with the result that it is scorned by science and suspected by theology.
"In an age of faith, where hardship makes life unbearable without hope, philosophy inclines to religion, uses reason to defend faith, and becomes a disguised theology.
"Among the three faiths that divided white civilization in the Middle Ages this was least true of Islam, which had most wealth -- truer of Christendom, which had less -- truest of Judaism, which had least.
"And Jewish philosophy ventured from faith chiefly in the prosperous Jewry of Moslem Spain."
Duant gives us some deep theories here to chew on and discuss.

Robby

Jan Sand:

Thank you for that explanation. I shall save it.

I have been re-reading the Heading -- 5000 postings so far in just this volume alone. And only two-fifths of the way through it. WOW!!

Robby

Very interesting Robby. There is much of History being relived in the three main faiths if we look around the world. They are becoming more extreme in their beliefs.

The extreme beliefs have come about because of a great uncertainty people feel about the precariousness of our present civilisation.

This morning I have been listening to an interview with a Psychoanalyst who works with ethnic groups to resolve conflict in a peaceful manner. One success story he has had is in Estonia with ethnic Russians and Estonians. Yeltsin was involved in this and the Leader of Estonia. The whole process took 7 yrs and is now a fait accomplit. It gives one hope to hear of this man and his colleagues doing this work which has largely gone unreported. The Psychoanalyst is a Turkish Cypriot so he was brought up in a land of conflict.

Maybe this type of solution could be applied to religious conflict.

Carolyn

Here is a brief history of JEWISH PHILOSOPHY.

Robby

Robby; You asked the same question a little earlier in relation to poverty. I think we concurred with Durant but we talked about a polarized society and did not think of the question in terms of a continuum. As a society moves toward one end or the other, a blend exists. If the direction of society is toward wealth then rational thinking will dominate at some point and if in the opposite direction then superstition will prevail at some point in the progression.

When Clinton left the White House the deficit was gone, government functioned under a surplus, taxes would have come down and people would have had more spendable income. If we and Durant are right religion would have diminished in power. We know now that a big deficit and higher taxes for the little guy means less income and more religion in society.

I read the short essay by Philo and found it not particularly profound but merely the expression of a personal attitude towards the necessary activities of life. He disdains pleasure and finds the things that life demands a travail to the point of what seems to me to be edging towards psychosis. I have many things in life that are necessary to accomplish and the better I perform these activities and the deeper I comprehend what they are about the more delight I gain in their accomplishment and the better they are done.

I found the first Durant statement cryptic and not particularly revealing. What is it that I must believe in order to live? Is it that my reasoning has some validity?

There seems to me an inescapable dichotomy between science and religion. Science clings to the faith that the operation of the universe is discernable to human reason and that there are natural laws which cannot be violated. Religion posits that the world is the invention of an incomprehensible intelligence and there are things which will forever remain beyond the capability of humanity to understand. It also accepts magic which is the violation of natural law at the whim of the superbeing. These violations are labeled miracles.

Jan - Your opinion of Philos essay is formed by your own belief system. I found it quite fascinating.

As for magic there has been several cases of so called magic performed in our own family and I have been witness to two of them. Doctors also witnessed at least one of them at the exact time the incident occurred.

Robby you could spend all day in the site you just posted, I have bookmarked it to peruse fully when I have more time.

Carolyn

Carolyn

It is evident from your post that you believe in magic. This throws reason out the window. Either you believe all events are amenable to reason and can be understood or you accept that some things are unexplainable. You nicely illustrate my statements.

Durant says that science and religion meet in "warfare", and suggests that philosophy in attempting to reconcile the two incurs suspicion from theology and is scorned by science.

This is quite a premise.

I see religion as a recipe for living completely apart from science - a recipe which may be improved by science, but not a part of science necessarily.

Science may arouse the suspicion of theology if it proposes a notion that undermines natural law and sets its findings as acceptable. Science, by its very nature, will discover things that are revolutionary in thought. The scientist must be agile and correct in presenting a legitimate argument as to whether this new idea or discovery is useful in life. This is my opinion - and may certainly be wrong.

Because I missed Maimonides, I read the essay of his re man needing to choose the golden mean.

Although in the end fundamental philosophy penetrates everything, the principles of philosopy emerge in different forms in human life. One form is a system of understanding the unverse. Another is a scaffold for determining the behavior of humans towards each other. Religion proposes that there is something essentially different between humans and all other things alive or not. Science has gradually revealed that all things, human or otherwise, are subject to the same general system of laws.

Forces which control pragmatic activities in war and business in the end are forced to conform to laws of activity treating humans the same as any other element concerned with that activity. In war, men and materials are utilized and sacrificed to gain a desired end and business is realistic enough to behave the same way or will cease to survive.

An overlying system of morals sometimes tempers this surrender to reality to prevent extreme horrors but nature has no essential morality and some horrors are unavoidable. Religion tries to soften these necessities by proposing that there is a moral basis to nature. I would like to think so but I have seen no evidence in that direction.

Jan there are some miracles that doctors cannot explain. There are some things we don't understand but they happen. I could give personal observations of these things but this is not the place.

Carolyn

I have no doubts that there are some events that doctors currently cannot explain. But what you are proposing is that they are unexplainable which is something radically different. You are saying that the human mind is not equal to the challenge of the unknown. I am too optimistc to agree.

seem to be gender specific designating women as a source of pleasure for man as well as for herself making up for the difficulties she faces in her domestic role, and the pleasure than man takes repays him for the difficulties he experiences in performing his function of providing for all. So pleasure binds the two together and makes up for their traval which is natural to each genders role in life? A small thought but then life was much simpler then. . . . Claire

Much of Philo is a blend of Hellenism and Scripture. He taps Plotinus more than Plato but by introducing the Logos and tacking it onto the First Principle of Plotinus he gave Christianity much of what we find in the Gospel according to John-The Great Fourth Gospel. In John the Logos is identified with Christ. Philo talks in terms of the Logos as First Principle. The opening lines of the Fourth Gospel refer to the Logos and are reminiscent of Philo. " In the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was God.

I fed "Logos" to Google and got such a strange variety of sites with no reference to philosophy that I wonder if there's a site where I can discover something about this philosopical body.

MeriJo:-You didn't miss Maimonides. We will speaking about him shortly.

Robby

"Medieval Jewish philosophy had two sources -- Hebrew religion and Moslem thought.
"Most Jewish thinkers conceived of religion and philosophy as similar in content and result -- differing only in method and format. What religion taught as divinely revealed thought, philosophy would teach as rationally demonstrated truth.
"Most Jewish thinkers from Saadia to Maimonides made this attempt in a Moslem milieu, derived their knowledge of Greek philosophy from Arabic translations and Moslem commentries and wrote in Arabic for Moslems as well as Jews.
"Just as Ashari turned against the Mutazilites the weapon of reason, and saved the orthodoxy of Islam, so Saadia, who left Egypt for Babylonia in the very year (915) of Ashari's conversion from skepticism, saved Hebrew theology by his polemic industry and skill. Saadia followed not only the methods of the Moslem mutakallimun, but even the details of their arguments.
"Saadia's victory had the same effect in Eastern Judaism as al-Ghazali's in Eastern Islam. It combined with political disorder and economic decline to smother Hebrew philosophy in the Orient.
The rest of the story belongs to Africa and Spain. At Qairwan Isaac found time amid his medical practice and writing to compose some influential philosophical works.
"His Essay on Definitions gave several terms to scholastic logic. His treatise On the Elements introduced Aristotle's Physics to Hebrew thought. His Book of Soul and Spirit replaced the creation story of Genesis with a Neoplatonist scheme of progressive emanations ('splendors') from God to the material world.
"Here was onc source of the Cabala.
Rather deep here for those who have not studied philosophy. Gives some of us a chance to rest our minds and some others to dig into the "reason."
May I suggest that we not involve ourselves with Maimonides at the moment because Durant talks about him a bit later in detail.

Robby

If you want to learn more about Saadia, HERE is the place.

Robby

More about CLASS -- this time related to nationality.

Robby

It is amusing that Saadia even then struggled with the contradiction between an absolutely powerful God and the sense that we each have that we can choose our actions. Many people today still struggle with that and are disturbed with whatever answer they settle on.

"The life of the mind is a composition of two forces:-the necessity to believe in order to live, and the necessity to reason in order to advance".

Unlike Jan, I find this very insightful. I think it summerizes about two/thirds of the discussion here of the past few weeks.

Jan Sand:

I should probably respond after I read Saardia, but I am addressing your phrase "struggling with an extremely powerful God" and the will to perform our own actions.

If you think about it human beings think of God that way, true, but do not realize that God isn't going to interfere with our actions - even when asked.

If God did then it would mean that God had not created a perfect being, one that could determine one's own destiny. The whole notion of God would not be, I think.

"Wisdom

What is CLASS?

Class never runs scared. It is sure-footed and confident in the knowledge that you can meet life head on and handle whatever comes along.

Jacob had it. Esau didn't. Symbolically, we can look to Jacob's wrestling match with the angel. Those who have class have wrestled with their own personal angel and won a victory that marks them thereafter.

Class never makes excuses. It takes its lumps and learns from past mistakes.

Class is considerate of others. It knows that good manners are nothing more than a series of small sacrifices.

Class bespeaks an aristocracy that has nothing to do with ancestors or money. The most affluent blueblood can be totally without class while the descendant of a Welsh miner may ooze class from every pore.

Class never tries to build itself up by tearing others down. Class is already up and need not strive to look better by making others look worse.

Class can "walk with kings and keep its virtue and talk with crowds and keep the common touch." Everyone is comfortable with the person who has class because he is comfortable with himself.

If you have class you don't need much of anything else. If you don't have it, no matter what else you have, it doesn't make much difference.

Ann Landers Encyclopedia"

MJ: We are not "perfect creatures." In fact, it is our imperfections that make life interesting.

I didn't know Descartes was Jewish. are we only doing Jewish philosophers? He was the first half of the semester at ucla the other half was Max Otto a modern pragmatist. . . may or may not be Jewish, but a relief to me after working my way down to nothingness based on I think, therefor I am. . sillyness, I thought, but then I'm a born gad fly. Everything that is historically accepted is open to question which may be what I learned from my ten weeks with Descarte. . .Claire

Justin:

That is one sense of it, but I meant in the sense of our ability to choose for ourselves. We do not wait for another - God - to choose for us. We make our own mistakes.

MJ: WE are perfect because we are imperfect. OK.

MESSAGE FROM MAL

Good morning,

For a variety of reasons, the most pressing of which is money to pay for full time nursing help, I have decided to go into a nursing home.

Dorian will post the address and a possible telephone number as well as messages from me. This does not mean that my condition has worsened, au contraire, I am getting better every day.

I'll be talking to you from somewhere soon.

Mal

Justin:

I think we each have another point in mind, so I'll accept your comment based on that.

"Ibn Gabirol had more influence as a philosopher than as a poet.
"It is one of the jeux d'esprit of history that the Scholastics quoted him with respect as Avicebron and thought him a Moslem or a Christian. Not until 1846 did Salomon Munk discover that Ibn Gabirol and Avicebron were one.
"The misunderstanding had almost been prepared by Gabirol's attempt to write philosophy in terms fully independent of Judaism. His anthology of proverbs -- Choice of Pearls -- took nearly all its quotations from non-Jewish sources although Hebrew folklore is peculiarly rich in pointed and pithy apothegms.
"One pearl is quite Confucian:-'How shall one take vengeance on an enemy? By increasing one's good qualities.'
"This is practically a summary of the treatise On the Improvement of the Moral Qualities which Gabirol seems to have composed at twenty-four when philosophy is unbecoming. By an artificial schematism the young poet derived all virtues and vices from the five senses with platitudinous results.
"But the book had the distinction of seeking to construct, in the Age of Faith, a moral code unsupported by religious belief.
"With like audacity Gabirol's chef-d'oeuvre -- Mekor Hayim -- refrained from quoting either the Bible, the Talmud, or the Koran.
"It was this unusual supernationalism that made the book so offensive to the rabbis and, when translated into Latin as Fons Vitae (The Fountain of Life), so influential in Christendom.
"Gabirol accepted the Neoplatonism that permeated all Arabic philosophy but he imposed upon it a voluntarism that stressed the action of the will in God and man. We must, said Gabirol, assume the existence of God as first substance, first essence, or primary will, in order to understand the existence or motion of anything at all.
"But we cannot know the attributes of God. The universe was not created in time but flows in continuous and graduated emanations from God. Everything in the universe except God is composed of matter and form. These always appear together and can be separated only in thought.
"The rabbis repudiated this Avicennian cosmology as a disguised materialism. But Alexander of Hales, St. Bonaventure, and Duns Scotus accepted the universality of matter under God and the primacy of will.
"William of Auvergne nominated Gabirol as 'the noblest of all philosophers' and thought him a good Christian."
Sounds much like our discussisons in the second volume, "The Life of Greece."

Robby

Saadia tells us that free will is central to Jewish thinking. He contrasts that idea with the determinism of Islam. Islam advances the idea that Allah is responsible for everything that goes on in the world. Saadia's view is that if God is the first and only cause then there can be no sinners. Law breakers may not be punished for the actions of Allah.

Free will coupled with an admonition to do this and not that produced a western society with many faults but one in which man assumes he is responsible for his actions. This view encouraged western man to be venturesome.

Islamic determinism on the other hand, produced an eastern society in which man is punished for his misbehavior,but is not necessarily responsible for that behavior. Since everything one does is predetermined by Allah, one is less inclined to be venturesome. The Muslim says, if Allah intended that I be venturesome, I would be venturesome.

It is possible this difference in one's attitude toward the role of God in man's actions has contributed to the progress made over the centuries by the two societies.

The existence of an all powerful God is totally incompatible wth free choice. A God that dos not act on its capabilities might as well not exist. And free choice itself is a totally useless concept. Just analyze how choice is made. It is based on past experience and the capability to visualize the results of that choice. These are totally fixed. To ignore either one is to court disaster and if a decision based on these two factors is not possible then a coin toss could decide but that too is not a free choice, merely a mindless alternative. I don't want a free choice, I want a choice solidly based on my capabilites which must not be free but responsive to perceived factors.

Beyond that, the nature of four dimensional space precludes freedom. A five dimenional continuum with parallel universes merely complicates the problem but does not contribute freedom.

The five books of the FONS VITAE.

Robby

We do have free will in life. We can make good or bad choices. If we make bad choices sure as eggs they come back to bite us. That is the beauty of my faith it gives me a free choice - to do good or to do evil. To make good choices makes life a lot less complicated.

Jan Sand:

I do not understand your rationale that the existence of an all-powerful God is totally incompatible with free choice. God's power is not aimed toward a human being here. It is part of the properties that identify God.

Free choice is a gift to humanity from God. It does not exist alone, though. In order to exercise free choice there are two other properties of the human intellect that are engaged. First, an understanding or knowledge of things and second, the ability to remember things. These three gifts come together to allow a human being to make a free choice.

I have no idea what you mean in the following excerpt from your #100.

Beyond that, the nature of four dimensional space precludes freedom. A five dimenional continuum with parallel universes merely complicates the problem but does not contribute freedom.

Re Fons Vitae (Fountain of Life):

I join with the Jewish philosphers who were unhappy with the ideas there.

There were places I read where there was absolutely no logical sequence, and I became at a loss as to why it was appreciated in those days.

It is important to understand what is meant by freedom. When one claims free choice it should be understood what one is free from. One is not free to choose badly if one is motivated to choose well and make the best perceived choice. I do not vouch that everybody has the capacity to perceive the best choice. The idea that anybody would choose badly on purpose is irrational. Beyond that, any living creature that purposely makes bad choices would not survive for long. Freedom of choice is an illusion. All of our experience and all of our capabilities directs our choice and not only can we not ignore these capabilities, there would be no purpose in doing so

My remark on multidimensionality refers to the nature of time and space. As creatures that can only act on possibilities and probabilities we are not aware that time is not created as we perceive it any more than space is created as we explore it. It's all there and we're stuck with it

Jan writes :-"Just analyze how choice is made. It is based on past experience and the capability to visualize the results of that choice. These are totally fixed."

Really?

My past experience is not fixed, but is being augmented by fresh experience every moment, and I hope my "capability to visualize the results of ( any free ) choice" is improving every day.

As for the 4th and 5th dimension, I can just (almost) visualize a four dimensional cube, but other visualizations are beyond me, so in this regard I must take your word for what happens in such spaces.

My instincts lead me to believe in free will, and personal responsibility. As this is incompatible with the idea of an Omnipotent God, my only choice is to reject Him, or free will. As a God who is subject to the vagaries of blind chance is no God at all, then it follows I reject the idea of any deity that has so far been presented to me.++ Trevor

I see it operating within the boundaries of the given culture where choices do exist even if they are sometimes very hard choices having to do with survival. Now what does this have to do with Jewish philosophy?. . . . Claire

No doubt that the past experience is modified by subsequent events but we exist in the present. Our past is not something we reach back to in order to evaluate probabilities. The past has modified our current envelope of conceptual awareness and is in our present as part of our array of decision making tools. In effect, as William Falkner has noted, the past is not past. And it is with this current "past" (which is momentarily fixed) that we make our decisions.

To get a kind of vision of dimensions beyond three it is useful to visually dispense with one dimension and substitute another higher dimension.

If you visualize our four dimensions as a one dimensional line proceeding from the past to the future, then a plane can be visualized as composed of multiples of these lines laid side by side. It is frequently assumed that we are all contained within one time line and proceed in unison to the future. I have dobts about this and consider it is possible that each of us may wander through other time lines towards the future. The film "Groundhog Day" implicitly explored this possibility. A sixth dimension may be visualized as a stack of the five dimensional planes to form a six dimensional solid. Beyond that, you are on your own.

and Jewish Philosophers . . . . claire

Jan; Sorry you were unsuccessful in your google inquiry on the "Logos". It is a Greek term for word. Plotinus and the neoplatonists used it to mean the Divine Wisdom. Philo used the term "Logos or Divine Wisdom" to express the creative agency of God. It appears in the Kaballah in essentially the same form.

Islam uses the term to say, that from Allah emanates an "active intelligence or logos" from which proceeds the world of souls and bodies. Philo's doctrine of the logos is implemented to establish an eternal quality in the Qur'an.The documant was not created on the day it was received by Muhamad. It always was in Allah's mind. It is an eternal document.

Christians implemented the concept in the Fourth Gospel, John 1. and later used it to squelch heresies. There were quite a few ( Nestorian, Arian etc) concerned with the character of the second person of the Trinity.

We are dealing here with a theological concept and the ways in which it is implemented in Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.

Use of the concept of the Logos led to some interesting twists as it was applied across the board. For example,Jesus is both Logos (Divine as God in the Trinity)) and Human. When Mary gave birth to Jesus, God was born. When Jesus suffered on the cross, God or the Logos suffered.

That's probably more than you wanted to know.

If you wish to understand the concept of the Logos, a good place to start is with Plotinus.

soooo as Philos uses it . . it is part of the origin of Jewish Philosophical thought, perhaps the irrational side or unrational. I guess the wordage is important as opposed to RATIONAL. . all of which came later is you follow that link I just posted. YOU have an overview of the whole process which unites religion with philosophy. . . so that any philosophy which is dependent on a god or super power is in essence a religion???? .Or as is suggested in that article can be viewed as an IRRATIONAL form of Philosophy. . . Claire

Trevor: Free will is not incompatible with an omnipotent God. An all powerful God is not obliged to use the power. That's what MeriJo was talking about when she said God created the perfect person- one who could make choices freely.

the perfect person without the good judgement to make choices in his/her interest. HARDLY PERFECT . . . . .Claire

I am off on one of my obigatory trips. Fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers, are duty bound to attend all graduations in a family. It is that season again so I am off to watch all my cap and gowners switch the tassel. I'll be back on Monday, hopefully just in time for our discussion of Maimonides.

There is more to omnipotence than power. If God is a multidimensional being it can view all consequences and it cannot be a God and disregard what can be done to remedy disaster. If so, it is not functioning as a God.

Maimonides

1135-1204

"The greatest of medieval Jews was born in Cordova, son of the distinguished scholar, physician, and judge Maimon ben Jospeh.
"The boy received the name of Moses and it became an adage among Jews that 'from Moses to Moses there arose none like Moses.' His people knew him as Moses ben Maimon or, more briefly, Maimuni.
"When he became a famous rabbi the initials of his title and his name were combined into the fond appellation Rambam. The Christian world expressed his parentage by terming him Maimonides. A probably legendary story tells how the boy showed a distaste for study, how the disappointed father, calling him 'the butcher's son,' packed him off to live with the father's former teacher, Rabbi Joseph ibn Migas.
"From this poor beginning the second Moses became adept in Biblical and rabbinical literature, in medicine, mathematics, astronomy, and philosophy. He was one of the two most learned men of his time. His only rival was Averroes. Strange to say, these outstanding thinkers, born in the same city only nine years apart, seem never to ghave met.
"Aparently Maimonides read Averroes only in old age, after his own books had been written."
My step daughter was a high school drop out. Then she watched my attending university at a later age, got her GED, attended community college, decided to go on to college to get her BA, married her instructor, moved with him to San Diego, got her Masters in Social Work, studied for her license, and is now an LCSW (Licensed Clinical Social Worker). Maimonides is not the only youth who originally showed a "distaste for study" but then changed. Any similar stories here?

Robby

Was Einstein a poor student ? And what is an LSW . . . . I remember a poem you wrote about her back in LOOSEY GOOSEY DAYS you were very very proud of her. . . . Claire

"Choice" is never really free because whatever "choice" we make comes responsibility. I believe that within us all is a dual concept of good and evil. Therefore our "choices" whether free or not will be based upon the good vs. evil concept. But whatever our choice we need to take personal responsibility for it and not hide behind philosophy or religion.

eat all that good high calorie stuff . . . Claire

There probably is, within us, a sense of good and evil. Unfortunately there is very little agreement among us exactly what those qualities might be. Those soldiers that trampled the Jews to death under their horses hooves undoubtedly felt they were performing good acts. As did the legal officials who crucified Jews and, to be more recent, as did Timothy McVey who went to his death happy with what he did. Not very consoling to me

In my dictionary "omnipotence" means all powerful,nothing more. Talk to Noah if you have a problem with that.

In the order of things here on earth a human being is the summit of all creation.

There is good and evil in the world, true, however, thinking back to that time in history when there was no particular religion as such, human beings behaved in reaction to their consciences. The conscience, if it is true - a healthy brain - sends off inner feelings that such an such an act or behavior is good or bad.

I think this is the way people started out.

Aah, but what does all powerful mean? Does it not mean the power to do anything? If so it confers the power to know anything and everything also.

It always brings us to that dumb question "Does God have the power to create something too heavy for Him to lift?" There ain't no such thing as all powerful.

MeriJo

"In the order of things here on earth a human being is the summit of all creation." The Greeks had a word for statements like that. It is "hubris".

If you can look round you and see the range of human viciousnes and stupidity and energetic destruction of the basis of life on Earth and declare that the summit of possibility in a living creature I am aghast.

Jan Sand:

God would not remedy disaster. Disaster follows an action of humankind. In the examination of "disaster" the beginning of it may be found as coming from a human behavior, either voluntarily of inadvertently. If one thinks disaster may occur one may pray to Him and ask that it be averted, but He may or may not answer the prayer.

God is not a multidimensional being, at all. The pronoun, "He" is used because when the word "God" is used, it is used on the sense of God being the Father. However God has no gender, nor dimensions. He is believed to be everywhere and is thought of as being the generator/creator of the world and a perfect spirit. And no one has ever seen God, the Father.

I think the above is compatible with Jewish belief.

Jan Sand:

The rest of my post referred to human behaviors that without a religion would emanate from a true conscience.

There also exists a false conscience where the individual does not have a sense of right and wrong in a clear way. There is also an erroneous conscience where mistaken knowledge guides a person's actions and then there is the doubtful conscience, where one is very hesitant about which way is the correct way to follow in a particular situation. This last can be a torment for the individual who has such doubts.

Jan: It has been many years since I studied this - I believe in an ethics class, and I do not know if these categories for conscience are still used. However, in this case as a way of explanation it may be useful.

I feel sure that in that group of soldiers who trampled the Jews there were some who believed that what they were doing was completely wrong, but if they were under orders from a superior officer to do such a thing their choice was gone. As for Timothy Mc Veigh, it appears that the man had a very pronounced erroneous conscience and more.

Jan Sand:

I did not make myself clear. I certainly did not mean to be hubristic.

In the order of beings on earth beginning with the invisible single cell, humankind is the summit of the order. Within a human being are the capabilities of possibilities yet to be uncovered.

The behaviors you describe are not the result of correct thinking, I would say, but certainly within the realm of the capabilities of a human being.

There have always been bad behaviors. This is the way the world is - good people, bad people and some in-between. I do not mean to be condescending or anything like that. Half the time, I don't know how my words are going to sound. I am bilingual and sometimes I think in Italian and translate into English as I write.

MeriJo

You indicate that there is a Whitman chocolate box of consciences and as Forest Gump says, you never know what you get. The Nazi soldiers frequently claimed that they did what they did because they "were following orders". Evidently you disagree with the general opinion that that is not a valid excuse.

If you are looking for a creature that has risen to the summit of living capability let me submit the humble cockroach as a reasonable candidate. It has prospered for a hundred times the existence of humanity and still seems to be doing rather well without wrecking the world. Humanity could well strive for that record but it looks unlikely to accomplish it.

The anti defamation League prints an article denoting the resincing of the Israeli university boybott as a victory over the dark forces of antisemitism

HERE . .. .
Claire

Additionally the ADL has a list of areas where they are keeping watch and of course the USA is there too. See the page covering all of them here

Claire

Interesting that the Israelis have devised boybots. This precludes, I assume, girlbots which implies robot sex is on the horizon. Since the Japanese are now selling dogbots and nature has devised botflies I assume life will become ever various with a mechanical zoo. Returning to the site topic I can foresee various religious bots soon to emerge. Life is getting exciting.

This is what you should have read Jan.

Rescinding of British Boycott of Israeli Universities Hailed By ADL

Just kidding. I couldn't resist the opening.

I KNOW you love them but I think here you have over reached even while employing your poets license. . .the rhyme isn't working althoug the concept is interesting. . . Claire

Omnipotent means all-powerful, and all-knowing, because power is derived from knowledge. If an Omnipotent being existed then his knowledge would fix the future, in the same way as the past is fixed.

Such a situation excludes the existence of free will. One can not have both an all knowing god and free will existing in the same universe.

As Jan has suggested it is impossible for an irresistible force and an immovable object coexisting. You can have one or the other perhaps, but never both.

I vote for free will. +++ Trevor

is an ideal but not obtainable. as Voltaire writes it extends only as far as the point of the other fella nose. soooo FREE WILL is simply an abstraction. . . . Claire

There is something irresistable about anything free. Advertisers have long used this to foist insignificant tchatchkas on a gullible public to make a sale and our current president is well versed in the technique but there aint no free lunch and there aint no free will. All action is constrained by necessities and humanity, like planets and flowers and frogs and galaxies bends to rigid rules of nature. Thems the rules, like it or not.

Always have had a hard time with the "free will" thing.

The best I can make of it is that it's a brilliant creation by organized religion to help them explain the fact that there is evil in a world supposedly created by their omnipotent God.

For that matter, how does an omnipotent God allow the existance of Satan? Does free will come into that equation, too?

Rich

I remember for years that the New Yorker Magazine had a section called the "Infatuation with the Sound of his Own Words Department." Obviously I am not aiming at any particular participant.

Robby

I believe in SUCCINCT AND PITHY. . . . Claire

"In 1148 Berber fanatics captured Cordova, destroyed churches and synagogues and gave Christians and Jews a choice between Islam and exile.
"In 1159 Maimonides, with his wife and children, left Spain. For nine years they lived in Fez, pretending to be Moslems. There, too, no Jews or Christians were allowed.
"Maimonides justified superficial adherence to Islam among endangered Jews in Morocco by arguing that 'we are not asked to render active homage to heathenism but only to recite an empty formula. The Moslems themselves know that we utter it insincerely in order to circumvent bigots.
"The head rabbi of Fez did not agree with him and suffered martyrdom in 1165. Fearing the same fate, Maimonides left for Palestine. Thence he moved to Alexandria (1165) and old Cairo, where he lived until his death.
"Soon recognized as one of the ablest practitioners of his time, he became personal physician to Saladin's eldest son Nur-ud-Din Ali, and to Saladin's vizier al-Qadi al-Fadil al-Baisani. He used his favor at court to secure protection for the Jews of Egypt. When Saladin conquered Palestine, Maimonides persuaded him to let the Jews settle there again.
"In 1177 Maimonides was made Nagid or head of the Jewish community in Cairo. A Moslem jurist indicted him (1187) as an apostate from Islam and demanded the usual death penalty.
"Maimonides was saved by the vizier who ruled that a man converted to Mohammedanism by force could not rightly be considerd a Moslem."
So he was saved because he was a Moslem and saved because he was not a Moslem.
Discretion is the better part of valor.

Robby

Jan Sand:

I am not in the same ball park with you. That is for sure.

One thing about posting among such erudite people as here is that it is a crap shoot as to what your reactions will be. I have no idea what your backgrounds are, and you may know somewhat of mine by the things I have posted.

The study of logic and ethics preceded pyschology for me, and some of the classes I had pointed out the vagaries of the human mind - each one being different, because of what the particular individual carried as baggage. This baggage prompted certain behavior.

In those days the discipline in teaching these subjects were according to a formula, and gave a student a direction for studying thought and behavior in a way that the student could build more knowledge of the subject in future classes.

In as much as many of you here have offered opinion as to what constitutes free will and God and omnipotence. Your expectations that God is unable to correct bad behavior or avert disasters, I can only wonder why you would think so. Why would we have had a need for God at all ? Expecting Him to flit around the world stopping this volcanic eruption or that uprising? Have one screaming individual quieted and another grabbed from going over a waterfall just in time? What would have been the point of a universe at all?

I don't want God coming into a personal situation without being asked. I believe I have as much as I need to make choices-thanks to Him - and I think I have done pretty well up to now. This is not to say, that I have never said God help me through this or thank you for that.

It boggles my mind that you would think that all the troubles you perceive are by people who should have been struck down before committing the crime or causing the rivers to run dry.

I traveled into East Germany at the time one had to go through Checkpoint Charlie to get into East Berlin - The expression on the soldier's face as he looked at my passport was of the sort that one would not want to cross him. The strongest instinct every human being has is the one of self-preservation. I guess, if that was qualified as true, I would have accepted that excuse offered by a German soldier who refused to disobey an order.

God would have already accomplished what has been accomplished by human beings up to now and into the future! No meaning at all to this sort of thinking. Why are we on this trip through time?

It's a good thing that your Discussion Leader is a poor 'ol country boy struggling to learn the ways of the world. Tends to keep the discussion on a level comparative to those who are regular boob tube watchers.

Robby

Is anyone interested in Maimonides?

Robby

So you were taught a formula for thinking. It shows. the formula is flawed as they often are. I don't need a god at all and have baggage if you will that makes me believe that everyone who does is somehow lacking in self confidence. . . nuff said. . . succinct. . . .Claire

Inscrutable, as usual.

It is difficult to be faithful to your principles when you must perform horribly evil acts to remain alive. That is, after all, the ultimate test of faith. Jeanne D'Arc passed it as did, I presume, Jesus. But we all cannot be Jesus.

If you all keep this up I might break down and say something, but it's past my bed time now so I will keep on lurking for now.

Nice to have you with us MeriJo.

say something . . . . Claire

Good night, Eloise. Sleep tight.

Why were the Israeli Universities boycotted?

Winsum:

The "formula" to which I referred is logic. Our minds (brains, I mean here - there are many dimensions) may be studied according to logic and more as time goes on. Neurology is still in its childhood.

Robby:

I liked Maimonides philosophy. It is similar to mine which has stood me in good stead over the years. I did read the essay on the Golden Dream. But this site is going forward as in a race.

Eloise:

Thank you. I like being here.

One thing I find disturbing about Durant as presented here is the type of information about the personalities in history. We are given their names and told when and how they were born and where they lived and how they were acclaimed or persecuted. It is, of course, asking a great deal to require the essential philosophy of outstanding people be capsuled in a paragraph or two but these people remain as cryptic mysteries if few or no clues are given as to what were their outstanding beliefs. It is remeniscent of my grammar and high school experience in history wherein dates for events were required for memorization but almost nothing of social context was presented. It made history pretty much a fossilized study and rather boring.

I often make major leaps of logic. . ..not possible within a structured form. I couldn't create within that form. I'd be constantly trying to find a way out of it. .. claustrophic. This is how a creative mind works flexible and FREE wheeling. . . . see my page sometime. . . Claire

I couldn't agree more re: names and dates . . . and have written about it in past posts. . . . Claire

I am still reading about the Rambam. Rambam wrote the Mishneh Torah which became a standard guide to Jewish practice and later served as the model for the Shulkhan Arukh. He is fascinating.

This week I am immersed in 'Shulkhan Arukh', the legal book of code compiled by the great Sephardic rabbi Joseph Caro in the mid 1500 and which is still the standard legal code of Judaism. I needed to know the mourning traditions for a kin who died abroad.

This week we celebrate Lag Baomer and it is customary on that day to visit the tombs of the Sages and particularly of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai in Meron. Rambam is also one of those remembered on that day.

http://www.jewishmag.com/10mag/israel/israel.htm

Regarding Durant's methods and our "going forward as in a race," it might help for us to keep in mind that he is telling the story of civilization. In just this volume alone he is covering 1000 years in a 1000 pages. There are those of us who might want to pause and examine in detail, for example, the entire life of Maimonides rather than the brief time we will spend with him. Some folks here might do a small project like that on the side while keeping up with Durant. And of course there are always the links which help to broaden our discussion.

Robby

I'm hearing very little related to the two posts so far of Maimonides and perhaps the interest is not here.

Robby

We need more content of his ideas in order to be able to discuss him. Here is a link to a translation of one of his works. If you click on each sublink, it gives a brief summary at the top of what is discussed there.

RAMBAM

This link discusses religeous ideas and morality, not philosophy. The first section deals with the nature of God. Is this the concept of "logos" we have been talking about?

As we move through the "progress" of civilization, war always seems to be present. Could it be that PEACE is taking over?

Robby

OK, Joan -- more content.
"During these busy years in Cairo Maimonides composed most of his books.
"Ten medical works in Arabic transmitted the ideas of Hippocrates, Galen, Dioscorides, al-Razi and Avicenna. Medical Aphorisms reduced Galen to 1500 short statements covering every branch of medicine. It was translated into Hebrew and Latin and was frequently quoted in Europe under the formula Dixit Rabbi Moyses.
"For Saladin's son he wrote a treatise on diet. For Saladin's nephew al-Muzaffar I, Sultan of Hamah, he composed an Essay on Intercourse (Maqala fi-l-jima) -- on sexual hygiene, impotence, priapism, aphrodisiacs.
"To these writings Maimonides added several monographs -- on poisons, asthma, hemorrhoids, and hypochondria -- and a learned Glossary of Drugs. Like all books, these medical works contain several items not in accord with the passing infallibilities of our time -- e.g. if the right testis is larger than the left, the first child will be male.
"But they are marked by an earnest desire to help the sick, by a courteous consideration of contrary opinions, and by wisdom and moderation of prescription and advice.
"Maimonides never prescribed drugs where diet could serve. He warned against oveereating:-'The stomach must not be made to swell like a tumor.' He thought that wine was healthful in moderation.
"He recommended philosophy as a training in the mental and moral balance and calm conducive to health and longevity."
Robby

One of America's top MEDICAL CENTERS named after Maimonides.

Robby

Maimonides' On Sexual Intercourse

Cambridge University Library T-S Ar.44.79

Leaf 1 recto

'Long pepper, galanga, ginger and aristolochia, an ounce of each, cinnamon and anise, two ounces of each, clove, mace and nutmeg, one quarter ounce of each; grind these medicaments so that they will be ready to season any dish to be cooked and strew them over the dish. Strew it according to what will be mentioned in detail.

What one must avoid in foods and medicaments is all that makes cold or dry or drives away the winds. Of the things customary among us, lentils, vetch, and cold vegetables as cucumber, donkey cucumber, melons, garden orach and spinach belong to this group and more especially lettuce, which is very harmful in this'...

Leaf 2 verso

'For that is the most efficient treatment to warm the genitals, to conduct good blood to them, to strengthen them and to strengthen erection. One should also make a point to constantly drink iron water, as is prescribed for people with dysentery. Let it be filed and drunk at the time of need. If it is possible, then the broth of all dishes should be iron water, since this is very useful for strengthening the erection and strengthening all the inner organs. Know that the physicians only designate by 'joy-bringing drink' drink prepared with ox-tongue. Experience shows that if ox-tongue is placed in wine until its strength is extracted, it greatly increases the joy and strengthens sexual intercourse. If one takes this famous iron water and boils in it four dirhams of ox-tongue, half an ounce of lemon peel, half a dirham of beaten carnation; and one mixes in two ritls of wine or a ritl of honey (for one who does not consider wine permissible) and drinks this little by little, it will be of great avail. This much is sufficient for what the servant was ordered to do. The master may choose out of this that which is easy to do, do sometimes this, and another time that. May God lengthen his life in happiness and delight, and join for him this with the everlasting bliss, in His mercy'.

Viagra, move over. Maybe it's made of ox-blood.

In today's news it said that Viagra might cause a rare sort of blindness in certain people. Go natural, go ox-tongue.

The Rambam was so busy on many different topics, where did he find time to have a life? I find it remarkable how these Sages can stay dedicated to a task for so many years, write that many scholarly treatises and act so human at the same time.

PRINCIPLES, NOT PERSONALITIES

Maimonides did not say that, but he could have.

Sometime back, Justin asked about Jewish doctors in the hospital where I was. Well, the MDs did not wear the Christian cross, the star of David, or other icons embroidered on their white coats over their blue jeans, so I found it hard to tell what religion they were. I'll tell you that the number of young women resident doctors at the University of North Carolina hospitals was greater than that of men. That tells me something. There was one young female medical student I could not stand. She must have gotten the message because she stopped coming around. I was not at all reluctant to tell these doctors what I thought of them and the way they treated me, though it took a while for them to get used to my sense of humor.

It bothered me while I was in the hospital to see how specilaized and restrictive the various fields are. The medical doctor bone is not attached to the surgeon doctor bone is not attached to the nurses bone, and this is wrong.

I'll probably be entering a nursing home called Hillcrest Convalescent Center in Durham on Monday. My daughter has found out that she is very compassionate and caring, but she certainly is not Superwoman. Nor am I, but I'm trying. This is phase three of my "Oh Boy what hit me" recovery.

With my daughter's help, I will come in and post from time to time. You're not rid of me yet guys. As I posted in WREX, there are seven more volumes of the Story of Civilization to go through and discuss. That's approximately seventy months. I don't intend to miss any of it.

Mal

Hey, Mal -- you're back!! We've been keeping track through Dorian how you have been doing. We don't want you to overdo yourself but it is certainly nice to hear your words again. As for your relationships with your doctors, it took us a year or so in SofC to get to know your style, what would you expect from your doctors in a week or so?

Robby

Is this the MODERN VERSION of Maimonides' approach to sex?

Robby

where did imagination and sense of discovery disappear? Maimonides must groan where he is.

Mal, I wonder what choice of reading books they have in that nursing home? Do some publicity for Incandescence! Best of wishes for a "short holiday" in that home and good recovery. Bubble

in Cordoba, Spain.

Don't know who the gentleman is standing next to him, but probably the one who put the flower in Maimonides hand.

http://contrapunctus.net/league/photo/pcd4340/048.php

Rich

About Maimonides and his statue

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/579964.html

More about Maimonides - (1135 - 1204) from Robby's earlier link.

* The fundamental demand of revelation is that we pursue the human likeness to God by perfecting humanity in ourselves.

Jan Sand: Above is my point in identifying a human being as the summit of God's creation.

His formulation of the basic principles of Judaism in a series of 13 creedal affirmations, in the hope of clarifying the differences between Judaism and both Islam and Christianity, occasioned great controversy when it was first composed; it has since been accepted widely and incorporated into most Jewish prayer books.

Maimonides had an orderly inclination. Logic won out, apparently.

The greatest controversy, however, developed over Maimonides' major philosophic work, Moreh Nebukhim (Guide for the Perplexed), in which Maimonides attempted to interpret many biblical and rabbinic themes in the light of the philosophy of Aristotle as known to him through the Arabic philosophers al-Farabi and Avicenna.

An important element in his undertaking was to supply allegorically philosophic translations of the anthropomorphic expressions used with reference to God in many biblical passages. This departure from literal reading of the sacred text was deeply resented by many of the religious leaders of the age.

The above describes the present-day thinking of many people re the Bible. Much of it is allegorical.

winsum:

Your comment about your freely applied logic in your paintings is understandable. I remember learning way back in time that some people were "haptic", had a tactile approach, in their art.

Others had a more visual approach.

No one approach was necessarily the only one used in a painting or art work. There was emotion and more as you know far better than I.

Logic in this artistic sense is something else - a personal expression and more, I think.

Robby: Your #158

I hope so.

Tierney's words are welcome and in thinking about them, reasonable.

"You shall not make for yourself any graven idol or any image,"

the rabbis ruled and threatened a political crisis."

so the statue in cordoba is a WORK OF ART and quite idealized. . . different from the one going to FEZ . . . now also a gift, a work of art. . . sheesh . . . Claire

MeriJo

I attempted to use reason to point out that humanity's place as the summit of creation was inappropriate. You properly corrected me by indicating it was the wrong tool.

Jan Sand:

Reason need not have been the wrong tool to have used if you thought of the order of creatures. There are no creatures here on earth above a human being, but certainly there are among human beings those with greater intellectual strengths and capabilities.

just to make a dent. . about idiot savants. . . they have very superior abilities in some areas and have even been considered geniuses in their time and place. it's relative and related to the use required of it in a given situation. now back to Jewish philosophy? . . . . Claire

Durant's regular comments about Class in these first four volumes suggests that he will be talking about Class in the remaining seven. This link shows the connection between CLASS AND CONSUMPTION.

Robby

We miss the status of royal birth and other such inherited measures of class. So we do it with material objects.

I had a funny experience. I'm a life long artist and my stuff is all over the place. When My daughter, a teenager brought home a girl friend one day from a family much more affluent than ours she. the girl looked around and whispered "you have real oil paintings on your walls".. It hadn't occurred to her that they were "home made" That would probably have changed everything

Claire

winsum:

I wasn't talking about idiot savants - this was a reference to human beings - all of them - which I believe include you. I do believe Maimonides made a reference to them in his philosophical statements. I must be very vague, indeed, in my syntax.

MeriJo

We classify creatures on the basis of our own standards. Every living thing occupies a niche in nature's possibilities for existence so that nature supplies the creature's wants and the creature, in turn, processes these supplies to supply a useful component back into the larder of nature. In corrupting these processes into destroying the natural patterns of existence humanity is indeed one of the lowest useful components in the hierarchy and a plague on the complex order of existence. No doubt we are ingenious but always, unfortunately, to destructive ends. We have yet to understand and properly utilize our capabilities.

Jan Sand:

Thank you for your explanation, but I do disagree with you almost wholly.

I see that you are very concerned and preoccupied with ecological balance. It is a worthy cause. Your definition is exclusive, I think, and yet, you apply it generally. It does shut out the many other things to consider in the world that can preclude an environmental measure.

Here we have the chimney police - yes, volunteers. They drive up and down the streets on wintry nights to look at smoke coming out of house's chimneys. If the air-quality has registered unhealthy, even though it is cold and a friendly fire in the fireplace would make the room cozy, one can expect a knock at the door re one's fireplace smoke.

The impetus for correct behavior comes from within a person.

MeriJo

You are the most amusing trivial minded person I have yet encountered. The cozy comfort of a home fireplace seems to you the most threatening capability humanity can offer when species are disappearing at breakneck speeds, the Amazon forest which supplies the world with oxygen is inexorably being wiped out by a market for beef and the poverty of farmers in he area, when the seas are rapidly being fished to extinction, when the great coral reefs are sickening and dying from the rise in temperature of the Earth, when the Inuit Indians no longer can sustain themselves in their decaying environment, when Pacific island are slipping into the seas, when a few microscopic cells are rated as more important than fully developed horribly suffering creatures, when one half the world is butchering the other half over total nonsense by creatures rated as the summit of creation.

You seem like a character out of "Alice in Wonderland" fretting over a home fireplace mumbling magic spells to an unseeable paralyzed entity who, in its beneficence, permits the world to slump into dead sludge out of a conviction to let its creations work their intricate way into non-existence. Looked at abstractly it is hilarious.

I know people poor as churchmice who have class. I think there are very wealthy people from so called prominant families who have no class! I could mention two young ladies who feature prominantly in reality programs who have no class at all. I am glad I am not their parent.

Carolyn

Bubble Ox-tongue ? I've always been told Oysters 'have' it .... LOL

Strange bit about Peace, Robby. I just do not understand how anyone could come to think that fighting has diminished in any way. As for the analysis that the costs of war out weigh its profits, this is no doubt correct as far as it goes. But the costs, horrendous as they are, will never bring an end to war. Has anyone ever heard of a nation that stopped fighting, because it couldn't afford to continue?

The writer fails to understand that in war, the costs are shackled on to the people,(tax-payers and consumers ) while the profits accrue to the authorities who instigated the war in the first place. As ever, economics are at the base of all nations' activity.

Someone quoted a piece above :- "An important element in his undertaking was to supply allegorically philosophic translations of the anthropomorphic expressions used with reference to God". I echo that last word as an exclamation ! (BG) ++ Trevor

You took on our poet and he did what he does best . . . EXPRESS fulllllly. frustration becomes him although a little tough on you (s) Claire

Imagine being so puffed up and filled with egotistical pride that one assumes they have the right to look down on others with grand amusement....now that is what I call a total LACK of class.

I'm sure Durant has discussed people like that. Can't remember what page that was on.

Sun

Jan Sand:

I am really sorry I give you that impression. I live in California and in the great Central Valley in the most polluted county in the nation so I know quite a bit about measures to combat that. I didn't want to list all the ways we have to counteract pollution, for example, here.

Our University of California, Merced, moved from its original site in order to save the fairy shrimp. The construction of this only State University in the Valley was begun elsewhere on the land for it.

I live a half hour away from the entrance to the Sequoia National Park. The measures taken in recent years to save old growth, such as not allowing some thinning of the trees - did no good. We had such a drought and the pollution from the valley rose to the mountains drying and subsequently killed the trees. They looked brown and dead and dry. Then we had lightning strikes take out a whole swaths of forest. The brushfires around the bases of the trees just roared through the forest. Now it's a mess of black and charred stumps. However, nature is resilient, and along with the forest service who have planted some young saplings and the new wild grasses and new little trees whose seeds burst open from the heat of the fire - things are coming back. The wildflowers are glorious. If I lived there I would see a different variety of flowers pop up from week to week.

All over the valley people and communities are doing their best to lessen the pollution - farmers turn their debris over burying it into the ground instead of burning it, communities recycle and have certain watering days throughout the summer, we have hazardous waste sites, trees are being planted in most of the towns' downtown areas to increase cleansing the air from their oxygen and to absorb the carbon dioxide. Individually, the communities have done very well, but we do get the most pollution from Hwy #99 and Interstate #5 from the diesel truck traffic and ordinary car travel. There are discussions underway to build a monorail along the spine of the valley, but that is far in the future. Industry does send many supplies via piggy-back on trains. Many houses and buildings have solar power. In fact most of our electricity here is from the hydroelectric plants in the Sierra Nevada. And other power is generated by huge windmills set up in very windy mountain passes. We do not use coal in California, but there is a large area of the Mojave Desert along Hwy#58 devoted to solar power generation for the Southern California Edison Company. I don't know which part of the State that serves.

I have a granddaughter who is a Ranger with the Park Service in Kings Canyon National Park, and another granddaughter, one of my Canadian ones, who is currently planting trees in British Columbia.

I hear a lot about conservation.

winsum:

Jan Sand is a very knowledgeable person and I am learning about him as I am of you but everyone here is just getting to know me. I, too, in another life wrote poetry. I won a place in the Writer's Magazine poetry contest to my surprise, and successfully taught reading by the use of poetry - having my students write poems - in another time. Those students have now retired, I have been away from teaching so long.

3kings: Your #184

That was my reference:

Your quote with the emphasis on the "last word" is regarding Maimonides, Jewish rabbi, physician and philosopher - the gentleman we are studying here. It's going to be nigh on impossible to talk about Jewish philosophers without running into God along the way.

I have read some of Maimonides on the net and he is unfortuntely bound with the tight cords of his religious traditions and much of the total nonsense of folk medicine which is as effective as voodoo pin sticking. But modern medicine has only become effecive rather recently with the understanding of the true function of body organs, the utility of vaccination, the understanding of microbial pathogens and the very recent discovery of anti-biotics previous to which humanity was rather helpless against disease. Undoubtedly he was an intelligent and knowledgeable man but we are all limited by our embedment in our culture and our traditions.

His concern with the body and the spirit is along the lines of the Cartesian separation of the mind and body, an unfortunate misreading of the primal importance of the conscience mind which is just a tool of the organism to apprehend and deal with the environment. This tool frequently takes it upon itself to debase the foundation for its existence which aberration has led to all sorts of fantastical delusions.

It depends on what one means by folk medicine. Herbal medicines form the basis of many modern drugs today such as aspirin and chemotherapy treatments. If one means mumbo jumbo and throwing the bones I agree its as much use as punishing someone with a slap from a wet bus ticket.

Carolyn

Undoubedly there have been valuable triumphs through the pragmatic discoveries of folk medicine, aspirin and quinine being amongst them. But it is the problem of fifty million monkeys typing out Shakespeare's sonnets. So much random inefective material must be discarded to obtain anything worthwhile that it might be more satisfactory to simply commit suicide by well known and secure methods than wend one's way amongst the useless tortuous procedures proferred by a an impassioned adherent of pseudo medicine on the way to an unwelcome finale.

I have been participating in this discussion of the Age of Faith for a while now and I have been rewarded by a good deal that I have not known before. Perhaps it is not out of line to make a general comment from a personal point of view.

I had been a professional designer and my work had to do with analyzing a necessity and discovering a method to satisfy it and using that discovery to produce a concrete solution for the problem. Design is one of those professions that requires an extensive understanding of many methods of manipulating materials, ideas, people and, to a limited extent, finance. But ideas are the prime playground for the generation of valuable solutions.

I had hoped, in this discussion based on Durant, that there might be a significant elucidation of the development of faith based morality to indicate that humanity had honed social wisdom through the several thousand years of its development so that, as with scientific understanding, there had been worthwhile leaps in compassion and practices of alleviation of misery which might point to the way a future pregnant with optimism might be envisioned. Although human sacrifice and cannibalism still occur, they no longer are an accepted part of society in general and this can be considered a somewhat minor improvement when viewed against the current accepted practices of collateral damage and the preparations for nuclear warfare and the lack of application of known alleviations to terrible problems and the most odd humane considerations of the evangelical Christians and the papal proclamations on birth control.

But, as someone concerned with ideas and methods, I was rather disappointed in the serial notation of dates and the names of what were considered noteworthy individuals with very little if any display as to why these particular individuals were noteworthy. A thousand years of history displayed succinctly may be something of an accomplishment but some sort of meat should be on the skeleton. Whose head was lopped and when is a bit spare of information as to how humanity fared at critical points of history and although Durant does give us names to be fed to Google for more substantial comprehension of what the hell humanity was up to at that point, I had hoped that Durant could be somewhat more informative and analytical in evaluating the humaneness of humanity.

of course Durant was at a disadvantage he didn't know google and his concept seems to have been all along to be just an outline for further study. What did we do before GOOGLE. We had to go to university libraries and for that we needed advanced degrees to get into the stacks. I'm putting up with things I don't like to discuss partly because of GOOGLE and everyone's personal input which I also enjoy there are some very savy people in here who agree or disagree which keeps things lively. . . . never a dull moment and the book itself is very dull. This is an ideal venue for such study. . . .. Claire

http://www.scottberkun.com/essays/essay40.htm

Just consider the amount of time we are living on this tiny planet for a moment when one lifetime, which is the only time we have seems to be not just a century, if one is lucky, but like if it was the only time that ever mattered throughout earth's life span. In this tiny tiny moment we all want to live the best we possibly can and our past inexoribly follows us like a shadow.

I was born just before the depression of practically illiterate parents who had come to the city not to make a fortune, they knew they could never do that, but to try to survive. Surviving through the depression in such a large city was a miracle but we did. Our mother saved us from the most horrendous childhood we could have had considering the circumstances but her faith in God pulled us through unscathed. She was the best example anyone could use as model.

What am I driving at? Life passes like lightning, one minute we are born and the next we are dead. We choose how we live, no one in the western world is forced to believe in anything if they don't want to. People are not stupid, like it was mentioned here recently, they care for their own body and soul and how they choose to live has as much value as anybody else's choice. No one is an expert and no one can say they know more than anybody else.

Who is killing this planet with environmentally lethal garbage? Us in North America because of our passion for cars and material things and here in Montreal, an environmental police would be laughable as we enjoy a fire in the fireplace, we claim it saves on electrical heating costs, this is for those who are rich enough to have a fireplace. But in our driveways, we have a car for each occupant in the house then we have the gall to complain about our neighbor's environmental polluters.

My life is passing like a flash, each experience embroidering its delicate pattern in my mind which has the will to discard unnecessary and unworthy information that just takes up room for nothing and needs to be just swept away to the wind.

But I love Durant, his penmanship is superb and reading him is like listening to fine music even if I couldn't possibly remember everything I have read here every day in the past three and a half years.

A warm hello to Robby and his brood of unruly students.

Éloïse

Many and many a high school or college class has been saddled with a boring book but the class has been remembered as stimulating because of the lively student participation. Assuming for discussion's sake that Durant is boring (which I do not assume), it is the access to Google and the agreements and disagreements of our participants which has made this forum last longer -- far longer -- than any group in the Books & Literature section of Senior Net.
Durant is the core. It is he and his wife Ariel who cause us to look things up on Google -- subjects which may never have entered our minds. It is the Durants who cause us to look deep within ourselves and ask -- as the Heading above suggests we ask -- what are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?
Why do our participants stay so long with us? Why (as has happened more than once in this discussion group) do some people leave for one reason or another and find themselves returning? To quote the Heading again -- "this discussion is about YOU."

Robby

Hear, hear! ot is it Here, here? I cannot fail to drop here daily and do this even before checking mail. The thoughts here go with me during the day, follow me in the different occupations I am engaged in and really urge me to think further on subjects I would never have considered otherwise.

There are months more interesting than others of course, but it is the richness of subjects, the new interesting facts that makes it thus attractive. I had never heard of those books before and for the discovery I am most grateful. Hopefully nothing will prevent me to continue until the last page.

Thanks DL for such a treat, thanks all for the honestly stated opinions. Bubble

Now there's an accolade -- checking out SofC even before checking the mail!!

Robby

Jan:--As Joan says, your link appears interesting. I have printed it out and will read it at my leisure.

Robby

Can there be a CLASS DISTINCTION within a class being discriminated against?

Robby

The columnist, David Brooks, quotes Karl Marx as saying:-"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggle. Freeman and slave, lord and serf, capitalist and proletariat, in a word oppressor and oppressed, stand in opposition to each other and carry on a constant fight."
As Durant has taken us through culture after culture, society after society, the topic of class differences, even class wars, has regularly arisen. Click on to Brook's ARTICLE and share your thoughts.

Robby

One of the intrinsically disturbing qualities to me of many things in life is the distance between realization and capability. The ideal Durant would bring Maimonides on stage and we would hear him out and question him and listen to how he felt about our own way of thinking. He could temporarily join our group and argue his beliefs and attitudes. Current technology is edging towards this capability by infusing an artificial intelligence with the personality and the history of an individual even if the individual would be a concoction like Hamlet or Mickey Mouse or perhaps, God. But we‘re not there yet. It may take a few years. And, of course, it could be dangerous since speaking to a simulated God may be mistaken by some for the real thing just as a wall stain or a toasted cheese sandwich has been apprised as the virgin Mary.

Probably my comments on humanity have been taken as a basic hatred of human beings but nothing could be further from the truth. My problem is the distance between what humanity could be and what it is and has been for most of recorded history. History is a record of how time and time again this naked monkey has produced remarkable individuals who point out how we can behave to gain good lives by mutual good will and intelligent strategies against the natural destructive phenomena which regularly occur and time and time again humanity acts as a mass of naked monkeys, even unto the present day. Attempt to formalize beneficent human behavior have repeatedly been corrupted by all of the negative short sighted motivations which prosper like a fungus on positions of human power.

I will not leave this forum as it is one of the few places where my ideas can bump other conceptions with a minimum of negative fire and even if a bit of smoke may be generated to obscure our viewpoints there is the prospect of clear intelligence to hopefully point out new directions.

And Durant, for whatever it could be, is still what we’ve got ,and possession is nine tenths of realization.

PRINCIPLES, NOT PERSONALITIES

This discussion has become known in part because of the above quote. We do not see class or status struggle in this discussion like what is seen in the political discussions in Seniornet, because we do not insult individual personalities or even mention them at all.

Despite what the general populace might think, I remind you that the word "GOOGLE" is not a synonym for "SEARCH ENGINE". There are many others. MSN has just come out with a very good new one. Will and Ariel Durant did not have these, and we should also remember that what they wrote in these books took place before 1935. If any of us here does one tenth of what Will and Ariel Durant did with their lives, I would consider them very successful human beings.

Flat on Her Back Historical Musings From Mal, via Dorian Express

Mal:-Flat on your back, not withstanding, we see the old (poetic form) Mal coming back. Did Dorian leave Volume IV with you? Are you able to read while lying down? Some nursing homes have laptops available to the residents. If you make a big enough fuss, they might lend one to you.

Robby

Jan Sand:

I liked your link, but I shall have to finish it later.

Durant has seemed a bit subjective in his writing, but other than that I am enjoying the exchange and learning things.

I am more or less housebound and have been for about a year and a half. It has been an up and down year-thinking I would get over one thing when another surfaced. For awhile, I fought this because I have always been independent and self-sufficient - but eventually, I began to read books I had not had time to read before, and then I came back to the computer. It has been a treat for me to visit here. I know I have a different look on life than many do, but, subjective or not, I knew I could look at Durant as a new experience in learning and appreciate the different views among my fellow posters.

MeriJo:--We all have a different look on life than many do but that is the secret of this discussion's success.

Robby

Robby:

That is true!

I think that there is a new class distinction in my country at least. Its not by breeding but by wealth. Since we had dramatic economic reforms beginning in the 1980's the gap has widened in our society. We had a very egalitarian society in my childhood with good health and education systems for all. Since the user pays philosophy has come into our society the rich are much much richer and the poor much poorer. This has created an obvious class distinction in our society.

It is very divisive in that Private schools now abound and the State schools in poor areas have gone down hill. We now pay for tertiary education so that its much harder for the poor to pick themselves up by their bootstraps as they used to do by taking advantage of our free college education that I might add many of our Politicians enjoyed,

Class distinction in the 21st century is determined by wealth in my country.

Carolyn

Wealth has always been a class distinction. It is merely more divisive today than it has been in the past. There were, in the past, racial and religious distinctions. They have melted to a degree but wealth has supplanted all of them. To a degree there was some permiability in society by gifted people who excelled in the arts and this has persisted.

Jan sent me an article on SMART PEOPLE WHO MAKE DUMB ARGUMENTS. . . and eventually I applied it to one of my pet peeves. . . in my field of ART. It's classy to be an artist if you really are one but you have to prove it because there is an egalitarian theory that everyone is and can. . . which by the way is not true. Anyhow I posted this there and I think it also applies here.

guest Guest

Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: smart people bad ideas Reply with quote [size=18][/size]HI all. this article makes me think about all the smart people I know who refuse to learn about abstraction in art. They understand abstraction in math and designing structures and even in thinking about space but in art . . .? my thing, it's always. "that's very nice but I don't really care for,understand,appreciate, or like abstraction" . It's a total shut down. I'm an artist who paints abstract after many years of experience and training and I have to let them see realistic or figurative stuff before they will understand that I'm not some parrot tossing paint. This is a blind spot for smart people who think of art as not having enough logic to make it worth their while. P.S. I don't spell very well and make lots of typos and don't always fix them. :twisted: :twisted:[b][/b]

. . . . Claire

In recent years, there seems to have occurred, at least in my part of the country, an homogenization of people. There are many who wear the standard uniform of jeans, white T-shirt, with or without printing and the ubiquitous baseball cap either turned backward or forward.

Unless, I recognize the person, I would not know if I were looking at a president of one of the local banks or a neighbor from around the corner.

For a nation that dislikes the idea of a uniform - it has been Wal-marted into wearing one. Even the women wear it. (Except me - I wore school uniforms for years and I like having my own style.)

I shall never adopt the wearing of a baseball cap back to front! (not unless I want to get skin cancer in our very high UV environment!) I support wearing T Shirt and jeans.

However let me point out that class is still noticeable. The rich wear designer jeans and the T Shirts are Vercace. Class is still obvious. Those who care about class know the difference.

This appeared in today's NY Times.

Class Matters: When the Joneses Wear Jeans

PS I take back my last statement. Like me some may wear designer gear which has been inherited from their children! I have Gucci sunglasses, designer jeans and Vercace shirts. I never paid a penny for any of them as they are all cast offs from my daughters and daughter in laws. However once I get near my car and open the door the game is up. My car is a relic.

MeriJo:--I posted that link to the NY Times a few postings ago.

Robby

Robby:

I completely overlooked it. I'm sorry. I read the one about the Black Society and the one about Karl Marx, but didn't catch this. It may be deleted if possible.

I have the capability of deleting it but have never deleted any posting since we have started SofC. Nobody has done anything wrong. This is a fast moving discussion and it is possible to overlook something.

Robby

MeriJo Further to that quote of yours on Maimonides,( my #184.)

I was just being facetious. My exclamation ( God !) was in regard to the rather (to me), convoluted language used in the piece quoted. I didn't mean to be taken seriously. BG.

Robby your question "Can there be class distinction within an oppressed class?" Too right there can !

Just read of life on the Cotton plantations, as experienced by the Negro slaves, at the hands of their Black supervisors, or of life for conscripts, in the armed services of any nation.

External oppression on any group generates internal oppression, and for any grouping there will always be the privileged and the under privileged. ++ Trevor

And so, taking into consideration the earlier link to the article by Brooks, was Karl Marx right?
(Please, folks, don't go overboard on this one!)
Tomorrow we return to the Judaic Civilization.

Robby

Trevor I agree with you completely. There was class distinction during Hitlers rule and also within the iron curtain countries prior to the fall of the wall. There were the party members and the non party members in any Communist system. Party members have privilege.

In prison there is a class system, The big wheels ( leaders of criminal organisations) and the ordinary prisoner.

Humans seem to be unable to build a civilization with no class system. It first hit me as a kid when I read George Orwells "Animal farm" that no matter how good a system looks from the start and what ideology it is based on sooner or later emerges a privileged class.

Carolyn

The latest Times article makes obvious that the rich can be as foolish as or more so than anybody else. What possibly can be put into a pair of jeans to make them worth $600? I pick mine up for 20€ and they work fine. As for fine food - I can whip up a chocolate cake to compete with the best for under 3€ and take about 20 minutes (outside of the baking time)to do it. I have never come across a tomato sauce as good as the one my mother taught me to make so who needs an expensive restaurant? What I'm trying to say is that the impossibly expensive goods the rich buy to exhibit their wealth is a con. Willie Sutton, the bank robber, was asked why he robbed banks. "That's where the money is." was his reply. The rich are conned out of their wealth because they have it and are foolish enough to believe that the admiration of foolish people is worth their attention and there are always smart people around who are eager to con them.

Jan Sand:

I think it's a mind-set.

Something to mention during a casual conversation.

However, I think if someone wants to give me $600 for a pair of jeans, I'll be glad to accommodate them.

(How nice that you live in Europe? I liked being in Italy when I was there - felt like home.)

It has always seemed to me that wealth is what you can understand and what you can accomplish with that understanding. I delight in making things work and this may or may not have anything to do with money.

Paintings of the expressionist masters were tossed away at their time. A cache of what seemed to be Pollocks work was recently found and their value depends upon whether he really did them, not on what they looked like. I cannot imagine anything more foolish.

PICASSO

Picasso, when seen
At paintings, between,
Was requested about his vocation.

The question was asked
For reasons unmasked
To discover his base motivation.

"I make, I am told",
He said, voice quite bold,
" A series that never ceases
Of many objects
In various ways.
Accepted the sum, masterpieces."

"All that I do
In periods blue
Or monuments sharp and cubic
Get admired by all
On the floor or the wall
Whether subjects are bland or pubic."

"I never distress
That I might make a mess,"
He said in a voice deep and basso.
" I'm a genius well known,
No faults to be shown
As long as I sign it Picasso."

Jan Sand:

You have caught Picasso's personality exactly.

THANKS FOR THE PICASSO POEM. it's saved with some of your other stuff. It also says what I was trying to say BETTER. . . . Claire

There is a blog (audio) in The Nation Magazine about the class problems in the Hamptons, an exclusive section of distal Long Island where Scott Fitzgerald used to hang out.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/audioblog?bid=8&pid=2944

I cannot help but react to Jan Sand’s general remark a few posts earlier. SofC is indeed a place where we could learn a lot about humanity. However, I learnt that when we read or write about historical facts, what we focus on and how we tell the events is very much dependent on the worldview that give the answers to the four basic fundamental questions: (1) where do we come from (ontology), (2) How do we know what we know is true (epistemology), (3) What is the absolute standard of value (axiology) and (4) Who controls the direction of time (teleology). It was a Professor of History that taught me that. At one point he realized that what he had learnt was leading him to accept a set of values that were in contradiction with his basic personal values. It took him five years to deal with this problem. During that time he went back and scrapped each layer of knowledge and its presuppositions he had acquired until he reached ground zero. He discovered that unknowingly, he had accepted entire sets of presuppositions that he did not actually agree with when made explicit. So he redefined his worldview with its basic presuppositions, and from there upon he rebuilt his knowledge and his understanding of history from Antiquity to Modern Times, even current events on the world scene, from that point of view. I looked at the world using his lenses and that changed my life. The conclusion is that some part of our understanding - although a strategic one - depended upon the presuppositions that we had accepted willingly or not, and that some improvements in one’s understanding of the human being can only be achieved if one accepts to revisit the presuppositions on which his worldview is based. The conclusions of any analysis usually follow directly from the presuppositions linked to the worldview at work, whatever subject may be in study.

Welcome back, Daniel! Let us hear more from you.

Robby

Shall we get back to Maimonides?
"It is clear from his work and from the the Guide to the Perplexed, that Maimonides was not openly a freethinker.
"He endeavored as far as he could to reduce Scriptural miracles to natural causes but he taught the divine inspiration of every word in the Pentateuch and the orthodox rabinical doctrine that the whole oral Law had been transmitted by Moses to the elders of Israel.
"Perhaps he felt that the Jews could not claim less for their Scriptures than the Christians and Moslems claimed for them. Perhaps he, too, considered social order impossible without belief in the divine origin of the moral code.
"He was a stern and dictatorial patriot:-'All Israelites are bound to follow everything in the Babylonian Talmud and we should force the Jews of every land to adhere to the customs established by the Talmudic sages.
"A bit more liberal than most Moslems and Christians of the time, he thought that a virtuous and monotheistic non-Jew would go to heaven but he was as severe as Deuteronomy or Torquemada on heretics within the Hebrew pale. Any Jew who repudiated the Jewish Law should be put to death. 'According to my opinion, all members of an Israelite community which has insolently and presumptuously transgressed any of the divine precepts must be put to death.'
"He anticipatd Aquinas in defending death for heresy on the ground that 'cruelty against those who mislead the people to seek vanity is real clemency to the world.' He accepted without trouble the Scriptural penalty of death for witchcraft, murder, incest, idolatry, violent robbery, kidnaping, filial disobedience, and breaking the Sabbath.
"The condition of the Jews migrating from ancient Egypt and trying to form a state out of a destitute and homeless horde may have warranted these laws. The precarious status of the Jews in Christian Europe or Moslem Africa, always subject to attack, conversion, or demoralization, required a hard code to forge order and unity. In these matters (and before the Inquisition) Christian theory, and probably Jewish practice, were more humane than Jewish law.
"A better side of this stern spirit shows in Maimonides' advice to the Jews of his age:-'If heathens should saya to Israelites, 'Surender one of your number to us that we may ut him to death,' they should all suffer death rather than surrender a single Israelite to them.'"
Your comments, please, about Maimonides?

Robby

It seems characteristic of early Jewish as well as early Christian and current Muslim religions that they do not trust God with the power to punish sinners in the way He sees fit. Does not this either indicate a distrust in the powers of God or a cynical denial of God's power altogether so that men must police faith?

I'm not arguing against religion or questioning the existence of God, merely curious as to the psychology of the doctrine.

There seems to be a strong parallel between religious rules and common sense for individual and group survival at the time of the early Hebrews. We have already discussed how the "religious" dietary rules made sense in a time without refrigeration and government inspectors.

This putting to death of individuals who did not follow the rules helped keep deviants from the law from undermining society. The fact that the punishment was cloaked in religious regulations gave imposition of the punishment a more spiritual grounding which could not be questioned.

Rich

Perhaps there are problems wih trichinosis and pigs but why forbid the eating of meat and milk products together to such an extent that observant Jews must maintain separate sets of dishes and refrigerators and stoves. The two foods are perfectly acceptable separately. I have very bright friends who observe these practices assiduously. I don't fuss with them about it because I prefer not to make them uncomfortable but it strikes me as on the edge of psychosis.

and death together wield great power historically if the package is not examined in the light of the times. And even now the religious right in general supports the death penalty as if ridding the world of Gods errors, but never admitting to them. Instead having historical precedent. As usual I respond emotionally with shame and disgust. . . . Claire

Death may have been the more expedient way to deal wih dissidents in those days. (No prison system) However, there was always the option of sending one into exile. Perhaps there was more fear of the idea than of the person.

Reasons for separating milk and meat:

http://www.chelm.org/jewish/kashrut/l2.nonmeat_regulation.html

MeriJo

I'm sorry, but those were descriptions of acceptabilty, not reasons. Why these rules were made is not clear.

The reference describes "food" as something a dog would eat. As far as I know, dogs enjoy pork and shellfish and dead skunks and fragments of dead squirrels and quite a few nondescript horrible smelly little dried things that have been hit by traffic and dried in the sun.

Merijo, sorry this site is certainly not an authority on koshrut or kosher food. He sounds very much a dilettante.

Pork actually holds more toxins than other meats. Pigs do not sweat like other animals and from what I read Pork holds about 50% more toxins than other types of meat. The information I got does not come from any religious group but from a health lobby.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/1300.html

I once read that you should never refer to a person sweating.

Horses "sweat"

Men "perspire" and

Women "glow"

But what's all this got to do with Maimonides?

Rich

was on the right track with one of his teachings. He insisted that God did not look like man, and that it was a mistake to characterize Him as having human attributes.

That put Maimonides at odds with the passage in the bible that tells us we were created by God in his own image and likeness.

Rich

One can speculate, of course, on what God might look like, but I would hardly think it makes much sense without concrete data. But then, of course, introducing sense into the whole business is a novel thought.

Well Rich we were just talking about pork and dairy.

Carolyn

Bubbles:

I defer to you for I am sure you would know. It was just a quick find for me on Google.

Jan Sand:

I interpreted the reason to be to assure the Jewish people of clean and healthy food. It was advice given, I think, very early in the coming together of the Jewish people, of ways to keep healthy.

I think the time has come to re-post the following. I am not implying that anyone is disregarding the ground rules. I am merely cautioning all participants to choose their words carefully.

Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."

For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.
2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."
3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Robby

"The Mishna Torah irritated the rabbis.
"Few could forgive the presumption of aiming to displace the Talmud. Many Jews were scandalized by the reported assertion of Maimonides that he who studies the Law is higher than he who obeys it.
"Nevertheless the book made its author the leading Jew of the time. All Eastern Israel accepted him as its counselor and sent him questions and problems. It seemed for a generation that the Gaonate had been revived.
"But Maimonides, not pausing to enjoy his renown, began work at once on his next book. Having codified and clarified the Law for orthodox Jews, he turned to the task of restoring to the Jewish fold those who had been seduced by philosophy or lured into the Qaraite communities of Heretical Jews in Egypt, Palestine, or North Africa.
"After another decade of labor he issued to the Jewish world his most famous work, the Guide to the Perplexed (1190).
"Written in Arabic with Hebrew characters, it was soon translated into Hebrew as Moreh Nebuchim, and into Latin, and aroused one of the bitterest intellectual tempests of the thirteenth century.
"Says the introduction:-'My primary object is to explain certain words occurring in the Prophetic books' -- i.e. the Old Testament.
"Many Biblical terms and passages have several meanings, literal, metaphorical, or symbolical. Taken literally, some of them are a stumbling block to persons sincerely religious but also respectful of reason as man's highest faculty. Such persons must not be forced to choose betwen religion without reason or reason without religion.
"Since reason was implanted in man by God, it cannot be contrary to God's revelation. Where such contradictions occur, Maimonides suggest, it is because we take literally expressions adapted to the imaginative and pictorial mentality of the simple unlettered people to whom the Bible was addressed.
"From this starting point Maimonides advances to a discussion of deity.
"That some supreme intelligence rules the universe he deduces from the evidences of design in nature. But he ridicules the notion that all things have been made for the sake of man. Things exist only bcause God, their source and life exists. "If it could be supposed that He does not exist, it would follow that nothing else could possibly exist.'
"Since in this way it is essential that God exist, His existence is identical with His essence. Now 'a thing which has in itself the necessity of existence, cannot have for its existence any cause whatever. Since God is intelligent, He must be incorporeal, therefore all Biblical passages implying physical organs or attributes in God must be interpreted figuratively.
"In truth, says Maimonides (probably following the Mutazilites), we cannot know anything of God except that He exists. Even the nonphysical terms that we use of Him -- intelligence, omnipotence, mercy, affection,unity, will -- are homonyms, i.e. they have different meanings when applied to God than as used of man.
"Just what ttheir meaning is in God's case we shall never know. We can never define Him. We must not ascribe to Him any positive attributes, qualities, or predicates whatever.
"When the Bible tells how God or an angel 'spoke' to the Prophets, we must not imagine a voice or sound. 'Prophecy consists in the most perfect development of the imaginative faculty.' It is 'an emanation from the Divine Being' through dream or ecsatatic vision. What the Prophets relate took place not in actuality, but only in such vision or dream, and must in many cases be interpreted allegorically. 'Some of our sages clearly stated that Job never existed and that he is a poetic fiction revealing the most important truths.
"Any man, if he develops his faculties to their height, is capable of such prophetic revelations. For human reason is a continuing revelation, not basically different from the vivid insight of the prophet."
Much is being discussed in the news about "Intelligent Design." Please read the preceding post before reacting to this.

Robby

Mmm I like this Maimonides. I can't argue much with his philosophy so far.

Carolyn

The addendum referring to site behavior indicates either that one must accept what Maimonides says without analysis or behave in such a way as it is perhaps faulty but one is not permitted to comment. On that basis I see no point in participating further. If adherents are granted such absolute protections to their sensitivity that one may not apply reason to their doctrine then I cannot see the point of examining it.

this is an unfornate term to use in your guidlines . . . .ENFORCED . . . something about it gets my back up. . . do you really think it belongs in this forum where TONE is so important. I don't much care for this phrase either . . . "not permitted. " and as for religion. maybe I'll wait out the age of faith. I understand there is hope. . . i.e. the age of reason . . . Claire

I am delighted to find the dicussion still working on Maimonides. His description of a sage has been on my desk for many years to guide me in dealing with people. I haven't always followed his advice but when I haven't and I later read his message I admonish myself and resolve to do better next time.

"The sage is gentle in speech. He does not raise his voice. He avoids exaggeration and affected speech. He judges everyone favorably. He dwells on the merits of others and never speaks disparagingly of anyone."

Those of you who know me know that I need guidance of this kind to keep me in bounds. Robby's recent description of the rules reminds me of Maimonides advice.

In his "Guide to the Perplexed" Maimonides tried to reduce Scriptural miracles to natural causes. He attempts to explain certain words in the Prophetic books-words and passages have several meanings, he says, and taken literally some of them are a stumbling block to persons sincerely religious but also respectful of reason as man's highest faculty.

"Such persons must not be forced to choose between religion without reason or reason without religion.

"Does the rational, but observant, Jew treat the stories of creation as allegory, does he think they are a child's fairy tale and not worthy of him, or does he take them as the literal truth?"

"Pleasanter is Maimonides' picture of the scholar growing into a sage.
"He approved the rabbinical saying that 'a bastard who is a scholar of the Law takes precedence of an ignorant high priest.'
"He advised the scholar to give three hours daily to earning a living, nine hours to studying the Torah. Believing environment more influential than heredity, he counseled the student to seek association with good and wise men. The scholar should not marry until he has reached the maturity of his learning, has acquired a trade, and has bought a home.
"He may marry four wives but should cohabit with each of them only once a month.
"Although connubial intercourse with one's wife is always permitted, this relation too should be invested by the scholar with sanctity. He should not be always with his spouse, like a rooster, but should fulfill his marital obligation on Friday nights. When cohabiting, neither husband nor wife should be in a state of intoxication, lethargy, or melancholy.
"The wife should not be asleep at the time."
Your comments, please?

Robby

Here are some comments about MAIMONIDES, MARRIAGE, AND LOVE.

Robby

Getting married in Israel, bride and groom have to go through a "fatherly talk" with the rabbi and/or his wife before receiving the licence allowing them to go ahead with the wedding.

In my case that talk was very much on the lines advised by Maimonides. The rabbinitz also stressed the importance of obedience and meek acceptance so as to allow the husband to direct his thoughts to a higher plane. Except for the number of wives, nothing has changed.

Maimonides, Marriage and Love:

Well-spoken advice, really, for all of the world to follow. It is beautifully written - almost poetic - and therefore stays with one.

Thank you, Robby.

we must be o different pages. I found the advise to be confusing and contradictory. . . but then marriage and love can be two different things. . . confusing and contradictory at best. . . Claire

Why is it forbidden to cook milk and meat in the same recipe? The original law was the following, "don't cook a kid in its mother's milk". And the reason behind the law was to forbid offering sacrifice to that goddess. The reason was forgotten, but the 'pilpul' went on and on, turning into a detailed dietary law, even deciding how many hours have to pass between consuming these two kinds of food.

Maimonides says a person can not be forced to marry but once married he had better "make a Sukkah or we'll beat him till his soul leaves." On the other hand a man better not be so desperate for a sukkah that he plays the rooster with his wife or come at her while she is asleep. Maimonides seems to be assuming that women are passive vessels in this business of making a sukkah. Therefore, he expects her to be annoyed if awakened by an interest in her person. I wonder if these are Maimonides own rules or one of the 600 odd mitsveh passed down from Moses.

JUstin, don't forget that while the man is intense in his studying the Torah and the mitzvoth, this poor woman looks after her house, cooks, washes, irons, sews, cares for her parents, has a kid every year, educate her children, visits the needy and the sick, brings food to the mourning, helps newborns coming to the world or looks after other children when a neighbor has a new baby, etc. etc. No wonder she needs an undisturbed sleep!

Maimonides tells us, the wise man will avoid eating in restaurants. Sherman Billingsly would not have liked that advice and many wives would feel deprived by the advice. Perhaps in the Reb's day restaurants were missing something we have today-speed and standardization.What ever did they do without Mickey D and Kentucky fried?

Justin they ate healthy unprocessed food and obesity was a rareity!

carolyn

The wise man will beware of false Messiahs but will never lose faith that some day the real Messiah will come and restore Israel to Zion. Does anyone recognize that the Messiah came in 1948 in the guise of the United Nations.

Sorry Bubble; All that slipped my mind for a moment. I am sure there is much more you could add to that list of duties. However, TGIF.

hegeso:

I had looked up the reason, but then our discussion went into a different direction: The following is from Thomas Cahill's book, "The Gifts of the Jews, How a Tribe of Desert Nomads Changed the Way Everyone Thinks and Feels."

A single sentence in Exodus,...__"You are not to boil a kid in the milk of its mother," probably, a proscription against cruelty_

There is more, but the above seems to apply to the initial rule.

winsum:

As I read that link, I saw most references to Jewish life - their customs and manners. Underlying all that advice was a truly kind voice addressing marriage for the Jews in Maimonides time. I also noticed a reasonable view for the Jews of that time in reference to marriage.

I think that the section, "Completing the Circle" summed it up for me.

So much in the article was in reference to Jewish belief of the time that I sorted through them to get to the basic element of "loving one's neighbor." That element was the most universal, I think. I think, too, that the collection of words used to express the subjects were rather pleasing in the way they were used.

Also, Maimomides, in medieval times, demonstrates a more modern view than Jewish law in the following:

Nonetheless, Maimonides states that a court cannot force a person to marry, on the other hand the Rosh says that a court can use force in order to have person fulfill his obligation of procreation.

Evangelical Christians, seeking a way to share the stage with the current, popular, biological theory called evolution have introduced a new hypotheses called intelligent design. God is not mentioned in the hypothesis. One is simply asked to investigate the possibility that an intelligent hand is at work in the design of man,etc. Of course, if it turns out that an intelligent hand is at work here, then clearly that hand belongs to God.

Maimonides presents the same idea. "That some supreme intelligence rules the universe which he deduces from the evidence of design in nature." In Maimonides time an alternative idea was not available.

Since that time man has learned to reason using improved tools.We have learned that in the face of uncertainty man can speculate and experiment to find a confirmable explanation for the design and lack of design in nature.

Someday the current theory of evolution may be superceded by another more useful theory. But that can happen only if the theory is open to challenge. Unfortunately, for the evangelical Christians, the concept of an intelligent designer is not open to challenge. Once accepted it will never be dropped in favor of a more useful explanation. It is at that time, when the concept of an intelligent designer prevails, that man stops learning about himself and his universe.

It may surprise you all to know that everything in nature is designed on a ration of 1:5. That includes the length of lower arms, lower limbs and every thing else you can think of.

How do I know this. Just yesterday on National Radio here in NZ they were discussing this mathematical precision in the natural world.

Carolyn

I believe that evolution is a legitimate theory with possibly more examples of proof than intelligent design.

My favorite example has been the lovely diamond ring that newly-engaged women show off.

Also, if I take a trip to Eastern California to the White Mountains there one will find the oldest rocks in the world. I'll have to ask my Earth Science graduate granddaughter for the exact location, but she was delighted to be on the field trip to that site.

I've been all over it trailering, camping, moutains deserts petrogliffs etc. bnad it's mostly sedamentary rock which used to be at the bottom of the sea. .. not that old. . .sediment washed down into the sea to form the rocks.. . I think the TETONS are very old. . .but as to the oldest? ????

"Did God create the world in time, or is the universe of matter and motion, as Aristotle thought, eternal?
"Here, says Maimonides, reason is baffled. We can prove neither the eternity nor the creation of the world. Let us therefore hold to our fathers' faith in its creation.
"He proceeds to interpret the creation story of Genesis allegorically: -- Adam is active form or spirit. Eve is passive matter, which is the root of all evil. The serpent is imagination.
"But evil is no positive entity. It is merely the negation of good. Most of our misfortunes are due to our own fault. Other evils are evil only from a human or limited standpoint. A cosmic view might discover in every evil the good or need of the whole.
"God permits to man the free will that lets him be a man. Man sometimes chooses evil.
"God has foreseen the choice but does not determine it."
OK, folks. Be a temporary Maimonides. Let your imagination fly!

Robby

""Here, says Maimonides, reason is baffled. We can prove neither the eternity nor the creation of the world.
He's right about this. . . only the future will give us the answers we need and maybe not even then, so why should we then invent some? it's an interesting thing to do. . . and philosophers like to do that. invent ideas and explanations and fairy tales. . .as long as there are no explanations . . . why not?

Claire

God created the world in time.

Genesis is written in an allegorical form, but as for the rest, Maimonides and I part company.

"Here, says Maimonides, reason is baffled. We can prove neither the eternity nor the creation of the world. Let us therefore hold to our fathers' faith in its creation.

Oh, why? But then again, why not ? Pretty indeterminate sort of argument. Like listening to a sermon, and being left with nothing.

Then again is this really the practice of the Jewish believers ? :- "He may marry four wives but should cohabit with each of them only once a month.

"Although connubial intercourse with one's wife is always permitted, this relation too should be invested by the scholar with sanctity. He should not be always with his spouse, like a rooster, but should fulfill his marital obligation on Friday nights. When cohabiting, neither husband nor wife should be in a state of intoxication, lethargy, or melancholy.

"The wife should not be asleep at the time."

Sex by the Numbers, the Calendar, ( Friday nights only), so never in daylight. Strange how some self appointed guides to correct living, can get themselves all tied up in sexual knots.

I wonder what happens when a husband has 4 wives and some February comes along that has only 3 Fridays? Or again, what does one do when there are 5 Fridays in a month?

MeriJo Your two sentence comment :-"I believe that evolution is a legitimate theory with possibly more examples of proof than intelligent design. My favorite example has been the lovely diamond ring that newly-engaged women show off."

It is probably my fault, but I can not see the logical connection between those two statements. Could you flesh it out for me please ? ++ Trevor

winsum

The geologic makeup of the White Mountains is of quartzitic sandstone and granite bedrock. A large part of the soils on these slopes have been swept away by the extreme conditions. Also present are extensive outcrops of dolomite (limestone) a very ancient rock first laid down under water 500 million years ago, then slowly uplifted through time. Numerous fossils of this period can be found here. It has been speculated that one could have walked chest deep across the early Paleozoic sea located in the region at that time. The dolomite is low in nutrients but of a higher moisture content than the surrounding sandstone. Because these soil types inhibit the growth of other plants, they provide a competition-free arena for the slow-growing bristlecone pines.

more:

http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/WhiteMts.html

3Kings:

My explanation is very, very simple. It is as follows:

The diamond ring starts out as debris on the surface of the earth. Ensuing years of further debris piled upon old debris pushes down the old debris and applies pressure. The extraordinary heat that builds up from the older debris being pushed on by the recent layers of debris in time turns it to peat - continuing over many years to carbon and then to coal continuing even longer to harder coal - and after many more millions of years of high heat and enormous pressure this coal is purified into a lovely diamond layer preferably white, clear, but does come in other colors - yellow diamonds used for industry, and blue-white -and others of which I am not sure. It is the heat and pressure combination over eons of time that develops a diamond.

All you may ever want to know about diamonds and more from the following link:

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/diamonds/structure.html

Let me try agaim on the intelligent design question. All the world could appear to be in the ratio of 5 to 1 and the concept of intelligent design would still be the wrong approach. The concept has a fixed conclusion with out allowance for alternative explanations. If the concept of I.D. were accepted by the scientific community further learning would come to a halt. Why bother to look for an answer to puzzles that have a known solution.

Justin:

I'm in agreement with you. I did not realize that it was a new approach for those who believe in Creationism.

The nuns told us about evolution when I was in elementary school in the thirties. It was an acceptable theory with regard to the earth's growth.

Intelligent design has tried to become important in years past, I think.

MeriJo; There are three new books out on the topic. The evangelicals think they have not advanced their cause by proposing the schools teach Genesis in addition to or instead of evolution so they are trying a new approach. Intelligent design does not mention God so they think they can use the concept to advance their agenda with less opposition. I don't know why these people are so intent on insisting that the idea of God is a testable concept. They don't believe that notion yet they put Genesis and the role of an intelligent designer out as a theory.

When I was in elementary school in the thirties, the nuns relied on the catechism to teach us about the origin of the world. You were very lucky to be exposed to other possibilities. My nuns were Dominicans. I remember one who sputtered and spit at me when I refused to invert the fraction in order to divide. Needless to say I never forgot how to divide fractions.

Maimonides "suggests that when contradictions occur in the Pentateuch, it is because we take literally expressions adapted to the imaginative and pictorial mentality of the simple, unlettered, people to whom the Bible was addressed."

The same idea was extant in the minds of Medieval clerics. Painters and sculptors were hired, as a result, to ornament churches with the Christian story. The laity was largely unlettered and while they heard the message when the gospel was read it was not sufficient to fully implant the ideas in the minds of all.

more brevity please. as for limestone which is calcium and dolomite e which combines it with magnisium I think I think. both were elements I used in my ceramics in fact I used many of them and if they are laid down in a shallow sea they are sedimentary deposits which have rizen into hills and mountains and washed down again. The granite probably stays put but the dome at yosemite is granite and probably more permanent and what's that got to do with anything except that you're trying to teach me from your exhaulted teaching position stuff I know already from years of ceramic chemistry and art and traveling all of california and living all but two of my years here. You're preaching to the choir and the choir is asleep and snoring lightly . . . claire

Claire there is no need to put down Meri Jo. I think you are not being very kind.

Carolyn

I'm tired of encyclopedic posts that are disorganized, hard to follow and patronizing....just got fed up. sorry about that. . . . some one needed to tell her. . . .claire

"Some one needed to tell her."
Sorry, Claire. No one in this discussion needs to tell any one else what to say and how to say it. Over and over again, it is important to repeat to ourselves our "mantra" in this forum -- issues not personalities, issues not personalities. The issue at the moment is Maimonidies and his preachings.

Robby

Did Maimonides ever talked of the ...

No. Silence is wisdom too. I'll be back in another day or two! Bubble

"Is man immortal?
"Maimonides applied to the full his capacity for mystifying his readers. In the Guide he avoids the question, except to say that 'the soul that remains after death is not the soul that lives in a man when he is born.' The latter -- the 'potential intellect' -- is a function of the body and dies with it. What survives is the 'acquired' or 'active intellect' which existed before the body and is never a function of it.
"This Aristotelian-Averroist view apparently denied individual immortality. In the Mishna Torah Maimonides rejected the resurrection of the body, ridiculed the Moslem notion of a physically epicurean paradise and represented this, in Islam and Judaism alike, as a concession to the imagination and the moral needs of the populace.
"In the Guide he added that 'incorporeal entities can only be numbered when they are forces situated in a body.' Which seemed to imply that the incorporeal spirit which survived the body had no individual consciousness. As physical resurrection had become a central doctrine of both Judaism and Muhammedanism, many protests were aroused by these skeptical intimations.
"Transliterated into Arabic, the Guide made a stir in the Moslem world. A Mohammedan scholar, Abd al-Latif, denounced it as 'undermining the principles of all faiths by the very means with which it appears to buttress them.
"Saladin was at this time engaged in a life-and-death struggle with the Crusaders. Always orthodox, he now more than ever resented heresy as threatening Moslem morale in the heat of a holy war. In 1191 he ordered the execution of Surawardi, a mystic heretic.
"In the same month Maimonides issued a Maqala, or discourse 'On the Resurrection of the Dead.'
"He again expressed his doubts about corporeal immortality but announced that he accepted it as an article of faith."

Robby

"God permits to man the free will that lets him be a man. Man sometimes chooses evil."

So many evils are attributed to God instead of 'free will' and arguments that He created man so man should should not do evil is passing the buck. Doesn't man have any responsibility at all in his actions? Whatever happened to Mars? could it be that that planet was inhabited at one time and was destroyed by its own polluted environment created by its greedy inhabitants?

Durant says: " Most of our misfortunes are due to our own fault. Other evils are evil only from a human or limited standpoint. A cosmic view might discover in every evil the good or need of the whole."

"Did God create the world in time, or is the universe of matter and motion, as Aristotle thought, eternal?"

I believe that everything point to eternity and I don't see a reason to believe otherwise.

Diamonds and gold, the two most precious minerals for the adornment of beautiful women. Interesting about its formation MeriJo.

Every post has value in one form or another and they provoke different reactions to different people.

Éloïse

Here is another article in the series on CLASS. As I said previously, Durant has made much of class differences as we moved through the various cultures.

Robby

Maimonides preached union every Friday night whether you wanted to or not. How romantic. I guess he never thought of a what a little candlelight, a glass of wine, and a Sinatra record playing low in the background could have done for the ancient Hebrews.

Rich

winsum:

You are right. It was too wordy. I was focusing on the age of the rocks, and I thought your response implied that sedimentary rocks could not be as old. As you see they are.

My post actually wasn't mine, but an excerpt from the link I also had posted.

Rich, I can just see it! lol

The shabbat candles glowing, the kiddush wine (so sweet) and the dear man singing some blessings since they had no record players at that time. How romantic! Maybe a plate of home made rose water flavored sweets on the side, for later on too?

Maimonides had some interesting ideas. His allegorical interpretation of Adam and Eve was almost a kind of yin and yang. He thought of the two sides of human nature as spirit and matter. I always thought of them as intellect and emotion. But I would never have thought of the serpent as imagination. Why should imagination be considered evil? To me, imagination is one of the best assets we humans have.

I would have to agree with that statement - that Evil is the negative of good and that sometimes we as being mere men and woman have limitations of seeing why something we conceive as evil could be anything else. But this statement is just seeing this concept from a different point of view. Imagination evil! I suppose it really depends on what one imagines.

whatever . . . I do appreciate the brevity. . . . claire

The New York Times has a series going o it. In order to view you need to sign up but it's free. Here is what is being offered.

"ABOUT THE SERIES A team of reporters spent more than a year exploring ways that class - defined as a combination of income, education, wealth and occupation - influences destiny in a society that likes to think of itself as a land of unbounded opportunity.

• Day 1: Overview • Day 2: Health • Day 3: Marriage • Day 4: Religion • Day 5: Education • Day 6: Immigration • Day 7: New Status Markers • Day 8: The 'Relo' Class • Sunday: The Hyper-Rich

Learning Network"

Claire

with an interesting coverage of

THE LINKS a relocation family

Claire

Claire - isn't that the same link Robby posted in #290?

It was an interesting article.

Sun

it could be I got slapped down and have been skipping alot of his posts. . . .Claire

There is one thing disturbing about the Genesis allegory. Woman is described as passive, which is the root of all evil. It is one thing to say woman is passive. That description is a male defense mechanism. But to say that woman (nee passive matter)is the root of all evil is an evil thing to say. It's consequences are witch hunts and burnings and servitude. This concept has deeper roots than Maimonides who just passed it on.

Claire:-I am confused about your announcing the series on Class presented by the NY Times. I have been giving links to every single one of the articles in the series since it began two weeks ago. Skipping posts is certainly your privilege but it prevents you from keeping up with the information that the other participants gain whether they be my links or those presented by others.

Robby

That article is very timely. When I flew from Florida to Montreal about 20 years ago it was after nightfall. The sky was clear and we could see the ground all the way as we flew north. I don’t remember seeing one area without lights, such as a forest or a farm and I was thinking that the eastern United States was one giant suburb with a city now and then all the way from Florida to Montreal. We flew over the New York area what seemed like an hour.

This family in the link literally lives in their car driving to work, driving the kids to their extracurricular activities, for shopping and for recreation. Now what kind of a life is this? I know a man who works a two-hour drive away from his home. Of course the house is lovely, but he is hardly ever home to enjoy it.

It’s funny where people set their priorities today.

There has to be pressure from within their social group. It may provide a way for the family to socialize.

I heard that there is a middle-management group of people who do move every few years because of the husband's company transfers. This is a market for realtors who quickly learn the people who are likely to be in this group. The average stay in a house is about 3 years. That seems so short a time. If there are children, the strain on some of these youngsters must be very hard. One wonders what sort of thinking develops in such an atmosphere of frequent moves.

"Maimonides busied himself in his work as a physician, and in writing resonsa to doctrinal and ethical inquiries from the Jewish world.
"When (1199) Samuel ben Judah ibn Tibbon, who was translating the Guide into Hebrew, proposed to visit him, he warned him not to expect 'to confer with me on any scientific subject for even one hour, either by day or by night.
'For the following is my daily occupation. I dwell in Fustat and the Sultan resides at Cairo two Sabbath days' journey (a mile and a half) ditant. My duties to the regent (Saladin's son) are very heavy. I am obligated to visit him every day, early in the morning.
'When he or any of his children, or any inmate of his harem is indisposed, I dare not quit Cairo, but must stay during the greater part of the day in the palace.
'I do not return to Fustat until the afternoon. Then I am almost dying with hunger. I find the antechambers filled with people, theologians, bailiffs, friends, and foes. I dismount from my animal, wash my hands, and beg my patients to bear with me while I partake of some refreshments -- the only meal I take in twenty-four hours.
'Then I attend my patients until nightfall, sometimes until two hours in the night, or even later. I prescribe while lying on my back from fatigue. When night falls I am so exhausted I can scarcely speak.
'In consequence of this, no Israelite can have any private interview with me exept on the Sabbath. On that day the whole congregation, or at least a majority, come to me after the morning service, when I instruct them. We study together until noon, when they depart.'
"He was prematurely worn out. Richard I of England sought him as personal physician but Maimonides could not accept the invitation. Saladin's vizier, seeing his exhaustion, pensioned him.
"He died in 1204, aged sixty-nine. His remains were conveyed to Palestine where his tomb may still be seen in Tiberias."
Robby

Where is the allegory of Genesis of which many of you speak? I have a completely different notion of the story of Genesis - no passive Eve - and no symbolic characteristics.

The Maimonidean War

"Maimonides' influence was felt in Islam and Christendom as well as in the Jewish world.
"Mohammedan pundits studied the Guide under the direction of Jewish teachers. Latin translations of it were used at the universities of Montpellier and Padua.
"It was frequently quoted at Paris by Alexander of Hales and William of Auvergne. Albertus Magnus followed the lead of Maimonides on many points.
"St. Thomas often considered the views of Rabbi Moyses, if only to reject them. Spinoza, with perhaps some lack of historical understanding, criticized Maimonides' allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures as a disingenuous attempt to preserve the authority of the Bible. But he hailed the great rabbi as 'the first who openly declared that Scripture must be accommodated to reason.
"He took from Maimonides some ideas on prophecy miracles, and the attributes of God."
Robby

MeriJo I still do not see how the existence of diamonds can be used as an argument against Intelligent Design. As this is now off topic, could I ask you to e-mail me on this matter, if you can spare the time?

It is not that I'm a believer in ID. I have been a fan of Evolution since I read my first elementary text on Geology and the radio-activity dating of rocks in primary school. I would like to get clear in my mind your thinking on the subject.++ Trevor

MeriJo: The Genesis allegory is described at the bottom of page 412 in Durant. Robby posted some of the description in posting 272.

I think you see the diamond as a rock that over time evolved into a diamond.Is that right?

Robby’s combination of posts #247& #248 can indeed be felt like an impossible path to tread. I will invoke the temporary "relaxation of rules" posted in #272. Of course, what follows is my personal opinion. The subject is Maimonides

When I read the interpretations given by Maimonides of God and his intentions about the creation or the rules that he gave, it feels like I am listening to someone who is talking about a third person whom he has never met and knows nothing about. Indeed, Maimonides uses the word of God as his source, which entitles him to feel like he knows him. But then, he does admit that :

In truth, says Maimonides (probably following the Mutazilites), we cannot know anything of God except that He exists.

In the same book that he used to given interpretation of the "death rule", it is possible to read about the nature of the relationship that God wants to have with his people, his spouse: a relation of love. The cry of his heart for his beloved is riveting in the books of the Prophets. Why else would he feel it necessary for him to open a way by which humanity can be reconciled with him, a way which he announces also through the Prophets?

"In Judaism itself Maimonides' influence was revolutionary.
"His own posterity carried on his work as scholars and Jews. His son Abraham ben Moses succeeded him as Nagid and court physician in 1205. His grandson David ben Abraham and his great-grandson Solomon ben Abraham also succeeded to the leadership of the Egyptian Jews. All three continued the Malmonidean tradition in philosophy.
"For a while it became fasiionable to Aristotelize the Bible through allegorical legerdemain and to reject the historicity of its narratives. Abraham and Sarah, for example, were merely a legend representing matter and form. Jewish ritual laws had only a symbolical purpose and truth.
"The whole structure of Judaic theology seemed about to fall upon the heads of the rabbis. Some of them fought back vigorously -- Samuel ben Ali of Palstine, Abraham ben David of Posquieres, Meir ben Todros Halevi Abulafia of Toledo, Don Astrue of Lumel, Solomon ben Abraham of Montpellier, Johan ben Abraham Gerundi of Spain and many more.
"They protested against 'selling the Scriptures to the Greeks,' denounced the attempt to replace the Talmud with philosophy, deplored Maimonides doubts on immortality and rejected his unknowable God as a metaphorical abstraction that would never stir a soul to piety or prayer.
"The followers of the mystic Cabala joined in the attack and desecrated Maimonides' tomb."
In following the teachings of Maimonides, the Scripture was "sold to the Greeks?" The Bible was looked at through the eyes of Aristotle? Philosophy took precedence over theology? The use of allegories was merely a trick? The old Biblical stories were merely legends?
Your comments, please.

Robby

This ESSAY perhaps tells more about Maimonides than you want to know but asks: "Did Maimonides reduce the Jewish faith to philosophy? Were the Founders of Religions impostors?" The author states that "the very name of Maimonides inspires awe and respect amongst Christian, Moslem and Jewish circles alike."

Robby

Some brief comments for comparison's sake about ARISTOTELIAN PHILOSOPHY.

Robby

3Kings:

I'll email you.

Justin:

I see the whole process of matter turning - evolving - into something else, and not being created into its final and completed form immediately.

Thanks for the information: I'll have to get a copy of the book.

I agree MeriJo. A diamond is a nice inanimate example of evolution.One tends to think of the process as confined to living things but that's only because most examples refer to living things. Is everything in the world subject to change? Are there no constants that have not been created by man?

Daniel: Do you agree with Maimonides that scripture must accomodate reason?

I had forgotten that Aristotle was so opposed to experimentation that he assumed men had more teeth than women simply because it never occurred to count a woman's teeth. I always thought that was funny.

Justin: Maimonides made his choice of presuppositions:

This Aristotelian-Averroist view apparently denied individual immortality. In the Mishna Torah Maimonides rejected the resurrection of the body, ridiculed the Moslem notion of a physically epicurean paradise and represented this, in Islam and Judaism alike, as a concession to the imagination and the moral needs of the populace (post #288)

He did not see at all the plan that God had for humanity, the one presented in his written Word: to deliver Man from his fate on earth, to take him into his eternal Kingdom and to live the passionate love relationship he desperately wants to live with Humanity, a relationship based on justice.

Not because Maimonides couldn’t: he made a choice at one specific point during his lifetime. How well guided his choice was, is a matter for appreciation. I believe that Man’s capacity to reason is a learning faculty that can be raised to levels that man himself cannot imagine. Man can make a decision to let his learning capacity be shaped by scriptures; he can also decide to shape scriptures according to his mind. Clearly, Maimonides chose the latter.

I wonder if Joseph in the book of Genesis could even imagine that one day he would be Prime Minister of Egypt, given that he was a prisoner in a society in which there was no code of justice, apart from Pharao's will.

Daniel: Yes, clearly Maimonides chose the latter, as you say but do you concur in his judgement that scripture must accomodate reason? Is he right, in your judgement, in allegorizing Genesis?

"The Maimonidean war divided the Jewish communities of southern France precisely when orthodox Christianity was waging there a war of extermination against the Albigensian heresy.
"As Christian orthodoxy defended itself against rationalism by banning the books of Aristotle and Averroes from the universities, so Rabbi Solomon ben Abraham of Montpellier -- perhaps to forestall Christian attacks upon Jewish congregations as harboring rationalists -- took the unusual step of anathematizing the philosophical works of Maimonides and excommunicating all Jews who should study profane science or literature or who should treat the Bible allegorically.
"The supporters of Maimonides, led by David Kimehi and Jacob ben Machir Tibbon, retaliated by persuading the congregations of Lunel, Beziers, and Narbonne in Provence, and those of Saragossa and Lerida in Spain, to excommunicte Solomon and his followers.
"Solomon now took a still more startling step. He denounced the books of Maimonides to the Dominican Inquistion at Montpellier as containing heresies dangerous to Christianity as well as Judaism.
"The monks accommodated him and all procurable publications of the philosopher were burned in public ceremonies at Montpellier in 1234 and at Paris in 1242.
"Forty days later the Talmud itself was burned at paris.
"These events drove the supporters of Maimonides to bitter fury.
"They arrested the leading adherents of Solomon at Montpellier, convicted them of informing against fellow Jews and condemned them to have their tongues cut out. Apparently Solomon was put to death.
"Rabbi Jonah, regretting his share in the burning of Maimonides' books, came to Montpellier, did public penance in the synagugue, and undertook a pilgrimage of repentance to Moses ben Maimon's grave.
"Bar Don Astruc resumed the war by proposing a rabbinical ban on any study of the profane sciences. Nachmanides and Asher ben Yehiel supported him and in 1305 Solomon ben Abraham ben Adret, the revered and powerful leader of the Barcelona congregations, issued a decree of excommunication against any Jew who should teach, or should before the age of twenty-five dare to study, any secular science except medicine, or any non-Jewish philosophy.
"The liberals of Montpellier replied by excommunicating any Jew who debarred his son from the study of science. Neither ban had any wide effect. Jewish youths, here and there, continued to study philosophy.
"But the great influence of Adret and Asher in Spain and the growth of persecution and fear throughout a Europe now subject to the Inquisition, drove the Jewish communities back into intellectual as well as ethnic isolation. The study of science declined among them. Purely rabbinical studies ruled the Hebrew schools.
"After its escapade with reason the Jewish soul, haunted with theological terrors and an encompassing enmity, buried itself in mysticism and piety."
I wonder if the burning of books contributes to a lessening of reason.

Robby

JUSTIN:

Is everything in the world subject to change? I would say "Yes", and then I found this by Googling in your exact question?

'The world is a passing phenomenon. We all belong to the world of time. Every written word, every carved stone, every painted picture, the structure of civilization, every generation of man, vanishes away like the leaves and flowers of forgotten summers. What exists is changeable and what is not changeable does not exist.'

It seems plausible, and I think our current topic would include such a thought. (Buddhist philosophy)

The "burning of the Talmud books" would, I think, certainly upset a Jewish person's equilibrium for awhile - at least. Not only an affront to his sensibilities, but in considering the times it would be a hard event to tolerate.

Update on Mal

Hi all,

I know you are all anxiously awaiting word on Mal. I do not yet have her phone number, they are setting up her phone today.

She's doing fine-- its a really nice place-- and so far the staff has been very friendly. Once I get them all trained on her care (!) we'll be all set. She seemed happy to have a change of scenery and some social contact. A little bit of a rough night last night, but most likely because she overdid some yesterday.

Take care all, Dorian

Justin your double negative, posed as a question, has me tied up in knots. viz :- "Are there no constants that have not been created by man?" LOL.

I've tried a yes answer, and then a no answer, and am left confused as to the meaning of my response. BG.

MeriJo Your quote found from Google :-"The world is a passing phenomenon. We all belong to the world of time. Every written word, every carved stone, every painted picture, the structure of civilization, every generation of man, vanishes away like the leaves and flowers of forgotten summers. What exists is changeable and what is not changeable does not exist."

Everything fashioned by 'Man' will pass away, certainly, but I think the Universe is eternal, and will endure forever. The laws of science and mathematics, and the constants of nature, are unchangeable. They will surely endure till the end of Time itself.(If there is any such end). ++ Trevor

Jews cutting out the tongues of Jews and killing others, including Rabbi Solomon, the Christian led inquisition rampant in Europe, religious books being burned... All in the name of God.

On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you grade God for communicating to mankind what he wants?

Rich

3Kings:

There is supposed to be an end to time. As for science, math and the constants of nature I would think they are subject to change. I think it depends on the context. It's spring here now, and just lovely. Soon it will be hot, and I think I could fry an egg on our patio when it hits the hundreds here.

That quotation is from Buddhist philosophy.

I think the Universe will somehow come to an end, too. There might not be any use for it without time.

I think our big mistake is assuming that we do know the mind of God!

Carolyn

Carolyn Perhaps you are right. Or maybe our biggest mistake is in believing that there is such a thing as you propose... ++ Trevor

Well Trev I am on the side of the affirmative.

There are three opinions- affirmative, negative and don't know. One of these is right!

Rich 7:

I do not believe this is a "gradable" for God. Jewish thinking from the very beginning and again in Maimonides time is that one must love his neighbor. This was medieval times and the rule should have been in force. However, in Deuteronomy as Moses recites laws to the Jews, he does repeat that for certain, perceived "bad" acts by individuals, they should "Kill them, and so you shall purge evil from your midst." I don't know. Was that law still effective in medieval times when the Jews did that?

that change is an abstraction therefore man-made The only constant. . . the only absolute being that there will always be CHANGE. . . .

The laws found in Deuteronomy when it was found in the Temple continue to be operative today. I don't think one can be selective in these things by choosing this one and not that one to be operative. On the other hand, I am sure there are folks who ignore the law but that is a question of individual choice and not of applicability.

Bubble: Is that a fair assessment?

Trevor: I don't blame you. Double negatives are always a puzzle. This one should have read," Are there no constants in the world other than those contrived by man. I had in mind the abstract constants of Mathematics. However, even some of the Math constants are never ending decimals.

Carolyn: Don't forget "Maybe". I suppose one might see that category as "don't know".

The burning of the Talmud would have the same effect on Jews as flushing the Qur'an had on Muslims. I see both actions as sacrilege and desecration.

Justin: I thought I said so before but, I do not agree that scriptures must accommodate reason. From my point of view, scriptures can address many levels of reason. Saying that scriptures must accommodate reason amounts to setting a limit to the level of reason that scriptures can address. It is like saying that society must accommodate children’s level of understanding ...

Justin: Regarding Genesis. What happened there - in the garden of Eden - tilted the entire Universe, according to the book. To make of it an allegory misses the point altogether. It takes away the message ... It takes away the baby with the bath water.

I take Genesis as an allegory. The garden of Eden and what occurred there is a narrative in my humble opinion of man losing his innocence by gaining knowledge that was previously forbidden him.The knowledge was gained by stealth. I do not take it literally relating to Adam and Eve having sex to be blunt about it. This is just my humble opinion and I am not a theologian and do not claim to be one.

Carolyn

All that has nothing to do with God, according to the book. It has more - if not all - to do with men's pride hiding behind selfrighteousness.

From my point of view, what happenned in the garden relates the story of how men and women were separated from God. The rest of the book tells about how to repair that.

I agree with you Daniel. Cutting off tongues has nothing to do with God. In the eyes of the Jews however,the Torah is the equivalent of Christ and in that sense burning it has much to do with God. Not your God perhaps, but the God of the Jews.

This question of accommodation by the scriptures is not a good term to use. It implies that the scriptures have the capacity to act as a human would act. Let me try for clearer phrasing. The scriptures contain much imagery that seems a little far fetched to a rational reader. Jonah and the Whale, Noah and his ark, etc. are examples of imagery that require a little interpretation, a little reason, to make them understandable to rational people. That is what Maimonides means by "accommodation."

Justin #333 - Yes, it is so today and acceptance or application of the law is very much individual. That is why there are so many currents in Judaism these days. Bubble

"The isles of science and philosophy are everywhere washed by mystic seas.
"Intellect narrows hope and only the fortunate can bear it gladly. The medieval Jews, like the Moslems and the Christians, covered reality with a thousand superstitions, dramatized history with miracles and portents, crowded the air with angels and demons, practiced magical incantations and charms, frightened their children and themselves with talk of witches and ghosts, lightened the mystery of sleep with interpretations of dreams, and read esoteric secrets into ancient tomes.
"Jewish mysticism is as old as the Jews.
"It received influences from the Zoroastrian dualism of darkness and light, from the Neoplatonist substitution of emantations for creation, from the Neopythagorean mysticism of number, from Gnostic theosophies of Syria and Egypt, from the apocrypha of early Christianity, from the poets and mystics of India, Islam and the medieval Church.
"But its basic sources were in the Jewish mentality and tradition themselves. Even before Christ there had circulated among the Jews secret interpretations of the creation story in Genesis and of Chapters I and X of Ezekiel. In the Mishna it was forbidden to expound these mysteries except privately to a single and trustworthy scholar.
"Imagination was free to conceive account of what had preceded the creation or Adam, or what would follow the descuction of the world. Philo's theory of the Logos or Divine Wisdom as the creative agency of God was a lofty sample of these speculations. The Essenes had secret writings which were zealously guarded from disclosure and Hebrew apocrypha like the Book of Jubilees expounded a mystic cosmogony.
"A mystery was made of the Ineffable Name of Yahveh. Its four letters -- 'the Tetragrammaton' -- were whispered to hold a hidden meaning and miraculous efficacy to be transmitted only to the mature and discreet.
"Akiba suggested that God's instrument in creating the world was the Torah or Pentateuch and that every word or letter of these holy books had an occult significance and power. Some Babylonian Geonim ascribed such occult powers to the letters of the Hebrew alphabet and to the names of the angels. He who knew those names could control all the forces of nature.
"Learned men played with white or black magic --magical capacities obtainable through alliance of the soul with angels or demons. Necromancy, bibliomancy, exorcism, amulets, incantations, divination, and casting of lots played their part in Jewish as in Christian life.
"All the wonders of astrology were included. The stars were letters, a mysterious sky-writing that only the initiate could read."
Do you folks agree with Durant that "intellect is a burden" and that it "narrows hope?" Can imagination be kept prisoner? Any thoughts here as to what existed before the beginning and what will exist after the end?
As for superstition, fortunately we are past that age of belief (knock wood).
Throughout the 3 1/2 years we have been discussing Durant in this forum, many participants have commented on Durant's skill in using words in a beautiful manner in addition to his ability as a historian. Witness the first sentence in this posting.

Robby

Strange bedfellows? -- OLD TESTAMENT AND COMIC BOOKS?

Robby

''It's definitely a ministry tool,'' said 36-year-old ''Archangels'' creator and writer Patrick Scott. ''It's really meant to evangelize and to plant a seed of hope in the minds of people that have no hope.''

Post # 346 - It is nothing new, and it is very true. I remember that most of the classes lending library books in primary school at the convent were books inspired by saints in the RC calendar. We were encouraged to take these heroes as models. There were St Teresa of Lisieux, Bernadette Soubirou, Tharcisius and so many others whose names escape me now. The stories were made exciting by colorful drawings and the everyday language used by kids. Some pupils were even dispensed from gym class if they wanted to continue reading their book!

in which anything seems possible is a place to go when the real world is wanting. I go there all the time when I'm making art or even when just thinking or dreaming. However I wouldn't try to make use of it to concoct a system of rules for others to follow. It's MY WORLD and they have THEIRS. . . . Claire

The burning of books always sends chills up and down my spine. People at all periods of history tend to destroy what they either don't understand or don't want to understand. As a child in the 1950s I watched as librarians "symbolically" burned banned books from our local library and "rock 'n roll" records where smashed. Of course, that was a signal for the young people of this time period not only to seek these "banned books" but to read them profusely whether we understood them or not while we listened faithfully to our "rock 'n roll" records.

Yes, I concur. Intellect is a burden and those people in society who accept the burden, alone, labor to honestly explain the mysteries of life and the universe. All the rest, selfishly,accept the offerings of charlatans who provide easy but expensive responses to life's mysteries.One has a choice to make in life. One may ignore the burden of intellect or one may accept the burden and challenge oneself to contribute to the welfare of mankind.

I think that intellectual and/or religious communities, have always been filled with men (Jewish or not) that clutched their books of knowledge to their breast, and fed the common man tales of mysticism, and mystery, to protect their own place of power, and control the masses. Self importance is a powerful thing. Fortunatly, there have also been a some few that were eager to share their knowledge.

History has shown that if you were unfortunate to be one of the current "lower classes" at the time, you would have had to struggle to even learn to read. It was easier to control the uneducated. Hopefully, we have passed that place in our time.

As for intellect being a burden.....I suppose it is, in a way. The more knowledge you have about something, the more you may struggle with the true meaning, but in some cases, outcomes may be altered. Still, nothing can truly alter our "beginnings", whatever they were. The best you can do is decide for yourself what you believe, and keep an open mind. Not knowing should not be an option.

Sun

Oh, Yes..."The isles of science and philosophy are everywhere washed by mystic seas." is a beautiful and well crafted sentence.

Justin & Sunknow your #350 & 351. Well said.

But is intellect really a burden ? I think of superstition as being the true burden. Nicely encapsuled in the following fragment

Bowed by the weight of the centuries,
He stands and leans upon his hoe,
The darkness of the Ages in his face.

++ Trevor

Perhaps searching is the burden. There are those who believe in a religion, and rest in their certainty. There are those who rest in the certainty that there is no God. It is in the searching for answers that there is no rest.

Intellect narrows hope by removing all the hopeless solutions to the mysteries of life but intellect also improves hope by making the narrow remainder more worthy of one's efforts.

Christian comic books are not a new sales device. Christians have been addressing a comic book population since Medieval days.. The Gothic cathedrals of France, England, and Germany, were decorated with the Christian narrative to reach an illiterate laity.That practice continues today in the Stations of the Cross which one may find visually presented in many Catholic Churches.

Jewish mysticism grew from many mystical sources which carried through to Christianity and though I am not certain, probably influenced the formation of Islam. Plotinus' neo platonic emanations gave Christianity a godhead and two secondary elements in the Trinity. Plotinus identified a godhead he called the One and flowing out of that in a secondary yet very powerful position an entity he called Divine Wisdom. These ideas of course evolve into slightly new forms and names by the time of Paul.

Pythagorean mysticism of number is another source of Jewish mysticism that carried over into Christianity. Pythagorus introduced certain ratios based on something he called the Music of the Spheres. These ratios were built into the design of Gothic Cathedrals to tie in the cathedral with the heavens. Gematria was very popular in Medieval Christianity as a method for tying people into the magic of numbers. .

This is the poem to which Trevor refers. It is an extremely powerful poem and makes one think of Durant's constant comment about class differences.

The Man with a Hoe
by: Edwin Markham

Bowed by the weight of centuries he leans
Upon his hoe and gazes on the ground,
The emptiness of ages in his face,
And on his back, the burden of the world.
Who made him dead to rapture and despair,
A thing that grieves not and that never hopes,
Stolid and stunned, a brother to the ox?
Who loosened and let down this brutal jaw?
Whose was the hand that slanted back this brow?
Whose breath blew out the light within this brain?
Is this the Thing the Lord God made and gave
To have dominion over sea and land;
To trace the stars and search the heavens for power;
To feel the passion of Eternity?
Is this the dream He dreamed who shaped the suns
And marked their ways upon the ancient deep?
Down all the caverns of Hell to their last gulf
There is no shape more terrible than this--
More tongued with cries against the world's blind greed--
More filled with signs and portents for the soul--
More packed with danger to the universe.
What gulfs between him and the seraphim!
Slave of the wheel of labor, what to him
Are Plato and the swing of the Pleiades?
What the long reaches of the peaks of song,
The rift of dawn, the reddening of the rose?
Through this dread shape the suffering ages look;
Time's tragedy is in that aching stoop;
Through this dread shape humanity betrayed,
Plundered, profaned and disinherited,
Cries protest to the Powers that made the world,
A protest that is also prophecy.
O masters, lords and rulers in all lands,
Is this the handiwork you give to God,
This monstrous thing distorted and soul-quenched?
How will you ever straighten up this shape;
Touch it again with immortality;
Give back the upward looking and the light;
Rebuild in it the music and the dream;
Make right the immemorial infamies,
Perfidious wrongs, immedicable woes?
O masters, lords and rulers in all lands,
How will the future reckon with this Man?
How answer his brute question in that hour
When whirlwinds of rebellion shake all shores?
How will it be with kingdoms and with kings--
With those who shaped him to the thing he is--
When this dumb Terror shall rise to judge the world,
After the silence of the centuries?

This is THE PAINTING BY MILLET which inspired the poem. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

Religious intolerance in the MILITARY.

Robby

Is it true that CHRISTIANITY is the only religion with a shortage of male practitioners?

Robby

and all religions attempt to answer their questions with biased and inaccurate comments. How to retain the innocence of the child's curiosity, the three year old WHY STAGE in a life of confusion and horror. How to keep the child within, asking questions, forever wanting to know how, what, where, when and why. . . .claire

It has long been known that women are the church goers in our society. I always thought it had something to do with the role of women as second class citizens. They could relate to God and to the saints on a personal level, sharing an intimacy that was not possible with their husbands. Many women talk to themselves as well as to saints partly because their husbands are non verbal but also they need someone who listens but does not criticize.This is serious business, this business of women talking to saints. Men don't do that. They would feel embarassed talking to statues. Women can talk to a statues and not be fully aware that it's a statue. It's not a statue. It's St. Michael or St. Joseph they are talking with.

I can remember, way back, looking back from the altar at six o'clock Mass and seeing only old women in the pews. The men were abundant at 9 and 10 o'clock Mass and many of them tried to find a place to stand in the back or out in the narthex, not wanting to be a part of the congregation.

The persistence of the support the Church receives from women is not easy to understand in light of the role the Church allots them.

JUSTIN Do all husbands do that? I thought it was only mine. . . Claire

I always thought many more men went to synagogue than women. I thought that they have no time for that. I'll have to check that.

In the mosque one sees only men. I have no idea where women would sit/stand if they go. Mahlia, help! Bubble

P.S. I checked: my very religious neighbor says that the synagogue is primarily a man's place of worship and learning. They are required to go there so as to form a minyan or quorum necessary for certain prayers.

Women cannot be part of a minyan, even for the prayers of their deceased parents.

Robby - I was going to thank Trevor for those few lines of Markham's "The Man with a Hoe"....then you gave us the entire poem. Thank you both.

That was one of the many poems I had to memorize in school. When I was finished Waco High School back in 1950 I carried the memory of many famous words with me...we memorized everything from Invictus to Chaucer. To this day I remember most of them, including part the first 18 lines of Chaucer's old: "When that apprila with his showers soote..." in old English. I can still get through about a third of it. Do students still memorize poetry today? It may not be considered much of a learning tool now, but it never leaves you.

A small note: Ann Richards, our former Governor, was at Waco High at the same time....she devoted herself to debate teams, which certainly paid off for her.

Sun

"From mystic exaltation, Messianic disillusionment, periodic persecution, and the hard routine of economic life, the medieval Jews found refuge in the obsurity of their congregations and the consolations of their ritual and creed.
"They celebrated with piety the festivals that recalled their history, their tribulations, and their ancient glory, and patiently adjusted to their urban existence the ceremonies that once had divided the agricultural year.
"The vanishing Qaraites kept the Sabbath in darkness and cold, lest they violate the Law by kindling fires on lighting lamps. But most Jews, while the rabbis winked, brought in Christian friends or servitors to keep the fires burning and tend the lights.
"Every chance for a banquet was seized with generosity and pomp. The family gave a feast on the circumcision or confirmation of a son, the betrothal or marriage of a son or daughter, the visit of a noted scholar or relative, the occurrence of some religious festival. Sumptuary regulations of the rabbis forbade the providers of such banquets to invite more than twenty men, ten women, five girls, and all relatives up to the third teneration.
"A wedding feast sometimes lasted a week and not even the Sabbath was allowed to interrupt it. The bridal pair were crowned with roses, myrtle, and olive branches. Their path was strewn with nuts and wheat. Barley grains were thrown over them as a hint to fertility.
"Songs and quips accompanied every stage of the event. In later medieval days a professional jester was engaged to ensure full merriment. Sometimes the jests were mercilessly truthful but almost always he accepted Hillel's genial decree, that 'every bride is beautiful.'
"So the passing generation celebrated its own replacement, rejoiced in its children's children and subsided into a harassed but kindly old age.
"We see the faces of such old Jews in Rembrandt's portraits:-features bearing the history of the people and the individual, beards breathing wisdom, eyes haunted with sad memories but softened with indulgent love.
"Nothing in Moslem or Christian morals could surpass the mutual afffection of young and old in Judaism, the love that overlooks all faults, the quiet guidance of immaturity by experience and the dignity with which the life fully lived accepts the naturalness of death.
"When he made his will the Jew left not only worldly goods to his offspring, but spiritual counsel
"When the last breath was drawn, the eyes and mouth of the dead were closed by the eldest son or the most distinguished son or relative. The body was bathed and anointed with aromatic unguents and wrapped in spotless linen. Almost everyone belonged to a burial society which now took the corpse, watched over it, gave it the last religious rites, and accompanied it to the grave.
"In the funeral the pallbearers walked with bare feet. The women preceded the bier, chanted a dirge and beat a drum. Any stranger who encountered the procession was expected to fall in with it and accompany it to the grave. Usually the coffin was placed near those of dead relatives. To be buried was for a man 'to be with his fathers,' 'to be gathered unto his people.'
'The mourners did not despair. They knew that although the individual might die, Israel would carry on."
Any comments as we conclude the section on Judaic Civilization?

Robby

For some time we have been reading how the Medieval Jew was restricted in many ways, partly by others, partly by his own rules. As a psychologist I find this ARTICLE fascinating. Others may find it interesting. Could it be that this restriction over the centuries resulted in their having a higher intelligence level?

Robby

Who are the ASHKENAZIM?

Robby

More about the ASHKENAZI including their hereditary diseases.

Robby

Thanks Robby, these are great articles. I was particularly interested in "The Early Catastrophe: The 30 Million Word Gap by Age 3" in the last article. Jewish families are known to be very verbal and to use a very rich vocabulary.

I found Robby’s articles interesting. Especially this excerpt:

Several studies place the median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews (who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews) at approximately one standard deviation above the mean for other whites. (In a normal distribution, only about 16% of the population is at least one standard deviation above the mean)

But I found the "natural selection" hypothesis for the distinguishing characteristics quite uninspiring, Darwin’s theory notwithstanding. Rather, I find those special characteristics a confirmation of the fact they are descendants of Isaac, son of Abraham. Remember that his mother was 90 years old when he was born, and his father 100. Being a descendant of Isaac means to share the uniquely defined DNA that entered the fecundation process of Isaac, passed down from generation to generation. To me, this fact is the uniquely defining characteristic of Isaac’s descendants.

Daniel, does that mean that the great age of his parents would change Itzhak DNA and make him more intellectually developped? What do you consider a "uniquely defined DNA"? You lost me...

Nowadays I know that our Gyn doctors discourage having children past a certain age (even though those fertility treatments are pushing the possibilites to an unrealistic limit) and not because they fear the birth of geniuses.

I would place the intelligence level of this forum's participants as very high. I am not speaking of the level of education. That is an entirely different story.

Robby

The GREEN quotes in the Heading show us the direction in which we are heading. Any further comments regarding the Judaic Civilization?

Robby

Only a nagging question since we started this particular chapter: are jews that different as to apparently form a different 'class' of people?

I've never found the search for knowledge a burden. It's always been a way of life for me. Writing is merely a product of my research. But I do find that the more research I do; the more I realize that I really know very little.

For want of a better answer, Bubble, perhaps THIS can wrap up a response to your question.

Robby

Bubble: I was not able to find one single article that explained in short what I mean. So I will try to summarize.

There are two general aspects. One has to do with the ovulation process and the other with the DNA.

The Bible confirms that Sara had had her menopause. Egg cells have the faculty of maintaining their life in "suspension" so to speak for as long as 40 years, for the duration of the fertile period of a woman. But after the hormonal process changes take place during menopause, the ovaries cease to function. There is no possibility of life stemming from these organs 40 years after the menopause because the remaining follicles degenerate. If Sara effectively produced an ovum capable of being fertilized at age 90, this ovum could only have been given "life" by an act of the Creator; its "DNA profile" must therefore have been determined supernaturally, and that is what I mean by uniquely defined DNA. The Creator had something particular in mind for the descendants of Abraham.

According to the Encyclopaedia, apart from the chromosomic DNA which is equivalent to the one brought by the spermatozoid; the ovum contains in its mitochondria a non nuclear DNA which will be transmitted by the mother from generation to generation.

This by the way gives one explanation as to why the relationship with the mother determines whether a person is of Jewish descent.

"This ovum could only have been given "life" by an act of the Creator."
Keeping in mind, Daniel, that your belief is that there is a Creator but some other participants here do not.
Again, "The Bible confirms that Sara had had her menopause."
There are those in this discussion group who believe that the Bible is written by man and has had many interpretations and changes so to them, something written in the Bible is not a confirmation.
Please choose your words carefully giving your thoughts as your opinions and not necessarily statements of fact.

Robby

The Dark Ages

566-1095

The Man with the Hoe

A touching scene, to say the least, about the burden of life. This man was probably less concerned about his thirst for knowledge than about the pain in his left leg that was more evident in the sketch than in the painting where I was drawn to the expression on his face.

Perhaps Millet wanted, in the end to express the absolute dejection that the man felt about the futility of his life. His hanging jaw described his exhaustion and also in the way he was leaning on his hoe. He seemed to be wearing wooden shoes. these have to be the most uncomfortable shoes anyone can wear. I remember my French brother-in-law saying that he wore them going to school in France before the war.

To have a thirst for knowledge immediately sets people apart from the rest of the population whose most immediate concern is a roof over one’s head and food on the table for his family. It means that one has progressed further than the immediate needs a human being has and I feel it superficial to find the thirst for knowledge a burden, I would rather say it is a gift to be appreciated because it was the parents who felt it necessary to send their children on to college and university sometimes at great sacrifice.

Éloïse

"If now we turn from the Oriental side of the endless duel between East and West, we are soon moved with sympathy for a great empire harassed at once with internal discord and, on every side, external attack.
"Avars and Slavs were crossing the Danube and taking possession of imperial lands and towns. Persians were preparing to overrun Western Asia. Spain was lost to the Visigoths. The Lombards, three years after Justinian's death, conquered half of Italy (568).
"Plague swept the Empire in 542 and again in 566 -- famine in 569. Poverty, barbarism, and war broke down communications, discouraged commerce and stifled literature and art."
Robby

Some comments about the SLAVS.

Robby

Some comments about the AVARS.

Robby

Our family was spared the inheritable diseases described for German Jews but not the brains. I'm the dumb one. . . .and fairly comfortable in this "elite" group of scholars. It's been an education for me to be here for this discussion of my background It hasn't changed my life but it has filled some of the black holes in my understanding of family characteristics and traditions. Thank you all. . . Claire

I shall need to spend more time reading most of the recent postings. I have been enriched by the postings here and the new knowledge I have gained about the Jews.

I think I may be the slowest poster here because of some old-age ailments that take precedence over how I spend my time some days - yesterday and before, mostly resting - arhritis and closely supervised but vigorous (for me; the nurses think I am doing well.) cardiac rehabilitation.

Thanks to everyone here for your views. I'll be here reading and posting, but not as fast.

Robby: This feels like a trap. I was asked a direct question. I responded to that specific question. The question was: what do I mean? In that context, is it really necessary to add "in my opinion"? I would not allow myself to be as specific outside a direct question. Also, my email address is available to everyone.

Daniel:-You emailed me and I answered you in detail.

Robby

This MAP shows the migrations of the Slavs and the Avars

Robby

Thank you for your answer Daniel. Now I see what you mean.

Yes there are two sorts of DNA coding and apparently only the male kind does not change and this is how they could check the line of the Cohanim, even in those Africans from the South who claimed to be of Jewish descent.

I am not sure how scientists will be able to prove the Sarah's line of descendents versus Hagar's line.

After exchanging words with Robby, I understand that I have stepped outside the boundaries. I apologize if I offended anyone. I thank Robby for his fatherlike guidance of our (my) temperamental characters during this, at times, stormy but most of the time fascinating voyage through History.

Daniel: We were conversing but you left off at 342. I thought perhaps I said something to offend you in that post. I wondered what happened to you. I am glad to see you are back. We can't afford to lose our only strict constructionist now that we are entering the Dark Ages. .

Justin: You did no such thing. I try to participate in this discussion among other demanding tasks, which require sometimes that I give them priority over a follow up in this forum. I appreciate your input.

The burning of Holy Books can provoke extreme reactions as we have seen recently with the Qu’ran in Guantanamo. I agree with you. However, the purpose of these books, isn’t it to raise the standards of values of believers above such behaviour?

We may learn more about that as we penetrate the Dark Ages. Who knows ... light may even be shed where we didn’t expect it.

Easy does it, fellows. I don't know if I can deal with too much sweetness and light either.
Is anyone here old enough to remember "Alphonse and Gaston?"

Robby

Here are DANIEL AND JUSTIN.

Robby

Apres vous, mon ami! I don't remember them, but I remember Blondie with fondness.

That is something seemingly lacking in the Middle and Dark Ages: cartoons. Did those venerable rabbis have any written scrolls of jokes?

What a laugh ... Only after falling flat on my face with good manners, picking myself up and dusting off my otherwise impeccable suit, did I come face to face with ... No, I insist, only after you Captain Robby.

And now -- after a brief moment of hilarity -- come The Dark Ages.
"Justinian's successors were men of ability but only a century of Napoleons could have coped with their problems.
"Justin II (565-78) fought vigorously against an expanding Persia.
"Tiberius II (578-82) favored by the gods with almost every virtue, was taken by them after a brief and just reign.
"Maurice (582-602) attacked the invading Avars with courage and skill but received little support from the nation. Thousands entered monasteries to escape military service. When Maurice forbade the monasteries to receive new members until the danger was over, the monks clamored for his fall.
"The centurion Phocas led a revolution of the army and the populace against the aristocracy and the government (602). The five sons of Maurice were butchered before his eyes. The old Emperor refused to let the nurse of his youngest child save it by substituting for it her own. He himself was beheaded. The six heads were hung up as a spectacle for the people and the bodies were cast into the sea. The Empress Constantina and her three daughters and many of the aristocracy, were slain, usually with torture, with or without trial.
"Eyes were pierced, tongues were torn out, limbs were amputated. Once more the scenes of the French Revolution were rehearsed."
Once again class war rears its head?

Robby

So far, I think of two movies about that period: "Attila" which tells about the Huns and "King Arthur". The later resets the story of Arthur in the 5th Century, him then being a descendant of the Sarmatians. The later populated the southern part of Russia before being absorbed by the Roman Empire. They were highly developed in horsemanship and warfare. They disappeared altogether during the 6th Century. Both movies depict very primitive and barbaric civilizations at that time, although developed from a military point of view but more so in tactics than in arms.

King Arthur is an interesting movie as it depicts the values that presided over the organization of society and, in passing, how easy it was to use religion to subdue people.

Here is another type of class differential -- THE RICH VS THE HYPER-RICH.

Robby

Daniel: We can't leave so quickly nor can you agree with me so easily with out having clearly read 342. In that post, seemingly about burning books, one finds a reference to the equality of Christ and the Torah. I refer there not only to the equality of roles but also to an equality of identity. MeriJo missed it also but she came in and said she was behind in reading the recent posts.

The mighty Roman empire dies as it lived- in violence and in torture. Emperors, such as Caligula,and Nero, have been assasinated in the past but this time, late in the 6th century, the Emperor and his entire family are assasinated, not for madness but for zeal in defending the Empire.

Justin: I sent you an email in response to your post #404.

#405 It reminds me of the tragic fate of the Romanoff.

Should the will of a Pope be honored if HISTORY loses?

Robby

apparently it is more important to make sure that there will be a new saint?

See what you miss when you are having fun instead of being in this discussion? I am glad I was busy somewhere else last evening though because I wouldn't have been too happy at times, but after a few posts, I am happy that everything is running smoothly again.

No Robby I had never seen the cartoon "Alphonse et Gaston" before, it reminded me that the French are still very formal.

History, I think, should not take precedence over the Pope's testament that his personal notes be burnt. In the end everything becomes history even they were burnt. What is behind the motive for keeping those notes besides History?

Éloïse

"Khosru II took advantage of the disorder and renewed the old war of Persia against Greece.
"Phocas made peace with the Arabs and transported the entire Byzantine army into Asia. He was everywhere defeated by the Persians while the Avars, unresisted, seized nearly all the agricultural hinterland of Constantinople.
"The aristocracy of the capital appealed to Heraclius, the Greek governor of Africa, to come to the rescue of the Empire and their property. He excused himself on the ground of age but sent them his son.
"The younger Heraclius fitted out a fleet, sailed into the Bosporus, overthrew Phocas, exhibited the mutiliated corpse of the usurper to the populace and was hailed as emperor (610).
"Heraclius dsserved his title and his name.
"With almost the energy of Heracles he set himself to reorganize the shattered state. He spent ten years in rebuilding the morale of the people, the strength of the army and the resources of the treasury. He gave land to peasants on condition that the eldest son in each family should render military service.
"Meanwhile the Persians captured Jerusalem (614) and advanced to Chalcedon (615). Only the Byzantine navy, still controlling the waters, saved the capital and Europe. Soon afterwad the Avar hordes marched up to the Golden Horn, raided the suburbs and took thousands of Greeks into slavery.
"The loss of the hinterland and of Egypt cut off the city's supply of grain and compelled abolition of the dole (618). Heraclius, desperate, thought of transporting his army to Carthage and thence attempting to retake Egypt. The people and the clergy refused to let him go and the Patriarch Sergius agreed to lend him the wealth of the Greek Church, at interest, to finance a holy war for the recapture of Jerusalem.
"Heraclius made peace with the Avars and at last (622) set out against the Persians."
The "old" war of Persia against Greece?

Robby

A SUMMARY of what is going on for us "kids."

Robby

An animated timeline MAP OF THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE"

That is a great map, Eloise. Thank you!

Robby

Over the centuries, concordances have been used to examine and interpret many books (not the least of which is the Bible). Now the computer comes into play, another tool which can be used to "interpret" the Bible. This ARTICLE suggests a technological approach.
Yes, I know, folks! Fool that I am, I am rushing in where angels (the proper word in this case) fear to tread. Please - PLEASE! - choose your words carefully.

Robby

and we monitor their TV games for violence. too muchof that stuff for me. Hi Eloise. . . . Claire

Being just rich won't buy you one of these unless you want to impress your friends and neighbors with GREAT WORKS OF ART and put your millions where your wall is.

I have lost track of what being rich is today compared with hyper rich because zeros keep being added to the amount of their fortunes.

It's the first i've heard of it. seems rather like counting the petals of a flower by pulling them off one by one in order to understand it's mathematical relationship to the universe. . . ridiculous. . Claire

Then what about that kind of computer program to analyze the Bible:

http://petragrail.tripod.com/codes.html

MESSAGE FROM MAL

Hello,

News at last from the Hillcrest CCL, rahrah.

I have read and almost finished one book since I've been here, which has 515 pages. It is called The Burden of Proof and is by Scott Turow - It is an unusual book that has a lot of truth in it. Tonight I'll begin Where Trouble Sleeps by Clyde Edgerton, one of my favorite writers.

I suspect that I will be feeling better after Tuesday's excursion to the hospital. I said I intend to scream (like some of the inmates here) if they do not remove some of the hardware they put in a month ago when they did surgery on me. I am convinced this is a big part of my pain problem and have been told as much by my doctor.

Cheerios to all, Mal

Very useful tools. Bear in mind that they do not in themselves offer any interpretation of the texts they are tied to. They simply provide a means to locate words or sentences. They facilitate research. Interpretation of texts can only be those of the researcher.

Such tools have been developed as integral parts of computerized encyclopaedias. When researching a word, the search tools bring up all the passages that mention the word throughout the encyclopaedia. Very powerful and useful.

I use it all the time to find where I've stashed files on my hard disk. a really helpful tool indeed with my cluttered and disorganized hard disk full of everything I've found interesting . . . Claire

I suppose a computerized version of the Scriptures in concordant format might be more useful than the current printed Cruden. It would put the tool into the hands of an unenlightened laity and unscrupulous televangelists interested in profits, as well as qualified exegeticals.One unfortunate practice among those who transmit Biblical information to the laity is a tendency to support pet projects with excerpts taken out of context. I suspect we will see more of that once a concordance is available on the internet.

Online concordance:

http://godsview.com/

http://www.askthebrain.com/bible_concordance_online-.html

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Concordances/

also key for numbers:

http://www.bibleman.net/Keys_for_numbers.htm

Hello everyone:

I am here, and I did read everything, but that doesn't mean I understood it all.

Anyway: Backing up some here are a few thoughts of mine on the various points that have been brought up.

In reading about the Ashkenazi Jews and their overwhelming inclination for study and consequent development of their intellect, but with a tendency toward illnesses, I wondered if the obvious lack of exercise could have made a difference in their DNA composition for future generations?

Re: rules for living from religious pronouncements:

Unfortunately, life isn't philosophical. There are problems occurring which must be solved in a very basic way. Then is when the rules come in handy, I think, and the intellect shows its value.

I am looking forward to reading more about the Byzantium Empire. I noticed in Eloise's wonderful map that it extended into Italy west of Bari. This area in the ankle of Italy is the region of the Lucana, also known as Basilicata. I know about that area because it was my father's birthplace. It claims fame in the fact that Horace, the poet was born there. From the Byzantine occupation, the people there became hunters instead of farmers. The area is very dry and hilly, and hot. Life can be harsh there.

Re the Bible and a Concordance: I may just be a quiet observer here, because I am ignorant as to the interpretation of the King James Version of the Bible and all the various ideas associated with interpreting that Bible and the Hebrew Bible. It will be an education. I do have a Concordance, "The Zondervan Topical Bible" and I have a recent translation of the Douay Version of the Latin Vulgate, "The New American Bible". It's the same as the KJV except it includes the books of the Apochrypha, and it possibly lacks the beautiful prose of the KJV.

MeriJo: Look at 342 and let me know what you think. Nice to see you back.

Justin:

In my view, the Bible does no accommodating. It is a combination of different kinds of writings. Some, as Genesis, are a combination of history and allegory. The Bible both teaches and supports beliefs.

The writings include those with a literal meaning and those with a spiritual meaning.

The following medieval couplet may be of some help.

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith. The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.

I don't know how far I may go with my response. To one who taught this for many a year, I am in somewhat of a quandary as to my responses. Just warn me if I break the rules.

Thanks Justin:

My son tells me "No pain, no gain." but I'll be glad when this is over. These exercises are exhausting me.

MeriJo: Go as far as you want to go. Robby will warn if you exceed.

The guidelines are actually quite simple. Let me again repost what was posted when we started this discussion group.
Ask yourself how personal you are making it. Ask yourself if your statement is referring directly or indirectly to your own belief. There is a difference between "The world was created in seven days" and "According to the Bible, the world was created in seven days." Think and speak as a historian -- objective not subjective. Do you have a premise in your mind as you speak, e.g. that God exists or, for that matter, that God does not exist? Do you start speaking from a premise that the Bible is a holy book or, for that matter, that it is not a holy book?
Yes, this is difficult and I, as DL, will make every effort to bend over backwards but always keep the other participants in mind. "When in doubt, don't." Keep in mind that what you consider, even on a subconscious level, as a "given," may be completely contrary to the belief of some others reading your remarks.
Marcie, our Director of Education, was the person who wrote these following guidelines. They have worked for 3 1/2 years.

Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."

For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.
2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."
3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

We are now well into the Byzantine Life as indicated in the GREEN quotes in the Heading and have left the section on the Judaic Civilization. Can we start giving reactions to what is going on in the Byzantine World?
"The campaigns that followed were masterpieces of conception and execution.
"For six years Heraclius carried the war to the enemy and repeatedly defeated Khosru. In his absence a Persian army and a host of Avars, Bulgars, and Slavs laid siege to Constantinople (626).
"An army despatched by Heraclius defeated the Persians at Chalcedon and the garrison and populace of the capital, roused by the Patriarch, scatterd the barbarian horde.
"Heraclius marched to the gates of Ctesiphon. Khosru II fell, Persia pled for peace and surrenderd all that Khosru had taken from the Greek Empire.
"After seven years' absence, Heraclius returned in triumph to Constantinople.
"He hardly deserved the fate that shamed his old age. Weakened by disease, he was devoting his last energies to strengthening the civil administration when suddenly wild Arab tribes poured into Syria (634), defeated an exhausted Greek army, and captured Jerusalem (638).
"Even as the Emperor lay on his deathbed Egypt fell (641). Persia and Byzantium had fought each other to a common ruin. Under Constans II (642-68) the Arab victories continued. Thinking the Empire beyond saving, Constans spent his last years in the West and was killed in Syracuse.
"His son Constantine IV Pogonatus was abler or luckier. When through five crucial years (673- the Moslems made another effort to take Constantinople, 'Greek fire,' now mentioned for the first time, saved Europe. The new weapon, allegedly invented by Callinicus of Syria, was akin to our flame throwers, an incendiary mixture of naphtha, quicklime, sulphur, and pitch. It was thrown against enemy ships or troops on flaming arrows, or blown against them through tubes, or shot on iron balls bearing flax and tow soaked in oil. It was loaded and fired on small boats which were set adrift against the foe.
"The composition of the mixture was a secret successfully guarded for two centuries by the Byzantine government. To reveal any knowldge of it was treason and sacrilege.
"The Saracens finally discovered the formula and used 'Saracen fire' against the Crusaders. Until the invention of gunpowder it was the most allked-of weapon in the medieval world."
Your comments, please?

Robby

Detailed info about GREEK FIRE.

Robby

I am so tired of reading only about men in history, so by accident I came upon THIS with a map to see the area we are reading about.

Heraclius I married his niece Martina who became Empress after his death supposedly by tuberculosis, but poison was rather suspected after we find out that she was the most hated Empress in Byzantium. War, murder, incest, power struggle, it's all there, but is Durant avoiding women in history for reasons of gallantry or indifference, I wonder because we seldom read about them in S of C.

Éloïse

re women in history. I think everyone was indifferent. We were servants, slaves child bearing animals and other than that unimportant to history as the durants see it their focus on war and bloodshed and power. There is a new discussion on womens place in a democracy here but it is really about womens' place in the world. . .come see. . . Claire

Be Patient, ladies, Eleanor, Blanche, and Isabella D'Este are coming up.

The job of flame thrower was the riskiest job in the infantry. Riflemen could fire from a protected position but flame thowers were always exposed in a line of fire position. He had to stand up and expose himself in order to damage the enemy.

Have WOMEN been deprived of the opportunities of risking their lives in war? Be sure to click onto the continuing pages.

Robby

WOMEN WARRIERS? Let your imagination roam on this one.
Anyone want to get back to men?

Robby

"The Moslems made another assault upon the Greek capital in 717.
"An army of 80,000 Arabs and Persians under Moslema crossed the Hellespont at Abydos and besieged Constantinople from the rear. At the same time the Arabs fitted out a fleet of 1800 vessels, presumably small. This armada entered the Bosporus, overshadowing the straits, said a chronicler, like a moving forest.
"It was the good fortune of the Greeks that in this crisis an able general, Leo 'the Isaurian,' replaced the incompetent Theodosius III on the throne and assumed the organization of defense. He disposed the small Byzantine navy with tactical skill and saw to it that every ship was well supplied with Greek fire. In a little while the Arab vessels were aflame and nearly every ship in the great fleet was destroyed.
"The Greek army made a sortie upon the besiegers and won so decisive a victory that Moslema withdrew to Syria."

Robby

The Iconoclasts

717-802

"Leo III derived his cognomen from the district of Isauria in Cilicia.
"According to Theophanes he was born there of Armenian parentage. His father moved thence to Thrace, raised sheep, and sent 500 of them, with his son Leo in the bargain, as a present to the Emperor Justinian II. Leo became a guardsman of the palace, then commander of the Anatolian legion, finally by the convincing suffrage of the army, emperor.
"He was a man of ambition, strong will, and patient perseverance -- a general who repeatedly defeated Moslem forces gretly superior to his own -- a statesman who gave the Empire the stability of just laws justly enforced, reformed taxation, reduced serfdom, extended peasant proprietorship, distributed lands, repopulated deserted regions, and constructively revised the laws.
"His only fault was autocracy."

Robby

I think there were women present in combat from early on. Clorinda, of whom Tasso, wrote was a well-known woman-warrior.

http://www.getty.edu/art/collections/objects/o561.html

OK, let's get back to men and wars. I am not a feminist and I don't approve of women soldiering either. I think it is appalling to see young mothers fighing the war in Irak while their husband is at home with small children. Nobody will make me believe that equality goes that far.

Leo 111 is the kind of ruler who should be an autocrat. Autocracy is a benefit when the autocrat is as successful as this guy was. He was a good general, an able administrator, and one who recognized the benefits of raising the least common denominator to a self sustaining level.

Sorry, Eloise, I am a feminist. Women have been down trodden for too many years. It is time they were allowed to choose careers just as men are allowed to choose careers. If a woman chooses to be a soldier or a fireman, she should be encouraged in her chosen life style. I find it difficult to understand why a woman's career choice should be modified because her husband does not choose the same career. Once the period of gestation, delivery, and breast feeding is over Mom should be able to do her thing. Sacajewea did her thing and was not hampered by her child. Women are very capable.

I remember a film about the Old West in which a wagon load of ladies are on the way to a mining town. The men prepare to fight off indians who are bent on wagon mayhem. Colleen Dewhurst, the wagon Queen has a great line. It comes when most of the men are dead and the indians are poised to make a final charge. She says, matter of factly,"Don't be alarmed ladies. After all, they are only men."

Some recent posts just MADE me come forward and post, which I do rarely. I usually confine myself to reading, observing, learning and enjoying. (I don't accept "lurking" in this context...unpleasant connotations)

ROBBY, there has always been a class system, in all eras, in different civilizations, and I could elaborate on my time and era, having been born on the other side of the Atlantic.
But while this seems to be a (significant?) continuing preoccupation for Durant, I doubt that personal revelations would be at all relevant.

Actually, the impetus for my post came from your earlier one with the link regarding the "saving" of the late Pope's papers.
Quite interesting, isn't it? And who is being served?

There are precedents for this, of course, a notable one involved Franz Kafka and his friend Max Brod. Kafka, suffering from terminal TB, had asked Max Brod to dispose of all his writings after his death.

As we have long since known, Max Brod did nothing of the kind but KEPT and successively published everything Kafka had ever put pen to.
So much for the "will of the Pope" (above) or, for that matter, anybody's last wishes !

Eloïse, chère amie, I fully share your frustration (do I ever !!!), but there WERE women of consequence (for better or for worse) in history, and in the period with which this group is concerned now.

I readily admit to being an inconsistent reader, one who may well have missed a thing, here or there.
If so, could one of them have been the Empress Theodora, wife of Emperor Justinian?
I well remember from a lifetime ago that she was a "big deal" way back when we studied that period in history, all in German, of course. The professors did well by us in every subject, all of them required, none "elective", an unkown term then.

Fresh from the discussion of "The King Must Die" by Mary Renault and (earlier this year) "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton, I could say (but won't) a few words about the Amazons of Greek mythology, female warriors from Asia Minor. According to legend, they cut off one breast to better use arrows and/or spears.

MeriJo, it's interesting that Torquato Tasso, probably best known (if at all in this country) for his "Gerusalemme Liberata", also expounded on Amazons.

From the sidelines allow me to say that I enjoy being and reading here. It is refreshing to see Daniel, Éloïse's son, posting. Quel immense plaisir. Merci bien
= what immense pleasure, thank you very much.

Traude:-I follow your comments in other discussion groups but quel immense plaisir to receive a few words from you here. Should I look forward to more from you in the not too distant future?

Robby

Traude, welcome my friend, thank you for coming in. I hope that you will come often to share your knowledge with us in the future.

Thanks for coming to the women's defence Justin, I know we are as good in several areas, if not better than men except in physical strength and unless that changes I don't think anything will ever change. If there were women of consequence in history than why does not Durant mention them except rarely?

"Perhaps in his Asiatic youth Leo III had imbibed from Moslems, Jews, Manicheans, Monophysites and Paulicians a Stoic-Puritan conception of religion that condemned the addicion of popular Christianity to image worship, ceremonialism, and superstition.
"The Old Testament (Deut. iv, 15) had explicitly forbidden any 'graven image of any figure, male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth.' The early Church had frowned upon images as relics of paganism and had looked with horror upon pagan sculptures purporting to represent the gods.
"But the triumph of Christianity under Constantine and the influence of Greek surroundings, traditions, and statuary in Constantinople and the Hellenistic East had softened this opposition. As the number of worshipped saints multiplied, a need arose for identifying and remembering them. Pictures of them and of Mary were produced in great number. In the case of Christ not only His imagined form but His cross became objects of reverence -- even, for simple minds, magic talismans.
"A natural freedom of fancy among the people turned the holy relics, pictures, and statues into objects of adoration. People prostrated themselves before them, kissed them, burned candles and incense before them, crowned them with flowers and sought miracles from their occult influence.
"In Greek Christianity especially, sacred images were everywhere -- in churches, monasteries, houses and shops, even on furniture, trinkets, and clothes. Cities in danger from epidemic, famine, or war tended to rely upn the power of the relics they harbored or on their patron saint rather than on human enterprise. Fathers and councils of the Church repeatedly explained that the images were not deities but only reminders thereof.
"The people did not care to make such distinctions."
The power of the people?

Robby

Women have been left out of wars and I suspect that was not to their disliking. I have not met many women that were in favour of war. They know other (better) ways to solve differences - political ones too. As for me, a woman "Rambo" is not the kind of woman I would prefer for a partner.

There are differences between the sexes and looking for strict equality is not from my point of view the best way to acknowledge women as full fledged partners.

Feminity is a powerful gift - some would even call it a tool if not a weapon. But, should women have to pay a price for being feminine?

I have had a few opportunities to observe life from a women’s point of view, during some discreet moments when I was able to see situations that would be "normal" for a man, turn out to be burdensome for a women, mostly because of men’s attitude of contempt or condescendence towards women, not to mention worse attitudes. The feminist movement is partly the result of this.

A large part of the problem has to do with men trying to be manly but the wrong way.

Traude: thanks a million for your kind words. C’est un immense plaisir pour moi d’être parmi vous.

Attila the Hun was a very powerful warrior. He was able to unite many nations under his command and he led them successfully against Rome. He fell in love with a woman that bore a very close resemblance with the mother of his first son, whom he loved deeply but had died giving birth to their son.

Before he knew of the existence his newly found fiancé, in one of the military campaigns he led to establish his rule over other nations, he made himself responsible for killing the father and the other members his fiancé’s family. After gaining Attila’s heart, she accepted to marry him. But during their nuptial night, she poisoned and killed him, in order to avenge the cruel death of her family. Her achievement concerned not only Attila; she effectively destroyed the kingdom he had built, for there was no other leader equal to him that was ready to take command.

She was put to death the following morning; however, her family’s honour had been recovered. The Roman emperor had a large debt towards her because she achieved singlehandedly, something that the armies of the Roman Empire altogether had failed to do.

Chapter IV (9-18)in Deuteronomy concerning "graven images" to which Durant refers and which was taken seriously by Leo III --

4:9 Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;

4:10 [Specially] the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and [that] they may teach their children.

4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.

4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only [ye heard] a voice.

4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

4:16 Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

4:17 The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Robby

everyone was asked to define her/his view of feminism or feminist. here are several and mine.

feminist

Claire

P.s. jan sent me this link to those creepy crawly creatures and their sounds. animals and their sounds

Traude:

Good to read your words.

My grandfather saw something in my mother when she was born and named her Ardita Clorinda. I heard about Clorinda ever since I was a little girl that she was a heroine of whom Tasso wrote. She went by the name of "Clorinda". My mother did have a lot of spunk.

As for women being "second-class" citizens, again, I had a different experience. In Italy, at the time my mother was there in the early twentieth century, women would inherit the property even if they were the youngest in the family. There was much status in that regard for women. This, I learned from my mother. I don't know if the law exists today.

Possibly, because I attended all girls' schools in high school and in college, I developed a confidence that I could attempt and do anything I believed I could manage. In life - I am now, and old, old lady, this feeling continued and probably to my advantage. I did attempt things of which I wondered later,"Why did I take on this responsibility?" but I had, and I completed the tasks usually well and with a feeling of accomplishment.

I have never felt in an inferior place because I was a woman. Perhaps, in different settings, I would have, but from my experience, I haven't, and I think I passed this confidence on to my daughter, too.

"Church architecture: overcoming iconoclasts and cult of ugliness"

I wasn't sure of its meaning and looked it up in Googgle and I found THIS interesting. Is it true that we are again in the age of The Iconoclasts?

Excellent link, Eloise. Any other comments relating to the words of Durant?

Robby

Iconoclastic activity has appeared from time to time in history but each time it appeared it left less of traditional church trappings for succeeding generations. When it appeared in the Netherlands in the early 17th century it stripped churches to bare,white interiors without statuary or paintings, or crucifixes. The good people who did the damage were not content to design churches of their own devoid of Catholic trappings but had to destroy as well the imagery of others, art work by talented artists constructed thoughout the years.

The INTERIORS OF CHURCHES and their meanings -- with or without imagery.
Please note that what had been described in earlier postings as the Tree of Jesse is here described as showing the seven deadly sins.

Robby

Here is one definition of an ICONOCLAST.

Robby

The Deuteronomy passages Chap. 4: 9 - 18 stop short of the concluding passage in verse 19, which is fundamental to the understanding: "... do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven." The same message appears later in Chap. 5 where the Tens Commandments are given. The passages 9 to 18 described those things which the Lord didn’t want his people to worship. The point of the message, according to exegetes, was not related to the making of images as such, but to the worshiping of those images. It seems that, otherwise, Jews or Christians in the 21st Century would really be in dire straits.

Many Christians today - mostly protestants and evangelicals - feel the same as Leon III concerning statues and images. In other Christian denominations that make use of icons, they consider those to be mediums for nurturing faith, not worship idols. They would never acknowledge that they worship them.

Put yourself into the mind of Leo III and let yourself swim this sea of IMAGES, IMAGERY, IMAGINATION, IDOLATRY, IDEAS, SYMBOLISM, IMAGISM. How do each of these relate to each other and where does all that fit into beliefs?

Robby

Images of saints and other related religious figures tend to encourage the faithful to relate to a saint in a way that would not be possible without an image. Consider Christ upon the Cross or the Madonna with child. The faithful face these images at an altar rail or from a pew. One talks to the image, confiding inner most thoughts to the image, one bows the head, one beseeches favors,one genuflects, one is reverent, respectful.

These images serve to focus one's attention on the saint and they tend to make the person represented appear real. I think in most cases the faithful will recognize they are talking to plaster of paris if it is pointed out to them but while they are in a prayerful state, talking to the image,tolling the beads, the relationship is very real. One can be carried away by the charade very easily.

I don't think it is bad thing. It is useful for encouraging a relationship with saints and it gives people who do not normally converse a chance to do so with someone who will not interupt nor compete for equal time.

The images provided by the churches also serve to educate the faithful and to strengthen their resolve. Some are used to stress the shortness of life and the rapidity with which one approaches the devil's clutches. Images of decaying bodies seen so frequently in Spain stiffen one's resolve to die in a state of Grace.

The latest article about CLASS considers the topic of fiction.
Any comments about Class?
Any comments about the use of imagery in religion?

Robby

Fiction, I think, exemplifies best the class system. Perhaps it is at the center of most plots when a rich girl falls in love with a poor boy, or vice versa. The older generation sees with horror the introduction of the lower class within the carefully elaborated climb up the ladder.

Aspiration for a higher class sends poor kids to college and it is a boon to the real estate market. Class is no longer the blood line, but how many zeros coming after the first number of one's assets and it takes at least six zeros to reach high class. Classy people wear faded jeans while driving a vintage car.

Class is the new Apprentice on the Donald Trump show. It is what makes The Price is Right and The Millionnaire shows popular. It doesn't matter if your manners are dreadful because high class also has bad manners.

Éloïse

We must be behind the times here.The good private schools are still hot on manners. It is still considered a necessity if you belong to the upper class.

However my assessment of class in general is done by the manners of the person as well as their demeanour. Rich to me is not always classy.

Carolyn

according to my mama who never really said anything about class but did mention manners frequently is HAVING CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS. . . There. I'm inclined to be tactless at times which means I'm simply forgetting to do that. no harm intended, just an over supply of enthusiasm. . . .Claire

Mal obviously hasn't lost her sense of humor!

Message from Mal:

They did a cystogram yesterday and decided my bladder was healthy enough for them to remove the catheter, after 37 days. It is an immense relief to have it no longer in my system. It is the catheter, by the way that caused the infection.

Guess what folks? People have been asking me how much I weigh. How the bloody (woops) would I know? FOMB? Today this giant wrestler came in my room pushing a huge scale and said "You're gonna be weighed!" I said "No, I can't stand right now." Whereupon she lifted me up and put me on the scale. I clasped the railing in front of me so I wouldn't fall downand then was asked, "how much do you weigh?" and I said "I don't know, how much DO I weigh?" She said, "it says here,

"102 pounds."

While I was in this weight loss program, my skin was very confused. That's why I have pleats, tucks, ruffles and gathers where once I was round and firm and fully packed. A laugh a minute, that's what this is.

Mal

Well, Mal, I hope you are feeling better soon. I'm glad to hear you have that catheter out. What an ordeal that can be!

About "imagery" If one means "imagery" in a prayer or in written meditations or readings it can serve to focus the one who prays. If one means "imagery" in the sense of statuary and paintings as are found in some Italian churches - some can be inspiring and sources of contemplation, but others can be a bit frightening. It seems to have been a "thing" for medieval artists to focus on the grotesque and the macabre a little too often for me.

Class:

I did post about "class" when it first came up, but after reading so many links and impressions about "class", I think, "class" may be an unspoken yet felt, discrimination between people,_ education, notwithstanding. Individuals, unconsciously, seek out their "class" to find a comfort level socially, perhaps.

"Leo III was offended by these excesses of popular faith.
"It seemed to him that paganism was in this manner reconquering Christianity. He felt keenly the satire directed by Moslems, Jews, and Christian sects against the superstitions of the orthodox multitude.
"To weaken the power of the monks over the people and the government, and win the support of Nestorians and Monophysites, he assembled a great council of bishops and senators and with their consent he promulgated in 726 an edict requiring the complete removal of icons from the churches. Representations of Christ and the Virgin were forbidden. Church murals were to be covered with plaster.
"Some of the higher clergy supported the edict. The lower clergy and the monks protested, the people revolted. Soldiers trying to enforce the law were atttacked by worshipers horrified and infurited by this desecration of the dearest symbols of their faith.
"In Greece and the Cyclades rebel forces proclaimed a rival emperor and sent a fleet to capture the capital. Leo destroyed the fleet and imprisoned the leaders of the opposition. In Italy, where pagan forms of worship had never died, the people were almost unanimous against the edict. Venice, Ravenna, and Rome drove out the Imperial officrs and a council of Western bishops summoned by Pope Gregoy II anathematized the Iconoclasts -- imnage breakers -- without naming the Emperor.
"The patriarch of Constantinople joined the revolt and sought by it to restore the independence of the Eastern Church from the state.
"Leo deposed him (730) but did him no violence. The edict was so mildly enforce that when Leo died (741), most of the churches retained their frescoes and mosaics unharmed."
Again, power to the people? Or to the ignorant masses?
"East is East and West is West and never. . ."
I wonder at what point an expression of faith can be considered "excessive?"

Robby

Quite often, decorative or symbolic art or even a small chapel or church was executed by individuals who wished to demonstrate their faith and offer a gift in this way. This would be Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, "For the Greater Honor and Glory of God" Sometimes on the base or foundation of a church would be found the letters "A.M.D.G."

It is well to point out that the edict, while it applied to the empire, arose in the east in Constantinople where even before the split, an icon was a serious bit of religious business.That remains so today. The Vladimir Madonna, for example has been brought out every time the Slavs faced a natural disaster. The Madonna is an icon of great significance to the people. It is closely tied in with their history. There are similar icons all over the east.

When I was a boy, I always enjoyed St. Anne's feast day. It was on that day that all the immigrant Italians in my little town gathered to celebrate in her honor. Her statue was carried through the streets after everyone had loosened up on chianti. Dollar bills were pinned to her skirts as she was carried in procession on the shoulders of six young husky guys. The crowd may have been unruly eating little pasta dishes a hundred feet in front of the procession but once the Madonna came into view people bowed the head, rosary beads appeared, and the crowd became silent,reverent and respectful.

Statues of saints are a long way from plaster of paris and a little paint. They are serious business for the faithful so when Leo declared the edict he was treading on dangerous ground.

More about the ICONOCLASM which helped to cause the breach between the Eastern Church and Rome.

Robby

"A full perspective of Byzantine civilization would require at this point a record of many emperors and some empresses -- not of their intrigues, palace revolutions, and assassinations but of their policy and legislation and their age-long effort to protect the diminishing Empire from Moslems on the south and Slavs and Bulgars on the north.
"In some respects it is an heroic picture. Through all the fluent shifts of appearing and disappearing figures the Greek heritage was in good measure preserved. Economic order and continuity were maintained. Civilization continued as if by some enduring impetus from the ancient labors of Pericles and Augustus, Diocletian and Constantine.
"In other aspects it is a sorry spectacle of generals climbing over slain rivals to imperial power, to be slain in their turn -- of pomp and luxury, eye-gouging and nose-cutting, incense and piety and treachery -- of an emperor and pariarch unscrupulously struggling to determine whether the empire shoud be ruled by might or myth, by sword or word.
"So we pass by Nicephorus I (802-11) and his wars with Harun al-Rashid -- Michael I (811-13), dethroned and tonsured into monkhood because of his defeat by the Bulgars -- Leo V the Armenian (813-20), who again forbade the worship of images and was assassinated while singing an anthem in church -- Michael II (820-9) the illiterate 'Stammerer,' who fell in love with a nun and persuaded the Senate to entreat him to marry her -- Theophilus (829-42), a legislative reformer, royal builder, and conscientious administrator, who revived the Iconoclastic persecution and died of dystntery -- his widow Theodora, who as an able regent (842-56) ended the persecution -- Michael III 'the Drunkard' (842-67), whose amiable incompetence left the government first to his mother and, after her death, to his cultured and capable uncle Caesar Bardas.
"Then suddenly a unique and unexpected figure appeared on the scene, overthrew every precedent except violence and founded the powerful Macedonian dynasty.
"Basil the Macedonian was born (812?) near Hadrianople of an Armenian peasant family.
"As a child he was captured by Bulgars and lived his youth among them beyond the Danube in what was then called Macedonia. Escaping in his twenty-fifth year, he made his way to Constantinople and was hired as groom by a diplomat who admired his physical strength and massive head.
"He accompanied his master on a mission to Greece and there attracted the attention, and some of the wealth, of the widow Danielis.
"Back in the capital, he tamed a spirited horse for Michael III, was taken into the Emperor's service and though quite illiterate, rose to the position of lord chamberlain.
"Basil was ever convenient and competent. When Michael sought a husband for hs mistress, Basil divorced his peasant wife, sent her to Thrace with a comforting dowry and married Eudocia, who continued her services to the Emperor.
"Michael supplied Basil with a mistress, but the Macedonian thought he deserved the throne as a reward. He persuaded Michael that Bardas was plotting to depose him and then killed Bardas with his own enormous hands (866). Long accusomed to reign without ruling, Michael made Basis coemperor and left him all the tasks of government. When Michael thretened to dismiss him, Basil arranged and supervisd his assassination and became sole emperor (867).
"So, even under hereditary monarchy, career was open to talent. with such servility and crime the letterless son of a peasant established the longest of all Byzantine dynasties and began a nineteen-year reign of excellent administration, legislating wisely, judging justly, replenishing the treasury, and building new churches and palaces for the city that he had captured.
"No one dared oppose him. When he died by a hunting accident the throne passed with unwonted quiet to his son."
Much to discuss here!

Robby

Leo III seems to have been a good ruler from a general point of view. But in deciding to abolish by decree the icons that some Christians were using, he came short on one very important aspect of government.

While I was in the cantonal administration here in Switzerland, we had to decide upon a method by which to correct what seemed to be unjust prices for hospitals. It appeared in the process that one civil servant could not change the outcome of a negotiation simply by invoking a flimsy argument. Peace in a democratic system depends on the credibility of those that are in a position of authority. These persons must understand fully the needs of those that are under their authority lest their rule create chaos.

The outcome of the negotiations was changed in the end, but that was achieved by changing the entire set of rules of negotiations. This took ten years of hard work, in partnership with those to whom the rules were to be applied.

From that point of view, it is clear to me that Leo III had not understood the theological problem that was at hand. And so it is for the Iconoclasts in general. For their behaviour did not show any better understanding of what was required of believers. The believers who used icons in their liturgy, made no demands on those who did not practice their religion the same way they did. To me, the attitude of the Iconoclasts - even if Protestants and Evangelicals would agree in principle with them - showed profound disrespect for the heart of Scriptures as much as for the Christian believers themselves.

What was required of Jewish or Christian believers? It can be summarized in these passages of their own Holy Book : "And now, O Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul ..." (Deuteronomy 10: 12) It is very much in continuity with this other one: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord your God is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength." (Deuteronomy 6: 4)

Lastly: "He showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:

This according to those who believe in them is the heart of Scriptures. The covenant with the God of the Jews and the Christians must be lived in their heart. This has nothing to do with infatuation. It is the kind of love that breaks bondages; it requires courage, strength and determination.

In my life, I found that mercy is the way to freedom when it is applied to those who offend us ... A line of action which seems to have been completely out of the Iconoclasts game book.

The story of Basil reminds me of a story about Ronald Reagan. Some of you probably remember the Aquile Lauro, the cruise ship that was taken by terrorists many years ago in the Mediterranean Sea. They had scandalized the world by throwing overboard one American passenger that was wheel chair bound; which killed him. Ronald Reagan was President at the time.

The master mind of the terrorists had managed to negotiate a safe passage by airplane somewhere in Europe. Once he was airborne, Reagan sent his Air Force to encircle the plane and force it to land in Italy. Immediately, the Press around the world raised an outcry against what they believed was an illegal act of "terrorism". Then, Olof Palme, the late Prime Minister of Sweden, shared one thought that silenced the Press: "It is only common sense that criminals should be arrested."

Basil had a sense of justice, probably because he was of humble origin. He could not forget his origins and he could discern an arrogant heart from a humble one. He played by the accepted rules at the time and people were probably stunned ... but satisfied that he killed those that were arrogant and used government for their own selfish purposes. He earned the right to wield the sword in the name of justice.

The internecine policies of the iconoclasts led eventually to an east/west split between the Papacy and the Roman emperor.The Papacy saw it as just another heresy to be put down and the emperors saw it as an opportunity to control the papacy. The emperor drew support from the Jews, the Muslims, and the Hebrew Bible while the Papacy found support in the monastic community and the laity.

The argument is not a simple one though to an outsider it may appear rather childish. On the one hand the Papacy encourages the use of images for educational purposes and permits the faithful to venerate the images. On the other hand , the emperor, influenced by the objections of the God of Moses who says, "Put no Gods before me," idolatry is sinful, and the prohibitions of the Jews and the Muslims against the use of idols,issues an edict prohibiting the use of imagery. That's the bone of contention. The motivation to do something about it is political. It is part of the struggle between east and west, between the Roman Emperor and the Papacy, between the secular and the religious (even though the struggle appears to be intra-religious).

In the middle is the laity whose position is weakly articulated but who in the end decide such crises. The laity wanted their holy pictures. Not only did they venerate the images, they prayed to them, saw them as talisman, kept them close while traveling, wore them about their necks, and felt their holiness when surrounded by a number of such images when in church. These images were the household gods just as much as they were church gods. They were intercessors with the highest holy one.

While the controversy may appear to an outsider as much ado about nothing it is issues such as this one that turns the world.

Dan: D:10:12 has always been a puzzle to me. One is asked to fear the Lord, to love him, and to serve him with all one's heart. Fear is not basis for love. Quite the opposite is the case in humans. Fear breeds opposition not love.

Byzantine Life

566-1095

This dazzling LINK gives us Bizantine Art Icons that took my breath away. Be sure to scroll to the bottom and click on the icon gallery and linger a while.

"At the beginning of the eleventh century the Greek Empire, through the arms and statesmanship of the Isaurian and Macedonian dynasties, had reached again the power, wealth, and culture of its zenith under Justinian.
"Asia Minor, northern Syria, Cyprus, Rhodes, the Cyclades, and Crete had been wrested from the Moslems. Southern Italy was once more Magna Grecia, ruled by Constantinople.
"The Balkans had been recaptured from Bulgars and Slavs. Byzantine industry and commerce again dominated the Mediterranean. Greek Christianity had triumphed in the Balkans and Russia. Greek art and literature were enujoying a Macedonian renaissance.
"The revenue of the state in the eleventh century reached the present equivalent of $2,400,000,000.
"Constantinople was at the crest of its curve, surpassing ancient Rome and Alexandria, contemporary Baghdad and Cordova, in trade, wealth, luxury, beauty, refinement, and art.
"Its population of nearly a million was now predominantly Asiatic or Slav -- Armenians, Cappadocians, Syrians, Jews,Bulgars, and half-Slav Greeks, with a colorful infusion of merchants and soldiers from Scandinavia, Russia, Italy, and Islam. At the top a thinning layer of Greek aristocrats.
"A thousand varieties of homes -- gabled, terraced, or domed -- with balconies, loggias, gardens, or pergolas. Full markets reeking with the products of all the world. A thousand narrow muddy streets of tenements and shops. Splendid thoroughfares bordered with stately mansions and shady porticoes, popled with statuary, spanned with arches of triumph, and leading out to the counryside through guarded gates in the fortress walls.
"Complex royal palaces -- the Triconchus of Theophilus, the New Palace of Basil I, the Bucoleon of Nicephorus Phocas, descending by marble stairs to a sculptured colonnaded wharf on the Sea of Marmora.
"Churches 'as many as there are days in the year' (said a traveler) and several of them architectural jewels. Altars enshrining the most revered and precious relics in Christendom. Monasteries unashamedly magnificent without, and turbulent with proud saints within.
"St. Sophia ever newly adorned, glowing with candles and lamps, heavy with incense, solemn with pageantry, sonorous with convincing chants.
"This was the frame, half gold and half mud, of teeming life in the Byzantine capital."
Sounds like New York City to me.

Robby

Map of BYZANTINE EMPIRE IN 12TH CENTURY.

Robby

It reminds me of the magnificense of Rome and the papal funeral and the subsequent resurection of the papacy under Benedict. The pomp and pagentry,aided by a display of gold and jewels, vestments and incense, and all next door to the mud of Roman poverty gave the event an aura of the Middle Ages.

There resides within one a love of beauty - joyous surroundings, and a display of what many individuals deem to be lovely. It would have been great to travel back there in time to see the cities of Byzantium.

I love a city. Have always been delighted with art direction in movies showing ancient and medieval cities - wonderful talent displayed there. Not enough of these, anymore.

When I visited Italy for the first time thirty years ago, my cousin warned me that Italy would appear dirty "because it is so very old". True, in Lucca, St. Michael's Church, in particular, a white stone structure seemed so fragile and crumbly, that I told my husband, "In the States, this would have been torn down years ago!"

Eloise:

Thanks for the link of the icons. Beautiful colors!

enjoyed the icons and especially this page which explains step by step how it is done. we did something of the sort in a techiniques class at UCLA in egg tempra. we made our own gesso and used rabbit glue too. did many layers of transparent color etc. any of you who are interested in painting have a LOOKat portables

and for frescos here

Claire

Thank you Claire for the links on fresco and egg tempera technigues in iconography construction. Although I am familiar with these methods it is always nice to have a refresher when one begins to talk about such applications. You are probably aware that much of the gilding on wood panels in this period was finished with hammered edges and haloes.

I have a panel icon of a madonna and child by a minor artist done in hammered gilt and egg tempera. I bought it in Venice some years ago from a dealer who said it was done in the eleventh century. I thought it was done in 1960 and left to fade a little in the sun. But no matter, it hangs on my wall gathering dust,while reminding me of my glorious youth. .

Justin: your post #479. I suspect that the word fear in connection with the God of the Jews and the Christians has a very different meaning than what humans are accustomed to. That meaning though will only appear to those who are in a personal relationship with him; they are those who believe that He exists, that He created the Universe and that He has opened the way to establish a personal relationship with him through his covenant. These people are in position to discover the grace He desperately desires to manifest to those who love Him. These people know that they have nothing to fear from their God if they abide in Him.

Some say that the problem with God is that He thinks he’s God, and so He passes judgment. According to His Holy Book : [Mankind separated itself from Him - the judgment for this is almost self-evident: to be eternally separated from Him. But in his love for humanity He paid the price Himself for paving the way to restore that relationship.] This is to say that His sense of Justice is different from human’s understanding of justice. To Paraphrase the Quality Standards motto: He says what He means, He means what He says and He can prove it. He sticks to his word; this is something that those who are in covenant with Him must also bear in mind, even if they benefit from of his grace.

This in my opinion is what the word fear approximately means when in relationship with the God of the Jews and the Christians.

"Within the city palaces of the aristocracy and the great merchants and in the villas of seaside and hinterland, every luxury available to that age could be found and decoration unihhibited by Semitic tabus -- marbles of every grain and hue, murals and mosaics, sculpture and fine pottery, curtains sliding on silver rods, tapestries, and carpets and silks, doors inlaid with silver or ivory, furniture exquisitely carved, table services of silver or gold.
"Here moved the world of Byzantine society -- men and women of fine face and figure, dressed in colored silks and lace and furs, and rivaling the graces, amours, and intrigues of Bourbon Paris and Versailles. Never were ladies better powdered and scented, jeweled and coiffured. In the imperial palaces fires were kept burning all the year long to brew the perfumes required to deodorize queens and princesses.
"Never before had life been so ornate and ceremonious, so colorful with processions, receptions, spectacles and games, so minutely ordained by protocol and etiquette. At the Hippodrome as well as in the court, the firmly estblished aristocrcy flaunted its finest raiment and ornament.
"On the highways its stately equipages passed, so reckless as to earn the hatred of the pedestrian poor and so rich as to bring down the anathema of prelates who served God in vessels and on altars, of marble, alabaster, silver and gold.
"Constantinople, said Robert of Clari, contained 'two thirds of the world's wealth.' Even the common 'Greek inhabitants' reported Benjamin of Tudela, 'seem all to be the children of kings.'
"Said a twelfth-century writer:-'If Constantinople surpasses all other cities in wealth, it also surpasses them in vice.'
"All the sins of a great city found room here, impartially in rich and poor. Brutality and piety took turns in the same imperial souls.
"Among the people intensity of religious need could be adjusted to the corruption or violence of politics and war. The castration of children to serve as eunuchs in harems and administration -- the assassination or blinding of present or potential rivals for the throne -- continued through divers dynasties and the monotonous kaleidoscope of changeless change.
"The populace, disordered and manipulated by divisions of race, class, or creed, was fickle, bloodthirsty, periodically turbulent -- bribed by the state with doles of bread, oil, and wines, diverted by horse races, beast baitings, rope dancing, indecent pantomines in the theater, and by imperial or ecclesiastical pageantry in the streets.
"Gambling halls and saloons were everywhere. Houses of prostitution could be found on almost every street, sometimes 'at the very church doors.' The women of Byzantium were famous for their licentiousness and their religious devotion, the men for their quiet intelligence and unscrupulous ambition.
"All classes believed in magic, astrology, divination, sorcery, witchcraft, and miraculous amulets. The Roman virtues had disappeared even before the Latin tongues. Roman and Greek qualities had been overwhelmed by a flood of uprooted Orientals who had lost their own morality and had taken on no other except in words.
"Yet even in this highly theological and sensual society the great majority of men and women were decent citizens and parents, who settld down after youthful frolics to the joys and sorrows of family life and grudgingly performed the work of the world. The same emperors who blinded their rivals poured out charity to hospitals, orphanages, homes for the aged, free hostels for travelers.
"And in that aristocracy where luxury and ease seemed the order of every day, there were hundreds of men who gave themselves, with a zeal tempered by venality, to the tasks of administration and statesmanship, and somehow managed, despite all overturns and intrigues, to save the realm from every disaster, and to maintain the most prosperous economy in the medieval Christian world."
"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

Robby

Here is a page on BYZANTINE ART with many links attached to it. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

This link (with related links) talks about BYZANTINE ARCHITECTURE.

Robby

MORE about Byzantine Art and Architecture.

Robby

"the perfumes required to deodorize queens and princesses." Oh Dear! Was there ever an age when natural odor was accepted? Perfume as one of the desiderata of civilization?

Yes Robby, the period was quite opulent, the arts flourished, but the people had the same human nature.

Bubble, Durant chose "deodorize" but it is my estimation that royalty bathed in Bizantium don't you think? It's seems funny to me that he presumed that they needed it.

Great links Robby.

Dan: There is no rationality in religious belief. There is only the desire to believe and it supersedes all reason. I read your most recent post and see the latest evidence of it. Men like Philo, Augustine, Acquinas, Abelard and Maimonides struggled with the issue using the tools of reason. They applied the tools of philosophy to theology and came up short. Some,like Abelard, threatened with the stake, backed away. Augustine caved in and adjusted to the elephant in the room. Acquinas provided propaganda clothed in the language of philosophy. They failed to recognize, with the possible exception of Abelard, that theology is a creature of the psyche not philosophy. Men like Paul and Mohammud take advantage of man's gullibility in order to achieve a sense of personal importance.

I sometimes feel as Cervantes great character felt while tilting with windmills.

Bubble and Eloise - Yes, I imagine the rich took long luxurious baths...but I suspect their clothing was hardly wash and wear. Clothing made of fabrics that were not washable may well have needed to be deodorized. (or discarded?)

Sun

I don't know about the time period we are studying, but I have read several places that Queen Elizabeth took a bath once a year. I doubt standards were much stricter earlier, although the Romans seem to be an exception.

I think the garments of those days for general wear - not ceremonials - were made of linen - flax - and silk. They had learned to spin silk from the cocoons of the silkworm. They would have been washable and just hung up to dry. Since there were so many folds in those garments, ironing may have not been necessary. What did they use, a heated iron or stone? I don't know.

Some information on Byzantine clothing. No ironing was mentioned.

Byzantine Clothing

DanielDe You say :- "These people are in position to discover the grace He desperately desires to manifest to those who love Him. These people know that they have nothing to fear from their God if they abide in Him."

Do you 'know ' that, or do you just "believe" that? The one thing folk learn in life, is that belief is not knowledge. Throughout the centuries, folk have believed, with all their hearts and minds, in many things, which we now know to be false.

Through my experience I have found, to the best of my knowledge, that God treats all persons equally. The good and the bad, the sinners and the righteous. I dare say that Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot etc, experienced as much good health, pleasure and enjoyment during their sinful lives aa you and I in ours. I expect you would claim that in the hereafter, their souls will be subject to eternal damnation, for the pain and suffering they have caused others. Surely a Just god, like a Just human father, would have protected the innocent by proactive action?

The dinosaurs where wiped out of existence by a chance encounter between this planet and an asteroid. There is no reason to suppose that a similar fate will not befall the Human race. In the Universe, what comes around, goes around, as they say. In any case, this Solar system, and any life which it supports will cease to exist. In other words humans are destined to go the way of all life.

Science "knows" this. Against this knowledge, religion can offer only "belief". IMHO that is a poor alternative, not withstanding the poetry and wonder that belief may bring those who suffer.

None of the above means we should not strive to do good, and aid the sorely tried. We should do this, not for hope of reward in some heaven beyond the stars, but for the experience of happiness here and now. This life is all we know and have.++ Trevor

Trevor; Your 501 is honest and well said.

Very well expressed Trevor, and from two different and maybe opposite sides of earth we seem to have a similar understanding.

SoC obliges us to be open to pro and con, to think,to opine. What a great place to be, what a great Durants achievement.

"The Eastern Empire in this period acquired an urban and semi-industrial character quite different from the ruralism of Latin Europe north of the Alps.
"Miners and metallurgists actively explored and developed the lead, iron, copper, and gold in the soil. Not only Constantinople but a hundred other Byzantine cities -- Smyrna, Tarsus, Ephesus, Durazzo, Ragussa, Patras, Corinth, Thebes, Salonika, Hadrianople, Heracles, Selymbria -- throbbed and resounded with tanners, cobblers, saddlers, armorers, goldsmiths, jewelers, metal workers, carpenters, wood carvers, wheelwrights, bakers, dyers, weavers, potters, mosaicists, painters.
"As caldrons and caverns of manufaccturing and exchange, Constantinople, Baghdad, and Cordova in the ninth century almost rivaled the bustle and bedlam of a modern metropolis.
"Despite Persian competition the Greek capital still led the white world in the production of fine tissues and silks. Only second to it in theis regard were Argos, Corinth, and Thebes. The textile industry was highly organized and used much slave labor. Most other workers were free artisans.
"The proletarian population of Constantinople and Salonika were class conscious and staged many unsuccessful revolts. Their employers formed a considerable middle class -- acquisitive, charitable, industrious, intelligent, and fiercely conservative. The major industries, including their workers, artists, managers, merchants, lawyers, and financiers, were organized into systemata, or corporation guilds, literally descended from the ancient collegia and artes, and akin to the large economic units of a modern 'corporative' state.
"Each corporation had a monopoly in its line but was strictly regulated by legislation in its purchases, prices, methods of manufacture, and conditions of safe governmental examiners kept surveillance over operations and accounts, At times maximum wages were fixed by law. Minor industries, however, were left to free workers and individual enterprise.
"The arrangement gave order, prosperity, and continuity to Byzantine industry but it checked initiative and invention and tended to an Oriental fixity of status and life."
Again, the topic of class is raised. Any similarity with the corporations and workers of today?
These are the same cities we look down on today as being far behind the times. Are we "looking through a glass darkly?"

Robby

In the "LAND OF CONSTANTINOPLE" the descendants of the East -- be they Moslems or Orthodox -- are beginning to question the advantages of merging with the West.

Robby

"Each corporation had a monopoly in its line"

Talking about Salonika, this reminds me that to these days they are renowned as strong harbor workers or honest goods-handlers. That is the first thing that comes to mind when Salonikans are mentionned in Israel.

Here's a unique PROJECT with a positive approach.

Robby

Is HISTORY repeating itself?

Robby

I like very much the idea underlined in PROJECT. There can be no real understanding and acceptance without the knowledge. It is the reason I am so grateful to my US hosts in two months time, to have organized a visit at their Baptist church where I can be with them in a service and talk to the people afterwards: they offer a communal meal after the meeting.

Faiths can divide, but it can also be a source of sharing and understanding.

And, as you know, Bubble, as soon as I know the details, I will be there in Carolina to visit with you in September and to visit with Mal who, of course, will be back home long before then. Plus anyone else here who would like to join us.

Robby

Trevor, thanks for your words of wisdom.

Robby, from the Labor Day week-end onward, I'll be in Durham for a whole week. Start making LONG plans, . I am getting my visa this week- at long last.

I'll be happy to see anyone who wants to come and visit.

100% of debt forgiven to African countries by the G8. The best news I have heard in a long long time HERE. "The 18 countries whose debts will be wiped out are: Benin, Bolivia, Burkina Faso, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guyana, Honduras, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Nicaragua, Niger, Rwanda, Senegal, Tanzania, Uganda and Zambia. - Reuters"

Bubble, I would walk to NC to visit with you if I could.

Justin: "There is no rationality in religious belief." I did not suspect that you were pursuing a line of thought - I will keep this in mind. However, I almost agree with you, I am afraid to say (wink, wink, Robby). If a man hopes to win a lady’s heart, he will not send her a dissertation. But, does that make sense?

What I mean is that religious belief is something which IMHO begins and ends in the heart. Introducing reason in there in very much akin to trying to win a ladies heart with a dissertation.

Any comments regarding the Byzantine Empire?

Robby

Here are some FACTBITES about the Byzantine Empire -- little easily understood snippets that can help us put the entire empire together in our minds.

Robby

Trevor: your point is very well taken and your question is challenging. Here is what Immanuel Kant said about this in his Critique of Pure Reason: "Without doubt no one can boast that he knows that there is a God and a future life; for, if he knows, he is precisely the man that I have been wanting to meet for a long time." (Transcendental Methodology; 2nd Chapter, 3rd section) With that statement in background, I will risk profiling myself as presumptuous. But the statement that I made and that you quoted is indeed something that I "know"; it is not something that I "only" believe in. I do believe though that I am not the first one to be able to say this; certainly there existed others also at the time of Kant. He was unfortunate not to have been able to meet them.

If I am correct, Kant did not think that it was possible to "know" that there is a God because, in his methodology, the existence of a spiritual being fell out of the domain of experience that was attainable through reason. If such a God could be "known" by reason, that "knowledge" could then be transmitted simply through teaching, which obviously was not possible; it required something in addition to the teaching, a "conviction". In short, he admitted that the "knowledge" of a God fell out of the domain of pure reason. But it did not mean that there were no God. Again, he believed that "no reasonable man can undertake to prove apodictically (using pure reason) that a God or a future life do not exist" (same reference as above). Put this way, I agree with him. And I add that if one presupposes that a God exists, it may be possible to "experience" that God if - in fact - the presupposition corresponds to a truth.

Kant closes that chapter about faith in a way which may be surprising. The conclusion, he admits, could have been arrived at using common sense rather than philosophy. Then he puts this question: "... do you therefore require that a knowledge which is of general interest should stand above common sense and be revealed to you only through philosophers?"

i am assuming that we should move on to another section in Durant as no one appears interested in the history of Constantinople or the Byzantine Empire.

Robby

In Robby's post#490, there is mention of "homes for the aged" in Byzantine times. That is surprising considering life expectancy at the time and the fact that most aged people were taken care of by their family, since nursing care as we know it today did not exist. It seems to point out though there was some central (king's) funding for those homes. The funding for them could be seen as a precursor of today's health insurance.

another name from my past. I remember a frequent visitor from this group. . . my activist father was involved with them. . . .so there will be a bash i september. . . thinking. . . Claire

Robby:

I am interested, and enjoying the reading very much, but we are going lickety-split here. I like to savor the information, and poke around on the various links for additional information. I shall be able to post only sporadically as I come back from cardiac rehab truly tired and with a sore right arm. I shall be here, and be assured that I am enjoying all the information very much.

Re: Belief in God: It's a matter of faith - people just know, and as Daniel said, it begins and ends in the heart. There is absolutely no reason to propose towards a belief.

MeriJo:-We are going lickety-split because your DL is trying to complete this volume and the remaining seven volumes before he becomes a centenarian. He would feel more comfortable if you would volunteer to become DL in the event that he suddenly shuffles off this mortal coil.

Robby

Robby, don't talk like that. The heat must be getting to you too. It was 100 F today in Montreal, unheard of. How can we think in this weather. Still it's better than 40 below any day.

Take good care of yourselves everybody, don't do too much, take a cool shower or a cool bath, cool drink.

begs to serve as a research vehicle for a historian of any period. The information is so generalized. A person writing about any particular period or studying it in detail would find it useful as a guide, but not particularily entertaining in itself. It's encyclopediac with a primary emphasis on the history of POWER . I' more interested in the comments you all are making when we stop at a given way station to discuss what it means to us in the present and too pursue the graphic links that were not available when this work was written. . . .Claire

Robby:

I am just too slow, but I certainly wouldn't want the job of DL - you're doing a marvelous job. Do stay well. Particularly like your links and comments as we go along.

If I started here two years ago before I fell apart like a one-horse shay I could keep up with the lot of you. Just keep on going lickety-split and I'll say a few words now and then.

MeriJo:-I am a firm believer that the mind runs the body. Without taking time or space here, I could give many examples. Let me merely say that if you let all the other participants here continue to stimulate your mind, you may be amazed how your body will strenghen.

Robby

every morning I'm stiff and sore and quite miserable because of it. on the way to the kitchen to make coffee I flip on the computer and on the way back. I nudge this body into the chair in front of it and come on line. within minutes I feel better because I'm out of me and into all of you. A couple of hours of this is curative.. this body is a mess too merijo. I know whereof you speak but it helps to get out of it. the mind still works more or less with occasional word shortages. . . and that's what we are using here. . .the links are wonderful. There is no end to exploring our cyber universe. . .and or need to compete or keep up. we cross stimulate each other with our comments which makes it warm and human and Robby is doing a great job. I don't envy him the chore.

but must be shared . . . naturally about art.

Web Gallery of Art

covers european art and the periods we discuss and more detail than you probably want. . . . Claire

robby;

Thank you so much for your encouragement. I find great comfort in visiting here and seeing and reading about lovely and interesting things.

winsum:

What a lovely site! I shall return to it. Thank you.

And thanks for your pep-talk. I can't walk yet very well, but find the same sort of solace in using the computer that you do.

The Byzantine Renaissance

"From the labor and skill of the people and the superfluities of the rich there came in the ninth and tenth centuries a remarkable revival of letters and arts.
"Although the Empire to its dying day called itself Roman, nearly all Latin elements had disappeared from it except Roman law. Since Heraclius, Greek had been the language of government, literature and liturgy, as well as of daily speech, in the Byzantine East. Education was now completely Greek.
"Nearly every free male, many women, even many slaves, received some education. The University of Constantinople which, like letters in general, had been allowed to decay in the crises of the Heracleian age, was restored by Caesar Bardas (863), and attained high repute for its courses in philology, philosophy, theology, astronomy, mathematics, biology, music, and lieterature. Even the pagan Libanius and the godless Lucian were read. Tuition was largely free to qualified students and the teachers were paid by the state.
"Libraries, public and private, were numerous, and still preserved those classic masterpieces which had been forgotten in the disordered West.
"This ample transmission of the Greek heritage was at once stimulating and restrictive.
"It sharpened and widened thought and lured it from its old round of homilerical eloquence and theological debate. But its very wealth discouraged originality. It is easier for the ignorant than for the learned to be orginal.
"Byzantine literature was intended chiefly for cultured and leisurely ladies and gentlemen. Polished and polite, artistic and artificial, Hellenistic but not Hellenic, it played on the surface and spared the heart of human life.
"Though the churchmen of the period were remarkably tolerant, thought of its own accord, through habits formed in youth, stayed within the circle of orthodoxy and the iconoclasts were more pious than the priests."
Anyone here who would prefer to live in that Byzantine culture rather than in the present one? Practically every one received an education. Tuition was largely free. Teachers were paid by the state.
We have talked often here about class. What if you were born into a poverty-stricken uneducated class. What if you were not a "leisurely lady or gentleman?" Do you lose out on the benefits of that type of education or do you become upwardly mobile?
Is it true that the ignorant are more original than the learned? Is necessity truly the mother of invention? Do learned people become stilted?
And I wonder through all this -- why did the Roman elements disappear in a culture which considered itself Roman? What did the East have which the West did not?

Robby

Robby, I don't believe all the uneducated are ignorant. It depends on their opportunity to access an education. It sometimes is impossible to get an education but the bright ones will no doubt leave their milieu to more a satisfying position according to their talent at rising above it. I don't believe that the ignorant have more originality, it's the creativity that some have in larger quantity than makes them original no matter in what segment of the social strata they belong to.

Our most prolific French Canadian author, Michel Trembley, was born and raised in a lower class area of Montreal, yet he is the most widely read French playwright in the world at the moment and his work is translated in in don't know how many languages.

A high education sometimes stifles creativity because it seeks perfection according to some higher academic authority. The uneducated is not hampered by previous teacher's knowledge. They can create outright from imagination. It helps to learn to draw from an art school, then be free to create unhampered is more important.

In searching for originality the Roman culture didn't offer anything new and the status quo in anything means slow death in the end. Creativity rises from old ruins. Those who have reached higher levels whether in economy, art, business tend to sit on their laurels and it hampers creativity sometimes, not always, but most of the time.

Éloïse

Here is an ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING LINK to the International Philo-Byzantine Academy and University. In addition to information about Byzantium, you will read info about Costa Rica, Venezuela, and Columbia. What do they have to do with the Byzantine culture? Read on, dear friends.
As usual, consider the source of the link.

Robby

Despite the confusing title given to THIS ARTICLE, it contains much detailed information about the 1000-year-long civilization we are now examining.
Note in particular this sentence it contains:-"Much of the Byzantine history is not well studied by Western historians. Byzantium played, however, a crucial role in Western European history." Durant has warned us constantly that to understand the culture in which we live, we must examine the cultures from which we came.

Robby

maybe I should be studying the history of texas. . .claire

When I was young in the 1950s I used to live at the local library, but now I see where my local library is closing. It is sad to see this happening, but they "say" they don't have the money to keep it open. I guess I am as much to blame for this "closing" as anyone. It has been a long time since I was at the library. It became a resting place for lots of children dropped off by their parents, teenagers doing homework and talking loudly on cell phones and the books themselves were falling apart at the seams. It's just easier to go on-line and get books from used book stores for pennies. Still it's sad to see the closing of our library. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that I'd want to live in the past or at least this past, but I do miss my quiet library of the not to recent past.

Claire:-If you had been with us when we were reading "Our Oriental Heritage," you would have come to realize that much of what you say and do in Texas (and every other state) came from the Orient.

Robby

Scrawler:-Another alternative to the library is being in the quiet of your home and participating in "The Story of Civilization".

Robby

off and on. . . my referal to texas was a cloaked political remark which I know is a no no. . . . just snuck it in. . . Claire

Claire:-I hadn't even thought of it that way. I was thinking geography.

Robby

MESSAGE FROM MAL

My health is improving daily. The only thing is that I got scared out of my wits when I looked in the mirror today to see somebody I don't recognize at all, because I am SO THIN. Maybe by the time I leave here I will have lost some of the "death warmed over" look I have at the moment. I'm going to have Dorian take a picture of me so I can use it for Halloween graphics next October. "This could happen to YOU if you don't get home before midnight Halloween!"

Mal

Somehow in reading about Byzantium here, it may not have been so bad being born in a poverty-stricken, uneducated class. I think that the public in general had a love of learning and beauty that is unknown here among Americans except in very isolated incidents, if there. These poor people were surrounded by beauty, by people who were interested in knowledge, and spoke in awe and great respect of scholars and teachers. I believe it would permeate their language, their impressions of strangers, and they would be influenced by the ambience of the place.

Years ago in the "dark ages" for me, I studied characteristics of the gifted child, and although there was no one single characteristic attributed to one child, there would be found a dominant one or two. The child with the "A" grades would be knowledgeable and/or talented. Knowledgeable as a doctor would be, talented as a pianist/ artist would be, but the most creative child would be the one that had consistently "C" grades. The explanation being, that in this instance would be an overriding interest in whatever creative pursuit he/she would be following that grades did not seem important nor figured much in his/her activity. This could be devastating to today's American parent, but I think that a creative person back in the days of Byzantium would be one held in high esteem for what he/she produced. Please remember that one would not be wholly creative, but a combination of one or two of the gifted characteristics and an amount of the third. Each person would be so unique in his intellectual pursuit. There would not be the differentiation I have made here, but the impression would be of a very competent and accomplished person, I think. Byzantium would create such a rich environment, I think. Probably led to the many gifts to civilization from that period, and the poor, uneducated origins of such a person may have made little difference. As I write this, I remember someone named Basil of poor beginnings who went on to become the head of the empire, I think.

Merijo’s story about student’s intellectual characteristics reminds me of a colleague at University. He was a brilliant mind but his goal never was to achieve high grades. The last I spoke with him was at the end of the last year after we had received our transcripts. He was boasting his "C" level average because they had required a low level of work that left time for "other things"; I don’t know what they were. Than he proudly told me that he had found a job as a banker in Seychelles Islands ...

What strikes me concerning Bysantine society is that it seemed opulent economically, enough to be able to finance schools, hospitals, libraries and charitable organizations through "public" funding (the ruler’s treasury). This is an indication of a very creative society, not only in the arts but also in commerce. High revenue arises from creativity in the economic domain.

Daniel, your post reminded me of my son Eitan. He left school as soon as it was allowed, after two year of high shool (HS = 6years here) . Then he went to learn psychology and computer programming at the Open University where he needed a signature from his parents because of his young age. He did brilliantly but... did not present himself to the exams: he felt no need to have a diploma in his pocket and he too is very proud of that fact. Now he works in investments and finance counselling (sp?) and wants to equal Bill Gates.

I think that a formal education is mainly good because it gives the tools to further the learning oneself. Being surrounded by art, by a intellectually developped environment, certainly helps to emulate more achievments.

Those worrying with how to put a meal on the table or have a roof to sleep under wouldn't have much time to be creative in any other field than the daily survival. On the other hand I feel that too many creative talents would hinder a person in choosing a field in life.

Have you read "the illiterate surgeon" In today's NT Times? "Mamitu, one of the world's premier obstetric fistula surgeons, just started third grade."

It is amazing.

120 to graduate . . . never bothered. . . art and psych majors only a raw beginning to a lifetime of learning. . . and then I didn't expect to have to make a living. when that happened clerical and real estate worked, art even commercial art didn't. it's something women can afford if they stay married and let HIM bring home the bacon. . truly a luxury and not always a choice. . . .claire

This is the ARTICLE to which Bubble refers.

Robby

Ignorance and creativity go hand in hand but only the educated can recognize the usefulness of a creative solution. The problem is one of generation. Creativity requires an open and unfettered mind to function well. Typically,the well trained mind is neither open nor unfettered. It is often focused and apt to find reasons a new proposal will not work.

Today, problem solvers use peer review to get around blockages. The reviewers who come up with the most creative solutions are often those who know least about the problem or it's proposed solution. That's because the problem solver has made assumptions while studying the problem that peer reviewers in their ignorance have not made. So their minds are unfettered and their suggestions very creative.

"Byzantine civilization performed three vital functions.
"For a thousand years it stood as a bulwark of Europe against Persia and Eastern Islam.
"It faithfully cherished and fully transmitted -- until plundered by the Crusaders in 1204 -- the recopied texts that handed down the literature, science, and philosophy of ancient Greece. Monks fleeing Iconoclast emperors brought Greek manuscripts to South Italy and restored there a knowledge of Greek letters. Greek professors, shunning Moslem and Crusader alike, left Constantinople, sometimes settled in Italy and served as carriers of the classic germ. So year by year Italy rediscovered Greece until men drank themselves drunk at the fountain of intellectual freedom.
"And finally it was Byzantium that won Bulgars and Slavs from barbarism to Christianity and brought the immeasurable force of the Slavic body and soul into the life and destiny of Europe."
Robby

what an interesting analysis of problem solving among the creative. It's nice when they are capable of linear thought as well as associative thought though. that's where genius lies. . . . claire

The Balkans

558-1057

"Only a few hundred miles north of Constantinople were troubled oceans of men disdainful of letters and half in love with war.
"The Hun tide had hardly ebbed when a new people of kindred blood, the Avars, moved fro Turkestan through southern Russia (550), enslaved masses of Slavs, raided Germany to the Elbe (562), drove the Lombards into Italy (568), and so ravaged the Balkans that the Latin-speaking population there was almost wiped out.
"For a time the power of the Avars reached from the Baltic to the Black Sea.
"In 626 they besieged and almost captured Constantinople. Their failure began their decline.
"In 805 they were conquered by Charlemagne and gradually they were absorbed by the Bulgars and the Slavs.
"The Bulgars, originally a mixture of Hun, Ugrian, and Turkish blood, had formed part of the Hun empire in Russia.
"After Attila's death one branch established a kingdom -- 'Old Bulgaria' -- along the Volga around the modern Kazan. Their capital, Bolgar, was enriched by the river trade and prospered until it was detroyed by the Tartars in the thirteenth century.
"In the fifth century another branch migrated southwest to the valley of the Don. One tribe of these, the Urigars, crossed the Danube (670), founded a second Bulgarian kingdom in the ancient Moesia, enslaved the Slavs there, adopted their language and institutions, and were ultimately absorbed into the Slavic stock.
"The new state reached its zenith under the Khagan or Khan (Chief) Krum (802), a man of barbarian courage and civilized cunning.
"He invaded Macedonia -- a province of the Eastern Empire -- captured 1100 pounds of gold and burned the town of Sardica, now, as Sofia, Bulgaria's capital."
We now come to names which are familiar to us in the daily news. Let us begin to better understand the Balkan peninsula.
Any comments on Durant's historical scenario presented here?

Robby

Here is a MAP of the Balkans. Note Turkey (home of the former Constantinople) in the lower right and how close it is to Bulgaria.

Robby

This MAP of Bulgaria shows Turkey in the south, the Danube River at the north, the Black Sea to the East, and the capital, Sofia, to the West.

Robby

Here is an excellent detailed history of BULGARIA. How little we in the West seem to know about this part of Europe.
This link tells us that Khan Krum, mentioned by Durant, passed a new type of legislature establishing Bulgaria as an organized and modern state.
We also learn in this link that Pope John Paul II announced Cyril and Methodius, two monk brothers of Bulgarian origin, patrons of civilized Europe. They created the Bulgarian-Slavic writing. The alphabet created by them is used nowadays in Russia, Macedonia, Ukraine, Bolarus, the former Yugoslavia, and Mongolia.
I urge you folks to take the time to read this link. It tells us much about that part of Europe with which we should be acquainted but most of us aren't.

Robby

Here are some excellent photos of SOFIA, CAPITAL OF BULGARIA. Many of us know people who have visited France, Italy, Greece, etc. etc. Does anyone here know people who have visited Bulgaria? If not, why not?

Robby

I spent some time going through the link in post 555 browsing through and among other excellent sites, I found THIS one of Bulgarian Monasteries very beautiful for their setting and their varied architecture. One of them in a mountainside grotto. Also some resorts which rival in luxury of those in the West. Thank you for posting them.

Oh yes I know many people who visited Bulgaria and Sofia, also a few people who were born there and live in Israel now.

We have quite a lot of Bulgarian restaurants and their salted baking is really something to brag about. Many of those Bulgarian eateries are in or around Yaffo, the old Tel Aviv port: the view of the sea is something Bulgarians always enjoy.

A map of TURKEY, 69 million people, so big next to Bulgaria which has only seven and half million. Daniel I thought about you who is interested in Turkey right now.

I don't know of a country I have enjoyed more than this visit to Bulgaria. It's history is so replete with defeat and yet the country ends up after a millennium of foreign invasion and socialist dictatorship with a parliamentary democracy. The monasteries are artistic gems embellished by the colorful forms of Orthodox Christianity and Byzantium and set in the beautiful surroundings of the Bulgarian countryside. I want to travel again.

how about as a group? great rates that way and plenty of pushers aroound for the wheel chairs. . . think about it. . claire

BALKANS in the news.

Robby

More BALKAN news.

Robby

My son honeymooned in Bulgaria. He sent a Postcard of the Black Sea saying "Guess what? It isn't really black!" I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and assumed he was just kidding.

Re the brutality in the Balkans, I saw heartwrenching footage on the News of a mother of one of the executed men. She saw her son murdered on TV. He turned his head just before he was shot and she saw his face. I can't forget her anguish, it haunts me still.

I've been mulling for a long time over the brutality of war as described in these articles. Would we all descend to that level, given a set of circumstances? I think of my friends and family, and think it's not possible, but something happens, some line is crossed, somehow.

A geneticist in Britain who worked on the DNA testing for Genghis Khan's Descendants said "these ancient conquerors lived in a very different world to us, and where they got was because of their own hard work. We can't really judge them morally." I don't know whether we can or not, like the brutality in war. are there exceptions?

I have just returned from obeying a Tsunami warning to evacuate the central CA. coast. An earthquake off the coast of Humboldt County caused the concern. The wave was forecast to hit San Francisco by 9;23pm.tonight. We have never had a tsunami prior to this event. Why now? Do you suppose they proliferate like nail shops. One good tsunami deserves another.

The Byzantine world spoke Greek, passed on translations of ancient Greek manuscrpits, brought the beauty of color to religious experience, and through trade brought prosperity to the eastern cities. It was a renaisance of sorts. But the sad part of the rivival is that Greece failed for a thousand years to contribute a single innovation to civilization. All channels of learning were subservient to the superstitions of Christianity. Religion dominated life in Byzantium. Greece of the Classical Age was transported to the Latin world in chains and was then led to the scaffold of Christianity where it died, a shell of it's former greatness.

that Tsunani warning, had me ready to leave too but I'm much further south than you are. . . exciting huh? Claire

Welcome back to SofC, Jan! We are looking forward to your comments as we discuss the Balkans and later the birth of Russia.

Robby

"The Emperor Nicephorus bettered the insruction by burning Pliska, Krum's capital (811) but Krum trapped and destroyed the Greek army in a mountain pass, slew Nicephorus, and made the imperial skull his drinking cup.
"In 813 he besieged Constantinople, fired its suburbs, and devastated Thrace, rehearsing the events of 1913. He was preparing another attack when he burst a blood vessel and died. His son Omurtag made peace with the Greeks who yielded to him half of Thrace.
"Under Khan Boris (852-88) Bulgaria adopted Christianity. Boris himself, after a long reign, enterd a monastery -- emerged four years later to depose his elder son Vladmir and enthrone his younger son Simeon -- lived until 907 -- and was canonized as the first of Bulgaria's national saints.
"Simeon (893-917) became one of the great kings of his time. He extended his rule to Serbia and the Adriatic, called himself 'Emperor and Autocrat of All the Bulgars and Greeks,' and repeatedly made war against Byzantium. He tried to civilize his people with translated Greek literature and to beautify his Danubian capital with Greek art.
"A contemporary describes Preslav as 'a marvel to behold' full of 'high palaces and churches' richly adorned. In the thirteenth century it was the largest city in the Balkans. Some scanty ruins remain.
"After Simeon's death Bulgaria was weakened with civil strife. Bogomil heretics converted half the peasantry to pacifism and communism.
"Serbia recovered its independence in 931. The Emperor John Tzimisces reconquered eastern Bulgaria for the Greek Empire in 972.
"Basil II conquered western Bulgaria in 1014. Bulgaria became again (1018-1186) a province of Byzantium.
"Meanwhile that harassed Empire had received a visit (934-42) from a new barbarian horde.
"The Magyars, like the Bulgars, were probably derived from those tribes, loosely named Ugri or Igurs (whence ogre) who wandered on the wstern confines of China. They too, had through long association, a strong infusion of Hun and Turkish blood. They spoke a tongue closely related to those of the Finns and the Samoyeds.
"In the ninth century they migrated from the Ural-Caspian steppes to the lands adjoining the Don, the Dnieper, and the Black Sea. There they lived by tilling the soil in summer, fishing in winter, and at all seasons capturing and selling Slavs as slaves to the Greeks.
"After some sixty years in the Ukraine they again moved westward. Europe was then at nadir. No strong government existed west of Constantinople. No united army stood in the way.
"In 889 the Magyars overran Bessarabia and Moldavia. In 895, under their chieftain Arpad, they began their permanent conquest of Hungary. In 899,they poured over the Alps into Italy, burned Pavia and all its forty-three churches, massacred the inhabitants, and for an entire year ravaged the peninsula.
"They conquered Pannonia, raided Bavaria (900--7), devastated Carinthia (901), took Moravia (906), plundered Saxony, Thuringia, Swabia (913), southern Germany, and Alsace (917), and overwhelmed the Germans on the Lech, a tributary of the Danube (914).
"All Europe trembled and prayed, for these invaders were still pagan, and all Christendom seemed doomed.
"But in 933 the Magyars were defeated at Botha and their advance was stayed. In 943 they again invaded Italy. In 955 they pillaged Burgundy.
"At last in that year the united armies of Germany, under Otto I, won a decisive victory on the Lechfeld, or valley of th Lech, near Augsburg.
"Europe, having in one terrible century (841-955) fought the Normans in the north, the Moslems in the south, and Magyars in the east, could breathe among its ruins."
As I read all this, I am beginning to see through the eyes of the people of the Balkans who apparently have long memories. We of the West wonder about their hatreds which go back centuries. To them it is as of yesterday.
In this section by Durant we see more and more names seen regularly in today's news -- Serbia, the Finns, the Don, the Dnieper, the Black Sea, the Ukraine, Bessarabia, Moldavia, Hungary, Bavaria, Saxony, Alsace, Burgundy. We decry the violence that we continually read about here but these victories and defeats are what made the Europe we know today.
Much to discuss here, folks.

Robby

Here is a detailed history of SERBIA AND MONTENEGRO. Read the section which interests you. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

Here is a history of the MAGYARS, the ancestors of the Hungarians.

Robby

Here is an article about VIOLENCE IN SERBIA taking place in our time.

Robby

There was a lot of confusion over the Tsunami warning up here in Oregon. First we got a warning from the Alaska station that we were under a Tsunami warning and they evactuated hundreds of poeple from the coastal towns in Seaside, etc. Than about ten minutes later the warning was downgraded to a bulletin because they had gotten different information from a station closer down the coast near California.

At any rate the "news folks" were still scurrying around trying to find out what really happened when I went to be late last night. The only thing we saw in Portland, Oregon were clear skies and no high waves off the Oregon coast from the news photos on our TVs.

The media did say that the only recorded history of tsunami in our area was a tsunami in 1964 that wiped out a small coastal town in California. I didn't catch the name of it. It was probably connected to the Alaskan earthquake that happened in 1964.

Jan I have to agree with you regarding the brutality of war. If we had a Modern day Hitler who was invading nation after nation I would have to put aside my principles however and say that war was inevitable. There is no reasoning with zealots. In saying this however I am not in agreement with using occupation as a means of forcing my ideals on a sovereign nation because I consider their political philosophy is wrong.

Carolyn

Christians and Muslims have been attacking one another since the days of King Boris. Imans and priests stand on the sidelines cheering their respective constituencies to greater violence. We saw it in Kosovo. We see it in Iraq and Afghanistan where Islam is clearly defending itself against a Christian west. The stupid agony of superstition fighting superstition is ridiculous. One prospect is to let them kill each other off. They have been trying to do that since Muhammad's time and have been unsuccessful. Aristophane's solution may be the only chance peasantry has to survive it's gullibility.

Any comments about Durant's statements and the subsequent links regarding the Balkans?

Robby

Bulgaria may not have attracted the travelers from the West because It had always seemed so remote. It certainly has a rich history and located where it is, it seems to merge the East (Turkey) and the West (the rest of the Balkans) cultures easily. I noticed in Eloise's monastery pictures the various architectural details of the Byzantine period with the Greek_ arches and gentle lines for many of the buildings.

I recall hearing always that Bulgaria was very poor. In the early twentieth century very little to no attention was given in school - either in geography classes or in history of Bulgaria's contributions to civilization. It is possible that from the perspective of our primarily English orientation to history and geography that Bulgaria was slighted and even ignored except for a passing reference.

Our educational systems in grade and high school had these limitations built in, I think, with no intention of minimizing the importance of the country. It was from ignorance, mostly.

It appears from the given links here that Bulgaria would be a most fascinating place to visit.

Hello, ROBBY, yes, I hav a quick comment regarding the last italicized section of Durant's volume.

With his usual (sometimes exhausting) thoroughness Durant gives us the chronological order in which the various regions were conquered and/or plundered by the Magyars.

But one should consult a map to see how widely spaced they are geographically, and I quote

"...Pannonia, Bavaria, Korinthia, Moravia, Saxony, Thuringia, Swabia, Southern Germany (!), Alsace ..."

Bavaria and Swabia were (and are) part of Southern Germany.
BTW, the river Lech flows through Munich, like the Charles River through Boston and the Potomoac through Washington.

It's always good for the soul to check in here. Thank you.

I feel I am sadly ignorant about any part of the world that is not directly in the European tradition.It is Durant's strength that, writing at a time when, in the US, history meant Greece, Rome, Europe, England, and the US, he consistantly sees that all people have history.

Here is an EXCELLENT MAP OF EUROPE. Allow time for downloading and then take your time is slowly perusing each nation and its relation geographically to the others. Note where Bulgaria is in the overall map of Europe. I can see where it might be more Oriental than Occidental.

Robby

Yes: I am learning more here than I have ever learned about this region. I have more to read, but a word, "Moravia" part of the Czech Republic now, caught my eye, and I thought I would mention that I have a recipe for a delicious and light Moravian Christmas cookie. It looks festive and if it is all right I would like to post the recipe here.

so now I know that our friend Jan lives at about 25 degrees EAST longetude and 60 degrees north latitude-- in Helsinki . . in case I ever want to do his chart. . . just kidding.

I have a friend who thinks in astrological terms and that's what we use when discribing people we know. . .

Here in California public schools we learned only about our own country and even then not in detail. This is very interesting for me. . . . Claire . ,

I searched the map for the name of a country that I can not remember.

While stationed in Germany in early 1970s, my husband (back then) was frequently gone on flights, so I went to work: Civil Service. There was one middle aged gentleman that sat at a desk near mine in the office. He seemed to have a different accent from the other civilians, mostly Germans. He rarely spoke to anyone. Neither the military men, nor civilians seem to associate with him much. He kept his head down, and worked.

In an effort to be pleasant one day, I asked him where he was from. I should never have asked. He explained very quietly, that he wasn't from anywhere. His country no longer existed. He told me the name of the land where he was born, then said that when the Russians arrived they took over and even the name of his homeland was removed.

It was not just his words. Not what he said....it was the look on his face that haunted me. An emptiness I have a hard time explaining. My shame is that although I tried to remember the name of his country, I soon forgot.

Just now I searched for it on the map Robby posted, but nothing jogged my memory. Imagine losing your homeland.

Yet for centuries, that's exactly what happened to many people in that part of the world.

Sun

MeriJo:-A Moravian recipe would certainly relate to the Balkans so long as we don't all get caught up in forgetting our subtopic here.

Robby

"The Magyars, subdued, made Europe more secure by accepting Christianity (975).
"Prince Geza feared the absorption of Hungary into the re-expanding Byzantine Empire. He chose Latin Christianity to win peace in the West and married his son Stephen to Gisela, daughter of Henry II, duke of Bavaria.
"Stephen I (997-1038) became Hungary's patron saint and greatest king. He organized the Magyars on the lines of German feudalism and accentuated the religious basis of the new society by accepting the kingdom and crown of Hungary from Pope Sylvester II (1000). Benedictine monks flocked in, built monasteries and villages, and introduced Western techniques of agriculture and industry.
"So, after a century of war, Hungary passsed from barbarism to civilization. When Queen Gisela presented a cross to a German friend it was already a masterpiece of the goldsmith's art.
"The earliest known home of the Slavs was a marshy region of Russia enclosed by Kiev, Mohilev, and Brest -Litovsk. They were of Indo-European stock and spoke languages related to German and Persian. Periodically overrun by nomad hordes, often enslaved, always oppressed and poor, they grew patient and strong through endless harships. The fertility of their women overcame the high mortality born of famine, disease, and chronic war.
"They lived in caves or mud huts, hunted, herded, fished, and tended bees, sold honey, wax, and skins, and slowly resigned themselves to settled tillage.
"Themselves hunted even into hardly accessible marshes and forests, brutally captured and callously sold, they adopted the morals of their time and bartered men for goods. Inhabiting a cold and samp terrain, they warmed themselves with strong liquor. They found Christianity preferable to Mohammedanism which forbade alcoholic drinks. Drunkenness, uncleanliness, cruelty, and a passion for pillage were their outstanding faults. Thrift, caution and imagination hovered in them between virtue and vices but also they were good-natured, hospitable, sociable, and loved games, dances, music, and song.
"The chieftains were polygamous. The poor monogamous. The women -- bought or captured for marriage -- were anomalously faithful and obedient. The patriarchal families were loosely organized in clans and these in tribes.
"The clans may have owned property in common in their early pastoral stage but the growth of agriculture -- in which different degrees of energy and ability, on diverse soils, produced unequal results -- generated private or family property.
"Frequently divided by migration and fraternal war, the Slavs developed a variety of Slavonic languages -- Polish, Wendish, Czech, and Slovak in the west -- Slovene, Serbo-Croat, and Bulgarian in the south -- Great Russian, White Russian, and Little Russian (Rutherian and Ukrainian) in the east. Nearly all of these, however, have remained intelligible to the speakers of any one of them.
"Pan-Slavian of speech and custom, along with space, resources, and a vitality born of hard conditions, rigorous selection and simple food, made the spreading power of the Slavs.
Your comments, please?

Robby

Here is a history of the various HUNGARIAN STRUGGLES to become a nation.

Robby

Here is an excellent detailed link about the SLAVS. It might pay to spend some time examining the different types of Slavs as Durant will be continuing on this topic for a while.
Anyone here of Slavic origin or have any friends of this heritage?

Robby

I can agree with this: "Pan-Slavian of speech and custom, along with space, resources, and a vitality born of hard conditions, rigorous selection and simple food, made the spreading power of the Slavs."

Moravia, now part of the Czech Republic, is irrigated by the Moldou river and Smetana's symphony by that name is haunting and melodious. I heard it for the first time in my early teens and it immediately made a home in my heart.

Last weekend we had a young couple for dinner and the man was born of Slovenian parents but raised here in Montreal. She was British born and bred. He spoke English and French fluently and he appeared no different from any young man his age. I questioned him about how his parent's life had been in Slovenia, he said that even with a superior education people in that country don't have the same standard of living as people here with the same education.

Éloïse

SERBIA in the news.

Robby

Thank you, Robby: These are a treat.

Moravian Christmas Cookies

Flour, 3 and one-half cups

Baking Powder, 1 teaspoon

Salt, one-half teaspoon

Shortening, 1 cup

Sugar, 1 cup of powdered sugar

Egg yolks, 4 well-beaten; add 2 tablspoons of heavy cream (whipping) or evaporated milk to beaten egg yolks

Vanilla, 1 and one-half teaspoons

Roll one-fourth inch thick on a lightly floured board, and cut with a star-shaped cutter. (may be other shaped cutter, of course.)

Place on a greased baking sheet.

Bake in a hot oven (400 degrees F.) 6 to 10 minutes. Makes about 5-6 dozen cookies.

When cold frost with confectioner's frosting to which 1 egg yolk has been added and a little extra confectioner's sugar, if necessary. Sprinkle at once, while frosting is still moist, with chopped, blanched and toasted almonds.

To keep fresh for several days, place flat in a waxed-paper lined box. Place waxed paper between layers of cookies. Put lid on box. (may not last very long, but if baking ahead his is a good way to keep the cookies nice.)

Confectioner's Frosting

Confectioner's sugar, sifted 2 cups

Hot water or milk, about 2 tablespoons

Vanilla or almond flavoring 1 teaspoon

To confectioner's sugar add hot water or milk gradually, until the frosting has a good spreading consistency; add flavoring.

Durant said Slavic love of alcohol was one of the reasons the Slavs chose Christianity over teetotling Islam. The reason seems trivial yet,it could have been very significant. I don't think Islam would have a chance in Ireland.

Slavic is an Indo European language family confined mostly to eastern Europe. I was at first quite surprised by the great variety of languages and dialects in this classification but on reflection I realized that the Latin group is equally diverse.

The INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE FAMILY TREE.

Robby

That language tree has always fascinated me. I'd like to know more about how scolars constructed it.

If I am not mistaken a language is built from popular expressions or slang words and then progresses upwards, not the other way around. A linguist such as Traude could shed light on the subject perhaps? Interesting to see that English is the new kid on the block in Robby's interesting link.

ROBBY, the link regarding the Hungarian Struggles passes too swiftly from medieval times to 1847.

What should be mentioned is the fact that Hungary was an important part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which came to an end after WW I, when Hungary became an autonomous nation.

That was decided by the Allies in Paris and cemented in the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

It must be noted that Czechoslovakia was created at that time, it was an artificial construct and no longer exists. Some ten years ago the twain were separated into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. They had never even spoken the same language.

Bohemia and Moravia = Böhmen and Mähren, known as the Sudetenland, were settled by Germans several centuries ago and in 1938 blithely, even triumphantly "returned to the Reich", to which they had never belonged (!). Hitler, an Austrian by birth, similarly "incorporated" Austria into the Reich. In Vienna his reception was much more muted ...

But after WW I, the fiercely proud Sudeten Germans, who stubbornly refused to become assimilated in culture and language, were treated dismissively by the Czechs. and that may well have been a reason why, in 1938, they were so eager to welcome the Nazi army. The Czechs summarily deported all of them as fast as they could in 1945, within a few hours, and with only as much as they could carry.

Many were resettled in Bavaria, are still rueful, combative and a politicall force.

Slovenia is in a different location near Istria, more toward the East between Italy and Austria. In 1919 Slovenia became part of Yugoslavia, also newly created by the Allies from different, widely separate remnants of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, without any regard to ethnic origin or languages; another artificial construct. We discussed all of that here last year in a fascinating discussion of "Paris 1919".

Forgive me for these details and for this departure. But allow me to add that Hungarian is not a Slavic language. Rather, it belongs to the Finnish-Uralic family of languages and is extemely complex and difficult to learn.

I am quite surprised by the single character of Greek. I wonder if Greek is Greek. I think I should expect that because the language has been spoken in so many geographic areas over a period of at least two and one half millennia that it would have evolved into many iterations. Traude, where are you? Help.

From what I have read, Hungarian is part of the Finnish Ugrian (Sp?) group and thus more related to Finnish than to Indo-European. It has the same agglutinant structures as Turkish.

Greek is spoken in Greece of course and by small minorities -Turkish, Bulgarian and Albanese. I was very surprised to see that even though the language has changed and simplified with the years, ancient Greek can still be understood. The alphabet of course is the same and the roots of names of course are maintained, just as they are when they were borrowed by the other languages we speak today.

Since others seem as interested as I am with the development of languages, I will share what I learned about the Indo European group which can be divided in distinct sub-groups:

The Latin languages comprising French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Occitan, Provencal French, Corsican, Italian, Swiss Romanche, Sardinian, Roumanian.

The Germanic languages comprising English, German, Dutch, Africaans, Alsacian, and the Scandinavian languages (Denmark, Norway, Island and Feroe)

The Celtic languages with Briton, Irish, Gallish and Scottish

The Slavic languages with Tchech, Slovac, Polish, Russian, Bielo-russian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Slovenian, Serbo-Croatian.

The Baltic languages - maybe nearest to the ancien Indo-European with Lettonian and Lituanien

Some isolated languages, still part of the same big family such as Albanian, Greek, Armenian and Tzigane.

The Iranian languages; Farsi, Kurdish, Balutshe (sp?), Poshtu, Tadjik.

The languages of North India with Indi-Urdu, Sindhi, Panjabi, Konkani, Oriya, Nepali, Assamais, Bengali, Marathi, Gujrati with also Singhalesi from Sri Lanka which is from the same origin although geographically isolated.

I bet many of those names are not that familiar!

This resume is from the Encyclopedia of 3.000 languages spoken in the World, by Michel Malherbe. He also wrote a very interesting encyclopedia of religions.

All that is fascinating, isn't it? With all that difference in language, it's a wonder that we get along with each other at all. Let us continue examining the Byzantine World.

Robby

The Birth of Russia

509-1054

"The Slavs were but the latst of many peoples who rejoiced in the rich soil, spacious steppes, and many navigable rivers of Russia and mourned the miasmic marshes and forbidding forests and the absence of natural barriers to hostile invasion, summer's heat, or winter's cold.
"On its least inhospitable coasts -- the western and northern fringes of the Black Sea -- the Greeks had founded a score of towns -- Olbia, Tanais, Theodosia, Panticapeum (Kerch) as early as the seventh century B.C. and had engaged in trade and war with the Scythians of the hinterland. These natives, probably of Iranian origin, imbibed some civilization from the Persians and the Greeks and even produced a philosopher -- Anacharsis (600 B.C.) -- who came to Athens and argued with Solon.
"During the second century B.C. another Iranian tribe, the Sarmarians, conquered and displaced the Scythians. Amid this turmoil the Greek colonies decayed.
"In the second century A.D. the Goths entered from the west and established the Ostrogothic kingdom. About 375 this was overthrown by the Huns.
"Thereafter, for centuries, the southern plains of Russia saw hardly any civilization but rather a succession of nomad hordes -- Bulgars, Avars, Slavs, Khazars, Magyars, Patzinaks, Cumans, and Mongols.
"The Khazars were of Turkish origin. In the seventh century they expanded through the Caucasus into south Russia, established an orderly dominion from the Dnieper to the Caspian Sea, and built a capital, Itil, at a mouth of the Volga near the present Astrakhan.
"Their kings and upper classes accepted the Jewish religion. Hemmed in between a Moslem and a Christian empire, they probably preferred to displease both equally rather than one dangerously. At the same time they gave full freedom to the varied creeds of the people. Seven courts administered justice -- two for Moslems, two for Christians, two for Jews, one for heathens. An appeal was allowed from the last five to the Moslem courts, whose administration of justice was at that time considered best.
"Encouraged by the enlightened policy, merchants of various faiths gathered in the Khazar towns. A lively trade developed there between the Baltic and the Caspian Seas and Itil in the eighth century was one of the great commercial cities of the world.
"In the ninth century Khazaria was overrun by Turkish nomads. The government could no longer protect its trade channels from brigandage and piracy.
"In the tenth century the Khazar kingdom melted away into the ethnic chaos from which it taken form.
"Into that motley multitude of south and central Russia in the sixth century came a migration of Slavic tribes from the Carpathian Mountains.
"They settled the valleys of the Dnieper and the Don and reached out more thinly to Lake Ilmen in the north. For centuries they multiplied, year by year, clearing the forests, draining the swamps, eliminating wild beasts, creating the Ukraine. They spread over the plains in a movement of human fertility rivaled only by the Hindus and the Chinest.
"All through known history they have been on the march -- into the Caucasus and Turkestan, into the Urals and Siberia.
"This process of colonization goes on today and the Slav ocean every year enters new ethnic bays."
As Durant says, it was a "motley multitude" until the Slavs entered the picture and "created" the Ukraine -- a name which is in today's headlines. Let us examine that geographical area for a while.

Robby

This COMBINATION OF THREE MAPS shows the location of the Ukraine in the European-Asiatic land mass, the location of the Ukraine in Europe itself and its proximity to Hungary, and a map of the Ukraine itself (note the location of Karch down in the Crimean peninsula).
Allow time for downloading. On the map of the Ukraine you are able to click onto "Russia," "Balarus," "Poland" and other places that may interest you. As you do, notice the accompanying changes in the maps of Europe and the World.

Robby

Here is a map of the BLACK SEA. I had no idea that its coast touched six nations.

Robby

http://www.khazaria.com/

New discoveries about the Khazars.

For those of us who like to do puzzles, here is an interactive MAP OF UKRAINE

Here is a DIFFERENT MAP of the Black Sea.

Robby

That is a wonderful amazing link, Eloise! Thank you.

Robby

Thank you, Bubble. The Khazaria News! I wonder how many Americans subscribe to it, much less have ever heard of it (or the Khazars for that matter). We Americans know very little of that part of the world and, even worse, don't much care.

Robby

That was fun Eloise! My eye for puzzles helped much more than my knowledge of that region! The only familar shape was Crimea.

This NY TIMES ARTICLE may in general be of interest to some of you but I would like everyone to please take note of the paragraph which begins "It's true there was a great mood . . .".

Robby

Does it mean we are passé and in an odd minority because we are interested in reading and developping SoC?

I think so, Bubble. We are an odd lot here. People in general, are not interested in history. That is a subject one studied in school because it was an assigned topic but not something one reads (if one reads) for general interest. Baseball is a more fitting topic of interest for the great majority and television has subverted our interest in reading.

reminds me of the format that was common in the old SATURDAY REVIEW OF LITERATURE to which my folks subscribed and I imagine read. sometimes I did too. first they would tell you that the item they were reviewing was worth your time and then they would end by telling you it wasn't. There never seemed to be a fixed position on the reviewers part. I found the article very confusing as well. . . . Claire

I noticed places on the maps like Sevastopol and Yalta. The 600 rode into the guns of Sevastopol,I think. How did the British get involved in the Crimea? Also Yalta is noteworthy because Churchill and Roosevelt met with Stalin here during the war. It was picked because Stalin refused to travel any farther. Roosevelt was sick at the time and gave Stalin too much for our good. Most of our life was taken up trying to rectify the errors of that meeting.

In March, 1853, Russia invaded Turkey. Britain and France, concerned about the growing power of Russia, went to Turkey's aid. This conflict became known as the Crimean War. Soon after British soldiers arrived in Turkey, they began going down with cholera and malaria. Within a few weeks an estimated 8,000 men were suffering from these two diseases.

This is where Florence Nightingale created the school of nurses to take of the sick and the wounded.

Thank you Bubble for jogging my memory I read so much in French novels about "la guerre de Crimée" but didn't quite get what that war was all about. I remember about the Yalta meeting with Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt. I am always surprised to find how much my 14 yr old granddaughter know about history and she uses the web for her research papers.

Here is an OVERVIEW of the Crimean War. Please note the phrase "The war began as a quarrel between Russian Orthodox monks and French Catholics over who had precedence at the holy places in Jerusalem and Nazareth." Here we go again!
Thank goodness religion has nothing to do with our present armed conflict.

Robby

Here are details about the YALTA CONFERENCE.

Robby

Here is a MAP of Crimea showing the location of Yalta. If you click onto the photo you will get a series of beautiful photos of Crimea with their attached subheadings explaining clearly what you are looking at.

Robby

ROBBY: when I clicked on the picture of Yalta, my computer crashed. I hope it was just a coincidence.

Joan:-Anything can happen in this discussion group.

Robby

Here is a map of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION which is not, of course, the Soviet Union.

Robby

Sorry for being late, but because of the Californian earth quakes, I haven't read the posts since Sunday, and was trying to make up for it in a hurry. However, I would like to say a couple of things about Hungary and Hungarian language.

I was born and educated in Hungary. I cannot agree with the statement that Magyars are now called Hungarians. In Hungary, the country is still called "Magyarorszag, and the language, Magyar. During the Roman times, it was called "Pannonia. Where the word Hungary is coming from, I don't have the faintest idea. Ugrian???

As to the Finno-Ugrian language, I also have something to say. I had a Finnish friend, a professional linguist. Although I am only an amateur in linguistics, we were trying for a long time to figure out the relationship between the two languages. Except for 4 or 5 words, we couldn't find any more, but those words are pretty much the same in Estonian. As to grammar, we couldn't find anything at all in common. I think that the Finno-Ugrian theory was invented by patriotic Hungarians--sorry, Magyars, to avoid certain unpleasant associations.

I think we should invite Gregory, any Iman the Muslims choose, Robertson and Falwell, and any Davidian representative. Put them in a cage and let them go at it. Let's settle this once for all time. Winner take all. When it's over we all become Jews or Catholics or Muslims or Evangelicals with one religion and one God for all. This eternal squabbling over nothing is ridiculous. We never seem to grow up.

In the Sydney Morning Herald a few days ago I read about the recent discovery of a civilization 2000 years older than the Pyramids under Germany, Austria and Slovakia. I tried to post a link here, but I couldn't get it to work.

In reading all the posts and links I can see that all the furor in the past in this part of the world was for a comparatively small amount of land for one person or family. Compounding the animosity was the great variety of language - one can almost here the arguments over pronunciation and meanings. - And one group speaking one language as being superior to another group with a different language. Then whoever won the battles and conquered the territory would after a few years be in the reverse position.

In reading about the religions, it seems that the Orthodox and the Latin rites differed in ways typical perhaps of their regions. The Romans were imperial and it is no wonder to see that the Papacy had an air of imperialism. The Orthodox entertained the idea of democracy that long ago, an influence of the Greek notion of government, I think. Rome had at one time been a republic, but the nature of the personalities were influenced by a belief that imperialism would be best in that still fairly undeveloped part of Europe.

I have felt a warm affinity to the eastern European and Asian peoples we have read about here as I read about all their accomplishments and contributions to art, architecture, textiles, governmental organization and family structures to name just a few. My Goodness, one wishes that this knowledge had been better presented in our days in school instead of jumping straight to western Europe after Caesar - even though the latter had much of the same to contribute. But, I think we missed very much.

I congratulate the many "ordinary people" who kept the arts thriving, the languages as intact as possible, the land tilled, saved artifacts, built anew after battles and repaired the buildings, but for them more would have been lost than already has been.

Nice to hear from you, Hegeso and thanks for helping us to see from the perspective of your family origin. Please don't wait so long for your next posting.

Robby

Durant continues with "The Birth of Russia."
"Early in the ninth century an apparently negligible attack came upon Slavdom from the northwest.
"The Scandinavian Vikings could spare men and energy from their assaults upon Scotland, Iceland, Ireland, England, Germany, France and Spain to send into northern Russia bands of one or two hundred men to prey upon the communities of Balts, Finns, and Slavs and then return with their booty. To protect their robberies with law and order, these Vacringjar or Varangians ('followers' - of a chieftain) established fortified posts on their routes and gradually they settled down as a ruling Scandinavian minority of armed merchants among a subject peasantry.
" Some towns hired them as guardians of social order and security. Apparently the guardians converted their wages into tribute and became the masters of their employers.
"By the middle of the ninth century they governed Novgorod ('new fort') and had estended their rule as far south as Kiev. The routes and settlements they controlled were loosely bound into a commercial and political empire called Ros or Rus, a term of much disputed derivation.
"The great rivers that traversed the land connected -- through canals and short overland hauls -- the Baltic and Black Sea and invited a southward expansion of Varangian trade and power. Soon these fearless merchant warriors were selling their goods or services in Constantinople itself.
"Conversely, as commerce grew more regular on the Dnieper, the Volkhov, and the Western Dvina, Moslem merchants came up from Baghdad and Byzantium and traded spices, wines, silks, and gems for furs, amber, honey, wax, and slaves. Hence the great number of Islamic and Byzantine coins found along these rivers and even in Scandinavia.
"As Moslem control of the eastern Mediterranean blocked the flow of European products through French and Italian outlets to Levantine ports, Marseille, Genoa, and Pisa declined in the ninth and tenth centuries while in Russia towns like Novgorod, Smolensk, Chernigov, Kief, and Rostov flourished through Scandinavian, Slavic, Moslem, and Byzantine trade."
This, to me, is fascinating. I know very little about the history of that part of the world probably, as indicated by others here, because it wasn't taught in school. We knew that the Vikings "may have" touched North America but knew nothing about their forages into what was later Russia or all the way to Constantinople.
So, if I have this straight, they conquer a town, becoming its ruling minority ("might makes right"), are hired by townspeople as guardians (the conquered people know what side their bread is buttered on), the Scandinavians act as if the wage is actually a tribute, and de facto become the masters. If I say it is so, it is so, so long as I have a weapon in my hand.
Throughout all this the north becomes stronger while the south weakens. Am I correct about all this?

Robby

Here is an excellent article (containing many links) about the VARANGIANS.

Robby

Here is an article about NOVGOROD which Durant tells us was governed for a time by the Scandinavians.

Robby

Here is an excellent link to the VIKINGS. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

For those of you here who don't know it, the name Iadeluca is the paternal side of me. The other half is Swedish. Please keep that in mind when anyone tries to get out of line.

Robby

There was a PBS special about the Vikings some time ago, that went into their foreys into Russia. What I particularly remember is how they used the system of rivers. They would "conquer" a town and later, send boats down the river to the next town. Of course, once they had the towns under control, they had their trade routes all set up.

Robby: I always knew we should be scared of you!!

If you don't know this delightful web site, you should

THE VIKING ANSWER LADY

This NY Times article tells us about one aspect of NORWAY.

Robby

Robby, it would be interesting if there is a place on earth where people go with their maternal surname. Does someone know?

Norway sounds a delight, but way to cold for me. I see how the Scandinavians can bathe in our sea in winter and complain it is too warm. I have heard how honest and trusty they are. I wish it could be more general.

That's a wonderful link, Joan. Thank you!

Robby

Justin: What would happen to those who profess to NO religion? Where would they go in your cage?

Bubble:

In the sixties, my family and I hosted a boy from Ecuador. He placed his father's surname after his given name and at the end he placed his mother's surname. He went by his father's surname, here, however.

I was going to give some links regarding Vikings but the Viking Answer Lady link given by Joan K is so utterly and fantastically complete that you will certainly find there anything you want to know.

Robby

re that Swedish part of you. A friend of mine who is Swedish tells me that the men are very antisocial and cold. I think we all do better with your Italian side . . .A Swede wouldn't bother with us, much less host this discussion for so long. Most of the worlds operas are in Italian. I don't know of any Swedish ones . And as far as the arts and architecture goes the good stuff is in Italy. It takes real passion for all of that to happen. The Swedish women are known for that, but not the men. . .

IS OUR DISCUSSION LEADER IS A MODERN VIKING?

I am cooking for company otherwise I would spend some time browsing in the Viking link and later it will be too late as we are moving likety split.

Likety Split? See what you started MaryJo with your ancient colloquialisms. We'll never get rid of that.It's too whimsical. We'll have it just as we have "lurkers" as an acceptable term in our lexicon.

More about LICKETY SPLIT than you want to know.

Robby

Scrawler: My first objective is to get all the God people to agree on one and the same God.Next,we can work on the God/No God thing. If we can reach the first objective we will have eliminated many of the causes of war. I don't think the God/no God issue has produced many wars. The no God people are out numbered about 5 to 1. They won't give us any trouble. Trevor's great cause remains a problem however. It is the one cause-plunder, that drove the Vikings up the rivers into Russia.

Nothing in French sounds that good to express speed, I hope you don't mind if I use it now and then Justin because we all repeat ourselves at one time or another anyway.

This is more than most people will want to read but it discusses the reasoning behind PLUNDER (LEGAL AND ILLEGAL).

Robby

Eloise:-I thought you didn't have time for SofC because you are "cooking for company."

Robby

Like the R.R. explanation for "likety" or "likety click". Trains were considered fast in the 1840's and the click of the rail joints could have led to "clickety click" and thence to "likety". The rail joint is a split which could give us "likety split."

Well my computer is just a few feet away from my kitchen stove and I am ready now with Osso Bucco as a main course and the favorite Lemon Loaf with fresh strawberries and cream. All I need now is company to arrive. In the meantime, there is always S of C, why waste time?

Eloise is setting a good example. I hope all participants here are as conscientious.

Robby

but what the heck..the devil *(Robby) made me do it.Here's a particular saying that my mid western friend uses all the time but not in relation to spead.

"hodamyouall I swear"

no that is not a typo. . . the hodamyouall.

Claire

Tonight and tomorrow morning (Sunday ET) we will finish The Birth of Russia. Tomorrow evening we will start The Decline of the West. The coming 24 hours are for your comments about the northern nations and/or tribes.

Robby

Justin I must repectfully question your logic here. God/No God sugggests a choice between only two variables and is the simplest place to start. Our confusion lies in the GOD or believer aspect of the discussion there are so many variables within that. . . .Claire

Actually we are NOT going to work on the God/No God thing. We are going to follow where Durant is at the moment which is preparing to examine The Decline of the West.
Remember my Viking heritage?

Robby

are we still in the age of faith/no faith? or were we ever there. I didn't get in on the beginning so maybe Durant did discuss "no faith"? Now as to that Viking ancestry. My friend Gerda from Germany says her father was one and she has great cheekbones platinum blonde natural hair an huge ice blue eyes. . tall and large boned she is probably just like those women except for the ones with red hair and hazel eyes. You, on the other hand are dark . . . on with Durant. . . Claire

Robby:

Re the "north getting stronger and the south getting weaker", I have the thought that in the south there was a hunkering down and an aim to self-protection and protecting what was around after the havoc of the barbarians sweeping down into Italy and across into the western parts of Europe. The monks began to copy old writings and scriptures, and people began to till the soil and slowly build up the villages around the castles. I think that whatever intellectual growth was going on it was slow and tedious. There were sporadic raids by different lords, there were plagues, there were woefully wild notions of religion and subsequent behavior, and attempts to establish a central empire, Pepin, Charlemagne. Some magnificent architecture developed in the west duing this time, and art and map-making as bold sailors and explorers attempted to overcome superstition and sail beyond the Straits of Gibraltar. The activity was different.

In the East there was a regular access by the people to the wonderful arts, schools, science, and the goods that were coming from the East. They appeared to be strong, but in reality, the constant strife did hold them back and each victory was hard-fought.

One can see that all of Europe was really a beehive of progressive activity - some of it unencumbered by war and strife and some of it, not.

I had no idea that Scandinavian influence had reached so far east and south into Russia. What a rich heritage all of Europe has given the world!

We should agitate for its inclusion in the curricula of today!

This TIMELINE shows some of the effects that Scandinavia had on Europe.

Robby

Let us follow Durant as he continues with the Birth of Russia.
"The Ancient Chronicle of Russia (twelfth century) gave personality to this Scandinavian infiltration by its tale of 'three princes.'
"The Finnish and Slavic population of Novgorod and its vicinity, having driven out their Varangian overlords, fell to so much quarreling among themselves that they invited the Varangians to send them a ruler or general (862). Three brothers came, says the story -- Rurik, Sineus, and Truvor -- and established the Russian state.
"The story may be true, despite latter-day skepticism. Or it may be a patriotic gloss on a Scandinavian conquest of Novgorod.
"The Chronicle further relates that Rurik sent two of his aides, Askold and Dir, to take Constantinople. These Vikings stopped enroute to capture Kiev, and then declared themselves independent of both Rurik and the Khazars.
"In 860 Kiev was strong enough to send a fleet of 100 vessels to attack Constantinople. The expedition failed but Kiev remained the commercial and political focus of Russia. It gathered under its power an extensive hinterland.
"Its earliest rulers -- Askold, Oleg, and Igor -- rather than Rurik at Novgorod, might justly be called the founders of the Russian state. Oleg, Igor and the able Princess Olga (Igor's widow) and her warrior son Sviatoslav (962-72) widened the Kievan realm until it embraced nearly all the eastern Slavonic tribes and the towns of Polotsk, Smolesnsk, Cherigov, and Rostov.
"Between 860 and 1043 the young principality made six attempts to take Constantinople. So old is the Russian drive to the Bosporus, the Russian hunger for secure access to the Mediterranean."
I assume that the Mediterranean never freezes.

Robby

What is the origin of the FINNS?

Robby

Here is a HISTORY OF FINLAND.

Robby

The Viking raids began in the Late Eighth and early Ninth Century. The attack on Lindesfarm Monastery was probably around 800 CE.The Beowulf translations are from this period although the story is set in an earlier period. The Sutton Hoo discoveries are also from this period. As I recall Oso was one of the Norse Gods in this period. He was probably named for Oso Bucco.

My father is English and had red hair and hazel eyes as I did before I began to go grey and changed my hair color to bottle blonde. The Vikings spent a lot of time plundering and looting in Old Britain and my fathers family came from Cornwall by the sea so I think I could safely say I have Viking colouring with the bone structure ( small) of some other race. Weren't the Britons small?

The red hair continues down the line but getting less frequent. The two red haired girls in my family did not have redheads but one of the brunette siblings had one red head. We were gobsmacked as my sister and I both thought we must end up with a redhead.

Carolyn

" Gobsmacked" That's a new one for me. Love it.

Like it Justin? You can borrow it. Its in common usage down here.

Carolyn

That History of Finland was most interesting. Thanks!

Was the Mediterranean ever cold? I think it was the craddle of civilizations because of its mild climate. It could be the "puddle" left after the big Flood since the ark is said to have landed no far from it between Turkey and Russia.

was interesting to me especially the DNA Mitachondria only from the female as the male contribution died quickly as the distinguishing feature in tracing ancestry . And the relationship of TEETH large and small to the racial makeup

My husband a Nordic type blonde blue eyes but small bones has really big teeth. Mine are small. My son who looks like his dad has small teeth and I haven't noticed my daughters so they must be small too. I wonder which dominates. . . . Claire

"With Vladimir (972-1015), fifth 'Grand Duke of Kiev,' Rus, as the new principality called itself, became Christian (989).
"Vladimir married the sister of the Emperor Basil II, and thereafter, until 1917, Russia, in religion, alphabet, coinage, and art was a daughter of Byzantium.
"Greek priests explained to Vladimir the divine origin and right of kings and the usefulness of this doctrine in promoting social order and monarchical stability. Under Vladimir's son Yaroslav (1036-54), the Kievan state reached its zenith.
"Its authority was loosely acknowledged and taxes were received by it, from Lake Ladoga and the Baltic to the Caspian, the Caucasus, and the Black Sea.
"The Scandinavian invaders were absorbed and Slav blood and speech prevailed.
"Social organization was frankly aristocratic. The prince entrusted administration and defense to a higher nobility of boyars and a lesser nobility of dietski or otroki -- pages or retainers. Below these came the merchants, the townspeople, the semiservile peasantry and the slaves.
"A code of laws -- Russkaya Pravda, or Russian Right -- sanctioned private revenge, the judicial duel, and the compurgative oath, but established trial by a jury of twelve citizens. Vladimir founded a school for boys at Kiev, Yaroslav another at Novgorod.
"Kiev, the meeting point of boats from the Volkhov, the Dvina, and the lower Dnieper, took toll of all passing merchandise. Soon it was rich enough to build 400 churches and a great cathedral -- another St. Sophia -- in the Byzantine style. Greek artists were imported to decorate these buildings with mosaics, frescoes, and other Byzantine ornaments. Greek music entered to prepare for the triumphs of Russian choral song.
"Slowly Russia lifted outself out of its dirt and dust, built palaces for its princes, raised cupolas above huts of mud, and out of the patient strength of its people reared little isles of civilization in a still barbarous sea."
I knew that both Greece and Russia were Orthodox but had no idea of the Greek influence in Russia, with the Russian Emperor being influenced by Greek priests.

Robby

This is an excellent article about RUSSIAN SOCIETY, INSTITUTIONS, RELIGION AND CULTURE.

Robby

This is an excellent article about the RUSSIAN RELIGION. At the end is a friendly little quiz.

Robby

Did you know that a RUSSIAN NOBILITY BALL still regularly takes place?

Robby

HAPPY FATHERS DAY TO ALL FATHERS, GRAND FATHERS AND GREAT GRAND FATHERS

We are so lucky to have you, there are so few of you out there. Stay well and active.

Éloïse

The Vikings made it all the way to the Greek Ionian Islands which explains the blue-eyed/blond Greeks in my family.

Robby #669, if you had Greek orthodox and Russian orthodox churches in town, you would see the resemblance of the icons, ornaments and probably the service as well. They can be found side by side in Jerusalem.

It has always been interesting to read in the Russian literature how the poor mujiks lived side by side with the aristocracy in Russia especially under the tsars and the huge difference in life between them.

Information about RUSSIAN SERFS.

Robby

My sister went to the Finnish embassy last year to see a wonderful exhibit of Finnish glass work. Walking there, I saw it was near the Norwegian Embassy, and said something about Scandinavians sticking together. My sister said that I should never refer to Finns as Scandinavian: that would make them mad. JAN are you there? Do you know about this.

So I was surprised to see a Swedish enclave in Finland.

Click HERE for Swedish-Finnish relations.

Robby

I am a little surprised that Boris Yeltsin restricted the number of religious groups when the government's objective is clearly one of limiting religious influence in Government. The more groups the greater the chance they will fight among themselves. The fewer the number of groups the greater the chance they will act in concert against the government. Does anyone understand Yeltsin's rationale?

Eloise: Your cheerful applause for Fathers, Grandfathers, and Great Grandfathers is most appreciated. We fathers, grandfathers,and great grandfathers thank you and hope as you do that we all remain in the good fight for many more rounds..

The Decline of the West

566-1066

"While Islam was on the march, and Byzantium was recovering from seemingly fatal blows, Europe fought its way up through the "Dark Ages."
"This is a loose term which any man may define to his prejudice. We shall arbitarily confine it to non-Byzantine Europe between the death of Boethius in 524 and the birth of Abelard in 1079. Byzantine civilization continued to flourish during this period despite severe losses of territory and prestige.
"But Western Europe in the sixth century was a chaos of conquest, disintegration, and rebarbarization. Much of the classic culture survived for the most part silent and hidden in a few monasteries and families. But the physical and psychological foundations of social order had been so disturbed that centuries would be needed to restore them.
"Love of letters, devotion to art, the unity and continuity of culture, the cross-fertilization of communicating minds, fell before the convulsions of war, the perils of transport, the economies of poverty, the rise of vernaculars, the disappearance of Latin from the East and of Greek from West.
"In the ninth and tenth centuries the Moslem control of the Mediterranean, the raiding of European coasts and towns by Normans, Magyars, and Saracens accelerated this localism of life and defense, this primitivism of thought and speech.
"Germany and Eastern Europe were a maelstrom of migrations, Scandinavia was a pirates' lair, Britain was overrun by Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Danes -- Gaul by Franks, Normans, Burgundians, and Goths. Spain was torn betwen Visigoths and Moors.
"Italy had been shattered by the long war between the Goths and Byzantium and the land that had given order to half the world suffered for five centuris a disintegration of morals, economny, and government."
Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading to see the direction in which we are going.

Robby

Before we move on........

How would Durant define the culture in our time, or the religious fervor/disintegration (take your pick)?

Would he find the physical and psychological foundations of OUR social order to be so disturbed that centuries would be needed to restore them?

Would he think there was a disintegration of morals? How would he describe us, our economy, and the government in our time?

Sun

I have kept out of conversations in this group because my religious opinions are evidently unacceptable under current rules and the consistantly idiotic basis for most religions is offensive to me, especially since it results in the most horrendous human behavior. Therefor this is a one-time break in my silence - at least until I can make further neutral submissions.

As a resident of Helsinki I have been aware if the love-hate relationship between Finns and Swedes for some time. There are several active factors. For many years Finand was a colony of Sweden and Finnish culture and language was suppressed by Sweden.

One of the legacies of this is that many of the more wealthy families in the country have Swedish ancestry and portions of the country still use Swedish as the common language. Most signage in Finland is in both Swedish and Finnish and both languages are taught in the school system. There is still a vague sense of the Swedish speaking population being somewhat snobbish about the rest of the Finnish population somewhat similar to the feelings that Americans have about people speaking with a British accent to gain a class superiority. When Russia took over Finland from Sweden the Finns gains a more liberal attitude from their rulers and Finland gained their own parliament and local government. And Finnish culture was permitted to grow stronger. The first books printed in Finnish happened in this era when plays and poetry and folklore were formally expressed in print.

Right after the Russian revolution there was a liberal atmosphere in Russia and the Finnish appeal for independance was granted which resulted in a terrible civil war in Finland between the "reds" and the "whites" and many were killed and the "whites" under General Männerheim gained control and many "reds" fled the country, some to the USA.

During WWII the Russians tried to take Finland back in the Winter War.An American playwrite, Robert Sherwood, had his play "There Shall Be No Night" produced on Broadway describing the war. Finland could find no ally except Nazi Germany to help them and before the Nazi-Russian alliance early in WWII the Germans helped the Finns fight the Russians. The Finns proved themselved tough opponents and attacked across Lake Ladoga to Russia which is why, after WWII the Russians demanded and and got a large hunk of Eastern Finland as reparation and put the lake under Russian rule.

Finland was largely an agricultural country immediately after WWII. The departing Germans had administered a scorched earth policy and destroyed large sections of the country. And the Russians demanded large monetary reparations from Finland in addition to acquiring a hunk of Eastern Finland including the City of Viipuri (Viborg) which was a large cultural center. My wife's family was forced to emigrate from Viipuri and the Swedes donated housing to Finland to help the refugees. My father-in-law acquired two of the small wooden houses for his family.

See: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warfin2.html

By forcing reparations on the Finns the Russians forced industrial development on the country which was a great hardship but lead to the prominence of Finnish technology today, which was an ironic result.

During the bad years many Finns emigrated to Sweden for work and there are still large Finnish enclaves in Sweden where the Finnish language is spoken and taught.

There is still some resentment against the Swedes who, in WWII, permitted the Nazis to pass through Sweden to conquer Norway without warning the Norwegians.

Jan: Thank you for that explanation. I remember the Russians and the Finns having at it. I have images in my memory banks of Finnish ski soldiers in white having success against the Russians. But there was little else of that war in my memory until you put it all in context.

I was a kid who read the papers in the late thirties and early forties but I missed things like the Swedes allowing the Nazis access to Norway. Perhaps, it was not reported by the American press. I do however, remember Chruchill's aborted effort to land troops in Norway. The Norwegians must be very angry with the Swedes and probably still harbor animosity for that policy.

I remember vaguely a very good documentary film that was shown to us in High School about a Norse (?) facility for "heavy water" which was not to fall in Germans' hands, and the spying and battling to avoid that. Unfortunately I don't remember enough to research it, but it made a strong impression at the time for the courage of a handful of men, in harsh winter and against terrible odds.

http://www.answers.com/topic/norwegian-heavy-water-sabotage

Thank you, Jan, for that excellent detailed explanation of Finland's relations with Sweden, Russia, etc. Like Justin, I was also a steady reader of the news at the ttime and was an adult during the war years but did not see the actions you described on our radio or in the newspapers. There was no TV in that period. Thank you also for that link to "heavy water." That was in the news.
What reactions do you folks have to Durant's remarks concerning The Decline of the West?"

Robby

Durant spoke of Britain being overrun by the tribe of ANGLES.

Robby

Here is some information about the SAXONS. How often we use the term Anglo-Saxon without knowing anything of its derivation.

Robby

Durant also spoke of Britain being overrun by the JUTES. Most of us have heard of the Jutland peninsula.

Robby

And here are the FRANKS which Durant tells us spread into Gaul and gave France its name.

Robby

"During that long darkness Charlemagne, Alfred, and Otto I gave intervals of order and stimulus to France, England, and Germany. Erigena resurrected philosophy, Alcuin and others restored education. Gerbert importd Moslem science into Christendom. Leo IX and Gregory VII reformed and strengthened the Church. Architecture developed the Romanesque style and Europe began in the eleventh century its slow ascent to the twelfth and thirteenth, the greatest of medieval centuries."

Robby

L abataille de l'eau lourde. Thanks Jan!

Here we call Anglo-Saxons indifferently whoever speaks English - even Canadians and Americans.

MARCIE posted the following and said to spread the word:

Alert

There has been some email sent out by mischief makers signed "SeniorNet support team" that contains a virus. The email mentions updating your password or other information. PLEASE DO NOT DOWNLOAD THE ATTACHMENT. The mail is NOT from SeniorNet.

BUBBLE: "Here we call Anglo-Saxons indifferently whoever speaks English - even Canadians and Americans".

I know! It was very startling to Jews who migrated to Israel from English-speaking countries to find that by doing so, they had become Anglo-Saxons.

Durant gave a good picture of what was happening in the West, I think. It's a wonder that the population did not diminish or disappear into other ethnicities more than it did. The pace was slow for the west at that time but it did move along in spite of illness and revolts.

That time is a tribute to the human spirit. It has been said that the "Dark Ages" were not really, "dark".

Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends.We have watched civilization advance from the days of Sumerian life, through the Persian, Greek, and Roman civilizations to arrive at a moment in Europe when civilization retrogressed.

Chaos and insecurity returned to dominate ones time. When one must move every day there is no need for shelter, no time for farming.When one must defend constantly against an invading force there is little time for philosophy.

It was during this time of chaos that the Church strengthened it's hold on the people, developed it's internal structure, tried to fill the void left by government with an imperialist policy. Society decentralized. Local control and defense encouraged the growth of warlords and the feudal system.

The Dark Ages were dark, not in the sense of Moses but in the requisites for civilization. It's interesting that Durant ends the period of Darkness with the birth of Abelard. If Abelard had not backed down when Bernard sought to trap him in the fire of the stake the Church might have been more realistic in it's approach to society.

is largely dependent upon the gulf stream

Claire

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."
Thank you for pulling that quote of Durant out of the Heading, Justin. It is relevant here. I recommend that each of us, and especially new participants, read the entire Heading at regular intervals. It helps to remind us why we are here.

Robby

Following the GREEN quotes in the Heading, we are now entering Italy from 566 to 1095.

The Lombards

568-774

"Three years after the death of Justinian, Byzantine rule was extinguished in northern Italy by the Lombard invasion.
"Paul, the Deacon, who was one of them, thought that the Lombards or Longobardi owed their name to their long beards. They themselves believed that their original home had been Scandinavia and so Dante, their descendant, apostrophized them.
"We find them on the lower Elbe in the first century, on the Danube in the sixth, used by Narses in his Italian campaign of 552, sent back to Pannonia after his victory, but never forgetting the fruitful loveliness of northern Italy.
"In 568, pressed on north and east by Avars, 130,000 Lombards -- men, women, children, and baggage -- moved laboriously across the Alps into 'Lombardy,' the lush plains of the Po. Narses, who might have stopped them, had been deposed and disgraced a year before.
"Byzantium was busy with Avars and Persians. Italy itself, exhausted by the Gothic War, had no stomach for fighting, no money to pay for vicarious heroism. By 573 the Lombards held Verona, Milan, Florence, and Pavia -- which became their capital.
"In 601, they captured Padua, in 603 Cremona and Mantua, in 640 Genoa. Their mightiest king, Liutprand (712-44), took Ravenna in eastern Italy, Spoleto in the center, Benevento in the south, and aspired to unite all Italy under his rule.
"Pope Gregory III cold not allow the papacy to become a Lombard bishopric. He called in the unsubdued Venetians, who retook Ravenna for Byzantium. Liutprand had to content himself with giving northern and central italy the best government they had had since Theodoric the Goth.
"Like Theodoric he could not read."
Robby

History of the LOMBARDS.

Robby

Here is a map of LOMBARDY in Italy. Until I looked at the map I didn't know this region was so close to Switzerland and Austria.

Robby

Here is an EXCELLENT HISTORY OF LOMBARDY.

Robby

Here are some photos taken in MILAN showing, among other items, La Scala Opera and the world's second largest church. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

ROBBY: I see no green items in the heading. Should I?

Joan:-Look for the quote which says: "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." Directly below that you will see the word "Italy." Under that are four GREEN quotes. That tells us where we are in Durant's book. Right now we are reading about the Lombards. After that are the Normans, etc. etc.

Robby

Got it. I was looking for four lines.

In reading about the "36 dukes" who at one time ruled in various places in Italy, I was reminded of what my mother had said once when I asked her about Italian history. "Oh Mary! Poor Italy ! It was overrun by so many different peoples that we Italians are all mixed up." This was all in Italian, of course. It is easy for me to visualize now that I have read as much as I have here of the many different ethnicities.

My grandmother had ten children, the two oldest were brunette, brown-eyes then there were blondes, with rosy skin, light eyes, then, again, dark hair, but with fair skin, blue eyes, and my very brunette aunt with dark eyes, olive skin, and then came my Uncle Aladino, a redhead with freckles and my mother, the youngest, so fair, with very blonde hair and grey eyes that she could not be in the sunshine or she would burn. She was often asked if she were Swedish. These last two children were the most different.

In Gay Talese's book about his Italian family, "Under The Son" that was published several years ago, he describes a similar conglomeration of Italian types in his family.

I found Milano -people and life- to be so different from the rest of Italy. When I commented on that I was told that is because Milan is the commercial centre of Italy and the Milanese all businessmen!

The V-Emannuel Gallery has wonderful trattorias or small eating places and is not far from the Duomo, that monumental church.

A today comment: would you have imagine in Milano that you could be pulled from your occupations by the loud call of the Moslem Muezzin? It happened to me. There is a large community and Saudi-Arabs contributed the funds and the builders for a big mosque. Same as in Geneva Switzerland.

I don't imagine there is a single city in America where one can walk down the street and hear the loud call of the Moslem Muezzin. Milan must be a very cosmopolitan city.

Robby

"The Lombards developed a progressive civilization.
"The king was elected and advised by a council of notables and usually submitted his legislation to a popular assembly of all free males of military age. King Rathari (643) published a code of laws at once primitive and advanced. It allowed money compensation for murder, proposed to protect the poor against the rich, ridiculed the belief in withhcraft, and gave freedom of worship to Catholic, Arian, and pagan alike.
"Intermarriage absorbed the Germanic invaders into the Italian blood and won them to the Latin tongue. The Lombards left their signature here and there in blue eyes, blond hair, and a few Teutonic words in Italian speech.
"As the conquest subsided into law, the commerce natural to the valley of the Po was resumed. By the end of the Lombard period the cities of northern Italy were rich and strong, ready for the arts and wars of their medieval peak.
"Literature faltered. From this age and realm time has preserved only one book of significance -- Paul the Deacon's History of the Lombards (c.748). It is dull, poorly arranged, and without a grain of philosophic salt.
"But Lombardy left its name on architecture and finance. The building trades had retained some of their old Roman organization and skill. One group, the magistri Comacini, or masters of Como, took the lead in compounding a 'Lombard' style of architecture that would later ripen into Romanesque.
"Within a generation after Liutprand the Lombard kingdom broke against the rock of the papacy.
"King Aistulf seized Ravenna in 751, and ended the Byzantine exarchare. As the ducatus Romanus or duchy of Rome had been legally under the exarch, Aistulf claimed Rome as part of his widened realm. Pope Stephen II called upon Constantine Copronymus for aid. The Greek emperor sent a harmless note to Aistulf. Stephen, in a move of endless results, appealed to Pepin the Short, King of the Franks. Scenting empire, Pepin crossed the Alps, overwhelmed Aistulf, made Lombardy a Frank fief, and gave all central Italy to the papacy. The popes continud to acknowledge the formal suzerainty of the Eastern emperors but Byzantine authority was now ended in northern Italy. The Lombard vassal King Desiderius tried to restore the independence and conquests of Lombardy.
"Pope Hadrian I summoned a new Frank. Charlemagne swept down upon Pavia, consigned Desiderius to a monastery, ended the Lombard kingdom, and made it a province of the Franks (774)".
Your comments about the Franks and northern Italy?

Robby

Pepin Le Bref, Pepin le Hardi, I hadn't realized it was in that time period, it seemed much earlier. Durant is rearranging for me the bits of history I still had in my memory.

Charlemagne, à la barbe Fleurie, invented schools. May his memory be blessed!

It is barely a century, in 1861, that Italy was unified and HERE is an account of how the French Revolution has been instrumental in its reunification.

Is the rivalry between the Pope and nations an ancient one? Read this ARTICLE from today's NY Times.

Robby

The laws of the Lombard's "allowed money compensation for murder".

I remember some time ago (but forget the context) talking about the development of law in this discussion, and what an advance it was to go from revenge for murder, with its endless counter-revenge and continuation down through the generations, to monetary compensation, followed historically by punishment. This ends the matter, and allows people to go on in peace. It seems that each people have to discover this anew (and some still haven't).

The Corsicans were famous for their endless vendettas Joan.

While many nations still invoke the death penalty we have not advanced much. In some ways anyone with a conscience is punished far more by having to live incarcerated for the rest of their natural life. I do believe in compensation for victims families however.

Carolyn

is self defeating. . .It plays on the fear of death for miscreants who expect to spend eternity in hell, but what if you don't believe in heaven and hell and what if you don't fear death. Then lifelong incarceration and limitation of movement in a small cell is much more to the point. It is and has been cruel but not unusual punishment.

Pepin le Bref did one other significant thing. He gave central Italy to the Papacy and for the first time vested the Papacy with temporal powers. This new territory will grow to become the Papal States.

Out of the Lombard remains will come the Sforzas who will dominate Northern Italy for years to come.

The Normans in Italy

1036-85

"Italy was now abandoned to a thousand years of divided and alien rule whose details we shall not chronicle.
"In 1036 the Normans began the conquest of southern Italy from the Byzantine power. The lords of Normandy were wont to transmit land to all sons equally, as in modern France. But whereas in France the law resulted in small families, in medieval Normandy it resulted in small holdings.
"With no taste for peaceful poverty, and with a zest for adventure and rapine still warm in their Viking memories, some lusty Normans hired themselves out to the rival dukes of southern Italy, fought valiantly for and against Benevento, Salerno, Naples, and Capua, and were given the town of Aversa as their reward. Other Norman young bloods, hearing of lands to be won for a blow or two, left Normandy for Italy. Soon the Normans were numbered enough to fight for themselves.
"By 1053 the boldest of them, Robert Guiscard (i.e. the Wise or Wily), had carved out a Norman kingdom in southern Italy.
"He was of such stuff as myths are made of -- taller than any of his soldiers, strong of arm and will, fair of features, blond of hair and beard, splendid in dress, greedy and liberal of gold, occasionally cruel, always brave.
"Recocgnizing no law but force and guile, Robert overran Calabria, took Benevento almost over the dead body of Pope Leo IX (1054), struck alliance with Nicholas II, pledged him tribute and vassalage, and received from him title to Calabria, Apulia, and Sicily (1059). Leaving his younger brother Robert to conquer Sicily, he himself captured Bari (1071), and drove the Byzantines from Apulia.
"Fretting at the Adriatic barrier, he dreamed of crossing it, taking Constantinople and making himself the mightiest monarch in Europe. He improvised a fleet and defeated the Byzantine navy off Durazzo (1081).
"Bizantium appealed to Venice. Venice responded for she could not be less than queen of the Adriatic. In 1082 her skillful galleys routed Guiscard's ships not far from the site of his recent victory.
"But in the following year Robert, with Caesarean energy transported his army to Durazzo, defeated there the forces of Alexius I, the Greek Emperor and marched across Epirus and Thessaly almost to Salonika. Then, on the verge of realizing his dream, he received a desperate appeal from Pope Gregory VII to come and save him from the Emperor Henry IV. Leaving his army in Thessaly, Robert hurried back to Italy, raised a new force of Normans, Italians, and Saracens, rescued the Pope, captured Rome from the Germans, suppressed an uprising of the people against his army and allowed his angry soldiers to burn and sack the city so thoroughly that not even the Vandals of 451 could euqal this destructiveness (1084).
"Meanwhile his son Bohemond returned to confess that his army in Greece had been destroyed by Alexius. The old buccaneer built a third fleet, defeated the Venetian navy off Corfu (1084), took the Ionian isle of Cephalonia and died there of infection or poison at the age of seventy (1085)
"He was the first and greatest of the condottieri, the robber captains of Italy."
The southern Mediterranean dwellers get a taste of the northern Viking taste for blood.

Robby

mercenaries

I have to admire Durant for his use of adjectives, although it gets heavy at times. Look at his use of superlatives:

"He was of such stuff as myths are made of -- taller than any of his soldiers, strong of arm and will, fair of features, blond of hair and beard, splendid in dress, greedy and liberal of gold, occasionally cruel, always brave.

I can just imagine how much email this Robert Guiscard would have received if he had lived in our time. His son, Bohémond de Torrante, who looked like his father in every way, followed in his father's footsteps during the Crusades.

Robert Guiscard, would that be an ancestor of Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, President of France, 1974 to 81?

Éloïse

It is no wonder that in 1095 when Urban called for a crusade against the eastern peoples that Bohemond was quick to respond. He had already had his butt kicked once by Alexis, the Byzantine successor to the eastern Roman emperors. I remember thinking at the time we here in Senior net read Les Peregrines that it was strange to find Normans coming from southern Italy. I expected the Normands to come from Normandy not Italy. The Adriatic crossing places were at Bari and Brindisi and the Normans came from Tarento just a short distance away.

I was going to mention this Justin but you did, good. I would think too that Normans had to have come from Normandie in France and I would read by this: "some lusty Normans hired themselves out to the rival dukes of southern Italy, fought valiantly for and..." that those lusty Normans probably had some of the northern genes of the Vikings,

Venice

451-1096

"Meanwhile, at the northern end of the peninsula, a new state had been born, destined to grow in power and splendor while most of Italy withered in anarchy.
"In the barbarian invasions of the fifth and sixth centuries -- above all during the Lombard invasion of 568 -- the populations of Aquileia, Padua, Belluno, Feltre, and other towns fled for safety to join the fisher folk who dwelt in the little islands formed by the Piave and Adige Rivers at the head of the Adriatic Sea. Some refugees remained after the crises passed and founded the communities of Heraclea, Melamocco, Grado, Lido and Rivo Alto (Deep River) -- which, as Rialto, became the seat of their united government (811).
"A tribe of Veneti had occupied northeastern Italy long before Caesar. In the thirteenth century the name Venezia was applied to the unique city that had grown from the refugee settlements.
"Life was hard there at first.
"Fresh water was difficult to secure and was valued like wine. Forced to market on the mainland, in exchange for wheat and other commoditeies, the fish and salt that they drew from the seas, the Venetians became a people of boats and trade.
"Gradually the commerce of northern and central Europe with the Near East flowed through Venetian ports. The new fedeeration, to protect itself from Germans and Lombards, acknowledged Byzantium as its overload. But the inaccessibility of the islands, in their shallow waters, to attack by land or sea, the industry and fortitude of the citizens, the mounting wealth of their spreading trade, gave the little state an unbroken sovereignty through a thousand years."
Venice -- beautiful Venice. Ah, the romance!

Robby

Cephalonia is where my grandparents came from and where they returned to die.

Venezia must have been quite easy to defend but with it's water shortage, vulnerable to seige. Take away all the bridges that link the various parts of the city and the motoscafi and what is left is a series of islets in a salt marsh. Even today industry selects land on the mainland in preference to the well bridged islet city.

Venetians have a great awareness of the usefulness of historical artifacts but little understanding of the importance of preservation. Though it is essential to their current livlihood they fail miserably to protect their treasure. The great art they are entrusted with is poorly maintained. The works of the Bellinis, Titian, and Tintoretto are in their care. The Tintorettos hang upon walls, dirty and dark. Titians reside in their original settings with little care. Everything is exposed to the damp of the salt marsh.

When the waters of the gulf rise things are moved up one floor. Planks are laid to let one walk above the water filled pavements. Venezia is a city decaying slowly and it's art treasure is vulnerable. The art world goes there to cry.

It is desirable to see great art in it's original setting. The pieces belong together. So often we see works in museums, out of original context, and in company with unrelated works. Surely the Venetian presentation is a desirable one but preservation in this conext is essential though admittedly extremely expensive.

I saw a PBS special about Venice. It is sinking!! The "agua alta" (floods) are getting worse and worse. There are expensive projects in place to try to deal with the problem, but no one knows whether they will work. Very sad.

This map of ITALY showing various cities indicates the location of Venice at the head of the Adriatic Sea.

Robby

Here are many many gorgeous PHOTOS OF VENICE.
Allow time for downloading. Click onto the photos to enlarge and notice the continuation numbers at the bottom.

Robby

I do not have a clue about what I have posted here, but maybe some engineer does. This seems to be what is being done for an undersea activity, which may relate to saving Venice from sinking.

http://mb-soft.com/public2/venice.html

Venice could be saved from sinking into the sea by using oil-industry technology ... being discovered, analyzed and restored in southern Italy and Sicily.

. . .On the Italian side, Sidra/Tideway had earlier completed the 700m long landfall at Gela, pulling the pipeline ashore between the flanks of a cofferdam built across the Sicilian sand dunes. With the sandy terrain here providing much easier working conditions, a small trailing suction hopper dredger was deployed instead of a cutting suction dredger.

...'The construction of shore approaches and landfalls for offshore pipelines are amongst the most delicate and complex hydraulic engineering projects,' observes Tideway's Hubert Fiers. 'They require precision and close co-operation by all partners. They were performed in both exposed areas and in the nearshore surf zone, requiring at the same time shallow draught and heavy, seaworthy plant.'

MESSAGE FROM MAL

Howdy,

Here's the latest progress report:

Joan, my physiotherapist, came in today and told me she convinced people that I would not give them all the pip if I went in the workout-gym, so I went there and walked the length of the parallel bars and back, unassisted. I'm very, very pleased about this.

I guess I told you all that I lost so much weight that my teeth don't fit. When I looked in the mirror next to the parallel bars, I saw this apparition in a black button front dress and a straw hat. The dress was hanging on me. I still cannot believe I am this thin.

That's it for now. Stay well. Be well.

Mal

Catanzaro exhibit toe of Italy

Greek presense prior to the Romans. . . . Claire

MeriJo, what a clever idea in that article, but would it not be so heavy a weight, to raise that city, that pumps would not have enough strength to fight the pressure?

Thanks for those beautiful pictures Robby. It's one of my regrets that I never visited Venice.

Glad to hear great news from Mal. To get well again is a long process . Hopefully it will not take too long for her to come back home. Library day today, I 'll have to rush out on this torrid day and hope that the library a/c is still working. It tends to go on strike when most needed. Bubble

P.S. To crown it, at home we are without a lift indefinitely

It is not only a historic city full of art treasures. The gondolas are but only one of its charming traits, when I was young we used to sing this song and dream of Venice

"Au rhytme des flots argentés ... qui bercent ma gondole ... je viens ce soir chanter pour toi ma douce barcarole..."

Do you remember this song Bubble?

I went to Venice once and was completely enchanted by it. We visited museums and sat at a café a long time, admired the famous St. Marc Basilica, window shopped in front of tiny boutiques lining the narrow streets, went across 'Le Pont des Soupirs' and watched the gondolas rock back and forth in front of Le Palais des Doges.

If Durant does not mention the romantic side of Venice, I will be very disappointed but not surprised.

Éloïse

"In Venice twelve tribunes -- apparently one for each of the twelve principal islands -- managed the government until 697, when the communities, feeling the need of a united authority, chose their first dux or doge -- leader or duke -- to serve until death or revolution should depose him.
"Doge Agnello Badoer (809-27) so skillfully defended the city against the Franks that the doges were chosen from his descendants until 942. Under Orscolo II (991-1008) Venice revenged herself against the raids of Dalmatian pirates by storming their lairs, absorbing Dalmatia and establishing her control over the Adriatic.
"In 998 the Venetians began to celebrate, on every Ascension Day, this mritime victory and mastery by the symbolic ceremony of the sposalizia. The doge, from a gaily decorated galley, flung into the open waters a consecreated ring and cried in Latin 'We marry you, the sea, in sign of our true and perpetual dominion.'
"Byzantium was glad to accept Venice as an independent ally and rewarded her useful friendship with such commercial privileges at Constantinople and elsewhere tht Venetian trade reached out to the Black Sea and even to the ports of Islam."
Robby

Venice as QUEEN OF THE SEAS.

Robby

The ECONOMIC HISTORY OF VENICE.

Robby

BIG PICTURE OF VENICE VIEWED FROM A SAELLITE

I see the street where our hotel was on on the left of the train station. Place St Mark is clearly defined. This city without cars is extraordinary, everything is within easy walking distance. On Sundays everything is closed and store fronts are boarded up, it becomes like a ghost town.

Eloise - you wondered if Bubble remembered this song:

"Au rhytme des flots argentés ... qui bercent ma gondole ... je viens ce soir chanter pour toi ma douce barcarole..."

I cannot translate. But the minute we started reading about Venice, the song I learned in elementary school came back to me...I loved that song. Some of the words:

"If you should go to Venice, you'd find a magic town....the streets are flowing rivers, and the boats glide up and down. A gondola stops at the doorway and the boatman sings his song (?)....." and on and on. Lovely music. Our children's choir loved to sing it.

I wondered if it might be the same song?

Sun

Venice is barely Italian.It is far more Byzantine than Italian. The city bears the marks of a seaborne population. The merchants who ruled the city through a Dogge brought back from cities across the Adriatic the art wealth of the Orient.

Byzantine artisans from Constantinople built St Mark's Cathedral beginning in the ninth century and rebuilt it over and over again through the centuries.

The story of St. Mark's bones is an interesting one. Venetian sailors swiped some bones from a church in Alexandria, passed them off as the bones of St. Mark and placed them in the treasury of the Venitian cathedral. When the bones were later burned in a fire the faithful later, miraculously, found the missing bones. Who knows the difference. Bones are bones. Relics were pretty important in those days to give a cathedral and a city stature.

Eloise; You are so right. There is a wonderful romantic side to Venice that is full of magic. The first time I visited the city a tidal overflow made walking in the Piazzetta difficult but the shops that line the Square were open and busy.Musical ensembles played cliche Italian music and the coffee drinkers filled all the seats. We walked on duck boards and the city had moved to the second floor.

When one first walks into the Square in front of St. Marks the scene takes one's breath away. The vastness of the open space in a city so tightly built is awesome. Pigeons are everywhere. The clock Tower with it's bell ringing hammerers operates in spite of the water. The great lion of St. Mark with it's blue background and the four horses atop the cathedral facade are wonders to behold.

It is the quiet back streets with their hidden little restaurants that provide romance to the city. At night these streets are narrow,dark and cavernous but when one looks in the corners there are lovers. It is spooky, but safe and romantic.

Italian Civilization

566-1095

"While eastern and southern Italy remained Byzantine in culture, the rest of the peninsula evolved a new civilization -- a new language, religion, and art -- from its Roman heritaqe.
"For even amid invasion, chaos, and poverty, that heritage was never wholly lost. The Italian language was the rude Latin of the ancient populace, transforming itself slowly into the most melodious of all tongues.
"Italian Christianity was a romantic and colorful paganism, an affectionate polytheism of local and protective saints, a frank mythology of legend and miracle.
"Italian art suspected Gothic as barbarous, clung to the basilican style, and finally, in the Renaissance, returned to Augustan forms.
"Feudalism never prospered in Italy. The cities never lost their ascendancy over the countryside. Industry and commerce, not agriculture, paved the roads to wealth.
"Rome, never a commercial city, continued to decline.
"Its senate had perished in the Gothic War. Its ancient municipal institutions, after 700, were empty tools and rebel dreams. The motley populace, living in a squalor alleviated by sexual license and papal alms, could express its political emotions only by frequent uprisings against foregn masters or disfavored popes.
"The old aristocratic families spent their time competing with one another for control of the papacy or with the papacy for control of Rome. Where consuls, tribunes, and senators had once forged laws with rods and axes, social order was now barely sustained by the decrees of ecclesiastical councils, the sermons and agents of bishops, and the dubious example of thousands of monks, of every nationality, not seldom idle and not always celebate.
"The Church had denounced the promiscuity of the public baths. The great halls and pools of the thermae were deserted, and the pagan art of cleanliness was in decay. The imperial aqueducts having been ruined by neglect or war, the people drank the waters of the Tiber. The Circus Maximus and the Colosseum of bloody memory were no longer used. The forum began in the seventh century to revert to the cow pasture from which it had been formed.
"The Capitol was paved with mire. Old temples and public buildings were dismembered to provide material for Christian churches and palaces. Rome suffered more from Romans than from Vandals and Goths.
"The Rome of Caesar was dead and the Rome of Leo X had yet to be born."
"And this, too, shall pass away."

Robby

Italian diplomacy in action --

"ITALY: BERLUSCONI ANGERS FINNS All the manly charms of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi were not enough to keep Italy's ambassador to Finland out of trouble. The ambassador was summoned to the Finnish Foreign Ministry after Mr. Berlusconi revealed his techniques for persuading the Finnish president, Tarja Halonen, to give up her country's bid, in favor of Italy, as home of the European Union's food safety office. "I had to use all my playboy tactics, even if they have not been used for some time," Mr. Berlusconi said at the opening of the new office in Parma on Tuesday. In 2001, in the midst of the duel over which country would be assigned the office, Mr. Berlusconi staked a claim to Italian culinary supremacy, saying, "Finns don't even know what prosciutto is." On Tuesday, he disparaged Finnish food again. "I've been to Finland and I had to endure the Finnish diet, so I am in a position to make a comparison," he said. News accounts differed on whether he was most offended by smoked reindeer or smoked herring." Ian Fisher (NYT)

When I was a young delivery boy in NYC, I used to take packages to the French Building in Rockefeller Center. I used to ride up and down with the freight elevator man and listen to his philosophies.
One day he said to me:="French is the language of diplomacy -- Italian is the language of beauty -- German is the language of command -- and English is the language of commerce."

Robby

not Finland evidently but France? as well as Italy. . .not UK either unless you dig mutton and warm beer. . .???

"Italian art suspected Gothic as barbarous". This is what gave us the marvelous dome in Florence. The people of Florence were not about to have those barbarous flying buttresses, and had complete faith that a dome could be supported without them. People are still trying to figure out how it works.

The DOME IN FLORENCE.

Robby

is part of a virtual tour of Florence.

that would be a must for me if I ever got to go to europe. the tour is very inf9ormative, nice pictures and they won't let us copy them. . . I tried . . Claire

Claire, this link of The Duomo is in French but if you click on the images one after the other, you can have a 360 degree panoramic view of each one. It is quite something to see.

INSIDE ARCHITECTURE OF THE DUOMO IN FLORENCE

Bubble:

I don't know. Maybe it could be done in sections! Better though than those gates. I do hope that politics loses out here and a real program for raising the city or drying it out is pursued.

I've been to Venice a couple of times and the last time because I wanted to have something while sitting in the Piazza di San Marco, I had a coca-cola and was happy to pay six dollars for it. I enjoyed the orchestra, watched the pigeons and delighted in the atmosphere. I was by myself, shoot!

Last night I caught up with 50 unread posts and very much wanted to post regarding the section about the Normans, their provenance, and Robert Guiscard. May I, an infrequent poster, say that Durant compresses a great many things in that section.

He does mention Pope Gregory VII and Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV but gives no details about their epic struggle, which was in fact emblematic of the conflicts between the emperors and the papacy. I had intended to post links to both Gregory VII and Henry IV and the struggle about Investiture,in order to at least provide a hint to what caused the rift.
But here we are 25 posts later and already in Venice, mamma mia ! ROBBY, your tempo is exhausting !

Also, ROBBY, I have a question or two on that penultimate quoted section regarding Robert Guiscard.
In par. 5, "Recognizing no law but force ..." , Durant writes "Leaving his younger brother Robert to conquer Sicily ..." So Robert Guiscard's brother was also named Robert ?

In par. 8, Durant writes "Leaving his army in Thessaly, Robert hurried back to Italy, raised a new force of Normans, Italians, and Saracens, rescued the Pope, captured Rome from the Germans, suppressed ..."
but does not mention how the pope was rescued. And who were those Germans from whom he captured Rome?

______________

When I was in Europe last, a young German relative handed me a piece of paper that was circulating in his class at the time. Rather sophomoric, I thought, and didn't ask about its origin. But I kept it. Here it is.

"EUROPE
Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks French, the mechanics German, the lovers Italian, and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, the police German, and it is all organised by the Italians."

I hope we won't leave Venice quite yet. It is one of my most favorite places in the whole world where I studied and lived.

I too am sad about leaving Venice so soon. We just arrived, for goodness sake and there is so much to talk about.

Traude: the Investiture problem is ahead of us somewhere but we move so fast these days you might easily miss it when it comes.

Eloise, I remember that song... my dad used to sing it sotto voce to my mum when he was in a romantic mood!

Sorry I am not keeping up with the pace lately: private life taking much of my time with us having birthdays, anniversary and other less pleasant dates to commemorate. The People of the Book are people who remember dates and events.

God builds his temple in the heart on the ruins of churches and religions. -Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)

I received this quote in a mail. Can anyone explain it to me? Since we are talking about faith, it seemed the place to ask.

Traude:-I guess you have no choice but to cancel your subscriptions to other SN discussions and spend all your time here!
May I say seriously that one of the factors that determines how fast we move is the number of postings related to each of Durant's comments. If I post some text and there are maybe 7-8 reactions, then I hover around a while. On the other hand, if only three people respond or there are four postings, three of them by the same person, then I see that the interest is much less and I move on.
We are now in the section titled "Italian Civilization" and any further comments about Venice are certainly aprpos.

Robby

"The old libraries were scattered or destroyed and intellectual life was almost confined to the Church.
"Science succumbed to the superstition that gives romance to poverty. Only medicine kept its head up, changing with monastic hands to the Galenic heritage. Perhaps out of a Benedictine monastery at Salerno in the ninth century a lay medical school took form which bridged the gap between ancient and medieval medicine as Hellenized south Italy bridged the gap between Greek and medieval culture.
"Salerno had been a health resort for over a thousand years. Local tradition described its collegium Hippocraticum as composed of ten physician instructors of whom one was a Greek, one a Saracen, one a Jew.
"About the year 1060 Constantine 'the African,' a Roman citizen who had studied medicine in the Moslem schools of Africa and Baghdad, brought to Monte Cassino (where he became a monk) and to nerby Salerno an exciting cargo of Islamic medical lore. His translations of Greek and Arabic words in medicine and other fields shared in the resurrection of science in Italy.
"At his death (c. 1087) the school of Salerno stood at the head of medical knwoledge in the Christian West.
"The distinctive achievement of art in this age was the establishment of the Romanesque architectural style (774-1200).
"Inheriting the Roman tradition of solidity and permanence, the Italian builders thickened the walls of the basilica, crossed the nave with a transept, added towers or attached pillars as buttresses, and supported with columns or clustered piers the arches that upheld the roof.
"The characteristic Romanesque arch was a simple semicircle, a form of noble dignity, better fitted to span a space than to bear a weight. In early Romanesque the aisles -- in later Romanesque the nave and aisles -- were vaulted, i.e. roofed with arched masonry. The exterior was usually plain and of surfaced brick. The interior, though moderately adorned with mosaics, frescoes, and carvings, shunned the luxurious decoration of the Byzantine style.
"Romanesque was Roman. It sought stability and power rather than Gothic elevation and grace. It aimed to subdue the soul to a quieting humility rather than life it to a heavy storming ecstasy.
"Italy produced in this period two masterpieces of Romanesque -- the modest church of Sant'Ambrogio at Milan and the immense duomo of Pisa.
"The building from whose doors Ambrose had barred an emperor was rebuilt by Benedictines in 789 and again decayed. From 1046 to 1071 Archbishop Guido had it completly remodeled from a colonnaded basilica into a vaulted church. Nave and aisles, formerly roofed with wood, now sustained -- by round arches springing from compound piers -- a vaulted ceiling of brick and stone.
"The groins or ridges formed in the vault by the intersecting masonry arches were reinforced with 'ribs' of brick. This is the oldest 'ribbed vault' in Europe."
Superstition gives romance to poverty? Romanesque aimed to subdue the soul to a quieting humility?
Much here about medicine, art, and philosophical approach. Your comments, please?

Robby

SALERNO as an ocean port of call.

Robby

Here is an excellent HISTORY OF SALERNO.

Robby

Here are many many BEAUTIFUL PHOTOS OF SALERNO. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

Traude, that is so funny. I am well acquainted with the British, French, Swiss, Germans and Italians for having resided in those countries for different lengths of time and it certainly would be "Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, the police German, and it is all organised by the Italians." if it was true I would never go back there. Please do tell us more about Venice, I was there but older I would have appreciated it even more.

Here are many examples of ROMANESQUE ARCHITECTURE. Click on photos to enlarge.

Robby

http://www.officine.it/montecassino/main_e.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3720333.stm

All about the famous Monte Cassino Abbey

Here is a photo and some text about SANT'AMBROGIO AT MILAN.

Robby

Thank you, Bubble, for those links to Monte Cassino. My grandfather was born near there. He lived throughout WWII and as he sat over here in NYC I wonder what thoughts went through his head as he heard the news.

Robby

Here is a photo of what Durant described as the "IMMENSE" DUOMO OF PISA.

Robby

When I saw the cathedral of Albi, I felt as if I had approached a forest with gigantic trees.

I am adding Sant' Ambrogio to my list of "must visit" for my next tour in Italy, but not this year unfortunately.

Amazing tour. With my snail-like browser, I've been sitting here for hours, basking.

Look an awful lot like where I live on the southern CA coastline especially this one

santa monica bay looking north.

I think that's how I got here. My dad was stationed in france with lots of r and r time to travel and fell in love with the mediteranian coast line so that's where we ended up only ours is in California. . even our ersatz architecture at San Juan Capistrano and San Clemente looks like some of the bldgs. in Salerno. Claire

Next time I travel in Europe to see classical monuments I will be able to better separate the two styles of architecture with this explanation of: Romanesque vs Gothic architecture because it is frustrating not to be able to tell which style they belong to.

There comes a time when just enjoying the beauty of it is not enough, but I don't want to know too much because it might interfere with my instinctive appreciation of art while I rely on knowledge rather than on harmony.

Éloïse

instinctive appreciation of beauty is emotional rather than intellectual. Although I guess knowing something about it makes it interesting as well. . .I agree with you. Now all that ersatz Romanesque/Spanish /Italian/Swiss chalet /Cape Cod style architectural eclectasiasims and mixtures of such that we have here is garbage when considered intellectually but some of it is kinda pretty.

Claire

Claire, is art meant to be enjoyed intellectually or emotionally? To me one cancels the other and I would rather trust my heart any time, it is more rewarding. Don't put your area down, it is just in its infancy, give it a century or two after it has suffered a few wars, persecutions, plagues, famine, earthquakes, this is where great artists draw their inspiration from.

In Venice, I noticed several "streets" pathways or walkways, named a "Calle". In Spanish that would be "street". Did the Spanish influence the Venetian naming of streets ? Were the Spanish in Venice as rulers for awhile?

Superstition gives romance to poverty?

This is a puzzling statement for me. It might depend upon the particular superstition.

Romanesque architecture is as firm and forthright as the early Roman examples of architecture I remember about Rome. Straight lines, columns, simplicity, practicality and strength in the arches of viaducts and aquaducts. I did not extract a sense of humility from its design, more one of solidity and a quiet elegance.

The times may have influenced the development of that design. There may have been a minimum of technology for producing the concept as well as manpower, general health of the population and whether or not there was any war-like activity going on. The designers may not have thought as far ahead in developing the artfulness and grace of a Gothic structure, or if they had the designs may not have been acceptable as was hinted by Durant.

It is a particularly exciting period in the evolution of medicine and arts and philosophy. One can only imagine that people were eating right, had a sense of what was right, and the intellect to put all into a proper context for either medical studies, mathematical and scientific knowledge to produce such beautiful works of art and the philosophy of the times was practically affected.

As a girl attending a parochial school I sometimes came home and told my father about some things the nuns and the priest had said in connection to daily life - now, I do not remember - but my father would respond, "Mary, the priests and the nuns did these things for the people. It was to add variety to their otherwise dull lives of mostly work and tending to daily needs." My father referred to the introduction of festivals in honor of a saint or Jesus or the Blessed Mother where there would be a Mass followed by a procession to the piazza where there would be outdoor picnic-type spreads of food - meat on a spit, and much interaction and gaiety. And folk dances would take place and music would be produced on primitive instruments at first - later developing to a mandolin, violin, a concertina.

This was indeed a wonderful philosophy that was being introduced to the people of Italy.

In Venice, I noticed several "streets" pathways or walkways, named a "Calle".

MeriJo, the word "calle" in Italian means a path, a narrow lane. In Spanish, "calle" means a street, a real road. An alley would be a callejon or a camino in Spanish. Same words don't always have the same meaning in a different language.

are in Spanish. Eloise we just had some earthquakes which are common here and are currently having a group of brush fires. . .the flooding will come later in the rainy season from the leftover denuding of the hills as well as landslides any time due to the fires. all this and an occasional water spout or dry year lack of water and electricity crises are enough to paint about write about and live with cautiously. Then there are racial tensions, gang warfare etc. Drama is common in one form or another.

Don't forget this is movie land and celebrities are our next door neighbors. We watch them with interest and even obsession. . . .and religion flourishes everywhere in all shapes and sizes due to our diversity. . . .

California . . . . bears a resemblance in many ways to Europe as a whole. . . PLUS . . .

and BUBBLES Camino here is a main drag in my case "Camino Capistrano" and also used on many residential streets indescriminantly. Estrella is pronounced with the L'S INTACT instead of correctly as Spanish dictates as a Y or Estryya. . . . we're weird here. Frequently superstition and imagination rule over reason

Claire

Bubbles:

Thank you for the definition.

One most certainly could not drive down the calle I saw, not even in a Fiat.

Eloise, you asked Claire whether to react to art emotionally or intellectually. May I give you my (perhaps idiosynchratic) answer? For me, it is a question of sequence: first I react emotionally, and then I intellectually analyze my reactions. Claire, a penny (or much more) for your opinion.

Claire and Hegeso, I can almost feel your trying to explain my (primitive) reaction to art but perhaps our DL will come right in and post Durant to bring us back in line, so I won't even try it. I know what you are saying, but no thanks I like myself this way besides, it's too late to change now.

Reacting to art is definitely "in line" as art and architecture is exactly what Durant is talking to us about at this time.
Any reactions to the various links?

Robby

Bubble thanks for the links to the Monte Cassino Abbey. Like Robby, I have family connections to the WW2 battles for that site. I regret to say that it was at the insistence of my New Zealand countrymen that the Abbey was bombed to destruction.

The Abbey monks have always claimed that the Germans never had fortified the Abbey, and had not even used it as an observation point. However, in war, suspicion so often overwhelms fact, and so the bombing was ordered.

My father-in-law was among the Polish troops who finally captured the site, and he and his fellows wondered if any would survive the headon assaults that they were ordered to undertake. It was the French who managed to get into the hills behind the Germans and force their retreat.

It was at Cassino that my F-in-L met the New Zealand troops that prompted him to tell his wife and daughter, then in Iran, after their being released from Siberia, to go to NZ if possible, and if he survived he would follow them there after the war's end.

And that's how my future wife arrived here as a desperate refugee, with 700 other Polish children, way back in 1944.=== Trevor

Eloise: Claire told you in her 777 that her approach to art is emotional.She is very knowledgeable technically and she allows her emotions to dictate design.She creates some very interesting images that way. You on the other hand, if I read you correctly, react to art emotionally. You are two peas in a pod so there is little chance that she would either criticize or feel superior to your "primitive" approach.

I am the opposite of you two. Art to me is, almost exclusively, an intellectual excercize.I give way to the work of artists such as Kirschner, a color dominated abstract expressionist, who emotes all over a canvas. The intent of the work is emotion expressed in color. The same is true for the figurative painter Gauguin who uses non local color to achieve an emotional reaction to his work.

In the case of architecture, however, knowledge of the building inventions that support the history of style can deepen one's appreciation of the beauty of a building.

Do not sell your reactions to art short. Both approaches, intellectual and emotional, are useful.

Christian Spain

(711-1095)

"The history of Christian Spain in this period is that of one long crusade -- the rising resolve to expel the Moors.
"These were the rich and strong. They held the most fertile terrain and had the best government. The Christians were poor and weak, their soil was difficult, their mountain barriers shut them off from the rest of Europe, divided them into petty kingdoms and encouraged provincial chauvinism and fraternal strife.
"In this passionate peninsula more Christian blood was shed by Christians than by Moors.
"The Moslem invasion of 711 drove the unconquered Goths, Suevi, Christianized Berbers and Iberian Celts into the Cantabrian Mountains of northwestern Spain
"The Moors pursued them but were defeatd at Covadonga (718) by a small force under the Goth Palato, who thereupon made himslf King of Asturias, and so founded the Spanish monarchy. The repulse of the Moors at Tours allowed Alfonso I (739-57) to extend the Asturian frontiers into Galicia, Lusitania, and Viscaya.
"His grandson Alfonso II (791-842) annexed the province of Leon and made Oviedo his capital.
"In this reign occurred one of the pivotal events of Spanish history.
"A shepherd, allegedly guided by a star, found in the mountains a marble coffin whose contents were believed by many to be the remains of the Apostle James, 'brother of the Lord.' A chapel was built on the site and later a splended cathedral. Santiago de Compostela -- 'St. James of the Field of the Star' -- became a goal of Christian p8lgrimage, only less sought than Jerusalem and Rome. The sacred bones proved invaluable in stirring morale and raising funds for the wars against the Moors. St. James was made the patron saint of Spain and spread the name Santiago over three continents.
"Beliefs make history, especially when they are wrong. It is for errors that men have most nobly died."
Any comments about this bit of history? Any reactions to the last two sentences?

Robby

Does this ARTICLE in today's NY Times relate in any way to Durant's last two sentences?

Robby

Here is a GEOGRAPHICAL MAP OF SPAIN.

Robby

This map of Spain shows the CANTABRIAN MOUNTAINS AND OLVIEDO in the north where the Goths, Christianized Berbers, Celts and Suevi were pushed.

Robby

A photo of the cathedral of SANTIAGO DE COMPOSTELA.

Robby

It is with much sorrow that I read the story of that roumanian nun, because it parallels a story I hear in nearby Bulgaria.

It is the story of a polio stricken young woman who is in a wheelchair, in an unsanitary flat two floors up with no lift. She was married against her wish by her parents wanting her to be "looked afer" to a man old enough to be her father and a drunkard. She is dependent on him to carry her up and down the stairs if and when he is in a good mood. He is verbally and physically abusive and does not work. She is supporting the family by giving private lessons or doing translations.

She has asked help from her priest and was told that she made the vow to obey her husband in all when she was married. If he is abusive, then she probably is guilty and should ask forgiveness.

http://www.santiago-compostela.net/ The pilgrimage routes to Santiago de Compostela in pictures

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2002233365_tressay10.html

an experience based on the pilgrimage road

http://europeforvisitors.com/europe/articles/santiago_de_compostela3.htm

Bubble:-That Seattle Times article is fascinating.

Robby

We seem always to return to art, so much a part of any age. Justin has me pegged since we have discussed my art at length privately and Eloise is right there beside me. My initial AHHH to beautiful anything is an emotional response that makes me want to approach, to find out more, It's something like the way a child would respond and I'm grateful that I can still be one . . a child. . . although sometimes irrelevant to what the rest of the folks here are doing. . . . Claire

have produced such wonderful images I had to have them so I do. I set up a couple of folder and copied and pasted and even printed as in Vente Veccio, the bridge in venice?. . just responding to the AHHH.. I may paint from them or maybe just continue to enjoy them. . . .Claire

winsum;

I think it's Ponte Vecchio - the old bridge, but I think that one is in Florence over the river Arno where there are many jewelry shops. In Venice, there is "Il Ponte dei Sospiri" the Bridge of Sighs. It is a short span between two buildings and covered over which prisoners walked to their execution. In Venice, also is the Rialto Bridge which is an arched bridge over one of the canals. Ponte de Rialto? (sp.)

It has been 25 years since I have been there and I remember buying some silver bells shaped like angels each (playing) holding a different musical instrument on the Ponte Vecchio. On the Rialto Bridge I bought a millefiori necklace.

You make me want to chuck this cane and book a flight now.

Durant continues about Spain.
"East of Asturias, and just south of the Pyrenees, lay Navarre.
"Its inhabitants were mostly of Basque stock -- probably of mixed Celtic Spanish and African Beber blood. Helped by their mountains they successfully defended their independence against Moslems, Franks, and Spaniards.
"In 905 Sancho I. Garcia founded the kingdom of Navarre with Pamplona as his capital. Sancho 'the Great' (994-1035) won his title by absorbing Leon, Castile, and Aragon. For a time Christian Spain verged on unity. But at his death Sancho undid his life's work by dividing his realm among his four sons.
"The kingdom of Aragon dates its existence from this division. By pressing back the Moslems in the south and peacefully incorporating Navarre in the north (1076), it came by 1095 to include a large part of north-central Spain. Catalonia -- northeastern Spain around Barcelona -- was conquered by Charlemagne in 788 and was ruled by French counts who made the region semi-independent 'Spanish March.' Its language, Catalan, was an interesting compromise between Provencal French and Castilian.
"Leon in the northwest entered history with Sancho the Fat who was so heavy that he could walk only by leaning upon an attendant. Deposed by the nobles, he went to Cordova where the famous Jewish physician and statesman Hasdai ben Shaprut cured him of obesity. Now as lithe as Don Quixote, Sancho returned to Leon and reconquerd his throne (959).
"Castile, in central Spain, was named from its castles. It fronted Moslem Spain and lived in continual readiness for war. In 930 its knights refused any longer to obey the kings of Asturias or Leon and set up an independent state with its capitl at Burgos. Fernando I (1035-65) united Leon and Galicia to Castile, compelled the emirs of Toledo and Seville to pay him yearly tribute and, like Sancho the Great, canceled his labors with his death by dividing his realm among his three sons who zealously continued the tradition of internecine war among the Christian Spanish kings."
Very interesting! How our present Spain came about.

Robby

All you would ever want to know about the BASQUES.

Robby

A brief history of the BASQUES.

Robby

Here is a map of the NAVARRA REGION. Note the city of Pamplona.

Robby

The history of the RUNNING OF THE BULLS in Pamplona.

Robby

I did not know that Ignatius Loyola was a Basque. He was characteristically opinionated enough to be one. The Basque are still fighting for their identity and their pride in their culture remind me much of the same in the Corsicans. They also have a very unique sport. The pelote basque or Pelota.

http://www.buber.net/Basque/Sports/pelota1.html

Here is a history of BULLFIGHTING. Apparently the first historic bullfight took place in honor of the coronation of King Alfonso VIII, descendant of the Alfonso I we have just read about.

Robby

Here is a map of Spain showing THE REGION CATALONIA AND CITY BARCELONA. How close it is to France.

Robby

Read about the CATALAN LANGUAGE.
Durant would be proud of us. We are now all experts about Spain.

Robby

some toreros, look at El Juli!

http://www.muchotoros.com/english/famosos/portadafamosos.html

This is an example of Catalan and I could follow it without too much difficulty. wow! I am sure Eloise will understand it as well.

http://131.111.162.141/catalan/monzo/

Bubble your link didn't open for me, but I know what you mean, Catalan is a combination of French with Spanish much like what they speak in New Brunswick Province where they also speak a mixture of English with French.

I spent 6 weeks in Spain in the Spring of 2002 during the Cristos Fiesta that lasted a week. Among the most memorable things I saw during the times I spent there was the Flaminco dances. Every Spanish woman dresses in their flounced dresses of every color and even girl in their baby prams were dressed like that. Small girls danced the Flamenco dances together while their parents performed on a stage set up in parks.

I have never seen such exhuberence in a usually sombre population. The dark skinned Spaniards have a serious nature, more than Italians I found. It was an enchantment to see first hand how they celebrate their religious holiday at the end of May every year with processions meandering through narrow streets where ladies would drop rose petals from their balconies as the procession passed by.

People sang hymns and behaved well in spite of tight crowds massed on the streets to watch respectfully and a hand would touch the base of a statue of Mary passing by.

FLAMENCO DANCERS

See the 20" fringe on the shawl of that dancer. I couldn't help myself and bought one with a shorter fringe that I wear now and then especially to a Seniornet Bash. No, I didn't buy the castagnettes, but I loved the sound of them.

Éloïse

" Amb aquesta iniciativa us donem l'oportunitat de reforçar els vostres coneixements de català d'una manera amena i interactiva. Tot seguit trobeu un índex de les lliçons del curs de català per a adults Digui, digui, que és el que seguim a la Facultat de Llengües Modernes i Medievals de la Universitat de Cambridge. Si assistiu a aquestes classes és convenient que feu els exercicis corresponents al vostre nivell, és a dir, els de les lliçons que ja heu vist a classe. No obstant això, també us aconsellem fer-los encara que no seguiu aquest manual, per a la qual cosa podeu guiar-vos pel títol de la lliçó."

Here is the first paragraph of that site Eloise. Strange that for me it opened easily.

Bubble:-It didn't open for me either.

Robby

Hi Eloise and Bubbles and All

Flamenco song and dance is an art inherited from the Gypsies . . not exactly part of Christianity's history. I learned about it as a folk guitarist when learning to play the music for Faruka, Soleares and others. The dances utilize much footwork and tapping especially in Faruka which is exciting and nerve wracking too. And the singing is passionate It's wonderful stuff but hardly religious. Odd that it's part of a religious celebration. . . . Claire

An ARTICLE in the NY Times Magazine about architecture in present-day Russia -- both Orthodox and modern.

Robby

Romanesque architecture is well named for it is an outgrowth of Roman architecture and that in turn a derivative of Greek architecture. The Doric and Corinthian orders are very clearly the forebears of the Romanesque style.

The designers and builders of the Romanesque used the ruins of Roman monuments not only to guide their work but to form the actual construction. Monuments were cannibalized piece by piece to find their way into new Romanesque structures. It was the monks of Europe who built in the Romanesque style. They built churches primarily but also utility buildings for monasteries. The churches rose on stone stolen from the monuments of antiquity.

Compression is at the heart of the Romanesque style. Stone on stone in downward thrust keeps these structures stable. Walls were made many feet thick which prevented light from penetrating the interior. Semi circular, rounded arches supported entryways and windows. Roofs were leaded and rose above four ribbed groin vaults.

During fires, which were frequent, the lead melted and so spread the fire to adjoining parts of a church. Such a fire is described in the archives of Canterbury where many such fires did damage to the cathedral and earlier churches on the site.

http://spanish.about.com/library/questions/aa-q-castilian.htm

Why Is Spanish Sometimes Called Castilian?

I hope this page opens.... you can see both text in English and Catalan when you go to the second page. It also shows a map of where it is spoken.

http://www.june29.com/HLP/lang/Catalan/webcat1.html

About cathedrals

http://sarumtravel.com/gothic_enterprise.html

Anyone read "The pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett? It is all about building a cathedral in England. an engrossing book, highly recommended at my library!

http://www.ken-follett.com/bibliography/pillars.html

twelfth century semi sci fi. . my first ken follett book and the best I think. . . .Claire

science fiction??? no, it is most realistic! Mystery perhaps...

"So divided against itself, Christian Spain achieved its slow reconquista only because Moslem Spain finally surpassed it in fragmentation and anarchy. The fall of the Cordovan caliphate in 1036 offered an opportunity brilliantly used by Alfonso VI of Castile. With the help of al-Mutamid of Seville he captured Toledo (1085) and made it his capital. He treated the conquered Moslems with Moslem decency and encouraged the absorption of Moorish culture into Christian Spain."
Robby

France

614-1060

Bubble, "El català és una llengua romànica de la branca occidental."

In French: "Le catalan est une langue romantique de la branche occidentale" similar to French.

French varies from region to region also in France. The elite adopt a dialect and declare it the "pure" language. The Spanish language spoken in Andalusia, I was told by the locals, was the only "proper" Spanish.

I had Ken Follett's Pillars of the earth but hadn't read it yet. Now I will, thanks Bubble.

Éloïse

OK, Eloise. Here we come! Notice the change in the GREEN quotes.

Robby

The Coming of the Carolingians

614-768

"When Clotaire II became king of the Franks, the Merovingian dynasty seemed secure. Never before had a monarch of that family ruled so large and united a realm.
"But Clotaire was indebted for his rise to the nobles of Austrasia and Burgundy. He rewarded them with increased independence and enlarged domains and chose one of them, Pepin I the Elder as his 'Mayor of the Palace.'
"The major domus -- 'head of the house' -- had been originally the superintendent of the royal household and overseer of the royal estates. His administrative functions grew as the Merovingian kings concentrated on debauchery and intrigue. Step by step he took control of the courts, the army, the finances.
"Clotaire's son King Dagobert (628-39) checked for a time the power of the major domus and the grandees. Says the chronicler Fredegar:-'He rendered justice to rich and poor alike. He took little sleep or food and cared only so to act tht all men should leave his presence full of joy and admiration.' Fredegar adds;-'However he had three queens and a host of concubines and was a slave to incontinence.'
"Under his negligent successors -- the rois faineants or do-nothing kings -- power passed again to the mayor of the palace.
"Pepin II the Younger defeated his rivals at the battle of Testry (687), expanded his title from major domus to dux et princeps Francorum and ruled all Gaul except Aquitaine.
"His illegitimate son Charles Martel (the Hammer), nominally as mayor of the palace and Duke of Austrasia, ruled all Gaul under Clotaire IV (717-19). He resolutely repelled invasions of Gaul by Frisians and Saxons and saved Europe for Christianity by turning back the Moslems at Tours.
"He supported Boniface and other missionaries in the conversion of Germany but in the critical financial needs of his career he confiscated church lands, sold bishoprics to generals, quartered his troops on Manasteries, beheaded a protesting monk, and was concemned to hell in a hundred sermons and tracts."
Truth is stranger than fiction. The plot thickens.

Robby

Here is a good resume of France history, just like I remember it from my history book.

http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/texte/atx2_01.htm

Did we have a mention about Dagobert here when we talked of the Merovingians? He is most famous with French kids because of a song on how he wore his breeches inside out and his advisor St Eloi (St. Eligius) had to point it out to him. "Le bon roi Dagobert avait mis sa culotte a l'envers"

St Eloi had the most interesting life. Now I understand why he is so venerated in Belgium.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05386a.htm

Question: what is the Tridentine Rite ? I saw it on the same URL page, "Daily Missal - 1962 Tridentine Rite (Latin Rite) Black / White Leather"

Having just gone through some discussions about Spain, here is an ARTICLE pointing out the current religious-secular controversy in that nation.

Robby

For those of us who like to read the comics, here is one about Gaul, you can read it in French, English Spanish, etc.

ASTERIX CHEZ LES GAULOIS

Correct me if I am wrong, Eloise, but I believe the Spanish people love the church parades as much as they like the corridas and the flamencos. The music, the colors and movements, the togetherness of all three appeal to them immensely.

They might become more secular but the pomp and faste of festivals will remain present.

What is a MAYOR OF THE PALACE?

Robby

While we are examining France in this period of history, lots and lots and lots of other things are going on across Europe. This TIMELINE tells us of other German, English, and Italian events that were happening simultaneously.

Robby

Yes Bubble and they perform them passionnately.

Here is a MAP indicating the various domains in the time of Charles Martel in what is now France.
I find of personal interest that tip of land sticking out into the Atlantic Ocean that was known as Briton. I was there during WWII. That area is known as Finisterre ("end of land" as Bubble previously told us) and is part of what is now known as Bretagne. Many of the older folks spoke only Breton and were fiercely anti-French.

Robby

530 Pope Boniface II succeeds Felix IV
533 Pope John II succeeds Boniface II
535 Pope Agapetus I succeeds John II
536 Pope Silverius succeeds Agapetus I
537 Pope Vigilius succeeds Silverius

What happened for the changeover to be so fast???

Here is an ABSOLUTELY MARVELOUS MAP of the entire Medieval Europe plus part of Asia with many details. You may want to spend some time brousing over areas that Durant has already discussed but before you leave the map, check out Aquitaine in the Southwest corner of France which was mentioned by Durant.

Robby

I need some advice from all you folks.
Here we are following the progress of Civilization from its earliest known history in Sumeria on to the day that Durant ended his writing. Even as I follow along with all the rest of you, I simultaneously read the newspapers as I am sure you all do. And no day goes by without there being news from Africa -- the news always being about corruption, genocide, AIDS, torture, disease, hunger and poverty. It cannot be ignored.
But Durant said very little about sub-Saharan Africa. We know in advance that as we enter his writings about Europe that it will end with Europe and with those people who are white, whether high born or peasants.
What about Africa? Do we bypass that huge continent even as we try to answer the questions in the Heading above -- "Where are we now? Where are we headed? In the past 3 1/2 years we have learned much about negative events such as class differences, class wars, the effect of religion (both good and bad) and the effects of disease. Conversely we have learned much about the benefits of various forms of art, education, economics, politics, and morals. We have also learned that the bottom line is that "people are people."
My questions:-
1 - Can we apply what we have learned in our discussions to what is happening in Africa?
2 - If we bring Africa into the picture, will we disrupt the flow of Durant's regular text? Will we find half of our participants discussing Africa and half discussing the French Medieval Age, for instance?
3 - Should we continue as we have been doing and realize (at least subconsciously) that we are talking only about part of Civilization?
Africa is bursting into flames. Do we care?

Robby

I care very much. When seeing the indifference of those in the world that matter and that could do something more substential... I am left to wonder if the youth in that continent will ever have a future to look forward to.

An African woman got the Nobel prize this year. It was worth a few lines in the paper that day and is already forgotten.

Bubble-And so should we include Africa in our Durant discussions or not? And how do we do it?

Robby

not sci fi? Bubbles do you believe in the poweers of witches? . . . Claire

robby:

Perhaps along with Durant we may find some links connecting Africa to Europe. We know that South Africa was once a colony of Great Britain, the Congo to Belgium, Angola to Portugal, Algeria, Senegal and other regions to France.- Ethiopia (Abyssinia) to Italy - these may be like tangents to our main focus.

I have read several articles in the past of quite wonderful things happening in Africa as a result of Olympic athletes returning to their homeland, of women who have succeeded beyond belief and expectations in finding new food sources for Equatorial Africa where it is so hard to grow food and live -we read here of that remarkable surgeon who has saved so many young women from the problems connected to a fistula - We know of the Gates Foundation funding vaccines - and more.

Perhaps, in this way we could continue with the Durant and include Africa.

MAP of Africa and colonies.

% OF CHILDREN ORPHANED

Thanks for your suggestion, MeriJo. What do the rest of you think?

Robby

those of us from western stock are all AFRICANS. To study it in this formatt could be an enormous project It is so diversified.

Is the work of the Durants more important historically or is a study of Africa in all its aspects more important to us today. I vote for the latter. But then I consider the Durants work to be a good reference but in itself simplistic, too focused on war and religion. . . . Claire

Yes, colonies are a link with Europe. France had many colonies and protectorates there. Congo -Brazzaville for one.

Eloise, I was born on the tip of that Belgium Congo boot in the south-east. Thanks for that map. I never realized Franc ehad so much!

Thank you for that excellent map, Eloise. It certainly shows how much the entire continent of Africa was a vassal to Europe. Perhaps that would help to link us to Africa whenever we were talking about a particular European nation.

Robby

Claire you say:-"Is the work of the Durants more important historically or is a study of Africa in all its aspects more important to us today. I vote for the latter."
The underlining is mine. I wasn't suggesting one or the other. We will most certainly continue through the remaining seven volumes. I was merely asking about occasional links to Africa if they seemed relevant and would not throw us off track.
As for Durant being focused on war and religion, have you been following the news in Africa recently? I'm afraid, based upon what we have been examining in The Story of Civilization for 3 1/2 years, that this IS the story of civilization.

Robby

yes but genicide isn't the only thing of importance on that DARK CONTINENT. . . .Claire

Claire brings up an important topic. Durant says in the Heading above "Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."
When we occasionally relate to Africa, we might ask ourselves if the individual nations in that continent are meeting those four requirements.

Robby

The last two they certainly did and do. They had very strong tribal traditions until these were destroyed by the white man. Their art is very rich and still an inspiration, as well as their music.

They were organized economically and tribally, even if those are not our own standards.

Life and traditions of the Kikuyu who live in Kenya, East africa.

Kikuyu

Here are examples of art

http://www.thefolkartgallery.com/africa.htm

These postings are great but please keep in mind that in a short time we will be back to Medieval France.

Robby

The Durants weave the thread that binds us all together. They are our guides in this venture. Without them we are wanderers-our steps random.

Previous deviations (I think of China, Japan, and India)have been guided by Durant. Mediteranean Africa has always been part of the Durant story. Sub Saharan Africa in the Medieval period was really dark, darker than Europe, and I am surprised that you think to bring it's history into the discussion now as a major topic. Occasional, appropriate,comments should be fine but a major unguided deviation into this area might hamper progress. On the other hand, what can there bein Sub Saharan areas that would take up lots of time and does that matter? We are on a pilgrmage that may exceed our time.

I don't know that we will not be back in Africa before long. Stanley and Livington will take us to the Congo. Bubble brings us in and out of the Congo from time to time. Napoleon will take us to Africa. The Dutch and the Portuguese will bring us there as well.

If there is anything in Sub Sahara,Africa in this Medieval period worth examining I am for reviewing it, even though Durant left it out.

I've collected just a little. American Indian baskets and rugs and when I first saw my only African basket I thought it might be PIMA except for the shape and the very tight weaving. It is actually meant to be worn as head gear and was very reasonable to buy. . . only about sixty dollars. The comparable american basket would be much more. . . but they ere not for heads. . . African art is diverse. I"'d like to know more about it's exact location and culture. This is a very nice site. . . tempting me thank you Bubbles . Claire

Thank you for your thoughts, Justin, and for your reminder that "The Durants weave the thread that binds us all together."

Robby

wouldn't be enough without the INTERNET and LINKS to illustrate. . . personally, I think it's something else that binds us together. . . .a human desire to explore and learn. Claire

"Pepin III 'the Short' was a patient and far-seeing ruler, pious and practical, loving peace and invincible in war, and moral beyond any royal precedent in the Gaul of those centuries.
"All that Charlemagne accomplished was prepared by Pepin. In their two reigns of sixty-three years (751-814) Gaul was at last transformed into France. Pepin recognized the difficulty of governing without the aid of religion. He restored the property, privileges and immunities of the Church -- brought sacred relics to France, and bore them on his shoulders in impressive pageantry -- rescued the papacy from the Lombard kings -- and gave it a spacious temporal power in the 'Donation of Pepin' (756). He was content to receive in return the title of patricius Romanus and a papal injunction to the Franks never to choose a king except from his progeny.
"He died in the fullness of his power in 768, after bequeathing the realm of the Franks jointly to his sons Carloman II and the Charles who was to be Charlemagne."
Robby

Bubble; Were you born near Elizabethville in the east or near Leopoldville in the west?

The Ethiopian Icon of Christ in your link is quite interesting. We see Christ here as a black man. It demonstrates the great desire people have to make God in their own image.

Charlemagne

768-814

"The greatest of medieval kings was born in 742 at a place unknown.
"He was of German blood and speech and shared some characteristics of his people -- strength of body, courage of spirit, pride of race and a crude simplicity many centuries apart from the urbane polish of the modern French. He had little book learning, read only a few books -- but good ones -- tried in his old age to learn writing but never quite succeeded. Yet he could speak old Teutonic and literary Latin and understood Greek.
"In 771 Carloman II died and Charles at twenty-nine became sole king.
"Two years later he received fromn Pope Hadrian II an urgent appeal for aid against the Lombard Desiderius who was invading the papal states. Charlemagne besieged and took Pavia, assumed the crown of Lombardy, confirmed the donation of Pepin, and accepted the role of protector of the Church in all her temporal powers.
"Returning to his capital at Aachen, he began a series of fity-three campaigns -- nearly all led in person -- designed to round out his empire by conquering and Christianizing Bavaria and Saxony -- destroying the troublesome Avars -- shielding Italy from the raiding Saracens -- and strengthening the defenses of Francia against the expanding Moors of Spain.
"The Saxons on his eastern frontier were pagans. They had burned down a Christian church and made occasional incursions into Gaul. These reasons sufficed Charlemagne for eighteen campaigns (772-804), waged with untiring ferocity on both sides. Charles gave the conquered Saxons a choice between baptism and death and had 4500 Saxon rebels beheaded in one day.
"After which he proceeded to Thionville to celebrate the nativity of Christ."
Any comments about this "greatest of medieval kings?

Robby

Justin:

Because early missionaries went into so very diverse regions, when it came time or when the religious study brought out a wish to make a picture, the people usually did draw the religious figures as one of their own race. When I was in Japan, I found paintings (prints) of a Japanese Blessed Mother. Beautiful and delicate, I bought them.

CHARLEMAGNE'S EMPIRE

ANOTHER ONE OF CHARLEMAGNE'S EMPIRE

Strange to see that in the first map, Brittany was British in 800 but not in the other one.

Here is the story of the death in the 20th century of the CITY which had been Charlemagne's capital a thousand years ago.

Robby

MESSAGE FROM MAL VIA DORIAN

I'm sitting here counting the drops as they traverse down this plastic tube which is hooked up to hardware on my wrist. This is my latest post-prandial activity.

About swimming: At one time, I was a very strong swimmer. I belonged to a pool club and swam many laps every day. It is one of my favorite outside sporting athletic events.

As for food after the swim, I like good porterhouse steaks on the grill. You guys can chill out with sorbet and granites while I spread lee and perrins all over my beautiful piece of meat. A hard roll and a salad make the rest of the meal. You could also put a little blue cheese on top of that steak just before you think it is done. MMM delish.

I never worried about scars, abdominal and otherwise when I was younger, and I don't worry about them now. I yam what I yam, says Popeye. Love me or leave me. Don't throw bouquets at me, people we'll say we're nuts.

My fame spreads. At 6 o'clock this morning I was wakened from a sound sleep by a smiling aide who said, "Have you started another book?" and I said, "Oh yeah, I start a new one about every day.: and then I thought 'gee whiz, does she mean read or write a book??' I said,"Write a book?" and she said yes. I told her what was in the works right now.

Well this angel of mercy with a flashlight and a thermometer told me she and one of the nurses are buying my book. So I can chalk up another two sales. Woopee! Maybe I'll have enough someday to bail myself out of this place.

There are dogs that visit us quite frequently here. I saw a Boston Terrier that I really like a lot.

On that note, I'll tell you there is a hamburger and hot dog cook out on the grill here by the veranda July 1st at noon which will be accompanied by the Oddball Drum Quartet. Sounds like fun!

Tuesday I am off to the urologist for one of those painful dealios which I hope is the last ever more.

Alright, my daughter's face and shoulder and ear are getting tired from holding the telephone while she types this lengthy, lengthy message from her garrulous mother, so I quit.

My bathing suit is fire engine red with stars on the long sleeves and stripes on the knickers. That's cause I was born almost a firecracker.

Love 'n' Kizzes,

All American Mal

While we are at Aachen, it is appropriate that we talk about Carolingian architecture. Church basilicas prior to this time were designed to satisfy liturgical needs only ie; religious functional needs. Space for an altar, for example, was was needed but dimensions were not a relevant consideration.

When the Carolingian monastery at St Gall was built the nave and the transept were given the same width and as a result the Crossing became a perfect square. This square was used to design the rest of the building. The transept became three squares long and the nave four and one half squares long plus the crossing square. In this way the parts of the building are related to one another in a geometric scheme that ties them together in a unit.

There is a balancing of units in this scheme that corresponds to that of the Greek. Balance you will recall was an important part of the Greek orders. This scheme will dominate Romanesque architecture as we move into the Tenth and Eleventh Centuries. The scheme fits in with a need to explain the Christian faith in terms of an orderly,rationalistic, philosophy built upon carefully laid propositions and well planned arguments.

The monastery at St. Gall is gone, demolished by the centuries but the plans have been discovered and a model of the complete monastery at St. Gall has been reconstructed. It has been making the rounds of American universities for some years. I saw the model once at UC Berkeley and again at Princeton. It is a worthy and informative effort. It might be on the internet somewhere.

The Palatine Chapel of Charlemagne in Aachen has been reconstructed. It is not in a bacillican format but it does exhibit some of the characteristics of early Romanesque. The interior arcades are formed by semi circular arches which will typify the Romanesque style.

Justin, the boot of Congo is the procince of Katanga with capital Elisabethville or now called Lubumbashi. I was born there, at a 1.200m altitude, which made for a wonderful climate. Climate in Leopoldville/Kinshasa is too terrible for words: humid, clinging heat and incessant rains for 6 months.

Justin, knowing that J. Christ was born in the Betlehem/Nazareth region, I am convinced he was much darker-skin than usually believed. Blond with blue eyes only appeared here after the crusades... Since God is not human, why should he resemble one? He is not made to the image of man.

http://www.kwa.unisg.ch/wunderlich/st_gallen.html

http://www.roebuckclasses.com/101/resources/middleages/gall.htm

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Abbey-of-St.-Gall

The picture of Charlemagne as described by the Durants is totallly at odds with what is written in French History school books. There Charlemagne is painted as a debonair ruler who fought only because of his religious convictions and was magnanimous to all.

He went to celebrate Noel basking in the pride of having saved christianity from the pagan Saxons. All is laudable when done in the name of religion, and that is seen all over the world, time and again.

Durant continues about Charlemagne --
"At Paderborn in 777 Ibn al-Arabi, the Moslem governor of Barcelona had asked the aid of the Christian king against the caliph of Cordova.
"Charles led an army across the Pyrenees, besieged and captured the Christian city of Pamplona, treated the Christian but incalculable Basques of northern Spain as enemies and advanced even to Saragossa.
"But the Moslem uprisings that al-Arabi had promised as part of the strategy against the caliph failed to appear. Charlemagne saw that his unaided forces could not challenge Cordova. News came that the conquered Saxons were in wild revolt and were marching in fury upon Cologne and with the better part of valor he led the army back in long and narrow file through the passes of the Pyrenees.
"In one such pass, at Roncesvilles in Navarre, a force of Basques pounded down upon the rear guard of the Franks, and slaughtered nearly every man in it (778). There the noble Hruodland died who would become three centuries later the hero of France's most famous poem, the Chanson de Roland.
"In 795 Charlemagne sent another army across the Pyrenees, the Spanish March -- a strip of northeast Spain -- became part of Francia. Barcelona capitulated and Navarre and Asturias acknwoledged the Frankish soverignbty (806).
"Meanwhile Charlemagne had subdued the Saxons (785), had driven back the advancing Slavs (789), had defeated and dispersed the Avars (790-805) and had, in the thirty-fourth year of his reign and sixty-third year of his age, resigned himself to peace."
Robby

Here is the SONG OF ROLAND.

Robby

Ah Roland!

http://sweet.ua.pt/~fmart/rolan.htm

Here are the most celebrated verses fo this poem, and it sounds so much better in the original French!

http://eee.uci.edu/programs/medieval/ofclips.html

It says here that you can hear it read. It takes time to download. Unfortunately I did not managed to hear it, possibly a problem with the loudspeakers.

My French wife had often spoken of the Chanson de Roland. Apparently it was a big thing in the French school system.

Robby

I think old French is more like Latin and so different from modern French, the language evolved a lot since then. I guess all languages do.

This too is in the 6th century, not only wars!

http://www.paralumun.com/lovekissorigin.htm

The volume we are reading being "The Age of Faith," we cannot ignore the important RULING handed down today by the U.S. Supreme Court. As I understand it, it is permissible to display the Ten Commandments if they are being shown as an example of a body of law but they can not be displayed for religious purposes.
Your reactions are invited but at the risk of my being excessively redundant, I will re-post our guidelines. Please choose your words carefully.

Robby

Some of the Puritans left Holland because they were afraid that Holland's tolerance of diversity would corrupt the weaker members of their group. They were right. Those who remained behind integrated with the rest of the Dutch population. The bigots who came to these shores and founded their own colony, persecuted all who disagreed with them. The Supreme Court, as well as other branches of our government, seems to be composed of good Puritan stock who find it difficult to understand what it means to live in a diverse society.

Bubbles: Your #838

You asked about the quick changeover among the Popes between 530 and 555. I was curious, too, so I looked it up.

Boniface was aged, but took an active interest in the western and easern churches before he died.

John was the first to change his name from his given name to a papal name. He had a good papacy, but just died.

Agapetus became ill and died.

Silverius was unlawfully arrested and sent to an island prison where he received harsh treatment and when he was finally exonerated and brought back to Rome, he died as a result of the bad treatment.

Virgilius went to Constantinople as a Pope, and on the way back to Rome he died.

This was a period when Justinian and an Empress Theodora became involved with the Church and Papacy a lot. Also the birth dates of these Popes were unknown. They could have been pretty old to begin with. Boniface was old as his history tells us.

In the Supreme Court decision on the Ten Commandments Justice Souter commented that Moses as seen on the ceiling of the Supreme Court is a lawgiver and not a religious person. What do you make of that? What happens when Muslims request a monument for Mohammad, the Lawgiver? Watching our government in action today is like watching a soap opera.

Robby, commentary on our local radio said the U.S. Supreme Court ruling was that it is permissible to display the Ten Commandments if they are being shown as an example of art but not for religious purposes.

Thanks, MeriJo. I suppose that they were chosen that old so that if they were too extreme they would not last long? **Grin**

Justin: no comment from me, - wiser! Bubble

Back to Medieval France -- Durant comments about Charlemagne --
"In truth Charlemagne had always loved administration more than war and had taken to the field to force some unity of government and faith upon a Western Europe torn for centuries past by conflicts of tribe and creed.
"He had now brought under his rule all the peoples between the Vistula and the Atlantic, between the Baltic and Pyrenees, with nearly all of Italy and much of the Balkans. How could one man competently govern so vast and varied a realm? He was strong enough in body and nerves to bear a thousand responsibilities, perils, and crises, even to his sons' plotting to kill him. He had in him the blood or teaching of the wise and cautious Pepin III, and of the ruthless Charles Martel, and was something of a hammer himself.
"He extended their power, guarded it with firm military organization, propped it with religious sanction and ritual. He could vision large purposes and could will the means as well as wish the ends.
"He could lead an army, persuade an assembly, humor the nobility, dominate the clergy, rule a harem.
"He made military service a condition of owning more than a pittance of property and thereby founded martial morale on the defense and extension of one's land. Every freeman, at the call to arms, had to report in full equipment to the local count and every noble was responsible for the military fitness of his constituents. The structure of the state rested on this organized force, supported by every available psychological factor in the sanctity of anointed majesty, the ceremonial splendor of the imperial presence, and the tradition of obedience to established rule.
"Around the king gathered a court of administrative nobles and clergymen -- the seneschal or head of the palace, the 'court palatine' or chief justice, the 'palsgraves' or judges of the palace court and a hundred scholars, servants, and clerks.
"The sense of public participation in the government was furthered by semiannual assemblies of armed property owners, gathered, as military or other convenience might dictate at Worms, Valenciennes, Aachen, Geneva, Paderborn -- usually in the open air.
"At such assemblies the king submitted to smaller groups of nobles or bishops his proposals for legislation. They considered them and returned them to him with suggestions. He formulated the capitula, or chapters of legislation and presented these to the multitude for their shouted approval. Rarely the assembly voiced disapproval with a collective grunt or moan.
"Hincmar, Archbishop of Reims, has transmitted an intimate picture of Charles at one of these gatherings 'saluting the men of most note, conversing with those whom he seldom saw, showing a tender interest towad the elders, and disporting himself with the young.'
"At these meetings each provincial bishop and administrator was required to report to the King any significant event in his locality since the previous convocation. Says Hincmar:-'The King wished to know whether in any part or corner of the Kingdom the people were restless and the cause thereof.' Sometimes (continuing the old Roman institution of inquisitio) the representatives of the King would summon leading citizens to inquire and give under oath a 'true statement' (veredictum) as to the taxable wealth, the state of public order, the existence of crimes or criminals, in the district visited.
"In the ninth century, in Frank lands, the verdict of a jurata, or sworn group of inquiriers was used to decide many local issues of land ownership or criminal guilt.
"Out of the jurata, through Norman and English developments, would come the jury system of modern times."
What a man!!

Robby

Of all the bodies of government; this is the one that scares me the most. The Supreme Court plays its gyrosopic role by pulling the other branches of government back to more conservative directions when they go too far. Individual justices seem to be fighting a force greater than logic or even justice. I happen to believe particially in this decision, but I have to wonder that when we are a land of many different individuals whether or not we can please everyone. The danger in Supreme Court decisions comes when they reflect the mood of the country rather than an interpretation of our Constitution for the individual irregardless of race, sex, or sexual orientation.

lost me back in 2000 when they interfered with the settlement of the Florida vote counting and set an impossible two hour schedule for it to end. I was shocked and now am not only totally disallusioned but feeling MEAN every time I see reference to them. . . Claire

Justice O'Connor said,"Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?

Well said, Sandra.

robby: responding to #863

Here I am slower than molasses in January to comment on Charlemagne:

He was indeed, a great man, and ruler, but he entered into his office, after Pepin had prepared the way.

I always wondered why the playwright chose Pepin over Charlemagne in writing his musical for Broadway. Pepin laid the foundation for Frankish power. Here, perhaps was the example that Charlemagne followed and upon which he improved.

I remember very little about Charlemagne from school except that he established the Holy Roman Empire and for many years his descendants led a powerful entity.

It is good that he straightened everything out, but I had a bad feeling about his beheading so many people who wouldn't be baptized. This must have been the way of the times then, but, wouldn't it have been more exemplary to allow them to practice their own beliefs in peace? In this he would have been ahead of his time.

I do not mean to be facetious here nor to minimize, but one can buy very delicious imported pfefferneuse cookies around Christmas time from Aachen. They are available in our local supermarkets.

Justin and Bubble:

Thank you for your post, Justin, about the Carolingian architecture in Aachen, and Bubbles, thank you for your links.

There is something very comforting about order and symmetry in architecture, I think. New church architecture is taking on a more expanded space for the congregants and almost a complete disappearance of the sanctuary (space around the altar) I don't know about this new trend.

There is an imposing statue of Charlemagne in the close(?) of the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris. He is shown astride his horse in a very solid way - his leadership is unmistakeable as the sculptor portrays him - although the metal forming the statute has turned green here and there. He is holding a staff, and wearing a very heavy-looking, kingly crown.

More on Charlemagne:

The pass at Roncevalles is very famous - and not just for the Song of Roland, but it served as a protection for the Basques who for years protected entry into their land at this pass.

This past year while I have been limited in moving here and there, I read, "The Basque History of the World." I didn't really have a particular interest in the area, but my son knew I liked the writings of Mark Kurlansky by whom this history is written. He bought the book for me.

About Roncevalles: After centuries of obscurity, the epic poem titled La Chanson de Roland, became a classic of French Literature. Charlemagne marched his men through the Roncevalles Pass and just as the last of his men were climbing out of the pine forest to the narrow rocky port, leaving Charlemagne's nephew, Roland, to hold the pass, the Muslims attacked. Roland fought valiantly with his great sword, but the Franks had been betrayed to the Muslims by Ganelon, a traitor from their own ranks ... Roland died in the Pass, saving Europe from that fate-worse-than-death, the Muslims.

But, the truth is very different. The real battle had taken place three centuries earlier, in 778. From the opening lines_"King Charles, the Great, our Emperor, has stayed in Spain for seven years"_the poem is historically wrong.

Charlemagne had only spent a few months in Spain. and the ones betrayed were not the French but the Muslims. There was no Ganelon, but there was a Suleiman, a Muslim who was feuding with the emir in Cordoba over control of the Ebro Valley. In 777, Suleiman, wishing to take the Ebro away from the emir's control, had crossed the Pyrenees to offer Charlemagne a list of cities above the great river that he had arranged to have fall to the Franks without a fight. Seeing an opportunity, Charlemagne crossed into Spain from the Mediterranean side, the old Visigoth path of conquest. He was able to take Girona, Barcelona, and Huesca with almost no resistance. But in Zaragoza on the Ebro, the Muslim commander did not follow the plan, instead defending the city. Charlemagne decide to forgo Zaragoza and return to France. It was now, August and he had been in Spain only about four months. On his way back, he chose to attack Pamplona, destroy its walls, and loot the town. In so doing he enraged not the Muslims, but the Basques.

Charlemagne never recorded the encounter with the Basques on August 15, 778. It was to be the only defeat Charlemagne's army ever suffered in his long military career.

The first record of the battle was written in 829, after the death of Charlemagne, and states that the French army, although far larger was defeated by the Basques.

Shortened this because it would be too long. I do recommend the book of this Basque History. Mark Kurlansky writes very well. As a foreign correspondent, he had lived among the Basques, and returns there every year since.

"The empire was divided into counties, each governed in spiritual matters by a bishop or archbishop and in secular affairs by a comes (companion - of the king) or count.
"A local assembly of landholders convened twice or thrice a year in each provincial capital to pass upon the government of the region and serve as a provincial court of appeals. The dangerous frontier counties, or marches, had special governors -- graf margrave, or markherzog. Roland of Roncesvalles, for example, was governor of the Breton march.
"All local administration was subject to missi dominici -- 'emissaries of the master' -- sent by Charlemagne to convey his wishes to local officials -- to review thsir actions, judgments, and accounts -- to check bribery, extortion, nepotism, and exploitation -- to receive complaints and remedy wrongs -- to protect 'the Church, the poor, and wards and widows, and the whole people' from malfeasance or tyranny, and to report to the King the condition of the realm.
"The Capitulare missorum establishing these emissaries was a Magna Carta for the people, four centuries before England's Magna Carta for the aristocracy. That this capitulary meant what it said appears from the case of the duke of Istria who, being accused by the missi of divers injustics and extortions, was forced by the King to restore his thievings, compensate every wronged man, puyblicly confess his crimes, and give security against their repetition.
"Barring his wars, Charlemagne's was the most just and enlightened government that Europe had known since theodoric the goth."
The first Magna Carta?

Robby

The CAPITULARIES of Charlemagne.

Robby

See Charlemagne statue outside Notre Dame in Paris here

http://www.cimoli.com/pictures/paris/index.htm

http://www.culturalresources.com/Char.html

"The xixty-five capitularies that remain of Charlemagne's legislation are among the most interesting bodies of medieval law.
"They were not in organized system but rather the extension and application of previous 'barbarian' codes to new occasion or need. In some particulars they were less enlightened than the laws of King Liutprand of Lombardy.
"They kept the old wergild, ordeals, trial by combat, and punishment by mutilation, and decreed death for relapse into paganism or for eating meat in Lent -- although here the priest was allowed to soften the penalty.
"Nor were all these capitularies laws. Some were answers to inquiries, some were questions addressed by Charlemagne to officials, some were moral counsels. Said one article:-'It is necessary that every man should seek to the best of his strength and ability to serve God and walk in the way of His precepts for the Lord emperor cannot watch over every man in personal discipline.'
"Several articles struggled to bring more order into the sexual and marital relations of the people.
"Not all these counsels were obeyed but there runs through the capitularies a conscientious effort to transform barbarism into civilization.
"Charlemagne legislated for agriculture, industry, finance, education, and religion as well as for government and morals.
"His reign fell into a period when the economy of southern France and Italy was at low ebb through the control of the Mediterranean by the Saracens. Said Ibn Khaldun:-'The Christians could no longer float a plank upon the sea.'
"The whole structure of commercial relations between Western Europe and Africa and the Levant was disturbed. Only the Jews -- whom Charlemagne sedulously protected for this reason -- connected the now hostile halves of what under Rome had been a united economic world. Commerce survived in Slavic and Byzantine Europe and in the Teutonic north.
"The English Channel and the North Sea were alive with trade. But this too would be disordered, even before Charlemagne's death, by Norse piracy and raids. Vikings on the north and Moslems on the south almost closed the ports of France and made her an inland agricultural stte. The mercantile middle class declined, leving no group to compete with the rural aristocrcy.
"French feudalism was promoted by Charlemagne's land grants and by the triumphs of Islam."
Quote by Durant in Heading above:--"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

Robby

Is THIS PERSON a modern Charlemagne?

Robby

As maire of Toulouse he was adequate, but people in France doubt that he has the scope to shape the future.

I don't see a "Charlemagne with a vision" anywhere at present. I might be blind.

Thanks to Charlemagne the world was developing law with a focus on justice for people in general. It is interesting to see how necessary small beginnings are before developing in the mind of a human being the way things should be expressed and recorded for the future good of humanity.

I do not see a sparkling political figure on the horizon either.

I have been watching and participating in American politics since Herbert Hoover was President and I can honestly say that I have encountered only one or two Presidents who had the mental ingredients necessary to adequately address the problems of the office and one of them had difficuly controlling his libido. Charlemagne was great because he was an initiator. Some men achieve greatness in reaction. Jefferson was an initiator, Truman was an initiator. Roosevelt was an initiator. Lincoln was a reactor.

Before we leave Charlemagne, I'd like to add a note.

Back when, long long ago in history class (a subjct I loved), we knew him as Karl der Grosse and memorized the important deeds and dates of his life. Among them the year 800 AD when he was crowned as Holy Roman Emperor by Pope Leo III. at St. Peter's in Rome. He died in 814. On the margin of my old history book of that era I wrote "ein Krieger, Christ und Reformator" = a warrior, Christian and reformer.

Durant seems to race through the era of the Carolingians when we have barely digested the Merovingians. He did linger, deservedly, on Charlemagne.

Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle to the French) is in the region of Nordrhein Westfalen (North Rhine Westphalia). Charlemagne was known as "the great" even during his lifetime; he was of German blood and tongue, and the Germans consider him uniquely their own.

P.S. I appreciated the excerpt from BUBBLE's history book in a recent post; clear and to the point.

A Senior Netter emailed the following message to Marcie, Director of Education. Can anyone here help find the answer for this person?

"I have found a reference to Will Durant's book "·History of Civilization" but cannot trace the paragraph anywhere in that book. Could you please copy me that whole paragraph? ---Story of Civilization ~ by Will & Ariel Durant ~ Nonfiction ... Caesar once rode by carriage 800 miles in eight days. Messengers bearing the news of Nero's death to Galba in Spain covered 332 miles in 36 hours. ...

"Charlemagne struggled to protect a free peasantry against spreading serfdom but the power of the nobles and the force of circumstance frustrated him.
"Even slavery grew for a time as a result of the Carolingian wars against pagan tribes. The King's own estates, periodically extended by confiscation, gifts, intestate reversions, and reclamation, were the chief source of the royal revenue.
"For the care of these lands he issued a Capitulare de villis astonishingly detailed and revealing his careful scrutiny of all state income and expense. Forests, wastelands, highways, ports, and all mineral subsoil resources were the property of the state. Every encouragement was a given to such commerce as survived, the fairs were protected, weights and measures and prices were regulated, tolls were moderated, speculation in futures was checked, roads and bridges were built or repaired, a great span was thrown across the Rhine at Mainz, waterways were kept open and a canal was planned to connect the Rhine and the Danube, and thereby the North with the Black Sea.
"A stable currency was maintained, but the scarcity of gold in France and the decline of trade led to the replacement of Constantine's gold solidus with the silver ound."

Robby

RobbyThat paragraph can be found in Caesar & Christ, page 323 under paragraph headed The Carriers. Does he want me to quote the whole paragraph ? +++ Trevor

I'll do so anyway....

From Caesar to Commodus wheeled vehicles were forbidden in Rome by day; people then walked or were carried in slave-born chairs or litters. For longer distances they travelled on horseback or in horse-drawn carriages or chariots.

Travel by public stagecoach averaged some sixty miles a day. Caesar once rode by carriage 800 miles in eight days; ( man he must have had a sore backside !) messengers bearing the news of Nero's death to Galba in Spain covered 332 miles in thirty-six hours; Tiberius, hurrying day and night, rode in three days 600 miles to stand beside his dying brother.

The public post, by carriage or horse at all hours, averaged one hundred miles a day. Augustus had modeled it on the persian system, as indespensable to imperial administration. It was called cursus publicus as serving the res publica, or commonwealth, by carrying official correspondence.

And so on ....... ++++ Trevor

Thank you so very much, Trevor. I don't know how you did it but you came through with flying colors and so quickly! I have passed that info to Marcie. I am sure that the person who requested it will be most grateful. I have suggested that he/she might be interested in joining us.

Robby

Durant continues about Charlemagne.
"The energy and solicitude of the King reached into every sphere of life.
"He gave to the four winds the names they bear today.
"He established a system of poor relief, taxed the nobles and the clergy to pay its costs, and then made mendicancy a crime.
"Appalled by the illiteracy of his time when hardly any but ecclesiastics could read, and by the lack of education among the lower clergy, he called in foreign scholars to restore the schools of France. Paul the Deacon was lured from Monte Cassino, and Aleuin from York (782) to teach the school that Charlemagne organized in the royal palace at Aachen.
"Alcuin (735-804) was a Saxon, born near York, and educated in the cathedral school that Bishop Egbert had founded there. In the eighth century Britain and Ireland were culturally ahead of France.
"When King Offa of Mercia sent Alcuin on a mission to Charlemagne, the latter begged the scholar to remain. Alcuin, glad to be out of England when the Danes were 'laying it desolate, and dishonoring the monasteries with adultery,' consented to stay. He sent to England and elsewhere for books and teachers and soon the palace school was an active center of study of the revision and copying of manuscripts and of an educational reform that spread throughout the realm.
"Among the pupils were Charlesmagne, his wife Liutgard, his sons, his daughter Gisela, his secretary Eginhard, a nun, and many more. Charlemagne was the most eager of all. He seized upon learning as he had absorbed states. He studied rhetoric, dialectic, astronomy. He made heroic efforts to write, says Eginhard, 'and used to keep tablets under his pillow in order that at leisure hours he might accustom his hand to form the letters. But as he began these efforts so late in life, they met with ill success.'
"He studied Latin furiously but continud to speak German at his court. He compiled a German grammar and collected specimens of early Germany poetry.
"When Alcuin, after eight years in the palace school, pled for a less exciting environment, Charlemagne reluctantly made him Abbot of Tours (706). There Alcuin spurred the monks to make fairer and more accurate copies of the Vulgate of Jerome, the Latin Fathers, and the Latin classics. Other monasteries imitated the example. Many of our best classical texts have come down to us from these monastic scriptoria of the ninth century. Practically all extant Latin poetry except Carullus, Tibullus, and Propertius, and nearly all extant Latin prose except Varro, Tacitus, and Apuleius were preserved for us by the monks of the Crolingian age.
"Many of the Caroline manuscripts were handomely illuminated by the patient art of the monks. To this 'Palace School' of illumination belonged the 'Vienna' Gospels on which the later German emperors took their coronation oath."
Amazing what change can be made in a nation if the leader sets an example.

Robby

looking for that quote of Durant, I found these about Durant.

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/w/will_durant.html

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Will_Durant

and then this: http://www.chronique.com/Library/MedHistory/charlemagne.htm

Early translations of the Vulgate, (to make public) Septuagint and INTERESTING MAPS of some of its location in its early history.

Éloïse

Bubble: great links. We have gotten so used to Durant's pithiness, we almost don't see it.

Bubble:

Thank you for those links.

Eloise:

A very good reference re the Bible - Thank you.

My Goodness! I'm learning so much and at this old age, too. Wonderful experience!

Durant continues about Charlemagne.

"He gave to the four winds the names they bear today."

I presume this means the names 'East, West, North, South? It was noticed long before Charlemagne that celestial objects rose over the eastern horizon, and set in the West, etc. So it must have been common to refer to the winds according to the directions they came from, as East or West etc. long before Charlemagne's day. Surely it can not be claimed that he was the first to notice an obvious connection between geographical direction, and a system of naming the winds ?+++ Trevor

How about this, Trevor?

Although a conveniently simple arrangement, the problem nonetheless remained of what name to give to all the intermediate winds, or directions. In the time of Charlemagne the Great (AD 768-814), Frankish and Flemish mariners in the North had a different system of direction naming. They used the Teutonic monosyllabic words of Nord, Est, Sund and Oëst (North, East, South, and West) for the four cardinal points, and designated the remaining intermediate directions with simple compounds of these four words. This nomenclature was adopted for the standard directional schema, and is still in use throughout the world. It was supplemented in the nineteenth century by the addition of a circle marked in degree increments

Robby

"In 787 Charlemagne issued to all the bishops and abbots of Francia an historic Capitulare de litteris colendis, or directive on the study of letters.

"It reproached ecclesiastics for 'uncouth language' and 'interred tongues' and exhorted every cathedral and monastery to establish schools where clergy and laity alike might learn to read and write.

"A further capitulary of 789 urged the directors of these schools to 'take care to make no difference between the sons of serfs and of freemen so that they might come and sit on the same benches to study grammar, music, and arithmetic.'

"A capitulary of 805 provided for medical education and another condemned medical superstitions.

"That his appeals were not fruitless appears from the many cathedral or monastic schools that now sprang up in France and western Germany. Theodulf, Bishop of Orleans, organized schools in every parish of his diocese, welcomed all children to them, and forbade the priest instructors to take any fees. This is the first instance in history of free and general education.

"Important schools, nearly all attached to monasteries, rose in the ninth century at Tours, Auxerre, Pavia, St. Gall, Eulda, Ghent, and elsewhere.

"To meet the demand for teachers Charlemagne imported scholars from Ireland, Britain, and Italy. Out of these schools were to come the universities of Europe."

The French serfs in the ninth century had greater educational opportunities than the American slaves in the early 19th century.

Robby

the naming of the directions reminds me of the naming of Uranus or was it Saturn's moons, the job of a friend of mine, a physicist who worked for NASA in its upper echelons, was asked to do the "nomenclature? for these astral bodies. His problem was complicated by the possibility of offending the Russians, so he settled for Greek mythology naming some of them after the muses. What a waste of a brilliant mind. . . . Claire

Trevor:

http://www.soilsci.ndsu.nodak.edu/Enz/ss217/winds.html

http://ggweather.com/winds.html

and a quizz about weather
http://www.quia.com/hm/9133.html

Metamorphoses (Kline) Index, the Ovid Collection, Univ. of Virginia...
Bk IV:1-30. A name for Bacchus from the wild cries ... The East Wind. Auster is the South Wind, Zephyrus the West Wind, and Boreas is the North...
http://etext.virginia.edu/latin/ovid/trans/MetindexEFGHI.htm

Winsum: Art was not as widely disseminated as today. For learning it as a "career" , it was done in the guilds (later?) or by private teaching with a painter, a sculptor or other crafters.

I remember an old peasant in Switzerland who had a penknife in his pocket always. As soon as he sat down to rest he would take a twig from a nearby bush or tree and start scupting very realistic animals. He never had an art lesson in his life.

Any similarity between the philosophy of THIS SCHOOL and Charlemagne's approach to education?

Robby

I wonder if the leaders of THIS NATION have been reading about Charlemagne and his approach to education.

Robby

I am in awe... Anyone of us who has any influence, any contacts, should encourage those who have the means of creating/following that example - schools for any kind of minority, for any kind of disadvantaged students.

There is such a need for this type of establishment, for such dedicated teaching. We were a huge school at home, but the teachers were dedicated and the total staff knew each student individually and was aware of the total history of each one. Only in later years do I realize how lucky we were.

Education lessened in the aftermath of the fall of the Roman Empire and I was surprised that England, because of its geographical location was less affected, here is a different view of: EDUCATION IN THE DARK AGES

WOW! No posts????? Time seems to have stopped. - not for 100 years I hope!

Have a great 4th of July everyone! Bubble

"We must not overestimate the intellectual quality of the age.
"This scholastic resurrection was the awakening of children rather than the maturity of such cultures as then existed in Constantinople, Baghdad and Cordova. It did not produce any great writers.
"The formal compositions of Alcuin are stiflingly dull. Only his letters and occasional verses show him as no pompous pedant but a kindly soul who could reconcile happiness with piety. Many men wrote poetry in this short-lived renaissance and the poems of Theodulf are pleasant enough in their minor way.
"But the only lasting composition of that Gallic age was the brief and simple biography of Charlemagne by Enginhard. It follows the plan of Suertonius' Lives of the Caesars and even snatches passages therefrom to apply to Charlemagne.
"But all is forgotten to an author who modestly describes himseslf as 'a barbarian, very little versed in the Roman tongue.' He must have been a man of talent nevertheless for Charlemagne made him royal steward and tresurer and intimate friend and chose him to supervise, perhaps to design, much of the architecture of this creative reign.
"Palaces were built for the Emperor at Ingelheim and Nijmegen. At Aachen, his favorite capital, he raised the famous palace and chapel that survived a thousand dangers to crumble under the shells and bombs of the Second World War.
"The unknown architects modeled its plan on the church of San Vitale at Ravenna which owed its form to Byzantine and Syrian exemplars. The result was an Oriental cathedral stranded in the West. The octagonal structure was surmounted by a circular dome. The interior was divided by a circular two-storied colonnade and was 'adorned with gold and silver and lamps, railings and doors of solid bronze, columns and cruciles brought from Rome and Ravenna' and a famous mosaic in the dome.
"Charlemagne was profusely generous to the Church.
"At the same time he made himself her master and used her doctrines and personnel as instruments of education and government. Much of his correespondence was about religion. He hurled scriptural quotations at corrupt officials or worldly clerics. The intensity of his utterance forbids suspicion that his piety was a political pose. He sent money to distresseed Christians in foreign lands and in his negotiations with Moslem rulers he insisted on fair treatment of their Christian population.
"Bishops played a leading part in his councils, assemblies and administration but he looked upon them, however reverently, as his agents under God. he did not hestiate to command them, even in matters of doctrine or morals. He denounced image worship while the popes were defending it. He required from every priest, a written description of how baptism was administered in his parish, sent the popes directives as numerous as his gifts, suppressed insubordination in monasteries and ordered a strict watch on convents to prevent 'whoring, drunkenness, and covetousness' among the nuns.
"In a capitulary of 811 he asked the clergy what they mant by professing to renounce the world when 'we see' some of them 'laboring day by day, by all sorts of means, to augment their possessions, now making use, for this purpose, of menaces of enternal flames, now of promises of eternal beatitude, despoiling simple-minded people of their property in the name of God or some saint, to the infinite prejudice of their lawful heirs.' Nevertheless he allowed the clergy their own courts, decreed that a tithe or tenth of all produce of the land should be turned over to the Church, gave the clergy control of marriages and wills and himself bequeathed two thirds of his estates to the bishoprics of his realm.
"But he required the bishops now and then to make substantial 'gifts' to help meet the expenses of the government."
Charlemagne appears to be man who knew who and what he was and where he was headed. Your comments, please?

Robby

Today is Mal's birthday.

What is a LEADER? What is your theory of leadership?

Robby

Can I take an unscientific shot at it Robby? I read the link about the different approach to leadership.

If I want to put myself in the context of this discussion I have to make comparisons between ancient leaders and current ones. On the political scene, I rate the current US President as a strong leader even if his ideas are rejected by perhaps half of all Americans. Leaders also are Heads of State currently in the news in England, France, Germany and Russia. They might be cruel, irksome, warlike and dictators, but still people vote for them and even revere them. The reasons they do is irrelevant to me, because if they lead millions, often billions they are strong leaders.

On the religious side, I would say that those who influence their flock to a great extent are few, but they are just as powerful, sometimes more, because they also influence the Heads of State in the governmment of their country.

There are very few women Heads of State in the West. It indicates to me that women don't have what men have to become Heads of State because of their natural tendency to promote harmony, first within the family then in the world and that is NOT what men want. Men love fighting in a war, they feel comfortable in confrontation with the enemy and they want the passion that war provides them with.

I know that this is a broad statement and there are several other definition of what it is to be a leader but it would take too long to elaborate and I have already said too much.

Éloïse

A leader is someone who can direct others in the direction he wants while letting them think it is their own choice to start with. A leader knows how to use talents around and can delegate power without fears. A leader is not confrontational and manage to lead harmoniously.

A comment about Charlemagne:

There may be a misunderstanding here, but popes would never tolerate image worship even if the image is one of a holy person. Images are never worshiped, and have never been by the Church. They are mere representations much as a photograph of a loved one is.

Everyone have a Happy Fourth of July!

I hope it is cooler where you are than where I am. We are having 100 degrees plus in the San Joaquin Valley of California!

Oliver Wendell Holmes once said, "The Constiution allows freedom of thought, not only for the thought that we agree with, but for the thought that we hate." That to me is an example of true leadership.

In his book, "Common Law," he said: "...that law is not static; it's evolutionary, Darwinian. Natural selection plays a part in the law as it does in the structure of the horse, or the elephant. Law responds to the needs of society and is constantly developing."

To me a true leader is one who responds to the needs of society and is constantly growing or developing his ideals. I don't see this in our political leaders today.

people achieve with what they have to contribute a common desired goal. He is not a guide. He represents the will of the group as well as possible without putting his own stamp on the outcome

I would assume that a Supreme Court Justice is not considered a leader as he/she is one of nine. But how about the Chief Justice? Would a Chief Justice need leadership qualities? If so, how different would these qualities be from those needed by a President?
How about the leadership needed in guiding the nation in its morals and values? This ARTICLE may help to stimulate your thinking. No political comments please.

Robby

Here are the duties of the CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE UNITED STATES.

Robby

HIs duties are clerical and cosmetic. His decisions bear his own personal bias. . . over and above the minority opinion .

"* If the Chief Justice is in the majority on a Supreme Court case, he or she may decide to write the Opinion of the Court, or may assign it to an associate justice of his or her choice."

Claire

Justice William O. Douglas ranked EARL WARREN with John Marshall and Charles Evans Hughes 'as our three greatest Chief Justices."
Would you consider him a leader?

Robby

Is that a general question? I can't answer it without knowing a great deal more. but the position itself doesn't require it. . . Claire

Robby, I remember the Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" discussion a few years back and what he said about leaders which rang so true in this ARTICLE.

That's a powerful article, Eloise!! How true! And I remember vividly that period of time when we went day by day through deTocqueville's "Democracy in America."

Robby

they asked for feedback, but the process is confusing. Anyhow, this is what I gave them.

give us a leader? your followers are here, waiting, believing anything they are told. there are voices in protest but none step forward to truly care -- to care enough to take responsibility with pure purpose. It's hard to hold onto a democracy. Everyone is responsible, everyone votes, only it's not happening is it.

Claire

He also said that a population chooses a leader when there is a "real" crisis and push him forward in front. What we have now is just the preview of a crisis, in the meantime we sit and wait and enjoy our life style. I think that we can't prevent the inevitable to happen, people can't foresee the future or don't care as you said Claire. The pendulum swings back and forth between democracy and autocracy, America has enjoyed it's freedom longer than any other nation before because of its geographic location in part but for how long we will have it, I don't know.

ROBBY, I am not sure we can answer your question about leadership in general terms, i.e. in the abstract, without reflecting on the political issues of the day and the potential for a crisis.

The reality is that it is not the population who is going to decide in this case. With due respect I submit that criteria other than leadership will come into play here, like partisanship and team-playing, to mention only two.
This may be too political already and I will stop right there.

go ahead. I didn't see that as political and with your good manners I wouldn't mind if it were. . . (smiles) Claire

Is THIS MAN a leader?

Robby

How about THIS MAN?

Robby

Tutu and Mandela appear to be leaders. Hussein appears to be a despot.

A despot can't be a leader? None of the cruel Roman emperors were leaders? Ghengis Khan was not a leader? Hitler was not a leader?

Robby

What is a leader? That was the question, I think. It is one to which I have given much thought at different times in my life and I have concluded, as simple as it sounds, that a leader is one who leads. It is not a manager, it is not a general, it is not a president. It is one who, when faced with a problem (or a goal), assumes personal responsibility for solving the problem.He/she formulates a tentative solution and undertakes to implement the solution. A leader is one who leads.

I once picked a man to head a project because he recognized the cause of a delay in our lunch line at our cafeteria and who stepped in to ease the problem. The rest of us remained in line waiting for someone in the cafeteria to solve the problem. I thought at the time," This guy is a leader" and so he was.

A leader does not always do what everyone likes. Sometimes he is downright evil. Housein was a leader. Hitler was a leader. Edison was a leader. He is the guy who thinks he knows how to solve the problem. Castro is a leader. Roosevelt was leader.

A leader may not be the guy or gal who is out in front of the crowd. The leader may be using him because he has carisma. I thought that was the case with Junior and his V.P. I am not very certain about that today.

Jhonsons dictionary in use by the supreme court today.

here

Claire

robby:

A despot, a tyrant, or a powerful personality, may not be a leader. People do not follow this person willingly and with confidence, but wih fear and trepidation.

A leader is one who generates confidence in a group, and in offering examples of what is needed, has willing followers, workers and may even influence and encourage others to lead with him/her.

Justin, "The leader may be using him because he has charisma." How can a leader have a following if he uses somebody else to do his job and just because he has charisma would not convince a following? I believe it takes more than just charisma to lead, most of all it takes excellent rhetoric, words and delivery that can move a crowd to take action, or if he doesn't have that, he has a gift for winning battles, such as Napoleon. All good leaders I can think of gave good speeches, stirred emotions and had an mighty purpose such as conquering fertile territory, or land with precious minerals such as gold and OIL.

MeriJo, I believe that there are despotic or tyranic, even evil leaders. If one has a huge following, he is a leader perhaps people like a leader who is feared because they might feel protected, strange as it may seem.

ROBBY, I understand your basic question and the respondents' answers are helpful, especially #940 and #949, and I agree with both.

A leader leads , as Justin has said. The term is all inclusive, but there are, I believe, quantitative degrees. Perhaps we need to look at the attributes of leadership again.

If we agree that Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Nelson Mandela, Saddam Hussein, Hitler (and Benito Mussolini, too) are considered leaders, what characteristic(s) do they SHARE that makes them such?

What MAKES a leader? we might ask.
Are all leaders men?
Can we consider Gloria Steinem and the late Bella Abzug prominent leaders of the feminist movement?

Isn't one of the tasks of a leader to set goals and show the followers a path to follow?

In checking my post Ijust saw Éloïse's and agree with that also.

A well known leader may be nothing more than a marionette....basking in the spotlight. Some one else must pull the strings.

Sun

There are people who are called "leaders" but are not such. How about a lieutenant or a captain in an army.One calls them leader. Are they? I don't think so. They are order takers who direct the movement of a platoon or a company in following the orders. There are two things we are associating with a "leader" that may be the result of leadership but are not necessary in a leader. One is a "following" ie; people who follow a leader. The presence of a following does not make one a leader nor do the tools one may employ in leading make one a leader. Public speaking for example may be a skill that some leaders exhibit but that skill does not make one a leader.

Think of a leader who had no following and was a stutterer. Thomas Edison was such a leader. Henry Ford was such a leader. His conversation was filled with four letter words and bigotry. What about problem solvers? Are they leaders? Edison and Ford solved problems. Is that what made them leaders? I don't think so. Hitler and Mussolini had loyal followers. Did that make them leaders? I don't think so. Then what is a leader?

A leader is someone (man or woman) who sees a problem, a goal or an opportunity and assumes the responsibility for solving the problem, achieving the goal or grasping the opportunity.. It is the assumption of responsibility that makes one a leader.

"It is the assumption of responsibility that makes one a leader. uh huh I think so too. but where is she/he?

Thank you for all those wonderful posts regarding leadership. Now let us return to Durant's comments about Charlemagne which led us to such discussions.
"Out of the intimate co-operation of Church and state came one of the most brilliant ideas in the history of statesmanship -- the transformation of Charlemagne's realm into a Holy Roman Empire that should have behind it all the prestige, sanctity and stability of both Imperial and papal Rome.
"The popes had long resented their territorial subordination to a Byzantium that gave them no protection and no security. they saw the increasing subjection of the patriarch to the emperor at Constantinople and feared for their own freedom.
"We do not know who conceived or arranged the plan of a papal coronation of Charlemagne as Roman emperor. Alcuin, Theodulf and others close to him had discussed its possibility. Perhaps the initiative lay with them, pehaps with the councilors of the popes.
"There were great difficulties in the way. The Greek monarch already had the title of Roman emperor and full historic right to that title. The Church had no recognized authority to convey or transfer the title. To give it to a rival of Byzantium might precipitate a gigantic war of Christian East against Christian West, leaving ruined Europe to a conquering Islam.
"It was of some help that Irene had seized the Greek throne (797). Now, some said, there was no Greek emperor and the field was open to any claimant. If the bold scheme could be carried through, there would again be a Roman emperor in the West. Latin Christianity would stand strong and unified against schismatic Byzantium and threatening Saracens and, by the awe and magic of the imperial name, barbarized Europe might reach back across centuries of darkness and inherit and Christianize the civilization and culture of the ancient world.
"On December 26, 797, Leo III was chosen Pope.
"The Roman populace did not like him. It accused him of various misdeeds. On April 25, 799, it attached him, maltreated him, and imprisoned him in a monastery. He escaped and fled for protection to Charlemagne at Paderborn.
"The King received him kindly and sent him back to Rome under armed escort and ordered the Pope and his accusors to appear before him there in the following year. On November 24, 800, Charlemagne entered the ancient capital in state. On December 1 an assembly of Franks and Romans agreed to drop the charges against Leo if he would deny them on solemn oath. He did and the way was cleared for a magnificent celebration of th Nativity.
"On Christmas Day as Charlemagne, in the chlamys and Sandals of a patricius Romanus, knelt before St. Peter's altar in prayer, Leo suddenly produced a jeweled crown and set it upon the King's head. The congregation, perhaps insructed before hand to act accoding to ancient ritual as the senatus populusque Romanus confirming a coronation, thrice cried out:-'Hail to Charles the Augustus, crowned by God the great and peace-bringing Emperor of the Romans!'
"The royal head was anointed with holy oil, the Pope saluted Charlemagne as Emperor and Augustus, and offered him the act of homage reserved since 476 for the Eastern emperor."
Was leadership demonstrated here? Who was the leader?

Robby

Well what have we got here? A woman ruler of the Byzantine Empire, but she met with powerful opposition because an Empress could not rule the Roman Empire.

"When Irene of Athens was crowned sole ruler of the Byzantine Empire in 797, she became the first woman ever to hold the throne of the old Roman Empire. The Byzantine Empire, also known as the East Roman Empire, was founded by Constantine I in 330. It was all that remained of the Roman Empire after Rome was sacked in 476. Irene ranks with Egyptian queen Hatshepsut and Russian empress Catherine the Great as a breaker of male-dominated dynasties. Her illegal claim to the throne allowed the Frank king Charlemagne to be crowned Roman emperor in the West. This coronation ended the Byzantine Empire's power in Europe and forever changed European history."

IRENE

Leo !!! could not gather his flock because he didn't have the gift of persuasion and strategy that is needed to be in power. He became pope because he had satisfied the requirements of the Bishops to head the Catholic church, not because he had fought in a war or been elected in office.

Charlemagne was the leader because as Justin said, he knew how to solve a problem. Granted the coast had been made clear for him when Irene was not recognized as Empress by the Greeks. He was a leader also because he ruled over millions of people and to strengthen his Empire, he managed to have Rome crown him Emperor, thus strengthening his crown by joining the church and the state.

After 16 days in the North Carolina Memorial Hospital in the UNC Medical Center in Chapel Hill, I was released too soon and spent 2 weeks FOMB (flat on my back) at home. I couldn't afford private nursing care, so I entered a nursing home just about five weeks ago. Today I am HOME FOR GOOD! (Or until or if I work up the courage to have this colostomy of mine reversed.) Thanks to good care and hard work by physio-therapists and me, I have been walking a little while holding on to parallel bars. There'll be at-home help from another physio-therapist, and I hope to be walking by myself soon.

Seldom in my life have I had such an illness and surgery that left me so weak. It's an uphill fight, but I seem to be making it.

I read close to 50 books from the first time I went home until today when I left the nursing home, about a book a day. There was a little library in the nursing home, and I was the busiest patron. I read a lot of books that dealt with death and some which talked about the marital infidelity of women these days. Two of the books I enjoyed the most were Snow Falling on Cedar by Guterson and The Living by Annie Dillard. The writing by these two fine story-tellers is superb and has a kind of magic to it I find hard to explain and impossible to describe.

Thanks to those of you who sent me notes and cards. I appreciate your thoughtfulness.

Thanks also to my daughter and friend, Dorian Smith, who was a hero during this time. She kept me alive in more ways than one, including bringing her laptop to the Hillcrest Convalescent Center in Durham, NC where I was, and keeping me alive in the Writers Exchange WREX discussion.

(I'm way, way behind in this S of C discussion, but will post from time to time. Mal's BACK, feisty as ever.)

Mal

WEEEEEEEEE, "Mal is Back fiesty as ever", we never though you would EVER lose that Mal, it't good to have you back. Keep getting better.

Éloïse

Welcome back Mal! You were missed! Glad to see you here. Bubble

Glad to have you back. I loved SNOW ON CEDARS too. an unusual subject and treatment thereof, So we're not done with leaders yet. What do yo think Mal. . . .Claire

Welcome home Mal! Did you know that all the great modern leaders of our time have managed to read a book a day!

Could our leaders also be visionaries? Was Charlemagne a visionary? How about Pope Leo? Or for that matter Irene of Athens? Did any of them see beyond their own realms?

I forgot to add a wish for you all to have a very happy and safe 4th of July. And as we watch our fireworks and hear the bells toll remember those who have and continue to give us the opportunity to: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all!

Mal:-Of course I'm pleased to see you back. Throughout your "vacation" we have placing Dorian's postings here so the SofC gang has been keeping up to date regarding your progress. I'm sure you'll have no trouble sneaking right in. If you can get someone to lift that heavy volume for you, we are on page 469.

Robby

Centuries may have passed since Charlemagne but the EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH is still fighting for its existence.

Robby

Does THIS illustrate leadership?

Robby

The real leader in this scheme to make Charles, Holy Roman Emperor is anonymous. He/she conceived the idea and assumed responsibility for promoting it. Without his conception and promotion there would have been nothing for Leo or Charles to undertake. This is what I meant by the real leader selecting someone with carisma to complete the project. Leo and Charles, recognizing that the scheme had merit, assumed the responsibility and took action. All three expressed leadership qualities but the primary leader is unknown.

Yeah, now that Mal is back, this site will really perk!!

I loved Snow Falling on Cedars too. Don't know that Annie Dillard, but have loved some of her others.

You mean, Joan, we haven't been perking?

Robby

Hey, we always perk. But when Mal's here, we double perk!!

As it begins to get dark and the time for fireworks begins, some folks here might want to first read these words of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE as a reminder why we have fireworks in the first place.

Robby

This year's Fourth of July celebration is in honor of Mal's return to SoC. The fireworks announce the return of our missing comrade. Welcome back Mal. You have been missed.

Yes, it is wonderful to know that Mal has 'Declared her Independence' from Hospitals and Nursing Homes and is back where she belongs.

Happy Fourth, Mal. Good to see you here.

Sun

you can hear them where I live and the sound took me back a couple a centuries for a minute or so to what it must have sounded like during the war for independence and the civil war and wars in europe and elsewhere as the battle comes into a city or residencial area. . . . very spooky.

Claire

We return to Durant.
"If we may believe Eginhard, Charlemagne told him that had he known Leo's intention to crown him, he would not have entered the church.
"Perhaps he had learned of the general plan but regretted the haste and circumstances of the execution. It may not have pleased him to receive the crown from a pope, opening the door to centuries of dispute as to the relative dignity and power of donor and recipient, and presumably he anticipated difficulties with Byzantium.
"He now sent frequent embassies and letters to Constnantinople seeking to heal the breach. For a long time he made no use of his new title. In 800 he offered marriage to Irene as a means of mutually legitimizing their dubious titles but Irene's fall from power shattered this elegant plan.
"To discourage any martial attack by Byzantium he arranged an entente with Haron al-Rashid who sealed their understanding by sending him some elephants and the keys to the Christian holy places in Jerusalem. The Eastern emperor, in retaliation, encouraged the emir of Cordova to renounce allegiance to Baghdad.
"Finally, in 812, the Geeek basileus recognized Charlemagne as emperor in return for Charlemagne's acknowledgment of Venice and soutern Italy as belonging to Byzantium.
"The coronation had results for a thousand years.
"It strengthened the papacy and the bishops by making civil authority derive from ecclesiastical conferment. Gregory VII and Innocent III would build a mightier Church on the events of 800 in Rome.
"It strengthened Charlemagne against baronial and other disaffection by making him a very vicar of God.
"It vastly advanced the theory of the divine right of kings.
"It contributed to the schism of Greek from Latin Christianity. The Greek Church did not relish subordination to a Roman Church allied with an empire rival to Byzantium.
"The fact that Charlemagne (as the Pope desired) continued to make Aachen, not Rome, his capital underlined the passage of political power from the Mediterranean to northern Europe, from the Latin peoples to the Teutons.
"Above all, the coronation established the Holy Roman Empire in fact, although not in theory. Charlemagne and his advisers conceived of his new authority as a revival of the old imperial power. Only with Otto I was the distinctively new character of the regime recognized.
"It became 'holy' only when Frederick Barbarosa introduce the word sacrium into his title in 1155.
"All in all, despite its threat to the liberty of the mind and the citizen, the Holy Roman Empire was a noble conception, a dream of security and peace, order and civilization restored in a world heroically won from barbarism, violence, and ignorance."
Major changes in history affecting even some of today's nations. Your comments, please?

Robby

I'm really tired of the Durants love affair with Charlemagne What's next?

Mal:

I recently joined this discussion and I, too, welcome you back. It's good to know you have made such good progress. Just keep on going!

Sincerely,

MeriJo

robby:

It is hard to know just which of those two men were the leaders, Leo III or Charlemagne. They were each strong personalities in different areas of political policy.

The creation of the Holy Roman Empire was a step toward creating a stronge Western Europe. The ideas of Charlemagne were seemingly more far-reaching and positive for the people in general than those of Leo III at the time. The papacy in Rome was still in the process of defining itself and its place in the world in view of the strong Eastern Church.

This was a point from which to begin further development of western European growth. At least, this is what I think may have happened.

I pick Leo as the leader. He took the initiative and formed a symbolic merger that brought political and theological dominance back to the west- a tremendous feat.

Justin:

Pulling out the crown for Charlemagne certainly was taking the initiative. In that respect, I agree with you.

Claire:-The GREEN quotes in the Heading answer your question.

Robby

They both got something out of that alliance. A corporate merger with equal partners.

"Behind Charlemagne's poise and majesty were passion and energy but harnessed to his aims by a clairvoyant intelligence.
"His vital force was not consumed by half a hundred campaigns. He gave himself also, with never aging enthusiasm to science, law, literature and theology. He fretted at leaving any part of the earth or any section of knowledge, unmastered or unexplored.
"In some ways he was mentally ingenuous. He scorned superstition and proscribed diviners and soothsayers but he accepted many mythical marvels and exaggerated the power of legislation to induce goodness or intelligence.
"This simplicity of soul had its fair side. There was in his thought and speech a directness and honesty seldom permitted to statesmanship.
"He could be ruthless when policy required and was especially cruel in his efforts to spread Christianity.
"Yet he was a man of great kindness, many charities, warm friendships and varied loves. He wept at the death of his sons, his daughter, and Pope Hadrian.
"In a poem Ad Carolum Regem Theodulf draws a pleasant picture of the Emperor at home. On his arrival from labors his children gather about him, son Charles takes off the father's cloak, son Louis his sword. His six daughters embrace him, bring him bread, wine, apples, flowers. The bishop comes in to bless the King's food. Alcuin is near to discuss letters with him. The diminutive Eginhard runs to and fro like an ant, bringing in enormous books.
"He was so fond of his daughters that he dissuaded them from marriage saying that he could not bear to be without them. They consoled themselves with unlicensed amours and bore several illegitimate children. Charlemagne accepted these accidents with good humor since he himself, following the custom of his predecessors, had four successive wives and five mistresses or concubines.
"His abounding vitality made him extremely sensitive to feminine charms. His women preferred a share in him to the monopoly of any other man. His harem bore him some eighteen children, of whom eight were legitimate.
"The ecclesiastics of the court and of Rome winked leniently at the Moslem morals of so Christian a king."
Do the clergy of today "wink" at any of the moral peccadillos of current day leaders?
Would you agree that statesmanship seldom permits directness and honesty?

Robby

Here is what was happening in AFRICA during the time of Charlemagne.

Robby

I don't think they wink at the peccadillos. The responsibility of the leaders actions remain with the leaders. There is no way of knowing whether or not the leaders are repentant except by their actions. So clergy leave the leaders to heaven to judge.

A statesman/woman can choose to be direct and honest. However, such behavior requires often a short response, and statesmen/women are inclined to elaborate upon their response extending it, which can be confusing to the reader or listener.

The above are my thoughts here.

robby:

Thanks for your link on Africa. Interesting about the Chinese venturing there.

ROBBY, if I have asked this question before, forgive me.
But I wonder, do Durant's books have a bibliography?

How and where did he glean the information on Charlemagne ? Durant was obviously impressed by Charlemagne.

(Also, if I may say, "Charlemagne" has the title "the Great" built right in. "Charlemagne the Great" is therefore redundant.)

I admit the word "harem" startled me.
That's when I began to wonder anew about Durant's sources. Those "peccadilloes" may have been a way of life, of course, and are historically well kown e.g. (inter alia) from the times of Louis XIV and XV and their respective mistresses. But that will come later, of course.

If we are still concerned with the aspect of leadership, Pope Leo III may well deserve further consideration - as does the (often fractious) relationship between the popes and the emperors after Charlemagne. I'm thinking here of Pope Gregory VII, Emperor Henry IV and the excommuicated emperor's journey to Canossa. Ever since, the mere mention of "Canossa" has expressed and exemplified the ultimate penance and humiliation - without further description thereof.

I don't have Durant's books but I recall that our history books, a lifetime ago, referred to the Holy Roman Empire that began with the Carolingians, as "das heilige römische Reich deutscher Nation", thus establishing a dynasty. Moreover, if memory serves, the term "holy" ("sacrum") was not added to the official title of the emperors until the reign of Otto , (912-73 AD.

Apologies for NOW bringing up something that has not been quoted yet.

My last post was incomplete and my attempt to edit it unsuccessful.

So let me quickly add that I meant Otto I., also named "Great". Th dates are correct.

Thank you.

I like Durant's qualifying statements. e.g."if we are to believe Ergnhard........" Not so absolute as we sometimes find historians to be today.

Traude S. your question re bibliography ;YES

The "Age of Faith" has a general bibliography followed by numbered notes referencing the sources. In all some 48 pages, of close type.

Durant was a professional historian, so what did you expect ? ++ Trevor

Do the clergy "wink" at leaders behaviors, or do they just recognize that they are human beings? I teach western civ and u.s. history at a community college and when you read 5000 years of history summarized in 350 pages of a textbook, the "philosophical" question of are human beings basically good or evil becomes very clear: greed, cruelty, vengence,dishonesty,self-absorption, a breaking of all the "moral laws" of all religions seems to be the norm. When we find leaders, or others, being generous, tolerant, kind, caring of the less privilieged, forgiving, it's an exception and seems to only come about by working against their human nature. It's especially disturbing when people who profess to be religious are acting in ways that their religions speak against. How "Christian" have Christians been throughout history? Aren't "religious wars" an oxymoron?........loved the accusation of "Moslem" behavior as opposed to "Christian" behavior in the last quote!!

The term "religious war" is not an oxymoron. War, vengence, punishment etc are essential parts of religion and especially so of Christianity. I grant, there are many people who think religion is a peaceful activity but that is wishful thinking and propaganda. War is built in to religious doctrine. The declaration " my god is the only true god" is sufficient for torture, pain, suffering and wilfull death to non adherents.

Mabel: Nice to hear from you once in a while. Durant crowded S of Civ into 11 volumes but even his rendition is subject to the license of selection.

Justin - apparently your right because most of the wars of the last 5000 yrs have been over religion. I just jumped into your discussion without introducing myself, my name is Jean. I'm reading the book and am going back to read all the interesting postings since you started last Sept. Thank you Robby for facilitating this, it sounds wonderful and enlightening.....jean

arts and letters coming up that's nice I look forward to it. claire

Jean:-I'm glad you "jumped in." Welcome!! From time to time someone will say "let's talk about something else besides greed, cruelty, vengeance, dishonesty, self-absorption, etc." and we find it necessary to answer that all Durant is doing is reflecting what he sees has been happening over the centuries.
If you have been following our discussion group, you know that our ground rule is simply courtesy and consideration toward each other. If we get on to the subject of religion, which obviously we do a lot in a volume entitled The Age of Faith, then we refrain from commenting on the faith of another participant or proselytizing our own.
The GREEN quotes in the Heading change periodically and indicate the section of the book we are currently discussing. Right now we are discussing Charlemagne and will soon be covering the Carolingian Decline.

Robby

"Charlemagne was now head of an empire far greater than the Byzantine, surpassed in the white man's world only by the realm of the Abbasid caliphate.
"But every extended frontier of empire or knowledge opens up new problems. Western Europe had tried to protect itself from the Germans by taking them into its civilization but now Germany had to be protected against the Norse and the Slavs. The Vikings had by 800 established a kingdom in Jutland and were raiding the Frisian coast.
"Charles hastened up from Rome, built fleets and forts on shores and rivers and stationed garrisons at danger points.
"In 810 the king of Jutland invaded Frisia and was repulsed. Shortly thereafter, if we may follow the chronicle of the Monk of St. Gall, Charlemagne, from his palace at Narbonne, was shocked to see Danish pirate vessels in the Gulf of Lyons.
"Perhaps because he foresaw, like Diocletian, that his overreaching empire needed quick defense at many points at once, he divided it in 806 among his three sons -- Pepin, Louis, and Charles. But Pepin died in 810, Charles in 811. Only Louis remained, so absorbed in piety as to seem unfit to govern a rough and treacherous world.
"Nevertheless, in 813, at a solemn ceremony, Louis was elevated from the rank of king to that of emperor and the old monarch uttered his nunc dimittis:-'Blessed be Thou, O Lord God, Who hast granted me the grace to see with my own eyes my son seated on my throne!'
"Four months later, wintering at Aachen, he was seized with a high fever and developed pleurisy. He tried to cure himself by taking only liquids. But after an illness of seven days he died, in the forty-seventh year of his reign and the seventy-second year of his life (814). He was buried under the dome of the cathedral at Aachen, dressed in his imperial robes.
"Soon all the world called him Carolus Magnus, Karl der Grosse, Charlemagne. In 1165, when time had washed away all memory of his mistresses, the Church which he had served so well enrolled him among the blessed."
Any comments about the effect that this great man had on the development of civilization?
Aside:-I "wintered" in Aachen (winter of 1944) and take my word for it, it is no place to spend a winter. Unfortunately I would not have chosen Rome either because that wonderful city was also in the throes of war but, unlike Aachen, was not destroyed.

Robby